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doc_100 | Project Manager: Hi Kate . {vocalsound} Okay , carry on .
Industrial Designer: Just just carry on . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright um this is the beginning of the third meeting , the conceptual design meeting . Um our agenda should be um that we're opening the meeting , I have {disfmarker} the minutes from the previous meeting are on the shared f drive at this point . Um and we should each have a presentation to make . Um we have certain decisions to make and we have forty minutes total . It's twenty five after two at the moment , so forty minutes is five after three , {vocalsound} um which I'll be keeping an eye on the clock for us . Okay . {vocalsound} Um there are the decisions we have to turn to , but we'll come back to them in a minute after I take us to the minutes of the previous meeting . Right um as we remember , I opened the meeting , the four of us were present , the meeting {disfmarker} the first meeting's minutes were reviewed and approved . Um Sarah , you presented a marketing research report um which pretty much rep represented that fifteen to thirty five year olds uh it has to be hand-held , power , channel , volume , number keys , possibly a speech recognition . And then Steph did a second presentation um that those functions plus streamlining them with big user-friendly keys that were easy to use . I think all of us agreed with those things . Kate presented a working design of {disfmarker} going after {disfmarker} going over the basics on the whiteboard um that it should be a simple mass-produced device , because of the twelve and a half Pence cost . Um but we did talk about possibly using rechargeable batteries and having a docking place as a selling point . Um and the new requirements that it for {disfmarker} be for T_V_ only um and that it include the l so slogan and colour of the uh corporate design be included . Um {vocalsound} the corporate image . So we agreed that the target market would be fifteen to thirty five with more money than sense , that were decision makers . Alternatively it would be a manufacturer to enclose it with the T_V_ , but it still should meet those parameters . Um and that the function we agreed was volume , power , numbers , enter , channels , a way to move between channels , easy to use and hand-held . {vocalsound} Um at that point we agreed that Sarah would look at the current cost of competition , what what do the current ones sell for . Um and Steph was gonna look at ec ergonomics . Kate was gonna look at cost and feasibility of the various possibilities that we discussed . And I was to type up these minutes and work on the final report . Is this a fair presentation of what our last meeting was ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: Okay . Right . So we're ready to close that and go back to our {disfmarker} That one . Right . We're up to the point of the {disfmarker} Go back . Um {vocalsound} the three presentations . So we're going to pull the plug on me and turn to Sarah . Is that okay ? Is that alright with everybody else ?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: Especially since Kate asked to be last . {vocalsound} Sarah , I'm sorry if I misspelled your name , I didn't know whether it was S_A_R_A_ or {vocalsound} S_A_R_H_ .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I respond to either .
Project Manager: You respond to whatever you get , huh ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: No worries .
Project Manager: Okay . Um , did you do your {disfmarker} Hit {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , {gap}
Project Manager: Ah , there it is . Ta-da .
Marketing: Okay , first thing I want to address is um one of the points that Florence brought up , which was uh current cost of the competition devices , similar to the ones that Stephanie uh showed us and and they're uh twenty to sixty Euros , depending on uh branding .
User Interface: Right .
Marketing: Some of them that have a higher brand recognition are on the more expensive end . But I think that with the current um price that we're searching for , we're well within , even on the lower end , of the uh of the market .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
Marketing: But I'm going to move on to more interesting um {vocalsound} more vibrant things . {vocalsound} So , I investigated the remote control market in greater detail , and my uh {disfmarker} the theme of what I was to work on was uh trend watch .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And {vocalsound}
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sorry . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'm glad to see the marketing budget is being so well spent on {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I know that you all are a distance from cutting edge marketing research ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: so you know , I'm just gonna try to cloak it in really professional terms here . What's hot , fruit and veg . Spongy .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And this is all over the catwalks , Paris , Milan , and I'm talking about clothing , furniture , shoes . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: This is really interesting change from past years ,
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: because it is much more organic , um some would say approachable . {vocalsound} And I think if we're to refashion our view of what we want in a remote control , we should perhaps think about incorporating technologically interesting fabrics and some of the bold colours into a simple handset . So . {vocalsound} I also did a little research on um {vocalsound} what again are the most important priorities in uh decision making about uh purchasing . Fancy . Functional is out . And f the fancy , and that's exactly the term , I'm I'm thinking polished , elegant , {vocalsound} you know , kind of innovative , but a cut above . This is twice as important as the next finding , which is technologically innovative . This is interesting , 'cause I think in the last meeting we were talking about technology as being so important , but maybe what's innovative is having it simple with um with uh technologically {vocalsound} superior fabrics or uh , you know , designed in interesting substances . Ease of use . Again , pretty low , I mean it's the top three , but each of the uh fancy and technologically innovative are far more important . So I think we should cloak the streamlined remote control device in a series of {vocalsound} fruit {vocalsound} fruit themed sleeves .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I think that's a good idea . Don't you ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Y yeah , you know {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It sounds like the the uh covers that they use for the remote , you know , your t your cell phone .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Exactly . {vocalsound} Exactly . I was thinking though that instead of having something uh like patterned , you know , so , you know , something similar to a summer dress . {gap} you know , it would have like fruit and veg , is that we actually make these spongy .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: They could be {disfmarker} ini initially I thought we could start with kind of um fruit that would suit kind of uh a long uh hand-held , so banana , pineapple and pear . Um it could actually {disfmarker} the sleeve could {vocalsound} take up a lot of the {vocalsound} development and the remote control , we'd just need to get reductionist on it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: They could be interchangeable , they're spongy , that goes back to ergonomic , and the youngsters love 'em , fun for the whole family , everyone can have their own . So what we're talking about is changing . this concept . Everyone has a T_V_ remote , but then we add in the fact that they could each have their own individual fruit .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's what's hot on the catwalks . {vocalsound} So , this is my {disfmarker} This is what I'm thinking .
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh-huh mm . In most families , don't {disfmarker} isn't the remote {disfmarker} is a remote .
Marketing: Y yeah , but I think I think what this would allow is perhaps a person in the family who had the most opinion about it {disfmarker} we all need a remote ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: but the person who is really perhaps active in personalising , I'm thinking the teenager , the {disfmarker} someone fifteen to thirty five would go out and get this additional thing the same way as you mentioned that people would get the cell phone covers .
User Interface: {vocalsound} So when your dad's sitting there , overriding your decision , going no we're gonna watch this , you can bring out your own remote and be like zap , no we're gonna watch this .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . W and {vocalsound} plus I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm . Well actually some households do have three and four T_V_s
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh yeah .
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: and they would have a remote for each one ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: so .
Marketing: Yeah . So this is an idea and I I {disfmarker} you know , this is exactly what the research has uh has shown . So I really open this up to uh any other feedback . This {vocalsound} spongy fruit and veg .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I I think we're gonna have some trouble when we get down to the component design on this .
Marketing: Thanks . {vocalsound} Alright .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Spongy is gonna be difficult , I'm afraid .
User Interface: Yep . {vocalsound} And as for as for um well budgeting as well , if we're gonna have lots of different interchangeable components .
Project Manager: Hmm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I I just have my ear to the market , guys . {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Is this {gap} to the market {gap} ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I mean basically we can make these things out of wood , titanium , plastic or rubber . I suppose rubber is the closest to spongy ,
Marketing: Is spongiest , yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah .
Marketing: That would add {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I was thinking titanium myself .
User Interface: I was thinking titanium , I was thinking it's just {disfmarker} I have been influenced by pictures of iPods , and they're also minimalist and shiny .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} They are and they they would fulfil the uh first um priority , which is fancy . I think many of us would associate those with fancy . Something else we could do is uh call it something that's fruit and veg oriented . We could call it uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The name .
Project Manager: Are we talking about the device itself or the c or a cover for the device that would be an interchangeable cov cover as a separate product ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well it would be uh a a very simple product that would have a spongy sleeve that would be interchangeable . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Perhaps perhaps that desi that particular suggestion needs to go back to management
User Interface: Yeah , but it's kind of pointless , isn't it ?
Project Manager: and perhaps go to another group to actually design as a separate product .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} That , you know , that might be {disfmarker}
User Interface: Let's delegate . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Wo would that be agreeable ?
Marketing: And then we could keep it titanium .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} W w would it be helpful if um I described the components a bit , because I think it would give you um {disfmarker} maybe bring this discussion back to Earth of what we can actually physically do .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , maybe . Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do you wanna be next or you want Kate to go next ?
User Interface: I think possibly it might be more useful if Kate went next .
Project Manager: Okay , we'll move the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} You can even have them in different flavours as well . {vocalsound} So that if you just wanna sit there and chew on the remote , it could be like pear flavour ,
Marketing: Yeah . Or s or smelly . Scratchy
User Interface: yeah . Scratch and sniff . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh well I was really thinking a lot about the I_ uh the iMac kind of gel gem tone .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right , well
Marketing: It's hot on the streets , guys .
Industrial Designer: I I I think some of this um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: you're gonna be a little disappointed with some of the things I have to tell you , but I'm afraid this is the real world . {vocalsound} So um I've been looking at the the basics of how these devices actually have to work in order to operate , and I've had some discussions with the ma manufacturing division , who have told me what's actually available , you know , what the current state of the art in components is , and some of the exciting new things they've got , but I'm not sure that it's quite what you want um . Now this isn't a very good overhead , but this is just to show you , this is the innards of a remote control um . I really need a pen or something but uh {disfmarker} does my mouse work ? No . Um {disfmarker} oh yeah , can you see my little mouse pointer ?
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Right . This is this is the a a {vocalsound} a remote that's been opened up
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: and that's the the back of the interface . And this is a push-button one , so you see these little little buttons here , they're little rubber rubber buttons that go through onto the the board at the back and they push these buttons here . Um {vocalsound} and we {disfmarker} that's the basic construction that we've got to got to accommodate . We got to have something that pushes the little buttons that um talk to the chip that encodes the message that sends the the message to the receiver . So um I wan I wanna go through not not just addressing the um {vocalsound} uh the the points that you made , Sarah , but um {vocalsound} doing my presentation in the order I wrote it . {vocalsound} So first of all um I wanna talk about what possibilities we've got for the energy source .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um we can have your bog standard double double A_ batteries in a replaceable um little compartment . We can have a hand {disfmarker} {vocalsound} sorry {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} A wind-up .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: a wind-up , yeah , {vocalsound} which I think is quite an interesting concept for a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} sorry {disfmarker} for a remote control ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but i it maybe is {disfmarker} doesn't quite go with the um the fruit and veg .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um one that one that I think is quite interesting is the kinetic energy source ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Remember , we only have forty minutes
Industrial Designer: where um {vocalsound} you you actually get the energy by moving the device ,
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: which is quite a ni a nice and neat one . You have to {disfmarker} it means that if it's sitting there for a long time it probably won't work , but you have to sort of throw it between your hands every now and then , it'll work .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Or we we had talked about solar power ,
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: but I thing that we agreed that that's not so good in the dark .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Now I'm afraid this is the options we've got on on the case . It can be made of plastic , rubber , wood o if you like , {vocalsound} or titanium .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um and the nearest we've got to st to spongy there I guess is rubber , but um {vocalsound} I'm gonna come back to the advantages of titanium ,
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: and basically it can have a flat surface , a curved surface or a double curved surface , but I think if we wanna use standard components , we're gonna have difficulty with anything much beyond that .
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Okay , what does the interface look like ? Um well push button , that's that's the one we're all familiar with . {vocalsound} Um we can have scroll buttons and the the scroll button can incorporate a push ,
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: so you can have it like on a mouse where you can use it to go up and down , change volume or channel or something like that and push to select something . {vocalsound} Um you can have multiple scroll buttons , um this is maybe getting a little bit complicated , but um it's it {disfmarker} the technology is there . And we can also incorporate an L_C_D_ display in the remote , but this will increase the cost . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um the electronics that actually makes the device work , we've basically got three , simple , regular , advanced , and the price goes up as we choose each of this . If we want the nice cheap one , the simple , then we can only have push buttons . All the other fancy interface designs go out the window , I'm afraid . Um pay a little bit more for a regular chip and you can have scroll buttons . If you want the advanced chip it obviously costs more , but it {disfmarker} that's what you need if you want the L_C_D_ display . And the manufacturing devision tell me that they have recently developed um sample sensor sample speaker devices . Now I don't know what that is , but I think they think it's quite important and we might want to incorporate it somewhere . Um ou our real expertise is in push buttons , I have to say , but maybe you think that's old technology . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker} well I I think we've got two options . We can either go for a really cheap model , keep all of the costs down , um which {vocalsound} means a flat plastic case with an ordinary battery and simple push buttons . Or we can have something that looks a bit nicer , I think it , um won't necessarily l uh look like a pineapple , but um that {vocalsound} may or may not be a good thing .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sorry . {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} but it could have an L_C_D_ screen and it could have multiple scroll buttons , and it could have the the company's new development of the um sample sensor and speaker . {vocalsound} So , thank you .
Marketing: That sounds good . Any idea {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you you mentioned that there would be a cost difference .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah ,
Marketing: Um do you have any idea if if this could {disfmarker} if the fancy model could be done in twelve Euros fifty ?
Industrial Designer: I'm afraid I don't have that information available . Um manufacturing didn't actually give {disfmarker} attach any prices to any of this , I'm afraid .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: Hmm . Because , you know what , I'm being quite serious when I say that that um the things I mentioned are hot . But I think the important thing might be to choose one .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah mm-hmm .
Marketing: You know , if if what you're telling me is is um some of these things aren't just f aren't feasible , maybe we could something about naming , we could call it , you know , Blackberry .
User Interface: Bear bear in mind it has to be the colours and styles of the company ,
Marketing: That's uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: so what I had been thinking was something chunky and yellow and plastic with black buttons with a logo on it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Banana ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Alright , well let's see then .
User Interface: But um I I don't know how important that is to keep it exactly the colours of the Real Reaction company .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: It's just what I'd understood we'd be doing . That's before I heard about all this hot tips about the future , fruit-wise .
Marketing: Yeah . But {disfmarker} yeah ,
Industrial Designer: We we could we could do um a double curved rubber one ,
Marketing: I'm trying to streamline mine a little bit .
Industrial Designer: which would allow um say a banana , but um unfortunately I see from my notes that if we do that , we have to have a push button as the interface ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: we can't do anything fancier .
User Interface: Shall we wait 'til I've 'til I've showed you what {disfmarker} well , {vocalsound} my extensive presentation {vocalsound} on what sort of interfaces are available .
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: Mm . Thank you , Kate .
Project Manager: Thank you , Kate .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: You did seem to include just in more detail what I've got though . So {vocalsound} so mine's a bit pointless . Right . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: F_N_ and F_ eight , did you say ?
Project Manager: Yes . There we go .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: I don't have it on mine though .
Marketing: Oh I think um Florence resolved it by
Industrial Designer: I If you do F_ uh F_N_ F_ eight again , it's {disfmarker} it'll {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Do it again .
Marketing: F_ eight again .
Project Manager: Keep doing it until you get it in both {disfmarker} you get it there , you get it yours without that one ,
Industrial Designer: I think it {disfmarker} yeah , you you will do an {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and then you get it with both .
User Interface: Should I do it again ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Maybe .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This time it should come up both .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Right then . I don't actually have a huge amount of different information then what Kate says ,
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: just that my method was to look at the , well , my my inspirations , which was a big collection of lots of different models of remote controls and other things that use a similar sort of thing , including M_P_ three players , uh like you know , hi-fi remotes , not just television and these things .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm .
User Interface: Uh having a think about the feature of ea the features of each ones , um what functions we actually need , and then how to group and arrange these on the actual the actual plastic or rubber hand-held piece . {vocalsound} Uh I've been especially interested in the iPod style scroll wheel , which {disfmarker} Well , I couldn't find a {disfmarker} the picture of the iPod w only linked to a web browser , so I couldn't copy and paste it , but it had a similar thing to this thing on the right . It has uh scroll wheels without without a display , but they they scroll like a computer mouse .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: So I was thinking that uh {vocalsound} um a really simple a really simple interface with just a couple of scroll things on it um and then instead of a display the display could appear on the television screen . Like I guess an existing Sky or cable one does . Like , you know , you press enter and it comes up with what's showing on that channel at the moment , and you can do {disfmarker} you can scroll along and it'll show you what's on in the next half hour , and you scroll up
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and you can see what's on the other channels while you're watching the same channel on the screen . Uh but I'm also equally taken with this chunky plastic kiddie remote ,
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: um which is really nice and fun and good to hold and nice , big , easy buttons to press , but still quite simple and quite cost effective . So
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: what seems kind of ideal for me would be to just have a fairly simple , uh not fancy but not totally minimalist , I mean just pretty simple plastic , probably , I was thinking , yellow and black , just because that's the company's colours , with very very few buttons , but that would correspond to a screen that would appear on the television screen , like , you know , {vocalsound} just small along the bottom instead of instead of having the iPod style display screen on the actual remotes , which is far too expensive .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: And when you've got a screen sitting there in front of you , you might as well have it appearing uh on the screen in front of you , it doesn't obscure much of the actual picture you're watching .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: And so on that you can , just much in the same way as an existing Sky remote , scroll along , scroll up and down .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I'd I'd certainly support that idea .
User Interface: And uh and I definitely support uh the use of plastic and or rubber . I mean titanium would be great , but I think it might be a bit too expensive and too kinda spacey . If we're k trying to keep it colourful and slightly organic , then I think titanium's too futuristic .
Industrial Designer: It's difficult to make fancy shapes in it as well , we can't for example have a double curved case in titanium unfortunately .
User Interface: Yeah . Whereas a plastic's so cheap and easy and mouldable and everything else .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: Uh {vocalsound} then {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And the the having the the the screen on the television screen I think is a good idea , 'cause um {vocalsound} otherwise we're we're putting up the price not only for putting {disfmarker} building the L_C_D_ in , but for the electronics as well .
User Interface: And it's a little bit pointless as well I think .
Industrial Designer: There is that .
User Interface: Like when when when you've got when you've got the screen there , it doesn't have to be anything fancy ,
Marketing: It's a duplication .
User Interface: just a little menu showing {disfmarker} yeah , a menu , you go into one menu and then it can have your different options , whether you wanna change the settings or the you know , your information about programme that's on at the moment .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I don't think that's to taxing to uh s engineer . {vocalsound} Um . But as for actually arranging them {disfmarker} let me go back to the to the picture of the kiddie one . And I quite like it , 'cause it's just smooth and hand-held and it's got these easily reachable buttons that quite nicely uh spaced out , so something a bit like that with buttons arranged in a kind of circle . Up , down , left , right .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Do you want scroll buttons in that as well ?
User Interface: I I was thinking not actually scroll , like a like mouse scroll , but you know , a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I can't quite d uh describe it . {gap} you see on the one on the right , down at the bottom , is the mouse . Yeah , see where the mouse is ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: like this s style thing where you c have up , down , left and right . And enter in the middle ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right .
User Interface: so you pick your menu and then {disfmarker} your different options and when when you click on each one , it {disfmarker} you can go into a new menu for that . I'm getting a bit uh specific here .
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: Really we'd have to use something to show you ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah . I think I think that's a g nice clean design ,
User Interface: but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: it's playing to our strengths which are in push button technology .
Marketing: {vocalsound} To uh m make it .
User Interface: If {disfmarker} I don't think I can get it up on the screen . Ah here we go . Right .
Marketing: Oh nice .
User Interface: Well ,
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} Hmm .
User Interface: the iPod spinning wheel is uh really complicated .
Project Manager: Huh .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: It does scroll , but it is hugely complicated . What else have we got ?
Marketing: Mm . Wow .
User Interface: Them , they're terrible . But they all have this this feature of this uh {disfmarker} It's not quite a scroll wheel , but it's a kind of selection in this circle ,
Project Manager: It's a selection wheel .
User Interface: which I think is a really good idea .
Industrial Designer: But we can implement it with simple push buttons , which is much cheaper .
User Interface: Yeah , like up , down , left and right . Which is good . And then and then {disfmarker} Yeah , so I mean either a channel up and down , volume up and down , next appearing programmes up and down , {vocalsound} uh and then also {vocalsound} when you get into the different menus on the screen , it's got your things like settings and contrast up and down .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: So all you really need is these four buttons with the enter in the middle .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: And that's it .
Industrial Designer: In fact {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Look at look at this one .
Industrial Designer: Oh that's really nice . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Almost impossible to misplace or l or lose .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Do you think with um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Might take up your whole living room .
Marketing: {vocalsound} It seems that that uh you guys are quite keen on the plastic , perhaps the {disfmarker} something reminiscent of the child's remote . Do you think we could put it in a in a fruit colour ? And have it abstract . You know ,
User Interface: Possibly .
Marketing: we could call {vocalsound} like a fruit name ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: but it would be a little more abstract .
Industrial Designer: Mm . We we could actually do it in rubber instead of plastic if you'd rather {disfmarker} if you feel {disfmarker} if you like the spongy {disfmarker}
User Interface: That also is possible .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Just {disfmarker}
Marketing: I'm just just throwing out ideas .
Project Manager: Or call it a or call it a banana and have it in yellow .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: Yeah . I'm thinking maybe we need to be a little bit more abstract if the design constraints are so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: Uh just something else I need to bring to your attention is have you have you seen these on a remote ? This is actually the volume up and down ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: but {vocalsound} they both say V_ on them ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: which , when you first look at it , {vocalsound} you expect that to be the down , because it looks like a downward pointing arrow ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: but it's actually the V_ to indicate that it's the volume , so uh we do need to avoid little ambiguities like these .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Nice . Good point .
User Interface: But we wouldn't have a specific volume up and down . If we're having the scroll wheel , then it's gonna double up as all the other up and down functions .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
User Interface: But then , that's complicated .
Project Manager: I wanna thank you all for all your presentations . We have about ten minutes left , in which time we have to make some decisions on the remote control concepts . Um and I think you all have been self-stimulating of working together . Um we need to come up with some specifics of the components , um the materials , things like making the decision on the energy um and the case and the interface type things . So {vocalsound} let's {disfmarker} Mm . Right . They want us to decide what form of energy are we going to use , which {disfmarker} the choices that we've discussed were pretty much battery , kinetic or solar . Um this is where Kate's expertise comes in , and our decision making will be a little bit guided by Kate at this point .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The {disfmarker} You were saying that the kinetic would be useful , that is you just have to move it some and you'd be able to use it um as opposed to a battery that you have to either put it in a recharger or um keep replacing the batteries . Um or solar that you'd have difficulty with it if it's a dark day , that it'll die on you , and no way to do it . That's the day you wanna use the T_V_ .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Um so what's our pleasure here , what would be the cost consequences of each of the three ?
Industrial Designer: Oh unfortunately I don't have costing information .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: I i in terms of workability , I I think the the two front-runners are the standard battery or the kinetic ,
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
Industrial Designer: but I'm sorry I don't figures on the difference in cost .
Project Manager: What's the uh feelings of the group on the kinetic ?
Marketing: I've used kinetic in terms of watches and it's very very uh handy , you don't even notice um that it's there .
User Interface: It sounds great . I've never come across it before , but it sounds fantastic . Sounds like it could be g a really good economical {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's {disfmarker}
User Interface: it would make the whole thing a lot lighter , more convenient .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: It could tie in with the fanciful design
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: as uh , you know , {vocalsound}
User Interface: 'Cause it's really a quite attractive thought ,
Marketing: throw the banana , you know , just gotta keep it moving .
User Interface: isn't it ? It's like {disfmarker} yeah ,
Project Manager: So the consensus seems to be use the kinetic if it's at all possible .
User Interface: a good selling point .
Marketing: Be
User Interface: But it does depend how much I mean how much it costs and how much more development and research it needs .
Project Manager: It costs . {vocalsound} Mm .
Industrial Designer: And and how much you do have to keep it moving ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: 'cause I'm conscious that watching T_V_ can be quite a sed sedentary activity .
Marketing: Yeah . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: But I could market that as a um as a {vocalsound} a {disfmarker} I was thinking actually a a cost saver down the road , in terms of battery , you know .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Do your exercises while you're watching the T_V_ . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: True , yeah , m more more environmentally friendly .
User Interface: Yeah , that's what I was thinking as well .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . You know ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: kind of the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Thanks for the reminder for five minutes to finish , thanks .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh right , okay ,
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} the next thing that they wanted us to do was look at chip on print as a decision .
Industrial Designer: I'd {disfmarker} that that's something I maybe should have covered . Um chip on print is just a manufacturing technique
Project Manager: Oh .
Industrial Designer: um and I would certainly recommend it , I think , because I'm not sure I have an alternative .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What about the ca
Industrial Designer: I i it it's just the way that the the the uh th the way it's ac it's actually built
Project Manager: yeah . Oh , the way we {gap} uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: and you you print onto the circuit board like you might print onto paper .
Project Manager: Oh , okay . Um what about the case ? I think they're talking there about do we want wood , plastic , titanium or rubber ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and I think we've discussed not having titanium . One , it's too expensive , um and second , it won't do this double um curves . Um we've sort of eliminated wood . We said plastic or rubber . What's the pleasure ?
Industrial Designer: Well if if Sarah's keen on a spongy feel , the the rubber that we're talking about is the same as you have in those little stress balls , so it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's exactly what I was thinking . I'm sold .
Industrial Designer: yeah .
Project Manager: What about you ?
User Interface: Do you not think it might need like a kind of a hard plastic inner shell with the actual delicate workings inside , and then a kind of spongy Yeah , s thick spongy cover ,
Marketing: Mm . Kind of like an internal egg .
Project Manager: Cover .
User Interface: so it feels like the whole thing's spongy , but actually you're not damaging anything by squeezing it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Plastic inside .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Because I mean you could just get carried away with the with the tac
Industrial Designer: I'd I'd need to talk to manufacturing again about whether that's actually possible , but I agree , it's uh {disfmarker} sounds like a nice idea if it is .
User Interface: Yeah . Well you do get a bit carried away with things that are tactile , you just wanna stroke them and squeeze them ,
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And with sports on television .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: and {disfmarker}
Marketing: You know . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um the next part they want is the user interface concept .
Industrial Designer: I should I should r {gap}
Marketing: I su
Project Manager: I'm sorry to push you , but we only have a couple minutes to {vocalsound} finish with .
Marketing: Then I'll just say I support either {disfmarker} from a marketing point of view I support either decision that the designers make on that .
Project Manager: Okay , and it says interface . What type and what supplements ?
User Interface: Just copy the one on the left . {vocalsound} No um a scroll {disfmarker} Well , like four buttons , up , down , left and right with enter in the middle , that will correspond to a menu on the screen .
Industrial Designer: Which I think technically is just push button and uh I'd certainly support that that
User Interface: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: that brings the cost down quite a lot
User Interface: I'd {disfmarker} like push buttons with {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and it's something that we're an ex the company's an expert on .
User Interface: So push buttons {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , um {vocalsound} that's that . Um this is gonna sound weird , but the next meeting starts in thirty minutes . Whew .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And they actually want a look and feel design , user interface design , you can look and see this as well as I can . Marketing they want product evaluation .
User Interface: No , it's still it's still plugged in on mine actually .
Marketing: No we can't , actually .
Project Manager: Oh . Oh my , I'm sorry .
Marketing: That's why I was looking over your shoulder
Project Manager: Oh , okay . Sorry about that . missed that one . This ought to be fun trying to get this thing to work . Ah , ta-da .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Now it's gone again .
Project Manager: Ah .
Industrial Designer: You know , I think the the company's s next project should to design a better overhead device that switches immediately . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes , because I can't even see mine . Next meeting starts in thirty minutes ,
User Interface: Oh yes .
Project Manager: these are {vocalsound} the individual actions . Yeah , right . Um the look and feel design is for Kate ,
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: uh Steph gets the user interface design , you get product {vocalsound} evaluation . Um the two of you {vocalsound} get to play with a Pla modelling clay um to do a prototype .
User Interface: Great .
Project Manager: Uh and everybody gets individual instructions in the usual way .
Marketing: Sounds good .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Anything else we need to do ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't think so .
Project Manager: Go to it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Play-Doh .
Project Manager: And that's the end of this meeting . That's for her benefit . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's really all I got , guys .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} | |
doc_101 | Project Manager: That should hopefully do the trick , um . 'Kay . Sorry about the small delay . Falling a little bit behind schedule . And that's uh fifteen twenty five . Okay . So just to try and roughly go over what we agreed in the last one , um we're gonna go for something uh uh how was it ? Uh The new black , I believe .
Marketing: {gap} .
Project Manager: Um something that looks good 'cause that seems to be in preference to actual functionality in the end , though we should never avoid functionality , of course . Uh many of our components are gonna be standard , off the shelf , but it seemed like we were gonna require at least an advanced chip and we were still very much for the idea of using an L_C_D_ display . Um other things were we were hoping to use rubber , most likely gonna be double curved , etcetera . Okay . So um due to your hard work , we might as well let the uh two designers go first , and uh show us the prototype .
User Interface: Okay , it's a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Quite how the best way to do this is , I'm not sure ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} I think if we both step up
Project Manager: but {disfmarker}
User Interface: and uh outline our ideas . Okay . Now do {disfmarker} uh doing the prototype gave us a bit more insight into the ergonomics of the design . Um for one thing , it turned out that the only point at which it needs to be articulated for handedness is um is h i is down here for the uh L_E_D_ . As it turned out , the whole thing transfers from the right to left hand fairly well from the point of view of operating the uh function buttons and joystick , though it might be an idea to be able to a adjust the positions for the base of the joystick just a little bit for uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: {gap} ju just a thought . You could simply have a slightly ovoid shaped joystick that could then just be turn uh twisted round , so that the uh sticky uh so that the bit that sticks out a bit more is on one side or the other . But as you as you see with the uh {vocalsound} with holding it in the left hand , the L_ uh the L_C_D_ is nowhere useful , so that would need to be articulated uh if we're going to retain {gap} ergonomic design . Um now I I got your note about uh keeping the cost down .
Project Manager: I'm afraid yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: We'll go into that a bit more ,
User Interface: {gap} this design could be done with um with uh plastic casing .
Project Manager: but please go on .
User Interface: Though I would recommend around the grip part here in the middle , having maybe just a rubber grip over that which would allow for a slightly more sort of bio-morphic form , and a bit more ergonomic as well . As for the um as for the single curve , um well this edge and this edge , like I say it would be nice to have some curvature to it , but it's not absolutely necessary . Really the curve that's most needed is the underside so that the jo so that the joystick rests over the the edge of the hand like this . Um and you have the uh transmitter here and a wee speaker for the uh for the uh for the uh fi uh for the remote control finder . So .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Any further comments ?
Industrial Designer: Um obviously it's gonna be bulkier than how it looks , because it's gonna be flat on one side , so the L_C_D_ will be s sticking down like this , won't it ?
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: 'Cause it {disfmarker} you can't get it curved .
User Interface: Yeah , I mean the
Industrial Designer: Uh because of costs .
User Interface: uh {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And it's plastic as well , so it won't be as comfortable on the hand .
User Interface: Yeah . I mean with the with the rubber design it could i you know it could pretty much mould very much to the to the user's hand .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: One nice wee feature if we could if we could still do the rubber , I though of was to have {gap} the uh rubber extend beyond the end of the uh {vocalsound} of the rigid substructure . So it has a wee sort of tail that you just drape over your wrist so it stays in position nicely .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm . Lovely . Um .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , {gap} . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , yeah . Great . Um .
Marketing: Right . Yeah I've got a {disfmarker} if you load up my evaluation document .
Project Manager: Yeah , okay {gap} .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Excellent work .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Um .
Marketing: Uh evaluation . {vocalsound} Basic point uh have a list of criteria that we need to rate the prototype by . {vocalsound} Um then we will {disfmarker} it's a seven s um seven seven step kinda evaluation process . So um not seven steps , seven scale . So after we've finished doing all the ratings for each criteria , we average that and that will give us some type of uh confidence in our prototype . And uh the criteria {gap} based on Real Reactions' kinda goals and policies , marketing strategies , and also those I put together from the user requirements phase . 'Kay . Um if you flip the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So , those are the criteria . And uh perhaps I could have put 'em a bit better , but you notice a few things that we've totally abandoned , which means {vocalsound} that uh the product will score very badly on some of those points .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Put it mildly . So we have um true ? One , t Seven , eight , oh . Fourth . Okay , so we have to go through each point . If we imagine it's actually straight , and just give it a a score . So um how well would you say the prototype is uh how well have we realised the dream of being able to stop remotes from from being lost , or to be able to find them once they are lost . I mean , uh is the homing thing still {disfmarker} the locator , is that still {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , that's still part of the design .
Marketing: Sure . And Adam , we can keep that in ?
Project Manager: Yeah , I believe so . So I mean I don't think anybody could actually stop a remote being lost ,
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: 'cause that would mean doing something about the human element ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Sure .
Project Manager: but I'd like to think that we've done something about finding the damn thing once we have .
Marketing: T
User Interface: Mm . Mm . And making it a bright colour helps
Marketing: Sure .
User Interface: with the {disfmarker} personally I would have gone for purple {gap} . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm . Bright colour . So we still have that noise thing , yeah ?
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Os on a scale of one to seven , how would you guys rate it for finding {gap} finding it once it's lost ?
User Interface: I'd say number one .
Marketing: Number one ?
Industrial Designer: One . Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay . Number number one for the first criteria .
User Interface: I think w if it was just the sounder then th {gap} I mean something I've found with uh w w with say tr trying to find uh a cordless phone or a m mobile , you can hear it , but you can't quite pin it dow pin down where it is .
Marketing: Yeah you can tell what room the mobile is {disfmarker}
User Interface: Bu
Industrial Designer: What about {disfmarker} what if the the volume on the T_V_'s turned up massively and uh you just wanna turn down the volume {gap} can't find remote . Suppose you have to go to the T_V_ and do it manually . Mm .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm . Um
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Like y you wouldn't hear the speaker {gap} .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: just before we go through all of the steps here , um well what we'll do is
Marketing: You wanna say something ?
Project Manager: um if we can look at the criteria you're gonna evaluate , and then we'll come back to the product evaluation if that's alright .
Marketing: That's fine .
Project Manager: Yeah , is that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh that's that's fine .
Project Manager: Um so is there anything here that you that you wanted to cover as in the criteria that you've covered ? And then we'll come back pretty much promptly to this .
Marketing: What do you mean cr is there anything I wanna {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I is there any of these criteria that need any explaining ? Or is there anything that yous thought tha really would stand out compared to the others ?
Marketing: Um , a few . {vocalsound} Something I neglected from my initial research is that Real Reactions has a a goal strategy that all of the products be inspired by material fashion , and clothing fashion . That is why fruit and veg being popular in the home and in clothing was important and they want all their products to be somehow inspired by current trends in fashion . So they say we put the fashion in electronics , well they really mean it they they're very big on fashion ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: so . That's this bit right here . And uh this bit is this one easy to use for visitors or for anybody ? I guess it's just the same as saying easy to use interface , so it's kinda condensed into one . And we can come back to it , you said .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So .
Project Manager: No and which we will do very very shortly . Um . Okay . Slight problem we had was that we have an amazing four Euros over budget for what we were hoping to do . Um most of it stems from the use of the L_C_D_ which I think in the end accounted for about half of our expenditure because of course we required a chip as well . Um the only way to get this down was either to ditch the a L_C_D_ , at which point we've removed a large part of how we were gonna interface , {gap} require more buttons , etcetera . Or what we did was that we um we as in I as I was quickly going over it was altering the actual structure . Um changing it to plastic and a solid unit with a single curve design would allow us to come back into the um proposed costs and we're just scraping it in , we've got point two of a Euro left over there . So we're just managing it really . Even then as well , um there was no criteria technically defined for a joystick so I've used what I think's appropriate . With any luck that won't mean that we've incurred more cost than we can actually afford to . It blows a lot of our really good ideas kind of slightly to one side , for example the possibility of having a U_S_B_ connection is definitely not viable now . Um .
Marketing: Different languages ?
Project Manager: That should still be viable . We've got an advanced chip , we've got the use of the L_C_D_ . So being able to communicate in multiple languages is still very much a possibility .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um but what's something we need to decide on is how we're gonna go from here . {vocalsound} We do need to try and come up with an idea which could be continued with other people if need be . Um . We can I can bring the excel up sheet up and uh show you if you wish um . I really think as m much as it pains me is that we might have to go with plastic and some kind of solid design , possibly meaning that the L_C_D_ wouldn't be in this perfect place . It might be s stuck like slightly between what would be good for left handed and what would be good for a right handed person .
User Interface: Mm-hmm I suppose o one thing that could be done is h {vocalsound} is have it um circular and have it s {vocalsound} so that the uh the pink {gap} actually goes a bit over the pinkie finger . Mm .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: So that uh th
Project Manager: It very much is about making concessions , unfortunately . Um .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Do you have any data on how much um different prints cost ? I mean can you get the entire thing printed with a design um ?
Project Manager: Um b b b da is {disfmarker} you mean on the plastic , or ?
Marketing: {gap} .
Project Manager: Let's have a look . You now have as much information as I do . {vocalsound} Um .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: So as you can see here , for example , the battery really not very little choice in that one . We've gone for one of the cheaper options as well . Unfortunately we require the advanced chip if we're gonna do what we're needing to . I've said single curved . We really do need it to be that way for the ergonomics of it . Um plastic for some reason incurs no cost , which I've had to very much make advantage of , despite the fact that rubber's only got a value of two Euros per unit . Problem comes here as you can see in the interface . Um if I've read this thing correctly , then we can save point five of a Euro here in that it's not per push button . That might make sense , because then a numeric keypad would come in at um what , four point five Euros , which is an awful lot , so that could well be wrong . Even if we save point five there , it would just mean that we're most likely placing it in actually just gaining a colour for the unit , which has had to be put to one side . As you can see , the use of an L_C_ display um advanced chip and what would determine the scroll wheel here as well because it's an integrated scroll scroll wheel push button that wasn't quite what I think they had in mind with a joystick .
Marketing: Why would why would that be more expensive than an individual push button and scroll wheel together ? That's quite significantly expensive .
Project Manager: I {disfmarker} that's something you'll have to take up with the bean counters . Um
Marketing: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm . {gap} yeah .
Project Manager: as you can see I mean that's taken up well over half of the price .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So um I'm very much open to suggestions of where we go , but because we need to shed what was four Euros off of the um the price of for what we really desired , this one comes in under price as you can see , but this was the one that sacrificed the material for the case and for the actual case design .
Marketing: We don't even have uh speakers here . The {disfmarker} like uh we uh {disfmarker} what about speakers and transmitters and stuff like that ? Have we factored that in ?
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Uh no , we haven't , not {disfmarker}
Marketing: Transmitter , receiver , speakers . Plus the extra device itself that's gonna be on a T_V_ .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Is that gonna be a button , or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: That'll {gap} it literally would just be a button .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: We might have to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That's too expensive {gap} isn't it ?
Project Manager: It looks like almost nothing {disfmarker} Mm . Oh good call , I missed that .
Marketing: I I mean it's not on here , but um .
Project Manager: {gap} that's a very valid point .
Marketing: Did they s do we have to use an advanced chip for the L_C_D_ ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay . Well that's {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: So if we're gonna go with the L_C_ display , then that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: What's a hand dyna dynamo ? You have to wind it up ?
Project Manager: I believe so , yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That would probably not be in keeping with the um the fashion statement and such ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Technology . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Fashion .
Project Manager: yeah .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So basically the only new thing is the L_C_D_ on the remote now .
Project Manager: Being manipulated by the joystick , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Oh , and joystick , yeah .
Project Manager: Which I'm defining as scroll wheel . Um .
Marketing: And we couldn't replace the joystick , right ? Because we would need four extra buttons to replace it , up down left and right , and that would be more expensive than a {disfmarker} but is a scroll wheel not just back and forward ?
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah it's just because there was no actual definition for what a joystick might be , that that's what I've labelled it for the purposes of this evaluation .
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} The L_C_D_ basically is the big selling point of
Project Manager: If we remove the L_C_ display , we could save ourselves
Industrial Designer: the remote .
Project Manager: a fair amount . Which you could {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But that's what makes it uh original though ,
User Interface: Mm . I think {gap} if we remove the the L_C_ display then there was absolutely no point to any of these meetings
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: isn't it ?
User Interface: and we just {gap} we could just put our branding on any other remote control .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah . Um . Uh k
Project Manager: It's a shame . We should possibly have {disfmarker} If we could've increased the price we could've manufactured that and we could've got something far closer to what we were hoping to .
Marketing: Does this does this bear in mind that {disfmarker} I mean it's a bit ridiculous that they're gonna charge us what is it , like this much money for three million if we're gonna buy three million components ,
Project Manager: Again , you'll have to argue with the accountants on that one .
Marketing: you know .
Project Manager: Um but for the purposes of this meeting , I'm {disfmarker} we're gonna have to stick with these figures .
Marketing: Mm . 'Kay .
Project Manager: So , I would say that it would seem like the general opinion is we're gonna keep the L_C_ display 'cause it's about what really separates us , {vocalsound} despite the cost it's gonna incur . Um
Marketing: I think so .
Project Manager: are people maybe not happy with , but are willing to go ahead with this in going for a plastic solid case , to keep the L_C_D_ ?
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Um yeah {gap} I mean one thing , I mean ho uh how much extra would it be to to keep I mean {vocalsound} keep the um the articulation ?
Project Manager: It's hard to tell . Um I would say that you're at least gonna take double curved ,
User Interface: This is what I'm wondering .
Project Manager: and even then I'm not quite sure if that's incorporating the idea of articulation .
User Interface: Oh
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: no , I think I I it d that it needn't require it to be double curved .
Industrial Designer: It can be s yeah , it can still be single curved ,
User Interface: It's uh it's just {vocalsound} it's just {vocalsound} it's just that the case would come in t {vocalsound} would be made in two parts and then joined together with an articulation .
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Single curved with articulation ?
Industrial Designer: You just {gap} .
Marketing: Could we could we not get rid of the curvy the curvous the curvaceousness and focus on the menu being the best interface ? 'Cause like we {disfmarker} do we have re restrictions on software ?
Industrial Designer: That's what we need for the joystick I think though .
User Interface: Mm . Yeah , I mean
Marketing: Oh but there has to be {disfmarker}
User Interface: and {vocalsound} I mean the uh I mean if you look uh if you look closer at the uh at the prototype here , the lines here along the grip are actually quite straight . Um I mean {gap} yeah ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} But the curves all o over {gap} hand ,
User Interface: on the {gap} on the L_C_D_ I mean although we've done it with a curve it
Project Manager: is it ?
User Interface: could just as easily be done um without curves . The curve that's really needed is up here ,
Marketing: {gap} joystick .
User Interface: to put uh to keep the joystick in a good ergonomic position for it to have it rest on the top of the hand .
Marketing: Okay . Sure . Okay , my bad .
Project Manager: We wouldn't actually save a lot by reducing it anyway , so I mean for the purposes of this meeting maybe we can state that single curve still allows articulation .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Um unless we hear otherwise we could go ahead with that proposal .
Marketing: So I think the product is not gonna perform so well for my criteria .
Project Manager: Which is what we can get onto now . As long as {disfmarker} so are we gonna say {disfmarker} {gap} w we have to keep an eye on the time as well , but we're gonna say um single curved design {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh , wait a minute . Sample speaker ? What is a sample speaker ? Is that somewhat similar to what we want ?
Project Manager: It could well be ,
User Interface: Mm no
Project Manager: but at a cost of {disfmarker}
User Interface: that's that voice response thing that we got the email about .
Industrial Designer: Costs four .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: But I thought it was just completely pointless .
Marketing: You got a email about voice response ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I did not ,
User Interface: Alright .
Marketing: so .
User Interface: B i basically it was {gap} saying that our labs had come up with a chip that you could , you know , say hello to , and it would say hello back in a friendly female voice {gap} . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , yeah we'll definitely won't go with that one .
Marketing: We won't go with that one , did you say ?
Project Manager: Yeah , that's voice recognition , so .
Marketing: I mean I {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} Okay , okay .
Project Manager: Um . So , okay yeah , battery definitely , {disfmarker}
Marketing: So it looks like we're gonna get rid of the whole loca {vocalsound} locator thing .
Project Manager: It looks like it unless we can manage to put it in under point two Euros , um .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Maybe even slight well oh yeah , pretty much point two Euros , I'd say . So we'll leave that one for now . {gap} we'll just have {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Are we going for a special colour at all ?
Project Manager: It's uh a case of um I'm uh slightly unsure . One {disfmarker} point five of a Euro for one push button doesn't sound quite right . So maybe it's a case of a push button is maybe one or more . Um .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Well
Project Manager: At which point if {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I was {gap} for a case . Or had you already incorporated that ?
Marketing: Oh , special colour for the case .
Project Manager: Well you got point five there . It's literally a case of whether or not this is correct . I'm not quite sure if they're {disfmarker} I don't think they mean point five Euros per button .
User Interface: Okay , well
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: l let's say that and then we can have our special coloured case
Project Manager: So
User Interface: and then we at least have {disfmarker} make it a little harder to lose .
Project Manager: There we go .
User Interface: Because most m most remotes are a fairly dingy colour that gets camouflaged under any pile of crap in a living room .
Marketing: W what's the default colour ? White or black ?
Project Manager: Black's probably the normal colour you'd say ,
User Interface: Or grey .
Project Manager: yeah .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: I quite like that colour that you're fetching there ,
User Interface: Yellow . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: it's uh definitely for make it glow in the dark even better .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So will we go with that then ?
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: It's not and we can see {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: we'll come back to uh your evaluation
Marketing: {vocalsound} Sure .
Project Manager: which you're probably now going to pan us but there we go .
Marketing: Okay . Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So uh {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Just to give you an idea , um you want to go maybe a bit quickly as well , I'm not sure how much time . We've not hit the five minute mark warning yet ,
Marketing: Right okay . Okay .
Project Manager: but .
Industrial Designer: Think it's ten minutes left . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Ten .
Marketing: 'Kay . Ability to stop remotes from being lost or to find them once they are lost . Um . Okay .
Industrial Designer: Special colour .
Marketing: Special colour .
Project Manager: Mm mm four ?
Marketing: Uh uh four .
Project Manager: Three ? Mm .
User Interface: Three . I think we can do three .
Marketing: Three if we're being generous , I feel .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Th the special colour doesn't {disfmarker} would I think make a difference .
Marketing: Think we're being generous here with three .
Industrial Designer: Three .
User Interface: It makes it stand out from {disfmarker} you know it's lost in a big pile of crap , it stands out from the rest of the crap . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm . Yeah . {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Reduce the number of unused buttons . We're down to t two buttons , is it ?
User Interface: Two buttons and a joystick .
Project Manager: Two buttons .
Marketing: Okay , so that's a one . You know ,
User Interface: Totally .
Marketing: where that's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . I'd say we're doing well there .
Marketing: Okay , that was good . Easy to use interface , buttons menu , menus {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Marketing: that's yeah that's good . {vocalsound} 'Kay that's {disfmarker} we're not doing so badly . Um {vocalsound} easy to use {disfmarker} oh okay , let's forget that one . Fancy looking . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} As he models the {disfmarker}
User Interface: It doesn't get much fancier .
Marketing: Sure . And we could do whatever we like with the L_ L_C_D_ . Yeah let's just assume it's a good L_C_D_ display .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Maybe I was panicking for no reason .
Industrial Designer: Are we going one on {gap} ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: I'd say we go two , 'cause like f the fanciest would be the double curved .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: I'd {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Wouldn't it ?
Marketing: w maybe you'd be a bit too {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: yeah . There we go . Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: With the articulators . With bells on it .
Marketing: that's m that's that's better too . More accurate numbers . Technologically innovative . Well , we're getting rid of the locator thing
Project Manager: Which is a shame .
Marketing: which which
User Interface: Mm . I'd give it a three for this {disfmarker} for that .
Marketing: yeah {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No need for teletext .
Marketing: {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah . I mean the menus thing is something you don't normally see on um on a remote ,
Marketing: 'Kay .
User Interface: but {vocalsound} you see it in a lot of other places .
Marketing: Yeah , mobile phones .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: And y what you're doing is moving the menu from the television to the remote control , so it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: You say three ? I might go as far as two on that . Three .
User Interface: I'd give it a three .
Project Manager: I'd be tempted with three , yeah .
Marketing: Three . Okay .
Project Manager: We'll get panned on the next one , anyway .
Marketing: Okay . Materials that people find pleasing .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , w
Marketing: Sponginess is what they really would have wanted , apparently .
Project Manager: It is , yeah . Don't blame them .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um because of the way that we've minimalised the number of buttons and such .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Plastic , it sucks . But it's no worse than any of the other pl remote controls we have .
Marketing: That's true . It's not a step backwards .
Industrial Designer: {gap} five ?
User Interface: Mm-hmm . I'd s I I'd give it a six , to be honest .
Industrial Designer: Six ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , okay let's give it a six .
Industrial Designer: Six , {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay , that's totally thrown everything off balance . Inspired by the latest interior and clothing fashion . W we could . What colour were we gonna make it ?
Industrial Designer: Put a leopard print on it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well I I I would sa I would say give a s give a selection of colours .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I know ,
User Interface: Um we went with yellow we went with yellow for the prototype
Marketing: but {disfmarker}
User Interface: 'cause we had yellow . If I were buying one , I'd go for purple . Leopard print would be cool .
Marketing: But um by this I think it's more a case of fruit and veg , {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah we gotta {gap} . I'd say the colour of the border there world {disfmarker} you'd find that , {gap} that's that'd stand out .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Like yellow , yeah . It would also help keep the the product placement s
Industrial Designer: Logo , brand .
Project Manager: yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Is it inspired by {gap} clothing fashion ?
Marketing: But {disfmarker} Th th they're referring to the fruit and veg thing .
Industrial Designer: Mm 'kay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes .
Marketing: Is this like a banana type colour ? Could we stretch {disfmarker} no still , it's not shaped like a banana is {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's kinda {disfmarker} {gap} i
Project Manager: It's kind o it
User Interface: it won't be when it's been
Project Manager: probably {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh is that 'cause it's flat ?
User Interface: budgeted .
Marketing: What is {disfmarker} what fruit or veg is flat ?
User Interface: I I think s I I think this isn't {disfmarker} not particularly fruit and veggie . Um .
Marketing: Yeah . Or we might have to suffer badly for this one as well . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yellow courgette .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I mean it's probably more fruit and veg than most other things out there bar fruit and veg , so , {vocalsound} what , four ?
Marketing: Four ? Oh that's it's very ambitious ,
Project Manager: Is that being too generous ?
User Interface: Mm . I'd {vocalsound} I'd I don't think fruit and veg is the sole criterion . {vocalsound} Is the sole criterion for being um fashion {gap} fashionable or inspired by current fashions .
Marketing: yeah , um .
Project Manager: Oh dear , {gap} .
Marketing: Sure . Inspired by {gap} .
User Interface: Um I'd g I'd rate I'd rate this fairly highly from that point of view actually .
Industrial Designer: Well this this what we're gonna t this is their motto , like .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And we're we're not doing well on it .
Marketing: This is their strategy . I m imagine we actually had some money invested in this and the amount that we invest is gonna be proportional to the marks . Might {disfmarker} we might wanna be a bit more skepible sceptical about this one .
Project Manager: What would you think yourself ?
Marketing: I would say {disfmarker} I mean it's it's not at all , right ? {vocalsound} In any way or shape or form .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well , it's kind of curved
Marketing: We didn't m
Project Manager: and we can make it yellow , and that's pretty much banana like .
Marketing: Okay , the the yellow banana like thing is I think is okay .
Project Manager: Si it's got a curve to it .
Marketing: Right five . Is that {vocalsound} sound reasonable ?
Project Manager: Am I {disfmarker} do you think I'm stretching the uh the use of the banana ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I'll go with five .
Marketing: Five . {vocalsound} Yeah . 'Kay , so we have one , two , three , four , five , six , seven . So five , seven , ten , sixteen , twenty one . Which gives us an average of three . It's {disfmarker} well this would be in the middle . So we it's it's not bad . It's in the good section .
Project Manager: It's not bad and considering the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} don't pick the pen . Um .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oops . Sorry . {vocalsound} I'm I'm sorry .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Y oh and you've knocked batteries out .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um right okay it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: 'S bad design , that thing . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: considering the price we had to get this in , to have a positive {disfmarker} you know , even based on the four of us being heavily biased , um
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} it was gonna be quite hard to get anything standing out I'd say possibly , based on um the the cost features .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Mm , yeah .
Marketing: Even if we were to increase this entire thing by by seven , we were to go down a grade to to four , we would have to do {disfmarker} I mean we didn't we weren't that kinda optimistic too optim overly optimistic . You know like we didn't we didn't add we didn't subtract a whole seven points from these things , so I think we're definitely on the good bit .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Even if we gave this one seven and this one seven , that's still only three extra points over seven . You know , it's {disfmarker} yeah ,
User Interface: Mm . Personally , I think given that the product um only replaces a single remote control
Marketing: we did it w it was okay . It was good .
User Interface: that you've already got , are people really gonna shell out twenty five Euros for something that's only marginally good ?
Industrial Designer: Well , it depends who your {disfmarker} who's {disfmarker} what the target people are , like you'd say maybe the fashion conscious
Project Manager: Maybe it's been targeted {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: women would be going , oh look at that , 's cool , it looks like a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: it's yellow , looks like a banana , it's cool it's gotta {disfmarker} look good in the sitting room .
Project Manager: Hide it in the fruit basket .
Industrial Designer: Rather than the L_C_D_ whereas uh more technical like like more uh people in with the latest technology {gap} it's good , it's got an L_C_D_ screen 's only got two buttons and a joystick . So , which which kind of people would be more likely to buy it ?
Project Manager: Probably the people technologically . They're usually the ones that buy pointless stuff .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think so .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I mean my mum still has not learnt how to use text messaging on her phone , and she's had it for a long time , you know . She uses it to make phone calls and that's it .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah . So I think if sh if my mum saw a remote control like this with only two buttons and a joystick , I mean that'll probably be the first one she decides not to buy , you know .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: She'd be like is this a remote control , I don't {disfmarker} how do you use it , and stuff like that . So even if it is really user friendly to us , but we're used to using menus all the time .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . I s {vocalsound} I suppose one thing is that b because it's technically innovative , um for someone who's sort of technophobic , the fact that it simply looks unfamiliar would be daunting .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Um .
Marketing: I think it's totally uh radical to have a remote control with no no numbered buttons ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: But like radical good , maybe .
Project Manager: Okay . Um don't know how lo much longer we've got . At least five minutes I think . Um quickly we'll pop onto project evaluation . Um . So , we've got these uh four criteria here for uh satisfaction . Does anybody want to um um do you have any opinions on any of them ? For example um {disfmarker} we'll work backwards I suppose . The ability to work on this project using the technology we've been presented with . Um {gap} people made good use of the uh pen and paper ?
User Interface: Yeah ,
Project Manager: I would say {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: got notes and doodles .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Wrote nearly a page ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: but not {gap} .
Project Manager: I'm not quite sure what the advantage for us using a digital pen might be .
User Interface: Well I think this is a {disfmarker} I think the digital pen's mostly for the benefit of the uh
Marketing: I think tracking .
User Interface: of the researchers studying this . It's all p goes into their corpus .
Project Manager: It must {disfmarker}
User Interface: Though it would have been nice to be able to transfer the um transfer our n our paper notes onto the uh computer ourselves .
Marketing: Yeah , that woulda been pretty good .
Project Manager: It does seem like the paper's still a heavy consideration for taking notes . So maybe this is literally just a way around it . Um I dunno . How are people satisfied with the teamwork we've managed to display today ?
User Interface: {gap} .
Marketing: I'd {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Good .
Marketing: yeah I liked it , yeah .
Project Manager: Leadership . As much as can be leadered in this uh thing .
Industrial Designer: Very good .
Marketing: I li yeah , top marks .
Project Manager: Um last one we've got is room for creativity .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Unti uh uh until uh until accounts came along ,
Project Manager: Now , I think we got {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap} squish .
Industrial Designer: We're burs bursting with creativity .
Marketing: yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah
Marketing: We we're not lacking in ideas , you know it's {disfmarker} that was not the problem .
Project Manager: I think of {disfmarker} in the end , ideas that can be used {gap} sadly {gap} . Not so much that we weren't full of ideas , but of ones that are gonna allow us to actually build the thing . It's a bit of a pity .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um I would have to agree on that . I think we needed a larger budget .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: If you're going to aim your a um product maybe at the technological kind of sector , then you can afford to maybe jack the price up slightly from what it is .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Because they will pay outrageous cash to {gap}
User Interface: Mm . I mean I th {vocalsound} I mean I think to r retaining the s the more sort of bio-morphic form in the articulation would gain more in s uh would gain more profit in sales than it would lose in uh
Project Manager: first on the market .
User Interface: in added expense .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: And the price was like {disfmarker} it was twice the w assembly cost . And would it have to be twice that ? It could be like coulda had the assembly {gap} like maybe fifteen Euro .
Project Manager: It could even {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We'll still settle for twenty five {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: That's true , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Maybe . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um I suppose these are all that will have to be taken up with a at a different group at I guess . As to a {gap} the costs involved . But I mean we've got a a prototype .
User Interface: Such as it is .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So I dunno , I I think it's gone okay today , considering the information that we've had at our disposal , and um such .
Marketing: Maybe the counts wou woulda been better if we had a list or more {disfmarker} Yeah , to begin with .
Industrial Designer: In the beginning , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Probably would have {disfmarker} mean we could have come up with a lot more solid design in the end ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I would have to agree . It is very much a pity to um get so far into the stage and then find out that maybe some of your ideas are just a bit too expensive . Always hard to tell until you know the costs . Um . Okay . Are the costs within budget ? Well ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: they are now that we have our slightly less than capable product .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: We've evaluated it , and we can say that we came out with a value of three .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Actually I want th one thing I would say {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I mean something that could perhaps be part of the product mm the um m product testing market research process would be to uh produce mock-ups of both versions and see just how much of a difference the over {gap} going over-budget um m would make to sales .
Project Manager: It's {disfmarker} yeah ?
Marketing: And like response from consumers {gap} .
User Interface: And we could even you know , market two versions .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Wee cheapie version with the nice bio-morphic rubber . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And then the final one where you get to call it Hal .
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: But we'll go into that later .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Sure .
Project Manager: Right um
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: is there anything else that anybody would like to to add , um {gap} anything they think that's not been covered , before I quickly write up a final report . Um I dunno , I mean we've got a product . We maybe aren't as happy with it as we'd like to be , but we've got something we think we can maybe stick onto the the market and sell . And of course something we have been avoiding talking about 'cause of we've no information is selling them directly to the manufacturers . There is a huge market .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I mean we've briefly touched on it but we've no more knowledge then there's little we can say on that .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah . So um unless anybody's got anything they'd like to add , we can maybe round this up slightly earlier than we'd need to and then we can finish up the writing and such .
User Interface: And I can get my bus . Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah ?
Marketing: Yeah . Okay , let's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh thank you for your participation .
Marketing: Thank you .
User Interface: Thank you .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I was actually kind of upset you know at the budget , and that we had to cut a lot of stuff . It's like man , we we can't have the locator thing . And s yeah that's just bad . Do you think maybe {gap} the prices were were made ?
Project Manager: That {gap} a question we can ask {gap} . {vocalsound} | |
doc_102 | The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 14thmeeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. This will be a hybrid meeting. Some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person. In order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber, two screens have been set up on either side of the Speaker's chair, and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using their earpiece at their desk. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name, and please direct your remarks through the chair. For those joining via video conference, I would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking. Also, please note that if you want to speak in English, you should be on the English channel. If you want to speak French, you should be on the French channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages. Should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times, they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order. Those in the Chamber can rise in the usual way. Please note that today's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the House. We'll now proceed to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are none. Now we'll proceed to the tabling of documents. Mr.LeBlanc has a document he wants to table. Go ahead, Mr.LeBlanc.
Hon. Dominic LeBlanc: Mr. Chair, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, a report entitled "Democracy Matters, Debates Count: A report on the 2019 Leaders' Debates Commission and the future of debates in Canada. Mr. Chair, on behalf of all of us, I want to thank the Right Honourable David Johnston for his continued service.
The Chair: Good. We'll now proceed to the presenting of petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that you please come to the front and drop off your certificate at the table once the petition has been presented. In presenting petitions, the first presenter today is Mr. Genuis.
Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm pleased to be presenting a petition in support of Bill S-204. This is a bill in the Senate, put forward by Senator Salma Ataullahjan. It would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent by the donor. It also creates a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to Canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking. This bill is designed to confront and address the horrific practice by which, in certain casesfor instance, inside Chinaminority communities or dissidents may be targeted and have their organs removed as they're killed and used for transplantation. Petitioners are supportive of Bill S-204, and they want to see it passed as soon as possible.
The Chair: Our next petition will go to Mr. Viersen.
Mr. Arnold Viersen (Peace RiverWestlock, CPC): Mr. Chair, I am presenting a petition today signed by Canadians who are concerned that Bill C-7 removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime, including the mandatory 10-day waiting period. Mr. Chair, these people who are signing this petition would like to see an improvement in assisted living, not assisted dying.
The Chair: We'll now go to Ms. Zahid.
Mrs. Salma Zahid (Scarborough Centre, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to present an e-petition signed by over 40 people. It asks that the Government of Canada recognize the Republic of Somaliland as an autonomous state that may result in foreign investments, direct access of development aid, foreign aid for disaster relief and infrastructure development investment loans.
The Chair: Now we'll proceed to Statements by Members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. Each statement will be for a maximum of one minute. I remind members that if they exceed that time limit, they will be interrupted. Our first statement goes to Monsieur El-Khoury.
Mr. Fayal El-Khoury (LavalLes les, Lib.): Mr.Chair, I thank the government for the way it has managed this global crisis and its impact on Canadians. It has acted in a robust, rapid and very effective way. Our Prime Minister has been awarded the medal of honour, courage and humanity worldwide. Canada is one of the few countries that has acted in the best interests of its citizens and maintained their dignity in these uncertain times. While addressing Canadians, our right honourable Prime Minister showed us leadership, the importance of transparency, and integrity. He kept us united. His top priority was saving lives, along with finding realistic solutions regarding the economic impact on our daily life. Because of his outstanding leadership, we're admired across the world, which is another distinguished privilege of being Canadian. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Epp.
Mr. Dave Epp (Chatham-KentLeamington, CPC): COVID-19 has emptied food banks across Canada, even in an agricultural community like Chatham-Kent, so Wes Thompson and James Rasmussen, along with Alysson Storey, Randi Bokor, Maureen Geddes, Chris and Terry Johnston, Jason King, Fannie Vavoulis and Brent Wilken, grew an idea into the community's largest-ever food drive. Project manager Morna McDonald estimates that over 3,000 volunteers ended up helping in the May 16 Miracle. Residents put non-perishable foodstuffs on their doorsteps, with drop-off centres organized for rural areas. Volunteer groups travelled predetermined routes while maintaining physical distancing. The community collected an amazing 678,000 pounds of food. They accidentally exceeded by over 20% the record in the Guinness World Records book for collected food in a single day. Chatham-Kent has restocked their food banks and reaffirmed their community pride. It's an honour to represent such a community.
The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Sarai. We have a point of order from Mr. d'Entremont.
Mr. Chris d'Entremont (West Nova, CPC): As much as I like seeing my friends on the big screens, there are no big screens yet, so we don't know who's on and who's not on. I was wondering if there was going to be a TV coming up soon here, Mr. Chair.
The Chair: There is a technical issue, and it is being worked on. We're working on it as we go through. The other alternative is that we suspend until we fix it. If it's okay, we'll just continue. I think we can all hear the members who are speaking. This is one of the realities of a virtual or hybrid system. Our next statement will go to Mr. Sarai.
Mr. Randeep Sarai (Surrey Centre, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair, and mabuhay to all the Filipino Canadians across this country. In June across Canada we recognize Filipino Heritage Month to raise awareness and celebrate the Filipino community. Here in Surrey Centre, and across Canada, the Filipino community makes important contributions to our cities and has helped shape Canada into the vibrant multicultural society that we all know and love today. Now more than ever, during these challenging times we must come together as Canadians to celebrate the rich heritage and history of our Filipino neighbours. Throughout June, please join me in celebrating our fellow citizens of Filipino descent by recognizing all the incredible ways in which they have contributed to making Canada a better place for all of us. Happy Filipino Heritage Month. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The Chair: Mr.Perron.
Mr. Yves Perron (BerthierMaskinong, BQ): Good afternoon, Mr.Chair. Today is World Milk Day, and I would like to recognize the exceptional work and dedication shown by everyone in the industry. They ensure we have a nutritious, high quality product every day. Let's take part in the local consumption movement and rediscover the exceptional products of our dairy producers and processors. Enjoy the yogurts, cheeses and other products because it's true that milk is good. I would also like to thank BrunoLetendre, outgoing chair of the Producteurs de lait du Qubec, and I congratulate the new chair, DanielGobeil. The dairy industry has been sacrificed several times in trade agreements. The government's broken promises are piling up. The payment of compensation is still uncertain. Action must be taken. The first step must be the direct allocation of import quotas to processors, and the second must be the full payment of the promised compensation. We demand a formal commitment from the government.
The Chair: We'll now continue with Mr.Iacono.
Mr. Angelo Iacono (Alfred-Pellan, Lib.): Mr.Chair, June is Italian Heritage Month. The situation is special this year, since Italy has been hard hit by COVID-19, with more than 30,000deaths. Like me, many Italian Canadians still have family and friends in Italy, and the news has sometimes been very difficult to take, yet that has not detracted from the great co-operation that exists between Canada and Italy. Today I would like to highlight the solidariet italiana in our community. During the pandemic, Canadians of Italian descent have been united to support anziani, our famiglie and our amici in Italy by participating in the fundraising campaign COVID-19 AiutiAMO lItalia to support the Italian Red Cross response activities. I send a special salute to to my cugino Giuseppe, who is still on the road to recovery from COVID-19.
The Chair: We'll continue with Mr. Kram.
Mr. Michael Kram (ReginaWascana, CPC): Mr. Chair, I would like to acknowledge all of the organizations in Saskatchewan and across Canada that are working hard to help small businesses adapt to the challenges of the current pandemic. In particular, I would like to thank the Regina Downtown Business Improvement District, or RDBID. As soon as the pandemic hit, RDBID launched a daily electronic newsletter to keep their members informed of support programs, local initiatives and local success stories. They have used their social media channels on a daily basis to promote takeout and delivery services, online and curbside services offered by restaurants and retailers. They have also launched a number of their own initiatives to help businesses access e-commerce. Through persistent communication and a lot of long hours, RDBID has helped businesses in downtown Regina to weather the storm. Because of their hard work, downtown Regina will come through this pandemic better than ever.
The Chair: Mr.Lauzon now has the floor.
Mr. Stphane Lauzon (ArgenteuilLa Petite-Nation, Lib.): Mr.Chair, high-speed Internet will be to the 21stcentury what electricity was to the 20th: an essential service. We are currently experiencing a drastic change in our morals, our consumption patterns and our socialization habits. We are turning to the Internet to read the news, contact our friends and complete our purchases. Isolation associated with COVID-19 has only accelerated this trend. Unfortunately, not all regions of Canada have reliable, affordable, high-speed access. I would like to reassure the citizens of my riding about the efforts that we are making as a government, but also about the work I've been doing as a member of Parliament since2015 to connect the 41municipalities of ArgenteuilLa Petite-Nation. Aside from this essential service, our students, seniors, entrepreneurs and telework are very important to the regions. We have heard you, and I will continue to fight for you, so that you can have access to affordable high-speed Internet.
The Chair: We'll now go on to Mr. MacKinnon.
Mr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.): Mr. Chair, a few days ago, we all watched with horror and outrage the death of an unarmed black man at the hands of the police in Minneapolis. For many of us, these images may seem shocking, but it's an all too familiar tale to millions of black people not only in the United States but also here in Canada, in my city of Gatineau and around the world, who must at times live with the scourge of anti-black racism. Mr.Chair, I can't know what it's like to be black in our society. What I do know, however, is that you and I, and everyone in this House, have the power and the responsibility to make our country more just. Let us all recommit ourselves to that endeavour. Black Canadians and all those who have to endure racism and discrimination are watching us, and they expect more from us.
The Chair: Mr. Duncan is next.
Mr. Eric Duncan (StormontDundasSouth Glengarry, CPC): Without a doubt, these past few months have been challenging, to say the least, from both a health and economic perspective, but, Mr. Chair, I have to say how proud I am of my community of StormontDundasSouth Glengarry. We continue to successfully flatten the curve in our region and, just as importantly, we are making sure that we are here for each other, whether it is the Cornwall Optimists' GoFeedMe campaign, the Iroquois-Matilda Lions Club delivering groceries to those who are quarantined in their households or the local United Way, the Social Development Council or the Carefor seniors support centre co-leading an effort to deliver 1,500 baskets to seniors in need. There have been many examples of kindness and generosity from our community. I rise today in the House of Commons to say thank you to my constituents and to all Canadians; to our essential front-line workers, our service clubs and our businesses that have stepped up to help out; and to everybody playing their part to get us through this challenge. I couldn't be more proud of my community and my residents, and it is an honour to serve as their member of Parliament. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The Chair: We'll now go to Ms. Yip.
Ms. Jean Yip (ScarboroughAgincourt, Lib.): Mr. Chair, although Asian Heritage Month has just passed, we recognize the tremendous effort of all Asian Canadians on the front lines of this pandemic, as health care providers or as essential workers. I want to thank the many Asian organizations for donating to ScarboroughAgincourt's hospital, long-term care homes and food banks. As a Canadian born and raised in Scarborough, I'm offended by the reports of violence and vandalism targeting Asian-Canadian communities across this country. In budget 2019 we invested $45 million to launch a new anti-racism strategy, which included the establishment of the anti-racism secretariat, because these efforts are unfortunately clearly still needed. As events continue to unfold in the United States, it is important to recognize that we have work to do here as well. Whether it is anti-black or anti-Asian, racism and discrimination of any kind have no place in Canadafull stop. Now more than ever, we must stand united in diversity.
The Chair: We'll now go on to Mr. Bragdon.
Mr. Richard Bragdon (TobiqueMactaquac, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Over the last few months, Canadians throughout New Brunswick and across the country have stepped up to support their community. Health care workers, truckers, farmers, business owners, pharmacists, grocery store staff, faith-based and non-profit organizations and so many others have all answered the call to do their part. Today, Mr. Chair, I would like to specifically highlight the work of those who support and take care of our seniors, who are among some of our most at-risk citizens. It has been said that the character of a nation and its people is revealed most in how they treat their most vulnerable. Our seniors have made immense contributions to our society. Many have put their lives on the line to protect Canada and the democratic freedoms we enjoy as Canadians. They have worked hard and made many sacrifices throughout their lives to make Canada the greatest nation on earth. Taking care of our seniors is the right thing to do. I want to take this opportunity to thank all those who are supporting and caring for our seniors. Whether they be long-term care staff, personal care workers, health care professionals, family members or volunteers, thank you for all you are doing in support of our seniors. Together we shall overcome.
The Chair: We'll now go to Ms. Shin.
Ms. Nelly Shin (Port MoodyCoquitlam, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Although we've come to the end of Asian Heritage Month, I'd like to acknowledge some unsung Chinese Canadian heroes who shed their blood as patriots for our nation. I commemorate the 6,500 Chinese Canadians of the 9,000 railway workers who helped build and unite Canada. I pay respect to the many Chinese Canadians who died while building the CP Railway on the most dangerous terrains in the B.C. segment. I honour the Chinese Canadians who served and died in World War II. Sadly, Asian communities in Canada face racist incidents today. No one should be afraid of walking in their own neighbourhood. Adult children should not have to call their elderly parents to tell them to stay home because they might be attacked by racists. There's no justification for racial slurs, physical violence or vandalism against any individual or community. I will continue to work together with other elected officials, the police and the RCMP to mitigate these issues toward justice and restoration.
The Chair: We'll go on to Mr. Angus. Mr. Angus, please proceed.
Mr. Charlie Angus (TimminsJames Bay, NDP): Ten years ago today, Cree youth leader Shannen Koostachin was killed in a horrific car accident. She was only 15 years old, yet in her short life she became the voice of a generation of first nation youth who were no longer willing to put up with systemic discrimination. Shannen had never seen a real school. Children in Attawapiskat were being educated in squalid conditions. Her fight for their dignity and rights launched the largest youth-driven civil rights movement in Canadian history. At 14 she was nominated for the International Children's Peace Prize. Shannen never lived to see the school that was built in her community, but her work carries on through the Shannen's Dream movement. She is a role model for youth activists across this country. A movie, two books and a statue are dedicated to her. She's been recognized as one of the 150 most influential women in Canadian history. I had the honour to know Shannen. In fact, I think of her every single day. She truly did come from the angels, and one day she returned.
The Chair: Mr.Barsalou-Duval, you now have the floor.
Mr. Xavier Barsalou-Duval (Pierre-BoucherLes PatriotesVerchres, BQ): Mr.Chair, for months now, thousands of consumers who need money to pay their bills have been fighting against airlines and the government to have their rights respected: three class action suits, a unanimous motion by the National Assembly and over 30,000signatures on a petition calling for reimbursement for cancelled flights. It isn't a whim to enforce the law. Air Canada, which confiscated $2.6billion from its customers, received more than $800million from Ottawa without any conditions. Yet, the company has a year's worth of cash in reserve, $6billion in its coffers, and is in the process of raising more than $1.4billion in the financial markets. Air Canada has the means to reimburse citizens. It has the money it needs. We're tired of the Minister of Transport's crocodile tears. I consulted the bankruptcy directory this morning and didn't see any airlines listed. Now is the time to work for the people.
The Chair: Mr.Rayes now has the floor.
Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC): Mr.Chair, I want to pay tribute to a great man who represented the public here, in the House, for close to 15years: MichelGauthier. Michel, in life, we meet a lot of people, but some of them leave their mark on us forever. From the first time I spoke with you two years ago, I immediately understood that I was talking with a man with heart, a passionate man, a man who had Quebec imprinted on his heart. Because of your decision to join the Conservative Party of Canada, I got to know you personally, and I am most grateful. I will remember our discussions on the best ways to communicate our Conservative vision to Quebeckers. I will remember our heated discussions on Quebec-Canada relations. I will remember all the passion and energy you had in the lead-up to a speech to our supporters. Michel, Canadians, Quebeckers and I will remember you forever, the great man you were, the outstanding speaker, a formidable parliamentarian, with integrity, passion, commitment and love for Quebec. I offer my sincere condolences to Anne, and to your family and friends. Rest in peace.
The Chair: Mr.Dubourg, you now have the floor.
Mr. Emmanuel Dubourg (Bourassa, Lib.): Mr.Chair, the murder of GeorgeFloyd in Minneapolis resonated strongly within black communities in Canada and also in the heart of Montreal North. At a time of pandemic uncertainty when members of our community find themselves on the front lines as essential workers, an event like this rekindles feelings of fear, powerlessness and injustice. It has happened once again in the UnitedStates, but we are not immune to such behaviour here, in Canada. Dear constituents of Bourassa, I know our stories, I feel with you the pain as a parent and as a black person. I know this constant fear for our children. As elected officials, we have the duty to protect your rights and to ensure harmony. We must be vigilant and work to deconstruct prejudice and discrimination.
The Chair: Before continuing, I'd like to give a reminder. To avoid sound problems, members participating in person shouldn't connect to the video conference. There seems to be some interference when you watch the video conference in the chamber and it's being transmitted, so let us make things run more smoothly. We will now proceed to the questioning of ministers. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes in order to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to replace each other safely. The first question goes to the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Scheer.
Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. When the government first starting rolling out programs to help Canadians get through this pandemic, we raised points about some flaws and gaps in the program. The government assured Canadians that it would fix these programs as time went on. Well, Canadians are suffering through both the health and the economic consequences of the lockdown related to the coronavirus. Here we are the first day of June and the government still has yet to address the flaws in its programs; it is still letting so many Canadians down. I have a series of very straightforward and specific questions. On April 20 we raised with the Minister of Finance the issue of companies that had purchased another company not being able to demonstrate revenue loss, and therefore not being eligible for the wage subsidy, even though both companies separately would have been able to do just that. We have raised it several times now. I would like to ask the government when it will be fixing this unnecessarily rigid aspect of the wage subsidy program.
Hon. Chrystia Freeland (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): Mr. Chair, I believe that a company with a fantastic Canadian history in the member's riding, Brandt Tractor, which pioneered the manufacturing of augers in Canada, is particularly affected by this. It is very important for us that the wage subsidy be available to as many Canadian companies as possible. It helps to keep employees connected to their businesses. Now, there are always some specific issues that can make it challenging for particular companies. I know that in the case of Brandt Tractor, for example, officials from the Ministry of Finance are directly in touch with the company to work on its issues.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, that's the same answer we got last week. It's the same answer we got two weeks before that, and it's the same answer we have been getting from day one. This is a very simple question. The government has indicated that it will change this program to allow for amalgamations. The solution is very simple. It is to also allow for those companies that have undergone acquisitions. This is a very specific question: Will the government fix this program and allow for companies that have acquired another company to still access the wage subsidy program?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, let me just point out that the wage subsidy program is working extremely well for many, many Canadian companies and for many, many Canadians who are able to keep their jobs thanks to the program. More than two million Canadian workers are today benefiting from the wage subsidy program. By any measure that is a successful program. Now, for sure there are always going to be companies which, because of specifics in their history, need specific attention, and that
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Scheer.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, reports indicate that up to half of the money allocated for the wage subsidy is going unspent, precisely because this government has left in unnecessarily rigid barriers for companies to be able to access it. It's a yes-or-no question, and the minister still can't answer it. Along the same lines, we asked on April 8 to allow businesses applying for the wage subsidy to demonstrate their 30% revenue loss using other metrics, such as loss of earnings, subscriptions and orders, in order to qualify. They still can't do that today, the first day of June. Why hasn't the government addressed this part of the program?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, we are very proud of the wage subsidy program and proud of the role it is playing to keep Canadian businesses going and, crucially, to keep Canadian workers connected to their jobs, but I have a question for the member opposite. Half of the questions we hear from the Conservatives in question period are concerns that we're spending too much money, that the deficit is too high. The other half of the time they complain about specific companies not getting access to our programs. We know which side we're on as a government. I'd like the Conservatives to let Canadians know what they believe in.
The Chair: Mr. Scheer, you may have a short question.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, it's quite clear what Conservatives believe in. We believe that when times were good, this government should have paid down debt instead of wasting money like $50 million to Mastercard and $12 million to Loblaws. The fact of the matter is that the government left Canadians in a vulnerable position as we were entering this pandemic precisely because of its fiscal irresponsibility, and now they have designed programs that have unnecessary barriers in them that prevent more and more Canadians from getting the help they need. Again, on April 26, Conservatives asked the Prime Minister to change the criteria for the Canada emergency business account so that small businesses that don't happen to have a business bank account can qualify. Why hasn't the Prime Minister made that change either?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, I'm really grateful for that question because it allows me to set the record straight for Canadians. Canadians need to know that our country has the lowest debt-to-GDP ratio in the G7. We had that before the crisis began, and we still do. Canada has the fiscal firepower to support Canadians during this unprecedented crisis, and that is what we are going to continue to do.
The Chair: Mrs.DeBellefeuille.
Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (SalaberrySurot, BQ): Mr.Chair, the wage subsidy was put in place to support businesses and SMEs, to avoid closures and bankruptcy. Have I missed something? Is the Liberal Party on the verge of bankruptcy? Is it about to shut down? Does the Prime Minister consider that the Liberal Party is getting ready to close its doors?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr.Chair, I thank the hon. member for the question. I want to point out that, as the hon. member said, the wage subsidy was really put in place to protect workers across Canada. We are proud of that. More than 2million Canadians have benefited from this
The Chair: Mrs.DeBellefeuille, you have the floor.
Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: Mr.Chair, the Liberal Party made $3million between January and March of this year. That's $3million in political donations. We're told that the emergency subsidy is being used to protect the jobs of Liberal Party employees. I'm not an accountant, but I can count. I'm wondering why the Liberal Party doesn't use its own money to pay its own employees instead of using the Canada emergency wage subsidy.
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: I thank the hon. member for her question. I would like to point out again that the purpose of the Canada emergency wage subsidy is to support workers across Canada and Quebec, to help them keep their jobs and allow them to stay connected to their workplace. That is what we've done. More than 2million Canadians are benefiting from this important and truly essential program for our country. We are proud of it.
Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: Mr.Chair, does the Deputy Prime Minister think it is moral, fair and honest that employees who have lost their jobs are subsidizing an emergency wage subsidy for the Liberal Party of Canada out of their taxes?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Our programs do not discriminate. They are there to help all workers. The hon. member talked about businesses and sectors that need more help. We agree. There is still a lot to do, but we want to work with all the
The Chair: Mrs.DeBellefeuille.
Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: Mr.Chair, many struggling businesses in Quebec don't have access to the Canada emergency wage subsidy because they don't meet the eligibility criteria. Many tourism and municipal organizations, among others, don't have access to this wage subsidy. However, it's very clear that the Liberal Party qualifies according to the program criteria. Does the Deputy Prime Minister really think it's moral for her party to benefit from the emergency wage subsidy when it has the financial means to pay its own employees?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: I thank the hon. member for her question. I agree that there is still a lot to do. We are ready, and we are taking action. However, it's important to point out that our government has already done a lot to support Canadians. We've spent $152billion in direct support measures to Canadians. More than eightmillion people are benefiting from the CERB, and more than twomillion
The Chair: Mrs.DeBellefeuille, you have the floor.
Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: Mr.Chair, what I understand is not really complicated to understand. I understand that the Liberal Party has money, that it has money to pay its employees, but that it doesn't want to cut the booty it has amassed for the next election. It's as if it were telling us that it's indirectly financing itself for the next election. Will the Deputy Prime Minister show some leadership and convince her own party to give up the emergency wage subsidy and even commit to paying back the money it has already received?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr.Chair, I want to point out that our programs do not discriminate. They are there to help all workers across the country, and I want to point out to what extent our programs do that. Eight million people are currently benefiting from the CERB, and two million are supported by the emergency wage subsidy. Our programs are also helping 380,000students and 639,000businesses
The Chair: We'll now continue with Mr. Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Canadians and people across the world are reeling after seeing the images of George Floyd being brutally killed in a callous and casual manner. We're struggling with the impacts of anti-black racism. Anti-black racism hasn't just appeared or increased. It's now simply being captured by video. Canada is also no different. Anti-black racism also impacts Canada, and people here are feeling the frustration of black lives being neglected and ignored. Will the government commit to tracking race-based data in terms of COVID-19's impact on communities, particularly black Canadians, and track race-based data so that we can have a better response based on the evidence?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, I would like to start by thanking the member opposite for his very important question and the very important work he has done throughout his career in drawing attention to racism in Canada and in fighting against it. Thank you. I agree strongly with the member opposite that we, as Canadians, must be the opposite of complacent. We have to acknowledge that anti-black racism is real in our country, that unconscious bias is real in our country and that systemic discrimination is real. It happens here. We have to commit today to working hard to fight it. I have more to say about disaggregated data and the coronavirus, and I hope I'll have a chance to do that in my next answer.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Thank you for that openness on the part of the government. I want more and clear commitments. We also know that race-based or discriminatory police practices still exist across Canada. Will the government commit to working with provinces to ensure there are no such practices allowed to exist in Canada, particularly related to discriminatory police practices like carding? Will the federal government work and use its powers to end those discriminatory practices where federal regulation applies, and work with the provinces to ensure this happens across the country?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Thank you again for that very important question. First of all, on coronavirus, our government believes that disaggregated data, including when it comes to race, is extremely important. We're working with our provincial partners on that. On policing, racial profiling is unacceptable and unlawful. We will always work to uphold the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and to ensure the human rights of everyone in Canada are protected. At the federal level, RCMP members are guided by bias-free policing based on equality and non-discrimination.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: I want to change tracks, Mr. Chair, and talk about long-term care. How many times did the Prime Minister's Office and the Liberal government meet with lobbyists from for-profit long-term care homes from March 25 to April 22, during the worst impacts of COVID-19 in long-term care homes?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, at this moment I can only speak for myself, and I have not met with any such lobbyists during that period or at other times. I share the member opposite's concerns about long-term care facilities in Canada. We have to do better, and we will.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: It was 12 times during the worst impacts of COVID-19. While seniors were dying in long-term care homes, the Prime Minister's Office and the Liberal government met with private, for-profit long-term care home lobbyists 12 times. Why did the Prime Minister's Office and the Liberal government choose to meet with these for-profit long-term care home lobbyists instead of meeting with those to solve the problem? Instead of making excuses about the federal government not playing a role, why didn't the Prime Minister and the Liberal government show leadership in calling for an end to profit in long-term care homes?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Let me very clear about one thing, speaking on behalf of our government and on behalf of the Prime Minister. Our government sees as a matter of utmost concern and utmost urgency what has been happening in long-term care homes in our country, and the reports we have received from the brave men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces about facilities in Ontario and Quebec need to be treated as historic documents that
The Chair: Now it's Mr.Rayes's turn. Mr.Rayes, you have the floor.
Mr. Alain Rayes: Mr.Chair, why is it that employers from industry, businesses and community organizations that have been approved in the Canada summer jobs program still haven't received the money they're entitled to?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development): We are ensuring that the Canada summer jobs program is strengthened and enforced. We are making it more available to more students. We have lengthened the time period that the program
The Chair: Mr.Rayes has the floor.
Mr. Alain Rayes: Every day, the Prime Minister makes announcements in front of his residence. I'll repeat my question. Given the importance of the program for our youth who are looking to work, how is it that the organizations haven't yet received the money they need to hire students? As we know, there have been some problems with the CESB.
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Our government is working hard to help employers adapt to the realities of COVID-19. We recognize the important role that the Canada summer jobs program plays in supporting employers and young workers in communities across the country every year. That is why we have introduced flexibilities in the Canada summer jobs program to hire youth while providing more supports to employers.
Mr. Alain Rayes: The minister can say whatever he wants. Last year, there was no crisis and, as of April, all employers who had been admitted to the program had received the money. We are currently in a crisis. The government is trying to respond quickly to the needs. Right now, community organizations are not receiving the money to which they are entitled to hire students, to put them to work and to give them an employment opportunity. Why?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr. Chair, we have managed to introduce flexibilities to take into consideration the difficult environment of the COVID-19 pandemic. As such, the flexibilities we've introduced into the Canada summer jobs program will help with more hiring of youth and more supports to employers, including non-profits and businesses that deliver essential services to Canadians. These changes will help small businesses hire and keep the workers that they need in the Canada summer jobs program.
Mr. Alain Rayes: The young people and employers listening to us must be very surprised by what the minister is saying. He mentioned that the rules are now more flexible. However, it is taking a month and a half longer than last year. The money has not yet been given out. I have done my homework. I went to see what was happening in my riding and in about 10other ridings. Last year, in my riding, all the money had been deposited before April. Right now, there is a $240,000shortfall for about 60student jobs, and the minister has the nerve to tell us that the government has provided more flexibility. Why is the money not available if the government wants to act quickly, to help the economy recover and to help young people?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr. Chair, indeed we are acting quickly. We are listening to the needs of the employers to make sure that this program works not only for them but also for youth, and that it gives them the experiences they need. It is adapted better for the COVID-19 pandemic to ensure that youth have the experience they need to gain life and work skills from the program. It's a great program, and we're making it work not just for businesses but also for non-profits.
Mr. Alain Rayes: Here is the reality. Last week, the owner of a hardware store in a village in my riding had to close his business because he was unable to hire students and had no one to work. This morning, an employer called me to tell me that his request to hire a student had been accepted, but that the delay meant that he could not proceed with the hiring. This means that one more young person will not have a job. That young person will therefore have to receive the CESB. There is the reality. When is the government going to release the money required for young people to be able to work?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr. Chair, I join the honourable member in recognizing that in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic there are some difficulties in terms of structuring the program and making sure that employers are able to access it. That is why we've introduced flexibilities to ensure that employers are able to access the program and that youth are also able to take advantage of the program to gain important work skills, especially in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic and especially in providing essential services that serve their fellow Canadians. It's a great program. We're doing everything that we can to work through some of those obstacles.
The Chair: We'll now continue with Ms. Shin.
Ms. Nelly Shin: Thank you, Mr. Chair. By its own numbers, PSPC has had to cut the number of N95 masks the government has on order after cancelling contracts with companies that were not able to meet Canadian standards. We know that companies right here in Canada were willing to step up and fill in the gap. Will the minister commit to making domestic production of PPE, including N95 masks, a priority?
The Chair: The honourable minister.
Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement): Mr. Chair, our priority is to make sure that we get safe and effective equipment and supplies into the hands of front-line health care workers. We've been running multiple complementary supply chains at the same time. Building up domestic capacity is indeed a priority. We have a contract with Medicom in Montreal for the production of N95 masks and we will continue to work hard to ensure
The Chair: We'll go back to Ms. Shin.
Ms. Nelly Shin: Mr. Chair, Novo Textiles, a company in my riding, has retooled its factory to produce surgical masks in response to the shortage of PPE in Canada. Additionally, it will soon be producing quality made-in-Canada N95 masks using Canadian designs and Canadian-made machinery. My constituent has invested his own capital and is in active production supplying front-line workers right now, not just talking about it. However, the company's application to NGen was recently rejected. Canada needs masks now, masks that meet Canadian standards. Is the government serious about growing domestic production capacity, or is it all talk and no action?
Hon. Anita Anand: In reality, we have received 101.3 million surgical masks that are being distributed out to provinces and territories. We have signed 24 contracts with domestic companies for the production of PPE right here at home. We are working very hard, Mr. Chair, to make sure Canadian front-line health care workers have exactly what they need to fight this pandemic.
Ms. Nelly Shin: Mr. Chair, how many of these have received financial support from the government?
Hon. Anita Anand: Mr. Chair, I'm not quite sure what the member is referring to by how many of these, but as I said, we have signed 24 contracts with domestic
The Chair: We'll have to go back to Ms. Shin.
Ms. Nelly Shin: Where are these manufacturers located?
Hon. Anita Anand: Mr. Chair, we have surgical masks being produced right here at home, as well as abroad, being brought into Canada
The Chair: Back to Ms. Shin.
Ms. Nelly Shin: What provinces are they in?
Hon. Anita Anand: Mr. Chair, as I said, we have a contract with General Motors for the production of surgical masks
The Chair: Ms. Shin.
Ms. Nelly Shin: Are there any in any provinces besides Ontario and Quebec?
Hon. Anita Anand: Mr. Chair, we have contracts with multiple provinces throughout this country for the production of personal protective equipment. We are committed
The Chair: Back to Ms. Shin.
Ms. Nelly Shin: How many of these domestic manufacturers rely on supply chains in China?
Hon. Anita Anand: Mr. Chair, we are dealing with a situation of very high global demand for the same product. As a result, we
The Chair: We'll go back to Ms. Shin.
Ms. Nelly Shin: Will the Minister commit to providing my office with answers to these questions? Thank you.
Hon. Anita Anand: I will commit, Mr. Chair, to continuing to work hard for Canadians to supply the personal protective equipment that they need. We have been giving updated numbers on our website
The Chair: We'll go back to Ms. Shin.
Ms. Nelly Shin: I'm going to assume that answer is no. Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister introduced the Canada student service grant on April 22. Students were told details would arrive in a matter of weeks. It's been over a month, the I Want To Help platform has no details yet about eligibility, levels of funding, or how to apply. Post-secondary students are already one-quarter into their summer break. When can students expect to start applying for the CSSG so they can receive their grants? Thank you.
The Chair: The honourable minister.
Hon. Bardish Chagger (Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth): Mr. Chair, I'm pleased to share that students can anticipate more programs coming out as soon as possible. The I Want to Help website will be launched. Students can already apply for Canada summer jobs if they go to jobbank.gc.ca. By visiting Canada.ca/coronavirus, you'll see a suite of programs to ensure that students and young people are able to succeed. The coronavirus will not win, and our government will continue investing in our leaders of today and tomorrow.
The Chair: The next set of questions goes to Mr. Brassard.
Mr. John Brassard (BarrieInnisfil, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Last week the President of the Treasury Board wrote a letter to his cabinet colleagues in which he said that, as the federal minister responsible for public access to government information, he has advised his cabinet colleagues of the need for transparency and accountability, even in times of crisis. My question is for the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities. Does she agree with the President of the Treasury Board's directive?
The Chair: The honourable minister.
Hon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage): Mr. Chair, the government remains committed to maintaining the openness and transparency of our government during this challenging time. The Government of Canada, along with provincial and territorial governments, have implemented exceptional workplace measures to curb the spread of COVID-19, and to protect the health and safety of federal employees. These measures have had an impact on institutions' abilities to respond to access to information and personal information requests, since most employees are now working from their homes.
Mr. John Brassard: Frankly, I'm surprised that the answer is coming from that minister when the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities is in the House, but I will ask this question. Can the minister tell Canadians who Pierre Lavalle is?
Hon. Steven Guilbeault: Treasury Board Secretariat has provided guidance to institutions to continue to make the best efforts to respond to Access to Information Act and Privacy Act requests and to provide published content
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Brassard.
Mr. John Brassard: Can the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities tell us who Pierre Lavalle is?
The Chair: The honourable minister.
Hon. Catherine McKenna (Minister of Infrastructure and Communities): Mr. Chair, of course. Pierre Lavalle was the former CEO of the Canada Infrastructure Bank. We are very proud that we now have Michael Sabia as the new chair of the Infrastructure Bank. He did a fabulous job in Montreal at
The Chair: We'll now go back to Mr. Brassard.
Mr. John Brassard: Can the minister tell me how long Mr. Lavalle was the CEO of the Infrastructure Bank?
Hon. Catherine McKenna: Mr. Chair, I can't give you the exact months. He was the CEO of the Canada Infrastructure Bank since the beginning, but let's be clear: Crown corporations work at arm's length from the government and must have
The Chair: We'll return to Mr. Brassard.
Mr. John Brassard: Can I ask the minister how well she knows her file: 50%, 75% or 100%?
Hon. Catherine McKenna: Mr. Chair, that's quite a condescending little comment. I'd like to say that I know my file very well. What I know is that Canadians want infrastructure built, they want it built across the country, in the member opposite's riding and in ridings across the country. They want cleaner, healthier, more connected Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Brassard.
Mr. John Brassard: How much of the $35 billion of infrastructure money that was allocated to that bank has been spent so far?
Hon. Catherine McKenna: Mr. Chair, the Infrastructure Bank is a new, more flexible financing model for infrastructure investments. It was set up; it is now in its new phase. We're very excited that it's going to be moving forwardand stay tuned.
Mr. John Brassard: In the context of Mr. Duclos' advice to his cabinet colleagues about openness and transparency, I'd like to ask the minister how much Mr. Lavalle was paid annually.
Hon. Catherine McKenna: Mr. Chair, as I said, Crown corporations work at arm's length from the government. Our government follows the Privacy Act and the Access to Information Act when it comes to employee compensation, but remuneration ranges are publicly available. I'd note that this information for the bank's CEOs has been in the public domain
The Chair: Mr. Brassard.
Mr. John Brassard: Mr. Chair, I'm asking the minister how much Mr. Lavalle made. There was no answer to that. If it is in the public realm, she should know that. She said she knows her file very well. How much of a bonus was Mr. Lavalle paid recently when he left on April 2?
Hon. Catherine McKenna: Mr. Chair, I am not involved in HR discussions when it comes to the Canada Infrastructure Bank and Mr. Lavalle. Crown corporations work at arm's length from the government. They need to have flexibility to meet their commercial mandates. As I say, the information about salary ranges is publicly available, but personal HR
The Chair: Mr. Brassard.
Mr. John Brassard: Mr. Chair, could you stop my...? I'm hearing....
The Chair: I would ask those of us virtually to mute. Mr. Brassard, there is about 15 seconds left. I'll cue you for a very short question.
Mr. John Brassard: Thank you, Mr. Chair. According to a table, Mr. Lavalle could have received a bonus after year one of zero to 75% of his base salary, which was $510,000 to $600,000 per year; or in year two, which he was in, zero to 120% of his base salary. How much of a bonus did he receive?
Hon. Catherine McKenna: The rate of any remuneration paid to the chief executive officer is based on the recommendations of the board. Our government follows the Privacy Act and the Access to Information Act when it comes to employee compensation. Let me say this: We're very excited about the new phase of the Canada Infrastructure Bank. We have Michael Sabia there as the new board chair. We need to move forward on
The Chair: We'll now continue with Mr. Chong.
Hon. Michael Chong (WellingtonHalton Hills, CPC): Thank you, Chair. Parliament's now been suspended for three months, since Friday, March 13. Will the government commit to reopening the House of Commons with its full powers, with social distancing, on Monday, September 21?
The Chair: The honourable minister.
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): Mr. Chair, as my colleague knows, we're meeting here four days a week, with questions on any topic for an hour and 35 minutes instead of 45 minutes a day. Democracy is as important for us as it is for the opposition.
Hon. Michael Chong: Mr. Chair, this committee is neutered. It has no powers to introduce supply day motions, no powers to test government confidence, no powers to do the usual things that Parliament does. At times of crisis, the bedrock principles of rule of law and democracy are tested, and our democratic principles are buckling under the pressure from this government. They came to office promising greater transparency, but they broke almost every one of their promises. They broke their promise on electoral reform. They appointed an anti-Conservative organization, Unifor, to the media bailout fund. In the last parliament, they tried to give the PMO control over this legislature in Motion No. 6, and in the last election, they rigged the leaders' debates in their favour, and now they have suspended Parliament. Instead of this neutered committee that meets for only a few days with a few members, will the government commit to the full re-opening of this House with all its powers with social distancing on Monday, September 21?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Mr.Chair, the government's objective is always to try to resume Parliament as it was before. Today, we have to live with this pandemic, but we will do everything we can to return to a normal situation as quickly as possible. That is clear and precise. The opposition asked for more time, especially to ask questions, and that is what it got. I would like my colleague to tell me one thing. Over the past few weeks, we have sent suggestions to opposition members about the operation of Parliament and they have never responded. I would like to know why.
Hon. Michael Chong: Mr. Chair, the full parliament with its full powers sat through two world wars, previous pandemics and the October crisis in 1970. The governments of those days did not seek the suspension of the House. The government is not only failing to defend democracy here but also abroad. It can't utter the word Taiwan. It is failing to be strong and clear on Hong Kong and, while the situation today is not that of decades past, it is clear that Canada in the past stood for the rights of people in Hong Kong. Canada needs to take much stronger diplomatic action on Hong Kong. There are some 300,000 Canadians living there, and they are looking for the government's support. When will this government act? When will it threaten economic sanctions like the U.S. administration has? When will it provide asylum and a clear path to citizenship like the U.K. government has? When will it speak up against the Communist Party of China's United Front workers operating here in this country? When will it do like Australia did in calling for an international investigation of COVID-19, and organize an international coalition of like-minded democracies to defend Hong Kongers and the violation of the Sino-British treaty?
The Chair: The honourable minister.
Hon. Franois-Philippe Champagne (Minister of Foreign Affairs): Mr. Chair, I'll remind the member to look at our statement of May 28. It's already done. Canada has spoken to the world; Canada has spoken up. We've made a first declaration with our colleagues in Australia and the U.K. to say that we have deep concerns. We all know that the one country, two systemsthe high degree of liberty and freedom enjoyed by the people in Hong Konghas made Hong Kong what it is today, a beacon when it comes to trade and financing. We know that and have expressed deep concern. Again, on May 28, with the United States, with the United Kingdom and with Australia, Canada was front and centre in saying that we have deep concerns that the imposition of a national security law by Beijing would undermine the very foundation, the very principles that have made Hong Kong so successful. We said that we and our international partners would look at the implications and the ramifications that this might have on our arrangement. I've called for a meeting of our Five Eyes partners tonight. I'll be chairing a meeting of our Five Eyes partners with the foreign ministers. We will be discussing it and will continue to raise our voices to stand up for the people of Hong Kong, and we will do it with our allies.
The Chair: We will now go to Mr. Maguire.
Mr. Larry Maguire (BrandonSouris, CPC): Mr. Chair, farmers have contacted my office about the massive delays with processing the advance payment program loans. Some put their applications in almost two months ago, and not a dollar has flowed. What's the point of having an advance payment program if there's no payment? Can the Minister of Agriculture tell us when these delays will end?
The Chair: The honourable minister.
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food): Mr.Chair, I can assure you that we are working with all the independent operators. This program is not administered by their officials, but by partners. I can assure you that, under the circumstances, they are doing their best to make the advance payments
Mr. Larry Maguire: Farmers understand that some of the delays were caused by staff having to work remotely. However, did the minister approve a policy change on April 1 that made the eligibility for these loans more difficult during the middle of a pandemic, yes or no?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, a number of changes and improvements have been made to the program. To make things easier for our administrators, we have postponed some of the changes that could have been problematic.
Mr. Larry Maguire: Yes, so some of the changes made it more problematic for the producers. The minister must take responsibility for these delays. Farmers deserve an answer on why she changed the program. Who advised her that it would be a good idea to make it more difficult for the farmers to access the advance payment program in the middle of a pandemic? Or did she just go ahead and do this on her own?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, we are constantly working with the administrators of the program. We are fully prepared to respond to their requests so that the advance payments program can best serve our producers across the country.
Mr. Larry Maguire: Livestock producers are telling me that the premiums for the western livestock insurance program are too high. I told the Minister of Agriculture over two weeks ago that this was a problem, and yet she went out and said that farmers needed to make better use of existing support. When will the Minister of Agriculture listen to what the farmers are saying so they can actually use the existing programs?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, I would like to remind everyone that we have put in place certain measures to improve access to AgriStability. We have also significantly improved the AgriRecovery program. Over the past few years, this program amounted to about $15million. It is now $100million for pork and beef producers alone, not counting the $77.5million for food processors.
Mr. Larry Maguire: Livestock producers in my riding and several across Canada are still waiting for the Minister of Agriculture's promise for an AgriRecovery program. When will the Minister of Agriculture stop rubbing salt in the farmers' wounds and provide the rest of the story she has been saying is on its way for over a month now in her AgriRecovery promise?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, we have committed $50million to beef producers and $50million to pork producers through the AgriRecovery program. Here is how the program works: the federal government contributes up to60% and then the provinces implement it how they see fit.
Mr. Larry Maguire: The funding announced by the Minister of Agriculture for the livestock industry was insufficient, and what was promised has not been delivered. This has caused hogs to be euthanized and over 100,000 feeder cattle to become overweight. The industry is in a crisis. How many livestock producers need to go bankrupt before they get the help they deserve?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, once again, we have significantly increased the amounts available through AgriRecovery. It is $50million for beef producers and $50million for pork producers. These programs are administered by the provinces. There is also $77.5million for processors.
The Chair: Ms.Chabot, you have the floor.
Hon. Dominic LeBlanc: Mr.Chair, we know that not everyone experiences economic recovery in the same way. In some sectors, such as tourism, fishery, hotels and restaurants, we do not know when activity will resume or whether it will resume slowly. This is a major concern for workers, because they do not know what will happen tomorrow. They do not know how much they will be able to earn this summer. Given that the CERB lasts 16weeks, they are all afraid that they will be left with nothing. Without a job, they have no income. Will the Minister of Finance announce now that he is extending the CERB?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr. Chair, we moved very quickly at the early onset of the COVID-19 pandemic to support workersthose who have lost their jobs, who were laid off, or those whose jobs simply disappearedthrough the Canada emergency response benefit. It has provided immense support to the over eight million Canadian workers who have applied to the CERB. We will continue to support those workers throughout the COVID-19 pandemic period.
Ms. Louise Chabot: Mr.Chair, my question was clear. We know why the CERB was put in place. It does not need to be explained to us again. For some workers, the CERB will end tomorrow morning. There will be no recovery in their sector. Examples include bars, sports training, arts and culture. They don't know when they will start up again. Is the government prepared to extend the Canada emergency response benefit now?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr. Chair, the workers that the honourable member identified, including those who were not eligible for the EI, were also covered by the Canada emergency response benefit. We moved quickly. We recognized the urgency of the situation, which is why we took action to support workers and their families through the Canada emergency response benefit. We have processed over eight million applications through that benefit. We will continue to support Canadian workers at this very difficult time.
Ms. Louise Chabot: Mr.Chair, are we going to continue to help workers in these difficult times? The answer is simple. Some don't know what they are going to do tomorrow morning. They do not know whether they will have an income to pay their bills. They have families, they have other needs. The CERB is going to end. This is the last period for some people. Can you do anything about it? Can I walk out of the House today and tell all those people that the CERB is going to be extended?
Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance): Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the honourable member for her question. We will clearly maintain our approach. We will look at how we can improve and change our programs, such as the wage subsidy. Of course, we are looking at how we can gradually reopen our economy by continuing to help people to be in a good position.
Ms. Louise Chabot: Mr.Chair, we are making progress. Yes, the decision is to extend the wage subsidy. I think we must do the same with the CERB, which is about to end. Another important commitment is the employment incentives. I don't know about you, but we see it in our ridings. People are scared because the economy is reopening in certain sectors. People are afraid to go back to work. People are afraid to go back to full-time jobs because they are afraid of losing all their emergency benefits. This affects workers and students alike. Are you prepared to take action on this issue? You have also promised to implement employment incentives.
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, we know that, with a responsible reopening of the economy, we have to look at our programs to make sure that we are keeping and protecting people. That continues to be our approach. We will look at changes and improvements. In that way, we will continue our responsible reopening of the economy.
The Chair: We are going to take a break so that our employees can change shifts without jeopardizing their health. While we have a few seconds, I would also like to remind members to address their questions to the chair, not directly to the ministers.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC)): We'll now carry on. We'll go to Mr. Easter in Malpeque.
Hon. Wayne Easter (Malpeque, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be splitting my time with the member for Brampton North. Today, June 1, under the auspices of the Food and Agriculture Organization, we celebrate World Milk Day. World Milk Day allows us to emphasize the importance of milk as a global food, its benefits for our health as well as our nutrition; and to celebrate the dairy sector, from the primary producers to the processors who ensure that our many high-quality dairy products get to the marketplace. Canadians are fortunate to have a thriving dairy sector that, under supply management, provides high-quality products at reasonable prices to consumers. Even under supply management though, dairy farmers have found themselves facing difficult challenges as a result of recent trade agreements and sudden market shocks as a result of the pandemic. Mr. Chair, to acknowledge World Milk Day, I'd love to be able to raise a glass of wholesome white or chocolate milk, but we can't do that. On the other hand, I must ask the Minister of Agriculture what the government is doing to support the dairy sector in these times so we can celebrate World Milk Day next year with more vim and vigour.
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to thank Mr. Easter, from the great riding of Malpeque in Prince Edward Island. Today it is particularly important to thank families working on the 11,000 dairy farms across the country, caring for 1.4 million cows to produce each year more than 9.3 billion litres of milk of the highest quality. The dairy sector in Canada is made up of more than 220,000 Canadians and foreign workers who dedicate their lives to feed us. While our society lives through unprecedented changes, the dairy sector demonstrates its resilience and proves more than ever the value of the supply management system. It is why we increased by $200 million the borrowing capacity of the Canadian Dairy Commission to improve its butter and cheese storage programs, giving the flexibility to manage the surplus of milk and support its mandate. Over the past few years, we have invested in dairy farms and given direct compensation to dairy farmers through trade agreements with Europe and Asia. We will do the same for the new NAFTA. Raise a glass for World Milk Day.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now go to Ms. Sahota in Brampton North.
Ms. Ruby Sahota (Brampton North, Lib.): Mr. Chair, last week a horrific video surfaced showing the killing of an unarmed black man at the hands of the Minneapolis police. George Floyd's death was the latest in a series of unwarranted deaths of black men and women at the hands of police. Since his death, solidarity protests have erupted across cities in the United States and all over the world asking for justice and a stop to systemic dehumanization of black people. I wish I could say we are, but sadly we are not immune to the reality of what is happening south of the border. The same protests taking place in New York, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Berlin, Paris and London are also taking place in our own backyard. In cities like Montreal and Toronto, thousands of people have already taken to the streets, not only to decry anti-black racism but also to ask for tangible solutions to effectively combat anti-black racism. We don't have to wait for pain, suffering and outrage to boil to the surface to act. There's nothing we know today that we didn't already know. As Canadians are demonstrating and calling on their society and governments to do better, can the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth tell us what this government is doing to address anti-black racism in Canada and to ensure we are evening the playing field for black Canadians?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable minister.
Hon. Bardish Chagger: Mr. Chair, the MP for Brampton North is correct. Anti-black racism, racism and discrimination are present in Canada. With COVID-19, we have even seen a rise in anti-Asian racism. We all must speak out against racism and discrimination. Keeping silent is to condone these horrific acts. These acts don't have to be violent or result in the loss of life to be wrong. In fact, the actions of Amy Cooper shone a light on the stealth racism that exists. We must acknowledge inequities in our institutions and in people's lived experiences. If we as Canadians truly desire an inclusive Canada, every single one of us must step up, be an ally and do what we can to make workplaces, communities and public spaces safer. Our government has started this work. The open, transparent, merit-based appointment process is resulting in decision-making tables better reflecting Canadians. We recognize the UN International Decade for People of African Descent; the applications for capacity building in black Canadian communities are being assessed; the anti-racism secretariat is set up for Canadians but also for government departments to improve their systems, including advancement opportunities; and the recently announced immunity task force will provide disaggregated data to decision-makers because decisions need to be based on science and evidence. This work is by no means finished. Although our government is moving in the right decision, there is clearly a lot more work to do and we are committed to doing that work with communities as allies, as partners.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll go to Mr. Duvall from Hamilton Mountain.
Mr. Scott Duvall (Hamilton Mountain, NDP): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will be splitting my time with the member for ElmwoodTranscona. Mr. Chair, workers' unions, business leaders and analysts across the country are raising a huge alarm over potential bankruptcies due to COVID-19. Thousands of Canadian workers are exposed and vulnerable. For years the government has promised to change the laws to protect workers from corporate bankruptcy, but has failed to deliver. Will this government fix the law before more Canadian workers lose their hard-earned pensions?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable minister.
Hon. Filomena Tassi (Minister of Labour): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to thank the member for Hamilton Mountain for that question and for his advocacy on this file. I remind the member that since 2015 one of our first initiatives was the repealing of Bills C-525 and C-377, which were anti-union legislation. Since then, we've implemented a number of measures to protect workers. We've increased the wage earner protection program by extending it from four weeks to seven weeks. The member is well aware that in 2019
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now go back to Mr. Duvall.
Mr. Scott Duvall: Mr. Chair, the changes the government made last year to bankruptcy insolvency laws were largely cosmetic and won't protect workers' and pensioners' livelihoods once bankruptcy hits. The government can protect severance, termination pay, pensions and benefits from corporate theft, but will they do it, yes or no?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable minister.
Hon. Filomena Tassi: Mr. Chair, we made a number of significant changes in budget 2019, including that the process for the CCAA be more open and transparent. We mandated that those who are coming to the process have to be honest and truthful. One thing we heard in the consultations was the ability for courts to set aside executive bonuses, and we implemented all those changes because we want to continue to protect pensioners.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): You have time for a short question, Mr. Duvall.
Mr. Scott Duvall: Thanks, Mr. Chair. The minister isn't answering the question. Canadian workers are worried. This is about their livelihoods. Will the government fix the lawsyes or noto protect workers' and pensioners' rights?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable minister.
Hon. Filomena Tassi: Mr. Chair, we have made amendments, and we are going to continue to make amendments. We want to absolutely ensure that pensions are protected. I look forward to working collaboratively with the member.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now go to Mr. Blaikie, ElmwoodTranscona.
Mr. Daniel Blaikie (ElmwoodTranscona, NDP): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Twice, following negotiations with the NDP, the government has committed to provide direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities. I'm wondering when those people can expect the government to announce the details of that assistance.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable minister.
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr. Chair, we are committed to advancing on the issues that have been identified by Canadians with disabilities. We are continuing that engagement, and we will have more to say on that very soon.
Mr. Daniel Blaikie: I think that answer is entirely inadequate. I have a lot of sympathy for people across the country who are living with disabilities and are getting impatient with the fact that alongside its initial commitment to seniors, for instance, the government made a commitment to helping people living with disabilities with the same kind of direct financial assistance, and it hasn't come. Why has it taken so long for the government to get around to helping people who are in a crisis right now? I want to know the reason why this hasn't been announced yet.
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr. Chair, we have established the COVID-19 disability advisory group, comprising experts in disability inclusion. We're moving forward with the Canada emergency student benefit, which will provide $2,000 per month for eligible students with permanent disabilities. We are doubling the Canada student grants for students with disabilities in the coming academic year. We have done a lot, but we will continue to do more, and we will have more to share on our continuing efforts to support persons with disabilities.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Go ahead, Mr. Blaikie. You have time for one short question.
Mr. Daniel Blaikie: Their commitment was not around an advisory commitment. Their commitment was for direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities who are facing additional costs because of the pandemic. They have committed twice and they have done nothing. When are they going to get around to it? Why should people living with disabilities have to wait any longer than they already have?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable minister.
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr. Chair, that is precisely why we are listening closely to the COVID-19 disability advisory group to get expert advice. We will have more to share. There is more work to come, and there will be results to be announced very soon.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now go to Mr. McLean, Calgary Centre.
Mr. Greg McLean (Calgary Centre, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. According to La Presse, federal cabinet ministers Steven Guilbeault , Catherine McKenna and Jonathan Wilkinson have been handed responsibility for crafting an economic recovery plan that aims to accelerate the green shift. True to form, this cabal around the Prime Minister has declared let's not let a good crisis go to waste. Can the Prime Minister confirm that his ministers have been working with environmental lobby groups for further financial support to engineer Canada's economy post COVID?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable Minister of Middle Class Prosperity.
Hon. Mona Fortier (Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance): Mr. Chair, our most urgent priority is COVID-19 and the health and safety of Canadians. As we support Canadians through this time, we will also ensure our long-term economic, environmental and physical well-being. Our government remains committed to building a stronger and more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable, prosperous future for our kids and grandkids. Just like science is guiding us in our response to COVID-19, science will continue to guide us toward reduced pollution and in fighting climate change.
Mr. Greg McLean: The task force for a resilient recovery was quoted as saying last week that they would have recommendations for government action available within eight weeks, notably eight weeks when Parliament is, by this government's design, absent. Can the Prime Minister disclose to this committee how many meetings his 61 environmental activist advisers have had with the task force or its members?
Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr.Chair, our most urgent priority with respect to COVID-19 is the health and safety of Canadians. While supporting Canadians during this period, we must also ensure our economic, environmental and physical well-being in the long term. Our government remains committed to building a stronger, more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable future for our grandchildren and children.
Mr. Greg McLean: The task force is a who's who of academics and bureaucrats, but surprisingly, includes no one from the productive part of the Canadian economy. So much for pan-Canadian input. The task force is reviewing work produced by Smart Prosperity, a government-funded institute whose membership overlaps with both the task force and the government's own Canadian Institute for Climate Choices. This is a bureaucratic environmental Ponzi scheme, with overlapping personnel and mandates. The only thing not overlapping is their funding. How many organizations does this government need to fund to recycle work produced by other redundant government-funded entities?
Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr.Chair, as we know, our priority right now is the health and safety of Canadians. Just as science guides us in our response to COVID-19, it will continue to guide us in reducing pollution and fighting climate change. Our priority is to support Canadians during this period and we must also ensure our environmental, economic and physical well-being in the long term.
Mr. Greg McLean: A notable member of the task force in question is one Gerald Butts. Perhaps it's just a coincidence, but can the Prime Minister confirm if this is the same Gerald Butts who was forced to resign as his principal secretary for his role in attempting to force Canada's then justice minister into breaking the law?
Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr.Chair, since the beginning of this crisis, our priority has been to support Canadians and their health and safety. We will continue to do so, because it is important that we get through this crisis by supporting Canadians.
Mr. Greg McLean: Mr. Chair, is this the same Gerald Butts who was paid $360,000 U.S. by an American-funded organization after he started working with the Prime Minister?
Hon. Mona Fortier: Once again, Mr.Chair, it is important to talk to Canadians right now to tell them that we are putting their health and safety first. We will continue to do so. We are going through a crisis right now and we will support Canadians.
Mr. Greg McLean: Mr. Chair, is this the same Gerald Butts who, in his role as the principal secretary in the office of Ontario's then premier, advanced policies that now saddle Ontarians with the highest energy costs in North America? Is this is the same Gerald Butts who weighed down Ontario with the world's highest subnational debt burden, all for the benefit of new green jobs that, notably, have never arrived?
Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr.Chair, as we know, for the past two and a half months, we have been supporting Canadians. We have put forward an economic program to help businesses, workers and Canadians across the country. We will continue to make the health and safety of Canadians a priority.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now go to the MP for West Nova, Mr. d'Entremont.
Mr. Chris d'Entremont: Yesterday, the Minister responsible for tourism, ACOA and official languages was happy to close our national Tourism Week by announcing investments of $70 million to offset financial losses in the tourism industry across Canada. Where's the big clap? Some hon. members: Hear, hear! Mr. Chris d'Entremont: There you go, give her a clap. More than $70 million will be invested to support this sector and promote Canadian destinations. Southern Ontario received $30 million, northern Ontario received $7 million and western Canada received $3.5 million. There's nothing for Atlantic Canada yet. Knowing that we just had an announcement from the Minister of Transport that there will be no cruise ships in Atlantic Canada or anywhere in Canada this year, resulting in hundreds of millions of dollars in losses, where is the program for Atlantic Canada?
Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages): Mr. Chair, I commend my colleague for his important question. I know he's a very strong advocate for the tourism sector in Atlantic Canada, so I want to reassure him. Obviously, we want to support the tourism sector in Atlantic Canada. ACOA has a clear direction to do just that. If he has any good ideas, please let him come forward and let's have a conversation. Meanwhile, Atlantic Canada will also be supported through Destination Canada. Rather than doing marketing internationally, we will be supporting destination marketing organizations across the country, including in Atlantic Canada, to make sure that we launch this new movement to visit local.
Mr. Chris d'Entremont: That would be all great if we weren't in the middle of a pandemic and you can't even cross the Nova Scotia-New Brunswick border without having to self-isolate for two weeks. It's going to make travelling, through the Maritimes at least, very difficult. In Saint John, New Brunswick, 79 cruise ships and more than 270,000 passengers will not be giving back to that local community. At home in Nova Scotia, it's about 118 or 130 vessels. In terms of a minimum financial loss, $165 million will not be generated. There will be job losses and permanent closures of restaurants and boardwalk shops. Prince Edward Island, which was expected to have a record attendance year, will lose visits of 97 ships and 154,000 passengers, and $60 million to the province's economy will be lost. Mr. Chair, my question to the minister is this: Who is ACOA going to be working with, and what kinds of programs are going to be available to help them through this very difficult year?
Hon. Mlanie Joly: I agree with my colleague. The sector is really impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis. It is a bit like the canary in the coal mine; it was the first impacted, and definitely it is still impacted. That's why we are in close contact with tourism leaders and operators across the country. Again, recently I had good conversations with the chambers of commerce all across Atlantic Canada, including Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador for the tourism sector. There is money for the tourism sector and tourism operators. They can have access to the wage subsidy. They wanted to have access to it until later in the summer, and it has been extended to the end of August. They have access to the rent relief program, the CEBA and ACOA funding. As mentioned many times in this chamber, Mr. Chair, if my colleague has clear examples to provide me, let's work together. Let's make sure the money flows to these people, because they need it.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): You have only about a minute left, Mr. d'Entremont.
Mr. Chris d'Entremont: Mr.Chair, like the minister, last week, I spoke with Simon-Pierre Poulin, the director of Le Franco newspaper in Alberta, about the Sauvons Saint-Jean movement. He asked me why we could not continue to work on official languages and on modernizing the act even though Parliament is sitting in a different configuration. Unfortunately, I had to explain to him that many restrictions were associated with the current format of this fake Parliament. The pandemic is also threatening the protection of French in minority communities. The Liberal government made a commitment to modernize the Official Languages Act in the first six months of its mandate. How will it proceed?
Hon. Mlanie Joly: Mr.Chair, it goes without saying that our two official languages are important and that, when it comes to language rights, we must always be on guard and protect what we have achieved. As for Campus Saint-Jean, I am very aware of the issue. I had the opportunity to speak with my two counterparts in Alberta late Friday afternoon to tell them about our concerns and the need to protect the institution from drastic cuts. That was the first point. The second point is the modernization of the Official Languages Act. I have the same concerns as my colleague. Clearly, we must continue the conversations and find the right solutions. Finally, we must be there to protect our language rights. If the member has good ideas, he can come to me to discuss them.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The hon. member for ChicoutimiLe Fjord has the floor.
Mr. Richard Martel (ChicoutimiLe Fjord, CPC): Mr.Chair, some people for whom the 15weeks of sickness benefits were not enough before the COVID-19crisis now have to exhaust their regular employment insurance benefits before they are entitled to the CERB. Today, I would like to know whether they will be able to exhaust their weeks of eligibility for the CERB after October3.
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr. Chair, we ensured that those who switched over to the Canada emergency response benefit would be covered by it, whether they were EI eligible or not. We are committed to supporting all of the workers who have been impacted by the COVID-19 pandemic.
Mr. Richard Martel: According to a survey conducted by the Universit du Qubec Trois-Rivires' research institute on small and medium size businesses, the SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean region would be the most affected by the economic effects of COVID-19. This is not surprising. In fact, in our region, the tourism industry generates more than $300million in economic activity, including $58million for the cruise industry alone. The $70million that you announced yesterday is a very modest start. What does the government intend to do for the tourism industry in the regions?
Hon. Mlanie Joly: Mr.Chair, it goes without saying that the tourism industry is indeed very much affected. That is why we are responding to their concerns and worries. We have therefore extended the emergency wage subsidy until the end of August. We are also providing the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance, as well as the $40,000loans from the Canada emergency business account. We have also just announced $70million in support for Canada's tourism sector. I am having good talks with various stakeholders in Quebec, including Martin Soucy from the Alliance de l'industrie touristique du Qubec. In addition, we are going to do our part to support the tourism sector through Economic Development Canada.
Mr. Richard Martel: Mr.Chair, the tourism industry in the SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean region is the sum of all its stakeholders. Many of these businesses are too small to receive the assistance announced by the federal government. Overly restrictive standards will prevent some tourist accommodation from welcoming guests this year, even though they will have to pay their bills every month. What does the government plan to do to help the regions most affected economically?
Hon. Mlanie Joly: I thank my colleague for his important question. What he is describing is the reason we are currently working on a game plan. We really want to be able to reach these small businesses, of which there are many in SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean, in Quebec and across the country. That is why the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance have committed an additional $1billion to help those businesses that fall through the cracks. We need to respond now, and I will have more to say about it in the next few days.
Mr. Richard Martel: Mr.Chair, I was very disappointed to see that we had lost asparagus crops due to a labour shortage. When I spoke with the blueberry growers in my area, they told me they were concerned that the same thing could happen to them. Some employers to whom we granted summer positions are not finding students to fill them. When will there be incentives to encourage people to work rather than disincentives?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr. Chair, we believe that the flexibilities we have introduced to the Canada summer jobs program will enable more employers to use it, including more businesses, as well as help young people to acquire the necessary skills and benefits from this really important program.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr.Martel, you have about a minute left.
Mr. Richard Martel: Mr.Chair, on May19, the government said that it was studying several solutions to help business owners and entrepreneurs who operate their business using a personal bank account. When will the Canada emergency business account be available to them?
Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade): Mr. Chair, small businesses are the heart of all of our communities, and we've been working really hard to help them. Almost 650,000 small businesses have received the loan, which is really helping with those costs. We have more work to do to make sure that those other businesses also get access to this support.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now go to Mr. Epp, the member for Chatham-KentLeamington.
Mr. Dave Epp: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I wish to congratulate my colleague, Cathy McLeod. On Tuesday, May 26, she gained a new resident when Brinnley Lisette Huby was born to parents Adam and Carina Huby. Carina is my daughter, and that makes Brinnley my first grandchild and presently my favourite newest Canadian. All are healthy, and I thank God for Brinnley's healthy arrival. Some honourable members: Hear, hear! Mr. Dave Epp: Minister Jordan, the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation is allowed access to the seafood stabilization fund, while you deny its competitor, our Ontario fisheries that fish on the Great Lakes, the similar right to apply. Minister, why?
Hon. Bernadette Jordan (South ShoreSt. Margarets, Lib.): Mr. Chair, I want to thank my colleague for the very good question. The Ontario inland fishers and the people in Ontario are eligible for other programs that are offered through the regional development agencies. We are going to make sure that no industry is left behind when it comes to our fisheries. We're making sure that we're addressing the concerns of inland fisheries as well as coastal fisheries. Those programs will be available to anyone who needs to apply through the RDAs.
Mr. Dave Epp: Minister, will you then direct these regional agencies to provide equitable funding equivalent to the seafood stabilization fund?
Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, we're making sure that they have the same access to programs through the regional development agencies as there is through the seafood stabilization fund. We're making sure that everyone who is in need of support through the programs will be able to access it.
Mr. Dave Epp: According to Stats Canada, before my granddaughter turns one year old, her share of the federal debt will be over $39,000. What is Minister Morneau's fiscal plan for Canada so that the interest on this debt doesn't cripple Canada with higher taxes?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, we realize that it's always important to be responsible from a fiscal standpoint. We believe that the responsible approach today is to make investments to support Canadians and to support businesses. In that way we can have jobs and we can get through this pandemic and have a strong economy and be able to continue with our approach to managing our economy in a responsible
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll go back to Mr. Epp.
Mr. Dave Epp: Minister, when can Parliament, or this semblance of it, see that plan for economic prosperity?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): I would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the Chair. The honourable minister may reply.
Hon. Bill Morneau: Thank you, Mr. Chair. We've been quite clear that we need to be transparent on a daily basis by giving Canadians an understanding of the investments that we're making through this pandemic. Once the situation is more stable economically, we will certainly be coming forward with a broader plan.
Mr. Dave Epp: Mr. Chair, the Canadian Chamber of Commerce said three months before the pandemic that this current government's level of spending and incurring of debt is untenable and that future generations, like my granddaughter, will have to pay for it. How much more debt is the minister planning to incur?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, coming into this pandemic in a strong fiscal position with the lowest amount of debt among the G7 countries is a function of our economy that's afforded us the opportunity to invest on behalf of Canadians. We will continue to take that approach. We believe that's the responsible thing to do through the course of this challenge.
Mr. Dave Epp: What is the budget for stopping illegal American guns from getting through our borders?
Hon. Marc Garneau (Minister of Transport): Mr. Chair, I thank the member for the question. I can tell you that we have invested considerable amounts of money and have earmarked ongoing monies to ensure that we address the issue of illegal guns passing across the border. We realize
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll go back to Mr. Epp.
Mr. Dave Epp: What's the budget, then, to fight government-trained and licensed Canadians in the court challenge that's now been triggered?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will go to the honourable minister. We're not getting any audio.
Mr. Dave Epp: I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. Could I have some more time, please?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Yes. We're just going to hold time here momentarily, Mr. Epp.
Hon. Marc Garneau: I apologize, Mr. Chair. Could I ask for the question to be repeated, please?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr. Epp, what is your question again?
Mr. Dave Epp: What is the budget for fighting the government-trained and licensed people who are now triggering a lawsuit against your order in council?
Hon. Marc Garneau: Mr. Chair, I don't have the answer to that question, but obviously the government will defend its position.
Mr. Dave Epp: Mr. Chair, COVID-19 has exacerbated the problem of this government's policy of spending the cupboards bare in good times instead of planning for a rainy dayand folks, we're in a storm. Unlike this government, municipalities cannot by law say put it on the tab for the next generation. The balanced budget requirements force them to choose between slashed services and drastic tax hikes. The Federation of Canadian Municipalities says they need $10 billion in targeted emergency operating funding, so do municipalities slash services, do they raise taxes, or will we be there for the municipalities?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Our government absolutely understands the crucial role municipalities play as the engine of our economy at all times, and particularly today, as in many parts of the country we are looking to restart the economy. That is why the Prime Minister announced just this morning that we will be accelerating payments under the gas tax fund. Municipalities will receive the full amount of their 2020-21 payment on June 10. This will help them with some of their near-term liquidity issues.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We're now going to Mr. Manly, the member for NanaimoLadysmith. Mr. Manly, go ahead.
Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP): Thank you, Mr. Chair. The Canada emergency commercial rent assistance program is not helping enough small businesses. Many landlords do not want to take part in the program. Small businesses are requesting that they be able to apply without the landlord's participation. Many small businesses do not meet the 70% income-loss threshold. Many did their best to keep employees engaged and tried hard to not lose clients, as the government urged them to do. They are, in fact, being penalized for that effort. Thousands of business owners across the country will not be able to pay their rent today and risk closing permanently. Will the government push the provinces to include an eviction moratorium during the pandemic and make this commercial rent assistance program more flexible to ensure small businesses can survive?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for the question, which recognizes the very serious challenge that many small businesses are facing during the course of this pandemic. We know that the programs we've put forward, programs like the emergency business account, are supporting businesses, but the emergency rent approach, on which we've worked together with provinces, can also help significantly. We are seeing a significant number of landlords and tenants coming forward with this and taking this up. I would encourage landlords to use this program, which is supporting them. Of course, the suggestion from the member that provinces take action in restricting evictions is one that I've been speaking about to ministers of finance from the provinces over the course of the last couple of months. This is an area of provincial jurisdiction. We are supportive and working hard to make sure this program works.
Mr. Paul Manly: Mr. Chair, this week marks the 31st anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre, and we are currently seeing repression of the democracy movement in Hong Kong. We know that Communist China oppresses minority groups and does not respect human rights. In spite of this knowledge, the Harper Conservative government signed a lopsided and anti-democratic investment treaty with China in 2012, the Canada-China FIPA. This Conservative deal gave Chinese state-owned corporations extraordinary powers to challenge our democratic decisions through a secretive private tribunal system. In the years since the FIPA was signed, with no vote in Parliament, Chinese state-owned corporations have been purchasing Canadian assets and resources. These corporations can seek financial compensation from Canadian taxpayers for the loss of potential profit when our laws and policies get in the way of their profit-taking. Can the government tell us whether any of these Chinese corporations has threatened to use the anti-democratic investor-state provisions of the FIPA to seek financial compensation from Canadian taxpayers?
Hon. Franois-Philippe Champagne: As I'm sure the member will know, Canada is setting up with its allies around the world to protect the freedom and democracy that has been enjoyed by the people in Hong Kong. As he knows, we have issued a declaration with a number of allies we have called upon to make sure that measures remain in place to protect the freedom and liberty of the people of Hong Kong. We know that the one country, two systems treaty system has provided the framework under which the people of Hong Kong have been able to create an economy that is resilient and has made Hong Kong a place where people want to do business, commerce and trade. Mr. Chair, we have expressed our deep concern. I would refer the member to the joint statement we have issued with the United States, Australia and the United Kingdom. We have spoken with one voice and we have said we have deep concerns that the actions by Beijing, if they were to proceed with this national security law unilaterally, would undermine the bedrock of what has made Hong Kong, and that we will review the impact that
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr. Manly, you have about 45 seconds left. Go ahead; there's time for a short question.
Mr. Paul Manly: That was a trick question, because this anti-democratic agreement states that we wouldn't be able to have permission to disclose that information if there was, in fact, an investor-state dispute. Unlike NAFTA, which had a six-month period for renegotiation, the Harper Conservatives locked us into a 15-year agreement with the FIPA and this anti-democratic agreement. Will the government re-engage the special committee on Canada-China relations so we can do a thorough investigation of this Conservative sellout of Canadian democracy
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We are out of time, Mr. Manly. We'll go to the minister for a response.
Hon. Mary Ng: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Canada will always pursue trade in the interest of Canadians, and we are in the process of reviewing our FIPA agreements so those agreements can provide the right framework for Canadians to trade, with the interests of Canadians always top of mind.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We're now going to Ms. Ashton in ChurchillKeewatinook Aski. Ms. Ashton, go ahead with your question.
Ms. Niki Ashton (ChurchillKeewatinook Aski, NDP): Mr. Chair, I'll be splitting my time with the member for Victoria. My question is to the Minister of Fisheries. This pandemic has hit Canadians hard. Import markets for our fish have dried up. This is devastating for inland fisheries. The season opened last week, and fishers are desperate for support. For indigenous fishers, fishing sustains their communities. It is their way of life. Will the government work with the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation and inland fishers to develop and facilitate the delivery of an emergency package that works for them and find ways to redirect product to domestic markets, including communities facing food insecurity now?
Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, we've recognized how hard the pandemic has hit our fishers and our fishing sector. We've made available a number of different measures. One of the things we're doing primarily is the harvesters' benefit, which allows all harvesters to take advantage of a benefit as well as a grant contribution to help them get through. We're also changing EI so they can now qualify for their EI benefits based on previous seasons, not this one, recognizing they're going to face challenges this year. The Freshwater Fish Marketing Board is a Crown corporation. We know it's been a very difficult time for them. We are continuing to look at ways we can address the challenges within the industry and we'll continue to work with them to make sure we are addressing those needs.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Ms. Ashton, we have about one minute left. There's time for a short question. Go ahead.
Ms. Niki Ashton: My question is to the Minister of Transport. Canadians are being ripped off by airlines that are refusing to give passengers their money back. Airlines are profiting off Canadians during a very desperate time. This government has sat by while the Canadian Transportation Agency issued a statement to back up the airlines' appalling actions. What is this government doing to fix this? Why aren't they ensuring that public funds involve reimbursing passengers and an equity stake for Canadians?
Hon. Marc Garneau: Mr. Chair, I certainly recognize the very difficult situation and the frustration of Canadians who would have preferred a refund. At the same time, at this point if airlines were required to immediately reimburse all the cancelled tickets, it would have a devastating effect on the airlines. That is why the Canadian Transportation Agency, which is an independent body, recommended that vouchers be issued and that they have a reasonable time to be usedtwo years. It is also very important to bear in mind that as we begin to exit this pandemic, we must still have an airline industry in this country.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Now we're going to the honourable member for Victoria, Ms. Collins. Please go ahead.
Ms. Laurel Collins (Victoria, NDP): Mr. Chair, in Victoria housing and homelessness were at a crisis point long before the pandemic hit, but now people are particularly vulnerable to COVID-19. If you don't have a place to live, you don't have the luxury of following public health advice and staying home. As part of the recovery, will this government be increasing funding to build or buy the housing needed to address homelessness?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr. Chair, very early in the response to the COVID-19 pandemic, our government provided $157.5 million directly to 51 community entities to respond directly to the needs of homeless Canadians. We also provided $50 million in additional money to women's shelters. We are continuing with the national housing strategy. We are providing supports to communities and NGOs, as well as municipalities that are moving projects forward.
Ms. Laurel Collins: Mr. Chair, the federal government allocated just $1.3 million in Reaching Home funds to my region. While the province has stepped up, it cost them $18.5 million to purchase just one hotel in Victoria. The federal funding is clearly inadequate. Is the government going to show some leadership and at least match the provincial funds?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr. Chair, we moved very quickly. The $157.5 million, I must note, was additional money on top of the base funding that we provide every year to address the needs of Canada's most vulnerable. In addition to that, our projects under the national housing strategy are continuing. We are providing leadership. We are trusting the community entities to make the decisions on where the funding goes and to respond in a way that meets the
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Ms. Collins, you have about 40 seconds left, which is time for a short question. Go ahead.
Ms. Laurel Collins: The minister mentioned the national housing strategy. This government's national housing strategy reduces the level of targeted funding for lower-income households, according to the Parliamentary Budget Officer. My question is simple: Coming out of the pandemic in the coming months, is the government going to increase housing funding to address the immediate need, yes or no?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr. Chair, I disagree with the honourable member. Our money is targeted to communities. They have community advisory boards that decide how to spend the money. If the NDP does not trust local communities to make decisions, they should say so.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): I now invite the hon. member for Joliette, Mr.Ste-Marie, to take the floor. Go ahead, Mr.Ste-Marie.
Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Regardless of the COVID-19 pandemic, the last time I checked, we still had a democratic system and the government had to remain accountable. The government needs to present a picture of the economic situation and a picture of its overall emergency measures. Does the government intend to extend the measures over the summer? If so, how will it do so? The government must also present its working scenarios for the economic recovery. The government needs to be transparent. When will the government provide its economic update?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the hon. member for his questions. I agree, it is very important to be transparent and to provide the necessary information to Canadians. Every day, we announce measures, of course, but also the cost of the measures and the amount of the investments. It is very important. The challenge at the moment is the economic situation, which is very fluid. When the situation is more stable, we will have the opportunity to give an economic update.
Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: In my opinion, Mr.Chair, it will really be too late to do the economic update when things are more stable. We have been asking for an economic update for the past month. Even the Parliamentary Budget Officer has been urging the government to table an economic update in a timely manner. With only three weeks left in the House before the summer, the clock is ticking. The Quebec government will table its economic update later this month. Will the federal government follow suit?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, let me confirm that we will continue to be transparent about the investments; it is very important. Of course, each day we work to make sure we have a solid grasp of the economic situation. As I said, when the situation is a little more stable, we will have the opportunity to explain our situation with an economic update.
Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: Once again, Mr.Chair, when the situation is more stable, it will be too late to do an economic update; instead we will have to table a budget with the recovery in mind. Speaking of the recovery, the Parliamentary Budget Officer is surprised that the government is calling on the private sector for ideas for its recovery plan. Mr.Giroux points out that this government has thousands of public servants with very good ideas, and he adds that the government can also ask for the opposition parties' views. That would be a very good idea. Why is the government contracting out the development of its recovery plan to the private sector?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, I would like to tell the hon. member that it is important to listen to what we are trying to do, and to listen to people's ideas and opinions, not only in Parliament, but also from our society. So we keep listening. Of course, with our approach, we will address the economic recovery in a way that will ensure we can maintain our very strong position.
Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: Mr.Chair, we are still surprised that the government has contracted out its recovery plan to the private sector. The sooner the government tables its recovery plan, the better. Businesses and individuals would start gaining confidence in the economy again. It would help them to loosen the purse strings and be assured that there will be economic life after the pandemic. Again, that is what the Parliamentary Budget Officer says. Can the government tell us when it will table its recovery plan?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, we feel it is very important to consider what we need to do in each phase of our recovery. At this time, it is necessary to consider the public health situation and the gradual reopening of our economy. That is why we feel our approach aims for a safe recovery. Obviously, by gathering more information in Phase3, we will be able to consider more than one approach to recovery.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr.Ste-Marie, you have about 30seconds left.
Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: Thank you. I understand that the exact date for tabling the recovery plan may be difficult to determine at this time. Can the minister tell us whether he currently intends to table the recovery plan in a month ending in ber? If not, will it be before or after that?
Hon. Bill Morneau: We continue to work with the provinces on an approach to determine the timing of the recovery, and we are also listening to our colleagues in Parliament, of course.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We're now going to the honourable member for Abbotsford, Mr. Fast.
Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. The Prime Minister continues to pander to the Communist regime in China. We were shocked to hear that his own Minister of Digital Government used WeChat, a Chinese social media site, to raise funds to sue a Global News reporterfor what? It was for daring to expose China's attempt to hoard PPE during the COVID crisis. Is it the practice of the government to support lawsuits against Canadian reporters who challenge the hostile actions of the regime in China, and will the Prime Minister now condemn the actions of the digital government minister?
Hon. Steven Guilbeault: Mr. Chair, we value the important work of media across the country and the world. Attacking the integrity of hard-working journalists is not acceptable. As many members on all sides of the House know, WeChat is a social media platform used to engage and share information with the Chinese-Canadian community. Participation in this group, much like Facebook, is guided by posted guidelines and a disclaimer. In this case, the individual who violated the guidelines of the group is no longer a part of that group.
Hon. Ed Fast: Mr. Chair, Canadians have no reason to trust the Prime Minister on anything to do with China, especially when it comes to trade policy. Two and a half years ago, the Prime Minister travelled to China to commence free trade negotiations, and the talks ended up in complete failure and embarrassment. Still the Prime Minister continues to cozy up to the Chinese regime, refusing to ban Huawei from our 5G network or to speak out convincingly against China's oppression in Hong Kong. Meanwhile, the two Michaels are continuing to languish in Chinese jails. This is the kind of partner the Prime Minister wants to negotiate a trade agreement with. Can the minister tell us whether at any time during the last six months the Prime Minister or anyone else in his government has had discussions with China about a free trade agreement? A simple yes or no will do.
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, as you know, Canada has a complex and multi-dimensional relationship with China. Canada will continue to engage with China with eyes wide open. Any work that we do on trade and on all matters will always be in the interests of Canadians first.
Hon. Ed Fast: I think Canadians will see that the minister didn't even answer a simple yes-or-no question, so I'll ask her a simpler yes-or-no question. Is she or anyone else in her government presently discussing or negotiating a free trade agreement with China, yes or no?
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, we will always do our work, including any discussions on trade and indeed all of our work, with the interests of Canadians and Canadian businesses as our absolute top priority.
Hon. Ed Fast: Again, there was no answer, so I'll try again. Will the minister now assure Canadians that she and the Prime Minister's government will not negotiate a free trade agreement with China, yes or no?
Hon. Mary Ng: Any work that we do will always be guided by the best interests of Canadians and Canadian businesses.
Hon. Ed Fast: Mr. Chair, I am just flabbergasted. This minister has been asked three times if the government is negotiating a trade agreement. She refuses to answer, so I'll try again. Will the minister tell us why she thinks negotiating a trade agreement with a hostile country like China is in Canada's best interests?
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, I thank the honourable member for the question. The answer is no.
Hon. Ed Fast: Mr. Chair, I just want to make sure. Free trade is a good thing when it takes place between like-minded countries that embrace free market principles and apply the rule of law. China is not such a country. In fact, China repeatedly flouts international trade rules, illegally dumps underpriced goods into Canada, and prevents Canadian canola, beef and pork from entering China. Is has also jailed Canadians without due process. Will the minister now assure us that our government will not negotiate any free trade agreements with China, yes or no?
Hon. Mary Ng: We are not in discussions with China on a free trade agreement, and as my colleagues, including the Prime Minister and the foreign minister, have said many times in this House and outside of this House, our priority continues to be the immediate release of Canadians detained in China. We will always work in the interests of Canadians and Canadian businesses. That is what we will always do.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): This will conclude today's sitting of the special committee on the COVID-19 pandemic. Therefore this committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon. | |
doc_103 | Sian Thomas: Bore da. Unfortunately, the Chair, Lynne Neagle, is unable to attend today's meeting. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 17.22, I call for nominations for a temporary Chair, for the duration of the meeting.
Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths.
Sian Thomas: Any further nominations? I therefore declare that John Griffiths has been appointed temporary Chair, and I invite him to chair for the duration of today's meeting.
John Griffiths AM: Thank you very much. I thank the Members for that. Welcome, everyone, to this meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. The first item on our agenda today is apologies, substitutions, declarations of interest. Obviously, Lynne Neagle isn't able to be with us today. We haven't received any other apologies. Are there any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then to item 2 on our agenda, the continuation of our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes, and evidence session 8. And I'm very pleased to welcome Estyn here this morning to give evidence to the committee. Would you like to introduce yourselves for the record, please?
Meilyr Rowlands: Meilyr Rowlands, chief inspector.
Claire Morgan: Claire Morgan, strategic director.
Simon Brown: Simon Brown, strategic director.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Thank you. And welcome again. If it's okay, we'll move straight into questions—we have quite a number of questions to get through this morning. Firstly, Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning. I just want to start by asking about your perception of how schools are using the pupil development grant funding, and to what extent they are genuinely targeting that funding exclusively towards children eligible for free school meals.
Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question. This grant has been targeted far better by now than it was originally. Estyn has made several reports regarding the effectiveness of the grant, and, really, going back to before this specific grant, to a similar grant, called RAISE. At the start of this grant, the funding was often spent on tackling underachievement, rather than dealing with the underachievement of children who are eligible for free school meals specifically. But, over a period of time, we have seen that it is targeted much better by now. That's not to say that the targeting is working perfectly still, and I think that we are seeing examples where the targeting isn't going just to children who receive free school meals. Schools sometimes interpret poverty in a slightly wider way than that. In terms of what schools are doing with the grant, we have given evidence to you of the kinds of things that they are doing. They are tracking progress of pupils, they are trying to improve attendance, they are trying to work with families and the community in general, they're doing work specifically to improve how children are doing in exams, in key stage 4, specifically—a lot of funding is being spent on that—improving the confidence of students, taking students on extra-curricular activities, improving literacy and numeracy. Those are the kinds of activities they're being used for.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because the research by Ipsos MORI and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods has shown that there is some kind of blurring—I think that's the term that they use—in terms of who is eligible. But you are relatively comfortable with the fact that there is sufficient targeting happening. You referred to the fact that it is used, perhaps, to reach a slightly wider cohort than just those who are eligible for free school meals, but you do feel that that balance, from your experience, is acceptable.
Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, certainly, it has improved a great deal. When I was looking at this initially, the targeting wasn’t happening at all. It was being spent on children who were underachieving, and one of the things that we did notice in the first report was that much more funding was being spent on boys than girls. And, of course, that raised the question immediately that it wasn't being spent then on children who are eligible for free school meals, because those numbers are equal. So, it wasn’t, but it has improved. There is a discussion about who exactly should have it and whether free school meals is the best definition. So, I think that schools are perhaps not following that exactly, but within the spirit of the grant, I think I’m fairly comfortable. There is a specific question—I don’t know if you are going to ask this—regarding more able and talented pupils.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's where I was going next.
Meilyr Rowlands: So, if there is a cohort of pupils who are missing out on this, they are the more able and talented pupils who receive free school meals. There are a number of reasons for this, I think. One of them is that there’s still some feeling that less able children should be receiving this grant, children who are underachieving. Schools don’t always identify underachievement of those more able children. It seems that they are doing okay, but if they were given more support, they would do even better.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, is it a lack of awareness of the nature of the grant, and that the individual has to be targeted rather than just those who are underachieving? Is that the problem? Or is it the regime that focuses on exam results and the need to draw those pupils who are underachieving up, rather than incentivising those who are achieving to achieve better?
Meilyr Rowlands: A bit of both, I'd say. And the third factor is identifying children who are more able. I think that we have a bit of work to do in that regard. I was in a conference for headteachers last week, where there was new data being discussed, and that data showed the progress of children from a certain point, year 6 tests. I think that kind of data will be very useful, because what that data can do is help secondary schools to identify more able children and that they are underachieving. Even though they're doing quite well, that kind of value-added data is very useful. So, I think that that will help as well.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you.
John Griffiths AM: Mark, did you want to pursue these matters further?
Mark Reckless AM: Yes. I just wanted to ask about the more able and talented stream. It was good to read in your report an increased emphasis on this and to see your awareness of its importance in the PDG as well. Can I just ask—? Would you look at one area regarding schools' engagement with the Seren network, particularly for the more able and talented, and what more Estyn can do through its inspection criteria and otherwise to encourage this from schools?
Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think Estyn has always been very strongly focused on improving the performance of more able pupils. For example, in last year's annual report I raised it, and a lot of the debate around this now, I think, was generated by some of the things I've said in previous annual reports. We gave a lot of evidence to the—. Paul Flynn, I think, did the—no, who did the report? Paul Murphy did the report. So, we gave evidence to that. And on Seren, I'm particularly proud that my alma mater, Jesus College, is a very strong supporter of the Seren work. So, I'm personally quite interested in the work of Seren. And we look at the performance of more able pupils in all our inspections. It's a particular part of our inspection framework—looking at the relative performance of different groups. So, we look at the different performance of boys and girls, free school meals and non-free school meals, ethnic minorities, but we also look at the performance of more able pupils in particular, and we question schools about how they provide for the more able pupils, and we've referred to Seren in several of our inspection reports.
Mark Reckless AM: And where schools work particularly hard to engage with Seren and take up opportunities from that and push as many pupils as appropriate to work with that, is that something that you would recognise within your inspection reports? And, on the other side, where schools don't do that, is that something you would pull them up on?
Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we've done that. We've done it in several reports.
Claire Morgan: Throughout our inspections, we are looking for best practice, because part of our strategy is always to identify where there are weaknesses, but actually to point schools in the direction of where they can find a solution. So, capturing different approaches to more able and talented is part of the role of inspection.
Mark Reckless AM: Thank you.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Just briefly, you touched earlier on using the measure of those who are eligible for free school meals as a way to identify children from disadvantaged backgrounds so that you can target this funding. Varied evidence has been given to us on this. Do you have an opinion on whether that's the best way?
Meilyr Rowlands: It certainly is a good way of doing it. There is a strong correlation between children who underachieve and that measure, so it is a strong measure. But, there is scope to discuss how exactly it does work. For example, some people say that if you have received free school meals for a period of time and now you're not receiving them, then perhaps you should still be receiving the funding for a period of time, for example. So, there are ways of fine-tuning that measure, I think. It's worth considering those approaches.
John Griffiths AM: Thanks for that. We move on now to Michelle.
Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. Good morning, everyone. You've reported that the proportion of schools making effective use of the PDG remains around two thirds of secondary and primary schools, meaning that a third are still not using that PDG effectively. Why do you think this is?
Meilyr Rowlands: I think that sort of proportion broadly corresponds to the schools that don't have particularly good leadership. I think, ultimately, all of these sorts of initiatives come down to strong leadership and effective leadership—that they know how to organise and use those grants effectively. One of the shortcomings that we often identify is evaluation—that money has been spent on a particular way of using the grant, but it has not been evaluated well. So, I think quite a lot of it is to do with generic leadership skills. But those are some of the specific shortcomings to do with evaluation.
Michelle Brown AM: Are there any patterns by region or type of school in that?
Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think there's any patterns that we've identified in terms of region.
Claire Morgan: As Meilyr said, it's very strongly linked to leadership capacity.
Michelle Brown AM: Okay. Thank you. What are the most effective uses of PDG, from your point of view? Is there something in particular that you think that schools should be focusing on?
Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a lot of evidence on what constitutes good practice in this area. There's the Welsh Government guidance, there's our guidance, there's a lot of research—the Sutton Trust toolkit—and they're the sorts of things I mentioned earlier. I think that more attention does need to be given to the community-focused element of this work. So, schools do a lot of things that they are in control of—the things I mentioned earlier: things like improving attendance, offering extra-curricular activities, literacy and numeracy support, tracking pupils—all those sorts of things. But an important element of this, I think, is engaging with the learners, but also with parents and the community. I think what we've found is that the most effective schools—the ones that really do make a big difference to this cohort of students—are the ones that do that most effectively.
Claire Morgan: I think that there are different situations in different schools, but in the best schools, they evaluate the barriers to learning for their particular children. Often we see that engagement with communities is part of that engagement with families. In Brackla Primary School, in Bridgend, they've got Families at Brackla, and it's a range of activities to engage with families. Families often have had a negative experience of education themselves, and the schools are trying to address some of those concerns. Cefn Hengoed in Swansea, which I'm sure many of you know about, have had an extensive strategy for engaging with the community, with the families, and equipping their children to participate in decisions around the curriculum, making them more confident learners. So, it is about removing the barriers for disadvantaged learners.
Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. You've made the comment that secondary schools are focusing too much on key stage 4 and not enough on developing pupils' skills in a sustainable way. Can you expand on that and give us a bit more detail on that, please?
Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think this is sort of generally accepted now. The latest guidance on the grant now says that 60 per cent of it should be spent on key stage 3. I think that acknowledges this general point. But what a lot of schools did with this money was precisely that, to target key stage 4—to have catch-up homework clubs, revision clubs, specifically to get children better GCSE results, and getting C grades, in particular. Of course, that is an important part of your armoury of tools to use, but I think there was too much use of that. Part of the problem with that is that it doesn't either develop the long-term transferable skills that those pupils have, or should have, nor does it produce the kinds of skills that the teachers need as well. So, it's kind of a quick win, a quick-fix solution, while what we feel would be more effective in the long term, and more sustainable in the long term—because if this money goes, then those quick fixes won't be possible—what would be more effective in the long term is to improve the curriculum and the pedagogy, the quality of the teaching, the quality of the curriculum, so that children are naturally enthused by what is on offer, that they attend better because they want to be in school, that they want to learn. So, we feel that getting the curriculum right, tailoring the curriculum to the needs of the pupils in that area, and improving teaching, is a more sustainable long-term solution.
Michelle Brown AM: Do you think there's anything in particular driving the focus on the key stage 4?
Meilyr Rowlands: Well, again, I think most people would say it is the performance indicators. I think there's a general acknowledgement of that. Again, I said last week—. There was a conference of all the secondary heads in Wales, and that was one of the major discussion points in the conference: how do we get the performance indicators right so that there are no perverse incentives in it?
Michelle Brown AM: To what extent are decisions being made in schools concerning the application of the PDG actually evidence-based? To what extent are they using research to back up how they're using the PDG or is it effectively just guesswork?
Meilyr Rowlands: I think that, of all the areas of school policy, this is the one that's most evidence-based. I think that, generally, schools can do much more about using evidence and research findings, but this particular area is probably the one that schools are strongest at using research in. That's partly because the guidance strongly suggests that you should do that, but also because there is a lot of easily accessible research evidence available. So, there's a lot of research on this. As I mentioned earlier, the Sutton Trust toolkit is a good example where researchers have really tried very hard to simplify all the evidence that exists in a way that schools can use. So, there are little pound signs to show how costly an intervention is and little stars or something to show how many months of gain pupils get out of this particular intervention. So, it makes it much easier for schools to make a decision. But I think what's missing is that you can't just take that evidence as it is, because you have to implement it in your own school, and that then will affect how effective that particular intervention is. Just because it is evaluated by researchers as being generally very effective doesn't mean that you will necessarily implement it effectively. So, it is therefore important that each school does evaluate. So, there are kind of two sides to using research. There's looking at research, but there's also doing your own research and evaluating how effectively you have implemented something. I think that's been a weakness.
Michelle Brown AM: Thank you.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: Do you think there's an attendance crisis at key stage 4 for those students eligible for free school meals?
Meilyr Rowlands: 'Crisis' is maybe too strong a word, but I think there's been a lot of attention given to attendance, quite rightly. Over a long period of time, I was a member of the national behaviour and attendance review board under Ken Reid about 10 years ago. So, there's been a lot of attention on attendance, and that's very important because attendance has a very strong correlation with outcomes.
Hefin David AM: Of those students at key stage 4, 35 per cent of those eligible for free school meals are attending for 95 per cent of the time, whereas it's 60 per cent for their peers. Is the PDG making an impact on that? You've mentioned engagement with the curriculum. What more can be done?
Meilyr Rowlands: I think what's happening now is that people are targeting their attention on attendance. Attendance has improved in primary and in secondary generally. It has also improved for these cohorts as well, and at a faster rate than the rest of the cohort. So, there have been improvements. Nevertheless, I agree with you totally that it is a major, major problem, and that is why schools do use the PDG specifically to improve attendance.
Hefin David AM: But you said they've not used it well enough.
Meilyr Rowlands: Did I say that? They are using it, and attendance has improved, and the attendance of this cohort has improved more, but there's still a major, major problem. So, I think there needs to be even more attention—
Hefin David AM: So, what—? I'm looking for specifics. What can be done with the PDG?
Meilyr Rowlands: I think, as I said earlier, that these are major social issues. So, I think what can be done that hasn't been done currently is to give more attention to the community-focused side of schooling. I think the schools that have done well, that have really improved attendance of this particular group of pupils, are the ones that have taken community relationships very, very seriously and worked with parents.
Hefin David AM: Yes, you mentioned working with families when you were answering Llyr. How does that happen, though? What does it look like? If I'm a parent, what does it look like?
Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. I'll ask Claire to give you an example. Cefn Hengoed is a good example of a school that has not cracked it but made a lot of progress.
Claire Morgan: Often, in the best schools, the headteachers consider themselves to be community leaders as well as headteachers, and they often set up arrangements where they engage directly with the families of disadvantaged children or children who are underachieving generally. They try to build very strong relationships with the families so that the school is in a position to either liaise with different agencies or to bring agencies into the school to address some of the issues that are outside school control.
Hefin David AM: And where does the PDG come into this, and the use of it?
Claire Morgan: This sometimes is used for appointing staff whose role it is to facilitate these arrangements to give one-to-one support to children, to monitor attendance, to visit homes where children are not coming into schools, to try and address what the barriers are in getting them into classrooms.
Hefin David AM: And those lessons you've learned from Cefn Hengoed: how are you going to spread that? How does that get spread?
Claire Morgan: Well, we've done it in a number of ways. Obviously, the first thing we do is the inspection report, and we highlight the practice there. We also have things—. This is an example of our best-practice case studies. We also have conferences as well, where we invite the headteachers from those schools to come and present to other headteachers. We also tweet, use social media, to try and get the message out there. But there's also—
Hefin David AM: This all seems like stuff that's done to teachers. It doesn't seem very engaging.
Claire Morgan: Well, it is—. Headteachers tell us that learning about best practice from other headteachers is very, very useful. When we had a conference, and when we looked at leadership and improving schools, Cefn Hengoed, along with a number of other schools, presented, and we had very positive feedback from that. So, it is actually schools learning from other schools, and I think the work that the consortia have been doing on school-to-school support as well can contribute to it.
Hefin David AM: We're spreading the PDG very thinly now, if we're talking about attendance, and then we talk about exclusion as well. Is it possible that it can have an impact on reducing the higher exclusion rates for EFSM students?
Claire Morgan: I think it has the potential to. I think all these strategies have a potential to remove those barriers. But this is—
Hefin David AM: It doesn't sound very convincing.
Claire Morgan: But it is a difficult challenge for schools. These are often complex issues that schools are grappling with, and they are trying a variety of approaches.
Hefin David AM: Okay. I'm not being overly critical, but it does seem very hit and miss, to me. Some of the answers that you're giving—they seem to be giving certain examples, but there doesn't seem to be a coherence to it.
Claire Morgan: I think it comes back to leadership. Where we have very strong strategic leadership in schools, they are more direct in their approach, and they have a very strong strategy. Where there's weaker leadership, sometimes they are trying different things, perhaps in more of a scattergun approach, rather than trying strategies, evaluating and finding out what works. There is an element of the impact of leadership there.
Hefin David AM: Okay.
John Griffiths AM: Okay, Hefin? Okay.
Meilyr Rowlands: I think it is true to say that it's difficult to distinguish what some of these better schools do with PDG, as opposed to their general money. If that's what you're getting at, I would totally agree. Schools like Cefn Hengoed will be using more than just the PDG to do this work.
Hefin David AM: And it appears to be a lot about the way things are done, as much as how the money is spent.
Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely.
Claire Morgan: It is to do with the ethos and the culture of the school.
Hefin David AM: Okay.
John Griffiths AM: Okay, thanks for that. We have further questions from Michelle.
Michelle Brown AM: Thank you, Chair. You've observed that the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those who aren't on free school meals hasn't closed significantly at any stage of learning. Is the PDG actually working?
Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I'm in danger of repeating myself now. It's quite difficult to identify the cause and the effect in terms of the PDG. So, where there have been improvements, it's quite difficult to say, 'Well, that's definitely down to the PDG', and similarly vice versa: if it's not working, it's difficult to say that it's because of PDG not being used properly. To come back to something else I said previously, there have been small improvements. Whether you say that that is due to PDG or not is quite difficult, but there have been some improvements. But there hasn't been a major step change in closing that gap, that is true, and I think the conclusion that I draw is that these are major societal challenges and barriers that these young people face. Schools can do a certain amount, and of course they must do a certain amount, but to have a step change you do need to engage with the learners, with the parents and with the community and that's why the more successful schools do actually succeed—it's because they do that. So, I think more of a push on that area at a national level would be welcome.
Michelle Brown AM: In most successful schools, how much is the attainment gap being narrowed, in the schools that make the most effective use of PDG?
Meilyr Rowlands: Well, that would vary from school to school. We can look up specific examples for you of specific schools if you like.
John Griffiths AM: Yes, perhaps you could provide a note to the committee on that.
Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, I could have a list of schools and how much they've closed, perhaps.
Michelle Brown AM: Okay, I'll move on.
John Griffiths AM: Perhaps you could include in that what you would consider to be a significant increase.
Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. Fine.
Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. In 2017, we saw a re-widening of the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those not on free school meals. What effect do you think the Welsh Government's changes to performance measures have had in terms of impact?
Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they definitely had a direct impact on it, and probably there might well be an indirect, longer-term impact as well. But, clearly, changing the performance indicators had a direct, immediate effect, because some of those examinations, qualifications, courses that were typically followed by this cohort of students weren't any longer part of the headline performance indicators. So, you've all heard about BTEC Science and the key skills qualifications. Those sorts of things that many of these pupils used to succeed at, and therefore get the performance indicator for the school, no longer count. So, it's had a direct impact, and it's one of the reasons why it's quite difficult to compare the results of one year and another, because of these changes in performance indicators.
Michelle Brown AM: Yes, that makes sense. Do you think there hasn't been any—? Can we take it from what you've said that there's been a positive improvement, or has it been negative?
Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a growing realisation that secondary schools, key stage 4, is driven overly by performance indicators, and, whatever performance indicator you come up with, there will be unintended consequences. So, it's not, I think, useful to keep changing the performance indicators and think that you will get to a point where you solve the problem. That's not likely to happen. What needs to be done is to have a different approach to accountability that doesn't put so much attention on these performance indicators, because what you're doing is you're just moving the problem around by changing the performance indicators. Some of these vocational courses that I mentioned are a good example of this. So, I think the previous performance indicators encouraged schools to enter, for example, whole cohorts to do BTEC science, and that's not a good idea because the GCSE sciences are better preparation to go on to A-level science, for example. So, you're cutting out the possibility of progression for those pupils. On the other hand, by discouraging—the new performance indicators discourage BTEC and now people are saying, 'We're not offering BTEC at all', and it is suitable for a certain cohort of pupils. So, it's very difficult to get the performance indicators absolutely right if you put so much pressure on schools to actually achieve those performance indicators.
John Griffiths AM: Michelle, I'd just like to bring in Darren at this point.
Darren Millar AM: I share some of your concern around the unavailability now of BTEC in some schools. It strikes me that the decision to discourage the availability of BTEC, which is what the performance measures do, really is sending a message about vocational qualifications that is not helpful, actually, to many young people for whom vocational qualifications may be perfectly suitable. Is that something with which you concur?
Meilyr Rowlands: I think it's one of the unintended consequences, and what I'm trying to say is that, almost inevitably, there will be unintended consequences. So, you can sympathise with the original decision to change the performance indicators in such a way that it encouraged more pupils to do GCSEs, for example, but it does have that unintended consequence. In theory, there's nothing stopping a school entering pupils now for those qualifications.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle, we need to move on at this stage, so we'll move on Julie Morgan.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes, thank you very much. I wanted to ask you about looked-after children and adopted children, and how effective the PDG has been for those groups of children. So, to begin with, how well do the schools know that the PDG does exist for looked-after children and adopted children?
Meilyr Rowlands: I think what we found—we did a review of looked-after children fairly recently, and we found there was some confusion about where the grant was, who had the grant and how it was spent, and what the priorities of regional consortia were, because I think the grant goes to regional consortia now. I think previously it went to local authorities. So, I think schools aren't quite sure about how it's spent and what the priorities are.
Claire Morgan: I think we've seen a bit of improvement there. Meilyr was right; there was a lack of clarity. Schools weren't always aware of the grant and the possibility of using it to support those learners. But the consortia are now using the grant, and there's some training being offered to schools around emotional behaviour and attachment training. There's some school-to-school work that is now being funded by the grant to share best practice, and there are some individual bursaries to support the work. So, from quite a concern, some action now is appearing to be done.
Simon Brown: And on other developments, regional consortia, they've have appointed regional LAC co-ordinators, which has been helpful—
Julie Morgan AM: For these particular groups?
Simon Brown: Yes. It has happened since July 2016 and they're now in post and beginning to work. And, as Claire said—she gave some of the spend that the regional consortia are using, targeted spending. It's an improving area of regional consortia's work. They are improving their tracking of looked-after children. There's an issue about adopted children, I think, because, currently, the pupil-level annual school census data doesn't differentiate whether children are adopted or not. So, they're more difficult to track. But looked-after children are being tracked by the consortia. So, it's an improving area, as Claire mentioned.
Julie Morgan AM: Could you give some examples of some work that's been done with looked-after children that you feel has been effective?
Claire Morgan: I think we'd probably need to go away and get that from our evidence base. That would be helpful.
Julie Morgan AM: That would be great if you could do that and send something in to us. I've mentioned before in this context that this previous committee, in the previous Assembly, did an inquiry into adopted children, where we met with a lot of adoptive parents. And one of the big issues that did come out was the fact that there was a great deal of concern about some of the insensitivities in the schools in dealing with adopted children, asking for pictures of when the children were born and things like that that didn't show a degree of sensitivity. Do you feel that those sorts of issues are being addressed on a wider basis now, and are they being addressed through this grant, through the PDG grant?
Meilyr Rowlands: We probably do need to come back to you with some more evidence on this. This is certainly on our radar. We've got two pieces of work currently that we're doing, which will give a little bit more evidence on this. We're doing a piece of work on managed moves and I think that will be helpful because a lot of these pupils are subject to managed moves, and that's the sort of thing we'll be looking at in that report: what information is transferred from one organisation and from one school to another. I think that generally hasn't been very helpful, and there isn't necessarily a good system for exchanging particularly their educational needs—some of the basic things about their date of birth and whatever are transferred, but their educational needs, when children move from one school to another. So, we've got a report coming out on that. The other piece of work we've been doing is on children who have had adverse experiences in their childhood and how schools deal with those traumatic backgrounds.
Julie Morgan AM: That would, of course, be much wider than looked-after and adopted children.
Meilyr Rowlands: It is wider. It is wider. That is wider. But, if you don't mind, we'll try and get you something specifically on—
Julie Morgan AM: If you could, because there does generally seem to be a lack of knowledge about how effective this work is with looked-after and adopted children. You don't have any information about exclusion rates, for example, with looked-after children, and the way this grant has been used to address those sorts of issues?
Meilyr Rowlands: I think there is some data available. I don't think exclusions have gone down particularly for that group more than any other group. But there has to be quite a bit of caution used with data on exclusions. The Welsh Government's statistics on that come with a big cautionary note, because that data is subject to a lot of variation—exactly what you're talking about, I think: different counties and different authorities do things differently. And I think the work we're doing on managed moves is very pertinent to that because managed moves don't count as part of the exclusion. So, the exclusion rates will differ from area to area, depending on the policy on managed moves.
Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about attendance? Anything about attendance with looked-after children? Any evidence of—
Meilyr Rowlands: I'll have to look that up as well I think.
Julie Morgan AM: I think, Chair, if we can have some more information on all of this, it would be great.
John Griffiths AM: Okay, yes, we'll look forward to receiving that further information from you. Mark.
Mark Reckless AM: Could I just ask a follow-up to a response that we had last week when we had the EAS consortium in, amongst others? They told us that the specific grant—the pupil deprivation grant—principally for looked-after children, they were responsible for, and that certainly the vast bulk of that was spent on a specific programme, aimed not at LACs specifically, but at all children considered vulnerable at times of transition, particularly into year 7. Does that strike you as an appropriate use of that grant?
Meilyr Rowlands: I think transition is appropriate—that's quite sensible, but clearly if the grant is for looked-after children, it should be spent on looked-after children.
Mark Reckless AM: Are there any other comments on that approach? I think, to take up what EAS has said, there were difficulties about having particular programmes aimed specifically at individual looked-after children, and it was felt that they would benefit vulnerable children, who had more transitions between schools perhaps than others. Is that a sufficient link to justify how that grant is spent? I think this is really in the wider context of how much schools need to make sure this grant goes towards the group it's specified for, and to what extent it is acceptable to blur the boundaries of that and perhaps this is just an example of a higher degree of blurring than some others.
Meilyr Rowlands: I don't know enough about this particular initiative to comment, but I would have thought that looked-after children is a very small group and if you were to blur it that much, then it wouldn't be very targeted. I would have thought that if the grant is specifically for looked-after children, it should be more targeted, but I don't know the details.
Mark Reckless AM: Just following up on another point, I think you said that the 'PLASS' data—. I apologise that I'm not familiar with the abbreviation, but could you explain if anything was being done to address previously looked-after children who are now adopted and seeking to ensure that they are measured to that data to allow proper tracking. Is that work that's in hand, do you know? Could you just clarify for me the 'PLASS' description and what information system that that refers to?
Meilyr Rowlands: That's the information that schools give formally to Welsh Government and every so often, the data that is collected formally by Welsh Government is improved and expanded. Exclusions is a good example. Previously, exclusions weren't collected through PLASC—the pupil level annual school census—and so we had no proper data at all on exclusions. Now that's been improved, but I'm afraid I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here.
Mark Reckless AM: Well, I think what you were referring to—. I think you were saying that previously looked-after children who are now adopted, unlike looked-after children, that wasn't tracked by the PLASC data.
Simon Brown: That's our understanding. Looked-after children are differentiated, but whether they're adopted or not—whether any children are adopted—isn't picked up in the data at the moment.
Mark Reckless AM: But I think for the grant, it's previously looked-after children who have since been adopted rather than all adopted children, isn't it?
John Griffiths AM: Again, perhaps you could clarify that for us in the further information that you will provide.
Meilyr Rowlands: Although, you'd probably be better off asking the Welsh Government directly.
Mark Reckless AM: Yes, I agree—I think that would be better, but just to clarify finally from me, Chair: is your point that, if that group isn't measured, then it is difficult to target them with this grant, and if we want them to be targeted with this grant, we should ensure that they're tracked through that data system?
Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, that sounds sensible.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark, I think you have some further questions on Schools Challenge Cymru.
Mark Reckless AM: Yes. Did you consider that the Schools Challenge Cymru programme was a success?
Meilyr Rowlands: It was certainly variable. It lasted for a relatively short period of time, so it's quite difficult to be definitive about the evaluation of it, but it was certainly variable. It varied from school to school. Some were very successful, some didn't make as much improvement. If it had lasted longer, maybe it would have made a difference. Overall, the data made—. There were improvements overall for the 40 schools over and above the general improvement that there was for all schools in Wales. So, you could say that it was successful in that respect. So, it's quite difficult to say whether it was successful, because that was a fairly limited improvement for quite a lot of money. It is, you know, quite a difficult judgment to say whether it was successful or not overall. What strikes one, I think, was the variability in the success of it, and I think that was clear also at an operational level. It was clearly more successful in certain areas where all the various people involved in the work worked together effectively. So, the challenge adviser and the local authority and the regional consortia were all working effectively together. And, in other cases, they weren't, and there had to be changes in personnel and that sort of thing. So, it was quite variable.
Mark Reckless AM: Of the five schools within the programme that Estyn actually inspected in the last year of the programme, I think that three of those were in special measures and two required significant improvement. Doesn't that suggest that, as far as Estyn engaged with the programme, your evidence was not to suggest that it was being successful?
Meilyr Rowlands: Not wildly successful, certainly, but many of these schools would have been in those sorts of categories in the past as well. So, it's not very surprising that many of them still remained. So, it wasn't a huge success, clearly. As you say, many of these schools are still struggling schools, so it hasn't been a panacea.
Mark Reckless AM: Bearing in mind your remarks earlier over the focus on key stage 4, in particular the C to D grade boundary, what sort of minimum length of time should a programme like this run for if we are to expect success?
Meilyr Rowlands: That's a hugely difficult question to answer, and it is at the core of whether this initiative was successful. There has been research, and people have looked at things like the City Challenge and have suggested that two or three years is too short a period to make a proper evaluation of how successful those particular initiatives were. I don't know of similar evaluations to that particular point in Wales for the Schools Challenge Cymru, but with similar initiatives in England, the suggestion has been that you need at least three years to be able to evaluate it properly.
Mark Reckless AM: The Schools Challenge Cymru advisers, I understand that Estyn met with those termly through the programme. Can you explain how useful that engagement was, and also perhaps compare or contrast it to the ongoing engagement you have with the advisers from the regional consortia?
Meilyr Rowlands: You know, the engagement we had with local authorities, and regional consortia, and with Schools Challenge Cymru advisers was not really a problem for us. That was fine. I think the engagement with each other was more of the issue, really. I think the challenge for Schools Challenge Cymru was that it was introduced at a time when regional consortia were just beginning. So, you had a period of time when it wasn't entirely clear what the responsibilities of regional consortia were, compared with local authorities. That has developed and clarified over time, but at that time it wasn't entirely clear. Plus, you were bringing in another player to the school improvement landscape. When all of those different agencies worked well together, then that was a positive thing for schools. When they were all saying the same thing, having that extra resource, extra money, extra attention, was a positive thing; but, clearly, in some cases, that relationship didn't always work, and some schools felt that they were being told different things by different agencies. Clearly, that was one of the reasons why that wasn't as successful.
Mark Reckless AM: So, is Welsh Government now trying to do, through the regional consortia, what it was then trying to do through Schools Challenge Cymru?
Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what you had then was you had all three: you had local authorities and regional consortia and Schools Challenge Cymru. So, what you have now is a clearer demarcation of who does what. I don't think what Welsh Government are doing now is the same as what they were trying to do in Schools Challenge Cymru, because I think what Schools Challenge Cymru did, and did well, I think, was identify that there are a small number of secondary schools that have particular challenges and they need over and above the normal local authority/regional consortia support, they need over and above that a certain quantum of support and resource. I think that's specifically what Schools Challenge Cymru was trying to do, and that's not quite the same as what the more universal provision of regional consortia is.
John Griffiths AM: Okay, that's all we have time for in this session, I'm afraid. There are some questions that we haven't reached that we'll write to you on to obtain further responses, and there are some matters that you've identified where you need to provide us with further information also. May I thank you very much for coming along this morning to give evidence? You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Thank you very much. The committee will now break for just over six minutes until 11:30. Welcome back, for item 3 on our agenda today, scrutiny of Estyn's annual report for 2016-17. We've got a number of areas to cover, but please, Members, feel free to raise whatever issues you think appropriate, because the areas that we've identified are a general guide only. Okay, welcome back to Estyn, our witnesses for this session also. I don't know if we need further introductions. I don't think we do, really; we've already had that on the record. So, we'll move straight into questions then, and Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you very much. Just to start with, what's your opinion about the way the Government has been introducing reforms in this area over this past inspection cycle? In general, what is your opinion about how effective that has been and how much of an impression has it had?
Meilyr Rowlands: Well the seven year cycle encompasses three Governments if truth be told, but there has been a sense of continuity and progress made in the nature of policy work in general, starting with the fundamental things such as literacy and numeracy in the first instance and also behaviour and attendance, as I said earlier this morning. And then they've developed a far more comprehensive scheme that is at the heart of the development of the curriculum and pedagogy specifically. And I think that that general shift from the foundations—of literacy and numeracy—moving towards the curriculum and pedagogy does make sense. And the other trend that we've seen is to promote collaboration and the self-improvement system, as it's called. I also think that there are a number of progressive countries doing the same kind of thing. So, I think that the general direction is right.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, you think—and I'd agree—that the focus on pedagogy is correct and that this culture that appears to be putting more emphasis on self-improvement, and so on, is a positive one. Are there aspects that haven't worked as well in your opinion?
Meilyr Rowlands: Of course, one accepts that one would like to see development and progress happening far more quickly, but, even in that instance, we need to balance the need that we all have to see progress with the pressures that are on teachers—there are so many things changing. I think that the most striking aspect in looking back over the past seven years is that all aspects of work in the education system—I'm trying to avoid saying 'schools', because it's more than just schools; it's colleges and the system as a whole—have changed. All aspects of that have changed, and I think that we need that—all of those aspects need to be changed and improved—but we need to balance that against the fact that we need to not go so fast, because workload on teachers—. This responsibility of self-improvement means that there is more pressure on teachers and headteachers, ultimately. That's why Estyn was very pleased to collaborate with 15 other bodies to give guidance on workload for teachers, because we have to be very careful to get that right as well.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: But is it disappointing, then, in the latest annual report, that you are to all intents and purposes coming to the conclusion that the performance is consistent with how it has been over the past inspection cycle? Would you not expect some kind of progress or something more significant in terms of outcomes?
Meilyr Rowlands: That's one way of looking at it. Another way, as I said earlier, is that all of these things are changing and, under those particular circumstances, that it's a good thing that teachers and the education system have been able to maintain standards and the quality of education.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: The sector, of course, is continually evolving. We know that a number of these reforms are still playing out and are still being developed and introduced. Of course, there is a risk that we are in this situation continuously, and therefore settling for managing to maintain, for me, perhaps wouldn't show enough ambition. Is there a risk that we will find ourselves continually—? As you say, the inspection cycle has seen three Governments. There are changes and different policies and priorities being implemented. From what you say, that does prevent the development of the sector.
Meilyr Rowlands: We are in the middle of a period of major change, and you're right that there is more change to come. The new curriculum will reach key stage 4 in around seven years again, so we're genuinely in the middle of this period of change. Perhaps 'revolutionary' is too strong a word, but it is the biggest change that I've seen in my career. You have to go back to the 1980s and 1990s to see similar changes. Of course, we all wish to see swifter progress being made, but what that means in practice is that you push more changes through, or that you push through the changes that we currently have more quickly. There was discussion, for example, about when the new curriculum should be introduced. Those are the kinds of practical questions that arise, and you have to remember that, in the classroom, what you will have are individual teachers having to prepare for a new GCSE, a new A-level, and there are new specifications in that regard, and it's a great deal of work. So, we have to be very careful when we say that we need to accelerate that process.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you understand the point I was making about the risk of finding ourselves like this continually and therefore to say, if we were to interpret your conclusion in the recent report, that outcomes have been consistent over the inspection cycle doesn't mean that we are pushing enough or that the reforms happen in a way that allows progress in performance terms.
Meilyr Rowlands: I would wish to see that we wouldn't be in this position continuously. I think that—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you've just suggested that there are seven years ahead of us yet in terms of introducing these reforms.
Meilyr Rowlands: But I do think that the reforms, in looking at them holistically, are fundamental, as I was saying. You have to go back 30, 40 years to see something similar. So, I do think that we need to look at—. One of the problems—. You ask what hasn't worked in the past. Well, I think one of the things, and it's difficult to answer that question, but one of the things that hasn't worked in the past is just doing one aspect of the system. We need to look at transforming the entire education system at the same time, because if you just tinker with one part then it might have an unintended effect in another place. So, I think we need to look at the system as a whole, and I think that what's happening at the moment is a structural change to the system.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, I think that's a fair enough point. What's your assessment, therefore, of how able or how ready schools are to deal with, in moving forward now, all of these changes and reforms?
Meilyr Rowlands: Well, as I said, I think that they have coped with a whole host of changes, and that's something to be praised. We are disappointed the standards haven't improved as much as we would have liked to have seen, but we also need to be congratulating the workforce for getting to grips with so many changes in a relatively short period. So, that does give one confidence that they will be able to cope with other changes in future. So, I am confident in that sense, but we do have to be careful in looking out for the workload, because the culture of promoting is one of giving more responsibilities to teachers, to schools, to colleges and to headteachers. So, we have to be very careful that that workload doesn't become excessive.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Would you also share the concern that the reduction in school budgets will worsen those risks that you referred to?
Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. As you'll know, international research evidence shows that it is not the amount of funding that goes into education systems that dictates how effective they are. But it is true to say that, if you have financial cuts, that does cause practical problems for headteachers in having to lay off staff, and so on. So, it does take a lot of time and energy to deal with cuts.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thanks.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. Mark.
Mark Reckless AM: Could I ask the reasons for Professor Donaldson being asked to undertake a review of Estyn's role?
Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think any good organisation would welcome external scrutiny. I would say that, wouldn't I, because I'm an inspector, but I think it's important that we practise what we preach. There have been in the past systems of quinquennial reviews. I think it is healthy for anybody to have that sort of external view, and I think in particular we're proud in Estyn that we are a body that is developing and trying new things and evolving continuously. So, I think it's that. But if you were to ask, 'Why now?', it's because of the extent of the education reform that we're particularly facing. So, I think it's a good thing to do at any given time, but considering the range and speed of change that we're facing in education now, I thought it was particularly important that we ask Graham Donaldson to look at the implications for our work of all this education reform.
Mark Reckless AM: What have been the biggest benefits to Wales of having Estyn as an independent body inspecting schools and other institutions in Wales compared to the work that Ofsted has done in England?
Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we have very good relationships with Ofsted and with Education Scotland and the Education Training Inspectorate in Northern Ireland. I wouldn't like to compare—I don't think it would be fair to compare ourselves. We do things slightly differently, but we benefit a lot from each other. We have inspectors from Ofsted or from Scotland, from Northern Ireland, on our inspections. We shadow them, and our inspectors go to their countries. So, we're working quite closely with the home countries, but also further afield with Holland and with the Republic of Ireland, for example. So, we're always, all of us, learning from one another about what we think they do well and what they think we do well. We're constantly learning from each other. I wouldn't think it's fair for me to say what I think—you know, where we're better than another country.
Mark Reckless AM: Of course. I'm not asking you to criticise Ofsted. I agree that wouldn't be appropriate. But I think what is fair for me to ask is: perhaps could you highlight one or two areas where you believe that Estyn has a particular difference of emphasis and approach from Ofsted?
Meilyr Rowlands: I think one of the things we've done and we've developed over many years is the use of the nominee and peer inspectors in particular. So, we've got, I think, a really good tradition of doing that in Wales, and when we do meet other inspectorates, they're always very interested in that part of our work. We're a very small organisation; we're only about 50 HMIs. We inspect a wide range of sectors, as you know, but the bulk of that inspection work is actually done now by peer inspectors. So, I think that, and the idea of a nominee, is also of interest to other inspectorates across the world. So, there's always someone from the body that we are inspecting on the inspection team. They're part of all the discussions so they actually understand how we've come to our report, and they can then help the organisation move forward after we've left.
Mark Reckless AM: I've clashed with Welsh Ministers on the absence of league tables for schools in Wales, with less accountability for their results than is the case in England. I note it as a parent myself. But, from, I think, at some point in 2014, you started in your inspection reports of primary schools putting the comparison of how they were doing compared to other schools and local authorities and nationally, as well as what you've described as their family of schools, and being more transparent over their key stage 2 results. So, what led you to do that? What difference has that made? And was that decision taken by Estyn on its own account, or was that something that was agreed with Welsh Ministers?
Meilyr Rowlands: I did listen to Plenary, so I've heard you raise this issue. I'm sure it's inadvertent on your part, but you've confused absolutely everyone with this.
Mark Reckless AM: I'm pleased to let you set the record straight, then.
Meilyr Rowlands: It's not actually true. The data that you refer to is published by the Welsh Government on My Local School. So, if you want to know about your own school or any other school, you should go onto that website. That's hugely—. It's very clear. There's a huge amount of data on it, but it's very, very clear. You can look at it in terms of tables and data and graphs and it shows all that data that you refer to, and that's the right place to have it. We do refer to some of that data in our reports, because our reports are based on evidence. Most of it is first-hand evidence that we see in the classroom and see in pupils' work, but we triangulate that with data and with what parents and pupils say and interviews with staff. So, we refer to that data and we always have referred to the data. Pre 2014, it was in the body of the text, and then after 2014 we put it in an appendix. We had a mid-cycle review and people felt it would be better in an appendix than in the body of the text, but it was always there. There's pros and cons on whether it should be in the body of the text or in an appendix.
Mark Reckless AM: Well, certainly, the data became clear to me in reports after 2014 in a way it wasn't before. So, I will leave that there. Can I just highlight a few of what I felt were either particularly striking statistics or comparisons or points that were made in your annual report of potential concern? You state that headteachers do not understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice in about three quarters of schools—this relates to the foundation phase. I find that quite a shocking statistic. Do you share that view?
Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. That's why I highlighted it in my foreword. I think there is a general consensus about the benefits of the foundation phase. There's a lot of research, and our own evidence shows that, where it is implemented well, pupils benefit a lot from it and they're well prepared to be independent thinkers. So, it's a development that we should be proud of in Wales, I think, the foundation phase. It's a great thing. But, we are disappointed that only about a quarter of primary schools are implementing it fully. There's a whole range of reasons, as I discuss in the annual report, why that might be the case. It is quite an innovative idea, and I think it's misunderstood by saying it's learning through play, because that's a bit too simplistic a definition of it. We have written a report recently on good practice in the foundation phase, so that we can try and explain clearly to people what the benefits of it are and how best to implement it. But I think it is true that too many headteachers—. Many of them might not have taught in foundation phase, they might not have that infant background, they might have a junior-school background. There might not have been enough—well, we say there wasn't enough training—or there might be people who missed any training that there was then. So, overall, there is a large number of leaders who don't fully appreciate what the foundation phase could deliver.
John Griffiths AM: Darren—is it on this?
Darren Millar AM: Yes, it is on this. I was just wondering—. I mean, one of the problems that I know you've identified in the past is this lack of good practice being able to travel into all parts of Wales, and, of course, we've got local authorities, we've got regional consortia, we've got the Welsh Government—all of which want to see good practice replicated where possible. What opportunities are there, perhaps, to develop some other further opportunities for good practice to be shared and promoted? I know that the Wales Audit Office, for example, has its good practice exchange. Is there something similar that schools can engage with to make things happen?
Meilyr Rowlands: It's a good question. I mean, specifically to do with foundation phase, there is a foundation phase—I can't remember what it's called now—excellence network I think, which is being relaunched. I think it was supposed to be relaunched during the snow period. So, there are networks being established. There's one for mathematics—a national network for excellence in mathematics—there's one for science and there's one for foundation phase in particular. So, I think it is a challenge that we haven't cracked yet in Wales: how do we make sure that good practice does travel? I think one specifically for foundation phase is a good idea, because we've got a specific issue with the foundation phase.
Mark Reckless AM: When you say that—
John Griffiths AM: Mark, just before you go on, I think Julie wanted to come in on this point as well.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I just wondered if you could give us some examples about how the foundation phase is not being implemented in the true spirit of the foundation phase in the three quarters of schools that you think fall—.
Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what we mean by that is schools not necessarily teaching badly, but in a more traditional way. And where we've seen that most obviously is in year 1 and year 2. Some schools actually reverted, after the introduction of the new tests, from what was pedagogy that was in line with the foundation phase. And basically, if I understand it correctly, it's more to do with the children making their own choices about what they do. And that is pretty common in nursery and reception classes, but it's less common in year 1 and year 2.
Claire Morgan: I think it is very much, as Meilyr said, the difference between a pupil-led learning experience or a teacher-led learning experience. Because of the lack of training and maybe the confidence to pursue that active and experiential learning approach, teachers have tended to resort to what they feel more comfortable with, which is more of an adult-led learning—often still high quality, but it doesn't ensure that the learners become far more independent, far more engaged in their learning. So, it's almost holding children back to an extent. They're making good progress, but they could be making even more progress.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark.
Mark Reckless AM: So, when you say that some teachers are sort of holding children back, and in the report that three quarters of schools don't understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice, what you mean is that teachers are using traditional methods, including whole-class teaching, rather than moving towards a pupil-led learning experience and one that you said was oversimplified as learning through play. May not the issue here therefore be that Estyn is seeking to impose this different approach on teachers who think that they are better able to teach children in the traditional way, which, at least in my experience, would be supported by quite a number of parents?
Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think it's Estyn that's imposing it. That's the national policy.
Mark Reckless AM: Do you support that policy?
Meilyr Rowlands: Well, we do, actually. We do. Our evidence, as I said, is that, when it is implemented properly, pupils do actually gain from it. But we're not imposing it, and what we're saying is that headteachers are not necessarily understanding it. I think there is quite a lot of jargon around it. I was just looking in the annual report. Quite unusually, in this section, we have had to actually explain some of the technical terms, like 'continuous provision'. So that's, I think, one of the reasons why people don't understand it fully. That's why we did produce this quite substantial bit of work, trying to unpack what this actually means in practice and giving a lot of good examples of the practice.
Mark Reckless AM: You referred to evidence of this approach working. Given the timing of when it was brought in and where we are now, has that really had time to distil through the system and give compelling evidence that this approach works better than more traditional approaches?
Meilyr Rowlands: I think it has, to be fair. I think this has, because we're talking about a lot of developmental work related to the foundation phase prior to 2010, but it became compulsory for all schools to deliver it from 2010 onwards. So, that gives enough time for children to have been through the whole of the foundation phase onto key stage 2, and we can see the effect of it. In the schools where there is good practice in the foundation phase, we can see the effect when we inspect on key stage 2 children.
Mark Reckless AM: So, would you be confident about this, in the next few years, feeding through into an improvement in Programme for International Student Assessments, rather than a further deterioration?
Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think that if we did what Darren was talking about, getting more schools to share good practice, I think it will expand and more schools will take it on, yes.
Mark Reckless AM: Okay. On the sharing of good practice, you put emphasis in the report on this being an improving area and trend for the future as well, but I think you did raise concerns that it wasn't monitored or evaluated sufficiently well, particularly where one school was supporting another. How should that be done better?
Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think this has been a theme of many of the issues we've raised: that, whatever the initiative, you can't tell whether it's been successful or not unless you evaluate it properly. So, those evaluation skills, I think, are very important. I think that, with the development of the national academy for educational leadership, I would hope that research skills and evaluative skills would be part of the kind of training that headteachers get that maybe in the past they didn't. So, that becomes more of the day-to-day work of schools—that naturally, whenever you do something, you evaluate it afterwards. We've evaluated a lot of the school-to-school work. We've published two or three reports on it, and we've identified what we think is good practice and not-so-good practice.
John Griffiths AM: Okay, Mark? If we move on at this stage—I wonder, before other Members come in, if I could ask about community-focused schools. Quite a lot of what we discussed earlier was around the importance of getting families and the community more involved in education, and one way of doing that, I think, is through community-focused schools that are very much accessible to the community, linked well with outside organisations, having an extended school-day offer. We have the twenty-first century schools programme, but we have a lot of schools existing that haven't been part of that. I just wondered to what extent Estyn might encourage or highlight the need to encourage greater consistency in community-focused schools across Wales, because I think there is a feeling that it is very inconsistent.
Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we would very much be happy to support anything like that. We discussed it earlier. We were talking about targeting vulnerable learners earlier this morning. We see that as, particularly, a solution for that long-standing issue we have in Wales in particular. So, yes, we do have good examples of good practice. We mentioned some of them earlier this morning. I've puzzled about this. I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding about the term 'community-focused school'. I think it became thought of as meaning the community just uses the facilities in the evening and, of course, it's a much, much broader concept than that. I think some schools particularly didn't like the community using their facilities in the evening, and that became, I think, possibly part of the reason why community-focused schools didn't become more popular. The way I look at it is, as Claire was explaining earlier about the school offering all kinds of services to people—you know, family learning, those sorts of nurture groups, all those sorts of educationally focused services available from the school, and generally building relationships. They're more to do with the culture than the actual building and the facilities. But, yes, we certainly have seen and identified where that good practice exists.
John Griffiths AM: So, if there might be a mechanism that could have community-focused schools working in the way that you've described right across Wales, would Estyn be in favour of such a mechanism?
Meilyr Rowlands: Absolutely, yes.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I just ask one further question, then, before, as I said, I bring other Members in? There is a particular concern at the moment—and has been for some time—about white working-class children, and perhaps particularly boys, not attaining as they should through our education system. Is that something that Estyn recognises? Has Estyn done much work on that, and if so, what is that work?
Meilyr Rowlands: We've done work on boys and girls, and we've done work on deprived children—you know, identified, as we were discussing this morning, by eligibility for free school meals. We haven't specifically looked at white working-class boys, but a lot of the solutions, and a lot of the good practice that we have identified generally, through the PDG and whatever I think is the way forward for that particular cohort as well.
John Griffiths AM: So, you wouldn't see the need for a particular focus or a particular piece of work to identify whether there are aspects of education that might particularly benefit that group.
Meilyr Rowlands: I wouldn't object to doing a piece of work on that, in case we have missed something, but I suspect it would be the same schools that do well with that cohort that we've identified already for the same reasons, I suspect.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Michelle.
Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. To what extent has the rate of improvement differed between the primary and secondary sectors?
Meilyr Rowlands: I'm not sure if there's been a difference in the rate of improvement, but certainly I've raised in this annual report, and indeed in previous annual reports, the difference between primary and secondary. We've got 7 in 10—nearly three quarters—of primary schools doing well and about half of secondary schools. So, I did open debate on why that is the case in last year's annual report. There are several reasons, I think. Generally, there is a widening of gaps when you go from primary to secondary, but also it's from foundation phase to key stage 2 to key stage 3 to key stage 4. There's a general widening of the gender gap, for example. There's a widening of the free-school-meals gap and so forth. So, there are particular challenges facing secondary schools that don't exist in primary. I should say that what you get in secondary schools is greater variability. So, there's actually more excellence in secondary schools according to our inspections than in primary, although the overall proportion of good or better schools is higher in primary than in secondary. So, I think it is a challenge to think why this is the case. It's partly because of the challenges of adolescent, young people. That is part of it. I think also, although I've got no evidence for this, it's probably more difficult for that community focus to work in a larger secondary school than a smaller primary school. You go to primary schools, you often see the parents much more engaged than in secondary school. So, I think that's a bit more of a challenge as well. So, there is a whole range of issues. The other one, of course, is the one we were talking about earlier this morning, the pressure on secondary schools to address performance indicators and examinations in particular. Another possible reason is the structure of secondary schools is subject-based, departmental-based, so children will get 10 to 12 different teachers. In primary school, for a whole year, they will have the same teacher. It's easier, therefore, in a primary school for the school to see the child as an individual and recognise their problems and their needs as a whole. So, I think there is a whole range of issues that explains or goes part way to explaining what you've identified.
Michelle Brown AM: Okay, thank you. You touched on this quite a bit in your earlier evidence, but you said in the annual report that there's a danger that accountability measures might be having an effect on the advice being given to pupils about subjects they study. Do you have any evidence of that or is that a perception?
Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think everyone agrees that there's very strong evidence about that. We discussed examples this morning. When you change a performance indicator, the examination pattern changes. We talked about examples like BTEC science this morning. There's a very, very direct and immediate impact on them. There's plenty of evidence of that.
John Griffiths AM: Okay, Michelle? Perhaps we'll move on at this stage—we haven't got a great deal of time left—if that's okay. Julie.
Julie Morgan AM: I wanted to ask about special schools in terms of your views about the standards in special schools—whether you've got any views on that.
Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we highlighted special schools as a successful sector in the annual report, as we have over many years. Over 90 per cent of them are good or better. It's a very successful sector. The small number of schools that don't do quite as well tend to be the schools that deal with children with emotional and behavioural difficulties. But the sector as a whole is a good example of sharing good practice. They work very, very well together. They're constantly—. It's difficult to say why that is in this particular sector, as opposed to other sectors. Possibly they don't have an overlap in catchment areas, they're quite geographically separate, so they don't feel as if they're in competition with one another. But they certainly work very well together, sharing good practice, doing peer reviews of each other. So, it is a successful sector.
Julie Morgan AM: And that includes the independent sector.
Meilyr Rowlands: Sorry, I should have said that was mainly to do with the maintained sector. The independent sector tends to focus maybe on those children with emotional and behavioural difficulties, so they have the more difficult task to begin with. But because they're independent, they are, to some extent, in competition with one another. So, we have seen improvement in that independent special sector over the cycle. That's partly down to the work we do in Estyn. We visit them on an annual basis to make sure that they're addressing all our recommendations, and continue to meet the needs of those pupils. And also, I think there's been a trend where more of those independent schools now have—. Several of them have the same owner, so they share good practice amongst that little chain of schools. So, that has been a trend we've seen over time as well.
Julie Morgan AM: Right. And what about pupil referral units? How are the standards there?
Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, they're more variable. I think they have a lot of challenges. We've contributed a lot of evidence to the various working groups that have been looking at EOTAS—that's education other than at school. Half the children in EOTAS—educated other than at school—are in PRUs. So, we've done a lot of work about that. ADEW, which is the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, have now set up a national body to share good practice amongst PRUs, so I think that is a very positive step forward, because that sharing, I think, wasn't happening with PRUs. I think what we need to do with PRUs is to get them to be more of a part of the education system as a whole. They tend to be sort of semi-detached a little bit from the system. So, the more we can do to involve them in national events, and also, I think, make their governance more like that of a school so that they become more similar to schools—that makes it easier for them to share practice with schools.
John Griffiths AM: Okay, thank you very much. Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. I'd just like to spend a minute or two looking more specifically at post-16 education. The percentage of further education colleges who have reached a good or better standard has increased, of course, over the past inspection cycle. I'd just like to ask what you think is responsible for that, and are there any lessons we can take out of that and transfer to other sectors within education?
Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question, but I'm going to ask Simon to answer.
Simon Brown: As you're aware, the number of colleges from 22 to 12, and I think those mergers resulted in establishments that were stronger in terms of their leadership in particular. That leadership, I think the characteristics we have seen in the 'good' or 'better'—as you say, 80 per cent leadership good or better—has been a culture of openness, a culture of clarity of purpose about where the college is going. High staff morale has been maintained, because a number of those colleges—. Obviously, if you're merging large colleges as they did in north Wales, keeping staff morale high is quite a skill, and I think the leadership have done that very well. They've also supported managers at all levels, and they've encouraged managers to support staff at all levels. So, it's become a very collaborative, very supportive organisation. I think another characteristic of the FE sector is that it's got very strong governance arrangements. I did a training session for college governors about a month ago, and what struck me was the breadth of experience of the college governors, from industry, from academia. They are a very challenging set of governors, I think, who hold the senior leadership to account in the colleges, and that helps to push standards forward. Teaching is 'good' or 'better' in 70 per cent of colleges because the senior leadership team are encouraging teachers in colleges to innovate, encouraging them to engage actively in performance management systems, and to become reflective practitioners in the colleges. And this is impacting, obviously, on the standards at the end of the day. So, I think those are the key features.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: And how many of those do you think could effectively be transferred or encouraged in other sectors?
Simon Brown: But I think one sector that—. I think the other post-16 sector, which is work-based learning—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, yes, I was going to ask you. Conversely, of course, there's a different experience there.
Simon Brown: Yes, there is a contrast. And we do have concerns about work-based learning. And, again, those concerns tend to sit mainly with the leadership. As we said in the annual report, standards are 'good' or 'better' in only 50 per cent of work-based learning companies, mainly because the completion rates of learners are not what we'd expect, the progression that learners make isn't what we'd expect. And that is mainly due to the way in which the leadership teams monitor progress—monitor progress in themselves as a provider, but, more importantly, the way they manage sub-contractors, because, as you will already know, there's 19 lead providers; there's about 100 training providers. And the companies that are doing better, or the training providers doing better, are those that have got a firm grip on their sub-contractors, and, most importantly, they put quality as the top part of any agenda at any meeting. And, of course, if you're challenging your sub-contractors about quality, that will impact on standards of teaching, and, hopefully, ultimately, on standards of performance on the learners. And I think, to go back to your original question, Llyr, the sort of leadership models that FE colleges have, I think some of the work-based learning providers would be wise to start to emulate those. It's beginning to happen, because FE is getting more engaged in the work-based learning world, so I think some of those behaviours will start to rub off on the companies.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, who would you look to drive some of those changes through then? Is it the sector themselves, or to what extent can Government and others do things?
Simon Brown: Well, as you know, Meilyr alluded to the changes across all sectors. We've got PCET—we've got the post-compulsory education and training reforms under way. The Welsh Government is looking at the implementation of Hazelkorn's recommendations. So, ultimately, that will start to drive the sectors closer together in post-16. But I think, in the shorter term, some of the work that groups like Colegau Cymru and the National Training Federation Wales are doing, sharing best practice, bringing the colleges and the training companies together, is beginning to help. I'm going to the national training federation conference tomorrow in Cardiff, and I notice the attendance there—there's a lot of FE colleges attending, senior staff of FE colleges, as well as from the work-based training companies. So, that sort of osmosis of good practice is beginning to happen quite naturally.
John Griffiths AM: Okay, Llyr? We haven't got very long left, but we've got five minutes or so for some further questions from Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: With regard to local authorities, you found shortcomings in your 2010-14 inspection in 15 of the 22. And one of the things that struck me in the report was where you said that you found ineffective processes for self-evaluating improvement within those authorities, but you've also said that there's been a high turnover of directors and new directors in place in many of them. Has that had a positive effect on that self-evaluation process?
Simon Brown: As you're aware, over the past three years, out of the 22 authorities, there have been 40 new directors, over the past three years. Those directors have got a range of experience. Some of those directors are very experienced. Other ones have come from headteachership fairly recently. So, that's one factor. I think the other factor is that the status of education directors has changed quite significantly. Some local authorities are a member of the corporate team and they are directors of education and children's services, so they've got very broad portfolios. In other ones, they're being treated more like heads of service, so heads of department level.
Hefin David AM: I know that Caerphilly went in the opposite direction—from having a chief education officer to then appointing a director, I think.
Simon Brown: I'm sorry?
Hefin David AM: In Caerphilly county borough, they went from having a chief education officer and now have got a director again. But, in many cases, they're the same people, aren't they? It's just that their roles are changed.
Simon Brown: Yes, it's the changes as the corporate structure of councils shift and change. I think the other thing that's happened, of course, with the role of the director of education, is, because of the regional consortia now doing the school improvement function, a large chunk of that role has now moved to the consortia. So, I think it's early days to say what the impact of that new cohort of directors will be, but, of course, we're starting a new inspection cycle in September. We don't do pilots. We looked at Neath Port Talbot in December; we looked at Denbighshire in February. Those reports are not yet published, but what I can say is that neither of those authorities are in follow-up.
Hefin David AM: But you said, even though it's not in follow-up, it was still showing signs of not being able to reflect effectively on improvement—in the report.
Simon Brown: Not in those two authorities.
Hefin David AM: Right, okay, but some of those not in follow-up were not reflecting effectively on their improvement—is the statement that was made in the report.
Simon Brown: What we're seeing, and we've seen this before in the previous cycle, is that the performance of some authorities is patchy. There are authorities that we have concerns about. Those are the authorities—. I think I said to committee last year those authorities are ones that we held improvement conferences in last year. That was to get the senior leadership—both political and officer-led leadership—and the consortia and Welsh Government and the Wales Audit Office and, as it was, the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales, around the table to get those senior leadership teams to actually identify what the longer-term issues are, to surface those issues and to put together an action plan. We're revisiting those three authorities very, very shortly. The first of the revisits is in April to see what progress they've made over the past 12 months or so.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And, with things like the curriculum reforms, you've identified the new directors in place, but you've said that, although they're new directors, they're actually very experienced in education, so therefore you're confident that they're going to manage the reforms well as they are developed in the next few years.
Simon Brown: I think one development, and I've raised this in committee before, was—. One of our concerns, apart from the fact that there was a large turnover of directors, was what sort of level of training senior leaders and middle managers were getting in those authorities. One of the things that I'm quite pleased to report is that the Association of Directors of Education in Wales and Welsh Government have stepped up to address that issue. Last year, all serving directors attended residential courses run by the Staff College Wales, facilitated by ADEW, and ADEW have just finished the first round of director—. The name of the course is the 'Welsh future leaders in education' course and 26 people have just finished that—aspiring directors. They're preparing for another cohort in September. That course, again, is developed by the Staff College Wales, but it has a lot of external input. They're putting in directors and chief executives from Scotland, they're putting in headteachers of very successful schools in England, who've got current grass-roots experience to share with these aspiring directors. So, I think the concerns that we had previously about the professional learning for middle managers and leaders in local authorities are being addressed. The proof will be in the pudding when we start to do the inspection cycle, but at least the issue now is being tackled.
Hefin David AM: Can I just look at, then, consortia? One of the criticisms in the report was that national policy wasn't being put in context—I think that was the statement in the report—in certain consortia. Can you elaborate on what you meant by that?
Simon Brown: Yes, when we talked, we said that—. Well, two things are at play. One is that the national model for regional working is being revised at the moment, and that work is ongoing by Welsh Government. That is to bring greater consistency to the four consortia, because one of our concerns, which we expressed in this report and we expressed in previous years, is that, although the national model had a particular approach back in 2012, when Robert Hill did the first review, it had a particular approach to the consortia being fairly similar, over the years, they've gone in four different directions. To be fair, over the past couple of years, the consortia are now collaborating much closer together. They are working together—for example, I mentioned earlier about the regional co-ordinators for LAC. Those four people are meeting regularly. So, they've all got different co-ordination roles in their regions. Whereas before they were working more in silos, they are now working much closer together. So, I think what we were referring to, and what we were talking about in the report, is the fact that the consortia need to have a more consistent approach across all four regions. But that will certainly be driven by the new national model.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And the relationships with local authorities, you said that the sharing of information with the local authorities is not always acted upon by local authorities—from the consortia. Is that a failure of communication, or is that something that sits with the local authority to acknowledge?
Simon Brown: I don't think it's a failure of communication. In the cases where some authorities haven't acted sufficiently in intervening in schools or in issuing warning letters, the consortia have been quite clear. The challenge advisers have highlighted these issues. It's the authority that hasn't acted as swiftly as we would expect it to. But, again, I think that is beginning to improve, because the local authorities are quite sensitive to the fact we are now going to be re-inspecting them and looking at them, and that is one of the issues we'll be picking up on.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And, in order to do their jobs, the consortia need to be suitably resourced. Are they, and are they fit for the challenges ahead?
Simon Brown: It's not for us to comment on whether each consortium is sufficiently funded or not, but what we would say is that, generally, in the past, they've spent perhaps too large a proportion of their funds on challenge work and not enough funding on support work, but that, again, is moving. We've picked up that GwE, for example, is in the process of renaming their challenge advisers 'support advisers', because they're moving their culture more over to supporting schools to deal with all the raft of reforms that Meilyr mentioned, and that is, it seems to me, an entirely sensible way to go.
Hefin David AM: Okay. Thank you.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Well, that brings this session to an end. So, thank you all very much once again for giving evidence to committee today. Once again, you will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy. Diolch yn fawr. Okay, the next item on our agenda today, item 4, is papers to note. We have one paper to note, which is a letter from the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee to the Welsh Government regarding the Hwb programme. Is committee content to note that paper? Yes. Thank you very much. Item 5, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Is committee content so to do? Okay. Thank you very much. We will move into private session. | |
doc_104 | Grad A: OK . We seem to be recording .
Professor G: Alright !
Grad A: So , sorry about not {disfmarker}
Professor G: We 're not crashing .
PhD D: Number four .
Grad A: not pre - doing everything . The lunch went a little later than I was expecting , Chuck .
PhD E: Hmm ?
Professor G: OK .
PhD B: Chuck was telling too many jokes , or something ?
Grad A: Yep . Pretty much .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor G: OK . {vocalsound} Does anybody have an agenda ?
Grad A: No .
Postdoc F: Well , I 'm {disfmarker} I sent a couple of items . They 're {disfmarker} they 're sort of practical .
Professor G: I thought {pause} somebody had .
Postdoc F: I don't know if you 're {disfmarker}
Professor G: Yeah , that 's right .
Postdoc F: if {disfmarker} if that 's too practical for what we 're {pause} focused on .
Grad A: I mean , we don't want anything too practical .
Professor G: Yeah , we only want th useless things .
Grad A: Yeah , that would be {disfmarker}
Professor G: Yeah . No , why don't we talk about practical things ?
Postdoc F: OK .
Professor G: Sure .
Postdoc F: Well , um , I can {pause} give you an update on the {pause} transcription effort .
Professor G: Great .
Postdoc F: Uh , maybe {nonvocalsound} raise the issue of microphone , uh , um procedures with reference to the {pause} cleanliness of the recordings .
Professor G: OK , transcription , uh , microphone issues {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: And then maybe {nonvocalsound} ask , th uh , these guys . The {disfmarker} we have great {disfmarker} great , uh , p steps forward in terms of the nonspeech - speech pre - segmenting of the signal .
Professor G: OK .
Grad A: Well , we have steps forward .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Well , it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a big improvement .
PhD C: I would prefer this .
Professor G: Yes . Yeah , well . OK . Uh {disfmarker}
PhD D: We talk about the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the results of
Professor G: You have some {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad A: I have a little bit of IRAM stuff
Professor G: OK .
PhD D: use {disfmarker}
Grad A: but {pause} I 'm not sure if that 's of general interest or not .
Professor G: Uh , bigram ?
Grad A: IRAM .
PhD D: IRAM .
Professor G: IRAM .
Grad A: IRAM , bigram ,
Professor G: Well , m maybe .
PhD D: Bi - Bigram .
Grad A: you know .
Professor G: Yeah , let 's {disfmarker} let 's see where we are at three - thirty .
PhD B: Hmm .
Professor G: Um {disfmarker}
PhD B: Since , uh {disfmarker} since I have to leave as usual at three - thirty , can we do the interesting stuff first ?
Postdoc F: I beg your pardon ?
Professor G: Well {disfmarker}
PhD C: Which is {disfmarker} ?
Grad A: What 's the interesting stuff ?
Postdoc F: I beg your pardon ?
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: Yeah . Th - now you get to tell us what 's the interesting part .
PhD E: Please specify .
Professor G: But {disfmarker}
PhD B: Well , uh , I guess the work that 's been {pause} done on segmentation would be most {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc F: I think that would be a good thing to start with .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor G: OK . Um , and , um , {vocalsound} the other thing , uh , which I 'll just say very briefly that maybe relates to that a little bit , which is that , um , uh , one of the suggestions that came up in a brief meeting I had the other day when I was in Spain with , uh , Manolo Pardo and {vocalsound} Javier , uh , Ferreiros , who was {pause} here before , was , um , why not start with what they had before but add in the non - silence boundaries . So , in what Javier did before when they were doing , um {disfmarker} h he was looking for , uh , speaker change {pause} points .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: Um . As a simplification , he originally did this only using {pause} silence as , uh , a {pause} putative , uh , speaker change point .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor G: And , uh , he did not , say , look at points where you were changing broad sp uh , phonetic class , for instance . And for Broadcast News , that was fine . Here obviously it 's not .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: And , um , so one of the things that they were pushing in d in discussing with me is , um , w why are you spending so much time , uh , on the , uh , feature issue , uh , when perhaps if you sort of deal with what you were using before
PhD D: Uh - huh .
Professor G: and then just broadened it a bit , instead of just ta using silence as putative change point also {disfmarker} ?
PhD D: Nnn , yeah .
Professor G: So then you 've got {disfmarker} you already have the super - structure with Gaussians and H - you know , simple H M Ms and so forth . And you {disfmarker} you might {disfmarker} So there was a {disfmarker} there was a little bit of a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a difference of opinion because I {disfmarker} I thought that it was {disfmarker} it 's interesting to look at what features are useful .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: But , uh , on the other hand I saw that the {disfmarker} they had a good point that , uh , if we had something that worked for many cases before , maybe starting from there a little bit {disfmarker} Because ultimately we 're gonna end up {vocalsound} with some s su kind of structure like that ,
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: where you have some kind of simple HMM and you 're testing the hypothesis that , {vocalsound} uh , there is a change .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: So {disfmarker} so anyway , I just {disfmarker} reporting that .
PhD D: OK .
Professor G: But , uh , uh {disfmarker} So . Yeah , why don't we do the speech - nonspeech discussion ?
Postdoc F: Yeah . Do {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I hear {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you didn't {disfmarker}
PhD C: Speech - nonspeech ? OK .
Postdoc F: Uh - huh . Yeah .
PhD C: Um , so , uh , what we basically did so far was using the mixed file to {disfmarker} to detect s speech or nonspeech {pause} portions in that .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: And what I did so far is I just used our old Munich system , which is an HMM - ba based system with Gaussian mixtures for s speech and nonspeech . And it was a system which used only one Gaussian for silence and one Gaussian for speech . And now I added , uh , multi - mixture possibility for {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for speech and nonspeech .
Professor G: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD C: And I did some training on {disfmarker} on one dialogue , which was transcribed by {disfmarker} Yeah . We {disfmarker} we did a nons s speech - nonspeech transcription .
PhD D: Jose .
PhD C: Adam , Dave , and I , we did , for that dialogue and I trained it on that . And I did some pre - segmentations for {disfmarker} for Jane . And I 'm not sure how good they are or what {disfmarker} what the transcribers say . They {disfmarker} they can use it or {disfmarker} ?
Postdoc F: Uh , they {disfmarker} they think it 's a terrific improvement . And , um , it real it just makes a {disfmarker} a world of difference .
Professor G: Hmm .
Postdoc F: And , um , y you also did some something in addition which was , um , for those in which there {nonvocalsound} was , uh , quiet speakers in the mix .
PhD C: Yeah . Uh , yeah . That {disfmarker} that was one {disfmarker} one {disfmarker} one thing , uh , why I added more mixtures for {disfmarker} for the speech . So I saw that there were loud {disfmarker} loudly speaking speakers and quietly speaking speakers .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: And so I did two mixtures , one for the loud speakers and one for the quiet speakers .
Grad A: And did you hand - label who was loud and who was quiet , or did you just {disfmarker} ?
PhD C: I did that for {disfmarker} for five minutes of one dialogue
Grad A: Right .
PhD C: and that was enough to {disfmarker} to train the system .
PhD B: W What {disfmarker} ?
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD C: And so it {disfmarker} it adapts , uh , on {disfmarker} while running . So .
PhD B: What kind of , uh , front - end processing did you do ?
PhD C: Hopefully .
PhD D: OK .
PhD C: It 's just our {disfmarker} our old Munich , uh , loudness - based spectrum on mel scale twenty {disfmarker} twenty critical bands and then loudness .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: And four additional features , which is energy , loudness , modified loudness , and zero crossing rate . So it 's twenty - four {disfmarker} twenty - four features .
PhD B: Mmm .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: And you also provided me with several different versions ,
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc F: which I compared .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc F: And so you change {nonvocalsound} parameters . What {disfmarker} do you wanna say something about the parameters {nonvocalsound} that you change ?
PhD C: Yeah . You can specify {vocalsound} the minimum length of speech or {disfmarker} and silence portions which you want . And so I did some {disfmarker} some modifications in those parameters , basically changing the minimum {disfmarker} minimum {pause} length for s for silence to have , er to have , um {disfmarker} yeah {disfmarker} to have more or less , uh , silence portions in inserted . So .
Grad A: Right . So this would work well for , uh , pauses and utterance boundaries and things like that .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad A: But for overlap I imagine that doesn't work at all ,
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad A: that you 'll have plenty of s sections that are {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD C: That 's it . Yeah .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm , mm - hmm .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad A: But {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: That 's true . But {nonvocalsound} it {disfmarker} it saves so much time {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {nonvocalsound} transcribers
Professor G: Um {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yep .
Postdoc F: just enormous , enormous savings . Fantastic .
Professor G: That 's great . Um , just qu one quickly , uh , still on the features . So {vocalsound} you have these twenty - four features .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor G: Uh , a lot of them are spectral features . Is there a {disfmarker} a transformation , uh , like principal components transformation or something ?
PhD C: No .
Grad A: Yeah . It was IS two .
PhD C: No . W w we {disfmarker} originally we did that
Professor G: Just {disfmarker}
PhD C: but we saw , uh , when we used it , uh , f for our close - talking microphone , which {disfmarker} yeah , for our {disfmarker} for our recognizer in Munich {disfmarker} we saw that w it 's {disfmarker} it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not so necessary . It {disfmarker} it works as well f with {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} without , uh , a LDA or something .
Professor G: OK . OK . No , I was j {pause} curious .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: Yeah , I don't think it 's a big deal for this application ,
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Right .
Professor G: but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's a {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm . OK . But then there 's another thing that also Thilo 's involved with , which is , um {disfmarker} OK , and {disfmarker} and also Da - Dave Gelbart . So there 's this {disfmarker} this problem of {disfmarker} and w and {disfmarker} so we had this meeting . Th - the {nonvocalsound} {disfmarker} also Adam , before the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} before you went away . Uh we , um {disfmarker} regarding the representation {nonvocalsound} of overlaps , because at present , {nonvocalsound} {vocalsound} um , because {nonvocalsound} of the limitations of {vocalsound} th the interface we 're using , overlaps are , uh , not being {nonvocalsound} encoded by {nonvocalsound} the transcribers in as complete {nonvocalsound} and , uh , detailed a way as it might be , and as might be desired {disfmarker} I think would be desired in the corpus ultimately .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: So we don't have start and end points {nonvocalsound} at each point where there 's an overlap . We just have the {disfmarker} the {nonvocalsound} overlaps {nonvocalsound} encoded in a simple bin . Well , OK . So {nonvocalsound} @ @ the limits of the {nonvocalsound} over of {disfmarker} of the interface are {vocalsound} such that we were {disfmarker} at this meeting we were entertaining how we might either expand {nonvocalsound} the {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} interface or find other tools which already {pause} do what would be useful . Because what would ultimately be , um , ideal in my {disfmarker} my view and I think {disfmarker} I mean , I had the sense that it was consensus , is that , um , a thorough - going musical score notation would be {nonvocalsound} the best way to go . Because {nonvocalsound} you can have multiple channels , there 's a single time - line , it 's very clear , flexible , and all those nice things .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: OK . So , um , um , I spoke {disfmarker} I had a meeting with Dave Gelbart on {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} and he had , uh , excellent ideas on how {pause} the interface could be {pause} modified to {disfmarker} to do this kind of representation . But , um , he {disfmarker} in the meantime you were checking into the existence of already , um , existing interfaces which might already have these properties . So , do you wanna say something about that ?
PhD C: Yes . Um , I {vocalsound} talked with , uh , Munich guys from {disfmarker} from Ludwi - Ludwig Maximilians University , who do a lot of transcribing and transliterations .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: And they basically said they have {disfmarker} they have , uh , a tool they developed {pause} themselves and they can't give away , uh , f it 's too error - prone , and had {disfmarker} it 's not supported , a a a and {disfmarker}
Professor G: Yeah .
PhD C: But , um , Susanne Bur - Burger , who is at se CMU , he wa who was formally at {disfmarker} in Munich and w and is now at {disfmarker} with CMU , she said she has something which she uses to do eight channels , uh , trans transliterations , eight channels simultaneously ,
Professor G: Excuse me .
PhD C: but it 's running under Windows .
Postdoc F: Under Windows .
PhD C: So I 'm not sure if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if we can use it .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: She said she would give it to us .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: It wouldn't be a problem . And I 've got some {disfmarker} some kind of manual {pause} down in my office .
Grad A: Well , maybe we should get it and if it 's good enough we 'll arrange Windows machines to be available .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm . We could {disfmarker} uh , potentially {nonvocalsound} so .
Grad A: So .
Postdoc F: I also wanted to be sure {disfmarker} I mean , I 've {disfmarker} I 've seen the {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this is called Praat , PRAAT , {nonvocalsound} which I guess means spee speech in Dutch or something .
Grad A: Yep .
PhD C: Yeah , but then I 'm not sure {pause} that 's the right thing for us .
Postdoc F: But {disfmarker} In terms {nonvocalsound} of it being {nonvocalsound} Windows {nonvocalsound} versus {disfmarker}
Professor G: Yeah .
Grad A: No , no . Praat isn't {disfmarker} Praat 's multi - platform .
Postdoc F: But I 'm just wondering , is {disfmarker} ?
PhD C: No . No , Praat {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .
Postdoc F: Oh ! I see .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Oh , I see . So Praat may not be {disfmarker}
PhD C: That 's not Praat . It 's called " trans transedit " {pause} I think .
Postdoc F: It 's a different one .
PhD C: The {disfmarker} the , uh {disfmarker} the tool from {disfmarker} from Susanne .
Postdoc F: I see . Oh , I see . OK . OK . Alright .
Professor G: The other thing , uh , to keep in mind , uh {disfmarker} I mean , we 've been very concerned to get all this rolling so that we would actually have data ,
Postdoc F: Mmm , yeah .
Professor G: but , um , I think our outside sponsor is actually gonna kick in
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: and ultimately that path will be smoothed out . So I don't know if we have a long - term need to do lots and lots of transcribing . I think we had a very quick need to get something out and we 'd like to be able to do some later because just it 's inter it 's interesting . But as far a you know , uh , with {disfmarker} with any luck we 'll be able to wind down the larger project .
Grad A: Oh .
PhD B: But you s
Grad A: What our decision was is that {pause} we 'll go ahead with what we have with a not very fine time scale on the overlaps .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor G: Right . Yeah .
Grad A: And {disfmarker} and do what we can later {pause} to clean that up if we need to .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: Right .
Postdoc F: And {disfmarker} and I was just thinking that , um , {vocalsound} if it were possible to bring that in , like , {vocalsound} you know , this week , then {nonvocalsound} when they 're encoding the overlaps {nonvocalsound} it would be nice for them to be able to specify when {disfmarker} you know , the start points and end points of overlaps .
Professor G: Uh - huh .
Postdoc F: uh Th - they 're {nonvocalsound} making really quick progress .
Professor G: Yeah . That 's great .
Postdoc F: And , um , so my {disfmarker} my goal was {disfmarker} w m my charge was to get eleven hours by the end of the month . And it 'll be {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm clear that we 'll be able to do that .
Professor G: That 's great .
Grad A: And did you , uh , forward Morgan Brian 's {pause} thing ?
Professor G: Yeah .
Postdoc F: I sent {nonvocalsound} it to , um {disfmarker} who did I send that to ? I sent it to a list and I thought {nonvocalsound} I sent it to {nonvocalsound} the {nonvocalsound} {disfmarker} e to the local list .
PhD E: Meeting Recorder .
Grad A: Oh , you did ? OK . So you probably did get that .
Postdoc F: You saw that ? So Brian did tell {nonvocalsound} me that {nonvocalsound} in fact what you said , that , {nonvocalsound} uh {disfmarker} that {nonvocalsound} our {disfmarker} that they are {pause} making progress and that he 's going {disfmarker} that {nonvocalsound} they 're {nonvocalsound} going {disfmarker} he 's gonna check the f the output of the first transcription and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}
Professor G: I mean , basically it 's {disfmarker} it 's all the difference in the world . I mean , basically he 's {disfmarker} he 's on it now .
Grad A: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Oh , that 's {disfmarker} this is a new development .
Professor G: So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so this is {disfmarker} so i it 'll happen .
Postdoc F: OK . Super . Super . OK . Great .
Professor G: Yeah . I mean , basically it 's just saying that one of our {disfmarker} one of our best people is on it ,
Postdoc F: Yeah .
Professor G: you know , who just doesn't happen to be here anymore . Someone else pays him . So {disfmarker}
PhD B: But about the need for transcription ,
Postdoc F: Isn't that great ?
PhD B: I mean , don't we {disfmarker} didn't we previously {vocalsound} decide that the {pause} IBM {pause} transcripts would have to be {pause} checked anyway and possibly augmented ?
Professor G: So . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Postdoc F: Yes . That 's true .
PhD B: So , I think having a good tool is worth something no matter what .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: Yeah . S OK . That 's {disfmarker} that 's a good point .
Grad A: Yeah , and Dave Gelbart did volunteer ,
Postdoc F: Good .
Grad A: and since he 's not here , I 'll repeat it {disfmarker} to at least modify Transcriber , which , if we don't have something else that works , I think that 's a pretty good way of going .
PhD C: Mmm .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: And we discussed on some methods to do it . My approach originally , and I 've already hacked on it a little bit {disfmarker} it was too slow because I was trying to display all the waveforms . But he pointed out that you don't really have to . I think that 's a good point .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: That if you just display the mix waveform and then have a user interface for editing the different channels , that 's perfectly sufficient .
Professor G: Hmm .
Postdoc F: Yeah , exactly . And just keep those {nonvocalsound} things separate . And {disfmarker} and , um , Dan Ellis 's hack already allows them to be {nonvocalsound} able to display {vocalsound} different {nonvocalsound} waveforms to clarify overlaps and things ,
Grad A: No . They can only display one ,
Postdoc F: so that 's already {disfmarker}
Grad A: but they can listen to different ones .
Postdoc F: Oh , yes , but {disfmarker} Well , {vocalsound} uh , yes , but {nonvocalsound} what I mean is {pause} that , uh , from the transcriber 's {nonvocalsound} perspective , uh , those {nonvocalsound} two functions are separate . And Dan Ellis 's hack handles the , {vocalsound} um , choice {nonvocalsound} {disfmarker} the ability to choose different waveforms {vocalsound} from moment to moment .
Grad A: But only to listen to , not to look at .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Um {disfmarker}
Grad A: The waveform you 're looking at doesn't change .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc F: That 's true .
Grad A: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Yeah , but {nonvocalsound} that 's {disfmarker} that 's OK , cuz they 're {disfmarker} they 're , you know , they 're focused on the ear anyway .
Grad A: Right .
Postdoc F: And then {disfmarker} and then
Professor G: Hmm .
Postdoc F: the hack to {vocalsound} preserve the overlaps {nonvocalsound} better would be one which creates different output files for each channel ,
Grad A: Right .
Postdoc F: which then {nonvocalsound} would also serve Liz 's request {pause} of having , you know , a single channel , separable , uh , cleanly , easily separable ,
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: uh , transcript tied to a single channel , uh , audio .
Professor G: Mm - hmm . Have , uh , folks from NIST been in contact with you ?
Postdoc F: Not directly . I 'm trying to think if {disfmarker} if I could have gotten it over a list .
Professor G: OK .
Postdoc F: I don't {disfmarker} I don't think so .
Professor G: OK . Well , holidays may have interrupted things , cuz in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} They {vocalsound} seem to want to {pause} get absolutely clear on standards for {disfmarker} transcription standards and so forth with {disfmarker} with us .
Postdoc F: Oh ! This was from before December . Yeah .
Professor G: Right . Because they 're {disfmarker} they 're presumably going to start recording next month .
Postdoc F: OK . OK .
Grad A: Oh , we should definitely get with them then ,
Professor G: So .
Grad A: and agree upon a format . Though I don't remember email on that . So was I not in the loop on that ?
Professor G: Um . Yeah , I don't think I mailed anybody . I just think I told them to contact Jane {disfmarker} that , uh , if they had a {disfmarker}
Grad A: Oh , OK .
Postdoc F: That 's right .
Professor G: if , uh {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that , uh , as the point person on it .
Grad A: Yeah , I think that 's right .
Professor G: But {disfmarker}
Grad A: Just , uh {disfmarker}
Professor G: So , yeah . Maybe I 'll , uh , ping them a little bit about it to {vocalsound} get that straight .
Postdoc F: OK . I 'm keeping the conventions {pause} absolutely {pause} as simple {nonvocalsound} as possible .
Professor G: Yeah . So is it {disfmarker} cuz with any luck there 'll actually be a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} there 'll be collections at Columbia , collections at {disfmarker} at UW {disfmarker} I mean Dan {disfmarker} Dan is very interested in doing some other things ,
Grad A: Right .
Postdoc F: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad A: Well , I think it 's important both for the notation and the machine representation to be the same .
Professor G: and collections at NIST . So {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad A: So .
Postdoc F: N there was also this , {nonvocalsound} uh , email from Dan regarding the {pause} speech - non nonspeech segmentation thing .
Grad A: Yep .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc F: I don't know if , uh , uh , we wanna , uh {disfmarker} and Dan Gel - and Dave Gelbart is interested in pursuing the aspect {nonvocalsound} of using amplitude {nonvocalsound} as a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} as a basis for the separation .
Grad A: Cross - correlation .
Professor G: Oh , yeah . He was talking {disfmarker} he was talking {disfmarker} I mean , uh , we {disfmarker} he had {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: Cross
Professor G: Yeah , cross - correlation .
PhD C: Cross
Professor G: I had mentioned this a couple times before , the c the commercial devices that do , uh , {vocalsound} uh , voice , uh {disfmarker} you know , active miking ,
Postdoc F: Uh - huh .
Professor G: basically look at the amp at the energy at each of the mikes . And {disfmarker} and you basically compare the energy here to {vocalsound} some function of all of the mikes .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc F: OK .
Professor G: So , by doing that , you know , rather than setting any , uh , absolute threshold , you actually can do pretty good , uh , selection of who {disfmarker} who 's talking .
Postdoc F: OK .
Professor G: Uh {disfmarker} And those {disfmarker} those systems work very well , by the way , I mean , so people use them in {vocalsound} panel discussions and so forth with sound reinforcement differing in {disfmarker} in sort of ,
PhD D: Uh - huh .
Professor G: uh {disfmarker} and , uh , those {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} Boy , the guy I knew who built them , built them like twenty {disfmarker} twenty years ago ,
Grad A: Hmm .
Professor G: so they 're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the techniques work pretty well .
Postdoc F: Fantastic . Cuz there is one thing that we don't have right now and that is the automatic , um , channel identifier .
Professor G: So .
Postdoc F: That {disfmarker} that , you know , that would g help in terms of encoding of overlaps .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: The {disfmarker} the transcribers would have less , uh , disentangling to do {pause} if that were available .
Professor G: Yeah . So I think , you know , basically you can look at some {disfmarker} p you have to play around a little bit , uh , to figure out what the right statistic is ,
Postdoc F: But .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: but you compare each microphone to some statistic based on the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} on the overall {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: OK .
Professor G: Uh , and we also have these {disfmarker} we have the advantage of having {pause} distant mikes too . So that , you cou yo
Grad A: Yeah , although the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} using the close - talking I think would be much better . Wouldn't it ?
Postdoc F: Yeah .
Professor G: Um . I {disfmarker} I don't know .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor G: I just {disfmarker} it 'd be {disfmarker} If I was actually working on it , I 'd sit there and {disfmarker} and play around with it , and {disfmarker} and get a feeling for it . I mean , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the , uh {disfmarker} But , uh , you certainly wanna use the close - talking , as a {disfmarker} at least .
Grad A: Right .
Professor G: I don't know if the other would {disfmarker} would add some other helpful dimension or not .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . OK . What {disfmarker} what are the different , uh , classes to {disfmarker} to code , uh , the {disfmarker} the overlap , you will use ?
Postdoc F: Um , to code d
PhD D: What you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: so types of overlap ?
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Um , so {nonvocalsound} at a meeting that wasn't transcribed , we worked up a {disfmarker} a typology .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc F: And , um {disfmarker}
PhD D: Look like , uh , you t you explaining in the blackboard ? The {disfmarker} ? Yeah ? Yeah .
Postdoc F: Yes , exactly . That hasn't changed . So it {nonvocalsound} i the {disfmarker} it 's basically a two - tiered structure where the first one is whether {nonvocalsound} the person who 's interrupted continues or not . And then below that there 're {nonvocalsound} subcategories , uh , that have more to do with , {nonvocalsound} you know , is it , {vocalsound} uh , simply {nonvocalsound} backchannel
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: or is {nonvocalsound} it , um , someone completing someone else 's thought , or is it someone in introducing a new thought .
Grad A: Right . And I hope that if we do a forced alignment with the close - talking mike , that will be enough to recover at least some of the time the time information of when the overlap occurred .
PhD D: Huh . Yeah . Yeah .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm . Well , {vocalsound} one would {disfmarker}
PhD D: We hope .
Grad A: Yeah . Who knows ?
Postdoc F: That 'd be {disfmarker} that 'd be nice . I mean , {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 've {disfmarker}
PhD B: So who 's gonna do that ? Who 's gonna do forced alignment ?
Grad A: Well , u uh , IBM was going to . Um {disfmarker}
PhD B: Oh , OK .
PhD D: Oh .
Grad A: and I imagine they still plan to but {disfmarker} but , you know , I haven't spoken with them about that recently .
PhD B: OK .
PhD D: Uh - huh .
Professor G: Well , uh , my suggestion now is {disfmarker} is on all of these things to , uh , contact Brian .
Grad A: OK . I 'll do that .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc F: This is wonderful {nonvocalsound} to have a direct contact like that .
Professor G: Yeah .
Postdoc F: uh Well , th lemme ask {nonvocalsound} you this .
Professor G: Yeah .
Postdoc F: It occurs to me {disfmarker} {vocalsound} one of my transcribers t {nonvocalsound} told {nonvocalsound} me today that she 'll {nonvocalsound} be finished with one meeting , {vocalsound} um , by {disfmarker}
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: well , she said tomorrow but then she said {nonvocalsound} {disfmarker} you know , but {nonvocalsound} {disfmarker} the , you know {disfmarker} let 's {disfmarker} let 's just , uh , say
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: maybe the day after just to be s on the safe side . I could send Brian the , {nonvocalsound} um {disfmarker} the {nonvocalsound} transcript . I know these {nonvocalsound} are {disfmarker} er , uh , I could send him that {nonvocalsound} if {nonvocalsound} it would be possible , {nonvocalsound} or a good idea or not , to {nonvocalsound} try {nonvocalsound} to do a s forced alignment on what we 're {disfmarker} on the way we 're encoding overlaps now .
Professor G: Well , just talk to him about it .
Grad A: Yep .
Postdoc F: Good .
Professor G: I mean , you know , basically he 's {disfmarker} he just studies , he 's a colleague , a friend , and ,
Postdoc F: Yeah !
Professor G: uh , they {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and , you know , the {disfmarker} the organization always did wanna help us .
Postdoc F: Super . Super .
Professor G: It was just a question of getting , you know , the right people connected in , who had the time .
Grad A: Right .
Postdoc F: Yeah , yeah .
Professor G: So , um , eh {disfmarker}
Grad A: Is he on the mailing list ? The Meeting Recorder mailing li ?
Postdoc F: Oh !
Grad A: We should add him .
Postdoc F: Yeah . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't know for sure .
Professor G: Yeah .
PhD E: Did something happen , Morgan , that he got put on this , or was he already on it ,
Grad A: Add him .
PhD E: or {disfmarker} ?
Professor G: No , I , eh , eh , p It {disfmarker} it oc I {disfmarker} h it 's {disfmarker} Yeah , something happened . I don't know what .
PhD B: He asked for more work .
PhD E: Huh .
Professor G: But he 's on it now .
Postdoc F: That would be {nonvocalsound} like {disfmarker} that 'd be like him . He 's great .
Professor G: Right . So , uh , where are we ? Maybe , uh , uh , brief {disfmarker} Well , let 's {disfmarker} why don't we talk about microphone issues ?
Postdoc F: Yeah . That 'd be great .
Professor G: That was {disfmarker} that was a {disfmarker}
Grad A: Um , so one thing is that I did look on Sony 's for a replacement for the mikes {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for the head m head - worn ones cuz they 're so uncomfortable . But I think I need someone who knows more about mikes than I do , because I couldn't find a single other model that seemed like it would fit the connector , which seems really unlikely to me . Does anyone , like , know stores or {vocalsound} know about mikes who {disfmarker} who would know the right questions to ask ?
Professor G: Oh , I probably would . I mean , my knowledge is twenty years out of date but some of it 's still the same .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: So {disfmarker} Uh , so maybe we c we can take a look at that .
PhD E: You couldn't {disfmarker} you couldn't find the right connector to go into these things ?
Grad A: Yep . When I looked , i they listed one microphone and that 's it
PhD E: Huh !
Grad A: as having that type of connector . But my guess is that Sony maybe uses a different number for their connector than everyone else does . And {disfmarker} and so {disfmarker}
Professor G: Mm - hmm . Well , let 's look at it together
Grad A: it seems {disfmarker} it seems really unlikely to me that there 's only one .
Professor G: and {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: And there 's no adaptor for it ?
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Seems like there 'd be a {disfmarker} OK .
Grad A: As I said , who knows ?
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: Who {disfmarker} who are we buying these from ?
Grad A: Um ,
Professor G: That 'd be
Grad A: I have it downstairs . I don't remember off the top of my head .
Professor G: Yeah . OK . Yeah . We {disfmarker} we can try and look at that together .
Grad A: And then , uh {disfmarker} just in terms of how you wear them {disfmarker} I mean , I had thought about this before . I mean , when {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when you use a product like DragonDictate , they have a very extensive description about how to wear the microphone and so on .
Postdoc F: Oh .
Grad A: But I felt that in a real situation we were very seldom gonna get people to really do it and maybe it wasn't worth concentrating on . But {disfmarker}
Professor G: Well , I think that that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good back - off position . That 's what I was saying {vocalsound} earlier , th that , you know , we are gonna get some {vocalsound} recordings that are imperfect and , hey , that 's life . But I {disfmarker} I think that it {disfmarker} it doesn't hurt , uh , the naturalness of the situation to try to have people {pause} wear the microphones properly , if possible ,
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: because , {vocalsound} um , the natural situation is really what we have with the microphones on the table .
Grad A: Oh . That 's true .
Professor G: I mean , I think , {vocalsound} you know , in the target applications that we 're talking about , people aren't gonna be wearing head - mounted mikes anyway .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: So this is just for u these head - mounted mikes are just for use with research .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: And , uh , it 's gonna make {disfmarker} You know , if {disfmarker} if An - Andreas plays around with language modeling , he 's not gonna be m wanna be messed up by people breathing into the microphone .
Grad A: Right .
Professor G: So it 's {disfmarker} it 's , uh , uh {disfmarker}
Grad A: Well , I 'll dig through the documentation to DragonDictate and ste s see if they still have the little {pause} form .
Professor G: But it does happen .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: Right ? I mean , and any {disfmarker}
PhD B: It 's interesting , uh , I talked to some IBM guys , uh , last January , I think , I was there . And {disfmarker} so people who were working on the {disfmarker} on their ViaVoice dictation product .
Professor G: Yeah .
PhD B: And they said , uh , the breathing is really a {disfmarker} a terrible problem {pause} for them , to {disfmarker} to not recognize breathing as speech .
Postdoc F: Wow .
PhD B: So , anything to reduce breathing is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is a good thing .
Professor G: Yeah .
Grad A: Well , that 's the {disfmarker} It seemed to me when I was using Dragon that it was really microphone placement helped an {disfmarker} in , uh {disfmarker} an enormous amount .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: So you want it enough to the side so that when you exhale through your nose , it doesn't {disfmarker} the wind doesn't hit the mike .
PhD B: Right . Mm - hmm .
Grad A: And then , uh {disfmarker} Everyone 's adjusting their microphones , of course . And then just close enough so that you get good volume . So you know , wearing it right about here seems to be about the right way to do it .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Is {disfmarker} Uh - huh .
Professor G: I remember when I was {disfmarker} when I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I used , uh , um , {vocalsound} a prominent laboratory 's , uh , uh , speech recognizer about , {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} This was , boy , this was a while ago , this was about twelve {disfmarker} twelve years ago or something . And , um , they were {disfmarker} they were perturbed with me because I was breathing in instead of breathing out . And they had models for {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they had Markov models for br breathing out but they didn't have them for breathing in .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: Uh {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: That 's interesting . Well , what I wondered is whether it 's possible to have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to maybe use the display at the beginning
Grad A: Yeah .
Postdoc F: to be able to {disfmarker} to judge how {disfmarker} how correctly {disfmarker} I mean , have someone do some routine whatever , and {disfmarker} and then see if when they 're breathing it 's showing .
Grad A: I mean , when {disfmarker} when it 's on , you can see it .
Postdoc F: I don't know if the {disfmarker} if it 's {disfmarker}
Professor G: I {disfmarker}
Grad A: You can definitely see it .
Postdoc F: Can you see the breathing ?
Grad A: Absolutely .
Postdoc F: Cuz I {disfmarker}
Grad A: Absolutely .
Postdoc F: Oh .
Professor G: Yeah .
Grad A: And so , you know , I 've {disfmarker} I 've sat here and watched sometimes the breathing ,
Professor G: I
Grad A: and the bar going up and down , and I 'm thinking , I could say something , but
Professor G: I mean , I think {disfmarker}
Grad A: I don't want to make people self - conscious . Stop breathing !
Professor G: It {disfmarker} it 's going to be imperfect .
Postdoc F: Yeah . Uh - huh .
Professor G: You 're not gonna get it perfect . And you can do some , uh , you know , first - order thing about it , which is to have people move it , uh , uh , a away from being just directly in front of the middle
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Good .
Professor G: but not too far away .
Postdoc F: Yeah , i
Professor G: And then , you know , I think there 's not much {disfmarker} Because you can't al you know , interfere w you can't fine tune the meeting that much , I think .
Grad A: Right .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: It 's sort of {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: That 's true . It just seems like i if something l simple like that can be tweaked {vocalsound} and the quality goes , you know , uh , dramatically up , then it might be worth {pause} doing .
Grad A: Yep . And then also {disfmarker} the position of the mike also . If it 's more directly , you 'll get better volume . So {disfmarker} so , like , yours is pretty far down {pause} below your mouth . Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc F: But {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . My {disfmarker} my feedback from the transcribers is he is always close to crystal clear and {disfmarker} and just fan fantastic to {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Mmm , yeah .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: I don't know why that is .
Postdoc F: Well , I mean , you {disfmarker} Yeah , of course . You 're {disfmarker} you 're also {disfmarker} uh , your volume is {disfmarker} is greater . But {disfmarker} but still , I mean , they {disfmarker} they say {disfmarker}
Grad A: I 've been eating a lot .
Postdoc F: I it makes their {disfmarker} their job extremely easy .
Professor G: Uh .
Postdoc F: Yeah .
Professor G: And then there 's mass .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: Anyway .
Postdoc F: I could say something about {disfmarker} about the {disfmarker} Well , I don't know what you wanna do . Yeah .
Professor G: About what ?
Postdoc F: About the transcribers or anything or {disfmarker} ? I don't know .
Professor G: Well , the other {disfmarker}
PhD B: But , uh , just to {disfmarker} to , um {disfmarker}
Professor G: why don't we do that ?
PhD B: One more remark , uh , concerning the SRI recognizer . Um . It is useful to transcribe and then ultimately train models for things like breath , and also laughter is very , very frequent and important to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to model .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So ,
Grad A: So ,
PhD B: if you can in your transcripts mark {disfmarker}
Grad A: mark them ?
PhD B: mark very audible breaths and laughter especially ,
PhD C: Mmm .
PhD B: um {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: They are .
PhD B: OK .
Postdoc F: They 're putting {disfmarker} Eh , so in curly brackets they put " inhale " or " breath " .
Grad A: Oh , great .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: It {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} and then in curly brackets they say " laughter " . Now they 're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they 're not being {pause} awfully precise , uh , m So they 're two types of laughter that are not being distinguished .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: One is {vocalsound} when sometimes s someone will start laughing when they 're in the middle of a sentence .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: And {disfmarker} and then the other one is when they finish the sentence and then they laugh . So , um , I {disfmarker} I did s I did some double checking to look through {disfmarker} I mean , {vocalsound} you 'd need to have extra e extra complications , like time tags indicating the beginning and ending of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} of the laughing through the utterance .
PhD B: It 's not so {disfmarker} I don't think it 's , um {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: And that {disfmarker} and what they 're doing is in both cases just saying " curly brackets laughing " a after the unit .
PhD B: As {disfmarker} as long as there is an indication that there was laughter somewhere between {pause} two words {vocalsound} I think that 's sufficient ,
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Good . Oh !
Grad A: Against {disfmarker} they could do forced alignment .
Postdoc F: OK .
PhD B: because actually the recognition of laughter once you kn um {disfmarker} you know , is pretty good .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD B: So as long as you can stick a {disfmarker} you know , a t a tag in there that {disfmarker} that indicates that there was laughter ,
Grad A: Oh , I didn't know that .
PhD B: that would probably be , uh , sufficient to train models .
Postdoc F: OK .
Grad A: That would be a really interesting {pause} prosodic feature ,
Postdoc F: Then {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc F: And let me ask y and I gotta ask you one thing about that .
Grad A: when {disfmarker}
PhD B: Hmm .
Postdoc F: So , um , if they laugh between two words , you {disfmarker} you 'd get it in between the two words .
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Right .
Postdoc F: But if they laugh across three or four words you {disfmarker} you get it after those four words . Does that matter ?
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD B: Well , the thing that you {disfmarker} is hard to deal with is whe {vocalsound} when they speak while laughing . Um , and that 's , uh {disfmarker} I don't think that we can do very well with that .
Grad A: Right .
PhD B: So {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD B: But , um , that 's not as frequent as just laughing between speaking ,
Postdoc F: OK .
Grad A: So are {disfmarker} do you treat breath and laughter as phonetically , or as word models , or what ?
PhD B: so {disfmarker}
Professor G: Uh is it ?
PhD D: Huh . I {disfmarker} I think it 's frequent in {disfmarker} in the meeting .
Postdoc F: I think he 's right . Yeah .
PhD B: We tried both . Uh , currently , um , we use special words . There was a {disfmarker} there 's actually a word for {disfmarker} uh , it 's not just breathing but all kinds of mouth {disfmarker}
Grad A: Mm - hmm . Mouth stuff ?
PhD B: uh , mouth {disfmarker} mouth stuff . And then laughter is a {disfmarker} is a special word .
Grad A: How would we do that with the hybrid system ?
Professor G: Same thing .
Grad A: So train a phone {pause} in the neural net ?
PhD B: Same thing ? Yeah . Yeah . You ha Oh . And each of these words has a dedicated phone .
Professor G: No {disfmarker}
Grad A: Oh , it does ?
PhD B: So the {disfmarker} so the {disfmarker} the mouth noise , uh , word has just a single phone , um , that is for that .
Grad A: Right . So in the hybrid system we could train the net with a laughter phone and a breath sound phone .
Professor G: Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor G: I mean , it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's always the same thing .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: Right ? I mean , you could {disfmarker} you could say well , let {disfmarker} we now think that laughter should have three sub sub {vocalsound} sub - units in the {disfmarker} the three states , uh {disfmarker} different states .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor G: And then you would have three {disfmarker} I mean , you know , eh , eh , it 's u
Grad A: Do whatever you want .
PhD B: And the {disfmarker} the pronun the pronunciations {disfmarker} the pronunciations are l are somewhat non - standard .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: Yeah , yeah .
PhD D: No .
PhD B: They actually are {disfmarker} uh , it 's just a single , s uh , you know , a single phone in the pronunciation , but it has a self - loop on it , so it can {disfmarker}
Grad A: To {pause} go on forever ?
PhD B: r can go on forever .
Grad A: And how do you handle it in the language model ?
PhD B: It 's just a {disfmarker} it 's just a word .
Grad A: It 's just a word in the language model .
PhD B: We train it like any other word .
Grad A: Cool .
PhD B: Yeah . We also tried , {vocalsound} um , absorbing these {disfmarker} uh , both laughter and {disfmarker} and actually also noise , and , um {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD B: Yes . OK . Anyway . We also tried absorbing that into the pause model {disfmarker} I mean , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the model that {disfmarker} that matches the stuff between words .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And , um , it didn't work as well . So .
Grad A: Huh . OK .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Can you hand me your digit form ?
PhD B: Sorry .
Grad A: I just wanna mark that you did not read digits .
Professor G: OK . Say hi for me .
Postdoc F: Good . You {disfmarker} you did get me to thinking about {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm not really sure which is more frequent , whether f f laughing {disfmarker} I think it may be an individual thing . Some people are more prone to laughing when they 're speaking .
Professor G: Yeah .
Grad A: I was noticing that with Dan in the one that we , uh {disfmarker} we hand tran hand - segmented ,
Professor G: Yeah . I think {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: But I can't {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad A: that {disfmarker} th he has these little chuckles as he talks .
Postdoc F: Yeah . OK .
Professor G: I 'm sure it 's very individual . And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} one thing that c that we 're not doing , of course , is we 're not claiming to , uh , get {disfmarker} be getting a representation of mankind in these recordings . We have {vocalsound} this very , very tiny sample of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad A: Speech researchers ?
Professor G: Uh , yeah . And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah , r right .
PhD D: Speech research .
Professor G: So , uh , who knows . Uh {disfmarker} Yeah . Why don why don't we just {disfmarker} since we 're on this vein , why don't we just continue with , uh , what you were gonna say about the transcriptions
Postdoc F: OK .
Professor G: and {disfmarker} ?
Postdoc F: Um , um , the {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm really very for I 'm extremely fortunate with the people who , uh , applied and who are transcribing for us . They {vocalsound} are , um , um , uh really perceptive and very , um {disfmarker} and I 'm not just saying that cuz they might be hearing this .
Grad A: Cuz they 're gonna be transcribing it in a few days .
Postdoc F: No , they 're super . They 're {disfmarker} the they {disfmarker} very quick .
PhD E: OK . Turn the mikes off and let 's talk .
Postdoc F: Yeah , I know . I am {disfmarker} I 'm serious . They 're just super . So I , um , e you know , I {disfmarker} I brought them in and , um , trained them in pairs because I think people can raise questions {disfmarker}
Grad A: That 's a good idea .
Postdoc F: you know , i i the they think about different things and they think of different {disfmarker} and um , I trained them to , uh , f on about a minute or two of the one that was already transcribed . This also gives me a sense of {disfmarker} You know , I can {disfmarker} I can use that later , with reference to inter - coder reliability kind of issues . But the main thing was to get them used to the conventions and , {vocalsound} you know , the idea of the {disfmarker} th th the size of the unit versus how long it takes to play it back so these {disfmarker} th sort of calibration issues . And then , um , I just set them loose and they 're {disfmarker} they all have e a already background in using computers . They 're , um {disfmarker} they 're trained in linguistics .
Grad A: Good . Oh , no . Is that good or bad ?
Postdoc F: They got {disfmarker}
Professor G: Uh - huh .
Postdoc F: Well , they they 're very perce they 'll {disfmarker} So one of them said " well , you know , he really said " n " , not really " and " ,
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah .
Postdoc F: so what {vocalsound} {disfmarker} what should I do with that ? "
Grad A: Yeah .
Postdoc F: And I said , " well for our purposes ,
Professor G: Yeah .
Postdoc F: I do have a convention . If it 's an {disfmarker} a noncanonical p " That one , I think we {disfmarker} you know , with Eric 's work , I sort of figure we {disfmarker} we can just treat that as a variant . But I told them if {disfmarker} if there 's an obvious speech error , uh , like I said in one thing ,
Professor G: OK . Yes .
Postdoc F: and I gave my {disfmarker} my example , like I said , " microfon " {pause} in instead of " microphone " . Didn't bother {disfmarker} I knew it when I said it . I remember s thinking " oh , that 's not correctly pronounced " . But it {disfmarker} but I thought {vocalsound} it 's not worth fixing cuz often when you 're speaking everybody knows what {disfmarker} what you mean .
Grad A: You 'll self - repair . Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc F: But I have a convention that if it 's obviously a noncanonical pronunciation {disfmarker} a speech error with {disfmarker} you know , wi within the realm of resolution that you can tell in this native English {disfmarker} American English speaker , you know that I didn't mean to say " microfon . " Then you 'd put a little tick at the beginning of the word ,
Professor G: Yeah .
Postdoc F: and that just signals that , um , this is not standard , and then in curly brackets " pron {nonvocalsound} error " . And , um , and other than that , it 's w word level . But , you know , the fact that they noticed , you know , the " nnn " . " He said " nnn " , not " and " . What shall I do with that ? " I mean , they 're very perceptive . And {disfmarker} and s several of them are trained in IPA . C they really could do phonetic transcription if {disfmarker} if we wanted them to .
Professor G: Mm - hmm . Right . Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well , you know , it might be something we 'd wanna do with some , uh , s small subset {pause} of the whole thing .
Grad A: Hmm . Where were they when {pause} we needed them ?
Postdoc F: I think {disfmarker}
Professor G: We certainly wouldn't wanna do it with everything .
Postdoc F: And I 'm also thinking these people are a terrific pool . I mean , if , uh {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I told them that , um , we don't know if this will continue past the end of the month
Professor G: Uh - huh .
Postdoc F: and I also {disfmarker} m I think they know that the data p source is limited and I may not be able to keep them employed till the end of the month even , although I hope to .
Professor G: The other thing we could do , actually , uh , is , uh , use them for a more detailed analysis of the overlaps .
Postdoc F: And {disfmarker} Oh , that 'd be so super . They would be so {disfmarker} s so terrific .
Grad A: I mean , this was something that we were talking about .
Professor G: Right ?
Grad A: We could get a very detailed overlap if they were willing to transcribe each meeting four or five times . Right ? One for each participant . So they could by hand {disfmarker}
Professor G: Well , that 's one way to do it .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor G: But I 've been saying the other thing is just go through it for the overlaps .
Grad A: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm , that 's right .
Professor G: Right ?
Postdoc F: And with the right in interface {disfmarker}
Professor G: Given that y and {disfmarker} and do {disfmarker} so instead of doing phonetic , uh , uh , transcription for the whole thing ,
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: which {vocalsound} we know from the {disfmarker} Steve 's experience with the Switchboard transcription is , you know , very , very time - consuming . And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and you know , it took them I don't know how many months to do {disfmarker} to get four hours . And so {vocalsound} that hasn't been really our focus . Uh , we can consider it . But , I mean , the other thing is since we 've been spending so much time thinking about overlaps is {disfmarker} is maybe get a much more detailed analysis of the overlaps .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: But anyway , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm open to c our consideration .
Postdoc F: That 'd be great .
PhD D: Hmm .
Professor G: I {disfmarker} I don't wanna say that by fiat .
Postdoc F: Yeah .
Professor G: I 'm open to every consideration of {vocalsound} what are some other kinds of detailed analysis that would be most useful .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: And , uh , uh ,
PhD D: Hmm .
Professor G: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {vocalsound} this year we {disfmarker} we actually , uh , can do it .
Postdoc F: Oh , wonderful .
Professor G: It 's a {disfmarker} we have {disfmarker} we have {disfmarker} due to @ @ {comment} variations in funding we have {disfmarker} we seem to be doing , uh , very well on m money for this {disfmarker} this year , and {vocalsound} next year we may have {disfmarker} have much less .
Grad A: Is {disfmarker} you mean two thousand one ?
Professor G: So I don't wanna hire a {disfmarker}
Grad A: Calendar year or {disfmarker} ?
Professor G: Uh , I mean , calendar year two thousand one .
Grad A: OK .
Professor G: Yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} uh , it 's {disfmarker} we don't wanna hire a bunch of people , a long - term staff ,
Grad A: Full - time . Yeah .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor G: because {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the funding that we 've gotten is sort of a big chunk for this year . But {vocalsound} having {pause} temporary people doing some specific thing that we need is actually a perfect match to that kind of , uh , funding .
Postdoc F: Wonderful .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc F: And then school will start in {disfmarker} in the sixt on the sixteenth .
Professor G: So .
Postdoc F: Some of them will have to cut back their hours at that point .
Professor G: Yeah .
PhD E: Are they working full - time now , or {disfmarker} ?
Postdoc F: But {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} {vocalsound} Some of them are .
Grad A: Wow .
Postdoc F: Yeah . Well , why do I wouldn't say forty - hour weeks . No . But what I mean is {disfmarker} Oh , I shouldn't say it that way because {nonvocalsound} that does sound like forty - hour weeks . No . I th I {disfmarker} I would say they 're probably {nonvocalsound} {disfmarker} they don't have o they don't have other things that are taking away their time .
Grad A: I don't see how someone could do forty hours a week on transcription .
PhD E: Hmm .
Postdoc F: But {nonvocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} you can't .
Professor G: Yeah . Yeah .
Postdoc F: No . You 're right . It 's {disfmarker} i it would be too taxing . But , um , they 're putting {nonvocalsound} in a lot of {disfmarker}
Professor G: Yeah .
Postdoc F: And {disfmarker} and I checked them over .
Professor G: I {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't checked them all , but {pause} just spot - checking . They 're fantastic .
Grad A: I think it would be {disfmarker}
Professor G: I remember when we were transcribing BeRP , uh , uh , {vocalsound} uh , Ron Kay , uh , volunteered to {disfmarker} to do some of that . And , he was {disfmarker} the first {disfmarker} first stuff he did was transcribing Chuck . And he 's saying " You {disfmarker} you know , I always thought Chuck spoke really well . "
Postdoc F: Yeah . Yeah . Well , you know , and I also thought , y Liz has this , eh , you know , and I do also , this {disfmarker} this interest in the types of overlaps that are involved . These people would be {nonvocalsound} great choices for doing coding of that type if we wanted ,
Grad A: We 'd have to mark them .
Postdoc F: or whatever . So , um .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: I think it would also be interesting to have , uh , a couple of the meetings have more than one transcriber do ,
Professor G: Yeah .
Grad A: cuz I 'm curious about inter - annotator agreement .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc F: OK . Yeah . Th - that 'd be {disfmarker} I think that 's a {disfmarker} a good idea .
Professor G: Yeah .
Postdoc F: You know , there 's also , the e In my mind , I think A An - Andreas was {pause} leading to this topic , the idea that , um , {vocalsound} we haven't yet seen the {disfmarker} the type of transcript that we get from IBM , and it may just be , you know , pristine . But on the other hand , given the lesser interface {disfmarker} Cuz this is , you know {disfmarker} we 've got a good interface , we 've got great headphones , m um {disfmarker}
Professor G: It could be that they will uh {disfmarker} theirs will end up being a kind of fir first pass or something .
Postdoc F: Something like that .
Professor G: Maybe an elaborate one , cuz again they probably are gonna do these alignments , which will also clear things up .
Postdoc F: That 's {disfmarker} that 's true . Al - although you have to s Don't you have to start with a close enough approximation {nonvocalsound} of the {disfmarker} of the verbal part {nonvocalsound} to be able to {disfmarker} ?
Professor G: Well , tha that 's {disfmarker} that 's debatable .
Postdoc F: OK .
Professor G: Right ? I mean , so the {disfmarker} so the argument is that if your statistical system is good {vocalsound} it will in fact , uh , clean things up .
Postdoc F: OK .
Professor G: Right ? So it it 's got its own objective criterion .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: And , uh , so in principle you could start up with something that was kind of rough {disfmarker} I mean , to give an example of , um , something we used to do , uh , at one point , uh , back {disfmarker} back when Chuck was here in early times , is we would take , um , {vocalsound} da take a word and , uh , have a canonical pronunciation and , uh , if there was five phones in a word , {vocalsound} you 'd break up the word , {vocalsound} uh , into five equal - length pieces which is completely gross .
Grad A: Wrong .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: Right ? I mean , th the timing is off {pause} all over the place in just about any word .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm . OK .
Professor G: But it 's O K . You start off with that and the statistical system then aligns things , and eventually you get something that doesn't really look too bad .
Postdoc F: Oh , excellent . OK .
Professor G: So {disfmarker} so I think using a {disfmarker} a good {pause} aligner , um , actually can {disfmarker} can help a lot . Um . {vocalsound} But , uh , you know , they both help each other . If you have a {disfmarker} if you have a better starting point , then it helps the aligner . If you have a good alignment , it helps the , uh , th the human in {disfmarker} in taking less time to correct things .
Postdoc F: OK .
Professor G: So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: Excellent . I guess there 's another aspect , too , and I don't know {disfmarker} uh , this {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} very possibly a different , uh , topic . But , {nonvocalsound} uh , just let me say {pause} with reference to this idea of , um , {vocalsound} higher - order organization within meetings . So like in a {disfmarker} you know , the topics that are covered during a meeting with reference to the other , uh , uses of the data ,
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: so being able to {pause} find where so - and - so talked about such - and - such , then , um , um {disfmarker} e I mean , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I did sort of a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a rough {pause} pass {nonvocalsound} on encoding , like , episode - like level things on the , uh , transcribed meeting {disfmarker}
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: already transcribed meeting . And I don't know if , um {disfmarker}
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: where {nonvocalsound} that {disfmarker} i if that 's something that we wanna do with each meeting , sort of like a , um {disfmarker} it 's like a manifest , when you get a box full of stuff , or {disfmarker} or if that 's , um {disfmarker}
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: I mean , i I {disfmarker} I don't know what uh , level of detail would be most useful . I don't know i if that 's something that {pause} I should do when I look over it , or if we want someone else to do , or whatever .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: But this issue of the contents of the meeting in an outline form . OK .
Professor G: Yeah . Meaning really isn't my thing . Um {disfmarker}
Grad A: I think it just {disfmarker} whoever is interested can do that . I mean , so if someone wants to use that data {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: OK .
Professor G: We 're running a little short here .
Postdoc F: That 's fine .
Professor G: We , uh , uh , cou trying to {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: I 'm finished .
Professor G: eh , was {disfmarker} p Well , you know , the thing I 'm concerned about is we wanted to do these digits
Postdoc F: Oh , yeah .
Professor G: and {disfmarker} and I haven't heard , uh , from Jose yet .
Postdoc F: Oh , yes .
PhD D: OK . What do you want ?
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: So {disfmarker}
Grad A: We could skip the digits .
Professor G: Uh {disfmarker}
Grad A: We don't have to read digits each time .
Professor G: Uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it {disfmarker} you know , another {disfmarker} another bunch of digits . More data is good .
Grad A: OK .
PhD D: Yeah . Sure .
Professor G: So {disfmarker} so I 'd like to do that . But I think , do you , maybe , eh {disfmarker} ? Did you prepare some whole thing you wanted us just to see ?
PhD D: Yeah . It 's {disfmarker} it 's prepared .
Professor G: Or what was that ? Yeah .
Postdoc F: Oh , k Sorry .
Professor G: Uh , how long a {disfmarker} ?
PhD D: I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's fast , because , uh , I have the results , eh , of the study of different energy without the law length . Eh , um , eh , in the {disfmarker} in the measurement , uh , the average , uh , dividing by the {disfmarker} by the , um , variance . Um , I {disfmarker} th i
Professor G: Yeah .
PhD D: the other , uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the last w uh , meeting {disfmarker} eh , I don't know if you remain we have problem to {disfmarker} with the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} with {disfmarker} with the parameter {disfmarker} with the representations of parameter , because the {disfmarker} the valleys and the peaks in the signal , eh , look like , eh , it doesn't follow to the {disfmarker} to the energy in the signal .
Professor G: Yes . Right .
PhD D: And it was a problem , uh , with the scale .
Grad A: With what ?
PhD D: Eh , the scale .
Postdoc F: Scale .
Grad A: Scale .
PhD D: Eh , and I {disfmarker} I change the scale and we can see the {disfmarker} the variance .
Professor G: OK . But the bottom line is it 's still not , uh , separating out very well .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor G: Right ?
PhD D: The distribution {disfmarker} the distribution is {disfmarker} is similar .
Professor G: OK . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's enough then . OK .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: No , I mean , that there 's no point in going through all of that if that 's the bottom line , really .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: So , I {disfmarker} I think we have to start {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , there there 's two suggestions , really , which is , uh {disfmarker} what we said before is that ,
PhD D: Mmm , yeah .
Professor G: um , it looks like , at least that you haven't found an obvious way to normalize so that the energy is anything like a reliable , uh , indicator of the overlap .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor G: Um , I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm still {pause} a little f think that 's a little funny . These things l @ @ seems like there should be ,
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but you don't want to keep , uh {disfmarker} keep knocking at it if it 's {disfmarker} if you 're not getting any {disfmarker} any result with that . But , I mean , the other things that we talked about is , uh , {vocalsound} pitch - related things and harmonicity - related things ,
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: so {disfmarker} which we thought also should be some kind of a reasonable indicator . Um {disfmarker} But , uh , a completely different tack on it wou is the one that was suggested , uh , by your colleagues in Spain ,
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: which is to say , don't worry so much about the , uh , features .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: That is to say , use , you know , as {disfmarker} as you 're doing with the speech , uh , nonspeech , use some very general features .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: And , uh , then , uh , look at it more from the aspect of modeling .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: You know , have a {disfmarker} have a couple Markov models and {disfmarker} and , uh , try to indi try to determine , you know , w when is th when are you in an overlap , when are you not in an overlap .
PhD D: Hmm .
Professor G: And let the , uh , uh , statistical system {pause} determine what 's the right way to look at the data .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: I {disfmarker} I , um , I think it would be interesting to find individual features and put them together . I think that you 'd end up with a better system overall .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: But given the limitation in time {vocalsound} and given the fact that Javier 's system already exists {pause} doing this sort of thing ,
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: uh , but , uh , its main limitation is that , again , it 's only looking at silences which would {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor G: maybe that 's a better place to go .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: So .
PhD D: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that , eh , the possibility , eh , can be that , eh , Thilo , eh , working , eh , with a new class , not only , eh , nonspeech and speech , but , eh , in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the speech class ,
Professor G: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD D: dividing , eh , speech , eh , of {disfmarker} from a speaker and overlapping , to try {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to do , eh , eh , a fast {disfmarker} a fast , eh , {vocalsound} experiment to {disfmarker} to prove that , nnn , this fea eh , general feature , {vocalsound} eh , can solve the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the problem ,
Professor G: Yeah .
PhD D: and wh what {disfmarker} nnn , how far is {disfmarker}
Professor G: Maybe . Yeah .
PhD D: And , I {disfmarker} I have prepared the {disfmarker} the pitch tracker now .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: And I hope the {disfmarker} the next week I will have , eh , some results and we {disfmarker} we will show {disfmarker} we will see , eh , the {disfmarker} the parameter {disfmarker} the pitch , {vocalsound} eh , tracking in {disfmarker} with the program .
Professor G: I see .
PhD D: And , nnn , nnn {disfmarker}
Professor G: Ha - h have you ever looked at the , uh , uh {disfmarker} Javier 's , uh , speech segmenter ?
PhD C: No . No .
PhD D: No .
Professor G: Oh . Maybe m you could , you kn uh show Thilo that .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah . Sure .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: Cuz again the idea is there {disfmarker} the limitation there again was that he was {disfmarker} he was only using it to look at silence as a {disfmarker} as a {disfmarker} as a {disfmarker} as a p putative split point between speakers .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: But if you included , uh , broadened classes then {pause} in principle maybe you can {pause} cover the overlap cases .
PhD C: OK .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah , but I 'm not too sure if {disfmarker} if we can {pause} really represent {vocalsound} overlap with {disfmarker} with the s {pause} detector I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I used up to now ,
PhD D: Mmm , yeah .
Professor G: Uh {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: I think with {disfmarker}
PhD C: the {disfmarker} to speech - nonspeech as {disfmarker}
Grad A: That 's right . But I think Javier 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: it 's only speech or it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's nonspeech .
PhD D: Ah . Yeah .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: I think Javier 's might be able to .
PhD C: So .
Professor G: N n
Grad A: It doesn't have the same Gaus - uh , H M M modeling ,
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad A: which is I think a drawback .
PhD C: OK .
Grad A: But , uh {disfmarker}
Professor G: Well , it 's {disfmarker} sort of has a simple one .
PhD D: Mmm , yeah .
Grad A: Does it ?
Professor G: Right ? It 's {disfmarker} it 's just {disfmarker} it 's just a {disfmarker} isn't it just a Gaussian
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: for each {disfmarker} ?
Grad A: Yeah . And then {pause} he ch you choose optimal splitting .
PhD D: Hmm .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: Yeah . Oh , it doesn't have {disfmarker} it doesn't have any temporal , uh {disfmarker} ?
Grad A: Maybe I 'm misremembering , but I did not think it had a Markov {disfmarker}
Professor G: I thought it {disfmarker} Yeah . I gues I guess I don't remember either . Uh . It 's been a while .
PhD C: Yeah . Uh , I could have a look at it .
PhD D: Javier {disfmarker}
Professor G: Uh .
PhD C: So .
PhD D: You mean Ja - eh , eh , Javier program ?
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: No , Javier di doesn't worked with , uh , a Markov {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah , I didn't think so .
PhD D: He on only train {disfmarker}
Professor G: Oh , OK . So he 's just {disfmarker} he just computes a Gaussian over potential {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yep .
PhD D: Yeah . It was only Gaussian .
Professor G: Oh , I see . I see .
Grad A: And so I {disfmarker} I think it would work fine for detecting overlap .
PhD D: This is the idea .
Professor G: And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}
Grad A: It 's just , uh , that i it {disfmarker} he has the two - pass issue that {disfmarker} What he does is , as a first pass he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} p he does , um , a guess at where the divisions might be and he overestimates . And that 's just a data reduction step , so that you 're not trying at every time interval .
PhD C: OK .
Grad A: And so those are the putative {pause} places where he tries .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah . OK .
Grad A: And right now he 's doing that with silence and that doesn't work with the Meeting Recorder . So if we used another method to get the first pass , I think it would probably work .
PhD C: Yeah . Yeah . Sure . Yeah . Yeah , OK .
Grad A: It 's a good method . As long as the len as long the segments are long enough .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad A: That 's the other problem .
PhD C: So {disfmarker}
Professor G: O - k OK . So let me go back to what you had , though .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor G: Um .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: The other thing one could do is {disfmarker} Couldn't {disfmarker} I mean , it 's {disfmarker} So you have two categories
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor G: and you have Markov models for each . Couldn't you have a third category ? So you have , uh {disfmarker} you have , {vocalsound} uh , nonspeech , single - person speech , and multiple - person speech ?
Postdoc F: He has this on his board actually . Don't you have , like those {disfmarker} those several different {vocalsound} categories on the board ?
Professor G: Right ? And then you have a Markov model for each ?
PhD C: Um {disfmarker} I 'm not sure . I {disfmarker} I thought about , uh , adding , uh , uh , another class too . But it 's not too easy , I think , the {disfmarker} the transition between the different class , to model them in {disfmarker} in the system I have now . But it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it could be possible , I think ,
Professor G: I see . I see .
PhD C: in principle .
Professor G: Yeah , I mean , I {disfmarker} This is all pretty gross .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: I mean , the {disfmarker} th the reason why , uh , I was suggesting originally that we look at features is because I thought , well , we 're doing something we haven't done before ,
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor G: we should at least look at the space and understand {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: It seems like if two people {disfmarker} two or more people talk at once , it should get louder ,
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor G: uh , and , uh , uh , there should be some discontinuity in pitch contours ,
PhD C: I had the impression .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor G: and , uh , there should overall be a , um , smaller proportion of the total energy that is explained by any particular harmonic {pause} sequence in the spectrum .
Grad A: Right .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor G: So those are all things that should be there .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: So far , um , uh , Jose has {disfmarker} has been {disfmarker} By the way , I was told I should be calling you Pepe , but {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: by your friends , but Anyway ,
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: um , uh , the {disfmarker} has {disfmarker} has , uh , been exploring , uh , e largely the energy issue and , um , as with a lot of things , it is not {disfmarker} uh , like this , it 's not as simple as it sounds .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor G: And then there 's , you know {disfmarker} Is it energy ? Is it log energy ? Is it LPC residual energy ? Is it {disfmarker} is it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} is it , uh , delta of those things ? Uh , what is it no Obviously , just a simple number {disfmarker} {vocalsound} absolute number isn't gonna work . So {vocalsound} it should be with {disfmarker} compared to what ? Should there be a long window for the {vocalsound} normalizing factor and a short window for what you 're looking at ?
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor G: Or , you know , how b short should they be ? So ,
PhD D: Hmm .
Professor G: th he 's been playing around with a lot of these different things and {disfmarker} and so far at least has not come up with {vocalsound} any combination that really gave you an indicator .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: So I {disfmarker} I still have a hunch that there 's {disfmarker} it 's in there some place , but it may be {disfmarker} given that you have a limited time here , it {disfmarker} it just may not be the best thing to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to {disfmarker} to focus on for the remaining of it .
PhD D: Yeah . To overrule , yeah .
Professor G: So pitch - related and harmonic - related , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {pause} somewhat more hopeful for it .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor G: But it seems like if we just wanna get something to work ,
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor G: that , uh , their suggestion of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} Th - they were suggesting going to Markov models , uh , but in addition there 's an expansion of what Javier did . And one of those things , looking at the statistical component ,
PhD D: One .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor G: even if the features that you give it are maybe not ideal for it , it 's just sort of this general filter bank
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor G: or {disfmarker} {vocalsound} or cepstrum or something , um {disfmarker} Eee {vocalsound} it 's in there somewhere probably .
PhD D: But , eh , what did you think about the possibility of using the Javier software ? Eh , I mean , the , uh {disfmarker} the , uh {disfmarker} the BIC criterion , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} t to train the {disfmarker} the Gaussian , eh , using the {disfmarker} the mark , eh , by hand , eh , eh , to distinguish be mmm , to train overlapping zone and speech zone . I mean , eh , {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that an interesting , eh , experiment , eh , could be , th eh , to prove that , mmm , if s we suppose that , eh , the {disfmarker} the first step {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean , the {disfmarker} the classifier what were the classifier from Javier or classifier from Thilo ? W What happen with the second step ? I {disfmarker} I mean , what {disfmarker} what happen with the , eh {disfmarker} the , uh , clu the , uh {disfmarker} the clu the clustering process ?
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Using the {disfmarker} the Gaussian .
Grad A: You mean Javier 's ?
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad A: What do you mean ?
PhD D: I {disfmarker} I mean , that is {disfmarker} is enough {disfmarker} is enough , eh , to work well , eh , to , eh , separate or to distinguish , eh , between overlapping zone and , eh , speaker zone ? Because th {vocalsound} if {disfmarker} if we {disfmarker} if we , eh , nnn , develop an classifier {disfmarker} and the second step doesn't work {pause} well , eh , we have {pause} another problem .
Grad A: I {disfmarker} Yeah . I had tried doing it by hand at one point with a very short sample ,
PhD D: N
Grad A: and it worked pretty well , but I haven't worked with it a lot . So what I d I d I took a hand - segmented sample
PhD D: Nnn , yeah .
Grad A: and I added ten times the amount of numbers at random ,
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad A: and it did pick out pretty good boundaries .
PhD D: Oh . Yeah . But is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}
Grad A: But this was just very anecdotal sort of thing .
PhD D: But it 's possible with my segmentation by hand {pause} that we have information about the {disfmarker} the overlapping ,
Grad A: Right . So if we {disfmarker} if we fed the hand - segmentation to Javier 's and it doesn't work , then we know something 's wrong .
PhD D: uh {disfmarker} Yeah . The {disfmarker} N n Yeah . No . The demonstration by hand . Segmentation by hand I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think is the fast experiment .
Grad A: Yeah . I think that 's probably worthwhile doing .
PhD D: Uh , we can prove that the {disfmarker}
Professor G: Uh - huh .
Grad A: Whether it 'll work or not .
PhD D: this kind o emph emphasises parameter and Gaussian {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor G: Yeah .
Grad A: Yep . Y do you know where his software is ? Have you used it at all ?
PhD D: I yeah have . I have .
Grad A: OK .
PhD D:
Grad A: So . I {disfmarker} I have as well , so if you need {disfmarker} need help let me know .
PhD D: OK .
Professor G: Let 's read some digits .
Grad A: OK . uuh
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: And we are {disfmarker} | |
doc_105 | Marketing: {vocalsound} That went well , thank you .
Project Manager: That's great .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} 'Kay .
Marketing: Perfect .
Project Manager: Alright , let me just PowerPoint this up . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Right so um this meeting will be about the conceptual design , don't ask me s precisely what conceptual design is , it's just something important that we need to do . Um , think of it {disfmarker} 's kind of uh turning the abstract into slightly more concrete . In this meeting ideally we'll come to some final decisions on what we're gonna do for the prototype . Um . Right so um , apologies for the last meeting , it was brought to my attention that I did not make the roles clear enough , um , so I will attempt to do so more accurately in this particular meeting . Um , fair enough , thanks for the input , 's always good . Um . So , basically all we're gonna do is have some presentations again much like last time , um , and gonna go through you , uh whoever wants to go first is f fine by me um and we'll collate what we know about um what we discussed in the last meeting , possible directions . {vocalsound} And then we'll make some more decisions on um basic uh firm up our idea on how we want this remote control to look and work . So , perfect . So , without th further ado , whoever wants to go first is free to .
Industrial Designer: I'll go first .
Project Manager: Alright Nathan ,
Marketing: Go ahead .
Project Manager: take it away . It is Nathan right ? I'm not calling you the wrong name over and over again ?
Industrial Designer: No Nathan's fine .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Good .
Industrial Designer: It's either Nathan or participant two .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mister participant two that is . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Nice .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Um ,
Project Manager: Nice .
Industrial Designer: basically what I'm gonna have to talk to you about today is um component design and it's been brought to my attention that we may be somewhat limited as to what we can do because of what our manufacturer offers ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: so {disfmarker} Basically what I'm gonna be doing is talking to you about that . Um , components of a remote control , okay . We've already kind of gone over this but we're gonna have to get into more detail and probably have to reach some conclusions some time soon . Energy source , um , our manufacturer offers a variety of energy sources , your standard battery , solar cells . Our manufacturer didn't say anything about lithium so we might have to look {disfmarker} if we do go that route , we might have to look elsewhere . Um , and also there's a kinetic energy possibility . Basically , it's like a um {disfmarker} the idea of moving the remote would create enough energy to keep it running . So that's one possibility but I don't know whether that would be powerful enough to illuminate a touch screen .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: So we'll have to look into that .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Um , the case , we have a few options , plastic , rubber or wood . Um and then as far as the way it's shaped , we can do standard boring flat , which we probably don't wanna do , curved or very sexy double curved .
Project Manager: What kind of th thickness are we looking at ?
Industrial Designer: Um , I imagine that we could specify . Um , I don't see any reason to go outside of the convention of three or four millimetres . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , brilliant .
Industrial Designer: Um , the buttons , there are multiple scroll buttons available from our manufacturer , but to use those we'd have to use more chips , um and that would cost us more . And if we do go with the rubber doubled curved case um we'll have to use rubber push buttons because the other buttons aren't compatible with that .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um and just a little note there ,
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: touch screen equals many chips which equals many Euro .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Right . Nice .
Industrial Designer: Um , one thing that I noticed was that most remotes operate on a infrare on the infrared part of the spectrum . So you notice when you push a button on a remote you can't see anything coming out of it but in fact there is light coming out of the remote and you know the television can detect that . And if you were to record {disfmarker} if you were to make a video recording you could actually see the light . Uh one thing that I thought might be interesting was to use part {disfmarker} use visible light coming out of the remote , just kind of as a fun gimmick .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: So you could actually see something coming out of the remote when you pushed it .
Marketing: Interesting .
Industrial Designer: Course it'd have to be a part of the spectrum that wouldn't damage the human eye or anything like that .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} M Maybe {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm . Good call .
Project Manager: is there an option that we can have that off or on so a person can select like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Choose it .
Industrial Designer: I am sure that we could do that . Um , of course {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah I like the idea , it's a good idea .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , just as a fun gimmick .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Just to set us apart a little bit . Um , and then on to the circuit board that we're gonna use , also known as the chip . Uh , we really don't have any way around the T_A_ one one eight three five .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um findings , okay , we're very limited by what our current manufacturers can offer , um and my question to all of you is , should we look to other manufacturies or should we just make do with what we have available ?
User Interface: Interesting question .
Industrial Designer: 'S a bit of a challenge question .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Well I'd say shop around but with our time constraints , is that really a feasible option ?
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Right , that's my concern too . Um , if we do go the lithium battery route then we'll have to go outside our current manufacturer . My personal preference is {disfmarker} I'll just throw my cards on the table , uh I think we should probably go the solar battery route , just to kinda keep with the environmentally friendly theme that we have going on . Uh , I like the idea of the visible light signalling , that's something to set us apart and uh I was thinking about {disfmarker} I was thinking of ways that we could produce the remote in a variety of different case materials to suit different tastes . So we're not so confined by one style and say some {disfmarker} you know , say our {disfmarker} the one {disfmarker}
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: if we just go with one and it doesn't go over well then we're in a bad situation .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Can we do marketing piloting too ? Try to see what kind {disfmarker} before we launch {disfmarker} can we see how they're received ?
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} It's an option , uh but actually there's {disfmarker} I've got some research already on like what we're looking at and trends in casing right now
Project Manager: Okay . Okay .
Marketing: which actually might even come into play beforehand ,
Project Manager: Okay , perfect .
Marketing: it may help us decide for now . Temporarily anyway .
Project Manager: Great , thank you very much Nathan .
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah , you're welcome .
Project Manager: That's perfect , so I guess that makes sense for you to take it from here .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I guess so , 'cause I found some interesting things . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Did you ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: You waiting for me ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Fascinating , compelling even .
Marketing: I know , what a teaser ain't it . Um . {vocalsound} Right . So
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: current market trends . Screen . Um , basically I was looking at what's going on in the remote control market right now and what's going on in other design fields , to see sort of what's what's trendy , what's new , what's happening . Um , remote control right now {disfmarker} basically everybody says they want newer , fancier , more exciting {disfmarker} they're sick of this boring , normal , functional , um {disfmarker} that we need innovative design options and there needs to be an easy user interface . Um the challenge is that current trends right now , across the board in fashion , in furniture , in technology , is a very organic fruit and vegetable kind of thing .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Now I'm not saying we should have , you know , tomato shaped remote controls or anything , but I think it is possible maybe to use um natural colours , like if wood is an option , that whole organic , sleek , clean ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: v line thing may be something we can look into . Different skin options , or if we can't afford this touch plate thing , or touch face screen interface um , maybe having the b images be specific , like you could choose your menu bullets to be
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Tomatoes . {vocalsound}
Marketing: a different shape
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: or {vocalsound} okay , not the example I would choose , but you know what I mean to t sort of {disfmarker} and th apparently the feel of the next couple of years is spongy ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I like it , I like it . {vocalsound}
Marketing: uh not something I I've come up with a {gap} though if we can get around to getting piloting , I thought maybe a casing option like uh not like a skin , but like a holder almost if you could do like um , leather options or wood options or something {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm . I should have mentioned this um . As far as the rubber that we can use {disfmarker} we can use a rubber as part of the case ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: it has a consistency of those stress balls .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Mm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Slick , slick .
User Interface: Fabulous .
Marketing: Might be an interesting way to go . Um , yeah so something to sit on for now . So overall I think we should stick with what we're finding , everyone's looking for easy to use , technologically innovative and this fancy new {disfmarker} I think perhaps the double curve thing and maybe this rubber option is our best way to go for right now .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um .
Project Manager: Interface , oh the interface graphics for the um {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Um . Well I d but then if the touch screen thing isn't gonna work out for us that's really a non-issue .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I like the idea of of rubber too because it's {disfmarker} tends to be associated with being durable , something that you can drop and it doesn't matter .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: 'Cause so many {disfmarker}
Marketing: True .
Industrial Designer: you go to so many houses these days and you see broken remote controls .
Marketing: Very true . Very true .
Project Manager: Yeah , it's like , yep {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Taped with duck tape and what have you ,
Marketing: Very much so {vocalsound} . Um
Industrial Designer: you wouldn't have that problem if you used rubber .
Project Manager: it's ubiquitous isn't it ?
User Interface: We can have a duck tape casing .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: We could .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think that goes against the whole fancy something , a new line ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It could go with the granola crowd .
Marketing: but worth a shot .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ah , it could be , it could be ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Great ,
Marketing: um . Yeah that's what I know .
Project Manager: thanks for that Sarah .
Marketing: No problem .
Project Manager: Ron ?
User Interface: Phew . Computer's adjusting . One moment please . So interme interface concept by your faithful user interface designer .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So yur user interface , guys , is basically aspects of a computer system that we can see or hear , or otherwise uh perceive . Uh , commands and mechanisms , that basically user uses to control the operator operating system . Here's a d series of different remote controls
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: that are out on the market today . I think we're definitely trying to get away from this kind of a look .
Project Manager: Yeah
User Interface: Um , so the following are a bunch of different uh interface uh concepts . Uh voice recognition , we we um actually have some new uh information from our research design team but uh I'll get to that in a moment . Um , so current voice recognition starts up to about eighty speech samples , um and basically you record your own verbal labels c and connect them to the remote control . Now our design team , research team , has been able to uh set up a system in which uh you can teach the remote control voice c recognition system to respond to um {disfmarker} with standard responses . Like you could say good morning uh remote control and it'll say in a sexy female voice , Good morning Joe . Um .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} In fact we already have this for a coffee maker line
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Lot of single people on the um on the re on the remote control research team
User Interface: {vocalsound} On the remote control
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: at the {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: right .
Marketing: Yeah . Very true , very true .
User Interface: Um , another concept is what uh Apple has come up with , the spinning wheel with uh L_C_ display like on the uh iPod
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: which I am sure most of you know about .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Um and then we have the scroll button with integrated push-button , kind of like a modern {gap} a bit bulky , a bit crazy ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: I don't think that's we're necessarily going for .
Industrial Designer: No .
User Interface: And uh some special components , uh ideas like uh blocking , having the ability to block channels from your {disfmarker} for your children um and uh dedicated buttons for for commonly used uh channels and even uh ideas like secured or hidden programming but uh I {disfmarker} again if we go with touch screen I don't think that's a big issue . Um and uh this is kind of the uh the big daddy of remote controls here .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh the jumbo universal remote control is almost impossible to misplace or lose .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah , I can see . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um , again probably not what we're going for
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so I {disfmarker} I mean my ideas here and kind of where I think we're heading is something slightly larger than a regular iPod uh with a hard cla c uh plastic casing
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: although I think some of the suggestions we've come up with are definitely uh very good ideas . Uh changeable casings uh {disfmarker} our design team was possibly talking about including one extra face plate with the package to kind of set the idea that you can change it and you can try changing it
Marketing: Mm , right .
User Interface: and kind of get used to thinking about maybe buying another one which can add value to our uh bottom line . Uh touch screen interface , um possibly having go-to buttons being uh stuck into the system so those don't move away from the screen , uh , the important ones like power , volume and jump between channels . Um , and of course our voice command system which I've talked a little bit about already
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: and uh the use of recognisable colours and shapes to aid recognition of the features um that are around so red for power , um arrows for different volume ups and downs and channels ups and downs and what not .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: And uh perhaps even adding in some stupid little jokes with the voice recognition idea like perh mm for instance my toastie maker that I got from my bank
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: has jokes when it's ready .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Nice .
Project Manager: Great .
User Interface: And uh that is about it .
Project Manager: Great , wonderful Ron , cool . Lot of good ideas , good facts to have .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: That's what they need , it's like a little dongle it just sticks up this further so you don't have to stand up every time , just connect it , my kingdom .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Right so , good to know all that stuff , thanks guys , um . {vocalsound} Now we kind of have to come to some decisions , um , I figure we can just go down the line and all three of us can have a chat about it . Um . Based on what Nathan presented as far as the um {vocalsound} various costs and benefits um I think , I dunno , what do you guys think about the touch screen at this point ?
Marketing: I think it's our most marketable feature just because it's so new and it's something that is showing up in other places .
Project Manager: 'Kay . 'Kay .
Marketing: But can we really afford it 'cause it looks like they would be , that would be a really main cost source then
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: right ?
Industrial Designer: My estimate is that in order to incorporate touch screen technology it's gonna cost us upwards of seventeen fifty Euro per remote ,
Project Manager: To produce each one .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Per ?
Industrial Designer: yeah that's just an estimate though .
Marketing: Piece .
User Interface: Oh you guys are always the dampers on these projects .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I know
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: You industrial designers . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I know .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Hmm .
Industrial Designer: It's fun . {vocalsound}
Marketing: And our goal was to be under twelve fifty or we have to be under twelve fifty ?
Project Manager: Well .
Marketing: Do we remember ?
Industrial Designer: I thought there was some flexibility with that .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: There is , it's just , it is a question of {disfmarker} and how much ca o does that mean we're gonna have to increase the price to make money .
Marketing: Can we justify it ?
Project Manager: Um , from twelve fifty if we d wanna get our fift uh hundred per cent profit margin {vocalsound} um that would mean selling it from twenty five . If you multiply seventeen fifty by two that's thirty five .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Where do you guys come up with these numbers ?
Industrial Designer: That's just off the top of my head ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} From the board ,
Industrial Designer: it is pending further emails . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right .
Project Manager: um , well {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Though I think that's what people would pay for ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I mean if you're gonna pay for an expensive high class remote , you're gonna expect it to do something {disfmarker}
Project Manager: That's true , I mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It is the new {disfmarker} it would be in a class of its own .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And that's {disfmarker} to be fair the um the per cent of the market {disfmarker} we're not going for mass any you know , mass sales anyway , we're gonna make {disfmarker} I mean we we're not talking about selling eight zillion of these things , we just couldn't , not for twenty-five Euros ,
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: so we could probably maybe shrink the profit margins rather than selling for twenty five , sell 'em for thirty , but that's something that we can have finance deal with . Um , I say that we provisionally go with the touch screen
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: or wh y wh what was your thought on the matter Ron ?
User Interface: I'm thinking that's uh definitely a good idea and I also think that we could probably come up with some sort of a cheaper uh means to to go about this kind of production , my my team in the uh {disfmarker} on the third floor suggested that uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: See if we can cut some corners .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Right . Well and we can look into this other manufacturing option , and maybe we can get 'em somewhere else cheaper .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: It's true .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: We could initially go with what we have and if we can find them cheaper later on {disfmarker}
Marketing: Right . It's a starting point anyway , so .
Project Manager: No we could have a s very simple touch screen , you know , there's always the opportunity , if it's gonna be about the size of the iPod or whatever , you know , w we {disfmarker} yeah , I guess we can play around with it a bit . Alright , let's let's say that okay so the touch screen will be our {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} our main selling point here .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}
User Interface: I mean I think that we really have two main selling points , I think that our casing and the voice recognition {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah 'cause with voice recognition {disfmarker} I mean really this is pretty bells and whistles kinda remote .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} The voice rec thing ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: I mean , {vocalsound} if if we're looking at bottom line , now we're looking at upping the cost to seventeen to get the touch screen on ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think we might have to drop the voice rec .
Marketing: I think we'd have to decide between 'em definitely .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: To be honest , we have the capa we have the design in-house ,
Marketing: Price-wise .
User Interface: I mean we've we've come up with this , with this new voice {disfmarker}
Marketing: True .
User Interface: we're using it for our coffee machines already .
Marketing: We've already got it .
User Interface: I can pass you on that email from my uh guy in uh {disfmarker} guy down the hall . Sounds good .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Hmm . What do you think on it Nathan ? About the voice rec ?
Industrial Designer: I think if we {disfmarker} we do both the {disfmarker} obviously production costs are going to go way up um but it does put it into {disfmarker} it'd become the Rolls Royce of remote controls basically . It would be very nice .
Marketing: Pretty much .
User Interface: I mean we we have to r reflect back on what our market research did say .
Marketing: Right and they said they wanted voice recognition . Course , maybe they hadn't thought of this whole touch screen option , but definitely we know the market is there for voice recognition so to say we have the technology and we're not gonna use it even though we know it'll sell is a call I don't think I can give the highs ups .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Like really I can't go in and say no we're gonna just ignore everything we know . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Does having both really up our costs ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I can't see how it wouldn't , I mean , there's you know the old aphorism , you can have it fast , you can have it cheap or you can have it quality , pick two of three . You know , you can't you can't have all three .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , 'cause you {disfmarker} you just upping the number of chips that you need to deal with each different function .
Project Manager: It's just impossible .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Well if we're gonna pick betwe e alright so we have to pick between one of the two . Um . Otherwise , yeah , we just {disfmarker} it just becomes cost prohibitive . What {disfmarker} which , which do we suspect we should hold o we should hold on to ?
Marketing: Well , we already have research backing voice recognition as you know fiscally solvent . But uh I I I personally would tend to another direction but if that's what's gonna sell I think that's what we need to go with and maybe we can table this touch screen for our next model .
Industrial Designer: I would have to side with that ,
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: I think the voice recognition is simpler , we already have the {disfmarker} all the technology in-house , it's ready to go , it's packaged , it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What does the cost look like Ron ? Is it cheaper to do the V_R_ or to do the uh touch screen ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well my p {vocalsound} is {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Nathan ?
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Um , this is just off the top of my head keep in mind , but I think the voice recognition would {disfmarker} they're both mm they're both gonna push the costs up , but um , since we already have the technology in-house for the voice recognition
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: we're not gonna have to do as much design work
Marketing: {vocalsound} Right .
Industrial Designer: and sometimes the design work is what push the costs up , if you know what I mean .
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um , I definitely have to agree with that last comment .
Marketing: And we're still not {disfmarker} then we don't have to deal with this battery issue nearly as much either ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: we can stick with what we've already got . In a lot other ways too .
Project Manager: Okay . So I'm getting {disfmarker} alright so more or less you guys think that o o of the two of 'em , the voice recognition will be better . Okay .
Marketing: I think it's our lower risk option
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: which for right now {disfmarker} we can have it on the market sooner which is all in all our best option .
Project Manager: Okay . Sorted .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We will omit the touch screen in favour of voice recognition .
User Interface: It's you and me outside a little here . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So and when are we gonna have basic prototypes coming up next that's {disfmarker} you guys's next step right ?
Project Manager: Yeah , well we'll we'll sic we'll sort out what it {disfmarker} what {vocalsound} f what else we're gonna talk about for the prototype
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: but yeah that's our next step , it'll be a developing of prototype .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Are we going to talk now about um the materials that we're gonna use for the case and all those things ?
Project Manager: Yes . We'll just run through it yeah , yeah , um .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: You discussed either a lithium or a solar power . Would the solar power be enough to fuel a voice recognition ? Or this kinesthetic one , would that be enough to fuel a voice recognition remote control ?
Industrial Designer: Um , the solar power definitely would be but I think just to keep people from getting annoyed , 'cause sometimes solar power fails and there's no way round that , we should install a small backup battery .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Just to cover those moments when for whatever reason , the remote hasn't been exposed to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well what of people with like the T_V_ in their basement ,
Project Manager: Mm . Yep .
Marketing: like what if {disfmarker} wha we can't guarantee sunlight everywhere so having a secondary source is probably {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's true . Yeah , it works about the same as a solar powered calculator ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and you know how those those don't really require that much light ,
User Interface: Calculator .
Marketing: Yeah . True . True .
Industrial Designer: um , but obviously a little more light than a calculator , but we're not talking about a lot of light . Doesn't have to be out taking a sunbath for a few hours a day or anything .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Right .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: What do you think Ron ?
User Interface: I'm willing to agree with everything that's been said .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Uh I have to say though that um another idea's come up in my head . If we're really not uh handling the remote control to a great extent we could possibly get away from the idea of having a hand-held remote control and maybe kind of have a round remote control that kind of looks like a paperweight or something like that , kind of a sleek little uh neat thing that sits on your table or something .
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: Interesting .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Why , why moving away from hand-held , why ?
User Interface: Just a thought .
Industrial Designer: What's the uh idea ?
User Interface: Well if you don't need to pick it up it could kind of be a selling point .
Marketing: I if it's got voice recognition it can be technically anywhere in your room and still do its job .
Industrial Designer: Hmm . Do you think people that are {disfmarker} people that buy a remote , are they always gonna wanna use the voice recognition or is it just something that they do sometimes .
Marketing: True , and i probabl I think we're banking on selling it to more than just voice recognition people , like we want it to work fundamentally as a basic manual too ,
Project Manager: Well we have to have buttons on it too as well .
Marketing: right .
Project Manager: But that's done , that's no bother I mean if you look at the catalogue from places like with sharper image or whatever you know they might have {disfmarker} or like um {vocalsound} who is it , Apple makes these really pretentious speakers with the th sub-woofers you know like clear and glass and you know
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and then they got these little pyramidal type of um speakers .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: I mean , why not have a little rounded kind of thing ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: it could still have the basic buttons on it . Um , 'cause we're going for basic functionality primarily as well .
Marketing: With the bu yeah .
Project Manager: And maybe a menu button and so forth , you know um use a channel button to scroll through the menu d if they want to record programmes or whatever you know I mean we can sort that out .
Industrial Designer: I think , I think you're on to something
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: because we need to escape the traditional shape of a remote . Maybe something that looks nice on a table is {disfmarker} would be good , even though {disfmarker} and hand-held the same time .
Marketing: True . Way to go .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I think it's all about following Apple's lead on a lot of these things .
Marketing: Yeah I'm thinking of the airport portal ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: you know like that little pod looking thing ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , those are nice .
User Interface: Exactly .
Project Manager: Yeah , I mean a nice {disfmarker} although we do um wh uh is {disfmarker} I'm recalling that she mentioned that we n need to get away from the surgical white kind of brushed aluminium thing
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: and get back to it
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: but you could have a very tasteful um wood coloured or earth tone kind of um {disfmarker}
Marketing: That would be kinda neat . Terracotta bowl or something . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Still , I mean , yeah , along those lines .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah I like that , I like that idea a lot . Um , let's see what we can do as far as that goes . And the uh the material like the plastics and so forth , we were discussing that being uh {disfmarker} using like a rubber kind of softer feel ,
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: um you know
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: li lik if you feel the the tip on this pen it's a bit {disfmarker} gives just a bit . You know
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: something where it's uh a a more advanced f form of plastic that has some kind of a tactile response to it .
Industrial Designer: Right . Just kind of the squishy feel .
Marketing: Yeah , which is the next big thing , so that's not gonna hurt us either . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah let's see if we can do a squishy non-remote control-looking remote control .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But to be fair , yeah , I mean , you just c you could just put it {disfmarker} literally put it on the the ni the coffee table next to the telly and say volume up .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah I like it , I like the idea , that's good .
Marketing: Handy .
Project Manager: Um and we've sorted of discussed costs , {vocalsound} um . I guess we'll a that's gonna be uh a thing , if we run a bit over-budget , that might be okay , um .
Industrial Designer: Sorry about the uh lack of information on cost , I just haven't been provided that information by our manufacturers
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We'll have more of an idea when the prototype {disfmarker} have more of a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and I'm just having to guess .
Project Manager: we'll have more of an idea later on . Um . And we just yeah go from there . {vocalsound} Um , so
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we've revisited the touch screen and more or less ruled that out , um , I think so we're more or less con we {disfmarker} wh wh we're more or less in agreement that we want to have a um {vocalsound} a simple kind of function , you know , not too complex .
Marketing: Mm . Right . Well when the majority of people are only using the most primary functions on a daily basis , although I'm not saying we should completely rule out major functions , they should be secondary , at least if not functionally then visually , like those shouldn't be {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: Like maybe have menu things .
Marketing: Take precedence ,
Industrial Designer: If , if we're not going the touch-screen route then we can um just incorporate maybe something that folds out
Marketing: yeah .
Industrial Designer: like what you often see on these kinds of remotes is the most basic functions up here
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: and something that slides down to reveal the you know more complicated things .
Marketing: And they slide .
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: Well and do we wanna consider like an iPod screen which isn't a touch screen but you're still scrolling through menu options , in p
User Interface: {vocalsound} Think then we're hitting our cost issue again .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah
Marketing: True ,
Project Manager: we've also got the the me the thing of ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: we're still not making it easier then .
Project Manager: if we're gonna have a non-remote-looking remote , how do we {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: True .
Project Manager: B But no I mean
Marketing: Fair enough .
Project Manager: we could do a slide or a compartment , you know , like if it {disfmarker} say it's a lit little vaguely ovoidal type of thing , it'd be easy to have a compartment in there .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Or you know , a b a b a a series of you know three or four buttons with a menu button and then a side an s up and down type of thing , like on um {disfmarker} like on a D_V_D_ player . You know you see the modern D_V_D_ players'll just have um a menu button on the side and then four buttons around them
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah it's just a scroll .
Project Manager: and you can just kind of manoeuvre through the menu like that .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So are we gonna {disfmarker} are we talking {disfmarker} we need to figure out what kind of buttons we're going to use , are we going to use scroll buttons ? Rubber buttons ? Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well it seems like {vocalsound} I dunno it seems to me that we could just do the um {disfmarker} stick with the rubber 'cause since we're probably gonna be using some kind of um {vocalsound} rubber for the outside case
Marketing: Yeah . Probably .
Project Manager: we might as well stick with that um .
Industrial Designer: Right .
User Interface: I think to a certain extent we have to stick with uh kind of uh a little bit traditional in terms of the buttons and then and then make our unique feature our casing and what not and our voice command .
Marketing: Right . Mm . Well no it's basic just like four directions that are {disfmarker} that can use as menu or channel and volume or however you wanna do it , are really versatile and everybody's already got them to some extent on the remotes they already own so it's not like we're dealing with everybody relearning things 'cause that's not something anybody's gonna wanna buy a new for .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay , um . {vocalsound} We've already kind of covered this as well . That seems to be selling {vocalsound} um and we we've more or less agreed that we want to kar target this youth market , um .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Especially now with eighteen to thirty five year olds being such a large quantity of the population . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Right , particularly in technological fields ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
Marketing: so that's exactly where we're headed .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} Um . Yeah alright , well , more or less covered what we need to cover I think fi an an any final thoughts before we think about doing the protot moving on to the prototype .
User Interface: Well what are we actually doing ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Right .
User Interface: What were {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I was just gonna step on to um {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh . Oh it wasn't in the way but {disfmarker} yeah , whatever .
Project Manager: I wasn't ? Oh , my bad {vocalsound} um sorry .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No , don't worry about it .
Project Manager: The um , yeah okay I was just gonna assign tasks in the next b anyth any oth
User Interface: Sure .
Project Manager: any other final thoughts before we go ahead and
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: {disfmarker} cool ?
Industrial Designer: So
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: have we decided that we are gonna go with different style cases for different people ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um .
Industrial Designer: Or are we just going to go with one ? ..It's very , it's very hard thing to predict because you have different cases
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and that might open up your market a little bit obviously , but if you have just one case and it doesn't go very well {disfmarker} mm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It's a tough situation ,
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: but obviously having more cases also costs more so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well then again colours wouldn't be so hard to do , you could have uh a , you know , a um uh kind of a natural wood colour , like a stained wood and um , I don't know , olive green or something .
Industrial Designer: There's an idea .
Marketing: Mm . Yeah .
Project Manager: That wouldn't be so much of a problem to incorporate into the colour of the {gap} thing .
User Interface: And again copying iMac's kind of {disfmarker} for iPod Mac Apple's uh colour scheme .
Marketing: Yeah , get in there . Yeah , totally .
Project Manager: Yeah , I think that's probably a good id okay so let's work on {vocalsound} uh multiple case colours . But yeah , stick with the same kind of kinda {disfmarker} yeah , the same basic non-remote kind of remote design . Cool . Alright , so we'll have the next meeting about half an hour , um . I want the uh {disfmarker} I'd like {disfmarker} Nathan , I'd like you to work on just the basic look and feel , what can we accomplish , um , given these parameters that we're just gonna sort of have this kind of uh non-remote remote . Um , what are our broad constraints before we deve design a prototype . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: And um Ron if you can figure out how probably best to lay out this idea of this simple design with the voice recognition built in and also this kind of drop down or s on the side kind of menu options simple . Somehow work out how we can get this all s in the same place . Um , and if you can check product evaluation with m some pilots and stuff . Um I need you guys to work together on making a prototype , {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} using um {vocalsound} prototype building materials um {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And also um specific instructions will be sent to you by your coaches as well .
Industrial Designer: Oh excellent yeah .
Project Manager: So that's what to start with for now , is that alright , you guys feel clear about this ?
Marketing: Cool .
Industrial Designer: That sounds good .
User Interface: Fabulous .
Project Manager: Alright . I guess we'll just hit the bricks . Thanks guys .
Marketing: Cool . | |
doc_106 | Professor A: OK .
Grad B: OK we 're on and we seem to be working .
PhD C: Yes .
Professor A: OK .
Grad B: We didn't crash {disfmarker} we 're not crashing anymore
PhD C: One , two , three , four , f
Grad B: and it really bothers me .
Professor A: Yeah ?
PhD C: No crashing .
PhD G: I do . I crashed when I started this morning .
Grad B: You crashed {disfmarker} crashed this morning ? I did not crash this morning .
PhD C: Yeah ?
Professor A: Oh ! Well maybe it 's just , you know , how many t u u u u how many times you crash in a day .
PhD G: Really ? Yeah . Maybe , yeah .
Professor A: First time {disfmarker} first time in the day , you know .
PhD G: Or maybe it 's once you 've {pause} done enough meetings {comment} it won't crash on you anymore .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD C: No ?
Postdoc F: Yeah .
PhD G: It 's a matter of experience .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Self - learning , yeah .
Professor A: That 's {disfmarker} that 's great .
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor A: Uh .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: Do we have an agenda ? Liz {disfmarker} Liz and Andreas can't sh can't {disfmarker} uh , can't come .
Grad B: I do .
Professor A: So , they won't be here .
Grad B: I have agenda and it 's all me .
PhD G: Did {disfmarker}
Grad B: Cuz no one sent me anything else .
PhD G: Did they send , uh , the messages to you about the meeting today ?
Grad B: I have no idea but I just got it a few minutes ago .
PhD G: Oh .
Grad B: Right when you were in my office it arrived .
PhD G: Oh . OK , cuz I checked my mail . I didn't have anything .
Grad B: So , does anyone have any a agenda items other than me ? I actually have one more also which is to talk about the digits .
Professor A: Uh , right , so {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I was just gonna talk briefly about the NSF ITR .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Grad B: Oh , great .
Professor A: Uh , and then , you have {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: Can w
Professor A: I mean , I won't say much , but {disfmarker} {comment} uh , but then , uh , you said {disfmarker} wanna talk about digits ?
Grad B: I have a short thing about digits and then uh I wanna talk a little bit about naming conventions , although it 's unclear whether this is the right place to talk about it . So maybe just talk about it very briefly and take the details to the people who {disfmarker} for whom it 's relevant .
Professor A: Right .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc F: I could always say something about transcription . I 've been {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} uh , well {disfmarker}
Professor A: Well if we {disfmarker} Yeah , we shouldn't add things in just to add things in . I 'm actually pretty busy today ,
Postdoc F: Yeah .
Professor A: so if we can {disfmarker} {comment} {vocalsound} we {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Professor A: a short meeting would be fine .
Postdoc F: This does sound like we 're doing fine , yeah . That won't do .
Grad B: So the only thing I wanna say about digits is , we are pretty much done with the first test set . There are probably forms here and there that are marked as having been read that weren't really read . So I won't really know until I go through all the transcriber forms and extract out pieces that are in error . So I wa Uh . Two things . The first is what should we do about digits that were misread ? My opinion is , um , we should just throw them out completely , and have them read again by someone else . You know , the grouping is completely random ,
PhD C: Uh - huh .
Grad B: so it {disfmarker} it 's perfectly fine to put a {disfmarker} a group together again of errors and have them re - read , just to finish out the test set .
Postdoc F: Oh ! By {disfmarker} throw them out completely ?
Grad B: Um , the other thing you could do is change the transcript to match what they really said . So those are {disfmarker} those are the two options .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: But there 's often things where people do false starts . I know I 've done it , where I say {disfmarker} say a {disfmarker}
Grad B: What the transcribers did with that is if they did a correction , and they eventually did read the right string , {comment} you extract the right string .
PhD G: Oh , you 're talking about where they completely read the wrong string and didn't correct it ?
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad B: Yeah . And didn't notice . Which happens in a few places .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD G: Ah .
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad B: So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: Well , and s and you 're talking string - wise , you 're not talking about the entire page ?
Grad B: Correct .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc F: I get it .
Grad B: And so the {disfmarker} the two options are change the transcript to match what they really said , but then {disfmarker} but then the transcript isn't the Aurora test set anymore . I don't think that really matters because the conditions are so different . And that would be a little easier .
PhD G: Well how many are {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} how often does that happen ?
Grad B: Mmm , five or six times .
PhD G: Oh , so it 's not very much .
Grad B: No , it 's not much at all .
PhD G: Seems like we should just change the transcripts
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad B: OK .
PhD G: to match .
Professor A: Yeah , it 's five or six times out of {pause} thousands ?
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad B: Four thousand .
Professor A: Four thousand ?
PhD C: Four thous Ah ! Four thousand .
PhD G: Yeah , it 's {disfmarker}
Professor A: Yeah , I would , uh , {vocalsound} tak do the easy way ,
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor A: yeah .
Grad B: OK .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: It {disfmarker} it 's kinda nice {disfmarker} I mean , wh who knows what studies people will be doing on {disfmarker} on speaker - dependent things
PhD C: Mmm .
Professor A: and so I think having {disfmarker} having it all {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: the speakers who we had is {disfmarker} is at least interesting .
PhD G: So you {disfmarker} um , how many digits have been transcribed now ?
Grad B: Four thousand lines . And each line is between one and about ten digits .
PhD G: Four thousand lines ?
Grad B: I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't compute the average . I think the average was around four or five .
Professor A: So that 's a couple hours of {disfmarker} of , uh , speech , probably .
PhD G: Wow .
Grad B: Yep . Yep .
Professor A: Which is a yeah reasonable {disfmarker} reasonable test set .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: And , Jane , I do have a set of forms which I think you have copies of somewhere .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm . Yeah , true .
Grad B: Oh you do ? Oh OK , good , good .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad B: Yeah , I was just wond I thought I had {disfmarker} had all of them back from you . And then the other thing is that , uh , the forms in front of us here that we 're gonna read later , were suggested by Liz
Postdoc F: No , not yet .
Grad B: because she wanted to elicit some different prosodics from digits . And so , uh , I just wanted people to , take a quick look at the instructions
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Eight eight two two two nine .
Grad B: and the way it wa worked and see if it makes sense and if anyone has any comments on it .
Professor A: I see . And the decision here , uh , was to continue with uh the words rather than the {disfmarker} the numerics .
Grad B: Uh , yes , although we could switch it back . The problem was O and zero . Although we could switch it back and tell them always to say " zero " or always to say " O " .
Postdoc F: Oh {disfmarker}
Professor A: Or neither .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: But it 's just two thing {disfmarker} ways that you can say it .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Right ?
Grad B: Sure .
Postdoc F: Oh .
Professor A: Um {disfmarker} um ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: that 's the only thought I have because if you t start talking about these , you know u tr She 's trying to get at natural groupings , but it {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's nothing natural about reading numbers this way .
Grad B: Right .
Professor A: I mean if you saw a telephone number you would never see it this way .
Grad B: The {disfmarker} the problem also is she did want to stick with digits . I mean I 'm speaking for her since she 's not here .
Professor A: Yeah .
Grad B: But , um , the other problem we were thinking about is if you just put the numerals , {comment} they might say forty - three instead of four three .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD G: Mmm .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Well , if there 's space , though , between them . I mean , you can {disfmarker} With {disfmarker} when you space them out they don't look like , uh , forty - three anymore .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad B: Well , she and I were talking about it ,
Professor A: Yeah .
Grad B: and she felt that it 's very , very natural to do that sort of chunking .
Professor A: She 's right . It 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's a different problem . I mean it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} it 's an interesting problem {disfmarker} I mean , we 've done stuff with numbers before , and yeah sometimes people {disfmarker} If you say s " three nine eight one " sometimes people will say " thirty - nine eighty - one " or " three hundred {disfmarker} three hundred eighty - nine one " , or {disfmarker} I don't think they 'd say that ,
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: but {disfmarker} but th
Grad B: Not very frequently
Professor A: no {disfmarker}
Grad B: but , {vocalsound} they certainly could .
Professor A: But {disfmarker} Yeah . Uh , th thirty - eight ninety - one is probably how they 'd do it .
Grad B: So . I mean , this is something that Liz and I spoke about
Professor A: But {disfmarker} I see .
Grad B: and , since this was something that Liz asked for specifically , I think we need to defer to her .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: OK . Well , we 're probably gonna be collecting meetings for a while and if we decide we still wanna do some digits later we might be able to do some different ver different versions ,
Grad B: Do something different ,
Professor A: but this is the next suggestion ,
Grad B: yeah .
Professor A: so . OK . OK , so uh e l I guess , let me , uh , get my {disfmarker} my short thing out about the NSF . I sent this {disfmarker} actually this is maybe a little side thing . Um , I {disfmarker} I sent to what I thought we had , uh , in some previous mail , as the right joint thing to send to , which was " M {disfmarker} MTG RCDR hyphen joint " .
Grad B: It was . Joint . Yep .
Professor A: But then I got some sort of funny mail saying that the moderator was going to {disfmarker}
Grad B: It 's {disfmarker} That 's because they set the one up at UW {disfmarker}
Postdoc F:
Grad B: that 's not on our side , that 's on the U - dub {comment} side .
Professor A: Oh .
Grad B: And so U - UW set it up as a moderated list .
Postdoc F: Yeah .
Professor A: Oh , OK .
Grad B: And , I have no idea whether it actually ever goes to anyone so you might just wanna mail to Mari
Professor A: No {disfmarker} no , th I got {disfmarker} I got , uh , little excited notes from Mari and Jeff and so on ,
Grad B: and {disfmarker}
Professor A: so it 's {disfmarker}
Grad B: OK , good .
Professor A: Yeah .
Grad B: So the moderator actually did repost it .
Professor A: Yeah .
Grad B: Cuz I had sent one earlier {disfmarker} Actually the same thing happened to me {disfmarker} I had sent one earlier . The message says , " You 'll be informed " and then I was never informed but I got replies from people indicating that they had gotten it , so .
Professor A: Right .
Grad B: It 's just to prevent spam .
Professor A: I see . Yeah so O {disfmarker} OK . Well , anyway , I guess {disfmarker} everybody here {disfmarker} Are y are {disfmarker} you are on that list , right ? So you got the note ?
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Yeah ? OK .
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor A: Um , so this was , uh , a , uh , proposal that we put in before on {disfmarker} on more {disfmarker} more higher level , uh , issues in meetings , from {disfmarker} I guess higher level from my point of view . Uh , {vocalsound} and , uh , meeting mappings , and , uh {disfmarker} so is i for {disfmarker} it was a {vocalsound} proposal for the ITR program , uh , Information Technology Research program 's part of National Science Foundation . It 's the {pause} second year of their doing , uh , these grants . They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} a lot of them are {disfmarker} some of them anyway , are larger {disfmarker} larger grants than the usual , small NSF grants , and . So , they 're very competitive , and they have a first phase where you put in pre - proposals , and we {disfmarker} we , uh , got through that . And so th the {disfmarker} the next phase will be {disfmarker} we 'll actually be doing a larger proposal . And I 'm {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I hope to be doing very little of it . And {disfmarker} uh , {vocalsound} which was also true for the pre - proposal , so . Uh , there 'll be bunch of people working on it . So .
Grad B: When 's {disfmarker} when 's the full proposal due ?
Professor A: Uh , I think April ninth , or something . So it 's about a month .
PhD E: p s
Professor A: Um {disfmarker}
Grad B: Yep . And they said end of business day you could check on the reviewer forms ,
PhD G: u
Grad B: is that {disfmarker}
PhD G: Tomorrow .
Professor A: Tomorrow . March second , I said .
PhD E: Tomorrow ?
Grad B: I 've been a day off all week .
PhD C: Tomorrow .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad B: I guess that 's a good thing cuz that way I got my papers done early .
PhD G: It would be interesting {disfmarker}
Professor A: So that 's amazing you showed up at this meeting !
Grad B: It is . It is actually quite amazing .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD G: It 'll be interesting to see the reviewer 's comments .
Professor A: Yeah . Yeah . My favorite is was when {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when one reviewer says , uh , " you know , this should be far more detailed " , and the nex the next reviewer says , " you know , there 's way too much detail " .
Grad B: Yep . Or " this is way too general " , and the other reviewer says , " this is way too specific " .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: Yeah .
Grad B: " This is way too hard " , " way too easy " .
Professor A: We 'll see . Maybe there 'll be something useful . And {disfmarker} and , uh {disfmarker}
Grad B: Well it sounded like they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} the first gate was pretty easy . Is that right ? That they didn't reject a lot of the pre - proposals ?
Professor A: Do you know anything about the numbers ?
Grad B: No . Just {disfmarker} just th
PhD G: It 's just from his message it sounded like that .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah . I said something , yeah .
PhD G: Gary Strong 's {disfmarker}
Professor A: I
PhD G: there was a sentence at the end of one of his paragraphs
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD G: I {disfmarker}
Professor A: I should go back and look . I didn't {disfmarker} I don't think that 's true .
Grad B: Yeah , OK .
PhD G: Mmm . He said the next phase 'll be very , competitive
PhD E: Very {disfmarker} very ,
PhD G: because we didn't want to weed out much in the first phase .
PhD E: yeah . Yeah .
Professor A: Well we 'll have to see what the numbers are .
Grad B: Or something like that ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: so .
PhD C: Hmm .
Professor A: Yeah . But they {disfmarker} they have to weed out enough so that they have enough reviewers .
Grad B: Right .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: So , uh , you know , maybe they didn't r weed out as much as usual , but it 's {disfmarker} it 's usually a pretty {disfmarker} But it {disfmarker} Yeah . It 's {disfmarker} it 's certainly not {disfmarker} I 'm sure that it 's not down to one in two or something of what 's left .
Grad B: Right .
Professor A: I 'm sure it 's , you know {disfmarker}
Grad B: How {disfmarker} how many awards are there , do you know ?
Professor A: Well there 's different numbers of w awards for different size {disfmarker} They have three size grants . This one there 's , um {disfmarker} See the small ones are less than five hundred thousand total over three years and that they have a fair number of them . Um , and the large ones are , uh , boy , I forget , I think , more than , uh , more than a million and a half , more than two million or something like that . And {disfmarker} and we 're in the middle {disfmarker} middle category .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: I think we 're , uh , uh , I forget what it was . But , um {disfmarker} Uh , I don't remember , but it 's {pause} pr probably along the li I {disfmarker} I could be wrong on this yeah , but probably along the lines of fifteen or {disfmarker} that they 'll fund , or twenty . I mean when they {disfmarker} Do you {disfmarker} do you know how many they funded when they f in {disfmarker} in Chuck 's , that he got last year ?
PhD G: I don't {disfmarker} I don't know .
Professor A: Yeah .
Grad B: I thought it was smaller , that it was like four or five , wasn't it ?
Professor A: Well they fund {disfmarker}
PhD G: I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker}
Professor A: they {disfmarker}
PhD G: I don't remember .
Professor A: yeah . I mean {disfmarker}
Grad B: Uh it doesn't matter , we 'll find out one way or another .
Professor A: Yeah . I mean last time I think they just had two categories , small and big ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: and this time they came up with a middle one , so it 'll {disfmarker} there 'll be more of them that they fund than {disfmarker} of the big .
PhD G: If we end up getting this , um , what will it mean to ICSI in terms of , w wh where will the money go to , what would we be doing with it ?
Professor A: Uh .
Grad B: Exactly what we say in the proposal .
PhD G: I {disfmarker} I mean uh which part is ICSI though .
Professor A: You know , it {disfmarker} i None of it will go for those yachts that we 've talking about .
PhD G: I mean {disfmarker} Dang !
Professor A: Um , well , no , I mean it 's {disfmarker} u It {disfmarker}
PhD G: It 's just for the research {disfmarker} to continue the research on the Meeting Recorder stuff ?
Professor A: It 's extending the research , right ? Because the other {disfmarker}
PhD G: Yeah .
Grad B: Yeah it 's go higher level stuff than we 've been talking about for Meeting Recorder .
Professor A: Yeah . Yeah the other things that we have , uh , been working on with , uh , the c with Communicator {disfmarker} uh , especially with the newer things {disfmarker} with the more acoustically - oriented things are {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} are lower level . And , this is dealing with , uh , mapping on the level of {disfmarker} of , um , the conversation {disfmarker} of mapping the conversations
PhD G: Mm - hmm . Right , right .
Professor A: to different kind of planes . So . Um . But , um . So it 's all it 's all stuff that none none of us are doing right now , or none of us are funded for , so it 's {disfmarker} so it 's {disfmarker} it would be new .
PhD G: So assuming everybody 's completely busy now , it means we 're gonna hafta , hire more students , or , something ?
Professor A: Well there 's evenings , and there 's weekends , and {disfmarker} Uh . Yeah , there {disfmarker} there would be {disfmarker} there would be new hires , and {disfmarker} and there {disfmarker} there would be expansion , but , also , there 's always {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for everybody there 's {disfmarker} there 's always things that are dropping off , grants that are ending , or other things that are ending , so ,
PhD G: Right .
Professor A: there 's {disfmarker} there 's a {vocalsound} continual need to {disfmarker} to bring in new things .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: Yep .
PhD G: Right .
Professor A: But {disfmarker} but there definitely would be new {disfmarker} new {disfmarker} new , uh , students ,
PhD G: I see .
Professor A: and so forth , both at {disfmarker} at UW and here .
Grad B: Are there any students in your class who are {vocalsound} expressing interest ?
Professor A: Um , not {pause} clear yet . Not clear yet .
Grad B: Other than the one who 's already here .
Professor A: I mean we got {vocalsound} {disfmarker} we have {disfmarker} yeah , two of them are {disfmarker} two in the c There 're {pause} two in the class already here , and then {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and , uh {disfmarker} uh , then there 's a third who 's doing a project here , who , uh {disfmarker} But he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he won't be in the country that long ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: and , maybe another will end up .
Grad B: Yep .
Professor A: Actually there is one other guy who 's looking {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's that guy , uh , Jeremy ? {comment} I think .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Anyway , yeah that 's {disfmarker} that 's all I was gonna say is that {disfmarker} that that 's {disfmarker} you know , that 's nice and we 're sorta preceding to the next step , and , {vocalsound} it 'll mean some more work , uh , you know , in {disfmarker} in March in getting the proposal out , and then , it 's , uh , you know {disfmarker} We 'll see what happens . Uh , the last one was {disfmarker} that you had there , {comment} was about naming ?
Grad B: Yep . It just , uh {disfmarker} we 've been cutting up sound files , in {disfmarker} for ba both digits and for , uh , doing recognition . And Liz had some suggestions on naming and it just brought up the whole issue that hasn't really been resolved about naming . So , uh , one thing she would like to have is for all the names to be the same length so that sorting is easier . Um ,
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad B: same number of characters so that when you 're sorting filenames you can easily extract out bits and pieces that you want . And that 's easy enough to do . And I don't think we have so many meetings that that 's a big deal just to change the names . So that means , uh , instead of calling it " MR one " , " MR two " , you 'd call it " MRM zero zero one " , " MRM zero zero two " , things like that . Just so that they 're {disfmarker} they 're all the same length .
Postdoc F: But , you know , when you , do things like that you can always {disfmarker} as long as you have {disfmarker} uh , you can always search from the beginning or the end of the string .
Grad B: The problem is that they 're a lot of fields .
Postdoc F: You know , so " zero zero two " {disfmarker}
Grad B: Alright ,
Postdoc F: Yeah .
Grad B: so we {disfmarker} we have th we 're gonna have the speaker ID , the session , uh {disfmarker} uh , information on the microphones ,
Postdoc F: Yeah , well , your example was really {disfmarker}
Grad B: information on the speak on the channels and all that .
PhD C: Uh - huh .
Postdoc F: i
Grad B: And so if each one of those is a fixed length , the sorting becomes a lot easier .
Postdoc F: OK .
Grad D: She wanted to keep them {vocalsound} the same lengths across different meetings also . So like , the NSA meeting lengths , {comment} all filenames are gonna be the same length as the Meeting Recorder meeting names ?
Grad B: Yep . And as I said , the it 's {disfmarker} we just don't have that many that that 's a big deal .
PhD G: Cuz of digits .
Grad B: And so , uh , um , at some point we have to sort of take a few days off , let the transcribers have a few days off , make sure no one 's touching the data and reorganize the file structures . And when we do that we can also rationalize some of the naming .
Postdoc F: I {disfmarker} I would think though that the transcribe {disfmarker} the transcripts themselves wouldn't need to have such lengthy names .
Grad B: Right .
Postdoc F: So , I mean , you 're dealing with a different domain there , and with start and end times and all that , and channels and stuff ,
Grad B: Right . So the only thing that would change with that is just the directory names ,
Postdoc F: so , it 's a different {pause} set .
Grad B: I would change them to match . So instead of being MR one it would be MRM zero zero one . But I don't think that 's a big deal .
Postdoc F: Fine . Fine .
Grad B: So for {disfmarker} for m the meetings we were thinking about three letters and three numbers for meeting I Ds . Uh , for speakers , M or F and then three numbers , For , uh {disfmarker} and , uh , that also brings up the point that we have to start assembling a speaker database so that we get those links back and forth and keep it consistent . Um , and then , uh , the microphone issues . We want some way of specifying , more than looking in the " key " file , what channel and what mike . What channel , what mike , and what broadcaster . Or {disfmarker} I don't know how to s say it . So I mean with this one it 's this particular headset with this particular transmitter w {pause} as a wireless .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD E: Yep .
Grad B: And you know that one is a different headset and different channel . And so we just need some naming conventions on that .
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad B: And , uh ,
PhD C: Uh - huh .
Grad B: that 's gonna become especially important once we start changing the microphone set - up . We have some new microphones that I 'd like to start trying out , um , once I test them . And then we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll need to specify that somewhere . So I was just gonna do a fixed list of , uh , microphones and types .
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad B: So , as I said {disfmarker}
PhD E: OK .
PhD G: That sounds good .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: Um , {pause} {vocalsound} since we have such a short agenda list I guess I wi I will ask how {disfmarker} how are the transcriptions going ? Yeah .
Postdoc F: The {disfmarker} the news is that I 've {disfmarker} I uh {disfmarker} s So {disfmarker} in s um {disfmarker} So I 've switched to {disfmarker} Start my new sentence . I {disfmarker} I switched to doing the channel - by - channel transcriptions to provide , uh , the {disfmarker} uh , tighter time bins for {disfmarker} partly for use in Thilo 's work and also it 's of relevance to other people in the project . And , um , I discovered in the process a couple of {disfmarker} of interesting things , which , um , one of them is that , um , it seems that there are time lags involved in doing this , uh , uh , using an interface that has so much more complexity to it . And I {disfmarker} and I wanted to maybe ask , uh , Chuck to help me with some of the questions of efficiency . Maybe {disfmarker} I was thinking maybe the best way to do this in the long run may be to give them single channel parts and then piece them together later . And I {disfmarker} I have a script , I can piece them together . I mean , so it 's like , I {disfmarker} I know that I can take them apart and put them together and I 'll end up with the representation which is where the real power of that interface is .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: And it may be that it 's faster to transcribe a channel at a time with only one , uh , sound file and one , uh , set of {disfmarker} of , uh , utterances to check through .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: I 'm a little confused . I thought that {disfmarker} that one of the reason we thought we were so much faster than {disfmarker} than , uh , the {disfmarker} the other transcription , uh , thing was that {disfmarker} that we were using the mixed {pause} file .
Postdoc F: Oh , yes . OK . But , um , with the mixed , when you have an overlap , you only have a {disfmarker} a choice of one start and end time for that entire overlap , which means that you 're not tightly , uh , tuning the individual parts th of that overlap by different speakers .
Professor A: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Postdoc F: So someone may have only said two words in that entire big chunk of overlap .
Professor A: Yeah .
Postdoc F: And for purposes of {disfmarker} of , uh , things like {disfmarker} well , so things like training the speech - nonspeech segmentation thing .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Th - it 's necessary to have it more tightly tuned than that .
Professor A: OK .
Postdoc F: And w and w and , you know , is a It would be wonderful if , uh , it 's possible then to use that algorithm to more tightly tie in all the channels after that but , um , you know , I 've {disfmarker} th the {disfmarker} So , I I don't know exactly where that 's going at this point . But m I was experimenting with doing this by hand and I really do think that it 's wise that we 've had them start the way we have with , uh , m y working off the mixed signal , um , having the interface that doesn't require them to do the ti uh , the time bins for every single channel at a t uh , through the entire interaction .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: Um , I did discover a couple other things by doing this though , and one of them is that , um , um , once in a while a backchannel will be overlooked by the transcriber .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: As you might expect ,
Professor A: Sure .
Postdoc F: because when it 's a b backchannel could well happen in a very densely populated overlap . And if we 're gonna study types of overlaps , which is what I wanna do , an analysis of that , then that really does require listening {comment} to every single channel all the way through the entire {comment} length for all the different speakers . Now , for only four speakers , that 's not gonna be too much time , but if it 's nine speakers , then that i that is more time . So it 's li you know , kind of wondering {disfmarker} And I think again it 's like this {disfmarker} it 's really valuable that Thilo 's working on the speech - nonspeech segmentation because maybe , um , we can close in on that wi without having to actually go to the time that it would take to listen to every single channel from start to finish through every single meeting .
PhD E: Yeah , but those backchannels will always be a problem I think . Uh especially if they 're really short and they 're not very loud and so it {disfmarker} it can {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it will always happen that also the automatic s detection system will miss some of them , so .
Postdoc F: OK . Well so then {disfmarker} then , maybe the answer is to , uh , listen especially densely in places of overlap ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc F: just so that they 're {disfmarker} they 're not being overlooked because of that , and count on accuracy during the sparser phases .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Cuz there are large s spaces of the {disfmarker} That 's a good point . There are large spaces where there 's no overlap at all . Someone 's giving a presentation ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc F: or whatever . That 's {disfmarker} that 's a good {disfmarker} that 's a good thought . And , um , let 's see , there was one other thing I was gonna say . I {disfmarker} I think it 's really interesting data to work with , I have to say , it 's very enjoyable . I really , not {disfmarker} not a problem spending time with these data . Really interesting . And not just because I 'm in there . No , it 's real interesting .
Professor A: Uh , well I think it 's a short meeting . Uh , you 're {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're still in the midst of what you 're doing from what you described last time , I assume ,
PhD C: Is true .
Postdoc F:
Professor A: and {disfmarker}
PhD C: I haven't results , eh , yet
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: but , eh , I {disfmarker} I 'm continue working with the mixed signal now , {comment} after the {disfmarker} the last experience .
Professor A: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD C: And {disfmarker} and I 'm tried to {disfmarker} to , uh , adjust the {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to improve , eh , an harmonicity , eh , detector that , eh , I {disfmarker} I implement .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: But I have problem because , eh , I get , eh , eh , very much harmonics now .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: Um , harmonic {disfmarker} possi possible harmonics , uh , eh , and now I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm trying to {disfmarker} to find , eh , some kind of a , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} of h of help , eh , using the energy to {disfmarker} to distinguish between possible harmonics , and {disfmarker} and other fre frequency peaks , that , eh , corres not harmonics . And , eh , I have to {disfmarker} to talk with y with you , with the group , eh , about the instantaneous frequency , because I have , eh , an algorithm , and , I get , mmm , eh , t t results {disfmarker} similar results , like , eh , the paper , eh , that I {disfmarker} I am following . But , eh , the {disfmarker} the rules , eh , that , eh , people used in the paper to {disfmarker} to distinguish the harmonics , is {disfmarker} doesn't work well .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: And I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I not sure that i {vocalsound} eh , the {disfmarker} the way {disfmarker} o to {disfmarker} ob the way to obtain the {disfmarker} the instantaneous frequency is {pause} right , or it 's {disfmarker} it 's not right . Eh ,
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: I haven't enough file feeling to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to distinguish what happened .
Professor A: Yeah , I 'd like to talk with you about it . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if , uh {disfmarker} If I don't have enough time and y you wanna discuss with someone else {disfmarker} some someone else besides us that you might want to talk to , uh , might be Stephane .
PhD C: Yeah . I talked with Stephane and {disfmarker} and Thilo
Professor A: Yeah and {disfmarker} and Thilo , yeah .
PhD C: and ,
Professor A: Yeah , but {disfmarker}
PhD C: they {disfmarker} nnn they {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they {comment} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they {vocalsound} didn't {disfmarker}
PhD E: I 'm not too experienced with {vocalsound} harmonics
Professor A: I see .
PhD C: they think that {comment} the experience is not enough to {disfmarker}
PhD E: and {disfmarker}
PhD G: Is {disfmarker} is this the algorithm where you hypothesize a fundamental , and then get the energy for all the harmonics of that fundamental ?
PhD C: No , no it 's {disfmarker} No {disfmarker} No . No .
PhD G: And then hypothesize a new fundamental and get the energy {disfmarker}
Professor A: Yeah , that 's wh
PhD C: No . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't proth process the {disfmarker} the fundamental . I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I , ehm {disfmarker} I calculate the {disfmarker} the phase derivate using the FFT .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: And {disfmarker} The algorithm said that , eh , {vocalsound} if you {disfmarker} if you change the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the , eh , nnn {disfmarker} the X - the frequency " X " , eh , using the in the instantaneous frequency , you can find , eh , how , eh , in several frequencies that proba probably the {disfmarker} the harmonics , eh ,
Professor A: Uh - huh .
PhD C: the errors of peaks {disfmarker} the frequency peaks , eh , eh , move around {pause} these , eh {disfmarker} eh frequency harmonic {disfmarker} the frequency of the harmonic . And , {vocalsound} eh , if you {disfmarker} if you compare the {disfmarker} the instantaneous frequency , {vocalsound} eh , {vocalsound} of the {disfmarker} of the , eh , continuous , eh , {vocalsound} eh , filters , that , eh {disfmarker} that , eh , they used eh , to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to {disfmarker} to get , eh , the {disfmarker} the instantaneous frequency ,
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: it probably too , you can find , {vocalsound} eh , that the instantaneous frequency {vocalsound} for the continuous , eh , {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} the output of the continuous filters are very near . And in {pause} my case {disfmarker} i in {disfmarker} equal with our signal , {vocalsound} it doesn't happened .
Professor A: Yeah . I 'd hafta look at that and think about it .
PhD C: And {disfmarker}
Professor A: It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I haven't worked with that either so I 'm not sure {disfmarker} The way {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the simple - minded way I suggested was what Chuck was just saying , is that you could make a {disfmarker} a sieve . You know , y you actually say that here is {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: Let 's {disfmarker} let 's hypothesize that it 's this frequency or that frequency , and {disfmarker} and , uh , maybe you {disfmarker} maybe you could use some other cute methods to , uh , short cut it by {disfmarker} by uh , making some guesses ,
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: but {disfmarker} but uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} uh , I would , uh {disfmarker} I mean you could make some guesses from , uh {disfmarker} from the auto - correlation or something but {disfmarker} but then , given those guesses , try , um , uh , only looking at the energy at multiples of the {disfmarker} of that frequency , and {disfmarker} and see how much of the {disfmarker} take the one that 's maximum . Call that the {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: But {disfmarker}
PhD C: Using the energy of the {disfmarker} of the multiple of the frequency .
Professor A: Of all the harmonics of that . Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD G: Do you hafta do some kind of , uh , low - pass filter before you do that ?
PhD C: I don't use .
PhD G: Or {disfmarker}
PhD C: But , I {disfmarker} I know many people use , eh , low - pass filter to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to get , eh , the pitch .
Professor A: No . To get the pitch , yes .
PhD C: I don't use . To get the pitch , yes .
PhD E: To get the pitch , yeah .
PhD C: But the harmonic , no .
PhD G: But i But the harmonics are gonna be , uh , uh , I don't know what the right word is . Um , they 're gonna be dampened by the uh , vocal tract , right ? The response of the vocal tract .
Professor A: Yeah ?
PhD C: Yeah ?
PhD G: And so {disfmarker} just looking at the energy on those {disfmarker} at the harmonics , is that gonna {disfmarker} ?
Professor A: Well so the thing is that the {disfmarker} This is for , uh , a , um {disfmarker}
PhD G: I m what you 'd like to do is get rid of the effect of the vocal tract . Right ?
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD G: And just look at the {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} at the signal coming out of the glottis .
Professor A: Yeah . Uh , well , yeah that 'd be good .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: But , uh {disfmarker} but I {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but I don't know that you need to {disfmarker}
Grad B: Open wide !
Professor A: but I don't need you {disfmarker} know if you need to get rid of it . I mean that 'd {disfmarker} that 'd be nice but I don't know if it 's ess if it 's essential . Um , I mean {disfmarker} cuz I think the main thing is that , uh , you 're trying {disfmarker}
PhD G: Uh - huh .
Professor A: wha what are you doing this for ? You 're trying distinguish between the case where there is , uh {disfmarker} where {disfmarker} where there are more than {disfmarker} uh , where there 's more than one speaker and the case where there 's only one speaker .
Grad B: Sorry .
Professor A: So if there 's more than one speaker , um {disfmarker} yeah I guess you could {disfmarker} I guess {disfmarker} yeah you 're {disfmarker} so you 're not distinguished between voiced and unvoiced , so {disfmarker} so , i if you don't {disfmarker} if you don't care about that {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: See , if you also wanna {vocalsound} just determine {disfmarker} if you also wanna determine whether it 's unvoiced , {vocalsound} then I think you want to {pause} look {disfmarker} look at high frequencies also , because the f the fact that there 's more energy in the high frequencies is gonna be an ob sort of obvious cue that it 's unvoiced .
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor A: But , i i uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean i i but , um , other than that I guess as far as the one person versus two persons , it would be {pause} primarily a low frequency phenomenon . And if you looked at the low frequencies , yes the higher frequencies are gonna {disfmarker} there 's gonna be a spectral slope . The higher frequencies will be lower energy . But so what . I mean {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that 's {disfmarker} that 's w
PhD C: I will prepare for the next week eh , all my results about the harmonicity and {pause} will {disfmarker} will try to come in and to discuss here , because , eh , I haven't enough feeling to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to u {vocalsound} many time to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to understand what happened with the {disfmarker} with , eh , so many peaks , eh , eh , and {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I see the harmonics there many time but , eh , {vocalsound} there are a lot of peaks , eh , that , eh , they are not harmonics .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: Um , I have to discover what {disfmarker} what is the {disfmarker} the w the best way to {disfmarker} to {comment} {disfmarker} to {comment} c to use them
Professor A: Well , but {disfmarker} yeah I don't think you can {disfmarker} I mean you 're not gonna be able to look at every frame , so I mean {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean I {disfmarker} I really {disfmarker} I I really thought that the best way to do it , and I 'm speaking with no experience on this particular point , but , {vocalsound} my impression was that the best way to do it was however you {disfmarker} You 've used instantaneous frequency , whatever . {comment} However you 've come up {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} with your candidates , you wanna see how much of the energy is in that
PhD C: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor A: as coppo as opposed to all of the {disfmarker} all {disfmarker} the total energy . And , um , if it 's voiced , I guess {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so y I think maybe you do need a voiced - unvoiced determination too . But if it 's voiced ,
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: um , and the , uh {disfmarker} e the fraction of the energy that 's in the harmonic sequence that you 're looking at is relatively low , then it should be {disfmarker} then it 's more likely to be an overlap .
PhD C: Is height . Yeah . This {disfmarker} this is the idea {disfmarker} the idea I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I had to {disfmarker} to compare the {disfmarker} the ratio of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the energy of the harmonics with the {disfmarker} eh , with the , eh , total energy in the spectrum and try to get a ratio to {disfmarker} to distinguish between overlapping and speech . Mmm .
Professor A: But you 're looking a y you 're looking at {disfmarker} Let 's take a second with this . Uh , uh , you 're looking at f at the phase derivative , um , in {disfmarker} in , uh , what domain ? I mean this is {disfmarker} this is in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in bands ? Or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker}
PhD C: No , no , no .
Professor A: Just {disfmarker} just overall {disfmarker}
PhD C: It 's a {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} o i w the band {disfmarker} the band is , eh , from zero to {disfmarker} to four kilohertz . And I {disfmarker} I ot I {disfmarker}
Professor A: And you just take the instantaneous frequency ?
PhD C: Yeah . I u m t I {disfmarker} I used two m two method {disfmarker} two methods . Eh , one , eh , based on the F {disfmarker} eh , FTT . to FFT to {disfmarker} to obtain the {disfmarker} or to study the harmonics from {disfmarker} from the spectrum directly ,
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: and to study the energy and the multiples of
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: frequency . And another {disfmarker} another algorithm I have is the {disfmarker} in the {pause} instantaneous frequency , based on {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on the FFT to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to calculate the {disfmarker} the phase derivate in the time . Eh , uh n the d I mean I {disfmarker} I have two {disfmarker} two algorithms .
Professor A: Right .
PhD C: But , eh , in m {pause} i in my opinion the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the instantaneous frequency , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the behavior , eh , was {disfmarker} th it was very interesting . Because I {disfmarker} I saw {vocalsound} eh , how the spectrum {pause} concentrate , eh ,
Professor A: Oh !
PhD C: around the {disfmarker} the harmonic . But then when I apply the {disfmarker} the rule , eh , of the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} {pause} the instantaneous frequency of the ne of the continuous filter in the {disfmarker} the near filter , the {disfmarker} the rule that , eh , people propose in the paper doesn't work . And I don't know why .
Professor A: But the instantaneous frequency , wouldn't that give you something more like the central frequency of the {disfmarker} you know , of the {disfmarker} where most of the energy is ? I mean , I think if you {disfmarker} Does i does it {disfmarker} Why would it correspond to pitch ?
PhD C: Yeah . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I not sure . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I try to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker}
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: When {vocalsound} first I {disfmarker} {pause} {vocalsound} I calculate , eh , using the FFT ,
Postdoc F: Di - digital camera .
PhD C: the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}
Grad B: Keep forgetting .
PhD C: I get the {disfmarker} {pause} the spectrum ,
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: and I represent all the frequency .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: And {disfmarker} when ou I obtained the instantaneous frequency . And I change {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the @ @ , using the instantaneous frequency , here .
Professor A: Oh , so you scale {disfmarker} you s you do a {disfmarker} a scaling along that axis according to instantaneous {disfmarker}
PhD C: I use {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor A: It 's a kinda normalization .
PhD C: Yeah . Yeah . Because when {disfmarker} when {disfmarker}
Professor A: OK .
PhD C: eh , when i I {disfmarker} I use these {disfmarker} these frequency , eh , the range is different , and the resolution is different .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: And I observe more {disfmarker} more or less , thing like this . And the paper said that , eh , these frequencies are probably , eh , harmonics .
Professor A: I see . Huh .
PhD C: But , eh , they used , eh , a rule , eh , based in the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} because to {disfmarker} to calculate the instantaneous frequency , they use a Hanning window .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: And , they said that , eh , if {pause} these {pause} peak are , eh , harmonics , the f instantaneous frequency , of the contiguous , eh {disfmarker} w eh eh , filters are very near , or have to be very near . But , eh , phh ! I don't {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don I I {disfmarker} and I don't know what is the {disfmarker} what is the distance . And I tried to {disfmarker} to put different distance , eh , to put difference , eh {disfmarker} eh , length of the window , eh , different front sieve , Pfff ! and I {disfmarker} I not sure what happened .
Professor A: OK , yeah well I {disfmarker} I guess I 'm not following it enough . I 'll {comment} probably gonna hafta look at the paper , but {disfmarker} which I 'm not gonna have time to do in the next few days , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm curious about it .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: Um , uh , OK .
Postdoc F: I I did i it did occur to me that this is {disfmarker} uh , the return to the transcription , that there 's one third thing I wanted to {disfmarker} to ex raise as a to as an issue which is , um , how to handle breaths . So , I wanted to raise the question of whether people in speech recognition want to know where the breaths are . And the reason I ask the question is , um , aside from the fact that they 're obviously very time - consuming to encode , uh , the fact that there was some {disfmarker} I had the indication from Dan Ellis in the email that I sent to you ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc F: and you know about , that in principle we might be able to , um , handle breaths by accessi by using cross - talk from the other things , be able that {disfmarker} in principle , maybe we could get rid of them , so maybe {disfmarker} And I was {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't know , I mean we had this an and I didn't {disfmarker} couldn't get back to you ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc F: but the question of whether it 'd be possible to eliminate them from the audio signal , which would be the ideal situation ,
Professor A: I don't know {disfmarker} think it 'd be ideal .
Postdoc F: cuz {disfmarker}
PhD G: Uh - uh .
Professor A: We - See , we 're {disfmarker} we 're dealing with real speech and we 're trying to have it be as real as possible
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: and breaths are part of real speech .
Postdoc F: Well , except that these are really truly {disfmarker} I mean , ther there 's a segment in o the one I did {disfmarker} n the first one that I did for {disfmarker} i for this ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc F: where truly w we 're hearing you breathing like {disfmarker} as if we 're {disfmarker} you 're in our ear , you know , and it 's like {disfmarker} it 's like {disfmarker}
Professor A: Yeah .
Postdoc F: I y i I mean , breath is natural , but not
Professor A: It is {disfmarker} but it is if you record it .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Except that we 're {disfmarker} we 're trying to mimic {disfmarker} Oh , I see what you 're saying . You 're saying that the PDA application would have {disfmarker} uh , have to cope with breath .
Professor A: Yeah .
Grad B: Well
PhD E: No .
Postdoc F: But {disfmarker}
PhD G: An - any application may have to .
Grad B: The P D A might not have to ,
PhD E: No {disfmarker} i
Grad B: but more people than just PDA users are interested in this corpus .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad B: So {disfmarker} so mean you 're right
Postdoc F: OK , then the {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} I have two questions .
Grad B: we could remove it ,
Postdoc F: Yeah ?
Grad B: but I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} we don't wanna w remove it from the corpus , {pause} in terms of delivering it because the {disfmarker} people will want it in there .
Professor A: Yeah . If it gets {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: OK , so maybe the question is notating it . Yeah ?
Professor A: Yeah {disfmarker} i Right . If {disfmarker} if it gets in the way of what somebody is doing with it then you might wanna have some method which will allow you to block it , but you {disfmarker} it 's real data . You don't wanna b but you don't {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: OK , well {disfmarker}
Professor A: If s you know , if there 's a little bit of noise out there , and somebody is {disfmarker} is talking about something they 're doing , that 's part of what we accept as part of a real meeting , even {disfmarker} And we have the f uh {disfmarker} the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the fan and the {disfmarker} in the projector up there , and , uh , this is {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} this is actual stuff that we {disfmarker} we wanna work with .
Postdoc F: Well this is in very interesting
Professor A: So .
Postdoc F: because i it basically has a i it shows very clearly the contrast between , uh , speech recognition research and discourse research because in {disfmarker} in discourse and linguistic research , what counts is what 's communit communicative .
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: And {disfmarker} breath , you know , everyone breathes , they breathe all the time . And once in a while breath is communicative , but r very rarely . OK , so now , I had a discussion with Chuck about the data structure
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: and the idea is that the transcripts will {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} get stored as a master there 'll be a master transcript which has in it everything that 's needed for both of these uses .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: And the one that 's used for speech recognition will be processed via scripts . You know , like , Don 's been writing scripts
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: and {disfmarker} and , uh , to process it for the speech recognition side . Discourse side will {vocalsound} have this {disfmarker} this side over he the {disfmarker} we we 'll have a s ch Sorry , not being very fluent here . But , um , this {disfmarker} the discourse side will have a script which will stri strip away the things which are non - communicative . OK . So then the {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} let 's {disfmarker} let 's think about the practicalities of how we get to that master copy with reference to breaths . So what I would {disfmarker} r r what I would wonder is would it be possible to encode those automatically ? Could we get a breath detector ?
Grad B: Oh , just to save the transcribers time .
Postdoc F: Well , I mean , you just have no idea . I mean , if you 're getting a breath several times every minute ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: and just simply the keystrokes it takes to negotiate , to put the boundaries in , to {disfmarker} to type it in , i it 's just a huge amount of time .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Oops .
Professor A: Wh - what {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc F: And you wanna be sure it 's used , and you wanna be sure it 's done as efficiently as possible , and if it can be done automatically , that would be ideal .
Professor A: what if you put it in but didn't put the boundaries ?
Postdoc F: Well , but {disfmarker}
Professor A: So you just know it 's between these other things ,
Postdoc F: Well , OK . So now there 's {disfmarker} there 's another {disfmarker} another possibility
Professor A: right ?
Postdoc F: which is , um , the time boundaries could mark off words {comment} from nonwords . And that would be extremely time - effective , if that 's sufficient .
Professor A: Yeah I mean I 'm think if it 's too {disfmarker} if it 's too hard for us to annotate the breaths per se , {vocalsound} we are gonna be building up models for these things and these things are somewhat self - aligning , so if {disfmarker} so , {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} i i if we say there is some kind of a thing which we call a " breath " or a " breath - in " or " breath - out " , {vocalsound} the models will learn that sort of thing . Uh , so {disfmarker} but you {disfmarker} but you do want them to point them at some region where {disfmarker} where the breaths really are . So {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: OK . But that would maybe include a pause as well ,
PhD G: Well , there 's a there 's {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: and that wouldn't be a problem to have it , uh , pause plus breath plus laugh plus sneeze ?
Professor A: Yeah , i You know there is {disfmarker} there 's this dynamic tension between {disfmarker} between marking absolutely everything , as you know , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and marking just a little bit and counting on the statistical methods . Basically the more we can mark the better . But if there seems to be a lot of effort for a small amount of reward in some area , and this might be one like this {disfmarker} Although I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'd be interested to h get {disfmarker} get input from Liz and Andreas on this to see if they {disfmarker} Cuz they 've - they 've got lots of experience with the breaths in {disfmarker} in , uh , uh , their transcripts .
Grad B: They have lots of experience with breathing ?
PhD G: I {disfmarker}
Professor A: Actually {disfmarker} Well , {vocalsound} yes they do , but we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we can handle that without them here . But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but , uh , you were gonna say something about {disfmarker}
PhD G: Yeah , I {disfmarker} I think , um , one possible way that we could handle it is that , um , you know , as the transcribers are going through , and if they get a hunk of speech that they 're gonna transcribe , u th they 're gonna transcribe it because there 's words in there or whatnot . If there 's a breath in there , they could transcribe that .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah .
Postdoc F: That 's what they 've been doing . So , within an overlap segment , they {disfmarker} they do this .
PhD G: Right . But {disfmarker} Right . But if there 's a big hunk of speech , let 's say on Morgan 's mike where he 's not talking at all , um , don't {disfmarker} don't worry about that .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD G: So what we 're saying is , there 's no guarantee that , um {disfmarker} So for the chunks that are transcribed , everything 's transcribed . But outside of those boundaries , there could have been stuff that wasn't transcribed . So you just {disfmarker} somebody can't rely on that data and say " that 's perfectly clean data " . Uh {disfmarker} do you see what I 'm saying ?
Postdoc F: Yeah , you 're saying it 's {disfmarker} uncharted territory .
PhD G: So I would say don't tell them to transcribe anything that 's outside of a grouping of words .
Professor A: That sounds like a reasonable {disfmarker} reasonable compromise .
PhD E: Yeah , and that 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that quite co corresponds to the way I {disfmarker} I try to train the speech - nonspeech detector , as I really try to {disfmarker} not to detect those breaths which are not within a speech chunk but with {disfmarker} which are just in {disfmarker} in a silence region .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD E: And they {disfmarker} so they hopefully won't be marked in {disfmarker} in those channel - specific files .
Professor A: u I {disfmarker} I wanted to comment a little more just for clarification about this business about the different purposes .
PhD E: But {disfmarker}
PhD G: Yeah , so {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: See , in a {disfmarker} in a way this is a really key point , that for speech recognition , uh , research , uh , um , e a {disfmarker} it 's not just a minor part . In fact , the {disfmarker} I think I would say the core thing that we 're trying to do is to recognize the actual , meaningful components in the midst of other things that are not meaningful . So it 's critical {disfmarker} it 's not just incidental it 's critical for us to get these other components that are not meaningful . Because that 's what we 're trying to pull the other out of . That 's our problem . If we had nothing {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: Yeah .
Professor A: if we had only linguistically - relevant things {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if we only had changes in the spectrum that were associated with words , with different spectral components , and , uh , we {disfmarker} we didn't have noise , we didn't have convolutional errors , we didn't have extraneous , uh , behaviors , and so forth , and {vocalsound} moving your head and all these sorts of things , then , actually speech recognition i i isn't that bad right now . I mean you can you know it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} the technology 's come along pretty well .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the reason we still complain about it is because is {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when you have more realistic conditions then {disfmarker} then things fall apart .
Postdoc F: OK , fair enough . I guess , um , I {disfmarker} uh , what I was wondering is what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} at what level does the breathing aspect enter into the problem ? Because if it were likely that a PDA would be able to be built which would get rid of the breathing , so it wouldn't even have to be processed at thi at this computational le well , let me see , it 'd have to be computationally processed to get rid of it , but if there were , uh , like likely on the frontier , a good breath extractor then , um , and then you 'd have to {disfmarker}
Professor A: But that 's a research question , you know ? And so {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: Yeah , well , see and that 's what I wouldn't know .
Professor A: that {disfmarker} And we don't either . I mean so {disfmarker} so the thing is it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} right now it 's just raw d it 's just data that we 're collecting , and so {vocalsound} we don't wanna presuppose that people will be able to get rid of particular degradations because that 's actually the research that we 're trying to feed . So , you know , an and maybe {disfmarker} maybe in five years it 'll work really well ,
Postdoc F: OK .
Professor A: and {disfmarker} and it 'll only mess - up ten percent of the time , but then we would still want to account for that ten percent , so .
Postdoc F: I guess there 's another aspect which is that as we 've improved our microphone technique , we have a lot less breath in the {disfmarker} in the more recent , uh , recordings , so it 's {disfmarker} in a way it 's an artifact that there 's so much on the {disfmarker} on the earlier ones .
Professor A: Uh - huh . I see .
PhD G: One of the {disfmarker} um , just to add to this {disfmarker} one of the ways that we will be able to get rid of breath is by having models for them . I mean , that 's what a lot of people do nowadays .
Professor A: Right .
Grad B: Right .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD G: And so in order to build the model you need to have some amount of it marked , so that you know where the boundaries are .
PhD C: Hmm .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD G: So {disfmarker} I mean , I don't think we need to worry a lot about breaths that are happening outside of a , you know , conversation . We don't have to go and search for them to {disfmarker} to mark them at all , but , I mean , if they 're there while they 're transcribing some hunk of words , I 'd say put them in if possible .
Postdoc F: OK , and it 's also the fact that they differ a lot from one channel to the other because of the way the microphone 's adjusted .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: OK .
Professor A: Should we do the digits ?
Grad B: Yep . OK .
PhD C: OK .
Grad D: Mmm . Alright . | |
doc_107 | Project Manager: Okay . Everybody ready ?
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh I think the first thing we do is introduce ourselves
Marketing: I think so .
Project Manager: and everybody's name and what your function is ?
Marketing: Yeah , that's a good plan .
Project Manager: So maybe we start with you ?
User Interface: Okay . Yeah , my name is Francina . And I'm uh an user interface {disfmarker} my role is uh {disfmarker} the main responsibility is user interface .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And my role is to design uh a television remote control .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay .
Marketing: And I'm a marketing person . I wanna figure out how to sell them .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . And your name is ?
Marketing: My name is Eileen .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Uh I'm Jeanne-Oui . Um uh my role is industrial designer and my responsibilities are uh uh um deal with the {vocalsound} technical-functional designs and specifications of user interface and dealing with user interface design .
Project Manager: Very good . And as you already know I am Betty . I am the project manager for today . So why don't we look at the presentation {vocalsound} to see what we really are supposed to do . {vocalsound} Um .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes y opening , acquaintance , tool training {disfmarker} well , the tools are , I think , we already {disfmarker} I guess the tool is really our {disfmarker} the computer , as far as I can see .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Uh we get ins each of us will get instructions and we'll take it from there . Project plan , that falls under the same heading pretty much . Um , I don't think we have any great discussion at this point .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: Um . Here is what this thing should be . This thing we are gonna um uh design is a new remote control . Uh should be original {vocalsound} , trendy , and , of course , user friendly .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So maybe you wanna make some notes of that .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: All right . {vocalsound} Here is what the functional design is supposed to achieve . Um . That is it's gonna be individual work and then at the meeting we'll discuss what uh we have come up with . The same goes for the conceptual design , there will be individual work whic and then discussion afterwards . Detailed design , same thing basically .
Marketing: Mm 'kay so {disfmarker} Three different types of design that we're gonna be concerned with okay .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Functional , conception and detailed .
Project Manager: I can't write with this thing . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Maybe we should redesign it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: After we've finished the remote control we'll get to that .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , okay . All right ? Then , tool training try out the white board , participant can draw their favourite animal . Does anybody want to go and see how the white board works ? So that in case we have to , in the next meeting , present something on the white board . You wanna go Eileen and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay , I'll see what I can do .
Project Manager: Whether you {disfmarker} without hanging yourself . {vocalsound}
Marketing: See if I r See if I remember how to draw a kitty cat or a rabbit or something . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And remember you have to press so it works .
Marketing: So that it will record okay .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Um uh um traditional kitty cat .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fat , a fat cat . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I've a very fat cat .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} And it likes to sit like that .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: And you're Francine , right ? Would you like s like just to see um how it feels , so that you have a little idea ?
User Interface: Yes , I'm Francina . Yes , sure . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: In {disfmarker}
Marketing: Am I supposed to wipe off that or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No , no . No , that's okay .
User Interface: No , Okay .
Marketing: okay .
Project Manager: I don't know , we'll get to that later .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: What should I draw ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Snake .
User Interface: I'm going to draw a snake . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: How does it look like ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh , okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: I hope the kitty cat is hungry 'cause I don't like snakes . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Here's the project finance uh which , of course , we all have to think about when we design this thing . Um selling price is supposed to be twenty five Euro . Uh profit aim for the company is fifty million Euro ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: the market range unlimited meaning international
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: and the production cost should not exceed {disfmarker} hopefully should be less than twelve fifty Euro .
Marketing: Mm 'kay that should keep everybody on their toes and challenged .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Profit . Um is fifty mm .
Project Manager: So these are all things , of course , to remember with the budget and when you design {vocalsound} to materials , cost , etcetera . Now , uh the discussion I guess is um does anyone of you have experience with remote control ?
Marketing: Oops .
Project Manager: I exp I s 'cause we we use 'em {disfmarker} we use 'em , right , everyday .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , of course , using remote control . Yeah .
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: And um now having used a remote control for years does anybody already have like an idea like things you didn't like with it , things you would like to change , things you would like to improve with this thing ye any first ideas ? Would you like it to be smaller , bigger ,
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Project Manager: have more have more buttons on it or maybe clearly {disfmarker} better marked buttons , you know , things like that ?
User Interface: Yeah , I {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yes , I I feel that all the remote should be very compact .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Small , right . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah , those which we get here nowadays it's very long .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And um and it should have multi-purpose . Like uh the remote control which we use for T_V_ , it shou uh it should be used f uh for some other purpose also , like controlling the uh temperature inside the house or for air-conditioners , or for heating system .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Audio player . Oh . Okay .
Project Manager: So it should be a multi-functional uh gadget that would um control all your household uh uh machines basically .
User Interface: Yes , exactly Yes .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Divides us {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . Exactly .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} At um twelve fifty Euros per {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well .
Marketing: Well who knows if we get a really good designer maybe we can do that .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} We certainly can try to {disfmarker} I agree with her that to market something successfully it should do some more things .
Project Manager: It should be something new {disfmarker} it should be s it it should do something different than than just what we have .
Marketing: That's right .
Project Manager: Now , of course , the other thing to think there is maybe the design .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , of course .
User Interface: Yeah , design should be , yeah {disfmarker} it should be different . All the {disfmarker} almost all the remotes {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Like trendy no like f for earlier we saw maybe it should be something trendy you know . Maybe it should {disfmarker} different colours or materials or you know .
User Interface: Yes , exactly .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , maybe ten {disfmarker} I do yeah , colours
User Interface: Are different shapes .
Industrial Designer: and al shapes also . Yeah .
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: Um so yeah shapes right , you know , like kidney shape feels better in your hand or something , you know .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah of course yeah .
Marketing: Yeah okay , friendly shape , that would help .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: I think another thing that would help is um if it beeps when you clap ,
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: because I think one of the big things that happens is people lose them . They can't find it .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That is true ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: because they put a newspaper or they put it behind a plant or , we you know , whatever .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And and they {disfmarker} suddenly the phone rings and they want to turn the T_V_ off and they say , where the hell is my {vocalsound} my remote control yeah ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well or yeah or if it's really , if it's really in a dark spot that it gives out a a sound or a signal .
Marketing: So some {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , some beep or something like that ,
Project Manager: Yeah . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Or a b
Marketing: Uh so , so it's really the beep or , or a light should blink .
Industrial Designer: so that we can go {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So if lost {disfmarker} If lost uh signal with b throw signal , you know .
User Interface: Should ha
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: A fluorescent signal , yeah .
Marketing: Mm 'kay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , maybe it should have a light so that we can , we can just recognise where it is .
Project Manager: Exactly , I mean just {vocalsound} that's what I'm saying .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah . May not be beep .
Project Manager: I'm just saying throw signal meaning just whether it's a beep or whether a light or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Beep or uh it's a light , maybe it's a light .
Marketing: And do you think a good c c um clue for that is that it would respond to a clap or it would respond to your voice or it would respond {disfmarker} what what should you have to do to make it beep or blink ?
Project Manager: Okay , my {disfmarker} my idea is maybe that the minute it's really hidden , in in other words if it's like in a dark spot , uh meaning you know like a newspaper is on top , a sweater is on top or it it's behind a plant , at that moment it's it's like , it's like um , what you call it {disfmarker} a light s sensors , you know ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: In in that moment it has a sensor , i it it gets a certain darkness , it ge has a sensor and it gives out a signal whether that be a light signal or a beep ,
Marketing: Okay so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: I mean , that we can discuss that later , you know .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , probably {disfmarker} yeah , probably it's a {disfmarker} yeah , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . And uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: So the light sensor would activate the signal .
Project Manager: That's right . You know there would be {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: right you have to have some kind of sensor and I I think uh voice or clapping it's not specific enough . Uh I know there are the lamps and stuff , you know , you can clap on and off ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: but I think they only work to certain degree and {disfmarker}
Marketing: But it could be someplace really obvious and you still wouldn't be able to find it .
Project Manager: What with {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , of course , that didn't {disfmarker}
User Interface: Then , in that case {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well , because you're s because you're silly . Because people are silly .
Industrial Designer: I i we can't do it .
Project Manager: Oh yeah well , but then those people {disfmarker} we can't help everybody . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I mean it could be on {disfmarker} well , i if it were like on top of your bookcase and you usually kept it on the coffee table
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: um {vocalsound} ,
Project Manager: Okay we have uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: you know , well {disfmarker} maybe we have to move along , okay .
Project Manager: yeah , we have to move along , but I think we have some good good points to start with here .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , good point .
Project Manager: Okay , the next meeting will be in thirty minutes . I think you all {disfmarker} did you get uh notices on your computer for this ? Okay so well , you got the notice um
Industrial Designer: Me yeah .
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: {disfmarker} uh . The working design , I guess that's the function I_D_ {disfmarker} uh who is this ? The industrial designer {disfmarker} That's you .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , it's functional de yeah , exactly , technical .
Project Manager: Okay . So , we looking for a working design when we come back .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh working design , yeah , it's it's uh mainly technical-functional design .
Project Manager: Then {disfmarker} And then the technical funct you are the technical function ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , functional design ,
Project Manager: so so you are the working design .
Industrial Designer: and you {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So you have a working design and then a functional design .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: And the marketing manager is coming up with some user requirement specification , like friendliness , and what we just discussed in general . That would be your idea . And , of course , price . That it , that it , that the price is a good price . I mean , the price is given , but , that was {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm . We have to justify that price by having sufficient features to make it sell at that price .
Project Manager: That's right . That's right .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And , you know , specifi you you will get specific um instructions for that . I think that's the end of the show . Yeah . So um {vocalsound} we have {disfmarker} well , we have a twen two two two three minutes . Um any questions at this point ? Or uh suggestions ?
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: I think {disfmarker} basically basically you will get instructions to work with and if you have any questions uh , uh I guess , you can uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay , I think I have enough to think about 'til our next meeting .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , even I have .
Marketing: How about you people ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , even I have , I think , yeah .
Marketing: Really ? Okay . 'Kay .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , so let's see .
Marketing: Alright , well uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Then uh we see you in about thirty minutes . And see what we can come up with .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Okay , very good .
Project Manager: Okay ?
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . | |
doc_108 | Project Manager: Uh fourth meeting . {vocalsound}
User Interface: We have to do what ?
Project Manager: Some extra deciding .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} W what ? Alri alright . We'll see .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh .
Project Manager: {gap} I'll show you the notes again . Very interesting .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well you'll you two will uh present us your prototype .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Then um {disfmarker} I guess that's your bit ? I I didn't s see anything about it ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: so {vocalsound} I already uh thought you uh you were {gap} to do that .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So the you're uh {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'll show you how we're going to do with financing this uh design .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's important too . Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And then we'll evaluate , after after we have redesigned it .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Bit late . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Because uh well we'll see about the costs . Um we'll uh evaluate our p our uh production and then uh we can close .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: Well the finance uh we'll do later , so um firstly uh {vocalsound} I'll show you the notes . {vocalsound} I don't think it's very interesting . {vocalsound}
User Interface: I think it is .
Project Manager: Oh nei . Uh no . {vocalsound} Alright . This is copy paste . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: From me of course , yeah .
Project Manager: Of course . You had some very strange layout .
Industrial Designer: Well from us all , yeah , from all of us . Yeah . {vocalsound} It's a nice chorus , yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We ge we went through the agenda ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and well we had some uh some presentations from you three . And uh I summarised what you said to us . So uh I don't think it's very interesting and go through it again .
Industrial Designer: Repeat it yeah . Alright .
Project Manager: So uh {disfmarker} This is what we decided . It's also copy paste from what we made together . So we still know that .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: And then uh we can we can uh use the time better . Well uh next you two will uh present uh the pot prototype for us .
Industrial Designer: Alright , we both uh will ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Or one of us will ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Alright .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: No you go and I'll uh supplement you .
Industrial Designer: Alright . If I make mistakes uh you'll uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Correct . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right . Uh well this is our design .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh it's pretty uh much uh like uh Mike draw uh drew uh the in the during the last meeting . With uh the different uh perspectives of it . Uh we'll begin uh with the front . We have of course uh the the round shape uh the round uh basic shape . Um with uh the upper part being the front . Th So there's this part um {vocalsound} which is made of hard plastic , the front . And uh we're we're using different colours . Of course for the launch we use the basic ugly colours ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and later we'll put out uh more interesting covers with different patterns and pictures and everything .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: But basically , different colours , bright colours not black , too dark . Fancy colours . {vocalsound} Um then we have uh the lower part {vocalsound} of the of the device . Uh which is of course um part of the back actually , because it's also titanium . You can see it also on the on the on the side view , that only this part is the front , and the rest of it , the under uh the under side uh of it , yeah , the back side and the lower part of the front is of course titanium made of titanium , and has the titanium colour of course , the look . Um then we have uh on back on the front uh the logo in the upper corner ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: uh which is uh made uh which is also part of the back , part of the titanium uh titanium part .
User Interface: Yeah , it's a double R_ , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah ?
User Interface: It's a double R_ .
Industrial Designer: It's a double R_ . Yeah the logo {disfmarker}
User Interface: But {vocalsound} it's very difficult to to draw that in {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , alright .
Industrial Designer: Uh uh it's difficult to draw so small , but it's our double R_ uh logo is in there .
Project Manager: Okay . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um so that's the logo in the upper lef uh right corner . Then we have the buttons . Uh it's difficult to draw again the little oval or round {disfmarker} I think oval will be better for the for the d for the different uh channel buttons .
User Interface: Oval yeah .
Project Manager: Alright .
Industrial Designer: So {gap} uh oval , n those are here . And then we have the m The m
User Interface: Channel up and volume ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah the the con the the the , yeah , the t volume and the channel controls uh in the middle here . Um um with kind of arrow shapes , which makes it also a bit more exciting than basic round or um uh {vocalsound} uh square buttons . And also here are the two uh buttons we agreed on . We have the Okay button . Oh nei we uh the Okay button's here in the middle of the of the operators , of the channel and uh volume um changers .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And then we've here the Menu button and the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Alright .
User Interface: Menu for the L_C_D_ screen .
Industrial Designer: And the video button . The {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm right .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . And of course this low part , this is the L_C_D_ screen .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: Uh this is what we made of it . You can make uh suggestions uh if you want .
Project Manager: Well if I look at it , the side the side view {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , at the back {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Maybe we maybe we should finish first uh our talk
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and then you can add suggestions .
Project Manager: Oh yeah alright . Yeah {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Maybe I I don't want to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I don't want to suppress you but n I'll uh finish this uh quick .
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Um okay I've had everything I guess on the front ?
User Interface: No the back . With the logo and our uh l uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah the back . Yeah . {vocalsound} We thought about {disfmarker} Yeah , uh the back is of course totally titanium . {vocalsound} And we thought about the logo big in the middle .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Just so again the double R_ . We have then the logo on front and on the back .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Maybe that's too much
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: but you have to say uh say that if you think that way .
User Interface: No I don't think {disfmarker} And the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And the company slogan , we thought in a kind of arc shape uh above the logo .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: That's basically what we were thinking about ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: W
User Interface: And about the side view um {disfmarker} This the front won't be as thick ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but again th the the drawing technique makes it very difficult to to really uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well I see , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh and uh before I forget . Yeah the the voice , of course ,
Project Manager: Well . Yeah I see it .
Industrial Designer: the voice recorder is uh at the bottom .
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: And you can record it uh using , yeah , the the the back of the f w device .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: When I look at uh when I look at this side view , I think w when I have that in my hand , it's terrible .
User Interface: Well , it won't be visible . Mm ?
Project Manager: If if you look if if this this is thick , and this is thin , th th then it that it lies over your hands . But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Why ? {vocalsound} Well it fits uh it it it it fits the hand , {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: mean uh the the the the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well what what what I what I agree is that when uh when um you have such of uh an arc in the middle , so that the the a the ends and the fronts is a bit thicker , so th then it falls over your hands .
Marketing: Yeah , I agree .
User Interface: {gap} If y {vocalsound} If you handle a remote , you you usually don't have your hand straight like this .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} In the middle in the {disfmarker}
User Interface: You you have it a bit uh {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: It depends on the size . If it's kinda small , this is is great . But if it's it's larger , then you want to grab it .
Project Manager: And how large is it ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , that's the question .
Industrial Designer: That's the question .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh well {disfmarker} Yeah . H What do you suggest I mean we do ? {gap} This was Mike's prototype ,
Project Manager: Well uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and y you seemed to agreed on it .
Project Manager: Well the sides I haven't seen yet , uh {gap} ?
Industrial Designer: But now you have a totally different {gap} .
User Interface: Well , they lay there all the time .
Industrial Designer: The size ? Yeah well the size doesn't really matter w I mean {disfmarker}
Project Manager: They the the the the the side view ,
Industrial Designer: Side ? Uh oh the side ?
Project Manager: we didn't uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: W we we he drew the s the side ,
User Interface: Yeah yeah .
Industrial Designer: but you d you weren't paying attention as usual .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well any case , we'll discuss it now . Uh I think uh this is a pretty good uh good idea {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah , I agree with the L_C_D_ screen . You have it in your palm like this , and you can watch uh watch the screen . And if you have it li in the middle , your hand might be over it .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But you you hold it like this .
User Interface: Yeah you you don't you don't grab it ,
Industrial Designer: You're not holding it like this or something .
User Interface: you you {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You , yeah , y How do you call it ? Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well y y y you don't have it like this .
Project Manager: No no no .
Industrial Designer: You have it more like this .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} You you you're using buttons this way , or if you're right-handed , this way .
Marketing: Like you're holding your telephone .
Project Manager: Yep .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So you {disfmarker} Yeah . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Because if you have a screen on it , you wanna look at your screen .
User Interface: Hmm . That way , it it falls into your hand . I think . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: And maybe you can you can grab it a bit higher ,
Marketing: Yeah , I agree on this .
Industrial Designer: so {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No , I don't think so . That's not uh the point {disfmarker}
User Interface: No but but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well the the {disfmarker} Well that's a reason to to to put the L_C_D_ screen uh of course on the upper side , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well f for as far as I can see , three of us agree
Project Manager: Yeah well
User Interface: and only Nils {disfmarker}
Project Manager: uh I think uh if you t if you three uh agree then then that's it .
User Interface: But you're the Project Manager , you can make the hard decisions . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes . So uh I c I c
Industrial Designer: If necessary .
Project Manager: Well , we'll we we'll do it like this .
Industrial Designer: But uh are d Can you live with it ? Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Alright , if you think that that's the way it should {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: Y Yeah , y y y y you said it was totally uh unusable .
Project Manager: No {disfmarker} No ,
Industrial Designer: But do you
Project Manager: when I I my personal taste is that I want it to fall over my hands with a thick {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} In the market uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But d you don't think this is completely unusable I guess . I think .
Project Manager: No not totally .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Not totally , well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} For me , I I wouldn't buy it . Let's say it like that .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but of course y you are also human . We have to take uh {vocalsound} every everyone into account . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: And you might be uh {disfmarker} You might be target customer .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yes but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well uh who who else thinks like you ?
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: We don't know .
Project Manager: Yeah , we don't know ,
Industrial Designer: Maybe a thousand people ,
Project Manager: but that's uh that's that's that's more market research .
Industrial Designer: or a million people .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So {vocalsound} let it be like this at uh at this moment .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Let it be .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay ?
Industrial Designer: Alright . So that's that .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh any other suggestions ?
Project Manager: No , I think it's great .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: But what about the redesigning ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Comes to that later .
User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um you . Uh c You can uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Walter . {vocalsound} You can do the evaluation uh criteria on this ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You're very personal again .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Alright . Great .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's more useful than just {vocalsound} speaking .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Well , this is just a short intro .
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: I'm going to do uh the ev evaluation . That's gonna be done at the end of seven point skill criteria .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So I made a {disfmarker} I made a few questions on the hand of uh uh the impor most important requirements and trends .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: And we have to look if our uh if our device uh is working correctly . Well , I put some questions in a Word file . See if I can find them . Uh uh uh uh mm .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Marketing: Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: I uh think you have all seen uh this kind of evaluation , so uh I don't have to explain it . Uh the first question is , uh is the device good-looking ? Because normal p uh most people thought that um earlier devices were ugly ugly . Seventy five percent of them . So what do we think ?
Industrial Designer: Well d we designed it , so of course we are very {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah , we're we're not quite uh objective about this .
Marketing: Yeah {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well we designed it to be good-looking .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: No , I know , but {vocalsound} I have to uh evaluate it . So I have to take this questionnaire .
Project Manager: To the customers ?
Industrial Designer: So and we ha we have answer now ?
Project Manager: To potential customers who have to take this questionnaire ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {gap}
Marketing: Yeah {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , but I can't can s
Project Manager: Nei . Oh no . I know , I know , I know .
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: But um {disfmarker} Well {vocalsound} we can go , uh because of the time , uh pretty quick through this . Uh do we find it good-looking ? Well we think so . Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . We designed it to be good-looking , so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} Yeah , I think it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , but uh , you know {disfmarker} We dis we di {vocalsound} we designed it to be perfect .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So {vocalsound} {disfmarker} But we have to be critic critical about it . And I have to uh take all these points and get a average at the end . So we {vocalsound} we know where we stand .
Project Manager: Well , one .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: 'Cause th there are some things we might have uh bi might have forgotten .
Project Manager: Well so it's point four . Easy to find t
Industrial Designer: Well l well let's start with the beginning , just one by one . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Right , so {disfmarker} Right . Uh is it good-looking ?
Industrial Designer: Well , I guess uh I think uh {vocalsound} it's uh it's it's um pointed towards the youth of course , uh if you look at the design and and the colours and everything . {gap}
Project Manager: Two . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That was our target audience of course . But it's also not completely um {vocalsound} uh u unacceptable for older people I guess . Uh it's it's not f a device that {disfmarker}
Marketing: The titanium might be uh f for older people .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's that's uh for older people , it's it's more that classical look . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: It you put uh put a black front on it or something .
User Interface: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Uh no . {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker} Yeah they like black of course , but I think they'll uh they they think uh the the titanium look of it is also {disfmarker} Uh I think it's also good for them , so I think we both uh have uh consider considered uh the youth and also a bit older people . So I think it's very good-looking
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: and not only for youth uh young people .
User Interface: I think we shouldn't discuss any points points that long , because I don't know how how many points there are but uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No . I totally agree .
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , the fourteen yeah .
Project Manager: We we have to get get on , go through this .
Marketing: Right , a number please .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Is it easy to t change channels ? Yeah well I think so .
Marketing: So the last one is seven .
User Interface: Um , no it's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Easy to change channels ?
Project Manager: No , not false . It's one .
Marketing: Oh , sorry .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , right .
Project Manager: Well uh two ? Y Well we have to go through it {gap} .
Marketing: Change channels ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I think it's uh as easy as uh can be made . Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: So I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah . You {disfmarker} How can you make it any easier ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} With two huge buttons .
Marketing: The power , channel and volume buttons are easy accessible ?
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , huge is a {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: Two .
Marketing: Two ? Alright . The uh device is easy to find if you lose it ?
Project Manager: Well , no . We didn't implement anything about that . {gap}
Industrial Designer: D we d we don't we don't have uh that s
User Interface: Well it's easier to find than a a normal black one or something ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well six then . {vocalsound}
User Interface: because of the colour . But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Six ? Right .
Industrial Designer: Well we don't have the device that beeps uh when you lost it or so ,
Project Manager: Are the functions easy to learn ?
Industrial Designer: but um um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well w I we do want we have a l f f less of an {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap} We have so few functions , so {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , I agree .
Project Manager: And the device R_S_I_ sensitive ?
User Interface: Well , I should {disfmarker} I think two ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: because {vocalsound} the voice recorder is n not self learning . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Ah .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: Alright . Two ?
Industrial Designer: Mm ?
Project Manager: Yeah , but just do some {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} We we {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I th I th I think this is too time consuming .
Industrial Designer: Are we take too much time ?
Project Manager: Uh not not towards you ,
Marketing: Yeah , I agree .
Project Manager: but towards this all .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: Th this is {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: We you have to put it to the customers .
Marketing: Right , R_ R_S_I_ sensitive ? {vocalsound} R_S_I_ sensitive ?
Project Manager: Uh well well a bit , so four .
Marketing: Four . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , very much . One .
Project Manager: One . And features included also one . And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} One .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh those uh nine uh is the fancy-looking . Uh we still think so .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Device fancy feeling .
Industrial Designer: And I think fancy-feeling too ,
Project Manager: Yeah , cool man .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: because of the titanium back . Yeah .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Are there enough technology ? Yeah well also we have two .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , that's great .
Project Manager: Is the device easy to use ?
User Interface: The {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes we have {vocalsound} not many buttons .
Industrial Designer: So well maybe two
Project Manager: Two , three .
User Interface: Two {vocalsound} two .
Industrial Designer: because of the voice recorder .
Marketing: Well , with the uh {disfmarker} Three .
Project Manager: Are the trends about fruit and vegetables implemented ?
User Interface: T
Industrial Designer: F
Project Manager: Well in our covers , in our fronts .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So yes , one .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . One or two . Yeah .
User Interface: One or two , another two .
Marketing: Nah f four I think .
Industrial Designer: Four ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} If you look at this {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well , it doesn't really resemble any fruit , uh that's true .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But but we have the the the the the sparkly fruity colours of course .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: Oh okay . Okay {gap} .
User Interface: Well three .
Marketing: Three , alright .
Industrial Designer: And you can also have {gap} front with uh with fruit on it . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , that's true .
Project Manager: Is the material attractive ?
Marketing: But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm . Yeah .
Project Manager: Well the titanium is strong , and uh the rest f uh the buttons feel soft . So I would say at least two .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: This is the last meeting ?
Project Manager: Yes , but we we have to design much more ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: The average will uh come later .
Project Manager: because there was some irritating account manager coming to me . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I knew things uh were going uh too smoothly .
Project Manager: Oh . Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: There had to be some kind of trouble along the way .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes . Well , look at the costs at this point .
Industrial Designer: My god .
Project Manager: I had to fit it in .
Marketing: It has to go to twelve , right ?
Project Manager: I twelve and a half .
Marketing: Twelve and a half .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Well what costs a lot ? The sample spea costs four .
Industrial Designer: The what ?
Project Manager: The sample speaker ,
Industrial Designer: The {disfmarker}
Marketing: Out .
Project Manager: the s sensor .
Marketing: That's easy . Kick it out .
Project Manager: Kick it out .
User Interface: The what ?
Project Manager: We have to go to twelve and a half .
Marketing: Yeah . The speaker .
Project Manager: The speaker costs far , by far the most .
User Interface: Oh .
Industrial Designer: Yeah w tha that's uh that's a bit an optional option .
Marketing: That's some wrong info , man . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It it isn't worth it .
Industrial Designer: No . No , d th No .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: We could make two different versions , one with and one without .
Marketing: It's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But for this {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's just extra . Kick it out .
Project Manager: So , zero .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Then we go to fourteen point six .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Well the titanium I don't want to lose actually .
Marketing: What more ?
Industrial Designer: No .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Batteries are uh quite {disfmarker}
Project Manager: L_C_ three ? Yeah hand dynamo ? Y t come on ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh no , no no no .
Project Manager: w a remote control has a battery .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: N Uh well we have a bit of a problem I think .
User Interface: Well well why why why should we use a advanced chip ?
Industrial Designer: Because uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well be for the L_C_D_ uh you had said .
Industrial Designer: {gap} the L_C_D_ screen . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah ?
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: Can't we do that with a regular chip ?
Industrial Designer: No .
User Interface: Why not ?
Industrial Designer: Because uh that uh y {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well what what's the difference between simple and regular ?
Industrial Designer: because my information says it .
Project Manager: What's the difference between a simple and a regular chip ?
Industrial Designer: Huh ?
User Interface: Yeah . Regular is normal .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: And simple ?
Industrial Designer: Uh well yeah I I read something about it , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Simple .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Nothing .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Elementary .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well {gap} ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah ,
Project Manager: Your part .
Industrial Designer: I I read something about it , but it wasn't very clear . I d I didn't in include it in my report .
Project Manager: What happens if we do {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Single {disfmarker} Well you have to use a chip . So {disfmarker} Well you have to use the advanced chip , if you have the L_C_D_ screen .
Project Manager: How much do we win ? One .
User Interface: We we we {disfmarker} Why ?
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: We have very little options furthermore , for the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But if you have a regular chip , you can't have the L_C_D_ screen .
User Interface: Uh well we have to put that in .
Marketing: Yeah , we need to have the {vocalsound} the L_C_D_ screen .
Industrial Designer: That that's a fact . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well , we could say , well this special colour , that isn't that that isn't there ,
Marketing: No {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: because the the fronts they will buy it . The special colour .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but it's only one half .
Marketing: Yeah , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Nah .
Industrial Designer: Uh it d it doesn't {disfmarker}
Marketing: No , that's n It's not relevant .
Project Manager: Yeah ,
User Interface: Yeah , you must change the chip uh back .
Project Manager: then you s then you only have one half left .
User Interface: You must change the chip back , Nils .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh yeah .
Industrial Designer: But we d Then we have to lose the L_C_D_ screen .
Marketing: No , {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Then the whole concept is uh
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I know but that's what my information says . I di I didn't uh put uh the advanced chip in there for fun . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Hmm . {vocalsound} No {vocalsound} we oh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: You {disfmarker} You can make you can make it cheaper .
Industrial Designer: You have to use it .
Marketing: But if you don't sell
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: You you we have an advanced chip-on-print ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and we have an L_C_ display . I think that's a bit double .
Project Manager: Yeah ? No , {vocalsound}
User Interface: Y we don't need both .
Project Manager: the advanced chip is needed to have an L_C_D_ display .
Industrial Designer: For the L_C_D_ screen . Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Says {gap} .
Project Manager: Says , his {disfmarker} Uh that was in the second meeting , I think .
Industrial Designer: Well uh and what do they mean with curves uh again ? Because we you have uncurved {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well I I did single curve to {disfmarker} Well you said s double curved ,
User Interface: I ?
Project Manager: uh he ,
User Interface: {gap} ?
Project Manager: because uh I thought it's a b a bit cheaper already .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: We can also make it flat .
Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap} No
Industrial Designer: But what what did what do n
Marketing: no no no .
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Sorry , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} What do they mean with the curves ?
Project Manager: Curved ?
Industrial Designer: Is th Is this a curve ?
Project Manager: Yes , that's curved .
Industrial Designer: One curve ?
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , this is actually two curves , yeah .
Project Manager: No , it's one curve .
Industrial Designer: It's how you {disfmarker} It's how you look at it .
User Interface: {vocalsound} One curve . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: One curve , simple .
Industrial Designer: Well then we have a huge problem I think .
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: W t we can never get uh below the twelve and a half .
Project Manager: We have a big financial problem .
User Interface: Well we make it more expensive to buy .
Project Manager: Well , then we have two dollars less profit . Come on , if we if we if we make this fifty million , they won't hesitate to uh congratulate us , so uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: If if you make people brand-aware , they are willing to pay more . But {disfmarker} Because we we use a brand at the front and uh I dun at the back . If you have uh lots of uh marketing people might buy .
Industrial Designer: But uh I {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah or we could replace it {disfmarker}
Marketing: If you if you make it cool to have {disfmarker}
Project Manager: By the way , we also have this one .
Marketing: Oh , that's just great .
Project Manager: Oh , costs nothing . That's nice . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh , alright . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Hey but uh I think you'll agree that uh that we that now we have this uh screen , it's it's very uh not practical to ha to consider this after we have designed the entire thing .
Project Manager: Plastic is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yes , but I just got it .
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well that's pretty uh l
User Interface: Why why don't we replace the titanium with uh plastic coloured titanium ,
Marketing: That is pretty stupid . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: N not very practical . {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: uh titanium-coloured plastic ?
Project Manager: Who ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You want to dump the titanium ?
User Interface: Yeah well if we uh we we have to get cheaper .
Project Manager: And make all plastic , then we ha then we're there .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But I'm n I don't agree .
User Interface: But then we we've got to uh run through the eval evaluation process again .
Industrial Designer: I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Th then you have a ugly , stupid , l ugly looking , dumb remote that that no-one would buy .
User Interface: Ah no no .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's not ugly looking . The looks remain the same .
Project Manager: No , I don't think so .
User Interface: Well , I do think so .
Industrial Designer: I think the titanium just uh provided the the tough look and the and the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Y
Project Manager: Yes . And the feel ,
User Interface: {gap} feel .
Project Manager: and th that it is strong , and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And also the the older people will like it because of that . And because i
Marketing: Yeah , I agree .
Industrial Designer: Alright it's not our target audience , but it's it's useful if it's uh important for old people .
Project Manager: We still {vocalsound} we had to focus to get more people from the younger group ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: but not lose the one {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I think the titanium is very important .
User Interface: Yeah alright but then we we won't get there .
Industrial Designer: Yeah we have a problem , yeah . W But you can better , yeah , dump the L_C_D_ screen then .
User Interface: We can dump the special colour . We l we use plastic . And plastic is already in colour I think .
Marketing: I don't think you should dump the L_C_D_ screen .
Industrial Designer: Well what else ?
User Interface: No , nothing .
Industrial Designer: W I mean uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Or you shou {vocalsound} It's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Amen .
Marketing: Or change the titanium or dump the L_C_D_ screen . But I think you could better change uh titanium to hard a hard kind of plastic looking like titanium than lose the L_C_D_ screen .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Because you have lots of functions {vocalsound} in it too .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , well yeah . Alright .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Why can't I {disfmarker}
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I agree with that . So we u we use uh {disfmarker} Unfortunately . Um . Titanium-coloured plastic .
Project Manager: I'll put in the report we that we think that fourteen point one is the l m lowest price you can make a remote for that's trendy d these days .
Marketing: Yeah , I agree .
Industrial Designer: So titanium-coloured plastic for the back .
Project Manager: I I'll talk to the managers . {vocalsound}
User Interface: No no no no . W Titanium stays there .
Project Manager: Titanium , I thi I think this this is this is e really good re remote . But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah this is good ,
Marketing: Osl {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but it it's not good enough . {vocalsound} So we have to use the ditch the titanium , I'm afraid .
Project Manager: Ah those {gap} those account managers , what do th d what do they know ?
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Come on . Riot . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: What do we {disfmarker} Well what do we know ? All we want is a is a fancy design but we don't really consider the costs . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes , yes .
User Interface: No because we did not know anything about it .
Project Manager: One and a half Euros . Hmm ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah al alright , yeah .
Marketing: If you don't have the money , you can't make it .
Industrial Designer: But we have to deal with it now . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: So s If you don't have the money , you can't make it . So this is too expensive .
Project Manager: So ?
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: So we have to make it cheaper .
Industrial Designer: Titanium gone and add plastic .
User Interface: Yeah , but then we've got money left .
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: And on plastic times two and then we uh are there ?
Project Manager: Well , no it's just uh all plastic .
Industrial Designer: No {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well alright . Huh .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No yeah well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh six . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's just free , man .
Industrial Designer: A lot of plastic , yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Four . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No two for the to make it clear .
Project Manager: But then we can add the special colour ? As we have money over uh left . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: And we still have money left .
User Interface: Yeah . W
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What do we want , guys ?
Industrial Designer: I want gold plating .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No no um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah right . I want chrome . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well I think uh the case is double curved then .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: Because you y have that curve
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We have we have to uh fill {disfmarker}
User Interface: and you have that curve .
Project Manager: Y Oh no . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well , th that that is the problem .
User Interface: Yeah well uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: W we ha {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright .
Industrial Designer: No no no , but th that's not f um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Safe .
User Interface: Well y we have curves in all directions .
Industrial Designer: Well you can you can double curve , if you don't have titanium . And that we dropped ,
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} alright .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so it it can be done . {vocalsound} But it's pretty funny . We we do want to reach twelve point five . But it isn't bad to to to stay at eleven .
Project Manager: Finance ?
User Interface: I mean , this this ain't titanium , but it looks like it .
Project Manager: Well , guys ?
Industrial Designer: We get more salary , if we make if cheaper than twelve uh twelve and a half .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Guys ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We have to dump our titanium ,
Marketing: Shoot .
Project Manager: and we'll hate the managers for that , but now we're going to evaluate our project , of uh project ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Objection .
User Interface: Pro project . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} project . {vocalsound} Well , {vocalsound} satisfaction on for example , are we satisfactory about our creativity ?
Industrial Designer: Well I can't get no satisfaction , but uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I think it's uh {disfmarker} Well in in if we consider the costs then this is the best , yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think it's terrible that we got uh those costs at the last moment .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , me too .
Project Manager: That's really bad . But that that that's that , yeah that's a reason ,
Industrial Designer: Its it's uh ridiculous actually , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: And uh unrealistic .
Project Manager: but also for our creativity . We had um nice design , and then you get the cost , and you had to dump all your creativity .
User Interface: Well we we we used our creativity ,
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: but we just had to adapt it to the costs .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Which isn't very practical ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Nei . Uh no . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but {vocalsound} that's the way .
Project Manager: Well , alright .
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh leadership next .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Terrible . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh teamwork ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Leadership .
User Interface: Leadership ? Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker} It was very democratic . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh yeah well {vocalsound} I think so also .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: I al I I've uh filled that in in a the questionnaires uh each time , so {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well the managers were terrible . So , with their all their useless requirements .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But o alright , the teamwork ?
Industrial Designer: Well uh they they didn't think of the requirements .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's the requirements of the user , uh I guess .
Project Manager: No they said , oh we won't d uh we won't uh use teletext , uh we won't use the D_V_D_ . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah but they base that on on the user specifications .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright , teamwork ? Well great I think .
Marketing: Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Right yeah . {gap}
Marketing: Yeah , think so too .
Project Manager: Uh well what do you , what did you think about the SMARTboard ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It was a complete disaster .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , I don't like it . Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No {disfmarker} Uh it it it uh it is uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: No , that's a SMARTboard , and that's a digital pen .
Project Manager: It's also a It's both the SMARTboards .
User Interface: Or not ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No it's other way around . That's the SMARTboard .
Project Manager: I liked this SMARTboard ,
Industrial Designer: That's the digital panel .
Project Manager: but I hated that one .
Marketing: This this this isn't a SMARTboard , right ?
Project Manager: Well it's both a SMARTboard .
Industrial Designer: That's that's the smart
Marketing: Yeah right . B but you {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh they're both SMARTboards . {vocalsound}
Marketing: This is just a large t large television .
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} A televi Yeah .
Marketing: You u you use the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's both a SMARTboard , but this one is used for a desktop , and that one is used to to draw .
Marketing: Yeah , but you ca This is just a beamer function . And here , on this one , you can uh draw the pictures and things like that . But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well , wi w which one did you like ?
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . Left or right ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: That one .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That one . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} That one isn't accurate . {vocalsound} It just doesn't work .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: But I I think this is meant by the digital pen .
Marketing: You can {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes . Th that is so .
Industrial Designer: Well I didn't use uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , but I think there's a big distinction between the {vocalsound} these th
Project Manager: We're now talking about the SMARTboards .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I don't need a SMARTboard .
User Interface: {gap} Well we we used that one ,
Industrial Designer: Nei It it's much m {vocalsound}
User Interface: and we needed it . I think .
Marketing: Yeah , but {vocalsound} give me a beamer . That's uh that's much uh much cheaper .
User Interface: Yeah alright , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Or install a laptop to a beamer , or have this one standing here in an {disfmarker} I I like it .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Okay , alright .
User Interface: Yeah I like that one , but that one is terrible .
Industrial Designer: But uh you can uh {disfmarker} I I sent it about three times now . Uh {vocalsound} a green uh board with uh chalk is much more useful than that thing .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah , it is .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: The simple uh sch school board .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: I agree .
Project Manager: And uh the digi the digital pen ? Did uh did you like that one ?
Industrial Designer: I I didn't use it .
Marketing: No .
Industrial Designer: I wrote things down but I didn't import it into my laptop .
Project Manager: I used it uh just to check it out , but uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's the {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: You you can't send that to anyone , because you you've scrabbled something on a page for yourself ,
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} It isn't practical . Right .
Project Manager: and then you're going to send it , yeah . Well , no .
Industrial Designer: W {vocalsound} But also y you write things down . And i you can also bring your your your note block .
Marketing: Your notepad . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So what's the what's the th what's the point of importing it into {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's , no , it it's useless .
User Interface: Well I I drew this . {gap} Mm . And I made a mistake . But it it would have been uh useful , if I I could show this on the screen .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah alright . For drawings ,
Project Manager: For drawings , yes .
User Interface: Yeah for drawings .
Industrial Designer: but not for personal notes . I think that's not very {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap} N notes mm .
Industrial Designer: Uh I mean {vocalsound} you can bring your paperwork along and p Well of course if you have a lot of paper {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , it might be useful for drawings . I I agree on that .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: If you've {disfmarker} If you've {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But for notes , it i you you have to put that in a strict {disfmarker} Uh you have to put a name , standard date , and all those things . And notes uh for a meeting are very strict . So if you uh were to write them down for yourself , and then put that in your computer , you still have to type it over to Word .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So it doesn't d doesn't have any {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , right .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah I understand .
Marketing: That Stefan use .
Industrial Designer: But I think uh d this option is only useful if you've got a lot of paperwork . {vocalsound} You can't {disfmarker} It's not very uh ni Yeah well a lot of documents are {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: No , I don't think so . It's it's only useful if you have to draw something .
User Interface: Yeah . But then uh it's really useful , I think .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yep . Alright . Um etcetera ? Well uh the laptops ?
Industrial Designer: Mu Yeah right .
Project Manager: Of course great .
Marketing: Yeah , great . Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Can we keep them ? Uh .
Project Manager: Yeah . You can .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: B by my {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Wireless uh wireless things .
User Interface: Thanks Project Manager . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Other uh things we used here ? I hated the cameras , I hated the microphones . But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well these chairs , man . {vocalsound} Really great .
Industrial Designer: Well did you really uh {disfmarker} Did you really take uh take those in account ? {vocalsound} I {vocalsound} half of time I didn't notice they were there . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No . No . I haven't looked w one time directly at the camera . {vocalsound} I don't care about it . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But we shouldn't talk about that .
User Interface: Well I did .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Because {vocalsound} this is a realistic environment .
Project Manager: Well w why not ? Uh etcetera {gap} {disfmarker} We {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} N new ideas found ?
Industrial Designer: Right . Okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What kind of ideas for n a future schedule {vocalsound} {disfmarker} What ? {vocalsound} For future um meetings {vocalsound} you have got ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well I missed uh the option to uh to email ,
Marketing: Communicate in between .
User Interface: yeah .
Project Manager: Chatting and emailing .
User Interface: Email or chat or something .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But yeah . W well th that's just the the environment they set us up f with . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , right . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah alright , but that's one n new idea . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , I agree .
Project Manager: Well , new ideas found by this .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Not . Nothing .
Marketing: Well , more more information in the beginning .
Project Manager: We don't want this . We hate this .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Digital pen is useless . So {disfmarker}
User Interface: No it isn't .
Project Manager: Yeah , for drawings .
Industrial Designer: Well , for drawing for drawings . Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . So it isn't useless .
Project Manager: But uh two t But uh th then you have to have a lot of drawings , because if I had a company and I'm going to uh buy those expensive huge expensive uh things , I and I have to w pay those uh papers uh that are expensive , I'm not going to uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well {disfmarker} No {disfmarker}
Marketing: For people who uh sketch th the whole day , I can imagine that it's useful .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well th then still they they they should have a a nice graphics programme on the laptop .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But it's still an expensive uh expensive {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Because this is huge
Marketing: Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: uh this v very very uh expensive paper .
User Interface: Well you you can't you can't draw on a laptop like you like you paint of or draw with your hand .
Marketing: Yeah , I agree .
User Interface: With the mouse it is {disfmarker} No . {gap}
Industrial Designer: But if w Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Well and if {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mouse is ju just isn't working if you're sketching .
User Interface: Uh indeed .
Industrial Designer: And but what if uh maybe this this board uh SMARTboard is malfunctioning or someone . But suppose it was working correctly , what uh would it be useful then , if it wasn't off all the time ? {vocalsound} A
Project Manager: Well no . I hated to draw like that . You you can't draw anything uh neat .
Industrial Designer: Really ?
Marketing: Yeah , but he's saying if it is correct , and you can draw very , {vocalsound} yeah , very precise {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Anything you want . Any b b Yeah . L li li
Project Manager: I if it if it would be perfect following .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well th th then still it's it's it's very expensive uh towards a a just a green {gap} uh {gap} school board .
Industrial Designer: Well it isn't , but maybe that thing is uh is {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , mu
Industrial Designer: Yeah , board , a school board , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , but but then you can uh save it in instantly , and and and re-use it , and uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: I it has {disfmarker} It is useful . Yeah .
Marketing: It saves time .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: This uh if it works correct , maybe this thing this thing is just malfunctioning .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So uh if we get in uh if we get another one and you make sure it does work ,
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: I think then it's pretty useful .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Because uh yeah you can draw t things quickly and uh clearly for anyone uh in the discussion room .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And then you can save it immediately .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well , they are now .
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: Celebration .
Project Manager: It is . So , congratulations crew .
Industrial Designer: Did you type that ?
User Interface: Hmm . Celebration . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Se {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , we can go to the bar and uh with our {vocalsound} newly earned money . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Finally my beer . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well , that's it I think .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Um I don't know how long we still have . {vocalsound} I dunno how long uh we had for this last meeting . But uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Maybe till four o'clock or something ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well dunno . Yeah .
Project Manager: Well yeah , it is a bit uh {disfmarker} Well we still have to make the end report and uh all those things . {gap} I have to do that .
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I {disfmarker} Di did you um save this one in the folder ?
Marketing: You better get started . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh .
Project Manager: Can you do that ?
User Interface: No . No no no no .
Industrial Designer: No we must save this thing , yeah . In the shared map map .
User Interface: But Nils you've got some work left . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't know what you have to do .
Industrial Designer: Map , is it a good word ? The folder , yeah .
Marketing: Huh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I have to go to a physiotherapy . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh it worked . Two times quick . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Wow . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh , alright . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Cool . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So it is useful , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} It is handy .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} This is nice .
Industrial Designer: No but uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh great , man .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: I'm gonna buy one buy one for my bedroom .
Industrial Designer: Radical . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: D design .
Industrial Designer: Do you believe it yourself ?
Project Manager: S Oh . He saved them all ten . Well alright . Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well they they wanted everything we produced , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: They also want to see my cat and his rabbit , and uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} My big bird . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Your big beautiful bird .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Where is this {gap} ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Maybe the pen is just uh uh broken and the board isn't .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Of or the other way around uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Maybe you are broken .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah I think so too .
User Interface: I think you have we have to make clear to her that we are ready . {vocalsound}
Marketing: You know . I think she's listening . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I also think so . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Who is she you're talking about ?
Project Manager: She already knows . She ? Big brother .
Industrial Designer: Oh you mean our uh coach , our f personal coach .
Project Manager: Our manager .
Industrial Designer: Is she also our accountant ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Is she responsible for sending that information so late ? Oh .
Project Manager: I don't think so .
User Interface: Close your laptop .
Industrial Designer: Because then we have to confront her with our {disfmarker}
User Interface: So she can see we're ready .
Marketing: I feel watched . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We put the fashion in electronics ,
User Interface: Yeah . Let's take this remote into uh production .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but we couldn't because of the costs . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That that's the title of our uh end document .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} {gap}
Industrial Designer: That that's our new slogan .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , I like that . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We couldn't put the fashion into the electronics .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Blame our accountants .
Marketing: Do that .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , that's a nice title . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But we couldn't , yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Very catching . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh .
Industrial Designer: Well I th Yeah .
Marketing: I'm sure management would like that . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: She's on the move .
Project Manager: I'm going to resign after this project anyway , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh , that's just great .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} | |
doc_109 | Project Manager: Okay . So , now um , {vocalsound} last time . Can you uh {vocalsound} push the button ? {vocalsound} One time please . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I'm still the secretary . Now uh , I ask you to presentate the prototype . One of your {disfmarker} you two .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I don't care . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh this , you mean ?
Project Manager: Yes . The prototype .
Industrial Designer: Huh ?
User Interface: Yes , well uh this is it . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} This is it .
Project Manager: Well , thank you . Uh , now {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's uh it's uh it's yellow . And uh , this is rubber . And and and this too . The
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: the sides .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: And the rest is hard plastic . And uh {disfmarker} We uh we had some uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} We had a new idea {vocalsound} that that this can uh can be uh uh turned inside .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And then it covers the {disfmarker} these buttons
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: until here or something .
Marketing: Yes .
User Interface: And then you can still use the the power button and the mute and the the joystick .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So , you can still operate uh all the things . Because you don't always use the menu . And then it can break .
Project Manager: Okay . And the buttons ?
User Interface: Uh , well uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Big . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Big buttons . And everything is blue , except the power button . And the mute . Of uh {disfmarker} yeah , and the mute and the the other button . {vocalsound} Yeah . Channel higher channel button .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: And the joystick is for the volume and the channels .
User Interface: Uh , yes . Yes ,
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: that's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Very obvious .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Up is channel up . Down is channel down . To the right is volume up . To the left is volume down .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , so if joystick and L_C_D_ . What's the R_R_ {gap} d {vocalsound}
User Interface: R_R_'s the l the the the the company uh logo .
Industrial Designer: The R_R_ ?
Project Manager: Okay . Very good .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So , we have {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's on the rub rubber part .
User Interface: Uh , yes . Yes . That's about here .
Project Manager: So , what they say on the side is put fashion there . Yes . It's good .
User Interface: Oh .
Project Manager: So , that's it . That's prototype .
Marketing: Yeah ?
Project Manager: Now , the finance . {vocalsound} We don't know if it's {disfmarker} th it {disfmarker} if it's okay .
Marketing: Alright . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So , I'm gonna look .
Marketing: Do we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We have {disfmarker}
Marketing: Do we change the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Sorry ?
Marketing: Do we change the the order ? Or are we going to uh ev evaluate it first ?
Project Manager: Finance is um {disfmarker} Yeah it's {disfmarker} No , first uh {disfmarker} Yes . We have to evaluate the product yet .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Sorry .
Marketing: That's uh um {disfmarker} {gap} That can be none . Um , we gonna do the evaluation now , together . But I have uh a introduction how it works . So , it will come up . Uh-oh . Okay . Um , yeah . Well , we uh {disfmarker} uh , I have um thinked a few evaluation uh criterias , uh based on um our marketing strategy , on uh the latest trends , on user preferences . Uh , we have a seven point scale from uh true , as well . To false , seven ? And on base of each c uh criteria , we need to um give a rating . We can uh {disfmarker} Well , it look like this . But we gonna uh do it here , they said . {vocalsound} So , you hope found out how to do it with a Word document . Yeah . Okay , yeah . Yeah . Um , well uh we have the Word document
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Criteria .
Marketing: You {disfmarker} {gap} So we open up that blank here . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Think I can {disfmarker} Uh , what this just an example . So , this not very important . But um , if I can get a number in here . Hmm .
Project Manager: No , it's okay .
Marketing: Well , uh we can't do that .
Industrial Designer: I'll get it .
Project Manager: Oh , it's okay .
Marketing: Um , so uh you have to think of it as uh the remote control is techno technologically innovative . Uh , and then we have to uh agree on the rating together . And in the end , we will c uh count an average of all rating . The first uh on each item .
Project Manager: What do you think ?
Marketing: Yeah , I think it's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh , well technologically using , it's not uh {disfmarker} it doesn't contain many new features . Only the L_C_D_ . So , it {disfmarker} Um , I think I will give it a {disfmarker} yeah , yeah , yeah {gap} , a four . Hmm .
Industrial Designer: I think the scroll-button is something also uh new . What uh {disfmarker} not anoth uh ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: not a lot of uh {disfmarker} a lot of uh remote controls have . I think technologically I'll give it an seven . Si six six .
Project Manager: {gap} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Sorry , six .
Marketing: So now i I think you uh see it {gap} um its statement .
Industrial Designer: Oh , true or false .
Marketing: And you {gap} true or false .
Industrial Designer: Oh , uh I'll I'll give it uh a t a two .
Marketing: And true is one . So , yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Two .
Industrial Designer: Sorry .
Project Manager: You ?
User Interface: Three .
Project Manager: Me too . So it's a three .
Marketing: 'Kay . Um , well {disfmarker} It's a one . {vocalsound} The first item . So , okay the second item . Um , this product is for all sorts of customers .
User Interface: Mm {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well , it's a statement which uh I disagree with , because we uh really aim uh at at young market and I think the way it looked uh c uh totally in yellow , it's not uh really aimed for all customers . It doesn't look like that .
Project Manager: So it's a {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's uh a six .
Industrial Designer: Five .
User Interface: Mm , four .
Project Manager: Yes , it's for the younger g group . So it's uh half half of the people .
User Interface: Yeah , but it's it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So I think it's four .
User Interface: Yeah . I mean it still has l large buttons and not m many buttons .
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: So {disfmarker} I mean , the colours are for young people ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: but
Project Manager: Yes . So , I think it's four .
User Interface: older {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Maybe version uh three point O_ uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} has other colours . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe .
Project Manager: Okay . Give it a four .
Industrial Designer: Four .
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: Four . Uh , okay . Mm .
Project Manager: We put the fashion in electronics .
Marketing: That's uh the motto of our company . Yeah , well do we do this with uh this product ? I um {disfmarker} Yeah . I think if we do this , as it's uh uh c uh it's really orientates on the design . Um , so I would give it a two .
Industrial Designer: Me too a two , because only the battery is not uh techin uh technologically high standard . But the rest of it is . So , I think a two .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes . Two .
Project Manager: Uh , I say uh a five .
Marketing: Two .
Project Manager: It's not fashion , it's new . It must be a fashion . But it isn't .
Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker} it will be fashion .
Project Manager: Yes . It w If it's not a fashion we can put it in it . So , it must be a fashion . I think it's a five .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: Then make it th three .
Marketing: Okay . Yes , I'll think of that too .
Project Manager: No . Oh .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay . Three is okay .
Marketing: Yeah , agree ?
Project Manager: I use my feet though . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh , we'll wait outside .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} A three .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: The next element um is the product looks good . Well personally , I do not prefer a um remote control that's fully in yellow . So , I would give this a five .
Industrial Designer: I give it a one . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} . Yes , a one . I like it .
Project Manager: Well , I say three . So , counting then is two and a half . {vocalsound}
Marketing: We have to do our uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Say two .
Marketing: Two or three ?
Project Manager: Okay , two .
Industrial Designer: Two .
Marketing: Two . Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So , well we gonna do the next part . Uh , yep . Uh uh , the next statement . It has not too much buttons . Um , yeah , I I have uh said is not because uh a low number is better . And in the end we calculate an average . So , um that's why it's a negative in it . Um , well this one of our aims not have too much buttons . So , um uh did we uh do that ? Well , uh if we go to {vocalsound} uh this fashion , I {disfmarker} We still have caused uh a lot of uh buttons for the numbers . But you can you can go for that . And um that way , you don't have a lot of buttons over . So , I would give this a two .
Industrial Designer: One .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You ?
User Interface: One . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Me too . One .
Marketing: One . {vocalsound} Um , but {vocalsound} where where is the {gap} ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Next , six . It does not get lost easily .
Marketing: So {disfmarker} Yeah , did we implement uh the sound ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Just a small thing . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No , we did not . So , but can it get lost if it's such a thing ?
User Interface: Yeah , but uh {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Ah . Yellow .
Project Manager: I don't think so .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Looks like a pistol .
Project Manager: Yes . Not a not a normal shapes . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} It won't get between uh the pillows uh on the couch .
Project Manager: No . It won't get lost .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: It won't .
Project Manager: A one ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , o one .
Project Manager: Okay , a one .
Marketing: One .
Project Manager: Next .
Marketing: Okay , um well we aimed for the younger market .
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: Uh yeah , did we achieve that . I think with the way it looks and um it is designed , I will give it a two .
Project Manager: Yeah me {disfmarker} {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Me too .
Project Manager: That was our target . Two .
Industrial Designer: Two .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ? Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Right . There's a fancy look-and-feel .
Marketing: Uh , yes . That that was uh , yeah , one of the most important things that uh Trendwatch said . I didn't uh say it in my presentation . But um , well does it have that ? I would say yes . So um {disfmarker} Well , let's also give this a two . T
Industrial Designer: I gave this a one because of the rubber . It feels soft . Uh , it looks like a l uh uh b uh , a bit like a joystick . It's {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , f very fancy {gap} trendy .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Yes , a one .
Project Manager: I say a two . It's a a bit personal . If it's fancy .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: So I think s two is better .
User Interface: Yeah , okay .
Industrial Designer: Two is okay .
Marketing: Okay . Two .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Marketing: And um , then the last one I could think of , uh it goes with the latest trends .
Project Manager: No , it's new . Innovation .
Marketing: If we looked at the latest trends for the uh younger people , and they ate uh fruit and vegetables , well it has a um a nice colour , uh well compared to food but we didn't uh {disfmarker} We did not paint any uh fruit and vegetable on it for something like that .
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Marketing: So , I would {disfmarker} did not give this uh a one or two . I {disfmarker} We'll go for a three .
Project Manager: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: I go for two because uh the the shapes are still round . Uh , the latest trends are soft things , you know , like uh I said in my presentation . Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yes .
Industrial Designer: But the the colours are um basic , like yellow , red , um blue . Something what also younger people want . It's also a trend , so I'll give it a two .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Mm , three .
Project Manager: Me too . Three .
Marketing: A three .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay . So um , come back to the presentation now . So , we find yourself there , and now we have to calculate an average rating .
Project Manager: Effort is three , ten and twelve . Thirty , forty , fifty , {gap} .
Marketing: So , we will do that . Yes .
Project Manager: Twenty one . So , it's uh two and three nine two and one third .
Marketing: By nine .
Industrial Designer: Two .
Marketing: Yeah . Um , uh okay . {vocalsound} Two .
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: Come on . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh , nah . Okay .
Marketing: So uh , that's a pretty low rating , I think .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So , it's good .
Marketing: So , according to our uh own evaluation uh we did a good job . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Thank you .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I think {gap} .
Marketing: Oh . Nah . How am I doing ? Yes .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: And I closed your slide-show .
Project Manager: Back to my uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Which one was the last for you ? Uh , dreaming .
Project Manager: Yep . Next please .
Marketing: Next . Finance .
Project Manager: So , now uh we have a product . Very happy . But uh , is it cheap enough ? Um , so if uh {disfmarker} I'll have a look . We have a battery . One battery .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Cheapest there is .
Project Manager: Okay , one battery . Electronics . Advanced chip .
Industrial Designer: Expensive .
Project Manager: Yeah it's the most advanced . Chip-on-print . We have that one .
Industrial Designer: Well , it's the most advanced .
Project Manager: We have the simple , regular and advanced .
Industrial Designer: Advanced .
Project Manager: We have the adva advanced . 'Kay , so uncurved or flat . Nope . Single curved or double curved ? We have double curved . {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Then we have plastic , wood , rubber .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} we have half rubber , half plastic .
User Interface: Mm , yes .
Project Manager: No titanium . Special colour . Yes , yellow .
Industrial Designer: Uh , yellow . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm , yeah .
Project Manager: Interface , push-button . Scroll-wheel , integrated scroll-wheel push push-button , or L_C_D_ display .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So , we have the L_C_D_ We have two scroll-wheels ? Or one ?
Industrial Designer: One .
Marketing: One .
Project Manager: And it's not really a s
Industrial Designer: Joystick uh thing .
Marketing: {gap} .
Project Manager: Yeah , it's this one . Now , uh button supplement .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Special colour . We already {disfmarker} Uh , that's the {disfmarker} from the {disfmarker} for the buttons . The buttons are regular colour .
User Interface: Mm , yeah .
Project Manager: So , then uh {disfmarker} then then then then then then {disfmarker} Then {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We're not gonna make it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh , no . It's too expensive .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} Wh
Project Manager: So , we have to change something .
Industrial Designer: What what are the costs ?
Project Manager: Fifteen Euros .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Fifteen .
Project Manager: Yeah , well uh when we lose one scroll-wheel , it's okay . 'Cause we can't lose the battery . We can't lose the advanced chip . We can't lose the double curve . We have rubber , special colour .
Marketing: {gap} . We would have uh n
Industrial Designer: A special colour .
Project Manager: Oh , no , we {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh , I don't think it's a very special colour .
Project Manager: No , it's uh {disfmarker} Sorry ?
Industrial Designer: Yellow ? Uh , is it a special colour ?
Marketing: For a remote control .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} What ?
Marketing: I've {disfmarker} For a remote control , I think it is . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: If we would have uh uh normal buttons instead of uh the joystick . For up down left right .
Project Manager: Um , then we uh lose two Euros . Then we have thirteen Euros . Half a Euro too much . Exactly the special colours . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And what if we use only one sort of um {disfmarker} Um {vocalsound} just only plastic or only rubber ?
Project Manager: That's one Euro .
Industrial Designer: One Euro discount . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So , I don't think that's good . Mm {disfmarker} I think we have to keep the L_C_D_ . If {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: If we change the joyst uh the joystick thing into a button up , button down , button right , button left .
Project Manager: Yes . Then it's only thirteen Euros .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And then we'll lose fifty cent in what ?
Project Manager: So uh {disfmarker} yeah . Yeah . Then you have {disfmarker} Or you have to cut this off .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} uh-uh .
Project Manager: Then it's not good anymore .
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: So , wait . Okay . I'll have a look . {vocalsound} We {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And if you say it's just a r uh normal colour {disfmarker} it's a normal colour , wh {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yellow rubber .
Industrial Designer: No one will see it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , normal .
Industrial Designer: Normal colour , and the the joystick away , and put the button up , button down , right , left .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And it's twelve Euros , I think .
Project Manager: One minute , please . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Is it maximum . Um {disfmarker} Yeah , it's normal colour . But if you lose the joystick , it's still uh an advanced chip ?
Industrial Designer: No . Uh , no , no , no .
Project Manager: Or it's then a regular ?
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} Oh , wait wait wait .
Marketing: The advanced chip was for the L_C_D_ wasn't it ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah .
Project Manager: So , the advanced is for the L_C_D_ and the regular for the joystick .
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: And what if we lose the L_C_D_ ?
Industrial Designer: If we lose the L_C_D_ , then we have an uh regular chip and no L_C_D_ .
Project Manager: Yeah , regular chip . But {disfmarker} Is it a good design ?
Industrial Designer: Uh , yeah . Then you'll have to m uh see the menu on the television . And you don't have the L_C_D_ .
Marketing: If uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So , the T_V_s has to uh {disfmarker} have to be up-to-date .
Marketing: If we have the n no buttons {disfmarker} If we have we have uh not a joystick but buttons , we would have {disfmarker} uh , we have thirteen Euros ?
Project Manager: Mm , yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: And then uh we move the the colour . What will that be ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Then it's okay .
Industrial Designer: Huh . No knew that .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , so no joystick . Oh no , but we {disfmarker} then we get push-buttons from half a Euro .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , then it's twelve Euro fifty , then it's okay .
Project Manager: Uh , yes , yes , yes , yes . No joystick . Push-buttons . No special colour . Twelve and a half Euros . Then it's okay . So , we have to change that a little bit . And you cannot use the red and green button . Because if you give them a s uh colour ,
User Interface: Okay . All the same uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: you have to pay point two Euros .
Industrial Designer: So , all the buttons has to {disfmarker} have to be the same colour .
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: But then the print on it will g um change it . Make it uh for everybody to see what button it is . Uh l How you call it ?
User Interface: Mm , yeah . Recognisable . Like what {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Recognisable , yeah .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: Yeah . Mm , yeah .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah ?
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: {gap} So {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} Now we have to change that , but that's okay . Rubber . What's the normal colour ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh , well that's clear .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Where's {gap} ? Yeah . So , now it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And the joystick away . And its buttons .
Project Manager: Yeah . It is . But then it will be just that ones .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Now it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} still , he waited at the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Very good .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: Now , uh project eva evaluation . Well {disfmarker} What do you think of it ? Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: About the
Project Manager: About the project .
Marketing: Project .
Industrial Designer: process . Went good . Uh {disfmarker} I think uh the creativity uh {vocalsound} was good enough .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We have a gun instead of a remote control . Um {disfmarker} Uh leadership . Yeah , you were the project project manager , and uh had the final vote .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah that was clear . Team-work okay . Everybody uh has something uh to say about it . And uh {disfmarker} no , uh o only the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the drawing uh was very difficult . But , nah . New ideas found . {vocalsound} Nope .
Project Manager: Okay . And you .
User Interface: Yeah , well the same . I I espe I especially uh liked the the means , the the SMARTboard and uh {disfmarker} Yeah , it uh {disfmarker} It brings up new ideas when you work with uh with it .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , I think you have to compare it to if you would have a normal um normal project without laptops uh and without these devices . I think um {disfmarker} Well , the laptops if you have them out front of you , you sometimes looking at that instead of the presentation . Um , well uh the draw-board , well you can draw things . But it not really going very convenient .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Uh , maybe it will be easier if you have a smaller monitor {gap} and uh you would also see there . And with a normal mouse . Um , and uh the project . Yeah , I agree on what was said uh mainly . Uh , yeah but you always have that some people are talking more than others . And maybe is then um the task of the the project manager to also uh ask more to the people uh less talking . To tell their opinion .
Project Manager: Okay . Well , what do I have to say . I think it was good . Not too many discussions .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No .
Project Manager: So , it's good for the speed .
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: So , I think we're ready .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Good price . Evaluation ready . Ready .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Beer .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ? Okay then .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: {gap} . | |
doc_110 | Project Manager: {vocalsound} So um nice to see you again . Uh . So , uh . Tod uh for this meeting I will take the notes and do the minutes . Uh so we will see our three presentations . Um we will start with the uh Manager Expert wi who will talk about uh user re requirements , whats user needs and what it desire for this devi device .
Marketing: Okay , can I have the laptop over here , or ?
Project Manager: Yep . Oh , I don't think so . I think you have to come here .
Marketing: Okay . Have to get up . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I dunno . I think it should stay .
Marketing: Excuse me .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's it .
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: Should stay in the square here . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Oh , maybe .
Marketing: Okay , so basically I'm gonna present some findings of a study we conducted uh into uh what users want in this remote control .
Project Manager: Oh , you can put it here . Oh that's okay , it's jus
Marketing: Um so first of all we {disfmarker} what we did is we um conducted a an experiment with a hundred test subjects . Um we put them in a in our um usability laboratory and got them to , you know , um play with remote controls , and also to complete , after they'd done that , to complete a questionnaire uh to tell us what they like and what they don't like in remote controls . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} So basically um the major things we found out was that um basically users don't like the look and feel of of most remote controls that are currently on the market . Um they , you know , seventy five percent of the people we we uh did the experiments on , found that rem remote the remote controls that they'd used in the past were ugly . Completely ugly . Um they they didn't match the operating behaviour of the user , that is , you know , the the way users use remote controls when they're watching T_V_ . Um , that the layout of the remote controls didn't match they way that they used it . Um and thirdly they say that w half of the users that we um tested said that they only used ten percent of the buttons that uh are on remote controls . Um so we collect we also some collected some usage statistics uh based on how these test subjects were using their remote control . And from this we basically came up with the figure that the channel buttons , the channel selection buttons are the most {disfmarker} by far the most used buttons on the remote control . Um and you can see they're used a hundred and sixty eight times per hour on average , um , while the user's watching T_V_ .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um the closest button that was used , well the cl the button that was used that was closest to the channel button was the teletext button , um which was used fourteen times per hour , followed by the volume button , which was four times per hour , um , all the other , all the other um buttons , such as ch um audio and picture selection um configuration buttons and things were used , you know , l approx well less than or equal to one times per hour . Um we also asked users um which buttons had the most importance to them , you know , which which buttons they felt were the most important buttons on on the remote control . And basically they came {disfmarker} they said the channel , volume , and power buttons had the highest relevance to users , um note that only power was very infrequently used , it only had a b a a fr usage frequency of about one times per hour , but users ranked it as having a very very high relevance . Um and the audio and picture settings had a very {disfmarker} that well the users thought that um w the audio and picture settings were very uh weren't very important to them um , and they used them very infrequently a as well . {vocalsound} So we asked users what what um frustrates them the most about um current remote controls . And fifty percent of the users said that uh what frustrates them is losing the remote control um somewhere in the room and not being able to find it . Um {vocalsound} they also said that it um it takes a lot of time to learn a new remote control , especially when there's many buttons and it's a , you know , a c a a unintuitive interface . Um and then thirdly , they {disfmarker} some users commented on the fact that the the you know the way that you have to hold and press buttons on a remote control ar are bad and um cause u repetitive strain injury . {vocalsound} We also asked some users about some specific features that they'd like to see in the {disfmarker} on the remote control . In particular , do they want an L_C_D_ d display , and secondly , do they think speech recognition uh is a useful feature to have on a remote control .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um basically our findings are that um amongst a younger age groups uh the answer is umv overwhelmingly yes . They want these features , they want these high technology features .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um for instance , ninety one percent of pe of people aged between fifteen and twenty five said yes , they want these features . Whereas um {vocalsound} the the trend was as users as users um became older and older uh they were less likely to want these sort of features in a um in a remote control . So I guess it depends on where we're focusing our our market . Um and as our company motto is putting fashion in electronics , um I think we're focusing on the younger younger um target demographic , and so maybe we should think about adding these sort of high technology features into our remote control .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: That's my dic that's my presentation . Thank you .
Project Manager: Thank you .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: So , um maybe now we can talk about a user interface and uh about the technical function of this device . So uh Pet Peter , can you talk say something about that ?
Industrial Designer: Well , okay , yeah . Yeah , but the user user interface is responsible .
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: B you think uh I I'm User Interface Manager .
Project Manager: Ah .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sorry , I'm {disfmarker} Sorry . Sorry .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay . Okay .
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: If I could go there with this cable .
Industrial Designer: You're scaring me with L_C_D_ man . And speech recognition in remote unit , it will be very e expensive .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , it's true , but , you know , they're features that users want ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: so it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: And our production cost of twelve fifty Euros per per unit is fairly high I think ,
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: so I think we can afford to to add these sort of features into our remote .
Industrial Designer: At least we have couple of months t to work on it so so it will be cheaper finally . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Sh okay . {gap}
Marketing: It is true .
User Interface: Where's delete button ? Okay . Oh I'm sorry . {vocalsound} {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: {gap} Okay .
Marketing: That's the wrong one , I think .
Project Manager: Yeah , it's still Bob Morris .
User Interface: Oh . Presentation three ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah you should have put yes .
Industrial Designer: Because you cancelled it . Yeah .
Project Manager: Click on yes .
User Interface: Oh . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
User Interface: Okay , so here is my presentation about technical function design . I will talk about different components and s of system and how they react together . Okay , uh , first what is a remote control ? Simply it's a device , as you know , for uh , for sending some commands by some waves to uh another device to to tell different commands uh with this device . And the main idea we don't use any cable and we can rec react simpler with the device . Uh i it has different blocks , different blocks . Uh first is remote control have sh ha should have some electric circuits uh making interface with uh keyboard and uh r reading uh keyboard and reading the keyboard uh commands . And then inter then make uh these keyboard commands , uh in interpret these int uh keyboard commands . And then there should be uh an electronic circuit making uh electronic signals according to these commands and uh finally there is a transmitter which is a cord or a a diode making uh making uh waves to transmit through the air and uh uh this air this uh wave uh will be received by the by the other device like a television or whatever , to uh r to realise the command . Okay , {vocalsound} uh about {disfmarker} what I found about uh different uh these different blocks are uh , usually there are two different methods uh to {disfmarker} for designing a remote control . They are based on infra-red uh waves or uh uh radio waves .
Industrial Designer: You still want me the presentation .
User Interface: There are two different uh uh solutions I mean . This is uh this can be uh uh the the differences the th between different kind of waves , infra-red or radio waves . And uh also as uh I understood , and uh I think it was a part of uh Bob , uh uh presentation , people prefer to have uh to have uh the remote control with less button . So for the electronic part , working and interfacing , with button , we should we should try to t try to design a remote control having uh some some simpler buttons or some rolling buttons to just to just to search between different options , and showing o something on T_V_ and putting less lesser stuff on the uh on the remote control . And uh personal preferences , uh uh uh uh certainly a remote control with {disfmarker} uh working with radio waves is uh preferred because uh you can pr you can take it in any direction and you don't need to tune it any way . And uh uh again , using bigger buttons and less number of buttons are also preferred , as I see . Okay . That was my presentation .
Marketing: Okay . I have a question .
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Marketing: Do you think radio waves um will interfere with other appliances in the home ?
User Interface: Uh , I don't think so , because uh we can make uh we ca we can make this wave in a specific frequency . So they can be in a range which is not inter interfering with the {vocalsound} with other devices inside the home .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: So can we use any any frequency ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it should be okay {gap} .
Project Manager: We have the right to use any frequency ?
User Interface: Uh no but as I know , there is a range for uh for this uh f for for uh for this stuff , for designing this circuit . We can we can we can tune our uh transmitter to work in this range , and for this range we don't need to ask any permission .
Project Manager: Okay . And what happen with uh radio waves when two neighbours have the same {disfmarker} have our remote control , for example ? And so do they have the same frequency , or ?
User Interface: Uh for this I'm not uh I I don't know the solution , but one solution can be something like putting uh p password or something inside the wave , so the only your T_V_ can understand it
Project Manager: Okay . A kind of identification {gap} ,
User Interface: Yeah , identification code inside the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah f {vocalsound} uh I know about this , since it's my {disfmarker} it's exactly my field , so .
Project Manager: okay . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's uh kind of handshaking , uh , when starting to {disfmarker} uh when you start to communicate with the your T_V_ then then it's like an handshaking protocol with your your remote .
Project Manager: Yeah . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So so if two two devices are trying to go to communicate with the T_V_ set then the the the one which has the more energy in the wave is chosen . Well it can be a problem sometimes , but most of the time it works okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: The password may simply {disfmarker} uh or uh i identification code may simply solve this problem . A specific uh remote control has a specific f
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah but we we don't have to think uh about this because I think as a function designer that we will use the already made uh circuits which we probably bu buy . It's worth to buy .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: And they have these problems solved so . So we don't have to think about these .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So , maybe you can talk about the function , and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yes . I have only a couple of things because I had {disfmarker} I struggled a bit with the software that I'm supposed to use in this uh uh in this company . I was used to use Linux before , so . But I tried to tried to break through this {gap} too , I guess .
Project Manager: Open .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Ah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay . {vocalsound} How to make it big ?
Project Manager: Slide show .
User Interface: Five . {gap}
Industrial Designer: Slide show . Okay , thanks . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It should work , so you can {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Oh so I will speak about working design . That's the first slide . Uh what uh I have to do ? A look at what the other company {disfmarker} Okay so uh presently I am looking what is possible to use , what circuits to use and stuff like that because uh I didn't work uh with these uh circuits so far so I have to look what what is a v a v available on the market for for the communication {disfmarker} for the I_R_ circuits and so on , so I'm currently looking what is available on the web . And uh I wanted to ask you m maybe afterwards , after after our discussion , if we have some contacts in some companies , so , which can report on what is going on there , so , I would be glad if you can tell me about them .
Project Manager: Mm . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So , you know . Uh , okay findings , that's {gap} the point that I'm working on currently but uh so far I I was uh looking what what are the blue circuit , I mean radio wave {disfmarker} radio frequency circuits are available now ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: but the prices I read are high . So , I know that uh the user interface people and these speak about radio frequency waves because you can you can uh you can make the T_V_ do what you want even if you are in the bathroom or so on ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: but you know , when you are not close to the T_V_ you probably won't need to to change the program and so on and so I am I am voting for s to stick to the um infra-red control instead of R_W_ but we will discuss it later maybe . Uh . Components to use , I'm not exactly sure what I will use for the design of the circuit . It depends uh on whether we will use the L_C_D_ and mainly the speech recognition ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: because the speech rec Yeah ?
Marketing: Are we um are we planning to take an off the shelf an O_E_M_ component for the radio wave circuit , or are we planning to construct our own circuit board ?
Industrial Designer: No no no no no . This we this we buy I think , because it's rather cheap nowadays and it's not worth to construct ourselves .
Marketing: Okay s So we just buy a circuit board and {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Exactly .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: But I'm not sure about the circuit which is responsible for speech recognition . This I prefer that we should make ourselves .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: But it depends whether we take a decision to use it . Same thing . It's fairly expensive to use these circuits . So , speech recognition {disfmarker} well , L_C_D_ it's okay because it's common nowadays to use L_C_D_ ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so I agree on using any kind of L_C_D_ , less buttons good for me as a as a designer of the circuit .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But the speech recognition we have to compare whether the price and the {disfmarker} what does it offer , you know .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah . So what do you think would be the price , it would be out of range ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I'm {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Or it would be maybe feasible ?
Industrial Designer: Oh . I was not thinking too much about the price . But if we use the L_C_D_ uh even the radio frequency communication with the T_V_ set and the backlight and uh related things like the photo diodes and stuff , it should be okay . If we decide to use the speech recognition , then we probably could struggle but we'll see afterwards .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: It depends of you if if the M_E_ or U_I_D_ ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: I'm sorry about the names , I don't really know , uh want to have it like in metal or in plastic , these things , it it depends on you not {disfmarker} Because the the the electronic device's price is not not so big in comparison to to the overall shape and stuff like that , so .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: We will discuss it afterwards . Oh , this is nothing . This is just my notes on what to use . And uh my personal preference is yes , I would like also preferably to use R_W_ circuit , but from the point of view uh of the design and price , I would stick to I_R_s . That's my opinion . Uh I mean if infra-red uh circuit not not the radio frequency .
Project Manager: Why ? Because it's simpler ?
Industrial Designer: Because because the the range where you can use it is fair .
Project Manager: Yeah . Mm .
Industrial Designer: It's okay I think . And the price is fairly cheap for this .
Project Manager: Okay . It's a a price matter .
Industrial Designer: Well , depends .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Jus just the price .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Otherwise I don't care what I put there because it's the chip which I buy or which we buy .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So I I I think it's o y o {vocalsound} .
Marketing: What how much more expensive ? Are we talking three times more expensive ?
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Well , three to three to five .
Marketing: Or ten times more expensive ? Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: N not ten times ,
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: but it depends what what we {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah yeah . That's still a lot . I think it's it's probably not worth spending the extra money ,
Project Manager: Hmm . Yeah .
Marketing: because I mean all the other remote controls on the market have infra-red , so people don't expect anything other than infra-red .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So it's not worth spending the extra money .
Project Manager: Well I {gap} , oh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Th they are used to use it when they can see the T_V_ so , I don't know .
Project Manager: On the other side , we want to have something new .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: You know , where
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: we want to to have something new and So we I think we should still thinking about it . But maybe {gap} .
Marketing: But I think , based on my usability studies I th I feel that users are {disfmarker} prioritise the look and the feel and the trendiness above , you know , the difference between infra-red or radio waves .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So I think we're better off spending money in the usability phase .
Industrial Designer: {gap} You the user interface , and management man , uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Uh okay , that's it for me .
Project Manager: Okay , thank you Peter .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Project Manager: So um I have to inform you I receive an email from the management bon board today and they have new requirements for the for the remote control . Um
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: first um , they say that's uh about something about t teletext . Uh apparently it becomes from {disfmarker} according to them it becomes out of date . Out-dated . And uh {disfmarker} Because of the internet popularity and everybody has internet at home , and actually it's not useful to have teletext . Um . So I think we can avoid the teletext . Um the second thing is uh they suggest that that we should uh use the remote control only for T_V_ , not for D_V_D_ and other devices , because it make it {disfmarker} it makes it's too complex and uh because we have not much time for this project we should stay on T_V_ on the {disfmarker} only specific T_V_ remote control .
Industrial Designer: I agree . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The third {vocalsound} the third one is uh about the the the image of the company . So um uh we should we should keep uh {disfmarker} The the product should be recognisable . Uh , uh It's {disfmarker} That mean we should use the colour of our company and maybe put somewhere the s the slogan of the company , which is uh , we put fashion of {disfmarker} in electronics . So , when people see the the remote control , they should say oh it's from Real Reaction and he s they should recognise the company . So , um {disfmarker} So now we we should take the decision what we are going to {disfmarker} what function we will have on this uh on this remote control . So , mm , are we going to use L_C_D_ , speech recognition ? Uh .
Marketing: Well , should we start with just the core , the basic functions that we need .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: And then we can move on to the more advanced features .
User Interface: Mm . Yes .
Project Manager: Maybe , maybe .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so the available things are L_C_D_ , the buttons and everything . Uh radio frequency depends . And , well the recognition it depends on you guys .
Project Manager: Yeah but first maybe what is {disfmarker} what are the usual function of a standard remote control ?
Industrial Designer: You should probably speak .
Project Manager: I mean
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: what do {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay , well , I mean the obvious one is changing channels . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think we should stick on very useful functions , because we want less button .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , okay .
Project Manager: So , turning channel , of course . Volume setting .
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Uh just one note to the chan channel changing . Do we {disfmarker} will we use only two buttons , or or like numbered buttons ? I mean those nine plus one or two ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: I think it would be a b {gap}
Industrial Designer: Because it's many buttons and we were speaking about lowering the number .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm . {gap}
Project Manager: On the other side we have more and more channels , and if you want to pass through all the channels to get the channel you want , it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , I {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay so so we keep all these all these buttons .
Project Manager: Maybe maybe we could think of something more betweens , like
User Interface: Yeah yeah , at least nine , ten button .
Project Manager: uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Like ten plus , five plus , one plus , one minus or something .
Project Manager: Yeah . Maybe something like that .
Industrial Designer: Or using the names and the keyboard {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} Ah yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh .
Industrial Designer: I dunno .
User Interface: Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Maybe {disfmarker}
User Interface: Or something {gap} .
Project Manager: Oh I don't know . Oh . Maybe we could have key buttons , like uh discovery channe like documentary channel , and movies channel and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You mean like hierarchical structure .
Project Manager: And inside this this thing you can move , maybe switch .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Okay . Like categorising channels .
Project Manager: If you want to see a movie you click on the movie button so you have all the movie channels and after you've you plus plus plus .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so s
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Oh sorry .
Project Manager: I It just an idea .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: I don't know what you think about that but .
Industrial Designer: So it requires the use of L_C_D_ probably , to to tell you {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , probably , yeah , yeah .
Marketing: To have some feedback . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so I'll make a note on L_C_D_ .
Marketing: We could maybe also c um incorporate Petre's idea of the um slider for the volume , with the channel .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So we c you could quickly just {vocalsound} {vocalsound} through many channels .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Like roller for the {disfmarker} Yeah . Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} For the channels , perhaps .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Anything else ?
Marketing: So we've got channel and volume . Um .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So we are still s speaking about the common devices
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: or we are inviting the new one ?
Marketing: I think so .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: I think basically the core functions we want , and then more advanced ones .
Project Manager: What about the settings of the T_V_ ? Because it's button we don't use very often , but it's {disfmarker} we need it anyway . So {disfmarker}
User Interface: So uh we don't have any uh we don't have uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: we should just design the remote control and we sh we don't have any access to the to the T_V_ design or we can change some design . Because one solution for this um uh uh ch changing channels is to see a summary of all channels , some some preview of all channels and then you can {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: On the screen , you mean ?
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah b {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Not on the control , but on the screen .
User Interface: Not on the control , on the screen , on the T_V_ screen .
Industrial Designer: Well , this would avoid L_C_D_ , then .
User Interface: And then {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't Oh , I don't but I don't think we're we're the ones . I mean this remote control we're developing is a generic control for all T_V_s , I think .
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah . I don't know if it's possible to to watch something on T_V_ {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Oh . W I I think it it would be better to to stick to the remote control and not to bother the T_V_ to to to print these things .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Well it wi it will be still more expensive , but for the L_C_D_ and this stuff is no problem in the price .
User Interface: {gap} Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: So , what are we doing with the settings ? Because settings {disfmarker} if we want to do settings we need buttons for that and we want less buttons , so . Maybe with the L_C_D_ we can do something with less buttons , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: But then you don't want to make the L_C_D_ display too complicated at the same time .
Project Manager: Mm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Two T_V_s .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I mean there's always {disfmarker} we can always have these l less often used functions hidden somewhere , under a cover or at the back of {disfmarker} under a slide or some
Project Manager: Yeah . Oh yeah .
Industrial Designer: Like ma
Project Manager: Oh , the {gap} .
Industrial Designer: We we could have for example two buttons like simple mode and advanced mode .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Or I dunno .
User Interface: {gap} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Or like children and grandfather's mode ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and the , well the the user
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: not the user , the man mana T_V_ manager mode {vocalsound} . Ah , I dunno .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Okay . So we have five minutes left . Um .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Marketing: So I think s the settings we th we are agreeing {disfmarker} are agreed that they're required .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: It's just how to a
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We should hide them somewhere .
Industrial Designer: Hide them , okay .
Project Manager: In the menus of the L_C_D_ or in the back of the remote control , or something like that .
Marketing: Yeah . Okay . Yeah . Uh , okay , what else ?
Industrial Designer: Um . {gap} Yes .
Marketing: I mean a power button's obviously
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} This I was thinking . Do we need a power button at all ?
Marketing: uh required .
Industrial Designer: Should should shouldn't we do it like sleep mode after five minutes of not using it ? Because generally {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's it's a kind of setting , I think . It should fit in those settings functions .
User Interface: Mm . Settings .
Project Manager: Because it's not a very current useful function .
Marketing: Uh , well I think when they say power button they mean to turn the T_V_ on and off .
Project Manager: No , I think it's after after five minutes or something {gap} a timer {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes . Well I I uh
Project Manager: I I think , no ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But if you're watching T_V_ for two hours , you don't want your T_V_ to turn off after five five minute {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You don't need to {disfmarker} every five minutes to keep it alive .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh probably . Okay , so we should keep this button .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I mean based on our usability studies again , um {vocalsound} pe um people said that the power button was v a very relevant button .
Project Manager: Oh okay , yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Um , you know , it was nine out of ten
Industrial Designer: Okay , so we we could p what we could probably do is to keep also to keep uh keep the L_C_D_ and all the buttons and stuff ,
Marketing: re relevance .
Industrial Designer: we could make it like a opening opening style that if you open it you are {disfmarker} you just turn on the T_V_ and if you close it , it will
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: turn off the T_V_ .
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: If if you like this , {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay . B Okay .
Industrial Designer: Because , well {gap} {disfmarker} it's maybe question for you t
Marketing: I think we need to concentrate on the , you know , the major usage of the th of the control ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: which is you sit down , you turn on your T_V_ , you change channels , you change the volume , you turn the T_V_ off .
Project Manager: Yeah . So s yeah .
Marketing: Um and all the other f functionality is
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , they can yeah they can be hide somewhere by a cover or something like this .
Marketing: not used very often .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Like covering cu .
Project Manager: On the back , or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . I mean like the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , like mobile phone covering .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but since we have the L_C_D_ , we didn't need too much button too many buttons . Um , okay , just um the decision of the power button .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Should we make it a button , or some some something which would be {disfmarker}
Project Manager: For what ?
Industrial Designer: Uh power button .
Marketing: I think a button .
User Interface: A button is better .
Project Manager: Ah oh yeah , yeah .
Marketing: I think it should be a bu
Industrial Designer: If it if it's a button or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah a button , yeah I guess so .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Its own button on the front .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Okay , one nice big button .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Old fashioned button , to satisfy the grandmothers .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: So , any other suggestions or functions ?
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: S What about things like the clock and um timers ?
Industrial Designer: Do we still have the time ? I I just wonder .
Project Manager: Yeah , we have still one or two minutes to talk , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Oh . Well what w what was the question ?
User Interface: Clock or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh um , you know , some func some features on the control to display a time , or t to display {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Usually it's already on T_V_ or something like that .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but since we want to control all the televisions , and and it would probably be worth to to set the timing on the remote ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: no ? Because if if the T_V_ turns on itself , it well you know , if the time The timer should be there .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah . If we if we add the time , we have to have maybe a bigger display or something like that , and is it very useful ? I mean , are users wants to have the time on the on the remote ?
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: This is the question .
Marketing: Probably not .
Project Manager: Is it useful ?
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: It's a questi yeah , it's a trade-off .
Project Manager: W In my opinion we should have only useful thing and Because apparently they want {disfmarker} The simpler it's is better .
Marketing: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: Ah , yeah .
Marketing: Okay simple .
Industrial Designer: Did you did you ever use the like the timing of turning on the T_V_ ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: well {disfmarker} And based on your {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Very , yeah okay , very occasionally .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But I do use the I do use the display of the time quite often , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but it can be on the display in in a corner all the time on the remote .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah that's okay , that's true . Okay , so no time button {gap} . Okay .
Project Manager: No time on {gap} .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: And uh do we need to include anything about the speech recognition and the speech commands , or ?
Industrial Designer: Yes yes .
Project Manager: I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: I I thin I think it will not take lots of place , we just need a microphone and the software , so , and it sh and it will be a little bit new and interesting , so people may be attracted to buy this stuff and it's not very difficult to uh put a software inside the the electronic device and put a microphone . It doesn't take that much place and also that much {disfmarker} It doesn't cost that much .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but we we should be careful about the battery life , then . If we use the speech recognition .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So maybe we think {disfmarker} we can think more about that , and discuss that maybe last time {disfmarker} next time .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: And uh yeah , now the meeting room is busy . Somebody booked the meeting room just for {disfmarker} at one P_M_ , and so we should leave . Uh . So , um . So now we are going for for a small lunch . It's uh funded by the company . And uh after we have uh thirteen minutes to to do indevel individual works . And uh I will do the minutes . And uh you are going to work on your individual works . And uh you will receive as usual your specific instruction and so on .
Marketing: Okay ,
Project Manager: Thank you everybody .
Marketing: cool . Okay
User Interface: Thanks .
Marketing: Thank you . | |
doc_111 | Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and there is no substitute. Janet Finch-Saunders is joining us from the Assembly offices in Colwyn Bay via video conference. Can I ask Members if there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is a post-legislative scrutiny session on the Higher Education (Wales) Act 2015. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, and Huw Morris, who is director of the skills, higher education and lifelong learning group in Welsh Government. Thank you, both, for attending, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance. I will just start the questioning by asking whether you are planning to repeal the 2015 higher education Act, or will it be amended by the post-compulsory education and training Bill?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you very much, Chair. I'm very pleased to be with the committee again this morning, although it's in slightly unusual circumstances. As a piece of post-legislative scrutiny, this was a Bill that was taken forward by a different Minister in a different administration, but I think it is really valuable work in the context of the question you just set out: what can we learn from the implementation of this piece of legislation as we move forward with our reform journey and with this Government and my proposals to introduce a new commission for tertiary education? There is much, at the moment, that lies within the 2015 Act that we will look to bring forward into the new legislation, but there are certainly experiences—and I'm sure we'll come on to some of the evidence that has been received about what's worked, what perhaps hasn't worked—that we all want to reflect on and be mindful of as we take forward the new Bill, including the report of this committee as part of it. So, it is our intention that this Bill will be superceded by the new PCETR Bill.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got a series of questions now from Siân Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning. Do you believe that the Act has fulfilled all the Government's objectives? Where are the weaknesses?
Kirsty Williams AM: Diolch yn fawr, Siân. As I've said, it's a bit difficult to place myself in the mind of the previous Minister when this legislation was first envisaged and then taken through. You'll be aware that there were four main reasons for the introduction of the Bill: around regulation of institutions in Wales; safeguarding the contribution made to public good arising from Welsh Government's financial support for the sector; maintaining a focus on fair access; and preserving and protecting the principle of institutional autonomy. I think the evidence that has been received by the committee to date shows that there are different views about the effectiveness of whether all four strategic aims have been achieved. I think those strategic aims are still really, really important and certainly will underpin our thought process going forward, but we have to recognise the higher education and research Bill across the border in England, the implementation of new student support measures in Wales, as well as the report that was done by Ellen Hazelkorn, I think, means it is appropriate that we move forward with different proposals, not just regulation of the HE sector but the post-compulsory sector as a whole. We will look to see what we can do to strengthen or whether there is more that we need to do to achieve those four objectives, because I think those four objectives are still very, very relevant. But we have to have legislation now that is fit for the circumstances we currently find ourselves in and, hopefully, futureproofs us for how we want to see the sector develop in the future.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Do you feel perhaps that the legislation itself hasn't been strong enough, and that you then have had to drive some of these objectives through the annual remit letter, rather than through legislation, and that's why the strengthening is required?
Kirsty Williams AM: Certainly, I see the remit letter as a really, really important way in which national priorities and the priorities of an elected Government can be clearly stated, communicated to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, and then HEFCW use their powers to ensure that that happens. So, certainly, I see the remit letter as being a very important mechanism for ensuring, as I said, that those national priorities are clearly articulated, and then change happens.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Has the current legislation been framed around institutional autonomy so that it's not possible for institutions to fulfil any national outcomes, and is that going to be an element of the new Bill?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, certainly, the 2015 Act contains numerous provisions that protect universities' privileges and autonomy. And that's really important, and those are principles that I am committed to in any legislation that I bring forward. We'll certainly be looking to see how we can carry those protections into the forthcoming Bill, but, at the same time, we do have to ensure appropriate regulation and accountability of institutions for their public funding and the privileges that they enjoy. And I think there are a number of ways in which that can happen. We have a very positive working relationship with the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, and I am very fortunate to have a very positive working relationship with the sector. The remit letters are a really important way in which we can lay out those national priorities. I don't think there's anything in the legislation per se that prevents those national priorities being articulated and being acted upon.
Sian Gwenllian AM: I don't think that's what HEFCW has said in their evidence. They've said that the Bill has been framed in a way where it's not possible for institutions to fulfil any requirements. You're talking about the remit letter; maybe you need to have that discussion there, but, in terms of the Bill itself, you can't make them fulfil any national outcomes. Shouldn't there be a discussion looking to move in a direction where there are national outcomes being set through legislation, because there is public money going into that?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't know whether we need national outcomes through legislation, because those national priorities, potentially, will change over time. What is really important, and what we will be seeking to do in the new legislation, is look to move to a system of outcome agreements. So, there is a very clear expectation that the commission will have, in regulating the sector, and co-ordinating and funding the sector, to create a system of outcome agreements, where those outputs will reflect national priorities, and that's one of the things that we've consulted on, and will look to take forward in the new legislation.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. That's clear enough. What about private providers? The Act, or the Act as it stands, makes it a requirement for a regulated institution to be a charity, and that means it's not possible to regulate alternative private providers under the Act, even though they can provide higher education in Wales. What is your view on this, and will the new legislation continue with the requirement of being a charity?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. So, I think, first of all, it's important to make the distinction between the scale of private providers, and what could be termed as 'unregulated providers' in the Welsh system, as opposed to the English system. And I think that's a really important distinction to make. So, currently, under the current legislation, unregulated providers can only access Welsh Government student support if they're designated on a case-by-case basis. So, we do have a circumstance where—and a process in place, to manage this. So, we have a specific designation policy, which is operated on our behalf by HEFCW. Only six organisations were designated on a case-by-case basis in the 2018-19 academic year, so the scale here is small. Three of those were further education colleges. So, when we talk about a private provider, perhaps people would have a view of a private university, but, actually, three of those were FE colleges, which we would all be familiar with. And the three private providers were the Centre for Alternative Technology, the training arm of the Church in Wales and the Newport and District Group Training Association. All three of those are actual charities. So, in order for their courses to be specifically designated, the three crucial questions that those providers have to answer are: quality—is what they’re providing to students of a good quality; the financial viability of the institution, again, to try to protect the interests of the students who may find themselves embarking on a course in an institution that isn’t viable; as well as their contribution to private—sorry, not to private good—public good. And we are considering how that part of the sector will be regulated in the forthcoming legislation. But, Huw, I don't know if there's anything else to add?
Huw Morris: Well, just to say that there are a very small number of private providers, as the Minister has outlined, and, in comparison with England, where I think the last figures said that there were between 300 and 400 private providers in England, you get a sense of the differences that exist there. And, if you look at what happened over recent years, it has been those small private providers across the UK who have been most financially challenged and a number of them have stopped their operations, with consequences for the students. So, we’ve been keen to put students at the front of things to make sure that the institutions that they’re enrolling with are strong and have good quality.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. So, what you're saying is that you will continue with a charitable status, or not—
Kirsty Williams AM: At this stage—
Sian Gwenllian AM: —or are you still thinking about it?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, at this stage, I think the charitable status will continue to be an important part of what we will take forward.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Just turning finally to part-time fees and postgraduate fees, do you have an intention to regulate this part in the new legislation?
Kirsty Williams AM: I have to say that, at present, we've not identified an urgent reason to designate these courses as qualifying courses for the purposes of a fee limit. And there are a number of reasons for that. Actually, the current Act—the 2015 Act—does not permit the fee regulation of postgraduate courses, other than PGCE courses for IT purposes. In the case of part-time courses, I'm currently content that fee levels are not exceeding the amount of student support made available by the Welsh Government. So, I think we are, at this moment, relaxed about that, and there are some difficulties around deciding and introducing fee limits on postgraduate courses. I think what's really important to me is the success at the moment of attracting people to postgraduate and part-time study in Wales, as a result of our reforms to student finance. But, clearly, we'll need to keep that under review. But, at this current moment, the Act precludes fee regulation in some areas and there's not a pressing policy need that we've identified to date.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. Okay, we're going to move on now to some questions about the level of ambition in the higher education Act and any lessons for the PCET Bill, from Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. To what extent has the 2012 university funding system limited Welsh Government’s policy leverage over the sector, and how has the HE Act addressed this beyond the levers offered by fee and access plans?
Kirsty Williams AM: Of course, the Act was introduced as a direct result of the changing scenario around finance and the different ways in which, because of the reduction in HEFCW's budget, the level of influence that HEFCW would be able to exert over institutions through the imposition of terms and conditions of funding—. So, the Act was introduced in part to address that shift in influence and the Act also has provided HEFCW with a range of new powers of intervention and sanctions in the case of non-compliance by institutions. Personally, I wholeheartedly believe that tertiary education providers should contribute to national goals and outcomes as part of what I'd describe as a civic mission. I'm determined that any legislation that I bring forward and any commission that I establish will be empowered to enable that to happen through its regulatory and funding powers. Of course, the funding situation has shifted again now because of the introduction of what is commonly known as the Diamond reforms, but our new system of student finance does again shift the parameters of influence that HEFCW or any new tertiary commission could have. But, as I said earlier, it's not to say that institutions have had a free reign. We have been able to use the remit letter and our relationship with HEFCW to progress agendas that we would want to see. So, for instance, you'll be aware, in my remit letter, I am concerned about issues around how people working in the sector are paid. We've been able to successfully see all institutions sign up to becoming living wage employers, all institutions sign up to the Welsh Government's code of ethical procurement. So, it's not to say that the Act has meant that we've had no influence, but there are opportunities now, because of the change in financial circumstances once again, to look at that in any forthcoming legislation.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Minister. Do you share HEFCW's views on the benefits of having national targets to get institutions to address national priorities? Is this something you wish you could do?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's not something I wish I could do; I think that we're doing it. Self-praise is no recommendation, but, because of the working relationship that we have, I think we're seeing some success in using the remit letter to influence national outcomes. So, I've just talked about living wage; we're also using our remit letter to drive transparency over senior leaders' pay, the gender pay gap within institutions. For instance, as part of this Government's commitment to improving mental health, we've been able to use the remit letter and some funding to be able to drive change and some improvements in mental health in the higher education sector. These are national priorities and we're acting upon them and we're using the multiple levers we have at the moment to engage in universities. And, I have to say, universities have risen to that challenge, and I'm very grateful to them for doing that.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Are there plans to give the proposed new PCET funding body more effective policy levers to align the sector to the social, economic and civic needs of Wales? And, if so, how will this be done?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said in answer earlier, I'm determined that we ensure a sense of civic mission for the entirety of the sector, including our institutes of higher education. You'll be aware, Janet, that, in the consultation exercises that have been undertaken by the Government so far on PCET reform, we will be introducing more formal outcome agreements, whereby institutions might be given by the commission very clear expectations of how they're expected to contribute to national priorities.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thanks. We've heard that the HE Act, by focusing on individual institutions, did not encourage collaboration, even for widening access activity. Was this a missed opportunity and how will this be taken forward in the PCET Bill?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think we can strengthen our sector by closer collaboration. I think what sets us apart in Wales is that this Government is determined to create a legislative regime and a regulation regime that encourages collaboration and co-operation, which is in stark contrast to the marketisation and the competition that we see being regulated for and legislated for across the border in England. That's one of the reasons why we are going to introduce the new PCET reforms—to create collaboration, not just between different higher education institutes but actually across the sector. So, this is a prime opportunity where we can create a framework that demands and encourages collaboration, not just, as I said, in between individual institutions but across the entirety of the sector. We're doing that because that means we can avoid duplication, we can fill gaps that there currently are and we can create a system that allows for a seamless passage for students to move between the different parts of post-compulsory education that are currently available, where, sometimes, those students find barriers.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, Janet?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you—that's great, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some questions now around HEFCW's powers of intervention from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. We received substantial evidence from HEFCW suggesting that powers were inflexible and hard to use—I think HEFCW called them 'threatening'—saying that they make sanctions difficult to use and so on. Are you satisfied that HEFCW's powers are useful on a preventative day-to-day basis?
Kirsty Williams AM: If I may disagree slightly, I don't think their powers are frightening. It's very clear what powers are available to HEFCW, and they're certainly more than just the ability to, maybe, lean on an institution. Clearly, there is a system by which there is the ability to, you know, ramp up and escalate levels of intervention in the sector by HEFCW, but I certainly wouldn't describe them as inflexible or not having weight.
Dawn Bowden AM: I think they were saying it was difficult to use for swift interventions—they found it a bit cumbersome. They explained to us that they often take informal measures or actions in their role as regulator, and they've explained that the small size of the sector enables good relationships to be developed. How can such measures work in the tertiary education body when there clearly will be many more than the 10 providers?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, looking ahead to the new Bill, I would want to see and be very keen to ensure that there are sufficiently flexible—did you use the word soft—and soft regulatory powers that the commission could exercise. Those powers, for instance, could include the ability to offer advice and guidance, rather than, maybe, punitive interventions, and powers to undertake enhanced monitoring of institutions to ensure compliance with regulatory conditions. So, I would expect the commission to be able to have a series of abilities to intervene, from the soft, flexible type, which is non-punitive but actually allows people to go in and support institutions, through to something that would be, as I said, more punitive, if they felt that an institution was in danger of not providing quality or financial failure.
Hefin David AM: Can I just come in there, on the point that was made? The issue that seemed to me to come from HEFCW and from the universities is that the dial seems to have only three steps. So, rather than having a graduated series of actions that they can take, it seems to step from—what did he call it—a 'meeting without coffee' to—
Kirsty Williams AM: That's a very HEFCW thing to say.
Hefin David AM: —potentially institutions going bankrupt, and there don't seem to be many steps in between that. I'd invite you to say whether you'd like to remedy that in future.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think, as I said at the beginning of the session, this is why this post-legislative scrutiny is useful, because we can reflect on that feedback. As I said, I would expect to be able to ensure that the commission had a range of powers that could address—from that soft power and those early conversations to being able to, as I said, issue, perhaps, advice and guidance to an institution, so there would be a more graduated escalation. Huw, is there anything else that I've missed out?
Huw Morris: Just to build on what the Minister has said, there's a range of ways in which we interact with all institutions that are going to be in the tertiary sector, and some of that is about providing information. So, HEFCW provides information—it sends around circulars, it produces reports and it holds events. There's staff, management and leadership development activity, which can create a culture amongst the leaders of institutions, but also amongst their governing bodies, to help them move in a particular direction. We would hope that's in the direction of the civic university approach that the Minister has outlined. We use those mechanisms and informal interactions with FE college principals, with the work-based learning provider network, with sixth forms and others, and we would want to see, I hope, in the tertiary sector some alignment of those things. When things go badly wrong, there are a range of mechanisms. I think what stands behind HEFCW's comments is that before we had a loan-based system of student finance, there was a system of block grant allocations and conditions could be attached to those grant allocations by HEFCW. I don't think we're going to be going back to that system in the foreseeable future because of the pressures on public finances—
Hefin David AM: That wasn't how I understood it. I understood it to be the fact that you use these informal powers and then the next step up is quite a severe sanction and there's not much in between those.
Huw Morris: So, in—. Shall I carry on?
Kirsty Williams AM: Of course, yes.
Huw Morris: In the Hazelkorn review, there's quite a lot of focus on that and looking to learn from other national systems where outcome agreements provide a broader measure of the range of things the institutions do and a mechanism for tracking how things are done through the provision of information back to the institution to help them know how they're doing. And potentially, in some of these other institutions, funding is linked to some of those things.
Kirsty Williams AM: And, of course, what always has to be—. What we have to strike the balance of as well is at what point those powers seem to be—and the ability to direct—interfering with the principle of autonomy within an institution. So, there's that balance to be struck, isn't there, about creating a regulatory regime, which I'm very keen and the Act attempted to do, which was to enshrine institutional autonomy, and that's really, really important, but also a regulatory regime, the ability to influence and to develop and to deliver national outcomes and the power to intervene in that sector, which you know, better than probably anybody else in this room, guards that institutional autonomy very, very, very dear indeed. And that's the balance that we need to try and strike as we go forward with the new commission proposals.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. I think, in terms of the levels of measures—and I understand what you're saying—but I think what HEFCW were saying was that they try as far as possible to use informal measures and they are able to do that because of the size of the sector—just 10 institutions to work with. The post-16 sector, however many we're talking—50 plus providers—it's probably going to be less likely that they would be able to have that sort of relationship with the leaders in those institutions. So, the informal measures might not be as prevalent as they are currently, possibly.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, but also, what's incumbent upon me as the Minister is to ensure that the commission is set up in a way where it can have that relationship with the sector, because what's really important to remember is that HEFCW will be replaced. We're not asking HEFCW suddenly to go from regulating a small number of institutions to suddenly regulating 50. We'll be creating a commission that will be structured in such a way that it can have those relationships. Because, of course, whilst HEFCW will face changes, our relationship with and how we manage the FE sector and the apprenticeship sector will also shift. So, the point is that we need to create a commission that will still be able to be close to the sector, close enough to be able to provide that soft regulation, those really important relationships in a way—. So, it has to be created in such a way and resourced in such a way that it allows that to happen, and that's my intention.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Well, then, of course, the University of Wales said to us that they felt that there was the potential for HEFCW to issue directions enforceable by injunction to remedy minor matters. So, I think, from what you're saying, you wouldn't be expecting that to happen. Just the fact that they've got the power doesn't necessarily mean that that's what they're going to do.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think it's important to recognise when HEFCW can enforce its directions by way of an injunction. If they were to do that because a university was breaking fee limits or because there were real questions about the quality of the provision or whether a university was not complying with the financial management code—personally, I wouldn't describe those as minor matters, as a Minister, if we had an institution that was significantly falling down on quality and HEFCW were using these powers to intervene. I wouldn't describe that as a minor matter.
Dawn Bowden AM: No. That's fair enough. And, actually, on that point, we've had some recent high-profile issues in Swansea and Trinity St David, and HEFCW still haven't yet used their powers of intervention. Do you find that surprising?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think what they have done in these circumstances is, perhaps, used their ability to support those institutions through what, undoubtedly, have been challenging times. Given the fact that there are ongoing legal processes attached to Swansea University, I think it would not be appropriate for me to comment any further, because there are still matters in train with regard to that institution. But clearly, our expectation on HEFCW is to ensure that they are using their powers to support those universities, and I would expect them, if they felt necessary, to use the full remit of their powers if they felt that that was what they needed to do. Now, I have to trust their professional judgment that that has not been necessary to date, but our expectation is that they would do that if they felt it was necessary.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin David has some questions now on fee and access plans.
Hefin David AM: Are you concerned that neither the regulator nor the sector seem to have any confidence in fee and access plans?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think the concept of a fee and access plan is an important concept. Whether we can do them better, whether we can reflect on what's happened to date and create a better system of what's included in a fee and access plan and how those fee and access plans can be monitored, there's an opportunity to do that in forthcoming legislation.
Hefin David AM: So, have you been aware of specific issues yourself? Have they brought them to you?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, no, not in the sense that they've brought them to me to talk about specifically. From my perspective, fee and access plans are focused very much on inputs, and, really, I'd like to think about outputs and outcomes, more importantly—what are the outcomes of the fee and access plan, not necessarily just how much money has been spent on them. I think, certainly, to really understand the success of the fee and access plan, you have to question whether an annual basis is an appropriate timescale for a university to be working to, and whether we could have something that was focused over a longer period of time. Because, when you think about it, you write the plan and then you're into it, and then, the next thing you know, you're writing your next year's plan. So, I think there's an opportunity there to look to restructure. So, do I see a place for fee and access plans going forward, as part of our outcome agreements? Yes, I do. Can we do them differently to make them more effective? Yes, I think we can.
Hefin David AM: So, why would introducing outcome agreements make them work any better?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think they're going to be a part of an outcome agreement—part of that wider expectation. So, fee and access plans are there to address an issue around, primarily, changing the nature of people who go to university and making sure that nobody is put off from pursuing that. So, that's part of a wider piece of work that I'd want to see as an outcome agreement. But, as I said, I think looking at outcomes for students and outcomes of that activity, rather than the inputs of the activity, over a longer period of time, is probably a more effective way of doing it. I think it's still—. In a way, it's difficult to make a final judgment on whether fee and access plans in their current format have worked, because we need to know what'll happen to those students in the future. But undoubtedly, despite the limitations of them, I do think we're making progress in terms of access, but I don't think we can necessarily point to the fee and access plans as being the driver for some of those improvements.
Hefin David AM: No, I appreciate that, and some of the things you're saying reflect some of the discussions we've had, but what was clear is that the process and bureaucratic nature of the way you present fee and access plans doesn't work, particularly given the fact that, four years on, early fee and access plans are still being evaluated. There's a real problem there. So, what you're saying—can I just pin down what you're saying—is that we may be moving away from yearly fee and access plans to something that's longer term and outcome focused.
Kirsty Williams AM: That's my preference. So, I think the principle—I'd like to think we can all agree around the principle of what a fee and access plan is hoping to achieve, but I think there are better ways of doing it, and I think we should take the opportunity of reform to look at how we can do it better.
Hefin David AM: So, with that in mind, I think we're talking about the future of the Bill, the consultation on the PCET reforms closed in summer 2018—with these important issues in mind and things that are currently ongoing, have you had further dialogue since then with key stakeholders like, for example, Universities Wales and others?
Kirsty Williams AM: On the Bill or on fee and access plans in particular?
Hefin David AM: I'm thinking about fee and access plans as an issue that suggests that there is a need for deep consultation, so with that in mind, with things like that, have you had further discussion?
Kirsty Williams AM: Oh my goodness me, civil servants in the department are constantly in discussion with a range of stakeholders as we continue to develop legislative proposals. I meet on a regular basis with both HEFCW—I meet separately with the vice-chancellors, and I've been very keen to develop a stronger working relationship with chairs, and perhaps we'll come on to issues of governance later. So, we are constantly discussing with stakeholders all options for change—
Hefin David AM: I suppose the message I'm getting as chair of the cross-party group on higher education is that there could still be more direct consultation with stakeholders. That's the message I've received. Now, I've got no evidence to say it has or hasn't happened, but that's the message I've received.
Huw Morris: If I could just chip in for a moment, the Minister's outlined that there is very extensive, ongoing communication both ways with the sector, but the challenge of preparing a Bill is the balancing act between gathering in information—and there's been a general consultation process and a technical consultation process—and wanting to make sure that the Bill that's laid next year hasn't been discussed with anybody else before it comes to be considered by the Senedd. So, the broad principles have been discussed, but specific details of what goes into a Bill or policy instructions that inform a Bill haven't been the subject of consultation—
Hefin David AM: Because that happens at Stage 1.
Huw Morris: Indeed, yes.
Hefin David AM: Okay. Sorry, can I move on to the next item?
Lynne Neagle AM: Oh, you're going on to the next section.
Hefin David AM: Yes, unless there's anything specific—
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, I just wanted to clarify, if we're moving to a longer term approach to this, how will the new body be able to establish that things are actually working, that the powers are working, if we're working on a five-year time frame?
Kirsty Williams AM: As we've heard, we can't really properly assess fee and access plans in the current arrangements, because it takes time for those cohorts of students to go through and activities to go through. Being able to move to a system where fee and access plans, for instance, could be over a three-year period I think allows universities to be more strategic in some of their investments and some of their activities around fee and access. In a single-year plan, it's almost knee-jerk, it's the need to demonstrate that you're doing something, and doing that within that period of time, rather than a more strategic view—. Can I just say, I know it's not quite subject to this, but we're really moving forward in terms of access and broadening access into the HE sector. For me, student financial support is one aspect of it, but if we're really thinking about social mobility and attracting people into higher education that have never been part of higher education before, our early figures would suggest—they're early figures, and they're subject to change, but in terms of our change to our student support regime, we have seen a 58 per cent increase in the number of postgraduates applying for student support in Wales. When you think about it, when many of us went to university, a degree was the thing that set you apart. Now that more and more students are going to university, it is that postgraduate qualification that sets you apart, but your ability to carry on studying is often limited by access to financial support, so a 58 per cent increase in postgraduate I think is great for those individuals, but it's also great for our economy. We've seen a 35 per cent increase in part-time undergraduates that have been supported by the Student Loans Company; the Open University have reported a 67 per cent increase in students from Wales's most economically disadvantaged areas registering with them; a 57 per cent increase in disabled students; and a 30 per cent increase in black, minority ethnic learners. So, I think that's a really, really positive basis for our sector to continue to work on broadening access.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Sorry, Hefin—carry on.
Hefin David AM: I'll move on to managing risk, if that's okay. The feedback from Universities Wales suggests that, with the outcome of the 2015 Act, institutions with the strongest track records are more highly regulated than the riskier private alternative providers. Do you think that Act has struck the right balance?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think the Act has created a system where the level of regulation is proportional to the amount and the nature of public moneys received by institutions.
Hefin David AM: Okay. Those were the words used by Universities Wales—
Kirsty Williams AM: No, no, I'm not disagreeing. My view is: I believe that the Act has struck that proportionality. When you look at public moneys going into institutions, I think that the Act is proportionate, myself.
Hefin David AM: So, do you think it's in the interests of students, then, to be at private institutions—? I've seen those private institutions and how they operate; I've seen them at first-hand—they don't operate to the same rigour as public institutions, and they're less regulated.
Huw Morris: Can I just chip in? I think that the category 'private' covers quite a wide range of things, and many private institutions are also charities. We don't have the presence of some of the large private charities that are present in other countries, but Stanford and Harvard would count as private universities. So, I think we need to be careful in focusing on the inherent quality of things. We've made charitable status a key reference point in the operation of things at the moment. I think there has been attention drawn to some private providers, particularly in England, but I wouldn't tar them all with the same brush, necessarily.
Hefin David AM: But they fall outwith—if they're not charitable providers running validated courses, for example, they fall outwith the strength of regulation that is currently in place on the universities in Wales.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, we would regulate them on a course-by-course basis, so it's back to the issue of proportionality, isn't it? So, you are automatically regulated for all your courses, if you're one of our main universities, but there is a process that is run by HEFCW on a course-by-course basis to validate alternative providers. And as Huw said, I think we should recognise the nature of that is very, very, very small in Wales, and there is a process to ensure quality provision. If there were concerns about the quality of that provision, that course could be deregulated.
Hefin David AM: And I'm aware that there are a small number of private institutions in Wales, but are you concerned that in the future the landscape may change, particularly with the opportunity to recruit more part-time students? Do you think the landscape may change in future and that the 2015 Act, as designed, wasn't equipped for that, and will the next Act, then, be equipped?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think it's right to say that maybe the previous legislation didn't futureproof for changes. I'm not anticipating a mass influx of alternative providers, in the sense that we've seen across the border, but we will need to ensure that the new commission has powers to regulate and to futureproof.
Hefin David AM: Okay. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you. We had some evidence from the University and College Union that were concerned about the governance of universities, actually, as being a bigger problem than the regulatory framework in many ways. Can you tell us, perhaps, how the HE Act addresses the issue of poor governance, or is it really just limited to responding to the symptoms rather than the poor governance itself?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think it's true and fair to say that the Bill does not directly address issues around governance in the sector. HEFCW do have well-established assurance practices in relation to governance that would predate the 2015 legislation. But governance—we've talked briefly about some recent history within the sector that I think has certainly brought the issue of governance to the fore once again, and I think there are two important things that we're trying to do about that in the current time, prior to any legislative changes. The first is, as I just said to Hefin, I have sought to have a more direct relationship with chairs of universities and have that one-to-one relationship with them, not in the presence of their vice-chancellors. I challenge them, they challenge me, and I think we've deliberately tried to establish a regular routine of that since I took office. And you'll be aware that, collaboratively—and I'm glad that this has been done in this way because I think if you do it this way, we're more likely to get some success and change—Universities Wales and HEFCW have worked together to undertake an independent review of governance. And I think it's really important that parties have come together to recognise the issues and to agree to take action, because I think if we'd have tried to impose something, we'd have more resistance. So, there is an independent review going on at the moment—
Dawn Bowden AM: Is that the risk review process in—?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's the Gillian Camm review. This is a review that, as I said, Universities Wales and HEFCW have agreed to do together. It's chaired by Gillian Camm, who is the chair of the Leadership Foundation for Higher Education, and she is doing an independent review to advise on changes to governance. And I welcome that, I'm very supportive of that, and that's happening at the moment. As I said, I'm glad that there's been recognition from within the sector themselves that they need to make sure, and they need to give confidence, that governance arrangements are what they should be.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, is that something that you're going to be taking into the PCET Bill, do you think?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. We're exploring how the Bill could introduce a regulatory condition in respect of good governance, and a commission would be able to set expectations with regard to good governance. I think one of the concerns for me—and I know that this is a concern that is shared by the UCU—is the diversity of governance and who finds themselves in these really important positions. HEFCW don't hold figures on it, but from an approximation that I've asked officials to do for me, currently in the universities that we have, I would say that men make up around 56 per cent of membership of universities' governing bodies; women—44 per cent; BME—as low as 4 per cent. Of course, in individual institutions, it does vary, but I think there is some way to go to making sure that our governing bodies are diverse and that there's an opportunity to look at the student voice in governance going forward, the staff voice in governance going forward, and these are things that we hope to have discussions on whilst we bring the legislation forward.
Dawn Bowden AM: But also, I guess—sorry, Chair—a greater understanding, that anybody going in to become a governor of one of these institutions has a greater understanding of what is expected of them. Do you think that that's a gap that needs to be plugged?
Huw Morris: One of the things that HEFCW have led on with AdvanceHE, the body that encompasses the leadership foundation, is a development programme for governing bodies, and that started earlier—well, it's been going on for some time, but it was recommenced earlier this year, with a session for all of the chairs of universities in Wales. And I believe—I'll need to check this—that there are plans to engage with each of the governing bodies, because, as you rightly say, and this lies behind a lot of what we've been discussing, the activities of these institutions have become much more complex over recent years, and so there is a need for that training and development and understanding also of the fast-changing nature of that activity.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, just before we move on, can I ask whether it's your plan to legislate on that, as they've done in Scotland?
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, I don't want to pre-empt scrutiny of the Bill, because we need to be able to come to the committee and do that in the entirety, rather than picking off individual bits of it, but we are absolutely exploring how the Bill could introduce a regulatory condition with regard to governance.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you very much. We've got some questions now from Siân on quality assurance.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. We've heard evidence regarding the difficulties caused by HEFCW having a legal duty to quality-assure all the provision in two further education colleges. That sounds to me like some kind of an anomaly or an unintended consequence of the Act. Could you clarify that and explain the situation in that instance?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you. My understanding—and as I said, it's a bit difficult, because I can't put myself into the thought process of the Minister at the time and what his expectation was. But, certainly, my understanding is that it was not an unintended consequence, it was an expectation built into the Act that HEFCW and Estyn would work together on these matters. The Act built on what were the quality assessment arrangements in the 1992 Act, which required HEFCW to secure arrangements for the assessment of the quality of education provided by funding institutions. So, as a consequence of that approach, HEFCW's quality assessment duty currently encompasses all the education provided by or on behalf of a regulated institution. So, it is complicated, and Huw can help me out here if I get it wrong, but my understanding is that it was not an unintended consequence, that was the expectation of what would happen when the legislation was passed. Huw.
Huw Morris: I would completely agree with what the Minister has said.
Kirsty Williams AM: As always. [Laughter.] At least in public, Huw.
Huw Morris: There is the expectation that they will work together in concert. There's a lot of joint operation. I think, going forward, we would expect that to continue. We're looking to the new Bill to try to make that clearer. That was a theme in the general and technical consultation exercises that we've engaged in over the last couple of years.
Sian Gwenllian AM: So, you're happy, therefore, that that partnership has worked. Are you happy with that?
Kirsty Williams AM: Certainly, in our consultation for the upcoming Act, we've generally heard, certainly from our further education colleges, that they've been quite content with the arrangements. No concerns about it, certainly from further education colleges.
Huw Morris: There are differences in the systems of quality assurance as they've historically applied to FE and HE, but I understand that that has meant that, as FE colleges become more interested in HE, they've had to learn new ways, and that's taken a little bit of time. But, I'm not aware of any dissatisfaction.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, which moves us on to this idea of having one quality assurance body or one quality assurance framework. Is that your intention and how will that work in practice?
Kirsty Williams AM: I am aware, and we've listened to stakeholders' concerns regarding proposals to introduce a single quality assessment body. As I said, we recognise that stakeholders are broadly content with the current situation with regard to Estyn and QAA. So, we've been listening to that, following the technical consultation, and policy officials are working through options in regard to ensuring what quality assurance will look like in the commission. As I said, I don't want to pre-empt bringing forward the legislation, but the principles underlying any assurance regime would need to be coherent, need to be effective and need to be comprehensive. What we're also very clear about, and I think it is important to say, is that any quality framework covering higher education will be compatible with ENQA, which I think is really, really important going forward. And by an extension of that, it would be compatible with current UK-wide baseline standards. So, we don't want to create specific problems for the HE sector in Wales.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But, you have touched on this, there is substantial concern in the sector about this offer to move to one assurance body for the tertiary sector. One vice-chancellor has told us:
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, sometimes, I think it is necessary, maybe, to cause a stir. If we don't change things, it does beg the point of, 'Why are any of us here if we're not here to sometimes move things forward?' And change is challenging always, but I would like to reassure all of our vice-chancellors and our sector as a whole that we're not going to do anything in the quality assurance regime that would risk what is the very high reputation and standards that Welsh universities currently comply with or would set them apart from institutions across the border or in a European context. Huw.
Huw Morris: I agree, obviously. I think the fear is misplaced, but coming back to another theme in the conversation so far about futureproofing, what we're seeing in the figures that the Minister outlined to you earlier about the growth in postgraduate and the growth in part-time is the desire of a greater number of people at different ages to engage in higher and tertiary education, and quite often that will be in a workplace or it will be in a non-conventional institutional setting. Historically, the quality assurance regimes for work-based learning have tended to sit with Estyn; the assurance regimes for the universities have sat with the QAA. There's quite a lot of learning that all sides have got to engage in if we're going to be able to have continued high quality in these new areas that are being explored. That's an issue not just in Wales. The Augar report, which was published earlier this year in England, drew attention to this as being a major problem in the relationship over the border between Ofsted and the QAA. So, I think we're not looking to impose one institution on anybody, but we are looking to encourage greater synergy in the ways in which quality assurance and enhancement is undertaken in those different areas of activity.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And finally, therefore, looking at overseas providers. Currently, of course, universities can award their degrees to students being taught by providers overseas. We know this created problems for the University of Wales in 2011. They faced a scandal; that's probably the best word to use there. Will the new Bill address these issues?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, certainly transnational education does present real opportunities for Welsh institutions, but if not managed appropriately and regulated appropriately can cause real risks to reputation to our sector. When I meet with vice-chancellors in universities in different parts of the world, and when I am visiting different countries, one of the great things that I'm able to say is that we have a sector that provides fantastic quality of teaching, excellence in research and a wonderful student experience, and that is undermined if institutions find themselves undertaking TNE activities that put that at risk. So, it's an important consideration for the health of the whole sector that any TNE undertaken by a Welsh institution has the appropriate quality guarantees built into that because it's a problem not just for an individual institution, but it could undermine the very strong reputation that the Welsh sector has as a whole. Huw, was there anything further about TNE?
Huw Morris: Well, just to say that we are live to that, as I know HEFCW and the QAA are. We've had conversations with both in the recent past. There is quality assurance of offshore activity through the QAA. When they visit institutions with their reviews they will look at a selection of those overseas activities and there are periodic thematic reviews of the activity in particular countries. I think we would hope and believe that HEFCW, in its conversations with the QAA, would be keeping that under review to minimise the risk and maximise the opportunities.
Sian Gwenllian AM: So, you're not actually looking to use the new legislation to strengthen the regulation around this.
Huw Morris: The arrangements at the moment are that HEFCW uses the QAA to do the reviews and the inspections. I don't think we're currently looking to mandate the detail of how that should happen. The system at the moment works through co-operation between the institutions and the regulator to make sure the quality assurance system is improving and enhancing things. I think we would look to that as a primary mechanism.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you both for attending this morning and answering all our questions? As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you both for your attendance this morning.
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3 then is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Education regarding the revised additional learning needs implementation plan. Paper to note 2 is additional information from HEFCW, following the meeting on 18 July, in relation to our post-legislative scrutiny of the Higher Education (Wales) Act. And paper to note 3 is a letter from us to the Welsh Local Government Association on the Childcare Funding (Wales) Act 2019. This is the letter that we agreed we would send last week. Can I ask Members if they're happy to note those? Yes. Thank you very much. Item 4 then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting and for item 1 on 2 October? Are Members content? Thank you. | |
doc_112 | Project Manager: Okay . Right . Conceptual design meeting . Right . Okay , so {disfmarker} Right well um from the last meeting {vocalsound} I was trying to send you the minutes , but uh it didn't work out too well , so maybe in sort of um quick summary of the last uh meeting , I can quickly give you what we what we had .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh right , so {disfmarker} Wishing I hadn't closed the damn {disfmarker} Right so we had the fact that we're gonna have the the logo uh the company logo in its uh colour scheme incorporated onto the the device the remote device . We had uh made our decisions about uh made our decisions about uh the device itself , that it was gonna be simple to make it uh enable us to complete the project in time . We're gonna have uh effectively two pages , a front page which had the uh features that the uh the customers most wanted , and then the uh the backup features on the second page so that it could uh meet the technical requirements . And the customers wouldn't have to look at them too often , only as and when required . So . So basically what decisions uh have we uh made ? Uh have there been any uh changes ?
Industrial Designer: I think we all have a presentation again ,
Project Manager: Right .
Industrial Designer: so if we go through those and then um
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Three presentation , yeah .
Industrial Designer: {gap} . Shall I go first again ? {gap}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Yeah , fine .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: I see {gap} this a little more smoothly than the last one . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay right , let's get started . Um basically the uh for the {disfmarker} Um I'll {gap} back actually . For the components design , um next step is basically the the way the remote's gonna work is still the same idea as before . We still have the user interface which is all the buttons we're gonna incorporate . Then there is a chip and still the sender . So um yes {gap} including the power s supply as well . Um I'll go on to my findings in each of these areas . Uh first in the power supply , we have the option of just the standard battery , um . {vocalsound} There's a dynamo . Any of you think of kind of like the the old torches which you wind up {gap} um . There's a kinetic option , which if any of you've seen those new watches which you kind of you power up by waving around , um it just requires a small amount of movement which would mean the batteries wouldn't have to be replaced . Um that's one option ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: but I think that was gonna cost a little more . And then there's solar cells . Um as a final option . For the buttons , we have um an integrated push button , which is {disfmarker} Oh just to say all all these are um supplied by Real Reaction . So I guess for the ease of for quickness and ease we should take them from at least like one of these options .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Um so for the buttons there's an integrated push button , which I guess is just the same as the standard ones . This says it's uh similar to uh the button on the mouse for a normal {disfmarker} for like uh like modern computer . Um there's a scroll wheel which is {disfmarker} you know the new mouse has just got like the centre section which you can scroll up and down , which may be for the volume .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: You could do do that .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um one issue for the buttons is , depending on which material we use , if we use rubber buttons then it requires a rubber case , so we have to take that into consideration . Um moving on to the printed s
Project Manager: What would be the cost do do we know ?
Industrial Designer: Um that's on the next {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: I th I think the there wasn't too much difference in the cost , that that related to the actual buttons , but it does affect the printed circuit board . Um which is the next section . Basically for the circuit board which is the middle , it's just {disfmarker} see it down there the chips like the like the workings of the actual um of the remote .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: The firm supplies a simple , a regular and an advanced um circuit board . And there's different prices according to each . So if we've got the scroll wheel for one of the buttons , that would require a slightly more advanced circuit board than if we just had a standard um push button .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um one final thing we came up with was some information on the speech recognition . There's a small unit available through the company um which obviously would be an extra cost , but it wouldn't affect the size of the remote too much . Um and I guess that would require a more advanced circuit board , so there is an extra price in that sense . There is th sorry an extra cost in that sense . Um going to my personal preferences , um I thought possibly for power we could use kinetic um which is the idea of the watches um that you move you move the remote around to power it up . And this would avoid batteries running out , having to replace batteries and such like . Um for the buttons , I thought we'd probably get away with just having the standard um push buttons rather than the scroll wheel . Um and for the circuit board , again depends on which features we want in the actual in the remote . So if we wanted the scroll wheel and wanted the voice recognition , um then we'd have to get a a more costly circuit board . And that's it .
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: {gap} with the printed circuit boards you were going for the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Thanks . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um i it kind of depends um if we're gonna have the speech recognition , we'd have to probably get an advanced one . I'm guessing .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Uh but I don't know , so that is something I'll have to look into .
Project Manager: But are we going f R right .
Industrial Designer: Um that's a that's a decision for all of us . Um .
Project Manager: So are we able to make that decision now in a sense that this is the point at which we're discussing that issue ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah . We decide . Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: so would it not be best to {disfmarker} rather than {disfmarker} I mean one way is to do each of the presentations and then make decisions going back to the various presentations as they were . The other way would be to do the presentation
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and then make the decision at that point in time .
Industrial Designer: Um . Maybe w
User Interface: Yeah , that's probably a better one , to discuss it straight away .
Project Manager: 'Cause at that point then you've got the details up there , so if we wanted to know for instance that the scroll wheel required the regular {gap} and what required advance . Then if we were able to see that down then we could make the decision at that point in time
Industrial Designer: Um .
Project Manager: and then that would be the end of that issue . Does that make sense ?
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um I have a lot of the information there .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: It might not be very clear .
Industrial Designer: Is there {disfmarker}
User Interface: Unless you want to plug it back in to yours .
Industrial Designer: Um . We could do , yeah . Um yeah we should {gap} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: As I say it only specified that we need a more advanced circuit board for the scroll wheel ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: it didn't {disfmarker} The voice recognition came as a separate piece of information . Um .
Project Manager: No the scroll wheel required the regular , so the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah if if you {gap} down um . It's just this bit at the bottom which I've highlighted ,
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: but the scroll wheel requires a mini m minimally a regular chip ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: which is in the higher price range .
Project Manager: Okay . The display requires an advanced chip
User Interface: I think the scroll wheel um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: the display requires an advanced chip which in turn is more expense .
Industrial Designer: Also the display's for something else which we decided against . Um but that bit {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: And note that the push button just requires a simple chip , so that would keep the price down .
Project Manager: Down .
User Interface: Yeah , and if we're going for sleek and sexy , I think a scroll wheel is maybe a bit kinda bulky ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I I've got um pictures well I've seen pictures with it kind of sticking off the side of it ,
Project Manager: Right . Okay .
User Interface: and they don't really look great .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay . So maybe just a simple push button , and that would cut costs on the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So . So we're going for p Okay . So {gap} is um {disfmarker}
Marketing: So are we going for the w are we going for the simple one , are we ?
User Interface: Yeah , a simple pushbuttons .
Project Manager: Simple push button . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {gap} Did everyone get this on the speech recognition ? The um it was basically what we said before , the idea that you record in a set message , and then it picks up that message um and replies to you .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So it is basically the concept we discussed before . Um but then we don't know for sure whether it would require a more complicated circuit board .
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: I'm guessing it would , but {gap} got like the definite information . Maybe we should go on what we're certain of rather than {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So if we go for the simple push button , so effectively we're going for the simple printed circuit board are we ? Or are we going for the regular ?
Industrial Designer: Um if it's just the push button then it just needs the simple circuit board .
Project Manager: Mm-mm . But is there any other {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean okay , that's true for the {disfmarker} for for that element , but we have to take all {gap} el elements into consideration . And so if there is one element that requires the more expensive one , or say the regular one , or the more advanced , then that would have to be the same for all of them . S
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Hmm . But {disfmarker}
Marketing: I suppose we need we need to find out what circuit board that requires , maybe before we {gap} m make a decision .
Project Manager: Right .
User Interface: But the way that I interpret that um it doesn't seem to send out a signal to the telly , it just {disfmarker} it's like a parrot just rep reply replying to your message .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Oh yeah , I suppose so , yeah .
Industrial Designer: So maybe that would be something separate , yeah .
User Interface: So I don't think it would effect our circuit board .
Project Manager: No .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so we'd have a simple circuit board
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and that would be an extra that would be in addition to it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Oh that makes sense .
User Interface: And I don't think you could really perform any of the remote functions with it .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: 'Cause the example that they've given there is good morning coffee machine , good morning Jo .
Project Manager: Mm-mm .
User Interface: It might be useful to say like where are you remote . Here I am , Jo .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} But I think that's maybe as far as that one could go ?
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah that makes sense , so we'd stick with the simple circuit board and then think of the speech recognition as an extra an extra possibility .
User Interface: Yeah , just as a fun way to find it .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay . Um .
Project Manager: Simple circuit board . Simple push button . Okay . W w kinetic .
User Interface: And it says that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You were you were wanting to go for the kinetic power supply .
User Interface: I think it said the cost of that isn't too much .
Industrial Designer: Um yeah I I thought so just for {disfmarker} just for ease of not having to replace the batteries .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um .
Project Manager: And how does it get uh charged up ?
Industrial Designer: It's um I think it works on the basis they have some kind of ball bearings inside . It's um it's some on watches which you you kind of you shake to power it up . Somehow the mechanism inside powers up through movement .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So you'd you'd move the remote around a little bit and then that powers it up to use it .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So the speech recognition was {disfmarker} Are we going for speech recognition ? No ? 'Cause that required the advanced {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um I think it would be helpful to find it , but I don't think it'd um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah I think {disfmarker} did we decide it didn't affect the circuit board , it just affected {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , I think so .
Marketing: Just just for the call and find thing .
Industrial Designer: It was just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I had speech recognition requires advanced req require
Industrial Designer: Oh no th that's what that's what I thought , but maybe maybe it doesn't {gap} .
Project Manager: Oh .
Industrial Designer: Um I think I might have got that wrong .
Project Manager: So okay .
Marketing: 'Cause it's s it's separate isn't it ,
Project Manager: Speech recognition you reckon then is s simple .
Marketing: it's not part of the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's it's just an addition thing it's um yeah .
Project Manager: And so we would want it in as an extra because it doesn't appear to cost too much . Would that be {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay shall I pass on to you now ?
User Interface: I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: In fact , it wouldn't really cost anymore , would it ?
User Interface: I'll just just check what it said . Actually I don't think it really says anything about the cost , but it says that it's already in the coffee machines , so like it's already kind of {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I assume it would cost extra , but {disfmarker} Maybe we maybe we'll find out how much that does cost and have to decide slightly later .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And then have to change all {vocalsound} change {gap} everything at the last minute .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . S
User Interface: Um . {vocalsound} Oh , that was quick . Um okay , so very brief presentation , um . From looking at the remotes that are out there at the minute , none of them are particularly um sleek and sexy . Um I haven't actually got the examples of the scroll button there , um but there's some curved cases that you can see , uh a range of sizes uh . All of them have a lot of buttons there um they seem to just have the rubber buttons . Does that move it ?
Project Manager: Sorry ?
User Interface: It just seems to be skipping on without us doing anything . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , I've found that {gap} try and get it back .
Industrial Designer: If you right click and then go onto a previous slide .
User Interface: Ah it's alright .
Industrial Designer: Okay , right .
User Interface: Um . There wasn't much more to say about that , just rambling . {vocalsound} Um some of the uh remotes that I looked at , one of the models da did actually have voice recognition where you could um where it was connected to the remote control functions . And uh it was quite uh a swish model , where it can control uh four devices , T_V_ , cable , satellite , video , D_V_D_ , audio . Um so that's a bit of competition there . So I mean maybe it's better not to try and compete with that sort of thing and just to market it as a completely different um like different viewpoint as a kind of finding your lost control
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: rather than trying to compete with the functions . Um the scroll buttons , as you've already mentioned , um there's examples of those , but they don't look as sleek as other models . And there's no real advantage and {disfmarker} because it impacts on other {disfmarker} on the materials and the price it's not great .
Industrial Designer: On the price , yeah .
Project Manager: So you were saying the scroll buttons {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Yeah . Th there was a specialist type of remote that we could think about , um . There was children's remote , where um they just had a very limited range of buttons and they were b uh bright and colourful and um you you could program them so that they could only look at certain channels .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
User Interface: Um but I don't know if that's really in our field ?
Industrial Designer: I guess I guess we're going for the biggest market , {gap} maybe not ,
User Interface: But that's something that's out there .
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} Was it was it specified that we went for the biggest ?
Project Manager: Well we're to go for the international market rather than a local market but that that wouldn't necessarily preclude {disfmarker}
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: The one thing that you can often do with products is you can uh make small modifications . So you have your basic model which you would sell at whatever , and then you could have additional features in you know like a {disfmarker} You'd have model one , model two and model three , and therefore you can sub-divide your market up . But that's really where your field is .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So maybe the children's remote should be like a a next step , but maybe I dunno for ours , maybe we should {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Anyway you could add on for an extra package , but on this basic one I'm reckoning that we're going for the basic model to be discussed here and that uh you would have for future reference the possibility of adding in extra features at extra cost to take care of specialist market segments .
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Is that
User Interface: Right well that's something that we can be aware of .
Project Manager: So so what are we deciding to do here ?
User Interface: Um . I think because there's already um very good voice recognition technology out there , and because ours might not cover the same functions that the leading brands do , it might be a good idea to market it as a um finder function .
Project Manager: Right . Mm-hmm . Uh the fi Yeah , the finder function rather than as a speech function to find your remote .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So you also said for going for the international market um that some some maybe older people might not like the speech recognition . S s so um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh yeah . Different languages might not be compatible .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah . It w it would make it quite complicated ,
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: where um ours at least keeps it fairly simple and then the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah , 'cause I think you program um this one yourself , like to say like whatever you want to your question .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah and ours is quite a cheap device , so I don't know how much we'll be able to put into it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So you'd have a finder feature rather than a voice recognition feature .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: And you were talking
User Interface: Maybe unless something else comes up .
Project Manager: Mm . And you were talking about scroll buttons ?
User Interface: Um yeah I think um I think we've decided that it's gonna increase the cost
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: and give no real kinda extra benefit
Project Manager: {gap} b
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: and it's gonna decrease from the sleekness of it .
Project Manager: Alright , so we're just gonna have the the rubber buttons , was that right ?
Industrial Designer: Yes yes .
User Interface: Hmm um and just to be aware that there are kind of specialist functions and specialist remotes but we probably don't want to focus on those like such as the children's remote .
Project Manager: Okay . So not to be focused on .
User Interface: Yeah . Um there was a mention just as kind of a warning about button design . Um just to avoid ambiguity . So it gave the example of say your volume buttons for up and down , they might both have a V_ on for volume , {disfmarker} Um let's think how they did this .
Project Manager: Good in in {disfmarker} Flip it round in ninety degree a hundred and eighty degrees and have it up and down .
User Interface: I'm just gonna check so I do this right .
Project Manager: An upside-down V_ . So that would show that volume was going up , whereas the one underneath would see the volume going down .
User Interface: Um . What did they say ? Um I think the thing was that if you decide to do this , to have triangular buttons , um somebody might look at this one and say oh well this triangular button is pointing up , and that's the first thing that they see {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Right .
User Interface: Actually that can't be right , can it ? Oh well , no , they might see yeah , they might see this pointing down and think right that's gonna turn the volume down ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: whereas the actual button's pointing up , so the function is to turn the button up .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So , be careful what you put on the buttons
Industrial Designer: So maybe we could have like {disfmarker}
User Interface: and be careful of the shape that you make them ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: because they might be kind of two um contradicting kind of shapes .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah I I know what you mean . So maybe we could have volume written on the side and then up and down on the on the buttons themselves .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: You could have volume up and volume {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Possible .
Project Manager: {disfmarker} Volume up , down and {disfmarker} Like that .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: And 'cause the idea was to have limited um {disfmarker} it was to have sizable amount of information on it . Limited number of buttons .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah {gap} .
Project Manager: 'Cause it was sixteen buttons , wasn't it that were {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah we got it down to not too many .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Um and I think that's all I had to say for that .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Um so what was the decision on the um design of the volume button ?
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} Are we are we gonna go through the design of all the buttons at the moment , or are we gonna t
Marketing: I've I've got some things to say about possible design things from trend watching .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , maybe we should see yours first .
User Interface: Oh okay .
Marketing: Cool . Right , um I've been looking at some trends in in sort of basically fashion on top of doing the um research into the remote control market the the one {disfmarker} that's the one I talked about last time , that we'd sort of asked people about remote controls and what what was good about them , what was bad , what they used . And we've also been looking at sort of fa sort of fashions and what people are wanting out of consumer goods at the moment . So we've had people in Paris and Milan watching the uh fashion trends .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You know {gap} yourself . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So just to summarise the most important things which came out of the remote control market investigation . The most important thing was that the thing sort of look and felt fancy rather than just functional .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Marketing: And second , there should be some technological innovation . And then third and l less important than the other two , there should be an ease of use as well . And apparently , the fashion trends {vocalsound} are that people want sort of clothes and shoes and things with a fruit and vegetables theme .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um but um the feel of the material should be spongy ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: which is contrary to last year , apparently . I presume it must have been not not spongy last year .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So we need to emphasise the fancy design with on on our remote control above all else . And then also try and add in technological informat innovation which could be our sort of find the thing with a hand clap . And then we need to ma sort of make it easy to use that's as a third priority , so perhaps um fewer fewer buttons and functions as we've as we've discussed .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And then maybe find a way to incorporate these trends so that we sort of capture people's imaginations . So maybe we could make the buttons shaped like fruit and veg , or the the buttons could be spongy , uh somehow . Maybe we could make them out of rubber rather than sort of hard plastic . And then sort of even wackier than that , we could maybe have a fruit or vegetable shaped remote , say in the shape of a banana or something like that . {vocalsound} Right , so that'll be it .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Maybe a banana or courgette or something . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: How how far we actually want to go along and sort of follow the trends , do we think the trends are particularly important for this type of gadget , or or you know , do they not matter that much ?
User Interface: I think if you start making the buttons fruit shaped , it might make it more complicated to use .
Project Manager: Well you were just talking about you've got to be careful how you shape your buttons , 'cause you're can mis-direct people . And I would've thought the functionality {disfmarker} 'cause the people get cheesed off by things {disfmarker} by having to read instructions et cetera , so .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: .. .
User Interface: Maybe just one button , say the standby button is quite kinda separate from all the other functions . Maybe that could be a little apple .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Maybe yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . Now ? Yeah .
User Interface: And then that wouldn't get in the way of like kinda one to nine ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and it wouldn't confuse the numbers .
Project Manager: Stand-by button . No th that that incorporates the trend whilst at the same time not confusing people , if you're looking for functionality .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Well I dunno I I guess maybe fruit and vegetables may be popular at the moment , but as we know how fickle the fashion markets are ,
Project Manager: But what are they gonna be next {disfmarker} Yeah . What are they gonna be next year . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: maybe {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Hmm . S
Project Manager: But but th but okay but you you can incorporate the tr If y if you change all the buttons then you've got the problem that this year's fruit and veg , next year's uh {vocalsound} I was gonna say animals or elephants or w whatever .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah ,
Project Manager: That means you're constantly changing your production schedule ,
Marketing: I'm not {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and you've gotta make different moulds and everything else ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: so that's not a good idea I would I would suggest .
Marketing: I'm not I'm not sure what what what the sort of timescale we're thinking of selling the product over is . I don't know .
Industrial Designer: I mean it just seems realistic that the remote control market isn't the kind of thing which takes in those kinds of fashion trends .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} to something which is maybe more universal .
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: But I suppose as long as it's quite a subtle design ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: um even if the design kind of changes , {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: We c maybe can imply a fruit shape possibly .
Project Manager: Ah d d But if {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Maybe the spongy feel is something we could think about , um .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Well . Yep .
Industrial Designer: Maybe still with a rubber design we could {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Was that in the sort of fashion sense that this {disfmarker} Or was {disfmarker} the spongy feel was that uh sort of fashion ? It was , wasn't it ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So the {disfmarker}
User Interface: It seems like you're gonna have rubber cases , as well as buttons .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um .
User Interface: And that you can make them curved or double-curved and that would be the kind of sleek and sexy look .
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah yeah one of the things were if you had rubber buttons then you had to have a rubber case .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um oh no no no
User Interface: Oh right , that fits , doesn't it ?
Industrial Designer: sorry it's if you use the uh rubber double curved case then you must use rubber buttons . That's the way round . If you have the rubber case then you have to have the rubber buttons to go with it . Which makes sense .
User Interface: Right .
Project Manager: Rubber buttons require rubber case . {gap}
Industrial Designer: Um .
User Interface: And that would fit in with what we want , wouldn't it , for the spongy feel , to have everything rubber .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Uh so , yeah . The m the main problem is how f how frequently do the fashions change ? 'Cause in essence in the production you want things to stay {disfmarker} you want to basically mint them out
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: 'cause if you've got fashion changes and that you're incorporating , then it means that your stock is um is last year's stock
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and therefore you're selling it or having to sell it at a discounted rate which you wouldn't want to do . Whereas if you kept the product the same but you could have a difference from year to year , uh it seems to me that you could incorporate a fashion statement if you like , rather than changing the whole kit and caboodle .
Marketing: Yeah . Okay .
Project Manager: You're just changing one aspect like like the standby button or something like that ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: and especially 'cause then you could make it something that {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I suppose we maybe are limited in the fact that we still have to put the logo on the actual {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Well , you might be limited in space , that {vocalsound} yes .
Industrial Designer: {gap} would or not . Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Well you two are obviously gonna find that out fairly quickly when you move over to your kit modelling stage as to uh how much pl how much how much how pliable is Plasticine .
User Interface: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yes yes .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Maybe we could think of the the cases like changing with the fashions
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: like the Nokia phones where you could take the casing off the outside . But whether that would be too much to incorporate in production ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: whether that would just increase the costs ,
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: make it more complicated .
Project Manager: So you're talking there about uh changing changing the casing .
Marketing: That's possibly it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah the a the actual the sort of the look from the outside , so where the buttons would stay the same , and the general function of the remote would stay the same ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: but you could change the the way it looked .
User Interface: Yeah and then you could have {disfmarker} Oh but you still would have to have the logo on every new case ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's true .
User Interface: but you could have like pink cases for girls and red ones and things like that .
Project Manager: Yeah you you could do a colour change , so therefore you would yeah yeah {disfmarker} I mean that's effectively what they did with the with the mobile phones , was to have some in blue , some in red , some in {disfmarker} rather than all in black
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: or , you know , which four do you want , as long as it's black ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: But uh so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So it is a possibility , um .
User Interface: But we are supposed to use the um company colour scheme , aren't we ?
Project Manager: Yes oh that's true
User Interface: We haven't really seen that yet
Industrial Designer: Oh okay yes
Project Manager: uh that might no
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: that is {disfmarker}
User Interface: It might {disfmarker} and we might be able to do both but it might clash with certain things .
Project Manager: Well not necessarily , because you could have your company uh {disfmarker} We're we're meant to be finishing up . You could have your company badge and logo . I mean a lot of um computers for instance like like on the one you've got there , it actually has a sort of um stick on badge
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: so what you would al all you would really need , whether it , you know , whether the casing be w any colour , could be any colour , but that badge would then have to stick out on top of it so that uh in a sense , with a with a logo like that , because it's on a white background , the only colour that it might not stick out so well on would be a white casing .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: 'Cause you you know you're sort of you're badging it .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And in fact a lot of companies get somebody else to make them and literally just badge them themselves with their own uh badge over the top .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And in fact the way they've got that there even if you had that on a white , which is the predominant colour of the uh the Windows badge , you'd still be able to see it clearly from you know a white casing uh product .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Yeah .
Project Manager: So .
Industrial Designer: And whether we'd have a big enough market to have this kind of like secondary market of selling the cases might be something to consider .
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: Well if it's for young people , um like the phone generation , that sort of thing'd probably go down well ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: and the market research has been on that side of things , hasn't it ?
Marketing: Yeah , I mean it's people say that it's the look , they want the fancy looking thing but I'm {disfmarker} Yeah . I'm not convinced on whether having changeable covers would be something that people would buy into . I think with the mobiles , it's the , you know it's a communication device , people see you with it all about and
Industrial Designer: Yeah I suppose ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: where you you keep the remote hidden under the sofa most of the time .
Marketing: i if it
Project Manager: It's uh in in the house , isn't it , I suppose .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay , so if we just went for one colour of a rubber case {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So don't change case .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Change case colour . And we're sort of saying no to that .
User Interface: Did we decide on the rubber case ? The spongy feel , or did we think that that might go as a trend ?
Marketing: Well , it was different last year . The trend was different last year apparently . It was not not spongy feel . But {disfmarker} I don't know whether the trend will change . I don't know whether it's one of those things that like sort of having all fruit shaped keys , that that probably would go out of fashion very quickly ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: whereas just the fact that it was a rubber case is probably less less of something that y you're gonna end up hating in a year , you know .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , less likely to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Sounds reasonable . {vocalsound} {gap} If you're going for fashion trends like that they'll need t you'd have to have interchangeable cases
Industrial Designer: So then th th that would {disfmarker}
Project Manager: so that you could {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: or 'cause otherwise someone's gonna have to buy a complete new remote rather than just a case .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {gap} it seems to make sense that we we'd just maybe stick with the standard rubber case ,
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: and then have the standard rubber buttons as well .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Um .
User Interface: Uh we haven't really talked about uh the curvature of the case . There's flat ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: there's single-curved and there's double-curved .
Industrial Designer: Um . Mayb
User Interface: I'm not exactly sure what these things look like .
Industrial Designer: Maybe curves give it like the slightly more aesthetic feel ? But the double curve wouldn't require us to perform miracles with the Plasticine . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well it says that {disfmarker}
Marketing: When you say d when you say double-curved , what what exactly does that mean ?
User Interface: I'm not exactly sure . {vocalsound} Um I'll show you the remotes that I've got .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: See how uh {disfmarker} Let's just get that bigger . See how uh the one {disfmarker} Oh I'm not plugged in , am I ?
Marketing: No you're not connected to me anymore . {vocalsound} {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} That doesn't help . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: One one thing to cons
User Interface: Shall I just turn it round for time ?
Project Manager: one thing to consider is that in some ways you want um {disfmarker} by having a fairly standard case it means they can all fit together on top of each other
Marketing: {gap} That should come up .
Project Manager: therefore for storage purposes in shops and the like and it makes it easier that you can {disfmarker} if you can store them up on top of each other .
Marketing: Mm {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Whereas if you do um fancy things with it , you then gotta put it in a ca a a packaging box that that does that . And the cost of packaging could be quite important vis-a-vis the total cost of the product .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah .
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So shall we go through quickly and just work out what we've decide on , if we have to kind of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Um it's not very clear up there ,
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: but you can see some of them have got kind of bulges , like the second one and the end one uh where there's a curve there .
Project Manager: Mm yep .
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: I'm not exactl I don't know if a double curve is maybe it comes up slightly , or ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's what I was trying to work out .
User Interface: {vocalsound} But um it is a kinda sleeker look if you've got curves in there .
Project Manager: Oh right . S so do you wanna go for curves , more curves ?
Marketing: Shall we
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: We're meant to be f we're meant to be finishing this meeting in about a minute or so .
User Interface: Definitely a single , maybe a double .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay , so shall we quickly {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Shall we go for single curve , just to compromise ?
Industrial Designer: We'll go for single curve , yeah .
Project Manager: Okay ,
Industrial Designer: Single curve .
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: curved or double curved ? So it's single curved .
Industrial Designer: So did we did we decide on the kinetic power supply ? The one you move around ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah I think that think that's a good idea .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Um {disfmarker} {gap}
User Interface: And the rubber push buttons , rubber case .
Marketing: Rubber {disfmarker} Rubber buttons and case .
User Interface: Um and we don't really know much about the colour scheme or logo yet do we ,
Industrial Designer: Oh we ca
User Interface: but possibly a sticker .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah , we'll still have the {disfmarker} Are we gonna go for the simple circuit board just to keep the cost down ? I th I think we can by by not having anything too complicated {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah and and the voice recognition , we can use that can't we , just to find it . Without affecting the circuit board .
Project Manager: Yes . Yep .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um .
Marketing: Yeah yeah .
Industrial Designer: And see we could always decide against it if something comes up that's just something to {disfmarker} that we seemed to leave out .
Marketing: Okay . And then are we going for sort of one button shaped like a fruit . {vocalsound} Or veg .
User Interface: Yeah that sounds like it wouldn't do too much harm in a couple of years . Uh what sort of shape do we want ?
Project Manager: So we've got spongy feel buttons as well , have we ?
Marketing: Don't know , maybe just
Project Manager: As well as {disfmarker} or w or was that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . That's ru rubber buttons , yeah .
Project Manager: So it's rubber buttons ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it was just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: so it's not really spongy feel buttons , it's just rubber buttons . With a rubber case right ?
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , so it's not too wacky .
Marketing: Reasonably spongy I guess , yeah .
Project Manager: And the standby button is gonna be different .
Marketing: Yeah okay .
User Interface: Um I think an apple would be a good recognisable shape . If you start getting into kinda aubergines and things , it gets a bit weird .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay so what what shape are we making the standby button ?
Marketing: Yeah {gap} . Apple ?
Project Manager: A apple .
User Interface: Vote ?
Project Manager: Oh oh {disfmarker} Sorry ?
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Shall we vote on it ?
Industrial Designer: We will go for the a a a apples apples .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Anyone got any suggestions ?
Marketing: Apple apple a a qu Quite a big one , as well .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay . Ah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} A big apple . Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well it could be red .
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: Could be a red apple , yeah . Either , don't mind .
Project Manager: A red apple ? Is it ?
User Interface: Yeah 'cause we wanna incorporate a bit of colour if we can , once we find out um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay . And then we're gonna {disfmarker} are you gonna work on keeping the button design quite simple ? Just like the {disfmarker} Just working out what we're gonna do for the next time .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah that seems pretty straight forward .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: 'Cause most of them will just be kind of mainly circular or like very plain .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Okay .
Project Manager: Sorry what was that last thing again there ?
User Interface: Uh just to keep the shape of the buttons simple .
Project Manager: Right {gap} much option on that . I thought you were going for a single curve and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Ah just the uh shape of the buttons .
Project Manager: Alright .
Industrial Designer: And j yeah , just keeping the sort of the labelling them labelling of them fairly simple as well . Fairly sort of self explanatory .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Right , so shape of buttons simple . Okay . So that's that , I guess . We should now go away and get these things sorted out . {gap} I guess you two are on plasticine duty or whatever .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay , so um .
Industrial Designer: Is that the end ? Okay .
Marketing: Looks like it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . | |
doc_113 | Grad D: Channel one .
PhD G: Test .
PhD E: Hello .
Grad D: Channel three .
PhD G: Test .
PhD A: Uh - oh .
Professor F: So you think we 're going now , yes ? OK , good . Alright Going again Uh {disfmarker} So we 're gonna go around as before , and uh do {disfmarker} do our digits . Uh transcript one three one one dash one three three zero . {comment} three two three {comment} four seven six five {comment} five three one six two four one {comment} six seven {comment} seven {comment} eight {comment} nine zero nine four zero zero three {comment} zero one five eight {comment} one seven three five three {comment} two six eight zero {comment} three six two four three zero seven {comment} four {comment} five zero six nine four {comment} seven four {comment} eight five seven {comment} nine six one five {comment} O seven eight O two {comment} zero nine six zero four zero zero {comment} one {comment} two {comment} Uh {disfmarker} Yeah , you don't actually n need to say the name .
Grad C: OK , {vocalsound} this is Barry Chen and I am reading transcript
Professor F: That 'll probably be bleeped out .
Grad C: OK .
Professor F: So . That 's if these are anonymized , but {vocalsound} Yeah {disfmarker}
Grad C: Oh . {comment} OK .
Professor F: uh {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} not that there 's anything defamatory about uh {disfmarker} eight five seven or {vocalsound} or anything , but
Grad C: OK .
Professor F: Uh , anyway . Uh {disfmarker} so here 's what I have for {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was just jotting down things I think th w that we should do today . Uh {disfmarker} This is what I have for an agenda so far Um , We should talk a little bit about the plans for the uh {disfmarker} the field trip next week . Uh {disfmarker} a number of us are doing a field trip to uh Uh {disfmarker} OGI And uh {disfmarker} mostly uh First though about the logistics for it . Then maybe later on in the meeting we should talk about what we actually you know , might accomplish . Uh {disfmarker}
Grad C: OK .
Professor F: Uh , in and {pause} kind of go around {disfmarker} see what people have been doing {disfmarker} talk about that , {pause} a r progress report . Um , Essentially . Um {disfmarker} And then uh {disfmarker} Another topic I had was that uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} Dave here had uh said uh " Give me something to do . " And I {disfmarker} I have {disfmarker} I have uh {disfmarker} failed so far in doing that . And so maybe we can discuss that a little bit . If we find some holes in some things that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} someone could use some help with , he 's {disfmarker} he 's volunteering to help .
PhD A: I 've got to move a bunch of furniture .
Professor F: OK , always count on a {vocalsound} serious comment from that corner . So , um , uh , and uh , then uh , talk a little bit about {disfmarker} about disks and resource {disfmarker} resource issues that {disfmarker} that 's starting to get worked out . And then , anything else anybody has that isn't in that list ? Uh {disfmarker}
Grad D: I was just wondering , does this mean the battery 's dying and I should change it ?
Professor F: Uh I think that means the battery 's O K . {disfmarker}
PhD A: Let me see .
Professor F: d {disfmarker} do you
Grad D: Oh OK , so th
PhD A: Yeah , that 's good . You 're alright ?
Grad D: Cuz it 's full .
Professor F: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad D: Alright .
Professor F: Yeah . Yeah . It looks full of electrons . OK . Plenty of electrons left there . OK , so , um , uh . OK , so , uh , I wanted to start this with this mundane thing . Um {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker} it was kind of my bright idea to have us take a plane that leaves at seven twenty in the morning .
Grad C: Oh , yeah , that 's right .
Professor F: Um . Uh {vocalsound} this is uh {disfmarker} The reason I did it uh was because otherwise for those of us who have to come back the same day it is really not much of a {disfmarker} of a visit . Uh {disfmarker} So um the issue is how {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} how would we ever accomplish that ? Uh {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what part of town do you live in ?
Grad C: Um , I live in , um , the corner of campus . The , um , southeast corner .
Professor F: OK . OK , so would it be easier {disfmarker} those of you who are not , you know , used to this area , it can be very tricky to get to the airport at {disfmarker} at uh , you know , six thirty . Um . So . Would it be easier for you if you came here and I drove you ? Yeah ? Yeah , yeah , OK .
PhD G: Yeah , perhaps , yeah .
Grad C: Yeah . Sure .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor F: OK , so if {disfmarker} if everybody can get here at six .
PhD E: At six .
Professor F: Yeah , I 'm afraid we need to do that to get there on time .
Grad C: Six , OK .
Professor F: Yeah , so . Oh boy . Anyway , so .
PhD A: Will that {pause} be enough time ?
Professor F: Yeah . Yeah , so I 'll just pull up in front at six and just be out front . And , uh , and yeah , that 'll be plenty of time . It 'll take {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it won't be bad traffic that time of day and {disfmarker} and uh
PhD A: I guess once you get past the bridge {pause} that that would be the worst .
PhD B: Yeah , Oakland .
Professor F: Going to Oakland .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad C: Oakland .
PhD A: Once you get past the turnoff to the {pause} Bay Bridge .
Professor F: Bridge oh , the turnoff to the bridge
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor F: Won't even do that .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor F: I mean , just go down Martin Luther King .
PhD A: Yeah . OK . Mm - hmm .
Professor F: And then Martin Luther King to nine - eighty to eight - eighty ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor F: and it 's {disfmarker} it 'd take us , tops uh thirty minutes to get there .
PhD A: Oh , I {disfmarker}
Professor F: So that leaves us fifty minutes before the plane {disfmarker} it 'll just {disfmarker} yeah . So Great , OK so that 'll It 's {disfmarker} I mean , it 's still not going to be really easy but {disfmarker} well Particularly for {disfmarker} for uh {disfmarker} for Barry and me , we 're not {disfmarker} we 're not staying overnight so we don't need to bring anything particularly except for {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} a pad of paper and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So , and , uh you , two have to bring a little bit
Grad C: OK .
Professor F: but uh {disfmarker} you know , don't {disfmarker} don't bring a footlocker and we 'll be OK So .
Grad C: s So just {disfmarker}
Professor F: W you 're staying overnight . I figured you wouldn't need a great big suitcase , yeah .
PhD G: Oh yeah . Yeah .
Professor F: That 's sort of {pause} {vocalsound} one night . So . Anyway . OK .
Grad C: So , s six AM , in front .
Professor F: Six AM in front .
Grad C: OK .
Professor F: Uh , I 'll be here . Uh {disfmarker} I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll give you my phone number , If I 'm not here for a few m after a few minutes then
Grad C: Wake you up .
Professor F: Nah , I 'll be fine . I just , uh {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} for me it just means getting up a half an hour earlier than I usually do . Not {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not a lot ,
Grad C: OK . Wednesday .
Professor F: so OK , that was the real real important stuff . Um , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I figured maybe wait on the potential goals for the meeting uh {disfmarker} until we talk about wh what 's been going on . So , uh , what 's been going on ? Why don't we start {disfmarker} start over here .
PhD G: Um . {vocalsound} Well , preparation of the French test data actually .
Professor F: OK .
PhD G: So , {vocalsound} it means that um , well , it is , uh , a digit French database of microphone speech , downsampled to eight kilohertz and I 've added noise to one part , with the {disfmarker} actually the Aurora - two noises . And , @ @ so this is a training part . And then {pause} the remaining part , I use for testing and {disfmarker} with other kind of noises . So we can {disfmarker} So this is almost ready . I 'm preparing the {disfmarker} the HTK baseline for this task . And , yeah .
Professor F: OK Uh , So the HTK base lines {disfmarker} so this is using mel cepstra and so on , or {disfmarker} ? Yeah . OK .
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor F: And again , I guess the p the plan is , uh , to uh {disfmarker} then given this {disfmarker} What 's the plan again ?
PhD G: The plan with {pause} these data ?
Professor F: With {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} Does i Just remind me of what {disfmarker} what you were going to do with the {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what 's {disfmarker} y You just described what you 've been doing . So if you could remind me of what you 're going to be doing .
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor F: Oh , this is {disfmarker} yeah , yeah .
PhD G: Uh , yeah .
Grad C: Tell him about the cube .
PhD G: Well . The cube ? I should tell him about the cube ?
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor F: Oh ! Cube . Yeah .
PhD G: Yeah .
PhD E: Fill in the cube .
PhD G: Uh we {disfmarker} actually we want to , mmm , Uh , {vocalsound} uh , analyze three dimensions , the feature dimension , the {pause} training data dimension , and the test data dimension . Um . Well , what we want to do is first we have number for each {pause} uh task . So we have the um , TI - digit task , the Italian task , the French task {pause} and the Finnish task .
Professor F: Yeah ?
PhD G: So we have numbers with {pause} uh {disfmarker} systems {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} I mean neural networks trained on the task data . And then to have systems with neural networks trained on , {vocalsound} uh , data from the same language , if possible , with , well , using a more generic database , which is phonetically {disfmarker} phonetically balanced , and . Um .
Professor F: So - so we had talked {disfmarker} I guess we had talked at one point about maybe , the language ID corpus ?
PhD G: Yeah . So .
Professor F: Is that a possibility for that ?
PhD G: Ye - uh {disfmarker} {pause} Yeah , but , uh these corpus , w w there is a CallHome and a CallFriend also , The CallFriend is for language ind identification . Well , anyway , these corpus are all telephone speech . So , um . {vocalsound} This could be a {disfmarker} {pause} a problem for {disfmarker} Why ? Because uh , uh , the {disfmarker} the SpeechDat databases are not telephone speech . They are downsampled to eight kilohertz but {disfmarker} but they are not {vocalsound} uh with telephone bandwidth .
Professor F: Yeah . That 's really funny isn't it ? I mean cuz th this whole thing is for {pause} developing new standards for the telephone .
Grad C: Telephone .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: Yeah , but the {disfmarker} the idea is to compute the feature before {pause} the {disfmarker} before sending them to the {disfmarker} Well , {pause} you don't {disfmarker} do not send speech , you send features , computed on th the {disfmarker} {pause} the device ,
Professor F: Mm - hmm . Yeah , I know , but the reason {disfmarker}
PhD G: or {disfmarker} Well .
Professor F: Oh I see , so your point is that it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh {disfmarker} the features are computed locally , and so they aren't necessarily telephone bandwidth , uh or telephone distortions .
PhD G: So you {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .
PhD A: Did you {pause} happen to find out anything about the OGI multilingual database ?
Professor F: Yeah , that 's wh that 's wh that 's what I meant .
PhD G: Yeah , it 's {disfmarker}
Professor F: I said {disfmarker} @ @ , there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's an OGI language ID , not the {disfmarker} not the , uh {disfmarker} the CallFriend is a {disfmarker} is a , uh , LDC w thing , right ?
PhD G: Yea - Yeah , there are also two other databases . One they call the multi - language database , and another one is a twenty - two language , something like that . But it 's also telephone speech .
PhD A: Oh , they are ? OK .
PhD G: Uh . Well , nnn .
Professor F: But I 'm not sure {disfmarker}
PhD G: So {disfmarker}
Professor F: I mean , we ' r e e The bandwidth shouldn't be such an issue right ? Because e e this is downsampled and {disfmarker} and filtered , right ? So it 's just the fact that it 's not telephone . And there are so many other differences between these different databases . I mean some of this stuff 's recorded in the car , and some of it 's {disfmarker} I mean there 's {disfmarker} there 's many different acoustic differences . So I 'm not sure if {disfmarker} . I mean , unless we 're going to include a bunch of car recordings in the {disfmarker} in the training database , I 'm not sure if it 's {disfmarker} completely rules it out
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor F: if our {disfmarker} if we {disfmarker} if our major goal is to have phonetic context and you figure that there 's gonna be a mismatch in acoustic conditions does it make it much worse f to sort of add another mismatch , if you will .
PhD G: Mmm .
Professor F: Uh , i i I {disfmarker} I guess the question is how important is it to {disfmarker} for us to get multiple languages uh , in there .
PhD G: Yeah , but {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . {vocalsound} Um . Yeah . Well , actually , for the moment if we w do not want to use these phone databases , we {disfmarker} we already have uh {disfmarker} English , Spanish and French uh , with microphone speech .
Professor F: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
PhD G: So .
Professor F: So that 's what you 're thinking of using is sort of the multi the equivalent of the multiple ?
PhD G: Well . Yeah , for the multilingual part we were thinking of using these three databases .
Professor F: And for the difference in phonetic context {pause} that you {disfmarker} ? Provide that .
PhD G: Well , this {disfmarker} Uh , actually , these three databases are um generic databases .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD G: So w f for {disfmarker} for uh Italian , which is close to Spanish , French and , i i uh , TI - digits we have both uh , digits {pause} training data and also {pause} more general training data . So . Mmm .
Professor F: Well , we also have this Broadcast News that we were talking about taking off the disk , which is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} is microphone data for {disfmarker} for English .
PhD G: Yeah . Yeah , perhaps {disfmarker} yeah , there is also TIMIT .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: We could use TIMIT .
Professor F: Right . Yeah , so there 's plenty of stuff around . OK , so anyway , th the basic plan is to , uh , test this cube . Yes .
PhD G: Yeah .
PhD E: To fill in the cube .
Professor F: To fill i fill it in , yeah . OK .
PhD G: Yeah , and perhaps , um {disfmarker} {pause} We were thinking that perhaps the cross - language issue is not , uh , so big of a issue . Well , w w we {disfmarker} perhaps we should not focus too much on that cross - language stuff . I mean , uh , training {disfmarker} training a net on a language and testing a for another language .
Professor F: Uh - huh . But that 's {disfmarker}
PhD G: Mmm . Perhaps the most important is to have neural networks trained on the target languages . But , uh , with a general database {disfmarker} general databases . u So that th Well , the {disfmarker} the guy who has to develop an application with one language can use the net trained o on that language , or a generic net ,
Professor F: Uh , depen it depen it depends how you mean " using the net " .
PhD G: but not trained on a {disfmarker}
Professor F: So , if you 're talking about for producing these discriminative features {pause} that we 're talking about {pause} you can't do that .
PhD G: Mmm .
Professor F: Because {disfmarker} because the {disfmarker} what they 're asking for is {disfmarker} is a feature set . Right ? And so , uh , we 're the ones who have been weird by {disfmarker} by doing this training . But if we say , " No , you have to have a different feature set for each language , " I think this is ver gonna be very bad .
PhD G: Yeah .
Grad C: Oh .
PhD G: You think so .
Grad C: That 's {disfmarker}
PhD E: Oh .
Professor F: So {disfmarker} Oh yeah .
PhD G: Mmm .
Professor F: Yeah . I mean , in principle , I mean conceptually , it 's sort of like they want a re @ @ {comment} well , they want a replacement for mel cepstra .
PhD G: Mmm .
Professor F: So , we say " OK , this is the year two thousand , we 've got something much better than mel cepstra . It 's , you know , gobbledy - gook . " OK ? And so {vocalsound} we give them these gobbledy - gook features but these gobbledy - gook features are supposed to be good for any language .
PhD G: Hmm .
Professor F: Cuz you don't know who 's gonna call , and you know , I mean so it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's , uh , uh {disfmarker} how do you know what language it is ? Somebody picks up the phone . So thi this is their image . Someone picks up the phone , right ?
PhD G: Well , I {comment} chh {disfmarker}
Professor F: And {disfmarker} and he {disfmarker} he picks up the ph
PhD G: Yeah , but the {disfmarker} the application is {disfmarker} there is a target language for the application .
Professor F: Yeah . y y y
PhD G: So , if a {disfmarker}
Professor F: Well . But , no but , y you {disfmarker} you pick up the phone ,
PhD G: Well .
Professor F: you talk on the phone ,
PhD G: Yeah ?
Professor F: and it sends features out . OK , so the phone doesn't know what a {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what your language is .
PhD G: Yeah , if {disfmarker} Yeah . If it 's th in the phone , but {disfmarker}
Professor F: But that 's the image that they have .
PhD G: well , it {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that could be th at the server 's side ,
Professor F: It could be ,
PhD G: and , well . Mmm , yeah .
Professor F: but that 's the image they have , right ? So that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} I mean , one could argue all over the place about how things really will be in ten years . But the particular image that the cellular industry has right now is that it 's distributed speech recognition , where the , uh , uh , probabilistic part , and {disfmarker} and s semantics and so forth are all on the servers , and you compute features of the {disfmarker} uh , on the phone . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's what we 're involved in . We might {disfmarker} might or might not agree that that 's the way it will be in ten years , but that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's what they 're asking for . So {disfmarker} so I think that {disfmarker} th th it is an important issue whether it works cross - language . Now , it 's the OGI , uh , folks ' perspective right now that probably that 's not the biggest deal . And that the biggest deal is the , um envir acoustic - environment mismatch . And they may very well be right , but I {disfmarker} I was hoping we could just do a test and determine if that was true . If that 's true , we don't need to worry so much . Maybe {disfmarker} maybe we have a couple languages in the training set and that gives us enough breadth uh , uh , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that the rest doesn't matter . Um , the other thing is , uh , this notion of training to uh {disfmarker} which I {disfmarker} I guess they 're starting to look at up there , {comment} training to something more like articulatory features . Uh , and if you have something that 's just good for distinguishing different articulatory features that should just be good across , you know , a wide range of languages .
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor F: Uh , but {disfmarker} Yeah , so I don't th I know {disfmarker} unfortunately I don't {disfmarker} I see what you 're comi where you 're coming from , I think , but I don't think we can ignore it .
PhD G: So we {disfmarker} we really have to do test with a real cross - language . I mean , tr for instance training on English and testing on Italian , or {disfmarker} Or we can train {disfmarker} or else , uh , can we train a net on , uh , a range of languages and {disfmarker} which can include the test {disfmarker} the test @ @ the target language ,
Grad C: Test on an unseen .
PhD G: or {disfmarker}
Professor F: Yeah , so , um , there 's {disfmarker} there 's , uh {disfmarker} This is complex . So , ultimately , uh , as I was saying , I think it doesn't fit within their image that you switch nets based on language . Now , can you include , uh , the {disfmarker} the target language ?
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor F: Um , from a purist 's standpoint it 'd be nice not to because then you can say when {disfmarker} because surely someone is going to say at some point , " OK , so you put in the German and the Finnish .
PhD G: Mmm .
Professor F: Uh , now , what do you do , uh , when somebody has Portuguese ? " you know ? Um , and {disfmarker} Uh , however , you aren't {disfmarker} it isn't actually a constraint in this evaluation . So I would say if it looks like there 's a big difference to put it in , then we 'd make note of it , and then we probably put in the other , because we have so many other problems in trying to get things to work well here that {disfmarker} that , you know , it 's not so bad as long as we {disfmarker} we note it and say , " Look , we did do this " .
PhD G: Mmm ?
PhD A: And so , ideally , what you 'd wanna do is you 'd wanna run it with and without the target language and the training set for a wide range of languages .
Professor F: Uh . Yeah .
PhD G: Yeah , perhaps . Yeah .
PhD A: And that way you can say , " Well , " you know , " we 're gonna build it for what we think are {pause} the most common ones " ,
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: Yeah .
PhD A: but if that {disfmarker} somebody uses it with a different language , you know , " here 's what 's you 're l here 's what 's likely to happen . "
Professor F: Yeah , cuz the truth is , is that it 's {disfmarker} it 's not like there are {disfmarker} I mean , al although there are thousands of languages , uh , from uh , uh , the point of view of cellular companies , there aren't .
PhD A: Right .
Professor F: There 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , there 's fifty or something , you know ? So , uh , an and they aren't {disfmarker} you know , with the exception of Finnish , which I guess it 's pretty different from most {disfmarker} most things . uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's , uh {disfmarker} most of them are like at least some of the others . And so , our guess that Spanish is like Italian , and {disfmarker} and so on . I guess Finnish is a {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is a little bit like Hungarian , supposedly , right ?
PhD A: I don't know anything about Finnish .
Professor F: Or is {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} well , I kn oh , well I know that H uh , H I mean , I 'm not a linguist , but I guess Hungarian and Finnish and one of the {disfmarker} one of the languages from the former Soviet Union are in this sort of same family .
PhD A: Hmm .
Professor F: But they 're just these , you know , uh {disfmarker} countries that are pretty far apart from one another , have {disfmarker} I guess , people rode in on horses and brought their {disfmarker}
PhD A: Hmm .
Professor F: OK .
PhD G: The {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad C: Oh , my turn .
Professor F: Your turn .
Grad C: Oh , OK . Um , Let 's see , I {disfmarker} I spent the last week , uh , looking over Stephane 's shoulder . And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and understanding some of the data . I re - installed , um , um , HTK , the free version , so , um , everybody 's now using three point O , which is the same version that , uh , OGI is using .
Professor F: Oh , good .
Grad C: Yeah . So , without {disfmarker} without any licensing big deals , or anything like that . And , um , so we 've been talking about this {disfmarker} this , uh , cube thing , and it 's beginning more and more looking like the , uh , the Borge cube thing . It 's really gargantuan . Um , but I I 'm {disfmarker} Am I {disfmarker}
Professor F: So are {disfmarker} are you going to be assimilated ?
PhD A: Resistance is futile .
Grad C: Exactly . Um , yeah , so I I 've been looking at , uh , uh , TIMIT stuff . Um , the {disfmarker} the stuff that we 've been working on with TIMIT , trying to get a , um {disfmarker} a labels file so we can , uh , train up a {disfmarker} train up a net on TIMIT and test , um , the difference between this net trained on TIMIT and a net trained on digits alone . Um , and seeing if {disfmarker} if it hurts or helps .
Professor F: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Anyway .
Professor F: And again , when y just to clarify , when you 're talking about training up a net , you 're talking about training up a net for a tandem approach ?
Grad C: Yeah , yeah . Um . Mm - hmm .
Professor F: And {disfmarker} and the inputs are PLP and delta and that sort of thing ,
Grad C: Well , the inputs are one dimension of the cube ,
Professor F: or {disfmarker} ?
Grad C: which , um , we 've talked about it being , uh , PLP , um , M F C Cs , um , J - JRASTA , JRASTA - LDA {disfmarker}
PhD G: Hmm .
Professor F: Yeah , but your initial things you 're making one choice there ,
Grad C: Yeah ,
Professor F: right ?
Grad C: right .
Professor F: Which is PLP , or something ?
Grad C: Um , I {disfmarker} I haven't {disfmarker} I haven't decided on {disfmarker} on the initial thing .
Professor F: Yeah .
Grad C: Probably {disfmarker} probably something like PLP . Yeah .
PhD G: Hmm .
Professor F: Yeah . Um , so {disfmarker} so you take PLP and you {disfmarker} you , uh , do it {disfmarker} uh , you {disfmarker} you , uh , use HTK with it with the transformed features using a neural net that 's trained . And the training could either be from Digits itself or from TIMIT .
Grad C: Right .
Professor F: And that 's the {disfmarker} and , and th and then the testing would be these other things which {disfmarker} which {disfmarker} which might be foreign language .
Grad C: Right . Right .
Professor F: I see . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I get in the picture about the cube .
Grad C: Yeah . Maybe {disfmarker}
Professor F: OK .
Grad C: OK . Uh - huh .
Professor F: OK . Um , I mean , those listening to this will not have a picture either , so , um , I guess I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm not any worse off . But but at some point {disfmarker} somebody should just show me the cube . It sounds s I {disfmarker} I get {disfmarker} I think I get the general idea of it ,
Grad C: Yeah , yeah ,
Professor F: yeah .
PhD A: So , when you said that you were getting the labels for TIMIT , {comment} um , are y what do you mean by that ?
Grad C: b May Mm - hmm . Oh , I 'm just {disfmarker} I 'm just , uh , transforming them from the , um , the standard TIMIT transcriptions into {disfmarker} into a nice long huge P - file to do training .
PhD A: Mmm . Were the digits , um , hand - labeled for phones ?
Grad C: Um , the {disfmarker} the digits {disfmarker}
PhD A: Or were they {disfmarker} those labels automatically derived ?
Grad C: Oh yeah , those were {disfmarker} those were automatically derived by {disfmarker} by Dan using , um , embedded {disfmarker} embedded training and alignment .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor F: Ah , but which Dan ?
Grad C: Uh , Ellis . Right ?
Professor F: OK . OK .
Grad C: Yeah . So .
PhD A: I was just wondering because that test you 're t
Grad C: Uh - huh .
PhD A: I {disfmarker} I think you 're doing this test because you want to determine whether or not , uh , having s general speech performs as well as having specific {pause} speech .
Grad C: That 's right .
Professor F: Well , especially when you go over the different languages again , because you 'd {disfmarker} the different languages have different words for the different digits ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm . And I was {disfmarker}
Professor F: so it 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: yeah , so I was just wondering if the fact that TIMIT {disfmarker} you 're using the hand - labeled stuff from TIMIT might be {disfmarker} confuse the results that you get .
Professor F: I {disfmarker} I think it would , but {disfmarker} but on the other hand it might be better .
PhD A: Right , but if it 's better , it may be better because {pause} it was hand - labeled .
Professor F: Oh yeah , but still @ @ probably use it .
PhD A: Yeah . OK .
Professor F: I mean , you know , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I guess I 'm sounding cavalier , but I mean , I think the point is you have , uh , a bunch of labels and {disfmarker} and they 're han hand uh {disfmarker} hand - marked . Uh , I guess , actually , TIMIT was not entirely hand - marked . It was automatically first , and then hand {disfmarker} hand - corrected .
PhD A: Oh , OK .
Professor F: But {disfmarker} but , um , uh , it {disfmarker} it , um , it might be a better source . So , i it 's {disfmarker} you 're right . It would be another interesting scientific question to ask , " Is it because it 's a broad source or because it was , you know , carefully ? "
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: uh . And that 's something you could ask , but given limited time , I think the main thing is if it 's a better thing for going across languages on this training tandem system ,
PhD A: Yeah . Right .
Professor F: then it 's probably {disfmarker}
PhD A: What about the differences in the phone sets ?
Grad C: Uh , between languages ?
PhD A: No , between TIMIT and the {disfmarker} the digits .
Grad C: Oh , um , right . Well , there 's a mapping from the sixty - one phonemes in TIMIT to {disfmarker} to fifty - six , the ICSI fifty - six .
PhD E: Sixty - one .
PhD A: Oh , OK . I see .
Grad C: And then the digits phonemes , um , there 's about twenty twenty - two or twenty - four of them ? Is that right ?
PhD A: Out of that fifty - six ?
PhD G: Yep .
Grad C: Out of that fifty - six .
PhD A: Oh , OK .
Grad C: Yeah . So , it 's {disfmarker} it 's definitely broader , yeah .
PhD G: But , actually , the issue of phoneti phon uh phone phoneme mappings will arise when we will do severa use several languages
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD G: because you {disfmarker} Well , some phonemes are not , uh , in every languages , and {disfmarker} So we plan to develop a subset of the phonemes , uh , that includes , uh , all the phonemes of our training languages ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: and use a network with kind of one hundred outputs or something like that .
Professor F: Mm - hmm . You mean a superset , sort of .
PhD G: Uh , yeah ,
Professor F: Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .
PhD G: superset ,
PhD E: Yeah . I th I looks the SAMPA SAMPA phone .
PhD G: yeah .
PhD E: SAMPA phone ? For English {disfmarker} uh American English , and the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the language who have more phone are the English .
PhD G: Yeah .
PhD A: Mmm .
PhD E: Of the {disfmarker} these language . But n for example , in Spain , the Spanish have several phone that d doesn't appear in the E English and we thought to complete . But for that , it needs {disfmarker} we must r h do a lot of work {vocalsound} because we need to generate new tran transcription for the database that we have .
Professor F: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Other than the language , is there a reason not to use the TIMIT phone set ? Cuz it 's larger ? As opposed to the ICSI {pause} phone set ?
Grad C: Oh , you mean why map the sixty - one to the fifty - six ?
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad C: I don't know . I have {disfmarker}
Professor F: Um , I forget if that happened starting with you , or was it {disfmarker} o or if it was Eric , afterwards who did that . But I think , basically , there were several of the phones that were just hardly ever there .
PhD A: Yeah , and I think some of them , they were making distinctions between silence at the end and silence at the beginning , when really they 're {pause} both silence .
PhD B: Oh .
PhD A: I th I think it was things like that that got it mapped down to fifty - six .
PhD B: OK .
Professor F: Yeah , especially in a system like ours , which is a discriminative system . You know , you 're really asking this net to learn .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor F: It 's {disfmarker} it 's kind of hard .
PhD A: There 's not much difference , really . And {pause} the ones that are gone , I think are {disfmarker} I think there was {disfmarker} they also in TIMIT had like a glottal stop , which was basically a short period of silence ,
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: and so .
PhD B: Well , we have that now , too , right ?
PhD A: I don't know .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD A: So .
Professor F: i It 's actually pretty common that a lot of the recognition systems people use have things like {disfmarker} like , say thirty - nine , phone symbols , right ? Uh , and then they get the variety by {disfmarker} by bringing in the context , the phonetic context . Uh . So we actually have an unusually large number in {disfmarker} in what we tend to use here . Um . So , a a actually {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} now you 've got me sort of intrigued . What {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} Can you describe what {disfmarker} what 's on the cube ?
Grad C: Yeah , w I th I think that 's a good idea
Professor F: I mean {disfmarker}
Grad C: to {disfmarker} to talk about the whole cube
Professor F: Yeah , yeah .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad C: and maybe we could sections in the cube for people to work on .
Professor F: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad C: Um , OK . Uh , do you wanna do it ?
Professor F: OK , so even {disfmarker} even though the meeting recorder doesn't {disfmarker} doesn't , uh {disfmarker} and since you 're not running a video camera we won't get this , but if you use a board it 'll help us anyway .
Grad C: OK .
Professor F: Uh , point out one of the limitations of this {vocalsound} medium ,
Grad C: OK .
Professor F: but you 've got the wireless on ,
Grad C: Yeah , I have the wireless .
Professor F: right ? Yeah , so you can walk around .
Grad C: OK . Can y can you walk around too ? No . OK , well , um ,
Professor F: Uh , he can't , actually , but {disfmarker}
Grad C: s basically , the {disfmarker} the cube will have three dimensions .
Professor F: He 's tethered .
Grad C: The first dimension is the {disfmarker} the features that we 're going to use . And the second dimension , um , is the training corpus . And that 's the training on the discriminant neural net . Um and the last dimension happens to be {disfmarker}
Professor F: Yeah and again {disfmarker} Yeah . So the {disfmarker} the training for HTK is always {disfmarker} that 's always set up for the individual test , right ? That there 's some training data and some test data . So that 's different than this .
Grad C: Right , right . This is {disfmarker} this is for {disfmarker} for ANN only . And , yeah , the training for the HTK models is always , uh , fixed for whatever language you 're testing on .
Professor F: Right .
Grad C: And then , there 's the testing corpus . So , then I think it 's probably instructive to go and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and show you the features that we were talking about . Um , so , let 's see . Help me out with {disfmarker}
PhD G: PLP .
Grad C: With what ?
PhD G: PLP .
Grad C: PLP ? OK .
PhD G: MSG .
Grad C: MSG .
PhD G: Uh , JRASTA .
Grad C: JRASTA .
PhD G: And JRASTA - LDA .
Grad C: JRASTA - LDA .
PhD G: Um , multi - band .
Grad C: Multi - band .
PhD G: So there would be multi - band before , um {disfmarker} before our network , I mean .
Grad C: Yeah , just the multi - band features , right ?
PhD G: And {disfmarker}
Grad C: Yeah .
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor F: Uh - huh . Ah . Ah .
PhD G: So , something like , uh , s TCT within bands and {disfmarker} Well . And then multi - band after networks . Meaning that we would have , uh , neural networks , uh , discriminant neural networks for each band . Uh , yeah . And using the {disfmarker} the outputs of these networks or the linear outputs or something like that . Uh , yeah .
PhD A: What about mel cepstrum ? Or is that {disfmarker}
Grad C: Oh , um {disfmarker}
PhD A: you don't include that because it 's part of the base or something ?
PhD E: Yeah databases .
Professor F: Well , y you do have a baseline system that 's m that 's mel cepstra ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor F: right ?
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: So .
PhD G: But , uh , well , not for the {disfmarker} the ANN . I mean {disfmarker}
Professor F: OK .
PhD G: So , yeah , we could {disfmarker} we could add {pause} MFCC also .
Grad C: We could add {disfmarker}
Professor F: Probably should . I mean at least {disfmarker} at least conceptually , you know , it doesn't meant you actually have to do it ,
PhD G: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor F: but conceptually it makes sense as a {disfmarker} as a base line .
PhD A: It 'd be an interesting test just to have {disfmarker} just to do MFCC with the neural net
PhD E: Without the {disfmarker}
PhD A: and everything else the same .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD A: Compare that with just M - MFCC without the {disfmarker} the net .
PhD G: Yeah .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: I think {disfmarker} I think Dan did some of that .
PhD A: Oh .
Grad C: Um , in his previous Aurora experiments . And with the net it 's {disfmarker} it 's wonderful . Without the net it 's just baseline .
Professor F: Um , I think OGI folks have been doing that , too . D Because I think that for a bunch of their experiments they used , uh , mel cepstra , actually .
Grad C: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor F: Um , of course that 's there and this is here and so on . OK ?
Grad C: OK . Um , for the training corpus {disfmarker} corpus , um , we have , um , the {disfmarker} the d {pause} digits {nonvocalsound} from the various languages . Um , English Spanish um , French What else do we have ?
PhD G: And the {pause} Finnish .
Grad C: Finnish .
PhD A: Where did th where did that come from ?
PhD E: And Italian .
PhD A: Digits ?
PhD E: Uh , no , Italian no . Italian no .
PhD A: Oh .
Grad C: Oh . Italian .
PhD E: I Italian yes . Italian ?
Professor F: Italian .
PhD A: Is that {disfmarker} Was that distributed with Aurora , or {disfmarker} ?
Grad C: One L or two L 's ?
PhD A: Where did that {disfmarker} ?
Professor F: The newer one .
PhD G: So English , uh , Finnish and Italian are Aurora .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: And Spanish and French is something that we can use in addition to Aurora . Uh , well .
Professor F: Yeah , so Carmen brought the Spanish , and Stephane brought the French .
Grad C: OK . And , um , oh yeah , and {disfmarker}
Professor F: Is it French French or Belgian French ? There 's a {disfmarker}
PhD G: It 's , uh , French French .
Grad C: French French .
PhD E: Like Mexican Spain and Spain .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD B: Or Swiss .
PhD E: I think that is more important ,
PhD B: Swiss - German .
PhD E: Mexican Spain . Because more people {disfmarker}
Professor F: Yeah . Yeah , probably so .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor F: Yeah . Yeah , Herve always insists that Belgian is {disfmarker} i is absolutely pure French , has nothing to do with {disfmarker} but he says those {disfmarker} those {disfmarker} those Parisians talk funny .
PhD G: Yeah , yeah , yeah . They have an accent .
Professor F: Yeah they {disfmarker} they do , yeah . Yeah . {pause} But then he likes Belgian fries too , so . OK .
Grad C: And then we have , uh , um , broader {disfmarker} broader corpus , um , like TIMIT . TIMIT so far ,
PhD E: And Spanish too .
Grad C: right ? Spanish {disfmarker} Oh , Spanish stories ?
PhD E: Albayzin is the name .
PhD A: What about TI - digits ?
Grad C: Um , TI - digits {disfmarker} uh all these Aurora f d data p data is from {disfmarker} is derived from TI - digits .
PhD A: Uh - huh . Oh . Oh OK .
Grad C: Um , basically , they {disfmarker} they corrupted it with , uh , different kinds of noises at different SNR levels .
PhD A: Ah . I see .
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor F: y And I think Stephane was saying there 's {disfmarker} there 's some broader s material in the French also ?
PhD G: Yeah , we cou we could use {disfmarker}
Grad C: OK .
PhD G: Yeah . The French data .
PhD E: Spanish stories ?
Grad C: No .
PhD E: No .
Grad C: Sp - Not Spanish stories ?
PhD E: No . No . Albayz
Professor F: Spanish {disfmarker}
Grad C: Spanish something .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad C: OK .
PhD B: Did the Aurora people actually corrupt it themselves , or just specify the signal and the signal - t
Grad C: They {disfmarker} they corrupted it , um , themselves ,
PhD B: OK .
Grad C: but they also included the {disfmarker} the noise files for us , right ? Or {disfmarker}
PhD G: Yeah .
Grad C: so we can go ahead and corrupt other things .
Professor F: I 'm just curious , Carmen {disfmarker} I mean , I couldn't tell if you were joking or {disfmarker} i Is it {disfmarker} is it Mexican Spanish ,
PhD E: No no no no .
Professor F: or is it {disfmarker}
PhD E: No no no no .
Professor F: Oh , no , no . It 's {disfmarker} it 's Spanish from Spain , Spanish .
PhD E: Spanish from Spain .
Professor F: Yeah , OK .
Grad C: From Spain .
Professor F: Alright . Spanish from Spain . Yeah , we 're really covered there now . OK .
Grad C: OK .
Professor F: And the French from France .
PhD G: Yeah , the {disfmarker} No , the French is f yeah , from , uh , Paris ,
Grad C: Oh , from Paris , OK .
Professor F: Yeah .
Grad C: And TIMIT 's from {pause} lots of different places .
PhD G: OK .
Professor F: From TI . From {disfmarker} i It 's from Texas . So may maybe it 's {disfmarker}
PhD B: From the deep South .
Professor F: So - s so it 's not really from the US either .
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor F: Is that {disfmarker} ? OK .
Grad C: Yeah . OK . And , um , with within the training corporas um , we 're , uh , thinking about , um , training with noise . So , incorporating the same kinds of noises that , um , Aurora is in incorporating in their , um {disfmarker} in their training corpus . Um , I don't think we we 're given the , uh {disfmarker} the unseen noise conditions , though , right ?
Professor F: I think what they were saying was that , um , for this next test there 's gonna be some of the cases where they have the same type of noise as you were given before hand and some cases where you 're not .
Grad C: Like {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . OK .
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: So , presumably , that 'll be part of the topic of analysis of the {disfmarker} the test results , is how well you do when it 's matching noise and how well you do where it 's not .
Grad C: Right .
Professor F: I think that 's right .
Grad C: So , I guess we can't train on {disfmarker} on the {disfmarker} the unseen noise conditions .
Professor F: Well , not if it 's not seen ,
Grad C: Right . If {disfmarker} Not if it 's unseen .
Professor F: yeah .
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor F: OK . I mean , i i i i it does seem to me that a lot of times when you train with something that 's at least a little bit noisy it can {disfmarker} it can help you out in other kinds of noise even if it 's not matching just because there 's some more variance that you 've built into things . But , but , uh ,
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: uh , exactly how well it will work will depend on how near it is to what you had ahead of time . So . OK , so that 's your training corpus ,
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: and then your testing corpus {disfmarker} ?
Grad C: Um , the testing corporas are , um , just , um , the same ones as Aurora testing . And , that includes , um , the English Spa - um , Italian . Finnish .
PhD E: Finnish .
Grad C: Uh , we ' r we 're gonna get German , right ? Ge - {comment} At the final test will have German .
Professor F: Well , so , yeah , the final test , on a guess , is supposed to be German and Danish ,
PhD G: Uh , yeah .
Professor F: right ?
Grad C: Right .
PhD G: The s yeah , the Spanish , perhaps ,
Grad C: Spanish . Oh yeah , we can {disfmarker} we can test on s Spanish .
PhD G: we will have . Yeah . But the {disfmarker} the Aurora Spanish , I mean .
Grad C: Oh yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor F: Oh , there 's a {disfmarker} there 's Spanish testing in the Aurora ?
PhD G: Uh , not yet , but , uh , yeah , uh , e
PhD E: Yeah , it 's preparing .
PhD G: pre they are preparing it ,
PhD E: They are preparing .
PhD G: and , well , according to Hynek it will be {disfmarker} we will have this at the end of November , or {disfmarker} Um .
Professor F: OK , so , uh , something like seven things in each , uh {disfmarker} each column .
PhD G: Yeah {disfmarker}
Professor F: So that 's , uh , three hundred and forty - three , uh , {vocalsound} different systems that are going to be developed . There 's three of you .
Grad C: Yeah . One hundred each , about .
Professor F: Uh , so that 's hundred and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} hundred and fourteen each .
Grad D: What a what about noise conditions ?
Professor F: What ?
Grad D: w Don't we need to put in the column for noise conditions ?
Professor F: Are you just trying to be difficult ?
Grad D: No , I just don't understand .
Grad C: Well , th uh , when {disfmarker} when I put these testings on there , I 'm assumi
Professor F: I 'm just kidding . Yeah .
Grad C: There - there 's three {disfmarker} three tests . Um , type - A , type - B , and type - C . And they 're all {disfmarker} they 're all gonna be test tested , um , with one training of the HTK system . Um , there 's a script that tests all three different types of noise conditions . Test - A is like a matched noise . Test - B is a {disfmarker} is a slightly mismatched . And test - C is a , um , mismatched channel .
Grad D: And do we do all our {pause} training on clean data ?
Grad C: Um , no , no ,
PhD E: Also , we can clean that .
Grad C: we 're {disfmarker} we 're gonna be , um , training on the noise files that we do have .
PhD G: No .
Professor F: So , um {disfmarker} Yeah , so I guess the question is how long does it take to do a {disfmarker} a training ? I mean , it 's not totally crazy t I mean , these are {disfmarker} a lot of these are built - in things and we know {disfmarker} we have programs that compute PLP , we have MSG , we have JRA you know , a lot of these things will just kind of happen , won't take uh a huge amount of development , it 's just trying it out . So , we actually can do quite a few experiments .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: But how {disfmarker} how long does it take , do we think , for one of these {pause} {comment} trainings ?
Grad C: That 's a good question .
PhD A: What about combinations of things ?
Professor F: Oh yeah , that 's right . I mean , cuz , so , for instance , I think the major advantage of MSG {disfmarker}
Grad C: Oh !
Professor F: Yeah ,
Grad C: Och !
Professor F: good point . A major advantage of MSG , I see , th that we 've seen in the past is combined with PLP .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor F: Um .
Grad C: Now , this is turning into a four - dimensional cube ?
PhD A: Well , you just select multiple things on the one dimension .
PhD B: Or you just add it to the features .
PhD E: No .
Grad C: Just {disfmarker}
PhD E: Here .
Grad C: Oh , yeah . OK .
Professor F: Yeah , so , I mean , you don't wanna , uh {disfmarker} Let 's see , seven choose two would {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {disfmarker} be , uh , twenty - one different combinations . Um .
PhD B: It 's not a complete set of combinations , though ,
Professor F: Probably {disfmarker}
PhD B: right ? It 's not a complete set of combinations , though ,
Professor F: What ?
PhD B: right ?
Grad C: No .
Professor F: Yeah , I hope not . Yeah , there 's {disfmarker}
Grad C: That would be {disfmarker}
Professor F: Uh , yeah , so PLP and MSG I think we definitely wanna try cuz we 've had a lot of good experience with putting those together .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: Um . Yeah .
PhD A: When you do that , you 're increasing the size of the inputs to the net . Do you have to reduce the hidden layer , or something ?
Professor F: Well , so {disfmarker} I mean , so i it doesn't increase the number of trainings .
PhD A: No , no , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm just wondering about number of parameters in the net . Do you have to worry about keeping that the same , or {disfmarker} ?
Professor F: Uh , I don't think so .
PhD B: There 's a computation limit , though , isn't there ?
Professor F: Yeah , I mean , it 's just more compu Excuse me ?
PhD B: Isn't there like a limit {pause} on the computation load , or d latency , or something like that for Aurora task ?
Professor F: Oh yeah , we haven't talked about any of that at all , have we ?
Grad C: No .
Professor F: Yeah , so , there 's not really a limit . What it is is that there 's {disfmarker} there 's , uh {disfmarker} it 's just penalty , you know ? That {disfmarker} that if you 're using , uh , a megabyte , then they 'll say that 's very nice , but , of course , it will never go on a cheap cell phone .
PhD B: OK .
Professor F: Um . And , u uh , I think the computation isn't so much of a problem . I think it 's more the memory . Uh , and , expensive cell phones , exa expensive hand - helds , and so forth , are gonna have lots of memory . So it 's just that , uh , these people see the {disfmarker} the cheap cell phones as being still the biggest market , so .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: Um . But , yeah , I was just realizing that , actually , it doesn't explode out , um {disfmarker} It 's not really two to the seventh . But it 's {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} i i it doesn't really explode out the number of trainings cuz these were all trained individually . Right ? So , uh , if you have all of these nets trained some place , then , uh , you can combine their outputs and do the KL transformation and so forth
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: and {disfmarker} and , uh {disfmarker} So , what it {disfmarker} it blows out is the number of uh testings . And , you know {disfmarker} and the number of times you do that last part . But that last part , I think , is so {disfmarker} has gotta be pretty quick , so . Uh . Right ? I mean , it 's just running the data through {disfmarker}
Grad C: Oh .
PhD A: But wh what about a net that 's trained on multiple languages , though ?
Professor F: Well , you gotta do the KL transformation ,
PhD G: Eight {disfmarker} y
Professor F: but {disfmarker}
PhD A: Is that just separate nets for each language then combined , or is that actually one net trained on ?
PhD E: Necessary to put in .
Professor F: Good question .
PhD G: Uh , probably one net . Well . Uh .
Professor F: One would think one net ,
PhD G: So .
Professor F: but we 've {disfmarker} I don't think we 've tested that . Right ?
PhD G: So , in the broader training corpus we can {disfmarker} we can use , uh , the three , or , a combination of {disfmarker} of two {disfmarker} two languages .
PhD E: Database three .
PhD A: In one net . Mm - hmm .
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor F: Yeah , so , I guess the first thing is if w if we know how much a {disfmarker} how long a {disfmarker} a training takes , if we can train up all these {disfmarker} these combinations , uh , then we can start working on testing of them individually , and in combination . Right ?
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: Because the putting them in combination , I think , is not as much computationally as the r training of the nets in the first place . Right ?
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor F: So y you do have to compute the KL transformation . Uh , which is a little bit , but it 's not too much .
PhD G: It 's not too much ,
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: no .
Professor F: So it 's {disfmarker}
PhD G: But {disfmarker} Yeah . But there is the testing also , which implies training , uh , the HTK models
PhD E: The {disfmarker} the model {disfmarker} the HTK model .
PhD G: and , well ,
Professor F: Uh , right .
PhD G: it 's {disfmarker}
Professor F: Right . So if you do have lots of combinations , it 's {disfmarker}
PhD G: yeah . But it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not so long . It @ @ {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor F: How long does it take for an , uh , HTK training ?
PhD G: It 's around six hours , I think .
PhD E: It depends on the {disfmarker}
PhD G: For training and testing , yeah .
PhD E: More than six hours .
PhD G: More .
PhD E: For the Italian , yes . Maybe one day .
PhD G: One day ?
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor F: For HTK ?
PhD E: Well .
Professor F: Really ? Running on what ?
PhD E: Uh , M {disfmarker} MFCC .
Professor F: No , I 'm sorry , ru running on what machine ?
PhD E: Uh , Ravioli .
Professor F: Uh , I don't know what Ravioli is . Is it {disfmarker} is it an Ultra - five , or is it a {disfmarker} ?
PhD E: mmm Um . Who is that ?
PhD A: I don't know .
Grad C: I don't know .
PhD E: I don't know .
PhD B: I don't know what a Ravioli is .
PhD E: I don't know .
Grad C: I don't know .
PhD B: We can check really quickly , I guess .
PhD G: Yeah , I I think it 's - it 's - it 's not so long because , well , the TI - digits test data is about , uh how many hours ? Uh , th uh , thirty hours of speech , I think ,
Professor F: It 's a few hours .
PhD B: Hmm .
Professor F: Yeah . {vocalsound} Right ,
PhD G: something like that . And it p Well .
Professor F: so , I mean , clearly , there {disfmarker} there 's no way we can even begin to do an any significant amount here unless we use multiple machines .
PhD G: It 's six hours .
Professor F: Right ? So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} w we {disfmarker} I mean there 's plenty of machines here and they 're n they 're often not in {disfmarker} in a great {disfmarker} great deal of use . So , I mean , I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's key that {disfmarker} that the {disfmarker} that you look at , uh , you know , what machines are fast , what machines are used a lot {disfmarker} Uh , are we still using P - make ? Is that {disfmarker} ?
Grad C: Oh , I don't know how w how we would P - make this , though . Um .
Professor F: Well , you have a {disfmarker} I mean , once you get the basic thing set up , you have just all the {disfmarker} uh , a all these combinations ,
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor F: right ?
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: Um . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} let 's say it 's six hours or eight hours , or something for the training of HTK . How long is it for training of {disfmarker} of , uh , the neural net ?
Grad C: The neural net ? Um .
PhD G: I would say two days .
PhD A: Depends on the corpuses , right ?
PhD E: It depends .
PhD B: It s also depends on the net .
PhD G: Yeah .
Grad C: Yeah .
PhD E: Depends on the corpus .
PhD B: How big is the net ?
PhD E: For Albayzin I trained on neural network , uh , was , um , one day also .
Professor F: Uh , but on what machine ?
Grad C: On a SPERT board .
PhD E: Uh . I {disfmarker} I think the neural net SPERT .
Grad C: Y you did a {disfmarker} you did it on a SPERT board .
PhD E: Yes .
Professor F: OK , again , we do have a bunch of SPERT boards .
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor F: And I think there {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} I think you folks are probably go the ones using them right now .
PhD A: Is it faster to do it on the SPERT , or {disfmarker} ?
Professor F: Uh , don't know .
Grad C: It 's {disfmarker} it 's still a little faster on the
Professor F: Used to be .
PhD A: Is it ?
Grad C: Yeah , yeah . Ad - Adam {disfmarker} Adam did some testing . Or either Adam or {disfmarker} or Dan did some testing and they found that the SPERT board 's still {disfmarker} still faster .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: And the benefits is that , you know , you run out of SPERT and then you can do other things on your {disfmarker} your computer ,
Professor F: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: and you don't {disfmarker}
Professor F: Yeah . So you could be {disfmarker} we have quite a few SPERT boards . You could set up , uh , you know , ten different jobs , or something , to run on SPERT {disfmarker} different SPERT boards and {disfmarker} and have ten other jobs running on different computers . So , it 's got to take that sort of thing , or {disfmarker} or we 're not going to get through any significant number of these .
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor F: So this is {disfmarker} Yeah , I mean , I kind of like this because what it {disfmarker} No {disfmarker}
Grad C: OK .
Professor F: uh , no , what I like about it is we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we do have a problem that we have very limited time . You know , so , with very limited time , we actually have really quite a {disfmarker} quite a bit of computational resource available if you , you know , get a look across the institute and how little things are being used . And uh , on the other hand , almost anything that really i you know , is {disfmarker} is new , where we 're saying , " Well , let 's look at , like we were talking before about , uh , uh , voiced - unvoiced - silence detection features and all those sort {disfmarker} " that 's {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor F: I think it 's a great thing to go to . But if it 's new , then we have this development and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and learning process t to {disfmarker} to go through on top of {disfmarker} just the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} all the {disfmarker} all the work . So , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't see how we 'd do it . So what I like about this is you basically have listed all the things that we already know how to do .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor F: And {disfmarker} and all the kinds of data that we , at this point , already have . And , uh , you 're just saying let 's look at the outer product of all of these things and see if we can calculate them . a a Am I {disfmarker} am I interpreting this correctly ? Is this sort of what {disfmarker} what you 're thinking of doing in the short term ?
PhD G: Mmm .
Professor F: OK .
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor F: So {disfmarker} so then I think it 's just the {disfmarker} the missing piece is that you need to , uh , you know {disfmarker} you know , talk to {disfmarker} talk to , uh , Chuck , talk to , uh , Adam , uh , sort out about , uh , what 's the best way to really , you know , attack this as a {disfmarker} as a {disfmarker} as a mass problem in terms of using many machines . Uh , and uh , then , you know , set it up in terms of scripts and so forth , and {disfmarker} uh , in {disfmarker} in kind o some kind of structured way . Uh . Um , and , you know , when we go to , uh , OGI next week , uh , we can then present to them , you know , what it is that we 're doing . And , uh , we can pull things out of this list that we think they are doing sufficiently ,
Grad C: Mmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor F: that , you know , we 're not {disfmarker} we won't be contributing that much . Um . And , uh {disfmarker} Then , uh , like , we 're there .
PhD B: How big are the nets you 're using ?
Grad C: Um , for the {disfmarker} for nets trained on digits , {comment} um , we have been using , uh , four hundred order hidden units . And , um , for the broader class nets we 're {disfmarker} we 're going to increase that because the , um , the digits nets only correspond to about twenty phonemes .
PhD B: Uh - huh .
Grad C: So .
Professor F: Broader class ?
Grad C: Um , the broader {disfmarker} broader training corpus nets like TIMIT . Um , w we 're gonna {disfmarker}
Professor F: Oh , it 's not actually broader class , it 's actually finer class , but you mean {disfmarker} y You mean {vocalsound} more classes .
Grad C: Right . Right . Yeah . More classes . Right , right . More classes .
Professor F: Yeah .
Grad C: That 's what I mean .
Professor F: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad C: Mm - hmm . And . Yeah .
Professor F: Carmen , did you {disfmarker} do you have something else to add ? We {disfmarker} you haven't talked too much , and {disfmarker}
PhD E: D I begin to work with the Italian database to {disfmarker} nnn , to {disfmarker} with the f front - end and with the HTK program and the @ @ . And I trained eh , with the Spanish two neural network with PLP and with LogRASTA PLP . I don't know exactly what is better if {disfmarker} if LogRASTA or JRASTA .
Professor F: Well , um , JRASTA has the potential to do better , but it doesn't always . It 's {disfmarker} i i JRASTA is more complicated . It 's {disfmarker} it 's , uh {disfmarker} instead of doing RASTA with a log , you 're doing RASTA with a log - like function that varies depending on a J parameter , uh , which is supposed to be sensitive to the amount of noise there is . So , it 's sort of like the right transformation to do the filtering in , is dependent on how much noise there is .
PhD E: Hm - hmm .
Professor F: And so in JRASTA you attempt to do that . It 's a little complicated because once you do that , you end up in some funny domain and you end up having to do a transformation afterwards , which requires some tables . And , uh ,
PhD E: Hm - hmm .
Professor F: so it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little messier , uh , there 's more ways that it can go wrong , uh , but if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you 're careful with it , it can do better .
PhD E: It 's a bit {disfmarker} I 'll do better .
Professor F: So , it 's {disfmarker} So .
PhD E: Um , and I think to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to recognize the Italian digits with the neural netw Spanish neural network , and also to train another neural network with the Spanish digits , the database of Spanish digits . And I working that .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD E: But prepa to prepare the {disfmarker} the database are difficult . Was for me , n it was a difficult work last week with the labels because the {disfmarker} the program with the label obtained that I have , the Albayzin , is different w to the label to train the neural network . And {pause} {vocalsound} that is another work that we must to do , to {disfmarker} to change .
Professor F: I {disfmarker} I didn't understand .
PhD E: Uh , for example Albayzin database was labeled automatically with HTK . It 's not hand {disfmarker} it 's not labels by hand .
Professor F: Oh , " l labeled " .
PhD E: Labels .
Professor F: I 'm sorry ,
PhD E: I 'm sorry ,
Professor F: I have a p I had a problem with {vocalsound} the pronunciation .
PhD E: I 'm sorry . The labels . I 'm sorry . The labels .
Professor F: Yeah , OK .
PhD E: Oh , also that {disfmarker}
Professor F: So , OK , so let 's start over .
PhD E: Yes .
Professor F: So , TI TIMI TIMIT 's hand - labeled , and {disfmarker} and you 're saying about the Spanish ?
PhD E: The Spanish labels ? That was in different format , that the format for the em {disfmarker} the program to train the neural network .
Professor F: Oh , I see .
PhD E: I necessary to convert . And someti well {disfmarker}
PhD A: So you 're just having a problem converting the labels .
PhD E: It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , but n yes , because they have one program , Feacalc , but no , l LabeCut , l LabeCut , but don't {disfmarker} doesn't , eh , include the HTK format to convert .
Professor F: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Hmm .
PhD E: And , I don't know what . I ask {disfmarker} e even I ask to Dan Ellis what I can do that , and h they {disfmarker} he say me that h he does doesn't any {disfmarker} any s any form to {disfmarker} to do that . And at the end , I think that with LabeCut I can transfer to ASCII format , and HTK is an ASCII format . And I m do another , uh , one program to put ASCII format of HTK to ase ay ac ASCII format to Exceed
Professor F: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: and they used LabCut to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to pass .
Professor F: OK , yeah .
PhD E: Actually that was complicated ,
Professor F: So you
PhD E: but well , I know how we can did that {disfmarker} do that .
Professor F: Sure . So it 's just usual kind of uh {disfmarker} sometimes say housekeeping , right ? To get these {disfmarker} get these things sorted out .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor F: So it seems like there 's {disfmarker} there 's some peculiarities of the , uh {disfmarker} of each of these dimensions that are getting sorted out . And then , um , if {disfmarker} if you work on getting the , uh , assembly lines together , and then the {disfmarker} the pieces sort of get ready to go into the assembly line and gradually can start , you know , start turning the crank , more or less . And , uh , uh , we have a lot more computational capability here than they do at OGI , so I think that i if {disfmarker} What 's {disfmarker} what 's great about this is it sets it up in a very systematic way , so that , uh , once these {disfmarker} all of these , you know , mundane but real problems get sorted out , we can just start turning the crank
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: and {disfmarker} and push all of us through , and then finally figure out what 's best .
Grad C: Yeah . Um , I {disfmarker} I was thinking two things . Uh , the first thing was , um {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we actually had thought of this as sort of like , um {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not in stages , {comment} but more along the {disfmarker} the time axis . Just kind of like one stream at a time ,
Professor F: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: je - je - je - je - je {comment} check out the results and {disfmarker} and go that way .
Professor F: Oh , yeah , yeah , sure . No , I 'm just saying , I 'm just thinking of it like loops ,
Grad C: Uh - huh .
Professor F: right ? And so , y y y if you had three nested loops , that you have a choice for this , a choice for this , and a choice for that ,
Grad C: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor F: right ? And you 're going through them all . That {disfmarker} that 's what I meant .
Grad C: Right , right .
Professor F: And , uh , the thing is that once you get a better handle on how much you can realistically do , uh , um , {vocalsound} concurrently on different machines , different SPERTs , and so forth , uh , and you see how long it takes on what machine and so forth , you can stand back from it and say , " OK , if we look at all these combinations we 're talking about , and combinations of combinations , and so forth , " you 'll probably find you can't do it all .
Grad C: Mm - hmm . OK .
Professor F: OK , so then at that point , uh , we should sort out which ones do we throw away .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: Which of the combinations across {disfmarker} you know , what are the most likely ones , and {disfmarker} And , uh , I still think we could do a lot of them . I mean , it wouldn't surprise me if we could do a hundred of them or something . But , probably when you include all the combinations , you 're actually talking about a thousand of them or something , and that 's probably more than we can do . Uh , but a hundred is a lot . And {disfmarker} and , uh , um {disfmarker}
Grad C: OK .
Professor F: Yeah .
Grad C: Yeah , and the {disfmarker} the second thing was about scratch space . And I think you sent an email about , um , e scratch space for {disfmarker} for people to work on . And I know that , uh , Stephane 's working from an NT machine , so his {disfmarker} his home directory exists somewhere else .
Professor F: His {disfmarker} his stuff is somewhere else , yeah . Yeah , I mean , my point I {disfmarker} I want to {disfmarker} Yeah , thanks for bring it back to that . My {disfmarker} th I want to clarify my point about that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that Chuck repeated in his note . Um . We 're {disfmarker} over the next year or two , we 're gonna be upgrading the networks in this place ,
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: but right now they 're still all te pretty much all ten megabit lines . And we have reached the {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} the machines are getting faster and faster . So , it actually has reached the point where it 's a significant drag on the time for something to move the data from one place to another .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: So , you {disfmarker} you don't w especially in something with repetitive computation where you 're going over it multiple times , you do {disfmarker} don't want to have the {disfmarker} the data that you 're working on distant from where it 's being {disfmarker} where the computation 's being done if you can help it .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: Uh . Now , we are getting more disk for the central file server , which , since it 's not a computational server , would seem to be a contradiction to what I just said . But the idea is that , uh , suppose you 're working with , uh , this big bunch of multi multilingual databases . Um , you put them all in the central ser at the cen central file server .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: Then , when you 're working with something and accessing it many times , you copy the piece of it that you 're working with over to some place that 's close to where the computation is and then do all the work there . And then that way you {disfmarker} you won't have the {disfmarker} the network {disfmarker} you won't be clogging the network for yourself and others .
Grad C: Mmm .
Professor F: That 's the idea . So , uh , it 's gonna take us {disfmarker} It may be too late for this , uh , p precise crunch we 're in now , but , uh , we 're , uh {disfmarker} It 's gonna take us a couple weeks at least to get the , uh , uh , the amount of disk we 're gonna be getting . We 're actually gonna get , uh , I think four more , uh , thirty - six gigabyte drives and , uh , put them on another {disfmarker} another disk rack . We ran out of space on the disk rack that we had , so we 're getting another disk rack and {vocalsound} four more drives to share between , uh {disfmarker} primarily between this project and the Meetings {disfmarker} Meetings Project . Um . But , uh , we 've put another {disfmarker} I guess there 's another eighteen gigabytes that 's {disfmarker} that 's in there now to help us with the immediate crunch . But , uh , are you saying {disfmarker} So I don't know where {pause} you 're {disfmarker} Stephane , where you 're doing your computations . If {disfmarker} i so , you 're on an NT machine , so you 're using some external machine
PhD G: Yeah , it , uh {disfmarker} Well , to {disfmarker} It 's Nutmeg and Mustard , I think ,
Professor F: Do you know these yet ?
PhD G: I don't know what kind .
PhD A: Nuh - uh .
Professor F: Yeah , OK . Uh , are these {disfmarker} are these , uh , computational servers , or something ? I 'm {disfmarker} I 've been kind of out of it .
PhD G: Yeah , I think , yeah . I think so .
Professor F: Unfortunately , these days my idea of running comput of computa doing computation is running a spread sheet .
PhD G: Mmm .
Professor F: So .
PhD G: Mmm .
Professor F: Uh , haven't been {disfmarker} haven't been doing much computing personally , so . Um . Yeah , so those are computational servers . So I guess the other question is what disk there i space there is there on the computational servers .
PhD A: Right . Yeah , I 'm not sure what 's available on {disfmarker} is it {disfmarker} you said Nutmeg and what was the other one ?
PhD G: Mustard .
PhD A: Mustard . OK .
PhD B: Huh .
Professor F: Yeah , Well , you 're the {disfmarker} you 're the disk czar now .
PhD A: Right , right .
Professor F: So
PhD A: Well , I 'll check on that .
Professor F: Yeah . Yeah , so basically , uh , Chuck will be the one who will be sorting out what disk needs to be where , and so on , and I 'll be the one who says , " OK , spend the money . " So . {vocalsound} Which , I mean , n these days , uh , if you 're talking about scratch space , it doesn't increase the , uh , need for backup , and , uh , I think it 's not that big a d and the {disfmarker} the disks themselves are not that expensive . Right now it 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: What you can do , when you 're on that machine , is , uh , just go to the slash - scratch directory , and do a DF minus K , and it 'll tell you if there 's space available .
PhD G: Yeah .
PhD A: Uh , and if there is then , uh {disfmarker}
Professor F: But wasn't it , uh {disfmarker} I think Dave was saying that he preferred that people didn't put stuff in slash - scratch . It 's more putting in d s XA or XB or ,
PhD A: Well , there 's different {disfmarker} there , um , there 's {disfmarker}
Professor F: right ?
PhD A: Right . So there 's the slash - X - whatever disks , and then there 's slash - scratch . And both of those two kinds are not backed up . And if it 's called " slash - scratch " , it means it 's probably an internal disk to the machine . Um . And so that 's the kind of thing where , like if {disfmarker} um , OK , if you don't have an NT , but you have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a Unix workstation , and they attach an external disk , {comment} it 'll be called " slash - X - something " uh , if it 's not backed up and it 'll be " slash - D - something " if it is backed up . And if it 's inside the machine on the desk , it 's called " slash - scratch " . But the problem is , if you ever get a new machine , they take your machine away . It 's easy to unhook the external disks , put them back on the new machine , but then your slash - scratch is gone . So , you don't wanna put anything in slash - scratch that you wanna keep around for a long period of time . But if it 's a copy of , say , some data that 's on a server , you can put it on slash - scratch because , um , first of all it 's not backed up , and second it doesn't matter if that machine disappears and you get a new machine because you just recopy it to slash - scratch . So tha that 's why I was saying you could check slash - scratch on those {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on , um , Mustard and {disfmarker} and Nutmeg to see if {disfmarker} if there 's space that you could use there .
Professor F: I see .
PhD A: You could also use slash - X - whatever disks on Mustard and Nutmeg .
PhD G: Yeah , yeah .
PhD A: Um . Yeah , and we do have {disfmarker} I mean , yeah , so {disfmarker} so you {disfmarker} yeah , it 's better to have things local if you 're gonna run over them lots of times so you don't have to go to the network .
Professor F: Right , so es so especially if you 're {disfmarker} right , if you 're {disfmarker} if you 're taking some piece of the training corpus , which usually resides in where Chuck is putting it all on the {disfmarker} on the , uh , file server , uh , then , yeah , it 's fine if it 's not backed up because if it g g gets wiped out or something , y I mean it is backed up on the other disk . So ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: yeah , OK .
PhD A: Yeah , so , {vocalsound} one of the things that I need to {disfmarker} I 've started looking at {disfmarker} Uh , is this the appropriate time to talk about the disk space stuff ?
Professor F: Sure .
PhD A: I 've started looking at , um , disk space . Dan {disfmarker} David , um , put a new , um , drive onto Abbott , that 's an X disk , which means it 's not backed up . So , um , I 've been going through and copying data that is , you know , some kind of corpus stuff usually , that {disfmarker} that we 've got on a CD - ROM or something , onto that new disk to free up space {pause} on other disks . And , um , so far , um , I 've copied a couple of Carmen 's , um , databases over there . We haven't deleted them off of the slash - DC disk that they 're on right now in Abbott , um , uh , but we {disfmarker} I would like to go through {disfmarker} sit down with you about some of these other ones and see if we can move them onto , um , this new disk also . There 's {disfmarker} there 's a lot more space there ,
PhD G: Yeah , OK .
PhD A: and it 'll free up more space for doing the experiments and things . So , anything that {disfmarker} that you don't need backed up , we can put on this new disk . Um , but if it 's experiments and you 're creating files and things that you 're gonna need , you probably wanna have those on a disk that 's backed up , just in case something {comment} goes wrong . So . Um So far I 've {disfmarker} I 've copied a couple of things , but I haven't deleted anything off of the old disk to make room yet . Um , and I haven't looked at the {disfmarker} any of the Aurora stuff , except for the Spanish . So I {disfmarker} I guess I 'll need to get together with you and see what data we can move onto the new disk .
PhD G: Yeah , OK .
Professor F: Um , yeah , I {disfmarker} I just {disfmarker} an another question occurred to me is {disfmarker} is what were you folks planning to do about normalization ?
PhD G: Um . Well , we were thinking about using this systematically for all the experiments . Um .
Professor F: This being {disfmarker} ?
PhD G: So , but {disfmarker} Uh . So that this could be another dimension , but we think perhaps we can use the {disfmarker} the best , uh , um , uh , normalization scheme as OGI is using , so , with parameters that they use there ,
Professor F: Yeah , I think that 's a good idea .
PhD G: u {vocalsound} u
Professor F: I mean it 's i i we {disfmarker} we seem to have enough dimensions as it is . So probably if we {vocalsound} sort of take their {disfmarker}
PhD G: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Professor F: probably the on - line {disfmarker} line normalization because then it {disfmarker} {comment} it 's {disfmarker} if we do anything else , we 're gonna end up having to do on - line normalization too , so we may as well just do on - line normalization .
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: So . Um . So that it 's plausible for the final thing . Good . Um . So , I guess , yeah , th the other topic {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} maybe we 're already there , or almost there , is goals for the {disfmarker} for next week 's meeting . Uh . i i i it seems to me that we wanna do is flush out what you put on the board here . Uh . You know , maybe , have it be somewhat visual , a little bit .
Grad C: OK . Like a s like a slide ?
Professor F: Uh , so w we can say what we 're doing ,
Grad C: OK .
Professor F: yeah . And , um , also , if you have {pause} sorted out , um , this information about how long i roughly how long it takes to do on what and , you know , what we can {disfmarker} how many of these trainings , uh , uh , and testings and so forth that we can realistically do , uh , then one of the big goals of going there next week would be to {disfmarker} to actually settle on which of them we 're gonna do . And , uh , when we come back we can charge in and do it . Um . Anything else that {disfmarker} I a a Actually {disfmarker} started out this {disfmarker} this field trip started off with {disfmarker} with , uh , Stephane talking to Hynek , so you may have {disfmarker} you may have had other goals , uh , for going up , and any anything else you can think of would be {disfmarker} we should think about {pause} accomplishing ? I mean , I 'm just saying this because {pause} maybe there 's things we need to do in preparation .
PhD G: Oh , I think basically , this is {disfmarker} this is , uh , yeah .
Professor F: OK . OK . Uh . Alright . And uh {disfmarker} and the other {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the last topic I had here was , um , uh d Dave 's fine offer to {disfmarker} to , uh , do something {pause} {vocalsound} on this . I mean he 's doing {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {disfmarker} he 's working on other things , but to {disfmarker} to do something on this project . So the question is , " Where {disfmarker} where could we , uh , uh , most use Dave 's help ? "
PhD G: Um , yeah , I was thinking perhaps if , um , additionally to all these experiments , which is not really research , well I mean it 's , uh , running programs
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: and , um , {vocalsound} trying to have a closer look at the {disfmarker} perhaps the , um , {vocalsound} speech , uh , noise detection or , uh , voiced - sound - unvoiced - sound detection and {disfmarker} Which could be important in {disfmarker} i for noise {disfmarker} noise {disfmarker}
PhD A: I think that would be a {disfmarker} I think that 's a big {disfmarker} big deal . Because the {disfmarker} you know , the thing that Sunil was talking about , uh , with the labels , uh , labeling the database when it got to the noisy stuff ? The {disfmarker} That {disfmarker} that really throws things off . You know , having the noise all of a sudden , your {disfmarker} your , um , speech detector , I mean the {disfmarker} the , um {disfmarker} What was it ? What was happening with his thing ?
Professor F:
PhD A: He was running through these models very quickly . He was getting lots of , uh , uh insertions , is what it was , in his recognitions .
Professor F: The only problem {disfmarker} I mean , maybe that 's the right thing {disfmarker} the only problem I have with it is exactly the same reason why you thought it 'd be a good thing to do . Um , I {disfmarker} I think that {disfmarker} Let 's fall back to that . But I think the first responsibility is sort of to figure out if there 's something {pause} that , uh , an {disfmarker} an additional {disfmarker} Uh , that 's a good thing you {disfmarker} remove the mike . Go ahead , good . Uh , uh . What an additional clever person could help with when we 're really in a crunch for time . Right ? Cuz Dave 's gonna be around for a long time ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor F: right ? He 's {disfmarker} he 's gonna be here for years . And so , um ,
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor F: over years , if he 's {disfmarker} if he 's interested in , you know , voiced - unvoiced - silence , he could do a lot . But if there {disfmarker} if in fact there 's something else {pause} that he could be doing , that would help us when we 're {disfmarker} we 're sort of uh strapped for time {disfmarker} We have {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we 've , you know , only , {pause} uh , another {disfmarker} another month or two {pause} to {disfmarker} you know , with the holidays in the middle of it , um , to {disfmarker} to get a lot done . If we can think of something {disfmarker} some piece of this that 's going to be {disfmarker} The very fact that it is sort of just work , and i and it 's running programs and so forth , is exactly why {pause} it 's possible that it {disfmarker} some piece of could be handed to someone to do , because it 's not {disfmarker} Uh , yeah , so that {disfmarker} that 's the question . And we don't have to solve it right this s second , but if we could think of some {disfmarker} some piece that 's {disfmarker} that 's well defined , that he could help with , he 's expressing a will willingness to do that .
PhD A: What about training up a , um , a multilingual net ?
Professor F: Uh .
PhD E: Yes , maybe to , mmm , put together the {disfmarker} the label {disfmarker} the labels between TIMIT and Spanish or something like that .
PhD G: Yeah . Yeah , so defining the superset ,
PhD E: Yes .
PhD G: and , uh , joining the data and {disfmarker} Mmm .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor F: Uh . Yeah , that 's something that needs to be done in any event .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor F: So what we were just saying is that {disfmarker} that , um {disfmarker} I was arguing for , {pause} if possible , coming up with something that {disfmarker} that really was development and wasn't research because we {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we have a time crunch . And so , uh , if there 's something that would {disfmarker} would save some time that someone else could do on some other piece , then we should think of that first . See the thing with voiced - unvoiced - silence is I really think that {disfmarker} that it 's {disfmarker} to do {disfmarker} to do a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a poor job is {disfmarker} is pretty quick , uh , or , you know , a so - so job . You can {disfmarker} you can {disfmarker} you can throw in a couple fea we know what {disfmarker} what kinds of features help with it .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor F: You can throw something in . You can do pretty well . But I remember , in fact , when you were working on that , and you worked on for few months , as I recall , and you got to , say ninety - three percent , and getting to ninety - four {pause} {vocalsound} really really hard .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . Another year .
Professor F: Yeah , yeah . So , um {disfmarker} And th th the other tricky thing is , since we are , uh , even though we 're not {disfmarker} we don't have a strict prohibition on memory size , and {disfmarker} and computational complexity , uh , clearly there 's some limitation to it . So if we have to {disfmarker} if we say we have to have a pitch detector , say , if we {disfmarker} if we 're trying to incorporate pitch information , or at least some kind of harmonic {disfmarker} harmonicity , or something , this is another whole thing , take a while to develop . Anyway , it 's a very very interesting topic . I mean , one {disfmarker} I think one of the {disfmarker} a lot of people would say , and I think Dan would also , uh , that one of the things wrong with current speech recognition is that we {disfmarker} we really do throw away all the harmonicity information . Uh , we try to get spectral envelopes . Reason for doing that is that most of the information about the phonetic identity is in the spectral envelopes are not in the harmonic detail . But the harmonic detail does tell you something . Like the fact that there is harmonic detail is {disfmarker} is real important . So . Um . So , uh . So I think {disfmarker} Yeah . So {disfmarker} wh that {disfmarker} so the {disfmarker} the other suggestion that just came up was , well what about having him {pause} work on the , uh , {pause} multilingual super f superset {pause} kind of thing . Uh , coming up with that and then , you know , training it {disfmarker} training a net on that , say , um , from {disfmarker} from , uh {disfmarker} from TIMIT or something . Is that {disfmarker} or uh , for multiple databases . What {disfmarker} what would you {disfmarker} what would you think it would {disfmarker} wh what would this task consist of ?
PhD G: Yeah , it would consist in , uh , well , um , creating the {disfmarker} the superset , and , uh , modifying the lab labels for matching the superset . Uh .
Professor F: Uh , creating a superset from looking at the multiple languages ,
PhD G: Well , creating the mappings , actually .
Professor F: and then creating i m changing labels on TIMIT ?
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor F: Or on {disfmarker} or on multiple language {disfmarker} {vocalsound} multiple languages ?
PhD E: No . The multiple language .
PhD G: Yeah , yeah , with the @ @ three languages ,
PhD E: Maybe for the other language because TIMIT have more phone .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD A: So you 'd have to create a mapping from each language to the superset .
Professor F: Uh .
PhD E: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
PhD G: From each language to the superset ,
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD G: yeah .
Grad C: There 's , um {disfmarker} Carmen was talking about this SAMPA thing , and it 's , um , {vocalsound} it 's an effort by linguists to come up with , um , a machine readable IPA , um , sort of thing , right ? And , um , they {disfmarker} they have a web site that Stephane was showing us that has , um {disfmarker} has all the English phonemes and their SAMPA correspondent , um , phoneme ,
Professor F: Yeah .
Grad C: and then , um , they have Spanish , they have German , they have all {disfmarker} all sorts of languages , um , mapping {disfmarker} mapping to the SAMPA phonemes , which {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah , the tr the transcription , though , for Albayzin is n the transcription are of SAMPA the same , uh , how you say , symbol that SAMPA appear .
PhD B: SAMPA ? What does " SAMPA " mean ?
Professor F: Mm - hmm . Hmm .
PhD E: But I don't know if TIMIT o how is TIMIT .
PhD B: So , I mean {disfmarker}
Professor F: What {disfmarker}
PhD B: I 'm sorry .
Professor F: Go ahead .
PhD B: I was gonna say , does that mean IPA is not really international ?
Grad C: No , it 's {disfmarker} it 's saying {disfmarker}
PhD A: It uses special diacritics and stuff , which you can't do with ASCII characters .
Grad C: y can't print on ASCII .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD A: So the SAMPA 's just mapping those .
PhD B: Oh , I see . Got it .
Professor F: What , uh {disfmarker} Has OGI done anything about this issue ? Do they have {disfmarker} Do they have any kind of superset that they already have ?
PhD G: I don't think so . Well , they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they 're going actually the {disfmarker} the other way , defining uh , phoneme clusters , apparently . Well .
Professor F: Aha . That 's right . Uh , and that 's an interesting {pause} way to go too .
PhD A: So they just throw the speech from all different languages together , then cluster it into sixty or fifty or whatever clusters ?
PhD G: I think they 've not done it , uh , doing , uh , multiple language yet , but what they did is to training , uh , English nets with all the phonemes , and then training it in English nets with , uh , kind of seventeen , I think it was {disfmarker} seventeen , uh , broad classes .
PhD A: Automatically derived {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . Automatically derived broad classes , or {disfmarker} ?
PhD G: Yeah . Yeah , I think so .
PhD A: Uh - huh .
PhD G: Uh , and , yeah . And the result was that apparently , when testing on cross - language it was better . I think so . But Hynek didn't add {disfmarker} didn't have all the results when he showed me that , so , well .
Professor F: So that does make an interesting question , though .
PhD G: But {disfmarker}
Professor F: Is there 's some way that we should tie into that with this . Um . Right ? I mean , if {disfmarker} if in fact that is a better thing to do , {pause} should we leverage that , rather than doing , {pause} um , our own . Right ? So , if i if {disfmarker} if they s I mean , we have {disfmarker} {pause} i we have the {disfmarker} the trainings with our own categories . And now we 're saying , " Well , how do we handle cross - language ? " And one way is to come up with a superset , but they are als they 're trying coming up with clustered , and do we think there 's something wrong with that ?
PhD G: I think that there 's something wrong
Professor F: OK . What w
PhD G: or {disfmarker} Well , because {disfmarker} Well , for the moment we are testing on digits , and e i perhaps u using broad phoneme classes , it 's {disfmarker} it 's OK for um , uh classifying the digits , but as soon as you will have more words , well , words can differ with only a single phoneme , and {disfmarker} which could be the same , uh , class .
Professor F: I see .
PhD G: Well . So .
Professor F: Right . Although , you are not using this for the {disfmarker}
PhD G: So , I 'm
Professor F: You 're using this for the feature generation , though , not the {disfmarker}
PhD G: Yeah , but you will ask the net to put one for th th the phoneme class
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: and {disfmarker} So .
PhD A: So you 're saying that there may not be enough information coming out of the net to help you discriminate the words ?
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD G: Well . Yeah , yeah . Mmm .
PhD B: Fact , most confusions are within the phone {disfmarker} phone classes , right ? I think , uh , Larry was saying like obstruents are only confused with other obstruents , et cetera , et cetera .
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD A: Hmm .
Professor F: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD G: Yeah , this is another p yeah , another point .
Professor F: Yeah .
Grad C: So {disfmarker} so , maybe we could look at articulatory type stuff ,
Professor F: But that 's what I thought they were gonna {disfmarker}
Grad C: right ?
Professor F: Did they not do that , or {disfmarker} ?
PhD G: I don't think so . Well ,
Professor F: So {disfmarker}
PhD G: they were talking about , perhaps , but they d
Professor F: They 're talking about it ,
PhD G: I d
Professor F: but that 's sort of a question whether they did
PhD G: w Yeah .
Professor F: because that 's {disfmarker} that 's the other route to go .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: Instead of this , you know {disfmarker}
Grad C: Superclass .
Professor F: Instead of the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the superclass thing , which is to take {disfmarker} So suppose y you don't really mark arti To really mark articulatory features , you really wanna look at the acoustics and {disfmarker} and see where everything is , and we 're not gonna do that . So , uh , the second class way of doing it is {pause} to look at the , uh , phones that are labeled and translate them into acoustic {disfmarker} uh , uh {disfmarker} articulatory , uh , uh , features . So it won't really be right . You won't really have these overlapping {pause} things and so forth ,
PhD A: So the targets of the net {disfmarker} are these {disfmarker} ?
Professor F: but {disfmarker}
PhD A: Articulatory features .
Professor F: Articulatory feature .
PhD A: But that implies that you can have more than one on at a time ?
Professor F: Right . That 's right .
PhD A: Ah . OK .
Professor F: You either do that or you have multiple nets .
PhD A: I see .
Professor F: Um . And , um I don't know if our software {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} if the qu versions of the Quicknet that we 're using allows for that . Do you know ?
Grad C: Allows for {disfmarker} ?
Professor F: Multiple targets being one ?
Grad C: Oh , um , we have gotten soft targets to {disfmarker} to work .
Professor F: OK . So that {disfmarker} that 'll work , yeah .
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor F: OK . So , um , that 's another thing that could be done {disfmarker}
PhD B: Um .
Professor F: is that we could {disfmarker} we could , uh , just translate {disfmarker} instead of translating to a superset , {pause} just translate to articulatory features , some set of articulatory features and train with that . Now the fact {disfmarker} even though it 's a smaller number , {pause} it 's still fine because you have the {disfmarker} the , uh , combinations . So , in fact , it has every , you know {disfmarker} it had {disfmarker} has {disfmarker} has every distinction in it that you would have the other way .
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor F: But it should go across languages better .
PhD A: We could do an interesting cheating experiment with that too . We could {disfmarker} I don't know , if you had uh the phone labels , you could replace them by their articulatory features and then feed in a vector with those uh , things turned on based on what they 're supposed to be for each phone to see if it {disfmarker} if you get a big win . Do you know what I 'm saying ?
Professor F: No .
PhD A: So , um , I mean , if your net is gonna be outputting , uh , a vector of {disfmarker} basically of {disfmarker} well , it 's gonna have probabilities , but let 's say that they were ones and zeros , then y and you know for each , um , I don't know if you know this for your testing data , but if you know for your test data , you know , what the string of phones is and {disfmarker} and you have them aligned , then you can just {disfmarker} instead of going through the net , just create the vector for each phone and feed that in to see if that data helps . Eh , eh , what made me think about this is , I was talking with Hynek and he said that there was a guy at A T - andT who spent eighteen months working on a single feature . And because they had done some cheating experiments {disfmarker}
Professor F: This was the guy that we were just talking a that we saw on campus . So , this was Larry Saul who did this {disfmarker} did this .
PhD A: Oh , OK .
Professor F: He used sonorants .
PhD A: Right , OK ,
Professor F: Was what he was doing .
PhD A: right . And they {disfmarker} they had done a cheating experiment or something , right ?
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD A: and determined that {disfmarker}
Professor F: He {disfmarker} he di he didn't mention that part .
PhD A: Well , Hynek said that {disfmarker} that , I guess before they had him work on this , they had done some experiment where if they could get that one feature right , it dramatically improved the result .
Professor F: But . I see . OK .
PhD A: So I was thinking , you know {disfmarker} it made me think about this , that if {disfmarker} it 'd be an interesting experiment just to see , you know , if you did get all of those right .
Professor F: Should be . Because if you get all of them in there , that defines all of the phones . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's equivalent to saying that you 've got {disfmarker} {vocalsound} got all the phones right .
PhD A: Right .
Professor F: So , if that doesn't help , there 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor F: Although , yeah , it would be {disfmarker} make an interesting cheating experiment because we are using it in this funny way ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor F: where we 're converting it into features .
PhD A: And then you also don't know what error they 've got on the HTK side . You know ? It sort of gives you your {disfmarker} the best you could hope for , kind of .
Professor F: Yeah .
Grad C: Mmm . Mmm , I see .
PhD B: The soft training of the nets still requires the vector to sum to one , though , right ?
Grad C: To sum up to one .
PhD B: So you can't really feed it , like , two articulatory features that are on at the same time with ones cuz it 'll kind of normalize them down to one half or something like that , for instance .
PhD G: But perhaps you have the choice of the {pause} final nonl
Grad C: Right . Nonlinearity ?
PhD G: uh , nonlinearity ,
Grad C: Um ,
PhD G: yeah . Is it always softmax
Grad C: it 's sig No , it 's actually sigmoid - X
PhD G: or {disfmarker} ? Yeah .
Grad C: for the {disfmarker}
PhD G: So if you choose sigmoid it 's o it 's OK ?
Grad C: You , um {disfmarker}
Professor F: Did we just run out of disk ,
Grad C: I think {disfmarker} I think apparently , the , uh {disfmarker}
Professor F: or {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: Why don't you just choose linear ? Right ?
Grad C: What 's that ?
PhD B: Linear outputs ?
Grad C: Linear outputs ?
PhD B: Isn't that what you 'll want ?
Grad C: Um .
PhD B: If you 're gonna do a KL Transform on it .
Grad C: Right , right . Right , but during the training , we would train on sigmoid - X
PhD B: Oh , you {disfmarker} Yeah ?
Grad C: and then at the end just chop off the final nonlinearity .
PhD B: Hmm .
Professor F: So , we 're {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're off the air , or {disfmarker} ? About to be off the air . | |
doc_114 | Lynne Neagle AM: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the first virtual meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. In accordance with Standing Order 34.19, I determine that the public are excluded from the committee's meeting, in order to protect public health. In accordance with Standing Order 34.21, notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting, which was published last Friday. This meeting is, however, being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, with all participants joining via video conference. A record of the proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Can I remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally, so there's no need to turn them on and off individually? Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Can I just then, again, note for the record that, if, for any reason, I drop out of the meeting, the committee has agreed that Dawn Bowden AM will temporarily chair while I try to rejoin? Item 2, then, this afternoon is an evidence session with the Welsh Government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, Steve Davies, director of the education directorate, and Huw Morris, who is group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning. Can I welcome you all and thank you for attending? Minister, I understand you'd like to make a short opening statement.
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you very much, Lynne. And indeed, if I could just begin by, once again, putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic. There are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open, looking after vulnerable children, and the children of key workers. Because of them, and their efforts, those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to COVID-19. I am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community have gone above and beyond. They have kept their schools open out of hours, over the weekends, on bank holidays, and Easter. And it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis. And there are teachers, teaching assistants, and many others, who are helping our children and their parents to keep learning at home. I know that home schooling isn't easy, so I want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time. By keeping their children at home, they are helping us to keep people safe, and reducing pressure on our education system, and on our NHS. Be in no doubt, we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic. My primary concern is, and always will be, the health and well-being of our children, of our young people, and of all the staff in our education settings. And I am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours. Thank you very much—diolch yn fawr. And I'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much, Minister. I'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just given then. The first questions we've got this afternoon are from Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: Good afternoon, Minister. With regard to your five principles, which you've set out today, regarding when schools will reopen, they're very clear that they require a judgment from you. So could you outline when you think that schools might reopen?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Hefin. I am very clear that schools will move to a new phase—because, already, schools are open in many settings; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when I have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so. I have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent. I know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly. I'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent, and therefore I'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children.
Hefin David AM: Have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when, in the longer term, it might be?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, I have not been given a date. What I have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in, as you said, me making a decision. So, clearly, we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers, but the principles are very clear. Firstly, we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff. Obviously, I can't make a decision regarding education in isolation. It will have to be taken in the context of the wider Welsh Government response to dealing with this pandemic. Thirdly, it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff, on the information that we have used to reach any decisions, to build confidence for parents and professionals, but also to give them time to plan. It will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working. And we also have to look at—and it's been paraphrased quite a lot today—if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting, which groups they should be. And, finally, how do we operationalise that? How do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be, and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available, to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education, school transport issues, how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate, for instance? So, there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very, very carefully before we could return, before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education, and new approaches to what schooling may look like. But, again, I must be absolutely clear to you, members of the committee, and to people watching: it is not feasible, in this sense, that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic.
Hefin David AM: So, what is clear from what you've said is that it's going to be phased return. I would assume that would be the most vulnerable—perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first. Just reading some of the things that you've said today, can you answer that question? And can I also ask: you said that guiding principle No. 3 will be having the confidence of parents, staff and students, based on evidence and information, so they can plan ahead. What will that evidence and information be, and how will you know that you've got the confidence of parents to return?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, primarily, we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers. I want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. But we're also looking beyond the United Kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic. Members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory. So, recently I was able to talk to educationalists and Ministers in Iceland, other parts of Europe, North America, South America and Australia. So, we're also looking at best international evidence in this regard. And, clearly, we will need to be very clear, as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals, and the unions that represent them, about the basis of that evidence.
Hefin David AM: And could I just ask, with regard to the principles, do they then apply to further education and universities?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, of course, when we are discussing these challenges, we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the FE sector, and we're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to share thinking on these matters.
Hefin David AM: But these principles don't apply in those circumstances; these are principles for schools only.
Kirsty Williams AM: These principles are applying to both, and our work in this area is applying to both schools and FE colleges. Clearly, universities, as independent institutions, we wouldn't be able to dictate to. But I want to be absolutely clear: we are working with representatives of the HE sector to include them in this work. And I have received, not assurances, but from discussions that I've had with Universities Wales and vice-chancellors, they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches, because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a couple of supplementaries now; firstly, from Suzy Davies, and then I'm going to go to Siân Gwenllian. Suzy. No, we can't hear Suzy. Suzy? No. I'll go to Siân, then, and then I'll come back to Suzy. Siân.
Hefin David AM: Chair, I don't think my microphone is muted.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. I'll move on to my question to Kirsty Williams. Now, it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the Welsh Government has to take into account. And it is entirely clear that the approach of Government towards testing hasn't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions. So, wouldn't it be dangerous, if truth be told, to start to discuss reopening schools when we haven't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population? And doesn't it convey a mixed message that we're starting to relax some of these restrictions when, in reality, the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly?
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, thank you very much, Siân, for that important question. Can I be absolutely clear, and I thought I had been pretty clear in answering Hefin David, that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education? As I said to Hefin, it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in Wales. What I have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that I would use when coming to any discussion. It is the responsibility of me, as the Minister, and indeed of the wider Government, to begin to think about planning for the future. But I have been absolutely clear: we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment. And I'm also very, very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools, I will only do that when it is safe for me to do so, when I've been advised by the CMO that I am able to do that, and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond. It is not going to be easy, and we will need to give them, as a sector, time to be able to address. But if I have not been clear enough, let me say it again: we are not relaxing any issues around schools at present, nor is that imminent.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Suzy, I think we can try going to you again now.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. Minister, in your consideration of introducing a phased return to school, in due course, have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed? Because, regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging, there will still be some families that don't realise that going back to school is for their particular family. Will there be a relaxation of, effectively, what we would call truancy rules? Or is that something that schools will be getting guidance on much up-front?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Suzy. As I said in my statement earlier today, returning to school will not be a return to normal, and in recognition of this, I've already made it clear that I will seek, in all opportunities, to reduce the burdens on school. That includes various data collection, the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing, and, clearly, school attendance will want to be an important factor of that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. I'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from Siân Gwenllian. Siân.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Since yesterday, the Welsh Government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open, the number of children attending those schools, and the number of staff involved, and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population. On average, I think it's 1 per cent of the children of Wales that actually attend these locations, and some 5 per cent of the staff. So, can you analyse those figures a little further? Can you tell us how many children, according to this data, are children of key workers, and how many are vulnerable children?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you very much, Siân. As you quite rightly say, on average, we have 518 school hubs open each day, with up to 4,200 children attending. We have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term. We have approximately 5.6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs, and at present, 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers, the remainder being vulnerable children. So, we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day. These are small numbers, but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. I'm sure we'll return to that point a little later on. How much confidence do you therefore have that the arrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you once again for that. The smooth operation of the hubs, with regard to health and safety, is, of course, of paramount importance. What we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function—we have seen a change of pattern over time. So, following my announcement on, I believe, 18 March, the week after, we saw a large number of settings open and operating. As local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places—from critical workers and vulnerable children—we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model, and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed, and we've been able to give guidance in that regard. Local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground.
Sian Gwenllian AM: As I mentioned earlier, testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis. So, how many school staff have been tested for COVID because they may have experienced symptoms and so on? And how many of those have tested positive?
Kirsty Williams AM: My understanding from Public Health Wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for COVID-19, and I believe two of those results have come back as positive. Can I make it absolutely clear, the week before last, Welsh Government issued new guidance around who should be tested? I want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs, if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms, however mild, of COVID-19, they can and they should be tested.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. And the final question from me on this: how important is testing going to be in this next phase, as you start to think about relaxing restrictions?
Kirsty Williams AM: Obviously, the ability to be able to test, to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very, very important and significant building block in all aspects of the Government's work to respond to this pandemic.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Siân. We've got some questions now on the impact on particular groups of children, from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Just following on from your answer to Siân Gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school, what's being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment? I'm thinking about the 600 you've talked about, and I know, in one of my local authority areas of Merthyr, which is a very small authority, we're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands, not hundreds, and that's just in one authority. So, this is a particularly difficult issue to address, I appreciate, but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay, Dawn. The first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just Wales, but also to my colleagues in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. I'm pleased to say that we are working across Government departments—myself, obviously, and colleagues in education—with colleagues in social services to have a cross-Government approach to these issues. I think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages, because the overriding public health message from our Government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible, and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly, safely and effectively, we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs. So, firstly, the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages, because parents have been heeding those messages, but, of course, all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home. So, I'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children. So, although numbers are small, they have doubled over the course of the last week. We're working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways, and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs. They're also looking to support in other ways. Of course, some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable—and our definition of 'vulnerable' is one that is shared between the systems in England and Wales—could be children with a statement of special educational needs. For some of those children who, perhaps, have very intense health needs, actually, staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do, and we're looking to support families, and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families, in a number of ways. We also know that just because you don't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable, and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can—if the age of the child is appropriate—just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children. But we will continue to work across Government to encourage, where it is appropriate, children to attend settings, and, if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting, that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain, and their families remain, supported.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Minister. It's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and I assume, within that, appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child. Similarly, with special educational needs, whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a one-to-one provision in a school, and they may not respond as well to remote working, or remote contact, with an SEN advisor, are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, Dawn, you're absolutely right: my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children, and schools should continue to refer children to children's services if they have any concerns, and that would also, of course, be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children. So, there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that, despite the circumstances they find themselves in, they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a child's welfare and safety. With regard to children with additional learning needs, I am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children, and perhaps Steve Davies could give some further details. We have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision, where that is appropriate—so, if I could give you an example of my own local authority in Powys, they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs, and those centres are available—recognising, however, that, even with the provision of specialist hubs, it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine. Hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with. So, even when local authorities—and the vast, vast majority of them do—have specialist services in place, sometimes that might not be the best thing for a child's health and well-being. But perhaps Steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support. Steve.
Steve Davies: Yes, myself and colleague Albert Heaney—colleague-director—have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young people's needs are catered for. We are very aware of all of the special schools—profound and multiple learning difficulties, EBD schools and pupil referral units—that have been kept open in their own way, but also, in some cases, as hubs, to deliver those services for those children's needs, and we're pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively. So, we have the details of every school that's open, the pupils who are attending, and we are clear that the risk assessments that the Minister referred to for children with special needs, as well as wider vulnerable groups—they are having risk assessments to make sure that, where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub, then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Steve. Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you. Just two more questions. One is around emotional and mental health difficulties being experienced by children and young people at the moment. Now, there was a very welcome announcement of £1.25 million pounds for school counselling. How is that, in practical terms, being applied if those children are not actually in school?
Kirsty Williams AM: You're right, Dawn: we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time, but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and well-being—recognising, of course, it is absolutely natural for all of us, including children and young people, to have fears and anxieties at this time. That's a natural reaction to the situation that we find ourselves in. But, of course, there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling, and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support. So, the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families. In the immediacy, of course, that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we've traditionally delivered services in the past, because of social distancing and lockdown rules, but we want to get some of these systems in place now, rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal. We need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now, but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services. So, we've been in close touch with local authorities, asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources, and we've been very pleased to be able to secure that for them.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, that would include things like telephone and video support as well, I guess, then.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. So, that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we're doing now, but also, as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed, looking at an enhanced family therapy, or a therapy approach. So, when we talk about counselling, I think it's important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a one-to-one basis. That might not be appropriate for some children, especially our younger children and their families, and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy—in the widest possible terms—that is the best method to support individual children and their families. But, clearly, we're having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment. Some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors, because, of course, they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you. Thank you, Minister.
Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn, before you ask your final question, I've got a couple of supplementaries—firstly from Suzy, and then from Hefin.
Suzy Davies AM: Oh, thank you. My question goes back to the comment you made earlier, Minister, about the number of children doubling—sorry, vulnerable children doubling—after the Easter break, if we can call it that. So, what I'm after is a sense of churn in these establishments. So, was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the Easter break, and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown?
Kirsty Williams AM: Suzy, what I believe that we're seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school. So, there has been, I know, a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they're aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children, and to be able to give them the confidence that there are—that the hubs are available for them. So, we have seen an increase in children. Those numbers are still small and, I believe, potentially, there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children, whether that—. That vulnerability, of course, can cover a whole range of issues. As I said when we last met, this is a constantly evolving situation. The initial response—local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs. We've seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and I am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Hefin, you had a supplementary—briefly, please.
Hefin David AM: Yes, very quickly. I've been listening to the answers with regard to vulnerable children, following on from that answer. I'm at home with a vulnerable child—a child who has got additional learning needs. She's got autism; she's four. I imagine there are many, many parents in exactly the same position—I've heard from them. I haven't heard anything from the school or from the local authority. Should I have heard something or should I be proactive in pursuing it?
Kirsty Williams AM: I don't want to comment on personal cases—
Hefin David AM: But there are many others in this position.
Kirsty Williams AM: —but what I would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children, they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Dawn, final question, please.
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, my last question is really about the potential for the attainment gap between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers. Is that a concern for you? I'm thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on. What kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that doesn't actually play out?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Dawn. All of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the gap, potentially, will affect those more vulnerable children the most. Clearly, we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like, or as we develop into future phases. Depending on where that child is in their educational journey, of course, the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different. So, for instance, when we're thinking about very young children, we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills. Of course, that, potentially, then will have a knock-on to their ability to learn to read and then to write, for instance. For other children who are, perhaps, older and heading towards formal examinations, the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one. I'm not sure, Chair, whether you want me to give some further details about our continuity-of-learning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now, or whether there are questions later.
Lynne Neagle AM: Well, I've got a question on that coming up, so, if it's okay, Dawn, we'll go on to that now. Before we do that, I was just going to ask how the Welsh Government is paying due regard to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and, obviously, the right children and young people have to an education. I was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources, which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning.
Kirsty Williams AM: You're absolutely correct, Chair. Officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards children's rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time. We are fortunate in the regard that, because of previous decisions and investments, we have a strong base on which to build because we have our Hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of Microsoft Office and Google for Education tools, which are available to all families. We have become the first, I think—we're certainly the first in the UK, and I'm not sure whether we're the first across the world, but I think we probably are—to deploy, for instance, Adobe Spark nationally. But, obviously, access to hardware and connectivity is crucial at this time. Officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just a final question from me: how exactly are we communicating to parents what the expectations are of them in terms of delivering this education at home now? Are there, for example, guidelines on recommended hours of home learning per day of the week or volume of work to be completed? How are we ensuring that parents know how best to lead their children through this at the moment?
Kirsty Williams AM: Firstly, can I recognise what a challenge this is? We've just heard from Hefin who is carrying on his day job as the Assembly Member, but is obviously trying to do that as well as care for and provide learning for his children, and I know, Chair, that you're doing the same, and I'm certainly trying to do the same, and it's a real challenge, it's not easy. As part of our 'Stay Safe. Stay Learning' policy statement, advice is available to parents and carers on the Hwb platform as to what they best can do to support their children. I think the really important message that I've been trying to give to parents is not to be too hard on ourselves. I know that everybody is doing the best that they can in really challenging circumstances. And if they have concerns, they should be in contact with their child's school, but we do have specific advice and guidance to parents on the Hwb platform.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on now to some questions on examinations from Janet Finch-Saunders. Janet, we can't hear you. I tell you what, we'll—. Janet, do you want to try again? No. Okay, we'll go on then to questions on higher education and post 16, and we'll come back to examinations, if that's okay. Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, thank you, Chair. Before we leave continuity of learning, do you mind if I just ask this one question?
Lynne Neagle AM: No, that's fine. Yes, go on.
Suzy Davies AM: Your comment, Minister, on working with local authorities to make sure that individuals have hardware: can you just give us a bit of detail on what working with local authorities actually means? In the process of that, is there any data gathering going on for those pupils who are being educated at home and the levels at which they're engaging? You know, are they sticking with it, or how many are dropping out? Because I think the two of those perhaps go together.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. So, I'm hoping to make an announcement tomorrow, if not later on this week, about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity. We're working closely with local authorities to understand just that: to understand from the schools the number of schools that—and a number of them have already done this—have been lending Chromebooks, iPads and laptops to children, and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available. And we'll be doing two things to support local authorities. The first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students. So, we have purchased on a national basis software that, when applied to an old piece of kit, essentially turns it into an out-of-the-box Chromebook. Because, as you can imagine, just like other things during a pandemic, there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need. So, we're utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities, and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our EdTech investment programme. The other issue is, once a child has a Chromebook or a laptop or a device, issues around connectivity. So, we're also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute Mi-Fi connectivity, so students will be able to have access to Wi-Fi where they don't have that already. That's why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children. One of the ways in which we are able to do that is to look at engagement in education. So, if a child hasn't been engaging, is that because they just don't want to and they're voting with their feet—but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that—or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that, and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children? So, rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need, we're trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities. So, our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what's already happened, and there is very good practice out there—schools have been proactive—but where there are gaps, what can we do as a national Government to be able to assist them to do that? We are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our EdTech investment, using those resources to fill this particular gap.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. We're going to go back to Janet now. I believe we've got sound again, so Janet can ask her questions on examinations. Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. I thought it was something at this end; I'm glad to hear it wasn't. When will vocational learners know what is happening with their assessments, and how will those who have no choice but to wait for a vocational assessment be supported?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. That's a very good question, Janet, because I know that there has been some concern and anxiety around vocational qualification students and how quickly we've been able to provide certainty for them. You'll be aware that Qualifications Wales have been able, in the last week, to be able to give that greater clarity. So, they have announced that learners due to complete their Essential Skills Wales qualifications will receive results. They have also published their approach to how health and social care qualifications will be managed, because, of course, those are part of the first set of reformed quals that we have done on a Wales basis. You are right, there are a group of students who fall into the category where there are technical qualifications that require a certificate of competency to be industry ready—I hope I've explained that correctly—and, therefore, we are working to understand how we can accommodate those students in these particular circumstances. But, at this stage, there may be some delay for that element of their qualification being delayed to a further date.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes. What are your expectations for how A-level and GCSE qualifications will be awarded this summer, following the ministerial direction that you have issued to Qualifications Wales? For example, how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework, mock examinations, and other work to date, and also, the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, Janet, I understand—and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations—I understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision I had to take to cancel this summer's exam series. But I'm absolutely clear that was the only decision that could have been reached. Qualifications Wales has made it very clear—and for people who would like more information, I would urge them to look at Qualifications Wales's website—how they will go about giving, allocating, and awarding a grade to our A-level and GCSE students. Firstly, teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained, should they have taken an exam. And, of course, teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade. Teachers will also be asked to rank students in order. Once that information has been submitted to Qualifications Wales, there will be a process by which that data will be moderated; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation, thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being, and remaining, true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system, and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education, where they are looking to move on to the next stages—that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Janet. We're going to go on now, then, to the questions on higher and further education from Suzy Davies. Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I suppose my first question just goes back to the 16-year-olds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college, the older ones going to university, there'll be apprenticeships, all kinds of future pathways for post 16. What's happening at school level, or even at college level, to get those students ready for the next steps, because, obviously, they're not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, that's quite right, Suzy, and I should have said in answer to Janet's question, as well—I'm sure people already know, but just to get the point across—that A-level results day and GCSE day will run as normal across not just Wales, but England, Wales and Northern Ireland, which is really important. You're right, Suzy—for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time. You'll be aware that, last week, on Hwb, we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university. I'm very grateful to the HE sector in Wales, who've worked really hard with us on that. So, for instance, if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy, you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at Swansea University. If you go to the Hwb website, you will be able to see that there are subject listings, everything from animal science through to law, politics, history and science, with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of. There's also a section on preparation for essential study skills, whether that is report writing or academic writing. So, there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13, so that children—'children'; they're all children to me—young people can get themselves—. They don't have to stop learning, and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education. Again, for those children, perhaps, who are coming to the end of their GCSEs, there is a range of information, either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning. So, for instance, I'm aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of, for instance, what you could be reading over the summer if you're interested in doing this particular A-level in September. I know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children don't miss out on really important careers advice at this time, as well, and information, so they can make informed decisions. I know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they've got those options. So, there is material out there and it's growing all the time. This week, we were able to launch our virtual Seren network. You'll be aware that, for the last couple of years, we've been able to send Welsh children to the Yale global summer school. Clearly, that can't happen this year. That's devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme. They will now be able to attend the Yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely, because Yale have moved that programme online. So, we're developing materials and resources all of the time.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer. Before I move on to my next question, can you give me some sort of sense of how that Hwb domain is being populated? Where is all this information being sourced from? Presumably, they'll be working with partners, but what does that look like?
Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, my goodness. Yes, absolutely—
Suzy Davies AM: [Inaudible.]
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, we're working very hard. So, everything from our work with the BBC, for instance, and BBC Bitesize through to our FE colleges and our HE institutions, as well as other organisations in the third sector who are looking to provide those opportunities. Can I just say that, last week, we were looking at, every day, in the region of well over 150,000 logins a day into Hwb?
Suzy Davies AM: Well, that's great. So there's proactive populating of Hwb. That's what I was after. That's great. Just going back to some of Janet's questions and the assessed grades, I want to talk to you about the unconditional offers and where we are with that at the moment for entry to universities, because there's going to be a scramble now of the available students for further education, but primarily higher education institutions, across the UK. Is the moratorium on unconditional offers still standing? Are there conversations going on to extend that moratorium? Otherwise, this scramble is going to potentially negatively affect our universities quite considerably.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, you'll be aware that a moratorium does exist. It exists in this current context to 1 May. We continue to keep in close touch with colleagues in Northern Ireland, Scotland and in the Westminster Government around these issues. Officials are also in touch with UCAS, and in the last couple of days I've had at least three meetings with representatives of the Welsh higher education sector to discuss these matters.
Suzy Davies AM: I just want to ask you now about students and their maintenance loan grants. I think they're getting, around now, the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year. That's right, yes?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's correct, yes.
Suzy Davies AM: What's happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home? Are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost, because obviously it's not as expensive to live at home as away, and what's likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period, potentially? Because we've had a period now where students can't top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings, or whatever, so their income has been impacted. Just in the round, what kind of conversations are happening around that? Again, it's probably a four-nation approach, I would imagine.
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Suzy. You are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies, but I want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home. There should be no change. Also, we are continuing, it should be important to say, to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our FE students that are eligible for that, even though, obviously, for EMA there is an attendance requirement, but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment. You are correct—this is a worrying time for many students in higher education, especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic. At this time, we continue to have conversations with NUS Wales about what can be done within a Welsh context, but, as you quite rightly say, also within a UK context, to support students who may have been affected. We are continuing—on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance, especially when it comes, for instance, to the cost of accommodation—to have those discussions, and I'm very grateful that, in some cases, some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address. But we will continue to have dialogue with NUS Wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer, and, yes, I was pleased to see that announcement through the NUS as well, so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart. I think we'll all have seen the Universities UK document that explains some of the difficulties that they're going to be running into if this proceeds much further. My understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the UK through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible. I can see that your figure to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales was a little bit down on last year's letter—not that there's been a remit letter yet, but an indication. Are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly, or does that not matter?
Lynne Neagle AM: Before you come in, Minister, that is going to have to be the last question, just to make you aware of that, because we are coming up to the end of our time.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. That's fine.
Kirsty Williams AM: Of course, Suzy, we are working closely with Universities Wales and have a lot of sympathy for the proposals that have come forward from Universities UK, which Wales's universities have been a part of forming. Stability in the first instance is really important to us, which is why we've been able to give an indication to HEFCW about resources that are available, and we've been very clear to HEFCW that we want to be as flexible as possible in how they use those resources to support institutions. That potentially would mean reprofiling the way in which money gets out to institutions, but clearly we will need to have an ongoing discussion about how we respond to the immediacy of the issues facing HE, how we can get stability for the next academic year, and how we then can support the sector through what is a really challenging time for them. We will do that in a Welsh context and we will continue to do that also in a UK context, because you will have seen the scale of some of the figures that have been talked about in terms of the impact on the HE sector at this time. Clearly, a four-nation approach to that will be crucial.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. Well, we have come to the end of our time, and, as to anything that we didn't ask, we will have to write to the Minister. Can I just thank the Minister and her officials for your attendance today? We know how busy you are dealing with the pandemic and we very much welcome this opportunity to have this discussion with you. So, thank you, Minister and officials for your time. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Diolch yn fawr.
Kirsty Williams AM: Diolch yn fawr, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay. I see that Members are content, so we will now proceed to meet in private. | |
doc_115 | Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to this morning's Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members who are present if they wish to declare any interests? Okay, thank you. Item 2 this morning is our final evidence session for our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Ruth Conway, deputy director, support for learners division. Welcome to all of you, and thank you for your attendance and also for the paper that you've provided in advance. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions, and the first questions are from Llyr Gruffydd.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Bore da. I just want to start by asking some questions around the targeting of the pupil development grant because, clearly, we've had a lot of evidence around this apparent blurring of eligibility to an extent. I'm just wondering how comfortable you are that the money is being targeted appropriately because, clearly, it's being targeted more widely than just those eligible for free school meals, from some of the evidence we've had, but also that it seems to be predominantly focused on low-attaining frees—pupils who are eligible for free school meals.
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Llyr. I think it's important to be absolutely clear that when it comes to individual interventions, those individual interventions should only be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals. But in some cases, schools may use their PDG funding to provide a universal intervention, but we would want to—in challenge advisers' discussions in schools—we'd want to have evidence that that universal intervention would have a disproportionate effect on the outcomes for children on free school meals. So, for instance, if I give you an example in your own region, Llyr: at Brynteg County Primary School in Wrexham, if you look at that primary school in Wrexham, their results for free-school-meal children at the end of their primary school period in school are equivalent to their non-free-school-meal counterparts. So, there is no differentiation in those results. One of the things that they've used their PDG for is to really focus on the concept of growth mindset in school. So, that's a universal thing that they've trained all the teachers in, but what we know is that that has a disproportionate effect on those children who are on free school meals. So, if you're familiar with the concept of a growth mindset, it's about really challenging learners to think that, 'I can do things. If sometimes I fail, I pick myself up, I'm more resilient.' Now, that has been, as I said, trained to all the teachers in the school—it's an ethos for the whole school—but we have seen that the impact on the free-school-meal children has been even greater, and now they're at the same level. So, that's the important distinction. Individual intervention per child has to be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals, but sometimes a school will employ a whole-school approach to train their staff, for instance, and that, then, has to demonstrate it has a disproportionate effect on free school meals. So, growth mindset; it may be attachment disorder training for staff, for instance, where we know it's of benefit to everybody, but will have particular benefits for that cohort of students. With regard to more able and talented, you know, Llyr, that this is an area of concern for me, generally, within the Welsh education system; that we've not been particularly good at identifying, supporting and driving attainment for those children. I'm absolutely clear that PDG needs to be used for those children who are eligible to drive potential, whatever the potential of that child is, including more able and talented. And again, I'll give you an example that has been seen as good practice in Pembrokeshire: a window on the world bus, again paid for by schools. I don't know if you're aware of it.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: We've heard about that.
Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, you've heard about it; well, it's a really good example the window on the world. And, again, that's very much targeted at raising aspirations and giving children who are more able and talented, who are eligible for PDG, those experiences, and to really push them. So, yes, I'm absolutely clear that PDG shouldn't just be seen to be getting individuals to the average. For those children who are more able and talented, it should be used to support them—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: And we all share those aspirations, I'm sure, and you pointed to examples of good practice, but of course, it's not universal, is it, so what I'm asking is: do you think that the guidance is sufficient as it is? Do you think that there's a great enough awareness of how the PDG should be used at the coalface? And also, are you confident that consortia and others have the measures in place to be able to demonstrate that it is being used properly?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think, if we look at what Estyn has said about PDG, it does actually recognise that the PDG is being used to push more able and talented children, but as always with the system, Llyr, it's whether we can be sure that that is strategic and that it's happening across all of our schools. So, you're—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: But not just in relation to more able and talented, I'm referring to the eligibility and the targeting.
Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, the eligibility. You'll be aware that, on the advice of Sir Alasdair, we have employed and appointed new PDG regional advisers, and I think their role is going to be absolutely crucial in spreading that good practice across the region, whether that's use of PDG for more able and talented, or ensuring that PDG is used in the appropriate way. So, that's there to provide strategic overall advice. And obviously, we have been very clear with regional challenge advisers, in the relationship and the conversations they're having with individual schools, that they're really challenging their schools about the use of PDG, not just in terms of targeting, but the programmes, what the money is being spent on, whether there is an evidence base for that and whether we are clear on impact. So, I think the new regional advisers are going to be crucial in enabling us to ensure more consistent practice across the regions.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, are you content that eligibility for free school meals is the best measure, really, of identifying which pupils to target?
Kirsty Williams AM: Llyr, in the absence of anything better. I'll be the first person to say that maybe it's not as absolutely focused, but in the absence of anything different to identify a proxy for need, I think it's probably the best that we've got at present. And we will continue to have discussions with local government about whether there are different ways. We have to be mindful. Some of the policy levers in this area are out of my hands, so if we look at the roll-out of universal credit, for instance, we've got officials working very hard at the moment to try and understand what universal credit is going to mean and where we are going to be able to identify relative need, going forward. We haven't had any additional resource as a result of this, but we're very mindful that, potentially, this has an impact, going forward. And, officials are working all of the time, I must say, in conjunction with the department in England, to understand their thinking in this area so that we are in a position to make some decisions about what a notional eligibility for free school meals will look like going forward, but before I make any decisions, I want to assure everybody that there will be a full public consultation on that.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. Finally for now, on this issue of once a year, in January, if you're eligible for free school meals, then you're in that group for that year. We've had some quite strong evidence about how difficult that makes longer term planning for a number of schools and we've also been pointed in the direction of what's happened in England with the Ever 6, and I'm just wondering whether you're giving any thought to maybe changing that a little bit.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, we're certainly giving thought to flexibility. In conversations with Alasdair, who is our independent adviser on this agenda, and individual schools, we're actively giving thought to greater flexibility and maybe longer term projections, so that schools know, for a number of years ahead, what their allocation will be. There are advantages to that system, because you could give that flexibility, you could give that long-term approach, but then, how do you make that responsive if a school suddenly has more children? We do know that, actually, the number of free-school-meal pupils is dropping. But there can be changes, you know, regional working in areas of north Wales in tourism, or maybe in other areas at Christmas time, parents are able to get a period of work. So, how can we create a more flexible system? We're actively looking at that at the moment. I wouldn't use it as an Ever 6 concept, but as an 'Ever 2' concept. We have looked at Ever 6, and I'm going to be absolutely blunt with you: to introduce an Ever 6 concept for Wales would mean in the region of identifying an additional £40 million. I'm going to be absolutely straight and blunt with you: we're not in a position at the moment to be able to identify an additional £40 million to introduce an Ever 6. But issues around flexibility, certainly, are actively under consideration. In fact, we'll be having a discussion later on today about decisions, going forward, for the next two years.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Darren on this.
Darren Millar AM: It's just a very brief point in response to the £40 million price ticket that you just put on that. That's, of course, assuming that you maintain the current level of PDG, yes? So, if you reduced the level of PDG slightly, but made it available to more individuals, if you like, via allocating it in a different way, then that £40 million price ticket wouldn't be there, would it?
Kirsty Williams AM: I was asked a question about had I ever considered an Ever 6. We have looked at that, we've priced that up. I have to make decisions in the envelope of resources that are available to me. We could, indeed, change the way in which we allocate PDG money, but we have to do it within the envelope that is available to me, over £90 million. That's a significant level of investment, but, of course, as always, Darren, we could cut the amount per pupil, but that might have quite challenging swings in allocations. What we have done—because what I am clear on is that there was evidence to suggest that in the secondary sector, a great deal of PDG was being focused on years 10 and 11, especially year 11, in catch-up provision, and you'll be aware, because we've said this in evidence to the committee in the papers, we've set a challenge to secondary schools to say, 'Actually, the majority of your PDG allocation has to be used in key stage 3.' Now, we have to balance the needs, the moral hazard of turning round to children in years 10 and 11 and saying, 'We're not going to provide catch-up opportunities for you,' because, clearly, those children need that support. But the evidence and the advice that we're receiving is: actually, strong focus on early years, primary and key stage 3, if we get that right, should negate the need for spending money on catch-up at years 10 and 11. That's why we, in our advice to local authorities and schools, say that we want to see evidence that they're spending this money earlier on in a child's career, rather than just a scramble at year 11 to say, 'Right, we've got to get you through your exams.'
Darren Millar AM: Okay, but have you actively considered, then, reducing the level you have?
Kirsty Williams AM: We've—
Ruth Conway: Sorry—I was just going to say that one of the things is looking at the scope of the definition, and I think it's about being more flexible with the definition, rather than reducing the amount per head.
Darren Millar AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. If we can go on, then, to talk about some of the practical uses of the PDG, you write in your written paper that 'the majority of schools are making well thought out and appropriate decisions' on how to use it. But Estyn reported that only two thirds of primary and secondary schools make effective use of the PDG. Given that we've had it now for six years, would you not have expected there to be a higher level of schools actually making good use of that funding?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, to flip it on its head, the vast majority of schools, as identified by Estyn, are using this money to good effect. So, that's the way I like to see it—that the vast majority of schools are doing well. What Estyn has also indicated is the intrinsic link here to leadership within individual schools, and as you'll be aware, leadership, improving capacity in leadership and developing leadership talent in the Welsh education system is a key priority for me in our national mission. Of course, that's being developed in a different work stream. I think what's fair to say is that the use of PDG is evolving over time. I think we are seeing, increasingly, more and more schools understanding how best to deploy that money for best effect for students. So, if we're honest, when PDG first started, I think, in some schools it was spent on investing in tracking of children, because they'd never thought about tracking these children, they didn't have systems in place to look at the performance of these children, and to have a system in place. So we've moved now from spending money on the infrastructure around support for FSM children into actual inputs in terms of teaching and learning. We're also seeing from Estyn that, actually, in terms of money following the evidence of what we know works, Estyn says that PDG is probably the best example of schools following tried and tested and evidence-based interventions to deploy the money. But clearly we want all of this money to be deployed as well as it can be, and again we come back to the decision I've made to appoint regional PDG advisers so that we can get that better consistency of approach. We are, in the discussions that I have with the regional consortia about how they challenge individual schools on usage, looking for very clear evidence of schools using the Sutton Trust toolkit, and we could have a discussion about whether that's the right thing, because that's on my mind too. But we want to see schools demonstrating their evidence base, and if they're not, if a school isn't doing that, okay, so demonstrate to us why you've made those decisions and, crucially, what are you doing as the school to judge whether that decision is actually making a difference for your individual pupils. So, if you're moving away from tried and tested interventions, what we know works, if you're doing something different with your money, okay, you need to justify that and you need to explain how you're going to demonstrate impact. But I think what we're seeing is increasing good practice in this area as the PDG develops and as our understanding of our school-to-school working in our self-improving school system also develops. I think we're seeing better usage of the money year on year.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Llyr on this.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: You mentioned some schools will be moving from the tried-and-tested interventions, really, and I'm just wondering to what extent that evolution of use of PDG is being driven by cuts to core funding.
Kirsty Williams AM: No, I don't think it's being driven by cuts to core funding. I think there has been—. One of the biggest impacts of PDG has not been—well, I suppose it is the money in itself, because the money has concentrated the minds, hasn't it? So, one of the most important things that PDG has done is highlight the importance of this agenda within schools, and really raise this up in the thinking of leadership and senior management teams in our schools, and has driven a focus on scrutiny and accountability in the systems that are working with our schools. I think the changing use of PDG reflects the journeys that schools have been on, some of them from a very low base where this was not a priority for them, to better understanding, and as research and as intelligence grows over time in this area, both in Wales and outside of Wales, schools are increasingly learning to use that evidence to tailor approaches in their schools.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So you wouldn't accept at all that some of this money's being used to paper over some funding cracks from elsewhere. Because the unions and some others have told us that, whether we like it or not, there is some of that going on.
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, Llyr, we're very clear about the usage that this money can be spent on in terms of individuals or universal application within schools, and that forms an important part of the checks and balances that we have in our system. Can we continue to improve, and ensure that more and more of our schools are employing best practice? Yes, we can, and as I've said, we've taken steps to put in place the infrastructure to support that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Mark's questions are next.
Mark Reckless AM: Cabinet Secretary, how would you assess the impact of PDG on attendance and hopefully subsequent engagement with education from children who have free school meals?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think what's important to note is that, as Estyn have themselves said, over the period of the last inspection report, we have seen improvements in attendance, but I do think we need to, again, look at how PDG can support this particular agenda. And as always in the Welsh education system, there are some excellent examples of how schools use the money to address this. Ysgol y Preseli in Pembrokeshire is a very good example of how they've deployed their money. Forgive me; I can't off the top of my head remember the name of the primary school I visited, again in north Wales, where the school has proactively used this money, and they actually send teaching assistants out of school in the morning before the start of the school day, and they actually have a walking bus. They call at homes for children, and they walk the children to the breakfast club. So, they're proactively going out into the community and making sure that those children are in the classrooms, because the teacher said, 'We recognised we had a problem with attendance. We tried a variety of means of improving that, but in the end we have taken this quite bold step—we actually send the staff out and they create that walking bus, and they walk the children into school'. They say that they know that, for some of those children, because of the difficult circumstances they and their families are living in, they probably wouldn't be in school if it wasn't for that proactive approach. So, we're looking again at what more we can do to support this particular agenda in terms of improving attendance, because although, again, there are examples of good practice, there is still a gap between the attendance of free-school-meal pupils and non-free-school-meal pupils. And, of course, we can have the best curriculum in the world with really high-quality teaching, but unless the children are in the classes then we're not going to make the difference for them. Whilst that differential exists, then it's going to be hard to close the attainment gap for those children.
Mark Reckless AM: I was actually quite shocked just reading in advance of this meeting that the proportion attending 95 per cent or more, who have pretty full attendance, was only 35 per cent for free-school-meal children at level 4, compared to 60 per cent for non-free-school-meal pupils. It still is an extraordinary difference. My colleague here showed me, I think, last week, a graph showing the link between attendance and attainment, in particular. When people were absent, a lot of the—. As I'm sure you're aware, there's a huge connection. What more can PDG do to deal with it? In the example you give I can see how a school with an awful lot of free-school-meal children could do that, but a lot of the free-school-meal children are actually in schools that don't have that high a proportion of free school meals, where it would be much more challenging to bring in that type of initiative.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, indeed, and I think it gets more challenging the older the children get. I think it's more difficult to find interventions that are successful higher up, so key stage 4. So, you can do a walking bus with little ones, can't you, but I don't suppose your average 15 or 16-year-old is going to take very kindly to that. So, you do need a different approach to that. But again, we see in Ysgol y Preseli the employment of staff to directly work with families of older children to reinforce the messages around, as you quite rightly say, the linkage between attendance and attainment, and really work with individual families to understand the barriers to attendance: what's going on in the family that is preventing that child from going to school, and what more can the school do to address those situations. But you're absolutely right; there is more that we need to do to address this particular agenda of attainment. I don't know if there's anything extra you wanted to add, Steve.
Steve Davies: There is also another very good example—and I take what you say about where there are small numbers—but in our secondary schools where there are significant numbers, they're investing PDG in resources like a school nurse and a school counsellor, not just to work with the children but link to other agencies on whom the children and the families are dependent to support them in terms of working with schools. So, it's something, particularly in our most challenging areas, where it cannot just be delivered within the school. So, good use of that resource is being made to employ people to support them in those wider areas.
Mark Reckless AM: Thank you. To what extent is PDG also used to seek to reduce the higher rates of exclusion for children entitled to free school meals?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, if we looked at permanent exclusions, there isn't a differential, but if we look at temporary exclusions, there we see there is a disproportionate number of children on free school meals that are subject to those exclusions. Again, I think what schools employing best practice understand is that you need a multi-agency approach to supporting that particular child. Some of those exclusions can be as a result of the need to address other issues going on in a child's life. So, this is where we come back to the committee's work, for instance, on mental health and support for children, support for behaviour in school. So, again, it's a multi-agency approach that I think we need, and, in our good schools, our really, really good schools, there's a recognition of that need to have a whole team around a child to support that child in education. With EOTAS, we made some changes last year regarding PDG for EOTAS. So, for those children who do find themselves in education other than at school, we are providing additional support that previously was not available.
Mark Reckless AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We're going to move on now to talk about the impact of PDG on attainment. Hefin David has got some questions.
Hefin David AM: It appears that the attainment gap at 2017 has actually widened, in spite of PDG levels. Is that correct?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. So, if you look at it—with the usual caveats about whether you can make direct comparisons on level 2 plus between the exams the year before and the exams that we had last summer—on the face of it, the gap has increased. I think what's important to recognise, Hefin, is a direction of travel. I'm sure we all want to, because I want to, have a discussion about why children on free school meals were less resilient in the exam system last year. But, if we look at the period that we have been employing PDG, over that period, we have seen a narrowing of the gap. I think what's quite stark, if we think about it—. So, if we look at where we started from: in 2009, one in five children on free school meals got level 2 plus—one in five—by 2016, we had got that down to one in three. Obviously, there's still a way to go, but, Sir Alasdair, who knows about these things, says that that is a significant improvement. Last year, we got some challenges. We need to understand why that happened, but I do think it's—
Hefin David AM: Why, do you think?
Kirsty Williams AM: Why, do I think? What I do think is there is no one answer. There is no one answer to this. I think we could look at and we can have discussions around the move from BTEC to science GCSEs. I think we have supplied figures to the committee about the significant change in the number of children on free school meals who weren't doing a single science GCSE and are now doing science GCSEs. We can look at the unintended consequences of literature. Again, we've supplied figures. Where children have done language and literature, whether that be through the medium of English or through the medium of Welsh, there is more resilience. So, it's that exposure to literacy in all its forms that I think could potentially make a difference. So, I think there's no one answer to why free-school-meal children were not so resilient last year. We continue to have discussions with Qualifications Wales to get a better understanding of this. At my next ministerial policy board, in May, we'll be doing a deep dive into this particular subject.
Hefin David AM: So, to what extent would exam boards be responsible for lack of grade stability?
Kirsty Williams AM: It could be one of the contributory factors. What I think is important is that there is no one, single reason why there seems to be less resilience in this cohort of children.
Hefin David AM: Will you be speaking to the exam boards about this and raising concerns?
Kirsty Williams AM: I have written to Qualifications Wales, we've had discussions about it, but I've asked them to formally submit evidence ahead of my policy board for May, where, as I said, we will be doing a formal, deep-dive discussion across the department about these issues. But, again, Hefin, what we've got to be clear on is—while we look at overall factors, you know, our overall national statistic—we did see some schools last year whose FSM performance was better than it had been the year before. So, what was it in those schools that enabled those children to do really well, whereas, in other schools, the performance was different? Even in individual cities, you can see a huge variety of performance. So, take Cardiff and Swansea, our two biggest cities. You've got schools in those cities with comparative levels of free school meals. So, you could have really high-performing schools with a very small number of the cohort on free school meals. The difference between those performances in a single city—so, that's the same local education authority and the same regional consortium—you can see a massive change. There's one school I can talk to: their free-school-meal performance is 88 per cent. A similar school in the same city with the same proportion of children on free school meals, their performance is down in the 20 per cents. So, I think what's important is that we can't draw broad-brush conclusions. For me, the challenge is to go into individual schools and understand what was happening in that particular school that ensured that their children did really well. We've got one school in Swansea, their FSM performance at GCSE level 2 outperforms non-FSM pupils.
Hefin David AM: But we still need to rely on the trends from a distance. If we take your argument that 2017 was an unusual year and the trends up to 2016 were positive, in a few years' time, when we will be looking back in two years' time, how are we going to measure this progress, say, in 2019? What are we likely to see and what methods are you going to use to measure progress that way?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, you'll be aware that we are moving away from level 2 plus as a performance measure anyway because of the—
Hefin David AM: So, what performance measures will you use?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, for the lack of sophistication around the level 2 plus, and for the unintended behaviours that that particular performance measure has driven within our schools. I'll be making a statement shortly to the Assembly around a new performance measure for schools. We were, at our most recent secondary heads conference, working with schools to develop that. What's important to me is that we have a more sophisticated model that looks at school performance for all children. What level 2 plus does is narrow, very much, the focus of schools on an individual part of the cohort, usually the C/D borderline, which is why then we have problems with the number of students getting a B grade or above. We have marked success in our schools by saying to schools that a C is good enough. Well, if a child gets a C but came to you in year 7 and they were destined to get an E, yes, indeed, a C is a success, because you've moved that child on; but, if that child came to you destined to get an A* and gets a C, then we haven't done a good job by that particular child. So, we need a performance measure that is much more sophisticated, looks at each individual child, tracks that progress, and measures the value added by that school in performance.
Hefin David AM: Last question: therefore, should we have confidence in the data up to 2016? Is there a lack of confidence in that data?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, it's not a lack of confidence in the data. The data is the data. What I'm saying is, using that as a performance measure and an accountability measure within our school system may have been right for the time. I think it is now right to have a different way of measuring success in schools. I think that particular set of performance measures has driven certain behaviours—not because Ministers wanted that to happen, but as an unintended consequence. I think we can work together with our school system, learning the lessons of international best practice, to develop much more sophisticated accountability and performance measures for individual schools, and, I should say, for the Government. So, you will be aware of my intention to issue the first national report card on Government performance later on this year. So, this is not about trying to avoid scrutiny. It's about trying to develop a more sophisticated way, which is in line with our national mission, where every child's education is valued, and where the impact of the school can be tracked more effectively.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Can I just ask, Cabinet Secretary, are you still holding on to your target of 37 per cent of free-school-meal pupils achieving the level 2 threshold?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, we're moving away from the level 2 threshold. So, that's the first thing to say. So, we will want to develop a new suite, in line with our new accountability measures, as we go forward. So, we will be absolutely continuing to track and evaluate the performance of free-school-meal pupils. When we announce our new accountability measures, I will be in a position to address how we'll measure the Government's performance, and national performance, going forward. But, given the fact that we're moving away from level 2 plus, then we will need a different set of performance indicators.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions are on looked-after children and adopted children, and I've got questions from Michelle then Mark.
Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. Good morning—
Mark Reckless AM: I was to come in first, I think. I was about to ask about ICF consulting.
Lynne Neagle AM: Go on then.
Mark Reckless AM: I think my questions are first, but, Michelle, please do correct me if you were planning to come in before. The PDG for looked-after children doesn't quite seem to have the degree of visibility as the PDG for the free-school-meals. I think we had the MORI/WISERD survey—only 15 per cent of primary schools and 23 per cent of secondary schools were aware that PDG was targeted at looked-after children. I just wonder—can you clarify on the record here what is the role of schools with PDG for looked-after children as compared to the regional consortia in this field?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. I think it is absolutely fair to say that most awareness around PDG is around free school meals. There is less awareness around the availability of PDG to support looked-after children. I think that's probably in the nature of the cohort, so, there are more children subject to free school meals than are subject to being looked after. So, I think that's part of the explanation. A decision was taken in 2015 to regionalise PDG for looked-after children. My understanding was that the thinking behind that at the time was around a greater strategic deployment of that resource and to try and drive a greater impact than how it was being used previously. So, looked-after PDG is held at a regional level. We have looked-after children PDG co-ordinators—they're in their second year this year—to look at a regional deployment of that resource. And that resource can be done in a variety of ways, through individual allocation to a school to support an individual child, through to capacity building for the whole system. So, for instance, if I give you an example, in Carmarthenshire, there's been a big emphasis on attachment disorder and training teachers with regard to the impact of attachment disorder. Carmarthenshire happens to be one of those local authorities that does quite well in terms of attainment for looked-after children. But, clearly, I have—not concerns. 'Concerns' isn't the right word. But I have asked officials to give greater scrutiny to how that resource has been used in the last year. Steve, on my behalf, wrote out to the system, setting out our expectations, but also advising them of the fact we will be asking very detailed questions of accountability for that money. So, what has that money been used on and how can you account for the effect? But, Steve, maybe you can give some greater detail.
Steve Davies: I think the challenge that—. One of the rationales for shifting—not that all the money stays in the region, but having a regional strategic support—was that, historically, the money was going directly with that child to the school. Given the quite often rapid turnover of children in schools—the very nature of looked-after children is they do sometimes move through foster parents—historically, what happened, the money lands in the school, because, at that time in the year, when it's measured, the school gets the money and can spend it on some additional support for staff, but quite often that child moves on to another school and the money doesn't transfer. Some schools will go through quite a number of years without having a looked-after child and will not think strategically, 'How do I need to support them?' So, that was the rationale of the shift. In terms of the implementation of the regional allocation, as of this financial year finishing, we are going into local authorities and regions to evaluate where they've located the resource, what the impact of that resource has been, so that is reinforced and shared more widely.
Kirsty Williams AM: And then, to reassure, it's not just internally that we're looking at this. We have a contract with an external agency to do an evaluation—
Mark Reckless AM: That's ICF consulting.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Yes, so that was done in the autumn of last year, because, as I said, we had concerns about whether this was really having the effect that was intended. So, my expectation is that we will be in a position to receive that report later on this spring, and of course it would be my intention that that report would be made public for people to have a look at what—
Mark Reckless AM: That was commissioned last autumn—
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, in November 2017.
Mark Reckless AM: November 2017.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, I'm hoping to have that published before the summer recess. I'm very reluctant to say months; I've learnt not to say months, because they move.
Lynne Neagle AM: I'm going to go to Michelle now, Mark, because—
Mark Reckless AM: Sure. I will come back in if I have anything further to ask here after Michelle.
Lynne Neagle AM: —both of you asked for these questions, and that's what the pre-meeting is for.
Mark Reckless AM: Michelle, I defer to you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Michelle.
Michelle Brown AM: Okay, thank you. Would you be open, Cabinet Secretary, to the idea of adjusting the eligibility of the PDG so that pupils who have been looked after or adopted at any point within a previous given period of time would attract the PDG, rather than only if they're looked-after on a one-off date?
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said earlier, in questions from, I think it was, Llyr, who was talking about concepts of concepts of Ever 6, we are constantly looking at how we can get that balance between focus and flexibility for this resource. Llyr opened with the question of, 'How can you absolutely ensure that these children are getting the money?', but then there's also a tension about how can you create some flexibility around the school's usage of the grant. So, we will look at that. I think there is the issue of where a school would know of a child that was looked after. Issues around adoption are slightly more sensitive, because we couldn't force a family to tell a school that their child was an adopted child. So, a family may be very open and very keen to explain that to a school, but we can't necessarily track as closely children who have been adopted, especially if that adoption happens before the child goes to school. We can't be in a position of forcing families to disclose this information if they don't want to, but we certainly can, as I say, look to strengthen our monitoring arrangements around PDG support for looked-after children and the impact that that's having. I just think we need to be a bit mindful of people's privacy in some instances. If they don't want to divulge that, it wouldn't be my job to tell a family, 'You have to let us know if your child is adopted.'
Lynne Neagle AM: Michelle.
Michelle Brown AM: Fair enough; thank you for that answer. The EAS consortium's approach to using the looked-after and adopted PDG is to use it as part of a broader approach targeted at vulnerable learners in general. What are your views on that approach?
Kirsty Williams AM: I'm a great believer in if we can get it right for our most vulnerable learners, we'll be getting it right for all of our learners. I gave the example earlier, for instance, of attachment disorder, and, Chair, you will know that I have had conversations. One of the emerging themes for me, as I go around visiting schools, is the impact and the growing awareness and the growing numbers of children who have attachment disorder, and how schools are best able to respond to that in their children. So, for instance, as I said about Carmarthenshire, there's been a huge effort to address that in the school sector in Carmarthenshire. Now, that has a disproportionate benefit for those children, because you're more likely to see attachment disorder in children who are care experienced, because of the nature of the lives that those children have lived, but that doesn't necessarily mean that attachment disorder is exclusively found in those children that are looked after. It can be found in other families as well. So, that vulnerable learner, regardless of their background, will benefit from having teachers who are better trained, understanding and have intervention strategies in place to be able to address that need.
Steve Davies: I think it's also important to add that this is not one region's approach; this is across four regions, so the others—. For example, ERW have run a significant programme looking at the impact of adverse childhood experiences on pupils, which has enabled teachers to detect some of the impact of some of those and then considers some of the work they need to do within the school but also with other agencies. So, it is something that's applied consistently across the four regions.
Kirsty Williams AM: I was in Pil Primary School recently where they use their PDG, both FSM PDG, and no doubt an element of PDG for looked-after, for nurture groups. So, for those children who really, really find it very difficult to be in the main classroom, they can have that nurture group experience to address issues around emotional behaviour, feelings, and it gets them in a position where they are able then to join the main classroom because issues around behaviour have been addressed and they're in a better position to learn. So, again, this is an example of how vulnerable learners in the wider sense can benefit.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Mark, did you have anything you wanted to ask?
Mark Reckless AM: Yes. Can I follow up on tracking adopted children? I entirely understand that you can't force parents to disclose that their child is adopted. However, my understanding was that, in England, there was a dataset with social services that was shared with schools in a way that I'm not clear is happening in Wales and how, if at all, that links to the pupil level annual school census data. Perhaps sort of linked to that, isn't there an argument for making the parents of adopted children in the schools, potentially, with adopted children more aware that adopted children who were previously looked after have this potential grant, and would they not be more willing to disclose this, at least confidentially to the school and Government, if they knew there was this upside of doing so?
Kirsty Williams AM: We're actively looking at whether we should try and find a way of collecting this data, with the caveats that I just gave earlier. We can't force parents to divulge information that is a matter for them, nor would I want to. But there is an active discussion going on at the moment about whether we could create a dataset where people divulge this information and we can then track the children through. You're absolutely right. One of the ways in which we can often encourage take-up, for instance, of free school meals, especially in those communities where there is a sense of reluctance to apply for support—even though people are entitled to it, there's a reluctance to do it; sometimes we see this in rural areas—. Actually, appealing to the parents by saying, 'Actually, this will mean more money for your child's school budget' is a much more compelling reason why people will apply for it then saying, 'Actually, it's going to help you', because they don't want to be seen being dependent, they don't want to be seen being helped. But, if you say to them, 'Actually, do you know that this means more money for your child's school?', they go, 'Oh, all right then, I'll fill in the forms now.' So, you're right, I think there is something that we could do to make parents understand, in the round, that this has an impact. But we are actively looking at and discussing whether we could create a dataset around adopted children and how we can do that in line with data protection and data sharing. One of the things I am concerned about in the performance of looked-after children generally is how we can, across Government, work more closely together. We can't see the educational attainment of looked-after children just being a job of education. It's got to be a job of social services and the health service as well. There's got to be a joined-up approach to doing that. Now, officials were at the ministerial advisory group that's chaired by David Melding on prospects for looked-after children. They were there at the group last week. David tells me that the paper was very positively received by the group. I will be sitting down with David Melding to talk through what more we can do on the education side. I think there's really an appetite between me and the Minister for children to get a closer working relationship on this. We can't expect schools to do it on their own and alone. And there are things that we can do out there in local authorities to help improve outcomes. It's not just about the PDG; it is about, when social services are thinking about a placement, where does the discussion about where children are going to go to school—when does that take place? Do we talk about the placement, move a child and then think, 'Oh my goodness me, what are we going to do about the schooling?' If you can imagine, the school could have been working really, really hard with a pupil to get them in a good place, to get them being able to access the curriculum, and then social services decide that the placement is being changed. So, we potentially lose all of that. So, a greater involvement in education and better linked-up working in local authorities will help us with this. It can't be just the job of the PDG. If we think we can crack this with just PDG, then we're being delusional. It has to be a cross-government approach at a national level, and at a local government level as well, to get this right. Sometimes, data protection—how can we break down some of these barriers between, you know, the school doesn't need to, schools shouldn't see, the entire social services report? Well, maybe the school does need to see some of that background information if they're going to have an impact for that child. So, there's more work to do, but it cannot be just the job of education on its own if we're going to make a difference, nor can it just be the job of the PDG to make a difference for those children.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Julie's got some more questions on the impact on adopted and looked-after children.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes, before I go on to those, I just wanted to support, really, what Mark was saying about adopted children and how important it is, I think, that the adoptive parents feel able to speak to the school and to give information. Because certainly any evidence we've had from adoptive parents, and generally knowing about what adoptive parents do feel, is that they often feel that there's a degree of a lack of sensitivity in the school about the issues of adoption. I would certainly support some move towards ensuring that the atmosphere was open in a way that would encourage them to realise that it would be a help for the children if there was an awareness in the school. So, I just wanted to really reinforce that.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and that would chime with what I hear from many adoptive parents. I'm just trying to be sensitive by saying we can't force people to divulge this information if they don't want to.
Julie Morgan AM: No, but they need to be given the opportunity.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, you're right. We need to make sure that those parents feel that they can discuss this with school leaders and classroom teachers and explore how best those individual children can be supported, and how best we can support parents. Because, again—and I've said this a lot—after the quality of teaching, the second biggest impact on a child's educational outcome will be parental engagement. So, being able to create an environment where adoptive parents feel very confident and able to talk about their children's education is absolutely crucial if we're going to get that parental engagement that we need for all of our children.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Thank you. Going on to looked-after children, you say that the latest data on looked-after children's attainment is extremely disappointing. Can you expand on that and what effect the PDG has had in this result, or not had?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, there's no getting away from it: the way in which we currently measure outcomes for looked-after children, the results are not good enough. It's a source of huge concern to me that we need to do better for those children. That's why officials are engaging with the group that David Melding is chairing, to make sure that education is integral to that group and it's not lost sight of. There's a discussion to be had about the cohort, whether it's right and correct to compare looked-after children to the main cohort, or whether these statistics are useful in any way. Sometimes as well—this is not to make an excuse because, as I've said in my paper, it's extremely disappointing, but sometimes it can be really difficult. Because the cohort sometimes can be very, very small, it can swing the statistics to look perhaps more dramatic.
Julie Morgan AM: I think, generally, when you look at how looked-after children do—
Kirsty Williams AM: It's not good.
Julie Morgan AM: —in a much wider evaluation, they're not doing well, are they?
Kirsty Williams AM: They're not doing well. So, that's why we've got the review, the independent review, into the impact of the PDG in this area. This is why Steve is doing the work that he is doing with the regional consortia because, clearly, at the moment, we are not doing what we need to do for that particular cohort of children. I would not make any bones about that at all.
Steve Davies: I think we will not move away from the fact that these children need good GCSEs to gain employment, so we'll continue to measure that. I think we need to look at more nuanced evaluations of the data at a lower level. So, for example, there were significant improvements in terms of PDG pupils who got three and four good GCSEs but didn't get past the threshold. That's not to cover anything that is not working in terms of improvement, but we will look at the full range and still hold on to the fact that we have to look at a measure that relates to the likelihood of these children going on to further education and training.
Julie Morgan AM: And then just one more question about the exclusion rates amongst looked-after children. They are, I understand, over six times more likely to be given a fixed-term exclusion. So, is there any way of trying to address this? Is the PDG used for anything to do with exclusions?
Kirsty Williams AM: We can look at exclusions. We also have to read across about how the whole system works, not just the PDG element of the system. So, we know, for example, that 66 per cent of looked-after learners have some additional learning need, so we can't just look at it in terms of this particular source of funding; we have to look at it at a wider level of support. So, given that the majority of those children will have an ALN, how can we make sure that our new ALN legislation and our new ALN regime meets the needs of these children? So, I think what we're looking at, again, is to say that it can't be just the job of the PDG. That's there as an additional level of support, but actually, we've got to get our ALN right. Unless we get our ALN right, lots and lots of these children are not going to get the support that they need day in, day out via that system. We do know that sometimes, if we're not addressing ALN, then we're not addressing behaviour issues that then potentially lead to an expulsion or potentially lead to non-attendance. So, we've got to look at it in the round and recognise the connections between the sometimes quite complex needs that these children have within the school setting, that are not just as a result of the fact that they're looked after; they have other needs as well.
Steve Davies: And investment in well-being—
Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely. Steve is reminding me that that's why well-being is part of the national mission—to address issues around supporting children with their well-being, which is a way of keeping them in school.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on to Schools Challenge Cymru now. Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you, Chair. I was just wondering what your assessment is as to why some schools made progress and others didn't.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think we have to recognise that the 39 schools that were part of the programme were in very, very different places. So, I think one of the reasons why some schools did well was because their needs were not so complex, not so deep-seated and a certain level of intervention was enough to get them moving forward. Some schools had very, very different needs. I think, talking to those involved in the programme, as always, we had some support advisers, challenge advisers working with those schools as part of the programme who were really, really excellent and really good, and were the right fit for the school and really drove the school onwards. We had other people employed in the programme who, perhaps, were less effective at driving change within those individual schools. So, what we have is a mixed bag of performance, again reflecting the very different challenges that those schools were facing, which led them to be chosen for the programme in the first place.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, okay—
Steve Davies: Sorry. One of the other key additional factors was the extent to which there had been recent appointment of a new headteacher to that school just before the programme had started, because—
Kirsty Williams AM: Leadership is all.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: And that was seen as a positive.
Steve Davies: A positive, yes. I think one of the challenges is that sometimes the time it takes to make changes in leadership can be protracted and can be a barrier, sometimes, to the speed with which you can move. But, for a significant minority of the schools, there had been recent new appointments of headteachers, which was seen to be contributing, when you looked at the evaluation, to the speed with which they were able to engage.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: The reason I was asking was I wanted to understand what lessons the Government is taking from that three-year investment, really, and how, maybe, you're applying some of those lessons to your wider school improvement programme. I know Professor Mel Ainscow identified six interconnected lessons, although I also note that the Cabinet Secretary didn't actually meet him for about six or seven months after coming into post. So, I'm just wondering, can you give us confidence that, actually, you are serious about taking lessons from Schools Challenge Cymru and applying them to the wider school improvement agenda?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, absolutely, Llyr. I don't think anything should be read into when I met the individual concerned, because officials were meeting the individual concerned. Individual challenge advisers were meeting with the regions, there was crossover work with the FSM agenda as well, and we are absolutely determined that best practice and those interventions that drove school improvement are embedded in the new support that we have via the regional consortia. It's no coincidence that some of the best people that were employed by Schools Challenge Cymru are now in the employment of our regional consortia. So, those people that were really good and really made a difference don't work for the Schools Challenge Cymru scheme any more, they work for our regional school improvement services. So, we're absolutely determined. The things that we have learned, as always, are around leadership. It is absolutely key and crucial to have strong, capable school leadership as a driver for change within the system. We're looking at systems and processes, so, actually, has a school got in place comprehensive systems of tracking and processes within the school? We're looking at the teacher quality—how can we ensure that we have got consistent strategies in place to drive up pedagogy and teacher quality in the classroom? Collaborative activity—again, absolutely key. A school cannot see itself in isolation, and one of the key themes of the national mission is a self-improving system, so, collaborative working where schools are looking outside of each other, learning from best practice from other schools. So, there are lots of things that we've drawn from the evaluation that you will see as key themes running through the national mission, and, as I said, it's no coincidence that our really good people that were working in Schools Challenge Cymru are now working for the regional consortia, being able to use that expertise not just for a very small proportion of our schools—but that expertise is available to all our schools.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Although Estyn has told us, of course, that you can't expect the consortia to really carry on with that level of intervention and the same kind of intensity as was provided previously, so I'm just wondering—
Kirsty Williams AM: In what way?
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, we were told by Estyn in evidence that they didn't necessarily think that we could expect the consortia to provide the same type of tailored support, and certainly the level of intensity with the improvement boards and everything—
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the improvement boards are carrying on, so the improvement boards still exist, and I would—not that I want to argue with Estyn—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, feel free; this is your opportunity to do so if you—
Kirsty Williams AM: What I would say is that those improvement boards are staying on, and our schools categorisation system is used to identify the level of support. Now, if you're a red school, that gives you the entitlement to 25 days of support. That is more than you would have got under the Schools Challenge Cymru programme, which would've been 20 days. So, actually, moving to this system allows us to really focus in on those schools that need that intensive level of support. And what's important for me, Llyr, in this, okay, is that those schools are not necessarily just the schools that were in the programme. Our system now of challenge, advice and support allows us to target resources across all of our schools and across all of our sectors, because you'll be aware that Schools Challenge was only available to secondary schools, not available to primary schools. What our system now allows us to do, via the schools categorisation, is to identify schools, wherever they are in Wales and whatever sector they're in, to have that intensive level of support that they need to make improvements.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, you're confident that that level of momentum is continuing through the consortia that was previously enjoyed by those particular schools, and you're also confident that there is minimal risk that they'll slip back to where they were, potentially, or at least part of the way back.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, actually, there are some really good examples of some of the Schools Challenge Cymru schools making that sustained improvement now that the programme has come to an end. You only have to look at Tredegar, where we have seen continual improvement and moving up through the categorisation system. That school is now a green school, so they've been able to sustain their progress at the end of the programme. If we look at Armando in Eastern High School, again—gosh, my goodness me, we had lots of debates in a previous Chamber about the future of Eastern. There was one person that said that Eastern had to be closed and that the only way forward for that particular school was for it to be shut down, but what we have seen is investment via Schools Challenge Cymru, but ongoing, continual support from the regional consortium, and that school has come out of special measures. I pay absolute tribute to the staff of that school and that community that have done such a good job. So, I'm absolutely convinced that where we've got good leadership and good support, some of those schools are making continued, sustained progress even after the end of the programme. The challenge for me is for those schools that Schools Challenge Cymru didn't work for, and we haven't seen that progress—how we can use our school improvement system now to continue to work with those schools to give them the level of support that they need to make a difference. So that's what my focus is on now: a whole-system approach, rather than choosing 39 schools to get that level of support, when we recognise that there are schools everywhere, potentially, that need intervention, support and challenge, and in the primary sector as well.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. So, you wouldn't agree with a number of—well, the near-unanimous evidence that we've had from academics, some of whom are Government advisers from consortia et cetera, that this kind of programme such as Schools Challenge Cymru would probably need about five years to really have the impact that it was intended to have.
Kirsty Williams AM: What I would say is that, from my understanding, from the outset, it was a time-limited programme. The schools were aware of that. There were no surprises that it was supposed to be a time-limited programme. Evidence from across the UK showed that school challenge programmes have differed in time. So, for instance, Manchester's challenge was a three-year programme. So, there's no consensus about how many years you need to run a programme for. The previous Minister was quite clear about the time-limited nature of the programme. That's not to say it was the wrong decision, because what's important, and an ongoing legacy of the programme, was the investment in regional school improvement capacity, because at the time our school improvement services and the regions were young, in their infancy. The ability of individual local authorities to make a difference, with so many local authorities in an Estyn categorisation, was limited, so one of the ongoing legacies of the programme is that significant investment of over £10 million in the capacity of the regions to be able to continue this support and the school improvement work.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, how disappointed were you that the money for Schools Challenge Cymru went back into reserves and didn't stay in your envelope, as you described it earlier? I presume you made a pitch for it. Did you make a case for that money to stay within your department?
Kirsty Williams AM: Llyr, we are constantly having discussions with the Minister for Finance around support for the education budget. The Minister for Finance was quite clear that it was a time-limited programme. We were able to secure investment from the Finance Minister to be able to secure the programme and run it and phase it out to make sure there was transition support, so as we moved from the schools challenge programme into the regional consortia, there were resources to do that.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Did you feel there was a case to be made to add to the consortia's resources and be able to continue that level of support that schools had previously had?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, we did make resources available to the regional consortia to do that. As I say, from the outset, the previous Minister was very clear it was a time-limited programme. Certainly the schools that I talk to—. And I want to be absolutely clear: I have visited many, many Schools Challenge Cymru schools. I have used that opportunity to talk to them about—Heolddu being one of them, Hefin, which we went to visit, and Willows, for instance. I'm going to one this afternoon—I'm going to St Illtyd's this afternoon, and I always take—. I've been to Caergybi in Anglesey. I always take the opportunity to speak to those teachers about their experience of the programme and to understand and assure myself that they are getting ongoing support that they see as an appropriate level for them. I think I've done 19 of the schools.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin on this.
Hefin David AM: With regard to it being a time-limited programme, the previous Minister was clear that it was a time-limited programme, but it wasn't quite as time-limited as you've decided to be. Is that fair to say?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, it was supposed to be a three-year programme at the most. So, there's no differential between when I decided it was time-limited and the expectations—
Hefin David AM: So the time limit was the same that the previous Minister put on it.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. No change.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: But Mel Ainscow did tell us that there was a fade out in that third year—not that people were giving up, don't get me wrong, but clearly there wasn't that commitment coming from Government because the decision had been made, and people felt that it was just fizzling out a little bit, and that impacted on the momentum.
Kirsty Williams AM: I wouldn't characterise it as that. I think there certainly was a transition phase when we knew that the programme was moving and schools were moving into a different level of support, but I certainly wouldn't describe it as a fading out—not at all. As I said, we were aware that the programme was transitioning and we were determined to get that right for those individual schools, and to learn the lessons and, crucially, to be able to apply those lessons right across the board.
Steve Davies: I can see where the perception would come if a programme director like Mel was managing the programme right to the end of the three years exactly the same, and it falls off—not a cliff, but it falls off, then the readiness for schools and the readiness in the system to hand over—so part of the shift of focus was that working as a Government with the programme in those schools to working with the programme, those schools and the region. So, I think, inevitably, one party might see it as a decrease in terms of emphasis on their work, but it was necessary for the transition.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: But does that cast a bit of a shadow over the transition, then—that one key player within that process felt as such, or are you confident that that was managed well and effectively?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think it was managed well, and we were very clear to recognise success where success has been achieved, but not to gloss over where the programme had not made an impact, because that wouldn't be good for anybody. There was a formal event to close the programme, which gave everybody an opportunity to get together, to be formally thanked, and for, as I said, congratulations to be given to those people who had really made a difference and, crucially, key staff transferred over into the regional consortia. So, for those individuals, they were able to continue their work, but just be able to apply that work on a regional basis rather than just in an individual school. So, I don't see that there was any fading out, but there was a transition into a new system, and many of those key personnel transitioned into the system with us.
Lynne Neagle AM: Have you got any figures for the numbers of staff who went from the programme into the consortia?
Kirsty Williams AM: Not off the top of my head, but I can let you know.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got Darren first, then Mark.
Kirsty Williams AM: And can I just say, I met with some of them? I met with a selection of those people who had been involved in the programme to get their feedback on what they felt had gone right, and what they didn't feel had gone right in the programme. So, I took the time not just to meet the figurehead of the programme, but actually to meet the people who were doing the work in the individual schools. Sorry.
Darren Millar AM: Yes, I just wanted to ask you, you mentioned the figurehead there, I assume by 'the figurehead' you mean Professor Ainscow. And you've mentioned as well that you said you wanted to learn lessons from Schools Challenge Cymru, but he told us that nobody had been in touch with him since March of last year in order to have any sort of follow-up engagement, or to have a dialogue about his perspective on what worked, what didn't work, why there were failures in some areas and why there were successes in others. Why haven't you sought that level of engagement with the person who was responsible for running the programme?
Kirsty Williams AM: I've had that conversation with Mr Ainscow. We had the evaluation of the programme. We've spoken to the people who were actually involved in running the programme on a daily basis in individual schools. We've spoken to the regional consortia. We've spoken to local education authorities. We've spoken to a wide variety of people to get their insight into the lessons learned, what was valuable and what was not valuable. So, a wide variety of people have been involved in those conversations.
Darren Millar AM: But you've hardly engaged with Mr Ainscow—with Professor Ainscow himself.
Steve Davies: I would actually say that I have had meetings—
Darren Millar AM: Since March of last year.
Steve Davies: Yes, since March of last year. I haven't got the exact dates for you. I've had discussions with Mel Ainscow, and my line manager at the time, Owen Evans, also had meetings and discussions.
Darren Millar AM: So, when he told us, 'Since last March, I literally have had no contact at all with anybody from Welsh Government', he was telling porky pies, was he?
Steve Davies: That's not my recollection. I'll go back and check for you.
Lynne Neagle AM: If you could check and let us know, that would be good. Mark.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, well, I just talked about the celebration event to formally mark the end of the programme. My understanding was that it was July of last year, so people were engaged in that. And this idea that somebody has been ignored or frozen out is not how I see or how I regard that situation.
Lynne Neagle AM: Mark.
Mark Reckless AM: I have to say, with Professor Ainscow my impression was he took great, great pride in the work that he'd done with Schools Challenge Cymru, and I think he really enjoyed the engagement, the work and the positive relations with the Welsh Government. But I think there was just a degree of disappointment, perhaps, that at least he didn't feel that he'd been interrogated as much as he might have been about the lessons learned from the programme, and how perhaps to entrench those as well as possible with the regional consortia. I just wonder, Cabinet Secretary, if you could invite the professor in, perhaps to have a further debrief with you and take account of some of his thoughts and suggestions for what might help in this area.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, Mark, as I said, I just don't think it should be right to characterise this as a failure to engage with a single individual.
Mark Reckless AM: I'm not characterising it that way, Cabinet Secretary.
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, I met with him, Steve has met with him, Owen Evans has met with him, my special policy adviser has met with him and had discussions. So, there has been an ongoing dialogue. But, Mark, I hope that I have demonstrated since I took on this job that I am willing to work with a wide variety of people and to tap into their expertise if it can help me to deliver on the national mission. And if the advice to me is that we haven't sufficiently learnt the lessons, then I'll gladly have another conversation. What I'm saying to you—and I'm absolutely confident—is that we have learnt the lessons, we are taking that work and the good practice forward, and we have done that with conversations with a wide variety of people who had a view on this, from individual schools that were involved in the programme, individual people who were working in those schools, local education authorities, some of which have been very scathing about the programme, I should say, regional consortia—. So, the lessons, I am confident, have been learnt.
Mark Reckless AM: I'm glad to hear that, Cabinet Secretary, but I still say that, listening to Professor Ainscow's evidence, there was a perception, at least from him individually, that the programme should not be seen to be a failure, but a desire that the lessons should be learnt and a feeling or exception, at least on his part, that there was more that he still had to contribute to the process. And just to take one particular example, I think he referred to the Schools Challenge Cymru advisers being very successful in bringing in people who might not otherwise have contributed to this, and the regional consortia have had greater challenges in recruiting people, perhaps in some areas, of the same high standard of some particular individuals, but also from a wide range of different areas that the Schools Challenge Cymru do, and that there could be more to learn in that area as to how to support real excellence and a greater diversity of recruitment for those people. Is that something you could perhaps draw on his thoughts further about? Because I think he does feel that he has more to say to Welsh Government to help in this area.
Kirsty Williams AM: Firstly, can I say that I have never described the programme as a failure? I would understand, as someone who has put so much personal investment into the brand of schools challenges, that he would not want anybody to characterise that particular approach to school improvement as a failure. And I want to be absolutely clear that I have never described the programme as a failure, and I want to reassure Mr Ainscow of that. As I've said, gosh, my goodness me, if you saw my e-mail inbox and you saw the letters that come in, people are never shy in coming forward to give me advice on what I need to do, what I need to do next, what I'm doing right, what I'm doing wrong, and, you know, our doors are always open to listen to people who have interesting things to say about how we can deliver our educational mission. So, people aren't slow in coming forward, I can assure you, with advice.
Lynne Neagle AM: Julie.
Julie Morgan AM: Just very quickly. I'm sure the Minister is aware that Cardiff put extra funds of its own in to continue Schools Challenge Cymru advisers. So, obviously, they appreciated the value of the scheme, but it does query whether it should have gone on longer.
Kirsty Williams AM: Julie, I think, to be fair, there are some people who think the scheme was absolutely fantastic. I've had feedback from people who didn't think the scheme was helpful at all—in fact, they felt it was a hindrance. I'm very much of the view that the scheme worked really well for some schools in some areas and had less impact in some areas. There is a mixed picture. What's important to me is that we understand what it was that led those schools to make those big changes, how we can—like Mark talked about, the expertise—how we can keep that expertise in the system, and how we can apply the lessons to all schools.
Lynne Neagle AM: The next questions, and the final questions, are from John. So, we're going to need succinct questions and succinct answers.
John Griffiths AM: Some questions on regional consortia, Cabinet Secretary, and, first of all, the role that you believe they should play and how schools use PDG.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, it's an absolute—. It's one of the things that I have been very clear to the regional consortia that I expect their challenge and support advisers to be asking schools about. So, one of the conversations that they need to have when they are in schools is exploring, with that school, how they are using their PDG, and how they're demonstrating an impact for those resources. So, it's a fundamental role for the challenge and support advisers in the regional consortia in their school improvement work. It's crucial.
John Griffiths AM: That sort of brings to mind some of the research that's been done on the role of the challenge advisers, Cabinet Secretary, which suggested that they're not actually challenging schools in that way, and that there's very little evidence of schools changing their decisions on the use of PDG as a result of any challenge from those challenge advisers. So, how would you respond to those findings?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, in my scrutiny of the role and success of our regional consortia, I specifically asked them about free-school-meal performance and the use of PDG within their particular region. I think there is increasing evidence to suggest that good use is being made of that resource, and I think that is being fed back into us. Estyn tell us that it's one of the areas of school expenditure that is closely linked to research and an evidence base. But, clearly, there is more to do, and that's why we have appointed the new regional advisers for PDG going forward, because we think there can be improvements in how this agenda can be supported at a regional level.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. So, you would recognise the findings from that research.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. There's always more that we can do, and we are strengthening that role by the appointment of the new regional PDG advisers, so that individual school challenge advisers know what they should be looking for, know what they should be doing, and there is a regional approach to good practice.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could you tell the committee, Cabinet Secretary, how effective you believe the relationship was between the Schools Challenge Cymru programme and the regional consortia's school improvement functions, and to what extent it varied by region?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think it's fair to say that, on occasion, I have received feedback that there was a conflict between what was going on at an individual school under the school improvement programme and whether, then, they welcomed support from the regional consortia as part of that. So, in some cases, if we're being absolutely honest, there could sometimes be tensions between the two, but in most cases, the relationship was very, very positive and there was continuous feedback between the work going on in the schools under the programme and the regional consortia challenge advisers. But I'm going to be blunt and honest with people—in some cases, it has been reported to me—it's only anecdotal evidence; I haven't got hard and fast evidence—that there sometimes was a conflict: 'We're a school challenge school so we don't need to participate or listen to any advice that's coming from the regional consortia.' Or, a local education authority said to me, 'We felt that we couldn't get involved in that school anymore because it was part of a different programme.' Those were isolated incidents, and, as I said, it's only anecdotal feedback. In most cases, the relationship was a very positive one.
Steve Davies: Just very quickly, I think that, across the board, it was more complex in the beginning, getting—[Inaudible.]. But when the programme itself recognised that they needed to work with the regions, and the regions needed to work with them—and I think Mel Ainscow in his evidence referred to this—it strengthened after some early challenges. I think Mel Ainscow was working in a number of regions—I can't remember which ones—so he's established relationships—[Interruption.] Sorry?
Kirsty Williams AM: Central south.
Steve Davies: Central south. He has already been working in that, so I think it possibly had a stronger springboard in terms of the early working.
Kirsty Williams AM: Because he already had relationships that he had already developed in that particular region. As always, with many of these things, it's about individuals and relationships.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Finally from me, Cabinet Secretary: in 2015-16, Estyn reported on regional consortia not sufficiently focusing on particular groups of pupils and tracking their outcomes—for example, vulnerable pupils. I just wonder what you are able to tell us in terms of to what extent there has been necessary progress since 2015-16.
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. Well, I think it's important to recognise that all four consortia underwent monitoring visits in the autumn of last year, of 2017, which weren't reflected in the Estyn annual report for 2015-16. Estyn, through these 2017 inspections, have said that three out of the four regional consortia are making strong progress in their particular work, and we are continuing, as Welsh Government, to work with the other regional consortia to address the findings of the Estyn report.
John Griffiths AM: And that would include these particular issues.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, absolutely. The committee probably hasn't had an opportunity to see, but, only this morning, Estyn has released a report on more able and talented, and has positive things to say in the field of more able and talented, which was being asked about earlier by Members—you know, evidence of improved working and support in that particular arena. But, again, we need to ensure a consistency across all the regions, and that the findings of Estyn's most recent reports into regional performance are followed through.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. As we've got a couple of minutes left, if I can just jump back to the issue of practical uses of the PDG—because it's the only thing we haven't really covered and it would be good to get on the record—can I ask to what extent you'd like to see the PDG used to track the progress of eligible pupils? And the committee's heard that there are several different tracking systems and tools used by schools. To what extent is that an issue to do with what the Welsh Government is promoting? Or is it down to consortia or individual schools? And do you think there needs to be a more centralised push on how the tracking is undertaken?
Kirsty Williams AM: Firstly, can I say it's absolutely crucial that we track performance, absolutely crucial? That's the bedrock. We don't dictate to individual schools the nature of the system that they should employ in their school. There are a number of different programmes that allow schools to do this, but we are absolutely clear, and best practice and evidence shows us, that individual pupil tracking is key and crucial. And, as I said in the beginning, where we weren't tracking pupils at all, initial investment in PDG was used to establish these systems within schools. Again, one of the outcomes from the schools challenge review, and one of the lessons learnt, was, again, the importance of individual tracking of pupils throughout their school career. But we don't dictate a single system.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you.
Kirsty Williams AM: But the principle is a really important one.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, and you don't think there's more scope to look at what the best system is that can be recommended to schools.
Kirsty Williams AM: That's not something we're actively looking at. I am actively looking at developing a Welsh toolkit around good practice, evidence base and research. At the moment we use the Sutton Trust toolkit, which is fine and excellent, but we are having active discussions about whether we're in a position, now, to look at developing a suite of a Welsh toolkit to support this agenda, and that's under active consideration.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Well, we've reached the end of our session. Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary and the officials for attending and for answering such a wide range of questions? As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for coming.
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you very much.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Okay. Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children and Social Care on Families First funding. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education, updating us on the supply teacher issue. Paper to note 3—another letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education, providing further information following our meeting on 15 February. Paper to note 4 is a letter from the WJEC on availability of textbooks. Paper to note 5—a letter from Qualifications Wales, also on availability of textbooks. And paper to note 6 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales, following up on the dialogue that they've been having about our inquiry. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then, is for me to propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Thank you. | |
doc_116 | Grad C: Hmm . Testing channel two .
Grad E: Two , two .
Grad C: Two .
Grad E: Two . Oh .
Grad D: Hello ?
Grad B: Hmm ? Yeah Thank You . OK Well , so Ralf and Tilman are here .
Professor F: OK . Great . Great .
Grad B: Made it safely .
Professor F: So the {disfmarker} what w we h have been doing i they would like us all to read these digits . But we don't all read them but a couple people read them .
PhD A: OK .
Professor F: Uh , wanna give them all with German accents today or {disfmarker} ?
Grad B: Sure .
Professor F: OK .
Grad B: OK and the way you do it is you just read the numbers not as uh each single , so just like I do it .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: OK . First you read the transcript number . Turn .
Grad D: OK , uh {disfmarker} What 's {disfmarker}
Professor F: OK . Let 's be done with this .
PhD A: OK .
Professor F: OK . this is Ami , who {disfmarker} And this is Tilman and Ralf .
PhD A: Hi . Uh - huh . Nice to meet you .
Grad D: Hi .
Professor F: Hi . OK . So we 're gonna try to finish by five so people who want to can go hear Nancy Chang 's talk , uh downstairs .
PhD A: Hmm .
Professor F: And you guys are g giving talks on tomorrow and Wednesday lunch times ,
PhD A: Yes .
Grad D: Mmm .
Professor F: right ? That 's great . OK so , do y do you know what we 're gonna do ?
Grad B: I thought two things uh we 'll introduce ourselves and what we do . And um we already talked with Andreas , Thilo and David and some lines of code were already written today and almost tested and just gonna say we have um again the recognizer to parser thing where we 're working on and that should be no problem and then that can be sort of developed uh as needed when we get {disfmarker} enter the tourism domain . em we have talked this morning with the {disfmarker} with Tilman about the generator .
PhD A: S
Grad B: and um There one of our diligent workers has to sort of volunteer to look over Tilman 's shoulder while he is changing the grammars to English
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: because w we have {disfmarker} we face two ways . Either we do a syllable concatenating um grammar for the English generation which is sort of starting from scratch and doing it the easy way , or we simply adopt the ah um more in - depth um style that is implemented in the German system and um are then able not only to produce strings but also the syntactic parse uh not parse not the syntactic tree that is underneath in the syntactic structure which is the way we decided we were gonna go because A , it 's easier in the beginning
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: and um it does require some {disfmarker} some knowledge of {disfmarker} of those grammars and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and some ling linguistic background . But um it shouldn't be a problem for anyone .
Professor F: OK So That sounds good . Johno , are you gonna have some time t to do that uh w with these guys ?
Grad E: Sure .
Professor F: cuz y you 're the grammar maven .
Grad E: OK .
Professor F: I mean it makes sense ,
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor F: doesn't it ? Yeah Good . OK . So , I think that 's probably the {disfmarker} the right way to do that . And an Yeah , so I {disfmarker} I actually wanna f to find out about it too , but I may not have time to get in .
Grad B: the {disfmarker} the ultimate goal is that before they leave we {disfmarker} we can run through the entire system input through output on at least one or two sample things . And um and by virtue of doing that then in this case Johno will have acquired the knowledge of how to extend it . Ad infinitum . When needed , if needed , when wanted and so forth .
Professor F: OK that sounds great .
Grad B: And um also um Ralf has hooked up with David and you 're gonna continue either all through tonight or tomorrow on whatever to get the er parser interface working .
Grad D: Mmm .
Grad B: They are thinning out and thickening out lattices and doing this kind of stuff to see what works best .
Grad D: Mmm , yep .
Professor F: Great . So , you guys enjoy your weekend ?
PhD A: Yes , very much so .
Grad D: Yeah , very much
Professor F: OK , before {disfmarker} before you got put to work ?
Grad D: Yeah
Professor F: Great . OK , so that 's {disfmarker} Sort of one branch is to get us caught up on what 's going on . Also of course it would be really nice to know what the plans are , in addition to what 's sort of already in code .
PhD A: Yes .
Professor F: and we can d I dunno w w was there uh a time when we were set up to do that ? It probably will work better if we do it later in the week , after {pause} we actually understand uh better what 's going on .
PhD A: Yes .
Grad D: Hmm .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor F: So when do you guys leave ?
PhD A: Um we 're here through Sunday ,
Grad D: Oh
PhD A: so All through Friday would be fine .
Professor F: Oh , OK , so {disfmarker} OK , So {disfmarker} so anyt we 'll find a time later in the week to uh get together and talk about {pause} your understanding of what SmartKom plans are .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: and how we can change them .
PhD A: Yes . Sure .
Professor F: Uh ,
Grad B: Should we already set a date for that ? Might be beneficial while we 're all here .
Professor F: OK ? um What {disfmarker} what does not work for me is Thursday afternoon . I can do earlier in the day on Thursday , or {pause} um {pause} most of the time on Friday , not all .
Grad B: Thursday morning sounds fine ?
Professor F: Wha - but , Johno ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: what are your constraints ?
Grad E: um Thursday afternoon doesn't work for me , but {disfmarker}
Grad B: Neither does Thursday morning , no ?
Grad E: Uh Thursday morning should be fine .
PhD A: OK .
Professor F: Eleven ? Eleven on Thursday ?
Grad E: I was just thinking I w I will {pause} have {pause} leavened by eleven .
Professor F: Right . Right . This is then out of deference to our non - morning people .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . OK . So at eleven ?
Grad D: Hmm .
PhD A: Thursday around eleven ? OK .
Professor F: Yeah . And actually we can invite um Andreas as well .
Grad B: Uh he will be in Washington , though .
Professor F: Oh that 's true . He 's off {disfmarker} off on his trip already .
Grad B: but um David is here and he 's actually knows everything about the SmartKom recognizer .
Professor F: Thilo . OK well yeah maybe we 'll see if David could make it . That would be good .
Grad B: OK so facing to {disfmarker} to what we 've sort of been doing here um well for one thing we 're also using this room to collect data .
PhD A: Yeah obviously .
Grad B: um um Not this type of data ,
PhD A: Oh , OK .
Grad B: no not meeting data but sort of {disfmarker} sort ah our version of a wizard experiment such not like the ones in Munich but pretty close to it .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: The major difference to the Munich ones is that we do it via the telephone
PhD A: OK .
Grad B: even though all the recording is done here and so it 's a {disfmarker} sort of a computer call system that gives you tourist information
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: tells you how to get places . And it breaks halfway through the experiment and a human operator comes on . and part of that is sort of trying to find out whether people change their linguistic verbal behavior when first thinking they speak to a machine and then to a human .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad B: and we 're setting it up so that we can {disfmarker} we hope to implant certain intentions in people . For example um we have first looked at a simple sentence that " How do I get to the Powder - Tower ? " OK so you have the {disfmarker} castle of Heidelberg
PhD A: OK .
Grad B: and there is a tower and it 's called Powder - Tower .
PhD A: Oh , OK . Yeah .
Grad B: and um so What will you parse out of that sentence ? Probably something that we specified in M - three - L , that is @ @ {comment} " action go to whatever domain , object whatever Powder - Tower " .
Grad D: Mmm .
Grad B: And maybe some model will tell us , some GPS module , in the mobile scenario where the person is at the moment . And um we 've sort of gone through that once before in the Deep Mail project and we noticed that first of all what are {disfmarker} I should 've brought some slides , but what our {disfmarker} So here 's the tower . Think of this as a two - dimensional representation of the tower . And our system led people here , to a point where they were facing a wall in front of the tower . There is no entrance there , but it just happens to be the closest point of the road network to the geometric center Because that 's how the algorithm works . So we took out that part of the road network as a hack and then it found actually the way to the entrance . which was now the closest point of the road network to
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad B: OK , geometric center . But what we actually observed in Heidelberg is that most people when they want to go there they actually don't want to enter , because it 's not really interesting . They wanna go to a completely different point where they can look at it and take a picture .
PhD A: Oh , OK .
Grad D: Hmm .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad B: And so what uh uh a s you s let 's say a simple parse from a s from an utterance won't really give us is what the person actually wants . Does he wanna go there to see it ? Does he wanna go there now ? Later ? How does the person wanna go there ? Is that person more likely to want to walk there ? Walk a scenic route ? and so forth . There are all kinds of decisions that we have identified in terms of getting to places and in terms of finding information about things . And we are constructing {disfmarker} and then we 've identified more or less the extra - linguistic parameters that may f play a role . Information related to the user and information related to the situation . And we also want to look closely on the linguistic information that what we can get from the utterance . That 's part of why we implant these intentions in the data collection to see whether people actually phrase things differently whether they want to enter in order to buy something or whether they just wanna go there to look at it . And um so the idea is to construct uh um suitable interfaces and a belief - net for a module that actually tries to guess what the underlying intention {pause} was . And then enrich or augment the M - three - L structures with what it thought what more it sort of got out of that utterance . So if it can make a good suggestion , " Hey ! " you know , " that person doesn't wanna enter . That person just wants to take a picture , " cuz he just bought film , or " that person wants to enter because he discussed the admission fee before " . Or " that person wants to enter because he wants to buy something and that you usually do inside of buildings " and so forth . These ah these types of uh these bits of additional information are going to be embedded into the M - three - L structure in an {disfmarker} sort of subfield that we have reserved . And if the action planner does something with it , great . If not you know , then that 's also something um that we can't really {disfmarker} at least we {comment} want to offer the extra information . We don't really {disfmarker} um we 're not too worried .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: Hmm .
Grad B: I mean {disfmarker} t s Ultimately if you have {disfmarker} if you can offer that information , somebody 's gonna s do something with it sooner or later . That 's sort of part of our belief .
Grad E: What was he saying ?
Grad B: Um , for example , right now I know the GIS from email is not able to calculate these viewpoints . So that 's a functionality that doesn't exist yet to do that dynamically ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: but if we can offer it that distinction , maybe somebody will go ahead and implement it . Surely nobody 's gonna go ahead and implement it if it 's never gonna be used , so . What have I forgotten about ? Oh yeah , how we do it ,
Professor F: Well th uh
Grad B: yeah that 's the
Professor F: No no . It 's a good time to pause . I s I see {pause} questions on peoples ' faces , so why don't {disfmarker}
PhD A: Oh
Professor F: let 's {disfmarker} let 's {disfmarker} Let 's hear {disfmarker}
PhD A: Well the obvious one would be if {disfmarker} if you envision this as a module within SmartKom , where exactly would that Sit ? That 's the d
Grad B: um {disfmarker} so far I 've thought of it as sort of adding it onto the modeler knowledge module .
PhD A: OK , yeah .
Grad B: So this is one that already adds additional information to the
Grad D: Hmm .
PhD A: Makes perfect sense . Yes .
Grad D: Hmm , ah .
Grad B: but it could sit anywhere in the attention - recognition I mean basically this is what attention - recognition literally sort of can {disfmarker}
PhD A: Well it 's supposed to do . Yeah
Grad D: Mmm .
Professor F: That 's what it should do .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor F: Right ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor F: yeah .
Grad D: Huh .
Grad B: Yeah .
PhD A: Well f from my understanding of what the people at Phillips were originally trying to do doesn't seem to quite fit into SmartKom currently so what they 're really doing right now is only selecting among the alternatives , the hypotheses that they 're given enriched by the domain knowledge and the um discourse modeler and so on .
Grad B: Yeah .
PhD A: So if {disfmarker} if this is additional information that could be merged in by them .
Grad B: Yeah .
PhD A: And then it would be available to action planning and {disfmarker} and others .
Grad B: Yeah . the {disfmarker}
Professor F: let 's {disfmarker} let 's That w OK that was one question . Is there other {disfmarker} other things that cuz {pause} we wanna not Pa - pass over any {pause} you know , questions or concerns that you have .
PhD A: Well there 're {disfmarker} there 're two levels of {disfmarker} of giving an answer and I guess on both levels I don't have any um further questions .
Grad D: Mmm . Mmm .
PhD A: uh the {disfmarker} the two levels will be as far as I 'm concerned as {pause} uh standing here for the generation module
Grad D: Mmm .
PhD A: and the other is {disfmarker} is my understanding of what SmartKom uh is supposed to be
Professor F: Right .
PhD A: and I {disfmarker} I think that fits in perfectly
Professor F: So {disfmarker} well , let me {disfmarker} Let me s {pause} expand on that a little bit from the point of view of the generation .
Grad D: Hmm .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor F: So the idea is that we 've actually got this all laid out an and we could show it to you ig um Robert didn't bring it today but there 's a {disfmarker} a belief - net which is {disfmarker} There 's a first cut at a belief - net that {disfmarker} that doesn't {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} isn't fully uh instantiated , and in particular some of the {disfmarker} the combination rules and ways of getting the {disfmarker} the conditional probabilities aren't there . But we believe that we have laid out the fundamental decisions in this little space
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: and the things that influence them . So one of the decisions is what we call this AVE thing . Do you want to um access , view or enter a thing .
Grad D: Hmm .
Professor F: So that 's a a discrete decision .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: There are only three possibilities and the uh {disfmarker} what one would like is for this uh , knowledge modeling module to add which of those it is and give it to the planner .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: But , uh th the current design suggests that if it seems to be an important decision and if the belief - net is equivocal so that it doesn't say that one of these is much more probable than the other , then an option is to go back and ask for the information you want .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: Alright ? Now there are two ways one can go {disfmarker} a imagine doing that . For the debugging we 'll probably just have a {disfmarker} a drop - down menu and the {disfmarker} while you 're debugging you will just {disfmarker} OK . But for a full system , then one might very well formulate a query ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: give it to the dialogue planner and say this , you know ar are you know you {disfmarker} are you planning to enter ? Or whatever it {disfmarker} whatever that might be . So that 's {disfmarker} under that model then , There would be a {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} um a loop in which this thing would formulate a query ,
PhD A: Yes .
Professor F: presumably give it to you . That would get expressed and then hopefully you know , you 'd get an answer {pause} back .
PhD A: Yep .
Professor F: And that would of course {disfmarker} the answer would have to be parsed .
Grad D: Mmm . Yep .
Professor F: right and {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yes .
Professor F: OK so , {pause} th {pause} that uh , We probably won't do this early on , because the current focus is more on the decision making and stuff like that .
PhD A: Yep .
Professor F: But While we 're on the subject I just wanted to give you a sort of head 's up that it could be that some months from now we said " OK we 're now ready to try to close that loop " in terms of querying about some of these decisions .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad D: Hmm .
PhD A: Yep . So {disfmarker} my suggestion then is that you um look into the currently ongoing discussion about how the action plans are supposed to look like . And they 're currently um Agreeing or {disfmarker} or in the process of agreeing on an X M L - ification of um something like a state - transition network of how dialogues would proceed . and {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} these um transition networks uh will be what the action planner interprets in a sense .
Professor F: Hmm . D did you know this Robert ?
Grad B: uh Michael is doing that , right ?
PhD A: Well uh Marcus Lerkult is actually implementing that stuff and Marcus and Michael together are um leading the discussion there , yeah .
Grad B: OK .
Professor F: So we ha we have to get in on that .
PhD A: Yep .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: Mmm .
Professor F: because um partly those are like X - schemas .
PhD A: Definitely .
Professor F: the transition diagrams .
Grad B: Hmm .
Professor F: And it may be that {disfmarker} that um we should early on make sure that they have the flexibility that we need .
Grad B: Hmm . But they uh Have I understood this right ? They {disfmarker} they govern more or less the {disfmarker} the dialogue behavior or the action {disfmarker}
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: It 's not really what you do with the content of the dialogue but it 's So , I mean there is this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this nice interf
Grad D: uh , No , it 's {disfmarker} it 's also a quantrant uh uh {disfmarker}
Grad B: i Is it {disfmarker}
Professor F: So there 's ac so there {disfmarker} th the word " action " , OK , is {disfmarker} is what 's ambiguous here .
Grad D: I think . Hmm .
PhD A: Yes .
Professor F: So , um one thing is there 's an actual planner that tells the person in the tourist domain now ,
PhD A: OK .
Professor F: per tells the person how to go , " First go here ,
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: first go there uh , you know , take a bus " , whatever it is . So that 's that form of planning , and action , and a route planner and GIS , all sort of stuff . uh But I think that isn't what you mean .
PhD A: No . No , in SmartKom terminology that 's um called a function that 's modeled by a function modeler . And it 's th that 's completely um encapsulated from th the dialogue system . That 's simply a functionality that you give data as in a query and then you get back from that mmm , a functioning model um which might be a planner or a VCR or whatever . um some result and that 's then {disfmarker} then used .
Professor F: Well , OK , so that 's what I thought . So action he action here means dia uh speech ac uh you know dialogue act .
PhD A: Yeah , yeah . Yeah , in that {disfmarker} in that sense
Grad B: Mmm .
PhD A: yes , dialogue act ,
Professor F: Yeah .
PhD A: yeah .
Professor F: Um , I think tha I think it 's not going to {disfmarker} I think that 's not going to be good enough . I I don what uh {disfmarker} what I meant by that . So I think the idea of having a , you know , transition diagram for the grammar of conversations is a good idea .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: OK ? And I think that we do hav definitely have to get in on it and find out {disfmarker} OK . But I think that um when {disfmarker} so , when you get to the tourist domain it 's not just an information retrieval system .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . Clearly . Yes .
Professor F: Right ? So this i this is where I think this {disfmarker} people are gonna have to think this through a bit more carefully .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: So , if it 's only like in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the film and T V thing , OK , you can do this . And you just get information and give it to people . But what happens when you actually get them moving and so forth and so on
PhD A: Yep .
Professor F: Uh , y y your {disfmarker} I d I think the notion of this as a self contained uh module you know th the functional module that {disfmarker} that interacts with {disfmarker} with where the tourism g stuff is going {comment} probably is too restrictive .
PhD A: Yep .
Professor F: Now I dunno how much people have thought ahead to the tourist domain in this
PhD A: Probably not enough , I mean an {disfmarker} another uh more basic point there is that the current um tasks and therefore th the concepts in this ac what 's called the action plan and what 's really the dialogue manager .
Professor F: Yeah
PhD A: um is based on slots that have to be filled and the um kind of values in these slots would be fixed things like the a time or a movie title or something like this
Professor F: Mm - hmm . Right .
PhD A: whereas in the a um tourist domain it might be an entire route . Set - based , or even very complex structured information in these slots
Professor F: Indeed . Right .
PhD A: and I 'm not sure if {disfmarker} if complex slots of that type are really um being taken into consideration .
Professor F: OK .
PhD A: So that 's {disfmarker} that 's really something we
Professor F: Could you {disfmarker} could you put a message into the right place to see if we can at least ask that question ?
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: Yep .
PhD A: I mean nothing 's being completely settled there
Grad B: rea yep
PhD A: so this is really an ongoing discussion
Grad B: Mm - hmm
PhD A: and that 's
Grad B: yeah and um it might actually OK ah also {disfmarker} because um again in in Deep Map we have faced and implemented those problems once already
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: maybe we can even shuffle some know how from there to to Markus and Michael .
PhD A: Yes .
Grad D: Mmm .
PhD A: Yep .
Grad B: And um mmm You don't know {disfmarker} OK th I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll talk to Michael it 's what I do anyway . Who {disfmarker} How far is the uh the {disfmarker} the M - three - L specification for {disfmarker} for the la natural language input gone on the {disfmarker} the uh I haven't seen anything for the uh tourist path domain .
Grad D: Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's not defined yet .
Grad B: And um you are probably also involved in that ,
Grad D: Um {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad B: right ? uh together with the usual gang , um Petra and Jan
Grad D: Mmm . Yeah , there 's a meeting next next week I think
Grad B: OK because That 's {disfmarker} Those are the {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} the true key issues is how does the whatever comes out of the language input pipeline look like and then what the action planner does with it {disfmarker} and how that is uh specified . I didn't think of the internal working of the uh the action planner and the language {disfmarker} uh the function model as sort of relevant . Because what {disfmarker} what they take is sort of this {disfmarker} this fixed representation of a {disfmarker} of an intention .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: And that can be as detailed or as crude as you want it to be . But um the internal workings of of the {disfmarker} whether you know there 're dialogue {disfmarker} action planners that work with belief - nets that are action planners that work with you know state automata . So that shouldn't really matter too much . I mean it does matter because it does have to keep track of you {disfmarker} we are on part six of r a route that consists of eight steps and so forth
PhD A: Right .
Professor F: Yeah , th there {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} I think there are a lot of reasons why it matters . OK , so that uh , for example , the i it 's the action planner is going to take some spec and s make some suggestions about what the user should do . What the user says after that is going to be very much caught up with what the action planner told it .
PhD A: Yes .
Professor F: If the {disfmarker} If the parser and the language end doesn't know what the person 's been told OK th it 's you 're making your life much more difficult than it has to be .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor F: Right ? So if someone says the best t to uh go there is by taxi , let 's say . Now the planner comes out and says you wanna get there fast , take a taxi . OK . And the language end doesn't know that . OK , there 's all sorts of dialogues that won't make any sense which would be just fine .
PhD A: hmm
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor F: uh
PhD A: That would b but that {disfmarker} I think that {disfmarker} that uh point has been realized and it 's {disfmarker} it 's not really um been defined yet but there 's gonna be some kind of feedback and input from uh the action planner into all the analysis modules , telling them what to expect and what the current state of the discourse is .
Grad D: Mmm .
PhD A: Beyond what 's currently being implemented which is just word lists .
Professor F: Yeah , but this is not the st this is not just the state of the discourse .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Of {disfmarker} of special interest .
Professor F: This is actually the state of the plan . That 's why
PhD A: Yes , Yes , Mm - hmm yeah .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: OK so it {disfmarker} z and s uh , It 's great if people are already taking that into account . But One would have t have to see {disfmarker} see the details .
PhD A: The specifics aren't really there yet . Yes . So , there 's work to do there .
Professor F: Yeah . So anyway , Robert , that 's why I was thinking that
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: um I think you 're gonna need {disfmarker} We talked about this several times that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the input end is gonna need a fair amount of feedback from the planning end .
PhD A: hmm
Professor F: In {disfmarker} in one of these things which are {disfmarker} are much more continuous than the {disfmarker} just the dialogue over movies and stuff .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad D: Mmm .
PhD A: And even on {disfmarker} on a more basic level the {disfmarker} the action planner actually needs to be able to have um an expressive power that can deal with these structures . And not just um say um {disfmarker} um the dialogue um will consist of ten possible states and th these states really are fixed in {disfmarker} in a certain sense .
Professor F: Hmm ?
PhD A: You have to {disfmarker}
Professor F: Would there be any chance of getting the terminology changed so that the dialogue planner was called a " dialogue planner " ? Because there 's this other thing The o There 's this other thing in {disfmarker} in the tourist domain which is gonna be a route planner
PhD A: That 'd be nice .
Professor F: or {disfmarker} It 's really gonna be an action planner . And {comment} i it {disfmarker}
PhD A: It oughta be called a {disfmarker} a dialogue manager . cuz that 's what everybody else calls it .
Professor F: I would think ,
Grad D: Mmm .
Professor F: yeah .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor F: Huh ? So , s So what would happen if we sent a note saying " Gee we 've talked about this and couldn't we change this uh th the whole word ? " I have no idea how complicated these things are .
Grad B: Probably close to impossible .
PhD A: Depends on who you talk to how . We 'll see . I 'll go check , cause I completely agree . Yeah ,
Grad D: Mmm .
PhD A: and I think this is just for historical reasons within uh , the preparation phase of the project and not because somebody actually believes it ought to be action planner . So if there is resistance against changing it , that 's just because " Oh , We don't want to change things . " That {disfmarker} that not deep reason
Professor F: OK , anyway . I if {disfmarker} if that c in persists then we 're gonna need another term . for the thing that actually does the planning of the uh routes and whatever we are doing for the tourist .
Grad B: That 's external services .
Professor F: Yeah , but that 's not g eh tha That ha has all the wrong connotations . it 's {disfmarker} it sounds like it 's you know stand alone . It doesn't interact , it doesn't That 's why I 'm saying . I think you can't {disfmarker} it 's fine for looking up when T you know when the show 's on TV . You go to th but I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it 's really {disfmarker} really wrong headed for something that you {disfmarker} that has a lot of state , it 's gonna interact co in a complicated way with the uh understanding parts .
Grad B: Yeah . Yeah I think just the {disfmarker} the spatial planner and the route planner I showed you once the interac action between them among them in the deep map system
Professor F: Right .
Grad B: so {disfmarker} a printout of the communication between those two fills up I don't know how many pages
PhD A: Hmm
Grad B: and that 's just part of how do I get to one place . It 's really insane . and uh but um so this is um definitely a good point to get uh Michael into the discussion . Or to enter his discussion , actually .
PhD A: Yeah , Marcus .
Grad B: That 's the way around . Markus
PhD A: Wh - where 's ?
Grad B: Is he new in the {disfmarker} in the ?
PhD A: Yeah , he 's {disfmarker} he started um I think January .
Grad D: Yeah .
PhD A: And he 's gonna be responsible for the implementation of this action planner . Dialogue manager .
Grad B: Is he gonna continue with the old {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} thing ?
PhD A: No , no he 's completely gonna rewrite everything . In Java .
Grad B: OK .
PhD A: OK so that 's interesting .
Grad B: Yes I was just {disfmarker} that 's my next question
PhD A: hmm
Grad B: whether we 're {disfmarker} we 're gonna stick to Prolog or not .
PhD A: No . No , that 's gonna be phased out .
Professor F: Yeah .
Grad B: OK But I do think the {disfmarker} the function modeling concept has a certain {disfmarker} makes sense in a {disfmarker} in a certain light
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad B: because the action planner should not be {disfmarker} or the dialogue manager in that case should not um w have to worry about whether it 's interfacing with um something that does route planning in this way or that way
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: I I totally agree .
Grad B: huh ,
Professor F: Sure .
Grad B: it j
Professor F: Yeah I {disfmarker} I agree . There is {disfmarker} there 's a logic to dialogue which {disfmarker} which is {disfmarker} is separable . I Yeah .
Grad B: and it {disfmarker} cant {disfmarker} sort of formulate its what it wants in a {disfmarker} in a rather a abstract uh way , you know f " Find me a good route for this . "
Professor F: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: It doesn't really have to worry ab how route planner A or how route planner B actually wants it . So this is {disfmarker} seemed like a good idea . In the beginning .
Professor F: It 's tricky . It 's tricky because one could well imagine {disfmarker} I think it will turn out to be the case that uh , this thing we 're talking about , th the extended n uh knowledge modeler will fill in some parameters about what the person wants . One could well imagine that the next thing that 's trying to fill out the detailed uh , route planning , let 's say , will also have questions that it would like to ask the user . You could well imagine you get to a point where it 's got a {disfmarker} a choice to make and it just doesn't know something .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: And so y you would like it t also be able to uh formulate a query . And to run that back through uh . the dialogue manager and to the output module and back around .
Grad B: hmm
Professor F: And a I a a good design would {disfmarker} would allow that to happen .
Grad B: a lot of , yeah
Grad D: Mmm .
Professor F: If {disfmarker} if you know if {disfmarker} if you can't make it happen then you {disfmarker} you do your best .
PhD A: Yeah but that doesn't necessarily contradict um an architecture where there really is a pers a def well - defined interface . and {disfmarker} and
Professor F: I totally agree . But {disfmarker} but what it nee but th what the point is the in that case the dialogue manager is sort of event driven . So the dialogue manager may think it 's in a dialogue state of one sort ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: and this {disfmarker} one of these planning modules comes along and says " hey , right now we need to ask a question " . So that forces the dialogue manager to change state .
PhD A: Yes
Professor F: OK .
PhD A: Sure ,
Professor F: It could be y
PhD A: ye yeah I {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's the um concept that people have ,
Professor F: Yeah , yeah it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}
PhD A: yep .
Professor F: OK .
PhD A: And {disfmarker} and the {disfmarker} the underlying idea of course is that there is something like kernel modules with kernel functionality that you can plug uh certain applications like tourist information or um the home scenario with uh controlling a VCR and so on . And then extend it to an arbitrary number of applications eventually . So {disfmarker} wouldn't That 's an additional reason to have this well - defined interface and keep these things like uh tourist information external .
Professor F: Oh , yeah , yeah .
PhD A: And then call it external services .
Grad B: Hmm .
PhD A: But of course the {disfmarker} the more complex {disfmarker}
Grad B: Yeah , there is another philosophical issue that I think you know you can {disfmarker} evade
PhD A: yep .
Grad B: but , at at least it makes sense to me that sooner or later uh {disfmarker} a service is gonna come and describe itself to you . and that 's sort of what Srini is working on in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the DAML uh project where um you {disfmarker} you find a GIS about {disfmarker} that gives you information on Berkeley ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad B: and it 's {disfmarker} it 's gonna be there and tell you what it can do and how it wants to do things . and so you can actually interface to such a system without ever having met it before and the function modeler and a self - description of the um external service haggle it out
PhD A: Hmm .
Grad B: and you can use the same language core , understanding core to interface with planner - A , planner - B , planner - C and so forth .
PhD A: Hmm .
Grad D: Mmm .
Grad B: Which is , you know , uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} utopian {disfmarker} completely utopian at the moment , but slowly , you know , getting into the realm of the uh contingent .
PhD A: Hmm .
Grad B: But we are facing of course much more um realistic problems . And language input for example , is of course uh crucial you know also when you do the sort of deep understanding analysis that we envision . um Then of course , the uh um , you know what is it {disfmarker} poverty of the stimulus , yet the m uh the less we get of that the better . and um so we {disfmarker} we 're thinking , for example how much syntactic analysis actually happens already in the parser . and whether one could interface to that potentially
Grad D: Hmm . Yeah , are there currently is uh no syntactic analysis but in the next release there will be some .
Grad B: Hmm .
Grad D: unless
Professor F: How 's it {disfmarker}
Grad D: and it 's um uh you can access this
Professor F: S so uh y we {disfmarker} we looked at the e current pattern matching thing .
Grad D: Hmm .
Professor F: And as you say it 's just a surface pattern matcher . Uh , So what are {disfmarker} what are the plans roughly ?
Grad D: um it 's to {disfmarker} to integrate and syntactic analysis . and um add some more features like segmentation . So then an utter more than one utterance is {disfmarker} There um there 's often uh pause between it and a segmentation occurs . um
Professor F: So , the um {disfmarker} So the idea is to uh {disfmarker} have a pa y y a particular {disfmarker}
Grad D: yeah
Professor F: Do you have a particular parser in mind ? Is it uh {disfmarker} partic d I mean have you thought through {disfmarker} ? Is it an HPSG parser ? Is it a whatever ?
Grad D: No {disfmarker} no it 's {disfmarker} uh I think it 's it 's totally complicated for it 's just one {disfmarker} one person
Professor F: OK .
Grad D: and so I have to keep the {disfmarker}
Professor F: Oh , you have to do it . You have to do it ,
Grad D: Yeah ,
Professor F: yeah .
Grad D: ah and so {vocalsound} things must be simpler
Professor F: I see ,
Grad D: but uh , Miel syntactic analysis with um finite state transducers .
Professor F: so But the people at D F Yeah . People at DFKI have written a fair number of parsers . Other {disfmarker} you know , people over the years . uh have written various parsers at DFKI . None of them are suitable ? I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I d I 'm asking . I don't know .
Grad D: Yeah , uh the problem is th that it has to be very fast because um if you want to for more than one path anywhere
Professor F: OK .
Grad D: what 's in the latches from the speech recognizer
Professor F: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: so it 's speed is crucial . uh And they are not fast enough .
Professor F: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: And they also have to be very robust . cuz of um speech recognition errors and
Professor F: OK . So , um {disfmarker} So there was a chunk parser in Verbmobil , that was one of the uh branchers . You know they {disfmarker} d th I c There were these various uh , competing uh syntax modules . And I know one of them was a chunk parser and I don't remember {pause} who did that .
Grad B: A Alan ?
Grad D: I think it 's that might , at Tuebingen I thought .
Professor F: Yeah I d I don't remember .
Grad D: was {disfmarker} Do you know something about that ?
PhD A: Tubingen was at least involved in putting the chunks together
Grad D: In Tub - at {disfmarker}
PhD A: I {disfmarker} can't quite recall whether they actually produced the chunks in the first place .
Grad D: oh
Professor F: Uh . I see . Yeah , that 's right .
PhD A: Or wh
Grad D: Oh from {disfmarker} from Stuttgart ,
Professor F: There w That 's right . They w They had {disfmarker} There were {disfmarker} This was done with a two phase thing , where {comment} the chunk parser itself was pretty stupid
Grad D: yeah , also
Professor F: and then there was a kind of trying to fit them together that h used more context .
PhD A: Right . Yeah
Professor F: Right ?
PhD A: Well you s and {disfmarker} and especially you did some {disfmarker} some um , l um was a learning - based approach which learned from a big corpus of {disfmarker} of trees .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: Right .
PhD A: And yes the {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} the chunk parser was a finite - state machine that um Mark Light originally w worked on in {disfmarker} while he was in Tuebingen
Professor F: Right .
PhD A: and then somebody else in Tuebingen picked that up . So it was done in Tuebingen , yeah . Definitely .
Professor F: But is that the kind of thing y It sounds like the kind of thing that you were thinking of .
PhD A: Yeah I guess it 's similar .
Grad D: yeah . yeah that 's In this direction , yes
Professor F: What ?
Grad D: Yeah , it 's in {disfmarker} in this direction .
Grad B: The {disfmarker}
Professor F: Hmm .
Grad B: From Michael Strube , I 've heard very good stuff about the chunk parser that is done by FORWISS , uh , which is in embassy doing the parsing .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: So this is sort of {disfmarker} came as a surprise to me that you know , embassy s {comment} is featuring a nice parser but it 's {pause} what I hear . One could also look at that and see whether there is some synergy possible .
Grad D: Mm - hmm , yeah , it would be very interesting , Mm - hmm . Mmm , yeah .
Grad B: And they 're doing chunk parsing and it 's uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I can give you the names of the people who do it there . But um . Then there is of course more ways of parsing things .
Professor F: Of course . But {disfmarker} But uh given th the constraints , that you want it to be small and fast and so forth , my guess is you 're probably into some kind of chunk parsing . And uh I 'm not a big believer in this um statistical you know , cleaning up uh It {disfmarker} That seems to me kind of a last resort if uh you can't do it any other way . uh but I dunno .
Grad D: Hmm .
Professor F: It may {disfmarker} i i may be that 's what you guys finally decide do . Uh . And have you looked {disfmarker} uh just {disfmarker} again for context {disfmarker}
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: There is this {disfmarker} this one that they did at SRI some years ago {disfmarker} Fastus ?
Grad D: um
Professor F: a {disfmarker}
Grad D: yeah , I 've {disfmarker} I 've looked at it but {disfmarker} but it 's no {disfmarker} not much uh information available . I found ,
Professor F: ah !
Grad D: but it 's also finite - state transducers , I thought .
Professor F: It is . Yeah . I mean {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it was pretty ambitious .
Grad D: and
Professor F: And of course it was English oriented ,
Grad D: Yeah , and {disfmarker} and Purely finite - state transducers are not so good for German since there 's um
Professor F: um w Right .
Grad D: The word order is {disfmarker} is uh not fixed
Professor F: Yeah , I guess that 's the point is {disfmarker} is all the morphology and stuff . And English is all th all word order . And it makes a lot more sense .
Grad D: Yeah .
Professor F: And {disfmarker} e Yeah , OK . Good point . So in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in German you 've got uh most of this done with
Grad D: Mm - hmm . Also it 's uh {disfmarker} it 's um {disfmarker} Yes , uh the um choice between uh this processing and that processing and my template matcher .
Professor F: Right . Right .
Grad D:
Professor F: So what about Um Did y like Morfix ? a a e y you 've got stemmers ? Or is that something that {disfmarker}
Grad D: Um , yeah but it 's all in the {disfmarker} in the lexicon . So it 's {disfmarker}
Professor F: But did you have that ?
Grad D: Yeah th the information is available .
Professor F: OK . I see . So , but {disfmarker}
Grad D: So {disfmarker}
Professor F: So y you just connect to the lexicon
Grad D: Yeah
Professor F: and uh at least for German you have all {disfmarker} all of the {disfmarker} uh the stemming information .
Grad D: Yeah , we can , oh yeah . We have knowledge bases from {disfmarker} from Verbmobil system we can use
Professor F: Yep .
Grad D: and so .
Professor F: Right . But it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it doesn't look like i you 're using it . I didn't n see it being used in the current template uh parser . I {disfmarker} I didn't see any Uh {disfmarker} of course we l actually only looked at the English .
Grad D: It {disfmarker} um
Professor F: Did we look at the German ? I don't remember .
Grad D: Yeah , but {disfmarker} but it 's used for {disfmarker} for stem forms .
Professor F: So w wha
PhD A: n Well I think {disfmarker} I think there 's some misunderstanding here
Professor F: i
PhD A: it 's {disfmarker} Morphix is not used on - line .
Grad D: Oh , OK .
PhD A: s so the lexicon might be derived by Morphix
Grad D: What ?
PhD A: but What {disfmarker} what 's happening on - line is just um um a {disfmarker} a retrieval from the lexicon which would give all the stemming information
Professor F: Right .
Grad D: Hmm .
Professor F: Right .
PhD A: so it would be a full foreign lexicon .
Professor F: And that 's what you have .
PhD A: Yep .
Grad D: Yeah
Professor F: OK .
Grad B: We threw out all the forms .
Professor F: What {disfmarker} uh I didn't reme
Grad B: We threw out all the forms
Professor F: Huh ?
Grad B: because , you know , English , well {disfmarker}
Professor F: Oh OK , so it {disfmarker} yeah , s s I thought I 'd {disfmarker}
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: So in German then you actually do case matching and things like in the {disfmarker} in the pattern matcher or not ?
Grad D: um Not yet but it 's planned to do that .
Professor F: OK . Cuz I r I didn't reme I didn't think I saw it .
Grad D: Yeah
Professor F: Have we looked at the German ? Oh , I haven yeah that 's {disfmarker} getting it from the lexicon is just fine .
PhD A: Sure , right .
Grad D: Oh yes .
Professor F: Yeah , yeah , yeah . No problem with that . um Yeah and here 's the case where the English and the German might really be significantly different . In terms of if you 're trying to build some fast parser and so forth and {disfmarker} You really might wanna do it in a significantly different way . I don't know . So you 've {disfmarker} you guys have looked at this ? also ? in terms of You know , w if you 're doing this for English as well as German Um Do you think now that it would be this {disfmarker} doing it similarly ?
Grad D: um Yeah , it 's um I think it 's um yes , it 's {disfmarker} it 's um possible to {disfmarker} to do list processing . and Maybe this is um more adequate for English and in German um set processing is used .
Professor F: Set .
Grad D: Maybe yeah . Some extensions uh have to be made . For {disfmarker} for a English version
Professor F: Mmm . OK . Interesting . Not easy .
Grad B: Well there 's m I 'm sure there 's gonna be more discussion on that after your talk .
Grad D: Mm - hmm ,
Grad B: We 're just gonna foreshadow what we saw that
Grad D: yeah .
Professor F: Right . Right .
Grad B: and um
Professor F: Now actually , um Are you guys free at five ? Or {disfmarker} Do you have to go somewhere at five o ' clock tonight ? W in ten minutes ?
Grad D: Ah {disfmarker}
PhD A: uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I think we 're expect {disfmarker}
Grad D: mmm . No . Oder there was an {disfmarker} talk ?
PhD A: Yeah , there {disfmarker} there 's the um practice talk .
Grad D: uh Mmm , yeah .
Professor F: Great . So you 're going to that .
PhD A: Yeah , that {disfmarker} that 's what we were planning to do .
Professor F: That 's good , because that will uh tell you a fair amount about The form of semantic construction grammar that we 're using .
PhD A: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor F: so {disfmarker} So I th I think that probably as good an introduction as you 'll get .
Grad D: Ah .
Professor F: Uh to the form of {disfmarker} of uh {disfmarker} conceptual grammar that {disfmarker} that w we have in mind for this .
Grad D: Mmm , ah .
Professor F: It won't talk particularly about how that relates to what uh Robert was saying at the beginning . But let me give you a very short version of this . So we talked about the fact that There 're going to be a certain number of decisions That you want the knowledge modeler to make , that will be then fed to the function module , that does uh , route planning . It 's called the " route planner " or something .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: So there are these decisions . And then one half of this we talked about at little bit is how if you had the right information , if you knew something about what was said and about th the something about was the agent a tourist or a native or a business person or uh young or old , whatever . That information , and also about the Uh , what we 're calling " the entity " , Is it a castle , is it a bank ? Is it a s town square , is it a statue ? Whatever . So all that kind of information could be combined into decision networks and give you decisions . But the other half of the problem is How would you get that kind of information from the parsed input ? So , um So what you might try to do is just build more templates , saying uh we 're trying to build a templ you know build a template that w uh somehow would capture the fact that he wants to take a picture .
Grad D: Mmm .
Professor F: OK ? And {disfmarker} and we could {disfmarker} you could do this . And it 's a small enough domain that probably you , you know {disfmarker}
Grad D: Mmm .
Professor F: OK . You could do this . But uh from our point of view this is also a research project and there are a couple of people not here for various reasons who are doing doctoral dissertations on this ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: and the idea that we 're really after is a very deep semantics based on cognitive linguistics and the notion that there are a relatively small number of primitive conceptual schemas that characterize a lot of activity . So a typical one in this formulation is a container . So this is a static thing . And the notion is that all sorts of physical situations are characterized in terms of containers . Going in and out the portals and con
Grad D: Mmm .
Professor F: OK . But also , importantly for Lakoff and these guys is all sorts of metaphorical things are also characterized this way . You get in trouble and you know et cetera
Grad D: Mmm .
Professor F: and so {disfmarker} s So , what we 're really trying to do is to map from the discourse to the conceptual semantics level . And from there to the appropriate decisions .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: So another one of these primitive , what are called " image schemas " , is uh goal seeking . So this a notion of a source , path , goal , trajector , possibly obstacles .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: And the idea is this is another conceptual primitive .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: And that all sorts of things , particularly in the tourist domain , can be represented in terms of uh source , path and goal . So the idea would be could we build an analyser that would take an utterance and say " Aha ! th this utterance is talking about an attempt to reach a goal . The goal is this , the pers the , uh traveller is that , uh the sor w where we are at now is is this , they 've mentioned possible obstacles , et cetera . " So th the {disfmarker} and this is an {disfmarker} again attempt to get very wide coverage . So if you can do this , then the notion would be that across a very large range of domains , you could use this deep conceptual basis as the interface .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor F: And then , uh The processing of that , both on the input end , recognizing that certain words in a language talk about containers or goals , et cetera , and on the output end , given this kind of information , you can then uh make decisions about what actions to take . Provides , they claim , a very powerful , general notion of deep semantics . So that 's what we 're really doing .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: And Nancy is going to {disfmarker} Her talk is going to be not about using this in applications , but about modeling how children might learn this kind of uh deep semantic grammar .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . Yep , yep . And how do you envision um the {disfmarker} the um this deep semantic to be worked with . Would it be highly ambiguous if and then there would be another module that takes that um highly underspecified deep semantic construction and map it onto the current context to find out what the person really was talking about in that context . or {disfmarker} or a {disfmarker}
Professor F: Well that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's where the belief - net comes in . So th the idea is , let 's take this business about going to the Powder - Tower .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: So part of what you 'll get out of this will be the fact tha w if it works right , OK , that this is an agent that wants to go to this place and that 's their goal
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: and there will be additional situational information .
PhD A: Oh , OK .
Professor F: Uh , OK ,
PhD A: th
Professor F: part of it comes from the ontology . The tower is this kind of object .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . Yeah , OK .
Professor F: Part of it comes from the user model .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: And the idea of the belief - net is it combines the information from the dialogue which comes across in this general way ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: you know this is a {disfmarker} this is a goal seeking behavior , along with specific information from the ontology about the kinds of objects involved
PhD A: Yeah OK , Yeah , yep yep yep yep
Professor F: and about the situation about " Is it raining ? " I don't know . Whatever it is . And so that 's the belief - net that we 've laid out .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: And so th the coupling to the situation comes in this model from , at th at th at the belief - net , combining evidence from the dialogue with the ontology with the situation .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad D: Hmm .
Professor F: But Nancy isn't gonna talk about that ,
PhD A: Yeah , oh yeah , I see ,
Professor F: just about the um
PhD A: yeah yeah , really .
Grad B: First steps .
Professor F: Right . The {disfmarker} the construction grammar .
Grad B: And she 's gonna start in a minute .
Professor F: In a minute .
Grad D: Ah , OK .
Professor F: OK .
PhD G: Is it i in , then , your place , in five {disfmarker} five - A ?
PhD A: Alright . | |
doc_117 | Project Manager: Okay . Hello everyone . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hi .
User Interface: Hi .
Marketing: Hi .
Project Manager: Um how uh how we doing ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , good .
Project Manager: Uh first we going uh over the minutes of the last meeting , more or less .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um in the last meeting uh the marketing manager had presented uh her method of working , meaning gathering i suggestions from everyone to see how she best could market uh this this product at the {disfmarker} within the budget uh that was given . Uh in general {vocalsound} the idea is that it should be something that is not difficult to use . Um it's also an item that people lose a lot . So we should address that . And , of course , it should be something s s that is very simple to use . In addition to that to make it sell , of course , uh the marketing manager w wishes that it be very attractive ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: or like she says put some sizzle into it in one way or another so that the people are buying it now because , in particular with smaller items , that's a very important fact , 'cause um if they say , well , I go home and think about it , that won't work . Um also mentioned was it should be uh {disfmarker} it should have a very short learning curve . And maybe it could be sold by using a slogan .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Our technical manager has then said that she feels it should have a chip
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: that has infra-red bits and it has an interface controls w interface that controls the chip . Therefore , messages uh will be controlled in the same manner . There should be extra features like lid buttons , maybe a beep . If too many buttons are pressed , mm uh uh child lock um and uh maybe a display clock so that people could um {disfmarker} you could see the time , you know , what show they want to watch . Also mentioned was uh maybe different shapes . So the components of the thing should be button , bulbs , infra infra-red bulbs , battery , chips , wires , and maybe some kind of a holder uh for the for the uh item . Francino who is our um
User Interface: Interface designer .
Project Manager: interface designer um uh has mentioned that the {disfmarker} that it , of course , should have an on-off button , and also has mentioned an interesting feature that it should have maybe a channel lock . Particularly with maybe small children that they couldn't uh watch a channel that is undesirable . It should be compact . Her personal favourite was it should be T-shaped . And maybe have an anar alarm-clock . And the material should possibly be not of non-allergic nature . Uh the different systems uh that exist are infra-red or radio-waves . Uh maybe it should have uh electri electrici electricity saving feature .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And {vocalsound} even possibly a timer to {disfmarker} so that people can program {vocalsound} their favourite uh uh program on th right from the remote .
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: Uh are we all in agreement that that's about what we discussed last time ? Okay .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , I think that pretty much is it . Yeah . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay , then we {disfmarker} I'm looking for three presentations . And uh I don't know whether the order matters much uh , I don't I don't think so , so whoever w wants {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay , I can start first .
Project Manager: Yeah , okay .
User Interface: Okay . Now my slide , please . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , your slides . Okay . Oh , come on , close already .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And that's number two , right ?
User Interface: Three .
Project Manager: Three .
User Interface: Participant three . Yes . Okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Now as an interface designer , I would give more emphasis on the interface , how the remote looks like so that it is sellable , it is attractive to customers . Next , please . Okay . Now the function of a remote is to send messages to the television . This messages could be uh switch on-off message or switch to next channel message or swapping the channels or switching onto a particular channel , like you can have the numbers one , two , three , four , up to nine .
Project Manager: Nine what ? Nine channel uh switches ?
User Interface: Pardon me ?
Project Manager: Nine channel switches ? Is {disfmarker} Yeah . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yes , nine numbers . And then you have swapping of uh button
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: by which {disfmarker} using which you can swap the channels if you don't want to see the third channel you can swap it to the fourth channel or vice versa . Then it should have a next button , and next button channel by which you can keep on uh v uh mm eh scrolling the channels one by one .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Going to the nex next .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Next slide , please .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Then you should have a button which should which ca which can be used for increasing or decreasing the volume .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Then , there should be a button which can give subtitles for a particular program which is going on a television . For example , if you are watching a French program and you would like to have a subtitles in English , then there should be a channel which can trigger this mechanism in the television so that the user can see uh the {gap} the subtitles on the screen .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Then there should d uh there should be some buttons which can control features like the colour , colour of the picture , the contrast , sharpness , brightness of the picture . Now there should be a memory switch . There should be a mute button . Suddenly if if if uh uh viewer he gets a telephone call , and if he want he doesn't want to switch off the uh T_V_ , but he he can reduce the sound , he can bring the volume down and he can watch {disfmarker} he can uh {disfmarker} while talking he can watch the T_V_ . Now the most important feature I would like to have in my remote would be the speech recognition feature . It's an integrated progra programmable sample sensor speaker unit . So a remote can be th can be uh designed which can have the voice recognisers , you can record your own voice
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: which can be recognised by as voice recogniser in the television , for example , if you want to see {disfmarker} we if you want to see the ninth channel if you say just say ninth channel , uh th now the the {disfmarker} uh yeah , the remote will {disfmarker} automatically it will switch to the ninth channel .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So the T_V_ will have some recogniser which will recognise the user's voice and accordingly it will change its functionalities .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So this is one of the very important feature a remote control can have . So this is one one of the interface which can be created .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: A very simple interface which has all the t uh uh important features .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Then , please , next slide .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Then , these are some of the remotes which are different in shape and colour , but they have many buttons .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So uh sometimes the user finds it very difficult to recognise which button is for what function and all that . So you can you can design an interface which is very simple , and which is user-friendly . Even a kid can use that .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So can you go on t t uh to the next slide . Yeah , so this is one of the interface or one of the remote which has this vi voice recogniser .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And this has multi-purpose use , it can be used for T_V_ , it can be used for cable-satellite , it can be used for V_C_R_ , D_V_D_s and audio . And this has in-built voice recogniser .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Can you go on to the next slide ? Yeah , now this is an interface for a chil uh for a remote uh uh which a child can use .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Uh this is user-friendly , it's very attractive and uh children can use it as well as they can play with it . And this comes with different colours , different shapes .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And this this uh child uh interface has minimum buttons
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and all the important uh buttons are there in this small , compact , attractive child interface . Next slide , please . Now this is a big over-sized remote which cannot be misplaced or it's impossible to misplace .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: You don't know me .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} {gap} this . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I could lose that in a minute . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So this is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No this is a very big , you cannot {vocalsound} misplace it anywhere .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} So this is a jumbo universal remote control and it's impossible to im misplace or lose . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: This i this is one such interface which can be created . {vocalsound} And the personal preference {vocalsound} uh would be a spe uh uh to incorporate speech recognisers uh which will respond to user's voice for a particular uh function .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Right .
User Interface: Thank you , that's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay , thank you very much . Uh any comments on uh her presentation ?
Marketing: Well , um looks like we still have quite a choice of things out there .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Um what uh {vocalsound} I'm {disfmarker} No suggestion's bad .
User Interface: Mm yes .
Marketing: But uh we're gonna have to narrow it down a little more . I don't think that we can get uh {disfmarker} The T-shape is good , the child one is good , the too big to misplace , I think it's just funny .
User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um I don't think that's gonna be our impulse purchase at the checkout counter .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , I I th I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay . {gap} {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's it's gonna be a little bit too unwieldy .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No , I think the these are her presentations , but uh as far as the decision making we getting to that after after
Marketing: Yeah mm . Mm-hmm . Have to come back to that later . Okay .
User Interface: We can .
Project Manager: but if {disfmarker} I just wanted to know whether anybody had any any anything to add to her presentation .
Marketing: No , I think her presentation was good , and she really explored all the options . Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm right . Mm-hmm . Ho who wants to go next um ? Mm-hmm . Okay ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , maybe .
Project Manager: and you {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Participant two .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh okay .
Industrial Designer: Uh the next one , sorry .
Project Manager: Oops .
Industrial Designer: It's it was the old one .
Project Manager: The components design .
Industrial Designer: Components .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay .
Industrial Designer: Um this time I'm I'm going to um concentrate more on the components and the technical side of the remote controller design .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Uh , can you go on to the next slide , please .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: I have just brief {vocalsound} uh down few uh components which we require for the remote control uh construction .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh the first one is case to keep all the components like integrated circuit , battery , etcetera , etcetera , it's like {disfmarker} Uh it can be a plastic one , hard plastic , so that it can be strong , even if you just uh uh , {vocalsound} you know , if you {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if it falls down , then it doesn't {vocalsound} break . So it should be strong .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And uh uh there are no harmful materials used in that . And it should be recyclable .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Uh and uh {vocalsound} ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Good point .
Industrial Designer: yeah , and also uh using of colouring compon components like uh if we want to have different colours , blue , red , green , so uh uh we have to use uh some colouring compone compone components . And uh the second important thing is uh uh uh integrated circuit .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh which uh we can use a highly sophisticated one because it's like the it's like the heart of the remote controller . If it is not efficient then everything wi is going to be uh like um the lef ess less efficient so it {disfmarker} you should {disfmarker} we should have a highly sophisticated one . And it should be resistant to high as well as uh low temperatures . Suppose if it is thirty-eight degrees outside forty degrees outside , it should it should uh {vocalsound} be able to re uh resist the uh temperature uh uh highs and uh high temperatures and low temperatures . And uh it should be with uh {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} equipped with timer and alarm facility . And the uh other component we should {disfmarker} uh we have in the remote controller is a resistor uh which is like uh uh i it is very very much important for the electricity uh flow through {vocalsound} through through the uh remote controller and uh also a capacitor which is a b which is a m I think it's it's like a battery , capacitor . Can you go on to the next slide , please ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Uh a diode , a transistor , a resonator , these are all this uh technical uh electri electronic compons uh components which are {disfmarker} which we have to use in a remote controller . A battery uh , I would like to suggest one thing uh if we {disfmarker} uh if we will be able to make a res rechargeable battery then we sh we need not go for a high performance battery , even if it is a low performance battery it ca it can't l it can't charge much .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: It it it's not a high voltage battery . Then also we can {disfmarker} If it is a rechargeable one , then uh people can use it for a long time , so in that way we can cut cut the cost , but w uh uh that we have to make the battery as rechargeable one . And we we have a circuit board uh in a remote controller . Can you go to the next slide , please . And how it works , how the remote controller works .
Project Manager: Go away .
Industrial Designer: Thank you . Uh when you press a button , when you do that , you complete a specific connection that means when you when you press a button there will be a s a small circuit underneath the button , and it will send some signals through the wires ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and then uh the chip will send start connection and knows that which button is pressed . Suppose you have pressed channel one button , number one you have pressed , then the uh chip will know that the number one button was pressed .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It pros produces a mors morse code line signal specific to that button . Every button , every individual button , has its own morse code . Suppose uh the uh user has pressed butto button one , then it will have a spe the circuit will generate a specific morse code to b {vocalsound} that that button , and the transistor will amplify the signal and send then to the L_E_D_ which translates the signal into infrared light . Like {vocalsound} you have got a signal by pressing a button . That's a d a morse code has been generated by the integrated circuit . Now , that signal , that morse code , has to be amplified by the transistor . That is the use of transist transistor we {disfmarker} which we use in the remote controller . It will amplify the signal and it will send it to the L_E_D_ and which translates the signal into an infra infrared bits . The sensor on the T_V_ can see the infrared light , and seeing the signal seeing the signal re it reacts appropriately , that when it sees the amplified mo morse code signal , then it will uh it will uh know which uh what what action it has to uh do . Then it will do the appropriate action . So uh this is how the remote controller works .
User Interface: It works .
Industrial Designer: Can you go to the next slide , please . Yeah , I have few pictures . When you look at the uh um remote controller uh it's it's {vocalsound} it {disfmarker} this is a normal remote controller . And {gap} to the next slide , please .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And where we had a a few buttons and all . And uh if you open the remote controller you have this circui circuit board and few electronic components ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: like you can see a chip there which is having eighteen pins ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and also a capac uh a capacitor , three resistors and also a resonator uh um mm {disfmarker} yeah , and di and a diode transistor .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: The electronic components {disfmarker} uh all of the electronic components have all those uh things like a chip and d {vocalsound} diode transistors an Yeah , di um can y uh you can see the T_A_ double one eight three five labelled uh chip um .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm yes .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Uh you can also see the uh uh the green {disfmarker} two green things are uh these are {disfmarker} they are {disfmarker} they are resistors ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and uh just beside that you can see a transistor , and a uh uh cylinder shape , uh that one is a capacitor . Uh and also there are uh {vocalsound} um resistors {disfmarker} uh sorry , ther there is a diode .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Can you go {disfmarker} go on to the next slide .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So uh this is the circuit board . The green one is a circuit board . Actually , uh building a circuit bo board is pretty pretty uh easy and also it's a it's a l l inexpensive . Uh it's it costs less than what you print on a paper , because uh {vocalsound} uh when you {disfmarker} when you are building uh some circuits {disfmarker} some um uh circuits and also wires , it's it's better to go for printing , because uh you can build these kind of k circuit boards on a on a bulk and it's just printing , nothing like uh , you know , you don't need to use wires and all .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: It's not exactly wires we are using . It's just printing something on a board .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Tha tho those prints will acti act as wires and ci uh circuits . So th that green uh thing is a circuit board , and also you can see uh there are b s like uh um access for buttons , like when you press a button , the circuit under the button will be activated uh th it will it will he get some signals from it and it will uh it will ch its ch se send a signal {disfmarker} signals to the , yeah , um integrated circuit .
User Interface: Transmit .
Industrial Designer: Can you go to the next slide , please . Uh so this is {disfmarker} these are the circuits un underneath the buttons . Uh can you see the black uh , round marks ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: They they are the circuits .
Marketing: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Next , please . And um like uh we have uh designed uh before we have seen some uh few things like {vocalsound} instead off buttons we have some scrolls . Uh b but a b a push-button requires a simple chip underneath it , but whereas a scroll wheel requires normally a regular chip which is a higher price range . Like for s scrolls we have to go for a sophisticated and and k uh {vocalsound} uh uh full {disfmarker} a complete chip .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Uh and a as energy source we offer a basic battery , a more ingenious uh hard dynamo , um a kinetic provision of energy , more than what is that you shake casually to provide energy . So that also we can have in a battery , uh or we can use solar sells . Uh .
Marketing: Hmm , that's interesting .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Uh yeah uh the product can be de delivered into different cases . Uh usually , the cases and card flat {vocalsound} that w we see usually uh d uh a normal remote controller .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Um .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: And you have more pictures . Uh we have five minutes to the end of the meeting .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , maybe d uh I have just one more slide , I think . Um . Like we can have a ma material such as plastic , rubber , wood , titanium , but titanium we can't use . Um and also for electronics we can use a simple and regular um re {vocalsound} or an advanced chip on the print , um also infra it includes the infrared se sender . Um yeah the uh {disfmarker} for the movie just to j develop uh samples and so spe sample speaker . An Yeah , that's it . It's all for me now ,
Project Manager: Okay , well thank you .
Industrial Designer: thank you .
Project Manager: Any particular comments by anybody ?
Marketing: Uh yeah , on the scroll and the push-button , um ca you can achieve scrolling by repeatedly pushing a button ?
Industrial Designer: No , no , no , th the the the scrolling wheels are different , like you can go for a sw switches like buttons or scrolls , uh {vocalsound} which which we used to do before ten ten years before , I think .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Now , nobody uses that because you need you need a a k sophisticated chip and all .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So I think it's better we go for uh um ordinary buttons .
Marketing: Um . We'll just go for push buttons
Industrial Designer: Yeah uh yeah , push-buttons . Yeah .
User Interface: Push-buttons .
Marketing: for {disfmarker} in the interest of cost .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: We don't have a lot of time left and we will still have to make a decision , and the marketing expert has to present her her thing .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay . Go right to my first {disfmarker} my next slide .
Project Manager: Uh okay .
Marketing: Um alright , my method is uh {disfmarker} I'm interested in what the competition is doing , and wanna see how we can make ourselves different from the competition , so I've really been looking at the press and the ads that are out there for other remote controllers . I s I {vocalsound} spend a lot of time on the internet um surfing around doing the same thing . And then when I'm out um in people's houses or at meetings or anything like that , I try to notice what kind of remote controls people have , and if it's convenient in the conversation I ask about it . And I would encourage you all to do the same . Um and my findings from this is that , you know , small is beautiful . Um people like something that really fits in their hand .
User Interface: 'Kay .
Marketing: Simple is beautiful . They don't want to have to squint at small print um , they want buttons whose functions are obvious , and they want um as few buttons as possible , and they don't {vocalsound} care for the mode thing . They want each button to do something . And eye-catching is important . It's gotta look cute , it's gotta look appealing . Go ahead , I'm trying to finish fast for you . Um {vocalsound} and our preference is , as far as I'm concerned , are we got to get to the market before the competition . Ours has to be {disfmarker} look really great and it has to come out before the others , so that we have a leg up on time to sell it and push it before other people get out their Christmas item . And we should develop one or two features we can really dwell on in our ad campaign . If we try to tell people it has too many great features , um the consumer just gets confused and we don't get anywhere . So we've gotta narrow our selection down to {vocalsound} li {vocalsound} two things , I think , that we gonna say are really great about our our our new product . And I've been looking around um at what designs {disfmarker} every year different things are popular . And in my research this year I found out that fruit and vegetable shapes are really popular . And people are tired of hard plastic and hard metal . They are more back into soft feel , spongy feeling things , things with maybe a little cloth on them . So those are things maybe we wanna look at as far as saleability of the item .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh that concludes the presentation of everyone . And what we really have to decide in this meeting is um the concept of the remote .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And uh so what do we think on the concept
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: of the remote ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: You wanna try to come back to yours , and limit yours a bit ?
Project Manager: Y {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh yes , I would like to include this feature which is called as voice recogniser .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So speech recognition is most important as far as you're concerned ?
User Interface: This could be uh one feature which could be sellable .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but w
Marketing: Yeah h that could that could that could be our star feature .
Project Manager: I think that's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: That that {gap} be really good , yeah , I agree with that .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but but I what I'm uh very very much doubtful how {vocalsound} how uh far it will work , because a speech recogniser like i it it has its own uh uh problems , issues .
Marketing: Distance problem ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's not distance problem it it's recognising a person's voice ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: like maybe different people will be having different voices , so it like it's uh {disfmarker} everything so i
Marketing: Uh .
Project Manager: Well , you you teach {disfmarker} You have to teach uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So to get a good recogni recognising system , it's a costly thing , I think .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No , it's it's , uh yeah , it it's like your recording of uh all uh um a question already , and then you're expecting an answer from th For example , you have a T_V_ system , I'm the user and my family members are the user ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I will already record uh a question like , uh good morning ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: like around eight o'clock I want to see the news in the television .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So I'll say just good morning and the T_V_ will switch on . It will recognise my voice and will switch on .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , before we get too far off here um , the components of the concept is the energy . What kind of energy do we foresee ? Battery .
Marketing: I think I think battery ,
Project Manager: Battery .
User Interface: Battery .
Marketing: and I think we all agreed on that .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: That that's that's gonna be most cost-effective and the best thing .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay then {vocalsound} chip on print .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: And the case . And I think we all agree on the case , we wanna have something uh maybe bright , colourful .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Bright , colourful , trendy trendy design , and strong .
User Interface: And compact .
Industrial Designer: And also strong .
User Interface: Trendy design and compact .
Industrial Designer: Trendy , yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Trendy design , compact and strong .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: User interface concept , uh {vocalsound} interface type , supplements
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That will be your area I think , right , Jana .
Industrial Designer: Uh . Um like the switches , like we use buttons for user interface .
User Interface: Push-buttons .
Project Manager: Put uh k I guess uh for {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Push-buttons .
Project Manager: yeah . And {vocalsound} Not sure what they mean by supplements .
User Interface: And {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Supplements like different types of features buttons , like can have a f mute button or a swapping button .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well , I think that {disfmarker} Yeah ,
Project Manager: Oh , like {disfmarker}
Marketing: or {vocalsound} or like her speech recognition would also be a supplement .
Project Manager: Oh . A what ?
Marketing: Her speech recognition feature would be a supplement .
Project Manager: Right , right , right , mm-hmm .
User Interface: Recogniser . Yes .
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah .
Marketing: Okay , so why don't we put down speech recognition if possible pending some more research from our industrial engineer on how expensive that is .
Industrial Designer: Hmm . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Right .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . Uh our next meeting will be in thirty minutes , and the uh I_D_ is to {disfmarker} this is the individual actions to be taken until then , to have the look and feel design , and uh the U_I_D_ is supposed to {vocalsound} uh come up with the user interface design ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and the marketing expert with the product evaluation .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: In this phase , the two of you , Jana and Francine , have to work together on a prototype using modelling clay , it says here .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You will receive specific {vocalsound} instructions {vocalsound} will be sent to you by your coaches .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Um if you have any questions , you know , you you can always uh contact me um or uh or your coach , I suppose . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Wherever they're hiding ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} so um I think we conclude the meeting here and we come back in uh uh thirty minutes , according to our timetable here .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Thank you very much .
User Interface: Thank you . | |
doc_118 | Project Manager: Hello , uh this meeting we are it's fo should be focused on the conceptual design of the remote control .
Marketing: Hello .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Hello .
Project Manager: Um the goal of this meeting is to reach a decision at the end on the concept and I think the last time we talked about an a lot and we had a rough idea of what is going to be , but uh in th at the end of this meeting we have to to reach a decision . So , uh we will have again three presentation , from all of you , and uh I hope it will be fast because I would like to have time to for long discussion and and decisions . So , who wants to start ? Okay .
User Interface: I s
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: No , no , you you can start .
Project Manager: So start , uh
Marketing: Okay , I'll start . Can you open my presentation ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: please .
Project Manager: Uh . {gap}
Marketing: I'm number four .
Project Manager: This one ?
Marketing: Trend . Yep . Can you pass the mouse , please . {vocalsound} Oh okay , that's fine .
Project Manager: Turn .
Marketing: Okay . Um so basically I just want to presented to you {disfmarker} present to you some recent results we've had from um looking at uh um some remote control market research and some fashion trends around the world . Um the fashion trends we got from talking to our our contacts in the fashion industry based in Paris and Milan . {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} so f from our market research basically we've come to the conclusion that a fancy look and feel , um as opposed to a functional look and feel , is our number one priority . Um fancy is is is is the , you know , highest priority .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: Secondly um that our remote control needs to be techn technologically innovative . Um so this is t number two priority but it's two times less important as the fancy criteria . Um and third thirdly the easiness of use is is the um is is important as well , but again two times less important as the technologically innovativeness of the remote control . {vocalsound} From our f fashion people in Paris and Milan , um we've discovered that this year um fruit the fruit and vegetable motif will be the most important thing in in clothes , shoes and furniture . So , {vocalsound} I'm pretty confident that our remote control fits into the furniture category . And also um the feel of material this year um is expected to be spongy .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Um so hopefully our remote control reflects that s in some way .
Industrial Designer: What does it mean , spongy ?
Marketing: Uh sort of um squishy .
Industrial Designer: Like soft , or something ?
Marketing: Um . Yeah soft ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: like a uh like a sponge .
Project Manager: Like a sponge . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I don't know . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay . I will see .
Marketing: Um so in conclusion , we need a our remote control needs to be something that's really fancy , um has lots of technolog tech technology in it . {vocalsound} Um somehow would be good to have it related to fruit and vegetables with a spongy feel .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And that it's easy to use and from our last meeting our you know Fabian told us that w you know one of the requirements is that we have to reflect the look and feel of our {disfmarker} of th the Real Reaction company . Um .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , uh yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's it .
Project Manager: Easy to use , is it uh a as much as important than technology or fancy thing . It's less important , right ?
Marketing: Less important .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah .
Marketing: So um fanciness first and then two ti you know , half as important as that is technology technology ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: and half important as technology is easy to use . So .
Project Manager: {gap} So , Hamed , can you {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah . The second one . Could you please show the presentation number three .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: I think the biggest struggle will be the easy to use feature .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um . Number ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We'll see .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Three .
User Interface: Three .
Project Manager: This one ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes . {gap} Just Could you please check if it is the first one or the second . Uh , n n no , it's the first one . The second one .
Project Manager: So it's not this one .
User Interface: Uh yeah . Okay . {gap} Okay . So I am going to talk about {disfmarker} a little bit about how this remote control should be appear to be more easy to use . I think uh I think the feature easy to use is more important than being fancy , but okay , we can discuss about it uh later . Um {vocalsound} generally , generally uh this remote control uh uh should be should be something , in my opinion , uh the first feature is just to be easy to use . So , the more frequent buttons should be larger , they should be placed in a good position uh uh inside the remote control . And uh s uh I can conclude like this , that we shouldn't need to learn how to use it . It should be {disfmarker} we shouldn't need to es open a a t book and uh start reading and uh learning how to use this uh this uh remote control . {vocalsound} Okay . So what I found out that uh as I said uh I think it's better to put uh more frequent uh uh uh ke uh buttons which are used more in the middle of the remote control , and they should be bigger in size . Uh the shape of remote control should be in a way which can {disfmarker} which should be taken easily in hand . It should not be completely like uh a cube . It should be it should have round edge , so uh then it's easier .
Industrial Designer: Exactly .
User Interface: And maybe uh just like some toys , some joystick which is easier to take inside the hand . And uh also f uh uh m because because customers doesn't like to buy lots of battery , it should not uh consume lots of energy . Okay . And my personal p uh preference is uh , as I said , uh just putting this buttons in a special places and covered some buttons which are not used uh that much like settings button , like mobile phone . Usually some mobile phone cover the dialling number part , so we can cover these buttons which are not used or uh number buttons for the for the for the can channels , and just put uh volume change or s ch can uh channel change buttons uh uh in the remote control . And if the user needed to do some more complex task uh he he can open the cover and then change settings or something like this . Uh . And also uh I think if we put some some some some some buttons inside of the remote control it can be used easier . Not on remote control . I dunno if I can explain well . But uh just inside . For example , a sliding or rolling uh uh d uh stuff , if we put it inside then we can easily manipulate with uh thumb . So it can be another uh preference . And uh I dunno but uh I think usage of a speech recogn uh r recogniser can be good . I know that it consumes lots of energy , but if we do it in some way that it asleeps when there is no sound and when it detects some sound it may consume less energy . And I think it's good because it's something new and usually young people like something new . So it may not be very useful but because it's new , people may buy it . Uh I personally think there should be a big difference between uh between something . Otherwise they prefer to buy something which is coming from a famous company , or . Okay . That's mine .
Project Manager: Okay . {gap}
Industrial Designer: Uh okay , so good news from me uh uh for me from Hamed , but bad news from Bob obviously , because spongy design , I don't like it as {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay , so could you please , Fabien , open it .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'm person two . And which one , uh probably the first one . I'm not sure but check the first one . I {disfmarker} Most of the things I have to write myself on the board , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: This one , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's it . Just {disfmarker} It's only this slide ? Yeah . This this is just uh one thing I wanted to mention and show you that I just uh I just found this , that our company uh developed a s a seven f seven fingers or I'll just {disfmarker}
Marketing: Inch .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , seven seven inch T_ {disfmarker} T_F_T_ screen , which is good news for us , since we wanted to include a display there . Uh so I I probably draw it down raw scheme .
Project Manager: Oh , {gap} .
Industrial Designer: This is this is the stuff that I can use to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oops .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so the {disfmarker} this will be like the overall scheme or overall requirements from the engineering point of view . Uh first thing is uh this will be the overall shape , no uh I'm not speaking about the real shape of the device , but the shape of the inside of the device . So there will be some circuit uh for the power . So , say power circuit here . Uh the main energy will be taken from batteries that we can uh uh {disfmarker} And if we decide to use the speech recognition stuff there , we must use additional source of energy , which I found the best is to use the solar cells which can which can uh supply everything . I was computing all the all the things related to the speech recognition , and it's okay to use just uh two batteries and solar cells , so . So no problem . There can be also solar cell . Uh the main board with all the circuits will take at least seven to seven centimetres , so this is my like hard requirement for the guys from the design .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So at least seven to seven . It depends where you put your screen , because the screen is uh seven inch , so it depends on you where where you put it .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It doesn't matter . Um it's just one cord from from the main board to the screen which can be elsewhere . So this will be T_F_T_ . And on the main board we have the um interface to the microphone , which is somewhere , say here . Interface to the microphone . Then the graphical card uh for the T_F_T_ and the third unit is the I_R_ . The good news is that we can uh we decided to use the infra-red unit because our company has also developed the chip for communication by the infra-red , including all the stuff inside , so it will be very cheap for us . So infra-red here . So the {disfmarker} once again the overall requirements , seven to seven centimetres for the board , which has to be {disfmarker} which can be spongy but has to be this size , and the T_F_T_ which is seven inches . Um I have to check what I wanted to {disfmarker} Uh from my point of view I don't care about the about the material used for the overall des uh ov all the device .
Project Manager: Can you fit any uh for example a T_F_T_ or any electronic device in a spongy thing , or is there any problem for that ? For example , put electronic card on a spongy thing , I can I can imagine it could be a problem .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} A all these things in in uh in this box are okay to put in in any shape , basically .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: But we have to take care of the T_F_T_ . Well , sponginess . Maybe it a good feature , since it takes {disfmarker} if it's around the T_F_T_ then it's good , because it's just keeps it safe ,
Project Manager: Okay . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I dunno .
User Interface: Well maybe it can have two shells , a hard shell inside and a spongy shell outside .
Marketing: So
Project Manager: Okay . Maybe put electronic in a box and a spongy thing around . {gap} maybe after .
Industrial Designer: Well , it's maybe related to the U_I_ .
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Ca Can I ask a question . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: A Yeah , that's all from me .
Marketing: This seven inch T_F_T_ screen ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah ?
Marketing: how big is it in reality ?
Industrial Designer: Well , seven to seven inches .
Marketing: So like that .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's quite big .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh uh have we decided that we're gonna use this T_F_T_ screen ?
Project Manager: No , I don't think it's seven by seven ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it's seven {disfmarker} the diagonal is seven .
Industrial Designer: To be honest , I was {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Usually when they say seven inch I think it's the diagonal .
User Interface: Yeah yes {gap} .
Marketing: But I mean even even that is like this big .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound} I dunno I dun I dun One each {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: . But , yeah , {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , honestly speaking I was thinking that it was seven centimetres initially ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but it's seven inches . But I I think we can we can cut it .
Marketing: You can cut the T_F_T_ screen . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Let's go . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , no no problem ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: because because because then the size of the graphic card will be one fourth .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So let's cut the T_F_T_ .
Industrial Designer: So {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but no problem to to me to cut the screen .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Okay , so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So so for the same price we have four screens now {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: These technical engineers , huh .
Marketing: So , what's the size of the device ?
Industrial Designer: Ah well this is like this is almost nothing . Seven to seven to at least well some three millimetres or something .
Marketing: Even from my perspective seven t seven centimetres by seven centimetres is still {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but we wanted the big buttons and stuff like that , you know .
Marketing: Is it {disfmarker} Can you hold that , or ?
Industrial Designer: Because if it's t too small we can we can lose it , at home , you know .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} What user wants . He wants a small remote control , or ? Uh uh with big buttons .
User Interface: Uh .
Industrial Designer: I thought that it it should fit in the hand or something .
Marketing: Yeah , a small c control that they can hold in hand .
Project Manager: It's difficult .
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} A sm
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But is something that's seven centimetres square e easy to hold ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: W I I think so . I if the roller buttons are on the side you don't have to catch it like that , but just like this , and you know follow follow {disfmarker} Well , that's that's no task for me , but well seven to seven at least yeah ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So maybe you can finish your presentation ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and afterwards we will discuss about all this .
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} Oh , okay .
User Interface: Maybe this {gap} .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay thanks {gap} .
Project Manager: That's it . Okay . So . {vocalsound} {gap} No . Uh , so I think we have a lot {disfmarker} We have to take decision today , so I think we have to do some work to finalise our idea and take decisions . Uh first I think energy it's a key problem because uh it depend what can we have as feature if we use only batteries , for example , or something like that . Because can we have L_C_D_ and speech recognition with battery , and it's also r related to the size of the of the devi of the device ?
Industrial Designer: Not {disfmarker} J uh just a point to the energy th things . If we use the batteries , and the additional so solar cell , then it's okay for L_ uh speech recognition and L_C_D_ ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: so no problem in energy , I think .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Okay .
Industrial Designer: But we have to use the solar cell .
User Interface: So but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Otherwise not .
Project Manager: but using how many batteries , for example ? Are are what Maybe what is the size of the battery {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah I was thinking just common A_A_ cells .
Project Manager: Okay . Uh one two {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So like three to five centimetres ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: I dunno exactly , but .
Marketing: So if we use s solar cells , um where is the sun if someone's watching T_V_ inside ?
Industrial Designer: S Uh d doesn't need to be sun . It it's just the daylight , you know .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: The television lights . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah well I I suppose that I suppose that uh that this remote control won't be in the in the room like this , where there is light only when when there are people , but .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: At least when there is T_V_ you can get light from the T_V_ .
Industrial Designer: Yeah from the T_ {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I don't think it's enough , uh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I dunno .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay . Mm .
Industrial Designer: Ah it's a it's a compromise , no ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: At least it's new and maybe technology New technology .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's why I wanted to to include the speech recognition , because you wanted all the new things .
Marketing: It's it's quite innovative , yes .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: Um .
Marketing: And if you watch T_V_ outside it's {vocalsound} very useful . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So I think before talking about the other thing , it's important thing it's the case .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh what what are gonna be the size , because its weight drives the other {disfmarker} what we are going to use as features and so on . For example for the for the L_C_D_ , if we choose to have a small device , we cannot use this um a such a a a screen .
Industrial Designer: Uh the s the screen is okay , but the board , uh that's the problem . Well what what would you guess as a shape ? Or what what would be the shape ?
User Interface: Mm . I think I think their being uh large or small is not important . The only important thing is to be able to take it in uh inside hand easily . So let's say an average size , okay ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: and it should not be very heavy also . And I prefer to {disfmarker} is it shouldn't have a uniform shape , so in the middle it should be a little bit thinner , maybe maybe . So we c it's like like some joysticks . You can take uh some some joystick you can take inside hand easier because it's it's designed for your f uh taking into account your finger shape and your palm shape . So the general shape should be like this . I think uh seven centimetre by seven centimetre is a little bit large . So uh seven {disfmarker} not seven but let's say five by ten it's I think it's {disfmarker} that's my opinion . It's easier .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Which is the same area .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Could you re could you redesign your board ?
Industrial Designer: Five to ten . Well that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh , five five centimetres by ten centimetres .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , right .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I think it's feasib Well one um um {disfmarker} How could we do it ? We could put the board next to , well , under the L_C_D_ and for example make the L_C_D_ be totally unrelated to the thing that you hold in your hand .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Like holding something , and the L_C_D_ to be just on top of it , you know somehow . Well {disfmarker} But maybe let's stick to the s spongy thing , like one unit .
Project Manager: Oh . I've I s I think the easiest thing would be to to have a smaller L_C_D_ , if it's possible .
Industrial Designer: Well fi five to ten it would be feasible .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so five to ten , I I think it's it's feasible .
Project Manager: Okay . So we are agree with a small
Industrial Designer: I'll make it .
User Interface: {gap} Or uh or I don't know
Project Manager: L_C_D_ . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Fo Five by ten .
User Interface: but I don't want to now invent something new , because we didn't discuss about it . So using some L_C_D_s we can touch , so we can remove uh keys and just uh having uh , I dunno the name , L_C_D_ responding to fingers .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Touching the screen . Something like
Project Manager: Tactile or something , yeah .
User Interface: {disfmarker} Mm like tactile .
Marketing: Mm , touch screen .
Project Manager: Touch screen , yeah .
User Interface: So {disfmarker} But for now if we don't want to use such kind of screens I I think we using a a smaller screen is better ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: because {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The problem is we have a limit in a month of time , so we cannot do something very new .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So let's go for a small L_C_D_ .
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay , so Yeah , so so just just give me the the the five by ten numbers that you find the best and send it me
User Interface: A smaller s
Project Manager: Yeah okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: So , five by s ten .
Industrial Designer: and I will work it out .
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: Um so what about , so the case we talked about . Um something easy to use , you said something easy to use but how does that fit in a fashion way , like with fruit and vegetable , and about the colour and logo of the of the company and so on , now , can we do that ? My first idea is because our colour is more yellow , and the {disfmarker} it should be easy to take in a hand , I thought about banana , or something like that , which is fruits , and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Seven to ten banana .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} A big banana . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay . Rather mango or something or .
Project Manager: Um . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well it's it's definitely the obvious choice , with the colour of our company .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: I mean what other what other fruit and vegetables {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But it's just an idea . I dunno what you think about , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Do you know of any any other fruit and vegetables that are yellow ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I dunno if it can fit with the technology . You are the specialists of that .
Industrial Designer: You mean banana .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well , but {disfmarker} If it's {gap} {vocalsound} {disfmarker} If it {disfmarker} If the banana is big enough .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Then , yes . {vocalsound} But if you want to look at the screen {gap} , no . Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , and
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I think this {gap} is not good . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The screen has to be {vocalsound} square ? Or it can be like a a shape , quite , uh with curves .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well , it can be whatever you want .
Project Manager: It could . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But if it's square then we get four screens out of one by cutting just . But if you want some shape then we can only get like two screens out of seven to seven inches , so .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: It's like more more expensive to have shape like that . But I don't care . You know , if we fit this requirement .
Marketing: Well {disfmarker} I'd like a shaped screen . I think that's more important than saving a bit of money on on the T_F_T_ screen .
Project Manager: Okay
Industrial Designer: Okay {disfmarker}
Project Manager: okay .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , m maybe the banana could be like a bit uh fatter than than the c c common one .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah , it should remember banana , but it's not {disfmarker} doesn't have to b to be uh uh really the size and exactly the shape of a banana .
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Like modified banana , okay .
Project Manager: So we are agree with the banana thing ?
Industrial Designer: Well it {disfmarker} we'll stick to banana , or ?
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah , banana's good .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Mm-mm .
Project Manager: So , {gap} the last point we decided it's infra-red , I guess .
User Interface: Yeah , I think infra-red .
Project Manager: Everybody's agreed .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah . Sure .
Project Manager: Uh , so that's it I think about the concepts . You have other thing to add to this point , or uh no ? So , uh about the user interface , so we are going to use L_C_D_ . In the last meeting we talked about uh hidden buttons . I don't know what we are going to do with that . You talked about the buttons on the side {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Like like peeling of the banana you s {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , peeling of the banana .
Project Manager: Mm what ?
Industrial Designer: It would be cool , yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Peeling of the banana , you know ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: should should discover the other buttons , which are hidden .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . And you mean the first layer would be spongy .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} First layer obviously spo Yeah ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: w It's it's like silly , but the people will really appreciate it , yeah I think .
Project Manager: Is it is it possible to do that ? It would be a great idea , but is it possible technically ?
User Interface: Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Like doing a spongy layer of the banana , and you open it .
Marketing: I think if we if we have a spongy layer on the outside of the banana then it's easy to make that ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: you know , to manipulate that to hav be a cover that you can pull off and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , some {disfmarker} Something like a plastic cover covering uh some interface , U_S_B_ interface as in the in uh digital camera . If you see it's like peeling . You open a plastic cover and you see some U_S_B_ interfaces , some some interfaces for adaptor . So keys can be uh buttons can be covered like this , with a plastic cover and uh when uh and when you open this cover it's like peeling a banana . So , something like this . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , but do you see that as a rigid thing , or like like a banana , something very soft , you can open like banana , or .
Industrial Designer: Well is it possible to make it soft ?
User Interface: Yeah , yeah , yeah it's a lic like a plastic cover , so . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So I think if it's so then it's cool ?
Project Manager: So , I dunno what you think , Bob , but it would be great for users I think , and very good for marketing .
Marketing: I think for sure . Definitely . The softer the better .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Cool .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Honestly speaking , I cannot imagine it , so far ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but it will be terrible . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um . And setting buttons hidden in {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm , other remarks , or something , or . Something we didn't talk about yes yet , or . I think we are almost there {gap} . Uh maybe , how can we , if we have a soft thing , like this , and to open it we have to attach it somewhere , I dunno how to do that technically , or .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And how {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Pof .
Marketing: We could use Velcro .
Project Manager: Yeah , maybe .
Marketing: Or uh ma maybe a magnetic
User Interface: Yes , yeah {gap} it's a good idea .
Marketing: thing .
Project Manager: Ma magnetic {gap} oh .
User Interface: Magnetic {gap} . Mm . Yeah or a {disfmarker} Yeah it can is it can be a plastic cover uh sticking to the to the all the stuff like uh with magnetic p uh magnetic uh magnetic uh {vocalsound} materials in the border , so it's it sticks like refrigerator door , completely .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: And when you try to open it , it will be opened easily . So you you can be sure that it will not be open while you're uh while while uh you are commonly using uh buttons on the banana .
Project Manager: Okay . And what would be the matter here of the first layer I mean ? Mm . Likes . Soft plastic , or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , I imagine some sort of vinyl thing .
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Marketing: In a in a sort of a with a suede sort of feel . Maybe .
Industrial Designer: Well since since the since the things like the like the screen and um how to say that , solar cell has to be has to be like kept kept in the shape , we cannot b uh {disfmarker} So we need that the that the peeling {disfmarker} uh I dunno but we should we should take care of these two two things . So , if if uh the solar cell won't be visible while the banana is closed , then the material must be able to put the light inside , you know . So that we can reach the energy out of it {disfmarker} out of that .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Mm . So you're saying is it possible to have a solar cell and this removable cover and
Industrial Designer: It is possible , but , well if it {disfmarker}
Marketing: And a and a banana .
Industrial Designer: I dunno .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: I dunno how to how to do it if if t if to if it's better to put the solar cell to the t to the peeling or outside it , or or inside .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But then it must be some window there , you know .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: And something we forgot , maybe , uh about the speech recognition system , are we going to use it , or not ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes , I think . I think so .
Marketing: I think it's important .
Project Manager: It i Yeah , it seems feasible , and it would be something very great .
Marketing: I think {disfmarker} One of our p priorities is tech technology .
Project Manager: So we have the de design , the a good shape , new and so on ,
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: And {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and we have also the technology thing w will be . And even the easy to use thing ,
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: so it will be perfect .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: So we add also the speech recognition device .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . I agree .
Project Manager: So , that great . We have decided everything . And think we are on a good way . So , um uh the next meeting will start in thirty minutes . Um , so uh the the Industrial Manager uh will uh will work on the look and feel design . The User Interface uh uh Mana uh Manager will work on the user interface device . And the the Marketing Expert will do the first project evaluation .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: So , I hope you can do that in thirty minutes .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And uh , yeah , I uh I think you should work together , s you uh Hamed and Peter , to work uh in a in a first prototype , and uh more about the shape and so on and how you can manage to put everything together . And um as usual you will receive some specific instructions on . So thank you all everybody ,
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: and see you in thirty minutes .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Thank you . | |
doc_119 | The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 13th meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. This will be a hybrid meeting. Some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person. In order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber, two screens have been set up on either side of the Chairs chair, and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces at their desks. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name, and please direct your remarks through the chair. For those joining via video conference, I would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute
Mr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC): I have a point of order.
The Chair: Can the member wait for the point of order until we finish the introduction?
Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: There is so much noise in the background over there, Mr. Chair.
The Chair: That is a very good point of order. I want to remind everyone that when we speak, it is picked up. We have amazing speakersand an amazing Speaker, but that's a whole other storyand amazing microphones in the chamber, and they do pick up everything. I know there was some chatter going on in the background. I want to make sure everyone is aware of that. Mr. Aboultaif, that was a very good point of order. I appreciate that. For those joining us via video conference, I would like to remind you to leave your mikes on mute when you're not speaking. Also, please note that if you want to speak in English, you should be on the English channel, and if you want to speak in French, you should be on the French channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages. Should members participating by video conference wish to request the floor outside their designated speaking times, they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order. Those in the Chamber can rise in the usual way. Please note that today's proceedings will be televised. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements for today, so we'll continue to the presentation of petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented. The first petition goes to Mr. Manly, who is joining us via video conference.
Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP): Thank you, Mr. Chair. This is a petition that calls on the government to deal with helping our honey bees. They are crucial to our food system. They provide hundreds of billions of dollars worth of services to commercial agricultural crops and other ecological services every year, and the European Union has put heavy restrictions on the chemicals that are affecting them, the neonicotinoids. This petition calls on the Government of Canada, for the sake of bees and our food security, to follow Europe's lead and adhere to the precautionary principle by banning the use of neonicotinoids in Canada.
The Chair: The next presenter of petitions will be Mr. Genuis, who is very parliamentary and dressed from the waist up, I understand.
Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair, and that is all you need to see for the moment. Canadians are horrified by the military report on the conditions of long-term care in Ontario. It raises big questions about the choices facing seniors in certain situations, which is what makes this first petition particularly timely. I am tabling a petition related to Bill C-7, the government's euthanasia bill, which seeks to dramatically remove safeguards that the government said were vital only a short time ago. When some people are living in deplorable conditions, we cannot truly speak of them as having a choice of when they ought to die. Especially in light of that new information, I commend this petition for the consideration of members of the House. The second petition is in support of Bill S-204 on organ harvesting and trafficking, put forward in the Senate. The bill would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ without the donor's consent. This bill seeks to combat the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking.
The Chair: The next petition presenter will be Ms. May.
Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP): Thank you, Mr. Chair, and greetings from SaanichGulf Islands. The petition I'm presenting today is petition e-2509, which has been duly certified. It relates to what I think many of us will regard as the real heroes of the last few months. In this pandemic, there have often been very underpaid and overworked front-line workers who receive minimum wage and nothing more, and who are of course deemed essential services. The petitioners have asked the government to implement a wage supplement as a temporary measure to bring the wages for those who are in contact with the general public and working in what has been deemed an essential service to no less than $20 an hour, in light of their service and the risks they're taking for all of us.
The Chair: We have a point of order from Ms. Harder.
Ms. Rachael Harder (Lethbridge, CPC): Mr. Chair, the honourable member who just spoke brought up a great point yesterday. She said that when we present petitions, we are simply supposed to give one or two sentences before putting them on the table. I believe that was more than one or two sentences.
The Chair: I want to remind honourable members that when they are presenting petitions, they should be very concise with the prcis that they give up front, as opposed to going on for a long time. Now we will proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes, and each statement will be for one minute. We will start with Mr. Fonseca.
Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga EastCooksville, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Today I am honoured to recognize the youth in my riding of Mississauga EastCooksville who are part of the 52nd Mississauga Scouts. For over a decade, I've had the great opportunity to join the Scouts every year during the month of May for the door-to-door food drives. This year has been a lot different, owing to the COVID situation, but our Scouts are not used to saying the word impossible. David Chant, head leader for their cub pack, reached out to share that the youth have found innovative ways to engage our community through a virtual food bank. I say a big thank you to Scout leaders like David, who are strong role models for our youth, teaching them the importance of leadership, kindness and giving back. I've always been amazed with the support within our community for the Scouts' food drive. David and his group of Scouts raised over $46,000 worth of food last year for the Mississauga Food Bank and The Compass. Again, I give a huge virtual high-five to all of our young Scouts, who have taken the lead with lots of compassion and care.
The Chair: We'll now go on to Mr. Richards.
Mr. Blake Richards (BanffAirdrie, CPC): May 24 to May 31 is Tourism Week in Canada. This annual celebration is a time for us to recognize the contributions and experiences of Canada's tourism industry. This is a very important industry, and this year's Tourism Week is a little different from what it normally is. The ongoing coronavirus crisis has closed provincial and international borders to recreational travel, and tourism operators from coast to coast have been among the first and hardest hit due to the government-mandated lockdowns. Clear criteria regarding border reopenings and health and safety requirements will allow hospitality and tourism businesses to sufficiently prepare to reopen. This includes rehiring employees, ordering supplies and putting together tour packages and marketing plans. Operators do not need to be set back any further because of a lack of clarity around reopening. While this Tourism Week is not a celebration like the one we had expected, I anticipate next year's celebration to be a celebration of an even stronger and more successful tourism industry in Canada. The 1.8 million Canadians whose jobs depend on a thriving tourism sector are counting on it. Bonne semaine to tourism.
The Chair: We'll go on to Mr. Rogers.
Mr. Churence Rogers (BonavistaBurinTrinity, Lib.): Mr. Chair, Monday was a sad day in my riding of BonavistaBurinTrinity, and indeed our entire province. Please join me as I offer sincere condolences to the families of the men who lost their lives at sea in a tragic accident off the coast of St. Lawrence in Placentia Bay. Ed Norman, his son Scott Norman and his nephew Jody Norman all tragically lost their lives while fishing for crab this past Monday. A fourth man, family friend Isaac Kettle, was also with them. After a courageous search mission by Canadian Coast Guard auxiliary members and the Department of National Defence and Provincial Airlines, he is unfortunately still missing. We grieve with the entire town of St. Lawrence as they mourn this tragic loss of life. Mr. Chair, I am sure the entire province of Newfoundland and Labrador, this parliamentary family and Canadians from coast to coast to coast join me in thinking of these men, along with their friends and families, during this difficult time. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The Chair: We'll now continue with Mr.Simard.
Mr. Mario Simard (Jonquire, BQ): Thank you, Mr.Chair. I would like to speak to you today about a solid man who unfortunately passed away on May25. We were greatly saddened to learn about the death of FrancisDufour. This builder of Quebec's political history drew his last breath at the age of91, late Sunday night. Mr.Dufour was the archetypal proud representative of my region who spent his entire life in Jonquire. He first became involved in the Alcan employee's union in Arvida, then continued his civic involvement at the municipal level as mayor, then in the Quebec National Assembly as the member for Jonquire. He will be remembered as a man with deep ties to his community, a man of integrity, a people person, who dedicated himself to serving citizens and advancing the independence movement in Quebec. On behalf of the people of the riding of Jonquire and all the people of Quebec, I offer my most sincere condolences to FrancisDufour's family and loved ones. Thank you.
The Chair: We are continuing with MartinezFerrada.
Ms. Soraya Martinez Ferrada (Hochelaga, Lib.): Thank you, Mr.Chair. The pandemic has greatly affected Montreal East, particularly the riding of Hochelaga, which I represent. Today, I'd like to recognize the exceptional work of all the volunteers and organizations in Hochelaga that are helping the more vulnerable populations, including Anonyme, CAP St-Barnab, CARE Montral, the Cuisine collective Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, Bouffe Action, the Centre Communautaire Hochelaga, Chic Resto Pop, Jojo Dpannage, Groupe d'Entraide de Mercier-Ouest and many others. I'd like to acknowledge the commitment of the merchants who have rolled up their sleeves, including the Coop Couturires Pop, to make masks. I'd especially like to recognize essential workers, especially attendants. Allow me to offer our condolences to the loved ones of the attendants who have lost their lives to protect ours. The citizens of Hochelaga are resilient and unified. I am proud to rise in the House to salute them.
The Chair: The next presentation will be by Mr. Cumming.
Mr. James Cumming (Edmonton Centre, CPC): Mr. Chair, I rise today to pay tribute to a great Albertan and former parliamentarian, Louise Feltham, who passed away this Monday after a lengthy battle with cancer. Louise was an entrepreneur, a public servant and a force of nature. She inspired the family motto How hard can it be? by creating communities and building several homes in her lifetime. In all that she did, Louise broke glass ceilings. Her many firsts included being the first woman to serve as a councillor in rural Alberta, the first female reeve in rural Alberta and the first woman born in Newfoundland to serve in this chamber. She was the MP for Wild Rose from 1988 to 1993. Her son Glenn served as the president of NAIT when I chaired the board. My thoughts and sympathies are with him, his wife Tammi and the rest of their family for this great loss. Her parliamentary family mourns with you today. Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
The Chair: We will now go to Mr. Bagnell.
Hon. Larry Bagnell (Yukon, Lib.): Mr. Chair, it is a great honour to speak to the House of Commons today from Whitehorse, Yukon, here on the traditional territory of the Kwanlin Dn First Nation and the Ta'an Kwch'n Council. As a great historic Canadian event last week, Yukon became home to Canada's first university north of 60. Yukon University will provide Yukoners with educational opportunities closer to home, expand our research capabilities and expertise on the Arctic and climate change and allow those who want to study northern and first nations governance to do so in the north. I encourage all students living in the northern half of Canada to look at the many programs and degrees at Yukon University to continue their studiesin some cases this year, virtuallyby remaining in the north. I want to congratulate the staff of Yukon College, who spent the last decade working towards this transition, and especially the outgoing president, Karen Barnes. I wish her all the best in her retirement. Thank you, merci, mahsi cho and sga senl.
The Chair: We'll now go on to Ms. Hutchings.
Ms. Gudie Hutchings (Long Range Mountains, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. First of all, from the Long Range Mountains, I too want to send my condolences to my colleague, Mr. Rogers from BonavistaBurinTrinity, on the tragic loss in St. Lawrence. We're all communities that rely on the sea, and we understand the importance and the tragedy, and the hard work it is being fishers. However, today, colleagues, I want to mention, as my colleague from across the way said, that it's national tourism week, so please take the time to get out and thank the tourism and hospitality businesses in your ridings. Most businesses around the world were hit hard by COVID-19. The tourism economy was hit very hard, especially seasonal and rural operations and the 1.8 million people the industry employs. However, this industry knows how to work hard. They know how to partner. They know how to look after their employees and their guests. They will find new and innovative opportunities and experiences. They will build new business and they will continue to attract visitors. We know that the domestic and local markets will recover first. I know that the operators in my riding are getting ready just for that. It's exciting to speak with them about how they're working on their new normal and how it's going to be developed and implemented here in the Long Range Mountains. Remember too that many of our national parks are opening on June 1, so get out and explore the park in your backyard. I look forward to working with the Tourism Industry Association of Canada, Destination Canada and my colleagues so that when we turn the corner of this pandemic, we are ready to rebuild a stronger tourism economy. Friends, go out and discover the tourism treasures in your province. They need your support. Tourism matters. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The Chair: Mr.Gourde, you have the floor.
Mr. Jacques Gourde (LvisLotbinire, CPC): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Some people were already too few in number and already burdened with heavy responsibilities even before the COVID-19 crisis occurred. I would like to take this opportunity to express my admiration for the dedication of all the essential workers who stepped up in the riding of LvisLotbinire. This crisis has created pressing needs and unprecedented emergencies. Fine men and women committed to human dignity, volunteers, retirees, and you, who have wisely agreed to stay home, you have been part, to varying degrees, of this great equation to minimize the impact of the spread and avoid the worst. The snow has melted, the flowers have arrived. Many children are happy to be able to expend their energy again; our seniors are being cuddled, with great care, and our essential workers in the riding are still dedicated to the job. I say bravo, thank you and don't give up, even though you have already earned your place in heaven.
The Chair: Ms.Bendayan.
Ms. Rachel Bendayan (Outremont, Lib.): Thank you, Mr.Chair. My father, who is now retired, was a researcher for over 40years. He was involved in many medical discoveries. From his laboratories at the Univerist de Montral, he worked with CHUM and the Centre hospitalier universitaire SainteJustine, renowned institutions in Outremont. In Fact, Outremont is full of professors, scientists and researchers. They are Quebeckers, Canadians, who are at the forefront of discoveries that save and will save lives. Since coming into office, our government has reversed the funding cuts to medical research and has invested billions in science. Recently, we announced new funding for COVID-19 research for fundamental science and supports for academic researchers. We are working very hard to find a vaccine for COVID-19, and our fundamental research is helping us to understand viruses that we don't even know the names of yet. It is this work that will help us stay ahead of the curve rather than flatten it. To all our Canadian scientists and to my dad, thank you. Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
The Chair: We'll now continue with Ms. Alleslev.
Ms. Leona Alleslev (AuroraOak RidgesRichmond Hill, CPC): Mr. Chair, citizens in my riding of AuroraOak RidgesRichmond Hill are showing incredible compassion as they help their families, their friends and even strangers during this difficult period. They are our community champions. The Aurora Chamber of Commerce and the Richmond Hill Board of Trade are helping businesses navigate in these difficult times. Organizations like The STEAM Project and Ganesha Temple are making and donating face masks for those in need. The Aurora Museum & Archives is collecting artifacts to document the pandemic for future generations. The Aurora Farmers' Market is bringing local farmers and businesses to us, but this year with one key person missing. Our community has lost one of the farmers' market's founders, our jam lady, Jan Freedman. We were deeply saddened by her passing, and she will be sorely missed. My sincere thanks to everyone who's working to ease the burdens on one another during this crisis. It's not easy, but this too will pass, and we will be stronger for it. In the meantime, stay safe, and let us all do our part to be community champions. Thank you.
The Chair: Mr.Deltell, you have the floor.
Mr. Grard Deltell (Louis-Saint-Laurent, CPC): Mr.Chair, we all understand that a crisis like the one the world is currently experiencing generates deficits. We also know that a deficit is a bill we send to our children and grandchildren, which is why it is important to be prudent, to make wise choices and, above all, to know where we are going. It's a shame that every time we ask the government a question, no minister can tell us how big the Canadian deficit is. We aren't the only ones concerned about the deficit and the government's lack of transparency. In fact, last Tuesday, at a parliamentary committee meeting in the Senate, the Parliamentary Budget Officer made some very scathing remarks about the government. He said he was concerned. He said that there had to be a deadline or we'd be heading toward taxation levels that haven't been seen in generations in this country because there is not a lot of ammunition left before we go into a large structural deficit. I'm not the one saying it; it's the Parliamentary Budget Officer. For weeks, almost every day, the Prime Minister has been announcing cash injections for Canadians. We agree with that. However, hundreds of billions of dollars are being spent without any idea of the deficit. That's why we're sounding the alarm and calling on the government to be careful. The Prime Minister needs to know that we can't play Santa Claus every day, because the bills in January come in fast, and they are high.
The Chair: We will now go to Mr. Garrison.
Mr. Randall Garrison (EsquimaltSaanichSooke, NDP): Mr. Chair, making sure science informs our health policies is critical during a pandemic. That's why I'm so disappointed that the Liberals have maintained the ban on blood donations from gay men and trans women. There is no science behind this ban. Not only does it reinforce homophobia and transphobia, it also reduces our blood supply at this critical time. Now we've learned that the ban will also result in rejecting plasma donors, when plasma is so critical in emerging COVID-19 research and treatment. More than 17 countries, including Argentina, Italy and Spain, have no deferral period for men who have sex with men. They know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than discriminatory identity-based rules. I have asked the minister many times to lift the gay blood ban and I do so again today, but today I also call on the family and friends of gay men and trans women to step up now and donate blood in place of those of us who cannot. When it comes to blood donations, we really should all be in this together.
The Chair: Mr.Desilets, you have the floor.
Mr. Luc Desilets (Rivire-des-Mille-les, BQ): Good afternoon, Mr.Chair. I've missed you, by the way. On another note, the emergency wage subsidy was created for people who fear for their jobs or their businesses. It's for people who need it, not for millionaire political parties like the Liberals and Conservatives. In Rivire-des-Mille-les, as in many other ridings, we respond daily to businesses that don't have access to it. Unfortunately, there are people in our ridings who won't have the opportunity to hire staff this summer. There are businesses that are losing less than 30%of their revenues; they are losing29%. These businesses won't have access to it. Everywhere we look, there are businesses that are falling through the cracks. Meanwhile, the Liberals and the Conservatives are getting the wage subsidy to fund partisan activities. I repeat: it is to fund partisan activities. The Liberals and Conservatives don't even do it on the sly; they do it openly. These two parties have raised millions of dollars since January. Every dollar that's taken comes out of the taxpayers' pockets. It's the workers' money, not the political parties'. It's so embarrassing that it's shameful, disrespectful and ridiculous. The Liberals and the Conservatives have to pay that money back. I think that's obvious. For the Bloc Qubcois, its immeasurably clear. It's a question of ethics, morality and respect for citizens.
The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Schmale.
Mr. Jamie Schmale (HaliburtonKawartha LakesBrock, CPC): Thank you, Chair. This week is Paramedic Services Week, and I would like to take a moment to thank these men and women who work tirelessly at the best of times to protect and save lives. Their efforts during COVID-19, like the services provided by many front-line workers in health care, such as personal support workers, doctors, nurses, janitorial and clerical staff, lab technicians and many others, have been extraordinary and truly beyond the call of duty. I hope this week all Canadians will take a moment to thank a paramedic or any front-line health care worker in their community for the amazing services they have been called upon to perform and will continue to provide in the challenging days ahead. Chair, I'd also be remiss if I didn't mention another unfortunate consequence of the current pandemic, the cancellation of the Kinmount Fair, a renowned event that has been running since 1870. This year the fair was to mark its 150th anniversary, but in true Kinmount spirit, this heartbreaking decision will not deter organizers from planning an even bigger and better event in 2021.
The Chair: Now we will go to Ms. Dhillon.
Ms. Anju Dhillon (DorvalLachineLaSalle, Lib.): Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the members of the Canadian Armed Forces from the bottom of my heart for their invaluable assistance in the long-term care facilities. Their deployment came at a critical time, when many seniors desperately needed them. Through the observations and testimonies of these members, we saw the extent of the nightmare that many seniors had endured for a long time. These are human beings who could not fend for themselves. They were treated with profound cruelty and carelessness. Among many other loathsome details, they were left to starve, were abused and lived in filth, their cries of anguish ignored. They were tormented and left in their agony. There is no excuse for this. No one ever deserves to be treated the way they were. I am talking about humanity, about compassion and mercy. It is up to each and every one of us to make sure no elderly person is ever hurt in this vile manner again. I take this moment to honour these victims.
The Chair: Before moving on, I want to remind the hon. members that, as the rules state, statements by members should be 60 seconds. That's one minute. Usually there are a few extra seconds, which doesn't matter, but some of them have gone quite a bit over time, so starting Monday we'll be cutting them off at 60 seconds. I encourage everyone to practise them or take a look at them, and try to keep them within the 60 seconds so that we don't go over our allotted time. We will now proceed to the questioning of ministers. I would like to remind members to speak fairly slowly so that the interpreters can understand what they're saying. I know sometimes we get excited in the House and we speak a little quickly. Just be conscious of it. I'm sure it will be appreciated by the interpreters and those at home who are listening in, as then they can make out the important questions and answers that are being given in this chamber. We will go to our first question. We will begin with Mr. Barlow.
Mr. John Barlow (Foothills, CPC): Thanks, Mr. Chair. The government has consistently worked to shut down Parliament and undermine personal sittings and has argued that the business of this country can be done by Zoom. However, for work of the G7 the Prime Minister said, theres no question that in-person meetings...are much more effective than even virtual meetings. By pushing to go virtual, is it the Prime Minister's goal to make Canada's Parliament less effective?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): Mr. Chair, it is absolutely not. In fact, I am pleased to be here in person meeting with members from across the country and pleased that our colleagues who live further away from Ottawa than I do have the opportunity to join us. Parliament plays an essential role in our democracy, and it's
The Chair: We will go back to Mr. Barlow.
Mr. John Barlow: Mr. Chair, that is exactly the point. This isn't Parliament; this is a committee meeting. We do not have Parliament. This is a virtual committee. A Saskatchewan producer called me and said that he tried to use the online AgriStability calculator. He said that most farmers can't use it, that in fact they can't put in their inventory changes. This means it will give them erroneous information. Why is the agriculture minister touting this lifeline for farmers when it doesn't actually work?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, the agricultural sector is critical to our country, and the questions some of us have been asking around food security have reminded us how lucky we are, as Canadians, to be living in an agricultural superpower. When it comes to the specific technical questions that farmers have, they should turn to the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food, who will be delighted to help.
Mr. John Barlow: Could the Deputy Prime Minister tell me how much it cost to develop this online AgriStability calculator?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: What I can say is that we are very mindful of and very grateful for the extremely
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Barlow.
Mr. John Barlow: Mr. Chair, farmers have even hired accountants to try to navigate this shiny online calculator, but they've been told they would go broke before they received any money. Will the government admit that this is just a fig leaf before any actual assistance will come to Canadian farmers?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, very many farmers, and certainly many of the farmers of my acquaintance, have worked with accountants for a very long time. Farmers are sophisticated business people who deal in the futures markets every day. They run hugely important businesses
The Chair: We will go back to Mr. Barlow.
Mr. John Barlow: Mr. Chair, it's that kind of condescension that is so frustrating to Canadian farmers. They shouldn't have to hire an accountant to figure out an assistance program. The last time I questioned the Prime Minister and the minister about the secret carbon tax data, they said that only part of it was secret and that the rest of it would be given to the House. I have yet to receive it. Will that be tabled today, in both official languages, to justify to Canadian farmers why the government has increased the carbon tax in the midst of a pandemic?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, what is condescending is to behave as if farmers are not highly sophisticated businessmen. They hire economists. They hire agronomists. They are at the cutting edge. I am proud of the sophistication of Canadian farmers, and I'm proud of the support we offer them. Some honourable members: Oh, oh!
The Chair: I want to remind the honourable members that the background noise and the heckling really make it difficult for the members who are tuning in via Zoom. I just want to make sure they're aware of what they're doing to our colleagues who are online. We will go back to Mr. Barlow.
Mr. John Barlow: Mr. Chair, for 64 days the finance minister has failed to deliver on his promise to assist Canada's energy sector. Small oil and gas companies still can't qualify for BDC loans, and last week's announcement for large employers, in my opinion, was nothing of exploitive. If the government doesn't fulfill its promise to provide support for the energy sector, it is in turn supporting unethically sourced foreign oil and costing good reliable Canadian jobs. After 64 days, when will the credit options be available to Canada's small and medium-sized energy companies?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, I agree with the member opposite about one thing: The energy sector and energy workers are absolutely essential to our economy, and we support them. One of the things I am most proud of is the $1.7 billion our government has committed to cleaning up orphan wells. That money today has created jobs in Alberta, B.C. and Saskatchewan. People are working because of it, and they are cleaning up their communities thanks to that support.
The Chair: Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe.
Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ): Mr.Chair, I'll try not to spend too much time. Will the Liberal Party of Canada pay back the money it took from the wage subsidy program, yes or no?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr.Chair, the purpose of the wage subsidy is to support workers, help them keep their jobs and keep them connected to their workplace
The Chair: Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe.
Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: Mr.Chair, I'll take that as a no. In my riding, Trillium Media owns several weeklies. The company doesn't qualify for the wage subsidy because it has suffered losses of28% instead of30%. The historic village of Val-Jalbert is in the same situation. Does the Liberal Party of Canada consider itself to be in greater financial difficulty than the historic village of Val-Jalbert and Trillium Media?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr.Chair, allow me to remind the hon. member opposite what we're doing to support Canadians: more than 8million Canadians have received the Canada emergency response benefit. In addition, 635,000businesses have received loans through the Canada emergency business account.
Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: Mr.Chair, I'll take that as a yes. Does my hon. colleague take into account the fact that the billions of dollars that are currently being handed out come from taxpayers' pockets? It even comes from the pockets of people who have lost their jobs and who pay taxes when they go to the corner store. On the other side of the House, is it considered justified for multi-million dollar parties to finance themselves with public funds, yes or no?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr.Chair, I would like to continue by reminding my colleague opposite what our government is doing today to support Canadians and Quebeckers: 293applications for the Canada emergency wage subsidy have been approved. Over 2million Canadians today have
The Chair: Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe, you have the floor.
Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: Mr.Chair, I'll take that as a yes. It's fantastic! The money that the Liberals are going to get from the wage subsidy is going to go directly into their election kitty. When they go to get their election expenses reimbursed, they're going to get 60%of that money back. So they'll have made the wage subsidy work for them. The businesses that'll have access to it won't, but the political parties will. Doesn't that contravene the Canada Elections Act, yes or no?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr.Chair, our programs don't discriminate. They're there to help all workers, to help all Canadians, to help all Quebeckers. The hon. member talked about companies and sectors that need more help. We agree with that. We think we all need to work together to continue to help Canadians and Quebeckers
The Chair: Order. We are returning to Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe.
Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: I don't know how to take it this time. I didn't get it all. I think it's necessary to stop, eject and throw the tape out, and provide an honest answer to the questions we ask. Can my colleague across the way answer a very simple question? Are their employees going to be used for political fundraising and so, once again, make the generous wage subsidy they receive work for them, yes or no?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr.Chair, I want to point out something important when we talk about our work and our economy. The important thing is that we have put in place unprecedented economic measures that are absolutely urgent and necessary. That's what we'll continue to do.
Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: Mr.Chair, we've already seen a Duceppe who denounces the use of federal programs by the Liberal Party for the Liberal Party. Can my hon. colleague tell me if she's able to look the entrepreneurs in her riding in the eye and tell them that they don't deserve the wage subsidy, because their loss of income is only28% or29%, while her party is dipping into the cookie jar, yes or no?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr.Chair, I am absolutely willing to look into the eyes of the entrepreneurs and workers in my riding because they know that our government is doing a lot to help Canadians in this historic crisis. Our economic support program is the largest program in Canada's history
The Chair: We will now continue with Mr. Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP): Thank you, Mr.Chair. The Canadian Armed Forces report showed the relationship between equipment costs and the lack of care for our seniors. Will the government admit today that there is no room for profit in the care of our seniors?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr.Chair, that's a very important question, and I would like to thank the member for asking it. I think this is a historic week. All Canadians have seen what is happening in Ontario and Quebec. We
The Chair: Order. We'll go back to Mr.Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, experts and advocates have all pointed out that in the for-profit model of care for seniors, there is more emphasis on the bottom line than on care for seniors. Will the Liberal government admit that there is no place for profit when it comes to the care of our seniors?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, I want to start by saying one thing, and that is to publicly thank, in this House, Brigadier-General Conrad Mialkowski and his team for compiling the assessment that they did of long-term care homes in Ontario. They acted with courage. They acted with compassion. What they did is historic, and we all need to
The Chair: We'll now go back to Mr. Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: The Canadian Forces, of course, always deserve our thanks. However, they don't need our thanks right now; they need to see some action on what they have pointed out. The government owns Revera, the second-largest long-term care provider in Canada. It's for profit, and it's facing a $50-million lawsuit for negligence. What is the government doing to protect seniors in the long-term care homes that they own?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, I agree with the member opposite that after what we have learned this week, all options must be on the table when it comes to how care for our elders will be provided in Canada in the future. I think it is clear to us all that root-and-branch reform is necessary. We need to act with speed but not haste, and work with our provincial partners.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: If all the options are on the table, will the Liberal government commit to removing profit from long-term care, particularly in the Revera long-term care homes, the second-largest number in Canada, which the government owns? Will it commit to removing profit from long-term care?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: What we will commit to doand I hope with the support of all members of this Houseis work very carefully and also very urgently in close co-operation with our provincial partners, under whose jurisdiction this falls, to ensure that these heart-wrenching reports mean that as a country we turn the page
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, Revera is a Crown corporation owned by the government, so let's not hear excuses. Is the government doing anything to ensure that seniors are cared for? Is it providing for robust inspections, yes or no?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, I want to clarify one point in the member's question. Canadian Crown corporations are not Liberal, not Conservative and not partisan. One of the strengths of Canada is that we have non-partisan government institutions, and they serve us extremely well. Our
The Chair: We will now go to Mr. Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, right now the current government is responsible for Revera. It is a Crown corporation. Will the government commit to ensuring there is no profit anymore in Revera? As we've seen, it is facing a $50-million lawsuit, and there's been horrible negligence.
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, as I said at the outset, the ownership structure of long-term care facilities needs to be on the table. Everything does. I also want to emphasize how important it is for us to do what we have been doing, which is to work very closely with the provinces, under whose jurisdiction this falls. In just the past 24 hours, I have spoken with Premier Ford, Premier Horgan and Premier Moe, and our conversation included long-term care facilities.
The Chair: We'll now continue with Ms. Vecchio.
Mrs. Karen Vecchio (ElginMiddlesexLondon, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Today I join critics from the NDP, the Bloc and the Green Party who deal with women's issues and gender equality to ask where the $75 million toward sexual exploitation and human trafficking has gone. Last week organizations had to close their doors and the programs that help vulnerable women and girls, so the simple question is this: Where is the money?
Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness): Mr. Chair, let me begin by thanking the member for that very important question. I agree that human trafficking, which is a crime of coercion and exploitation, is unacceptable, and we have to ensure that we provide the supports necessary to the victims of this crime. As the member knows, we have launched a new, comprehensive national strategy to combat human trafficking, and we've incorporated a new pillar in that strategy of empowerment to ensure that the focus
The Chair: We'll go back to Ms. Vecchio.
Mrs. Karen Vecchio: With all due respect, it's great that we have a strategy, but when money is not going to the doors of these organizations that provide these services, a strategy is nothing. It's all talk and no action. Where's the money?
Hon. Maryam Monsef (Minister for Women and Gender Equality and Rural Economic Development): Mr. Chair, let me pick up where my honourable colleague left off by acknowledging that trafficking is a heinous crime and that hundreds of organizations across the country are working to solve the challenges that come with human trafficking. I remind my honourable colleague that hundreds of organizations have received supports, and we will have more to announce to further support
The Chair: We'll go back to Ms. Vecchio.
Mrs. Karen Vecchio: It's so very simple. What should we tell the young women and girls looking for these supports right now? What is the answer from the government?
Hon. Maryam Monsef: Mr. Chair, no one should have to live a life with violence, whether it's sexual, physical, financial or emotional, and that the government of Canada
The Chair: We'll go back to Mrs. Vecchio.
Mrs. Karen Vecchio: Thank you very much. Yesterday I happened to be part of the health committee, and the Battered Women's Support Services representative was there as a witness. She shared with me that the organizations that she is associated with, over 500 organizations that deal with sexual assault and shelters, did not receive funding. Can you explain why?
Hon. Maryam Monsef: Mr. Chair, I want to thank Angela and the team at the Battered Women's Support Services. They are receiving funds through Feminists Deliver, but there are hundreds of organizations that will receive additional funds to provide the critical care that they need to support front lines and the most vulnerable in their communities, and we will have more to say soon.
Mrs. Karen Vecchio: Mr. Chair, we know that calls to centres like Battered Women's Support Services have gone up by 300 times, so this is a huge concern I have. What made this group of assault services and shelters ineligible?
Hon. Maryam Monsef: Mr. Chair, my colleague is putting words in my mouth. As I said, hundreds of organizations like the Battered Women's Support Services are going to be receiving funds from the federal government in the coming days. We thank them for their work and we will have more to say very soon.
Mrs. Karen Vecchio: Mr. Chair, the need is now. For instance, at London Abused Women's Centre, calls are up by 45%. I've heard from communities where they've gone up 200%. As I said, yesterday I heard 300%. The money is needed now. Where is the money for this program?
Hon. Maryam Monsef: Mr. Chair, some organizations are seeing demands up as high as 400% with their capacity limited by 400%. We've centres and women's shelters, and 700 have received funds, with more to come soon. I appreciate that this Parliament includes consensus among all colleagues that feminism and supporting women
The Chair: We'll go back to Ms. Vecchio.
Mrs. Karen Vecchio: If we're talking about being a feminist government, I have one single question. Yesterday the minister was not willing to answer the question, so I will ask the Minister for Women and Gender Equality. How can a feminist government support the Wet'suwet'en First Nation women whose titles were stripped from them?
Hon. Maryam Monsef: Mr. Chair, it sounds like my honourable colleague wants to compare their record on advancing equality with ours. We are happy to do that, and the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations has been working very hard to move this historic agreement forward.
Mrs. Karen Vecchio: These women have lost their titles, and the decisions were made with the hereditary chiefs and not the elected chiefs. Why is this government not standing up for these women hereditary chiefs who were stripped of their titles?
Hon. Carolyn Bennett (Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations): Mr. Chair, I think the honourable member knows that the route to self-determination is to have first nations, Inuit, and Mtis determine their own governance and abide by their own laws. Right now the Wet'suwet'en nation is in that process of determining what kind of governance they would like.
The Chair: We'll now go on to Mr. Sweet.
Mr. David Sweet (FlamboroughGlanbrook, CPC): Thank you, Chair. The Uyghur Human Rights Policy Act has passed both houses of Congress in the United States and is now on the way to the Oval Office for signature. What is Canada's position on this Muslim minority being jailed and re-educated by the Communist Party of China?
Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade): Mr. Chair, we are deeply concerned by the human rights situation faced by the Uighurs and other minorities in China. This is an issue our government has raised directly with the Chinese. Canada has also repeatedly voiced its concerns at the UN Human Rights Council. We will continue to call on
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Sweet.
Mr. David Sweet: The Burmese government is another being exploited by the CPC. Their Muslim minority was driven out and now languishes in Bangladesh, which is a commonwealth partner in the midst of this global pandemic. What will Canada do to answer the injustice done to the Rohingya?
Hon. Mary Ng: Canada will always stand with human rights. Canada has repeatedly voiced its concerns with the UN Human Rights Council. We will continue to call on the Chinese government to ensure that human rights of all of its people, including the freedom of religion, are fully respected.
Mr. David Sweet: Yesterday the rubber-stamp National People's Congress passed the national security bill undermining Hong Kong's autonomy and strengthening a grip of the Communist Party of China. Will the Prime Minister condemn this law?
Hon. Mary Ng: Canada, with our international partners in the U.S., Australia and the U.K., made a joint statement in which we are expressing our deep concern regarding China's imposition of a new security law for Hong Kong.
Mr. David Sweet: Canada has an admirable history of doing the right thing and helping when the situation is bleak. The Suez Canal, Cyprus, the fall of apartheid, child and maternal health in Africa, and Afghanistan are examples in my lifetime of how Canada has weighed in significantly. Why is the government letting down Hong Kong?
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, with hundreds of thousands of Canadians living in Hong Kong, we have a vested interest in Hong Kong's stability and prosperity, the foundations of which are Hong Kong's relative autonomy and basic freedoms. Canada will always support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedoms of the press around the world.
Mr. David Sweet: I think the 300,000 Canadians who are in Hong Kong want a little bit more than interest from the government. They'd like some action. What exactly is the government going to do to help those 300,000 Canadians who are in the breach between democracy and tyranny now?
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, Canada has expressed deep concern regarding China's imposition of the new security law for Hong Kong. The proposed law would undermine the one country, two systems framework. We are going to continue to support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world.
Mr. David Sweet: Mr. Chair, I have deep concern. After being fired at with pepper bullets and tear gas yesterday, 300 students were arrested in Hong Kong while peacefully protesting. Where is the outrage from this government with regard to what the CPC is doing in Hong Kong?
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, as we have said, we are deeply concerned about the arrests of political figures and about the law that has been imposed on Hong Kong. As we have said, Canada will always stand up and support freedom of speech and freedom of expression.
Mr. David Sweet: Mr. Chair, I'm going to give the minister another opportunity to answer the third question that I asked. Yesterday, the rubber-stamp National People's Congress passed the national security bill, undermining Hong Kong's autonomy and strengthening the iron grip of the Chinese Communist Party. Will this government condemn that law today?
Hon. Mary Ng: Canada will continue to support Hong Kong's high degree of autonomy and freedoms under the Basic Law and the one country, two systems framework. Canada and our international partners, with the U.S., Australia and the U.K., have made a joint statement deeply expressing our concern regarding China's imposition of a new security law for Hong Kong.
The Chair: The floor goes to Mr.Lvis.
Hon. Steven Blaney (BellechasseLes EtcheminsLvis, CPC): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Some hon. members: Ha, ha! Hon. Steven Blaney: I am pleased to represent the city of Lvis, because it is a privilege, Mr.Chair. It is the city where Alphonse Desjardins, who spearheaded the largest financial cooperative movement, was born. I hope you will not take that away from my time. My question is for the Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion. On April8, the minister announced measures for the Canada summer jobs program. We thought it was to improve the program, but can the minister confirm that the budget remained the same between April7 and9?
Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion): Mr. Chair, I can confirm that we have increased the wage subsidies for Canada student jobs. We have added flexibilities, including the ability to have part-time work and the ability to have the jobs extended until February of next year. That said, the budget was not changed. It remains at 70,000 job placements for 70,000 students, with 100% of them being subsidized at 100%.
Hon. Steven Blaney: The minister confirms that the budget remains the same, but that by subsidizing each job more, they are reducing the number of jobs in the midst of the pandemic. Why reduce the number of jobs offered by our businesses in the midst of the pandemic, when our young people want to work?
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: Mr. Chair, I can assure the member, all members and all Canadians that despite the fact that he's singling out the Canada summer jobs program, we also created an additional 76,000 jobs through our youth employment and skills strategy, with an additional 40,000 placements for students. I can assure the member that we are
The Chair: The floor goes to Mr.Blaney once again.
Hon. Steven Blaney: How many jobs are vacant right now? The program is lagging behind compared to other years. Why, and how is it that there is still money to be invested in our businesses to create summer jobs?
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: Mr. Chair, we are not lagging behind whatsoever. We created flexibilities in Canada summer jobs so that we can assuredly fill all of these 70,000 positions. We are rolling them out in waves. There are 45,000 jobs up on our job bank. I can assure young Canadians that there is work for them there, and I encourage them to check out the job bank.
Hon. Steven Blaney: The minister confirms that there are delays in the midst of the pandemic, when the university year is over and businesses are waiting to hire young people. Why refuse to create additional jobs this year under the Canada summer jobs program, when businesses need them to adjust to the pandemic?
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: Mr. Chair, I can assure you that we are not refusing to create any additional jobs. We've increased the number of jobs funded through our government's youth programs by over 100%. There are a number of jobs. We've added flexibilities into the Canada summer jobs program to maximize that program in ways that it never would have been maximized had we not done this. I can assure the member opposite that we are doing our utmost to make sure that young people have good-quality job experiences this summer.
Hon. Steven Blaney: When the minister says maximize, she is actually saying that there are fewer jobs this year for young people because the budget has remained the same, but that each position is funded more. My question is very simple: why not fund more jobs through the Canada summer jobs program instead of having open-ended programs like the Canada emergency student benefit, which does not allow young people to get work experience? We need young people and they want to work.
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: I agree, absolutely, that we need young people to work this summer. That's why we're creating a number of opportunities through a number of programs, Mr. Chair. Canada summer jobs is being maxed out, and that's a good thing, because we've increased the number of jobs and added an additional 76,000 jobs. I can assure the member that we're creating so many jobs, and it's so exciting for our young people.
Hon. Steven Blaney: The Canada emergency student benefit does not encourage young people to go to work, and employers have difficulty hiring them. Yet they had applied for the Canada summer jobs program. Why not enhance the Canada summer jobs program?
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: Mr. Chair, I'm sure the member opposite is not implying that offering young people income support that they take out of necessity will make them not want to work. Young people want to work. They want to serve in their communities. That's why we're creating these additional jobs beyond the Canada summer jobs program. That's why we've increased the flexibilities in the Canada summer jobs program. It's so we can maximize these programs.
The Chair: We'll go to Ms. Gladu.
Ms. Marilyn Gladu (SarniaLambton, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yesterday my colleague asked the Minister of Public Safety a question, and he did not get a good answer. Why are asylum seekers being allowed to cross the closed border and reunify with their families when Canadians are not being allowed to reunify with their counterparts in the U.S.?
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, to correct an error that was just repeated, we have put in rules that have excluded people from non-essential travel. We currently have an agreement with the United States that people crossing our border irregularly are being directed back to the United States. We've put in protection for those individuals to uphold our international obligations. We're continuing to deal with the
The Chair: We'll go back to Ms. Gladu.
Ms. Marilyn Gladu: Mr. Chair, I have in my riding a pregnant woman who is having her first child. The father of the baby is not being allowed to come over. I have another citizen who's married to an American woman who needs medical services every three weeks who is not being allowed to go over and come back. I also have parents who have not seen their children in months because they're not allowing custody arrangements between Canadians and Americans to continue. Will the minister create exemptions to allow the reunification of these Canadians with their family?
Hon. Bill Blair: I thank the member for an important question. It is never our intention to keep families apart. At the same time, we are exercising all due diligence to ensure that we prevent non-essential travel to protect the health and safety of Canadians. We've been working very hard to ensure that we have a solution for those individuals who need and want to reunite with their families. We will have further information on that as soon as we're able to resolve that difficulty.
Ms. Marilyn Gladu: Mr. Chair, the Minister of Agriculture has known there's been a capacity issue on cattle processing for more than a year and has done nothing. We don't have a BSE exemption that would allow us to use American processors, and there's been no incentive to create additional capacity to process. How bad does it have to get for the minister to act?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food): We have done a great deal for the meat sector lately. We have invested $100million in the beef and pork sectors through the AgriRecovery program. That's a significant increase, because in the last few years the program has provided between $7million and $15million only. That is significant. We have also invested $77.5million to improve the capacity of processors
The Chair: We'll go back to Ms. Gladu.
Ms. Marilyn Gladu: It still hasn't solved the problem. That's not a beef burger; that's a nothing burger. What is the minister going to do to help the cattle farmers who are struggling, especially in this pandemic?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, once again, we have helped the meat sector through the AgriRecovery program and we have put in place a $77.5million program to help meat processors deal with the situation and reorganize their work environment in a way that is safe for workers
The Chair: We will go back to Ms. Gladu.
Ms. Marilyn Gladu: It's not enough for the farmers in my area. To the Minister of National Revenue, I've had complaints from seniors in my riding that paper tax filings are not being processed. They're sitting on desks because people are not going in to the office. When will we begin to process those paper tax filings so seniors can get the refunds they need?
Hon. Diane Lebouthillier (Minister of National Revenue): Mr.Chair, we consider this to be a difficult situation for Canadians, and our government will do everything it can to support them. I can confirm that the CRA is still processing paper returns, but because of the reduced staff on site and the physical distancing, Canadians can expect delays. We regret the inconvenience this causes for those who file their returns on paper
The Chair: We will go back to Ms.Gladu.
Ms. Andranne Larouche (Shefford, BQ): Mr.Chair, I have a point of order. The sound is not very good. This happens when ministers respond in the House.
The Chair: We will talk to the technicians about that. I'm not sure whether there's anything we can do now, but we'll see if we can sort it out for the next meeting. It will certainly be fixed by next Monday. In the meantime, we will do our best. Thank you very much for your comment. We go back to Ms. Gladu.
Ms. Marilyn Gladu: Mr. Chair, obviously with COVID, many people are struggling with the loss of loved ones and their grief. The Canadian Grief Alliance has submitted a proposal looking for a very modest sum of funding from the government to extend their virtual grief counselling. Can the Minister of Health let us know if that funding has been approved?
Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health): I'm not aware of that specific proposal, but I commit to asking my officials to bring it forward to me and I will take a look.
The Chair: Ms. Gladu, you have time for a 15-second question.
Ms. Marilyn Gladu: Many are struggling with mental health in this pandemic. Can the Minister of Health tell us what she is doing to increase the capacity to help people who are suffering?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: I know I don't have much time, but let me repeat our infomercial to Canadians. They should visit Wellness Together Canada, the portal that will provide access for Canadians to a variety of mental health supports, including connection to professionals.
The Chair: Mr.Champoux, you have the floor. I'm sorry, Mr.Champoux; you are next. Mr.Waugh now has the floor. Oh, it's Mr. Waugh. My apologies.
Mr. Kevin Waugh (SaskatoonGrasswood, CPC): Thank you, Chair. Major events and mass gatherings being really out of the conversation for the foreseeable future, many event venues right now, such as concert halls and fairgrounds, are looking at the possibility of going more than a year without any revenue. Many are owned or managed by non-profit organizations. I can think of many in my riding, such as the Saskatoon Fringe Festival, Shakespeare on the Saskatchewan, the jazz festival, the folk festival, along with WDM and the Aviation Museum. Can the Minister of Canadian Heritage tell us what support has been made available to date to these organizations that are left up in the air?
Hon. Steven Guilbeault (LaurierSainte-Marie, Lib.): As the member knows, we have done a number of things in the past weeks to help the arts and culture sector. We could talk about the Canadian emergency response benefit, or the wage subsidy. We have provided advance help to a number of organizations from Canadian Heritage programs or the Canada Council for the Arts on top of the $500-million program, which has started to be deployed and will continue to be deployed in the coming weeks specifically for these types of organizations.
Mr. Kevin Waugh: Many media organizations are struggling. The reality only makes the allegations of predatory behaviour being levied against the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation even more disturbing. I asked the minister on May 7 about these allegations, and he said he had not been informed of the allegations but would look into them. We can't afford to have a Crown corporation using its status to try to wipe out its competitors in this country. Has the minister begun the investigation into the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, and does he have any information that he can share with us here today?
Hon. Steven Guilbeault: As the member said, these are allegations, and as you well know, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation is an independent body. It's not controlled by the Minister of Canadian Heritage or the government.
Mr. Kevin Waugh: Well, these allegations were in the National Post on April 22. I brought this up to you on May 7 when I talked virtually. Even more interesting, Mr. Chair, is that these allegations against the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation came from an organization in the minister's own province of Quebec, so can the minister take action to address any predatory behaviour on behalf of the CBC, or can the government's friends at the CBC simply get away with anything?
Hon. Steven Guilbeault: Allegations are allegations, whether they are made in Quebec, Ontario or Alberta. As I said, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation is an independent organization.
Mr. Kevin Waugh: When I last rose, on May 7, the committee responsible for the government's massive $595-million media bailout package had not met. It is now three weeks later. Has the committee met? If yes, when can the media organizationsand I hear there are only 29 publishersexpect the support promised? If it hasn't met, when is it going to meet?
Hon. Steven Guilbeault: As the member is well aware, this program is a tax-break program. In order for organizations to qualify, they had to file their income tax forms, which they have done over the last few weeks. The program is in place, and we are confidant that media organizations will receive the money by the end of the summer.
The Chair: Mr. Waugh, go ahead with a 20-second question, hopefully.
Mr. Kevin Waugh: There was $30 million rolled out to media organizations, some 1,400 organizations. Yesterday Postmedia announced another 40 layoffs. Has the $30 million been distributed so far in this country to all 1,400 media organizations?
The Chair: Honourable minister, go ahead for 20 seconds or less, please.
Hon. Steven Guilbeault: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would be happy to provide the list of those 1,400 media organizations that have received funding through that ad campaign.
The Chair: We will continue with Mr.Champoux. You have the floor, Mr.Champoux.
Mr. Martin Champoux (Drummond, BQ): Mr.Chair, I'm feeling generous today, and I will be sharing my time with my colleague from Pierre-BoucherLesPatriotesVerchres. At the beginning of the crisis, the government called on entrepreneurs in Quebec and Canada, inviting them to set an example in the situation we are experiencing. Many of them turned to the supplemental unemployment benefit plan to maintain the employment relationship and to preserve some security, enabling their employees to get through this difficult period with more peace of mind. However, on May22, despite the fact that these entrepreneurs had made sure that the SUB program would still be in place when the CERB was introduced, they were surprised. Employees were told at that time that they would have to repay the CERB because of the alleged gains they had made under the SUB program. At SOPREMA, one of the large employers in the Drummondville region, 150employees are affected. At Bridgestone, in Joliette, 1,100employees are affected by this decision. At Goodyear, in Valleyfield, 150employees are affected, and there are dozens more. Does the minister intend to correct this mistake so that employers who are able and willing to do so can treat their employees better during this difficult period?
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: When we put in place the Canada emergency response benefit, the underlying goal was to make sure that every worker who needed it had access to income support as they were losing their employment for COVID reasons. We understood that meant some workers would not have access moving forward, although let me clarify that SUB plans that existed prior to March 15 are definitely in place. We consider the fact that workers have access to $1,000 a month in addition to CERBand we've spoken with employers about thisto permit employers to assist their employees in an equitable way.
The Chair: Mr.Champoux, you have 15seconds for your question.
Mr. Martin Champoux: Mr.Chair, employers received absolutely no news from the government before this measure was implemented, despite the fact that they were assured that this measure would be transferred to the CERB. That's not an answer when those folks acted honestly and in good faith. They feel cheated, and rightly so. Does the government intend to fix this mistake, which would simply be the right thing to do?
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: Mr. Chair, I can assure the member opposite that the SUB plans that were in place prior to March 15 are indeed in place now. In addition, employees who are now on the CERB as an alternative have access to $1,000 of income in addition to their CERB. We are working with employers to perhaps provide the $1,000 in lieu of the SUB plans.
The Chair: We will continue with you, Mr.Barsalou-Duval.
Mr. Xavier Barsalou-Duval (Pierre-BoucherLes PatriotesVerchres, BQ): Thank you, Mr.Chair. On April27, Option consommateurs sent a letter to the Minister of Transport to warn him that the airlines' refusal to reimburse their customers for cancelled flights was contrary to Quebec's laws. What is the minister going to do to put an end to this situation?
Hon. Marc Garneau (Minister of Transport): Mr.Chair, I sympathize with the people who would have preferred to get a refund, and I understand their frustration. It is not an ideal situation. The airlines are going through a very difficult time right now. If they were forced to refund their customers immediately, many of them would go bankrupt.
Mr. Xavier Barsalou-Duval: Mr.Chair, the minister sounds like a broken record. A few hours ago, the following motion was passed unanimously: THAT the National Assembly ask the Government of Canada to order airlines and other carriers under federal jurisdiction to allow customers whose trips have been cancelled because of the current pandemic to obtain a refund. What will the Minister of Transport tell the National Assembly of Quebec?
Hon. Marc Garneau: Mr.Chair, as my hon.colleague knows, the Canadian Transportation Agency has ruled on this issue and has ruled that, in the present circumstances and in a non-binding way, it is acceptable for airlines to offer credits for up to two years. In the case of Air Canada, the credit has no expiry date.
The Chair: Mr.Barsalou-Duval, you have about 15seconds for a question.
Mr. Xavier Barsalou-Duval: Mr.Chair, I find it rather odd that the Minister of Transport and the Canadian Transportation Agency are telling the airlines that Quebec's regulations and laws are not important and that they can override them. It seems to me that this is a strange way to operate. Theoretically, under the famous Canadian Constitution, which they imposed on us, that is not how it should work. Can they uphold their own constitution?
The Chair: The hon. minister can answer in 15seconds or less, please.
Hon. Marc Garneau: Mr.Chair, as my hon. colleague probably knows, the Canadian Transportation Agency is a quasi-judicial body that operates at arm's length from Transport Canada and the Government of Canada.
The Chair: We will now take a short break. We're going to take a short break to allow employees supporting the meeting to switch in safety, including myself.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC)): We will now carry on with Mr. Baker for Etobicoke Centre. Mr. Baker, go ahead.
Mr. Yvan Baker (Etobicoke Centre, Lib.): Mr. Chair, I'll be sharing my time with the member for GlengarryPrescottRussell. My question is for the Minister of Health. Minister, in Etobicoke Centre, we are mourning the loss of 42 residents to COVID-19 at the Eatonville Care Centre. This week, we received a disturbing report from the Canadian Armed Forces documenting appalling and completely unacceptable conditions in the Eatonville Care Centre in Etobicoke, Orchard Villa in Pickering, Altamont Care Community in Scarborough, Hawthorne Place in North York, and Holland Christian Homes Grace Manor in Brampton. It is beyond reprehensible that our seniors are being treated this way. As I said in the House of Commons on May 7, we need immediate action and comprehensive reform of long-term care. The four other MPs who represent the residents of these homes and I wrote to Premier Ford yesterday to urge him to appoint a third party manager to oversee all operations, to call a full public inquirybecause a government commission is not enoughand to work in partnership with the Government of Canada to establish enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across our country. Minister, will you call on the Government of Ontario to establish a full public inquiry, and will you work with provincial governments to establish and implement enforceable national standards for long-term care homes across Canada so that our seniors from coast to coast to coast can receive the quality of care they deserve?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable minister.
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I thank the member for his very important question. I think all Canadians were horrified, shocked and saddened to hear about the conditions that elders were living in in those particular homes and that many seniors struggle with across the country. There is no question that we have to do better for our seniors. I know the Prime Minister has been very vocal about the need to do more to support provinces and territories to provide better care for seniors, no matter where they live.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr. Baker, you have another 20 seconds or so if you can manage that.
Mr. Yvan Baker: Thank you. I'll pass on my time to the member for GlengarryPrescottRussell.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now go to Mr. Drouin, member for GlengarryPrescottRussell.
Mr. Francis Drouin (GlengarryPrescottRussell, Lib.): Mr.Chair, we know that farmers across Canada have been going through some difficult times in recent months. In my riding, farmers are looking for labour and young people are looking for jobs. The Canada summer jobs program plays a vital role in meeting this demand. I was very pleased to hear that the government has enhanced the youth employment and skills strategy program to help create 700new jobs for young people in the agriculture sector. Can the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food tell us when and how our farmers will be able to apply for this new program?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, in these unprecedented times, our producers are working that much harder to feed Canadians while facing challenges that are not always easy, particularly in terms of access to labour. To help them, this week, the Prime Minister announced an increase in the youth employment and skills strategy program to help young people be hired in the agricultural sector. This is a $9.2-million investment that will help to attract young Canadians between the ages of15 and30 and to provide them with an exceptional experience in the agricultural sector. I encourage all producers to apply through the Agriculture Canada website.
Mr. Bruce Stanton: I think you finished, Mr.Drouin. We'll move on now to Mr. Johns, CourtenayAlberni.
Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP): Mr. Chair, I'll be splitting my time with the member for Winnipeg Centre. In early April, the NDP asked for a commercial rent abatement program so that tenants could apply for help instead of depending on their landlords, but the government chose to leave commercial tenants helpless if their landlord can't or does not want to apply. On Monday we wrote to ministers again, asking them to negotiate a nationwide moratorium on commercial rent evictions with the provinces and territories so that tenants can't be kicked out. Will the minister take action to ensure that no small business owner is evicted during COVID-19?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable minister.
Hon. Bill Morneau (Toronto Centre, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. We recognize the challenges that small business owners in particular, as well as landlords, are facing during the course of COVID-19. We have worked together with the provinces to come up with an approach that would provide an incentive for landlords to give a rent reduction to commercial tenants. We opened that as of Monday. Of course, we recognize that this is a jurisdiction of the provinces, so it will be up to the provinces to consider the next steps, if any, in this regard. We are looking toward seeing many landlords sign up for this. I would like to take this opportunity to encourage landlords to sign up for this, which not only gives them a sense of security but also their tenants.
Mr. Gord Johns: That's a no, so the government is still failing small businesses. If small business owners can't make June rent, thousands will have to close permanently. If the government won't negotiate a moratorium, will it at least let tenants apply for the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance program so they can get help with 50% of their rent?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Again, Mr. Chair, I think it's important that we have clarity of understanding of jurisdictions. We have worked with the provinces in this regard. The federal government is working through the CMHC to provide support to landlords, which is conditional on their working with their tenants, but of course, it is a provincial area of jurisdiction, so any further actions and any decisions on restricting evictions are in the provincial jurisdiction and not ones that the federal government is able to move forward on.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now go to Ms. Gazan, Winnipeg Centre.
Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr. Chair, they talk about wanting to support small businesses, but their failure to make rent support work is putting businesses out of business. When it comes to the rent for people's homes, the government didn't even try. Many people in my riding could not make rent on April 1 and May 1, and June 1 is coming up. When will the government act to ensure that families and individuals make their rent payments?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, for individuals, of course we've worked hard to provide support. Over eight million individuals are taking the Canada emergency response benefit. For businesses, of course, we've put in place not only the business account for small businesses but additional support through the wage subsidy program. We know that the rent approach is one that can have an important impact. I would encourage landlords to
Ms. Leah Gazan: Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Ms. Gazan, just a moment. Go ahead on your point of order.
Ms. Leah Gazan: I just want to remind my honourable colleague that his response is supposed to be within the same time period as the question I asked. It's just a friendly reminder.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): That is accurate. In fact, the minister was just coming up to the same amount of time it took for your question. I am monitoring that, and we will interrupt if one of the ministers responding goes more than just a short time over. In fact, we try to cut it off at the appropriate time, allowing a word or two perhaps to finish a phrase, and that's the extent of it. I'll watch that closely, the member can be assured. Let's go ahead then and finish up. You have another minute and 20 seconds to finish up, Ms. Gazan.
Ms. Leah Gazan: Mr. Chair, Winnipeg Centre is the third-poorest riding in the country, and COVID-19 has put many of the residents in my riding on the verge of homelessness. Instead of bailing out its corporate buddies, when will this government provide proper rental assistance so that families and individuals do not end up on the streets?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable minister.
Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development): Mr. Chair, we have provided support for families and individuals to maintain their ability to pay the rent. In addition to that, we have provided over $157.5 million directly to community entities for homelessness all across Canada .
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Ms. Gazan, you have about 40 seconds remaining.
Ms. Leah Gazan: Mr. Chair, adequate housing is a fundamental human right, especially in this time of crisis. How can the government not show leadership and provide the support that people need to afford their homes? Will this government provide support, yes or no?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr. Chair, once again, we have provided support to families and individuals so that they have the ability to pay their rent and pay for essential supplies and expenses. In addition to that, we have moved additional dollars, in the amount of $157.5 million, to the most vulnerable, including the homeless population in Canada.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will now go to Ms. Harder from Lethbridge.
Ms. Rachael Harder: As this pandemic began to spread, the government propagated China's talking points about how human-to-human transmission was impossible. Now, I'm sure that the minister regrets those comments. Does she acknowledge that they were misleading?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable minister.
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, the member opposite's continued lack of awareness of how science works is somewhat disconcerting. I'm sure she understands that this is a novel coronavirus that appeared on the scene in late December, and as the research community worldwide struggled to keep pace with understanding how the virus was adapting, the information changed. As such
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll go back to Ms. Harder.
Ms. Rachael Harder: I'm simply wondering if the minister would like to do the honourable thing and acknowledge that that information was misleading. Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, since the very beginning, we have been advising Canadians that they need to protect themselves from the novel coronavirus. We have taken strong measures, as a country, to do so. We respect the professionals
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll go back to Ms. Harder.
Ms. Rachael Harder: The minister also said that face masks weren't necessary, that they wouldn't help Canadians. Would she acknowledge that that was misleading? An hon. member: Good question.
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, the party opposite, obviously, does not understand the way that research and science evolve. The member opposite is propagating information that's misleading. She is the one who is confusing Canadians.
Ms. Rachael Harder: Why is the health minister misleading the Canadian public?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, as the evidence changed about the novel coronavirus, as our amazing researchers gave us new evidence, we adapted to adjust our advice to Canadians.
Ms. Rachael Harder: Why is the minister not able to acknowledge that she fed the Canadian public misinformation?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, why is the member not able to understand that science evolves with new information?
Ms. Rachael Harder: Back in January when we started noticing other countries closing their borders to stop the spread of COVID-19, Conservatives asked the government if it would do the same. In response, the Prime Minister called us racist. Does the Prime Minister still consider those who called for the closure of borders racist?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, providing misleading information to Canadians is not appropriate. As the member opposite knows, we took strong measures at the border, as recommended by the international health regulations, and we were able to contain the virus for quite some time.
Ms. Rachael Harder: I cannot agree with the minister more that providing misinformation is, in fact, incredibly wrong, which is why the government should simply apologize to the Canadian public for telling them that there was no emergency at our doorstep, that they didn't need to wear face masks, that we didn't need to close our borders, that human contact or contraction was impossible. Those are incredibly misleading statements. Why will the minister not just do the honourable thing and retract them and apologize to the Canadian public? Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, I maintain that the member opposite does not understand that as new evidence comes forward, that as new advice comes forward.... Canadians understand that. I am unsure why she doesn't.
Ms. Rachael Harder: I understand that knowledge evolves. I'm just wondering if the minister will retract the statements that she made previously, now that she understands that they are misleading.
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, I am so proud of Canadians for being able to adapt to new evidence and public health advice as it becomes clearer and clearer what kinds of actions can protect our health. I want to thank all Canadians for having trust in the public health officials across this country.
Ms. Rachael Harder: On February 3, Conservatives called on the government to treat this virus as a public health emergency and to take immediate action. Unfortunately, Minister Hajdu scolded Conservative MPs, stating that we were spreading misinformation and trying to sensationalize the risk of the virus. Would the minister like to apologize to the members opposite for that statement?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, very early on it was quite clear there were members of our community who were stigmatized by misinformation that was floating around in various circles in the Canadian community. We took strong action to assure those Canadians that we would be with them as we also fought the coronavirus in Canada.
Ms. Rachael Harder: Would the minister like to retract her statement that this side of the House somehow blew this up into something bigger than it is?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, as early as January 2, Dr. Tam was convening members of the Canadian medical community to ensure that we would have a robust Canadian response to an issue of potential concern. We have taken this virus seriously every step of the way.
Ms. Rachael Harder: In truth, Mr. Chair, while the government has told the Canadian public that the virus was not something to be concerned about, that we didn't need to close the borders and that face masks weren't necessary, they were misleading the Canadian public. Now they are crowning themselves as the arbiters of truth, spending millions of dollars to censor what information is and is not available online. Would the minister like to respond to why she is misleading the Canadian public and then crowning her head with the ability to monitor
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We're out of time. The honourable minister.
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, I want to thank our public health officials and medical community for their incredible work in ensuring that Canadians have accurate information about how best to protect themselves. We continue to work with the community and Canadians. Together we have managed to flatten the curve to date.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): I invite the honourable member for MganticL'rable to take the floor.
Mr. Luc Berthold (MganticL'rable, CPC): Thank you, Mr.Chair. One million dollars is the cost of installing air conditioning for a number of rooms in a CHSLD; it is a new fire station; it is 200more student jobs for day camps in Quebec. With $1million, the Liberal government plans to give an annual bonus to the president of the Canada Infrastructure Bank. Does the Minister of Infrastructure agree with the bank's board, which is being so generous to its president with Canadians' money?
Hon. Catherine McKenna (Minister of Infrastructure and Communities): Mr.Chair, I am very proud of what our government has done to invest in communities across the country. We are investing in infrastructure. We are building by investing in renewable energy, green infrastructure and public transit, including in the member's riding. That is what we will continue to do. I am very proud that Michael Sabia has decided to join the Canada Infrastructure Bank. We are going to continue our work.
Mr. Luc Berthold: Mr. Chair, could the infrastructure minister explain to Canadians how it is better to give $1 million in bonuses to the CEO of the Canada Infrastructure Bank than to invest in roads, schools, hospitals and long-term care homes?
Hon. Catherine McKenna: Mr. Chair, I am very happy to explain to the member opposite that we are doing just that. Perhaps he isn't aware of our $33 billion infrastructure program in which we are working directly with the Government of Quebec to build infrastructure that's making a huge difference, including projects in the member's riding. We are going to continue doing that.
Mr. Luc Berthold: Mr.Chair, she is not answering the question at all. On April3, the previous president of the Canada Infrastructure Bank left his position for reasons that remain unclear. How much did he receive in bonuses for his years at the helm of the Canada Infrastructure Bank?
Hon. Catherine McKenna: Mr.Chair, the change of management at the Canada Infrastructure Bank marks a new phase in the development of the bank. We are working to build a modern, public infrastructure, to create jobs, and to make Canada more competitive internationally.
Mr. Luc Berthold: We are talking about the bonuses given to the president of the Canada Infrastructure Bank. We have received no answer on that. What were the evaluation criteria that led to the decision that the former CEO had delivered a performance worthy of a bonus, when few, if any, projects were financed by the bank?
Hon. Catherine McKenna: Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the former CEO, Pierre Lavalle, for his contribution to the establishment of this new institution. I am very proud that Michael Sabia has joined the bank. We will continue to work to build Canada and create good jobs.
Mr. Luc Berthold: How much did he receive in bonuses?
Hon. Catherine McKenna: The range of compensation for the CEO is set by the bank and is publicly available.
Mr. Luc Berthold: Did the minister approve the bonuses paid to the former president of the Canada Infrastructure Bank?
Hon. Catherine McKenna: As I have already said, the compensation range for the CEO is determined by the bank and is public knowledge because of the legislation
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr.Berthold, the floor is yours.
Mr. Luc Berthold: Thank you, Mr.Chair. If the new president stays in the position for five years, he could be entitled to a bonus totalling $4million, in addition to his salary of $3million. Does the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities consider that this is a good way to spend taxpayers' money?
Hon. Catherine McKenna: We have to build our country, create good short-term jobs, ensure that we have a cleaner future, invest in renewable energy and green infrastructure in order to build bridges, public transportation
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr.Berthold, the floor is yours.
Mr. Luc Berthold: Mr. Chair, if the new CEO stays in office for five years, he will be entitled to a total potential bonus of $4 million, in addition to his salary of $3 million. Does the Minister of Infrastructure think this is a good way to spend taxpayers' money, yes or no?
Hon. Catherine McKenna: Mr. Chair, I'm very proud that we have Michael Sabia, who is now head of the Canada Infrastructure Bank as the board chair. We need to move forward in building infrastructure that's going to create jobs, including in the member's riding; that's going to help move us to a cleaner future; that's going to grow our economy and increase Canada's competitiveness. The bank is a key part of the investing in Canada plan
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will now move to Mrs. Gray, KelownaLake Country.
Mrs. Tracy Gray (KelownaLake Country, CPC): Mr. Chair, the COVID-19 pandemic has shown how important it is to be able to move our goods interprovincially. Christian Buhagiar of Supply Chain Canada called for the government to revisit interprovincial trade regulations to ensure we can quickly move production and distribution from one region to another during times of emergency. Will the government commit to immediately examine all our trade barriers that can affect interprovincial trade of essential goods due to COVID-19?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable minister.
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: I'd like to thank the member opposite for her excellent point. Our government is very committed to removing barriers to interprovincial trade. It's something that we have been working on with the premiers. Obviously the coronavirus has taken precedence in recent weeks, but it's a priority. It's the right thing to do.
Mrs. Tracy Gray: Mr. Chair, the federal government has a regulatory reconciliation table as part of the Canada free trade agreement, focusing on breaking down interprovincial trade barriers. Due to COVID-19, it has been announced that deadlines for all of these items may be delayed. What is the government doing to ensure there won't be delays on these items?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, it is absolutely right and appropriate for first ministers, who have been meeting every week for more than two months, to be focusing on the urgent threat posed by the coronavirus. However, I agree with the member opposite that we need to lift barriers to interprovincial trade. That's something we're committed to doing and to working on with the premiers.
Mrs. Tracy Gray: Mr. Chair, while many of these items were past due prior to the pandemic, two important items from the list that should be worked on now are meat inspection and food inspection. Considering serious issues from these industries during the pandemic, would the minister commit to restarting the work on at least these two items?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable minister.
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Thank you, Mr.Chair. I can assure you, as far as the Canadian Food Inspection Agency is concerned, that we are very open to that issue. Moreover, the authorities are front and centre in cases where there may be a food shortage in one region of the country or another.
Mrs. Tracy Gray: Mr. Chair, COVID-19 is adding huge pressures to our national supply chain. Those I speak with in the industry tell me they are beginning to see a backlog of goods. Does the government have a comprehensive plan to ensure the movement and resiliency of our national supply chain?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, since we are discussing the food supply chain, let me remind you that we are committed to spending $50million, specifically to buy surplus food and redistribute it, through the food bank network, to regions where the need is greatest.
Mrs. Tracy Gray: Mr. Chair, reports state that activists' rail blockades earlier this year cost the Canadian economy $275 million, and it took three to five days to catch up for every day that our transportation network was down. The supply chain industry just caught up, and then the pandemic hit, creating new issues and backlogs. We are hearing from those in the industry who are concerned about future blockades affecting essential goods getting across the country. Our railways are critical infrastructure. Will the government commit to immediately dismantling any potential future blockades?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable minister may reply.
Hon. Marc Garneau: Mr. Chair, I couldn't agree more with my colleague that it is important for our railways to be transporting all the goods that we produce in this country. I am in contact on a weekly basis with our major railways. Certain products are moving very well at the moment, including grain, potash and coal, but other goods haven't moved as quickly, because they have been affected by the pandemic. We are very vigilant with respect to moving our goods as efficiently as possible, whether it's by our railways, by trucks or by ships.
Mrs. Tracy Gray: Mr. Chair, at the standing committee for industry this week, David Montpetit of the Western Canadian Shippers' Coalition stated that they believe shippers are going to face a container shortage over the next six months. He also stated that we could be facing labour and capacity shortages in our trucking industry. This could backlog essential goods interprovincially, including food and medicine, if the capacity isn't there. What steps is the government taking to address this problem?
Hon. Marc Garneau: Mr. Chair, of course it's always important to have the capacity to move goods across this country. At the moment, our trains have the capacity to move goods across the country. With respect to trucking, we do have issues with respect to a lack of truckers for moving some of our goods across the country. This is a problem that has existed for some time, and we're working on it.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now move on to Mrs. Wagantall of YorktonMelville. Mrs. Wagantall, go ahead.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall (YorktonMelville, CPC): Thank you, Chair. Young and new farmers are struggling, as they don't have enough equity built up to borrow money to survive these difficult times. Price insurance is key, but the premiums are so expensive due to COVID that they can't participate. Has a price insurance program been implemented in Atlantic Canada?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Yes, Mr.Chair, we are encouraging the use of private programs, as well as the risk management programs. The initiative must come from the private sector. I cannot answer my colleague's question directly.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Has the minister worked with her provincial counterparts to secure a short-term cost-sharing agreement to reduce premiums where price insurance already exists?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, I can assure my colleague that I am working very regularly with all my provincial colleagues. In addition to our individual meetings, we have a regular telephone meeting each week.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Is cost-sharing of premiums already available for crop insurance?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, for insurance protection, our proposal to the provinces is to include the possibility of recognizing a labour shortage as an insurable risk. It is up to each of the provinces to sign on to that or not.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Without price insurance, how many ranchers have had to address cash flow by selling cattle at the bottom of the market?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, we have established a number of programs in order to help our beef producers. For example, we are providing $50million through the AgriRecovery program and $77.5million for food processors.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: On May 1, the Young Cattlemen's Council asked the minister to extend the deadline for attaining calf price insurance. Today is that deadline. Did the minister meet it?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, we discuss different options with representatives of various organizations almost every day. We are trying to work with them to improve the various programs and to meet their needs, in addition to the risk management programs, of course.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: She didn't respond to the request of the Young Cattlemen's Council. The minister is telling farmers to access the BRM program, but just now I got a text from a young cattleman in my riding who's losing $250 to $300 per head and just told me that those programs in no way increase their capacity to deal with this crisis. The Farm Credit Canada lending capacity was increased by $5 billion, but only to service and manage loans of current customers. How many farmers have applied for that assistance?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: However, Mr.Chair, there is a whole range of programs for our producers, whether they be specific programs for the agriculture sector, or the Canada emergency business account, the CEBA, the criteria of which have been broadened. This allows us to provide more loans, also with a forgivable portion of 25%, which could amount to $670million for the agricultural sector.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: What percentage of Canada's farmers are customers of Farm Credit Canada?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, Farm Credit Canada is well-established from one end of the country to the other and it is ready to meet the needs of our agricultural producers. In addition
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Back to Ms. Wagantall.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Of the 25% of farmers who use FCC and have applied, how many have received assistance?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, I stand to be corrected but, according to the most recent information I have received, $4billion in flexible loans to producers have been made available since the crisis began.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): You have 45 seconds left, Ms. Wagantall.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Is the minister concerned that cow-calf numbers will sharply decrease if producers aren't able to protect the value of their herds, which they cannot do, jeopardizing the future of the Canadian beef supply chain?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, I can assure you that I am extremely concerned about the future of the agri-food sector. That is why we are working extremely hard with the sector every day to improve existing programs and create new ones, especially in support of the meat industry.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: They made it clear that the BRM programs don't work and there's not funding in place to assist them. Three weeks ago, the processing backlog was more than 100,000 head. How many beef operations are facing the real danger of going out of business because of this pandemic and the lack of support by the agriculture minister and this Liberal government?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Once again, Mr.Chair, we know that the risk-management programs are not perfect. That is why we are working with the provinces to find solutions. These are shared-cost programs with the provinces and we want to improve them. This is why we are trying to incorporate some flexibility. In addition, we are supplementing the funding, especially for the meat industry.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now go to Ms. Wilson-Raybould in Vancouver Granville.
Hon. Jody Wilson-Raybould (Vancouver Granville, Ind.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. The Minister of Employment has stated that measures would be forthcoming for individuals with disabilities, similar to the one-time payment increase given to seniors on OAS and GIS. Could the minister please provide some more details with respect to the statement she made? When can individuals with disabilities expect meaningful financial assistance?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable minister.
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: Mr. Chair, we know that Canadians with disabilities are disproportionately impacted by COVID in terms of both their own personal health and the access to supports that they have, or don't have, more specifically. We are three days away from National AccessAbility Week, the first week after we legislated it in the Accessible Canada Act. I would expect something from our government during that week.
Hon. Jody Wilson-Raybould: Thank you for that. My office has heard from many constituents who are frustrated over the lack of information on eligibility requirements from the government regarding the business credit availability program. Furthermore, banks are giving small and medium-sized businesses mixed messaging. How will the government ensure that the messaging for BCAP and similar programs is articulated properly?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable minister.
Hon. Mary Ng: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank the honourable member for her question. Nothing is more important to us right now than making sure our small and medium-sized businesses are supported. The lending program through BCAP is available through financial institutions; that's banks and credit unions across the country. The money is flowing to those businesses. I would encourage Canadian businesses to get in touch with their financial institutions. Thank you so much.
Hon. Jody Wilson-Raybould: Mr. Chair, members may not be aware, but there are ongoing restrictions on when some civil servants can access government servers and their files due to the pandemic, to ensure that those dealing directly with the pandemic have priority. For example, this is affecting negotiations with indigenous peoples. Can the government please tell us when the system will have sufficient capacity so that all civil servants can do their work remotely and without limitation?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable minister.
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos (President of the Treasury Board): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to my colleague for her important question, which indeed speaks to the importance of public servants continuing their important jobs for Canadians, being mindful, of course, of the difficult circumstances in which many of those workers find themselves, both personally and professionally. We know that, in particular, indigenous communities need that support, and particularly so in the context of the crisis. We look forward to continuing to support them.
Hon. Jody Wilson-Raybould: As current and former parliamentarians call for a national inquiry into long-term care homes, something I would strongly support, can the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations please give the members an idea as to when the action plan on murdered and missing indigenous women and girls will be released? In asking this question, I certainly understand the need for consultation and the reality of some delays due to the pandemic. There are of course many actions that we all know need to take place now that do not need more consultation. The need for consultation cannot be an excuse for the lack of action.
Hon. Carolyn Bennett: I thank the member for her ongoing advocacy. As we approach the first anniversary of the release of the final report, we are grateful for the work of all of our partners as they really try to do what they can to end this national tragedy of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and those who are two-spirited, plus. Despite the challenges of COVID-19, they have put in good initiatives, and we look forward to releasing a national action plan that will include all provinces and territories as well as all of our indigenous governments and partners.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Ms. Wilson-Raybould, you're down to about the last 30 seconds, so please ask a short question.
Hon. Jody Wilson-Raybould: I have a short question for the Minister of Transport. Does the government have any plans to step in and encourage airlines to return money to customers rather than vouchers? I've heard from many constituents and businesses in this regard.
Hon. Marc Garneau: Mr. Chair, as I mentioned before, we're very sympathetic to the situation that those who would have preferred a refund are in at the moment. However, the airlines are going through an extremely difficult time, and if they had to reimburse at this time, some of them could fail.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now go to Mr. Blaikie.
Mr. Daniel Blaikie (ElmwoodTranscona, NDP): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I want to begin by indicating that I'll be splitting my time with the member for SkeenaBulkley Valley. Across the country, a lot of Canadians are preparing to go back to work right now and some employers are doing a good job of ensuring that there is a safe workplace, with the right procedures and the right equipment. Unfortunately, some employers are not. For Canadians who are employed by them, that means making a really tough decision between going back to a workplace where they don't feel safe and which may present a threat to their families or communities, and staying home and worrying about not being paid because they're not at work or because they will lose access to the CERB. I am wondering what guidance the federal government has for people who feel that their workplace is not safe at this time and that their employer hasn't done its due diligence, and are concerned about losing access to the CERB.
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: Mr. Chair, we are very concerned about the safety of our workplaces and we don't want workers to feel unsafe as they go back to work. However, we do want people to go back to work. We are working very closely with the provinces. The Minister of Health is working on occupational health and safety guidelines. The Minister of Labour is working with her colleagues. We are taking an all-of-government approach to ensure that workers are safe, that they don't have to put their lives or the health of their families in jeopardy and that we can support them in these efforts.
Mr. Daniel Blaikie: Mr. Chair, I think the issue here is that Canadian workers really need some certainty about what the federal government would consider an adequate employment offer, or an offer to come back to work, so that they wouldn't be on the CERB. Can Canadians be confident that they can stay on the CERB whether they go back to work or not, whether their employer makes them an offer or not? I think a lot of people have anxiety about this and it's a difficult time. When is the government going to release some formal guidance on how people go about refusing unsafe work?
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: Mr. Chair, we know that the provinces have their own workers' compensation programs and refusal-to-work mechanisms, but the point for us, here in government, is to work with employers and with the provinces so that we make our workplaces safe.
Mr. Daniel Blaikie: But this is about CERB eligibility. I respect
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Order. Mr. Blaikie, we have run out of time since we are splitting the time between two speakers. We're now going to Mr. Bachrach.
Mr. Taylor Bachrach (SkeenaBulkley Valley, NDP): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Canadians depend on municipalities across Canada for vital services, especially during this pandemicservices like transit, drinking water, parks and sanitationyet the government has left municipalities in an unprecedented financial crisis. Local government leaders across the country have called on the government for help, yet mostly what we've heard are excuses. Does the minister acknowledge that the federal government has a leadership role to play in getting financial help to municipalities at this difficult time?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: What we do acknowledge is the essential role municipalities play in our country at all times, and the particularly essential role they play today as our country gets ready to restart our economy. We are working closely with the municipalities to talk about ways we can support them and are working closely with the provinces, in whose jurisdiction the municipalities fall.
Mr. Taylor Bachrach: Through you to the minister, we've seen deep cuts and more cuts are on the way. We've seen thousands of municipal workers laid off, and it's been over a month since municipal leaders called on this government for emergency financial relief. My question is very simple. When can the municipalities expect the help they need from the federal government?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Let me just say again, Mr. Chair, that we are extremely alive to the importance of municipalities in our economy. We are very aware of the difficult financial situation they find themselves in, and we are very aware of how important it is to keep our municipalities functioning, particularly as we move into the restart. We're working with municipalities and are urging them to work with their provinces, as we are doing too.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We have about 30 seconds left. Go ahead, Mr. Bachrach, for 30 seconds.
Mr. Taylor Bachrach: I have a very simple question, through you to the minister. Are there emergency federal dollars on the table for Canada's cities, yes, or no?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, the federal government very much understands and appreciates the importance of municipalities. We are prepared to support them. Provinces need to do their share too.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): I now invite the honourable member for Manicouagan to take the floor.
Mrs. Marilne Gill (Manicouagan, BQ): Thank you, Mr.Chair. At a time when we are asking our fellow citizens and Quebeckers to make sacrifices and even greater efforts, the Liberal Party, the government, is directly pilfering from a subsidy program that should be going to those who need it, not to rich political parties and their millionaire supporters. At a time when the work in the House is even more essentialwe should be working even harder, just as we are asking the people to dothe government, with the complicity of the NDP, decides to suspend the work of the House. This is the result of an absurd agreement that is absolutely impossible for it to implement. Can the government confirm to the House, and simultaneously to the NDP, that the measure involving 10days of leave is absolutely not something it can do? It is not in its jurisdiction, so it is a measure that it cannot implement.
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): Mr.Chair, in order to be part of any agreement, you have to negotiate and be sitting at the table. The Bloc Qubcois says it wants to make gains for Quebec, but in order to do that, it must be sitting at the table, not outside the room. It's like a hockey game; if you want to score goals, you have to be on the ice. The other day, I asked this question: how many of Guy Lafleur's 560goals were scored when he was sitting on the bench?
Mrs. Marilne Gill: Let me shoot the puck back to the Leader of the Government in the House. He himself decided to close the rink, to shut down Parliament. That is where the teams are, and that is where the goals are scored. But when you play a sport, when you are on a team, and when you are in Parliament, you still have to play by the rules. But the government does not keep its word. It made a promise to us as well, just like it made one to the NDP. It was about the Canada emergency student benefit. The Deputy Prime Minister herself said that it was certainly a good idea. What did the government do? It backed away. I play on a team and I play by the rules. I take it at its word because this is the right place. Here, in this chamber. So I would like the government to tell people that this measure is absolutely not in their jurisdiction. That was my previous question. It was not about which parties were negotiating or not and when they kept their word or not. The NDP has to realize that their agreement is absolutely worthless.
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Mr.Chair, my colleague is alluding to previous current and future agreements. We have had discussions and we have reached a number of agreements with our friends in the Bloc Qubcois. It was going very well, but there was one agreement they did not like and they went off and sulked. When you are not happy, you do not go off and sulk; you stay at the table and negotiate. That is how things work.
Mrs. Marilne Gill: I urge the honourable Leader of the Government to recall the House. I am ready to be here, on the ice, all the time. I must remind him that we are not sulking. The Bloc Qubcois has self-respect and respect for the public. An agreement is not a promise, it is an agreement. A word is given in dignity and sincerity; a bond of trust is created. When a player decides not to play by the rules, I do not let myself be taken in twice. I prefer to negotiate here, as we should be doing all the time in Parliament, not trying to play with someone who never keeps his word. I would just like the Leader of the Government in the House to tell us that the measure about the 10days is not up to him and so he will not be able to make it happen. I could also ask him whether he found out from the Government of Quebec whether it agreed with the measure.
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Mr.Chair, of course, it is not in my jurisdiction personally. We agree on that. It depends on a number of players, including the provinces and the private sector. We at federal level are holding discussions with the provinces and people in different areas. Of course, we are holding discussions with everyone involved. I want to know what my colleague has against having six hours of questions instead of four. What does she have against the fact that, from now on, people will be able to ask questions about anything, not just about COVID-19? What does she have against the fact that we are going to meet again this summer? What is it that she does not like?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Ms.Gill, you have about 30seconds left for your comment. Go ahead.
Mrs. Marilne Gill: Let me teach the Leader of the Government in the House some arithmetic. First, 37.5hours per week, as well as the time we spend sitting on our normal committees, is quite a bit more than the eight short hours each week he is giving us. Second, once again, the leader said that it is absolutely not in his jurisdiction. So he reaches agreements with parties though his word is worth nothing. I hope that the NDP has not reached an agreement with him.
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Mr.Chair, it all depends on government decisions, and clearly, we are having discussions with the provinces. Actually, we have already started doing that. However, I still do not understand what she has against having more time than I do to ask questions. I would really like an answer from her.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will now take a brief pause so that the technicians can spell each other off. Order. I see Mr. Bezan on a point of order.
Mr. James Bezan (SelkirkInterlakeEastman, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Earlier, during the question time here, Mr. Sweet, the member for Flamborough-Glanbrook, got up and was raising a number of issues about the Hong Kong protests, where 360 people have been arrested. The People's Republic of China, the regime in Beijing, and their rubber-stamp parliament, the National People's Congress, are circumventing Hong Kong legislation and the Hong Kong government in putting their own will upon the people of Hong Kong. I believe this demands an emergency debate here in the House of Commons. Mr. Chair, I'm asking if you would rule on this and schedule an emergency debate so that Parliament can actually discuss this crisis, this human rights crisis, as political protestors are being imprisoned because of their standing up against the communist regime in Beijing.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): I thank the honourable member, Mr. Bezan, for his point of order. It was really more of a request. He may know, and for the benefit of other honourable members, that we're operating in this Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic under the auspices of an order made earlier this week. There is no provision in that order for emergency debates. However, I would certainly encourage him to speak with his House leader, whips and others. Of course, he'll know that discussions of this sort are being shared, so he might want to pursue that opportunity. I see Mr. Bezan rising. Mr. Bezan, is it a different point of order?
Mr. James Bezan: No. I'd just like to respond to that if I could.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Well, there's
Mr. James Bezan: Mr. Chair, this is the problem with this special committee. Our rights and privileges as members have been completely degraded. It makes it impossible for us to address the issues of this day.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr. Bezan, we're all operating under an order that was agreed to by the House. We'll stick to those provisions. Again, understand the situation we're in. Certainly circumstances do change, but I leave that to the party leaders to decide. For our last round of questions, we're going to CharleswoodSt. JamesAssiniboiaHeadingley, Mr. Morantz.
Mr. Marty Morantz (CharleswoodSt. JamesAssiniboiaHeadingley, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. My questions are for the Minister of National Revenue. Minister, I've been informed by some of my colleagues that CRA officials have been directing constituents to phone their member of Parliament to resolve CRA-related issues. Why on earth would CRA direct individuals away from the agency during this stressful time when they're just trying to get their tax information and file their taxes?
Hon. Diane Lebouthillier: Mr.Chair, I thank my colleague for that important question. I can tell you that CRA employees have to deal with questions put to them. It is not up to MPs' offices to deal with specific questions about individual files.
Mr. Marty Morantz: Minister, you didn't answer the question. These are your CRA officials directing constituents away from the CRA. You really should be answering that question and not just talking about how inappropriate it is, although I appreciate that. Also, on your website, it says that the telephone service for the individual-inquiries line will be available to Canadians until June 5, and there is no further information about further live service. When will you get your agency under control and make sure it provides an actual person on the other end of the line to provide the information that taxpayers need?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Just before we go to the minister, I would remind hon. members to address their questions through the chair. It's a little bit different from when we're questioning witnesses in a committee. We're using the rules more related to what we use in committee of the whole. The honourable minister has the floor.
Mr. Marty Morantz: On a point of order, Mr. Chair, as far as I'm aware, this is not Parliament; this is a committee. I've been sitting on committees since October. I've talked to my colleagues, and no chair, including the chair of the finance committee, has ever asked me to address a question through the chair. So with the greatest of respect, unless this is in fact Parliament, which I'm told it's not and the Parliament voted that it's not, we really should be able to address the witnesses directly, should we not?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Thank you, Mr. Morantz. This really is a question around the way in which this special committee on COVID-19 has been structured. We're operating under the rules that were agreed to by the House in an order that was passed and adopted on Tuesday of this week, so we're bound to manage the affairs of this committee in that way, and one of those includes asking members to address their comments and questions through the chair to other hon. members. So I ask you to abide by the rules of the committee, and we'll pursue that. Now we'll go to the response to your second question. The honourable minister has the floor.
Hon. Diane Lebouthillier: Mr.Chair, I must thank the officials who have done excellent work during this historic COVID-19 period. I must tell you that CRA call centres are an essential service and the agency is able to answer calls quickly. The employees are answering calls from their homes.
Mr. Marty Morantz: Some of my colleagues have spoken to the CRA about drop-off boxes for paper returns actually being removed at some locations, citing COVID-19 as a reason. Has the CRA removed these boxes at all locations? Given this, will you commit today to make paper filing postage-free, since paper filers can no longer drop off their returns at all of the locations?
Hon. Diane Lebouthillier: Mr.Chair, I thank my colleague for that important question. At the CRA, we continue to process paper returns and to do the work that we usually do. I repeat, I must highlight the exceptional work that the agency employees are doing.
Mr. Marty Morantz: On the subject of paper returns, there have been numerous reportsin fact I asked you on May 10 for a written response at the government operations committee, OGGO, which I have not yet receivedon the delays in processing paper returns. Apparently this is still ongoing. When will Canadians who filed paper forms have their returns processed so they can get the refunds they need during this difficult time?
Hon. Diane Lebouthillier: Mr.Chair, I can confirm that the Canada Revenue Agency continues to process paper returns. Because of COVID-19, we have had to implement distancing measures to protect the employees. We must ensure that employees are safe, but we continue to process paper returns.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr. Morantz, you have about 45 seconds left. Go ahead with your question.
Mr. Marty Morantz: Sure, Mr. Chair. During this crisis, the problem of illegal tax evasion and avoidance has been highlighted. The minister has been the minister since 2015 and should be able to answer this question off the top of her head. How many successful prosecutions have there been in Canada for the illegal use of tax havens?
Hon. Diane Lebouthillier: Mr.Chair, as we have said, one of our government's priorities was to invest almost $1billion to establish a system intended to fight tax evasion. That was not at all a priority under the Conservatives. We continue to do that important work for taxpayers; everyone must pay their fair share.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): That concludes the 13thmeeting of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. Speaker Rota asked me to remind all honourable members that during the next meeting, which will be next Monday, we'll be watching more carefully the time for members' statements. We're allowed one minute. We ask members who are providing those by virtual conference to time their statements to within one minute, as he will start to cut off members who go beyond the one minute. With that, this committee stands adjourned until Monday at noon. Enjoy the weekend. | |
doc_120 | Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So we are here for the concept design meeting . So , we will first start by summarizing the mm {vocalsound} the previous meeting and the decision we've taken . Uh I will take notes during this meeting so uh that you can uh look at my uh folder to see the summary of this meeting afterwards . So each of you will uh show us the various investigation they've done during uh previous uh hours . We'll then t take decision in concert and then uh uh we will uh define the nest {disfmarker} next task , to have {disfmarker} to be done before the next meeting . So , last time we decided to have a simple interface . We also decided to have a wheel to change channel {disfmarker} previous channel button . Channel digit uh buttons should be uh protected by plastic cover or something for the remote control to look very simple . We have also button for volume , and to switch on off the T_V_ . We have also uh the lightening feature for the remote control to be easy to find , and for fast development and low cost we have decided to have no L_C_D_ no voice features . So now uh we will have three presentations . So the conceptual specification by Industrial Designer , the specification of the U_I_ by {disfmarker} or U_I_ {vocalsound}
User Interface: Abdul al-Hasred is my name .
Project Manager: okay . {vocalsound} And uh the last point is uh trend watching by Market Expert . So maybe we can start with uh industrial design . So this is the presentation .
Industrial Designer: Uh , I_D_ you want ?
Project Manager: Maybe I can switch slide uh on your request .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . I only v have three slides , so . I just look at the mm {disfmarker} um just this . On some web pages to find some documentation
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and I think a remote control is , as I s mentioned previously , you just have a a very simple chip and the mm the user interface is just done usually by push button and in our case we are using a um a wheel control . So uh uh I was looking basically for that chip , which is uh very very standard , and uh I just looked for the wheel sensor and the standard push button . And um {vocalsound} yeah we can change directly .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: In fact I have the number of that element which is very standard for remote control . The push button are usually extremely cheap , but I just have one problem and this is related with the wheel sensor , which seems to be quite expensive .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And I think we if we could just talk about that if we really need a wheel sensor or if we can not {disfmarker} if if we could combine something with the push button .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Uh a wheel sensor is fifty time the price of a a a push button .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: But is it a significant price on the whole remote control ?
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Because we can afford up to twelve Euros for the price of the remote control .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah
Project Manager: So will will will this with uh including all possible things , so buttons , wheel and the chip , be uh lower than twelve Euros to produce ?
Industrial Designer: I I th {vocalsound} But I don't think that uh we should {disfmarker} We should talk about uh the design of the box also which needs some money .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay
User Interface: Also have to say {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: Did you receive the email about the voice recognition ?
Industrial Designer: Um that's all {vocalsound}
User Interface: No ?
Project Manager: You received something {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: yeah . I haven't chec
User Interface: Yeah . You we uh an email from the manufacturing division that they have basically a voice recognition chip already developed .
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: Says {disfmarker} Yeah . It says that ri right now they just use it to uh to record uh answers to particular questions . But I guess it could be {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And could it be adapted ?
User Interface: I guess it's possible . I mean instead of recording the answers you can just uh record uh something simpler like a command .
Project Manager: Okay and there can uh recognize some commands and stuff ?
User Interface: Yeah you reco recognize commands and you can record new commands and stuff , so if they already have it as uh as a chip
Project Manager: Okay . Yeah .
User Interface: then we we could use it .
Project Manager: Okay maybe we can just uh listen to this presentation and then take decision later on {disfmarker} according to those news .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but I think it's yeah {disfmarker} Sorry , I haven't written my personal references . Um {vocalsound} the I I just want to mention the the problem of the the r wheels sensor which is much more expensive than any push button ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: and if we could reduce that . We we have already some good things uh with um um with the backlight of the push button .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . I have a question about that actually {vocalsound} . Um , what is the purpose of the light ?
Industrial Designer: Just to to make something which is uh slightly more design that uh a squarey box with a rubber {disfmarker}
User Interface: Is {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You can easily find the button in the dark or so ?
User Interface: But {disfmarker} But in th in the dark uh {disfmarker} Yeah but is going to be always turned on , the light ?
Project Manager: It will be turned on when the when the user move the remote control I think , no ?
User Interface: But if you move it then you have it , you don't need to find it .
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: You can see the buttons better , of course .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . True .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Actually .
User Interface: But if you move it then you have to have some sensor to {disfmarker} when you move it to detect your movement .
Industrial Designer: As soon as you thought to move the the remote control you have the light .
User Interface: Yeah , but you need another sensor for that , right ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Again .
User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound} no it's too expensive . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I don't think that this is really expensive , but at the end this is plenty of unexpen eh very cheap devices but uh the bill starts to be {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay . Mm . Extra . Yeah , okay . Mm . Yeah , but I expected also the wheel would be cheap but you tell me that it is very expensive so ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} First of all I was thinking to have a a continuous light
User Interface: yeah .
Industrial Designer: and you w when t you you you you press the on button you have the light on your remote control , when you want to turn off your device {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: But it can be uh battery consuming , no ? To have the light always on ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , a little bit . A little bit .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Well we will discuss that after maybe
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay
Project Manager: the other presentations .
User Interface: . So uh my one , it uh should be in the shared folder .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: So . It was last time I saw it .
Project Manager: And it is .
User Interface: Okay . So ,
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} just move to the next slide . {vocalsound} So basically {vocalsound} want very simple , right ? That's the major idea , as simple as possible .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: So I just look at some current designs uh on the web , of usually more complicated remote controls . And let's look at two of them because uh th even though they have many buttons they look quite simple . And in our case we just uh reject the buttons what we don't need and it become even simpler .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Um . {vocalsound} So .
Project Manager: And also does it uh fit well in hand ? Because it was uh th your wrist problem with the usage .
User Interface: Yeah . Well this these uh these remotes are quite big , so go to the next page , so . We have all these buttons as you can see , but most of them , we just need the ones in the middle .
Project Manager: Yeah {vocalsound} . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: So , from the bottom or whatever is there , uh the uh the numbers and then the top , uh until the ten also , this middle part ,
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: and on the left one is exactly the same . So it's basically more or less how we would like it , with a big volume control , big channel control , and mute and power , yeah ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: These are the basic thing .
Project Manager: So it's only the central part .
User Interface: So basically , w software we will build will look more or less the same as these two .
Project Manager: Yeah . With a maybe a more ergonomic design on on the bottom part .
User Interface: Yeah , if you have , for example {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I think that the volume and the buttons that are there on the top are not very easy to reach with your thumb .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: It could be on the right side , for example .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah . Because we don't have these input buttons and this other stuff that they have . And I think that the plastic cover is not very good uh idea because
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: you open it , it can break , you ca you can do various things .
Project Manager: Okay . S
User Interface: Uh you just need to put the channel numbers somewhere a bit out of the way .
Project Manager: Okay . Will be down or {disfmarker}
User Interface: So that they're separate a bit ,
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: yeah . Uh and it's easy to press the other {disfmarker} the big buttons , but uh , it's not that difficult to press the the channel buttons either . Mm . Yeah , I think that if you put the cover it will be even more difficult for the user .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Alright , you won't {disfmarker} yeah . Usually what {disfmarker} I have noticed that people put the plastic cover on things that you normally don't mess with , like buttons for t uh tuning the channels and stuff like that .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah . That you want to protect a bit . And I think it's uh it's reasonable .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: So , I don't think {disfmarker} Yeah , this is just the the wheel .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: We could use the {disfmarker} some wheels can be pushed down , could use the push down of the wheel for the record if we want .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Uh so we could just basically use one just wheel and uh user could use just the wheel to do everything with the channels in that case .
Project Manager: Yeah . Maybe the wheel will be a {vocalsound} good advantage over our competitors .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Because otherwise it's pretty standard apart the fact that it's very simple . So maybe it's worse to uh to have more expense on that's that aspect .
Industrial Designer: To s Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah , I guess the market researcher will tell us all about that .
Project Manager: Okay . So we can move to the {disfmarker} Is there any question ? For designer of user interface ? {vocalsound} or we can move to the next part , maybe , and discuss afterwards ? Okay .
Marketing: Okay , I can go ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Can I ? {vocalsound} So now the recent investigation we we have done fo of the remote control um . So , the most important aspect for remote controls is to be fancy look and feel and not current functional look and feel . And um the second aspect is uh that the remote control should be uh technological innovative .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} And the third most important aspect is to to {disfmarker} is that the co remote control should be easy to use . So , are things we are we have uh speak about before .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . And um {disfmarker} so you you can go {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: after . And there is a fashion watchers in Paris and Milan that have detected the following trends , uh fruits and vegetables will be the most important theme for clothes , shoes , and furnitures . {vocalsound} So , maybe if our {vocalsound} remote control have to be a fruit form or vegetable form {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: something like that , or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I support an apple .
Marketing: {vocalsound} And the mm the material is expected to be spongy .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh I don't know which material {vocalsound} can be spongy ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: and if you {disfmarker}
Project Manager: This is good also for {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , wou wou I think we can certainly just put the electronics in a spongy thing ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: it it would work , right ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: I think it is good also f to have a spongy material , yeah .
User Interface: You can throw it to the television .
Project Manager: Yeah , because it's robust .
Marketing: Okay {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Me too .
Marketing: It's robust , yeah .
User Interface: Hey that's a cool one . We could say that if you throw it , you have a sensor , and you throw it and hits the television and turns it off .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: When it d uh takes a shock .
Project Manager: Yeah
Marketing: {vocalsound} Not good .
Project Manager: uh sorry ?
Industrial Designer: Ah it's okay . I know that they do that for alarm clock also .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: An and and uh this uh you can yeah you can say that . You ca uh you can go uh before
Project Manager: No . Yeah . Before ?
Marketing: , before , yes . And you know here the more iz important aspect is the fancy look and feel , after is uh technological innovative , and after the easy to use .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . I think it's innovative to use the mm the wheel because I think no one else has .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah that's why {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Has it ?
Marketing: Yeah that's why I think we have to keep that if it's possible .
Project Manager: Yeah . I think it's {disfmarker} it makes it both easy and both innos innovative .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Innovative . Mm .
Project Manager: So I think it's a good aspect and it should be kept .
User Interface: How do we make it look cool is the question .
Project Manager: Cool , fancy ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: We have to make it l look like a fruit or vegetable . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Maybe uh um {vocalsound} a colour that remember some fruit uh , things like that .
Industrial Designer: What about um {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm . Oh , colour , yeah .
User Interface: Well the obvious thing is a banana , I guess .
Marketing: Oh {disfmarker} i i {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Maybe yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I thought about a a pear , for example . You know the pear , is like that and it's it's easy to to have in in hand
Project Manager: Yeah , and it's ergonomic as well .
Marketing: and uh {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: A pear .
User Interface: The banana is also ergonomic .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . Maybe pear yeah or something like that .
Marketing: Or a fruit like that . I dunno .
Project Manager: Yeah . We can discuss that uh . D D Is is there anything you want to add ?
User Interface: Is there any fruit that is spongy ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I don't think so . I think we we can have like yeah a pear is good , fit well , or banana as you told .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Something like that .
Industrial Designer: And for maybe look and feel , what about a a piece of ice , with blue L_E_D_ inside ?
Project Manager: But that's not in the trend . {vocalsound} .
User Interface: You can make it um {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The trend is spongy , and vegetable fruits .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's not hard , the metal .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think p spongy is good because it it will be robust as well .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Plastic . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: So , I think we can keep the wheel because it's uh easy , it's innovative , even if the cost is a bit higher ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: and we also have to find a , so , a fruit like pear or banana wit uh any others idea you have . What kind of fr fruit would you like to to control your T_V_ with ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Odi
Industrial Designer: Banana I think , it's a nice idea .
Project Manager: Banana is also yellow so you you can't lost your remote control then .
Industrial Designer: Because {disfmarker} But {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: You y you don't use the banana when the banana is curving like that ,
User Interface: Two of the button , yeah .
Industrial Designer: but when the banana is curving like that , with the wheel on the top and to control ,
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and here you have a a push button to {disfmarker}
Marketing: But you don't have {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it's a good idea , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah so you can just have uh just have this curve , yeah , and you move uh your hand here to press the buttons and then you move uh on the other side .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: So you can have it on on two sides and it'll be cool ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: no ?
Project Manager: I think it's a good design and it's innovative as well then . Maybe we can keep the banana . And it will be very easy to find .
Industrial Designer: And everybody knows what is a banana .
User Interface: You can put also vibrator inside .
Industrial Designer: Basically .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: If you if you start with uh fancy fruits and fra s and tha
User Interface: Ah-ha . You can also take into account the fact that the banana fits with the colour scheme of our company .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Oh , yeah {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah it's really uh really a good point .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} I hope the students of management die ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but anyway . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Now who are recording this meeting ?
Project Manager: I think it {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} One second . So we have to take some decision on this aspect . So , uh so for {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: sorry , for uh component , so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we have to think about those aspects , sorry .
Industrial Designer: So we will just use a a standard battery ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And uh the chip we {disfmarker} chip imprint we know exactly which one we are going to use . Uh what do you mean by case ?
Project Manager: I think it's the box that should be spongy , banana's shape .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Uh I mean for me if we use a a spongy banana case , doesn't matter .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I just want to have so something to prin to to fix my my components onto that box , and that's it .
User Interface: The only th Yeah . Y Yeah that can be in inside th in the structure .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: But uh the thing is that the buttons and the wheel have to be {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Spongy also .
User Interface: I mean if it's spongy then the buttons and the wheel have to {disfmarker} I mean if it's spongy then it's going to move , right ? So , it's going to be bend a lot .
Project Manager: But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh no I think it's possible .
User Interface: So if we try to push the buttons , it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No the button would be {disfmarker}
User Interface: You think it's possible ?
Project Manager: In fact it it should be something odd shaped , with a spongy cover .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: . This is uh like the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay odd shape with spongy {disfmarker} cover . And standard battery okay , a chip imprint , there's no specific problem . So we agree to put the wheel {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Wheel on the top . Button , where do we want some buttons ?
User Interface: Well , usually hold {disfmarker} {vocalsound} 'Kay , we want it to be good also for the left-hand users , right ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So it have to {disfmarker} it has to be symmetrical .
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah but okay . Sa let's say that th o {vocalsound} It has to be {disfmarker} basically you can only take two sides , one on ths this side where is the thumb and the other side where there is uh yeah also the thumb .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yep .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Basically . Or you could use use this one , but I don't know if it's very comfortable , to use this one for the wheel .
Project Manager: Yeah maybe the thumb is more comfortable .
User Interface: This for the wheel and then this for the buttons ?
Project Manager: Yeah I think it's okay for both right and left . Mm .
User Interface: Should have the two sides .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So if {gap} the left , we have {disfmarker} the op
Project Manager: I think you can turn it this way also . You can do both with both hands .
User Interface: Wheel {disfmarker} Wheel buttons .
Project Manager: I think it's okay .
User Interface: Yeah , the problem is if you have buttons and wheel then when you turn it around , the buttons are on the other side . So you cannot see them .
Project Manager: Well , you you will get used to it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: And moreover , th the button ar are lighted so you you immediately identify the right side , because you have light on buttons .
User Interface: So the buttons have to be here and the wheel has to be {disfmarker} Y Yeah I know , but uh if you hold with your left hand , and the wheel is here , and the buttons are here , then when you turn it around the buttons will be on the other side .
Project Manager: Yeah . No you you {disfmarker} I think you will use it only on the right or left hand , whether you are righty or lefty . I think for lefty it's okay . I can do this movement , and for righty as well . I think this doesn't change that much .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah ?
User Interface: Okay . Maybe . Yeah .
Project Manager: So , for interface we said also that we have uh this banana shape with button on the s on the side . And {disfmarker} and uh a wheel on the top .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So the colour is yellow . I think it's uh {disfmarker} we defined everything according to what we should {disfmarker} what the decision we should take , yeah . So maybe we can um we can uh work on those aspects uh until next meeting . So have the final uh look and feel design according to the decision . And have the the user interface design and uh then evaluate the prodyuc {disfmarker} the product . That is to say , uh check if it fit the the requirement uh given by the users , but according to uh your presentation it seems to be okay . It seems to be fancy , innovative , and easy to use .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} to prepare the prototype I would suggest that the Industrial Designer and the User Interface Designer uh work together . That would uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: be better , I think .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And uh {disfmarker} And so uh you will receive further instruction by emails , as usual .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes master .
Project Manager: do you need to add anything ?
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You feel okay ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: You feel uh free to express what you want to say ? You don't feel too constrained ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You don't feel free to answer this ?
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Maybe you can make {gap} uh {vocalsound} uh mm
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay , so {disfmarker}
User Interface: okay .
Industrial Designer: Thank you .
Project Manager: See you . | |
doc_121 | Grad A: OK , this is one channel . Can you uh , say your name and talk into your mike one at a time ?
PhD C: This is Eric on channel three , I believe .
Grad A: OK . Uh , I don't think it 's on there , Jane .
Undergrad D: Tasting one two three , tasting .
Postdoc E: OK , this is Jane on channel five .
Grad A: Uh , I still don't see you Jane .
Postdoc E: Oh , darn , what am I doing wrong ?
Undergrad D: Can you see me on channel four ? Really ?
Grad A: Yeah , I s
Undergrad D: My lucky day .
Postdoc E: Uh , screen no , {disfmarker} it is , oh , maybe it just warmed up ?
Grad A: No .
Postdoc E: Oh , darn , can you can't see channel five yet ?
Grad A: Uh , well , the mike isn't close enough to your mouth , so .
Postdoc E: Oh , this would be k OK , is that better ?
Grad A: S uh , try speaking loudly ,
Undergrad D: I like the high quality labelling .
Grad A: so ,
Postdoc E: Hello ,
Grad A: OK , good .
Undergrad D: David , can we borrow your labelling machine to improve the quality of the labelling a little bit here ?
Postdoc E: hello . Alright .
Grad A: Thank you .
PhD B: One t
Undergrad D: How {disfmarker} how many are there , one to five ?
PhD B: One five , yeah .
Undergrad D: Yeah , please .
Postdoc E: Would you like to join the meeting ?
Grad A: Well , we don't wanna renumber them ,
Postdoc E: I bet {disfmarker}
Grad A: cuz we 've already have like , forms filled out with the numbers on them . So , let 's keep the same numbers on them .
PhD B: Yeah , OK , that 's a good idea .
Grad A: OK , Dan , are you on ?
PhD B: I 'm on {disfmarker} I 'm on two and I should be on .
Grad A: Good .
PhD B: Yeah .
Undergrad D: Want to join the meeting , Dave ? Do we {disfmarker} do {disfmarker} do we have a spare , uh {disfmarker}
Grad A: And I 'm getting lots of responses on different ones , so I assume {pause} the various and assorted P Z Ms are on .
Undergrad D: We ' r we 're {disfmarker} we ' r This is {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this is a meeting meeting .
Postdoc E: This is abou we 're {disfmarker} we 're mainly being taped but we 're gonna talk about , uh , transcription for the m future meeting meetings .
Grad A: Stuff . Yeah , this is not something you need to attend . So .
Postdoc E: Yeah . e OK .
PhD C: You 're always having one of those days , Dave .
Postdoc E: Y you 'd be welcome .
Grad A: Besides , I don't want anyone who has a weird accent .
Postdoc E: You 'd be welcome .
Grad A: Right , Dan ?
Undergrad D: So , I don't understand if it 's neck mounted you don't get very good performance .
PhD C: It 's not neck mounted . It 's supposed to be h head mounted .
Undergrad D: Yeah . It {disfmarker} it should be head mounted . Right ?
Grad A: Well , then put it on your head .
PhD B: I don't know .
PhD C: Right .
Grad A: What are you doing ?
Undergrad D: Cuz when you do this , you can {disfmarker} Rouww - Rouww .
Postdoc E: Why didn't I {disfmarker} you were saying that but I could hear you really well on the {disfmarker} on the transcription {disfmarker} on the , uh , tape .
Grad A: Well , I m I would prefer that people wore it on their head
PhD B: I {disfmarker} I don't know .
PhD C: i
Grad A: but they were complaining about it . Because it 's not {disfmarker} it doesn't go over the ears .
Undergrad D: Why ?
Postdoc E: It 's badly designed .
Grad A: It 's very badly designed so it 's {disfmarker}
PhD B: It 's very badly designed ?
Undergrad D: What do you mean it doesn't go over the ears ?
PhD B: Why ? It 's not s It 's not supposed to cover up your ears .
Grad A: Yeah but , there 's nowhere to put the pad so it 's comfortable .
PhD B: I mean , it 's only badly {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: So that 's what you 're d He 's got it on his temples so it cuts off his circulation .
PhD B: Oh , that 's strange .
PhD C: Yeah , that 's {disfmarker} that 's what I have .
Grad A: And it feels so good that way .
PhD C: It feels so good when I stop .
Grad A: So I {disfmarker} I again would like to do some digits .
Undergrad D: Somebody wanna {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Try it .
Grad A: Um .
Undergrad D: Somebody wanna close the door ?
Grad A: Sure .
PhD B: OK .
Postdoc E: We could do it with noise .
Grad A: So let me {disfmarker}
PhD C: You 're always doing digits .
Grad A: Well , you know , I 'm just that sort of {disfmarker} digit - y g sorta guy . OK . So this is Adam .
Postdoc E: Uh , this is the same one I had before .
Grad A: I doubt it .
PhD B: It 's still the same words .
Grad A: I think we 're session four by the way . Or m it might be five .
Undergrad D: Psss ! Oh , that 's good .
Postdoc E: No
Grad A: I didn't bring my previous thing .
PhD B: We didn't {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Now , just to be sure , the numbers on the back , this is the channel ?
PhD B: That 's the microphone number .
Postdoc E: That 's the microphone number .
Grad A: Yeah , d leave the channel blank .
Postdoc E: Uh - oh . OK , good .
Undergrad D: But number has to be {disfmarker} ? So we have to look up the number .
Postdoc E: Five {disfmarker}
Grad A: Right .
Undergrad D: OK , good .
Postdoc E: Good . OK . Well , this is Jane , on mike number five . Um . I just start ? Do I need to say anything more ?
Grad A: Uh , transcript number .
PhD B: Transcript number {disfmarker}
PhD C: OK , this is Eric on microphone number three ,
Undergrad D: This is Beck on mike four .
Grad A: Thanks . Should I turn off the VU meter Dan ? Do you think that makes any difference ?
PhD B: Oh , God . No , let me do it .
Grad A: Why ? Are you gonna do something other than hit " quit " ?
PhD B: No , but I 'm gonna look at the uh , logs as well .
Grad A: Oh . Should have done it before .
Postdoc E: Uh , you said turn off the what ?
Grad A: The VU meter which tells you what the levels on the various mikes are and there was one hypothesis that perhaps that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the act of recording the VU meter was one of the things that contributed to the errors .
Postdoc E: Oh . Oh , I see .
Undergrad D: Yeah , but Eric , uh , you didn't think that was a reasonable hypothesis , right ?
Postdoc E: I See .
Grad A: That was me ,
Undergrad D: Oh , I 'm sorry y
Grad A: I thought that was {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: That was malarkey .
Grad A: Well , the only reason that could be is if the driver has a bug . Right ? Because the machine just isn't very heavily loaded .
Undergrad D: No chance of that .
Grad A: No chance of that . Just because it 's beta . Look OK ?
PhD B: Yeah , there {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there was {disfmarker} there was a {disfmarker} there was a bug . There was a glitch last time we ran .
Undergrad D: Are - are yo are you recording where the table mikes are by the way ?
PhD B: No .
Undergrad D: Do you know which channels {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah , we usually do that .
PhD B: No , we don't .
Grad A: Yeah .
PhD B: But we {disfmarker} we ought to st we ought to standardize .
Undergrad D: Why not ?
PhD B: I think , {vocalsound} uh , I s I spoke to somebody , Morgan , {comment} about that . I think {disfmarker} I think we should put mar Well , no , w we can do that .
Undergrad D: Why don't you just do this ?
Grad A: I mean , that 's what we 've done before .
PhD B: I know what they {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're four , three , two , one . In order now .
Undergrad D: Four .
PhD B: Three , two , {vocalsound} and one .
Undergrad D: Three .
PhD B: But I think {disfmarker} I think we should put them in standard positions . I think we should make little marks on the table top .
Grad A: Which means we need to move this thing , and sorta decide how we 're actually going to do things .
PhD B: So that we can put them {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Oh , OK .
PhD B: I guess that 's the point .
Grad A: So .
PhD B: It 'll be a lot easier if we have a {disfmarker} if we have them permanently in place or something like that .
Grad A: Right .
Postdoc E: I do wish there were big booms coming down from the ceiling .
PhD B: You do ?
Postdoc E: Yeah .
PhD C: Would it make you feel more important ?
Grad A: Mmm .
Postdoc E: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
PhD C: I see .
Undergrad D: Wait till the projector gets installed .
Postdoc E: You know .
Grad A: That 'll work .
Postdoc E: Oh , that 'll be good .
Grad A: That 'll work .
PhD B: Oh , gosh .
Undergrad D: Cuz it 's gonna hang down , make noise .
Postdoc E: OK .
PhD B: When 's it gonna be installed ?
Postdoc E: OK .
Undergrad D: Well , {vocalsound} it depends on
PhD B: I see .
Undergrad D: Is this b is this being recorded ?
Grad A: That 's right .
Undergrad D: Uh , I think Lila actually is almost getting r pretty close to even getting ready to put out the purchase order .
PhD B: OK . Cool .
Undergrad D: I handed it off to her about a month ago .
PhD B: I see .
Grad A: OK , so , topic of this meeting is I wanna talk a little bit about transcription . Um , I 've looked a little bit into commercial transcription services and Jane has been working on doing transcription . Uh , and so we wan wanna decide what we 're gonna do with that and then get an update on the electronics , and then , uh , maybe also talk a little bit about some infrastructure and tools , and so on . Um , you know , eventually we 're probably gonna wanna distribute this thing and we should decide how we 're gonna {disfmarker} how we 're gonna handle some of these factors . So .
PhD B: Distribute what ?
Grad A: Hmm ?
PhD B: The data ?
Grad A: Right . Right . I mean , so we 're {disfmarker} we 're collecting a corpus and I think it 's gonna be generally useful . I mean , it seems like it 's not a corpus which is {disfmarker} uh , has been done before . And so I think people will be interested in having {disfmarker} having it ,
PhD B: Oh .
Grad A: and so we will {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: u Using , like , audio D V Ds or something like that ?
Grad A: Excuse me ?
PhD B: Yes .
Undergrad D: Audio D V
Grad A: Well , or something . Yeah , audio D V C Ds ,
Undergrad D: Or t
Grad A: you know .
Undergrad D: Yeah . tapes .
Grad A: And {disfmarker} and so how we do we distribute the transcripts , how do we distribute the audio files , how do we {disfmarker} how do we just do all that infrastructure ?
PhD C: Well , I think {disfmarker} I mean , for that particular issue ther there are known sources where people go to {disfmarker} to find these kind of things like the LDC for instance .
Postdoc E: Yeah ,
Grad A: Right , but {disfmarker} but so should we do it in the same format as LDC
Postdoc E: that 's right .
Grad A: and what does that mean to what we 've done already ?
PhD B: Right . The {disfmarker} It 's not so much the actu The logistics of distribution are secondary to {pause} preparing the data in a suitable form for distribution .
PhD C: Right .
Grad A: Right . So , uh , as it is , it 's sort of a {pause} ad - hoc combination of stuff Dan set and stuff I set up , which we may wanna make a little more formal . So .
PhD B: And the other thing is that , um , University of Washington may want to start recording meetings as well ,
Grad A: Right .
PhD B: in which case w w we 'll have to decide what we 've actually got so that we can give them a copy .
Grad A: That 's right .
Undergrad D: A field trip .
Grad A: Yeah . I was actually thinking I wouldn't mind spending the summer up there . That would be kind of fun .
PhD B: Oh , really ?
Grad A: Yeah . Visit my friends and spend some time {disfmarker}
PhD B: Different for you . Yes .
Grad A: Well , and then also I have a bunch of stuff for doing this digits . So I have a bunch of scripts with X Waves , and some Perl scripts , and other things that make it really easy to extract out {vocalsound} and align where the digits are . And if U d UW 's going to do the same thing I think it 's worth while for them to do these digits tasks as well .
Undergrad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: And what I 've done is pretty ad - hoc , um , so we might wanna change it over to something a little more standard .
PhD C: Hmm .
Grad A: You know , STM files , or XML , or something .
Undergrad D: An - and there 's interest up there ?
Grad A: What 's that ?
Undergrad D: There 's interest up there ?
Grad A: Well they {disfmarker} they certainly wanna collect more data . And so they 're applying , I think I B Is that right ? Something like that .
PhD B: I don't know .
Grad A: Um , for some more money to do more data . So we were planning to do like thirty or forty hours worth of meetings . They wanna do an additional hundred or so hours . So , they want a very large data set . Um , but of course we 're not gonna do that if we don't get money . So .
PhD B: I see .
Grad A: And I would like that just to get a disjoint speaker set and a disjoint room . I mean , one of the things Morgan and I were talking about is we 're gonna get to know this room really well ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: the {disfmarker} the acoustics of this room .
PhD B: All about that .
Undergrad D: Including the fan .
Grad A: Including the fan .
Undergrad D: Did you notice the fan difference ?
PhD B: Oh , now you 've touched the fan control , now all our data 's gonna be {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: Hear the difference ?
Grad A: Oh , it 's enormous .
PhD B: Yeah , it 's great .
Postdoc E: Oh , that 's better .
Undergrad D: Do you wanna leave it off or not ?
Postdoc E: That 's better .
Grad A: All the others have been on .
PhD B: That 's {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: Yeah , the {disfmarker} You sure ?
PhD B: Oh , yeah .
Grad A: y Absolut
PhD B: Absolutely .
Undergrad D: You {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You think that {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah .
Undergrad D: things after the f then This fan 's wired backwards by the way . Uh , I think this is high speed here .
Postdoc E: Yeah , it 's noticeable .
Undergrad D: Well , not clear .
PhD B: Well it 's {disfmarker} well like {vocalsound} " low " is mid {disfmarker} mid - scale .
Undergrad D: Maybe it {disfmarker} Maybe it isn't .
PhD B: So it could be {vocalsound} that it 's not actually wired backwards
Undergrad D: That 's right .
PhD B: it 's just that ambiguous .
Undergrad D: I was wondering also , Get ready . {comment} whether the lights made any noise .
Postdoc E: Uh - huh .
Grad A: There 's definitely {disfmarker} Yep .
PhD B: Oh , they do .
PhD C: Yeah , a little bit .
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: High pitch hum . Wow .
Undergrad D: So , {vocalsound} do our meetings in the dark with no air conditioning in the future .
Grad A: Yeah , just get a variety .
Postdoc E: I think candles would be nice if they don't make noise .
Grad A: They 're very good .
PhD B: Oh , yeah .
PhD C: It would {disfmarker} you know , it would real really mean that we should do short meetings when you {vocalsound} turn off the {disfmarker} {comment} turn off the air conditioning ,
Grad A: Carbon monoxide poisoning ?
Undergrad D: Short meetings , that 's right . Or {disfmarker} Yeah , sort of {comment} r r
PhD C: got to finish this meeting .
Undergrad D: Tear t {pause} Tear your clothing off to stay cool .
PhD C: That 's right .
Undergrad D: Actually , the a th air {disfmarker} the air conditioning 's still working , that 's just an auxiliary fan .
PhD C: Right , I see .
Grad A: So
PhD C: So , um , in addition to this issue about the UW stuff there was announced today , uh , via the LDC , um , a corpus from I believe Santa Barbara .
Postdoc E: Yeah , I saw it . I 've been watching for that corpus .
PhD C: Um , of general spoken English .
Postdoc E: Yeah . Yep .
PhD C: And I don't know exactly how they recorded it but apparently there 's a lot of different {vocalsound} styles of speech and what not .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: And {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: They had people come in to a certain degree and they {disfmarker} and they have DAT recorders .
PhD C: I see . So it is sort of far field stuff . Right ?
Postdoc E: I {disfmarker} I assume so , actually , I hadn't thought about that . Unless they added close field later on but , um , I 've listened to some of those data and I , um , I 've been {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was actually on the advisory board for when they set the project up .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Oh , OK .
PhD B: What 's it sound like ?
Postdoc E: I 'm glad to see that it got released .
Grad A: Yeah , I {disfmarker} I wish {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: So it it 's a very nice thing .
Grad A: I wish we had someone here working on adaptation
PhD C: S
Grad A: because it would nice to be able to take that stuff and adapt it to a meeting setting . You know {disfmarker}
PhD C: But it may be {disfmarker} it may be useful in {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: How do you mean {disfmarker} do you mean mechanical adaptation or {disfmarker}
Grad A: No , software , to adapt the speech recognition .
Postdoc E: OK .
PhD C: Well , what I was thinking is it may be useful in transcribing , if it 's far field stuff ,
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: right ? In doing , um , some of our first automatic speech recognition models , it may be useful to have that kind of data
Postdoc E: Great idea .
PhD C: because that 's very different than any kind of data that we have so far .
Grad A: That 's true .
Postdoc E: And {disfmarker} and their recording conditions are really clean . I mean , I 've {disfmarker} I 've heard {disfmarker} I 've listened to the data .
Grad A: Well that 's not good , right ?
PhD C: That 's {disfmarker} that 's not great .
Postdoc E: It sounds {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: Tr
Postdoc E: well but what I mean is that , um {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: But far field means great distance ? I mean {disfmarker}
Grad A: Just these .
Undergrad D: Not head mounted ?
PhD B: Yeah .
Undergrad D: And so that 's why they 're getting away with just two channels or something , or are they using multiple DATs ?
Postdoc E: Um , oh , good question and I can't ans answer it .
Grad A: Well we can look into it .
Postdoc E: I don't know .
PhD C: No , and their web {disfmarker} their web page didn't answer it either . So I 'm , I uh , was thinking that we should contact them .
Postdoc E: OK .
PhD C: So it 's {disfmarker} that 's sort of a beside - the - point point . But .
Grad A: So we can get that just with , uh , media costs ,
Undergrad D: Still a point .
PhD C: Right .
Grad A: is that right ?
PhD C: Uh , in fact we get it for free
Grad A: Oh .
PhD C: cuz they 're distributing it through the LDC .
Grad A: Great .
Postdoc E: Yep .
Grad A: So that would be {disfmarker} yeah , that would be something to look into . So .
PhD C: So , I can {disfmarker} I can actually arrange for it to arrive in short order if we 're {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: The other thing too is from {disfmarker} from a {disfmarker}
Grad A: Well , it 's silly to do unless we 're gonna have someone to work on it , so maybe we need to think about it a little bit .
PhD C: Huh .
Postdoc E: The other thing too is that their their jus their transcription format is really nice and simple in {disfmarker} in the discourse domain . But they also mentioned that they have it time aligned . I mean , I s I {disfmarker} I saw that write - up .
PhD C: Yeah . Maybe we should {disfmarker} maybe we should get a copy of it just to see what they did
PhD B: Yeah , absolutely .
Grad A: Yeah .
PhD C: so {disfmarker} so that we can {disfmarker} we can compare .
Postdoc E: It 's very nice .
Grad A: OK , why don't you go ahead and do that then Eric ?
PhD B: Absolutely .
PhD C: Alright , I 'll do that . I can't remember the name of the corpus . It 's Corps - S {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: CSAE .
PhD C: S {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Corpus of Spoken American English .
PhD C: Right , OK .
Postdoc E: Yeah , sp I 've been {disfmarker} I was really pleased to see that . I knew that they {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they had had some funding problems in completing it
PhD B: Uh - huh .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc E: but , um ,
PhD C: Well they 're {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: this is clever .
PhD C: Apparently this was like phase one
Postdoc E: Got it through the LDC .
PhD C: and the there 's still more that they 're gonna do apparently or something like that unless of course they have funding issues
Postdoc E: Great . Great .
PhD C: and then then it ma they may not do phase two but {vocalsound} from all the web documentation it looked like , " oh , this is phase one " , whatever that means .
Postdoc E: Super . Super . Great . Yeah , that {disfmarker} I mean , they 're really well respected in the linguistics d side too and the discourse area ,
PhD C: OK .
Postdoc E: and {disfmarker} So this is a very good corpus .
PhD C: But , it uh it would also maybe help be helpful for Liz , if she wanted to start working on some discourse issues , you know , looking at some of this data and then ,
Grad A: Right .
PhD C: you know {disfmarker} So when she gets here maybe that might be a good thing for her .
Grad A: Actually , that 's another thing I was thinking about is that maybe Jane should talk to Liz , to see if there are any transcription issues related to discourse that she needs to get marked .
Postdoc E: OK .
PhD C: Maybe we should have a big meeting meeting .
PhD B: Sure , of course .
Undergrad D: That would be a meeting meeting meeting ?
Grad A: A meeting meeting meeting .
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad A: Well this is the meeting about the meeting meeting meeting . So .
PhD C: Oh .
Grad A: Um .
PhD C: Right . But maybe we should , uh find some day that Liz {disfmarker} uh , Liz and Andreas seem to be around more often .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: So maybe we should find a day when they 're gonna be here and {disfmarker} and Morgan 's gonna be here , and we can meet , at least this subgroup . I mean , not necessarily have the U - dub people down .
Grad A: Well , I was even thinking that maybe we need to at least ping the U - dub {disfmarker} to see {disfmarker}
PhD C: We need {disfmarker} we need to talk to them some more .
Grad A: you know , say " this is what we 're thinking about for our transcription " , if nothing else . So , well w shall we move on and talk a little bit about transcription then ?
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Let 's .
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad A: OK , so {comment} {vocalsound} since that 's what we 're talking about . What we 're using right now is a tool , um , from this French group , called " Transcriber " that seems to work very well . Um , so it has a , uh , nice useful Tcl - TK user interface and , uh ,
Undergrad D: Thi - this is the process of converting audio to text ?
Grad A: Right .
Undergrad D: And this requires humans just like the {disfmarker} the STP stuff .
Grad A: Yes , yeah . Right , right . So we 're {disfmarker} we 're at this point only looking for word level . So all {disfmarker} all {disfmarker} so what you have to do is just identify a segment of speech in time , and then write down what was said within it , and identify the speaker . And so the things we {disfmarker} that we know {disfmarker} that I know I want are {vocalsound} the text , the start and end , and the speaker . But other people are interested in for example stress marking . And so Jane is doing primary stress , {vocalsound} um , stress marks as well . Um , and then things like repairs , and false starts , and , {vocalsound} filled pauses , and all that other sort of stuff , {vocalsound} we have to decide how much of that we wanna do .
Postdoc E: I did include a glo {comment} uh , a certain first pass . My {disfmarker} my view on it was when you have a repair {vocalsound} then , uh {disfmarker} it seems {disfmarker} I mean , we saw , there was this presentation in the {disfmarker} one of the speech group meetings about how {disfmarker}
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc E: and I think Liz has done some stuff too on that , that it , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that you get it bracketed in terms of like {disfmarker} well , if it 's parenthetical , which I know that Liz has worked on , then {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} y y you 'll have different prosodic aspects .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Hmm .
Postdoc E: And then also {vocalsound} if it 's a r if it 's a repair where they 're {disfmarker} like what I just did , {vocalsound} then it 's nice to have sort of a sense of the continuity of the utterance , the start to be to the finish . And , uh , it 's a little bit deceptive if you include the repai the pre - repair part {disfmarker} and sometimes or of it 's in the middle . Anyway , {vocalsound} so what I was doing was bracketing them to indicate that they were repairs which isn't uh , very time - consuming .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Undergrad D: I is there already some sort of plan in place for how this gonna be staffed or done ? Or is it real {disfmarker} is that what we 're talking about here ?
Grad A: Well , that 's part of the thing we 're talking about . So what we wanted to do was have Jane do basically one meeting 's worth , you know , forty minutes to an hour ,
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: and {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: As a pilot study .
Undergrad D: Yourself ?
Grad A: Yeah .
Undergrad D: It {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} this is like five times real time or ten times real time {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Yeah , as a pilot study .
Grad A: Ten times about , is {disfmarker} and so one of the things was to get an estimate of how long it would take , and then also what tools we would use . And so the next decision which has to be made actually pretty soon is how are we gonna do it ? So .
Undergrad D: And so you make Jane do the first one so then she can decide , oh , we don't need all this stuff , just the words are fine .
Postdoc E: That 's right , that 's right .
PhD B: That 's right .
Postdoc E: I wanna hear about these {disfmarker} uh , we have a g you were s continuing with the transcription conventions for s
Grad A: R right , so {disfmarker} so one {disfmarker} one option is to get linguistics grad students and undergrads to do it . And apparently that 's happened in the past . And I think that 's probably the right way to do it . Um , it will require a post pass , I mean people will have to look at it more than once to make sure that it 's been done correctly , but I just can't imagine that we 're gonna get anything that much better from a commercial one . And the commercial ones I 'm sure will be much more expensive .
Undergrad D: Can't we get Joy to do it all ?
Grad A: Yeah right .
Postdoc E: No , {vocalsound} that 's {disfmarker}
Grad A: We will just get Joy and Jane to do everything .
Undergrad D: Is tha wasn't that what she was doing before ? Yeah , that 's right .
Grad A: But , you know , that 's what we 're talking about is getting some slaves who {disfmarker} who need money
Undergrad D: Right .
Grad A: and , uh , duh , again o
Postdoc E: I object to that characterization !
PhD B: Oh , really .
Grad A: I meant Joy . And so again , I have to say " are we recording "
Postdoc E: Oh , thank you . OK .
Grad A: and then say , uh , Morgan has {disfmarker} has consistently resisted telling me how much money we have .
Undergrad D: Right . Well , the answer is zero .
Grad A: So .
Undergrad D: There 's a reason why he 's resisted .
Grad A: Well , if it 's zero then we can't do any transcription .
Undergrad D: But .
Grad A: I mean , cuz we 're {disfmarker} we {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: Right .
PhD B: I have such a hard name .
Grad A: I mean , I {disfmarker} I can't imagine us doing it ourselves . Right ?
Undergrad D: Well , we already {disfmarker} we already {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We already have a plan in place for the first meeting .
Grad A: N right .
Undergrad D: Right ? That 's {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Well th there is als Yeah , really . There is also the o other possibility which is if you can provide not money but instructional experience or some other perks , {vocalsound} you can {disfmarker} you could get people to {disfmarker} to um , to do it in exchange .
Grad A: Right .
Undergrad D: Well , i b but seriously , I {disfmarker} I mean , Morgan 's obviously in a bind over this and thing to do is just the field of dreams theory , which is we we go ahead as though there will be money at the time that we need the money .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Yeah .
Undergrad D: And that 's {disfmarker} that 's the best we can do .
Grad A: Right .
PhD B: Right .
Undergrad D: i b To not do anything until we get money is {disfmarker} is ridiculous .
Grad A: Right .
Undergrad D: We 're not gonna do any {disfmarker} get anything done if we do that .
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: So at any rate , Jane was looking into the possibility of getting students , at {disfmarker} is that right ? Talking to people about that ?
Postdoc E: I 'm afraid I haven't made any progress in that front yet .
Grad A: OK .
Postdoc E: I should 've sent email and I haven't yet .
Grad A: Yeah , right . So , uh {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: I d do {disfmarker} So until you actually {vocalsound} have a little experience with what this {disfmarker} this French thing does we don't even have {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: And I do have {disfmarker}
Grad A: She 's already done quite a bit .
Undergrad D: Oh , we have .
Postdoc E: I have {disfmarker} a bunch of hours ,
Grad A: Yeah .
Undergrad D: I 'm sorry . So that 's where you came up with the f the ten X number ?
Postdoc E: yeah .
Undergrad D: Or is that really just a guess ?
Postdoc E: Actually that 's the {disfmarker} the one people usually use , ten X .
PhD C: How fast are you ?
Postdoc E: And I haven't really calculated {disfmarker} How fast am I ?
Undergrad D: Yeah i
Postdoc E: I haven't done a s see , I 've been at the same time doing kind of a boot strapping in deciding on the transcription conventions that {disfmarker} that are {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , and {disfmarker} and stuff like , you know , how much {disfmarker}
PhD B: Mmm .
PhD C: Right .
Postdoc E: There 's some interesting human factors problems like , {vocalsound} yeah , what span of {disfmarker} of time is it useful to segment the thing into in order to uh , transcribe it the most quickly .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc E: Cuz then , you know , you get like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you get a span of five words , that 's easy .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc E: But then you have to take the time to mark it . And then there 's the issue of {vocalsound} it 's easier to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} hear it th right the first time if you 've marked it at a boundary instead of {vocalsound} somewhere in the middle ,
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc E: cuz then the word 's bisected or whatever and {disfmarker} And so I mean , I 've been sort of playing with , uh , different ways of mar cuz I 'm thinking , you know , I mean , if you could get optimal instructions you could cut back on the number of hours it would take .
PhD B: Yeah .
Undergrad D: D does uh {disfmarker} this tool you 're using is strictly {disfmarker} it doesn't do any speech recognition does it ?
Grad A: No .
Postdoc E: No , it doesn't but what a super tool . It 's a great environment .
Undergrad D: But {disfmarker} but is there anyway to {disfmarker} to wire a speech recognizer up to it and actually run it through {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: That 's an interesting idea .
Grad A: We 've {disfmarker} we 've thought about doing that
Postdoc E: Hey !
Grad A: but the recognition quality is gonna be horrendous .
Undergrad D: Well , a couple things .
PhD B: Wow .
Undergrad D: First of all the time marking you 'd get {disfmarker} you could get by a tool .
PhD B: That 's true .
Undergrad D: And so if the {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if the issue really
Postdoc E: That 's interesting .
Undergrad D: uh , I 'm think about the close caption that you see running by on {disfmarker} on live news casts .
Grad A: Most of those are done by a person .
Undergrad D: You know , yo I know {disfmarker} I know that .
Postdoc E: Yeah , I
Undergrad D: No , I understand . And {disfmarker} in a lot of them you see typos and things like that ,
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Undergrad D: but it {disfmarker} but it occurs to me that {vocalsound} it may be a lot easier to correct things than it is to do things from scratch , no matter how wonderful the tool is .
Grad A: Yeah . Yeah , we {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: But if {disfmarker} if there was a way to merge the two {disfmarker}
PhD C: Well , I mean , but sometimes it 's easier to type out something instead of going through and figuring out which is the right {disfmarker}
Grad A: I mean , we 've talked about it
Postdoc E: That 'd be fun .
Grad A: but {disfmarker}
PhD C: I mean , it depends on the error rate , right ?
Undergrad D: Well s but {disfmarker} but again the timing is for fr should be for free . The timing should be {disfmarker}
PhD C: But we don't care about the timing of the words .
Undergrad D: Well I thought you just {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} said that was a critical issue .
Grad A: We don't care about the timing of the words , just of the utterances .
Postdoc E: No , uh the {disfmarker} the boundary {disfmarker}
PhD C: We cut it s s
PhD B: We don't {disfmarker} we don't know , actually .
Postdoc E: boundary .
PhD B: We haven't decided which {disfmarker} which time we care about , and that 's kind of one of the things that you 're saying , is like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you have the option to put in more or less timing data {disfmarker} and , uh , be in the absence of more specific instructions , {vocalsound} we 're trying to figure out what the most convenient thing to do is .
Grad A: Yeah , so {disfmarker} so what {disfmarker} what she 's done so far , is sort of {disfmarker} more or less breath g not breath groups , {comment} sort of phrases , continuous phrases .
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: And so , um , that 's nice because you {disfmarker} you separate when you do an extract , you get a little silence on either end . So that seems to work really well .
Postdoc E: That 's ideal .
Grad A: Um .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc E: Although I was {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , the alternative , which I was sort of experimenting with before I ran out of time , {vocalsound} recently was , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that , you know , ev if it were like an arbitrary segment of time {disfmarker} i t pre - marked cuz it does take time to put those markings in .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc E: It 's really the i the interface is wonderful because , you know , the time it takes is you listen to it , {vocalsound} and then you press the return key . But then , you know , it 's like , {vocalsound} uh , you press the tab key to stop the flow and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and , uh , the return key to p to put in a marking of the boundary . But , you know , obviously there 's a lag between when you hear it and when you can press the return key
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc E: so it 's slightly delayed , so then you {disfmarker} you listen to it a second time and move it over to here .
Undergrad D: a
Postdoc E: So that takes time .
Undergrad D: i a
Postdoc E: Now if it could all be pre - marked at some , {vocalsound} l you know , good {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: ar but
Grad A: Hmm .
Undergrad D: Are {disfmarker} are those d delays adjustable ? Those delays adjustable ? See a lot of people who actually build stuff with human computer interfaces {vocalsound} understand that delay ,
PhD B: Yeah .
Undergrad D: and {disfmarker} and so when you {disfmarker} by the time you click it it 'll be right on because it 'll go back in time to put the {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Yeah .
PhD B: It could do that
Postdoc E: Yeah , uh , not in this case .
Grad A: We could program that pretty easily ,
PhD B: couldn't it .
Postdoc E: It has other {disfmarker}
Grad A: couldn't we Dan ? Yeah , mis Mister TCL ?
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc E: Oh , interesting point .
PhD B: I would have thought so , yeah .
Postdoc E: Ah ! {comment} Interesting point .
PhD B: Mmm .
Postdoc E: OK , that would make a difference .
Grad A: But , um {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: I mean , it 's not bad
Grad A: But , if we tried to do automatic speaker ID .
Postdoc E: but it does {disfmarker} take twice .
Grad A: I mean , cuz primarily the markings are at speaker change .
PhD B: Yeah , yeah , but {disfmarker}
Grad A: But that would be {disfmarker}
PhD B: But we 've got {disfmarker} we 've got the most channel data . We 'd have to do it from your signal . Right . I mean , we 've {disfmarker} we 've got {disfmarker} we 've got a lot of data .
Postdoc E: Oh , good point ! Ah !
Grad A: Yeah , I guess the question is how much time will it really save us versus the time to write all the tools to do it .
Postdoc E: We 've got volume .
PhD B: Right . but the chances are if we if we 're talking about collecting {vocalsound} ten or a hundred hours , which is going to take a hundred or a thousand hours to transcribe {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: If {disfmarker}
Grad A: But {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: if we can go from ten X to five X we 're doing a big {disfmarker}
Grad A: We 're gonna need {disfmarker} we 're gonna need ten to a hundred hours to train the tools , and validate the tools the do the d to {disfmarker} to do all this anyway .
PhD C: Right . So maybe {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Wow .
PhD B: If we 're just doing silence detection {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: But {disfmarker} but it op
Grad A: I knew you were gonna do that . Just saw it coming .
Postdoc E: I 'm sorry . I wish you had told me {disfmarker} wish you 'd told me .
Undergrad D: Put {disfmarker} put it on your sweater .
Postdoc E: At what part ? OK , I 'm alright .
PhD B: Um , i it seems like {disfmarker} Well , uh , I don't know . Yeah . I mean , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's maybe like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a week 's work to get to do something like this . So forty or fifty hours .
PhD C: Right .
Postdoc E: Could you get it so that with {disfmarker} so it would {disfmarker} it would detect volume on a channel and insert a marker ? And the {disfmarker} the format 's really transparent .
PhD B: Sure .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc E: It 's just a matter of {vocalsound} a very c clear {disfmarker} it 's XML , isn't it ?
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc E: It 's very {disfmarker} I mean , I looked at the {disfmarker} the file format and it 's just {disfmarker} it has a t a time {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a time indication and then something or other , and then an end time or something or other .
PhD C: So maybe {disfmarker} maybe we could try the following experiment . Take the data that you 've already transcribed
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: and {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: Is this already in the past or already in the future ?
PhD C: Already in the past .
Undergrad D: You 've already {disfmarker} you 've already done some ?
Grad A: She 's {disfmarker} she 's done about half a meeting .
PhD C: She {disfmarker} she 's done one {disfmarker} she 's one {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Yes I have .
Undergrad D: Oh - Oh , I see .
PhD C: Right .
Undergrad D: OK ,
Grad A: Right ?
PhD C: Right .
Undergrad D: good .
Grad A: About half ?
PhD C: I 'm go
Postdoc E: S I 'm not sure if it 's that 's much but anyway , enough to work with .
PhD C: Right .
PhD B: Several minutes .
PhD C: Um , and {disfmarker} and throw out the words , but keep the time markings . And then go through {disfmarker} I mean , and go through and {disfmarker} and try and re - transcribe it , given that we had perfect boundary detection .
Postdoc E: OK . Good idea .
PhD C: And see if it {disfmarker} see if it {disfmarker} see if it feels easier to you .
Postdoc E: OK .
Undergrad D: And forgetting all the words because you 've been thr
Postdoc E: Yeah , that 's what I was thinking . I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd be cheating a little bit g with familiarity effect .
PhD C: Yeah , I mean uh , that 's part of the problem is , is that what we really need is somebody else to come along .
PhD B: Well , no , you should do it {disfmarker} you should do it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Do it again from scratch and then do it again at the boundaries . So you do the whole thing three times and then we get {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc E: No . Now , there 's a plan .
Undergrad D: And then {disfmarker} then w since we need some statistics do it three more .
Postdoc E: OK .
Undergrad D: And so you 'll get {disfmarker} you 'll get down to one point two X by the time you get done .
Postdoc E: Oh , yeah . I 'll do that tomorrow . I should have it finished by the end of the day .
Undergrad D: No , but the thing is the fact that she 's {disfmarker} she 's did it before just might give a lower bound . That 's all .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD C: Right .
Undergrad D: Uh , which is fine .
Postdoc E: Exactly .
Undergrad D: It 's {disfmarker} And if the lower bound is nine X then w it 's a waste of time .
Postdoc E: Yeah .
PhD C: Right .
Postdoc E: Well , uh but there 's an extra problem which is that I didn't really keep accurate {disfmarker}
PhD B: Oh !
Postdoc E: uh , it wasn't a pure task the first time ,
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc E: so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , it 's gonna be an upper bound in {disfmarker} in that case . And it 's not really strictly comparable . So I think though it 's a good proposal to be used on a new {disfmarker} a new batch of text that I haven't yet done yet in the same meeting . Could use it on the next segment of the text .
PhD B: The point we {disfmarker} where do we get the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the oracle boundaries from ?
PhD C: Right .
PhD B: Or the boundaries .
Grad A: Yeah , one person would have to assign the boundaries and the {disfmarker} and the other person would have to {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Well , but couldn't I do it for the next {disfmarker}
PhD B: We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we could get fake {disfmarker}
Grad A: I mean that 's easy enough .
Postdoc E: Oh , I see what you mean .
Grad A: I could do that .
Postdoc E: Well , but the oracle boundaries would come from volume on a partic specific channel wouldn't they ?
Grad A: No , no .
PhD B: That would be the automatic boundaries .
PhD C: No , no , no , no . You wanna know {disfmarker} given {disfmarker} Given a perfect human segmentation , I mean , you wanna know how well {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Yeah .
PhD C: I mean , the {disfmarker} the question is , is it worth giving you the segmentation ?
Postdoc E: Oh , I see what you mean .
Grad A: I mean , that {disfmarker} that 's easy enough .
PhD C: Right .
Postdoc E: Yeah .
Grad A: I could generate the segmentation and {disfmarker} and you could do the words , and time yourself on it . So .
Undergrad D: A little double - blind - ear kind of thing .
Grad A: Yep .
Postdoc E: I see . OK .
Grad A: So it {disfmarker} that might be worth doing .
Postdoc E: That 's good . I like that .
Grad A: That would at least tell us whether it 's worth spending a week or two trying to get a tool , that will compute the segmentations .
PhD C: Right .
Undergrad D: And the thing to keep in mind too about this tool , guys is that {vocalsound} sure , you can do the computation for what we 're gonna do in the future but if {disfmarker} if UW 's talking about doing two , or three , or five times as much stuff and they can use the same tool , then obviously there 's a real multiplier there .
Grad A: Right .
Postdoc E: And the other thing too is with {disfmarker} with speaker identification , if {disfmarker} if that could handle speaker identification that 's a big deal .
PhD B: Well it w
PhD C: Right .
Undergrad D: Well , use it . Yeah , that 's why we s bought the expensive microphones .
Postdoc E: OK . Yeah , I mean , that 's a nice feature .
Grad A: Yep .
PhD B: Yeah , yeah .
Postdoc E: That 's a major {disfmarker} that 's like , one of the two things that {disfmarker}
PhD C: I mean , there 's gonna {disfmarker} there 's gonna be {disfmarker} in the meeting , like the reading group meeting that we had the other day , that 's {disfmarker} it 's gonna be a bit of a problem
PhD B: OK .
PhD C: because , like , I wasn't wearing a microphone
PhD B: Yes .
PhD C: f and there were other people that weren't wearing microphones .
Grad A: That {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: But you didn't say anything worth while anyway , right ?
Grad A: That 'll s
PhD B: Right .
PhD C: That 's pretty much true
Postdoc E: Yeah .
Grad A: it might save ninety percent of the work though .
PhD C: but {disfmarker} but , yes .
Grad A: So .
PhD B: So I {disfmarker} I need to {disfmarker} we need to look at what {disfmarker} what the final output is but it seems like {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} it doesn't {disfmarker} it seems like it 's not really not that hard to have an automatic tool to generate {vocalsound} the phrase marks , and the speaker , and speaker identity without putting in the words .
Grad A: Yeah . I 've already become pretty familiar with the format ,
Postdoc E: That 'd be so great .
Grad A: so it would be easy .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc E: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad A: If you 'd tell me where it is , huh ?
Postdoc E: We didn't finish the {disfmarker} the part of work already completed on this , did we ? I mean , you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you talked a little bit about the transcription conventions ,
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc E: and , I guess you 've mentioned in your progress report , or status report , that you had written a script to convert it into {disfmarker} So , {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} when I {disfmarker} i the {disfmarker} it 's quickest for me in terms of {vocalsound} the transcription part {vocalsound} to say {vocalsound} something like , you know , if {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if Adam spoke to , um {disfmarker} to just say , " A colon " , Like who could be , you know , I mean at the beginning of the line .
PhD B: Mmm .
Postdoc E: and E colon {vocalsound} instead of entering the interface for speaker identification and clicking on the thing , uh , indicating the speaker ID . So , and then he has a script that will convert it into the {disfmarker} the thing that , uh , would indicate speaker ID .
Grad A: It 's pretty cute .
Postdoc E: If that 's clear .
PhD C: OK .
Grad A: But at any rate . So , um ,
Postdoc E: It 's Perl script .
Grad A: Right . So {disfmarker} so I think the guess at ten X seems to be pretty standard . Everyone {disfmarker} more or less everyone you talk to says about ten times for hard technical transcription .
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .
Undergrad D: Using wh using stone age
Postdoc E: Yeah .
Undergrad D: using stone age tools .
Postdoc E: That 's right .
Grad A: Using {disfmarker} using stone age tools . I mean , I looked at Cyber Transcriber
Postdoc E: Yeah , well that 's true , but {disfmarker}
Grad A: which is a service that you send an audio file , they do a first - pass speech recognition . And then they {disfmarker} they do a clean up . But it 's gonna be horrible . They 're never gonna be able to do a meeting like this .
PhD B: No .
Undergrad D: Right .
Postdoc E: What {disfmarker} i just approximately , what did you find out in terms of price or {disfmarker} or whatever ?
Grad A: Well , for Cyber Transcriber they don't quote a price . They want you to call and {disfmarker} and talk . So for other services , um , they were about thirty dollars an hour .
Postdoc E: Of {disfmarker} of tape ?
Grad A: Thirty {disfmarker} So , yeah .
Postdoc E: Or of action ?
Grad A: For thirty dollars an hour for {disfmarker} of their work .
Postdoc E: OK . OK . Oh , of their {disfmarker}
Grad A: So {disfmarker} so if it 's ten times it 's three hundred dollars an hour .
Postdoc E: Oh !
PhD C: So that 's three {disfmarker} that 's three hours .
Postdoc E: OK .
Undergrad D: D did you talk to anybody that does closed captioning for {disfmarker} for uh , TV ?
PhD C: Right .
Grad A: No .
Undergrad D: Cuz they a usually at the end of the show they 'll tell what the name of the company is , the captioning company that 's doing it .
Grad A: Mm - hmm . Yeah , so {disfmarker} so my {disfmarker} my search was pretty cursory .
Postdoc E: Interesting .
Grad A: It was just a net search . And , uh , so it was only people who have web pages and are doing stuff through that .
Undergrad D: Well , you know , the {disfmarker} the thing {disfmarker} the thing about this is thinking kind of , maybe a little more globally than I should here but {comment} {vocalsound} that really this could be a big contribution we could make . Uh , I mean , we 've been through the STP thing , we know what it {disfmarker} what it 's like to {disfmarker} to manage the {disfmarker} manage the process , and admittedly they might have been looking for more detail than what we 're looking for here but {vocalsound} it was a {disfmarker} it was a big hassle , right ?
PhD B: Yeah .
Undergrad D: I mean , uh , you know , they {disfmarker} they constantly could 've reminding people and going over it . And clearly some new stuff needs to be done here . And it 's {disfmarker} it 's only {vocalsound} our time , where " our " of course includes Dan , {vocalsound} Dan and you guys . It doesn't include me at all . Uh . j Just seems like {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah , I mean I don't know if we 'd be able to do any thing f to help STP type problems . But certainly for this problem we can do a lot better than {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: Bec Why ? Because they wanted a lot more detail ?
Grad A: Right .
PhD B: No . Because they had {disfmarker} because they only had two speakers , right ? I mean , the {disfmarker} the segmentation problem is {disfmarker}
Grad A: Trivial .
Undergrad D: Only had two .
Grad A: They had two speakers over the telephone .
Undergrad D: Oh , I see . So what took them so long ?
Grad A: Um , mostly because they were doing much lower level time .
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: So they were doing phone and syllable transcription , as well as , uh , word transcription .
Undergrad D: Right . Right .
PhD C: Right .
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: And so we 're {disfmarker} w we decided early on that we were not gonna do that .
Undergrad D: I see . But there 's still the same issue of managing the process , of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} of reviewing and keeping the files straight , and all this stuff , that {disfmarker} which is clearly a hassle .
Grad A: Yep .
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: Right . And so {disfmarker} so what I 'm saying is that if we hire an external service I think we can expect three hundred dollars an hour .
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: I think that 's the ball park . There were several different companies that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and the {disfmarker} the range was very tight for technical documents . Twenty - eight to thirty - two dollars an hour .
PhD C: And who who knows if they 're gonna be able to m manage multal multiple channel data ?
PhD B: Yeah , they won't .
Grad A: They won't .
PhD B: They w they 'll refuse to do it .
Grad A: We 'll have to mix them .
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD C: Right .
PhD B: No , but I mean , they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they won't {disfmarker} they won't {disfmarker} they will refuse to transcribe this kind of material .
Postdoc E: And then there 's the problem also that {disfmarker}
PhD B: That 's not what they 're d quoting for , right ?
Grad A: Yes , it is .
Undergrad D: Well , they might {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they might quote it {disfmarker}
PhD B: For quoting meetings ?
Grad A: Sev - several of them say that they 'll do meetings , and conferences , and s and so on . None of them specifically said that they would do speaker ID , or speaker change mark .
PhD B: Wow . Yeah .
Grad A: They all just said transcription .
Undergrad D: Th - th the th there may be just multiplier for five people costs twice as much and for ten people co {comment} Something like that .
PhD B: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Grad A: Well , the {disfmarker} the way it worked is it {disfmarker} it was scaled . So what they had is , {vocalsound} if it 's an easy task it costs twenty - four dollars an hour and it will take maybe five or six times real time . And what they said is for the hardest tasks , bad acoustics , meeting settings , it 's thirty - two dollars an hour and it takes about ten times real time . So I think that we can count on that being about what they would do .
PhD B: I see . Yeah .
Grad A: It would probably be a little more
PhD B: Right .
Postdoc E: Yeah .
Grad A: because we 're gonna want them to do speaker marking .
Undergrad D: A lot of companies I 've worked for y the , uh {disfmarker} the person leading the meeting , the executive or whatever , would sort of go around the room and {disfmarker} and mentally calculate h how many dollars per hour this meeting was costing ,
Grad A: So .
Undergrad D: right ? In university {vocalsound} atmosphere you get a little different thing . But you know , it 's a lot like , " he 's worth fifty an hour , he 's worth {disfmarker} " And so he so here we 're thinking , " well let 's see , if the meeting goes another hour it 's going to be another thousand dollars . " You know ? It 's {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yep , we have to have a short meeting .
Undergrad D: So ch {vocalsound} So every everybody ta Talk really fast .
Postdoc E: That 's very interesting .
Grad A: Stop talking !
PhD B: Yeah .
Undergrad D: Let 's get it over with .
Postdoc E: Talk {vocalsound} slowly but with few words .
Grad A: And clearly .
PhD B: That 's right .
Undergrad D: And only talk when you 're pointed to .
Postdoc E: There you go .
Grad A: Content words only .
Postdoc E: We could have some telegraphic meetings . That might be interesting .
PhD B: Yeah , it 'd be cheap .
Undergrad D:
PhD B: Cheap to transcribe .
Grad A: So . But at any rate , so we {disfmarker} we have a ballpark on how much it would cost if we send it out .
Undergrad D: And we 're talking about do doing how many hours worth of meetings ?
Grad A: Thirty or forty .
Undergrad D: So thirty or forty thousand dollars .
PhD B: Well , for ten thousand dollars .
Postdoc E: Yeah .
PhD C: So , meanwhile {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: Oh . What {disfmarker} Well , it was thirty times {disfmarker}
PhD B: Three hundred .
Grad A: Three hundred dollars an hour .
Undergrad D: Oh , I 'm sorry , three hundred .
Grad A: Right .
Undergrad D: Right , I w got an extra factor of three there .
PhD C: So it 's thirty dollars an hour , essentially , right ?
Undergrad D: Yeah .
PhD C: But we can pay a graduate student seven dollars an hour . And the question is what 's the difference {disfmarker}
PhD B: How {disfmarker} how much lower are they ?
PhD C: or ei eight dollars . What {disfmarker} do you know what the going rate is ? It 's {disfmarker} it 's {vocalsound} on the order of eight to ten .
Postdoc E: I think uh that would give us a {disfmarker} a good {disfmarker} good estimate .
PhD C: I think . But I 'm not sure .
Postdoc E: I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd say {disfmarker}
PhD B: Ten .
Postdoc E: yeah , I was gonna say eight {disfmarker} you 'd say ten ?
PhD C: Let 's say ten .
PhD B: Yeah , give them a break .
PhD C: Cuz it 's easier .
Undergrad D: The - these are not for engineering graduate students , right ?
Grad A: Right , these are linguistics grad students . Six .
PhD C: Yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} I don't know what the {disfmarker} I don't know what the standard {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: That 's right .
PhD C: but there is a standard pay scale
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: I just don't know what it is .
Postdoc E: Yeah , that 's right . That 's right .
PhD C: Um , so that means that even if it takes them thirty times real time it 's cheaper to {disfmarker} to do graduate students .
Postdoc E: And there 's another aspect too .
Grad A: I mean , that 's why I said originally , that I couldn't imagine sending it out 's gonna be cheaper .
PhD B: No , it isn't . So .
Postdoc E: The other thing too is that , uh , if they were linguistics they 'd be {disfmarker} you know , in terms of like the post editing , i uh {disfmarker} tu uh content wise they might be easier to handle cuz they might get it more right the first time .
Grad A: And also we would have control of {disfmarker} I mean , we could give them feedback . Whereas if we do a service it 's gonna be limited amount .
PhD B: Yep , yep .
Postdoc E: Mmm .
Grad A: I mean , we can't tell them , you know , " for this meeting we really wanna mark stress
Postdoc E: Good point .
PhD B: Yep .
Grad A: and for this meeting we want {disfmarker} "
PhD B: No .
Postdoc E: Good point .
Grad A: And {disfmarker} and they 're not gonna provide {disfmarker} they 're not gonna provide stress , they 're not gonna re provide repairs , they 're not gonna {vocalsound} provide {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they may or may not provide speaker ID . So that we would have to do our own tools to do that . So {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: I just {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah .
Undergrad D: Just hypoth hypothetically assuming that {disfmarker} that we go ahead and ended up using graduate students . I who {disfmarker} who 's the person in charge ? Who 's gonna be the Steve here ?
Grad A: I hope it 's Jane .
Undergrad D: You ?
Grad A: Is that alright ?
Postdoc E: Oh , interesting . Um , now would this involve some manner of uh , monetary compensation or would I be the voluntary , uh , coordinator of multiple transcribers for checking ?
Grad A: Um , I would imagine there would be some monetary involved but we 'd have to talk to Morgan about it .
PhD B: Yeah , out of {disfmarker} out of Adam 's pocket .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc E: OK .
Undergrad D: You know , it just means you have to stop working for Dave . See ?
Postdoc E: Oh ,
Undergrad D: That 's why Dave should have been here .
Postdoc E: I don't wanna stop working for Dave .
Undergrad D: To pr protect his people .
Grad A: Well , I would like you to do it because you have a lot more experience than I do ,
Postdoc E: Oh , cool . Yeah .
Grad A: but if {disfmarker} if that 's not feasible , I will do it with you as an advisor .
Postdoc E: Uh - huh .
Undergrad D: W we 'd like you to do it and we 'd like to pay you .
Postdoc E: We 'll see .
PhD B: Yeah .
Undergrad D: Not being Morgan though , it 's {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: OK .
PhD C: Right .
Postdoc E: Oh , I see .
PhD B: We 'd like to . Unfortunately {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Well {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: Yeah .
Postdoc E: Yeah .
Grad A: Yeah , six dollars an hour .
Postdoc E: Yeah , I see .
PhD C: That 's a {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: And {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: OK . Boy , if I wanted to increase my income I could start doing the transcribing again .
PhD B: Yeah , that 's right . Yeah .
Undergrad D: an an an and be and be sure and say , would you like fries with that when you 're thinking about your pay scale .
Postdoc E: I see . Good . Yeah , no , that {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would be interested in that {disfmarker} in becoming involved in the project in some aspect like that {disfmarker}
Grad A: OK . More .
Postdoc E: more . Yeah . Uh - huh . Yeah .
Grad A: Um , any more on transcript we wanna talk about ?
PhD B: What s so what are you {disfmarker} so you 've done some portion of the first meeting . And what 's your plan ?
Postdoc E: Yes . Mm - hmm .
PhD B: To carry on doing it ?
Postdoc E: What {disfmarker} Well , you know what I thought was right now we have p So I gave him the proposal for the transcription conventions . He made his , uh , suggestion of improvement .
PhD B: OK .
Postdoc E: The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} It 's a good suggestion . So as far as I 'm concerned those transcription conventions are fixed right now . And so my next plan would be {disfmarker}
PhD B: What {disfmarker} what do they {disfmarker} what do they cover ?
Postdoc E: They 're very minimal . So , {vocalsound} it would be good to {disfmarker} just to summarize that . So , um , {vocalsound} one of them is the idea of how to indicate speaker change ,
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc E: and this is a way which meshes well with {disfmarker} with , uh , making it {vocalsound} so that , uh , you know , on the {disfmarker} At the {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc E: Boy , it 's such a nice interface . When you {disfmarker} when you get the , um {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you get the speech signal you also get {vocalsound} down beneath it , {vocalsound} an indication of , {vocalsound} uh , if you have two speakers overlapping in a s in a single segment , you see them {vocalsound} one {disfmarker} displayed one above each other . And then at the same time {vocalsound} the top s part of the screen is the actual verbatim thing . You can clip {disfmarker} click on individual utterances and it 'll take you immediately to that part of the speech signal , and play it for you . And you can , eh you can work pretty well between those two {disfmarker} these two things .
Undergrad D: Is there a limit to the number of speakers ?
Grad A: Um , the user interface only allows two . And so if {disfmarker} if you 're using their interface to specify overlapping speakers you can only do two .
PhD B: Hmm .
Grad A: But my script can handle any . And their save format can handle any . And so , um , using this {disfmarker} the convention that Jane and I have discussed , you can have as many overlapping speakers as you want .
Undergrad D: Do y is this a , uh , university project ?
PhD B: Yeah .
Undergrad D: Th - this is the French software , right ?
Grad A: Yeah , French .
PhD B: Yeah , yeah ,
Grad A: Yeah . And they 're {disfmarker} they 've been quite responsive .
PhD B: their academic .
Undergrad D: eh
Grad A: I 've been exchanging emails on various issues .
PhD B: Oh , really ?
Undergrad D: Uh , did you ask them to change the interface for more speakers ?
Postdoc E: Oh .
Grad A: Yes , and they said that 's on {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the works for the next version .
Undergrad D: Good .
PhD C: Oh , so multi multichannels .
Undergrad D: Good .
Grad A: Multichannels was also {disfmarker} Well , they said they wanted to do it but that the code is really very organized around single channels . So I think that 's n unlikely to ha happen .
PhD C: I see . OK .
Undergrad D: Do - do you know what they 're using it for ? Why 'd they develop it ?
Grad A: For this exact task ?
PhD C: For transcription .
Undergrad D: Are they linguists ?
PhD C: It 's {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: But I mean , are they {disfmarker} are they linguists or are they speech recognition people ?
Grad A: I think they 're linguists .
Postdoc E: Ho
PhD B: Linguists .
Postdoc E: Hmm .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD C: They 're {disfmarker} they have some connection to the LDC cuz the LDC has been advising them on this process , the Linguistic Data Consortium . Um ,
Undergrad D: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: so {disfmarker} but a apart from that .
Grad A: It 's also {disfmarker} All the source is available .
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad A: So .
PhD C: Right .
Grad A: If you {disfmarker} if you speak TCLTK .
Undergrad D: Great . Mm - hmm .
Grad A: And they have {disfmarker} they 've actually asked if we are willing to do any development and I said , well , maybe .
PhD C: Right .
Undergrad D: Good .
Grad A: So if we want {disfmarker} if we did {disfmarker} if we did something like programmed in a delay , which actually I think is a great idea , um , I 'm sure they would want that incorporated back in .
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm . Yeah , I do too .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Undergrad D: Their pre pre - lay .
PhD B: Pre - lay .
Grad A: Way .
Postdoc E: Pre - lay . Well , and they 've thought about things . You know , I mean , they {disfmarker} they do have {disfmarker} So you have {disfmarker} when you {disfmarker} when you play it back , um , it 's {disfmarker} it is useful to have , uh , a {disfmarker} a break mark to {disfmarker} se segment it . But it wouldn't be strictly necessary cuz you can use the {disfmarker} uh , the tabbed key to toggle {vocalsound} the sound on and off . I mean , it 'll stop the s speech you know if you if you press a tab . And , um . And so , uh , that 's a nice feature . And then also once you 've put a break in then you have the option of {vocalsound} cycling through the unit . You could do it like multiply until you get {comment} crazy and decide to stop cycling through that unit .
Undergrad D: Loop it ? Yo - you n you know , there 's al also the {disfmarker} the user interface that 's missing .
Postdoc E: Or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: It 's missing from all of our offices , and that is some sort of analog input for something like this . It 's what audio people actually use of course . It 's something that wh {vocalsound} when you move your hand further , the sound goes faster past it , like fast forward . You know , like a joy stick or a {disfmarker} uh , you could wire a mouse or trackball to do something like that .
Postdoc E: Why , that 's {disfmarker} That 's not something I wanted to have happen .
Undergrad D: No , but I 'm saying if this is what professionals who actually do this kind of thing for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} m for video or for audio {disfmarker} {vocalsound} where you {disfmarker} you need to do this ,
Postdoc E: I see . Uh - huh .
Undergrad D: and so you get very good at sort of jostling back and forth , rather than hitting tab , and backspace , and carriage return , and enter , and things like that .
PhD B: Mmm . Mmm .
Postdoc E: Uh - huh .
Grad A: Yeah , we talked about things like foot pedals and other analog {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Undergrad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: So {vocalsound} I mean , tho those are things we could do but I {disfmarker} I just don't know how much it 's worth doing . I mean we 're just gonna have {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: Ye - Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
Undergrad D: Right .
Postdoc E: Yeah , I {disfmarker} I agree . They {disfmarker} they have several options . So , uh , you know , I mentioned the looping option . Another option is it 'll pause when it reaches the end of the boundary . And then to get to the next boundary you just press tab
Grad A: Hmm .
Postdoc E: and it goes on to the next unit .
Undergrad D: Cool .
Postdoc E: I mean , it 's very nicely thought out .
PhD C: Hmm .
Postdoc E: They thought about {disfmarker} and also it 'll {vocalsound} go around the c the , uh , I wanna say cursor but I 'm not sure if that 's the right thing .
Grad A: Point , whatever .
Postdoc E: Anyway , you can {disfmarker} so they thought about different ways of having windows that you c uh work within ,
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc E: and {disfmarker} But so in terms of the con the conventions , then , {vocalsound} uh , basically , {vocalsound} uh , it 's strictly orthographic which means with some w provisions for , uh , w uh , {vocalsound} colloquial forms . So if a person said , " cuz " instead of " because " then I put a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} an apostrophe at the beginning of the word and then in {disfmarker} in double ang angle brackets what the full lexical item would be .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc E: And this could be {vocalsound} something that was handled by a table or something but I think {vocalsound} to have a convention marking it as a non - standard or wha I don't mean standard {disfmarker} but a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a non {vocalsound} uh , ortho orthographic , uh , whatever .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Non - canonical .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc E: " Gonna " or " wanna " , you know , the same thing . And {disfmarker} and there would be limits to how much refinement you want in indicating something as non - standard pres pronunciation .
PhD C: How are you handling backchannels ?
Postdoc E: Backchannels ?
Grad A: Comments .
Postdoc E: Um , you know {disfmarker} oh , yes , there was some {disfmarker} in my view , when i when you 've got it densely overlapping , um , I didn't worry about {disfmarker} I didn't worry about s specific start times .
PhD C: What do you mean by du
Postdoc E: I sort of thought that this is not gonna be {comment} easily processed anyway and {vocalsound} maybe I shouldn't spend too much time getting exactly when the person said {vocalsound} " no " , or , you know , uh , i " immediate " .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc E: And instead just sort of rendered " within this time slot , {vocalsound} there were two people speaking during part of it
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc E: and {vocalsound} if you want more detail , figure it out for yourself " ,
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Well , I think what {disfmarker} w what Eric was talking about was channels other than the direct speech ,
PhD C: I see .
Postdoc E: was sort of the way I felt @ @ {disfmarker}
Grad A: right ?
PhD C: Well , yeah , what I mean is wh I mean , when somebody says " uh - huh " in the middle of , uh , a @ @ {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yep .
Postdoc E: Uh - huh . That happened very seldom .
PhD C: Oh , cuz I was {disfmarker} I was listening to {disfmarker} Dan was agreeing a lot to things that you were saying as you were talking .
Undergrad D: Uh - huh . Uh - huh .
Postdoc E: Oh , well , thank you Dan .
PhD C: So .
Postdoc E: Appreciate it . Well , if it {disfmarker} if there was a word like " right " , you know , then I wou I would indicate {vocalsound} that it happened within the same tem time frame
Grad A: Yeah , there 's an overlapping mark .
PhD C: And {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc E: but wouldn't say exactly when it happened .
Undergrad D: I 'll be right back .
PhD B: I transcribed a minute of this stuff
PhD C: I see .
PhD B: and there was a lot of overlapping . It was {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: A lot of overlapping , yeah .
Grad A: Well there there 's a lot of overlapping at the beginning and end .
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad A: Huge amounts .
PhD B: It was at the beginning .
Grad A: Um , when {disfmarker} when no one i when we 're not actually in the meeting , {vocalsound} and we 're all sort of separated , and {disfmarker} and doing things . But even during the meeting there 's a lot of overlap but it {disfmarker} it 's marked pretty clearly . Um , some of the backchannel stuff Jane had some comments {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but I think a lot of them were because you were at the meeting . And so I think that {disfmarker} that often {disfmarker} {vocalsound} often you can't tell .
Postdoc E: Yeah , well that 's true . That 's another issue .
Grad A: I mean , Jane had {disfmarker} had comments like uh , to {disfmarker} who {disfmarker} who the person was speaking to .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc E: Yeah .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc E: Only when it was otherwise gonna be puzzling
Grad A: Yeah .
Postdoc E: because he was in the other room talking .
Grad A: Yeah , but someone who , uh , {vocalsound} was just the transcriber wouldn't have known that .
Postdoc E: Yeah .
Grad A: Or when Dan said , " I wa I wasn't talking to you " .
PhD C: Right .
Postdoc E: That 's true . I know .
Undergrad D: So you take a bathroom break in the middle and {disfmarker} and keep your head mount
Grad A: You have to turn off your mike .
PhD B: Yeah .
Undergrad D: Oh , you do ?
PhD B: You don't have to .
Postdoc E: Well he was so {disfmarker} so he was checking the meter levels and {disfmarker} and we were handling things while he was labeling the {disfmarker} the whatever it was , the PDA ?
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Uh - huh .
Postdoc E: And {disfmarker} and so he was {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} sort of {disfmarker} you were sort of talking {disfmarker} you know , so I was saying , like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} " and I could label this one left . Right ? " And he {disfmarker} and he said , " I don't see anything " . And he said {disfmarker} {vocalsound} he said , {vocalsound} " I wasn't talking to you " . Or {disfmarker} it wasn't {disfmarker} it didn't sound quite that rude .
Grad A: But {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: But really , no , uh {disfmarker} w you know in the context if you know he can't hear what he 's saying {disfmarker}
Grad A: but when you w when you listen to it {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: he he It was a lot funnier if you were there though .
Postdoc E: Uh , yeah ,
Grad A: Well what {disfmarker} what it {disfmarker} what happens is if you 're a transcriber listening to it it sounds like Dan is just being a total {disfmarker} {vocalsound} totally impolite .
Postdoc E: I know . Well , you 'll see . You can listen to it . Oh , I thought it was you who was . No , well , but you were {disfmarker} you were asking off the wall questions .
Grad A: Um {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} but if you knew that {disfmarker} that I wasn't actually in the room , and that Dan wasn't talking to me , it {disfmarker} it became OK . So .
PhD B: I see .
Undergrad D: So th
Postdoc E: And that 's w that 's where I added comments .
PhD C: Hmm .
Postdoc E: The rest of the time I didn't bother with who was talking to who but {disfmarker} but this was unusual circum circumstance .
Undergrad D: So this is {disfmarker} this is gonna go on the meeting meeting transcriber bloopers tape , right ?
Grad A: Yes . Right .
Postdoc E: Well and part of it was funny , uh {disfmarker} reason was because it was a mixed signal so you couldn't get any clues from volume {vocalsound} that , you know , he was really far away from this conversation .
Grad A: Stereo . Yeah .
Postdoc E: You couldn't do that symmetrically in any case .
PhD B: No .
Grad A: Oh . I should rewrite the mix tool to put half the people in one channel and half in the other . I have a {pause} auto - gain - mixer tool that mixes all the head mounted microphones into one signal
Postdoc E: That 's a good idea .
Undergrad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: and that seems to work really well for the uh {pause} transcribers .
Undergrad D: Great .
Postdoc E: But I thought it would be {disfmarker} you know , I {disfmarker} I didn't wanna add more contextual comments than were needed but that , it seemed to me , clarified that the con what was going on . And , uh {disfmarker} OK ,
PhD C: So , s
Postdoc E: so normalization {disfmarker}
PhD C: I was just gonna ask , uh , so I just wanted to c sort of finish off the question I had about backchannels ,
PhD B: Mmm .
PhD C: if that 's OK ,
Postdoc E: Yeah . OK .
PhD C: which {disfmarker} which was , so say somebody 's talking for a while
Postdoc E: Yeah .
PhD C: and somebody goes " mm - hmm " in the middle of it , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and what not , does the conversation come out from the {disfmarker} or the person who 's speaking for the long time as one segment and then there 's this little tiny segment {vocalsound} of this other speaker or does it {disfmarker} does the fact that there 's a backchannel split the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} it in two .
Postdoc E: OK , my {disfmarker} my focus was to try and maintain conten con content continuity and , uh , to keep it within what he was saying . Like {vocalsound} I wouldn't say breath groups but prosodic or intonational groups as much as possible . So {vocalsound} if someone said " mm - hmm " in the middle of a {disfmarker} of someone 's , {vocalsound} uh , uh , intonational contour , {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I indicated it as , like what you just did .
PhD C: OK .
Postdoc E: then I indicated it as a segment which contained {vocalsound} @ @ {comment} this utterance plus an overlap .
PhD B: But that 's {disfmarker} but there 's only one {disfmarker} there 's only one time boundary for both speakers ,
PhD C: OK .
PhD B: right ?
Postdoc E: Yeah , that 's right . And you know , it could be made more precise than that
PhD C: I see ,
Postdoc E: but I just thought {disfmarker}
PhD C: I see , OK .
Postdoc E: Yeah .
PhD C: Right .
Undergrad D: I think whenever we use these speech words we should always {vocalsound} do the thing like you 're talking about , accent ,
Postdoc E: Oh , I see what you mean . And then {pause} " hesitation " . Yeah . OK , and so then , uh , in terms of like words like " uh " and " um " I just wrote them because I figured there 's a limited number , and I keep them to a {disfmarker} uh , limited set because it didn't matter if it was " mmm " or " um " , {comment} {vocalsound} you know , versus " um " . So I just always wrote it as U M .
PhD B: OK .
Postdoc E: And " uh - huh " , you know , " UHUH . " I mean , like a s set of like five . But in any case {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I didn't mark those .
PhD B: No .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: " Uh - huh " is " U H H U H . " H U H . "
Postdoc E: I 'd be happy with that . That 'd be fine . It 'd be good to have that in the {disfmarker} in the conventions , what 's to be used .
PhD C: Huh - uh .
Grad A: I {disfmarker} I did notice that there were some segments that had pauses on the beginning and end . We should probably mark areas that have no speakers as no speaker . Then , so question mark colon is fine for that .
Postdoc E: Yeah , that 's a fine idea . That 's a fine idea .
Grad A: Just say silence .
Undergrad D: Well , what 's that mean ?
Postdoc E: Yeah , OK . Yeah .
Undergrad D: You mean re
Grad A: No one 's talking .
Undergrad D: ye s Oh . Silence all around .
Grad A: Yep .
Undergrad D: Yep .
PhD B: We have to mark those ?
Postdoc E: So I had {disfmarker}
PhD B: Don't they {disfmarker} d can't we just leave them unmarked ?
Postdoc E: I d Well , you see , that 's possible too .
Grad A: Well , I wanna leave the marked {disfmarker} I don't want them to be part of another utterance . So you just {disfmarker} you need to have the boundary at the start and the end .
PhD B: OK . Sure .
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm . Now that 's refinement that , uh , maybe it could be handled by part of the {disfmarker} part of the script or something more {disfmarker}
PhD B: Uh , yeah , it seems like {disfmarker} it seems like the , uh , tran the transcription problem would be very different if we had these {vocalsound} automatic speaker detection turn placing things . Because suddenly {disfmarker} I mean , I don't know , actually it sounds like there might be a problem {vocalsound} putting it into the software if the software only handles two parallel channels . But assuming we can get around that somehow .
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm . Well you were saying , I think it can read {disfmarker}
Grad A: It can read and write as many as you want , it 's just that it
Postdoc E: Uh - huh .
PhD B: But what if you wanna edit it ? Right ? I mean , the point is we 're gonna generate {vocalsound} this transcript with five {disfmarker} five tracks in it , but with no words . Someone 's gonna have to go in and type in the words . Um , and if there are five {disfmarker} five people speaking at once ,
Grad A: Right , i it 's {disfmarker} I didn't explain it well . If we use the {disfmarker} the little {disfmarker} the conventions that Jane has established , I have a script that will convert from that convention to their saved convention .
PhD B: Oh , yeah . Yes .
Postdoc E: Which allows five .
Grad A: Right .
Postdoc E: And it can be m edited after the fact ,
Grad A: Yes .
Postdoc E: can't it also ? But their {disfmarker} but their format , if you wanted to in indicate the speakers right there instead of doing it through this indirect route , {vocalsound} then i they {disfmarker} a c window comes up and it only allows you to enter two speakers .
PhD B: Yeah . Right .
Undergrad D: But you 're saying that by the time you call it back in to {disfmarker} from their saved format it opens up a window with window with five speakers ?
Postdoc E: So . But .
Grad A: Right .
Undergrad D: Oh ! That is sort of {pause} f
Grad A: It 's just user interface .
Undergrad D: They didn't quite go the whole {disfmarker}
Grad A: So i it 's {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: Yeah , they didn't go the whole route ,
Grad A: the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the whole saved form the saved format and the internal format , all that stuff , handles multiple speakers .
Undergrad D: did they ? They just {disfmarker}
Grad A: It 's just there 's no user interface for specifying multiple {disfmarker} any more than two .
Undergrad D: Right . So your {disfmarker} your script solves {disfmarker} Doesn't it solve all our problems ,
Postdoc E: And that {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yep .
Undergrad D: cuz we 're always gonna wanna go through this preprocessing {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yep .
Undergrad D: uh , assuming it works .
Grad A: Yep .
Postdoc E: And that works nicely cuz this so quick to enter . So I wouldn't wanna do it through the interface anyway adding which {disfmarker} worry who the speaker was .
Grad A: Yep .
Undergrad D: I see . Right . Good .
Postdoc E: And then , uh , let 's see what else . Oh , yes , I {disfmarker} I wanted to have {disfmarker} So sometimes a pers I {disfmarker} uh in terms of like the continuity of thought {vocalsound} for transcriptions , it 's {disfmarker} i it isn't just words coming out , it 's like there 's some purpose for an utterance . And {vocalsound} sometimes someone will {vocalsound} do a backchannel in the middle of it but you wanna show that it 's continued at a later point . So I have {disfmarker} I have a convention of putting like a dash {vocalsound} arrow just to indicate that this person 's utterance continues . And then when it uh , catches back up again then there 's an arrow dash , and then you have the opposite direction {vocalsound} to indicate continuation of ones own utterance versus , um , sometimes {vocalsound} we had the situation which is {disfmarker} you know , which you {disfmarker} which you get in conversations , {comment} of someone continuing someone else 's utterance ,
PhD B: Mmm .
Postdoc E: and in that case I did a tilde arrow versus a arrow tilde , {vocalsound} to indicate that it was continuation but it wasn't {disfmarker} Oh , I guess I did {vocalsound} equal arrow for the {disfmarker} for the own {disfmarker} for yourself things
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc E: cuz it 's {disfmarker} the speakers the same . And then tilde arrow if it was a different {disfmarker} if a different speaker , uh , con continuation .
PhD B: Mmm .
Grad A: Oh .
Postdoc E: But just , you know , the arrows showing continuation of a thought .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc E: And then you could track whether it was the same speaker or not by knowing {disfmarker} you know , at the end of this unit you 'd know what happened later . And that was like this person continued
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc E: and you 'd be able to {vocalsound} look for the continuation .
Grad A: So
PhD B: But the only time that becomes ambiguous is if you have two speakers . Like , if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If you only have one person , if you only have one thought that 's continuing across a particular time boundary , you just need {vocalsound} one arrow at each end , and if it 's picked up by a different speaker , it 's picked up by a different speaker . The time it becomes ambiguous if you have more than one speaker and that {disfmarker} and they sort of swap . I guess if you have more than one thread going , then you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} then you need to know whether they were swapped or not .
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD C: How often does that happen do you think ?
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Hopefully not very much .
Postdoc E: Yeah , I didn't use it very often .
Grad A: Especially for meetings . I mean , if i if you were just recording someone 's day , it would be impossible . You know ,
Undergrad D: It l ou
Grad A: if you were trying to do a remembrance agent . But I think for meetings it 's probably alright .
PhD C: Hmm .
Grad A: But , a lot of these issues , I think that for {disfmarker} uh , from my point of view , where I just wanna do speech recognition and information retrieval , it doesn't really matter .
PhD B: Sure .
Grad A: But other people have other interests .
PhD B: I know .
Grad A: So .
PhD B: But it {disfmarker} it does feel {disfmarker} it does feel like it 's really in there . I {disfmarker} you know I did this {disfmarker} I did this transcription and I marked that , I marked it with ellipsis because it seemed like there was a difference . It 's something you wanted to indicate that it {disfmarker} that I {disfmarker} this was the end of the phrase , this was the end of {vocalsound} that particular transcript , but it was continued later .
Grad A: Right .
PhD B: And I picked up with an ellipsis .
Postdoc E: Excellent . Yeah .
PhD B: I didn't have the equal , not equal thing .
Postdoc E: Yeah . Well that 's {disfmarker} you know , I mean {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} that 's why I didn't {comment} I didn't do it n {vocalsound} I mean , that 's why I thought about it , and {disfmarker} and re - ev
PhD B: Yeah , yeah .
Postdoc E: and it didn't do {disfmarker} I didn't do it in ten times the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the time .
Grad A: Well , so anyway , are we interested then in writing tools to try to generate any of this stuff automatically ?
Postdoc E: Yeah .
Grad A: Is that something you want to do , Dan ?
PhD B: No .
Grad A: No .
PhD B: But it 's something @ @ that I feel we definitely ought to do .
Postdoc E: I also wanted to ask you if you have a time estimate on the part that you transcribed . Do you have a sense of how long {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah , it took me half an hour to transcribe a minute , but I didn't have any {disfmarker} I didn't even have a {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: OK .
PhD B: I was trying to get Transcriber to run but I couldn't . So I was doing it by typ typing into a text file and trying to fit {disfmarker} It was horrible .
Postdoc E: OK . OK .
Undergrad D: So thirty to one 's what you got ?
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Undergrad D: So that 's a new upper limit ?
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc E: Well , I mean , that 's {disfmarker} that 's because you didn't have the segmentation help and all the other {disfmarker}
Grad A: But I think for a first try that 's about right .
PhD B: Is it {disfmarker}
PhD C: So {disfmarker} so if we hired a who if we hired a whole bunch of Dan 's {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: That 's right .
Postdoc E: Yeah .
PhD B: It was actually {disfmarker} it was quite {disfmarker} it was a t
Undergrad D: a
Grad A: If we {pause} hire an infinite number of Dan 's {disfmarker}
PhD B: it w
Undergrad D: It 'd b a a
Postdoc E: And there 's always a warm up thing of {disfmarker}
Grad A: Are we gonna run out of disk space by the way ?
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: OK ,
PhD B: No .
Grad A: good .
Postdoc E: OK .
Undergrad D: d Doesn't it beep in the other room when you 're out of disk space ?
PhD C: So {disfmarker} Is there {disfmarker}
Grad A: No .
PhD C: Maybe we should s consider also , um , starting to build up a web site around all of these things .
PhD B: Web site ! That 's great !
PhD C: I know .
Grad A: Dan 's sort of already started .
PhD B: We could have like business - to - business E - commerce as well !
PhD C: That 's right . No , but I 'm it would be interesting {disfmarker} it would be interesting to see {disfmarker}
Grad A: Can we sell banner ads ?
Undergrad D: Get {disfmarker} get paid for click - throughs ?
Grad A: What a good idea ,
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: that 's how we could pay for the transcription .
PhD C: I want to introduce {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I want to introduce the word " snot - head " into the conversation at this point .
PhD B: We can have {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: You wanna word that won't be recognized ?
PhD C: You see , cuz {disfmarker} uh , cuz {disfmarker} Exactly . Um .
Postdoc E: Oh , I don't think so .
PhD C: No .
Grad A: Hey , what about me ?
PhD C: The r w What {disfmarker} OK .
Postdoc E: You 're the one who raised the issue .
PhD C: No . Alright , see here 's {disfmarker} here 's {disfmarker} here 's my thought behind it which is that , uh , the {disfmarker} the stuff that you 've been describing , Jane , I gu one has to , {vocalsound} of course {vocalsound} indicate , {comment} {vocalsound} um , i is very interesting ,
Postdoc E: Alright .
PhD C: and I I 'd like to be able to {disfmarker} to pore through , you know , the {disfmarker} the types of tr conventions that you 've come up with and stuff like that .
PhD B: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
PhD C: So I would like to see that kind of stuff on the web .
Postdoc E: OK , now , w the alternative to a web site would be to put it in Doctor speech .
PhD B: Yes . Yes .
Postdoc E: Cuz {disfmarker} cuz what I have is a soft link to my transcription {vocalsound} that I have on my account
PhD C: Either 's fine .
PhD B: We c
Postdoc E: but it doesn't matter .
Grad A: We can do it all .
PhD B: we can do it all ! We can write {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: OK .
PhD B: Oh .
Postdoc E: Web site 's nice .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc E: Then you have to t you have to do an HT access .
Undergrad D: Web site 's what ?
PhD B: We could actually {disfmarker} maybe we could use the TCL plug - in . Oh , man .
Postdoc E: Ooo ! He 's committed himself to something .
PhD C: Ow . See he said the word TCL and {disfmarker} and that 's {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: But he does such a good job of it . He should be allowed to {disfmarker} to , you know , w do it .
Postdoc E: I know , I know .
PhD B: I know , but that {disfmarker} but , I {disfmarker} Right . But I should be allowed to but {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: If you just did a crappy job , {vocalsound} no nobody would want you to do it .
PhD B: I sh I shouldn't be allowed to by m by my own {disfmarker} {vocalsound} by my {disfmarker} according to my own priorities . Alright . Let 's look at it anyway . So definitely we should {disfmarker} we should have some kind of access to the data .
Grad A: And we have {disfmarker} we have quite a disparate number of web and other sorts of documents on this project sort of spread around .
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad A: I have several and Dan has a few ,
PhD B: Yes .
Grad A: and {disfmarker}
PhD C: Right , so we can add in links and stuff like that to other things .
Postdoc E: Ah !
Grad A: Yep .
Postdoc E: Nice .
PhD B: Well , yeah .
PhD C: The {disfmarker}
PhD B: Well so then th
Grad A: Try {disfmarker} try to s consolidate . I mean , who wants to do that though ?
PhD B: the other side is , yeah .
PhD C: Uh , right .
Grad A: No one wants to do that . So .
Postdoc E: Yeah .
PhD B: Right , that 's the problem .
PhD C: Well , we could put {disfmarker} we could put sort of a disorganized sort of group gestalt {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: Why ? What {disfmarker} what 's {disfmarker} what 's the issue ?
PhD B: No one owns the project .
Undergrad D: No one what ?
PhD B: No one owns the project .
Grad A: Yeah , I own the project but I don't wanna do it .
PhD B: No one wants to own the project .
PhD C: Right .
Undergrad D: W well {pause} Do {disfmarker} But {disfmarker}
Grad A: It 's mine ! All mine !
PhD B: Well then you have to do the web site .
Undergrad D: But {disfmarker}
Grad A: " Wah - hah - hah - hah - hah - hah . "
PhD B: You know , it 's like , it 's that simple .
Undergrad D: b but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but what are you {disfmarker} what are you talking about for web site hacking ?
PhD B: No {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: You 're talking about writing HTML , right ?
Grad A: Yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm talking about putting together all the data in a form that {disfmarker} that is legible , and pleasant to read , and up to date , and et cetera , et cetera , et cetera .
PhD B: Yeah .
Undergrad D: But , is it against the law to actually use a tool to help your job go easier ?
Grad A: Absolutely . It 's {disfmarker} it 's absolutely against the law to use a tool . I haven't found any tools that I like .
Undergrad D: You y
Grad A: It 's just as easy to use {disfmarker} to edit the raw HTML as anything else .
Undergrad D: No kidding ?
PhD B: That 's obviously not true ,
Grad A: It 's obviously not true .
PhD B: but you have {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: No , it it it 's obviously true that he hasn't found any he likes .
PhD B: Right . That 's true .
Undergrad D: The question is what is {disfmarker} what 's he looked at .
Postdoc E: Which one do you use Jim ?
Undergrad D: I use something called Trellix .
Postdoc E: Oh , that 's right . I remember . Yeah .
Undergrad D: And it {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Which produces also site maps .
Grad A: Now , I guess if I were {disfmarker} if I were doing more powerful {disfmarker} excuse me {disfmarker} more complex web sites I might want to .
Undergrad D: it 's - it it 's very powerful .
Grad A: But most of the web sites I do aren't that complex .
Postdoc E: Well , would this be to document it also for outside people or mainly for in house use ?
Grad A: But . I think both .
PhD C: No , I think in
Grad A: Mostly in house .
PhD B: That 's right .
PhD C: I think mostly internal .
Undergrad D: Well , yeah ,
Postdoc E: OK .
Undergrad D: but what does internal mean ?
PhD B: No , both .
Undergrad D: I mean , you 're leaving . People at UW wanna look at it . I mean , it 's {disfmarker} it 's internal {comment} until {disfmarker}
PhD C: Right . Internal to the project .
Undergrad D: I see .
Postdoc E: We could do an HT access which would accommodate those things .
PhD B: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}
Grad A: OK , well , send me links and I wi send me pointers , rather , and I 'll put it together .
PhD B: I 'm not {disfmarker} o
Postdoc E: Wonderful .
PhD B: OK . I 'm not sure how {disfmarker} how {vocalsound} important that distinction is . I don't think {vocalsound} we should say , {vocalsound} " oh , it 's internal therefore we don't have to make it very good " . I mean , you can say {vocalsound} " oh {disfmarker} oh , it 's internal
PhD C: No . No .
PhD B: therefore we can put data in it that we don't {disfmarker} we don't have to worry about releasing " . But I think the point is to try and {vocalsound} be coherent and make it a nice presentation .
Undergrad D: Right . I agree .
Postdoc E: Yeah , it is true , that is {disfmarker} it benefits to {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: Cuz you 're gonna have to wor do the work sooner or later .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc E: That 's right . I mean , it 's the early on .
Undergrad D: Even if it 's just writing things up .
Grad A: Yep .
Undergrad D: You know ?
Postdoc E: It 's a great idea .
Grad A: OK , um , let 's move on to electronics .
PhD B: Ah . Great .
Undergrad D: d we {disfmarker} we out of tape {disfmarker} out of disk ?
PhD B: No , we 're doing {disfmarker} we 're doing great .
Undergrad D: I {disfmarker} I was looking for the actual box I plan to use , uh , but I {disfmarker} c all I could {disfmarker} I couldn't find it at the local store . But this is {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the technology . It 's actually a little bit thinner than this . And it 's two by two , by one , and it would fit right under the {disfmarker} right under th the the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the lip ,
Grad A: Yeah , does everyone know about the lip on the table ? It 's great .
Undergrad D: yeah . There 's a lip in these tables .
Postdoc E: Nice .
Undergrad D: And , it oc I p especially brought the bottom along to try and generate some frequencies that you may not already have recorded .
Grad A: Clink ! Clink !
Undergrad D: Let 's see {disfmarker} {vocalsound} see what it does to the {disfmarker} But this was the uh {disfmarker} just {disfmarker} just to review , and I also brought this {comment} along rather than the projector so we can put these on the table , and sort of w push them around .
Grad A: And {disfmarker} and crinkle them and {disfmarker}
PhD B: What ?
Postdoc E: And th " that " being a diagram .
PhD B: What ?
Undergrad D: That {disfmarker} that 's the six tables that we 're looking at . These six tables here , {vocalsound} with {disfmarker} with little boxes sort of , uh , in the middle here .
PhD B: I see .
Postdoc E: OK .
Undergrad D: Which es would {disfmarker} I mean , the {disfmarker} the boxes are pretty much out of the way anyway . I 'll - I 'll show you the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the cro this is the table cross section . I don't know if people realize what they 're looking at .
PhD B: You trying to {pause} screw up the m the microphones ?
Grad A: Yes . He is . Absolutely .
PhD B: I mean th
Undergrad D: Well why not ? I mean , cuz this is what 's gonna happen . You got plenty of data . I won't come to your next meeting . And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and you So this is the box 's {disfmarker}
Grad A: Get your paper off my PDA !
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc E: Yeah , let {disfmarker} let the record show that this is exhibit two B .
Undergrad D: That 's right . " Or not to be " . Yeah , yeah .
Grad A: Yeah .
Undergrad D: Uh , the box , uh {disfmarker} there 's a half inch lip here . The box is an inch thick so it hangs down a half an inch . And so the {disfmarker} the two {vocalsound} head set jacks would be in the front and then the little LED to indicate that that box is live . The {disfmarker} the important issue about the LED is the fact that we 're talking about eight of these total , which would be sixteen channels . And , uh , even though we have sixteen channels back at the capture , they 're not all gonna be used for this .
PhD B: Hmm .
Undergrad D: So there 'd be a subset of them used for {disfmarker} obviously j just use the ones at this end for {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for this many . So {disfmarker} Excuse me . you 'd like a {disfmarker} a way to tell whether your box is live , so the LED wouldn't be on .
PhD B: Right . All the lights .
Undergrad D: So if you 're plugged in it doesn't work and the LED is off that 's {disfmarker} that 's a tip off . And then the , uh {disfmarker} would wire the {disfmarker} all of the cables in a {disfmarker} in a bundle come through here and o obviously collect these cables at the same time .
Postdoc E: That 's good .
Undergrad D: Uh , so this {disfmarker} this notion of putting down the P Z Ms {vocalsound} and taking them away would somehow have to be turned into leaving them on the table
Grad A: Right . Well , we wanna do that definitely .
Undergrad D: or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} Right .
Grad A: So .
Undergrad D: Right . And so the {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} we just epoxy them down or something . Big screw into the table .
PhD B: Velcro .
Undergrad D: Uh , and even though there 's eight cables they 're not really very big around so my model is to get a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a p piece of {disfmarker}
Grad A: Sleeve .
Undergrad D: yeah , that {disfmarker} that stuff that people put with the little {disfmarker} you slip the wires into that 's {vocalsound} sort of shaped like that cross section .
Grad A: Oh . OK , not just sleeve them all ?
Undergrad D: Yeah . I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm r a I 'm going up and then I 'm going down .
Grad A: And leave them loose ?
PhD B: No .
Postdoc E: That looks like a semi - circle .
PhD B: Yeah . It 's like a {disfmarker} it 's a sleeping policeman .
Grad A: Whoo !
PhD B: Speed bump !
Postdoc E: Sleeping pol
PhD B: Speed bump .
Grad A: Speed A " sleeping policeman " !
Undergrad D: Yeah , it 's like a speed bum {vocalsound} An
Postdoc E: Speed bump . That 's good . There we go s
Grad A: Cool .
Undergrad D: And they 're ac they 're actually ext extruded from plastic .
PhD C: What is {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: They sorta look like this .
Grad A: Oh .
PhD C: What does that mean ?
PhD B: That 's the s that 's British for speed bump ,
PhD C: Is it a speed bump ?
Undergrad D: So that the wires go through here .
PhD B: yeah .
PhD C: Wow .
Postdoc E: Oh , is that right ?
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc E: I never heard that .
Grad A: That 's really cruel .
Undergrad D: So .
Postdoc E: Ah !
Grad A: OK , so that {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: s So it would c basically go on the diagonal here .
PhD C: It could go either way .
Grad A: So why do we have sixteen channels instead of like some fewer number ?
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD C: I guess .
Undergrad D: Uh , because the {disfmarker}
PhD B: How else are you gonna distribute them around the tables ?
Undergrad D: Because they 're there .
Grad A: Well , OK , let me rephrase that . Why two each ?
PhD B: Oh , because then you don't have to just have one each . So that if t if you have two people sitting next to each other they can actually go into the same box .
Undergrad D: Yeah .
Grad A: OK .
Undergrad D: And to {disfmarker} See , thi this is really the way people sit on this table . Th
Grad A: OK .
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .
Undergrad D: Uh . Dot , dot , dot .
Postdoc E: Which means two at each station .
Undergrad D: Well that {disfmarker} that 's the way people sit . That 's how many chairs are in the room .
Postdoc E: Yeah .
Grad A: Alright .
Postdoc E: Yeah , I 'm just saying that for the recording .
Undergrad D: Yeah .
Grad A: Right .
Undergrad D: Right .
Grad A: OK .
Undergrad D: And certainly you could do a thing where all sixteen were plugged in .
Grad A: But then none of these .
Undergrad D: Uh if {disfmarker} if you ha if you had nothing else .
Grad A: Right . N none of these and no P Z Ms then .
Undergrad D: Yeah . Right . Right . I agree .
PhD B: Only if you had {disfmarker} Well it depends on this box , right ?
Undergrad D: Oh , true enough . And actually , at the m my plan is to only bring eight wires out of this box .
PhD B: Exactly .
Grad A: Oh , I didn't understand {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: This {disfmarker} this box {disfmarker} Thi - thi thi this box is a one off deal .
Postdoc E: That being the wiring box .
Grad A: Oh , I see , I see .
Undergrad D: Uh . And , uh , it 's function is to s to , uh , essentially a wire converter to go from these little blue wires to these black wires , plus supply power to the microphones cuz the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} he the , uh , cheap head mounteds all require low voltage .
Grad A: So {disfmarker} so you 'd imagine some sort of {disfmarker} in some sort of patch panel on top to figure out what the mapping was between each d of these two and each of those one or what ?
PhD B: Hmm !
Undergrad D: Well I w I I the simplest thing I could imagine , i which is really , really simple is to {disfmarker} quite literally that these things plug in . And there 's a {disfmarker} there 's a plug on the end of each of these {disfmarker} these , uh , ei eight cables .
Postdoc E: What {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc E: OK . Each of the blue wires ?
PhD B: But there are only four .
Undergrad D: An - and there 's only {disfmarker} there 's only four slots that are {disfmarker} you know , in {disfmarker} in the first version or the version we 're planning to {disfmarker} to build .
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Yeah .
Undergrad D: So {vocalsound} that {disfmarker} that was the whole issue with the LED , that you plug it in , the LED comes on , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and you 're live .
Grad A: Oh , then it comes on . I see , I see . OK , good .
Undergrad D: Now the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the subtle issue here is that {disfmarker} tha I {disfmarker} I haven't really figured out a solution for this . So , we it 'll have to be convention . What happens if somebody unplugs this because they plug in more of something else ?
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Undergrad D: Well the {disfmarker} there 's no clever way to let the up stream guys know that you 're really not being powered . So {disfmarker} th there will be a certain amount of looking at cables has to be done if people , uh , rewire things .
Grad A: Right .
PhD B: Yeah , I mean , we {disfmarker} I had that last time .
Undergrad D: But .
PhD B: But uh there are actually {disfmarker} that you know , there 's an extra {disfmarker} there 's a mix out on the radio receiver ?
Undergrad D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So there are actually six {vocalsound} XLR outs on the back of the radio receiver and only five cables going in , I had the wrong five , so I ended up {vocalsound} not recording one of the channels and recording the mix .
Undergrad D: How interesting . D did you do any recognition on the mix {disfmarker} mix out ?
Postdoc E: Hmm .
PhD B: No .
Undergrad D: Wonder whether it works any {disfmarker}
PhD B: But I subtracted the four that I did have from the mix and got a pretty good approximation of the @ @ .
Undergrad D: Got the fifth ?
Grad A: You g
Undergrad D: Cool .
Postdoc E: Oh , how great .
Grad A: And did it work ?
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: Did it sound good ?
PhD B: It 's not bad .
Undergrad D: Is it {disfmarker} is {disfmarker}
PhD B: It 's not bad ,
Grad A: Wow .
PhD B: yeah .
Undergrad D: Ain't science wonderful ?
Postdoc E: That 's amazing .
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: So what 's the schedule on these things ?
Undergrad D: So {disfmarker}
PhD B: But , you always {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Wow .
Undergrad D: Uh , well I was wrestling with th with literally the w number of connectors in the cable and the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the , uh , {vocalsound} powering system . And I {disfmarker} I was gonna do this very clever phantom power and I decided a couple days ago not to do it .
PhD B: Hmm !
Undergrad D: So I 'm ready to build it . Which is to say , uh , the neighborhood of a week to get the circuit board done .
Grad A: Mm - hmm . So I think the other thing I 'd like to do is , do something about the set up
PhD B: See
Grad A: so that it 's a little more presentable and organized .
Undergrad D: I agree .
Grad A: And I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm just not sure what that is . I mean , some sort of cabinet .
Undergrad D: Well I can build a cabinet . The {disfmarker} the difficulty for this kind of project is the intellectual capital to design the cabinet .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Undergrad D: In other words , to figure out ex exactly what the right thing is . That cabinet can {disfmarker} can go away . We can use that for {disfmarker} for uh kindling or something . But if you can imagine what the right form factor is . Dan - Dan and I have sort of gone around on this , and we were thinking about something that opened up in the top {vocalsound} to allow access to the mixer for example .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Undergrad D: But there 's these things sticking out of the mixer which are kind of a pain , so you end up with this thing that {disfmarker} if if you stuck the mixer up here and the top opened , it 'd be {disfmarker} it 'd be fine . You wouldn't necessarily {disfmarker} Well , you s understand what I 'm {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah , I understand .
PhD B: Yeah .
Undergrad D: the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} you can {disfmarker} you can start {disfmarker} start s sketching it out ,
Grad A: So .
Undergrad D: and I can certainly build it out of oak no problem , would it {disfmarker} you know , arb you know , arbitrarily amount of {disfmarker}
Grad A: I need a desk at home too , alright ? Is that gonna be a better solution than just going out and buy one ?
Undergrad D: Well , the {disfmarker} as we found out with the {disfmarker} the thing that , uh , Jeff bought a long time ago to hold our stereo system {vocalsound} the stuff you buy is total crap . And I mean this is something you buy .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Undergrad D: And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}
Grad A: And it 's total crap .
Undergrad D: It 's total crap . Well , it 's useless for this function . Works fine for holding a Kleenex ,
Grad A: Right , Kleenex and telephones .
Undergrad D: but it {disfmarker} Right .
Grad A: Um , so yeah , I g I guess it 's just a question , is that something you wanna spend your time on ?
Undergrad D: Oh , I {disfmarker} I 'm paid for .
Grad A: OK , great .
Undergrad D: I have no problem . No , but w certainly one of the issues is {disfmarker} is the , uh {disfmarker} is security .
Grad A: Hmm ? Mm - hmm .
Undergrad D: I mean , we 've been {disfmarker} been {disfmarker} been lax and lucky .
Grad A: Lax .
PhD B: Yeah . Yep .
Undergrad D: Really lucky with these things . But they 're not ours , so {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah .
Undergrad D: the , uh {disfmarker} the flat panels .
PhD B: Oh , yeah !
Grad A: I 'm telling you , I 'm just gonna cart one of them away if they stay there much longer .
PhD B: Well w yeah , exactly .
Undergrad D: Uh , let the record show at {disfmarker} uh {vocalsound} at f four thirty - five {vocalsound} Adam Janin says {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Wow . Tempting .
PhD B: We 'll know {disfmarker} we 'll know to come after .
Postdoc E: Tempting . Yeah .
Grad A: So , um , j uh , then the other question is do we wanna try to do a user interface that 's available out here ?
PhD B: Sorry ?
Undergrad D: Slipped {disfmarker} almost slipped it by Dan .
Postdoc E: Use - user interface {disfmarker}
Grad A: A user interface . I mean , do we wanna try to get a monitor ? Or just something .
PhD B: Oh ! Sure .
Postdoc E: Oh .
PhD B: Well of course we do .
Grad A: And how do we want to do that ?
Postdoc E: You mean like see {disfmarker} see meter readings , from {disfmarker} while sitting here .
Grad A: J just so we see something .
Postdoc E: Wow .
Undergrad D: How about use the thing that um ACIRI 's doing .
PhD B: Yeah .
Undergrad D: Which is to say just laptop with a wireless .
PhD B: Yeah , yeah , yeah . Sure .
Postdoc E: Oh .
PhD B: Which we 'll borrow from them , {vocalsound} when we need it .
Undergrad D: What 's wrong with yours ? If we bought you a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker}
PhD B: Oh , a Applecard . Sure . Right . Yeah , you could use my machine .
PhD C: Well {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: What ?
Grad A: I have an IRAM machine I 've borrowed and we can use it .
PhD B: I {disfmarker} or the {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: N no , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm serious . Does {disfmarker} does the wireless thing work on your {disfmarker}
Grad A: Wait , isn't that an ethernet connection or is that a phone ?
PhD B: Uh , that 's an ethernet connection .
Grad A: Well {disfmarker}
PhD B: It 's going next door .
Undergrad D: Yeah {disfmarker} no {disfmarker} no I 'm a I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I ain't joking here .
Grad A: We jus
Undergrad D: I 'm serious , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah . No , no , absolutely , that 's the right way to do it . T to have it uh , just {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: It 's very convenient especially if Dan happens to be sitting at that end of the table to not have to run down here and {disfmarker} and look in the thing every so often ,
PhD B: Yeah . And given {disfmarker} given that we 've got a wireless {disfmarker} that we 've got a {disfmarker} we got the field .
Undergrad D: but just have the {disfmarker} It 's right there .
PhD B: Right .
Undergrad D: Right ? The antenna 's right there ,
Grad A: Right .
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah .
Undergrad D: right outside the {disfmarker}
PhD B: I don't know .
Undergrad D: Y I mean , we need {disfmarker} obviously need to clear this with ACIRI but , uh , how tough can that be ? There {disfmarker} it you 'd {disfmarker} all you need 's web access , isn't it ?
PhD B: W we don't need X access
Undergrad D: In {disfmarker} in theory .
PhD B: but I mean that 's fine . That 's {disfmarker} that 's what it does ,
Undergrad D: OK ,
PhD B: yeah .
Undergrad D: great , great .
Grad A: Um ,
PhD B: So {disfmarker}
Grad A: right , so it 's just a question of getting a laptop and a wireless modem .
PhD B: With a {disfmarker} with a {disfmarker} with a {disfmarker} w
Undergrad D: No , and he {disfmarker} he had , reque @ @ {disfmarker} my {disfmarker} my proposal is you have a laptop .
PhD B: No . Yeah . I do !
Undergrad D: You don't ?
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah , yeah .
Undergrad D: If {disfmarker} if we bought you the thing would you mind using it with i the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}
PhD B: No , I would love to but I 'm not sure if my laptop is compatible with the wave LAN thing they 're using .
Undergrad D: Really ?
Grad A: To {pause} Mac .
PhD B: Well Apple has their own thing , right ?
PhD C: He 's {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: Your new one ?
Grad A: Airport .
Undergrad D: I 'm sorry ?
PhD B: Apple has their own thing . And {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: I thought it just came through a serial p or an Ethernet port .
PhD B: Yeah , I think what {disfmarker} I think you {disfmarker} I think it just plug plugs in a PC card , so you could probably make it run with that , but .
Grad A: The question is , is there an Apple driver ?
Undergrad D: I {disfmarker} e
PhD B: Yeah , I 'm sure . I imagine there is . But {disfmarker} uh anyway there are {disfmarker} there are abs there are a bunch of machines at ICSI that have those cards
Undergrad D: But the two t
PhD B: and so I think if w if it doesn't {disfmarker} we should be able to find a machine that does that . I {disfmarker} I mean I know that doesn't {disfmarker} don't {disfmarker} don't the important people have those little blue VAIOs that {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: Well , uh , b that {disfmarker} to me that 's a whole nother . That 's a whole nother issue .
Postdoc E: Hmm . Hmm .
PhD B: Yeah .
Undergrad D: The {disfmarker} the idea of con convincing them that we should use their network i is fairly straight forward .
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah .
Undergrad D: The idea of being able to walk into their office and say , " oh , can I borrow your machine for a while " , is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is a non - starter .
PhD B: Yeah . I see .
Undergrad D: That {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't think that 's gonna work . So , I mean , either {disfmarker} either we figure out how to use a machine somebody already {disfmarker} in the group already owns , {vocalsound} a a and the idea is that if it 's it perk , you know , it 's an advantage not {disfmarker} not a disadvan {comment} {vocalsound} or else we {disfmarker} we literally buy a machine e exactly for that purpose .
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah , yeah . Absolutely . Yeah .
Undergrad D: Certainly it solves a lot of the problems with leaving a monitor out here all the time .
PhD B: Yeah .
Undergrad D: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm not a big fan of doing things to the room that make the room less attractive for other people ,
Grad A: Right .
Undergrad D: right ? Which is part of the reason for getting all this stuff out of the way
Grad A: Yeah .
Undergrad D: and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and , so a monitor sitting here all the time you know people are gonna walk up to it and go , " how come I can't get , you know , Pong on this " or , whatev
Grad A: Mm - hmm . Right . I 've {disfmarker} I 've borrowed the IRAM VAIO Sony thingy ,
PhD C: Well {disfmarker}
Grad A: and I don't think they 're ever gonna want it back .
PhD B: Yeah .
Undergrad D: Right .
PhD B: You 're kidding !
Undergrad D: Well , the next conference they will .
Grad A: So . Sure .
Undergrad D: Yeah .
Grad A: But that does mean {disfmarker} so we can use that as well .
Undergrad D: Well , uh , the {disfmarker} certainly , u you should give it a shot first See whether you you can get compatible stuff .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Undergrad D: Uh , ask them what it costs . Ask them if they have an extra one . Who knows , they might have an extra {vocalsound} hardware s
PhD B: I 'd trade them a flat panel display for it . Yeah .
PhD C: What is the , um , projector supposed to be hooked up to ?
Undergrad D: Good . Uh , the , uh {disfmarker} Tsk . It 's gonna be hooked up to all sorts of junk . There 's gonna be actually a {disfmarker} a plug at the front that 'll connect to people 's laptops so you can walk in and plug it in . And it 's gonna be con connected to the machine at the back . So we certainly could use that as {disfmarker} as a constant reminder of what the VU meters are doing .
PhD B: Huge VU meters .
Undergrad D: So people sitting here {comment} are going {vocalsound} " testing , one , two , three " !
PhD C: But I mean , that 's another {disfmarker} that 's another possibility that , you know , solves {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: It {disfmarker} a
PhD B: Yeah .
Undergrad D: Yeah .
PhD B: That 's an end
Undergrad D: But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but I think the idea of having a control panel it 's {disfmarker} that 's there in front of you is really cool .
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah , yeah .
Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: I think and uh , having {disfmarker} having it on wireless is {disfmarker} is the neatest way {disfmarker} neatest way to do it .
Undergrad D: R
Grad A: I had {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: As long as you d as l as long as you 're not tempted to sit there and f keep fiddling with the volume controls going , " can you talk a bit louder ? "
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: I had actually earlier asked if I could borrow one of the cards to do wireless stuff
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: and they said , " sure , whenever you want " . So I think it won't be a problem .
PhD B: Oh , cool . OK .
Undergrad D: And {disfmarker} and it 's a {disfmarker} a PCMCIA card , right ?
Grad A: Yep .
Undergrad D: PC card ,
Grad A: PC card .
Undergrad D: so you can have a slot ,
PhD B: Yeah , yeah .
Undergrad D: right ? In your new machine ?
PhD C: It 's {disfmarker} it really come down to the driver .
Undergrad D: Is it with s
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD C: I mean {disfmarker}
Grad A: Right , I mean , and if {disfmarker} and if his doesn't work , as I said , we can use the PC .
Undergrad D: Right , i it 'll {disfmarker} it 'll work {disfmarker} It 'll work the first time . I {disfmarker} I trust Steve Jobs .
Grad A: Good .
PhD B: Um ,
Grad A: So {disfmarker}
PhD B: well , that sounds like a d good solution one way or the other .
Grad A: So Jim is gonna be doing wiring and you 're gonna give some thought to cabinets ?
Undergrad D: Uh , y yeah .
Grad A: Great .
Undergrad D: We {disfmarker} we need to {vocalsound} figure out what we want . Uh {disfmarker}
PhD B: We 'd {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: Hey , what are those green lights doing ?
Grad A: They 're flashing !
PhD B: Uh - oh ! Uh - oh ! Does that {disfmarker} it means {disfmarker} it means it 's gonna explode . No .
Undergrad D: Cut the red wire , the red wire !
PhD B: Um {disfmarker}
Grad A: When people talk , it {disfmarker} they go on and off .
PhD B: This {disfmarker} So again , Washington wants to equip a system . Our system , we spent ten thousand dollars on equipment not including the PC . However , seven and a half thousand of that was the wireless mikes . Uh ,
Undergrad D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: using {disfmarker} using these {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: And it {disfmarker} and the f the five thousand for the wires , so if I 'm gonna do {disfmarker} No .
PhD B: Yeah ,
Undergrad D: It 's a joke .
PhD B: that 's true
Undergrad D: I have to do {disfmarker}
PhD B: but we haven't spent that , right ? But once we {disfmarker} once we 've done the intellectual part of these , uh , we can just knock them out , right ?
Grad A: Cheap .
PhD B: We can start {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} you can make a hundred of them or something .
Undergrad D: Oh , of the {disfmarker} of the boards ? Yeah , yeah , sure , right .
PhD B: And then we could {disfmarker} Washington could have a system that didn't have any wireless but would had {disfmarker} what 's based on these
Undergrad D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: and it would cost {disfmarker}
Grad A: A PC and a peanuts .
Undergrad D: Peanuts .
PhD B: PC and two thousand dollars for the A - to - D stuff .
Grad A: Yeah .
PhD B: And that 's about {disfmarker} cuz you wouldn't even need the mixer if you didn't have the {disfmarker} Oh th {vocalsound} the P Z
Undergrad D: Right .
PhD B: P Z Ms cost a lot . But anyway you 'd save , on the seven {disfmarker} seven or eight thousand for the {disfmarker} for the wireless system . So actually that might be attractive .
Undergrad D: Right .
Grad A: Good .
PhD B: OK , I can move my thumb now .
Postdoc E: That 's a great idea .
Undergrad D: What ?
Postdoc E: It 's nice {disfmarker} it 's nice to be thinking toward that .
Undergrad D: Oh , I thought like if we talked softer the disk lasts longer .
Grad A: Well , actually shorten {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad A: There 's a speech compression program that works great on things like this , cuz if the dynamic range is low it encodes it with fewer bits . And so most of the time no one 's talking so it shortens it dramatically . But {vocalsound} if you talk quieter , the dynamic range is lower and it will compress better . So .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc E: Oh . Hmm .
Undergrad D: It also helps if you talk in a monotone .
Grad A: Probably .
Undergrad D: Constant volume all the time .
Postdoc E: Oh , interesting . And shorter words .
Grad A: Shorter words .
PhD C: Now , shorter words wouldn't {disfmarker} would induce more dynamics , right ? You want to have {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah , but if the words are more predictable .
Grad A: How about if you just go " uh " ?
PhD C: Huh .
Undergrad D: Uh .
Postdoc E: That 's a long word !
Grad A: How do you spell that ?
Postdoc E: I don't know .
Grad A: OK , can you do one more round of digits ? Are we done talking ?
Undergrad D: Well it 's a choice {disfmarker} if we get a choice , let 's keep talking .
Grad A: Do we have more to talk about ?
Undergrad D: Sure . No , I 'm done .
PhD C: I 'm done .
Grad A: Are you done ?
Postdoc E: I 'm done ,
Grad A: I 'm done .
Postdoc E: yeah .
PhD C: Dan isn't but he 's not gonna say anything .
Undergrad D: But {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} there 's a problem {disfmarker} a structural problem with this though . You really need an incentive at the end if you 're gonna do digits again . Like , you know , candy bars or something ,
Grad A: I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll remember to bring M and M 's next time .
Undergrad D: or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or or a little , uh {disfmarker} you know , toothbrushes like they give you at the d dentist .
PhD B: Mmm !
Postdoc E: Or both .
Undergrad D: Or both .
PhD B: Sorry .
Undergrad D: Eric , you and I win . We didn't make any mistakes .
Grad A: It 's harder at the end than at the beginning .
Postdoc E: We don't know that for sure , do we ?
Grad A: I should have mentioned that s uh , to pause between lines but {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: No , I know . I 'm just giving you a hard time .
Grad A: It 's {disfmarker} it 's only a hard time for the transcriber not for the speech recognizer .
PhD B: Tha - tha
Postdoc E: But {disfmarker} I also think you said channel four
Grad A: Me .
Postdoc E: and I think you meant microphone four . And I think that 's a mistake .
Undergrad D: Very good . So Eric , you win . But the other thing is that there 's a {disfmarker} there 's a colon for transcripts . And there shouldn't be a colon . Because see , everything else is stuff you fill in .
PhD B: Yeah , that 's been filled in for you .
Undergrad D: Right ? Automatically .
PhD B: But they 're in order !
Undergrad D: But real
PhD B: They start , six , seven , eight , nine , zero , one , two , three , four , five , six , eight , nine .
Undergrad D: Where 'd they come from ?
PhD B: And they 're in order because they 're sorted lexically by the file names , which are {disfmarker} have the numbers in digits .
Postdoc E: Oh .
PhD B: And so they 're actually {disfmarker} this is like all the {disfmarker} all utterances that were generated by speaker MPJ or something .
Postdoc E: Oh .
PhD B: And then within MPJ they 're sorted by what he actually said .
Grad A: Ugh ! I didn't know that . I should have randomized it .
Postdoc E: Wow .
PhD B: It doesn't matter ! It 's like {disfmarker} Cuz you said " six , seven , eight " .
Undergrad D: Well , we think it doesn't matter .
PhD B: We think it doesn't matter . If I {disfmarker} if not I {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: But the real question I have is that , why bother with these ?
Postdoc E: Oh , interesting .
Undergrad D: Why don't you just ask people to repeat numbers they already know ? Like phone numbers , you know , social security numbers .
PhD B: Cuz we have these writt written down , right ?
Grad A: Because {disfmarker} Right .
PhD B: That 's why {disfmarker}
Grad A: If we have it , uh {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: I know .
Postdoc E: Social security numbers .
Undergrad D: I kn
Grad A: we don't have to transcribe .
PhD B: You can {disfmarker} you can generate {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Bank account numbers .
Undergrad D: Credit card numbers ,
Grad A: We don't have to tran
Undergrad D: yeah .
Grad A: Yeah , please .
PhD B: Yeah . That 's a great idea .
Postdoc E: Passport numbers .
Undergrad D: Yeah , so you just say {disfmarker} {vocalsound} say your credit card numbers , say your phone numbers , say your mother 's maiden name .
Grad A: Bet we could do it .
Undergrad D: You know pe
Postdoc E: Password to your account .
Undergrad D: people off the street .
Postdoc E: Go on .
Undergrad D: This {disfmarker}
Grad A: Actually , this {disfmarker} I got this directly from another training set , from Aurora .
PhD B: Alright .
Grad A: So . We can compare directly .
PhD B: Looks good . Looks like there were no errors .
Postdoc E: I was {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} the reason I made my mistake was {disfmarker}
Grad A: What ?
Postdoc E: Wa - was this {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: There were no {disfmarker} there were no direct driver errors , by the look of it , which is good .
Grad A: Great .
Postdoc E: Good news .
Grad A: OK , the mike 's off .
PhD B: So I 'm gonna stop it . Yeah , OK .
Postdoc E: OK .
Grad A: Thank you all .
Undergrad D: Mony on the mike .
PhD B: Uh - oh . | |
doc_122 | Project Manager: Good morning . Sorry ? Yeah , busy job . Good morning . So {disfmarker} Oh , good morning everyone .
User Interface: Good morning .
Industrial Designer: Good morning .
Project Manager: I'd uh like to welcome you to our first meeting . I've prepared a little presentation . My name is {gap} and uh I hope you will introduce yourself uh in a few minutes , as will I . Um I'm the Project Manager of this project , and uh , well I will tell you {gap} on what actually is the project . This is uh the agenda for our first meeting . Um this is the opening , then we will get {disfmarker} {gap} I will hope we will get acquainted to each other . We'll do a little tool training with these two things . We'll take a look at the project plan . Uh there will be time for discussion . Actually we have to discuss because we have to create a product . And then we will close this session . Um but first of all we I'd like to uh introduce you to this room . Um as you probably have noticed there are little black uh fields on the table . Um you have to put your laptop exactly in that field so the little cameras can see your face . Um there are cameras
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: everywhere around the room especially here for your face , of course , and this isn't a pie , it's a a set of microphones
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and there are microphones here also . But please uh don't be afraid of them .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: They won't hurt you . Um well uh
User Interface: Well {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I said I'm the Project Manager and uh I'm hoping uh for a good project and uh I'd like to hear uh who you are and what your functions are uh on this project . Let's start with the ladies {vocalsound} {vocalsound} .
User Interface: Well uh I'm uh {gap} and my uh function is User Interface Design , I think .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} So uh that's me .
Industrial Designer: Okay , uh I'm {gap} uh I'm the Industrial Designer and I uh hope to uh {disfmarker} look forward to uh a very uh pleasing uh end of this uh project .
Project Manager: Okay , so I .
User Interface: Me too .
Marketing: My name's {gap} . I'm uh {vocalsound} Marketing Expert . {vocalsound} My job is in the company to promote company or promote products to the customers . So I also h hope we have a pleasant uh working with uh with each other .
Project Manager: Okay , well we have some expertise from uh different pieces of the of the company .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's good . Um well I said uh we're working on a project and the aim for the project is to to create a {disfmarker} to design a new remote control which uh has to be original , trendy and of course , user friendly . {vocalsound} And uh I hope we have the expertise to create such a project {disfmarker} such a product . Um the way we hope to achieve that is uh the following methods . It consists of three phases , namely the functional design , conceptual design and detailed design . As you can see , all of these phases consists of two parts , namely individual work part and a meeting where we will discuss uh our work so far . Okay . But first I will uh tell you something about the tools we have here . I already talked about the cameras and microphones , but they are not of uh much use to us . Uh we will have to take advantage of these two things . They are smart boards . As you can see , you can give a presentation on them . And uh this one here is a white board . I will uh instruct you about that soon . Um as you also noticed uh this presentation document is in our uh project folder and every document you put in this folder uh is uh it is possible to show that here in our meeting room . Um and yeah there are available on both smart boards but I think we will uh mainly use this one for the documents in the shared folder . As you can see , this is the same tool bar uh as is located here . Um the most functions uh we will use will be to to add a new page , um uh to go back and forward between pages , and of course uh to save it every now and then . Um and this is the pen with which you can draw on the board , for instance like this if everything's okay ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but I first have to put it on the pen , you see I'm new to it too .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um and then you can write things like test or whatever you want .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh .
Project Manager: As you can see you have to move it a little bit slow , it's not such a fast board , it's a smart board but also a slow board .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh but you can write things and of course you can also , when you click here , uh erase things , so we have uh est left . And um you can also delete an entire page , but we ask you not to do that . Just simply create a new one and uh start all over because we want to save all the results . Um does everyone understand this
User Interface: {vocalsound} So we can't erase anything .
Project Manager: nice application ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Well you can erase it with the eraser , but uh you shouldn't delete an entire page , but just create a new blank one .
User Interface: Right .
Marketing: S
Project Manager: I will delete this one now because we don't use it yet .
User Interface: Alright .
Project Manager: But you can of course erase when you make a mistake , but don't uh delete entire pages . And you can also um let's see I think it's here uh change the uh colour of your pen , for instance take a blue one and uh change the line width like to five . Um that's what you will need for our first exercise , because I'm uh going to ask you to draw your favourite animal .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's also to gets to know each other because um I'm asking three things , uh for that uh drawing ,
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: to do it on a blank sheet , with different colours and I just showed you how to pick a colour , and also with different pen widths which I also showed you . Um and a favourite characteristic can be just uh one word . Well I'm not very good at drawing , but I will uh go first and um try to draw {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Or maybe you should guess what I'm drawing , eh . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Good .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: {gap} No .
User Interface: It's a sheep . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Dinos
Industrial Designer: Seal , a seal . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Dinosaur .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Beaver .
User Interface: {gap} A beaver . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: A be {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well it uh
User Interface: It's weird . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: could be everything .
Industrial Designer: Mm . With a tail and a mouth .
Project Manager: Maybe when I put on
User Interface: It has wings ?
Marketing: Turtle .
Project Manager: this thing it could be a turtle , or a snail ,
Industrial Designer: Snail . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well the snail doesn't have legs .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: But a turtle has . And those are slow . And I hope our project group will not be slow ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but we will uh work to a good result
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and do it uh as fast as we can . Okay , time for another animal . Would you like to go next ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} No problem . No problem .
Industrial Designer: Sure .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh right .
Marketing: Mm . It was four months ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Nice , okay .
User Interface: Well . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} The hell .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} To make it a little bit easier . {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a giraffe .
Industrial Designer: Make that cute . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Or a dinosaur . {vocalsound}
Marketing: No , it's a giraffe . 'Kay .
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: I think it's easy to r uh to recognise as a giraffe .
User Interface: Yes . Giraffe .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , the favourite charis characteristic is that the long neck , {vocalsound} it can reach everything . And I hope I can also reach a lot with this project . So that's my favourite animal .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Anything else you need to know ?
Project Manager: Could you write the words , uh underneath it ? Or more words .
Marketing: Oh , uh {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Tall . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Tall . So ,
User Interface: Should I uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: 'kay .
User Interface: Alright .
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: So I can draw , but uh {disfmarker} Uh . Well . {vocalsound} Oh .
Industrial Designer: B {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's a mouse .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Bunny rabbit . {vocalsound}
Marketing: A bunny rabbit . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} Oh wrong one . Uh . {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well uh
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: you can guess what it is , I hope . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh-huh . No problem .
Project Manager: Little rabbits .
User Interface: It's a rabbit .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} And uh well uh it's uh quick , I guess . That's uh my uh favourite animal . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , thank you .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: And our final drawing .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Bob Ross .
User Interface: A dolphin . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay , um .
Marketing: Dolphin .
Industrial Designer: Uh I uh draw I I've drawn a dolphin because of its intelligence .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Right .
Industrial Designer: One of the most intelligent uh
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: animals in our world .
User Interface: Well .
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah intelligent .
User Interface: With an E_ .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I've I've uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Eraser .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You can try out the eraser now . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Pen . Well not perfect , but okay .
Project Manager: Okay , well
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: thank you very much . I can see we have some uh drawing talent uh in this group ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Not really . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: huh ? Well , nice animals , nice words . Sounds good . Um back to business , back to the money part . Um from the finance department I have learned that we are aiming for a selling price of twenty five Euros . And we're hoping for a aim of fifty million Euros and uh we are hoping to achieve that uh by aiming for an international market . And the production cost will be twelve Euro fifty max . Okay , well it's time uh for some discussion . I've wrote down some examples here of what we can can speak about . Uh what's your experience with remote controls , um what kind of ideas do you have to design a new remote control , maybe for which market segments should we aim , or should we aim for all segments . Uh well actually I'd like to hand the word uh back to you . What's your experience with remote control ?
User Interface: {gap} I always lose them .
Industrial Designer: A lot of buttons . And you always lose them .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes .
Industrial Designer: A lot of buttons which you don't use
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: or who you don't use
Marketing: Complex .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Complex .
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Not user friendly .
User Interface: {gap} search for the buttons , which one is which
Marketing: No .
User Interface: and uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: No .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Boring .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Boring , it's not fun to use a remote .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: No .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Black , all black .
User Interface: Well .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Black colours .
Marketing: So , yeah .
Project Manager: Well maybe we should try to make it fun .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {gap} They use batteries and {gap} batteries uh and poor signal .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Perhaps that you have a lot of road remotes r road con remote controls .
Marketing: The the angle you have to use . You had different remote controls for different devices .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , different remote controls ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes ,
Industrial Designer: yeah .
User Interface: perhaps you can integrate them or something .
Marketing: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Uh for the use of different uh devices {vocalsound} .
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Your stereo and your T_V_
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: and uh . Perhaps that's an idea .
Marketing: Yeah but then again you you still have a lot of buttons ,
User Interface: Yeah , that's right . And which you don't use .
Industrial Designer: Yeah
Marketing: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but you could uh I thin uh there's a possibility to g uh to uh to put those buttons uh behind some uh kind of uh protection
Marketing: Flap
User Interface: Right .
Industrial Designer: so that if y y you only get to see them when you need 'em .
Marketing: yeah . Yeah , okay , that's possible ,
Industrial Designer: That's possible , so that you only get the {disfmarker}
Marketing: but it'll get very big the the remote control .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . You should just give it to {gap} . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No n n no , just {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Uh for example you got th uh the same size uh remote control you use everyday , but um {vocalsound} the usual buttons such as uh um {vocalsound} zapping uh as you call it in Dutch . Uh and the volume control uh are only the only possible buttons uh to use directly .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Changing channel .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Or uh {vocalsound} the numbers , of course .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . {gap} numbers .
Industrial Designer: But uh not uh the buttons used to search on the the channels on your television .
Marketing: On and off .
Industrial Designer: You only use those uh the first time , or .
Marketing: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: So . Uh .
Marketing: play , pause , stop .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . So maybe a a minimalist design , the least uh possible amount uh of buttons .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I think so , yeah .
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: Yes . But you should make sure that you have every button they need on it . Because uh things for uh teletext , I dunno uh , {vocalsound} w
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Mm-hmm , of course .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , uh teletext .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: what's the name ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {gap} think so .
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: So you don't want to bother people with uh loads of buttons , but on the other hand they need many buttons
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: so they don't have to get out of their seat .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: But {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: Because I think a market will be all kind of people . Elderly p el elderly , young people , so .
User Interface: But if if it's if it's international you should uh look in {disfmarker} think in Britain they have uh different things they can do with the T_V_ , or so uh that you can choose what you want to see . I dunno if you should uh take that in consideration , or that you just should aim for the normal T_V_s
Industrial Designer: Uh .
User Interface: that uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah I I understand .
Marketing: Yeah I think that's the better one ,
User Interface: And the B_B_C_ {gap} .
Marketing: because {disfmarker} I think if you you're going to target a lot of people and the whole world and only Britain then I think the cost will uh rise higher than the twelve fifty , I think .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No .
User Interface: Yes {gap} . Yeah , I don't know if the they have that anywhere else , though .
Marketing: I think the aim is better to use uh the whole world and Britain , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , we can leave that {gap} .
Industrial Designer: When I think of it uh
Marketing: Not that much .
Industrial Designer: I think the main idea uh of this remote remote control is uh to make it user friendly . So uh I think uh when p uh when uh the customers will buy this remote control , they already have uh the remote control which uh companies uh uh with uh the the standards uh remote control with which comes uh with the television .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm . Standard deliver .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So uh
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: it only has to have uh the most used buttons . You don't have to integrate the buttons to search the channels on your television .
User Interface: Well
Industrial Designer: In those {disfmarker} in that {disfmarker}
User Interface: but
Marketing: No but {disfmarker}
User Interface: but then you have to to find your other remote control if you want to search .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah , th it {vocalsound} it's {disfmarker} I think that's not {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah but I {disfmarker} but it is impossible to uh to accommodate uh accommodate uh all the buttons on the s on the difference {disfmarker} different televisions sets on one remote control . It's impossible .
User Interface: Yeah , that's right .
Marketing: Yeah , okay {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Because uh for example Sony television uh has the opportunity to s to make uh uh to make it possible for {disfmarker} to see on one side of the screen uh teletext , and on the other side uh just n uh regular television . Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: No .
User Interface: Yeah that's uh {gap} .
Marketing: I think n m n most televisions nowadays do this .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but uh they don't use the same signal , uh on remote control .
User Interface: Well not everywhere .
Marketing: So {gap} I think numerals .
Industrial Designer: Because you can't use a Panasonic uh remote control on a on a Philips television .
Marketing: Yeah , but then you have to choose the {disfmarker} always with r universal remotes you have to choose the code .
User Interface: Yeah , you can choose the code {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Okay . Okay . Okay ,
Marketing: You can use which which type of television you have . That's no problem . But I think like the two pages on the same screen , like teletext and normal television , that's that's nowadays standard , I think .
Industrial Designer: but {vocalsound} uh I think that most people uh th uh will buy the remote control because {vocalsound} because uh the first {disfmarker} they lost the one they lost first one
Marketing: Simplicity .
Industrial Designer: or the first one is broken ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so uh uh perhaps they have a got a an older television ,
Marketing: Yeah , yeah . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so that option is not {vocalsound} uh optional for those uh people .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah g available .
User Interface: But the people have a new television ,
Marketing: True .
User Interface: and c if you look into the future , then they want {disfmarker} will want the button , if their thing is broke .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So we should take that in consideration .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay , well
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: any more ideas ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh mm , no .
Project Manager: No ?
User Interface: Guess not .
Marketing: Of course .
Industrial Designer: Things'll come up .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , yeah well we have some time . Let's see what more I have to tell you . I don't think there is much left . Nope . We're starting to close . Um our next meeting uh will start {disfmarker} well we're a little bit early , but our next meeting will start in in thirty minutes .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: In the meantime uh there's time for some uh individual actions . Um , as you can see , the different roles have uh different tasks . And there's a ping .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Is it my laptop ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Stop the meeting now {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Ah well
User Interface: Yeah meeting will close in five minutes . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: that's good , five minutes and uh the meeting's over , uh right on schedule .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Um the Marketing Expert will uh will take a look at the user requirement specification . The User Interface Designer will work out the technical functions design . And this was the Interface Designer ? Or the Interaction Designer .
User Interface: Hmm hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Or what was it , I_D_ ?
User Interface: No interface .
Industrial Designer: No ?
Marketing: Interface .
Project Manager: Interface Designer , okay , first guess was right . Uh will take a look at the the working design .
Industrial Designer: No ,
User Interface: No
Industrial Designer: the Industrial Designer will take a look at the working design ,
User Interface: the {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and the in uh usability interaction {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: Industrial Designer , okay ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , okay . {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: sorry . {vocalsound} Let's just use the acronyms . Um and of course specific instructions uh will be sent to you uh through your personal coach .
User Interface: So {disfmarker} So I should look at uh what you should be able to do with the remote , or uh , or how {disfmarker} I don't really {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh well those instructions will be uh in the email you will receive uh shortly , I hope . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Right . Alright . {vocalsound} Me too . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And of course you have your own uh expertise .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well uh that was what I had to say .
Marketing: Uh-huh .
Project Manager: Uh are there any more questions ?
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: No .
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: No ? Okay well I think then we have to head uh back to our offices and uh start working .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: I have one question .
Project Manager: Okay , one question ?
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Marketing: Where does it says we have to make a remote , because I presumed {disfmarker} {gap} She didn't know who . Okay , no {vocalsound} , no problem .
Project Manager: Okay
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} No problem . Okay .
Project Manager: we're still going {gap} {vocalsound} .
Marketing: {vocalsound} No problem . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , well I expect everything will be much clearer with the instructions we will receive uh shortly .
User Interface: Alright .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay well uh see you all in about thirty minutes , then .
Industrial Designer: Alrighty . Okay .
Project Manager: Thank you very much .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} | |
doc_123 | Professor E: So . OK . Doesn't look like it crashed . That 's great .
Grad G: So I think maybe what 's causing it to crash is I keep starting it and then stopping it to see if it 's working . And so I think starting it and then stopping it and starting it again causes it to crash . So , I won't do that anymore .
Postdoc B: And it looks like you 've found a way of uh mapping the location to the {disfmarker} without having people have to give their names each time ?
PhD A: Sounds like an initialization thing .
Postdoc B: I mean it 's like you have the {disfmarker} So you know that {disfmarker}
Grad G: No .
Postdoc B: I mean , are you going to write down {pause} that I sat here ?
Grad G: I 'm gonna collect the digit forms and write it down .
Postdoc B: OK .
PhD C: Oh , OK .
Grad G: So {disfmarker} So they should be right with what 's on the digit forms . OK , so I 'll go ahead and start with digits . u And I should say that uh , you just pau you just read each line an and then pause briefly .
Professor E: And start by giving the transcript number .
PhD A: Tran
PhD D: Transcript {disfmarker} Uh . OK , OK .
PhD A: Oh sorry , go ahead .
Professor E: So uh , you see , Don , the unbridled excitement of the work that we have on this project .
Grad H: OK .
Professor E: It 's just uh {disfmarker}
Grad H: Umh .
Professor E: Uh , you know , it doesn't seem like a bad idea to have {comment} that information .
Grad G: And I 'm surprised I sort of {disfmarker} I 'm surprised I forgot that ,
Professor E: Yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} I think it 's some
Grad G: but uh I think that would be a good thing to add . After I just printed out a zillion of them .
Professor E: Yeah , well , that 's {disfmarker} Um , so I {disfmarker} I do have a {disfmarker} a an agenda suggestion . Uh , we {disfmarker} I think the things that we talk about in this meeting uh tend to be a mixture of uh procedural uh mundane things and uh research points and um I was thinking I think it was a meeting a couple of weeks ago that we {disfmarker} we spent much of the time talking about the mundane stuff cuz that 's easier to get out of the way and then we sort of drifted into the research and maybe five minutes into that Andreas had to leave . So {vocalsound} uh I 'm suggesting we turn it around and {disfmarker} and uh sort of we have {disfmarker} anybody has some mundane points that we could send an email later , uh hold them for a bit , and let 's talk about the {disfmarker} the research - y kind of things . Um , so um the one th one thing I know that we have on that is uh we had talked a {disfmarker} a couple weeks before um uh about the uh {disfmarker} the stuff you were doing with {disfmarker} with uh um uh l l attempting to locate events , we had a little go around trying to figure out what you meant by " events " but I think , you know , what we had meant by " events " I guess was uh points of overlap between speakers . But I th I gather from our discussion a little earlier today that you also mean uh interruptions with something else
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor E: like some other noise .
PhD D: Uh - huh . Yeah .
Professor E: Yes ? You mean that as an event also .
PhD D: To
Professor E: So at any rate you were {disfmarker} you 've {disfmarker} you 've done some work on that
PhD D: right .
Professor E: and um then the other thing would be it might be nice to have a preliminary discussion of some of the other uh research uh areas that uh we 're thinking about doing . Um , I think especially since you {disfmarker} you haven't been in {disfmarker} in these meetings for a little bit , maybe you have some discussion of some of the p the plausible things to look at now that we 're starting to get data , uh and one of the things I know that also came up uh is some discussions that {disfmarker} that uh {disfmarker} that uh Jane had with Lokendra uh about some {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} some um uh work about I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I d I {disfmarker} I don't want to try to say cuz I {disfmarker} I 'll say it wrong , but anyway some {disfmarker} some potential collaboration there about {disfmarker} about the {disfmarker} about the {disfmarker} working with these data .
PhD C: Oh . Sure .
Professor E: So . So , uh .
Grad G: You wanna just go around ?
Professor E: Uh . {pause} Well , I don't know if we {disfmarker} if this is sort of like everybody has something to contribute sort of thing , I think there 's just just a couple {disfmarker} a couple people primarily um but um Uh , wh why don't {disfmarker} Actually I think that {disfmarker} that last one I just said we could do fairly quickly so why don't you {disfmarker} you start with that .
Postdoc B: OK . Shall I {disfmarker} shall I just start ? OK .
Professor E: Yeah , just explain what it was .
Postdoc B: Um , so , uh , he was interested in the question of {disfmarker} you know , relating to his {disfmarker} to the research he presented recently , um of inference structures , and uh , the need to build in , um , this {disfmarker} this sort of uh mechanism for understanding of language . And he gave the example in his talk about how {pause} um , e a I 'm remembering it just off the top of my head right now , but it 's something about how um , i " Joe slipped " you know , " John had washed the floor " or something like that . And I don't have it quite right , but that kind of thing , where you have to draw the inference that , OK , there 's this time sequence , but also the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the causal aspects of the uh floor and {disfmarker} and how it might have been the cause of the fall and that um it was the other person who fell than the one who cleaned it and it {disfmarker} {comment} These sorts of things . So , I looked through the transcript that we have so far , {comment} and um , fou identified a couple different types of things of that type and um , one of them was something like uh , during the course of the transcript , um um , w we had gone through the part where everyone said which channel they were on and which device they were on , and um , the question was raised " Well , should we restart the recording at this point ? " And {disfmarker} and Dan Ellis said , " Well , we 're just so far ahead of the game right now {pause} we really don't need to " . Now , how would you interpret that without a lot of inference ? So , the inferences that are involved are things like , OK , so , how do you interpret " ahead of the game " ? You know . So it 's the {disfmarker} it 's {pause} i What you {disfmarker} what you int what you draw {disfmarker} you know , the conclusions that you need to draw are that space is involved in recording ,
Grad G: Hmm , metaphorically .
Postdoc B: that um , i that {pause} i we have enough space , and he continues , like " we 're so ahead of the game cuz now we have built - in downsampling " . So you have to sort of get the idea that um , " ahead of the game " is sp speaking with respect to space limitations , that um that in fact downsampling is gaining us enough space , and that therefore we can keep the recording we 've done so far . But there are a lot of different things like that .
Grad G: So , do you think his interest is in using this as {pause} a data source , or {pause} training material , or what ?
Professor E: Well , I {disfmarker} I should maybe interject to say this started off with a discussion that I had with him , so um we were trying to think of ways that his interests could interact with ours
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: and um uh I thought that if we were going to project into the future when we had a lot of data , uh and um such things might be useful for that in or before we invested too much uh effort into that he should uh , with Jane 's help , look into some of the data that we 're {disfmarker} already have and see , is there anything to this at all ?
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Is there any point which you think that , you know , you could gain some advantage and some potential use for it . Cuz it could be that you 'd look through it and you say " well , this is just the wrong {pause} task for {disfmarker} for him to pursue his {disfmarker} "
Grad G: Wrong , yeah .
Professor E: And {disfmarker} and uh I got the impression from your mail that in fact there was enough things like this just in the little sample that {disfmarker} that you looked at that {disfmarker} that it 's plausible at least .
Postdoc B: It 's possible . Uh , he was {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} We met and he was gonna go and uh you know , y look through them more systematically
Professor E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: and then uh meet again .
Professor E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: So it 's , you know , not a matter of a {disfmarker}
Professor E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: But , yeah , I think {disfmarker} I think it was optimistic .
Professor E: So anyway , that 's {disfmarker} that 's e a quite different thing from anything we 've talked about that , you know , might {disfmarker} might {disfmarker} might come out from some of this .
PhD C: But he can use text , basically . I mean , he 's talking about just using text
Postdoc B: That 's his major {disfmarker} I mentioned several that w had to do with implications drawn from intonational contours
PhD C: pretty much , or {disfmarker} ?
Postdoc B: and {pause} that wasn't as directly relevant to what he 's doing . He 's interested in these {disfmarker} these knowledge structures ,
PhD C: OK .
PhD D: Yeah , interesting .
Postdoc B: inferences that you draw {pause} i from {disfmarker}
Professor E: I mean , he certainly could use text , but we were in fact looking to see if there {disfmarker} is there {disfmarker} is there something in common between our interest in meetings and his interest in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in this stuff . So .
Grad G: And I imagine that transcripts of speech {disfmarker} I mean text that is speech {disfmarker} probably has more of those than sort of prepared writing . I {disfmarker} I don't know whether it would or not , but it seems like it would .
Professor E: I don't know , probably de probably depends on what the prepared writing was . But .
Postdoc B: Yeah , I don't think I would make that leap , because i in narratives , you know {disfmarker} I mean , if you spell out everything in a narrative , it can be really tedious ,
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc B: so .
Grad G: Yeah , I 'm just thinking , you know , when you 're {disfmarker} when you 're face to face , you have a lot of backchannel and {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: Oh . That aspect .
Grad G: Yeah . And so I think it 's just easier to do that sort of broad inference jumping if it 's face to face . I mean , so , if I just read that Dan was saying " we 're ahead of the game " {comment} in that {disfmarker} in that context ,
Postdoc B: Well {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad G: I might not realize that he was talking about disk space as opposed to anything else .
Postdoc B: I {disfmarker} you know , I {disfmarker} I had several that had to do with backchannels and this wasn't one of them .
Grad G: Uh - huh .
Postdoc B: This {disfmarker} this one really does um m make you leap from {disfmarker} So he said , you know , " we 're ahead of the game , w we have built - in downsampling " .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc B: And the inference , i if you had it written down , would be {disfmarker}
Grad G: I guess it would be the same .
Postdoc B: Uh - huh . But there are others that have backchannelling , it 's just he was less interested in those .
PhD F: Can I {disfmarker} Sorry to interrupt . Um , I f f f I 've {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} d A minute {disfmarker} uh , several minutes ago , I , like , briefly was {disfmarker} was not listening and {disfmarker} So who is " he " in this context ?
PhD C: Yeah , there 's a lot of pronoun {disfmarker}
PhD F: OK . So I was just realizing we 've {disfmarker} You guys have been talking about " he " um for at least uh , I don't know , three {disfmarker} three four minutes without ever mentioning the person 's name again .
PhD C: I believe it . Yeah . Actually to make it worse , {comment} uh , Morgan uses " you " and " you "
PhD F: So this is {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} gonna be a big , big problem if you want to later do uh , you know , indexing , or speech understanding of any sort .
Grad G: It 's in my notes .
PhD C: with gaze and no identification , or {disfmarker} I just wrote this down . Yeah , actually . Cuz Morgan will say well , " you had some ideas "
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD F: You just wrote this ?
PhD C: and he never said Li - He looked {disfmarker}
Grad G: Well , I think he 's doing that intentionally ,
PhD C: Right , so it 's great .
Grad G: aren't you ?
PhD C: So this is really great
PhD F: Right .
PhD C: because the thing is , because he 's looking at the per even for addressees in the conversation ,
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: I bet you could pick that up in the acoustics . Just because your gaze is also correlated with the directionality of your voice .
Professor E: Uh - huh . Could be .
Postdoc B: Can we
Professor E: Yeah . That would be tou
Grad G: Oh , that would be interesting .
PhD C: Yeah , so that , I mean , to even know um when {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah , if you have the P Z Ms you should be able to pick up what a person is looking at from their voice .
Grad G: Well , especially with Morgan , with the way we have the microphones arranged . I 'm sort of right on axis and it would be very hard to tell .
PhD C: Right .
Grad G: Uh .
Postdoc B: Oh , but you 'd have the {disfmarker}
PhD C: Put Morgan always like this
Postdoc B: You 'd have fainter {disfmarker}
PhD C: and {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: Wouldn't you get fainter reception out here ?
Professor E: Well , these {disfmarker}
Grad G: Sure , but I think if I 'm talking like this ? Right now I 'm looking at Jane and talking , now I 'm looking at Chuck and talking , I don't think the microphones would pick up that difference .
PhD C: But you don't have this {disfmarker} this problem .
Postdoc B: I see .
PhD C: Morgan is the one who does this most .
Grad G: So if I 'm talking at you , or I 'm talking at you .
Professor E: I probably been affect No , I th I think I 've been affected by too many conversations where we were talking about lawyers and talking about {disfmarker} and concerns about " oh gee is somebody going to say something bad ? " and so on .
Grad G: Lawyers .
Professor E: And so I {disfmarker} so I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm tending to stay away from people 's names even though uh {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: I am too .
PhD C: Even though you could pick up later on , just from the acoustics who you were t who you were looking at .
Postdoc B: I am too .
Grad G: And we did mention who " he " was .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD F: Right , but I missed it .
Grad G: Early in the conversation .
PhD F: But {disfmarker} it was uh {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah , yeah .
Professor E: Yeah .
Grad G: Do {disfmarker} Sh - Can I say
Professor E: Yeah . No no , there 's {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah .
Grad G: or {disfmarker} or is that just too sensitive ?
Professor E: No no , it isn't sensitive at all .
Postdoc B: Well {disfmarker}
Professor E: I was just {disfmarker} I was just {disfmarker} I was overreacting just because we 've been talking about it .
Postdoc B: And in fact , it is {disfmarker} it is {disfmarker} it is sensitive .
PhD C: No , but that {disfmarker} it 's interesting .
Professor E: It 's OK to {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: I {disfmarker} I came up with something from the Human Subjects people that I wanted to mention . I mean , it fits into the m area of the mundane , but they did say {disfmarker} You know , I asked her very specifically about this clause of how , um , you know , it says " no individuals will be identified uh , " in any publication using the data . " OK , well , individuals being identified , let 's say you have a {disfmarker} a snippet that says , " Joe s uh thinks such - and - such about {disfmarker} about this field , but I think he 's wrongheaded . " Now I mean , we 're {disfmarker} we 're gonna be careful not to have the " wrongheaded " part in there , but {disfmarker} but you know , let 's say we say , you know , " Joe used to think so - and - so about this area , in his publication he says that but I think he 's changed his mind . " or whatever . Then the issue of {disfmarker} of being able to trace Joe , because we know he 's well - known in this field , and all this and {disfmarker} and tie it to the speaker , whose name was just mentioned a moment ago , can be sensitive .
Professor E: b But I {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: So I think it 's really {disfmarker} really kind of adaptive and wise to not mention names any more than we have to because if there 's a slanderous aspect to it , then how much to we wanna be able to have to remove ?
Professor E: Yeah , well , there 's that . But I {disfmarker} I mean I think also to some extent it 's just educating the Human Subjects people , in a way , because there 's {disfmarker} If uh {disfmarker} You know , there 's court transcripts , there 's {disfmarker} there 's transcripts of radio shows {disfmarker} I mean people say people 's names all the time . So I think it {disfmarker} it can't be bad to say people 's names . It 's just that {disfmarker} i I mean you 're right that there 's more poten If we never say anybody 's name , then there 's no chance of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of slandering anybody ,
PhD C: But , then it won't {disfmarker} I mean , if we {disfmarker} if we {disfmarker}
Professor E: but {disfmarker}
Grad G: It 's not a meeting .
PhD C: Yeah . I mean we should do whatever 's natural in a meeting if {disfmarker} if we weren't being recorded .
Professor E: Yeah . Right , so I {disfmarker} So my behavior is probably not natural .
PhD C: " If Person X {disfmarker} "
Professor E: So .
Postdoc B: Well , my feeling on it was that it wasn't really important who said it , you know .
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD F: Well , if you ha since you have to um go over the transcripts later anyway , you could make it one of the jobs of the {pause} people who do that to mark
Grad G: Well , we t we t we talked about this during the anon anonymization .
PhD F: Right .
Grad G: If we wanna go through and extract from the audio and the written every time someone says a name . And I thought that our conclusion was that we didn't want to do that .
Professor E: Yeah , we really can't . But a actually , I 'm sorry . I really would like to push {disfmarker} finish this off .
Postdoc B: I understand . No I just {disfmarker} I just was suggesting that it 's not a bad policy p potentially .
Professor E: So it 's {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: So , we need to talk about this later .
Professor E: Yeah , I di I didn't intend it an a policy though .
Postdoc B: Uh - huh .
Professor E: It was {disfmarker} it was just it was just unconscious {disfmarker} well , semi - conscious behavior . I sorta knew I was doing it but it was {disfmarker}
PhD F: Well , I still don't know who " he " is .
Professor E: I {disfmarker} I do I don't remember who " he " is .
PhD C: No , you have to say , you still don't know who " he " is , with that prosody .
Professor E: Ah . Uh , we were talking about Dan at one point {comment} and we were talking about Lokendra at another point .
Postdoc B: Yeah , depends on which one you mean .
Professor E: And I don't {disfmarker} I don't remember which {disfmarker} which part .
PhD F: Oh .
PhD C: It 's ambiguous , so it 's OK .
Professor E: Uh , I think {disfmarker}
Grad G: Well , the inference structures was Lokendra .
PhD F: But no . The inference stuff was {disfmarker} was {disfmarker} was Lokendra .
Professor E: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
PhD F: OK . That makes sense , yeah .
PhD C: And the downsampling must have been Dan .
Professor E: Um {disfmarker}
Grad G: Yeah .
Professor E: Good {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD C: It 's an inference .
Professor E: Yeah , you could do all these inferences , yeah .
Grad G: Yeah .
Professor E: Yeah . Um , I {disfmarker} I would like to move it into {disfmarker} into uh what Jose uh has been doing
Postdoc B: Yeah .
Professor E: because he 's actually been doing something .
PhD D: Uh - huh . OK .
Professor E: So . {vocalsound} Right .
PhD F: As opposed to the rest of us .
PhD D: Well - {comment} {vocalsound} OK . I {disfmarker} I remind that me {disfmarker} my first objective eh , in the project is to {disfmarker} to study difference parameters to {disfmarker} to find a {disfmarker} a good solution to detect eh , the overlapping zone in eh speech recorded . But eh , {vocalsound} tsk , {comment} {vocalsound} ehhh {comment} In that way {comment} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I begin to {disfmarker} to study and to analyze the ehn {disfmarker} the recorded speech eh the different session to {disfmarker} to find and to locate and to mark eh the {disfmarker} the different overlapping zone . And eh so eh I was eh {disfmarker} I am transcribing the {disfmarker} the first session and I {disfmarker} I have found eh , eh one thousand acoustic events , eh besides the overlapping zones , eh I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean the eh breaths eh aspiration eh , eh , talk eh , eh , clap , eh {disfmarker} {comment} I don't know what is the different names eh you use to {disfmarker} to name the {disfmarker} the {pause} n speech
PhD A: Nonspeech sounds ?
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad G: Oh , I don't think we 've been doing it at that level of detail . So .
PhD D: Yeah . Eh , {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I do I don't need to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to mmm {vocalsound} {disfmarker} to m to label the {disfmarker} the different acoustic , but I prefer because eh I would like to {disfmarker} to study if eh , I {disfmarker} I will find eh , eh , a good eh parameters eh to detect overlapping I would like to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to test these parameters eh with the {disfmarker} another eh , eh acoustic events , to nnn {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to eh {disfmarker} to find what is the ehm {disfmarker} the false {disfmarker} eh , the false eh hypothesis eh , nnn , which eh are produced when we use the {disfmarker} the ehm {disfmarker} this eh parameter {disfmarker} eh I mean pitch eh , eh , difference eh , feature {disfmarker}
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: You know {disfmarker} I think some of these um that are the nonspeech overlapping events may be difficult even for humans to tell that there 's two there .
Grad G: So it was {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: I mean , if it 's a tapping sound , you wouldn't necessarily {disfmarker} or , you know , something like that , it 'd be {disfmarker} it might be hard to know that it was two separate events .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
Grad G: Well {disfmarker} You weren't talking about just overlaps
PhD D: Ye
Grad G: were you ? You were just talking about acoustic events .
PhD D: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I t I t I talk eh about eh acoustic events in general ,
Grad G: Someone starts , someone stops {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD A: Oh .
PhD D: but eh my {disfmarker} my objective eh will be eh to study eh overlapping zone .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Eh ? {comment} n Eh in twelve minutes I found eh , eh one thousand acoustic events .
Professor E: How many overlaps were there uh in it ? No no , how many of them were the overlaps of speech , though ?
PhD D: How many ? Eh almost eh three hundred eh in one session
Grad G: Oh , God !
PhD D: in five {disfmarker} eh in forty - five minutes .
PhD A: Three hundred overlapping speech {disfmarker}
PhD D: Alm - Three hundred overlapping zone .
Grad G: Ugh .
PhD C: Overlapping speech .
PhD D: With the overlapping zone , overlapping speech {disfmarker} speech what eh different duration .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Sure .
Postdoc B: Does this {disfmarker} ? So if you had an overlap involving three people , how many times was that counted ?
PhD D: Yeah , three people , two people . Eh , um I would like to consider eh one people with difference noise eh in the background , be
Professor E: No no , but I think what she 's asking is {pause} if at some particular for some particular stretch you had three people talking , instead of two , did you call that one event ?
PhD D: Oh . Oh . Yeah . I consider one event eh for th for that eh for all the zone . This {disfmarker} th I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I con I consider {disfmarker} I consider eh an acoustic event , the overlapping zone , the period where three speaker or eh {disfmarker} are talking together .
Grad G: Well {disfmarker} So let 's {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: For
Grad G: So let 's say me and Jane are talking at the same time , and then Liz starts talking also over all of us . How many events would that be ?
PhD D: So - I don't understand .
Grad G: So , two people are talking , {comment} and then a third person starts talking .
PhD D: Yeah ?
Grad G: Is there an event right here ?
PhD D: Eh no . No no . For me is the overlapping zone , because {disfmarker} because you {disfmarker} you have s you have more one {disfmarker} eh , more one voice eh , eh produced in a {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in a moment .
Professor E: I see .
Grad G: So i if two or more people are talking .
Professor E: OK . Yeah . So I think {disfmarker} Yeah . We just wanted to understand how you 're defining it .
PhD D: Yeah . If
Professor E: So then , in the region between {disfmarker} since there {disfmarker} there is some continuous region , in between regions where there is only one person speaking .
PhD D: Uh - huh .
Professor E: And one contiguous region like that you 're calling an event .
PhD D: Uh - huh .
Professor E: Is it {disfmarker} Are you calling the beginning or the end of it the event ,
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor E: or are you calling the entire length of it the event ?
PhD D: I consider the {disfmarker} the , nnn {disfmarker} the nnn , nnn {disfmarker} eh , the entirety eh , eh , all {disfmarker} all the time there were {disfmarker} the voice has overlapped .
Professor E: OK .
PhD D: This is the idea . But eh I {disfmarker} I don't distinguish between the {disfmarker} the numbers of eh speaker . Uh , I 'm not considering {vocalsound} eh the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} ehm {vocalsound} eh , the fact of eh , eh , for example , what did you say ? Eh at first eh , eh two talkers are uh , eh speaking , and eh , eh a third person eh join to {disfmarker} to that . For me , it 's eh {disfmarker} it 's eh , all overlap zone , with eh several numbers of speakers is eh , eh the same acoustic event . Wi - but {disfmarker} uh , without any mark between the zone {disfmarker} of the overlapping zone with two speakers eh speaking together , and the zone with the three speakers .
Postdoc B: That would j just be one .
PhD D: It {disfmarker} One . One .
Postdoc B: OK .
PhD D: Eh , with eh , a beginning mark and the ending mark . Because eh {vocalsound} for me , is the {disfmarker} is the zone with eh some kind of eh distortion the spectral .
Professor E: Got it .
PhD D: I don't mind {disfmarker} By the moment , by the moment .
Grad G: Well , but {disfmarker} But you could imagine that three people talking has a different spectral characteristic than two .
PhD D: I {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} Yeah , but eh {disfmarker} but eh I have to study . {comment} What will happen in a general way ,
Professor E: Could .
Grad G: So . You had to start somewhere .
Professor E: Yeah . We just w
PhD C: So there 's a lot of overlap .
PhD D: I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I don't know what eh will {disfmarker} will happen with the {disfmarker}
Grad G: Yep .
PhD C: So .
Grad G: That 's a lot of overlap ,
PhD D: Yeah ?
Professor E: So again , that 's {disfmarker} that 's three {disfmarker} three hundred in forty - five minutes that are {disfmarker} that are speakers , just speakers .
Grad G: yeah , for forty - five minutes .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor E: Uh - huh . OK . Yeah .
Postdoc B: But a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a th
Professor E: So that 's about eight per minute .
Postdoc B: But a thousand events in twelve minutes , that 's {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah , {pause} but {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD C: But that can include taps .
PhD D: But {disfmarker}
Professor E: Uh . Yeah .
Postdoc B: Well , but a thousand taps in eight minutes is a l in twelve minutes is a lot .
PhD D: General .
PhD C: Actually {disfmarker}
PhD D: I {disfmarker} I con I consider {disfmarker} I consider acoustic events eh , the silent too .
Postdoc B: Silent .
Grad G: Silence starting or silence ending {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah , silent , ground to {disfmarker} bec to detect {disfmarker} eh because I consider acoustic event all the things are not eh speech .
PhD C: Oh , OK .
Professor E: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Oh .
PhD D: In ge in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in a general point of view .
PhD C: Oh .
Professor E: OK , so how many of those thousand were silence ?
PhD C: Alright .
PhD D: in the per
PhD F: Not speech {disfmarker} not speech or too much speech .
PhD D: Too much speech .
Professor E: Right . So how many of those thousand were silence , silent sections ?
PhD D: Yeah . Uh silent , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I haven't the {disfmarker} eh I {disfmarker} I would like to {disfmarker} to do a stylistic study
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD D: and give you eh with the report eh from eh the {disfmarker} the study from the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the session {disfmarker} one session .
Professor E: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD D: And I {disfmarker} I found that eh another thing . When eh {vocalsound} eh I w I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I was eh look at eh nnn , the difference speech file , um , for example , eh if eh we use the ehm {disfmarker} the mixed file , to {disfmarker} to transcribe , the {disfmarker} the events and the words , I {disfmarker} I saw that eh the eh speech signal , collected by the eh this kind of mike {disfmarker} eh of this kind of mike , eh are different from the eh mixed signal eh , we eh {disfmarker} collected by headphone .
Grad G: Yep .
PhD D: And {disfmarker} It 's right .
Professor E: Yeah .
Grad G: Right .
PhD D: But the problem is {vocalsound} the following . The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I knew that eh the signal eh , eh would be different , but eh the {disfmarker} the problem is eh , eh we eh detected eh difference events in the speech file eh collected by {disfmarker} by that mike uh qui compared with the mixed file . And so if {disfmarker} when you transcribe eh only eh using the nnn {disfmarker} the mixed file , it 's possible {disfmarker} eh if you use the transcription to evaluate a different system , it 's possible you eh {disfmarker} in the eh i and you use the eh speech file collected by the eh fet mike , to eh {disfmarker} to nnn {disfmarker} to do the experiments {pause} with the {disfmarker} the system ,
Professor E: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: Right .
PhD D: its possible to evaluate eh , eh {disfmarker} or to consider eh acoustic events that {disfmarker} which you marked eh in the mixed file , but eh they don't appear in the eh speech signal eh collected by the {disfmarker} by the mike .
Grad G: Right . The {disfmarker} the reason that I generated the mixed file was for IBM to do word level transcription , not speech event transcription .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah . Oh , it 's a good idea . It 's a good idea I think .
Grad G: So I agree that if someone wants to do speech event transcription , that the mixed signals here {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad G: I mean , if I 'm tapping on the table , you it 's not gonna show up on any of the mikes , but it 's gonna show up rather loudly in the PZM .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . So and I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I say eh that eh , eh , or this eh only because eh I c I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} in my opinion , it 's necessary to eh {disfmarker} to eh {disfmarker} to put the transcription on the speech file , collected by the objective signal .
Grad G: So .
PhD D: I mean the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the signal collected by the {disfmarker} eh , the real mike in the future , in the prototype to {disfmarker} to eh correct the initial eh segmentation eh with the eh real speech
Professor E: Mm - hmm . The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the far - field , yeah .
PhD D: you have to {disfmarker} to analyze {disfmarker} you have to {disfmarker} to process . Because I {disfmarker} I found a difference .
Professor E: Yeah , well , just {disfmarker} I mean , just in that {disfmarker} that one s ten second , or whatever it was , example that Adam had that {disfmarker} that we {disfmarker} we passed on to others a few months ago , there was that business where I g I guess it was Adam and Jane were talking at the same time and {disfmarker} and uh , in the close - talking mikes you couldn't hear the overlap , and in the distant mike you could . So yeah , it 's clear that if you wanna study {disfmarker} if you wanna find all the places where there were overlap , it 's probably better to use a distant mike .
PhD F: That 's good .
Professor E: On the other hand , there 's other phenomena that are going on at the same time for which it might be useful to look at the close - talking mikes ,
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD C: But why can't you use the combination of the close - talking mikes , time aligned ?
Professor E: so it 's {disfmarker}
Grad G: If you use the combination of the close - talking mikes , you would hear Jane interrupting me , but you wouldn't hear the paper rustling . And so if you 're interested in {disfmarker}
PhD C: I {disfmarker} I mean if you 're interested in speakers overlapping other speakers and not the other kinds of nonspeech , that 's not a problem ,
Professor E: Some {comment} of it 's masking {disfmarker} masked .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: Were you interrupting him or was he interrupting you ?
Professor E: Right .
PhD C: right ?
Grad G: Right .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad G: Although the other issue is that the {pause} mixed close - talking mikes {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm doing weird normalizations and things like that .
PhD C: But it 's known .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD C: I mean , the normalization you do is over the whole conversation
Grad G: Yep .
PhD C: isn't it , over the whole meeting .
Grad G: Right . Yep .
PhD C: So if you wanted to study people overlapping people , that 's not a problem .
PhD D: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think eh I saw the nnn {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} eh but eh I eh {disfmarker} I have eh any results . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I saw the {disfmarker} the speech file collected by eh the fet mike , and eh eh signal eh to eh {disfmarker} to noise eh relation is eh low . It 's low .
Professor E: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: It 's very low . You would comp if we compare it with eh the headphone .
Grad G: Yep .
PhD D: And I {disfmarker} I found that nnn {disfmarker} that eh , {vocalsound} ehm , pr probably ,
Grad G: Did {disfmarker} Did you
PhD D: I 'm not sure eh by the moment , but it 's {disfmarker} it 's probably that eh a lot of eh , {vocalsound} eh for example , in the overlapping zone , on eh {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in several eh parts of the files where you {disfmarker} you can find eh , eh {vocalsound} eh , smooth eh eh speech eh from eh one eh eh talker in the {disfmarker} in the meeting ,
Professor E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD D: it 's probably in {disfmarker} in that eh {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in those files you {disfmarker} you can not find {disfmarker} you can not process because eh it 's confused with {disfmarker} with noise .
Professor E: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: And there are {vocalsound} a lot of I think . But I have to study with more detail . But eh my idea is to {disfmarker} to process only {pause} nnn , this eh {disfmarker} nnn , this kind of s of eh speech . Because I think it 's more realistic . I 'm not sure it 's a good idea , but eh {disfmarker}
Professor E: No {disfmarker} i
Grad G: Well , it 's more realistic but it 'll {disfmarker} it 'll be a lot harder .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor E: Well , it 'd be hard , but on the other hand as you point out , if your {disfmarker} if i if {disfmarker} if your concern is to get uh the overlapping people {disfmarker} people 's speech , you will {disfmarker} you will get that somewhat better .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor E: Um , Are you making any use {disfmarker} uh you were {disfmarker} you were working with th the data that had already been transcribed .
PhD D: With {disfmarker} By Jane .
Professor E: Does it uh {disfmarker} Yes .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor E: Now um did you make any use of that ? See I was wondering cuz we st we have these ten hours of other stuff that is not yet transcribed .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor E: Do you {disfmarker}
PhD D: The {disfmarker} the transcription by Jane , t eh i eh , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I want to use to {disfmarker} to nnn , {vocalsound} eh to put {disfmarker} i i it 's a reference for me . But eh the transcription {disfmarker} eh for example , I {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm not interested in the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the words , transcription words , eh transcribed eh eh in {disfmarker} eh follow in the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} in the {disfmarker} in the speech file , but eh eh Jane eh for example eh put a mark eh at the beginning eh of each eh talker , in the {disfmarker} in the meeting , um eh she {disfmarker} she nnn includes information about the zone where eh there are eh {disfmarker} there is an overlapping zone . But eh there isn't any {disfmarker} any mark , time {disfmarker} temporal mark , to {disfmarker} to c eh {disfmarker} to mmm {vocalsound} {disfmarker} e - heh , to label {comment} the beginning and the end of the {disfmarker} of the
Professor E: Mm - hmm . OK . Right , so she is {disfmarker}
PhD D: ta I 'm {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think eh we need this information to
Professor E: Right . So the twelve {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} it took you twelve hours {disfmarker} of course this included maybe some {disfmarker} some time where you were learning about what {disfmarker} what you wanted to do , but {disfmarker} but uh , it took you something like twelve hours to mark the forty - five minutes , your
Grad G: Twelve minutes .
PhD D: Twelve minutes .
Professor E: s Twelve minutes !
PhD D: Twelve minutes . Twelve .
Professor E: I thought you did forty - five minutes of {disfmarker}
PhD D: No , forty - five minutes is the {disfmarker} is the session , all the session .
Postdoc B: Oh .
Professor E: Oh , you haven't done the whole session .
PhD D: Yeah , all is the {vocalsound} the session .
Professor E: This is just twelve minutes .
PhD D: Tw - twelve hours of work to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to segment eh and label eh twelve minutes from a session of part {disfmarker} of f
Professor E: Oh . So {comment} let me back up again . So the {disfmarker} when you said there were three hundred speaker overlaps ,
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor E: that 's in twelve minutes ?
PhD D: No no no . I {disfmarker} I consider all the {disfmarker} all the session because eh I {disfmarker} I count the nnn {disfmarker} the nnn {disfmarker} the overlappings marked by {disfmarker} by Jane ,
Professor E: Oh , OK .
Postdoc B: Oh , I see .
PhD D: in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the {pause} fin in {disfmarker} in the {pause} forty - five minutes .
Professor E: OK . So it 's three hundred in forty - five minutes , but you have {disfmarker} you have time uh , uh marked {disfmarker} twelve minute {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the um overlaps in twelve minutes of it .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor E: Got it .
PhD F: So , can I ask {disfmarker} {vocalsound} can I ask whether you found {disfmarker} uh , you know , how accurate uh Jane 's uh uh labels were as far as {disfmarker}
Grad G: Well , not just the overlaps , everything .
PhD F: you know , did she miss some overlaps ? or did she n ?
PhD D: But , by {disfmarker} by the moment , I {disfmarker} I don't compare , my {disfmarker} my temporal mark with eh Jane , but eh I {disfmarker} I want to do it . Because eh eh i per perhaps I have eh errors in the {disfmarker} in the marks , I {disfmarker} and if I {disfmarker} I compare with eh Jane , it 's probably I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I can correct and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} to get eh eh a more accurately eh eh transcription in the file .
Professor E: Yeah .
Grad G: Well , also Jane {disfmarker} Jane was doing word level .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor E: Yeah .
Grad G: So we weren't concerned with {comment} exactly when an overlap started and stopped .
PhD F: Right . Right .
PhD C: Well , not only a word level , but actually
PhD D: Well {disfmarker}
PhD F: I 'm expect I 'm not expecting {disfmarker}
PhD D: No , it 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: I mean , you didn't need to show the exact point of interruption , you just were showing at the level of the phrase or the level of the speech spurt , or {disfmarker}
Grad G: Right .
Professor E: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: Yep .
Postdoc B: Well {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah .
Postdoc B: Well , yeah , b yeah , I would say time bin . So my {disfmarker} my goal is to get words with reference to a time bin , {pause} beginning and end point .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD C: Right .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc B: And {disfmarker} and sometimes , you know , it was like you could have an overlap where someone said something in the middle ,
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc B: but , yeah , w it just wasn't important for our purposes to have it that {disfmarker} i disrupt that unit in order to have , you know , a the words in the order in which they were spoken , it would have {disfmarker} it would have been hard with the interface that we have .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Now , my {disfmarker} a Adam 's working on a of course , on a revised overlapping interface ,
PhD D: Uh - huh .
Grad G: Right .
PhD D: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} it 's a good eh work ,
Postdoc B: but {disfmarker}
PhD D: but eh I think we need eh eh more information .
PhD F: No , of course .
Postdoc B: Yeah .
PhD F: I expect you to find more overlaps than {disfmarker} than Jane
Grad G: Always need more for {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: Yeah .
PhD D: No , no . I {disfmarker} I have to go to {disfmarker}
PhD F: because you 're looking at it at a much more detailed level .
PhD D: I want eh {disfmarker} I wanted to eh compare the {disfmarker} the transcription .
Professor E: I have {disfmarker}
Grad G: But if it takes sixty to one {disfmarker}
Professor E: Well , I but I have a suggestion about that . Um , obviously this is very , very time - consuming , and you 're finding lots of things which I 'm sure are gonna be very interesting , but in the interests of making progress , uh might I s how {disfmarker} how would it affect your time if you only marked speaker overlaps ?
PhD D: Only .
Professor E: Yes .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor E: Do not mark any other events ,
PhD D: Uh - huh .
Professor E: but only mark speaker {disfmarker} Do you think that would speed it up quite a bit ?
PhD D: OK . OK . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I w I {disfmarker} I wanted to {disfmarker}
Professor E: Do y do you think that would speed it up ? Uh , speed up your {disfmarker} your {disfmarker} your marking ?
PhD D: nnn , I don't understand very .
Professor E: It took you a long time {pause} to mark twelve minutes .
PhD D: Yeah . Oh , yeah , yeah .
Professor E: Now , my suggestion was for the other thirty - three {disfmarker}
PhD D: On - only to mark {disfmarker} only to mark overlapping zone , but {disfmarker}
Professor E: Yeah , and my question is , if you did that , if you followed my suggestion , would it take much less time ?
PhD D: Oh , yeah . Sure .
Professor E: Yeah OK .
PhD D: Yeah sure .
Professor E: Then I think it 's a good idea .
PhD D: Sure sure .
Professor E: Then I think it 's a good idea , because it
PhD D: Sure , because I {disfmarker} I need a lot of time to {disfmarker} to put the label or to do that . Yeah .
Professor E: Yeah , I mean , we we know that there 's noise .
Grad G: And
PhD D: Uh - huh .
Professor E: There 's {disfmarker} there 's uh continual noise uh from fans and so forth , and there is uh more impulsive noise from uh taps and so forth
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor E: and {disfmarker} and something in between with paper rustling . We know that all that 's there and it 's a g worthwhile thing to study , but obviously it takes a lot of time to mark all of these things .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor E: Whereas th i I would think that uh you {disfmarker} we can study more or less as a distinct phenomenon the overlapping of people talking .
PhD D: Uh - huh . OK . OK .
Professor E: So . Then you can get the {disfmarker} Cuz you need {disfmarker} If it 's three hundred uh {disfmarker} i i it sounds like you probably only have fifty or sixty or seventy events right now that are really {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor E: And {disfmarker} and you need to have a lot more than that to have any kind of uh even visual sense of {disfmarker} of what 's going on , much less any kind of reasonable statistics .
Grad G: Right .
PhD C: Now , why do you need to mark speaker overlap by hand if you can infer it from the relative energy in the {disfmarker}
Grad G: Well , that 's {disfmarker} That 's what I was gonna bring up .
PhD C: I mean , you shouldn't need to do this p completely by hand ,
Professor E: Um , OK , yeah . So let 's back up because you weren't here for an earlier conversation .
PhD C: right ? I 'm sorry .
Professor E: So the idea was that what he was going to be doing was experimenting with different measures such as the increase in energy , such as the energy in the LPC residuals , such as {disfmarker} I mean there 's a bunch of things {disfmarker} I mean , increased energy is - is sort of an obvious one .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . In the far - field mike .
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD C: Oh , OK .
Professor E: Um , and uh , it 's not obvious , I mean , you could {disfmarker} you could do the dumbest thing and get {disfmarker} get it ninety percent of the time . But when you start going past that and trying to do better , it 's not obvious what combination of features is gonna give you the {disfmarker} you know , the right detector . So the idea is to have some ground truth first . And so the i the idea of the manual marking was to say " OK this , i you know , it 's {disfmarker} it 's really here " .
PhD A: But I think Liz is saying why not get it out of the transcripts ?
PhD C: What I mean is {pause} get it from the close - talking mikes .
Professor E: Uh , yeah .
PhD C: A or ge get a first pass from those ,
Professor E: We t we t w we t we talked about that .
PhD C: and then go through sort of {disfmarker} It 'd be a lot faster probably to {disfmarker}
PhD F: And you can {disfmarker}
Grad G: Yeah , that 's his , uh {disfmarker}
Professor E: We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we talked about that . s But so it 's a bootstrapping thing and the thing is ,
PhD C: Yeah , I just {disfmarker}
Professor E: the idea was , i we i i we thought it would be useful for him to look at the data anyway , and {disfmarker} and then whatever he could mark would be helpful ,
PhD C: Right .
Professor E: and we could {disfmarker} Uh it 's a question of what you bootstrap from . You know , do you bootstrap from a simple measurement which is right most of the time and then you g do better , or do you bootstrap from some human being looking at it and then {disfmarker} then do your simple measurements , uh from the close - talking mike . I mean , even with the close - talking mike you 're not gonna get it right all the time .
PhD C: Well , that 's what I wonder , because um {disfmarker} or how bad it is ,
Professor E: Well
PhD C: be um , because that would be interesting
Grad G: I 'm working on a program to do that , and {disfmarker}
PhD C: especially because the bottleneck is the transcription . Right ? I mean , we 've got a lot more data than we have transcriptions for . We have the audio data , we have the close - talking mike ,
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD C: so I mean it seems like one kind of project that 's not perfect , but {disfmarker} um , that you can get the training data for pretty quickly is , you know , if you infer form the close - talking mikes where the on - off points are of speech ,
Professor E: Right , we discussed that .
PhD C: you know , how can we detect that from a far - field ?
Grad G: And {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: Oh .
Grad G: I 've {disfmarker} I 've written a program to do that ,
PhD C: OK , I 'm sorry I missed the {disfmarker}
Grad G: and it , uh {disfmarker}
Professor E: It 's OK .
Grad G: and {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} but it 's {disfmarker} it 's doing something very , very simple . It just takes a threshold , based on {disfmarker} on the volume ,
PhD C: Uh - huh .
PhD F: Or you can set the threshold low and then weed out the false alarms by hand .
PhD C: Right , by hand . Yeah .
PhD F: Yeah .
Grad G: um , and then it does a median filter , and then it looks for runs . And , it seems to work , I 've {disfmarker} I 'm sort of fiddling with the parameters , to get it to actually generate something , and I haven't {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} what I 'm working on {disfmarker} was working on {disfmarker} was getting it to a form where we can import it into the user interface that we have , {pause} into Transcriber . And so {disfmarker} I told {disfmarker} I said it would take about a day . I 've worked on it for about half a day ,
Grad H: I have to go .
Grad G: so give me another half day and I we 'll have something we can play with .
PhD C: OK .
Professor E: See , this is where we really need the Meeting Recorder query stuff to be working , because we 've had these meetings and we 've had this discussion about this , and I 'm sort of remembering a little bit about what we decided ,
PhD C: Right . I 'm sorry . I just {disfmarker}
Professor E: but I couldn't remember all of it .
PhD C: It
Professor E: So , I think it was partly that , you know , give somebody a chance to actually look at the data and see what these are like , partly that we have e some ground truth to compare against , you know , when {disfmarker} when he {disfmarker} he gets his thing going ,
Grad G: But {disfmarker}
Professor E: uh , and {disfmarker}
PhD C: Well , it 's definitely good to have somebody look at it . I was just thinking as a way to speed up you know , the amount of {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: That was {disfmarker} that was exactly the notion that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that we discussed .
PhD C: OK .
Grad G: Thanks .
Postdoc B: Another thing we discussed was um that {disfmarker}
PhD C: It looks good .
Professor E: So .
PhD C: I 'll be in touch . Thanks .
Professor E: S See ya . Yeah .
Postdoc B: Was that um there m {pause} there was this already a script I believe uh that Dan had written , {comment} that uh handle bleedthrough , I mean cuz you have this {disfmarker} this close {disfmarker} you have contamination from other people who speak loudly .
Grad G: Yeah , and I haven't tried using that . It would probably help the program that I 'm doing to first feed it through that . It 's a cross - correlation filter . So I {disfmarker} I haven't tried that , but that {disfmarker} If {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it might be something {disfmarker} it might be a good way of cleaning it up a little .
Postdoc B: So , some thought of maybe having {disfmarker} Yeah , having that be a preprocessor and then run it through yours .
Grad G: Exactly . Yep .
Professor E: But {disfmarker} but that 's a refinement
Postdoc B: That 's what we were discussing .
Professor E: and I think we wanna see {disfmarker} try the simple thing first , cuz you add this complex thing up uh afterwards that does something good y y yo you sort of wanna see what the simple thing does first .
Grad G: Yep .
Professor E: But uh , having {disfmarker} having somebody have some experience , again , with {disfmarker} with uh {disfmarker} with marking it from a human standpoint , we 're {disfmarker} I mean , I don't expect Jose to {disfmarker} to do it for uh f fifty hours of {disfmarker} {comment} of speech , but I mean we {disfmarker} {comment} if uh {disfmarker} if he could speed up what he was doing by just getting the speaker overlaps so that we had it , say , for forty - five minutes , then at least we 'd have three hundred examples of it .
PhD D: Yeah . Sure . Sure .
Professor E: And when {disfmarker} when uh Adam was doing his automatic thing he could then compare to that and see what it was different .
PhD C: Oh yeah , definitely .
PhD A: You know , I did {disfmarker} I did uh something almost identical to this at one of my previous jobs , and it works pretty well . I mean , i almost exactly what you described , an energy detector with a median filter , you look for runs . And uh , you know , you can {disfmarker}
Grad G: It seemed like the right thing to do .
PhD A: Yeah . I mean , you {disfmarker} you can get y I mean , you get them pretty close .
Grad G: That was with zero literature search .
PhD A: And so I think doing that to generate these possibilities and then going through and saying yes or no on them would be a quick way to {disfmarker} to do it .
Grad G: That 's good validation .
PhD A: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Is this proprietary ?
PhD A: Uh . {comment} No . No .
Grad G: Yeah , do you have a patent on it ?
PhD A: It was when I was working for the government .
Professor E: Oh , then everybody owns it . It 's the people .
Postdoc B: Well , I mean , is this something that we could just co - opt , or is it {disfmarker} ?
PhD A: Nah .
Postdoc B: No . OK .
Professor E: Well , i i i he 's pretty close , anyway . I think {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah , he 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it doesn't take a long time .
Postdoc B: Right . I just thought if it was tried and true , then {disfmarker} {comment} and he 's gone through additional levels of {disfmarker} of development .
Grad G: Just output . Although if you {disfmarker} if you have some parameters like what 's a good window size for the median filter {disfmarker}
PhD A: Oh ! {comment} I have to remember . I 'll think about it , and try to remember .
PhD F: And it might be different for government people .
Grad G: That 's alright .
Professor E: Yeah , good enough for government work , as they say .
PhD C: They {disfmarker} they {disfmarker}
PhD A: Di - dif different {disfmarker} different bandwidth .
PhD F: They
Grad G: I was doing pretty short , you know , tenth of a second , {comment} sorts of numbers .
PhD F: OK .
Professor E: Uh , I don't know , it {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if we want to uh {disfmarker} So , uh , maybe we should move on to other {disfmarker} other things in limited time .
Postdoc B: Can I ask one question about his statistics ? So {disfmarker} so in the tw twelve minutes , um , if we took three hundred and divided it by four , which is about the length of twelve minutes , i Um , I 'd expect like there should be seventy - five overlaps .
Professor E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: Did you find uh more than seventy - five overlaps in that period , or {disfmarker} ?
PhD D: More than ?
Postdoc B: More than {disfmarker} How many overlaps in your twelve minutes ?
PhD D: How many ? Eh , not @ @ I Onl - only I {disfmarker} I transcribe eh only twelve minutes from the
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD D: but eh I {disfmarker} I don't co eh {disfmarker} I don't count eh the {disfmarker} the overlap .
Postdoc B: The overlaps . OK .
PhD D: I consider I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the nnn {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the three hundred is eh considered only you {disfmarker} your transcription . I have to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to finish transcribing . So .
Grad G: I b I bet they 're more , because the beginning of the meeting had a lot more overlaps than {disfmarker} than sort of the middle .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad G: Middle or end .
Postdoc B: I 'm not sure .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad G: Because i we 're {disfmarker} we 're dealing with the {disfmarker} Uh , in the early meetings , we 're recording while we 're saying who 's talking on what microphone , {comment} and things like that ,
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad G: and that seems to be a lot of overlap .
Postdoc B: I think it 's an empirical question .
PhD D: Yeah .
Postdoc B: I think we could find that out .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad G: Yep .
Postdoc B: I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm not sure that the beginning had more .
Professor E: So {disfmarker} so I was gonna ask , I guess about any {disfmarker} any other things that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that either of you wanted to talk about , especially since Andreas is leaving in five minutes , that {disfmarker} that you wanna go with .
PhD C: Can I just ask about the data , like very straightforward question is where we are on the amount of data and the amount of transcribed data , just cuz I 'm {disfmarker} I wanted to get a feel for that to sort of be able to know what {disfmarker} what can be done first and like how many meetings are we recording
Professor E: Right so there 's this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} There 's this forty - five minute piece that Jane transcribed .
PhD C: and {disfmarker}
Professor E: That piece was then uh sent to IBM so they could transcribe so we have some comparison point . Then there 's s a larger piece that 's been recorded and uh put on CD - ROM and sent uh to IBM . Right ? And then we don't know .
PhD C: How many meetings is that ? Like {disfmarker} how many {disfmarker}
Grad G: What 's that ?
Professor E: That was about ten hours , and there was about {disfmarker}
PhD C: t ten {disfmarker} It 's like ten meetings or something ? Uh - huh .
Grad G: Yeah , something like that . And then {disfmarker} then we
PhD A: Ten meetings that have been sent to IBM ?
PhD C: And {disfmarker}
Professor E: Yeah .
Grad G: Well , I haven't sent them yet because I was having this problem with the {pause} missing files .
Professor E: Oh . Oh , that 's right , that had {disfmarker} those have not been sent .
PhD A: H how many total have we recorded now , altogether ?
Professor E: We 're saying about {pause} twelve hours .
Grad G: About twelve {pause} by now . Twelve or thirteen .
PhD C: Uh - huh . And we 're recording only this meeting , like continuously we 're only recording this one now ? or {disfmarker} ?
Professor E: No . No , so the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} that 's the {disfmarker} that 's the biggest one {disfmarker} uh , chunk so far ,
Grad G: Nope .
PhD A: It was the morning one .
PhD C: OK .
Professor E: but there 's at least one meeting recorded of uh the uh uh natural language guys .
Grad G: Jerry .
PhD C: Do they meet every week ,
Professor E: And then there {disfmarker}
PhD C: or every {disfmarker}
Professor E: Uh , they do . w w And we talked to them about recording some more and we 're going to , uh , we 've started having a morning meeting , today uh i starting a w a week or two ago , on the uh front - end issues , and we 're recording those , uh there 's a network services and applications group here who 's agreed to have their meetings recorded ,
PhD C: Great .
Professor E: and we 're gonna start recording them . They 're {disfmarker} They meet on Tuesdays . We 're gonna start recording them next week . So actually , we 're gonna h start having a {disfmarker} a pretty significant chunk and so , you know , {vocalsound} Adam 's sort of struggling with trying to get things to be less buggy , and come up quicker when they do crash and stuff {disfmarker} things like that , now that uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the things are starting to happen . So right now , yeah , I th I 'd say the data is predominantly meeting meetings , but there are scattered other meetings in it and that {disfmarker} that amount is gonna grow uh so that the meeting meetings will probably ultimately {disfmarker} i if we 're {disfmarker} if we collect fifty or sixty hours , the meeting meetings it will probably be , you know , twenty or thirty percent of it , not {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not eighty or ninety . But .
PhD C: So there 's probably {disfmarker} there 's three to four a week ,
Grad G: That 's what we 're aiming for .
PhD C: that we 're aiming for .
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD C: And they 're each about an hour or something .
Professor E: Yeah , yeah .
Grad G: Although {disfmarker} Yeah . We 'll find out tomorrow whether we can really do this or not .
PhD C: So {disfmarker} OK .
Professor E: Yeah and th the {disfmarker} the other thing is I 'm not pos I 'm sort of thinking as we 've been through this a few times , that I really don't know {disfmarker} maybe you wanna do it once for the novelty , but I don't know if in general we wanna have meetings that we record from outside this group do the digits .
Grad G: Right .
Professor E: Because it 's just an added bunch of weird stuff .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor E: And , you know , we {disfmarker} we h we 're highly motivated . Uh in fact , the morning group is really motivated cuz they 're working on connected digits , so it 's {disfmarker}
Grad G: Actually that 's something I wanted to ask , is I have a bunch of scripts to help with the transcription of the digits .
Professor E: Yeah .
Grad G: We don't have to hand - transcribe the digits because we 're reading them and I have those .
PhD C: Right .
Professor E: Yeah .
Grad G: And so I have some scripts that let you very quickly extract the sections of each utterance . But I haven't been ru I haven't been doing that . Um , if I did that , is someone gonna be working on it ?
Professor E: Uh , yeah , I {disfmarker} I think definitely s so Absolutely .
Grad G: I mean , is it something of interest ?
Professor E: Yeah , whoever we have working on the acoustics for the Meeting Recorder are gonna start with that .
Grad G: OK . I mean , I I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm interested in it , I just don't have time to do it now .
PhD F: I was {disfmarker} these meetings {disfmarker} I 'm sure someone thought of this , but these {disfmarker} this uh reading of the numbers would be extremely helpful to do um adaptation .
Grad G: So
PhD F: Um .
Grad G: Yep . Yep .
PhD C: Actually I have o
Grad G: I {disfmarker} I would really like someone to do adaptation .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: So if we got someone interested in that , I think it would be great for Meeting Recorder .
Professor E: Well {disfmarker} I mean , one of the things I wanted to do , uh , that I I talked to {disfmarker} to Don about , is one of the possible things he could do or m also , we could have someone else do it , is to do block echo cancellation ,
Grad G: Since it 's the same people over and over .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: to try to get rid of some of the effects of the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the far - field effects . Um , I mean we have {disfmarker} the party line has been that echo cancellation is not the right way to handle the situation
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: because people move around , and uh , if {disfmarker} if it 's {disfmarker} if it 's uh not a simple echo , like a cross - talk kind of echo , but it 's actually room acoustics , it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} you can't really do inversion ,
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: and even echo cancellation is going to uh be something {disfmarker} It may {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} Someone may be moving enough that you are not able to adapt quickly and so the tack that we 've taken is more " lets come up with feature approaches and multi - stream approaches and so forth , that will be robust to it for the recognizer and not try to create a clean signal " .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Uh , that 's the party line . But it occurred to me a few months ago that uh party lines are always , you know , sort of dangerous . It 's good {disfmarker} {vocalsound} good to sort of test them , actually . And so we haven't had anybody try to do a good serious job on echo cancellation and we should know how well that can do . So that 's something I 'd like somebody to do at some point , just take these digits , take the far - field mike signal , and the close uh mike signal , and apply really good echo cancellation . Um , there was a {disfmarker} have been some nice talks recently by {disfmarker} by Lucent on {disfmarker} on their b
PhD F: Hmm .
Professor E: the block echo cancellation particularly appealed to me , uh you know , trying and change it sample by sample , but you have some reasonable sized blocks . {comment} And um , you know , th
PhD A: W what is the um {disfmarker} the artifact you try to {disfmarker} you 're trying to get rid of when you do that ?
PhD F: Ciao .
Professor E: Uh so it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} you have a {disfmarker} a direct uh {disfmarker} Uh , what 's the difference in {disfmarker} If you were trying to construct a linear filter , that would um {disfmarker}
PhD F: I 'm signing off .
Professor E: Yeah . that would subtract off {comment} the um uh parts of the signal that were the aspects of the signal that were different between the close - talk and the distant . You know , so {disfmarker} so uh um I guess in most echo cancellation {disfmarker} Yeah , so you {disfmarker} Given that um {disfmarker} Yeah , so you 're trying to {disfmarker} So you 'd {disfmarker} There 's a {disfmarker} a distance between the close and the distant mikes so there 's a time delay there , and after the time delay , there 's these various reflections . And if you figure out well what 's the {disfmarker} there 's a {disfmarker} a least squares algorithm that adjusts itself {disfmarker} adjusts the weight so that you try to subtract {disfmarker} essentially to subtract off uh different uh {disfmarker} different reflections . Right ? So let 's take the simple case where you just had {disfmarker} you had some uh some delay in a satellite connection or something and then there 's a {disfmarker} there 's an echo . It comes back . And you want to adjust this filter so that it will maximally reduce the effect of this echo .
PhD A: So that would mean like if you were listening to the data that was recorded on one of those . Uh , just the raw data , you would {disfmarker} you might hear kind of an echo ? And {disfmarker} and then this {disfmarker} noise cancellation would get
Professor E: Well , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm saying {disfmarker} That 's a simplified version of what 's really happening . {comment} What 's really happening is {disfmarker} Well , when I 'm talking to you right now , you 're getting the direct sound from my speech , but you 're also getting , uh , the indirect sound that 's bounced around the room a number of times . OK ? So now , if you um try to r you {disfmarker} To completely remove the effect of that is sort of impractical for a number of technical reasons , but I {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} not to try to completely remove it , that is , invert the {disfmarker} the room response , but just to try to uh uh eliminate some of the {disfmarker} the effect of some of the echos . Um , a number of people have done this so that , say , if you 're talking to a speakerphone , uh it makes it more like it would be , if you were talking right up to it . So this is sort of the st the straight - forward approach . You say I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I want to use this uh {disfmarker} this item but I want to subtract off various kinds of echos . So you construct a filter , and you have this {disfmarker} this filtered version uh of the speech um gets uh uh {disfmarker} gets subtracted off from the original speech . Then you try to {disfmarker} you try to minimize the energy in some sense . And so um {disfmarker} uh with some constraints .
PhD A: Kind of a clean up thing , that {disfmarker}
Professor E: It 's a clean up thing . Right .
PhD A: OK .
Professor E: So , echo cancelling is {disfmarker} is , you know , commonly done in telephony , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and it 's sort of the obvious thing to do in this situation if you {disfmarker} if , you know , you 're gonna be talking some distance from a mike .
PhD A: When uh , I would have meetings with the folks in Cambridge when I was at BBN over the phone , they had a um {disfmarker} some kind of a special speaker phone and when they would first connect me , it would come on and we 'd hear all this noise . And then it was uh {disfmarker} And then it would come on and it was very clear ,
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD A: you know .
Professor E: Right . So it 's taking samples , it 's doing adaptation , it 's adjusting weights , and then it 's getting the sum . So um , uh anyway that 's {disfmarker} that 's kind of a reasonable thing that I 'd like to have somebody try {disfmarker} somebody look {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} and the digits would be a reasonable thing to do that with . I think that 'd be enough data {disfmarker} plenty of data to do that with , and i for that sort of task you wouldn't care whether it was uh large vocabulary speech or anything . Uh . {vocalsound} Um
Postdoc B: Is Brian Kingsbury 's work related to that , or is it a different type of reverberation ?
Professor E: Brian 's {comment} Kingsbury 's work is an example of what we did f f from the opposite dogma . Right ? Which is what I was calling the " party line " , which is that uh doing that sort of thing is not really what we want . We want something more flexible , uh i i where people might change their position , and there might be , you know {disfmarker} There 's also um oh yeah , noise . So the echo cancellation does not really allow for noise . It 's if you have a clean situation but you just have some delays , Then we 'll figure out the right {disfmarker} the right set of weights for your taps for your filter in order to produce the effect of those {disfmarker} those echos . But um if there 's noise , then the very signal that it 's looking at is corrupted so that it 's decision about what the right {disfmarker} you know , right {disfmarker} right uh {disfmarker} delays are {disfmarker} is , uh {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} right delayed signal is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} uh is incorrect . And so , in a noisy situation , um , also in a {disfmarker} in a situation that 's very reverberant {disfmarker} {comment} with long reverberation times {comment} and really long delays , it 's {disfmarker} it 's sort of typically impractical . So for those kind of reasons , and also a {disfmarker} a c a complete inversion , if you actually {disfmarker} I mentioned that it 's kind of hard to really do the inversion of the room acoustics . Um , that 's difficult because um often times the {disfmarker} the um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the system transfer function is such that when it 's inverted you get something that 's unstable , and so , if you {disfmarker} you do your estimate of what the system is , and then you try to invert it , you get a filter that actually uh , you know , rings , and {disfmarker} and uh goes to infinity . So it 's {disfmarker} so there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's that sort of technical reason , and the fact that things move , and there 's air currents {disfmarker} I mean there 's all sorts of {disfmarker} all sorts of reasons why it 's not really practical . So for all those kinds of reasons , uh we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we sort of um , concluded we didn't want to in do inversion , and we 're even pretty skeptical of echo cancellation , which isn't really inversion , and um we decided to do this approach of taking {disfmarker} uh , just picking uh features , which were {disfmarker} uh will give you more {disfmarker} something that was more stable , in the presence of , or absence of , room reverberation , and that 's what Brian was trying to do . So , um , let me just say a couple things that I was {disfmarker} I was gonna bring up . Uh . Let 's see . I guess you {disfmarker} you actually already said this thing about the uh {disfmarker} about the consent forms , which was that we now don't have to {disfmarker} So this was the human subjects folks who said this , {comment} or that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} ?
Postdoc B: The a apparently {disfmarker} I mean , we 're gonna do a revised form , of course . Um but once a person has signed it once , then that 's valid for a certain number of meetings . She wanted me to actually estimate how many meetings and put that on the consent form . I told her that would be a little bit difficult to say . So I think from a s practical standpoint , maybe we could have them do it once every ten meetings , or something . It won't be that many people who do it {pause} that often , but um just , you know , so long as they don't forget that they 've done it , I guess .
Professor E: OK . Um , back on the data thing , so there 's this sort of one hour , ten hour , a hundred hour sort of thing that {disfmarker} that we have . We have {disfmarker} we have an hour uh that {disfmarker} that is transcribed , we have {disfmarker} we have twelve hours that 's recorded but not transcribed , and at the rate we 're going , uh by the end of the semester we 'll have , I don't know , forty or fifty or something , if we {disfmarker} if this really uh {disfmarker} Well , do we have that much ?
PhD C: Not really . It 's three to four per week .
Professor E: Let 's see , we have {disfmarker}
PhD C: So that 's what {disfmarker} You know , that {disfmarker}
Professor E: uh eight weeks , uh is {disfmarker}
PhD C: So that 's not a lot of hours .
Professor E: Eight weeks times three hours is twenty - four , so that 's {disfmarker} Yeah , so like thirty {disfmarker} thirty hours ?
PhD A: Three {disfmarker} Three hours .
PhD C: Yeah . I mean , is there {disfmarker} I know this sounds {pause} tough but we 've got the room set up . Um I was starting to think of some projects where you would use well , similar to what we talked about with uh energy detection on the close - talking mikes . There are a number of interesting questions that you can ask about how interactions happen in a meeting , that don't require any transcription . So what are the patterns , the energy patterns over the meeting ? And I 'm really interested in this {vocalsound} but we don't have a whole lot of data . So I was thinking , you know , we 've got the room set up and you can always think of , also for political reasons , if ICSI collected you know , two hundred hours , that looks different than forty hours , even if we don't transcribe it ourselves ,
Professor E: But I don't think we 're gonna stop at the end of this semester .
PhD C: so {disfmarker}
Professor E: Right ? So , I th I think that if we are able to keep that up for a few months , we are gonna have more like a hundred hours .
PhD C: I mean , is there {disfmarker} Are there any other meetings here that we can record , especially meetings that have some kind of conflict in them {comment} or some kind of deci I mean , that are less well {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} uh , that have some more emotional aspects to them , or strong {disfmarker}
Grad G: We had some good ones earlier .
PhD C: There 's laughter , um I 'm talking more about strong differences of opinion meetings , maybe with manager types , or {disfmarker}
Grad G: I think it 's hard to record those .
PhD C: To be allowed to record them ?
Postdoc B: It 's also likely that people will cancel out afterwards .
PhD C: OK .
Professor E: Yeah , people will get {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: But I {disfmarker} but I wanted to raise the KPFA idea .
PhD C: OK . Well , if there is , anyway .
Professor E: Yeah , I was gonna mention that .
Grad G: Oh , that 's a good idea . That 's {disfmarker} That would be a good match .
Professor E: Yeah . So {disfmarker} Yeah . So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} uh , I {disfmarker} I 'd mentioned to Adam , and {disfmarker} that was another thing I was gonna talk {disfmarker} uh , mention to them before {disfmarker} {comment} that uh there 's uh {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it oc it occurred to me that we might be able to get some additional data by talking to uh acquaintances in local broadcast media . Because , you know , we had talked before about the problem about using found data , {comment} that {disfmarker} that uh it 's just set up however they have it set up and we don't have any say about it and it 's typically one microphone , in a , uh , uh {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and so it doesn't really give us the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the uh characteristics we want . Um and so I do think we 're gonna continue recording here and record what we can . But um , it did occur to me that we could go to friends in broadcast media and say " hey you have this panel show , {pause} or this {disfmarker} you know , this discussion show , and um can you record multi - channel ? " And uh they may be willing to record it uh with {disfmarker}
PhD C: With lapel mikes or something ?
Professor E: Well , they probably already use lapel , but they might be able to have it {disfmarker} it wouldn't be that weird for them to have another mike that was somewhat distant .
PhD C: Right .
Professor E: It wouldn't be exactly this setup , but it would be that sort of thing , and what we were gonna get from UW , you know , assuming they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they start recording , isn't {disfmarker} als also is not going to be this exact setup .
PhD C: Right . No , I think that 'd be great , if we can get more data .
Professor E: So , {comment} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was thinking of looking into that . the other thing that occurred to me after we had that discussion , in fact , is that it 's even possible , since of course , many radio shows are not live , {comment} uh that we could invite them to have like some of their {disfmarker} {comment} record some of their shows here .
Postdoc B: Wow !
PhD C: Well {disfmarker} Or {disfmarker} The thing is , they 're not as averse to wearing one of these head - mount I mean , they 're on the radio ,
Grad G: Right , as we are .
PhD C: right ? So . {comment} Um , I think that 'd be fantastic
Professor E: Right .
PhD C: cuz those kinds of panels and {disfmarker} Those have interesting
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD C: Th - that 's an {disfmarker} a side of style {disfmarker} a style that we 're not collecting here , so it 'd be great .
Professor E: And {disfmarker} and the {disfmarker} I mean , the other side to it was the {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} which is where we were coming from {disfmarker} I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll talk to you more about it later {comment} is that {disfmarker} is that there 's {disfmarker} there 's uh the radio stations and television stations already have stuff worked out presumably , uh related to , you know , legal issues and {disfmarker} and permissions and all that . I mean , they already do what they do {disfmarker} do whatever they do . So it 's {disfmarker} uh , it 's {disfmarker} So it 's {disfmarker} so it 's another source . So I think it 's something we should look into , you know , we 'll collect what we collect here hopefully they will collect more at UW also and um {disfmarker} and maybe we have this other source . But yeah I think that it 's not unreasonable to aim at getting , you know , significantly in excess of a hundred hours . I mean , that was sort of our goal . The thing was , I was hoping that we could {disfmarker} @ @ in the {disfmarker} under this controlled situation we could at least collect , you know , thirty to fifty hours . And at the rate we 're going we 'll get pretty close to that I think this semester . And if we continue to collect some next semester , I think we should , uh {disfmarker}
PhD C: Right . Yeah I was mostly trying to think , " OK , if you start a project , within say a month , you know , how much data do you have to work with . And you {disfmarker} you wanna s you wanna sort of fr freeze your {disfmarker} your data for awhile so um right now {disfmarker} and we don't have the transcripts back yet from IBM right ? Do {disfmarker} Oh , do we now ?
Professor E: Well , we don't even have it for this f you know , forty - five minutes , that was {disfmarker}
PhD C: So um , not complaining , I was just trying to think , you know , what kinds of projects can you do now versus uh six months from now
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD C: and they 're pretty different , because
Professor E: Yeah . So I was thinking right now it 's sort of this exploratory stuff where you {disfmarker} you look at the data , you use some primitive measures and get a feeling for what the scatter plots look like ,
Grad G: Right .
PhD C: um {disfmarker} Right . Right , right .
Professor E: and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} and meanwhile we collect , and it 's more like yeah , three months from now , or six months from now you can {disfmarker} you can do a lot of other things .
PhD C: Cuz I 'm not actually sure , just logistically that I can spend {disfmarker} you know , I don't wanna charge the time that I have on the project too early , before there 's enough data to make good use of the time . And that 's {disfmarker} and especially with the student
Grad G: Right .
PhD C: uh for instance this guy who seems {disfmarker}
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD C: Uh anyway , I shouldn't say too much , but um if someone came that was great and wanted to do some real work and they have to end by the end of this school year in the spring , how much data will I have to work with , with that person . And so it 's {disfmarker}
Professor E: i Yeah , so I would think , exploratory things now . Uh , three months from now {disfmarker} Um , I mean the transcriptions I think are a bit of an unknown cuz we haven't gotten those back yet as far as the timing , but I think as far as the collection , it doesn't seem to me l like , uh , unreasonable to say that uh in January , you know , ro roughly uh {disfmarker} which is roughly three months from now , we should have at least something like , you know , twenty - five , thirty hours .
PhD C: And we just don't know about the transcription part of that ,
Professor E: So that 's {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: Yeah , we need to {disfmarker} I think that there 's a possibility that the transcript will need to be adjusted afterwards ,
PhD C: so . I mean , it {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: and uh es especially since these people won't be uh used to dealing with multi - channel uh transcriptions .
PhD C: Right .
Professor E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: So I think that we 'll need to adjust some {disfmarker} And also if we wanna add things like um , well , more refined coding of overlaps , then definitely I think we should count on having an extra pass through . I wanted to ask another a a aspect of the data collection . There 'd be no reason why a person couldn't get together several uh , you know , friends , and come and argue about a topic if they wanted to , right ?
Professor E: If they really have something they wanna talk about as opposed to something @ @ {disfmarker} I mean , what we 're trying to stay away from was artificial constructions , but I think if it 's a real {disfmarker} Why not ? Yeah .
PhD C: I mean , I 'm thinking , politically {disfmarker}
Grad G: Stage some political debates .
Postdoc B: You could do this ,
PhD C: Well yeah ,
Postdoc B: you know . You could .
PhD C: or just if you 're {disfmarker} if you ha If there are meetings here that happen that we can record even if we don't {pause} um have them do the digits , {comment} or maybe have them do a shorter {pause} digit thing {comment} like if it was , you know , uh , one string of digits , or something , they 'd probably be willing to do .
Grad G: We don't have to do the digits at all if we don't want to .
PhD C: Then , having the data is very valuable , cuz I think it 's um politically better for us to say we have this many hours of audio data , especially with the ITR , if we put in a proposal on it . It 'll just look like ICSI 's collected a lot more audio data . Um , whether it 's transcribed or not um , is another issue , but there 's {disfmarker} there are research questions you can answer without the transcriptions , or at least that you can start to answer .
Postdoc B: It seems like you could hold some meetings .
Grad G: Yep .
Postdoc B: You know , you and maybe Adam ?
PhD C: So .
Postdoc B: You {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker} you could maybe hold some additional meetings , if you wanted .
PhD A: Would it help at all {disfmarker} I mean , we 're already talking about sort of two levels of detail in meetings . One is uh um without doing the digits {disfmarker} Or , I guess the full - blown one is where you do the digits , and everything , and then talk about doing it without digits , what if we had another level , just to collect data , which is without the headsets and we just did the table - mounted stuff .
PhD C: Need the close - talking mikes .
PhD A: You do , OK .
PhD C: I mean , absolutely ,
Professor E: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD C: yeah . I 'm really scared {disfmarker}
Grad G: It seems like it 's a big part of this corpus is to have the close - talking mikes .
PhD A: I see , OK .
PhD C: Um or at least , like , me personally ? I would {disfmarker} {comment} I {disfmarker} couldn't use that data .
Professor E: Yeah .
Postdoc B: I agree . And Mari also ,
PhD C: Um .
Postdoc B: we had {disfmarker} This came up when she she was here . That 's important .
PhD C: So it 's a great idea ,
Professor E: Yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} b By the {disfmarker} by the way , I don't think the transcriptions are actually , in the long run , such a big bottleneck .
PhD C: and if it were true than I would just do that , but it 's not that bad {disfmarker} like the room is not the bottleneck , and we have enough time in the room , it 's getting the people to come in and put on the {disfmarker} and get the setup going .
Professor E: I think the issue is just that we 're {disfmarker} we 're blazing that path . Right ? And {disfmarker} and um {disfmarker} d Do you have any idea when {disfmarker} when uh the {disfmarker} you 'll be able to send uh the ten hours to them ?
Grad G: Well , I 've been burning two C Ds a day , which is about all I can do with the time I have .
Professor E: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad G: So it 'll be early next week .
Professor E: Yeah , OK . So early next week we send it to them , and then {disfmarker} then we check with them to see if they 've got it and we {disfmarker} we start , you know asking about the timing for it .
Grad G: Yep .
Professor E: So I think once they get it sorted out about how they 're gonna do it , which I think they 're pretty well along on , cuz they were able to read the files and so on .
Grad G: Yep .
Professor E: Right ?
Grad G: Yeah , but {disfmarker}
Professor E: Well {disfmarker}
Grad G: Yeah , who knows where they are .
PhD A: Have they ever responded to you ?
Grad G: Nope .
Professor E: Yeah , but {disfmarker} You know , so they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they have {disfmarker} you know , they 're volunteering their time and they have a lot of other things to do ,
PhD C: What if {disfmarker}
Grad G: Yeah , you {disfmarker} we can't complain .
Professor E: right ? But they {disfmarker} But at any rate , they 'll {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think once they get that sorted out , they 're {disfmarker} they 're making cassettes there , then they 're handing it to someone who they {disfmarker} who 's {disfmarker} who is doing it , and uh I think it 's not going to be {disfmarker} I don't think it 's going to be that much more of a deal for them to do thirty hours then to do one hour , I think . It 's not going to be thirty
Grad G: Yep . I think that 's probably true .
PhD C: Really ? So it 's the amount of {disfmarker}
Professor E: It 's {disfmarker} it 's just getting it going .
Grad G: It 's pipeline , pipeline issues .
PhD C: Right . What about these lunch meetings {disfmarker}
Grad G: Once the pipeline fills .
PhD C: I mean , I don't know , if there 's any way without too much more overhead , even if we don't ship it right away to IBM even if we just collect it here for awhile , {comment} to record you know , two or three more meeting a week , just to have the data , even if they 're um not doing the digits , but they do wear the headphones ?
Professor E: But the lunch meetings are pretty much one person getting up and {disfmarker}
PhD C: No , I meant , um , sorry , the meetings where people eat their lunch downstairs , maybe they don't wanna be recorded , but {disfmarker}
Grad G: Oh , and we 're just chatting ?
PhD C: Just the ch the chatting .
Grad G: Yeah , we have a lot of those .
PhD C: I actually {disfmarker} I actually think that 's {pause} useful {pause} data , um {pause} the chatting ,
Grad G: Yeah , the problem with that is I would {disfmarker} I think I would feel a little constrained to {disfmarker} You know ? Uh , some of the meetings {disfmarker}
PhD C: but {disfmarker} OK . You don't wanna do it , cuz {disfmarker} OK .
Grad G: You know , our " soccer ball " meeting ?
PhD C: Alright .
Grad G: I guess none of you were there for our soccer ball meeting .
PhD C: Alright , {comment} so I 'll just throw it out there , if anyone knows of one more m or two more wee meetings per week that happen at ICSI , um that we could record , I think it would be worth it .
Grad G: That was hilarious .
Professor E: Yeah . Well , we should also check with Mari again , because they {disfmarker} because they were really intending , you know , maybe just didn't happen , but they were really intending to be duplicating this in some level . So then that would double {pause} what we had . Uh . And there 's a lot of different meetings at UW uh {disfmarker} I mean really m a lot more {comment} than we have here right cuz we 're not right on campus ,
Grad G: Right .
Professor E: so .
PhD A: Is the uh , notion of recording any of Chuck 's meetings dead in the water , or is that still a possibility ?
Professor E: Uh , {vocalsound} they seem to have some problems with it . We can {disfmarker} we can talk about that later . Um , but , again , Jerry is {disfmarker} Jerry 's open {disfmarker} So I mean , we have two speech meetings , one uh network meeting , uh Jerry was open to it but I {disfmarker} I s One of the things that I think is a little {disfmarker} a little bit of a limitation , there is a think when the people are not involved uh in our work , we probably can't do it every week . You know ? I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that {disfmarker} that people are gonna feel uh {disfmarker} are gonna feel a little bit constrained . Now , it might get a little better if we don't have them do the digits all the time . And the {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} so then they can just really sort of try to {disfmarker} put the mikes on and then just charge in and {disfmarker}
Grad G: Yep .
PhD C: What if we give people {disfmarker} you know , we cater a lunch in exchange for them having their meeting here or something ?
Postdoc B: Well , you know , I {disfmarker} I do think eating while you 're doing a meeting is going to be increasing the noise .
PhD C: OK .
Postdoc B: But I had another question , which is um , you know , in principle , w um , I know that you don't want artificial topics ,
PhD C: Alright , alright , alright .
Postdoc B: but um it does seem to me that we might be able to get subjects from campus to come down and do something that wouldn't be too artificial . I mean , we could {disfmarker} political discussions , or {disfmarker} or something or other ,
PhD C: No , definitely .
Postdoc B: and i you know , people who are {disfmarker} Because , you know , there 's also this constraint . We d it 's like , you know , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} uh goldibears {disfmarker} goldi goldilocks , it 's like you don't want meetings that are too large , but you don't want meetings that are too small . And um {disfmarker} a and it just seems like maybe we could exploit the subj human subject p p pool , in the positive sense of the word .
PhD A: Well , even {disfmarker} I mean , coming down from campus is sort of a big thing , but what about
Postdoc B: We could pay subjects .
PhD A: or what about people in the {disfmarker} in the building ?
PhD C: Yeah , I was thinking , there 's all these other peo
PhD A: I mean , there 's the State of California downstairs , and {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah . I mean {disfmarker}
Grad G: I just really doubt that uh any of the State of California meetings would be recordable and then releasable to the general public .
Postdoc B: Yeah .
PhD A: Oh .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: So I {disfmarker} I mean I talked with some people at the Haas Business School who are i who are interested in speech recognition
PhD C: Alright , well .
Grad G: and , they sort of hummed and hawed and said " well maybe we could have meetings down here " , but then I got email from them that said " no , we decided we 're not really interested and we don't wanna come down and hold meetings . " So , I think it 's gonna be a problem to get people regularly .
PhD A: What about Joachim , maybe he can {disfmarker}
Professor E: But {disfmarker} but we c But I think , you know , we get some scattered things from this and that . And I {disfmarker} I d I do think that maybe we can get somewhere with the {disfmarker} with the radio .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: Uh i I have better contacts in radio than in television , but {disfmarker}
PhD A: You could get a lot of lively discussions from those radio ones .
PhD C: Well , and they 're already {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} these things are already recorded ,
Grad G: Yep .
Professor E: Yeah .
PhD C: we don't have to ask them to {disfmarker} even {disfmarker} and I 'm not sure wh how they record it , but they must record from individual {disfmarker}
Professor E: n Well {disfmarker} No , I 'm not talking about ones that are already recorded . I 'm talking about new ones
PhD C: Why {disfmarker} why not ?
Professor E: because {disfmarker} because {disfmarker} because we would be asking them to do something different .
PhD C: Well , we can find out . I know for instance Mark Liberman was interested uh in {disfmarker} in LDC getting {pause} data , uh , and {disfmarker}
Professor E: Right , that 's the found data idea .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor E: But what I 'm saying is uh if I talk to people that I know who do these th who produce these things we could ask them if they could record an extra channel , let 's say , of a distant mike .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor E: And u I think routinely they would not do this . So , since I 'm interested in the distant mike stuff , I wanna make sure that there is at least that somewhere
PhD C: Right . Great . OK .
Professor E: and uh {disfmarker} But if we ask them to do that they might be intrigued enough by the idea that they uh might be e e willing to {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} I might be able to talk them into it .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: Um . We 're getting towards the end of our disk space , so we should think about trying to wrap up here .
PhD C: That 's a good way to end a meeting .
Professor E: OK . Well I don't {disfmarker} why don't we {disfmarker} why d u why don't we uh uh turn them {disfmarker} turn
Grad G: OK , leave {disfmarker} leave them on for a moment until I turn this off , cuz that 's when it crashed last time .
Postdoc B: Oh . That 's good to know .
Professor E: Turning off the microphone made it crash . Well {disfmarker}
Postdoc B: That 's good to know .
Professor E: OK . | |
doc_124 | Marketing: Is this okay ?
Project Manager: Uh yeah . Fine now . Oh , it's not liking us , it went that-a-way . Computer adjusting . Oh . Uh . Okay . {vocalsound} So . Right . You ready back there ? {vocalsound} Uh okay . Welcome everyone . Um this is the kick-off meeting for the day . Um we're the new group uh to create a new remote control for Real Reaction . As you can see our agenda is to open up the meeting , um become acquainted with each other , um have a little training on tools , uh create a plan , discuss things and and we only have twenty minut twenty five minutes total . Okay . The new remote control is to be original , trendy and user-friendly . That , Steph , is your part , is the user-friendliness . The originality um is gonna take all of us . Um the trendiness we'll probably go look at {disfmarker} for some marketing research information from you , Sarah . Um and we'll get on with it . Okay , so we'll have a functional design individual work um with meeting and then conceptual design t and then detailed design . Okay ? Right . Everybody's supposed to try out the whiteboard . Kate , why don't you try it first , if you can either bring your things with you , I guess {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah , if I can pick up with all these bits and pieces , hang on .
Project Manager: And while you're doing that we'll try and figure out how to hook these things on as well , 'cause we're all gonna have to be able to walk around .
Industrial Designer: Uh right , so you want an animal and the characteristics of that animal . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Do you have to be able to recognise what animal it is ? {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh I do not think so ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Are we all gonna draw a cat ?
Project Manager: I think it's just to try out the whiteboard . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Ah {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Only animal I could thin I could draw {vocalsound} .
Marketing: I know .
Industrial Designer: Its a sort of bunny rabbit cat . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You can tell it's not a bunny rabbit by the ears .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: Um I suppose it should have a mouth as well , sort of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Right , yeah .
Project Manager: Great . And the characteristics ?
Industrial Designer: Um the favourite characteristics of the cat um {disfmarker} the whiskers I think , um because they're the easiest to draw .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: In fact , I'll give it some more {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh , and the tail
Project Manager: Fantastic . Since you're handy as well , why don't you do yours next , Steph . I think it's to get us used to using the pen .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yes . Um sure it's not to test our artistic {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh no . {vocalsound} A mouse-y ?
Industrial Designer: It's a mouse .
User Interface: That's not a mouse-y , no .
Industrial Designer: No it's not a mouse . It's a wombat .
Project Manager: Oh .
User Interface: It's a ratty .
Project Manager: Argh .
Industrial Designer: A what ?
Project Manager: Rat .
User Interface: A ratty .
Project Manager: Not a mouse , a rat .
Industrial Designer: A webbed foot . Webbed f {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's clothes . That's it's clothes . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh right {vocalsound} .
User Interface: It's a ratty with a with a with a very long tail .
Project Manager: And your favourite characteristics of that animal .
User Interface: I love whiskers . Uh they're intelligent and they're cheeky {vocalsound} and uh fantastic pets
Project Manager: Oh .
User Interface: and very friendly .
Project Manager: Okay . Kate ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: And they sit on your shoulder and whisper the answers to your homework in your ear when you're doing your homework .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Thanks .
Project Manager: Oh , a fish .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Gosh ,
User Interface: A shark ?
Industrial Designer: why didn't I think of fish ? That's even easier to draw than cat . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm {vocalsound} this is very representational fish . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh , okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Fine .
Marketing: Um I like them because they're sleek
Project Manager: Favourite characteristics ?
Marketing: and they have a lot of freedom but they also do n uh swim in groups ,
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Marketing: so .
Project Manager: So they have team elements . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Do you have a favourite one ?
Project Manager: I'm afraid I'm with Steph . And I think your pen's running out of whatever . But I'm afraid I take the coward's way out , and the cat's looking the other way . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: He's hiding .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um cats are sometimes very independent . My parents had cats . Uh and they can mm decide for themselves what is best . Okay . Now um {vocalsound} we have to get down to the nitty-gritty of how to make this and this remote control has to be sold {disfmarker} um we're to sell it for twenty five Euros , with a profit aim ultimately of fifty million Euros . That tells you something about how many um we have to sell on an international scale . Um would be an awful lot of these , would be like what , a hundred million of them um to make twenty five Euros on each one and to make a total profit of fifty million . Um the production is to only cost twelve and a half Euros per item . Now if they cost twelve and a half , you're selling it for twenty five , you're making twelve and a half Euros each . Um and we're to make a profit of fifty million , that's t uh {disfmarker} can you do the maths and how many are we selling ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh yeah . {vocalsound} I was just wondering if that's the um {disfmarker} If fifty percent is normal {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mark-up ?
Marketing: B yeah . Um I would think would be more like sixty percent . But um let me {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: I have two thoughts . One hundred , fifty percent .
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: And and your question is how many do we have to sell ?
Project Manager: Yes , 'cause our market um is international and your problem is {disfmarker} has to do with marketing of {disfmarker} you know , you gotta know how many we're going to be selling to know how big a market you have to target and who is that .
Marketing: At twenty five . Mm-hmm . Yeah , that's um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: To give you a pretty good idea of where you're looking .
Marketing: So that's four million of them ?
Project Manager: Something like that ? Okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: That's fifty million Euros . In order to make fifty million Euros , and you're only getting twelve and a half each {disfmarker}
Marketing: And if we make {disfmarker} Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: That's a lot of selling . Two four {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Four million .
Project Manager: To be fifty , be four million . You'd have to sell four million .
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: Okay ? Right . Experience with a remote control . Any of you use of remote control for a television or D_V_D_ or something ? You're both nodding ,
Industrial Designer: That that that's the sorta product we're talking about , one that will work for a {disfmarker} in a home environment , for a T_V_s and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: all three . Well I've seen some remote controls that are for more than one device at a time , but I also have heard about them not working well or not well co-ordinated and you wind up working with this one for thi this three and then this one over here for another .
User Interface: It is true that you always sit around {disfmarker} you know , you're sitting on your sofa and you wanna change something , there's five different remotes , and one for the D_V_D_ and one for the video and one for cable and one for whatever else .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Y yeah .
Project Manager: And they don't always talk to each other .
User Interface: But I presume this is t I presume this is just for television .
Project Manager: Don't know . Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Are there any um ideas for the remote ? What would it be for and what group would be be for ? We have to think about that one .
Marketing: We could make a Hello Kitty
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: themed remote .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I think one in b bright colours would be good . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I think one that works would be good . {vocalsound}
Marketing: We could totally go for the Japan-a-mation . Well I mean there's also the cachet that um uh the Japanese make great {vocalsound} products . Electrical {disfmarker} their industrial design is very good .
User Interface: I think one that doesn't have lots of superfluous functions . Like I've got one at home that has well , apart from the obvious , channels , channel up , channel down , volume ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: you know , subtitles , mute , there's a lotta buttons that I've got no idea what they do , like {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well , that's a really good point ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: because I think one of the things that {disfmarker} being somewhat computer literate , we tend to um go to menus and then make choices , you know , so if it's like an uh volume button , you know , you can go in and say mute or or volume . We don't need to have like the l the numbers if we also have uh uh channel up channel down .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm . {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: Mm . We can make it smart like an iPod , you know , make everything menus .
User Interface: Ooh , closing the meeting .
Project Manager: Yeah . Um I know this sounds like it was very quick ,
User Interface: That was quick .
Project Manager: but the I think that's the industrial design is the first one ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: that's Kate , for the working design .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And user , that's you S Steph , for the technical functions design , and for marketing the user requirements specification . I think there's going to be a lot of {disfmarker} we have to help each other and work through this as a group , and I think we all , you know , {vocalsound} we like our kitty-cat and our rat and our fish , but I think we all have to like each other um to get this done . Uh as it says , we're gonna get individual instructions , but uh I don't think they allowed a lot of extra time , so I think a little bit of less of this and more at do will set us in good stead . Do you all agree ?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Alright . Um then I don't see any reason to prolong it and f we should finish this meeting at ni right now and go into other things . Alright , so this is the end of the first meeting .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Thank you all . | |
doc_125 | Project Manager: Right uh . So um . So where's the PowerPoint presentation ? Sorry ? Microsoft PowerPoint , right . Right , okay . So . Right . Okay , so we've got uh so we've got new project requirements . Um . So basically we've got three things , and we've got forty minutes in which to uh {disfmarker} for this meeting to uh to discuss the various options . Um . Three presentations .
Industrial Designer: We have a {disfmarker} I guess we have a presentation each , 'cause I've got one . Um .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah ,
Project Manager: I see , right .
Marketing: I've got one too .
Project Manager: That's nice to know , one from each of you . Um new project requirements . Um so do we want to do the presentation first , or do we want to um {disfmarker} W I I got um {gap} or or three things basically , um relating to the remote being only for T_V_ . We discussed that last time
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and in actual fact that was pr pretty well what we came up with anyway .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So in fact it actually f we won't be forestalled {vocalsound} in a sense .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Um we've got uh teletext outdated . Um did you get any information on that ?
Industrial Designer: Uh we didn't , no .
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: Right and the corporate image was the uh final thing .
Industrial Designer: I d I didn't personally .
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: So I I got that in email form .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um . Right okay . So I guess if we go ahead with the uh with the three presentations . So we'll start with yourself on the basis that uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay that's fine . I'll just um I'll grab the wire out the back of this one .
Project Manager: Sorry , yep .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh . {vocalsound}
User Interface: What is it ?
Industrial Designer: I'm not quite sure how it {disfmarker}
User Interface: I think you've got to do um control F_ eight .
Industrial Designer: Control {gap} {disfmarker} Doesn't seem to be quite working at the moment .
User Interface: Shift F_ eight . {vocalsound} {gap}
Industrial Designer: Alt function F_ eight . {vocalsound} Again not doing anything .
Marketing: {vocalsound} There's usually a little thing in the top right for the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh .
User Interface: Ah there ,
Marketing: Oh hang on ,
User Interface: it's doing something .
Marketing: it's just coming on .
Industrial Designer: {gap} pressed about five times now .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay , that's me {gap} . Okay , um I have to go {gap} again .
Project Manager: {gap} it going ?
Industrial Designer: Hopefully that should be it this time . Okay , I think we're there . That's good . Okay , um {disfmarker} Okay I'm gonna be looking at the working design . Um {vocalsound} of the of the remote control . Um I've just got three sections , first is the research I made on the on the remote control itself um . And then that involves the components required in it and the systems uh design of the actual the actual remote . Um so having researched the existing models within the market , um I found my research off the internet . Um I've established what the components required for the remote control to function , actually are . And then also the methods in which these components interact together for the remote to actually do what you want it to do and how it connects with the television . Um the basic components are an energy source which I guess um in most existing models would be a battery supply . Whether that'll be sort of two batteries , four batteries , um it may vary .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: We then have the user interface , which is basically the like the the buttons on the actual remote . Um the various functions used for changing channel , uh channel up and down , volume , things like that . Um there's also a chip inside the remote which does all the computer type things . And then the sender , which um is usually , I've found , an infra-red device which sends a signal to the actual television . Um and the last part is receiver which is important in the system but is not actually part of the remote itself , because that's obviously found in the television . {gap} . Um I'm gonna have to actually draw on the board because uh it was a little tricky on PowerPoint to get this working , so . I'll just go through there . S um um do we have a cloth to wipe this down with , or ? Oh I'll j
Project Manager: Uh there's the rubber on the right , I think .
User Interface: I think it's that little {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh I see . Oh okay . I'll get rid of the bear.$
Project Manager: {gap} it's magic . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay that's great . Okay , so we start off with a um battery suppl Uh no , a power supply which we'd probably get {disfmarker} it's probably gonna be the battery . Um we then have a particular button , which may be {disfmarker} {gap} that's obviously there's lots and lots of different buttons . Um but this is how the basic system works . Um that sends {gap} after you press that that sends the message to the chip , which um then sends {disfmarker} It sort of interprets which button you've pressed and then sends the appropriate message to the sender . {vocalsound} Um . So that's {gap} . That's the remote in itself , that's the components of the remote and how they work together . So this is the uh user interface . Um this is the chip itself , which then {gap} , and that's the that's the infra-red sender . And then on the separate thing we have on the on the television we have a a receiver . And the sender sends a message to the receiver . 'Kay .
Project Manager: So the the top bit's the power source , yes ? {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Ah yes , that's the power source . Um . {gap} going on to personal preferences , I've said that battery seems the best option for the actual remote , just because of the size . You don't want a a cable attached to the remote otherwise it's not it's not really a remote . Um and then the sender ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and infra-red um has been used quite successfully . If the battery's on reasonable power , they always seem to work fairly well . You don't have to be point directly at the television itself .
Project Manager: So the battery is the {disfmarker} in the sender .
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} Yes . 'Kay and that's it for the moment .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay . So , now more design . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Right . Thank you . Mine's not quite as complicated as all that .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's what we like to hear . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Did I press function ? Yeah .
Project Manager: Is it control function ei Oh , th there you go .
User Interface: Oh . Um . Okay so I'm gonna talk a bit about the technical functions design . I'm Louisa , the User Interface Designer , as you know . {vocalsound} Um so the m basic method of this is to send a signal from the remote to the television set , so that a desired function is performed . Um an example of the function could be to change the volume up or down , uh so obviously you need two different buttons for that . Um to change the channel , either by pressing the number that you want or by channel up or down . Um to switch the television on or off , maybe a standby button . Um here are two example remotes . Um by the look of it they both have um kind of play and fast forward , rewind functions , so I think they incorporate a kind of video function which we won't have to worry about . Uh but as you can see , the left remote is quite um quite busy looking , quite complicated . Um whereas the right remote is much simpler , it looks much more user friendly . Um so my personal preference would be the right remote . So , {vocalsound} it's got nice big buttons , it's got a very limited number of buttons . Um they're nice , kinda clearly labelled . Um I like the use of the kind of um symbols like the triangles and the squares and the arrows as well as the words on the um kind of play functions and all that . So it's very very user friendly , and it's got a little splash of colour . Could maybe do with some more colour . Um .
Project Manager: Well there's a couple of things there . Um we have to remember that we have our own um logo and colour scheme . So basically we'd have to uh we'd have to be putting that on um the the product .
User Interface: Hmm . Do we get to see that ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I haven't as yet , no .
User Interface: Will you be presenting that in a bit ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} But uh I got uh I got an email that basically said to uh make sure that uh whatever device we come up with at the end of the day had to incorporate um the corporate colour and slogan . So uh I'm guessing that uh uh I notice on the bottom there it's got uh what's that ? A_P_O_G_E_E_ that might be the corporate colour scheme , although the only the only colour I can see in that is the red .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Would you be able to get rid of the the extra buttons here , the the sort of circular section , because that seems to be for a video as well . So we could dispense with that little bit as well and just get it down to just the numbers and the volume . Possibly ?
User Interface: What do you mean by the circular section ?
Industrial Designer: J yeah yeah yeah j yeah
User Interface: Like all of that bottom bit ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: just this little bit is that {disfmarker} I think that's still um a video remote part ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so maybe we could get rid of that as well .
User Interface: Yeah . And I don't really think that you need nine numbers .
Project Manager: Well b uh w
User Interface: I mean how often do you use seven , eight and nine ? I think just one to six and then channel up and down should be enough .
Project Manager: Well th the on the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Like how often do you hit nine ?
Project Manager: Well uh for for general television purposes obviously you have channels one to five at this point in time ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and we'd have to have some room for uh future such channels . But but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's just people are used to seeing that , so if we didn't have them then they might think it's {disfmarker} {gap}
Project Manager: But , well possibly but the the other thing is that with um the current expansion of uh channels uh in the process of taking place , certainly the button up and down , but uh I mean {vocalsound} how many channels do we have to um {disfmarker} actual television channels do we have to uh prepare for ? I would have thought that uh {gap} it's forever expanding and at the moment we've got {disfmarker} although you've onl you've got the five standard , you've got the B_B_C_ have come up with a further six
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and uh there's uh I don't know exactly how many channels there are on uh when you take into account uh Sky and various other um various others .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: So I would've thought that we wouldn't , you know , rather {disfmarker}
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: Okay , if the time of flicking from one to other , but presumably it'll take a second
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: 'cause you have to be able to stop it . Maybe you could have a fast forward on the on the channels that w and then you could dispense with more otherwise . Y you'd want you'd want to get fairly quickly to the channel that you wanted .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um some remotes have kind of favourite options where if you always flick from channel one to channel six , um if that's a favourite you just like by-pass two to five .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah , I s I suppose in a sense you could have um if you've got a hundred channels then if you had sort of an easy way of getting {disfmarker} rather than having to go one to a hundred , you could go one to one to ten , ten to twenty
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: and then have a second button to get you to the actual channel you want
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and that would cut down your time .
User Interface: Mm . Um .
Project Manager: Anyway .
User Interface: But I think a lot of um like Cable and Sky and stuff , that would be tuned to one channel , and then you'd have another remote for all of those channels .
Industrial Designer: Okay , yeah .
User Interface: Like to get to fifty five and the higher numbers {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Whatever .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . Okay . Limit the number of buttons , user friendly .
User Interface: But I suppose nine's not really excessive .
Industrial Designer: I suppose with nine you've got the the like the last one which makes the tenth means you {disfmarker} uh it's like uh multiples you can put them together so you can make any number .
User Interface: I suppose it does make a good pattern .
Industrial Designer: So with that we'd kind of by-pass any problems with {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah Well that's true , yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: you could get fifty by five and a zero or whatever , that that makes sense .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . 'Cause that facilitates having all the numbers you could ever need .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um .
Project Manager: Does .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So w so what was the circular thing that you were {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay . Um I think that's just for a video , so we wouldn't need any of that at all .
Industrial Designer: So we could get it down to what ?
Project Manager: If it's just for T_V_ , which is what it is at the moment .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So we get to {disfmarker} How many buttons have we got ? We've just got ten , eleven twelve th We got fourteen that we need . I guess .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um which isn't really too many . That'll be quite easy to make a user guide for a fourteen button remote .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Well we've we've got um that it's remote for T_V_ only otherwise project would become too complex with uh which would endanger the time to market {vocalsound} was one of the considerations .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Project Manager: I'm {disfmarker} I don't know d did you have that information behind the marketing ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: or was I meant to give you that information ?
Marketing: Um I'm not sure . I had I've had some market information ,
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: but not from the company , no .
Project Manager: Right , okay , so basically time to market seems to be important , therefore speed of delivery .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Project Manager: We've only got about another four hours left . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay , so is everyone happy with that ?
Industrial Designer: Ah yes yes , that seems good .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Right well that's the end of my presentation .
Marketing: 'Kay . I'm gonna pull this off . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I think if you just give it a second to maybe catch up .
Project Manager: Yeah , I think she said twenty seconds to um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: I'm sure we'll have by the end of today .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound} I'll give it another go . Yeah , there we go . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Right , we've done some research into the functional requirements that people want out of their remote control . And first off we should state that th the remote control's for controlling the T_V_ and um how do people use it ? We asked them sort of which buttons were useful for them . Um how d how does a remote control look and feel for them , and what improvements would would they like to remote control . And we did that by sort of giving them a questionnaire that we'd prepared and asking them to fill in the answers . And three quarters of them found that remote controls are ugly and that a sort of even higher proportion would spend more for a sort of s uh a fancier remote control And that of all the buttons on the remote control , the sort of setting buttons for sort of the picture picture and brightness and the audio settings , um they weren't used very often at all . People concentrated on the channel buttons and the volume buttons and the power buttons . Uh we also asked them about speech recognition uh for remote control . And young people were quite receptive to this , but as soon as we got sort of over about into a thirty five to forty age {disfmarker} forty five age group and older , people people weren't quite so keen on speech recognition . There's a lot more th there's a lot lot more older people who didn't know whether they wanted it or not as well . Um we also asked what frustrated people about remote controls and the number one frustration was that the remote was lost somewhere else in the room and that they couldn't find it . And the second second biggest frustration what that if they got a new remote control , it was difficult to learn um all the buttons and all the functions , and to find your way around it . {vocalsound} Okay , so {disfmarker} My personal preferences from the marketing is that we need to come up with some {vocalsound} sort of sleek sort of good looking high high-tech {disfmarker} A design which looks high-tech , basically . Um and that we should come up with fewer buttons than most of the controls on the market , and we should sort of concentrate on the channels and sort of power , and also volume and that sort of thing , as as Louisa said . Um we could maybe come up with a menu , a sort of a an L_C_D_ menu for other functions on the remote control . That's worth thinking about . Um and maybe we could think about speech recognition as well , because um sort of young people are perhaps the ones that are gonna buy buy our new product if we aim it at sort of you know sort of a high-tech design . That that might be the market that we're we're looking for . And we could maybe think about using speech recogniti recognition as a way to find the remote control if it's lost in a room , rather than sort of um having it to {vocalsound} speech recognition to change the channels . 'Cause there's a problem with that in that the television makes noise , so it could end up talking to itself and changing its channel .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay um , and that's the end of the slide show . That's it . Cool .
Project Manager: What was that last wee bit there ?
User Interface: Do {gap} a lot of um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um about speech recognition ?
Project Manager: Speech recognition ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: But that was only for young people that preferred it , older people didn't .
Marketing: Youn young people pref Yeah , they s they said that they'd be interested in a remote control which offered that possibility and as you go up through the age groups , people got less and less interested in sort of a a remote control that you could talk to , so .
Industrial Designer: No what I maybe think is um it seems the technology would be quite advanced for that and they might end up costing more than our twelve fifty budget for for the speech recognition . Um .
Project Manager: Well that's right .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And possibly the thing about the about the remote being lost we could have {disfmarker} You know with your mobile phone , you lose that and you can ring it . Maybe we can have some kind of sensor which is kept somewhere where you can {disfmarker} {gap} some kind of buzzer system between the two . So you can press a button which is always kept in one place
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and then it maybe buzzes to somewhere else , wherever the remote actually is .
Marketing: Uh-huh . Yeah . Yeah , we'd have t that would mean we'd have to put two products together as well ,
Industrial Designer: That is true , yes .
Marketing: which which again would probably be a bit expensive , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: There's key rings um that you kind of whistle at or clap at , I can't remember , and then they whistle back , or something like that .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Sounds reasonable .
User Interface: That'd probably be really simple ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: they're cheap .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So I guess it'd be something we could like attach to the {disfmarker} or like the same technology could be put inside the inside the remote .
Project Manager: Well if you're trying to avoid having a second product 'cause obviously you could have a second product that gave you the right pitch which would set the remote off to say here I am sort of thing , you know without sound recognition . But if you {disfmarker} I know . Um I was gonna say a sharp noise , you know a clapping of hand or whatever . {vocalsound} You'd want to try and av just have the one product that if {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah if we if we could have it in the actual remote like everything in one one device .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Um I dunno um talking about vo I mean obviously if you've got voice recognition then you can do it in that way because it'll recognise the voice and you can give it a command , a set command whatever that happened to be .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: But you've then got the point if if you're not going with uh voice recognition then {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap} you could have an option to turn it off . Or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Perhaps , um .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So that would solve the problems with the T_V_ kind of speaking to the remote and changing its own channels .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So uh {vocalsound} Any sugges Well , any conclusions ?
Marketing: Um would it take quite a while to sort of develop the speech recognition software in the remote control ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well if it does then we can't .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Considering {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's that simple ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: because we've got uh th th three um primary um uh requisites from uh from and email uh that was sent to me whereby we had {disfmarker} The design logo was one , which we've already mentioned . We've got um the remote was only for the television and not for {disfmarker} because that would make it too complex and we have to get it market quickly .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And the uh third thing was that um teletext uh as far as uh the management is concerned , um is becoming dated uh due to the popularity of the internet . So that means that uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: so these are the sort of three um extra parameters that have been put on this uh project .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So we're being focused effectively directly at a television and it seems to me that the management is uh wanting us to go down a narrow path and not opening out .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: So anything that uh is to be added , such as voice recognition et cetera has to be very simple and has to be very quick
Industrial Designer: Has to be simple enough to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: because time to market is is critical . S
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} I suppose if we could get something in which was quite quick and simple that would give us an advantage over the other remotes . Um .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: It would . But probably quick and simple is primary rather than added extras .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Added extras would be nice , but the primary consideration is to get the project finished within uh this short time window , which effectively now is sort of four hours .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} and if {disfmarker} and we've gotta get to the end . Uh d d I think I think first and foremost we've gotta get to the end and then get to the end with um added extras if possible .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} Right okay , uh so I need to {disfmarker} Right . So I don't know how long we have left of our uh time . But we have to make the decisions on uh the remote control functions
Marketing: About five minutes .
Project Manager: and how we were planning to proceed so that at the next uh meeting each person that's got a a a task to do is clear from this meeting what that task is .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: We'll also know w when the next meeting is
Industrial Designer: Um . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I um {disfmarker} so we'll know how long we've got to complete that task . And then we can report back at the next meeting and say right okay yes , we've achieved this or we haven't achieved this , this is how far we've progressed . Does that make reasonable sense ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yes that seems right .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay , yeah .
Project Manager: So we have to come effectively to the decision on the remote functions so that you can decide what you're gonna be doing . And if dur between the time of this meeting finishing and the next meeting starting , if you get any additional information that uh only you have at that point in time you'd think would be relevant to other people in terms of their des decision making um process , then we should communicate that as quickly as possible and not wait until the next meeting .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Do it via the email
Marketing: Okay . Yep .
Project Manager: so that rather than coming you know {disfmarker} If you get the information just before the next meeting that's fine . Come along with it in the next meeting , we can discuss it then and take whatever action is appropriate .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: But if you get it well before the next meeting , let everybody else know 'cause that might have an impact on their uh {disfmarker} on what they come up with {vocalsound} effectively at the next meeting .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Right , is there {disfmarker}
Marketing: So do we need to decide on the functions now ? S
Project Manager: I would guess so .
User Interface: Well I think it'd be really easy and it'd be a big advantage if we did have some sort of um kind of whistle back kind of function .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: 'Cause that'll solve kind of the frustration of losing it .
Marketing: Yeah and {disfmarker} Yeah and that was that was the number one sort of frustration that people said , so .
Project Manager: Yep .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I don't think there's anything else on the market that does that , so .
User Interface: Yeah . I don't really know about the voice recognition thing .
Project Manager: I {vocalsound} w well uh i
Industrial Designer: Maybe we should concentrate just on the whistle back function at the moment ,
Project Manager: Something simple . Uh if if our primary consideration is to get it there in time , time's short ,
Industrial Designer: and if something comes back {disfmarker}
Project Manager: you want something to meet the major concerns of the consumer so that we can have that as a selling point for the product ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: something that's quick and simple . So ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: sounds good .
User Interface: And that wouldn't put off the kind of older generation either , 'cause everyone can whistle or clap , and they wouldn't have to be kind of scared of this new technology .
Project Manager: Well , so maybe a clap rather than a whistle would be {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: On the basis that if we've got {disfmarker} if we're catering to the whole age range , you want something that's easy to do ,
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: now something that doesn't like whis uh
Marketing: No not everyone can whistle , can they , though ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well I I I don't know . Well If you think that more people can whistle than clap then that's fine , then go for that option ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but if {disfmarker} I would have thought that more people could clap rather than whistle ,
Marketing: No ,
Industrial Designer: I'd go more {disfmarker}
Marketing: clapping , I think clapping ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , f more for clap .
Marketing: yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: so uh so clap option .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: 'Kay we've already decided that we don't need a teletext button , haven't we ?
Project Manager: Uh . Ef effectively that's what the that's what they're saying ,
User Interface: Is that one of the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: that uh if uh if people are now using the internet then you don't need teletext ,
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so so take out teletext .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Taking out teletext , okay .
Industrial Designer: Did we decide on having the ten um the ten numbers
User Interface: Right .
Industrial Designer: and then the the little digit next to it which kind of enabled you to put them together .
User Interface: Yeah , I think so , so zero to nine .
Marketing: Mm . I think nowadays you can just get ones where it gives you a sort of a second or two to press another number ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: so you can press any two and it'll sort of put them together .
Industrial Designer: Okay , ten numbers
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and then some kind of device to allow uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I'll put delay to allow um multiple numbers .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Or multiple digits .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Did we decide anything about um the other functions ? As in setting the audio and tuning it and stuff like that ? You had an had an idea about the menu ?
Marketing: Uh {vocalsound} we could possibly put an L_ {disfmarker} a sort of a L_C_D_ menu in , but that again is probably an expense that {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But just thinking um people probably {disfmarker} I mean you don't have {disfmarker} you only have to probably tune in the T_V_ once , but you have to be able to tune it that once .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So and if finally the T_V_ breaks , you get a new one , you're gonna have to be able to tune it . You can't really avoid that .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: Except the new digital markets which do it by themselves .
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: But the but that's relying on the television market changing to an automatic
Industrial Designer: So that'll be in {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: and if it is at the moment , that's fine . But at the moment it's not , so it seems to me that you have to have a device that caters , 'cause otherwise it would make it {disfmarker} uh your device would become inoperable , or only operable in certain circumstances
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: and the idea is to have an international market
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: which is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: And it's also m it's the the product we've got is something that's at the I would have said the lower end of the s of the cost scale , so we're not really going for something that's uh terribly high-tech .
Marketing: Yeah . I s I suppose um if people are buying remotes , then they're probably buying it to replace another remote
Project Manager: Possibly .
Marketing: 'cause all most tellies come with remotes , so .
Project Manager: That's right .
Marketing: I mean we're maybe talking about replacing remotes for slightly older televisions , so we maybe need to keep the the tuning function in . {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . So how would this menu function work ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Would you maybe have like one menu button , then you'd use the other buttons , maybe the number buttons to actually do the separate functions .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah ,
Marketing: Yeah ,
User Interface: like the volume or something .
Marketing: that would be a good idea , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah , 'cause you do need um kind of brightness and contrast and everything as well . My dad was watching a film the other week
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and it was too dark , so I had to go through it and turn the brightness up .
Industrial Designer: {gap} {gap} we're gonna have the the individual numbers
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: and then a menu function and maybe sort of a slightly more advanced um instruction booklet to come with it , to guide {disfmarker} Presu uh I think it'd be quite hard just for people to grasp um just off like the menu {gap} use different buttons you maybe have to have like some better instructions of how that would actually work .
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} I'm not sure whether the sort of having people have a booklet 'cause one {disfmarker} the second most annoying thing that people found was having to learn the new one .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right , okay um .
Marketing: So maybe next to each of the buttons , you know each of them could have a number and then also a function written next to it , so you're basically pressing {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap} that also goes back to the original design when we saw those two , and there was the one on the left hand side which had all like the double functions and stuff which kind of looked too busy and had too much on it , so .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Okay , well .
User Interface: Well , if we're trying to keep it slee sleek and sexy as well , have you seen those remotes where kind of um the bottom bit slides down , so there's kind of um everything else revealed ?
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So y Ah That's a very good idea .
User Interface: So you don't use it that much , you don't have to see it all the time . But it's all there if you need it .
Industrial Designer: That is that is a good idea actually .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Sor sort of a second .
Project Manager: So you keep um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Like a hidden panel .
Project Manager: Right we've got five minutes before we wind up this meeting , so I've been told . I don't know if you've got the same .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Uh not quite , but I guess {gap} .
Project Manager: Okay . So so keep um keep detailed functions um hidden at the back .
Industrial Designer: Keep the other buttons but hide them away .
User Interface: Hmm . And that'll be better for the older generation as well 'cause , well my dad doesn't like anything that you've got to kinda flick through a menu ,
Project Manager: Ah .
User Interface: but he can pretty much read a button if it's displayed properly .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So um {vocalsound} we're gonna have to have to work out what's gonna be on these other functions as as well . So we're gonna have like two separate two separate lists , I guess .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: That's right .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {gap} data functions hidden at back . Can bring out when needed .
Marketing: So th the {disfmarker} The detailed ones would be sort of brightness ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: uh sorta {disfmarker}
Project Manager: That's right so we're dis So you've got which ones are gonna be on the front and which ones are gonna be on the back . We have to decide .
Industrial Designer: So sh Should we decide in the next couple of minutes , and then {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: I guess so .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So on the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So on front ,
Industrial Designer: {gap} about the number {gap} .
Project Manager: numbers ,
Industrial Designer: Um the volume up and down .
User Interface: And the volume ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} volume .
Industrial Designer: Shall we have a mute button as well ?
User Interface: Um .
Project Manager: Sorry ?
Industrial Designer: A mute button as well .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah I think they're handy .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . And probably a power one as well . {vocalsound} Dunno .
User Interface: I know it's probably like um not an issue to raise here , but um the whole thing about not using your standby uh because of the like waste of electricity {gap} . Have you seen the adverts ? Like if you boil the kettle that's full that's a waste .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: If you leave your telly on standby it powers Blackpool for a certain amount of time .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Like we should maybe try to discourage people from standby .
Industrial Designer: But then they might not buy it if they haven't got one . 'Cause people might just be too fickle and not want to change .
User Interface: Yeah , it's maybe too much of a big issue for here .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So so are you having the stand-by on the front , then ?
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We can send out a flier with the device saying that you shouldn't leave it on stand-by .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh-oh danger sign .
Industrial Designer: I think you probably should .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , but a little bit smaller .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Compromise .
Project Manager: Well {vocalsound} {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Um are we gonna have the channel up and down as well as the number buttons ?
Marketing: Um 'cause yeah the market research said there is quite a lot of people do just zap around and flick , so .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so we'll have um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Right .
Industrial Designer: So we've got ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen sixteen there ?
Project Manager: Channel up and down .
Marketing: Um .
Project Manager: What else have we got ? What was that , sixteen ?
Marketing: Numbers is ten , volume is twelve ,
Project Manager: Volume button . How many volumes ?
Marketing: th Yeah si One up , one down .
Project Manager: Right okay .
User Interface: On mute .
Marketing: And a mute , yeah . That's sixteen isn't it , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Is there anything else ? Um .
Marketing: I don't think so , no .
Project Manager: Power button , stand-by , channel , up and down . So is that it ?
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: {gap} so .
Project Manager: Okay . That's sixteen buttons , you reckon . And then at the back ?
Marketing: You've got brightness and contrast .
Industrial Designer: Maybe if we're gonna run out of time , one of us should come up with a list of these and then get back at the next meeting just at the start and say what they're gonna be .
User Interface: And then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . So on the back it'll have brightness , contrast ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: anything else ? You're also gonna have the channel tuner {gap} , as it were .
User Interface: Uh there's audio functions .
Industrial Designer: So tuner up and down , I guess .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Tuner , would that have up and down ? {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Um up {disfmarker} Tune one way , tune the o
User Interface: I think they normally do .
Project Manager: {gap} okay {gap} . Okay .
Industrial Designer: I I dunno I dunno possibly .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: And then maybe sort of an enter button for sort of s you know , saying that you want that particular thing tuned in . So you go up and down and then it pick it finds something and then you wanna press enter to select it , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah and th and a enter button just to select . Yeah , okay . Um I guess we're keeping s it simple . We don't really need any other audio funct uh functions because it's just volume up , volume down .
Project Manager: Um up volume , yeah , I would have thought so .
Industrial Designer: Um .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: So I think um there's quite a lot of like Dolby surround studio , surround sort of things .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Do they have their own {disfmarker} do they have their own controls on their actual products , then ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Um maybe for the younger market .
Industrial Designer: or do you have to do it via the remote ?
User Interface: Um I think they've got their own controls in this kind of like hidden panel .
Industrial Designer: Yeah I suppose if we've got their {disfmarker} if they've got their own controls then we can avoid it for ours just to keep it simple .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Oh no , I mean um like there's kind of individual buttons for them , like on the T_V_ remote .
Industrial Designer: Oh , okay . Right .
User Interface: But I don't really know what they're for ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I've never used them .
Industrial Designer: Um .
User Interface: I just know they're something to do with Dolby .
Industrial Designer: Maybe unless something comes up then we should I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well you might get some research . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well shall we look into that and just get back together .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Right so I'll do the minutes of uh this meeting .
User Interface: Right .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: And we'll meet back at I'm not sure . Um forty minutes , I believe is the time .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Come on . | |
doc_126 | Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} Je croix que c'est dommage de le {disfmarker} it will be sad to destroy this prototype . It really looks like a banana .
User Interface: {vocalsound} It is a banana .
Project Manager: It is a banana . {vocalsound}
User Interface: It is the essence of bananas . I would be confused with this thing .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: S
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: How is everyone ?
Project Manager: Hi .
Industrial Designer: Hi .
Project Manager: So we are here for the detailed design meeting .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: we will uh {disfmarker} I will first present what we are going to do in this meeting . Then uh I've {disfmarker} I will also take notes during this meeting and I will send you uh a summary then as usual . We will then look at the evaluation criteria of the prototype presented by uh our two colleagues that make good work .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And uh then we will see the financial aspects and the cost of the product . Then we will uh evaluate the product . And uh end with the conclusion of this project and see whether it fits with {disfmarker} it fulf if it fulfil the requirement or not . So
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: d let's start with the cost aspect so so I look at the aspect discussed last time , that is to say uh to have a standard battery , {vocalsound} to have a yellow banana shaped uh case with uh a rubber material around it
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: to be uh to feel spongy ,
User Interface: Like a banana .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} and uh also at the different aspect like having a wheel etcetera .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And the cost ended to be ten point seven Euros . So which is uh good , because we had a price gap of twelve point five Euros .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So for the financial aspect it's okay , we can uh {disfmarker} we can continue with this product uh as if ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} and we are now going to see the project evaluation with uh our marketing expert .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Okay . So uh you can have my project in {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . You have a presentation ?
Marketing: Uh yeah just a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Participant four , yes .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Four . Evaluation .
Project Manager: Okay . Okay .
Marketing: Okay . So you can go . We can go through .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So I made an evaluation and the the evaluation criteria is made according to {vocalsound} the users' requirements and the market trends we talked about uh during the previous uh meetings . So you can go through and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: okay so uh we have uh six points . We we talked about before .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So we we want to have a product fancy look and feel , technologically innovative , easy to use , fashion , {vocalsound} easy to find in a room , and robust ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: uh and uh uh I have a scale of uh seven points .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay . So I go through all the uh all the points here ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: and uh according to what you think about the this project you can uh mm make a one point , two point or seven point . Okay ?
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: And after we ha we have an an average , and uh we see .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: The {disfmarker} okay ? {vocalsound} Uh so uh fancy look and feel , what do you think ?
Project Manager: Okay . Maybe you can presen {vocalsound}
Marketing: F between o one and seven .
Project Manager: okay . Maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} hold it .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So I think it's uh very uh very nice . What do you think ?
User Interface: I give it a {disfmarker} I give it a five .
Project Manager: Yeah . So it's between one and seven ? Seven is the highest uh ?
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} Seven is the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I will give a six .
Industrial Designer: I will give a a five .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} And you ?
Marketing: {gap} sorry .
User Interface: Do you vote uh Christine ?
Marketing: {gap} eh ?
User Interface: Do you also vote ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} No , I just want to see something {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Maybe we all have to agree on a common {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , we can {gap} very easily {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh I think uh {gap} {vocalsound} and need to {gap} as well {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: No problem . So
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Need to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: this is your {disfmarker}
Marketing: uh I don't know if you {disfmarker} we ha we have to put uh one uh f If it's better or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: One is most {gap} .
User Interface: I {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh-uh .
Project Manager: Well , we can choose what we want .
Marketing: Um . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , let's say that seven is the best .
Marketing: Or maybe we can say s seven is the best mm {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Okay . So so do note the grade we have five , six for me ,
Industrial Designer: Five .
Project Manager: five . And what what's your choice ?
Marketing: Oh sorry . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: How much would you give on the fancy aspect , on the fashionable aspect ?
Marketing: Six {disfmarker} Uh s you can {disfmarker} how much what ?
Project Manager: How much would you {disfmarker} you don't answer to this uh questionnaire ?
Marketing: Oh yes I mm I dunno mm , I think six , it's a good uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: So it will have five point five average .
Project Manager: Five point five average .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Wa can {gap} . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Well , does it {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I sorry .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay . So after , the technological aspect ?
Project Manager: Okay , techne technological aspect .
Marketing: So we we said uh we have uh a new technological uh thing with a wheel .
Project Manager: Yeah , we have the wheel . We also have the rubber material ,
Marketing: Uh .
Project Manager: which make it uh like new also . I think I would give a five .
User Interface: It's {gap} four .
Project Manager: Four ?
Industrial Designer: A four also , because , except for the wheel , we don't have so much innovation .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: The rubber is {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Uh a four . I I {disfmarker}
User Interface: D are we including the voice {disfmarker} are you glu are we including the voice in the end or not ? Huh ?
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: No . Okay .
Project Manager: So
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: what's your uh grade ?
Marketing: Four .
Project Manager: Four ? So we have four , four f and five ?
Marketing: We can put four ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , four . Four , yeah , let's put four .
User Interface: For twenty five .
Marketing: Everyone is okay or {disfmarker} four poin Four .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Doesn't it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Very easy to use . Do you think it's easy to use ?
Project Manager: Yeah , I think so . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: I give a seven , I think .
Industrial Designer: Six .
Project Manager: I would give a {disfmarker} I would give a seven as well . It's very easy to use .
Industrial Designer: Six .
Marketing: Mm , six for me also .
Project Manager: So
User Interface: 'Kay .
Marketing: Six point five . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: six point five .
Industrial Designer: Six six six point five .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound} Is it fashion ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh yeah ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: its its f its fruit fruit shape .
Marketing: Seven ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I would say seven . And is very very nice design .
Marketing: Yeah it's fashion , because it's a fruit ,
User Interface: Yeah , we can we can put a seven here .
Marketing: and we say that the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , seven .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: yeah , seven .
Project Manager: Yeah . Seven , okay .
User Interface: Yeah . Well , we hope .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Easy to find .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh easy to find in a room ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I lost my banana . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think you can't miss it .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: Uh .
User Interface: Yeah , I think it's cool . I think we can put a six here .
Marketing: We have the lightning , or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , we have {vocalsound} the {vocalsound}
Marketing: The lighting .
Project Manager: we don't sesh especially have the lightning
User Interface: {vocalsound} So you'll make the material transparent
Project Manager: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so that it uh lights up completely , or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So it's yellow . It's okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . {gap}
Project Manager: I think it's very easy to {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Seven ?
Project Manager: I would say seven . It's hard to miss it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Six . Yeah , okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Is it {disfmarker} is it robust ?
Project Manager: Yeah , it's rubber , made of rubber ,
Industrial Designer: Uh f yeah , it's ru it's rubber .
Project Manager: I think it's m it's uh more rubber than uh other remote control .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah the only problem there might be {disfmarker} which {gap} know , i if it's very sensitive ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: they will ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: I don't know {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But it is uh {disfmarker} it is surrounded by rubber material .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , okay .
Project Manager: So maybe we can put a six .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Everybody is okay , six .
Industrial Designer: Six or five . Five {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Six is okay ?
User Interface: Six , yeah , for me .
Industrial Designer: Six .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: S now {vocalsound} um so .
Project Manager: Tadada . We have to sum up everything .
User Interface: Twenty .
Marketing: Thirteen uh , twenty , twenty six point five , uh seven , thirty two , thirty six {gap} .
User Interface: Thirty . Thir
Marketing: That's that's okay ? Six .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Six is a good {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Good . Uh if we say that seven it's uh it's the better ,
Project Manager: Yeah , the be .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Yeah , the top {disfmarker}
Marketing: and when uh s six sit six are good {disfmarker} it's a good uh p product , I think .
Project Manager: Okay , so six is a {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm . So will become eight soon ?
Project Manager: So it's a good evaluation , I think . It's very promising .
User Interface: Yeah , well it's a bit biased . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Huh .
Marketing: We have a good price and uh {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So this prototype is quite nice . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Good .
User Interface: Because I saw uh some phones that were banana shaped , uh wireless phones not mobile ones , wireless for the house ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay .
User Interface: uh quite big also ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and they were selling {gap} something like a hundred Euros , two hundred Euros .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Just a {vocalsound} just a phone , wireless .
Project Manager: So having this at twenty five Euros is uh quite attractive , I think .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I think the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But almo also the complexity between a phone and a remote control is not {disfmarker} cannot compare .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: it's much more complex , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So , I think , we can summarise . So we have seen the prototype . It's very nice according to the work of our two designer .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The the the financial aspect were okay . We we have the cost below uh our threshold and so we could sell at twenty five Euros and make i make profit . The the evaluation give satisfying result as well . So I think we can move to the last part of the meeting .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So the cost is in the budget , the evaluation is okay , so I th I think we can now uh open champagne and make a huge party .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Start to eat banana . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't know if it's provided by uh by the meeting staff .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay so congratulation . {vocalsound} Nice product .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Congratulations to the team . Uh very well , we worked together fantastically .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think it was a good collaboration uh . Aspect .
User Interface: {vocalsound} So what does the management say ?
Project Manager: Sorry ?
User Interface: What does the management say ?
Project Manager: I think we will have um much bigger project next time and a much bigger salary as well .
User Interface: Ah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: All it depends on who watch this meeting .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We don't know . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , so
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: good guys {vocalsound} ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so see you for next uh successful project . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay . Yeah . Fruits .
Marketing: Mm 'kay .
User Interface: Mm . | |
doc_127 | Project Manager: Good morning , again .
Industrial Designer: One question .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Send .
User Interface: Choose a number ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Submit . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yep yep yep yep .
Project Manager: All set ?
Industrial Designer: Mm . Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Good . Okay . Let's see what we can find here . Okay . A very warm welcome again to everyone .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um here we are already at our uh functional design meeting . Um and this is what we are going to do . The opening , which we are doing now , um and the special note , I'm project manager but on the meetings I'm also the secretary , which means I will make uh minutes as I did of the previous meeting .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And uh I also put these as fast as possible in the uh project folder , so you can see them and review what we have discussed . Um if I'm right , there are three presentations , I guess each one of you has prepared one ? Good .
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: And um we will also take a look at new project requirements , um if you haven't heard about them yet . And then of course we have to take a decision on the remote control functions and we have some more time , forty minutes . But I think we will need it . Um well I don't know who wants to go first with his presentation .
Industrial Designer: I'll go first . Okay . I'll go first yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: You can go first , okay .
User Interface: Well .
Marketing: Well , shall I go first with the users ?
User Interface: Well {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think {disfmarker} well okay no problem . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Is there an order ? I haven't {disfmarker}
User Interface: everybody already has his presentation ,
Marketing: Ja precies , ja precies , ja precies
User Interface: {vocalsound} so you can adjust it . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So . Huh ? Okay , um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And one question , uh your name Denni , is it with a
Marketing: E_I_E_ .
Project Manager: I_E_ {disfmarker} E_I_E_ , okay . Thank you .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay , um I wanted to explain the working design of the remote control . It's possibly very handy if you want to uh design one of those . Um {vocalsound} well so it basically works uh as I uh uh r wrote down uh in this uh little uh summary . Uh when you press a button , {vocalsound} uh that's when you do pr for example when you uh want to turn up the volume , um a little connection is made uh the the rubber uh {vocalsound} button just presses on a
Project Manager: Sorry . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: on a little print plate uh which uh makes uh uh {vocalsound} a connection that uh gives the chips , uh which is uh mounted beneath those uh that plastic of a rubber button . Uh senses that a connection has been made , and know and knows what button you pressed , becau uh for example the the volume up or volume down button . Um uh the the chip uh makes a Morse code uh like uh signal which uh then is si uh signalled {vocalsound} to uh several transistors which makes uh which sends the signal to a little let . You know what a let is ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay . {vocalsound} And that makes uh the the infra-red lights signal which is sent to the television set . Uh which has a sensor in it to uh sense uh the signal of the infra-red . That's basically uh how it works . Um the findings uh uh that I found uh searching up some uh detailed information about the remote controls , are that uh they are very easy to produce , uh it is pis uh it's possible to uh make them in mass production because it is as eas it is as easy as uh printing a page , uh just uh fibreglass plate um is b uh is uh covered with uh some uh coatings and uh uh {vocalsound} and chips .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh and the technology's already available , we don't have to find out how remote controls uh have to work or uh how that how uh to make some chips that are possible to uh to to transmit those uh signals . Uh I made a little uh uh animation of {vocalsound} about how a tran our uh remote controller works .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: Oh right .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Animation . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} we tel
User Interface: There is something turning .
Industrial Designer: There .
Project Manager: Yeah , it's a little bug it's in the in the smart board . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay . Uh well
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: the sub-component , I suppose that you understand what a sub-component is , is f in this example it's the button . Uh when it is pressed down , um , the switch is ter is uh is switched on , so with uh the wire is sent to the to the chip in uh co-operation with the battery of course , because to make uh a a signal possible you have to have some sort of uh li uh a d ad uh electronic uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Infrared light .
Industrial Designer: Yes , uh , okay . Um w after it's being composed by the chip uh the signal uh is transported uh to the infra-red bulb , and from there it signals a Morse code-like signal to the to the b to the bulb in uh in the television set . Okay . S Uh I wrote down some personal preferences about uh the remote control . Of course it is very handy if the remote control is hand held , so you don't have to uh uh wind it up or something , or just is it's it's very light to uh to make uh to use it . Uh I personally uh pref prefer that uh it would be p uh come available in the various colours , and uh easy to use buttons . But I suppose that the one of the other team members uh uh thought of that uh too . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , I've got it there too . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And it is possible for several designs and um easy to use b uh sorry , easy to use buttons . Perhaps soft touch , uh touch screen uh buttons because uh the rubber buttons are always uh uh they uh slightly uh they can be slightly damaged ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: uh so the numbers on the buttons are not possible uh to read anymore . And uh well as I said uh before th uh we can uh make several designs . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay , well , that's my contribution to this meeting , and uh
Marketing: To this meeting . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , thank you .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: two of these this meeting . So .
User Interface: Shall I go uh next ?
Project Manager: Yep .
User Interface: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Please .
User Interface: So .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Smoking .
User Interface: Well uh , my name's {gap} , and I looked at uh technical functions design of the remote . Uh I did this by uh looking at examples of other remote controls , of how they uh they look , and information from the web that I found . Um well what I found was that uh th the actual use of the remote control is to send messages to television set , how you uh d what you described uh just early . And this can be all sorts of medsa messages , turn it on , turn it off , uh change the channel , adjust volume , that kind of thing . Uh play video , teletext , but also t uh play C_D_ if you use it your C_D_ player the remote control will that one . There are some uh examples of remote controls . You can see they are very different . The one has got all the functions that you could possibly need and an lot of uh buttons etcetera . And the other is uh more user friendly , little with big buttons . And uh not n all the the the the stuff you can do with it , but uh the the essential stuff is there . Um {vocalsound} I guess you could better y you should look at a a user centred uh approach , because the customers have to use them and and if they don't think it's usable they won't uh buy it . A lot of buttons they may think from I don't need s as much as that . Uh , well perf personal preferences is is uh a simple remote , with uh the basic functions that you can need that you could use . But uh keep in mind the new functions of T_V_ what we discussed earlier , split screen and uh is that a function that you should have ? Because all the T_V_s will have them . Or because of only a few and isn't really necessary . And then uh make it {disfmarker} I would make so that you can could uh use it on more than one appliance . If you have one that uh uh does with the vi the the video , it could also work with uh with the stereo , because play is play and stop stop and that sort of thing . The shu c you could reuse the buttons so that you don't have to have a lot of buttons for uh anything . And it should be a user friendly , clear buttons , and not too much . And that is my presentation .
Project Manager: Okay , thank you .
Industrial Designer: Okay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: 'Kay . Check . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You must still have it open .
Marketing: Kijke {gap} 'Kay , so . {vocalsound} We're going to j discuss the functional requirements of the remote , that m that means that functions user n want to have on the remote control , or just {disfmarker} Yeah , and the users , actually .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: The methods I I prefer is we're going to look which section of the users we are going to focus a l on more . Are the younger people going to buy the remote control or the elderly people ? And then {disfmarker} tho that section we're going to focus and adjust the remote more to that section than the whole user section . Okay . Some data . Younger people , from sixteen to thir forty five um years are more interested in fj features like L_C_D_ screens , speech recognition e etcetera . And we possess about two third of the market from in that range of age . The elderly people , from forty five years to sixty five years are not that much interested in features , and we possess less than two third , that's two fifth , of the market share in that area . {gap} Goed so .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: 'Kay . Findings . Fifty percent of the users lose their remote often .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So we don't have to make it very small , like uh like a mobile phone or something , but some somewhat bi bigger than small , so you don't lose it that much anymore . {vocalsound} Seventy five percent of the users also find it ugly ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: and fif seventy five of the users zap a lot , so the buttons sh should be that small , or shouldn't be that complex because we have to search for the buttons , which one are you going to use . Next . Important issues about the remote . I think it would be better with a personal reference , but okay . Remote control has to have to have a low power usage , because s w seventy five percent of the users only zap one time an hour , so the power usage is also one one time an hour , or so , with a high power usage we would use a lot of but batteries . The volume button and the channel buttons are the two most important buttons on the remote control , so those {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} those have to h be find very easily . And have to be somewhat like bigger etcetera . It has also be {disfmarker} have to find easily when the label is gone . My colleague also announced it that labels should be scratched off
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: or would be s uh {gap} senden {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: okay . {vocalsound} So uh if that's k uh if that's the problem , you also have to find it easily on the remote . Buttons . Like what all colleagues said , have to have to be minimalized . or should be covered , or in L_C_D_ screen . L_C_D_ screen is easy because we have the L_C_D_ screen , we have the various options . Put one option and then you have the all the buttons of that options , so the other options would be gone . And you don't see the buttons . So L_C_D_ screens should be easy , but an L_C_D_ screen , the problem with the L_ sc L_C_D_ screen is that elderly people fr from forty five to for sixty five years don't use the L_C_D_ screen a lot . So we have to that keep that in mind that if you're going to implement L_C_D_ screen , you don't have to make it that hard to learn or to use .
Industrial Designer: Uh L_C_D_ screen as in uh touch screen ?
Marketing: Yeah , touch screen , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: The last but not least , younger people are more critical about the features . Because they use the remote control often more often , and are more technical than the ol older people . And the older people spend more money , and easily on a remote control .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Marketing: So we have to keep in mind to to focus not a lot {disfmarker} not that much on the younger pep younger people , but also somewhat on the elderly people . And on my personal preferences , I don't have any mo more time to come with that ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: but like I said , L_C_D_ screen is easily to use
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: because you have {disfmarker} you can implement a lot of buttons in one remote with not that much buttons . And it should be easy to use . Especially the volume buttons , the channel buttes buttons and the number buttons to zap through the channels . And that is it .
Project Manager: Okay ,
Industrial Designer: Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: thank you .
User Interface: Oh right . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um , well thank you all , huh . {vocalsound} I dunno uh did everyone receive an email with uh the new project requirements ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} No . Res I did not .
Project Manager: No ? Well ,
User Interface: Perhaps the rest ?
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: then I think it's a good thing that I made a separate slide of them
Marketing: Ja , {gap}
Project Manager: so you can all read them . Oh , well not in this presentation . Hmm
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Should be in there . Well , I can tell you them uh from my laptop . Um teletext does {disfmarker} has become outdated since the popularity of the internet .
User Interface: Oh . Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So that's uh the first thing we I think we should pay less attention to uh teletext . Uh the remote control should only be used for the television , otherwise the project becomes more complex , which endangers the time to market , and of course would make it more costly , I think . Um our current customers are within the age group of forty plus , and new product should reach a new market with customers that are younger than forty , and you talked about that before . And uh a last point , but also very important , our corporate image should stay recognisable in our products , which means that our uh corporate colour and slogan must be implemented in the new design . So we have to keep that in mind . Um well uh according to our agenda it's then time to take a decision on the remote control functions . So , who has any idea about what should be on it , and what shouldn't ?
User Interface: Well you said it should only uh work with one appliance ?
Marketing: Be television .
User Interface: Or with one uh d che only the T_V_ ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Only be used for television .
User Interface: And the video also , or not uh ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well it says only for television here , huh .
Marketing: Only the television .
User Interface: Oh . Alright . Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Makes it a lot easier , huh ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: So yeah , then you can yeah . Requirements , no ? Functions .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Then it should have uh on , off ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah for {disfmarker}
User Interface: and uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Standby options ,
Marketing: Yeah , the basics then by a volume , channel , one till two zero numbers on it ,
Industrial Designer: yeah ? Uh yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . And per perhaps uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: oh teletext doesn't have to be ?
User Interface: No .
Marketing: Um other functions .
User Interface: Well uh uh yes yes s sh A button where you can uh change from one number to two numbers .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah I had {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Two s two two digits ,
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: Can you {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: oh okay .
User Interface: Don't know if that's got a name ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah I understand what you mean . Yeah .
User Interface: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think it's I think it's easy to implement a button with a s s what which especially do that , because some T_V_s , if you press the t one and then the two , it be between five secs it make twelve ,
Industrial Designer: It makes it twelve , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . S
Industrial Designer: Indeed . Okay .
Marketing: and that's that's not relaxed
Industrial Designer: Well , not really {vocalsound}
Marketing: to user .
Industrial Designer: And and there are some models that don't uh accommodate that function . So
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: d uh wh the Philip's television makes it possible in that indeed to uh press one and then two to make uh the uh tj to reach channel twelve .
Marketing: So that it {vocalsound} easy and fast .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But uh all the television makes uh use of those button where you first press that button and then press two digits to uh to get
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah , so you should have that one on .
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah , think so .
Marketing: Our main targets' age are ? were ? Forty five plus , or ?
User Interface: Mute misschien also .
Project Manager: Uh well
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: new product should reach a market with customers that are younger than forty , and now we have current customers uh of forty plus .
Marketing: Forties , okay because {vocalsound} because younger people as Uh younger people have now , sixteen till to twenty five age , are f eighty one percent interested in L_C_D_ screen . From twenty six to thirty five have sixty six percent , and thirty six to forty five , fifty five percent , so I think to um {disfmarker} Because on most recog remote controls um the print plate will be broken how much , two years . You have to press h very hard to go to the next channel .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: With the L_C_D_ screen it's easier because you only have to wipe the screen to uh {disfmarker} for fingerprint ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , we we could yeah . But I think that uh that collides with our mission to make it very cheap .
Marketing: and then you can use it again .
Industrial Designer: Because L_C_D_ screens are very expensive .
Marketing: Yeah , okay .
User Interface: An
Industrial Designer: A touch screen uh probably uh even more .
Marketing: Yeah but a {disfmarker} you don't know {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So ,
Marketing: True .
Industrial Designer: true , true .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But uh {disfmarker} Well um is it possible to make an L_C_D_ screen uh , how was the information ?
Marketing: Yeah , it only says that this perce percentage like L_C_D_ screen . Because , yeah and it says that younger age between sixteen and forty five highly interesting features more critical .
Industrial Designer: So perhaps we should we should focus on that L_C_D_ screen .
Marketing: {vocalsound} And if the only f Yeah , because our target is sixteen to forty five .
User Interface: But , do you {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah but uh will we not uh exceed our uh our uh production uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah you don't know how much it costs . Yeah , you don't know how much it costs , the L_C_D_ screen .
Industrial Designer: Is it possible to find out , anyway ?
Marketing: No , I don't have any costs here ,
Industrial Designer: You know ?
Marketing: I only have percentages .
User Interface: But if you would do an L_C_D_ screen do we have don don't you have any buttons ? Or because if it only directs at the T_V_ , then you only have uh I don't know what you want to do with the L_C_D_ screen .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: No , an L_C_D_ screen's just like uh like a drawn here . Um just uh displays several buttons ,
User Interface: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: for example um if you wanted the minimal uh use b uh buttons , such as channel and volume , you just h uh displays four buttons on the screen
User Interface: Oh right , so you can {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and it's possible to p uh press them down , just like a touch screen .
User Interface: Oh , yeah alright . So you can adjust which buttons you want on that s screen .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , we can make it possible to do that , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , if you want to adjust , like for example , adjust the audio settings , you press audio on the touchscreen
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah .
Marketing: and you get the buttons for audio settings ,
User Interface: Yeah alright , oh right .
Marketing: so the other buttons are gone .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: So we're going for an L_C_D_ screen ?
User Interface: Yeah . Would be yeah .
Marketing: I think it's the most easier thing ,
Industrial Designer: That's my uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And hoping that when we produce a lot it won't be too expensive .
Marketing: yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well we had twelve fifty , I guess , for uh production ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: No . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Twelve fifty .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um .
User Interface: Any guesses ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well I suppose wi if the mar if our um {vocalsound} if the i if the young people are interested in L_C_D_ screens , we should make 'em .
Marketing: Highly .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And if that is our d uh market share to uh and our goal to uh deliver those uh remote controls {disfmarker}
User Interface: But {disfmarker} But he also said that we should not only focus on the younger people , but also on the older , and will they use it if it only has an L_C_D_ screen ?
Marketing: Yeah , but {disfmarker} Um , s forty six to forty five , thirty three percent , and sixty fifty six to sixty five twelve percent .
User Interface: Oh , so still a little bit people {disfmarker}
Marketing: But our our our what's it , project requirements are the new products should be reached for new markets , to customers that are younger than forty .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah that's right . But you don't want to alienate the other uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: No , that not now , but , so {disfmarker}
User Interface: But if they also buy it then it's alright . I guess .
Marketing: Yeah , but market share fro for for forty years and younger is higher than that of sixty five and younger .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . Alright .
Project Manager: Okay , so L_C_D_ it is ?
User Interface: An Yes .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Mm . It's treasure .
Project Manager: And what else ?
Industrial Designer: I hope we uh h and let's hope to reach those uh those sales .
Marketing: Yeah , i i if it {disfmarker} Yeah , if it costs {disfmarker} gets too much , too expensive , then yeah , we should be sticking to rubber buttons .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , can you um uh s I think that that they will send you some information about uh the cost of L_C_D_ uh screens .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: N nothing , no costs at all .
User Interface: But perhaps later ,
Industrial Designer: Uh so if you uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: so uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , so if you uh you receive an email about that , uh can you post it in the {disfmarker} or shouldn't we post that in uh our projects mail uh folder .
Marketing: Yeah , in {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I think that should yeah {disfmarker} I think we all get the costs of everything .
User Interface: I don't {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Because you are the the Marketing uh Expert .
Marketing: Yeah , okay , I'll I'll post it .
Industrial Designer: I uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well perhaps we should have a backup plan that we would use buttons if it's uh {vocalsound} too expensive .
Industrial Designer: Yeah sure , sure .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , okay . But for now it's L_C_D_ . Okay .
Marketing: Okay , L_C_D_ , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Then you have the seventy five percent of users find it r ugly .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: The L_C_D_ ? Oh that's a bit of a problem . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , and eighty percent of the users would spend more money with a when a remote would look fancy .
User Interface: Oh , that's a bit of a problem .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Tha i l i it'll look fancy with L_C_D_ screen . {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's looks fancy one yeah , of L_C_D_ screen .
User Interface: Yeah , but they don't they don't like it .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: They think it's ugly . When it has an L_C_D_ screen .
Marketing: Yeah , just a {disfmarker} the plain remotes , not not specific L_C_D_ remotes .
User Interface: Oh , alright , I thought that you said that .
Project Manager: Yeah , and maybe you can make something fancy out of an L_C_D_ remote ,
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: because it's new , as far as I know . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , of course .
Industrial Designer: And then not {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: And then you have the other thing , that seventy five percent zap a lot , but that's not a f question with the L_C_D_ screen .
Industrial Designer: Um . Yeah .
Marketing: Only thing you have to do is wipe the screen off once each time , to get all the fingerprints off it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Okay ?
Project Manager: Okay , what else does our remote need ?
User Interface: A mute button .
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mute button .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I think . And {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} The most important things on a f on an on an uh remote control are channel selection , volume con selection ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: and power s power usage .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: And a teletext , but that is not of the question .
User Interface: But {disfmarker} But shouldn't you put a button of {disfmarker} for teletext on the {disfmarker} for the people who want to use it ?
Marketing: Other things are {disfmarker} Sorry ?
User Interface: Remembering we have got a big remote that you have to fill . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , it could be . Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Yeah , and we could make an a a separate menu on the L_C_D_ uh screen for teletext .
Marketing: Yeah , teletext .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And there's also a {disfmarker}
Marketing: And other other less important things are screen settings , audio settings , and channel settings ,
User Interface: Yeah , they are less important , but I think they should be there ,
Marketing: Less important .
User Interface: or not ?
Marketing: Yeah , should be there ,
Industrial Designer: A sh
Marketing: but not press {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but in a sub sub-menu or something like that .
Marketing: Yeah , sub-menu , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh I think it's also important to uh make it possible to um how do you call it in English , uh , to not use batteries , and use ac uh bat uh {gap} batteries to uh to be {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Like with a with a mouse , you have not , yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah yeah sure . Indeed . So uh you can mount uh the the the uh
Marketing: Yeah , in a breath it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: uh the remote control to um
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Charted .
User Interface: We should think of the twelve fifty we have
Industrial Designer: to refill the {disfmarker}
User Interface: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah ,
User Interface: I don't know how much that's going to uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: but we don't we don't have any costs now ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Okay ,
Marketing: so {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: because i uh when you get an L_C_D_ screen , you run it on batteries ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: the batteries will be uh empty very soon , very fast .
Marketing: Yeah e e power supply is one of the most important things .
User Interface: You should {disfmarker} Perhaps you should be able to to switch the control off .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: If you have an L_C_D_ screen that's burns all the time I dunno .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: You shouldn't on and off because that's ver extra , that you have t first you have to turn the remote on , and then you can uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I don't know .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , I think it's it's not that easy because I don't think people will like it who who uh that you have to turn it on first and then use it ,
User Interface: Nee that's that's uh yeah .
Marketing: so I think it's better when th the T_V_ shuts down , the remote shuts down .
User Interface: But then you can't {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And go to standby mode when you don't use it ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah yeah au automac matically , that it {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , automatically . After two minutes or three minutes , something like that .
Marketing: Yeah . After two minutes , yeah two three minutes , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . And maybe a low battery indicator ? On the screen .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Sure .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: And then b that uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: before an hour when its get again gets empty .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Then you have plenty of time to recharge it ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: of put it in a recharger . Charger .
Project Manager: So we are going for the for the recharger .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , if it's {gap} . Uh .
User Interface: If it's sensible . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , because when you're watching T_V_ , you're zapping and you have to put it in a recharger ,
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah , b when the batteries are low {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No ,
Marketing: and I don't think it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: when you when you're done with s uh w uh watching your television , you have to put it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , okay , but then we have to be sure that the the the the batteries go {vocalsound} hours , six hours , five , six hours , then .
User Interface: But you'll also forget to put it in ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah sure , of course .
User Interface: because you throw it on the couch
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
Marketing: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: then you have a problem .
User Interface: and you don't remember .
Industrial Designer: But you also forget to buy batteries ,
User Interface: Yeah . That's right .
Industrial Designer: and then you can you can't use it ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so I {disfmarker}
Marketing: Or we have to be sure that the batteries last couple of days when they're recharged .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Well I think the batteries should should w should work a lot longer than a couple of days ,
Marketing: So .
User Interface: or not ?
Marketing: Yeah because you have b
User Interface: 'Cause {disfmarker}
Marketing: but you have L_C_D_ screen .
User Interface: Yeah , that's right , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: High power usage .
Industrial Designer: High power user cell , i uh it should be uh a standard move to to put your remote control in the charger when you're done watching television ,
Marketing: Yes .
Industrial Designer: that's also a a a great advantage because you can't lose it anymore . Because you are obliged to uh put it in the charger and not to uh leave it in a couch uh between some cushions .
Marketing: True . Yeah . Yeah . True .
User Interface: Yeah . Right . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: Yeah , you made a point there .
User Interface: {vocalsound} But then you also have to s have somewhere where you can put a remo recharger near your couch
Project Manager: Yeah , also .
User Interface: because otherwise you have to walk a long way when you twoft want to turn on the T_V_ .
Marketing: Yeah , otherwise all your {disfmarker} yeah . Just a small device {vocalsound} .
User Interface: Yeah . I think everything has it for and {disfmarker} I guess .
Industrial Designer: Yeah it hasn't {disfmarker} It doesn't have to be big .
Marketing: Plug it in , that's it . Yeah , like a {disfmarker} like telephone charger or something .
Industrial Designer: Yeah just just a cable , or a even a a a a a charger where you can mount it on . Something like that ,
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: just u
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Alright .
Project Manager: Okay , well I've
Marketing: It has to be easy to use also , or things . Uh market share , speaker re speech recognition .
Project Manager: Yeah , you have some more
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: points .
Industrial Designer: Functional designs uh for the elderly uh you could make it possible to enlarge the screen ,
Marketing: I think .
Industrial Designer: so make it possible to not uh display uh a button at ten points
Marketing: Also .
Industrial Designer: uh , or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well I think that this should be standard . Large button {disfmarker} large buttons .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but it is uh one of the functions you have to uh specify .
Marketing: Yeah ? Okay .
Industrial Designer: Because we can look at uh uh perhaps uh forty buttons at a screen , but the elderly only look at two buttons .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: {gap} .
Project Manager: And you said something about speech recognition ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Speech recognition ?
Marketing: it says also {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hello .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Twelve Euro
User Interface: twelve fifty , twelve fifty . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: twelve Euro fifty .
Marketing: Twelve . That's an {disfmarker} also ninety one percent sixteen to twenty five , twenty six to thirty five years , seventy six percent , and thirty six to forty five , thirty five percent .
User Interface: So it's pretty big .
Industrial Designer: Well , spread it by a big market .
Marketing: But then I I I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Even bigger than for L_C_D_ . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} W I know let's do a speech . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: let's leave out all the remote controls and just put a {vocalsound} microphone on top of the television to {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Ninety . Twenty five .
User Interface: You can clap or something . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: {gap} channel .
Industrial Designer: Turn volume up .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Hey , that that's an idea . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Now you shouldn't say the wrong thing , I dunno {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: Okay , well
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: that should {disfmarker} it has to be remote control , not {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {gap} twelve .
User Interface: But they want to talk into the remo remote control , or something ,
Industrial Designer: Sure why not why not {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: or ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Is this only would you would you pay more for speech recognition in a remote control . It's the only thing it says .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , mm .
User Interface: Oh , but do we want to implement that , or ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think an L_C_D_ screen {vocalsound} should be suf sufficient .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: But when you look at the percentages {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , it says a lot , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Speech recognition scores even higher , huh ?
Industrial Designer: Perhaps the options should be uh {disfmarker} Why not ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , well ,
Industrial Designer: Why not ?
Project Manager: maybe because of the cost , but uh nobody knows uh how much uh it will cost uh .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Let's hope uh to have some uh d
User Interface: I know {vocalsound}
Marketing: No I think I think it's better to have L_ L_C_D_ screen , because in the area of tw thirty six to forty five , we have about thirty percent of the market share in in our hands , and fifty five of those people want L_C_D_ screen and thirty five want speech recognition . So I think it's better to keep it with L_C_D_ screen .
Project Manager: But would it be useful to imple implement both ?
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: On one remote ?
Marketing: Yeah , if the costs al allow it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , I dunno .
User Interface: I don't know if that can be done with the cost of twelve fifty .
Marketing: Nee .
User Interface: With that uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: If it should be done , if it could be done , I won't matter . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: We should do it . Yeah . Sure .
User Interface: but how would you like to implement that , that you say volume up , and then it goes up ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: or ?
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Uh .
Industrial Designer: Certain systems already exist , I think .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Then you also have to have different languages if we go international . Then uh it's y {vocalsound} it's yours to do a French and Dutch and English
Marketing: {vocalsound} True .
Industrial Designer: True , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . True .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: But that should also be with f should be also with L_C_D_ screen .
Industrial Designer: This should be uh accommodated with some software , uh , uh . Yeah .
Marketing: Because then I think in Chinese is different written , volume is different written than um Swahili or something .
User Interface: Yeah , that's right . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right . Swahili . Swahili .
User Interface: Yeah you can use icons for the
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: a speaker and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Ja , well possible .
Industrial Designer: Indeed .
User Interface: But if that's better than language for the for the remote .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah yeah yeah {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . So we want to uh yeah it's international uh okay .
User Interface: Then it's {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: 'Kay , what else ?
Project Manager: So , no speech recognition ? Or {disfmarker} {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well , if it could be done , we {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Y it should be done . If it could be done , should be done .
Marketing: we have to keep {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , and then we have different languages .
User Interface: Yeah , that should be uh anything matters .
Industrial Designer: That's not so difficult at all ,
Project Manager: Okay , just make a separate remote for each uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: because I already use on several voice operated systems , and they are all possible to uh not all , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , you sh you should to adjust the thing .
Marketing: I think it's difficult . Every language of dialects {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I think it's very differen difficult .
User Interface: And you have to speak the {disfmarker} so that it can understand .
Marketing: Yeah . I think it can't be implemented , but maybe {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} You could use that n as an option , if you have money left , or something . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , 's an option , yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , sure , indeed .
Marketing: Fifty Euro cents .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Let's do speech .
Industrial Designer: For speech recognition .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , so we only do this when we have enough money left .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . Well I've written down an an on or off button , volume selection , channel selection , uh the digits from one to zero , huh . Um {disfmarker} or from zero to nine . Uh a digits button to switch uh between one and two digits , mute button , a separate menu for teletext , a battery indicator . Um we're going to use a docking station and uh probably L_C_D_ and if there's enough money , speech recognition . And uh the possibility to uh enlarge buttons or to have large buttons
User Interface: Mm . Yeah .
Marketing: Mm , yes .
Project Manager: in general .
User Interface: I {vocalsound} With uh teletext if {disfmarker} it wasn't ver very important , it was but {disfmarker}
Marketing: No , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: You also now have colours . I don't know if we should implement that . Yeah ,
Marketing: Curved ?
User Interface: when you press the red button , you go to page one hundred two , and when you press the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah .
User Interface: I don't know if we should implement that ,
Marketing: Um .
User Interface: because it says that teletext not really important ,
Industrial Designer: S Shortcuts . Uh .
User Interface: but yeah , the shortcut , and you can't go to sport .
Marketing: I think we should {disfmarker} we could that {disfmarker} we could also implement a audio settings , screen settings and channel settings , but as sub-menus .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: D Mainly if you turn the uh remote control on , you have to u you have to see from one till zero , channel and volume . And if you want to use teletext screen or audio , then you can press it .
Industrial Designer: Sh Yeah , just just sub-menu . Yeah .
Marketing: It should be available but not
User Interface: 'Cause it should be there .
Industrial Designer: Not directly uh available .
Marketing: not {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay , so not too much teletext support , but in a separate menu , and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: So actually it is there but it's just not r ready there .
Marketing: Yeah , but s
Industrial Designer: Directly available .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So does it confuse uh the user ?
User Interface: You'll have to search for it . {vocalsound}
Marketing: They'd have to be easy to use .
Industrial Designer: Uh . I'll search um .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: If you want to use teletext , you can push the teletext button and then the options uh become available .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah , that's a {disfmarker}
Marketing: The sign of it .
Project Manager: Okay , but no more buttons or functions , or ?
User Interface: I guess not .
Industrial Designer: No .
Marketing: Uh , no . What else can you do with a television ?
User Interface: We've got anon
Project Manager: Aren't we forgetting something very important ?
User Interface: Have got got two examples here , but I don't think there's anything we're missing .
Marketing: Uh play , pause , doesn't n need to be there .
User Interface: Well , we don't have the video orders {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yes , so this is your presentation . We could check the other remote controls with technical functions .
User Interface: Yeah , you could look here all the the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Which ones were yours ?
User Interface: Uh th th th th I don't know , technical functions .
Marketing: Techni
User Interface: {vocalsound} They're a bit small , you can {disfmarker} we should stretch them , because {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ping .
Marketing: Ja ja ja ja ja . Technical functions . Yeah okay .
User Interface: I guess we've got them all .
Marketing: Uh I think I go to have volume , mute but I {disfmarker} Yeah {gap} . Very slow . Yeah , the zoom buttons .
User Interface: And for a T_V_ ? Can you zoom in a T_V_ ?
Marketing: Yeah , b wide screen , high screen , different things you have ,
User Interface: Or that you can put 'em on uh on on wide and {disfmarker}
Marketing: yeah different uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: But that should also be a sub then , a sub uh menu thing .
Industrial Designer: Menu .
Marketing: Yeah it should be available , but then in separate screen settings or something .
User Interface: Yeah , so we should also implement se screen settings .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah , screen settings , audio settings , teletext settings you have .
User Interface: Oh right . Yeah .
Marketing: Channel settings .
User Interface: Yeah , so you can program the {disfmarker}
Marketing: So those four , and of course the main .
User Interface: Yeah , so the first you see the main , and the other ones you can uh go to uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah . Like tap screens or something
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: or , I dunno .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I hope we can do this . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Something {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: There are a lot of options depending uh on what kind of television you got .
Marketing: Yeah , if uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: 'Cause if you don't got a wide screen television you don't need the uh the screen settings
Marketing: No , you don't yu a no you then you don't no ni don't {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: uh for uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: then you don't use it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah and if the television does not support such uh operations
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: We don't have to use that top . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So you leave it alone .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Or it could be possible to have a a standard version of the remote , an expanded version .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . And do we want them in different colours , or {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: And and the buttons , should they have colours ?
Marketing: Colours . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Colours I think the main colour of the remote control is uh the colour of the L_C_D_ screen .
User Interface: Oh but we don't have any buttons . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I Because we don't want a lot a devi yeah a device self s g
Marketing: Yeah , then defines itself . Because uh how many percent ? Eighty percent ?
User Interface: They think it's ugly , right ?
Marketing: Would spend more money if it looks fancy .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so use uh very uh lot of peo {vocalsound}
User Interface: Perhaps you can uh make adjustable fronts , like with the telephones {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: Adjust with phones , yes {vocalsound}
User Interface: You can uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But I don't think that uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay . {vocalsound} Twelve Euro fifty . Well , make it available in different colours , you mean ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Sure .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Red , white , blue , black . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And a see-through uh
Marketing: Rasta colours .
Industrial Designer: Grey .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah sea view , yes , Simpson's versions and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , see through version . Yeah . If you press a button , it turns green .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , well
Industrial Designer: Leave . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: that's the
User Interface: A disco version .
Project Manager: signal for las final five minutes .
User Interface: Five minutes ?
Project Manager: Um so I have uh the things I just read . Um then we have uh separate menus for teletext , screen settings , audio settings , and what else ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Channel settings ?
User Interface: Oh yeah , right .
Project Manager: Channel settings .
User Interface: So you can program the T_V_ .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Perhaps you should you'd throw them on on in one pile . So , options , and then you sub them .
Marketing: Yeah . Could be possible .
User Interface: Otherwise you have all those teletext , perhaps teletext not ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Or like uh you have a menu button , you press {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No , we said teletext also a separate menu .
User Interface: Yeah , but I {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , or otherwise you have a menu button , press menu then you have uh main uh menu search uh all the all the settings .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , but we can work that out later , I guess .
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , no problem . Yep .
Project Manager: So we're having a a general menu with the most used functions , uh teletext , screen settings , audio settings , channel settings , and maybe there are options for the remote itself ? Like uh large icons or small icons
User Interface: I don't know .
Project Manager: and I don't know what else ,
Marketing: Um ,
Project Manager: but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No .
Marketing: I think b because we don't have a lot of buttons on the one screen ,
User Interface: Or do we have any buttons ? On the remote .
Marketing: I think the buttons {disfmarker} Yeah , but but or like you have
User Interface: Which one ?
Marketing: you only have channel button or volume button . Those buttons you can you can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , but on the L_C_D_ ,
User Interface: But that's also in the L_C_D_ ,
Project Manager: huh ?
User Interface: right ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Right , yeah , okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: So we don't have any normal buttons
Marketing: Yeah , th
User Interface: that uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: No , no normal buttons , yeah .
User Interface: No , alright .
Marketing: Maybe only the on and o on and off button .
User Interface: Yet on and off is p is perhaps you kno
Project Manager: But we don't need a special {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh not button {vocalsound}
Marketing: But I don't think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we don't need a special options menu for the remote itself .
User Interface: No , no .
Marketing: Mm , no .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Oh well , you should be able to set which T_V_ you have . If you have {disfmarker} if you have uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah sure , of course you need uh a settings button , uh or a settings option for the remote control .
User Interface: Yeah . But isn't idea to use uh uh what you said , uh normal on and off button for the T_V_ , that you don't have to use a {disfmarker}
Marketing: No no no , because we we discussed that you could charge it , otherwise is {disfmarker} it it jumps to stand-by mode automatically .
User Interface: Yeah but but not for the remote but for the T_V_ , that you use {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , but a T_V_ of course , th that's the {disfmarker} I think that's a best thing is that to implement that one in the menu with the volume and channel .
User Interface: But a not as normal button , in the L_C_D_ ,
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: Well maybe there should be a separate button apart from the L_C_D_ ,
User Interface: yeah .
Project Manager: because you can't turn it on when the L_C_D_ is off . So how do you turn the thing on ? There has to be a on button on the remote ,
User Interface: No you just tap I think .
Project Manager: huh ?
Industrial Designer: Just tap it .
Marketing: Yeah , you tap .
Project Manager: Tap the thing . Okay .
Marketing: Touch screen , yeah then it's turn {disfmarker} turn off , turn on .
Project Manager: And then the television is on also , or just the remote ?
Marketing: No , just the remote .
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Marketing: A television don't have to be on , that one you can {vocalsound} press on ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it should be in standby mode , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: yeah stand-by , then press on remote , press on and then T_V_ should be available . Or not .
User Interface: Yeah a yeah . I don't know whether it's handy to have a n a normal on button , a r just uh rubber uh for for T_V_ ,
Marketing: Separate .
User Interface: so you can turn it on and then you can choose the channel . Otherwise you {disfmarker} I don't know whether or not that's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: A A A normal button on the remote control ,
User Interface: Yeah , yeah . To turn it on .
Industrial Designer: or norm ?
User Interface: Of or you should put it in the L_C_D_ screen .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , because uh when you touch the L_C_D_ screen when it is in standby mode , it should pop on .
User Interface: Yeah , I have ,
Project Manager: Okay , well {disfmarker}
User Interface: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Wh uh why would it be a a need to have a normal button ?
User Interface: Well I I guess if you use the L_C_D_ screen , you first have to search where is the on button , then you uh you you then turn it , and then the T_V_ goes on . But if you have a normal on button on the on the remote , then you do the on , and then you search the channel which you want .
Marketing: Yeah , but I think the re the remote control , if you press tap the screen , it always should jump to the screen which has the volume button , channel button , and of course of also the on and off button .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Oh right .
Industrial Designer: I think it looks a lot more fancy if you use uh if you don't have any buttons on the s on on remote control .
User Interface: Yeah , I think so too . Otherwise y wet e k Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So actually we're going to create a a button-less uh remote . No buttons at all .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , well that's might be a unique selling point , huh for a remote .
User Interface: {vocalsound} If we can afford it . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay , well I guess we have to
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh , okay {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , if we can afford it . Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: postpone further discussion to uh our next meeting , because we're running out of time . Um for now , we're having a lunch break ,
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} and then there will be uh half an hour for the uh next share of individual work . I will uh write uh minutes , if I can create them out of this . And uh put them in the the project documents uh folder .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: And here are the individual actions for the for the other roles . And of course specific instructions will be sent to you again by your uh personal coach .
User Interface: Alright .
Project Manager: Luckily as we are . Okay , well
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: thank you very much , for now ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and uh have a nice lunch , huh ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Lunch . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Food . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Should we put this back in our rooms , or uh ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , think so .
User Interface: Yeah . | |
doc_128 | Grad E: OK , we 're on .
Professor B: OK .
Grad E: So , I mean , everyone who 's on the wireless check that they 're on .
PhD F: C we {disfmarker}
Grad G: Alright .
Postdoc C: I see . Yeah .
PhD F: Yeah .
Grad E: OK , our agenda was quite short .
Professor B: Oh , could you {pause} close the door , maybe ? Yeah .
Grad E: Sure . Two items , which was , uh , digits and possibly stuff on {disfmarker} on , uh , forced alignment , which Jane said that Liz and Andreas had in information on ,
Professor B:
Grad E: but they didn't ,
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I guess the only other thing , uh , for which I {disfmarker}
Grad E: so .
PhD F: We should do that second , because Liz might join us in time for that .
Grad E: OK .
Professor B: Um . OK , so there 's digits , alignments , and , um , I guess the other thing , {vocalsound} which I came unprepared for , uh , {vocalsound} is , uh , to dis s s see if there 's anything anybody wants to discuss about the Saturday meeting .
Grad E: Right .
Professor B: So . Any {disfmarker} I mean , maybe not .
Grad E: Digits and alignments . But {disfmarker}
Professor B: Uh .
PhD F: Talk about aligning people 's schedules .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: Yeah .
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yeah . I mean {disfmarker} Right . Yeah , I mean , it was {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah , it 's forced alignment of people 's schedules .
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD D: Forced align .
PhD F: If we 're very {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor B: With {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} whatever it was , a month and a half or something ahead of time , the only time we could find in common {disfmarker} roughly in common , was on a Saturday .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: Ugh .
Grad E: Yep .
PhD F: It 's pretty sad .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: Yeah .
Postdoc C: Have {disfmarker} Have we thought about having a conference call to include him in more of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} in more of the meeting ? I {disfmarker} I mean , I don't know , if we had the {disfmarker} if we had the telephone on the table {disfmarker}
Professor B: No . But , h I mean , he probably has to go do something .
PhD F: No , actually I {disfmarker} I have to {disfmarker} I have to shuttle {pause} kids from various places to various other places .
Professor B: Right ?
Postdoc C: I see . OK .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: So . And I don't have {disfmarker} and I don't , um , have a cell phone
PhD D: A cell phone ?
PhD F: so I can't be having a conference call while driving .
Professor B: R r right .
Postdoc C: No . {comment} It 's not good .
Professor B: So we have to {disfmarker} we {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: That 's not good .
PhD F: Plus , it would make for interesting noise {disfmarker} background noise .
Professor B:
Grad E: Yep .
PhD F: Uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: So we have to equip him with a {disfmarker} with a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} with a head - mounted , uh , cell phone
Grad E: Ye - we and we 'd have to force you to read lots and lots of digits ,
Professor B: and {disfmarker}
Grad E: so it could get real {disfmarker} {vocalsound} real car noise .
PhD F: Oh , yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD F: Oh , yeah .
Grad G: Take advantage .
PhD D: And with the kids in the background .
PhD F: I 'll let {disfmarker} I 'd let {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD F: I let , uh , my five - year - old have a try at the digits , eh .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: So , anyway , I can talk about digits . Um , did everyone get the results or shall I go over them again ? I mean that it was basically {disfmarker} the only thing that was even slightly surprising was that the lapel did so well . Um , and in retrospect that 's not as surprising as maybe i it shouldn't have been as surprising as I {disfmarker} as {disfmarker} as I felt it was . The lapel mike is a very high - quality microphone . And as Morgan pointed out , that there are actually some advantages to it in terms of breath noises and clothes rustling {pause} if no one else is talking .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD F: Exactly .
Grad E: Um , so , uh {disfmarker}
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Well , it 's {disfmarker} Yeah , sort of the bre the breath noises and the mouth clicks and so forth like that , the lapel 's gonna be better on .
Grad G: It 's g it {disfmarker}
PhD D: Or the cross - talk . Yeah .
Professor B: The lapel is typically worse on the {disfmarker} on clothes rustling , but if no one 's rustling their clothes ,
Grad E: Right . I mean , a lot of people are just sort of leaning over and reading the digits ,
Professor B: it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}
Grad E: so it 's {disfmarker} it 's a very different task than sort of the natural .
PhD D: Yeah . You don't move much during reading digits , I think .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: So .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: Right .
Grad G: Probably the fact that it picks up other people 's speakers {disfmarker} other people 's talking is an indication of that it {disfmarker} the fact it is a good microphone .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: Right . So in the digits , in most {disfmarker} most cases , there weren't other people talking .
Grad E: Right . Right .
Grad G: So .
Professor B: So .
PhD F: D do the lapel mikes have any directionality to them ?
Professor B: There typically don't , no .
PhD F: Because I {disfmarker} I suppose you could make some that have sort of {disfmarker} that you have to orient towards your mouth ,
Grad E: They have a little bit ,
PhD F: and then it would {disfmarker}
Grad E: but they 're not noise - cancelling . So , uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: They 're {disfmarker} they 're intended to be omni - directional .
Grad E: Right .
Professor B: And th it 's {disfmarker} and because you don't know how people are gonna put them on , you know .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Right . So , also , Andreas , on that one the {disfmarker} the back part of it should be right against your head . And that will he keep it from flopping aro up and down as much .
PhD F: It is against my head .
Grad E: OK .
Professor B: Yeah . Um . Yeah , we actually talked about this in the , uh , front - end meeting this morning , too . Much the same thing ,
Grad E: Uh - huh .
Professor B: and {disfmarker} and it was {disfmarker} uh , I mean , there the point of interest to the group was primarily that , um , {vocalsound} the , uh {disfmarker} the system that we had that was based on H T K , that 's used by , you know , {pause} all the participants in Aurora , {vocalsound} was so much worse {vocalsound} than the {disfmarker} than the S R
Grad E: Everybody .
Professor B: And the interesting thing is that even though , {vocalsound} yes , it 's a digits task and that 's a relatively small number of words and there 's a bunch of digits that you train on , {vocalsound} it 's just not as good as having a {disfmarker} a l very large amount of data and training up a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a nice good big {vocalsound} HMM . Um , also you had the adaptation in the SRI system , which we didn't have in this . Um . So . Um .
PhD F: And we know {disfmarker} Di - did I send you some results without adaptation ?
Grad E: No .
Professor B: I s I think Stephane , uh , had seen them .
Grad E: Or if you did , I didn't include them , cuz it was {disfmarker}
Professor B: So {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah , I think I did , actually . So there was a significant loss from not doing the adaptation .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: Um . A {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a couple percent or some I mean {disfmarker} Well , I don't know it {disfmarker} Overall {disfmarker} Uh , I {disfmarker} I don't remember , but there was {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} there was a significant , um , loss or win {comment} from adaptation {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} with adaptation . And , um , that was the phone - loop adaptation . And then there was a very small {disfmarker} like point one percent on the natives {disfmarker} uh , win from doing , um , you know , adaptation to {pause} the recognition hypotheses . And {pause} I tried both means adaptation and means and variances , and the variances added another {disfmarker} or subtracted another point one percent . So , {vocalsound} it 's , um {disfmarker} that 's the number there . Point six , I believe , is what you get with both , uh , means and variance adaptation .
Grad E: Right .
Professor B: But I think one thing is that , uh , I would presume {disfmarker} Hav - Have you ever t {vocalsound} Have you ever tried this exact same recognizer out on the actual TI - digits test set ?
PhD F: This exact same recognizer ? No .
Professor B: It might be interesting to do that . Cuz my {disfmarker} my {disfmarker} cuz my sense , um {disfmarker}
PhD F: But {disfmarker} but , I have {disfmarker} I mean , people {disfmarker} people at SRI are actually working on digits .
Grad E: I bet it would do even slightly better .
PhD F: I could {disfmarker} and they are using a system that 's , um {disfmarker} you know , h is actually trained on digits , um , but h h otherwise uses the same , you know , decoder , the same , uh , training methods , and so forth ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: and I could ask them what they get {pause} on TI - digits .
Professor B: Yeah , bu although I 'd be {disfmarker} I think it 'd be interesting to just take this exact actual system so that these numbers were comparable
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and try it out on TI - digits .
PhD F: Well , Adam knows how to run it ,
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: Yeah . No problem .
PhD F: so you just make a f
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah . Cuz our sense from the other {disfmarker} from the Aurora , uh , task is that {disfmarker}
Grad E: And try it with TI - digits ?
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I mean , cuz we were getting sub one percent {vocalsound} numbers on TI - digits also with the tandem thing .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So , {vocalsound} one {disfmarker} so there were a number of things we noted from this .
PhD F: Mmm .
Professor B: One is , yeah , the SRI system is a lot better than the HTK {disfmarker}
PhD F: Hmm .
Professor B: this , you know , very limited training HTK system .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Uh , but the other is that , um , the digits {vocalsound} recorded here in this room with these close mikes , i uh , are actually a lot harder than the {pause} studio - recording TI - digits . I think , you know , one reason for that , uh , might be that there 's still {disfmarker} even though it 's close - talking , there still is some noise and some room acoustics .
PhD F: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And another might be that , uh , I 'd {disfmarker} I would presume that in the studio , uh , uh , situation recording read speech that if somebody did something a little funny or n pronounced something a little funny or made a little {disfmarker} that they didn't include it ,
Grad E: They didn't include it .
Professor B: they made them do it again .
Grad E: Whereas , I took out {pause} the ones that I noticed that were blatant {disfmarker} that were correctable .
Professor B: Mmm . Yeah .
Grad E: So that , if someone just read the wrong digit , I corrected it .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: And then there was another one where Jose couldn't tell whether {disfmarker} I couldn't tell whether he was saying zero or six . And I asked him and he couldn't tell either .
Grad I: Hmm .
Grad E: So I just cut it out .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: You know , so I just e edited out the first , i uh , word of the utterance . Um , so there 's a little bit of correction but it 's definitely not as clean as TI - digits . So my expectations is TI - digits would , especially {disfmarker} I think TI - digits is all {pause} American English .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Right ? So it would probably do even a little better still on the SRI system , but we could give it a try .
PhD F: Well . But {pause} remember , we 're using a telephone bandwidth front - end here , uh , on this , uh {disfmarker} on this SRI system , so , {vocalsound} um , I was {disfmarker} I thought that maybe that 's actually a good thing because it {disfmarker} it gets rid of some of the {disfmarker} uh , the noises , um , you know , in the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} below and above the {disfmarker} um , the , you know , speech bandwidth
Professor B: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD F: and , um , I suspect that to get sort of the last bit out of these higher - quality recordings you would have to in fact , uh , use models that , uh , were trained on wider - band data . And of course we can't do that or {disfmarker}
Grad E: Wha - what 's TI - digits ? I thought t
Professor B: It 's wide - band , yeah . It 's {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in fact , we looked it up
Grad E: It is wide - band . OK .
Professor B: and it was actually twenty kilohertz sampling .
Grad E: Oh , that 's right . I {disfmarker} I did look that up .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: I couldn't remember whether that was TI - digits or one of the other digit tasks .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: Right . But {disfmarker} but , I would {disfmarker} Yeah . It 's {disfmarker} it 's easy enough to try , just run it on {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: See w
Grad E: So , Morgan , you 're getting a little breath noise .
PhD F: Now , eh , does {disfmarker}
Grad E: You might wanna move the mike down a little bit .
PhD F: one {disfmarker} one issue {disfmarker} one issue with {disfmarker} with that is that {vocalsound} um , the system has this , uh , notion of a speaker to {disfmarker} which is used in adaptation , variance norm uh , you know , both in , uh , mean and variance normalization and also in the VTL {pause} estimation .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: So {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah , I noticed the script that extracted it .
PhD F: Do y ? Is {disfmarker} ? So does {disfmarker} so th so does {disfmarker} does , um , {vocalsound} the TI - digits database have speakers that are known ?
Grad E: Yep . Yep .
PhD F: And is there {disfmarker} is there enough data or a comparable {disfmarker} comparable amount of data to {disfmarker} to what we have in our recordings here ?
Grad E: That I don't know . I don't know . I don't know how many speakers there are ,
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: and {disfmarker} and how many speakers per utterance .
PhD F: OK .
Professor B: Well , the other thing would be to do it without the adaptation and compare to these numbers without the adaptation . That would {disfmarker}
PhD F: Right . Uh , but I 'm not so much worried about the adaptation , actually , than {disfmarker} than the , um , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} the , uh , VTL estimation .
Grad E: Right .
PhD F: If you have only one utterance per speaker you might actually screw up on estimating the {disfmarker} the warping , uh , factor . So , um {disfmarker}
Grad E: I strongly suspect that they have more speakers than we do . So , uh {disfmarker}
PhD F: Right . But it 's not the amount of speakers , it 's the num it 's the amount of data per speaker .
Grad E: Right . So we {disfmarker} we could probably do an extraction that was roughly equivalent .
PhD F: Right . Right .
Grad E: Um .
PhD F: So {disfmarker}
Grad E: So , although I {disfmarker} I sort of know how to run it , there are a little {disfmarker} a f few details here and there that I 'll have to {pause} dig out .
PhD F: OK . The key {disfmarker} So th the system actually extracts the speaker ID from the waveform names .
Grad E: Right . I saw that .
PhD F: And there 's a {disfmarker} there 's a script {disfmarker} and that is actually all in one script . So there 's this one script that parses waveform names and extracts things like the , um , speaker , uh , ID or something that can stand in as a speaker ID . So , we might have to modify that script to recognize the , um , speakers , {vocalsound} um , in the {disfmarker} in the , uh , um , {vocalsound} TI - digits {pause} database .
Grad E: Right . Right . And that , uh {disfmarker}
PhD F: Or you can fake {disfmarker} you can fake {pause} names for these waveforms that resemble the names that we use here for the {disfmarker} for the meetings .
Grad E: Right .
PhD F: That would be the , sort of {disfmarker} probably the safest way to do {disfmarker}
Grad E: I might have to do that anyway to {disfmarker} to do {disfmarker} because we may have to do an extract to get the {pause} amount of data per speaker about right .
PhD F: Uh - huh .
Grad E: The other thing is , isn't TI - digits isolated digits ?
PhD F: Right .
Grad E: Or is that another one ? I 'm {disfmarker} I looked through a bunch of the digits t corp corpora , and now they 're all blurring .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Cuz one of them was literally people reading a single digit . And then others were connected digits .
Professor B: Yeah . Most of TI - digits is connected digits , I think .
Grad E: OK .
Professor B: The {disfmarker} I mean , we had a Bellcore corpus that we were using . It was {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that 's {disfmarker} that was isolated digits .
Grad E: Maybe it 's the Bell Gram . Bell Digits . Alright .
Professor B: Um .
PhD F: By the way , I think we can improve these numbers if we care to compr improve them {vocalsound} by , um , {vocalsound} not starting with the Switchboard models but by taking the Switchboard models and doing supervised adaptation on a small amount of digit data collected in this setting .
Grad E: Yep .
PhD F: Because that would adapt your models to the room acoustics and f for the far - field microphones , you know , to the noise . And that should really improve things , um , further . And then you use those adapted models , which are not speaker adapted but sort of acous you know , channel adapted {disfmarker}
Grad E: Channel adapted .
PhD F: use that as the starting models for your speaker adaptation .
Professor B: Yeah . {vocalsound} But the thing is , uh {disfmarker} I mean , w when you {disfmarker} it depends whether you 're ju were just using this as a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a starter task for {disfmarker} you know , to get things going for conversational or if we 're really interested i in connected digits . And I {disfmarker} I think the answer is both . And for {disfmarker} for connected digits over the telephone you don't actually want to put a whole lot of effort into adaptation
PhD F: Well , I don't know .
Professor B: because {vocalsound} somebody {pause} gets on the phone and says a number and then you just want it . You don't {disfmarker} don't , uh {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: This is {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} that one 's better .
PhD F: Right .
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Um , but , you know , I {disfmarker} uh , my impression was that you were actually interested in the far - field microphone , uh , problem , I mean . So , you want to {disfmarker} you want to {disfmarker} That 's the obvious thing to try .
Postdoc C: Oh . Oh .
Professor B: Right .
PhD F: Right ? Then , eh {disfmarker} because you {disfmarker} you don't have any {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Yeah .
PhD F: That 's where the most m acoustic mismatch is between the currently used models and the {disfmarker} the r the set up here .
Professor B: Right .
PhD F: So .
Professor B: Yeah . So that 'd be anoth another interesting data point .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I mean , I {disfmarker} I guess I 'm saying I don't know if we 'd want to do that as the {disfmarker} as {disfmarker}
PhD D: Other way .
Grad E: Other way . Liz {disfmarker}
PhD A: Now you 're all watching me .
Grad E: It f it clips over your ears .
PhD A: Alright . This way .
Grad E: There you go .
Postdoc C: If you have a strong fe if you have a strong preference , you could use this .
PhD A: You 're all watching . This is terrible .
Postdoc C: It 's just we {disfmarker} we think it has some spikes . So , uh , we {disfmarker} we didn't use that one .
PhD A: I 'll get it .
Postdoc C: But you could if you want .
Professor B: Yeah . At any rate , I don't know if w
Postdoc C: I don't know . And Andre - Andreas , your {disfmarker} your microphone 's a little bit low .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: It is ?
Professor B: I don't know if we wanna use that as the {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Yeah .
Grad E: Uh , it pivots .
PhD F: Uh .
Postdoc C: So if you see the picture
Grad E: It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} like this .
PhD F: I I {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: and then you have to scr
PhD F: I {disfmarker} I already adjusted this a number of times .
Grad E: Eh .
PhD F: I {disfmarker} I
Grad E: Yeah , I think these mikes are not working as well as I would like .
PhD F: can't quite seem to {disfmarker} Yeah , I think this contraption around your head is not {pause} working so well .
Professor B: Too many adju too many adjustments . Yeah . Anyway , what I was saying is that I {disfmarker} I think I probably wouldn't want to see that as sort of like the norm , that we compared all things to .
Postdoc C: That looks good . Yeah .
Professor B: To , uh , the {disfmarker} to have {disfmarker} have all this ad all this , uh , adaptation . But I think it 's an important data point , if you 're {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD F: Right .
Professor B: Um . The other thing that {disfmarker} that , uh {disfmarker} of course , what Barry was looking at was {disfmarker} was just that , the near versus far . And , yeah , the adaptation would get {vocalsound} th some of that .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But , I think even {disfmarker} even if there was , uh , only a factor of two or something , like I was saying in the email , I think that 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that 's a big factor . So {disfmarker}
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: N
Grad E: Liz , you could also just use the other mike if you 're having problems with that one .
Postdoc C: Well .
PhD A: OK .
Postdoc C: Yeah . This would be OK . We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we think that this has spikes on it ,
PhD A: It 's this thing 's {disfmarker} This is too big for my head .
Postdoc C: so it 's not as good acoustically ,
PhD F: Yeah , basically your ears are too big .
Postdoc C: but {disfmarker}
PhD F: I mean , mine are too . E th everybody 's ears are too big for these things .
PhD A: No , my {disfmarker} my {disfmarker} But this is too big for my head . So , I mean , {comment} {comment} it doesn't {disfmarker} you know , it 's sit
PhD F: Uh {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Well , if you 'd rather have this one then it 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: OK .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: Oh , well .
Professor B: It 's {pause} great .
Grad E: So the {disfmarker} To get that , uh , pivoted this way , it pivots like this .
PhD A: No this way . Yeah .
Grad E: Yeah . There you go .
Postdoc C: And there 's a screw that you can tighten .
Grad E: And then it {disfmarker}
PhD A: Right .
Grad E: Right .
PhD A: I already {pause} tried to get it close .
Postdoc C: Good .
Grad E: So if it doesn't bounce around too much , that 's actually good placement .
PhD A: OK .
Postdoc C: That looks good .
Grad E: But it looks like it 's gonna bounce a lot .
Professor B: So , where were we ? Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah .
Postdoc C: Yeah .
Grad E: Digits . Adaptation .
Professor B: Uh , adaptation , non - adaptation , um , factor of two , um {disfmarker} Oh , yeah . I know what I was go w
PhD F: What k u By the way , wh what factor of two did you {disfmarker} ?
Professor B: Oh , no , no .
PhD F: I mean {disfmarker}
Professor B: It 's tha that {disfmarker} that we were saying , you know , well is {disfmarker} how much worse is far than near , you know .
PhD F: Oh , th OK .
Professor B: And I mean it depends on which one you 're looking at ,
PhD F: That factor of two .
Professor B: but for the everybody , it 's {vocalsound} little under a factor or two .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yeah . I {disfmarker} I know what I was thinking was that maybe , uh , i i we could actually t t try at least looking at , uh , some of the {disfmarker} the large vocabulary speech from a far microphone , at least from the good one .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I mean , before I thought we 'd get , you know , a hundred and fifty percent error or something , but if {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if , uh {disfmarker} if we 're getting thirty - five , forty percent or something , {vocalsound} u um {disfmarker}
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Actually if you run , though , on a close - talking mike over the whole meeting , during all those silences , you get , like , four hundred percent word error .
Professor B: Mm - hmm . Right . I understand . But doing the same kind of limited thing {disfmarker}
PhD A: Or {disfmarker} or some high number .
Professor B: Yeah , sure . Get all these insertions . But I 'm saying if you do the same kind of limited thing {vocalsound} as people have done in Switchboard evaluations or as {disfmarker} a
PhD A: Yeah . Where you know who the speaker is and there 's no overlap ? And you do just the far - field for those regions ?
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah . The same sort of numbers that we got those graphs from . Right ?
Grad E: Could we do exactly the same thing that we 're doing now , but do it with a far - field mike ?
Professor B: Yeah , do it with one of {disfmarker} on
Grad E: Cuz we extract the times from the near - field mike , but you use the acoustics from the far - field mike .
PhD A: Right . I understand that . I just meant that {disfmarker} so you have {pause} three choices . There 's , um {disfmarker} You can use times where that person is talking only from the transcripts but the segmentations were {disfmarker} were synchronized . Or you can do a forced alignment on the close - talking to determine that , the you know , within this segment , these really were the times that this person was talking and elsewhere in the segment other people are overlapping and just front - end those pieces . Or you can run it on the whole data , which is {disfmarker} which is , you know , a {disfmarker}
Professor B: But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but how did we get the {disfmarker} how did we determine the links , uh , that we 're testing on in the stuff we reported ?
PhD A: In the H L T paper we took {pause} segments that are channel {disfmarker} time - aligned , which is now h being changed in the transcription process , which is good , and we took cases where the transcribers said there was only one person talking here , because no one else had time {disfmarker} any words in that segment and called that " non - overlap " .
Professor B: And tha And that 's what we were getting those numbers from .
PhD A: Yes . Tho - good {disfmarker} the good numbers .
Professor B: Right .
PhD A: The bad numbers were from {pause} the segments where there was overlap .
Professor B: Well , we could start with the good ones .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: But anyway {disfmarker} so I think that we should try it once with {vocalsound} the same conditions that were used to create those , and in those same segments just use one of the P Z
PhD A: Right . So we {disfmarker} we can do that . Yeah .
Professor B: And then , you know , I mean , the thing is if we were getting , uh {disfmarker} what , thirty - five , forty percent , something like that on {disfmarker} on that particular set , uh , does it go to seventy or eighty ?
PhD A: Right .
Professor B: Or , does it use up so much memory we can't decode it ?
PhD A: It might also depend on which speaker th it is and how close they are to the PZM ?
Professor B: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD A: I don't know how different they are from each other .
PhD F: You want to probably choose the PZM channel that is closest to the speaker .
PhD A: To be best {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad E: For this particular digit ones , I just picked that one .
PhD A: f
Professor B: Well {disfmarker}
PhD A: OK . So we would then use that one , too ,
Grad E: So {disfmarker}
PhD F: Oh , OK .
Professor B: This is kind of central .
PhD A: or {disfmarker} ?
Professor B: You know , it 's {disfmarker} so i but I would {disfmarker} I 'd pick that one . It 'll be less good for some people than for other , but I {disfmarker} I 'd like to see it on the same {disfmarker} exact same data set that {disfmarker} that we did the other thing on .
Grad E: Actually {disfmarker} I sh actually should 've picked a different one ,
Professor B: Right ?
Grad E: because {pause} that could be why the PDA is worse . Because it 's further away from most of the people reading digits .
PhD D: It 's further away . Yeah . Yeah .
Professor B: That 's probably one of the reasons .
Postdoc C: Hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Well , yeah . You could look at , I guess , that PZM or something .
Grad E: Yep .
Professor B: But the other is , it 's very , uh {disfmarker} I mean , even though there 's {disfmarker} I 'm sure the f f the {disfmarker} the SRI , uh , front - end has some kind of pre - emphasis , it 's {disfmarker} it 's , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} still , th it 's picking up lots of low - frequency energy .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So , even discriminating against it , I 'm sure some of it 's getting through . Um . But , yeah , you 're right . Prob - a part of it is just the distance .
PhD A: And aren't these pretty bad microphones ?
Grad E: Yep .
PhD A: I mean {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well , they 're bad . But , I mean , if you listen to it , it sounds OK . You know ? u Yeah .
Grad E: Yeah . When you listen to it , uh , the PZM and the PDA {disfmarker} Yeah , th the PDA has higher sound floor but not by a lot . It 's really pretty {disfmarker} uh , pretty much the same .
PhD A: I just remember you saying you got them to be cheap on purpose . Cheap in terms of their quality . So .
Professor B: Well , they 're {pause} twenty - five cents or so .
Grad E: Th - we wanted them to be {disfmarker} to be typical of what would be in a PDA .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: So they are {disfmarker} they 're not the PZM three hundred dollar type . They 're the twenty - five cent ,
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: buy them in packs of thousand type .
PhD A: I see .
Professor B: But , I mean , the thing is people use those little mikes for everything because they 're really not bad .
Grad E: Everything .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I mean , if you 're not {vocalsound} doing something ridiculous like feeding it to a speech recognizer , they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they {disfmarker} you know , you can hear the sou hear the sounds just fine .
PhD A: Right .
Professor B: You know , it 's {disfmarker} They {disfmarker} I mean , i it 's more or less the same principles as these other mikes are built under , it 's just that {pause} there 's less quality control . They just , you know , churn them out and don't check them . Um . So . So that was {disfmarker} Yeah . So that was i interesting result . So like I said , the front - end guys are very much interested in {disfmarker} in this is as {disfmarker} as well and
PhD F: So {disfmarker} so , but where is this now ? I mean , what 's {disfmarker} where do we go from here ?
Grad E: Yeah . That was gonna be my question .
PhD F: I mean , we {disfmarker} so we have a {disfmarker} we have a {disfmarker} a system that works pretty well but it 's not , you know , the system that people here are used to using {disfmarker} to working with .
Professor B: Well , I think what we wanna do is we want to {disfmarker} eh ,
PhD F: So what {disfmarker} what do we do now ?
Professor B: and we 've talked about this in other {pause} contexts {disfmarker} we want to {vocalsound} have the ability to feed it different features .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And then , um , {vocalsound} from the point of view of the front - end research , it would be s uh , substituting for HTK .
PhD F: OK . OK .
Professor B: I think that 's the key thing . And then if we can feed it different features , then we can try all the different things that we 're trying there .
PhD F: OK . Alright .
Professor B: And then , um , uh , also Dave is {disfmarker} is thinking about using the data in different ways , uh , to {vocalsound} um , uh , explicitly work on reverberation
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: starting with some techniques that some other people have {pause} found somewhat useful , and {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD F: OK . So {disfmarker} so the key {pause} thing that 's missing here is basically the ability to feed , you know , other features {vocalsound} i into the recognizer
Professor B: Right .
PhD F: and also then to train the system .
Professor B: Right .
PhD F: OK . And , uh , es I don't know when Chuck will be back but that 's exactly what he {disfmarker} he 's gonna {disfmarker}
Professor B: H h He 's {disfmarker} he 's sort of back , but he drove for fourteen hours an and wasn't gonna make it in today .
PhD F: Oh , OK . So , I think that 's one of the things that he said he would be working on . Um .
Grad E: Yeah .
PhD F: Just sort of t to make sure that {pause} we can do that
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: and {disfmarker} Um .
Professor B: Right .
PhD F: It 's {disfmarker} uh , I mean , the {disfmarker} the front - end is f i tha that 's in the SRI recognizer is very nice in that it does a lot of things on the fly but it unfortunately {pause} is not {pause} designed and , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} like the , uh , ICSI system is , where you can feed it from a pipeline of {disfmarker} of the command . So , the {disfmarker} what that means probably for the foreseeable future is that you have to , uh , dump out , um {disfmarker} you know , if you want to use some new features , you have to dump them into individual files and {pause} give those files to the recognizer .
Grad E: We do {disfmarker} we tend to do that anyway .
PhD F: OK .
Grad E: Oh . So , although you {disfmarker} you can pipe it as well , we tend to do it that way because that way you can concentrate on one block and not keep re - doing it over and over .
PhD F: Oh , OK .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: Alright .
Professor B: Yeah . So I 've {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}
Grad E: So tha that 's exactly what the P - file {pause} is for .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: Yeah , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the cumbersome thing is {disfmarker} is , um {disfmarker} is that you actually have to dump out little {disfmarker} little files .
PhD A: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD F: So for each segment that you want to recognize {vocalsound} you have to {pause} dump out {pause} a separate file .
Grad E: Uh - huh .
PhD F: Just like i th like th as if there were these waveform segments , but instead you have sort of feature file segments . But , you know {disfmarker} So .
Professor B: Cool . OK . So the s the {disfmarker} the next thing we had on the agenda was something about alignments ?
PhD A: Oh . Yes , we have {disfmarker} I don't know , did you wanna talk about it , or {disfmarker} ? I can give a {disfmarker} I was just telling this to Jane and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} W we {disfmarker} we were able to get some definite improvement on the forced alignments by looking at them first and then realizing the kinds of errors {pause} that were occurring and um , some of the errors occurring very frequently are just things like the first word being moved to as early as possible in the recognition , which is a um , I think was both a {disfmarker} a pruning {pause} problem and possibly a problem with needing constraints on word locations . And so we tried both of these st things . We tried saying {disfmarker} I don't know , I got this {vocalsound} whacky idea that {disfmarker} just from looking at the data , that when people talk {pause} their words are usually chunked together . It 's not that they say one word and then there 's a bunch of words together . They 're {comment} might say one word and then another word far away if they were doing just backchannels ? But in general , if there 's , like , five or six words and one word 's far away from it , that 's probably wrong on average . So , um {disfmarker} And then also , ca the pruning , of course , was too {disfmarker} too severe .
PhD F: So that 's actually interesting . The pruning was the same value that we used for recognition . And we had lowered that {disfmarker} we had used tighter pruning after Liz ran some experiments showing that , you know , it runs slower and there 's no real difference in {disfmarker}
PhD A: Actually it was better with {disfmarker} slightly better or about th
Grad E: No gain .
PhD A: it was the same with tighter pruning .
PhD F: Right . So for free recognition , this {disfmarker} the lower pruning value is better .
PhD A: It 's probably cuz the recognition 's just bad en at a point where it 's bad enough that {disfmarker} that you don't lose anything .
PhD F: You {disfmarker} Correct . Right . Um , but it turned out for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} to get accurate alignments it was really important to open up the pruning significantly .
PhD A: Right .
Professor B: Hmm .
PhD F: Um {pause} because otherwise it would sort of do greedy alignment , um , in regions where there was no real speech yet from the foreground speaker .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Um , {vocalsound} so that was one big factor that helped improve things and then the other thing was that , you know , as Liz said the {disfmarker} we f enforce the fact that , uh , the foreground speech has to be continuous . It cannot be {disfmarker} you cannot have a background speech hypothesis in the middle of the foreground speech . You can only have background speech at the beginning and the end .
PhD A: Yeah . I mean , yeah , it isn't always true , and I think what we really want is some clever way to do this , where , um , you know , from the data or from maybe some hand - corrected alignments from transcribers that things like words that do occur just by themselves {pause} a alone , like backchannels or something that we did allow to have background speech around it {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: those would be able to do that ,
Postdoc C: Sorry .
PhD A: but the rest would be constrained . So , I think we have a version that 's pretty good for the native speakers . I don't know yet about the non - native speakers . And , um , we basically also made noise models for the different {disfmarker} sort of grouped some of the {pause} mouth noises together . Um , so , and then there 's a background speech model . And we also {disfmarker} There was some neat {disfmarker} or , interesting cases , like there 's one meeting where , {vocalsound} um , Jose 's giving a presentation and he 's talking about , um , the word " mixed {pause} signal " and someone didn't understand , uh , that you were saying " mixed " {disfmarker} I think , Morgan . And so your speech - ch was s saying something about mixed signal .
PhD H: Yeah , yeah .
PhD A: And the next turn was a lot of people saying " mixed " , like " he means mixed signal " or " I think it 's mixed " . And the word " mixed " in this segment occurs , like , a bunch of times .
PhD H: Sh
PhD A: And Chuck 's on the lapel here , and he also says " mixed " but it 's at the last one , and of course the aligner th aligns it everywhere else to everybody else 's " mixed " ,
PhD H: Yeah .
PhD A: cuz there 's no adaptation yet . So there 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think there 's some issues about {disfmarker} u We probably want to adapt at least the foreground speaker . But , I guess Andreas tried adapting both the foreground and a background generic speaker , and that 's actually a little bit of a f funky model . Like , it gives you some weird alignments , just because often the background speakers match better to the foreground than the foreground speaker .
PhD F: Oh {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: So there 's some things there ,
PhD H: Oh .
PhD A: especially when you get lots of the same words , uh , occurring in the {disfmarker}
PhD F: Well , the {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think you can do better by {vocalsound} uh , cloning {disfmarker} so we have a reject phone . And you {disfmarker} and what we wanted to try with {disfmarker} you know , once we have this paper written and have a little more time , {vocalsound} uh , t cloning that reject model and then one copy of it would be adapted to the foreground speaker to capture the rejects in the foreground , like fragments and stuff , and the other copy would be adapted to the background speaker .
PhD A: Right . I mean , in general we actually {disfmarker}
PhD F: And {disfmarker}
PhD A: Right now the words like {pause} partial words are {pause} reject models and you normally allow those to match to any word .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: But then the background speech was also a reject model , and so this constraint of not allowing rejects in between {disfmarker} you know , it needs to differentiate between the two . So just sort of working through a bunch of debugging kinds of issues .
PhD F: Right .
PhD A: And another one is turns , like people starting with {vocalsound} " well I think " and someone else is {pause} " well how about " . So the word " well " is in this {disfmarker} in this {pause} segment multiple times , and as soon as it occurs usually the aligner will try to align it to the first person who says it . But then that constraint of sort of {disfmarker} uh , proximity constraint will push it over to the person who really said it in general .
Grad E: Is the proximity constraint a hard constraint , or did you do some sort of probabilistic weighting distance , or {disfmarker} ?
PhD F: We {disfmarker} we didn't {disfmarker}
PhD A: Right now it 's a kluge .
PhD F: No . We {disfmarker} w OK . We {disfmarker} it 's straightforward to actually just have a {disfmarker} a penalty that doesn't completely disallows it but discourages it . But , um , we just didn't have time to play with , you know , tuning yet another {disfmarker} yet another parameter .
Grad E: The ve level . Yeah .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD F: And really the reason we can't do it is just that we don't have a {disfmarker} we don't have ground truth for these . So , {vocalsound} we would need a hand - marked , um , {vocalsound} word - level alignments or at least sort of the boundaries of the speech betw you know , between the speakers . Um , and then use that as a reference and tune the parameters of the {disfmarker} of the model , uh , to op to get the best {pause} performance .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: G given {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean , I wa I wa I was gonna ask you anyway , uh , how you assessed that things were better .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: I looked at them . I spent two days {disfmarker} um , in Waves {disfmarker}
Professor B: OK .
PhD A: Oh , it was painful because {vocalsound} the thing is , you know the alignments share a lot in common , so {disfmarker} And you 're {disfmarker} yo you 're looking at these segments where there 's a lot of speech . I mean , a lot of them have a lot of words . Not by every speaker
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: but by some speaker there 's a lot of words . No , not {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: I mean that if you look at the individual segments from just one person you don't see a lot of words ,
PhD H: Ju
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: but altogether you 'll see a lot of words up there .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: And so the reject is also mapping and pauses {disfmarker} So I looked at them all in Waves and just lined up all the alignments , and , at first it sort of looked like a mess and then the more I looked at it , I thought " OK , well it 's moving these words leftward and {disfmarker} " You know , it wasn't that bad . It was just doing certain things wrong . So {disfmarker} But , I don't , you know , have time to l {comment} to look at all of them and it would be really useful to have , like , a {disfmarker} a transcriber who could use Waves , um , just mark , like , the beginning and end of the foreground speaker 's real words {disfmarker} like , the beginning of the first word , the end of the last word {disfmarker} and then we could , you know , do some adjustments .
Postdoc C: Yeah . I {disfmarker} OK . I have to ask you something , is i does it have to be Waves ? Because if we could benefit from what you did , incorporate that into the present transcripts , {comment} that would help .
PhD F: No .
Postdoc C: And then , um , the other thing is , I believe that I did hand So . One of these transcripts was gone over by a transcriber and then I hand - marked it myself so that we do have , uh , the beginning and ending of individual utterances . Um , I didn't do it word level ,
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc C: but {disfmarker} but in terms {disfmarker}
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc C: So I {disfmarker} so for {disfmarker} for one of the N S A groups . And also I went back to the original one that I first transcribed and {disfmarker} and did it w uh , w uh , utterance by utterance for that particular one . So I think you do have {disfmarker} if that 's a sufficient unit , I think that you do have hand - marking for that . But it 'd be wonderful to be able to {vocalsound} benefit from your Waves stuff .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: We don't care what {disfmarker} what tool you use .
PhD A: Yeah . I mean , if {disfmarker} if you can , um {disfmarker} if you wanna {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: OK . I used it in Transcriber
PhD F: U uh {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: and it 's {disfmarker} it 's in the {disfmarker}
PhD A: well , Jane and I were {disfmarker} just in terms of the tool , talking about this . I guess Sue had had some {pause} reactions . You know , interface - wise if you 're looking at speech , you wanna be able to know really where the words are . And so , {vocalsound} we can give you some examples of sort of what this output looks like ,
Postdoc C: Yeah , that 's right . Middle of the word , or {disfmarker}
PhD A: um , and see if you can in maybe incorporate it into the Transcriber tool some way , or {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Well , I th I 'm thinking just ch e e incorporating it into the representation .
PhD A: Um .
Postdoc C: I mean , if it 's {disfmarker} if it 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: You mean like {disfmarker} Yeah , word start insights .
Postdoc C: if you have start points , if you have , like , time tags ,
PhD A: Right .
Postdoc C: which is what I assume . Isn't that what {disfmarker} what you {disfmarker} ? Well , see , Adam would be {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah , whatever you use .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD F: I mean , we convert it to this format that the , um , NIST scoring tool unders uh , CTM . Conversation Time - Marked file . And {disfmarker} and then that 's the {disfmarker} that 's what the {disfmarker}
Grad E: I think Transcriber , uh , outputs CTM .
Postdoc C: If it {disfmarker} ? OK .
PhD A: Yeah .
Postdoc C: So you would know this more than I would .
Grad E: I think so .
PhD A: So , I mean {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: It seems like she {disfmarker} if she 's g if she 's moving time marks around ,
PhD F: Right .
Postdoc C: since our representation in Transcriber uses time marks , it seems like there should be some way of {disfmarker} of using that {disfmarker} benefitting from that .
Grad E: Right .
PhD A: Yeah , it wou the advantage would just be that when you brought up a bin you would be able {disfmarker} if you were zoomed in enough in Transcriber to see all the words ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: you would be able to , like , have the words sort of located in time , if you wanted to do that .
Professor B: So {disfmarker} so if we e e even just had a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} It sounds like w we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we almost do .
PhD A: So .
Professor B: Uh , if we {disfmarker} We have two .
Postdoc C: We have two .
Professor B: Yeah . Just ha uh , trying out {pause} the alignment {vocalsound} procedure that you have on that
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: you could actually get something , um {disfmarker} uh , uh , get an objective measure . Uh {disfmarker}
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: You mean on {disfmarker} on the hand - marked , um {disfmarker} So we {disfmarker} we only r hav I only looked at actually alignments from one meeting that we chose ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: I think MR four , just randomly , um {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}
PhD F: Actually , not randomly .
PhD A: Not randomly {disfmarker}
PhD F: We knew {disfmarker} we knew that it had these insertion errors from {disfmarker}
PhD A: It had sort of {pause} average recognition performance in a bunch of speakers
PhD F: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD A: and it was a Meeting Recorder meeting . Um . But , yeah , we should try to use what you have . I did re - run recognition on your new version of MR one .
Postdoc C: Oh , good .
PhD A: I {disfmarker} I mean the {disfmarker} the one with Dan {pause} Ellis in it {vocalsound} and Eric .
Postdoc C: Good ! Uh - huh . Yeah , exactly . Yeah . Yeah .
Grad G: I don't think that was the new version .
PhD A: Um {disfmarker} That {disfmarker} Yeah , actually it wasn't the new new , it was the medium new .
Postdoc C: OK .
PhD A: But {disfmarker} but we would {disfmarker} we should do the {disfmarker} the latest version .
Postdoc C: OK .
Grad G: Yeah .
PhD A: It was the one from last week .
Grad G: You {disfmarker} did you adjust the {disfmarker} the utterance times , um , for each channel ?
Postdoc C: Yes . Yes , I did . And furthermore , I found that there were a certain number where {disfmarker} {vocalsound} not {disfmarker} not a lot , but several times I actually {vocalsound} moved an utterance from {vocalsound} Adam 's channel to Dan 's or from Dan 's to Adam 's . So there was some speaker identif And the reason was because {vocalsound} I transcribed that at a point before {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , before we had the multiple audio available f so I couldn't switch between the audio . I {disfmarker} I transcribed it off of the mixed channel entirely , which meant in overlaps , I was at a {disfmarker} at a terrific disadvantage .
PhD A: Right . Right .
Postdoc C: In addition it was before the channelized , uh , possibility was there . And finally I did it using the speakers of my , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} of {disfmarker} you know , off the CPU on my {disfmarker} on my machine cuz I didn't have a headphone .
PhD A: Right .
Postdoc C: So it @ @ , like , I mean {disfmarker} Yeah , I {disfmarker} I mean , i in retrospect {vocalsound} it would 've been good to ha {vocalsound} have got I should 've gotten a headphone . But in any case , um , thi this is {disfmarker} this was transcribed in a {disfmarker} in a , {vocalsound} uh , less optimal way than {disfmarker} than the ones that came after it , and I was able to {disfmarker} you know , an and this meant that there were some speaker identif identifications which were changes .
Grad G: Well , I know there were some speaker labelling problems , um , after interruptions .
Postdoc C: Yeah . Fixed that .
Grad G: Is that what you 're referring to ? I mean , cuz there 's this one instance when , for example , you 're running down the stairs .
Postdoc C: Oh , well {disfmarker}
Grad G: I remember this meeting really well .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: Don {disfmarker} Don has had {disfmarker} {vocalsound} He knows {disfmarker} he can just read it like a play .
Grad G: Right . It 's a {disfmarker} Yeah , I 've {disfmarker} I 've {disfmarker} I 'm very well acquainted with this meeting .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad G: Yeah , I can s
PhD A: " And then she said , and then he said . "
Grad G: Yeah , I know it by heart . So , um , {vocalsound} there 's one point when you 're running down the stairs .
Postdoc C: Uh - oh .
Grad G: Right ? And , like , there 's an interruption . You interrupt somebody , but then there 's no line after that . For example , there 's no speaker identification after that line .
Postdoc C: Uh - huh .
Grad G: Is that what you 're talking about ? Or were there mislabellings as far as , like , the a Adam was {disfmarker} ?
Postdoc C: That was fixed , um , before {disfmarker} i i i I think I I think I understood that pretty {disfmarker}
Grad G: Yeah . Cuz I thought I let you know about that .
Postdoc C: Thank you for mentioning . Yeah , no , tha that {disfmarker} That I think went away a couple of versions ago ,
Grad G: Yeah . OK .
Postdoc C: but it 's good to know .
Grad G: But you 're actually saying that certain , uh , speakers were mis mis - identified .
Postdoc C: Yeah . So , with {disfmarker} under {disfmarker} um , uh , listening to the mixed channel , there were times when , as surprising as that is , I got Adam 's voice confused with Dan 's and vice versa {disfmarker}
Grad G: OK .
Postdoc C: not for long utterances ,
Grad G: OK .
PhD A: Yeah .
Postdoc C: but jus just a couple of places ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc C: and embedde embedded in overlaps . The other thing that was w interesting to me was that I picked up a lot of , um , backchannels which were hidden in the mixed signal ,
PhD A: Right .
Postdoc C: which , you know , I mean , you c not {disfmarker} not too surprising . But the other thing that {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I hadn't thought about this , but I thou I wanted to raise this when you were {disfmarker} uh , with respect to also a strategy which might help with the alignments potentially , but that 's {disfmarker} When I was looking at these backchannels , they were turning up usually {disfmarker} {vocalsound} very often in {disfmarker} w well , I won't say " usually " {disfmarker} but anyway , very often , I picked them up in a channel {vocalsound} w which was the person who had asked a question . S so , like , someone says " an and have you done the so - and - so ? " And then there would be backchannels , but it would be the person who asked the question . Other people weren't really doing much backchannelling . And , you know , sometimes you have the {disfmarker} Yeah , uh - huh .
PhD A: Well , that 's interesting . Yeah .
Postdoc C: I mean , i it wouldn't be perfect , but {disfmarker} but it does seem more natural to give a backchannel when {disfmarker} when you 're somehow involved in the topic ,
PhD A: No , that 's really interesting .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc C: and the most natural way is for you to have initiated the topic by asking a question .
PhD F: Well ,
PhD A: That 's interesting .
PhD F: I think {disfmarker} No . I think it 's {disfmarker} actually I think what 's going on is backchannelling is something that happens in two - party conversations .
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: And if you ask someone a question , you essentially initiating a little two - party conversation .
Postdoc C: Yeah .
PhD A: Well , actu Yeah , when we looked at this {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Exactly .
PhD F: So then you 're {disfmarker} so and then you 're expected to backchannel because the person is addressing you directly and not everybody .
Postdoc C: Exactly . Exactly my point . An - and so this is the expectation thing that {disfmarker} uh , uh ,
PhD F: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Right .
Postdoc C: just the dyadic {disfmarker}
PhD F: Right .
Postdoc C: But in addition , you know , if someone has done this analysis himself and isn't involved in the dyad , but they might also give backchannels to verify what {disfmarker} what the answer is that this {disfmarker} that the {disfmarker} the answerer 's given {disfmarker}
Professor B: H
PhD A: Right .
Professor B: I tell you , I say {disfmarker} I say " uh - huh " a lot ,
PhD A: It 's {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: There you go .
PhD A: Well , but it 's interesting cuz , uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: while people are talking to each other .
PhD A: But there are fewer {disfmarker} I think there are fewer " uh - huhs " .
Postdoc C: There you go . Yeah . Yeah .
PhD A: I mean , just from {disfmarker} We were looking at word frequency lists to try to find the cases that we would allow to have the reject words in between in doing the alignment . You know the ones we wouldn't constrain to be next to the other words .
Postdoc C: Oh , yeah .
PhD A: And " uh - huh " is not as frequent as it sort of would be in Switchboard , if you looked at just a word frequency list of one - word short utterances . And " yeah " is way up there , but not " uh - huh " . And so I was thinking thi it 's not like {pause} you 're being encouraged by everybody else to keep {pause} talking in the meeting . And uh , that 's all , I I 'll stop there , cuz I I think what you say makes a lot of sense .
Postdoc C: Well , that 's right . And that would {disfmarker}
PhD A: But it was sort of {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Well , an And what you say is the {disfmarker} is the re uh , o other side of this , which is that , you know , so th there are lots of channels where you don't have these backchannels , w when a question has been asked and {disfmarker} and these {disfmarker}
PhD A: Right . There 's just probably less backchannelling in general ,
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm . So that 's good news , really .
PhD A: even if you consider every other person altogether one person in the meeting , but we 'll find out anyway . We were {disfmarker} I guess the other thing we 're {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} I should say is that we 're gonna , um try {disfmarker} compare this type of overlap analysis to Switchboard , where {disfmarker}
PhD F: And
PhD A: and CallHome , where we have both sides , so that we can try to answer this question of , you know , {vocalsound} is there really more overlap in meetings or is it just because we don't have the other channel in Switchboard
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: and we don't know what people are doing . Try to create a paper out of that .
Professor B: Yeah . I mean , y y you folks have probably {pause} already told me , but were {disfmarker} were you intending to do a Eurospeech submission , or {disfmarker} ?
PhD A: Um , you mean the one due tomorrow ?
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: Yeah . Well , we 're still , like , writing the scripts for doing the research , and we will {disfmarker} Yes , we 're gonna try .
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: And I was telling Don , do not {pause} take this as an example of how people should work .
Professor B: Do as I say ,
Grad G: That 's r
PhD A: So , {comment} we will try .
Professor B: don't do as I do . Yeah .
PhD A: It 'll probably be a little late ,
Grad E: Well {disfmarker}
PhD A: but I 'm gonna try it .
Grad E: It is different . In previous years , Eurospeech only had the abstract due by now , not the full paper .
PhD A: Right .
Grad G: Right .
Grad E: And so all our timing was off . I 've given up on trying to do digits . I just don't think that what I have so far makes a Eurospeech paper .
PhD A: Well , I 'm no We may be in the same position , and I figured {vocalsound} we 'll try , because that 'll at least get us to the point where we have {disfmarker} We have this really nice database format that Andreas and I were working out that {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's not very fancy . It 's just a ASCII line by line format , but it does give you information {disfmarker}
PhD F: It 's the {disfmarker} it 's the spurt format .
PhD A: It {disfmarker} Yeah , we 're calling these " spurts " after Chafe . I was trying to find what 's a word for {pause} a continuous region with {pause} pauses around it ?
Postdoc C: Hmm .
Professor B: Yeah . I know that th the Telecom people use {disfmarker} use " spurt " for that .
Postdoc C: Good .
PhD A: They do ? Oh !
Professor B: Yes .
PhD F: Oh .
PhD A: Oh .
Professor B: And that 's {disfmarker} I mean , I {disfmarker} I was using that for a while when I was doing the rate of speech stuff ,
PhD A: I would jus
Professor B: because I {disfmarker} because I looked up in some books and I found {disfmarker} OK , I wanna find a spurt {vocalsound} in which {disfmarker}
PhD A: Ah , right ! It 's just , like , defined by the acoustics .
Professor B: and {disfmarker} an because {disfmarker} cuz it 's another question about how {pause} many pauses they put in between them .
Grad E: Horrible .
PhD A: Right .
Professor B: But how fast do they do {pause} the words within the spurt ?
PhD A: Right .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: Well , that 's what we were calling spurt ,
Grad E: It 's gonna {disfmarker}
Grad G: you know " Burst " also ?
Grad E: Burst .
Grad G: Isn't " burst " is used also ?
PhD A: so {disfmarker}
Grad E: Spurt has the horrible name overloading with other {disfmarker} with hardware at ICSI .
Professor B: Here . Just very locally , yeah .
PhD A: Well , well , Chafe had this wor I think it was Chafe , or somebody had a {disfmarker} the word " spurt " originally ,
Professor B: But {disfmarker} but that just {disfmarker}
PhD H: Here @ @ {disfmarker}
PhD A: and so I {disfmarker} But tha that 's good to know .
Postdoc C: Actually {disfmarker}
PhD A: Was thi it 's Chafe ?
Postdoc C: Well , see , I know S Sue wrote about spurts of development .
PhD F: So maybe we should talk {disfmarker}
PhD A: Maybe it was Sue {disfmarker} ? Y
Postdoc C: But , in any case , I think it 's a good term ,
PhD A: So we have spurts and we have spurt - ify dot shell and spurt - ify
Professor B: Yeah .
Postdoc C: and , uh {disfmarker}
Grad E: Hmm !
Professor B: Yeah .
Postdoc C: And ma maybe {disfmarker} maybe Chafe did .
PhD F: Uh .
PhD A: And then it 's got all {disfmarker} it 's a verb now .
Postdoc C: I know {disfmarker} I know Ch - Chafe dealt with {disfmarker}
PhD F: So s
Grad G: That 's cool .
PhD F: W uh , w
Postdoc C: Chafe speaks about intonation units .
PhD A: Yes . Right .
Postdoc C: But maybe he speaks about spurts as well
PhD F: We
Postdoc C: and I just don't know . Yeah , go ahead .
Grad E: I 've heard " burst " also .
PhD F: So what we 're doing {disfmarker} uh , this {disfmarker} this is just {disfmarker} maybe someone has s some {disfmarker} some ideas about how to do it better ,
Grad G: Mmm .
PhD F: but we {disfmarker} So we 're taking these , uh , alignments from the individual channels . We 're {disfmarker} from each alignment we 're producing , uh , one of these CTM files ,
Postdoc C: Great .
PhD F: which essentially has {disfmarker} it 's just a linear sequence of words with the begin times for every word and the duration .
PhD A: It looks like a Waves label file almost . Right ?
PhD F: And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and of course {disfmarker}
PhD A: It 's just {disfmarker}
PhD F: Right . But it has {disfmarker} one {disfmarker} the first column has the meeting name , so it could actually contain several meetings . Um . And the second column is the channel . Third column is the , um , start times of the words and the fourth column is the duration of the words . And then we 're , um {disfmarker} OK . Then we have a messy alignment process where we actually insert into the sequence of words the , uh , tags for , like , where {disfmarker} where sentence {disfmarker} ends of sentence , question marks , um , {vocalsound} various other things .
PhD A: Yeah . These are things that we had Don {disfmarker}
PhD F: Uh .
PhD A: So , Don sort of , um , propagated the punctuation from the original transcriber {disfmarker}
PhD F: Right .
PhD A: so whether it was , like , question mark or period or , {vocalsound} um , you know , comma and things like that , and we kept the {disfmarker} and disfluency dashes {disfmarker} uh , kept those in because we sort of wanna know where those are relative to the spurt overlaps {disfmarker}
PhD F: Mm - hmm . Right .
PhD A: sp overlaps ,
PhD F: So {disfmarker} so those are actually sort of retro - fitted into the time alignment .
PhD A: or {disfmarker}
PhD F: And then we merge all the alignments from the various channels and we sort them by time . And then there 's a {disfmarker} then there 's a process where you now determine the spurts . That is {disfmarker} Actually , no , you do that before you merge the various channels . So you {disfmarker} you id identify by some criterion , which is pause length {disfmarker} you identify the beginnings and ends of these spurts , and you put another set of tags in there to keep those straight .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: And then you merge everything in terms of , you know , linearizing the sequence based on the time marks . And then {vocalsound} you extract the individual channels again , but this time you know where the other people start and end talking {disfmarker} you know , where their spurts start and end . And so you extract the individual channels , uh , one sp spurt by spurt as it were . Um , and inside the words or between the words you now have begin and end {pause} tags for overlaps . So , you {disfmarker} you basically have everything sort of lined up and in a form where you can look at the individual speakers and how their speech relates to the other speakers ' speech .
Grad E: Right .
PhD A: Uh , I mean , I think that 's actually really u useful also
PhD F: And {disfmarker}
PhD A: because even if you weren't studying overlaps , if you wanna get a transcription for the far - field mikes , how are you gonna know which words from which speakers occurred at which times relative to each other ? You have to be able to {pause} get a transcript like {disfmarker} like this anyway , just for doing far - field recognition . So , you know , it 's {disfmarker} it 's sort of {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD A: I thi it 's just an issue we haven't dealt with before , how you time - align things that are overlapping anyway .
Postdoc C: That 's wonderful .
PhD F: So {disfmarker}
PhD A: I mean , i I never thought about it before ,
Grad E: Well {disfmarker}
PhD F: And {disfmarker} and we {disfmarker}
PhD A: but {disfmarker}
Grad E: Y yes .
PhD F: In {disfmarker}
Grad E: I mean , s when I came up with the original data {disfmarker} suggested data format based on the transcription graph , there 's capability of doing that sort of thing in there .
PhD A: Right . But you can't get it directly from the transcription .
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm . Yeah , that 's right .
PhD F: Right . Well , this is {disfmarker} this is just {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah , this is like a poor man 's ver formatting version . But it 's , you know {disfmarker} It 's clean , it 's just not fancy .
Grad E: Right .
PhD A: Um .
PhD F: Well , there 's lots of little things . It 's like there 're twelve different scripts which you run and then at the end you have what you want . But , um , at the very last stage we throw away the actual time information . All we care about is whether {disfmarker} that there 's a certain word was overlapped by someone else 's word . So you sort of {disfmarker} at that point , you discretize things into just having overlap or no overlap . Because we figure that 's about the level of analysis that we want to do for this paper .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: But if you wanted to do a more fine - grained analysis and say , you know , how far into the word is the overlap , you could do that .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD F: It 's just {disfmarker} it 'll just require more {disfmarker}
PhD A: Just {pause} sort of huge .
PhD F: you know , slightly different {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: What 's interesting is it 's exactly what , um , i in discussing with , um , Sue about this ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Postdoc C: um , she , um , i i i indicated that that {disfmarker} you know , that 's very important for overlap analysis .
PhD A: Yeah . It 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to know ,
PhD F: Right .
PhD A: and also I think as a human , like , I don't always hear these in the actual order that they occur . So I can have two foreground speakers , you know , Morgan an and {vocalsound} um , Adam and Jane could all be talking , and I could align each of them to be starting their utterance at the correct time , and then look where they are relative to each other , and that 's not really what I heard .
Postdoc C: And that 's another thing she said .
PhD A: Cuz it 's just hard to do .
Postdoc C: This is {disfmarker} This is Bever 's {disfmarker} Bever 's effect ,
PhD A: Y Yeah .
Postdoc C: when {disfmarker} where {disfmarker} In psy ps psycho - linguistics you have these experiments where people have perceptual biases a as to what they hear ,
PhD A: It 's sort of {disfmarker} Yeah , you sort of move things around until you get to a {pause} low information point
Postdoc C: that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} Not the best {disfmarker}
PhD A: and yo then you can bring in the other person . So it 's {vocalsound} actually not even possible , I think , for any person to listen to a mixed signal , even equalize , and make sure that they have all the words in the right order . So , I guess , we 'll try to write this Eurospeech paper .
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm . Superb .
PhD A: I mean , we will write it . Whether they accept it {pause} late or not , I don't know . Um , and the good thing is that we have {disfmarker} It 's sort of a beginning of what Don can use to link the prosodic features from each file to each other .
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah . That 's the good thing about these pape
PhD A: So . i You know , might as well .
PhD F: Plus , mayb
PhD H: Hmm ?
PhD A: We - I ju Otherwise we won't get the work done {comment} {vocalsound} on our deadline .
PhD F: I don't know , m
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: I mean , u u Jane likes to look at data . Maybe , you know , you could {disfmarker} you could look at this format and see if you find anything interesting .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: I don't know .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: No , it 's {disfmarker} that 's the good thing about these pape paper deadlines and , uh , you know , class projects , and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and things like that ,
Postdoc C: Well , what I 'm thinking is {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah .
Postdoc C: Yeah .
PhD A: Right .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc C: Well , my {disfmarker}
PhD F: Well th th the other thing that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that yo that you usually don't tell your graduate students is that these deadlines are actually not that , um , you know , strictly enforced ,
Professor B: because you {disfmarker} you really get g
PhD A: Forces you to do the work .
Postdoc C: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: Exactly .
Grad E: Strict .
PhD F: because {pause} the {disfmarker}
Professor B: Oh , now it 's out in the public , this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this secret information .
PhD F: because {disfmarker}
PhD A: Right .
Professor B: Yeah .
Postdoc C: I think we can ha
PhD F: bec b {vocalsound} Nah {disfmarker}
PhD A: So {disfmarker}
Grad E: No .
Professor B: No .
Postdoc C: Nah .
PhD F: i Because these {disfmarker} the conference organizers actually have an interest in getting lots of submissions .
PhD A: Right .
Grad E: Right .
PhD F: I mean , a {disfmarker} a monetary interest .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um .
Professor B: Th - that 's {disfmarker} that 's true .
Postdoc C: And good ones , good ones , which sometimes means {pause} a little extra time .
PhD F: And good submission
Professor B: That 's {disfmarker}
PhD F: Right .
Professor B: That 's true .
PhD F: Well {disfmarker} That 's another issue ,
Professor B: By th by the way , this is totally unfair , you may {disfmarker} you may feel ,
PhD F: but {disfmarker}
Professor B: but the {disfmarker} the , uh {disfmarker} the morning meeting folks actually have an {disfmarker} an extra month or so .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Yep .
Grad E: Yep . The Aurora {disfmarker} there 's a special Aurora {disfmarker}
PhD A: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD F: When {disfmarker}
Professor B: There 's a special Aurora session
PhD A: Oh .
Professor B: and the Aurora pe people involved in Aurora have till Ma - uh , early May {pause} or something to turn in their paper .
PhD F: Mmm .
PhD A: Oh .
PhD F: Mmm .
PhD A: Oh , well maybe we 'll submit to s {comment} {vocalsound} Actually {disfmarker}
PhD F: Well , then you can just {disfmarker} Maybe you can submit the digits paper on e for the Aurora session .
PhD H: Yeah .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad E: Oh , I could !
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: I if it w
Grad E: I could submit that to Aurora .
Professor B: Well {disfmarker}
Grad E: That would be pretty {disfmarker} pretty {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor B: i it has {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B:
Grad E: S That wouldn't work .
Professor B: No , it wouldn't work .
Grad E: It 's not Aurora .
Professor B: It 's {disfmarker} it 's not the Aurora {disfmarker} I mean , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's actually the Aurora task .
PhD A: Maybe they 'll get s
Grad E: Aurora 's very specific .
Professor B: It
PhD A: Well , maybe it won't be after this {vocalsound} deadline {pause} extension .
PhD F: But {disfmarker} but the people {disfmarker} I mean , a {disfmarker} a paper that is not on Aurora would probably be more interesting at that point
PhD A: Maybe they 'll {disfmarker}
PhD F: because everybody 's so sick and tired of the Aurora task .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad E: Oh , I thought you meant this was just the digits section . I didn't know you meant it was Aurora digits .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: Well , no . If you {disfmarker} if you have {disfmarker} it 's to {disfmarker} if you discuss some relation to the Aurora task , like if you use the same {disfmarker}
Professor B: This is not the Aurora task . So they just do a little grep for {disfmarker}
PhD A: Do {disfmarker} uh , d d Do not {disfmarker} do not {disfmarker} we are not setting a good example .
PhD F: Um . Well , a relation other than negation , maybe ,
PhD A: This is not a {disfmarker}
PhD F: um . So .
PhD A: Anyway .
PhD F: I don't know .
PhD A: But the good thing is this does {disfmarker}
Grad E: Well , I I don't know . I mean , you could {disfmarker} you could do a paper on {pause} what 's wrong with the Aurora task by comparing it to {pause} other ways of doing it .
PhD F: How well does an Aurora system do on {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} you know , on digits collected in a {disfmarker} in this environment ?
PhD H:
Grad E: Different way . Yeah .
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor B: Maybe .
PhD F: Maybe .
Grad E: Pretty hokey .
Professor B: I think it 's a littl little far - fetched . Nah , I mean , the thing is Aurora 's pretty closed community .
Grad E: Yep .
Professor B: I mean , you know , the people who were involved in the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the only people who are allowed to test on that are people who {disfmarker} who made it above a certain threshold in the first round ,
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: It 's very specific .
Professor B: uh {vocalsound} w in ninety - nine and it 's {disfmarker} it 's sort of a {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} not like a {disfmarker}
PhD F: Well , that 's maybe why they don't f know that they have a crummy system . I mean , a crummy back - end . No , I mean {disfmarker} I mean , seriously , if you {disfmarker} if you have a very {disfmarker} No , I 'm sorry .
PhD A: Uh , {comment} " beep " {vocalsound} " bee "
Grad E: I mean , th
PhD F: No . I didn't mean anybody {disfmarker} any particular system . I meant this H T K back - end .
Professor B: Oh , you don't like HTK ?
PhD F: If they {disfmarker}
PhD H: Yeah .
PhD F: I don't h I don't have any stock in HTK or Entropic or anything .
Professor B: No . I mean , this {disfmarker} it it 's the HTK {pause} that is trained on a very limited amount of data .
Grad E: It 's d it 's very specific .
PhD F: Right .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: But so , if you {disfmarker} But maybe you should , you know , consider more {disfmarker} using more data , or {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker}
Professor B: Oh , yeah . I {disfmarker} I really think that that 's true . And they i i
PhD F: If yo if you sort of hermetically stay within one task and don't look left and right , then you 're gonna {disfmarker}
Grad E: But they {disfmarker} they had {disfmarker}
Professor B: i But {disfmarker}
Grad E: They had something very specific in mind when they designed it . Right ?
Professor B: Well , u i
PhD F: Right .
Grad E: And so {disfmarker} so you can {disfmarker} you can argue about maybe that wasn't the right thing to do , but , you know , they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they had something specific .
Professor B: But , one of the reasons I have Chuck 's messing around with {disfmarker} with the back - end that you 're not supposed to touch {disfmarker} I mean , for the evaluations , yes , we 'll run a version that hasn't been touched .
PhD F: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But , uh , one of the reasons I have him messing around with that , because I think it 's sort of an open question that we don't know the answer to . People always say very glibly {vocalsound} that i if you s show improvement on a bad system , that doesn't mean anything , cuz it may not be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} show {disfmarker} uh , because , you know , it doesn't tell you anything about the good system .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And I {disfmarker} I 've always sort of felt that that depends . You know , that if some peopl If you 're actually are getting at something that has some {pause} conceptual substance to it , it will port .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And in fact , most methods that people now use were originally tried with something that was not their absolute {pause} best system at some level . But of course , sometimes it doesn't , uh , port . So I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's an interesting question . If we 're getting {pause} three percent error on , uh , u uh , English , uh , nati native speakers , {vocalsound} um , using the Aurora system , and we do some improvements and bring it from three to two , {vocalsound} do those same improvements bring , uh , th you know , the SRI system from one point three to {disfmarker} you know , to {vocalsound} point eight ?
PhD F: Hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Zero .
Professor B: Well . You know , so that 's {disfmarker} that 's something we can test .
PhD F: Mmm . Right .
Professor B: So . Anyway .
PhD F: OK .
Professor B: I think we 've {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we 've covered that one up extremely well .
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Whew !
Professor B: OK . So , um {disfmarker} Yeah . So tha so we 'll {disfmarker} you know , maybe you guys 'll have {disfmarker} have one . Uh , you {disfmarker} you and , uh {disfmarker} and Dan have {disfmarker} have a paper that {disfmarker} that 's going in .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: You know , that 's {disfmarker} that 's pretty solid , on the segmentation {pause} stuff .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah . I will send you the {disfmarker} the final version ,
Professor B: Yeah . And the Aurora folks here will {disfmarker} will definitely get something in on Aurora ,
PhD D: which is not {disfmarker}
PhD F: Actually this {disfmarker} this , um {disfmarker} So , there 's another paper .
Professor B: so .
PhD F: It 's a Eurospeech paper but not related to meetings . But it 's on digits . So , um , uh , a colleague at SRI developed a improved version of MMIE training .
Professor B: Uh - huh .
PhD F: And he tested it mostly on digits because it 's sort of a {disfmarker} you know , it doesn't take weeks to train it .
Professor B: Right .
PhD F: Um . And got some very impressive results , um , with , you know , discriminative , uh , Gaussian training . Um , you know , like , um , error rates {pause} go from {disfmarker} I don't know , in very noisy environment , like from , uh , uh {disfmarker} I for now I {disfmarker} OK , now I have the order of magnit I 'm not sure about the order of magnitude . Was it like from ten percent to {vocalsound} eight percent or from e e you know , point {disfmarker} you know , from one percent to point eight percent ?
Professor B: H i it got {disfmarker} it got better .
PhD F: I mean , it 's a {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah , yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD F: It got better . That 's the important thing .
Grad E: Hey , that 's the same percent relative ,
PhD F: Yeah . But it 's {disfmarker}
Grad E: so {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah . Right .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: It 's , uh , something in {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: Twenty percent relative gain .
PhD F: Right .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah . Um , {vocalsound} let 's see . I think the only thing we had left was {disfmarker} unless somebody else {disfmarker} Well , there 's a couple things . Uh , one is {pause} anything that , um , {vocalsound} anybody has to say about Saturday ? Anything we should do in prep for Saturday ? Um {disfmarker} I guess everybody knows about {disfmarker} I mean , u um , Mari was asking {disfmarker} was trying to come up with something like an agenda and we 're sort of fitting around people 's times a bit . But , um , {vocalsound} clearly when we actually get here we 'll {pause} move things around this , as we need to , but {disfmarker} so you can't absolutely count on it .
PhD D: OK .
Professor B: But {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: Are we meeting in here probably or {disfmarker} ? OK .
Professor B: Yeah . That was my thought .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: I think this is {disfmarker}
PhD F: Are we recording it ?
PhD A: We won't have enough microphones ,
Professor B:
PhD A: but {disfmarker}
Professor B: u No . I {disfmarker} I hadn't in intended to .
PhD A: There 's no way .
Professor B: We won we wanna {disfmarker} I mean , they 're {disfmarker} there 's gonna be , uh , Jeff , Katrin , Mari and two students .
PhD F: OK .
Professor B: So there 's five {pause} from there .
Grad E: And Brian .
Professor B: And Brian 's coming ,
PhD F: But you know th
Professor B: so that 's six .
Grad E: And plus all of us .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD F: Can use the Oprah mike .
PhD A: Depends how fast you can {pause} throw it .
Grad E: It seems like too many {disfmarker} too much coming and going .
PhD A: It 's just {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: We don't even have enough channel {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well {disfmarker}
PhD F: Because it would be a different kind of meeting ,
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD F: that 's what I 'm {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well {disfmarker}
PhD F: But {disfmarker}
PhD H: Yeah .
Professor B: I hadn't {pause} really thought of it ,
PhD F: Maybe just {disfmarker} maybe not the whole day
Professor B: but {disfmarker}
PhD F: but just , you know , maybe some {disfmarker} I mean ,
Professor B: Maybe part of it .
PhD F: part of it ?
Professor B: Maybe part of it .
Grad E: Make everyone read digits .
Professor B: At the same time .
PhD A: At the same time .
Grad E: At the same time .
PhD F: Please .
PhD H:
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: We c
Professor B: I don't know .
PhD A: That 's their initiation into our
Professor B: Any
PhD A: w
Grad E: Into our {disfmarker} our {disfmarker} our cult .
PhD A: Yeah , our {disfmarker} Yeah , our {disfmarker}
PhD F: Maybe the sections that are not right afte you know , after lunch when everybody 's still munching and {disfmarker}
PhD A: So can you send out a schedule once you know it , jus ?
Professor B: OK . Well {disfmarker}
PhD A: Is {disfmarker} is there a r ?
Professor B: OK . Yeah . I guess I sent it around a little bit .
PhD A: There 's a res Is it changed now , or {disfmarker} ?
Professor B: But {disfmarker} I hadn't heard back from Mari after I {disfmarker} I u u uh , brought up the point abou about Andreas 's schedule . So , {vocalsound} um , maybe when I get back there 'll be {pause} some {disfmarker} some mail from her .
PhD A: OK .
Professor B: So , I 'll make a {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: I 'm looking forward to seeing your representation . That 'd be , uh {disfmarker}
PhD A: And w we should get {pause} the two meetings from y
Postdoc C: I 'd like to see that . Yeah .
PhD A: I mean , I know about the first meeting , um , but the other one that you did , the NSA one , which we {pause} hadn't done cuz we weren't running recognition on it , because the non - native speaker {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: there were five non - native speakers .
Postdoc C: Mm - hmm . I see . Mm - hmm .
PhD A: But , it would be useful for the {disfmarker} to see what we get {pause} with that one . So .
Postdoc C: Great . OK . It 's , uh , two thousand eleven twenty - one one thousand .
PhD A: Yeah , three . Right . So {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Great . I sent email when I finished the {disfmarker} that one .
PhD A: N S A three , I think .
Postdoc C: That was sort of son Yeah , that 's right . That 's right . That 's much simpler .
PhD A: I don't know what they said but I know the number .
Professor B: Th - that part 's definitely gonna confuse somebody who looks at these later .
PhD F: Right .
Professor B: I mean , this is {disfmarker} we we 're recording secret NSA meetings ?
PhD F: Um . Not the {disfmarker}
Professor B: I mean , it 's {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah .
Postdoc C: Yeah . Not that NSA .
PhD F: Uh . The {disfmarker} th the {disfmarker}
PhD A: They are hard to understand .
Professor B: It 's network services and applications .
PhD F: Wait .
PhD A: They 're very , uh , out there .
PhD F: The {disfmarker}
PhD A: I have no idea what they 're talking about .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: The , um {disfmarker} th the other good thing about the alignments is that , um , it 's not always the machine 's fault if it doesn't work . So , you can actually find , um ,
PhD A: It 's the person 's fault .
PhD F: problem {disfmarker} uh , proble
PhD A: It 's Morgan 's fault .
PhD F: You can find {disfmarker}
Professor B: It 's always Morgan 's fault .
PhD F: You can find , uh , problems with {disfmarker} with the transcripts , um , you know ,
Grad E: Oh .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD F: and go back and fix them .
PhD A: Tha - There are some cases like where the {disfmarker} the wrong speaker {disfmarker} uh , these ca Not a lot , but where the {disfmarker} the wrong person {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the speech is addre attached to the wrong speaker
PhD F: But {disfmarker}
PhD A: and you can tell that when you run it . Or at least you can get {pause} clues to it .
Postdoc C: Interesting .
PhD A: So these are from the early transcriptions that people did on the mixed signals , like what you have .
Postdoc C: I guess it does w Mm - hmm . It also raises the possibility of , um , using that kind of representation {disfmarker} I mean , I don't know , this 'd be something we 'd wanna check , {comment} but maybe using that representation for data entry and then displaying it on the channelized , uh , representation , cuz it {disfmarker} I think that the {disfmarker} I mean , my {disfmarker} my preference in terms of , like , looking at the data is to see it {pause} in this kind of musical score format .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc C: And also , s you know , Sue 's preference as well .
PhD A: Yeah , if you can get it to {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} but , I mean , this {disfmarker} if this is a better interface for making these kinds of , uh , you know , lo clos local changes , then that 'd be fine , too . I don't {disfmarker} I have no idea . I think this is something that would need to be checked . Yeah .
Professor B: OK . Th - the other thing I had actually was , I {disfmarker} I didn't realize this till today , but , uh , this is , uh , Jose 's last day .
Grad E: Yeah .
PhD H: Is my last {disfmarker} my last day .
PhD A: Oh !
Postdoc C: Oh .
PhD F: Oh !
Grad E: You 're not gonna be here tomorrow ?
PhD H: My {disfmarker} {vocalsound} my last meeting {pause} about meetings .
Grad E: Oh , that 's right . Tomorrow {disfmarker}
PhD H: Yeah .
PhD D: The last meeting meeting ?
PhD H: Because , eh , I leave , eh , the next Sunday .
Grad E: It 's off .
PhD A: Oh .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD H: I will come back to home {disfmarker} to Spain .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: Oh .
Professor B: I d so I {disfmarker} I jus
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD H: And I {disfmarker} I would like to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to say thank you very much , eh , to all people {pause} in the group and at ICSI ,
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Yeah . It was good having you .
PhD F: Mmm .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD H: because I {disfmarker} I enjoyed @ @ very much ,
PhD F: Mmm .
PhD H: uh . And I 'm sorry by the result of overlapping , because , eh , {vocalsound} I haven't good results , eh , yet but , eh , {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I pretend {comment} to {disfmarker} to continuing out to Spain , eh , during the {disfmarker} the following months ,
Professor B: Uh - huh .
PhD H: eh , because I have , eh , another ideas but , eh , I haven't enough time to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} with six months it 's not enough to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to {disfmarker} to research ,
Grad E: Yep .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD H: eh , and e i I mean , if , eh , the topic is , eh , so difficult , uh , in my opinion , there isn't {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah . Maybe somebody else will come along and will be , uh , interested in working on it and could start off from where you are also , you know . They 'd make use of {disfmarker} of what you 've done .
PhD H: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD H: Yeah . But , eh , I {disfmarker} I will try to recommend , eh , at , eh , {vocalsound} the Spanish government but , eh , the following @ @ scholarship , eh , eh , {vocalsound} eh , will be here {pause} more time , because eh , i in my opinion is {disfmarker} is better , {vocalsound} eh , for us {pause} to {disfmarker} to spend more time here and to work more time i i in a topic .
Professor B: Yeah , it 's a very short time .
PhD H: No ? But , uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad E: Yeah , six months is hard .
PhD H: Yeah . It is .
Grad E: I think a year is a lot better .
PhD H: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD H: It 's difficult . You {disfmarker} e you have , eh {disfmarker} you are lucky , and you {disfmarker} you find a solution {comment} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some few tim uh , months , eh ? OK . But , eh , I think it 's not , eh , common . But , eh , anyway , thank you . Thank you very much . Eh , I {disfmarker} I bring the chocolate , eh , to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} to tear , uh , with {disfmarker} with you ,
PhD A: Oh .
Postdoc C: Ah .
PhD F: Mmm .
Postdoc C: Nice .
PhD H: uh . I {disfmarker} I hope if you need , eh , something , eh , from us in the future , I {disfmarker} I will be at Spain , {vocalsound} to you help , uh .
Professor B: Well .
Grad E: Great .
Postdoc C: Great .
PhD A: Right .
Professor B: Thank you , Jose .
Postdoc C: Thank you .
PhD H: And , thank you very much .
PhD F: Have a good trip .
Professor B: Yeah .
Postdoc C: Yeah .
PhD F: Keep in touch .
PhD H: Thank you .
Professor B: Yeah . OK . I guess , uh , unless somebody has something else , we 'll read {disfmarker} read our digits
Grad E: Digits ?
Professor B: and we 'll get our {disfmarker}
PhD D: Uh .
Professor B: get our last bit of , uh , Jose 's {disfmarker} Jose {disfmarker} Jose 's digit {disfmarker}
PhD D: Oops .
Grad E: Are we gonna do them simultaneously or {disfmarker} ?
PhD H: You {disfmarker} eh {disfmarker}
Professor B: Uh , I 'm sorry ?
PhD H: Ye - ye you prefer , eh , to eat , eh , chocolate , eh , at the coffee break , eh , at the {disfmarker} ? {vocalsound} Or you prefer now , before after {disfmarker} ?
Postdoc C: Well , we have a time {disfmarker}
PhD F: No , we prefer to keep it for ourselves .
PhD D: During {disfmarker}
Postdoc C: Well , we have a s a time {disfmarker} time constraint .
PhD F: Yeah , yeah .
PhD D: during digits .
Professor B: So keep it away from that end of the table .
Postdoc C: Yeah .
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD H: Yeah .
PhD A: Why is it that I can read your mind ?
Postdoc C: Yeah .
Grad E: Well , we 've gotta wait until after di after we take the mikes off .
PhD D: No , no .
Grad E: So are we gonna do digits simultaneously
PhD A: You {disfmarker} This is our reward if we {pause} do our digi
Professor B: Well ? Yeah .
Postdoc C: OK .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad E: or what ?
PhD D: Simultaneous digit chocolate task .
PhD H: I {disfmarker} I think , eh , it 's enough , eh , for more peopl for more people {pause} after .
Professor B: We 're gonna {disfmarker} we 're gonna do digits at the same {disfmarker}
PhD A: Oh .
PhD F: Mmm !
Postdoc C: That 's nice .
PhD H: But , eh {disfmarker}
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Oh , thanks , Jose .
Professor B: Um .
Postdoc C: Wow .
PhD H: To Andreas , the idea is {disfmarker} is good . {vocalsound} s To eat here .
Professor B: Well {disfmarker}
PhD F: Mmm .
Postdoc C: Wow . Very nice .
PhD F: Oh .
PhD A: Oh , wow .
Professor B: Tha - that 's {disfmarker} that looks great .
PhD F: Oh , yeah . Th - it doesn't {disfmarker} it won't leave this room .
Professor B: Alright , so in the interest of getting to the {disfmarker}
PhD A: We could do digits while other people eat .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: So it 's background crunching .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD H: Yeah .
PhD F: Mmm .
PhD A: We don't have background chewing .
Postdoc C: Nice .
PhD H: Is , eh , a {disfmarker} another acoustic event .
PhD D: Background crunch . Yeah .
PhD A: No , we don't have any data with background eating .
PhD F: Mmm .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: I 'm serious . You
Professor B: She 's {disfmarker} she 's serious .
PhD A: I am serious .
Grad E: It 's just the rest of the digits {disfmarker} the rest of the digits are very clean ,
Professor B: She is serious .
PhD F: Mmm .
PhD A: Well {disfmarker} ?
PhD H: Are you {disfmarker} ? Oh , they 're clean .
PhD D: Yeah !
Grad E: um , without a lot of background noise ,
PhD A: And it {disfmarker} You have to write down , like , while y what you 're {disfmarker} what ch chocolate you 're eating
Grad E: so I 'm just not sure {disfmarker}
PhD A: cuz they might make different sounds , like n nuts {disfmarker} chocolate with nuts , chocolate without nuts .
Postdoc C: Oh .
Professor B: Um {disfmarker}
PhD D: Crunchy frogs .
PhD F: Chocolate adaptation .
Professor B: Actually {disfmarker} {vocalsound} actually kind of careful cuz I have a strong allergy to nuts , so I have to sort of figure out one without th
PhD A: That w Oh , yeah , they {disfmarker} they might .
Professor B: It 's hard to {disfmarker} hard to say .
PhD A: Maybe those ? They 're so {disfmarker} I don't know .
Professor B: I don't know . Um {disfmarker}
PhD A: This is {disfmarker} You know , this is a different kind of speech ,
Professor B: Well {disfmarker}
PhD H: Take {disfmarker} take several .
PhD A: looking at chocolates , deciding {disfmarker}
PhD F: Mmm .
PhD A: you know , it 's another style .
Professor B: Yeah . I may {disfmarker} I may hold off .
PhD F: Mmm .
Professor B: But if I was {disfmarker} eh , but maybe I 'll get some later . Thanks .
PhD F: Mmm .
Professor B: Well {disfmarker} well , why don't we {disfmarker} ? He {disfmarker} he 's worried about a ticket . Why don't we do a simultaneous one ?
PhD A: OK .
Professor B: Simultaneous one ?
Postdoc C: OK .
Grad E: OK .
PhD F: Mmm .
PhD A: And you laughed at me , too , f the first time I said that .
Professor B: OK .
Grad E: Remember to read the transcript number , please .
PhD F: Right .
PhD H: OK .
Professor B: I have to what ?
PhD D: Oops .
PhD H: Yeah .
PhD A: You laughed at me , too , the first time I sa said {disfmarker}
Professor B: I did ,
PhD A: You really shouldn't , uh , te
Professor B: and now I love it so much .
Grad E: OK , everyone ready ?
PhD A: You have to sort of , um {disfmarker} Jose , if you haven't done this , you have to plug your ears while you 're t talking
Professor B: W wait {disfmarker} wait a minute {disfmarker} wait a minute . W we want {disfmarker} we want {disfmarker}
PhD A: so that you don't get confused , I guess .
Professor B: we want it synchronized .
PhD A: Yeah . Oh , you 've done this one before ?
Postdoc C: Hey , you 've done this before . Haven't you ?
PhD H: Yeah .
PhD D: That 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: Together ?
Postdoc C: You 've read {pause} digits together with us , haven't you {disfmarker} I mean , at the same time ?
PhD A: I 'm not {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} Oh , and you haven't done this either .
Professor B: OK .
Postdoc C: Oh , you haven't !
PhD H: No .
Postdoc C: Oh , OK .
PhD D: Oh , yeah .
PhD A: I the first time is {pause} traumatic ,
Professor B: We
PhD A: but {disfmarker}
Professor B: Y {vocalsound} Yeah , bu
Postdoc C: Oh , and the groupings are important ,
PhD H: Mmm .
Postdoc C: so yo you 're supposed to pause between the groupings .
PhD H: The grouping .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD H: Yeah .
Professor B: OK . So , uh {disfmarker}
PhD F: You mean that the {disfmarker} the grouping is supposed to be synchronized ?
Professor B: No , no .
Postdoc C: No .
Grad E: Yeah , sure .
PhD F: No ?
PhD A: That 'd be good .
Professor B: Synchronized digits .
Postdoc C: No .
PhD F: No ?
PhD A: We - we 'll give everybody the same sheet
PhD F: It 's like a {disfmarker} like a Greek {disfmarker} like a Greek choir ?
PhD A: but they say different {disfmarker}
PhD F: You know ?
Professor B: Yes .
Grad E: Hey , what a good idea .
PhD F: Like {disfmarker}
Grad E: We could do the same sheet for everyone .
PhD F: Yeah .
Grad E: Have them all read them at once .
PhD A: Well , different digits
PhD D: Eh {disfmarker}
PhD A: but same groupings .
Grad E: Or {disfmarker} or just same digits .
PhD A: So they would all be {disfmarker} Yeah .
Postdoc C: Yeah . That 'd be good .
Grad E: See if anyone notices .
Professor B: There 's so many possibilities .
Postdoc C: And then {disfmarker} then we can sing them next time .
Professor B: Uh . OK , why don't we go ? Uh , one two three {disfmarker} Go !
Postdoc C: OK . Mmm !
Professor B: And Andreas has the last word .
Grad E: Did you read it twice or what ?
PhD A: He 's try No , he 's trying to get good recognition performance .
Postdoc C: He had the h
PhD H: Yeah .
Postdoc C: He had the {disfmarker} the long form .
PhD H: Yeah .
Grad E: And we 're off .
PhD F: No . | |
doc_129 | Grad C: Now can you give me the uh {pause} remote T ?
Professor D: OK , so Eva , co uh {disfmarker} could you read your numbers ?
Grad A: Go ahead and read . OK .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad C: Alright .
Professor D: Yeah , let 's get started . Um {disfmarker} Hopefully Nancy will come , if not , she won't .
Grad B: Uh , Robert , do you uh have any way to turn off your uh screensaver on there so that it 's not going off every {disfmarker} uh , it seems to have about at two minute {disfmarker}
Grad C: Yeah , I 've {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} it 's not that I didn't try .
Grad B: OK .
Grad C: and um I {disfmarker} I told it to stay on forever and ever , but if it 's not plugged in it just doesn't obey my commands .
Grad B: OK .
Grad C: It has a mind .
Grad B: Got it .
Grad C: But I I just {disfmarker} You know , sort of keep on wiggling .
Undergrad E: Wants to conserve .
Grad B: Yeah , OK .
Grad C: But uh {disfmarker} we 'll just be m m working on it at intensity so it doesn't happen . We 'll see . Should we plunge right into it ?
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad C: So , would you like to {disfmarker}
Professor D: I think so .
Grad C: So what I 've tried to do here is list all the decision nodes that we have identified on this {pause} side . Commented and {disfmarker} what they 're about and sort of {disfmarker} the properties we may um give them . And here are the uh {disfmarker} tasks to be implemented via our data collection . So all of these tasks {disfmarker} The reading is out of these tasks more or less imply that the user wants to go there , sometime or the other . And analogously for example , here we have our EVA um {disfmarker} intention . And these are the data tasks where w we can assume the person would like to enter , view or just approach the thing . Analogously the same on the object information we can see that , you know , we have sort of created these tasks before we came up with our decision nodes so there 's a lot of things where we have no analogous tasks , and {pause} that may or may not be a problem . We can change the tasks slightly if we feel that we should have data for e sort of for every decision node so {disfmarker} trying to im um {disfmarker} implant the intention of going to a place now , going to a place later on the same tour , or trying to plant the intention of going sometime on the next tour , or the next day or whenever .
Professor D: Right , right .
Grad C: But I think that might be overdoing it a little .
Professor D: So {disfmarker} Yeah . So let me pop up a level . And uh s s make sure that we 're all oriented the same . So What we 're gonna do today is two related things . Uh one of them is to work on the semantics of the belief - net which is going to be the main inference engine for thi the system uh making decisions . And decisions are going to turn out to be parameter choices for calls on other modules . so f the natural language understanding thing is uh , we think gonna only have to choose parameters , but You know , a fairly large set of parameters . So to do that , we need to do two things . One of which is figure out what all the choices are , which we 've done a fair amount . Then we need to figure out what influences its choices and finally we have to do some technical work on the actual belief relations and presumably estimates of the probabilities and stuff . But we aren't gonna do the probability stuff today . Technical stuff we 'll do {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} another day . Probably next week . But we are gonna worry about all the decisions and the things that pert that contribute to them . And we 're also , sort of uh in the same process , going to work with Fey on what there should be in the dialogues . So One of the s steps that 's coming up real soon is to actually get subjects uh {disfmarker} in here , and have them actually record like this . Uh record dialogues more or less . And {disfmarker} depending on what Fey sort of provokes them to say , we 'll get information on different things .
Grad C: Well how people phrase different intentions more or less ,
Professor D: So {disfmarker} Fo - v yeah people with the {disfmarker} phrase them
Grad C: huh ?
Professor D: and so {disfmarker} Uh for , you know , Keith and people worrying about what constructions people use , uh {disfmarker} we have some i we have some ways to affect that by the way the dialogues go . So what Robert kindly did , is to lay out a table of the kinds of uh {pause} things that {disfmarker} that might come up , and , the kinds of decisions . So the uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} on the left are decision nodes , and discreet values . So if {disfmarker} if we 're right , you can get by with um just this middle column worth of decisions , and it 's not all that many , and it 's perfectly feasible technically to build belief - nets that will do that . And he has a handout .
Grad C: Yeah . Maybe it was too fast plunging in there , because j we have two updates .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad C: Um you can look at this if you want , these are what our subject 's going to have to fill out . Any comments I can {disfmarker} can still be made and the changes will be put in correspondingly .
Undergrad E: m {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yes .
Grad C: Let me summarize in two sentences , mainly for Eva 's benefit , who probably has not heard about the data collection , at all .
Grad A: OK .
Grad C: Or have you heard about it ?
Grad A: Not that much you didn't .
Grad C: No . OK . We were gonna put this in front of people . They give us some information on themselves .
Grad A: OK .
Grad C: Then {disfmarker} then they will read uh {disfmarker} a task where lots of German words are sort of thrown in between . And um {disfmarker} and they have to read isolated proper names And these change {disfmarker}
Professor D: S I don't see a release
Grad C: No , this is not the release form . This is the speaker information form .
Professor D: Got it . OK , fine . OK .
Grad C: The release form is over there in that box .
Professor D: Alright , fair enough .
Grad C: And um {disfmarker} And then they gonna have to f um um choose from one of these tasks , which are listed here . They {disfmarker} they pick a couple , say three {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} uh six as a matter of fact . Six different things they sort of think they would do if they were in Heidelberg or traveling someplace {disfmarker} and um {disfmarker} and they have a map .
Grad B: Hmm .
Grad C: Like this . Very sketchy , simplified map . And they can take notes on that map . And then they call this computer system that works perfectly , and understands everything .
Grad A: OK .
Grad C: And um {disfmarker}
Grad B: This is a fictional system obviously ,
Grad C: The comp Yeah , the computer system sits right in front of you ,
Grad B: huh .
Grad C: that 's Fey .
Undergrad E: I 've {disfmarker} I understand everything .
Professor D: And she does know everything .
Undergrad E: Yes I do .
Grad C: And she has a way of making this machine talk . So she can copy sentences into a window , or type really fast and this machine will use speech synthesis to produce that . So if you ask " How do I get to the castle " then a m s several seconds later it 'll come out of here " In order to get to the castle you do {disfmarker} "
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad C: OK ? And um {disfmarker} And then after three tasks the system breaks down . And Fey comes on the phone as a human operator . And says " Sorry the system broke down but let 's continue . " And we sort of get the idea what people do when they s think they speak to a machine and what people say when they think they speak to a human , or know , or assume they speak to a human .
Grad A: OK . Huh .
Grad B: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad C: That 's the data collection . And um {disfmarker} And Fey has some thirty subjects lined up ? Something ?
Undergrad E: Yeah .
Grad C: And um {disfmarker} And they 're {disfmarker} r ready uh {disfmarker} to roll .
Undergrad E: And more and more every day .
Grad C: And we 're gonna start tomorrow at three ? four ? one ?
Undergrad E: Tomorrow , well we don't know for sure . Because we don't know whether that person is coming or not ,
Grad C: OK . Around four - ish .
Undergrad E: but {disfmarker}
Grad C: And um we 're still l looking for a room on the sixth floor because they stole away that conference room . Um {disfmarker} behind our backs . But {disfmarker}
Professor D: Well , there are these {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} oh , I see , we have to {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's tricky . We 'll {disfmarker} let 's {disfmarker} let {disfmarker} we 'll do that off - line , OK .
Grad C: Yeah , but I {disfmarker} i i it 's happening . David and {disfmarker} and Jane and {disfmarker} and Lila are working on that as we speak .
Professor D: OK .
Grad C: OK . That was the uh {disfmarker} the data collection in a nutshell . And um {disfmarker} I can report a {disfmarker} so I did this but I also tried to do this {disfmarker} so if I click on here , Isn't this wonderful ? we get to the uh {disfmarker} uh belief - net just focusing on {disfmarker} on the g Go - there node . uh {disfmarker} Analogously this would be sort of the reason node and the timing node and so forth .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: And what w what happened is that um design - wise I 'd sort of n noticed that we can {disfmarker} we still get a lot of errors from a lot of points to one of these sub Go - there User Go - there Situation nodes . So I came up with a couple of additional nodes here where um whether the user is thrifty or not , and what his budget is currently like , is going to result in some financial state of the user . How much will he {disfmarker} is he willing to spend ? Or can spend . Being the same at this {disfmarker} just the money available , which may influence us , whether he wants to go there if it is {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} charging tons of dollars for admission or its gonna g cost a lot of t e whatever . Twenty - two million to fly to International Space Station , you know . just {disfmarker} Not all people can do that .
Professor D: Right .
Grad C: So , and this actually turned out to be pretty key , because having specified sort of these {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} intermediate level Um and sort of noticing that everything that happens here {disfmarker} let 's go to our favorite endpoint one is again more or less {disfmarker} we have {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} then the situation nodes contributing to the {disfmarker} the endpoint situation node , which contributes to the endpoint and so forth . um {disfmarker} I can now sort of draw straight lines from these to here , meaning it g of course goes where the sub - S {disfmarker} everything that comes from situation , everything that comes from user goes with the sub - U , and whatever we specify for the so - called " Keith node " , or the discourse , what comes from the {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} parser , construction parser , um will contribute to the D and the ontology to the sub - O node . And um one just s sort of has to watch which {disfmarker} also final decision node so it doesn't make sense {disfmarker} t to figure out whether he wants to enter , view or approach an object if he never wants to go there in the first place . But this makes the design thing fairly simple . And um now all w that 's left to do then is the CPG 's , the conditional probabilities , for the likelihood of a person having enough money , actually wanting to go a place if it costs , you know this or that . And um {disfmarker} OK . and once um Bhaskara has finished his classwork that 's where we 're gonna end up doing . You get involved in that process too . And um {disfmarker} And for now uh the {disfmarker} the question is " How much of these decisions do we want to build in explicitly into our data collection ? " So {disfmarker} Um , one could {disfmarker} sort of {disfmarker} think of {disfmarker} you know we could call the z see or {disfmarker} you know , people who visit the zoo we could s call it " Visit the zoo tomorrow " , so we have an intention of seeing something , but not now {disfmarker} but later .
Professor D: Right . Yeah . Yeah , so {disfmarker} let 's s uh s see I th I think that from one point of view , Uh , um , all these places are the same , so that d d That , um {disfmarker} in terms of the linguistics and stuff , there may be a few different kinds of places , so I th i it seems to me that We ought to decide you know , what things are k are actually going to matter to us . And um , so the zoo , and the university and the castle , et cetera . Um are all big - ish things that um {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} have different parts to them , and one of them might be fine .
Grad C: Hmm . Hmm , hmm . Yeah {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the reason why we did it that way , as a {disfmarker} as a reminder , is uh {disfmarker} no person is gonna do all of them .
Professor D: And {disfmarker}
Grad C: They 're just gonna select u um , according to their preferences .
Professor D: Yeah , yeah .
Grad C: " Ah , yeah , I usually visit zoos , or I usually visit castles , or I usually {disfmarker} " And then you pick that one .
Professor D: Right , no no , but {disfmarker} but s th point is to {disfmarker} to y to {disfmarker} build a system that 's got everything in it that might happen you do one thing .
Undergrad E: They 're redundant .
Professor D: T to build a system that um {disfmarker} had the most data on a relatively confined set of things , you do something else . And the speech people , for example , are gonna do better if they {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} things come up uh {disfmarker} repeatedly . Now , of course , if everybody says exactly the same thing then it 's not interesting . So , all I 'm saying is i th there 's {disfmarker} there 's a kind of question of what we 're trying t to accomplish . and {disfmarker} I think my temptation for the data gathering would be to uh , you know {disfmarker} And each person is only gonna do it once , so you don't have to worry about them being bored , so if {disfmarker} if it 's one service , one luxury item , you know , one big - ish place , and so forth and so on , um {disfmarker} then my guess is that {disfmarker} that the data is going to be easier to handle . Now of course you have this I guess possible danger that somehow there 're certain constructions that people use uh when talking about a museum that they wouldn't talk about with a university and stuff , um {disfmarker} but I guess I 'm {disfmarker} I uh m my temptation is to go for simpler . You know , less variation . But I don't know what other people think about this in terms of {disfmarker}
Grad B: So I don't exactly understand {disfmarker}
Professor D: uh {disfmarker}
Grad B: like I I {disfmarker} I guess we 're trying to {disfmarker} limit the detail of our ontology or types of places that someone could go , right ? But who is it that has to care about this , or what component of the system ?
Professor D: Oh , well , uh {disfmarker} th I think there are two places where it comes up . One is uh {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} th these people who are gonna take this and {disfmarker} and try to do speech with it .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: uh {disfmarker} Lots of pronunciations of th of the same thing are going to give you better data than l you know , a few pronunciations of lots more things .
Grad B: OK .
Professor D: That 's one .
Grad B: So we would rather just ask {disfmarker} uh have a bunch of people talk about the zoo , uh and assume that that will {disfmarker} that the constructions that they use there will give us everything we need to know about these sort of zoo , castle , whatever type things , these bigger places .
Professor D: Bigger {disfmarker} Y yeah thi well this is a question for {disfmarker}
Grad B: And that way you get the speech data of people saying " zoo " over and over again or whatever too .
Professor D: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad B: OK .
Professor D: Yeah . So this is a question for you ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: and , you know , if we {disfmarker} if we do , and we probably will , actually try to uh build a prototype , uh probably we could get by with the prototype only handling a few of them anyway . So , Um {disfmarker}
Grad C: Yeah , the this was sort of {disfmarker} these are all different sort of activities . Um But I think y I {disfmarker} I got the point and I think I like it . We can do {disfmarker} put them in a more hierarchical fashion . So , " Go to place " and then give them a choice , you know either they 're the symphony type or opera type or the tourist site guide type or the nightclub disco type person and they say " yeah this is {disfmarker} on that " go to big - ish place " ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: this is what I would do . " And then we have the " Fix " thing , and then maybe " Do something the other day " thing , so . My question is {disfmarker} I guess , to some extent , we should {disfmarker} y we just have to try it out and see if it works . It would be challenging , in {disfmarker} in a sense , to try to make it so {disfmarker} so complex that they even really should schedule , or to plan it , uh , a more complex thing in terms of OK , you know , they should get the feeling that there are these s six things they have to do and they sh can be done maybe in two days .
Professor D: Well {disfmarker} yeah .
Grad C: So they make these decisions ,
Professor D: Well I think th th
Grad C: " Can I go there tomorrow ? "
Professor D: yeah .
Grad C: or {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} influences
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Yeah . Well , I think it 's easy enough to set that up if that 's your expectation . So , the uh system could say , " Well , uh we 'd like to {disfmarker} to set up your program for two days in Heidelberg , you know , let 's first think about all the things you might like to do . So there {disfmarker} th i i in {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} I th I {disfmarker} I 'm sure that if that 's what you did then they would start telling you about that , and then you could get into um various things about ordering , if you wanted .
Grad C: Mm - hmm . Yeah . Yeah , but I think this is part of the instructor 's job . And that can be done , sort of to say , " OK now we 've picked these six tasks . " " Now you have you can call the system and you have two days . "
Professor D: I 'm sorry .
Grad C: And th w
Professor D: No , we have to help {disfmarker} we have to decide . Fey will p carry out whatever we decide . But we have to decide you know , what is the appropriate scenario . That 's what we 're gonna talk about t yeah .
Grad C: Yep , yep .
PhD F: But these are two different scenarios entirely . I mean , one is a planner {disfmarker} The other , it kind of give you instructions on the spot
Grad C: Yeah , but th the {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} I 'm not really interested in sort of " Phase planning " capabilities . But it 's more the {disfmarker} how do people phrase these planning requests ? So are we gonna masquerade the system as this {disfmarker} as you said simple response system , " I have one question I get one response " , or should we allow for a certain level of complexity . And a I w think the data would be nicer if we get temporal references .
Professor D: Well , so Keith , what do you think ?
Grad B: Well , um it seems that {disfmarker} Yeah , I mean , off the top of my head it kinda seems like you would probably just want , you know , richer data , more complex stuff going on , people trying to do more complex sets of things . I mean {pause} you know , if our goal is to really sort of be able to handle a whole bunch of different stuff , then throwing harder situations at people will get them to do more linguistic {disfmarker} more interesting linguistic stuff . But I mean {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm not really sure Uh , because I don't fully understand like what our choices are of ways to do this here yet .
Grad C: I mean w we have tested this and a y have you heard {disfmarker} listen to the f first two or th as a matter of fact the second person is uh {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} was faced with exactly this kind of setup .
Grad B: I started to listen to one and it was just like , um , uh , sort of depressing .
Grad C: And {disfmarker}
Grad B: I thought I 'd just sort of listen to the beginning part and the person was just sort of reading off her script or something . And .
Grad C: Oh , OK . That was the first subject .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor D: First one wasn't very good .
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad B: So um , I {disfmarker}
Grad C: Um , it is {disfmarker} already with this it got pretty {disfmarker} with this setup and that particular subject it got pretty complex .
Undergrad E: Although {disfmarker}
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Maybe {disfmarker} I suggest we make some fine tuning of these , get {disfmarker} sort of {disfmarker} run through ten or so subjects
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: and then take a breather , and see whether we wanna make it more complex or not , depending on what {disfmarker} what sort of results we 're getting .
Grad B: Right . Yeah . It {disfmarker} In fact , um , I am just you know {disfmarker} today , next couple days gonna start really diving into this data . I 've basically looked at one of the files {disfmarker} you know one of these {disfmarker} l y y y you gave me those dozens of files and I looked at one of them which was about ten sentences , found fifteen , twenty different construction types that we would have to look for and so on and like , " alright , well , let 's start here . " Um . So I haven't really gone into the , you know {disfmarker} looked at all of the stuff that 's going on . So I don't really {disfmarker} Right , I mean , once I start doing that I 'll have more to say about this kind of thing .
Professor D: OK .
Grad C: And y and always {disfmarker}
Professor D: But well th but you did say something important , which is that um you can probably keep yourself fairly well occupied uh {disfmarker} with the simple cases for quite a while .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor D: Although , obviously th so {disfmarker} so that sa s does suggest that {disfmarker} Uh , now , I have looked at all the data , and it 's pre it 's actually at least to an amateur , quite redundant .
Grad B: Yeah , Yeah .
Professor D: That {disfmarker} that it was {disfmarker} it was very stylized , and quite a lot of people said more or less the same thing .
Grad B: I um {disfmarker} I did sort of scan it at first and noticed that , and then looked in detail at one of them .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad B: But yeah , yeah I noticed that , too .
Professor D: So , we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we wanna do more than that .
Grad C: And with this we 're getting more . No question .
Professor D: OK . Right . So {disfmarker}
Grad C: uh w do we wanna get going beyond more , which is sort of the {disfmarker}
Professor D: Well , OK , so let 's {disfmarker} let 's take {disfmarker} let 's I {disfmarker} I think your suggestion is good , which is we 'll do a b uh {disfmarker} a batch . OK . And , uh , Fey , How long is it gonna be till you have ten subjects ? Couple days ? Or thr f a A week ? Or {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} I don't have a feel for th
Undergrad E: Um {disfmarker} I can {disfmarker} Yeah , I mean I s I think can probably schedule ten people , uh , whenever .
Professor D: Well , it 's {disfmarker} it 's up to you , I mean I j I {disfmarker} uh e We don't have any huge time pressure . It 's just {disfmarker} when you have t
Undergrad E: How long will it be ?
Professor D: Yeah .
Undergrad E: Um {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would say maybe two weeks .
Professor D: Oh , OK . So let 's do this . Let 's plan next Monday , OK , to have a review of what we have so far .
Grad C: This means audio , but {disfmarker}
Professor D: and {disfmarker} Huh ?
Grad C: no transcriptions of course , yeah .
Professor D: No , we won't have the transcriptions , but what we should be able to do and I don't know if , Fey , if you will have time to do this , but it would be great if you could , um , not transcribe it all , but pick out uh , some stuff . I mean we could lis uh {disfmarker} just sit here and listen to it all . Are you gonna have the audio on the web site ? OK .
Grad C: Until we reach the gigabyte thing and David Johnson s ki kills me . And we 're gonna put it on the web site . Yeah .
Professor D: Oh , we could get {disfmarker} I mean , you can buy another disk for two hundred dollars , right ? I mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's not like {disfmarker} OK . So , we 'll take care of David Johnson .
Grad C: No , he {disfmarker} uh , he {disfmarker} he has been solving all our problems or {disfmarker} is wonderful ,
Professor D: OK .
Undergrad E: Take {disfmarker} care of him .
Professor D: OK .
Grad C: so s
Professor D: Alright . So we 'll buy a disk . But anyway , so , um , If you {disfmarker} if you can think of a way {disfmarker} to uh , point us to th to interesting things , sort of as you 're doing this or {disfmarker} or something uh , make your {disfmarker} make notes or something that {disfmarker} that this is , you know , something worth looking at . And other than that , yeah I guess we 'll just have to uh , listen {disfmarker} although I guess it 's only ten minutes each , right ? Roughly .
Undergrad E: Well , I guess . I 'm not sure how long it 's actually going to take .
Grad C: The reading task is a lot shorter . That was cut by fifty percent . And the reading , nobody 's interested in that except for the speech people .
Professor D: Right . No , we don't care about that at all .
Grad C: So . It 's actually like five minutes dialogue .
Professor D: I b My guess is it 's gonna be ten .
Grad C: Ten minutes is long .
Professor D: People {disfmarker} I understand , but people {disfmarker} people {disfmarker} you know uh {disfmarker}
Undergrad E: It feels like a long time
Grad C: Yeah .
Undergrad E: but .
Grad C: It feels like forever when you 're doing it ,
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad C: but then it turns out to be three minutes and forty five seconds .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor D: Could be . OK . I was thinking people would , you know , hesitate and {disfmarker} Whatever . Whatever it is we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll deal with it .
Grad C: Yeah , it 's not {disfmarker} And it 's fun .
Professor D: OK , so that 'll be {disfmarker} that 'll be {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on the web page .
Grad C: OK .
Professor D: That 's great . Um But anyway {disfmarker} yeah , so I think {disfmarker} it 's a good idea to start with the sort of relatively straight forward res just response system . And then if we want to uh {disfmarker} get them to start doing {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} multiple step planning with a whole bunch of things and then organize them an um tell them which things are near each other and {disfmarker} you know , any of that stuff . uh {disfmarker} You know , " Which things would you like to do Tuesday morning ? "
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor D: So yeah I {disfmarker} th that seems {disfmarker} pretty straight forward .
Undergrad E: But were you saying that {disfmarker}
Grad C: I need those back by the way .
Grad B: OK .
Professor D: OK .
Undergrad E: Yeah .
Grad C: That 's for {disfmarker}
Professor D: I 'm sorry , Fey , what ?
Undergrad E: That w maybe one thing we should do is go through this list and sort of select things that are categories and then o offer only one member of that category ?
Professor D: That 's what I was suggesting for the first round , yeah .
Undergrad E: OK .
Grad B: So rather than having zoo and castle .
Undergrad E: And then , I mean , they could be alternate versions of the same {disfmarker} If you wanted data on different constructions .
Professor D: They could , but i but i uh tha eh they c yeah , but {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}
Undergrad E: Like one person gets the version with the zoo as a choice , and the other person gets the {disfmarker}
Professor D: You could , but i but I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think in the short run , {disfmarker}
Grad C: And no , th the per the person don't get it . I mean , this is why we did it , because when we gave them just three tasks for w part - A and three tasks for part - B a
Professor D: Right . Yeah .
Undergrad E: Well no , they could still choose . They just wouldn't be able to choose both zoo and say , touring the castle .
Grad C: Exactly . This is limiting the choices , but yeah . Right . OK , sorry . But um I {disfmarker} I think this approach will very well work , but the person was able to look at it and say " OK , This is what I would actually do . "
Undergrad E: Yeah .
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor D: OK .
Grad C: OK .
Undergrad E: He was vicious .
Grad C: OK , we gotta {disfmarker} we gotta disallow uh {disfmarker} traveling to zoos and uh castles at the same time , sort of {disfmarker}
Undergrad E: I mean there {disfmarker} they are significantly different , but .
Grad C: But no , they 're {disfmarker} I mean they 're sort of {disfmarker} this is where tour becomes {disfmarker} you know tourists maybe a bit different
Undergrad E: Yeah , I guess so .
Grad C: and , um , these are just places where you {disfmarker} you enter um , much like here .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad C: But we can uh {disfmarker}
Professor D: Yeah , in fact if y if y if you use the right verb for each in common , like at you know , " attend a theater , symphony or opera " is {disfmarker} is a group , and " tour the university , castle or zoo " ,
Grad C: mm - hmm Yeah .
Professor D: all of these d do have this kind of " tour " um {disfmarker} aspect about the way you would go to them . And uh , the movie theater is probably also uh {disfmarker} e is a " attend " et cetera .
Grad C: Attend , yeah .
Professor D: So it may turn out to be not so many different kinds of things ,
Grad C: Hmm , mm - hmm .
Professor D: and then , what one would expect is that {disfmarker} that the sentence types would {disfmarker} uh their responses would tend to be grouped according to the kind of activity , you would expect .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: But I mean i it seem that um {disfmarker} there is a difference between going {disfmarker} to see something , and things like " exchange money " or " dine out "
Professor D: Oh , absolutely . Yeah .
PhD F: uh {disfmarker} @ @ function , yeah .
Grad C: Yeah , this is where {disfmarker} yeah {disfmarker} th the function stuff is definitely different and the getting information or g stuff {disfmarker} yeah . OK . But this is open . So since people gonna still pick something , we we 're not gonna get any significant amount of redundancy . And for reasons , we don't want it , really , in that sense . And um we would be ultimately more interested in getting all the possible ways of people asking , oh , for different things with {disfmarker} or with a computer . And so if you can think of any other sort of high level tasks a tourist may do just always {disfmarker} just m mail them to us and we 'll sneak them into the collection . We 're not gonna do much statistical stuff with it .
Professor D: We don't have enough .
Grad C: No . But it seems like since we {disfmarker} since we are getting towards uh subject {disfmarker} uh fifty subjects and if we can keep it up um to a {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} sort of five four - ish per week rate , we may even reach the one hundred before Fey t takes off to Chicago .
Undergrad E: That means that one hundred people have to be interested .
Grad B: Good luck .
Undergrad E: Yeah .
Professor D: Well , um , these are all f people off campus s from campus so far ,
Undergrad E: Yeah .
Professor D: right ?
Undergrad E: Yeah .
Professor D: So we {disfmarker} yeah we don't know how many we can get next door at the {disfmarker} uh shelter for example .
Grad B: Hmm .
Professor D: Uh for ten bucks , probably quite a few .
Grad B: Yeah . That 's right .
Professor D: Yeah . So , alright , so let 's go {disfmarker} let 's go back then , to the {disfmarker} the chart with all the decisions and stuff , and see how we 're doing .
Grad C: Yep .
Professor D: Do {disfmarker} do people think that , you know this is {disfmarker} is gonna {disfmarker} um cover what we need , or should we be thinking about more ?
Grad C: Okay , in terms of decision nodes ? I mean , Go - there is {disfmarker} is a yes or no .
Professor D: Yep .
Grad C: Right ?
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Yep .
Grad C: I 'm also interested in th in this " property " uh line here , so if you look at {disfmarker} sorry , look at that um , timing was um {disfmarker} I have these three . Do we need a final differentiation there ? Now , later on the same tour , sometimes on the next tour .
Grad B: What 's this idea of " next tour " ? I mean {disfmarker}
Grad C: It 's sort of next day , so you 're doing something now and you have planned to do these three four things ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: and you can do something immediately ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: you could sort of tag it on to that tour
Grad B: Or {disfmarker} OK .
Grad C: or you can say this is something I would do s I wanna do sometime l in my life , basically .
Grad B: OK . OK . So {disfmarker} so this tour is sort of just like th the idea of current s round of {disfmarker} of touristness or whatever ,
Professor D: Right .
Grad B: OK .
Professor D: Yeah . Yeah , probably between stops back at the hotel .
Grad B: OK . Got it .
Professor D: I mean if you {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you wanted precise about it , uh you know ,
Grad B: Got it .
Professor D: uh {disfmarker} and I think that 's the way tourists do organize their lives .
Grad B: Sure , sure , sure .
Professor D: You know , " OK , we 'll go back to the hotel and then we 'll go off
Grad B: OK .
Professor D: and {disfmarker} "
PhD F: So all tours {disfmarker} b a tour happens only within one day ?
Professor D: Yes .
Grad B: OK .
Professor D: It {disfmarker}
PhD F: So the next tour will be tomorrow ?
Professor D: Right . For this .
Grad B: OK . Just to be totally clear . OK .
Grad C: Well , my visit to Prague there were some nights where I never went back to the hotel , so whether that counts as a two - day tour or not we 'll have to {vocalsound} think .
Grad B: You just spend the whole time at U Fleku or something ,
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor D: I {disfmarker} w we will {disfmarker} we will not ask you more .
Grad B: ri
Undergrad E: Right .
PhD F: Right .
Undergrad E: That 's enough .
Grad C: I don't know . What is the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the English co uh um cognate if you want , for " Sankt Nimmerlandstag " ?
Grad B: Keine Ahnung
Grad C: Sort of " We 'll do it on {disfmarker} when you say on that d day it means it 'll never happen .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad B: OK .
Professor D: Right .
Grad C: Do you have an expression ? Probably you sh
Grad B: Not that I know of actually .
Grad C: Yeah , when hell {disfmarker} Yep , we 'll do it when hell freezes over .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad C: So maybe that should be another {vocalsound} property in there .
PhD F: Right .
Professor D: Yeah . Yeah .
Undergrad E: Never .
Professor D: No .
Grad C: OK . Um , the reason why {disfmarker} why do we go there in the first place IE uh {disfmarker} it 's either uh {disfmarker} for sightseeing , for meeting people , for running errands , or doing business . Entertainment is a good one in there , I think . I agree .
Grad B: So , business is supposed to uh , be sort of {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} like professional type stuff , right , or something like that ?
Grad C: Yep .
Grad B: OK . Um .
Grad C: I mean {disfmarker} this w this is uh an old uh Johno thing . He sort of had it in there . " Who is the {disfmarker} the tour is the person ? " So it might be a tourist ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: it might be a business man who 's using the system , who wants to sort of go to some {disfmarker}
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor D: Yeah , or {disfmarker} or both .
Grad B: Yeah . Yeah , I mean like for example my {disfmarker} my father is about to travel to Prague .
Grad C: Yep .
Grad B: He 'll be there for two weeks . He is going to uh {disfmarker} He 's there to teach a course at the business school but he also is touring around and so he may have some mixture of these things .
Grad C: Yep .
Professor D: Mmm .
Grad C: Yep .
Professor D: Sure . Right .
Grad C: He would {disfmarker}
PhD F: What ab What do you have in mind in terms of um {disfmarker} socializing ? What kind of activities ?
Grad C: Eh , just meeting people , basically . " I want to meet someone somewhere " , which be puts a very heavy constraint on the " EVA "
PhD F: Oh {disfmarker}
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad C: you know , because then if you 're meeting somebody at the town hall , you 're not entering it usually , you 're just {disfmarker} want to approach it .
Grad B: So {disfmarker} I mean , does this capture , like , where do you put {disfmarker} " Exchange money " is an errand , right ? But what about uh {disfmarker}
Grad C: Yep .
Professor D: Mm - hmm
Grad B: So , like " Go to a movie " is now entertainment , " Dine out " is {disfmarker}
PhD F: Socializing , I guess .
Professor D: No , I I well , I dunno . Let {disfmarker} Let {disfmarker} well , we 'll put it somewhere ,
Grad B: So I mean {disfmarker} Right .
Professor D: but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} I would say that if " Dine out " is a special c uh {disfmarker} if you 're doing it for that purpose then it 's entertainment .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor D: And {disfmarker} we 'll also as y as you 'll s further along we 'll get into business about " Well , you 're {disfmarker} you know {disfmarker} this is going over a meal time , do you wanna stop for a meal or pick up food or something ? "
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: And that 's different . That 's {disfmarker} that 's sort of part of th that 's not a destination reason , that 's sort of " en passant , " right .
Grad B: Right .
Grad C: That goes with the " energy depletion " function , blech .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor D: Right , yeah .
Grad C: OK , " endpoint " .
Grad B: " Tourist needs food , badly "
Professor D: Right .
Grad C: " Endpoint " is pretty clear . Um , " mode " , uh , I have found three , " drive there " , " walk there " uh {disfmarker} or " be driven " , which means bus , taxi , BART .
Professor D: OK .
Grad C: Yeah . Yep .
Professor D: Obviously taxis are very different than buses , but on the other hand the system doesn't have any public transport {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} the planner system doesn't have any public transport in it yet .
Grad C: So this granularity would suffice , I think w if we say the person probably , based on the utterance we on the situation we can conclude wants to drive there , walk there , or use some other form of transportation .
Grad B: H How much of Heidelberg can you get around by public transport ? I mean in terms of the interesting bits . There 's lots of bits where you don't really I 've only ev was there ten years ago , for a day , so I don't remember , but . I mean , like the {disfmarker} sort of the tourist - y bits {disfmarker}
Professor D: Mm - Well ,
Grad C: Everywhere .
Grad B: is it like {disfmarker}
Professor D: you can't get to the Philosophers ' Way very well ,
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor D: but , I mean there are hikes that you can't get to , but {disfmarker}
Grad B: OK .
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor D: but I think other things you can , if I remember right .
Grad A: So is like " biking there " {disfmarker} part of like " driving there " ,
Grad C: Yeah , um we actually {disfmarker} biking should be {disfmarker} should be a separate point because we have a very strong bicycle planning component .
Grad A: or {disfmarker} ?
Grad C: So .
Professor D: Oh !
Undergrad E: Mmm g that 's good .
Grad C: Um .
Professor D: Put it in .
Grad C: Bicycles c should be in there , but , will we have bic I mean is this realistic ? I mean {disfmarker}
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor D: OK , we can leave it out , I guess .
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad C: We can {disfmarker} we can sort of uh , drive {disfmarker}
Grad B: I would {disfmarker} I would lump it with " walk " because hills matter .
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad B: Right ? You know . Things like that .
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor D: OK . Skateboards right , anyway .
PhD F: Right .
Professor D: Scooters ,
Grad C: Yep .
Professor D: right ?
Grad C: OK , " Length " is um , you wanna get this over with as fast as possible ,
Professor D: Alright .
Grad C: you wanna use some part of what {disfmarker} of the time you have . Um , they can . But we should just make a decision whether we feel that they want to use some substantial or some fraction of their time .
Professor D: Ye
Grad B: Hmm .
Grad C: You know , they wanna do it so badly that they are willing to spend uh {disfmarker} you know the necessary and plus time . And um {disfmarker} And y you know , if we feel that they wanna do nothing but that thing then , you know , we should point out that {disfmarker} to the planner , that they probably want to use all the time they have . So , stretch out that visit for that .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: Wow {disfmarker} It seems like this would be really hard to guess . I mean , on the part of the system . It seems like it {disfmarker} I mean you 're {disfmarker} you 're talking about rather than having the user decide this you 're supposed t we 're supposed to figure it out ?
Professor D: w well
Grad C: Th - the user can always s say it , but it 's just sort of we {disfmarker} we hand over these parameters if we make {disfmarker} if we have a feeling that they are important .
Grad B: Overrider
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: And that we can actually infer them to a significant de degree , or we ask .
Professor D: And {disfmarker}
Grad B: OK .
Professor D: And par yeah , and part of the system design is that if it looks to be important and you can't figure it out , then you ask .
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad B: OK .
Professor D: But hopefully you don't ask you know , a all these things all the time .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor D: Or {disfmarker} eh so , y but there 's th but definitely a back - off position to asking .
Grad B: Yeah . Right . Yeah .
Grad C: And if no {disfmarker} no part of the system ever comes up with the idea that this could be important , no planner is ever gonna ask for it .
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad C: y so {disfmarker} And I like the idea that , you know , sort of {disfmarker} Jerry pushed this idea from the very beginning , that it 's part of the understanding business to sort of make a good question of what 's s sort of important in this general picture , what you need t
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: If you wanna simulate it , for example , what parameters would you need for the simulation ? And , Timing , uh , uh , Length would definitely be part of it , " Costs " , " Little money , some money , lots of money " ?
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Actually , maybe uh F {comment} uh so , F Yeah , OK . Hmm ?
Grad B: You could say " some " in there .
PhD F: I must say that thi this one looks a bit strange to me . Um {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} It seems like appropriate if I go to Las Vegas . Well {disfmarker} but I decide k kind of how much money uh I 'm willing to lose . But a I as a tourist , I 'll just paying what 's {disfmarker} what 's more or less is required .
Professor D: Well , no . I think there are {disfmarker} there 're different things where you have a ch choice ,
Undergrad E: Mmm .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor D: for example , uh this t interacts with " do am I do oh are you willing to take a taxi ? "
Grad B: Dinner .
Professor D: Or uh , you know , if {disfmarker} if you 're going to the opera are you gonna l look for the best seats or the peanut gallery
PhD F: The best seat or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} Right .
Professor D: or , you know ,
Grad B: OK . So {disfmarker}
Professor D: whatever ? S so I think there are a variety of things in which um {disfmarker} Tour - tourists really do have different styles eating . Another one ,
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor D: you know .
Undergrad E: Right .
PhD F: Right , that 's true .
Grad C: The {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what my sort of sentiment is they 're {disfmarker} Well , I {disfmarker} I once had to write a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a charter , a carter for a {disfmarker} a student organization . And they had {disfmarker} wanted me to define what the quorum is going to be . And I looked at the other ones and they always said ten percent of the student body has to be present at their general meeting otherwise it 's not a {disfmarker} And I wrote in there " En - Enough " people have to be there . And it was hotly debated , but people agreed with me that everybody probably has a good feeling whether it was a farce , a joke , or whether there were enough people .
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad C: And if you go to Turkey , you will find when people go shopping , they will say " How much cheese do you want ? " and they say " Ah , enough . " And the {disfmarker} and the {disfmarker} this used all over the place . Because the person selling the cheese knows , you know , that person has two kids and you know , a husband that dislikes cheese , so this is enough .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: And um so the middle part is always sort of the {disfmarker} the golden way , right ? So you can s you can be really {disfmarker} make it as cheap as possible , or you can say " I want , er , you know , I don't care "
Grad B: Money is no object . Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Money is no object ,
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad C: or you say " I just want to spend enough " .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Or the sufficient , or the the appropriate amount .
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad C: But , Then again , this may turn out to be insufficient for our purposes . But well , this is my first guess ,
Grad B: I mean y Yeah .
Grad C: in much the same way as how {disfmarker} how d you know {disfmarker} should the route be ? Should it be the easiest route , even if it 's a b little bit longer ?
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: No steep inclinations ? Go the normal way ? Whatever that again means , er {disfmarker} or do you {disfmarker} does the person wanna rough it ?
Grad B: Mm - hmm . I mean {disfmarker} th so there 's a couple of different ways you can interpret these things right ? You know {disfmarker} " I want to go there and I don't care if it 's really hard . " Or if you 're an extreme sport person , you know . " I wanna go there and I insist on it being the hard way . "
Professor D: Right .
Grad B: Right ? you know , so I assume we 're going for the first interpretation ,
Undergrad E: Right .
Grad B: right ? Something like {disfmarker} I 'll go th I mean {disfmarker} I 'd li I dunno . It 's different from thing to {disfmarker}
Professor D: No , I think he was going for the second one ar actually .
Grad B: Yeah ? I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}
Professor D: Anyway , we 'll sort th yeah , we 'll sort that out .
Grad B: OK .
Professor D: Right .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor D: Absolutely .
Grad C: Well , this is all sort of um , top of my head .
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad C: No {disfmarker} no research behind that . Um {disfmarker} " Object information " , " Do I {disfmarker} do I wanna know anything about that object ? " is either true or false . And . if I care about it being open , accessible or not , I don't think there 's any middle ground there . Um , either I wanna know where it is or not , I wanna know about it 's history or not , or , um I wanna know about what it 's good for or not . Maybe one could put scales in there , too . So I wanna know a l lot about it .
Professor D: Yeah , now ob OK , I 'm sorry , go ahead , what were you gonna say ?
Grad C: One could put scales in there . So I wanna know a lot about the history , just a bit .
Professor D: Yeah , right well y i w if we {disfmarker} w right . So " object " becomes " entity " , right ?
Grad C: Yep , that 's true .
Professor D: Yeah , but we don't have to do it now .
Grad C: Yep . That was the wrong shortcut anyhow .
Professor D: And we think that 's it , interestingly enough , that um , you know , th or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or something very close to it is going to be uh {disfmarker} going to be enough . And {disfmarker}
Undergrad E: Still wrong .
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad B: OK .
Professor D: Alright , so um {disfmarker} So I think the order of things is that um , Robert will clean this up a little bit , although it looks pretty good . And {disfmarker}
Grad C: What , well this is the part that {disfmarker}
Professor D: Huh ?
Grad C: this is the part that needs the work .
Professor D: Right .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor D: Yeah , so {disfmarker} right , so {disfmarker} So , um In parallel , uh {disfmarker} three things are going to happen . Uh Robert and Eva and Bhaskara are gonna actually {disfmarker} build a belief - net that {disfmarker} that , um , has CPT 's and , you know , tries to infer this from various kinds of information . And Fey is going to start collecting data , and we 're gonna start thinking a about {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} what constructions we want to elicit . And then w go it may iterate on uh , further data collection to elicit {disfmarker}
Grad B: D Do you mean {disfmarker} Do you mean eliciting particular constructions ? Or do you mean like what kinds of things we want to get people talking about ? Semantically speaking , eh ?
Professor D: Well , yes .
Grad B: OK .
Professor D: Both . Uh , and {disfmarker} Though for us , constructions are primarily semantic , right ?
Grad B: Right . Sure .
Professor D: And {disfmarker} And so {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}
Grad B: I mean from my point of view I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm trying to care about the syntax , so you know {disfmarker}
Professor D: Well that too ,
Grad B: OK .
Professor D: but um {disfmarker} You know if th if we in {disfmarker} if we you know , make sure that we get them talking about temporal order .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor D: OK , that would be great and if th if they use prepositional phrases or subordinate clauses or whatever ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm . Right . OK .
Professor D: um {disfmarker} W You know , whatever form they use is fine .
Grad B: OK .
Professor D: But I {disfmarker} I think that probably we 're gonna try to look at it as you know , s what semantic constructions d do we {disfmarker} do we want them to uh do direc
Grad B: OK .
Professor D: you know , um , " Caused motion " , I don't know , something like that .
Grad B: OK .
Professor D: Uh But , Eh - uh this is actually a conversation you and I have to have about your thesis fantasies , and how all this fits into that .
Grad B: Got it . Yeah . Uh Yeah . OK .
Professor D: But uh {disfmarker}
Grad C: Well , I will tell you the German tourist data .
Grad B: OK .
Grad C: Because I have not been able to dig out all the stuff out of the m ta thirty D V
Grad B: OK .
Grad C: Um {disfmarker} If you {disfmarker}
Grad B: Is that roughly the equivalent of {disfmarker} of what I 've seen in English or is it {disfmarker}
Grad C: No , not at all .
Grad B: OK .
Grad C: Dialogues . SmartKom {disfmarker}
Grad B: OK .
Grad C: SmartKom {disfmarker} Human . Wizard of Oz .
Grad B: OK . Same {disfmarker} OK , that . Got it . Like what {disfmarker} What have I got now ? I mean I have uh what {disfmarker} what I 'm loo what I {disfmarker} Those files that you sent me are the user side of some interaction with Fey ?
Grad C: A little bit of data , I {disfmarker}
Grad B: Is that what it is ? Or {disfmarker} ?
Grad C: With nothing .
Grad B: Just talking into a box and not hearing anything back .
Professor D: No , no .
Grad C: Yep .
Grad B: OK .
Grad C: Yep . Some data I collected in a couple weeks for training recognizers and email way back when .
Grad B: OK . OK .
Grad C: Nothing to write home about .
Grad B: OK .
Grad C: And um {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} see this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} ontology node is probably something that I will try to expand . Once we have the full ontology API , what can we expect to get from the ontology ? And hopefully you can sort of also try to find out , you know , sooner or later in the course of the summer what we can expect to get from the discourse that might , you know {disfmarker} or the {disfmarker}
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: not the discourse , the utterance as it were , uh ,
Professor D: mm - hmm .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Right .
Grad C: in terms of uh {disfmarker}
Professor D: Right , but we 're not expecting Keith to actually build a parser .
Grad B: Right , Right .
Grad C: No , no , no , no , no .
Professor D: OK . We are expecting Johno to build a parser ,
Grad C: Uh , this is {disfmarker} Yes .
Grad B: By the end of the summer , too .
Professor D: but that 's a {disfmarker} No .
Grad C: No .
Professor D: No . Uh {disfmarker} He 's g he 's hoping to do this for his masters ' thesis s by a year from now .
Grad C: But it 's sort of {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}
Grad B: Right . Hmm . Still , pretty formidable actually .
Professor D: Eh - absolutely . Uh {disfmarker} limited . I mean , you know , the idea is {disfmarker} is ,
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor D: Well , the hope is that the parser itself is , uh , pretty robust . But it 's not popular {disfmarker} it 's only p only {disfmarker}
Grad B: Right , Right . Existence proof , you know . Set up the infrastructure ,
Professor D: Right . It 's only popula
Grad B: yeah .
Professor D: Right .
Grad B: Um sometime , I have to talk to some subset of the people in this group , at least about um what sort of constructions I 'm looking for . I mean , you know obviously like just again , looking at this one uh thing , you know , I saw y things from {disfmarker} sort of as general as argument structure constructions . Oh , you know , I have to do Verb Phrase . I have to do uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} unbounded dependencies , you know , which have a variety of constructions in {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} instantiate that . On the other hand I have to have , you know , there 's particular uh , fixed expressions , or semi - fixed expressions like " Get " plus path expression for , you know , " how d ho how do I get there ? " ,
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: " How do I get in ? " , " How do I get away ? "
Professor D: Right .
Grad B: and all that kind of stuff . Um , so there 's a variety of sort of different sorts of constructions
Professor D: Absolutely .
Grad B: and it {disfmarker} you know it 's {disfmarker} it 's sort of like anything goes . Like {disfmarker}
Professor D: OK , so this is {disfmarker} I think we 're gonna mainly work on with George .
Grad B: OK .
Professor D: OK , and hi let me f th {disfmarker} say what I think is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} so the idea is {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} first of all I misspoke when I said we thought you should do the constructions . Cause apparently for a linguist that means to do completely and perfectly . So what I {disfmarker} yeah , OK , {disfmarker} So what {disfmarker} what I meant was " Do a first cut at " .
Grad B: er {disfmarker} that 's what Yeah , yeah .
Professor D: OK , Because uh {disfmarker} we do wanna get them r u perfectly {disfmarker} but I think we 're gonna have to do a first cut at a lot of them to see how they interact .
Grad B: Of course . Right , exactly . Now it {disfmarker} w we talked about this before , right . And I {disfmarker} I me it would it would be completely out of the question to really do more than , say , like , oh I don't know , ten , over the summer ,
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad B: but uh , but you know obviously we need to get sort of a general view of what things look like , so yeah .
Professor D: Right . So the idea is going to be to do {disfmarker} sort of like Nancy did in some of the er these papers where you do enough of them so you can go from top to bottom {disfmarker} so you can do f you know , f f uh {disfmarker} have a complete story ov of s of some piece of dialogue .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: And that 's gonna be much more useful than having all of the clausal constructions and nothing else , or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or something like that .
Grad B: Yeah . Sure . Yeah .
Professor D: So that the {disfmarker} the trick is going to be t to take this and pick a {disfmarker} some sort of lattice of constructions ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: so some lexical and some phrasal , and {disfmarker} and , you know ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: whatever you need in order to uh , be able to then , uh , by hand , you know , explain , some fraction of the utterances .
Grad B: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor D: And so , exactly which ones will partly depend on your research interests and a bunch of other things .
Grad B: Mm - hmm . Sure . OK . But I mean in terms of the s th sort of level of uh {disfmarker} of analysis , you know , these don't necessarily have to be more complex than like the " Out of " construction in the BCP paper where it 's just like , you know , half a page on each one or something .
Professor D: Correct . Oh yeah {disfmarker} yeah . V a half a page is {disfmarker} is what we 'd like .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor D: And if {disfmarker} if there 's something that really requires a lot more than that then it does and we have to do it ,
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor D: but {disfmarker}
Grad B: For the first cut , that should be fine , yeah .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad C: We could sit down and think of sort of the {disfmarker} the ideal speaker utterances ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: and I mean two or three that follow each other , so , where we can also sort of , once we have everything up and running , show the tremendous , insane inferencing capabilities of our system .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: So , you know , as {disfmarker} as the SmartKom people have . This is sort of their standard demo dialogue , which is , you know , what the system survives and nothing but that .
Grad B: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Um , we could also sor sort of have the analogen of o our sample sentences , the ideal sentences where we have complete construction coverage and , sort of , they match nicely .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: So the {disfmarker} the " How do I get to X ? " ,
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad C: you know , that 's definitely gonna be uh , a major one .
Grad B: Yeah . That 's about six times in this little one here , so uh , {vocalsound} yeah .
Grad C: Yep .
Professor D: Right .
Grad C: " Where is X ? " might be another one which is not too complicated .
Grad B: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Grad C: And um " Tell me something about X . "
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad C: And hey , that 's {disfmarker} that 's already covering eighty percent of the system 's functionality .
Professor D: Ye - Right , but it 's not covering eighty percent of the intellectual interest .
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad C: No , we can w throw in an " Out of Film " construction if you want to , but {disfmarker}
Professor D: No , no , no . Well the {disfmarker} th the thing is there 's a lot that needs to be done to get this right .
Grad C: OK .
Professor D: OK , I th We done ?
Grad C: I have one bit of news .
Professor D: Good .
Grad C: Um , the action planner guy has wrote {disfmarker} has written a {disfmarker} a p lengthy {disfmarker} proposal on how he wants to do the action planning .
Professor D: Good .
Grad C: And I responded to him , also rather lengthy , how he should do the action planning . And {disfmarker}
Professor D: " Action planning " meaning " Discourse Modeling " ?
Grad C: Yes . And I tacked on a little paragraph about the fact that the whole world calls that module a dis disc dialogue manager ,
Professor D: Right .
Grad C: and wouldn't it make sense to do this here too ?
Professor D: Right .
Grad C: And also Rainer M Malaka is going to be visiting us shortly , most likely in the beginning of June .
Professor D: Uh - huh , I 'll be gone .
Grad C: Yeah . He - he 's just in a conference somewhere and he is just swinging through town .
Professor D: Sure , OK .
Grad C: And um {disfmarker} m making me incapable of going to NAACL , for which I had funding . But . No , no Pittsburg this year .
Grad B: Hmm .
Grad C: When is the uh Santa Barbara ?
Professor D: S
Grad C: Who is going to ? uh should a lot of people . That 's something I will {disfmarker} would {disfmarker} sort of enjoy .
Professor D: Probably should go . That was {disfmarker} that 's one you should probably go to .
Grad C: Yep .
Grad B: How much does it cost ?
Grad C: There 's
Grad B: I haven't planned to go .
Professor D: Uh , probably we can uh {disfmarker} pay for it .
Grad B: OK .
Professor D: Um a student rate shouldn't be very high . So , if we all decide it 's a good idea for you to go then you 'll {disfmarker} we 'll pay for it .
Grad B: Right . Sure .
Undergrad E: Then you can go .
Professor D: I mean I {disfmarker} I don't have a feeling one way or the other at the moment ,
Grad B: OK .
Professor D: but it probably is . OK , great .
Grad B: Thanks . | |
doc_130 | Project Manager: Okay , so now we are on the conceptual design meeting . {vocalsound} Uh y getting close to the last
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: is the penultim meeting . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: How was lunch ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm great . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Thanks {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Don't be sarcastic . {vocalsound} Mark . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So {vocalsound} um I will again do the secretary part uh we will have three presentation first um uh the industrial design , first Rama then Mark and then Sammy .
Marketing: Uh Rama .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ramaro .
Project Manager: Um um we have to take a decision on the control {disfmarker} remote control concepts and we have forty minutes .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: So what we want to {disfmarker} the decision we want to take on this meeting are on the um first on the component concept , so what kind of energy we use uh what kind of chip on print and one ki kind of case . And also on user interface concept uh what kind of interface we use and if there is some supplements . And at the end um Sammy will give um {vocalsound} a trend watching on what he's {disfmarker} he's been doing . It's {disfmarker} So , let's go . First with Rama . Participant two .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , participant two . Component .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yep . So we're to mainly design f mainly need to know which components we'll use for energy , and the material and interface . For energy there are maybe two or three possibilities . First one , we can use simple battery , or we can use {vocalsound} traditional solar cells or {disfmarker} mm and the material we can have plastic , rubber which is good for this R_S_A_
Marketing: Ah .
Industrial Designer: and then uh titanium , which can be {disfmarker} which have very good look an and then interface we're to use push buttons or liquid crystal d L_C_D_ display . And we can use some {gap} , moving {gap} kind of thing . So , as we discussed before , we need to {disfmarker} we would like to have some speech recognition s chip in our remote control . So this can be simple kind of programmable chip and {disfmarker} which can use microphone {gap} sensors . And we also want to look at our remote control , so . Still we are looking for possible uh technical uh specifications and how w easy we can do and within our pri range , like we're to {disfmarker} in our twelve Euros or around that . So we are looking for simple devices or simple technology to do the location of remote control in a room or in a house .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm , okay .
Industrial Designer: So uh we discussed an {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Excuse me . So we would like to propose battery instead of solar cells and it would be problematic uh to have enough energy with the solar cells
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and so we would like to just use simple battery . And also we want to go for titanium design instead of rubber or {disfmarker} and well the problem is with this design we found that we can't use double-curved shapes .
Marketing: What is a double-curved shape ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Like you can have two curves .
Marketing: Uh-huh .
User Interface: Why ?
Industrial Designer: Uh it's {disfmarker} I think in manufacturing I guess it's problematic . So , we want to go for simple push buttons because it need a simple chip and it's really lesser {disfmarker} uh re really less expensive compared to L_C_D_
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: which are uh which needs advanced chip technology and it's more expensive ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: since we want to put some other features such as speech recognition
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: we want to reduce uh cost .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um I want to know why it b uh just uh sorry but for the point before uh why not the rubber , if it is something that it seems to be light .
Marketing: The cost .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} And also like in {disfmarker} if you put a {gap} it's be difficult to do all the moulding of buttons and these things
Project Manager: Okay . You m titanium it's more uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: W we can use something like you know {vocalsound} the whole body's titanium but there are some rubber or I dunno some rubber parts like
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm like this ?
Project Manager: Yes so mm {disfmarker}
User Interface: to make it feel better and to you know {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Like in cell phones recently
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: these {disfmarker} you can {gap} with the rubber in four directions and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay . {gap}
Industrial Designer: yeah . But full assembly {disfmarker} We'll use mainly for titanium {gap}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: rubber is expensive
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: and also it's bit difficult to do all the shapes uh .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: And this push buttons
Project Manager: Uh yeah so
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} we we would like to use push buttons instead of L_C_D_s and so we want to mo I mean we're {gap} we want to put speech recognition so we want to reduce price on this technology and so that we can have enough space or enough money
Project Manager: Okay , s so simple button and uh speech recognition for the more complicated .
Industrial Designer: for {disfmarker} S S
Marketing: Speech {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Y yeah we have simple buttons and speech recognition technology ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Okay , and still we have {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so {disfmarker}
User Interface: mm can we still include the L_ L_S_D_ display ?
Marketing: L_C_D_ .
User Interface: L_C_D_ yeah L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: Uh l
Marketing: Seems not , it's either L_C_D_ or push-button .
Industrial Designer: So uh
User Interface: No ,
Industrial Designer: it's like a {disfmarker}
User Interface: it's not gonna be a t no touchable but still like a source of information or source for menus .
Marketing: Ah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah maybe maybe we can see depending on how we'll come up with our full design then if we have enough money or like for and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay , so let's try it , let's t
Industrial Designer: because the speech recognition technology will take at least five Euros or {gap} or something so we want to reduce the cost on display
Marketing: {gap} The L_C_D_ would {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: or this inter
Marketing: The display would only be display and not uh touch sensitive you mean .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah , it's it's not gonna be a touch pad , uh just a display for giving you information .
Marketing: Just uh for output , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Ok Yeah , that can we we can consider ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: because like it won't take much money I guess ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: because {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay , yep .
Project Manager: {gap} Mm .
Industrial Designer: You have any further questions or ?
Marketing: I guess no um . So the batteries uh are going to be very light .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , we're to go for li and now I think we have many options in the market so we can go for small nickel or alkaline batteries
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: for really light batteries and with uh good price .
Marketing: So this device on n that can be used for speech recognition could also be used for just uh the finding it basically , instead of clapping why not just be {disfmarker} ask .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's {disfmarker} then the the one thing we want to know is like because remote control is used for like in the household so it it it will be it {disfmarker} m maybe at least five , six people want to use it so so how to uh uh how to define our re speech recognition
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: whether we want to do s speaker independent or speaker dependent . If we're going for more speaker independent then it would be like again cumbersome and we need really m more technology
Project Manager: Okay ,
Industrial Designer: and so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: for the location . Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , if if everybody in the house n {gap} to locate then we're to go for some speaker independent technology or something .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . So let's now go to the {disfmarker} you don't have more question ?
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: No , it's okay .
Project Manager: Um mm thank you mm .
User Interface: No more questions .
Industrial Designer: Yep . Thank you .
Marketing: Puts less of constraint on what we can do
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm yeah , yeah .
Marketing: but
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: it's always like that . We have dreams and the {disfmarker} in the end we find out that it's not feasible . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , but {disfmarker} mm .
Industrial Designer: Oh . We have uh some limitations {gap} . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Anyway . {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: But still uh L_S_D_'s already quite nice ,
Marketing: L_C_D_ .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: L_C_ {vocalsound}
Marketing: L_S_D_ is something else ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: and it's quite nice as well . {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'm an artist , sorry . {vocalsound}
Marketing: So ,
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} yeah .
User Interface: So uh , that's not {disfmarker}
Marketing: go on uh artist . {vocalsound}
User Interface: I hope that's not too much .
Project Manager: Now let's talk about uh interface .
User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound} Uh participant number three .
Project Manager: Three .
Industrial Designer: Three .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh
Project Manager: Which one ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: mm mm uh have a look at this {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: no it's {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: {gap} Uh so the concept of the interface . Generally I developed quite a broad concept not only for the interface , but for possible instruction or user's manual and uh all the complex things that come together with your T_V_ and remote controls . So let's start with this . We got our perfect remote control with a lot of buttons
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: and uh we got explanation for every button
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and you can use your time and uh it will take i some days to learn all this buttons and um the L_C_D_ is going to be somewhere here and uh go back button , I don't know really where it is , maybe one of this buttons , and um power on and off mm I I don't remember
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so uh it it it should be maybe this button is power on and off ? Or no {gap} ? I can see nothing . So that's our concept . It's called the millennium remote control .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Let's change millenniums . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: maybe you can use {gap} in the end and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} doesn't make sense . This is very {vocalsound} ugly .
User Interface: Really ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I thought you like it . Ah okay
Marketing: Oh no ,
User Interface: just press the button , please uh . {vocalsound}
Marketing: too much concept .
Project Manager: No .
Marketing: Ah .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , we will not use this . We will not use this .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But instead of this I will devise {disfmarker} That's our concept .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ah , back today . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And it's got just few buttons , quite low looking , and all this stuff we already we already discussed .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . 'Kay .
User Interface: And uh what will people say ? They'll say it's perfect . Or what will say ? Uh they will say it's splendid . And uh e everyone will say I'll buy it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {gap} Do you think it can come in several colours ?
User Interface: And everyone's gonna be satisfied .
Marketing: Or did the {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I would make a backlight of the L_C_D_ screen with different colours .
Marketing: Um but not the case .
User Interface: Not the case .
Marketing: Uh the case would only be in that uh aluminium uh titanium stuff ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Because apparently from your survey people like colours , no ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , well they like uh something which is uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay , so let's remember there's a Nokia phone which changeable panels .
Marketing: Mm yeah , okay ,
User Interface: Do you like it ?
Marketing: so that would be the option . I don't know I don't have a Nokia phone ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But it's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: but I don't use that but again , uh I might {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's why you don't have it . That's why ,
Marketing: Yeah ,
User Interface: 'cause it's nasty . {vocalsound}
Marketing: bu but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But it would be expensive , no ? If you use colour L_C_D_ .
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: Uh instead of that maybe we can change the colour of the assembler .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Maybe we can just {disfmarker} if users want more colours they can pay more money to get this uh the shapes and they can have different assembly .
User Interface: Um , I am here .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So users have different {disfmarker} I mean they have their own interests , colour interests and so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So ?
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So we can just {disfmarker} if they want they can just pay another two Euro .
Project Manager: Uh-huh , okay , so
User Interface: 'Kay .
Project Manager: you you propose something with option i that increase the price if we {disfmarker} if you want o more colours {vocalsound} on L_C_D_ ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah yeah yes . If they want like uh {disfmarker} so that we can {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: Kind of upgradable uh {vocalsound} remote control .
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Wow , wow .
Industrial Designer: Just they'll get few more things and few more colours .
User Interface: Okay , what uh {disfmarker} there's one more decisi uh one more solution in fact , um {vocalsound} 'cause there are some some paints that can change colour according to where they are , like they can reflect different colours depending on what is around , like what colour is around , and depending on the temperature ,
Industrial Designer: Lights , yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: And thermodynamic also . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Like a chameleon .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah .
User Interface: We can make it in fact .
Project Manager: Yeah but that's maybe mo too much expensive , yeah .
User Interface: If if if the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: okay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: But uh it can be in uh maybe in an {disfmarker} a gradable version ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm ,
Project Manager: but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Because uh I think there are two kinds of people . Those for which the remote control is uh is to be uh something useful uh I'm going to talk about this later but {disfmarker} and those for which is something that that that uh is uh specific to them so it it's like a signature . My remote control is pink . Nobody else than me has a pink remote control .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} And that makes me special .
Project Manager: Okay
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and you think that we don't have to make to make them pay more because of {vocalsound} uh o or this is {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think I think they would be ready p ready to pay more for that .
Project Manager: Okay , so
Marketing: Those who wanted to have it pink .
Project Manager: so {vocalsound} i it's not uh a s base service
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: No mm no .
Project Manager: it's a {disfmarker}
User Interface: So ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: {gap} be an option ,
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: yeah .
Marketing: It might be optional , yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: But those people will be really few , no ? So like we can {gap} those {disfmarker}
Marketing: The the young people the young people want to be different from their friends .
Industrial Designer: Ah .
Marketing: Although similar but have something just slightly better . Pink {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So m so
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: maybe that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if that it's a selling point maybe it has to be the base .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah ,
Marketing: Mm . Yeah .
User Interface: yeah . But you know if you want to be different you just take your remote control with you all the time .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And you'll be different .
User Interface: {vocalsound} And it makes you different ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: you know ?
Marketing: You always have your remote .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh in the train uh , hello uh no . {vocalsound} Want to change my neighbour .
User Interface: Anyone has their remote controls here ?
Marketing: Oh , you don't ? {vocalsound} Yeah . You don't have your remo {vocalsound}
User Interface: No ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Wh you you know like for instance take the iPod . It's a kind of remote control . {vocalsound} Uh it's white
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and it's so white that you see it from any anywhere .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: It has this distinctive look and feel and look {gap} which people seems to like {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: just because it's {vocalsound} a colour that we don't usually see in a remote control . White .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Uh-huh , uh-huh . Could we integrate something into our remote control , something like light ?
Marketing: Seems important .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: That they can use it in darkness , like . Hand light ,
Marketing: Mm {gap} glow in the dark ,
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah
Marketing: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: maybe like the infrared like we can put some radium chips or something
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so that like {disfmarker} at least um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Iradium ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay . Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Ah sorry . Mm .
Industrial Designer: that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . So mm {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay . S well ,
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: let's go on maybe with the presentation .
Marketing: Yeah . Uh-huh , yeah sure . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: And um the remote control's going to be smart
Industrial Designer: Oh .
User Interface: but how smart should it be to not to complicate things too much ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I dunno
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: that's a question to you and to mm to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well so I heard that uh it seems that speech recognition is something that can be done uh so that's the smartness of the thing .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Currently we don't have guns with speech recognition or uh beer cans with speech recognition
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but we may have remote controls with speech recognition .
User Interface: Okay , okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I dunno . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm , that's a nice world . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} So just just just just think about it um .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} Thank you .
Marketing: Don't touch the remote .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: But {disfmarker} yeah . Are are you saying here that uh the remote controls should be aware of who is using it ? So for instance the young guy would not be able to use it because his father doesn't want .
User Interface: Uh yeah I just want to say it should be real smart .
Marketing: Like with some {disfmarker} Maybe fingerprint recognition or {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Voice recognition is quite tough . I say don't use it , and the control just looks .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: 'Cause I ordered jus To l to l lock it .
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} Mm .
Industrial Designer: Uh that {disfmarker} mm that could be feasible I guess , like {disfmarker} So since we have {disfmarker} we want to do some speaker dependent speech recognition uh so we can use {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay . So it could be smart in that way .
Industrial Designer: yeah . Yeah , yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm . Okay .
Marketing: But for instance th I I'm thinking about the other uh uh particularity that the the remote control could have . S since it it knows who is using it , it might also record the kind of uh channels you are u more often using and uh levels of volumes that you're more often uh {disfmarker} things like that
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah , sure .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: and provide you ways of using them , I dunno , somehow ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: I dunno , that might be expensive
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: but
Industrial Designer: Uh it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: that might also be a good sales pitch again .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} The remote that knows you . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Okay , thanks .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: My turn ?
Project Manager: yeah , Marketing Expert .
Marketing: {gap} Okay , it's alright .
Project Manager: Participant two ?
Industrial Designer: Four .
Project Manager: Four ,
Marketing: Four , I think .
Project Manager: sorry .
Marketing: Trend , yeah . No uh yes . Okay , so I'm going to talk about trends and um I hope this can help us to to understand l how we should design our remote control . So , next slide please . So first maybe just a small recap on {vocalsound} how how do we watch trends so it's not so uh simple you might think that it's easy but uh it's not so simple . Anyway these days uh the best uh source of information is the web as you know , so have to to go often on the web and look at uh what the others are doing , and ask real people who are using real remote controls every day uh or any other tool that is similar to a remote control which basically is a small device that people {gap} have with them , always , like a phone . We can we can use the phone as a as a good uh uh {vocalsound} example of where to in be inspired . Of course those tha d who are watching the trends are also {disfmarker} have also to be inspired because in fact they're not only watching the trends , they're inventing it , they're creating the trend . I hope I'm going to try to help you on that . This is more risky because you're not following the trend ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: you try to invent it , which means either you succeed and you make a lot of money or you don't and you're out of business . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So anyway uh next slide please . {vocalsound} Uh to be to be quick {vocalsound} there's a lot of words here but uh basically there are {disfmarker} uh in in the market of of remote controls there are three aspects that we should very {disfmarker} pay much attention to . The first one , which seems to be the most important one , is that it has to be fancy , it has to have a fancy look and feel . And uh interestingly this is the very most important thing . It has to be fancy . Strangely enough it's more important to be fancy than to be wi and now that's the second thing it has to be , it has to be technologically i innovative ,
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: it has to be new with some of uh new uh technology inside and uh and this is also uh more important than the last thing which we w may think that would have been the most important , which is that it should be easy to use and it should be easy to use as a remote control . So as you see uh {vocalsound} it first have to be very nice , s something that people are proud of uh uh that i uh they can be id identified with uh and and then uh something that um contains very novel stuff that they can talk about with their friends , huh , mine has this and not yours . And finally of course it has to be useful as a remote control but it seems that it's not so important that it's useful as a remote control . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Next slide please .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Uh and now in a more uh general uh uh broad way of seeing th uh the thing . If we look back and not uh look at only remote controls I think it's important to see that the trends are quite the same in many areas so {disfmarker} currently the the trends that we see in l in l big cities like Paris and Milan , well , it seems that this year things should have uh a fruit and vegetable uh way of {vocalsound} of look or feel
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound}
Marketing: or so . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And I think of course uh {vocalsound} i it applies to everything . That's the thing with trends . {vocalsound} It it can travel f from clothe to furniture {vocalsound} same idea .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Fruit and vegetable . Think fruit and vegetable . {vocalsound} And uh if we co we compare to last year , now it has to be spongy ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: What is spongy ?
Marketing: yeah . Well
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah
Marketing: this {vocalsound} so so I think uh uh i
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} kind of um maybe {disfmarker} {gap}
Marketing: When we were talking about rubber ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah it {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think uh the rubber aspect might be important because it's what is probably more feasible in terms of sponginess .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: S So maybe titanium it's not a good idea .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {gap} We need to think about {disfmarker} mm mm .
Marketing: Seems not , seems not .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} sorry Mark .
Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It seems to be {disfmarker}
Marketing: Think more of uh something in the colours of uh like fruit and vegetables and spongy ,
Industrial Designer: Fruit . Even shape ?
Marketing: as a {disfmarker} even in the shape it has to be more round and uh more uh uh look natural somehow . I mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} More {gap}
Project Manager: Mm-mm .
Industrial Designer: yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: And not those futuristic uh remote control with angles and uh and titanium like .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Mm .
Project Manager: Hmm . {vocalsound} You're old-fashioned .
Marketing: So that's what people seem to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah i I know it's quite far from what you thought
Project Manager: Sorry . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but that's that's fashion and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Okay that's all I have to say .
Project Manager: Mm you have questions ?
Industrial Designer: So these abilities are mainly ad addressed by young people ? Or it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: These {disfmarker} I'm sorry .
Industrial Designer: This {disfmarker} you you {gap} so did you {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , yeah we have people uh uh listening to the trends everywhere in the world , of course ,
Industrial Designer: Where ? Oh . Oh , okay , mm-hmm .
Marketing: as you know our company is quite big and uh so I'm just asking them what are the current trends according to them when they go in the stores and when they ask uh their uh friends
Industrial Designer: It's not from {disfmarker} mm . Mm-hmm . Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: that are also {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's more general trend
Marketing: well .
Industrial Designer: it's not particular to the remote control .
Marketing: No , it's not it's not {disfmarker} this this is very general , yeah . But it seems that trends travel across things .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Yeah .
Marketing: The {disfmarker} what we {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah but some materials n they're to be uh they're to be something like solid like they can't be really spongy
Marketing: Sure .
Industrial Designer: or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah yeah .
Marketing: We have to {disfmarker} I think we have to have the look of fruit and vegetables
Industrial Designer: yeah , yeah sponge , yeah yeah at least that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: but we still have to put our chips inside , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} of course .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah
Marketing: This is your problem .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: that {disfmarker} yeah yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} This is not mine . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , looking {disfmarker} yeah fruit . These things can be easily incorporated . We can have t colours or this shape
Marketing: Yeah , I think in the colours and in the uh the kind of material .
Industrial Designer: or at least {disfmarker}
Marketing: If if it's something like rubber made or {disfmarker} I think it it's also going to be good .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Okay ?
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No more question ? Okay .
Marketing: Yep . Thanks .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mm-hmm . Okay , so we will have uh next meeting in thirty minutes again . Um now you have to go straight on this individual action which i which are for Rama uh wil design ,
Industrial Designer: Look and feel de
Project Manager: um Mark the user interface design , and uh Sammy uh the product evaluation . {vocalsound} Uh you will work together uh on a new on on a prototype using modelling clay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Hmm . Hmm . Mm sounds interesting . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm um and I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} as always your personal coach will send you specific instruction .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Thanks . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So , can we highlight the specific features of our {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah you're right , you have to {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: yeah , so so we want the speech recogniser and we want some kind of buttons and we want some themes like fruits or vegetables ,
Project Manager: So
Industrial Designer: that's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: you say s
Industrial Designer: we want to follow general trend .
Marketing: Spongy .
Project Manager: S
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: do we agree on that ? Yeah . We have to .
Industrial Designer: So , do you think {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} No , we don't have to ,
User Interface: So we have to uh for {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No . {vocalsound}
Marketing: but seems it's the trend .
Industrial Designer: Hmm . Yeah .
Marketing: Again , as I said we can also try to make it , to create the trend .
User Interface: yeah so are we confident enough on creating trends ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So there's no {disfmarker} Well , that's {disfmarker} you t can try to convince us .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well , we can make it smell like fruit . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound} {gap} that's a good idea ,
Project Manager: Okay , {vocalsound} that's a good idea .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So titanium smell like fruit .
Marketing: I {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So what about location and these things , people are really interesting on those features ? Or they really like {disfmarker} They more want these fancy features
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} I think i
Industrial Designer: like {disfmarker}
Marketing: yeah i it's again in this uh what I said first it has to be fancy so I think if nobody else pro provides currently a remote control with that kind of stuff and if we can provide it I think it's a good sell for us
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Feature {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: because we have it
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: and others don't .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: It's fancy . Whether it's useful or not doesn't seem to be very important . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I I agree with uh this uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Now we have to decide on what kind of fanciness . Do we take titanium smelling like fruit , or do we make spongy uh fruity-like
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Uh we will try to explore these two options
Project Manager: Mm . Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Maybe you could explore the two option .
Industrial Designer: yeah yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm . Could we make a titanium shape ? I mean {gap} fruit-shaped .
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah at least like we can make banana or {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Don't you say that you cannot do double shape {disfmarker} uh curved shape {disfmarker}
User Interface: But {disfmarker} Doub double-curved .
Industrial Designer: yeah it's it's
Marketing: Mm . Seems to be {gap} .
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah that's a {disfmarker} we're to look for {gap}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay .
Industrial Designer: and and s we're to see the {disfmarker} whether rubber is expensive
User Interface: Okay , okay . In fact I just agreed to make uh to make the {disfmarker} like titanium panels on a whole rubber body .
Industrial Designer: and d Hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-mm . Okay , so
User Interface: Well , okay w we'll see .
Project Manager: you explore now that you're going to work together these these two .
User Interface: Yeah
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Or or spongy an yeah . {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Maybe we can have two different {gap} assembly also like one spongy and one kind of titanium .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {gap} we have only the plastic or the {disfmarker} the chippy {disfmarker} yeah fibre chips or {disfmarker}
User Interface: We'll see . We'll see .
Marketing: If you have time .
Project Manager: Mm . Yeah I don't think w I think we have to choose . If we choose uh titanium or if we choose spongy
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Project Manager: but uh it cannot be both .
User Interface: We'll see . I I really don't like this modelling clay 'cause you know it makes some {gap} for for
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} For creation .
User Interface: I dunno uh {disfmarker} yeah um
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: we'll look .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Ah you can pretend that it's uh titanium . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Even design . {vocalsound}
Marketing: You can paint it afterward {gap} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay , okay .
Marketing: No problem . We have a very large department of {vocalsound} paint .
Project Manager: Yeah , do don't worry , you you {vocalsound} you speak with {disfmarker} mm mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} You will do it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Alright , alright .
Project Manager: Okay . So explore a shape .
Industrial Designer: So still we want to keep L_C_D_ ? Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm I think it's what we say , that we have an uh an L_C_D_ with uh information .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Not uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: The thing is that uh if we want to have as he says {disfmarker} if we want to have uh a small number of buttons we need to have a kind of output that says currently what their actions are .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , then we can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: yeah , yeah , that {disfmarker} user friendly
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: That's the converse to having zillions of button
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: where each button does only one thing .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: and we just stick with two batteries so it's not any solar or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah yeah j yeah ,
Marketing: Classical , we stay classical in that we don't reinvent uh the wheel .
Industrial Designer: because {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Anyway it's very {disfmarker} in general I think people uh change T_V_ more often than batteries of their remote control .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So . {vocalsound} Because the trend goes faster than the life of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So it's {gap} very {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . So
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: are we {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , we're done .
Marketing: We're done .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . So see you in thirty minutes .
Industrial Designer: Yep . | |
doc_131 | Grad A: Hey , you 're not supposed to be drinking in here dude .
Grad D: OK .
Grad A: Do we have to read them that slowly ? OK . Sounded like a robot . Um , this is t
Grad C: OK .
Grad A: When you read the numbers it kind of reminded me of beat poetry .
Grad D: I tried to go for the EE Cummings sort of feeling , but {disfmarker}
Grad A: Three three six zero zero . Four two zero zero one seven . That 's what I think of when I think of beat poetry .
Grad C: Beat poetry .
Grad A: You ever seen " So I married an axe murderer " ?
Grad C: Uh parts of it .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: There 's a part wh there 's parts when he 's doing beat poetry .
Grad C: Oh yeah ?
Grad A: And he talks like that . That 's why I thi That uh probably is why I think of it that way .
Grad D: Hmm . No , I didn't see that movie . Who did {disfmarker} who made that ?
Grad A: Mike Meyers is the guy .
Grad D: Oh . OK .
Grad A: It - it 's his uh {disfmarker} it 's his cute romantic comedy . That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} That 's his cute romantic comedy , yeah . The other thing that 's real funny , I 'll spoil it for you . is when he 's {disfmarker} he works in a coffee shop , in San Francisco , and uh he 's sitting there on this couch and they bring him this massive cup of espresso , and he 's like " excuse me I ordered the large espresso ? "
Grad D: Uh . We 're having , {vocalsound} a tiramisu tasting contest this weekend .
Grad A: Wait {disfmarker} do are y So you 're trying to decide who 's the best taster of tiramisu ?
Grad D: No ? Um . There was a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a fierce argument that broke out over whose tiramisu might be the best and so we decided to have a contest where those people who claim to make good tiramisu make them ,
Grad A: Ah .
Grad D: and then we got a panel of impartial judges that will taste {disfmarker} do a blind taste {vocalsound} and then vote .
Grad A: Hmm .
Grad D: Should be fun .
Grad A: Seems like {disfmarker} Seems like you could put a s magic special ingredient in , so that everyone know which one was yours . Then , if you were to bribe them , you could uh {disfmarker}
Grad D: Mm - hmm . Well , I was thinking if um {disfmarker} y you guys have plans for Sunday ? We 're {disfmarker} we 're not {disfmarker} it 's probably going to be this Sunday , but um we 're sort of working with the weather here because we also want to combine it with some barbecue activity where we just fire it up and what {disfmarker} whoever brings whatever you know , can throw it on there . So only the tiramisu is free , nothing else .
Grad A: Well , I 'm going back to visit my parents this weekend , so , I 'll be out of town .
Grad D: So you 're going to the west Bay then ? No ,
Grad A: No , the South Bay ,
Grad D: south Bay ?
Grad A: yeah .
Grad D: South Bay .
Grad C: Well , I should be free , so .
Grad D: OK , I 'll let you know .
Grad C: OK .
Grad A: We are . Is Nancy s uh gonna show up ? Mmm . Wonder if these things ever emit a very , like , piercing screech right in your ear ?
Grad D: They are gonna get more comfortable headsets . They already ordered them . OK .
Grad C: Uh {disfmarker}
Grad D: Let 's get started . The uh {disfmarker} Should I go first , with the uh , um , data . Can I have the remote {vocalsound} control . Thank you . OK . So . On Friday we had our wizard test data test and um {vocalsound} these are some of the results . This was the introduction . I actually uh , even though Liz was uh kind enough to offer to be the first subject , I sort of felt that she knew too much , so I asked uh Litonya . just on the spur of the moment , and she was uh kind enough to uh serve as the first subject .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: So , this is what she saw as part of {disfmarker} as uh for instr introduction , this is what she had to read {pause} aloud . Uh , that was really difficult for her and uh {disfmarker}
Grad C: Because of l all the names , you mean ?
Grad D: The names and um this was the uh first three tasks she had to {disfmarker} to master after she called the system , and um then of course the system broke down , and those were the l uh uh I should say the system was supposed to break down and then um these were the remaining three tasks that she was going to solve , with a human {disfmarker} Um . There are {disfmarker} here are uh the results . Mmm . And I will not {disfmarker} We will skip the reading now . D Um . And um . The reading was five minutes , exactly . And now comes the {disfmarker} This is the phone - in phase of {disfmarker}
Grad C: Wait , can I {disfmarker} I have a question . So . So there 's no system , right ? Like , there was a wizard for both uh {disfmarker} both parts , is this right ?
Grad D: Yeah . It was bo it both times the same person .
Grad C: OK .
Grad D: One time , pretending to be a system , one time , to {disfmarker} pretending to be a human , which is actually not pretending .
Grad C: OK . And she didn't {disfmarker}
Grad D: I should {disfmarker}
Grad C: I mean . Well . Isn't this kind of obvious when it says " OK now you 're talking to a human " and then the human has the same voice ?
Grad D: No no no . We u Wait . OK , good question , but uh you {disfmarker} you just wait and see .
Grad C: OK .
Grad D: It 's {disfmarker} You 're gonna l learn . And um the wizard sometimes will not be audible , Because she was actually {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} there was some uh lapse in the um wireless , we have to move her closer .
Grad A: Is she mispronouncing " Anlage " ? Is it " Anlaga " or " Anlunga "
Grad D: They 're mispronouncing everything ,
Grad A: OK .
Grad D: but it 's {disfmarker} This is the system breaking down , actually . " Did I call Europe ? " So , this is it . Well , if we {disfmarker} we um
Professor B: So , are {disfmarker} are you trying to record this meeting ?
Grad D: There was a strange reflex . I have a headache . I 'm really sort of out of it . OK , the uh lessons learned . The reading needs to be shorter . Five minutes is just too long . Um , that was already anticipated by some people suggested that if we just have bullets here , they 're gonna not {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} subjects are probably not gonna {disfmarker} going to follow the order . And uh she did not .
Grad C: Really ?
Grad D: She {disfmarker} No .
Grad C: Oh , it 's surprising .
Grad D: She {disfmarker} she jumped around quite a bit .
Professor B: S so if you just number them " one " , " two " , " three " it 's
Grad D: Yeah , and make it sort of clear in the uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: OK . Right .
Grad D: Um . We need to {disfmarker} So that 's one thing . And we need a better introduction for the wizard . That is something that Fey actually thought of a {disfmarker} in the last second that sh the system should introduce itself , when it 's called .
Professor B: Mm - hmm . True .
Grad D: And um , um , another suggestion , by Liz , was that we uh , through subjects , switch the tasks . So when {disfmarker} when they have task - one with the computer , the next person should have task - one with a human , and so forth .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: So we get nice um data for that . Um , we have to refine the tasks more and more , which of course we haven't done at all , so far , in order to avoid this rephrasing , so where , even though w we don't tell the person " ask {pause} blah - blah - blah - blah - blah " they still try , or at least Litonya tried to um repeat as much of that text as possible .
Grad C: Say exactly what 's on there ? Yeah .
Grad D: And uh my suggestion is of course we {disfmarker} we keep the wizard , because I think she did a wonderful job ,
Professor B: Great .
Grad D: in the sense that she responded quite nicely to things that were not asked for , " How much is a t a bus ticket and a transfer " so this is gonna happen all the time , we d you can never be sure .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: Um . Johno pointed out that uh we have maybe a grammatical gender problem there with wizard .
Grad A: Yes .
Grad D: So um .
Grad A: I wasn't {disfmarker} wasn't sure whether wizard was the correct term for {pause} uh " not a man " .
Grad C: There 's no female equivalent of {disfmarker}
Grad D: But uh {disfmarker}
Grad A: Are you sure ?
Grad C: No , I don't know .
Professor B: Right .
Grad C: Not that I know of .
Grad D: Well , there is witch and warlock ,
Grad A: Yeah , that 's so @ @ .
Professor B: Right .
Grad C: Yeah , that 's what I was thinking , but {disfmarker}
Grad D: and uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: Right . Uh .
Grad D: OK . And um {disfmarker} So , some {disfmarker} some work needs to be done , but I think we can uh {disfmarker} And this , and {disfmarker} in case no {disfmarker} you hadn't seen it , this is what Litonya looked at during the uh {disfmarker} um while taking the {disfmarker} while partaking in the data collection .
Grad C: Ah .
Professor B: OK , great . So {pause} first of all , I agree that um we should hire Fey , and start paying her . Probably pay for the time she 's put in as well . Um , do you know exactly how to do that , or is uh Lila {disfmarker} I mean , you know what exactly do we do to {disfmarker} to put her on the payroll in some way ?
Grad D: I 'm completely clueless , but I 'm willing to learn .
Professor B: OK . Well , you 'll have to . Right . So anyway , um
Grad D: N
Professor B: So why don't you uh ask Lila and see what she says about you know exactly what we do for someone in th
Grad D: Student - type worker ,
Professor B: Well , yeah she 's un she 's not a {disfmarker} a student ,
Grad D: or {disfmarker} ?
Professor B: she just graduated but anyway .
Grad D: Hmm .
Professor B: So i if {disfmarker} Yeah , I agree , she sounded fine , she a actually was {pause} uh , more uh , present and stuff than {disfmarker} than she was in conversation , so she did a better job than I would have guessed from just talking to her .
Grad D: Yeah .
Professor B: So I think that 's great .
Grad D: This is sort of what I gave her , so this is for example h how to get to the student prison ,
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad D: and I didn't even spell it out here and in some cases I {disfmarker} I spelled it out a little bit um more thoroughly ,
Professor B: Right .
Grad D: this is the information on {disfmarker} on the low sunken castle , and the amphitheater that never came up , and um , so i if we give her even more um , instruments to work with I think the results are gonna be even better .
Professor B: Oh , yeah , and then of course as she does it she 'll {disfmarker} she 'll learn @ @ . So that 's great . Um {pause} And also if she 's willing to take on the job of organizing all those subjects and stuff that would be wonderful .
Grad D: Mmm .
Professor B: And , uh she 's {disfmarker} actually she 's going to graduate school in a kind of an experimental paradigm , so I think this is all just fine in terms of h her learning things she 's gonna need to know uh , to do her career .
Grad D: Mmm .
Professor B: So , I {disfmarker} my guess is she 'll be r r quite happy to take on that job . And , so {disfmarker}
Grad D: Yep . Yeah she {disfmarker} she didn't explicitly state that so .
Professor B: Great .
Grad D: And um I told her that we gonna um figure out a meeting time in the near future to refine the tasks and s look for the potential sources to find people . She also agrees that you know if it 's all just gonna be students the data is gonna be less valuable because of that so .
Professor B: Well , as I say there is this s set of people next door , it 's not hard to
Grad D: We 're already {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor B: uh {disfmarker}
Grad D: However , we may run into a problem with a reading task there . And um , we 'll see .
Professor B: Yeah . We could talk to the people who run it and um see if they have a way that they could easily uh tell people that there 's a task , pays ten bucks or something ,
Grad D: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor B: but um you have to be comfortable reading relatively complicated stuff . And {disfmarker} and there 'll probably be self - selection to some extent .
Grad D: Mmm . Yep .
Professor B: Uh , so that 's good . Um . Now , {pause} I signed us up for the Wednesday slot , and part of what we should do is this .
Grad D: OK .
Professor B: So , my idea on that was {pause} uh , partly we 'll talk about system stuff for the computer scientists , but partly I did want it to get the linguists involved in some of this issue about what the task is and all {disfmarker} um you know , what the dialogue is , and what 's going on linguistically , because to the extent that we can get them contributing , that will be good . So this issue about you know re - formulating things ,
Grad D: Yep .
Professor B: maybe we can get some of the linguists sufficiently interested that they 'll help us with it , uh , other linguists , if you 're a linguist , but in any case ,
Grad D: Yep .
Professor B: um , the linguistics students and stuff . So my idea on {disfmarker} on Wednesday is partly to uh {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} I mean , what you did today would {disfmarker} i is just fine . You just uh do " this is what we did , and here 's the {pause} thing , and here 's s some of the dialogue and {disfmarker} and so forth . " But then , the other thing of course is we should um give the computer scientists some idea of {disfmarker} of what 's going on with the system design , and where we think the belief - nets fit in and where the pieces are and stuff like that . Is {disfmarker} is this {pause} make sense to everybody ?
Grad D: Yep .
Professor B: Yeah . So , I don't {disfmarker} I don't think it 's worth a lot of work , particularly on your part , to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to make a big presentation . I don't think you should {disfmarker} you don't have to make any new {pause} uh PowerPoint or anything . I think we got plenty of stuff to talk about . And , then um just see how a discussion goes .
Grad D: Mm - hmm . Sounds good . The uh other two things is um we 've {disfmarker} can have Johno tell us a little about this
Professor B: Great .
Grad D: and we also have a l little bit on the interface , M - three - L enhancement , and then um that was it , I think .
Grad A: So , what I did for this {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} uh , a pedagogical belief - net because I was {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I took {disfmarker} I tried to conceptually do what you were talking about with the nodes that you could expand out {disfmarker} so what I did was I took {disfmarker} I made these dummy nodes called Trajector - In and Trajector - Out that would isolate the things related to the trajector .
Professor B: Yep .
Grad A: And then there were the things with the source and the path and the goal .
Professor B: Yep .
Grad A: And I separated them out . And then I um did similar things for our {disfmarker} our net to {disfmarker} uh with the context and the discourse and whatnot , um , so we could sort of isolate them or whatever in terms of the {disfmarker} the top layer .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: And then the bottom layer is just the Mode . So .
Professor B: So , let 's {disfmarker} let 's {disfmarker} Yeah , I don't understand it . Let 's go {disfmarker} Slide all the way up so we see what the p the p very bottom looks like , or is that it ?
Grad A: Yeah , there 's just one more node and it says " Mode " which is the decision between the {disfmarker}
Grad D: Yeah .
Professor B: OK , great . Alright .
Grad A: So basically all I did was I took the last {pause} belief - net
Professor B: So {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .
Grad A: and I grouped things according to what {disfmarker} how I thought they would fit in to uh image schemas that would be related . And the two that I came up with were Trajector - landmark and then Source - path - goal as initial ones .
Professor B: Yep . Mm - hmm .
Grad A: And then I said well , uh the trajector would be the person in this case probably .
Professor B: Right , yep .
Grad A: Um , you know , we have {disfmarker} we have the concept of what their intention was , whether they were trying to tour or do business or whatever ,
Professor B: Right .
Grad A: or they were hurried . That 's kind of related to that . And then um in terms of the source , the things {disfmarker} uh the only things that we had on there I believe were whether {disfmarker} Oh actually , I kind of , {disfmarker} I might have added these cuz I don't think we talked too much about the source in the old one but uh whether the {disfmarker} where I 'm currently at is a landmark might have a bearing on whether {disfmarker}
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: or the " landmark - iness " of where I 'm currently at . And " usefulness " is basi basically means is that an institutional facility like a town hall or something like that that 's not {disfmarker} something that you 'd visit for tourist 's {disfmarker} tourism 's sake or whatever . " Travel constraints " would be something like you know , maybe they said they can {disfmarker} they only wanna take a bus or something like that , right ? And then those are somewhat related to the path ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: so that would determine whether we 'd {disfmarker} could take {disfmarker} we would be telling them to go to the bus stop or versus walking there directly . Um , " Goal " . Similar things as the source except they also added whether the entity was closed and whether they have somehow marked that is was the final destination . Um , and then if you go up , Robert , Yeah , so {disfmarker} um , in terms of Context , what we had currently said was whether they were a businessman or a tourist of some other person . Um , Discourse was related to whether they had asked about open hours or whether they asked about where the entrance was or the admission fee , or something along those lines .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Uh , Prosody I don't really {disfmarker} I 'm not really sure what prosody means , in this context , so I just made up you know whether {disfmarker} whether what they say is {disfmarker} or h how they say it is {disfmarker} is that .
Professor B: Right , OK .
Grad A: Um , the Parse would be what verb they chose , and then maybe how they modified it , in the sense of whether they said " I need to get there quickly " or whatever .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: And um , in terms of World Knowledge , this would just basically be like opening and closing times of things , the time of day it is , and whatnot .
Grad D: What 's " tourbook " ?
Grad A: Tourbook ? That would be , I don't know , the " landmark - iness " of things ,
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: whether it 's in the tourbook or not .
Professor B: Ch - ch - ch - ch . Now . Alright , so I understand what 's {disfmarker} what you got . I don't yet understand {pause} how you would use it . So let me see if I can ask
Grad A: Well , this is not a working Bayes - net .
Professor B: a s Right . No , I understand that , but {disfmarker} but um So , what {disfmarker} Let 's slide back up again and see {disfmarker} start at the {disfmarker} at the bottom and Oop - bo - doop - boop - boop . Yeah . So , you could imagine w Uh , go ahead , you were about to go up there and point to something .
Grad A: Well I {disfmarker} OK , I just {disfmarker} Say what you were gonna say .
Professor B: Good , do it !
Grad A: OK .
Professor B: No no , go do it .
Grad A: Uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} No , I was gonna wait until {disfmarker}
Professor B: Oh , OK . So , so if you {disfmarker} if we made {disfmarker} if we wanted to make it into a {disfmarker} a real uh Bayes - net , that is , you know , with fill {disfmarker} you know , actually f uh , fill it @ @ in , then uh {disfmarker}
Grad A: So we 'd have to get rid of this and connect these things directly to the Mode .
Professor B: Well , I don't {disfmarker} That 's an issue . So , um {disfmarker}
Grad A: Cuz I don't understand how it would work otherwise .
Professor B: Well , here 's the problem . And {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} Bhaskara and I was talking about this a little earlier today {disfmarker} is , if we just do this , we could wind up with a huge uh , combinatoric input to the Mode thing . And uh {disfmarker}
Grad A: Well I {disfmarker} oh yeah , I unders I understand that , I just {disfmarker} uh it 's hard for me to imagine how he could get around that .
Professor B: Well , i But that 's what we have to do .
Grad A: OK .
Professor B: OK , so , so , uh . There {disfmarker} there are a variety of ways of doing it . Uh . Let me just mention something that I don't want to pursue today which is there are technical ways of doing it , uh I I slipped a paper to Bhaskara and {disfmarker} about Noisy - OR 's and Noisy - MAXes and there 're ways to uh sort of back off on the purity of your Bayes - net - edness .
Grad A: Mmm .
Professor B: Uh , so . If you co you could ima and I now I don't know that any of those actually apply in this case , but there is some technology you could try to apply .
Grad A: So it 's possible that we could do something like a summary node of some sort that {disfmarker} OK .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah . And , um So .
Grad A: So in that case , the sum we 'd have {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} I mean , these wouldn't be the summary nodes . We 'd have the summary nodes like where the things were {disfmarker} I guess maybe if thi if things were related to business or some other {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor B: So what I was gonna say is {disfmarker} is maybe a good at this point is to try to informally {disfmarker} I mean , not necessarily in th in this meeting , but to try to informally think about what the decision variables are . So , if you have some bottom line uh decision about which mode , you know , what are the most relevant things .
Grad A: Mmm .
Professor B: And the other trick , which is not a technical trick , it 's kind of a knowledge engineering trick , is to make the n {pause} each node sufficiently narrow that you don't get this combinatorics . So that if you decided that you could characterize the decision as a trade - off between three factors , whatever they may be , OK ? then you could say " Aha , let 's have these three factors " , OK ? and maybe a binary version f for each , or some relatively compact decision node just above the final one .
Grad A: Mmm .
Professor B: And then the question would be if {disfmarker} if those are the things that you care about , uh can you make a relatively compact way of getting from the various inputs to the things you care about . So that y so that , you know , you can sort of try to do a knowledge engineering thing
Grad A: OK .
Professor B: given that we 're not gonna screw with the technology and just always use uh sort of orthodox Bayes - nets , then we have a knowledge engineering little problem of how do we do that . Um and
Grad A: So what I kind of need to do is to take this one and the old one and merge them together ?
Professor B: " Eh - eh - eh . " Yeah .
Grad A: So that {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well , mmm , something . I mean , so uh , Robert has thought about this problem f for a long time , cuz he 's had these examples kicking around , so he may have some good intuition about you know , what are the crucial things .
Grad A: Mmm .
Professor B: and , um , I understand where this {disfmarker} the uh {disfmarker} this is a way of playing with this abs Source - path - goal trajector exp uh uh abstraction and {disfmarker} and sort of sh displaying it in a particular way .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor B: Uh , I don't think our friends uh on Wednesday are going to be able to {disfmarker} Well , maybe they will . Well , let me think about whether {disfmarker} whether I think we can present this to them or not . Um , Uh ,
Grad D: Well , I think this is still , I mean , ad - hoc . This is sort of th the second {vocalsound} version and I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} look at this maybe just as a , you know , a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} whatever , UML diagram or , you know , as just a uh screen shot , not really as a Bayes - net as John {disfmarker} Johno said .
Grad A: We could actually , y yeah draw it in a different way , in the sense that it would make it more abstract .
Grad D: Yeah . But the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the nice thing is that you know , it just is a {disfmarker} is a visual aid for thinking about these things which has comple clearly have to be specified m more carefully
Professor B: Alright , well , le let me think about this some more ,
Grad D: and uh
Professor B: and uh see if we can find a way to present this to this linguists group that {disfmarker} that is helpful to them .
Grad D: I mean , ultimately we {disfmarker} we may w w we regard this as sort of an exercise in {disfmarker} in thinking about the problem and maybe a first version of uh a module , if you wanna call it that , that you can ask , that you can give input and it it 'll uh throw the dice for you , uh throw the die for you , because um I integrated this into the existing SmartKom system in {disfmarker} in the same way as much the same way we can um sort of have this uh {disfmarker} this thing . Close this down . So if this is what M - three - L um will look like and what it 'll give us , um {disfmarker} And a very simple thing . We have an action that he wants to go from somewhere , which is some type of object , to someplace .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: And this {disfmarker} these uh {disfmarker} this changed now only um , um {disfmarker} It 's doing it twice now because it already did it once . Um , we 'll add some action type , which in this case is " Approach " and could be , you know , more refined uh in many ways .
Professor B: Mm - hmm . Good .
Grad D: Or we can uh have something where the uh goal is a public place and it will give us then of course an action type of the type " Enter " . So this is just based on this one {disfmarker} um , on this one feature , and that 's {disfmarker} that 's about all you can do . And so in the f if this pla if the object type um here is {disfmarker} is a m is a landmark , of course it 'll be um " Vista " . And um this is about as much as we can do if we don't w if we want to avoid uh uh a huge combinatorial explosion where we specify " OK , if it 's this and this but that is not the case " , and so forth , it just gets really really messy .
Professor B: OK , I 'm sorry . You 're {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker}
Grad D: Hmm ?
Professor B: It was much too quick for me . OK , so let me see if I understand what you 're saying . So , I {disfmarker} I do understand that uh you can take the M - three - L and add not {disfmarker} and it w and you need to do this , for sure , we have to add , you know , not too much about um object types and stuff , and what I think you did is add some rules of the style that are already there that say " If it 's of type " Landmark " , then you take {disfmarker} you 're gonna take a picture of it . "
Grad D: Exactly .
Professor B: F full stop , I mean , that 's what you do . Ev - every landmark you take a picture of ,
Grad D: Every public place you enter , and statue you want to go as near as possible .
Professor B: you enter {disfmarker} You approach . OK . Uh , and certainly you can add rules like that to the existing SmartKom system . And you just did , right ? OK .
Grad D: Yeah . And it {disfmarker} it would do us no good .
Professor B: Ah .
Grad D: That {disfmarker} Ultimately .
Professor B: Well . So , s well , and let 's think about this .
Grad D: W
Professor B: Um , that 's a {disfmarker} that 's another kind of baseline case , that 's another sort of thing " OK , here 's a {disfmarker} another kind of minimal uh way of tackling this " . Add extra properties , a deterministic rule for every property you have an action , " pppt ! " You do that . Um , then the question would be Uh Now , if that 's all you 're doing , then you can get the types from the ontology , OK ? because that 's all {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} all you 're using is this type {disfmarker} the types in the ontology and you 're done .
Grad D: Hmm ?
Professor B: Right ? So we don't {disfmarker} we don't use the discourse , we don't use the context , we don't do any of those things .
Grad D: No .
Professor B: Alright , but that 's {disfmarker} but that 's OK , and I mean it it 's again a kind of one minimal extension of the existing things . And that 's something the uh SmartKom people themselves would {disfmarker} they 'd say " Sure , that 's no problem {disfmarker} you know , no problem to add types to the ont " Right ?
Grad D: Yeah . No . And this is {disfmarker} just in order to exemplify what {disfmarker} what we can do very , very easily is , um we have this {disfmarker} this silly uh interface and we have the rules that are as banal as of we just saw , and we have our content .
Professor B: Hmm .
Grad D: Now , the content {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} whi which is sort of what {disfmarker} what we see here , which is sort of the Vista , Schema , Source , Path , Goal , whatever .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad D: This will um be um a job to find ways of writing down Image schema , X - schema , constructions , in some {disfmarker} some form , and have this be in a {disfmarker} in a {disfmarker} in the content , loosely called " Constructicon " . And the rules we want to throw away completely . And um {disfmarker} and here is exactly where what 's gonna be replaced with our Bayes - net , which is exactly getting the input feeding into here . This decides whether it 's an whether action {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the Enter , the Vista , or the whatever
Professor B: Uh , " approach " , you called it , I think this time .
Grad D: uh Approach um construction should be activated , IE just pasted in .
Professor B: That 's what you said {disfmarker} Yeah , that 's fine . Yeah , but {disfmarker} Right . But it 's not construction there , it 's action . Construction is a d is a different story .
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad A: Right . This is uh {disfmarker} so what we 'd be generating would be a reference to a semantic uh like parameters for the {disfmarker} for the X - schema ?
Professor B: For {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} Yes .
Grad A: OK .
Professor B: Yeah . So that {disfmarker} that uh i if you had the generalized " Go " X - schema and you wanted to specialize it to these three ones , then you would have to supply the parameters .
Grad A: Right .
Professor B: And then uh , although we haven't worried about this yet , you might wanna worry about something that would go to the GIS and use that to actually get you know , detailed route planning . So , you know , where do you do take a picture of it and stuff like that .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But that 's not {disfmarker} It 's not the immediate problem .
Grad A: Right .
Professor B: But , presumably that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that functionality 's there when {disfmarker} when we {disfmarker}
Grad A: So the immediate problem is just deciding w which {disfmarker}
Grad D: Aspects of the X - schema to add .
Professor B: Yeah , so the pro The immediate problem is {disfmarker} is back t t to what you were {disfmarker} what you are doing with the belief - net .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor B: You know , uh what are we going to use to make this decision {disfmarker}
Grad A: Right and then , once we 've made the decision , how do we put that into the content ?
Professor B: Yeah . Right . Right . Well , that {disfmarker} that actually is relatively easy in this case .
Grad A: OK .
Professor B: The harder problem is we decide what we want to use , how are we gonna get it ? And that the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} that 's the hardest problem . So , the hardest problem is how are you going to get this information from some combination of the {disfmarker} what the person says and the context and the ontology . The h So , I think that 's the hardest problem at the moment is {disfmarker} is
Grad A: OK .
Professor B: where are you gonna {disfmarker} how are you gonna g get this information . Um , and that 's {disfmarker} so , getting back to here , uh , we have a d a technical problem with the belief - nets that we {disfmarker} we don't want all the com
Grad A: There 's just too many factors right now .
Professor B: too many factors if we {disfmarker} if we allow them to just go combinatorially .
Grad A: Right .
Professor B: So we wanna think about which ones we really care about and what they really most depend on , and can we c you know , clean this {disfmarker} this up to the point where it {disfmarker}
Grad A: So what we really wanna do i cuz this is really just the three layer net , we wanna b make it {disfmarker} expand it out into more layers basically ?
Professor B: Right . We might . Uh , I mean that {disfmarker} that 's certainly one thing we can do . Uh , it 's true that the way you have this , a lot of the times you have {disfmarker} what you 're having is the values rather than the variable . So uh {disfmarker}
Grad A: Right . So instead of in instead it should really be {disfmarker} just be " intention " as a node instead of " intention business " or " intention tour " .
Professor B: OK ? So you {disfmarker} Yeah , right , and then it would have values , uh , " Tour " , " Business " , or uh " Hurried " .
Grad A: Right .
Professor B: But then {disfmarker} but i it still some knowledge design to do , about i how do you wanna break this up , what really matters .
Grad A: Right .
Professor B: I mean , it 's fine . You know , we have to {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's iterative . We 're gonna have to work with it some .
Grad A: I think what was going through my mind when I did it was someone could both have a business intention and a touring intention and the probabilities of both of them happening at the same time {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well , you {disfmarker} you could do that . And it 's perfectly OK {pause} to uh insist that {disfmarker} that , you know , th um , they add up to one , but that there 's uh {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that it doesn't have to be one zero zero .
Grad A: Mmm . OK .
Professor B: OK . So you could have the conditional p So the {disfmarker} each of these things is gonna be a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a probability . So whenever there 's a choice , uh {disfmarker} so like landmark - ness and usefulness ,
Grad A: Well , see I don't think those would be mutually {disfmarker}
Professor B: OK {disfmarker}
Grad A: it seems like something could both be {disfmarker}
Professor B: Absolutely right .
Grad A: OK .
Professor B: And so that you might want to then have those b Th - Then they may have to be separate . They may not be able to be values of the same variable .
Grad D: Object type , mm - hmm .
Professor B: So that 's {disfmarker} but again , this is {disfmarker} this is the sort of knowledge design you have to go through . Right . It 's {disfmarker} you know , it 's great {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is , you know , as one step toward uh {disfmarker} toward where we wanna go .
Grad D: Also it strikes me that we {disfmarker} we m may want to approach the point where we can sort of try to find a {disfmarker} uh , a specification for some interface , here that um takes the normal M - three - L , looks at it . Then we discussed in our pre - edu {disfmarker} EDU meeting um how to ask the ontology , what to ask the ontology um the fact that we can pretend we have one , make a dummy until we get the real one , and so um we {disfmarker} we may wanna decide we can do this from here , but we also could do it um you know if we have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a belief - net interface . So the belief - net takes as input , a vector , right ? of stuff . And it {disfmarker} Yeah . And um it Output is whatever , as well . But this information is just M - three - L , and then we want to look up some more stuff in the ontology and we want to look up some more stuff in the {disfmarker} maybe we want to ask the real world , maybe you want to look something up in the GRS , but also we definitely want to look up in the dialogue history um some s some stuff . Based on we {disfmarker} we have uh {disfmarker} I was just made some examples from the ontology and so we have for example some information there that the town hall is both a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a building and it has doors and stuff like this , but it is also an institution , so it has a mayor and so forth and so forth and we get relations out of it and once we have them , we can use that information to look in the dialogue history , " were any of these things that {disfmarker} that are part of the town hall as an institution mentioned ? " ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: " were any of these that make the town hall a building mentioned ? " ,
Grad C: Right .
Grad D: and so forth , and maybe draw some inferences on that . So this may be a {disfmarker} a sort of a process of two to three steps before we get our vector , that we feed into the belief - net ,
Professor B: Yeah . I think that 's {disfmarker} I think that 's exactly right .
Grad D: and then {disfmarker}
Professor B: There will be rules , but they aren't rules that come to final decisions , they 're rules that gather information for a decision process . Yeah ,
Grad D: Yeah .
Professor B: no I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's just fine . Uh , yeah . So they 'll {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} presumably there 'll be a thread or process or something that " Agent " , yeah , " Agent " , whatever you wan wanna say , yeah , that uh is rule - driven , and can {disfmarker} can uh {disfmarker} can do things like that . And um there 's an issue about whether there will be {disfmarker} that 'll be the same agent and the one that then goes off and uh carries out the decision , so it probably will . My guess is it 'll be the same basic agent that um can go off and get information , run it through a {disfmarker} a c this belief - net that {disfmarker} turn a crank in the belief - net , that 'll come out with s uh more {disfmarker} another vector , OK , which can then be uh applied at what we would call the simulation or action end . So you now know what you 're gonna do and that may actually involve getting more information . So on once you pull that out , it could be that that says " Ah ! Now that we know that we gonna go ask the ontology something else . " OK ? Now that we know that it 's a bus trip , OK ? we didn't {disfmarker} We didn't need to know beforehand , uh how long the bus trip takes or whatever , but {disfmarker} but now that we know that 's the way it 's coming out then we gotta go find out more .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So I think that 's OK .
Grad D: Mm - hmm . So this is actually , s if {disfmarker} if we were to build something that is um , and , uh , I had one more thing , the {disfmarker} it needs to do {disfmarker} Yeah . I think we {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I can come up with a {disfmarker} a code for a module that we call the " cognitive dispatcher " , which does nothing ,
Professor B: OK .
Grad D: but it looks of complect object trees and decides how {disfmarker} are there parts missing that need to be filled out , there 's {disfmarker} this is maybe something that this module can do , something that this module can do and then collect uh sub - objects and then recombine them and put them together . So maybe this is actually some {disfmarker} some useful tool that we can use to rewrite it , and uh get this part ,
Professor B: Oh , OK . Uh .
Grad D: then . Yeah .
Professor B: I confess , I 'm still not completely comfortable with the overall story . Um . I i This {disfmarker} this is not a complaint , this is a promise to do more work . So I 'm gonna hafta think about it some more . Um . In particular {disfmarker} see what we 'd like to do , and {disfmarker} and this has been implicit in the discussion , is to do this in such a way that you get a lot of re - use . So . What you 're trying to get out of this deep co cognitive linguistics is the fact that w if you know about source {disfmarker} source , paths and goals , and nnn {comment} all this sort of stuff , that a lot of this is the same , for different tasks . And that {disfmarker} uh there 's {disfmarker} there 's some {disfmarker} some important generalities that you 're getting , so that you don't take each and every one of these tasks and hafta re - do it . And I don't yet see how that goes . Alright .
Grad D: There 're no primitives upon which {pause} uh
Professor B: u u What are the primitives , and how do you break this {disfmarker}
Grad D: yeah .
Professor B: So I y I 'm just {disfmarker} just there saying eee {comment} well you {disfmarker} I know how to do any individual case , right ? but I don't yet {disfmarker} see what 's the really interesting question is can you use uh deep uh cognitive linguistics to {pause} get powerful generalizations . And
Grad D: Yep .
Professor B: um
Grad D: Maybe we sho should we a add then the " what 's this ? " domain ? N I mean , we have to " how do I get to X " . Then we also have the " what 's this ? " domain , where we get some slightly different {disfmarker}
Professor B: Could . Uh .
Grad C: Right .
Grad D: Um Johno , actually , does not allow us to call them " intentions " anymore .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad D: So he {disfmarker} he dislikes the term .
Professor B: Well , I {disfmarker} I don't like the term either , so I have n i uh i i y w i i It uh {disfmarker}
Grad D: But um , I 'm sure the " what 's this ? " questions also create some interesting X - schema aspects .
Professor B: Could be . I 'm not a {disfmarker} I 'm not op particularly opposed to adding that or any other task ,
Grad D: So .
Professor B: I mean , eventually we 're gonna want a whole range of them .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Uh ,
Grad C: That 's right .
Professor B: I 'm just saying that I 'm gonna hafta do some sort of first principles thinking about this . I just at the moment don't know .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: H No . Well , no the Bayes {disfmarker} the Bayes - nets {disfmarker} The Bayes - nets will be dec specific for each decision . But what I 'd like to be able to do is to have the way that you extract properties , that will go into different Bayes - nets , be the {disfmarker} uh general . So that if you have sources , you have trajectors and stuff like that , and there 's a language for talking about trajectors , you shouldn't have to do that differently for uh uh going to something , than for circling it , for uh telling someone else how to go there ,
Grad D: Getting out of {disfmarker}
Professor B: whatever it is . So that {disfmarker} that , the {disfmarker} the decision processes are gonna be different What you 'd really like of course is the same thing you 'd always like which is that you have um a kind of intermediate representation which looks the same o over a bunch of inputs and a bunch of outputs . So all sorts of different tasks {pause} and all sorts of different ways of expressing them use a lot of the same mechanism for pulling out what are the fundamental things going on . And that 's {disfmarker} that would be the really pretty result . And pushing it one step further , when you get to construction grammar and stuff , what you 'd like to be able to do is say you have this parser which is much fancier than the parser that comes with uh SmartKom , i that {disfmarker} that actually uses constructions and is able to tell from this construction that there 's uh something about the intent {disfmarker} you know , the actual what people wanna do or what they 're referring to and stuff , in independent of whether it {disfmarker} about {disfmarker} what is this or where is it or something , that you could tell from the construction , you could pull out deep semantic information which you 're gonna use in a general way . So that 's the {disfmarker} You might . You might . You might be able to {disfmarker} to uh say that this i this is the kind of construction in which the {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} Let 's say there 's a uh cont there {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the land the construction implies the there 's a con this thing is being viewed as a container . OK . So just from this local construction you know that you 're gonna hafta treat it as a container you might as well go off and get that information . And that may effect the way you process everything else . So if you say " how do I get into the castle " OK , then um {disfmarker} Or , you know , " what is there in the castle " or {disfmarker} so there 's all sorts of things you might ask that involve the castle as a container and you 'd like to have this orthogonal so that anytime the castle 's referred to as a container , you crank up the appropriate stuff . Independent of what the goal is , and independent of what the surrounding language is .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Alright , so that 's {disfmarker} that 's the {disfmarker} that 's the thesis level
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: uh {disfmarker}
Grad D: It 's unfortunate also that English has sort of got rid of most of its spatial adverbs because they 're really fancy then , in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} for these kinds of analysis . But uh .
Professor B: Well , you have prepositional phrases that {disfmarker}
Grad D: Yeah , but they 're {disfmarker} they 're easier for parsers .
Professor B: Right .
Grad D: Parsers can pick those up but {disfmarker} but the {disfmarker} with the spatial adverbs , they have a tough time . Because the {disfmarker} mean the semantics are very complex in that .
Professor B: Right .
Grad D: OK , yeah ? I had one more {pause} thing . I don't remember . I just forgot it again . No . Oh yeah , b But an architecture like this would also enable us maybe to {disfmarker} to throw this away and {disfmarker} and replace it with something else , or whatever , so that we have {disfmarker} so that this is sort of the representational formats we 're {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're talking about that are independent of the problem , that generalize over those problems , and are oh , t of a higher quality than an any actual whatever um belief - net , or " X " that we may use for the decision making , ultimately . Should be decoupled , yeah . OK .
Professor B: Right . So , are we gonna be meeting here from now on ? I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm happy to do that . We {disfmarker} we had talked about it , cuz you have th th the display and everything , that seems fine .
Grad D: Yeah , um , Liz also asks whether we 're gonna have presentations every time . I don't think we will need to do that but it 's {disfmarker}
Professor B: Right .
Grad D: so far I think it was nice as a visual aid for some things and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}
Professor B: Oh yeah . No I {disfmarker} I think it 's worth it to ass to meet here to bring this , and assume that something may come up that we wanna look at .
Grad D: Yeah .
Professor B: I mean . Why not .
Grad D: And um . Yeah , that was my {disfmarker}
Professor B: She was good . Litonya was good .
Grad D: Yeah ? The uh {disfmarker} um , she w she was definitely good in the sense that she {disfmarker} she showed us some of the weaknesses
Professor B: Right .
Grad D: and um also the um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the fact that she was a real subject you know , is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker}
Professor B: Right . Yeah , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} yeah and {disfmarker} and she took it seriously and stuff l No , it was great .
Grad D: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad D: So I think that um {disfmarker} I mean , w Looking {disfmarker} just looking at this data , listening to it , what can we get out of it in terms of our problem , for example , is , you know , she actually m said {disfmarker} you know , she never s just spoke about entering , she just wanted to get someplace , and she said for buying stuff . Nuh ? So this is definitely interesting , and {disfmarker}
Grad C: Yeah , right .
Grad D: Um , and in the other case , where she wanted to look at the stuff at the graffiti , also , of course , not in the sentence " How do you get there ? " was pretty standard . Nuh ? except that there was a nice anaphora , you know , for pointing at what she talked about before , and there she was talking about looking at pictures that are painted inside a wall on walls , so
Grad C: Right .
Grad D: Actually , you 'd need a lot of world knowledge . This would have been a classical um uh " Tango " , actually . Um , because graffiti is usually found on the outside and not on the inside ,
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad D: but OK . So the mistake {comment} would have make a mistake {disfmarker} the system would have made a mistake here .
Grad C: Yep .
Professor B: Click ? Alright . | |
doc_132 | PhD F: And we 're on .
Professor D: OK . Might wanna {vocalsound} close the door so that {disfmarker} Uh , Stephane will {disfmarker}
PhD F: I 'll get it .
Professor D: Yeah
PhD F: Hey Dave ? Could you go ahead and turn on , uh , Stephane 's {disfmarker}
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: So that 's the virtual Stephane over there .
PhD F: OK .
Professor G: Do you use a PC for recording ? Or {disfmarker}
PhD F: Uh , yeah , a Linux box . Yeah . It 's got , uh , like sixteen channels going into it .
Professor G: Uh - huh . Uh - huh . The quality is quite good ? Or {disfmarker} ?
PhD F: Mm - hmm . Yeah , so far , it 's been pretty good .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Yeah . So , uh , yeah {disfmarker} the suggestion was to have these guys start to {disfmarker}
PhD F: OK . Why don't you go ahead , Dave ?
Grad C: OK . Um , so , yeah , the {disfmarker} this past week I 've been main mainly occupied with , um , getting some results , u from the SRI system trained on this short Hub - five training set for the mean subtraction method . And , um , I ran some tests last night . But , um , c the results are suspicious . Um , it 's , um , {vocalsound} cuz they 're {disfmarker} the baseline results are worse than , um , Andreas {disfmarker} than results Andreas got previously . And {vocalsound} it could have something to do with , um {disfmarker}
PhD F: That 's on digits ?
Grad C: That 's on digits . It c it {disfmarker} it could h it could have something to do with , um , downsampling .
PhD F: Hmm .
Grad C: That 's {disfmarker} that 's worth looking into . Um , d and , um , ap ap apart from that , I guess the {disfmarker} the main thing I have t ta I have to talk is , um , where I 'm planning to go over the next week . Um . So I 've been working on integrating this mean subtraction approach into the SmartKom system . And there 's this question of , well , so , um , in my tests before with HTK I found it worked {disfmarker} it worked the best with about twelve seconds of data used to estimate the mean , but , we 'll often have less {comment} in the SmartKom system . Um . So I think we 'll use as much data as we have {pause} at a particular time , and we 'll {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we 'll concatenate utterances together , um , to get as much data as we possibly can from the user . But , {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} there 's a question of how to set up the models . So um , we could train the models . If we think twelve seconds is ideal we could train the models using twelve seconds to calculate the mean , to mean subtract the training data . Or we could , um , use some other amount . So {disfmarker} like I did an experiment where I , um , was using six seconds in test , um , but , for {disfmarker} I tried twelve seconds in train . And I tried , um , um , the same in train {disfmarker} I 'm a I tried six seconds in train . And six seconds in train {vocalsound} was about point three percent better . Um , and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um , it 's not clear to me yet whether that 's {vocalsound} something significant . So I wanna do some tests and , um , {vocalsound} actually make some plots of , um {disfmarker} for a particular amount of data and test what happens if you vary the amount of data in train .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Uh , Guenter , I don't know if you t {vocalsound} followed this stuff but this is , uh , {vocalsound} a uh , uh , long - term {disfmarker} long - term window F F Yeah . Yeah , he {disfmarker} you talked about it .
Professor G: Yeah , we {disfmarker} we spoke about it already ,
Professor D: Oh , OK . So you know what he 's doing .
Professor G: yeah .
Professor D: Alright .
Grad C: y s so I was {disfmarker} I actually ran the experiments mostly and I {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I was hoping to have the plots with me today . I just didn't get to it . But , um {disfmarker} yeah , I wou I would be curious about people 's feedback on this cuz I 'm {disfmarker} {vocalsound} @ @ {comment} I p I think there are some I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's kind of like a {disfmarker} a bit of a tricky engineering problem . I 'm trying to figure out what 's the optimal way to set this up . So , um , {vocalsound} I 'll try to make the plots and then put some postscript up on my {disfmarker} on my web page . And I 'll mention it in my status report if people wanna take a look .
Professor D: You could clarify something for me . You 're saying point three percent , you take a point three percent hit , {vocalsound} when the training and testing links are {disfmarker} don't match or something ?
PhD E: Hello .
Professor D: Is that what it is ?
Grad C: w Well , it c
Professor D: Or {disfmarker} ?
Grad C: I {disfmarker} I don't think it {disfmarker} it 's {vocalsound} just for any mismatch {vocalsound} you take a hit .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad C: i In some cases it might be u better to have a mismatch . Like I think I saw something like {disfmarker} like if you only have two seconds in test , or , um , maybe it was something like four seconds , you actually do a little better if you , um , {vocalsound} train on six seconds than if you train on four seconds .
Professor D: Yeah . Right .
Grad C: Um , but the case , uh {disfmarker} with the point three percent hit was {vocalsound} using six seconds in test , um , comparing train on twelve seconds {comment} versus train on six seconds .
Professor D: And which was worse ?
Grad C: The train on twelve seconds .
Professor D: OK . But point three percent , uh , w from what to what ? That 's point three percent {disfmarker}
Grad C: On {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the accuracies {vocalsound} w went from {disfmarker} it was something vaguely like ninety - five point six accuracy , um , improved to ninety - five point nine wh when I {disfmarker}
Professor D: So four point four to four point one .
Grad C: OK .
Professor D: So {disfmarker} yeah . So about a {disfmarker} about an eight percent , uh , seven or eight percent relative ?
Grad C: OK .
Professor D: Uh , Yeah . Well , I think in a p You know , if {disfmarker} if you were going for an evaluation system you 'd care . But if you were doing a live system that people were actually using nobody would notice . It 's {disfmarker} uh , I think the thing is to get something that 's practical , that {disfmarker} that you could really use .
Grad C: Huh . That 's {disfmarker} that 's interesting . Alright , the e uh , I see your point . I guess I was thinking of it as , um , {vocalsound} an interesting research problem . The {disfmarker} how to g I was thinking that for the ASRU paper we could have a section saying , {vocalsound} " For SmartKom , we {disfmarker} we d in {disfmarker} we tried this approach in , uh , {vocalsound} interactive system " , which I don't think has been done before .
Professor D: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Grad C: And {disfmarker} and then there was two research questions from that .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: And one is the k does it still work if you just use the past history ?
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Alright , and the other was this question of , um what I was just talking about now . So I guess that 's why I thought it was interesting .
Professor D: I mean , a short - time FFT {disfmarker} short - time cepstrum calculation , uh , mean {disfmarker} u mean calculation work that people have in commercial systems , they do this all the time . They {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} they calculate it from previous utterances and then use it , you know .
Grad C: Yeah , um .
Professor D: But {disfmarker} but , uh , as you say , there hasn't been that much with this long {disfmarker} long - time , uh , spectra work .
Grad C: Oh , o Oh , OK .
Professor D: Uh ,
Grad C: So that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's standard . Um {disfmarker}
Professor D: Yeah . Pretty common .
Grad C: OK .
Professor D: Yeah . Um , but , u uh , yes . No , it is interesting . And the other thing is , I mean , there 's two sides to these really small , uh , gradations in performance . Um , I mean , on the one hand in a practical system if something is , uh , four point four percent error , four point one percent error , people won't really tell {disfmarker} be able to tell the difference . On the other hand , when you 're doing , uh , research , you may , eh {disfmarker} you might find that the way that you build up a change from a ninety - five percent accurate system to a ninety - eight percent accurate system is through ten or twelve little things that you do that each are point three percent . So {disfmarker} so the {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I don't mean to say that they 're {disfmarker} they 're irrelevant . Uh , they are relevant . But , um , {vocalsound} i for a demo , you won't see it .
Grad C: Mm - hmm . Right . OK .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad C: And , um , Let 's {disfmarker} l let 's see . Um , OK . And then there 's um , another thing I wanna start looking at , um , {vocalsound} wi is , um , the choice of the analysis window length . So I 've just been using two seconds just because that 's what Carlos did before . Uh , I wrote to him asking about he chose the two seconds . And it seemed like he chose it a bit informally . So , um , with the {disfmarker} with the HTK set - up I should be able to do some experiments , on just varying that length , say between one and three seconds , in a few different reverberation conditions , um , say this room and also a few of the artificial impulse responses we have for reverberation , just , um , making some plots and seeing how they look . And , um , so , with the {disfmarker} the sampling rate I was using , one second or two seconds or four seconds is at a power of two um , number of samples and , um , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll jus f for the ones in between I guess I 'll just zero - pad .
Professor D: Mm - hmm . I guess one thing that might also be an issue , uh , cuz part of what you 're doing is you 're getting a {disfmarker} a spectrum over a bunch of different kinds of speech sounds . Um , and so it might matter how fast someone was talking for instance .
Grad C: Oh .
Professor D: You know , if you {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if there 's a lot of phones in one second maybe you 'll get a {disfmarker} a really good sampling of all these different things , and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and , uh , on the other hand if someone 's talking slowly maybe you 'd need more . So {disfmarker}
Grad C: Huh .
Professor D: I don't know if you have some samples of faster or slower speech but it might make a difference . I don't know .
Grad C: Uh , yeah , I don't {disfmarker} I don't think the TI - digits data that I have , um , {vocalsound} i is {disfmarker} would be appropriate for that .
Professor D: Yeah , probably not . Yeah .
Grad C: But what do you {disfmarker} What about if I w I fed it through some kind of , um , speech processing algorithm that changed the speech rate ?
Professor D: Yeah , but then you 'll have the degradation of {disfmarker} of , uh , whatever you do uh , added onto that . But maybe . Yeah , maybe if you get something that sounds {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} does a pretty job at that .
Grad C: Yeah . Well , uh , just if you think it 's worth looking into .
Professor D: You could imagine that .
Grad C: I mean , it {disfmarker} it is getting a little away from reverberation .
Professor D: Um , yeah . It 's just that you 're making a choice {disfmarker} uh , I was thinking more from the system aspect , if you 're making a choice for SmartKom , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that it might be that it 's {disfmarker} it c the optimal number could be different , depending on {disfmarker}
Grad C: Yeah . Right .
Professor D: Could be . I don't know .
Grad C: And {disfmarker} and th the third thing , um , uh , is , um , Barry explained LDA filtering to me yesterday . And so , um , Mike Shire in his thesis um , {vocalsound} did a {disfmarker} a series of experiments , um , training LDA filters in d on different conditions . And you were interested in having me repeat this for {disfmarker} for this mean subtraction approach ? Is {disfmarker} is that right ? Or for these long analysis windows , I guess , is the right way to put it .
Professor D: I guess , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the issue I was {disfmarker} the general issue I was bringing up was that if you 're {disfmarker} have a moving {disfmarker} {vocalsound} moving window , uh , a wa a {disfmarker} a set of weights times things that , uh , move along , shift along in time , that you have in fact a linear time invariant filter . And you just happened to have picked a particular one by setting all the weights to be equal . And so the issue is what are some other filters that you could use , uh , in that sense of " filter " ?
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: And , um , as I was saying , I think the simplest thing to do is not to train anything , but just to do some sort of , uh , uh , hamming or Hanning , uh , kind of window , kind of thing ,
Grad C: Right . Mm - hmm .
Professor D: just sort of to de - emphasize the jarring . So I think that would sort of be the first thing to do . But then , yeah , the LDA i uh , is interesting because it would sort of say well , suppose you actually trained this up to do the best you could by some criterion , what would the filter look like then ?
Grad C: Uh - huh .
Professor D: Uh , and , um , that 's sort of what we 're doing in this Aur - Aurora stuff . And , uh , it 's still not clear to me in the long run whether the best thing to do would be to do that or to have some stylized version of the filter that looks like these things you 've trained up , because you always have the problem that it 's trained up for one condition and it isn't quite right for another . So . uh {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's why {disfmarker} that 's why RASTA filter has actually ended up lasting a long time , people still using it quite a bit , because y you don't change it . So doesn't get any worse . Uh ,
Grad C: Huh .
Professor D: Anyway .
Grad C: o OK . So , um , a actually I was just thinking about what I was asking about earlier , wi which is about having {vocalsound} less than say twelve seconds in the SmartKom system to do the mean subtraction . You said in {vocalsound} systems where you use cepstral mean subtraction , they concatenate utterances and , {vocalsound} do you know how they address this issue of , um , testing versus training ? Can {disfmarker}
Professor D: Go ahead .
Professor G: I think what they do is they do it always on - line , I mean , that you just take what you have from the past , that you calculate the mean of this and subtract the mean .
Grad C: OK . Um {disfmarker}
Professor G: And then you can {disfmarker} yeah , you {disfmarker} you can increase your window whi while you get {disfmarker} while you are getting more samples .
Grad C: OK , um , and , um , so {disfmarker} so in tha in that case , wh what do they do when they 're t um , performing the cepstral mean subtraction on the training data ? So {disfmarker} because you 'd have hours and hours of training data . So do they cut it off and start over ? At intervals ? Or {disfmarker} ?
Professor G: So do you have {disfmarker} uh , you {disfmarker} you mean you have files which are hours of hours long ? Or {disfmarker} ?
Grad C: Oh , well , no . I guess not . But {disfmarker}
Professor G: Yeah . I mean , usually you have in the training set you have similar conditions , I mean , file lengths are , I guess the same order or in the same size as for test data , or aren't they ?
Grad C: OK . But it 's {disfmarker} OK . So if someone 's interacting with the system , though , uh , Morgan {disfmarker} uh , Morgan said that you would {vocalsound} tend to , um , {vocalsound} chain utterances together um , r
Professor D: Well , I think what I was s I thought what I was saying was that , um , at any given point you are gonna start off with what you had from before .
Grad C: Oh .
Professor D: From {disfmarker} and so if you 're splitting things up into utterances {disfmarker} So , for instance , in a dialogue system , {comment} where you 're gonna be asking , uh , you know , th for some information , there 's some initial th something . And , you know , the first time out you {disfmarker} you might have some general average . But you {disfmarker} you d you don't have very much information yet . But at {disfmarker} after they 've given one utterance you 've got something . You can compute your mean cepstra from that ,
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: and then can use it for the next thing that they say , uh , so that , you know , the performance should be better that second time . Um , and I think the heuristics of exactly how people handle that and how they handle their training I 'm sure vary from place to place . But I think the {disfmarker} ideally , it seems to me anyway , that you {disfmarker} you would wanna do the same thing in training as you do in test . But that 's {disfmarker} that 's just , uh , a prejudice . And I think anybody working on this with some particular task would experiment .
Grad C: Right . I g I guess the question I had was , um , amount of data e u was the amount of data that you 'd give it to , um {vocalsound} update this estimate . Because say you {disfmarker} if you have say five thousand utterances in your training set , {vocalsound} um , and you {disfmarker} you keep the mean from the last utterance , by the time it gets to the five thousandth utterance {disfmarker}
Professor D: No , but those are all different people with different {disfmarker} I mean , i in y So for instance , in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in a telephone task , these are different phone calls . So you don't wanna @ @ {comment} chain it together from a {disfmarker} from a different phone call .
Grad C: OK , so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so they would {disfmarker} g s
Professor D: So it 's within speaker , within phone call ,
Professor G: Yeah .
Professor D: if it 's a dialogue system , it 's within whatever this characteristic you 're trying to get rid of is expected to be consistent over ,
Professor G: Hmm .
Grad C: r and it {disfmarker}
Professor D: right ?
Grad C: right . OK , so you 'd {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} and so in training you would start over at {disfmarker} at every new phone call or at every {vocalsound} new speaker . Yeah ,
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad C: OK .
Professor D: Yeah . Now , {vocalsound} you know , maybe you 'd use something from the others just because at the beginning of a call you don't know anything , and so you might have some kind of general thing that 's your best guess to start with . But {disfmarker} So , s I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , a lot of these things are proprietary so we 're doing a little bit of guesswork here . I mean , what do comp what do people do who really face these problems in the field ? Well , they have companies and they don't tell other people exactly what they do .
Grad C: R right .
Professor D: But {disfmarker} but I mean , when you {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the hints that you get from what they {disfmarker} when they talk about it are that they do {disfmarker} they all do something like this .
Grad C: Right , OK . I see . Bec - because I {disfmarker} so this SmartKom task first off , it 's this TV and movie information system .
Professor D: Yeah , but you might have somebody who 's using it
Grad C: And {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor D: and then later you might have somebody else who 's using it .
Grad C: Yeah . Right . Right . I {disfmarker} I see .
Professor D: And so you 'd wanna set some {disfmarker}
Grad C: I was {disfmarker} I was about to say . So if {disfmarker} if you ask it " What {disfmarker} what movies are on TV tonight ? " ,
Professor D: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad C: if I look at my wristwatch when I say that it 's about two seconds . The way I currently have the mean subtraction , um , set up , the {disfmarker} the analysis window is two seconds .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad C: So what you just said , about what do you start with , raises a question of {vocalsound} what do I start with then ?
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: I guess it {disfmarker} because {disfmarker}
Professor D: Well , w OK , so in that situation , though , th maybe what 's a little different there , is I think you 're talking about {disfmarker} there 's only one {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it also depends {disfmarker} we 're getting a little off track here .
Grad C: Oh , right .
Professor D: r But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} Uh , there 's been some discussion about whether the work we 're doing in that project is gonna be for the kiosk or for the mobile or for both . And I think for this kind of discussion it matters . If it 's in the kiosk , then the physical situation is the same . It 's gonna {disfmarker} you know , the exact interaction of the microphone 's gonna differ depending on the person and so forth . But at least the basic acoustics are gonna be the same . So f if it 's really in one kiosk , then I think that you could just chain together and {disfmarker} and you know , as much {disfmarker} as much speech as possible to {disfmarker} because what you 're really trying to get at is the {disfmarker} is the reverberation characteristic .
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor D: But in {disfmarker} in the case of the mobile , uh , {comment} presumably the acoustic 's changing all over the place .
Grad C: Right .
Professor D: And in that case you probably don't wanna have it be endless because you wanna have some sort of {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not a question of how long do you think it 's {disfmarker} you can get an approximation to a stationary something , given that it 's not really stationary .
Grad C: Right . Right .
Professor D: So .
Professor G: Hmm .
Grad C: And I {disfmarker} I g I guess I s just started thinking of another question , which is , {vocalsound} for {disfmarker} for the very first frame , w what {disfmarker} what do I do if I 'm {disfmarker} if I take {disfmarker} if I use that frame to calculate the mean , then I 'm just gonna get n nothing .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Um ,
Professor D: Right .
Grad C: so I should probably have some kind of default {vocalsound} mean for the first f couple of frames ?
Professor D: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad C: OK .
Professor D: Yeah . Or subtract nothing . I mean , it 's {disfmarker}
Grad C: Or subtract nothing . And {disfmarker} and that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} I guess that 's something that 's p people have figured out how to deal with in cepstral mean subtraction as well ?
Professor D: Yeah , yeah . Yeah , people do something . They {disfmarker} they , uh , they have some , um , uh , in {disfmarker} in cepstral mean subtraction , for short - term window {disfmarker} analysis windows , as is usually done , you 're trying to get rid of some very general characteristic . And so , uh , if you have any other information about what a general kind of characteristic would be , then you {disfmarker} you can do it there .
PhD F: You can also {disfmarker} you can also reflect the data . So you take , uh {disfmarker} you know , I 'm not sure how many frames you need .
Grad C: Uh - huh .
PhD F: But you take that many from the front and flip it around to {disfmarker} a as the negative value .
Professor D: Yeah , that 's {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD F: So you can always {disfmarker}
Professor D: The other thing is that {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I remember B B N doing this , is that if you have a multi - pass system , um , if the first pass ta it takes most of the computation , the second and the third pass could be very , very quick ,
Grad C: Mmm .
Professor D: just looking at a relatively small n small , uh , space of hypotheses .
Grad C: Uh - huh .
Professor D: Then you can do your first pass {vocalsound} without any subtraction at all .
Grad C: Oh .
Professor D: And then your second pass , uh , uh , eliminates those {disfmarker} most of those hypotheses by , uh {disfmarker} by having an improved {disfmarker} improved version o of the analysis .
Grad C: OK . OK .
Professor D: So .
Grad C: OK . So that was all I had , for now .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD F: Do you wanna go , Barry ?
Grad A: Yeah , OK . Um , so for the past , {vocalsound} uh , week an or two , I 've been just writing my , uh , formal thesis proposal . Um , so I 'm taking {vocalsound} this qualifier exam that 's coming up in two weeks . And I {disfmarker} I finish writing a proposal and submit it to the committee . Um . And uh , should I {disfmarker} should I explain , uh , more about what {disfmarker} what I 'm proposing to do , and s and stuff ?
Professor D: Yes , briefly .
PhD F: Yeah briefly .
Grad A: OK . Um , so briefly , {vocalsound} I 'm proposing to do a n a new p approach to speech recognition using um , a combination of , uh , multi - band ideas and ideas , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {comment} about the uh , acoustic phonec phonetic approach to speech recognition . Um , so I will be using {vocalsound} these graphical models that {disfmarker} um , that implement the multi - band approach {vocalsound} to recognize a set of intermediate categories that might involve , uh , things like phonetic features {vocalsound} or other {disfmarker} other f feature things that are more closely related to the acoustic signal itself . Um , and the hope in all of this is that by going multi - band and by going into these , {vocalsound} um intermediate classifications , {vocalsound} that we can get a system that 's more robust to {disfmarker} to unseen noises , and situations like that . Um , and so , some of the research issues involved in this are , {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} {comment} one , what kind of intermediate categories do we need to classify ? Um , another one is {vocalsound} um , what {disfmarker} what other types of structures in these multi - band graphical models should we consider in order to um , combine evidence from {vocalsound} the sub - bands ? And , uh , the third one is how do we {disfmarker} how do we merge all the , uh , information from the individual uh , multi - band classifiers to come up with word {disfmarker} word recognition or {disfmarker} or phone recognition things . Um , so basically that 's {disfmarker} that 's what I 've been doing . And ,
PhD F: So you 've got two weeks , huh ?
Grad A: I got two weeks to brush up on d um , presentation stuff and , um ,
Professor D: Oh , I thought you were finishing your thesis in two weeks .
Grad A: But . Oh , that too .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad A: Yeah .
PhD F: Are you gonna do any dry runs for your thing ,
Grad A: Yes .
PhD F: or are you just gonna {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yes . I , um {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm gonna do some . Would you be interested ? To help out ?
PhD F: Sure .
Grad A: OK .
PhD F: Sure .
Grad A: Thanks . Yeah .
PhD F: Is that it ?
Grad A: That 's it .
PhD F: Hhh . OK . Uh . Hhh . Let 's see . So we 've got forty minutes left , and it seems like there 's a lot of material . An - any suggestions about where we {disfmarker} where we should go next ?
PhD B: Mmm , @ @ .
PhD F: Uh . Do you wanna go , Sunil ? Maybe we 'll just start with you .
PhD B: Yeah . But I actually stuck most of this in our m last meeting with Guenter . Um , but I 'll just {disfmarker} Um , so the last week , uh , I showed some results with only SpeechDat - Car which was like some fifty - six percent . And , uh , I didn't h I mean , I {disfmarker} I found that the results {disfmarker} I mean , I wasn't getting that r results on the TI - digit . So I was like looking into " why , what is wrong with the TI - digits ? " . Why {disfmarker} why I was not getting it . And I found that , the noise estimation is a reason for the TI - digits to perform worse than the baseline . So , uh , I actually , picked th I mean , the first thing I did was I just scaled the noise estimate by a factor which is less than one to see if that {disfmarker} because I found there are a lot of zeros in the spectrogram for the TI - digits when I used this approach . So the first thing I did was I just scaled the noise estimate . And I found {disfmarker} So the {disfmarker} the results that I 've shown here are the complete results using the new {disfmarker} Well , the n the new technique is nothing but the noise estimate scaled by a factor of point five . So it 's just an ad - hoc {disfmarker} I mean , some intermediate result , because it 's not optimized for anything . So the results {disfmarker} The trend {disfmarker} the only trend I could see from those results was like the {disfmarker} the p the current noise estimation or the , uh , noise composition scheme is working good for like the car noise type of thing . Because I 've {disfmarker} the only {disfmarker} only {disfmarker} p very good result in the TI - digits is the noise {disfmarker} car noise condition for their test - A , which is like the best I could see that uh , for any non - stationary noise like " Babble " or " Subway " or any {disfmarker} " Street " , some " Restaurant " noise , it 's like {disfmarker} it 's not performing w very well . So , the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So that {disfmarker} that 's the first thing I c uh , I could make out from this stuff . And {disfmarker}
Professor G: Yeah , I think what is important to see is that there is a big difference between the training modes .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor G: Uh - huh . If you have clean training , you get also a fifty percent improvement .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor G: But if you have muddy condition training you get only twenty percent .
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Uh , and in that twenty percent @ @ it 's very inconsistent across different noise conditions .
Professor G: Mm - hmm . Mmm .
PhD B: So I have like a forty - five {vocalsound} percent for " Car noise " and then there 's a minus five percent for the " Babble " ,
Professor G: Mmm .
PhD B: and there 's this thirty - three for the " Station " . And so {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not actually very consistent across . So . The only correlation between the SpeechDat - Car and this performance is the c stationarity of the noise that is there in these conditions and the SpeechDat - Car .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And , uh {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so the overall result is like in the last page , which is like forty - seven , which is still very imbalanced because there are like fifty - six percent on the SpeechDat - Car and thirty - five percent on the TI - digits . And {disfmarker} uh , ps the fifty - six percent is like comparable to what the French Telecom gets , but the thirty - five percent is way off .
Professor D: I 'm sort of confused but {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} I 'm looking on the second page ,
PhD B: Oh , yep .
Professor D: and it says " fifty percent " {disfmarker} looking in the lower right - hand corner , " fifty percent relative performance " .
Professor G: For the clean training .
Professor D: Is that {disfmarker}
Professor G: u And if you {disfmarker} if you look {disfmarker}
Professor D: is that fifty percent improvement ?
PhD B: Yeah . For {disfmarker} that 's for the clean training and the noisy testing for the TI - digits .
Professor G: Yeah .
Professor D: So it 's improvement over the baseline mel cepstrum ?
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor D: But the baseline mel cepstrum under those training doesn't do as well I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm trying to understand why it 's {disfmarker} it 's eighty percent {disfmarker} That 's an accuracy number , I guess ,
PhD B: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Professor D: right ? So that 's not as good as the one up above .
PhD B: No .
Professor D: But the fifty is better than the one up above ,
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: so I 'm confused .
PhD B: Uh , actually the noise compensation whatever , uh , we are put in it works very well for the high mismatch condition . I mean , it 's consistent in the SpeechDat - Car and in the clean training also it gives it {disfmarker} But this fifty percent is {disfmarker} is that the {disfmarker} the high mismatch performance {disfmarker} equivalent to the high mismatch performance in the speech .
PhD F: So n s So since the high mismatch performance is much worse to begin with , it 's easier to get a better relative improvement .
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah . I do . Yeah , yeah . So by putting this noise {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah , if we look at the figures on the right , we see that the reference system is very bad .
Professor D: Oh .
PhD B: Yeah . The reference drops like a very fast {disfmarker}
Professor D: Oh , oh , oh , oh , oh , oh .
PhD E: Like for clean {disfmarker} clean training condition .
Professor D: I see .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: I see .
PhD E: Nnn .
Professor D: This is {disfmarker} this is TI digits {comment} we 're looking at ?
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah . Oh {disfmarker}
Professor D: This whole page is TI - digits
PhD B: Oh . Yeah .
Professor D: or this is {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: It 's not written anywhere . Yeah , it 's TI - digits . The first r spreadsheet is TI - digits .
Professor D: Mmm . How does clean training do for the , uh , " Car "
Professor G: Hmm .
PhD B: The " Car " ?
Professor D: stuff ?
PhD B: Oh . Still {disfmarker} it still , uh {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's still consistent . I mean , I get the best performance in the case of " Car " , which is the third column in the A condition .
Professor D: No . I mean , this is added noise . I mean , this is TI - digits . I 'm sorry . I meant {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the , uh , multi - language , uh , uh , Finnish and {disfmarker}
PhD B: Uh {disfmarker}
Professor G: This is next {disfmarker} next page .
PhD B: That 's the next {disfmarker} next spreadsheet , is {disfmarker}
Professor G: Hmm .
PhD B: So that is the performance for Italian , Finnish and Spanish .
Professor D: " Training condition " {disfmarker} Oh , right . So " clean " corresponds to " high mismatch " .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: And " increase " , That 's increase e
Professor G: Improvement .
PhD B: Improvement . That 's {disfmarker} " Percentage increase " is the percentage improvement over the baseline .
Professor G: Yeah . It 's {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker}
PhD B: So that 's {disfmarker}
Professor D: Which means decrease in word error rate ?
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: OK , so " percentage increase " means decrease ?
PhD B: Yeah , yeah .
Professor D: OK .
Professor G: Yeah . The {disfmarker} the w there was a very long discussion about this on {disfmarker} on the {disfmarker} on the , uh , Amsterdam meeting .
Professor D: Yeah .
Professor G: How to {disfmarker} how to calculate it then .
PhD B: Yeah . There 's {disfmarker} there 's a {disfmarker}
Professor G: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I guess you are using finally this {disfmarker} the scheme which they {disfmarker}
PhD B: Which is there in the spreadsheet .
Professor G: OK .
PhD B: I 'm not changing anything in there .
Professor G: Mmm .
Professor D: Alright .
PhD B: So . Uh , yeah . So all the hi H M numbers are w very good , in the sense , they are better than what the French Telecom gets . So . But the {disfmarker} the only number that 's still {disfmarker} I mean , which Stephane also got in his result was that medium mismatch of the Finnish , which is very {disfmarker} {vocalsound} which is a very strange situation where we used the {disfmarker} we changed the proto for initializing the HMM {disfmarker} I mean , this {disfmarker} this is basically because it gets stuck in some local minimum in the training . That seventy - five point seven nine in the Finnish mismatch which is that {disfmarker} the eleven point nine six what we see .
Professor D: Uh - huh .
Professor G: Mmm .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: So we have to jiggle it somehow ?
PhD B: Yeah {disfmarker} so we start with that different proto and it becomes eighty - eight , which is like some fifty percent improvement .
Professor D: S Wait a minute . Start with a different what ?
PhD B: Different prototype , which is like a different initialization for the , uh , s transition probabilities . It 's just that right now , the initialization is to stay more in the current state , which is point four point six , right ? Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD B: And if it changes to point five point five , which is equal @ @ for transition and self loop where it becomes eighty - eight percent .
PhD F: Well , but that involves mucking with the back - end ,
PhD B: Yeah . We can't do it .
PhD F: which is not allowed .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD E: Mmm .
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD B: So .
Professor G: I mean , it uh , like , i i i It is well known , this {disfmarker} this medium match condition of the Finnish data has some strange effects .
PhD B: Very s
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD B: It has a very few at {disfmarker} uh , actually , c uh , tran I mean , words also .
Professor G: I mean , that is {disfmarker} Yeah ,
PhD B: It 's a very , very small set , actually .
Professor G: that too . Yeah . Uh - huh .
PhD B: So there is {disfmarker}
Professor G: There is a l a {disfmarker} There is a lot of {disfmarker} Uh , there are a lot of utterances with music in {disfmarker} with music in the background .
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yeah .
Professor G: Mmm .
Professor D: Uh - huh .
PhD B: Yeah . It has some music also . I mean , very horrible music like like I know .
Professor D: So maybe for that one you need a much smarter VAD ? Mmm ,
PhD B: Uh {disfmarker}
Professor D: if it 's music .
PhD B: So , that {disfmarker} that 's the {disfmarker} that 's about the results . And , uh , the summary is like {disfmarker} OK . So there are {disfmarker} the other thing what I tried was , which I explained in the last meeting , is using the channel zero for , uh , for both dropping and estimating the noise . And that 's like just to f n get a feel of how good it is . I guess the fifty - six percent improvement in the SpeechDat - Car becomes like sixty - seven percent . Like ten percent better . But that 's {disfmarker} that 's not a {disfmarker} that 's a cheating experiment . So . That 's just {disfmarker} So , m w
Professor G: But the {disfmarker} but the , uh , forty - seven point nine percent which you have now , that 's already a remarkable improvement in comparison to the first proposal .
PhD B: Yeah . So we had forty - four percent in the first proposal .
Professor G: OK .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: We have f a big im So {vocalsound} the major improvement that we got was in all the high mismatch cases , because all those numbers were in sixties and seventies because we never had any noise compensations .
Professor G: Mmm .
PhD B: So that 's where the biggest improvement came up . Not much in the well match and the medium match and TI - digits also right now . So this is still at three or four percent improvement over the first proposal .
Professor G: Mmm . Mmm .
Professor D: Yeah , so that 's good .
PhD B: Yeah . So .
Professor D: Then if we can improve the noise estimation , then it should get better .
Professor G: Yeah , I {disfmarker} I started thinking about also {disfmarker} I mean yeah , uh , {vocalsound} I discovered the same problem when I started working on {disfmarker} uh , on this Aurora task {vocalsound} almost two years ago , that you have the problem with this mulit a at the beginning we had only this multi condition training of the TI - digits .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor G: And , uh , I {disfmarker} I found the same problem . Just taking um , what we were used to u {vocalsound} use , I mean , uh , some type of spectral subtraction , {comment} y {vocalsound} you get even worse results than {vocalsound} the basis
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah ,
Professor G: and uh {disfmarker}
PhD B: yeah .
Professor G: I {disfmarker} I tried to find an explanation for it ,
Professor D: Mmm .
Professor G: so {disfmarker}
PhD B: So . Yes . Stephane also has the same experience of using the spectral subtraction right ?
Professor G: Mmm .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Yeah . So here {disfmarker} here I mean , I found that it 's {disfmarker} if I changed the noise estimate I could get an improvement .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD B: So that 's {disfmarker} so it 's something which I can actually pursue , is the noise estimate .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And {disfmarker}
Professor G: Yeah , I think what you do is in {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when you have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} this multi - condition training mode , um then you have {disfmarker} then you can train models for the speech , for the words , as well as for the pauses where you really have all information about the noise available .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor G: And it was surprising {disfmarker} At the beginning it was not surprising to me that you get really the best results on doing it this way , I mean , in comparison to any type of training on clean data and any type of processing . But it was {disfmarker} So , u u it {disfmarker} it seems to be the best what {disfmarker} wh wh what {disfmarker} what we can do in this moment is multi - condition training . And every when we now start introducing some {disfmarker} some noise reduction technique we {disfmarker} we introduce also somehow artificial distortions .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor G: And these artificial distortions {disfmarker} uh , I have the feeling that they are the reason why {disfmarker} why we have the problems in this multi - condition training . That means the H M Ms we trained , they are {disfmarker} they are based on Gaussians ,
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor G: and on modeling Gaussians . And if you {disfmarker} Can I move a little bit with this ? Yeah . And if we introduce now this {disfmarker} this u spectral subtraction , or Wiener filtering stuff {disfmarker} So , usually what you have is maybe , um {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm showing now an envelope um maybe you 'll {disfmarker} f for this time . So usually you have {disfmarker} maybe in clean condition you have something which looks like this . And if it is noisy it is somewhere here . And then you try to subtract it or Wiener filter or whatever . And what you get is you have always these problems , that you have this {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these zeros in there .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor G: And you have to do something if you get these negative values . I mean , this is your noise estimate and you somehow subtract it or do whatever . Uh , and then you have {disfmarker} And then I think what you do is you introduce some {disfmarker} some artificial distribution in this uh in {disfmarker} in the models . I mean , i you {disfmarker} you train it also this way but , i somehow there is {disfmarker} u u there is no longer a {disfmarker} a Gaussian distribution . It is somehow a strange distribution which we introduce with these {vocalsound} artificial distortions . And {disfmarker} and I was thinking that {disfmarker} that might be the reason why you get these problems in the {disfmarker} especially in the multi - condition training mode .
PhD B: Yeah , yeah .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Th - That 's true . Yeah {disfmarker} the c the models are not complex enough to absorb that additional variability that you 're introducing .
Professor G: s
PhD F: Thanks Adam .
Professor G: Yeah . Yes .
PhD B: Well , that 's {disfmarker} Yeah . So {disfmarker}
PhD E: I also have the feeling that um , the reason ye why it doesn't work is {disfmarker} yeah , that the models are much {disfmarker} are t um , not complex enough . Because I {disfmarker} actually I als always had a good experience with spectral subtraction , just a straight spectral subtraction algorithm when I was using neural networks , big neural networks , which maybe are more able to model strange distributions and {disfmarker}
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: But {disfmarker} Yeah . Then I tried the same {disfmarker} exactly the same spectral subtraction algorithm on these Aurora tasks and it simply doesn't work . It 's even {disfmarker} it , uh , hurts even .
Professor G: Hmm .
PhD E: So .
Professor D: We probably should at some point here try the tandem {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the system - two kind of stuff with this , with the spectral subtraction for that reason .
Professor G: Hmm .
Professor D: Cuz {vocalsound} again , it should do a transformation to a domain where it maybe {disfmarker} looks more Gaussian .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: Hmm . Yeah , y I {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} whe w w just yesterday when I was thinking about it {vocalsound} um w what {disfmarker} what we could try to do , or do about it {disfmarker} I mean , if you {disfmarker} if you get at this {disfmarker} in this situation that you get this {disfmarker} this negative values and you simply set it to zero or to a constant or whatever {vocalsound} if we {disfmarker} if we would use there a somehow , um {disfmarker} a random generator which {disfmarker} which has a certain distribution , u not a certain {disfmarker} {comment} yeah , a special distribution we should see {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we have to think about it .
PhD B: It 's {disfmarker}
Professor G: And that we , so , introduce again some natural behavior in this trajectory .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Very different from speech . Still , I mean , it shouldn't confuse the {disfmarker}
Professor G: Yeah , I mean , similar to what {disfmarker} what you see really u in {disfmarker} in the real um noisy situation .
PhD B: OK . Mm - hmm .
Professor G: Or i in the clean situation . But {disfmarker} but somehow a {disfmarker} a natural distribution .
Professor D: But isn't that s again sort of the idea of the additive thing , if it {disfmarker} as {disfmarker} as we had in the J stuff ? I mean , basically if {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you have random data , um , in {disfmarker} in the time domain , then when you look at the s spectrum it 's gonna be pretty flat . And {disfmarker} and ,
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: uh , so just add something everywhere rather than just in those places . It 's just a constant , right ?
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: Yeah . I think {disfmarker} e yeah . It 's {disfmarker} it 's just especially in these segments , I mean , you introduce , um , very artificial behavior .
Professor D: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor G: And {disfmarker}
Professor D: Well , see if you add something everywhere , it has almost no effect up {disfmarker} up {disfmarker} up on {disfmarker} on top . And it {disfmarker} and it {disfmarker} and it has significant effect down there .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: That was , sort of the idea .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Hmm . Yeah the {disfmarker} that 's true . That {disfmarker} those {disfmarker} those regions are the cause for this @ @ {disfmarker} those negative values or whatever you get .
Professor G: I Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Yeah . So .
Professor G: I mean , we {disfmarker} we could trit uh , we {disfmarker} we could think how w what {disfmarker} what we could try .
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah , yeah .
Professor G: I mean , {vocalsound} it {disfmarker} it was just an idea .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: I mean , we {disfmarker}
Professor D: I think when it 's noisy people should just speak up .
Professor G: to {disfmarker} Mmm .
PhD B: So {disfmarker}
PhD E: If we look at the France Telecom proposal , they use some kind of noise addition . They have a random number generator , right ? And they add noise on the trajectory of , uh , the log energy only , right ?
Professor D: Oh , they do !
PhD B: Yep .
Professor D: Oh .
PhD B: C - z C - zero and log energy also , yeah .
PhD E: Yeah . Um , But I don't know how much effect it {disfmarker} this have , but they do that .
PhD B: Now ?
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD B: Oh .
Professor G: Uh - huh .
Professor D: Hmm .
Professor G: So it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it is l somehow similar to what {disfmarker}
PhD E: I think because they have th log energy , yeah , and then just generate random number . They have some kind of mean and variance , and they add this number to {disfmarker} to the log energy simply . Um {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the log energy , the {disfmarker} after the clean {disfmarker} cleaning up .
Professor D: To the l
PhD B: So they add a random {disfmarker} random noise to it .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: To the {disfmarker} just the energy , or to the mel {disfmarker} uh , to the mel filter ?
PhD B: No . On - only to the log energy .
PhD E: Only {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor D: Oh .
Professor G: Uh - huh .
Professor D: So it {disfmarker} Cuz I mean , I think this is most interesting for the mel filters . Right ?
Professor G: Uh - huh .
Professor D: Or {disfmarker} or F F one or the other .
Professor G: But {disfmarker} but they do not apply filtering of the log energy or what {disfmarker}
PhD B: Like , uh {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker}
Professor G: like {disfmarker} like a spectral subtraction or {disfmarker}
PhD B: No {disfmarker} their filter is not M domain . S so they did filter their time signal
Professor G: Yeah . I kn
PhD B: and then what @ @ {disfmarker} u
Professor G: And then they calculate from this , the log energy
PhD B: Yeah {disfmarker} then after that it is s almost the same as the baseline prop system .
Professor G: or {disfmarker} ? Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And then the final log energy that they {disfmarker} that they get , that {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker} to that they add some random noise .
Professor D: Yeah , but again , that 's just log energy as opposed to {vocalsound} filter bank energy .
PhD B: Yeah . So it 's not the mel .
Professor G: Mmm .
PhD B: You know , it 's not the mel filter bank output .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD B: These are log energy computed from the time s domain signal ,
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: not from the mel filter banks . So {disfmarker} did {disfmarker}
Professor D: Hmm .
PhD E: Maybe it 's just a way to decrease the importance of this particular parameter in the {disfmarker} in the world feature vector cu if you add noise to one of the parameters , you widen the distributions
Professor D: Hmm .
PhD B: Becomes flat . The variance , yeah , reduces ,
PhD E: and {disfmarker}
PhD B: so . Hmm , yeah .
PhD E: Eee - sss - uh .
Professor D: So it could reduce the dependence on the amplitude and so on . Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah . Although {disfmarker}
Professor D: Maybe .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: So is , uh {disfmarker} Is that about it ?
PhD B: Uh , so the {disfmarker}
PhD F: Or {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: OK . So the other thing is the {disfmarker} I 'm just looking at a little bit on the delay issue where the delay of the system is like a hundred and eighty millisecond . So {vocalsound} I just {disfmarker} just tried another sk system {disfmarker} I mean , another filter which I 've like shown at the end . Which is very similar to the existing uh , filter . Only {disfmarker} Uh , only thing is that the phase is {disfmarker} is like a totally nonlinear phase because it 's a {disfmarker} it 's not a symmetric filter anymore .
PhD F: This is for the LDA ?
PhD B: Yeah {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so this {disfmarker} this is like {disfmarker} So this makes the delay like zero for LDA because it 's completely causal .
PhD F: Oh .
PhD B: So {disfmarker} So I got actually just the results for the Italian for that and that 's like {disfmarker} So the fifty - one point O nine has become forty - eight point O six , which is like three percent relative degradation . So I have like the fifty - one point O nine
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: and {disfmarker} So . I don't know it f fares for the other conditions . So it 's just like {disfmarker} it 's like a three percent relative degradation , with the {disfmarker}
Professor G: But {disfmarker} but is there {disfmarker} is there a problem with the one hundred eighty milliseconds ? Or {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: u Uh , may
Professor D: Th - Well , this is {disfmarker}
Professor G: Yeah , I mean , I talked to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} uh , I ta Uh , I talked , uh , about it with {disfmarker} with Hynek . I mean , there is {disfmarker}
Professor D: This is {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} So , basically our {disfmarker} our position is {vocalsound} that , um , we shouldn't be unduly constraining the latency at this point because we 're all still experimenting with trying to make the performance better in the presence of noise . Uh , there is a minority in that group who is a arguing {disfmarker} who are arguing for {vocalsound} um , uh , having a further constraining of the latency . So we 're s just continuing to keep aware of what the trade - offs are and , you know , what {disfmarker} what do we gain from having longer or shorter latencies ?
Professor G: Mmm .
Professor D: But since we always seem to at least get something out of longer latencies not being so constrained , we 're tending to go with that if we 're not told we can't do it .
PhD F: What {disfmarker} where was the , um {disfmarker} the smallest latency of all the systems last time ?
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: The French Telecom .
Professor D: Well , France Telecom was {disfmarker} was {disfmarker} was very short latency
Professor G: It 's {disfmarker}
Professor D: and they had a very good result .
PhD F: What {disfmarker} what was it ?
Professor D: It was thirty - five .
Professor G: It was in the order of thirty milliseconds
Professor D: Yeah .
Professor G: or {disfmarker}
PhD F: Thirteen ?
Professor D: th th
Professor G: Thirty .
PhD F: Thirty .
PhD B: Thirty - four .
Professor D: Yeah .
Professor G: Yeah .
Professor D: Yeah , so it 's possible to get very short latency .
Professor G:
Professor D: But , again , we 're {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the approaches that we 're using are ones that {vocalsound} take advantage of {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah . I was just curious about where we are compared to , you know , the shortest that people have done .
Professor G: But {disfmarker} but I think this thirty milliseconds {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they did {disfmarker} it did not include the {disfmarker} the delta calculation .
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
Professor G: And this is included now ,
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor G: you know ?
PhD B: So if they include the delta , it will be an additional forty millisecond .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Yeah .
Professor G: Yeah . I {disfmarker} I don't remember the {disfmarker} i th They were not using the HTK delta ?
PhD B: No , they 're using a nine - point window , which is like a four on either side ,
Professor G: Nine - point .
PhD B: which is like {disfmarker}
Professor G: OK .
PhD B: f so {disfmarker}
Professor G: Mmm .
PhD B: they didn't include that .
Professor D: Yeah .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So {disfmarker}
PhD E: Where does the comprish compression in decoding delay comes from ?
PhD F: OK .
PhD E:
PhD B: That 's the way the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the frames are packed , like you have to wait for one more frame to pack . Because it 's {disfmarker} the CRC is computed for two frames always .
Professor D: Well , that {disfmarker} the they would need that forty milliseconds also .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: No . They actually changed the compression scheme altogether .
Professor D: Right ?
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So they have their own compression and decoding scheme and they {disfmarker} I don't know what they have .
Professor D: Oh .
PhD B: But they have coded zero delay for that . Because they ch I know they changed it , their compression . They have their own CRC , their {disfmarker} their own {vocalsound} error correction mechanism .
Professor D: Oh .
PhD B: So they don't have to wait more than one more frame to know whether the current frame is in error .
Professor D: Oh , OK .
PhD B: So they changed the whole thing so that there 's no delay for that compression and {disfmarker} part also .
Professor D: Hmm .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Even you have reported actually zero delay for the {pause} compression . I thought maybe you also have some different {disfmarker}
Professor G: Mmm . Mmm . No , I think I {disfmarker} I used this scheme as it was before .
PhD B: OK . Ah . Mm - hmm .
PhD F: OK , we 've got twenty minutes so we should {vocalsound} probably try to move along . Uh , did you wanna go next , Stephane ?
PhD E: I can go next . Yeah . Mmm .
Professor D: Oh . Wait a minute . It 's {disfmarker}
PhD E: It 's {disfmarker} Yeah , we have to take {disfmarker}
Professor D: Wait a minute . I think {vocalsound} I 'm confused .
PhD E: Well {disfmarker} OK .
Professor D: Alright .
PhD E: So you have w w one sheet ? This one is {disfmarker} you don't need it , alright .
Professor D: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD E: So you have to take the whole {disfmarker} the five . There should be five sheets .
Professor D: OK ,
PhD E:
Professor D: I have four now because I left one with Dave because I thought I was dropping one off and passing the others on . So , no , we 're not . OK .
PhD B: Thanks .
PhD H: Please give me one .
Professor D: Ah , we need one more over here .
PhD E: OK , maybe there 's not enough for everybody .
PhD F: I can share with Barry .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor D: Oh , OK .
PhD E: But {disfmarker} Can we look at this ?
Professor G: OK .
Grad C: Yeah .
PhD E: So , yeah , there are two figures showing actually the , mmm , um , performance of the current VAD . So it 's a n neural network based on PLP parameters , uh , which estimate silence probabilities , and then I just put a median filtering on this to smooth the probabilities , right ? Um {disfmarker} I didn't use the {disfmarker} the scheme that 's currently in the proposal because {vocalsound} I don't want to {disfmarker} In the proposal {disfmarker} Well , in {disfmarker} in the system we want to add like speech frame before every word and a little bit of {disfmarker} of , uh , s a couple of frames after also . Uh , but to estimate the performance of the VAD , we don't want to do that , because it would artificially increase the um {disfmarker} the false alarm rate of speech detection . Right ? Um , so , there is u normally a figure for the Finnish and one for Italian . And maybe someone has two for the Italian because I 'm missing one figure here .
PhD B: No .
PhD E: Well {disfmarker} Well , whatever . Uh {disfmarker} Yeah , so one surprising thing that we can notice first is that apparently the speech miss rate is uh , higher than the false alarm rate . So . It means {disfmarker}
Professor G: So {disfmarker} so what is the lower curve and the upper curve ?
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Yeah , there are two curves . One curve 's for the close - talking microphone , which is the lower curve .
Professor G: Yeah .
PhD E: And the other one is for the distant microphone
Professor G: Ah , OK .
PhD E: which has more noise so , it 's logical that {vocalsound} it performs worse . So as I was saying , the miss rate is quite important uh , which means that we tend to label speech as {disfmarker} as a silence . And , uh , I didn't analyze further yet , but {vocalsound} I think it 's {disfmarker} it may be due to the fricative sounds which may be {disfmarker} in noisy condition maybe label {disfmarker} labelled as silence . And it may also be due to the alignment because {disfmarker} well , the reference alignment . Because right now I just use an alignment obtained from {disfmarker} from a system trained on channel zero . And I checked it a little bit but there might be alignment errors . Um , yeah , e like the fact that {vocalsound} {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the models tend to align their first state on silence and their last state o on silence also . So the reference {disfmarker} reference alignment would label as speech some silence frame before speech and after speech . This is something that we already noticed before when {disfmarker} mmm , So this cus this could also explain , uh , the high miss rate maybe . Uh {disfmarker}
Professor G: And {disfmarker} and this {disfmarker} this curves are the average over the whole database , so .
PhD E: Yeah . Right .
Professor G: Mmm .
PhD E: Um {disfmarker} Yeah , and the different points of the curves are for five uh , thresholds on the probability {comment} uh from point three to point seven .
PhD B: So that threshold {disfmarker}
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
PhD B: OK . S OK {disfmarker} so d the detection threshold is very {disfmarker}
PhD E: So the v
PhD B: Yeah , yeah .
PhD E: The VAD ? Yeah . There first , a threshold on the probability {comment} @ @ {comment} That puts all the values to zero or one .
PhD B: Mmm .
PhD E: And then the median filtering .
PhD B: Yeah , so the median filtering is fixed . You just change the threshold ?
PhD E: Yeah . It 's fixed ,
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD E: yeah . Mm - hmm . So , going from channel zero to channel one , uh , almost double the error rate . Um , Yeah . Well , so it 's a reference performance that we can {disfmarker} you know , if we want to {disfmarker} to work on the VAD , {comment} we can work on this basis
PhD H:
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: and {disfmarker}
PhD B: OK .
Grad A: Is this {disfmarker} is this VAD a MLP ?
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad A: OK . How {disfmarker} how big is it ?
PhD E: It 's a very big one . I don't remember .
PhD B: So three {disfmarker} three hundred and fifty inputs ,
PhD E: m
PhD B: uh , six thousand hidden nodes and two outputs . t t
Grad A: OK .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Middle - sized one .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD B:
PhD E: Yeah . Uh , ppp . I don't know , you have questions about that , or suggestions ?
PhD B: Mmm . S so {disfmarker}
PhD E: It seems {disfmarker} the performance seems worse in Finnish , which {disfmarker}
PhD B: Well , it 's not trained on Finnish .
PhD E: uh {disfmarker}
PhD H: It 's worse .
PhD E: It 's not trained on Finnish , yeah .
Professor D: What 's it trained on ?
PhD B: I mean , the MLP 's not trained on Finnish .
Professor D: Right , what 's it trained on ?
PhD B: Oh {disfmarker} oh . Sorry . Uh , it 's Italian TI - digits .
Professor D: Yeah . Oh , it 's trained on Italian ?
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: Yeah , OK .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . And {disfmarker}
PhD B: That 's right .
Professor D: OK .
PhD E: And also there are like funny noises on Finnish more than on Italian . I mean , like music
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah , the {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's true .
PhD E: and {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} So , yeah , we were looking at this . But for most of the noises , noises are {disfmarker} um , I don't know if we want to talk about that . But , well , the {disfmarker} the " Car " noises are below like five hundred hertz . And we were looking at the " Music " utterances and in this case the noise is more about two thousand hertz .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD E: Well , the music energy 's very low apparently . Uh , uh , from zero to two {disfmarker} two thousand hertz . So maybe just looking at this frequency range for {disfmarker} from five hundred to two thousand would improve somewhat the VAD
PhD B: Mmm .
PhD E: and {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD E: Mmm {disfmarker}
PhD B: So there are like some {disfmarker} some s some parameters you wanted to use or something ?
PhD E: Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yes .
PhD B: Or {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Uh , the next , um {disfmarker} Oh , it 's there .
Professor G: So is the {disfmarker} is the {disfmarker} is the training {disfmarker} is the training based on these labels files which you take as reference here ?
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor G: Wh - when you train the neural net y y you {disfmarker}
PhD E: No . It 's not . It 's {disfmarker} it was trained on some alignment obtained um , uh {disfmarker} For the Italian data , I think we trained the neural network on {disfmarker} with embedded training . So re - estimation of the alignment using the neural network , I guess . That 's right ?
PhD B: Yeah . We actually trained , uh , the {disfmarker} on the Italian training part .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD B: We {disfmarker} we had another {vocalsound} system with u
PhD E: So it was a f f a phonetic classification system for the Italian Aurora data .
PhD B: Yeah . It must be somewhere . Yeah .
PhD E: For the Aurora data that it was trained on , it was different . Like , for TI - digits you used a {disfmarker} a previous system that you had , I guess .
PhD B: What {disfmarker} No it {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah . That 's true .
PhD E: So the alignments from the different database that are used for training came from different system .
PhD B: Syste Yeah .
PhD E: Then we put them tog together . Well , you put them together and trained the VAD on them .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD E: Mmm .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor G: Hmm .
PhD E: Uh , But did you use channel {disfmarker} did you align channel one also ? Or {disfmarker}
PhD B: I just took their entire Italian training part .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD B: So it was both channel zero plus channel one .
PhD E: So di Yeah . So the alignments might be wrong then on channel one , right ?
PhD B: On one . Possible .
PhD E: So we might ,
PhD B: We can do a realignment .
PhD E: yeah ,
PhD B: That 's true .
PhD E: at least want to retrain on these alignments , which should be better because they come from close - talking microphone .
Professor G: Yeah , the {disfmarker} that was my idea . I mean , if {disfmarker} if it ha if it is not the same labeling which is taking the spaces .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD E: OK .
PhD B: Yeah , possible .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor G: Mmm .
PhD B: I mean , it {disfmarker} so the system {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD B: so the VAD was trained on maybe different set of labels for channel zero and channel one
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: and {disfmarker}
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: was the alignments were w were different for {disfmarker} s certainly different because they were independently trained .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: We didn't copy the channel zero alignments to channel one .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD B: But for the new alignments what you generated , you just copied the channel zero to channel one , right ? Yeah .
PhD E: Right . Yeah . Um . And eh , hhh actually when we look at {disfmarker} at the VAD , {vocalsound} for some utterances it 's almost perfect , I mean , it just dropped one frame , the first frame of speech or {disfmarker} So there are some utterances where it 's almost one hundred percent VAD performance .
Professor G: Hmm .
PhD E: Uh , but {disfmarker} Yeah . Mmm {disfmarker} Yep . So the next thing is um , I have the spreadsheet for three different system . But for this you only have to look right now on the SpeechDat - Car performance uh , because I didn't test {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} I didn't test the spectral subtraction on TI - digits yet . Uh , so you have three she sheets . One is the um proposal - one system . Actually , it 's not exe exactly proposal - one . It 's the system that Sunil just described . Um , but with uh , Wiener filtering from um , France Telecom included . Um , so this gives like fifty - seven point seven percent , uh , s uh , error rate reduction on the SpeechDat - Car data . Mmm , and then I have two sheets where it 's for a system where {disfmarker} uh , so it 's again the same system . But in this case we have spectral subtraction with a maximum overestimation factor of two point five . Uh , there is smoothing of the gain trajectory with some kind of uh , low - pass filter , which has forty milliseconds latency . And then , after subtraction um , I add a constant to the energies and I have two cases d where {disfmarker} The first case is where the constant is twenty - five DB below the mean speech energy and the other is thirty DB below . Um , and for these s two system we have like fifty - five point , uh , five - percent improvement , and fifty - eight point one . So again , it 's around fifty - six , fifty - seven . Uh {disfmarker}
Professor D: Cuz I notice the TI - digits number is exactly the same for these last two ?
PhD E: Yeah , because I didn't {disfmarker} For the France Telecom uh , spectral subtraction included in the {disfmarker} our system , the TI - digits number are the right one , but not for the other system because I didn't test it yet {disfmarker} this system , including {disfmarker} with spectral subtraction on the TI - digits data . I just tested it on SpeechDat - Car .
Professor D: Ah ! So {disfmarker} so that means the only thing {disfmarker}
Professor G: Mm - hmm . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so these numbers are simply {disfmarker}
PhD E: This , we have to {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD B: But this number .
Professor D: Yeah .
Professor G: Yeah .
Professor D: So you {disfmarker} so you just should look at that fifty - eight perc point O nine percent and so on .
PhD E: Yes .
Professor G: OK .
PhD E: Right . Right .
Professor D: OK . Good .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Um , Yeah .
PhD B: So this {disfmarker} So by {disfmarker} uh , by {disfmarker} by reducing the noise a {disfmarker} a decent threshold like minus thirty DB , it 's like {disfmarker} Uh , you are like r r reducing the floor of the noisy regions , right ?
Professor G: s
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah . The floor is lower . Um ,
PhD B: Uh - huh .
PhD E: mm - hmm .
Professor D: I 'm sorry . So when you say minus twenty - five or minus thirty DB , with respect to what ?
PhD E: To the average um , speech energy which is estimated on the world database .
Professor D: OK , so basically you 're creating a signal - to - noise ratio of twenty - five or thirty DB ?
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: uh r
PhD E: But it 's not {disfmarker}
Professor G: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think what you do is this .
PhD E: it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}
Professor G: i When {disfmarker} when you have this , {vocalsound} after you subtracted it , I mean , then you get something w w with this , uh , where you set the values to zero and then you simply add an additive constant again .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor G: So you shift it somehow . This {disfmarker} this whole curve is shifted again .
Professor D: But did you do that before the thresholding to zero ,
PhD E: Right . It 's {disfmarker}
Professor D: or {disfmarker} ?
PhD E: But , it 's after the thresholding .
Professor G:
Professor D: Oh ,
PhD E: So ,
Professor D: so you 'd really want to do it before ,
PhD E: maybe {disfmarker}
Professor D: right ?
PhD E: maybe we might do it before ,
Professor D: Yeah , because then the {disfmarker} then you would have less of that phenomenon .
PhD E: yeah . Yeah .
Professor D: I think .
PhD E: Uh {disfmarker}
Professor G: E Hhh .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: c
PhD E: But still , when you do this and you take the log after that , it {disfmarker} it reduce the {disfmarker} the variance .
Professor D: Yeah , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} Right .
PhD E: But {disfmarker} Mmm ,
Professor D: Yeah , that will reduce the variance . That 'll help . But maybe if you does {disfmarker} do it before you get less of these funny - looking things he 's drawing .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Um ,
PhD B: So before it 's like adding this , col to the {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker} o exi original {disfmarker}
Professor G: But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}
PhD E: We would {disfmarker}
Professor D: Right at the point where you 've done the subtraction .
PhD B: OK .
Professor D: Um , essentially you 're adding a constant into everything .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: But the way Stephane did it , it is exactly the way I have implemented in the phone , so .
Professor D: Oh , yeah , better do it different , then . Yeah .
PhD E: Um .
Professor D: Just you {disfmarker} you just ta you just set it for a particular signal - to - noise ratio that you want ?
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor G: Yeah I {disfmarker} I made s similar investigations like Stephane did here , just uh , adding this constant and {disfmarker} and looking how dependent is it on the value of the constant
Professor D: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: and then , must choose them somehow {vocalsound} to give on average the best results for a certain range of the signal - to - noise ratios .
Professor D: Uh - huh .
PhD E: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor G: So {disfmarker}
PhD E: Oh , it 's clear . I should have gi given other results . Also it 's clear when you don't add noise , it 's much worse . Like , around five percent worse I guess .
Professor D: Uh - huh .
PhD E: And if you add too much noise it get worse also . And it seems that {vocalsound} right now this {disfmarker} this is c a constant that does not depend on {disfmarker} {comment} on anything that you can learn from the utterance . It 's just a constant noise addition . Um . And I {disfmarker} I think w w
Professor D: I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry . Then {disfmarker} then I 'm confused .
PhD E: I think {disfmarker}
Professor D: I thought {disfmarker} you 're saying it doesn't depend on the utterance but I thought you were adding an amount that was twenty - five DB down from the signal energy .
PhD E: Yeah , so the way I did that , {comment} i I just measured the average speech energy of the {disfmarker} all the Italian data .
Professor D: Oh !
PhD E: And then {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I have {disfmarker} I used this as mean speech energy . Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Oh , it 's just a constant amount over all .
PhD E: Yeah . And {disfmarker}
PhD B: OK .
PhD E: wha what I observed is that for Italian and Spanish , {comment} when you go to thirty and twenty - five DB , {comment} uh it {disfmarker} it 's good .
PhD B: Oh .
PhD E: It stays {disfmarker} In this range , it 's , uh , the p u well , the performance of the {disfmarker} this algorithm is quite good . But for Finnish , {vocalsound} you have a degradation already when you go from thirty - five to thirty and then from thirty to twenty - five . And {disfmarker} I have the feeling that maybe it 's because just Finnish has a mean energy that 's lower than {disfmarker} than the other databases . And due to this the thresholds should be {disfmarker}
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD E: the {disfmarker} the a the noise addition should be lower
Professor D: But in {disfmarker} I mean , in the real thing you 're not gonna be able to measure what people are doing over half an hour or an hour , or anything , right ?
PhD E: and {disfmarker}
Professor D: So you have to come up with this number from something else .
PhD E: Yeah . So {disfmarker}
Professor G: Uh , but you are not doing it now language dependent ? Or {disfmarker} ?
PhD E: It 's not . It 's just something that 's fixed .
Professor G: No . It 's overall .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor G: OK .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Um {disfmarker}
Professor D: But what he is doing language dependent is measuring what that number i reference is that he comes down twenty - five down from .
PhD E: Yeah , so I g No . It {disfmarker} No .
Professor D: No ?
PhD E: Because I did it {disfmarker} I started working on Italian . I obtained this average energy
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD E: and then I used this one .
PhD B: For all the languages . OK .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: So it 's sort of arbitrary .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: I mean , so if y if {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD E: Yep .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD E: Um , yeah , so the next thing is to use this as {disfmarker} as maybe initialization
Professor D: Uh - huh .
PhD E: and then use something on - line .
Professor D: Something more adaptive ,
PhD E: But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} And I expect improvement at least in Finnish because eh {disfmarker} the way {disfmarker}
Professor D: yeah . OK .
PhD E: Well , um , for Italian and Spanish it 's {disfmarker} th this value works good but not necessarily for Finnish . Mmm . But unfortunately there is , like , this forty millisecond latency and , um {disfmarker} Yeah , so I would try to somewhat reduce this @ @ . I already know that if I completely remove this latency , so . {vocalsound} um , {comment} it {disfmarker} um there is a three percent hit on Italian .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: d Does latency {disfmarker}
Professor G: i
PhD B: Sorry . Go ahead .
Professor G: Yeah . Your {disfmarker} your smoothing was @ @ {comment} uh , over this s so to say , the {disfmarker} the factor of the Wiener . And then it 's , uh {disfmarker} What was it ? This {disfmarker}
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: this smoothing , it was over the subtraction factor , so to say .
PhD E: It 's a smoothing over the {disfmarker} the gain of the subtraction algorithm .
Professor G: Was this done {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . And {disfmarker} and you are looking into the future , into the past .
PhD E: Right .
Professor G: And smoothing .
PhD E: So , to smooth this {pause} thing .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Yeah . Um {disfmarker}
Professor G: And did {disfmarker} did you try simply to smooth um to smooth the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} t to {disfmarker} to smooth stronger the {disfmarker} the envelope ?
PhD E: Um , no , I did not .
Professor G: Mmm .
PhD E: Mmm .
Professor G: Because I mean , it should have a similar effect if you {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor G: I mean , you {disfmarker} you have now several stages of smoothing , so to say . You start up . As far as I remember you {disfmarker} you smooth somehow the envelope , you smooth somehow the noise estimate ,
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Mmm {disfmarker}
Professor G: and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and later on you smooth also this subtraction factor .
PhD E: Uh , no , it 's {disfmarker} it 's just the gain that 's smoothed actually
PhD B: Uh , actually I d I do all the smoothing .
PhD E: but it 's smoothed {disfmarker}
Professor G: Ah . Oh , it w it was you .
PhD B: Yeah , yeah .
PhD E: Uh {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor G: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah . No , in this case it 's just the gain .
Professor G: Yeah .
PhD E: And {disfmarker}
Professor G: Uh - huh .
PhD E: But the way it 's done is that um , for low gain , there is this non nonlinear smoothing actually . For low gains um , I use the smoothed sm uh , smoothed version but {disfmarker} for high gain @ @ {comment} it 's {disfmarker} I don't smooth .
Professor G: Uh . Mm - hmm . I just , uh {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} Experience shows you , if {disfmarker} if you do the {disfmarker} The best is to do the smoo smoothing as early as possible .
PhD E: Uh - huh .
Professor G: So w when you start up . I mean , you start up with the {disfmarker} with the {disfmarker} somehow with the noisy envelope .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: And , best is to smooth this somehow .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Uh , yeah , I could try this . Um .
Professor G: And {disfmarker}
PhD B: So , before estimating the SNR , @ @ smooth the envelope .
Professor G: Yeah . Yeah . Uh - huh .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . But {disfmarker} Yeah . Then I {disfmarker} I would need to find a way to like smooth less also when there is high energy . Cuz I noticed that it {disfmarker} it helps a little bit to s like smooth more during low energy portions and less during speech ,
Professor G: Yes , y
PhD E: because if you smooth then y you kind of distort the speech .
Professor G: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD E: Um .
Professor G: Right .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: Yeah , I think when w you {disfmarker} you could do it in this way that you say , if you {disfmarker} if I 'm {disfmarker} you have somehow a noise estimate ,
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: and , if you say I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} with my envelope I 'm close to this noise estimate ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor G: then you have a bad signal - to - noise ratio and then you {disfmarker} you would like to have a stronger smoothing .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: So you could {disfmarker} you could base it on your estimation of the signal - to - noise ratio on your actual {disfmarker}
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mmm .
PhD B: Yeah , or some silence probability from the VAD if you have {disfmarker}
PhD E: Um , yeah , but I don't trust {vocalsound} the current VAD . So .
PhD B: Yeah , uh , so not {disfmarker} not right now maybe .
PhD E: Well , maybe .
Professor D: The VAD later will be much better .
PhD E: Maybe .
Professor D: Yeah . So . I see .
PhD F: So is {pause} that it ?
PhD E: Uh , fff {comment} I think that 's it . Yeah . Uh .
Professor G: s So to summarize the performance of these , SpeechDat - Car results is similar than {disfmarker} than yours so to say .
PhD B: Yeah , so the fifty - eight is like the be some fifty - six point {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor G: Y you have {disfmarker} you have fifty - six point four
PhD B: Yeah , that 's true .
Professor G: and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and dependent on this additive constant , it is s better or {disfmarker} or worse .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD B: Slightly better .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD H:
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor G: Yeah .
PhD E: And , {vocalsound} yeah , i i i the condition where it 's better than your approach , it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} just because maybe it 's better on well matched and that the weight on well matched is {disfmarker} is bigger ,
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah , you {disfmarker} you caught up .
PhD E: because {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yep , that 's true .
PhD E: if you don't weigh differently the different condition , you can see that your {disfmarker} well , the win the two - stage Wiener filtering is maybe better or {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD E: It 's better for high mismatch , right ?
PhD B: Yeah , it 's better for high mismatch .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . But a little bit worse for well matched .
PhD B: So over all it gets , yeah , worse for the well matched condition , so y
PhD E: Uh - huh .
PhD F: So we need to combine these two .
PhD B: Uh , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the best thing , is like the French Telecom system is optimized for the well matched condition . They c
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Yeah . So they know that the weighting is good for the well matched , and so there 's {disfmarker} everywhere the well matched 's s s performance is very good for the French Telecom .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor G: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: T we are {disfmarker} we may also have to do something similar @ @ .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Well , our tradition here has always been to focus on the mismatched .
PhD B: Um the {disfmarker}
Professor D: Cuz it 's more interesting .
Professor G: Mu - my {disfmarker} mine was it too , I mean .
Professor D: Yeah .
Professor G: Before I started working on this Aurora .
Professor D: Yeah .
Professor G: so .
Professor D: Yeah . Yeah . OK .
PhD F: Carmen ? Do you , uh {disfmarker}
PhD H: Well , I only say that the {disfmarker} this is , a summary of the {disfmarker} of all the VTS experiments and say that the result in the last {comment} um , for Italian {disfmarker} the last experiment for Italian , {vocalsound} are bad . I make a mistake when I write . Up at D I copy {vocalsound} one of the bad result .
PhD B: So you {disfmarker}
PhD H: And {disfmarker} There . {vocalsound} You know , this . Um , well . If we put everything , we improve a lot u the spectral use of the VTS but the final result {vocalsound} are not still mmm , good {vocalsound} like the Wiener filter for example . I don't know . Maybe it 's {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} it 's possible to {disfmarker} to have the same result .
PhD B: That 's somewhere {disfmarker}
PhD H: I don't know exactly . Mmm . Because I have , {vocalsound} mmm , {comment} worse result in medium mismatch and high mismatch .
PhD B: You s you have a better r Yeah . You have some results that are good for the high mismatch .
PhD H: And {disfmarker} Yeah . I someti are more or less similar but {disfmarker} but are worse . And still I don't have the result for TI - digits . The program is training . Maybe for this weekend I will have result TI - digits and I can complete that s like this . Well .
Professor D: Uh . Right .
PhD H: One thing that I {comment} note are not here in this result {vocalsound} but are speak {disfmarker} are spoken before with Sunil I {disfmarker} I improve my result using clean LDA filter .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD H: If I use , {vocalsound} eh , the LDA filter that are training with the noisy speech , {vocalsound} that hurts the res my results .
Professor D: So what are these numbers here ? Are these with the clean or with the noisy ?
PhD H: This is with the clean .
Professor D: OK .
PhD H: With the noise I have worse result , that if I doesn't use it .
Professor D: Uh - huh .
PhD H: But m that may be because {vocalsound} with this technique {vocalsound} we are using really {disfmarker} really clean speech . The speech {disfmarker} the {comment} representation that go to the HTK is really clean speech because it 's from the dictionary , the code book and maybe from that . I don't know .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD H: Because I think that you {disfmarker} did some experiments using the two {disfmarker} the two LDA filter , clean and noi and noise ,
PhD E: It 's {disfmarker}
PhD H: and it doesn't matter too much .
PhD E: Um , yeah , I did that but it doesn't matter on SpeechDat - Car , but , it matters , uh , a lot on TI - digits .
PhD B: Using the clean filter .
PhD H: It 's better to use clean .
PhD E: Yeah , d uh , it 's much better when you {disfmarker} we used the clean derived LDA filter .
PhD H: Mm - hmm . Maybe you can do d also this .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD H: To use clean speech .
PhD B: Yeah , I 'll try .
PhD E: Uh , but , yeah , Sunil in {disfmarker} in your result it 's {disfmarker}
PhD B: I {disfmarker} I 'll try the cle No , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} my result is with the noisy {disfmarker} noisy LDA .
PhD E: It 's with the noisy one . Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: Oh !
PhD B: It 's with the noisy . Yeah . It 's {disfmarker} it 's not the clean LDA .
PhD E: So {disfmarker}
Professor D: Um {disfmarker}
PhD B: It 's {disfmarker} In {disfmarker} in the front sheet , I have like {disfmarker} like the summary . Yeah .
Professor D: And {disfmarker} and your result {comment} is with the {disfmarker}
PhD E: It 's with the clean LDA .
PhD B: Oh . This is {disfmarker} Your results are all with the clean LDA result ?
PhD H: Yeah , with the clean LDA .
PhD B: OK . @ @ .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD B:
PhD E: And in your case it 's all {disfmarker} all noisy ,
PhD H: Is that the reason ?
PhD B: All noisy , yeah .
PhD E: yeah . But {disfmarker}
PhD H: And {disfmarker}
PhD B: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD B: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD E: But I observe my case it 's in , uh , uh , at least on SpeechDat - Car it doesn't matter but TI - digits it 's like two or three percent absolute , uh , {comment} better .
PhD B: On TI - digits this matters . Absolute . Uh {disfmarker}
Professor D: So you really might wanna try the clean I think .
PhD E: So if {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I will have to look at it . Yeah , that 's true .
Professor D: Yeah . Yeah , that could be sizeable right there .
PhD H: And this is everything .
Professor G: Yeah .
Professor D: OK .
Professor G: Maybe you {disfmarker} you are leaving in {disfmarker} in about two weeks Carmen . No ?
PhD H: Yeah .
Professor G: Yeah . So I mean , if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if I would put it {disfmarker} put on the head of a project mana manager {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I I would say , uh , um {disfmarker} I mean there is not so much time left now .
Professor D: Be my guest .
Professor G: I mean , if {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um , what {disfmarker} what I would do is I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would pick @ @ {comment} the best consolation , which you think , and {vocalsound} c create {disfmarker} create all the results for the whole database that you get to the final number as {disfmarker} as Sunil did it
PhD H: And prepare at the s
Professor G: and {vocalsound} um and maybe also to {disfmarker} to write somehow a document where you describe your approach , and what you have done .
PhD H: Yeah , I was thinking to do that next week .
Professor D: Yeah .
Professor G: Yeah .
Professor D: Yeah , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll borrow the head back and {disfmarker} and agree . Yeah ,
PhD H: Yeah , I wi I {disfmarker} I will do that next week .
Professor D: that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} Right . In fact , actually I g I guess the , uh {disfmarker} the Spanish government , uh , requires that anyway . They want some kind of report from everybody who 's in the program .
PhD H: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: So . And of course I 'd {disfmarker} we 'd {disfmarker} we 'd like to see it too . So ,
PhD H: OK .
Professor D: yeah .
PhD F: So , um , what 's {disfmarker} Do you think we , uh , should do the digits or skip it ? Or what are {disfmarker} what do you think ?
Professor D: Uh , we have them now ?
PhD F: Yeah , got them .
Professor D: Uh , why don why don't we do it ?
PhD F: OK .
Professor D: Just {comment} {disfmarker} just take a minute .
PhD H: I can send yet .
PhD F: Would you pass those down ?
Professor D: Oh ! Sorry .
PhD F: OK , um , so I guess I 'll go ahead . Um ,
Professor D: Seat ?
PhD E: Dave ? Is it the channel , or the mike ? I don't remember . It 's the mike ?
Professor D: Mike ?
PhD E: It 's not four .
PhD H: This is date and time . No . On the channel , channel .
Professor G: What is this ?
PhD B: t
PhD F: OK , if you could just leave , um , your mike on top of your , uh , digit form I can fill in any information that 's missing .
Professor G: OK .
PhD F: That 's uh {disfmarker} I didn't get a chance to fill them out ahead of time . Yeah , we 're gonna have to fix that . Uh , let 's see , it starts with one here , and then goes around and ends with nine here .
Grad A: Seven . So I {disfmarker} I 'm eight ,
PhD F: So he 's eight ,
Grad A: you 're seven .
PhD F: you 're seven ,
Grad A: Yeah . | |
doc_133 | The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.)): I call the meeting to order. Welcome to the third meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. Pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, April20, the committee is meeting for the purposes of considering ministerial announcements, allowing members to present petitions, and questioning ministers of the crown, including the Prime Minister, in respect of the COVID-19 pandemic. I understand there's an agreement to observe a moment of silence in memory of the six members of the Canadian Armed Forces who lost their lives last Wednesday in a helicopter crash off the coast of Greece. We'll return to order. Colleagues, we meet today to continue our discussion about how our country is dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic. As we do, Canadians, like everyone around the world, are doing their best to live their lives until things improve. Meanwhile, as we look towards the future, I believe that it is also important to remember our past and to continue to mark the important moments in our shared history. At this very moment, the Dominion Carillonneur, Dr. Andrea McCrady, is performing a special recital to commemorate the 75th anniversary of the liberation of the Netherlands by the Canadian Forces. In May 1945, Canadian Forces played a major role in liberating the Dutch people from Nazi occupation. May 5 is now a national holiday in the Netherlands that commemorates the event and the great friendship that now exists between our two countries. Today's meeting is taking place by video conference. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Please be aware that the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee. Let me remind you that, as in the House or in committee, members may not take photographs of their colleagues or film the proceedings. In order to facilitate the work of our interpreters and ensure orderly meetings, I will outline a few rules. Interpretation of this video conference will be done as it is at normal committee meetings and in the House. At the bottom of your screen, you can choose floor, English or French. As you have seen, I change as I am speaking. I have now switched over to English in order to speak English. If you look at the bottom, you have a little flag that indicates whether it's English or French, and that's how we will be speaking. It makes it easier. That was where we had a little bit of a glitch in the last session. I understand that there are no statements by ministers. We can now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that petitions presented during a meeting of the special committee must already have been certified by the clerk of petitions. In addition, to ensure that the petition is considered to have been properly presented, the certificate of the petition and each page of the petition for petitions certified in a previous Parliament should be emailed to the committee no later than 6 p.m. on the day before the committee. I thank all the members for their usual co-operation. Thank you all. Now we'll proceed to presenting petitions. Our first petition comes from the honourable member for Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, Mr. Genuis.
Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC): Mr. Chair, I'm pleased to be presenting two petitions today. The first petition is with respect to government Bill C-7. Petitioners raised concerns that this bill removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime. It includes removing the mandatory 10-day reflection period and the number of required witnesses who will witness a person's consent. The petitioners urge the House of Commons to immediately discontinue the removal of safeguards for people requesting euthanasia, and to put in place additional measures to protect vulnerable people. This would require that bill to be amended or not passed. The second petition is with respect to Senate public bill S-204. This is on organ harvesting and trafficking. Petitioners call on members of the House, and hopefully the Senate as well, to support Bill S-204, which would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent. It would also create provisions under which a person could be made inadmissible to Canada if they had been involved in organ harvesting or trafficking. Thank you very much.
The Chair: Thank you. I want to remind all the members that there are specific headsets that have been mandated to all of us. If you don't have one, please talk to your IT ambassador and they will get one to you as quickly as possible. The reason for them is not so much for what you hear, but that our interpreters are working and there are work conditions that really make it difficult. Part of that is not having the appropriate boom on your headset, which will make it very difficult for them to hear and interpret for our members. Now we go to the member for BeachesEast York, Mr. Erskine-Smith.
Mr. Nathaniel Erskine-Smith (BeachesEast York, Lib.): Mr. Chair, I had to learn how to tie my tie all over again. It's been so long. I want to thank Jenna Robar, who's led this petition e-2453. The petitioners have noted that there are approximately 60 indigenous languages in Canada and that 2019, last year, was declared by the UN to be the year of indigenous languages. They draw attention to article 13 of the UNDRIP and to the TRC's calls to action numbers 13 to 16. Fundamentally, they call upon the Government of Canada to recognize indigenous languages as being official languages of Canada and to have each language recognized nationally, with implementations on regional and provincial levels, acknowledging that many regions have different languages.
Mr. Eric Duncan (StormontDundasSouth Glengarry, CPC): Mr. Chair, I am proud to present a petition on behalf of one of my constituents, Myles Lynch of St. Andrews West in my riding. Myles made history as the first Canadian ever to survive three double-lung transplants. Myles lives with cystic fibrosis and has had three lung transplants in the last five years, and he's only 22 years old. Myles created a documentary called 8 Thousand Myles, which had a few showings in my riding. It documented his journey across Canada. One thing Myles has been advocating for is the creation of a national opt-out program for organ donation. Myles asked me how he could help raise awareness of that issue. I mentioned to him e-petitions online and getting people across the country to sign them. I am proud to have this certified today, with 1,318 signatures, asking the Standing Committee on Health to launch a study into the feasibility of the creation of a national opt-out program. I give kudos to Myles not only for his strength personally but also for his advocacy for others and for saving lives in our country by advocating for a better and an improved organ donation system. Kudos to Myles. I'm proud to present this petition today.
Mr. Peter Julian (New WestminsterBurnaby, NDP): Mr. Chair, I'm very pleased to present this certified petition on behalf of several dozen residents of Toronto, Mississauga and Brampton, Ontario, who add their voices to those of the thousands upon thousands of Canadians who have signed similar petitions. Given that Canadians are living through unprecedented, catastrophic climate events, and at the same time our society, as you know, is suffering from worsening social and economic inequalitieshalf of Canadian families are only $200 away from insolvency in any given monthand particularly given the pandemic that we are currently experiencing, these petitioners are calling on the Government of Canada to support motion M-1, a made-in-Canada green new deal that I am presenting in front of the House of Commons. It calls on Canada to take bold and rapid action to tackle the climate emergency, and to put in place a shift to a clean and renewable energy economy.
Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP): Mr. Chair, it's an honour to table a petition on behalf of constituents from CourtenayAlberni. They are concerned, obviously, about fentanyl-related deaths. Over 12,000 Canadians have died over the last four years due to fentanyl-poisoned sources. They cite that the current war on drugs has been costly and grossly ineffective; that it has resulted in widespread stigma towards addiction and against those who use illicit drugs; and that criminalization of particular substances has resulted in the establishment of a drug trade that now trafficks dangerous and lethal products such as fentanyl. They are citing that regulating to ensure safe sources, with proper measures and bylaws, will reduce the criminal element associated with street drugs. Problematic substance use is a health issue and is not resolved through criminalization of personal possession and consumption. They are calling on the Government of Canada to declare the current opioid overdose and fenanyl poisoning crisis a national public health emergency under the Emergencies Act. They are calling for the government to reform current drug policy to decriminalize personal possession, as has been done in Portugal and other countries, and to create with urgency and immediacy a system to provide safe and unadulterated access to substances so that people who use substances experimentally, recreationally or chronically are not at imminent risk of overdose due to a contaminated source.
Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC): Mr. Chair, I'm presenting a petition today that contains the concerns of Canadians in my riding with the government's approach to firearms legislation and regulation. The petition highlights that the Liberal government's December 5, 2019, Speech from the Throne contains numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation; that the term military-style assault rifles is a political phrase undefined in Canadian law; that municipalities are constitutionally unable to enact criminal law to ban handguns in their jurisdictions; that the experts, including chiefs of police, agree that banning firearms and requiring law-abiding gun owners to follow more unnecessary red tape will not increase public safety; that the majority of guns used in violent crimes are smuggled into Canada from the United States; and that the Liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs, drug traffickers and illegal gun traffickers responsible for violence in our communities. The petitioners in MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon are calling on the government to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed, RCMP-vetted Canadians; and to focus our limited resources on anti-gang enforcement, on reducing the involvement of at-risk youth and gangs, on mental health and on providing the Canada Border Services Agency with the tools they need to do their job effectively.
The Chair: Very good. That's all for petitions today. We will now proceed to the questioning of ministers. I would like to remind honourable members that no member shall be recognized for more than five minutes at a time and that members may split their time with one or more members by so indicating to the chair. Ministers responding to the question should do so by simply turning on their mike and speaking. I want to again remind honourable members to use the boom on the official headsets so that everything runs smoothly, not only for ourselves but also for the interpreters. We start the question period with Mr.Paul-Hus.
Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus (CharlesbourgHaute-Saint-Charles, CPC): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Although we are right in the middle of a pandemic and the government has agreed to set aside all parliamentary business in order to concentrate solely on eliminating the virus in Canada and its impacts, the Prime Minister is deceiving Canadians by introducing measures to punish law-abiding firearm owners. Why?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister): Mr.Chair, I feel that all Canadians were affected by the massacre in Nova Scotia. Once again, too many families are facing tragedy and tremendous grief. During the last election campaign, we promised to ban military-style assault weapons, and that is exactly what we have done. We will be working with members from all parties in order to continue strengthening gun control. It is a shame that, once more, the Conservatives do not want to strengthen gun control in the country.
Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: Mr.Chair, I understand the Prime Minister's reply. However, I would like to know whether he considers that, with this order in council, organized crime, street gangs and other criminals are simply going to turn in their weapons.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: This is indeed only a first step, but it is an important one. We are doing other things to eliminate or restrict handguns in our municipalities, to strengthen the control at our borders, and to implement other measures. I am pleased to hear the hon. member speak of those measures, because we are going to work together in the House to strengthen gun control. I hope that the Conservative Party will be part of that discussion in a positive way, in order to keep Canadians safe.
Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: Mr.Chair, I can simply say to the Prime Minister that the Conservative Party has always been committed to battling criminals, not law-abiding citizens. Speaking of criminals, we know that, even before the pandemic, the Prime Minister had asked the Parole Board of Canada to release prisoners more easily and more quickly. Now we are learning that, because of the pandemic, some releases are happening very quickly. The Minister of Public Safety told us that the people were approaching the end of their sentences or were older, but we are learning in the media that some dangerous criminals are being released. Can the Prime Minister give us an explanation?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: The protection, the safety and the health of all Canadians are important for the government. This is why we have taken additional measures in our correctional services to ensure that guards and inmates are protected. We have indeed opened the doors to some more speedy releases, but only in very specific cases that present little or no danger for Canadians. We have managed to find the right balance. We must protect Canadians and we must also ensure that they are safe. Those two things go hand-in-hand.
Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: So is the Prime Minister confirming to us that no dangerous criminals have been precipitously released so that they do not have to experience COVID-19 within the walls?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: There are very strict rules and principles to ensure that people posing a threat to society are not released.
The Chair: Mr.Paul-Hus, you have one minute left.
Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: Thank you, Mr.Chair. The Chinese government has not been transparent with the rest of the world about the coronavirus. Australia asked for an in-depth investigation, but has received threats from the communist regime. Is Canada going to stand by its allies in the Five Eyes and demand that the Chinese government be completely transparent?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: We continue to stand in solidarity with our allies, including the Five Eyes, as they have stood in solidarity with Canada in terms of the two Canadians who have been unjustly detained for a long time in China. In the coming months and years, we expect to obtain answers to all our questions about the origin of this pandemic, including questions that are important for China. At the same time, we are going to work hard to ensure that all Canadians have the equipment and the protection they need to get through this pandemic.
The Chair: We now move to Mr.Blanchet.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ): Thank you, Mr.Chair. I am sorry that I do not have my official headset. I was elsewhere, and I did not bring it with me. I hope that you can still hear me properly. For some days, discussions have been going on between people from the Bloc Qubcois and people from the government with a view to collaboratively coming up with a proposal for seniors in Quebec and Canada. The gist of our proposal is to temporarily increase the old age security by about $25per week, or $110per month. By the way, I hate the term "old age security. I prefer "senior security. The discussion has been going on for some time and it's a proposal that we made in the election campaign. We are asking for it to be done at this point, at least temporarily. Parliament stopped sitting in the middle of March. We are now in May, and seniors still have nothing. They are impatient themselves, and we spend a good part of our days answering them. Given that impatience, I realized I should not be the one answering them, it should be the Prime Minister. So here is my question for the Prime Minister: what are you doing to seek a solution that will increase the purchasing power of seniors in Quebec and Canada in the very short term?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Clearly, seniors need support and significant services from us because of COVID-19. Our priority was to implement income replacement benefits for workers who have lost their jobs because of COVID-19. Then we announced different measures, including measures for seniors. The most vulnerable seniors are going to receive reimbursement of the GST, which will help them very quickly. We have also reduced by 25% the minimum amount that must be withdrawn from registered retirement income funds. We have also channelled $9million through the United Way, to help the most vulnerable seniors. Absolutely, I recognize that more must be done. I am very pleased that we have been able to work with other parliamentarians, including those in the Bloc Qubcois, to hear these concerns and to find the best way to help seniors in the short term. In terms of the pandemic, they have concerns about their physical security, but also about their financial security. We will have more to say about this soon.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: In the last few hours, the Prime Minister has indicated that he could need the cooperation of other parties, including the Bloc Qubcois, on a completely different matter. We are very open to that discussion, but we want the same openness when we are asking for something to serve the people of Quebec. The cost of a basket of groceries has increased for seniors, as it has for everyone else. It's true for all seniors over 65years old, of course. The current old age pension represents less than half of the Canada emergency student benefit. It represents less than one third of the basic Canada emergency response benefit. Seniors in my constituency, as in any other of the 338constituencies, are asking what we are doing. They are asking how there can be nothing for them. When will there be something for them? I want to be able to give them an answer of some kind. What is the Prime Minister's answer? I will repeat it to them.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: There will be announcements in the coming days on the way in which we will be able to help seniors, particularly the most vulnerable seniors. We recognize that the cost of a basket of groceries is increasing for everyone. That is why we have to do better for our seniors. There are horror stories, whether about the CHSLDs, or about our most vulnerable seniors across the country. Far too many families are experiencing tremendous grief. There are seniors who are alone, seniors who are afraid of falling ill without ever seeing their grandchildren or their children again. We have to be there for those who belong to that great generation that fought for us during the second world war. Now we have to fight for them in their homes. That is exactly what we are going to do.
The Chair: We'll go to the next question. Ms. Collins.
Ms. Laurel Collins (Victoria, NDP): Mr. Chair, every day I hear from people who are struggling to pay their bills and to keep a roof over their head. Instead of making sure that Canadians get the help they need, the government has created complicated programs that are still letting people fall through the cracks. If the Prime Minister won't commit to a universal benefit, will he at least commit to removing the restrictive eligibility criteria that are leaving the most vulnerable people behind?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, we knew, when this pandemic hit, that we needed to help Canadians who were suffering from coast to coast to coast, particularly the most vulnerable. That is why we moved forward rapidly with the Canada emergency response benefit, which has helped over seven million individual Canadians and has made a huge difference. We had to move very quickly to get this money out to people, and that is exactly what we did. We also recognized that there would be a need to do more. That is why since that moment, we have continually worked on reaching out to the most vulnerable and supporting them as well. We have more to do, but we knew that targeted approaches were what was most needed.
Ms. Laurel Collins: Mr. Chair, the government continues to leave people behind. I spoke to a woman in my riding who was homeless last year. She recently found a job and a place to live. However, because she didn't make $5,000 last year, when the pandemic hit she didn't qualify for any benefits. She didn't qualify, but she is one of the people who need it the most. I'm wondering why the Prime Minister doesn't think she deserves our support.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, our focus throughout this crisis has been on helping the most vulnerable with targeted measures that will lift Canadians out of poverty and will support them. Over the past five years, we've lifted over a million people out of poverty in this country, and we've continued to put the most vulnerable at the heart of everything we're doing. We will continue to. We've put significant investments forward to charitable organizations and foundations that are helping the most vulnerable. At the same time, we will continue to look for more ways to help even more than the seven million Canadians who successfully receive the CERB. We recognize there's more to do, and we will continue trying to do everything we can in this unprecedented situation.
Ms. Laurel Collins: Mr. Chair, the government is weirdly committed to eligibility criteria that result in regular people not getting the support they need, but not so committed to criteria for corporations and billionaires who get our help. If a company is cheating the public, using offshore tax havens not to pay its fair share, it should not be eligible for government bailouts or benefits. Other countries, like Poland, Denmark and France, have made this commitment, and if they can do it, so can we. The Prime Minister said one thing one day and another the next. Will he commit now that if a company has money in offshore tax havens, it will not receive public funds?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, the measures we've put forward are focused on helping workers who lose their jobs, regardless of the companies they work for. It is a shame to hear the NDP, which used to be the party of workers, choosing to judge workers by which multinational they work for. We have moved forward with a wage subsidy such that the employers are obliged to pass every single penny on to the workers. That is not help for the companies. That is help for the workers, and that has been our focus all the way through: ordinary Canadians who need support because they are unable to work because of COVID-19. That has been our priority, and that is what Canadians need right now. Of course, we continue to have very strong measures to fight against tax avoidance and tax evasion. We spent a billion dollars to strengthen our Ms. Laurel Collins: Mr. Chair, can I ask my last question? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: We will continue to do that.
The Chair: I'm just going to pause the time for a moment. I want to remind honourable members that we're trying to stay within committee rules, which state that the length of a question and the length of an answer should be approximately the same amount of time. I just want to remind our members of that. I'll go back to Ms. Collins. She has about 45 seconds left, and hopefully that's about half and half for the question and the answer. Ms. Collins.
Ms. Laurel Collins: Thanks so much, Mr. Chair. My last question is about housing and homelessness. My community was facing a crisis long before the pandemic hit, and now people who are living on the streets or in parks don't have the luxury of following public health advice and just staying home. In Victoria, the province and the municipality have stepped up with solutions to house people, at least for the short term, in local hotels. Will the federal government respond to this immediate crisis and provide the needed investments in long-term, stable housing?
The Chair: The right honourable Prime Minister, in 25 seconds or less, please.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Yes, Mr. Chair, we have moved forward with a historic national housing strategy that puts $40 billion toward housing. Working with partners, we have reduced poverty by over a million people in this country, but there is more to do. We are reducing homelessness by half with historic investments. We recognize that during this pandemic there's even more to do for vulnerable Canadians, and we are partnering with orders of government to make sure that happens.
Mr. Jol Godin (PortneufJacques-Cartier, CPC): A point of order, Mr.Chair.
The Chair: Order. Mr.Godin has a point of order.
Mr. Jol Godin: Mr.Chair, I cannot hear the French interpretation. Could we please check so that I can hear in French what the Prime Minister is saying?
The Chair: Okay. Can we check that?
Mr. Jol Godin: Thank you.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: I can try speaking English. I believe I was on the English tab, as is important. Are you hearing the translation now?
The Chair: That is exactly what the issue was. I just want to point that out to all the members. I'm speaking English right now and I'm on the English toggle at the bottom of the screen. It does create a bit of a disjoint when we're speaking, but it's the way to get around that so we have interpretation that works for everyone. The next question will go to the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Scheer.
Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Chair, as this is our first opportunity to meet in any forum, I want to take this opportunity to express my condolences to the families of the brave men and women who lost their lives in the helicopter crash. I know that I speak for all parliamentarians when I extend our sympathy to their families and loved ones. Mr. Chair, I want to raise with the Prime Minister an issue that I've raised several times before, and that is a gap in the wage subsidy program. There is a company in my riding that employs thousands of people across the country. Last year, they acquired another company. Those companies separately would qualify for the wage subsidy, but because of rules that the government designed, together they do not. Even though collectively they have experienced a massive drop in revenue and would otherwise be eligible, so far they've been unable to get confirmation that they will be able to access the program. As a result, thousands of jobs are threatened. Will the Prime Minister be able to deliver some good news to people who work for Brandt Tractor all across the country?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: I thank the honourable member for his question and for his advocacy for his community and businesses in his riding. As I told him when we spoke directly, Finance officials have been directly in contact with the company in his riding. We recognize that there are particular elements in regard to this company that are challenging around application for the wage subsidy, but I know that Finance officials are working very hard to try to make sure that everyone who needs the subsidy gets it, so that the workers in his community can get the support they need.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: The Prime Minister knows that there are many companies across the country that fall into this category as well, so we're hoping for some good news. Just flagging the time and date, it is well into May now and important decisions have to be made in very short order. There are other aspects of the government's plans to help get people through this crisis that are also causing people to fall through the cracks. The plan to help businesses with rent applies only after a business has lost 70% of their revenue. As provinces start to open up, many companies are going to be faced with a very difficult decision of operating at perhaps 35% or 45% of regular revenues. They will not be able to access these programs and, in many cases, there is going to be a disincentive to reopen and put people back to work. Will the Prime Minister amend these programs to provide for more flexibility so that more and more Canadians can start to return to work in the weeks ahead?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, we are in an unprecedented crisis and we had to move quickly to support workers and to support families across the country, and that's exactly what we did. We're going to continue to work to try to respond to the reality that people and businesses are facing right across the country. I am eager to be faced with the challenge of how to ease off in these measures so that people can get back to work. We are getting closer to that point, but we are not there yet. We are still focused very much on giving the supports to workers and families that are so necessary in this time of crisis. As different provinces move forward towards reopening, as we look at different paths forward, I know that I will be able to count on all members in the House and, indeed, on Canadians from coast to coast to coast to figure out together what the best way will be to move forward on keeping us safe and restoring economic activity in the right way. That will be good to work on together once we get there.
The Chair: We have about a minute left for maybe a 30-second question and a 30-second answer. Mr. Scheer.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, no one is disputing the need to move quickly. We are now in May, though, and these programs have been announced for weeks. Canadians have been accessing them. The problems with them have been flagged for the government for weeks as well, but we're also going to see an additional challenge, where people who are receiving the emergency response benefit, who may have the option to go back to work and work some hours, are faced with a hard cap of $1,000 a month before they lose the CERB. Conservatives are proposing a progressive system, a more flexible system, where people will be able to earn more without losing their benefits as businesses ramp up but before normal working hours are restored. Again, will the Prime Minister build in some flexibility to lift the restrictive ceiling on what people can earn before losing benefits so that it always pays more to work?
The Chair: I believe the timer is telling all of us that the time is up, but I'll give the right honourable Prime Minister about 30 seconds to answer that, please.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Our priority was getting support for Canadians right across the country with the CERB, with the wage subsidy and with other measures for students, for seniors, for farmers and for agricultural producers. That has been our priority, and that's what we have worked on. I hear the concerns that the Conservative Party has around disincentives. We are going to work with communities and with industry as we look to reopen, to make sure that people have opportunities to work and are not penalized for it. However, our overarching priority was allowing Canadians to be confident in their ability to stay home, care for their loved ones, buy groceries and pay their rent so that we could keep safe during this pandemic. That's exactly what we did.
The Chair: We'll go to Ms. Gladu now.
Ms. Marilyn Gladu (SarniaLambton, CPC): Mr. Chair, seniors in my riding are struggling. We've heard the Prime Minister admit that fixed incomes for some of them are down, rent is increasing and the price of groceries is increasing. He's been saying for weeks that in the coming days, something would be announced for seniors. The fact is that the Liberals ran on an election promise to increase the old age security. Which of the days in the coming weeks will they keep their promise to seniors?
Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors): Mr. Chair, after a lifetime of hard work, of course Canadians deserve peace of mind when it comes to their retirement security. COVID-19 is definitely having a disproportionate impact on seniors. They have a greater need for services and supports. Happily, their pensions and their benefits are still flowing, unlike for so many of those who have lost their jobs, but it's still tough. We introduced measures Ms. Marilyn Gladu: Which day? Hon. Deb Schulte: at the beginning of April. People received a GST credit, a supplementary payment that was $400 on average for single seniors and $600 for couples. That was of significant help to low- and moderate-income seniors.
The Chair: We have a point of order from Ms. Gladu.
Ms. Marilyn Gladu: Yes, Mr. Chair. I think you had reminded us as members that the amount of time for the answer should be similar to the amount of time for the question. I would just ask the minister to keep to that. I would like to go to my second question.
The Chair: I want to remind all honourable members to keep their answers as well as their questions as concise as possible. Ms. Gladu.
Ms. Marilyn Gladu: Very good, Mr. Chair. My riding is on the border of Canada and the U.S. We see a number of inconsistencies in what is considered essential travel with regard to the U.S. and actually in the interpretation of different CBSA agents. While we have Americans coming over to buy cheaper prescription medications and to fish, individuals in my riding who are trying to get auditors over so that they can be approved for export businesses are being declined. We have people who have purchased masts from Canadian producers for their boats, and who want to come and pick them up, who are not being allowed to do that. People trying to sell plasma into the U.S. are being denied. When will they clarify the rules to the CBSA agents so that essential travel and trade and commerce, including individual commerce, is understood?
Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness): Mr. Chair, we have implemented very rigorous rules that have been well documented and understood by CBSA to stop all non-essential travel. Those measures have been very successful. We've seen a 99% reduction in international travel coming into Canada. At the same time, we recognize the importance of maintaining essential supply routes so that goods and services could reach Canada and we could put groceries on our shelves. We also recognize the important work that essential workers do on both sides of the border. We have provided CBSA with clarification. Their interpretation of those rules has been broadly consistent. I've heard from a number of our colleagues in caucus with concerns about individual cases. When we receive those inquiries, we follow up immediately. I want to assure the member that we'll continue to do that. The work we are doing to stop non-essential travel has been important for the health and safety of Canadians, and we will continue with that work.
Ms. Marilyn Gladu: Mr. Chair, my next question has to do with sole proprietor businesses. We see that many of them are not eligible for any of the benefit packages that have been rolled outEI, CERB, the wage subsidy, etc. What is the government going to do to address sole proprietors who are currently falling through the cracks?
Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance): Mr. Chair, first, let me say that we absolutely recognize there are businesses across the country of all sizes that are finding this to be extremely difficult. The intent of the measures we put forward is obviously not only to give individuals a bridge but to give businesses a bridge. We are looking at ways that we can ensure that the Canada emergency business account has the broadest possible application. More than 500,000 businesses have already been approved for these loans, representing over $20 billion. We are looking at ways we can consider that eligibility process, recognizing that we need to make sure that the program continues to have its desired impact, and we will have more to say on that.
The Chair: The next question will go to Mr. Arnold.
Mr. Mel Arnold (North OkanaganShuswap, CPC): Mr. Chair, this is my first appearance, so I hope you can hear me okay.
The Chair: We can hear you fine. Please proceed.
Mr. Mel Arnold: Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's good to see everyone's faces. On April 3, the fisheries minister said opening dates would be determined by harvesters. Since then the minister has overruled the will of harvesters in Prince Edward Island and in the gulf who voted to start their seasons on time, but she has allowed harvesters from her own riding to proceed with their seasons as scheduled, giving them access to markets weeks before their competitors. This double standard is severely unfair and Atlantic harvesters are furious, as demonstrated during the protests on the Canso Causeway yesterday. When will the minister stop abusing her position and start respecting fish harvesters by opening up lobster fishing areas 23, 24 and 26?
Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard): Mr. Chair, when making decisions with regard to when seasons open, a number of factors are taken into account. They are complex decisions that take into account what is necessary for processors to be ready for the season, what is necessary for harvesters to be ready for the season, as well socio-economic impacts on the area. We're looking at all of those measures when we make these decisions. We do not make them lightly. They are difficult decisions to make. In the decisions we've made around the gulf, one of the main things we heard from all of those areas is that it was very important for them to start on the same date. That is why the decision was made to start on the 15th of May. We're looking forward to seeing the harvesters out on the water. We're looking forward to the product that they bring in. We'll continue do everything we can to support the industry.
Mr. Mel Arnold: Thank you, Minister. I believe the time
The Chair: Excuse me. No, the hon. minister had another 15 seconds coming to her. I'd like to remind hon. members not to interrupt a person while they are speaking. I'll do my best to try to keep it about level. Maybe I'll start muting if it's necessary, but interrupting is not going to solve anything. Mr. Arnold, I'll let you continue. You have three minutes and nine seconds left.
Mr. Mel Arnold: Thank you, Mr. Chair. West coast fishing tourism is a key economic driver in British Columbia, especially in coastal communities, and yet the public fishery gets no respect from the government. Last year, the public fishery was weakened by restrictions based on ideology and not science. A year later, the fisheries minister refuses even to discuss viable, science-based solutions to conserve B.C.'s public fisheries. Does the minister and her government have a will and a plan to support Canada's west coast fisheries and the communities they sustain?
The Chair: The hon. minister in 30 seconds, please.
Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, the fishery is important in every coastal community. I recognize its value for our economy, as well as what it means to our coastal communities. That's why we continue to work with those communities and with the fisheries to make sure that we're doing everything we possibly can to support them. During these extremely difficult times, we're working on measures with the fishery in B.C., as well as on the Atlantic coast and eastern Quebec, to make sure that we're delivering for them and that all of the issues they're having are being addressed.
The Chair: Mr. Arnold.
Mr. Mel Arnold: Mr. Chair, Canada's seniors, especially those on basic incomes, are being hard hit by the COVID-19 crisis as they face new rising costs and scarcity of services. Seniors require adequate caregiver supports, physical safety and freedom to access their savings to reinforce their financial security. Why has the government failed to recognize the increasing challenges that seniors are facing? Will the government support Canada's senior citizens?
The Chair: The hon. minister in 30 seconds or less, please.
Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, I want to assure my hon. colleague that the government has been focused on seniors during this challenging time. We have provided a GST credit supplement of $400 for single seniors and $600 for couples, for low- and modest-income seniors. We have also ensured that the Canada emergency response benefit is there for seniors who have lost income due to COVID-19. We've made them eligible.
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Arnold. Mr. Arnold, you have a minutehopefully a 30-second question and a 30-second answer.
Mr. Mel Arnold: Thank you, Mr. Chair. On April 23, my colleagues and I called on the government to create a program that would match students seeking employment with employers in Canada's essential food supply chains. What has the government done to match students and other Canadians seeking employment with employers in the agriculture and agri-food sectors, including those in the fish and seafood sector?
Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion): Mr. Chair, we're doing all we can to make sure, using our existing employment programs, that we create opportunities for students to work and get work experience this summer. We know that this is going to be really tough, especially in areas like agriculture, so we have dedicated streams for agriculture sector employers to access students with help from the government, and a number of different initiatives including Canada summer jobs, which I'm really excited to see the results of in the coming days.
The Chair: Now we'll go on to the next question from Ms. Harder. Ms. Rempel, do you have a point of order?
Hon. Michelle Rempel Garner (Calgary Nose Hill, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. With my colleague, Mr. Arnold, it's the second time that I note you've threatened to cut off a Conservative microphone. I'm just wondering, given that this isn't the House of Commons and it's structured as a committee, what standing order would give you the right to cut off a member of Parliament using a mute button. It seems a little dictatorial, and I was just wondering whether you could clarify that, based on the Standing Orders.
The Chair: I don't think I threatened to use mute, but thank you for bringing that up. I am trying to keep the rules where the questions and the answers are equal, so that there are no interruptions on either side. That's how we're going to continue. I didn't use the mute. I did it verbally and I think that's a little more civil way of doing it. I hope you approve. I'm not asking you to comment on that. We'll go over to Ms. Harder. Thank you.
Hon. Michelle Rempel Garner: But, on the point of order, Mr. Chair, you actually, to me, last week, and to Mr. Arnold, did suggest that you were going to use the mute button.
The Chair: I believe that if we take everything out and go over it.... Bring the papers with the actual verbiage on it where I threatened, and we'll go over it, but I don't think this is the venue to do that. If you want to bring forward a point of order, I'm all in favour of it.
Hon. Michelle Rempel Garner: Well, I am bringing forward a point of order. I've asked you to clarify
The Chair: Very good. We'll look into it and get back to you. Thank you. We'll go on to Ms. Harder.
Ms. Rachael Harder (Lethbridge, CPC): Canadians have outrightly expressed outrage and disappointment with the government's initiative to put a gun ban in place. Does the minister stand by his comment that these changes would have prevented the tragedy in Nova Scotia?
The Chair: The honourable minister in 15 seconds or less, please.
Hon. Bill Blair: We have heard from health professionals, women's rights organizations, victims groups and the police and our unions. They're all very supportive of the government's measure to ban weapons that have no place in a civil society and were designed to kill people.
Ms. Rachael Harder: It's interesting that the minister is misleading Canadians in that comment because the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police has actually said that a gun ban will do nothing of the sort, that it actually will not protect Canadians. So I'd be curious. How many criminals will see guns seized because of the changes that have been implemented by the Liberal government?
Hon. Bill Blair: Yes, let's actually quote what the police have said. The Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police said that they support a prohibition on all military-designed assault rifles. The chief in Toronto said that taking those assault rifles off the streets contributes to public safety, and the Canadian Association of Police Chiefs has declared that military assault rifles are produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and they urged successive governments to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles.
Ms. Rachael Harder: The answer to that question is zero. Absolutely no criminals will see their guns seized based on the Liberals' legislation that's coming forward because it actually goes after those who legally own and use their firearms. Can the Prime Minister please tell us why he decided to go after law-abiding citizens instead of actually going after criminals who have gotten their firearms in an illegal manner and then used them to commit crimes?
The Chair: The honourable minister in 25 seconds or less, please.
Hon. Bill Blair: Yes, to be very clear, the order in council actually is targeted at weapons, weapons that were designed for military use, and in their design and in their intent, to kill people, they've actually been used in this country, at cole Polytechnique; in Moncton; at a Quebec City mosque; in Fredericton; at Mayerthorpe and most recently in Nova Scotia. These are weapons that really have no place.... They are being used and have been used in Canada and around the world to commit mass murder, and in the interest of public safety and at the urging
The Chair: We'll go on to Ms. Harder.
Ms. Rachael Harder: Thank you. Now I understand the Prime Minister has his food prepared for him at 24 Sussex Drive and then it's delivered to him at the cottage where he lives. Contrary to his privileged understanding, food actually originates with farmers. Now, they're in a crisis right now, which means that regular Canadians are actually at risk of not having food available for them at the grocery stores where they purchase theirs. The Canadian Federation of Agriculture requested $2.6 billion to help them out. Today, the government announced one-tenth of this amount. Why doesn't the Prime Minister care about the women and the men who work incredibly hard to keep Canada fed?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): Mr. Chair, let me assure the hon. member that our government cares very, very much about the women and men who work so hard to feed our country. Let me just say I am grateful to all the farmers, like my dad, who are out in their fields right now getting ready for seeding. We, as Canadians, are lucky to be citizens of an agricultural superpower, and our government believes in supporting our farmers and ranchers.
Ms. Rachael Harder: I'm confused as to why the Prime Minister didn't take my question, and at a bare minimum as to why the agriculture minister doesn't feel it's important enough for her to be a part of this discussion today. When we have farmers who produce for Canadians on a daily basis and they're asking some serious and some very important questions, and we don't even have a minister who's willing to come to the table and engage in this conversation, that's shameful. Several meat-packing plants have been forced to shut down because of COVID-19 and, as a result, farmers are forced to hold stock longer than expected. Cattle producers in my region are spending more than $60,000 a day to keep their livestock fed while they wait for processing plants to reopen. The amount that was announced today by the federal government is a drop in the bucket. It's a crumb. When will the government take this seriously and at least implement a set-aside program for those who are beef producers in Canada?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, let me just say that I feel there is nothing shameful at all in having me, the Deputy Prime Minister, answer questions about agriculture. I am actually very proud to speak up for Canada's amazing farmers, for our country's amazing ranchers, for our amazing pork producers and our poultry producers. I feel so close to our farmers. I love them and our government supports them. Today, we announced $252 million of support for our producers. They need it. They deserve it. We're here for them.
The Chair: Now we'll go on to Mr. Bezan.
Mr. James Bezan (SelkirkInterlakeEastman, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I too would like to express my sincere condolences to the families and friends of the six military heroes who lost their lives at sea last week. I'm sure that all members of the House stand shoulder to shoulder with the families, with the crew of the HMCS Fredericton and, indeed, with the entire Canadian Armed Forces community during this time of grief. Can the Minister of National Defence give us an update as to the Cyclone helicopter crash off the coast of Greece last week?
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan (Minister of National Defence): Mr. Chair, the deaths of the Canadian Armed Forces members are felt by all, and especially the families. Our condolences go out to them. Our number one priority is to make sure that we look after them, and that's exactly what we are doing. Currently, the investigation is ongoing. Our investigative team is currently on the ground. I actually spoke with the Italian minister of defence and he promised full support for this investigation and any support that's required.
The Chair: I'm afraid I'm going to have to cut you off there, if we're going by the rules that were pointed out by the House. Mr. Bezan.
Mr. James Bezan: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Through you to Minister Sajjan again, I'm going to change gears a bit. I know that back in early January, military intelligence through CF Intelligence Command was reporting, through the chain of command, the novel coronavirus and the outbreak in Wuhan. On what date was he, as Minister of National Defence, given his first intelligence briefing on the outbreak and the pandemic in China?
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan: Mr. Chair, we have been following this crisis from day one. We work with our Five Eyes intelligence sources and this has been a whole-of-government effort, right from the beginning. I can assure you that our response to this pandemic has been with all the necessary information. Obviously, I can't discuss the intelligence in this forum, but I can assure you that our response has been well informed with the correct information.
Mr. James Bezan: Minister Sajjan, we know that intelligence was going up the chain of command in National Defence. It was reported in the media that in early January the hierarchy within the Canadian Armed Forces was being made aware of the coronavirus outbreak. I asked you, Minister, when you became aware of it and what you did with that intelligence.
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan: Mr. Chair, I get regular briefings on intelligence. Yes, I was made aware of this in January. As with all our intelligence, we work together from a whole-of-government perspective with all of our intelligence agencies. One thing I can assure you is that our response has been well informed with all the correct information that is provided to me and other members of cabinet.
Mr. James Bezan: What was that timeline? From the time you were first told, Minister Sajjan, about the coronavirus outbreak in Wuhan, what did you do with that intelligence? When did you give it to the Prime Minister or to Minister Hajdu as the Minister of Health?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, let me say that our government's response to this global pandemic has of course been informed by the excellent work of Canadian intelligence agencies throughout. We have been working on this from very early on. On January 2, PHAC first spoke with provincial health authorities to alert them to the situation. On January 14, it convened a meeting of all provincial health authorities. In January, the Prime Minister convened a meeting of the incident response group, and in January we increased screening at all major airports. All of these actions were informed by the work of our excellent intelligence community, and of course our work with our Five Eyes, NATO and NORAD allies.
Mr. James Bezan: I want to come back
The Chair: We now move to Mr.Ste-Marie.
Mr. James Bezan: I still have 30 seconds left.
Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ): Can I go ahead, Mr.Chair?
The Chair: Yes, go ahead.
Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: Thank you, Mr.Chair. In an interview with Grald Fillion, tax expert Andr Lareau, who specializes in tax havens, pointed out that $350billion Canadian is parked in just 12tax havens. Companies are using tax havens for financing, operations and intellectual property activities. Mr.Lareau also notes that the government is aware that all of this Canadian money is stashed in tax havens but is doing nothing about it. He said that it's time for Canada to tackle the problem given that it has a $250-billion deficit, and that if it doesn't act now to change things, it never will. Is the government going to seize this opportunity to outlaw the corporate use of tax havens?
Hon. Diane Lebouthillier (Minister of National Revenue): Mr.Chair, as soon as we took office, in 2015, our government made cracking down on tax evaders in Canada and abroad a priority. That's precisely why we put nearly a billion dollars towards that effort. I realize that my fellow member is impatient, but he has to understand that this is a very complex issue. Under our leadership, in three years, the Canada Revenue Agency has undertaken twice as many audits related to offshore tax evasion as it did in the 10years the Conservatives were in power. As we speak, the agency is conducting more than 50criminal investigations tied to international tax evasion. I repeat, this is a top priority for our government.
Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: You're right, I am very impatient, because whenever I bring up the fact that companies are using tax havens legally, the minister misses the point and tells me that she is going after fraudsters. I am talking about the legal use of tax havens by companies. Since Parliament began sitting virtually, it's been mentioned a few times that Denmark and Poland have decided to deal with the issue. Even France's finance minister, Bruno LeMaire, said that companies with subsidiaries in tax havens would not be eligible for public assistance. We hear thePrime Minister and other government officials say all the time that the wage subsidies are going to workers, so I'd like to cite another examplebanks. The government is injecting huge amounts of cash into the financial system and repurchasing troubled assets in massive quantities, and yet, the five major banks in Toronto, alone, are continuing to save billions of dollars every year by artificially redirecting their profits to tax havens. This is unacceptable. This has nothing to do with wages for workers, and everything to do with the repurchase of troubled assets, cash flow and billions of dollars that the government could be going after. Is the government going to seize this opportunity to make the corporate use of tax havens illegal?
Hon. Diane Lebouthillier: Mr.Chair, our government is taking unprecedented steps through the Canada emergency wage subsidy measure to support businesses and workers affected by COVID-19. This is largely a trust-based program, and we will not tolerate abuse. Anyone who tries to bypass the rules will face serious consequences. Applicants have to designate an individual to attest to the truth of their claim. What's more, any employer receiving the subsidy who is deemed ineligible will have to repay the full amount. Anyone who abuses the program could face a fine of up to 225% of the wage subsidy amount and up to five years in prison. The Canada Revenue Agency also has a myriad of tools at its disposal to detect a fraudulent claim. As I mentioned, cracking down on tax evasion is a priority for our government.
The Chair: Mr.Ste-Marie, you have about 30seconds to ask your question, and about the same for the answer.
Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: Thank you, Mr.Chair. That's an excellent answer, but it has nothing to do with my question. The Minister of Finance has the power to fix the problem now. Although completely immoral, the use of tax havens by companies is legal under section5907 of the Income Tax Regulations. Through simple regulatory amendments, the finance minister could put an end to this kind of abuse. We are going to have a $250-billion deficit to pay off, and everyone is going to have to chip in, including the rich who are currently taking advantage of the system.
Hon. Diane Lebouthillier: Mr.Chair, thanks to a historic billion-dollar investment, our government has given the agency the resources it needs to do the job, and we are starting to see results. I set up an expert advisory committee to provide us with guidance and recommendations. We tightened the rules for the voluntary disclosures program. We signed tax information exchange agreements with a number of countries. We audit four jurisdictions a year. We also work closely with the OECD.
The Chair: We now move on to another member. The next questioner is Mr. Rogers.
Mr. Churence Rogers (BonavistaBurinTrinity, Lib.): Mr. Chair, I'm sharing my time slot with the member for SurreyNewton. In the wake of COVID-19, so many Canadians have been affected in so many ways. Financial loss and other burdens are having a huge impact on families across our country. I'm proud of how the Government of Canada has been beside Canadians through every step of this pandemic and has supported Canadians when they needed it most. In BonavistaBurinTrinity and across our country, our commercial fishery has seen many challenges and impacts. Last week, my colleague, the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, announced an investment that will ensure resilience of the food system by allowing Canada's fish and seafood processing sector to safely and efficiently process, store, package and distribute healthy, high-quality products on to the plates of Canadians. The fish harvesters in my riding are fearful of what will happen within this industry and their immediate futures. They are facing a reduction in available markets and market prices. They are asking what our government is putting in place to assist in these extremely challenging times. When can we expect to hear an answer to our harvesters' requests for assistance?
Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, I want to thank my colleague from BonavistaBurinTrinity for keeping us well aware of what's happening in his riding with harvesters and with processors. We know how important the fish and seafood sector is to our rural communities, our coastal communities. It's the backbone and the lifeblood of our communities and that's why we want to be there to support them. We've already taken steps by making sure that the CERB is now able to be accessed by people who are seasonal workers. As well, we are making sure that people who are running out of fishers EI are also able to qualify for it. We also have made an investment of $62.5 million to support our processors to make sure they are able to be ready for the challenges that they are going to face because of COVID-19. We know there is more to do. We know that the harvesters need support. We are working with our partners across industry to make sure we're hearing what their major concerns are. We know they are going to have some very challenging times this season. We will have more to say about that and what we will be able to do in the coming days.
The Chair: The next questioner is Mr. Dhaliwal.
Mr. Sukh Dhaliwal (SurreyNewton, Lib.): Mr. Chair, in my riding of SurreyNewton, I'm in close contact with businesses that represent all
The Chair: We have a point of order. Mr. Kurek.
Mr. Damien Kurek (Battle RiverCrowfoot, CPC): Sorry, but there seems to be an issue with the audio. I'm unable to hear the honourable member.
The Chair: It is very faint. Mr. Dhaliwal, can you check your audio to make sure everything's working well?
Mr. Sukh Dhaliwal: It was
The Chair: There we go. It's fine now. I think what happened was the boom had fallen down and it wasn't being picked up. There you go. Very good.
Mr. Sukh Dhaliwal: Mr. Chair, in my riding of SurreyNewton, I'm in close contact with businesses that represent all vantage points in the supply chainfrom manufacturers to retailers, transport companies to warehousing. With provinces and territories moving at different speeds and implementing different protocols for reopening the economy, there is a lot of confusion in my local business community on the timing and logistics of how this will happen. With so many different parts of the supply chain operating in different jurisdictions, and with each business serving unique roles on this spectrum, how can the federal government serve to best coordinate with the provinces and territories so that the supply chain can be implemented smoothly as we embark on our economic recovery?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank my colleague for his question and for his hard work. One of the most important things the federal government can do when it comes to the reopening of the Canadian economy is to work in close collaboration with the premiers of the provinces and territories. That's why I was so pleased that last week the Prime Minister, together with all the first ministers of the country, was able to issue a statement around the principles that will be guiding our entire country as we move towards a restart. This is so important because, as my colleague has pointed out, all of our business, our economic activity, happens across the country. It happens across provincial and territorial boundaries. I would really also like to take this opportunity to thank the first ministers across the country. They belong to different parties, but everyone has really been able to put partisanship aside. We have been able to work together in fighting coronavirus, and we are going to work together in the future to keep on fighting coronavirus and to reopen Canada. Thank you.
The Chair: The next question goes to Ms. McPherson.
Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP): Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to represent my constituents virtually during this challenging period of physical distancing. I'd like to start by asking about supports for workers. In Alberta, meat-packing plants are directly responsible for nearly a quarter of all COVID-19 cases. The government and management ignored the pleas of workers and did not put effective safety protocols in place to deal with COVID-19. Now, two workers are dead, at least six more are in intensive care and COVID-19 is spreading like wildfire through these communities. There are over 1,400 cases. Yesterday, employees were forced back to work even though their concerns had not been addressed. On March 27, regarding the CERB, the Minister of Finance said that if workers don't feel comfortable in their work, if they decide to stay home, they can apply for the benefit, yet the website says differently. Will the minister guarantee that every Canadian receiving CERB, EI or the CESB will not lose their benefits if they refuse to return to work or to accept work that is unsafe due to COVID-19?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Let me thank the member, first of all, for her really very important question. I think all of us share the concern for Canada's essential workers who are keeping us safe, putting food on our tables and often working in difficult conditions. When it comes to the Cargill plant, this is an issue that our government has been very closely engaged in. My colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, has spoken with her provincial counterpart and the head of the plant. The decisions about suspending and reopening are taken by local and provincial health authorities. To the question my colleague asked about workers, it is absolutely the case that no Canadian should feel they need to work in an environment that is unsafe, and it is also very much the case that any Canadian who is feeling unwell should stay at home. This is the way that collectively we take care of ourselves and we take care
The Chair: We will go on to Ms. McPherson for the next question.
Ms. Heather McPherson: I just want to be clear, because I'm not a hundred per cent sure that I got an answer in that response, so I'll try one more time. Knowing that workers have a fundamental right to refuse unsafe work, can the minister confirm one hundred per cent that if workers refuse unsafe work, they will be able to access the CERB, or was the Minister of Finance incorrect when he spoke on March 27?
The Chair: The honourable minister.
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: I'm sorry, but I was struggling with my mute button. I apologize. Let me just be very clear. No Canadian worker at any time should feel obliged to go to work in unsafe conditions.
Ms. Heather McPherson: But then could they access the CERB?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: In a time of coronavirus that is even more the case, and the government of course should not penalize workers for doing the right thing and declining to go to work in unsafe conditions.
The Chair: I want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the Chair to avoid back and forth, just to try to keep some order in the meeting. Ms. McPherson, please continue.
Ms. Heather McPherson: I'm sorry, Chair. I have another question on the protection for workers. At the meat-packing plant, workers are calling for the plant to be shut down. In fact, we know that 85% of workers are afraid for their safety. If the provincial government won't shut down the plant, will the federal government shut down unsafe plants through the Canadian Food Inspection Agency?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, on the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, let me be very clear that my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, has been in touch with provincial authorities. She has been in touch with the plant. The duties of the food inspection agency, of course, are to ensure that the food produced at the plant is safe. That is what inspectors are trained to do and what they are focused on. We are working closely with provincial authorities and with health authorities to ensure that
The Chair: We will go back to Ms. McPherson.
Ms. Heather McPherson: Mr. Chair, this will be one of my final questions on the meat-packing plant in Alberta. Can the finance minister please let us know if Cargill, a company that is owned by billionaires, with business in Luxembourg, a known tax haven, has received any federal funding this year for COVID-related support?
Hon. Diane Lebouthillier: This is a tough time for Canadians, and our government is doing everything it can to support them. More than 7million Canadians have applied for the Canada emergency response benefit, which the Canada Revenue Agency and Service Canada administer. I want to say how proud I am of the work the agency is doing; staff worked tirelessly to get the program up and running in record time. MinisterQualtrough is responsible for developing the eligibility criteria and processing the claims.
The Chair: We are moving on to the next question. We'll continue now with Mr. Bragdon.
Mr. Richard Bragdon (TobiqueMactaquac, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. My question today is for the Prime Minister. Potato farmers in New Brunswick and across Canada are sitting on massive stores of potatoes that were destined for the restaurant industry, but due to the pandemic, they now have no customers. It's estimated that there is $300 million worth of potatoes still sitting in storage. What is the Prime Minister's plan for the helping farmers offload these potatoes so that they are ready for the 2020 season?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, I think all of us as Canadians are proud of the great potato farmers across the country. We are aware that the coronavirus, by keeping us away from restaurants where we eat french fries, has had a profound effect on the market for potatoes. The program announced today by the Prime Minister and my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, will be very helpful for potato farmers, including with the surplus food program that starts with a $50 million fund, and that
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Bragdon now.
Mr. Richard Bragdon: Mr. Chair, thank you. With an estimated $300 million worth of potatoes in storage, the announced funding from the government today simply doesn't go far enough. In 2018 the New Brunswick potato industry lost over $20 million. It is estimated this year that the financial loss will exceed $40 million. For many producers still recovering from the hit they took in 2018, another major loss is totally unacceptable. How does the Prime Minister plan to mitigate these shortfalls and allow farmers to continue to grow the food we so desperately need?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, the honourable member spoke about farmers generally. The program today is $252 million, which comes on top of the broad range of other programs that farmers, of course, have access to. On potato farmers, in particular, I agree with the honourable member that this is a specific area of concern. I think all Canadians would like to see those potatoes not be wasted but be used, and that's why the $50 million for surplus food purchase is going to be so helpful.
Mr. Richard Bragdon: Mr. Chair, farmers across all agricultural sectors are hurting during this pandemic. The $16-billion beef industry is expected to take a massive hit due to the closures and reduced production of the meat-packing plants. Does the government truly believe that the announced $125 million that is shared between beef, poultry and pork producers will be enough to support these multi-billion dollar industries so they can put food on the tables of Canadians?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, I absolutely agree with the honourable member that our beef, pork and poultry producers are absolutely essential for our country. I am very pleased as a Canadian that we have security that comes from being a country that produces not only enough food for ourselves, but also enough food to feed the world. That is why the $125 million specifically to support our beef, pork and poultry producers is going to be so helpful.
Mr. Richard Bragdon: Mr. Chair, the government's announcement of $252 million for the agriculture sector falls well short of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture's request for immediate government relief for farmers. The president of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture, Mary Robinson, put it today something like this: that if the farmhouse is on fire, the government has offered the equivalent of a bucket of water. This will not go nearly far enough to help those in a desperate situation. Does the government have a plan to offer more than just crumbs to keep the vital agriculture sector operating and providing the food we so desperately need? When will the government finally make those who literally keep our land and grow our food a priority in this time of crisis?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, I don't know about the honourable member, but where I come from, $252 million is not just crumbs. I know that Canadian farmers don't feel that $252 million is nothing, either. I would like to take this opportunity to highlight two other aspects of the essential support for farmers that we announced today: the $77 million to support food processors, which will not only be important for the processors, but helpful for the farmers who produce products that go to them; and the $250 million that we would like to add to the Canadian Dairy Commission's line of credit to raise it to half a billion dollars, which will be very helpful to our essential dairy farmers.
The Chair: Now we'll go to the next question. Go ahead, Mrs. Wagantall.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall (YorktonMelville, CPC): Mr. Chair, a couple in my riding has had to shut down their business, and they are on CERB. They were shocked when their 16-year-old son also qualified, and he is receiving $8,000 on the basis of part-time work throughout the school year. Why is the government handing out a windfall to teenagers who are living at home while denying university students and ignoring seniors on fixed incomes?
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: Mr. Chair, any individual who has lost work for COVID reasons is eligible for the CERB, regardless of their personal circumstances. If you made $5,000 in the past year and are a resident of Canada, you qualify for the CERB. This is not a matter of differentiating between the personal circumstances of individuals but of acknowledging that many workers in different situations have lost their work or have had their work significantly reduced because of COVID.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Clearly, high school students would not have the same needs as university students and our seniors who are suffering at this time. The government's own findings on banning handguns and assault firearms state, In all cases the data does not conclusively demonstrate that these handgun or assault weapon bans have led to reductions in gun violence. Why is the Prime Minister so bent on penalizing law-abiding firearms owners when he should be focusing on funding our CBSA officers first, giving them the resources they need to seize smuggled firearms at our borders?
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, I note with some interest that when we brought forward legislation in a budget in the last two years to increase the number of officers at the border, the member opposite voted against it. I'm very pleased to hear that she now supports it. Let us be very clear. The evidence is overwhelming that these weapons are designed to be used, and have been used, to kill innocent people. Countries that adopt sensible gun policiesplaces like New Zealand, Australia, the United Kingdomhave all recognized that there's no place for these weapons in a civil society. We promised Canadians that we would act on that concern. There have been far too many people killed with these weapons, and even most recently, to honour and respect the terrible tragedy in Nova Scotia, the time to act is now, and we've acted.
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Last week the Minister of Agriculture said, Step by step we are giving our farmers...the tools they need to continue their...work. On April 30, the Canadian Federation of Agriculture called on the minister to create a $2.6-billion fund to maintain food security in Canada. This morning, the Prime Minister announced $252 million, hit-and-miss, across the agriculture sector. With all due respect, this is a slap in the face to our farmers and the agri-food sector. Instead of being here to speak to this announcement, the minister has chosen to do a press conference. This certainly reveals how seriously the minister takes this virtual sitting and parliamentary accountability. If the deputy minister is going to answer the question in her place, how does she see it is right to be providing $9 billion to students and only crumbs to our agriculture sector?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, first of all, let me say I do not, as has now been suggested by two members opposite, consider it in any way shameful that I should be answering questions about our support for the agricultural sector. Our government strongly supports our farmers. I have to say I personally very strongly support our farmers and have a strong personal connection to them. The $252 million of support is real and meaningful, and it is directed exactly where it is needed. It is directed at food processors, beef and pork producers and the dairy sector. As to the question about students, let me just point out that farm kids are students too, and farm kids will be benefiting from the support for students. I know they, their parents and grandparents are very
Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Time is up.
The Chair: Mr.Lehoux, the next question goes to you.
Mr. Richard Lehoux (Beauce, CPC): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Meat packing plants like Quebec-based Olymel are extremely worried that they won't be able to stay open throughout the pandemic. In the summer, these plants rely on students to do overtime and fill in for full-time employees on vacation. However, the Canada emergency student benefit makes it possible for these much-needed workers to stay home while still collecting the same amount of money. That's why the government must adjust its current summer job program for students in the agriculture and agri-food sectors. When is the government going to make these critical changes?
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: I can assure you that we are doing our best efforts to not disincentivize work. We know we need to support students with income support, but we also need to create jobs. We are looking at ways we can create additional jobs through Canada summer jobs, through the
The Chair: There is a point of order.
Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (SalaberrySurot, BQ): Mr.Chair, what the minister is saying is not being interpreted.
The Chair: We'll just check to see how the technology is going. Is everything okay now?
Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: Yes, it's working.
The Chair: Let's try that again, Minister.
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: Last week, as part of the measures announced around supporting our students, we announced the creation of 76,000 additional jobs, including jobs in the agriculture and processing sectors. We know we need to work directly with employers to ensure they have the people they need. This is exactly what we're doing through our youth employment and skills strategy, and that's what we'll continue to do. We won't apologize for supporting students with income support in these difficult times.
Mr. Richard Lehoux: I'm not sure the minister understood my question about the Canada emergency student benefit. I am very concerned about the agricultural sector, but the tourist and horticultural sectors are also on my mind. A number of business owners in my riding have reached out to me because the shortage of student workers is forcing them to shut down for the summer. This government has pulled the rug out from under them with the benefit it introduced for students. Minister, what do you have to say to those business owners in the tourist and horticultural sectors whom you are not helping?
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: Mr. Chair, with all due respect, I believe we are helping students. We've heard very clearly from the students that they want to work and want to serve in their communities in this time of crisis. That's why we're creating additional employment opportunities and an income support mechanism that allows them to work. We're going to continue to look at ways we can support them through additional opportunities this summer. We know they want to work and they want to serve.
Mr. Richard Lehoux: I hope that we'll see some concrete results. Pork and beef producers are feeling the impact of the country's shutdown triggered by the pandemic. Processing plants are suspending operations and buyers are tearing up their contracts. For the past five years, the government has been saying that the programs to help producers will be improved. Now more than ever, producers need these programs. However, the programs haven't been reviewed yet. When will the government make these changes, including the changes to agristability, and when can producers access them?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: We announced over $77 million in assistance for food processors to help them protect their workers and deal with the costs associated with the coronavirus. To help livestock and pork producers, we established agrirecovery, a national initiative that will provide $125million to help producers adapt to market changes. We're launching
The Chair: Mr.Lehoux has the floor.
Mr. Richard Lehoux: Thank you, Mr.Chair. I understand some of what the minister is saying. The measures announced at noon today received a very cold reception from the entire agriculture and agri-food sector, since the sector had asked for about $2.6billion. I think that it's important to support our agri-food industry and our farms, given the significant need for sovereignty. Many Canadians in the agriculture and agri-food sector have made this clear, as I was saying earlier. Something must be done quickly, before our country becomes completely dependent on its neighbours. Has the government considered making significant changes to the various programs currently in place?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Our country, Canada, will never depend on its neighbours or any other country for food. Canada is a major beef, pork and grain producer. Canada is an agricultural superpower and we should all take pride in that. I want to mention another significant part of our announcement today, which is the $50million surplus food purchase program. This is very significant. I think that all Canadians must support this initiative.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends (BrossardSaint-Lambert, Lib.)): We'll now move on to the next question. Mr.Calkins, the member for RedDeerLacombe, has the floor.
Mr. Blaine Calkins (Red DeerLacombe, CPC): Madam Chair, how will the government's forced confiscation of law-abiding firearms owners' property prevent criminals from illegally acquiring firearms from the United States?
Hon. Bill Blair: Madam Chair, in response to that, I would simply remind the member that we have made it very clear that these weapons have no place in civil society, so we have prohibited military-style assault weapons that have been designed to be used to kill people and have been used to kill people. I would also advise the member we will bring forward legislation to deal more effectively at the border. We'll make significant new investments in border services officers and in police. We'll bring forward new authorities, new offences, new penalties to deal with people who smuggle weapons across the border. We're also bringing in new regulations for the storage of weapons to make it more difficult for people to steal these guns. To deal with people who purchase them illegally and sell them illegally, there will be new offences and penalties to make ensure that they face the consequences.
Mr. Blaine Calkins: The government previously has said that decisions like classifying firearms should be left to experts. The recent decision was purely political and it flies in the face of evidence-based policy. A legal opinion that's already been obtained says that the bore of a 12-gauge shotgun with the choke removed is in excess of 20 millimetres. That means every 12-gauge shotgun with a choke in it with that choke removed is now prohibited. That is the same firearm that Olympic trap shooters, Olympic skeet shooters, duck hunters and geese hunters all across our country use on a very regular basis. Why did the government abandon an evidence-based policy?
Hon. Bill Blair: Madam Chair, I'm pleased to have the opportunity to correct the member. First of all, we have prohibited large-bore weapons, such as grenade launchers, but with reference to the 10-gauge shotgun and the 12-gauge shotgun, I would simply remind the member that the bore of a 10-gauge shotgun is 19.69 millimetres in width and the bore of a 12-gauge shotgun is 18.53 millimetres in width, both of them under the size for prohibition and therefore not covered in the new prohibitions that the government introduced on Friday. I'm afraid his expert opinion is wrong.
Mr. Blaine Calkins: Madam Chair, the opinion is that of one of the foremost experts we have in Canada when it comes to firearms legislation. If the entirety of the barrel length is considered, then the removal of the choke makes that barrel in excess of 20 millimetres. I would appreciate the minister clarifying that for law-abiding firearms owners. There is no plan for a buyback program in this policy, and law-abiding firearms owners are not able currently to surrender their firearms. Given this, and the fact that law-abiding firearms owners aren't committing any gun violence, what was the government's immediate benefit of making this announcement on May 1?
Hon. Bill Blair: Thank you, and I'm very grateful for the opportunity to clarify. Along with the prohibition that we have put in place, we have also, using the order in council, established an amnesty period, but the amnesty period is non-permissive grandfathering of those weapons. They cannot be used, they can't be taken to the range for shooting, they can't be used for hunting, they can't be sold and they can't be transferred, so we have put in strong measures to ensure that these weapons will not be available for use. We have also put in an amnesty period that will allow us to bring forward the legislation and a budget in order to effect a responsible, safe and effective buyback program to remove these weapons from society. I look forward to the member's support for those measures as we go forward.
Mr. Blaine Calkins: Madam Chair, since January 1, 2002, any law-abiding citizen who was issued with a firearms licence by the government would have been cross-referenced with a continuous eligibility check 6,695 times up until May 1 of this year. How many times was this most recent mass murderer here in Canada checked against a criminal database since January 2002?
Hon. Bill Blair: As the member is probably aware, there is a very extensive investigation currently being conducted into that individual and how he acquired his firearms, and it's not appropriate to discuss that. However, I think what is appropriate is to recognize that the weapons that this individual had available to him are weapons that were not designed for target shooting or hunting purposes or any sporting purposes. They were designed for soldiers to kill soldiers. In the hands of someone who is intent on mass murder, they represent an unacceptable and deadly risk to Canadians, and that's why we have prohibited them. I'd also remind the member that other countries that have adopted sensible gun control laws, such as New Zealand, Australia and the United Kingdom, have also implemented very similar bans.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends): Now we will go to the hon. member for NanaimoLadysmith, Mr. Manly.
Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP): Thank you, Madam Chair. I'd like to start by giving my condolences for the crew from the HMCS Fredericton who died, and in particular to the family of Captain Kevin Hagen. He was originally a constituent from NanaimoLadysmith. Other countries are strongly recommending that all citizens wear masks wherever people gather indoors, including in schools, on public transit and in stores. Taiwan has effectively stopped the spread of the coronavirus by supplying people with masks and installing dispensers of hand sanitizer throughout public spaces. The Taiwanese do not do a lot of testing or contact tracing. They do not have a lockdown. Taiwan started in the top 10 countries affected by COVID-19, and today it is number 119. Will Canada follow Taiwan's example so we can lift the lockdown safely and get Canadians back to work?
Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health): Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and I thank the member for his question. There's no doubt that masks can play a role in a layered approach to protecting Canadians' health and safety, but as the member has mentioned, there are many other aspects to ensuring that Canadians are safe no matter where they go. For example, it is of utmost importance that Canadians practise social distancing. Social distancing can provide the most protection, in fact, when you're out in public or you're in another place where there are other people. Wearing a non-medical mask can add a layer of protection, and certainly Dr. Tam has said that when physical distancing is not an option, Canadians should consider wearing a mask.
Mr. Paul Manly: Thank you. I'd like to give a shout-out to Martha and her team, who are doing a fundraiser for the SPCA by making masks for citizens in my riding. Madam Chair, many people are falling through the cracks in the pandemic relief plan, including seniors who face an increase in the cost of living and a loss of retirement investment income. Will the government make the CERB a universal benefit to ensure that all Canadians who need help get help? If not, will the government increase old age security and allow seniors to withdraw funds from their RRSP without penalties so that they can pay their bills?
Hon. Deb Schulte: Thank you very much, and I really appreciate the question. We do recognize that OAS and GIS are very important parts of the retirement income of Canadians, particularly lower-income seniors. We've already introduced measures like the GST credit supplement to help seniors. The CERB is there for working seniors who have lost income as a result of COVID-19. We've also reduced the mandatory retirement withdrawals by 25%, and we've also spent half a billion dollars to support organizations that assist vulnerable Canadians, including seniors
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends): We are going back to Mr. Manly. Thank you.
Hon. Deb Schulte: I do recognize that there's more to be done. Thank you.
Mr. Paul Manly: Many small businesses do not meet the eligibility requirements for the various relief programs on offer, particularly sole proprietorships. I have a long list of businesses in my riding that are missing out. At the same time, we have large companies in this country that use tax havens and loopholes to avoid paying their fair share of public services. Will the government ensure that the needs of small businesses are met and withhold relief from corporations that use tax havens to avoid paying taxes in Canada?
Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade): I want to thank the hon. member for the question. Small businesses are indeed incredibly important to all of our communities across the country. That is why we have implemented many measures to help them weather this difficult period in COVID-19. Whether it is a small business loan, a wage subsidy or commercial rent assistance, or just lowering the cost by deferring GST or HST or customs duties, many measures have been put forward to help our small businesses through this very difficult time.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends): Mr. Manly, you may have a very short question.
Mr. Paul Manly: Thank you, Madam Chair. As we navigate this pandemic crisis, we are also in the middle of another major crisis: the climate emergency. Will this government develop its economic recovery plan for the pandemic with the climate emergency at the forefront of its planning?
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends): The hon. minister has 15 seconds.
Hon. Jonathan Wilkinson (Minister of Environment and Climate Change): Thank you for the question. The focus of the government at the present time is on combatting the virus and on steps to start to relax some of the measures that have been taken. As we look forward, we need to learn from the experiences of this crisis as well as look forward to some of the looming crises on the horizon. Climate change is one of those, and we certainly intend to reflect on resilience for the economy as we move forward.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends): Now we will go to Ms. Ashton.
Ms. Niki Ashton (ChurchillKeewatinook Aski, NDP): Thank you, Madam Chair. My question is to the Minister of Indigenous Services. First nations across northern Manitoba and many others across the country have been doing everything possible to keep COVID-19 out of their communities. Many here have implemented strict lockdowns or travel restrictions, but the federal government has done virtually nothing to deal with the chronic issues that have made them vulnerable in the first place, such as overcrowded housing and the lack of hospitals. We have to be very concerned about a possible second deadly wave of COVID-19. What is your government doing to support communities in the face of that possibility? Why isn't the government supporting the call for a ventilation centre in Berens River, a hospital in Cross Lake, a hospital in the Island Lake region? If the government couldn't act in time for this first wave of the pandemic, can it at least act in time for a potential second wave?
Hon. Marc Miller (Minister of Indigenous Services): Indeed, Madam Chair, one of the reflections we have in coming out of this global pandemic is that we don't want to go into the next one with the same social determinants of health that have made indigenous communities more vulnerable and more susceptible to contracting and then spreading COVID-19. A lot of the historic housing funds that we have mobilized in order to address overcrowding in particular are cold comfort to those communities that are still finding themselves in overcrowded situations. In the staged approach to the epidemic and the onset of COVID-19, there are many measures that Indigenous Services Canada and as a whole of government we will deploy, including surge capacity, increased PPE, and nurses and doctors. Obviously, we are looking for a medical solution to a medical problem, and that is what we will spare no expense or resource to address as indigenous communities continue to face the looming threat of a second wave of COVID-19 as they start to relax some of their confinement procedures.
Ms. Niki Ashton: Again, Madam Chair, to the Minister of Indigenous Services, many of us across northern Canada are deeply concerned by the outbreak taking place in northern Saskatchewan, centred in La Loche. The outbreak started from a worker who came back from a work camp in Fort McMurray. These camps are making workers sick, and they are proving deadly for first nations and northern communities. These work camps put public health at risk during a pandemic. Your government says it's committed to doing everything it can to keep first nations safe, yet nothing has been done to support calls for pandemic shutdowns. Will you support first nations in their call for shutdowns during this pandemic to save lives now?
Hon. Marc Miller: Madam Chair, the situation in La Loche is a very pressing concern. Members won't be surprised to know that that number will only increase as the days go on and as we implement aggressive testing and contact tracing. We are working with surrounding first nations and communities and with the Mtis and Dene communities in La Loche to ensure that medical precautions are being put into place and that strict social distancing is being put into effect. This is a situation that is very much evolving minute by minute, and it is something for which we have deployed additional resources, along with Meadow Lake and the Northern Inter-Tribal Health Authority to ensure that there is a health response to a health problem. Clearly, we need coordination with the provinces to ensure that we have a seamless approach
Ms. Niki Ashton: My question referred to La Loche, but this is a broader issue. There are many work camps, including here in our north, that first nations are extremely concerned about. Will your government step in to support their calls for temporary shutdowns at this time?
Hon. Marc Miller: One of the things we see as we see the evolving dynamic and the potential spreads, particularly the fear of clusters as communities, provinces, territories may choose to relax certain measures, is the need to have a more targeted approach as to how the economy reacts and deals with it, particularly in northern and vulnerable communities. This is something for which we will need to have a serious approach, with both the Minister of Natural Resources and also our provincial counterparts, to make sure that we aren't taking hasty measures to reopen the economy while we're trying to protectand this is our most important goalindigenous communities from getting exposed and spreading COVID-19.
Ms. Niki Ashton: Madam Chair, my question is for the Minister of Fisheries. Hundreds of fishers and their families here in Manitoba who work with the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation are desperately calling for emergency support. Many are calling on the federal government to also work with them and the FFMC to redirect their product to domestic markets and communities here at home to address the growing food insecurity people are facing. When will your government announce support for inland fishers, including here in Manitoba, and will you work to ensure that their product, healthy fish, can be provided here at home for people who need it?
Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Madam Chair, we know that COVID-19 is having extreme impacts on northern first nations communities, especially with regard to fisheries in areas that rely on it for not only their livelihoods but also for the cultural importance. Indigenous harvesters are able to access through the aboriginal financial institutions the $306 million we've put in for support for indigenous small and medium-sized businesses. The funding allows for short-term interest-free loans as well as for non-repayable contributions. We also announced earlier that the Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency has made available $15 million in non-repayable support for businesses. We know that there's more that needs to be done to support our first nations communities as well as our harvesters. We're doing everything we can and we will continue to make sure that we address those needs.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends): I need to interrupt you. We'll now hear from ClaudeDeBellefeuille.
Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: Thank you, MadamChair. I don't want to talk about tax cheats. I don't want to talk about the $1billion that the government used to track down tax cheats. I want to ask the minister why she isn't taking this opportunity to learn from countries that are putting an end to tax avoidance in tax havens, a legal but immoral practice in this day and age. Can she explain why she isn't showing leadership by convincing cabinet to change course and eliminate the legal measure known as tax avoidance, which enables companies to avoid paying taxes and put money in tax havens?
Hon. Diane Lebouthillier: MadamChair, as soon as our government took office in 2015, we made it a priority to crack down on tax cheats. Our government's historic investments of almost $1 billion have ensured that the agency can access the necessary resources for its work. We're already starting to see the results. As I was saying, I established an expert advisory committee to advise us. We've also been working on tightening the rules of the voluntary disclosures program. We've entered into country-by-country agreements that make it possible to share information. We're auditing four countries a year. We're working with the OECD. Currently, over 50 criminal investigations are related to international tax evasion.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends): Ms.DeBellefeuille has the floor.
Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: MadamChair, does the minister realize that she's being filmed and recorded and that she isn't answering my question? I don't want to talk about cheats. I want to talk about companies that use a legal mechanism to avoid paying taxes and to put their money in tax havens. I can see that she doesn't want to answer my question. I'll ask her another question. Can she tell me how many companies legally take advantage of tax avoidance in tax havens? How much money escapes taxation through this legal mechanism? The government could invest this money in its economic recovery post-COVID-19.
Hon. Diane Lebouthillier: MadamChair, I completely understand my colleague's impatience. However, she must understand that this type of issue is very complex. Under the former Conservative government, the issue wasn't a priority at all. Regarding tax evasion abroad, our leadership made it possible for the agency to conduct twice as many audits in three years as it conducted in 10 years under the Conservatives. Over 50criminal investigations related to international tax evasion are ongoing.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends): Go ahead, Madame DeBellefeuille.
Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: MadamChair, I'm not impatient. However, I don't understand the government's lack of willingness to eliminate this mechanism, which is legal but completely immoral. Our questions remain unanswered. My next question is for the Minister of Finance. The Fdration de la relve agricole du Qubec and the UPA approached the Minister of Finance two weeks ago and still haven't received a response regarding the following issue. We know that many farms don't pay wages. As a result, these farms are being penalized because they aren't eligible for the $40,000 in loans available through the Canada emergency business account. To qualify for these loans, the farms needed a payroll of $20,000 to $1.5million in 2019. Does the Minister of Finance plan to respond to the farmers who want to access the $40,000 in loans?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Thank you, Ms.DeBellefeuille. We know that the Canada emergency response benefit must be made available to the people who need it.
Mr. Damien Kurek: On a point of order
Hon. Bill Morneau: That's why we're considering our approach. Of course
Mr. Damien Kurek: I have a point of order.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends): MinisterMorneau, please wait a moment. A member is raising a point of order. Mr. Kurek, do you have a point of order? You have to unmute yourself.
Mr. Damien Kurek: Yes. It's that the translation is at the same volume as the minister.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends): You'll have to put yourself on English. Rather, the minister has to put himself on French.
Hon. Bill Morneau: Sorry. I was on the English channel. We know that the people who need the Canada emergency response benefit must have access to it. That's why we're considering the challenges each time. If I receive a letter, I'll look at it. Once we have a response, we'll pass it directly on to the member.
The Chair: The next question will go to Mr. Richards.
Mr. Blake Richards (BanffAirdrie, CPC): This question is for the tourism minister. The tourism ministry was one of the first and hardest-hit industries during this crisis, yet despite the Prime Minister's announcement over three weeks ago now of a plan to bring forward a tourism-specific aid package to help the businesses who employ millions of unemployed Canadians who work in tourism, there's still been nothing from this government. When will the government finally act to provide help to this nearly crippled industry?
Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages): Mr. Chair, obviously we know that the tourism sector has been deeply impacted. I had the chance to talk to many of the leaders in the sector, and clearly there's a lot of anxiety. We also had the chance to work with all the G20 ministers of tourism all together, and we know we have to act
The Chair: We'll now go back to Mr. Richards.
Mr. Blake Richards: I didn't really get much of an answer there. I hear a lot about talking and not much on action. Tourism-based communities like the ones in Banff and Canmore, which I represent, are tourism-based economies and have unemployment rates of 85% or higher. They also don't qualify for a lot of the programs because they're seasonal businesses and make most or all of their revenues for the year from May to October, so they're at risk of losing their entire season. I have a couple of very specific questions. Will the government consider making changes to the programs to make sure that seasonal businesses can get help? What does the government plan to do to help the tourism industry recover after the pandemic?
Hon. Mlanie Joly: Thank you. Obviously, the tourism sector has access to many measures, including the CEBA account, the $40,000 account. They also have access to the wage subsidy. They have access to rent relief. They will be having access also to funding through the regional development agencies, and we'll be coming up with the details soon. Of course, in my colleague's riding of Banff, which is a fantastic place and a tourism gem, they will have access to the support through WD, western economic diversification. If there are particular cases you would like to raise with me, I would be more than happy to talk to you to see how, on the ground, we can help the tourism operators.
Mr. Blake Richards: Mr. Chair, clearly the tourism minister hasn't been listening. She says she's talking to the industry. She's not hearing their concerns. What she just said does not address many of the concerns they have about being seasonal industries. It doesn't address anything about their concerns about the hard economic recovery they'll have after the pandemic. Let's try another minister and see if we can get some answers. Another industry that's very hard hit in my province and my riding is the oil and gas industry. It's another industry the Prime Minister has promised to help, but there hasn't been anything. Clearly there's a pattern here. The only so-called assistance there's been to help hurting Albertans in the oil patch has been measures to speed up the death of the industry that they work in. Will the Liberal government ever show any concern for Albertans? Will they bring forward a plan to preserve Canadian jobs? Will they put forward a plan to ensure the use of Canadian oil before oil coming in from places like Saudi Arabia?
Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources): In fact, Mr. Chair, the federal government has taken several steps in recent weeks that will meaningfully support workers and communities that depend on this industry. We have the Canada emergency wage subsidy, which covers 75% of an employee's wages for the employer. We have more liquidity for oil and gas companies through new loans of $15 million to $60 million from the Business Development Bank of Canada. We continue to step forward in our response to the impacts of COVID-19 on my province here in Newfoundland and Labrador and on Alberta and Saskatchewan. These three provinces are being hit by two crises at the same time, a crisis of demand for oil and gas on the world markets and of course a crisis of public health with COVID-19.
Mr. Blake Richards: Mr. Chair, a lot of these things we're hearing about aren't going to actually help the industry to recover. What we need to see is the government give the industry and the private sector the opportunity to succeed. Maybe what they could do is consider expediting the approval of billions of dollars of private sector projects that would put thousands and thousands of Canadians back to work. Will the government consider looking at ways that we can expedite projects? Will they look at ways that we can encourage the use of Canadian oil before the use of oil coming in from places like Saudi Arabia?
Hon. Seamus O'Regan: Mr. Chair, we have been working with our provincial partners. We have been working with businesses of all sizes in the oil and gas industry. We have been working with labour, concentrating on workers and concentrating on the companies that support those jobs to make sure that they remain whole and those jobs will be there for those workers. We're particularly proud of our orphan wells program, which was launched by the Alberta government in conjunction with us. It was launched last week. I am pleased to inform this House that the uptake on applications for that program is significantly higher than even we expected.
The Chair: That's all the time we have for questions today. I want to thank all the members for taking part. The committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon. The committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon. Thank you. | |
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Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I will also be responsible for the functional design phase , the conceptual design phase and the detailed design phase of the user interface design . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Alright .
Marketing: Hi , I'm Genevieve . I'm the Marketing Expert . I'm an expert at marketing .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um , I'll be telling you guys about the user requirement specifications for our new product . Um , I'll be doing some trend-watching in the conceptual design , and product evaluation for the design phase .
Project Manager: Alright I'm Heather and I've I said I'm your Project Manager , um Well you can pretty much read what it is that I'm doing . But um um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . And uh tool training is one thing that we're going to be doing today , um um as well as planning the project , how we're going to , uh , create this product , and , um , discuss , um , our aims and objects of this , Which brings us to our next subject ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: is , um , um ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: as a team we're going to be designing and creating a new kind of remote control . Um , we want this to be a marketable product that can be trendy , um , a completely new style , so that , um , can really appeal to a , to a generation that doesn't want a simple plain kind of , uh , channel-changer . And , um , it needs to be user-friendly for , um , maybe , for an example , for people that , um , can't see the numbers as well , or , um , perhaps an ergonomic design .
Industrial Designer: Okay . So this is a television remote control ?
Project Manager: Yes , it's a television remote control .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Right . I believe I should be taking minutes on this right now . So , alright .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Um , yeah . Um , the way that we're going to go about this is , um , we'll have a time where we can , um come up with new ideas alone , and , and work on the project and then , um , after we've brainstormed and , and thought about , we can come together in a meeting and , and discuss what , what um , what kind of functional design we want to use . Same with conceptual design and detailed design . So , um , making sure that it , it's usable , that as a , um {disfmarker} and that it's , it's feasible to create , and uh , to come up with a concept of it want , what we want it to look like . Um , tool training . Is , is everyone , um {disfmarker} {gap} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Got those notes .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Great . Great .
Marketing: Thank you .
Project Manager: Um One thing that , uh , we're going to do is become more acquainted with the , the tools that we have access to for our project . Um , one of them is our whiteboard . And , um , as a sort of team-building moment , um , I , I'd like us to , um , try out the whiteboard by expressing our favourite animal and the charac characteristics of that animal .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um , why that , why that should be your favourite animal . So , um , I , I'm assuming that we should do that now .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} With our microphones still attached to our bodies . Okay . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Gosh . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: 'Kay , what's my favourite animal ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do come up . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} to go first . {vocalsound} Oh ,
Project Manager: This is a team-building time
Industrial Designer: are we all doing it individually ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: where , um , {vocalsound} ,
Industrial Designer: Okay , let's stand up and support you {vocalsound}
Project Manager: okay cool , um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: My favourite animal , which changes all the time , okay ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: right now it is an elk .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: An elk ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: alright , so {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} A vicious {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And it goes like {disfmarker} Yeah it's got like big antlers ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah . Looks kinda like , like it has holly growing out of its head .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Do you have elk where you come from ?
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: You do .
Project Manager: Yeah
Marketing: We have moose too . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we have moose and we have deer .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do you have {disfmarker}
User Interface: We have sheep . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} 'Kay , um .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sheep . Yeah ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: cows .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's a great elk .
Marketing: Uh-oh , we have a good artist . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: That is really good .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thanks .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'm quite {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is my {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh , very shapely .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Brilliant .
Project Manager: That's a sketching of my my elk , and it , it is my favourite animal right now , 'cause it is a large beautiful majestic creature ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: that um , that um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: In a way it looks kind of awkward , because it's on spindly legs and it uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But it can really overcome harsh terrain , and although it's gorgeous it's also very dangerous , because it has um strong antlers , and uh it can really combat its enemies , even like it it's a it's an herbivore but , uh , it can really defend itself .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Very nice . Okay .
Project Manager: Right .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Right , I'm gonna take minutes while , um , you guys express your favourite animals .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay , I'll go next . I am a big animal lover . like all sorts of animals , but for the moment I'm gonna draw a cat , in memory of my poor cat that died recently . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh .
Project Manager: Oh .
Industrial Designer: It's gonna be a bit of a strange drawing , but never mind .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Not as artistic as Heather's drawing .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Bit more cartoon style .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But I like cats because they're so independent , and they always seem to be doing what they want to be doing . Um , but that doesn't mean they're completely not sociable , 'cause they enjoy interacting with humans as well , and they seem to enjoy the good things like sunshine and , um , running around outside as well as being inside , and enjoying their food , and generally just , they just seemed so cool and {vocalsound} they just know what they're doing .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh I reckon they're sort of , they got it sorted . They know what they want .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Basically , that's why I like cats . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Very good . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Great .
Industrial Designer: {gap} I'll rub that out . There you go . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay . I think my favourite animal would be a dog , but I'm not really sure {vocalsound} how to draw one .
Industrial Designer: Ooh .
User Interface: I , I've never drawn a dog , I don't think . I'm tempted to draw a snail 'cause I draw them sometimes {vocalsound} and they're really easy to draw .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um ,
Project Manager: I forget her name .
User Interface: right it's gonna be a really funny dog , 'cause I'm not sure how to draw a dog .
Marketing: Tara
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: or Tara .
Industrial Designer: Well there are loads of different types of dogs , so I'm sure it'll represent one kind of dog . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a cartoon dog I think .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: A s I don't ev Oh , oh well . {vocalsound} It's a scary cartoon dog . That {disfmarker} This ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: that does not look like a dog .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It looks kinda like a person . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We can pretend . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'm sorry .
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's Pinocchio .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} How do you draw a dog ? I suppose it has a lon Oh my god . Right . Yous know what it's supposed to be .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a dog . {vocalsound} . Um , I like dogs because , um , they're so good to humans , like they can be trained to be police dogs and seeing-eye dogs , and they're just such friendly animals . And , like they're more of a companion than cats .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's true .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I've nothing against cats . Cats don't really like me , so I can't like them .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} But they're just so friendly and warm and nice animals ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} that don't look like that . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Alrighty . I feel like a robot .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay . Um , well I guess I had the most time to think about it . I'm going to draw a butterfly , because I saw a butterfly yesterday , that seemed to be like the symbol of Spring arriving . And it was actually the prettiest butterfly I've ever seen out in the wild , and I though that was pretty cool in Scotland . It was like , well it was a little pointier than that . At first I thought it was a dead leaf .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And then it landed on the wall next to me . But this part was all brown and then it has these big blue dots like this . And then it kinda {disfmarker} there was a green , I think it was a green ring , and there was like red going out like this .
Project Manager: It's kinda like a peacock .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , it kinda was actually , 'cause it was {disfmarker} This part of the body was really dull , and then it was the most colourful exotic butterfly ever , and I'm like , wow this is the middle of Scotland in like March .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So I thought that was pretty cool . And it landed by a wall and let me look at it for about two minutes . I wish I'd had my camera . So that's gonna be my favourite animal because after all the snow it seemed to say that like Spring is finally here . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Very nice . {vocalsound}
Marketing: There you go .
Project Manager: Great .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh , what do we {disfmarker} Oh .
Project Manager: Do you hear the eraser buzzing while you do that ?
Marketing: Yes I do . {vocalsound} {gap}
Project Manager: Yea {vocalsound} Right .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So , now that we know how to use the whiteboard ,
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: um , the next , um , thing we need to address is our financial department , to meet our our budget , um {disfmarker} or not meet our budget but more , um , like what kind of , uh , selling range we'll be looking at , um , wanna make this um {gap} selling price of twenty five Euros . And so we have to , um , come up with a way to , to create a , a uh remote control , where um we can {disfmarker} like the price to create it will be significantly less . Um , we'd like to , um to , uh , make fifty million Euro . I'm assuming that's what the M_ means . Um , and make it for an international market . Um , one thing we'd have to think about internationally is in the design of , um , like different kinds of , uh , V_C_R_s . Things like that , depending on which country you are . Another thing for the design team to think about . Um , we want it to cost , uh , absolute maximum of twelve Euro and fifty cents .
Marketing: Okay , so we'll have a hundred percent profit then ? Twelve fifty .
Project Manager: I'm bad at math .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: 'Kay . {vocalsound} Um ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so now that , um , that is underway , um
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: it is discussion time . So this is time for us to bring our initial ideas , any um suggestions that you may have so far , a um your personal experiences with remote controls , and um , um , areas you see that , uh , could be improved in your experience with them . Does anyone have any initial thoughts ?
Marketing: I find that in the dark it's often hard to know what button you're pushing .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . So what's something we could , uh , do to remedy that ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I always find that in our house the remote control always goes missing .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's always , where is the remote control ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So maybe if you could have some kind of tracking {vocalsound} device for the remote control or some signal that you could find out where it was .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I dunno , some kind of alarm . You can press a button on your wall , {gap} signal ,
Project Manager: Yeah . It's a great idea . It's a great idea .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: 'cause it always gets lost .
User Interface: Do yous not find that , um , {vocalsound} like , there's a lot of , um , buttons on your remote control , and you don't know what half of them do .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that you don't use half of them . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , I don't know what they do . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm . There's some remote controls where there's kind of a hidden panel , so all those buttons that you don't really use unless you're programming or something .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's , that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's useful .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it is . Yeah .
Marketing: So you just have like the number buttons , power button , T_V_ video button .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Alright . Anything about , um , the look of the , uh , remote control that you might have ideas about . Maybe it could be , instead of like a standard rectangular shape , it could be , um , something more interesting like {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Any ideas will do that you have at this point .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Could be shaped like a conch ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Can hold it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} A novelty .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: you know . Be like a shell-shaped remote . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Are we going into kind of novelty factors here . Like , I've seen phones like a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well if it's a trendy original , um , aspect we're going for .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: I mean , you're the designers , you c , you can um decide what kind of , um , direction you wanna go in ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: but at this point in the , in the first meeting it can be any ideas that we just throw out there .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . I suppose , if we're he heading to have it , like make a huge profit out of this , it needs to be quite a universally accepted thing . Like , a novelty thing might only sell a few things rather than , like , a general kind of more acceptable {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: But we don't wanna go towards boring , 'cause that wouldn't sell either .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So , hmm .
Project Manager: And the key issue here is , is being trendy and original . Um , that does not necessarily mean it needs to be outrageous .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Right . Okay we have five minutes left . So , just to cover {disfmarker} We have one more thing . Um , like you can go over your ideas , of course , in your own personal times . Um , our next meeting will be in half an hour .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So you have half an hour to , uh , think about what you want to present . Or not present but bring to the meeting . Um , I_D_ , whatever that stands for .
Industrial Designer: Industrial Designer .
Marketing: Interface ?
Project Manager: Industrial Designer .
Industrial Designer: That's me . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh , industrial .
Project Manager: I have to remember these things . Um . You'll be beginning your , your working design .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um , U_I_D_ the technical functions design will , will be worked on the next thirty minutes . Um , {vocalsound} maybe how this can be achieved , and , um , we need the user requirements from the manag Marketing Expert .
Marketing: Marketing Expert . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um , you will get specific instructions , um , of what to do in the next half an hour . And I'll see you in half an hour , okay ?
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: Thank you .
User Interface: {gap} | |
doc_135 | Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} minutes from the last meeting which were essentially that we uh had decided on roles for each of you , however , um there are some changes that I've got from on high
User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: that um are a bit uh {disfmarker} well w what I didn't actually realise it was that the uh {vocalsound} this is for a specific television .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: So the all in one idea goes out the window . And {vocalsound} they require that the uh
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: actually I'll get to that at the end {gap} point number four , um we'll get what you've got and then we can see what we can adapt from it . So um , presentations , were you {disfmarker} anybody got , raring to go ?
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Raring to go ? Okay . Good stuff . Mm .
Marketing: Um . So how {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh I need to plug you in . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: S {gap}
Project Manager: Just about .
User Interface: Wow . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's a inspired design .
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sh do you want me to hold it ?
Project Manager: Uh there we go , just screw 'em on in . Gonna have to swap them round so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So , after that ?
Project Manager: now , it was function F_ eight .
Marketing: F_ eight . {vocalsound} f oh sorry F_ eight .
Project Manager: That's the wee blue one . Blue one F_ eight .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Should do it , good one .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah . Uh , me again , Rajan the Marketing Expert . Uh , as we have decided in the last meeting that I have to find out , sorry , yeah sure .
Project Manager: Hold on , sorry . {gap} and if you just click that it'll go ahead , one at a time .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah . Uh actually , sorry I have to see the other {gap} , sorry .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sorry , uh .
Marketing: Yeah , thank you .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh , yes , I have to look at the uh market potential for this product , uh , like consumer likings and everything , what is the potential for this product and are we able to achieve our a net profit or our aims or not ? Then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: P press F_ five to start it first .
Marketing: Sorry . Okay . Yeah , I can , okay .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Jesus .
Marketing: Uh then uh the methodology I adopted to find out all this was market survey . A a detailed market survey on consumers was done to find out their likings and dislikings , what they prefer what they not prefer , w what problems they do encounter in all this type of things . And what we got was , we found that {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} uh , what they th what problems they are having with different uh remote controls available in the market . Seventy five percent of users they do find it that the remote controls available in the market are ugly . They are not so good looking . So , we have to put stress on this , uh we have to take care of this fact also like our design , uh should be appropriate , should be good looking for the consumers . And yes that's wi uh this will definitely , this can definitely put uh uh enhance our sales . Uh and even uh the good thing about this is that eighty percent of users they are willing to pay high uh pay more for this uh good looking remote controls also . So even if the available market goes for the available {disfmarker} uh even if the market goes for the available remote control is less even then we can sell it at twenty five Euros , which maybe which may seem quite high but if our looks are are if the re remote control we design have a good better uh better look uh designs , then we can hope that consumers will prefer these g remote controls .
Project Manager: Excellent .
Marketing: Then {disfmarker} {gap} And the second thing , some some companies they think that they should have more and more functions of the users uh or in their remote controls , but rather than those having more functions in the remote controls we should emphasise what actually consumer want , what they operate , rather than making it too complicated . Because mostly it has been found that fifty percent of the users they use only ten percent of the buttons , so there is no point of having ninety percent buttons making the remote controls too bulky , too complicated too expensive a because I think I believe that technology is useful only if uh the consumers they want to use it . Otherwise there is no point of having all this type of things . So this will not only reduce the cost of our remote controls but it will increase our profit also . So we have to take care of this fact also . Then . Uh it was function I want to go to .
Project Manager: Oh you wanna go back ? Just escape .
Marketing: Uh , escape , okay thank you . Then if we look at this slide ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: uh these are in your shared documents , you can see ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: like {disfmarker} Uh , sorry .
User Interface: So , sorry {disfmarker} I was just gonna say , what was the question for this ? Or is {disfmarker} are you coming on to that ?
Marketing: Ah t look all the market potential , what uh how we should design consu our remote controls , what they should be there so as to en enhance our profit , enhance our sales .
User Interface: Okay . So these percentages are are what ?
Marketing: Yeah , these are different age group persons like uh sorry , I can open it in another way .
Project Manager: Okay . Speech recognition .
Marketing: Uh , yes . If we look at the costs whether the consumers they are willing to uh pay more for speech recognition in a remote control or not , we can find that they up to a thirty five years age group we have a very good disliking for this uh this uh point , like for speech recognition in a remote control .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So we can emphasise on this point also like , because it will definitely enhance our sales in this ag in this particular age group from uh fifteen to thirty five ,
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: and I uh and I think that most of the users of the rem uh T_V_ are belong to this age group . So we should look {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm . We're als we we're looking at who buys it as well . {gap}
Marketing: Yeah . We can look at that that factor also , so yes . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh , which I think the twenty five to thirty five is uh usual , sort of .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm , mm .
Marketing: So , and {disfmarker} {gap}
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound} And then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Fifteen to twe
Marketing: Yes . I think so . Uh if we look at this data how how uh h how what are the problems the consumers are facing with the existing remote controls in the market .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: They find that thirt uh thirty five percent uh thirty four percent of the consumers they find too difficult to operate a remote control . So it should be in such a way that it should be easy to learn how to operate these remote controls and we should provide pl uh spe uh proper manuals for its use also so as that people {disfmarker} consumers could easily learn . They need not to have any , much technical knowledge to see uh to know how to operate these remote controls .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So this is also a very goo uh major factor to loo uh take into consideration to enhance our profits and sales . So um this is all about
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: uh market potential by me .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Uh , yes , th thank you .
Project Manager: Okay , thank you . Um , {vocalsound} follow on with Helen ? Yeah please .
User Interface: Yep , sure , that's cool , um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah we have to take that {gap} out .
Project Manager: Oh , so we do yeah .
Marketing: Sorry .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Fun and games .
Marketing: Sorry .
Project Manager: Don't know if the cable's gonna be long enough .
Marketing: Uh sorry , I have {gap} . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think I just kicked over whatever it runs on underneath as well .
Marketing: Brian , this one also I {gap} . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Thank you very much Brian .
User Interface: I can turn my computer quickly if that's okay .
Marketing: If you want me to help , yeah .
User Interface: Um , yep .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay , and then what do I press , F_ eight ?
Marketing: Uh F_ eight . Function F_ eight .
Project Manager: Function F_ eight .
User Interface: Oh right .
Marketing: Mm s .
User Interface: Okay , cool .
Marketing: It's not coming . Function F_ eight , okay .
User Interface: Oh .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . No signal . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Computer .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: Computer adjusting , yeah .
Project Manager: There you go .
User Interface: Okay . Cool .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay and then how do I press the the big one , to get it on to the big {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh F_ five .
User Interface: F_ five and I press that again to get it off as well do I ?
Marketing: Escape .
Project Manager: Um , F_ five and escape'll bring it back and just uh the left button for advancing .
User Interface: Okay , so um I'm the interface design designer , User Interface Designer sorry , uh I'm concerned with um w what effect the apparatus should have on the user and um I'm I'm also {disfmarker} I want to point out that our motto , put the fashion in electronics ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so obviously we as a company we want to make our products trendy and fashionable , it's a big concern of ours . Okay , and how do I press n just the next button ?
Project Manager: Uh just a left uh
User Interface: The arrow ? Okay .
Project Manager: left mouse button .
User Interface: So um I looked at existing designs and also um the information that Raj gave us was very useful about what people like , what people dislike . Um and what people {disfmarker} fashionable , because we said people between twenty five and thirty five were the main um buyers of of our T_V_ I think .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay .
User Interface: So um what they like and what they find fashionable .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} And ergonomics , we said um , I don't know I haven't actually been able to do any of this myself ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but um maybe that comes up , I don't know .
Project Manager: That can come under Arlo as well .
User Interface: And the findings , well the basic {disfmarker} that was the basic function to send messages to the television set .
Project Manager: Uh .
User Interface: That's what people want to do . Um , so they need to be included , um , but I've got some pictures here of some leading ones . I don't know how to get to them ,
Project Manager: Uh if you if you escape then you can see your bar .
User Interface: {vocalsound} do I press F_ five is it ? {gap} escape ? Oh okay , cool . I haven't got my glasses on so I hope it's this one .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh okay .
User Interface: These are two leading um remote controls at the moment .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: You know they're grey , they've I mean this one's got loads of buttons , it's hard to tell from here what they actually do ,
Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: and they don't look very exciting at all . Um , personally I prefer this one just because it's looks easier use , it's a bit more sleek with more of this silver stuff ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: um , but there you go , that's what we're up against ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and I think we can do much better than that .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We hope so .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Of course . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um hang on . F_ five ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: okay , sorry . Personal preferences . Um , well I think we need to l I think the ergonomics is quite um important , um
Project Manager: {gap} Yeah , particularly if we've uh there was a bit in Raj's about R_S_I_ and things as well .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Uh-huh . And um I thought not too edgy and like a box , more kind of hand-held more um {vocalsound} not as uh computery and
Project Manager: Organic {vocalsound} .
User Interface: or organic , yeah , more organic shape I think . {vocalsound} Um simple designs , like the last one we just saw , not too many buttons and as Raj pointed out , only ten percent {disfmarker} fifty percent of people only use ten percent of the buttons ,
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: so I think what we can miss out on the buttons we can make up for in design and and how nice it looks .
Project Manager: Sales , {gap} . Okay .
User Interface: Um , hand-held and portable I think is portamint is important because T_F_T_ have just um released um I think is it a a remote control for presentations or uh and a big seven inch big screen , anyway , so um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah it's like a , yeah . {vocalsound} It's {gap} . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , no seven inches isn't that big but um anyway um so hand-held and portable and uh m I thought about other functions for T_V_ but as you pointed out people don't actually want that ,
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: And also the company want to keep it stuck to the T_V_ for uh to keep down the production time .
User Interface: so maybe we forget about that . It's for one T_V_ oh right okay , sure . And so the last thing I thought w which I quickly mentioned in the other one was maybe a bit of a gimmick to set us apart from other people , like glow-in-the-dark
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Exactly . Yeah .
User Interface: um which {vocalsound} does already e exist but it's not very widely used I don't think .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Easy finder with the a whistle function or something ,
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: or rechargeable station because it's a pain when you run out of batteries .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: And I think that , yep , that's it .
Project Manager: That's cool .
Industrial Designer: So uh , I noticed your talk about speech recognition and whistling ,
User Interface: Okay ? Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and uh I was just curious to know , have we done any research into how many people can whistle ? Um , or if {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: is that a function we want in the remote ?
Project Manager: Um , do you have trouble whistling ?
User Interface: Um , I haven't been able to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I don't , but I I know a lot of people do right .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Really ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah it just
Project Manager: Ooh . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} I mean it has to be a certain kind of whistle too , right ?
Project Manager: Yeah , I suppose that's true .
User Interface: Mm-hmm , yeah
Project Manager: Well I suppo uh you could y you could have the
User Interface: or some sort of voice {disfmarker}
Project Manager: you could have the basically um instead of a whistle if it's got the voice recognition you could have it just , you know , where are you ? {gap} . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's costly though .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um a much easier thing is just any loud noise like clapping um , shouting , you know ,
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: uh and then , what would the response be ? It beeps back at you or something ?
Project Manager: Sounds good .
User Interface: Yeah , something .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well , uh let me set this up . So I plug it in , press F_ five ? Function F_ five ?
Project Manager: Function F_ eight for the um the uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Or function F_ eight ? Okay .
User Interface: Oh you need to twiddle the thingamibobsy thing .
Industrial Designer: Okay . I think it's {vocalsound} uh just to lock it in . It's got it .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um . {vocalsound} So as the Industrial Designer my job is to take an input from you guys ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: um so it's good you went first ,
Project Manager: Alright .
Industrial Designer: and I jotted down some notes as to what are the b needs and uh what kind of novel features we can add to differentiate our product from the others .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Let's remember that .
Industrial Designer: Um so Raj told us that uh consumers are willing to spend more for fancy products , and um he also mentioned that uh the current products don't always match users' operating behaviour . Um , a lot of the buttons aren't used , and uh {vocalsound} he mentioned that they're not fun to use . And uh a novel feature which uh we just brought up was this this automatic speech recognition feature or noise detection feature for when you lose the remote ,
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: there could be a little microphone on it , and any noise over a certain threshold um it'll pick up as a a distress signal um from you and it'll beep back and say you know oh here I am or something of this sort .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . But sure surely that would have to be um sort of specific rather than above a threshold 'cause if you had a loud movie on you're likely to get it beeping back at you .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah , yeah , that's true .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Well maybe you could have a um hmm {vocalsound} tha that would be a consideration to take into account yes . Um .
Project Manager: Sorry I didn't mean to derail you there . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah well tha that's uh for later down the road um , and then as for the user interface it should be trendy , um {vocalsound} and not computery ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: right , so more low tech and not too many buttons .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So I took these all into consideration and also I have some limitations from the boss .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right um , and practical limitations which I kinda threw out the window .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And so I did a little research and unfortunately all I had to work on was our uh our corporate archives of the great products we've made before ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: which include , you know , um space craft , coffee makers , and bullet trains {disfmarker} Or uh or a high speed train .
Project Manager: Ah is that what that is ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right and having personally worked with all these products uh I have a great deal of experience with uh with industrial design of these .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well that's cool . If you if you can build space craft you'll have no problem with a remote control , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right . So ,
User Interface: Yeah sure .
Industrial Designer: I figured , just put 'em all together .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You got a a caffeine powered space shuttle train transport to your T_V_ , and um
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: as for the user interface problem , you know , too many buttons . Give it one button
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and and it's a {disfmarker} you know , for the the cowboy in all of us {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} I I'm not quite sure what the the function is there but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Right okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well I like that design . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah it's a g I mean you could have a you know a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is that just switches on the speech recognition and it's entirely speech operated , is it ?
Industrial Designer: Right . So I think I I missed the budget thing ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it was fifty million Euros ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And we gotta sell twenty five of them ? Right . {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , not a problem .
Marketing: Fifty million was uh prof
Project Manager: Ah now it's fif fifty million Euros we've gotta uh we've g {vocalsound}
Marketing: As a profit .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh okay , so I I mixed those numbers .
Project Manager: gotta make profit , so we're making that at twelve and a half Euros a time .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay . Well I guess more realistically then , we need a product that's got some kinda nifty outer casing , cheap plastic uh , you know , um that should be just like uh a tenth of the price maybe or less .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: An energy source which'd probably just be uh your regular batteries {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: um , we don't wanna have it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Would it be possible to have the rechargeable idea ? Is that is that gonna mark up a lot ?
Industrial Designer: Uh .
User Interface: Or a little base station or something , {gap} .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah , we could do that too . Um , I hadn't thought of that . Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} That might cost more though , 'cause obviously with batteries we don't need to provide , well we provide the first batteries , but it's more , it's {disfmarker} that's cheaper to just provide batteries .
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: I mean if you think about these base stations now it's essentially just a a lead with a sort of self connecting brake in it ,
User Interface: A battery in it , kinda .
Project Manager: so I don't think it'd up up the price that much .
Industrial Designer: Right , so so {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: the unirs the user interface
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: uh the canonical user interface for these would be just a bunch of buttons , but since we're a cutting edge company , we uh of course will have alternatives like uh speech recognition , whistling recognition and rocket power
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: behind our product .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um and lastly the transmission interface is uh , just some engineering thing you don't have to worry about .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um so here's you know , a great schematic that my uh apprentice designer gave me .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um as you can see the the remote control have parts and those parts look like that and um {vocalsound} you know it's got a little operating procedure that looks something like that . {vocalsound} And I suppose you all know how it works because we've all used it and we wouldn't be in a company designing remote controls if we didn't know what they were so {disfmarker} uh personal preferences , I think uh programmable options which um just require a small amount of memory , uh non volatile memory , just um so the user can put in their favourite channels and maybe their preferred volume settings so that when they turn it on it's not blasting .
User Interface: Mm . Mm that's a good idea actually I like the programmable options .
Marketing: Yeah , me too .
Industrial Designer: Oh okay . And the uh , the bells and whistles that we mentioned you know , they take more budgeting , um more technical uh expenditure of effort
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and it's also much more likely to not work if if we add these bells and whistles .
Project Manager: Right .
User Interface: Mm 'kay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: That's all I got .
Project Manager: 'Kay , thank you very much , um I'll take that back .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Ooh that's tight .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Right , also so um a notice I got not very long before the meeting , so didn't manage to forward it on to you , it is {disfmarker} let's see , I'll find it myself , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Ta
Industrial Designer: Okay , I don't think we need to screw it in .
Project Manager: nah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Just push it .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: We had that um to dis-include teletext um because it's become outdated , and everybody uses the internet anyway . Um , {vocalsound} dunno what Oracle would have to say with that but never mind .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um it's only for the television , which I'm presuming means it's for a specific television ,
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: and um instead of colours and sorta colour options , they want corporate colour and slogan somehow implemented in the new design .
User Interface: Corporate colour .
Project Manager: Yellow .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yellow . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I presume . Um , everything , all their sort of uh you know the uh corporate website and everything's yellow .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And the logo uh the sort of slogan we put the fa fashion in electronics uh {disfmarker} I don't know exactly how sort of incorpor I mean , I guess if you're going for a sort of globular shape you could kind of have it working its way round it or something .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh , where am I ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay , so , we have to decide on which functions we're going to actually have .
User Interface: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Uh , {vocalsound} now , we had as listed options we had
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: speech recognition potentially , flat screen interface , L_C_D_ interface um we also want to limit the number of buttons so we'll pretty much take that one as read .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: We'll use the the basic functions for a television . No teletext . Um {vocalsound} okay hold on .
User Interface: Although the the danger with that is , it could look a bit cheap .
Project Manager: Not enough buttons you mean ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So sorta strike a balance between a a few and a {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: or it looks like we're just cutting on the um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm . On the number of buttons , kind of functions and stuff .
Project Manager: I do however have this from over my head , that they don't want teletext on it .
User Interface: Mm-hmm , okay . Okay , cool .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh maybe Raj you could find out what people would think about that , or maybe they'll send
Marketing: About cost .
Project Manager: some information about that , about um what people , whether people would require um teletext in a remote {disfmarker} teletext option in a remote control .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound} Okay um {gap} . So uh I take it your position Arlo is that the bells and whistles we've gotta come up with the {disfmarker} a gimmick but not too complicated a gimmick .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah .
Project Manager: Um so I mean a a the sort of inkling I'm getting from little bits of um web chatter that I'm getting sent is that they're quite interested in a T_F_T_ display , interactive display . However that does sound a bit like the more complicated design that rav uh sorry Raj um {vocalsound} said people didn't like . Although I guess if there's a sort of {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
Project Manager: If you think about standard interfaces that people use already , sort of Windows-style drop down menus or whatever ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: I think maybe that's a bit , going a bit far
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: but you know like in a basic sense that you could have your basic selection of buttons , and if you hit a sort of menu at the top you have um {vocalsound} it goes to a different selection of buttons , so it sorta keeps it simple .
User Interface: Yeah . Okay .
Project Manager: Um glow in the dark , is that sort of with a light inside it or is it sort of glow in the dark material ?
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh .
User Interface: Glow in the dark material I was thinking .
Project Manager: Okay . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: I {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um , so I I guess that would be cheaper than a light I think .
Marketing: Uh may I say something about {gap} ?
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: Uh actually I think it's really really very important point uh as if we look at the market because people mor fifty percent people they find that the remote controls are often lost somewhere in the remote , in the room . But {disfmarker}
User Interface: Often lost s was that ,
Marketing: yeah are lost
Project Manager: Lost , yeah .
User Interface: yeah .
Marketing: and means they forget where they have kept the remote control last time . But if we add speech recognition as well as glow in the dark then both these factors will help their locating the remote control ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Marketing: like if they come and speak something at the remote control uh replies to something something and it glows in the dark . Both these factors uh both these points will help them to locate the where they have kept this remote control ,
Project Manager: That's cool .
User Interface: Mm-hmm ,
Marketing: and this will definitely enhance our uh market sales ,
Project Manager: That's cool .
User Interface: mm-hmm .
Marketing: so we should take it into consideration also .
Project Manager: Okay , cool .
Industrial Designer: Well hmm .
Project Manager: Um speech recognition I take it {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I don't , I've {disfmarker} I know of no products um that use speech recognition well .
Industrial Designer: They're act there there was a remote control that came out two years ago that had a {disfmarker} some basic speech recognition on it . You could programme it with your channels and then you say you know like uh B_B_C_ one and it goes to that channel .
Project Manager: Really ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it didn't work very well though because of this noise interference problem . They mentioned you know if the television says you are listening to B_B_C_ one {gap} .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah , or a yeah an advert an advert for B_B_C_ two on B_B_C_ one'll switch the channel for you kinda thing .
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Right , right , and so there was a lot of this , you'd be watching the T_V_ and then all of a sudden it'd it'd pick up a noise and turn it off or you know or turn the volume off or something ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: but if you can work around that that noise problem {disfmarker}
User Interface: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
User Interface: Well what about {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: this might get a bit too expensive actually , but what about um something that's built into the T_V_ um that you can press and it'll send out a little signal you know like the ones that we can't hear or {vocalsound} something
Project Manager: Ah , that's a good idea .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: um that that will activate the remote control starts to beep .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: So like a kind of backwards remote from the telly . {vocalsound}
User Interface: If you find if y
Industrial Designer: Right and then it would do just you know , uh subtractive kind of cancellation of the noise .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: What you could do then would be you have uh {vocalsound} a remote controlled by the T_V_ speaker , or not a remo I'm sorry , a microphone by the T_V_ speaker and a transmitter there that sends back to your remote , 'cause you can't um expect uh the the television manufacturers to to put that feature into their T_V_s .
User Interface: Mm . Yeah , that's the only thing , yeah .
Industrial Designer: But yeah , then you have like the little se separate module by the T_V_ speaker
Project Manager: That we should just stick on , yeah .
Industrial Designer: which {disfmarker}
User Interface: That comes with our remote control .
Industrial Designer: Right , and then the remote control would know um what's being produced by the television .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: And that's a sort of basic R_F_ kind of frequency so it'll be cheap .
Industrial Designer: Right , right .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Right , right . Um . {vocalsound} Yeah that's certainly possible then an another thing was about this losing the remote and trying to find it again . If you do have this sorta speech interface to it , you don't even need to find it . You just say you know , um whatever you whatever you want the remote for , you know to change the channel or to uh turn the T_V_ on and off , you just shout your command to it and it would do it for you if it's within you know , within hearing range . And uh you know it could be somewhere in the room y that you've no idea where it is and it would still do its job .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
User Interface: That could also be built into the T_V_ though , which might make our remote control a bit obsolete .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Well , hopefully we're uh we're ahead of the curve . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It might do us out of a job .
User Interface: Yeah , okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Okay . {vocalsound} I like the whole sort of remote feedback thing . Um so I think rather than {disfmarker} and that also kind of takes out the speech recognition in terms of the interference of it not working very well and things like that ,
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: so I th
User Interface: And the expense .
Project Manager: yeah and expense and the time .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So I think if we're going to go {disfmarker} well I mean like the thing about the {disfmarker} there's the problem with the T_F_T_ or the L_C_D_ kind of thing is if you're also wanting the the kind of uh organic globby sort of feeling to it then you might have trouble incorporating the screen .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Um , but I guess not I thin we'll just we'll just pretend that's not a problem . Um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh {vocalsound} and how are you about the glow in the dark material ? Is that {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Um .
User Interface: Maybe not even all of it 'cause we said um colours and fashion w were important so maybe um just like a little l line that's kind of around the outside and then you can make the rest a different colour .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Contrast contra well .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , no th the material's cheap but it's just uh the the glow in the dark material needs some light to charge it you know , and then uh if you're , if you're sitting in the dark for too long it uh it won't glow any more .
Project Manager: Yeah , okay .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So if it's dow it's d uh yeah . Or if it's down under the couch cushions
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: um which is where I usually find mine .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Okay , well we can use {disfmarker} we can still use the glow in the dark as a gimmick essentially ,
User Interface: Yeah ,
Project Manager: um if we're gonna have to {disfmarker}
User Interface: 'cause what I thought , main {disfmarker}
Project Manager: if we're gonna have the logo on as well , bright yellow logo in our our um slogan .
User Interface: Slogan , yeah .
Project Manager: Uh then you know they're gonna be fairly brightly coloured anyway , and we can have sort of a a a trimming as well , of the glow in the dark material , just as gimmickyness .
User Interface: Right . Mm-hmm . 'Cause yeah , that w more than finding it , that was more like you know if you're watching a film in the dark , you can um still see the remote control .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Alright , so n sorta if if if we're gon if we're gonna go with the idea of um {vocalsound} uh of feedback , sort of remote finder , then that kinda stuffs that one out then .
User Interface: That was more of a a gimmick .
Project Manager: Do you think ?
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Uh it makes it fairly unnecessary then .
User Interface: Yeah , unnecessary . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . Um , okay so scratch that . Uh so we've got do we want to go with the T_F_T_ idea or the {disfmarker} is that far too expensive ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um yeah we're getting a lot of features now , I I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well I mean I think I think the sort of find the finder things I mean it's uh I could probably write the circuit diagram for that myself .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well , I think a consideration too is that these uh remotes get abused a lot , you know they get thrown around ,
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: there's a good chance the the T_F_T_ screen would break or uh get damaged .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: They're pretty fragile .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: So is that one of our definite requirements that they wa that it needs a T_F_T_ screen ?
Project Manager: Um no , I mean {gap} that was going on ravs uh Raj's sort of um marketing research I guess . Um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} So we'll stick with sort of programmability um for the buttons that we do have . Um . {gap} So that's sort of included in your sub-module kind of stuff , um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh {vocalsound} you were finding out about teletext .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: If you could find out that uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Totally , it takes cheap speech recognition , she {disfmarker} they wi
Project Manager: Um I think we're gonna scratch the speech recognition as a bit of a
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Project Manager: um expensive ,
User Interface: Yeah you think so ?
Industrial Designer: Oh no it's it's much cheaper than the T_F_T_ , it's just a microphone and some some integrated circuits .
Project Manager: no ? Oh right , okay .
Industrial Designer: And it'd it'd be a small vocabulary speech recognition system ,
Project Manager: Is it not the circuits that cost {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: like a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh right , okay .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Uh well that kind of takes back the R_F_ {vocalsound} the R_F_ remote sort of idea as well .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um . {vocalsound} Five minutes . Okay . Decisions . Uh , votes , let's vote . Who wants T_F_T_ ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No-one does .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Excellent , so we'll go with speech recognition , yeah ?
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm , that's cool .
Project Manager: Um , speech recognition , limited buttons , organic design . And what else was I thinking of that I haven't written down and therefore fallen out my head ,
User Interface: Um
Project Manager: programmability .
Marketing: Glow in dark .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: if it's not too expensive s I think it's a good gimmick .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh o okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {gap}
Project Manager: And also , integrating the , remember to integrate the logo and the s slogan . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay , so . Um can you put all these reports in the project documents folder if they're not already in there as well . So , it just helps me summarize them .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah .
Marketing: Here ? Sure .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And um I'll put any {disfmarker} {gap} I'm I'm putting anything I do in there anyway , so uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: And where is it sorry ?
Project Manager: Uh pro uh project documents .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So it should be when you save
Project Manager: On A_M_I_ scenario controller .
Industrial Designer: on your desktop , so it goes save as , or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh {gap} .
Marketing: Uh it is in shared documents ?
Industrial Designer: And then uh hit that little folder up thing again .
Project Manager: Where am I ?
Marketing: Projoct uh projector .
Industrial Designer: Again .
Project Manager: Project documents , yeah , it's on your desktop as well .
Industrial Designer: All the way to the top , yeah that's up to desktop . Right and then project documents .
User Interface: Okay , cool .
Marketing: Hmm . It is not giving anything .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Shared documents .
Project Manager: And I will tr {gap} getting strings of um information , I'll try and forward any specific to anybody in particular , as soon as I get them now , rather than {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: I was about to sort of tell you about the changes before the meeting , and then the meeting turned up , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Did you get my email ? Okay .
Project Manager: I did {gap} . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Just making sure .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} What I thought as well about the material is um maybe not this kind of material , but maybe more like um this kind of rubbery material , it's a bit more bouncy , like you said they get chucked around a lot . Um , a bit more {vocalsound} durable and that can also be ergonomic
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: and it kind of feels a bit different from all the other remote controls .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: The rubber rather than {disfmarker}
Project Manager: More sort of um flesh-like than plasticky sort of .
User Interface: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Wow .
Marketing: Um but we have to take care like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But we have to take care of our children also if they {disfmarker} {vocalsound} means if children catch hold of your or if they chew it it shouldn't be too harmful . So , whatever material we use it should be {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Oh no , ethics , {vocalsound} that's gonna cost us money . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So {vocalsound} we have to safety point of view also , we have to take care .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay , safety .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Oh I think wi with the more organic shape of it it won't be as {disfmarker} it won't as have many sharp corners as that , so that's something good , um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: I dunno , I mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We could go comp yeah .
Project Manager: It sme {vocalsound} smells good for children . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We could go completely out of the box and make the thing a big red ball foam ball .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And it's got the thing on the inside .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And there's no buttons at all , it's always on , and just yell at it , and it works .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That sounds ,
User Interface: That's a good idea .
Industrial Designer: And then ch children will love it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah it's gonna have to be it's gonna be have a big yellow foam ball , yeah , sorry .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Interesting .
Industrial Designer: Oh yellow , yellow ball . Right .
User Interface: Yeah , d with the colour , um does it have to be all yellow , do you know ?
Project Manager: Please God no . Um . Well , I wouldn't th I mean ,
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: my reaction to an all-yellow remote control wouldn't be anything other than horror , so I think just having it
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Small logo with the like a small yellow strip or y yellow {gap} with the logo in it .
Project Manager: surrounding the logo .
User Interface: Having a little bit . Okay cool . Mm mm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm , okay .
Project Manager: And I'll see if I can argue with boss about putting the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Cool .
Project Manager: what was it ? We put {vocalsound} we put fashion into {disfmarker} Whoops , it's not working . Can't believe I've forgotten it {gap} . We put the fashion in electronics . {vocalsound} I bet that'll catch on well .
User Interface: Oh yeah , that's a good one that . Yeah so .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay , any last
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Twelve thirty .
Project Manager: worries , queries ? Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} S s {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: I know what you're thinking .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay then , lunchtime , yay .
Marketing: That's good .
Project Manager: Okay , that felt a bit more like a {disfmarker} something with order and and reason to it than the last one .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is quite fun actually .
User Interface: Wow .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Has anybo oh .
Project Manager: I really don't {disfmarker}
User Interface: Has anybody pressed okay , it vibrates . It's pretty cool .
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: Check here .
Project Manager: Wow you've {gap} your first page .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah I've been using up the pages .
Project Manager: I was just writing really big . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , got small writing . I don't wanna waste it .
Project Manager: I've finished the meeting now .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Another questionnaire .
Project Manager: Oh , everybody needs k questionnaire .
Marketing: {vocalsound} | |
doc_136 | Grad C: Yeah , we had a long discussion about how much w how easy we want to make it for people to bleep things out . So {disfmarker} Morgan wants to make it hard .
PhD D: It {disfmarker} it doesn't {disfmarker}
Grad C: Did {disfmarker} did {disfmarker} did it {disfmarker} ? I didn't even check yesterday whether it was moving .
PhD D: It didn't move yesterday either when I started it .
Grad C: So .
PhD D: So I don't know if it doesn't like both of us {disfmarker}
Grad C: Channel three ? Channel three ?
PhD D: You know , I discovered something yesterday on these , um , wireless ones .
Grad B: Channel two .
Grad C: Mm - hmm ?
PhD D: You can tell if it 's picking up {pause} breath noise and stuff .
Grad C: Yeah , it has a little indicator on it {disfmarker} on the AF .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . So if you {disfmarker} yeah , if you breathe under {disfmarker} breathe and then you see AF go off , then you know {pause} it 's p picking up your mouth noise .
PhD F: Oh , that 's good . Cuz we have a lot of breath noises .
Grad C: Yep . Test .
PhD F: In fact , if you listen to just the channels of people not talking , it 's like " @ @ " . It 's very disgust
Grad C: What ? Did you see Hannibal recently or something ?
PhD F: Sorry . Exactly . It 's very disconcerting . OK . So , um ,
Grad C:
PhD F: I was gonna try to get out of here , like , in half an hour , um , cuz I really appreciate people coming , and {vocalsound} the main thing that I was gonna ask people to help with today is {pause} to give input on what kinds of database format we should {pause} use in starting to link up things like word transcripts and annotations of word transcripts , so anything that transcribers or discourse coders or whatever put in the signal , {vocalsound} with time - marks for , like , words and phone boundaries and all the stuff we get out of the forced alignments and the recognizer . So , we have this , um {disfmarker} I think a starting point is clearly the {disfmarker} the channelized {pause} output of Dave Gelbart 's program , which Don brought a copy of ,
Grad C: Yeah . Yeah , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm familiar with that . I mean , we {disfmarker} I sort of already have developed an XML format for this sort of stuff .
PhD F: um , which {disfmarker}
PhD D: Can I see it ?
Grad C: And so the only question {disfmarker} is it the sort of thing that you want to use or not ? Have you looked at that ? I mean , I had a web page up .
PhD F: Right . So ,
Grad C: So {disfmarker}
PhD F: I actually mostly need to be able to link up , or {disfmarker} I it 's {disfmarker} it 's a question both of what the representation is and {disfmarker}
Grad C: You mean , this {disfmarker} I guess I am gonna be standing up and drawing on the board .
PhD F: OK , yeah . So you should , definitely .
Grad C: Um , so {disfmarker} so it definitely had that as a concept . So tha it has a single time - line ,
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: and then you can have lots of different sections , each of which have I Ds attached to it , and then you can refer from other sections to those I Ds , if you want to . So that , um {disfmarker} so that you start with {disfmarker} with a time - line tag . " Time - line " . And then you have a bunch of times . I don't e I don't remember exactly what my notation was ,
PhD A: Oh , I remember seeing an example of this .
Grad C: but it {disfmarker}
PhD F: Right , right .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad C: Yeah , " T equals one point three two " , uh {disfmarker} And then I {disfmarker} I also had optional things like accuracy , and then " ID equals T one , uh , one seven " . And then , {nonvocalsound} I also wanted to {disfmarker} to be i to be able to not specify specifically what the time was and just have a stamp .
PhD F: Right .
Grad C: Yeah , so these are arbitrary , assigned by a program , not {disfmarker} not by a user . So you have a whole bunch of those . And then somewhere la further down you might have something like an utterance tag which has " start equals T - seventeen , end equals T - eighteen " . So what that 's saying is , we know it starts at this particular time . We don't know when it ends .
PhD F: OK .
Grad C: Right ? But it ends at this T - eighteen , which may be somewhere else . We say there 's another utterance . We don't know what the t time actually is but we know that it 's the same time as this end time .
PhD A: Mmm .
Grad C: You know , thirty - eight , whatever you want .
PhD A: So you 're essentially defining a lattice .
Grad C: OK . Yes , exactly .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad C: And then , uh {disfmarker} and then these also have I Ds . Right ? So you could {disfmarker} you could have some sort of other {disfmarker} other tag later in the file that would be something like , um , oh , I don't know , {comment} uh , {nonvocalsound} " noise - type equals {nonvocalsound} door - slam " . You know ? And then , uh , {nonvocalsound} you could either say " time equals a particular time - mark " or you could do other sorts of references . So {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or you might have a prosody {disfmarker} " Prosody " right ? D ? T ? D ? T ? T ?
PhD F: It 's an O instead of an I , but the D is good .
Grad C: You like the D ? That 's a good D .
PhD F: Yeah .
Grad C: Um , you know , so you could have some sort of type here , and then you could have , um {disfmarker} the utterance that it 's referring to could be U - seventeen or something like that .
PhD F: OK . So , I mean , that seems {disfmarker} that seems g great for all of the encoding of things with time and ,
Grad C: Oh , well .
PhD F: um {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I guess my question is more , uh , what d what do you do with , say , a forced alignment ?
PhD A: How - how
PhD F: I mean you 've got all these phone labels , and what do you do if you {disfmarker} just conceptually , if you get , um , transcriptions where the words are staying but the time boundaries are changing , cuz you 've got a new recognition output , or s sort of {disfmarker} what 's the , um , sequence of going from the waveforms that stay the same , the transcripts that may or may not change , and then the utterance which {disfmarker} where the time boundaries that may or may not change {disfmarker} ?
PhD A: Oh , that 's {disfmarker} That 's actually very nicely handled here because you could {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker} all you 'd have to change is the , {vocalsound} um , time - stamps in the time - line without {disfmarker} without , uh , changing the I Ds .
PhD F: Um . And you 'd be able to propagate all of the {disfmarker} the information ?
Grad C: Right . That 's , the who that 's why you do that extra level of indirection . So that you can just change the time - line .
PhD A: Except the time - line is gonna be huge . If you say {disfmarker}
Grad C: Yes .
PhD F: Yeah ,
PhD A: suppose you have a phone - level alignment .
PhD F: yeah , especially at the phone - level .
PhD A: You 'd have {disfmarker} you 'd have {disfmarker}
PhD F: The {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we have phone - level backtraces .
Grad C: Yeah , this {disfmarker} I don't think I would do this for phone - level . I think for phone - level you want to use some sort of binary representation
PhD F: Um {disfmarker}
Grad C: because it 'll be too dense otherwise .
PhD F: OK . So , if you were doing that and you had this sort of companion , uh , thing that gets called up for phone - level , uh , what would that look like ?
PhD A: Why
Grad C: I would use just an existing {disfmarker} an existing way of doing it .
PhD F: How would you {disfmarker} ?
PhD A: Mmm . But {disfmarker} but why not use it for phone - level ?
PhD F: H h
PhD A: It 's just a matter of {disfmarker} it 's just a matter of it being bigger . But if you have {disfmarker} you know , barring memory limitations , or uh {disfmarker} I w I mean this is still the m
Grad C: It 's parsing limitations . I don't want to have this text file that you have to read in the whole thing to do something very simple for .
PhD A: Oh , no . You would use it only {pause} for {pause} purposes where you actually want the phone - level information , I 'd imagine .
PhD F: So you could have some file that configures how much information you want in your {disfmarker} in your XML or something .
Grad C: Right . I mean , you 'd {disfmarker} y
PhD F: Um ,
PhD A: You {disfmarker}
Grad C: I {disfmarker} I am imagining you 'd have multiple versions of this depending on the information that you want .
PhD F: cuz th it does get very bush with {disfmarker} Right .
Grad C: Um , I 'm just {disfmarker} what I 'm wondering is whether {disfmarker} I think for word - level , this would be OK .
PhD F: Yeah .
Grad C: For word - level , it 's alright .
PhD F: Yeah . Definitely .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: For lower than word - level , you 're talking about so much data that I just {disfmarker} I don't know . I don't know if that {disfmarker}
PhD F: I mean , we actually have {disfmarker} So , one thing that Don is doing , is we 're {disfmarker} we 're running {disfmarker} For every frame , you get a pitch value ,
PhD D: Lattices are big , too .
PhD F: and not only one pitch value but different kinds of pitch values
Grad C: Yeah , I mean , for something like that I would use P - file
PhD F: depending on {disfmarker}
Grad C: or {disfmarker} or any frame - level stuff I would use P - file .
PhD F: Meaning {disfmarker} ?
Grad C: Uh , that 's a {disfmarker} well , or something like it . It 's ICS uh , ICSI has a format for frame - level representation of features . Um .
PhD F: OK . That you could call {disfmarker} that you would tie into this representation with like an ID .
Grad C: Right . Right . Or {disfmarker} or there 's a {disfmarker} there 's a particular way in XML to refer to external resources .
PhD F: And {disfmarker} OK .
Grad C: So you would say " refer to this external file " . Um , so that external file wouldn't be in {disfmarker}
PhD F: So that might {disfmarker} that might work .
PhD D: But what {disfmarker} what 's the advantage of doing that versus just putting it into this format ?
Grad C: More compact , which I think is {disfmarker} is better .
PhD D: Uh - huh .
Grad C: I mean , if you did it at this {disfmarker}
PhD F: I mean these are long meetings and with {disfmarker} for every frame ,
Grad C: You don't want to do it with that {disfmarker} Anything at frame - level you had better encode binary
PhD F: um {disfmarker}
Grad C: or it 's gonna be really painful .
PhD A: Or you just compre I mean , I like text formats . Um , b you can always , uh , G - zip them , and , um , you know , c decompress them on the fly if y if space is really a concern .
PhD D: Yeah , I was thi I was thinking the advantage is that we can share this with other people .
Grad C: Well , but if you 're talking about one per frame , you 're talking about gigabyte - size files . You 're gonna actually run out of space in your filesystem for one file .
PhD F: These are big files . These are really {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker}
Grad C: Right ? Because you have a two - gigabyte limit on most O Ss .
PhD A: Right , OK . I would say {disfmarker} OK , so frame - level is probably not a good idea . But for phone - level stuff it 's perfectly {disfmarker}
PhD F: And th it 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: Like phones , or syllables , or anything like that .
PhD F: Phones are every five frames though , so . Or something like that .
PhD A: But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but most of the frames are actually not speech . So , you know , people don't {disfmarker} v Look at it , words times the average {disfmarker} The average number of phones in an English word is , I don't know , {comment} five maybe ?
PhD F: Yeah , but we actually {disfmarker}
PhD A: So , look at it , t number of words times five . That 's not {disfmarker} that not {disfmarker}
PhD F: Oh , so you mean pause phones take up a lot of the {disfmarker} long pause phones .
PhD A: Exactly .
Grad C: Yep .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD F: Yeah . OK . That 's true . But you do have to keep them in there . Y yeah .
Grad C: So I think it {disfmarker} it 's debatable whether you want to do phone - level in the same thing .
PhD F: OK .
Grad C: But I think , a anything at frame - level , even P - file , is too verbose .
PhD F: OK . So {disfmarker}
Grad C: I would use something tighter than P - files .
PhD F: Do you {disfmarker} Are you familiar with it ?
Grad C: So .
PhD F: I haven't seen this particular format ,
PhD A: I mean , I 've {disfmarker} I 've used them .
PhD F: but {disfmarker}
PhD A: I don't know what their structure is .
PhD F: OK .
PhD A: I 've forgot what the str
PhD D: But , wait a minute , P - file for each frame is storing a vector of cepstral or PLP values ,
Grad C: It 's whatever you want , actually .
PhD D: right ? Right .
Grad C: So that {disfmarker} what 's nice about the P - file {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} i Built into it is the concept of {pause} frames , utterances , sentences , that sort of thing , that structure . And then also attached to it is an arbitrary vector of values . And it can take different types .
PhD F: Oh .
Grad C: So it {disfmarker} th they don't all have to be floats . You know , you can have integers and you can have doubles , and all that sort of stuff .
PhD F: So that {disfmarker} that sounds {disfmarker} that sounds about what I w
Grad C: Um . Right ? And it has a header {disfmarker} it has a header format that {pause} describes it {pause} to some extent . So , the only problem with it is it 's actually storing the {pause} utterance numbers and the {pause} frame numbers in the file , even though they 're always sequential . And so it does waste a lot of space .
PhD A: Hmm .
Grad C: But it 's still a lot tighter than {disfmarker} than ASCII . And we have a lot of tools already to deal with it .
PhD F: You do ? OK . Is there some documentation on this somewhere ?
Grad C: Yeah , there 's a ton of it . Man - pages and , uh , source code , and me .
PhD F: OK , great . So , I mean , that sounds good . I {disfmarker} I was just looking for something {disfmarker} I 'm not a database person , but something sort of standard enough that , you know , if we start using this we can give it out , other people can work on it ,
Grad C: Yeah , it 's not standard .
PhD F: or {disfmarker} {comment} Is it {disfmarker} ?
Grad C: I mean , it 's something that we developed at ICSI . But , uh {disfmarker}
PhD F: But it 's {pause} been used here
Grad C: But it 's been used here
PhD F: and people 've {disfmarker}
Grad C: and {disfmarker} and , you know , we have a {pause} well - configured system that you can distribute for free , and {disfmarker}
PhD D: I mean , it must be the equivalent of whatever you guys used to store feat your computed features in , right ?
PhD F: OK .
PhD A: Yeah , th we have {disfmarker} Actually , we {disfmarker} we use a generalization of the {disfmarker} the Sphere format .
PhD D: Mmm .
PhD A: Um , but {disfmarker} Yeah , so there is something like that but it 's , um , probably not as sophist
Grad C: Well , what does H T K do for features ?
PhD D: And I think there 's {disfmarker}
Grad C: Or does it even have a concept of features ?
PhD A: They ha it has its own {disfmarker} I mean , Entropic has their own feature format that 's called , like , S - SD or some so SF or something like that .
PhD F: Yeah .
Grad C: I 'm just wondering , would it be worth while to use that instead ?
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: Hmm ?
PhD F: Yeah . Th - this is exactly the kind of decision {disfmarker} It 's just whatever {disfmarker}
PhD D: But , I mean , people don't typically share this kind of stuff , right ?
PhD A: Right .
Grad C: They generate their own .
PhD D: I mean {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD F: Actually , I {disfmarker} I just {disfmarker} you know , we {disfmarker} we 've done this stuff on prosodics and three or four places have asked for those prosodic files , and we just have an ASCII , uh , output of frame - by - frame .
Grad C: Ah , right .
PhD F: Which is fine , but it gets unwieldy to go in and {disfmarker} and query these files with really huge files .
Grad C: Right .
PhD F: I mean , we could do it . I was just thinking if there 's something that {disfmarker} where all the frame values are {disfmarker}
Grad C: And a and again , if you have a {disfmarker} if you have a two - hour - long meeting , that 's gonna {disfmarker}
PhD F: Hmm ? They 're {disfmarker} they 're fair they 're quite large .
Grad C: Yeah , I mean , they 'd be emo enormous .
PhD F: And these are for ten - minute Switchboard conversations ,
Grad C: Right .
PhD F: and {disfmarker} So it 's doable , it 's just that you can only store a feature vector at frame - by - frame and it doesn't have any kind of ,
PhD D: Is {disfmarker} is the sharing part of this a pretty important {pause} consideration
PhD F: um {disfmarker}
PhD D: or does that just sort of , uh {disfmarker} a nice thing to have ?
PhD F: I {disfmarker} I don't know enough about what we 're gonna do with the data . But I thought it would be good to get something that we can {disfmarker} that other people can use or adopt for their own kinds of encoding . And just , I mean we have to use some we have to make some decision about what to do .
Grad C: Yeah .
PhD F: And especially for the prosody work , what {disfmarker} what it ends up being is you get features from the signal , and of course those change every time your alignments change . So you re - run a recognizer , you want to recompute your features , um , and then keep the database up to date .
Grad C: Right .
PhD F: Or you change a word , or you change a {vocalsound} utterance boundary segment , which is gonna happen a lot . And so I wanted something where {pause} all of this can be done in a elegant way and that if somebody wants to try something or compute something else , that it can be done flexibly . Um , it doesn't have to be pretty , it just has to be , you know , easy to use , and {disfmarker}
Grad C: Yeah , the other thing {disfmarker} We should look at ATLAS , the NIST thing ,
PhD F: Oh .
PhD A: Mmm .
Grad C: and see if they have anything at that level .
PhD F: Uh {disfmarker}
Grad C: I mean , I 'm not sure what to do about this with ATLAS , because they chose a different route . I chose something that {disfmarker} Th - there are sort of two choices . Your {disfmarker} your file format can know about {disfmarker} know that you 're talking about language {pause} and speech , which is what I chose , and time , or your file format can just be a graph representation . And then the application has to impose the structure on top . So what it looked like ATLAS chose is , they chose the other way , which was their file format is just nodes and links , and you have to interpret what they mean yourself .
PhD F: And why did you not choose that type of approach ?
Grad C: Uh , because I knew that we were doing speech , and I thought it was better if you 're looking at a raw file to be {disfmarker} t for the tags to say " it 's an utterance " , as opposed to the tag to say " it 's a link " .
PhD F: OK . OK .
Grad C: So , but {disfmarker}
PhD F: But other than that , are they compatible ? I mean , you could sort of {disfmarker}
Grad C: Yeah , they 're reasonably compatible .
PhD F: I mean , you {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker}
PhD D: You could probably translate between them .
Grad C: Yep .
PhD F: Yeah , that 's w So ,
Grad C: So , well , the other thing is if we choose to use ATLAS , which maybe we should just do , we should just throw this out before we invest a lot of time in it .
PhD F: OK . I don't {disfmarker} So this is what the meeting 's about ,
Grad C: Yeah .
PhD F: just sort of how to {disfmarker} Um , cuz we need to come up with a database like this just to do our work . And I actually don't care , as long as it 's something useful to other people , what we choose .
Grad C: Yeah .
PhD F: So maybe it 's {disfmarker} maybe oth you know , if {disfmarker} if you have any idea of how to choose , cuz I don't .
Grad C: The only thing {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD A: Do they already have tools ?
Grad C: I mean , I {disfmarker} I chose this for a couple reasons . One of them is that it 's easy to parse . You don't need a full XML parser . It 's very easy to just write a Perl script {pause} to parse it .
PhD A: As long as uh each tag is on one line .
Grad C: Exactly . Exactly . Which I always do .
PhD F: And you can have as much information in the tag as you want , right ?
Grad C: Well , I have it structured . Right ? So each type tag has only particular items that it can take .
PhD F: Can you {disfmarker} But you can add to those structures if you {disfmarker}
Grad C: Sure . If you have more information . So what {disfmarker} What NIST would say is that instead of doing this , you would say something like " link {nonvocalsound} start equals , um , you know , some node ID ,
PhD F: Yeah . So {disfmarker}
Grad C: end equals some other node ID " , and then " type " would be " utterance " .
PhD A: Hmm .
Grad C: You know , so it 's very similar .
PhD F: So why would it be a {disfmarker} a waste to do it this way if it 's similar enough that we can always translate it ?
PhD D: It probably wouldn't be a waste . It would mean that at some point if we wanted to switch , we 'd just have to translate everything .
Grad C: Write a translator . But it se Since they are developing a big {disfmarker}
PhD F: But it {disfmarker} but that sounds {disfmarker}
PhD D: But that 's {disfmarker} I don't think that 's a big deal .
PhD F: As long as it is {disfmarker}
Grad C: they 're developing a big infrastructure . And so it seems to me that if {disfmarker} if we want to use that , we might as well go directly to what they 're doing , rather than {disfmarker}
PhD A: If we want to {disfmarker} Do they already have something that 's {disfmarker} that would be useful for us in place ?
PhD D: Yeah . See , that 's the question . I mean , how stable is their {disfmarker} Are they ready to go ,
Grad C: The {disfmarker} I looked at it {disfmarker}
PhD D: or {disfmarker} ?
Grad C: The last time I looked at it was a while ago , probably a year ago , uh , when we first started talking about this .
PhD D: Hmm .
Grad C: And at that time at least {vocalsound} it was still not very {pause} complete . And so , specifically they didn't have any external format representation at that time . They just had the sort of conceptual {pause} node {disfmarker} uh , annotated transcription graph , which I really liked . And that 's exactly what this stuff is based on . Since then , they 've developed their own external file format , which is , uh , you know , this sort of s this sort of thing . Um , and apparently they 've also developed a lot of tools , but I haven't looked at them . Maybe I should .
PhD A: We should {disfmarker} we should find out .
PhD F: I mean , would the tools {disfmarker} would the tools run on something like this , if you can translate them anyway ?
Grad C: Um , th what would {disfmarker} would {disfmarker} would {disfmarker} what would worry me is that maybe we might miss a little detail
PhD A: It 's a hassle
PhD F: I mean , that {disfmarker} I guess it 's a question that {disfmarker}
PhD A: if {disfmarker}
PhD F: uh , yeah .
Grad C: that would make it very difficult to translate from one to the other .
PhD F: OK .
PhD A: I {disfmarker} I think if it 's conceptually close , and they already have or will have tools that everybody else will be using , I mean , {vocalsound} it would be crazy to do something s you know , separate that {disfmarker}
PhD F: OK .
Grad C: Yeah , we might as well . Yep .
PhD F: Yeah .
Grad C: So I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll take a closer look at it .
PhD F: Actually , so it 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that would really be the question , is just what you would feel is in the long run the best thing .
Grad C: And {disfmarker} Right .
PhD F: Cuz {vocalsound} once we start , sort of , doing this I don't {disfmarker} we don't actually have enough time to probably have to rehash it out again
Grad C: The {disfmarker} Yep . The other thing {disfmarker} the other way that I sort of established this was as easy translation to and from the Transcriber format .
PhD F: and {disfmarker} s Right .
Grad C: Um ,
PhD F: Right .
Grad C: but {disfmarker}
PhD F: I mean , I like this . This is sort of intuitively easy to actually r read ,
Grad C: Yep .
PhD F: as easy it could {disfmarker} as it could be . But , I suppose that {pause} as long as they have a type here that specifies " utt " , um ,
Grad C: It 's almost the same .
PhD F: it 's {disfmarker} yeah , close enough that {disfmarker}
Grad C: The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the point is {disfmarker} with this , though , is that you can't really add any supplementary information . Right ? So if you suddenly decide that you want {disfmarker}
PhD F: You have to make a different type .
Grad C: Yeah . You 'd have to make a different type .
PhD F: So {disfmarker} Well , if you look at it and {disfmarker} Um , I guess in my mind I don't know enough {disfmarker} Jane would know better , {comment} about the {pause} types of annotations and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} But I imagine that those are things that would {disfmarker} well , you guys mentioned this , {comment} that could span any {disfmarker} it could be in its own channel , it could span time boundaries of any type ,
Grad C: Right .
PhD F: it could be instantaneous , things like that . Um , and then from the recognition side we have backtraces at the phone - level .
Grad C: Right .
PhD F: If {disfmarker} if it can handle that , it could handle states or whatever . And then at the prosody - level we have frame {disfmarker} sort of like cepstral feature files ,
Grad C: Yep .
PhD F: uh , like these P - files or anything like that . And that 's sort of the world of things that I {disfmarker} And then we have the aligned channels , of course ,
Grad C: Right .
PhD A: It seems to me you want to keep the frame - level stuff separate .
PhD F: and {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD A: And then {disfmarker}
PhD F: I {disfmarker} I definitely agree and I wanted to find actually a f a nicer format or a {disfmarker} maybe a more compact format than what we used before .
Grad C: Right .
PhD F: Just cuz you 've got {vocalsound} ten channels or whatever and two hours of a meeting . It 's {disfmarker} it 's a lot of {disfmarker}
Grad C: Huge .
PhD A: Now {disfmarker} now how would you {disfmarker} how would you represent , um , multiple speakers in this framework ? Were {disfmarker} You would just represent them as {disfmarker}
Grad C: Um ,
PhD A: You would have like a speaker tag or something ?
Grad C: there 's a spea speaker tag up at the top which identifies them and then each utt the way I had it is each turn or each utterance , {comment} I don't even remember now , had a speaker ID tag attached to it .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . OK .
Grad C: And in this format you would have a different tag , which {disfmarker} which would , uh , be linked to the link . So {disfmarker} so somewhere else you would have another thing {pause} that would be ,
PhD F: Yeah .
Grad C: um {disfmarker} Let 's see , would it be a node or a link ? Um {disfmarker} And so {disfmarker} so this one would have , um , an ID is link {disfmarker} {comment} link seventy - four or something like that .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: And then somewhere up here you would have a link that {disfmarker} that , uh , you know , was referencing L - seventy - four and had speaker Adam .
PhD A: Is i ?
Grad C: You know , or something like that .
PhD F: Actually , it 's the channel , I think , that {disfmarker}
PhD A: Well , channel or speaker or whatever .
PhD F: I mean , w yeah , channel is what the channelized output out
PhD A: It doesn't {disfmarker}
Grad C: This isn't quite right .
PhD A: Right .
Grad C: I have to look at it again .
PhD F: Yeah , but {disfmarker}
PhD A: But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} so how in the NIST format do we express {vocalsound} a hierarchical relationship between , um , say , an utterance and the words within it ? So how do you {pause} tell {pause} that {pause} these are the words that belong to that utterance ?
Grad C: Um , you would have another structure lower down than this that would be saying they 're all belonging to this ID .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: So each thing refers to the {pause} utterance that it belongs to .
Grad C: Right . And then each utterance could refer to a turn ,
PhD D: So it 's {disfmarker} it 's not hi it 's sort of bottom - up .
Grad C: and each turn could refer to something higher up .
PhD F: And what if you actually have {disfmarker} So right now what you have as utterance , um , the closest thing that comes out of the channelized is the stuff between the segment boundaries that the transcribers put in or that Thilo put in , which may or may not actually be , like , a s it 's usually not {disfmarker} um , the beginning and end of a sentence , say .
Grad C: Well , that 's why I didn't call it " sentence " .
PhD F: So , right . Um , so it 's like a segment or something .
Grad C: Yeah .
PhD F: So , I mean , I assume this is possible , that if you have {disfmarker} someone annotates the punctuation or whatever when they transcribe , you can say , you know , from {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} from the c beginning of the sentence to the end of the sentence , from the annotations , this is a unit , even though it never actually {disfmarker} i It 's only a unit by virtue of the annotations {pause} at the word - level .
Grad C: Sure . I mean , so you would {disfmarker} you would have yet another tag .
PhD F: And then that would get a tag somehow .
Grad C: You 'd have another tag which says this is of type " sentence " .
PhD F: OK . OK .
Grad C: And , what {disfmarker}
PhD F: But it 's just not overtly in the {disfmarker}
PhD A: OK .
PhD F: Um , cuz this is exactly the kind of {disfmarker}
PhD A: So {disfmarker}
PhD F: I think that should be {pause} possible as long as the {disfmarker} But , uh , what I don't understand is where the {disfmarker} where in this type of file {pause} that would be expressed .
Grad C: Right . You would have another tag somewhere . It 's {disfmarker} well , there 're two ways of doing it .
PhD F: S so it would just be floating before the sentence or floating after the sentence without a time - mark .
Grad C: You could have some sort of link type {disfmarker} type equals " sentence " , and ID is " S - whatever " . And then lower down you could have an utterance . So the type is " utterance " {disfmarker} equals " utt " . And you could either say that {disfmarker} No . I don't know {disfmarker}
PhD A: So here 's the thing .
Grad C: I take that back .
PhD A: Um {disfmarker}
Grad C: Can you {disfmarker} can you say that this is part of this ,
PhD F: See , cuz it 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: Hhh .
PhD F: it 's {disfmarker}
PhD D: You would just have a r
PhD F: S
Grad C: or do you say this is part of this ? I think {disfmarker}
PhD D: You would refer up to the sentence .
PhD F: But they 're {disfmarker}
PhD A: Well , the thing {disfmarker}
PhD F: they 're actually overlapping each other , sort of .
Grad C: So {disfmarker}
PhD A: the thing is that some something may be a part of one thing for one purpose and another thing of another purpose .
Grad C: Right .
PhD A: So f
PhD F: You have to have another type then , I guess .
PhD A: s Um , well , s let 's {disfmarker} let 's ta so let 's {disfmarker}
Grad C: Well , I think I 'm {disfmarker} I think w I had better look at it again
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD A: so {disfmarker}
Grad C: because I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker}
PhD F: OK . OK .
PhD A: y So for instance @ @ {comment} sup
Grad C: There 's one level {disfmarker} there 's one more level of indirection that I 'm forgetting .
PhD A: Suppose you have a word sequence and you have two different segmentations of that same word sequence . f Say , one segmentation is in terms of , um , you know , uh , sentences . And another segmentation is in terms of , um , {vocalsound} I don't know , {comment} prosodic phrases . And let 's say that they don't {pause} nest . So , you know , a prosodic phrase may cross two sentences or something .
Grad C: Right .
PhD A: I don't know if that 's true or not but {vocalsound} let 's as
PhD F: Well , it 's definitely true with the segment .
PhD A: Right .
PhD F: That 's what I {disfmarker} exactly what I meant by the utterances versus the sentence could be sort of {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah . So , you want to be s you want to say this {disfmarker} this word is part of that sentence and this prosodic phrase .
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD A: But the phrase is not part of the sentence
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD A: and neither is the sentence part of the phrase .
PhD F: Right .
Grad C: I I 'm pretty sure that you can do that , but I 'm forgetting the exact level of nesting .
PhD A: So , you would have to have {vocalsound} two different pointers from the word up {disfmarker} one level up , one to the sent
Grad C: So {disfmarker} so what you would end up having is a tag saying " here 's a word , and it starts here and it ends here " .
PhD A: Right .
Grad C: And then lower down you would say " here 's a prosodic boundary and it has these words in it " . And lower down you 'd have " here 's a sentence ,
PhD A: Right .
PhD F: An - Right .
Grad C: and it has these words in it " .
PhD F: So you would be able to go in and say , you know , " give me all the words in the bound in the prosodic phrase
Grad C: Yep .
PhD F: and give me all the words in the {disfmarker} " Yeah .
Grad C: So I think that 's {disfmarker} that would wor
PhD F: Um , OK .
Grad C: Let me look at it again .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . The {disfmarker} the o the other issue that you had was , how do you actually efficiently extract , um {disfmarker} find and extract information in a structure of this type ?
PhD F: OK .
Grad C: So .
PhD F: That 's good .
PhD A: So you gave some examples like {disfmarker}
PhD F: Well , uh , and , I mean , you guys might {disfmarker} I don't know if this is premature because I suppose once you get the representation you can do this , but the kinds of things I was worried about is ,
PhD A: No , that 's not clear .
PhD F: uh {disfmarker}
PhD A: I mean , yeah , you c sure you can do it ,
PhD F: Well , OK . So i if it {disfmarker}
PhD A: but can you do it sort of l l you know , it {disfmarker}
PhD F: I I mean , I can't do it , but I can {disfmarker} um ,
PhD A: y y you gotta {disfmarker} you gotta do this {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you 're gonna want to do this very quickly
Grad C: Well {disfmarker}
PhD A: or else you 'll spend all your time sort of searching through very {vocalsound} complex data structures {disfmarker}
PhD F: Right . You 'd need a p sort of a paradigm for how to do it . But an example would be " find all the cases in which Adam started to talk while Andreas was talking and his pitch was rising , Andreas 's pitch " . That kind of thing .
Grad C: Right . I mean , that 's gonna be {disfmarker} Is the rising pitch a {pause} feature , or is it gonna be in the same file ?
PhD F: Well , the rising pitch will never be {pause} hand - annotated . So the {disfmarker} all the prosodic features are going to be automatically {disfmarker}
Grad C: But the {disfmarker} I mean , that 's gonna be hard regardless ,
PhD F: So they 're gonna be in those {disfmarker}
Grad C: right ? Because you 're gonna have to write a program that goes through your feature file and looks for rising pitches .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD F: So {disfmarker} Right . So normally what we would do is we would say " what do we wanna assign rising pitch to ? " Are we gonna assign it to words ? Are we gonna just assign it to sort of {disfmarker} when it 's rising we have a begin - end rise representation ? But suppose we dump out this file and we say , uh , for every word we just classify it as , w you know , rise or fall or neither ?
Grad C: OK . Well , in that case you would add that to this {pause} format
PhD F: OK .
Grad C: r
PhD F: So we would basically be sort of , um , taking the format and enriching it with things that we wanna query in relation to the words that are already in the file ,
Grad C: Right .
PhD F: and then querying it .
PhD A: You want sort of a grep that 's {disfmarker} that works at the structural {disfmarker} on the structural representation .
PhD F: OK .
Grad C: You have that . There 's a {pause} standard again in XML , specifically for searching XML documents {disfmarker} structured X - XML documents , where you can specify both the content and the structural position .
PhD A: Yeah , but it 's {disfmarker} it 's not clear that that 's {disfmarker} That 's relative to the structure of the XML document ,
PhD F: If {disfmarker}
PhD A: not to the structure of what you 're representing in the document .
Grad C: You use it as a tool . You use it as a tool , not an end - user . It 's not an end - user thing .
PhD A: Right .
Grad C: It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} you would use that to build your tool to do that sort of search .
PhD A: Right . Be Because here you 're specifying a lattice .
PhD F: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD A: So the underlying {disfmarker} that 's the underlying data structure . And you want to be able to search in that lattice .
PhD F: But as long as the {disfmarker}
Grad C: It 's a graph , but {disfmarker}
PhD A: That 's different from searching through the text .
PhD F: But it seems like as long as the features that {disfmarker}
Grad C: Well , no , no , no . The whole point is that the text and the lattice are isomorphic . They {pause} represent each other {pause} completely .
PhD A: Um {disfmarker}
Grad C: So that {disfmarker} I mean th
PhD F: That 's true if the features from your acoustics or whatever that are not explicitly in this are at the level of these types .
PhD A: Hhh .
PhD F: That {disfmarker} that if you can do that {disfmarker}
Grad C: Yeah , but that 's gonna be the trouble no matter what . Right ? No matter what format you choose , you 're gonna have the trou you 're gonna have the difficulty of relating the {disfmarker} the frame - level features {disfmarker}
PhD F: That 's right . That 's true . That 's why I was trying to figure out what 's the best format for this representation .
Grad C: Yep .
PhD F: And it 's still gonna be {disfmarker}
PhD A: Hmm .
PhD F: it 's still gonna be , uh , not direct .
Grad C: Right .
PhD F: You know , it {disfmarker} Or another example was , you know , uh , where in the language {disfmarker} where in the word sequence are people interrupting ? So , I guess that one 's actually easier .
PhD D: What about {disfmarker} what about , um , the idea of using a relational database to , uh , store the information from the XML ? So you would have {disfmarker} XML basically would {disfmarker} Uh , you {disfmarker} you could use the XML to put the data in , and then when you get data out , you put it back in XML . So use XML as sort of the {disfmarker} the transfer format ,
Grad C: Transfer .
PhD D: uh , but then you store the data in the database , which allows you to do all kinds of {pause} good search things in there .
Grad C: The , uh {disfmarker} One of the things that ATLAS is doing is they 're trying to define an API which is independent of the back store ,
PhD F: Huh .
Grad C: so that , uh , you could define a single API and the {disfmarker} the storage could be flat XML files or a database .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: My opinion on that is for the s sort of stuff that we 're doing , {comment} I suspect it 's overkill to do a full relational database , that , um , just a flat file and , uh , search tools I bet will be enough .
PhD A: But {disfmarker}
Grad C: But that 's the advantage of ATLAS , is that if we actually take {disfmarker} decide to go that route completely and we program to their API , then if we wanted to add a database later it would be pretty easy .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD F: It seems like the kind of thing you 'd do if {disfmarker} I don't know , if people start adding all kinds of s bells and whistles to the data . And so that might be {disfmarker} I mean , it 'd be good for us to know {disfmarker} to use a format where we know we can easily , um , input that to some database if other people are using it .
Grad C: Yep .
PhD F: Something like that .
Grad C: I guess I 'm just a little hesitant to try to go whole hog on sort of the {disfmarker} the whole framework that {disfmarker} that NIST is talking about , with ATLAS and a database and all that sort of stuff ,
PhD F: So {disfmarker}
Grad C: cuz it 's a big learning curve , just to get going .
PhD D: Hmm .
PhD A: Hmm .
Grad C: Whereas if we just do a flat file format , sure , it may not be as efficient but everyone can program in Perl and {disfmarker} and use it .
PhD F: OK .
Grad C: Right ?
PhD A: But this is {disfmarker}
Grad C: So , as opposed to {disfmarker}
PhD A: I {disfmarker} I 'm still , um , {vocalsound} not convinced that you can do much at all on the text {disfmarker} on the flat file that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} you know , the text representation . e Because the text representation is gonna be , uh , not reflecting the structure of {disfmarker} of your words and annotations . It 's just {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}
Grad C: Well , if it 's not representing it , then how do you recover it ? Of course it 's representing it .
PhD A: No . You {disfmarker} you have to {disfmarker} what you have to do is you have to basically {disfmarker}
Grad C: That 's the whole point .
PhD A: Y yeah . You can use Perl to read it in and construct a internal representation that is essentially a lattice . But , the {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker}
Grad C: OK .
PhD D: Yeah .
Grad C: Well , that was a different point .
PhD A: Right .
Grad C: Right ? So what I was saying is that {disfmarker}
PhD A: But that 's what you 'll have to do . Bec - be
Grad C: For Perl {disfmarker} if you want to just do Perl . If you wanted to use the structured XML query language , that 's a different thing . And it 's a set of tools {vocalsound} that let you specify given the D - DDT {disfmarker} DTD of the document , um , what sorts of structural searches you want to do . So you want to say that , you know , you 're looking for , um , a tag within a tag within a particular tag that has this particular text in it , um , and , uh , refers to a particular value . And so the point isn't that an end - user , who is looking for a query like you specified , wouldn't program it in this language . What you would do is , someone would build a tool that used that as a library . So that they {disfmarker} so that you wouldn't have to construct the internal representations yourself .
PhD F: Is a {disfmarker} See , I think the kinds of questions , at least in the next {disfmarker} to the end of this year , are {disfmarker} there may be a lot of different ones , but they 'll all have a similar nature . They 'll be looking at either a word - level prosodic , uh , an {disfmarker} a value ,
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: like a continuous value , like the slope of something . But you know , we 'll do something where we {disfmarker} some kind of data reduction where the prosodic features are sort o uh , either at the word - level or at the segment - level ,
Grad C: Right .
PhD F: or {disfmarker} or something like that . They 're not gonna be at the phone - level and they 're no not gonna be at the frame - level when we get done with sort of giving them simpler shapes and things . And so the main thing is just being able {disfmarker} Well , I guess , the two goals . Um , one that Chuck mentioned is starting out with something that we don't have to start over , that we don't have to throw away if other people want to extend it for other kinds of questions ,
Grad C: Right .
PhD F: and being able to at least get enough , uh , information out on {disfmarker} where we condition the location of features on information that 's in the kind of file that you {pause} put up there . And that would {disfmarker} that would do it ,
Grad C: Yeah . I think that there are quick and dirty solutions ,
PhD F: I mean , for me .
Grad C: and then there are long - term , big - infrastructure solutions . And so {vocalsound} we want to try to pick something that lets us do a little bit of both .
PhD F: In the between , right . And especially that the representation doesn't have to be thrown away ,
Grad C: Um {disfmarker} Right .
PhD F: even if your tools change .
Grad C: And so it seems to me that {disfmarker} I mean , I have to look at it again to see whether it can really do what we want , but if we use the ATLAS external file representation , um , it seems like it 's rich enough that you could do quick tools just as I said in Perl , and then later on if we choose to go up the learning curve , we can use the whole ATLAS inter infrastructure ,
PhD F: Yeah . I mean , that sounds good to me .
Grad C: which has all that built in .
PhD F: I {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} So if {disfmarker} if you would l look at that and let us know what you think .
Grad C: Sure .
PhD F: I mean , I think we 're sort of guinea pigs , cuz I {disfmarker} I want to get the prosody work done but I don't want to waste time , you know , getting the {disfmarker}
PhD A: Oh , maybe {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah ?
PhD A: um {disfmarker}
Grad C: Well , I wouldn't wait for the formats , because anything you pick we 'll be able to translate to another form .
PhD A: Well {disfmarker} Ma well , maybe you should actually look at it yourself too to get a sense of what it is you 'll {disfmarker} you 'll be dealing with ,
PhD F: OK .
PhD A: because , um , you know , Adam might have one opinion but you might have another , so
Grad B: Yeah .
PhD F: Yeah , definitely .
PhD A: I think the more eyes look at this the better .
PhD F: Especially if there 's , e um {disfmarker} you know , if someone can help with at least the {disfmarker} the setup of the right {disfmarker}
Grad C: Hi , Jane .
PhD F: Oh , hi .
PhD A: Mmm .
PhD F: the right representation , then , i you know , I hope it won't {disfmarker} We don't actually need the whole full - blown thing to be ready ,
Grad C: Can you {disfmarker} Oh , well .
PhD F: so . Um , so maybe if you guys can look at it and sort of see what ,
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad C: Sure .
PhD F: um {disfmarker} I think we 're {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we 're actually just {disfmarker}
Grad C: We 're about done .
PhD F: yeah ,
Grad B: Hmm .
PhD F: wrapping up , but , um {disfmarker} Yeah , sorry , it 's a uh short meeting , but , um {disfmarker} Well , I don't know . Is there anything else , like {disfmarker} I mean that helps me a lot ,
Grad C: Well , I think the other thing we might want to look at is alternatives to P - file .
PhD F: but {disfmarker}
Grad C: I mean , th the reason I like P - file is I 'm already familiar with it , we have expertise here , and so if we pick something else , there 's the learning - curve problem . But , I mean , it is just something we developed at ICSI .
PhD A: Is there an {disfmarker} is there an IP - API ?
Grad C: And so {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD A: OK .
Grad C: There 's an API for it . And , uh ,
PhD A: There used to be a problem that they get too large ,
Grad C: a bunch of libraries , P - file utilities .
PhD A: and so {pause} basically the {disfmarker} uh the filesystem wouldn't {disfmarker}
Grad C: Well , that 's gonna be a problem no matter what . You have the two - gigabyte limit on the filesystem size . And we definitely hit that with Broadcast News .
PhD A: Maybe you could extend the API to , uh , support , uh , like splitting up , you know , conceptually one file into smaller files on disk so that you can essentially , you know , have arbitrarily long f
Grad C: Yep . Most of the tools can handle that .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad C: So that we didn't do it at the API - level . We did it at the t tool - level . That {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} most {disfmarker} many of them can s you can specify several P - files and they 'll just be done sequentially .
PhD A: OK .
Grad C: So .
PhD F: So , I guess , yeah , if {disfmarker} if you and Don can {disfmarker} if you can show him the P - file stuff and see .
Grad C: Sure .
PhD F: So this would be like for the F - zero {disfmarker}
Grad B: True .
Grad C: I mean , if you do " man P - file " or " apropos P - file " , you 'll see a lot .
Grad B: I 've used the P - file , I think . I 've looked at it at least , briefly , I think when we were doing s something .
PhD A: What does the P stand for anyway ?
Grad C: I have no idea .
Grad B: Oh , in there .
Grad C: I didn't de I didn't develop it . You know , it was {disfmarker} I think it was Dave Johnson . So it 's all part of the Quicknet library . It has all the utilities for it .
PhD A: No , P - files were around way before Quicknet . P - files were {disfmarker} were around when {disfmarker} w with , um , {vocalsound} RAP .
Grad C: Oh , were they ?
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Right ?
PhD F: It 's like the history of ICSI .
PhD A: You worked with P - files .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Like {disfmarker}
PhD D: No .
PhD A: I worked with P - files .
PhD F: Yeah ?
PhD D: I don't remember what the " P " is , though .
PhD A: No .
Grad C: But there are ni they 're {disfmarker} The {pause} Quicknet library has a bunch of things in it to handle P - files ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad C: so it works pretty well .
PhD A:
PhD F: And that isn't really , I guess , as important as the {disfmarker} the main {disfmarker} I don't know what you call it , the {disfmarker} the main sort of word - level {disfmarker}
Grad C: Neither do I .
PhD D: Probably stands for " Phil " . Phil Kohn .
Grad C: It 's a Phil file ?
PhD D: Yeah . That 's my guess .
PhD F: Huh . OK . Well , that 's really useful . I mean , this is exactly the kind of thing that I wanted to settle . Um , so {disfmarker}
Grad C: Yeah , I 've been meaning to look at the ATLAS stuff again anyway .
PhD F: Great .
Grad C: So , just keep {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah . I guess it 's also sort of a political deci I mean , if {disfmarker} if you feel like that 's a community that would be good to tie into anyway , then it 's {disfmarker} sounds like it 's worth doing .
Grad C: Yeah , I think it {disfmarker} it w
PhD A: j I think there 's {disfmarker}
Grad C: And , w uh , as I said , I {disfmarker} what I did with this stuff {disfmarker} I based it on theirs . It 's just they hadn't actually come up with an external format yet . So now that they have come up with a format , it doesn't {disfmarker} it seems pretty reasonable to use it .
PhD A: Mmm .
Grad C: But let me look at it again .
PhD F: OK , great .
Grad C: As I said , that {disfmarker}
PhD F: Cuz we actually can start {disfmarker}
Grad C: There 's one level {disfmarker} there 's one more level of indirection and I 'm just blanking on exactly how it works . I gotta look at it again .
PhD F: I mean , we can start with , um , I guess , this input from Dave 's , which you had printed out , the channelized input . Cuz he has all of the channels , you know , with the channels in the tag and stuff like that .
Grad C: Yeah , I 've seen it .
PhD F: So that would be i directly ,
Grad C: Yep . Easy {disfmarker} easy to map .
PhD F: um {disfmarker} Yeah . And so then it would just be a matter of getting {disfmarker} making sure to handle the annotations that are , you know , not at the word - level and , um , t to import the
Grad B: Where are those annotations coming from ?
PhD F: Well , right now , I g Jane would {disfmarker} {vocalsound} would {disfmarker}
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Yeah .
Postdoc E: Are you talking about the overlap a annotations ?
PhD F: Yeah , any kind of annotation {pause} that , like , isn't already there . Uh , you know , anything you can envision .
Postdoc E: Yeah . So what I was imagining was {disfmarker} um , so Dave says we can have unlimited numbers of green ribbons . And so put , uh , a {disfmarker} a green ribbon on for an overlap code . And since we w we {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it 's important to remain flexible regarding the time bins for now . And so it 's nice to have {disfmarker} However , you know , you want to have it , uh , time time uh , located in the discourse . So , um , if we {disfmarker} if we tie the overlap code to the first word in the overlap , then you 'll have a time - marking . It won't {disfmarker} it 'll be independent of the time bins , however these e evolve , shrink , or whatever , increase , or {disfmarker} Also , you could have different time bins for different purposes . And having it tied to the first word in an overlap segment is unique , uh , you know , anchored , clear . And it would just end up on a separate ribbon .
Grad C: Right .
Postdoc E: So the overlap coding is gonna be easy with respect to that . You look puzzled .
PhD D: I {disfmarker} I just {disfmarker} I don't quite understand what these things are .
Postdoc E: OK .
PhD D: Uh .
Postdoc E: What , the codes themselves ?
PhD D: Well , th overlap codes .
Postdoc E: Or the {disfmarker} ?
PhD D: I 'm not sure what that @ @ {disfmarker}
Grad C: Well , I mean , is that {disfmarker}
PhD D: It probably doesn't matter .
Postdoc E: Well , we don't have to go into the codes .
Grad C: I mean , it doesn't .
PhD D: No , I d
Postdoc E: We don't have to go into the codes .
Grad C: I mean , that {disfmarker} not for the topic of this meeting .
Postdoc E: But let me just {disfmarker} No . W the idea is just to have a separate green ribbon , you know , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and let 's say that this is a time bin . There 's a word here . This is the first word of an overlapping segment of any length , overlapping with any other , uh , word {disfmarker} uh , i segment of any length . And , um , then you can indicate that this here was perhaps a ch a backchannel , or you can say that it was , um , a usurping of the turn , or you can {disfmarker} you know , any {disfmarker} any number of categories . But the fact is , you have it time - tagged in a way that 's independent of the , uh , sp particular time bin that the word ends up in . If it 's a large unit or a small unit , or
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc E: we sh change the boundaries of the units , it 's still unique and {disfmarker} and , uh , fits with the format ,
PhD F: Right .
Postdoc E: flexible , all that .
PhD A: Um , it would be nice {disfmarker} um , eh , gr this is sort of r regarding {disfmarker} uh , uh it 's related but not directly germane to the topic of discussion , but , when it comes to annotations , um , you often find yourself in the situation where you have {pause} different annotations {pause} of the same , say , word sequence . OK ?
Postdoc E: Yeah .
PhD A: And sometimes the word sequences even differ slightly because they were edited s at one place but not the other .
Postdoc E: Yeah .
PhD A: So , once this data gets out there , some people might start annotating this for , I don't know , dialogue acts or , um , you know , topics or what the heck . You know , there 's a zillion things that people might annotate this for . And the only thing that is really sort of common among all the versi the various versions of this data is the word sequence , or approximately .
Postdoc E: Yep .
PhD F: Or the time .
PhD A: Or the times . But , see , if you 'd annotate dialogue acts , you don't necessarily want to {disfmarker} or topics {disfmarker} you don't really want to be dealing with time - marks .
PhD F: I guess .
PhD A: You 'd {disfmarker} it 's much more efficient for them to just see the word sequence , right ?
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: I mean , most people aren't as sophisticated as {disfmarker} as we are here with , you know , uh , time alignments and stuff . So {disfmarker} So the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the point is {disfmarker}
Grad C: Should {disfmarker} should we mention some names on the people who are n ?
PhD A: Right . So , um , the p my point is that {pause} you 're gonna end up with , uh , word sequences that are differently annotated . And {pause} you want some tool , uh , that is able to sort of merge these different annotations back into a single , uh , version . OK ? Um , and we had this problem very massively , uh , at SRI when we worked , uh , a while back on , {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} well , on dialogue acts as well as , uh , you know , um , what was it ? uh ,
PhD F: Well , all the Switchboard in it .
PhD A: utterance types . There 's , uh , automatic , uh , punctuation and stuff like that .
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD A: Because we had one set of {pause} annotations that were based on , uh , one version of the transcripts with a particular segmentation , and then we had another version that was based on , uh , a different s slightly edited version of the transcripts with a different segmentation . So , {vocalsound} we had these two different versions which were {disfmarker} you know , you could tell they were from the same source but they weren't identical . So it was extremely hard {vocalsound} to reliably merge these two back together to correlate the information from the different annotations .
Grad C: Yep . I {disfmarker} I don't see any way that file formats are gonna help us with that .
PhD A: No .
Grad C: It 's {disfmarker} it 's all a question of semantic .
PhD A: No . But once you have a file format , I can imagine writing {disfmarker} not personally , but someone writing a tool that is essentially an alignment tool , um , that mediates between various versions ,
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Yeah .
PhD A: and {disfmarker} uh , sort of like th uh , you know , you have this thing in UNIX where you have , uh , diff .
Grad C: Diff .
PhD F: W - diff or diff .
PhD A: There 's the , uh , diff that actually tries to reconcile different {disfmarker} two diffs f {comment} based on the same original .
PhD F: Yeah .
Postdoc E: Is it S - diff ?
Grad C: Yep .
Postdoc E: Mmm .
PhD A: Something like that , um , but operating on these lattices that are really what 's behind this {disfmarker} uh , this annotation format .
Grad C: Yep .
PhD A: So {disfmarker}
Grad C: There 's actually a diff library you can use {pause} to do things like that that {disfmarker} so you have different formats .
PhD F: You could definitely do that with the {disfmarker}
PhD A: So somewhere in the API you would like to have like a merge or some {disfmarker} some function that merges two {disfmarker} two versions .
Grad C: Yeah , I think it 's gonna be very hard . Any sort of structured anything when you try to merge is really , really hard
PhD A: Right .
Grad C: because you ha i The hard part isn't the file format . The hard part is specifying what you mean by " merge " .
PhD A: Is {disfmarker} Exactly .
Grad C: And that 's very difficult .
PhD F: But the one thing that would work here actually for i that is more reliable than the utterances is the {disfmarker} the speaker ons and offs . So if you have a good ,
Grad C: But this is exactly what I mean , is that {disfmarker} that the problem i
PhD F: um {disfmarker} Yeah . You just have to know wha what to tie it to .
Grad C: Yeah , exactly . The problem is saying " what are the semantics ,
PhD F: And {disfmarker}
Grad C: what do you mean by " merge " ? "
PhD F: Right , right .
PhD A: Right . So {disfmarker} so just to let you know what we {disfmarker} where we kluged it by , uh , doing {disfmarker} uh , by doing {disfmarker} Hhh .
Grad C: So .
PhD A: Both were based on words , so , bo we have two versions of the same words intersp you know , sprinkled with {disfmarker} with different tags for annotations .
Grad C: And then you did diff .
PhD A: And we did diff . Exactly !
Grad C: Yeah , that 's just what I thought .
PhD A: And that 's how {disfmarker}
Grad C: That 's just wh how I would have done it .
PhD A: Yeah . But , you know , it had lots of errors and things would end up in the wrong order , and so forth . Uh , so , um , if you had a more {disfmarker}
Grad C: Yep .
PhD A: Uh , it {disfmarker} it was a kluge because it was basically reducing everything to {disfmarker} uh , to {disfmarker} uh , uh , to textual alignment .
Grad C: A textual {disfmarker}
PhD A: Um , so {disfmarker}
PhD F: But , d isn't that something where whoever {disfmarker} if {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if the people who are making changes , say in the transcripts , cuz this all happened when the transcripts were different {disfmarker} ye um , if they tie it to something , like if they tied it to the acoustic segment {disfmarker} if they {disfmarker} You know what I mean ? Then {disfmarker} Or if they tied it to an acoustic segment and we had the time - marks , that would help .
Grad C: Yep .
PhD F: But the problem is exactly as Adam said , that you get , you know , y you don't have that information or it 's lost in the merge somehow ,
Postdoc E: Well , can I ask one question ?
PhD F: so {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: It {disfmarker} it seems to me that , um , we will have o an official version of the corpus , which will be only one {disfmarker} one version in terms of the words {disfmarker} where the words are concerned . We 'd still have the {disfmarker} the merging issue maybe if coding were done independently of the {disfmarker}
PhD A: And you 're gonna get that
Postdoc E: But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}
PhD A: because if the data gets out , people will do all kinds of things to it . And , uh , s you know , several years from now you might want to look into , um , the prosody of referring expressions . And someone at the university of who knows where has annotated the referring expressions . So you want to get that annotation and bring it back in line with your data .
Grad C: Right .
PhD A: OK ?
Grad C: But unfortunately they 've also hand - edited it .
Postdoc E: OK , then {disfmarker}
PhD F: But they 've also {disfmarker} Exactly . And so that 's exactly what we should {disfmarker} somehow when you distribute the data , say that {disfmarker} you know , that {disfmarker} have some way of knowing how to merge it back in and asking people to try to do that .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad C: Yep .
PhD A: Right .
Postdoc E: Well , then the {disfmarker}
PhD D: What 's {disfmarker} what 's wrong with {pause} doing times ? I {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: I agree . That was what I was wondering .
PhD F: Uh , yeah , time is the {disfmarker}
Grad C: Well ,
Postdoc E: Time is unique . You were saying that you didn't think we should {disfmarker}
PhD F: Time is passing !
PhD A: Time {disfmarker} time {disfmarker} times are ephemeral .
Postdoc E: Andreas was saying {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad C: what if they haven't notated with them , times ?
PhD F: Yeah . He {disfmarker} he 's a language modeling person , though .
PhD A: Um {disfmarker}
Grad C: So {disfmarker} so imagine {disfmarker} I think his {disfmarker} his example is a good one . Imagine that this person who developed the corpus of the referring expressions didn't include time .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Grad C: He included references to words .
Postdoc E: Ach !
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad C: He said that at this word is when {disfmarker} when it happened .
Postdoc E: Well , then {disfmarker}
PhD A: Or she .
Grad C: Or she .
Postdoc E: But then couldn't you just indirectly figure out the time {pause} tied to the word ?
PhD F: But still they {disfmarker} Exactly .
Grad C: Sure . But what if {disfmarker} what if they change the words ?
PhD F: Yeah .
Postdoc E: Not {disfmarker} Well , but you 'd have some anchoring point . He couldn't have changed all the words .
PhD D: But can they change the words without changing the time of the word ?
Grad C: Sure . But they could have changed it a little . The {disfmarker} the point is , that {disfmarker} that they may have annotated it off a word transcript that isn't the same as our word transcript , so how do you merge it back in ? I understand what you 're saying .
PhD A: Mmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad C: And I {disfmarker} I guess the answer is , um , it 's gonna be different every time . It 's j it 's just gonna be {disfmarker}
Postdoc E: Yeah .
PhD F: Yeah .
Grad C: I it 's exactly what I said before ,
PhD F: You only know the boundaries of the {disfmarker}
Grad C: which is that " what do you mean by " merge " ? " So in this case where you have the words and you don't have the times , well , what do you mean by " merge " ? If you tell me what you mean , I can write a program to do it .
PhD F: Right . Right . You can merge at the level of the representation that the other person preserved and that 's it .
Grad C: Right . And that 's about all you can do .
PhD F: And beyond that , all you know is {disfmarker} is relative ordering and sometimes even that is wrong .
Grad C: So {disfmarker} so in {disfmarker} so in this one you would have to do a best match between the word sequences ,
PhD F: So .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: extract the times f from the best match of theirs to yours , and use that .
PhD F: And then infer that their time - marks are somewhere in between .
Grad C: Right .
PhD F: Yeah , exactly .
Postdoc E: But it could be that they just {disfmarker} uh , I mean , it could be that they chunked {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they lost certain utterances and all that stuff ,
Grad C: Right , exactly . So it could get very , very ugly .
Postdoc E: or {disfmarker}
PhD F: Definitely .
Postdoc E: Yeah .
PhD F: Definitely . Alright .
Postdoc E: That 's interesting .
PhD F: Well , I guess , w I {disfmarker} I didn't want to keep people too long and Adam wanted t people {disfmarker} I 'll read the digits . If anyone else offers to , that 'd be great . And
PhD A: Ah , well .
Grad C: Yeah .
PhD F: if not , I guess {disfmarker}
PhD A: For th for the {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} for the benefit of science we 'll read the digits .
Grad C: More digits , the better . OK , this is
PhD F: Thanks {disfmarker} thanks a lot . It 's really helpful . I mean , Adam and Don {nonvocalsound} will sort of meet and I think that 's great . Very useful . Go next .
PhD D: Scratch that .
Postdoc E: O three
Grad C: Oh , right . | |
doc_137 | Project Manager: Excellent . So um I sent you the agenda , it was on the {disfmarker} in the project documents . I don't know if you got a chance to just have a look at it . Anyway , it's {disfmarker} the meeting's gonna follow more or less the same structure as last time , so we'll go round each of you in turn and you can give your presentations on what you've been up to . Um and at the end of that we need to discuss what you've come up with , so that we can make a decision on the key remote control concepts , so that's {disfmarker} we need to know about the components' properties , materials , the user interface and any trends that the Marketing Expert has been watching .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right .
Project Manager: Okay . Um , do you wanna start again ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: Let me {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Right s {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we've got forty minutes .
Industrial Designer: so I haven't made a PowerPoint presentation ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You haven't made a PowerPoint , okay .
Industrial Designer: yeah , I I thought I'll use the whiteboard instead .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um mm , {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Let's hope the pen holds out . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: okay , so basically I'll start off by {disfmarker} uh {vocalsound} I thought I'll use the whiteboard because we have so many different options and what we can do is that we can start um uh rubbing off the options that we do not require and putting in the options that uh are m or highlighting or underlining them or something like that .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so uh I'll start again with a brief introduction to {disfmarker} connect that anyway {disfmarker} brief introduction to the insides of a remote control
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and uh then we can probably uh discuss the various components . Yeah . Okay , so w what you see here is {disfmarker} so {vocalsound} this is the outside of the remote , right ? If you open it , you have a circuit board here , right ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and this is the chip that I was talking about last time . This basically sends information to a tr uh transistor here , which then uh sends the information to an L_E_D_ device here . If you flip the printed circuit board , and this is th the most important point here ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: uh {vocalsound} everything else is kind of {disfmarker} Okay , so if you flip the circuit board , this is what it looks like . So you see for example a particular button attaches to a particular place on the P_C_B_ and uh
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: on pressing this button I {disfmarker} a circuit completes , the information goes to the chip , which is somewhere here and the chip that tra then translates the code into an infra infrared radiation , which goes goes out through there . {vocalsound} So uh the important point that I read over the website was uh that the configurations of these printed circuit circuit boards uh are quite cheap to make , you can ge get them printed as you want to ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so w we can have a configuration um irrespective of the cost , the way we want to have . Right ? So that's the important point here ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so these are the different options that we have . Okay . So the batteries , I'll start with the battery , right ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So they can be simple which is like uh the normal batteries in uh our {disfmarker} uh the cells , yeah ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh thes these are the kind {disfmarker} different kind of batteries that the company makes , right ? So . And dynamos . Um {vocalsound}
Marketing: Does that mean like a wind-up one ?
Industrial Designer: yeah , yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} A wind-up remote .
Industrial Designer: So uh I don't know if {disfmarker} even if you want to consider this ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but these are the different things that the company makes , so th they'll they'll {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: since uh they'll come internally from the company , they'll be eas uh cheaper , uh all these options .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So {vocalsound} the third one is uh the kinetic energy ones .
Marketing: You could make the hand dynamo into an exercise bike , and then people could exercise whilst watching T_V_ .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: And charging their remote ,
Marketing: Yeah , and stop worrying about the whole R_S_I_ from the remote thing , 'cause that's just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah , it's a good option .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} So what was what was this k ka
Industrial Designer: The the kinetic energy one is uh that e uh uh they are usually modern watches , since our hand keeps moving , it keeps the watch ticking .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Uh yeah .
Industrial Designer: But I dunno i if it is a good idea for a remote control , because it'll just lie there for a long while sometimes .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . For a remote , 'cause you {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But as soon as you pick it up it moves and then again it uh re recharges or something .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And the fourth option is the solar cells , which are also {vocalsound} made by the company .
Marketing: Yay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Environment friendly . Okay {vocalsound} um so I'll list things and then we can come back and discuss what what we think from uh everybody's perspective .
Project Manager: Yeah {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: There are different cases that can be provided . They can be {disfmarker} basically the shape of the cases , they can be flat , they can be curved with uh one-sided curved and one side flat ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and they can be curved with {disfmarker} on both the sides .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} These are the three options , right ? Um {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um you mean this would be like the the overall shape of the remote control , yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , would it be flat on both the sides , would be curved from one side , or whatever {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: mm-hmm . Yeah , mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: uh there were different kind of supplements available , um like it can be in plastic , rubber , wood , or titanium , right ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay .
Industrial Designer: Wo wo wood .
Marketing: Did you say wool ?
Project Manager: Wood , wood .
Marketing: Wood . Oh right .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} Not wool . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} A fluffy remote . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , you'll understand why when we get to my presenta {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: Oh really ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Huh .
Industrial Designer: so uh we can use even um {vocalsound} a certain titanium is also used uh in the company to make uh {vocalsound} uh some space design equipment , so it's kind of um uh it'll be probably nicer to use , because it relates to the overall image of the company , but uh it cannot be used on a double curved surface . If we choose this , we cannot use titanium . For for these two we can use titanium , wood , rubber , or plastic .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Uh okay , the interface options now . So {vocalsound} we can have push-buttons , like most remotes do and our company is an expert in making push-buttons .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Ooh . Uh we can have scroll wheels like the ones on um uh mouse pointers uh uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Sony .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Sony Ericsson mobile phones has it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah , something like that .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So , and they have {disfmarker} they can even have an an integrated uh push-button inside the scrolling thing .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: The scroll plus push . So this is something that has been recently developed by the company , um {vocalsound} in the last decade , so not too recent . And L_C_D_s , we can have L_C_D_s . So these two are recent and and this is q quite old .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} The various electronic options are um uh {vocalsound} so th this concerns firs first of all the the chips I I showed you at uh {disfmarker} so there's there's a chip behind this one , right ? The P_C_B_ is uh inexpensive , so we can put put in uh whatever we want , but the various integrated circuit options are , we have either a simple one
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: or a regular or advanced . And uh the price goes up as we go down , obviously .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um {vocalsound} okay , so the good thing about uh wh wh why why we would want to use advanced u why we might want to use advanced is that L_C_D_s can only come with the advanced chip .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um the {disfmarker} we need regular or advanced for uh scroll wheels . Right ? Um {vocalsound} and the chip basically includes the infra infrared sender .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Uh besides this in electr under electronics uh also the company has started making a sample sender , which is {vocalsound} {disfmarker} did not explained what i what it was , but I'm guessing that uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} so they have a sample sender and a sample speaker . So I'm guessing that uh the sample speaker is probably something like um uh you know , as soon as you press a button , it it mm uh give gives you feedback , one five or whatever . Yeah , on .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um {vocalsound} and uh I dunno whether sample sender sender has to do something with voice recognition or not , but anyway .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So , these are the different options that we have . Okay , so {vocalsound} th that's that's basically {disfmarker} now now uh I think that uh we can integrate um {vocalsound} uh you know , uh the user interface uh and uh the marketing things in that , keep uh taking out things from this and uh underlining things that are important , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Excellent . Do you wanna stay somewhere near the board , so that if we need to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah , sure . Sure . Yeah .
Project Manager: you can sit down , but just {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we might need you to leap up .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: What are you , PowerPoint , or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um I have some PowerPoint , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Oh . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do you think these pens can give you cancer of the hand ?
User Interface: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Some sort of radiation ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No it's got its little camera in there , {vocalsound} plug it in {gap} .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it should should do it . Yeah .
Marketing: 'S a
Project Manager: Right , interface concept .
User Interface: Okay . Um to be honest actually , I mentioned some some of the things which which could fit on the on the {disfmarker} this talk um this time , I m I mentioned them already in the previous talk .
Project Manager: That's fine .
User Interface: So um yeah , this time um I might not have them on the slides but I {vocalsound} I can just mention them aw again .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Okay . So um I thought um I would also include the definition of user interface um so it's the aspects of a of of a computer system or programme which can be seen uh by the user um and and which {disfmarker} uh the mechanisms that the user uses to control its operation and input data . So this would p includes things like shape and size and buttons and um voice recognition as well , and colour , and so on .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Um um the method I {vocalsound} employed this time was {vocalsound} a again having a look to related products and mainly on the internet and then {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} analyse them uh from the point of view of user fen friendliness and {vocalsound} also um {vocalsound} whether their appearance was was pleasant . Um {vocalsound} and then um {vocalsound} this uh this um {vocalsound} this can help us to decide which features we want to incorporate in our product .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So some findings um {vocalsound} um . So in in the case of many user interfaces , they're just so full of buttons that it's actually uh hard to find the ones you you really um want to use and um and it's just confusing , it takes y know time to learn . Um {vocalsound} okay , and I thought I would just quickly show some of them that I found . Okay , some of them are here .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um {vocalsound} well the picture is not very clear , but as you can see , there are actu oi , oh oh oh , {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: sorry for that . 'S go back .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's nice one .
User Interface: Ah , no , please . Okay , so yeah , they're quite big and have many many buttons . Actually {vocalsound} of the {disfmarker} of all these I personally p prefer this one , because it's it's the smallest and and with with least {disfmarker} uh with the smallest number of buttons as well . And I would say even the appearance of some of them is kind of not so nice .
Marketing: Ugly .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um okay . So let's carry on with this . Um {disfmarker} So uh um o other findings {disfmarker} um some new things um used , uh some of them were mentioned already by our Technical um Designer uh . {vocalsound} Our own company has developed a new in user interface {disfmarker} uh wait , no this is not the one . Okay , there is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we can uh include voice recognition and um it allows {disfmarker} i it's possible to record eighty different voice samples on it .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Uh so uh this uh this one was already mentioned uh the L_C_ display .
Project Manager: It's {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: Um s another new development is a scroll button , which was also th also already mentioned . And uh our own manufacturing division ha has uh designed {vocalsound} a new um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh programmable speech uh {vocalsound} mm sorry uh speaker unit I guess it's {disfmarker} it should be .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Um and this means that um once uh uh it it it comes together with a voice recognition , but it's {disfmarker} once once the mm {vocalsound} um gadget uh recognises uh the voice of the speaker , there can be a um pre-programmed answer , for example , you can pick up the remote control and say something to it like hello and it says some hello and your name or whatever .
Project Manager: Uh-huh , hi {vocalsound} yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: So {vocalsound} I mean this is also one of the n dev new developments which we might consider if we wanted to include .
Industrial Designer: Uh sorry , uh can you go back for a second ? Um {vocalsound} uh are you sure wha what this means , a spinning wheel with the L_C_ display ? Uh {vocalsound} oh yeah are th
Project Manager: It's like the {disfmarker} like you said , no ? The scroll scroll wheel .
Marketing: Yeah , you can't {disfmarker}
User Interface: No no , the scroll button is a different thing . I I have a picture if you {vocalsound} {disfmarker} just a moment , I'll {vocalsound} I'll show you . I wasn't completely sure myself , but I think it's just like um {vocalsound} it's it's a wheel , it's like not separate buttons .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh okay , the iPod thing , yeah .
User Interface: Look , this one here .
Marketing: Oh , it's like the iPod .
User Interface: But I'm I'm not really sure whether whether you can really turn it round ,
Marketing: G yeah , no , you can .
User Interface: it's like you press this or this or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh it's the iPod uh kind of uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's like it's like where you {disfmarker} you know how you have your your mouse , and y you go round and i it's kind of like that and you spin round
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: Alright , right . Okay , okay .
Marketing: and it {disfmarker} yeah . It is {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So instead of going down you just spin {disfmarker} yeah , yeah .
Marketing: You just go round
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and it is a bit weird at first , but it's actually very like fast .
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh .
Marketing: I like the the wheels that click on the side you you get 'em much slower ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: so it's quite good if you like searching quite a lot of stuff .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: Do you know , if you're lookin if you're th scrolling through the A_ to Z_ of your music and you're looking for something at T_ , then it's a lot faster than the wheel ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: but you've got a lot less control over it .
Industrial Designer: Right . So maybe I should include that here as well ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: L_C_D_s um plus spinning .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay , and the personal preferences are pretty much the same as as as last time .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: It {vocalsound} it has to be small , simple . Okay , we decided to include voice recognition , so to have the standard uh major buttons like on , off , um ch the channels and and then um volume and then the rest would be a menu on the screen . Um and I I also thought uh {vocalsound} if we want to keep it small and nice um and actually I I quite like the idea of a scroll a scrolling button , I thought it could be for for voice like , I dunno , it mm like on a um i like it used to be on Walkmans or something . There is {vocalsound} uh I think there is no reason why we couldn't use something like this for for the remote control .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So yeah , that's uh that's it .
Project Manager: Excellent . Okay , straight to trends , and then we can discuss it all at once .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: Okay , I've put the copy of the presentation in um the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The project documents .
Marketing: yeah .
Project Manager: Excellent . If you two could both do that as well , in case we need to refer to it .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Cool .
Project Manager: Here it comes . Okay .
Marketing: Fabulous . Okay , cool . Um so what I did was to search the internet to come up with market trends and you know what users are gonna be wanting in the the near future .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Okay . Right . Now , the first aspect is apparently twice as important as the second aspect , which is twice as important as the third a aspect . So , I mean the the easy to use thing is fairly low down on the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: which I think given the target group is what you would expect , really .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Um , you know , people want something new , something technologically innovative and different , so the whole idea with the L_C_D_s and the spinning and the colours and the voice recognition is quite like , quite the thing to go for .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: And um , yeah it wants to look fancy , fancy look and feel .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So um {vocalsound} uh maybe uh as you're discussing things , is it okay if we just uh keep highlighting things here ?
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah , sure . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right . So mm uh so it {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's over on the interface ,
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} yeah ,
Project Manager: if if you could put {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so probably voice recognition is is kind of important , right ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um and an
Project Manager: And maybe the L_C_D_ and spinning {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: yeah . Okay , I I have a point about L_C_D_ ,
Project Manager: so that means we need an advanced thing .
Industrial Designer: I dunno if it is the right point to take it up . W uh L_C_D_s are basically for feedback , right , to the user who's pressing buttons ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: and the feedback can come through television itself , so do we need an L_C_D_ on the remote ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Depends how fast your television runs , really , don't don't you think ? I mean we've got one of those um Telewest boxes
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: and you put the number in the remote and then you wait and then it goes to the T_V_ and then you wait , and then it comes , so i it actually takes quite a long time . And if you get the number in wrong , then it's a bit of a pain ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Right . {gap}
Marketing: so I think , you know , a screen on the remote would probably cut down your time on that . But like remotes do tend to get f thrown about a bit .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: It it is also quite nice though to to have something here so you don't interrupt the picture on the screen ,
Marketing: You know ? Yeah .
Project Manager: so if you're watching something {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That's true , yeah , that's also {disfmarker}
Marketing: And i it would be like {disfmarker} I mean if you could make it integrate with the T_V_ then it could come up with new information about what's on , and you could just see that on the remote rather than {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . Rather than having to interrupt your viewing pleasure .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: But um I think maybe a way to do it would be a similar way to how you have your mobile phone , you know , like you have the slidey ones and you have the flippy ones and then the screen's protected so it doesn't actually get scratched .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So you can have like what looks like a normal remote control , you know or like a minimalist remote control .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So you got your buttons one to nine , your on and off and your volume on that
Industrial Designer: Mm right .
Marketing: and then if you want to mess about with it , you flip it open and ,
Project Manager: And then you can flip it open .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: yeah .
Industrial Designer: So now we seem to have a consensus that L_C_D_s are definitely the way to go because of style and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , I think so .
Marketing: Yeah , so that kind of decides your whole chip thing .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: You you agree ? Maarika , yeah ?
User Interface: Yep , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Right .
Industrial Designer: So L_C_D_s , yeah , definitely .
Marketing: Okay ?
Industrial Designer: Go on .
Marketing: Cool . Okay , apparently , fruit and vegetables will be providing inspiration .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sorry , I discovered clip art . {vocalsound} Um so these will be an important feature for clothes , shoes and furniture . So I mean , I'm taking this to mean , you know , curviness . Do you know ? 'Cause you don't tend to get flat vegetables . You know ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and possibly even uneven ,
Marketing: Yeah , bit of asymmetry and stuff .
Project Manager: like not not symmet yeah .
Marketing: But that would be a good way to to get in the whole um R_S_I_ issue in there ,
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: because {disfmarker} I mean if you think most people use the remote control with their right hand ha right hands
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: so you wanna {disfmarker} you curve it so that it's suitable for use with the right hand .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Um yeah
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: , I'm not quite sure about the relevance of material will be spongy . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Something a bit squishy and {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , we we have
Marketing: but I mean y you have to {disfmarker}
User Interface: So it could be like a rubbery {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: we have rubber ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} yeah , uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: but there is a problem that I forgot to discuss with the {disfmarker} um with using {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well I suppose you wouldn't get a remote uh {disfmarker} an electric shock off your remote control if it was made of rubber . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , and it'd help if you drop it , it protects it as well .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: To some degree .
Industrial Designer: So if if we use uh latex cases , they won't allow us to use solar cells , as an energy source that is the constraint ,
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: so um we could use {vocalsound} titanium , wood or plastic uh or uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Or if we want to use the the latex , then we have to go with one of the other um power things .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , w energy source .
Marketing: If it's made of rubber you could get the kinetic energy fairly easily there ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} From {vocalsound} from bouncing it .
Marketing: you could just {vocalsound} bounce it up and down {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , tap it on the desk , yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You can have it as like a little ball to bounce , that flips open . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} Um so yeah , um okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm . So probably double curved surface is the way to go , yeah , {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Mm yeah .
Industrial Designer: Or or curved at one end and flat on the top , because I I'm not sure if it is flat on both both the sides , then ho how much easy would it be to reach for buttons , etcetera . Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: You have to have a certain element of flatness , I think .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: It it depends on the whole ergonomics of it , you know , it's like how you put your hands so y it's the least movement basically .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , singe single side curved or double side curved does not say too much , does it ?
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: It uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: No , I d I don't think it makes a lot of difference . I I have one of those s slidey phones and I mean the back is essentially straight ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: but it's curvy , so .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh I think uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , 'cause the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Besides , you have four sides to a thing , so I mean does curved one side mean one side is straight
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: and , you know curved two sides means the whole thing is just a big curvy p thing ?
Industrial Designer: Right . Di now did it say anywhere in your research material about this sliding stuff uh
Project Manager: Dunno .
Industrial Designer: because um {vocalsound} according to the information that I have , I think uh the onl only options that we have with the case is {disfmarker} are these three . Uh eith either we have uh a flat surfaced uh case or a curved surfaced case .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It does not say anything about uh whether technically , you know , this this stuff is available at all .
Project Manager: Nothing to {vocalsound} open them .
Marketing: Yeah . Uh it's it's more about the protecting the L_C_D_ , which I think is where it came from .
Industrial Designer: Right , yeah , yeah .
Marketing: But no , my research didn't tell me anything , which is why we have all the pictures ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: 'cause I had nothing better to do with my time .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right . Okay .
Marketing: Okay , cool .
Project Manager: Anything else ? What've we got ?
Marketing: Uh combine style with a level of functionality , um beauty and practicality and a thing of beauty and p function .
Industrial Designer: Cool , thanks .
Project Manager: Okay , so .
Marketing: Okay ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Thanks
Project Manager: Looking at what we've got , we we want an L_C_D_ display with a spinning wheel .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Let's let's try to r rub off things and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , rub off some of those .
Industrial Designer: yeah , so um {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: hand dynamos are definitely out , right ? {vocalsound} You you got a wind {gap} dynamo , yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah ,
User Interface: Yeah uh-hum yeah .
Project Manager: it's not {disfmarker} that's not streamlined and sexy , {vocalsound} having a having a wind up .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Um {vocalsound} kinetic energy does seem to have some kind of uh uh appeal ,
Project Manager: I think tha
Industrial Designer: but uh {vocalsound} it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's about the practicality of it really , isn't it ? You know ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . As against a watch , which constantly keeps moving ,
Marketing: I mean if {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: this this thing will have to be tapped every time , which which might be very frustrating for the user .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Depends how much how much movement it really needs .
Industrial Designer: Kinetic energy it needs {disfmarker} I don't have too much technical information on that ,
Project Manager: Pr presumably if they're suggesting it , then we could use it .
Industrial Designer: yeah , right . Okay , let's keep it option uh keep an option ,
Project Manager: I'd I'd keep it on .
Industrial Designer: yeah . Um {vocalsound} the flat co completely flat case is definitely out , right ? It has to be at least curved from one side , yeah .
Project Manager: We don't want that
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah
Project Manager: it's no {disfmarker} it's not not vegetable .
User Interface: it's {disfmarker} yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um {vocalsound} okay , we still have all all the options . Wood , do you think wood will be a good idea ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: N wood is {disfmarker} I can't n {vocalsound} how do you uh I mean you can't keep it really small uh
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: you can't make it like thin and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: I can't imagine a m wooden remote control .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: The wood thing . Because you need to you n you need to put all the technology in , so I mean if the case {disfmarker} you add the case and it it becomes a bit bulky
Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound} if if it is really thin if it is really thin it it's likely to break ,
User Interface: wi mm-mm yeah .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: it's it's much more uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , and given that we're we're looking at more spongy material preferences , I ha would think maybe rubber or plastic is more {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: U yeah wood is not really {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: Well it's not very cleanable either ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's true .
Marketing: do you know .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: It's it's not {vocalsound} a practical {disfmarker} I mean it's it's alright for a table , but for a remote control , you know .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: And splinters and stuff and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: okay {vocalsound} wood is out .
Marketing: It just m doesn't make any sense , I think is the thing with wood .
Industrial Designer: Right .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah , in the case of remote control not really .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay , now for the really interesting stuff , the interface .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right , so uh the the push-buttons is is our expertise uh in the industry ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but uh it seems to be {vocalsound} out of trend , you know , nobody seems to be {disfmarker}
Marketing: You have to have some push-buttons , don't you ?
User Interface: Yeah , but you {disfmarker} um I think for for the channel numb uh channel numbers you still need them , wouldn't you ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm right .
Marketing: G yeah , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , so for channel numbers but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh , if if we have L_C_D_ displays , that opens up a whole world , you know , if you have an L_C_D_ display , then mm you can select almost everything on the L_C_D_ display .
User Interface: But I th yeah but {vocalsound} I think the L_C_D_ display is kind of {disfmarker} yeah , it's faster
Project Manager: Just for fast {disfmarker}
User Interface: with a m yeah and w if we dis and when we s um {vocalsound} discussed that we might like this flipping open thing , then I mean y you can use it as a normal remote control ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: but if you do want to use L_C_D_ , then you flip it open ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but it's it it's more time-consuming .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: I think this is going back to the the graph at the beginning that I made , where , you know , the buttons that people use all the time , you want buttons for them and everything else menu-driven .
Industrial Designer: Mm right .
Project Manager: And it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: yeah {vocalsound} L_ {disfmarker} L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: So uh in in the buttons we have for the channels also we have options . Do you do we enumerate everything from zero to nine ? Or do we have just uh channel plus , channel minus , just to just to scroll ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} No , no , I mean mm we we definitely need the the numbers ,
Industrial Designer: The numbers .
User Interface: because it's {disfmarker} uh otherwise people don't want to flip through all the channels . Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Do we need them on as buttons or do we need them as L_C_D_ ?
Industrial Designer: Or {vocalsound} on the L_C_D_ we can , you know {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: G yeah ,
User Interface: Yeah , I would say buttons ,
Marketing: I would think buttons , yeah .
Project Manager: Buttons .
User Interface: because it's {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: It's it's the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So mm {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think the thing is , so if someone just wants to turn on their T_V_ and put on a channel , then it should be easier to use than any other remote ,
User Interface: I
Project Manager: Mm . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: and then if someone wants to , you know , change the contrast on their T_V_ and {disfmarker} they should be able to do that and it should be accessible ,
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: but , you know , I mean most of the time {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: I mean there's a limit to how much the biggest techno geek can spend fiddling with the T_V_ , I think is the the the issue there .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay , so buttons definitely in but {disfmarker} oh shall we uh try to draw a prec um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think that's what {vocalsound} you guys are gonna do next ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh okay .
Project Manager: so if we put down the key um {vocalsound} things that we want .
Industrial Designer: Okay , okay , so the components .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right , so uh what about the the scrolling uh ?
User Interface: Yeah but n I I'm not completely um completely clear uh I {vocalsound} yeah , about the spinning wheel . So I think it {vocalsound} it doesn't make sense to have both like a scrolling and spinning thing ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} E either or {disfmarker}
User Interface: it's uh {disfmarker} you can al include everything in the spinning if you
Marketing: G yeah .
Project Manager: Just spinning and not scrolling , I would say .
User Interface: {disfmarker} yeah , yeah ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} I would say the s the s the spinning goes at a high speed to th to the scrolling wheel ,
User Interface: in that case .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: so you have to decide whether {disfmarker} you you know , you want to be going so fast or not . But I mean the the thing with this whole {disfmarker} if y you're planning on making it out of rubber , on the basis that it's spongy , then I'm not sure how well a scrolling wheel would work .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But if you've got a {disfmarker} if if you've got a flipped thing , effectively it's something that's curved on one side and flat on the other side , but you folded it in half .
User Interface: Ah , but I mean you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , but y your spinning wheel tends to go to one side .
Project Manager: Th {vocalsound} that would be on one side , uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: I'm not sure it'll be a good idea to construct the whole thing out of rubber . {vocalsound} Uh i it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No , I think it's just the casing rubber on the outside .
User Interface: Yeah , I um I think so too , I mean the case would be {disfmarker}
Marketing: You want an outside of rubber
User Interface: yeah the case would be rubber and the the buttons ,
Marketing: and then open it up and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Or or at the corners , edges , just the edges covered by rubber or something like that .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: rubber buttons , but then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Everything else in plastic or even titanium if we want to use it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Or maybe like interchangeable cases .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: 'Cause I know like we're going back to iPods again n the whole spinning wheel , but I have like a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , obviously my iPod's not made of rubber , but then I have a little rubber case that goes over the top of it
Industrial Designer: Right , right .
Marketing: and I can change the colour , theoretically , to match my outfit .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: okay , so so that gives us a more trendy look as well . Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , I think the spinning wheel is definitely very now .
Industrial Designer: Right . Yeah , and uh we're going more for the trends than for the usability anyway , right ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's right ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: that's what they're after .
Industrial Designer: So I'll rub that out . {vocalsound} And uh colours can be provided with the case rather than {disfmarker} Um but we still need to te think about the colour of our remote as such , you know , just keep it black , or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah I think we {disfmarker} um it was a a requirement that we use our um th the colours of our company , so would it be like yellow , grey and black or something , or {disfmarker}
Marketing: That doesn't fit in with the whole vegetable theme though .
Project Manager: I guess .
User Interface: Yeah , does {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Bananas . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . Banana's yellow , {vocalsound} yeah , definitely .
Marketing: Yeah , but I mean do you think we could incorporate the colours of the company into the buttons and then make the colour of the main remote {vocalsound} the colour like vegetable colours , do you know ? So you could have like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: I mean I suppose vegetable colours would be orange and green and some reds and um maybe purple
Project Manager: Green . Yeah .
Marketing: and that and then you'd pick the buttons in company colours to to match with it .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay . Um {vocalsound} okay , if you g go over to uh the integrated circuits . Uh since we're having L_C_D_s there there's no way that we're will be able to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We need the advanced {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: um what we do need to consider , however , is that the price is going up for the ever every such thing that we are considering , but since L_C_D_s seems to be uh a definite yes ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so {vocalsound} it seems to be one area where we would want to spend .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So I'll rub off the other two .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So are we discounting solar energy because rubber's gonna be used in there somewhere or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: That was the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh is {disfmarker} oh the constraint was uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} If {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We can't have solar panels with rubber , so .
Industrial Designer: yeah .
Marketing: solar panels with the rubber .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , okay , so we lose that I think .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Shall we go for {disfmarker} if we're going for rubber , we think uh on {disfmarker} as our case , and then {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} And the buttons as well , I think . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I think uh {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We've got five more minutes .
Industrial Designer: we'll have uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} uh using the simple battery will be a safer option as compared to the kinetic energy one , I mean , a although it does seem uh interesting .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: But it does not hold any advantages as such for a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: It's just a gimmick .
Project Manager: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: yeah .
Project Manager: mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Uh okay , so r we understand this better now that uh the the speaker is for the feedback , right ? It it says uh the things that you type in or something like that , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Yeah . I think if we can if we can include them at not too much extra cost , then I'd put them in ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ye yeah , {vocalsound} we we don't have too much information about it , um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but if it's {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , but it it {disfmarker} I think it should be quite cheap because it's from our own company , yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's from the company , so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , okay , so so th this is in as well then , the sample speaker .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: Okay . And the case is curved on one side , but then flat flat , so it's flipped into each other .
Industrial Designer: Flat on the top . Yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Can I pull the {vocalsound} thing out the back of your computer ?
Marketing: Yeah , sure j
Project Manager: Just so we can {disfmarker}
Marketing: Sorry , do you want me to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Nothing , it's right , I'm just {disfmarker} There we go .
Marketing: What does um I_C_S_ mean ?
Industrial Designer: I_C_s ? Uh integrated circuits .
Marketing: Okay , cool . So it's advanced integrated circuits ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh oh now I've gone too far .
Industrial Designer: Uh um we we're definitely going in for voice recognition as well as L_C_D_s , mm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . We're on our way . Okay . {vocalsound} So we've basically worked out that we're going with a simple battery , the advanced chip
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: and a curved on one side case which is folded in on itself , um made out of rubber
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: and the buttons are also rubber . We're having push-buttons on the outside and then on the inside an L_C_D_ with spinning wheel , and we're incorporating voice recognition . That's our overall concept ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and it's gonna look sort of vegetable ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} and be in bright vegetable colours .
User Interface: Uh-huh . So {vocalsound} w w would with have the spinning wheel inside with the L_C_D_ , or would it be on the outer {disfmarker}
Marketing: Imagine it would be inside .
Project Manager: I think it's on the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: So um actually that could like really cut down your thing ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: so you've got your outside , which is like minimalist , and then you open it up and you've got a screen and a spinning wheel , which you can incorporate buttons into .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Yeah , okay .
Marketing: Um so you've still not got like a lot of stuff in the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-mm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: You've maybe got , you know {disfmarker} {vocalsound} like if you're modelling on iPod you've got five buttons and a wheel ,
Project Manager: On the {disfmarker} Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and four of the buttons are in the wheel , and the other one's the little bit inside the wheel ,
Project Manager: In the centre ,
Marketing: yeah .
Project Manager: yeah , sure .
User Interface: Mm yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , so now we've got thirty minutes before our next meeting . In the meantime , the Industrial Designer over here is gonna work on the look and feel design ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: which I'll presume he'll work out what that means . Um the User Interface Designer will work on the user interface design and the Marketing Expert is going to work on product evaluation . And as well as that , the two designers are going to work together on our prototype following those instructions that we've just come up with using modelling clay and you will get extra instructions from your personal coach .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Cool .
Project Manager: Is that all okay ? And anyone who hasn't put their their presentation in the project documents folder , it would be good just so {disfmarker} in case we have to refer to it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , okay .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Cool , I'm gonna go and sit on my own .
Project Manager: Y ah nobody wants to talk to you .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I know , I'm hated .
Project Manager: Unplug yourself .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Hmm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I've got a bit tangled up in all this {vocalsound}
User Interface: So but {disfmarker} shall I move away first or shall I stay here with {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I dunno , maybe I would car
User Interface: we need to {disfmarker} | |
doc_138 | User Interface: .. .
Project Manager: Okay . So , this is uh first meeting of this design project . Um and I um like to show you the agenda for the meeting , I don't know if it was sent round to all of you .
User Interface: Mm , yeah .
Project Manager: Maybe not . Anyway ,
User Interface: I didn't receive it yet {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: this is the the plan for today's meeting is um firstly just to introduce the project briefly , um although I'm sure you've actually got some of the information already . Then the main purpose is to {disfmarker} so that we get to know each other a little bit more .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um then we want to practice using some of the tools that we'll be using during the the course of the design project and the meetings , um specifically the whiteboard over there . Um then we need to go through the specifics of our project plan um and discuss {disfmarker} come up with some preliminary ideas about it . And then that's it . So we've got twenty five minutes to do that , that's until eleven twenty five .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} so sh
Project Manager: S so any any questions ?
Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound} {gap} .
Project Manager: Is i {gap} not at this point .
User Interface: Not at this point .
Project Manager: So this is our project . What we're aiming to do is to create a new remote control for a television . Um we want it to be something original , something trendy and also something user friendly , so it has to be quite intuitive that people are able to use this product . The method that we're going to use to complete the project , that has three components as such . There's the functional design of the the remote control . We're going {disfmarker} the way we'll do that I think is to to work individually initially and then come together for meetings to to work on that . Um similarly with the conceptual design , we'll start off by working individually with our own expertise on our own laptops and then we'll bring what we've done together . Um and then the detailed design will come after that . We'll pull it all together .
Industrial Designer: I'm a bit confused about uh what's the difference between the functional design and conceptual design ? Uh i is it just uh more detail , uh as I understand it ?
Project Manager: I think it {disfmarker} th w we're talking the the functional design is more your um area of things where you'll be {disfmarker} we want to look at what functions we need in the remote control
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: and what what specific things it it has to do
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: but the conceptual design is um perhaps bigger than that and includes the {disfmarker} how people are going to use it and and that kind of thing .
Industrial Designer: How how it will be done . So whe where do we identify the components of our uh product ? Uh I think it's it's in the conceptual design phase that we identify the {disfmarker} it's in the conceptual design phase that we identify the components of our product ?
Project Manager: Um I think we'll we'll start that initially with the functional design already but then
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: {disfmarker} yeah . Okay , so that's just a brief overview of the p the the project itself . Um what I'd like us to do now is simultaneously introduce ourselves and start using some of the tools that we're using for {vocalsound} for the project , specifically the whiteboard .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: So each person in turn , I'd like us to go up to the whiteboard , the pen's just underneath it there and draw your favourite animal and then tell everyone what the f your favourite characteristics of that animal are and while you're doing that tell us your name , what your role is and perhaps how your animal relates to the role that you're taking in this project . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Why are you looking at me ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Would you like to go first ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Do I have a choice ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay . Ooh ooh , things falling everywhere .
Project Manager: Oh , yeah ,
Marketing: Right , okay .
Project Manager: p put them in pockets .
Marketing: Cool . Okay .
Project Manager: You don't have to hurry , we've got plenty of time .
Marketing: So , my name's Cat and I'm really not very good at this whole drawing malarkey
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: so um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's got no eyes .
Marketing: Oh , good point . Ah , the eyes always ruin it . Right . Okay , what do {gap} it's eyes like ? Okay , cool . Um this is a rabbit . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I thought it might be a cat . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah well origi uh at first I thought it was going to be cat . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , I don't think it's furry enough , so we'll make it a fluffy rabbit .
User Interface: Yeah now I now I understand now , yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah I can see by the ears .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay , right , it's a fluffy rabbit , blue .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Rabbits don't come in blue but you know .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um okay and I like it because it's small {vocalsound} and it's fluffy .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And one day you'll be able to getical genetically modify them and they will come in pink .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Ah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay ?
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Excellent , and what's your what's your role within the team ?
Marketing: I am the um {disfmarker} I need my notebook , mm ooh {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: top banana . Thank you . Okay , cool , I am the Marketing Expert {vocalsound} um so like I'm gonna be doing the {disfmarker} apparently according to the little guy in the computer that knows everything {disfmarker} the user g requirements specification of the functional design , um trend watching in the conceptual design and product evad-valuation in the detailed design {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Okay .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: um so yeah .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Project Manager: And more about yourself , you're from ?
Marketing: Um I'm from Leicester ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: um second year . Um what else do you want to know ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I like sports {vocalsound} um yeah , aerobics , kickboxing , spinning
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: um {vocalsound} and uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But not with rabbits . {vocalsound}
Marketing: not with rabbits , no no .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: And vets , I like vets as well .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} And yeah um and I like cocktails , especially pink ones .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Cool .
Marketing: Okay ? Cool . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Excellent , to match the rabbit . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay . Um so my name is Maarika . Where's the pen ? Okay .
Project Manager: There's a {disfmarker} an {disfmarker} if you have not enough room there's an eraser there and you can rub it off .
User Interface: Yeah , well , or I can make it smaller . {vocalsound} Uh so um um I'm the Interface Designer in this project and my favourite animal , I m I mean I'm not so sure because I'm not so so very um {vocalsound} familiar with all kinds of animals , but I do like dogs .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh , sorry , maybe I should have {disfmarker} shouldn't have said it beforehand but
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: mm {vocalsound} hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um well , there are different kinds of dogs , but okay um .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's not bad at all .
Project Manager: Ah it looks like a dog .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yep .
Marketing: Is a bit more impressive than my rabbit .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: I think it needs four legs if it's gonna walk though .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , maybe it has some colourful patches , yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} the other legs are on the other side .
User Interface: Um yeah and I do like dogs because they are good friends to people and they are loyal . Mm , well that's compared to some other animals like cats . Um they're really much more fun because they are not so independent .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um yeah maybe maybe the fact that they protect their home as well , yeah . Um what it has to do with with my role in the project is hard to say .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh I hope to be loyal to the project
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and not to n not to um let people doing similar projects know the details of our project or something , {vocalsound} yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And where where are you from ?
User Interface: I'm from Estonia
Project Manager: Estonia .
User Interface: uh , yep . Um so is there anything else you'd like to know ? Oh , right , my roles ,
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
User Interface: um so um in the different um {vocalsound} stages of the design , so at first I will be responsible for um for {vocalsound} yeah , designing the technical functions of the um {vocalsound} um of the remote control uh then in the in the conceptual design stage I need to um come up with uh interface concept and then in the last um stage I will be responsible for the int infa for the user interface design .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay , that's it . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Thank you . Okay {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} I'll do some {disfmarker} I'll rub the features
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and let the drawing stay . {vocalsound} 'Kay um my name is Gaurav . Um {vocalsound} my favourite animal {disfmarker} one of my favourite animals is a cow . I've got no idea how to draw a cow .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Good luck .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh this is going to be {disfmarker}
Marketing: They're not just like a big round body and then some really skinny legs
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that'll do .
Marketing: and then just some horns .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so let let me draw the body first .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Big , round body , really skinny legs {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and they've got a long tail
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and a long face . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's eating .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It looks like Eeyore . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And there is some grass there .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} So this is what I like about {vocalsound} cows {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Horns ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: that they just keeps sitting there eating grass ,
Marketing: draw some horns . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: they do not disturb anybody um
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: they're kind of Buddhist in a way . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So yeah , I like cows . {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} my my role in the project is um uh the industrial designer , so I'm supposed to design all the details of of the product um ho how it works and whatever it'll mm take during the functional role , what are the various functions that have to be performed by it uh during the um conceptual design , what are the various components of it and um finally , I'm not too sure what was the last part . Um the detailed design , I I guess it will again be the identification of the components and how they integrate with each other . Um I'm from India . Uh I'm doing my P_H_D_ in Psycholinguistics , I sit at the Department of Psychology . {vocalsound} Yeah . Thank you .
Project Manager: Excellent .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Thanks .
Project Manager: Right , now now it's my turn obviously . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That doesn't look like a cow , does it ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , here's a space .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It looks very very cute .
Project Manager: Yeah , I like the cow .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: I'm Jen .
User Interface: Yeah . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um I like dogs too , but I can't do that already because I can't draw a dog as well as you can .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I like {disfmarker} Mm .
Marketing: Is that a lizard ?
Industrial Designer: No way . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: Wow .
Project Manager: It's a gecko .
Industrial Designer: Ah okay .
User Interface: Ah , a gecko , okay .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Is there a difference ?
User Interface: Is {disfmarker} a ar are they also like lizards or are they {disfmarker}
Project Manager: They're {disfmarker} Yeah , they're l it's a kind of lizard .
User Interface: yeah , they are
Project Manager: And I I like geckos
User Interface: {disfmarker} mm-hmm .
Project Manager: because they remind me of warm places {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh .
Project Manager: and , and where I was living in Cambodia they used to live in my house
User Interface: Ah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and they were on the ceiling and they would make little gecko noises in the evening .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I hope you don't like snakes , do you ?
Project Manager: I don't like snakes . I come from Australia
User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and we have nasty snakes . That's where I'm from , Australia .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: I'm from Melbourne and I'm your Project Manager for today
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: and my role is basically to keep things going and make sure that you all work together in a productive way , so that by the end of the day we come up with a great product .
User Interface: Wonderful .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Thank you .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So , let's see what's next in the PowerPoint presentation . So , I've just thought {disfmarker}
Marketing: If you right click on it you can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: yeah I've just thought about this that we could even put it much more professionally {vocalsound} as {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: there we go . Okay , so this is the um overall budget for our project . We've got {disfmarker} um we're planning to sell these remote controls for {disfmarker} let's make that go away , that means we've got five minutes . Um we're planning to sell the remote controls for twenty five Euros each . Um and with that we're aiming for a profit of fifty million Euros . And that's selling them on the international market , not just in the U_K_ . Um so to do that our finance people estimate that we need production costs of maximum twelve and a half Euro so that we can reach that profit target . So that's something to keep in mind while you're designing . Okay . Hmm . This is {disfmarker} let me just skip ahead to see {disfmarker} that's the last thing , okay . We've only got a couple of minutes . Does anyone have any first ideas to bounce around about um what we're thinking of this remote control ?
User Interface: Yep . I'm just wondering whether whether there is like any special feature that we want to have {disfmarker} w want this remote control have as opposed to the already existing ones .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . I think that's probably something that w it's best if we take away with us ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: but if we all have a think , when we go away from the meeting , what specific things could be um included in this remote control that that {vocalsound} are out of the ordinary .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I think uh i in the beginning uh one thing was {disfmarker} that was mentioned was that it should be mm trendy , user friendly and original so um I think your point is relevant as far as the originality is concerned , that we should provide some features that are quite unique to this .
Project Manager: Something something new .
Marketing: Yeah , I was looking at the website ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: and the other things that they've made and I like put down some like inspirational words like that I got from looking at the pictures . So the motto is um we put the fashion in electronics
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and um so it's something that is sleek and stylish but it's still functional , you know ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So I'm kind of thinking , you know like those phones that they have , the new generation ones , where they don't actually have any buttons on them and stuff like that .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Marketing: You know , so something heading towards that , so it's not overly {disfmarker} I mean I don't know what h most of the buttons do on my remote controls , so I figure how many do you need , you know ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: So perhaps some sort of menu-based thing , or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Something that's a little less crowded than this , like I mean you know , theoretically you can do all kinds of things with your T_V_ , right ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: But what do most people do ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: They turn it on , they watch certain specified channels , you know , and then they turn it off again .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} There is a lot of functionality in there that is not used ninety percent of the time ,
Marketing: Sometimes they play a movie .
Industrial Designer: but will be used ten percent of the time , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , so
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: there's no need to have buttons on it to do that ,
Project Manager: So , no .
Marketing: maybe to do {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: It could be one button for a menu or something , if you really need to go and do that .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And then use the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So , if you're the kind of sad case that knows how your remote control works , then you know that's fine
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: and you can do it on the screen rather than everybody else having to have those buttons , which just confuse them . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: Excellent .
Marketing: 'Cause like if you look at the train , it's just very like , there's no extra bits on it , the train on the website and I dunno if you can put it up on the thing
Project Manager: Oh I haven't had a look yet , yep .
Marketing: um but it is just like a long like thing used for mu moving people , but it looks really pretty too .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Great . Any other immediate thoughts before we move along ?
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound} Uh we can aim for {disfmarker} I mean we can think about all these little things , but we can aim for something wi that gives a high battery life , although I don't think that um it's a huge problem for remote controls anyway , battery life ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: uh every now and then you need to replace the batteries . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: Yeah but uh I mean e even though it has to be re original we shouldn't uh go like too far away from from the usual ones , because otherwise the new users will just have a lot of problems
Industrial Designer: Yeah . A big learning curve , yeah .
User Interface: with l {vocalsound} learning , yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . So , i it should kind of fit in as well , and the stereotype of a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's like those fancy websites that you can't access
Industrial Designer: yeah .
User Interface: Hm-hmm .
Project Manager: because you have no idea how to get in , but the designers thought they were great . Okay , so we need to wrap it up now , so that we can go away and get on with some of this . Um {vocalsound} we've got another meeting in thirty minutes , so you're {disfmarker} you'll be getting specific instructions once you go back to your workspace , but im basically you're looking at the working design ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Alright .
Project Manager: you're looking at the technical functions design , and for you it's the user requirements specification ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: like you said at the start . Okay ? Thanks for that .
User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound} Thank you .
Project Manager: Uh I'll see you in half an hour .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} .
User Interface: {vocalsound} See you .
Project Manager: Carry the laptops back again .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: Do we need to unplug things ? Probably . | |
doc_139 | PhD F: OK .
Professor B: Uh . Somebody else should run this . I 'm sick of being the one to sort of go through and say , " Well , what do you think about this ? " You wanna {disfmarker} ?
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD F: Should we take turns ? You want me to run it today ?
Professor B: Yeah . Why don't you run it today ? OK .
PhD F: OK . OK . Um . Let 's see , maybe we should just get a list of items {disfmarker} things that we should talk about . Um , I guess there 's the usual {pause} updates , everybody going around and saying , uh , you know , what they 're working on , the things that happened the last week . But aside from that is there anything in particular that anybody wants to bring up
PhD D: Mmm .
PhD F: for today ? No ? OK . So why don't we just around and people can give updates .
PhD E: Oh .
PhD F: Uh , do you want to start , Stephane ?
PhD C: Alright . Um . Well , the first thing maybe is that the p Eurospeech paper is , uh , accepted . Um . Yeah .
PhD F: This is {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what do you , uh {disfmarker} what 's in the paper there ?
PhD C: So it 's the paper that describe basically the , um , system that were proposed for the {pause} Aurora .
PhD F: The one that we s we submitted the last round ?
PhD C: Right , yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD F: Uh - huh .
PhD C: Um {disfmarker} Yeah . So and the , fff {comment} comments seems {disfmarker} from the reviewer are good . So .
PhD F: Hmm .
PhD C: Mmm {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD F: Where {disfmarker} where 's it gonna be this year ?
PhD C: It 's , uh , Aalborg in Denmark . And it 's ,
PhD F: Oh , OK .
PhD C: yeah , September .
PhD F: Mmm .
PhD C: Mmm {disfmarker} Yeah . Then , uh , whhh well , I 've been working on {disfmarker} on t mainly on on - line normalization this week . Uh , I 've been trying different {disfmarker} slightly {disfmarker} slightly different approaches . Um , the first thing is trying to play a little bit again with the , um , time constant . Uh , second thing is , uh , the training of , uh , on - line normalization with two different means , one mean for the silence and one for the speech . Um , and so I have two recursions which are controlled by the , um , probability of the voice activity detector . Mmm . This actually don't s doesn't seem to help , although it doesn't hurt . So . But {disfmarker} well , both {pause} on - line normalization approach seems equivalent . Well , they {disfmarker}
PhD F: Are the means pretty different {pause} for the two ?
PhD C: Yeah . They can be very different . Yeah . Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Hmm .
Professor B: So do you maybe make errors in different places ? Different kinds of errors ?
PhD C: I didn't look , uh , more closely . Um . It might be , yeah . Mm - hmm . Um . Well , eh , there is one thing that we can observe , is that the mean are more different for {disfmarker} for C - zero and C - one than for the other coefficients . And {disfmarker} Yeah . And {disfmarker} Yeah , it {disfmarker} the C - one is {disfmarker} There are strange {disfmarker} strange thing happening with C - one , is that when you have different kind of noises , the mean for the {disfmarker} the silence portion is {disfmarker} can be different . And {disfmarker}
PhD F: Hmm .
PhD C: So when you look at the trajectory of C - one , it 's {disfmarker} has a strange shape and I was expecting th the s that these two mean helps , especially because of the {disfmarker} the strange C - ze C - one shape , uh , which can {disfmarker} like , yo you can have , um , a trajectory for the speech and then when you are in the silence it goes somewhere , but if the noise is different it goes somewhere else .
PhD F: Oh .
PhD C: So which would mean that if we estimate the mean based on all the signal , even though we have frame dropping , but we don't frame ev uh , drop everything , but {disfmarker} uh , this can {disfmarker} hurts the estimation of the mean for speech , and {disfmarker} Mmm . {comment} But I still have to investigate further , I think . Um , a third thing is , um , {vocalsound} that instead of t having a fixed time constant , I try to have a time constant that 's smaller at the beginning of the utterances to adapt more quickly to the r something that 's closer to the right mean . T t um {disfmarker} Yeah . And then this time constant increases and I have a threshold that {disfmarker}
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: well , if it 's higher than a certain threshold , I keep it to this threshold to still , uh , adapt , um , the mean when {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if the utterance is , uh , long enough to {disfmarker} to continue to adapt after , like , one second
Professor B: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD C: or {disfmarker} Mmm . Uh , well , this doesn't help neither , but this doesn't hurt . So , well . It seems pretty {disfmarker}
PhD F: Wasn't there some experiment you were gonna try where you did something differently for each , um , {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} I don't know whether it was each mel band or each , uh , um , FFT bin or someth There was something you were gonna {disfmarker} uh , {comment} some parameter you were gonna vary depending on the frequency . I don't know if that was {disfmarker}
PhD C: I guess it was {disfmarker} I don't know . No . u Maybe it 's this {disfmarker} this idea of having different {pause} on - line normalization , um , tunings for the different MFCC 's .
PhD F: For each , uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: But {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Yeah . I {disfmarker} I thought , Morgan , you brought it up a couple meetings ago . And then it was something about , uh , some and then somebody said " yeah , it does seem like , you know , C - zero is the one that 's , you know , the major one " or , uh , s I can't remember exactly what it was now .
PhD C: Mmm . Yeah . There {disfmarker} uh , actually , yeah . S um , it 's very important to normalize C - zero and {pause} much less to normalize the other coefficients . And , um , actu uh , well , at least with the current on - line normalization scheme . And we {disfmarker} I think , we {vocalsound} kind of know that normalizing C - one doesn't help with the current scheme . And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} Yeah . In my idea , I {disfmarker} I was thinking that the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the reason is maybe because of these funny things that happen between speech and silence which have different means . Um {disfmarker} Yeah . But maybe it 's not so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} so easy to {disfmarker}
Professor B: Um , I I really would like to suggest looking , um , a little bit at the kinds of errors . I know you can get lost in that and go forever and not see too much , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} sometimes ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: but {disfmarker} but , um , just seeing that each of these things didn't make things better may not be enough . It may be that they 're making them better in some ways and worse in others ,
PhD C: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: or increasing insertions and decreasing deletions , or {disfmarker} or , um , um , you know , helping with noisy case but hurting in quiet case . And if you saw that then maybe you {disfmarker} it would {disfmarker} {vocalsound} something would occur to you of how to deal with that .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Hmm .
PhD C: Alright . Mmm . Yeah . W um , So that 's it , I think , for the on - line normalization . Um {disfmarker} Yeah . I 've been playing a little bit with some kind of thresholding , and , mmm , as a first experiment , I think I Yeah . Well , what I did is t is to take , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to measure the average {disfmarker} no , the maximum energy of s each utterance and then put a threshold {disfmarker} Well , this for each mel band . Then put a threshold that 's fifteen DB below {disfmarker} well , uh , a couple of DB below this maximum ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm . Mmm .
PhD C: and {disfmarker} Actually it was not a threshold , it was just adding noise .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: So I was adding a white noise energy , uh , that 's fifteen DB below the maximum energy of the utterance . And {disfmarker} Yeah . When we look at {disfmarker} at the , um , MFCC that result from this , they are {pause} a lot more smoother . Um , when we compare , like , a channel zero and channel one utterance {disfmarker} um , so a clean and , uh , the same noisy utterance {disfmarker} well , there is almost no difference between the cepstral coefficients of the two .
PhD F: Hmm .
PhD C: Um . And {disfmarker} Yeah . And the result that we have in term of speech recognition , actually it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not worse , it 's not better neither , but it 's , um , kind of surprising that it 's not worse
PhD F: Hmm .
PhD C: because basically you add noise that 's fifteen DB {disfmarker} just fifteen DB below {pause} the maximum energy .
Grad A: Sorry .
PhD C: And at least {disfmarker}
PhD F: So why does that m {pause} smooth things out ? I don't {disfmarker} I don't understand that .
Professor B: Well , there 's less difference . Right ?
PhD C: It 's {disfmarker} I think , it 's whitening {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} the portion that are more silent ,
Professor B: Cuz it 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: as you add a white noise that are {disfmarker} has a very high energy , it whitens everything
PhD F: Huh . Oh , OK .
PhD C: and {disfmarker} and the high - energy portion of the speech don't get much affected anyway by the other noise . And as the noise you add is the same is {disfmarker} {pause} the shape , it 's also the same .
PhD F: Hmm .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: So they have {disfmarker} the trajectory are very , very similar . And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}
Professor B: So , I mean , again , if you trained in one kind of noise and tested in the same kind of noise , you 'd {disfmarker} you know , given enough training data you don't do b do badly . The reason that we d that we have the problems we have is because {pause} it 's different in training and test . Even if {vocalsound} the general kind is the same , the exact instances are different . And {disfmarker} and
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: so when you whiten it , then it 's like you {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the only noise {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to first order , the only th noise that you have is white noise and you 've added the same thing to training and test .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So it 's ,
PhD F: Hmm .
Professor B: uh {disfmarker}
PhD F: So would that {pause} be similar to , like , doing the smoothing , then , over time or {disfmarker} ?
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Well , it 's a kind of smoothing ,
PhD C: I think it 's {disfmarker} I think it 's different .
Professor B: but {disfmarker}
PhD C: It 's {disfmarker} it 's something that {disfmarker} yeah , that affects more or less the silence portions because {disfmarker}
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Well , anyway , the sp the portion of speech that ha have high energy are not ch a lot affected by the noises in the Aurora database .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: If {disfmarker} if you compare th the two shut channels of SpeechDat - Car during speech portion , it 's n n n the MFCC are not very different . They are very different when energy 's lower , like during fricatives or during speech pauses . And ,
Professor B: Yeah , but you 're still getting more recognition errors ,
PhD C: uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: which means {vocalsound} that the differences , even though they look like they 're not so big , {vocalsound} are {disfmarker} are hurting your recognition .
PhD C: Ye
Professor B: Right ?
PhD C: Yeah . So it distort {vocalsound} the speech . Right .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Um .
PhD F: So performance went down ?
PhD C: No . It didn't . But {disfmarker}
PhD F: Oh .
PhD C: Yeah . So , but in this case I {disfmarker} I really expect that maybe the {disfmarker} the two {disfmarker} these two stream of features , they are very different . I mean , and maybe we could gain something by combining them
Professor B: Well , the other thing is that you just picked one particular way of doing it .
PhD C: or {disfmarker}
Professor B: Uh , I mean , first place it 's fifteen DB , uh , {vocalsound} down across the utterance . And {vocalsound} maybe you 'd want to have something that was a little more adaptive . Secondly , you happened to pick fifteen DB
PhD C: Mmm .
Professor B: and maybe twenty 'd be better ,
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: or {disfmarker} or twelve .
PhD C: Yeah . Right .
PhD F: So what was the {disfmarker} what was the threshold part of it ? Was the threshold , uh , how far down {disfmarker} ?
Professor B: Yeah . Well , he {disfmarker} yeah , he had to figure out how much to add . So he was looking {disfmarker} he was looking at the peak value .
PhD F: Uh - huh .
Professor B: Right ? And then {disfmarker}
PhD C: Uh - huh .
PhD F: And {disfmarker} and so what 's {disfmarker} ho I don't understand . How does it go ? If it {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if the peak value 's above some threshold , then you add the noise ? Or if it 's below s
PhD C: I systematically {comment} add the noise , but the , um , noise level is just {pause} some kind of threshold below the peak .
PhD F: Oh , oh . I see .
PhD C: Mmm .
PhD F: I see .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Um . Yeah . Which is not really noise , actually . It 's just adding a constant to each of the mel , uh , energy .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: To each of the {pause} mel filter bank . Yeah .
PhD F: I see .
PhD C: So , yeah , it 's really , uh , white noise . I th
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So then afterwards a log is taken , and that 's so sort of why the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the little variation tends to go away .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Um . Yeah . So may Well , the {disfmarker} this threshold is still a factor that we have to look at . And I don't know , maybe a constant noise addition would {disfmarker} {vocalsound} would be fine also , or {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}
Professor B: Or {disfmarker} or not constant but {disfmarker} but , uh , varying over time {pause} in fact is another way {pause} to go .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Um .
PhD C: Yeah . Um {disfmarker}
Professor B: Were you using the {disfmarker} the normalization in addition to this ? I mean , what was the rest of the system ?
PhD C: Um {disfmarker} Yeah . It was {disfmarker} it was , uh , the same system . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: OK .
PhD C: It was the same system . Mmm . Oh , yeah . A third thing is that , um , {vocalsound} I play a little bit with the , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} finding what was different between , um , And there were a couple of differences , like the LDA filters were not the same . Um , he had the France Telecom blind equalization in the system . Um , the number o of MFCC that was {disfmarker} were used was different . You used thirteen and we used fifteen . Well , a bunch of differences . And , um , actually the result that he {disfmarker} he got were much better on TI - digits especially . So I 'm kind of investigated to see what was the main factor for this difference . And it seems that the LDA filter is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} was hurting . Um , {vocalsound} so when we put s some noise compensation the , um , LDA filter that {disfmarker} that 's derived from noisy speech is not more {disfmarker} anymore optimal . And it makes a big difference , um , {vocalsound} on TI - digits trained on clean . Uh , if we use the {disfmarker} the old LDA filter , I mean the LDA filter that was in the proposal , we have , like , eighty - two point seven percent recognition rate , um , on noisy speech when the system is trained on clean speech . But {disfmarker} and when we use the filter that 's derived from clean speech we jumped {disfmarker} so from eighty - two point seven to eighty - five point one , which is a huge leap .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Um . Yeah . So now the results are more similar , and I don't {disfmarker} I will not , I think , investigate on the other differences , which is like the number of MFCC that we keep and other small things that we can I think optimize later on anyway .
Professor B: Sure . But on the other hand if everybody is trying different kinds of noise suppression things and so forth , it might be good to standardize on the piece {vocalsound} that we 're not changing . Right ? So if there 's any particular reason to ha pick one or the other , I mean {disfmarker} Which {disfmarker} which one is closer to what the proposal was that was submitted to Aurora ? Are they {disfmarker} they both {disfmarker} ? Well , I mean {disfmarker}
PhD C: I think {disfmarker} Yeah . I think th th uh , the new system that I tested is , I guess , closer because it doesn't have {disfmarker} it have less of {disfmarker} of France Telecom stuff ,
PhD D: You mean the {disfmarker}
PhD C: I {disfmarker}
PhD D: The {disfmarker} whatever you , uh , tested with recently . Right ?
PhD C: Mmm ? Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah ?
Professor B: Well , no , I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Yeah , you 're trying to add in France Telecom .
PhD C: But , we {disfmarker}
Professor B: Tell them about the rest of it . Like you said the number of filters might be {vocalsound} different or something . Right ? Or {disfmarker}
PhD D: The number of cepstral coefficients is what ?
Professor B: Cep
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yeah . So , I mean , I think we 'd wanna standardize there , wouldn't we ?
PhD C: Yeah , yeah .
Professor B: So , sh you guys should pick something
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: and {disfmarker} Well , all th all three of you .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD C: I think we were gonna work with {disfmarker} with this or this new system , or with {disfmarker}
PhD D: Uh , so the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} right now , the {disfmarker} the system that is there in the {disfmarker} what we have in the repositories , with {disfmarker} uses fifteen .
PhD C: So {disfmarker} Right . Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah , so {disfmarker} Yeah , so {disfmarker} Yep .
PhD C: But we will use the {disfmarker} the LDA filters f derived from clean speech . Well , yeah , actually it 's {disfmarker} it 's not the {disfmarker} the LDA filter .
PhD D: Yeah , yeah . So {disfmarker}
PhD C: It 's something that 's also short enough in {disfmarker} in latency .
PhD D: Yeah . Well .
PhD C: So .
PhD D: Yeah . So , we haven't {disfmarker} w we have been always using , uh , fifteen coefficients ,
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: not thirteen ?
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Yeah . Well , uh , that 's {disfmarker} something 's {disfmarker} Um . Yeah . Then {disfmarker}
Professor B: I think as long as you guys agree on it , it doesn't matter .
PhD D: mmm {disfmarker}
Professor B: I think we have a maximum of sixty , {vocalsound} uh , features that we 're allowed . So .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah . Ma - maybe we can {disfmarker} I mean , at least , um , I 'll t s run some experiments to see whether {disfmarker} once I have this {vocalsound} {comment} noise compensation to see whether thirteen and fifteen really matters or not .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Never tested it with the compensation , but without , {vocalsound} uh , compensation it was like fifteen was s slightly better than thirteen ,
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: so that 's why we stuck to thirteen .
PhD C: Yeah . And there is {disfmarker} there is also this log energy versus C - zero .
PhD D: Sorry , fifteen . Yeah , the log energy versus C - zero .
PhD C: Well . W w if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}
PhD D: Uh , that 's {disfmarker} that 's the other thing . I mean , without noise compensation certainly C - zero is better than log energy . Be - I mean , because the {disfmarker} there are more , uh , mismatched conditions than the matching conditions for testing .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: You know , always for the matched condition , you always get a {pause} slightly better performance for log energy than C - zero .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: But not for {disfmarker} I mean , for matched and the clean condition both , you get log energy {disfmarker} I mean you get a better performance with log energy .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Well , um , maybe once we have this noise compensation , I don't know , we have to try that also , whether we want to go for C - zero or log energy .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: We can see that .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Hmm .
PhD C: Mmm .
PhD F: So do you have {pause} more , Stephane , or {disfmarker} ?
PhD C: Uh , that 's it , I think . Mmm .
PhD F: Do you have anything , Morgan , or {disfmarker} ?
Professor B: Uh , no . I 'm just , you know , being a manager this week . So .
PhD F: How about you , Barry ?
Grad A: Um , {vocalsound} still working on my {disfmarker} my quals preparation stuff . Um , {vocalsound} so I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm thinking about , um , starting some , {vocalsound} uh , cheating experiments to , uh , determine the , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the relative effectiveness of , um , some intermediate categories that I want to classify . So , for example , um , {vocalsound} if I know where voicing occurs and everything , um , {vocalsound} I would do a phone {disfmarker} um , phone recognition experiment , um , somehow putting in the {disfmarker} the , uh {disfmarker} the perfect knowledge that I have about voicing . So , um , in particular I was thinking , {vocalsound} um , in {disfmarker} in the hybrid framework , just taking those LNA files , {vocalsound} and , um , {vocalsound} setting to zero those probabilities that , um {disfmarker} that these phones are not voicing . So say , like , I know this particular segment is voicing , um , {vocalsound} I would say , uh , go into the corresponding LNA file and zonk out the {disfmarker} the posteriors for , um , those phonemes that , um , are not voiced ,
PhD F: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad A: and then see what kinds of improvements I get . And so this would be a useful thing , um , to know {vocalsound} in terms of , like , which {disfmarker} which , um {disfmarker} which of these categories are {disfmarker} are good for , um , speech recognition .
PhD F: Hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad A: So , that 's {disfmarker} I hope to get those , uh {disfmarker} those experiments done by {disfmarker} by the time quals come {disfmarker} come around in July .
PhD F: So do you just take the probabilities of the other ones and spread them out evenly among the {disfmarker} the remaining ones ?
Grad A: Yeah . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was thinking {disfmarker} OK , so just set to {disfmarker} set to some really low number , the {disfmarker} the non - voiced , um , phones .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Right ? And then renormalize .
PhD F: Mmm .
Grad A: Right . Yeah .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Cool . That will be really interesting to see , you know . So then you 're gonna feed the {disfmarker} those into {pause} some standard recognizer .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Uh , wh are you gonna do digits
Grad A: Yeah , m Um , well , I 'm gonna f work with TIMIT {disfmarker}
PhD F: or {disfmarker} ? With TIMIT . OK .
Grad A: TIMIT {disfmarker} uh , phone recognition with TIMIT .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: And , um {disfmarker}
PhD F: Oh , so then you 'll feed those {disfmarker} Sorry . So where do the outputs of the net go into if you 're doing phone recognition ?
Grad A: Oh . Um , the outputs of the net go into the standard , h um , ICSI hybrid , um , recognizer . So maybe , um , Chronos
PhD F: An - and you 're gonna {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} you 're gonna do phone recognition with that ?
Grad A: or {disfmarker} Phone recognition . Right , right .
PhD F: OK , OK . I see .
Grad A: So . And , uh , another thing would be to extend this to , uh , digits or something where I can look at whole words .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: And I would be able to see , uh , not just , like , phoneme events , but , um , {vocalsound} inter - phoneme events . So , like , this is from a stop to {disfmarker} to a vo a vocalic
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: segment . You know , so something that is transitional in nature .
PhD F: Right .
Grad A: Yeah .
PhD F: Cool . Great .
Grad A: So that 's {disfmarker} that 's it .
PhD F: Uh {disfmarker} OK .
Grad A: Yeah .
PhD F: Um {disfmarker} Let 's see , I haven't done a whole lot on anything related to this this week . I 've been focusing mainly on Meeting Recorder stuff .
PhD C: Oh .
PhD F: So , um , {vocalsound} I guess I 'll just pass it on to Dave .
Grad G: Uh , OK . Well , in my lunch talk last week I {disfmarker} I said I 'd tried phase normalization and gotten garbage results using that l um , long - term mean subtraction approach . It turned out there was a bug in my Matlab code . So I tried it again , um , and , um , the results {vocalsound} were {disfmarker} were better . I got intelligible speech back . But they still weren't as good as just subtracting the magnitude {disfmarker} the log magnitude means . And also I 've been talking to , um , Andreas and Thilo about the , um , SmartKom language model and about coming up with a good model for , um , far mike use of the SmartKom system . So I 'm gonna be working on , um , implementing this mean subtraction approach in the {vocalsound} far - mike system {disfmarker} for the SmartKom system , I mean . And , um , one of the experiments we 're gonna do is , um , we 're gonna , um , train the {disfmarker} a Broadcast News net , which is because that 's what we 've been using so far , and , um , adapt it on some other data . Um , An - Andreas wants to use , um , data that resembles read speech , like {pause} these digit readings , because he feels that the SmartKom system interaction is not gonna be exactly conversational .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: S so actually I was wondering , how long does it take to train that Broadcast News net ?
Professor B: The big one takes a while . Yeah . That takes two , three weeks .
Grad G: Two , three weeks .
Professor B: So {disfmarker} but , you know , uh , you can get {disfmarker} I don't know if you even want to run the big one , uh , um , in the {disfmarker} in the final system , cuz , you know , it takes a little while to run it . So , {vocalsound} um , you can scale it down by {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , it was two , three weeks for training up for the large Broadcast News test set {disfmarker} training set . I don't know how much you 'd be training on .
Grad G: Oh .
Professor B: The full ?
Grad G: OK .
Professor B: Uh , i so if you trained on half as much {vocalsound} and made the net , uh , uh , half as big , then it would be one fourth {pause} the amount of time
Grad G: OK .
Professor B: and it 'd be nearly as good . So .
Grad G: OK .
Professor B: Yeah . Also , I guess we had {disfmarker} we 've had these , uh , little di discussions {disfmarker} I guess you ha haven't had a chance to work with it too much {disfmarker} about {disfmarker} about , uh {disfmarker} uh , uh m other ways of taking care of the phase . So , I mean , I {disfmarker} I guess that was something I could say would be that we 've talked a little bit about
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: you just doing it all with complex arithmetic and , uh {disfmarker} and not {disfmarker} not , uh , doing the polar representation with magnitude and phase . But {vocalsound} it looks like there 's ways that one could potentially just work with the complex numbers and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and in principle get rid of the {vocalsound} effects of the average complex spectrum . But {disfmarker}
Grad G: And , um , actually , regarding the phase normalization {disfmarker} So I did two experiments , and one is {disfmarker} So , phases get added , modulo two pi , and {disfmarker} because you only know the phase of the complex number t t to a value modulo two pi . And so I thought at first , um , that , uh , what I should do is unwrap the phase because that will undo that . Um , but I actually got worse results doing that unwrapping using the simple phase unwrapper that 's in Matlab than I did not unwrapping at all .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Hmm .
Professor B: Yeah . P So .
Grad G: And that 's all I have to say .
PhD F: Hmm .
Professor B: Yeah . So I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm still hopeful that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I mean , we {disfmarker} we don't even know if the phase {vocalsound} is something {disfmarker} the average phase is something that we do want to remove . I mean , maybe there 's some deeper reason why it isn't the right thing to do . But , um , at least in principle it looks like there 's {disfmarker} there 's , uh , a couple potential ways to do it . One {disfmarker} one being to just work with the complex numbers , um , and , uh {disfmarker} in rectangular kind of coordinates . And the other is {vocalsound} to , uh , do a Taylor series {disfmarker} Well . So you work with the complex numbers and then when you get the spectrum {disfmarker} the average complex spectrum {disfmarker} um , actually divide it out , um , as opposed to taking the log and subtracting . So then , um , um , you know , there might be some numerical issues . We don't really know that . The other thing we talked a little bit about was Taylor series expansion . And , um , uh , actually I was talking to Dick Karp about it a little bit , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and , since I got thinking about it , and {disfmarker} and , uh , so one thing is that y you 'd have to do , I think , uh {disfmarker} we may have to do this on a whiteboard , but I think you have to be a little careful about scaling the numbers that you 're {vocalsound} taking {disfmarker} the complex numbers that you 're taking the log of because {vocalsound} the Taylor expansion for it has , you know , a square and a cube , and {disfmarker} and so forth . And {disfmarker} and so if {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you have a {disfmarker} a number that is modulus , you know , uh , very different from one {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It should be right around one , if it 's {disfmarker} cuz it 's a expansion of log one {disfmarker} one minus epsilon or o is {disfmarker} is {vocalsound} one plus epsilon , or is it one plus {disfmarker} ? Well , there 's an epsilon squared over two and an epsilon cubed over three ,
Grad G: OK .
Professor B: and so forth . So if epsilon is bigger than one , then it diverges .
Grad G: Oh .
Professor B: So you have to do some scaling . But that 's not a big deal cuz it 's the log of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} of K times a complex number , then you can just {disfmarker} that 's the same as log of K plus {vocalsound} log of the complex number .
Grad G: Oh .
Professor B: Uh , so there 's {disfmarker}
Grad G: OK .
Professor B: converges . But .
PhD F: Hmm . OK . How about you , Sunil ?
PhD D: So , um , I 've been , uh , implementing this , uh , Wiener filtering for this Aurora task . And , uh , I {disfmarker} I actually thought it was {disfmarker} it was doing fine when I tested it once . I it 's , like , using a small section of the code . And then I ran the whole recognition experiment with Italian and I got , {vocalsound} like , worse results than not using it . Then I {disfmarker} So , I 've been trying to find where the problem came from . And then it looks like I have some problem in the way {disfmarker} there is some {disfmarker} some very silly bug somewhere . And , ugh ! I {disfmarker} I mean , i uh , it actually {disfmarker} i it actually made the whole thing worse . I was looking at the spectrograms that I got and it 's , like {disfmarker} w it 's {disfmarker} it 's very horrible . Like , when I {disfmarker}
Professor B: I {disfmarker} I missed the v I 'm sorry , I was {disfmarker} I was distracted . I missed the very first sentence . So then , I 'm a little lost on the rest .
PhD D: Oh , I mean {disfmarker}
Professor B: What {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} ?
PhD D: Oh , yeah . I actually implemented the Wiener f f fil filtering as a module and then tested it out separately .
Professor B: Yeah , I see . Oh , OK .
PhD D: And it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it gave , like {disfmarker} I just got the signal out and it {disfmarker} it was OK . So , I plugged it in somewhere and then {disfmarker} I mean , it 's like I had to remove some part and then plugging it in somewhere . And then I {disfmarker} in that process I messed it up somewhere .
Professor B: OK .
PhD D: So . So , it was real I mean , I thought it was all fine and then I ran it , and I got something worse than not using it . So , I was like {disfmarker} I 'm trying to find where the m m problem came ,
Professor B: Uh - huh .
PhD D: and it seems to be , like , somewhere {disfmarker}
Professor B: OK .
PhD D: some silly stuff . And , um , the other thing , uh , was , uh , uh {disfmarker} Well , Hynek showed up one {disfmarker} suddenly on one day and then I was t talking wi
Professor B: Right . Yeah . As {disfmarker} as he is wont to do . Yeah .
PhD D: Uh , yeah . So I was actually {disfmarker} that day I was thinking about d doing something about the Wiener filtering , and then Carlos matter of stuff . And then he showed up and then I told him . And then he gave me a whole bunch of filters {disfmarker} what Carlos used for his , uh , uh , thesis and then {vocalsound} that was something which came up . And then , um {disfmarker} So , uh , I 'm actually , {vocalsound} uh , thinking of using that also in this , uh , W Wiener filtering because that is a m modified Wiener filtering approach , where instead of using the current frame , it uses {vocalsound} adjacent frames also in designing the Wiener filter . So instead of designing our own new Wiener filters , I may just use one of those Carlos filters in {disfmarker} in this implementation
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: and see whether it {disfmarker} it actually gives me something better than using just the current f current frame , which is in a way , uh , something like the smoothing {disfmarker} the Wiener filter {disfmarker}
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: but @ @ {disfmarker} S so , I don't know , I was h I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm , like {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} so that is the next thing . Once this {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} once I sort this pro uh , problem out maybe I 'll just go into that also . And the {disfmarker} the other thing was about the subspace approach . So , um , I , like , plugged some groupings for computing this eigen uh , uh , uh , s values and eigenvectors . So just {disfmarker} I just @ @ some small block of things which I needed to put together for the subspace approach . And I 'm in the process of , like , building up that stuff . And , um , uh {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} Yeah . I guess {disfmarker} Yep . I guess that 's it . And , uh , th th that 's where I am right now . So .
PhD F: Oh . How about you , Carmen ?
PhD E: Mmm . I 'm working with VTS . Um , I do several experiment with the Spanish database first , only with VTS and nothing more . Not VAD , no LDA , nothing more .
PhD F: What {disfmarker} what is VTS again ?
PhD D: New {disfmarker}
PhD E: Eh , Vectorial Taylor Series .
PhD F: Oh , yes .
PhD E: To remove the noise too .
PhD F: Right , right . I think I ask you that every single meeting , don't I ?
PhD E: What ?
PhD F: I ask you that question every meeting .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: So , that 'd be good from {disfmarker} for analysis .
PhD E: If {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}
Professor B: It 's good to have some , uh , cases of the same utterance at different {disfmarker} different times .
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD F: " What is VTS ? "
PhD E: VTS . I 'm sor Well , um , the question is that {disfmarker} Well . Remove some noise but not too much . And when we put the {disfmarker} m m the , em , VAD , the result is better . And we put everything , the result is better , but it 's not better than the result that we have without VTS . No , no .
Professor B: I see . So that @ @ {comment} given that you 're using the VAD also , the effect of the VTS is not {pause} so far {disfmarker}
PhD E: Is not .
Professor B: Do you {disfmarker} How much of that do you think is due to just the particular implementation and how much you 're adjusting it ? Or how much do you think is intrinsic to {disfmarker} ?
PhD E: Pfft . I don't know because {disfmarker}
PhD C: Are you still using only the ten first frame for noise estimation
PhD E: Hhh ,
PhD C: or {disfmarker} ? Or i ?
PhD E: Uh , I do the experiment using only the f onl eh , to use on only one fair estimation of the noise .
PhD C: Yeah . Hmm .
PhD E: And also I did some experiment , {vocalsound} uh , doing , um , a lying estimation of the noise . And , well , it 's a little bit better but not {disfmarker} n
PhD C: Maybe you have to standardize this thing also , noise estimation , because all the thing that you are testing use a different {disfmarker} They all need some {disfmarker} some noise {disfmarker} noise spectra
PhD D: Mmm .
PhD E: Mmm . No , I do that two {disfmarker} t did two time .
PhD C: but they use {disfmarker} every {disfmarker} all use a different one .
Professor B: I have an idea . If {disfmarker} if , uh , uh , y you 're right . I mean , each of these require this . Um , given that we 're going to have for this test at least of {disfmarker} uh , boundaries , what if initially we start off by using {pause} known sections of nonspeech {pause} for the estimation ?
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Right ? S so , e um ,
PhD C: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: first place , I mean even if ultimately we wouldn't be given the boundaries , {vocalsound} uh , this would be a good initial experiment to separate out the effects of things . I mean , how much is the poor {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , relatively , uh , unhelpful result that you 're getting in this or this or this is due to some inherent limitation to the method for these tasks and how much of it is just due to the fact that you 're not accurately {vocalsound} finding enough regions that {disfmarker} that are really {vocalsound} n noise ?
PhD D: Mmm .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Um . So maybe if you tested it using that , {vocalsound} you 'd have more reliable {pause} stretches of nonspeech to do the estimation from and see if that helps .
PhD E: Yeah . Another thing is the , em {disfmarker} the codebook , the initial codebook . That maybe , well , it 's too clean and {disfmarker}
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Cuz it 's a {disfmarker} I don't know . The methods {disfmarker} If you want , you c I can say something about the method .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Yeah . In the {disfmarker} Because it 's {vocalsound} a little bit different of the other method . Well , we have {disfmarker} If this {disfmarker} if this is the noise signal , {nonvocalsound} uh , in the log domain , we have something like this . Now , we have something like this . And the idea of these methods is to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} n given a , um {disfmarker}
Professor B:
PhD E: How do you say ? I will read because it 's better for my English . I i given is the estimate of the PDF of the noise signal when we have a , um , a statistic of the clean speech and an statistic of the noisy speech . And the clean speech {disfmarker} the statistic of the clean speech is {pause} from a {pause} codebook . Mmm ? This is the idea . Well , like , this relation is not linear . The methods propose to develop this in a vectorial Taylor series {pause} approximation .
Professor B: I I 'm actually just confused about {pause} the equations you have up there . So , uh , the top equation is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker}
PhD E: No , this in the {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} this is the log domain . I {disfmarker} I must to say that .
Professor B: Which is {disfmarker} which is the log domain ?
PhD E: Is the T {disfmarker} is egual {disfmarker} {comment} is equal to , uh , log of {disfmarker}
Professor B: And {disfmarker} but Y is what ? Y of {disfmarker} the spectrum
PhD E: Uh , this {disfmarker} this is this
Professor B: or {disfmarker} ?
PhD E: and this is this .
Professor B: No , no . The top Y is what ?
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Is that power spectrum ?
PhD E: Uh , this is the noisy speech .
PhD C: p s this {disfmarker}
Professor B: No , is that power spectrum ? Is it {disfmarker} ?
PhD C: Yeah . I guess it 's the power spectrum of noisy speech .
PhD E: Yeah . It 's the power spectrum .
Professor B: Oh , OK .
PhD C: Yeah . And {disfmarker}
Professor B: So that 's uh {disfmarker}
PhD E: This is the noisy {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's {disfmarker}
Professor B: OK .
PhD E: of the value {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah , OK . So this {disfmarker} it 's the magnitude squared or something .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: OK , so you have power spectrum added there and down here you have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you {disfmarker} you put the {disfmarker} depends on T , but {disfmarker} b all of this is just {disfmarker} you just mean {disfmarker}
PhD E: w o Yeah . It 's the same .
Professor B: you just mean the log of the {disfmarker} of the one up above .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: And , uh , so that is X times ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: uh ,
PhD D: One {disfmarker} one plus N by X .
PhD E: Yeah , maybe {disfmarker}
Professor B: o
PhD E: But , n Well , y we can expre we can put this expression {disfmarker}
Professor B: X times one plus , uh , N {disfmarker} uh , N {disfmarker} N {disfmarker} N minus X ?
PhD E: The {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor B: And then , uh {disfmarker} So that 's log of X plus log of one plus , uh {disfmarker}
PhD E: And the noise signal .
Professor B: Well . Is that right ? Log of {disfmarker}
PhD D: One plus N by X .
PhD E: Well , mmm {disfmarker}
Professor B: I actually don't see how you get that . Uh .
PhD E: Well , if we apply the log , we have E is n
PhD C: Mmm .
PhD D: Uh , and {disfmarker}
PhD E: uh , log {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} E is equal , oh , to log of X plus N .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: And , well ,
PhD D: And , log of {disfmarker}
PhD E: uh , we can say that E {nonvocalsound} {vocalsound} is equal to log of , {nonvocalsound} {nonvocalsound} um , exponential of X plus exponential of N .
Professor B: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: No .
PhD D: No .
Professor B: That doesn't follow .
PhD D: Well , if E restricts {disfmarker} It is y
PhD E: Well , this is {disfmarker} this is in the ti the time domain . Well , we have that , um {disfmarker} We have first that , for example , X is equal , uh {disfmarker} Well . This is the frequency domain
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: and we can put {vocalsound} u that n the log domain {disfmarker} log of X omega , but , well , in the time domain we have an exponential . No ? No ? Oh , maybe it 's I am {disfmarker} I 'm problem .
Professor B: Yeah . I mean , just never mind what they are . Uh , it 's just if X and N are variables {disfmarker} Right ?
PhD D: What is , uh {disfmarker} ?
Professor B: The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the log of X plus N is not the same as the log of E to the X plus E to the N .
PhD E: Yeah . But this i Well , I don't {disfmarker} Well , uh ,
Professor B: Maybe we can take it off - line ,
PhD E: maybe {disfmarker}
Professor B: but I {disfmarker} I don't know .
PhD E: I {disfmarker} I can do this incorrectly . Well , the expression that appear in the {disfmarker} in the paper , {nonvocalsound} is , uh {disfmarker}
PhD D: The log {disfmarker} the Taylor series expansion for log one plus N by X is {disfmarker}
Professor B: OK .
PhD C: Is it the first - order expansion ?
PhD E: is X {disfmarker}
Professor B: I i
PhD D: Yeah , the first one .
PhD C: Yeah , I guess .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: OK . Yeah . Cuz it doesn't just follow what 's there .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD C: Uh - huh .
Professor B: It has to be some , uh , Taylor series {disfmarker}
PhD D: Y yeah . If {disfmarker} if you take log X into log one plus N by X , and then expand the log one plus N by X into Taylor series {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD E: Now , this is the {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah , but the {disfmarker} the second {pause} expression that you put is the first - order expansion of the nonlinear relation between {disfmarker}
PhD E: Not exactly .
Professor B: No .
PhD E: No , no , no . It 's not the first space . Well , we have {disfmarker} pfft , uh , em {disfmarker} Well , we can put that X is equal {disfmarker} I is equal to log of , uh , mmm {disfmarker}
Professor B: That doesn't follow .
PhD D: Mmm .
PhD E: Well , we can put , uh , this ?
PhD D: No .
Professor B: That {disfmarker} I mean , that {disfmarker} the f top one does not {pause} imply the second one . Because {disfmarker} cuz the log of a sum is not the same as {pause} th
PhD E: The top ?
Professor B: I mean , as {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: But we can {disfmarker} uh , we {disfmarker} we know that , for example , the log of {vocalsound} E plus B is equal to log of E plus log to B .
Professor B: Right .
PhD E: And we can say here , it i
Professor B: Right . So you could s
PhD C: What is that ?
PhD E: And we can , uh , put this inside .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: And then we can , uh ,
Professor B: N no ,
PhD E: you know {disfmarker}
Professor B: but {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: I don't see how you get the second expression from the top one .
PhD D: Uh .
Professor B: The {disfmarker} I mean , just more generally here , {vocalsound} if you say " log of , um , A plus B " , the log of {disfmarker} log of A plus B is not {disfmarker} or A plus B is not the , um , log of E to the A plus E to the B .
PhD E: No , no , no , no , no , no , no . This not .
Professor B: Right ? And that 's what you seem to be saying .
PhD E: No . No . It 's not . But this is the same {disfmarker} oh .
Professor B: Right ? Cuz you {disfmarker} cuz you {disfmarker} up here you have the A plus B {disfmarker}
PhD E: No . I say if I apply log , I have , uh , log of E is equal to log of , uh {disfmarker} in this side , is equal to log of X
Professor B: Plus N .
PhD E: plus N .
Professor B: Right .
PhD E: No ?
Professor B: Right .
PhD E: Right .
Professor B: And then how do you go from there to the {disfmarker} ?
PhD E: This is right . And then if I apply exponential , to have here E {disfmarker}
Professor B: Look . OK , so let 's {disfmarker} I mean , C equals A plus B ,
PhD C: It 's log o of capital Y . Yeah , right .
Professor B: and then {disfmarker}
PhD C: Capital {pause} Y .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD D: X . X . This is X , inside .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Right .
PhD E: We have this , no ?
Professor B: Yeah . That one 's right .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: One and {disfmarker}
PhD E: S uh , i th we can put here the set transformation .
Professor B: Oh . I see .
PhD E: No ?
Professor B: I see . OK , I understand now . Alright , thanks .
PhD E: Yeah . In this case , well , we can put here a {nonvocalsound} Y .
Professor B: OK . So , yeah . It 's just by definition {pause} that the individual {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that the , uh {disfmarker} So , capital X is by definition the same as E to the little X because she 's saying that the little X is {disfmarker} is the , uh {disfmarker} is the log . Alright .
PhD E: Now we can put this .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: No ?
Professor B: Alright .
PhD E: And here we can multiply by X .
Professor B: I think these things are a lot clearer when you can use fonts {disfmarker} different fonts there
PhD E: Oh , yes .
Professor B: so you know which is which . But I {disfmarker} I under I understand what you mean now .
PhD E: Yeah , yeah . That 's true . That 's true .
Professor B: OK .
PhD E: But this {disfmarker} this is correct ?
Professor B: Sure .
PhD E: And now I can do it , uh {disfmarker} pfff ! I can put log {nonvocalsound} of EX {vocalsound} plus log {disfmarker}
Professor B: Oh . Yes . I understand now . And that 's where it comes from .
PhD E: And this is {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah . Right .
Professor B: Right .
PhD E: Now it 's correct .
Professor B: Right . OK . Thanks .
PhD E: Well . The idea {disfmarker} Well , we have fixed this equa
Professor B: OK . So now once you get that {disfmarker} that one , then you {disfmarker} then you do a first or second - order , or something , Taylor {vocalsound} series expansion of this .
PhD E: Yeah . This is another linear relation that this {disfmarker} to develop this in {vocalsound} vector s Taylor series .
PhD C: Yeah , sure .
Professor B: Right .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . And for that , well , the goal is to obtain , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} est estimate a PDF for the noisy speech when we have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a statistic for clean speech and for the noisy speech . Mmm ? And when w the way to obtain the PDF for the noisy speech is {disfmarker} well , we know this statistic and we know the noisy st well , we can apply first order of the vector st Taylor series of the {disfmarker} of the {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} well , the order that we want , increase the complexity of the problem .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: And then when we have a expression , uh , for the {vocalsound} mean and variance of the noisy speech , we apply a technique of minimum mean - square estimation
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: to obtain the expected value of the clean speech given the {disfmarker} this {vocalsound} statistic for the noisy speech {disfmarker}
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: the statistic for clean speech and the statistic of the noisy speech . This only that . But the idea is that {disfmarker}
PhD C: And the {disfmarker} the model of clean speech is a codebook . Right ?
PhD E: u Yeah . We have our codebook with different density {vocalsound} Gaussian .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: We can expre we can put that the {vocalsound} PDF {comment} for the clean test , probability of the clean speech is equal to {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E:
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So , um , how {disfmarker} h how much {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the work they reported , how much noisy speech did you need to get , uh , good enough statistics for the {disfmarker} to get this mapping ?
PhD E: I don't know exactly .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: I {disfmarker} I need to s
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: I don't know exactly .
Professor B: Cuz I think what 's certainly characteristic of a lot of the {pause} data in this test is that , um , you don't have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the training set may not be a {disfmarker} a great estimator for the noise in the test set . Sometimes it is and sometimes it 's not .
PhD E: Yeah . I {disfmarker} the clean speech {disfmarker} the codebook for clean speech , I am using TIMIT . And I have now , uh , sixty - four {nonvocalsound} Gaus - Gaussian .
Professor B: Uh - huh . And what are you using for the noisy {disfmarker} ? Y y doing that strictly {disfmarker}
PhD E: Of the noise {disfmarker} I estimate the noises wi
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Well , for the noises I only use one Gaussian .
Professor B: And {disfmarker} and you {disfmarker} and you train it up entirely from , uh , nonspeech sections in the test ?
PhD C: Hmm .
PhD E: Uh , yes . The first experiment that I do it is solely to calculate the , mmm {disfmarker} well , this value {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: uh , the compensation of the dictionary o one time using the {disfmarker} the noise at the f beginning of the sentence .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: This is the first experiment .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: And I fix this for all the {disfmarker} all the sentences . Uh , because {disfmarker} well , the VTS methods {disfmarker} In fact the first thing that I do is to {disfmarker} to obtain , uh , an expression for E {disfmarker} probability e expression of {disfmarker} of E . That mean that the VTS {disfmarker} mmm , with the VTS we obtain , uh {disfmarker} well , we {disfmarker} we obtain the means for each Gaussian {comment} and the variance .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: This is one . Eh , this is the composition of the dictionary .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: This one thing . And the other thing that this {disfmarker} with these methods is to , uh , obtain {disfmarker} to calculate this value .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Because we can write {disfmarker} uh , we can write that {vocalsound} the estimation of the clean speech is equal at an expected value of the clean speech conditional to , uh , the noise signal {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the probability f of the {disfmarker} the statistic of the clean speech and the statistic of the noise .
Professor B: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD E: This is the methods that say that we 're going obtain this .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: And we can put that this is equal to the estimated value of E minus a function that conditional to E to the T {disfmarker} to the noise signal . Well , this is {disfmarker} this function is the {vocalsound} the term {disfmarker} after develop this , the term that we {disfmarker} we take . Give PX and , uh , P the noise .
PhD D: X K C noise .
Professor B: Mmm .
PhD E: And I can {vocalsound} put that this is equal to {pause} the {pause} noise signal minus {disfmarker} Well , I put before {pause} this name , uh {disfmarker} And I can calculate this .
Professor B: What is the first variable in that probability ?
PhD E: Uh , this is the Gaussian .
Professor B: No , no . I 'm sorry . In {disfmarker} in the one you pointed at . What 's that variable ?
PhD E: v Uh , this is the {disfmarker}
PhD D: Weak . So probably it {disfmarker} it would do that .
PhD E: like this ,
PhD C: It 's one mixture of the model . Right ?
PhD E: but conditional . No , it 's condition it 's not exactly this . It 's modify . Uh , if we have clean speech {disfmarker} we have the dictionary for the clean speech , we have a probability f of {disfmarker} our {disfmarker} our weight for each Gaussian .
Professor B: OK .
PhD E: No . And now , this weight is different now
Professor B: Yes .
PhD E: because it 's conditional . And this I need to {disfmarker} to calcu I know this
Professor B: Uh - huh .
PhD E: and I know this because this is from the dictionary that you have .
Professor B: Uh - huh .
PhD E: I need to calculate this .
Professor B: Yes .
PhD E: And for calculate this , {vocalsound} I have an {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I can develop an expression that is
PhD D: It 's overlapping .
PhD E: that . I can calculate {disfmarker} I can {disfmarker} I calculated this value , {vocalsound} uh , with the statistic of the noisy speech that I calculated before with the VTS approximation .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: And {disfmarker} well , normalizing . And I know everything . Uh , with the , nnn {disfmarker} when I develop this in s Taylor {disfmarker} Taylor series , I can't , um , {vocalsound} calculate the mean and the variance {vocalsound} of the {disfmarker} for each of the Gaussian of the dictionary for the noisy speech . Now . And this is fixed .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: If I never do an estimat a newer estimation of the noise , this mean as {disfmarker} mean and the variance are fixed .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: And for each s uh , frame of the speech the only thing that I need to do is to calculate this in order to calculate the estimation of the clean speech given our noisy speech .
Professor B: So , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm not following this perfectly but , um , I {disfmarker} Are you saying that all of these estimates are done {pause} using , um , estimates of the probability density for the noise that are calculated only from the first ten frames ? And never change throughout anything else ?
PhD E: Yeah . Never cha This is one of the approximations that I am doing .
Professor B: Per {disfmarker} per {disfmarker} per utterance , or per {disfmarker} ?
PhD E: Per utterance . Yes .
Professor B: Per utterance . OK .
PhD E: Per utterance . Yes .
Professor B: So it 's done {disfmarker} it 's done new for each new utterance .
PhD E: And th
Professor B: So this changes the whole mapping for every utterance .
PhD E: Yeah . It 's not {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor B: OK .
PhD E: Yeah . It 's fixed , the dictionary .
Professor B: OK .
PhD E: And the other estimation is when I do the uh on - line estimation , I change the means and variance of th for the noisy speech
Professor B: Yeah ?
PhD E: each time that I detect noise .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: I do it uh again this develop . Estimate the new mean and the variance of the noisy speech . And with th with this new s new mean and variance I estimate again this .
Professor B: So you estimated , uh , f completely forgetting what you had before ? Uh , or is there some adaptation ?
PhD E: Um , no , no , no . It 's not completely {disfmarker} No , it 's {disfmarker} I am doing something like an adaptation of the noise .
Professor B: OK . Now do we know , either from their experience or from yours , that , uh , just having , uh , two parameters , the {disfmarker} the mean and variance , is enough ? Yeah . I mean , I know you don't have a lot of data to estimate with , but {disfmarker} but , uh , um {disfmarker}
PhD E: I estimate mean and variance for each one of the Gaussian of the codebook .
Professor B: No , I 'm talking about the noise .
PhD E: Oh ,
Professor B: There 's only one Gaussian .
PhD E: um . Well , only one {disfmarker} I am only {disfmarker} using only one .
Professor B: Right .
PhD E: I don't know i
Professor B: And you {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and it 's , uh , uh {disfmarker} right , it 's only {disfmarker} it 's only one {disfmarker} Wait a minute . This is {disfmarker} what 's the dimensionality of the Gaussian ? This is {disfmarker}
PhD E: Uh , it 's in {disfmarker} after the mel filter bank .
Professor B: So this is twenty or something ?
PhD E: Twenty - three .
Professor B: Twenty ? So it 's {disfmarker} Yeah . So it 's actually forty numbers {pause} that you 're getting . Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} maybe you don't have a {disfmarker}
PhD E: Uh , the original paper say that only one Gaussian for the noise .
Professor B: Well , yeah . But , I mean , {vocalsound} no {disfmarker} no paper is {disfmarker} is a Bible ,
PhD E: Yeah , maybe isn't the right thing .
Professor B: you know . This is {disfmarker} this is , uh {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Professor B: The question is , um , {vocalsound} whether it would be helpful , i particularly if you used {disfmarker} if you had more {disfmarker} So , suppose you did {disfmarker} This is almost cheating . It certainly isn't real - time . But if y suppose you use the real boundaries that {disfmarker} that you were {disfmarker} in fact were given {vocalsound} by the VAD and so forth or I {disfmarker} I guess we 're gonna be given even better boundaries than that . And you look {disfmarker} you take all o all of the nonspeech components in an utterance , so you have a fair amount . Do you benefit from having a better model for the noise ? That would be another question .
PhD E: Maybe .
Professor B: So first question would be {vocalsound} to what extent i are the errors that you 're still seeing {vocalsound} based on the fact that you have poor boundaries for the , uh , uh , nonspeech ? And the second question might be , given that you have good boundaries , could you do better if you used more parameters to characterize the noise ? Um . Also another question might be {disfmarker} Um , they are doing {disfmarker} they 're using first term only of the vector Taylor series ?
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: Um , if you do a second term does it get too complicated cuz of the nonlinearity ?
PhD E: Yeah . It 's quite complicated .
Professor B: Yeah , OK . No , I won't ask the next question then .
PhD E: Oh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's the {disfmarker} for me it 's the first time that I am working with VTS .
Professor B: Yeah . No , it 's interesting .
PhD E: Uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: Uh , w we haven't had anybody work with it before , so it 's interesting to get your {disfmarker} get your feedback about it .
PhD E: It 's another type of approximation because i because it 's a statistic {disfmarker} statistic approximation to remove the noise . I don't know .
Professor B: Right .
PhD F: Great . OK . Well , I guess we 're about done . Um , so some of the digit forms don't have digits . Uh , {vocalsound} we ran out there were some blanks in there , so not everybody will be reading digits . But , um , I guess you 've got some . Right , Morgan ?
Professor B: I have some .
PhD F: So , why don't you go ahead and start . And I think it 's {pause} just us down here at this end that have them .
PhD D: S
PhD E: um
PhD F: So .
Professor B: Uh , OK .
PhD D: S so , we switch off with this
PhD F: Whenever you 're ready .
PhD D: or n ?
PhD F: Uh , leave it on ,
PhD D: No . OK .
PhD F: uh ,
Professor B: They prefer to have them on
PhD F: and the {disfmarker}
Professor B: just so that they 're continuing to get the distant , uh , information .
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD D: OK . OK .
PhD F: OK .
Professor B: OK . S | |
doc_140 | Project Manager: All hooked up . {vocalsound} Okay , so now we are here at the functional design meeting . Um {vocalsound} hopefully this meeting I'll be doing a little bit less talking than I did last time 'cause this is when you get to show us what you've been doing individually . The agenda for the meeting , I put it in the sh shared documents folder . I don't know if that meant that you could see it or not .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Did anyone ?
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: No . Oh well . Um I'll try and do that for the next meeting as well so if you check in there , there's a shared project documents folder . Um and it should be in there .
User Interface: Mm . Um um wi on on a what ? Oh project project documents , yeah , yeah , yeah , okay .
Project Manager: Project documents , yeah . So I'll put it in there .
User Interface: Oh okay , yeah .
Project Manager: Is it best if I send you an email maybe , to let you know it's there ?
User Interface: Yes , I think so .
Project Manager: Yep . I'll do that next time . Um {vocalsound} I'll act as secretary for this meeting and just take minutes as we go through , and then I'll send them to you after the meeting . The main the main focus of this meeting is your presentations that you've been preparing during the time , so we'll go through each of you one by one . Um then we need to briefly discuss the new project requirements that were sent to us . I just sent
User Interface: Yeah , the last minute , yeah ,
Project Manager: at the last minute , I'm sorry about that ,
User Interface: yeah .
Project Manager: but we can see how that affects what you were you were doing .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um and then we need to , by the end of the meeting come to some kind of decision on who our target group's going to be and what the functions of the remote control {disfmarker} that's the the main goal is to come up with those two things , target group and functions of the remote control . And we've got forty minutes to do that in . So I would say {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You said uh targ target groups ,
Project Manager: yeah ?
Industrial Designer: what does that mean ?
Project Manager: As uh who it is that we're going to be trying to sell this thing to ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh okay , 'kay .
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: So are {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So we need to {disfmarker} yeah , we need to have a fairly defined group that that we want to focus on
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: and then look at the functions um of the dem remote control itself . So with that I think it's best if I hand over to you . Does anyone have a preference for going first ?
Industrial Designer: Alright . {vocalsound} I can go first ,
Project Manager: You wanna go first ?
Industrial Designer: yeah .
User Interface: Okay . Hmm .
Project Manager: Okay , so we need to unplug my laptop and plug in yours .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I assume we just pull it out ?
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Right . Um {vocalsound} so f from the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Just before you start , to make it easier , would you three mind emailing me your presentations ? Once we {disfmarker} you don't have to do it now but when {disfmarker} once you go back ,
User Interface: Okay , yeah , afterwards , yeah , okay .
Industrial Designer: Right sure .
Project Manager: just so that I don't have to scribble everything down .
Industrial Designer: Uh okay . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} So n uh with uh with regard to the {vocalsound} uh working design of this uh uh remote control uh I've identified um {vocalsound} a few basic uh components of the remote and uh {vocalsound} se uh from the design , functional design perspective um w I c we can now uh know wha what exactly the components are and how how they work together with each other . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} So {vocalsound} {vocalsound} this is the method that uh I'll mostly be following in my um {vocalsound} in my uh role . Um the identification of the components , uh and uh since since I'm dealing only with the technical aspects , I would need feedback from the marketing person uh and {vocalsound} uh from the user interface person . Uh we'll then integrate this into the product design at a technical level
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: and uh basically update and come up with a new design , so it's a cyclical process . {vocalsound} Okay , so {vocalsound} these were the basic findings from today . The last three bullets have been integrated from uh the last minute uh email . Uh I just quickly jotted them down . Um {vocalsound} so basically uh the {disfmarker} as I told you the identification of how the remote control works and what are the various parts to it uh and what are the different processes um {vocalsound} and how the parts uh communicate with each other . Um {vocalsound} okay , so e the mee email said that teletext is now outdated , so we need to do away with that functionality of the remote control . Um also uh the remote control should be used only for television , because incorporating other features um makes it more comp complex . And the reason why teletext is outdated because uh of internet and uh the availability of internet over television . How however , our our remote control would only be dealing uh with the {vocalsound} the use for television , {vocalsound} in order to keep things simple . Um {vocalsound} also the management wants that um our design should be unique uh it {disfmarker} so {vocalsound} it should incorporate um colour and the slogan uh that our company um has it as its standard . {vocalsound} Okay , so he he here is a functional overview of the remote control . Um {vocalsound} there's basically an energy source at the heart uh which feeds into the chip and the user interface . The user interf interface communicates with the chip , so {vocalsound} I'll basic go over to the {disfmarker} Okay . {vocalsound} So {vocalsound} if uh if this is our energy source and this is a cell , uh it communicates {disfmarker} uh it feeds energy into the into the chip , which basically finds out h uh how how to do everything . There is a user interface here . {vocalsound} So whe when the user presses a button , it feeds into the chip and the chip then generates a response and takes the response to an infrared terminal , um which then {disfmarker} so the output of the chip is an infrared bit code , which is then communicated {vocalsound} to the remote site , which h has an infrared receiver . Um the there can be uh a bulb here or something to indicate whether the remote is on or communicating . Um so these are the essent so a all the functionality of the remote control , whatever new functions that we need to do , um make the chip more complicated uh and bigger , basically .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Um so {vocalsound} i in my personal preferences um {vocalsound} I'm hoping that we can ke keep the design as simple and clear as possible . This would uh help us uh to upgrade our technology at a future point of time . And uh also if we can incorporate uh the latest features in our chip design , so that our um {vocalsound} uh remote control does not become outdated soon and it's compatible with mot most uh televisions . {vocalsound} That's about it . {vocalsound} So anything that you would like to know or {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Thanks .
Project Manager: Do you have any um i idea about costs at this point ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No , I don't have any idea about what each component costs .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Br
Industrial Designer: Um yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . 'Cause that's something to consider , I guess , if we're if we're using more advanced technology , it might increase the price .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Certainly , yeah . So so tha yeah , {vocalsound} we definitely need to operate within our constraints ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but um {vocalsound} unfortunately I I do not have any data , so uh I just identified the functional components for that .
Project Manager: That's fine . Are there any more questions , or shall we just skip straight to the next one and then we can discuss all of them together at the end ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} I think we need like some general discussion at the end probably .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , okay .
Project Manager: Yeah , I think that will do . Okay , so do you want to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah , I think since since we were discussing some um design issues then I I I would like to continue {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes , shall shall we pull this up ?
User Interface: okay , yeah .
Project Manager: I think that has to come out of there .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm 'kay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Thanks .
Project Manager: Yeah , I thought those last minute things , they're gonna hit you the worst . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh i {vocalsound} Okay , I hope {disfmarker} wait . Should it just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I it'll take some time .
Project Manager: It ta takes a little {disfmarker} Oh , and have you {disfmarker}
User Interface: There's just nothing .
Project Manager: you need to then also press on yours , function F_ eight ,
User Interface: Oh right , right , right , um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: so the blue function key at the bottom and F_ eight .
User Interface: Okay . Nothin
Industrial Designer: Oh , there it is , yeah .
User Interface: okay , something is coming up .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Now it's coming ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It'll come up , it {disfmarker} um uh no signal .
Project Manager: computer no signal .
User Interface: No signal ? Why ?
Project Manager: Maybe again ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah , it says something now ,
User Interface: Oh . My my computer went blank now .
Industrial Designer: adjusting {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , adjusting .
User Interface: Adjusting . But {vocalsound} I don't see anything
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: There we go , there we go .
User Interface: I don't see anything on my computer now .
Industrial Designer: Oh , that's strange .
Project Manager: Oh , if you press if you press function and that again
User Interface: This is the problem , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: there's there's usually three modes , one where it's only here , one where it's only there , and one where it's both .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Um {gap} .
Industrial Designer: And one more time .
Project Manager: Okay , so one more time .
User Interface: Uh now it's {disfmarker} okay . No ? No .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Should {disfmarker} yeah just wait for a moment , adjusting .
User Interface: Oh okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: Okay , that's fine , that's good . Okay , let's start from the beginning . So I'm going to speak about technical functions design uh just like some {vocalsound} some first issues that came up . Um 'kay , so the method I was um adopting at this point , it's not um for the for the whole um period of the um {vocalsound} all the project but it's just at th at this very moment .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Um uh my method was um to look at um other {vocalsound} um remote controls , uh so mostly just by searching on the web and to see what um functionality they used . And then um after having got this inspiration and having compared what I found on the web um just to think about what the de what the user really needs and what um what the user might desire as additional uh functionalities . {vocalsound} And yeah , and then just to um {vocalsound} put the main function of the remote control in in words .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Um so the findings uh were {vocalsound} um that the main function of the remote control is is just sending messages to the television set , so this quite straightforward . And uh w some of the main functions would be switching on , switching off , uh then the user would like to switch the channel um for example just m changing to the next channel to to flip through all all of the possible channels , or then mm {vocalsound} uh the other possibility would be that um she might just want to choose one particular channel , so we would need the numbers . And and also the volume is very important . Um {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} I als
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sorry , cou could you go back for a second ?
User Interface: okay .
Industrial Designer: Uh switching on off channel , uh volume , {vocalsound} okay , that's great .
User Interface: 'Kay . Um um among the findings I found that m m most of the curr mm presently available remote controls also include other mm {vocalsound} functionalities um in their design , like operating a V_C_R_ , but they don't seem to be able to deal with D_V_D_ players , but then {vocalsound} there are {disfmarker} surely there are many other functionali functions that could possibly be added to them , but according to the last minute update um actually um we do not want to have all this complicated functions added to our design .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So my personal preferences would be uh to keep the mm the whole remote control small um just like the physical size . And then it must be easy to use , so it must follow some conventions um like whereabouts you find the on off button and maybe the colour tends to be red or something . Um then {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah , the must-have buttons would be on off and then {vocalsound} the channel numbers and then um {vocalsound} the one that allows us to go to the next or the previous channel , and then volume has to be there . But then um other functionalities um {vocalsound} could be just {disfmarker} uh there could be a menu button and you could change things on the screen then , um for example brightness and mm similar functions could be just um {vocalsound} done through the menu . And yeah , the last question I had about whether we wanted to incorporate n uh more functionalities , the answer was already no because of the last minute update .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So at the {disfmarker} for the time being that's uh that's all .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: If you have questions {disfmarker}
Project Manager: If {disfmarker} I mean that was the the directive that came through from management , but if we had a a decent case for {disfmarker} that we really think it's important to include video and D_V_D_ , I could get back to them and see . It's w it's just whether it's worth arguing about .
User Interface: Yeah , and also it's it's um {disfmarker} other question is uh because there are so many different {disfmarker} And there are so many different things that could possibly be included
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: because besides video and D_V_D_ there are the mm um video C_D_s and whatever , so it might be problematic to to choose between all these possible things .
Project Manager: Yeah . Mm-hmm . Okay .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Are there any questions for clarification of Maarika before we go on to the next one ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So in the u user interface requirements uh uh uh we we have been able to identify what are the basic buttons that we do want . Um but um {vocalsound} so so at this stage , uh how we go about implementing those button we will not identify or {disfmarker} I mean in {disfmarker} we can completely do away with buttons and uh have some kind of a fancy user interface or something like that . But uh is is there any uh uh any thoughts on that ?
User Interface: Um well , I think the buttons are still mm kind of the most um easy for the user to use ,
Industrial Designer: Right .
User Interface: I mean um what other options would you have ? A little screen or something , but this would be really kind of I think a lot of learning for the user
Industrial Designer: Yeah , and it'll make the costs {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: and and I mean the user just wants to get um get a result um quickly , not to spend time in like um giving several orders um I dunno .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I think I th I would I would think the put the buttons , but if if you have other mm proposals um .
Industrial Designer: Uh I think the co costs will also play a big role when we come to know about them .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: So well we can probably wait until t we have more knowledge on that .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh i if the if the costs allow , we can have like an L_C_D_ display
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and uh with um {disfmarker} because we do want something fancy and fashionable as well . So yeah ? Cool .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Yep .
Project Manager: Sure , we can discuss that maybe after the next one .
Marketing: Cool . Do you wanna give me the little cable thing ?
Project Manager: Do you want to {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: Uh am I going in the right direction ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} No . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Wait .
Project Manager: Oh , I'm getting hungry . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay , here it comes . Okay , here you are .
Marketing: Cool . Ah , that's why it won't meet . {vocalsound} Okay , cool .
Project Manager: You set ?
Marketing: Yep , cool . Okay , functional requirements .
Project Manager: Uh we need to do the function key thing so that it comes up on here .
Marketing: Alright , yeah .
Project Manager: Hello .
Industrial Designer: {gap} try to press {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is it plugged in prop
Industrial Designer: oh , okay ,
Marketing: It's working .
Project Manager: it's working ?
Industrial Designer: yep .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Cool , okay .
Project Manager: Excellent .
Marketing: So what I have , wh where I've got my information from is a survey where the usability lab um observed remote control use with um a hundred subjects and then they gave them a questionnaire . Um so it was all about , you know , how people feel about the look and feel of the remote control , you know . What's the most annoying things about remote controls and um the possibility of speech recognition and L_C_D_ screens in remote control . Not that they actually gave me any answers on the L_C_D_ screens , so I should have taken that bit out , but anyway .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um okay , so . What they found is that people don't like how current remote controls are , so you know , definitely you should be looking at something quite different . Um seventy five percent of users find most remote controls ugly . {vocalsound} Uh the other twenty five percent have no fashion sense . Uh eighty percent of users would spend more to get um you know , a nice looking remote control .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um current remote controls , they don't match the user behaviour well , as you'll see on the next slide . Um I dunno what zapping is , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's um switching between channels , sort of randomly going through .
Marketing: Oh , right . But you have that little thing that comes up at the bottom and tells you what's on . Um okay , fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: so that's going back to what , you know , we were saying earlier about , you know , do you need all the buttons on the remote control ,
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: they just make it look ugly .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Okay ? Cool . Um so this is my little graph thing .
Project Manager: Ooh , that's a bit difficult to see .
Marketing: Mm k
Project Manager: If you explain it to us it'll be fine .
Marketing: Okay , well , I can send it to all of you . What it is is um it's cones ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: 'cause I thought they'd be more exciting . Um but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I liked the , I liked the litt
Marketing: ooh where's it go ?
Project Manager: ooh come back .
Marketing: Back . Oh .
Project Manager: No .
Marketing: Oh yes , cool . Okay , I'm gonna stop playing with the little pointy thing .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Um okay , so like what it shows is how much things are used relatively and what you can clearly see from that is the thing that's used most is the channel selection .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: What you can't see is volume selection , it's a little bit higher than all the others .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm , that's the next one along , yeah ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , so what the graph shows is that , you know , power , channel selection and volume selection are important , and the rest of them , you know , nobody really uses and so that's the the numbers along the top represent their like um their importance , you know ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: so on a scale of one to ten , how important is that
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and , you know , channel selection and volume selection are absolutely essential , and the power , well it's not quite so essential , apparently , although I don't understand how it couldn't be ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} um and everything else , I think , you know , you can forget about having those buttons on the remote control , 'cause they're just not needed , and they're not used . Okay .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: This is the bit that the email messed up for me and that's what I was fiddling about with at the beginning of the thing . {vocalsound} Okay , cool . So um okay , so this is what people find annoying about remote controls . Uh that they get lost , that the uh you know , they're not intuitive and that they're bad for repetitive strain injury .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: I think if you're watching enough T_V_ to get repetitive strain injury from um you know , watching T_V_ , then {vocalsound} that's the least of your problems ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} The remote control . {vocalsound}
Marketing: but you know , {vocalsound} it's up there .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Um that {disfmarker} yeah . Okay , so um I mean the the R_S_I_ thing would be that , like when you have the computer keyboards and you keep your wrists up would be something that encourages {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: you want something with an ergonomic t design that encourages good use of the remote control and you know , not straining your wrists watching T_V_ {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes . Okay , cool . Right , um sorry this is pink because I was copying and pasting the table , and I didn't have time to white it out again .
Project Manager: That's alright .
Marketing: Um okay , but that shows how people {disfmarker} whether they would pay more for voice recognition software . So you can see from that that , you know , younger people to the age of thirty five are quite likely to pay quite a lot more f well quite {disfmarker} are quite likely to pay more for voice recognition software , whereas as people get older , they're a bit more sceptical about it and they're less willing to to try it . Um so clearly voice recognition is something to think about , but um you know I d I do wonder how well that would work given that a T_V_ , you know , tends to be people talking and um , you know , how are you going to stop it from just flipping channels whilst watching T_V_ .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: Um okay ? Cool . Um okay , so these are my personal preferences . {vocalsound} So you have sleek , stylish , sophisticated , you know , so something that's , you know , a bit cool . Um you know , functional , so it's useful , but minimalist . Um there's a there's an important thing that , you know , people use when , you know , when you're filling up your home , you know , a lot of people fill up their home with bits of crap , basically , you know , and you've got all this stuff , and you're just like , what the hell is that , who is ever gonna use it ? You know , so things should either be functional or beautiful or preferably both , so I think we need to aim for both .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Mm .
Marketing: Um okay , then a long battery life , like you were talking about earlier and um , you know , I was thinking that solar power would be quite cool because , you know , your remote control just sits there , and you could just sit it in the sunshine and save the environment a bit .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um and then like a locator , so you know , kind of like you have for a mobile phone or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: not a mobile phone {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Some kind of a ring ,
Project Manager: Keys and things like that ,
Industrial Designer: some {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , that's it , you know .
Project Manager: yeah . Whistle and it {vocalsound} screams at you , yeah .
Marketing: I know , it's weird . My flatmate and I were talking about this on the way into uni this morning and I was like I need to get one for everything .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So yeah , so maybe something where you clap and then it beeps , something {vocalsound} {disfmarker} a kind of sound that you don't often hear on the T_V_ , you know ,
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: 'cause you don't want your remote control beeping every five minutes ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: 'cause you you'd then deliberately lose it by throwing it out the window or something .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: So okay ? Cool . That's me . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay , that's great ,
Project Manager: That's you , excellent .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um that's very good ,
Industrial Designer: thanks .
Project Manager: Um .
User Interface: very interesting .
Project Manager: I'm just gonna tick yes . So , we've got about ten , fifteen minutes to discuss
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound} I think one of the very interesting things that came up in um {vocalsound} uh Ka Kate Cat Cat's uh presentation was um {vocalsound} uh this this issue of uh uh like voice recognition being more popular with uh younger people .
Marketing: Cat's . Ca {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: So if we need to have a target group um then uh {vocalsound} I think as far as the m motto of our company is concerned , if we want to have something sleek and uh you know , good looking uh we are better off targeting a younger audience then um you know , people who are comparatively elderly . Um .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah , I mean that's the thing is that it didn't say in the survey , you know , whether , you know , these are the people that will pay more for a more stylish remote control ,
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: but I'm assuming , you know , yes .
Industrial Designer: Right . Bu but but the survey did say that f things like voice recognition are more popular with them ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so if you want to put in something stylish , then uh th it'll certainly be more popular with this i ye with the younger people as compared to older people ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah .
Project Manager: Then again I guess the th where it was most popular was the fifteen to twenty five bracket
Industrial Designer: Right , and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and the {disfmarker} I don't know how often they're buying televisions .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right . Mm .
Marketing: Well , that's when you go to uni , isn't it ? So , you know {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , but you don't have much money , generally .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah ,
Project Manager: I would've thought it's it's more that twenty five to thirty five , when people are really moving out and they've got their first job and they want their nice toys and {disfmarker}
User Interface: you share a television or something that {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But uh still , if if you can go back to that slide and uh , how popular was it ?
Project Manager: O oh it's on {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh , I've unplugged it .
Project Manager: sorry , we unplugged it .
Industrial Designer: Oh , oh , okay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Do you want me to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Here , let me {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That's alright , if you can just look it up on your computer , wh uh um people between twenty five to thirty five , uh how popular was {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Seventy six point three percent .
Industrial Designer: so it was sti still still quite popular amongst them .
User Interface: It was seventy something , yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: So even they are seventy six percent , is that high amount ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah , I kn I mean I know what you're saying about the fifteen to twenty five year olds ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: but I mean it has been proven that that people of that age group have a higher disposable income because they don't have like {disfmarker} I mean , you know , if you're at university , you're paying your rent ,
Project Manager: Yeah , they've got no commitments and
Marketing: but you don't have a mortgage , you don't have a life insurance policy ,
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: you don't normally have a car ,
Project Manager: usually not a car and all of those things .
Marketing: yeah , so .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: You're still learning to drive actually ,
Project Manager: Kids . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So you're more likely to b
Marketing: so that just costs more than a car ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} but yeah . Um so I mean like it is an age group to target , really , I think .
Project Manager: Yeah , and if we're if we're talking twenty five Euros as a price , that's not unaffordable , even for young people .
Marketing: No , I mean that's what , that's like fifteen Pounds ? You know , I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah this this is not {vocalsound} unaffordable ,
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: but the problem is whether people need it , whether they do have a T_V_ {vocalsound} to use its full {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , I d I don't know many people without a T_V_ . We didn't have a T_V_ last year ,
Project Manager: But do they {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: and everyone thought we were off our heads , you know .
Project Manager: But the T_V_s are often kind of someone's old T_V_ that's blah blah
User Interface: Common , the students {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . The s the stu
Project Manager: and be a bit strange to have a fancy {vocalsound} rome remote .
User Interface: yeah , and the remote control might not {disfmarker} yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Mm
User Interface: it might not even function with the old T_V_ .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Bu but even even in the case of twenty five to thirty five it's quite popular , right ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , I d well we've we've got quite a d decent T_V_ .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: So mm uh are are are {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: we're still {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Or w maybe we can just kind of uh uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think I think the fact that , you know , ninety one point two percent of fifteen to twenty five year olds are saying yes , I would pay more for a voice recognition remote control , does say quite a lot really .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: You know , so I mean that and the disposable income and {disfmarker} I don't think it's something to ignore , you know .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , but at the same time I think maybe we can we can just decide to to have both of these groups as our target ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: because actually I mean they're all still re young people .
Marketing: Is not a massive difference , you know . No , do totally .
Project Manager: Yeah , if we ta if we take fifteen to thirty five ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: but that then does imply that we should try and incorporate voice recognition .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Is that gonna have a {disfmarker} an implication for the technical specs ?
Industrial Designer: I was having a a general outlook on um m most like sophisticated features , but voice recognition itself I'm not very sure about , because one of the p uh things that Cat pointed out was uh uh how do we go about implementing it ? Uh and uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: You do have it in your mobile phone though , don't you ? Because you have like {disfmarker} I mean every mobile phone now has like call this person and it calls them .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . But how frequently do we use it anyway
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and um uh h ho how good is it ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: you know uh voice recognition softwares are still quite uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't know .
Project Manager: Yeah . With um {disfmarker} but with a T_V_ remote it's gonna be quite limited if we're t saying the main things people want to do is on off channel five ,
User Interface: An
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: S so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: louder ,
Industrial Designer: Right . Okay .
Project Manager: tha that should be relatively simple .
Industrial Designer: O {vocalsound}
Marketing: y you'd maybe need a code word . Do you know what I mean ?
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: So like when you say change , except that's {vocalsound} being said quite a lot on T_V_ ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: so maybe like , you know , remote . I mean how often do people say remote on T_V_ ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Although I only watch Charmed , so really {vocalsound} I wouldn't know
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but like so you'd just say remote five , you know , remote ten , remote one two nine .
Industrial Designer: Right . Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so it seems like a feasible thing to implement uh for for a limited
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , but maybe if you wanna look into that just to just to check .
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Um , so if we go for the the fifteen to thirty five age group and then of course we're going to get th anyone who's older than thirty five who wants to look young and hip and trendy and has the money ,
User Interface: Yeah but uh um {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah sure , yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: then they'll they'll still go for the same advertising .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I don't think there's a lot of uh voice recognition remote controls .
User Interface: Yeah , w well now the v the voice recognition if if it works wonderfully w we could possibly do away with all buttons , but I think this is not really the right moment yet , because people are just so used to buttons
Project Manager: Yeah ,
User Interface: and um , yeah it's it's kind of safer , so we we need both ,
Industrial Designer: Mm . W
Project Manager: I think we need both .
Industrial Designer: What uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: so the voice recognition would be just an extra , it wouldn't really reduce the size of the remote .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: What wh uh {vocalsound} what I was thinking is that there is this uh separation between what the channels are on T_V_ and how they are numbered on the remote control . If we can do with {disfmarker} away with that , our product can be really popular uh in the sense that uh a person can say , I want to watch uh I_T_V_ one instead of saying that I want to go onto channel number forty five .
Project Manager: Uh-huh . Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , so if uh if something like that can be incorporated , {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , that would be another way to do it .
Project Manager: So that if that was in the the voice recognition , that would be great .
Industrial Designer: some kind of {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , but then the code word would be even more important , because {disfmarker} I mean Sky advertise on every channel , don't they , you know ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: so then it would be {disfmarker} you'd be watching Charmed , and then the Sky advert would come on and it would change to Sky .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Watch Sky and {vocalsound} yeah .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: and that would be really annoying . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . But that's definitely a possibility .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah but m but on the other hand , remote control isn't {vocalsound} as close to you you probably might just just uh speak into it
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: and and the T_V_ would be already further away , so it might not pick up the other things coming from there .
Marketing: Yeah . Do you not think that defeats the object of having voice recognition on a remote control though ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So that you can yell at it ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , you know , so you have to have the remote control .
Project Manager: yeah .
Marketing: It's more like if you lost it and it's down the sofa sometime , you can yell at it {vocalsound} and it'll just change it , you can look for it later , yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Alright .
User Interface: Yeah , but then the remote control I think {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} um the idea is kind of {disfmarker} it's it's not that it's sitting there on on top of the television , because then you could already yell at the television and you wouldn't you you wouldn't need the remote control , so the remote control is still something you keep n near yourself .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah , I suppose nearer to you but a b like if you have surround sound then {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah and it might become very difficult from a distance for the television to understand what you're saying because of the noise factor for the remote control
Project Manager: Mm . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: being cl I mean it'll it'll {disfmarker} mm .
User Interface: No , but I I I was just defending the {vocalsound} the fact why why we want to keep the remote control close to us , a and uh not to yell at it from the distance .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm . So uh {vocalsound} wh another thing uh that can be used is that uh there can be a beeper button on the T_V_ ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so you can go and press that button and um and the remote control , wherever it is , it'll beep ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so we we can probably come to know where it is .
Project Manager: That's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: but then if you're buying the remote separately ,
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: but y {vocalsound} you could have something , but i if it was something that you could like stick onto the T_V_ or something ,
User Interface: Oh yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right , yeah , yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: some {disfmarker} like a two p if you bought it in a two part pack , so one part attaches to the T_V_ .
User Interface: Okay , yeah , mm-hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , 'cause it's it's quite important that you don't lose the the bit to locate the remote control .
Project Manager: The l
Industrial Designer: Alright , yeah .
Project Manager: Well that's right , but it solves the problem of having different noises .
Marketing: Yeah , definitely , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay , I think we're gonna have to wrap this up um . But if we go away with that that kind of general um {vocalsound} specification in mind that we're looking at fifteen to thirty five year olds , we want it to look simple , but still have the buttons so it's easy to use , but only those key buttons , the major buttons and then one sort of menu one , and then voice recognition included as an option
User Interface: The major ones , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: um but that obviously needs a little bit more working out as to whether it's really feasible and some of those problems we were mentioning um . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: What we have to do now is to go back to our little places , complete our questionnaire and some sort of summarisation , which y you'll get immediately by email . Send me your presentations so that I can use them to make the minutes , and then we've got a lunch break
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: and after lunch we go back to our own little stations and have thirty minutes more work .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um I'll put the minutes in that project documents folder , but I'll send you an email when I do it , so that you know .
Industrial Designer: So where exactly is this i
Project Manager: It should be on your desktop , so on the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ah , okay .
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So I'll put it {disfmarker} I'll put them there as soon as I've written them .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Did you find it ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah in that one ,
User Interface: It's just {disfmarker} yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: right yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , and email them round .
Marketing: Oh , so y you want our um PowerPoint presentations in there , hey ?
Project Manager: Yeah , that would be great .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Oh so so we'll just put them i there ,
Project Manager: Oh yeah , put them in there . Yeah ,
User Interface: we we {disfmarker} yeah , w we won't even {disfmarker} okay .
Marketing: There you go .
Project Manager: then you don't have to email them .
Marketing: But is everyone's called functional requirements ?
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: No , they're all called something slightly different . Technical requirements and something something , yeah .
Marketing: Okay , so that's good .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: That's me done .
Project Manager: So , if you put them in there , we'll all be able to see them and refer to them if we need to .
Marketing: Okay , cool .
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} as to where we're going from here , you're going to look at the components concept .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: Yeah ? Whatever that means .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I guess I'll find out . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You'll be looking {vocalsound} you'll be looking at the user interface concept ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh something conceptual , yeah .
Project Manager: on something conceptual and you're watching trends to see how we go and surely voice recognition'll fall off the map or something that {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: um we'll keep keep our options op hmm ?
Industrial Designer: Wha what was it again that I was supposed to look into ? Con components , oh .
Project Manager: Components ,
User Interface: Hmm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah .
User Interface: Sorry , but um the next meeting um are we going to have it um right after lunch or {vocalsound} shall we prepare our {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No , we have we have {disfmarker} after lunch we have thirty minutes to ourselves to prepare ,
User Interface: To prepare , okay , yeah , that's good .
Project Manager: so that's fine , w before lunch we just have to complete the questionnaire and some sort of summary .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay ? Right on time .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Cool . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , {vocalsound} so you can {disfmarker} I guess we'll see you for lunch in a sec ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay , see you . | |
doc_141 | Project Manager: Hello .
Marketing: Hey guys .
User Interface: Hi .
Industrial Designer: Hi .
Project Manager: Hi .
Industrial Designer: I see my bunny is still standing .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: No one drawing it .
Project Manager: It's too beautiful .
User Interface: Yeah , true .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh I figured uh that much . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Too wicked .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: A minute please , my uh laptop is uh {disfmarker} oh , there it is , thank you . So welcome back . {vocalsound} At the functional design meeting um the plan is uh that uh each one of you , so not me but only you uh will uh present uh the the things you worked on uh the last uh half hour . I will uh take minutes and will put uh the minutes that I have uh at the end of the session in the shared folder . {vocalsound} Also the minutes of the previous session are also in the shared folder now , so you can read that uh now or afterwards . Um {vocalsound} uh I had an email from the from the management board
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: uh , I don't know if you a al also uh received it , but there were four points uh which uh I think are very important . First one is uh they think that uh teletext teletext becomes outdated uh and internet will be the the main uh focus . {vocalsound} Uh second one is also important uh , because it's one of the discussion points of the previous session . Uh the remote control shou should onl only be used for the television , so it uh not gonna it's not gonna be a multi-purpose remote control , so uh that's one thing to keep in mind .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh second , and I think that's important for the Marketing uh Expert , uh the current uh customers uh are in the age group group of uh forty years and older , but with this uh new remote uh they uh will uh {disfmarker} would like to reach uh a group uh younger than uh forty . Uh and uh I think to keep in mind , but not really uh for now is that they uh want the the the slogan and the and the logo uh to uh to be recognised more in the remote .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So , we have uh forty minutes , so I think uh not more than ten minutes uh uh per presentation uh each , and please uh use uh all the the the facilities so that you have either SMARTboards , the the Word files , what you uh {disfmarker} whatever you want . So uh Tim , can you start ? Yeah ?
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound} 'Kay , welcome . I have some uh new findings on uh Marketing Expert level ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: which I will show you . {vocalsound} The method I used was um giving orders to our usability lab uh to do a questionnaire . Um {vocalsound} one hundred respondents were involved and my marketing uh department generated a report with a lot of results . Um , these were a couple of findings , first page of three . Um , we have three audiences of {disfmarker} two audiences , {vocalsound} I'm sorry . Uh the first one , this scale , from sixteen to forty five {gap} age . Uh the second one is from sixty four {disfmarker} uh forty six to sixty five . Um , as you can see here , the market share for the first audience is about sixty percent {disfmarker} um sixty five . Uh second audience audience is uh thirty five percent . Mm {vocalsound} and some interests from the from the age groups , uh it seems like the young users of remote controls really like the fancy uh new technology stuff , like uh an L_C_D_ screen on the remote control , um speech recognition . I don't think that's uh really appropriate . Um , {vocalsound} and when you see uh the audience , the age is going up uh {disfmarker} Yeah , they don't really want it anymore , at least the new technologies . Second findings {vocalsound} out of the questionnaire um are the opinion {vocalsound} the opinions uh of the audience about current remote controls . First point is , seventy five percent of the users find the most repo remote controls very ugly , uh and eighty percent of the users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . So that's maybe something for the User Interface uh Designer . Okay , third findings . According to the frequency of use versus importance investigation , um {vocalsound} following buttons are most important . Um , I will tell something about the way this uh this test was , yeah , done . Um , {vocalsound} persons were asked uh what the buttons were uh they use most , how much an hour ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and uh in the second table the importance of those buttons . Um , when you multiply them , you get the {disfmarker} these three points . Switching channels , um yeah , that's pretty uh pretty normal , that's what you do with a remote control . Um the second , teletext , uh and the third , uh volume controls . Um , I think it's good uh that we know what the user want {disfmarker} wants , uh at least the these three points have to be uh very clear .
Project Manager: But it's strange that the the manage board {disfmarker} the management board said that the teletext will be uh outdated by the internet . So that that's strange .
Marketing: Yeah , okay . Yeah , okay , but uh at the moment uh teletext is {disfmarker} Yeah , th the best thing you can get uh on T_V_ , like getting information .
Project Manager: Yeah , okay . Yeah .
Marketing: So uh , when you ask people , what do they use , {vocalsound} they use teletext and not the internet on a remote control .
Project Manager: Okay . Yeah , okay .
Marketing: That's ridiculous . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: That's a ne i it {disfmarker} It's a new technology ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: but it's not incorporated right now . Okay , my personal preferences . Um , I think we should aim at the uh audience from sixteen to forty five . {vocalsound} Mm , first of all um it's the biggest share , the biggest audience , sixty five percent . Uh second , I think you will get the most revenue from i from it . Um , yeah , people from sixteen to forty five watch a lot of T_V_ , more than uh people who are el uh elder . Um {vocalsound} second point , {vocalsound} we have to impro improve the most used functions , as I said here , switching channels , teletext and volume controls . Third point um that came out of the uh {disfmarker} of the questionnaire , uh people used to uh get lost off the remote controller , so maybe it's an idea for us uh to design ex kind of placeholder uh on side of the , yeah , of the T_V_
Project Manager: Yeah , that's a cool idea .
Marketing: where you can put the the remote control in . {vocalsound} Um , that's about it , I think . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: When you mentioned uh improving functions , what uh what do you mean by that what what are you think about ?
Marketing: Uh not not the r not the functions ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh , the funtionability .
Marketing: but uh it came out that a lot of buttons weren't even used uh on a remote control . So you can have a remote control full of buttons , a hundreds hundreds of buttons , but if you don't use them , yeah it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Ah okay , so focusing more on the used buttons .
Marketing: Yeah , they have to be on it
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: j just to t to get it done if necessary ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but um the most used buttons uh have to be bigger or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Could you use perhaps uh one button for multiple functions , like example pressing it in longer makes it switch to an different function for example .
Marketing: Yeah , perhaps .
Industrial Designer: Thank you .
Marketing: Just for the minor functions perhaps .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , ma perhaps , just just an idea .
Marketing: Just to get less buttons on the remote control , to make it easier and quicker to learn .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah ? 'Kay , that's it .
Project Manager: Thank you , Tim . {vocalsound} Janus , can you uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah yeah , I'll go , sure . Right uh , I'll be uh explaining a bit about uh working design about uh the project . Well uh what I did was I dissected uh uh current remote controls and um I viewed how how they w looked , how they worked , uh what kind of components are involved , and how they are connected together . And uh after that I put up a scheme about how uh these things are organised and I'll show it to you in in a in a few seconds . And I'll explain a bit about uh how it works and how we could uh build one and why I think several possibilities uh that we discussed in the earlier meeting falls off . Um right . Uh well what I did was uh I I checked uh remote controls and the uh remote controls of today are all infrared , not like all probably know . And the thing about that is um the remote controls uh have to act as a T_V_ or uh a stereo or something , and those uh have a transmitter that's also focused on infrared , so if we want to uh build uh mm a remote control uh with Bluetooth for instance then uh the T_V_ should have Bluetooth too in order to communicate , so that would mean extra cost for the user and thus uh that's that wouldn't mean a a cheap uh remote control for us . So that's probably why most controls are still infrared . Furthermore they all have uh a a very simple structure , so that would probably uh mean lower costs and uh i that could mean for us a good thing uh 'cause uh well we we should be able to build a relatively cheap uh {gap} a cheap uh remote . Well uh as I mentioned ready , we have some Bluetooth {disfmarker} Well it may be possible , but uh I figured it wouldn't be possible in {disfmarker} within our budget , but that's not for me to decide , but that's maybe something for marketing to look into . F because uh {disfmarker} well my personal opinion is uh is not to do uh Bluetooth {gap} or or radio waves , {vocalsound} although {disfmarker}
Marketing: What do you think about uh incorporating Bluetooth or a radio uh receiver uh in the place-holder next to the T_V_ , connected to the T_V_ ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , actually I have t
Marketing: So it's in the wrong product .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , I actually {disfmarker} I figured that would be that would be rather nice , but then you'd still have the uh {disfmarker} the infrared function . So in in theory you'd actually just move the problem ,
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but uh what I did uh think about was when you mentioned about the uh the cup-holder , is why not uh introduce a speech function like where is the remote . If somebody says , where is the remote , then it goes uh beep uh beep beep beep or something ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I dunno , maybe uh maybe something to look into , I dunno uh what the cost {gap} that something like that would be . But it may be uh may be something to explore . Uh I'll I'll just explain a bit of the components . Uh first you have the energy source . The energy source would be a battery , simple uh battery uh that you can find anywhere . I figured that would be best , 'cause when the battery uh stops functioning uh we could just uh use {disfmarker} you could just go out and buy a new one . So we didn't {disfmarker} and we don't have to do all uh {disfmarker} to be too complicated about that . Uh the energy source is connected to the infrared button , but uh the infrared button uh works only via the chip and the subcomponent to uh the switch {disfmarker} there is a switch uh between these . When the switch is pressed in a w on this this case it switches a button , when a button is prush pushed in , uh a electric current goes through here , and in uh {disfmarker} immediately , a l a bulb lights up uh displaying to the user that something has happened . That's uh that's so the h user won't be um thinking , well uh did the button be pressed , w what happened uh . Or I press button but nothing's happening on the T_V_ , so is is something wrong or something . So that's just to uh to to explain the {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} to to uh make it clearer to the user . Uh w well the signal goes via chip that's translated into uh electric sig uh electronic signals and then it's processed and then it's sent to the infrared bulb where it will be uh uh received on the receiving end . And those uh interpreted by the device , well in this case the television . Uh well my personal preferences here , well we have to keep it simple . Not too many uh gadgets and functions , just like you said uh {disfmarker} well the most users n uh you have a lot of buttons and you u u use {disfmarker} you don't use them , so why why should we invent uh {disfmarker} w spend more time on those . Uh I I think we should stick by {disfmarker} with infrared transmitting and uh no receiving . So uh no input from the television . So I think we shouldn't be uh spending time on um teletext and st things like that , because when you uh want teletext on uh infrared you'd have to build in a receiver too , and so in order to receive the signals from uh what's on T_V_ and such . So I figure that would be uh spending too much money and time and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um , yeah , maybe another problem uh , I think current T_V_s can even send infrared .
Industrial Designer: Yes , but what should we uh s I I I f I agree with you , but should we spend money or {disfmarker} and time on building a receiver into the uh remote control ?
Marketing: Huh .
Industrial Designer: 'Cause that would be {disfmarker} I mean extra components , extra designs , um larger g uh remote control .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: These all uh all stuff that we have to take in account .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So I I {disfmarker} my personal opinion is no no no receiver at all . Um , well
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: we should uh look into the design and the functionability . Like I said , uh use one button for instance for m multiple functions , or well uh just hide the few buttons o of switching it open or something , the usual uh {gap} stuff . And uh don't overbuild , we shouldn't make a big uh remote control for simple functions , but we we should stick to the basics . So that was my uh my personal opinion . And that was my uh my presentation uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , thank you Janus .
User Interface: Okay . Yes ,
Project Manager: You do ?
User Interface: I can go ahead .
Project Manager: The last presentation . You have plenty of time ,
User Interface: Last presentation . Okay .
Project Manager: Tim and uh Janus don't uh talk to ten minutes ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so uh take your time .
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: If you take your time too long I will uh eventually uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: warn you .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well , I'm going to give a presentation abut some of the technical functions of these design and uh usability functions .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um what's my opinion about what's most important to combine the design , technical possibilities and the user friendliness in one , so if you um going to design a remote that looks good , that shouldn't weigh over the uh {disfmarker} if it's possible to make , of course , but also the user friendliness , so tha that's that's some of the main points . And another one is um the use um of many functions will will make it more difficult , so use as as little functions as possible or at least don't display them all at once on the same remote . If you have fifty functions you don't want fifty buttons uh t uh to be shown at the same time ,
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: 'cause when you visit an internet uh site you don't want fifty links uh to see , but maybe use a hierarch hierarchy uh structure . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And uh well one of the ideas was maybe uh use touch screen , but s I don't know in how far that is possible ,
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: since we are sticking to uh um infrared and and the remote cannot receive anything , but uh we might uh consider that . Um well , of course I I hope this is all clear to you . If you {disfmarker} you can use remote like this with all the functions , {gap} many functions , but {disfmarker} Well , your thumb is a little bigger than th it than this . You have to be very careful what you push ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: and um if you're looking for teletext you'll be uh searching for half an hour from uh um {disfmarker} yeah well , where is it ? Where the hell {disfmarker} he here I guess and , yeah , when you have to uh use something else . So just keep it simple , make clear buttons , easy to use . For example if you want to use a play and back and stop , that's very important . Um well this was because of our last discussion , if multiple machines are used , create easy switch between the machines , but um it's no longer uh applying . {vocalsound} Well yeah , I prefer to use it only for T_V_ and um n uh not to give too many options and and if possible , uh the buttons should give {vocalsound} a dr direct action , not first select {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh you you just said um uh you wanted to to combine more functions in one , so uh
User Interface: Yeah ,
Project Manager: you you want to keep it simple ,
User Interface: and so that's where the difficulties lie .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but I think that if you want to do that , then you can't escape the the fact that there will be buttons uh which give s uh more options than one .
User Interface: Yeah , this {disfmarker} so that's the thing you have to weigh against each other .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Do we want to use a few options and might not be so or original , or uh multi-purpose as we thought ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay .
User Interface: or do we want to use um many buttons .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: So um weighing those factors .
Marketing: Hmm {gap} it's maybe an option uh if you use an L_C_D_ {vocalsound} or a touch screen um , that in the middle are the the main keys , like displayed on the {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh yeah .
User Interface: The {gap} doesn't {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap} . Yeah , this ? No ? Yeah . {vocalsound} Something like that . Okay , just uh in the middle the general functions , like play , uh channel switching ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: and then uh at the top or at the bottom , some menus like uh settings or {disfmarker} that you can drop down .
User Interface: Yeah , but when all the questions I had {disfmarker} Do we want to use uh a menu display on the T_V_ ? Or um does have to f everything uh be in remotes ? 'Cause if you use a memory display on the T_V_ , you can simply push uh a more menu and then select the options you want to have and press okay .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Uh so that's my recommendation , if you use many options in one buttle {disfmarker} button , um display the menu on the T_V_
Marketing: Nah . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and don't um use combination of t of two buttons at the same time or pressing buttons three times for five seconds ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: is too complicated for most users .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think so too , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and that's partly because um uh a lot of T_V_s have different menus , and when you have a particular menu uh at your device , uh it could be that don't correspond to the menu what's actually on T_V_ .
User Interface: Yeah , that will be a problem .
Industrial Designer: Well
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: you d you have to {gap} keep in mind that uh several T_V_s uh don't even have a menu structure , or they have a very simple menu structure , so you have to keep in mind that not all uh d not {disfmarker} our remote won't be able to work on all televisions .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: And that would be uh a considerable problem .
User Interface: So if we have to stick with current technologies and uh um well yeah , the restrictions of what's uh is on the market today , um you should keep it s at this .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Use big clear buttons . Not too many . So maybe we'll loose a few option uh options , but I think i this is more important . Um {vocalsound} especially the important buttons , um if you want to switch channel , change your volume , uh use teletext , it uh it has to work at once and more advanced options may be put it s somewhere away on the remote , behind uh a little uh little thing or a touch screen .
Industrial Designer: Not embed Yeah , but then with something like a touch screen could {disfmarker} could make more menu up {disfmarker} pop up or something .
User Interface: And yeah , if you want to uh uh s put {gap} on stand-by or change the channel , that should always be possible to do . Not first change menu options or switch something .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Um , well yeah , as you already told , give some feedback . If the user is pushing a button he should know if the television or n at least remote is reacting and not just that the batteries may be low .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: And um , well , my conclusion is uh is uh less is more , keep it simple . So uh maybe we should just ease down on the functionality to uh to keep it accessible on t because you all know , if there are a lot of function {gap} on the the television , some you you'll never know uh and never use , and therefore it's uh important
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: if you want to change the volume or channel that is always accessible and easy and other functions um that are not so important {disfmarker} um well you {disfmarker} we should consider just not using them or at least putting them somewhere on the remote where they're not in the way for the for the most important functions .
Marketing: Yeah . Uh , I think the idea uh about uh touch screen um is very good . Um , because recently uh I saw news item on T_V_ um about uh new telephones uh for elder people . Um , they have like a touch screen with uh really big pictures on it like uh uh call uh hang-up , um and that's a big ad advantage I think , because one the one hand uh you make the remote control compatible for elder users just by uh scaling up the pictures or something .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: It's uh very visual intended . {vocalsound} What was I to say more ?
User Interface: Maybe that's an option . Um keep the primary buttons visible . Uh make a remote that fits easily in the hands
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: and for some design issues uh well , put a logo on it and maybe use it uh in some aesthetic uh aesthetic form .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But uh th the important buttons m make them always accessible and pushable and clear
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and maybe use a touch screen , or if that's uh will become too difficult just uh like televi some o older telephones use a l uh maybe it's possible to to flip them open and uh just expand the number of options that are normally visible . Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah okay , but but if you pick the the idea , the left idea
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: then what's gonna be displayed on the touch screen ?
Industrial Designer: The extra functions .
User Interface: The extra functions , you uh you just see a menu from system functions or teletext functions , and you just choose one ,
Marketing: Yeah , but l like menu functions or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: and then all all the options will become available
Marketing: Ah okay .
User Interface: and you just c s yeah t scroll through them .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Wouldn't it be better to make just one big touch screen , uh one one small uh touch screen uh applet
Marketing: Yeah , I think so .
Industrial Designer: and uh I'll just make um {disfmarker} uh let's say fifteen buttons on it , and uh we have three of those , uh actually just uh menus with sub-menus , with {disfmarker} or sub-items , sub-functions .
User Interface: Well um
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: then I'd like to make a proposal .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: If you make one big touch screen ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yes .
User Interface: use the same concept as here , keep the buttons always available
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: and use the lower part of the touch screen for the rest .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: like like the iPod idea that that we just saw .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You just have a f a few selected buttons and uh a few menus , and with this idea you could actually make uh several {disfmarker} you can also improve uh later on .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Uh uh I think that will be great .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: So you think it's will be better to have a t kinda total touch screen .
Marketing: Yeah , I think so .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I wou I would actually go for the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Jirun ?
User Interface: Okay , I agree , but I think it's very important that they always um make the same buttons accessible , so use just for special options a part of the touch screen .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , of course .
User Interface: And so um an elder designer picks up th the {disfmarker} of
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: an elder parents or grandparent picks up the remote from the little child and who's all in the systems functions , you'll have to have the possibility to turn off the T_V_ or to switch the channel without um well using all the menu structures to get back to the primary functions .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , I had another uh idea about maybe parental control . Um ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: like building in uh some kind of PIN code uh which allows uh parents to switch to all channels , uh
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: but children uh {disfmarker} if children don't don't know the PIN code , they can't switch to uh violent uh channels or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah wh Is that possible to use or no ?
Industrial Designer: That is possible , that {disfmarker} well that actually depends on the television ,
Marketing: Th there's just {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , yeah well ,
Industrial Designer: but I think {disfmarker} I figure that would be {disfmarker}
User Interface: does it have to depend on the television ?
Marketing: Ju just a simple log-in , something like that .
Industrial Designer: Well ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: y you s you see the fi uh thing is when you buy a remote , you you set the uh channels , the the channels are different on each te television ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: they aren't set in a preset order ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so uh if you uh lock on a remote , uh let's say channel fifteen , well channel fifteen on this television is different than channel fifteen on the other television ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah , okay .
Industrial Designer: so that would be uh that would be actually the main concern .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Well , I think that he means that um maybe by some option uh {disfmarker} make sure that um remote control and the T_V_ match , and then after that you can um use some s insert some passwords as being apparent that the children cannot use this uh {disfmarker} change the settings of the T_V_ , like colour and then volume
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , th that kind of stuff , but maybe um if you log in first as a parent um , you address the the channels
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: and like uh oh , that's channel fifteen , that's uh vi violent channel ,
User Interface: Oh , something like that .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: uh m my ki my kids uh {disfmarker} I don't want my kids to watch that ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: then you set the priority to only parents ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Well b but make it a separate option in the menu ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that would b
Marketing: for example . But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , that .
User Interface: so that it's it's dif dis displayed from uh {disfmarker} displayed here ,
Marketing: Yeah okay , but but {disfmarker} yeah , that's just
User Interface: so uh parents uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: that's an a an added feature .
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay . But let's not uh go too wide about the {disfmarker} those things , that's that why we're here .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , {vocalsound} th th those things are nice . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's it's a nice idea , but I think that's we wel {vocalsound} later in the stage . I've one little question about um a total touch screen or uh um a p
Marketing: Partial .
Project Manager: yeah , a partial , uh because I think uh elderly people may be uh not used to uh a touch screen , so they want the the the normal functions like teletext , volume changing , um uh to be uh , yeah , kinda traditionals
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: uh and uh {vocalsound} the the the the other functions , the more difficult functions uh to be uh maybe on the touch screen ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: but to keep this as uh normal as possible , to keep it accessible .
Marketing: Yeah , but but if you display it on L_C_D_ screen with r r really big numbers
User Interface: Yeah , you can de display it on the on the old style .
Marketing: that's just as e just as easy .
Industrial Designer: Uh . I I do {disfmarker}
User Interface: You can display actual buttons on the touch screens .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah , that's true , that's true .
Industrial Designer: Uh I do agree ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: because well , it's just not the same when you touch a touch screen
User Interface: Yeah , okay .
Industrial Designer: or when you touch a button , but well we have to look at what's our target uh audience .
Marketing: Yeah , it's different .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: W we are aiming for younger people
Project Manager: Yeah , that's true , yeah .
Industrial Designer: and they they chose {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , age b below forty .
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah yeah , yeah , that's a good point . Yep .
Industrial Designer: So that's that's probably uh a {disfmarker}
Marketing: And th those young people , yeah . Y you saw it in my marketing report , they like the new fancy stuff ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . They like the fancy stuff , yeah . That's true .
Marketing: so {disfmarker} A touch screen , like Microsoft al already developed something like that for uh uh multi-media applications .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: I th I think we can do that too .
Project Manager: Mm {disfmarker} Yeah . Okay , as you can see uh the minutes from the second meeting , this one , are uh {vocalsound} are done .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Done . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh I've uh added the {disfmarker} this uh four things from the management board just to keep in mind .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um each time I uh I had a sort of uh summary on what you told and uh what you personal think . Uh so that can be uh can be read out . Uh a f a few things I uh I noticed uh were um {disfmarker} Moment . Ooh . Uh th the the main points in uh this uh uh in this uh meeting is I think uh how uh it's going to look uh with uh {disfmarker} we must keep it simple , but have the opportunity to uh have more options and have them uh hidden or something , so they don't {disfmarker} uh you don't have a big uh thing full of uh buttons or uh {disfmarker} um and uh the point that uh you uh wanna use one uh controller uh for uh uh hypothetically {vocalsound} each television , so you must uh the the the the functions , know , like the menus or the the parental control must be all uh by the {disfmarker} done by the remote control and not by the television . I think that's the point what uh
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: we discussed .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah , some of them . The menus uh are not identical for all th for all T_V_s , so you have to display it on one uh T_V_ .
User Interface: Well you can use um {disfmarker} when you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh how do you call it , s um synchronized , the um remote and the T_V_ ,
Marketing: Yeah , but that's not possible .
User Interface: then there's always , there are always uh possibilities to change the colour and the brightness and the volume
Marketing: Mm-hmm , mm yeah .
User Interface: and um well maybe we can look out if there's options that the remote um in its memory can see what kinda T_V_ it is , from {disfmarker} ah , it's a Philips , this and this and that , and then give the options that are capable {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} capable from the t
Project Manager: Yeah , but you have uh uh an {disfmarker}
Marketing: Add th that that's an opportunity {gap} .
Project Manager: yeah , but you have an international market range , so you have I think a big range of {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well there are universal d um um remotes
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: and they all have a functionality for all the T_V_s , uh so this wouldn't be a extra feature to incorporate the men menus of these .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But they {disfmarker}
Marketing: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And it's not too complex to do it .
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Well they uh they all have to be programmed to fit your T_V_
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and that that is bit of a tricky job .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I actually use one of those when {disfmarker} They are they are kinda kinda troublesome , but but the thing is whe when you uh start uh building something like this you have to build a receiver into the uh t into the remotes , because uh in order for the remote to process something from the T_V_ , like uh to synchronise and you have to send and receive ,
User Interface: Yeah . Well {disfmarker} Yeah . Mm-hmm . Oh um mo
Industrial Designer: and that's well {disfmarker}
Marketing: No no no .
User Interface: no , you can just say uh the c
Marketing: {vocalsound} He he he he me he means just just one other thing .
Project Manager: Just build it in .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Uh , with the current remote controls , the universal ones , um you have to press {disfmarker} yeah , you have to press a code for T_V_ .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yes .
User Interface: In codes , y you you get a b a book with codes . You look up , I have a Philips H_ fifty five
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: and it says press code four five five
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Oh , okay , yeah , sure , uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: and you press code four five five on the {disfmarker} uh in the remote
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah yeah .
User Interface: and it displays all your uh menu options .
Industrial Designer: Oh , yeah yeah , sure , that would be possible , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Now we uh just connect uh the T_V_ type uh to a set of options , in {disfmarker} just just in the memory ,
User Interface: Memory in the in the remote .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Profiles .
Marketing: so that if you {disfmarker} yeah , like profile , so that if you uh touch in like uh one four one zero kind of T_V_ uh
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: the memory uh pops up the options .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , that would be possible . Yeah , sure .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: I th don't think that's uh {disfmarker} that takes a lot of storage space or some just varia variables .
Industrial Designer: No , that wouldn't be uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , well um
Industrial Designer: Yeah , a few variables .
User Interface: if you look at the um manuals from universal uh remotes , there are maybe um three four hundreds T_V_s at maximum . If you have all of them , all the old and new T_V_s summed up ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: so uh I think uh it is possible {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Ah it is . It is definitely po
Marketing: But , on the other hand on the other hand , uh if you have a remote and buy a new T_V_ that isn't incorporated in the remote {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We have five minutes to go .
User Interface: Yeah . Well then you have to buy a new one , it's very good for marketing
Marketing: New remote ?
User Interface: Maybe , or an update , software update .
Marketing: A firmware upgrade or something ,
User Interface: Firmware update , you say .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , firmware upgrade .
Marketing: but from where ? Ah . Maybe w
Industrial Designer: That's maybe the cup holder .
Marketing: No m may no ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: maybe we can incorporate some kind of uh U_S_B_ or a firewire connection , so that you can uh connect it to the P_C_ and download the newest firmware from uh from the internet .
Industrial Designer: Well , not everybody has uh has uh a P_C_ at home . Well the most most people have ,
User Interface: Well , at {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but not not everybody
User Interface: uh you can go back to the shop
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker}
User Interface: and uh they {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: like a s kind of service centre .
User Interface: Yeah , ser o
Industrial Designer: Yeah , maybe something like service cen
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: and they can download it for you .
Industrial Designer: Or you could {disfmarker} well you could s actually look at the place-holder you talked about earlier ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and you could probably uh make a connection to uh an telephone line or a internet connection .
User Interface: Yeah . Well already digital information is sent t to the the standards , T_V_ uh connections ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: you can see what's uh programme is on on the new uh channels , so maybe j they {disfmarker} we can send that information along with standard T_V_ uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well then then it's be uh back to the building a receiving uh {disfmarker} well uh if it's actually worth it to build it in ,
User Interface: Receiving . Oh yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: we could actually look at {disfmarker} into it ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} I dunno , it it would be uh bringing more costs {gap} uh with with it
User Interface: Difficult . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: I I think it's uh most cheap or cheapest to just do the updates uh at the service centre or at the shop .
User Interface: Yeah yeah , uh s I think some {disfmarker} I think it's good idea , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that would be probably best , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Like when you when you buy a T_V_ you just ask {disfmarker} well I'll {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's it's it's not a lot of work , just one uh docking station where you put it in ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: press start , bling bling , updated .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that would be best , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} You don't buy a T_V_ every week , new teev so .
User Interface: Okay , let's uh save this in the meanwhile uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No no . Exactly , so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um m for which one are we going ? {gap} My mistake .
Marketing: Let's vote .
User Interface: That one or uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , my vote goes out to the right {gap} .
User Interface: Your vote and your {disfmarker}
Marketing: My vote too .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And your vote ?
User Interface: Well , I was uh doubting about which one to take , but uh you've convinced me that uh if you di display buttons about the same as they would look on a normal um remote all elderly people will know what to do .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: And also like a clapping uh li like device that uh pops open .
User Interface: Opens up is too difficult
Industrial Designer: Flips open .
User Interface: or uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh too difficult , um maybe uh it's easier to break it .
Project Manager: N yeah .
User Interface: Break it , I don't get {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , th th th that i uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: It's very sensitive .
User Interface: Oh so {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Like my telephone , it's uh it's sensitive too .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay well uh it's almost at the end . So we have now a lunch break , finally ,
Marketing: Ah .
Project Manager: yeah . {vocalsound} Uh after the lunch break uh it's back to uh individual work , once again uh thirty minutes . Uh I will put my minutes {disfmarker} uh I have updated them so uh s they're updated in the shared folder too .
Marketing: Thirty minutes ?
Project Manager: Thirty minutes , the {disfmarker}
Marketing: How minutes ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Failure . Uh {vocalsound} uh the specifi uh specific instructions for the next uh meeting you will {disfmarker} all will receive uh at the uh the the email . I don't think I can uh say much about it , so uh uh wait for your email and uh hopefully you get it done uh in the in the thirty minutes , and I w will see you after the lunch break and the thirty minutes .
Marketing: One question ,
Project Manager: Yeah ?
Marketing: uh how late do we have to get back {disfmarker} be back here ?
Project Manager: Uh well uh thirty minutes .
User Interface: A quarter to one maybe ?
Project Manager: Uh , yeah .
Marketing: Thirty minutes lunch break ?
Project Manager: Thirty minutes lunch break , yeah . Oh . Forty five ?
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: I thought forty five .
Project Manager: Uh then would it be uh one o'clock .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah . Okay .
Project Manager: Or we we ask our personal coach . Okay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Thank you . Thank you , uh that was a very uh good session I think ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: we uh we {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , is it possible to store this on the share documents or what {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , me too .
Project Manager: Uh ye well {disfmarker}
Marketing: Save as .
Project Manager: Yeah , because uh all uh things are uh stored in smart board dot uh X_D_K_
Marketing: Yeah , v
Project Manager: and that's in {disfmarker}
Marketing: But but you can open a {disfmarker} from your pr from your laptop .
User Interface: 'Kay , save it as an image on the res
Marketing: Yeah , maybe . Save as .
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: Export . Maybe not export function .
Marketing: No . Export .
Project Manager: Well I can I can uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Export H_T_M_L_ .
User Interface: No , and use an image if possible .
Marketing: Huh , image ?
User Interface: J_ PEG .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} G_ {disfmarker} yeah , J_ PEG .
User Interface: J_ PEG . Yeah , it's better
Marketing: Paper size A_ four . Uh screen size . In this directory .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: N oh .
User Interface: Oh yeah , it's not connected to the
Project Manager: You all uh have the the questionnaire again about uh the after work .
User Interface: to our P_C_s .
Marketing: No ? Yeah , it is connected .
User Interface: It's connected ?
Marketing: Yeah , I think so .
Project Manager: Deskt Huh . No .
Industrial Designer: To room . I'll just uh saved in my documents .
Marketing: Oh . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound} in my own uh {disfmarker} in my own messenger .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Project documents , yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: It gives the na Oh . Yes .
Project Manager: Okay ,
Industrial Designer: Okay , nice .
Project Manager: thank you .
User Interface: The questionnaire , fill in {disfmarker} uh we fill out d after lunch or uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh well , it's it's simply filling {disfmarker} oh no , it's uh it's also filling out {disfmarker} no , I'd do it after lunch I think .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Aye , cheers .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I'm hungry , so do it after lunch .
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you all .
Marketing: Thank you .
Project Manager: You're welcome .
User Interface: We can leave the P_C_ on I think , yeah and return to the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , of course .
Project Manager: Yeah . Well I bring it to my uh personal room .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , bring to {disfmarker} I gotta bring it home .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: To my exave executive {disfmarker}
Project Manager: My executive uh big room with the with the panting . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} A big office .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Aye . Yeah . Okay .
Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound} {gap}
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} | |
doc_142 | Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I have received apologies for absence from Jack Sargeant, and I'm very pleased to welcome Vikki Howells, who is substituting for Jack this morning. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our last evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill, and I'm really pleased to welcome back Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, who is deputy director of the children and families division; and Emma Gammon, who is the lawyer working on the Bill. So, thank you all for coming. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions because we've got lots of ground that we want to cover, and the first questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Good morning. Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Deputy Minister. Of those individuals who responded to our written consultation in a personal capacity, nearly 70 per cent do not support this Bill. We also heard a clear message from the parents we met last week who oppose this Bill that, as parents, they understand clearly the difference between child abuse and a light smack from a loving parent. How would you like to respond to that?
Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Janet, for that question. I think I'd like to start by saying that child abuse is not the issue that the Bill is trying to address. What the Bill is trying to do is prohibit all forms of physical punishment, and that is in order to protect children's rights and to ensure that children have the same protection from physical punishment as adults. But I do understand that people have different views, and that's why this process has been so important—for us to hear what your views are and what parents' views are. I know that, often, people use different euphemisms really to make light of physical punishment. I've heard expressions used such as a 'light smack' or a 'loving smack' or a 'tap', and really there can be different interpretations of what is a 'light smack', what is a 'loving smack', and that doesn't really cover the issue of the frequency of such actions being taken. But I would say that, however mild it seems to be, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child recognises that any physical punishment of children, however minor, is incompatible with their human rights, and why should a big person hit a little person? That's been the sort of mantra, really, that has taken me through supporting this legislation—that it just seems wrong to me that there is something in the law that could mean that there could be an excuse for that happening. I believe we shouldn't have anything in the law that defends the physical punishment of children, and I don't think we should be defining acceptable ways of hitting or punishing children, because I think it does send a confused message to children. It says, 'It's okay for me to hit you, but don't you hit anybody else.' I think it causes confusion. So, I'm confident that updating the law will make it much clearer for parents and people working with children—and, of course, I'm sure, as you'll have heard from the evidence you've taken, that people who work with children are overwhelmingly in support of this legislation, and the representative surveys that we've carried out show support for the Bill's principles.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Last week, during the workshop, a few parents—predominantly all of them, actually—said that they use a gentle tap or smacking as part of a toolkit of ways to deal with challenging behaviour or, sometimes, for the safety of the child or, indeed, to carry out the parenting of a child. How do you intend to work with parents going forward, given the finite resources that social care and social services have? I know from the responses we've received to the consultation that parents themselves who have to parent 24 hours a day, seven days a week, they are really, on the scale of things, very upset about this. How do you intend to try and get your message across to those parents on removing what they consider to be part of their toolkit when raising children? How do you intend to deal with that aspect?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, I want to say, as I've said in most evidence sessions, that I completely accept that bringing up children is hard. It's very difficult; many of us have done it and we know how tough it can be. But we don't think that there is any place for physical punishment in bringing up children. There's a whole range of other ways that you can help parents bring up children, and advice you can give them of different methods to use. But, the clear message of this Bill is that we don't want any physical punishment; we don't think it's the right thing to do, and we believe that we are supported by many people in that view.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: You've got other questions, Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Oh, yes. Several consultation responses refer to statistics from Sweden, which they say show that child-on-child violence actually increased by 1,791 per cent between 1984 and 2010, following the ban on physical punishment in 1979. What is your view on these figures and how can we be certain that this Bill won't lead to other long-term negative outcomes in Wales?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, I'm aware of the debate surrounding the interpretation of the different statistics from Sweden. What's happened, really, in the academic research is that different academics are focused on different figures to support their views, and the methodological ways of doing it makes it quite difficult to have causation. I was very encouraged that a recent study of 88 countries concluded that if a country prohibits corporal punishment, the result is association with less youth violence, and this is one of the largest cross-national analyses of youth violence, with more than 400,000 participants. So, there is other evidence, very widespread evidence, which looks at a whole range of people, that is in contrast to the Swedish evidence. But, evidence in this field is mixed and we have considered a wide range of research and reviews, but ultimately the decision is one that is based on our commitment to children's rights.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Do you want question 3?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I can do it, yes. The Bill's explanatory memorandum says that 'there is no definitive evidence that "reasonable" physical punishment causes negative outcomes for children'. However, we have heard from Equal Protection Network Cymru that international evidence could not be clearer and that they found the Wales Centre for Public Policy's report, on which the explanatory memorandum is based, very confusing and very frustrating, and that it didn't tie in with what they knew. How would you respond to those viewpoints?
Julie Morgan AM: We were very keen to get as balanced research as we possibly could, and we didn't want to just put forward views that we thought agreed with our point of view. So, we were trying to give a balanced point of view, but we did commission the Wales Centre for Public Policy to do an independent literature review and we're honestly reporting to you what they said. But they did make it clear, again, which I think I've said in previous evidence sessions, that all physical punishment, under all conditions, is potentially harmful to children. And certainly, there is no peer-reviewed research that says that physically punishing a child is going to improve things, has favourable outcomes. So, I understand what Equal Protection Network Cymru are saying, because there is a lot of very strong evidence, but we're giving you the evidence that we had from the research that we commissioned.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We've got some questions now from Suzy on implementation.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I've just got a couple of questions on this balance between the steps that will be needed to implement this Bill and the impact that it'll actually have. You've probably heard in evidence that we've received that there are still some concerns out there about how agencies might address malicious reporting; some detail about how the public interest test might be applied further along the line; what's going to happen with out-of-hours provision from social services, and so on. There are still, from our perspective, quite a few things that are unknown about the effect on our public services in particular of the implementation of this Bill. Would you agree that perhaps we should know a little bit more about that before we proceed with supporting the Bill?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, it's very difficult, bringing in this legislation that hasn't been done before. It's very difficult to gauge the impact, and we've covered that, I know, in previous discussions. But I think it's very important to say that we are not creating a new offence. The Bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault. And I think it's an interesting point to make that, in Ireland, they introduced similar legislation through an amendment to a Bill, and had no detailed preparation for bringing in the Bill, and in fact there's no evidence that this has caused any difficulties, and no significant negative impacts or increase in workload. But in any case, we have our implementation group, which is going to address many of these issues. This met on 14 May. That was the first meeting. You see, I think we do have to take a balance between assuming this Bill is going to go through and what we can actually do. We can't presume that the Assembly will accept this Bill, so we have to be staged in what we do. But we had the first strategic implementation group on 14 May, and we had representatives from the police, the police and crime commissioners, the Crown Prosecution Service, the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru, the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, the Welsh Local Government Association, the legal profession and the third sector. They're all there, and they're all very keen to make this legislation work and to look at the implications of it. I'd just like to say how grateful I am for all those organisations giving their time and commitment. They've set up four work streams, looking at parenting advice and support; data collection, evaluation and monitoring; operations, procedures and processes; and out-of-court disposals and diversions. These groups will be taking forward this work and will be looking at many of those issues that you've mentioned, and will also be updated on the progress of the awareness strategy that we will be bringing in. I'm really confident that the legislation will be implemented in a very practical and workable way, because we do have the commitment of all these agencies, and there's been a huge amount of preparation done in the Welsh Government to prepare for this in a way that, I have to say, hasn't been done in some of the other countries—as I mentioned, in Ireland. So, as much preparation as could be done is being done and has been done, but we really now see that the implementation group is taking forward all these issues, and obviously those agencies that are taking part in the implementation group are, on the whole, in support of the principles of this Bill.
Suzy Davies AM: Well, thank you for that, Minister, but the way I look at this is that you've already said that, if this Bill passes—and it will pass; it's in enough manifestos to pass, so the question is what type of Bill is going to pass—and if there is a gap of, let's say, two years before anything is implemented, and the implementation group is doing the work that you've described—and we're very relieved to hear that—why is this Bill being introduced now when that implementation group hasn't really come up with a strategy that could help persuade people about what implementing this Bill would look like in real life? You're asking the Welsh public to take a bit of a chance on this.
Julie Morgan AM: I think we have, as far as possible, looked at international evidence where this legislation has been introduced. It's different for different countries, so I know it's difficult to get anything that's absolutely linked. But I don't agree that it's a bit of a chance, really. I think we are preparing very well and very carefully. As the team who have been working on this have worked through the preparation for the Bill, lots of issues have arisen as they've done that, and so you have to do that, I think, alongside the actual practical implications with the groups that are coming together, and I think the point at which we've done that is probably just about right, really.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. I hope this isn't going on to somebody else's questions, but accepting what you say, would you then be open to accepting amendments to the face of the Bill that would clarify the position for the Welsh public on certain things that may be of concern to them, which have been fed through to us? I'm not suggesting anything specific, but—.
Julie Morgan AM: No, no. I mean, the position is that it is a very simple, one-clause Bill. We want to keep it as simple as possible, but I'm certainly prepared to consider any issues that come up, and I think that's been the case all along. Although our preference is to keep it simple.
Suzy Davies AM: I understand that. It's just what's going to work as a bit of law here, isn't it? And then just finally from me, and you've made the point to a degree, that, of course, not all countries are like Wales. If we look at Ireland, and New Zealand's the one we've been looking at an awful lot, which are the most similar, their work hasn't really been in place for that long, and one of the things that, I think, you're going to need to be able persuade us of is that if the culture change to which we've already referred is going in one way anyway, and if it continues to go in that direction, that this Bill will have had a causal effect. I'm trying to establish whether the culture change is going to happen anyway, whether or not we pass this legislation.
Julie Morgan AM: Well, it does look as if a culture change is happening in any case, but the culture change will never really move, I think, as most of us want it, if there is legislation that does appear to condone the use of physical punishment, and having this reasonable punishment in law means that happens. So, I think, passing the legislation by itself will certainly not do everything—
Suzy Davies AM: No. And you'll be aware that this is to go with it. I get that, but—
Julie Morgan AM: You've got to have—. And I think the research has all shown you've got to have an awareness campaign running along with it. That is shown. And in the other countries we've looked at, I don't think an awareness campaign was actually carried out because we are planning a really big awareness campaign because we think it's absolutely fair to the Welsh public, as you said, that they absolutely know what we're doing and everybody's aware of it. So, I think it is—.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, can I just finish—?
Julie Morgan AM: I know the point you're making. You're saying that this would happen in any case, maybe.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm suggesting it.
Julie Morgan AM: But if you've got a bit of legislation there on the Bill, it will always mean that for a very minority group of parents, they will feel that they have got the right to use physical punishment against their child, and I just think it's something we should get rid of. I think it's an anachronism and it's something we should—. And I think Wales has been very strong on children's rights. We've got rid of physical punishment in schools, child minders, regulated care settings. And, of course, the other point that I don't think we say enough about is that it's not just parents; it's people in loco parentis who are working in leisure centres or religious establishments or any of those unregulated settings who also have this defence. So, it's last bit in the jigsaw, really, to have it quite clear that we want to treat our children with respect and dignity and I think this will move us towards that.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's the argument you've made before. I think what I was trying to get to is: how are we going to prove that this piece of legislation has worked effectively? It's about the data capture, I guess.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes.
Suzy Davies AM: What are you going to do to make sure that you acquire evidence in the future to show that this has worked, or potentially not worked? I'd be surprised if that was the case, but—. Because, of course, that has an implication then on the resources for the various people you'll be asking to collect the data.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I think that's very important because we need to know what is the effect of the legislation we'll be bringing in. So, we will be having ongoing evaluation, we will be bringing in an independent body to evaluate. We have got ongoing monitoring and we've got ongoing monitoring surveys looking at what are the views of the public. So, yes—
Suzy Davies AM: It'll be directly linked to the Bill, then, rather than that broad culture change.
Julie Morgan AM: The monitoring, asking the views of the public, is generally about issues related to the Bill. The views of parents about whether this legislation—
Suzy Davies AM: Sorry, I don't want to labour this point.
Julie Morgan AM: And awareness. How aware they are.
Suzy Davies AM: Basically, we need a question, 'Has this Bill stopped you smacking your child?' That's the core question. So, phrase it differently, yes?
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Well, we are in the surveys asking how many people feel that they do smack their child, but this is any physical punishment, actually, not just smacking—
Suzy Davies AM: And it's for the future, not for now.
Julie Morgan AM: —and how many, actually, are doing that. And it is consistently going down, as you said.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I don't want to take it any further.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on to explore some of the issues around social services now with questions from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Morning, Minister. When the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru came in, they were saying to us that they would encourage people to report any instances, anything that they see around somebody smacking a child. That leads on to the question about whether in fact social services, then, would change their thresholds for intervention if there were more cases being referred to them. Are you fairly confident, are you certain, that that wouldn't happen, or do you think there is a danger that social services might actually say, 'Well, actually, if we're getting all these referrals, we need to think again about when and if we intervene', and the thresholds could become a bit lower?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, as you know, social services already receive and investigate reports of children being physically punished—any sort of range of physical punishment—and they use standard procedures to determine how to proceed, but that's done on a case-by-case basis; it's made on the individual case element. And, of course, there is a distinction between reasonable punishment and child neglect or abuse. And if this legislation is enacted, a significant proportion of the incidents of physical punishment will not require any response under the child protection procedures, and we do not expect the threshold of significant harm to change. And I know you took evidence from the ADSS, and I know Sally Jenkins gave evidence, who is one of the lead practitioners, and I understood she said: 'In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that's likely to happen.' So, I think—
Dawn Bowden AM: So, it's the threshold for intervention that's the key, really, isn't it, rather than—?
Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they don't see that changing.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, they don't see that changing.
Julie Morgan AM: No, no. And we don't see that changing.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. The police, when they came in to give evidence, talked about the need for the multi-agency safeguarding hubs. And what we also heard is that it's a bit inconsistent across the country. And I think you acknowledged that as well. Do you think the implementation of the Bill, and its effectiveness, is going to be dependent on us having consistently effective multi-agency safeguarding hubs right the way across the country?
Julie Morgan AM: No. The effective implementation of the Bill does not depend on MASHs, as we call them for short, because bodies, social services, already work closely with the police on a day-to-day basis, really, and they have indicated their willingness to do so, and there are already well-established mechanisms in place that enable this joint working to take place. I know that the MASHs are only in certain areas, and I know that it's—. I think they're probably very good to have, actually, and very good to help the work, but it's certainly not dependent on them.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, but it would be something that you would be wanting to see developed, that eventually we would have these MASHs right across the country?
Julie Morgan AM: At the moment, there are three MASHs in the south Wales police force, and one pilot MASH in the Gwent police force, but they don't operate in exactly the same way. And I know that other areas have considered having MASHs, but haven't actually brought any in. And a multi-agency strategic group, which is led by South Wales Police, has been set up, and it will consider the effectiveness of MASH arrangements in Wales, so it's very possible there will be more MASHs, but I want to reiterate that we're not dependent on MASHs in order to have the close working. But they're welcome—very welcome.
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because the key point from the police's point of view, I think, was that they provide a single point of contact, so it's very simple, isn't it? It's a single point of contact, and I think they were quite concerned that having that single point of contact might actually reduce the level of unnecessary police prosecutions—well, the police don't prosecute, but charges and so on. So, it was just a point that they were raising.
Julie Morgan AM: I think they are very effective and very much to be welcomed, but it's certainly not essential.
Dawn Bowden AM: Sorry, Karen.
Karen Cornish: I was just going to say that it's probably worth saying that looking at how agencies work together will be one of the things, again, that will be looked at very carefully on the task and finish group, looking at processes and procedures. We're very alert to the fact that there are different organisations, different services, and that bringing them together, working in as consistent a way as possible, is really, really important. As the Minister has said, social services, the police and others are already committed to working together, and, actually, we just want to make sure that we develop those working practices in the best way possible, recognising that not every area will have a MASH, and reiterating, again, what the Deputy Minister has said—that the effectiveness of the Bill is not predicated on a MASH in every area, but it is important that all those organisations do work together in a consistent and appropriate way.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. Thank you very much. The other response that we've received is from social workers. And they've talked about the fact that the social worker's workload is already very stretched, and you'll be aware of that, Minister. And I think they were getting a little bit concerned about whether a whole raft of new cases are going to land on what is an already extremely heavy workload, and how effectively they could deal with that. Would you say that those concerns, in terms of the impact of this Bill, are unfounded, or are we just saying that this is an unknown quantity at this stage, and we're going to have to wait and see?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, if I can just pay tribute to the work that social workers do.
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, absolutely.
Julie Morgan AM: Because, obviously, they’re going to be essential to the successful implementation of this Bill. I was a social worker myself, so I’m very happy to pay tribute to them. [Laughter.] But they do do a hard job, which isn’t always recognised, I think, by the public. So, I do take this point very seriously, but, obviously, the professionals who have given evidence—many of them have said they don’t see there being a big rise of referrals. Jane Randall, National Independent Safeguarding Board—I think she came to you—said: 'there's no expectation that there's going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals…I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources.' I mean, there may be an increase in reporting of incidents, initially, maybe from individuals in the community and organisations such as schools. And I think it could have an impact on the initial stages of social services activity, which I think others—I think Sally Jenkins said that maybe there’d be an increase, a small increase, at the beginning. But as we expect the awareness raising and the ongoing support that we’ll be giving to parents—we do feel that the incidents of physical punishment will be falling over time. And we don’t really see that there will be an increase. But I know that social workers are stretched, and are hard-pressed—and I think that was some of the evidence given to you by the British Association of Social Workers. But I think it’s important to remember that they are also very strongly in support of us carrying out this legislation. But it is important to look at the realities and the practicalities. So, we’re going to work very closely with social services—obviously, key members of our implementation group—and we will collect relevant data for a period before the actual implementation, in order to get a baseline. We want a baseline, and we are working with a small number of social services to try to get the baseline of where it is, and to see what happens when the Bill is implemented. The evidence from other countries is that they certainly have not been overwhelmed. There have been reports in New Zealand that they have not been overwhelmed, and I mentioned Ireland earlier. So, I don’t think, really, we have to fear that social services would be overwhelmed, but we must be prepared, and we must get this data and monitor it closely.
Dawn Bowden AM: Keep it monitored.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes.
Dawn Bowden AM: And I guess things will level out in due course. And social services clearly having to make judgments every day—they will be making those judgments quite quickly and turning them around.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes.
Dawn Bowden AM: The Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service, when they spoke to us, also had—there was a similar kind of concern raised. They did say that they felt that they probably did have adequate resources to support the Bill. But do you think there is any danger at all that it could divert CAFCASS staff, if we have a high volume of reporting, particularly given that we’ve got a 26-week limit in which to deal with those cases? Is that something that causes you any concern at this stage?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, CAFCASS are confident that they can deal with the cases that they have. As you know, there's been a big increase in the numbers that CAFCASS is dealing with already, and they have managed to very successfully cope with the demand. So, I've got every confidence that they will be able to cope with it.
Dawn Bowden AM: Because they were basically just saying that it's unpredictable at this stage, weren't they, so—?
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. It is unpredictable. Our best views are that it will not—.
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, because they were talking about the fact that no assessment had been made about the risk of malicious reporting. We talked about that in a number of sessions with the police and so on. So, I think their biggest concern was more about the rise in looked-after children and the impact on that in terms of their workload, and it was just a question of whether this would potentially divert any resources, I guess.
Julie Morgan AM: I think, in terms of the malicious reporting, obviously that is something that happens a lot now and it is is likely that, perhaps—. I think they felt that, in existing cases, this might be another element that should be brought in, but they seemed, in my discussions, fairly confident. I know they appeared before the committee, and they are coping very well. But, obviously, another area we are very concerned about is the rise in the number of looked-after children, and that's somewhere we want to try to do what we can to bring that down.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just before Suzy comes in with a supplementary—CAFCASS didn't come to the committee, they've submitted—
Julie Morgan AM: They sent a letter—that's right. Yes, sorry about that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Just very quickly, because I don't want to spend a lot of time on this: isn't it going to be true that any increase in workload for social services or schools or whoever is going to depend on reporting rising? Where do you see the likely rise in reporting taking place? Will it be members of the public or is it going to be professionals who feel that this is something that they can't ignore from now on?
Julie Morgan AM: well, I think it would be mixed. I don't have any view or where it particularly would come from, because if there are any reports that go into agencies now about children being physically punished in any way—I think they investigate those already now. But I suppose members of the public might report if they see any physical punishment going on. They would be made much more aware, we hope, by the legislation—so, that may happen. But I think, in schools, if there is physical punishment reported by a child, the schools would report it in any case. But I think it's likely that there will be a small rise.
Suzy Davies AM: I was just curious about where you thought the main source would be—
Julie Morgan AM: I can't really be definitive about that.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. The next questions are from Siân Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: The Bill, in essence, is a simple one, of course, is it not? But what it does is provide a useful discussion on what good parenting is and what discipline methods are the most effective—that is, discipline methods that parents can use rather than physical punishment. Do you think, therefore, that there's a need to invest much more in programmes to do with parenting and in support services for families in terms of parenting, and that as part of an early intervention strategy that's more co-ordinated and robust than what we have at present?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, we are developing the Bill as part of a much wider package of support for children and their parents, which, of course, is already in place. This obviously includes the 'Parenting. Give it time' campaign, which aims to help parents do the best job that they can by providing positive tips on parenting and information. And we're already preparing now to update that, because, of course, that only goes up to age 7 and deals with issues about how you cope with your kids if they're difficult at meal times and if they have tantrums. It is very well used by parents. But, of course, this legislation will go up to 18 years old, and so the issues may be very different. So, we're already starting to prepare to update that 'Parenting. Give it time' campaign. And then, obviously, there's the universal services that give access to help and to promote positive parenting, delivered by local government, health, education, social services, social justice and the third sector. We will be encouraging all those agencies that provide that universal service to help support parents and to pass on this information. Then, there will be the more targeted supports, such as Flying Start and Families First, which offer help and advice. But what I've done is I've asked the officials to carry out a mapping exercise to see where the support is and where the gaps are or opportunities to do more, particularly around information and advice on positive alternatives to physical punishment, but also more widely. So, we are looking to see where the gaps are. I think parents do tend to use information and try to get help in many different ways. A very large number, actually, do use the internet. I was surprised, actually, that so many used the internet to get information. Others ask their mothers, their families, their friends, and go to agencies. It's such a wide range that we need that mapping exercise and we need to see where we need to put in more support.
Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm pleased that you're going to conduct that exercise, because the evidence that we've received from a number of different directions is that there isn't enough investment in reality in the support services in the early years, and that there is a real need for the focus within Government go back to early intervention and to have a much more co-ordinated strategy. You've mentioned a number of agencies working on different elements, perhaps, but perhaps there's a need to bring them all together. You talk about the 'Parenting. Give it time' campaign, but I think it's an online campaign effectively, and Flying Start—yes, people who attend those courses find them useful, but, of course, it's not available across Wales and it's not available to every parent. There is a scheme that is available through schools in Gwynedd—perhaps you are aware of it—Incredible Years, with Professor Judy Hutchings, who has been working on this for a number of years now, very successfully, where schools, parents and the children work together on parenting methods that are positive. I wonder if it's time to think about expanding that as part of an early intervention strategy across Wales. Perhaps you can't give a specific answer today, but may I ask you to take a look at that? What concerns me is that the Bill is going through but there's not enough work relating to education and having people's support for different methods, more positive methods, in my opinion, of parenting. There's a real need to move and to invest in that area and perhaps move money towards that work.
Julie Morgan AM: Well, certainly, I think that is the purpose of the mapping exercise, to see what is successful, where things need to be expanded, and that's what we're going to consider. Incredible Years—I know it's very successful; I am aware of that programme. I think there are patches all over Wales of really good progress, but, certainly, I'm sure we need to give more support to parents in the early years, and I think they're only too glad to have it as well. Children are very receptive at that age and early intervention is the key to many of the issues that we have to deal with later on.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to return to some of the parenting issues later, but in the meantime we've got questions from Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: Just to take it on the next step from what Siân Gwenllian was asking about—in schools, are teachers ready for this legislation?
Julie Morgan AM: On our implementation group, the education sector is represented. They've come to the first meeting of the implementation group. So, they're going to be fully involved in the preparation. Obviously, corporal punishment was banned in schools a long time ago, and I think the education sector is very supportive of this move. But in terms of the awareness for teachers to be ready for it—obviously, the awareness campaign has got to be aimed at professionals in every field and certainly aimed at teachers.
Hefin David AM: So, if I was a teacher in an individual school, what kind of preparation do you think I should expect?
Julie Morgan AM: You know this better than me, having been more in the education field than me, but I think teachers are updated on different parts of childcare legislation now, and have in-service training days and training courses. And, certainly, perhaps this would be part of that—part of the training that teachers get. This would have to be incorporated into that.
Hefin David AM: One of the things that the National Association of Head Teachers told us was that they wouldn't want the cost of that kind of training to come from core budgets. Would you agree with that?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, I would have thought this sort of measure would be incorporated into the training they were using already, actually. I wouldn't have seen it would need something completely separate.
Hefin David AM: So, you think it should come from the core budget that they use for training?
Julie Morgan AM: I think it could be incorporated in what they're already doing.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And do you think that would be a significant additional cost or do you think that that would be minimal?
Julie Morgan AM: I would have thought it would be minimal. They already have training courses about childcare issues, and this would be something that would be absorbed into that.
Hefin David AM: You mentioned the implementation group and the fact that educators are represented on it. Can you just be a bit clearer about how they are represented again? I'm not sure I caught that.
Julie Morgan AM: Do you want to, Karen, because you were at the group?
Karen Cornish: Yes. So, education are represented on it through the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, and they have a representative on the strategic implementation group, and we are working with them to understand who else will be on the task and finish groups that we're setting up that the Minister's already talked about. And we've also had conversations with all of the trade unions. I personally went and spoke to them earlier in the year when the Bill was being introduced, received their feedback and have said that I will go back and speak with them.
Hefin David AM: Okay. The things that are being raised so far—would you say they're reflective of the concerns that the NAHT rose about, for example, funding of training? Are those kinds of issues raised? The practical implications of introducing this Bill—are they raised? If not, what other issues might be raised?
Karen Cornish: So, I think that the main concerns that you've already heard as a committee are similar concerns to those that have been raised previously. So, there's not anything in addition to the things that we have discussed, either with the trade unions or through the implementation group, or during the consultation period. And, as the Minister said, for the majority of these sort of things, teachers, education and other workforces already have procedures in place, because this comes under a safeguarding issue at one level. There are procedures and processes that are already there that they all follow. The ask will be based around those safeguarding procedures and, therefore, education and other services update their processes and procedures on a regular basis as a matter of course when any issues like this are addressed. There's a wider context here. Minister, I don't know whether you wanted to say anything about the well-being and the—
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. One of the things that I think this committee has been involved in is we want to have a whole-school approach. We want mental health and well-being to be part of the way that the whole school operates, and the culture and how schools engage with pupils and parents. And we want to create that atmosphere where there's no wrong door, where children can bring up any of the concerns that they have with any member of the school staff that they trust. And, obviously, the school staff is wider than the teachers. And so, I think the creation of that sort of atmosphere is very important in taking forward this issue.
Hefin David AM: I appreciate that. I think the Bill, though, introduces a very specific set of changes that—
Julie Morgan AM: It removes the defence; that's all the Bill does.
Hefin David AM: But should a parent witness, now, smacking, then it will require a different kind of approach—sorry, if a teacher were to witness smacking, it would require a different kind of approach, perhaps, to existing approaches. There shouldn't, therefore, be any surprise amongst teachers in how to deal with these things when the Bill comes in. I suppose the question I'm asking is: can we be assured that nothing you've said today in this meeting, in this committee, should be a surprise to teachers and trade unions, because that would already have been communicated through the Bill implementation group?
Julie Morgan AM: Yes, well, Karen has already said about the meetings that she's had with the unions and they are present on the implementation group, but a lot of these things happen already. They already have to make decisions about physical punishment they may be told about by children, for example—probably more likely than actually witnessing anything. And they already have to make decisions on those sorts of issues, so I see this as being incorporated in with that.
Hefin David AM: Okay. With regard to health and the communication of this to parents, we've heard about the Healthy Child Wales programme, and the fact that it has the opportunity to play a role in raising parents' awareness. Do you think that's the case?
Julie Morgan AM: I think the Healthy Child Wales programme and the role of the health visitor is absolutely crucial, because, obviously, the health visitor is there right at the beginning. It's a universal service, and so there will be great opportunity for them to promote positive parenting in a much stronger way than they're able to do at the moment, because the fact that you have this defence does mean that the professionals aren't able to make it as clear as they want to make it that positive parenting is the way that they'd like families to go. So, I think this will be a great advantage to health visitors, and, obviously, they support it strongly, because they're trying to encourage parents not to use physical punishment now, but with their hands slightly tied behind their back, because the defence does exist.
Hefin David AM: That's great, that's a good thing, but the concern we've got is that half the parents across Wales are not accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme, and in my community, within the Aneurin Bevan health board area, 80 per cent of parents aren't accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme. So, are there concerns that, if you rely too much on that process for communication, then parents, particularly in the early years, will be left out?
Julie Morgan AM: We've got to rely on a range of ways of reaching parents, and I think that there are other times when there is a much higher ratio of children and families seen. But I think we've had that discussion with the mapping exercise that we've already mentioned, that we're going to identify where there are gaps or where we can do more, and that's where we will identify this.
Karen Cornish: I think as well that that figure relates to one contact point across the whole of the Healthy Child Wales programme, not the Healthy Child Wales programme as a whole. Maybe we could come back with some further information about the contacts, because I'm—. That figure—
Lynne Neagle AM: The percentage relates to the contact at age three and a half, but that is exactly the kind of age when you'd expect more children to—. If they were going to be smacked, it would be at that sort of age, wouldn't it, really? So, that is a concern for the committee, really, in terms of coverage.
Karen Cornish: I can appreciate that, although I would—. Midwives, health visitors and others working with families would actually be giving those messages, core messages, about setting boundaries, managing behaviour, discipline, positive parenting, right from the very beginning. So, reliance on that single point of contact at that one age point is not necessarily the most appropriate, because I think there's a period from birth through to, actually, later as well, when those key health messages, those key messages around positive parenting, are and can be given. As the Minister said, we will be mapping a lot of this, but we can give you some more advice on that, if that would be helpful, about the types of messages that are given during that period of time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, I think that would be helpful. I've got some supplementaries on this, because I think the committee is concerned that at a key opportunity at age three and a half, a big chunk of families aren't having that contact that they should expect with their health visitor, really. Suzy, then Siân.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. It's also a time in their child's life when they're likely to be spending time not with their parents, in school or early years. And I just wanted a bit of clarification from you, Minister, on what you were saying to Hefin David about training here. I got the sense you thought this could just be slipped in as a paragraph in existing guidance, but I'm not clear about what happens to a teacher who is told by a child that they've been smacked, and they decide that they're not going to report that—will they get into trouble over that? If it's part of a bigger picture that a teacher should have picked up, that's different, but, if a child tells a teacher, 'Oh, Mammy smacked me because I did such and such', is that teacher going to get into trouble if they don't report that to the police?
Julie Morgan AM: If that happens now, the teacher is expected to report that now. I think they usually call in social services.
Suzy Davies AM: Oh, it goes to social services.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes.
Suzy Davies AM: But that clarity is needed as well.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. That is what happens now, so would you expect a teacher to do it, yes.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. All right, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Siân.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, I'm just interested to hear a bit more about the mapping exercise that you've referred to, which I think is really important, but it is going to show up a lot of gaps geographically, but also in service provision for different groups of families. It's all very well doing a mapping exercise, but what is the purpose of that, and how are you going to ensure that those gaps don't exist in future? Maybe we could have a note about what the timetable is for this exercise, and more in-depth understanding perhaps about what your intentions are, and how you intend to take it forward once you've done the mapping exercise.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We absolutely acknowledge that there is a lot more work to be done, and we know that we have to work hard at this to reach every family. Obviously, the information that we've had about the Healthy Child Wales, the health boards will be monitoring that information and will be—. I think they're going to establish a project board to consider the themes that are coming out from the Healthy Child Wales, and so that will be certainly addressed there. And we will absolutely acknowledge that we expect that there will be work to be done.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And there will be investment needed, obviously, to fill in those gaps, which means a significant shift in the way Government now looks at its budget, and a shift towards that early prevention.
Julie Morgan AM: I think we all agree that early prevention is the key for happy, healthy children, and so we'll certainly consider everything that arises.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the police and the Crown Prosecution Service from Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. You've said repeatedly that the intention of this Bill isn't to criminalise parents, and I believe that that's not your intention. So, what I'm interested in hearing about is how you—or the work that you've done to satisfy yourself that the huge majority of parents that are going to be caught up in the change of this Act won't result in parents getting anywhere near the CPS, for example. Obviously, there are going to be occasions where there are recidivists who keep smacking despite perhaps earlier warnings, or families get identified as doing something far more serious with their children than this, and I'm not talking about those—I'm talking about the people who are currently protected, if I can put it like that. I'm very interested in hearing what you've got to say about out-of-court disposals and pre being charged activity. I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the assessment and work that you've done in that area.
Julie Morgan AM: Right. Well, there are a number of out-of-court disposals that the police can use, because the police want to respond in a positive and proportionate way. The use of out-of-court disposals is actually a non-devolved responsibility, but we'll be working—
Suzy Davies AM: That's what I wanted to ask you about.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they are non-devolved, but we will be working with the Home Office, the Ministry of Justice, the CPS, the police and the police and crime commissioners to consider suitable interventions. And one of the main areas of focus of the National Police Chiefs' Council's national strategy is to reduce the current six disposal options to just two. And that's going to be conditional caution and community resolution, and the four Welsh police forces are going to be moving towards this two-tier approach, which they believe will make for greater consistency. So, what we're doing is we are exploring, with the police liaison unit, how we can develop a suitable diversion scheme, with a focus on advice and support on positive alternatives to physical punishment, and how we can tie that into the wider activity. And, obviously, it all depends on the individual circumstances of the case, because the other thing we're going to look at is the individual. But it's possible then we could get a diversion scheme provided through a community resolution order; it could be potentially be given instead of a caution. And so that would be—you know, parents could be referred to a scheme. So, that's what we're discussing with the police liaison unit at the moment.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for confirming that, but even that is quite far down the process from the day that a smack is reported, and, as you know, particularly as soon as the police get involved, and even social services, if a record is made of even a complaint—even if that complaint goes no further, even if you don't get anywhere near an arrest, shall we say, that is logged in certain parts of the system and will need to be revealed in certain circumstances. I'm thinking of the enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service check in particular, but there are other instances as well. Have you done any impact assessment on that, because that is a—we're talking about a situation where there's a massive impact, potentially, on an adult, when there have been no grounds at all to worry that a child's rights have been infringed, for example? It will happen in malicious reporting, but it could happen in reporting where an apparent battery has taken place, but it turns out to have been something completely different—you know, pushing a child's hand away, that sort of thing. The police are not going to want to take that any further at all, but it's on their records. How are you going to protect parents in those circumstances, within our legislative competence?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, the issue of non-conviction data obviously doesn't just apply to this Bill we're bringing in; it applies to everything. So, it's something that you can look at in a general sense—that the police can visit and there's no further action, but that could be for anything—
Suzy Davies AM: But this is very sensitive, this area.
Julie Morgan AM: —and it's still logged. But, obviously, this does have an issue in terms of, particularly, the DBS checks and if you needed an enhanced certificate, if you wanted to be a teacher, a childcare worker, or those sorts of occupations. But, when disclosing information held locally, the police follow the quality assurance framework, and information must pass certain tests, which are related to considerations of relevance, substantiality and proportionality, and considerations of the safety aspects as well of disclosing information. And the police must record their thought process, their rationale, explaining how and why they reached all of their conclusions and their decisions. And this information is then assessed by the chief officer to determine whether it's reasonable to believe that it's relevant, and whether, in their opinion, it ought to be disclosed. Information should only be disclosed if it meets both of those requirements. So—
Suzy Davies AM: Is that in all jobs, though, because my understanding is that there are certain professions where that exemption doesn’t apply, and they’re likely to be the ones that are really relevant to the removal of the defence? So, I’m not talking about, I don't know, people who might work as volunteers; I’m literally talking about teachers and doctors, maybe dentists.
Julie Morgan AM: Well, we have done some work on this, haven’t we? Do you want to say about that, Karen?
Karen Cornish: Yes. So, it does apply across all professions, and we have been in discussion with the DBS about when and how and why information would be released, and also how often. And our understanding at this moment in time is that this type of information is released only in a very, very small number of cases. I think we’re talking less than 1 per cent of cases—
Suzy Davies AM: One per cent of what figure though?
Karen Cornish: —in the last year. It’s about 1 per cent of 2,500, something like that. I haven’t got the exact figures with me.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, but it helps us to understand the general amount—
Karen Cornish: So, it’s about two, three, four cases in a year where this type of information is disclosed. It’s information that, obviously, we have got, but I think it’s really important to understand that this is a really rigorous process that the police and the DBS have in place. They consider everything in the round before they would even consider actually releasing any information that's non-conviction information in relation to employment.
Suzy Davies AM: But this is a new consideration for them. They haven't tested their ability to get their judgment right on this one yet. Are you concerned that, in order to be on the safe side, if I can put it like that, there's an increased likelihood of disclosure—which actually might disappear over time, because there's an opportunity to exercise judgment more frequently and get the balance right?
Karen Cornish: I think they do have to consider non-conviction information now and some of that non-conviction information may be in relation to physical punishment of a child. I think you've received evidence from the police saying that there are 18,000 or so incidents in one police force area alone, where information is potentially on their records, and yet we understand that a very, very small proportion of non-conviction information is released to an employer during a recruitment process. So, our expectation, based on that information, would be that it would remain at a very low level.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish off on this one: we don't have legislative competence in this particular area, so we are relying on goodwill and the conversations that you have, which I'm sure are very productive. What will happen if we start getting instances where perhaps that judgment hasn't been exercised correctly? There's nothing, as a Government, you can do to challenge that particularly.
Julie Morgan AM: I can only emphasise the very close working relationships we've got and I think will continue to build as we introduce this legislation. We've got it all set up and it's been very productive so far.
Suzy Davies AM: Well, I appreciate that. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Suzy. Just before we move on, could I ask, then—? Maybe the committee would be grateful for a note providing an update on the latest work that the Government has done on out-of-court disposals, including estimated costs. We'd also appreciate a note on the Welsh Government's discussions with the DBS and the figures that Karen just referred to, if that's okay, please. Thank you. The next questions are from Hefin on resources.
Hefin David AM: When you first appeared before the committee at the beginning of Stage 1, I wasn't hugely reassured by the evidence you gave on the resource implications of the Bill. It seems to be relying, to a great extent, on the limited number of reporting of cases that's likely to happen, as we've seen in the evidence we've received. That's largely been recognised by the stakeholders who've given evidence, but isn't there still the potential for a degree of unknown costs to come into this, and what planning have you done for those unknown costs—those unforeseen costs—that might occur?
Julie Morgan AM: I feel that—. You're right that there always could be unknown costs, but we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate. For example, I've committed to fund the high-intensity awareness-raising campaign, and committed to carry out a mapping exercise to establish whether there are any gaps in the parenting support. We know that evidence from other countries does show that, if we bring in this legislation and raise awareness, it does change people's attitudes, so there may, in the long term, be a saving if we do that. But we are committed to working with organisations to put in place arrangements so that we're able to collect the data so that we know what the impact is. But I just have to repeat that all our evidence, looking at other countries, is that there isn't a huge increase in the workload.
Hefin David AM: No. I think you can make the argument for precedent elsewhere, but you can also say that every country has a different culture and approach to how it raises children, and therefore there'll be a number of differences as well. The explanatory memorandum raises some specific cases. It talks about unknown costs in relation to social services as a result of a potential increasing referrals; family courts and CAFCASS Cymru as a result of a potential increase in allegations, which we talked about; the CPS and a higher volume of requests for charging advice from the police; and the review of training and guidance offered by organisations involved in the safeguarding of children. All those things we've talked around, but what would be reassuring for the committee is, perhaps, if you could give us a broad figure, which the Government would say, 'We'll need to set this number aside in order to be prepared for the implementation of this Bill.' Would you be willing to present that at some point during the passage of the Bill?
Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us. Certainly, the CPS say that they can cope. CAFCASS say that they can cope. And it is very difficult to anticipate what impact there would be on social services. The people who are managing social services say they don't anticipate a big impact. I think the other important thing to recognise is that this area of work is already dealt with by all these people. So, the CPS is already involved in changing its guidance all the time, so it's not going to be much of an impact for them to actually have to do that over this issue. Social services are already dealing with calls and referrals about the physical punishment of children already, including reasonable punishment. And so it's not a new category of work. I accept that we're working in a situation where there's a general pressure on public services, but I think this area that we're legislating on here is part of what everybody's doing already. And so I don't see it as such a big thing in terms of impact.
Hefin David AM: That's a perfectly reasonable answer, but then what about providing a ballpark figure for a kind unforeseen fund that you might set aside?
Julie Morgan AM: I don't think it's possible to do that. We have to measure it as we go along. We've got to get the data. The data will show—. We've got to have baseline data to begin with, and that's what's so difficult to get, because we can't get that from other countries. Only New Zealand recorded any incidents before they actually brought in the legislation, and they did that for three months beforehand. That's why we've been looking at New Zealand a lot of the time, just to make predictions. But we've got to rely on the data. One of these sub-groups is looking at data, so that sub-group should be very productive, I think. And then we will be actually able to see what happens. But I don't think we can respond to that.
Hefin David AM: Okay, that's fine. And the last question, with regard to resourcing, just to understand the process of how this ties into the wider budgeting—did you and your officials sit down with the Finance Minister and the First Minister's officials to discuss the costing of this? I imagine so. What was the nature of that kind of discussion?
Julie Morgan AM: Some of the costings are decided. For example, the advertising, the awareness-raising campaign—that's £2.2 million over six years. So the decision has been made about that. I don't know if there were further discussions right at the beginning of this process.
Karen Cornish: There have been discussions. The discussions tend to be positive. We can't really say any more beyond that at this moment in time.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And who were the discussions with?
Karen Cornish: There has been an in-the-round discussion before the Bill was introduced, at which the First Minister and the finance Minister and others were present.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And I imagine it's gone to Cabinet for discussion.
Karen Cornish: The consultation and then the Bill going forward has been discussed by Cabinet, and gone through Cabinet processes, as you would expect.
Hefin David AM: So, are we able to say that the Government as a whole is satisfied that there isn't going to be a huge impact on resource as a result of the introduction of this Bill?
Karen Cornish: I think what you can say is that the Government are satisfied that they are supportive of the Bill and have put the Bill forward. I think you can say that.
Hefin David AM: Okay. Did you want to come in?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. Are you satisfied that that amount of money—£2.5 million over five years [correction: £2.2 million over six years]—is going to be enough? From memory, with the organ donation Bill, the amount was something in the region of around £7 million that was set aside, I think. Or maybe I'm misremembering that, but—
Karen Cornish: I think it was about £4 million—
Lynne Neagle AM: £4 million—
Karen Cornish: Something like that.
Lynne Neagle AM: So, there's a disparity, then. That was a few years ago. You've got to reach a lot of people, haven't you, with this, including some pretty hard-to-reach groups as well. Are you confident that amount of money is going to be enough?
Karen Cornish: We are as confident as we can be at this moment in time. We are obviously going to be working with focus groups and others to look at what sorts of messaging there will need to be. But in terms of the initial stages of the awareness campaign, we are, as I say, as confident as we can be, based on what we know.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Hefin, on human rights.
Hefin David AM: I just wanted to ask a very specific question on human rights, because, you know, when it comes to appeals, there are a variety of articles under the European Convention on Human Rights that might be used with regard to a challenge to the law as enacted. So, I'll ask you the question very directly. For the purpose of the record, can you outline to us the assessment you've made in preparation for this Bill in relation to the balancing of relevant articles of the European Convention on Human Rights, including but not limited to article 8 on the respect for private life; article 9, freedom of conscience and religion; article 3, the right to protection from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment; and article 14, protection from discrimination?
Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much. We have given a great deal of thought, as you can imagine, to the human rights considerations as set out in our impact assessments, and it's ultimately a question how we find a balance between the rights of children as well as parents, who both enjoy rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. So, article 3 is the prohibition of torture: 'No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.' In ensuring that children are protected from physical punishment in the same way as adults, the Bill is following that requirement of article 3, and the positive obligations on states to protect individuals from ill treatment or punishment that is contrary to article 3. And then, in terms of article 8, right to respect for private and family life, 'Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.' Some of those who are opposed to the prohibition of physical punishment have cited article 8, private and family life, and also cited article 9, freedom of thought, conscience and religion, as potentially protecting the right for parents to decide how best to punish their children, including the use of physical punishment. That is used as an argument by those who are opposed to stopping physical punishment. But these rights are not absolute, and action can therefore be taken that interferes with them, provided the interference is justified. It's the Government's view that the Bill's provisions are necessary in order to protect the rights and freedom of children. We are looking here from the point of view of children. The Bill's provisions are regarded as proportionate measures, and given the fundamental importance of protecting children from inhumane or degrading punishment or other ill treatment, we do consider that we have balanced the rights in a proportionate way. And then, article 10, freedom of expression, and article 14, prohibition of discrimination—these rights are not absolute and action can be taken, therefore, that interferes with them, providing the interference is justified. We don't think it's clear that article 10 and 14 rights are being interfered with, but even if they are, we consider we can justify the interference in order to protect the rights and freedoms of children. I don't know, Emma, whether you wanted to add anything to any of that.
Emma Gammon: Only that we set out—. I think it's the equality impact assessment that sets out the positive and negative impacts of the proposal and the balancing of the rights enjoyed by both parents and children.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. There are some questions from Vikki on awareness raising. Can I ask for concise questions please?
Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, Chair. So, last week, the Welsh Government published its baseline survey of public attitudes to physical punishment of children, and that showed us that 58 per cent of the public already thought the law did not allow parents to smack their children. You could look at this two ways. You could think glass half full, which suggests that we don't have many people to try and convince of that. But on the flipside of that, would you suggest, perhaps, that that data shows there is a challenge faced by the Welsh Government to make sure the public understand the proposed legislation, given that more than half of the population, according to those statistics, have a complete misunderstanding of the current law?
Julie Morgan AM: Certainly, I think that finding is reflected in people I speak to who do think that the law does not allow parents to hit their children. I mean, I'm personally very reassured that 58 per cent of the public think the law doesn't allow that to happen because I think, well, they're not hitting their children, so we're over 50 per cent of where we want to get. So, I think that is a good thing, but it does highlight the fact that the legislation, as it is, is confused. I think it makes a very good case for saying that we do need to simplify this legislation. We need much greater clarity in the law for professionals who are working and trying to help parents, and for parents themselves. So, I think that this is a case for saying that it's very important that we carry out this legislation to make it all much clearer. But I am pleased that 58 per cent of the public think the law has already changed.
Vikki Howells AM: One of the most consistent messages that this committee has heard is that the proposed law won't work unless there's a significant campaign to raise awareness with members of the public. We know that Sweden went to considerable lengths to publicise the change in the law there, and I can remember attending a cross-party group, chaired by yourself, Deputy Minister, where we heard evidence from Ireland to the same effect, as well—the necessity of the public awareness campaign. You already said that a duty on the face of the Bill to raise awareness is not necessary, but then, in your answer to Suzy Davies, you said you would consider putting some things on the face of the Bill. So, can you explain to us your key arguments surrounding this issue?
Julie Morgan AM: I absolutely agree that it's essential that we do have a big awareness campaign, because all the research we've had shows, in fact, that if you don't have the awareness campaign, the legislation won't be as effective. So, we need a joint effort; I'm totally committed to doing that. I've said it publicly here, and I'm saying it again. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have it on the face of the Bill, but as I said to Suzy, I'm prepared to consider anything the committee is bringing forward because I'm very keen for this Bill to progress through this process and to learn from it. So, I'm saying that I'm prepared to consider it.
Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, that's very useful. And finally, New Zealand is an oft-cited example, mentioned in the explanatory memorandum as well. So, we know New Zealand prohibited physical punishment in 2007, but yet in a non-binding referendum two years later, 87.5 per cent of voters voted 'no' in response to the question, 'Should a smack, as part of good parental correction, be a criminal offence in New Zealand?' On what basis, then, are you confident that this sort of polarisation won't happen in Wales, especially considering the current political climate there is out there?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, what we trying to do is we're trying to take this forward in as consensual a way as we possibly can. We're very keen that we listen to the views of everybody. All those people who don't agree with us, who are a minority, it seems, we want to hear what they've got to say, taking very seriously all the points that are raised here by the committee. I haven't seen any sign of any polarisation in any way that I would be concerned about, because, certainly, the people who do oppose the Bill, I've met with them, I know they've given evidence to your committee and the views of parents have been taken into account. We completely accept that we want to listen to the views of people who don't agree. I hope that they then, if the Bill does become law, will then accept and respect the democratic process. So, I don't feel concerned, really, about that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, a brief supplementary.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I started at the very beginning, Deputy Minister, with the fact that there's an overwhelming majority of parents—those who are naturally charged with raising their children—against this Bill. So, there is a polarisation. We've gone out to survey on it and the overwhelming response from parents is that they do not support this Bill. And I think that needs to be put on the record.
Julie Morgan AM: I think that our representative surveys that we've carried out do show considerable support for the Bill—
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But not from parents.
Julie Morgan AM: —particularly from parents with young children under seven. That's where the support does lie. And it's older people who are much less likely to support the legislation, and I think it's all linked to what many of us were used to, what happened in our childhoods, when it was accepted and it was part of the time that this was what you did. But we have moved on now and we're in a different era. So, I think many older people, because they smacked their children or were smacked themselves, have felt a degree of resistance, perhaps, to the Bill. But as I say, I think times have changed. We want to respect children's rights and what happened in the past is in the past now, and we want to have a new era for respecting children's human rights and dignity. And I think I'll go back to what I said: I don't see that children's rights to dignity is going to happen if a big person is able to hit a small person.
Lynne Neagle AM: Just to clarify, Janet's referring to the committee's consultation and the percentage of responses that we've had.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: Siân.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, we had a specific section, but because time is moving quite fast, perhaps you could give us a note in response. Some witnesses saw a risk that the Bill could have a disproportionate impact on specific groups—women, because they are the main carers, minority ethnic groups and very young children. So, if it would be possible for us to receive a note as to whether you agree that this will have a disproportionate impact upon them, and if so, what would be the mitigating measures you would take. But, specifically, we have heard from several witnesses and the equality impact assessment of the Bill does acknowledge that a low income is a risk factor in the use of physical punishment and that this could have a negative impact specifically on this group of parents. Now, we know that Flying Start is available to try to mitigate that to some degree, but of course not all low-income families live within a Flying Start area, so what mitigating work will you be undertaking in that regard?
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. We are aware of the issue of reaching out to certain groups. We are running focus groups where we will be taking the different groups into account, and we will work with different groups, communities and organisations to make sure that they are aware of the change in the law, and we will—I know you want to move on—but we will write to you about anything more specific.
Lynne Neagle AM: Just finally from me, then, you referred to the mapping exercise, which is very welcomed by the committee. Should that mapping exercise identify gaps? Will the Welsh Government be making a commitment to provide funding to plug those gaps so that there is a universal offer of parenting support for families in Wales?
Julie Morgan AM: We will certainly consider it at that point.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've come to the end of our time. We've covered a great deal of ground. Thank you, all, for attending and for answering such a diverse range of questions. As usual, you will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much to the three of you for your time this morning.
Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, and thank you for all the questions and the wide range that we covered. Thank you very much.
Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, providing additional information following the evidence session on 2 May for this Bill. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services in response to the committee's letter, which requested information on CAFCASS Cymru's response on specific points of interest in relation to the Bill. And paper to note 3 is a letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services making the committee aware of research undertaken in relation to public attitudes to physical punishment. Can I ask if Members are happy to note those?
Suzy Davies AM: Can I just make one observation? I think it's on the first of the letters, which is the difficulty that there's been in trying to disaggregate the evidence of smacking as isolated incidents as compared to smacking as part of a bigger pattern of behaviour. I think that's worth noting on the record.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Suzy. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Okay, thank you. | |
doc_143 | Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Hmm .
Project Manager: Okay . Good morning everybody . Um I'm glad you could all come . I'm really excited to start this team . Um I'm just gonna have a little PowerPoint presentation for us , for our kick-off meeting . My name is Rose Lindgren . I I'll be the Project Manager . Um our agenda today is we are gonna do a little opening and then I'm gonna talk a little bit about the project , then we'll move into acquaintance such as getting to know each other a little bit , including a tool training exercise . And then we'll move into the project plan , do a little discussion and close , since we only have twenty five minutes . First of all our project aim . Um we are creating a new remote control which we have three goals about , it needs to be original , trendy and user-friendly . I'm hoping that we can all work together to achieve all three of those . Um so we're gonna divide us up into three {vocalsound} compa three parts . First the functional design which will be uh first we'll do individual work , come into a meeting , the conceptional design , individual work and a meeting , and then the detailed design , individual work and a meeting . So that we'll each be doing our own ideas and then coming together and um collaborating . Okay , we're gonna get to know each other a little bit . So um , what we're gonna do is start off with um let's start off with Amina . Um Alima ,
Industrial Designer: Alima .
Project Manager: sorry , Alima .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um we're gonna do a little tool training , so we are gonna work with that whiteboard behind you . Um introduce yourself , um say one thing about yourself and then draw your favourite animal and tell us about it .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Um I don't know which one of these I have to bring with me .
Project Manager: Probably both .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right , so , I'm supposed to draw my favourite animal . I have no drawing skills whatsoever . But uh let's see , introduce myself . My name is Alima Bucciantini . Um I'm from the state of Maine in the US . I'm doing nationalism studies , blah , blah , blah , and I have no artistic talents .
Project Manager: How do you spell your name ?
Industrial Designer: A_ L_ I_ M_ A_ .
Project Manager: Thanks .
Industrial Designer: Oh , and I guess I'm the Industrial Designer on this project . So let's see if I can get
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: um here . I will draw a little turtle for you all . Not necessarily 'cause it's my absolute favourite animal , but just that I think they're drawable . And you have the pretty little shell going on . Some little eyes . Happy . There you go . That's a turtle .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: So what are your favourite characteristics ?
Industrial Designer: Um . I I like the whole having a shell thing .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: It's quite cool carry your home around where you go , um quite decorative little animals , they can swim , they can , they're very adaptable , they carry everything they need with them , um and they're easy to draw .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Excellent .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Shall we just go around the table ?
User Interface: Uh Okay . Well , my name is Iain uh
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: and I'm the User Interface Designer for the project . Um . And I'll try and draw my favourite animal .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No ,
User Interface: I'll {disfmarker} I should leave that one on there
Industrial Designer: you can erase the turtle ,
User Interface: shouldn't I {vocalsound} before I callously rub it off .
Industrial Designer: it's alright .
Project Manager: Might be nice to have them all up there at same time .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um I'm not gonna draw it quite to scale um .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Is that at least identifiable ?
Industrial Designer: Snake .
Marketing: Well .
Project Manager: Em
Industrial Designer: Well ,
User Interface: It's a whale {vocalsound} , yes .
Industrial Designer: snake ? {vocalsound} It's w {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Thanks .
Marketing: Oh my god , it's better than what I'm gonna be able to do .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um and , yeah , the reason I like whales is 'cause uh they're {disfmarker} well , first of all they're quite intelligent um and also they're they're kind of mysterious , like we don't really know much about them or or understand how they work , how they form groups . And I just find them interesting animals .
Marketing: Take my contraptions with me . Alright , I'm Jessy . I'm from around D_C_ ish sort of in the U_S_ . And we're gonna keep the deep sea sort of theme going on , {gap} animal . Don't really know how to draw this . Just where can I {disfmarker} Mm . Mm . Maybe if I do the water ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but how ? Sort of give an idea . {vocalsound} I have no idea how one would explain this . Mm maybe with some whiskers . Briefly , it's supposed to be a seal .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: You can imagine it in the water . I like them , because they are like playful and silly sort of have a good time . Not gonna try and pretend like I can get any better than that . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm 'kay . Mm 'kay ? I'm Rose and I'm Project Manager , {vocalsound} from California . Um . Hmm . {vocalsound} S {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh ,
Marketing: It's definitely significantly harder once you are doing it .
Industrial Designer: a cat .
Project Manager: Um it's actually a coyote .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Let's see . Let's see ,
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's impressive .
Project Manager: let's give it a little bit of a snout , I don't know , some teeth .
Industrial Designer: That's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: That's pretty impressive .
User Interface: Cool . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh dear . {vocalsound} Yes .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I live um I live right across the street from an open space in California . We have coyotes howl all the time . So I really enjoy their their singing , you they're really beautiful animals . Mm . {vocalsound} Okay um , moving on to slightly more serious stuff . We're gonna talk about project finances . Um we have a couple {vocalsound} we'd like to sell it for about twenty five Euro with the profit aim of um fifteen million Euro um from our sales and because this is such {disfmarker} this is for television it's a {disfmarker} we have a market range of Internet , like it's an international market range , we don't have to worry about specifics . Um in order to make a profit of this magnitude , we need to um be able to produce each one at a maximum of twelve fifty Euro . So we're selling it for twice what we'd like to produce it for . Okay um , just to generate a little bit of discussion about the project um , I could {disfmarker} I'd like to hear about your experiences using ro remote controls , um your first ideas about um creating a new r remote control , what would be the best um like you {disfmarker} what are the features that you really like what are the features that you don't like , etcetera , so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um I hate when there's like four different buttons and you have to press to actually turn on the T_V_ like you have to do one for the power of the T_V_ and then like another one to get the actual screen on and something else to get it all going , I don't know . Now they keep combining all different remotes together , and I don't know if I necessarily like that 'cause I feel like you end up with multimedia overload .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I just wanna watch the T_V_ {vocalsound} um .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Always gets lost . Some sort of like device to help you find it .
User Interface: I've used , I've used remote controls , for things like T_V_ and the C_D_ player and video recorder and I I guess they're they're pretty neat neat little tools uh . You don't have to get up and walk across the room to change a channel .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: So especially if you're someone really lazy like me they they're pretty nice . Um . I find them {disfmarker} they can be a bit annoying , especially , like you know if I'm watching T_V_ I have have to have three separate remote controls of {disfmarker} in front of me , you know , one for the T_V_ , one for the digital box , one for m the video recorder as well . Um . And also they tend to they tend to be a bit confusing , they've got too many buttons on them uh too too sort of too sort of complicated when all I really wanna do is switch on and off , change the channel , change the volume .
Industrial Designer: Yeah um . I agree with having too many remotes around . My dad has a whole drawer at home of remotes for various things , and I don't know how to work half of them um . What's important for me , I guess , is that it's easy to use and that there's not too many buttons , they are not too small , you know you know you need to n to know what you're doing . And one thing I particularly like is if you are not um sort of moving it around to get it to work with the infra-red .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um , I think there is a way around that ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but I know in my residence right now the the television you sort of have to walk all around the room to get it to turn on ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so i it's just simpler just to just turn around the T_V_ itself , and I think that's {disfmarker} if we're gonna make a remote control , it should actually work for what it's doing . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: What about like batteries and things like that , like are there some remotes that don don't require like batteries or do all remotes require batteries ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um I would imagine all of them ,
Industrial Designer: I know .
Project Manager: but we could {disfmarker} but it's possible we could use like a lithium battery um that would last a lot longer than like double A_s .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , something that doesn't {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um like tho those are the batteries that are used in a lot of um M_P_ three players now and that kind of thing . Um .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Um . Okay , it seems we have a little bit of a conflict over um to uh combining all the remotes cont together versus having f five different remotes . So um like you said you don't like having all the buttons on one on one remote , and yet you don't wanna have five remotes . So how do we work with that ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Could we get something that just has {disfmarker} No doesn't have all the buttons that you need to program the video recorder or program s other things that I'm not very coherent about , but that just has your major buttons for {disfmarker} that work for everything , you know volume control , on , off ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: channel changing .
Marketing: And maybe that spatially divides it , so it's like if you're looki if you're trying to get the T_V_ on that's , you know , like the top thing on the remote , I dunno if d be vertical or horizontal in terms of how we're gonna make it , but if it's like all the T_V_ stuff was here ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: then all the V_C_R_ stuff was here , all the {disfmarker} whatever else we have programmed into it it's all just in its separate place and not like all the on buttons together ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: N that way {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: 'cause then you like , I don't even know what I'm turning on .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , and if um if you'd save the more complicated functions maybe for separate remotes that you wouldn't need to use every day .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay , so maybe have like one remote that has the main functions on , off , channel changing , volume , and another rote remote with all the special things .
Industrial Designer: Um .
Project Manager: Because that is one thing that um remotes tend to have buttons that the T_V_s no longer have as well .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So like you have to have them somewhere ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: 'cause you're gonna m need those special functions occasionally . Um but not necessarily on the m the normal remote .
Industrial Designer: Right .
User Interface: Can I ask , are we designing a remote control for a television only
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Good question .
User Interface: um , and if if this device is just to be used for the television would we even technically be possible to include video recorder functions on it ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I don't know that yet .
User Interface: Um or should we just stick to just stick to having television television related buttons on it ?
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: It's a good question . Um . {vocalsound} I'll look into that .
Marketing: Mm-hmm hmm .
Project Manager: If I can .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think it's just T_V_ , I mean , if it {disfmarker} if we're taking it just {gap} new product a new television remote control that's not like {vocalsound} doesn't say .
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah .
Marketing: You know , things might be more advanced than that . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} So we should {disfmarker} maybe we should assume that i t it's just a television that we're wanting to control .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well , I mean I suppose it would be nice to have {vocalsound} playing and record and stop buttons on it for the video recorder as well I I don't know if that works technologically or not .
Industrial Designer: Yes . I guess we have to define what what we're aiming for . If it's just a television then that {disfmarker} it's a bit simpler , 'cause there's less buttons that would even need to be on it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: It's an idea with the buttons being really {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Large . If you have older people or people like me that aren't very co-ordinated hand-eye , it's really quite important that you are not pressing a small like teeny mobiles phone size buttons , if we can help it .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . 'Kay sounds like we've had a good little discussion for our first ideas . Mind if we move on ? Ps
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: mm okay .
User Interface: 'Kay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um now our next meeting starts in thirty minutes . I believe we've actually been only working on this this one for about twenty , so we can continue discussing more new ideas if you'd like um ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: but this is just a breakdown of what we'll be doing individually . Um the industrial design , Alima will be doing um the working design .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um the User Interface Designer , that's for {gap} . Technical functions , I guess like keeping in mind the buttons thing , the size of the buttons . Um user requirements um , so you'll be hearing about different trends , uh about different things that people need , um I guess kind of the same uh discussion that we've been having , we'll get from the actual consum s consumers .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay um . And you will get specific instructions sent by your personal coach . I realised in this past one we we didn't have much , we just wanted to get a little brain-storming done . Um so very exited to see all your animals and how {disfmarker} what wonderful um artists we all are {vocalsound} um .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Any questions ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: What we're gonna be discussing at the next meeting ? Do we know that ?
Project Manager: I haven't gotten an agenda yet , um I'll put that together . I'm sure as we'll each get our own instruction
User Interface: Right .
Project Manager: and then um because what we gonna do is first our individual actions and then we'll come back together . So I'm sure we'll all have more concrete things to contribute next time
User Interface: Yep .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
User Interface: Yep .
Industrial Designer: I'm sure we'll be busy .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm 'kay um I'll type up mi minutes and probably email those out to all of you . Um just including all the things that we talked about . Um .
User Interface: Okay . Can you e-mail your slides as well ? Is that possible ?
Project Manager: Yes , I yes , I think I can . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Cool
Project Manager: I'll just attach it to an email . And you're you're number two ,
Industrial Designer: I'm two .
Project Manager: three , four ?
Marketing: I'm four .
Project Manager: Is that correct ? Okay .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: Excellent . It was lovely meeting you all .
User Interface: 'Kay
Project Manager: Just make sure you keep checking the company web site and the emails . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Let me see if I can do that right now . | |
doc_144 | Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright , yeah . {gap} crack on {gap} . Okay so we'll start off with a quick overview of the minutes . I think to sum up the last meeting , would be to say um the requirements that we've um set out . Those are we were going to go for what seemed to be a fairly minimal design based on uh a small joystick , {vocalsound} L_C_D_ and a couple of other buttons for navigation um with power being I suppose one of the main single purpose buttons . Um we were also going to use {gap} novelty of being able to locate the remote control again via a small transmitter with any luck , the idea to try and separate us and also because of the minimal design um looks like we'll be able to be fairly adventurous in the actual physical shape of our remote control with any luck . Um that pretty much sums up the last one . So we'll just crack on , um like to maybe start with the Industrial Designer if it's possible .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh uh okay .
Project Manager: Um uh the con today is the concep today .
Industrial Designer: I'll just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: This uh meeting is the conceptual design phase and is um {disfmarker} Sorry about this . {gap} . And is to cover things like um what the parts might be made of , um , can we uh outsource these from elsewhere , um will we have to construct any items ourselves ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh I have a presentation {gap} I just saved it in the uh the folder .
Project Manager: Yeah , okay well I'll just uh I'll load it up then . Um {vocalsound} . Which one do y
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Project Manager: Oh , interface concept ?
User Interface: Yeah , that's me .
Project Manager: That's you . We've got trend watching , that's you .
Industrial Designer: It's uh {disfmarker} Components design .
Project Manager: Components design .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Alright . {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh . The case uh le that's what I wrote first of all , could be plastic our plastic . Uh but later on {gap} we found out that um it can be rubber as well , or titanium or even wood . So uh we decide what it's gonna be . Probably plastic . Uh we need the infra-red transmitter . Get that off the shelf . Uh joystick we'll probably if we're gonna use it , um could be plastic w or rubber even as well . Um {vocalsound} if you go on to the next slide . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If you go on to f uh findings , it's like two or three slides down .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Right . So , this is what I found we can use . Uh three different types of batteries . Um can either use a hand dynamo , or the kinetic type ones , you know that they use in watches , or else uh a solar powered one .
Project Manager: Okay . Now ,
Industrial Designer: Um .
Project Manager: the kinetic one , we've {disfmarker} 'cause that's the ones where like you {disfmarker} the movement causes it .
Marketing: Cost is {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Um the bat uh the battery for a a watch wouldn't require a lot of power , would be my one query .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Is a kinetic one going to be able to supply enough power ?
User Interface: There's also a watch moves around a great deal more .
Project Manager: Do you think ?
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: W
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I don't think it would . Um . And solar cells , I dunno about that .
Marketing: {gap} yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh . We should probably just use conventional batteries . Um , just like in usual remote controls .
Project Manager: Which I suppose as well would allow us to go off the shelf again , you'd say ?
Industrial Designer: Um . Yeah . Um . {vocalsound} And these are three different types of {disfmarker} or two different types {disfmarker} three different types of shapes you can have . Uh one is a flat one , and then more original ones are single curved one or one with a double curved . Um {vocalsound} the materials are tha there as you can see , but uh you can't have a titanium one for a double curved ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Titanium , the really strong metal , titanium ?
Industrial Designer: uh which would be {disfmarker} Yeah ,
Marketing: Is it not also it's expensive ?
Industrial Designer: and light . Uh , i think so as well , yeah .
Project Manager: Um . Um .
Industrial Designer: They make mountain bikes out of that , don't they . So it's really light as well .
Project Manager: Curious . Um , I don't know if you'd be able to off the top of your head or not , the single curved and double curved , would you be able to give an example ?
Industrial Designer: Um . {vocalsound} T yeah .
Project Manager: Um could you maybe draw something ? I you don't doesn't have to be perfect , it's just 'cause I'm not quite sure if I understand the difference between the two .
Industrial Designer: Uh . Well for a curved , well I was thinking to {disfmarker} f for to sit in your {disfmarker} the palm of your hand . Uh maybe like this , with the uh joy pad here . Joystick here . And maybe um an okay button around here , so that the thumb can uh use it quite easily . Um I don't exactly {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Double curved . It probably means {disfmarker} this is probably double curved . Uh whereas a single curved would be like that . I guess . Or not necessarily .
Project Manager: So it might literally just be {disfmarker}
Marketing: Two curves {gap} .
Project Manager: okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah like that . Whereas this is two curves . Um {vocalsound} so I guess that's what they mean by uh double curve .
Project Manager: Alright .
Industrial Designer: Um which obviously {disfmarker} it looks better than the single curve , but uh you can't have it in titanium , which is uh a nice material . {vocalsound} Uh
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: and for the buttons , um it can have the scroll wheel which they use in mouses for com P_C_s . Uh but um it requires a more expensive chip to use , and if you wanna use L_C_D_ it's even more expensive . So you have to decide , there's trade-offs there . Um {vocalsound} if you want the buttons to be {disfmarker} oh yeah , if you have a double curve uh control and it's rubber , then you have these rubber buttons as well . But {vocalsound} you're gonna ha I reckon you're gonna have to have uh key a number keypad anyway for the amount of channels these days . You wouldn't want to just have to scroll through all the channels to get to the one you want . You wanna enter just the number of it , if you know it . So um I reckon we're gonna have to have a number keypad anyway . Do you think ?
Project Manager: Okay , that was definitely something we can talk about . Um so you've got a little bit about the the chip that we might require as well ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . So , depends where gonna spend the money if you want the f fancy L_C_D_ display .
Project Manager: Um , do you have any idea so far , like when we're saying that we'd need an advanced chip for an L_C_D_ , does that in shoot the cost up by a drastic amount ? Or ?
Marketing: Need an advanced chip for the L_C_D_ . Is that {disfmarker} did I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well I think compared to say just pressing {gap} buttons .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: Advanced , like three eight six advance .
Project Manager: {gap} if you press a button that sends a certain transmission through the infra-red , whereas I think if we're controlling the L_C_D_ we definitely require a much more powerful chip . Just compared to the chip you would use for pushing buttons I think is the the point being made .
Marketing: Okay . Okay , sure .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: If I've not over-stepped . Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah i
Project Manager: Okay , um should I go on , or go back ?
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm , if we only have twelve Pounds fifty , twelve Euros , not even twelve Pounds . Twelve Euros , what's that , like eight pounds or something like that , nine Pounds ?
Project Manager: Well we'd also be relying on the um the bulk buying in producement and such . I assume .
Marketing: Okay , that's good point .
Project Manager: We have to look into the costs of those . So , sorry .
Industrial Designer: Uh the previous slides just explain what's in the internal components of the uh remote control . If you go to the one before that uh so it just says what it does , translate the key press into an infra-red signal and this is received by the T_V_ . Uh the chip just needs to detect the signal or detect the key press and then uh it'll send it to the tr the amplifier .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: And uh then the next slide just shows how the uh copper wires uh interact with the buttons , the rubber buttons , uh to uh get sent to the chip . So that's just how the control works inside . Um we have to decide on what buttons we're gonna use .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Project Manager: Um . {gap} . So in the information that you've been supplied , how feasible would you say that the idea of using an L_C_D_ looks ?
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} I think we can do it if {vocalsound} uh we use conventional batteries and not have solar cells or kinetic . Um and then maybe use single curved uh case . Because we might need it to be curved for the uh thumb to use the joyst joystick easily . Um and then you'll need the advanced chip obviously for the L_C_D_ .
Project Manager: Um I mean that sounds like quite a good requirement to me . Um conventional battery would seem to make sense .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um I'm not sure if there's any cost differences between single and double curved and I'm {disfmarker} I don't know about anybody else , but plastic or rubber as a traditional form of casing would seem to be a good way forward ? {gap} .
User Interface: Mm . Um I'm actually gonna be bold and go oo go straight for rubber um for reasons I'll go into uh in more detail .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: I also have a preference for rubber .
Project Manager: Okay , well um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Based on my research .
Project Manager: Yeah , well will we move on to user interface , and {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap} .
Project Manager: yeah ? Um sorry ,
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: as long as {disfmarker} were you ? Yeah . Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yep I'm finished .
Project Manager: Um {gap} and d d d interface concept .
User Interface: Yep . Now I'm gonna have to work between the uh the slides and the uh {vocalsound} and the white board
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: 'cause I actually I have some fairly concrete things this time . Uh um I was given a an H_T_M_L_ file giving um various ideas from uh from other previous remote control designs , and pretty much decided to just dump them all . I wasn't very impressed by them and they didn't seem to re uh nothing I saw seemed to meet the sorts of design specifications that we're going for today . Um so what I ra rather than looking at other remotes , uh ra oomp be better to simply look at the human hand . Um and try and f um and try and figure out a way of laying out the elements we've already decided on , um so that if r a if {vocalsound} so that the finger is e each finger or thumb is wherever it needs to be already . Um so uh next slide , if you please . Um and what we've basically decided on was the the um the joy uh the joystick , two function buttons and the L_C_D_ , just keep it paired down to the absolute minimum . I don't actually think we need the um the numeric keypad because if you m because one of the menus that we could have available um {vocalsound} v via via the L_C_D_ is one where you scroll through channels , so if there's something f {vocalsound} and be bear in mind since this isn't meant to work for um
Marketing: {gap} digital .
User Interface: f f f {vocalsound} for di for digital or um or for {vocalsound} or for cable , whatever ,
Industrial Designer: Ah , okay .
User Interface: you're basically looking at four or five terrestrial channels , and then um your V_C_ uh and then the channel through your V_C_R_ and or D_V_D_ player . And or um {gap} box . So it's not {vocalsound} I'm not really excessively concerned about that . You must have two two modes , basic mode , where um the joystick's uh left right {vocalsound} left right for channels , up down for volume , um and the uh uh and the menu mode for uh further functions . Um now the reason I was particularly interested in using rubber for this is that if we're going to have a highly ergonomic design , um it needs to be ergonomic for left or right handed people . Um , so you
Project Manager: Can I just jump in slightly there ?
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: That would suggest the double curved design's probably going to be most appropriate , then .
User Interface: Yes , absolutely .
Project Manager: {gap} okay .
User Interface: Um , basi {vocalsound} basically what I {vocalsound} basically what the {vocalsound} what {gap} be having um , I would say , the the whole thing articulated at two points , so that if you if you're handing it from a lef uh left or right handed user you can adjust it so that the um the L_C_ {vocalsound} the L_C_D_ and the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The joystick would be in the right place . And {vocalsound} also this is {gap} a rather nicer de uh design gimmick that the {vocalsound} the um you know the whole thing you know {vocalsound} it should have sort of organic feel to it
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: that it should be , you know , soft to touch and can be moved around all nice . Um okay
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: on to {vocalsound} on to the next uh to the next slide .
Project Manager: Um , yeah . Just to let you know we'll probably be quite tight for time as well ,
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: because I think you've probably got a lot you'd like to say , I guess .
User Interface: Yeah , 'kay basically um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I can add pretty pictures to this . The um {disfmarker} Assuming the hand {vocalsound} the hand to be in about sort of this position , um {gap} hol uh holding the remote , the um the joystick unit should rest over the uh the joint of the f of the uh four finger so that it's directly accessible for the thumb . Um and it would need t there would need to be a {disfmarker} it would need to be articulated just below that so that it could be switched around for uh left or right handed users . So . You then have a grip section that can be more or less the same irrespective of handedness . You just have big {vocalsound} two big buttons that cover most of the area so it can {vocalsound} in the upper part , one for the four finger , one for the middle finger . Um , and that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Is this the joystick ?
User Interface: Th {vocalsound} this part here is the joystick . This would be the actual grip . Probably where you'd want to have the battery as well .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: That would be probably the bulkiest part . And you then have , at the uh at the bottom , the L_C_D_ , and this would need to be articulated as well . And basically I'd want this to rest here , right at the base of the wrist . So it would fit just nicely in the hand . And again , this part could be rotated , so it can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So {vocalsound} so so that it can be adjusted to either left or right handed user . Um {disfmarker} So the t uh the top function button in basic mode would be the on off switch and menu mode would be the enter button . And then the bottom function buttons switches between between modes . Um now programming it {vocalsound} actually thi this is one thing I've found with um the replacement remote control . Programming them can be a right pain . So I thought th the simplest way around that would be to have um a cable to connect it to the computer some {vocalsound} some fair iv {gap} fairly fairly simple software on the computer just so that you {disfmarker} on your {gap} computer just so that you could um pr {vocalsound} program it at a rather {vocalsound} in a rather more comfortable interface . And you could download programs for it from uh for uh T_V_s from all sort of main manufacturers . Um though you {disfmarker} i it would be necessary to have uh have a m uh have a {vocalsound} ha have a mode for programming it without the computer , uh just in case there are there are still people left out there who don't have them yet . Um . But uh . Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: That's that's my idea .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} Excellent , right . Um {vocalsound} uh .
Marketing: Mm . 'Kay .
Project Manager: File open .
Marketing: {vocalsound} We go .
Project Manager: Trend watching .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} So uh to gather my research , two basic methods . We compared uh whether people want the remote control to do a lot of stuff or they want it to look cool . And then we we research uh fashion trends in Europe , what's what's the new black ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: you know , as it goes . {vocalsound} Next slide please . Uh we found , in order of importance , people want the remote control to look cool more than they want it to to be cool . As in they want it to do a lot of good s they want it to look like it does a lot , and if it does do a lot that's a bonus , but they don't care so much , you know . {vocalsound} They want it to be {disfmarker} that's sounds a bit like a contradiction . Technology technical {disfmarker} technologically innovative . People want it to be that , but s still they care more about the way it looks than what it does . So like the interface is really important . {vocalsound} And easy to use , it it just so happens that uh from the second point to the third point is twice as important {disfmarker} I mean the second point is twice as important as the third point . People want it {disfmarker} I is it has to be cooler than easy to use , you know , if it has the newest features , even if it's difficult to use , {gap} prefer it to have the newest features . And if it's easy to use that's a bonus . {vocalsound} The fashion , now this is seems a bit odd to me , but fruit and veg is the new is the new black for furniture , for clothes , for shoes . How that relates to a remote control I don't know .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But I I see {vocalsound} I come on to that in the next in the next slide . Spongy . I've als I've been saying everything's the new black . Well spongy's the new black as well . So we have the choice between rubber and plastic . If it's the type of rubber that you can squeeze , you know , it's spongy , then {disfmarker} can I skip the rest ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh yeah , I forgot to mention that . The uh rubber material is the type of stress ball material , not just normal rubber .
Marketing: Okay . Okay , so
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Forgot to say that .
Marketing: kinda spongy material .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So um so my personal opinion ? {vocalsound} Um we want something fancy and techni technologically innovative , obviously . But what we what we need is something that looks like it's from the future that looks cool , that's that's different , you know , that's {disfmarker} everyone has a white remote control , black remote control , you need something cool . Like , titanium is cool but it's expensive . And maybe it's a bit of overkill for a remote control . Um now the fruit and veg options , either we we go in that direction or we stay totally away from it . Um {vocalsound} I mean the research did come up with fruit and veg , so maybe it is important for {disfmarker} it's the up to the interface guy . So if we stay away from it , s you know stay away from it , but if we're gonna go along with it then it doesn't necessarily have to be like an apple or something like that , or a kiwi fruit . It could be something like , I say potato peeler but I'm sure you guys have a have a much cooler idea than I do . So I think cool is the key . {vocalsound} Few questions about a spongy remote control . I've never seen one before . I've seen plastic remote controls . I think maybe they were {disfmarker} I don't know , back in the day when they first came up with remote controls , they had a reason for it being
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: sturdy , you know . For being strong and sturdy . So um if we want something strong and sturdy , I say stay with plastic or titanium , but if we go with spongy , we can stress that you can drop this as many times as you want , it doesn't matter , it's spongy material , it's not gonna break , you know . I just don't know how the L_E_D_ and the lights are gonna fit into a spongy material because it's not gonna be completely squeezable . So how do things fit it ? And if we are gonna use spongy , we can say it's long lasting , you know it's damage resistant and stuff like that , so . So just to summarise , people want stuff that's cool , that's that looks like it's cool , and if it is cool then that's a bonus {gap} doesn't have to be um people like fruit and veg . We can either go down that alley or stay totally away from it . People like spongy material . If we're gonna use spongy material we have to think of how practical it is , and how we can further promote that idea . And also , this was this year . So , things change all the time , every year you know they they always talk about this year , this is the new black . Well next year something else is gonna be the new black
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and we're stuck with last year's fruit and veg type stuff .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: 'Kay . That's me .
Project Manager: Well , um I would say that the most you could probably hope for is gaining a year's lead on most people anyway . You always have to bring out new designs , so if we can get next year then that's possibly a good place to start anyway . Um .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Seems like a a lot of the components could be off the shelf , so {disfmarker} I don't exactly what cost would be incurred . Um I can see your point about the number keypad , but I've {disfmarker} I would say that we can probably incorporate it into the menu system if you need to do traversal of a large number of channels .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: My feeling would be that even if at a later date this was to be taking control of um {gap} boxes as well um having the use of the L_C_D_ and the joystick would probably allow you to manipulate enough channel numbers for you to be {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , actually {gap} if you've got a lot of channels , the number keypad can be quite annoying as well , becau {vocalsound} {gap} it's you know if you're trying to remember what uh , you know , what number's the discovery channel or whatever . It's just irritating .
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's a good point .
User Interface: But if you h {vocalsound} but but but if you have a me but if you have a menu structure , then you can sub-group them .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: You can incorporate names into the menu . Okay .
User Interface: So you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Even news , music . Like they do on uh sky digital kinda .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So what it looks like to me is we'll use a large number of standard components , um , say something like um lithium ion battery , the kind that you find in most um small hand held devices now . Um {disfmarker} Looks like we {gap} going for a double curved design . Um I don't know what cost implications there are in that . Um , looks like we're pretty much decided on some kind of flexible rubber . Though I'd have to say {vocalsound} depending on how flexible it is , we might need to have some kind of inner frame .
User Interface: Yeah , I I would say definitely , I mean {vocalsound} I mean I mean the the idea of having it sort of articulated i th there would be basically two points of articulation . W um one below and one above the m the uh the main sort of grip . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do you think there's any way we could maybe remove the articulation ? I can see why it looks appealing , but it could be a weak point in um the structure , do you think ?
User Interface: Mm {gap} .
Project Manager: That would be a worry of mine .
Industrial Designer: If you're going with the fruit and veg thing , {vocalsound} looks like a banana .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I d I don't thi I don't think that it would be a {vocalsound} a structural weakness ,
Marketing: {gap} . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: F if you wanna design it that way . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I mean if you have a firm s sub-structure , you can then incorporate articulation into that . If you then have a sort of outer skin of mm flexible , spongy rubber then you have something that is you know very much you know organic , and I think would look rather co I mean {vocalsound} mi {vocalsound} rather cool . I mean my drawing there doesn't doesn't do it justice , it makes it {vocalsound} makes it look more a little bit more like a vibrator than a than a uh than a remote control ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but uh .
Project Manager: Yeah , we won't add that functionality .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay . Course not .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: However , one interesting point is , I don't know how serious you were there , but we {disfmarker} if we take some of the ideas {gap} why don't we make the damn thing yellow to incorporate the des the colour of the logo ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Sure , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: I dunno .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: It's an {disfmarker} certainly a different colour from your average um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Make it harder to lose , as well .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: That's true . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sure .
Project Manager: Was there anything in your research {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} The noise for when you lose the banana , um f yeah , for when you lose the remote control , {vocalsound} it could be like a a monkey noise or something like that , rather than a standard beep beep .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Y you know , you lose the monkey {disfmarker} the banana ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} monkey {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: y {vocalsound} you lose the banana , you press a button , and you hear like monkey screams or something like that to direct you towards the banana .
User Interface: I th uh I mean if it {disfmarker} I think that's something that could perhaps be programmable , though maybe have monkey as default . Um .
Marketing: S oh , I was gonna talk about the programmable remote control . Now I think it'd be cool if you had one remote control that could work with all T_V_s , you know you s you click a button and it finds the frequency that works with your particular television .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: But why you'd need to program it like as as a standard feature , I I don't know .
User Interface: Well basi {vocalsound} basically the um for {vocalsound} f for uh {disfmarker} I mean e each manufacturer will have a partic {vocalsound} will have a particular command set that uh the T_V_ responds to .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: It's not simply a matter of frequency .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: So um {vocalsound} usually what's done is you have this big booklet full of different possi {vocalsound} you'll have all of them sort of programmed in to the uh remote , and you'll have this little booklet of codes you then find your um ma uh find your manufacturer
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and try the different codes that
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: come under that manufacturer's name 'til you find the right one .
Marketing: That's because televisions , they don't give the remote control any type of feedback when you send it {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah , that's right .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: So that's that's quite annoying and we probably would still have to do that . But if we had um some sort of hook-up to your computer as an option , then if you've got a computer you can avoid that rather irritating thing .
Project Manager: An interesting point is that if the person doesn't have the computer , we can still make the process easier because instead of having to look up codes , maybe we can have it that one of the options they have is that they look up the name of the company on the L_C_D_
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: and then they maybe look up different names of um {vocalsound} different actual units that have been produced .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Or we have the remote control just go through them until it's like does this do the correct function , and such .
Marketing: Is it is it actually a book of names to digits , or is it like a few pages ?
User Interface: Um booklet . {vocalsound} Some pages .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I was just thinking , if we were to store this information , some type of mapping . This person probably need to use this feature like once , you know , when you first buy the remote control , or whenever they buy a new television , so
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Doesn't have to be used very often
Marketing: once every s
Project Manager: that's right , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah ,
User Interface: Yeah . But it's a but it's a nuisance .
Marketing: and it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: And it's a nuisance very close to the to um to actually purchasing it , so it's something that you're likely to be thinking about .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} If you {disfmarker} if there's w i if there's one in the shop that's {vocalsound} that says it can avoid much of that nuisance , you might be favourably inclined towards it . Um mm .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Okay , this {disfmarker} {gap} just to give us a rough idea of what we're meant to be doing for the next stage .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: I'm pretty sure that you got that anyway . This is the conceptual one . Um . I think we've come up {disfmarker} I think we've covered everything we need to here . Um I think we've decided on what , you know , decided on standard items for most of um rubber and such , so we're now looking at the detailed design and what we need to be doing for the next meeting . Um {disfmarker} So for example , um I'll just start at the top , you've got yourself and the Industrial Designer gonna be working quite closely at this stage 'cause it'll be hard not to , obviously . Um looking from {vocalsound} {disfmarker} prototyping of some des description using clay . Um I suppose you'll be told a lot more about that as uh {vocalsound} progress . Um {disfmarker} The user interface design , They're kind of {disfmarker} it looks they're {disfmarker} the idea I've pushed forward so far is maybe more of a physical one there , whereas {vocalsound} possibly be more interested in maybe how the L_C_D_'s going to incorporate , do you think ?
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Or do you s perceive that most the design design decisions still need to be based on the physical layout ?
User Interface: Um well I I think other than ge getting a sort of more aesthetically pleasing form for it , um mo most of the sort of layout design decisions are {vocalsound} are made , I would say . Um but then again , the um the menu structure to to a considerable extent that's gonna vary according to the model of television , and also any customisations that the user might wish to incorporate . So um and one of the nice things about having an L_C_D_ and a menu structure is that there is that flexibility to it .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm , that's very true . {vocalsound} Um . Okay . Um got product evaluation as well . Um .
Marketing: Yeah , you see I don't {disfmarker} some of these things kinda logically follow the others . How can {disfmarker} t product evaluation , doesn't that come after actually seen a product prototype .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I I think we'd be {disfmarker} yeah , no , it'd be more a case of how do we envisage us performing the product evaluation once we have a model to test with .
Marketing: Oh , that's the {disfmarker} okay , sure sure sure .
Project Manager: Um so it'd be a case of do you think that just bringing users in to have them test it out , uh maybe putting a certain number of products into the field in certain places which I suppose is quite similar .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Or just kind of hitting the streets and you know saying this is a new remote control , what do you think of the look of it ? Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay , sure . At this stage we still have no no target audience or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think the target audience is pretty much anybody under the age of say maybe sixty or something ludicrous .
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} the reason I'm saying that is we're just looking at a a replacement remote control , something that's stylish , so maybe you're even just maybe you're narrowing down your target audience simply by saying
Marketing: And it's stylish .
Project Manager: if they're buying it that often or they're maybe looking to replace something then , they've got a bit of free cash , so that puts them potentially in the younger age bracket .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Maybe even single , just for the reasons of um uh excess cash flow .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Although of course I mean at twenty five Euros , I don't think we're looking at charging the earth for the uh device .
Marketing: Yep . Okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Think that's well within the normal bracket . Um your idea of the U_S_B_ would I think would largely depend on the cost . U_S_B_'s definitely one of the cheapest interfaces out there , but it might push the cost of the overall unit up 'cause it would require not just the connection but the chip for communicating with the rest of the system . That one might have to be based on {disfmarker}
Marketing: Programmable memory as well .
Industrial Designer: The U_S_B_ for which ?
Marketing: For the remote control .
Project Manager: The the idea was that maybe it could connect up for um allowing a software interface on the P_C_ for a larger programming
Industrial Designer: Oh right , okay .
Project Manager: due to the fact that we've gone for such a nice , easy minimal design , normally . Um .
Marketing: We've w definitely talking some type of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But didn't they just say it's just for T_V_ , or are we gonna {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's just for T_V_ , but for
Marketing: Different .
Project Manager: programming it to use your T_V_ , you might hook it up to the P_C_ .
Industrial Designer: Okay , yeah .
Project Manager: I'm not sure , but I'm thinking maybe that the additional cost of the U_S_B_ might be prohibitive .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: We don't know unless {disfmarker} it would make sense to .
User Interface: Yeah ,
Marketing: But you're gonna need some type of flash memory or something .
User Interface: I mean it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well something that doesn't {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: you wouldn't have to redo the whole thing once the batteries are changed , you know , once you turn off the power .
User Interface: Yeah . The other thing I mean it I mean it would need to ha {vocalsound} it would need to have um some sort of on board memory anyway .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Um f {vocalsound} for one {vocalsound} for one thing because I do think that the menu system should be um uh I mean although you know , it's not going to be terribly complicated if it's just controlling one device , the menu system ought to be um o ought to be customisable and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Different languages , uh different skins and stuff like that .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . W
User Interface: Mm-hmm . How uh how uh how you want say the um the the menu structure for flicking through channels if you've got lots of channels . That sort of thing .
Marketing: Sure . {vocalsound} I if it was customisable as in different languages and stuff , that does open {disfmarker} it is supposed to be international , right ? So .
Project Manager: It would make sense to . I would say to .
Marketing: It would make sense if you could {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um and we'd better be careful about the time as well . We've already had the five minute warning ,
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: so . Um . I would say yeah . International would make sense . Um you're gonna look at product evaluation . I'm I'd better start writing up a hell of a lot of crap . Um you're gonna look a bit more at the kind of the physical make up you say .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um looks like we're gonna need a maybe a kind of prototype in clay . {vocalsound} Uh we'll see how that goes . Um .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Are we going to be supplied with the clay is what I want to know .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So um
User Interface: Where is the clay ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: do {disfmarker} I think we've got an idea of where we need to go for the next meeting , would you say ?
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {gap} they're going with the fashion thing , like the design , spongy rubber .
Marketing: The fruit and veg . This one .
User Interface: Mm . {vocalsound} I th I think I would largely want to actually steer clear of the whole sort of fruit and veg thing .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , I would s that would be my my feeling .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Bu {vocalsound} but um but the spongy idea I like . I like it a lot .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We seem to have quite a general consensus that the idea of the the r rubber could be quite {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: I {gap} having it i having it sort of br bright yellow I think that's quite a good idea , though maybe we could have options for colours as well . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {gap} and again this has the advantage of being harder to lose .
Marketing: Sure . I mean we are trying to promote a remote control , but we wanna keep the company brand as well ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: so .
Project Manager: So we always need to remember that somewhere we're meant to be getting the slogan on . Possibly I'm think I'm not sure but I'm seeing a little bit of space around maybe the joystick area which could be used . Um .
User Interface: Mm . Yeah . I was {vocalsound} like like I said before I I think we should have the R_R_ on the uh on the top function button .
Project Manager: Okay . And I think that says it all really .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think so too .
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: Sa
Project Manager: See everybody in a half hour . | |
doc_145 | PhD E: OK .
Professor B: OK , so {pause} We {disfmarker} we had a meeting with , uh {disfmarker} with Hynek , um , in {disfmarker} in which , uh , uh , Sunil and Stephane , uh {vocalsound} summarized where they were and {disfmarker} and , uh , talked about where we were gonna go . So that {disfmarker} that happened sort of mid - week . Uh .
PhD E: D did {disfmarker} did you guys get your code pushed together ?
PhD D: Oh , yeah . Yeah . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it was updated yesterday ,
PhD E: Cool .
PhD D: right ?
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: You probably received the mail .
PhD E: Oh , right , I saw {disfmarker} I saw the note .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: What was the update ?
PhD A: What was the update ? So there is th then {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} all the new features that go in .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: The , um , noise suppression , the re - synthesis of speech after suppression . These are the {disfmarker}
PhD E: Is the , um {disfmarker} the CVS mechanism working {pause} well ?
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD E: Are {disfmarker} are people , uh , up at OGI grabbing code uh , via that ?
PhD D: Uh , I don't think {disfmarker} I don't think {disfmarker}
PhD E: Or {disfmarker} ?
PhD A: I don't know if they use it , but .
PhD D: Yeah , I I don't think anybody up there is like {pause} working on it right now .
PhD E: Uh - huh . Mmm .
Professor B: I think it more likely that what it means is that when Sunil is up there {vocalsound} he will grab it .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah . So right now nobody 's working on Aurora there .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: They 're {disfmarker} Yeah . They 're working on a different task .
PhD E: I see . I see .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD E: OK .
Professor B: But what 'll happen is {disfmarker} is he 'll go back up there and , uh , Pratibha will come back from {disfmarker} from , uh , the east coast . Uh .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And , uh {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and I guess actually , uh , after Eurospeech for a little bit , uh , he 'll go up there too . So , actually everybody {vocalsound} who 's working on it {comment} will be up there for at least a little while . So they 'll remotely access it {vocalsound} from there .
PhD E: So has {disfmarker} Has anybody tried remotely accessing the CVS using , uh , uh , SSH ?
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: Um , I don't know if Hari did that or {disfmarker} You d
PhD D: I {comment} can actually do it today . I mean , I can just log into {disfmarker}
PhD E: Have you tried it yet ?
PhD D: No , I didn't . So I I 'll try it today .
PhD E: OK .
Professor B: Good idea .
PhD A: Actually I {disfmarker} I tried wh while {disfmarker} when I installed the {pause} repository , I tried from Belgium .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: I logged in there and I tried {pause} to import {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah ? It worked good ?
PhD A: Yeah , it works .
PhD E: Oh , good !
PhD A: But it 's {disfmarker} So , right now it 's the mechanism with SSH .
PhD D: Oh .
PhD E: Great !
PhD A: I don't {pause} s I didn't set up {disfmarker} You can also set up a CVS server {pause} on a new port . It 's like well {pause} uh , a main server , or d You can do a CVS server .
PhD E: Yeah . Right . Then that 's using the CVS password mechanism and all that ,
PhD A: But . Yeah , right .
PhD E: right ?
PhD A: But I didn't do that because I was not sure about {pause} security problems . I {disfmarker} I would have to {disfmarker}
PhD E: So w when you came in from Belgian {disfmarker} {comment} Belgium , using SSH , uh , was it asking you for your own {pause} password into ICSI ? So if yo you can only do that if you have an account at ICSI ?
PhD A: Right . Yeah .
PhD E: OK .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD E: Cuz there is an {disfmarker} a way to set up anonymous CVS right ?
PhD A: Yeah , you ha in this way you ca you have to set up a CVS server but then , yeah , you can access it .
PhD E: So that {disfmarker} Oh , OK .
PhD A: you {disfmarker} you can set up priorities .
PhD E: So the anonymous mechanism {disfmarker}
PhD A: You can access them and mostly if you {disfmarker} if y the set the server is set up like this .
PhD E: OK . Because a lot of the open source stuff works with anonymous CVS and I 'm just wondering {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , for our transcripts we may want to do that .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: Uh .
Professor B: Yeah , for this stuff I don't think we 're {pause} quite up to that . I mean , we 're still so much in development .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Yeah ,
Professor B: We want to have just the insiders .
PhD E: yeah , yeah . Oh , I wasn't suggesting for this . I 'm {pause} thinking of the Meeting Recorder {comment} stuff
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: but . Yeah . OK . Cool .
Professor B: Yeah . So , uh {disfmarker}
PhD E: What 's new ?
Professor B: Well , I mean , I think maybe the thing to me might be {disfmarker} I me I 'm sure you 've just been working on {disfmarker} on , uh , details of that since the meeting , right ? And so {disfmarker}
PhD A: Mmm , since the meeting , well , I {disfmarker} I 've been {disfmarker} I 've been train training a new VAD and a new {pause} feature net .
Professor B: That was {disfmarker} that was Tuesday . OK .
PhD A: So they should be ready . Um .
Professor B: But I guess maybe the thing {disfmarker} since you weren't {disfmarker} yo you guys weren't at that {disfmarker} that meeting , might be just {disfmarker} just to , um , sort of recap , uh , the {disfmarker} the conclusions of the meeting .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Oh , great .
Professor B: So .
PhD E: You 're talking about the meeting with Hynek ?
Professor B: Yeah . Cuz that was sort of , uh {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we 'd sort of been working up to that , that {disfmarker} that , uh , he would come here this week and {disfmarker} and we would sort of {disfmarker}
PhD E: Uh - huh .
Professor B: Since he 's going out of town like now , and I 'm going out town in a couple weeks , uh , and time is marching , sort of , given all the mu many wonderful things we could be working on , what {disfmarker} what will we actually focus on ?
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And , uh {disfmarker} and what do we freeze ? And , you know , what do we {disfmarker} ? So , um . I mean , this {pause} software that these guys created was certainly a {disfmarker} a key part . So then there 's something central and there aren't at least a bunch of different versions going off in {disfmarker} in ways that {pause} differ {pause} trivially . Uh , um , and , um ,
PhD E: Yeah . That 's {disfmarker} that 's nice .
Professor B: and then within that , I guess the idea was to freeze a certain set of options for now , to run it , uh , a particular way , and decide on what things are gonna be experimented with , as opposed to just experimenting with everything . So keep a certain set of things constant . So , um . Uh , maybe describe roughly what {disfmarker} what we are keeping constant for now , or {disfmarker} ?
PhD A: Yeah . Well . So we 've been working like six weeks on {disfmarker} on the noise compensation and we end up with something that seems reasonable . Um .
PhD E: Are you gonna use {disfmarker} which of the two techniques ?
PhD A: So finally it 's {disfmarker} it 's , um , Wiener filtering on FFT bins . And it uses , uh , two steps , smoothing of the transfer function , the first step , that 's along time , which use recursion . And {vocalsound} after this step there is a further smoothing along frequency , which use a sliding window of twenty FFT bins . Mmm . And , uh {disfmarker}
PhD E: So this is on the {disfmarker} uh , before any mel scaling has been done ?
PhD A: Yeah , yeah .
PhD E: This is {disfmarker}
PhD A: It was {disfmarker}
Professor B: This {disfmarker} this smoothing is done on the estimate , um , of what you 're going to subtract ? Or on the thing that has already had something subtracted ?
PhD A: Yeah . Uh , {vocalsound} it 's on the transfer function . So {disfmarker}
Professor B: Oh , it 's on the transfer function for the Wiener filter .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah , OK .
PhD A: Yeah , so basically we tried {vocalsound} different configuration within this idea . We tried u u applying this on mel bands , having spectral subtraction instead of wiener filtering . Um . Well , finally we end up with {pause} this configuration that works , uh , quite well . So we are going to fix this for the moment and work on the other aspects of {vocalsound} the whole system .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: So {disfmarker}
Professor B: Actually , let me int eh , Dave isn't here to talk about it , but let me just interject . This module , in principle , i I mean , you would know whether it 's {vocalsound} true in fact , is somewhat independent from the rest of it . I mean , because you {disfmarker} you re - synthesize speech , right ?
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So , um . Uh , well you don't {disfmarker} I guess you don't re - synthesize speech , but you could {disfmarker}
PhD A: We {disfmarker} we do not fo
Professor B: Uh , but you could .
PhD A: Well {disfmarker} well , we do , but we don't {disfmarker} don't re - synthesize . In {disfmarker} in the program we don't re - synthesize and then re - analyze once again . We just use the clean FFT bins .
Professor B: But you have a re - synthesized thing that you {disfmarker} that 's an {disfmarker} an option here .
PhD A: This is an option that {disfmarker} then you can {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah , I gu I guess my point is that , um , i in some of the work he 's doing in reverberation , one of the things that we 're finding is that , uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} for the {disfmarker} for an artificial situation , we can just deal with the reverberation and his techniques work really well . But for the real situation uh , problem is , is that you don't just have reverberation , you have reverberation in noise . And if you don't include that in the model , it doesn't work very well . So in fact it might be a very nice thing to do , to just take the noise removal part of it and put that in front of what he 's looking at . And , uh , generate new files or whatever , and {disfmarker} and , uh , uh {disfmarker} and then do the reverberation part .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So it 's {disfmarker}
PhD D: Mmm .
Professor B: Anyway .
PhD E: So Dave hasn't {pause} tried that yet ?
Professor B: No , no . He 's {disfmarker} I mean , e
PhD E: I guess he 's busy with {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah , prelims , right .
Grad C: Pre - prelim hell .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: So .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: Uh , but {disfmarker} but , you know , that 'll {disfmarker} uh , it 's clear that we , uh {disfmarker} we are not {disfmarker} with the real case that we 're looking at , we can't just look at reverberation in isolation because the interaction between that and noise is {disfmarker} is considerable . And that 's I mean , in the past we 've looked at , uh , and this is hard enough , the interaction between channel effects and {disfmarker} and , uh {disfmarker} and additive noise , uh , so convolutional effects and {disfmarker} and additive effects . And that 's hard enough . I mean , I don't think we really {disfmarker} I mean , we 're trying to deal with that . In a sense that 's what we 're trying to deal with in this Aurora task . And we have , uh , the , uh , uh , LDA stuff that in principle is doing something about convolutional effects . And we have the noise suppression that 's doing something about noise . Uh , even that 's hard enough . And {disfmarker} and the on - line normalization as well , in that s category . i i There 's all these interactions between these two and that 's part of why these guys had to work so hard on {disfmarker} on juggling everything around . But now when you throw in the reverberation , it 's even worse , because not only do you have these effects , but you also have some long time effects . And , um , so Dave has something which , uh , is doing some nice things under some conditions with {disfmarker} with long time effects but when it 's {disfmarker} when there 's noise there too , it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's pretty hard . So we have to start {disfmarker} Since any {disfmarker} almost any real situation is gonna have {disfmarker} uh , where you have the microphone distant , is going to have both things , we {disfmarker} we actually have to think about both at the same time .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: So , um {disfmarker} So there 's this noise suppression thing , which is sort of worked out and then , uh , maybe you should just continue telling what {disfmarker} what else is in the {disfmarker} the form we have .
PhD A: Yeah , well , {vocalsound} the , um , the other parts of the system are the {disfmarker} the blocks that were already present before and that we did not modify a lot .
Professor B: So that 's {disfmarker} again , that {disfmarker} that 's the Wiener filtering , followed by , uh {disfmarker} uh , that 's done at the FFT level . Then {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah , th then the mel filter bank ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: then the log operation ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor B: The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the filtering is done in the frequency domain ?
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah , OK . And then the mel and then the log , and then the
PhD A: Then the LDA filter ,
Professor B: LDA filter .
PhD A: mmm , then the downsampling ,
Professor B: And then uh downsample ,
PhD A: DCT ,
Professor B: DCT ,
PhD A: then , um , on - line normalization ,
Professor B: on - line norm ,
PhD A: followed by {pause} upsampling . Then finally , we compute delta and we put the neural network also .
Professor B: Right , and then in parallel with {disfmarker} an {disfmarker} a neural net . And then following neural net , some {disfmarker} probably some orthogonalization .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: Uh {disfmarker} Um .
PhD A: And finally frame dropping , which um , {vocalsound} would be a neural network also , used for estimated silence probabilities . And the input of this neural network would be somewhere between log {pause} mel bands or one of the earlier stages of the processing .
Professor B: Mm - hmm . So that 's sort of {disfmarker} most of this stuff is {disfmarker} yeah , is operating parallel with this other stuff .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yeah . So the things that we , um , uh , I guess we sort of {disfmarker} uh , There 's {disfmarker} there 's some , uh , neat ideas for {vocalsound} V A So , I mean , in {disfmarker} I think there 's sort of like {disfmarker} There 's a bunch of tuning things to improve stuff . There 's questions about {pause} various places where there 's an exponent , if it 's the right exponent , or {pause} ways that we 're estimating noise , that we can improve estimating noise . And there 's gonna be a host of those . But structurally it seemed like the things {disfmarker} the main things that {disfmarker} that we brought up that , uh , are {disfmarker} are gonna need to get worked on seriously are , uh , uh , a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a significantly better VAD , uh , putting the neural net on , um , which , you know , we haven't been doing anything with , the , uh , neural net at the end there , and , uh , the , uh , {vocalsound} opening up the second front . Uh .
PhD E: The other half of the channel ?
Professor B: Yeah , yeah , I mean , cuz we {disfmarker} we have {disfmarker} we have , uh , uh , half the {disfmarker} the , uh , data rate that they allow .
PhD E: That what you mean ?
Professor B: And , uh , so the initial thing which came from , uh , the meeting that we had down south was , uh , that , um , we 'll initially just put in a mel spectrum as the second one . It 's , you know , {pause} cheap , easy . Uh . There 's a question about exactly how we do it . We probably will go to something better later , but the initial thing is that cepstra and spectra behave differently ,
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: so . Um , {comment} I think Tony Robinson used to do {disfmarker} I was saying this before . I think he used to do mel , uh , spectra and mel cepstra . He used them as alternate features . Put them together .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: Uh .
PhD E: So if you took the system the way it is now , the way it 's fro you 're gonna freeze it , and it ran it on the last evaluation , where it would it be ?
PhD A: Mm - hmm . It , uh ,
PhD E: In terms of ranking ?
PhD A: Ri - right now it 's second .
PhD D: Second .
PhD A: Um .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Although you {disfmarker} you know , you haven't tested it actually on the German and Danish , have you ?
PhD A: No , we didn't . No , um .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: So on the ones that you did test it on it would have been second ?
Professor B: Yeah . Would it {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} When you 're saying second , you 're comparing to the numbers that the , uh {disfmarker} that the best system before got on , uh {disfmarker} also without German and Danish ?
PhD A: Yeah , yeah .
Professor B: Yeah , OK .
PhD D: And th the ranking actually didn't change after the German and Danish . So , yeah .
Professor B: Well ranking didn't before , but I 'm just asking where this is to where theirs was without the German and Danish ,
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: Mmm .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: right ?
PhD D: Yeah , yeah .
Professor B: So .
PhD E: Where {disfmarker} where {disfmarker} where were we actually on the last test ?
Professor B: Oh , we were also esp essentially second , although there were {disfmarker} there were {disfmarker} I mean , we had a couple systems and they had a couple systems . And so , I guess by that {pause} we were third , but I mean , there were two systems that were pretty close , that came from the same place .
PhD E: Uh - huh . I see . OK .
Professor B: Uh , so institutionally we were {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we were second , with , uh , the third {disfmarker} third system .
PhD E: We 're {disfmarker} so this second that you 're saying now is system - wide second ?
Professor B: See {disfmarker} Uh , no I think it 's also institutional , isn't it ?
PhD E: Still institutionally second ?
Professor B: Right ? I mean , I think both of their systems probably {disfmarker}
PhD A: Uh , we are between their two systems . So
Professor B: Oh , are we ?
PhD A: I {disfmarker} It is a triumph .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: Is it ?
PhD D: Their {disfmarker} their first system is fifty - four point something . And , uh , we are fifty - three point something .
PhD A: But everything is {pause} within the range of one {disfmarker} one percent .
PhD D: And their second system is also fifty - three point something . Yeah , one percent .
Professor B: Yeah , so {disfmarker} so basically they 're all {disfmarker} they 're all pretty close .
PhD E: Oh , wow !
PhD A: So .
PhD E: That 's very close .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: And {disfmarker} and , {vocalsound} um , you know , in some sense we 're all doing fairly similar things . Uh , I mean , one could argue about the LDA and so forth but I {disfmarker} I think , you know , in a lot of ways we 're doing very similar things . But what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker}
PhD E: So how did they fill up this {disfmarker} all these {disfmarker} these bits ? I mean , if we 're u
Professor B: Um , why are we using half ? Well , so you could {disfmarker} you c
PhD E: Yeah . Or how are they using more than half , I guess maybe is what I {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah , so I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} uh , you guys are closer to it than me , so correct me if I 'm wrong , but I {disfmarker} I think that what 's going on is that in {disfmarker} in both cases , some kind of normalization is done to deal with convola convolutional effects . Uh , they have some cepstral {pause} modification ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: right ? In our case we have a couple things . We have the on - line normalization and then we have the LDA RASTA . And {pause} they seem to comple complement each other enough and be different enough that they both seem to help {disfmarker} help us . But in any event , they 're both doing the same sort of thing . But there 's one difference . The LDA RASTA , uh , throws away high modulation frequencies . And they 're not doing that .
PhD E: So th So {disfmarker}
Professor B: So that if you throw away high modulation frequencies , then you can downsample .
Grad C: Get down .
PhD E: I see . I see .
Professor B: So {disfmarker}
PhD E: So what if you didn't {disfmarker} So do you explicitly downsample then ? Do we explicitly downsample ?
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD E: And what if we didn't do that ? Would we get worse performance ?
PhD A: Um {pause} Yeah , not better , not worse .
Professor B: I think it doesn't affect it , does it ?
PhD E: I see . OK .
Professor B: Yeah . So I think the thing is , since we 're not evidently throwing away useful information , let 's try to put in some useful information .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor B: And , uh , so I {disfmarker} you know , we {disfmarker} we 've found in a lot of ways for quite a while that having a second stream uh , helps a lot . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's put in , and you know , it may even end up with mel spectrum even though I 'm saying I think we could do much better , just because it 's simple .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Um . And you know , in the long run having something everybody will look at and say , " oh , yeah , I understand " , is {disfmarker} is very helpful .
PhD E: So you would {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} You 're thinking to put the , uh , mel spectrum in before any of the noise removal stuff ? or after ?
Professor B: Well , that 's a question . I mean , we were talking about that . It looks like it 'd be straightforward to {disfmarker} to , uh , remove the noise , um , and , uh ,
PhD E: Cuz that happens before the mel conversion , right ?
Professor B: Yeah . So , I mean , to do it after the mel conversion {disfmarker} uh , after the noise removal , after the mel conversion . There 's even a question in my mind anyhow of whether th you should take the log or not . Uh . I sort of think you should , but I don't know .
PhD A: What about norm normalizing also ?
Professor B: Right . Uh . Well , but normalizing spectra instead of cepstra ?
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah , probably . Some kind would be good . You know ? I would think .
PhD D: Well , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} so it actually makes it dependent on the overall energy of the {disfmarker} uh , the frame .
Professor B: If you do or don't normalize ?
PhD D: If yo if you don't normalize and {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you don't normalize .
Professor B: Right . Yes , so I mean , one would think that you would want to normalize . But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} w w My thought is , uh , particularly if you take the log , try it . And then if {disfmarker} if normalization helps , then y you have something to compare against , and say , " OK , this much effect " {disfmarker} I mean , you don't want to change six things and then see what happens . You want to change them one at a time .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So adding this other stream in , that 's simple in some way . And then {pause} saying , oh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} particularly because we 've found in the past there 's all these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these different results you get with slight modifications of how you do normalization . Normalization 's a very tricky , sensitive thing and {pause} you learn a lot . So , I would think you would wanna {pause} have some baseline that says , " OK , we don't normalize , this is what we get " , when we do this normalization , when we do that normalization . But {disfmarker} but the other question is {disfmarker} So I think ultimately we 'll wind up doing some normalization . I agree .
PhD E: So this second stream , will it add latency to the system
Professor B: No , it 's in parallel .
PhD E: or {disfmarker} ?
Grad C: Para
Professor B: We 're not talking about computation time here .
PhD E: S
Professor B: We 're ta I think we 're pretty far out .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: So it 's just in terms of what data it 's depending on . It 's depending on the same data as the other .
PhD E: Same data .
Professor B: So it 's in parallel .
PhD E: OK .
Professor B: Uh - huh .
Grad C: So with this , uh , new stream would you train up a VAD on both {disfmarker} both features , somehow ?
PhD D: No , I guess the VAD has its own set of features .
Grad C: OK . that 's {disfmarker}
PhD D: I mean , which could be this {disfmarker} one of these streams , or it can be something derived from {pause} these streams .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad C: OK .
PhD A: And there is also the idea of using TRAPS , maybe , for the VAD , which , um {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah , that 's also {disfmarker}
PhD A: Well , Pratibha apparently showed , when , she was at IBM , that it 's a good idea . So .
Grad C: Would {disfmarker} would that fit on the handset , or {disfmarker} ? Oh !
PhD A: I have no idea .
Grad C: OK .
PhD D: Well , it has t I mean the {disfmarker} th
PhD A: It would have to fit but {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah , if it has to fit the delays and all this stuff .
Professor B: Well , there 's the delays and the storage ,
Grad C: OK .
Professor B: yeah . But I don't think the storage is so big for that .
Grad C: Right .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: I think th the biggest we 've run into for storage is the neural net . Right ?
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah . Um . And so I guess the issue there is , are we {disfmarker} are we using neural - net - based TRAPS , and {disfmarker} and how big are they ? So that 'll {disfmarker} that 'll be , you know , an issue .
Grad C: Oh , right .
Professor B: Maybe they can be little ones .
Grad C: Yeah . Cuz sh Right .
Professor B: Mini - TRAPS .
Grad C: Cuz she also does the , uh {disfmarker} the correlation - based , uh , TRAPS , with without the neural net , just looking at the correlation between {disfmarker}
Professor B: Right . And maybe for VAD they would be OK . Yeah . Yeah .
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor B: That 's true .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: Or a simple neural net , right ? I mean , the thing is , if you 're doing correlation , you 're just doing a simple {disfmarker} uh , uh {disfmarker} uh , dot product , you know , with some weights which you happened to learn from this {disfmarker} learn from the data .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And so , uh , putting a nonlinearity on it is , {pause} you know , not that big a deal . It certainly doesn't take much space .
Grad C: Mm - hmm . Right .
Professor B: So , uh , the question is , how complex a function do you need ? Do you need to have an added layer or something ? In which case , uh , potentially , you know , it could be big . So .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So , uh , uh {disfmarker} So what 's next ? Maybe s s remind us .
PhD E: So the meeting with Hynek that you guys just had was to decide exactly what you were gonna freeze in this system ? Is that {disfmarker} ? Or was there {disfmarker} ? Were you talking about what t new stuff , or {disfmarker} ?
Professor B: What to freeze and then what to do after we froze .
PhD E: Mmm .
Professor B: Yeah . And like I was saying , I think the {disfmarker} you know , the basic directions are , uh , uh {disfmarker} I mean , there 's lots of little things , such as improve the noise estimator but the bigger things are adding on the neural net and , uh , the second stream . And then , uh , improving the VAD . Uh . So .
PhD D: So , I 'll , um {disfmarker} I 'll actually {disfmarker} after the meeting I 'll add the second stream to the VAD and maybe I 'll start with the feature net in that case . It 's like , you 're looking at the VAD , right ?
PhD A: Uh , yeah . I I 've a new feature net ready also .
PhD D: I 'll {disfmarker} For the VAD ?
PhD A: No , uh . Well p two network , one VAD and one {pause} feature net .
PhD D: Oh , you already have it ?
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: OK , so just figure how to take the features from the final {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD D: OK .
PhD A: Um . But , yeah , I think there are plenty of issues to work on for the feature net @ @ .
Grad C: Feature net .
PhD E: What about the , um {disfmarker} uh , the new part of the evaluation , the , uh , Wall Street Journal part ?
Professor B: Right . Right . Um . Have you ever {disfmarker} ? Very good question . Have you ever worked with the Mississippi State h uh , software ?
PhD A: Sorry .
PhD E: No . Not yet .
Professor B: Oh . Well you {disfmarker} you may be called upon to help , uh , uh , on account of , uh , all the work in this stuff here has been , uh , with small vocabulary .
PhD E: OK . Mm - hmm . So what {disfmarker} how is the , uh , interaction supposed to happen ? Uh , I remember the last time we talked about this , it was sort of up in the air whether they were going to be taking , uh , people 's features and then running them or they were gonna give the system out or {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD E: Oh , so they 're gonna just deliver a system basically .
PhD D: Yeah , yeah .
Professor B: Do we already have it ?
PhD D: Yeah , th I {disfmarker} I guess it 's almost ready .
PhD E: Uh - huh .
PhD D: So {disfmarker} That 's what {disfmarker} So they have released their , uh , document , describing the system .
Professor B: Maybe you could , uh , point it {pause} at Chuck ,
PhD E: I see .
Professor B: because , I mean {disfmarker}
PhD D: Sure .
PhD E: So we 'll have to grab this over CVS or something ?
PhD D: It - no , it 's just downloadable from their {disfmarker} from their web site .
PhD E: Is that how they do it ? OK .
Professor B: Cuz one of the things that might be helpful , if you 've {disfmarker} if you 've got time in all of this is , is if {disfmarker} if these guys are really focusing on improving , uh , all the digit stuff , uh , maybe {disfmarker} and you got the front - end from them , maybe you could do the runs for the {disfmarker}
PhD E: OK . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and {disfmarker} and , you know , iron out hassles that {disfmarker} that you have to , uh , tweak Joe about or whatever ,
PhD E: Sure .
Professor B: because you 're more experienced with running the large vocabulary stuff .
PhD E: OK .
Professor B: S
PhD D: So I 'll point you to the web site and the mails corresponding . So I
PhD E: And it {disfmarker} but it 's not ready yet , the system ?
PhD D: Uh , I {disfmarker} I think they are still , uh , tuning something on that . So they 're like , d they 're varying different parameters like the insertion penalty and other stuff , and then seeing what 's the performance .
PhD E: Are those going to be parameters that are frozen , nobody can change ? Or {disfmarker} ?
PhD D: Uh , w I guess there is , uh , time during which people are gonna make suggestions .
PhD E: Oh , but everybody 's gonna have to use the same values .
PhD D: After that .
PhD E: Oh ! Interesting .
PhD D: Yeah , I guess .
PhD E: OK .
PhD D: So these sugges these {disfmarker} this , uh , period during which people are gonna make suggestions is to know whether it is actually biased towards any set of features or {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah , so I th th certainly the thing that I would want to know about is whether we get really hurt , uh , on in insertion penalty , language model , scaling , sorts of things .
PhD E: Using our features .
Professor B: Yeah , yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: Uh , in which case , um , H Hari or Hynek will need to , you know , push the case {pause} more about {disfmarker} about this .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Um .
PhD E: And we may be able to revisit this idea about , you know , somehow modifying our features to work with {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yes . In this case , that 's right .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: That 's right . Um , some of that may be , uh , a last minute rush thing because if the {disfmarker} if our features are changing {disfmarker} Uh .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: Uh . But , um . Yeah , the other thing is that even though it 's months away , uh , it 's starting to seem to me now like November fifteenth is right around the corner . And , um , if they haven't decided things like this , like what the parameters are gonna be for this , uh , when " deciding " is not just somebody deciding . I mean , in fact there should be some understanding behind the , uh , {vocalsound} deciding , which means some experiments and {disfmarker} and so forth . It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it seems pretty tight to me .
PhD E: So wha what 's the significance of November fifteenth ?
Professor B: That 's when the evaluation is .
PhD E: OK .
Professor B: Yeah . So , yeah , so after {disfmarker} But , you know , they may even decide in the end to push it off . It wouldn't , you know , entirely surprise me . But , uh , due to other reasons , like some people are going away , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm hoping it 's not pushed off for {vocalsound} a l a long while . That would be , uh {disfmarker} put us in an awkward position . But {disfmarker} Anyway .
PhD E: OK .
Professor B: Great . Yeah , I think that 'll be helpful . There 's {disfmarker} there 's not anybody OGI currently who 's {disfmarker} who 's , uh , working with this and {disfmarker} and
PhD E: Is {disfmarker} is this part of the evaluation just a small part , or ho how important is this to the overall {disfmarker} ?
Professor B: I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's , um {disfmarker} it depends how badly {vocalsound} you do . I mean , I think that it {disfmarker} it is {disfmarker} Uh .
PhD D: b
PhD E: This is one of those things that will be debated afterwards ?
Professor B: Yeah . Well , I mean , it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} Conceptually , it {disfmarker} my impression , again , you guys correct me if I 'm wrong , but {pause} my impression is that , um , they want it as a double check . That you haven't come across {disfmarker} you haven't invented features which are actually gonna do badly for a {disfmarker} a significantly different task , particularly one with larger vocabulary . And , um , but it 's not the main emphasis .
PhD E: Mmm .
Professor B: I mean , the truth is , most of the applications they 're looking at are pretty small vocabulary .
PhD E: Mmm .
Professor B: So it 's {disfmarker} it 's a double check . So they 'll probably assign it some sort of low weight .
PhD E: Seems to me that if it 's a double check , they should give you a one or a zero . Y you passed the threshold or you didn't pass the threshold , and they shouldn't even care about what the score is .
Professor B: Yeah . But , I mean , we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll see what they come up with . Uh , but in {disfmarker} in the current thing , for instance , where you have this well - matched , moderately - matched , and {disfmarker} and mis highly - mismatched , uh , the emphasis is somewhat on the {disfmarker} on the well - matched , but it 's only a {disfmarker} a marginal ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: right ? It 's like forty , thirty - five , twenty - five , or something like that . So you still {disfmarker} if you were way , way off on the highly - mismatched , it would have a big effect .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And , um , it wouldn't surprise me if they did something like that with this . So again , if you 're {disfmarker} if you get {disfmarker} If it doesn't help you much , uh , for noisy versions of this {disfmarker} of large vocabulary data , then , uh , you know , it may not hurt you that much .
PhD E: Oh .
Professor B: But if it {disfmarker} if you don't {disfmarker} if it doesn't help you much at all , um , or to put it another way , if it helps some people a lot more than it helps other people , uh , if their strategies do , then {disfmarker}
PhD E: Mm - hmm . So is this , uh {disfmarker} ? Uh , Guenter was putting a bunch of Wall Street Journal data on our disks .
Professor B: That 's it .
PhD E: So that 's the data that we 'll be running on ?
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: I see . OK .
Professor B: Yeah . So {pause} we have the data , just not the recognizer . OK .
PhD E: So this test may take quite a while to run , then . May - judging by the amount of data that he was putting on .
Professor B: Uh , well there 's training and test , right ?
PhD E: I {disfmarker} I guess , I 'm not sure .
Professor B: No , I mean , if it 's like the other things , there 's {disfmarker} there 's data for training the H M Ms and {disfmarker} and data for testing it .
PhD E: I just {disfmarker}
Professor B: So I wouldn't {disfmarker} So it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}
PhD E: OK . So there 's {disfmarker}
Professor B: So , training the recognizer , but , um Um . But I think it 's trained on clean and {disfmarker} Is it trained on clean and {disfmarker} and test on {disfmarker} ?
PhD D: The Wall Street ?
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: Apparently , no . It 's training on a range between ten and twenty DB , I think , and testing between five and fifteen .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
PhD A: That 's what I got {pause} on {disfmarker}
Professor B: OK .
PhD D: It 's , uh {disfmarker} It 's like a medium {disfmarker} medium - mismatch condition , sort of .
PhD A: Yeah ,
Professor B: I see .
PhD A: and {disfmarker} So the noise is {disfmarker} There is a range of different noises also {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} which are selected randomly and added randomly , uh , to the files . And there are noises that are different from the noises used {pause} on TI - digits .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah . I mean , I wouldn't imagine that the amount of testing data was that huge . They probably put training {disfmarker} uh , almost certain they put training data there too . Maybe not . So . That 's that . Anybody have anything else ?
PhD E: Uh , one {disfmarker} one last question on that . When did they estimate that they would have that system available for download ?
PhD D: Um , I guess {disfmarker} I guess one {disfmarker} some preliminary version is already there .
PhD E: Oh , so there 's w something you can download to just learn ?
PhD D: Yeah , it 's already there . Yeah .
PhD E: OK ,
PhD D: But they 're actually parallel - y doing some modifications also , I think .
PhD E: good .
PhD D: So I guess the f final system will be frozen by middle of , like , one more week maybe .
PhD E: OK .
Professor B: Oh , well that 's pretty soon .
PhD D: Yeah , that 's just one more .
Grad C: Is this their , um , SVM recognizer ?
PhD D: No , it 's just a straightforward HMM .
Professor B: You know , their {disfmarker} their {disfmarker} They have a lot of options {pause} in their recognizer and {disfmarker} and the SVM is one of the things they 've done with it , but it 's not their more standard thing .
Grad C: Oh , OK . Uh - huh .
Professor B: For the most part it 's {disfmarker} it 's Gaussian mixtures .
Grad C: Oh , OK . Oh , OK .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: It 's just a HMM , Gaussian mixture model .
Grad C: Gaussian mixture HMM .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad C: OK .
Professor B: Yeah , the SVM thing was an HMM also . It was just a {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it was like a hybrid , like {disfmarker}
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Yeah , this is a g yeah , this i
Professor B: what ?
PhD D: yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD E: So , just so that I understand , they 're providing scripts and everything so that basically , uh , you {disfmarker} you push a button and it does training , and then it does test , and everything ? Is that {pause} the idea ?
PhD D: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} yeah , I {disfmarker} I guess something like that . It 's like {vocalsound} {disfmarker} as painless as possible ,
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: is what {disfmarker} Do they provide all the scripts , everything , and then {disfmarker} Just ,
PhD E: I see . Hmm . Somehow yo there 's hooks to put your features in and {disfmarker}
PhD D: ju Yeah , I th I think .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: Hmm . Yeah , um . In fact , I mean , if you look into it a little bit , it might be reasonable {disfmarker} You know Joe , right ? Yeah .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Just to sort of ask him about the issue of , um , different features having different kinds of , uh , scaling characteristics and so on . So that , you know , w w possibly having entirely different optimal values for {disfmarker} for the usual twiddle factors and what 's {disfmarker} what 's the plan about that ?
PhD E: OK .
PhD D: So sh shall we , like , add Chuck also to the mailing lists ? It may be better , I mean , in that case if he 's going to {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: Because there 's a mailing list for this .
Professor B: Is that OK ?
PhD E: Yeah , that 'd be great .
PhD D: Yeah , I guess maybe Hari or Hynek , one of them , has to {pause} send a mail to Joe . Or maybe if you {disfmarker}
PhD E: I {disfmarker} I could send him an email .
PhD D: Well , yeah , to add or maybe wh
PhD E: I {disfmarker} I know him really well .
PhD D: Yeah , so that 's just fine .
PhD E: I {disfmarker} I was just talking with him on email the other day actually .
PhD D: So {disfmarker}
Professor B: Uh , yeah , and just , um , se maybe see .
PhD D: So {disfmarker}
PhD E: About other things , but .
Professor B: Do you have Hari 's , uh {disfmarker} ?
PhD E: I have Hari 's {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah , so maybe just CC Hari and say that you 've just been asked to handle the large vocabulary part here , and , uh , you know ,
PhD E: OK . Would it be better if I asked Hari to ask Joe ?
Professor B: Uh . Why don't you just ask Joe but CC Hari , and then in the note say , " Hari , hopefully this is OK with you " .
PhD E: OK .
Professor B: And then if Joe feels like he needs a confirmation , Hari can answer it .
PhD E: OK .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: That way you can get started asking {comment} Joe quickly while he 's {disfmarker} while he 's maybe still , you know , putting in nails and screws and Yeah .
PhD D: And there is an , uh , archive of all the mails that has been {vocalsound} gon that has gone , uh , between these people {disfmarker} among these people . So just you can see all this {pause} mails in the ISIP web site {disfmarker}
PhD E: OK .
PhD D: Mississippi web site .
PhD E: OK . Is that a password controlled {disfmarker} ?
PhD D: Yeah , it 's password protected .
PhD E: OK .
PhD D: So , like {disfmarker} like , it 's , like {disfmarker}
Professor B: Have you thought about {pause} how long {pause} would be uh , most useful for you to go up to OGI ?
PhD A: I don't know , uh . We can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} For September , we can set up a work schedule and we can maybe work independently . And then at some point it maybe be better to work together again .
Professor B: Oh , so you 're {disfmarker} you 're imagining more that you would come back here first for a while and then {disfmarker} and then go up there ?
PhD A: I {disfmarker}
Professor B: I mean , it 's to you .
PhD A: Maybe , yeah .
Professor B: I ju you guys are Well , y anyway , you don't have to decide this second but thi think about it {disfmarker} about what {disfmarker} what you would think would be the {disfmarker} the best way to work it . I 'll
PhD A: But , uh {pause} Huh . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: support it either way , so .
PhD A: Mm - hmm Right .
Professor B: OK . Uh . Got anything to tell us ?
Grad C: Um . Well , I 've been reading some literature about clustering of data . Just , um , I guess , let me put it in context . OK , so we 're talking about discovering intermediate categories to , um {disfmarker} to classify . And , uh , I was looking at some of the work that , uh , Sangita was doing on these TRAPS things . So she has , um {disfmarker} she has temporal patterns for , um , a certain set of phonemes , from {disfmarker} from TIMIT , right ? the most common phonemes . And each one of them has {disfmarker} has a {disfmarker} a nice pattern over time , a one {disfmarker} one second window . And it has {disfmarker} has these patterns . Um , so she has , um a TRAP for each one of the phonemes , um , times fifteen , for each of the fifteen critical bands . And , um , {vocalsound} she does this agglomerative hierarchical clustering which {disfmarker} which basically , um , is a clustering algorithm that , uh , starts with many , many , many different points {disfmarker} many different clusters {disfmarker} uh , corresponding to the number of data , uh , patterns that you have in the data . And then you have this distance mej metric which , uh , measures how {disfmarker} how closely related they are . And you start , um {vocalsound} by merging the patterns that are most closely related .
PhD E: And you create a tree .
Grad C: And y yeah , yeah , a dendrogram tree .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Um .
PhD E: And then you can pick , uh , values anywhere along that tree to fix your set of clusters .
Grad C: Right , usually it 's when , um {disfmarker} when the sol similarity measures , um , don't go down as much .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: And so , uh {disfmarker} so you stop at that point . And what she found was , sh um , was there were five broad , um {disfmarker} broad categories , uh , corresponding to , uh , things like , uh , fricatives and , uh , vocalic , um , and , uh , stops .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: And , uh , one for silence and {disfmarker} and another one for schwa {disfmarker} schwa sounds . Um , and , um , I was thinking about ways to {disfmarker} to generalize this because w you 're {disfmarker} it 's sort of like a {disfmarker} it 's not a completely automatic way of clustering , because yo beforehand you have these {disfmarker} these TRAPS and you 're saying that {disfmarker} that these frames correspond to this particular phoneme . Um , and that 's {disfmarker} that 's constraining your {disfmarker} your clustering to {disfmarker} to the set of phonemes that you already have . Um , whereas maybe we want to just take {disfmarker} take a look at , um , arbitrary windows in time , um , of varying length , um , and cluster those .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: And I 'm thinking if we {disfmarker} if we do that , then we would probably , um , at some point in the clustering algorithm find that we 've clustered things like , OK , thi this is a transition , um , this is a relatively stable {disfmarker} stable point .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Um , and I 'm hoping to find other things of {disfmarker} of similarity and maybe use these things as the intermediate , um {disfmarker} intermediate categories that , uh , um , I 'll later classify .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Are you looking at these in narrow bands ?
Grad C: Um , right . F um , I 'm {disfmarker}
Professor B: Cuz that 's what you 're gonna be using , right ?
Grad C: Yeah , yeah . I {disfmarker} I haven't exactly figured out , um , the exact details for that but , uh , the {disfmarker} the representation of the data that I was thinking of , was using , um , critical band , um , energies , {vocalsound} um , over different lengths of time . So {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah , I mean , it seems somehow that needs th uh , there 's a couple things that I wonder about with this . I mean , so one is {disfmarker} is , {pause} again , looking at the same representation ,
Grad C: OK .
Professor B: I mean , if you 're going for this sort of thing where you have {pause} uh , little detectors that are looking at narrow bands , then what you 're going to be looking for should be some category that you can find with the narrow bands .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: That {disfmarker} that seems to be kind of fundamental to it . Um , and then the other thing , uh , is {disfmarker} that I wonder about with it , and {disfmarker} and don't take this in the wrong way , like I {disfmarker} I know what I 'm doing or anything ,
Grad C: Right .
Professor B: but , I mean . {vocalsound} Um , just wondering really .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Um , the sort of standard answer about this sort of thing is that if you 're trying to find {pause} the right system in some sense , whether you 're trying by categories or {disfmarker} or parameters {pause} um , and your goal is discrimination , then having choices based on discrimination as opposed to , um , unsupervised nearness of things , um , is actually better .
Grad C: Hmm .
Professor B: Um , and I don't know if that {disfmarker} I mean , since you 're dealing with issues of robustness , you know , maybe {disfmarker} maybe this isn't right , but it 'd be something I 'd be concerned about . Because , for instance , you can imagine , uh , uh , i i if you remember from {disfmarker} from , uh {disfmarker} from your {disfmarker} your quals , John Ohala saying that , uh , " buh " {comment} and " puh " {comment} differed , uh , not really cuz of voicing but because of aspiration . I mean , in as far as wha what 's really there in the acoustics .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So , um , if you looked {disfmarker} if you were doing some coarse clustering , you probably would put those two sounds together . And yet , I would gue I would guess that many of your recognition errors were coming from , uh , um , pfft , {comment} screwing up on this distinction .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So , in fact , it 's a little hard because recognizers , to first order , sort of work . And the reasons we 're doing the things we 're doing is because they don't work as well as we 'd like . And since they sort of work , uh , it means that they are already doing {disfmarker} if you go and take any recognizer that 's already out there and you say , " how well is it distinguishing between {pause} schwas and stops ? "
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Boy , I bet they 're all doing nearly perfectly on this , right ?
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So these {disfmarker} these big categories that differ in huge obvious ways , we already know how to do . So , what are we bringing to the party ? I mean , in fact what we wanna do is have something that , particularly in the presence of noise , uh , is better at distinguishing between , uh , categories that are actually close to one another , and hence , would probably be clustered together .
Grad C: Mmm .
Professor B: So that 's th that 's the hard thing . I mean , I understand that there 's this other constraint that you 're considering , is that you wanna have categories that , uh {disfmarker} that would be straightforward for , say , a human being to mark if you had manual annotation . And it 's something that you really think you can pick up . But I think it 's also essential that you wanna look at what are the {vocalsound} confusions that you 're making and how can you come up with , uh , categories that , uh , can clarify these confusions .
Grad C: Mm - hmm . Hmm .
Professor B: So , I mean , the standard sort of way of doing that is take a look at the algorithms you 're looking at , but then throw in some discriminative aspect to it . Y y this is more like , you know , how does LDA differ from PCA ? I mean , they 're the same sort of thing . They 're both orthogonalizing .
Grad C: Right .
Professor B: But , you know {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and , um , this is a little harder because you 're not just trying to find parameters . You 're actually trying to find the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the categories themselves . Uh , so a little more like brain surgery , I think on yourself . Uh . So , uh
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor B: Um , anyway . That 's my {pause} thought .
Grad C: OK .
Professor B: You 've been thinking about this problem for a long time actually . I mean , well {disfmarker} W actually , you stopped thinking about it for a long time , but you used to think about it {vocalsound} a lot .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: And you 've been thinking about it more now ,
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: these categories .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: I guess {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} um , it 's not clear to me how to reconcile , you know , what you 're saying , which I think is right , with {pause} the way I 've been looking at it . That it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's all not very clear to me . But it seems to me that the desire {disfmarker} the desirable feature to have is something that , um , is bottom - up . You know , however we do that .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: And and so I guess what I don't understand is how to do that and still be discriminative , because to be discriminative you have to have categories and the only categories that we know of to use are sort of these human {disfmarker} human sig significant {disfmarker} categories that are significant to humans , like phonemes , things like that .
Professor B: Right .
PhD E: But that 's sort of what you want to avoid . And so that feels {disfmarker} I don't know how to get out of this .
Professor B: Well , here 's a {disfmarker} here 's a , uh , uh Here 's a generic and possibly useless thought , which is , {vocalsound} um , what do you really {disfmarker} I mean , in a sense the only s s systems that make sense , uh , are ones that {disfmarker} that have something from top - down in th in them . Right ? Because if e even the smallest organism that 's trying to learn to do anything , if it doesn't have any kind of reward for doing {disfmarker} or penal penalty for doing anything , then it 's just going to behave randomly .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So whether you 're talking about something being learned through evolution or being learned through experience , it 's gotta have something come down to it that gives its reward or , you know , at least some reinforcement learning ,
PhD E: Right .
Professor B: right ?
PhD E: So the question is , how far down ?
Professor B: And
PhD E: We could stop at words , but we don't , right ? We go all the way down to phonemes .
Professor B: Right , but I me I {disfmarker} I think that maybe in some ways part of the difficulty is {disfmarker} is trying to deal with the {disfmarker} with these phonemes . You know , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and i it 's almost like you want categories if {disfmarker} if our {disfmarker} if our , uh , um , {vocalsound} metric of {disfmarker} of goodness , uh , i if our {disfmarker}
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: correction {disfmarker} if our metric of badness {vocalsound} is word error rate then , um , maybe we should be looking at words .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I mean , for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for very nice , uh , reasons we 've looked for a while at syllables , and they have a lot of good properties , but i i i if you go all the way to words , I mean , that 's really {disfmarker} I mean , d w In many applications you wanna go further . You wanna go to concepts or something , or have {disfmarker} have {disfmarker} have concepts , actions , this sort of thing .
PhD E: Yeah . But words would be a nice {disfmarker}
Professor B: But , words aren't bad , yeah . And {disfmarker} and
PhD E: Yeah , so the common {disfmarker} right , the common wisdom is you can't do words because there 's too many of them , right ? So you have to have some smaller set that you can use , uh , and {disfmarker} and so everybody goes to phonemes . But the problem is that we {disfmarker} we build models of words in terms of phonemes and these models are {disfmarker} are really cartoon - ish , right ? So when you look at conversational speech , for example , you don't see the phonemes that you {disfmarker} that you have in your word models .
Professor B: Yeah . But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but we 're not trying for models of words here . See , so her here 's maybe where {disfmarker} If the issue is that we 're trying to come up with , um , some sort of intermediate categories which will then be useful for later stuff , uh , then {pause} maybe it doesn't matter that we can't have enough {disfmarker}
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I mean , what you wanna do is {disfmarker} is build up these categories that are {disfmarker} that are best for word recognition .
PhD E: Right . Right .
Professor B: And {disfmarker} and somehow if that 's built into the loop of what the categories {disfmarker} I mean , we do this every day in this very gross way of {disfmarker} of running o a thousand experiments
PhD E: Right .
Professor B: because we have fast computers and picking the thing that has the best word error rate .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: In some way {disfmarker} I mean , we derive that all the time . In some ways it 's really not {comment} a bad {disfmarker} bad thing to do because it tells you in fact how your adjustments at the very low level affect the {disfmarker} the final goal .
PhD E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Um , so maybe there 's a way to even put that in in a much more automatic way ,
PhD E: Right .
Professor B: where you take , you know , something about the error at the level of the word or some other {disfmarker} it could be syllable {disfmarker} but in some large unit ,
PhD E: Uh - huh .
Professor B: uh , and uh {disfmarker} yeah , you may not have word models , you have phone models , whatever , but you sort of {pause} don't worry about that , and just somehow feed it back through .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: You know , so that 's , uh , wh what I called a useless comments because I 'm not really telling you how to do it . But I mean , it 's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} it 's , you know {disfmarker} it
PhD E: No , but I think the important part in there is that , you know , if you want to be discriminative , you have to have uh , you know , categories .
Professor B: Right .
PhD E: And I think this {disfmarker} the important categories are the words , and {pause} not the phones .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD E: Maybe . And so {disfmarker} Right . If you can put the words in to the loop somehow for determining goodness of your sets of clusters {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: Now , that being said , I think that {disfmarker} that if you have something that is , um {disfmarker} i Once you start dealing with spontaneous speech , all the things you 're saying are {disfmarker} are really true .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: If you {pause} have read speech that 's been manually annotated , like TIMIT , then , you know , i i you the phones are gonna be right , actually , {vocalsound} for the most part .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah ,
Professor B: So {disfmarker} so , uh , it doesn't really hurt them to {disfmarker} to do that , to put in discrimination at that level .
PhD E: yeah .
Professor B: Um , if you go to spontaneous speech then it 's {disfmarker} it 's trickier and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and , uh , the phones are {disfmarker} uh , you know , it 's gonna be based on bad pronunciation models that you have of {disfmarker}
PhD E:
Professor B: and , um {disfmarker} And it won't allow for the overlapping phenomenon
PhD E: Mmm . So it 's almost like there 's this mechanism that we have that , you know , when {disfmarker} when we 're hearing read speech and all the phonemes are there you know , we {disfmarker} we deal with that , but {disfmarker} but when we go to conversational , and then all of a sudden not all the phonemes are there , it doesn't really matter that much to us as humans because we have some kind of mechanism that allows for these word models , whatever those models are , to be {pause} munged , you know , and {disfmarker} and it doesn't really hurt , and I 'm not sure how {disfmarker} {vocalsound} how to build that in . Uh .
Professor B: Yeah , I mean , I guess the other thing i is {disfmarker} is to think of a little bit {disfmarker} I mean , we when y when you start looking at these kind of results I think it usually is {disfmarker} is pretty intuitive , but start looking at um , what are the kinds of confusions that you do make , uh , you know , between words if you want or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or , uh , even phones in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in read speech , say , uh , when there is noise . You know , so is it more across place or more across manner ? Or is it cor you know , is it {disfmarker} ?
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I mean , I know one thing that happens is that you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you , uh , you lose the , um , uh , low energy phones . I mean , if there 's added noise then low energy phones {vocalsound} sometimes don't get heard . And if that {disfmarker} if that is {disfmarker} if it {disfmarker} uh , if that turns it into another word or {disfmarker} or different {disfmarker} you know , or another pair of words or something , then it 's more likely to happen . But , um , I don't know , I w I would {disfmarker} I would guess that you 'd {disfmarker}
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: W I don't know . Anyway , that 's {disfmarker}
PhD E: I think part of the difficulty is that a l a lot of the robustness that we have is probably coming from a much higher level .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: You know , we understand the context of the situation when we 're having a conversation . And so if there 's noise in there , you know , our brain fills in and imagines what {disfmarker} what should be there .
Professor B: Well that {disfmarker}
Grad C: Yeah . We 're {disfmarker} we 're doing some sort of prediction of what {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah , exactly .
Professor B: Oh , sure , that 's really big .
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor B: Uh , but I mean , even if you do um , uh , diagnostic rhyme test kind of things , you know , where there really isn't an any information like that , uh , people are still better in noise than they {disfmarker} than they are in {disfmarker} in , uh {disfmarker} uh , than the machines are .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor B: So , I mean , that 's {disfmarker} i Right . We can't {disfmarker} we can't get it at all without any language models . Language models are there and important but {disfmarker} but , uh {disfmarker} Uh . If we 're not working on that then {vocalsound} we should work on something else and improve it , but {disfmarker} especially if it looks like the potential is there . So {disfmarker} Should we do some digits ?
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor B: Since we 're here ?
PhD E: Go ahead , Morgan .
Professor B: OK .
PhD E: OK .
Professor B: That 's all folks . | |
doc_146 | PhD B: We 're , I mean {pause} we {disfmarker} We didn't have a house before .
Professor D: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD E: OK .
Professor D: We 're on again ? OK .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . That is really great .
Grad H: Yeah , so if {pause} uh {disfmarker} {pause} So if anyone hasn't signed the consent form , please do so .
PhD A: That 's terrific .
PhD B: Oh , yeah !
Professor D: OK
Grad H: The new consent form . The new and improved consent form .
PhD A: Now you won't be able to walk or ride your bike , huh ?
Professor D: OK .
Postdoc F: Uh .
PhD B: Right .
Professor D: OK .
Grad H: And uh , shall I go ahead and do some digits ?
Professor D: Uh , we were gonna do that at the end , remember ?
Grad H: OK , whatever you want .
Professor D: Yeah . Just {disfmarker} just to be consistent , from here on in at least , that {disfmarker} {pause} that we 'll do it at the end .
PhD B: The new consent form .
Grad H: It 's uh {disfmarker} {pause} Yeah , it doesn't matter . OK .
Professor D: OK Um Well , it ju I mean it might be that someone here has to go ,
Postdoc F: Testing , one , two , three .
Professor D: and {disfmarker} Right ? That was {disfmarker} that was sort of the point . So , uh {pause} I had asked actually anybody who had any ideas for an agenda {pause} to send it to me and no one did . So ,
Grad H: So we all forgot .
Professor D: Uh ,
Postdoc F: From last time I wanted to {disfmarker} Uh {pause} {pause} The {disfmarker} An iss uh {pause} one topic from last time .
Professor D: Right , s OK , so one item for an agenda is uh {pause} Jane has some uh {vocalsound} uh some research to talk about , research issues . Um {pause} and {pause} Uh , Adam has some short research issues .
Grad H: And I have some {pause} short research issues .
Professor D: Um , I have a {pause} list of things that I think were done over the last three months I was supposed to {vocalsound} {vocalsound} send off , uh {pause} and , um {pause} I {disfmarker} I sent a note about it to uh {disfmarker} to Adam and Jane but I think I 'll just run through it {pause} also and see if someone thinks it 's inaccurate or {pause} uh insufficient .
PhD A: A list that you have to send off to who ?
Professor D: Uh , to uh uh , IBM .
PhD A: Oh .
Professor D: OK . They 're , you know {disfmarker}
PhD E:
Professor D: So . Um , So , uh {pause} so , I 'll go through that . Um , {pause} And , Anything else ? {pause} anyone wants to talk about ?
PhD A: What about the , um {disfmarker} your trip , yesterday ?
Professor D: No . OK . Um . Sort of off - topic I guess .
PhD A: Oh , OK .
Professor D: Cuz that 's {pause} Cuz that was all {disfmarker} all about the , uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I can chat with you about that {pause} off - line . That 's another thing . Um , And , Anything else ? Nothing else ? Uh , there 's a {disfmarker} I mean , there is a {disfmarker} {pause} a , um {pause} uh {pause} telephone call tomorrow , {pause} which will be a conference call {pause} that some of us are involved in {pause} for uh a possible proposal . Um , we 'll talk {disfmarker} we 'll talk about it next week if {disfmarker} if something {disfmarker}
Grad H: Do you want me to {pause} be there for that ? I noticed you C C ' ed me , but I wasn't actually a recipient . I didn't quite know what to make of that .
Professor D: Uh Well , we 'll talk {disfmarker} talk about that after our meeting . OK .
Grad H: OK .
Professor D: Uh , OK . So it sounds like the {disfmarker} the three main things that we have to talk about are , uh this list , uh Jane and {disfmarker} Jane and Adam have some research items , and , other than that , anything , {pause} as usual , {pause} anything goes beyond that . OK , uh , Jane , since {disfmarker} since you were sort of cut off last time why don't we start with yours , make sure we get to it .
Postdoc F: OK , it 's {disfmarker} it 's very {pause} eh {disfmarker} it 's {pause} very brief , I mean {disfmarker} just let me {disfmarker} just hand these out . Oops .
Grad H: Is this the same as the email or different ?
PhD C: Thanks .
Postdoc F: It 's slightly different . I {disfmarker} {pause} basically the same .
Grad H: OK .
PhD A: Same idea ?
Postdoc F: But , same idea . So , if you 've looked at this you 've seen it before , so {pause} Basically , {vocalsound} um {pause} as you know , uh {pause} part of the encoding {pause} includes a mark that indicates {pause} an overlap . It 's not indicated {pause} with , um {pause} uh , tight precision , it 's just indicated that {disfmarker} OK , so , It 's indicated to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} so the people know {pause} what parts of sp which {disfmarker} which stretches of speech were in the clear , versus being overlapped by others . So , I {pause} used this mark and , um {pause} and , uh {pause} uh , {pause} divided the {disfmarker} I wrote a script {pause} which divides things into individual minutes , {pause} of which we ended up with forty {pause} five , and a little bit . And , uh {pause} you know , minute zero , of course , is the first minute up to {pause} sixty seconds .
PhD C: OK .
Postdoc F: And , um {pause} What you can see is the number of overlaps {pause} and then {pause} to the right , {pause} whether they involve two speakers , three speakers , or more than three speakers . And , {pause} um {pause} and , what I was looking for sp sp specifically was the question of {pause} whether they 're distributed evenly throughout or whether they 're {pause} bursts of them . Um . And {pause} it looked to me as though {disfmarker} uh , you know {disfmarker} y this is just {disfmarker} {pause} eh {disfmarker} eh , this would {disfmarker} this is not statistically {pause} verified , {pause} but it {pause} did look to me as though there are bursts throughout , rather than being {pause} localized to a particular region . The part down there , where there 's the maximum number of {disfmarker} {pause} of , um {pause} overlaps is an area where we were discussing {pause} {vocalsound} whether or not it would be useful to indi to s to {pause} code {pause} stress , {pause} uh , sentence stress {pause} as possible indication of , uh {pause} information retrieval . So it 's like , {pause} you know , rather , {pause} lively discussion there .
Professor D: What was {disfmarker} what 's the {disfmarker} the parenthesized stuff {pause} that says , like {disfmarker} e the first one that says six overlaps and then two point eight ?
Postdoc F: Oh , th {vocalsound} {pause} That 's the per cent .
Professor D: Mmm .
Postdoc F: So , six is , uh {pause} two point eight percent {pause} of the total number of overlaps in the {pause} session .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Ah .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: At the very end , this is when people were , {pause} you know , packing up to go basically , there 's {pause} this final stuff , I think we {disfmarker} {pause} I don't remember where the digits {pause} fell . I 'd have to look at that . But {pause} the final three there are no overlaps at all . And {pause} couple times there {pause} are not .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: So , i it seems like it goes through bursts {pause} but , um {pause} that 's kind of it .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: Now , {pause} Another question is {pause} is there {disfmarker} are there {pause} individual differences in whether you 're likely to be overlapped with or to overlap with others . And , again {pause} I want to emphasize this is just one {pause} particular {pause} um {disfmarker} {pause} one particular meeting , and also there 's been no statistical testing of it all , but {pause} I , um {pause} I took the coding of {pause} the {disfmarker} I , you know , my {disfmarker} I had this script {pause} figure out , um {pause} who {pause} was the first speaker , who was the second speaker involved in a two - person overlap , I didn't look at the ones involving three or more . And , um {pause} {pause} this is how it breaks down in the individual cells of {pause} who tended to be overlapping most often with who {disfmarker} who else , and {pause} if you look at the marginal totals , which is the ones on the right side and across the bottom , you get {pause} the totals for an individual . So , {vocalsound} um {pause} If you {pause} look at the bottom , those are the , um {pause} numbers of overlaps in which {pause} um {pause} Adam was involved as the person doing the overlapping and if you look {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , but you 're o alphabetical , that 's why I 'm choosing you And then if you look across the right , {pause} then {pause} that 's where he was the {pause} person who was the sp first speaker in the pair {pause} and got overlap overlapped with by somebody .
PhD A: Hmm !
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: And , {pause} then if you look down in the summary table , {pause} then you see that , um {pause} th they 're differences in {pause} whether a person got overlapped with or {pause} overlapped by .
Grad H: Is this uh {pause} just raw counts or is it {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: Raw counts .
Grad H: So it would be interesting to see how much each person spoke .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah {vocalsound} Yeah
Postdoc F: Yes , very true {disfmarker} very true
Grad H: Normalized to how much {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: it would be good to normalize with respect to that . Now on the table I did {pause} take one step toward , uh {pause} away from the raw frequencies by putting , {pause} uh {pause} percentages . So that the percentage of time {pause} of the {disfmarker} of the times that a person spoke , {pause} what percentage {pause} eh , w so . Of the times a person spoke and furthermore was involved in a two two - person overlap , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} what percentage of the time were they the overlapper and what percent of the time were they th the overlappee ? And there , it looks like you see some differences , um , {pause} that some people tend to be overlapped {pause} with more often than they 're overlapped , but , of course , uh i e {vocalsound} this is just one meeting , {pause} uh {pause} there 's no statistical testing involved , and that would be {pause} required for a {disfmarker} for a finding {pause} of {pause} any {pause} kind of {pause} scientific {pause} reliability .
Professor D: S so , i it would be statistically incorrect to conclude from this that Adam talked too much or something .
Grad H: No {disfmarker} no actually , that would be actually statistically correct ,
Professor D: Yeah , yeah .
Postdoc F: No , no , no .
PhD E: Yeah , yeah . Yeah , yeah .
Grad H: but
Postdoc F: Yeah , that 's right .
Professor D: Yeah . Excuse me .
Postdoc F: That 's right . And I 'm {pause} you know , I 'm {disfmarker} I don't see a point of singling people out ,
Professor D: B I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I rather enjoyed it , but {disfmarker} but this
Postdoc F: now , this is a case where obviously {disfmarker}
PhD A: But the numbers speak for themselves .
PhD E: He 's {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Postdoc F: Well , {vocalsound} you know , it 's like {disfmarker} I 'm not {disfmarker} I 'm not saying on the tape who did {pause} better or worse
Grad H: Yes , that 's right , so you don't nee OK .
Professor D: Sure .
Postdoc F: because {pause} I don't think that it 's {disfmarker} I {pause} you know , and {disfmarker} and th here 's a case where of course , human subjects people would say be sure that you anonymize the results , {pause} and {disfmarker} and , so , might as well do this .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad H: Yeah , when {disfmarker} this is what {disfmarker} This is actually {disfmarker} when Jane sent this email first , is what caused me to start thinking about anonymizing the data .
Postdoc F: Well , fair enough . Fair enough .
Professor D: Yeah .
Postdoc F: And actually , {pause} you know , the point is not about an individual , it 's the point about {pause} tendencies toward {pause} you know , different styles , different speaker styles .
Professor D: Oh sure .
Postdoc F: And {pause} it would be , you know {pause} of course , {pause} there 's also the question of what type of overlap was this , and w what were they , and i and I {disfmarker} and I know that I can distinguish at least three types and , probably more , I mean , the {vocalsound} general {pause} {vocalsound} cultural idea which w uh , the conversation analysts originally started with in the seventies was that we have this {vocalsound} strict model where politeness involves that you let the person finish th before you start talking , and {pause} and you know , I mean , {pause} w we know that {disfmarker} {pause} an and they 've loosened up on that too s in the intervening time , that {pause} that that 's {disfmarker} that 's viewed as being {pause} a culturally - relative thing , I mean , {pause} that you have the high - involvement style from the East Coast where people {vocalsound} will overlap often as an indication of interest in what the other person is saying . And
Grad H: Uh - huh .
PhD B: Exactly !
Postdoc F: Yeah , exactly !
PhD E: Yeah
Postdoc F: Well , there you go . Fine , that 's alright , that 's OK . And {disfmarker} and , {pause} you know , in contrast , so Deborah {disfmarker} d and also Deborah Tannen 's {pause} thesis she talked about differences of these types , {pause} that they 're just different styles , and it 's um {pause} you {disfmarker} you can't impose a model of {disfmarker} {pause} there {disfmarker} of the ideal being no overlaps , and {pause} you know , conversational analysts also agree with that , so it 's {pause} now , universally {pause} a ag agreed with . And {disfmarker} and , als I mean , I can't say universally , but anyway , the people who used to say it was strict , {pause} um {pause} now , uh {pause} don't . I mean they {disfmarker} they {pause} also {pause} {vocalsound} you know , uh {pause} uh , ack acknowledge the influence of {pause} sub of subcultural norms and {pause} cross - cultural norms and things . So , um Then it beco {pause} though {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} just {disfmarker} just superficially to give {pause} um {pause} a couple ideas of the types of overlaps involved , I have at the bottom several that I noticed . So , {pause} {vocalsound} uh , there are backchannels , like what Adam just did now and , um {pause} {vocalsound} um , anticipating the end of a question and {pause} simply answering it earlier , and there are several of those in this {disfmarker} in these data where {disfmarker}
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: because we 're {pause} people who 've talked to each other , um {pause} we know {pause} basically what the topic is , what the possibilities are and w and we 've spoken with each other so we know basically what the other person 's style is likely to be and so {vocalsound} and t there are a number of places where someone just answered early . No problem . And places {pause} also which I thought were interesting , where two or more people gave exactly th the same answer in unison {disfmarker} different words of course but you know , the {disfmarker} basically , {pause} you know everyone 's saying " yes " or {disfmarker} you know , or ev even more sp specific than that . So , uh , the point is that , um {pause} {vocalsound} overlap 's not necessarily a bad thing and that it would be im {pause} i useful to subdivide these further and see if there are individual differences in styles with respect to the types involved . And that 's all I wanted to say on that , {pause} unless people have questions .
Professor D: Well , of course th the biggest , {pause} um {pause} result here , which is one we 've {disfmarker} {pause} we 've talked about many times and isn't new to us , but which I think would be interesting to show someone who isn't familiar with this {vocalsound} {pause} is just the sheer number of overlaps .
Grad H: Yep .
Professor D: That {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} Right ? {pause} that {disfmarker} that , um
PhD E: Yes , yes !
Postdoc F: Oh , OK {disfmarker} interesting .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: here 's a relatively short meeting , it 's a forty {disfmarker} {pause} forty plus minute {pause} {vocalsound} meeting , and not only were there two hundred and fifteen overlaps {vocalsound} {pause} but , {pause} uh I think there 's one {disfmarker} {pause} one minute there where there {disfmarker} where {disfmarker} where there wasn't any overlap ?
Grad H: Hundred ninety - seven .
Professor D: I mean , it 's {disfmarker} {pause} {vocalsound} uh throughout this thing ?
PhD A: It 'd be interesting {disfmarker}
Professor D: It 's {disfmarker} You have {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: Well , at the bottom , you have the bottom three .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad H: S n are {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: So four {disfmarker} four minutes all together with none {disfmarker} none .
PhD A: But it w
Professor D: Oh , so the bottom three did have s stuff going on ? There was speech ?
Postdoc F: Yes , uh - huh . Yeah . But just no overlaps .
Professor D: OK , so if {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} this {disfmarker}
PhD A: It 'd be interesting to see what the total amount of time is in the overlaps , versus {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: Yes , exactly and that 's {disfmarker} that 's where Jose 's pro project comes in .
PhD E: Yeah , yeah , I h I have this that infor I have th that information now .
PhD G: I was about to ask {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD B: Hmm .
Professor D: Oh , about how much is it ?
PhD E: The {disfmarker} the duration of eh {disfmarker} of each of the overlaps .
Professor D: O oh , what 's {disfmarker} what 's the {disfmarker} what 's the average {pause} length ?
PhD E: M I {disfmarker} I haven't averaged it now but , uh {pause} I {disfmarker} I will , uh I will do the {disfmarker} the study of the {disfmarker} {pause} with the {disfmarker} with the program with the {disfmarker} uh , the different , uh {pause} the , nnn , {pause} distribution of the duration of the overlaps .
Professor D: You don't know ? OK , you {disfmarker} you don you don't have a feeling for roughly how {pause} much it is ? Yeah .
PhD E: mmm , {pause} Because the {disfmarker} the uh , @ @ is @ @ .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD E: The duration is , uh {pause} the variation {disfmarker} the variation of the duration is uh , very big on the dat
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: I suspect that it will also differ , {pause} depending on the type of overlap {pause} involved .
PhD E: but eh {disfmarker}
Professor D: Oh , I 'm sure .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc F: So backchannels will be very brief
PhD E: Because , on your surface eh {pause} a bit of zone of overlapping with the duration eh , overlapped and another very very short .
Postdoc F: and {disfmarker}
Professor D: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD E: Uh , i probably it 's very difficult to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} because the {disfmarker} the overlap is , uh on is only the {disfmarker} in the final " S " of the {disfmarker} of the {disfmarker} the fin the {disfmarker} the end {disfmarker} the end word of the , um {pause} previous speaker {vocalsound} with the {disfmarker} the next word of the {disfmarker} the new speaker .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Um , I considered {pause} that 's an overlap but it 's very short , it 's an " X " with a {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} the idea is probably , eh {pause} when eh {disfmarker} when eh , we studied th th that zone , eh {pause} {pause} eh , we h we have eh eh {pause} confusion with eh eh noise .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: With eh {pause} that fricative sounds , but uh {pause} I have new information but I have to {disfmarker} to study .
Professor D: Yeah . Yeah , but I {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} {vocalsound} u
PhD G: Can I {disfmarker}
Professor D: go ahead .
Postdoc F: Yeah .
PhD G: You split this by minute , um {pause} so if an overlap straddles {pause} the boundary between two minutes , that counts towards both of those minutes .
Postdoc F: Yes . Mm - hmm . Actually , um {vocalsound} um {pause} actually not . Uh , so {pause} le let 's think about the case where {vocalsound} A starts speaking {pause} {vocalsound} and then B overlaps with A , {pause} and then the minute boundary happens . And let 's say that {vocalsound} after that minute boundary , {vocalsound} um {pause} B is still speaking , {pause} and A overlaps {pause} with B , that would be a new overlap . But otherwise {pause} um , let 's say B {pause} comes to the conclusion of {disfmarker} of that turn without {pause} anyone overlapping with him or her , in which case there would be no overlap counted in that second minute .
PhD G: No , but suppose they both talk simultaneously {vocalsound} {pause} both a {disfmarker} a portion of it is in minute one and another portion of minute two .
Postdoc F: OK . In that case , um {pause} my c {pause} the coding that I was using {disfmarker} {vocalsound} since we haven't , {pause} uh {pause} incorporated Adam 's , uh {pause} coding of overlap yets , the coding of Yeah , " yets " is not a word . Uh {vocalsound} since we haven't incorporated Adam 's method of handling overl overlaps yet {vocalsound} um {pause} then {pause} that would have fallen through the cra cracks . It would be an underestimate of the number of overlaps because , um {pause} I wou I wouldn't be able to pick it up from the way it was {pause} encoded so far .
Professor D: I I
Postdoc F: We just haven't done th the precise second to sec you know , {pause} second to second coding of when they occur .
Professor D: I I I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm confused now . So l l let me restate what I thought Andreas was saying and {disfmarker} and see .
Postdoc F: Uh - huh .
Professor D: Let 's say that in {disfmarker} in second fifty - seven {pause} {vocalsound} of one minute , {pause} you start talking and I start talking and {pause} we ignore each other and keep on talking for six seconds .
Postdoc F: Yep . OK . Mm - hmm .
Professor D: So we go over {disfmarker} So we were {disfmarker} we were talking over one another , {pause} and it 's just {disfmarker} in each case , it 's just sort of one {pause} interval . Right ?
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm ?
Professor D: So , um {pause} we talked over the minute boundary . Is this {pause} considered as one overlap in each of the minutes , the way you have done this .
Postdoc F: No , it wouldn't . It would be considered as an overlap in the first one .
Professor D: OK , so that 's {pause} good , i I think , in the sense that I think Andreas meant the question ,
PhD B: That 's {disfmarker} {pause} that 's good , yeah , cuz the overall rate is {disfmarker}
PhD C:
PhD G: Yeah .
Grad H: Statistical .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: right ?
Postdoc F: Yeah . They 're not double counted .
PhD G: Other - otherwise you 'd get double counts , here and there .
Grad H: Yep .
PhD B: Ah but , yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD B:
PhD G: And then it would be harder {disfmarker}
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc F: I should also say I did a simplifying , uh {pause} count in that {vocalsound} if A was speaking {pause} B overlapped with A and then A came back again and overlapped with B again , I {disfmarker} I didn't count that as a three - person overlap , I counted that as a two - person overlap , {pause} and it was A being overlapped with by D .
Grad H: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: Because the idea was the first speaker {pause} had the floor {pause} and the second person {pause} started speaking and then the f the first person reasserted the floor {pause} kind of thing .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc F: These are simplifying assumptions , didn't happen very often , there may be like three overlaps affected that way in the whole thing .
Grad H: I want to go back and listen to minute forty - one .
Postdoc F: Yeah , yeah .
Grad H: Cuz i i I find it interesting that there were a large number of overlaps and they were all two - speaker .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad H: I mean what I thought {disfmarker} what I would have thought in {pause} is that when there were a large number of overlaps , it was because everyone was talking at once , {vocalsound} but uh apparently not .
Postdoc F: That 's interesting . That 's interesting .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah . Mmm .
Grad H: That 's really neat .
Professor D: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Yeah , there 's a lot of backchannel , a lot o a lot of {disfmarker}
Grad H: This is {pause} really interesting data .
Postdoc F: Yeah , it is .
PhD B: I think what 's really interesting though , it is {pause} before d {pause} saying " yes , meetings have a lot of overlaps " is to actually find out how many more {pause} we have than two - party .
Postdoc F: I think so too , I think {disfmarker}
PhD B: Cuz in two - party conversations , like Switchboard , there 's an awful lot too if you just look at backchannels , if you consider those overlaps ? it 's also ver it 's huge . It 's just that people haven't been {pause} looking at that because they 've been doing single - channel processing for {pause} speech recognition .
Grad H: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Mm - hmm ?
PhD B: So , the question is , you know , how many more overlaps {pause} {vocalsound} do you have {pause} of , say the two - person type , by adding more people . to a meeting , and it may be a lot more but i it may {disfmarker} {pause} it may not be .
Professor D: Well , but see , I find it interesting even if it wasn't any more ,
PhD B: So .
Professor D: because {pause} since we were dealing with this full duplex sort of thing in Switchboard where it was just all separated out {vocalsound} we just {disfmarker} everything was just nice ,
PhD B: Mm - hmm ?
Professor D: so that {disfmarker} so the issue is in {disfmarker} in a situation {pause} where th that 's {disfmarker}
PhD B: Well , it 's not really {pause} " nice " . It depends what you 're doing . So if you were actually {pause} {vocalsound} having , uh {disfmarker} depends what you 're doing , if {disfmarker} Right now we 're do we have individual mikes on the people in this meeting . So the question is , you know {disfmarker} " are there really more overlaps happening than there would be in a two - person {pause} party " .
Professor D: Mm - hmm ?
PhD B: And {disfmarker} and there well may be , but {disfmarker}
Professor D: Let {disfmarker} let m let me rephrase what I 'm saying cuz I don't think I 'm getting it across . What {disfmarker} what I {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} I shouldn't use words like " nice " because maybe that 's too {disfmarker} i too imprecise . But what I mean is {vocalsound} that , um in Switchboard , {pause} despite the many {disfmarker} many other problems that we have , one problem that we 're not considering is overlap . And what we 're doing now is , {pause} aside from the many other differences in the task , we are considering overlap and one of the reasons that we 're considering it , {pause} you know , one of them not all of them , one of them is {vocalsound} that w uh at least , {pause} you know I 'm very interested in {vocalsound} the scenario in which , uh {pause} both people talking are pretty much equally {pause} audible , {vocalsound} and from a single microphone . And so , {pause} in that case , it does get mixed in , {vocalsound} and it 's pretty hard to jus {pause} to just ignore it , to just do processing on one and not on the other .
PhD B: I {disfmarker} I agree that it 's an issue here {pause} but it 's also an issue for Switchboard and if you {pause} think of meetings {pause} being recorded over the telephone , which I think , you know , this whole point of studying meetings isn't just to have people in a room but to also have {pause} meetings over different phone lines .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Maybe far field mike people wouldn't be interested in that but all the dialogue issues still apply ,
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: so if each of us was calling and having {pause} {vocalsound} a meeting that way {pause} you kn you know like a conference call . And , just the question is , {pause} y you know , in Switchboard {pause} you would think that 's the simplest case of a meeting of more than one person ,
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: and {pause} {vocalsound} I 'm wondering how much more {pause} overlap {pause} of {pause} the types that {disfmarker} that Jane described happen with more people present . So it may be that having three people {pause} {vocalsound} is very different from having two people or it may not be .
Professor D: That 's an important question to ask .
PhD B: So .
Professor D: I think what I 'm {disfmarker} {pause} All I 'm s really saying is that I don't think we were considering that in Switchboard .
PhD B: Not you , me . But uh {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but
Professor D: Were you ?
Grad H: Though it wasn't {pause} in the design .
Professor D: Were you {disfmarker} were you {disfmarker} were you {disfmarker} were you measuring it ? I mean , w w were {disfmarker}
PhD B: There {disfmarker} there 's actually to tell you the truth , the reason why it 's hard to measure is because of so , from the point of view of studying dialogue , I mean , which {pause} Dan Jurafsky and Andreas and I had some projects on , you want to know the sequence of turns .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD B: So what happens is if you 're talking and I have a backchannel in the middle of your turn , and then you keep going what it looks like in a dialogue model is your turn and then my backchannel ,
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD B: even though my backchannel occurred completely inside your turn .
Professor D: Yeah ?
PhD B: So , for things like language modeling or dialogue modeling {pause} {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} We know that that 's wrong in real time .
Professor D: Yeah ?
PhD B: But , because of the acoustic segmentations that were done and the fact that some of the acoustic data in Switchboard were missing , people couldn't study it , but that doesn't mean in the real world that people don't talk that way . So , it 's {disfmarker} um
Professor D: Yeah , I wasn't saying that . Right ? I was just saying that w now we 're looking at it .
PhD B: Well , we 've als
Professor D: And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and , you {disfmarker} you maybe wanted to look at it before but , for these various technical reasons in terms of how the data was you weren't .
PhD B: Right . We 're looking at it here .
Professor D: So that 's why it 's coming to us as new even though it may well be {pause} you know , if your {disfmarker} if your hypothes The hypothesis you were offering {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker}
PhD B: Um .
Professor D: Right ? {disfmarker} if it 's the null poth {comment} hypothesis , and if actually you have as much overlap in a two - person , {vocalsound} we don't know the answer to that . The reason we don't know the answer to is cuz it wasn't studied and it wasn't studied because it wasn't set up . Right ?
PhD B: Yeah , all I meant is that if you 're asking the question from the point of view of {pause} what 's different about a meeting , studying meetings of , say , more than two people versus {pause} what kinds of questions you could ask with a two - person {pause} meeting .
Professor D: Mm - hmm ?
PhD B: It 's important to distinguish {pause} that , you know , this project {pause} is getting a lot of overlap {pause} but other projects were too , but we just couldn't study them . And and so uh
Professor D: May have been . May have been . Right ?
PhD B: Well , there is a high rate ,
Professor D: We do kn we don't know the numbers .
PhD B: So . It 's {disfmarker} but I don't know how high , in fact
PhD A: Well , here I have a question .
PhD B: that would be interesting to know .
Professor D: See , I mean , i i le let me t I mean , my point was just if you wanted to say to somebody , " what have we learned about overlaps here ? " just never mind comparison with something else ,
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: what we 've learned about is overlaps in this situation , is that {disfmarker} the first {disfmarker} {pause} the first - order thing I would say is that there 's a lot of them . Right ?
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: In {disfmarker} in the sense that i if you said if {disfmarker} i i i
PhD B: Yeah , I {disfmarker} I don't di I agree with that .
Professor D: In a way , I guess what I 'm comparing to is more the common sense notion of {vocalsound} how {disfmarker} how much people overlap . Uh {pause} you know the fact that when {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when , uh , Adam was looking for a stretch of {disfmarker} of speech before , that didn't have any overlaps , and he w he was having such a hard time and now I look at this and I go , " well , I can see why he was having such a hard time " .
PhD B: Right . That 's also true of Switchboard .
Professor D: It 's happening a lot .
PhD B: It may not be {disfmarker}
Professor D: I wasn't saying it wasn't .
PhD B: Right . So it 's just , um
Professor D: Right ? I was commenting about this .
PhD B: OK . All I 'm saying is that from the
Professor D: I 'm saying if I {disfmarker} {pause} I 'm saying if I have this complicated thing in front of me , {vocalsound} and we sh which , {pause} you know we 're gonna get much more sophisticated about when we get lots more data , But {disfmarker} Then , if I was gonna describe to somebody what did you learn {pause} right here , about , you know , the {disfmarker} the modest amount of data that was analyzed I 'd say , " Well , the first - order thing was there was a lot of overlaps " . In fact {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and it 's not just an overlap {disfmarker} bunch of overlaps {disfmarker} second - order thing is {vocalsound} it 's not just a bunch of overlaps in one particular point , {vocalsound} but that there 's overlaps , uh throughout the thing .
Grad H: Right .
PhD B: Right . No , I {disfmarker} I agree with that .
Professor D: And that 's interesting . That 's all .
PhD B: I 'm just {pause} {vocalsound} saying that it may {disfmarker} {pause} the reason you get overlaps may or may not be due to sort of the number of people in the meeting .
Professor D: Oh yeah .
PhD B: And that 's all .
Professor D: Yeah . Yeah , I wasn't making any statement about that .
PhD B: And {disfmarker} and it would actually be interesting to find out
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD B: because some of the data say Switchboard , which isn't exactly the same kind of context , I mean these are two people who don't know each other and so forth , But we should still be able to somehow say what {disfmarker} what is the added contra contribution to sort of overlap time of each additional person , or something like that .
Grad H: Yep .
Professor D: Yeah , that would be good to know ,
PhD A: What {disfmarker}
Professor D: but w we {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: OK , now .
Grad H: I could certainly see it going either way .
Postdoc F: Wh - yeah , I {disfmarker} I agree {disfmarker} I agree with Adam .
PhD B: But yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc F: And the reason is because I think there 's a limit {disfmarker} {pause} there 's an upper bound {pause} on how many you can have , simply {pause} from the standpoint of audibility . When we speak we {disfmarker} we do make a judgment of {pause} " can {disfmarker} " you know , as adults .
PhD B: Right .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: I mean , children don't adjust so well , I mean , if a truck goes rolling past , {vocalsound} adults will well , depending , but mostly , adults will {disfmarker} will {disfmarker} {pause} will hold off to what {disfmarker} {pause} to finish the end of the sentence till the {disfmarker} till the noise is past .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc F: And I think we generally do {vocalsound} monitor things like that , {pause} about {disfmarker} whether we {disfmarker} whether our utterance will be in the clear or not .
PhD B: Right .
Postdoc F: And partly it 's related to rhythmic structure in conversation , so , {vocalsound} you know , you {disfmarker} you t Yeah , this is d also um , people tend to time their {disfmarker} their {disfmarker} {vocalsound} their , um {pause} when they {pause} come into the conversation based on the overall rhythmic , {pause} uh uh , ambient thing .
PhD A: Well {disfmarker}
PhD B: Right .
Postdoc F: So you don't want to be c cross - cutting . And {disfmarker} and , just to finish this , that um That I think that {vocalsound} there may be an upper bound on how many overlaps you can have , simply from the standpoint of audibility and how loud the other people are who are already {pause} in the fray . But I {disfmarker} you know , of certain types . Now if it 's just backchannels , {vocalsound} people {pause} may be doing that {pause} with less {pause} intention of being heard , {pause} just sort of spontaneously doing backchannels , in which case {pause} that {disfmarker} those might {disfmarker} there may be no upper bound on those .
PhD G: I {disfmarker} I have a feeling that backchannels , which are the vast majority of overlaps in Switchboard , {pause} uh , don't play as big a role here , because it 's very unnatural I think , to backchannel if {disfmarker} in a multi - audience {disfmarker} you know , in a multi - person {vocalsound} {pause} audience .
PhD B: If you can see them , actually . It 's interesting , so if you watch people are going like {disfmarker} {comment} {comment} Right {disfmarker} right , like this here ,
PhD G: Right .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD B: but That may not be the case if you couldn't see them .
Professor D: u
PhD G: But {disfmarker} {pause} but , it 's sort of odd if one person 's speaking and everybody 's listening , and it 's unusual to have everybody going " uh - huh , uh - huh "
Professor D: Actually , I think I 've done it {pause} a fair number of times today .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: But .
PhD B: There 's a lot of head - nodding , in this
Grad H: Um .
PhD G: Yeah .
Grad H: Yep , we need to put trackers on it .
PhD A: In {disfmarker} in the two - person {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Postdoc F: He could , he could .
PhD G: Plus {disfmarker} plus {disfmarker} plus the {disfmarker} Yeah . So {disfmarker} so actually , um That 's in part because the nodding , if you have visual contact , {pause} the nodding has the same function , but on the phone , in Switchboard {vocalsound} you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} that wouldn't work . So {vocalsound} so you need to use the backchannel .
Grad H: Yeah , you don't have it . Your mike is {disfmarker}
PhD A: So , in the two - person conversations , {pause} when there 's backchannel , is there a great deal of {pause} overlap {pause} in the speech ?
Grad H: That is an earphone , so if you just put it {pause} so it 's on your ear .
PhD A: or {disfmarker} Cuz my impression is sometimes it happens when there 's a pause ,
PhD B: Yes .
Grad H: There you go .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc F: E for example .
Grad H: Thank you .
PhD A: you know , like you {disfmarker} you get a lot of backchannel , when somebody 's pausing
PhD B: Yes . Right .
Postdoc F: She 's doing that .
PhD B: Sorry , what were you saying ?
PhD A: It 's hard to do both , huh ? Um {pause} no , when {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when there 's backchannel , I mean , just {disfmarker} I was just listening , and {disfmarker} and when there 's two people talking and there 's backchannel it seems like , {pause} um the backchannel happens when , you know , the pitch drops and the first person {disfmarker}
PhD B: Oh .
PhD A: and a lot of times , the first person actually stops talking and then there 's a backchannel {pause} and then they start up again , and so I 'm wondering about {disfmarker} h I just wonder how much overlap there is . Is there a lot ?
PhD B: I think there 's a lot of the kind that Jose was talking about , where {disfmarker} {pause} I mean , this is called " precision timing " in {pause} conversation analysis , where {pause} {vocalsound} they come in overlapping , {pause} but at a point where the {pause} information is mostly {pause} complete . So all you 're missing is some last syllables or something or the last word or some highly predictable words .
PhD A: Mmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So technically , it 's an overlap .
PhD A: But maybe a {disfmarker} just a small overlap ?
PhD B: But {pause} you know , from information flow point of view it 's not an overlap in {pause} the predictable information .
PhD E: More , yeah .
Grad H: It 'd be interesting if we could do prediction .
PhD A: I was just thinking more in terms of alignment , alignment overlap .
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad H: Language model prediction of overlap , that would be really interesting .
PhD G: So {disfmarker} {pause} so {disfmarker}
PhD B: Well , that 's exactly , exactly why we wanted to study the precise timing of overlaps ins in uh Switchboard ,
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD G: Right .
Grad H: Right .
PhD B: say , because there 's a lot of that .
PhD G: So {disfmarker} so here 's a {disfmarker} here 's a first interesting {pause} labeling task . Uh , to distinguish between , say , backchannels {vocalsound} {pause} precision timing {disfmarker} Sort of {vocalsound} you know , benevolent overlaps , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {pause} and w and {disfmarker} and sort of , um {pause} I don't know , hostile overlaps , where {vocalsound} someone is trying to grab the floor from someone else .
Grad H: Mm - hmm . Let 's pick a different word .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD G: Uh , that {disfmarker} that might be an interesting , um {pause} problem to look at .
PhD A: Hostile takeovers .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah .
Postdoc F: Well , I mean you could do that . I ju I {disfmarker} I think that {pause} in this meeting I really had the feeling that wasn't happening , that {pause} the hostile {disfmarker} hostile type . These were {disfmarker} these were {pause} benevolent types , as people {pause} finishing each other 's sentences , and {pause} stuff .
PhD G: OK .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: Um , I could imagine that as {disfmarker} there 's a fair number of {vocalsound} um cases where , and this is sort of , not {pause} really hostile , but sort of competitive , where {vocalsound} one person is finishing something and {vocalsound} you have , like , two or three people jumping {disfmarker} trying to {disfmarker} {pause} trying to {disfmarker} {pause} trying to , uh grab the next turn .
Grad H: Trying to get the floor .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD G: And so it 's not against the person who talks first {pause} because actually we 're all waiting for that person to finish . But they all want to {pause} be next .
Professor D: I have a feeling most of these things are {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} {pause} that are not {pause} a benevolent kind are {disfmarker} are {vocalsound} {pause} are , uh {pause} um {pause} {vocalsound} are {disfmarker} are competitive as opposed to real really {disfmarker} really hostile .
PhD G: Right .
PhD A: I wonder what determines who gets the floor ?
Professor D: But .
Postdoc F: Yeah , I agree . I agree .
PhD A: I mean {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: Well , there are various things , you {disfmarker} you have the {disfmarker}
Professor D: Uh a vote {disfmarker} vote in Florida .
Grad H: It 's been studied a lot .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD E: Voting for {disfmarker}
Professor D: Um , o one thing {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I wanted to {disfmarker} or you can tell a good joke and then everybody 's laughing and you get a chance to g break in .
PhD G: Seniority .
Professor D: But . But . Um . You know , the other thing I was thinking was that , {pause} um {pause} these {disfmarker} all these interesting questions are , of course , pretty hard to answer with , uh u {pause} you know , a small amount of data .
Grad H: Ach .
Professor D: So , um {pause} I wonder if what you 're saying suggests that we should make a conscious attempt to have , um {vocalsound} a {disfmarker} a fair number of meetings with , uh a smaller number of people . Right ? I mean {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} most of our meetings are {pause} uh , meetings currently with say five , six , seven , eight people Should we {pause} really try to have some two - person meetings , {pause} or some three - person meetings and re record them {vocalsound} just to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to beef up the {disfmarker} the statistics on that ?
Postdoc F: That 's a control . Well , {vocalsound} it seems like there are two possibilities there , I mean {pause} i it seems like {vocalsound} if you have just {pause} two people it 's not {pause} really , y like a meeting , w is not as similar as the rest of the {disfmarker} {pause} of the sample . It depends on what you 're after , of course , but {vocalsound} It seems like that would be more a case of the control condition , compared to , uh {pause} an experimental {pause} condition , with more than two .
Grad H: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Well , Liz was raising the question of {disfmarker} of whether i it 's the number {disfmarker} there 's a relationship between the number of people and the number of overlaps or type of overlaps there ,
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: and , um {vocalsound} If you had two people meeting in this kind of circumstance then you 'd still have the visuals . You wouldn't have that difference {pause} also that you have in the {vocalsound} say , in Switchboard data . Uh
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm . Yeah , I 'm just thinking that 'd be more like a c control condition .
Professor D: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad H: Well , but from the acoustic point of view , it 's all good .
PhD E: Is the same .
Professor D: Yeah , acoustic is fine , but {disfmarker}
PhD G: If {disfmarker} if the goal were to just look at overlap you would {disfmarker} you could serve yourself {disfmarker} save yourself a lot of time but not even transcri transcribe the words .
PhD B: Well , I was thinking you should be able to do this from the {pause} acoustics , on the close - talking mikes ,
Grad H: Yep .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad H: Well , that 's {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} that was my {disfmarker} my status report ,
PhD B: right ?
Postdoc F: You 've been working on that .
PhD B: Right , I mean Adam was {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Yeah .
Grad H: so {vocalsound} {pause} Once we 're done with this stuff discussing ,
PhD B: right . I mean , not as well as what {disfmarker} I mean , you wouldn't be able to have any kind of typology , obviously ,
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD B: but you 'd get some rough statistics .
Grad H: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So .
Professor D: But {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what do you think about that ? Do you think that would be useful ? I 'm just thinking that as an action item of whether we should try to record some two - person meetings or something .
PhD B: I guess my {disfmarker} my first comment was , um {pause} only that {vocalsound} um we should n not attribute overlaps only to meetings , but maybe that 's obvious , maybe everybody knew that ,
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD B: but that {vocalsound} in normal conversation with two people there 's an awful lot of the same kinds of overlap , and that it would be interesting to look at {pause} whether there are these kinds of constraints that Jane mentioned , that {vocalsound} what maybe the additional people add to this competition that happens right after a turn ,
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: you know , because now you can have five people trying to grab the turn , but pretty quickly there 're {disfmarker} they back off and you go back to this sort of only one person at a time with one person interrupting at a time .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So , I don't know . To answer your question I {pause} it {disfmarker} I don't think it 's crucial to have controls but I think it 's worth recording all the meetings we {pause} can .
Grad H: Can .
PhD B: So , um {pause} you know .
Professor D: Well , {vocalsound} OK .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD G: I {disfmarker} I have an idea .
PhD B: D I wouldn't not record a two - person meeting just because it only has two people .
Grad H: Right .
PhD G: Could we {disfmarker} Could we , um {disfmarker} we have {disfmarker} have in the past and I think continue {disfmarker} will continue to have a fair number of {pause} uh phone conference calls .
Professor D: Uh - huh .
PhD G: And , {vocalsound} uh , {pause} and as a {disfmarker} to , um {vocalsound} as another c {pause} c comparison {pause} condition , {pause} we could um see what {disfmarker} what what happens in terms of overlap , when you don't have visual contact .
Grad H: Yeah , we talked about this repeatedly .
PhD G: So , um {disfmarker}
PhD B: Can we actually record ?
Grad H: It just seems like that 's a very different {pause} thing than what we 're doing .
Professor D: Uh Well , we 'll have to set up for it .
PhD B: I mean {pause} physically {pause} can we record the o the other {disfmarker}
Professor D: Yeah . Well , we 're not really set up for it {pause} to do that . But .
PhD G: Or , this is getting a little extravagant , we could put up some kind of blinds or something to {disfmarker} {pause} to remove , uh {pause} visual contact .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad H: Barriers !
PhD B: That 's what they did on Map Task , you know , this Map Task corpus ? They ran exactly the same pairs of people with and without visual cues and it 's quite interesting .
Professor D: Well , we {disfmarker} we record this meeting so regularly it wouldn't be that {disfmarker} I mean {pause} a little strange .
Grad H: OK , we can record , but no one can look at each other .
PhD B: Well , we could just put {pause} b blindfolds on .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD G: Well y no you {disfmarker} f
Grad H: Close your eyes .
Postdoc F: Blindf
PhD G: Yeah , Yeah .
Grad H: Turn off the lights .
PhD B: and we 'd take a picture of everybody sitting here with blindfolds . That would {disfmarker}
Professor D: Oh , th that was the other thing , weren't we gonna take a picture {pause} at the beginning of each of these meetings ?
Grad H: Um , what {disfmarker} I had thought we were gonna do is just take pictures of the whiteboards . rather than take pictures of the meeting .
Postdoc F: Well , linguistic {disfmarker}
Grad H: And , uh {disfmarker}
Professor D: Yes .
Postdoc F: Yeah . Linguistic anthropologists would {disfmarker} would suggest it would be useful to also take a picture of the meeting .
Professor D: There 's a head nodding here vigorously , yeah .
PhD A: Why {disfmarker} why do we want to have a picture of the meeting ?
PhD B: Ee - {pause} you mean , transc {pause} no {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: The {disfmarker} because you get then the spatial relationship of the speakers .
PhD E: Yeah Yeah .
Postdoc F: And that {pause} could be
PhD G: Well , you could do that by just noting on the enrollment sheet the {disfmarker} {pause} the seat number .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad H: Seat number , that 's a good idea . I 'll do that .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad H: I 'll do that on the next set of forms .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD G: So you 'd number them somehow .
PhD E: Is possible to get information from the rhythmic {disfmarker} f from the ge , eh {pause} uh , files .
Grad H: I finally remembered to put , uh put native language on the newer forms .
PhD A: We can {disfmarker} can't you figure it out from the mike number ?
Grad H: No .
PhD A: OK .
Grad H: The wireless ones . And even the jacks , I mean , I 'm sitting here and the jack is {pause} over {pause} in front of you .
PhD A: Oh .
PhD B: But probably from these you could 've {comment} infer it .
PhD G: Yeah , but It 's {disfmarker} it would be trivial {disfmarker}
Grad H: It would be another task .
PhD B: It would be a research task .
Grad H: Having {disfmarker} having ground tu truth would be nice , so {pause} seat number would be good .
PhD A: You know where you could get it ?
PhD B: Yeah , yeah .
PhD A: Beam - forming during the digit {pause} uh stuff .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad H: So I 'm gonna put little labels on all the chairs with the seat number .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Grad H: That 's a good idea .
PhD B: But you have to keep the chairs in the same pla like here .
PhD G: Not the chairs . The chairs are {disfmarker} Chairs are movable .
Grad H: But , uh {disfmarker}
PhD G: Put them {disfmarker} {pause} Like , {pause} put them on the table where they {disfmarker}
PhD E: The chair {comment} Yeah .
Grad H: Yep .
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad H: Yep .
Postdoc F: But you know , they {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} s the linguistic anthropologists would say it would be good to have a digital picture anyway ,
PhD A: Just remembered a joke .
Postdoc F: because you get {pause} a sense also of posture . Posture , and we could like , {pause} you know , {pause} block out the person 's face or whatever
PhD G: What people were wearing .
Grad H: Yeah .
PhD B: The fashion statement .
Postdoc F: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but , you know , these are important cues ,
PhD G: Oh , Andreas was {disfmarker}
PhD A: How big their heads are .
Postdoc F: I mean the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} how a person is sitting {pause} is {disfmarker}
Professor D: But if you just f But from one picture , I don't know that you really get that .
PhD G: Yeah . Andreas was wearing that same old sweater again .
Professor D: Right ? You 'd want a video for that , I think .
Postdoc F: It 'd be better than nothing , is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} i Just from a single picture I think you can tell some aspects .
PhD E: A video , yeah .
Professor D: Think so ?
Postdoc F: I mean I {disfmarker} I could tell you I mean , if I if I 'm in certain meetings I notice that there are certain people who really do {disfmarker} eh {disfmarker} The body language is very uh {disfmarker} is very interesting in terms of the dominance aspect .
PhD G: And {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}
Professor D: Hmm .
PhD G: Yeah . And {disfmarker} and Morgan had that funny hair again .
Postdoc F: Yeah . {comment} Well , I mean you black out the {disfmarker} that part .
Grad H: Hmm .
Postdoc F: But it 's just , you know , the {disfmarker} the body
PhD A: He agreed .
Postdoc F: you know ?
Grad H: Of course , the {disfmarker} where we sit at the table , I find is very interesting , that we do tend to {pause} cong {pause} to gravitate to the same place each time .
Postdoc F: Yeah .
Grad H: and it 's somewhat coincidental . I 'm sitting here so that I can run into the room if the hardware starts , you know , catching fire or something .
PhD G: Oh , no , you {disfmarker} you just like to be in charge , that 's why you 're sitting {disfmarker}
Grad H: I just want to be at the head of the table .
PhD G: Yeah .
Grad H: Take control .
Professor D: Speaking of taking control , you said you had some research to talk about .
Postdoc F: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad H: Yeah , I 've been playing with , um uh , using the close - talking mike to do {disfmarker} to try to figure out who 's speaking . So my first attempt was just using thresholding and filtering , that we talked about {disfmarker} about two weeks ago , and so I played with that a little bit , and {vocalsound} it works O K , {pause} except that {pause} it 's very sensitive to your choice of {vocalsound} your filter width and your {vocalsound} threshold . So if you fiddle around with it a little bit and you get good numbers you can actually do a pretty good job of segmenting when someone 's talking and when they 're not . But if you try to use the same paramenters on another speaker , it doesn't work anymore , even if you normalize it based on the absolute loudness .
PhD B: But does it work for that one speaker throughout the whole meeting ?
Grad H: It does work for the one speaker throughout the whole meeting . Um Pretty well .
PhD A: How did you do it Adam ?
Grad H: Pretty well . How did I do it ?
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad H: What do you mean ?
PhD A: I mean , wh what was the {disfmarker}
Grad H: The algorithm was , uh take o every frame that 's over the threshold , and then median - filter it , {vocalsound} and then look for runs .
PhD A: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Grad H: So there was a minimum run length ,
PhD A: Every frame that 's over what threshold ?
Grad H: so that {disfmarker} A threshold that you pick .
PhD A: In terms of energy ? Ah !
Grad H: Yeah .
PhD A: OK .
Postdoc F: Say that again ? Frame over fres threshold .
Grad H: So you take a {disfmarker} each frame , and you compute the energy and if it 's over the threshold you set it to one , and if it 's under the threshold you set it to zero , {vocalsound} so now you have a bit stream {pause} of zeros and ones .
Postdoc F: Hmm . OK .
Grad H: And then I median - filtered that {vocalsound} using , um {pause} a fairly long {pause} filter length . Uh {pause} well , actually I guess depends on what you mean by long , you know , tenth of a second sorts of numbers . Um and that 's to average out you know , pitch , you know , the pitch contours , and things like that . And then , uh looked for long runs .
Postdoc F: OK
Grad H: And that works O K , if you fil if you tune the filter parameters , if you tune {vocalsound} how long your median filter is and how high you 're looking for your thresholds .
PhD A: Did you ever try running the filter before you pick a threshold ?
Grad H: No . I certainly could though . But this was just I had the program mostly written already so it was easy to do . OK and then the other thing I did , was I took {vocalsound} Javier 's speaker - change detector {disfmarker} acoustic - change detector , and I implemented that with the close - talking mikes , and {pause} unfortunately that 's not working real well , and it looks like it 's {disfmarker} the problem is {disfmarker} he does it in two passes , the first pass {vocalsound} is to find candidate places to do a break . And he does that using a neural net doing broad phone classification and he has the {vocalsound} the , uh {pause} one of the phone classes is silence . And so the possible breaks are where silence starts and ends . And then he has a second pass which is a modeling {disfmarker} a Gaussian mixture model . Um looking for {vocalsound} uh {vocalsound} whether it improves or {disfmarker} or degrades to split at one of those particular places . And what looks like it 's happening is that the {disfmarker} even on the close - talking mike the broad phone class classifier 's doing a really bad job .
PhD A: Who was it trained on ?
Grad H: Uh , I have no idea .
PhD A: Hmm .
Grad H: I don't remember . Does an do you remember , Morgan , was it Broadcast News ?
Professor D: I think so , yeah .
Grad H: Um {pause} So , at any rate , my next attempt , {pause} which I 'm in the midst of and haven't quite finished yet was actually using the {vocalsound} uh , thresholding as the way of generating the candidates . Because one of the things that definitely happens is if you put the threshold low {vocalsound} you get lots of breaks . All of which are definitely acoustic events . They 're definitely {vocalsound} someone talking . But , like , it could be someone who isn't the person here , but the person over there or it can be the person breathing . And then feeding that into the acoustic change detector . And so I think that might work . But , I haven't gotten very far on that . But all of this is close - talking mike , so it 's , uh {pause} just {disfmarker} just trying to get some ground truth .
PhD E: Only with eh uh , but eh I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think , eh when {disfmarker} when , y I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I saw the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the speech from PDA and , eh {pause} close {pause} {vocalsound} talker . I {disfmarker} I think the there is a {disfmarker} a great difference in the {disfmarker} in the signal .
Grad H: Oh , absolutely .
PhD E: Um but eh I {disfmarker} but eh I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean that eh eh {pause} in the {disfmarker} in the mixed file {vocalsound} you can find , uh {pause} zone with , eh {pause} great different , eh {pause} level of energy .
Grad H: So {pause} s my intention for this is {disfmarker} is as an aide for ground truth . not {disfmarker}
PhD E: Um {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think for , eh {pause} algorithm based on energy , {pause} eh , that um h mmm , {disfmarker} more or less , eh , like eh {pause} eh , mmm , first sound energy detector .
Grad H: Say it again ?
PhD E: eh nnn . When y you the detect the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the first at {disfmarker} at the end of {disfmarker} of the {vocalsound} detector of , ehm princ um . What is the {disfmarker} the name in English ? the {disfmarker} the , mmm , {pause} {vocalsound} the de detector of , ehm of a word in the {disfmarker} in the s in {disfmarker} an isolated word in {disfmarker} in the background That , uh
Grad H: I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm not sure what you 're saying , can you try {disfmarker}
PhD E: I mean that when {disfmarker} when you use , eh {pause} eh {pause} any
PhD A: I think he 's saying the onset detector .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad H: Onset detector , OK .
PhD E: I {disfmarker} I think it 's probably to work well eh , because , eh {pause} you have eh , in the mixed files a great level of energy . eh {pause} and great difference between the sp speaker . And probably is not so easy when you use the {disfmarker} the PDA , eh that {disfmarker} Because the signal is , eh {pause} the {disfmarker} in the e energy level .
Grad H: Right .
PhD E: in {disfmarker} in that , eh {pause} eh {pause} speech file {vocalsound} is , eh {pause} more similar . between the different eh , speaker , {vocalsound} um {pause} I {disfmarker} I think is {disfmarker} eh , it will {pause} i is my opinion .
Grad H: Right . But different speakers .
PhD E: It will be , eh {pause} more difficult to {disfmarker} to detect bass - tone energy . the {disfmarker} the change . I think that , um
Grad H: Ah , in the clo in the P D A , you mean ?
PhD E: In the PDA .
Grad H: Absolutely .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad H: Yeah , no question . It 'll be much harder .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad H: Much harder .
PhD E: And the {disfmarker} the another question , that when I review the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the work of Javier . I think the , nnn , the , nnn , {pause} that the idea of using a {pause} neural network {vocalsound} to {disfmarker} to get a broad class of phonetic , eh {pause} from , eh uh a candidate from the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the speech signal . If you have , eh {vocalsound} uh , I 'm considering , only because Javier , eh {pause} only consider , eh {pause} like candidate , the , nnn , eh {pause} the silence , because it is the {disfmarker} the only model , eh {disfmarker} eh , he used that , eh {pause} {vocalsound} eh {pause} nnn , to detect the {disfmarker} the possibility of a {disfmarker} a change between the {disfmarker} between the speaker ,
Grad H: Right .
PhD E: Um {pause} another {disfmarker} another research thing , different groups , eh {pause} working , eh {pause} on Broadcast News {vocalsound} prefer to , eh {pause} to consider hypothesis eh {pause} between each phoneme .
Grad H: Mm - hmm . Yeah , when a {pause} phone changes .
PhD E: Because , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it 's more realistic that , uh {pause} only consider the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the silence between the speaker . Eh {pause} there {disfmarker} there exists eh {pause} silence between {disfmarker} between , eh {pause} a speaker . is {disfmarker} is , eh {pause} eh {pause} acoustic , eh {pause} event , important to {disfmarker} to consider .
Professor D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD E: I {disfmarker} I found that the , eh {pause} silence in {disfmarker} in many occasions in the {disfmarker} in the speech file , but , eh {pause} when you have , eh {pause} eh , two speakers together without enough silence between {disfmarker} between them , eh {pause} {vocalsound} I think eh {pause} is better to use the acoustic change detector basically and I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I IX or , mmm , BIC criterion for consider all the frames in my opinion .
Professor D: Mm - hmm . Yeah , the {disfmarker} you know , the reason that he , uh {pause} just used silence {vocalsound} was not because he thought it was better , it was {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker} it was the place he was starting .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad H: Yep .
Professor D: So , he was trying to get something going ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: and , uh e e you know , as {disfmarker} as {disfmarker} {vocalsound} as is in your case , if you 're here for only a modest number of months you try to pick a realistic goal ,
PhD E: Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . Yeah . Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .
Grad H: Do something .
Professor D: But his {disfmarker} his goal was always to proceed from there to then allow broad category change also .
PhD E: Uh - huh . But , eh {pause} do {disfmarker} do you think that if you consider all the frames to apply {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the , eh {pause} the BIC criterion to detect the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the different acoustic change , {vocalsound} eh {pause} between speaker , without , uh {pause} with , uh {pause} silence or {vocalsound} with overlapping , uh , I think like {disfmarker} like , eh {pause} eh a general , eh {pause} eh {pause} way of process the {disfmarker} the acoustic change .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: In a first step , I mean .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: An - and then , eh {pause} {vocalsound} eh {pause} without considering the you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you , um {pause} you can consider the energy {vocalsound} like a another parameter in the {disfmarker} in the feature vector , eh .
Grad H: Right . Absolutely .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: This {disfmarker} this is the idea . And if , if you do that , eh {pause} eh , with a BIC uh criterion for example , or with another kind of , eh {pause} of distance in a first step , {vocalsound} and then you , eh {pause} you get the , eh {pause} the hypothesis to the {disfmarker} this change acoustic , {vocalsound} eh {pause} {vocalsound} to po process
Grad H: Right .
PhD E: Because , eh {pause} eh , probably you {disfmarker} you can find the {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} eh {pause} a small gap of silence between speaker {vocalsound} with eh {pause} eh {pause} a ga mmm , {pause} {vocalsound} small duration Less than , {vocalsound} eh {pause} two hundred milliseconds for example
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: and apply another {disfmarker} another algorithm , another approach like , eh {pause} eh {pause} detector of ene , eh detector of bass - tone energy to {disfmarker} to consider that , eh {vocalsound} that , eh {pause} zone . of s a small silence between speaker , or {vocalsound} another algorithm to {disfmarker} to process , {vocalsound} eh {pause} the {disfmarker} the segment between marks eh {pause} founded by the {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} the BIC criterion and applied for {disfmarker} for each frame .
Professor D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD E: I think is , eh {pause} nnn , it will be a an {disfmarker} an {disfmarker} a more general approach {vocalsound} the {pause} if we compare {disfmarker} with use , eh {pause} a neural net or another , eh {pause} speech recognizer with a broad class or {disfmarker} or narrow class , because , in my opinion eh {pause} it 's in my opinion , {vocalsound} eh if you {disfmarker} if you change the condition of the speech , I mean , if you adjust to your algorithm with a mixed speech file and to , eh {vocalsound} to , eh {pause} {vocalsound} adapt the neural net , eh {pause} used by Javier with a mixed file .
Professor D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD E: uh With a m mixed file ,
Grad H: With the what file ?
PhD A: " Mixed " .
PhD E: with a {disfmarker} the mix , mix .
Postdoc F: " Mixed . "
Grad H: " Mixed ? "
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Sorry . And {pause} and then you {disfmarker} you , eh you try to {disfmarker} to apply that , eh , eh , eh , speech recognizer to that signal , to the PDA , eh {pause} speech file , {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think you will have problems , because the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {pause} condition {vocalsound} you {disfmarker} you will need t t I {disfmarker} I suppose that you will need to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to retrain it .
Professor D: Well , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}
Grad H: Oh , absolutely . This is {disfmarker} this is not what I was suggesting to do .
Professor D: u {vocalsound} Look , I {disfmarker} I think this is a {disfmarker} One {disfmarker} once {disfmarker} It 's a {disfmarker} I used to work , like , on voiced {disfmarker} on voice silence detection , you know , and this is this {pause} kind of thing .
PhD E: Really ? Yeah .
Professor D: Um {pause} If you {vocalsound} have somebody who has some experience with this sort of thing , and they work on it for a couple months , {vocalsound} they can come up with something that gets most of the cases fairly easily . Then you say , " OK , I don't just wanna get most of the cases I want it to be really accurate . " Then it gets really hard no matter what you do . So , the p the problem is is that if you say , " Well I {disfmarker} I have these other data over here , {vocalsound} that I learn things from , either explicit training of neural nets or of Gaussian mixture models or whatever . "
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: Uh {pause} Suppose you don't use any of those things . You say you have looked for acoustic change . Well , what does that mean ? That {disfmarker} that means you set some thresholds somewhere or something ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: right ? and {disfmarker} and so {vocalsound} where do you get your thresholds from ?
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: From something that you looked at . So {vocalsound} you always have this problem , you 're going to new data um {pause} H how are you going to adapt whatever you can very quickly learn about the new data ? {vocalsound} Uh , if it 's gonna be different from old data that you have ? And I think that 's a problem {pause} with this .
Grad H: Well , also what I 'm doing right now is not intended to be an acoustic change detector for far - field mikes . What I 'm doing {vocalsound} is trying to use the close - talking mike {vocalsound} and just use {disfmarker} {pause} Can - and just generate candidate and just {pause} try to get a first pass at something that sort of works .
PhD E: Yeah !
PhD A: You have candidates .
PhD G: Actually {disfmarker} actually {disfmarker} actually {disfmarker}
PhD E: the candidate .
PhD G: I {disfmarker}
PhD A: to make marking easier . Yeah .
PhD G: Or {disfmarker}
Grad H: and I haven't spent a lot of time on it and I 'm not intending to spend a lot of time on it .
PhD G: OK . I {disfmarker} um , I , unfortunately , have to run ,
Grad H: So .
PhD G: but , um {pause} I can imagine {pause} uh building {pause} a {pause} um {pause} model of speaker change {pause} detection {pause} that {vocalsound} takes into account {pause} both the far - field and the {vocalsound} uh {pause} actually , not just the close - talking mike for that speaker , but actually for all of th {pause} for all of the speakers .
Grad H: Yep . Everyone else .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD G: um {pause} If you model the {disfmarker} {pause} the {pause} effect that {pause} me speaking has on {pause} your {pause} microphone and everybody else 's microphone , as well as on that , {vocalsound} and you build , um {disfmarker} basically I think you 'd {disfmarker} you would {pause} build a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} an HMM that has as a state space all of the possible speaker combinations
Grad H: All the {disfmarker} Yep .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD G: and , um {vocalsound} you can control {disfmarker}
Grad H: It 's a little big .
PhD G: It 's not that big actually , um
Grad H: Two to the N . Two to the number of people in the meeting .
Professor D: But {disfmarker} Actually , Andreas may maybe {disfmarker} maybe just something simpler but {disfmarker} but along the lines of what you 're saying ,
Grad H: Anyway .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: I was just realizing , I used to know this guy who used to build , uh {vocalsound} um , mike mixers {disfmarker} automatic mike mixers where , you know , t in order to able to turn up the gain , you know , uh {vocalsound} as much as you can , you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you lower the gain on {disfmarker} on the mikes of people who aren't talking ,
PhD G: Mmm .
PhD E: Yeah {comment} Yeah .
PhD G: Mmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor D: right ? And then he had some sort of {vocalsound} reasonable way of doing that ,
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: but {vocalsound} uh , what if you were just looking at very simple measures like energy measures but you don't just compare it to some threshold {pause} overall but you compare it to the {vocalsound} energy in the other microphones .
Grad H: I was thinking about doing that originally to find out {pause} who 's the loudest , and that person is certainly talking .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad H: But I also wanted to find threshold {disfmarker} uh , excuse me , mol overlap .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad H: So , not just {disfmarker} just the loudest .
PhD E: But , eh
Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: I {disfmarker} I Sorry . I {disfmarker} I have found that when {disfmarker} when I I analyzed the {disfmarker} the speech files from the , {pause} eh {pause} mike , eh {pause} from the eh close eh {pause} microphone , eh {pause} I found zones with a {disfmarker} a different level of energy .
PhD G: Sorry , I have to go .
Grad H: OK . Could you fill that out anyway ? Just , {pause} put your name in . Are y you want me to do it ? I 'll do it .
PhD A: But he 's not gonna even read that . Oh .
Grad H: I know .
PhD E: including overlap zone . including . because , eh {pause} eh {pause} depend on the position of the {disfmarker} of the microph of the each speaker {vocalsound} to , eh , to get more o or less energy {vocalsound} i in the mixed sign in the signal . and then , {vocalsound} if you consider energy to {disfmarker} to detect overlapping in {disfmarker} in , uh , and you process the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the speech file from the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the mixed signals . The mixed signals , eh . I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's difficult , um {vocalsound} {pause} only to en with energy to {disfmarker} to consider that in that zone We have eh , eh , overlapping zone Eh , if you process only the the energy of the , of each frame .
Professor D: Well , it 's probably harder , but I {disfmarker} I think what I was s nnn noting just when he {disfmarker} when Andreas raised that , was that there 's other information to be gained from looking at all {vocalsound} of the microphones and you may not need to look at very sophisticated things ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: because if there 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if most of the overlaps {disfmarker} you know , this doesn't cover , say , three , but if most of the overlaps , say , are two , {vocalsound} if the distribution looks like there 's a couple high ones and {disfmarker} and {pause} the rest of them are low ,
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
Grad H: And everyone else is low , yeah .
Professor D: you know , what I mean ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: there 's some information there about their distribution even with very simple measures .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor D: Uh , by the way , I had an idea with {disfmarker} while I was watching Chuck nodding at a lot of these things , is that we can all wear little bells on our heads , {vocalsound} so that {vocalsound} then you 'd know that {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad H: Ding , ding , ding , ding .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc F: " Ding " . That 's cute !
PhD B: I think that 'd be really interesting too , with blindfolds . Then {disfmarker}
Grad H: Nodding with blindfolds ,
PhD B: Yeah . The question is , {pause} like {pause} whether {disfmarker}
Grad H: " what are you nodding about ? "
PhD B: Well , trying with and {disfmarker} {pause} with and without , yeah .
Grad H: " Sorry , I 'm just {disfmarker} I 'm just going to sleep . "
PhD B: But then there 's just one @ @ , like .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD A: Actually , I saw a uh {disfmarker} a woman at the bus stop the other day who , um , was talking on her cell phone {vocalsound} speaking Japanese , and was bowing . you know , profusely .
PhD B: Oh , yeah , that 's really common .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah {comment} Yeah .
PhD A: Just , kept {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Ah .
Professor D: Wow .
PhD B: It 's very difficult if you try {disfmarker} while you 're trying , say , to convince somebody on the phone it 's difficult not to move your hands . Not {disfmarker} You know , if you watch people they 'll actually do these things .
Professor D: Mm - hmm ?
PhD B: So . I still think we should try a {disfmarker} a meeting or two with the blindfolds , at least of this meeting that we have lots of recordings of
Grad H: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Um , maybe for part of the meeting , we don't have to do it the whole meeting .
Professor D: Yeah , I think th I think it 's a great idea .
PhD B: That could be fun . It 'll be too hard to make barriers , I was thinking because they have to go all the way
Professor D: W Yeah .
PhD B: you know , I can see Chuck even if you put a barrier here .
Grad H: Well , we could just turn out the lights .
Postdoc F: Actually {pause} well also {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I can say I made barr barriers for {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} the {pause} stuff I was doing with Collin wha {pause} which {pause} just used , um {pause} this {pause} kind of foam board .
PhD B: Y Yeah ?
Postdoc F: R really inexpensive . You can {disfmarker} you can masking tape it together , these are {pause} you know , pretty l large partitions .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD B: But then we also have these mikes , is the other thing I was thinking , so we need a barrier that doesn't disturb {pause} the sound ,
Postdoc F: It 's true , it would disturb the , um {pause} the {disfmarker} the long - range {disfmarker}
Grad H: The acoustics .
PhD B: um
Professor D: Blindfolds would be good .
Postdoc F: it would {disfmarker}
Grad H: I think , blindfolds .
PhD B: I mean , it sounds weird but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} {pause} you know it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's cheap and , uh Be interesting to have the camera going .
Professor D: Probably we should wait until after Adam 's set up the mikes , But .
Postdoc F: OK . I think we 're going to have to work on the , uh {disfmarker} {pause} on the human subjects {vocalsound} form .
PhD A: I 'll be peeking .
Grad H: Yeah , that 's right , we didn't tell them we would be blindfolding .
Professor D: That 's {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: " Do you mind being blindfolded while you 're interviewed ? "
Professor D: that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's the one that we videotape . So . Um , I {disfmarker} I wanna move this along . Uh {pause} I did have this other agenda item which is , uh @ @ {disfmarker} it 's uh a list which I sent to uh {disfmarker} a couple folks , but um I wanted to get broader input on it , So this is the things that I think we did {vocalsound} in the last three months obviously not everything we did but {disfmarker} but sort of highlights that I can {disfmarker} {pause} can {pause} tell {pause} s some outside person , you know , what {disfmarker} what were you {pause} actually working on . Um {pause} in no particular order {vocalsound} uh , one , uh , ten more hours of meeting r meetings recorded , something like that , you know from {disfmarker} from , uh {pause} three months ago . Uh {pause} XML formats and other transcription aspects sorted out {pause} and uh {pause} sent to IBM . Um , pilot data put together and sent to IBM for transcription , uh {pause} next batch of recorded data put together on the CD - ROMs for shipment to IBM ,
Grad H: Hasn't been sent yet , but {disfmarker} It 's getting ready .
Professor D: But yeah , that 's why I phrased it that way , yeah OK . Um {pause} human subjects approval on campus , uh {pause} and release forms worked out so the meeting participants have a chance to request audio pixelization of selected parts of the spee their speech . Um {vocalsound} audio pixelization software written and tested . Um {pause} {vocalsound} preliminary analysis of overlaps in the pilot data we have transcribed , and exploratory analysis of long - distance inferences for topic coherence , that was {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} {pause} wasn't {pause} sure if those were the right way {disfmarker} {pause} that was the right way to describe that because of that little exercise that {disfmarker} that you {comment} and {disfmarker} and Lokendra did .
Postdoc F: What was that called ?
Professor D: I {disfmarker} well , I I 'm probably saying this wrong , but what I said was exploratory analysis of long - distance inferences {vocalsound} for topic coherence .
Postdoc F: The , uh {pause} say again ?
Professor D: Something like that . Um {pause} so , uh {pause} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {pause} a lot of that was from , you know , what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what you two were doing so I {disfmarker} I sent it to you , and you know , please mail me , you know , the corrections or suggestions for changing
Grad H: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: I {disfmarker} I don't want to make this twice it 's length but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but you know , just im improve it . Um Is there anything anybody {disfmarker}
Grad H: I {disfmarker} I did a bunch of stuff for supporting of digits .
Professor D: " Bunch of stuff for s " OK , maybe {disfmarker} maybe send me a sentence that 's a little thought through about that .
Grad H: So , {pause} OK , I 'll send you a sentence that doesn't just say " a bunch of " ?
Professor D: " Bunch of stuff " , yeah , " stuff " is probably bad too ,
Grad H: Yep . " Stuff " {pause} is not very technical .
Professor D: Yeah , well .
Grad H: I 'll try to {pause} phrase it in passive voice .
Professor D: Yeah . Yeah , yeah ,
PhD A: Technical stuff .
Professor D: " range of things " , yeah . Um {pause} and {disfmarker} and you know , I sort of threw in what you did with what Jane did on {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} under the , uh {pause} uh {vocalsound} preliminary analysis of overlaps . Uh {vocalsound} uh {vocalsound} Thilo , can you tell us about all the work you 've done on this project in the last , uh {pause} last three months ?
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD C: So {disfmarker} what is {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} Um . Not really .
Professor D: That 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: It 's too complicated .
PhD C: Um , {pause} I didn't get it . Wh - what is " audio pixelization " ?
Professor D: Uh , audio pix wh he did it , so why don't you explain it quickly ?
Grad H: It 's just , uh {pause} beeping out parts that you don't want included in the meeting so , you know you can say things like , " Well , this should probably not be on the record , but beep "
PhD C: OK , OK . I got that .
Professor D: Yeah . We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we spent a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a fair amount of time early on just talk dealing with this issue about op w e e {vocalsound} we realized , " well , people are speaking in an impromptu way and they might say something that would embarrass them or others later " , and , how do you get around that
PhD C: OK .
Professor D: so in the consent form it says , well you {disfmarker} we will look at the transcripts later and if there 's something that you 're {pause} unhappy with , yeah .
PhD C: OK , and you can say {disfmarker} OK .
Professor D: But you don't want to just totally excise it because um uh , well you have to be careful about excising it , how {disfmarker} how you excise it keeping the timing right and so forth so that at the moment tho th the idea we 're running with is {disfmarker} is h putting the beep over it .
PhD C: OK .
Grad H: Yeah , you can either beep or it can be silence . I {disfmarker} I couldn't decide . which was the right way to do it .
PhD E: Ah , yeah .
Grad H: Beep is good auditorily ,
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad H: if someone is listening to it , there 's no mistake that it 's been beeped out ,
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad H: but for software it 's probably better for it to be silence .
PhD A: No , no . You can {disfmarker} you know , you could make a m as long as you keep using the same beep , people could make a model of that beep ,
Postdoc F: Hmm .
PhD A: and {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: I like that idea .
Grad H: Yep . And I use {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's , uh {pause} it 's an A below middle C beep ,
PhD B: I think the beep is a really good idea .
PhD A: Yeah .
Postdoc F: It 's very clear . Then you don't think it 's a long pause .
PhD B: Also {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah , it 's more obvious that there was something there than if there 's just silence .
Grad H: so
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Yeah .
Professor D: Yeah , that {disfmarker} I mean , he 's {disfmarker} he 's removing the old {pause} thing
PhD E: Yeah
Professor D: and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}
Grad H: Yep .
PhD A: Yea - right . Right . But I mean if you just replaced it with silence , {pause} it 's not clear whether that 's really silence or {disfmarker}
Grad H: Yeah , it 's not {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Yeah , I agree .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad H: Yep .
Postdoc F: One {disfmarker} one question . Do you do it on all channels ?
Grad H: Of course .
Postdoc F: Interesting . I like that .
Professor D: Yeah .
Postdoc F: Yeah , I like that .
Grad H: Yeah you have to do it on all channels because it 's , uh {pause} audible .
Postdoc F: Very clear . Very clear .
Grad H: Uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's potentially audible , you could potentially recover it .
Professor D: Ke - keep a back door .
Postdoc F: Well , the other thing that {disfmarker} you know , I mean the {disfmarker} the alternative might be to s
Grad H: Yeah . Well , I {disfmarker} I haven't thrown away any of the meetings that I beeped . Actually yours is the only one that I beeped and then , uh {pause} the ar DARPA meeting .
PhD B: Notice how quiet I am .
Grad H: Sorry , and then the DARPA meeting I just excised completely ,
Postdoc F: Yeah .
Grad H: so it 's in a private directory .
PhD B: You have some people who only have beeps as their speech in these meetings .
Postdoc F: That 's great . Yeah .
Professor D: OK .
PhD A: They 're easy to find , then .
Professor D: Alright , so , uh {pause} I think we should , uh {pause} uh , go on to the digits ?
Postdoc F: I have one concept a t I {disfmarker} I want to say , which is that I think it 's nice that you 're preserving the time relations ,
Grad H: OK .
Postdoc F: s so you 're {disfmarker} you 're not just cutting {disfmarker} you 're not doing scissor snips . You 're {disfmarker} you 're keeping the , uh {pause} the time duration of a {disfmarker} de - deleted {disfmarker} deleted part .
Grad H: Right .
PhD B: Yeah , definitely .
Professor D: Yeah .
Postdoc F: OK , good , digits .
Grad H: Yeah , since we wanna {pause} possibly synchronize these things as well . Oh , I should have done that .
Postdoc F: It 's great .
Grad H: Shoot . Oh well .
PhD B: So I guess if there 's an overlap , {pause} like , if I 'm saying something that 's {pause} bleepable and somebody else overlaps during it they also get bleeped , too ?
Professor D: Yeah . Oh
Grad H: You 'll lose it . There 's no way around that .
Professor D: Yeah . Um {pause} I d I did {disfmarker} before we do the digits , I did also wanna remind people , uh {pause} {vocalsound} please do send me , you know , uh thoughts for an agenda ,
Grad H: Agenda ?
Professor D: yeah that {disfmarker} that would be that 'd be good .
Postdoc F: Good .
Professor D: Eh So that , uh , people 's ideas don't get
Grad H: Thursday crept up on me this week .
Professor D: yeah , well it does creep up , doesn't it ?
PhD B: And , I wanted to say , I think this is really interesting {pause} analysis .
Professor D: OK .
Postdoc F: Thank you .
Grad H: It 's cool stuff , definitely .
PhD B: I meant to say that before I started off on the {pause} Switchboard stuff .
Postdoc F: Thank you .
Grad H: I was gonna say " can you do that for the other meetings ,
PhD B: It 's neat .
Grad H: can you do it for them ? "
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad H: And , no actually , you can't .
PhD A: Actually {disfmarker} actually I {disfmarker} I thought that 's what you were giving us was another meeting and I was like , " Oh , OK ! "
PhD B: Does it take {disfmarker}
Postdoc F: Thank you . Yeah .
Grad H: " Ooo , cool ! "
Postdoc F: Aw , thanks .
PhD B: How long does it {pause} take , just briefly , like {pause} t to {disfmarker} {pause} OK . {pause} to label the ,
Postdoc F: No . I have the script now , so , I mean , it can work off the , uh {pause} other thing ,
Grad H: It 's {disfmarker} As soon as we get labels , yep .
PhD B: OK .
PhD A: But it has to be hand - labeled first ?
Postdoc F: but {disfmarker} Uh , well , yeah . Because , uh {pause} well , I mean {pause} once his {disfmarker} his algorithm is up and running then we can do it that way .
Grad H: If it works well enough . Right now it 's not . Not quite to the point where it works .
PhD B: OK .
Postdoc F: But {pause} I {disfmarker} I just worked off of my
PhD B: It 's really neat .
Professor D: OK , go ahead
Postdoc F: Thanks . Appreciate that . I think {disfmarker} what I {disfmarker} what this has , uh , caused me {disfmarker} so this discussion caused me to wanna subdivide these further . I 'm gonna take a look at the , uh {pause} backchannels , how much we have anal I hope to have that for next time .
PhD A: That 'd be interesting .
Grad H: Yeah , my {disfmarker} my algorithm worked great actually on these , but when you wear it like that or with the uh , lapel {pause} or if you have it very far from your face , that 's when it starts {pause} failing .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . Oh .
PhD B: Well , I can wear it , I mean if you {disfmarker}
Grad H: It doesn't matter .
PhD B: OK .
Grad H: I mean , we want it to work ,
PhD A: It 's too late now .
Grad H: right ? I {disfmarker} I don't want {pause} to change the way we do the meeting .
PhD B: I feel like this troublemaker .
Grad H: It 's uh {disfmarker} {pause} so , it was just a comment on the software , not a comment on {vocalsound} prescriptions on how you wear microphones .
PhD B: OK .
Professor D: OK , that 's {disfmarker} let 's {disfmarker} let 's {disfmarker} let 's do digits .
Grad H: Get the bolts , " whh whh "
Postdoc F: Let 's do it . OK .
Grad H: OK .
PhD B: I 'm sorry .
Grad H: OK , thank you .
Postdoc F: Do you want us to put a mark on the bottom of these when they 've actually been read , or do you just {pause} i i the only one that wasn't read is {disfmarker} is known , so we don't do it . OK . | |
doc_147 | Project Manager: Alright ? Alright . Thank you for coming to this third meeting of the uh uh design group . Um I think we uh made some definite progress at the last one um and come up with some interesting uh uh w suggestions for our our new remote control . Um I'll again very quickly uh just present some notes of that meeting . Um {vocalsound} the the the problem with existing remote controls , we felt , was that they're ugly um and that people are prepared to pay a premium for something better . Um they've got lots of buttons on them that uh people don't use and find difficult to learn . Um and people lose them . And {vocalsound} We we thought that f for our our new uh uh remote control that everybody will want to rush out and buy , um {vocalsound} that we're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we should look at speech recognition rather than r rather than buttons , and that if we have any buttons they should be very few of them and only for those functions that are actually identified that that people use . That {disfmarker} um {vocalsound} we want to go for uh a long lasting battery that we gua we guarantee for the life of the uh uh the product and a shape that will be instantly recognisable , A_ um as uh a trendy remote control , and and B_ as uh a Real Reaction product . So that w uh when people are uh happy with that , they will they will want to buy uh everything else from us . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay . So again um , I'll {disfmarker} we'll have the three three presentations from the the the three of you and then uh we'll we'll make a a final a final uh decision . Um and the the decisions that we need to to make today , finally , are um what energy source we want to use , whether i it is practical to use uh um a a a long lasting one . And uh I I think our discussion was around the fact that uh if we're gonna go for uh a long lasting power supply , then basically it's uh sealed for life and uh if anybody does manage to run one down , we'll we'll give them another one . And uh it it'll be uh , you know , prominently displayed as part of the th the advertising literature that it's um um , you know , for life , guaranteed for life . Um {vocalsound} now the the the internal chip um {disfmarker} and uh this is where I need uh uh Kate's expert advice
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and given that {vocalsound} th this has to to go to market as quickly as possible um d d do we go for a custom designed chip ? Or or do we buy one off the shelf and and programme it ourselves ? Uh I mean I'm I'm I'm n not an expert on these things , but presumably , there must be loads of 'em already on the market that we can modify .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But uh that that's uh that's your area of expertise . And then the uh , you know , the the overall design of the case uh is is is Kendra's field and uh
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} we we had some discussions last time as as to uh how we might go forward and we'll we'll finalise those uh da today . Um and thi this is all linked in with the the the user interface , whether we p um {vocalsound} go for voice , buttons , or or a bit of both . Uh and then uh , you know , f for the next meeting Kate will be looking at the the the s the look , feel and design , Kendra the uh ho how the the user actually uses it and and Andrew of course the the product evaluation . And uh Kate and Kendra will be producing a a model for us to uh to look at .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh so , if if we can have the the three presentations again please , and uh um p perhaps you'd like to start uh k .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Kate . Oh I'm sorry , oh sorry .
Industrial Designer: Um p there we go .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} 'Kay , I'll just be talking about the components design . And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , basically I just uh looked at what exactly do remotes do . Uh basically they wait for you to press a key or give a voice command and then this is translated uh into uh light signals which are then seen by the T_V_ . Uh the materials we're gonna need to look at {disfmarker} uh the two big ones are the integrated circuit chip and the battery and the in integrated circuit chip uh works in conjunction with a a diode transistor or resonator , uh two more resistors and a capacitor and the battery works in conjunction with a resistor and a capacitor . Um . {vocalsound} Uh basically what happens is you'll press a number or give a voice command and this creates a a connection within the the remote that allows the chip {disfmarker} the chip then senses this connection and produces a signal in a Morse code format . This signal's sent to the transistor which amplifies it and then sends it on to the light emitting diode and uh {disfmarker} which is then trai changed into a infrared light which is sent to the T_V_ and sort of seen by the T_V_ and which uh changes the channels . {vocalsound} Um . Oh . {vocalsound} Uh cool . {vocalsound} Uh so as for how we should end up uh using this in our remote uh t couple of main questions are the buttons . Uh y the fewer buttons you have , I guess the fewer internal connections and internal codes you're gonna need . Um however uh to n not have buttons or to use a voice commands instead of buttons might make these connections more difficult and uh raise the production cost . That's something we should think about . Also we have to work within the company constraints , and the company has informed me via email that uh they're experts at pushbuttons and that seems to be the most uh cost-effective way of producing it . Um also with battery connections the company has some limits on the batteries we can use , so I was thinking perhaps a combination of solar cells with a back-up basic battery and somehow between the combination of that two we might be able to come up with something that uh will last the the lifetime or the five to ten years and we could still keep that original idea . {vocalsound} Um we also need to look at the chips , uh v custom-designed versus off the shelf , and the custom-designed will give us much more flexibility and enable us to incorporate the voice function that we all uh seem to have agreed upon . Um , however that's gonna cost more , but uh the off the shelf is gonna be uh cheaper and it's gonna be {disfmarker} allow us to produce it quicker and get out there faster , but it's going to be less flexible with the features , especially things like uh voice activation , which haven't really been used much on remotes , so there's not really chips out there that would be easy to uh to convert ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay ,
Industrial Designer: so if we were uh definitely gonna go with the the voice option we'd probably have to design um our own chip . {vocalsound} And that pretty much sums it up .
Project Manager: so how um {disfmarker} sorry , can you uh just put that one back up again , please ? Um .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Oh yep , sorry . {vocalsound} Yep .
Project Manager: Uh d d d {vocalsound} okay , I mean uh inevitably a b a custom design chip is gonna be more expensive . Do we do we know uh by how much ?
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound} Um I don't actually have any price information , no . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And and do we know how long it'll take to uh develop a a custom chip .
Industrial Designer: Um it {disfmarker} a lot longer than an off the shelf chip . Oh w yeah , we did {disfmarker} the the problem is the the the voice technology is not really highly developed ,
Project Manager: Right ,
Industrial Designer: it's sort of still still in an ex experimental form ,
Project Manager: okay .
Industrial Designer: uh so it would uh {disfmarker} it's hard to predict the time . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Right , I think we need to make a a decision here . Uh given that the company wants this on the market quickly and cheaply ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: that would appear to uh effectively constrain us to an existing chip and thus therefore conventional button technology . Um uh now before we go round everybody else , does anybody um h have any have anyti ha anything to say about that ?
User Interface: I {disfmarker} I just have a question about that . Um does it make a difference if there are just a few commands , for example if you um can pre-programme in like numbers one through ten and pre-programme say , you know , nine channels and then just use the voice recognition to say channel one and then you've programmed in say B_B_C_ four as your channel one , as your favourite , it's like to have a certain number of favourites um
Industrial Designer: W just to to incorporate the voice activation in it is is sorta the trick .
User Interface: and that w
Industrial Designer: Once you've got the whole voice chip in there , then it's pretty much the the world {disfmarker} the the sky is your limit ,
User Interface: Okay . Then it doesn't matter . Okay .
Industrial Designer: but to actually {disfmarker} the the big step is to actually get the voice activation chips in there and working .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Cause uh I {vocalsound} must say I find it slightly surprising given that , you know , mobile phones incorporate voice activated dialling . So uh um I mean
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I d d for slightly different {disfmarker} well no , I mean , it's if you you {disfmarker} speak somebody's name and it'll dial the number for you , so uh bu I mean the this this information is from {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} this is the internal company information , is it ?
Industrial Designer: Uh bits of it , yeah .
Project Manager: So uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Of course mobile phones do tend to be more expensive ,
Industrial Designer: Yes , as well .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: you know , hundred and fifty pounds or something . As opposed to the twenty Euros , twenty five Euros .
Project Manager: Yeah , mm true , again but if it's without any without any uh p price informations that's uh difficult to uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: uh decide .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Also lots of mobile phones have got a lot of technology in them , not just that , so .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah , that's that's right . It's like {disfmarker} it's it's {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker} 'cause mobile phones are expensive , you can't say it's the voice recognition bit that is .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: But we don't know . Um . {vocalsound} I mean uh I su i I mean if {disfmarker} given that the um the technology is not well developed and and given that it's it's never been done before , um th th the double risk , uh perhaps we ought to uh stick to uh to buttons , since the last thing we want to do is present a product that doesn't work . Um . Thoughts ?
User Interface: Well , another thought I {disfmarker}
Marketing: Would {disfmarker}
User Interface: oh , sorry , go ahead .
Marketing: Oh I was just gonna say mayb maybe it sh like um {disfmarker} maybe we can like cut corners somewhere else to bring in over cost .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I mean do w do we think that the voice technology is fundamental to the project ?
Industrial Designer: Uh it's fundament well I mean I guess it it's something we've discussed uh since the the sort of the beginning , so I th I think in in our in our minds it's it's fundamental , but I don't know that the uh the upper echelons of the company would necessarily agree with that , so I think you have to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I mean I think we {disfmarker} {gap}
User Interface: Oh yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Hm .
User Interface: {gap} Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well , I kinda think if we're gonna have the voice recognition for part of it , then maybe we should have it for the whole thing .
Project Manager: Yeah , I I I I I think that's uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: And we've been talking about it the whole time .
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm , mm .
User Interface: Anyway , I'm I'm incli kinda inclined to say that we should just go for it .
Project Manager: Mm , right , okay .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Uh yeah , {gap} it's the second most important aspect to users that the device should be technologically innovative .
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: From uh my presentation show , so .
Project Manager: Yeah , it should be {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh technologically innovative .
Project Manager: Right , okay , so .
Industrial Designer: No ,
Project Manager: Fine . Okay .
Industrial Designer: that sounds good . Mm .
Project Manager: I it will have voice recognition um uh
Industrial Designer: Mm . Cool .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: if if that means uh if that means we can't afford buttons but I mean b b {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: second question , do we need the five buttons for channel change , up down , {vocalsound} volume up down and on off , just as a a backup or just so that people can uh j j just sit there pressing buttons ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I I would say we do , yeah .
User Interface: I think so .
Project Manager: Right . Okay . Sorry , d did you want to say anything ? No ?
Industrial Designer: Uh nope ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: that was it , that was it .
Project Manager: Shall we move rapidly on to uh Kendra ?
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Uh um ra rapidly move the cable over .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Let's see .
Project Manager: Mm . Oh good .
User Interface: Oh . Yes . Is it gonna work ?
Project Manager: Mm yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's thinking about it .
Project Manager: it'll get there . Yep .
User Interface: Okay . Okay ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: so I did some research on the internet and um {vocalsound} what {vocalsound} {disfmarker} you know , the interf user interface are just aspects that are seen by users , um commands and mechanisms for the operation , and there're just kind of a variety of choices . Um findings , so a lot of times they tend to look cluttered
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and these were just a couple examples of um different kinds that are a little bit more unusual .
Project Manager: Mm , yeah .
User Interface: There're some special ones available , like this one right here ,
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
User Interface: which is marketed towards children , um different designs ,
Project Manager: Alright .
User Interface: and one of the things that n we need to watch out for is a V_ in volume because people some {vocalsound} Bring a little picture of what I thought ours could look like {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So just kind of minimise the clutter ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: avoid too many buttons and also um {vocalsound} one of the things that people have used is a slide button , like you have on a mouse , that possibly we could use that on the sides for volume , for example , have the slide button on the side ,
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: and then you can pre-programme the channels , the voice recognition and then the voice response sample locator .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm yeah . Sorry y y yeah , {vocalsound} if I can interrupt you . Well d {vocalsound} p 'kay , do you wanna say anything about um slide controls ?
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: I mean I think the reason everybody uses pushbuttons is that they're they're si simple , cheap and reliable .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh I think they're they're about the same cost really . I I mean , I think it's just sort of {disfmarker} the the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} there's a lot of slide buttons out there . I think it's pretty much the same sort of connection . Mm yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , fair enough , fine .
User Interface: Just because I n for example if I'm using a mouse I like to be able to slide it up and down
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: so I thought it might be good for volume to just be able to kind of roll it and then have the up and down
Project Manager: Yeah . Good , good .
User Interface: and then the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: this is my great little drawing .
Project Manager: So three three {disfmarker} there's three buttons on a slider .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Three buttons , channel up channel up down and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Y yes , yes .
Marketing: Well , if you g if you if you got a channel up down , we can have a slider in that as well . Because if it {disfmarker} if you no
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: if you notice on the thing it it kind of like has got kind of {disfmarker} if you you know it s kind of like sticks , if you know what I mean , up like one unit , if you see what I mean .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: So it kinda goes up one , then y like you can keep rolling it up , but it's like like like like a cog or something .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Marketing: So you kinda take it up one at a time .
Project Manager: Okay . Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: The only advantage I was thinking of to having the buttons , like the buttons on one side for the channel , and then the slider is that if you're just holding in your hand , and you pick it up , it's easy to n s know , okay , this is just the volume and this is the channel .
Marketing: D
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh .
Project Manager: This one on the one side and one {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh you could you could {vocalsound} as l as like a mouse you could {disfmarker}
Project Manager: yeah . Okay .
Industrial Designer: Ye yeah , 'cause I've definitely picked up remotes and like meant to change the channel and turn the volume , or vice versa ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so it'd be kinda good to have them be {disfmarker} feel completely different . You'd know what you were fiddling with .
Project Manager: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: or {disfmarker} yeah uh th th the {disfmarker} I mean thi this is what the {disfmarker}
User Interface: That was {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , like the shape of it almost like a mouse , with a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: we have to come up with is the the actual shape that people can ins instantly pick it up and and know know uh know what it's going to do .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , so we we're looking at sliders for both a {disfmarker} uh volume and channel change
User Interface: Um well
Project Manager: of one sort .
User Interface: I was thinking kind of just for the volume ,
Project Manager: Just for the volume , uh .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: but what what do you guys think ?
Marketing: Dep I dunno if it {disfmarker}
User Interface: We could {disfmarker}
Marketing: depending on the final shape of it , 'cause you could have like , I dunno , {gap} it looks like you can c control the volume with your thumb ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah .
Marketing: and then you could control the buttons with your fingers .
Project Manager: Fingers ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: 'cause if {disfmarker} yeah , in that kinda position the fingers would be better for pressing and the {disfmarker} that for rolling ,
Project Manager: It {disfmarker} yeah , I mean it it it seems to me that uh it uh it al also has the advantage that it it {disfmarker} the two are clearly different ,
User Interface: B
Industrial Designer: just the way it would {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah , yeah , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: um that there's no no possibility of uh confusing the two .
Marketing: Oh yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: So okay . Right so uh
User Interface: I'm just gonna pass this along .
Project Manager: that's {disfmarker} sorry is that that all you want to say at the mo
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: okay , fine .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm right .
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Here we go .
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh yeah , this is my report on trend watching .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: The data's come off internet uh from executive summary for us on the top three things wanted by the consumer . And we got reports from Paris , Milan on new fashions .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And uh the most important aspect is the l the look {disfmarker} it has to look fancy , look and feel
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: uh instead of the current functional look and feel . This is a st well I was gonna say yeah twice as important as the second aspect ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: which is the technologically innov innovative um side of it . So uh and the third being easy to use is probably a given , we have to try and incorporate , so uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well I I mean I th I think that what we're suggesting ought to address all three of those .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh exactly , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I s that out of sequence ? Uh yeah , sorry . Uh yeah , and uh from the fashion watchers from Milan and Paris have said fruit and vegetables are an important theme for clothes and furniture and shoes , et cetera .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh .
Marketing: Uh sorry , clothes , shoes and furniture
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Marketing: and uh a spongy material to be used on the {vocalsound} on the outside .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm I hadn't thought of that , that's different , certainly .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . But uh I was gonna say um yeah ,
Project Manager: What ?
Marketing: fruit and vegetables , uh important to {disfmarker} this year um important to furniture , I'm just gonna say uh {vocalsound} f like it's in {disfmarker} if if fashion {disfmarker} if we're going for the it looks fancy , then fashion is obviously the line we gotta be going through .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: But fashions do don't last very long .
Industrial Designer: Well that can kinda tie into our changing uh face things , like we could have the fruit and vegetable theme this year
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and uh whatever happens next year , we can have the face plates ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah , we can have a sp like a spongy skin on it
Industrial Designer: yeah .
Project Manager: Uh .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
Marketing: and then we can just whip that off and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: yeah .
User Interface: Yeah like the kind you get on like hand weights . You know , that kind of spongy {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm , yeah , that weird {disfmarker} I dunno what that is ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh .
Industrial Designer: but yeah .
User Interface: yeah .
Marketing: A kind of {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Also means you can drop it without damaging it .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh {vocalsound} , yeah , it's good as well . Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , that's true .
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} c cool . Um {vocalsound} you have {disfmarker} we could {disfmarker} if we could save {disfmarker} depending on the cost of the product itself , you know , could we have uh a cheaper b cheaper power source and then just have it annually renewed ? Instead of having a ten year guarantee ? With interchangeable covers , could just buy a new one every year , a new one when new fashions come out .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I I mean it its uh I {disfmarker} that's an interesting idea , it's like the old Swatch watch where uh um on only batteries ever got changed in those , 'cause people just bought a new one when it went out of fashion ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: but it's just never been seen as a a fashion item before . Um that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Wh
Project Manager: yes if if if they're made in sufficient quantity {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} I think it's easier sometimes to have them buy changeable covers for it than to buy a whole new one , because you don't feel like you're investing in a whole new product .
Project Manager: W I mean we we can uh uh b but I mean my feeling is that current power sources are such that for relatively little cost you can make it last , you know , a long time .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Mm . Yeah .
Project Manager: Um but if we also make it cheap enough that people either change the cover every year or even buy a new one every year then it it's it's even better .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Mm .
User Interface: What if we included the batteries in the cover ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah . I like that .
User Interface: So um
Industrial Designer: That all c also kind of encourages 'em to buy new covers
User Interface: like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , so can I see that thing ?
Project Manager: S
Industrial Designer: Um .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah ,
User Interface: Just {disfmarker} this as examples .
Project Manager: I n I know {disfmarker} the only p I mean the the the the immediate thing that comes to mind with that is that it it it {disfmarker} y you've then got the connection
User Interface: So f
Project Manager: and you've immediately got a sort of unreliability , whereas the advantage of having it plumbed in is that that the whole thing is all , you know , completely soldered together
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah .
Project Manager: and it it it {disfmarker} you know , total reliability ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah , I guess that's true .
Project Manager: but I mean I d I I uh I know what you're saying and uh understand where you're coming from .
Marketing: Or {disfmarker} well , but like uh like more than just the battery , like a complete different {disfmarker} like you've only got like , you know like th uh this bit's the bit you keep , and this is the expensive bit , this is like the chip
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and this is the microphone . And then this is the power source and the bit everyone sees . And then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I th I s I think if we're gonna go down that route , then we're talking about uh {disfmarker} even if it costs slightly more than that , um just building the whole thing in one , then having {disfmarker} getting cheaper production costs
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , you probably are right .
Project Manager: um and , you know giving people the option of buying a new uh {disfmarker} a a complete new thing , the advantage of a replaceable cover is that even if they don't {disfmarker} it doesn't have a cover on at all , it will still work um totally .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah , that's true .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Um then if , you know , if people lose the cover , I mean they they might be well inclined to go out and spend however many Euros on a on a new one um rather than a a complete new re remote .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Well that that's just it with the covers , you're sort of tricking 'em into continuing to spend their money on our products without making 'em feel like they're being ripped off having to buy a new product .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , I mean it is {disfmarker} it's up to it's up to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So ,
User Interface: Yeah , just another five Euro to get {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: it's it's up to our marketing people to to ma to ma turn it into a a fashion item .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Right .
Industrial Designer: Mm , yeah .
Project Manager: Um and , you know , as as external fashions change , then we get new new covers on the market and , you know , readily available .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: And um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And that's the sort of thing , once you get the mould set , you can just whip out different colours , different pictures very very quickly .
Project Manager: {gap} that's that's right , yeah , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , like they have for mobile phones
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah , exactly , exactly .
User Interface: that are just fruits and animal prints and colours .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So uh i so uh okay . {vocalsound} Um right ,
User Interface: Yeah , okay .
Project Manager: sorry . Um we hadn't finished your {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} oh , don't worry it's all said , I was just gonna say uh {disfmarker} yeah , are we gonna make this as part of like like uh {disfmarker} a part of the f like it it {disfmarker} the fashions apply to furniture , so are we gonna make this part of the furniture ?
Project Manager: It's the sort of thing that we want people to have prominent dis displayed on their um coffee table to say this says something about me .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um this is fashionable .
Marketing: Yeah . This is fashionable
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: with {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I , you know , I'm I'm I'm with it , I'm up to date . And you know , th the the design that I've got , and and it could be a a home-made design , um you know this says this is not just a a television remote control , this is , you know , a fashion accessory . Um , so I mean the the the basic shape i is is what we uh {disfmarker} I mean given that we've got you know one one on off button presumably , two buttons for uh channel change and one slider and basically nothing else ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: um w we need to decide on the {disfmarker} just the basic shape of the thing . And , know whether we go down the fruit and veg route , and I don't suggest we make it look like a banana , but um know sort of the the organic , you know , curved look ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: you know , t to deliberately get away from the uh um {vocalsound} uh you know , the the the the square look of most um current uh remotes
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Oh yeah .
Project Manager: and , you know , whether whether the you know , the the fixed part of it is the corporate yellow . Um mm or uh {disfmarker} 'cause there's certainly you know , the the corporate logo needs to be prominently uh displayed so that people s th looked at it and say right , that's a Real Reaction remote control , I want one of those .
Industrial Designer: I dunno that we should make the whole thing yellow I kinda thought with a {disfmarker} you'd have like a yellow circle with the R_R_ in it somewhere on it ,
Project Manager: Yeah uh the the uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} or or b
Industrial Designer: but I'd {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: yellow seems a bit of a strong colour
User Interface: like an {gap} .
Project Manager: Yeah , I'd I'd um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: to make the ent like the thing {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: yeah . Uh no
Industrial Designer: no , but I mean just like white or grey or black or some sort of blah colour .
Project Manager: I d I I agree , I mean we're we're we're simply {disfmarker} it's simply required to incorporate the the the the corporate logo prominently um .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound} . Mm {vocalsound} .
Marketing: And make that a fashion symbol as well . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well n
Project Manager: Well , th this is {disfmarker} this is the whole point , yes , you know , I'm {disfmarker} I've got a a Real Reaction uh remote control to go with my Real Reaction coffee maker or or whatever .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And uh then people , you know , people demand more Real Reaction stuff .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Well I was sort of mm kinda picturing like maybe um {vocalsound} a shape that's almost like a mouse .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Yeah .
User Interface: So that , you know , when they hold it it's {disfmarker} because a mouse is pretty comfortable to hold in your hand um maybe we could make it a slightly different shape so they could hold on to it , but that way they can have the volume on the side and then the channel buttons and
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: have the power , wherever , somewhere .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: I mean I've uh {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: I mean that was just an idea that I had .
Project Manager: Oh no that {disfmarker} well there's the sim {disfmarker} my my idea was something a b probably you know a bit fatter than this but sort of tha that sorta shape
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah , maybe .
Project Manager: so that you can just sort of ho hold it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , you'd want it narrower than a mouse though
User Interface: Kind of a c
Industrial Designer: 'cause it {disfmarker} a mouse you're kinda just resting on it , you want something you can definitely grip .
Project Manager: W it {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} well it's sort of it's it's sort of uh a a mouse ,
Industrial Designer: So maybe it'd be {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: Sort of a combination .
Project Manager: but held , you know , so it's {disfmarker} you sorta hold it in your hand like that , i with , you know , and fiddling with the buttons .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , and fiddle around with it and press it .
User Interface: Yeah so {disfmarker} yeah , kind of maybe maybe a little wider than this , 'cause this is pretty comfortable to hold , and then if you had {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Maybe almost like a hairbrush , like you could get the {disfmarker} about the width of that end of the pen and then it widens up top
User Interface: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: and you can fiddle
User Interface: then wider up here .
Industrial Designer: an yeah .
User Interface: And then it would have a l uh wider thing to uh have the light , the infrared light at the T_V_ and just kinda change channels and adjust the volume
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Mm .
User Interface: and the power could be wherever , up up the top or something .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , cool .
User Interface: What do you guys think about that ?
Project Manager: Okay , yeah , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , that sounds {disfmarker} Um I'm just {disfmarker} I'm suddenly realising that yeah we're discussing how much {disfmarker} how good it's gonna be to change channels t we still can just tell it to . I mean are we are we starting to get away from the the voice functionality of it ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's a very good point .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: It is a very good point .
Project Manager: I think we d I think we decided that w we're actually going down both routes . That um the {vocalsound} we n
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: we need the the manual controls and that they should be of that form , but that uh {disfmarker} yeah {vocalsound} .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker} do you know , this shape also kind of les lend itself to to voice {gap} 'cause if you're you're holding it and you're fiddling , but you can also bring it up like that
Project Manager: Then you just bring it up to your mouth and just speak to it ,
Industrial Designer: and it's microphone-esque ,
User Interface: Yeah , and just say {disfmarker}
Project Manager: yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , maybe we cou like w like we're leaving out the buttons for the the f less frequently used stuff ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: but maybe we could incorporate that into the voice .
Project Manager: I th I th honest uh {vocalsound} my personal view is that if it's not there , people wouldn't use it anyway um .
Marketing: Mm I suppose , but t there is the off chance that , you know , th the brightness is wrong on your T_V_ or the contrast needs changing .
Project Manager: It's cer it's certainly possible I mean , but they {disfmarker} we we're going beyond w w
Industrial Designer: Bu Mm .
Project Manager: given the state of the technology {vocalsound} we want something that we kno we know will will work um .
Marketing: Hmm yeah .
Industrial Designer: Well you can still i incorporate the voice with with less buttons . I mean {vocalsound} uh if the power button was also somehow like a menu button you could press that and {disfmarker} or do voice commands , and {vocalsound} either volume thing could also be to scroll through other options like y and you could scroll through brightness
Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: and and sc
Marketing: that's a good idea .
Industrial Designer: and then you can you can minimise the buttons
User Interface: Yeah , I suppose I sup
Industrial Designer: and still have those , you know , brightness and tint and stuff .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: If we we're {disfmarker} I mean {vocalsound} I'm getting a clear message that we think that we should have those facilities available .
User Interface: So I guess we could have a menu button as well .
Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound}
User Interface: We could have the channels and the power and then a menu button and then the volume .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: So have four buttons and the volume instead of three buttons and the volume .
Project Manager: Uh uh uh
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , if we if we're going down that route , then we need some sort of display . Do we need some sort of display ?
Industrial Designer: But the television would be the display
Project Manager: We actually use the television , okay . Okay , okay , okay .
User Interface: Yeah , that's on the T_V_ , yeah .
Industrial Designer: that {disfmarker} things like that usually c pop up on a televi like you hit menu
User Interface: Yeah , and then y
Industrial Designer: and menu will come up on television and have like tint brightness , and you'd use the scroll , scroll through it yeah .
Marketing: Well I mean
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: on a {disfmarker} onto like a mouse , the ru the scrolling button , is actually a button as well , you could press it , you could press that and have it as a menu button .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah , that's true .
User Interface: Yeah , press that is t
Industrial Designer: I never understood how that worked though ,
User Interface: yeah , that might work .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , it's like um {disfmarker} yeah , it's like the mouse where you just kinda click it . You just press it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , mm .
User Interface: Yeah , and you could just click that to {disfmarker} so if you had like the menu then you could scroll through and then click it to select .
Industrial Designer: Mm , oka yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: You know what I mean ?
Marketing: Uh yeah .
Project Manager: Mm yeah . Okay , we got five minutes to go in this meeting ,
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: so um I d I think we've actually very conveniently just uh come to uh a good point to s to sum up um .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Cool .
Project Manager: So um b b Kate and Kendra now go away and uh pa play play with a bit of Plasticine or play-dough ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Play with play-dough . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: whatever it is on the other side of the Atlantic .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um and actually put what we've discussed into something uh {disfmarker} I was gonna say concrete ,
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: but that's a slightly inappropriate word {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: um to something that we can we can see and um Andrew n can go away and th th think about how we can uh actually market this as a concept and not j not just a uh um a a simple remote control .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh can I just get some things clear just for {vocalsound} my sake .
Project Manager: Yeah , certainly , of course .
Marketing: Our energy source is gonna be
Project Manager: I think I think we decided that we're gonna {disfmarker} for
Marketing: long term .
Project Manager: for simplicity of , you know , manufacturing and uh maintenance that we will go for a a long term battery source um ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Cool . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I {disfmarker} you know , on the basis that um that , you know , if we're going for making it a fashion statement , then uh people are more likely to change it anyway uh before i it runs out and um {vocalsound} make an assumption that we we can aim for a battery that will last most people for uh we'll say at least five five ten years
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: and that we'll w we will guarantee it for for five years um .
Marketing: And we're having a custom chip ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We're having a a custom chip , but given the the {disfmarker} we've cut the functions down , um that will hopefully not be too problematic , but given that um technol technological innovation is important ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: then we need to , I'll say it again , technologically innovate .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um and uh we we , know , we must resist any efforts to uh to try and water that down um .
Marketing: And interchangeable case ?
Project Manager: I i interchangeable case seems to be um {vocalsound} um important to the concept .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Um it it should be cheap , you know , if if we avoid any , you know , electrical connections .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: And uh i you know , i if we can come up with some way of of allowing people to actually personalise it uh to whatever they want , then uh {disfmarker} I mean uh uh this is totally new .
Marketing: Mm , mm-hmm .
Project Manager: We d we don't know whether that {disfmarker} to what extent people do it or not , but if they've at least got a a good selection of um covers that they can use anyway , and uh and if if we can keep them , you know , rolling , then uh {disfmarker} you know , so they can get them in the supermarket when they go down to um a any of the famous supermarkets , I won't mention any mention any names ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: um it's uh it's good for the supermarket
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and it's good for us and it hopefully makes them feel better .
Marketing: And uh are we gonna have it il being illuminated from inside onto the buttons or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um the {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I mean that's {disfmarker} no , because we've got so few buttons that it {disfmarker} that actually makes that redundant .
Industrial Designer: Mm , does actually , yeah , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , I think so too .
Marketing: Cool .
User Interface: Yeah , and especially for making them so like different and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm different to feel ,
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: And the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: you know , that that solves one of the problems of b of battery life , 'cause that would {disfmarker} well that would clobber the battery life ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Yep , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: so no , I mean given the nature of the buttons we're having , it's actually uh uh unnecessary I think .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Are we having it that it's any angle , or is it just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} As uh as wide
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: {disfmarker} cer certainly wider angle than than current ,
Marketing: As wide as possible .
Project Manager: so that if you're holding it , you know , anyway like you're likely to and uh it's uh {vocalsound} you know , i i it will work most of the time um .
Industrial Designer: Mm {vocalsound} yeah .
User Interface: Like this or like this .
Project Manager: Not like my my mum who points it at the ceiling and wonders why the th th the television doesn't work .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um yeah , I mean I d I th I sorta envisaged that if if this was the the thing , then sort of the the whole of the top would be the uh the infrared uh .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah , kinda like this whole {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , mm .
Project Manager: Um so {disfmarker}
User Interface: So you could use like this and it would go {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah , 'cause I mean the r reality is people are {vocalsound} {disfmarker} they're gonna be looking at the television whilst they're using it , the chances are , so if if they're holding it anyway , the they're reasonably likely to be holding it to use it ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: then uh then that that's the sort of coverage that we want .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um okay , d we're all clear where we go from here .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yep .
Industrial Designer: Yep , sounds good .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay , so thank you very much indeed and I'll s see you all again in thirty minutes .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay . | |
doc_148 | Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Siân Gwenllian, and I'm very pleased to welcome Helen Mary Jones, who is substituting for Siân today. Can I ask whether Members want to declare any interests, please? Can I just, then, place on record that I have got a son who was about to do A-levels, so is affected by the exam decision? We'll move on, then, to our substantive item today, which is an evidence session with the Welsh Government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, who is director of the education directorate; Huw Morris, who is the group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning; and Rob Orford, who is the chief scientific adviser for health. Thank you all for coming. We know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone, and we appreciate your attendance. Minister, I understand you wanted to make an opening statement today.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, if that's okay, Chair. As you know, it's not usually my practice to do that, but I think it is important today. COVID-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the Welsh Government and the people of Wales have dealt with in recent times. Dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging. Things are changing on an hourly basis, and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety. But I would like to assure you that our aim, and my aim, and my main concern as the education Minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings. But we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education. Public health is clearly the priority here, but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education, unless absolutely necessary. So, the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly, but I believe it was necessary, given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground. From next week, schools will have a new purpose. They will help support those most in need, including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak, and I'm working with my colleagues in the Cabinet, with Government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans. The key areas that we're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning. This includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs. I can confirm that all maintained schools in Wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class Hwb digital learning platform, including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities. A guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely. Yesterday, I announced that, whilst there are no easy choices, we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series. Learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work, drawing on a range of information that is available, and I will announce further details shortly, but I felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff. I would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn. We need to continue to do this work together, as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus. Diolch yn fawr.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much, Minister, for that statement. We'll go to questions from Members now, and I've got some questions from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Can I thank you, Kirsty, for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you've been having to make? You've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly, and we understand that that is the case across Government. So, thank you for what you've been doing. You've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose. I take from what you're saying that you haven't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like. You've talked about the children of key workers, free school meals, additional learning needs. Is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Dawn. So, you're absolutely right, our priority now is to operationalise, with colleagues in local government and schools, a practical response. And I have to say, we're working to timescales that I would have hoped to have avoided, but given the fact that we're having to make these decisions quite quickly, I hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on Monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward. Steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on, but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend, and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on Monday. Our other priority is indeed free school meals, and, again, where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on Monday. Again, we're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on Monday, and, again, individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation. The same thing also goes for additional learning needs, and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners. So, those conversations began a few days ago. I had the opportunity to meet with the First Minister and Andrew Morgan, the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association, yesterday to talk about what local government could do, and what they were already doing. Those plans in some places are already quite developed, and are now working at pace, but I hope you will understand that where we start on Monday is the emergency response, and that work will develop as we go forward. But, Steve, perhaps you could—? Because Steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff, rather than me. Steve.
Steve Davies: In short, the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people. In some cases, some of the response to supporting free school meals, in the short term in particular, we may use the schools as part of that, and I'm certain that will happen in some cases. The second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers. Now, there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers, but I think it's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday—I spoke with all 22 directors of education, and the examples we're picking up in their work with schools is they're already ahead of the curve in working with schools. So, schools have identified the number of children with health workers. It will grow, and we will need to look at that range. Then, the third area is vulnerable children. They're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school, vulnerable in terms of mental health, and for those children, as well as having an experience that we want to be planned, some have compared it to a snow day, particularly on Monday, when you're putting something together in the short term, but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through. So, the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities, some will be cultural, some will be sporting, and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children, which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools, but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children. What we are doing currently—I have staff back at Cathays Park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify, at least at the earlier stage, in terms of health workers, the type and numbers of people. There are already schools who have informed us, and local authorities, of their plans for these activities to be starting next week, which is quite amazing, actually, given where we are. But we are expecting, and we're writing to schools today, that during the course of next week, headteachers to be in schools, and with their staff, taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in, and in that period from next Monday through the two-week period, to Easter, we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post Easter, but also, as I said, building on and reflecting the good practice that's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities, and I'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on Monday. So, Monday will be a challenge for some, and not all will be delivering it, but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks, and particularly to have resilient programmes post Easter for the groups of children in those three categories that I said.
Dawn Bowden AM: Those that have been identified. Can I just clarify one thing? One of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register. They would be included.
Steve Davies: Yes, definitely. Vulnerable children, yes.
Kirsty Williams AM: In our discussions, we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation. We know that, for some children, being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements, and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs.
Steve Davies: I wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that, for those children, the register is up to date and the plans are in place. I'm working with Albert Heaney my colleague, the director for social services, who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a supplementary from Hefin, and then Suzy.
Hefin David AM: A very quick and simple question: how are you going to communicate this to parents? There's a bigger picture and it's changing all the time, as you said. The Welsh Government have a route to communication. The most helpful thing I've seen is that Public Health Wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus. How will this then be cascaded to schools, because there's obviously a time lag? So, have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents?
Kirsty Williams AM: We're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across. So, we're using the more informal methods of communication, but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools. Welsh Government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus. We're looking, as quickly as we can, to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update. Understandably, people are communicating to us on Twitter asking questions. It is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending Facebook messages and sending tweets, so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that. With regard to parents, for instance, we're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying, 'Do you consider yourself to be a key worker? Do you work in the NHS? Please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children.' So, schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be. And, as I said, Hefin, will it be perfect on Monday? No. It won't be perfect by Monday, because we're working to such constrained timescales. But we will continue to build that resilience. We also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week, given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment. But that public health advice may change. Therefore, have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances? These are some of the challenges that we're having to grapple with. So, as I said, what happens on Monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in May. So, I hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, just on this question of vulnerable children, I'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services' care or on a risk register or whatever. Teachers know their pupils and, very sensitively, they could include people who may not be obviously in need.
Kirsty Williams AM: We would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors. As you said, quite rightly, they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children, perhaps, will need this extra support. We will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. The second part of my question is: there were going to be Easter holidays anyway, weren't there? What was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period? Has that gone out of the window now, the normal holiday provision for children? Because that's not there normally, is it, except in separate—
Kirsty Williams AM: We do find ourselves in a strange situation. My understanding is what we're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange, 'You get this for two weeks, then you don't get it for two weeks, and then you're back in.' My understanding is, in England, that is what they're going to do. We're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays. It won't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks. We're trying to create a system that will run uniformly. That's our policy goal at the moment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Helen Mary.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Just briefly, building on Suzy's question, one particular group of children and young people that I hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers. For some of them, they may not be able to come into school because the people they're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions. But I think that, for other young carers, coming to school is an absolute lifeline, because they're working at home. So, I don't know if it's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities, but it's a group of young people who, again, may not be vulnerable in other ways, but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school. And the other group—and this, I suppose, goes back to Suzy's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse. Again, these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services, but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be. So, again, I'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools. If a teacher is worried about what a child's circumstances are like at home, whether they can be, as you said, Kirsty, included as one of the—. They may not be formally identified, but if the teacher knows that they're at risk, or there is an instinct that they're at risk, they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you're making at this difficult time.
Kirsty Williams AM: We will certainly raise those issues. We have to do that in the context of what is deliverable, and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well. One of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease. We know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still. So, we will take these issues into consideration, but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan. Rob is the expert on that, not me.
Rob Orford: Yes, absolutely. This is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we haven't seen in 100 years, and so we're having to evolve and iterate things as we go. Next week, I think, will look different to this week. So, it kind of is what it is. We've all got a role to play, and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission. Areas that we're worried about are displacement activities. If we close the schools, then people collect at others' houses. We need to send a really clear message that you're all part of the solution, and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak. The more that we can do that, the easier it will be when we go forward.
Helen Mary Jones AM: I'm sure that that's true, but I'm sure that we wouldn't be wanting a child who's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad—. It may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time. Hopefully, we're talking about relatively small numbers, but I just—.
Kirsty Williams AM: We will look at vulnerability in a holistic way.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, you had a supplementary.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning, Minister, and your team. Can I just put on record my thanks for all that you're having to endure at this moment? I think it's fair to say you have the support of Assembly Members and, indeed, our communities. Now, the question I have: if Cylch Meithrin have to close, where will they get money from to pay their staff? Because, currently, thankfully, there's support for businesses.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, we're not doing Cylch Meithrin at the moment; we are sticking with schools, as we discussed in advance. Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Can I just get some clarity, Steve, around what you were saying in terms of next week? Because I think the practical applications of this—and I understand that you don't know all of this yet, I understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us, obviously, with constituents saying, 'Well, what's going to happen to that?' Just so that I can be clear, are you saying that, at this stage, every headteacher will be in school on Monday, as will all their staff?
Steve Davies: Within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health, the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the Minister today, to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils, but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in; for some to start the delivery of what we just described, but that will probably be small numbers, but more importantly to plan to ensure that, after the formal Easter period, which is school holidays, the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we've been discussing.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, would you anticipate—again, I know this is all a bit 'if and when', and it depends on the changing nature of the advice, but from what you're saying, I think we can probably anticipate that, as we go forward, there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites. Would that possibly—?
Kirsty Williams AM: That is a potential. So, we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way. That local authority has already chosen those locations, and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres. So, that could well—. That, I expect, in the longer term, will be the nature of the provision that we will get to. But that's not for us to dictate. The local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best, pragmatic use of the resources that they have available; and of course those resources, primarily, are human beings. So, we've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff, teaching assistants, but we're also having discussions with local authorities, and I met with the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services this week, to look at deploying youth workers, to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ, like sports development officers. There may be cultural officers that can have something to offer. Welsh Government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities can't continue at the moment, but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort, who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term, to be able to provide a great place for children to be. We want to give parents, who we are asking—. Let's think about it, in these worst of times, we're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work, and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk, potentially. And we want to give those parents confidence that, when they leave their child with us, that child will receive something really worthwhile, and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job.
Lynne Neagle AM: Just before you—. Janet, have you got a supplementary on schools now, not on early years settings?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I lost the signal before, so it's a little bit confusing at this end, so bear with me. Just in terms of the closure of schools, I have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it, but bear in mind [Inaudible.]—mean in practice. And also, they're already asking what will next—? I know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week, but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work?
Lynne Neagle AM: We've covered that, Janet.
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, Janet, I just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments. That's really, really kind of you. We will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions. So, each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week.
Lynne Neagle AM: I think you're having trouble hearing us, aren't you, so I think—?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: No, I heard that loud and clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: But I think you missed the earlier comments, when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools. So, I'm sorry about that; we are having some problems with the connection.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, we couldn't get a signal.
Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, they're absolutely central to that planning. We know, again, that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families. Therefore, the same situation that we've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools. We'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings. In some cases, that may not be possible. So, again, already local authorities are making different provision. Can I give a shout out to the work of Rhondda Cynon Taf in this regard, who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools. But, again, Steve can give more detail.
Steve Davies: I think special schools have already been hit by this challenge, because a significant proportion of their children, because of their conditions, have not been coming to school, they've been isolated. But the principle we've used there is, actually, even if it's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable, they deserve and need that support through the school. So, we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children. But similarly, even in special schools, there will be children whose parents will be key workers, so we would expect them to apply that same principle. Just quickly in response to the earlier question, while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools, we’ll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely, given the nature of the special school, so we would look to cater for that within the original school.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just a couple more questions from me. It’s likely, because I know it has already happened, that some schools might actually close before Monday. Some schools have already partially closed. Are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that, if they feel that’s the right thing to do?
Kirsty Williams AM: In this situation, the discretion of the head still remains. As I said, we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations, if at all possible, to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we've just talked about.
Steve Davies: The rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they can't cope with the safety of the children. I think, moving forward, it's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future.
Dawn Bowden AM: We're only talking about one more day, now, anyway, aren't we? So, just in terms of confirmed cases in schools, is your view at this stage that, if there is a confirmed case in a school, once that school has been deep-cleaned, it can reopen again?
Kirsty Williams AM: If we had a confirmed case in a school, then all the usual mechanisms arranged by Public Health Wales would kick in at that point.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. And my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings. I know that kind of crosses over into somebody else's portfolio as well, but I think we know that. Certainly what I've seen, and I'm sure this is true elsewhere as well, we've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries. I've got one in particular, there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there, and the parents are taking them out. They've got 30 staff there, catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation, at this stage, is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages. Is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. As you say, many of these settings are businesses—people's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it's a very worrying time for them. We have said that we will continue to pay for childcare, delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable, or a parent is unwilling, to take up that place. So, if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the Welsh Government as part of our childcare offer, that will be paid, regardless of whether that child attends or not. And I know that we're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on Flying Start childcare and early education. So, that payment will be made, regardless of whether a child is attending. It's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague, Ken Skates.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin, then Janet.
Hefin David AM: Yes, I'd just like to turn that around from the parents' point of view. With schools closing, there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare, but from a settings point of view, they'll continue to be able to receive, for the time being, the nursery care.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, so the decision that has been taken by my colleague, Julie Morgan, is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes. That's being kept under constant review on public health. Again, the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families, especially—and we're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems. If you have any specific questions about that, we'll be happy to take them back to Julie Morgan.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Is this the Cylch question?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, please.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Sorry, thank you. Yes, just basically, Cylch Meithrin, there are concerns—[Interruption.]
Lynne Neagle AM: We've lost Janet. We'll come back to her.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think if the issue is about funding for Cylch Meithrin, these are not normal circumstances. As a Welsh Government, we will take every step to provide continuity of funding, if at all possible. We will overcome this, and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in, we will need those childcare settings, we will need those private businesses and we will need our Cylch Meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us. And if there is any way that we can, as a Government, ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things, even if they are not able to run, all usual—[Inaudible.]— around service-level agreements are off. I'm not setting the precedent—let me make that absolutely clear. [Laughter.] But, you know, we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like Cylch by withdrawing Welsh Government funding. I hope I've been clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you for that.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Kirsty.
Lynne Neagle AM: If we can move on to talk about exams, obviously you made the announcement yesterday. I completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation, but, as you know, there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who've put a lot of work in. Are you able to tell us any more today? In particular, have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken, but I have done so on the very, very clear and unambiguous advice from Qualifications Wales. I met with Qualifications Wales and the WJEC yesterday. What was most important to them was that I made an early decision and I did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams. I was able to make an informal decision at that meeting, and then, of course, there is a formal process that we have to go through. That, now, allows Qualifications Wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision, and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work. We are trying, as far as we can, as I understand it, to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day, for instance. It might not be possible, because, of course, we're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it, and those human beings could find themselves unwell. So, our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in August, but that has to be caveated by the fact that we're dealing with difficult circumstances. But, the WJEC and Qualifications Wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Janet, you had a question on this.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, I think I raised it yesterday, Kirsty, but you were receiving loads of questions. I'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework, because only 30 per cent of that is done. Years 11 and 13, typically, in my case they're what's been raised with me—do you have any advice for them?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay, so, all exams are cancelled, but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—I think that's a distinction that people need to be aware of. That is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications, and they are points of movement in the education system. So, it's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next, whether that be university, whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form, into a college, into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities. That's why we have to focus on those children, because for them, it is absolutely critical that we do. We are at an advantage in Wales, can I say? Because of the nature of our examination system, those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on. Because we've kept our AS-levels, we have got that data. Because we have a GCSE system—. Our year 11s, if they're doing triple science, they've already done 40 per cent of their paper, so we're very fortunate. Because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system, there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use, alongside, potentially, teacher evaluation of students as well. And I think that's really important. We’re starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data. What will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications, and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within Wales, and I know that Qualifications Wales are discussing with their counterparts across the UK a modulated system across the UK. So, actually, we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the UK. So, we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade. So, they can have real confidence.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Helen Mary.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you. A supplementary question that might feed into that moderation. You'll know that the National Union of Students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class, on the whole, don't do as well, in terms of their assessment by their own teachers. I don't know what their evidence is for that. We also know, of course, that boys tend to do better in exams, and girls tend to do better at coursework, for whatever reason that is. So, just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you're talking about. And, of course, you are right to say that, because we have got some elements of external moderation here, those factors may be less for us in Wales than they might for colleagues in England.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, I think we are starting at a different base, thank goodness. So, you're quite right. As I said, students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they're GCSE students. Dare I say it, some might even have done early entry. So, we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified. So, children might well have done lots of oral exams in their English and in their Welsh language. So, we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified. I certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on. I'm sure that Qualifications Wales are thinking about it. I have every confidence that they and the WJEC will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades, but I have to say, in some ways, I have to step back now, because you would not expect me, in normal circumstances, to dictate to the WJEC how much percentage goes for that, and how much percentage is allocated for that; that would not be appropriate for a Minister. My job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable, and I have confidence that that will be the case.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: A few things from me. One is, obviously, pupils are being asked to work at home as well now, some of whom will be doing GCSE and A-level courses. So, there's just a question, generally, from me— because we're encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by Qualifications Wales, I guess, in this modulation process. It may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting. Secondly, you mentioned the AS-levels, of course, as being of value at the moment, but we've got people in Year 12 who now won't be doing their ASs. Is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do? Will they be doing two sets of exams next year, for example? Or is AS just off the table? In which case, how are the A2s going to be calculated in due course? And then, finally from me, we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your BTECs, and I think it's the Association of Accounting Technicians, which is a lot of computer-based learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks. Those aren’t A-levels or GCSEs. I appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment, but are they off as well is the question, I guess?
Kirsty Williams AM: With regard to AS-levels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated. There are a range of options that could be used, but again, we will want to be thinking about student well-being, fairness and equity in that regard, and I will update Members as soon as I have received definitive advice from Qualifications Wales around that, and that hasn't happened yet. With regard to other types of qualifications, as you will be aware, the vast majority of BTECs is a modular, continually-assessed piece of work, and we would have every expectation that BTECs will be able to be awarded, but clearly, those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be UK awarding bodies, rather then necessarily our WJEC exam board—and those conversations are ongoing. But I have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and, of course, because of their nature there's even more evidence of continued assessment. Huw, I don't know if there's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications.
Huw Morris: No. I think you've covered most of it. I don't have a definitive answer for the ATT qualification, but we can look into that and come back to you.
Suzy Davies AM: Well, I've just had a constituent ask, so that would be very helpful. And homeworking—
Kirsty Williams AM: Homeworking, right.
Suzy Davies AM: —is that going to count towards the assessments, overall assessments?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, potentially, as I said. I don't know the exact elements. What will be absolutely necessary is that Qualifications Wales and the WJEC will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at, because parents, teachers and students will want to know that, and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades.
Suzy Davies AM: That's great. At least we covered it. Thank you, Minister—thank you, Kirsty.
Lynne Neagle AM: And, just before we move on, have the universities across the UK indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis?
Kirsty Williams AM: Certainly. There have been discussions with universities and UCAS, of course, that this also has a bearing on. One of the—. And the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we've factored in to making these decisions. Those discussions with universities are ongoing, aren't they, Huw?
Huw Morris: Yes. So, we've been in regular conversation with Universities Wales and through them with Universities UK and we've received every indication that the approach that's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions. Those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Well, we've got some questions now from Suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's a very general question, really. I appreciate you've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations, but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion. We're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly, which may impact on the answer you can give today, but what sort of conversations are you having with FE and HE at the moment about how they decide?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, you're absolutely right. As we often say in this committee, universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question. Universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them. Colleges are in a similar position, looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods, and the Bill, potentially, does give us more powers of intervention in both the FE and the HE sector.
Suzy Davies AM: I might ask you about that in a minute, because I don't even know what the Bill says yet.
Kirsty Williams AM: Huw, I don't know if there's anything you want to add.
Huw Morris: No—just to confirm what's been said and also to add in that independent training providers, similarly autonomous, like colleges and universities, have been moving in the same direction. We've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies. We've got consistency in the approach and a common desire, and investment in moving towards online support for students.
Suzy Davies AM: And there's still this safety net idea. Certainly, colleges have indicated, as with schools, that, for the most vulnerable learners, they'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis.
Huw Morris: That's my understanding, yes, and, again, we've been in regular conversation with them about that. My understanding is that they're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions.
Suzy Davies AM: That's fair enough. And, presumably, education maintenance allowance will still be paid.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Arrangements have been made to ensure that EMA continues to be paid to all students who are entitled.
Suzy Davies AM: That's right. You indicated that any Welsh Government support's going to stay, whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. I'm doing my best, but it's an absolute yes on the EMA. There will be no disruption to EMA.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. You might get some further questions on HE and FE.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. We've got some further questions, indeed, from Helen Mary and then Hefin.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Now or in a bit?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Just further to EMA, of course, at the moment, that has an attendance qualification, doesn't it? And you don't get your EMA if you don't turn up. Should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification doesn't apply anymore?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. They can't turn up if the institution is not open, and that's not their fault.
Helen Mary Jones AM: No, but that is something that's been a worry, so that's really encouraging to hear. Thinking about students in higher education, can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal? Is that the intention?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That's really good to hear. And have you given any special ministerial instruction to Student Finance Wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances, or is that something that's kind of ongoing at the moment?
Kirsty Williams AM: Those conversations are ongoing with the Student Loans Company. As I said, we anticipate no disruption to—. We don't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this. Individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the Student Loans Company would respond to that. All I would say is, just to remind people: people who work for the Student Loans Company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else. There will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery, simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the Government. So, I think we just need to bear that in mind: that these organisations are doing their best, but, if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus, then I hope people will give them due consideration.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Yes, that makes sense, of course, because we've been told that universities won't be able to entirely close, because there will be students who can't go home—
Kirsty Williams AM: It is their home.
Helen Mary Jones AM: —overseas students, for example. What discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students' basic needs are met, that there's still food, shelter, whatever they need?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, obviously, universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances, and every conversation that Huw's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that.
Huw Morris: We instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease, not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in China and other parts of south-east Asia. And so, as the disease has progressed, we've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the UK, and I am assured that the universities here in Wales have got processes in place that support those learners.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That's really helpful. And on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees, should the academic year not be completed?
Huw Morris: So, as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online, clearly, there are lessons that will need to be taken on board. There are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs. The intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study. There are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed. Failing those institutional mechanisms, there is a UK-wide system through the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have. So, we're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: No, Mr Morris has answered my question.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners. I've got Helen Mary, then Hefin.
Helen Mary Jones AM: I think, Chair, the Minister has already answered what the—. But thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings, or, indeed, young people who can't access educational settings, what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that is correct. So, our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which I think, if we're honest, we have to acknowledge is what we're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff, for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins, potentially, or FaceTime check-ins, with students, just to keep in touch with them as we go forward. We'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so, for instance, Meic website—so, looking to use a variety of platforms. We do, of course, have the formal NHS counselling services. I'm concerned, of course, that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school. We know that, and we're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they don't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor. They're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue, as far as possible, those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered, and their worries. I think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people. One of the reasons, again, that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we've needed and wanted to maintain. Children will have worries about their own health; they'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves. So, we need to understand, and I think we will also have to recognise, that this support will have to be ongoing once we're back to normal, and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience. They are incredibly resilient, and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages. They are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands' and things like that than even adults have been. So, they are incredibly resilient, but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Can I just—? Just a supplementary to that—you've mentioned already, Kirsty, the importance of youth services, and, particularly thinking voluntarily youth services, you've given the commitment, when were talking about Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin earlier, that services that are part-funded by grants through the Welsh Government, for example, thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well? Obviously, local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open, but, in terms of the direct support from Welsh Government, can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time?
Kirsty Williams AM: No formal decision has been made, but if people are in receipt of a Government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public—
Helen Mary Jones AM: Because it's not safe.
Kirsty Williams AM: —because it's not safe to do so, I do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying, 'We'll have our money back, thank you very much.'
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That will make a lot of people happy, thank you. [Laughter.]
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, we are facing unprecedented circumstances. The normal rules of engagement have to change and, those organisations, we'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal, and we wouldn't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that. Our call to the youth service is a call to arms, though. When we're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children, they have a valuable role to play and I know that local government and the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services are already in discussion about how youth services—. Many of our youth services work on an outreach basis. Those traditional youth clubs, because of austerity, are not necessarily there anymore, so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work, and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Hefin, briefly, and then we're going to take one final question from Suzy on emergency legislation.
Hefin David AM: All right. I'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs, although the question I'm about to ask doesn't reflect her interests. Additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they're currently waiting an outcome of a referral, will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal? And, if it is suspended, will it pick up where it left off from this point?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised. I'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs, but that might not be possible. I will have to check that, Hefin, to be honest. I don't want to give you any false assurance if, actually, the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen. But we don't—
Hefin David AM: Can we have a clear line on that?
Kirsty Williams AM: We don't want to jeopardise anybody, but as I said, some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Final question—because I know that the Minister's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from Suzy on emergency legislation.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not going to ask you if you'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation, but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. For instance, the Bill will provide Welsh Ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions, childcare premises; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so, actually, the other way around, force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources. So, that includes, as I said, I could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down. The powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in, if that was part of our resilience needs. We'd also be looking at, for instance, relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings, or we might be wanting to do things around food. So, obviously, we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children. If there is a continuing role for schools in providing food, we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like. So, those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things, direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one, in all fairness—in those situations where it's the Government who says 'no' to various things, does that then help people in the situation of Dawn's nursery, and insurance claims suddenly become more likely?
Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not an expert on insurance, and I don't know if anybody here can help me. But what my understanding is, is that even where Government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance. What we're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out, because even when a Government has directed it, they do not regard this as a disruption to business. So, the insurance industry is not my area of expertise.
Suzy Davies AM: No, no, I accept that.
Kirsty Williams AM: It's not my area of expertise, but from what I understand from discussions around the Cabinet table, this is particularly problematic. Let me give you an example about how we've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad. Trying to make sure that that direction came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, rather than the Department for Education was a real battle, because again there were fears that, unless that advice came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, insurance would not kick in, and that was a two-day discussion.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. This is helpful to know, actually.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, these are the kinds of things that we're grappling with. But, as I said, thinking about it, that was only last week, but it feels like an aeon ago.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not holding you to that, but it helps us manage the questions we get asked.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, but as I said, insurance is not my area of expertise.
Suzy Davies AM: No, but thank you for answering.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending this morning, and your officials? We do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is, and we'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you're doing to try and see us through this crisis. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Thank you again, all of you, for your attendance. Item 3, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Thank you. | |
doc_149 | Marketing: Right first time this time . Nu There we go . It's not that complicated , but I get it wrong every time . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay so we are just waiting for Matthew {gap} .
Marketing: For Matthew , yep .
Project Manager: Mm . Uh {disfmarker} So I suggest we start the meeting uh without Matthew uh
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm 'kay .
Project Manager: he's uh obviously late for some reason . {vocalsound} Good . Um . Today uh we will uh talk about uh conceptual design . I hope uh you both did some uh some work uh concerning a uh conceptual design .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um this will be the uh agenda for the meeting uh {gap} . Uh I will take some minutes uh again .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um we will have the presentations of y of you different team members ,
Marketing: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: and then try to come to decisions uh about the concepts uh you have presented . So and that uh will uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: we have some uh forty minutes uh to complete this uh .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So um who has the fir do you ha Anna do you have your presentation ready ?
Marketing: I have a presentation , I'm just making this {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah the {disfmarker} Matthew it is it's important that Matthew yeah is here
Project Manager: Okay . Ah
Industrial Designer: because it's really a a team uh project with a team
Project Manager: there is Matthew .
Industrial Designer: and if someone is not here then we cannot {disfmarker}
User Interface: Sorry .
Industrial Designer: but it's okay {vocalsound} it's good . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay I'll just email you this file , my presentation .
Project Manager: So . Good . Do {gap} presentation ready ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm I'm just emailing it to you .
Project Manager: Oh okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So did you manage uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah I sent you the slides , you didn't see them ?
Project Manager: Oh yes I see him , good yes .
User Interface: Okay . {gap} .
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} 'Kay .
Marketing: Okay it should've gone through to you .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay mm yes I have it .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Okay so this is just a presentation on uh the trends that we're gonna use to make the product stand out from the rest of the products out there at the moment . Um can I just put this on ? So we have to work out a way {disfmarker} what we can do with our product to make it stand out and make it so people wanna buy it . Um . This is {disfmarker} to do this I will not remove my microphone . {vocalsound} We basically used um some focus group surveys which I went through with you last time , the main results of that , and um some research on the current design um and fashion trends that are out there at the moment um ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and as part of this {disfmarker} The important aspects that came out were things that we've already discussed really . The most important by far was the look and feel of it . It needs to be something that's very different from everything else out there . It needs to stand out {vocalsound} . It needs to be not functional like the rest of the things out there at the moment . Most people find remote controls boring at the moment , we need to have something that looks interesting , that looks exciting , that will stand out . People will wanna buy it . Um {disfmarker} That was twice as i important as the next item on here which is that it has to be technologically innovative {disfmarker} has to have something else , apart from just the look of it . People have to then think about it and say {gap} got something there that I want . That's a really cool feature , and it has to make them wanna buy it again . Third on the list , and again innovative was twice as important as this last um aspect , it has to be easy to use . So they have to be able to {disfmarker} be able to look at it and have some intuitive idea of how to use it um . Drawing on the fashion trends at the moment , uh fruit and vegetables um . This is basically talking about just the the feel of it , so probably not the smell of it , but the bright colours , um eye-catching , really bold designs , and a spongy feel .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Um I had a talk to the design people about this , but having a remote that's tactile , that feels different , that would be really cool . That would make it stand out . Um .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: So can you repeat and be more precise about what you just said ?
Project Manager: Spongy feel ?
Industrial Designer: Uh about the feeling yeah uh yo
Marketing: Well
User Interface: {vocalsound} You can {disfmarker}
Marketing: ma make it not necessar sp spongy is the current thing . Spongy is the current texture , but basically there are no reports no remotes at the moment which are spongy or tactile at all , so if we make it like maybe furry or soft or something , that'll be something that sets it apart ,
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: rather than just bare plastic which they all are at the moment .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So as far as the design goes , the very most important aspect was the design , to the customers . So going with the fruit and vegetable idea , we've got the bright colours , so makes it stand out , the oranges and the the bright yellows and the florescent colours , part of the fruit and vegetables um . Going back to the idea of taking inspiration from mobile phones , they've all got those {disfmarker} a lot of them have the changeable covers , so they can choose what colour the outside is . That's one way of looking at it um . Textured feel we just talked about . Maybe it's another way of doing that .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So if it's part of the the changeable covers then may maybe they can choose a different texture , a spongy one or a soft one or something like that . So they can choose it li as they want to to maybe {disfmarker} to fit in with their decor in their living room , or just what they like , their sports team or whatever .
Industrial Designer: Yeah that's a very good idea , yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: Um and yeah , still taking the inspiration from the mobile phone design so functionality , the way the mobile phones work , the way the keypad looks . Also just the way that a lot of industrial design is going into mobile phones at the moment . They're big selling items . People put a lot of thought into that so we can leverage off that , and we can start using some of their ideas . Um back to technological in in innovation , not quite as important , but still a big issue . Um we talked about having a way of finding a remote control if it's been lost , uh that's one thing we could look at . There are other aspects like L_C_D_ screens and speech recognition which weren't {disfmarker} I don't think , in my personal opinion , gonna be worth the extra expense and the extra effort that will go into them . I think we're better doing something basic like this
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: which is very important and very {disfmarker} will be a really cool feature to put in . And {disfmarker} {gap} use . I had no real specific ideas for this , maybe we just , the basic idea of having your core functions big and at the top maybe , by themselves ,
Project Manager: Mm . Yes well
Marketing: and then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: maybe Matthew can can give some more information on the {disfmarker}
Marketing: yeah
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {disfmarker} and then th th the finer details of buttons you don't use as much either hidden away or completely separate .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Yep {vocalsound} and that's the presentation .
User Interface: Voila .
Project Manager: Okay good , that's very clear .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah very clear .
Project Manager: 'Kay . Um . Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: So does anyone have any comments or ideas on that ? I think you {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Maybe we yes well we maybe {vocalsound} can decide later on um {vocalsound} the l the the look and feel of uh I've {disfmarker} it was a good idea maybe to to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: To let the people choose , {gap} you mean ?
Project Manager: Yes the the the there are changeable covers ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: but on the other hand I I don't know whether my superiors would be so glad with it because {vocalsound} you have to introduce a complete uh uh new l line of uh of supplies
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: uh it would be uh very complicated uh organisational {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well we're selling so many units of this . This is gonna be a mass marketed product , we can afford to have two or three different designs at least .
Project Manager: Hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah a range of uh yeah , a set of three , four different aspects .
Marketing: Mm mm .
Project Manager: Yes . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Sure that fits the {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes {gap} and of course it will be a we we get a {disfmarker} if it works we can get uh after-sales
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: I mean that would {gap} would be very good I mean those covers could go for for three , five Euro {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: That's a very good idea um {disfmarker} And then uh maybe uh we can go a th Matthew's presentation because
User Interface: Yeah
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: s
Project Manager: the {disfmarker}
User Interface: then we could discuss later like {disfmarker} we can put all ideas together .
Project Manager: Together indeed uh ,
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: It should be easier with that .
Project Manager: because you ma might have some some information on the the easy to use ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah I agree .
Marketing: Mm-hmm , yeah .
Project Manager: what you were already mentioning .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And your part is very related to mine
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: because when you suggest something then it has to be integrated inside .
User Interface: Yeah so {vocalsound} I'll I'll go with that actually
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: so um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Okay so m so {vocalsound} then the the idea of uh having a remote is generally you have uh different keys and uh different structures , different forms , and uh they could be like buttons and um they could be of uh a varying sizes if you want to to uh basically emphasize a particular key more than the other , and uh maybe like you can have different colours for example having the r red for the on off switching on and off the button . So this this is the general trend to ha the method they do . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So what I have found was that uh currently uh the {gap} they are mostly that the T_V_ , V_C_R_ , music system operated ones actually , and they are very specific to each other , but there are some common keys for example if you want to follow the V_C_R_ and if you want to follow the uh g uh s some uh soundtrack on the w w see they have the common thing actually you can have
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: and uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} There is also um a speech recognition to store channel information , names , like {disfmarker} You can basically {disfmarker} if you have a multiple functionality , say T_V_ , V_C_R_ or something I say it to the T_V_ and the {gap} T_V_ , and you can programme the keys if you want to , certain keys are even the channel information {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Mm . Mm . I like the idea though of having speech recognition for like the n the name of a channel like B_B_C_ , rather than having to remember the the number of it on the keypad . That's a good idea .
User Interface: Yeah yeah so you you you can just uh because uh as more and more channels come then you have more and more problems to remember the v v exact channel numbers ex exactly ,
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: even if you arrange it by {disfmarker} however you arrange it , you still have the problem to remember exactly which channel you want to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm . Mm . Yeah I really like that idea .
Industrial Designer: So what functionalities do you suggest for that ? For facing this problem ?
User Interface: So it it it's like it {gap} limited one . In the present market I saw it that says something like they are looking for {vocalsound} eighty word thing , eighty word ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: which shouldn't be th that difficult to implement , like eighty to hundred word . Basically you want you don't want to store all the channels in the remote control ,
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: you want to st store your favourite channel .
Marketing: Maybe ten channels , yeah at the most .
User Interface: Yeah some ten twelve channel information . You know you don't want to st store all the hundred channel information into that .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: And uh basically uh it depends like the remote with L_C_D_ display for browsing because you have multiple functionalities for example you are watching a movie , and uh uh you are {vocalsound} having a universal remote control and you want to uh you don't know really which functionality is {gap} now , so I am using the T_V_ so every time I use it , it could be like , for example I can use a simple toggle switch , and a display , so I press it so the display says , okay , I'm in T_V_ or D_V_D_ or whatever it is , instead of having three keys separately for four keys ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Oh yeah yeah yeah mm .
User Interface: to model the functionalities will increase actually ,
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: and for you and you might want {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: you don't want separate keys for all of them . You can't . And uh well there can be children friendly where you can programme your remote so that they they are not allowed uh to browse certain channels which you can block them , and you can operate them . So these are the things presently which are seen in the market scenarios at present .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I personally would look at {vocalsound} things like having a u universal remote , is uh um is a good idea , like instead of having {gap} unusual ones for all of them you can think of having , um with multiple functionality possibly with speech recognition .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I got a mail from the the coffee machine interface unit that uh they have uh integrated the s speech recognition into a into the coffee machine ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm b
User Interface: and so if you say hello coffee machine , it say hi Joe , or something like that , you know , and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: But a coffee machine , there's not too many words they'd be using with that it's a it's a small vocabulary .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah you you won't be using it , so it's a limited vocabulary mm thing , and very isolated word
Marketing: Mm . Mm .
User Interface: and it's uh it is interesting , and basically storing the channel through voice or other ways of programming your keys , on the display for the browsing
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: which is again {disfmarker} and maybe having something like a blinking thing , like uh it could indicate you're uh {disfmarker} it it could indicate what is cal like the uh whether uh you you have enough battery in your in your uh remote , the blinking .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: At the same time , if it's a dark room , it can be used to locate the remote also
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And you want okay {disfmarker} for coming back to one point
Marketing: Two thirty five supposed to finish .
Industrial Designer: y you want to let the user to programming the keys ? Some of them ?
User Interface: Yeah you can let them to do that .
Industrial Designer: And uh isn't that too difficult for the {disfmarker} we want w I don't know if we still want the um R_C_ to be easy to use ,
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: that's the {gap} compromise .
User Interface: N no but the {disfmarker} if you give {disfmarker} it d depends on the easiness like the user how much effort he can put .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: Like for example uh I would like to store in certain way , so if you want to give the full freedom to the user
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: or you want to keep some constraints and let the user use it with that constraint .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Mm . I think you can do it both ways .
User Interface: So it de
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: You can have it so it's easy {gap} they can pick it up and use it straight away without doing anythi without customizing it ,
Industrial Designer: A standard .
Marketing: or if they want to they have the option of using these extra features .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um yes but but I do {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: maybe you can {vocalsound} give a hand to us because I I'm not sure whether that that we can implement that for twelve Euro and fifty cents .
User Interface: {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: I'm sorry to have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Every time I have to come down on this price again
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: to {vocalsound} so this might be a little limiting for your creativity ,
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: but it's it's it's the real {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We have to consider it . S so {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: do we think these ideas {vocalsound} an and my uh sp speech recognition , I mean maybe it's possible for for twelve Euro but then then it will be at cost of other functionality we might implement like the uh uh the the the furry uh {vocalsound} uh case of the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm . Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm yeah like {vocalsound} I would say that for programming uh keys , you said , uh it could be uh easily uh done within the the package of twel twelve Euros ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but for the A_S_R_ system , uh I'm not sure if it's feasible to have this
User Interface: We well we can still look at {disfmarker} we can talk with the coffee unit
Industrial Designer: We {vocalsound}
User Interface: and you can uh check how much how much they {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Exactly yeah i if if it's a low vocabulary it's already implemented ,
User Interface: yeah yeah
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: yeah .
Industrial Designer: and w how much it's cost , maybe with a f cheap chip .
User Interface: Maybe we can come {vocalsound} we we can talk to them , and we can come with that ,
Project Manager: Mm mm .
User Interface: you know .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: And also well you can think of having uh since you have a {disfmarker} you know something {gap} maybe if you added little bit of {gap} display , you might need the {disfmarker} to che keep checking the battery , so you really need a some {vocalsound} kind of indicator ,
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: so it could be a blinking option of L_E_D_ {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: it could actually be used to detect also .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: If it's in a dark room you can basically detect it also .
Marketing: Mm . Hmm .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound} .
Marketing: I like the idea too of being able to use the remote in the dark ,
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: so either having the buttons so you can feel the difference between them or if they if they light up or something .
User Interface: No actually {vocalsound} i if i it is like {disfmarker} you know it tells you um , it can be for two purposes ,
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: like if you have an L_C_D_ display and all those things it's not going to be the standard remote ,
Marketing: Mm . Hmm .
User Interface: which is having uh which need just uh six six volt uh th sorry three volts um of D_C_ .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: It may need more actually , so y you you may need to check your battery usage it {disfmarker} and then you need that , some functionality to indicate the battery limit .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: And then if the battery limit is indicated , if it could be ind indicated through a blinking something
Industrial Designer: It's true .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: and it can change the colour depending on your uh {disfmarker} how much is the battery , well that is good enough to even locate even if you want to .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: You know .
Project Manager: 'Kay good .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I don't know how if if I have time to talk about the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm yes um I would {disfmarker}
User Interface: You you have time some more ? Yep .
Project Manager: Yes yes you can you can still . We have time .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Sure you can you know {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay . So what I'm gonna present here is very uh um yeah basic knowledge about the all the the components that are inside a a R_C_ a remote control , and how is it manufactured h what is the process , just to explain you .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So the method is {disfmarker} ther there is a a set of components in a in a remote control like {gap} , and uh what cost {disfmarker} the the components in themself do not cost a lot but the the way to assemble everything costs obviously , and I will uh show you my preferences uh uh at the end . So there are two uh different types of uh um {disfmarker} Two different ways of using the the components for making a a remote control .
Project Manager: Nice . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Uh the basic way is to use a an integrated circuit and some uh transistors with an {gap} that aims at communicating uh uh the message and to to send the message to the um to the led that will uh transmit to the receiver . And uh yeah the other components and the circuit board {gap} buttons , infrared {vocalsound} , led , etcetera , for the components um . So you {gap} finding , just to say that the chip can detect uh when a key is pressed , and then it translate to the key , to a sequence , something like morse code , as you know , uh with a different sequence for each key ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and uh uh that's , with the components we will use , we will have different uh messages , different sequences , and the chips sends that signal signal to the transistor that amplify to make it stronger um . So electronic parts are assembled onto uh printed boards uh because it's easier to mass produce and assemble . And uh so I think {vocalsound} for our design we want some b uh programmable uh you know V_ V_L_S_I_ or F_P_G_A_ uh high technology ,
User Interface: Yeah mm mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and this is important , and also we'll use uh yeah like in any uh high-tech uh devices a chip of fi fibreglass to {gap} them and connect them .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So my personal design {vocalsound} we need to find a solution what um what is the material of the cover we want to use . If it's plastic
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: or you said that yeah you had some ideas uh like fruit , veg or {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well well
Industrial Designer: I dunno . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: m m maybe m maybe we can give the uh the uh the case a very uh uh normal a v very normal case but , with the changeable covers to fancy it up .
Industrial Designer: Yes . Yes .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So like a normal cheap plastic case which can be covered up in , for instance , a wooden case .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: Mm just have a yeah {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah like they do in with cars I think . Yeah inside the car
Marketing: Just the veneer on it , yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah . So they also emailed me that uh they have {vocalsound} available a bunch of different buttons , a scroll wheels , integrated push buttons s such as a {gap} computer mouse . And uh very cheap L_C_D_s , so liquid crystal displays ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so I'm wondering , I think we might be able to integrate L_C_D_ into our R_C_ . And the final point okay is um we have {disfmarker} yeah there are some uh compromise to to do .
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: So we have to know that the push button requires a simple chip , but the scroll wheel uh and that kind of higher high-tech stuff needs more money um which is a higher price range alright . And the display requires an advanced chip , which in turns is more expensive than the regular chip , but {vocalsound} I think uh with twelve Euros um and if it's uh uh made for mm four million uh items , then I think w we could be able to handle that .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So to {vocalsound} to sum up um we need {vocalsound} yeah so I I just said that the components uh the list of components uh has to be uh yeah listed and um and um assembly is a an important process that has to be taken into account . And uh for the designing of the cove uh uh cover layout then it's better to to to maybe see that with uh the the U_R_ exp U_R_I_ Expert
User Interface: Sorry .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: so that we can {disfmarker} it's really a team-working uh . So
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: I I cannot design something without your agreement ,
Project Manager: No of course .
User Interface: Yeah so
Industrial Designer: right ?
User Interface: of course for example uh I wanted to know like if you want to have a a fo if you want to have the L_C_D_ display over there ,
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: or if you want to store a programmes with a keys {disfmarker} What kind of things you'll need inside your thin inside {disfmarker} W wh what {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah it's kind of um simple {gap} pro progra programmable device , and we have to insert .
User Interface: W what {disfmarker} Okay . Okay .
Industrial Designer: I think we could insert one that could underlie several functions
User Interface: Okay so
Industrial Designer: of {disfmarker}
User Interface: in that case you can even look at the technology what the mobile phone is trying to use with the {gap} card .
Industrial Designer: Exactly yeah , for customizing and yeah .
User Interface: Yeah where they do all the wi with with them actually . How f cost effective it would be to put that car chip into it and do the programmable things .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah good idea .
Project Manager: So I f I think we we should come to some decisions now uh a about this .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um so I understand uh when we want a display we need a expensive chip , but when we want a scrolling wheel w we also need the expensive chip , so can we use same chip , so with one expensive chip we can uh implement several complicated uh or advanced features .
Industrial Designer: Exactly yeah that's a very good idea ,
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: we could have uh one main chip uh that could handle , uh it's called F_P_G_A_ chip , that could handle both uh like scrolling wheels as well as uh L_C_D_
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and
Project Manager: So
Industrial Designer: yeah .
Project Manager: when the more expensive chip you mentioned there is is possible in the in the given budget , uh maybe we should go for for the more expensive chip , so all features uh which you mentioned can be implemented based on the same chip .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: D well {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do you think that's feasible ?
User Interface: Well I don't know if it'll fit into our cost of twelve point five Euro you know .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} You th you think it's possible .
User Interface: Is it possible to fit in to that ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah also thinking , I think both uh {disfmarker} if we had a budget of twenty twenty uh Euros , it will be okay ,
User Interface: Sorry .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: but uh {disfmarker} {gap} .
Marketing: Well maybe we need specific costings then . Actually do maybe two designs and then cost them out and see which one is gonna fit in our budget better .
Project Manager: Mm yes
Industrial Designer: Yeah that's an excellent idea .
Project Manager: wh when you make a {vocalsound} a design ca you can {vocalsound} {disfmarker} next meeting you can give an quite an exact cost price .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah . Yeah
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: That w that would be a very good idea .
Industrial Designer: because right now I don't have {gap} price in in head
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: but for next meeting I'm sure yeah be able to do that .
Project Manager: Good good .
User Interface: Yeah that's uh that's something which I wanted to ask you also , like what will be the each individually the cost of it . For example if f if you want to put wood {disfmarker} I wouldn't suggest for wood
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: uh {gap} 'cause it's {disfmarker} I think it's m much easier to use a plastic or a rubber {gap} rather than wood .
Industrial Designer: Okay . I agree on that . Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: It will be much ch much expensive th though it's the most natural thing , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes but I can I think uh I think we can just use more cheap plastic for a kind of basic edition , and then people can fancy it up with with more expensive materials
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah
Project Manager: which which come with a with another price .
User Interface: it's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah we we can give a preference to them , but it is {gap} but with plastic or the rubber or whatever it is {disfmarker} it's much better with that rather than going for {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do do you agree ?
Marketing: Mm yeah sure .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but i it's a detailed uh yeah yeah uh plastic versus uh wood ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and we need maybe to centre our description on uh the the really the what buttons what uh functionality we want to offer to the user , and maybe with uh {vocalsound} graphs or I don't know uh {disfmarker} {gap}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: User Interface Designer you could maybe uh help us on that .
Project Manager: Ma I I think uh for next meeting we c {vocalsound} you two can present a real design . Uh so drawing it on the board .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yea
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Perfect yeah .
Project Manager: And then we now sh only have to t to decide the general function uh . So um {disfmarker} Let let's say next meeting w {vocalsound} you produce two designs , one one one less advanced and one more advanced and with the cost price .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah sure . Yeah we will uh {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Uh furthermore we go for the for the uh basic plastic case
User Interface: Uh .
Project Manager: which can be later uh fancied up with uh with addit uh additional uh , how do you call them , these like like mobile telephones you can put a cover over it .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: But that that that that can be done later .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: We now can concentrate on the on the basic remote control .
User Interface: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah customized .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Um .
User Interface: Okay {vocalsound} {gap} . We can give them smooth keys , you know . Smooth keys with bigger s uh {disfmarker} So that you know {disfmarker} The the problem most of the time we've seen , the keys is that it's small ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: and every time we have to be very {disfmarker} but if i the {disfmarker} if we if we go to a different ways of designing those keys , then you can merge them together
Marketing: So is there any of these that you're looking at particularly
User Interface: to {disfmarker}
Marketing: or is this just ideas ?
User Interface: Oh you can actually , for example , if you see , they are they are they are quite small over here ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and uh {vocalsound} now you can , for example , as I was {gap} if you make them big , it may change the look of the thing also to the people .
Marketing: Hmm . Mm . Mm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: At the same time , it is m more uh like it would be more interesting for people who are having this R_S_I_ and all {gap} problem .
Marketing: Mm yeah .
Project Manager: Yes yes yes bi big keys is is good thing I think .
User Interface: Uh big keys may better {gap} for them actually and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: You see ?
Industrial Designer: I agree yeah ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and not too m too many keys of course yeah .
Marketing: Mm well
Project Manager: No no .
Marketing: one I've had before , a r r remote control we have at home is one that's actually got a cover on the bottom
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: so the bottom bit is just , covers half the keys most of the time , and then you can slide the cover back to get to the the more advanced keys .
Project Manager: Mm mm mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm w but then you have still have uh when you don't {gap} use it you have such a a an extent of your remote control
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: which you don't use . So maybe it's possible uh , I don't know whether you can can indicate this , that you can elsewhere open your remote control and on the inside are uh buttons you don't use that much .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm . Yeah . Um yeah I've seen that before too . Anoth another like b
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: it flips up and then you've got another layer of buttons underneath .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: Yes . Yeah so it's something like this , the model here
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: s {gap} you can put the keys {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: But I've seen also with keys and buttons on the top of here as well .
Industrial Designer: That's what you mean ?
Project Manager: Yes I I th that's what I mean
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: so I mean something like like a book .
Marketing: I like this one . I like the shape of this one .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Can we have {disfmarker} can we think about maybe having a a non-recta non non-rectangular one , so with not just the straight little box
Industrial Designer: Yeah I like also this one .
Marketing: that's a {disfmarker} maybe curved or something .
User Interface: Yeah , mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , the point is w maybe we need to also to make a decision on how how how big we want to be and how many buttons like n we should {vocalsound} dec decide numbers or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm mm 'kay . Is this for the next meeting though ?
User Interface: We should make a {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think we might be out of time out of time for this meeting .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm .
User Interface: Yeah that {disfmarker} yeah next meeting we should be {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ju just make two designs ,
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah that would depend upon us actually .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah yeah .
Project Manager: and the we we can decide decide between th those designs .
Marketing: Yep .
User Interface: Yeah okay .
Project Manager: I think that would be a good idea . So
Industrial Designer: Perfect .
Project Manager: anyone uh any questions for now ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} No no . I don't have .
Marketing: No . So is this {disfmarker} is there anything else I need to do from a marketing point of view for the next meeting ?
Project Manager: Um yes I come to that uh uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Maybe it would be interesting if you could look um for the cost inventories of other devices , if you're using speech recognition or something like that .
Project Manager: Yes well m maybe uh , I don't know whether that's possible ,
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: maybe you can start evaluating uh their work somehow .
Marketing: Okay well is this {vocalsound} me designing a way to evaluate it so {disfmarker} Thinking about how to set up test groups and things ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I don't know whether that's possible uh in the given time
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: but a as far as possible .
Marketing: Okay . Yep .
Project Manager: So uh you two will be together w working on a o on two prototypes
Industrial Designer: Exactly .
User Interface: Mm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: and further instructions will be uh will be sent to you by uh by email .
Industrial Designer: Two or three prototypes ?
User Interface: Two .
Project Manager: Two .
User Interface: One for like cost and the one with like higher-end
Industrial Designer: Two ?
Project Manager: I {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm {gap} and then {disfmarker}
User Interface: so that then we can be easily comparing them
Industrial Designer: Yeah
Project Manager: Hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: or you know find a compromise between both of them ,
Industrial Designer: and find maybe a compromise .
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: Yes okay .
User Interface: yeah that's how it is .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Perfect yeah .
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: Okay let's call this to an end .
Marketing: Mm 'kay .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Thanks guys .
Industrial Designer: Thanks .
User Interface: So we are done for now . {gap} . | |
doc_150 | Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I'm proud of it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . This is our final meeting , the detailed design meeting . And again I'll take minutes . The {disfmarker} what we have to get through in this meeting is firstly the prototype presentation from you two , so you can show us what you've been working on so diligently .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: It does look very cool .
Project Manager: Um then
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} then Cat's going to present the evaluation criteria that we're going to be evaluating this against .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Then I need to say some st a few things about finance , 'cause we have to check that it's within the finance criteria . Um and then we'll be making sure that our product fits both the evaluation criteria from Cat and the financial limits . Um and then we uh will have a brief evaluation of the whole process of production and design that we've been through . So we've got forty minutes . S
Marketing: And then do we get to make a remote control ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} 'Cause we missed out .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: So
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: it's now {disfmarker} I guess that we're supposed to start at fifteen thirty five , so we've got until four fifteen .
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh . How how much do we have , forty minutes ?
Project Manager: Is that right ?
User Interface: Yeah , about four fifteen , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: until about four fifteen . So yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay , so .
Project Manager: Go for it . Do you want {disfmarker}
User Interface: So , you said um {disfmarker} are are we starting with the the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Presentation .
User Interface: so will you maybe start with like the mm the shape and things and and then I will explain the the user interface th uh things , like the buttons and the scrolling things and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Okay . So um basically going with our trend of vegetables and {vocalsound} {disfmarker} we selected the colour and approximate shape of banana .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} You think bananas are a safe thing to use ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's a bit um phallic .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well , but it's it's just an a approximation . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Dual use , perfect .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Dual use , perfect .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh , {vocalsound} {gap} your remote control ? Oh that's just bad . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Does it vibrate when you press the buttons ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um so basically it's the it's the flip open thing again .
Project Manager: Sorry , sorry .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So now we we have the {disfmarker} okay ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so Ma Maarika will explain you the user interface there . And it flips open on the side , so it opens like that . And we have the user interface o in here
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Wow .
Industrial Designer: and uh {vocalsound} the the L_C_D_ and and the scroll are inside . Um well , everything else is probably user interface , so . Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: And it's {disfmarker} the whole thing's made of rubber , is that {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh yeah . Yeah , it has , yeah .
User Interface: Rubber .
Marketing: Is it to scale , or do you think you can make it a bit smaller ?
User Interface: Yeah , {gap} . Um it could be made a bit smaller , and and of course it would be {gap} and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} yeah , but um one thing we actually kind of um forgot while designing , that one side was supposed to be rounder ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah ,
User Interface: so we said the back side round , yeah .
Industrial Designer: well , but i since it's made of rubber anyway . I I think it's it's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: It l does look like the {gap} curvy
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: and then the whole shape's curvy , so I would say that this curvy does look quite like a vegetable .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Hmm .
User Interface: Yeah . And it's spongy as well . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I wasn't very keen on that , but yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So {vocalsound} so uh the user interface as as we discussed last time uh mm on on the {vocalsound} on the cover we just have the very basic things .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Huh . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So we have that n uh channels here starting from um uh one two three {disfmarker} there would be numbers in in the {disfmarker} on the actual one .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: So it's four , up to four , up to seven , up to nine and zero , z zero here .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Six seven eight nine . I like that .
User Interface: Yeah . And then , well this is on off button . It's it's quite standard mm place for it and and also the colour is quite often red , so it's it's kind of user friendly .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: And then these ones would be for flipping the channels back and {disfmarker} like the previous one and the next one .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
User Interface: And and we would also have a l little um thing saying here , previous and ne prevon prevon next .
Marketing: So where's the volume ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: The volume is is scrolling .
Industrial Designer: It's on the side .
User Interface: On the side ,
Marketing: Ah , you did get that in then ,
User Interface: this one . Yeah you just do it like this .
Marketing: mm-hmm .
User Interface: And and and it's it's on the back is mm cover or back lid , because if you flip it open , you can still do the scrolling here .
Marketing: Oh okay , {gap} .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: See ? So the volume is {vocalsound} you just scroll , but then once you flip it open , {vocalsound} okay , there there you have the screen
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: and and you have the mm {vocalsound} spinning wheel with options to choose .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: You can move back and forth and then if you need to m choose something on the screen , you just push the cen mm the middle button .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Cool . Oh , the thing we forgot was like a mute button .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh no , we we'd not put {gap} {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: A mute button .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so on on the cover we have the the bare essentials .
User Interface: Well , {gap} we'll have this on the screen , on the display .
Project Manager: Y or you could have it {disfmarker} so you {disfmarker} on the wheel if you {disfmarker}
Marketing: On the wheel , like if you hold the wheel down then it will mute .
Industrial Designer: Uh on the L_C_D_ we r you know , the main menu will have various options .
User Interface: Well , but the but the mute {disfmarker} yeah , the scrolling is kind of you have to scroll all the way to make it mute , right ?
Project Manager: But if you hold it in ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah , but it's a scroll and click , isn't it ?
Project Manager: if it's a scroll and click so you hold it in ?
Marketing: Okay , cool .
User Interface: Okay , yeah , okay .
Marketing: So that {gap} that solves the whole mute issue .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} And okay , so i so the the voice recognition is also just part of it .
Project Manager: {gap} no .
User Interface: You can't really see it in the interface .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , it's hidden in there somewhere .
User Interface: Yeah . And we do have the logo on it as well .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm , very good .
User Interface: So I think it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} with the the black and yellow you're even in the right colours .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Cool .
User Interface: Yeah , I think um we could do l the logo in grey , as it is on the website .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We ran out of resources here , so . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: In the actual one .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You can have a look . {vocalsound}
User Interface: So if you have questions .
Project Manager: Very good , let's have a look .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Test it out . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh it's a sort of intermediate colour , I guess .
Marketing: Yeah , oh , we hold the remote .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh , but it it does feel all cold and slimy .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I hate Play-Do , it's just minging .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But yeah , uh that's cool , cool .
Project Manager: Very good .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay , so maybe if we go on to evaluation cri criteria
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: and then we'll there {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , see the budget .
Project Manager: I suspect we're gonna have a couple of minor finance issues , but um we'll se I'm sure we can get around them somehow .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We'll just send all of our manufacturing to some nice poor country
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and cut some of the prices that way .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Wales . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Wales , for example . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm . Cool , okay . Right , okay . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Fabulous ,
Project Manager: Marketing Expert .
Marketing: yeah . Okay , cool . So what we're gonna do is prefer {disfmarker} prepare the evaluation of the new design . {vocalsound} Um so we're gonna be using a seven point scale ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: so one is , you know , yes , it totally meets with that requirement and seven is , no , it really doesn't , we need to go back and start again . Um , you know . Basically , what I did was I went through all the like user requirements and things that we've done and we've worked on and like made a list of them . Um you know , so that we can evaluate each one and like {disfmarker} so it was about going back to the start and saying oh yeah , we did manage to do that , or oh no , we really forgot about that .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Cool , so these are what they are . Oh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So for each of these we need to give it a one to seven . Is that right ?
Marketing: Yes , I did have A_ , B_ , C_ , and D_ down here , but it seems to have turned into like just bullet points .
Project Manager: Mm dots , never mind .
Marketing: Okay . But if you can imagine that they say A_ , B_ , C_ , and D_ , then that would be really good .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I guess we'll give it maximum points in everything . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , the yeah , it's definitely attractive . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , I agree .
User Interface: Oh , the locatable thing we actually forgot .
Marketing: Well , I thought we'd um kinda said that you'd have a little thing to stick on the T_V_ ?
Project Manager: Yeah , just prepare one now .
User Interface: Yeah . Shall I just prepare it now ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: It will be red , too .
Marketing: Cool . Okay . So , be attractive to look at . That's this one . What do you all say ?
Industrial Designer: So ?
Project Manager: I reckon it {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} S seven was th the maximum , yeah ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: I I go for seven .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yes .
Marketing: Oh {vocalsound} we're all so proud of the {gap} .
Project Manager: Seven , yeah , it's terribly sexy . Yeah .
Marketing: Okay , so that'll be a seven for A_ .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Could {disfmarker} oh no , you can't whilst that's up there . Okay um uh what I've done on the next page is I've set it up so we just put the marks in .
Project Manager: Ah , okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Excellent . Except we can't {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But we can we can {disfmarker}
Marketing: But that's alright .
Project Manager: uh we can if we {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I can I can take note uh uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: If you take a note of them , and then I'll put them in in a minute .
Project Manager: then yeah , I'll take a note , it's fine .
Marketing: Okay , so {vocalsound} we're all agreeing on seven for A_ ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Cool , okay . Does it match the operating behaviour of the user ?
Industrial Designer: Um the the only thing that we were considering was that uh this thing is kind of more for right-handed people than for left-handed people ,
Project Manager: I think it does .
User Interface: I would think yes , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . I mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so if you're left-handed you're kind of left uh scrolling with your finger .
User Interface: Yeah ,
Project Manager: Alright .
User Interface: so y so we we might do we might want to do like a uh another m {vocalsound} model another another version , which is like exactly the mirror image of this one .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: But that's gonna be a problem ,
Industrial Designer: But then {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: 'cause you don't always have all left-handers or all right-handers in a family .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So bu it's it's not a huge problem ,
Marketing: I th I think it's not {vocalsound} it's not like it's a pen .
Industrial Designer: because i i it is operatable .
User Interface: But then then I think left-handed people are already used to discrimination anyway ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: so they just {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , but I mean because it's not like it's a pen , you know , left-handed people can't normally write right-handed ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: but they can normally do most things right-handed ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: so I would say it's not such a big issue .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah , because I mean anyway , right-handed people would be able to scroll with it ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: I mean you can you can use your finger to to scroll rather than your thumb .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: so i if the majority are right-handed , it's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: So I mean that does kind of negate the whole R_S_I_ issue .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: So maybe we need to put {disfmarker} that needs a little bit of investigation , maybe give it a five , I would say ?
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: What do you what do you all think ?
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Six .
User Interface: Or maybe six , because it's just one one i one among the issues ,
Project Manager: Yeah , I think I think for um {disfmarker}
User Interface: I mean . Yeah .
Project Manager: I mean most people are right-handed , so in {vocalsound} in terms of our greatest target group , I think it's pretty good , but we might want to flag it for management , they want {disfmarker} might want to um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: One more thing is that i
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: It might be a little clumsy when when it opens up , right ,
Project Manager: They {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so it opens on the side . So {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: No , yeah , but mm but we have it {vocalsound} nicely {vocalsound} with the hinges here {gap} yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah yeah yeah , I mean {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: So it won't be a problem ,
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So you guys can decide wh whether {disfmarker}
User Interface: it will be {disfmarker} and it will be {disfmarker} it won't be heavy .
Industrial Designer: Oops .
Marketing: I th I think the alternative is flipping from the top .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but we {disfmarker} which makes it kind of really big , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah well yeah ,
Project Manager: The length is gonna be difficu
User Interface: but it's it's a bit long . It's a little bit long .
Marketing: Yeah um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , I mean it can be opened like this of course and yeah .
Marketing: But you were thinking about making it smaller , yeah ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh this this kind of uh makes it more {gap}
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Because {disfmarker}
User Interface: S uh slightly smaller .
Industrial Designer: and two , it might interfere with the I_R_ channel .
Marketing: So you have to keep that side flat .
User Interface: Yeah , but if we flip it open only as much as that .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: So it works like a mobile phone flipping , but y you know , as long as that side's flat , than that will work .
Industrial Designer: Right . Okay .
Marketing: Okay . Um {vocalsound} okay , so C_ . Are are we admitting defeat on C_ or are we saying we're gonna stick a locator on the T_V_ ?
Industrial Designer: No , we have a locator .
Project Manager: No , we're gonna put it like {disfmarker} we've got th there's the locator dot .
Marketing: There's a locator . Cool , so that means you need a {disfmarker} that does mean you need a little speaker on it though ,
User Interface: Mm that you stick on T_V_ .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: doesn't it ? To make it beep .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Or a buzzer .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah well w but l but the speak sample speaker is included , so it it has some capacity to mm to do some {disfmarker} to make some sounds , so {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So that's two , so that's seven , yeah . It's locatable ?
User Interface: Yep .
Marketing: Fabulous . D_ .
Industrial Designer: Intuitive , completely intuitive . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . If {vocalsound} uh uh if this means intuitive , if it means the way people kind of are used to finding things
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: and it's {disfmarker} I th I think it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I'd say six , 'cause the {disfmarker} I mean the the standard layout for numbers is three three three and one , rather than the way you've got it . I really like the way you have it ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: but it's not the immediate thing that you're used to .
Industrial Designer: Intuitive .
Marketing: Yeah , and I mean d
Industrial Designer: And uh even the scroll , it's a it's a new technology
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so m m might be a little more difficult for people to get used to in the beginni
Project Manager: Might be {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so it is kind of not very intuitive but uh it's a good technology , I mean once they get used to it .
Project Manager: But it {disfmarker} and it's something that they will be experiencing in a lot of different places soon .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: So , should we maybe say f a five
Industrial Designer: So l
Marketing: and say it is intuitive ,
Project Manager: Five ?
Marketing: but it's different , so , do you know , I mean it's obvious how to use it ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: but you might have to think about it first . So we give that one a five , you think ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , okay . I'm gonna give a seven in everything , so . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: I'm happy with five ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I'm glad you're accepting this . It has taken a little while , hasn't it ? Um intuitive but {disfmarker} Sorry , it's really hard to write on those .
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I just went a bit mad , didn't I ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um okay , cool , E_ , okay . Um I would guess this comes back from this whole B_ thing links in here , so possibly for left-handed . Investigate .
Project Manager: Yep . But otherwise it's superb .
Marketing: So , should we give it a six ?
Project Manager: Six .
Marketing: Six ?
User Interface: Um uh the ergonom ergonomic design {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: well mm I mean I d uh I dunno , I mean the the repetitive stress things ,
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
User Interface: but then who would be really pushing the buttons so much on the on the remote control anyway ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , unless you are a all the time sitting .
User Interface: yeah ? See .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , so it's kinda {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I I think it is ergonomic .
Marketing: I used to send fifty texts a day , you know ,
Project Manager: Well we've banned them from {disfmarker}
Marketing: and I never got repetitive strain injury from that ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah .
Marketing: so I find it quite hard to believe to be honest .
Industrial Designer: And moreover it it has um {vocalsound} L_C_D_ and everything ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so that uh you know uh we minimise the pressing of the buttons anyway .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , it's varied .
Marketing: Okay , so we give that a six ,
Project Manager: Yeah . Six ?
Marketing: yeah . Okay , F_ .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker} it does have {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Absolutely .
Project Manager: Voice control have seven .
Marketing: Hang on , how come it's showing up with the things there but it only had bullet points there ? That's just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ah , that's the second one . So you must have changed it on this one where it's got score , but not on the previous slide .
Marketing: Oh okay , cool . Um {vocalsound} right , so {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: So it has voice control .
Marketing: Yes , so that's a seven then .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: Um , cool .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: G_ technologically innovative .
Industrial Designer: Anyway it ha yeah ,
User Interface: Technologi {gap} well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: it's the most sophisticated remote that I ever seen . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} But in terms of the actual technology , none of it is actually new .
User Interface: Yeah . Well mm we have we have the sample speaker as well , which is {disfmarker} yeah , it's kind of new .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , but I mean you don't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: All of the components have been used in other things before .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but they've been brought together in a remote .
User Interface: But at the same time they are all they are all relatively new .
Marketing: They're never been used i they've never been using remote remote control before I don't think .
Project Manager: But do {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: {gap} .
Project Manager: What do you reckon , five , six ?
Marketing: Yeah , what do you all think ?
User Interface: Six .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Six ?
User Interface: I mean how how far can you go with a remote control , really ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well , that's it , I mean {disfmarker}
User Interface: It still has to do what i what it has to do .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , but I mean everything has been used in space before it gets to anyone else really , hasn't it ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So , I don't think many peop
Project Manager: Space remote .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's it , they can take it with them .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Put fashion in electronics .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Absolutely . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , isn't it fashionable ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: The carrot banana remote . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , sure .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's the maximum fashion .
Marketing: So , we give it seven , and we write {disfmarker}
User Interface: Fruit fruit and vegetables are fashionable these days , so .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: There we go .
Industrial Designer: I think that's a {gap} .
User Interface: So I think we've done very well , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Cool .
Project Manager: Very good .
User Interface: {vocalsound} What's the assessment ?
Marketing: So , we need the average here , so we got {disfmarker}
User Interface: The average is about six and something .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , one .
User Interface: A little bit over six .
Marketing: Seven {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} There are how many sixes ?
Project Manager: Or a seven {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: One , two , three .
Marketing: So we've got four sevens ,
User Interface: No , wait , a little bit under six .
Marketing: so that's twenty eight ,
Industrial Designer: Three .
User Interface: No , wait .
Marketing: three sixes ,
Industrial Designer: And one five .
Marketing: eighteen .
User Interface: Oh , three sixes , okay , yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fifty one , one , two , three , four , five , six , seven , eight .
Industrial Designer: Okay , twenty eight , thirty eight , fo forty six . Forty six and five , fifty one .
Project Manager: Six point point {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Fifty one divided by {disfmarker}
User Interface: Six point something , yeah .
Marketing: Two three four {disfmarker} Seven eight .
Project Manager: about six point five .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Six point five , yeah .
Project Manager: Close enough .
Marketing: Okay , that's pretty good , I think . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Now wait until we {vocalsound} get to finance and then we'll see if we can afford it .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's all you've got at the moment , or did you have anything more ?
Marketing: Um no , that's it ,
Project Manager: That's it ?
Marketing: yeah .
Project Manager: Alright . So , finance . And we'll see if we can unscrew this first .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Cool , there we go .
Project Manager: Sorry , this is {disfmarker} I'm just um {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap} . There we go and there are the marks .
Project Manager: Beautiful .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Not anymore .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Computer no signal ?
Industrial Designer: Mm I guess it'll have to wait for a bit .
Project Manager: Adjusting . There we go . Okay , so we've looked at the prototype presentation and the evaluation criteria . And now we have to calculate the production costs . So I've got an Excel spreadsheet to help us do that . Can you read that ? Almost .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: More or less . Um I started filling it in , but of course these are provisional , so we have to go down . No hand dynamo , right ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: One simple battery .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: No kinetic energy , no solar . The chip , we're going for an advanced chip on print .
Industrial Designer: Advanced , yeah .
Project Manager: We also said the sample sensor and sample speaker .
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: Um single-curved surface , so that we can fold it .
User Interface: Yeah , yes .
Project Manager: Case material we said rubber .
User Interface: Rubber .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: I don't know what special colour means .
Industrial Designer: Mm anything uh I think which is not more {gap} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I think something coloured , yeah , probably . So I think this is probably special co no ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: It could be {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , but rubber comes coloured , doesn't it ? You know .
Project Manager: Rub rubber comes coloured ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: it's {disfmarker} I would {disfmarker} {vocalsound} maybe it's like if you want titanium coloured or wood coloured , it's different .
User Interface: Or maybe maybe if you want some kind of pattern thing on it ,
Project Manager: Yeah , let's leave it as zero , 'cause it's easy . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} yeah yeah , okay .
Marketing: Yeah ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: you might end up having to take off the sample sensor .
Project Manager: We we're definitely going to have to {disfmarker}
User Interface: We have pushbuttons ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: so we've got pushbutton , and then we've
User Interface: scro we have scroll wheel as well .
Project Manager: Scroll wheel with pushbutton we had , no ?
Industrial Designer: No uh we we have uh yeah .
User Interface: S yeah , yeah , we had , for muting , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: And we have L_C_ display
Project Manager: And button supplements .
User Interface: and {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm no .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap} . No .
Industrial Designer: We don't have {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No . No ?
Industrial Designer: we're not using any of that .
User Interface: Yeah , but what do we ha we have L_C_ display , but but the wh but the s spinning wheel {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But the the spinning wheel's not there . I have {disfmarker} think {disfmarker} maybe it's integrated with the L_C_ display ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: We've got more than one pushbutton though ,
User Interface: Okay , let's {gap} yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: haven't we ?
Project Manager: I think the pushbutton {disfmarker} oh .
Marketing: 'Cause then you have {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I don't know if that's one {disfmarker}
Marketing: That means you can only have twenty five push buttons in total doesn't it ? Not counting anything , we'd still be in budget .
Project Manager: Yeah . That seems unlikely .
Industrial Designer: Huh ?
Project Manager: Push what uh
Industrial Designer: Wh wh what is the limit ? Uh .
Marketing: Twelve point five .
Project Manager: whether whether pushbutton means that p count by button or do we {disfmarker}
User Interface: We have to count all of them , or {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm I don't think so , no .
Project Manager: I don't think that makes sense .
Marketing: No .
Industrial Designer: No it says what what is the kind of interface ,
Marketing: Well it doesn't , but it uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: if it is pushbutton then you got a zero point five , it's a scroll wheel {disfmarker} so we we've put it's pushbutton and scroll wheel and L_C_D_ display ,
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: And L_C_ display .
Industrial Designer: so that's that's the three kind of interfaces that we have .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah . So , as we can see , that's way too expensive down here .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Wh wh what's our criteria ?
Marketing: This sample sensor {gap} .
Project Manager: Our budget's twelve point five .
Industrial Designer: Uh okay .
Marketing: Yeah , the sample sensor will have to go , 'cause that's the most expensive thing on there .
Project Manager: Yeah , so that has implications though for the {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Uh it does not have for voice recognition , but it does have for the feedback speaker . {gap} when you say {disfmarker} when you press one it says one or it says hello .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: For the locator .
Marketing: But that's a bit of a gimmick anyway really , isn't it ?
Industrial Designer: Mm {vocalsound} and the locator also goes away .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: We can afford to get rid of it .
User Interface: But it was very no innovative
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So that means no locator , does it ?
User Interface: {gap} innovativeness {gap} . Well um {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: I mean does {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What else does it need ?
User Interface: Well the speaker uh the sample speaker is is expensive , but we could just have some some very very easy device that just beeps .
Project Manager: Yeah , 'cause the sample speaker was , I think , more complicated then just a beeping thing .
User Interface: This would be {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah yeah {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: there you record your samples your speech samples and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , okay , so we {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: A also i in the case I'm not sure that you will evaluate this as a curved surface , because it's just rubber , so it's probably a flat surface rubber . Uh I mean uh um {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Marketing: Okay , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Right , so we need one fifty off .
Marketing: See , I was gonna say the scroll wheel pushbutton thing , 'cause {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Take it down to just a scroll wheel . {vocalsound} We could do {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So tha that {vocalsound} mean that we cannot press {disfmarker} how do we how do we make a selection in uh in the L_C_D_ ?
User Interface: Yeah , then then we would be in the b budget .
Industrial Designer: If {vocalsound} in the L_C_D_ we can scroll , right ? But how do we make a selection if we d cannot push the button .
User Interface: Yeah b no no , you can push this one , but we don't have a pushbutton uh we ca we don't have this muting mechanism for this scrolling thing .
Marketing: But that's {disfmarker} well you would just have to to spin it down {gap} .
Project Manager: Yeah . You can have to scroll it straight r roll it straight down for for mute .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: No w w w but ha
Marketing: So that's point three .
Industrial Designer: it's it's the scroll wheel and I thought we were referring to this as a scroll spinning wheel and pushbutton thing .
User Interface: But I mean {vocalsound} we can put an additional mute button on the top as well .
Marketing: Yeah ,
User Interface: If you {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean that wouldn't actually cost any more . That's the spin wheel though , isn't it ? Didn't that come with the L_C_ {disfmarker}
Project Manager: That's with the L_C_
Industrial Designer: That comes with the L_C_D_ ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: We decided , 'cause it's not on our list .
Industrial Designer: Oh so so the the this is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: The scroll wheel is on the side .
Industrial Designer: {gap} . So {vocalsound} we're adding costs for {gap} right , okay uh I mean I think this is good .
Marketing: S so we're point three over .
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We're point three over at the moment .
Marketing: Unless we just take off the scroll wheel altogether
Project Manager: It's nothing n
Marketing: and just have pushbuttons for the volume . Could b still put them on the side . But yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah ,
Marketing: I mean the scroll wheel's pretty cool , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I have {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Instead of scrolling here we have two buttons here , up {disfmarker} for up and down .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: On the side .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm uh it sounds good actually , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay , yeah .
Project Manager: Rather than having three different things that people have to do .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: There we go . Oh look , we're way under budget and we'll make huge profits and we'll all get bonuses .
Marketing: Yeah , well we could admit to the single curve {gap} , couldn't we ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Or or that we have to have some sort of special colour .
Marketing: Yeah , but {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So that's alright . We we'll leave it at that {gap}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: and then I'll take {disfmarker} I can send it back to management and say we weren't quite sure about the colour , if that costs extra then we've still got some space for it ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We have , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Excellent . Alright . So did we lose um on our evaluation criteria , as a result of doing that ?
Marketing: No .
Industrial Designer: Not really , no .
Marketing: No , I don't think so .
Industrial Designer: Because we keep all the features , we keep voice recognition , we keep L_C_D_ display .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: We {disfmarker} instead of having scrolling we we just push the buttons .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: We just got rid of a gimmick that was never {gap} anyway ,
Industrial Designer: Um yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: and the scroll wheel is I mean essentially the two buttons that was {disfmarker} it's not a great difference I don't think .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But we lose the locator .
Project Manager: Alright then .
Marketing: Really ?
Project Manager: We're gonna have a beep .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well {gap} we're going to have a beeping thing .
Industrial Designer: So instead of speaker , {gap} .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: But yeah , it's it's not like sample speaker , but it will just beep , so we still have the locate .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Cool . That's not a very exciting colour . I think you should make it more vegetable-like . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Tha
User Interface: Which colour , the the colour of the phone or the colour of the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh the the beeper thing .
Project Manager: {gap} .
Marketing: It {disfmarker}
User Interface: But it can be yellow as well . It can come in the same colour as the the case .
Project Manager: 'Cause we we won't have run out of our pot of Play-Doh {gap} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , I think Jen wants it to vibrate .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , I know I know , my pen vibrates .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: You know , your pen vibrates ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But only for a very short time . Um okay . So looks like we've designed a banana .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well done , team . {vocalsound} Um we need {disfmarker} we've just got about ten minutes or so left of the meeting , so it would be good if we could just have a little talk about the project itself and how it went , um so that we can feed back to the management for next time they're designing a product .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I think it mm {disfmarker}
Marketing: Cool .
Project Manager: Feedback ? Ideas ?
User Interface: Yeah mm , as far as creativity is concerned , yeah I think there was there was room for creativity . The only the only problem being that at the end we had to cut some things down because of the the budget we had .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I think uh n one thing that was lacking uh was that we did not know what the various things cost to begin with .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um we kap kept a adding things randomly .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So , had we known {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: If we'd had that sheet at the beginning {gap} should've been like , okay , so we can have that lot , let's just throw it together and do what we can .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , that or not , yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . So {vocalsound} d all the random decisions at the end could have been prevented .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But in terms of the process of um going and working individually and then coming back to a meeting , that that worked in terms of .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , mm .
Marketing: I think 'cause the meetings were so regular , you know . It wasn't like we were alone for very long ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: so you didn't {vocalsound} st go off and think , wouldn't it be great to have a vibrating {vocalsound} remote control {vocalsound} shaped like a banana ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Banana . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and then , you know , come back three days later and Jen's going look , look , it vibrates and it looks like a banana .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um yeah , so yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , the m the means were very very good , the means we used .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm , the whiteboard digital pens .
User Interface: And the pens . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh I like the pens .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We like the pens . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I want one . That would just be so cool , to d do all your notes and s
Project Manager: Yeah , you could take it to lectures and just write stuff down
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah yeah ,
Project Manager: and have it printed out when you got back to the office .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: that's it's it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: They great ?
Industrial Designer: I wonder what one of these costs . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do you think they'd notice if one went ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} I don't think you should say that was the recording .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh okay .
Marketing: Okay , cover up the microphone . Alright , let's take it . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yep . Shh . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: But that worked well having having a whiteboard that we could draw on as well as having the PowerPoint , 'cause the {disfmarker} I find that the problem with PowerPoint often is that it's so static and you can't change it once you're in there ,
Marketing: It is a bit limiting , isn't it ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: yep .
User Interface: Yeah , and and and this time also the time limits but actually preparing the {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . The thing flew in ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: you didn't have the whole whooshing thing , 'cause there wasn't time for that , so yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . That's alright , that always irritates me anyway , yeah .
Marketing: Not that you can do that on the board , either . We could make some little {disfmarker}
User Interface: But yeah , but I mean already just just preparing the slides before before the meeting , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , totally , I mean that was fairly tight anyway , I mean especially with that last-minute alteration .
Project Manager: Mm . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} back it , {vocalsound} this is {disfmarker} just had to be changed
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: . And {disfmarker} yeah , so {disfmarker} cool .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Are we supposed to say nice things about Jen now ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And presumably you don't {disfmarker} you can say nasty things as well .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I have no stake in it .
User Interface: I was I was satisfied with with the leadership , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , definitely .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: You weren't like a a dictating leader , so that was always good .
Project Manager: You have to say that , 'cause I'm taking the notes .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'll leave the room and you can have another go .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: I know you've got the pen , you might attack me with it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Better than that than the banana .
User Interface: And then the teamwork I think I think it worked quite quite nicely , yeah .
Project Manager: I think it worked quite well .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Did anyone feel that they were getting sort of covered up and not being able to say their bit ?
User Interface: To express them mm mm
Industrial Designer: Mm . I guess it was a fairly small group ,
User Interface: no .
Industrial Designer: so all of us got to express our opinions , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {gap} . New ideas found . Not quite sure what about .
User Interface: Well it's it's it's pretty new ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: pretty novel solution for a for a remote control really , all this flipping open thing and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: I don't know , I don't go shopping for remote controls that often , maybe somebody's already though of it .
User Interface: Yeah , neither neither do I ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but I've never seen anything and and none of my examples were was was like this , actually , so .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah . I'll be looking out next time I need to write an essay .
Project Manager: Yeah , that's right . {vocalsound}
Marketing: That looks boring , I'll see if anyone's made a {gap} remote control .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah maybe w maybe we could have a patent on this one .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Patent patent patent . Mm .
Marketing: I think we'd like to think the ideas were new ,
Project Manager: Banana remote .
Marketing: but we've got no way of finding out . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Or you can always go to Google and type in banana remote control .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That vibrates {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Flip . Vibrate
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , but that would just come up with like other things really wouldn't it .
Project Manager: . And uh {disfmarker} yeah . {vocalsound} Nothing that you really want . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: True . Yeah . {vocalsound} Okay . So , costs are within budget ,
Marketing: Yes .
User Interface: Yes . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: well within budget , including a little {disfmarker} what have we got ? One Euro left over for bits that we didn't foresee . Um we've evaluated the project .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: And it's fabulous .
Project Manager: You've got the scores . Can you put that in the project documents file ?
Marketing: It's in the project documents {gap} .
Project Manager: It's in there already . And the process wheel didn't really have any major problems with . Were there any {disfmarker} was there anything that you found difficult , or anything that didn't go as smoothly as you'd hope ?
User Interface: And my main difficulty was the the time pressure .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Otherwise it's it's all fine .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah , sometimes it's like a little bit rushed .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I thought that was good though , because if you're given too much time then you got nothing to do with your time and um {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Although we could have made the R_s better had we had five more minute . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay then . Um I think we're still well within our time .
Marketing: Yeah , we've got like five minutes left .
Project Manager: We've got about five minutes left , but if we've finished , then we've finished . We're just too too efficient
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We certainly are ,
Project Manager: and you should never drag a meeting on just because you have extra time .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: mm . Yeah .
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: So I would say that's the end of that meeting .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Thank you , team .
User Interface: Yeah , it was a pleasure working with you .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , same here . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It was very productive day and {disfmarker}
Marketing: We could draw animals on the board again .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm uh no . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm uh no . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I don't think so . {vocalsound}
User Interface: You can make some animals .
Marketing: I don't like Play-Doh , no .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh , you don't like anim
Marketing: It's just minging . It smells so bad .
User Interface: {vocalsound} It doesn't ?
Marketing: It does .
User Interface: Smells quite nice . Smells very sweet .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Right , so we have to complete the final questionnaire and meeting summary when they send it .
Industrial Designer: Was there a questionnaire already sent ?
Project Manager: I don't know if it's already sent or not .
Marketing: No , it hasn't been .
Project Manager: Um presumably I have to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Do we have to go back into the other room or can we stay in here now ?
Project Manager: I don't see why you can't stay here , really .
Marketing: Okay , so the other way . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Did I save this one ? Production costs .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I made your animal for you .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It was supposed to be pink . {vocalsound} But it was blue on the board .
User Interface: Yeah , that's the one {disfmarker} | |
doc_151 | Project Manager: So
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I hope you're ready for this uh functional design meeting .
Marketing: Of course . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um so I will take the minutes you mm you three are going to do presentation . Um uh we want to know {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} at the end to know the new project's requirement so we need uh to know the the user uh needs that we want to fulfil to fulfil the {disfmarker} from the technical part we want to know how it going to work and um third part {vocalsound} uh I don't remember {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: which is not very good . Ah of course , how to to design this uh this {disfmarker}
Marketing: Nice stuff {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} yeah . So um let's go for the three presentations , so first um Marketing Expert .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Who starts ? {vocalsound} Oh . Ha . okay .
Project Manager: So wait a minute . Mm .
Marketing: So I dunno if I can do that like this ? Yeah ? So it's being modified . Do you want {disfmarker} yeah , open . Read only . I hope I saved it . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So , um
User Interface: Sammy Benjo . I know this name uh .
Marketing: yeah , this is my name . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sounds uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} We met before .
Marketing: So as you know , you {disfmarker} I think you already know me , Sammy Benjo . I am the expert in marketing and I want to tell you about what people uh s want and uh like and dislike in remote controls , and I hope this is going to help you to to design it correctly . So next please . Uh-oh . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm {vocalsound} uh .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it is put F_ five {gap} .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Hmm .
Industrial Designer: The full page presentation , yep .
Marketing: Yeah maybe in the full page
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: F_ F_ five .
Marketing: because i I spent lots of time doing this presentation , so .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yep .
Project Manager: F_ five .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Uh-huh hmm okay .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm .
Marketing: So basically uh what I suggest is that uh instead of deciding ourself what what could be and what should be a good uh remote control , let's ask people who are users of remote controls how they feel about w the current remote controls , what they like , what they don't like and um and what they do with them by the way {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: because they are supposed to be useful . {vocalsound} Don't forget about that . So we've we've conducted a a survey on on the use of uh remote controls and I'd like to show you some of the results we found on this survey . And next please . Yeah , so basically what we found was that uh there are several things that the user don't like in remote controls . First of all , they find it very ugly . {vocalsound} Current remote controls as you know they're the same as this one uh they're not nice colour , not nice shape , I mean they're all the same , and they're not l good looking . Um what is interesting is that in fact it seems that they were {disfmarker} people are ready to pay for nice and look {disfmarker} and fancy looking uh remote control , so I think we should probably spend lots of time in {disfmarker} and effort in that um . And the other thing is that uh the the current remote controls are not so easy to use and it it {disfmarker} the the current uh facilities that they offer do not match what people really want to use their remote controls . For instance uh we see that uh they zap very often so I think this is a very uh important uh functionality that it should be easy for them to to zap uh in one way or another . And most of the buttons uh on uh current remote controls are not used , so I think we should design something where some of the buttons which are those that are used should be easier to see and use than others that only a couple of people are using . Um next please . {vocalsound} Now {vocalsound} people are very frustrated w with their {vocalsound} remote controls
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: and they for instance uh they don't even find it {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: it's {vocalsound} it's often lost somewhere in the in the {disfmarker} in your home and nobody knows where it is .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Agree .
Marketing: Maybe if we have something where we could {vocalsound} ask the remote control please , where are you ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Like uh something to to {disfmarker} like t I think phones . Some of the phones have some of this kind of s functionality . Uh of course phone you can always phone your phone
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but {vocalsound} you can't phone your {vocalsound} your remote control .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You can {disfmarker} you are {gap} .
Project Manager: Why not ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: But why not ? Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And because of the fact that there are so many buttons in these remote controls that nobody use ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: in fact they don't even know how to use them , so most of the the people say they they don't know how to {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} to use properly their r remote controls . And uh they are bad for R_S_I_ but uh I don't remember what is R_S_I_ .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay uh tha that's look great .
Marketing: {vocalsound} So I think they are bad . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} R_S_I_ mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm nobody has any idea about that ? Well I'll check uh with my
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's electromagnetic waves or something kind of maybe uh effect .
Marketing: Oh , okay ,
User Interface: No , I don't think so .
Marketing: I think it's a technical thing
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
Marketing: which our {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: because infrared uses some electromagnetic technology ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: and those waves have high {disfmarker}
Marketing: So , it seems that {vocalsound} it's a lot of people for a concept that we don't know {vocalsound}
User Interface: But twenty six percent , do you know {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Or something we don't know . {vocalsound} Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh .
User Interface: Twenty five . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Marketing: but we have to take this into account .
User Interface: Every fourth , you know . {vocalsound} Every four {disfmarker} some of us knows .
Industrial Designer: Yeah it's {disfmarker} People really {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: So anyway
User Interface: One of us {disfmarker}
Marketing: that's for what the biggest frustration uh of the user and um
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: what else do I have ? Next slide ? Ah yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So we've listed a couple of uh
User Interface: Functions .
Marketing: s uh functions that may be uh used by u the user in the current uh available uh remote controls and uh well the tables look very nice to read but what is important is to understand that the power button is not used often because in general you {vocalsound} use it only once per session , but it is very relevant . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: People want to have a power button . Channel selection is uh o often used {disfmarker} very often used and indeed uh very relevant .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Ah {vocalsound} now I remember what is R_S_I_ {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: it's repetitivity stress injury . {vocalsound} We have to be careful with that word but {vocalsound} uh anyway
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Marketing: I continue my presentation so {disfmarker} yeah ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: channel selection is um very important , very often used . Volume is not often used but people uh want to have control on volume and that makes sense of course . And n then you have things which are very much less often used like the settings . Audio settings , screen settings , even teletext and channel settings . All of them . they're not often used and they are s more or less relevant . It seems that people find teletext teletext uh relevant , even if I personally never use it but seems that it's average relevant at least , so .
Project Manager: I have been told that we uh don't consider teletext , that it's out of date now because of internet .
Marketing: I can tell you that uh in a l in a scale between one and ten relevant uh not relevant to relevant people scored a six on this , which is not as uh these these two one were {disfmarker} had I think ten I think .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: But but if you compare with these ones , uh I think they scored a one or two .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: Not very relevant , so if if there are good reason not to put teletext it's okay but just know that people find it somehow relevant .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's for the main functions I think and uh then we can ask uh ourself uh what people don't have that may be useful . For instance I think {disfmarker} net next slide . {vocalsound} One of the thing {disfmarker} the trend uh that uh you are probably aware of is the possibility {disfmarker} the eventual possibility of having speech recognition in your remote control , so you wouldn't have to tap tap in your buttons but just tell your remote control or whatever you need you have what you want . So we've conducted a survey about uh whether people would like or not to have uh this kind of uh functionality in their remote control and as we can see it really depends on the age . Young people , probably because it's a buzz word , find it very relevant . And uh as the age goes up {vocalsound} the {vocalsound} the relevance goes down .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} So now it really depends on the kind of uh targeting uh wha who are we targeting with this remote control ?
Industrial Designer: 'Cause {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think if we are targeting young people then uh it's probably something we have to consider . If we are targeting you very old people this is something they really don't know why they {disfmarker} this should be so now
Project Manager: Mm-mm . Okay .
Marketing: this is of course , depends on that . And um I don't have any conclusion , I didn't have time the meeting was very tight , so that's basically my findings . And uh , if you have any question ?
Project Manager: Mm I think it's good , okay . You done a good review .
User Interface: I got one question ,
Marketing: I can go back .
Industrial Designer: Thank you .
Marketing: Yeah one question ,
User Interface: uh you are a Market Expert
Marketing: yeah ?
User Interface: so
Marketing: I am . {vocalsound}
User Interface: should we aim at the young people or not ?
Marketing: I think we should aim at the young people . But uh I think they are {disfmarker} they are those uh who might be more interested in a in a new device .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: In general the the early adopters of a new device are young people , less than {disfmarker} more than {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay , then teletext is used less .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Then teletext is useless for them I think ,
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: yeah . Because they they have other means of finding their information . Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm mm mm . Okay .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: That's good point .
Marketing: But {disfmarker} yeah . Nope .
Industrial Designer: Mm , yep .
User Interface: Mm . Okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: 'Kay ?
Industrial Designer: Thank you .
Project Manager: So um now I think it's the turn of the the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I'm not sure um {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Of the technical function , so {vocalsound} uh
Marketing: So I think it's you , huh ?
Industrial Designer: Uh it's
Marketing: No ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's me .
Project Manager: what effect {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: techni function of {disfmarker}
Marketing: No , user requiremen
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . Wait a second .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Argh .
Industrial Designer: I have to do working design so uh
Project Manager: So you're {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's {disfmarker} but this but number three , yes . Mm-hmm . So , my name is Mark Dwight , and um I am responsible for User Interface Design .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: However , uh mm Project Manager asked me to give you some presentation about technical functions design . Uh , as I'm a more an artist
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: that's gonna be less technical functions but more User Interface and current intentions and everything which is linked with this .
Project Manager: Okay . Let's go .
User Interface: So next slide please . And uh a general method which is {disfmarker} seems to be very useful for our task
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: is not to forget about uh Occam razor . We should never complicate things too much . We should only make a remote control , nothing more . Nothing more than this , just a remote control .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: 'Cause current remote controls they are never easy enough to use .
Marketing: Makes sense . {vocalsound}
User Interface: So , make a click , please . So here is this remote control .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's quite a standard one , but it's not from a T_V_ , it's from a much easier device like air conditioning or something . But you know , we can use it for a T_V_ easily . Only buttons we need is on off , volume , channels and maybe some options or something else , and please make a click , compared to this one
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It's {disfmarker}
User Interface: which one would you prefer ? I guess this .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
Marketing: I would say the simplest one as long as there are the uh {disfmarker} I find the buttons that I need every time I need a button .
User Interface: Sure , sure .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Maybe it can be yeah middle of {disfmarker} like , between those two
User Interface: Yeah , and our method is going to be , provide simple
Industrial Designer: li
Project Manager: Oh sorry . {vocalsound}
User Interface: simple desires into simple actions .
Marketing: Nice . Nice sentence .
User Interface: Findings .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh sorry .
User Interface: Our question of the style , we should remember that our company
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: puts fashion into electronics and we should never forget about it .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Concept .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} S you should {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Be simple . Be simple and you'll lean on this market .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Market is a {disfmarker} of remote controls {disfmarker} you know it better ,
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: it's very well , it's it's not an easy field to to play , you know ? So be simple .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: For personal preferences I think that to make a baby-proof remote control it got to be a titanium .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's a really good style , it going to be {disfmarker} look like like this . It is unbreakable and it is very universal . W we'll have a screen with a back light which can change colours ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and we can put all the options into this screen . We'll need only few buttons . All the other things can be controlled through the screen . And all these buttons should be easy to find and to click , 'cause when you watch a movie and you want to change something , you always try to find a good button and click it , but you should do it by touching it and finding it easily just by touch . So {disfmarker} Press {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: I would propose this concept for design , just few buttons , a screen with a back light which can change colours , titanium
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: I think , and uh what else ? I got just very few and good ideas . We need power and volume . And let us include two nice features into this device , first , power on and off can be made fully automatic . When you go to the sofa , take your control and point it to the T_V_ ,
Project Manager: It's off .
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: It's on .
User Interface: the T_V_ turns on .
Marketing: And when does it turn off ?
User Interface: When you don't touch the control but you go out of the {disfmarker} For for enough time
Marketing: Oh so you have a
User Interface: like uh you {disfmarker}
Marketing: sensing {disfmarker} sensor machine that uh knows {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's a question to our technical design , our {vocalsound} two engineers .
Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Tech {vocalsound}
User Interface: And another nice feature that I would like to implement is uh volume control . Suppose you set u you set up some volume and then you move out or you move to the other corner of the room and take your control with you . Like , you want to to change the chair or you want to move to the armchair from the sofa or something , and then the volume changes .
Project Manager: Or you want to go to the kitchen . {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's easy to do ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: you just control the {disfmarker}
Marketing: According to your distance to {disfmarker} and the angle maybe , if you have a stereo system .
Industrial Designer: Distance .
User Interface: According to the distance . {gap} Yeah yeah yeah . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh I'm not sure about the screen , wha what is the use usefulness of the screen ? Uh is it a touch screen by the way ?
User Interface: I think it can be just a menu which can be controlled with a left , right , up , down and enter .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So it gives instructions but uh it has to be with an back light somehow . {gap}
User Interface: So , its main purpose in fact is a back light ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: which change colours ,
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: which makes it easier to find , and each can {disfmarker} it can respond for your voice , like it can turn on the light for you just to f find it easily , yeah ?
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: So basically that's it .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um I see that you target uh several s application not only T_V_ but i like we talk about um universal uh remote control .
User Interface: Can be easily done ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: 'cause you got simple designs , y we should put it to simple actions .
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: Let it be universal , so you want to use it for your hi-fi system . You want to change tracks and you want to adjust volume .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Just few actions , a few actions for everything .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Hmm . S
User Interface: All the rest , we sh we'll put it into this menu on the screen .
Project Manager: Mm . Since we were targeting a really soon uh uh date for the the the um i issuing of this uh remote control I think we will only concentrate on T_V_ for the moment and then maybe m make it more generalised {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: Okay , okay .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Yeah and it {disfmarker} mm .
User Interface: Okay , but it's quite universal you know .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: We can just extend it to any device .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: So for instance if I want to go to {disfmarker} directly to channel twenty five , how would I do {disfmarker} can I do that with this ?
User Interface: Uh twenty five .
Marketing: Yeah mm let's say I am uh on channel eight now . You know these days we have hundreds of channels ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: that's not so easy to go just next next next when you have hundreds of channels .
User Interface: {vocalsound} In fact I would propose another solution .
Marketing: Or is it ?
User Interface: Basically you use just four or five channels , right ?
Marketing: Most people {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: yeah .
User Interface: So uh set up your T_V_ set like channels that you use they're one , two , three and five , and you will never have to go to a twenty fives channel .
Marketing: In fact in in one uh remote control that I've seen , instead of doing that d you could just say these are the cha ch channel three , twenty eight , forty eight and uh sixty four are those that I want to by cycled with my next button .
Project Manager: Yeah it's it's the same solution , I think . Hmm .
Marketing: I uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: B yeah .
Industrial Designer: But even we can have some uh L_C_D_ display , like you can uh de you can just button the number
Marketing: Go to channel twenty five .
Industrial Designer: and then it go
Marketing: One thing is that as I said in my presentation people really do like to z zap .
Industrial Designer: t because {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: So even if they are only watching four or five channels , I think they want to zap out of the one hundred channels ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: But still {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: just because this is one kind of thing they do , zapping .
Project Manager: Yeah uh on zap it's only next next next next next , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: And it's only next .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah
User Interface: Mm . We got these buttons here . Next next .
Marketing: so {disfmarker} but you have to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah. .
User Interface: Or say this can be back .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . But otherwise like we can put some display on numbers and then they can just press {disfmarker} suppose two five they just press two and five
Marketing: So it would be {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and then {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Maybe we can make uh different modes for each button
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: and you can change mode {disfmarker} zapping mode or
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Alright .
Project Manager: uh current chan
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah . Yeah but since we are focusing only on T_V_ remote controls
Marketing: {vocalsound} Listening more .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so we can have more functions for T_V_
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: uh if you want to go for a universal then we ought to limit for functions for each of our devices .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: Could we carry out some research if we w really need this , like how many people really need to go to channel number twenty five and then to sixty four ?
Marketing: Well I could could uh have a look at that {vocalsound} maybe .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I'll check in my department if there's someone specialist in that . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Although I don't know . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Alright ? Thanks for your attention .
Project Manager: Uh you're finish ? Okay . So now {vocalsound} the technical aspects of this new device . Mm .
Industrial Designer: Two . Yeah , if {disfmarker} {gap} Sorry .
Project Manager: You prefer it {gap} . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Uh as you know , I am mister Ramaro . I am an expert in uh industrial design of all electronic devices and I previously devised many uh {disfmarker} like digital calculators and electronic calculators . {vocalsound} So now I'll briefly describe the working design of our remote control . Well , as you know the basic function of remote control is sending some message to the the device , like T_V_ or V_C_R_ or D_V_D_ player etcetera . So we will have a p portable device which will send message to the the main device like T_V_ . So we need to have some energy source to do what {disfmarker} to do the functions , what we want on this portable device . {vocalsound} And usually this {disfmarker} so to do these functions we need an interface , which basically some kind of pressing buttons or keys or like moving jack or something like that . And then these messages {disfmarker} these key buttons can be transferred into some kind of message and then it will process by the chip and then it will generate some information to the main device . It's generally in the form of infrared or some kind of s sensor information . Then we will have the main control in the main device to do the particular action what we want . So , basically we need uh since we are focusing on our interface device {gap} remote control mainly the energy source like the battery and then we have user interface like uh the keypad and you know buttons we want , and then we have some chip , it's mainly digital signal processing chip because since we are {disfmarker} I am one doing mostly digital uh devices we ought to have some kind of processor which take care of all these functions and put it in some digital format . And then we'll have the infrared L_E_D_ source which sends the information to the main device . Then we'll have switch in our main uh um device to do particular operations , and we ought to do different codes for different T_V_s ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so some T_V_s will have different encryption codes for doing s s uh channel changing and these things .
Project Manager: Okay . To make it quite uh an universal uh device uh .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah , because the people don't use one particular brand so
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: or at least we have more more than five brands , which are really good .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So we need to check their specifications and do their uh encryption that's passing information to the T_V_ device . So we need to have particular encryption codes .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Then , components , so we have the main uh energy source and then we will have some buttons and then we will have infrared uh source and then we have some inside some chip in in the device . Uh since I don't have much time so I'll input the connections to all this components . And since I also want to know feedback from our Marketing Expert and User Interface ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so if you want to add some more components we can incorporate them .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . And from from the discussion we had do you {disfmarker} can you make it on the whiteboard , or {disfmarker} mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , I'm sure , because since our User Interface {gap} speech recognition and also Marketing Expert for the speech recognition is really handy ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: we can have another , like uh s simple speech recogniser on our D_S_B_ chip .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Since we have some kind of uh energy this is our this normal battery , so this battery , once you s switch on it will take power and we can have some speech recognition and in our g generally small digital signal processing chip so that and we will put uh the small uh simple speech recogniser
Project Manager: On {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and we can also train the speech recogniser for particular user so you just {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh train it , okay . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: yeah , so that we just use simple recog
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Too complex .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: no but but {disfmarker}
Marketing: But uh very very good to sell . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . No , even in {disfmarker} you can find even simple mobile device like any mobile brand you can have these voice dialers or these things , yeah .
Marketing: Think of a all these young people who would love to say that this remote control only works for them ,
User Interface: Okay . Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: and ha ha you cannot use my remote control ,
Project Manager: Mm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: because it's targeted to me . Whatever . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: And what about the price of this component ?
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} Uh maybe we can make uh it in five Euros and even less than that ,
Project Manager: It mm {disfmarker} okay .
Marketing: Hmm . Cheap .
Industrial Designer: because we want to have uh millions and in bulk ,
Marketing: Millions . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so we can make really simp
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: and we want to make really simple device
Marketing: Cheap .
Industrial Designer: because we have only very few words like like power , switch on or some like
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: then we'll have something like this um we'll have volume and then we will have s particular channel , so users can listen .
Marketing: The user uh will just be able to say uh please can you uh pump up the vo pump up the volume
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: or or it will be something like volume , up , down .
Industrial Designer: Ye No , yeah , a user can use any kind of sender but they should have this prompt {gap} volume and then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: With a keywords and {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah volume and decrease or increase , so we try to only recognise those words
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm mm .
Industrial Designer: and and because we can't really say user to say same wording
Marketing: Couple of words .
Industrial Designer: then it become more mechanical and {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Um .
Industrial Designer: And then we can have channel they can say , okay I want eight , because we don't know like users have different programmes , I mean they don't really follow same channels strict uh so we just want channel number ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay . {gap} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: we don't want like B_B_C_ or C_N_N_ or something else
Marketing: Of course uh it has to be {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: because it will be complicated so we'll have only these three uh main basic uh anyway volume is not really speech recognition problem ,
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: it's it it will be take care of our main {disfmarker} mm .
User Interface: No you know it's a conceptual question , 'cause now I see th this {disfmarker} the picture in front of my eyes like a user taking his remote control and shouting into it , volume up , volume up ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} But then I think you you {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: and and he's coming {disfmarker} you know , he's really annoyed with this , down , up , down . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: First of all I I think this is not uh functionality that it is going to be instead of using the buttons .
Project Manager: No , in no not only speech , yeah .
Marketing: It's on top of using the button .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I it's an option .
User Interface: Okay , for this budget like twelve Euros .
Marketing: Well , I dunno . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah actually we we can have one switch to like uh switch on , on and off , this {gap} processor and {disfmarker} This really {gap} , suppose like here we have our main chip which controls power , volume and this part and this D_S_P_s .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Again , this to have some interaction like suppose people use D_S_P_ then it particularly sends some information to the chip like in some form , like volume and {gap} like this key .
User Interface: Okay. .
Industrial Designer: So it may not be like very expensive , because since we are only focusing on T_V_ remote control
Marketing: T_V_ .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so {disfmarker} and we have only few things here {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Sho to to train , okay .
User Interface: Did you consider the r gest uh gesture recognition ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Like , if I want to put volume up I like do {disfmarker} mm I take my remote control do like {disfmarker} something like
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: roll 'em up
Industrial Designer: Um uh uh this point we didn't consider
User Interface: or roll 'em down .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Very expensive ,
Industrial Designer: because it's it's very expensive
Marketing: no ?
Industrial Designer: because v our target is only like twelve point five Euros
Project Manager: And well , what about the idea of automatic on off on the button , yeah .
User Interface: Mm why ?
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
Marketing: And volume control .
Industrial Designer: even automatic on off is also a bit problematic , because it {disfmarker} different criteria for different people like so suppose people are really uh they just uh they don't touch the remote and mm y you don't know how much time you need to switch on or switch off
Marketing: So but uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Sh should we target a a user personalised uh uh remote control ? So in in a given room there might be more than one remote control . We would uh have each one and uh with our own personal uh settings .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yay yeah . Yeah that can be possible , especially for power settings , so user can say okay , suppose they're watching a tennis match or something then they can say okay uh after one hour I {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: Wouldn't that make uh {vocalsound} arguments ?
Industrial Designer: They can make {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , of course .
Project Manager: I want uh {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah we can have {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} That's no problem , we will sell more . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And we can increase this {vocalsound} the strength
User Interface: {vocalsound} We got a really good Market Expert .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah exactly .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} y you can buy one with {vocalsound}
User Interface: Let's send more , let's sell more .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay . You have mm something else to say ? Uh .
Industrial Designer: Uh , not very much ,
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: like {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: Okay . Thanks .
Project Manager: Okay , thanks .
Industrial Designer: Thank you . Yep . Thank you .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So
Industrial Designer: Can you just {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: mm
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: mm I think , okay , we're just on time . Um mm mm . So , we're now going to l have the lunch break .
Marketing: Mm great . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Then we will work again for thirty minutes individual work , and um {vocalsound} we will uh meet again for the next meeting , and uh in this one want to to be more focused on the individual actions the um {disfmarker} on the components so {vocalsound} uh you will focus on the component concept um
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah .
Project Manager: uh of course the U_I_D_ Mark will be uh focused on the user interface concept
Industrial Designer: Mark will {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and uh our m Market Expert Sammy Benjo uh on the trend watching . So {vocalsound} um of course like before specific instruction will be sent to you by your personal personal coach . Well I think that's all . And we have um maybe we have to {disfmarker} we say , only for T_V_ , not teletext ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh I think automatic on off control uh it's not possible .
Industrial Designer: Uh it's in current price , yeah .
Marketing: Difficult .
Project Manager: Yeah , maybe in the next uh step if we make it work um .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . But speech recogniser can be possible .
Project Manager: Yeah , implemented . O okay , we can think about that .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And um do you see something else ?
Marketing: No .
User Interface: Uh , should it be equipped with the uh , with uh speakers ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Speakers in the remote cont
User Interface: Like , you want to find it , you shout
Marketing: Oh yeah .
Project Manager: Uh yeah
User Interface: control ,
Project Manager: that's {disfmarker}
User Interface: and it answers is I'm here ? Or {disfmarker}
Marketing: It just beeps .
User Interface: Just beeps ?
Marketing: That would be enough .
Project Manager: Or maybe you want to phone him .
Marketing: Something very cheap .
Project Manager: Since now all {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah yeah .
Marketing: But that's ex that's expensive . Uh .
Project Manager: yeah ? Think
Industrial Designer: Yeah , especially the power , it really consumes
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: because it should be all the time on and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well I I heard of devices where you just uh whistle them and and they {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And it's answered .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: because of the the frequency they they just answer to that .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: I can't whistle . No , no , I can't .
Marketing: You can't whistle . Uh-huh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Or a clap . You can clap . Can you ?
Project Manager: Clap clap clap it's a good {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Clap is good .
Project Manager: I I think it's universal .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Tak
Project Manager: {vocalsound} What about people without hand ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Just a {vocalsound} suggestion .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah I think it's good .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} With only one hand ? {vocalsound} {vocalsound} These are not our target people . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm uh okay .
Industrial Designer: But it's a good feature I guess yeah we need to think about more how to incorporate it .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay .
User Interface: Just don't interfere with other devices like 'cause like all these people do that their lights are turning on with clapping .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Marketing: Oh that's e that already exists
User Interface: Yeah , I got it at my home , like {gap} {vocalsound} .
Marketing: okay okay .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Oh yeah , you do have .
User Interface: Oops .
Industrial Designer: Ah it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Wow . You're trendy . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm , so {vocalsound} let's to think s so that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Think about it .
Project Manager: yeah . I think that could be in the component uh concept uh .
Marketing: Yeah , okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: It {disfmarker} yes . {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: Okay . Good
Project Manager: So ,
Marketing: we're done ?
Project Manager: yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: let's go to lunch .
Industrial Designer: Thank you , thank you very much .
Marketing: Right , thanks .
Project Manager: {gap} | |
doc_152 | The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 12th meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. This will be the first hybrid meeting of the committee. Some members will be participating via videoconference and some will be participating in person. This follows the order made by the House on May26,2020. Members who have already participated in a virtual meeting of the special committee may actually not notice any change, except for the fact that some members are also participating from the floor of the House. An additional rubric, that of statements by members, was also added to the proceedings of the committee. In order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber, two screens have been set up in the chamber on either side of the Speakers chair. Sound amplification for virtual interventions will be available, and members in the chamber can listen to the floor sound or interpretation using the earpieces on their desks. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. Please also direct your remarks through the Chair. Thank you. For those of you joining via video conference, I would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking. Also, please note that if you want to speak in English, you should be on the English channel. If you want to speak French, you should be on the French channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages. Should members participating by videoconference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times, they should activate their microphone and state that they have a point of order. Those in the chamber can simply rise in the usual way. Please note that today's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the House. Next we'll move on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we'll move on to petitions. We'll be presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificates off at the table once the petitions are presented. First on our list for presenting petitions is Ms. May, who is joining us virtually.
Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP): Mr. Chair, what an honour to be the first voice coming to you from the screens on either side of the Speaker of the House. I speak to you from SaanichGulf Islands on the traditional territory of the WSNEC people. Hych'ka Siem. I'm presenting a petition, number 431-00215, and it has been certified. The petitioners call on this House to take note of the fact that Canada is the only country with a universal health care system that does not include the provision of necessary prescription medications. They note that the system across Canada is a patchwork that leaves three million Canadians unprepared and uninsured to be able to purchase necessary medications. They call on the House assembled to put in place a system of universal national pharmacare, bringing down the cost of drugs through bulk purchasing. I think I'll call that a summary, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much.
The Chair: The next petition will be presented by Mr. Genuis.
Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'm pleased to be presenting two petitions before the committee today. The first petition is in support of Bill S-204. This Senate public bill, been put forward by Senator Salma Ataullahjan in the Senate, would make it a criminal offence for someone to go abroad to receive an organ for which there has not been consent. It also has a mechanism by which somebody could be deemed inadmissible to Canada for being involved in the horrible practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking. This bill has been before various Parliaments for over 10 years, and petitioners are hopeful that this Parliament will be the one that finally takes action to address forced organ harvesting and trafficking. The second petition is put forward by folks who are concerned about Bill C-7, particularly the efforts by the government through Bill C-7 to remove vital safeguards that are currently associated with Canada's euthanasia regime. Petitioners are not happy about the fact that the government is trying to eliminate the 10-day reflection period and remove other safeguards that only four short years ago the government thought were essential for the euthanasia and assisted suicide system that they were putting in place. The petitioners call on the government to address that, and they are not supportive of these particular efforts to remove vital safeguards from that regime. Thank you very much.
The Chair: Is anyone else presenting petitions? Seeing none, we'll move on to statements by members. We will now proceed to Statements by Members for a period not exceeding 15minutes. Each statement will be for one minute. The first will be from Mr.Samson. Mr.Samson, you have the floor.
Mr. Darrell Samson (SackvillePrestonChezzetcook, Lib.): Good afternoon, everyone. It's an honour to be presenting an S. O. 31. This spring has been a difficult one for Nova Scotia and the communities of SackvillePrestonChezzetcook. While residents have banded together to tackle the challenges presented by COVID-19, we have also had to mourn the passing of three remarkable local women: RCMP Constable Heidi Stevenson, well known by many in Cole Harbour and the surrounding areas; our own Sub-Lieutenant Abbigail Cowbrough, who was based out of 12 Wing Shearwater; and Captain Jenn Casey of the Canadian Forces Snowbirds. All three women died in the line of duty in separate tragic events while serving our country. These three brave women, who served with honour on land, at sea and in the air, represent the absolute best of us. Heidi, Abbigail and Jenn were inspirational and will not be forgotten. Thank you.
The Chair: Next we'll go to Mr. Bezan.
Mr. James Bezan (SelkirkInterlakeEastman, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Canada needs a prime minister who will create jobs and opportunity, but instead we have a prime minister who is piling up crippling national debt. Yesterday the PBO predicted the federal deficit this year will hit over $252 billion. That is almost equivalent to an average year of government spending before the Liberal government. After five years with this debt, Prime Minister, Canada's national debt is set to hit $1 trillion, with almost nothing to show for it. Industries from coast to coast are either closed or are struggling. Canadian workers need and deserve a prime minister who supports our energy sector and gets our natural resources and agriculture products to market, who supports small business and will make our tax system encourage job creation and growth, and who will bring advanced manufacturing jobs to Canada and keep the automotive industry growing. Most importantly, we need a Conservative prime minister who will get the government finances under control after the massive debt left by this prime minister.
The Chair: Next we'll go to Mr. Anandasangaree.
Mr. Gary Anandasangaree (ScarboroughRouge Park, Lib.): Mr. Chair, I speak today with a very heavy heart. Since the COVID-19 outbreak, we've seen a disproportionate number of deaths in long-term care homes. I'm thankful for the Canadian Armed Forces who were deployed to the Altamont care home in my riding and four other facilities across the GTA. The CAF have brought forward horrifying allegations in the operation of these homes. They include residents being given expired or improper doses of medication; not being cleaned or changed for a prolonged period of time; being forcibly fed, causing choking; being bed-bound for weeks; receiving inadequate nutrition, and much more. Mr. Chair, I call upon Premier Ford to place these five homes under a mandatory management order and to appoint a third party manager to address and rectify these violations. I also call upon the Premier to undertake an independent public inquiry into the tragedy we face in long-term care facilities across Ontario. Finally, Mr. Chair, we need to work with the provinces and territories to set national standards of care for the most vulnerable in our society. We can and must do better. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The Chair: We have a point of order. Go ahead, Ms. May.
Ms. Elizabeth May: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I hesitate to interrupt colleagues, but I'm concerned about the petition practice, which, as I understand it, is to summarize a petition but not make a speech. I felt one of our colleagues was trespassing on our usual rules.
The Chair: I will remind honourable members that when a petition is presented, we're expected to give a prcis and make it as concise as possible. Thank you. Mr.Champoux, you have the floor.
Mr. Martin Champoux (Drummond, BQ): Mr.Chair, I would like to recognize the resilience of Quebeckers concerned for their jobs or their businesses during the COVID-19 crisis. They need us to plan for after the crisis, and we must do so now. To do so, we need the proper information. We need to know the status of the public finances. That is why the Bloc Qubcois is demanding that the government present an economic update, and that it do so before June17. This is not about making a spectacle. Everyone knows that the deficit will be huge. We had to provide the people with support and we all agree on that. But we have to know to what extent. We also have to know where we are starting from so that we can plan where we are going. This is about respecting the public, because they are the ones who will be paying the bill. In closing, I would like to remind the government that one group is not really contributing to the public purse at the moment. I am talking about the tech giants, the GAFAM group, that have never before been used to the extent that they are now, and that are still not paying a cent in tax in Canada. The Liberals promised to correct this injustice. Now is a great time for them to do so.
The Chair: We'll now go to Ms. Sidhu.
Ms. Sonia Sidhu (Brampton South, Lib.): Mr. Chair, this week is National Paramedic Services Week. I want to take this opportunity to thank the Peel region police, paramedic and firefighting services for keeping Bramptonians safe. In my riding, organizations have stepped up to help our community. Organizations such as the Khalsa Aid Society, the Interfaith Council of Peel, the Brampton YMCA, the Prayer Stone Peoples Church, Unity in the Community, Ste. Louise Outreach Centre, Knights Table, the Yogi Divine Society, Vraj Community Service, Regeneration Brampton and many more have made our community stronger during this difficult time. I also have to address the report that came out yesterday from our brave Canadian Armed Forces. Like many Canadians, I was shocked by this report from the long-term care centres, including one in my riding. The examples of abuse described in the report are unacceptable. Our seniors deserve dignity and respect. We must find a solution. We need to fix this.
The Chair: We'll now go to Mrs. Stubbs.
Mrs. Shannon Stubbs (Lakeland, CPC): Mr. Chair, Canada's oil and gas sector is in crisis, made worse by five years of bad policies, red tape and barriers to pipelines. Just in the last two months, we saw the largest production cut in Canadian history. Active rigs dropped by 92% and tens of thousands of oil and gas workers lost their jobs, adding to the 200,000 since 2015. Energy is Canada's biggest investor, and exporting could lead the recovery if there are actions, not just words. On March 25, the finance minister promised help in hours or days, not weeks, but he's letting Canadians down. Sixty-three days later, small oil and gas companies still can't apply for BDC loans, and last week's large employer loan terms are predatory, with interest rates escalating to 14% by year five. Those are payday loan rates. The required stock options being at record lows could make the government the largest shareholder. That's not emergency assistance; it's pandemic profiteering. Programs can't help workers if businesses can't or won't actually get the support. The Liberals' death-by-delay tactics are doing exactly what foreign activists in other countries want: to shut down Canada's oil.
The Chair: Ms.Bessette, the floor is yours.
Mrs. Lyne Bessette (BromeMissisquoi, Lib.): Mr.Chair, in times of crisis, we stick together. I can state that this is certainly the case in BromeMissisquoi. In the last weeks, I have been calling volunteer action centres in my constituency so that they can tell me their news. I would like to take the time that I have to highlight the work that community organizations are doing tirelessly in my constituency. The crisis has made us realize the extent to which food banks and meals-on-wheels can not only relieve hunger, but also relieve thousands of shut-in seniors of their loneliness. Let me also highlight the devotion of the volunteers giving generously of their time, particularly the initiative of Mabel Hastings in the volunteer aid centre in Mansonville. Like me, she sends out a daily newsletter to keep the public informed about the many resources available for their support. COVID-19 is bringing out the best in our community and I am certain that, together, we will get through it.
The Chair: We will go to Mr. Virani.
Mr. Arif Virani (ParkdaleHigh Park, Lib.): Mr. Chair, during the COVID-19 pandemic I have been inspired by the courageous work of so many essential workers. I want to thank everyone on the front lines for keeping us safe, keeping us fed and keeping our communities functioning. I want to make special note of one particular essential health care worker, a woman who is a quarantine manager with the Public Health Agency of Canada. I have personally seen her working tirelessly over the past three months to keep all of us safe. That woman is my wife, Suchita Jain. Suchi, I love you, I am very proud of you and I thank you for all of the sacrifices you are making. I want to highlight another woman from my riding of ParkdaleHigh Park, Rachelle LeBlanc. She is a local designer. When the pandemic broke, she saw the need for protective barriers for small shops in Parkdale, so she set about collecting donations. She then put her design talents to work and started designing free-standing protective shields. Rachelle's team has now delivered 25 free COVID protective shields to small shopkeepers in Parkdale, and the team is on track to building 100 more. It's the compassion of Canadians like Rachelle that gives meaning to the phrase we are all in this together.
The Chair: Mr.Godin, you have the floor.
Mr. Jol Godin (PortneufJacques-Cartier, CPC): Mr.Chair, the school year has been shattered and our graduating classes must be proud of what they have achieved amid the COVID-19 pandemic. Young men, young women, be proud of your accomplishments! You can believe in the future. Keep learning. It will give you tools that will serve you all your lives. What you have achieved in this extraordinary year will set you apart from the others. I invite you to be inspired by that and turn it to your advantage. The current government has the obligation to promote the values that will lead you to become involved in your communities. Your willingness to learn or to work makes you into better citizens. Knowledge and experience are irreplaceable and invaluable. I implore this government, which is unaware of the damage it is causing, to immediately announce all the positions that have already been approved under the Canada summer jobs program. Urgent action is needed. Let us have confidence in our organizations, our companies, and let us support our youth, a rich resource that we must equip and motivate. I congratulate all the young graduates in the beautiful constituency of PortneufJacques-Cartier.
The Chair: We will now go to Mr. Fergus.
Mr. Greg Fergus (HullAylmer, Lib.): Mr.Chair, this pandemic lets us see what Canadians are made of. This coming Saturday, May30, more than 2,000Christians of all denominations are coming together virtually for prayer and for action. When the going gets tough, Canadians get going. This could not be more true than with respect to what will be happening on May 30. This Saturday, in more than 2,000 churches and homes, thousands of faith-filled Canadians are gathering to pray and act on those prayers as part of Stand United Canada. They will gather through television, Facebook Live and Instagram Live. Then they are going to deliver much-needed support to at-risk Canadians who live in disadvantaged areas. This is faith in action. I'm sure I speak for all parliamentarians when I wish success to Stand United Canada. I hope it inspires more Canadians to follow in its footsteps. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The Chair: We will now go to Ms. Harder.
Ms. Rachael Harder (Lethbridge, CPC): The best way to safeguard the truth is to allow people to speak freely, but from the very beginning of this pandemic, the Liberals have silenced dissent. Sadly, their short-sightedness has been to the detriment of Canadians. Early on, they propagated the notion that human-to-human transmission wasn't possible. They said that closing the borders wasn't necessary. They told us that wearing face masks wouldn't help. It is undeniable that the Liberal government has put Canadians in danger by silencing alternative points of view and has spread misinformation. Ironically, however, they have now gone ahead and crowned themselves the arbiters of truth. They are spending millions of dollars to censor what Canadians can and cannot say. They are determining what is true and what is not, what is right and what is wrong, what is in and what is out. When freedom of speech is repressed, it is safe to say that democracy is under siege. I call upon the government to restore the personal liberties that are granted under our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. This is Canada. We are not an autocracy; we are a democracy.
The Chair: We will now go to Mr. Nater.
Mr. John Nater (PerthWellington, CPC): Mr. Chair, small businesses have always been the cornerstone of communities across this country. They provide employment and economic stability and are always the first to support community functions and activities, but small businesses have been particularly hard hit due to COVID-19. They have shut their doors temporarily, and now many worry they'll never be able to open their doors again. With the season cancellations at the Stratford Festival, Drayton Entertainment and Stratford Summer Music, businesses in the tourism, hospitality, accommodation and retail sectors in PerthWellington are struggling. Every day, I talk to small business owners who can't access the Canada emergency business account, and others who find the convoluted commercial rent assistance program to be out of reach. The program is needlessly complicated, frustratingly slow and excessively restrictive. Mr. Chair, the government needs to go back, fix these programs and ensure that support goes to the small businesses that need it.
The Chair: We will now go to Ms. Collins.
Ms. Laurel Collins (Victoria, NDP): Mr. Chair, Canadians have been shaken by this pandemic. It has exposed the gaps in our health care system and our social safety net. It has shown how vulnerable we all are when disaster hits. It has brought us to a crossroads. We can go backwards to so-called business as usual, with horrific conditions in long-term care homes, widespread inequality and no real action on climate change, or we can build for better. In Victoria, people in the community, organizations and municipal leaders have been calling for a new way forward. The City of Victoria has a plan for reinvention, resilience and recovery. Organizations like Greater Victoria Acting Together; Common Vision, Common Action; and Kairos Victoria are exploring ideas for a sustainable and just recovery. We can build for better. We can invest in the infrastructure. We need to fight climate change, homelessness and inequality. We can build a Canada where we take better care of the planet and each other.
The Chair: We now move to Ms.DeBellefeuille.
Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (SalaberrySurot, BQ): Mr.Chair, in this time of pandemic, it is with heartfelt emotion that I want to highlight the excellent work of all the guardian angels at the CISSS de la Montrgie-Ouest. From the bottom of my heart, I want to thank the entire staff, as well as the retirees who have come back to provide their assistance. I admire the managers, at all levels and in all services, working tirelessly so that their teams can answer the call in this difficult situation. My fellow managers and the management teams of the Support Program for the Autonomy of Seniors, both in home support and in residential care, you have my heartfelt congratulations for the herculean work you have done. My thoughts go particularly to Lyne Ricard and Vronique Proulx, managers working diligently with their teams of professionals to support the seniors living in intermediate resources, as we call them. I also warmly recognize the director of nursing services, Chantal Careau, who is facing the current challenge with passion and humanity. Once again, my congratulations go to the entire organization of the CISSS de la Montrgie-Ouest for their remarkable work in this difficult and very demanding time.
The Chair: We will go to Mr. Barlow.
Mr. John Barlow (Foothills, CPC): During the worst of times, we see the best in people. Heroes are born, characters revealed, resiliency is sowed. I cannot say enough about my constituents in Foothillsfront-line health care workers, grocery store clerks, restaurateurs, farmersfor all they are doing to keep our community safe and healthy. I want to shine a light on some of our hidden heroes, such as Owen Plumb, a grade 9 student in Okotoks who is using his 3D printer to build PPE for front-line health care workers. He partnered with the Rotary Club and Evergreen Solutions in Okotoks to help with the manufacturing and assembly. There is also Sam Schofield, the volunteer president of the Pincher Creek Chamber of Commerce, overnight built a resiliency website for COVID-19 by building training tools for businesses throughout his area. He also helped develop the Foothills Business Recovery Taskforce, which is a resource for businesses throughout southern Alberta in my riding. Finally, to the employees of Cargill Foods in High River, I know this has been a very difficult time and that many of you have lost loved ones. I want to say thank you for tirelessly doing all you can to protect our food supply and keep food on our table. Each and every one of you is a hero. Thank you. Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
The Chair: We will now go to Mr. Simms.
Mr. Scott Simms (Coast of BaysCentralNotre Dame, Lib.): Thank you, Chair. I would like to take this time to salute those who go above and beyond the call of duty to provide care and comfort to others. In my 16 years in the House of Commons I have never experienced anything like this, when we find our lives are at a standstill and there is so much sorrow felt by families who suffer from the effects of COVID-19. However, here are two examples of kindness right here in Newfoundland and Labrador. Shanna and Fred Patey of Bishop's Falls, along with a few of their friends, spend hours next to the Trans-Canada Highway with just a barbeque and a cooler. They serve free meals for truckers crossing our province each and every day. So far they have provided over 1,500 meals. There is also Mitch Strickland of Grand Falls-Windsor, who owns Appy's Diner. He has continually provided food for the local hospital and other front-line workers through his donations. To all our front-line workers in grocery stores and delivery trucks, and to doctors, nurses, LPNs, paramedics, first responders and, of course, our brave women and men in the military, we will be forever grateful and blessed because of you. Thank you. Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
The Chair: That's all the time we have today for Statements by Members. Before going on, I just want to remind all the members that it is a one-minute statement, so if you don't mind, please time it before coming in because we do have limited time. The other thing that has come up is that some of you just naturally speak very quickly. I'm not here to judge anybody's way of speaking, but try to consider the translators and interpreters to make sure that everyone understands what is said, because they are working diligently to try to get both languages out. In sum, there are two things: please slow down and please make sure the statement is confined to one minute. We now move to Questions to Ministers. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes in order to allow the employees who are providing support for the sitting to substitute for each other safely. Our first question goes to the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Scheer.
Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. In the early days of the pandemic and the lockdown that followed, Canadians were told by this government that programs would be rolled out very quickly and that gaps and shortcomings would be changed as time went on. While many Canadians are being let down by this government's response and its unnecessarily rigid programs, Conservatives identified solutions weeks ago, yet here we are, two and a half months later, and many of these programs still have not been improved. I have a simple question for the Prime Minister. On April 26 the Conservatives asked the Prime Minister to change the criteria for the Canada emergency business account so that small businesses that don't happen to have a business bank account could qualify for those types of programs. It's now May 27. Is the Prime Minister going to make that change?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister): Mr. Chair, we knew from the beginning of this pandemic that we did need to move extremely quickly, and that's what we did. We rolled out the Canada emergency response benefit extremely quickly. Eight million Canadians have had that as a replacement for paycheques lost because of COVID-19. We also moved forward on the wage subsidy and a range of other programs to support workers and small businesses. What we've done in terms of helping small businesses with the Canada emergency business account has had a massive impact on small businesses across the country, but we understand that certain companies and businesses have particularities that mean it's a little more difficult for them to qualify. We are working with them through their regional development agencies, and we encourage them to approach their local RDAs, which will be able to help them get the money they deserve.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, these are very simple technical fixes that can be made by this government. There's no excuse for the delay. It's May 27. They've known about these problems for weeks. They're trying to get patted on the back for actions they took back in March, and yet they are letting so many Canadians down by not making these very simple changes. For example, companies that have acquired another company in the last year have employees whose jobs are threatened. The businesses are not allowed to qualify for the wage subsidy because their revenue is now counted together. We have identified this gap. Again, it's a simple question. Will companies that have acquired another company still be allowed to use the wage subsidy to keep workers on the job, yes or no?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, I know that there are many different types of businesses across this country that need support. We have moved forward on supporting as many of them as we possibly can, and we continue to work on filling gaps. I know the member opposite has talked to me a number of times about a tractor company in his riding. I can assure you that finance officials are engaged with that company to see if there's a way to make sure we're getting them the support they need.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: It's actually a very simple fix. I can save him and his officials a lot of time. The government used the word amalgamation when it announced the changes to that program. He can make this very clear, and save a lot of work, just by including the word acquisition. Will he do that?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, I can assure you that finance officials are working closely with Brandt Tractor. They're continuing to work with a range of businesses across the country that, for various reasons, are not able to apply for the help we have now. We will continue to work to make sure people who need the help get it.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, it's literally one word. We can email him the text. We can send him the page in the dictionary where that word is defined, if that would help. Another gap that is letting people down is in the rent relief program. The government has set the parameters to qualify for the rent relief program for companies that have experienced a 70% revenue loss. There are untold thousands of businesses that have experienced a 50%, 55%, 60% or 65% loss that are ineligible but have no capacity to pay the rent. We called on the government weeks ago to have a more flexible sliding scale to allow more companies to access this program to keep more people on the job and more businesses open. Will the government introduce some flexibility to this program to help more businesses survive?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, from the beginning of this pandemic, our public servants and policy-makers have been moving creatively and quickly to try to get help to as many people as we possibly can, with our focus being on the people who need it the most. Obviously, this pandemic is affecting everyone and every business across the country in different ways, but our focus has been on ensuring that those who most need it are getting the help they can. We will, of course, continue to work with the parties opposite and all Canadians to ensure that we're getting help to everyone who needs it, but our focus has always been on the most vulnerable, first and foremost.
The Chair: The floor now goes to Mr.Blanchet.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ): Thank you, Mr.Chair. My question is for the Prime Minister. If the Liberal Party of Canada had not taken advantage of the emergency programs, would it have laid off all its staff?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, we recognized that a number of organizations and companies were facing difficulties because of COVID-19. People work for those organizations, as accountants, receptionists, assistants or labourers, and those people need to be supported. We are supporting people all over the country through that program.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Is the Liberal Party one of those organizations in difficulty?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Any company or organization that can demonstrate a significant drop in its income, whether that be in donations, receipts, profits
The Chair: The floor goes to Mr.Blanchet.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Is the Liberal Party of Canada in difficulty, as an organization?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, we created specific criteria to help organizations in difficulty. Any organization experiencing those difficulties can apply.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: In the Magdalen Islands, fishing companies in difficulty and in need of assistance will not have the money that the Liberals are going to take. Is the Liberal Party of Canada in difficulty, as an organization?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, we have invested in assistance for fishers all across the country. We recognize that it is a difficult situation because of COVID-19. We will be here for our fishers and for industries in difficulty.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: I am not catching many answers, it seems to me. A company in Drummondville that manufactures isolation membranes is in difficulty because a federal program is inadequate. Compared to that company, is the Liberal Party of Canada in difficulty, as an organization?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, there are clear criteria for submitting applications under these programs. Companies and organizations that receive money qualify for those programs.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: If the program criteria establish that the Liberal Party is an organization in difficulty, does that mean that the criteria to determine whether an organization is in difficulty are poorly designed?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, all through this pandemic, our priority has been to be here for workers in difficulty so that they do not lose their jobs. This applies to all organizations and companies in the country to the extent possible. That is what we are in the process of doing.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Given the answers from the Prime Minister, let me ask this question: is the Prime Minister in difficulty?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: No, Mr.Chair. We are doing important work for all Canadians, every day.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Restaurant owners on rue Ontario in Montreal feel that they will not make it through the crisis and that they will never open their doors again. They are in difficulty. By comparison, is the Liberal Party of Canada an organization in difficulty that will not open its doors again after the crisis? We can but hope.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, we established criteria for that program in order to help those working for various organizations. Any organization that receives the subsidy has qualified for it.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Is there a consensus in the Liberal Party caucus that the Liberal Party is in difficulty as an organization?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, we are working every day to help Canadians and workers in difficulty. We are going to continue to do that work.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Does answering a question put the Prime Minister in difficulty?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, it is a pleasure to be here in the House and to answer questions from Canadians and from members of the opposition.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: You are going to answer a question from a Quebecker, I hope. Companies are struggling in Saguenay, in the Gasp, in Beloeil. Would those companies not deserve to be saved by the money that the supposedly struggling Liberal Party has taken?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: I am always very happy to answer questions from all Canadians currently sitting in the House. We will be here to help workers in difficulty all across the country, including in Quebec.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: If the Prime Minister is so happy to answer questions, I hope he will be delirious with joy to answer this one. Is the Liberal Party in difficulty?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, we established a program to help those working in organizations and who could lose their jobs because of COVID-19. We are here to help workers in organizations and companies all over the country.
The Chair: We'll now go on to Mr. Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. The conditions of seniors as outlined by the military were appalling, but seniors need more than just compassionate words. They need action. Will the Prime Minister stop hiding behind excuses and actually show leadership to fix long-term care?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, the Constitution of Canada is not an excuse. It lays out the divisions of powers and responsibilities, and we respect the provinces' jurisdiction over long-term care facilities. However, from the very beginning, we have indicated our willingness to support the provinces on this very important issue. We need to make sure our seniors right across the country are properly cared for, which is why we sent in the military and why we are there to help the provinces.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: The former federal health minister, Dr. Philpott, said, We need to stop using jurisdiction as an excuse to not have federal leadership. That is a former federal health minister. Now, we know from the military report that staff were afraid to use vital equipment because of the cost. Will the Prime Minister call for an end to profit in long-term care?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, over the past couple of days I've had very good conversations with the premiers of both Quebec and Ontario on this important issue. I look forward to discussing issues around long-term care with all the premiers of the provinces and territories tomorrow evening as well. This is something that Canadians have seen needs concerted action. We will be there to support the provinces.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Needles were reused and expired medication was used, according to military reports. Will the Prime Minister call for an end to profit in the care of our seniors?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, the contents of that report were deeply disturbing and troubling for all Canadians. That is why we are committed to working with the provinces to fix this situation. Ontarians and indeed people right across the country are deeply preoccupied by what they've seen going on. We need to fix this, and we will do that together.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: The military report found that cockroaches and flies were present and that food was rotten. Will the Prime Minister call for national standards so that long-term care is governed by the same principles as the Canada Health Act?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, our priority right now is ensuring that we are supporting the provinces in their need to make sure that all seniors are protected right across the country in all those institutions. Going forward, we absolutely will need to have more conversations about how we can ensure that every senior across the country is properly supported.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: The military report found that respecting the dignity of patients was not a priority. Will the Prime Minister call for national standards and for long-term care to be governed by the same principles as the Canada Health Act?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, all Canadians know we need to do better by our seniors. This is something we all take very seriously, and all orders of government will work together to make sure that right now, and going forward, we improve our systems. The federal government will be there to work with the provinces on making that happen.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister has said that he's willing to work with the provinces. I'm saying that we need to see federal leadership. We need a commitment at the federal level that the Prime Minister will push for things that people need, which is to remove profit from long-term care and to establish national standards. Will the Prime Minister go beyond working with provinces and show some leadership?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, I will always be here to stand up for Canadians in all different situations. We are going to work with the provinces, fully respecting jurisdictions, to make sure that, all across the country, Canadians in long-term care are supported as required and receive the services and the care they deserve.
The Chair: Mr. Singh, we have 30 seconds. Ask a brief question, please.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Thank you very much. The COVID-19 crisis should not be used as an excuse to avoid presenting solutions to the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls committee, in particular by delaying action on the calls for justice. This is the same government that would not recognize it as a genocide, the same government that delayed the United Nations declaration legislation and the same government that is still taking indigenous kids to court. Will this government commit to core funding for indigenous services to help women and girls and ensure that the calls for justice are implemented without delay?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, we continue to work very closely with partners on the calls for justice even as we act in many areas, including better funding for shelters and for victims of domestic violence. We will continue to work with those partners, but people will understand that many of those partners are very focused right now on helping front-line workers, not on establishing the report. We will continue to work with them on the report, but the COVID-19 situation has made that more difficult.
The Chair: I want to thank the honourable members who are shouting time, but I do have a timer here, and I am taking care of it. I appreciate the help, but I do want to remind them that I have the proper machinery here. We will now go to Mr. Bezan.
Mr. James Bezan: Thank you, Chair. My question is to the Prime Minister. He was just talking about the tragic conditions in long-term care facilities in Ontario, and there was a report out from Quebec today. I want to commend the Canadian Armed Forces for witnessing these appalling conditions, putting it in the context of a report, and providing care to our loved ones in these long-term care facilities. The government is saying they didn't receive the report from the department until May 22, but this report came out on May 14. What happened to that report for eight days?
The Chair: We will go to the honourable minister. We seem to have a technical issue, Mr. Sajjan. We can't hear you. You might want to put down your bar and keep it down while you're speaking.
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan (Minister of National Defence): Mr. Chair, I want to thank our Canadian Armed Forces members for the tremendous work they are doing. They did their duty, noted down their observations and reported them. While those observations were being reported directly to the managers, a report was being compiled. This report was given to me on the 21st. I then forwarded it to the Minister of Public Safety on the 22nd, and that report was then given to the provincial authorities very quickly afterwards.
Mr. James Bezan: I trust that you got the report on the 21st, but the report was written on the 14th, so what happened with that report for seven days? Why wasn't it acted upon? Could you just explain that? Our loved ones were at risk during that entire time.
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan: Mr. Chair, as we stated, this report was done and given up through the chain of command, and the appropriate leadership did their due diligence. Once we received this report, it was forwarded to the appropriate authorities. Again, I want to commend our Canadian Armed Forces members for not only the tremendous work they are doing but also for doing their duty.
Mr. James Bezan: That report from Ontario documented appalling conditions, horrific care that was being given to the clients, and also the way that the staff conducted themselves. We know that there are 39 members of the Canadian Armed Forces currently infected with COVID-19. Minister, do you believe that the infection could have been transmitted from staff to our soldiers serving in long-term care facilities because proper protocols were not being followed?
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan: Mr. Chair, when it comes to any type of activities that we send our Canadian Armed Forces on, we do our due diligence to make sure that we have the right protocols in place and the appropriate training. This is why we have taken the time to make sure our folks not only did the appropriate training but had the appropriate equipment. We have the right protocols in place, and we will make sure that our members who are infected by COVID will get the appropriate treatment as well.
Mr. James Bezan: Does the Minister of National Defence believe that our soldiers serving in Operation Laser, who have put themselves in harm's way in battling the COVID virus as a war, deserve to have hazard pay benefits?
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan: Mr. Chair, when it comes to looking after Canadian Armed Forces personnel, yes, we are actually in the process as we speak of making sure that our members have the appropriate hazard pay. This is currently being drafted, and we will have more to say on this shortly.
Mr. James Bezan: I hope that means it's a yes. I do encourage the government to provide that compensation to our soldiers and troops serving in Operation Laser. I would finally like to come back to the issue of the timeline from May 14 to May 21, when that report was in the department for one week. Under our parliamentary system, ministers are accountable for the conduct of their departments. Will the minister take responsibility for that report sitting on someone's desk for seven days and not being turned over to the proper authorities?
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan: Mr. Chair, I want to make it very clear: When it comes to the observations that were made, those were immediately reported to the appropriate management of the care facilities and to the appropriate links within the province. At the same time, this report was being compiled and pushed up to the chain of command, and they did their due diligence. As I stated, it was given to us, and on the same day it was forwarded to the Minister of Public Safety, who immediately then sent it to the provincial authorities.
Mr. James Bezan: Was one of those authorities that this was sent to the RCMP?
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan: Mr. Chair, as stated, this will not only be given to the proper authorities but the appropriate steps will be taken now.
The Chair: We'll now go to Ms. Falk. Ms. Falk.
Mrs. Rosemarie Falk (BattlefordsLloydminster, CPC): Thank you, Chair. Yesterday it was revealed that the Minister of Digital Government has been promoting a fundraising campaign to sue Global News for their story criticizing the Chinese Communist Party. Why is the minister using her authority to support the Communist Party of China and threatening our media and freedom of expression?
Hon. Joyce Murray (Minister of Digital Government): Mr. Chair, we value the important work of media right across the country. Attacking the integrity of hard-working journalists is simply not acceptable. Like many members on all sides of the House.... WeChat is a social media platform used to engage and share information with
The Chair: Now we'll go back to Ms. Falk. Ms. Falk.
Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Is the minister aware of the efforts that the United Front carries out on behalf of the Chinese Communist Party to influence how Canadians view the People's Republic of China?
Hon. Joyce Murray: Thank you for that question. Mr. Chair, I want to just be clear. The participation in the WeChat group, much like Facebook, is guided by posted
The Chair: We'll now go back to Ms. Falk.
Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Is the minister an active participant in the efforts by the Communists to muzzle a Canadian journalist and deprive Canadians of the facts about China?
Hon. Joyce Murray: Muzzling journalists is never acceptable, and our government is very clear on that. I will say that the individual in question posted something outside of the guidelines of my WeChat group and is no longer
The Chair: We'll now go back to Ms. Falk. Ms. Falk, I just want to point out that we do have interpreters listening and trying to interpret. They'd appreciate it....
Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: My questions are short. That's probably what it is.
The Chair: Take a deep breath.
Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Chair, the Liberals can't shrug this off. The minister admitted to theBreaker that her own political staff manages this WeChat. This is someone who is paid by Canadian taxpayers. Why is the minister using tax dollars to help China attack Global News and freedom of expression?
Hon. Joyce Murray: I think the member knows very well that the people who post on WeChat are free to post what they choose within certain guidelines. Those guidelines were ignored. That person is no longer part of my WeChat group. The post was completely unacceptable, and I do not share the views of the individual.
Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Chair, Sam Cooper is an investigative Canadian journalist who has uncovered many different criminal rackets that can be linked back to Beijing. Has the minister apologized to Sam Cooper for attempting to shut down his work?
Hon. Joyce Murray: As we all know, community outreach is a very important part of the work of a member of Parliament. WeChat is one of many social media sites regularly used by members
The Chair: We go back to Ms. Falk.
Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Chair, when will the minister apologize to Sam Cooper and Global News?
Hon. Joyce Murray: Mr. Chair, I have been very clear that I do not share the views of the person who posted on my WeChat site, who operated outside of my
The Chair: We'll now go back to Ms. Falk.
Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Chair, in December 2018 the Liberals passed Bill C-76. This included provisions to prevent foreign interference in Canadian society. Does the government believe that Joyce Murray's actions have violated this portion of the act?
Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness): Mr. Chair, I want to assure the member that we are always vigilant in any foreign interference in our national security or issues of political interference in our society. It's monitored carefully by the national security establishment, according to the law as it exists in this country, and we will remain vigilant.
Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Chair, in May 2019, the Liberals launched their digital charter. One of the principles was strong democracy, a commitment to defend freedom of expression. Will the Liberals hold Joyce Murray's WeChat accountable if it has violated this part of the charter?
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, we are absolutely committed to the rule of law and will always uphold it. I think, as the minister has made very clear, she was not involved in this process and has no control over the individual who posted that matter.
Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Chair, unfortunately I don't believe that was a sufficient answer. This is really a yes or no. Will the government hold Joyce Murray's WeChat accountable if it has violated their part of the charter?
Hon. Bill Blair: Again, Mr. Chair, I want to assure the member that our government remains committed to the rule of law and we will always work tirelessly to uphold the laws of this country.
Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Is that a yes or a no?
Hon. Bill Blair: Again, I think it was very clear. We will always uphold the laws of Canada.
Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Still, was that a yes or a no? I'm not hearing a yes or a no.
Hon. Bill Blair: I am doing my very best, Mr. Chair, to answer the question for the House and to assure the member opposite that our government will always remain committed to the rule of law. That is unequivocal.
The Chair: We will now move on to the honourable member. The floor is yours, Mr.Deltell.
Mr. Grard Deltell (Louis-Saint-Laurent, CPC): Thank you, Mr.Chair. I am very happy and proud to be participating in this discussion in the House of Commons today. My question is very simple: how much is Canada's deficit?
Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance): Mr.Chair, we continue to be transparent with our measures. Of course, we want to make sure that our investments, our economy
The Chair: The floor is yours, Mr.Deltell.
Mr. Grard Deltell: Let me ask my question to the honourable Minister of Finance once more, since he is talking about transparency. My question is really simple: how much is Canada's deficit?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, our economic situation is very fluid. We have made major investments and we are making sure that our economy is working.
Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr.Chair, the minister's answer is not fluid at all. But the question is really simple: how much is Canada's deficit?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, it is important to be transparent with our investments. We look at the investments and the figures every day.
Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr.Chair, the Minister of Finance may not know what the deficit is, but one great Canadian does know. And he knows that he knows. Could the Minister of Finance be very clear, very fluid and, above all, very transparent with Canadians? What is Canada's deficit?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, I want to be very clear with Canadians: our economic situation is very difficult. The situation is fluid. We are making investments to ensure that our economy will be strong in the future.
Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr.Chair, with all due respect to the Minister of Finance, let me point out that, though he is not very clear, Canada's Parliamentary Budget Officer was clear yesterday. The deficit is $260billion. That is the real number. Why does the government not have the courage to state it clearly, as the Parliamentary Budget Officer did yesterday?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, we always want to be clear and transparent. It is very important for the situation to be stable in order to ensure our future. That is our economic approach. We are making investments now so that the situation becomes more stable.
Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr.Chair, I know that the Minister of Finance is very good with figures. But he is not able to give us one. Perhaps he could comment on the statement that the Parliamentary Budget Officer made yesterday, that the emergency assistance must have an end date, and if it does not, we are heading to levels of taxation that have not been seen in this country for generations. What is the government going to do to make sure that Canadians will not be overtaxed after this crisis?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, we think it's very important to make investments. That way, we will have a resilient economy in the future. That's very important. That way, we know that we'll have a good economy in the future. When we have more information, we will
The Chair: Mr.Deltell, you have the floor.
Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr.Chair, will the minister commit not to raise taxes after the crisis?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, I have said several times that we do not have a plan to raise taxes. That's very important.
Mr. Grard Deltell: Finally a clear answer! However, I'm not convinced that he will apply it. In fact, the Parliamentary Budget Officer himself has said that there isn't much ammunition left without shifting into a large structural deficit, which can lead directly to tax increases. If the Minister of Finance can't even say today what the deficit is today, how can he be credible when he says that he won't raise taxes?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, I think what's most important is that during this pandemic, Canadians and companies across the country need the Government of Canada's help. That is our approach. That way, we will have an economy that will function in the future. Of course, this is important for future generations.
Mr. Grard Deltell: When will there be an economic update?
Hon. Bill Morneau:
Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr.Chair, all observers are expecting an economic update to know where we're going. When will that happen?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, we want our economic update to be accurate. That's why we are looking at information that allow us to make good forecasts.
The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Hoback.
Mr. Randy Hoback (Prince Albert, CPC): Mr. Chair, the United States, Australia, India, Japan, New Zealand, South Korea and Vietnam have created an economic prosperity group to diversify some of their key supply chains away from China. Canada has a free trade agreement with six of these seven countries. Why are we not part of this group?
Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade): Mr. Chair, I thank the hon. member for that question. Indeed, we have been working diligently with all of these countries to make sure that we are keeping global supply chains open during this critical time. I think everyone agrees that keeping supply chains open for medical goods, critical agriculture and essential goods is absolutely essential and
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Hoback.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr. Chair, this government is refusing to come to terms with what COVID-19 will mean for the future of international trade. Why is Canada not at the table with our largest trading partner protecting the viability of our international supply chains and capitalizing on the opportunities of others doing the same?
The Chair: Before we go to the minister, one of the members has his mike still on, and I would ask that he turn it off. I am hearing background noise. The hon. minister.
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, Canada has unprecedented access to a number of markets around the world because of the extraordinary agreements that we have made to provide access to customers in those international markets. During COVID-19, we have been working with our G20 partners. I have had two meetings with G20 trade ministers on the importance of keeping supply chains
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Hoback.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr. Chair, is this payback for the Prime Minister snubbing these countries at the original TPP signing?
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, we have a CPTPP arrangement with these countries, and we are looking forward to making sure that we get Canadian businesses growing into those markets.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr. Chair, the U.K. will begin applying tariffs at the beginning of next year on Canadian exports such as seafood, beef and cars. These are the items that have had tariffs removed under CETA. Will the government commit to having a new trade agreement with the U.K. in place by January 1?
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, we are monitoring the situation very carefully. The U.K., of course, is a very important trading partner for Canada. They are in discussions right now. I want to assure Canadian businesses that CETA continues to apply to our trade with the U.K. during this period while they go through Brexit.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr. Chair, after CUSMA, this government guaranteed to the trade committee that they would publish the objectives of any new trade agreement. When will we see these objectives published and actually have a chance to view them?
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, we look forward to working to ensure that those objectives are published as we get into future trade discussions.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr. Chair, the resignation of the WTO director-general at this unprecedented time is concerning for the international trade community. Is the government committed to supporting a DG candidate who is dedicated to the massive reforms needed to get the WTO functioning again?
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, I want to thank the hon. member for that good question. The Ottawa group, led by Canada, is working with like-minded countries on the reform of the WTO. We've been doing this work and we continue to do this work. I look forward to making sure that we are leading the way on those discussions with like-minded
The Chair: Mr. Hoback.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr. Chair, last week the President of the United States considered blocking cattle imports. Our beef producers don't need this. They need stability. Three-quarters of Canada's beef cattle exports go to the U.S. Has the government sought out and received assurances from the United States that no such action will apply to Canadian cattle?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): Mr. Chair, we have an excellent assurance of our trade with the United States, which is our new NAFTA trade agreement that we have negotiated, thanks to the unprecedented co-operation across this country. It is very important to the Canadian economy and Canadian producers.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr. Chair, going forward post-COVID, there are a lot things that will be changing in supply chains. What is this government doing proactively to look at opportunities in these supply chains that Canadian businesses can take advantage of?
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, we continue to work with countries around the globe to ensure that Canada's supply chains and those global supply chains, particularly for essential goods, for agricultural products, for medical supplies, continue to remain open. We will keep doing this work.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr. Chair, on the agriculture side, canola farmers would like to know the status of canola going into China. Can she update the House on that status?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food): Mr.Chair, I want to assure my colleague that we are continuing to work with our industry representatives, our allies and our trading partners in China.
The Chair: We'll now go to Ms. McLeod.
Mrs. Cathy McLeod (KamloopsThompsonCariboo, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Senior Canadian bureaucrats received very credible reports in early January that China was procuring and hoarding PPE. As a member of cabinet, was the health minister aware?
Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health): Mr. Chair, from the very beginning of the outbreak in early January we were aware of the challenges our health sector would face, and we immediately began to work with the provinces and territories to understand what the need would be and how we could best prepare.
Mrs. Cathy McLeod: In April, the minister stated there were not enough supplies in the national emergency stockpile. Can she explain why she approved a donation of 16 tonnes of PPE for China on January 31, claiming it would not compromise our supply? She can't have it both ways. We don't have enough; we have enough and it won't compromise it.
Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement): Mr. Chair, we are operating in a highly competitive global environment, and the reality is that we need to make sure we have multiple complementary supply chains operating at the same time, which we have been doing in the past weeks and months, to ensure our front-line health care workers have the supplies they need to keep Canadians safe. That's our priority. That's what we're working on.
Mrs. Cathy McLeod: Unfortunately, this question was directed to the health minister, referencing things she actually stated in terms of the availability of our supplies. Before the she signed off on the donationand it was the health minister who signed off on the donationdid she consult with the health ministers in the provinces and territories?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, as the member opposite knows, provinces and territories have their own stockpiles, which of course they use to prepare for incidences of outbreak and other illnesses across their jurisdictions. We've worked very closely with the provinces and territories since the beginning of the outbreak to make sure we can provide any particular additional support. In fact, of all the requests made so far, we have been able to complete them.
Mrs. Cathy McLeod: Health care workers are now having to look at modified full-face snorkels as an alternative to N95 masks. Did it not occur to the minister that our hospitals and care homes could have used that PPE she shipped out, providing a longer opportunity for them to also get procurement done?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, as the member opposite knows, the equipment that was donated when China was in its outbreak was an important donation of nearly expired or expired goods that it was in desperate need of in its effort to try to contain the virus. As the member opposite knows, we've been able to work successfully with provinces and territories to ensure they have what they need.
Mrs. Cathy McLeod: Mr. Chair, I would suggest that during February and March our hospitals would have consumed that almost-expired product very efficiently, but I want to move on to another topic. When defending the sale of 22 seniors' homes to the Chinese government, the Prime Minister stated that we have a strong regulatory regime that imposes rigorous standards. He said that this regime ensures the care our seniors get is top quality. That was in 2017. Now he states he is saddened, shocked, disappointed and angered. Was the Prime Minister completely oblivious to the risks, or was he just too anxious to please the Chinese government when he sold those 22 homes?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, the homes the member opposite is referring to are in the province of B.C., and I have to commend the province for the early work it did to protect seniors in those long-term care homes. The member opposite is trying to confuse the issue. As she knows, the review we did was entirely separate from the standards to which the province holds the care homes.
Mrs. Cathy McLeod: The Prime Minister does not have authority over seniors' homes, which he has clearly stated, but he does have authority over the act in which he approved the sale. At 18 months, government had an obligation to make sure there was compliance. Was that done?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, the long-term care homes in each province fall within the jurisdiction of their own particular act, and those provinces and territories are responsible for fulfilling the inspections required under that act.
Mrs. Cathy McLeod: Under the Investment Canada Act, the government is obligated to review the sale for compliance. Four homes had to close. Since the government approved the sale, it is complicit in the care of our seniors in this country
Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry): Mr. Chair, I want to make it very clear that we understand how difficult this is for seniors. That is why we follow the appropriate steps, outlined under the Investment Canada Act, to make sure that any measures we take keep seniors and their well-being first and foremost.
The Chair: Mr.Therrien, you now have the floor.
Mr. Alain Therrien (La Prairie, BQ): Mr.Chair, during the pandemic, the government has given money to companies that don't pay a cent in tax because they use tax havens. We told the government that it didn't make sense. The government's response was that it is no big deal. During the pandemic, the government gave money to Air Canada, but Air Canada never reimbursed customers who did not get the services they paid for. We told the government that it did not make sense. The government's response was that it was no big deal. During the pandemic, the Liberal Party used the emergency wage subsidy to fund partisan activities. We told them that it did not make sense. The government responded that it was no big deal. Is the moral of the story that the government thinks that dipping into the pockets of taxpayers to spend money carelessly is no big deal?
Hon. Diane Lebouthillier (Minister of National Revenue): Mr.Chair, the fight against tax evasion is a priority for our government. We will continue to target companies that use tax evasion schemes. Let me be clear: in everything we do, we will target companies and not innocent workers. Employees are employees, no matter who they work for.
Mr. Alain Therrien: Mr.Chair, when I see that it's the Minister of National Revenue answering me, I don't feel like buying a lottery ticket. The Liberal Party used two airplanes in its last election campaign, which seems to indicate that it isn't short of money. However, the Liberals used the emergency wage subsidy. Why? Is it because they want taxpayers to fund a third airplane?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, we think it's very important to protect employees across the country and in every economic sector that's experiencing a significant drop in income. That's the approach we've taken to protect people and to ensure that there will be jobs in the future. We will continue this approach.
Mr. Alain Therrien: It's especially important to protect the employees who work for the Liberals to ensure their re-election, yet the Liberal Party has raised more than $7million since the last election. Is the party in jeopardy? Can it go bankrupt?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, as I said, our approach is to protect employees. We think that this principle is very important and that this approach must be maintained in order to have a better job market in the future.
Mr. Alain Therrien: Mr.Chair, we still don't know exactly how much money the Liberals took from the cookie jar. We think they may have taken as much as $1million. How many SMEs could have been saved with the $1million that the Liberals took out of the jar and took away from SMEs?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, we appreciate the question. We are protecting hundreds of thousands of SMEs through the emergency wage subsidy, the Canada emergency response benefit and all our programs. We will continue this approach to help SMEs and their employees.
Mr. Alain Therrien: Mr.Chair, I will propose a choice of answers, or I won't get any. When did the government decide to use the emergency wage subsidy? Now here are three possible answers. The first possible answer is that when the Liberals brought in the emergency wage subsidy, they set parameters allowing them to use it. The second is that when the Liberals saw the Conservative Partywhich is as rich as they are, but also sanctimonious and self-righteoustake advantage of the subsidy, they thought they could do it too. The third possible answer is that the Liberals hadn't planned to use the subsidy, but they pounced on the cookie jar when they saw it, because that's what they do.
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, we continue to think it is very important to protect employees in every sector of the economy and across Canada. That's our approach, and I believe it's the right one to protect and preserve jobs across the country during a pandemic.
The Chair: We are now going to suspend the proceedings for a few seconds to allow the employees who provide support for the meeting to replace each other safely.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC)): We will now resume the discussion. We'll continue with Ms. Khalid, the honourable member for MississaugaErin Mills.
Ms. Iqra Khalid (MississaugaErin Mills, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be splitting my time with the member for PickeringUxbridge. Mr. Chair, when the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces stepped in to provide support to five long-term care homes in Ontario at the request of the premier, they released a report that outlined their findings in detail. Military members witnessed residents' cries for help going unanswered. They saw force-feeding. They saw bug infestations, a lack of personal protective equipment and neglect. Canadians are shaken. They are appalled by the horrific conditions outlined in the military report. Almost 1,000 seniors so far have lost their lives in long-term care homes in Ontario alone, over 25 of them in my riding of MississaugaErin Mills. These deaths could have been prevented. Can the Minister of Health please update the House on how our federal government is working with the provinces and territories to prevent further tragic occurrences from happening at long-term care homes and to ensure that our most vulnerable seniors are properly looked after and cared for?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, it's such an important question. I believe all Canadians were deeply horrified to read the details from the Canadian Armed Forces on the conditions in long-term care homes in Ontario. What's happening to seniors in Ontario is completely unacceptable. The report is very troubling. Seniors deserve to live with dignity, with respect and with safety. While long-term care is provincially regulated, we know that we need to work together. The Government of Canada stands ready to support provinces and territories as they continue to respond to this crisis. I had a very good conversation with my provincial and territorial counterparts last night about the work we can do at a national level to support their important work. We also know that seniors want to stay at home longer. That's why our historic investment of $6 billion in home care was so important. We'll continue to work with the provinces and territories to ensure that they get the care and dignity they deserve.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll go now to Ms. O'Connell.
Ms. Jennifer O'Connell (PickeringUxbridge, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will sadly report that my community of Pickering has experienced the largest number of deaths at a single COVID-19 outbreak location anywhere in this country. Seventy residents at Orchard Villa long-term care home died during this pandemic. It was a devastating blow to our community. Yesterday, we received the horrific report from the Canadian Armed Forces detailing what they witnessed at Orchard Villa in Pickering, Altamont Care Community in Scarborough, Eatonville Care Centre in Etobicoke, Hawthorne Place in North York, and Holland Christian Homes' Grace Manor in Brampton. The loved ones of those who have passed away, as well as the homes' workers, have asked for a full public inquiry from the Ontario government. I know that the responsibility for these facilities falls within provincial jurisdiction, but on behalf of our communities, can the Minister of Health update us on the work she is doing to ensure that the Ontario government takes action immediately and initiates a full, independent, non-partisan public inquiry and reverses its decision to create a government-led commission that won't even start until September?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, I would say that all Canadians were shocked and horrified to hear about the conditions that existed in these particular care homes. We're so grateful to the members of the armed forces who not only improved conditions but also reported them quickly and appropriately to ensure amelioration of those conditions for those particular individuals. We also know that there are seniors all across the country who are struggling with care and with the appropriate level of care. We have to do better as a country. These are our loved ones. These are our parents and our grandparents. These are the people in our lives who have given so much to us. I stand committed to working with my provincial and territorial counterparts to ensure that we do better as a society. We know that there's a role we can play at the federal level with advice, with guidance, with support and, yes, with investments. We look forward to having those conversations about how best we can improve the care for all seniors amongst us.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll go now to Mr. Davies from Vancouver Kingsway.
Mr. Don Davies (Vancouver Kingsway, NDP): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Canadians were horrified to hear the report yesterday from our armed forces about the appalling conditions experienced by seniors in our long-term care homes. Page after page detailed the filth, neglect, abuse and danger our seniors in care are exposed to on a daily basis. Shockingly they face injury and death through missed medications, expired medications, unsterile devices and violations of basic contagion rules to stop the spread of COVID-19. Given that evidence of possible criminal conduct was contained in the military's report, will the minister refer this matter to the RCMP for investigation immediately?
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, thanks very much to the member for those expressions of concern, which we share. We understand in long-term care facilities both seniors and persons living with a disability face unique challenges, and the findings of this report are in fact deeply concerning and completely unacceptable. Considering the severity of this report, we promptly shared it with the Province of Ontario, and the Province of Ontario has initiated an investigation based on the report's findings. Their investigation includes alerting the province's chief coroner who has the authority to alert the police of jurisdiction. We will continue to work with the province to protect those living in long-term care facilities, and we continue to support them through the deployment of our outstanding Canadian Armed Forces and in our partnership with the Red Cross.
Mr. Don Davies: Mr. Chair, that's a shocking answer considering there's clear evidence of criminal conduct and negligence in this. That this federal government is not taking immediate steps to refer this to the nation's RCMP is unacceptable. The seniors care crisis is a national problem. COVID-19 has exposed critical vulnerabilities across Canada's entire network of long-term care facilities. Not a single province or territory currently meets the benchmark of 4.1 hours of hands-on care per day. As a result Canada has the worst record of COVID-19 deaths in long-term care among 14 comparable countries, with over 80% of Canadian fatalities occurring in these facilities. Will this government move swiftly to establish binding national standards for long-term care?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, the member opposite is exactly correct when he says that those who are hardest hit in terms of losing their lives and the negative effects of COVID are those who are living in long-term care homes. He's also correct when he indicates that COVID-19 has shown us what many of us have known for a long time, that we need to do better in long-term care and supports for seniors. As the member knows, we started those steps some four years ago or so when we began to make incredible investments in aging at home. We know that is one part of the solution, but we have to do better for those seniors who need a higher level of care. That's the work I'm doing now. I'm working with my colleagues at the provinces and territories to make sure that we come up with a solution that will truly result in better standards for all.
Mr. Don Davies: Mr. Chair, what we need is binding national standards, just like we set through the Canada Health Act in the health care sector generally. Gross fecal contamination, filthy medical equipment, insect infestations, ignoring patient cries for hourswe would never tolerate these conditions in Canada's hospitals. There's no reason to accept them in Canada's long-term care facilities. Will the minister move to bring long-term care facilities under the Canada Health Act, or similar legislation, with formal funds tied to acceptable standards of care for our seniors, just like we do for hospitals?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, the member shares the disgust and concern of so many Canadians across the country, not only those who have read the report but many of those who have struggled to provide care to elders in those long-term care homes, regardless of the province in which they live. We know we need to do better. We know that collectively, at all levels of government, we must do better for those people who cared for us and nurtured us all of those years. The member has my commitment that I will work with provinces and territories to find a solution forward to ensure that every person has the right to age with dignity and safety.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr. Davies, you have 15 seconds for another question, a short one, and leave time for a response.
Mr. Don Davies: Thank you, Mr. Chair. These failures are the product of systemic neglect often motivated by prioritizing profit over the provision of adequate care. Does the minister agree that we should not be putting profits above the health care needs of Canada's seniors?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, I believe that, when we commit to taking care of people, we must do so with the utmost care that is required. I know that provinces and territories have a lot of work to do. So do we, at the federal level, and obviously at the local level. We must all work together to protect those people in our lives who are most vulnerable, whether they be seniors, children or others.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will now move on to Mr. Schmale, HaliburtonKawartha LakesBrock. Mr. Schmale, go ahead.
Mr. Jamie Schmale (HaliburtonKawartha LakesBrock, CPC): Thank you, Chair. According to Vaughn Palmer in an editorial in the Vancouver Sun regarding the secret Wet'suwet'en deal, Palmer writes: The hereditary chiefs calculated the two governments would sign despite the objections from the elected chiefs. They likewise got the terms they wanted in the MOU while giving up absolutely nothing. Just as they figured governments would keep the contents secret from the public. Can the minister describe another situation in which the federal government negotiated a secret deal of this magnitude with unelected people?
Hon. Carolyn Bennett (Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations): I thank the member for his ongoing concern and I want to remind him that actually it is in keeping with the Supreme Court decision of 1997 that we were to now begin those conversations with the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs who took the case to the Supreme Court. As we've said many times, this is not an agreement; this is an MOU that establishes the path forward for the substantive discussions towards a final agreement, which would describe the future governance and the implementation of Wet'suwet'en rights and title. It is about a shared commitment.
Mr. Jamie Schmale: Mr. Chair, if it is a shared commitment, why on the eve of the signing ceremony did the four elected chiefs denounce the hereditary chiefs for keeping them in the dark?
Hon. Carolyn Bennett: Again, it's really important that the member understand that there was a process for the hereditary chiefs to go back to their communities and discuss with them. Any agreement after the good work that will happen now would have to go back and seek the approval of all of the communities.
Mr. Jamie Schmale: Mr. Chair, the Burns Lake Band members are openly wondering if they're still a band or if the few unelected hereditary chiefs will control everything now. Minister, can you assure them that going forward you will honour their concerns and take the time to listen?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): I ask honourable members to still direct their questions through the chair. The honourable minister.
Hon. Carolyn Bennett: Actually, the honourable member knows that the next steps include the further and ongoing engagement by the Wet'suwet'en in their house groups and that will include the six elected chiefs of the Wet'suwet'en nation, their community members and many others. This is about going forward and making sure that any
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We go back to Mr. Schmale.
Mr. Jamie Schmale: Thank you, Chair. Cynthia Joseph, a chief councillor with the Hagwilget First Nation says the MOU between Ottawa, the province and the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs was only shared with her community members on May 9, two days after it was published in the media. Is this part of the open and transparent government all Canadians can expect of the Prime Minister?
Hon. Carolyn Bennett: Walking the path of reconciliation means that we work with our partners and there is a way that they do the work within their communities. It is going to be an agreement to begin the work, but any final agreement is going to have to be approved by all members of the nation in terms of developing a consensus for the agreement
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We go back to Mr. Schmale.
Mr. Jamie Schmale: Thank you, Chair. Does the minister have any concerns regarding claims by several former female hereditary chiefs that they were stripped of their hereditary status because they didn't agree with the men?
Hon. Carolyn Bennett: Again, it is going to be really important that the work take place within the Wet'suwet'en nation to determine their future governance, to determine their way of working with Canada and to make sure
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We go back to Mr. Schmale.
Mr. Jamie Schmale: Thank you, Chair. For some reason it seems to be a problem to stand up for these hereditary female chiefs who had their titles taken away. Does the minister plan on recognizing band council resolutions denying the authority of hereditary chiefs to sign any future agreements without consent of the elected chiefs and the 3,000 members within the Wet'suwet'en they represent?
Hon. Carolyn Bennett: I think the member must understand that, as we begin the work, the nation will do its work and then we will come to the table to determine what the governance would be. Will it be a hybrid model like at Heiltsuk, like Ktunaxa, like some of the communities developing their constitutions, developing their laws and deciding how they will determine their own governance and that partnership with Canada?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr.Paul-Hus.
Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus (CharlesbourgHaute-Saint-Charles, CPC): Thank you, Mr.Chair. The current restrictions on non-essential travel at the border do not prevent people from claiming refugee protection if they have family in Canada. Why is the minister refusing to allow married people to cross the border?
Hon. Bill Blair: I want to thank the honourable member for a very important question. We have heard from many constituents and members of Parliament from right across the country who are expressing concern about non-status spouses being denied entry into the country because their travel is deemed to be non-essential. I've recently been in touch with all of the provinces and territories because I think it's very important that we have their support for any changes
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr.Paul-Hus, you have the floor.
Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: If I understand correctly, Mr.Minister, you are talking to provincial representatives, but a case like that of ChantalTremblay, for instance, is unacceptable. For two months now, she has been trying to bring her spouse to Canada, but it isn't working. Is there a way to issue a directive to border services officers that married spousesit's often marriages with Americanscan cross the border to join their spouses in Canada?
Hon. Bill Blair: Just to be very clearagain, I thank the member opposite for the opportunity to clarify thisit is never our intention to separate families, but at the same time, we have imposed appropriate and necessary restrictions on non-essential travel. Our border services officers inquire of everyone coming to that border about the nature of their travel, and for non-citizens who come to that border seeking entry into Canada, if their entry is deemed non-essential, then they exercise their discretion not to allow
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr.Paul-Hus, you have the floor.
Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: Thank you, Mr.Chair. Information from the Canada Border Services Agency has just come out. Since March21, 425,000people have flown into Canada. Among them were 295,000Canadians, which isn't a problem. However, 100,000foreigners have entered Canada, even though the border is supposedly closed. How does the minister explain the fact that 100,000people arrived in Canada by plane?
Hon. Bill Blair: Again, I thank the member opposite for the opportunity to clarify. We have imposed very significant restrictions on non-essential travel, but of course there are circumstances where individuals come to this country and their entry into Canada is deemed essential. For example, someone who is providing medical services and coming into Canada to provide those services would be deemed essential, because there is a great need among Canadians for those services. It's dealt with on a case-by-case basis. As you can see by the numbers, we have had a very significant reduction in the travel of all non-Canadians to Canada over the past two months.
Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: So the minister confirms that the 100,000people who arrived by air were providing a service considered essential to Canada. I'm not talking about the people who crossed the land border, but the people who came to Canada by air.
Hon. Bill Blair: What I can tell you is that at all points of entry, including our air borders, we apply the standard that the travel must be deemed essential, and that determination is utilized to see if a person is eligible to enter into the country.
Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: We're now learning that the Correctional Service of Canada's investigation into the murder of MarylneLevesque is suspended due to the COVID-19 outbreak. Canadians aren't fooled; they know full well that it is a political decision. All the technological means are available to allow the investigation to continue. I'm proof of that today. Can the minister direct the Correctional Service of Canada to resume the investigation into the death of MarylneLevesque?
Hon. Bill Blair: Again, I thank the member for the question, because we know the concern of the people of Quebec, and the family of Ms. Levesque needs answers and deserves answers. That's why we asked the Parole Board and the Correctional Service of Canada to convene a board of investigation. Clearly, during COVID transmission, the ability to conduct that investigation and to interview all of the witnesses became extremely difficult and has been temporarily suspended, but at the very earliest opportunity we remain resolute to resume that investigation and get to the bottom of it to provide the answers that the family deserves.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr.Paul-Hus, you have only 20seconds remaining.
Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: Mr.Chair, victims of crime are one of the segments of the population most affected by the crisis. As we know, the government refuses to allow victims of crime to participate in parole hearings. For the first time in its history, and to add insult to injury, the government has cancelled all activities related to Victims and Survivors of Crime Week, which was to take place next week. Why is the Prime Minister turning his back on victims?
Hon. Bill Blair: Again, at the earliest days of COVID, until arrangements could be put in place, there were restrictions on victims participating. We have put the systems in place to allow victims to present their evidence virtually, either by video or by phone, to ensure that their voices are heard in these important things. We very much respect and support the role of victims in these determinations, and we're making every effort to ensure that they can participate.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now to Mr. Cumming, Edmonton Centre.
Mr. James Cumming (Edmonton Centre, CPC): Mr. Chair, yesterday I asked the Minister of Small Business how many business credit availability guarantees were issued by EDC, and I didn't get a number. Does she have an exact, finite, number of the guarantees today?
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, thank you to the honourable member for that question. Our government has taken swift and immediate action to support Canadian businesses through this time. Money from this program is flowing, and businesses across the country are receiving the important support that they need.
Mr. James Cumming: How many BCAP applications have been received so far?
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, these are large loans, and they require important due diligence and adjudication by the financial institutions. We will continue to be open and transparent as the accurate information becomes available.
Mr. James Cumming: How long does it take to be approved for a BCAP guarantee?
Hon. Mary Ng: I want to assure the member that we're going to do everything possible to support businesses and workers during this very important time.
Mr. James Cumming: How many businesses have received funding under the BCAP co-lending program since March?
Hon. Mary Ng: The lending programs, particularly the program to help small businesses, have really helped lots of businesses. Over 630,000 loans have been issued, and this is really helping those
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We go back to Mr. Cumming.
Mr. James Cumming: Unfortunately, lots is not an answer for the businesses that I'm trying to talk to. Can you tell me, for the CEBA changes that were recently announced, when will we be able to see people who have income through a dividend able to apply?
Hon. Mary Ng: That's a very important question, Mr. Chair. There's nothing more important to me and to our government than getting these supports out to businesses. Those small businesses that will meet the expanded CEBA criteria are working very diligently with the financial institutions to make sure that they can get access to those loans as quickly as possible.
Mr. James Cumming: Can the minister give me a day when that will happen?
Hon. Mary Ng: The financial institutions are working very hard to make sure that they can make this available to businesses.
Mr. James Cumming: When will a sole proprietor be able to go for those loans?
Hon. Mary Ng: We will work very hard and very diligently to make sure that these businesses and those sole proprietors are supported.
Mr. James Cumming: Could they go on Monday?
Hon. Mary Ng: There is nothing more important than making sure these businesses weather the difficult time of COVID-19, and our measures are
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll go back to Mr. Cumming.
Mr. James Cumming: How about Tuesday?
Hon. Mary Ng: I think we will all agree that getting support to these businesses is absolutely crucial. Our commitment is always going to be to get support to these businesses.
Mr. James Cumming: I can't get a distinct answer on any of those questions. Can you tell me how much headroom is left on the CEBA program?
Hon. Mary Ng: Today, over 630,000 businesses have received the support to do things like pay for salaries, the 25% top-up for the wage subsidy, pay for rent and pay for insurance and utilities. This is what these loans are helping our small
Mr. James Cumming: How many dollars are left in the program so businesses can have some certainty that the program will be available for some time?
Hon. Mary Ng: I think you will see that the businesses across the country that I have talked to really appreciate that the government has stepped up to help them during this difficult time. These include women with businesses, indigenous-owned businesses and those small businesses all across our communities, all across the country, that are getting the necessary help. We are going to keep
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll go back to Mr. Cumming.
Mr. James Cumming: How many dollars? It can't be that complicated. How many dollars?
Hon. Mary Ng: There are 630,000 businesses that are getting help, and thousands more businesses will be getting help with the expanded criteria. We're going to keep doing the work that we need to help our businesses across this country through this difficult time.
Mr. James Cumming: I heard from a constituent in my riding that they waited for over four hours on the portal for CECRA. Is there an issue with the portal, and if so, when will it be fixed?
Hon. Mary Ng: Making sure that businesses get the help for commercial rent support is absolutely crucial right now. We are going to endeavour to make sure that this help gets out to those small businesses. Applications have opened in a staggered way and
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): You have time for one last short question, Mr. Cumming.
Mr. James Cumming: Finally, the Prime Minister yesterday said that a list of all organizations that have been receiving CEWS will be made public. When will that be done?
Hon. Mary Ng: We have committed to making sure that those companies taking the wage subsidy program will be listed publicly. We have committed to doing that and we will do so.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We now go to Mr. d'Entremont from West Nova. Mr. d'Entremont, go ahead.
Mr. Chris d'Entremont (West Nova, CPC): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries, but I thought I would say this first. The Canadian Coast Guard is doing a search at this moment following the loss of a vessel off the coast of Newfoundland. From my community, which is a seafaring, fishing community, I just want to put my thoughts out there to the folks of Newfoundland. We are definitely thinking of them during this difficult time. My first question revolves around the lobster fishery. It's been open in Cape Breton since May 15, I believe. The weather has been good. The harvesters have been going at it every day. The price has dropped to $4.25 already. Unstable markets will probably cause it to drop even more. What is the minister doing to make sure the lobster industry survives?
Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank my colleague for his comments with regard to the tragic accident off the coast of Newfoundland and Labrador, where we saw the loss of life in a fishing accident. Of course, as coastal people, we are all in solidarity with the people of Newfoundland right now. We know that the fish and seafood sector has taken extreme hits because of COVID-19. We're working diligently to make sure we support the industry as best we can. We have made available over half a billion dollars to processors and harvesters to make sure they can weather this storm. We have made sure that the harvesters are able to access the harvester benefit as well as the grant, recognizing the unique nature of their business and how they are not able to access some of our other programs. We are continuing to monitor what is happening in the industry. We will continue to make sure we do everything we can to support the fish and seafood sector.
Mr. Chris d'Entremont: Mr. Chair, to continue along this vein for a moment, we are still looking at unstable markets for a longer period of time. At this point, processors are being selective in what they're buying. They're not buying culls and other kinds of lobsters. The plants are filling up, and harvesters are worried that they might stop buying product before the season is complete. What can the fishermen expect, or what kinds of programs can they expect, if the season goes bust?
Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr. Chair, we know that this is a very challenging season for our harvesters. We also know that because of the decline in markets, we've had to make accommodations for the processing sector in order to help them be better able to support the harvesters. We have put in $62.5 million, which is allowing the processors to increase capacity in their refrigeration and freezers so that they will continue to be able to purchase product. As I said earlier, we will continue to monitor the situation and make sure we do everything possible to support our harvesters. This is a very difficult
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll go back to Mr. d'Entremont.
Mr. Chris d'Entremont: Mr. Chair, I don't know whether this next question will go to the Minister of DFO or the Minister of Transport. Oakley Ryerson is a resident of West Nova. He is planning a career on the sea and wants to get his master class four. The problem is that he can't pass the eye exam. He needs full-colour vision. For those who are far-sighted or nearsighted, you just have to put on your glasses to correct it. You can actually fly airplanes. I don't know about space shuttles, but who knows? You can now wear colour-corrected lenses, but Transport Canada still does not recognize these for use. Can the Minister of Transport help Ryerson in attaining his chosen profession?
Hon. Marc Garneau (Minister of Transport): Mr. Chair, I appreciate the concern of my colleague for one of the residents in his riding. I would ask him to write to me and lay out the situation. We have medical standards with respect to a number of different kinds of transportation-related jobs for pilots, mariners and those kinds of occupations, which have to be respected. However, if he sends me the details, I will look into it personally.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr. d'Entremont, you have another 20 to 25 seconds left.
Mr. Chris d'Entremont: Mr.Chair, the eligibility criteria for financial support include the need to demonstrate a significant loss of income during the months of March and April, yet several SMEs in the tourism industry can't qualify because their operations start with the tourist season, in late May or early June. What will the government do to help them?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, before accessing the emergency wage subsidy, applicants must meet important criteria. However, as we explained last week, we will be adjusting the wage subsidy until the end of August, and we will be reviewing the criteria.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We're going to go to the west coast and the member for SaanichGulf Islands. Ms. May, go ahead.
Ms. Elizabeth May: Thank you, Mr. Chair. My question is with regard to the urgent problem of mental health crises across Canada. My colleague, Jenica Atwin from Fredericton, held a press conference this morning in which she used the term echo pandemic. We will face an echo pandemic. We're already seeing increases in suicides on southern Vancouver Island. My question to the minister is this: Will we see direct funding to community mental health services as urgently requested by the Canadian Mental Health Association?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, I read the honourable member's colleague's letter just today, and I want to reassure all members that we have invested in mental health supports for Canadians, obviously before the pandemic hit but certainly since we've been living with the pandemic. I'd like to remind all members to direct their constituents to the wellnesstogether.ca website and portal. There Canadians can find online resources, as well as connections to real and alive counsellors and other professionals who can help them with their various concerns.
Ms. Elizabeth May: This question relates to another current emergency: the climate emergency. This week it was reported that the concentration of greenhouse gases reached 417 parts per million. That's not just unprecedented over thousands of years; that's unprecedented over the last one million years. The temperatures in the Arctic broke 86F, 30C in the Arctic circle. The recognized parties in the House have established standing committees to work, but not the committee on the environment. We've asked for this in negotiations. When will the recognized parties remember the June 2019 emergency resolution that we are in a climate emergency, and start making sure that we hit 2020 commitments under the Paris Agreement to improve our targets?
Hon. Marc Garneau: Mr. Chair, I appreciate my colleague's questions. I will remind her that we have committed to net-zero emissions by 2050. We've also committed to surpassing the targets that we had originally set for 2030. We realize that along with the COVID pandemic, which is the major problem that exists in the world today, there is another problem as well that affects the entire planet, and that is the problem associated with climate change. We remain committed to achieving those targets.
Ms. Elizabeth May: My next question will be for Minister Blair, but as an aside, I will say that last answer completely fails to meet the legal requirements of the Paris Agreement to file a new target this year. To save some time, Minister Blair, let's pretend to go back to the questions from my colleague MP Paul-Hus and to your last answer. This is dealt with on a case-by-case basis by CBSA agents. There are thousands of them. They are exercising personal, subjective judgment. This is not acceptable. I'm begging the minister. Could the minister please put out a directive, advice to every CBSA agent on the ground, that when a non-status entry point sees a non-status direct relativehusband, wife, child of a Canadian citizenthat relative be deemed to be entering Canada for an essential purpose?
Hon. Bill Blair: I'd like to thank the member for bringing this issue forward again. It's an important one. We have been working very hard to ensure that we do everything possible to keep families together. At the same time, we've been working with the provinces and territories, listening to the concerns of Canadians about ensuring that travel across our international border, particularly with the United States, is limited to essential travel. As I've indicated, I've had a number of important conversations and necessary conversations with our provincial and territorial partners. I believe there is a consensus on the right way forward on this, and we're working very diligently to put it in place. I want to assure the member opposite that we have given very clear direction to our CBSA officers. I believe our border services officers have been doing an extraordinary job for us in the exercise of their discretion. At the same time, they have been doing the important work of ensuring the health and safety of Canadians at our border.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We're now going to Ms. Kwan for Vancouver East. Ms. Kwan, go ahead.
Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP): Four out of the five homes listed in the armed forces report were for-profit. It is painfully clear that corporate profits are being put ahead of the well-being of seniors. Will the minister admit that the for-profit model is failing our loved ones and commit to getting profits out of long-term care?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: As the member opposite notes, nobody can read that report or hear those stories without feeling absolute horror and disgust and without demanding better for the elders in our lives. As I have mentioned many times in the House, our government remains committed to working with provinces and territories to ensure that every elder person in our community can age with dignity and in safety.
Ms. Jenny Kwan: Minister, if that's the case, I will ask again. Will the minister make sure that the focus of long-term care homes is taking care of seniors and not taking care of owners' bank accounts?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: As the member will obviously know, long-term care remains in the jurisdiction of provinces and territories, and there is legislation that rules them as such. As the member also knows, we have stood by Ontario and all of the other provinces and territories throughout this outbreak. The Prime Minister has been very clear
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will go back to Ms. Kwan.
Ms. Jenny Kwan: Is the minister refusing to answer the question because she agrees that profit should come before care?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: I think it's unfortunate that the member is trying to place words in my mouth. What I do agree with, though, is that long-term care needs to be reformed, and I think all provinces and territories know, and all Canadians know, that we have to do a better job.
Ms. Jenny Kwan: It's simple for the minister. She can just answer the question. Is she willing to defend for-profit care for our seniors? Is she in favour of for-profit private health care too?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: What I am willing to defend is the right for all Canadians to age with safety and dignity.
Ms. Jenny Kwan: To the minister, what is the difference? Why sell out the care of our seniors? Will she commit that she will take profit out of long-term care?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, I think the member opposite knows that the only way to actually reform long-term care is to work with provinces and territories, in fact, all levels of government, to ensure that the people who spent their lives caring for and nurturing us can end their lives with caring and nurturing
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will go back to Ms. Kwan.
Ms. Jenny Kwan: I think the minister knows that what we need is national standards for seniors' care. The Revera long-term care homes are owned by the Public Sector Pension Investment Board. Since the government owns these homes, has the military been sent in there to see what's happening to seniors under their care?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, we know that it is important to work with all of the provinces and territories under whose jurisdiction it falls to protect the seniors within those care homes. That's what we've been doing since the beginning of the outbreak of the coronavirus, and that's what we'll continue to do to protect the lives of seniors and strengthen their protection. We will, as I said, Mr. Chair, work with the provinces and territories to have a longer-term plan so that all seniors can age with dignity and safety.
Ms. Jenny Kwan: The government has a clear responsibility here. What is the government doing to ensure the standards of care in these Revera homes that they own?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, as I have repeatedly said, the jurisdiction for care of long-term care homes falls within the provincial and territorial realm. However, that being said, Mr. Chair, we have been there for provinces and territories since the outbreak of the coronavirus, and as the member opposite has clearly or likely heard the Prime Minister say, we will stand with provinces and territories as all elders have the right to age with dignity
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We go back to Ms. Kwan.
Ms. Jenny Kwan: I didn't hear an answer, Mr. Chair, so the answer is nothing, then. Do you think that the families of the seniors in these homes want to hear those excuses about jurisdictional issues? Does the minister not think that the families want to hear that the federal government is doing all it can to care for their parents?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): I would remind the members to direct their questions through the chair. The honourable minister.
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Quite frankly, I don't think that families care which level of government is responsible for caring for their elders. I think what they care about is that their elders are cared for. That's in fact what the Prime Minister believes. That's in fact what our government believes, and that's why we have willingly stepped up to say to provinces and territories that we will be there with you to make sure that all seniors in our lives have the right to age with dignity and care.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will now give the floor to Mrs.Gill, from the riding of Manicouagan. Go ahead, Mrs.Gill.
Mrs. Marilne Gill (Manicouagan, BQ): Mr.Chair, my question is for the Prime Minister who, earlier, clearly told us that the government's assistance is intended for those who are most in need and most vulnerable. I come from a riding where a lot of people make their living from the tourism industry. I don't know if the PrimeMinister read the newspapers yesterday, but in Quebec, losses to the tune of $4billion are expected until March2021 in the tourism accommodation sector alone. The service sector will lose 93,000jobs. How can I justify to my constituents the fact that a political party, which does not need it, has already seen money from the emergency wage subsidy, when people in my riding don't yet have access to it because of the seasonal nature of their work? These people haven't seen the money that is available through these programs.
Hon. Bill Morneau: We think it is very important to protect the country's employees in all sectors of the economy. Through this approach, there will be more jobs after the pandemic, and the economic situation will be better. We will continue this approach.
Mrs. Marilne Gill: Mr.Chair, this is the wrong approach. They are saying that they are protecting the jobs of the Liberal Party of Canada, which does not need the money. I'll ask a question similar to the previous one. Fishers in my riding did not qualify for the emergency wage subsidy. Another program was created for them, which isn't quite the same and doesn't really meet their needs. A government whose political wingnot the parliamentary wingdoesn't really need money takes money from the fund, but leaves fishers to make do with less generous programs that don't meet their needs. What do I tell the fishers in my riding?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, we know that many sectors of the economy across the country are facing challenges. That's why we have adopted an approach with consistent criteria for all employees in all sectors. We have also introduced specific measures to help certain sectors, such as the fishing industry. We will continue our approach because we believe it's the best way to protect employees and our economy.
Mrs. Marilne Gill: Mr.Chair, I'm still not satisfied. The government is saying that the best way to proceed is to give money to the political wing of the Liberal Party of Canada, when there are people who are getting nothing. What am I supposed to tell seasonal workers, who have absolutely no assurances for their future? I can't go back to my riding and say I'm proud of the work the government is doing or our efforts in the House. It's true, the House is closed right now. I forgot. I have a very hard time accepting that the government is helping employees of the Liberal Party in preparation for the next election campaign, when communities in my region are dying because their economies revolve around a single industry. I can't tell them I'm not ashamed of what's going on as we speak.
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, we felt it was necessary to put emergency programs in place in response to the crisis during the pandemic. That is our approach. The emergency wage subsidy is a program that is clearly meant to ensure employees are protected and maintain their relationship with their employer. As for the Canada emergency response benefit, it means a lot to people who don't have a job. We are going to stick to our approach, which is to use consistent criteria to help all employees and all Canadians around the country struggling in any sector of the economy.
Mrs. Marilne Gill: Mr.Chair, I think the honourable Minister of Finance lives in an ivory tower. No, he is not protecting all jobs. No, he is not protecting all sectors of the economy. Once again, I will say that a party that doesn't need money has already received subsidies. However, people who need that money, people who are actually losing money or who don't know if they'll even be working this summer are getting zilch. There is absolutely no justifying that. I'd at least like to know whether the government is ashamed of what it's doing. When people have a conscience, eventually, they want to make up for their mistakes. Are the Liberals going to return that money? Is the finance minister going to help all sectors of the economy, including tourism, fisheries and seasonal industries?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, I'd like to thank the member for her question. Our approach is based on consistent criteria. The emergency wage subsidy is meant for any sector of the economy where revenues have dropped by 30% or more. The measure is hugely important for organizations that are really struggling, because we can protect their workers. We are also providing the Canada emergency response benefit to other employees, meaning, those who have lost their income because of COVID-19. Consequently, we will keep up our approach to ensure we continue to fare as well as possible and the economy works well after the pandemic.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Now we'll go to our last group of interventions, and that will be from Ms. Jansen in CloverdaleLangley City. Ms. Jansen, go ahead.
Mrs. Tamara Jansen (CloverdaleLangley City, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to begin with a shout-out to the brave waiters and waitresses at our local Earls restaurant and Browns Socialhouse, who have been opened again for on-site dining this week. Here in B.C. we're beginning to find our new normal, and it was great to see how small businesses have so quickly adapted their establishments to keep their workers and patrons safe while allowing people to get back to the business of living. You guys rock. Thanks for taking the lead. Mr. Chair, here in my riding I recently had contact with the mayor of Langley City who was wondering if I had any way of accessing personal protective gear, because our local firefighters were running out of stock. Then again yesterday, I spoke with one of our local homeless shelters that is also looking for PPE. Dr. Tam is telling all Canadians to wear masks in public, but I'm wondering if the Minister of Public Service and Procurement could tell us where exactly we're going to get all those masks with the current shortage.
Hon. Anita Anand: I want to be clear that our priority as a federal government has been to respond to provincial and territorial requests for PPE that goes to front-line health care workers. That is our priority, and we've been procuring goods aggressively in domestic and international markets. We are now actively also exploring ways in which we can assist broader organizations across the country with PPE needs, and that is something that I'll continue to update the House on as we go forward.
Mrs. Tamara Jansen: A Globe and Mail article revealed that government orders for N95 masks have steadily been dropping. We've gone from over 200 million ordered to 100 million, according to a federal source. Mr. Chair, the number of N95 masks ordered, as reported on the department's website, does continue to fall. Will the minister tell us why we seem to continue to struggle to supply PPE to Canadians?
Hon. Anita Anand: It is no secret that we are in a global competition for N95 masks and other supplies, so the Government of Canada's approach is to diversify supply chains internationally and build up and retool domestic industry so that we can have these supplies going forward. In terms of the numbers on our web page, we have short-term and long-term contracts in place
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We go back to Ms. Jansen.
Mrs. Tamara Jansen: Yes, I understand that a number of Chinese mask manufacturers have been nationalized, and products for Canadians have been confiscated by the CCP government. Is the drop in N95 orders due to, in actual fact, contracts being cancelled?
Hon. Anita Anand: On N95 masks, I would like to assure the member and the House that we have multiple contracts in place for the procurement of N95 masks, including with 3M in the United States, whose masks are crossing our border weekly over the next month.
Mrs. Tamara Jansen: That didn't quite answer my question. Have any of our orders been cancelled by the nationalization of these manufacturers in China?
Hon. Anita Anand: We have an aide in place in China. We have our embassy and other firms actively ensuring that our supplies from the manufacturing source make their way to the warehouse. Over 40 flights have come to Canada with those masks and other supplies. Our supply chains are operating despite the global environment being highly competitive.
Mrs. Tamara Jansen: We know many millions of N95 masks have arrived in Canada from China and have been substandard. What is the total number of substandard masks that have arrived?
Hon. Anita Anand: Mr. Chair, as previously explained to the House, about eight million masks did not meet spec by the Public Health Agency of Canada and have been repurposed to some extent in other areas of the system.
Mrs. Tamara Jansen: In a previous committee, the deputy minister advised us that Medicom was shoulder-tapped by the government to consider producing PPE. How many other companies did the government approach for this contract?
Hon. Anita Anand: We have operated in a very urgent way in order to procure supplies for front-line health care workers. We are now also moving to ensure that we have competitions run for the procurement of personal protective equipment. It's a multi-pronged approach, and our priority is to get supplies out to front-line health care workers in this time of crisis as quickly as possible. Thank you so much.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Just before we adjourn, I think this another mark of accomplishment on behalf of the great team here at the House of Commons. There have been some great efforts, even since yesterday evening, to get this turned around for today. My compliments to all members joining us here in the House and to all members who have joined by virtual conference. The committee is now adjourned until noon tomorrow. The meeting is adjourned. | |
doc_153 | Project Manager: Okay . So welcome back .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What do {gap} {disfmarker} do we have to do ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} .
Project Manager: So first . I want to say I'm the secretary , so I make the minutes . You find them in your {disfmarker} in the map in the From the group . There's the minutes from the first meeting . You'll find the next minutes also there . Then {vocalsound} I wanna hear from you , what you've done . And after that I have some new product requirements . So {disfmarker} And after that we have to make decisions , what we will do . And then we're ready . We have forty minutes for this meeting . After that we'll have lunch . So first I wanna ask the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer to tell what he did . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That's my task . Okay . Uh I've {disfmarker} Where have I put it ? My Documents or not ? Hmm . I've save it on my computer , my presentation .
Project Manager: Yeah on your computer , or the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But where ?
Project Manager: What's the name ?
Industrial Designer: Uh uh uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What's the name of it ?
Industrial Designer: It was about the working of the remote control .
Project Manager: It's the technical function or the functional requirements .
Industrial Designer: Nope .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Not a {gap} of {disfmarker} Wait . The working design . But I've saved it .
Project Manager: Working design .
Industrial Designer: But now I don't know where it is . Hmm .
Project Manager: Working design . What is this ? Product documents .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . And I import this until {disfmarker}
Project Manager: On the desktop . Up . {gap} up . Up . Up .
Industrial Designer: One more .
Project Manager: Up .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes . My Documents . Nope .
Industrial Designer: What the fuck is this ?
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Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: PowerPoint . Working design .
Industrial Designer: Yeah that's the empty one .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I had one .
Project Manager: Presentation of working design .
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh . Open it . Okay here it is .
Project Manager: Save as {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Desktop .
Project Manager: Project {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Project .
Marketing: Yeah . Okay . Well .
Project Manager: Save .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Very good .
Industrial Designer: A little later but here it is .
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: Okay . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So okay . It's a little difficult what I'm gonna tell you . It's about the working of the remote control . I just had an half an hour j to study it
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and {vocalsound} I don't get it .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Make it .
Project Manager: Now have ten minutes to tell it .
Industrial Designer: Ten minutes to tell it . Okay . I think it will be a few minutes and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: First uh I will tell you something about the findings , what I discovered about the remote control . The working bout it {disfmarker} uh of it . Uh then I'll have uh some kind of map , and it's the top of the remote control . With a little bit of science , uh you {disfmarker} I will show that uh in in a few minutes . And then uh what I'll think about it . First , the findings . The remote control is a very difficult uh thing to uh to explain to just all of you wh who haven't seen a remote control uh inside . Uh there's a lot of uh plastic on it ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: um because its uh not so expensive . And there are uh a lot of uh wires , uh which um connect the components in it , the battery , and there are um switches and things like that . There's a lot of small uh electronics . So it won't be um uh too expensive to build it . Only twelve Euro fifty I think uh we will make it . Now {gap} {disfmarker} And here I have the top of the remote control . Uh here's some kind of chip . Uh on top of this , there are uh the numbers . Uh you have all on your remote control . And uh the teletext uh button . And uh here's the battery . And when you push the button , it will uh will be sent to the chip . And the chip will um send it to all kind of sub-components . That's what I said , it's very difficult .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And after that it will be sent to the infrared . And that will send it to your television . That's a short h uh how it works . Uh I think I can uh make it uh difficult , but we all {vocalsound} we all don't get it . My preferences ? It's uh {disfmarker} it won't be uh {disfmarker} We shouldn't make it too big . Uh also for the cost , uh we should only put one battery on it . A long-lasting battery . Uh also for the cost , uh use only plastic . Not other materials . Also because of the cost , uh not too much buttons on it . We can also make uh a button uh with a {gap} {disfmarker} menu uh button . And then um that that you will see it on the T_V_ . And on the T_V_ you can uh switch into the menu .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: That's {disfmarker} I think it's easier . And the bleep signal , y uh you told us . Uh but we can also use it uh a bleep like something , when the battery's empty , then there is a bleep . Then you'll have to change it in a in a week or something . And also the bleep , when {disfmarker} what I told you about uh when you lost it , and you push a button , and then you hear bleep bleep , and we will find it . This is uh just uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh oh . Two questions .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: The battery . You say one battery is cheaper . Why ?
Industrial Designer: If we w if we use only just one uh small pen-light , then it will be cheaper than when we use two .
Project Manager: Yeah but when you use two , you can use it two times longer .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but then we'll have to make the um remote control uh long lasting .
Project Manager: Okay so it's the size of the remote control .
Industrial Designer: {gap} Just {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay and the buttons . When you use it on the television , you've {disfmarker} you need the television , wh which can use it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . But uh I think this {disfmarker} our remote control is for the televisions we uh we sell in our company ?
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Or is it also for other company {disfmarker} uh for other televisions ?
Project Manager: I think we have to use it also on other televisions though .
Industrial Designer: Then this is an option . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Maybe just a menu button to use it on our televisions . And then we make it easier uh for our televisions . And on the other tele televisions , you can also use it , but then we won't use the
Project Manager: Yeah but I don't {disfmarker} I think it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} They are two different things though . We have to choose one . It has to work on o uh all televisions .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ? Okay . Then I think uh the menu button uh will only work on the newer televisions . And we will uh look forward and don't make a remote control which for the older televisions .
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: And I just uh have one more idea . Uh maybe it's one of your tasks . But {disfmarker} Uh , to have a trendy remote control , we can also um make something like the Nokia um mobile phones . To change covers . So if you have uh a trendy half with all red , uh yellow and something . And then you can put a red cover on it .
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: And also different things .
Project Manager: Yeah . Good idea .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: Will this will this add to the cost ?
Industrial Designer: Uh then it won't be {disfmarker} uh will have just one cover on the uh original one . And then you can buy the covers .
Marketing: Yes but you have to m uh be able to change it . D does it make it more difficult to design ?
Industrial Designer: I think it will be a little more difficult , but not too much .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Not much . 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: Just like with the Nokia uh mobile phones .
Project Manager: Yeah but there are much more Nokia telephones than um these ones .
Industrial Designer: Just one .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah but then we'll have to to just um put five covers on it , and see if it works . If it won't works then we'll get something else . Then we uh won't g uh go further with it .
Project Manager: Yeah but are their profits bigger than their cost ?
Industrial Designer: Uh a p a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a cover made in uh in China , it it won't be I guess so expensive I think .
Project Manager: Yeah but there are also design cost . I don't think {disfmarker} When you have a remote control , do you change the cover ? Would you change the cover ?
Industrial Designer: Maybe . I wi I won't .
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: But maybe I think trendy people or like children where you can paint on it , and uh the the children think , oh this is my remote control , uh I made a picture on it . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: N yeah but {disfmarker} I think that too less people would change it for good profit . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Okay . And the other people ? What do you think about it ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah it's a good idea . But {disfmarker} If if it {disfmarker} Yeah , I don't {disfmarker} I'm not sure if it will make profit enough to uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: But it's uh yeah it's uh original idea . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes it is but I don't think we have to do it .
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: You're the Project Manager . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes . That's it .
Project Manager: That's clear . {vocalsound} Okay thank you . So now the User Interface Designer .
User Interface: Oh . That's me . Uh {disfmarker} Come on . {gap} . Ah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yes well uh uh I shall give a short talk about the the technical function design .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um I thought the the the technical function design was uh to uh {disfmarker} for a remote control to to to have some influence on the T_V_ set . Uh both audio and vide video uh in a cordless way . No cords attached . And uh well , it all by pushing a button on the remote . That was from my own experience and uh and uh the previous meeting . Uh I find some uh some interesting quotes on the web . Uh well the same idea here . Uh message to the television . And uh and and and well basic uh operations like on and off , and uh switching channels , and uh {disfmarker} and maybe uh teletext or something like that . Uh well these are two uh remotes , and that's our uh our dilemma I think . Uh {disfmarker} We just heard from the Industrial Designer how uh difficult it is . But uh shall we make a basic remote control , uh just uh swapping channels and volume and uh power button and well nothing much more . Or uh uh more functions on the remote . Uh maybe more devices you can influence . Uh a radio or a v a video recorder , uh V_C_R_ . {vocalsound} Yeah well that's our dilemma . Um any ideas about that ? Basic or multifunctional ?
Project Manager: We'll got back on that later .
User Interface: Okay yeah . Yeah well the {disfmarker} that was just on my mind .
Marketing: Yes .
User Interface: So uh I didn't know what uh what way we would go . Mm yeah well that was my uh functional uh talk {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Project Manager: 'Kay , thank you . Then it's your turn , the marketing expert .
Marketing: Okay . Uh um m Yeah . {vocalsound} Um yeah okay . This bit too far . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So {disfmarker} So I'm uh gonna have a presentation about um the market , about um yeah what people think . Uh we did a usability lab-test with a hundred persons . And we looked at uh several um things . Uh among them design , uh d d how d did they like the use of it , uh what frustrations they had while using remote controls . Uh well what what will be our market . And uh we asked them if we had some new featu features . If um that would be a good idea or not . Well our findings . Uh our users , they disliked the look and feel of current remote controls . Um uh they especially found found them very ugly . And um th they also found them hard to to learn how to use it . Uh well they also zap a lot . So uh zapping uh should be very easy . And uh fifty percent of the users only use ten percent of the buttons . So a lot of unused buttons . There is more findings . Uh on the buttons . Which uh buttons find users uh very important and which which not ? And how much would they use them ? Well uh the most used button is the channel selection . And uh we asked them how uh relevant they think uh the buttons are . The power , volume and channel selections are very relevant . Uh teletext is uh less relevant but also important . Uh not important they found the audio , uh that's not the volume but uh specific the the pitch , or the left or right . Uh the screen and the brightness . And uh channel settings . Uh th and they also are not used very often . Then we have a few um graphs about the market . Uh here we can see what the market share is of uh several groups . Um as you can see , most users are uh between thirty six and forty five . Um the the the younger group between sixteen and twenty five is not very big . And to come back on the the swapping uh things , uh I don't think uh , I {vocalsound} I think the younger will be most interest in it . But uh they are not a very big group . Um in the {gap} we asked them , uh how would you like a s a new feature . If you have an L_C_D_ on the remote control , what would you think of it . Now you can clearly see young users say {gap} . I will {disfmarker} that would very nice . And older user think uh they will be scared of change {vocalsound} I think .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And they won't like it . And another thing , how would you like to have a speech recognition on it . Well here we see the same . Young users uh think that's an interesting idea . And old users not . Uh well we uh found out that there are two {disfmarker} several markets at which we can aim . Uh the first are the younger , the age between sixteen and forty five . Uh they are highly interested in the features , as you can see uh here . And um they are more critical on their money spending . Uh the second group is the older group . Aged between forty six and sixty five . They are less interested in uh new features . But uh they spend their money more easily . Now if we look back at this graph , we can see that among the first group is about um sixty percent . And the second group about forty percent . So the the first group is bigger . Well then I come to my uh personal preferences . Uh yeah the first question is uh {disfmarker} also we have to ask is at the which market do we aim at . Uh of course n uh saying we aim at the young group doesn't say that old people won't buy it . But less of them will buy it . Um well I uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay . What I thought , um even young people say it's hard to use , remote control . So if you make a remote control that is uh very easy to use , that's especially aimed at this group , even uh the young group will also be more interested . And um we can make special features . But uh I think it looks nice in the first time . But when use it , uh I don't know what's uh good thing of speech recognition .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Um well th uh that's my second point .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh less important functions should be discarded from the remote control . It's about discussion we had earlier . Um {disfmarker} You can find most functions on a T_V_ set . So uh you don't have to have a lot of audio options , or screen options to change the brightness . And such things . Um well the design is very important . One thing I did not say I think , is that a lot of users also said then I would uh buy a good looking uh remote control if there will be one . But they found most remote controls very ugly . So the design of our remote control is very important . And uh yeah it should be very zap friendly , as most users use it for that . That were my findings .
Project Manager: Okay thank you .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . I have uh one question .
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: If we aim for the younger people , um and there will be uh a lot of features like L_C_D_ or the the the speech uh f recognising , uh the cost will be a lot of h uh a lot higher .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Uh I think we don't have that in our budget .
Marketing: Yes .
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: Do you think ?
Marketing: No .
User Interface: And I don't uh I don't think twenty five Euros for a remote is really cheap or something .
Industrial Designer: Like {disfmarker} No . No .
User Interface: So it's {disfmarker} Yeah , it's hard to uh get the younger group .
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh .
Project Manager: I think uh the L_C_D_ is cheaper than speech recognition . So I think that can be an d good option . L_C_D_ .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Just the L_C_D_ ?
Project Manager: Yes . Only the L_C_D_ .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} But we'll come back on that .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Now {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Oh , go on . What d d d um {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} Uh we go {gap} {disfmarker} back on the decisions later . Now we have a few new product requirements . First , teletext . We have internet now so we don't need the teletext anymore . So not necessary .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Next . Only for the television . So we don't look at the other things like the radio or something . Only the television . We look at the age group of forty plus . Uh no , younger than forty . Is a g big group , and like you showed , n not very much people buy our stuff . Fourth point . {vocalsound} Our corporate colour and slogan must be used . Very important for the design . So you can see it on our site .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Next . Um no . We have to make our decisions , what we want to do . So {vocalsound} like you said , we need the {disfmarker} {gap} . Maybe it's good to put it in a document . Now we have to decide what controls do we need . So maybe you can tell us .
Marketing: Yeah maybe we can first have a discussion uh on the the product requirements you just uh said .
Project Manager: Sorry ?
Marketing: The the requirements you just said ,
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: maybe we should first have a discussion about that .
Project Manager: Yes , it's okay .
Marketing: I uh personally think uh teletext is a good option . Uh not everyone um who is looking T_V_ can go to internet when they want to see the latest news .
Project Manager: Yeah but we don't use it . It's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} new requirement .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So , it's not my requirement .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay , we'll just have to do that .
Project Manager: We have to do this .
Industrial Designer: Okay . No discussion about it .
Marketing: Okay . Okay sorry .
Project Manager: No .
Marketing: Then uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay . {vocalsound} Unfortunately .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So what controls do we need ? Who first ?
User Interface: Well a power button ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . Uh power .
User Interface: Uh the well um I think separate channels . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh mm channel .
User Interface: But then both the the separate channels . So so uh zero to nine or something .
Project Manager: Channel {disfmarker} Zero to nine .
User Interface: Uh volume .
Project Manager: Volume . Maybe it's easy to pick . What was w your one ? Techno
Marketing: Mine ? It's the functional requirements .
Project Manager: Okay . We had w uh no no no no . Where was that example of the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh mine .
Project Manager: Johan . That was the {disfmarker} the the the the {disfmarker} {gap}
User Interface: Technical .
Project Manager: technical {disfmarker} Hallo . Okay . What do we need ? On-off . Zero to nine .
Industrial Designer: To change to the next channel , just one button . To move up , move down .
Project Manager: Yeah that's the channel .
Marketing: D Yeah . Do we make a menu ?
Project Manager: Menu ? Uh yes the n newer televisions ha do have menus . Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} {disfmarker} M Menu . I think um the only one or two numbers .
User Interface: Mm yes .
Project Manager: And {disfmarker} Hello ? That's ch {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} I think it will be um q quite easy to use , to have uh uh four arrows . Up-down for channel selection ,
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: and left-right uh for volume . And uh a menu uh button . And if you press the menu button you get into the menu , and you can use the same buttons . But the {disfmarker} then to scroll through the menu and to change the options .
Project Manager: On the L_C_D_ screen , you mean ?
Marketing: Uh well yeah that depends on if you have uh the menu on the T_V_ . Or you get the menu on the L_C_D_ screen on the remote control .
Project Manager: Think it's better to have it on the remote control , 'cause it it has to work on all televisions . So
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: we need {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But then we come to the costs .
Project Manager: N Yes . But if we have this {disfmarker}
Marketing: 'Kay . But well if you aim at the younger market , um a as they as uh s uh as we seen in the usability uh lab , uh they will buy a nice looking um remote control . And also to find the easy to use uh part very important . So if we have a L_C_D_ sh uh screen , and uh not too many buttons , I think that will incre uh uh even when it's a bit more cost , it will still sell .
Project Manager: So now we don't have a lot of buttons . Is this enough ?
User Interface: Mute .
Project Manager: Mute . Maybe in the menu ?
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah but then it's always uh more than one uh thing to do .
Project Manager: Mute . Mm-hmm . Okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Maybe more ? {vocalsound} {vocalsound} No . Well . Then that's all . This will be the buttons . And {disfmarker} I think that's enough for the next phase . So we can go on to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But now we have only the buttons .
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: And uh we don't yet have to decide what the remote control would look like ? Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No that's for the next phase .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Um {gap} {disfmarker} Phase two is the conceptual design . So then we'll have the concepts .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Okay .
Project Manager: That's for the {disfmarker} So uh next point . Now we have lunch-break . After that we have t thirty minutes for work . And you can find the minutes in the Project Documents folder inclusive the uh buttons . No . Your individual action , you can find them in the email . So now it's time for lunch .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Okay . Good idea .
Project Manager: Thanks for coming .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} | |
doc_154 | Project Manager: Okay uh Agnes , you can help me for the slide when {gap}
User Interface: Yep . Sure .
Project Manager: okay . Okay , welcome back . I hope uh you have a fresh head and a fresh time . How t now the meeting actually we gathering here to discuss about the functional design meeting . Okay , and uh we'll issue some information from uh all of you . And it's in the , I think uh , in the sharing folder . And uh I will invite uh the Christine and the Ed and uh Agnes to discuss about on the various subjects . So can you go to the next slide ? Yeah uh the agenda of the meeting is opening . Then uh I'm going to talk about uh the project management , what I'm going to do , and uh , of course , I'm doing the project management and secretary both , okay , to take the minutes of the meeting . And there are three presentations . One is uh new project requirements . And the second one about uh decision on remote control functions . And uh finally we are closing . Uh and the meeting time will be uh forty minutes , so you have to be very quick . And I have come up with the {disfmarker} management come with the new proposal , okay , and I have to discuss a few points on this . Uh both says new insights in the aim of your project . Uh the one is uh the teletext becomes uh outmoded , okay because if uh because of the computer systems and the new technology . So we don't need to consider really about the teletext all in our new project design . And the second one is about uh the remote control . Should be used only for the T_V_ . That's what our uh management says . And the third point , it's very very important to establish our uh marketing or uh corporate image , okay , with this new project or new product . Okay . {vocalsound} So I will invite uh {disfmarker} Agnes , can you go to the third slide ?
User Interface: No , this is the third slide .
Project Manager: Okay , {gap} . So , I'll invite uh Christine to discuss about uh the functional design .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay , do you wanna open the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Sure . Um . You're participant s
Industrial Designer: I'm number two .
User Interface: Two ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's it .
User Interface: Do you want the mouse , or do you want me to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I'll do the notes . Yeah , thanks .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So um well I I figured uh we should um identify some user requirements , and from my experience , I wanna uh , and from {vocalsound} research I did , uh the the device has to turn the television on and off the first time you press on the big button , you can't uh can't have like uh waffling on this point , you know .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Really have {disfmarker} It needs to be able y y have to be able to find it . Because one of the biggest problems with remote controls is finding them . So uh , I also , since we have to establish our corporate image on the basis of this new product , thought we better look at things that are popular and um ex go beyond those , and , as I said in the first meeting , um {vocalsound} and then uh we might wanna talk eventually about the materials that are appropriate to use in uh in the construction , especially in the the uh the outside of the product
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so that it gives the appearance , and it is reliable , and so forth . {vocalsound} I did a little history on uh the the uh remote controls and when they were invented and so forth , so , I guess this guy Zenith uh created the Flashmatic , which I kinda like the idea , 'cause it made me think of um um maybe the remote control made a big flash when uh you turn the T_V_ on and off , that might be interesting . And um {vocalsound} so it was highly directional flash light that uh you could turn the picture on and off , and the sound on and off , and change channels c so I think um those are still requirements we have today , uh fifty years later .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And uh it was really a pioneering innovation , but it was uh sensitive to the sun , so that uh it would get {disfmarker} would start off by the {disfmarker} you'd get {disfmarker} it would easily cause um problems . So , uh I {disfmarker} in addition to uh looking at the um {vocalsound} uh the functional requir so all these devices are examples of where uh mm {disfmarker} they {vocalsound} represent examples that are available today {vocalsound} {vocalsound} which I think the one in the middle is r um really uh something to keep in mind .
Marketing: Fantastic . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It'd be easy to find . And um it would uh y you'd {vocalsound} {disfmarker} you could throw it at things if if the T_V_ didn't turn on and off , you could use it for something else . And since I'm not really um {vocalsound} Industrial Designer , I didn't really know what to do with this slide . But um {vocalsound} I just {vocalsound} took some {vocalsound} different uh schematics and I put them into this , and I guess this is what a slide might look like if you were drawing a circuit board . {gap} I don't know why um we were asked to do this . So , uh {vocalsound} personal preferences , {vocalsound} um
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I think we could uh I I'm really thinking outside the box here , and I think that we should consider perhaps having an an an a a size uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} a remote control that changes in size depending on the user preference .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So something that's very very flexible and inflatable and then you could shrink it . I think um it could either be {disfmarker} you could go either one extreme , be very colourful , or you could make it clear , and um kind of blend in with things , so you didn't have to um {vocalsound} uh have a problem with the th the decoration of the {disfmarker} of the user's home . Um I think uh it needs to be waterproof , because uh sometimes they fall into cups
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and , you know , it might be out by the swimming pool or something like that . Um {vocalsound} if you uh mi one of {disfmarker} one of my requirements was about needs t to tell you when it's done its job or not , because half the time , I keep pushing on the remote control , and I don't know if it's actually understood my message , so I think it should give you some sort of an oral cue . And uh , course I never wanna replace the battery . {vocalsound} So ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: that's {disfmarker} those are my f preferences , and that's my presentation .
Project Manager: Yeah , let me uh interrupt you uh if you can add other facility , other feature , like uh unbreakable .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: Okay , because uh especially today , you know , you have the family and the kids ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: okay , and the kids throw it and they they play with their remotes and {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Run over it with a car .
Project Manager: Yes . Okay , so if you can add the feature , okay , for your uh fabric whatever in your outline design okay , with unbreakable , okay , I think that will give a lot of advantage for our product , if I'm not wrong . Maybe you can uh add it in that .
Industrial Designer: Good idea . Good idea , I'll I'll uh um {disfmarker} Yes , very good .
Project Manager: Okay , uh thank you Christine , and uh uh any questions or uh clarifications , or any discussion on the functional design ?
User Interface: Do you have any preconceived ideas in terms of materials ? 'Cause , for example , in the unbreakable thing , doing something plastic would be harder ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: whereas having something like , I dunno , steel or titanium isn't really economically viable . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Titanium . Titanium would be {vocalsound} be heavy , too ,
Marketing: Titanium . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: wouldn't it ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: No , I haven't really um {disfmarker} I wanted feedback , I think we need to rate {disfmarker} rank these , but we'll see what your uh personal preferences are and your thoughts .
User Interface: Yeah . Sure , yeah . No , I just wondering whether {disfmarker} that you had any sort of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I like titanium . It's light .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh {vocalsound} yeah
Marketing: Expensive .
User Interface: {vocalsound} The marketing comes out . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but uh who who said {disfmarker} who said we were ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: you know , nobody told me how mu what our financial objective is , so um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It'd be hard to inflate something ou made out of titanium though {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Yeah the the {disfmarker} I'm sorry because uh the last meeting we supposed to discuss about the financial thing .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh let me go quickly , maybe if I can go back {vocalsound} . I know the project plan and the budget . So I can close this , {gap} not sure . Was in uh {disfmarker} S This . So let me see where is this file .
User Interface: That's Christine's .
Project Manager: This is Christine . {vocalsound}
User Interface: And that's mine , I think .
Project Manager: That's yours , okay . Saving .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap}
User Interface: In modified .
Marketing: I don't know ,
Project Manager: Okay , uh
Marketing: I think verbally we can {disfmarker} we can pretty much sell .
Project Manager: I will {disfmarker} I will send you a mail , okay ? The project may be the the project aim , okay . At the end of the day , the company uh wants to make at least uh the fifty million Euro . Okay , and uh of course the price will be very reasonable on the the sales side . Okay , that maybe Eddie will talk to you about uh how much uh the price and uh what's uh {disfmarker} how much its cost for the manufacturing and how much it's going to be {disfmarker} we sell in the market . Okay . Then uh you can come back with your feedback . And I I have one {disfmarker} maybe the suggestion or opinion . This remote control , okay , it can be for like universal , to use for any T_V_ . Okay , and it will be slim , okay , and uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Not fat ?
Project Manager: Not fat .
Industrial Designer: Not fat , huh .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Might be hard to find , though .
Project Manager: Yep . But let's try it , okay , with the different uh {disfmarker} the designs , okay , the functional designs .
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Oh , okay .
Project Manager: Okay ? So any other questions ?
Marketing: Uh from her side , I don't think uh there's too many more questions .
Project Manager: Okay . Thank you Christine for uh time being ,
Marketing: If you can come to the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: so then uh Ed , so can you tell about {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay , from the marketing {disfmarker} yeah , from the marketing side , just to to give an idea what the management is looking for , I was looking for a a remote control to have a s
User Interface: S 'scuse me for one sec .
Marketing: I have a sales price of twenty-five Euro , with a production price of uh twelve and a half Euro . For what uh I think from what we're trying to find , we're tr we're looking for , I don't think that price is exactly in the market . Okay ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: I'll explain myself here now in the sense that uh in a {disfmarker} in the recent surveys , uh from the ages {disfmarker} fr from fifteen to thirty-five , eighty percent are willing to spend more money for something as fancy as trendy .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Twenty-five Euros , uh that's that's a preson reasonable price . That's a market price right now . Now if we're gonna take a risk , and push this up a bit , make it more expensive ,
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: but give them added things that they don't have now ,
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: then it w it could possibly sell . Obviously the risk is there . Too expensive , they're not gonna buy . But , I think uh there's one other thing interesting {disfmarker} two things that are interesting {gap} is that uh from the fifteen to thirty-five year-old group , which always spends more money on trendy new things , speech recognition is requested .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Speech recognition? .
Marketing: And we're talking between seventy-five to ninety percent of this group is willing to pay for speech recognition on a remote .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Obviously , we can't make a remote into a computer , but maybe simple commands . I dunno , louder , softer , on , off . That might be a possibility , even though it costs more , to be the first on the market to produce this .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Thirty-five percent say they're too difficult to use . So we have to figure out a way of making it um more user friendly . {vocalsound} Uh fifty percent say they can't find the remote half the time . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So maybe one word speech recognition commands , say remote , and there's a beep beep beep , and they can find it through , you know , ten tons of newspapers , magazines , whatever you have at home .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But , in the cost that uh the management is looking for , that's not gonna be possible . But if it's trendy , if it's fancy , it's got some colour to it , if it's very easy {disfmarker} easy to use , if it's got simple remote {disfmarker} speech remote uh control , like I said , louder , softer , change channel , on , off , remote , it goes beep beep , I can find my my remote without spending half a day looking for it and getting all upset 'cause I can't turn the T_V_ on . So we're gonna have to look at it in a {vocalsound} in this global idea , with the ideas of the industrial uh design .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But , price obviously we have to talk about .
Project Manager: Yep . So what do you think about uh the design {gap} ? Do you think you can make it or uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: D uh I'm sorry ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What do you think about uh the design , uh what he was talking about {disfmarker} of the speech recognition ?
Marketing: Speech recognition .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well , uh training is always an issue with uh commands .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So um {disfmarker} might uh {disfmarker} we can perhaps um {vocalsound} do it if the user is willing to spend some time in the training process , uh it could reduce th th uh the overall um cost . Not sure how . {vocalsound} But um anyway , um {vocalsound} I I think also that uh this might impact the battery life . And um so , maybe what we'll have to do is um add something where you can um recharge it wirelessly so that uh {vocalsound} y you know sen send power to it . So uh or maybe uh set it out in the sun and it uh , you know , gets uh , from the light , um a a solar cell inside there
User Interface: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: so that uh you have enough uh juice to do all these fancy things .
User Interface: It seems also like with the speech recognition , yeah , it's a great feature , but if you're watching T_V_ , there's a lot of ambient sound , and it's words . It's not just , you know , noises like something hitting . It's actual speech , so then you have to make sure that the speech recognizer is good enough to filter out the T_V_ speech , and the the user's speech . Otherwise , you can say remote .
Industrial Designer: Off . {vocalsound}
User Interface: But if someone on the screen is saying the same thing , all of a sudden , you have someone in a movie saying off and your screen dies , because they've triggered the remote control and it's turned off your T_V_ . {vocalsound} So , I think if we can find a speech recognizer that can handle those types of problems , then yeah , it'd be a really good marketing gimmick .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: But , I think we seriously need to consider how that would impact the situation .
Industrial Designer: Very good point .
Marketing: Because tha w {vocalsound} with speech recognition uh th I'm not that good at that idea
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: but th {vocalsound} if it's a one-word recognition , 'cause I know with telephones and cars and things I've seen in the States ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {gap} a friend of mine says call Mom , and it calls up Mom .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: 'Kay the radio can be on and everything .
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: Because I think s with speech recognition , if uh the the remote or like the telephone {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it has a exact word that it has to hear .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: I don't think it would come through a sentence in a television . If somebody's speaking on the se the television , they're not gonna stop and say remote ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: okay . So I think that uh something could be designed to recognise single word {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh yeah . Yeah . No , I think it's a great idea if we can design it to to suit those requirements .
Marketing: Like the t like the telephone . No because I {gap} this is this is years ago in the United States where we're driving down and he said call home , and the telephone called immediately {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: so well , that's kinda cute . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well , what I can uh suggest to you , Christine , okay , uh if you need some uh {disfmarker} the technical feedback , or some training , okay , about uh this facility , especially for the speech recognition , I can recommend you some companies like uh Intel or I_B_M_ , okay , because they're already in this uh speech recognition part , okay . And uh you can maybe have some uh technical backup from them , some kind of a technical tie-up . Okay , and uh if you want , I can coordinate , okay , to get some information , okay , and uh you can uh let me know , okay , so what kind of uh the details you require okay , to add this feature in this project . I don't think it's uh the difficult . And uh we need to know how much is the timeframe you need to develop , apart from uh what {gap} today .
Industrial Designer: Okay , we'll find that out .
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: From from your side uh , you're gonna have to go back the management and s be more s precise .
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: What do they want ?
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: Uh {vocalsound} , a risk , take a risk on the market ? Something that's gonna cost more , but could very easily s make a boom in the market ?
Project Manager: Yes . Yep .
Marketing: Because it has to be something totally different , has to be total totally new . Something that nobody has right now .
Project Manager: Yeah but
Marketing: And it's gonna cost .
Project Manager: but end of the day , you're the sales guy , so I will come back and sit on your head because uh you are going to give your sales projection ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: okay . It's uh of course it's uh good to uh tell the management how much it's cost us
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and how much you are going to benefit ,
Marketing: Sure . Sure .
Project Manager: okay . And uh , so I don't mind to convince , okay , the management to spend some more money on the project , okay , if you can make out of
Marketing: Obviously .
Project Manager: the money from this project .
Marketing: If the bottom line is positive . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes , okay I don't mind to convince the the management ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: okay .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: The management says , okay , so they they don't want certain facilities , which it's already worked , okay , they want something uh new , okay . I think uh like uh speech recognit definitely they will agree , I don't think they'll say no for that , okay . And uh I hope I can convince the management on that , okay . So if you have any uh new ideas , okay , for uh your {disfmarker} you can always come up and uh you can tell me if you need any uh s special , okay , coordination , okay , between any uh technical companies , which you can uh hide their technology backup , okay , for your uh functional design or technical design , okay , then I am ready to do that . And uh what's your comments about uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um well , I mean , maybe if I go through my presentation , you can sort of see what the user perspective is , and how it ties into the other two comments .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah , so you are finish , Ed , uh so I can uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yes . Mm .
Project Manager: Okay , I'll uh hand over to Agnes . Just gonna close this . T Uh where are you , here ?
User Interface: Mm participant three .
Project Manager: Participant three .
User Interface: Nope , here {gap}
Project Manager: Okay , so I'll {disfmarker} yep . Okay .
User Interface: Good .
Project Manager: Is it okay ?
User Interface: Thanks .
Project Manager: Alri
User Interface: Yeah , and that's fine . Okay . So , basically , the method that we usually use in the user interface design is that we need to look at what people like and what people don't like about existing products . So , in our case , existing remote controls . And then , what the good ideas are , and what the bad ideas are , and why they're bad and good , which isn't always as obvious . We seem to have intuitions about why things are good or things are bad , but when you look , technically , at how it works , sometimes that's not the case . Then we need to decide what functionalities we really want to keep , 'cause that'll feed into both Ed's work and Christine's work . Um and then what the remote control should look like , obviously , once we've got a good idea of what the functionalities are . So , in terms of the functionalities that we need , you obviously need to be able to turn the T_V_ on and off . You need to change channels , both by directly going to a specific channel or by channel surfing . You need to be able to control the volume and then control any menus on the T_V_ to regulate contrast or whatever . So , the problems that people have expressed is that there's too many buttons on remote controls , in general . The buttons {disfmarker} it's not clear what they're supposed to do . Um often , you need to know specific button sequences {vocalsound} to get certain functionalities done , um which you don't necessarily always remember , especially if it's a functionality that you don't use very often . And that the buttons are too small . So , here we've got two examples where here on the left-hand side , you can see a remote control that has lots and lots of buttons .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: The buttons , in a lot of cases , are tiny . Um they're hard to see , and okay , they're labelled , but the labels don't necessarily tell you too much . Whereas , on the other side , you have a much simpler remote control that I think basically has the minimum functionalities {vocalsound} that are needed . And it sort of looks simpler and just less imposing when you first look at it . So , I would be inclined to go sort of towards this , in terms of design , rather than this . And if there's specific functionalities that require more buttons , then we can figure out how to do it with existing um buttons . So my personal preferences are to keep the number of buttons to a limit , or to a minimum , sorry , make frequently used buttons bigger and more strategically placed , so like the on button being really obvious one , the channel changing and the volume , and to keep the design basically sleek and simple .
Project Manager: Click mm .
User Interface: Which , I think ties into what Christine and Ed have both said fairly reasonably . Um so , that's pretty much it , an I don't know if you guys have any questions or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh , it's um , seems {vocalsound} very understandable . Clearly your research and uh {disfmarker} and ours uh heading in the same direction ,
User Interface: Yep .
Industrial Designer: and um uh the only thing that I saw missing from uh your your research that we found was this uh ability to find the doggone thing when you need it .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes , that's true . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So uh , you know , but that's okay . That's why we're all here at the table , so that if we think of it and our research indicates certain things and um w we it's complementary .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I also think that um uh th f the the feel of it is uh , when you hold it , is something that um uh was expressed more in in in in my uh design
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and that's logical and normal 'cause those are the parameters that an Industrial Designer's more thinking about , th th the look and the feel ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and uh , you're {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh , that's definitely a very important factor , especially to users who are gonna be buying the thing and then using it almost on an {disfmarker} daily basis in a lot of cases , I think .
Industrial Designer: First . Yep . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Okay , so I don't have any questions . Sounds good .
Project Manager: So {vocalsound} for anybody need uh any help , for time being , on this uh subjects , okay , so please come back to me ,
User Interface: Oh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and uh Christine , maybe I can uh try to help you to get some uh the technical uh the companies to help you for uh make a design uh slim , okay , and to add some features , like we are talking about , the speech recognition and all .
User Interface: Should we maybe make a decision about what features we actually want to include ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: 'cause we've thrown a lot of features onto the table , but do we actually want to incorporate all of them , or have we missed anything ?
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Do you wanna go back and look at the closing slide , maybe that would provide some guidance ?
User Interface: Sure .
Industrial Designer: Doesn't really tell us .
Project Manager: So not really this one we are talk ab
Marketing: Individual actions . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well it says individual actions ,
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: it says user interf so I'm supposed to do the components concept , supposed to work on the user interface concept ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and you're supposed to keep watching the trends . Um and specific instructions will be sent by our our coach . I think we should {vocalsound} do as many features as uh {disfmarker} start with all of them right now
User Interface: I thought {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and eliminate them later in the process , that's my suggestion .
Project Manager: Okay , that will be great . {vocalsound} And uh I'll send you the the minutes of meet
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You can object if you want to {vocalsound}
User Interface: No , I I'm just thinking in terms of time ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} She's objecting . {vocalsound}
User Interface: like if {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes , now I'm objecting . No , I mean , I was just thinking is it really practical to start designing something with features that we're just gonna end up throwing away ? I mean , it takes a lot of time and effort for everyone to consider different features , um and s if we spend that time and effort on features that we're not gonna use , maybe it's better to spend it on the f thinking more about features that we actually do want , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think we should take that as an action item for after the meeting ,
Marketing: Oh th {vocalsound} we s we still have {disfmarker}
User Interface: guess {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: 'cause w our meeting time has run out .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Somebody else has go to use this room ,
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: Sure .
Industrial Designer: and , you know , we can't hang out here
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and talk about this , so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . Sure .
Project Manager: Okay , what we'll do is now we'll take for lunch break , okay , then uh we can discuss furthermore , okay , with our areas , and uh then we will come back again in the {disfmarker} in the next meeting . So thanks for coming and uh I'll send you minutes of meeting , and uh please put your all information in the sharing folder so everybody can share the information . Okay ?
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: So let's go for lunch then . Thank you .
Industrial Designer: Thank you very much .
Marketing: Agreed . {vocalsound} | |
doc_155 | Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Jack Sargeant and I'm very pleased to welcome Jayne Bryant back, who is substituting for Jack today. Are there any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, this morning, is our sixth scrutiny session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning: Sally Jenkins, who is chair of All Wales Heads of Children’s Services and is here representing the Association of Directors of Social Services; Alastair Birch, who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at Pembrokeshire County Council, who is here representing the Association of Directors of Education Wales; and Councillor Huw David, who is the Welsh Local Government Association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of Bridgend County Borough Council. So, thank you all for attending this morning. We're very pleased to have you here. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so, if you're happy, we'll go straight into questions and I'll start just by asking about your general support for the Bill, which is outlined in the evidence. Can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear?
Alastair Birch: Bore da—bore da, bawb. So, I'm Alastair Birch. The statement, really, from ADEW is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved, really, under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The current legislation has been criticised, obviously, by the UN concerning the defence of reasonable punishment still being within our current legislation. So, we will always—ADEW will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld, so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from ADEW, and the position of ADEW is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process. And there are certain articles—. I know that the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4, article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first, that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority. And we know, for safeguarding purposes, that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment, whether it be a school or college. So, that is—the position is really following that legal position under the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Nothing to add at this stage, no?
Sally Jenkins: I'll just add, on behalf of ADSS and on behalf of children's services and social services more widely, for us, this is not a change in our position, this is not new; this is a position that we, on behalf of the leaders of social services across Wales, have taken over many years, going back 20, 25 years. I think what we would say is that we really welcome this Bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children, for parents and for professionals. I think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation, so it's rare, it's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in Wales, but what it will do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children. I would echo absolutely what Alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child, but equally, in terms of all of our policies in Wales in terms of promoting well-being for children, this has to be key. So, for us, this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in Wales. For children's services at the very sharp end of this world, for us, it brings a true clarity. This continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children, and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The committee has already heard different views about whether there's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children. What evidence does the work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful?
Sally Jenkins: Obviously, what you'll all be aware of is that, as part of the consultation for this Bill, the Public Policy Institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children. A number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children's positions within their families. What we know is that children themselves, as Alastair has already referred to, really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful, and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience. Now, there may be disagreement about that, there will be different views on that, but that's the voice of the child in this debate. The voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful. I think what we would also say is that, in the world that we work in, it's part of a continuum, and, whilst this is an element of how children are cared for, what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treat children in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work. By changing this, it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence, which invades children's physical integrity, making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse, and you did refer to that just now. Is there anything you want to add on that?
Sally Jenkins: I would echo that. I think there is something in this that is about our culture, about how we see our children. It is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people, and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other, more extreme versions of violence, which then complicates the issue for us. This is about clarity, and, whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child, it's not a small episode for a child, it is a major episode for a child, and I think absolutely, as you said, the potential for it then to lead on, and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children, is clearly there.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The final question from me: your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment, but that contrasts with what we've been told by the children's commissioner and the equal protection network, who've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the Bill. How do you respond to that view, and is what you're calling for essential to be on the face of the Bill?
Sally Jenkins: It's not essential for it to be on the face of the Bill. What we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing. Absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—I think that is really important—and I've already mentioned clarity. What we don't want to do is further confuse the position. We know that the legislation in different countries has done that, and there are ways that you can do it, but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you.
Huw David: And, as a principle, obviously we would welcome full involvement, and we know there's the commitment from Welsh Government to full involvement in the implementation, because, as with every piece of legislation, implementation is the most important part, and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign, and there is that from Welsh Government, because we need to take families, carers and parents with us on this. Also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting, and that needs to be a universal offer across Wales. If we're to progress with this, that has to be an option that is offered to every parent in Wales.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you.
Sally Jenkins: Local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this Bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be, as Huw describes, both in terms of the awareness raising, early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in local government, but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey. This is not an imposition. This is embracing a culture and a value system for our children.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. I've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden on the implementation of the Bill.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. So, you've pre-empted me, Huw.
Huw David: Right. Sorry. I've got good eyesight; I can't see—. [Laughter.]
Dawn Bowden AM: You've already said, obviously, that you're looking towards working with Welsh Government in terms of its implementation. What's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the Bill—local authorities generally, now? Have you had a role? Has Welsh Government been involving you in discussions around the introduction of the Bill so far?
Huw David: Yes. So, obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with Welsh Government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully, if it is progressed.
Sally Jenkins: Our involvement with this, from a social services perspective, goes back over two years, directly in working towards this point, never mind the history in terms of work towards this area. But, very directly in relation to this Bill, we were first involved at least two years ago, to recollect, and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies, for example Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru and the police, and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us. And then particularly, for example, with CAFCASS Cymru in relation to private law, what the fallout might be, and then what, if anything—and that's the discussion that we need to have—that could mean for children's services in particular, given the pressures that we're already under. So, we've been in constant, I suppose, involvement in terms of the Bill already, as part of the consultation, in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with Welsh Government officials to take this forward. And we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. You touched there on the pressures that you're already under, which we fully appreciate, but you also mentioned in answers to Lynne Neagle earlier on that you welcomed the Bill in terms of its clarity. So, are you confident that the Bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it?
Sally Jenkins: We've done—. A number of local authorities—my own included, Newport City Council, has done some work to look at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be. Further work is needed on that area, and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase. I think what we've done is we've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge, but that's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations and size and also different systems. And obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this. I wouldn't like to say one way or the other, because I think, in terms of that culture shift, it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness, but it could also be, I suppose, as Huw alludes to, that, if we're looking at ensuring greater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents, actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well. So, at this stage, I think what we would want to say is that we continue to be fully involved in the implementation phase, to look at what the cost implications for that could be, and not just for the local authorities but also the police, CAFCASS Cymru, for third sector organisations involved in preventative services. I don't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society. So, a difficult answer, in the sense that—
Dawn Bowden AM: No, I understand. What you're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that, in your view, is a good piece of legislation. It's setting out to, hopefully, achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to. Can I ask you whether, then, you've also given thought to the impact on—we've talked about social services, but the impact on other services, like housing, education and so on? You're obviously coming at it from slightly different angles in other sections.
Alastair Birch: We are part of the universal service for children, and we very much work in co-operation with the WLGA and our social care colleagues, and we've been part of that consultation. In terms of education, the main changes, or adaptations, would be around training and awareness. And, in terms of the Bill, there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of making sure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support. So, really, that's the key element there, and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost, and sometimes possibly even host, in terms of being community schools. These positive parenting approaches that—. I have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how those positive parenting approaches make a difference to families.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, from your point of view, it's awareness raising, is it?
Alastair Birch: It's awareness raising; it's making sure that professionals are fully briefed on necessary changes, that there's very little ambiguity, that we are aware that—. We still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern. That'll still be part of the all-Wales child protection procedures. That won't change, and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals. But that awareness raising and training will be the key, and then, obviously, working in co-operation with our colleagues.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, I understand that. Have you been given an indication of how long you've got between Royal Assent and implementation, and whether you've thought through any of the key milestones that need to be implemented?
Sally Jenkins: There's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we're part of, which is now laying out what would happen after Royal Assent if that is given. So, we will work towards that.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. My final question, Chair, is about some of the responses we've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involved in family life—I'm sure you've heard those views—unless it's in the most serious circumstances. To what extent do you think that this Bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities, or don't you?
Huw David: The state's paramount role is to protect children from harm. That is our legal responsibility, it's our moral responsibility, and we will discharge that. And there is obviously a view—it's a view that is enshrined in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child—that physical punishment, physical harm to a child is harm to a child, and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that. That would be the position of the Welsh Local Government Association, and we also respect the mandate that Members of the National Assembly for Wales have too. And we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment, effectively, and we'd support parents in that. We do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily. We believe this action reflects a cultural change, a sea change that's taken place in Wales over the last 30 to 40 years, where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves, they do not support it, and we believe this is actually a reflection of what has happened in Welsh society. We support Assembly Members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children's rights are protected across Wales.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, I've got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the Bill and its intentions, and so on. Do you foresee any unintended consequences for this Bill?
Huw David: If we implement it carefully, if we implement it with the right resources, then I hope not. I think not. But as with every piece of legislation, it is about the implementation, it is about the cultural change as well, and that's why I cannot overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available, because our social services departments—children's social services in particular—are overstretched. They are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect. We are having record numbers of contacts from police, from teachers, from doctors and, of course, from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect. And obviously, we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children. Equally, though, we don't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems, but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes, and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes, so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to, for their safety, take them from their birth families to protect them. And the reality is, in Wales, that we are doing that to more children than we've done for a long time, and the numbers are growing across Wales. And that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse, because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact, and the facts are there. So, I don't want that focus to be lost, but, of course, we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation.
Dawn Bowden AM: That rise that you talk about here, is that due to more interventions, greater awareness, more incidents? I'm trying to link this to the Bill in terms of whether the Bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas.
Sally Jenkins: On the reasons for the rise in the numbers of looked-after children in Wales, which are higher than those in England, and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities, the work of the care crisis review, which was completed last year; the work of Isabelle Trowler, who's the chief social worker in England; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months; and currently the public law working group, under the auspices of the president of the family court, would all indicate that it's multifactorial. So, what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across England and Wales. What you can't do is identify a single reason. There have been headlines that have said, 'Is it increased austerity?' That is clearly a part of this. Is it in Wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of, for example, domestic abuse? Is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households? All of that research would say it's all of those things. And then, when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary, changes in our police service, but also changes in our preventative services, you've got that whole range of elements. And there is going on across the local authorities and Welsh Government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that, and then to ameliorate that. Children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care, but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we're able to protect them, firstly, and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them. So, there is no simple answer unfortunately. I think, in terms of this Bill and unintended consequences, I agree absolutely with everything that Huw has said. My job is around children at that far end, but what this Bill does is it brings clarity. It brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end. It takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be okay, and I think that's important to hang on to.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Sorry.
Alastair Birch: One unintended consequences is that I think that there will be an increased focus on the UNCRC. And, in terms of children having a discussion around this point, children need to be part of that discussion. It's something that affects them. And a key aspect of education is the voice of the child. It has become significantly—. It's changed completely in the last 10 years, and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements.
Dawn Bowden AM: Would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools?
Alastair Birch: Anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it's very powerful for the children. And it improves their educational experiences, encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues, the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter, which are significant, and it's our educational professionals that are facing this day-in, day-out. They've become a very highly trained workforce, they're ACE aware, they're trauma aware, and anything that focuses, even increases, their professionalism and understanding around a particular point, and also—. So it's a positive unintended consequence, shall we say, that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some specific questions now on implementation for social services, from Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair. If this Bill becomes law, would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked?
Sally Jenkins: We already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police, depending on the circumstances. Interestingly, I'm picking—
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What, if a child is being smacked now?
Sally Jenkins: Yes. If a child is being smacked now, we would ask that people contact. We have a duty to report, as professionals. But if you were walking out, and you saw something happening to a child, in the same way as if you saw something to an adult.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Right.
Sally Jenkins: So, I think that the challenge is about—we've all probably, sadly, witnessed incidents in the doctor's reception, or in a supermarket, and we've failed to do something about it. And I think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that, realistically, when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance. I think we can't ignore the fact that a child is being assaulted in those circumstances.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Thank you. A campaign opposing this Bill, Be Reasonable Wales, have said that 'If the law is changed, the consequences for parents will be considerable.' It also says, 'Anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child—under the new definition—' so, I suppose you could argue, a minor tap— 'will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma.' To what extent is this accurate, and, also, will thresholds for social services intervention change if the Bill is enacted?
Sally Jenkins: There are a number of parts to that. Firstly, in terms of long-term social services intervention in a family's life, I think, for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have long-term intervention currently, even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse. What we do is we go in for short periods in families' lives, to support them to work with their strengths, to work with them and their family members. It's not about us going into families, whatever some of the public perception may be. Our aim is to get in and get out. So, in terms of long-term intervention, what we want is for families to find their own solutions. We want families to be able to work with each other, and together, and local community support, and preventative services, to be able to address issues. This is not about punitive approaches from social services. So, that's the first element. In terms of thresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle. We recognise that's likely to happen. Because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently; this is not a defence that's being used with great frequency, this is not something that is happening. And if we look at the data, we know that the incidents of children, and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment, has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years. So it's diminishing as it is.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, on that one then, is there a need for legislation that will—obviously there'll be resources for the Welsh Government and there'll be resources out of hours and things like that—is there a need for legislation if, as you say, natural behaviour and the culture is changing? Let's be honest, as you've rightly pointed out, in social services—I know in my own authority—in your own authority, you're saying that even now you're working with the police, on systematic failings within the system.
Sally Jenkins: Two things. Firstly, we want legislation that reflects our society—we don't want the two to be out of kilter. That would be my first natural response: surely our legislation should be reflective of what our world is. It shouldn't be that we've got these rather confusing elements running in parallel, and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see. I think the other element is that, again, this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society, about how we care for our children. We've got there naturally; we've got there by the change that's happened in Wales over the last 15 to 20 years. What this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively, from a strength-based approach, should care for our children, bearing in mind what's required of us in terms of the UNCRC.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Are there any comments from anyone else?
Huw David: Simply to say that I think that, in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted—seriously assaulted and abused by their parents, which goes on on a daily basis—that is already covered by existing legislation. But at the moment, they don't know, because they could be being told—and they probably are being told—by their parents that's it's okay, that they can smack their child and that that's acceptable. They don't know the difference. A young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is—. And if you asked most parents, and in fact lots of professionals, they would not be able to tell you, and probably most of you wouldn't be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold—
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, where's that line.
Huw David: Well, at the moment, we don't know where that line is. That vulnerable child, at home, being abused by their parents, does not know where that line is. And they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to Childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is. So, that would be a step forward. I do recognise, though, that what we don't want to do—and the last thing any of us want to do—is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children. That is why we're saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents. And to be clear, there is no way that we want long-term involvement in any child's life, but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents. That is not going to be the result of this legislation, trust me, because we don't want to be involved in—we haven't got the resources to be involved in children's lives. The social worker or the police officer—if they become involved, then there would be a proportionate response to that, and there'll also be a test about whether or not that is progressed. So, if there is an allegation—if this legislation is passed—then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken, and as with any allegation of the law being broken, there would be a proportionate response, as there is now.
Lynne Neagle AM: And the next question does relate to the practical response to that. Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes. Can you outline the practical ways in which social services' interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment? Who's going to make those decisions?
Sally Jenkins: That will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making. Interestingly, the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary. So, we get a very, very large number of—. It will be happening now; sitting in the civic centre in Newport City Council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight. It's 10 o'clock, so they're assessing them now, as we speak. And an awful lot of those will have no further action from the local authority.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But will they be investigated?
Sally Jenkins: No. There will be no action. There are countless referrals made by agencies to local authorities that we take no action on.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, if there's an increase as a result of greater awareness—
Sally Jenkins: What happens is there is a paper assessment of them. There's a look at what's happened, who's involved, what the police have reported, and there's work being done with the police to improve that. Because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we're not using huge amounts of time to look at that, but what comes to us is what we act on. So, there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process. But I suppose, to pick up, each incident will be looked at, each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate, as Huw says, to look at what's happened and then investigated.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sally, can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on?
Sally Jenkins: We get countless referrals, for example, where there's been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child wasn't present in the property and we then haven't taken action. It’ll be where the level of harm that’s perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from children's services.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I’m pretty cynical about assessment, because, you know, I have people come in who are benefit claimants where, when they’ve been assessed, the whole process has been very flawed and I’ve had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf. So—
Sally Jenkins: Assessment processes within social—
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But if you're struggling now with those assessments—
Sally Jenkins: Assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. So, we have within what we carry out, I suppose, that kind of initial look, that look at the information, what else do we know about that family—
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And are they qualified people that are doing this?
Sally Jenkins: Yes, absolutely.
Huw David: And, in fact, in lots of places in Wales now, it’s a multi-agency assessment. So, it’s a joint assessment carried out with police professionals and health professionals.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on, if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked?
Sally Jenkins: If something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there, we would look at it. We would clearly look at it and we would take some sort of action.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Even now, before the legislation?
Sally Jenkins: Yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: Can you ask a final question? And I'm going to have to appeal for brief answers, because we've got a lot of ground to cover.
Huw David: Just very quickly, there may be no action from social services, but it doesn’t mean that we don’t offer support. So, the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services, for example—
Sally Jenkins: Or prevention.
Huw David: —or prevention services. So, we would not say, if we were aware, for example, that there was domestic abuse at a home, ‘There’s no role for children’s social services’, because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm, but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support. So, just to be clear about that. And that’s a process that happens in every social services department in the UK, and it’s happened for a very long time, and, in fact, it’s reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as Assembly Members.
Lynne Neagle AM: And are those services there, Huw? Because I’m very acutely aware of the pressure on local government. Are the services there? Is there sufficient resource in things like Families First? Because what I’m hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services.
Huw David: There’s not enough of those services, and, obviously—you may have heard me saying this before—I think we need to invest more in those services, and I hope you invest more in the services, because, obviously, prevention is better than cure. And those pressures that Sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away; they’re only increasing by the day, actually, and I would want us to be able to offer those services now. Because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse—we’ll probably have another referral off them in a couple of months’ time, and that could escalate. And what I’d rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that, in six months, we're not going back and saying that we've got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk. But those services need additional investment.
Sally Jenkins: I appreciate that time is of the essence, but, just really quickly in relation to that, it’s not just social services. So, for example, there are developments like Encompass, which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across Gwent and across other areas, which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident, not expecting the school to do anything per se, but to be aware, to be able to offer care for that child.
Alastair Birch: Can I add to that? Operation Encompass I know in Gwent has been operational, and we started it in Pembrokeshire 18 months ago. We as a local authority—and it’ll be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening, and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in, before 9 o’clock, so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point. So, you know, schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Janet, your last question, please.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: The Bill's explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered. It says there is also potential to create extra demand on out-of-hours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported, and in order to support safeguarding measures. Have you assessed how this Bill will impact on emergency and out-of-hours local authority services?
Sally Jenkins: We have considered that, and again I think that's something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation. We have out-of-hours provision, we have emergency duty teams already across Wales that operate 24/7. There's no doubt that they exist and they work very closely with our police colleagues.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Are they overstretched at the moment?
Sally Jenkins: I think in the same way as all of social services is. If we were offered additional resource, we are going to take that. But are they working in a way that protects children day in, day out, and vulnerable adults? Yes, they are, and they will continue to do so.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We've got some specific questions now on the impact on education from Jayne Bryant.
Jayne Bryant AM: Thank you, Chair. Good morning. Alastair, you've already mentioned about awareness raising and training, which will be key with educational professionals. How confident are you that teachers and others working in those educational settings will be clear about how to support the implementation of this Bill, if enacted?
Alastair Birch: Training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear. The universal tier 1 training is there, and all local authorities in Wales will implement that. In that level of general safeguarding awareness and training, the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report. That will remain the same. The thresholds for social care, that's their responsibility. That duty to report will always be there. It says in 'Keeping learners safe', which is the bible in terms of education professionals, that there's a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service. So, the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools, who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm—because that's what we're talking about—they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made. There's always the collation of safeguarding information, where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas, which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child, and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police. So, that awareness—it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there. If they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team. They will make the judgment on the threshold because they are the professionals. They have the multi-agency awareness of how that meets the threshold. But in terms of education, it'll be that awareness, making sure that there's clarity. If there's anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on, it'll need to go into 'Keeping learners safe', which at the moment is being rewritten. So, there would have to be some new possible information there relating to this. But as long as there's clarity, and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened, as long as it's clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm, then that report will always be there and will always need to be made. It's making sure—and I'll echo what my colleague said, Huw—that the services are key for families. Schools are absolutely fundamental in that support for the families. They have those relationships with the families. I know there was discussion around professional trust. On a daily basis, professionals are working on that trust with parents, because they are the ones that can engage with those families. The family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families, with multiple leads and supporting the children—they are fundamental, and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well. So, anything that's preventative. That is already happening in schools and is effective, and is shown to be effective, and has an evidence base—we'd always support that that would continue to be invested in. So, that's really my answer.
Jayne Bryant AM: Okay. And you were saying about how important trust is as well, but do you think that there's a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services, which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust?
Alastair Birch: I don't think it's a matter of mistrust—it's a matter of, you know, if a professional believes, based on the evidence that they have, because they're working with that child every day, that there is significant harm to that child, they are under a duty to report that to social care. So, part of the work is with families, and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent. That consent is a key element of this, and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually, 'You need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them.' Some of the NFAs—the ones that don't get referred at threshold—it will come back to school for, possibly, some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect. So, I don't think—. The trust in the professionals—it's actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the all-Wales safeguarding procedures. That's what engenders trust in a professional workforce.
Jayne Bryant AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We're going to move on now to some questions about the importance of awareness raising from Siân Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning. In looking at your written evidence, you say that we must make it very clear to parents, guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents, and that is clearly very important for you. How do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work?
Sally Jenkins: I think that's really broad. Obviously, colleagues in education, colleagues in social care, colleagues in preventative services, but also Welsh Government and the National Assembly, in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really, really key. If you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run, notably in relation to violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness—I think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness. We also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness. We have existing preventative services, we have all our universal services, we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards. So, there are a number of avenues that we could then explore. In terms of not wishing to criminalise, I think if we look at the numbers, they are very, very small. And I think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or isn't likely to happen once or if this Bill ever gets to the point of Royal Assent—they are small numbers who currently use this defence. It is about that wider issue of awareness raising, and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Do you, therefore, believe that this needs to be on the face of the Bill? That is, you don't say this in your evidence. I'd like to know your opinion on that. Scotland is going to be making it a duty for Scottish Ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the Bill. So far, the Welsh Government says that we don't need to do that in Wales. Wouldn't it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the Bill, for example as it was with the Human Transplantation (Wales) Act 2013? There was a duty in that Act for Ministers to promote transplantation. Surely, that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the Bill. Do you have an opinion on that?
Huw David: Well, Welsh Government have given that commitment, and I know the Welsh Government honour every commitment that they make—[Laughter.]
Sian Gwenllian AM: That's why I'm asking.
Huw David: I don't know whether that is necessary—I'm not a legislator. I think that there's obviously an inherent interest in Welsh Government raising awareness, because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful, otherwise we will have parents who feel that they're being criminalised, and that's the last thing we want. I think it's worthy of consideration, but, as I say, I'm not a legislator or a lawyer, so I don't know what implications that will have long term. But to be fair to Welsh Government, I think that commitment is one that I'm sure will be honoured, because Welsh Government will want to make a success of this Bill if it does receive Royal Assent.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. But is it clear who would pay for all of that?
Huw David: I've suddenly changed my mind—[Laughter.] I think it should be a duty on Welsh Government Ministers—absolutely. I don't need to check with lawyers or legislators. There we go. And that's the WLGA position; I don't need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either. [Laughter.]
Sian Gwenllian AM: Wouldn't it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the Bill that awareness raising had to happen? It would be clearer, then, for local authorities and people in the front-line services what needs to happen.
Sally Jenkins: I'm going to echo Huw. [Laughter.]
Sian Gwenllian AM: I thought you might. Okay, fine.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We're moving on now, then, to the contentious issue of resources and we've got some questions from Hefin.
Hefin David AM: Sally Jenkins, you said that the purpose of the Bill is to bring clarity and to remove what is a little-used defence. Isn't this an expensive way of doing that?
Sally Jenkins: I don't think so, no. I think that our children deserve the best legislation.
Hefin David AM: But introducing this legislation diverts finances from other areas of children's services—or doesn't?
Sally Jenkins: Well, I would say, no, I don't think it will divert resources from children's services. Firstly, going back to the comment made, I think, proportionally, this is a very small number of cases. It's a very small number of existing cases that go through in terms of prosecution, or consideration for prosecution. We know that it's likely, from some of the work that we've already done, that it's not opening floodgates for a sudden sea of referrals to children's services—that's not the way this is going to be, because the numbers are not out there because of the changes that have already happened in Welsh family life and Welsh society. So, I think as part of the implementation phase, we need to have a really clear understanding of the trajectory of those costs and what's likely to happen over the first six months, 12 months in terms of people's awareness and understanding and what is referred and how that's worked. But in terms of a huge number, no, I don't anticipate it being that.
Hefin David AM: But the costs wouldn't just be directed to the number of referrals and the number of cases raised, it's the cost around that, with training of staff, awareness—all those extra additional costs that always come with legislation. Is it too much? Is it—?
Sally Jenkins: No. And I agree with that—that there clearly are—but if you think, many of those things will be aligned with work we are already doing, but it brings a clarity to that work. So, our teachers, our social workers, our health workers, our police officers already get substantial training around child protection, around safeguarding, around adverse childhood experiences and around a trauma-informed approach to children. What this does is it layers a clarity on that. But rather than having a part of that training, which has to deal with this as an aspect—that is no longer there; it is a clear message for all professions.
Hefin David AM: I fully appreciate that, and in the briefing note you've given us, you've outlined the pressures on social services. So, do you think this is another way of getting money into social services?
Sally Jenkins: If this was a way of getting money into—. I can think of better ways, but I don't think this is it. No, I mean, I absolutely do not think that. I think this is a clear commitment to the rights of children in Wales; this is not about levering additional resources into children's services. Oh that it was so simple.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And, do you think those costs are quantifiable?
Sally Jenkins: I think we are currently looking at work and are doing work across my own local authority and across two others to look at breaking down those costs, not just for local authority, but also for health, for police and for Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru. So, there is work currently taking place to try to quantify those costs.
Hefin David AM: Okay. I think there was a bit about local authorities that Siân—
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Siân Gwenllian has got a question on resources.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, just to carry on from that, in a way. The explanatory memorandum that accompanies the Bill talks about the unknown costs for different agencies. You mentioned there that you're doing work around trying to identify some of those costs, but wouldn't it be useful if the explanatory memorandum did explain more about any unknown or unidentified costs, partly in order to calm some of those fears around that? Giving a title 'unidentified costs'—is that good enough?
Sally Jenkins: I think, clearly, that is a challenge, and that is work that we are participating in and are committed to completing with Welsh Government, to look at what those costs are.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And then they can be added into this.
Huw David: I think this is where it would be helpful in the committee's deliberations and where our concern would be, because the reality is we're not going to know what the costs are until it's actually implemented, because we haven't implemented this before. And, therefore, I think there needs to be a commitment that, whatever the costs are, those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the National Assembly for Wales. And whilst we don't see it as levering in additional resources, we don't think it should be at the expense of current service provision to vulnerable families in Wales, and therefore it's important that it is properly and fully resourced.
Sian Gwenllian AM: What I would argue on that is that you have to try and forecast. You say it's difficult to forecast how much this is going to cost, but we have to try and forecast that, and part of the argument for trying to have projections is to show that, perhaps, it's not going to cost that much, and that would add to the argument that, 'Okay, this is going to be fine to do and it's not going to put too much pressure on us'. Or we need to know that this is going to cost a lot to do it effectively, and therefore you have to make your argument, then, 'Well, we can't afford that, the money has to come from somewhere else.' We have to get the costs, surely.
Huw David: Yes, and we will work very closely with Welsh Government to try and establish those costs as quickly as possible. There will be some costs that we will be able to identify. So, for example, a campaign, an awareness-raising campaign, the marketing, if you like, but some of the other costs will be more difficult to establish in terms of the resource implications for front-line workers. I expressed a view that we need to see some additional investment in some of those programmes that are not targeted directly at families that would be impacted by this but support all families across Wales that have different needs, and some of that provision is universal. Obviously, my view is the more we put into that, the better. So, there's no limit to that, but I suspect Welsh Government will take a very different view to that. But I think that is something where we need to see a commitment to some additional resources. But I don't put an upper limit on that, because I don't think there's an authority in Wales, and I don't think there's a charity, a police service or a health board in Wales that doesn't think that we need to do more of that and could offer more of that if the resources were available.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've come to the end of our time, so can I thank you all for attending and for answering all of our questions? It's been a really useful and informative discussion. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again, all of you, for coming.
Huw David: And thank you for your questions and engagement. We welcome the opportunity.
Alastair Birch: Thank you very much.
Sally Jenkins: Thank you very much.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, item 3 is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Housing and Local Government—additional information for our inquiry into school funding. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Health and Social Services on in-patient child and adolescent mental health services provision, and I would like to briefly return to that when we go into private. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you. | |
doc_156 | PhD B: OK . We 're on .
Grad E: Hello ?
Professor A: OK , so uh {vocalsound} had some interesting mail from uh Dan Ellis . Actually , I think he {disfmarker} he {vocalsound} redirected it to everybody also so uh {vocalsound} the PDA mikes uh have a big bunch of energy at {disfmarker} at uh five hertz uh where this came up was that uh I was showing off these wave forms that we have on the web and {disfmarker} and uh {vocalsound} I just sort of hadn't noticed this , but that {disfmarker} the major , major component in the wave {disfmarker} in the second wave form in that pair of wave forms is actually the air conditioner .
Grad C: Huh .
Professor A: So . So . I {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I have to be more careful about using that as a {disfmarker} as a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} as a good illustration , uh , in fact it 's not , of uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} of the effects of room reverberation . It is isn't a bad illustration of the effects of uh room noise . {vocalsound} on {disfmarker} on uh some mikes uh but So . And then we had this other discussion about um {vocalsound} whether this affects the dynamic range , cuz I know , although we start off with thirty two bits , you end up with uh sixteen bits and {vocalsound} you know , are we getting hurt there ? But uh Dan is pretty confident that we 're not , that {disfmarker} that quantization error is not {disfmarker} is still not a significant {vocalsound} factor there . So . So there was a question of whether we should change things here , whether we should {vocalsound} change a capacitor on the input box for that or whether we should
PhD B: Yeah , he suggested a smaller capacitor , right ?
Professor A: Right . But then I had some other uh thing discussions with him
PhD B: For the P D
Professor A: and the feeling was {vocalsound} once we start monk monkeying with that , uh , many other problems could ha happen . And additionally we {disfmarker} we already have a lot of data that 's been collected with that , so .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor A: A simple thing to do is he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he has a {disfmarker} I forget if it {disfmarker} this was in that mail or in the following mail , but he has a {disfmarker} a simple filter , a digital filter that he suggested . We just run over the data before we deal with it .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: um The other thing that I don't know the answer to , but when people are using Feacalc here , uh whether they 're using it with the high - pass filter option or not . And I don't know if anybody knows .
Grad E: Um . {vocalsound} I could go check .
Professor A: But . Yeah . So when we 're doing all these things using our software there is {disfmarker} um if it 's {disfmarker} if it 's based on the RASTA - PLP program , {vocalsound} which does both PLP and RASTA - PLP {vocalsound} um then {vocalsound} uh there is an option there which then comes up through to Feacalc which {vocalsound} um allows you to do high - pass filtering and in general we like to do that , because of things like this and {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} it 's pretty {disfmarker} it 's not a very severe filter . Doesn't affect speech frequencies , even pretty low speech frequencies , at all , but it 's
PhD B: What 's the {pause} cut - off frequency it used ?
Professor A: Oh . I don't know I wrote this a while ago
PhD B: Is it like twenty ?
Professor A: Something like that .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor A: Yeah . I mean I think there 's some effect above twenty but it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's mild . So , I mean it probably {disfmarker} there 's probably some effect up to a hundred hertz or something but it 's {disfmarker} it 's pretty mild . I don't know in the {disfmarker} in the STRUT implementation of the stuff is there a high - pass filter or a pre pre - emphasis or something in the {disfmarker}
PhD F: Uh . I think we use a pre - emphasis . Yeah . Yeah .
Professor A: So . We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we want to go and check that in i for anything that we 're going to use the P D A mike for . {vocalsound} uh He says that there 's a pretty good roll off in the PZM mikes so {vocalsound} we don't need {disfmarker} need to worry about them one way or the other but if we do make use of the cheap mikes , {vocalsound} uh we want to be sure to do that {disfmarker} that filtering before we {vocalsound} process it . And then again if it 's uh depending on the option that the {disfmarker} our {disfmarker} our software is being run with , it 's {disfmarker} it 's quite possible that 's already being taken care of . uh But I also have to pick a different picture to show the effects of reverberation . uh
PhD B: Did somebody notice it during your talk ?
Professor A: uh No .
PhD B: Huh .
Professor A: Well . uh Well . If they made output they were {disfmarker} they were , you know {disfmarker} they were nice .
PhD B: Didn't say anything ?
Professor A: But . {vocalsound} I mean the thing is it was since I was talking about reverberation and showing this thing that was noise , it wasn't a good match , but it certainly was still uh an indication of the fact that you get noise with distant mikes . uh It 's just not a great example because not only isn't it reverberation but it 's a noise that we definitely know what to do .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: So , I mean , it doesn't take deep {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a new {disfmarker} bold new methods to get rid of uh five hertz noise , so .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor A: um {vocalsound} uh But . So it was {disfmarker} it was a bad example in that way , but it 's {disfmarker} it still is {disfmarker} it 's the real thing that we did get out of the microphone at distance , so it wasn't {vocalsound} it w it w wasn't wrong it was inappropriate . So . {vocalsound} So uh , but uh , Yeah , someone noticed it later pointed it out to me , and I went " oh , man . Why didn't I notice that ? "
PhD B: Hmm .
Professor A: um . So . {vocalsound} um So I think we 'll change our {disfmarker} our picture on the web , when we 're @ @ . One of the things I was {disfmarker} I mean , I was trying to think about what {disfmarker} what 's the best {vocalsound} way to show the difference an and I had a couple of thoughts one was , {vocalsound} that spectrogram that we show {vocalsound} is O K , but the thing is {vocalsound} the eyes uh and the {vocalsound} the brain behind them are so good at picking out patterns {vocalsound} from {disfmarker} from noise {vocalsound} that in first glance you look at them it doesn't seem like it 's that bad uh because there 's many features that are still preserved . So one thing to do might be to just take a piece of the spec uh of the spectrogram where you can see {vocalsound} that something looks different , an and blow it up , and have that be the part that 's {disfmarker} just to show as well . You know .
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor A: i i Some things are going to be hurt . um {vocalsound} Another , I was thinking of was um {vocalsound} taking some spectral slices , like uh {disfmarker} like we look at with the recognizer , and look at the spectrum or cepstrum that you get out of there , and the {disfmarker} the uh , um , {vocalsound} the reverberation uh does make it {disfmarker} does change that . And so maybe {disfmarker} maybe that would be more obvious .
PhD B: Hmm .
Grad C: Spectral slices ?
Professor A: Yeah .
Grad C: W w what d what do you mean ?
Professor A: Well , I mean um all the recognizers look at frames . So they {disfmarker} they look at {disfmarker}
PhD B: So like one instant in time .
Professor A: Yeah , look at a {disfmarker}
Grad C: OK .
Professor A: So it 's , yeah , at one point in time or uh twenty {disfmarker} over twenty milliseconds or something , {vocalsound} you have a spectrum or a cepstrum .
Grad C: OK .
Professor A: That 's what I meant by a slice .
Grad C: I see .
Professor A: Yeah . And {vocalsound} if you look at {disfmarker}
PhD B: You could just {disfmarker} you could just throw up , you know , uh {vocalsound} the uh {disfmarker} some MFCC feature vectors . You know , one from one , one from the other , and then , you know , you can look and see how different the numbers are .
Professor A: Right . Well , that 's why I saying either {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Well , either spectrum or cepstrum
PhD B: I 'm just kidding .
Professor A: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but I think the thing is you wanna {disfmarker}
PhD B: I don't mean a graph . I mean the actual numbers .
Professor A: Oh . I see . Oh . That would be lovely , yeah .
PhD B: Yeah . " See how different these {vocalsound} sequences of numbers are ? "
Professor A: Yeah . Or I could just add them up and get a different total .
PhD B: Yeah . It 's not the square .
Professor A: OK . Uh . What else {disfmarker} wh what 's {disfmarker} what else is going on ?
PhD F: Uh , yeah . Yeah , at first I had a remark why {disfmarker} I am wondering why the PDA is always so far . I mean we are always meeting at the {vocalsound} beginning of the table and {vocalsound} the PDA 's there .
Professor A: Uh . I guess cuz we haven't wanted to move it . We {disfmarker} we could {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we could move us ,
PhD F: Yeah ?
Professor A: and .
PhD F: OK .
Grad E: That 's right .
PhD F: Well , anyway . Um . Yeah , so . Uh . Since the last meeting we 've {disfmarker} we 've tried to put together um {vocalsound} the clean low - pass um downsampling , upsampling , I mean , Uh the new filter that 's replacing the LDA filters , and also {vocalsound} the um delay issue so that {disfmarker} We considered th the {disfmarker} the delay issue on the {disfmarker} for the on - line normalization . Mmm . So we 've put together all this and then we have results that are not um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} very impressive . Well , there is no {vocalsound} real improvement .
Professor A: But it 's not wer worse and it 's better {disfmarker} better latency ,
PhD F: It 's not {disfmarker}
Professor A: right ?
PhD F: Yeah . Yeah . Well . Actually it 's better . It seems better when we look at the mismatched case but {vocalsound} I think we are like {disfmarker} like cheated here by the {disfmarker} th this problem that {vocalsound} uh in some cases when you modify slight {disfmarker} slightly modify the initial condition you end up {vocalsound} completely somewhere air somewhere else in the {disfmarker} in the space , {vocalsound} the parameters .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD F: So . Well . The other system are for instance . For Italian is at seventy - eight {vocalsound} percent recognition rate on the mismatch , and this new system has eighty - nine . But I don't think it indicates something , really . I don't {disfmarker} I don't think it means that the new system is more robust
Professor A: Uh - huh .
PhD F: or {disfmarker} It 's simply the fact that {disfmarker} Well .
Professor A: Well , the test would be if you then tried it on one of the other test sets , if {disfmarker} if it was {disfmarker}
PhD F: Y
Professor A: Right . So this was Italian , right ?
PhD F: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor A: So then if you take your changes
PhD F: It 's similar for other test sets
Professor A: and then {disfmarker}
PhD F: but I mean {vocalsound} from this se seventy - eight um percent recognition rate system , {vocalsound} I could change the transition probabilities for the {disfmarker} the first HMM and {pause} it will end up to eighty - nine also .
Professor A: Uh - huh .
PhD F: By using point five instead of point six , point four {vocalsound} as in the {disfmarker} the HTK script .
Professor A: Uh - huh . Yeah .
PhD F: So . Well . That 's {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah I looked at um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} looked at the results when Stephane did that
PhD F: Well . Eh uh {disfmarker}
PhD B: and it 's {disfmarker} it 's really wo really happens .
PhD F: This really happens .
PhD B: I mean th the only difference is you change the self - loop transition probability by a tenth of a percent
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD B: and it causes ten percent difference in the word error rate .
Professor A: A tenth of a per cent .
PhD B: Yeah . From point {disfmarker}
PhD F: Even tenth of a percent ?
PhD B: I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry
PhD F: Well , we tried {disfmarker} we tried point one ,
PhD B: f for point {disfmarker} from {disfmarker} You change at point one
PhD F: yeah .
Professor A: Oh !
PhD B: and n not tenth of a percent , one tenth ,
PhD F: Hmm .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD B: alright ? Um so from point five {disfmarker} so from point six to point five and you get ten percent better .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think it 's what you basically hypothesized in the last meeting {vocalsound} about uh it just being very {disfmarker}
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: and I think you mentioned this in your email too {disfmarker} it 's just very um {disfmarker}
PhD F: Mmm , yeah .
PhD B: you know get stuck in some local minimum and this thing throws you out of it I guess .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Well , what 's {disfmarker} what are {disfmarker} according to the rules what {disfmarker} what are we supposed to do about the transition probabilities ? Are they supposed to be point five or point six ?
PhD B: I think you 're not allowed to {disfmarker} Yeah . That 's supposed to be point six , for the self - loop .
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor A: Point {disfmarker} It 's supposed to be point six .
PhD B: Yeah . But changing it to point five I think is {disfmarker} which gives you much better results , but that 's {vocalsound} not allowed .
Professor A: But not allowed ? Yeah . OK .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD F: Yeah , but even if you use point five , I 'm not sure it will always give you the better results
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD F: on other test set or it
PhD B: Right . We only tested it on the {disfmarker} the medium mismatch ,
PhD F: on the other training set , I mean .
PhD B: right ? You said on the other cases you didn't notice {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah . But . I think , yeah . I think the reason is , yeah , I not I {disfmarker} it was in my mail I think also , {vocalsound} is the fact that the mismatch is trained only on the far microphone . Well , in {disfmarker} for the mismatched case everything is um using the far microphone training and testing , whereas for the highly mismatched , training is done on the close microphone so {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} it 's clean speech basically so you don't have this problem of local minima probably and for the well - match , it 's a mix of close microphone and distant microphone and {disfmarker} Well .
PhD B: I did notice uh something {disfmarker}
PhD F: So th I think the mismatch is the more difficult for the training part .
PhD B: Somebody , I think it was Morgan , suggested at the last meeting that I actually count to see {vocalsound} how many parameters and how many frames .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And there are uh almost one point eight million frames of training data and less than forty thousand parameters in the baseline system .
Professor A: Hmm .
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD B: So it 's very , very few parameters compared to how much training data .
Professor A: Well . Yes .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: So . And that {disfmarker} that says that we could have lots more parameters actually .
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: I did one quick experiment just to make sure I had everything worked out and I just {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh f for most of the um {disfmarker} For {disfmarker} for all of the digit models , they end up at three mixtures per state . And so I just did a quick experiment , where I changed it so it went to four and um {vocalsound} it it {disfmarker} it didn't have a r any significant effect at the uh medium mismatch and high mismatch cases and it had {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it was just barely significant for the well - matched better . Uh so I 'm r gonna run that again but {vocalsound} um with many more uh mixtures per state .
Professor A: Yeah . Cuz at forty thou I mean you could you could have uh {disfmarker} Yeah , easily four times as many {vocalsound} parameters .
PhD B: Mm - hmm . And I think also {vocalsound} just seeing what we saw {vocalsound} uh in terms of the expected duration of the silence model ? when we did this tweaking of the self - loop ? The silence model expected duration was really different .
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD B: And so in the case where {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} it had a better score , the silence model expected duration was much longer .
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD B: So it was like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it was a better match . I think {vocalsound} you know if we make a better silence model I think that will help a lot too um for a lot of these cases so but one one thing I {disfmarker} I wanted to check out before I increased the um {vocalsound} number of mixtures per state was {vocalsound} uh {vocalsound} in their {vocalsound} default training script they do an initial set of three re - estimations and then they built the silence model and then they do seven iterations then the add mixtures and they do another seven then they add mixtures then they do a final set of seven and they quit . Seven seems like a lot to me and it also makes the experiments go take a really long time I mean to do one turn - around of the well matched case takes like a day .
Professor A: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And so {vocalsound} you know in trying to run these experiments I notice , you know , it 's difficult to find machines , you know , compute the run on . And so one of the things I did was I compiled HTK for the Linux {vocalsound} machines
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: cuz we have this one from IBM that 's got like five processors in it ?
Professor A: Right .
PhD B: and so now I 'm {disfmarker} you can run stuff on that and that really helps a lot because now we 've got {vocalsound} you know , extra machines that we can use for compute . And if {disfmarker} I 'm do running an experiment right now where I 'm changing the number of iterations ? {vocalsound} from seven to three ?
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD B: just to see how it affects the baseline system . And so if we can get away with just doing three , we can do {vocalsound} many more experiments more quickly . And if it 's not a {disfmarker} a huge difference from running with seven iterations , {vocalsound} um , you know , we should be able to get a lot more experiments done .
PhD F: Hmm .
PhD B: And so . I 'll let you know what {disfmarker} what happens with that . But if we can {vocalsound} you know , run all of these back - ends f with many fewer iterations and {vocalsound} on Linux boxes we should be able to get a lot more experimenting done .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So . So I wanted to experiment with cutting down the number of iterations before I {vocalsound} increased the number of Gaussians .
Professor A: Right . Sorry . So um , how 's it going on the {disfmarker}
PhD F: Um .
Professor A: So . You {disfmarker} you did some things . They didn't improve things in a way that convinced you you 'd substantially improved anything .
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor A: But they 're not making things worse and we have reduced latency , right ?
PhD F: Yeah . But actually {disfmarker} um actually it seems to do a little bit worse for the well - matched case and we just noticed that {disfmarker} Yeah , actually the way the final score is computed is quite funny . It 's not a mean of word error rate . It 's not a weighted mean of word error rate , it 's a weighted mean of improvements .
Professor A: Uh - huh .
PhD F: So . Which means that {vocalsound} actually the weight on the well - matched is {disfmarker} Well I well what what {disfmarker} What happened is that if you have a small improvement or a small if on the well - matched case {vocalsound} it will have uh huge influence on the improvement compared to the reference because the reference system is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is quite good for {disfmarker} for the well - ma well - matched case also .
PhD B: So it {disfmarker} it weights the improvement on the well - matched case really heavily compared to the improvement on the other cases ?
PhD F: No , but it 's the weighting of the {disfmarker} of the improvement not of the error rate .
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah , and it 's hard to improve on the {disfmarker} on the best case , cuz it 's already so good , right ?
PhD F: Yeah but {pause} what I mean is that you can have a huge improvement on the H {disfmarker} HMK 's , uh like five percent uh absolute , and this will not affect the final score almost {disfmarker} Uh this will almost not affect the final score because {vocalsound} this improvement {disfmarker} because the improvement {vocalsound} uh relative to the {disfmarker} the baseline is small {disfmarker}
Professor A: So they do improvement in terms of uh accuracy ? rather than word error rate ?
PhD F: Uh . Uh improvement ?
Professor A: So {disfmarker}
PhD F: No , it 's compared to the word er it 's improvement on the word error rate ,
Professor A: OK .
PhD F: yeah . Sorry .
Professor A: So if you have uh ten percent error and you get five percent absolute uh {vocalsound} improvement then that 's fifty percent .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: OK . So what you 're saying then is that if it 's something that has a small word error rate , {vocalsound} then uh a {disfmarker} even a relatively small improvement on it , in absolute terms , {vocalsound} will show up as quite {disfmarker} quite large in this .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Is that what you 're saying ?
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor A: Yes .
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor A: OK . But yeah that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} it 's the notion of relative improvement . Word error rate .
PhD F: Yeah . Sure , but when we think about the weighting , which is point five , point three , point two , {vocalsound} it 's on absolute on {disfmarker} on relative figures ,
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD F: not {disfmarker}
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD F: So when we look at this error rate
Professor A: No . That 's why I 've been saying we should be looking at word error rate uh and {disfmarker} and not {disfmarker} not at {vocalsound} at accuracies .
PhD F: uh {disfmarker} Mmm , yeah . Mmm , yeah .
Professor A: It 's {disfmarker}
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: I mean uh we probably should have standardized on that all the way through . It 's just {disfmarker}
PhD B: Well .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: I mean , it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not that different , right ? I mean , just subtract the accuracy .
Professor A: Yeah but you 're {disfmarker} but when you look at the numbers , your sense of the relative size of things is quite different .
PhD B: I mean {disfmarker} Oh . Oh , I see . Yeah .
Professor A: If you had ninety percent uh correct {vocalsound} and five percent , five over ninety doesn't look like it 's a big difference , but {vocalsound} five over ten is {disfmarker} is big .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: So just when we were looking at a lot of numbers and {vocalsound} getting sense of what was important .
PhD B: I see . I see . Yeah . That makes sense .
Professor A: Um .
PhD F: Mmm .
Professor A: Um .
PhD F: Well anyway uh . So . Yeah . So it hurts a little bit on the well - match and yeah .
Professor A: What 's a little bit ? Like {disfmarker}
PhD F: Like , it 's difficult to say because again um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I 'm not sure I have the um {disfmarker}
PhD B: Hey Morgan ? Do you remember that Signif program that we used to use for testing signi ? Is that still valid ? I {disfmarker} I 've been using that .
Professor A: Yeah . Yeah , it was actually updated .
PhD B: OK .
Professor A: Uh . {vocalsound} Jeff updated it some years ago
PhD B: Oh , it was . Oh , I shoul
Professor A: and {disfmarker} and uh cleaned it up made some things better in it . So .
PhD B: OK . I should find that new one . I just use my old one from {vocalsound} ninety - two or whatever
Professor A: Yeah , I 'm sure it 's not that different but {disfmarker} but he {disfmarker} {vocalsound} he uh {disfmarker} he was a little more rigorous , as I recall .
PhD B: OK .
PhD F: Right . So it 's around , like , point five . No , point six {comment} uh percent absolute on Italian {disfmarker}
Professor A: Worse .
PhD F: Worse , yep .
Professor A: Out of what ? I mean . s
PhD F: Uh well we start from ninety - four point sixty - four , and we go to ninety - four point O four .
Professor A: Uh - huh . So that 's six {disfmarker} six point th
PhD F: Uh .
PhD B: Ninety - three point six four , right ? is the baseline .
PhD F: Oh , no , I 've ninety - four . Oh , the baseline , you mean .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD F: Well I don't {disfmarker} I 'm not talking about the baseline here .
PhD B: Oh . Oh . I 'm sorry .
PhD F: I uh {disfmarker} My baseline is the submitted system .
PhD B: Ah ! OK . Ah , ah .
PhD F: Hmm .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD B: Sorry .
PhD F: Oh yeah . For Finnish , we start to ninety - three point eight - four and we go to ninety - three point seventy - four . And for Spanish we are {disfmarker} we were at ninety - five point O five and we go to ninety - three - s point sixty one .
Professor A: OK , so we are getting hurt somewhat .
PhD F: So .
Professor A: And is that wh what {disfmarker} do you know what piece {disfmarker} you 've done several changes here . Uh , do you know what pie
PhD F: Yeah . I guess {disfmarker} I guess it 's {disfmarker} it 's the filter . Because nnn , well uh we don't have complete result , but the filter {disfmarker} So the filter with the shorter delay hurts on Italian well - matched , which {disfmarker} And , yeah . And the other things , like um {vocalsound} downsampling , upsampling , don't seem to hurt and {vocalsound} the new on - line normalization , neither .
PhD B: I 'm {disfmarker}
PhD F: So .
PhD B: I 'm really confused about something . If we saw that making a small change like , you know , a tenth , to the self - loop had a huge effect , {vocalsound} can we really make any conclusions about differences in this stuff ?
PhD F: Mm - hmm . Yeah that 's th Yeah .
PhD B: I mean , especially when they 're this small . I mean .
PhD F: I think we can be completely fooled by this thing , but {disfmarker} I don't know .
Professor A: Well , yeah .
PhD F: So . There is first this thing , and then the {disfmarker} yeah , I computed the um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} like , the confidence level on the different test sets . And for the well - matched they are around um {vocalsound} point six uh percent . For the mismatched they are around like let 's say one point five percent . And for the well - m uh HM they are also around one point five .
Professor A: But {disfmarker} OK , so you {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these degradations you were talking about were on the well - matched case
PhD F: So .
Professor A: Uh . Do the {disfmarker} does the new filter make things uh better or worse for the other cases ?
PhD F: Yeah . But . Uh . About the same . It doesn't hurt . Yeah .
Professor A: Doesn't hurt , but doesn't get a little better , or something .
PhD F: No .
Professor A: No . OK , so {vocalsound} um I guess the argument one might make is that , " Yeah , if you looked at one of these cases {vocalsound} and you jiggle something and it changes {vocalsound} then uh you 're not quite sure what to make of it . But when you look across a bunch of these and there 's some {disfmarker} some pattern , um {disfmarker} I mean , so eh h here 's all the {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if in all these different cases {vocalsound} it never gets better , and there 's significant number of cases where it gets worse , {vocalsound} then you 're probably {pause} hurting things , {vocalsound} I would say . So um {vocalsound} I mean at the very least that would be a reasonably prediction of what would happen with {disfmarker} with a different test set , that you 're not jiggling things with . So I guess the question is if you can do better than this . If you can {disfmarker} if we can approximate {vocalsound} the old numbers while still keeping the latency down .
PhD F: Mmm . Yeah .
Professor A: Uh , so . Um . What I was asking , though , is uh {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} what 's {disfmarker} what 's the level of communication with uh {vocalsound} the O G I gang now , about this and {disfmarker}
PhD F: Well , we are exchanging mail as soon as we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we have significant results .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD F: Um . Yeah . For the moment , they are working on integrating {vocalsound} the um {vocalsound} spectral subtraction apparently from Ericsson .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Um . Yeah . And so . Yeah . We are working on our side on other things like {vocalsound} uh also trying a sup spectral subtraction but of {disfmarker} of our own , I mean , another {vocalsound} spectral substraction .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Um . Yeah . So I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's OK . It 's going {disfmarker}
Professor A: Is there any further discussion about this {disfmarker} this idea of {disfmarker} of having some sort of source code control ?
PhD F: Yeah . Well . For the moment they 're {disfmarker} uh everybody 's quite um {disfmarker} There is this Eurospeech deadline , so .
Professor A: I see .
PhD F: Um . And . Yeah . But yeah . As soon as we have something that 's significant and that 's better than {disfmarker} than what was submitted , we will fix {disfmarker} fix the system and {disfmarker} But we 've not discussed it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} this yet , yeah .
Professor A: Yeah . Sounds like a great idea but {disfmarker} but I think that {disfmarker} that um {vocalsound} he 's saying people are sort of scrambling for a Eurospeech deadline .
PhD F: Mmm .
Professor A: But that 'll be uh , uh done in a week . So , maybe after {vocalsound} this next one .
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD B: Wow ! Already a week ! Man !
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD B: You 're right . That 's amazing .
Professor A: Yeah . Anybo - anybody in the {disfmarker} in this group do doing anything for Eurospeech ?
PhD F: S
Professor A: Or , is that what {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah we are {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We are trying to {disfmarker} to do something with the Meeting Recorder digits ,
Professor A: Right .
PhD F: and {disfmarker} But yeah . Yeah . And the good thing is that {pause} there is this first deadline ,
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD F: and , well , some people from OGI are working on a paper for this , but there is also the um {vocalsound} special session about th Aurora which is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh which has an extended deadline . So . The deadline is in May .
Professor A: For uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Oh , for Eurospeech ?
PhD F: For th Yeah .
Professor A: Oh !
PhD F: So f only for the experiments on Aurora . So it {disfmarker} it 's good ,
Professor A: Oh , a special dispensation .
PhD F: yeah .
Professor A: That 's great .
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Where is Eurospeech this year ?
PhD F: It 's in Denmark .
Professor A: Aalborg {disfmarker} Aalborg uh
PhD B: Oh .
Professor A: So the deadline {disfmarker} When 's the deadline ? When 's the deadline ?
PhD F: Hmm ? I think it 's the thirteenth of May .
Professor A: That 's great ! It 's great . So we should definitely get something in for that .
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor A: But on meeting digits , maybe there 's {disfmarker} Maybe .
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor A: Maybe .
PhD F: So it would be for the first deadline .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD F: Nnn .
Professor A: Yeah . So , I mean , I {disfmarker} I think that you could certainly start looking at {disfmarker} at the issue uh but {disfmarker} but uh {vocalsound} I think it 's probably , on s from what Stephane is saying , it 's {disfmarker} it 's unlikely to get sort of active participation from the two sides until after they 've {disfmarker}
PhD B: Well I could at least {disfmarker} Well , I 'm going to be out next week but I could {pause} try to look into like this uh CVS over the web . That seems to be a very popular {vocalsound} way of {pause} people distributing changes and {disfmarker} over , you know , multiple sites and things
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: so maybe {vocalsound} if I can figure out how do that easily and then pass the information on to everybody so that it 's {vocalsound} you know , as easy to do as possible and {disfmarker} and people don't {disfmarker} it won't interfere with {comment} their regular work , then maybe that would be good . And I think we could use it for other things around here too . So .
Professor A: Good .
Grad C: That 's cool . And if you 're interested in using CVS , I 've set it up here ,
PhD B: Oh great .
Grad C: so .
PhD B: OK .
Grad C: um j
PhD B: I used it a long time ago but it 's been a while so maybe I can ask you some questions .
Grad C: Oh . So . I 'll be away tomorrow and Monday but I 'll be back on Tuesday or Wednesday .
PhD B: OK .
Professor A: Yeah . Dave , the other thing , actually , is {disfmarker} is this business about this wave form . Maybe you and I can talk a little bit at some point about {vocalsound} coming up with a better {vocalsound} uh demonstration of the effects of reverberation for our web page , cuz uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} the uh {vocalsound} um I mean , actually the {disfmarker} the uh It made a good {disfmarker} good audio demonstration because when we could play that clip the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the really {vocalsound} obvious difference is that you can hear two voices and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} in the second one and only hear {disfmarker}
PhD B: Maybe we could just {pause} like , talk into a cup .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD B: Some good reverb .
Professor A: No , I mean , it sound {disfmarker} it sounds pretty reverberant , but I mean you can't {disfmarker} when you play it back in a room with a {disfmarker} you know a big room , {vocalsound} nobody can hear that difference really .
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor A: They hear that it 's lower amplitude and they hear there 's a second voice ,
Grad C: Uh - huh .
Professor A: um {vocalsound} but uh that {disfmarker} actually that makes for a perfectly good demo because that 's a real obvious thing , that you hear two voices .
PhD B: But not of reverberation .
Professor A: Yeah .
Grad C: A boom .
Professor A: Well that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's OK . But for the {disfmarker} the visual , just , you know , I 'd like to have uh {vocalsound} uh , you know , the spectrogram again ,
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor A: because you 're {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're visual {vocalsound} uh abilities as a human being are so good {vocalsound} you can pick out {disfmarker} you know , you {disfmarker} you look at the good one , you look at the cru the screwed up one , and {disfmarker} and you can see the features in it without trying to @ @ {disfmarker}
PhD B: I noticed that in the pictures .
Professor A: yeah .
PhD B: I thought " hey , you know th " I {disfmarker} My initial thought was " this is not too bad ! "
Professor A: Right . But you have to {disfmarker} you know , if you look at it closely , you see " well , here 's a place where this one has a big formant {disfmarker} uh uh formant {disfmarker} maj major formants here are {disfmarker} {vocalsound} are moving quite a bit . " And then you look in the other one and they look practically flat .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: So I mean you could {disfmarker} that 's why I was thinking , in a section like that , you could take a look {disfmarker} look at just that part of the spectrogram and you could say " Oh yeah . This {disfmarker} this really distorted it quite a bit . "
PhD B: Yeah . The main thing that struck me in looking at those two spectrograms was the difference in the high frequencies . It looked like {vocalsound} for the one that was farther away , you know , it really {disfmarker} everything was attenuated
Professor A: Right .
PhD B: and {disfmarker} I mean that was the main visual thing that I noticed .
Professor A: Right . But it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh {disfmarker} So . Yeah . So there are {disfmarker} clearly are spectral effects . Since you 're getting all this indirect energy , then a lot of it does have {disfmarker} have uh {vocalsound} reduced high frequencies . But um the other thing is the temporal courses of things really are changed , and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and uh we want to show that , in some obvious way . The reason I put the wave forms in there was because {vocalsound} uh they {disfmarker} they do look quite different . Uh . And so I thought " Oh , this is good . " but I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I just uh {disfmarker} After {disfmarker} after uh they were put in there I didn't really look at them anymore , cuz I just {disfmarker} they were different . So {vocalsound} I want something that has a {disfmarker} is a more interesting explanation for why they 're different . Um .
Grad C: Oh . So maybe we can just substitute one of these wave forms and um {vocalsound} then do some kind of zoom in on the spectrogram on an interesting area .
Professor A: Something like that . Yeah .
Grad C: Uh - huh .
Professor A: The other thing that we had in there that I didn't like was that um {vocalsound} the most obvious characteristic of the difference uh when you listen to it is that there 's a second voice , and the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the uh {vocalsound} cuts that we have there actually don't correspond to the full wave form . It 's just the first {disfmarker} I think there was something where he was having some trouble getting so much in , or . I {disfmarker} I forget the reason behind it . But {vocalsound} it {disfmarker} it 's um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's the first six seconds or something {vocalsound} of it and it 's in {vocalsound} the seventh or eighth second or something where @ @ the second voice comes in . So we {disfmarker} we would like to actually see {vocalsound} the voice coming in , too , I think , since that 's the most obvious thing {pause} when you listen to it .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: So . Um .
PhD F: Uh , yeah . Yeah . I brought some {disfmarker} I don't know if {disfmarker} {vocalsound} some {vocalsound} figures here . Well . I start {disfmarker} we started to work on spectral subtraction . And {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} the preliminary results were very bad .
Professor A: Uh - huh .
PhD F: So the thing that we did is just to add spectral subtraction before this , the Wall uh process , which contains LDA on - line normalization . And it hurts uh a lot .
Professor A: Uh - huh .
PhD F: And so we started to look at {disfmarker} at um things like this , which is , well , it 's {disfmarker} Yeah . So you have the C - zero parameters for one uh Italian utterance .
PhD D: You can @ @ .
PhD F: And I plotted this for two channels . Channel zero is the close mic microphone , and channel one is the distant microphone . And it 's perfectly synchronized , so . And the sentence contain only one word , which is " Due " And it can't clearly be seen . Where {disfmarker} where is it ?
Professor A: Uh - huh .
PhD F: Where is the word ?
PhD B: This is {disfmarker} this is ,
Grad E: Hmm .
PhD B: oh , a plot of C - zero ,
PhD F: So .
PhD B: the energy .
PhD F: This is a plot of C - zero , uh when we don't use spectral substraction , and when there is no on - line normalization .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: So . There is just some filtering with the LDA and {vocalsound} and some downsampling , upsampling .
PhD B: C - zero is the close talking ? {disfmarker}
PhD F: So .
PhD B: uh the close channel ?
PhD F: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD B: and s channel one is the {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah . So C - zero is very clean , actually .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD F: Uh then when we apply mean normalization it looks like the second figure , though it is not . Which is good . Well , the noise part is around zero
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} And then the third figure is what happens when we apply mean normalization and variance normalization . So . What we can clearly see is that on the speech portion {vocalsound} the two channel come {disfmarker} becomes very close , but also what happens on the noisy portion is that the variance of the noise is {disfmarker}
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: This is still being a plot of C - zero ? OK .
PhD F: Yeah . This is still C - zero .
PhD B: Can I ask um what does variance normalization do ? w What is the effect of that ?
Professor A: Normalizes the variance .
PhD F: So it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD B: I mean
PhD F: It normalized th the standard deviation .
PhD B: y Yeah .
PhD F: So it {disfmarker}
PhD B: No , I understand that ,
PhD F: You {disfmarker} you get an estimate of the standard deviation .
PhD B: but I mean {disfmarker}
PhD F: That 's
PhD B: No .
PhD F: um {disfmarker}
PhD B: No , I understand what it is , but I mean , what does it {disfmarker} what 's {disfmarker} what is
PhD F: Yeah but .
PhD B: uh {disfmarker}
Professor A: What 's the rationale ?
PhD B: We Yeah . Yeah . Why {disfmarker} why do it ?
PhD F: Uh .
Professor A: Well , I mean , because {vocalsound} everything uh {disfmarker} If you have a system based on Gaussians , everything is based on means and variances .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor A: So if there 's an overall {vocalsound} reason {disfmarker} You know , it 's like uh if you were doing uh image processing and in some of the pictures you were looking at , uh there was a lot of light uh and {disfmarker} and in some , there was low light ,
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: you know , you would want to adjust for that in order to compare things .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: And the variance is just sort of like the next moment , you know ? So uh {vocalsound} what if um one set of pictures was taken uh so that throughout the course it was {disfmarker} went through daylight and night uh {vocalsound} um um ten times , another time it went thr I mean i is , you know , how {disfmarker} how much {disfmarker} {vocalsound} how much vari
PhD B: Oh , OK .
Professor A: Or no . I guess a better example would be {vocalsound} how much of the light was coming in from outside rather than artificial light . So if it was a lot {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if more was coming from outside , then there 'd be the bigger effect of the {disfmarker} of the {disfmarker} of the change in the {disfmarker} So every mean {disfmarker} every {disfmarker} all {disfmarker} all of the {disfmarker} the parameters that you have , especially the variances , are going to be affected by the overall variance .
PhD B: Oh , OK . Uh - huh .
Professor A: And so , in principle , you {disfmarker} if you remove that source , then , you know , you can {disfmarker}
PhD B: I see . OK . So would {disfmarker} the major effect is {disfmarker} that you 're gonna get is by normalizing the means ,
Professor A: That 's the first order but {disfmarker} thing ,
PhD B: but it may help {disfmarker} First - order effects .
Professor A: but then the second order is {disfmarker} is the variances
PhD B: And it may help to do the variance . OK .
Professor A: because , again , if you {disfmarker} if you 're trying to distinguish between E and B
PhD B: OK .
Professor A: if it just so happens that the E 's {vocalsound} were a more {disfmarker} you know , were recorded when {disfmarker} when the energy was {disfmarker} was {disfmarker} was larger or something ,
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor A: or the variation in it was larger , {vocalsound} uh than with the B 's , then this will be {disfmarker} give you some {disfmarker} some bias .
PhD B:
Professor A: So the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's removing these sources of variability in the data {vocalsound} that have nothing to do with the linguistic component .
PhD B: OK .
PhD F: Mmm .
PhD B: Gotcha . OK . Sorry to interrupt .
Professor A: But the {disfmarker} the uh {disfmarker} but let me as ask {disfmarker} ask you something .
PhD F: Yep . And it {disfmarker} and this {disfmarker}
Professor A: i is {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} If you have a good voice activity detector , isn't {disfmarker} isn't it gonna pull that out ?
PhD F: Yeah . Sure . If they are good . Yeah . Well what it {disfmarker} it shows is that , yeah , perhaps a good voice activity detector is {disfmarker} is good before on - line normalization and that 's what uh {vocalsound} we 've already observed . But uh , yeah , voice activity detection is not {vocalsound} {vocalsound} an easy thing neither .
PhD B: But after you do this , after you do the variance normalization {disfmarker} I mean .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: I don't know , it seems like this would be a lot easier than this signal to work with .
PhD F: Yeah . So . What I notice is that , while I prefer to look at the second figure than at the third one , well , because you clearly see where speech is .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD F: But the problem is that on the speech portion , channel zero and channel one are more different than when you use variance normalization where channel zero and channel one become closer .
Professor A: Right .
PhD B: But for the purposes of finding the speech {disfmarker}
PhD F: And {disfmarker} Yeah , but here {disfmarker}
PhD B: You 're more interested in the difference between the speech and the nonspeech ,
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD B: right ?
PhD F: Yeah . So I think , yeah . For I th I think that it {disfmarker} perhaps it shows that {vocalsound} uh the parameters that the voice activity detector should use {disfmarker} uh have to use should be different than the parameter that have to be used for speech recognition .
Professor A: Yeah . So basically you want to reduce this effect .
PhD F: Well , y
Professor A: So you can do that by doing the voi voice activity detection . You also could do it by spect uh spectral subtraction before the {vocalsound} variance normalization , right ?
PhD F: Yeah , but it 's not clear , yeah .
Professor A: So uh {disfmarker}
PhD F: We So . Well . It 's just to
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD F: the {disfmarker} the number that at that are here are recognition experiments on Italian HM and MM {vocalsound} with these two kinds of parameters . And , {pause} well , it 's better with variance normalization .
Professor A: Yeah . Yeah . So it does get better even though it looks ugly .
PhD F: Uh {disfmarker}
Professor A: OK . but does this have the voice activity detection in it ?
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor A: OK .
PhD F: Um .
Professor A: So .
Grad E: OK .
PhD B: Where 's th
PhD F: But the fact is that the voice activity detector doesn't work on channel one . So . Yeah .
Professor A: Uh - huh .
PhD B: Where {disfmarker} at what stage is the voice activity detector applied ? Is it applied here or a after the variance normalization ?
PhD F: Hmm ?
Professor A: Spectral subtraction , I guess .
PhD B: or {disfmarker}
PhD F: It 's applied before variance normalization . So it 's a good thing ,
PhD B: Oh .
PhD F: because I guess voice activity detection on this should {disfmarker} could be worse .
PhD B: Yeah . Is it applied all the way back here ?
PhD F: It 's applied the um on , yeah , something like this ,
PhD B: Maybe that 's why it doesn't work for channel one .
PhD F: yeah . Perhaps , yeah .
Professor A: Can I {disfmarker}
PhD F: So we could perhaps do just mean normalization before VAD .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Mm - hmm . Can I ask a , I mean {disfmarker} a sort of top - level question , which is {vocalsound} um " if {disfmarker} if most of what the OGI folk are working with is trying to {vocalsound} integrate this other {disfmarker} other uh spectral subtraction , {vocalsound} why are we worrying about it ? "
PhD F: Mm - hmm . About ? Spectral subtraction ?
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD F: It 's just uh {disfmarker} Well it 's another {disfmarker} They are trying to u to use the um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the Ericsson and we 're trying to use something {disfmarker} something else . And . Yeah , and also to understand what happens because
Professor A: OK .
PhD F: uh fff Well . When we do spectral subtraction , actually , I think {vocalsound} that this is the {disfmarker} the two last figures .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD F: Um . It seems that after spectral subtraction , speech is more emerging now uh {vocalsound} than {disfmarker} than before .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Speech is more what ?
PhD F: Well , the difference between the energy of the speech and the energy of the n spectral subtrac subtracted noise portion is {disfmarker} is larger .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Well , if you compare the first figure to this one {disfmarker} Actually the scale is not the same , but if you look at the {disfmarker} the numbers um {vocalsound} you clearly see that the difference between the C - zero of the speech and C - zero of the noise portion is larger . Uh but what happens is that after spectral subtraction , {vocalsound} you also increase the variance of this {disfmarker} of C - zero .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: And so if you apply variance normalization on this , it completely sc screw everything . Well .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Um . Uh . Yeah . So yeah . And what they did at OGI is just {vocalsound} uh they don't use on - line normalization , for the moment , on spectral subtraction and I think {disfmarker} Yeah . I think as soon as they will try on - line normalization {vocalsound} there will be a problem . So yeah , we 're working on the same thing but {vocalsound} I think uh with different {disfmarker} different system and {disfmarker}
Professor A: Right . I mean , i the Intellectually it 's interesting to work on things th uh one way or the other
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: but I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm just wondering if um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} on the list of things that there are to do , if there are things that we won't do because {vocalsound} we 've got two groups doing the same thing .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Um . That 's {disfmarker}
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Um . Just {disfmarker} just asking . Uh . I mean , it 's {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah , well ,
PhD B: There also could be {disfmarker} I mean . I can maybe see a reason f for both working on it too
PhD F: uh .
PhD B: if {vocalsound} um you know , if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you work on something else and {disfmarker} and you 're waiting for them to give you {vocalsound} spectral subtraction {disfmarker} I mean it 's hard to know whether {vocalsound} the effects that you get from the other experiments you do will {vocalsound} carry over once you then bring in their spectral subtraction module . So it 's {disfmarker} it 's almost like everything 's held up waiting for this {vocalsound} one thing . I don't know if that 's true or not , but I could see how {disfmarker}
PhD F: Mmm .
Professor A: I don't know .
PhD B: Maybe that 's what you were thinking .
Professor A: I don't know . {vocalsound} I mean , we still evidently have a latency reduction plan which {disfmarker} which isn't quite what you 'd like it to be . That {disfmarker} that seems like one prominent thing . And then uh weren't issues of {disfmarker} of having a {disfmarker} a second stream or something ? That was {disfmarker} Was it {disfmarker} There was this business that , you know , we {disfmarker} we could use up the full forty - eight hundred bits , and {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah . But I think they ' I think we want to work on this . They also want to work on this , so . Uh . {vocalsound} yeah . We {disfmarker} we will try MSG , but um , yeah . And they are t I think they want to work on the second stream also , but more with {vocalsound} some kind of multi - band or , well , what they call TRAP or generalized TRAP .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Um . So .
Professor A: OK . Do you remember when the next meeting is supposed to be ? the next uh {disfmarker}
PhD F: It 's uh in June .
Professor A: In June . OK .
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor A: Yeah . Um . Yeah , the other thing is that you saw that {disfmarker} that mail about uh the VAD {disfmarker} V A Ds performing quite differently ? That that uh So um . This {disfmarker} there was this experiment of uh " what if we just take the baseline ? "
PhD F: Mmm .
Professor A: set uh of features , just mel cepstra , and you inc incorporate the different V A And it looks like the {disfmarker} the French VAD is actually uh better {disfmarker} significantly better .
PhD B: Improves the baseline ?
Professor A: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD F: Yeah but I don't know which VAD they use . Uh . If the use the small VAD I th I think it 's on {disfmarker} I think it 's easy to do better because it doesn't work at all . So . I {disfmarker} I don't know which {disfmarker} which one . It 's Pratibha that {disfmarker} that did this experiment .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD F: Um . We should ask which VAD she used .
PhD D: I don't @ @ . He {disfmarker} Actually , I think that he say with the good VAD of {disfmarker} from OGI and with the Alcatel VAD . And the experiment was sometime better , sometime worse .
PhD F: Yeah but I {disfmarker} it 's uh {disfmarker} I think you were talking about the other mail that used VAD on the reference features .
Professor A: Yes .
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor A: And on that one , uh the French one is {disfmarker} was better .
PhD D: I don't remember .
Professor A: It was just better .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: I mean it was enough better that {disfmarker} that it would {vocalsound} uh account for a fair amount of the difference between our performance , actually .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: So . {vocalsound} Uh . So if they have a better one , we should use it . I mean . You know ? it 's {disfmarker} you can't work on everything .
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor A: Uh . {vocalsound} Uh . Yeah .
PhD F: Yeah , so we should find out if it 's really better . I mean if it {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} compared to the small or the big network .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD F: And perhaps we can easily improve if {disfmarker} if we put like mean normalization before the {disfmarker} before the VAD . Because {disfmarker} {vocalsound} as {disfmarker} as you 've {pause} mentioned .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD F: Mmm .
Professor A: H Hynek will be back in town uh the week after next , back {disfmarker} back in the country . So . And start {disfmarker} start organizing uh {vocalsound} more visits and connections and so forth ,
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: and {disfmarker} uh working towards June .
PhD F: Yeah .
PhD D: Also is Stephane was thinking that {vocalsound} maybe it was useful to f to think about uh {vocalsound} voiced - unvoiced {disfmarker}
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: to work uh here in voiced - unvoiced detection .
PhD F: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD D: And we are looking {vocalsound} {vocalsound} in the uh signal .
PhD F: Yeah , my feeling is that um actually {vocalsound} when we look at all the proposals , ev everybody is still using some kind of spectral envelope
Professor A: Right .
PhD F: and um it 's {disfmarker}
Professor A: No use of pitch uh basically . Yeah .
PhD F: Yeah , well , not pitch , but to look at the um fine {disfmarker} at the {disfmarker} at the high re high resolution spectrum .
Professor A: Yeah . Well , it {disfmarker}
PhD F: So . We don't necessarily want to find the {disfmarker} the pitch of the {disfmarker} of the sound but uh {disfmarker} Cuz I have a feeling that {vocalsound} when we look {disfmarker} when we look at the {disfmarker} just at the envelope there is no way you can tell if it 's voiced and unvoiced , if there is some {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} it 's easy in clean speech because voiced sound are more low frequency and . So there would be more ,
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD F: uh {disfmarker} there is the first formant , which is the larger and then voiced sound are more high frequencies cuz it 's frication and {disfmarker}
Professor A: Right .
PhD F: But , yeah . When you have noise there is no um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if {disfmarker} if you have a low frequency noise it could be taken for {disfmarker} for voiced speech and .
Professor A: Yeah , you can make these mistakes ,
PhD F: So .
Professor A: but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}
PhD B: Isn't there some other
PhD F: S
PhD B: uh d
PhD F: So I think that it {disfmarker} it would be good {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah , well , go {disfmarker} go on .
PhD B: Uh , I was just gonna say isn't there {disfmarker} {vocalsound} aren't {disfmarker} aren't there lots of ideas for doing voice activity , or speech - nonspeech rather , {comment} um by looking at {vocalsound} um , you know , uh {vocalsound} I guess harmonics or looking across time {disfmarker}
Professor A: Well , I think he was talking about the voiced - unvoiced , though ,
PhD F: Mmm .
Professor A: right ? So , not the speech - nonspeech .
PhD B: Yeah . Well even with e
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD B: uh w ah you know , uh even with the voiced - non {pause} voiced - unvoiced
PhD F: Mmm .
PhD B: um {disfmarker} I thought that you or {pause} somebody was talking about {disfmarker}
Professor A: Well . Uh yeah . B We should let him finish what he w he was gonna say ,
PhD F: So .
PhD B: OK .
Professor A: and {disfmarker}
PhD B: So go ahead .
PhD F: Um yeah , so yeah , I think if we try to develop a second stream well , there would be one stream that is the envelope and the second , it could be interesting to have that 's {disfmarker} something that 's more related to the fine structure of the spectrum . And . Yeah , so I don't know . We were thinking about like using ideas from {disfmarker} from Larry Saul , have a good voice detector , have a good , well , voiced - speech detector , that 's working on {disfmarker} on the FFT and {vocalsound} uh
Professor A: U
PhD F: Larry Saul could be an idea . We were are thinking about just {vocalsound} kind of uh taking the spectrum and computing the variance of {disfmarker} of the high resolution spectrum {vocalsound} and things like this .
Professor A: So u s u OK . So {disfmarker} So many {vocalsound} tell you something about that . Uh we had a guy here some years ago who did some work on {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} making use of voicing information uh to {vocalsound} help in reducing the noise .
PhD F: Yeah ?
Professor A: So what he was doing is basically y you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you do estimate the pitch .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: And um you {disfmarker} from that you {disfmarker} you estimate {disfmarker} or you estimate fine harmonic structure , whichev ei either way , it 's more or less the same . But {vocalsound} uh the thing is that um you then {vocalsound} can get rid of things that are not {disfmarker} i if there is strong harmonic structure , {vocalsound} you can throw away stuff that 's {disfmarker} that 's non - harmonic .
PhD F: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor A: And that {disfmarker} that is another way of getting rid of part of the noise
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor A: So um that 's something {vocalsound} that is sort of finer ,
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor A: brings in a little more information than just spectral subtraction . Um .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: And he had some {disfmarker} I mean , he did that sort of in combination with RASTA . It was kind of like RASTA was taking care of convolutional stuff
PhD F: Mmm .
Professor A: and he was {disfmarker}
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: and {disfmarker} and got some {disfmarker} some decent results doing that . So that {disfmarker} that 's another {disfmarker} another way . But yeah , there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah . Mmm .
Professor A: Right . There 's all these cues . We 've actually back when Chuck was here we did some voiced - unvoiced uh {vocalsound} classification using a bunch of these ,
PhD F: But {disfmarker}
Professor A: and {disfmarker} and uh works OK . Obviously it 's not perfect but um {disfmarker}
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: But the thing is that you can't {disfmarker} given the constraints of this task , we can't , {vocalsound} in a very nice way , feed {pause} forward to the recognizer the information {disfmarker} the probabilistic information that you might get about whether it 's voiced or unvoiced , where w we can't you know affect the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the uh distributions or anything .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: But we {disfmarker} what we uh {disfmarker} I guess we could Yeah .
PhD B: Didn't the head dude send around that message ? Yeah , I think you sent us all a copy of the message , where he was saying that {disfmarker} I I 'm not sure , exactly , what the gist of what he was saying , but something having to do with the voice {vocalsound} activity detector and that it will {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that people shouldn't put their own in or something . It was gonna be a {disfmarker}
Professor A: That {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} OK . So that 's voice activity detector as opposed to voicing detector .
PhD F: They didn't .
Professor A: So we 're talking about something a little different .
PhD F: Mmm .
PhD B: Oh , I 'm sorry .
Professor A: Right ?
PhD B: I {disfmarker} I missed that .
PhD F: Mmm .
Professor A: I guess what you could do , maybe this would be w useful , if {disfmarker} if you have {disfmarker} if you view the second stream , yeah , before you {disfmarker} before you do KLT 's and so forth , if you do view it as probabilities , and if it 's an independent {disfmarker} So , if it 's {disfmarker} if it 's uh not so much {vocalsound} envelope - based by fine - structure - based , uh looking at harmonicity or something like that , um if you get a probability from that information and then multiply it by {disfmarker} you know , multiply by all the voiced {vocalsound} outputs and all the unvoiced outputs , you know , then {vocalsound} use that as the
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: uh {disfmarker} take the log of that or {vocalsound} uh pre pre uh {disfmarker} pre - nonlinearity ,
PhD F: Yeah . i if {disfmarker}
Professor A: uh and do the KLT on the {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on that ,
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor A: then that would {disfmarker} that would I guess be uh a reasonable use of independent information . So maybe that 's what you meant . And then that would be {disfmarker}
PhD F: Yeah , well , I was not thinking this {disfmarker} yeah , this could be an yeah So you mean have some kind of probability for the v the voicing
Professor A: R Right . So you have a second neural net .
PhD F: and then use a tandem system
Professor A: It could be pretty small . Yeah . If you have a tandem system and then you have some kind of {disfmarker} it can be pretty small {disfmarker} net {disfmarker}
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: we used {disfmarker} we d did some of this stuff . Uh I {disfmarker} I did , some years ago ,
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor A: and the {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and you use {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the thing is to use information primarily that 's different as you say , it 's more fine - structure - based than {disfmarker} than envelope - based
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: uh so then it you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you can pretty much guarantee it 's stuff that you 're not looking at very well with the other one , and uh then you only use for this one distinction .
PhD F: Alright .
Professor A: And {disfmarker} and so now you 've got a probability of the cases , and you 've got uh the probability of the finer uh categories on the other side . You multiply them where appropriate and uh {vocalsound} um
PhD F: I see , yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor A: if they really are from independent {pause} information sources then {vocalsound} they should have different kinds of errors
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: and roughly independent errors , and {vocalsound} it 's a good choice for {disfmarker}
PhD F: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor A: Uh . Yeah , that 's a good idea .
PhD F: Yeah . Because , yeah , well , spectral subtraction is good and we could u we could use the fine structure to {disfmarker} to have a better estimate of the noise but {vocalsound} still there is this issue with spectral subtraction that it seems to increase the variance of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD F: um Well it 's this musical noise which is annoying if you d you do some kind of on - line normalization after .
Professor A: Right .
PhD F: So . Um . Yeah . Well . Spectral subtraction and on - line normalization don't seem to {disfmarker} to go together very well . I
Professor A: Or if you do a spectral subtraction {disfmarker} do some spectral subtraction first and then do some on - line normalization then do some more spectral subtraction {disfmarker} I mean , maybe {disfmarker} maybe you can do it layers or something so it doesn't {disfmarker} doesn't hurt too much or something .
PhD F: Ah , yeah .
Professor A: But it {disfmarker} but uh , anyway I think I was sort of arguing against myself there by giving that example
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor A: uh I mean cuz I was already sort of {vocalsound} suggesting that we should be careful about not spending too much time on exactly what they 're doing In fact if you get {disfmarker} if you go into uh {disfmarker} a uh harmonics - related thing {vocalsound} it 's definitely going to be different than what they 're doing and uh uh
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: should have some interesting properties in noise . Um . {vocalsound} I know that when have people have done {pause} um sort of the obvious thing of taking {vocalsound} uh your feature vector and adding {pause} in some variables which are {vocalsound} pitch related or uh that {disfmarker} it hasn't {disfmarker} my impression it hasn't particularly helped . Uh . Has not .
PhD F: It {disfmarker} it i has not ,
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD F: yeah .
Professor A: But I think uh {pause} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a question for this uh you know extending the feature vector versus having different streams .
PhD F: Oh . Was it nois noisy condition ? the example that you {disfmarker} you just
Professor A: And {disfmarker} and it may not have been noisy conditions .
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor A: Yeah . I {disfmarker} I don't remember the example but it was {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it was on some DARPA data and some years ago and so it probably wasn't , actually
PhD F: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah . But we were thinking , we discussed with Barry about this , and {vocalsound} perhaps {vocalsound} thinking {disfmarker} we were thinking about some kind of sheet cheating experiment where we would use TIMIT
Professor A: Uh - huh .
PhD F: and see if giving the d uh , this voicing bit would help in {disfmarker} in terms of uh frame classification .
Professor A: Why don't you {disfmarker} why don't you just do it with Aurora ?
PhD F: Mmm .
Professor A: Just any i in {disfmarker} in each {disfmarker} in each frame
PhD F: Yeah , but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} B but we cannot do the cheating , this cheating thing .
Grad E: We 're {disfmarker}
Professor A: uh {disfmarker}
Grad E: We need labels .
Professor A: Why not ?
PhD F: Well . Cuz we don't have {disfmarker} Well , for Italian perhaps we have , but we don't have this labeling for Aurora . We just have a labeling with word models
Professor A: I see .
PhD F: but not for phonemes .
PhD D: Not for foreigners .
Grad E: we don't have frame {disfmarker} frame level transcriptions .
Professor A: Um .
PhD D: Right .
PhD F: Um . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Professor A: But you could {disfmarker} I mean you can {disfmarker} you can align so that {disfmarker} It 's not perfect , but if you {disfmarker} if you know what was said and {disfmarker}
PhD B: But the problem is that their models are all word level models . So there 's no phone models {pause} that you get alignments for .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Oh .
PhD B: You {disfmarker} So you could find out where the word boundaries are but that 's about it .
Professor A: Yeah . I see .
Grad E: S But we could use uh the {disfmarker} the noisy version that TIMIT , which {vocalsound} you know , is similar to the {disfmarker} the noises found in the TI - digits {vocalsound} um portion of Aurora .
PhD F: Yeah . noise , yeah . Yeah , that 's right , yep . Mmm .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD F: Well , I guess {disfmarker} I guess we can {disfmarker} we can say that it will help , but I don't know . If this voicing bit doesn't help , uh , I think we don't have to {disfmarker} to work more about this because {disfmarker}
Professor A: Uh .
PhD F: Uh . It 's just to know if it {disfmarker} how much i it will help
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD F: and to have an idea of how much we can gain .
Professor A: Right . I mean in experiments that we did a long time ago
PhD F: Mmm .
Professor A: and different ta it was probably Resource Management or something , um , I think you were getting {pause} something like still eight or nine percent error on the voicing , as I recall . And um , so um
Grad E: Another person 's voice .
Professor A: what that said is that , sort of , left to its own devices , like without the {disfmarker} a strong language model and so forth , that you would {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you would make significant number of errors {vocalsound} just with your uh probabilistic machinery in deciding
PhD B: It also {disfmarker}
Professor A: one oh
PhD B: Yeah , the {disfmarker} though I think uh there was one problem with that in that , you know , we used canonical mapping so {vocalsound} our truth may not have really been {pause} true to the acoustics .
Professor A: Uh - huh .
Grad E: Hmm .
PhD B: So .
PhD F: Mmm .
Professor A: Yeah . Well back twenty years ago when I did this voiced - unvoiced stuff , we were getting more like {vocalsound} ninety - seven or ninety - eight percent correct in voicing . But that was {vocalsound} speaker - dependent {vocalsound} actually . We were doing training {vocalsound} on a particular announcer
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: and {disfmarker} and getting a {vocalsound} very good handle on the features .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: And we did this complex feature selection thing where we looked at all the different possible features one could have for voicing and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} and exhaustively searched {vocalsound} all size subsets and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for that particular speaker and you 'd find you know the five or six features which really did well on them .
PhD B: Wow !
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: And then doing {disfmarker} doing all of that we could get down to two or three percent error . But that , again , was speaker - dependent with {vocalsound} lots of feature selection
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: and a very complex sort of thing .
PhD F: Mmm .
Professor A: So I would {disfmarker} I would believe {vocalsound} that uh it was quite likely that um looking at envelope only , that we 'd be {vocalsound} significantly worse than that .
PhD F: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Uh .
PhD F: And the {disfmarker} all the {disfmarker} the SpeechCorders ? what 's the idea behind ? Cuz they {disfmarker} they have to {disfmarker} Oh , they don't even have to detect voiced spe speech ?
Professor A: The modern ones don't do a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a simple switch .
PhD F: They just work on the code book
Professor A: They work on the code book excitation .
PhD F: and find out the best excitation .
Professor A: Yeah they do {vocalsound} analysis - by - synthesis . They try {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they try every {disfmarker} every possible excitation they have in their code book and find the one that matches best .
PhD F: Yeah . Mmm . Alright . Yeah . So it would not help .
Professor A: Yeah .
Grad E: Hmm .
Professor A: Uh . O K .
PhD B: Can I just mention one other interesting thing ?
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD B: Um . One of the ideas that we {pause} had come up with last week for things to try to {vocalsound} improve the system {disfmarker} Um . Actually I {disfmarker} I s we didn't {disfmarker} I guess I wrote this in after the meeting b but {vocalsound} the thought I had was um looking at the language model that 's used in the HTK recognizer , which is basically just a big {vocalsound} loop ,
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: right ? So you {disfmarker} it goes " digit "
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: and then that can be {disfmarker} either go to silence or go to another digit , which {disfmarker} That model would allow for the production of {vocalsound} infinitely long sequences of digits , right ?
Professor A: Right .
PhD B: So . I thought " well I 'm gonna just look at the {disfmarker} what actual digit strings do occur in the training data . "
Professor A: Right .
PhD B: And the interesting thing was it turns out that there are no sequences of two - long or three - long digit strings {pause} in any of the Aurora training data . So it 's either one , four , five , six , uh up to eleven , and then it skips and then there 's some at sixteen .
Professor A: But what about the testing data ?
PhD B: Um . I don't know . I didn't look at the test data yet .
Professor A: Yeah . I mean if there 's some testing data that has {disfmarker} has {disfmarker} {vocalsound} has two or three {disfmarker}
PhD B: So . Yeah . But I just thought that was a little odd , that there were no two or three long {disfmarker} Sorry . So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} just for the heck of it , I made a little grammar which um , you know , had it 's separate path {pause} for each length digit string you could get . So there was a one - long path and there was a four - long and a five - long
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: and I tried that and it got way worse . There were lots of deletions .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So it was {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , I {disfmarker} I didn't have any weights of these paths or {disfmarker} I didn't have anything like that .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And I played with tweaking the {vocalsound} word transition penalties a bunch , but I couldn't go anywhere .
Professor A: Hmm .
PhD B: But um . I thought " well if I only allow {disfmarker} " Yeah , I guess I should have looked at {disfmarker} to see how often there was a mistake where a two - long or a three - long path was actually put out as a hypothesis . Um . But .
Professor A: Hmm .
PhD B: So to do that right you 'd probably want to have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} allow for them all but then have weightings and things . So . I just thought that was a interesting {vocalsound} thing about the data .
Professor A: OK . So we 're gonna read some more digit strings I guess ?
PhD B: Yeah . You want to go ahead , Morgan ?
Professor A: Sure . | |
doc_157 | Industrial Designer: 'S to do now is to decide how to fulfil what your stuff is ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so in that sense {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah , sure .
Industrial Designer: so it does kind of make sense , yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , well {disfmarker}
Marketing: It kinda does make sense , doesn't it , because when we get into the end of meeting we're kind of {vocalsound} talking about action and design as opposed to background .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Everything I have is kinda background .
Project Manager: Okay we all ready to go ?
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: Well how um on the {disfmarker} in this meeting then if we um {disfmarker} I'll just just recap on the minutes from the last meeting . And we uh decided on
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: decided on our our target group being fifteen to thirty five ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and we decided that it was gonna be non-rechargeable battery-powered , that we're gonna group our audio-visual and other functions into into those categories , um {vocalsound} . And I told you guys about the three new requirements about ignoring teletext , ignoring everything except the T_V_ , and trying to incorporate the the uh corporate colour and slogan . Um so that was the last meeting .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Is there anything {disfmarker} have I forgotten anything ?
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: Is that everything ?
Marketing: Uh that sounds {gap} .
Project Manager: Okay . Um so if we have the three presentations , and then if you have anything to kind of {disfmarker} that you know you're gonna want to discuss , maybe just make a note of it , and we'll have all the discussion at the end . That might be a better idea this time .
Marketing: Sure .
Project Manager: And so if we start off uh with Andrew and then Craig and then David ,
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: if that's alright .
Marketing: Sure .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: Um and then after that we'll have to make some decisions about stuff , right {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Yeah , cool .
Project Manager: So if you wanna take this .
Marketing: Why don't I get that {vocalsound} ? Hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Screwed in quite tightly . Uh what did {disfmarker} uh how did we leave it with speech recognition now ? We {disfmarker} did we say we were gonna try {disfmarker} maybe incorporate it but we hadn't made a definite decision on that ?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Right . Oh I should also point out that um the you know the kind of final objective of this meeting is to reach a decision on the concepts of the product .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So um {vocalsound} that's kind of the end result hopefully .
Marketing: Okay . Um alright so c is it function F_ eight ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh-huh . Hopefully appear in a wee second .
Marketing: Hmm . Come on . I think it's working .
Project Manager: Up there we go .
Marketing: Okay great s so let me just start this . {vocalsound} Okay great . So um {vocalsound} uh s move on . Uh-huh {disfmarker} oh where'd it all go ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh no .
Marketing: It's not good . Okay lemme just see where I can find it . This looks more like it . I think I just opened up the template .
Project Manager: Oh right .
Marketing: Sorry about that . Okay alright so let's have a look here .
Project Manager: Here we go .
Marketing: Okay so this was the method that um I've taken . Uh basically what I wanna do here , before we get into it uh too far , is I want to show you all the background information I have that I think we need to acknowledge if we want this to be successful .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: And uh and then sorta g go through some of the way that I've dealt with that information , and then sort of bring us all together into it to see {disfmarker} sorta see how this fits in with the overall vision . Um so I've tried to take a whole lot of market research and summarise it for us , and then ide identify uh trends that are are sort of in sync and are important to our our uh p project plan that we have so far , and then uh initiate a kind of discussion on design options so that it sorta helps us to to narrow in on on aspects that will inform other uh other elements of the of the project . Does that make sense , tha that sort of strategy ?
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: I thought that that will impact on the rest of what we do , so that's why I suggested we get in this .
Project Manager: Aye a fair point definitely .
Marketing: Okay so out of um different uh figures and ratings ob uh of people in general , um consumers in general , the number one thing that was found was that uh the br t television remote control , a fancy look and feel , okay , and not , it specified , not a functional look or or feel , uh b f f fancy .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Um however , this is where we kinda have to be very , I think , creative about it . Number two was that it be innovative . Okay so that tells me that we have to find a way to be innovative without a adding just unnecessary um sort of functional bits to it . Uh and third priority uh for ease of use , so again that kind of gives us a general picture of how it has to be , um {vocalsound} quite user friendly while still having technology . So it {disfmarker} I'll just say right away as a bit of a foreshadowing into how we proceed with this in terms of m marketing , is that I think um {vocalsound} what we should think about is how the um {vocalsound} about how the innovation uh contributes to the look and feel , and not so much to the functionality of it .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Aye right .
Marketing: For example like when you pick it up and push it like it all lights up or something , you know what I mean , like , or it's got something else to it that just seems innovative
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Marketing: because obviously the thing that {disfmarker} the message here is ease of use . So how do you make innovation make something more {vocalsound} more easy to use ? Well that's I guess where we're gonna go with this .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Okay then there's the other aspect of the back the the market um research I have here is on fashion style , okay , which as we've agreed is a priority . Uh top European fashion trend um {vocalsound} that I read about says there's this emerging theme of fruit and vegetables , okay ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: especially in clothes and furniture . And when I first saw that I thought hmm , well do we want to actually try and think about this trend and how we add something to it , or we get right into it , or we completely steer away from it ,
Project Manager: Okay okay .
Marketing: do you know what I mean ? So my my feeling is that we w do want to observe this trend , but we want to think also about the fact that it sort of has to fit in with something which is not specifically electronics . Um 'cause I think what we're in what we're in is partly sort of home decor , partly something like a computer , um {vocalsound} so I think we might wanna be careful about how you know how quickly we create like a remote control in the shape of an apple or something ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think that would be pushing it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And then in terms of m material trends are for things to be soft and spongy and sort of , you might say ergonomic or or friendly to handle , which is {disfmarker} which also in indicated that last year this was this was not the case . So um probably a lot of the competition on the market will be still in last year's mode , so if we try and really capitalise on that , I think that'll be in our favour . Um {disfmarker} So these this is the summary of everything . Um style is number one uh thing in the in the market of who we're selling to . Uh innovative design technology's also a must in that it's seen {disfmarker} it'd be seen to be uh cutting edge , uh but ease of use t has to be insured throughout . That was like the number three thing . And then at the end there are vibrant natural colours um that's the way I interpreted it anyway , softness in materials , shape , and function , and so I've written at written at the bottom to give us sort of a context of discussion , Mac iPods ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: something which is , I'd have to say very high-tech , ten gigabytes , whatever , but when you hold it in your hand there's like no buttons .
Project Manager: Mm that's true , yeah .
Marketing: You know what a Mac iPod is ? I'm thinking however Mac iPod is sort of last year's because it's very hard and sort of glassy and glossy , so I'm thinking if we imagine that we're taking some of the features of a Mac iPod and we're then making it s more of like a more of like a comfortable type of {disfmarker} or more of like a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} maybe more vibrant to friendly thing to have . Um and then so this is w with all that information what I'm what I'm suggesting in this slide here is that we we take these ideas , and as we get into more the more um {vocalsound} techni like sort of production side of things , that we think about shape , materials , and themes or series that go throughout . Sort of like a {disfmarker} I dunno like um we think of some kind of a thin theme that unifies it all , that we agree on , uh sorta like a marketing identity . Um {disfmarker} Does that make sense ? Yeah . So {vocalsound} so like I threw out a few ideas there just to kinda get us thinking along those lines like lemon , lime , I dunno , green colours , pe whatever , it's just an idea , 'cause I'm thinking that some of these ideas will seem quite coherent if we use them in terms of their {disfmarker} what people associate this {disfmarker} them with in terms of texture , shape , colours , things like that .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay . Great .
Marketing: Like um the ones the ones which I'm most fond of in terms of giving like a theme to it would be like um like lemon or something like that , you know something which is , like you see a lot in in other areas . Like I see lots of websites and things that seem to associate with like lemon and lime and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So anyway it's just just an idea .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: I'm thinking maybe we could incorporate some of these features into a fairly um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} into something which is {disfmarker} which seems to have something to it which is almost gimmicky because like um like something to do with like lighting within it . Like you know just within the simple sense , when you pick up a phone and touch a button it uh lights up , q usually the buttons light up .
Project Manager: Ah .
Marketing: How can we build on that ? Maybe like it could light up in different colours or something or or people could buy the buy the control and then it comes with different like covers or something so .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Anyway those are {disfmarker} that's all I have ,
Project Manager: That's great .
Marketing: but uh hopefully we can we can revisit those ideas when we get into {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh-huh . Okay great .
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: Um thank you for that . Uh Craig do you wanna
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: uh plug yours in then ?
User Interface: Is it working ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm . Not quite .
Marketing: Did you press F_ eight ?
Industrial Designer: It's probably not sending . Yeah .
Project Manager: Oh something coming now , yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yep , there it is .
Project Manager: There we go .
User Interface: And so think of this concept . Um to research it I've um had a look on the the homepage again . It's provided me with more examples of um previously existing c remote controls . Um there's a wee bit of discussion about the other existing ones there , um so I've taken the um suggestions from them and tried to incorporate them into this um {disfmarker} So then this {disfmarker} we're looking for um suggestions on size th um size of control and the buttons , um the shape of the control , and whereabout the buttons should be located on the control .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Um what I found from the research is that most the current controls are just basically big bricks with loads of buttons all over them . Um they're not very attractive to look at , {vocalsound} and they're not very comfortable to hold , they're {disfmarker} I just hold 'em like big bricks , and they're very easily lost . Um they tend to be very dark colours , so if there are shadowy places down the side of couches you can't really see them . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Um {vocalsound} the the controls themselves tend to use a very inconsistent colour scheme . Um for instance , the stand-by button isn't always red , uh it really should be . It's uh something the user then uh identify with . This is a red switch off , that's how it should be . Um I'm not sure if there's any other examples of that , but something to look out for . Um there's a problem that I've I've got couple of preferences for the the end control {vocalsound} um I get 'em with the the red colour button for stand-by and s the other examples of that {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The buttons should be large . They shouldn't be tiny little things like you get on some mobile phones . They should be easy to press , very comfortable . {vocalsound} Um one of the examples given on the homepage was um {vocalsound} there's an up and down volume button but both of them have a V_ on them ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: so the up volume button looks like it should be a down volume button , that's kinda confusing . Um should avoid s things like that . Um {vocalsound} if the the corporate colour scheme allows it we should have a very bright colour so that it can be easily identified anywhere .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Um obviously trying trying to avoid being tacky there , but it could um tie-in very easily with your your lime and lemon idea .
Marketing: Yeah . Okay , do we have a corporate colour scheme ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think it's yellow
Marketing: I didn't know .
Project Manager: because like the website is yellow and there's a band at the bottom is yellow ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: And the Play-Doh 's yellow {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: so yellow , lemon , you know definitely food for thought there ,
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Fantastic . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but keep going
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: and we'll discuss it after .
User Interface: Um
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: any extra features we add beyond the basic ones should be m hidden , they shouldn't be on the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} um shouldn't be visible without something be opened or some sort of special extra effort .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um if we did decide to go for voice activation {vocalsound} there sh should always be a button as alternative , possibly hidden in the the opened up section um making that something is wrong with it or with somebody's voice , maybe they got a cold or {disfmarker} Um {vocalsound} we should definitely avoid the big square block look . That's just wrong .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And um we got an email uh from I think it's the the research department , {vocalsound} and they've said th the voice control um can now talk back if you ask it a question .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: So it sh it could be good to have them um confirm any action you take
Project Manager: Aye that's a good idea , yeah .
User Interface: and {gap} possibility . Right and these are problems I've had with it . Um I don't know where the slogan should go , or really what the slogan is . I think it's um , fashion into electronics .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: And we don't know how flexible the colour scheme is . I mean you say you wanted the the corporate colours , but they don't say you know if we can use any other colours at all or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Cool .
User Interface: That's it .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Great . {vocalsound} Lots of good information there .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah that that was very good ,
Industrial Designer: Mm 'kay um .
Project Manager: and uh now with David .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I think I'm cool .
Marketing: It's a shame the cable wasn't just in the middle {gap} {vocalsound} of the table ,
Project Manager: I know it'd be handy , wouldn't it .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: huh ? Just um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oops .
Project Manager: Do y do you wanna sit in the the line of sight of this um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah okay . Let me just get this going first .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Ah there it is . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It takes a second , doesn't it ?
Industrial Designer: 'Kay , that should be it . Okay um I guess the same thing again , I started with something very basic .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So just so you guys have some idea of what's involved in my process , um and then you can just work through it
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and we 'll either modify it or start from scratch um depending on what your needs are . Um the components are exactly the same .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um I think , like what you guys said , um the most input that's needed is basically in the user interface . The rest of the components um they do have an impact in terms of cost and complexity . Um like you said time to market was a problem , um and how many components are physically in there in cost . And the power is basically a factor of that . Um and the lower components , the power , the logic , the transmitter , and the infrared , um they affect you in terms of the size of your device , um and that would have some inte impact on how y I think more how you hold rather than um the actual use using the the remote control because um like we've said {disfmarker} we've defined , like we only want the basic things that {disfmarker} to be visible , and the rest of them we try to hide . So um you know it's just a matter of working out space .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So I guess three things , um cost , um complexity , and the size . These are the three things that um will have an impact on you . So just go through it in the components . Um these are the options that are available to you , um I'm not very sure about the voice thing 'cause I got another email and it was in fact quite sketchy on what n the voice options are .
User Interface: Right .
Industrial Designer: Um it said it could talk to you , but it never said anything about being able to listen . I it said something about a sensor but never clarified that .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: So maybe if you {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: well I could see the other email that they sent you , um 'cause they got back to me with like different requirements {vocalsound} , or different offerings of what components availa Okay so your basic components are buttons ,
User Interface: Right .
Industrial Designer: okay and you have a wheel available , like a mouse scroll wheel ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: okay there's an L_C_D_ display ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} um I think these are quite standard things .
Marketing: They're standard , aren't they ?
Industrial Designer: No um they're {disfmarker} well in the sense that these are all the options available for you . I'll explain to you the complexity and the cost thing again a bit later .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay um then there's um how the case actually looks . It can actually be flat or it can be curved , um and then the different types of materials that you can use , um I don't think you can use them in a combination , um but um
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: I could check back for you , but I don't think you can actually use them in a combination .
Project Manager: We {disfmarker} you couldn't have like plastic and rubber ?
Industrial Designer: Um I think plastic and rubber would be fine , but plastic , rubber , and wood , I wasn't {disfmarker} I'm not very sure about the titanium .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: They had some restrictions on using the rubber and the titanium .
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um the rubber was a restriction on the kind of power source you could use ,
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
Industrial Designer: but the titanium had a different kind of things on the shape of the thing ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: so I think that there is some restriction on um {disfmarker} I think you could probably group plastic and rubber together , wood and titanium ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: but you know it might be easier from a cost perspective and a complexity just to use one .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: You know as opposed to two .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um and the other components are logic chips , um again I'll I'll go back to the component chips . The com how complex or how easy the logic is , it depends on how many functions you have on the on the unit um and that impacts cost . Um I don't think the logic chip has a issue about size 'cause they should be about the same size .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Power consumption should be about the same . Um I think the main impact is complexity ,
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: um and the other thing is um the power options . Um the first one is a standard battery . Okay the second one I think is more of a gimmick then actually a useable thing , it's a wind-up {vocalsound} you know , a crank {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I'll clear one of these things for you . Just by moving it yeah .
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but that that might be something {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think that's more of a look and feel decision because I don't think you can have one power source if you're using the alternative power sources . I think whatever it is you still need a battery 'cause I don't think anybody wants to keep doing one thing .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No .
Industrial Designer: Okay the other ones are a solar powered cell ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: which may not be a great idea in Europe or {vocalsound} any country that has seasons 'cause half the year you'd be dead .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So like what I said , you probably need like a battery and something else .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um and the kinetic one I guess for me is the most interesting one
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: because it's movement and people like to fiddle with their {disfmarker} and it's a nice sales gimmick I think .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: From a marketing gimmick it it's a technology thing ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: it's a shake it {vocalsound} it doesn't work , shake it , knock it or something . You know
Project Manager: W yeah .
Industrial Designer: you know
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: you have {disfmarker} you had those balls , you know those stress balls where you bounce the ball and it and it lights up and it goes ,
Project Manager: Uh yeah yeah , I see .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: you know that might be a gimmick combined with rubber .
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: You know just to {disfmarker} if you get frustrated wi remote control you can throw it ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: kind of {vocalsound} you know just uh you know um {disfmarker} so . Um okay
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I know what you mean yeah .
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: my {disfmarker} from my role , I don't think that personal preferences but role preferences , I think um something comfortable to hold , um small and slim
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: I guess that's more in the sense of {disfmarker} small and slim in terms of comfortable not so small you can't , you know like a phone or something , too small phone .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um and the other thing is from a production point of view um the less components we use and the simpler the components means you reduce your cost and you increase your profit . Um and also the time to market and the complexity of developing designing and debugging it {disfmarker} um so .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um okay let me just go back and talk about some of the restrictions .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} The user interface restrictions basically means that if you use more complicated features , like the buttons are standard okay , the L_C_D_ panel and the scroll wheel you need more complicated logic . {vocalsound} Um the case {disfmarker} okay with a rubber case you can't have the solar panels .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Okay with the titanium case , let me just check that um ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: titanium case can't be curved , it has to be square .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay um there's no restriction on the plastic , and
Marketing: It can't be curved .
Industrial Designer: it can't be curved on the wood .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So that's again , I don't think you can use them in a combination , um especially the titanium
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: I I suspect they're very fixed to a particular need .
Project Manager: Right .
Industrial Designer: So um {vocalsound} mixing them may not be a good idea um yep . That's it .
Project Manager: Okay . Right can I {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh question on {disfmarker} can I ask a question ?
Project Manager: Yeah well yeah it's just I'm quite keen to get the discussion going with the time we've left so {disfmarker} but yeah you c ask away .
Marketing: Okay . Can we uh power a light in this ? Can we get a strong enough battery to power a light ?
Industrial Designer: Um I think we could because the L_C_D_ panel requires power , and the L_C_D_ is a form of a light
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: so that {disfmarker}
Marketing: So maybe one of the things we can just try and include is a really good battery .
Project Manager: Why what kind of light do you want {disfmarker} are you thinking of ?
Marketing: Well {disfmarker} I mean I'm thinking it might be {disfmarker} That {disfmarker} for uh this to be a high-tech thing it's gonna have to have something high-tech about it
Project Manager: Uh-huh . Yeah .
Marketing: and that's gonna take battery power , and to make that to make that a realistic goal I think one of the issues that will come up later is , can the battery power it ?
Industrial Designer: Are you thinking are you thinking of of a light in the sense of um a light light , or a light in the sense of it glows kind of you know Frankenstein , it's alive .
Marketing: Illuminate the buttons . Yeah it glows . Well m I'm thinking along the lines of you're you're in the dark watching a D_V_D_ and you um you find the thing in the dark and you go like this ,
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: and that's what everybody does . Oh where's the volume button in the dark ,
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah yeah .
Marketing: and uh y you just touch it , or you just pick it up , and it lights up or something .
Project Manager: Like a phone yeah , like the backlight in a phone .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Like a phone , yeah yeah .
Project Manager: Okay cool .
Marketing: Whereas with phones , people charge them once a week .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: We're gonna need to put in a really good battery so people don't have to charge their r remote control every few days .
Industrial Designer: Um that's why I think the option of the the kinetic thing which basically means as long as you shake it like a watch , like an automatic watch
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: But are people gonna wanna shake their movie controller ?
Industrial Designer: um it's probably sensitive enough when you fiddle it .
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: So you could trigger that to a light ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Sure .
Industrial Designer: like I said the bouncing ball thing , or you could trigger that to use that to power the light
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: as opposed to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: so when they pick it up , right , and then that that sorta triggers the
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Right
Industrial Designer: glowingness .
Project Manager: okay um well {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay , great .
Project Manager: let's just go right back to the marketing ideas for a start , and just giving an id idea on the time , we've got about fifteen minutes to play with at most . So um yeah so just t to bear in mind that the ultimate goal of this meeting is to reach an {gap} decision on the the the concepts of the product .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: So back to your idea about um incorporating the idea of like fruit and veg , and the corporate colour , and things like that .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um I mean what does everybody think about {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Does anybody have any ideas of {disfmarker} about how we can fit all that in together ? I mean that's kind of the user interface type of thing , what are your thoughts on that ?
User Interface: Um {vocalsound} I think we could go for like um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} maybe not a p a fruit shape but a very sort of curvy type shape . Um you could have the same sort of texture and colour as a fruit .
Project Manager: So maybe {disfmarker} do y are we thinking something that like s could sit in your hand comfortably , or do you th you'd hold onto comfortably or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um probably something that s sits in your hand comfortably , sort of feels right in your hand .
Project Manager: So something quite curvy ? Okay um right okay . Colour-wise I mean you made a re uh was it you or uh I can't remember who made the point about how if you've a nice bright colour you'll not lose it , was that {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think he made that .
Project Manager: Whose {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: What's that ?
Project Manager: about how if you have a bright colour you'll not lose it so much .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um and when the corporate colour is yellow , I mean maybe we could think about about the colour of the whole product being yellow I don't know . Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And then obviously the uh the materials {disfmarker} when it {disfmarker} has anybody got like an overall picture in their mind about what what might work ? That's all .
Marketing: Well I mean I'm thinking that what we need to do is have something that kind of unifies a lot of the different concepts ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and if we think that what we are w our number one marketing motive is um {vocalsound} the look and feel .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So for the look and feel to seem coherent and not just sorta bits and bits and pieces of of concept and technology or or whatever or fashion , then we should have it kind of come back to one thing that we kind of all sorta can visualize . Um maybe what we could do is t th think about a concept which touches b back to the {disfmarker} on the um {vocalsound} the colour ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: you said company colour yellow . I mean if we think of something , like I was saying also lime and lemon you know ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: what {disfmarker} can we come up with something where we we try and associate it with with like the series . We just come up with something like that we kind of use it as a theme to inspire the
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: shapes and things .
Project Manager: Right .
Industrial Designer: Is there a particular shape that you're interested in ? Like does marketing have any research on {disfmarker} does it need to be long ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Does it need {disfmarker} with a square thing wha
Project Manager: Oh you know like in circular in shape or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah 'cause that will n help narrow down the choice of {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Choice of material yeah .
Industrial Designer: Like fruit . {vocalsound} I'm thinking fruits in my head , but that's tacky .
Project Manager: 'Cause I I I was kinda thinking about as well {disfmarker} you know how you get these shock resistant mobile phones ,
User Interface: See I'm {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and they're plastic but then also have like rubber on the outside , and it kinda feels {disfmarker} it feels kind of warmer to the touch . It feels a bit more comfortable , and maybe we could incorporate plastic and rubber into it . And then then we could have curved shapes , 'cause wood or titanium , yeah , it's gonna have to be boxy and rectangular and I think we might be moving away from that you know so um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well I'm {disfmarker} do we really want it in like the shape of a lemon or {disfmarker}
Marketing: No no no not at all .
Project Manager: no I don't think we do either {vocalsound} .
Marketing: It's more more just that we we think about like what it is we're trying to achieve , so and then we have one one sorta theme that we stick with .
Project Manager: Okay right well um
Marketing: Do you know what I mean ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so thoughts about the actual shape of the thing .
User Interface: I'd quite like a sort of uh snowman type shape .
Project Manager: A snowman shape ?
User Interface: Um so a p sort of larger bit sits in your hand , and then you got maybe another bubble at the top for just any other function you need .
Project Manager: Uh-huh . That's quite a distinctive shape ,
Marketing: Right ,
Project Manager: that would be good
Marketing: sure .
Project Manager: wouldn't it . Yeah
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: so yeah should we go with that ?
Marketing: Um can we yeah like to and wha like do you have a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do you wanna draw it on the board ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Can you like {disfmarker} yeah just t we can visualize it .
User Interface: Um something like that um you got two groups there um maybe it could fold up and you get a third group inside
Project Manager: Ooh that'd be good .
User Interface: or uh you have volume controls about there .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Okay . Yep .
Project Manager: So call it the snowman-shape trademark {vocalsound} . Yeah that's cool . Um and I mean colour-wise what does everybody think ? I think it is quite important to get yellow in there somewhere . I mean do you want the whole thing yellow , maybe like yellow and white {disfmarker} do you want something {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: So I reckon it'd look quite nice if we just had um this {gap} here , had a sorta background yellow ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
User Interface: and then have sort of a nice bold colour for the buttons .
Project Manager: Okay cool . Um and also I mean how are we going to incorporate the slogan in ? The fact that it talks to you , I mean it might be quite cool if when you first start using it it says , what is it , putting fashion into electronics or something , I dunno . Or when you like {disfmarker} or if you turn it off or something {disfmarker} if it can speak if it could actually say the slogan it might be a bit more powerful than just having it written on it somewhere .
User Interface: I think that might scare me .
Project Manager: I d I d any thoughts on that at all ?
User Interface: I think that'd probably scare me . You turn it on your control possessed s {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I know . Um unless an a I mean if you {disfmarker} also would that work if we wanted to incorporate um an L_C_D_ display , where would we put that ? Would we put that on the inside or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Do we need an L_C_D_ display ?
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: What what's the functionality of that ?
Project Manager: It's bound to increase the cost of it a lot , I would've thought .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but the question is what are we using it {disfmarker}
Marketing: What would it achieve ?
Industrial Designer: what would we what would we achieve from it ? Putting in lights is cheap but putting in an L_C_D_ panel just to make it glow is a bit of a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well {disfmarker} L_C_ well I'd {disfmarker} when you used to mention the L_C_D_ I'd think I wonder what that would be about . And the th the thing I could see it helping with would be if it was somehow connected with um listings .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So as you scroll through , 'cause we said we might have a jog dial , so as you scroll through your stations you can y it actually tells you what it is .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . I think that will be a problem because we don't have an input device to get the listings into it ,
Marketing: Right , okay .
Industrial Designer: so um it's a bit nuts to get the {gap} Monday Tuesday Wednesday you know .
Project Manager: Mm oh yeah that's true . Yeah . So so no need for an L_C_D_ display ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um I I'm not saying there's no need for an L_C_D_ display , but um it's {disfmarker} what's what what would it tell the user ,
Project Manager: I think that would make it very complex .
Industrial Designer: 'cause the L_C_D_ tends to be an output as uh as opposed to an input so um does the remote control need to talk back to the user ?
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: Mm not real
Industrial Designer: We have the option of the speaker as well {disfmarker} the sa the same thing goes for the speaker , is there a need for the remote control to to talk back ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't know if there is really ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Nah .
Project Manager: no um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I would say no need for a talk-back . Uh does anybody disagree with that ?
Industrial Designer: You could put a game on it {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: No ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: No .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Easy {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: When the T_V_ dies you can play with the remote control {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Okay um right
Marketing: Mm mm .
Project Manager: so you're gonna have the three different sets of of functionalities , um I mean do you wanna group them into s head of the snowman , body of the snowman , inside of the snowman , is that what you're thinking ?
User Interface: Um {vocalsound} well I think the advanced ones the the ones you don't usually use could be hid inside .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: B um I think the {gap} we had were fairly basic ones , they'd have to go on the the front somewhere .
Project Manager: Okay right um what else do you need to talk about ?
Marketing: Well i I was just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Where would you physically position the buttons ? Um I think that that has some impact on on on many things .
Marketing: Yeah {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Um maybe you wanna draw onto the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So I'm just gonna um pop this in here 'cause I have a slide about decision making which I'd forgotten about .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: Oh sh God we've got five minutes um okay uh back we go . Um energy what {disfmarker} do you think that's suggesting we're {disfmarker} how we're powering the thing ? I really like the idea of this kinetic thing where you'd have the back-up of the battery , but have have kinetic power ,
Marketing: Yeah , sure .
Project Manager: I mean what does anybody think about that ?
Marketing: Um I've had kinetic things before , and the the the one issue we need to keep in mind with them is that you're committing the user to moving it ,
Industrial Designer: No , like I said we have a h hybrid kind of thing , so it's not gonna charge the battery , it's just {disfmarker}
Marketing: and watches yeah {disfmarker} Sure , okay , right , okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Support for it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: I mean just {disfmarker} it's just worth pointing out because like I've I've known I've known people to have kinetic watches that they wear all the time ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and it's just like magic because it's always powered and there's no battery . I've also known people to have {vocalsound} things like like a jewellery watch they wear from time to time , and they eventually just say it's just too much of a nuisance because I don't wear it all the time .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: Like remote control is similar , you're away on vacation , I dunno whatever , you something , and it just starts to get worn down .
Project Manager: Yeah . Well I suppose that if you're if you're away and you're not using it , then you're not using any power either .
Marketing: So we should think about {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So you'd have the battery as the kind of {disfmarker} to keep it ticking over idea {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I'm really sorry we're gonna have to wrap up quite quickly , we don't have as much time as I thought . Um so I think that's what energy is referring to here .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: Chip on print , is that {disfmarker} that's an industrial design thing , is it David ?
Industrial Designer: Yes yes .
Project Manager: Okay um as for the case , kind of discussed that {disfmarker}
Marketing: And this size here , I'd suggest this be small , like quite small .
Project Manager: Yeah I know we're gonna have like rubber buttons that feel kind of {disfmarker} Okay .
User Interface: Yeah I think so yeah .
Marketing: Um just a a lot of the um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean one of the things running through my mind right now , I realise we're being efficient to wrap up the meeting and have lots of decisions made ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: um but we are leaning quite a bit to the side of being low-tech , rubber buttons plastic frame , it's almost like we're reproducing the same old remote control that's out there .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
Marketing: Should we think about how we are actually getting this high-tech user friendly uh um theme {disfmarker} like what is it that we're u we're using to to achieve those goals ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Could have things like backlighting the buttons and stuff like that .
Marketing: Like {disfmarker} Okay so so backlighting , that would be good .
Industrial Designer: Or even a clear case . Um you know a a glowing a a glowing yellow type case where the yellow is showable ,
Marketing: Yeah clear ,
Project Manager: Aye that would be a good idea .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: but in the dark it sort of , it's alive {vocalsound} .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah sure .
Industrial Designer: Um in in a slight subtle way .
Project Manager: S so like cur slightly transparent case , so it's yellow , like tinted yellow , but you can maybe see through it .
Marketing: Yeah that'd be really good .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Or or there might be a light running through it like a mouse .
Project Manager: Is that what you mean ?
Industrial Designer: You know you have cordless mice and they don't eat that much power right .
Marketing: Sure .
Industrial Designer: So the power {disfmarker} the battery in that sense ,
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: maybe you have one or two stratig strategically placed lights
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: that sort of {disfmarker}
Marketing: Sure . Yeah they they emanate a light through it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: but because the case is transparent so it gives it a little bit of a glow , doesn't make it freaky .
Project Manager: Lights .
Marketing: 'Kay . Yeah ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: mm-hmm . Um and then the other thing that we we're s we've committed ourselves to achieving is simplicity , and so I'm thinking maybe should we try and think about having something like um some kind of an innovative concept about how the um the volume and the channels are controlled , 'cause that's the main thing people will f wanna do .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Could we use like a jog dial , like a nice just sort of round , somewhere on it where you just roll it ?
Industrial Designer: The question is when you're rolling it , how do you wanna roll it ?
Marketing: Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Do you want 'em to roll it like that ? Do you want 'em to roll it like that ? 'Cause in a mouse your hand's in a position to roll it ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: whereas the other thing about having it jog dial this way , it tends to get moved accidentally .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah if you are holding it in your hand you could you could do that , couldn't you ?
Marketing: Well why don't we do it like a mouse then ?
Project Manager: If you're holding it in your hand you could {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That's a very unnatural motion to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do you think ?
Industrial Designer: yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Can you imagine you have to scroll a lot . Um it might work for volume , and maybe some of the brightness controls and stuff like that ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but not for channels right .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: If you have a Telewest box you've got like , you don't have to buy all the channels ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: you've about fifty channels , can you imagine trying to {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Yeah
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: okay okay
Industrial Designer: Um and I don't think having that you know too quick too slow kin it's confusing to the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , sure .
Project Manager: um {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , but then for um for skipping a large amount of channels you do have to uh to skip the channel button , the number part .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: I dunno . But users tend to tend to want to use that
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and once they lose out on the user experience they're like {disfmarker} Because that's becomes the most accessible thing in front of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Uh but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: But that's not a bad thing is it ?
Project Manager: Just {disfmarker}
Marketing: Because when you think about it , the alternative is to go push the button .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Jog dials are much easier than that .
Project Manager: Okay um right well wouldn't it {disfmarker}
Marketing: You just roll .
Project Manager: we do need to make a decision on whether we want to incorporate a jog dial in nice and quickly . Um I'm all for them actually , I think they're quite {disfmarker} you know th very quick to m to use .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: So does anybody oppose the idea of of incorporating one into the design at all ? No . And the other thing was um can we think of any way of getting the slogan into this thing ?
Marketing: Yeah like I mean if we if if we keep coming back to this board here ,
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Marketing: I wouldn't be surprised if we could take this idea , imagine that , I dunno , that it's within the shape of the hand , it's quite small {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh-huh ooh okay , we really gotta wrap up
Marketing: I dunno .
Project Manager: so yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . It's small , and that we've got like the the l slogan somewhere like on the casing at the side ,
Project Manager: Okay well if we can do that , great .
Marketing: and that yeah {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah okay .
Marketing: well I mean isn't that what we just h said said we s just have to decide now ?
Project Manager: Yeah let's let's try and get the slogan on there um , and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So you wanna expand the shape of the {disfmarker}
Marketing: And then like a jo And then like a jog dial somewhere that fits in with the shape of it like I dunno like here , in with the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That that might have one problem in terms of um in terms of whether you're left handed or you're right handed you might be locking yourself in .
Marketing: It would get bumped , it's {disfmarker} doesn't really fit with your hand .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Or maybe just fit it in like down the middle here .
Industrial Designer: Could I just could I just jump in and suggest something quickly ?
Project Manager: Okay . Right I'm gonna have to {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: A jog di
Project Manager: I'm really gonna have to hurry you on here 'cause we're we're actually over time .
Marketing: Yeah
Project Manager: Um is there anything anybody's unsure about ?
Marketing: . It's kind of yeah {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Just for {disfmarker} in closing just {disfmarker} the next meeting's gonna be in thirty minutes , and so you can see in the screen here what each of you are gonna hopefully be doing , uh I know that the designers are gonna be working with Play-doh on that .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So um {vocalsound} that'll be that'll be good .
Marketing: Huh .
Project Manager: Um and I'll get the the minutes up as soon as possible . Anything at all you think we haven't discussed that we need to ? Is everybody kind of happy about what they're gonna be doing ?
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Um I think one thing would be the jog dial 'cause that's gonna have quite a big impact on the thing um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah I think the jog dial , you know it just after you drew that , what if it was flat and you just spun it ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah that's what I was thinking the {disfmarker}
Marketing: that'd be great .
Industrial Designer: a slide , because then you you don't have to put the hand .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I think incorporating a logo is quite straight forward .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: There's lots of space for it um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: That's kind of a design thing that you guys can can discuss , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but it's also a a marketing and a function {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sure , yeah ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: yeah and materials we sorta said we'd do plastic and rubber , didn't we ,
Industrial Designer: {gap} Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: and I think maybe we should try and stay away from just the big protruding rubber buttons , 'cause that'd just be so standard .
Project Manager: To make something flush with the case ?
Marketing: Something a bit more flush , yeah ,
Project Manager: Okay right .
Marketing: or maybe have rubber incorporated into the case as well ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: so that it has {disfmarker} and also t plastic I've seen can get really textured , so you can get plastics that actually feel soft in your hand .
Project Manager: Sp kinda grippy ?
Industrial Designer: Feel like fruit .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Fruits kids {vocalsound} .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: They feel kind of like um , you get pens now and then that you'd think that they were rubber but they're not ,
Industrial Designer: No like {disfmarker} Yeah yeah .
Marketing: they're actually just plastic that's textured ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah kinda like that yeah .
Marketing: kind of a little bit like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to call this to a close 'cause we're way over time . So um that's really good , like we've s had much to talk about that um pretty much run out of time to do so .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: So off you go and design stuff
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: wooh {vocalsound} .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Play-doh time .
Project Manager: Yeah quite jealous actually .
Industrial Designer: You got to choose first . {vocalsound} No , we're kidding .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay , can I just swipe your power cable , I don't think it matters . {vocalsound} Okay lemme {disfmarker} okay , I'm gonna pull everybody out first and then put in whoever needs to be left . It's you . Argh . This is a real hassle and a {disfmarker} oops . I'm gonna take the microphones , 'cause it's {disfmarker} too lazy t take them off again . Cool . | |
doc_158 | Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Julie Morgan, and I'm very pleased to welcome David Rees, who is substituting for her today. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you very much. Item 2 this morning, then, is a session with the Minister for Children and Social Care on the Welsh Government's childcare offer. So, I'm very pleased to welcome Huw Irranca-Davies, Minister for Children and Social Care, also Jo-Anne Daniels, director for communities and tackling poverty, and Owain Lloyd, deputy director for childcare, play and early years. So, thank you, all, for your attendance. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first questions come from Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: Good morning, Minister. How has it gone in the early implementer local authority areas, and is it something of a mixed bag?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: It's gone well, but I'm glad we've done it through this process of early implementer, actually piloting it, because we're learning lessons as we go along. It has gone well. It's been encouraging, to the extent that we're at the point where we're expanding—we've made announcements on expanding some of the early implementer areas so we can learn more lessons. But, in terms of what we're learning, one is the bureaucracy around the current approach that we're taking, because it's being done on the seven early implementers. So, we're asking parents to come in, provide their wage slips, provide the birth certificates, and so on. You're dealing sometimes with parents and families with complex issues and complex backgrounds, so it's difficult. And the burden of administration on that is falling to each pilot area. In one case, it's a whole authority, but it's only one—that's in Blaenau Gwent. In others, it's smaller areas. So, we're also hitting those—. The other big challenge we're hitting is communication. So, we're having parents, generally, who are outside the areas entirely saying, 'Why haven't we got this yet? Can we please get into it?', which is encouraging. But the other thing we're having is people who are within pilot authorities, where it doesn't extend to the whole authority, saying, 'Well, hold on now, we think we qualify for something under universal care, we think we qualify for something on tax credits. Why don't we qualify for this?' 'Well, you're not in the pilot area.' So, we're learning about these things, but the biggest one, I have to say, is the administrative burden, and I think that's interesting in how we take this forward for a wider roll-out.
Hefin David AM: What is the administrative burden? What specifically is that?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: It is that sheer burden on each local authority, and each pilot area, to administer a scheme where we are asking parents to prove eligibility, to bring in documents to prove their eligibility, to make adjustments as it goes forward based on what their changing work patterns are, what their salary slips say. It's incredibly bureaucratic. So, yesterday, when we made the statement following the announcement of the introduction of the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, we made clear that our preferred option, as put within that framework Bill, is actually to build on, and to learn from the lessons as well, the model of the HM Revenue and Customs type of model, where you actually have—and this, by the way, is supported by local authority providers out there—one system that is a centralised system, where there is clarity, that is handled, that has elements of information sharing between Government departments, such as the Department for Work and Pensions, and so on, so that the work is done for the parents, and the work is done for the local authorities; much cleaner, much simpler.
Hefin David AM: How confident are you that you can achieve that by 2020?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We are very confident. But, as I say, I'm more confident in the fact that we're actually piloting it, and phasing this in, because I think we've learned from some of the experiences elsewhere, including just over the border in England, where they have a different version of a childcare offer, but they've gone for it in a big-bang approach. And it has led to technical issues, it's led to volume issues, where their anticipation of how many people would buy into it was overwhelmed by the numbers who actually then came forward for it, and the complexity, I have to say, of individual family situations, whereas what we are doing, Hefin, is taking this forward very, very carefully. Each roll-out, each expansion that we're doing of the pilot is not—and I know this has caused some people to come back and say, 'Why can't we all have it now?' It's because we're only rolling out to areas where we now need to learn a lesson about whether it's rurality or, as it will be within densely urban areas, where the cost might be slightly higher, and that's allowing us to have the confidence that we'll have it. We've expanded the whole offer across Gwynedd—the whole of Gwynedd, Anglesey and Caerphilly. Flintshire now have a cross-authority offer. Rhondda Cynon Taf is anticipating doing this by September. Swansea is planning to do it, they tell us, in due course—in short order—as well. So, we have the confidence now that, with that learning going on from different pilot areas, we'll have the full roll-out by 2020.
Hefin David AM: Is it true to say that, in the early adopter areas, the intensity of demand for the services is not spread evenly across?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Absolutely.
Hefin David AM: And why is that? Is that going to cause a problem across Wales?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: No, it won't cause a problem. If we were doing this tomorrow, it would cause a problem, but what we're learning is that there are some economic issues and then there are some cultural issues. So ,there are issues to do with—. It's not capacity, by the way. We're not finding a problem here with capacity, whether it's in English language provision or whether it's in Welsh language provision, whether it's in children with complex needs, we're not finding that as an issue. But what we are finding is, for example, one of the well-known ones—and I've spoken about this before—is that, in some of the south Wales Valleys constituencies, there is a family tradition of doing childcare within the families. I've done it myself. Grandparents, aunts, uncles and so on provide free, unregistered, unlicensed childcare of a sort. Now that isn't what the scheme is about, by the way, I have to say. So, some of the aspects are cultural, but what we're also doing alongside this, whilst looking at the capacity and looking at how we learnt from the pilot roll-out, is that communication with parents and providers and local authorities as well. So, we have a whole programme running alongside it. It's about communicating what the offer is, how simple it is to get invovled in this and where they go to, and, critically, I think, how we do that national roll-out would be important as well.
Hefin David AM: So, given the point you've made about grandparents and family, wouldn't it be sensible, then, to offer a subsidy to grandparents to provide this kind of care?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Unregistered grandparents?
Hefin David AM: Well, through some kind of analysis of that.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Well, we don't think so and there are good reasons behind this.
Hefin David AM: Is it because you say that they wouldn't be registered as carers for their own family member?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, but there's a deeper reason behind that registration as well. The childcare offer isn't only to just provide childcare; it's the wider aspects that come with this. This childcare offer ties into the foundation years offer. There's an element of education linked to the childcare offer—there's that 10 hours of the early education foundation years as well. The two tie together. So, there's an issue here with quality, about socialisation and how children learn in an environment, as opposed to purely—as great as all our grandparents and aunts and uncles are—simply child-minding. That's one important distinction. So, the focus of this scheme is very much on registered licensed providers, which could be, by the way—because we do have them, and we're discussing this at the moment internally and with the Professional Association for Childcare and Early Years and others—grandparents who are actually registered and inspected by the care inspectorate? We're having those discussions.
Hefin David AM: How many of them are there?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We don't think there is a huge number, but we're trying to bottom this out at the moment. We haven't got the exact number, but we don't think they are huge numbers, but there are, in our constituencies, registered, licensed, inspected grandparents who look after other people's children in a little group of four or five or six or seven, but also their own grandchildren.
Hefin David AM: So, they're a kind of grandparents club.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes. Now that, I would say to you—and I know that Darren raised this on the floor yesterday as well—is markedly different in the nature of it, because it's registered and licensed, than simply informal grandparents or aunts or uncles. I say that as well because we also get people who will say to us, 'I don't want to be paid for looking after my grandchildren; I look after my grandchildren because I look after them'.
Hefin David AM: And what about the view, given that you said that capacity wasn't an issue, of the National Day Nurseries Association, which says that Wales has the most fragile childcare sector in Great Britain?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: I don't agree we have the most fragile, but the childcare offer gives us an opportunity to make it more resilient and more robust. We know from the early piloting, and as we roll it out, that there is the immense diversity within the childcare sector, and we're talking about everything from those very small terraced homes that have been licensed and registered to take six or seven children, to large, complex environments that perhaps are on maintained premises within school premises, provided by a voluntary or third sector organisation. So, there's immense complexity and we know that that differs across Wales, and we also know there's immense regional variation in the scale and the type of childcare offer. What the roll-out allows us to do, backed by £60 million of capital money behind it, in terms of capital development of childcare facilities, backed by a 10-year workforce development plan for childcare—and bear in mind this is bolted in as part of our foundational economy approach as well—that means, by 2020, we get to the point where we're putting the money into the capital development but also to the workforce development, because in some areas we're finding it's not to do with lack of provision and facilities, it's to do with lack of staff. In other areas, we're finding there are plenty of staff but not the adequate facilities. We've got to get it right.
Hefin David AM: That's fair enough, but is it realistic to think that there's going to be capacity growth in the next two to three years to deliver the product? Is that realistic to think that that foundational sector can provide that level of staffing?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, I think it is, absolutely, because, again, what we're finding is we've got several things going on at once in terms of how we monitor and assess the development of this roll-out. One is the work that we're doing on the ground with the phased roll-out, so we're literally learning live time, and I have pretty much weekly or fortnightly updates on how things are going, but also there is a termly update as well. We've also commissioned additional work from Arad to look at this first phase of the roll-out that we've done to see what that tells us as well. But the feedback that we're getting from the childcare providers themselves, on the basis that we're now identifying where either the gaps in the workforce or the physical facilities are, is that, 'Yes, we can do this', because we're putting the money in, we have the strategy for the workforce development, and it's not going to be the same in all parts of Wales. It's not as if what we're saying is, 'Here's what we're going to do all of a sudden—flick a switch and we have a universality of the same type of provision everywhere.' So, let me give you one key example. Alongside this, alongside the £60 million capital fund, alongside the workforce development, we've also identified a separate strain of money into cylch meithrin. We know that there is a shortage in parts of Wales for Welsh language childcare development. We're specifically putting money into developing that, and, in fact, the first one of those will be, from that new tranche of money, opening up, I think, in September. They anticipate, as part of our big strategy with Welsh language development, we'll have an additional 40 of those by—
Jo-Anne Daniels: Thirty.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: It's an additional 30 by 2020, and an additional doubling of that in the 10 years after that. We can't take this for granted, Hefin. This is difficult. This is hard work, but we have everything in place to make it happen.
Hefin David AM: The last thing from me: the £4.50 single national rate—is there a danger that we might be creating a kind of EasyJet-style nursery provision where you get the basics but the wealthier parents are going to be able to pay for better care within those settings because of the add-ons?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We really mulled over this a lot and discussed it, I have to say, not only internally but with childcare providers out there and with parents as well and with local authorities. The first thing to say is the £4.50 rate that we've set has been welcomed, and it's been welcomed because it's unlike the much more complex offer that's in England, where there's a variable rate and there are lots of determining factors on it and it's added complexity and confusion.
Hefin David AM: Can I just ask there, it's been welcomed perhaps in Blaenau Gwent, but has it been equally welcomed in Cardiff?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: No, because we haven't rolled it out in Cardiff yet, and that is a salient point.
Hefin David AM: Okay, fair enough. But will it be, then?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, it will be. Some of the more expensive areas like Cardiff and Newport are knocking on our door saying, 'Please can we have this offer?', and we are keen to give it to them. But, as I say—
Hefin David AM: But do you anticipate a capacity problem with the £4.50 in those areas, compared to, say, the Cynon valley?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We can't anticipate it yet, Hefin, but that's exactly the reason for going into that area and then assessing how it works. We're reasonably confident that the £4.50—. We're reasonably assured by the feedback that we're having that the £4.50 might work as a universal amount. But if we learn, when we roll it out in Cardiff and Newport, that there needs to be some variation, we can look at that, because we're not doing a big-bang approach. So, that is part of why we will move to roll it out within Cardiff and Newport and other more expensive areas and learn from it, but at the moment, I have to say, the £4.50 amount has been welcomed—it's appropriate. You touched on the other aspect, though, of the wider aspects of beyond the £4.50, because the £4.50 doesn't cover everything. The £4.50 is a contribution towards the wraparound childcare element but it doesn't cover—and we agonised over this—the issues of things like transport out on trips or food or snacks and things like this. Now, we did agonise a number of things that brought us to the conclusion where we are. I have to say, this hasn't been ivory-tower stuff; it's been in discussion with the providers but also parents. One: parents are quite used to—with childcare settings and play care settings and so on—the idea that providers are quite different. Some providers charge a fee that does everything in one; others provide simply the childcare element but they tell the parents—and I'm used to this as a parent myself, although mine are older now—'Mr Irranca-Davies, when you sign on, just to be aware, if we do take your kids down to St Fagans, there's going to be a little bit of a charge for that' and so on.
Hefin David AM: That's fair enough, but it would be the lowest-income working families who would be most unduly affected by that, because the higher income families would be able to afford those add-ons, the lower income ones won't. Isn't that a concern?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: If money was absolutely no object, then I think you'd be looking at quite a different offer, but it has to be affordable within what we've got as well. The fact that parents, including those who are on lower incomes, are used to currently discriminating between providers, not only with childcare settings but also within school settings as well, where very often schools now will say, 'We're doing something extra'—
Hefin David AM: That may be the case, but it's not fair, is it?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: In a pure argument about equity, and if funding was no object and if the burdens of austerity were released and we were told we had money—'You can do what you want'—I think you'd be looking at a very different approach. But within what we have, I think this works very, very well indeed, because it's very transparent for parents who are used to making these decisions. It says, 'Here you have 10 hours of the foundation education offer. You have the additional hours here provided with the childcare offer. But within those additional hours, you may be with a local provider in the middle of Powys that actually says, "Within that we provide everything"; you may be with a provider that says, "Well, actually, we do a whistles and bells thing and we take them out on trips, but it's up to you if you want to come, and here's the additional cost—".' Parents are used to making that decision and realistically, in terms of what we can do with this offer, this is actually—the arguments around this have been well rehearsed both with providers and with parents and we're not getting any concerns that this is going to unnecessarily disadvantage. In a total fairness argument, would you make it universal and with no additional charges? Well, possibly you would. But we work within the realistic—
Hefin David AM: Or have a lower top-end income limit.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Depending on how the Bill progresses in the main Chamber and when it goes through committee, there's that flexibility built into the Bill that those things can be looked at over time and adjusted. For the moment, I think there is an attraction, in terms of the upper limit, of saying: one—'Let's try not to add additional complexity, let's go with a scheme that's already working its way through the system, which is, if you like, what they're doing in England, and not add additional complexity. But, secondly, there is an appeal to universality, curiously, in saying to all parents—and I say this regardless of political hues across the committee here—there's an attraction when you say, 'Let's make an offer focused on working parents as it is', as universal to those working parents as possible, and avoid the administrative costs of saying, 'Well, let's take the upper limit down to £80 or £60 or £55.' There's always the question of how much additional cost is incurred in actually doing that tweak of complexity. We have looked at it.
Lynne Neagle AM: Darren on this.
Darren Millar AM: Just to ask, I mean, the labour market costs are changing, aren't they? You've got the national living wage increasing—[Inaudible.]—that's going to have a bearing, isn't it, on the affordability of this project in terms of the childcare offer and the suitability of the £4.50 per hour regime? By the time it's fully rolled out, of course, that £4.50 rate is going to be a number of years old, for example. Do you have plans to review that? Where is it headed? Because it's certainly not going to be enough in the future.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: It depends how far in the future you're looking. I have to say, the feedback that we're having at the moment from organisations like the Professional Association for Childcare and Early Years and from the National Day Nurseries Association Wales and others is that this is the right rate and it's suitable not only today but for the foreseeable future of rolling this out.
Darren Millar AM: But they've raised concerns about the national living wage implications, haven't they, as well?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Of course, and I think it's incumbent on us as well to not—
Darren Millar AM: So, it's not fair to say that they haven't raised concerns about the rate.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, but what they're not arguing for at the moment is for this rate to be raised.
Darren Millar AM: But they have suggested that in meetings—
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: That in future—
Darren Millar AM: Absolutely.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Well, of course, in future, any Minister, any committee, will want to come back and look at—is the hourly rate, as one element of the scheme, appropriate to the current financial challenges for the sector, and not least, by the way, as we try not only to develop the workforce, but to develop the career pathways through this as well? And I think that's the right discussion to be had, live time, as this is taken forward. But at this moment in time, we're not getting people saying within this part of the roll-out that we need to adjust this amount.
Darren Millar AM: So, have you forecasted for any adjustment in the rate going forward in terms of affordability of the project? Because you've still got this £100 million price tag on it, haven't you?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Similar to the point that was raised with Hefin about Cardiff and Newport, if we identify that the rate is not appropriate, if it's—. I don't think anybody's going to come back to us and say that it's too little. But do bear in mind that it's above where the average England rate is, even though there's this complex variability within the English rate that has caused some confusion there, which is why the universal rate with us has been welcomed. If we find, as we pilot it, or if we find because there are more expensive areas for it to be delivered in, there needs to be adjustment, then we'll be back in front of the committee arguing why that needs to be the case.
Darren Millar AM: But that won't put the project at risk in terms of its finances?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: No, no. We are still very confident, looking forward, on the best projections we have, fed by the live input that's coming in from the pilot, which will be fed again in the autumn—the Arad report coming forward—that we have not only the capacity to actually deliver this—challenging as this is, we have the capacity to deliver it—but also that the funding that's available, on our best estimate—the estimate we've stood by, that broad ball park of that £100 million figure—it's deliverable within that. But if it changes, we will come back. And if it changes, I'll have to be sitting down with my boss, Vaughan Gething, and with Mark Drakeford, to argue the case on it. But at this moment, we have confidence and we've run the rule across this repeatedly. But that rate, combined with the other elements of this childcare offer—there is sufficient there allocated to actually deliver the whole roll-out.
Lynne Neagle AM: Mark on this.
Mark Reckless AM: Minister, as a parent who's been researching childcare options, it's obvious to me that in Cardiff, and to a degree in Newport and Monmouthshire, costs are substantially higher than this, and I haven't been able to find anywhere that has a six-hour day for £27, which is implied by your rate. Isn't it the case that rents and wages are higher and therefore you're going to need a higher rate to make it work? Isn't that already obvious? Why are you postponing coming back and looking at this until some point in the future?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Chair, my biggest fear is a parent who's actually involved in this area already, but, having been one myself—. Mark, you may be right, that's exactly why we're piloting it and that's why when we pilot in Cardiff and Newport, we know we have lessons to learn over the affordability and the £4.50 per hour rate.
Mark Reckless AM: But you're not piloting it in any of the high-cost areas that I've referred to.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: No. We will be. We are going to be.
Mark Reckless AM: When are you starting?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Cardiff and Newport—September.
Owain Lloyd: This September.
Mark Reckless AM: This September?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes. So, we're not missing any of these learning experiences and we know that—. The reason we've gone for the other areas first, by the way—please take this back to any authorities affected—is simply because we've done deep dives into areas that vary from very rural areas in mid Wales, areas in north Wales, areas around Welsh language provision, areas in deep valleys, understanding the cultural and the economic impacts. So, we've held back a little bit from going into what we know is an obvious challenge within the more expensive areas of provision. But it's coming, it's imminent, and we'll learn the lessons from it. And do you know, you may be right? And if you are right, that it's more expensive, and we need a higher rate within those areas, then we're going to have to come back and discuss it with the committee. But let's go in and learn it first of all, rather than assume it necessarily.
Lynne Neagle AM: Just before I bring David in on the issue that Hefin raised about the chargeable items, your paper says that providers can charge up to £7.50 a day for food, snacks, transport and consumables such as nappies. Now, that's £37.50 a week, which is a lot of money for parents, and I just wondered if you wanted to comment on that figure? But also, do you think there's a risk that providers who maybe aren't charging at the moment may start charging because of any new pressures that arise because of this scheme?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: I think they're the right areas to flag up, and if I thought that was going to happen I'd be concerned as we take this forward and design this scheme. I think part of the evaluation from Arad will also show us that—whether or not, within the pilot areas that we are already in, which are quite diverse, that is happening. We're only one term into learning the lessons, by the way, but I would want to make sure that we design a scheme where we are not heaping on disadvantage or where there was exploitation of disadvantaged families. So, the early evaluation, I think, will give us good feedback on that. I think also, by the way, that providers know that this is a collaborative effort to do this here. It's not in their interests, I have to say, as the umbrella bodies or individual providers, to see this as some way that they can unduly rake in additional income from this on the backs of poorer families. This is about providing opportunities for all working families. But especially, I have to say, the early evaluation that we've seen already suggests that the greatest proportion of those who are taking advantage of this scheme in the early parts—in the early evaluation—are those who are below the average working wage within in Wales. That's by far the greatest number of people who are doing it, and we don't want them then being priced out because of add-ons. So, there has to be some pragmatism, I have to say, and some open partnership working here with the sector, and we do have that.
Lynne Neagle AM: John on this.
John Griffiths AM: I want to come back to the £4.50 rate, but in terms of working with the sector, briefly, if I might, Chair, I just wonder, Huw, in terms of that £4.50 figure and understanding the sector in Wales, to what extent are we talking about a market rate and to what extent are we talking about the increase in demand that will come from the scheme and how that relates to economies of scale and capacity? Is it purely a market rate or is there a conversation with the sector in terms of the benefits that will come from this scheme and how they should be recognised in terms of setting the rate?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: This has been a very open dialogue with the sector around affordability, around the hourly rate and around what might happen in future as well. This is not a pure hard data-driven analysis that says, 'Here we've calculated everything and this is the rate that will satisfy it', because we recognise that there's great diversity in provision out there, and we also recognise that things will change over time. It's not only the geographical diversity—it's the diversity of the sector itself. I think we need to, as we take this scheme forward and look at the full roll-out, continue in that very open dialogue with the sector not about what is purely a market-driven amount but actually what is also affordable for the Welsh Government within the constraints that we have. Just to flag up one issue, it's right that we're focusing on those elements that aren't included within it, to some extent as well, and the effect of that on more disadvantaged families, but that has to be balanced with the pocket of affordability for this scheme as well. Let me give you a clear illustration: some of our calculations have suggested that if we included free food within this offer as well, it would add something like in the region of 50p to that £4.50 rate. That would have, at this moment, impacts on the affordability of this and the roll-out of it. I would need to be going back to my seniors and arguing the case now, okay? But, it's that open dialogue with the sector that says, 'There's one thing about what you're saying you demand as a market; there's another thing about what we're saying that we have affordability from taxpayers' money to actually put into this'. They also understand, John, that as well as an enabling policy—and we're seeing the evidence, by the way; I can cite it—of individuals who are being helped into more flexible options to get back into work, increase their hours and so on, this is also about building capacity in a fundamental foundation sector that is in every single part of Wales. The stuff that's being debated ad nauseam here within the Assembly about foundational sectors—. The sector itself understands that if we boost the childcare offer in all its diversity, including, by the way, not just the independent sector but social enterprises and third-sector organisations, such as exist in Neath and elsewhere that I was involved in 20 or 30-odd years ago setting up—that has an economic impact that goes beyond that immediate family who are receiving the provision to the wider communities as well. They know that. They know there is job creation within this and there's economic impact for that. So, it's an open dialogue on what the rate should be rather than purely, 'Our wonks have crunched the numbers and we've come up with £4.50.'
Lynne Neagle AM: David, you had a question on the pilots.
David Rees AM: Yes, just to finish that section off, if I may, Chair. Before I go to my question, I want to come back to Mark Reckless's question and the answer you gave. I got the impression that if there is a need to look at different rates because of the higher-end areas, you may therefore have different sets of rates and not a universal rate. Is that also on the cards?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: David, it's possible. I think our preference would be, I have to say, to stick with the universal rate, because we know it's—. There's real simplicity and it's been welcomed in the sector. But the sector, also, are quite pragmatic about this. One of the defining hallmarks of the way that we've taken this scheme forward is learning in live time as we pilot and expand the pilots into different areas and different types of provision. If we learn lessons from that that suggest we need to come back and look at a differential in more-expensive-to-provide areas, then we'll have to look at that, but there might be other ways of splicing it. But first of all, I think we have to go in and see how does this work. We might find, Mark, we might find, David, that we go in and when everything is tallied up, the £4.50 per hour works in supporting provision there.
David Rees AM: Okay. In your answer to John, you talked about affordability, which I totally understand. If I can now remind you: I don't remember the word 'affordability' coming in the manifesto pledge of the Government. It was 'we will offer childcare facilities'. So, I just want to put a reminder to you there.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Ministers always look at affordability.
David Rees AM: Well, voters don't. In the situation regarding Welsh-medium, you answered that a little bit earlier, but I have concerns about capacity. Workforce capacity you've mentioned. To actually be registered you need staff who are qualified. There's clearly a need to get more staff, because in your own paper you say that the report in 2016 said you do not have the childcare capacity in Wales at the moment. Do you believe that you can actually deliver the workforce to meet that capacity, first of all through the English medium, but secondly through the Welsh medium as well? Because there's a clear need to look at it. You talk about 30 by 2020. By the way, 30 is nothing big when you consider the whole of Wales. Do you actually think you've got that workforce capacity set up before this is fully rolled out?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: I hope, Chair, you'll appreciate that in our submission to you we've been very open. This is challenging. This is. To get to where we want to go is a huge challenge. Can we do it? Yes we can. And I don't say that glibly. Let me suggest some of the ways why. We have confidence that we can do this if everybody is working together across the sector, across the local authorities. Let me talk broadly about capacity, first of all, including English and Welsh-medium provision for children with complex needs, provision for children with disabilities—all of this. First of all, this is being—. The work that we're doing to increase both capacity in terms of trained staff and qualified staff: we have the 10-year plan that I mentioned, which has already been announced. We're working through it. We're working through it with the sector. So, we're identifying not only broadly at a national level where we need to develop those qualifications, but also at a regional, geographic level as well, and that's being taken forward. We've engaged with the 22 authorities—not just the pilot areas as well on this. So, beyond the pilot areas, we also have intense engagement. As you can see from what I've said before, it's rolling out progressively, but with all 22 authorities we're working with them on their childcare sufficiency assessments to identify where their shortages are.
David Rees AM: What have the pilot programmes actually shown you about this, and how are you going to move this forward?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Well, it's precisely that. So, within the pilot areas, we have a greater depth of analysis now of where both the workforce and the physical provisions are. Whether those are maintained or non-maintained or third sector or school facilities or whatever, we've got a much deeper granulation of identifying where that is, and we're working, then, with those authorities, with the capital moneys that we've allocated to this and the workforce development, and with local colleges, to develop the workforce and the physical constraints. But we're also doing that with the other 22, with all the 22 authorities as well, in anticipation of the wider roll-out. They're not being left out of this. And by the way, it's not only the Cardiffs and the Newports; it's all the other ones where there isn't full roll-out. We're engaged with them deeply at the moment with that analysis on their childcare sufficiency assessments, both in terms of workforce, but also physical provision. So, we're doing that already. We are looking as well, as this is rolled out, around the issue of co-location. Now, co-location is a fruitful way to look at future development. It doesn't mean, by the way, that we exclude the third sector or social enterprise approach, or the independent sector, but co-location could be key to the roll-out of this in the right areas where it can be done, because then we avoid any fracture between the education hours and the childcare hours: the physical transportation of children from one location to another. So, we're engaged with the 22 authorities on that: where could that be developed, who would be the providers that would do it and do they have the workforce to scale up to do it? If not, how do they talk to local colleges to do that? So, we're doing that at the moment. I mentioned we've put the £1 million additional funding into the meithrin over the next two years, targeting 40 new Welsh-medium groups by 2021, which pretty much coincides with the full roll-out of this. It's part of the aim of an additional 150 over the next decade of meithrin. So, all of those things, David, give us a confidence that we're going to be in the right place.
David Rees AM: But in particular, take the Welsh language—I understand Gwynedd, and I won't ask another question on that for obvious reasons at this point in time—but in some of the other areas where you've piloted, you've gone partial in some areas. When there's Welsh language education, and the three to five-year-olds go to schools, they go from all areas of the council, basically. They don't actually go necessarily from the local area, and therefore you're getting a different picture. Have you been able to assess the actual impact, properly, upon the Welsh-medium side of things? Because, for example, my grandchildren will go from my area, which may not be in one of the considerations, to a school that may be in that consideration, and that happens regularly.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Absolutely. We know that historically we've got, across the country, a shortage of Welsh-language childcare provision—meithrin and so on—but we have not only a strategy in place, but the fact that we've got local authorities now doing their own assessments within their area, across the piste of childcare, but also in terms of Welsh language, that means then that we can start filling those gaps with the money we've put to it, and that includes in all parts of Wales, including those areas within south Wales and others that are less deep in their tradition of speaking Welsh over recent history, anyway, but where the demand for it is massive. So, local authorities are tasked with doing their own assessments of childcare sufficiency for this childcare offer. They're identifying the gaps, David, and we will work with them and with providers to fill those gaps, and that includes with the umbrella organisations for Welsh language childcare provision.
David Rees AM: And that's the same for those children with physical disabilities or learning disabilities.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Absolutely the same. Absolutely the same. And this does mean, Chair, that it will be different, as it currently is in different areas: the type of provision, where the provision is located. But the provision should be there. This offer won't happen unless the provision is there for those children with complex needs, children with disabilities, Welsh language provision, as well as more generic provision as well, but it will be diverse in its provision around areas.
Lynne Neagle AM: I do want to move on now, John, so if I can come back to your question. Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: I would like to pick up on the last point, if I may.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. The investment in meithrin, of course, is one that we all welcome. A question from me though, the wider question, is: how do we mainstream Welsh medium into childcare? Because, clearly, leaving it to meithrin is one way of doing it, but there's a lot of existing infrastructure out there that we need to upskill in terms of the provision of Welsh medium. So, it's not a question as such, but I'm sure you recognise that—that there is a challenge there. Because if we are to get to where we want to get to, it isn't about growing meithrin, or Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin; it's about mainstreaming Welsh-medium provision within the wider sector. So, it wasn't a question after all. So, looking at the manifesto commitment that was made in 2016, clearly the main or the principal aim of this policy is around removing some of the barriers to secure employment for parents, albeit with very positive outcomes for the children themselves, and we don't ignore or neglect that at any cost. But I'm just wondering: how would you then reconcile that with the findings of the Public Policy Institute for Wales report, which I mentioned to you yesterday, which was commissioned by the Government to look at policy options in this context, which concluded that there will be no 'substantial impacts on net income, poverty or work behaviour for families with children' and that 'the impact on work participation and work hours for mothers in families with a child of target age is extremely small'?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Well, the first thing I would say is that what we're learning from the pilots is that it is having real-life impacts on parents, including in disadvantaged families, and we're having this fed back from real-life situations on the ground, where parents are making different choices in the areas where it's being piloted. So, the types of different choices they're making could be to expand the number of hours that they're in work, because they now have a choice, they're not constrained to certain hours or whatever, they have a wider choice, with a wider number of providers, and they're making that decision and they're able to expand their hours. Some, by the way, Llyr, I have to say—and, again, these are real-life situations—are saying, 'What we're doing is not expanding our hours, but, because of the increased provision of childcare and the increased offer, we are now able to actually spend more time with our children, because we're adjusting our hours of work, based on the childcare provision offer.' That in itself, I have to say, is a worthy aim. But I would say what we found out, in real-life examples—I'm not saying that in direct contrast to what that paper was saying—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's what I was going to ask; it sounds as if you're saying they were wrong.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: But what we have is the advantage of this phased roll-out, where we are learning, live time, and I think the Arad report in October—we're hoping to see the final report in October—will help put some flesh on this as well. It is already having an effect: the majority of parents who are taking advantage of this are actually in those groups that are below the average wage, they are making positive choices to get into this offer and to either expand, take more hours, adjust their own lifestyles around it or more. So, it's having a positive effect. I can cite to you examples, because I've asked my own officials on this, of families who tell us they're saving up to £250 a week on the basis of this offer within the pilot areas, who've increased their hours of employment, who've changed their working patterns to suit their work life, but also to suit their families. Now, that's real stuff, as opposed to—yes.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, in effect, you are saying that the PPIW report got it wrong, basically.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: No, I'm not saying that they got it wrong and it's wholly wrong, but it is interesting, within that report, that it did identify that there were a range of factors here that play upon this. It's not only the childcare; it is the transport, it's the training and education, it's the employment support and all of those. And we agree with that, but we do think, and what we're seeing, live time, at the moment—maybe at some point, somebody else will produce a report beyond the Arad report in October that will say, 'Well, actually, the way this is designed, that they've done it in Wales, is having a material effect on those families, particularly the most disadvantaged families.'
Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you're asking us to support a Bill here, albeit a framework Bill, to achieve a policy aim where you're giving us anecdotal evidence that it's having an impact, contrary to research that's previously been done, albeit with promises that, maybe, an evaluation sometime in the autumn might tell us a different story.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We know, and we are constantly told—I'm sure this is commonplace in constituency surgeries, as well—by parents who say that the biggest mitigating factor for them, actually, either going into work at an earlier opportunity or expanding their hours is purely the cost of childcare in front of them. We are picking up, even from the early term of the analysis—. I think our further reports, both Arad and as we go forward with the pilots, will substantiate this more. It'll go beyond the anecdotal, it will show that parents are having an enhanced opportunity to balance their work life, to make better choices, either in terms of expanding the number of hours they're working and increasing their disposable income within their families, or actually making it simply better for them in their family situation, where they don't currently have that offer. So, I get the fact that we have one report out there, but it's one report. It's a report, and we're not dismissing it entirely, but what we are saying is: we are now working with real-life piloting of an offer, and we are seeing the benefits coming through. As we roll this out, we'll be back in front of this committee saying, 'Well, this is now what we're finding. We can go beyond the real-life stories that I'm relating to you now, and we can say, "Well, here's some hard data that goes with this, as well."'
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. You reference in your paper, as well, another report, which is the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development report, 'Starting Strong 2017', and it highlights countries that have, maybe, the most similar childcare offer to what's being proposed here in Wales. I'm just wondering what assessment you've made of those similarities, because, clearly, there'll be different economic contexts in different countries and different levels of public expenditure, et cetera.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We haven't done really detailed analysis of comparisons with other countries far from Wales, but we will be doing work that will be doing some benchmarking against, where we can find similar models, where appropriate—do some appropriate benchmarking. What we have been doing is looking at what's been happening across the border in England and trying to learn from the lessons there, and also the offer in Scotland as well, which are both close to hand. They're in quite similar contexts. But we will do some work, Llyr, around benchmarking against good comparative international examples, where appropriate.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, there we are, because one of my concerns was that the focus in a number of the countries in the OECD report are for nought to three-year-olds, whereas, of course, the policy focus here is for a slightly older age group.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, and I fully get that, but again, and I know it can be said, 'Well, this is an example' but it's real-life examples. We are having people who are telling us that they're now making the choice to go to work earlier because this is extended to three-year-olds, but they would have delayed. There is a direct outcome there if this childcare offer enables somebody to say, 'Well, I'm going to go a year earlier back into work and bring income into the family.'
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. So, moving on, then, to the impact on the child and this whole question around school readiness, of course, which is an important one to address. Clearly, one of the main outcomes of this policy will be the academic performance of children, hopefully, later on in life. I want to come back to this point that the Children's Commissioner for Wales and others have raised: the concern that, actually, the most disadvantaged—those from workless households—are being excluded from this policy. Isn't there therefore a risk that they'll be left even further behind?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: I've had long, detailed and positive discussions with the children's commissioner on this, and I know the children's commissioner would want a more universal offer, but I make two points on that: one is, that was not what the commitment in the manifesto was, and it's not the offer that's being taken forward now. It is a different thing, a universal offer, and there are issues around that with complexity, and also affordability. But it isn't the offer that we took forward into Government; this is what we're taking forward. But it is interesting in terms of that aspect of families then who lose out. I'd say two significant things on it: one is, this doesn't stand alone purely as 30 hours of childcare. Within this, there are 10 hours of the foundation years, educational input, which is there for everybody. But before that, particularly for those disadvantaged families, before we even get to that stage, you have schemes such as Flying Start, and I know this committee has looked in detail at Flying Start and has said that it would like to see it rolled out everywhere. If I had all the money under the sun, I would really do that, Chair; I would really do it. But I don't have all the money under the sun.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you do have the ability to target the money.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, but the fact that Flying Start, we know, is leading to those outcomes where those children, in quite challenged circumstances very often, are more ready to step up to the foundation year, are more ready, then, to step through into mainstream education in later years—those things tie together. So, there are the 10 hours of education provision that sits here for every family, by the way, within this offer, let alone the childcare. That doesn't mean that everybody's excluded, but it does mean, yes, that this offer is focused on working parents. And we don't think that that's a bad thing. In fact, it does overlap with other offers that other political parties were taking forward into the last election, which was focusing on how we support the biggest thing that we often have in our constituency mailbags, which is, 'I can't afford to go back to work because I can't afford the childcare. Don't tell me to go back to work, I can't afford it.'
Llyr Gruffydd AM: The majority of disadvantaged children don't live in Flying Start areas, do they?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, indeed.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, there's a missing cohort there that can't access one or the other, and the school readiness gap is growing, and, really, are we focusing our resources in the right place here?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Well, yes, in terms of this scheme, but it doesn't sit alone as this scheme—it's the wider plethora of, I have to say, progressive and advanced initiatives that we have in Wales that take different forms. It's not only Flying Start that provides that other support for parents, and readiness not only for the parents and for their children, but also the support into work. So, if, for example, you look at the Parents, Childcare and Employment programme, which is separate from this, there is support there for every parent in terms of helping them get supported into work from disadvantaged families. If you look at the support for the children, we've got the 10 hours that sits within the sphere of the education, but we've also got all the other family intervention programmes that help with socialisation, education and so on and so forth. If you look at this solely on its own and say, 'Well, there is nothing else there; the rest of Wales is a desert and there's no support for parents, for getting parents back into work or for those parents who are not seeking to go back into work but also need the support and for their children in education', I'd be worried. But, actually, this fits as part of the jigsaw that we have in Wales, where I think we are well ahead of the other nations. Yes, we could do more, and I always say, Llyr; I always say, Chair, that if I had—I don't have a chequebook at all, because it's not in my gift—if I had a blank cheque I'd do a lot more, but we don't. But what we can do is get the right schemes in place, and if this helps drive more choices for working parents, including, by the way—. There are niceties within this as well; it doesn't have to be that both parents are working. You could have a parent who is on incapacity benefit. You could have a parent who is a registered carer. They would qualify for the scheme. Those will be some of those most disadvantaged families that we both have those concerns about. So, there is some flexibility within this scheme as well to deal with some of those disadvantaged families.
Lynne Neagle AM: Darren on this.
Darren Millar AM: I am surprised by the answer there, particularly given that one of the ambitions of the Government is to close this attainment gap later in life when schoolchildren get to their examinations, when they're 16 years old. Yet this appears to be driving a bigger wedge in terms of development, which could, of course, lead to a perverse outcome later on in life, but I don't want to ask you about that. If I can just very quickly ask you: has consideration been given to making free childcare available to parents where they're in 16 hours or more of education each week? So, they may not be entering the labour market, but, of course, one of those barriers to them getting back into the labour market could well be their education, so what arrangements are in place there?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Darren, we have considered it, and we haven't included it within the scheme because this is designed to enable parents to go into work, not into training to enable them to get into work. There are other forms of support available for parents in terms of college and so on and so forth, but it's not this scheme.
Darren Millar AM: But it's not prescribed support, is it? You know, it's not universally available to people who might be wanting to get back into the labour market over that barrier. You must have done some costings, then, if you've considered it, and you must have tried to identify numbers.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: I'm looking to my left and my right.
Owain Lloyd: Not at this point.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We haven't—
Darren Millar AM: So, you haven't considered it that much, have you?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We have actually considered—. We consider it from the point of, 'What is this scheme set up to do?' It's very clear. When we ran, in the manifesto on this point—
Darren Millar AM: I understand that. I don't want you to repeat yourself because I know we are against the clock. But, very specifically, when you say you've considered it, what you mean is you thought about it but you've not costed it, you've not identified the numbers that might be involved—
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Absolutely, absolutely.
Darren Millar AM: And therefore you've not considered whether it might be affordable in addition to the policy objective that this is trying to meet.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: No, Darren, you're right: we haven't considered affordability because we've considered it on first principles to do with what this offer is trying to do. It doesn't fit within the offer so, as such, why would we do the costings?
Darren Millar AM: Perhaps I can frame my question in another way. Are you prepared to consider it if you're able to identify the numbers and potential cost?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Ah, right, okay. We'd be interested in your thoughts as a committee, but it doesn't actually fit within the first principles of what the scheme is designed to do. Darren, can I just pick up on your point, in case you misinterpreted what I was saying to Llyr? I drew attention in my answer to Llyr to schemes such as the PaCE scheme. In Gwynedd, one of our pilot areas, they are combining the Team Around the Family with this childcare offer. So, what they are doing is wrapping the support around. It is not the case, as you've suggested then, that there is somehow more disadvantage being heaped on other families. What this does is tie in in those pilot areas with the existing provision, and that's the way we want to see it work. So, I wouldn't want you to be under any misapprehension that this makes conditions worse for families. Those families who have a registered carer in them where one parent works, and those families who have somebody on incapacity benefit will qualify for the scheme. All families will qualify for the 10 hours of education. In Gwynedd, they're wrapping the Team Around the Family with this offer—
Darren Millar AM: But on the other hand, Minister, you've also suggested that this will accelerate child development for those kids who are able to access it, and yet not all kids will be able to access it, particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: But all children can access the 10 hours, and they can access Flying Start—
Darren Millar AM: But 10 hours is very different to 30 hours, is it not?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, but they can access Flying Start or they can access the Team Around the Family—
Darren Millar AM: If they're in a Flying Start area.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: —or they can be in a children's zone area or they can—
Darren Millar AM: If they're in those areas.
Lynne Neagle AM: Right, I've got John and then David, and the questions and answers are going to have to be brief, please.
John Griffiths AM: Yes, certainly, Chair. In terms of child development and how this fits with wider Welsh Government strategy, Huw, I'd be interested in what you'd have to say about the quality of childcare. We're talking a lot about quantity, but obviously we want to up quality, and that's recognised by Welsh Government. They've talked about increasing the qualifications within the workforce, and the quality. I just wonder how that sits within the £4.50, because there could be pressures in the opposite direction there, and some tension between wanting to up the qualifications and quality of workforce whilst keeping affordability in place.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: John, you're absolutely right, and two things on that: I visited one of the facilities in the Valleys the other day that was taking this forward—a very good independent sector-run childcare provision, with Welsh language and English language running alongside each other, and I asked the point about the integration, curiously, but what they were doing was—. Their standard of staff was an exemplar of what we'd want to see: not only very well-qualified childcare staff who were qualified within not simply the child-minding but the wider child development aspects—. So, it was hard to differentiate, in some ways, what was happening there from what would be happening in a child development educational surrounding, and including the nutritional stuff and all of that. Now, that is the model we need to see, and the £4.50 seems to work, at the moment, for that. It'll be interesting, as we discussed previously, as it goes forward—. We need to look at whether that works, going forward. But the quality, I think, is key, and that's why we're focused very much on registered inspected providers, as opposed to every Tom, Dick and Harriet.
John Griffiths AM: If we want to increase salary levels, though, which I think is a necessary part of this picture of improving quality, then obviously that might impact on the £4.50 rate.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, indeed, and we are cognisant—. It's interesting that we focus on whether the £4.50 is affordable, but the £4.50—you know, we're having an interesting discussion internally about how that £4.50 offer per hour sits alongside others, such as the foundation phase offer, and it's more generous. So, I think it's: how do we align, as time goes by, the child development aspects of the whole early years stuff? Now, we're doing some fascinating work that I think I've referred to on this committee before about aligning the early years development entirely. Now, this is an evolving piece of work, but I think the childcare offer should ultimately fit within that. How do you make sure that every offer that is Government-funded works on child development? It's not simply childcare.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. Right. The next questions are from Mark.
Mark Reckless AM: In terms of child development and not accentuating disadvantage, another area where this may apply is the kids who are born in the summer term, compared to those who are born in Michaelmas. There's a lot of evidence to suggest that they start with a disadvantage at school and often don't make that up, even as they go through school. What is the rationale for providing the older children with five terms of this, compared to three terms for the younger children who already have the relative disadvantage?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: I'm looking to my colleagues here and—
Jo-Anne Daniels: Well, the criteria for eligibility for the offer are the term after the child's third birthday, which is equivalent to the eligibility criteria for the foundation phase early education offer. Clearly, then, the number of terms that a child is able to, or parents are able to, access the childcare offer will be influenced by when the child is born, but I think you may be referring to a sort of parallel question, which is about whether—. There have been questions raised about whether children who are summer-born should, in fact, start school in the term after they turn four, or whether actually they should be allowed the flexibility to start school at a later age, which I know is something that has been tested in England, and there is some mixed evidence about school starting age and the birth month of children.
Mark Reckless AM: Well, they do have flexibility. You don't have to start your kids until the term following when they're five. That's the compulsory school—
Jo-Anne Daniels: Well, that's the legal position, but, obviously, in practice, most children will start school in the term after they're four.
Mark Reckless AM: So, given the disadvantage we know that the younger children born in the summer have, relative to the older ones, why accentuate that by giving the older kids five terms of this project, which you tell us will have such positive effects on their child development, but the summer kids only get three? Doesn't that make the situation worse?
Jo-Anne Daniels: I'm not 100 per cent sure I understand the question. So, children will stop being in receipt of the childcare offer once they become eligible for a full-time school place, and most children will become eligible for a full-time school place in the term after their fourth birthday.
Mark Reckless AM: But the older kids become eligible for this five terms before they start school, where the younger kids, who're already disadvantaged, become eligible for it only three terms before, accentuating the problem, surely. Could more thought be given to this issue?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We'll take that away. It's confused us a little bit, but we'll take that away. We might need to come back to you and—. Yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: If you could write to us about that, that would be helpful.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes.
Mark Reckless AM: Thank you. Minister, you got, or Welsh Government, really, got the Public Policy Institute for Wales to study this proposed policy and they concluded that it would have no substantial impacts on net income, poverty or work behaviour for families with children, and that the impact on work participation and work hours for mothers and families with a child of target age is extremely small. What do you say to that?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Well, Mark, I can only refer to what I said earlier. Our real-life evidence that is accumulating now is showing us examples of where people are making savings and increasing disposable income—as I mentioned earlier, up to £250 per week within some poorer households; so, real-life examples—but also where it's enabling them to make much better choices about when they work because there's more childcare offer available, or, alternatively, to work their childcare provision and their working hours around being able to spend more time with their children, which they currently can't do.
Lynne Neagle AM: And I don't want to go back over Llyr's questions.
Mark Reckless AM: I understand. That's not my focus. I just wondered about the quality of this PPIW piece of work. They said if you had a work requirement, as you do, it would cost £61 million a year on their numbers, substantially less than you're saying, and then they said it would cost £144 million without a work requirement. Now, that implies to me that 57 per cent of the parents wouldn't be working and would continue not working even if there is this available with a work requirement. I mean, are those numbers really credible from PPIW?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: It's not quite comparing like with like. Just to draw your attention, Mark, and the committee's attention to that the PPIW analysis was looking at a provision of 38 weeks. Ours is a 48-week option. And the fact that we are having parents already saying to us that their ability to actually extend that into the 48 weeks—beyond the term time and so on—carries advantages that are not picked up in that report.
Mark Reckless AM: And what is your early assessment of the income levels of families who are finding this offer most attractive?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: I think, from recollection, we're one term in, so we're one term into the assessment, and I mentioned earlier that the majority of parents are below the average income of £26,000 in Wales— it's around about 60 per cent of families are those. We're finding very few families are those who are on higher incomes. It's disproportionately towards those below the average income, and many of them amongst the most disadvantaged families are opting in to this offer where it is being offered. So, clearly, they're seeing the benefits of it.
Mark Reckless AM: And what consideration have you given to integrating this Welsh Government offer with the UK Government offer of tax-free childcare that's applicable across the UK?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Well, that offer, as you rightly say, is available across the UK and still is. The fact that it's more integrated within their scheme within England—the tax offer is more integrated—has caused them some problems in complexity and in the administration of this and the digital platforms that they've had. That offer is still available in Wales and it might well be that parents who opt in to that say, 'Well, we do want to buy additional hours beyond the 30 hours', but this 30 hours is there for every—
Mark Reckless AM: I wonder, Minister, whether what you're doing, in a very good way, to promote your project—people will see that as the childcare offer and, at least in my experience, very few parents are aware of the tax-free childcare on a UK basis.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: You're right—sorry. That's absolutely one of the lessons we've learnt from even this early stage of the early implementers, because there are elements of a childcare offer within the tax offer, within universal credit, within working tax credit. There are little bits of different ones and it does cause confusion. So, one of the lessons that we've learnt from the Talk Childcare communication strategy alongside this is the importance of communicating to parents and providers who the parents go to what is best for them to access, how they access it easily, and we'll learn more as these pilots roll by.
Mark Reckless AM: So, as you go into the Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs criteria—you have a £100,000 cap, as well as the £6,000 minimum wage cap, and you're getting HMRC to say whether people are eligible, which requires them to set up that account with HMRC—will you assure this committee that you will make sure that parents who are doing that are aware of the UK tax-free childcare offer, and that their providers also are? Because we've been looking, say, at the £7.50 extra per day, but, if someone's eligible for this offer, they should also be eligible for the UK tax-free childcare offer and have set up the account to do that. So, will you make sure that those parents know to pay their provider out of tax-free funds, rather than paying them the fully taxed amounts, which might otherwise happen?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, absolutely. And I think, if it's okay, Owain would like to add something as well.
Owain Lloyd: Yes, just to say, as I understand how things currently work with the English offer and TFC, when a parent applies, that automatically happens in terms of, on the one hand, they're given a 'yes' or 'no' in terms of their eligibility for the 30-hours offer in England, but they will also be told in terms of the parental account that's set up under TFC. So, that is integrated in the offer, and we'll be looking to do the same in terms of the Welsh offer. But, obviously, what we're not looking at doing in terms of the 30-hours offer is the setting up of the parental account to make the payment; the payment currently is very much between local government and the provider directly, rather than the TFC model, where the parent pays the provider.
Mark Reckless AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Okay. Well, we have come to—well, we've run over, actually. So, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank the Minister and the officials for attending? You are, of course, back with us on 16 May for Stage 1 of the Bill, so we will look forward to seeing you then. You will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy, as is usual practice. But thank you again, all of you.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Lovely. Thank you—diolch yn fawr.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, item 3 then is papers to note. As Members can see, there are 11 papers to note. So, if Members are content, I'd suggest that we note all of them in a block, if that's okay. Yes, okay. Thank you. Item 4, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay. Thank you. | |
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Project Manager: Then he can maybe find out to get his cord right .
Marketing: I have to draw .
Project Manager: So um {disfmarker} L Why don't you draw uh {vocalsound} your favourite animal on on th on the white-board .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: M my {disfmarker} my favourite animal . {vocalsound} Sorry this is all tangled up here .
Project Manager: Oh , I see uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's better .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . Yes . Mm . So draw it . We will try to guess what it is . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} I'm a very bad drawer .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Weird . Um . You're not gonna be able to guess from my drawing . I'm a bad drawer . Okay .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: They're ears , by the way .
User Interface: 's a cat .
Marketing: No . Um close though . Okay so {disfmarker} like a pet animal .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Like a cat .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: It's like a cat , so I guess it's a cat . {vocalsound}
Marketing: No , not a cat though .
Project Manager: What is this now ?
User Interface: Ah you forget about it .
Industrial Designer: You're on the knife .
User Interface: Yeah , uh I think it's fine . I just don't want to carry it off . Man , this wires , eh ? We need a wireless microphone .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You know ? Pro specially we should next project we should take l like that .
Marketing: Okay . So .
Project Manager: So ,
Marketing: It's not a cat ,
Project Manager: that's the cat .
Marketing: it's a dog .
Project Manager: Oh .
User Interface: So .
Industrial Designer: Mael .
Project Manager: It's a dog .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: So but that's also kind of cat ,
User Interface: Oh
Project Manager: isn't it ?
User Interface: the dog doesn't have a tail ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's got a tail then .
Project Manager: B bo both predators .
User Interface: Yeah , sure , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah yeah .
User Interface: I thought so . The dogs have a tail .
Marketing: So do cats .
Project Manager: So , thank you . Uh d did you uh work out cord ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And you guessed cats without a tail . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I think I will go without {disfmarker} without it ,
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: right ?
User Interface: It'll still not extend , right ? It's not up to that .
Marketing: Okay , there you go . So what favourite characteristics . Uh . Dogs are always friendly and loyal and fun . A horse ?
User Interface: It's a horse .
Marketing: {vocalsound} This is why you're the designer . And I'm marketing . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes . Yes , yes this is {disfmarker} Yes definitely a horse . Yes . Oh very good . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Ah {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I suppose it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Ah I think you can put that .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . That's it . {vocalsound} A blue and black zebra {vocalsound} .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes . Can {disfmarker} you can meet them in Africa , I think . Yes . Very good . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: The very rare blue zebras . Yes .
User Interface: {gap} I'll tell to get it off my {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ma Matthew ?
User Interface: Uh ? Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: You got a lot of room here .
Project Manager: Maybe {disfmarker}
Marketing: You can probably reach .
User Interface: Oh y it's not for that .
Marketing: No ?
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: I hope you have some space in your uh the horse of uh Mael .
User Interface: Okay . Yeah . So what should I draw ? Mm . He has already to do cat .
Marketing: I took a dog . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um . A mouse ?
Project Manager: This looks likes a cat who has been driven over . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And we should sum up its favourite charas characteristics , right ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes , the moustache .
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: That's {disfmarker} that's definitely a cat .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah . And i Th They like to sleep , that's why you said you they are like this .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's quite , you know {disfmarker} relaxed situation .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes , okay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} She has the small legs .
Project Manager: Th thank you , Matthew .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} Thank you , Matthew .
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's a very big rat . Or a very small cat . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Perfect . {vocalsound} Oh a rat , okay .
Project Manager: Yes , this is certain uh {disfmarker} some contribution to our project . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm 'kay .
Industrial Designer: And you , {gap}
Marketing: Your turn .
Project Manager: So . Let's see . Which animal has not been drawn yet . So you've all drawn land animals ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so why not draw an animal from the water .
Industrial Designer: A bird . Okay , in the water .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Ah I don't know what that is . It's a bit {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's a bit hard to guess . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Put it colours . Maybe it would help us .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: The cat is going to eat the fish or the rat ?
Industrial Designer: With different pen widths .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm.$
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh , it's a shark now .
Industrial Designer: Ah it's a shark , yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh , yes , why not ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Good idea .
User Interface: Ah it's a baby shark , it looks to me ,
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: you know it's going to eat the cat rather than the cat eating the fish , no ?
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Marketing: Now it's a swordfish .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Why not . A swordfish .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You have some in {disfmarker} in Australia , right ?
Marketing: Swordfish .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Um , maybe .
Industrial Designer: I dunno .
Marketing: I've never seen one , no .
Industrial Designer: Oh well . Yeah .
Project Manager: I hope it still works . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Perfect . So I dunno if we need to spend time on that , actually {vocalsound} But uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: You should go for the next one it seems to me .
Project Manager: W Well , this uh this tool seemed to work .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , exactly , yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Let's continue to uh {disfmarker} to the real stuff .
Industrial Designer: Wow .
Project Manager: Um our project uh finance uh thing . Uh when we are {disfmarker} and when w you are uh going to design w uh we must keep in mind that the selling price of the product uh will be about twenty five Euros , so when designing a project uh I also look at you uh Mael , keep in mind uh uh uh {disfmarker} People uh
User Interface: Twenty four .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: want to get the feeling this is a twenty five Euro project uh pr um product .
Industrial Designer: Per remote control ,
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: yeah ? Per project .
Project Manager: Yes . Okay . Um
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: more interesting for our company {vocalsound} of course , p uh profit aim , about fifty million Euro . So we have to sell uh quite a lot of this uh {vocalsound} um things . Uh we will try to uh to get at a international market uh so um it will be I think mainly Europe and uh Northern America ,
User Interface: Ah yeah , the sale man , four million .
Project Manager: maybe some uh Asian countries . Um also important for you all is um the the product uh production cost must be maximal uh twelve uh twelve Euro and fifty cents .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So it's half of the selling price , if I am good in mathematics .
Project Manager: Yes , of course . Uh um I mean we still have to uh to make a profit , huh ?
User Interface: They have to sell at least four million to make a profit {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Of course .
Marketing: Mm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You all have to be paid .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Excuse me ?
User Interface: Ah we have to make {disfmarker} we have to sell at least four million to make our own profit . Fifty mill
Industrial Designer: Oh you're g very good in mathematics .
Marketing: Yes . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes , indeed .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Four million .
Project Manager: So uh well I think w when we are working on the international market , uh in principle it has enough customers
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: uh so when we have a good product we uh we could uh meet this this aim , I think . So , that about finance . And uh now just let have some discussion about what is a good remote control and uh well keep in mind this this first point , it has to be original , it has to be trendy , it has to be user friendly . Um , maybe someone can mention some additional uh prerequisites for a good remote control .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Of course it should have a on off button . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yes , well i it should have the the the the expected functionality uh of a remote control .
Marketing: Mm . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , s and it depends what application you are using it for .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: You might need uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We wer we were thinking television . Uh .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: We are targ targeting the television set . So ,
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: you need to record the channels .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} You need to browse the {disfmarker} browse the channels in upward downward way ,
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Yes , yes . Th th that's very handy I {disfmarker} I always miss it and {disfmarker} on some remote controls that you can go channel up or down ins instead of retyping the number , especially when you have a lot of channels .
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm . Mm .
User Interface: Uh , and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And uh just before starting the detailed discussion , maybe we are the marketing guy ? Or {disfmarker}
Marketing: I'm marketing .
User Interface: Marketing .
Industrial Designer: th So you are the marketing .
Marketing: Yep .
Industrial Designer: And you are in the u use user interface uh design .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So just {disfmarker} yeah I wanted to to be sure .
User Interface: Sure .
Industrial Designer: And I I'm the the industrial designer
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: okay .
User Interface: Oh .
Industrial Designer: Because I I don't know you very well , actually , but yeah .
User Interface: I'm Matthew . You know . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay . Mael .
User Interface: Matth s uh
Industrial Designer: Happy to meet you .
Marketing: Anna .
User Interface: Anna .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay . It's very uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: A and I'm Nanne .
User Interface: And um uh Matthew , yeah .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: I thi think you know me ,
Industrial Designer: Uh so yeah uh {disfmarker} Just uh on your web page but uh yeah not uh {disfmarker} not face to face .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: yeah ? right yeah .
Project Manager: So . Um {disfmarker} S
User Interface: So .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So mm {disfmarker}
Project Manager: S s
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Are there some other very important things to to do {disfmarker} well ,
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So I
Project Manager: to specify in this first phase of of the project . So the browse function , as you m mentioned .
Marketing: Mm . Yeah . Oth yeah .
User Interface: And uh , you'd need the usual ones , like the changing the volume , changing the the channel and then {disfmarker} you uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes . Yeah .
User Interface: Today we have uh um teletext and all those things . Tomorrow you might have a some more functions which might come through that , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Like what ? Like internet on the on T_V_ ?
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah I_P_O_ or . Now we are looking for television things or I_P_ . For example personal video recorder and all those stuffs are coming up .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm . But we can't really design for something that hasn't been invented yet .
User Interface: Yeah . Ah it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's coming up , actually . The personal video recorder and all those things it is coming up .
Project Manager: Mm , well uh I I think {disfmarker} Uh w y you two should {disfmarker} should , I think , think this over uh w espec what , what functionality .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Actually , yeah
User Interface: Let's {disfmarker} Let's take {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: w {vocalsound} Of course , and first before um designing the func well thinking about the functionalities , we need to know what are the user requirements .
Marketing: Mm . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um then if they need internet , then we would be able to to p to propose something with uh uh T_V_ over I_P_ .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah . Mm . Yeah . But {disfmarker} Ninety percent of the time , ninety nine percent of the time , people will be using the main functions , the volume , the different channels , so we can have all the fancy things as well but the main controls need to be very obvious and very easy to use .
Project Manager: Mm mm mm . Keep k keep in mind i it's a {disfmarker} it's a twenty five Euro unit , so uh uh the the very fancy stuff uh w we can leave that out , I think .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: So twenty five Euro you expect a quite , well normal but good functioning user friendly remote control .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Oh in that case you can you always hook up with uh someone who is providing that and you know , {vocalsound} you {disfmarker} you sell their product as well as your product with them , you know . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm . So try and get T_V_ manufacturers to {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but w w we want to design a new one . {vocalsound} Mm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} No , it's okay , yeah I understand . So we need some numbering buttons , some teletext things
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: and then um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The {disfmarker} Yeah , the main is browsing . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yes , but but but ab about the spec the buttons , the buttons uh that will be on it . I I think we can discuss that in the in the next meeting .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh I would like to get this wrapped up and go to an end of this meeting .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay , we are alread mm . Mm .
Project Manager: So
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: you know now the basic {disfmarker} the basic things .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: well just {disfmarker} just for the next meeting , um
User Interface: L
Project Manager: well , uh , you wor yes , work on a design , keep it general , I mean {disfmarker} so w we will be still fle flexible with maybe adding some functions . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um you will be working on {disfmarker} on technical function design , so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , sure .
Project Manager: And uh you {disfmarker} and you and uh uh uh well , think about requirements ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: eh ? Does it need internet , or or do do we stay at basic basic television uh interface .
User Interface: Stam .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So , uh I think we should now all go work uh uh at this
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and uh you will be informed via email and other kind of communication .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: So next meeting will be in uh {disfmarker} in thirty minutes uh .
Industrial Designer: Perfect .
Project Manager: K keep it in mind . | |
doc_160 | Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Right well . Welcome to the {disfmarker} what should be the last of these meetings and uh it looks like we've uh done a good job here and uh we'll just go through the the final uh the final details . Um okay , oh the um th the the minutes of the last meeting uh I think we'll take those as read , um {disfmarker} Okay
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: the um th the the next uh thing we we we'll have a look at the uh th have a look at the prototypes and uh look at the uh evaluation criteria and finance and then uh uh just tidy up with production and um and then we can close . Um So f if if you'd like to uh present your your proposals .
Industrial Designer: Uh okay we basically have the same kinda lay-out here it's just um you hold it like this and it gets kinda moulded to the to the shape of your hand , basically . Um on the left we've got the scroll for the volume , on the right we have buttons for the channels up and down and that kinda {disfmarker} so you can hold it and scroll , or you can hold it and and push .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh this is the power key , um it's kinda like the biggest so you know how to turn on .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: Uh that's the little menu key . This is the infra-red section so you g it'll be sending rays and if you're you know pointing it like that it can send it ,
Project Manager: Yep ,
Industrial Designer: or if you hold it up like that it'll send it .
Project Manager: yeah , good , good .
Industrial Designer: Uh we got a microphone there which for all the voice commands
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: so you can you know talk to it like that
Project Manager: Yep ,
Industrial Designer: and it'll still understand .
Project Manager: right .
Industrial Designer: Um the logo is down down there um
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: and {gap} has the cover on it
User Interface: S
Industrial Designer: and you can see like it just kinda goes {disfmarker} the red bit's the cover and it kinda goes over everything
Project Manager: Yep , yep ,
Industrial Designer: and then there's holes for the buttons to come through . Um .
Project Manager: mm-hmm .
User Interface: And so we figured it would be kind of you know a light weight plastic ,
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: just kind of a light {vocalsound} non-descript grey
Project Manager: Yep yep .
User Interface: so that people'll wanna buy the covers
Project Manager: Yep .
User Interface: and then the covers will be that sort of rubbery material like they make iPod covers ,
Project Manager: {gap} showing me age ,
User Interface: so they kinda just stretch over .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: I don't know what i c iPod covers are like .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , well
Project Manager: Yeah {gap} yeah .
User Interface: I I didn't know that but yeah they're kind of {disfmarker} it's just kind of a rubbery {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: and that way {disfmarker} you know
Project Manager: Okay ,
User Interface: spongy like is something that people wanted
Project Manager: yep , right .
User Interface: and it just sort of stretches over
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and that way I think probably helps protect it a little bit too as well
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: But it's also e e easier to put on versus like mobile covers
User Interface: and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: you actually have to screw them on and stuff and you kinda sometimes have to get someone to do that for you . This is very much you should be able to stretch it over yourself
Project Manager: Yep .
User Interface: just kinda stretch it over
Industrial Designer: and it'll be fine .
Project Manager: Okay , good yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: and it'll just stay on
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: and then the buttons come through and so {disfmarker} and then the {disfmarker} each one of 'em on the very end will have the logo with the yellow circle and the R_R_ .
Project Manager: Yep , right .
Industrial Designer: Li that'll be {gap} the covers as well , yeah yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I mean tha it's it's a detailed point , I just wondered {disfmarker} I mean h how will people put these down I wonder ?
User Interface: Like that .
Project Manager: Right . Okay {gap} for some strange re reason I had it in my mind that they'd put them down vertically
Industrial Designer: Yeah it could stand , yeah .
Project Manager: but uh uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh .
Industrial Designer: Well we could broaden the {disfmarker} broaden it out a bit
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , uh no
Industrial Designer: so it would stand like that .
Project Manager: because {gap} particularly if they've dif if they're gonna have it as a you know as a fashion item
Industrial Designer: Yeah , {gap} standing .
Project Manager: uh I mean it it's uh it it's just I mean it's just a minor detailed point , but um as you say you can just make the base a little bit bigger and uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , we could just widen it out uh
Project Manager: Yeah and uh it just needs another uh another logo somewhere is is is is all it gives gives people the option and if if say if they've got them um {gap}
Industrial Designer: Mm . Mm .
Project Manager: because {gap} actually have several {gap} upon the uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Could have one for your stereo , one for your {gap} D_V_ player .
Industrial Designer: Mm , yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , well .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Have to {disfmarker} if we just lengthen it I guess
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah
Industrial Designer: so it comes down to the base of the hand
User Interface: Yeah ,
Project Manager: but that that's uh {disfmarker} but uh
User Interface: just kind of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and then flatten it out
Project Manager: no
Industrial Designer: and could sit there .
Project Manager: the the the overall uh the overall concept is uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , {vocalsound} mm .
User Interface: Or just make it little .
Project Manager: yeah yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Somewhere like that
Project Manager: no no , I mean that's {disfmarker} these uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: so it just sort of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We might {gap} have to lengthen it
Marketing: Yeah I kinda had a a kinda {disfmarker} a natural kind of a idea
Industrial Designer: so it kinda {disfmarker} your hand still holds it and have it there ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah , yeah , yeah like that , like that {gap} . Yeah .
Marketing: where it's like more of a kind of {disfmarker} like a kinda maybe slightly like thinner ,
User Interface: Bu
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: yeah , kinda like that kinda {gap} like a flower or a plant
Project Manager: But uh yeah {disfmarker} but no th but the {disfmarker} yeah the the the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: for the more natural kinda {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap} .
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah , yeah ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} The final product would actually stand up , yeah {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: I mean it it's uh {disfmarker} wouldn't
User Interface: {gap} fall over .
Project Manager: wouldn't do that , indeed yeah . But th th but th yeah th b the
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: these were all minor minor uh minor details ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I think the uh the basic concept i i is is absolutely bang on
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: {gap} . 'S a little longer .
Project Manager: and the {disfmarker} i
Industrial Designer: Wee {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: it certainly meets our criteria of being uh {disfmarker} of you know looking different .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Um , so
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: good that's that that's excellent .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um right let us um What's on the next one ? Oh right yes , let's have a look at the um f finance . Um , now we're given a a clear design brief , uh if I {gap} get the uh spreadsheet up . Oh .
Marketing: Uh yeah , {vocalsound} just click there .
Project Manager: {gap} .
Marketing: Uh the the maximise button .
Project Manager: Oh right . Ah . Good , this is why we need to make these things simple so that the uh the the the boss can understand .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Now I've um {vocalsound} this is the company's uh uh costing for for various uh uh aspects of design and I I I've treated some of these slightly uh liberally given the constraints placed on us , um I wouldn't know for in for instance if if they require us to have it in the corporate colours , then that is not a special colour , that's a that's a standard colour . Uh , so we're just simply on batteries , the the one th the one decision I've had to make is that um we're {vocalsound} we will have to find a s a regular standard chip to to do this with and I I um I'm I'm I'm certain that they they are around so , um that I don't think is a a serious problem . The uh the the voice sensor is is expensive but we we made a a basic decision that that was absolutely fundamental to the to the design so that that has to stay . Um then again the the the the shape of the case means that it's it's expensive to uh um l to make 'cause of the the th the double curves but on the other hand because of our overall fashion concept um we we should exceed the the sales targets . Um it's simply made of plastic so th that's uh that's no problem and uh um just because the whole {gap} the colour of the the whole thing that's uh uh there's some cost there . Um and uh we haven't actually got a scroll wheel we we we got push buttons and and a simple uh um {vocalsound} slider so um and the and the the buttons are uh uh well I do don't know that they're special colour . Anyway the the costings uh come in at {disfmarker} exactly on target at twelve point five uh but I thi I think we have a a very strong case to argue that uh what what we've got is is so in innovative and uh and different that um {vocalsound} any any slight compromise we have to make on on cost is is offset by the uh you know the uh you know the the the the concept of it being a a fashion accessory and and having the the interchangeable covers
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: so uh um you know the {disfmarker} if if if the management expect us to be techno {gap} again {gap} fail again {disfmarker} technologically innovative um that they they have to accept that we we can't operate absolutely within uh the constraints that they give ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: so uh we we we present this as the uh the company's uh the the company's way forward and uh uh I I think we can argue that we we have uh come in on on budget . Um . Okay , uh . So um . Does anybody want to uh {disfmarker} uh Andrew do you want {disfmarker} what do you want to say about um the uh yeah the evaluation
Marketing: Evaluation .
Project Manager: where where you know well where where we're where where we're at ?
Marketing: The {vocalsound} the product or the project ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The the the well the {disfmarker} I meant the product .
Marketing: Um , well well my presentation just now ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Sure , uh can I get the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh sorry yeah um , mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm . More loud clicks in the microphone .
Marketing: Cheers . {vocalsound} There we go , oh . Method of evaluation {vocalsound} testing the product was to just {gap} if it met all the criteria {disfmarker} all the conditions that we set out to set out to solve , from the point of view of the the consumer and the management . So what I've been asked to do is , on the whiteboard
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: um gauge our team response to these questions . So , on a scale of one to seven , one being true and seven being being false .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Seven being a nice round number to work to .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . And then at the end just take an average
Project Manager: Tr On for true and seven for flase . Yes .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yes {vocalsound} .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So uh . {vocalsound} So , look at these questions . Is the device f flashy and fashionable ?
Project Manager: Well I think most definitely .
Industrial Designer: Yeah I'd say definitely a one yeah .
User Interface: I think it is yeah .
Marketing: So uh {disfmarker} and also uh technologically innovative ?
Project Manager: Yes the voice technology indeed .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , defi yeah , yeah
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Easy to use ?
Project Manager: I don't see we could've made it any easier .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh suitable for the consumer ? That was um {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Totally .
Industrial Designer: Yeah definitely .
User Interface: Yeah I think it made {disfmarker} we met all of the consumer
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: wants .
Marketing: Uh is it complicated ?
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: No .
Marketing: Doing pretty well so far aren't we ? {vocalsound} Uh functional ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah definitely .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Um . {vocalsound} Where are we ?
Project Manager: {gap} found easily . {gap} yeah
Marketing: We've b built in the the speech , where are you , function .
Project Manager: I mean that's that's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Does it take long to learn to use ? Shouldn't .
Industrial Designer: No , not at all .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . And uh , what else ? {vocalsound} The R_S_I_ compares to the current standards ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Less buttons so it must be .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: well . We we
Industrial Designer: Yeah
Marketing: uh yeah it was our {disfmarker} it was a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap} it is sorta the the handle more ergonomically correct as well .
Marketing: we made an actual effort to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap} yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So yeah , um um .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um will device appeal to all age groups ?
Project Manager: I think it will because I mean uh old older people who can't manage the buttons anyway will actually probably like the like like the voice bit so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: I think so .
Marketing: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: uh that's a good call , yeah . Well we had the we had the data {gap} saying that old people will be less likely to pay extra money but the funct the increased functionality , {vocalsound} the e ease of use of the device might make up for that .
Project Manager: And it's it's it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: well I don't think we're actually charging a particular premium anyway , in the end , so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I I I think it will tend to appeal more to younger aged groups
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: just 'cause we have gone with the fashion focus
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and the younger people tend to {disfmarker} would be more conscious of that aspect of it , but um I think it should still appeal on a certain level to everybody , yeah .
Project Manager: It will appeal f for dif for different reasons but it's it's uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah I think just the simplicity of it
Project Manager: yeah yeah
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: and
Project Manager: so I I {disfmarker} yeah I {disfmarker}
User Interface: not having to learn to programme
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: and not having you know a million buttons .
Project Manager: Yeah , so I think we can reasonably say it's another another one ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: why not ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh can you just click the my mouse to move onto next page ? Uh , yeah and what h did we make the management's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} in in in in my interpretation of management's instructions uh is that yes it it meets the requirement
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: is t it's television only ,
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: it's it's simple to use ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: um it's it's it's within budget ,
User Interface: Under the cost .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Yep .
Project Manager: um I {disfmarker} it's uh {disfmarker} yes an an any minor points we we we argue .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um .
Project Manager: So uh I I think we've done an amazing job
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: in uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well done us {vocalsound} .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} coming up with what {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So uh one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven . Eleven divided by {vocalsound} eleven's one so {vocalsound} equals average of one .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {gap} Need a need a calculator for that .
Marketing: And that roughly concludes my evaluation of the of the product .
Project Manager: Okay ,
Industrial Designer: Excellent .
Project Manager: {gap} nick the cable back then .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh no
User Interface: I mixed up the colours a little bit .
Industrial Designer: that's {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I think I {gap} all wrong .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Ooh . Right do um either of you want to uh say anything ?
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Before I uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Ps I don't think so ,
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
User Interface: I mean I think we worked well together
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: and looked really at what the consumers wanted and what we were trying to make
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: and you know , seemed to discuss things pretty well
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and come to group consensus and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well that's right , I mean th this this slide here I mean the satisfaction with uh room for creativity , I mean
Industrial Designer: Mm . Yeah , definitely .
Project Manager: I think we've allowed ourselves uh as much creativity as the uh the the the product uh allows .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um I won't comment on leadership , uh teamwork I think we've uh {disfmarker} I think everybody's uh worked pretty well together .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um we've just about coped with the whiteboard and digital pens , uh I think the results speak for itself
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: and new ideas found , um , again gi no given relatively everyday product , I think we've v very uh very effectively come up with a a new uh
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: uh a new approach . Um are the costs within budget ? Yes . Is the project evaluated ? We're we're all happy that it it meets all the criteria , um
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: Thank you very much indeed , I think that {disfmarker} I think that's uh {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Cool , thank you {vocalsound} ,
User Interface: Alright .
Project Manager: I think we can go f for an early bath .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So I call the meeting closed .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Not sure how far ahead of schedule we were there . | |
doc_161 | Project Manager: Okay everybody is ready ? {vocalsound} Good morning again . So , today we are going to have a f second meeting . Oh Michael , hi .
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: You're late . You have a good reason for that ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Very good {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Okay , let's have a look to the agenda today . {vocalsound} So , we are going to have a meeting about the functional design . Um so first before starting I w just going to uh to go quickly to {disfmarker} through the minutes of previous meeting . So uh {vocalsound} basically we we are not decided if w we should go for a universal or specific uh uh remote control , but I have new um new i inputs for {disfmarker} about that topics . I goin I'm going to share with you . {vocalsound} And uh basically we decided to um to uh go to individual actions for each of you uh so um Industrial Designer should wor was supposed to work on th on th on the working design . You showed us {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: you ar you you prepare something for us ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yep .
Project Manager: The U_I_ guy also uh work on that , yeah , and for the mar our Marketing Expert should deliver some specs .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Alright {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} so we are going to go through three of your individual presentations . But first I would like quickly to uh to decide of {disfmarker} to give a name to the project . So , I just put d quickly Remo , but if you have any o other names that we co could decide for just to to keep something fun for our project we we should {disfmarker} we could discuss quickly . Any ideas ?
User Interface: Uh the Powerstick .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Powerstick , yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What else ? What else ?
Marketing: Uh . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Maybe a Spanish name would work well .
Marketing: Mm I was thinking of the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Especially if we're selling into the U_S_ market becasue there's a lot of Spanish speakers there . Maybe something that sounds cool in English but sounds funny in Spanish .
Marketing: Mando .
User Interface: Mando .
Project Manager: Mango ? Mango ?
User Interface: What is that ?
Marketing: Mando .
Project Manager: Mando . M_A_ ? M_A_ ?
Marketing: A*_N_ yeah D_O .
Project Manager: M_ D_O_ . Mm , okay .
Marketing: It doesn't it doesn't sound cool for me ,
Project Manager: What does it mean ? Oh .
Marketing: but maybe for a Spanish {disfmarker} for I {disfmarker} for {disfmarker}
User Interface: What does it mean in Spanish ?
Marketing: Control .
User Interface: Control .
Project Manager: Hmm . Nice .
User Interface: Okay . 'Cause it also {disfmarker} like in English it sounds like you know the man's tool you know because you know men like to have control of the remote
Marketing: But {disfmarker} mm , yeah .
User Interface: so it might {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mando sounds Latino . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: The Mando .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So , let's go for Mando ? Yeah ? No objection ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah that's {gap} .
Project Manager: Great . So {disfmarker}
User Interface: And we could have some like you d you could have the fonts you know special , so you have man in like in in uh in one o in one font and then the O_ as like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , I think this is {disfmarker}
User Interface: Although you don't wanna cut uh cut women out of the uh potential buyers though ,
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: do you ? So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah they are the most T_V_ watcher . So we should be careful .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , I think this is more a question of of {disfmarker}
User Interface: Marketing .
Marketing: But {disfmarker} yeah
Project Manager: I I think this is more a question of of look and feel .
Marketing: it uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Something that should be addressed later We should we should go to other {disfmarker} for the other topics .
Marketing: Yeah because if the product will be international {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well that's the thing . We need to know who we're selling it to before we can really decide on a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah okay , so let's stick f to Man Mando for the name
User Interface: Um .
Project Manager: and we'll see for the for the look and feel later . So let's go for the three presentations right now . So , who want to start ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So maybe we could start with the market , yeah .
Marketing: Maybe maybe I should uh start . Yeah . Mm . Okay .
Project Manager: Okay so I have your slides somewhere ?
Marketing: Yeah . Should be in participant four .
Project Manager: Participant four . {vocalsound} This one ?
Marketing: Yeah , yeah . {vocalsound} Uh .
Project Manager: S that's coming . Uh {gap}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: okay . Great .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: Okay so yeah I will I will give a brief outline about what I what I prepared for this meeting .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: For the functional requirements and especially for the for the user requirements . I prepare a marketing report and we have to find the weaknesses and and the the improvements we could do to the current remote controls . And also I di I did a study with {disfmarker} for the incorporation of new technologies it seems that the remote controls have been {disfmarker} have remained the same for the last five , ten years . There is no no significant difference between the the b the first new controls and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . Sh next slide ?
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Well {vocalsound} {vocalsound} more {disfmarker} most of the people think that remote controls are ugly , thoroughly . So and they they admit that the the they should uh s they would uh spend more money in a fancier remote control , which is which is good and it's interesting point . Also the people are worried about about the R*_S_I_ disease , which is if you repeat the sa the same movement , which is not a {disfmarker} with a not very appropriate device , you you will have problems whe when you will get old . So s people are uh are worried about the the shape of the of the remote control . They are also {vocalsound} {disfmarker} they get angry very often because they lost the remote control very often , so I think it would be a good point to to l to to find a a solution to {disfmarker} any beep any alarm or something incorporated to {disfmarker} with the remote control every time it it get lost .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: And also I found that young people {disfmarker} the the younger people are the more interested they are in incorporating new technologies in the in the remote control .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So {vocalsound} {vocalsound} in my opinion the Mando {disfmarker} this Mando shouldn't be very small because the smaller it is , the more like {disfmarker} the the liklier it is to get lost . Liklier or more likely ?
User Interface: More likely . {gap}
Marketing: {gap} likely . Okay . Uh {vocalsound} people also complain because they they they all have the same size of the buttons for buttons who w which are not very use like f uh memorising channels or or this kind of actions which are not very often but {vocalsound} they they shouldn't they shouldn't have the same importance in the in the uh in the remote cont in the remote control . Also the z the design should fit the hand shape . So it may be interesting to to think in a {disfmarker} in both prototypes , for right and left handed people .
User Interface: Well th the on the thing is though , most remote controls are used by more than one person . So unless you're kind of targeting single people you know you're gonna maybe
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: cut out some {disfmarker} a lot of your market .
Marketing: I dunno I th Anyway I think it could be int interesting to to release some {disfmarker} a a small fraction of of this remote controls .
Industrial Designer: Well maybe it could be a universal design .
Marketing: Sorry ?
Industrial Designer: A universal design , which is which is good for both the hands .
User Interface: Still shaped for yeah for your hand but not for a particular hand , right ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ? That's right , whether it's left hand or right hand ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but but {vocalsound} don't you think that the two points are clashing , one thing you are saying design should fit the hand shape and it should not be very small ?
Marketing: Sorry ?
Industrial Designer: The first and the third point , they are clashing .
User Interface: Well it can still be a {gap} , you can still extend past the hand .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Uh .
Marketing: Like uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So fitting the hand doesn't mean much then .
User Interface: Well it means {disfmarker} like , this remote here is kind of {disfmarker} is very thin and long so instead of having {disfmarker} you know you might have it kind of {disfmarker} a bit bigger
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah , like {disfmarker}
User Interface: or , you know , with maybe some some finger molds or something .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So it means design should be similar to the traditional ones ?
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Little sleek , longer ?
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: And it should fit the hand .
Marketing: No no I was thinking of so like something {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Something with the shape of the palm ?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm .
Marketing: yeah .
User Interface: Some finger grips maybe .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: You could even have some buttons like you know on the sides and everything ,
Project Manager: On the sides .
Marketing: Yeah yeah . It sh it shouldn't it shouldn't be symmetric symmetrical .
User Interface: but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hm mm-hmm mm-hmm .
Marketing: Not anymore . That's what {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: And then finally {disfmarker}
Marketing: And finally , the incorporation of a L_C_D_ or a speech recognition system in the remote control could also be interesting , but I don't know if the budget would be large enough .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . First I'm just wondering about the L_C_D_ stuff because uh because {disfmarker}
Marketing: But most of {disfmarker} yeah most of the young people to thirty to thirty years old were really interested in this kind of technology .
Project Manager: Yeah , so maybe it's a good time for me to uh {vocalsound} to bring you to some new uh new informations . We had the new requirements from the {disfmarker} so uh from the head offices of the company , and so they wanted {disfmarker} so they want to um {disfmarker} they would like to be restricted to T_V_ .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , I dunno if you had this information already . No ,
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: so they want us to restrict the remote control to T_V_ only because of time limitations . Um they want also uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Actually this marketing report is restricted to T_V_ remote controls .
Project Manager: Excellent . So we have also to focus more on the internet aspects because well well te teletext is outdated now and uh finally , {vocalsound} it should be clear that the corporate image , that means colours and logos of the co our company should be clearly inde identified in the product . So {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I was still uh I was still working on this uh twenty five Euro price point because I think actually having looked at some of the remotes out there , this is quite a low uh price if if we're {disfmarker} maybe I can get to this in my presentation though ,
Project Manager: Yeah yeah . Sure sure .
User Interface: but um yeah .
Project Manager: So maybe we can jump to your presentations , right now .
User Interface: Yep . Okay .
Project Manager: Okay so let's keep in mind about tha that that {disfmarker} this last point about L_C_D_ and speech uh reco
User Interface: Yeah . I think even even if it was within budget do a speech reco rec system it might be a bit difficult because if you think {disfmarker} if you're watching T_V_ you're gonna have a lot of this uh background noise from the T_V_ which might interfere with the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sorry , what is your {gap} ?
User Interface: Uh participant three . You might have some background noise from the T_V_ which will make the speech recognition much uh harder , so .
Marketing: Yeah but you should be able to activate or disactivate , so {disfmarker} yeah yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh you press a press a button to talk , and the the T_V_ the T_V_ {vocalsound} sound turns off . {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah uh channel fifty .
Industrial Designer: No it could be command control kind of thing .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It requir recognises particular sequence and then it gets activated . Means you say {disfmarker} you should say like does that , remote control being on or be on kind of thing , and then remote control comes in the picture for the speech recognition .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Because this kind of thing means speech is there from the T_V_ also .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So there should be something command controlled , you start and then you stop .
User Interface: Mm . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It's like V_I_ editor , you are having two modes similarly .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Otherwise it's just lying idle .
Project Manager: Okay Michael .
User Interface: Okay , so , could I describe the mouse maybe {gap} be easier to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Sorry ?
User Interface: could I use the mouse , or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um yeah .
User Interface: Mm . Thanks . Okay .
Project Manager: The wheel doesn't work .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Great {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay so um while uh researching this this topic I first of all just thought of a couple of things that I would like to see in a remote , and just uh looked to see if they're actually available in any current remotes , and then also searched for which are the top-rated uh remote controls on Epinions dot com , which is a a you know a a customer um written basically review site . So um there's a pretty wide range of uh remote controls these days and and uh this remote control on the right here is is one of the more extravagant , but it's not really {disfmarker} it's by no means uh mm you know {vocalsound} on it's own in being so expensive . There are a lot of expensive remote controls out there .
Project Manager: {gap} Looks like a P_D_A_ {gap} ?
User Interface: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah it doe it's {disfmarker} well basically all the functions uh are controlled through through the L_C_D_ screen except for the really really kind of main functions , which have a couple of of their own buttons . Um and if you look at a lot of the universal remotes out um on the market , I know we're working on television remote , but a lot of the universal remotes out there have uh have these L_C_D_ screens which kind of helps when you're using multiple uh devices I suppose because you can have multiple kind of functions {disfmarker} d different functions on the screen at different times . But um the thing that I find most interesting about this remote control , and it's kind of difficult to uh to see in the slide , but it has a scroll wheel on it , which is kind of like uh a mouse scroll wheel , which I think is {disfmarker} it's a really kind of important design aspect um is {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} 'Cause the thing is what a {vocalsound} what we {disfmarker} the presen this presentation we had is what we want the remote control to actually do . And obviously the the simplest thing that a remote control does is it just change the change the channel .
Industrial Designer: Change the channels .
User Interface: Now um
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: uh the {disfmarker} I think that a scroll wheel is actually pretty a pretty handy way of of changing the channel . 'Cause I know when I um when I use the remote to change the channel I very rarely use the numbers on the on the pad . I usually use the up and down
Industrial Designer: Mmm-hmm mm-hmm . Yeah yeah .
User Interface: because most channels are you know two digit numbers and you have to press you know a special button to enter a two-digit number , and then two numbers , so that's just uh {disfmarker} it's annoying . So I think a scroll wheel is is quite handy . Now um the the scroll wheel is is much more useful if you have an L_C_D_ screen , and this brings us to the the point you were mentioning before about the internet uh capability .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: One possibility , if we {disfmarker} now we need to still talk about the price point because obviously a lot of this stuff can't be done for twenty five Eu uh Euro , but one possibility is to download program information into the L_C_D_ screen so that instead of actually saying I want to I want to go to channel thirty seven because I know this programme's on , you know , often you don't know what ch what channel it's on , or you don't know what's on . If you have a list of of programs on your L_C_D_ screen you just scroll to that program rather than to a channel . So if you think about {disfmarker} it's kind of like a {disfmarker} you know in mobile phones now you don't use {disfmarker} you don't remember people's phone number , you remember their name and you go find that name and ring it .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So this would be pretty {disfmarker} kind of a handy thing to have , but um we we really need t to discuss the price . So , I mean there are {vocalsound} there are uh cheaper {disfmarker} this is another multi kinda purpose remote control where it's it's it's very simple , there's only a few buttons , but al each of those buttons does something different in a different context . So this is something else we might wanna consider , is really kind of limiting the number of buttons , because this is the top rating uh universal remote control on on Epinions . It it's really uh maybe worth thinking about limiting the number of buttons as much as as possible um because really I think people want to be able to find the button they're looking for without even looking at the remote control . And {gap} was saying before about having different size buttons for different you know frequently used uh tasks , but I think also you know the location and and shape of the buttons is important , but also the number of buttons . So if you have too many buttons it it it increases the the difficulty of finding the one you want .
Industrial Designer: But there is one problem {gap} then the user has to understand each of that functionality .
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah well we w
Industrial Designer: Because the same button is doing too many things .
User Interface: Yeah well we will have a bit of a simpler uh task in that we're only doing uh a television remote control . Um I think maybe one option is to have you know a little flip-open um door that uh that you have hidden most of the time , but contains the extra buttons like , say , the number buttons for instance . Um
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I I would {disfmarker} if I had my perfect remote control , I'd probably just have no numbers at all on it because they're just in the way .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: They don't really do anything . Maybe you know I {disfmarker} although I do also find flip-open doors a bit of a pain because sometimes they can break off or or whatever , but maybe a door that you can you can permanantly remove or permanantly have on would be good .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Um {vocalsound} but I think definitely you need to to keep the buttons down to a minimum , but not not let that kind of interfere with the functionality of of the device . Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: H I think I think that the tr the transition to this to this new remote control shouldn't be very very abrupt very hard because w if people see a remo see the {disfmarker} see a remote control without numbers mm they will think it's very difficult to learn very difficult to {disfmarker} very different build {disfmarker} very different to the traditional {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It does sampling out of the {gap} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well I guess that depends on how you market it . If you {vocalsound} if you have the right advertisement showing how how how easy it is and how you can , you know , navigate to a program without the numbers , then people might say that looks pretty easy .
Marketing: If y
Project Manager: Okay , can you continue , please Mi ?
User Interface: So , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: yep . Um okay , so , I think um one of the really kind of useful things you can do with with internet connectivity would be to have this {disfmarker} a programme driven interface rather than the channel number . So if we can have a higher priced uh remote control I think that would really be worth uh {disfmarker} something that would be worth implementing . Um mm there's the L_C_D_ screen , um which maybe maybe is too expensive , um but I think also at the scroll wheel , I haven't mentioned it here , the scroll wheel could be used without an L_C_D_ screen , just for changing channel numbers easily . I think even that ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I mean , that would be a fairly cheap thing , compared to an L_C_D_ screen , to implement ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: um but I think that would be quite useful as well . And the other thing , you say we need to we need to keep it just television , but I think one {disfmarker} maybe one option , since this is supposed to be a kind of a fashionable device , is you know there's a certain kind of cool or wow factor that you can kind of {disfmarker} you can have with technology , and maybe we wanna make it something that's {vocalsound} extensible to do other tasks . Say you have like um {vocalsound} a little another little kind of base unit that can also receive signals as well as the television where you can , say uh , change the lighting in the room . You know that would be something maybe you could sell as an extra , so that it doesn't have to be part of the initial development , but , you know , later on you could you can you know you {disfmarker} also , selling the potential of the device . Then you say potentially you can then do other cool stuff like change the lights , I dunno , close the windows , whatever , turn the heating on , and um , I think that's something we may need to have as as {disfmarker} at least as an optional extra to to kinda make our product cool , since we say we're putting the fashion in electronics .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} Okay . Okay , thanks . {vocalsound} {gap} you want to go ?
Industrial Designer: Yep . So {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: So most of the things which we are discussing about is speech recognition uh , that means on my own I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: This one ?
Industrial Designer: yeah , it should be .
Project Manager: Great . No , not that one . {gap} you are two .
Industrial Designer: Two .
Project Manager: Alright . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay so the working design is uh user i interface could be of two types , one is the usual press buttons which are there so that the user feels that he is knoing {disfmarker} doing some he is knowing about that technology . So he is pretty comfortable if he wants to get this , and on top of that there there could be a speech recognition technology also being {disfmarker} sitting on the on the remote . So the old kind of users who don't want to have any changes , it can it can be useful for them , and the new users , as uh our Marketing Expert was saying , they can use the new gizmo which is speech recognition kind of thing .
Project Manager: Okay , sorry to interrupt you , but we have seen before that there is a new way of interacting that use wheel .
Industrial Designer: That's right . So anyway , that didn't come into my mind ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: so th that is a possibility . These could be other kind of interfaces .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Means we can have , depending on the cost , how much we can afford , we can have different kind of interfaces . So spe buttons are something which is very {disfmarker} everybody is familiar with . So if you go to the market and you say that buttons are there the people know what it is ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and on top of that if we are having extra functionality people are willing to shell that twenty-five Euros money which we are thinking . Otherwise we are just like others in the market . So anyway that is the first , user interface could be of more than one type , and uh yeah that means we can do the on-line changes which which cannot be done now actually . So apart from the speech , we can have the scroll kind of thing with the buttons . Now for buttons , normal requirements like bit coding and all those things are required . And for voice , limited vocabulary automatic speech recognition system is required and we require a microphone also to be sitting there on the remote .
Project Manager: Yeah . That increases the the cost also .
Industrial Designer: Uh that's right . But uh means we have to see how much {disfmarker} what kind of microphones and stuff like that .
Project Manager: Do you think that performance of such systems are enough to to target well {disfmarker} of such technologies is enough ?
Industrial Designer: Uh yes , if it is limited vocabulary usually it's enough .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah we we can uh target , means we can target ninety five percent accuracy or somewhere ninety seven perc
Project Manager: Well wh uh I imagine also that the microphone will be an ambiance um a um an ambience microphones
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: because you are not going to speak into into th into the remote control .
Industrial Designer: That's right . No it it could be little d yeah it could be {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So it could be s a few centimetres .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well one one other thing that that speech recognition could really blow out the price for is uh when you want to sell into other markets , though ,
Industrial Designer: That's right . That's right .
User Interface: because , I'm not sure exactly where we're gonna sell this , but I presume it's not gonna just be English speaking countries .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: So then you have to s you know , you have to train models for {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm mm-hmm . Uh it's more like , means there are different speech technologies which are existing so D_T_W_ could be kind of which is the easiest . So you have to store some templates on the on the on the chip itself , and {vocalsound} it's just dynamic time warping where you try to find out what it is , instead of having a model which has to be trained and being a micro-controller .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . Okay we shou we should discuss this la later after after after this this uh slide .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's right . Yeah .
Project Manager: This is a this is a this is a a very important uh issue in discussion .
Industrial Designer: So we can That's right . Yep .
Project Manager: Okay , next . Uh that finished ?
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: No ?
Industrial Designer: No no . Components .
Project Manager: Components ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . So , will you go to the next slide ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes sure .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah so this is the design which we are thinking so . We are having a power button and the switch {vocalsound} , which is not much ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and then we are having the {gap} which is to indicate whether the power is on or not . And then there are two kind of things which can be {disfmarker} so one is the button interface which has not been shown because because of lack of time {vocalsound} .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So we could not put that . So now where the A_S_R_ decoder is sitting , similarly there are different kind of interfaces which could be there . So there is A_S_R_ decoder which could be there , and then there could be another scroll button scroll scroller , and then there could be buttons , and all of them they will just do the decoding and put it in the math put it in the proper message format . And then there is there is the chip which is sitting , the green one , and it converts it into bit codes , and that bit codes are sent by the infrared device to the receiver .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So this is the easiest design the there could be . So th an A_S_R_ decoder we can have things in {gap} . To have different technologies . So this was the {disfmarker} my personal preference was that we can have A_S_R_ sitting there on the remote control .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You know I guess you could actually train the remote control as you're using it by saying you know {vocalsound} turn volume up , and you press the uh press the button
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: like uh s people teach sign language to kids f well , by speaking and doing {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah but uh as soon as you try to put the microchip kind of thing or something the price will go up .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So these are the slight problems .
Project Manager: So your your opinion is that we should go for special condition technologies ?
Industrial Designer: Because {disfmarker} yeah the reason is that if we go into the market means {disfmarker} though I don't have much idea , but as he {disfmarker} the uh Marketing Expert presentation was {disfmarker}
Marketing: I'm sure if you can sell a a speech recognition remote control for twenty five Euros everyo {vocalsound} everyone will s will buy it .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Actually I'm not so sure
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So if we go with just the {disfmarker}
User Interface: because I'm the {disfmarker}
Marketing: I'm sure .
User Interface: you know if I was using a remote control to , say , turn the volume up because I can't hear it very well , I don't really want to you know drown out what people are saying by talking you know when I'm when I'm {disfmarker} instead of pressing up on on a remote control . You know if there's some there's some dialogue all of a sudden that I can't hear , I'm trying to actually find out what's being said ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: so maybe speech recognition gets in the way more than it helps .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah but you know the the average frequency of pushing buttons , it's about {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well it depends if it's a remote control th
Marketing: it's about eighty eighty eighty pushes per hour , or something like that .
User Interface: Maybe if the remote control is something that y you don't actually have to pick up anymore , that would be a a useful feature of the speech recogntion .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: If you can leave it sitting on the table and you don't actually have to find it , then that could be {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay gentlemens , we have to take some deci decisions right now .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: Um so if I if I kind of summarise everything we've de we we said . We are targeting T_V_ . {vocalsound} We need {vocalsound} we need to have um um remote control which is fanc fancy , which is uh which is easy to to hand not too small , not too big . Um we have {disfmarker}
Marketing: With a good shape for the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: or good shape , yes . We should bring new technologies for young peoples , and uh as we have uh also requirements to to use uh to to push thr toward the internet . Maybe this is something we can stick to it . And um {vocalsound} also , a very interesting things I I I've seen on on on the {disfmarker} one of the comp o our competitor is this wheel that we can use to navigate . So so my feeling is that re regarding costs budget we have an an an target price , it's not possible to go s to go to L_C_D_ {vocalsound} and also to go to automatic speech recognition technologies . Uh first m m why not to go to L_C_D_ . Because um in fact as we are targeting uh T_V_ {disfmarker} in fact we can use T_V_ screen as a screen to feedback {disfmarker} to to give some feedback informations about what we could have .
User Interface: Well it depends though {disfmarker} well it depends . If we we don't {disfmarker} unless we have some input some video input to the T_V_ or we have control over the T_V_ then we can't actually display that . Like if we if we produce the T_V_s then then yeah we can put you know menus up up there , but otherwise we need to actually have some kind of {disfmarker} something sitting in between the video signal and the and the T_V_ to superimpose those those menus . So that's an extra
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah that's right . Don don't you ha
User Interface: cost .
Project Manager: don't we have contacts with uh people on T_V_ or or {gap} well systems that exist that we can use ?
User Interface: Well this is this is another que we still haven't really defined the remote . Are we still {disfmarker} you say we're focusing on T_V_ , but is it still a kind of like a universal remote in that it's a replacement remote control , or is this something for our own line of of televisions ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: 'Cause that really makes a big difference . 'Cause {vocalsound} even if we have contacts we can't really produce a remote control that can bring up menus on other other companies' T_V_s . It's just there are too many T_V_s out there . It's it's not really gonna {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . That's good point . What's what cou what could be the cost of uh {disfmarker} well , could we fit the the targets uh in terms of cost uh if we go s to L_C_D_ on the remote control ?
User Interface: For twenty five Euro ? {vocalsound} I think it's impossible .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It's not possible . It's impossible .
User Interface: But but I dunno ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: I think um it would be good to know if there is any leverage in that {disfmarker} any leeway in that um that twenty five Euro because for twenty five Euro I think all we can really do is provide a very basic remote control , and that seems to be kind of against the philosophy of our company which is you know putting the fashion into electronics . So I would I would like to know if there's any chance of of increasing the uh
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: of increasing the unit price .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So you mean yo you mean we we should target something maybe which is {disfmarker} which would be more expensive but re really fancy in terms to um {disfmarker} in terms to had {disfmarker} to have really an added value ?
Marketing: What would be {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah
Project Manager: Okay ,
User Interface: because {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: so regarding the automatic speech recognition , I think this is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Wha but what would be {disfmarker} one question , what would be the goal of putting an L_C_D_ in a remote control ?
User Interface: Well th
Marketing: What what kind of information ?
User Interface: 'Cause you can have things like the programme name instead of the channel numbers , like an interactive programme guide .
Marketing: Yeah but mo most of the T_V_s nowadays show the show the
Project Manager: They have tele teletext . Well , because they have teletext on it .
Marketing: the n
Project Manager: Th th you have a teletext sin signal that you can that you can uh that you can get thr through the channel .
Marketing: Yeah but yeah most of the T_V_s have teletext nowadays .
Project Manager: They have t most of them have teletext , but we want to get rid {disfmarker} well one of our requirements is to uh to move to teletext to uh to the use of internet .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So to to uh
User Interface: You can get a lot more information on it .
Project Manager: to browse more easily the teletext . For instance through uh through your remote control .
Marketing: So what would what would appear in the in the L_C_D_ ?
User Interface: So you could have the name of the programme , you could have um the start time you know where it's up to .
Project Manager: The ti the start time , all the p all the programmes you could have uh {disfmarker} o
User Interface: You could have a l even a little image of you know the c you know the the m the main actors or something
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: so you can quickly just kind of {disfmarker} even without reading {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well I don't know if this information is available from teletext , also .
User Interface: Well no , but there are the electronic programme guides out there . They may not have pictures , but maybe they do .
Industrial Designer: Are {disfmarker}
User Interface: There's {disfmarker} dependi it also depends on the country .
Project Manager: Well because {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for the same reason that we cannot uh {gap} informations on the T_V_ {gap} . We c we couldn't grab information information which is not there .
User Interface: No but I mean with the internet you have flexibility of where you get your information from . So it may be possible that there are people out there providing that . Uh .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} so that mean w w we need an in an extra internet connection to use the remote control , if you want to browse , in addition to the T_V_ , or uh or it should be a special T_V_ connected to {disfmarker}
Marketing: But {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: Well I I think if we're gonna {disfmarker} I think we would definitely need the internet connection because even with y I don't think you could even get teletext information from the T_V_ onto the remote control , especially if we don't control the T_V_ .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I dunno . We need to find that out .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} We need to close the meeting . Um {vocalsound} so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But {vocalsound} just a small thing ,
Project Manager: Very quickly .
Industrial Designer: what kind of market we are targeting ? Is it that we are targeting the replacement remote market , or what ? So the remote has gone bad and the person wants to buy a new remote or {disfmarker} because the cost of L_C_D_ thing could be as high as the T_V_ itself .
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: That is very important .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah , well people go to buy another remote control when they broke n broke their {gap} ,
User Interface: If it's a really small T_V_ maybe {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Broke . Okay . Okay .
Project Manager: and they want to go t for universal one , and they take the fanciest they can have .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Okay . Okay . Okay .
Project Manager: So this is {disfmarker} that we z that that we should target . So the com the um {vocalsound} the uh {vocalsound} the committment is the following , we don't go for speech recognition technology . The L_C_D_ is still on disc is still open to discussion .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: It is up to you to go through this um {vocalsound} uh this way and to to report report me back next meeting . So
Marketing: I think that the speech recognition technology would be cheaper the {disfmarker} than the L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: It's it's cheaper as compared to the L_C_D_ .
Project Manager: Yeah , but not sure . Maybe it's cheaper , but we have no {disfmarker}
Marketing: Because with the L_C_D_ you need more requirements . You need a internet connection . You need m more things .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But
User Interface: Well the thing is I think I think the type of peop
Marketing: for the speech recognition you you don't need anything . You just say channel fifty , and that's it .
User Interface: I think the type of people that are gonna want to buy a very stylish rem r remote control with lots of new technologies are the kinda people that are gonna have you know a wireless internet connection maybe , or a {disfmarker} you know .
Marketing: But then we should move to another target b because at twenty five Dollars ,
Industrial Designer: Means th yeah twenty five Euros is {disfmarker} yeah , that's right .
User Interface: Well this is what we need to find out .
Marketing: it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Can we can we increase the the price point of this remote control ? 'Cause otherwise we need {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay this is {gap} {disfmarker} this is an open question for you . Yeah . This is uh up to you to tell us . But I'm definitely not keen on to to {disfmarker}
Marketing: To move to another target ?
Project Manager: no no no , I'm no I'm definit definitely not keen on going to speech recognition technologies . I'm not confident enough . I'm not sure that that we'll have a product really that work . I uh that work {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's kind of hard to guarantee that you're gonna {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's real yeah . How to guarantee such performances is really hard .
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: {gap} the expert uh said ninety five percent {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well this is still {disfmarker} is is very bad .
User Interface: Ninety five percent is not good enough though . {gap}
Project Manager: So , this is the end of this discussion . Next meeting uh here are the task you have to work on . Um {vocalsound} so you have to work on the component uh concept .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Uh you have to work on user interface , and you have to go through a trend watching . Okay . So the question is still open about the L_C_D_ thing . Um uh we {disfmarker} I hope that next meeting we will uh we'll take some um decision that direction . Thanks . Bye .
User Interface: Yep . | |
doc_162 | Professor A: Am I on ? I guess so . Radio two . Hmm . Radio two .
Grad E: Hello ?
Professor A: Wow .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . Hi ?
PhD B: Blow into it , it works really well .
Grad F: Channel B .
Professor A: People say the strangest things when their microphones are on .
PhD D: Channel four . Test .
PhD C: Uh - oh .
PhD D: OK .
PhD C: Radio four .
Grad E: Hello ?
Professor A: So everybody everybody 's on ?
PhD D: Today 's
Professor A: Yeah . So y you guys had a {disfmarker} a meeting with uh {disfmarker} with Hynek which I unfortunately had to miss . Um and uh somebody
PhD C: Mmm .
Professor A: eh e and uh I guess Chuck you weren't there either , so the uh
PhD B: I was there .
Professor A: Oh you were there ?
PhD B: With Hynek ?
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor A: So everybody knows what happened except me . OK . {vocalsound} Maybe somebody should tell me .
PhD C: Oh yeah . Alright . Well . Uh first we discussed about some of the points that I was addressing in the mail I sent last week .
Professor A: Uh - huh .
PhD C: So . Yeah . About the um , well {disfmarker} the downsampling problem .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: Uh and about the f the length of the filters and {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor A: What was the {disfmarker} w what was the downsampling problem again ?
PhD C: So we had {disfmarker}
Professor A: I forget .
PhD C: So the fact that there {disfmarker} there is no uh low - pass filtering before the downsampling . Well .
Professor A: Uh - huh .
PhD C: There is because there is LDA filtering but that 's perhaps not uh the best w m
Professor A: Depends what it 's frequency characteristic is , yeah .
PhD C: Well . Mm - hmm .
Professor A: So you could do a {disfmarker} you could do a stricter one .
PhD D: System on
Professor A: Maybe . Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah . So we discussed about this , about the um {disfmarker}
Professor A: Was there any conclusion about that ?
PhD C: Uh " try it " . Yeah .
Professor A: I see .
PhD C: I guess .
Professor A: Yeah . So again this is th this is the downsampling {vocalsound} uh of the uh {disfmarker} the feature vector stream
PhD C: Uh .
Professor A: and um Yeah I guess the {disfmarker} the uh LDA filters they were doing do have um {vocalsound} uh let 's see , so the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the feature vectors are calculated every ten milliseconds so uh the question is how far down they are at fifty {disfmarker} fifty hertz . Uh . {vocalsound} Um .
PhD C: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Sorry at twenty - five hertz since they 're downsampling by two . So . Does anybody know what the frequency characteristic is ?
PhD C: We don't have yet
Professor A: Oh OK .
PhD C: um {vocalsound} So , yeah .
Professor A: OK .
PhD C: We should have a look first at , perhaps , {vocalsound} the modulation spectrum .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: Um . So there is this , there is the um length of the filters . Um . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} So the i this idea of trying to find filters with shorter delays . Um . We started to work with this .
Professor A: Hmm - hmm .
PhD C: Mmm . And the third point um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} was the um , yeah , {vocalsound} the on - line normalization where , well , the recursion f recursion for the mean estimation {vocalsound} is a filter with some kind of delay
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: and that 's not taken into account right now . Um . Yeah . And there again , yeah . For this , the conclusion of Hynek was , well , " we can try it but {disfmarker} "
Professor A: Uh - huh .
PhD C: Um .
Professor A: Try {disfmarker} try what ?
PhD C: So try to um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} um take into account the delay of the recursion for the mean estimation .
Professor A: OK .
PhD C: Mmm . And this {disfmarker} we 've not uh worked on this yet . Um , yeah . And so while discussing about these {disfmarker} these LDA filters , some i issues appeared , like well , the fact that if we look at the frequency response of these filters it 's uh , well , we don't know really what 's the important part in the frequency response and there is the fact that {vocalsound} in the very low frequency , these filters don't {disfmarker} don't really remove a lot . {vocalsound} compared to the {disfmarker} to the uh standard RASTA filter . Uh and that 's probably a reason why , yeah , on - line normalization helps because it {disfmarker} it ,
Professor A: Right .
PhD C: yeah , it removed this mean . Um . Yeah , but perhaps everything could {disfmarker} should be {disfmarker} could be in the filter , I mean , uh the {disfmarker} the mean normalization and {disfmarker} Yeah . So . Yeah . So basically that was {disfmarker} that 's {vocalsound} all we discussed about . We discussed about {vocalsound} good things to do also uh well , generally good stuff {vocalsound} to do for the research .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: And this was this LDA uh tuning perhaps and {vocalsound} Hynek proposed again to his uh TRAPS , so .
Professor A: OK .
PhD C: Yeah ,
Professor A: I mean I g I guess the key thing for me is {disfmarker} is figuring out how to better coordinate between the two sides
PhD C: um .
Professor A: cuz {disfmarker} because um
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: uh I was talking with Hynek about it later and the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} sort of had the sense sort of that {disfmarker} that neither group of people wanted to {disfmarker} to bother the other group too much . And {disfmarker} and I don't think anybody is , you know , closed in in their thinking or are unwilling to talk about things but I think that {vocalsound} you were sort of waiting for them to {vocalsound} tell you that they had something for you and {disfmarker} and that {disfmarker} and expected that they would do certain things and they were sor they didn't wanna bother you
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: and {vocalsound} they were sort of waiting for you and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and uh we ended up with this thing where they {disfmarker} they were filling up all of the possible latency themselves , and they just had hadn't thought of that . So . Uh . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I mean it 's true that maybe {disfmarker} maybe no one really thought about that {disfmarker} that this latency thing would be such a {disfmarker} a strict issue
PhD C: Yeah . Well , but . Yeah . Yeah . Well {disfmarker}
Professor A: in {disfmarker} in uh {disfmarker} the other {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah I don't know what happened really , but
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: I guess it 's {disfmarker} it 's also so uh the time constraints . Because , {vocalsound} well , we discussed about that {disfmarker} about this problem and they told us " well , we will do all that 's possible to have enough space for a network " but then , yeah , perhaps they were too short with the time and
Professor A: Then they couldn't . I see .
PhD C: uh yeah . But there was also problem {disfmarker} perhaps a problem of communication . So , yeah . Now we will try to {disfmarker}
Professor A: Just talk more .
PhD C: Yeah , slikes and send mails .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: u s o o Yeah .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: Uh . OK .
Professor A: So there 's um {disfmarker} Alright . Well maybe we should just uh I mean you 're {disfmarker} you 're bus other than that you folks are busy doing all the {disfmarker} all the things that you 're trying that we talked about before right ? And this {disfmarker} machines are busy and {vocalsound} you 're busy
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: and
PhD C: Basically .
Professor A: Yeah . OK . Oh .
PhD C: Um .
Professor A: Let 's {disfmarker} let 's , I mean , I think that as {disfmarker} as we said before that one of the things that we 're imagining is that uh there {disfmarker} there will be {vocalsound} uh in the system we end up with there 'll be something to explicitly uh uh do something about noise
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: in addition to the uh other things that we 're talking about and that 's probably the best thing to do . And there was that one email that said that {vocalsound} it sounded like uh uh things looked very promising up there in terms of uh I think they were using Ericsson 's {vocalsound} approach or something and {vocalsound} in addition to {disfmarker} They 're doing some noise removal thing , right ?
PhD C: Yeah , yeah . So yeah we 're {disfmarker} will start to do this also .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: Uh so Carmen is just looking at the Ericsson {disfmarker} Ericsson code .
PhD D: Yeah . We modif
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: And
PhD D: Yeah , I modified it {disfmarker} well , modifying {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I studied Barry 's sim code , more or less . to take @ @ the first step the spectral subtraction . and we have some {disfmarker} the feature for Italian database and we will try with this feature with the filter to find the result .
Professor A: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD D: But we haven't result until this moment .
Professor A: Yeah , sure .
PhD D: But well , we are working in this also
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD D: and maybe try another type of spectral subtraction , I don't {disfmarker}
Professor A: When you say you don't have a result yet you mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's just that it 's in process or that you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it finished and it didn't get a good result ?
PhD D: No . No , no n we have n we have do the experiment only have the feature {disfmarker} the feature but the experiment have
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: we have not make the experiment
Professor A: Oh . OK .
PhD D: and maybe will be good result or bad result , we don't know .
Professor A: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: OK . So um I suggest actually now we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we sorta move on and {disfmarker} and hear what 's {disfmarker} what 's {disfmarker} what 's happening in {disfmarker} in other areas like {vocalsound} what 's {disfmarker} what 's happening with your {vocalsound} investigations {vocalsound} about echos and so on .
Grad F: Oh um Well um I haven't started writing the test yet , I 'm meeting with Adam today
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: um and he 's going t show me the scripts he has for um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} running recognition on mee Meeting Recorder digits .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Uh {vocalsound} I also um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} haven't got the code yet , I haven't asked Hynek for {disfmarker} for the {disfmarker} for his code yet . Cuz I looked at uh Avendano 's thesis and {vocalsound} I don't really understand what he 's doing yet but it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it {disfmarker} it sounded like um {vocalsound} the channel normalization part {vocalsound} um of his thesis um {vocalsound} was done in a {disfmarker} a bit of I don't know what the word is , a {disfmarker} a bit of a rough way um {vocalsound} it sounded like he um he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it wasn't really fleshed out and maybe he did something that was {vocalsound} interesting for the test situation but I {disfmarker} I 'm not sure if it 's {vocalsound} what I 'd wanna use so I have to {disfmarker} I have to read it more , I don't really understand what he 's doing yet .
Professor A: OK . Yeah I haven't read it in a while so I 'm not gonna be too much help unless I read it again ,
PhD D: It 's my
PhD C: Oh yeah ?
PhD D: I know this is mine here .
Professor A: so . OK . Um . {vocalsound} The um {disfmarker} so you , and then {vocalsound} you 're also gonna be doing this echo cancelling between the {disfmarker} the close mounted and the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} what we 're calling a cheating experiment uh of sorts between the distant {disfmarker}
Grad F: Uh I I 'm ho Right . Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} or I 'm hoping {disfmarker} I 'm hoping Espen will do it .
Professor A: Ah ! OK .
Grad F: Um
Professor A: F um
Grad F: u
Professor A: Delegate . That 's good . It 's good to delegate .
Grad F: I {disfmarker} I think he 's at least planning to do it for the cl close - mike cross - talk and so maybe I can just take whatever setup he has and use it .
Professor A: Great . Great . Yeah actually um he should uh I wonder who else is I think maybe it 's Dan Ellis is going to be doing uh a different cancellation . Um . {vocalsound} One of the things that people working in the meeting task wanna get at is they would like to have cleaner {vocalsound} close - miked recordings . So uh this is especially true for the lapel but even for the close {disfmarker} close - miked uh cases um we 'd like to be able to have {vocalsound} um other sounds from other people and so forth removed from {disfmarker} So when someone isn't speaking you 'd like the part where they 're not speaking to actually be {disfmarker} So {vocalsound} what they 're talking about doing is using ec uh echo cancellation - like techniques . It 's not really echo but {vocalsound} uh just um uh taking the input from other mikes and using uh {vocalsound} uh a uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} an adaptive filtering approach to remove the effect of that uh other speech . So . Um what was it , there was {disfmarker} there was some {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} some point where {vocalsound} eh uh Eric or somebody was {disfmarker} was speaking and he had lots of {vocalsound} silence in his channel and I was saying something to somebody else uh {vocalsound} which was in the background and it was not {disfmarker} it was recognizing my words , which were the background speech {vocalsound} on the close {disfmarker} {vocalsound} close mike .
Grad F: Hmm .
PhD B: Oh the {disfmarker} What we talked about yesterday ?
Professor A: Yes .
PhD B: Yeah that was actually my {disfmarker} I was wearing the {disfmarker} I was wearing the lapel and you were sitting next to me ,
Professor A: Oh you {disfmarker} it was you I was Yeah .
PhD B: and I only said one thing but you were talking and it was picking up all your words .
Professor A: Yeah . Yeah . So they would like clean channels . Uh and for that {disfmarker} mmm uh {disfmarker} that purpose uh they 'd like to pull it out . So I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think Dan Ellis or somebody who was working with him was going to uh work on that . So . OK . Right ? Um . {vocalsound} And uh I don't know if we 've talked lately about the {disfmarker} the plans you 're developing that we talked about this morning uh I don't remember if we talked about that last week or not , but {vocalsound} maybe just a quick reprise of {disfmarker} of what we were saying this morning .
Grad E: OK .
Professor A: Uh .
Grad E: Um . {comment} So continuing to um extend
PhD B: What about the stuff that um Mirjam has been doing ? And {disfmarker} and S Shawn , yeah . Oh . So they 're training up nets to try to recognize these acoustic features ? I see .
Professor A: But that 's uh uh all {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} is a {disfmarker} a certainly relevant {comment} {vocalsound} uh study and , you know , what are the features that they 're finding . We have this problem with the overloading of the term " feature " so
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor A: uh {vocalsound} what are the variables , what we 're calling this one , what are the variables that they 're found {disfmarker} finding useful
PhD C: Hmm .
Professor A: um for {disfmarker}
PhD B: And their {disfmarker} their targets are based on canonical mappings of phones to acoustic f features .
Professor A: Right . And that 's certainly one thing to do and we 're gonna try and do something more f more fine than that but uh um so um So I guess you know what , I was trying to remember some of the things we were saying , do you ha still have that {disfmarker} ? Yeah .
Grad E: Oh yeah .
Professor A: There 's those {vocalsound} {pause} that uh yeah , some of {disfmarker} some of the issues we were talking about was in j just getting a good handle on {disfmarker} on uh {vocalsound} what " good features " are and {disfmarker}
PhD B: What does {disfmarker} what did um Larry Saul use for {disfmarker} it was the sonorant uh detector , right ? How did he {disfmarker} H how did he do that ? Wh - what was his detector ? Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Oh , OK . Mm - hmm . So how did he combine all these features ? What {disfmarker} what r mmm classifier did he Hmm . Oh right . You were talking about that , yeah . I see .
Professor A: And the other thing you were talking about is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is where we get the targets from . So I mean , there 's these issues of what are the {disfmarker} what are the variables that you use and do you combine them using the soft " AND - OR " or you do something , you know , more complicated um and then the other thing was so where do you get the targets from ? The initial thing is just the obvious that we 're discussing is starting up with phone labels {vocalsound} from somewhere and then uh doing the transformation . But then the other thing is to do something better and eh w why don't you tell us again about this {disfmarker} this database ? This is the {disfmarker}
PhD B: Hmm !
Professor A: And then tell them to talk naturally ? Yeah , yeah .
PhD B: Pierced tongues and Yeah . You could just mount it to that and they wouldn't even notice . Weld it . Zzz .
Professor A: Maybe you could go to these parlors and {disfmarker} and you could , you know {disfmarker} you know have {disfmarker} have , you know , reduced rates if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you can do the measurements .
PhD B: Yeah . I That 's right . You could {disfmarker} what you could do is you could sell little rings and stuff with embedded you know , transmitters in them and things
Professor A: Yeah . Yeah , be cool and help science .
PhD B: and Yeah .
Professor A: OK .
PhD B: Hmm ! There 's a bunch of data that l around , that {disfmarker} people have done studies like that w way way back right ? I mean {vocalsound} I can't remember where {disfmarker} uh Wisconsin or someplace that used to have a big database of {disfmarker} Yeah . I remember there was this guy at A T - andT , Randolph ? or r What was his name ? Do you remember that guy ? Um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} researcher at A T - andT a while back that was studying , trying to do speech recognition from these kinds of features . I can't remember what his name was . Dang . Now I 'll think of it . That 's interesting .
Professor A: Do you mean eh {disfmarker} but you {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} Mar
PhD C: Well he was the guy {disfmarker} the guy that was using {disfmarker}
Professor A: you mean when was {disfmarker} was Mark Randolph there , or {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: Mark Randolph .
Professor A: Yeah he 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} he 's at Motorola now .
PhD B: Oh is he ?
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD B: Oh OK .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD C: Is it the guy that was using the pattern of pressure on the tongue or {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: I can't remember exactly what he was using , now . But I know {disfmarker} I just remember it had to do with you know {vocalsound} uh positional parameters
PhD C: What {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD B: and trying to m you know do speech recognition based on them .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Yeah . So the only {disfmarker} the only uh hesitation I had about it since , I mean I haven't see the data is it sounds like it 's {disfmarker} it 's {vocalsound} continuous variables and a bunch of them . And so
PhD B: Hmm .
Professor A: I don't know how complicated it is to go from there {disfmarker} What you really want are these binary {pause} labels , and just a few of them . And maybe there 's a trivial mapping if you wanna do it and it 's e but it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I worry a little bit that this is a research project in itself , whereas um {vocalsound} if you did something instead that {disfmarker} like um having some manual annotation by {vocalsound} uh you know , linguistics students , this would {disfmarker} there 'd be a limited s set of things that you could do a as per our discussions with {disfmarker} with John before
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: but the things that you could do , like nasality and voicing and a couple other things you probably could do reasonably well .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: And then there would {disfmarker} it would really be uh this uh uh binary variable . Course then , that 's the other question is do you want binary variables . So . I mean the other thing you could do is {vocalsound} boot trying to {disfmarker} to uh get those binary variables and take the continuous variables from {vocalsound} uh the uh {vocalsound} uh the data itself there , but I {disfmarker} I 'm not sure {disfmarker}
PhD B: Could you cluster the {disfmarker} just do some kind of clustering ?
Professor A: Guess you could , yeah .
PhD B: Bin them up into different categories and {disfmarker}
Professor A: Yeah . So anyway that 's {disfmarker} that 's uh {disfmarker} that 's another whole direction that cou could be looked at . Um . {vocalsound} Um . {vocalsound} I mean in general it 's gonna be {disfmarker} for new data that you look at , it 's gonna be hidden variable because we 're not gonna get everybody sitting in these meetings to {vocalsound} wear the pellets and {disfmarker} Um . So .
Grad E: Right . Right .
PhD B: So you 're talking about using that data to get uh instead of using canonical mappings of phones .
Grad E: Right .
PhD B: So you 'd use that data to give you sort of what the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the true mappings are for each phone ?
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: I see .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Yeah . So wh yeah , where this fits into the rest in {disfmarker} in my mind , I guess , is that um {vocalsound} we 're looking at different ways that we can combine {vocalsound} uh different kinds of {disfmarker} of rep front - end representations {vocalsound} um in order to get robustness under difficult or even , you know , typical conditions . And part of it , this robustness , seems to come from {vocalsound} uh multi - stream or multi - band sorts of things and Saul seems to have {vocalsound} a reasonable way of looking at it , at least for one {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} one um articulatory feature . The question is is can we learn from that {vocalsound} to change some of the other methods we have , since {disfmarker} I mean , one of the things that 's nice about what he had I thought was that {disfmarker} that it {disfmarker} it um {disfmarker} the decision about how strongly to train the different pieces is based on uh a {disfmarker} a reasonable criterion with hidden variables rather than {vocalsound} um just assuming {vocalsound} that you should train e e every detector uh with equal strength {vocalsound} towards uh it being this phone or that phone . Right ? So it {disfmarker} so um {vocalsound} he 's got these um uh uh
PhD B: Hmm .
Professor A: he " AND 's " between these different {vocalsound} features . It 's a soft " AND " , I guess but in {disfmarker} in principle {vocalsound} you {disfmarker} you wanna get a strong concurrence of all the different things that indicate something and then he " OR 's " across the different {disfmarker} soft " OR 's " across the different uh {vocalsound} multi - band channels . And um {vocalsound} the weight yeah , the target for the training of the " AND " {disfmarker} " AND ' ed " things {vocalsound} is something that 's kept {vocalsound} uh as a hidden variable , and is learned with EM . Whereas what we were doing is {disfmarker} is uh {vocalsound} taking {vocalsound} the phone target and then just back propagating from that
PhD B: So he doesn't have {disfmarker}
Professor A: which means that it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's uh i It could be for instance {vocalsound} that for a particular point in the data {vocalsound} you don't want to um uh train a particular band {disfmarker} train the detectors for a particular band . You {disfmarker} you wanna ignore {vocalsound} that band , cuz that 's a {disfmarker} Ban - band is a noisy {disfmarker} noisy measure .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: And we don't {disfmarker} We 're {disfmarker} we 're still gonna try to train it up . In our scheme we 're gonna try to train it up to do as well {disfmarker} well as it can at predicting . Uh . Maybe that 's not the right thing to do .
PhD B: So he doesn't have to have truth marks or {disfmarker} Ho
Grad E: F right , and uh he doesn't have to have hard labels .
Professor A: Well at the {disfmarker} at the tail end , yeah , he has to know what 's {disfmarker} where it 's sonorant . But he 's {disfmarker} but what he 's - but what he 's not training up {disfmarker} uh what he doesn't depend on as truth is
Grad E: Right . For the full band .
Professor A: um I guess one way of describing would be if {disfmarker} if a sound is sonorant is it sonorant in this band ? Is it sonorant in that band ?
Grad E: Right .
Professor A: Is it sonorant in that band ? i It 's hard to even answer that what you really mean is that the whole sound is sonorant . So
PhD B: Mm - hmm . OK .
Professor A: then it comes down to , you know , to what extent should you make use of information from particular band {vocalsound} towards making your decision . And um {vocalsound} uh we 're making in a sense sort of this hard decision that you should {disfmarker} you should use everything {vocalsound} uh with {disfmarker} with uh equal strength .
PhD B: I see .
Professor A: And uh because in the ideal case we would be going for posterior probabilities , if we had {vocalsound} uh enough data to really get posterior probabilities and if the {disfmarker} if we also had enough data so that it was representative of the test data then we would in fact be doing the right thing to train everything as hard as we can . But um this is something that 's more built up along an idea of robustness from {disfmarker} from the beginning and so you don't necessarily want to train everything up towards the {disfmarker}
PhD B: So where did he get his {disfmarker} uh his tar his uh high - level targets about what 's sonorant and what 's not ?
Grad E: From uh canonical mappings {comment} um at first
PhD B: OK .
Professor A: Yeah .
Grad E: and then it 's unclear um eh
PhD B: Using TIMIT ? or using {disfmarker}
Grad E: using TIMIT
PhD B: Uh - huh .
Grad E: right , right .
Professor A: Yeah .
Grad E: And then uh he does some fine tuning um for um special cases . Yeah .
Professor A: Yeah . I mean we ha we have a kind of {vocalsound} iterative training because we do this embedded Viterbi , uh so there is some something that 's suggested , based on the data but it 's {disfmarker} it 's not {disfmarker} I think it s doesn't seem like it 's quite the same , cuz of this {disfmarker} cuz then whatever {vocalsound} that alignment is , it 's that for all {disfmarker} all bands .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Well no , that 's not quite right , we did actually do them separate {disfmarker} tried to do them separately so that would be a little more like what he did . Um . But it 's still {vocalsound} not quite the same because then it 's {disfmarker} it 's um setting targets based on where you would say {vocalsound} the sound begins in a particular band . Where he 's s this is not a labeling per se . Might be closer I guess if we did a {vocalsound} soft {disfmarker} soft target uh {vocalsound} uh embedded {vocalsound} neural net training like we 've done a few times uh {vocalsound} f the forward um {disfmarker} do the forward calculations to get the gammas and train on those . Mmm . Uh what 's next ?
PhD B: I could say a little bit about w stuff I 've been playing with .
Professor A: Oh . You 're playing ?
PhD B: I um Huh ?
Professor A: You 're playing ?
PhD B: Yes , I 'm playing . Um {vocalsound} so I wanted to do this experiment to see um {vocalsound} uh what happens if we try to uh improve the performance of the back - end recognizer for the Aurora task and see how that affects things . And so I had this um {disfmarker} I think I sent around last week a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} this plan I had for an experiment , this matrix where {vocalsound} I would take the um {disfmarker} the original um the original system . So there 's the original system trained on the mel cepstral features and then com and then uh optimize the b HTK system and run that again . So look at the difference there and then uh do the same thing for {vocalsound} the ICSI - OGI front - end .
Professor A: What {disfmarker} which test set was this ?
PhD B: This is {disfmarker} that I looked at ?
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Uh I 'm looking at the Italian right now .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So as far as I 've gotten is I 've uh {vocalsound} been able to go through from beginning to end the um full HTK {vocalsound} system for the Italian data and got the same results that um {disfmarker} that uh {vocalsound} Stephane had . So um I started looking {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} and now I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sort of lookin at the point where I wanna know what should I change in the HTK back - end in order to try to {disfmarker} uh to improve it . So . One of the first things I thought of was the fact that they use {vocalsound} the same number of states for all of the models
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: and so I went on - line and I uh found a pronunciation dictionary for Italian digits
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: and just looked at , you know , the number of phones in each one of the digits . Um you know , sort of the canonical way of setting up a {disfmarker} an HMM system is that you use {vocalsound} um three states per phone and um {vocalsound} so then the {disfmarker} the total number of states for a word would just be , you know , the number of phones times three . And so when I did that for the Italian digits , I got a number of states , ranging on the low end from nine to the high end , eighteen . Um . {vocalsound} Now you have to really add two to that because in HTK there 's an initial null and a final null so when they use {vocalsound} uh models that have eighteen states , there 're really sixteen states . They 've got those initial and final null states . And so um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} their guess of eighteen states seems to be pretty well matched to the two longest words of the Italian digits , the four and five {vocalsound} which um , according to my , you know , sort of off the cuff calculation , should have eighteen states each .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And so they had sixteen . So that 's pretty close . Um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} but for the {disfmarker} most of the words are sh much shorter . So the majority of them wanna have nine states . And so theirs are s sort of twice as long . So {vocalsound} my guess {disfmarker} uh And then if you {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I printed out a confusion matrix um {vocalsound} uh for the well - matched case , and it turns out that the longest words are actually the ones that do the best . So my guess about what 's happening is that {vocalsound} you know , if you assume a fixed {disfmarker} the same amount of training data for each of these digits and a fixed length model for all of them but the actual words for some of them are half as long you really um have , you know , half as much training data for those models . Because if you have a long word and you 're training it to eighteen states , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh you 've got {disfmarker} you know , you 've got the same number of Gaussians , you 've gotta train in each case ,
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: but for the shorter words , you know , the total number of frames is actually half as many .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So {vocalsound} it could be that , you know , for the short words there 's {disfmarker} because you have so many states , you just don't have enough data to train all those Gaussians . So um I 'm going to try to um create more word - specific {vocalsound} um uh prototype H M Ms to start training from .
Professor A: Yeah , I mean , it 's not at all uncommon you do worse on long word on short words than long words anyway just because you 're accumulating more evidence for the {disfmarker} for the longer word ,
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: but .
PhD B: Yeah so I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll , the next experiment I 'm gonna try is to just um you know create {vocalsound} uh models that seem to be more w matched to my guess about how long they should be .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And as part of that um I wanted to see sort of how the um {disfmarker} how these models were coming out , you know , what w {vocalsound} when we train up uh th you know , the model for " one " , which wants to have nine states , you know , what is the {disfmarker} uh what do the transition probabilities look like {disfmarker} in the self - loops , {comment} look like in {disfmarker} in those models ? And so I talked to Andreas and he explained to me how you can {vocalsound} calculate the expected duration of an HMM just by looking at the transition matrix
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: and so I wrote a little Matlab script that calculates that and so I 'm gonna sort of print those out for each of the words to see what 's happening , you know , how these models are training up ,
Professor A: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD B: you know , the long ones versus the short ones . I d I did {disfmarker} quickly , I did the silence model and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and um that 's coming out with about one point two seconds as its average duration and the silence model 's the one that 's used at the beginning and the end of each of the {vocalsound} string of digits .
Professor A: Wow . Lots of silence .
PhD B: Yeah , yeah . And so the S P model , which is what they put in between digits , I {disfmarker} I haven't calculated that for that one yet , but um . So they basically {disfmarker} their {disfmarker} {vocalsound} their model for a whole digit string is silence {vocalsound} digit , SP , digit , SP blah - blah - blah and then silence at the end . And so .
Professor A: Are the SP 's optional ? I mean skip them ?
PhD B: I have to look at that , but I 'm not sure that they are . Now the one thing about the S P model is really it only has a single s emitting state to it .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So if it 's not optional , you know , it 's {disfmarker} it 's not gonna hurt a whole lot
Professor A: I see .
PhD B: and it 's tied to the center state of the silence model so it 's not its own {disfmarker} um It doesn't require its own training data ,
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: it just shares that state .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So it , I mean , it 's pretty good the way that they have it set up , but um i So I wanna play with that a little bit more . I 'm curious about looking at , you know {vocalsound} how these models have trained and looking at the expected durations of the models and I wanna compare that in the {disfmarker} the well - matched case f to the unmatched case , and see if you can get an idea of {disfmarker} just from looking at the {vocalsound} durations of these models , you know , what what 's happening .
Professor A: Yeah , I mean , I think that uh , as much as you can , it 's good to d sort of not do anything really tricky .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Not do anything that 's really finely tuned , but just sort of eh you know you t you i z
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor A: The premise is kind of you have a {disfmarker} a good person look at this for a few weeks and what do you come up with ?
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor A: And uh
PhD B: And Hynek , when I wa told him about this , he had an interesting point , and that was th um {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the final models that they end up training up have I think probably something on the order of six Gaussians per state . So they 're fairly , you know , hefty models . And Hynek was saying that well , probably in a real application , {vocalsound} you wouldn't have enough compute to handle models that are very big or complicated . So in fact what we may want are simpler models .
Professor A: Could be .
PhD B: And compare how they perform to that . But {vocalsound} you know , it depends on what the actual application is and it 's really hard to know what your limits are in terms of how many Gaussians you can have .
Professor A: Right . And that , I mean , at the moment that 's not the limitation , so .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: I mean , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} what I thought you were gonna say i but which I was thinking was um where did six come from ? Probably came from the same place eighteen came from . You know , so .
PhD B: Yeah . Right .
Professor A: Uh {vocalsound} that 's another parameter , right ? that {disfmarker} that maybe , you know , uh {disfmarker} you really want three or nine or {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah , yeah . Well one thing {disfmarker} I mean , if I {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if I start um reducing the number of states for some of these shorter models {vocalsound} that 's gonna reduce the total number of Gaussians .
Professor A: Right .
PhD B: So in a sense it 'll be a simpler system .
Professor A: Yeah . Yeah . But I think right now again the idea is doing just very simple things
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor A: how much better can you make it ? And um since they 're only simple things there 's nothing that you 're gonna do that is going to blow up the amount of computation
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: um so
PhD B: Right . Right .
Professor A: if you found that nine was better than six that would be O K , I think , actually .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Doesn't have to go down .
PhD B: Yeah . I really wasn't even gonna play with that part of the system yet ,
Professor A: Mm - hmm , OK .
PhD B: I was just gonna change the {disfmarker} the t
Professor A: Yeah , just work with the models , yeah .
PhD B: yeah , just look at the length of the models and just see what happens .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD B: So .
Professor A: Cool . OK . So uh {vocalsound} what 's uh I guess your plan for {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you guys ' plan for the next {disfmarker} next week is {vocalsound} just continue on these {disfmarker} these same things we 've been talking about for Aurora and
PhD C: Yeah , I guess we can try to {vocalsound} have some kind of new baseline for next week perhaps . with all these minor things {vocalsound} {vocalsound} modified . And then do other things , play with the spectral subtraction , and {vocalsound} retry the MSG and things like that .
Professor A: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah we {disfmarker} we have a big list .
PhD C: Big list ?
Professor A: You have a big list of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} of things to do . So . Well that 's good . I think {vocalsound} that after all of this uh um confusion settles down in another {disfmarker} some point a little later next year there will be some sort of standard and it 'll get out there and {vocalsound} hopefully it 'll have some effect from something {vocalsound} that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that has uh been done by our group of people but uh e even if it doesn't there 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} there 's go there 'll be standards after that . So .
PhD B: Does anybody know how to um {vocalsound} run Matlab sort of in batch mode like you c send it {vocalsound} s a bunch of commands to run and it gives you the output . Is it possible to do that ?
Grad E: I {disfmarker} I think uh Mike tried it
PhD B: Yeah ?
Grad E: and he says it 's impossible so he went to Octave .
PhD B: Octave .
Grad E: Octave is the um UNIX clone of {disfmarker} of Matlab which you can batch .
PhD B: Ah ! OK . Great . Thanks .
Grad E: Yeah .
PhD B: I was going crazy trying to do that .
Professor A: Huh .
Grad E: Yeah .
PhD C: What is Octave so ? It 's a free software ?
Grad E: What 's that ? Uh , Octave ?
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad E: Yeah it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's free . I think we have it here {comment} r running somewhere .
PhD B: Great !
Grad E: Yeah .
PhD C: And it does the same syntax and everything eh like Matlab , or {disfmarker} ?
Grad E: Um {vocalsound} {comment} i it 's a little behind , it 's the same syntax but it 's a little behind in that {comment} Matlab went to these like um you can have cells and you can {disfmarker} you can {comment} uh implement object - oriented type things with Matlab . Uh Octave doesn't do that yet , so I think you , Octave is kinda like Matlab um four point something or .
PhD B: If it 'll do like a lot of the basic matrix and vector stuff
Grad E: The basic stuff , right .
PhD B: that 's perfect .
Grad E: Yeah .
PhD B: Great !
Professor A: OK , guess we 're done .
Grad E: OK .
Grad F: Well , although by the way . | |
doc_163 | Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um almost , there's one more thing I have to get out of the {disfmarker} I have to make sure that this attachment will open .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I keep forgetting whether I've done this . {gap} .
Project Manager: Ah-ha . Okay . We'll open that when the time is right . In the meantime {disfmarker} Closing things down , okay . Let's see what this thing does . Does it come up together or disappear one of them or what ? Ah , we came up together , we're good . Okay . Are we ready to start ? Okay . It's now quarter of four . This is a f another forty minute one so it will end at four twenty five . Okay . Right . Our agenda is , as before , for me to open the meeting , for us to go over the previous minutes , then for the two of you to present your prototype and for you to g um Sarah present the evaluation criteria . We then have a finance aspect , which is a spreadsheet , an Excel spreadsheet . And I know what you're all thinking of , oh my , um because we're only given a forty minute time period to get it all in , including the production evaluation . So we're going to make a very fast track . Okay . Um and as you can see that's what we do next on this thing . So the first thing I have to do is close this so that I can get to {disfmarker} Where is it ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Red .
Project Manager: I need to open mine . Not the agenda .
Marketing: Agenda three .
Project Manager: No that th I want the minutes from the previous {disfmarker} minutes .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: That should be there , minutes . Yeah . Okay . Uh from meeting three , is it alright with you if I don't switch it to show , just use it as is ? 'Cause this way I can more easily flip it . Okay , um obviously all of us were here for the last meeting , we reviewed the previous minutes before that , um each of you made your presentations . {vocalsound} Um we discussed the various possibilities based on what was presented in those presentations . The market trend of fruit and veg , mm spongy , uh fancy and elegant more than technologically innovative and that more than easy . Um we decided chip on print would be used . Um we would use plastic with a rubber casing , I think was the consensus , powered by kinetic energy . There was no decision made on the curvatures or double curvature or straight . Um perhaps the prototype will give us an inkling of that . Um looking like a scroll , but it's really a push button technology , excuse my spelling um that was actually in use , that is uh behind the scenes is push button which we uh according to Kate have a very good uh grasp on doing that in production . Um we decided that separate fashionable covers covering your fruit and veg might be a separate product that could be suggested to management . Um and as suggested um yellow with black buttons with the company logo , a slogan and image might be a good idea based on the requirements that have been provided to us . Um we did have a few production issues and coordination of the various bits and we had some conflict of ideas and cost constraints and we ran out of time . Um we had to follow that up and prepare for the last one . And uh we closed as it ran out of time . Is that a fair presentation of what happened ?
Industrial Designer: Yep .
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: Okay , back to this meeting . Um we're down to the prototype presentation .
Industrial Designer: Ta-da .
User Interface: Alright .
Project Manager: Over to you .
Industrial Designer: Right .
User Interface: Well .
Project Manager: Ooh , two .
User Interface: Yeah , well you see , each made one , we didn't have enough yellow dough .
Project Manager: Ah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: This is the one that I made .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
User Interface: It is uh curved , easy to hold , hand-held , nice and small with big easy buttons . This is like a scroll , but they are push buttons and they enter {disfmarker} takes you into the different menus . Of course we need someone who's experienced with the television {gap} . I mean this is the infrared thing that's gonna zap at the television . Uh I'm not quite sure how to make that , but I'm sure it will work . Uh this is on off switch , 'cause I think we do need that , and I think it gives it a nice balance .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: And it's gonna have the logo imprinted on it uh in there .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Um as for what it's actually made of {disfmarker} well the function of these buttons is up , down , left and right {vocalsound} in the different menus .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Uh position , I presume that just means right right on it , easy to see . The main feature of it is just a simple design , simple , lack of uh buttons all over the place . Right ? {vocalsound} Form curved , kind of smooth , hand-held , makes it feel nice to hold . Uh material , I think Kate's gonna tackle that quite a bit , but I think we have two different options , because we did make a another one , which wa uh is in the shape of banana , it's just {disfmarker} if you can imagine this as yellow with black buttons , like just like this but in the shape of a banana ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: which is also nice and easy to hold and feels good and has a similar sort of scroll push button technology , just a slightly different design .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Also with on off switch and infrared {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh I had envisioned it in hard smooth plastic . So like uh {disfmarker} well , I dunno , what's it like ? I guess like an existing remote control , but molded and smooth . Whereas otherwise we'd thought , like with this one {disfmarker} or mix and match , just we were gonna see what you thought , the {disfmarker} uh a more spongy rubber cover with spongy buttons . So we have the two options we can follow , either the smooth hard plastic or the spongy rubber , depending on cost restraints . And what we well , what conclusion we reach when we discuss it . {vocalsound} Uh material {disfmarker} yeah , that's what I have to say about material . Can I scroll down on there and see what else {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Well colour , I think {disfmarker} I definitely have a preference towards bright yellow with black buttons , because that's the company colours , but if anybody's got any other suggestions , I'm quite willing to consider them as well . {vocalsound} So , it just depends what you think about these ideas and if I'm {disfmarker} yeah , maybe , Kate , you better say what you think about them .
Industrial Designer: Um well I don't have very much to add . Um the the case {disfmarker} oops , that's the uh on off button just come off our prototype .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: The the case can be either um spongy rubber or hard plastic . We're not absolutely sure about a combination of the two , but it can be either of those . We have the technology to do that . Um and as for the the actual components um , uh Steph just said this is a {disfmarker} quite a cheap device to manufacture . We have simple rubber push buttons um which provide all the functionality we need . Um the um {vocalsound} the diode that actually does the um infrared is at the end , it's the stalk of the banana , or it's just the thing at the end of this version . Um so that's for material . Colour , well uh Steph's the expert on colour . Um we we don't have any particular restrictions on that . Yeah , I think that's all we've got to say really .
User Interface: I thin as for as for the fruit or organic theme , I guess this one is obviously fruit shaped .
Industrial Designer: A banana .
User Interface: This one has n banana , yeah . This one has no obvious connections to fruit , but because it's round and molded , it kinda makes you think sort of organic , touchy-feely , kiddie , it's more like {disfmarker} yeah , you'd expect it to be like a child's sorta toy remote control instead of a real one , which I quite like that sort of image . 'Cause it's very big and chunky and child-friendly and
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Would you care to examine the prototypes , see how they feel in the hand ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Hold them , you see , you know . Curvature , is it to your liking ?
Project Manager: Oh I see , the on-off's in the back .
Industrial Designer: Yes , that's so that your index finger automatically goes straight to it .
User Interface: {vocalsound} If you don't wanna tire out your thumbs after all .
Project Manager: And then you can use your thumb . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And it was partly we thought the design looked better ,
User Interface: Yeah . {gap}
Project Manager: I could see this thing , unless it's reinforced , having a problem with the you know {disfmarker}
User Interface: Breaking ,
Project Manager: yeah .
User Interface: oh right . {vocalsound} Well you see , that's why hard plastic would be quite a good thing for it , because then it'd just be rigid .
Marketing: I like the fact that on both of them the keys play such a prominent role .
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: Yeah , {gap} we really like we really like that design ,
Marketing: It's really kind of a {disfmarker}
User Interface: I mean it looks just like a logo , that arrangement of the keys . Like a c like a compass point , you know ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm mm-hmm .
User Interface: just up , down , left and right , and we think we could make that quite a good feature . And it's like the the iPod scroll wheel , {vocalsound} but better .
Marketing: Yeah . But it's also like texting ,
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah , yeah ,
Marketing: you don't {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: I mean it {disfmarker} that's what it makes me think of , mobile phones ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I was try I was thinking , moving your thumb like this , what does that remind me of ?
Industrial Designer: And it's a very simple design ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: It's texting .
Industrial Designer: there's not a lot to wrong , the components are cheap to make .
Marketing: It's also in terms of um being lost it's it's quite {disfmarker} it looks quite different .
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: You know , I I d I have several {disfmarker} four remotes , and they all look the same until you get up close and you have to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: you know , this is really identifiable .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I mean the thing is we do need to develop our technology of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean actually how to program the menus and what sort of , you know , text box is gonna appear at the bottom of the screen ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: but we do definitely think that it's a viable option .
Project Manager: Okay . The next item is evaluation .
Marketing: No , okay .
Project Manager: Uh if that's {disfmarker} if you're finished .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh yeah , we're finished .
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: shall I take your uh power ?
Project Manager: Oh sorry .
Marketing: Oh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Try again .
Marketing: Okay . This is going to be a heavily interactive evaluation , and the method here is to evaluate the new remote control in terms of the user requirements and the hot trends introduced by the marketing department . So , this means we're going to go over the priorities that were raised by uh the consumers a as well as incorporate all of our insight into this uh evaluation exercise . So I'm going to go and use the whiteboard , and I've made a list of criteria to look at , and so I'm gonna I'm gonna leave this up as the last thing , but for the evaluation it's going to be one is true and seven is false , going over these different criteria , so one true seven false and I'm gonna now use the um the board . Okay . So um fancy , technologically innovative , easy to use , trendy , buttons , excess buttons , good buttons , ugly , sellable , and other . And in fact I hope that uh you all introduce some additional terms , because these are things that um have been brought up , some of them seem rather close ,
User Interface: Yeah , what about price , is that gonna go on there as well ? Price of materials .
Marketing: like they overlap . Mm , yeah , price .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: We'll put price up at the top .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Not that we actually know anything about it ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but we can we can pretend .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well we will soon , unfortunately .
Marketing: Um Okay , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Come on .
Marketing: Did you say {gap} ?
Project Manager: No , {gap} .
Marketing: Uh okay , so wha how do we feel in terms of is this fancy ?
User Interface: It depends what what you mean by fancy really , 'cause when I think of fancy , I think of it's got lots of extra sort of fripperies and , you know , like baroque curliness and {disfmarker} which
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I'd call these quite uh minimalist ,
Industrial Designer: Yes , a plain , simple , clean design .
User Interface: simple and plain , but I mean I do see what {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it is heavily reliant on appearance instead of pure functionality ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: so in that respect it is quite fancy .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} yeah , so in that respect {disfmarker} I think we'll go with that respect .
User Interface: I think just maybe we need a different word other than fancy , I'd say maybe aesthetic .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well we have got s trendy further down ,
Project Manager: Elegant .
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Elegant .
Marketing: Elegant .
Industrial Designer: Elegant , I don't know if I'd call them elegant .
Marketing: Yeah , no these aren't the exact terms that the um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap} like stylish or aesthetic .
Industrial Designer: Stylish , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Elegant . We're gon let's use elegant , although the the the people , the word on the street is is {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Fancy .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} N that {disfmarker} um
User Interface: Did you just break the pen ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: yeah uh {disfmarker} the uh {disfmarker} is fancy . So let's let's take it to the next level .
User Interface: Well d we'll just call it fancy then .
Marketing: Well okay , so in terms of elegant , fancy . we'll call it E_F_ um , do we do we think that perhaps {disfmarker} and maybe we should say the yellow ? Should we go with the yellow in terms of {disfmarker} I think that's a really superior {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , I think we n we need to {disfmarker}
Marketing: they're both {disfmarker}
User Interface: they're both yellow with black buttons , it's just that we didn't have any more dough to represent uh that ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: but if you can just imagine banana shape with these bits as black .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: So what we re really need to decide is whether we want the actual banana shape or just a a purely blob or some sort of abstraction in between the two
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: that isn't {disfmarker} that is more curved , like a banana , but that isn't actually recognisable as a banana , you know , with the grooves and the stalk and stuff ,
Marketing: As a banana .
User Interface: so .
Marketing: I think that many of us are abstract enough to look at the yellow one and say we'll call it the banana .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: And of the two I really like I m I like the banana ,
Project Manager: The chunk .
Marketing: but I I do like the chunk .
User Interface: So that's maybe not something we have to decide just right now , is it .
Marketing: No ,
User Interface: Just somewhere a long the scale of in between these two .
Marketing: but I mean in terms {disfmarker} we have to evaluate one of them . Unless {disfmarker} do you guys wanna evaluate both ?
Project Manager: I think between the two , somewhere between the two is true .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , I'd {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's more true than false , about a two .
Marketing: Okay . So we say true . {vocalsound} technologically innovative .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I d I don't think that's what we're aiming at with this concept .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I think we're using simple components that are gonna be robust but not particularly innovative .
Marketing: So we'll say {disfmarker} we'll say uh false . Easy to use .
Industrial Designer: Very .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: {vocalsound} One ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: is that inappropriate ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay . Oh , pardon me . Um
Project Manager: Trendy .
User Interface: Oh yes .
Marketing: trendy , s {vocalsound} and I say specifically spongy fruity .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Well , maybe only a two or a three then , 'cause it's no we still haven't decided about specific sponginess or specific {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We have the worry about how robust it will be if it's it's curved as a banana but spongy .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , I don't really think that's gonna work ,
Industrial Designer: yeah .
User Interface: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay , so two ? Um
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Excess buttons .
Marketing: are there excess buttons ?
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: No .
User Interface: No .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} That is false .
Industrial Designer: So that's false . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um {vocalsound} good , well designed buttons , intuitive buttons .
Project Manager: Better , more intuitive buttons , yes .
Marketing: True . Ugly .
Industrial Designer: No .
User Interface: No . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No .
Marketing: People don't respond well to ugly . Sellable , uh quirky , you know , something people {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I think they're different , aren't they ?
User Interface: Well it is quite it is quite quirky I think .
Marketing: like oh ,
Project Manager: I like it .
Marketing: yeah . Yeah , I do too .
User Interface: It could be quite a good brand , like a good little object .
Marketing: Oh yeah . And I was I was thinking of other things um in terms of uh could we say it's cost saving ? With the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh , we also need tho think about the energy . Is it the kinetic energy ?
Marketing: Yeah , with the energy .
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: If it's {disfmarker} it is gonna be environmentally friendly with the kinetic energy .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: It is going to be kinetic ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: we'll c we'll say it's a cost saving enviro . Yeah , Uh so yes .
User Interface: Yeah , but we haven't completely developed that side of it yet , so we're not completely sure about that ,
Marketing: Well {vocalsound}
User Interface: but yeah .
Marketing: you're still in the Play-Doh stage .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Anything else ? Including price , do you have any idea about price or other features ?
Industrial Designer: Well I think our instinct is that it should be pretty cheap to develop . We haven't got a lot of expensive components in there .
Project Manager: Yes , the instinct says true .
Marketing: Okay . So true one or should I go to two or three ?
Industrial Designer: I'd put it at one I think , but {disfmarker} I dunno , what do you {disfmarker}
User Interface: I would say maybe a two ,
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: 'cause we still {disfmarker} we need to uh get somebody in who is good with the programming for the menus and things .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , true ,
User Interface: I mean it's not just like {disfmarker} I mean it's not like ev you know , on a normal chunky remote every button res I mean means something different ,
Project Manager: Yeah , that's not a cheap thing to get .
Industrial Designer: it might be the {disfmarker} yeah , yeah , true . True .
User Interface: whereas this one has only got the four buttons and they all {disfmarker} they mean everything , depending on what menu you're in .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's a good point .
User Interface: {gap} uh we need somebody to develop that .
Marketing: Um other ? Anything else you guys can thing of ? And I'm gonna actually change a couple of these so then I'm gonna {disfmarker} instead of ugly I'm gonna say it's attractive and then make that true , so that {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: 'cause I have to do an average . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right .
Marketing: And then um excess buttons .
User Interface: Just putting no excess buttons .
Marketing: Exactly . Wow we're doing really well . Yeah , be you know ,
User Interface: As for {disfmarker}
Marketing: so it doesn't ruin the polarity .
User Interface: see if we're technologically innovative , I'd say it is quite innovative , because there aren't really many that have this menu idea instead of all the extra buttons .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I mean I know we're not doing anything involving internet or speech recognition but but we are at the upper end of the push button market . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Or L_C_D_ . Yeah . Well if you g uh let me know if if any of these {disfmarker} um if you if you all can think of any other um thing to change here {disfmarker} if you th if you think I should change the innovative or add other features . If not I'll average those .
Project Manager: I think we're good .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay . Mm .
Project Manager: Okay . We're a little over halfway through the meeting
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and the next big thing is the finance . Okay .
Marketing: Um okay , how about if I uh pass this back to you
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: and I'll uh figure out the average here .
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: Thank you for everyone's help with that .
Project Manager: Right . And as you can see it says the same thing , it had not lost itself , thank Goodness . And we're going to raise what's called a sp a spreadsheet that they provided to me . Um and it says fill in the number of components you plan to use in your device .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hand dynamo , battery , kinetic , solar cells . Okay .
User Interface: Well , just kinetic then , {gap} .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Um what's a hand dynamo ?
Industrial Designer: That was the crank , wind-up crank on the side . {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's the wind-up .
Project Manager: Oh
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: shoot , forget that . Kinetic is um {disfmarker} and how many of those will we need per {disfmarker} we only need one .
Industrial Designer: Just one .
Project Manager: Okay . Electronic simple chip on print , and we'll need one of those .
Industrial Designer: Uh uh yeah , I think we can do it all with simple {disfmarker} Just checking that . Yeah , simple , 'cause we've just got push buttons , so we can do it all with simple which is the ch should be the cheapest .
Project Manager: Okay , and we only need one of those .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: Okay , the case will be uncurved and flat or a single curve or a double curve . It looks like it {gap} single curve , 'cause of th the chunkiness . It's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that that one is single curve ,
Project Manager: that's uh uh one .
Industrial Designer: isn't it ? Um do we have
Project Manager: And that's
User Interface: What does double curved mean , I don't understand .
Industrial Designer: I I think you {disfmarker} it means you reverse the curve .
Project Manager: uh that's the the one that goes like this .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , I do I don't think we need that for either of them ,
User Interface: Oh no , we don't need that . No .
Project Manager: Right .
Industrial Designer: you can do a banana in single curve ,
Project Manager: No ,
User Interface: Single-curved , I'd say .
Project Manager: single curve .
Industrial Designer: yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , case material supplements . Plastic , wood , rubber , titanium , special colour .
User Interface: I
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I just wanna say plastic .
Project Manager: We had the special colour . And did we say plastic ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , can we do some what ifs , 'cause it may {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I mean I I still quite like the idea of combining plastic and rubber myself ,
Marketing: One , two , three , four , five , six .
Industrial Designer: but it depends on the cost , I guess .
Project Manager: Okay . We'll come back , if we can , to the rubber being added at the moment , that's where we are . Interface button {disfmarker} push button interface . That's what we're using ,
User Interface: It's just button .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: isn't it ?
Industrial Designer: Yep .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Do we need to say how many buttons , or
Project Manager: Whoops , don't want that , not yet . Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: or d is it just one ?
Project Manager: No , it just says push button interface . Button supplements , they'll be in a special colour of black .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Project Manager: And the buttons {disfmarker} Wha what is the buttons made of , rubber ?
Industrial Designer: Uh they'll be rubber , yep .
Project Manager: So we need one of them . And are they any special form ?
User Interface: Well yeah , like the compass point one .
Industrial Designer: Actually , does tha does special material mean that plastic is not a special material ? 'Cause I think they can be plastic .
Project Manager: 'Cause the rate we're going we can put the rubber on top .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . They could be plastic , we don't have to have rubber buttons ,
Project Manager: Oh .
Industrial Designer: because we haven't got a double curved case .
User Interface: Yeah , they could be plastic .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . Um let's put that rubber in then , of the case material supplement .
Industrial Designer: It's just one , isn't it ?
Project Manager: Uh we only need one of them . Um and the total cost has been calculated as nine Pounds twenty out of the twelve and a half we were allowed .
Industrial Designer: What , we're in .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: We're in . {vocalsound} That's us .
Industrial Designer: More profit .
User Interface: Great .
Project Manager: Okay , I'm going to save this into our {vocalsound} desktop , project documents . Okay . As our project document bit .
Industrial Designer: Do you do you need to double click on that to open it ?
Project Manager: Yeah . There we are . That's the only Excel document that will be in there , so it's there for all of us . Okay , so , are they under twelve fifty ? Yes , go to the project evaluation , next slide .
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: Right . Um the project process , satisfaction with , for example , the room for creativity . Yeah , leadership , teamwork ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Sure . Yes .
Project Manager: means , of having whiteboard , the digital pens and all that kind of good things .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And Play-Doh .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah , the Play-Doh was best , I thought . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah well , 'cause I mean it's so hard to describe what you mean just with words and pointing at photographs and saying , well we quite want this , but imagine it rounder . So much better just to go and , you know , this is it , this is what we want . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yep .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} So , we went over all those things and we're satisfied with all the above .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: Um did we find any new ideas ?
Marketing: I think with the marketing element of uh fruit shaped I I mean I {disfmarker} that really opened my eyes .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} Spongy .
Marketing: I I only speak for myself though .
User Interface: And I'd never heard of the kinetic energy before ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: so . Good work as a design team ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , I think we're a good team actually .
User Interface: because we {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I'm not sure all the wires are really great though .
Project Manager: So we actually worked well as a group .
Industrial Designer: I thought so .
Project Manager: Right . Are the costs within the budget ? Yes .
User Interface: Oh yes .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: Is the project evaluated ?
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: I can give you a number ,
Industrial Designer: hang on , Oh we haven't heard . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Marketing: um it's uh {disfmarker} the average evaluation score is one point eight eight , so it means w you know , I can I can spell it out . There were six true or ones , four um pardon me , two s almost true or close to true , so that was four points , and then uh one false , seven points , so seventeen divided by nine {disfmarker} we're between one and two . I would say that's ex excellent in terms of uh ho how much we adhere to the ideals of the uh market place .
User Interface: Yeah . And the the only false one is because we've chosen to keep a simple old technology ,
Marketing: To maintain old technology , exactly .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: which if it works perfectly well I see no point in improving on if it works ,
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Absolutely , and it's kept us within budget .
User Interface: so . Yeah .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So we do count as I think excellent or one .
Project Manager: Alright .
User Interface: {gap} .
Project Manager: And we've therefore {disfmarker} we have to do the final questionnaire and do the meeting summary , I have a final report to present , um and then we're done .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: We done good , and we're finished in time .
User Interface: Bring on the ice sculptures .
Marketing: Nice .
Industrial Designer: And then we get the product launch party .
Marketing: So we might have to wait .
Industrial Designer: Product launch party ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: That's what I said , ice sculptures .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Absolutely . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um I {disfmarker} one thing I want to do is {disfmarker} oh , I think the meeting's done .
Project Manager: I believe that is the end of our meeting . Thank you , Melissa . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . Um one thing I wa I wanna do is save everything in the right files , because I don't think everything is saved . The right files . Final meeting market | |
doc_164 | User Interface: Here we go again .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} My mouse is not working anymore .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} He's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: when I put it in , is is going to beep beep beep .
Marketing: Oh , I got a nice little screen here over here .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I got like this big black border uh on every side .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Mm , okay .
Project Manager: Everybody ready ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} I'll I'll fix it .
User Interface: Yeah , it's okay .
Project Manager: Welcome at the functional design meeting , again presented by Maarten .
Marketing: Yeah , whatever .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh this is the agenda , the opening . Uh , we've got three presentations . And I'm gonna show you some of the new projects requirements that were sent to me . And we're gonna make a decision on the remote control functions . We have uh forty minutes .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: Oh , well this is the {vocalsound} the closing already .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So uh {disfmarker} well we start off with the th the first presentation then . Uh , I think um in uh {disfmarker} we have to do it in uh in right order .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Maybe the {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't know what the right order is . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well , it {disfmarker}
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: Huh .
Project Manager: Oh that . It won't {disfmarker} doesn't {disfmarker} Maybe we should start with the the technical functions .
Industrial Designer: Okay ,
Project Manager: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: how can I get this on the whiteboard ?
Project Manager: Well it's you dumped the file in the uh in the sh in the project document folder .
User Interface: In project .
Industrial Designer: Okay , I've done that .
Project Manager: You've already done that ?
User Interface: No can that open .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: Well let's close this one . We'll just uh open a new one .
User Interface: Open it there .
Project Manager: Uh , well . Yes . Uh-oh . New thing . Oh yeah , uh I have to say something . Uh , due to some uh technical problems I haven't uh digitized the last uh the meeting minutes . But I'll uh make sure that uh happens next time .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound} About the get {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And I'll get this one uh in digital uh form too .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay , we're going to um uh talk about working design . Um , the method of the remote control is uh electrical energy , it activates a chip uh in the remote . It's an electrical circuit which compose uh messages in the form of uh uh infrared signals to control the television . Mm , it's a nowadays very uh known , a known uh uh technology . Um , the known technology can make a cost very low . Uh , it's a wild uh {disfmarker} a wide sale uh of uh remote controls in the world . And and the components are very uh very cheap . Um , Uh , diodes , uh bat batteries and uh uh LED lights , they're needed and they're uh everywhere available . Uh , again , it's a fair price . It's a common uh technology uh , like I told um {disfmarker} Uh , the circuit board , it's the most um important uh um part of the remote control . Uh , we can use for that uh fibreglass with copper wires , it's {disfmarker} it is uh {disfmarker} can be made as fast as printing paper . It's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it's all very uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , they're making it uh all the time . Uh ,
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: and it's not uh very specialised uh technology . {vocalsound} I haven't come to here , but um I've got uh some uh images of uh remote controls . They were not uh very uh trendy or just uh just a remote control like everyone knows . So I don't know uh why I should put it here . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . But it's the technical side of the remote control .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yes , but uh I uh haven't made it because uh of the time .
Project Manager: Oh . Okay . Well , we'll we'll have to skip that part then .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} What ?
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: But you don't think it's a problem um to design uh the technical part of the remote control ? It's gonna be easy ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No . Yes .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: But nothing restricted for user interface ?
Project Manager: Yeah . M
User Interface: With technical {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Um , no , it's uh it's just a part of uh a known technology , yeah .
User Interface: I don't know .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: Remote control is nothing special nowadays .
Project Manager: R regardless of what type of functions we want to implement . Doesn't really matter .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: But I kind of uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I don't think so ,
Project Manager: Okay . Yeah , {gap} okay .
Industrial Designer: because of the {disfmarker} all the televisions uh {disfmarker} there are a few {disfmarker} maybe a couple of televisions with the new functions ,
User Interface: Yes . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: but is it useful to put them on a on a standard uh remote ?
Project Manager: Well , we'll see . We'll see later on .
User Interface: Well , the technical functions . Um , well I don't know if you got the same uh pictures as I got ,
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: but uh I got these two ,
Industrial Designer: No .
User Interface: and I think they're {disfmarker} we have to focus uh on uh the uh one hand the expert view or the novice user . {vocalsound} th I think it's it's very much uh depending on the user requirements , I don't s uh know who's doing t
Project Manager: Well , uh will there be some uh user requirements later on ? {vocalsound} The ones I {disfmarker} I've uh received from the account manager .
User Interface: Yeah , but it {disfmarker} I think that's very important to watch uh what kind of functions there we want to uh put in a remote control .
Project Manager: Yeah . Well , we'll keep this in mind , and then discuss it later on .
User Interface: Yeah , well y we can put functions in it when uh {disfmarker} yeah , when we uh get the user requirements uh and we can update it .
Project Manager: Uh-huh . Okay , but this real this uh big d uh distinction between this type of remote . {gap} we should we should choose one uh {disfmarker} we should not compromise but uh really choose for uh expert viewer or novice v
Marketing: Yes , I agree . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah ? Well , what {disfmarker} that's what you want {disfmarker} trying to say .
User Interface: Well , yeah w if you want try a a a huge market , if you want to reach a huge market , uh like elderly people and {disfmarker} we have to choose for novice user .
Project Manager: Okay . Okay .
User Interface: But I don't know . It's it's really um depending on how how how far the the the remote controls are already in n um in use .
Project Manager: Yeah , well {vocalsound} some of these {disfmarker} Uh , yeah . Well , some of that will {disfmarker} Yeah , but i but it will be more clear when we come to the uh u uh some of the new requirements .
User Interface: Yeah , probably , yeah .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh well , there are l at least uh basic functions , uh like just th the channels uh one till nine , uh on and off switch , which must be clear with a red button or something like that . Um , most standard uh have volume , of course , and a mute function , and , of course , the next and previous channel . I think that's just basic what we need .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And from that on we can {gap} user requirements what we need more . Uh {disfmarker} Yeah , I just um um I thought Joost was looking at the trendy {disfmarker} the trends in the markets , and I don't know if there uh are any um {disfmarker} uh if you put more functions , more buttons , maybe it's com becoming less trendy or something like that .
Marketing: Yes .
User Interface: M you can just {vocalsound} you can k {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I haven't really found a conclusion like that .
User Interface: you can keep it in mind that .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: I don't know . Uh , I th I thought the the {disfmarker} with less buttons you can make a more trendier uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Design .
User Interface: yeah , more trendier design , I think . I think .
Marketing: Sounds interesting .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh , well , that's all I have to say , I think .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah , that was it .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Alright .
Project Manager: Well , then the Marketing expert can uh tell us something about the current market .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes .
User Interface: {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah . It's alright . Um {disfmarker} Alright , I've done some research for functional requirements . Um {disfmarker} yes . The working method um {vocalsound} there were hundred uh uh w h one hundred people , uh how do you say uh , f watched using remote controls in the usability lab and they also uh filled out a questionnaire uh with a few questions . Uh , I've lined them up here . Uh , ask whether um common remote control looks good or not , about willingness to spend money on remote control , about zapping behaviour , and uh and stuff like that . I uh have found some interesting things . We do we do got a market . Um , {vocalsound} three out of four people claim m uh to find remote controls ugly . So if we make a trendy design , we sure have seventy fi seventy five percent of the market , which you can reach . Um , three out of four users uh zaps a lot , as I uh quoted here from the uh results . {vocalsound} Zap buttons are used one hundred and sixty eight times per hour . That's quite a lot . Um , {vocalsound} relevant options are , of course , power buttons . Although , only used once per hour . Uh , channel selection , volume and buttons for text , and the more um , yeah , other functions , like audio settings , video settings , sound settings are not said to be very important and uh very much used . Furthermore , fifty percent says uh they only use ten percent of the buttons on a remote control . That doesn't say we got {disfmarker} we can leave ninety percent off . But it sure um says we shouldn't make it too uh complicated . Fifty percent also claims uh to have lost a remote control very often in the room . And um {vocalsound} an important thing here , the most important customers uh , which is over seventy percent of our market , is in the age range of thirty six to sixty five years old . And uh elderly people , our market , are less interested in uh nice features , but more willingly to spend more money on remote controls . So , {vocalsound} what I was thinking {disfmarker} oh , wrong side . We shouldn't implement too much features on uh on our remote control , because elderly people will get th lost . Group features for a higher usability , uh what I was claiming in the previous meeting . Um , all the settings , about audio settings , video settings and channel settings , which are not very often used , we could group them uh on one button and make them accessible uh in one menu button or whatever , because they are used very rarely and well , it uh {disfmarker} there are a lot of options there , so we can really make uh {disfmarker} yeah , how do you say , we can spare at buttons over there .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} And um , if you want to implement V_C_R_ and D_V_D_ options , group them in the button , not too uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah . Small buttons , so they won't be very um , how do you say {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Visually presents .
Marketing: Yes , won't be very present , thank you . And a trendy look , well uh , although seventy percent of the market is uh {disfmarker} consists of elderly people uh who don't really care for trendy looks or whatever , I guess it can do no harm to make it trendy for the other thirty percent . That was kind of what I found .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: Well , then we {disfmarker} I'm gonna show you some of the new project requirements and then we gonna discuss on uh what features we find important .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes .
Project Manager: Uh , well some of the uh new requirements {vocalsound} make some of your findings quite uh irrelevant , I think .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Because um uh s decided to put {disfmarker} They have decide to put two additional requirements forward . Well , now I see four .
Marketing: Two ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's kinda strange . Well , they say tele teletext becomes outdated since the popularity of the internet . Well , I think that may be so , but well , we can't just leave the teletext button off .
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's impossible , I think .
User Interface: No way .
Marketing: {vocalsound} No uh , I agree , I agree .
Project Manager: So the compromise we could make is just to make one teletext button , you know , like on and off , and don't make a lot of special {disfmarker} put a lot of special features on it to make it transparent or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Not too much , no .
Project Manager: You know , it's just you want you want to be able to make use of teletext , but not to play with it that much .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So we have to think of that . The remote control should only be used for television . Otherwise , the project becomes more complex , which endangers the time t t ma uh the time to market . So maybe we should leave all D_V_D_ and V_C_R_ related features off completely .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: I don't know . I think that uh that's what they're trying to say .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh , our current customers are within the age group of forty plus . New products should reach a new market with customers that are younger than forty . So you uh talked about the elderly who were willing to spend more on a remote control and who were interested .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: But , well , they're not relevant because we are aiming at a younger {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I don't really agree actually , to be honest . It's a very small market which we will approach then if we uh want to reach customers younger than forty . It's only like thirty percent of the total market .
Project Manager: Yeah , but it is {disfmarker} it's is a dif it's a fact that the th th that bigger market you're talking about , we already cover that .
Marketing: Mayb yeah ?
Project Manager: Our company already sells remote control to the older people , but we we also want , {vocalsound} you know , a new customer group . That's the one we haven't covered yet . So I think that's what the problem is . We haven't got remote controls for uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: Well I think , yeah .
Marketing: Maybe maybe we can compromise a little bit .
Project Manager: Yeah , I think so . Maybe if it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Not too much then , bu alright .
Project Manager: no no , but I think we have to just keep in mind what the older age group wants . So maybe we can make a remote control that's primarily interesting for the younger group , but isn't that bad for an older person either .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: Uh , our corporate image sh should stay recognisable in our products . Our product's corporate colour and slogan must be implemented in the new design . Okay , {vocalsound} something else nice to know .
User Interface: But what's our slogan ?
Project Manager: Sorry ? Yeah , {vocalsound} you will have to look that up . {vocalsound}
User Interface: The slogan uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , I'll have a look .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think it's something about the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Puts fashion in electronics . {vocalsound}
Marketing: We put the fashion in electronics .
Project Manager: Oh , okay . {vocalsound} I thought it w might be , let's make things better or something , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Sense simplicity . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Sense and simplicity . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay well , {vocalsound} let's go back to the the agenda . So we've now had to {disfmarker} the three presentations . We know about the new project requirements . That means we can uh well d yeah , discuss on the remote control functions . Well , if I can uh make a start , I think it's becoming more clear what kind of remote control it's gonna be , and I already talked about the {disfmarker} maybe you have a f familiar with the rem remote control that has the the can opener underneath it . I think we're we're looking for some {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , we we're looking for a really simple remote control with only basic T_V_ functions . Y well , that {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Well , to be honest , if um our uh aim group is uh till forty , not older than forty , maybe that's not very uh {disfmarker} yeah , we don't really need to have a simple remote control .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: I think we can implement more functions then , because um {vocalsound} basically uh the younger people are more able to adapt to new technology
User Interface: Yeah , but wha
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah .
Marketing: and therefore will be a more {disfmarker}
Project Manager: M yeah , that's why um well a lot of um the use the requirements the the account manager sent me , I think they are are c are contradicting each other ,
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: because they want a simpler design , and no uh other uh s functions than just T_V_ , but they s do aim at a younger {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yes . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well , ma
User Interface: Yeah , but you sai you said that that a lot of functions aren't used .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: So why should j we put this function in ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well , I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: I think more {disfmarker} I think uh people {disfmarker} younger people are more looking for just a trendy look than uh more functions .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But I think uh you {disfmarker} we can make some discuss uh distinctions in uh what kin in the , know , th th in functions you have {disfmarker} Y Well you have different kind of uh equipment in your room , like a t T_V_ and a D_V_D_ player .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: You can uh , know , you {gap} you can {vocalsound} make very d you can put very detailed functions regarding the T_V_ set on your remote control uh with the with uh the , you know , audio settings and uh v uh screen settings . We don't want that . I think that was {disfmarker} that became clear . We don't want . But w maybe we should put some func uh , I know that the younger people will most likely have a D_V_D_ player they want to , you know , they want to uh
Marketing: Yeah , control .
User Interface: Yeah , but uh you said {disfmarker}
Project Manager: control , remotely .
User Interface: Yeah , d yeah , but th the functions are not in the remote control we're making .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No , yeah , th th the user requirements of the the {disfmarker} The new project requirements told us not to {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's n Yeah .
Project Manager: But maybe w Yeah . I think we maybe should {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , well we should uh put some functions for other {disfmarker} maybe for other equipment on it . But just the basic functions . Maybe like rewind and wind ,
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: or n what d what do you guys think ?
Industrial Designer: But you can put them under the same button .
Marketing: Not much more than that .
Project Manager: Yeah , if {disfmarker} as far as possible .
Marketing: Yep . Or we can u u we could put 'em behind the flip-flap or whatever .
Project Manager: But what do you think ?
Marketing: So t
Project Manager: Do th should we implement features that uh uh or functions that {disfmarker} to control other devices ?
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: No , you don't think so ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No , new requirements say no .
Project Manager: Yeah , the new requirements say so .
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But you can put a play and stop and and rewind .
Project Manager: Well , maybe it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: maybe there there there is something th m most of the time these functions don't support the particular device as well as their their own remote control .
User Interface: Yeah , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You know , a lot of D_V_D_ players have some tricky settings with {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes , but we {disfmarker}
User Interface: I i if it's too simple uh th they won't use the remote control , they use their own th th {vocalsound} with lot more functions .
Marketing: Y yes .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yep , exactly . That's that's wha
Marketing: But but for for example , V_C_R_ , that's better example in this case . I think on a remote control for television you don't need to be able to programme uh the V_C_R_ to start recording at three P_M_ or whatever ,
Project Manager: No no , you don't {vocalsound} {disfmarker} No no , you don't need it . No , no .
User Interface: No , no . Exactly .
Industrial Designer: Huh .
Marketing: just play , stop , rewind and uh fast forward .
Project Manager: Okay , but we have to think uh {disfmarker} w we have to think D_V_D_ I th uh , I guess ,
Marketing: Yeah , I know , but uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: so um but uh from my experience it's kinda {vocalsound} a lot of D_V_D_ players , you know , like forwarding , goes differently . Uh , you get two speed or eight speed or sixteen speed . It's c sometimes a bit difficult .
User Interface: Mm , yeah .
Project Manager: Maybe if we just leave the D_V_D_ functional m uh {disfmarker} Well , I was thinking about putting it in , but concerning the project requirements and what you just said , I think we m should focus on the T_V_ then .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes .
User Interface: Yeah , but just {disfmarker} {vocalsound} keep it simple and look more at th
Project Manager: And uh and it's just an uh a complimentary remote and not a universal one . If you want to keep it simple , you can make a universal remote .
User Interface: No . It's only for television . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . It's just a s it it should be something that is like a gadget on your coffee table ,
Industrial Designer: Yes , but there are there are {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and it's just for when you you you jump on the couch , you pick up the the the nice remote , the simple one , just to put on the television , nothing more .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , nothing more . Exactly .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: Um , but what televis
Industrial Designer: But how wi how will you be able to handle a whole market ? There are uh a dozen of uh {disfmarker} dozens of of remote controls that have {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , we we'll make w this one trendy .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And simple .
User Interface: {vocalsound} The user interface is easy .
Project Manager: Well , we we will come to that , but ju first on the on the functions . So we should put uh zap buttons on it . Um , also numbers , to uh to go to the specific channels .
User Interface: And the basic {disfmarker} yeah , basic functions , yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes , definitely , yeah .
Project Manager: Uh ,
User Interface: It's too much integrated in the other .
Project Manager: Okay , a t a teletext button should be there . But just one big teletext button , on and off .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Probably .
Marketing: Yeah , and maybe two or three other options , but not {disfmarker} nothing more than that . I think stop function is very useful . If you have a uh a page which consists of more pages , and you are not a very quick reader ,
Project Manager: Oh , okay .
Marketing: then I think it's very irritating if the next page shows up , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , but uh I think that becomes too difficult , it's not a very common function and people will have to read up on their remote then .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well , I use it very regularly , the action . I re I use it {vocalsound} quite often .
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah , but maybe you s yeah yeah , maybe y you do , but I've never heard of it in the first place . And
User Interface: Will you look {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we have to {disfmarker} well t yeah , and t and teletext is becoming outdated .
User Interface: Look at the market .
Project Manager: We just want to see what programmes are on and what time it is probably . Yeah . I don't know . I think that that's kin getting too complex for our remote .
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I don't know what you th guys think .
Marketing: Might be . Might be .
User Interface: Yeah , I {disfmarker} uh , it's {gap} {disfmarker} {gap} Sunday I always use it for the uh yeah , for the soccer uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , but do you like to have a {disfmarker} such a s stop button ? Or do you think it uh {disfmarker} I think it's a kind of uh uh very rare and special function .
User Interface: Well , uh when you uh uh {disfmarker} when you look uh {disfmarker} for example um , a couple of weeks ago I looked at the {disfmarker} for the flights , and there are a lot of flights in one page , so if if th
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay , it goes {disfmarker} Yeah , but that's kind of stuff we should do on the internet right now . That's why {vocalsound} it was uh said in the in the use in the r new requirements .
Industrial Designer: Yes , but you could put
User Interface: Yeah , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: on the z on the zap buttons you can put it to uh to uh access all the same pages .
Project Manager: Well yeah uh ,
Industrial Designer: If you have seven pages , you can go up and down .
Project Manager: lots of new televisions can store pages , you know , and then you can just skip manually through them using {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: I think we should just put one teletext button on it .
User Interface: True .
Project Manager: Then we meet uh the new requirements . we also meet the other thin y you sh you just re we have to choose for the the simple design , I guess .
User Interface: A simple {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . Um , well , what functions do we have to decide on ? Or do we {disfmarker} uh I dunno if we have t stif specifically name all the functions we n we want . We have the zap and uh the volume . Should we do m make them very big ? The the the zap button . D d
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: I think the plus and the minus button should be uh quite present ,
Project Manager: Th that's that's that's considered to be trendy also .
User Interface: But trendy , yeah .
Marketing: yep .
Project Manager: Or maybe you should place them on a {disfmarker} uh , in a special way ?
User Interface: I don't know .
Industrial Designer: Maybe we can make uh a kind of a joystick .
Project Manager: Yeah , something or uh {vocalsound} somethin special way to to zap through the {disfmarker} it has to {vocalsound} s it has to be {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah , and quick . You have to use it very quickly .
User Interface: Original . It was uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yep .
User Interface: True .
Marketing: {vocalsound} If you grab the remote , your hands should be on top of the plus .
Project Manager: Yeah , and it {disfmarker} the buttons should make it um possible to to zap through your channels in a rapid {disfmarker} at a rapid pace .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: Oh , what should we decide on then ? I think in a in a case of this simple remote control , the technical aspects which uh weren't worked out already , but it w shouldn't be a problem then .
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: No , it's o just signals uh {disfmarker} and the television d uh does the rest .
Project Manager: Yep .
User Interface: Maybe uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No , okay , but we don't have to {disfmarker} uh , when we don't want to uh control other devices , I think it makes it even more simple .
Industrial Designer: No .
User Interface: Uh maybe we {disfmarker} uh uh the batteries maybe . If you use large batteries or small batter batteries .
Project Manager: I think
Industrial Designer: The most standard batteries .
Project Manager: I think that we should use uh d
User Interface: Yeah ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think double A_ .
Project Manager: yeah , not not uh the b the watch kind
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: {gap} {disfmarker} th the most uh {disfmarker} Well , it has to be simple , and I wi
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: The most ordinary uh batteries .
Project Manager: Which are most likely to be found somewhere in the house , you know .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: Oh . How much time do we ha we have left uh ? M m m more than thirty minutes ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think about twenty minutes .
Project Manager: Uh ten twenty minutes . {vocalsound} Well , uh these these shouldn't {disfmarker}
User Interface: Early break .
Industrial Designer: But i in a way we have to be uh uh special .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah , okay . But that's that's {disfmarker} Do you uh have you have you think about tha thought about that ? How we can {disfmarker} what the extra touch can be . Do you suggest design or the shape or some gadget f f kind of feature or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Maybe th m
Project Manager: Well , it was something about how we lose them . Maybe it should be a remote control when you you clap you hands it makes some noise or some gadget kind of thing .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think that's n that's more for a for an age range or uh {vocalsound} ten to twelve or whatever . {vocalsound}
User Interface: To find him . That's maybe {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound} I don't know . I don't know .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Nah , um a lot of people like to have such kind kind of kind of gay kind of things . It w it w should be like a birthday present or something that you give someone , and it is i {gap} has something nice .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah , that's good one , yep .
Project Manager: Or maybe it w should have a big uh light that can flash or something on it ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: or maybe it should {vocalsound} {disfmarker} or an {disfmarker} or the like the the can opener . Maybe it contains some feature that you don't normally link to a remote control . I think it's very impor because we're gonna make such a basic remote control , we have to do something to make it special .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: It's gonna cost twenty five Euros .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Ye I think the can opener i is a brilliant idea actually , because television and beer is not a rare combination . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , but the {disfmarker} well , it's already been done .
User Interface: Yeah , but that's {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Nah . {vocalsound} Yeah , that's true . But {disfmarker} and I think it's gonna be uh very uh {disfmarker} it has to be sturdy or something , so maybe with with bouncing pads so that you can just throw it on the floor or something .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: {gap} it has to be used something special ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: and you really {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it has to ,
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: you know y not s people , when they buy it , they have to think , well this one lasts for a long time . We're really gonna use them . Not some thing you you throw away next week , you know .
Marketing: No , that's true .
Project Manager: So maybe uh that's i I think that's {vocalsound} when uh when we decide on these type of functions , know , basic functions , uh it's very important to find something like this . So there's a very important task for you . And maybe we can all think about it .
User Interface: Be original , yeah .
Project Manager: Uh , also for you maybe , when t you {disfmarker} it's very nice when you can be entra when you can be trendy , and and uh and al as in a friend {disfmarker} use friendly as well , you know .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . And use friendly , yeah .
Project Manager: So big buttons , flashy design , and maybe some kind of gadget kind of thing .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
User Interface: Must brain-storm .
Marketing: Yeah , a swapable front or whatever .
Project Manager: Yeah , or just different colours would be uh {disfmarker} I don't know if people also wanna spend more money on fronts for their uh remote control .
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: For the remote control . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It could be be {disfmarker} Yeah , you never know , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Why not ?
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: More money for us .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But it {disfmarker} and I think we have to make it quite big .
User Interface: Yeah . Quite big . Yeah , you think ?
Project Manager: Yeah ,
Marketing: Yes , definitely , definitely .
Project Manager: {gap} people {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That's to be uh a formed for your hand .
Project Manager: So , and and also because uh it is expensive . If you want it to be something , you know , it's ha doesn't have much functions {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: want to be {disfmarker} you don't want to get it l make it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yes , it {disfmarker} it it should be f {vocalsound} be visible nearly anywhere in the room . As I uh as I said during my presentation , fifty percent uh o
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . And shou and should ni look nice when you put it on a table . I I think you m might wanna put it uh {vocalsound}
User Interface: A standard or something .
Project Manager: {disfmarker} yeah , that it it it it stands up . Yeah , you have to put it on its {disfmarker} So it's like a vase or uh something you put on a table .
Marketing: Yeah . A face ?
Project Manager: {gap} no no , {gap} put stuff inside it . But , it's like like a statue or something {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Or uh yeah , yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: More like a joystick then .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah , I see what you mean , yep .
User Interface: It's like you have uh four phones . Something like that .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah , but {disfmarker} yeah , but you also can put it somewhere near the window in {disfmarker}
Marketing: If you do that , but I don't know if that's possible within the production cost of twelve and a half Euros .
Project Manager: That it's it's fashionable .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} I {gap} I don't {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I in in the base we could like make uh a button , and if you push it , the remote control itself s makes noise .
Project Manager: Oh , yeah .
Marketing: That's probably stupid , but uh as I found here uh , fifty percent , was it fifty ?
Industrial Designer: But that's that's fun for the first time , and then the second {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh fifty percent fifty percent often loses remote control .
Project Manager: Yeah , but but when you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} when it gets lost , how can you press the button to make it {disfmarker}
Marketing: No uh , of the base the the the the the the the thing you put it in .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh , okay .
User Interface: On the television .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh , that's kind of nice .
User Interface: Oh , like this .
Marketing: If an {disfmarker} a button in in that uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And then also you don't even need batteries , because you can make it uh chargeable . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Or you can {disfmarker}
User Interface: A char {vocalsound} chargeable . Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , you can ma make rechargeable one , yeah . Why not .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , that w yeah , but {disfmarker} yeah , the pro No , well I think that it might be t p Well , nee but we don't {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: Why not .
Project Manager: Maybe you , but {vocalsound} we don't know much about production cost , but when you {disfmarker} you can imagine that when you spend twenty five Euros on a remote control and it's a basic remote control , then the then the money {disfmarker} there must be money to spend on that kind of st you know , {gap} rechargeable units .
Industrial Designer: With recharger .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It should only cost twelve and a half Euros , of course . Aye ?
Project Manager: Yeah , but we would d ma we'd do it in Taiwan and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So , it's not gonna be that expen
User Interface: Production . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh I I think it's a great idea .
User Interface: It should be possible . I think it's a good idea .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: S some kind of be I've never seen that before , and you make it uh um be uh , you see it with uh the mo the mouses nowadays .
User Interface: To make a base or something ?
Marketing: Yes . Yes , definitely . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yes , but is that handy ?
Project Manager: Well , I {disfmarker} well it's really ch you can recharge it , so you ha never have the battery problem . That's one {gap} .
User Interface: It's it's it's it's
Project Manager: And uh you can always find your remote control up {disfmarker}
User Interface: it's not the purpose to be handy , it's
Industrial Designer: But but remote controls remote controls nowadays can can last uh two years , three years , with with t two batteries .
Project Manager: Uh , okay . Well , maybe yeah , you could {disfmarker} when that's {disfmarker} when it's too costly , you could probably skip the recharger ,
Industrial Designer: And then you {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but you will {disfmarker} you do need uh also an {disfmarker} uh , also you would need a battery in the the base unit as well , you know . Does it makes it kinda {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes . Or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well y you you could connect that to two hundred to twenty volts , of course .
User Interface: Mm . Yeah , but that's not {disfmarker} it's ugly , I think .
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah . Okay . Yeah .
Marketing: I don't know .
Project Manager: Yeah , but then it's very easy to make it also a rechargeab I don't think that is gonna cost much to make it also a recharge function in it .
User Interface: No .
Marketing: On the other hand , if you don't do it , we can also make a nice bay . I mean , it looks trendy and still {vocalsound} still put a bleep function in it ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: but um I think the bay is definitely uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think it's a good idea . And make it , you know , we we um {disfmarker} Well , we uh {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it isn't a t a most uh costly uh remote control . We can save on the on the functions . We just {vocalsound} put some simple button in , make it big and sturdy , nothing more , and just make s sure there's some noise that it can make , or probably some kind of cheap light thing around it or that it uh that it lights up ,
Marketing: Sure , why not . Yep .
Project Manager: it's also nice . And if you put it away , I think it's uh w we have to {disfmarker} we uh {disfmarker} that's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: it's not a easy market .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: We have to something special . And for twenty five Euros people want something remote c special from your mote control ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: True .
Project Manager: and we can't deliver that in r with uh regards to the functions ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Definitely .
Project Manager: because we aren't gonna put {disfmarker}
Marketing: With eye candy , ear candy , whatever . Yeah , definitely .
Project Manager: Yeah . And then uh when make it , you know , nice looking shape and this {gap} {disfmarker} and then you also you got the stand-up thing . Yeah . I think I think it's a good idea . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , it must be must be a gadget to have .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Definitely , yeah .
Project Manager: Oh , if it {disfmarker} let's {disfmarker} well , we will see what's possible concerning the the costs , and if it's possible we'll do that . And we even try to save up on other stuff to make sure we can do such a thing .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: And the first thing we {disfmarker} the most likeable thing to to n to skip is then probably the recharge function or something . If that's too expensive , we won't do that .
User Interface: Yeah , we c
Project Manager: But it would be nice .
Marketing: {vocalsound} It would be nice , yes .
Project Manager: It's the idea . I know that batteries last long nowadays . And and what people just think about , well , I'll never have to buy any r batteries again , so y b because it's very annoying when your battery is empty . And you know then when you haven't batteries around , and probably for two weeks , your remo {gap} {disfmarker} I've experienced that that {disfmarker}
Marketing: Most televisions break down before the battery pack is empty , so {vocalsound} yes .
Project Manager: Yeah , okay . So , easy functions . Well , we will we will {disfmarker} I think we'll work that out , zapping , numbers on it , bi
User Interface: Or just give a beep when the battery's out or uh down .
Project Manager: Yeah . But it's also annoying .
Marketing: Yeah , why not .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} 'cause as long as it stays {disfmarker} as it ke keeps working , you're not very motivated to do something about it .
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: Yeah . {gap} true .
Project Manager: Then it beeps all the time and {gap} .
Marketing: No , that's true .
Project Manager: You don't want to have {disfmarker} ever have those problems , and you won't have if if you have the rechargeable {gap} . And you don't have to use the unit , you can also put it on the side if people don't like it . Uh , i i in the in the ma
Marketing: Why not .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But you pay for it .
Project Manager: Yeah , but it w I mean , if if they pay for it because they think , oh , that's a great idea , I'm gonna use it . And when it , you know , when time goes by and they think , well , I'll never put him in the recharger , I think last long enough , then they put it on side and they can use it now and then . Then when they look {disfmarker} get m I I I know for sure that everybody who buys this remote control , within a couple of months of {disfmarker} they will be in the situation that they they're seeking for the remote control , they wanna see something quick and uh just push the button and th uh ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I think it's brilliant .
Marketing: Bleep bleep bleep , oh there it is , yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , I've never {disfmarker} it's so simple , but I've never seen it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: M maybe we should really {vocalsound} do this .
User Interface: And you can leave it just there .
Marketing: No . Nearly .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound} Okay now , well , how much time have we got left ? These clocks aren't uh synched .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh , now I've put uh {disfmarker} well , {gap} it is twenty p
User Interface: Yeah , I'll {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , so we have ten minutes or something ?
Marketing: Something like that , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , but we're uh we're done . I think .
User Interface: Uh fifteen minutes .
Project Manager: We've decided on the functions . Well , there is some {disfmarker} oh . There is a closing sheet . We have lunch break , and then we have thirty minutes of individual work .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh .
Project Manager: Oh {vocalsound} okay , I'll make sure {disfmarker} I'll {disfmarker} I had some problems with uh the digitising the the first minutes , the the s the next minutes won't be a problem , but I'll try to make sure the first one will be in the folder too , but maybe it won't work , but you'll see . I think these are more important than the first ones , so {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} We'll see .
User Interface: Can you make an uh uh a part of f folder for the minutes maybe ?
Project Manager: {gap} .
User Interface: That not not everything in one one uh folder .
Marketing: Maarten , five minutes .
Project Manager: Oh , five minutes . Yeah , because uh I I d I did uh {disfmarker} the first minutes I did were were were a bit scratchy , you know . Then I did a s second one with a nicer layout , which I could uh , know , use for the other ones {gap} well , but uh I d think uh I forgot to do {disfmarker} put done under the first one , and when you go write a second uh it's get {disfmarker} it's not working {vocalsound} when you try to write second uh paper or something .
User Interface: Yeah . Maybe .
Marketing: No , that's true uh , yeah .
Project Manager: And then you {disfmarker} {gap} {disfmarker} you had to overwrite it or someth I don't know . Becau I d uh , it was not my uh pen .
Marketing: Should we by the way draw um
Project Manager: {gap} this kind of looks you like .
Marketing: on our nice whiteboard , um a little uh idea of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Of the shape .
Marketing: yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , probably , it would be nice .
User Interface: Or the sh
Marketing: I dunno . Has anyone got um {vocalsound} a little bit detailed ideas about the shape ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Do you get an idea of the shape ?
Marketing: I don't , for one .
Industrial Designer: Maybe like this pen .
Marketing: A bit bigger I guess , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No , bigger .
User Interface: A little bit bigger , yeah but {disfmarker}
Marketing: The shape is nice , it's um something different , and we want we want that .
Industrial Designer: It has to feel nice in your hand .
Project Manager: Well , I I {vocalsound} I have to say , I have this uh can opening remote control in my head most of all ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: or I think some {disfmarker} maybe we should {disfmarker} no , that will be too costly .
User Interface: Oh , uh look {disfmarker} uh look at the pictures .
Project Manager: We shou we could also , that was a {disfmarker} would also be an idea , but I don't think it {disfmarker} I don't know if it exists already , you should like make Alessi or something design it .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay , yeah .
Project Manager: That would also be nice . But that's gonna {disfmarker} then you c then you don't
Marketing: Yeah , but {vocalsound} twelve and a half Euros ? Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , but then you don't have t yeah it {disfmarker} that's not something i that's in the production cost {disfmarker} {gap} a one {disfmarker} it's a one time , you know {disfmarker} s was {disfmarker} it's a single cost .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , m but but then you can {disfmarker} nah , I don't thin I think that it would be more expensive , because I've bought the Alessi stuff more often and even small pencil holders or something are more expensive .
Marketing: Yeah , that's true .
Project Manager: Would be a nice idea though . I don't know . I think it uh has to be a r {gap} it has to have round forms or something . Like something like that or so or so
Marketing: Something like that is very ergonomic .
Project Manager: And on th and then uh s a base unit underneath it . It's also round .
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Put it in there uh {gap} wire on it .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Maybe uh , I don't know , some some lights , a big but well . {gap}
User Interface: Yeah , flash lights at the side . At the side , or something like that .
Project Manager: Volume and programme , yeah .
Marketing: Yes , volume and programme should be there I guess , because you hands wi uh y your hands will be in the smaller part .
Project Manager: And some of the extra funct Some of the extra functions over here . Numbers .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , and the numbers on top , I guess .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: And and lights ? How we're g well , maybe uh s a ring of {disfmarker} no , no , you have to {gap} {disfmarker} Maybe on the side of it .
Marketing: Maybe ro roun rounds
User Interface: Yeah , side of it .
Marketing: uh uh l sorry .
Project Manager: Along the side uh strip of {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: Just two LEDs or something on the side . Yeah .
Marketing: Maybe lights also around the volume and the p the plus minus programme buttons . {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , but I also meant the the blinking li w you know , the ones that also blink when you try to uh uh locate your remote .
Marketing: Oh . Okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Well , theys have to be {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , uh probably at the side . You know look at the front , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah , yeah . Exactly . When you you see it from the side , then it would look just {gap} like that . And then you have a strip of uh lights or something
User Interface: Yeah , exactly , and then there is {disfmarker} yeah . Yeah , something like that , yeah .
Marketing: Okay , yeah .
Project Manager: Well , uh I think it's nice , for one thing . {gap} maybe put something on top of it {vocalsound} or , you know , like that's {disfmarker} looks funny .
User Interface: {vocalsound} No . {vocalsound} No .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I don't know . Or some bump .
Marketing: I think I think that'll be too big tha too big then .
Project Manager: Maybe some {disfmarker} Yeah ?
User Interface: Bumper or something .
Project Manager: We'll have to think about it . I think we're we're done .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes , we are .
Project Manager: We can save this one .
User Interface: Lunch break .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Alright . Yes , I guess it's lunch time .
User Interface: Okay then .
Project Manager: Mm mm . {gap}
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I don't know .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Half and hour ?
User Interface: Okay , five {gap} uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I thought our next uh next individual round was half an hour .
Project Manager: Yeah , that was what uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't know about the lunch break .
Project Manager: Mm , we'll hear about it .
Marketing: Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh {gap} . {gap} . {vocalsound} | |
doc_165 | Project Manager: Right , so start of the first meeting .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh . Right , so agenda of the first meeting . Where we uh {disfmarker} We have twenty five minutes for this meeting .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: We uh are to get acquainted . So does everyone want to say who they are ? {gap} that seem sensible ?
Marketing: Yeah . I'm Robin . I'm the Marketing Manager .
User Interface: I'm Louisa . I'm the User Interface Designer .
Industrial Designer: I'm Nick . I am the Industrial Designer .
Project Manager: And I'm Alastair and I'm the project leader . {vocalsound} Alright okay , so tool training . Um . {vocalsound} Project plan . So does anyone have any uh thoughts as to the tool training that uh is required ?
Industrial Designer: Tool training
User Interface: I'm not exactly sure what you mean by tool training .
Project Manager: Neither am I {gap} .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh I see , so we shouldn't really be {disfmarker} Oh right okay , so . So we have the project team , which is to um {vocalsound} basically to come up with a new r remote control device .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Uh we have uh {disfmarker} the starting base was the original {vocalsound} which has been in existence now for a period of time . And uh our idea is to uh to make the new remote control device uh more user friendly than the previous one , and to {vocalsound} to be trendier , to be with it , and therefore to uh to get a bigger market share and bigger audience .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: So um {vocalsound} method of doing this is uh split up as you can see into uh {vocalsound} the functional design , the conceptional design , and the detailed design . So um {vocalsound} in each of these uh phases we'll uh basically be handing over to yourselves , the designers of this uh this device .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: And uh having uh meetings so that we can uh during the course of the day um come up with a better better inst implement than we had before . And therefore um have a successful uh conclusion to the day . Um and you'll be doing uh various designs uh throughout the day to meet this end .
Marketing: Mm-hmm , okay .
Project Manager: So we've got tool training . Try out whiteboard . Uh . {vocalsound} So we will um .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Right so everyone's to uh supposedly uh draw their favourite animal over on the white board over there . I guess this is uh make sure the whiteboard works . So uh I don't know who wishes to go first .
Industrial Designer: Okay {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Do you wish to go f Have a first bash at uh whatever .
User Interface: I don't mind . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I dunno . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um .
Project Manager: Ah uh . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Let's see .
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: Good job I got pockets today .
Project Manager: But now you you uh you'll move out from the microphone and the camera .
Marketing: Your microphone's just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I take it that {disfmarker}
User Interface: Are we supposed to do this right now , do you think , or ?
Project Manager: I would {vocalsound} I would guess so . Or {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . I don't know .
Industrial Designer: You've lost uh your microphone there .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Technical problems .
User Interface: Oh . Right here we go .
Project Manager: I mean you designers are meant to come up with these sort of things .
Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay . I think that I would have to say that my favourite animal is the cat . Little smiley cat there . Um and this would be because they're very independent , uh they're very intelligent , compared to dogs maybe .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um {vocalsound} and they can be very very affectionate . Some people don't think so but I know very affectionate cats . Um . Um and they can look after themselves .
Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Next . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay , yeah . I'll I'll {disfmarker}
User Interface: Shall I rub that out , actually ?
Project Manager: I don't see as there's any need to . There's plenty of space .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: I mean whatever . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: We can have have a whole menagerie . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Exactly .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Shall I see if I can get across without just tangling everything . Okay .
Project Manager: We've had more time to prepare over this side ,
Industrial Designer: There's one .
Project Manager: so we've all stuck our bits and pieces in our pockets . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Didn't think of that .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: 'Kay uh
Project Manager: The three pens are underneath .
Industrial Designer: pens are over here . I'll try the red pen . Okay . Um . {vocalsound} I'm gonna go for the bear which I'm {gap} be able to draw very well ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You get marks for artistic impression . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but I'll have a bash at it .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ooh ooh {gap} I lost it there . I think I've just knocked the microphone . {vocalsound} Um .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So you're just doing the face . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We'll g then we'll go for a a s small small bear {gap} .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} and I like my animal that looks nothing like a bear because um I dunno maybe because there's so many cartoon characters made up after the bear like the jungle book characters and stuff like that .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Great . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Right . Hello . Um I'm gonna go for the dog , and I'm gonna draw one badly as well . Uh . {gap} looks like it's going to be a dachshund or something .
User Interface: That's quite good . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Right . There's my dog . Um {vocalsound} I like dogs because they're very loyal . And they're always happy , so whenever whenever you're feeling sort of a bit a bit down or tired , they're always coming up and they're always um quite excited . So um you can always have a lot of fun with a dog . And they're also good for exercise as well . You can sorta get out and they they sorta never get tired . And and when they're tired they're quite cute as well , so . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay , that's why I like dogs .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Right , um . {vocalsound} Well I've not actually had too many pets uh over my uh time 'cause to be honest with you uh {gap} I'm not too keen on them anyway . Not to worry . So what my daughters have got at the moment is they've got uh a few fish and so hopefully um won't prove too difficult to draw . Uh {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: As you can see that my artist artistic work is useless as well .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Anyway um . {vocalsound} And uh one of the best uh things about fish is that they don't really take uh too much looking after because uh with most of the animals if you're going away on holiday or whatever , you've gotta spend money or get a friend or whatever to look after them for you . Whereas if you got fish , you just gotta put the food in a a a dripper feed which feeds them over the uh couple of weeks that you're away and uh change the water every couple of months , and buy in a few plants , so . Other than the fact that they keep dying ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: uh fish are uh {vocalsound} are not are are are reasonable pets in that uh they're low maintenance .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Great .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Right . Okay , uh if we're still all with us . Right okay , so . Work has been done on uh this uh project where by um twenty five Euros is uh the uh expected uh selling price . That information has come from our marketing manager here . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: So we're looking to sell internationally , not just in Europe . We're looking at um having our production costs limited to uh twelve and an half Euro per unit . And therefore making a profit margin of uh {disfmarker} well not actually a profit margin it's uh {disfmarker} because obviously you're gonna have overheads and various other costs to uh take uh from uh from that to give you your profit margin per unit . And so depending what the uh the overhead uh costs are will determine uh how many units we're uh looking to sell or projecting to sell at this point in time .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: So um {disfmarker} Experience with remote control , first ideas . New remote . So I guess we're looking at um having a discussion at this point in time to help uh you um folks design our our new model as it were .
Industrial Designer: Yes . {gap}
Project Manager: So uh any any thoughts ?
Industrial Designer: Um I {gap} with some remote controls the buttons were a little small so they're quite hard to press so maybe we make something with uh easy to press buttons . As that is the main function .
Project Manager: Okay , so so basically we're looking for some um {disfmarker} we're looking for a device that is um robust and and therefore uh won't get damaged too easily .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: Um we're looking for a device that is uh {disfmarker} What was the other things you said there ?
Industrial Designer: Um sort of easy to use so the buttons are accessible .
Project Manager: Easy to use . Use .
Industrial Designer: {gap} is easy to use and see .
Project Manager: And see .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: Okay . Uh .
User Interface: Can I just check ? {vocalsound} Is this just a television remote ? Because a lot of um systems are kind of T_V_ video combined now , or T_V_ D_V_D_ combined .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And one of the most annoying things is having like five remotes in the house . So if you've got a combined system , it could be a combined remote .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Or is it just a television that we're supposed to be doing ?
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Oh I w um basically I'll get back to you on that .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: But it seems to me sensible ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: 'cause {disfmarker} as you rightly said , there's nothing more annoying than having three or four devices littered about the uh about the room .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: And uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So a device for for all remotes .
Industrial Designer: {gap} Sorry , you go . You go .
Marketing: I've Okay . Yeah . Um one of the things um we found from the market research is that people often get confused by the number of buttons on them as well . 'Cause there's quite often lots and lots . And um sometimes uh they sort of {disfmarker} remote controls defeat their own purpose because you're sat in the chair and the remote is somewhere else in the room . So {disfmarker} whereas in the past you'd have to get up to change the channel , now you have to get up to sort of pick up the remote . So so I don't we need to sort of maybe think about how um we could maybe uh develop a remote control which moves around the room .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Comes to your whistle . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hmm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's that's maybe something for the future when you can talk to your television , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But is it {disfmarker} in a sense it's r um mutually exclusive . You can't have both the th the one device and then have few buttons on it to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: 'cause you want you want simplicity as well , you want any idiot to be able to use it . Whilst at the same time you want , as you rightly said , one remote for all .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: And so these are probably mutually exclusive options
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: that uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Hmm you could argue that experience of using devices and similar devices as people get more and more used to using remotes , therefore they're more {gap} with handling them ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: therefore you can make them more complicated as time goes on .
Industrial Designer: Maybe we could um have better instructions with the remote . Or are we just doing the design of the remote control itself , or sort of the instructions that would come with it ?
Project Manager: {gap} Better instructions .
Marketing: Yeah . I mean we've done some research um about sort of you know what the cutting edge sort of hand held devices are , and a lot of them sort of use you know they're like they're like mini laptops .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So it's possible that we could devise a system where where you're you're basically sort of holding a a miniature computer which is controlling all your your sort of your television , your stereo , and where {disfmarker} you know if you buy a new thing then it sort of {disfmarker} you can link it to that as well , maybe .
Project Manager: Okay . Um well we've got five minutes before the end of the meeting . So uh we have to uh start winding up . Um is there {disfmarker} Next meeting in thirty minutes .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: So um {disfmarker} Right , so we've got I_D_ the {disfmarker} Come on , where's my {disfmarker}
Marketing: If you just click return it should be okay . It'll get rid of the message .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Or not . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: If you hit just hit return and it should get rid of the message .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh there we go .
Marketing: Oh you've got {gap} . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's what I was looking for . Right . So we've got function {disfmarker} Oh what happened to the {disfmarker}
User Interface: I think that might be back to the start . Um if you grab the kind of uh slide to the left and pull it down ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {gap} slide four {gap}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Right . Right . {vocalsound} Sorry about that .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , so we've got um the working design for I_D_ . For U_I_D_ the technical functions design . Marketing , the user requirement specification . Specific instructions will be sent to you by your person by your personal coach . So . Are we all clear what objectives we're looking to meet in the next thirty minutes ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And I guess I'll try and write up some minutes of uh this meeting to uh to give it to you for the next meeting .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay , yes .
User Interface: I'm not exactly clear on what we're designing the rem remote for .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Is this a mun multi-functional one or do we decide that ourselves as we go away and work on it ?
Industrial Designer: I think you just said at the start it was a television remote control ,
Project Manager: Television remote control .
Industrial Designer: so maybe we should just stick to that unless we get told otherwise .
User Interface: Right .
Project Manager: That's true , 'cause during during the course of our day we might make decisions based on information or meetings that would change {vocalsound} where we're going .
Marketing: Okay cool .
Project Manager: But at this point in time I think you're right that uh {disfmarker} shall we make it just a T_V_ . Okay ? So we will depart .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We will stay here and uh and break off . And I'll do minutes and and we'll see you in half and hour .
Industrial Designer: Okay , that's great .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Okay cheers .
Project Manager: Okay . Right s | |
doc_166 | Project Manager: Okay , welcome everyone to our next meeting . I'm busy writing and busy leading the meeting , but um I've prepared a little presentation once again um or at least an agenda I think uh the biggest part of the presentation will be uh on your side . Um we are here at the conceptual design meeting , which is hereby opened . Um once again I will try to uh write some minutes which I just from the previous meeting uh placed inside our project folder , which was quite some typing . Um today we once again have uh three presentations , if I'm right , and after that we will take a decision on the remote control concepts . And just as the last time we have forty minutes to accomplish that . Okay , well
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'd say let's start with the first presentation .
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Um in the same order as last time ?
Industrial Designer: W sure .
User Interface: Mm . Alright .
Project Manager: Okay . Well , take it away .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound} Okay uh welcome you all .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Components design , um {vocalsound} uh first of all uh I would like to uh uh accommodate some of those uh things I uh uh {disfmarker} elaborate some of the things I did . I I elaborated on the concept . What should be um uh said about uh the components , uh its properties and what kind of materials should we use to uh to make uh one of those r remote controls . Uh well first of all I've uh d subtracted some of the components that is that are used uh are w w um {vocalsound} you know from what uh the remote control's formed . Uh first of all , the case , the case , the surrounding of the of the the remote control . {vocalsound} I would like to uh give you an idea of uh how I thought about .
Marketing: Don't destroy my giraffe .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Giraffe's gone now .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay um the case was is made from rubber , I suppose . There's one of the {disfmarker} because when you use a remote control a lot of people uh will uh will uh drop their remote control
Marketing: Drop it .
User Interface: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: and they break uh becau the uh titanium was also an option . But uh it's a very expensive material . Uh rubber is , I think , uh the best suitable uh material uh to use uh for our uh for our remote control . Um it's poss it's also possible to uh create fancy colours with rubber . Uh rubber l makes it easy to uh to to {disfmarker} it lets lets itself colour . Uh titanium uh you have to paint it and with that uh it's possible to scratch it or uh yeah make it ugly . Uh rubber uh the total uh piece of rubber that's sor uh that's that's used uh to make the case is uh the same colour , so if you scratch it it's still the same colour , perhaps uh it's a little bit damaged . But it's a very strong material . Um {vocalsound} I h I had an idea single covered uh curved , sorry , single curved .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh so it's t two dimensional . I think it's uh it's best to draw oh
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a colour . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: green .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Bright colour . Fancy colour . Forward .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} New . Blank . Okay .
Marketing: You have to go t
Industrial Designer: Let's make it uh black . Okay . I thought of an idea like this . Oh {gap} that . {vocalsound} Um delete . Blank . Okay . So it also looks nice when it's on your table .
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: So you get uh it doesn't lay flat down on the table , but it's c it's stands .
Marketing: Oh it's a side view .
Industrial Designer: Side view yes it's side view so uh I I'm not technically good at th three D_ modelling ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um uh it's just an idea I had so it's uh it's very uh so its also looks nice when it's on the table . Um the graphical user interface and the buttons , uh we also thought about that already . Uh I thought about uh the L_C_D_ touch screen , which is uh is easy to clean too . One of the great uh advantages of the L_C_D_ screen you just use some {gap} or uh another uh cleaning uh uh cl some cleaning stuff .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And um it should be made of strong plastic and it should be bright . Well I already uh s uh explained some properties of that material and I think uh well we also we almost concluded about that uh this should uh be uh our uh button component .
Marketing: True .
Industrial Designer: So uh uh that's all about uh the buttons . Uh the batteries , uh we also thought about that already , uh will be chargeable with uh uh an option for a mount station so you can uh put the uh {vocalsound} the remote control in a mount station so its charges itself up instead of uh plugging it in or something like that . Questions , {gap} ?
User Interface: No . {vocalsound}
Marketing: No no no no no . Just looking .
Industrial Designer: And they should be long lasting , not uh not be empty uh in about uh two minutes or uh thirty minutes or forty minutes of use . And next step is the chip uh th the component that's uh makes or transmits the signal to the television . Uh there was an option to use s a rather simple chip but I think uh because uh of our uh highly uh requiring uh requirements , there should be an advanced chip in it
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: with uh also the ability to uh facilitate speaker speech recognition uh which unfortunately is still in a test phase , so uh there should be some more uh investigation on that side . Uh my personal preferences uh I also overheard in the last meeting that there shou we should use uh our own business colours . That was correct , wasn't it ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Okay . I think they are rather boring for um for use with rubber .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well , business colours I thought it was the the slogan and uh the corporate image , so yeah , it needs colour ,
Industrial Designer: Okay they should be m sh they should be in mind ,
Project Manager: but I don't think you have to make the entire thing in the corporate colour . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: wasn't it ? Okay so it d it doesn't says uh to uh have the slogan ?
Project Manager: It must be recognisable .
Industrial Designer: Okay okay . Well that's possible of course .
User Interface: You can put the R_ and R_ . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We could make a little R_ and R_ {gap} on the top of the machine . Uh so they are {vocalsound} pretty boring , I suggest , because just the availability with rubber to make fantastic colours uh and also in a lot of possible colours , so it's possible to make very uh fancy uh remote controls which peopl uh who people in which people will find they're uh interesting . And uh will buy uh {vocalsound} them faster when they look at the same old grey or black uh colours . Uh s as I said uh before rubber is uh is impossible to damage severely imp instead of uh of course you can break it when you you when you break it in s for example with a pair of scissors or something like that , but i if you drop it it's not uh broken uh right away s instead of using uh plastic , hard plastic or uh titanium . And I personally liked uh the single curved uh remote control , because it yeah it makes sense .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay . Well that's all about my uh my findings .
User Interface: Alright .
Project Manager: Okay , thank you .
User Interface: I will go next .
Marketing: Mm mm mm . Next .
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Alright so
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I thought a little bit about the interface . Uh how it should look . And uh {vocalsound} uh we uh determined that will not be no buttons , but only an L_C_D_ screen , so I had to uh look on that . And the design is therefore based on what we just uh uh thought of . Uh first there are some new findings and new technology for speech recognition . And this is that uh um uh uh you you ask you give a question through through the device and it answers you . And they already uh put this in an in a coffee maker . And so that it you say uh good morning , uh coffee maker , and it says t says to you back good morning Joe or what's your name .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: This uh and there's an easy way to uh program that uh you say record into the device into the speaker and then you say the question and three seconds later you say the answer and then when you say the question it gives you the answer . Um perhaps it's useful ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: perhaps for because people um lose the remote ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: they can yell uh remote where are you and {gap} calls or something .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's true .
User Interface: And perhaps we could uh implement that .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: And then I have to go out of the presentation because I tried to make some kind of a a idea of how it should look like
Industrial Designer: Oh my God . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: but I can't draw , so uh don't {vocalsound} make too much of it {vocalsound} . I tried to uh the L_C_D_ screen I tried to sort of to draw {gap} . I thought uh at least uh the icon for the volume . I don't know if there is an icon for the program , but
Industrial Designer: Not just a P_ .
User Interface: yeah .
Marketing: P_ yeah , just a P_ .
User Interface: So uh
Industrial Designer: .. . {gap}
User Interface: and then the buttons above and uh below
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: the and the and the mute button also recognisable as an icon . Um .
Marketing: Where's where's the button for two {gap} ?
User Interface: I forgot that one . {vocalsound} I thought I forgot something ,
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: but uh {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And uh and uh the numbers , that should be a bit larger I think it's not really on scale and and so forth .
Industrial Designer: Ah .
Marketing: Doesn't matter .
User Interface: Um an options button . And I thought the the button for teletext apar uh apart because it's not really options , I think . It's uh options is the settings of the remote and of the T_V_ and that kind of uh thing .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: No .
User Interface: So could call it settings or something .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
User Interface: But this is a bit uh how I thought it . And uh the L_C_D_ uh somewhere on the remote . Perhaps we could be more curvy the remote perhaps should , so that it's better in your hand or something uh .
Industrial Designer: Oh okay ,
User Interface: But uh and and uh a microph microphone for the speech uh recognition if we want to implement that .
Industrial Designer: yeah .
User Interface: Uh and then uh if you press the op options button , now we have an example of and then you should get the other options with what what you could do and that you could do with something like this this .
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah , {gap} .
User Interface: And uh it's also uh I thought think we discussed uh earlier that uh older people don't really want to use uh these extra settings . And older people a also don't really want to use this uh th this kind of option menus . So they want to u use one button and then something happens , and not choose with uh this kind of uh {disfmarker} And you could put in a an a really s little scrolling device on the side of your uh remote ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: so you could scroll scroll uh across these uh things .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Okay .
User Interface: That's an option . And that was my uh finding dinge .
Project Manager: Thanks .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Now our third
Industrial Designer: Go Danny , go Danny . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: team member with his presentation .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay , I'm going to tell you something about a trend watching . The trends from the past years , what the people like , what the youngsters like , what the elderly people liked about shapes , colours , material and stuff . 'Kay . The method I used was {disfmarker} Like I told I watched the trends from the past years about colours , shapes , material they wanted uh from elderly and young people . So we can keep that in mind for designing f uh the device itself . Findings I made . The most important thing people liked last year was that the remote control should be look look fancy . The second important thing that w should be if inv in innov innovative , okay , like the L_C_D_ screen that's {vocalsound} quite innovative so that should be great meeting for this . And the third thing is it should be easy to use . I think with only one menu , four button , channel , volume , it should also be enough for easy to use . The personal preferences for the young people , they liked fruity colours like uh banana yellow , uh strawberry red and stuff .
Industrial Designer: Fruity ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Grass green .
Industrial Designer: Fruity . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . Like that . The round shapes , and soft material m materials like the rubber .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Okay .
Marketing: It should be soft uh i it should feeling spongy or s Sponge Bob like things .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Let's build it into a sponge .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Th Elderly people like au colours which y are being seen in autumn like um woods um dark brown , red , deep reds and stuff . They liked square shapes with round edges . And hard materials like wood , um titanium . They those kind of materials they liked . This is a bit like the young peoples like the fruity colours , innovative , all the colours you see , the blue , the red , the white , the yellow , that stuff . And then I th I I personally thought the front side of the shape should be something for the youngsters like like
Project Manager: Oh y {vocalsound}
Marketing: this or something . It's it's a bit like a banana . And the colour should be yellow , or something .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: And for the elderly people just plain old . Because we decided to have two kind of remotes , two designs , or was it two colours ?
User Interface: It was one remote , I think ,
Marketing: Different colours , yeah .
User Interface: different colours .
Marketing: We should decide whether it's going to be with round shapes . I think like my colleague , you said , is that's e better , or for the elderly people something like like the iPod or something , with round squares . Simple but
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: easy to use .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} So that's it .
Project Manager: So for the older people , a more traditional uh form .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: That is my {disfmarker} Yeah , like the older o older colours I can maybe {disfmarker}
User Interface: You could you could uh change the colours , that was also the idea . I don't know which shape you should should take ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: but .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Colours th the elderly people {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , I guess changing colours will be easier than changing uh
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Changing just the shape of the uh remote control ?
Project Manager: the shape of it .
User Interface: Perhaps you could find something in the middle . Round but square . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , s
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: round corners , but s but square , yeah .
Project Manager: But maybe then both groups won't buy it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh i i if you do it uh uh square , with round corners but a little uh in the middle of it uh i Do you know what I mean ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah I know what you mean , kind of like a {gap} . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} wait , like {vocalsound} like this {vocalsound} uh a bit .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: So it's a bit square , but it's also a bit uh round .
Industrial Designer: Kinda like a beer glass . {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: So but then {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I know what you mean .
User Interface: Same sides . {vocalsound} But that's uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's also easy to to have {vocalsound} to to put in your hand .
User Interface: Yeah but that's also how other remotes are shaped , so that's uh {disfmarker} But perhaps that's a good thing ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: so that's easy to use . People know the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Will recognise that's as a remote control .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} Look something like that {gap} . Autumn colours like red , brown .
Industrial Designer: Uh when I saw your d Oh .
Marketing: They liked the wood a lot .
Industrial Designer: Huh .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: So maybe we could give it like wooden loo look look or something in that colour .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , kinda like old cars , uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: And a bit bit old school style renaissance , medieval kind of things .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Swords . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Let's put it all together .
Marketing: Those kind of {disfmarker} Yeah , those kind of things . So you see the big difference between the young people ? Fresh , exciting .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: And the old people , old and boring .
User Interface: But that's easily to do with the colour , I think .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So {disfmarker} Sorry ?
User Interface: That's easy to do with the colours , I think .
Marketing: Yeah I think it's it's easier to do in colour than in shape .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah we think so too .
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Marketing: Because otherwise we have to {gap} get different shapes , and colour {gap} way easier than yeah the shapes . In material yeah rubber , rubber is , like I said , young people like more soft materials and spongy ones
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and the old people like {vocalsound} plain wood .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So we have to decide if we're going to use real hard rubber , or soft rubber . Or something something between that .
User Interface: Yeah think uh {disfmarker} Also in between . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Soft rubber .
Marketing: Yeah {gap} soft rubber
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: which you can you can feel in it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah I know what you {disfmarker} Um .
User Interface: I don't think you should be able to mould it ,
Marketing: Or {disfmarker}
User Interface: but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It should shouldn't be {gap} .
Marketing: No . Or or wh what's something harder . No no no but but you have to like like like a a eraser or something . That's the bit you can press it in ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: or something harder .
Industrial Designer: Uh .
User Interface: Bit like this kind of rubber . This uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , something like this , yeah .
User Interface: But it's quite hard , this .
Marketing: Yeah it's quite hard but you can press it in .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: It's feels kind s spongy .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Spongy .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: Something . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't think it's rubber .
Marketing: No . N n n
Project Manager: So we need a spongy feeling . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh did you have something about uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Are you going to invite Sponge Bob , maybe he can {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So we should first decide about shape , I think .
Industrial Designer: Ding ding .
User Interface: Which uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah I think that's the better thing to do . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Then you can fit the L_C_D_ screen in it ,
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: and can decide uh .
Industrial Designer: Um I also s uh can't help but notice {vocalsound} that you uh used an {disfmarker} you had a remote control {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and the L_C_D_ screen was uh rather small . Um .
Marketing: Yeah
User Interface: Yeah
Marketing: w I think that L_C_D_ screen should be like {disfmarker}
User Interface: it it's supposed to be bit s bit s bit
Industrial Designer: .. . This was your size ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but I think it should be larger .
Marketing: Yeah three quarter of the of the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , three quarters . So uh so you don't have to put your {disfmarker} {vocalsound} oh .
Marketing: Yeah the buttons won't get that small when the L_C_D_ screen is {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh new , blank . So uh when you get {vocalsound} this uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: Ooh {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh kinda like this .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Or should it be larger ?
Marketing: Larger I think .
Industrial Designer: Larger ? Because you want to put your hands {disfmarker}
User Interface: But if you pu
Marketing: Yeah
User Interface: Now you can put your hand there and then you won't touch the screen .
Industrial Designer: You want
Marketing: becau because you have {disfmarker}
User Interface: Perhaps that's best .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah okay , true , true , true true .
Industrial Designer: Your thumb here .
User Interface: {vocalsound} But not on the screen because {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: that's uh that's an idea .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Looks a bit like a Game Boy now . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Because when you put your f Yeah but if yo if you make the the L_C_D_ screen as large as the remote control itself , uh you'll {vocalsound} you'll always get some {disfmarker}
User Interface: You always touch it ,
Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker}
User Interface: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah yeah .
Industrial Designer: Going to be very greasy and stuff .
Marketing: But it won't get that small because you have how much ? Nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen buttons on the screen .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: One to zero , the two digit , {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah you don't want it too small . How yeah how large {disfmarker}
Marketing: You have to you have to {disfmarker} Because some fat people with d thick fingers will press three buttons at same time .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah they have thick fingers {gap} . But if you wanna make it in international , Japanese uh people got uh rather small hands
Marketing: Yeah true ,
Industrial Designer: and we got these large {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: but {disfmarker} Yeah , we have we have the zoom option , right ?
Industrial Designer: Zoom opt Ah yeah of course , yeah . You can make it larger to to uh to uh with accompanying uh greater fields to push the button .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . And we won't include a a pen , or something to point ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: hey , we we want to do it with our fingers ,
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: right ?
Industrial Designer: Your fingers , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Y you could include a pen
Industrial Designer: You don't want uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Because if you lose the pen uh if you lose the pen uh you can't use {disfmarker}
Marketing: Use a pen You you c you can lose the pen .
Project Manager: Yeah but I think people want to use a remote with with their fingers because th they're used to that
Marketing: Yeah {gap} the fingers , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah o yeah {gap} , if they think it's handy to use a pen .
Project Manager: and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Yeah I think this uh this is a good size for the screen . I don't know how how large the actual remote should be but a little bit like this , or something .
Project Manager: And maybe we have to add a tissue to remove the grease from all the fingers , huh . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah {gap} You can do {gap} whatever uh any uh cloth .
Marketing: Yeah but that that can be {gap} with plain soft tissue . Yeah ,
Project Manager: Okay well
Marketing: you can buy those at {disfmarker}
Project Manager: maybe , if I can interrupt you , maybe I should uh should show some points on which we uh should take a decision .
Industrial Designer: Sure .
Project Manager: So we can discuss these points . {gap} those points um energy question mark . How how should we uh supply the thing with energy and how {disfmarker} are we going to do it with separate docking station and then put {gap} in it . Uh chip on print and case . Those are points my uh coach advised me to discuss here , but I hope you have ideas about them .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I think energy were batteries and then uh and uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The docking station .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . So that's the the the first point .
Marketing: Maybe it's better to to include rechargeable batteries
Project Manager: We already decided that on the previous meeting .
Industrial Designer: W {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: which you can recharge through the docking station .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah . Just like with the telephone .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So if the badg the batteries are dead
Industrial Designer: I kinda like your {disfmarker}
Marketing: then you can re you can uh change them .
Industrial Designer: Yeah you got some uh some of those uh uh wireless uh mice ? Mouse . Computer mouse .
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah like those .
Industrial Designer: Kinda like those kind of batteries .
User Interface: {vocalsound} but it should be th I think normal batteries ,
Marketing: Yep . {vocalsound}
User Interface: not not like two or two uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , normal plain you {disfmarker} No normal plain batteries you can buy at the supermarket or retail shop . Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Simple rechargeable uh batteries .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . Um what was with the chip on print ?
Industrial Designer: The chip on print ? Um {disfmarker} Uh you gotta f Yeah . I think so . Chip on print with a with a {vocalsound} simple uh a sim not a simple but a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Print plate .
Industrial Designer: We also discussed that . Didn't we ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah but how did this how does that with a L_C_D_ screen ? You still have a print plate .
Industrial Designer: Uh {gap}
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah . You always have a print plate .
Industrial Designer: Beg your pardon ?
Marketing: You always have a print plate ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah sure , of course , yeah .
Marketing: right ? Always , so {disfmarker} I dunno what w what we have to decide about that .
Project Manager: Yeah well it's a good question .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It just was in there
Industrial Designer: {gap} Well uh
Project Manager: and I didn't have any information about it ,
Industrial Designer: chip on print , I think what they mean uh with the regular rubber buttons that you got , uh it's always clear for the remote control when you press uh a certain button .
Project Manager: but {disfmarker} Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: But when you got a L_C_D_ screen , with no uh with not {vocalsound} {disfmarker} the buttons are not always on the same place ,
Marketing: Yeah , okay . But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: for example if you enlarge a button , or if you got several options uh appearing on your screen , uh the co-ordinations aren't always the same .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: When you got a regular button , th the button of stand-by is always on the same place and you got on the and on the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah okay , but the p print plate of L_ L_C_D_ screen is more advanced than a normal print plate ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: so that that's not of any discussion , I think .
Project Manager: Well you need some kind of C_P_U_ , I guess .
Industrial Designer: {gap} I suppose so .
Marketing: Mm , I don't I dunno I don't think that's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It is a simple C_P_U_ but it doesn't {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah yeah okay but I d I I don't know if nor o s it's quite a simple L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: Yeah because it has to uh b
Marketing: Yeah , it's quite a simple L_C_D_ screen . I think they don't need that big of C_P_U_ .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but it the the remote control has to know whether you're in a settings menu or just uh you just want to turn up the volume .
Marketing: Yeah , okay , true true . True .
Industrial Designer: So it has to have some kind of a calculation unit or C_P_U_
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: to know uh in which state you are and uh which button you are pressing in at the right moment .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Because we're projecting projecting the buttons on the L_C_D_ screen .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: And a touch screen makes it uh possible to uh to get the co-ordination of your finger on the screen .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And the case , yeah we already discussed the case ,
User Interface: It's rubber .
Industrial Designer: we wanted to make it from rubber
User Interface: Yeah but but a hard rubber like this ?
Industrial Designer: and uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Or softer rubber or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh hard rubber I think .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: That's the easy to ha uh to to uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: It bounces back from the floor where you {vocalsound} throw it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah sure , look {vocalsound} .
Marketing: We have different colours .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah yeah this in different colours ?
Industrial Designer: D
Marketing: So the shapes is something between the square shapes with round colo corners and a round shapes ? No I don't think , I think it's more round than square . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah it's a bit . But I think it should be a bit longer , perhaps .
Marketing: So it meets I think it meets more the young people than the older people .
Project Manager: Yeah . But that's what we want , {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah . I think so too .
Marketing: Yeah , that's our target . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It's our main target .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Lower than forty years , I think
Industrial Designer: {gap} Well and how about my idea uh of making it um with one single curve ?
Marketing: it was .
Industrial Designer: So i
Marketing: Oh yeah that that {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker} I thought that was a quite good
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Because it's a gadget and you want to show it off , of course .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah you have a fancy design , then , right away .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Because it
Marketing: You can put it on your table with the L_C_D_ screen ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: you don't have to put it {disfmarker} get it in your hand , you can put it next to you
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: and then dive it in
User Interface: Yeah , that's a good idea .
Marketing: and {gap} . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It's a lot easier .
User Interface: Yeah , alright .
Industrial Designer: So , so
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: you got uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: And then {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Did you write that down ? Uh got a single curved uh rubber f uh fancy coloured {vocalsound} remote control . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: You can't you You can't oh , you c you can draw it on your paper and then load it on the
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , you can uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah but I wrote it down . {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's pretty easy but {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}
Marketing: And load it on the the user the server .
Project Manager: What about the user interface , there are also some some questions uh about the concepts I think you have some ideas on that {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah ,
Project Manager: You you showed your drawing .
User Interface: I had what I just uh I should {gap} again . I miss a few buttons , but . Well . At least uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} what we should also have on , I just remembered , um a menu to go back through the first uh {gap} if if you touch options , you can't go back to this uh right away now .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah , you have to go back . Yeah uh uh .
User Interface: This {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Isn't it better to have the sound and the general buttons horizontal ?
User Interface: I don't know .
Marketing: With the minus and the plus .
User Interface: I think it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think it's easier than {disfmarker}
User Interface: I don't know . I I thought it was uh easier to handle this way ,
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: but I don't know what they think .
Industrial Designer: Sorry ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Would you like the the buttons horizontal or v vertical ?
Marketing: For sound and channel .
User Interface: Th
Industrial Designer: Depends on the screen . If you make the screen vertical it doesn't matter . If you make it uh in a rectangle {disfmarker}
User Interface: Right well if we make it like this , I think if you
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I so it's it's it's it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: put it like this {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Square . {gap}
Marketing: I think it's it's easier to have it something like {disfmarker} Oh a button uh minus here , plus over here . A minus here , plus over here .
Industrial Designer: {gap} Oh , okay .
Marketing: And on here .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: The other buttons and on here {vocalsound} the top .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: The options and then you have something like uh the P_ over here ,
User Interface: But I think I wou
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: and the sound .
User Interface: I think that's a matter of what you're used to .
Marketing: Something uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: I think I would put a plus and a min uh here . And then the P_ in the mid in the middle and the sound uh in the middle .
Industrial Designer: Uh . {gap}
Marketing: Something like {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Sh
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Take your time . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Plus minus plus uh {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Almost . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Yeah
Marketing: minus .
User Interface: but I think when you are holding it , you could press the minus and the plus and with the other finger the minus and the plus .
Marketing: Yeah I think you're going to s you're going to use it with one thumb .
User Interface: Yeah but I think {disfmarker} Yeah I don't know . {vocalsound} Perhaps I have some examples .
Industrial Designer: W
User Interface: I don't know {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We'll leave that to the usability engineering then . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Who's the usability engineering ?
User Interface: That's me .
Marketing: She is . {gap}
User Interface: But I'm going to look if I've got some examples
Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: 'cause perhaps you should choose what's most often used .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh .
User Interface: The {disfmarker} 'Cause they can use that better .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Consistency .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Oh {gap} {disfmarker} I have that those s numbers .
User Interface: I {disfmarker} Here is our {disfmarker} here are uh
Marketing: Or a good watch .
User Interface: I don't really know .
Marketing: B
Project Manager: Everybody's searching in his data .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Channel selection . Per hour one hundred and sixty eight . Volume selection four times an hour
User Interface: Yeah but {gap} {disfmarker} But I mean if it's usually plus or min above each other or next to each other on a normal remote .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . So not how much {disfmarker} n not how often it's used , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: W what's what's usual or normal .
Marketing: Yeah , that depends on on on the remote .
User Interface: Yes I'm looking here . But here's it's below ,
Industrial Designer: Uh .
User Interface: here also , and now here's here's next to each other .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: I think it's {gap} it's a {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think {gap} because I have two televisions at home . One is horizontal , one is vertical ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah it does it doesn't really matter ,
Marketing: so it depends .
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Depends .
Industrial Designer: Uh .
User Interface: I think the the the volume was usually uh above each other , because you go higher and down .
Marketing: Yeah , lower .
User Interface: And the the pay the the the program is next to each other , because you would go further and back .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: That's how it's is usually {gap} when I look here
Marketing: True .
User Interface: that's what I see .
Industrial Designer: Okay , um . Let's cut to the chase . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's got to change .
Project Manager: Yeah well I think we have we don't have to decide about that now how where we will put the buttons
User Interface: I don't know .
Project Manager: just the
Marketing: Yeah is it is user interface .
Project Manager: concepts .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Component .
User Interface: This concept is in the actual design , but you should know where you would place a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay , well le Yeah . Interface , yeah .
User Interface: And the speech uh shall we implement that ? Or uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah well we just heard about the new uh technology , huh ?
Industrial Designer: Technologies , uh .
Marketing: Yeah I think it's it's easy for that , where are you , but then it says I'm here .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . But then you should also find a place {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Makes it possible to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: You could if you do it like this you could put it in a corner or something . You can talk into the corner .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah , a microphone , yeah .
Industrial Designer: {gap} Not even necessary ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: because a lotta {disfmarker} you can make a very sensitive microphone , so it makes it possible to uh {vocalsound} just put it arou uh underneath it or on the on the bottom of the uh remote .
Project Manager: Yeah maybe at the bottom where you can can hel hold it with you hand that there's also a microphone uh
User Interface: Yeah . But {disfmarker} Yeah , that's also {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: over there .
Industrial Designer: Right .
User Interface: So , in the middle or something .
Industrial Designer: But that's not import I think that's not im very important
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: because yeah , it doesn't matter where the microphone is .
User Interface: {gap} but you should uh decide where you want to put it .
Industrial Designer: Ah okay , sure , okay ,
User Interface: Right ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: well tha
Marketing: Um I think where it isn't seen
Industrial Designer: Underneath ? {gap} Indeed . It shouldn't be uh very uh visible .
Marketing: the most .
User Interface: You could p you could put it in a logo of the company . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Inside .
Project Manager: Yeah . Well
Industrial Designer: Yeah sure , why no
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: maybe just in the the spot you just pointed out
Marketing: I i between the round of the R_ .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: because I think it should be in a in an important position where people can see it ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: because it is the the unique uh idea of our remote , huh , the the speech control .
User Interface: Yeah . So where do you want to put it ?
Marketing: Yeah , okay .
Project Manager: Well maybe where the one hand {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah but it doesn't makes it uh any more fancy because you get to see uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah actually it does {vocalsound} because it you can you can find it better if you use it .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah
User Interface: It's a way for you to uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: bu but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh .
User Interface: So it makes more sense just 'cause other remotes don't have that .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , okay .
Project Manager: But are we talking about the button , or about the microphone ?
User Interface: About a microphone ,
Project Manager: Yeah because a microphone is very small thing ,
User Interface: there is no button .
Project Manager: but you can make it look like it's big so as its its really an important function of the remote .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I think the left s under corner should be the best .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Where isn't {disfmarker} i it isn't most in sight .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Well put it there . I don't mind . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That doesn't doesn't really matter .
Marketing: No . Actually doesn't .
Industrial Designer: Okay . So ?
User Interface: Alright . Any more uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So well uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Interface type .
Project Manager: type , supplements , anything . Yeah , well we already s discussed that , huh , the the L_C_D_
Industrial Designer: The L_C_D_ yeah ,
Project Manager: and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: uh supplements well the supplement is to {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap} I think {disfmarker} I thought the , like you said , like scroll {vocalsound} next to the remote isn't that handy .
Industrial Designer: yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . {gap}
Marketing: I think it's better to just {gap} up what you'd like to do on the screen . If you want to go back you have to back button go back ,
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: if you want to choose audio settings you press audio settings and it goes to that s sub-menu .
Industrial Designer: Hey ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um yeah . Yeah
Industrial Designer: {gap} . {vocalsound}
User Interface: the the young people do like uh scroll uh
Industrial Designer: Use the scroll . Yeah I think so too .
Marketing: Yeah ? You do like it ?
Industrial Designer: So why not , on on side .
User Interface: Or at least {disfmarker} Yeah I don't know if it's really the scroll , but the menu {gap} they like most , and I think you can never get through a menu great with a scroll uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Fast , yeah . So if you've got a settings , if you {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah I think it is is faster . Becau I think the scroll's easier if you have a lot of options ,
Industrial Designer: Yes . {vocalsound}
Marketing: but if you don't have a lot of option then {disfmarker}
User Interface: But you have {disfmarker} it's f uh
Industrial Designer: You have a lot of options ,
User Interface: we have five or four or something .
Industrial Designer: because when you use {disfmarker} Yeah you get w when you use uh the settings menu for example to look up some uh uh some channels on your uh on your television , you should scroll scroll down uh on a menu which probably does not fit on your screen .
Marketing: Y
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Uh-huh . Yeah , okay , true .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So then it's uh very handy to to scroll down ,
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: you make just a rubber just like uh on your mouse or . Just put it on the side and it's very easy to use .
Marketing: {gap} Okay , no problem .
Project Manager: And I think I would it would make even more fancy because you have another interesting thing on the side
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: which you can touch
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's also different . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay . Well there's our five minutes uh warning . Um any more uh questions about about the design or the user interface or different components , everyone ?
Marketing: Um . No , colours are clear ,
Project Manager: Everybody think they can can
Marketing: shape is clear , material is clear .
Industrial Designer: Okay , what's the standard colour ?
Project Manager: work for that ?
Marketing: And a standard ,
Project Manager: Is there a standard colour ?
Marketing: yeah we don't {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I I
Marketing: no we have different colour .
Industrial Designer: You got you got different colours ,
Marketing: How many colours are we going to {disfmarker}
User Interface: You should you should have a black one
Industrial Designer: but you should have a standard colour .
User Interface: because uh I think black is standard .
Marketing: Black . Yeah , black I think is is the standard .
Industrial Designer: Black ? With the with the yellow uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: But if you want to be different , then uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Dark grey , something like this this colour or something .
Industrial Designer: Just a regular uh remote colour .
Marketing: Yeah like like yeah .
Industrial Designer: And then have uh different covers uh to use .
Marketing: Or or silver . I think it's better to have silver nowadays .
User Interface: Silver .
Industrial Designer: Silver , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: I think you see more silver than black .
Industrial Designer: You see a lot of t uh silver televisions .
Project Manager: But still silver and black are {disfmarker} well
User Interface: Silver rubber . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah the the silver black are our main colours . Yeah .
Project Manager: silver is new but also traditional , so uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think we have silver , black and between those {vocalsound} is like I dunno s five colours between them or something .
Project Manager: Yeah w what about a yellow thing , I mean it
Industrial Designer: Yeah y I think it's better to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah it'll be a banana yellow , we have .
Project Manager: could be ugly , but it's definitely fancy .
User Interface: {vocalsound} But
Marketing: R red .
Industrial Designer: Yeah th yeah . That's right .
User Interface: yeah .
Industrial Designer: But if you use uh silver , uh rubber s silver rubber isn't fancy .
Marketing: Green , wood , brown . Yeah . True .
Industrial Designer: When you use titanium , silver is fancy ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but when you use silver rubber , it isn't fancy . Silver has to shine , and rubber doesn't shine .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Especially when it's made of soft rubber like this .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: You understand ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , I understand .
Project Manager: Yeah I would think about colours like uh red , yellow , green , blue ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah o of course .
Project Manager: just {disfmarker}
Marketing: The fruity colours and the autumn colours , like red and brown , {gap} dark red and brown .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Just all kind of colour .
Industrial Designer: Fruity . Fruity loops .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Maroon . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay , so {disfmarker}
User Interface: And and do we have to have a normal black one , or uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Who's pinging ?
User Interface: Is it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You are pingin
Marketing: No {gap} .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} I thought we
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You ping . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , so uh that wraps it up ? Everybody knows uh what to do ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Well I wrote it down here . I wrote it down here what to do um .
User Interface: Well I don't know what to do ,
Industrial Designer: Well not what to do . Not what to do .
User Interface: but . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The next meeting is once again in thirty minutes . Um here are the individual actions ,
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: and especially notice that uh the Industrial Designer and the User Interface Designer are going to work together on a prototype drawing on a smart board ,
User Interface: Ooh . {vocalsound} Right .
Marketing: S
Project Manager: and of course to all four of us uh specific instructions will be emailed by our personal coach .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: tough . We'll be available .
User Interface: But do we have to {disfmarker} We'll work together , but do we have to stay here , or do we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well I I'd say just wait uh for email and uh find out .
User Interface: Right .
Project Manager: I don't know . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yes . Okay . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Thin I think we should work {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Okay well that was what I had to say , uh ,
User Interface: Yeah I think {gap} .
Project Manager: final thoughts from anyone , or ?
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: We're finished .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: Okay , well thank you very much .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Thank you very much .
Marketing: Finished .
User Interface: So we have to keep talking English now ? {vocalsound} | |
doc_167 | Project Manager: Okay , is everybody ready ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah ?
Marketing: Yeah I'd to just put on my microphone here and I'll be right with you .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Okay ?
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} I take it you all have received instructions as to what you were supposed to do
Industrial Designer: Mm ?
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: and um I think the Marketing Manager probably should go first , addressing the needs and desires .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay you want me to start right now ?
Project Manager: Yeah , mm-hmm .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well , could you um put my slides up 'cause I think it might be helpful if uh we looked at the slides at the same time .
Project Manager: Okay . You're participant four .
Marketing: I'm participant four I believe . Yes uh-huh .
Project Manager: Okay , and now I can uh full screen .
Marketing: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: Open .
Project Manager: Uh , okay , okay .
Marketing: There we go . Okay well I think we have introduced ourselves ,
Industrial Designer: And then full screen .
Marketing: so the functional requirements are {disfmarker} is {vocalsound} is part of my goal but why don't we pass right to the second slide . Cause that's where m my discussion starts . Right well um since I'm in charge of trying to figure out what we should put on this thing since I have to try to sell it .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Um {vocalsound} I thought that the method I should follow would be gather suggestions from everybody , and th the reason I just put that there like that is that uh in the init in the initial stage I think I should just be open to lots of suggestions . You know you can say anything you want no matter how silly it sounds you know it should run your car , it should heat up your motor if should um turn on your C_D_ {vocalsound} whatever you want it to do {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Marketing: um and then as we go on what we'll have to do is accept and eliminate these suggestions according to um design and budget feasibility . So I'll be coming to you um frequently as the Industrial Expert to tell me how hard it's gonna be to add a feature or how expensive it's gonna be or if your time , if it takes five years to develop this it's just something we can't do .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Hmm hmm . Mm .
Marketing: So in the beginning just have a big puddle of things that we {disfmarker} anybody can th throw anything in
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: and then just weed things out that can't be done for one reason or another , and then the things that seem the most attractive that to uh to a customer we'll try to then prioritise those .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Yeah .
Marketing: So that was um what I meant there , and as I said on the slide there consulting the Industrial Engineer about that and the other thing is timing is really gonna be as important as money , because if we're gonna sell this thing , I think the best time to sell it is as a Christmas present . Twenty five Euros makes a nice little present , and we want it to be an impulse purchase ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: we want somebody to see it and think it's , gee I just gotta have that . And take out their wallet and buy it . So it's gotta be really attractive and it {disfmarker} but it's gotta go to market by September , 'cause anything that you don't already have out there in September showing it around , isn't gonna sell for Christmas .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Um {vocalsound} and then I'll be coming to you as the User Interface person to try to tell me from your point of view what are the most friendly features that we could put on it and try to prior help me with that prioritising of uh of the features and of the the look and the colour
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: and I'll be coming back to you to help weed out those suggestions from that point of view .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: So I'll be coming to you for how much is it gonna cost us and how long is it gonna take you ,
Industrial Designer: Mm mm-hmm .
Marketing: and I'll be coming to you to tell me what's gonna make somebody take out their wallet you know ,
User Interface: What features .
Marketing: what what's what's gonna really be what they call a sizzle ,
User Interface: S sellable . Yes {vocalsound} .
Marketing: 'cause we gotta sell this sizzle {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: A lot of times the thing that works the best from an engineering point of view isn't the thing that somebody's really just gonna take out their wallet and buy for Christmas for for their child or for their husband or whatever .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Okay can we go to the next slide please ? Alright I I already did a little bit of research after our first meeting where we threw out some ideas and it looks to me that within the budget that we're looking at the uh the whole house idea really isn't gonna be possible . So I'd like your suggestions to come back to the other slide where I was saying we we could suggest anything .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I'd like the suggestions to be really specific , so that we'll have a list of things we can cross off , not something like you know whole house control what'll be {vocalsound} {disfmarker} And then I found on the internet from from my research that some extended electronic entertainment control should be possible . At the budget that we're looking at and at the price point we're looking at , we should be able to make it work the T_V_ , the V_C_R_ , the stereo set um maybe something else cute like a coffee pot or one other appliance or maybe a lamp .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh okay , can can I at this point interject um something ?
Marketing: I have to wind up ? Yeah , sure .
Project Manager: Um we have received instruction from higher up that certain things should not be uh considered . Um the one thing for example {disfmarker} something to eliminate maybe that's the teletext ,
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: because that's sort of outdated with the internet ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: and according to to higher management the {disfmarker} it should only control the T_V_ ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: mostly because they feel that it's too comp complex a task to um to to include other things ,
Industrial Designer: Complicated , yeah , of course .
Project Manager: and they are concerned with the time to market .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Of course , yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Um and the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay , so that's something {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and the third thing that they wanna make sure um that their {disfmarker} that the corporate image is being maintained , and that the corporate colour and design are being used on the product , so that it's easy that that that they can be easily identified as a product of of of the company , and that there's no mistake that it could be somebody else who is bringing this out .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So I just wanted to interject this here so we're not getting too much off track here with uh with the things we wanna look at . These were instructions from higher up so we have to eliminate uh these things , so it's only gonna be T_V_ ,
Marketing: Okay so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but the one thing maybe that could be um eliminated is the teletext uh idea .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Alright , thanks for that . Um alright now {vocalsound} other things that I found out on {disfmarker} in my research is that the complaints that people have about the remote controls that are out there now . 'Cause a lot of them take too much time to learn how to use , and that was thirty four percent but even more important the thing that we did address in our last meeting that frequently it's lost somewhere in the room . Um so those are two things that we definitely do wanna address , uh we wanna s make it as simple as possible , we wanna make it um obvious and intuitive to use , and then the things about finding it we talked about the {disfmarker} a light emitting thing as well as uh maybe a beep , and I think that those are things after my research that we definitely wanna try to incorporate . 'Kay can we go to the next slide please ? Okay , so , my personal preferences in this um project are really have to concentrate on the sizzle . That is the selling point , the thing that's gonna make it an impulse purchase . Uh because once there's no be-back , well in sales they always say you know , be-backs don't come back .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: If somebody says , oh I'll come back and get it next week you're dead . They're never gonna come back and buy it . You've gotta make it attractive enough so they buy it now now now w now is a big word in in my book for selling this thing . And , in order to make it really sellable we've gotta shorten the learning curve , make sure it's really intuitive and easy to use . We have to have as few buttons as possible , because more buttons is more confusion , so that's why I'm saying , simplicity is good . Finding it's important , obviously you can't use it if you can't find it . So we've gotta concentrate on the features that help you find it , and I've already said this several times but I put it down in writing here , it should be an attractive impulse purchase at twenty five Euros . So it has to have enough value that when somebody looks at it they say , uh twenty five Euros I'm not gonna take that . Has to be so great that they're gonna say , uh twenty five Euros isn't much . Um and then maybe a motto , like we put fashion in electronics might be something we can use in our marketing campaign .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay that's uh about it for me right now .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . And uh who would be next , uh , I guess that would be you . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah 'kay .
Project Manager: You want me to get your slide show up ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah sure .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Thank you .
Project Manager: And you are number three ?
Industrial Designer: Number two ,
Project Manager: Number two .
Industrial Designer: yeah . Yeah exactly .
Project Manager: Okay . Okay .
Industrial Designer: Uh can you make it uh full screen please ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Yep .
Industrial Designer: No , it's like a well you you have to press here . The cup cup shape here ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah yeah , uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: The thir third .
Project Manager: There , mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah exactly . Uh so today I'm going to talk about the working design of the remote controller . Um can you go to the next sli slide please ?
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: The metal is like uh in a remote controller you have a chip integrated circuit which is like a brain of the remote controller . It takes the power from a battery say a battery it it can be a elec an electric supply like you have to uh like uh switch connec connect connect your remote controller to uh power supply from the you know electricity or something like that . It should be a battery because uh uh remote controller should be like you you you should take it t to wherever you want and then um uh th
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: this integrated circuitry takes energy from the power source and whatever like if you press a button it's like a input for the remote controller and it takes the input and it it transforms into a infro infrared bits and it sends it into the device , like a T_V_ or a air conditioner , something like that so . Uh a remote controller is specifically designed to a single device . If you want to design it for multiple devices then you should make all the devices compatible with the frequency like uh th the remote controller it sends some bits some uh waves like with a particular frequency the device should know what the frequency is . It should re re recognise the uh waves which are coming from the remote controller and it should take the action like if you press a button channel or something like that then uh the remote uh remote controller will send a send a se {vocalsound} send a signal ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Signal .
Industrial Designer: and the T_V_ it should translate that into like change the channel or something like that , change the volume control
User Interface: Receive .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and uh so uh I think it's hard to design a remote controller for multiple uh devices .
User Interface: Multi-purpose .
Project Manager: Yo and it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah well that's already been eliminated by management , so we're off the hook {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: yeah {disfmarker} but it's so {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Um . So uh user interface controls the chip and accordingly the messages like there should be a user user in interface like you know switch pad or something like that buttons should be there . So uh you can control whatever you want , you want to change the channel you want to control the volume you you want to uh mute uh mute the uh T_V_ or you want to have a child lock or you want to do some operations there's a {disfmarker} there should be some device to tell what to do to the uh in uh integrated circuit so that the integrated circuit can s send the signals and T_V_ can perform the actions .
Marketing: Mm okay .
Industrial Designer: So can you go to the next slide please ?
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So I I just would like to uh add some extra features to the remote controller um I think these are the very simple features and uh they don't take much uh uh much of the um um investment also ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: it's like el the text or buttons which uh which are there on the uh remote controller they {disfmarker} those we can make uh um like fluorescent uh they'll be like light emitting if it is dark so that you can find your remote controller if it is dark .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And ther there should be a beep if many buttons are pressed if suppose a child is playing with the remote controller and a and she she or he is pressing the buttons all at the time then there should be a beep saying that it's {disfmarker} this this is not a a you know a a action , there can be no action taking to that so . And there should be a child lock , like uh uh you should be able to lock your remote controller so that uh um whatever buttons are pressed by a child they can't be like y you i you if you have ki kids and all then they'll be pl playing with the remote controllers so can lock the remote controller . If make it useable for more than one device it's a it's hard but I think it's possible
Project Manager: Yeah well {disfmarker} yeah well that has been e that has been eliminated , so that's that's unfortunately a moot point now . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: but it uh
Marketing: Well we already eliminated that .
Industrial Designer: yeah yeah yeah
User Interface: Eliminated .
Industrial Designer: so it's it's okay , yeah , yeah . And uh different shapes that we can do like uh we can have you know a all animals shapes or you know comfortable uh whi which can fit into your hands
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and um so that uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Now that's good from a marketing point of view , the fun {disfmarker} the fun shape .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah , yeah and colours also , different colours , and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah I {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm colours .
Marketing: And that {disfmarker} you you say that won't add too much to the budget ?
Industrial Designer: No no no , it won't uh I don't think it will be like ,
Marketing: To d the shape is uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: you can have you know for uh if you want ther there to be more {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It just build a mould basically and uh you know .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah .
User Interface: Yes exactly .
Industrial Designer: It's it's just a s shape so it doesn't matter .
Project Manager: As the budget we're looking at if you build one mould I don't think that's going to make a big difference whether it's gonna be square or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Do you think there's any chance of um having ser in {disfmarker} having basically the same machine with the same buttons but maybe several different shapes ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah that is also possible I uh yeah I I yeah .
Project Manager: Oh yes .
Marketing: Is that gonna be a possible ?
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: I think {disfmarker}
Marketing: 'Cause that might help with the marketing .
Project Manager: I think we will have to look at the budget on that
Industrial Designer: Yeah that will be {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but I think in principle that that would be {disfmarker} that would be kind of fun , you know .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah .
Marketing: Because we had something sort of sexy for adults and we could have something sort of
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Silly for children .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , for children , yeah exactly .
Marketing: silly for children
Project Manager: Like an animal or {disfmarker}
Marketing: or a little animal shape or in a {disfmarker} or a little elephant so they can remember where it is . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Like a doll , or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's what , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , exactly . Yeah .
User Interface: Yes {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: And and the butto buttons also I think if you want to have more features in your remote controller then there should be more buttons . If there are more buttons then it will be more complicated . If you have less features then your remote controller won't be attractive , so I think uh we need to make some buttons which are {disfmarker} which are like um uh f in uh in intended for two or three operations , like if you press one button in one mode then it will change the channel , if you press the other button in another mode it will change the colour . So if you want to have less buttons we can have that option but I think it will complicate the matter more I think so .
Marketing: Mm . Well , I think {disfmarker} I think that that's something that we'll have to discuss um with the User Interface person
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yep , yeah .
Marketing: because I think there's a lot of argument to be made for one button for one feature . Because I think one of the things were complaining about in my {disfmarker} what I found out in my research is when they complained about how hard it is to learn a new one .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: The changing modes was something {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's like you know {vocalsound} yeah .
Marketing: I mean you and I , all f all four of us we work with computers all the time ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: changing modes is nothing for us , but people who {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , a little elderly , a little arthritic hand you know ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} N and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and and it's a small button and and it {disfmarker} they don't press it exactly
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Yeah .
Project Manager: you know something else happens n not their favourite channel comes up but something else
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yes .
Project Manager: and they're very frustrated you know .
User Interface: Something else .
Marketing: And that's {disfmarker} and that's the kind of thing people learn by feel , and um {vocalsound} you don't feel the mode change .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah you don't {vocalsound} us yeah yeah , usually . Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} So um maybe having buttons be various shapes might be a help too .
Industrial Designer: Yeah shapes also , different shapes .
Marketing: You know , like the {disfmarker} a triangle is for the volume and a square is for changing channels , so that people can uh develop a tactile sense of it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah that will {disfmarker} Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Channels .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm , mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
Marketing: But we'll get to that with you .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: yeah , and also text should be very clear so that there there won't be any ambiguities and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: That's right , yeah . Now that's a good point . Yeah .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: So yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And uh display clock i if you want more features then we can display a clock it I I don't think it will take any money extra money because anyway we have an integrated circuit I think we can just definitely fit that feature into the circuit so it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , that's that's a good {disfmarker} that's a good one ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , and we display a clock .
Marketing: because the clock would be really friendly ,
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: and and when is your favourite show coming on
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , and then you can just see your remote controller yeah yeah yeah so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah you're sitting there already or maybe you have no other uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yes {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound} and {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Yeah , and a lot of time there's not a clock on the screen , and you have to go somewhere but you just wanna look at the news for a minute .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah that's that's good , the clock is good .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Uh can you go to the next slide please ?
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Uh components uh the main components we need for uh it ha like buttons and uh underneath that there should be switch . And uh bulbs . Like uh we can have a bulb like whenever we are operating a remote controller or uh whenever the T_V_ is on suppose ,
User Interface: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: then the remote controller should automatically have a b s light .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Then it will be like if you switch on your T_V_ through anoth another source , not from {disfmarker} through a remote remote controller and you you lost your remote controller maybe you can find with the light .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Maybe we can have that . Whenever the T_V_ is on , remote controller will have a light .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And then uh infrared bulbs . Um this is like uh when it is dark .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah , mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And battery , there should be a battery for power supply ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and a chip ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: chip which is like a brain to the remote controller which does all the operations ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and wires connecting all chips , which is uh lights , everything ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: so there should be wires . And uh uh of course there should be a case where we can keep all the things and , you know different shapes or whatever it is there should be a case to put to give a shape .
User Interface: To keep the remote ? Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Case .
User Interface: A case holder . A holder {disfmarker} remote holder .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , holder .
Project Manager: Holder , yeah , mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um uh can you move onto the next slide . Um next sli slide please . Um I have referred the site uh the homepage of the um our website , uh from where I have uh uh I got s few points .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: That's it , that's it from me now .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So it {disfmarker} um we should visit this site and have a look at uh what's up there ? Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um .
Project Manager: Well , you don't have to .
Industrial Designer: Uh it's not like that , I have referred the page to get new ideas or like what can be the working design to how it works and all and so and so .
Marketing: Okay . Okay . So it might be helpful if we had a look at that .
Industrial Designer: Yeah if you want . Yeah , it's okay .
Marketing: Okay , thank you . Could you go back to that slide where she had that uh s slide up Betsy ?
Industrial Designer: Uh , it's actually there now , there on the screen .
Project Manager: This one ?
Marketing: Yeah , okay , thank you .
Project Manager: And Francine ?
User Interface: Participant two .
Project Manager: You are number two ?
User Interface: Yes . No no , I'm three .
Project Manager: You're three . Would you want it full full screen ?
User Interface: I can make it full ? Yes yes yes .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm ? Okay .
User Interface: Okay . As uh User Interface Designer I did a little research to find out what are the features which a user would like to have on their remote .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah can you please go onto the next slide ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So I found out that uh but uh the main purpose of a remote is to uh f control the function of a television at a far off distance at remote distance . Now for that , uh a remote controller should have a switch on off button by which a user can sit anywhere in the room in front of the T_V_ and he can control the functionalities different functionalities of the T_V_ .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: There should be a signal uh something like a radio wave or a infrared light or a LED which can be used to change the different functionalities in the television if the user wants to uh change the channels or increase the volume he can change it .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Now there should be some timer to set for viewing a particular a particular programme or switching on and off a uh a particular programme according to the user choice .
Project Manager: On the on on the remote . Yeah , mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yes . Yes . So if if he want to view a particular programme at say nine o'clock he can set the time , and the T_V_ will automatically it will switch on at that particular time .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Right . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So he can use that kind of uh uh properties of features and then there should be a child lock system if a particular channel is not to be viewed by a particular uh for a certain age , then the parents can lock that particular channel so that the ch children cannot view that channel .
Project Manager: Yes . By your child , mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And uh the uh the uh and the {disfmarker} one of the feature a user would like to have is the compactness of the co remote .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Uh t the remote should be compact and it should ha it should have as many buttons as possible for controlling different functionalities of the T_V_ television . And um uh as uh uh this is my personal preference that it should be in the shape of a T_ in alphabet for more compactability .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And uh and uh and it is one more point which I noted it down , like uh the material which which which is used for remotes should be human friendly it should not cause any skin disease or something some al allergy to either children or to um ad adult person .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm , 'kay .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And it should have an uh it can have an alarm clock a a person if some if somebody wants to get up at around eight eight P_M_ then he can set the time and it can be used as an alarm clock ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and I don't think it will cost much to set an alarm clock inside a remote .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , sure .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: If there is a clock then there can be a alarm clock .
User Interface: Yes ,
Marketing: And an alarm clock , yeah that should {disfmarker} that should be okay .
User Interface: and as John Reece said the buttons can be , uh can me we can use the fluorescence to light up the buttons so different uh buttons will glow differently . So in even in the dark the user can know what buttons to use to switch on a particular channel . And uh uh the design of the uh um remote should be in such a way that there should not be any sharp projections so that if a child plays with a remote , he uh he should not be harmed in any way .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: And findings , uh I found out uh y um on different sites that uh there are different remotes which can be used , there are remotes which use the infrared for controlling the different functionalities , there are remotes which use the radio waves to control the functions and there are uh {disfmarker} So uh there you have different uh types of remotes for different light source which are used {disfmarker} which can be used for controlling the different functionalities of a television . Next slide . And these are my few personal preferences like it can be used for a multipurpose use . Not , uh no uh like it can {disfmarker} it can be used as a T_V_ control as plus an alarm clock to set an alarm a timing and it should have a child lock , and then to save electricity uh there should not be uh much s move uh lots of circuits and all that . And if a person if if if parents wants the television to be switched off by ten o'clock then it should be switched off ten o at ten o'clock automatically , so that nobody else comes later and use it .
Industrial Designer: It's like a t okay , it's like a timer {gap} it's like a lock to the television .
Project Manager: Timer , yeah , mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
User Interface: Timer . Yeah and then you can use a timer as well . Yes . Yeah that's it .
Project Manager: Uh okay , now I have {disfmarker} On my slide show basically we already {disfmarker} we have already done the agenda , and uh on the closing uh basically there will be lunch break and all that . However uh the decision we have to take in this meeting is who is our target group . And uh what function , working design , how how does it work .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: So these are the two things we should come up wit with . So uh the first thing is pro maybe a little easier on uh who is our target group . Um . I guess in many ways everybody . Everybody who has a T_V_ .
Industrial Designer: Mm , T_V_ , yeah .
User Interface: T_V_ television we was .
Project Manager: Yeah , and I think today there are probably not many people who don't have a T_V_ .
Industrial Designer: Don't T_V_ , yeah .
Project Manager: There are a few but in general not . {vocalsound} Now , talking about the target group which is in a sense everybody , but I think within the target group we have subgroups . We have {disfmarker} we have earlier it was mentioned about um for example elderly people who have limited function with their fingers and hands ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: so I think that's uh one group that's certainly important .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: Um then we have just the nervous people who can never press a little button on anything um unless it's really very clear .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: And uh I don't know how much we want to cater to children's use . I mean that's a question um whether that's important that children can really use it or not .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: So this {disfmarker} these are just some thoughts I have on it , and um I dunno what you feel about whether we can just say we have one target group and for this one target group we're gonna design this one thing {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: or whether we're looking at what we like we we talking about different shapes , whether that different shape also includes maybe different uh buttons uh for different groups .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Well you know there's the old motto , children under six never shop alone .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So if you've designed something that's very attractive to children um the mummy please mummy please um you know we want it now we wanna go to the store and see it um that has uh a lot of marketing pull .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That has a lot of {disfmarker} that has a lot of appeal but I think uh I'm I'm talking about the functionality now on it whether we're looking at different groups .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: I think the children issue can be addressed with the shape and with colours .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: You know , like you make it nice and pink , fluorescent , banana colour or whatever {vocalsound} you know
User Interface: Different colours .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: That's right .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: You can make a banana shaped one . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah , for example you know .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Mm .
Project Manager: But the question is really , who is our target group .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Do we look at one target group ? {vocalsound} And with the twenty five Euros you know can we can we afford to have uh I'm asking the technical people here whether um to look at sort of subgroups with maybe different buttons for each group how much would that throw us out of the cost we are supposed to respect ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Respect . Mm .
User Interface: Okay . No uh generally we can we can design a remote which is mainly for people with uh f age from ten to um forty
Project Manager: Right .
User Interface: and and then we can add on uh specific functional buttons for children as well as the elderly people or the people wit with who have nervous problems , yes .
Project Manager: With with {disfmarker} Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: We can design different remotes for different people , like for aged people there will be big buttons and you know .
Project Manager: Well that's that's {disfmarker}
User Interface: But in a family {disfmarker} in a family there will be a aged person , children and a middle aged but they cannot buy three different remotes .
Industrial Designer: {gap} yeah . Children and everybody , yeah .
User Interface: They would like to buy just one and um just one which can be used all the three uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah of course that we can do , but specifically if y if like elderly people want big buttons then you can't really make a bi big remote controller so maybe specifically you can design a big con remote controller for elderly and for children , like in a different you know .
Marketing: What about the electronics ? That's not really gonna change much , is it ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Cost effective .
Industrial Designer: No , it it doesn't cost , yeah .
Project Manager: No {vocalsound}
Marketing: That {vocalsound} that w that won't change much , will it uh ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Doesn't doesn't doesn't matter .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} The the quest the question to be addressed here is only who is the target group and how will it function ,
Marketing: I d I wouldn't think so .
Project Manager: and I think the how will it function is probably the question of the buttons you know , within the target group or subgroups .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah .
Project Manager: The question is only whether our budget will allow to have more than one design in a sense . I mean the basic design I understand will be the same ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: but the question is how much will that set us back if let's say {vocalsound} uh forty percent we make large buttons and the rest we make regular buttons for example .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So that remains to s to be seen but {vocalsound} uh the target group as a whole is is basically everybody with a T_V_ .
Marketing: That's right ,
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: and can we {disfmarker} can we is it even feasible to make one one remote control with something for everyone , or would we have to use the same electronics and make three different shapes ?
Project Manager: Yeah , well that's that's the question .
Marketing: Um the same electronics and basically all that's gonna be different is the plastic case .
Industrial Designer: Hmm hmm .
Marketing: And in that case we could probabl moulded plastic isn't all that expensive is it ?
Industrial Designer: Uh no . Mm , I I I don't think no . It's not .
Marketing: Um you as an industrial person ?
Project Manager: Well maybe there's {disfmarker} there's an idea you know t the new for example new portable phones ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: They have like removable plastic cases , so you can have a striped one or you can have a fluorescent blue one , or whatever ,
Marketing: Yeah . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and maybe something like that ,
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: that in each package you know you have {disfmarker} you you have {disfmarker} you have for example uh {vocalsound} you have let's say a fluorescent blue on it but then you have uh another colour or stripe whatever that already comes in a package .
Marketing: Well there's a real idea yeah . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: And then if people really want more colours they can buy it separately .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: You know ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , like for mobile phones we have uh different you know covers , like designs and all so that w we can have that .
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: yes .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: That's right ,
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: and {disfmarker} but like if if then everybody is is is tired of the fluorescent blue and of the striped or whatever they have as another one in the package ,
Marketing: Uh yeah .
Project Manager: then they can go to the store and for a few uh Francs or Euros whatever they can buy
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: An alternate package .
Project Manager: an alternate package with another two colours in it you know for example you know .
Marketing: Yeah . Okay .
User Interface: But uh yeah I I have a doubt like will it be cost wise effective if we {disfmarker} if we design a remote having all the uh different features for different people or designing three different um remotes for three different categories of people .
Project Manager: Well I think {disfmarker} I think the idea here is to uh to to d design one remote
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well I think we can only aff {gap} , yeah .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: and what the only change is gonna be um
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: the funct d t yeah uh {vocalsound}
Marketing: Cosmetic .
User Interface: Of th okay .
Project Manager: the functional {vocalsound} functional cosmetics if you want to put it that way ,
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: um having maybe larger buttons or buttons that light up or buttons that are slightly differently shaped for people uh either for children um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Five minutes that was I guess tha that's the old message .
Marketing: Warning , finish meeting now . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Finish meeting now . Um um .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well we may have to come back to one or two of these points at our next meeting but um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , maybe , yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: But I think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: If we do some more research , maybe we {gap} .
Project Manager: I I think to sum it up the target group is basically everybody . If money permits we can address some features for some subgroups within that .
User Interface: Okay ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Hmm yeah ,
Project Manager: Do we agree , do we ?
Industrial Designer: I think maybe seventy percent is a unique uh uh remote controller and thirty percent is yeah it's sort of like {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: Okay but we have to l
Project Manager: Do we agree on on that in principle , like money will tell whether we will be able to do that or not .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah , of course , yeah .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Okay , fair enough .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay ? So now I understand it's lunch break .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And um . So that's what we will do .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: So hank you very much .
Industrial Designer: Thank you .
Project Manager: And we'll see you after lunch . | |
doc_168 | Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh .
User Interface: Du
Project Manager: Okay . Thanks for coming to this meeting .
Marketing: Hm .
Project Manager: S how we doing on our remote ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We have some {disfmarker} we have some ideas and some uh ideas for what people want .
User Interface: Uh we yes s I've lo {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I've done the role that I was asked to do anyway .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I think .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright let's just go over the agenda real quick for this meeting . See if I can't get things uh moving along here a little bit better . Um I'll go over what we went over last time , which shouldn't take long . Then I believe each of you have a presentation . Um I've was sent a a couple more requirements for our remote , what they want . Um then we can come to a conclusion on uh what we want the remote to do , um and how it's going to do it hopefully . And uh then we'll have the closing . {vocalsound} Um which we'll have forty minutes for . Uh let's see , the last meeting we went over um {vocalsound} who was responsible for what . I'm responsible for leading the meetings , keeping the notes , uh and coming up with the final presentation . Um Corinne is our Marketing Expert . She's gonna figure out what what um the consumer wants . Um {vocalsound} Ryan is our User Interface Designer . And Manuel is the Industrial Designer . So you're gonna come up with the ideas Ryan , and you're gonna pick 'em apart .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um we decided our remote , uh we want it to be a universal remote uh that everyone would want . Um we want to be modern , um fun , different . Uh it needs to be sturdy , um easy to find , so we gonna have that locator function . Um and we want to be different . Um and then we went over a couple of different ideas . Ball-shaped phone . The keyboard shape . Um we decided that it should probably be one-handed . Something we could use with one hand . Um and that was our last meeting . So um why don't um {disfmarker} Do each of you have a presentation ?
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: Okay . I'll hand it off to you and um {disfmarker} Does anyone {disfmarker} do you wanna go first ?
Marketing: Sure .
Project Manager: So we can maybe see what uh what the people want .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: What was it ? Function ?
Industrial Designer: Eight . F_ eight .
Marketing: F_ eight ? Well . {vocalsound} How do I get it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Slide show .
Project Manager: To go to the next one ?
Marketing: Oh right right right .
Project Manager: Yeah you click on that guy .
Marketing: That one ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay . Alright . Well , this is my report , which is going to be based pretty much on a survey that I was sent . Oh gosh , I've no idea . {vocalsound} G
User Interface: Just press the arrow keys I think . Usually goes to it .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sorry I actually need to see something else on my screen .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hit F_ eight again .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I think .
Marketing: And then ? Again ?
Project Manager: Yeah . You want it to be on both screens , or just just yours ?
Marketing: No I want something else on mine . Is that possible ?
Project Manager: Yeah but I think you have to hit escape . And then you can {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: Okay but now you don't have that .
Project Manager: Oh hit F_ eight again .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Sorry guys .
Project Manager: I know . I did the same thing . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And then it should come up here shortly . 'Kay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} So is there no way I can give you the slideshow and
Project Manager: I think {disfmarker} oh give us the slideshow and something on your screen ?
Marketing: yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Oh well .
Project Manager: I'm not sure . You could maybe minimise that screen and then have them both up at the same time I think .
Marketing: Yeah . It's okay . Okay . Um so first of all , the method that I used was by doing some marketing research ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: by um doing research on some interviews that were conducted . And then some internet research . And I was sent a report that was {disfmarker} I think there were a hundred remote users that they interviewed . And so I will show you some of the results from that , which I think will be helpful . Um okay here are some of the findings . They said that the users dislike the look and feel of their current remote controls . And seventy five percent of the users find their remote controls to be ugly . Which is a fairly significant number I would say . And eighty percent of the users would be willing to spend more money if they could get a remote that would look fancy . So I think that earlier we were onto something when we were talking about having it be a modern cool look , I think that's definitely important . Um they say that current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . Seventy five percent of users said they zap a lot . And if anyone could clarify what that means ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Just jus
User Interface: Is is it j just just
Marketing: Zap , does that just mean like changing the channel ?
User Interface: just using it
Industrial Designer: yeah .
User Interface: yeah .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound} Um and fifty percent of the users say that they're only using ten percent of the buttons on their remote control . And there was something else , they kept track of the frequency per hour in using certain buttons . And some of them it looks like barely need to be included at all . Of course channel selection is used the most frequently . And then teletext was the next . Volume and then power . And then audio settings and screen settings and channel settings were practically never used . So I think we could definitely eliminate or somehow combine a lot of the functions into one button . Um the biggest user frustrations , as we said fifty percent of people find that their remotes are lost somewhere , and so I think a tracking device of some sort would be a good idea . They said it take {disfmarker} thirty four percent said it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote . And twenty six percent said that the controls are bad for R_S_I_ . {vocalsound}
User Interface: A repetitive strain injury .
Marketing: What is it ?
User Interface: Just repetitive strain injury . I think . That's what I guess .
Marketing: Okay . Okay . And so bas okay . Um as far as speech recognition goes , um the younger group looks like they're all for it . From the fifteen to twenty five age group over ninety percent said they would pay more . And it kind of just went down incrementally . The groups at {disfmarker} the older they get it looks like the less willing they are to pay , so maybe we could discuss this and think {disfmarker} and decide if we think it's worth investing in this . At least if we're targeting the younger groups . And so in conclusion . Some things that I drew from this are that I think we were correct . We definitely need to focus on a new modern appearance , since so many people seem to be concerned about the ugliness of their remote control . Um a multifunctional remote could be a good thing to explore . So you only have one rather than five different remotes sitting all over your room . Uh we need to simplify the remote and reduce the number of buttons , get rid of the ones that don't seem to be serving much purpose . And then lastly I thought that maybe we could discuss the idea of speech recognition . And that's it .
Project Manager: 'Kay . Very nice . Now we actually have some ideas of what what people want , what we should focus on . Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Wait can I look at that real quick ? {gap} .
Marketing: Oh yeah . Sorry did you guys get time to write everything that you needed ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: 'Kay .
User Interface: Having just listened to what Corinne just said , I'll draw on some of the things as well . {vocalsound} {gap} Some things that sort of relevant to what I wanna say . 'Kay so I'm just gonna yeah approach the technical functions design . Um {vocalsound} the method I used was to explore the uh technical functions of a remote control .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And t s simplest approach that I came to is is to change , programme and operate an electronic device remotely . I mean that's an obvious thing to say , but it's not attached to the device that you want to control . Um I had some things sent to me . Not very much . To look at similar devices . Um defined in some them . And then the personal preferences that I will suggest . Um we discussed a universal one . Um like it's just been brought up again then . But I think a universal remote control is actually quite a difficult object to design , and po possibly within maybe the budget that we do it , um because you'd need to know all the spef specifications of a all the like electronic companies . I'm not sure have you ever come across a universal remote control yourself , but you have to {disfmarker} i they're a nightmare to use . You have to set them , reset them to everything . Um and that would only add buttons . Whereas I think the aim is to take away buttons . So I think it'd be better maybe to concentrate on maybe just a universal one for T_V_s . Um or maybe just one that you could we could design and then different people , manufacturers could use it to set to their specifications , if if the aim is to get something that's unique in design . Um {disfmarker} Okay here here's just two pictures of remote controls . They're just simple T_V_ remote controls . But one is uh user-centred . That is the one on the left . And you can straight away see there's less buttons . And the other one is {gap} engineer-centred where that's more uh specified for the sort of the elaborate piece of equipment it's trying to control um {disfmarker} {gap} which appeals more to the product that we want , and on what the {gap} have said and the market research and stuff {gap} probably looking at something that should be user-centred . Fewer buttons , simpler to use , and if ten percent um is hidden away {disfmarker} if ten percent is what's used , maybe the other fifty percent , the buttons that are used very rarely like programming , they could be hidden maybe under {disfmarker} some remote controls you might have come across have maybe a little flip thi thing where they're hidden away . And the main buttons are the ones you or the ones you come across . Um and finally , um uh sort I've sort of covered that , our product I think should be user interface orientated . Um {disfmarker} Like I said to concentrate on T_V_ remote control , a universal remote might be too complex . Um and as what it , the major findings {gap} market researchers have said , it's the image and the appearance that people di dislike . So that we should concentrate on something that would set a trend . And that's it .
Industrial Designer: {gap} cable there . Thank you .
Project Manager: What was your last conclusion on that one ? Focus on uh the i
User Interface: On something on the image of it .
Project Manager: the image of it .
User Interface: Uh the f the actual design .
Project Manager: 'Kay . Good . Good .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Gonna talk to you about the working design of the interiors basically which is what dictates the design the both the interface basically and the outer appearance because this is all the stuff that needs to go in there . Right . So unfortunately the people who were supposed to do this little presentation for me obviously were too drunk to actually accomplish it ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so um {vocalsound} I'm going to do a lot of the stuff on the board . Um just {disfmarker} This is the basic basic premise of a remote control . Um the basic function is to send messages to another system . Okay so much is clear . An energy source feeds an integrated circuit , like a chip , that can compose messages . {vocalsound} Often in the form of infrared bits . This is the most mostly used . Um there's uh also some sound systems but infrared is the better or the more more used system . Um parts are cheaper as well . A user interface controls the chip and accordingly the messages . This is where my people screwed up basically .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So I'm going to explain that on the board rather . Um what we have is different components that obviously need to go in there . We'll start with an energy source . Right . Um which is usually a battery right ? {vocalsound} Since it's not feasible to add a cable to that . This energy source of course is connected to the the user interface itself {vocalsound} . Uh which can be buttons , whatever , which in fact controls a chip . Right ? This is the user interface and there we have the chip . Um the way this goes normally is that this chip then controls an infrared lamp . That sends out the signal . Of course the signal differs accordingly . Um depending on what the chip tells the infrared lan lamp . And {disfmarker} Of course that's controlled , the chip itself is controlled by the user interface . The way you normally normally do it is that you add a little device such as a lamp to the whole thing as well , so that you know that it's working basically . You press something , you get a response . Which is also comparatively um important on one of those devices . Now this , what we're talking about here , or what I think should be discussed are these two components mostly . The the uh energy source for one thing can be altered . What we probably cannot alter is of course the infrared , the sending device basically , the infrared lamp . We cannot change the chip which controls the infrared lamp . Right ? These two are components that we have to use , and these are dictated by the whole function of the whole thing . Um the lamp can be put onto the desi the device . It c it doesn't have to be there . This can be discussed as well . {vocalsound} The user interface . That's something we can also discuss . Um as we've heard uh speech recognition is the hype obviously in the moment . Speech recognition um interface , we don't know that . Or if we just do the usual button thing . Or we have a touch pad or something like that {disfmarker} that's something we can discuss . And of course the energy source . Batteries . Solar cells . Who knows ? {vocalsound} Of course it's always a question whether these these components are in fact {vocalsound} available cheap enough , developed enough . But that's like I s I suppose rather up to marketing , and not to
Project Manager: So we could {disfmarker} the the
Industrial Designer: to the industrial design department .
Project Manager: the more complex we make it of course , the more expensive {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Expensive it's gonna be get uh . Yeah .
Project Manager: But people have said that they would {disfmarker} well younger generations of people have said that they would pay more for a speech recognition remote .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So possibly it might be worth the investment .
Industrial Designer: Right .
User Interface: I think speech recognition was uh one of those things where um they have to be really good for them to work . 'Cause sometimes you find yourself just saying things over and o {gap} if it's on your phone .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I agree . Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: And you need to sort of take into light languages and then {vocalsound} different dialects I suppose as well .
Project Manager: I {disfmarker} myself I find , when you , h when there's something like spee speech recognition . Like uh you call on the phone and you try to change your telephone or power or something . Sometimes they have a a speech recognition on the other end ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: and you say one for this , and you find yours , like you said , saying the same thing over and over and over . I find myself , especially if I'm in a crowd of people , looking really silly .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So maybe if you're sitting on your couch with a bunch of people then you know , you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: And wou I don't know if would would you want to keep saying stuff if you were watching stuff . If you were watching something would you sort of be wanting {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Volume up . Volume down . Change the channel , you know channel up , channel down ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I I don't know .
Marketing: Another thing about these figures is ninety one percent of the youngest age groups said they'd do it , but probably a lot of them that's actually their parents money . Like I don't know if they would actually go out and purchase this themselves , a fifteen year old you know .
User Interface: I think {disfmarker} As well it'd be j the gimmick factor for the younger people .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: But practically I don't think it's {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's a , it's a gimmick factor that they like at first , and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . It'll wear off .
Marketing: Gets old yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . Um {disfmarker} Let's see here .
User Interface: Do you wanna put your cord back in ?
Project Manager: Yeah I guess so .
Industrial Designer: Oh right . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Trade you .
Industrial Designer: {gap} go . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Now I was sent a couple of things to modify our uh new requirements . Um the remote's only gonna be for the television , which is good because we already decided {disfmarker} y your your research showed that uh not only is a universal remote more complicated , it's more cost , more costly . And your re uh research showed that you know most of the people don't even use it . I think uh you said fifty percent of the people only use half the or ten percent of the buttons .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: So if we remove the universal remote then that solves that problem . Um no teletext . Um {disfmarker} So we don't have to worry about that . Um but we do have to use the the company wants us to incorporate the corporate colour and our slogan , which is we put the fashion in electronics . And our corporate colours are grey and yellow . And we could probably get away with black too but {disfmarker} So those are the three um the three new requirements that that I was told we need to use . Um from all all three of your uh presentations , I think that we were on the right track a lot in our last meeting . We want something that looks good . Um we want something that's simple . We want something that you can find easily . Um {disfmarker} And the speech recognition I I guess is kind of uh give or take . It's gonna cost more . S the young the younger people say that they like it .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: But um it's probably , I would say , probably not worth the investment at this point in time . So maybe we should just do away with speech recognition . Um {disfmarker} And that way we can focus on our form .
User Interface: I did have have a thought about the sort of the tracking thing . Is that {disfmarker} if it came with maybe a holder or holster , whatever you wanna call it . Um that you you should put it back in . Your remote . But if you don't put it back in , you press something like a little button on that , and that just sort of sends out a beep {vocalsound} to find where it is or something . Just by infrared . That shouldn't be too complex I would've thought .
Project Manager: That'd be , that'd be good if we were going with our our ball .
User Interface: Yeah it would be quite good .
Project Manager: Or or with {disfmarker} you know I guess with any form that that would be good .
User Interface: The ball could sit on a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: You know that could be the charger . For you know
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: we could use rechargeable batteries in the remote . And that would be {disfmarker} or solar . Or you know {disfmarker} However , however you wanted to go about it , the holder could also be the charging unit . Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: With the locator button . Um and if it were the ball you'd no longer have to have a flat space on it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um like
Industrial Designer: Well
Project Manager: if
Industrial Designer: you still do .
Project Manager: we still have the how to hold on to it
Industrial Designer: You s you still {disfmarker} W yeah . You put it on t on the couch table .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's gonna roll away .
Industrial Designer: While you're watching ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} Rolls away
Industrial Designer: it's gonna roll off . So
Marketing: yeah .
Industrial Designer: that's not an issue really .
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} So I guess after the meeting {vocalsound} we'll have some questionnaires . And uh and some summaries for for what's going on . Um then we'll take lunch . Then we can come back and uh work on our individual work . Um {disfmarker} I'll do the minutes . Uh let's see . It looks like you're already on your way for uh working with the components . Um chips , the what chips we need
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Project Manager: and what uh you know how to power it and whatnot . User interface concept , we want it to be something simple .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Minimal number of buttons . I guess our , I guess our main um main thing that we should focus on until then is probably deciding on a certain look , you know .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right . That's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Did you have time earlier to to work on that . Did you guys feel you have enough time in between our meetings to get everything done that you need to get done ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Not really . {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'll yeah I'll have a look , try {gap} look at the actual appearance in the next break .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: I th I I do still think it needs to be something that is ultimately one-handed . The ball is probably not a good idea .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: And even something that's held like that might be difficult .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So that I think it still has to be a variation . On maybe a a rect on a rectangle but maybe not necessarily as boring , as plain as a rectangle .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Shall we maybe shoot for a a specific uh target group ? That way we could l I mean if it were , if we were shooting for young guys then it's um a certain look to the remote . Or girls or older people ? Um {disfmarker} Would that {disfmarker} you think that would help us find um a specific form ? That we would would wanna pick out ?
User Interface: D I don't know if that might cope with like the trend-watching . I {gap} find anything more on that .
Marketing: Mm . Yeah not yet but maybe by the next meeting we'll have some info on that .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} 'Kay . So um we know that the remote's gonna have to be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we'll just say we've got a colour scheme for it . Um yellow and {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: you know yellow it's nice and bright , with the buttons being grey or black .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: And our slogan pasted somewhere on it , on the the bottom
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: or the
User Interface: Bottom perhaps
Project Manager: you know . Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: yeah .
Project Manager: Maybe we could sketch a {disfmarker} so basically all of our remotes all of our typical remotes now are just kind of a rectangular sort . You know . Um maybe we could flare it or something . You know . So it's more {disfmarker} of course this will look like a bone then .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} go ahead and erase this . Um {disfmarker} Hope everyone memorised that uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: You {disfmarker} I mean it might be to look at sort of the the shape and trend of like things like mobile phones , and the shapes that the they've been going .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: They've gone from big brick block things , which is {gap} a remote control is , to sort of slinky small things .
Project Manager: Yeah everybody's got a mobile phone right ? Except for me now . {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But they are all ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: you know , mobile phones um they've kind of taken a turn to where they're really small . Um which may defeat our purpose for being able to locate our remote all the time .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: But then again you don't want you know like the first mobile phone that was this big
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and you had a handbag to carry it around in . Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So we've got basically what remotes look like now is kind of what we're what we're stuck with . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Maybe we could go with a square or something . Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hm .
Project Manager: Um you know with minimal number of buttons . I guess you've got you know one through nine . For typing in your channels . Uh you've got volume , up and down . Channel up and down .
Marketing: Power .
Project Manager: Power . Usually at the top . Um a mute .
Industrial Designer: That's the classical design .
Project Manager: That's that's pretty much all you need I think . Um {disfmarker} A menu button , maybe .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: So you know . If you , if we want the remote to do other things like um {disfmarker} or I guess the T_V_ to be able to change the tint and the colour and you know all those kind of things that are built into T_V_s , we just have that under one standard menu button where you go in , press the menu button , scroll up and down to select it .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Talking of which maybe a scrolling function is not not too bad .
Project Manager: 'Kay so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Talk about maybe {disfmarker} {vocalsound} f look at that from the side , there maybe .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Which is technically the easiest option . Would probably be like a scrolling , little scrolling wheel like this .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . So .
Project Manager: Like a wheel on your mouse .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , sort of like that .
Project Manager: Sort of .
Industrial Designer: You can even if we're coming from mice , we can even add a click function , where you , in order to verify the information you just press it down . Right .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} 'S a good idea .
Industrial Designer: Also when it comes to the ergonomics of the whole thing , if you wanna make it square for the looks of it , then maybe to make it more comfortable to hold the whole thing , you add a little bulge down here . Just which maybe from an engineering point this could be holding the the batteries and so on .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: I know . You know what I'm getting at here ,
Project Manager: Look g yeah . Looks good .
Industrial Designer: fel look at it from the side . It's {gap} like that .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Right . Uh {disfmarker} Then you hold it in your hand like this . And maybe you bring the buttons nearer to the {disfmarker} or the imp more important buttons nearer to the to the side .
User Interface: Yes {vocalsound}
Project Manager: To the thumb . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right . Mm .
User Interface: To the thumb yeah . Maybe the buttons could like uh decrease in s the bigger ones you know they could actually be bigger in size than the ones that are less important , the smaller here .
Industrial Designer: Right . You can also have it , maybe , talking about mobile phones again , sliding open . With the lesser used functions on this part ,
User Interface: Yeah . Behind .
Industrial Designer: and then it slides into that part . And out .
User Interface: Definitely . {gap} just like o on a sort of side view . Something that you know it would sort of fit in the hand better . So you know you just sort of have your hand
Industrial Designer: Mm well I was just thinking , this this of course causes
User Interface: Yeah . Right on the {disfmarker} and your thumb would be up here type thing .
Industrial Designer: causes a problem um for left or right-handed people actually . So .
User Interface: Yeah that's also true . {gap} instantly sort of always going for the right-handed person .
Industrial Designer: Right .
User Interface: But I mean {gap} the older so
Project Manager: Yeah {vocalsound} is everyone {disfmarker} who in here's right-handed , left-handed ? You guys all right-handed ?
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: Right .
User Interface: Right-handed ,
Project Manager: Yeah . So
User Interface: yeah .
Project Manager: I'm left-handed but I , so I can say that most things are designed for right-handed people .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} That's right .
Marketing: Uh-huh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Like the written language . {vocalsound} Or English .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Maybe you could buy like a special left-handed version of the remote . {vocalsound} Special order .
Project Manager: Maybe . Ow . I would say I mean it should be probably designed for a right-handed p person .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um but that's that's good . That's {disfmarker} w I think we've got a kind of a good plan there . Um {disfmarker} At least for what buttons we're gonna use . Um {disfmarker} So we've got uh {disfmarker} I like the scroll , the scroll action and the {disfmarker} {gap} .
User Interface: I mean I'm just just thinking maybe if it was um circular um with the sort of {disfmarker} that sort of {vocalsound} {disfmarker} the sort of early idea we had , with the way that was more like that , whereas this is just a one-handed thing that you sort of almost wrap round the thumb . So you'd have your , you'd put your hand into there with the thumb there . And then your thumb would do {disfmarker} you'd have all the buttons sort of round here . And that I think could work . On any hand . If you just had it like wrapped round there . Left or right .
Project Manager: Yeah . Kinda like holding a {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Right . {vocalsound} That minimises it size-wise as well .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Minimise its size . It could be you know really quite small .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Then there's maybe another point of making it a two-in-one kind of thing . If we have a smaller a smaller device that actually fits into the big one . You give it the full functions in here , and just a couple of functions in there . Like your zap zapping device is just u channels up-down , uh volume , and on-off .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: Zapping functions .
Industrial Designer: That's it .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Maybe . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Could be good .
Project Manager: So two remotes in one . But then would be easier to lose one or the other .
Industrial Designer: That's right . Means the big one has to be sufficiently big . And perhaps heavy , so you can't move it around .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It actually is your coffee table .
Industrial Designer: Make it a piece of furniture .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound} yes . Yes , there you go .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Or a statue or something . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . Well we need to finish up here . Um {disfmarker} So for the next {disfmarker} So for the next um {disfmarker} before the next meeting w uh sh shall we work on {disfmarker} you're watching trends to see what what kind of new information we've got going on . Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: Manuel you're going to work on the components for for what we're gonna use .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: Let's go with our our uh rounded kind of fit in your hand {disfmarker} let's explore uh the the uh possibility of having the two-piece . So one for the the quick zapping um and possibly one you know with just that rounded part that fits into your hand . Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Alright .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And Ryan you work on um how how well they'll work with the us with the user . So both of those concepts .
User Interface: How well it'll work yeah .
Project Manager: And uh okay I think we made some good progress here .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Alright .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} see you in {disfmarker} I dunno . I gu I guess we'll take lunch in about uh half an hour . {vocalsound} Or I guess we'll be taking lunch shortly and then then in about half an hour after that we'll probably have another meeting .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . | |
doc_169 | Grad F: Test .
Postdoc G: OK .
Professor B: Let 's see , I should be Two .
PhD D: Up high {disfmarker}
Grad E: As close to your mouth as you can get it .
Professor B: La
PhD D: high as you can get .
Professor B: Is this channel one ?
Postdoc G: Yeah , on your upper lip .
PhD H: Channel one one one .
Professor B: Gee , OK . Yes . OK .
Grad E: OK , so for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} For people wearing the wireless mikes , like {disfmarker} like this one , I find the easiest way to wear it is sorta this {disfmarker} this sorta like that .
PhD H: This is {disfmarker} chan channel channel one one two three
Grad F: Channel five , channel five .
Professor B: Yeah . Mm - hmm . What do you do ,
Grad E: It 's actually a lot more comfortable then if you try to put it over your temples ,
Grad F: Test , test test .
Professor B: you do it higher ?
Grad E: so {disfmarker}
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Adam 's just trying to generate good uh data for the recognizer there .
Postdoc G: Yeah , I think we 're supposed to {disfmarker} that 's right .
Grad E: And then also , for {disfmarker} for all of them , if your boom is adjustable , the boom should be towards the corner of your mouth ,
Grad F: Test test .
PhD A: By the way , there was a bug . Yeah , i it wasn't using the proper
PhD D: Oh it was .
Grad E: and about a uh a thumb to a thumb and a half distance away from your mouth ,
PhD A: basically it wasn't adapting anything .
PhD D: Oh .
Grad E: so about like I 'm wearing it now .
PhD D: Oh that 's interesting . So why didn't you get the same results and the unadapted ?
Grad E: so so Jane , you could actually do even a little closer to your mouth ,
PhD H: It 's not always possible .
PhD A: Hmm ?
PhD D: Why didn't you get the same results and the unadapted ?
Postdoc G: I could {disfmarker} can this be adjuste like this ?
Grad E: but {disfmarker}
PhD A: Oh , because when it estimates the transformer pro produces like a single matrix or something .
Grad E: Yep .
Postdoc G: Is that @ @ ? OK , thank you .
Grad F: Adam , I 'm not {disfmarker}
PhD D: O Oh oh I see .
Grad F: uh , looks kinda low on channel five {disfmarker}
PhD D: I see , I see .
Professor B: OK .
Grad F: no ?
Grad E: Channel five , s speak again .
Grad F: Maybe not .
Postdoc G: Hello .
PhD A: Basically there were no counts
Grad E: Yeah , that 's alright .
Grad F: Hello ?
Grad E: I mean , we could {disfmarker} we could up the gain slightly if you wanted to .
Grad F: It 's OK ?
PhD H: Yeah .
Grad F: Is this OK ?
PhD H: OK .
PhD D: I see what you mean .
PhD C: Who 's channel B ?
Grad E: but {disfmarker} Uh , channel B is probably Liz .
PhD C: Uh oh .
PhD H: Uh channel B {disfmarker} I am channel B .
Professor B: You wanna close this ,
Postdoc G: Channel eight , eight .
Professor B: or
PhD C: No I
Grad E: Thank you .
PhD H: No , channel B .
PhD A: Hello , hello .
PhD C: yeah , yeah , you 're channel B .
PhD H: Yeah , yeah .
PhD C: So can you talk a bit ? I thought it might be too
PhD H: OK , yeah , channel B , one two three four five .
PhD C: OK .
Grad E: Yeah , it 's alright . So , the gain isn't real good .
Professor B: We 're recording ,
PhD C: OK .
Professor B: right ?
Grad E: OK , so we are recording .
PhD H: Ah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: OK .
Grad E: Um everyone should have at least two forms possibly three in front of you depending on who you are .
Grad F: Oh .
Grad E: Um we {disfmarker} we 're doing a new speaker form and you only have to spea fill out the speaker form once but everyone does need to do it . And so that 's the name , sex , email , et cetera .
PhD H: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: We {disfmarker} we had a lot of discussion about the variety of English and so on so if you don't know what to put just leave it blank . Um I {disfmarker} I designed the form and I don't know what to put for my own region ,
PhD A: Mmm .
Grad E: so
PhD D: California .
PhD A: I think {disfmarker}
Grad E: California .
PhD H: California .
PhD A: Um may I make one suggestion ? Instead of age put date of {disfmarker} uh year of birth
Grad E: Sure .
PhD A: because age will change , but The year of birth changes , you know , stays the same , usually .
Grad E: Oh .
PhD C: A actually , wait a minute ,
Grad E: Birth year ?
Postdoc G: Although on {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: shouldn't it be the other way around ?
PhD D: Not for me .
Postdoc G: course on the other {disfmarker} on the other hand you could {disfmarker} you view it as the age at the time of the {disfmarker}
PhD C: On the other side ,
PhD A: Well the thing is , if ten years from now you look at this form knowing that {disfmarker}
PhD C: yeah .
Postdoc G: Yes , but what we care about is the age at {disfmarker} at the recording date rather than the {disfmarker}
PhD C: O yeah .
PhD D: But there 's no other date on the form .
PhD C: W we don't care how they {disfmarker} old they really are .
PhD A: Well {disfmarker} well I don't know .
Postdoc G: Yes . {vocalsound} Unless we wanna send them a card .
Grad E: Well I guess it depends on how long the corpus is gonna be collected for .
PhD A: Anyway .
Postdoc G: Yeah , that 's true .
PhD C: I still don't see the problem .
Grad E: Either way yeah I think {disfmarker} I think age is alright
PhD A: OK .
Grad E: and then um there will be attached to this a point or two these forms uh so that you 'll be able to extract the date off that
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: so , anyway . And so then you also have a digits form which needs to be filled out every time , the speaker form only once , the digit form every time even if you don't read the digits you have to fill out the digits form so that we know that you were at the meeting . OK ? And then also if you haven't filled one out already you do have to fill out a consent form . And that should just be one person whose name I don't know . OK ?
Grad F: Do you want this {pause} Adam ?
Grad E: Uh sure . Thank you .
Professor B: So uh
Grad E: OK so should we do agenda items ?
Professor B: Uh oh that 's a good idea . I shouldn't run the meeting .
Grad E: Uh well I have {disfmarker} I wanna talk about new microphones and wireless stuff .
Postdoc G: Mmm .
Grad E: And I 'm sure Liz and Andreas wanna talk about recognition results . Anything else ?
PhD C: I guess {disfmarker} what time do we have to leave ? Three thirty ?
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah ,
Grad E: Why don't you go first then .
PhD C: so .
Professor B: Yeah , good idea .
PhD A: OK .
PhD C: Um Well , I {disfmarker} I sent out an email s couple hours ago so um with Andreas ' help um Andreas put together a sort of no frills recognizer which is uh gender - dependent but like no adaptation , no cross - word models , no trigrams {disfmarker} a bigram recognizer and that 's trained on Switchboard which is telephone conversations . Um and thanks to Don 's help wh who {disfmarker} Don took the first meeting that Jane had transcribed and um {vocalsound} you know separated {disfmarker} used the individual channels we segmented it in into the segments that Jane had used and uh Don sampled that so {disfmarker} so eight K um and then we ran up to I guess the first twenty minutes , up to synch time of one two zero zero so is that {disfmarker} that 's twenty minutes or so ? Um yeah because I guess there 's some ,
Grad E: Or so .
PhD C: and Don can talk to Jane about this , there 's some bug in the actual synch time file that ah uh I 'm {disfmarker} we 're not sure where it came from but stuff after that was a little messier . Anyway so it 's twenty minutes and I actually
Grad E: Hmm .
PhD C: um
Grad E: I {disfmarker} was that {disfmarker} did that {disfmarker} did that recording have the glitch in the middle ?
Postdoc G: I 'm puzzled by that . I {disfmarker} oh {disfmarker} oh , I see .
PhD C: There 's {disfmarker} there 's a {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: Oh there was a glitch somewhere .
PhD C: yeah , so that actually um
Grad F: Was it twenty minutes in ,
PhD C: if it was twenty minutes in then I don't know
Postdoc G: I forgot about that .
Grad F: I thought {disfmarker}
PhD A: Well it was interesting ,
Postdoc G: Well , I mean , they {disfmarker}
PhD A: suddenly {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the overall error rate when we first ran it was like eighty percent
Grad E: I don't remember when it is .
Postdoc G: but I was able to can transcribe
PhD A: but i looking at {disfmarker} the first sentences looked much better than that and then suddenly it turned very bad and then we noticed that the reference was always one off with the {disfmarker} it was actually recognized
PhD C: Wel
Grad E: Oh no .
Grad F: Yeah , that might be {disfmarker} that might be {disfmarker} that might be my fault .
Postdoc G: Wow .
PhD A: so
Grad E: Oh so that was just a parsing mismatch .
Grad F: I 'm not {disfmarker}
PhD A: OK .
PhD C: No actually it was {disfmarker} yeah i it was a complicated bug because they were sometimes one off and then sometimes totally random so um
Grad F: yeah , I was pretty certain that it worked up until that time ,
Postdoc G: Oh . That 's not good .
PhD C: Yeah
PhD A: OK .
PhD C: so that 's what we have
Grad E: Alright .
Grad F: so
PhD C: but that {disfmarker} that will be completely gone if this synch time problem
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Grad E: The {disfmarker} the glitch
PhD A: So {disfmarker} so we have everything recognized but we scored only the first uh whatever , up to that time to
Postdoc G: And the only glitch {disfmarker}
Grad E: yeah .
Postdoc G: yeah .
PhD C: So you guys know .
Professor B: S sorry I haven't seen the email ,
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad E: Th - the
Postdoc G: The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} wait
Professor B: what was the score ?
PhD C: So here 's the actual copy of the email
Postdoc G: we should say something about the glitch . He {disfmarker} he can say something about the glitch .
PhD C: um oh OK
Grad E: yeah .
Postdoc G: Cuz it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} h it 's {disfmarker} it 's very small {disfmarker}
PhD C: so does this glitch occur at other {disfmarker}
Grad E: There {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there 's an acoustic glitch that occurs where um the channels get slightly asynchronized
Postdoc G: very small . Yep .
PhD C: Oh .
PhD A: Mmm .
PhD C: Right .
Grad E: so the {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that problem has gone away in the original driver believe it or not when the SSH key gen ran the driver paused for a fraction of a second
Professor B: Hmm .
Grad F: Hmm .
Grad E: and so the channels get a little asynchronous and so if you listen to it in the middle there 's a little part where it starts doing {disfmarker} doing click sounds .
Professor B: So {disfmarker}
PhD C: And is it only once that that happens ?
Grad E: But yeah
PhD C: OK .
Grad E: it {disfmarker} right once in the middle .
PhD C: There 's {disfmarker} the previous page has some more information about sort of what was wrong
Professor B: so {disfmarker} so un unsurprisingly Adam is the golden voice ,
PhD C: but
Grad E: Um But that shouldn't affect anything
PhD C: OK so that 's actually
Postdoc G: S and it {disfmarker}
Professor B: you see this here ?
PhD C: It {disfmarker} y it 's {disfmarker}
Grad E: yeah yeah " bah "
PhD C: OK no {disfmarker}
PhD A: Oh , and {disfmarker}
PhD C: What happens is it actually affects the script that Don {disfmarker}
PhD D: Huh .
PhD C: I mean if we know about it then I guess it could always be checked for it
Grad E: Well the acoustic one shouldn't do anything .
PhD C: but they
Grad F: Yeah , I don't know exactly what affected it
Postdoc G: I agree . I agree .
PhD A: I {disfmarker} I have {disfmarker}
Grad F: but I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll talk to you about it ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad E: But I {disfmarker} I do remember {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad F: I 'll show you the point .
Postdoc G: Yeah . It {disfmarker} it had no effect on my transcription ,
PhD A: Mmm .
Postdoc G: you know , I mean I {disfmarker} I had no trouble hearing it and {disfmarker} and having time bins
Grad E: I do remember seeing once the transcriber produce an incorrect XML file where one of the synch numbers was incorrect .
Postdoc G: but there was a {disfmarker} Oh .
PhD C: Well , the {disfmarker} the synch time {disfmarker} the synch numbers have more significant digits than they should ,
Grad F: That 's what happened .
Postdoc G: Oh .
PhD H: Yeah .
Grad E: Where {disfmarker} where they weren't monotonic .
Grad F: There was {disfmarker} yeah , I mean {disfmarker}
PhD C: right ? There 's things that are l in smaller increments than a frame .
PhD H: Yeah .
Postdoc G: Oh , interesting .
PhD C: And so then , I mean you look at that and it 's got you know more than three significant digits in a synch time then that can't be right
Grad E: Oh OK so that 's
Grad F: Hmm .
Postdoc G: Oh .
PhD A: Mmm .
PhD C: so anyway it 's {disfmarker} it 's just {disfmarker}
Grad E: yeah sounds like a bug .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
PhD C: that 's why we only have twenty minutes but there 's a significant amount of {disfmarker}
Grad F: Non - zero ? Um there are like more {disfmarker} cuz there 's a lot of zeros I tacked on just because of the way the script ran ,
Grad E: The other one I saw was that it yeah .
Grad F: I mean but there were there was a point .
PhD C: Yeah that was fine . That {disfmarker} that was OK .
Grad E: The other one I saw was non non - monotonic synch times
Grad F: OK .
Grad E: and that definitely indicra indicates a bug .
Grad F: Uh .
PhD C: Well that would really be a problem , yeah . So anyway these are just the ones that are the prebug for one meeting .
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD C: um and what 's {disfmarker} which {disfmarker}
Grad E: So that 's very encouraging .
PhD C: this is really encouraging cuz this is free recognition ,
Professor B: Hmm .
PhD H: Yeah .
Professor B: Cool .
PhD A: Mmm .
PhD C: there 's no I mean the language model for Switchboard is totally different so you can see some like this Trent Lott which
PhD D: Trent Lott .
PhD C: um I mean these are sort of funny ones ,
PhD D: It 'll get those though .
PhD C: there 's a lot of perfect ones and good ones and all the references , I mean you can read them and when we get more results you can look through and see
Grad E: I and as I said I would like to look at the lattices
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: but um it 's pretty good .
Grad E: because it sounded like even the ones it got wrong it sort of got it right ?
PhD C: Well so I guess we can generate
Grad E: Sounds likes ?
PhD A: There are a fair number of errors that are , you know where {disfmarker} got the plural S wrong or the inflection on the verb wrong .
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: um
Grad E: Yeah , and who cares ? And {disfmarker} and there were lots of {disfmarker} of course the " uh uh " - s , " in on " - s " of uh " - s .
PhD A: Mmm , so if {disfmarker}
PhD C: there 's {disfmarker} No those are actually
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: a lot of the errors I think are out of vocabulary ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: so is it like PZM is three words , it 's PZM ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: I mean there 's nothing There 's no language model for PZM or
Grad E: Right . Ri - ri right .
PhD C: um
Grad E: Did you say there 's no language for PZM ?
PhD C: No language model , I mean those {disfmarker}
Grad E: Do you mean {disfmarker} so every time someone says PZM it 's an error ? Maybe we shouldn't say PZM in these meetings .
PhD C: Well {disfmarker} well there 's all kinds of other stuff like Jimlet and I mean um anyway there {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah , that 's right , Jimlet .
Professor B: Well , we don't even know what that means ,
PhD C: so {vocalsound} but this is really encouraging because
Professor B: so I
Grad E: Yeah , that 's right .
PhD C: so , I mean the bottom line is even though it 's not a huge amount of data um it should be uh reasonable to actually run recognition and be like within the scope of {disfmarker} of r reasonable s you know Switchboard this is like h about how well we do on Switchboard - two data with the Switchboard - one trained {disfmarker} mostly trained recognizer
Grad E: Right .
PhD C: and Switchboard - two is {disfmarker} got sort of a different population of speakers and a different topic
Grad E: Excellent .
PhD C: and they 're talking about things in the news that happened after Switchboard - one so there was @ @ so that 's great .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah so we 're in better shape than we were say when we did {disfmarker} had the ninety - three workshop
PhD C: Um
Professor B: and we were all getting like seventy percent error on Switchboard .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Oh yeah
Professor B: you know
PhD C: I mean this is really ,
PhD A: Mmm .
PhD C: and thanks to Andreas who , I mean this is a
PhD A: Mmm .
Grad E: Well especially for the very first run , I mean you {disfmarker}
PhD A: Oh it 's the {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: eh um
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: yeah
Grad E: the first run I ran of Switchboard I got a hundred twenty percent word error but
PhD C: So and what al also this means is that
Postdoc G: Right .
PhD C: um
Grad E: Not Switchboard ,
PhD A: Well it 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: I mean there 's a bunch of things in this note to various people
Grad E: uh Broadcast News .
PhD C: especially I guess um with Jane that {disfmarker} that would help for {disfmarker} since we have this new data now uh in order to go from the transcripts more easily to um just the words that the recognizer would use for scoring . I had to deal with some of it by hand but I think a lot of it can be automated s by {disfmarker}
Professor B: Oh one thing I guess I didn't get so you know the language model was straight from {disfmarker} from bigram from Switchboard the acoustic models were also from Switchboard or {disfmarker} or
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: So they didn't have anything from this acoustic data in yet ?
Postdoc G: That 's amazing .
Grad E: Yeah , so that 's great .
PhD C: No .
Professor B: OK .
PhD C: And actually {disfmarker} we actually um used Switchboard telephone bandwidth models
Postdoc G: That 's amazing .
PhD A: Well that 's {disfmarker} those are the only we ones there are ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: which I guess
PhD D: I was just gonna say ,
PhD C: so that 's the on that 's the only acoustic training data that we have a lot of
PhD D: yeah .
PhD A: I mean
Grad E: Yeah .
PhD A: Right .
PhD C: and I guess Ramana , so a guy at SRI said that um there 's not a huge amount of difference going from {disfmarker}
Professor B: Right .
PhD C: it 's {disfmarker} it 's not like we probably lose a huge amount but we won't know because we don't have any full band models for s conversational speech .
PhD D: It 's probably not as bad as going f using full band models on telephone band speech
PhD C: So .
PhD A: Oh yeah .
PhD C: Right .
PhD D: right ?
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah ,
PhD C: Right , so it 's {disfmarker} so
Professor B: but for Broadcast News when we {disfmarker} we played around between the two there wasn't a huge loss .
Grad E: Right , it was not a big deal .
PhD C: Yeah
PhD A: I should {disfmarker} I should say that {disfmarker} the language model is not just Switchboard
PhD C: so I wou so that 's good .
Grad E: Although combining em worked well .
PhD A: it 's also {disfmarker} I mean there 's uh actually more data is from Broadcast News but with a little less weight
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD A: uh because
Professor B: Uh - huh .
PhD C: Like Trent Lott must have been from
PhD A: mm - hmm , right .
PhD C: I guess {vocalsound} Switchboard was before
PhD A: Um By the way just {disfmarker} for fun we also ran ,
PhD C: uh .
Professor B: Good point .
PhD A: I mean our complete system starts by doing ge a gender detection
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: so just for the heck of it I ran that
Grad E: And it said a hundred percent male ?
PhD A: um and it might be reassuring for everybody to know that it got all the genders right .
PhD C: The j
PhD A: Yeah so
Grad E: Oh it did ?
Postdoc G: Oh that 's {disfmarker} I 'm glad .
Grad E: It got all two genders ?
PhD C: Yeah but you know Jane and Adam have you kn about equal performance
PhD A: Yeah . Yes .
PhD C: and uh and that 's interesting cuz I think the {disfmarker} their language models are quite different so and I {disfmarker} I 'm pretty sure from listening to Eric that , you know given the words he was saying and given his pronunciation that the reason that he 's so much worse is the lapel .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: Right .
Postdoc G: That makes a lot of sense ,
PhD C: So it 's nice now if we can just sort of eliminate the lapel one when {disfmarker} when we get new microphones
Postdoc G: yeah . Very possible .
Professor B: Yeah I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would bet on that too
PhD C: that would be worth it
Professor B: cuz he certainly in that {disfmarker} when as a {disfmarker} as a burp user he was {disfmarker} he was a pretty uh strong one .
PhD C: um Yeah
Grad E: Sheep .
PhD C: he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he sounded to me just from {disfmarker} he sounded like a ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: what 's it a sheep or a goat ?
Professor B: Sheep .
Grad E: A sheep .
PhD C: Sheep ,
Grad E: Baah .
Professor B: Yeah . Sheep is good .
PhD C: right . Sounded good .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Right so um so I guess the good news is that
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: and {disfmarker} and again this is without a lot of the sort of bells and whistles that we c can do with the SRI system and we 'll have more data and we can also start to maybe adapt the language models once we have enough meetings . So this is only twenty minutes of one meeting with no {disfmarker} no tailoring at all .
PhD A: I mean clearly there are um with just a small amount of uh actual meeting transcriptions uh thrown into the language model you can probably do quite a bit better because the {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah . The voca the vocabulary especially
Grad E: Or just dictionary .
PhD C: yeah .
PhD A: Not that much the vocabulary actually
PhD C: Yeah , so .
PhD A: I think {disfmarker} um well we have to see but {disfmarker} it 's uh {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah . It 's pretty good um so then
Professor B: Have to add PZM and so on
Grad E: And I have to try it on the far field mike
Professor B: but
PhD C: PZM
Grad E: yeah .
PhD C: and then there 's things like for the transcription I got when someone has a digit in the transcript I don't know if they said , you know one one or eleven and I don't know if they said Tcl or TCL . there 's things like that where , you know the um we 'll probably have to ask the transcribers to indicate some of those kinds of things but in general it was really good and I 'm hoping {disfmarker} and this is {disfmarker} this is good news because that means the force alignments should be good and if the force alignments , I mean it 's good news anyway but if the force alignments are good we can get all kinds of information . For example about , you know prosodic information and speaker overlaps and so forth directly from the aligned times . Um so that 'll be something that actually in order to assess the forced alignment um we need s some linguists or some people to look at it and say are these boundaries in about the right place . Because it 's just gonna give us time marks
PhD D: But you know {disfmarker}
Grad E: Well we 've done that for one meeting .
PhD C: so . For forced alignment .
Grad E: Uh oh oh f not for words
PhD C: Ye - right .
Grad E: I 'm sorry just for overlaps is we did it for not {disfmarker} not for words .
PhD C: Right . So this would be like if you take the words um you know and force align them on all the individual close talk uh close talking mikes then how good are these sort of in reality
Grad E: Right .
PhD C: and then I was thinking it {disfmarker}
Grad E: So we might want to take twenty minutes and do a closer word level transcription . Maybe actually mark the word boundaries .
PhD C: Oh or {disfmarker} i have someone look at the alignments uh maybe a linguist who can say um you know roughly if these are OK and how far away they are .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Um but I think it 's gotta be pretty good because otherwise the word recognition would be really b crummy .
Grad E: Right , right .
PhD C: It wouldn't necessarily be the other way around , if the wor word recognition was crummy the alignment might be OK but if the word recognition is this good the alignment should be pretty good . So that 's about it .
Professor B: I r
PhD D: I wonder if this is a good thing or a bad thing though , I mean if we 're pr
Grad E: That we 're starting so well ?
PhD D: yeah if we 're producing a database that everybody 's gonna do well on
Professor B: Oh
Grad E: Don't worry about it w d that 's that 's the close talking mikes . Try it on the P Z Ms and {disfmarker} and
Professor B: Yeah , which {disfmarker} I would {disfmarker} which {disfmarker} well n n n n
PhD D: So the real value of the database is these ?
PhD H: Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .
Grad E: Yeah , abso well no but
Professor B: I mean there 's still just the w the percentages and , I mean they 're not {disfmarker} a as we 've talked about before there 's probably overlaps
PhD C: This i yeah . This is not that good .
Professor B: there 's probably overlaps in {disfmarker} in uh in fair number in Switchboard as well so but {disfmarker} but there 's other phenomena , it 's a meeting , it 's a different thing and there 's lots of stuff to learn with the close talking mikes but uh yeah certainly I 'd like to see as soon as we could , I mean maybe get some of the glitches out of the way but soon as we could how well it does with say with the P Z Ms or maybe even one of the
PhD C: Right .
Professor B: and uh see if it 's , you know is it a hundred twenty percent or maybe it 's not maybe if with some adaptation you get this down to fifty percent or forty - five percent or something and {disfmarker} and then if for the PZM it 's seventy or something like that that 's actually something we could sort of work with a little bit
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: so
PhD C: No I think it 's really , I mean this way we least have a baseline we know that for instance the transcripts are very good so once you can get to the words that the recognizer which is a total subset of the things you need to understand the {disfmarker} the text um yeah they 're pretty good so and {disfmarker} and it 's converting automatically from the XML to the chopping up the wave forms and so forth it 's not the case that the end of one utterance is in the next segment and things like that which we had more problems with in Switchboard so that 's good . And um let 's see there was one more thing I wanted to {disfmarker} to mention {disfmarker} I can't remember um Sorry can't remember . anyway it 's {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: Congratulations is really great .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: well it was , I mean I really didn't do this myself
Grad E: Yeah , it 's really good .
PhD C: so Andreas set up this recognizer and {disfmarker} by the way the recognizer all the files I 'm moving to SRI and running everything there so I brought back just these result files and people can look at them um so
PhD A: We {disfmarker} we talked about setting up the SRI recognizer here . That 's {disfmarker} you know if {disfmarker} if there are more machines um uh here plus people can {disfmarker} could run their own uh you know variants of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of the recognition {pause} runs um certainly doable . Um .
Professor B: Yeah and {disfmarker} well certainly if the recognition as opposed to training , yeah .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: Seems reasonable .
Postdoc G: I need t Hmm . I need to ask one question .
PhD A: Yeah .
Postdoc G: Which is um so this issue {vocalsound} of the uh legalistic aspects of the pre - sent you know pre - adapted {disfmarker} Yeah , well , so what I mean is um the {disfmarker} uh the data that you take into SRI , first {disfmarker} first question , you 're maintaining it in {disfmarker} in a place that wouldn't be publicly readable that {disfmarker} that kind of stuff , right ?
PhD A: U um
PhD C: From the outside world or
Postdoc G: By uh people uh who are not associated with this project .
PhD A: Oh .
Grad E: It 's human subjects issues , I told you about that .
PhD C: Um oh .
Postdoc G: Exactly .
PhD C: Well OK we have n no names . Although I sh um
Grad E: That {disfmarker} that 's not the issue ,
PhD C: de audio data itself ?
Grad E: it 's just the audio data itself , until people have a chance to edit it .
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm , exactly .
PhD C: Uh so well I can {disfmarker} I can protect my directories through there .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
PhD C: Right now they 're not {disfmarker} they 're in the speech group directories which {disfmarker} so I will {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: Great .
PhD C: I didn't know that actually .
Professor B: Yeah so we just have to go through this process of having people approve the transcriptions ,
PhD C: Yeah OK .
Professor B: say it 's OK .
PhD C: Right OK .
Postdoc G: Yeah , we had to get them to approve em and then i cuz {disfmarker} cuz the other question I was gonna ask is if we 're having um you know it 's but this {disfmarker} this meeting that you have , no problem cuz I {disfmarker} I well I mean I {disfmarker} I speak for myself
Grad E: It 's us .
Postdoc G: but {disfmarker} but I think that we didn't do anything that but well anyway so {vocalsound} uh I wouldn't be too concerned about it with respect to that although we should clear it with Eric and Dan of course but these results are based on data which haven't had the uh haven't had the chance to be reviewed by the subjects
PhD C: That 's true .
Postdoc G: and I don't know how that stands , I mean if you {disfmarker} if you get fantastic results and it 's involving {comment} data which {disfmarker} which later end up being lessened by , you know certain elisions , then I don't know but I wanted to raise that issue ,
Professor B: Well we ,
Postdoc G: that 's all .
Professor B: I mean once we get all this streamlined it may be sh it {disfmarker} hopefully it will be fairly quick but we get the transcriptions , people approve them and so on it 's just that we 're
Grad E: Alright we need to work at a system for doing that approval so that we can send people the transcripts
Postdoc G: Great .
PhD A: Mmm .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Grad E: and get back any bleeps that they want
PhD C: Yeah actually the bleeps are also an issue I thought .
Professor B: It 's gonna be a rare thing that there 's a bleep for the most part .
PhD A: U uh actually I had a question about the downsampling , um I don't know who , I mean how this was done but is {disfmarker} is there {disfmarker} are there any um {vocalsound} issues with downsampling
PhD C: Don did this .
PhD A: because I know that the recognizer um that we use h can do it sort of on the fly um so we wouldn't have to have it eh you know do it uh explicitly beforehand . And is there any um i are there other d sev uh is there more than one way to do the downsampling where one might be better than another ?
Grad F: There are lots of w {vocalsound} there are lots of ways to do the downsampling um different filters to put on ,
PhD A: OK . Right . OK .
Grad F: like anti - aliasing stuff .
PhD A: So {disfmarker} so the {disfmarker} th
Grad E: I don't think we even know which one I assume you 're using syncat to do it ?
Grad F: No , I 'm using uh SN SND uh are resample .
Grad E: Or sound resample ?
PhD C: Re - re ref
Grad E: Resample .
PhD C: yeah .
Grad E: Yeah and Dan 's archaic acronyms .
Grad F: RSMP . Yeah , I don't really .
PhD C: Missing all the vowels .
Grad F: I just {disfmarker} yeah I found it .
PhD C: Some of the vowels ,
Grad E: Not all of them .
PhD C: almost all the vowels , that 's the hard part .
PhD A: So {disfmarker} so the other thing we should try is to just take the original wave forms ,
Grad E: And a few of the consonants .
PhD A: I mean segment them but not downsample them .
PhD C: Yeah we could {disfmarker} we could try that and {disfmarker} and compare
PhD A: And {disfmarker} and feed them to {disfmarker} feed them to the SRI recognizer and see if {disfmarker} if the SRI front - end does something .
Grad F: Yeah , that 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad E: I suspect that 's sort of premature optimization , but Sure .
PhD C: We can try it . I {disfmarker} I only downsampled them first cuz I was
PhD A: Well {disfmarker}
Grad F: I mean that 's just one line {disfmarker} that 's one line of code to comment at
PhD C: yeah
PhD A: Right and {disfmarker} and it doesn't {disfmarker} is no more work {vocalsound} for um you know for us .
Grad F: so
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD C: Well they 're just bigger to transfer , that 's why I s downsampled them before but
PhD A: Well but they 're only twice as big so
PhD C: Well I mean that was {disfmarker} if it 's the same then we can downsample here
PhD A: I mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's just a
PhD C: but if it 's {disfmarker}
Grad F: Although those eighty meg files take a while to copy into my directories
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad F: so , but no , I mean it 's not {disfmarker} i it wouldn't be a problem if you 're interested in it {disfmarker}
PhD C: We could try that .
PhD A: Yeah I mean it would be uh you know it would probably take uh about um you know
Grad F: it would {disfmarker}
PhD A: minus the transfer time it would {disfmarker} it would take uh you know ten minutes to try and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and
Grad F: Yeah .
Grad E: It 's about a fifty minute drive , right ?
PhD A: And {disfmarker} and if for some reason we see that it works better then we might investigate why
PhD C: Well it takes more disk space too so I was just {disfmarker}
PhD A: and , you know , what {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad F: Mmm . In the front - end we could do that .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: So you just train {disfmarker} just different filters
Grad F: Yeah , I {disfmarker}
Professor B: and so you 're just wondering whether the filter is
Grad F: Yeah , I can imagine it would be {disfmarker}
PhD A: Right . Right .
PhD C: So we could try that with this particular twenty minutes of speech and sort of see if there 's any differences .
Grad F: I mean I guess there 's some {disfmarker}
PhD A: You know a at some point someone might have optimized whatever filtering is done for the actual recognition um performance .
Grad F: Hmm .
PhD A: So in other words right ,
Professor B: Right .
PhD A: so
Grad E: It just seems to me that , you know small changes to the language model and the vocabulary will so swamp that that it may be premature to worry about that . I mean so one is a half a percent better than the other I don't think that gives you any information .
PhD C: Well it 's just as easy to {disfmarker} to give you the sixteen K individual ,
Grad E: Yep .
PhD C: it was just more disk space you know for storing them
Professor B: Are you {disfmarker} are you using uh uh mel cepstrum or PLP over there ?
PhD C: so
PhD A: Mel cepstrum .
Professor B: So probably doesn't matter .
PhD C: Well we could try .
Grad F: There 's {disfmarker} there 's your answer .
Professor B: But {disfmarker} but it wouldn't hurt to try ,
PhD C: Could easily try
PhD A: That 's what I would assume but you never know ,
Professor B: yeah .
PhD C: so
PhD A: you know .
Professor B: Sure . No the reason I say this
Postdoc G: Just {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .
Professor B: PLP uses uh auto - regressive filtering and uh modeling and so it can be sensitive to the kind of filtering that you 're doing
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: but uh uh mel cepstrum uh might not {disfmarker} b you wouldn't expect to be so much but
PhD C: Well we can try it if you generate like the same set of files just up to that point where we stopped anyway and just sti stick them somewhere
Grad F: Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's really not a problem .
PhD A: Actually , no .
PhD C: and I 'll rerun it with
PhD A: Don't stop . Don't stop at that part because we 're actually using the entire conversation to estimate the speaker parameters ,
Grad F: Keep going . Yeah .
PhD A: so shouldn't use {disfmarker} you should s you know , get
Grad F: Yeah , I mean I 'll {disfmarker} I have to do is eh e the reference file would stay the same ,
PhD C: OK .
PhD A: Right .
Grad F: it 's just the individual segments would be approximately twice as long
PhD A: Mmm .
PhD C: Right . Right .
Grad F: and I could just replace them with the bigger ones in the directory ,
PhD A: Right .
PhD C: I mean I corrected all {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: that 's not a problem .
PhD C: I mean I hand - edited the whole {disfmarker} the whole meeting so that can be run it 's just {disfmarker} Once we get the {disfmarker} the bug out .
PhD A: Mmm .
Postdoc G: One {disfmarker} one question which is I {disfmarker} I had the impression {comment} from this {disfmarker} from this meeting that w that I transcribed that um that there was already automatic downsampling occurring ,
PhD A: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Postdoc G: is that I thought that in order to
Grad E: Yep .
Postdoc G: so it was {disfmarker} so it 's like there 's already down
Grad E: There 's one level that 's already happening right here .
Professor B: This is being recorded at forty - eight kilohertz . Which is more that anybody needs
Postdoc G: OK .
Grad E: Right .
Grad F: Oh .
Grad E: And it gets downsampled to sixteen .
Postdoc G: OK .
Professor B: so
PhD C: And that 's actually said in your meeting ,
Grad F: Hmm .
Postdoc G: Oh OK .
PhD C: that 's how I know that .
Postdoc G: That 's exactly , and that 's how I know it .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: I {disfmarker} I {vocalsound} It 's like are we downsampling to sixteen ?
Professor B: It 's a digital audio orientation for the board
PhD C: Right .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor B: it 's in the monitor so it 's
PhD C: Thank God it 's not {vocalsound} more than that .
Grad E: So {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: And I have no idea what filter it 's using ,
Grad F: Is eight kilohertz {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is eighty kilohertz generally accepted as like standard for voice ?
Grad E: so
Professor B: For telephone stuff .
Grad E: Telephone .
PhD D: Telephone .
Grad F: Yeah that 's what I was gonna say , I mean like {disfmarker}
Professor B: So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's just that they were operating from Switchboard which was a completely telephone database
Grad F: so Oh , I see , so .
Professor B: and so that was a standard for that sixteen s
Grad F: OK .
Grad E: So sixteen seems to be pretty typical for with this sort of thing .
Professor B: Sixteen is more common for {disfmarker} for uh broadband stuff that isn't {disfmarker}
Grad F: Right .
Grad E: That isn't music .
Professor B: that isn't music and isn't telephone ,
PhD C: And I guess if you 're comparing like {disfmarker} uh if you wanna run recognition on the PZM stuff you would want you don't want to downsample the wh that
Professor B: yeah .
Grad E: Why is that ?
Professor B: I don't know .
PhD C: right ? Well I don I mean if it 's any better
Professor B: No actually I would think that you would {disfmarker} you would get better {disfmarker} you 'd get better high frequencies in the local mike .
Grad E: All the way around I 'd think .
Professor B: Uh but who knows ? I mean we do {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we wanna find all this stuff out ,
PhD C: Yeah well we could try it .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor B: we don't know .
Grad E: We 're gonna have plenty of low frequency on the P Z Ms with the fans .
PhD C: OK . Yeah .
Professor B: Uh yeah . Yeah .
PhD C: Oh yeah there was just one more thing I wanted to say which is totally unrelated to the recognition except that um well {disfmarker} well it 's sort of related but um good news also uh I got {disfmarker} well Chuck Fillmore agreed to record meetings but he had too many people in his meetings and that 's too bad cuz they 're very animated and but uh Jerry also agreed so uh we 're starting on {disfmarker} on
PhD A: They 're less animated .
PhD C: Well but he has fewer {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he won't have more than eight and it 's a meeting on even deeper understanding , EDU , so that sounds interesting . As a compliment to our front - end meeting
Grad E: Dot EDU ?
PhD C: and um so that 's gonna start Monday and one of the things that I was realizing is um it would be really great if anyone has any ideas on some kind of time synchronous way that people in the meeting can make a comment to the person whose gonna transcribe it or {disfmarker} or put a {vocalsound} push a button or something when they wanna make a note about " oh boy you should probably erase those last few " or uh " wait I want this not to be recorded now " or uh something like that s
Professor B: Weren't we gonna do something with a pad at one point ?
Postdoc G: The cross pads ?
Grad E: Yeah , we could do it with the cross pads .
PhD C: Cuz I was thinking you know if {disfmarker} if the person who sets up the meeting isn't there and it 's a group that we don't know um and this came up talking to {disfmarker} to Jerry also that you know is there any way for them to indicate {disfmarker} to make sure that the qu request that they have that they make explicitly get addressed somehow
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: so I don't know if anyone has ideas or {disfmarker} you could even write down " oh it 's about three twenty five and " {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well what I was just suggesting is {disfmarker} is we have these {disfmarker} this cross pad just for this purpose
Grad E: Yeah , and use that .
Professor B: and just use that
Grad E: Not a bad idea .
Professor B: and if we sink it in {disfmarker}
PhD C: That would be great .
Professor B: The other thing is eh
PhD C: That be great .
Professor B: I don't know if you know this or if it 's a question for the mail to Dan but is this thing of two eight channel boards a maximum for this setup or could we go to a third board ?
Grad E: I don't know . I don't know . I 'll send mail to Dan and ask . I {disfmarker} I think that it 's the maximum we can do without a lot of effort because it 's one board with two digital channels .
Professor B: Oh it is one board .
Grad E: E eight each . So it {disfmarker} it takes two fibers in to the one board . And so w I think if we wanna do that {disfmarker} more than that we 'd have to have two boards , and then you have the synchronization issue .
Professor B: But that 's a question because that would {disfmarker} if it was possible cuz it is i you know already we have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a group of people in this room that cannot all be miked
Grad E: Right .
Professor B: and it 's not just cuz we haven't been to the store , right it 's {disfmarker}
PhD D: What is the limit on each of those f fiber channels , is it the
Grad E: Eight .
PhD D: It just {disfmarker} it 's eight channels come in , does it have do with the sampling rate ?
Grad E: It 's eight . I have no idea . But each {disfmarker} each fiber channel has eight {disfmarker} eight channels and there are two ch two fibers that go in to the card .
Professor B: It might be a hard limitation ,
Grad E: So
Professor B: I mean one thing is it {disfmarker} the whole thing as I said is {disfmarker} is all structured in terms of forty - eight kilohertz sampling so that pushes requirements up a bit
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor B: but
PhD D: I was just wondering if {disfmarker} if that could change .
Grad E: I mean then we 'd also have to get another ADD and another mixer and all that sort of stuff .
PhD D: If we could drop that .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: So I {disfmarker} I 'll send a mail to Dan and ask him .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: OK on the uh are we done with that ? So the oth topic is uh getting more mikes and different mikes , so I got a quote um We can fit {disfmarker} we have room for one more wireless and the wireless , this unit here is three fifty {disfmarker} three hundred fifty dollars , it {disfmarker} I didn't realize but we also have to get a tuner {disfmarker} the receiver {disfmarker} the other end , that 's uh four thirty um and then also
PhD C: For {disfmarker} for each ?
PhD D: Wow .
PhD C: I mean the tuner is four thirty for each .
Grad E: Yep .
PhD C: Wow .
Grad E: And we just need one more so {disfmarker} so
Professor B: Yeah at least w we got the good ones .
Grad E: Yeah . So that 's you know something like seven hundred eighty bucks for one more of these .
Professor B: Yeah . OK .
Grad E: Um and then also um It turns out that the connector that this thing uses is proprietary of Sony
PhD D: Oh .
Grad E: believe it or not and Sony only sells this headset .
Postdoc G: Mmm .
Grad E: So if we wanna use a different set {disfmarker} headset the solution that the guy suggested and they {disfmarker} apparently lots of people have done is Sony will sell you the jack with just wires coming out the end and then you can buy a headset that has pigtail and solder it yourself . And that 's the other solution and so the jacks are forty bucks apiece and the {disfmarker} he recommended um a crown CM three eleven AE headset for two hundred bucks apiece .
Professor B: There isn't this some sort of thing that plugs in , you actually have to go and do the soldering yourself ?
Grad E: Becau - the reason is the only {disfmarker} only thing you can get that will plug into this is this mike or just the connector .
Professor B: No I understand . The reason I ask is these sort of handmade uh wiring jobs fall apart in use so the other thing is to see if we can uh get them to do a custom job and put it together for this .
Grad E: Oh I 'm sure they would , they would just charge us ,
PhD D: Well , and they 'd probably want quantity too ,
Grad E: so .
Professor B: Well
PhD D: they 'd
Professor B: no they 'll just charge us more , so it 's {disfmarker} this
PhD D: Mmm .
Grad E: So {disfmarker} so my question is should we go ahead and get na nine identical head - mounted crown mikes ?
Professor B: Not before having one come here and have some people try it out .
Grad E: OK .
Professor B: Because there 's no point in doing that if it 's not gonna be any better .
Grad E: So why don't we get one of these with the crown with a different headset ?
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: And {disfmarker} and see if that works .
Professor B: And see if it 's preferable and if it is then we 'll get more .
PhD C: Comfort .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Cuz I mean I think the microphones are OK it 's just the {disfmarker} the
Grad E: Right , it 's just they 're not comfortable to wear .
Professor B: Right .
PhD C: Could make our own handbands and
Grad E: Um , and he said they don't have any of these in stock but they have them in LA and so it will take about a week to get here .
Professor B: Yeah well it 's {disfmarker}
Grad E: Um so OK to just go order ?
Professor B: We 're in this for the long term , yeah . Just order it .
Grad E: OK
PhD C: It 's a lot of money for a handband .
Grad E: and who is the contact if I wanna do an invoice
Grad F: Yeah .
Grad E: cuz I think that 's how we did it before .
Professor B: Uh we 'll do this off - line , yeah .
Grad F: It 's a long time to get from LA .
Grad E: OK . And then nine channels is the maximum we can do , so .
Professor B: Uh y right cuz {disfmarker} so one is for the daisy chain so that 's fifteen instead of sixteen
Grad E: Without getting more stuff .
Professor B: and there 's six on the table so that 's nine .
Grad E: Right .
PhD C: Can I ask a really dumb question ?
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} is there any way we can have you know like a {disfmarker} a wireless microphone that you pass around to the people who you know the extra people for the times they wanna talk that {disfmarker}
Grad E: Probably .
Professor B: That 's a good idea .
PhD C: I mean {disfmarker}
Professor B: That 's not a dumb question , it 's a good idea ,
PhD C: Well I mean {disfmarker}
PhD A: Like uh like you know Jerry Springer thing ,
Professor B: yeah .
Grad E: I 'm just not sure how we would handle that in the
Grad F: That 's like the Conch .
PhD C: Well but {disfmarker}
PhD D: Like at conferences
PhD A: you know r
PhD C: well but there might be a way to say that there are gonna be these different people
Grad F: See , look .
PhD C: um and I don't know identifying somehow ?
PhD D: so nail the chairs down .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad E: Yeah , somehow .
PhD C: You know I was just thinking of Jerry Springer .
Grad E: It 's not a bad idea .
Professor B: No that {disfmarker} no {disfmarker} no
PhD A:
Professor B: that 's a very {disfmarker} if we can't get another board and even if we can I have a feeling they 'll be some work .
PhD D: The Springer mike .
PhD C: I mean for the few times that you might wanna have that .
Professor B: Let 's figure that we have eight which are set up and then there 's a ninth which is passed around to {disfmarker}
Grad E: A hand - held , yeah .
Professor B: that 's a good idea
PhD D: Infinite expansion .
Professor B: Right . Kind of rules out overlap but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but uh
PhD C: Well or also for you know if people are not
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: Well we could just hand around the lapel .
Professor B: Uh no {disfmarker} no that 's {disfmarker}
Grad E: Rather than get a {disfmarker}
PhD C: No not the lapel .
Grad E: do you want a handset ?
Professor B: No .
Grad E: Well I mean is the {disfmarker} is the hand - held really any better ?
PhD D: Liz hates the lapel .
Professor B: Yes .
PhD C: I don't know
Grad E: OK .
PhD C: but I d I know the lapel is really suboptimal .
Professor B: No it {disfmarker} no it depends on the hand - held
Grad E: Is awful ?
Professor B: but hand {disfmarker} many hand - helds are built wi with sort of uh anti - shock sort of things so that it {disfmarker} it is less uh susceptible to hand noises . If you hold the lapel mike i you just get all k sorts of junk .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Right . I mean the ones they really pass around must be sort of OK .
Grad E: OK .
Professor B: so
Grad E: So I wonder if they have one that will hook up .
Professor B: Yeah . They have {disfmarker} What ?
Grad E: I wonder if they have one that will hook up to this or whether again we 'll have to wire it ourselves .
PhD D: Well , you wouldn't want it to hook there you 'd just want it to hook into the receiver in the other room , right ?
Professor B: No that 's uh {disfmarker} you need a transmitter .
Grad E: What ?
PhD D: Is th isn't that built into the mike ?
Professor B: Oh I see . Get a {disfmarker} get a different radio , yeah .
PhD C: Yeah just these ones that they pass around with no you know wireless
Professor B: Yeah . But you need a ra but it has to correspond to the receiver .
PhD D: Have a little antenna coming out the bottom .
Grad E: It 's gonna be much easier to get one of these and just plug in a mike , isn't it ?
PhD D: But then the mike has to h
PhD A: Do you have to hand it around and if you have two pieces of
Professor B: No no {disfmarker}
PhD C: Right .
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD A:
Professor B: so right , so this is a good point , so yeah you have these {disfmarker} these mikes with a little antenna on the end right ?
Grad E: OK . And do you think you would be able to use the same receiver ?
Professor B: I don't know . You 'll have to check with them ,
Grad E: OK I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll ask .
Professor B: yeah . But that 's {disfmarker} that 's a great idea
PhD D: It 's just a frequency .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor B: and then just sort of have that as the {disfmarker} and then you can have groups of twenty people or whatever and {disfmarker} and uh
PhD C: Yeah because there 's only I mean as Andreas pointed out actually I think in the large {disfmarker} the larger the group the less interaction {disfmarker} the less people are talking um over each other {disfmarker}
PhD A: Pretty soon .
PhD D: Mmm , yeah .
PhD C: it just {disfmarker} there might be a lot of people that speak once or twice and
Professor B: Right .
PhD A: Um Gotta go .
Professor B: Off you go , yeah .
Grad E: OK so I guess people who have to leave can leave and do we have anything else to discuss or should we just do digits ?
Postdoc G: I {disfmarker} I thought of some extra {disfmarker} a couple of extra things I 'd like to mention .
Grad E: OK .
Postdoc G: One of them is to give you a status in terms of the transcriptions so far . So um as of last night um I 'd assigned twelve hours and they 'd finished nine
Grad E: uh Yep ,
Postdoc G: and my goal was to have eleven done by the end of the month , I think that by tomorrow we 'll have ten .
PhD C: Uh it 's great {disfmarker}
Professor B: Pretty close ,
Postdoc G: So they 're still working .
Professor B: that 's good .
PhD C: I j and this {disfmarker} I got this email from Jane at like two in the morning or something
PhD D: Wow .
Grad E: that 's good .
PhD C: so it 's really great
Postdoc G: It 's working out , thanks .
PhD C: It 's really great .
Postdoc G: Thanks . And then um also an idea for another meeting , which would be to have the transcribers talk about the data It 's sort of a {disfmarker} a little bit {disfmarker} a little bit
PhD C: That 's a great idea .
Professor B: Super idea .
Grad E: Yep , that 'd be very interesting .
PhD C: That 's a great idea cuz I 'd like to g have it recorded so that we can remember all the little things ,
Grad F: Yeah .
Grad E: I 'd love to hear what they have to say .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
PhD C: that 's a great idea .
PhD D: So if we got them to talk about this meeting , it would be a meta {disfmarker} meta meeting .
Postdoc G: Yeah . Yeah , exa {vocalsound} exactly I guess {disfmarker} nested several layers ,
Professor B: Now you have eight transcribers and there 's ten of us
Postdoc G: but
Professor B: so how do we do this , is the only thing .
PhD C: Or just have them talk amongst themselves .
PhD D: Have them have their own meeting .
PhD C: And have
Postdoc G: Well that 's what I 'm thinking ,
Professor B: Oh .
Postdoc G: yeah . Have them talk about the data and they {disfmarker} and they 've made observations to me
PhD C: that would be great .
Postdoc G: like they say uh you know this meeting that we think has so much overlap , in fact it does but there are other groups of similar size that have very little , you know it 's part of it 's {disfmarker} it 's the norm of the group and all that and they have various observations that would be fun , I think .
PhD C: That 's a great idea .
Grad E: Yeah , I 'd like to hear what they s say .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
PhD C: Be great .
Professor B: So maybe we could {disfmarker} they could have a meeting more or less without us that {disfmarker} to do this and we should record it
Postdoc G: OK .
Professor B: and then maybe one or two of them could come to one of these meetings and {disfmarker} and could you know could tell us about it .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Grad E: Give us a status .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc G: Oh good . OK .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: It 's {disfmarker} they will get to transcribe their own meeting but they also get paid for having a break
Grad E: That would be weird .
Postdoc G: What {disfmarker} what yeah that 's right .
PhD C: and I think that 's a good idea ,
Postdoc G: Yeah exactly , yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: get them involved .
Postdoc G: Great .
PhD C: Um that 's a great idea .
Postdoc G: Great .
Professor B: Super .
PhD C: I 'm really sorry I have to g no I have to go as well .
Professor B: OK .
Postdoc G: And then I wanted to also um say something about the Fiscus uh uh John {disfmarker} John Fiscus visit tomorrow . And Which is to say that w it 'll be from nine to one that I 'm going to uh uh offer the organization {disfmarker} allow him to uh adjust it if he wishes but to be basically in three parts , the acoustic part coming first which would be basically the room engineering aspects um other things and he 'll be also presenting what NIST is doing and {disfmarker} and uh then uh number two would be sort of a the {disfmarker} the transcription process so this would be a focus on like presegmentation and the modifications to the {disfmarker} the multitrans interface which allows more refined encoding of the beginnings and ends of the overlapping segments which uh Dave Gelbart 's been doing and then um uh and of course the presegmentation Thilo 's been doing and then um the third part would {disfmarker} and again he has some stuff that 's i relevant with respect to NIST and then the third one would be focus on transcription standards so at NIST he 's interested in this establishment of a global encoding standard I guess I would say and I want it , you know k yeah see what they 're doing and also present what {disfmarker} what we 've chosen as ours and {disfmarker} and discuss that kind of thing . And so but he 's only here until until one and actually we 're thinking of noon being uh lunch time so basically hoping that we can get as much of this done as possible before noon . S
Professor B: OK .
Postdoc G: And everybody who wants to attend is welcome . So
Grad E: Oh , where you 're gonna meet ?
Postdoc G: yeah . Here mostly but I 've also reserved the BARCO room um eh to figure out how that works in terms of like maybe having a live demonstration .
Professor B: OK but the nine o ' cl nine o ' clock will be i be in here . Yeah , OK .
Postdoc G: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Grad E: I assume we 're not gonna try to record it ?
Postdoc G: Oh I think that would be hard , yeah .
Professor B: Yeah , I think just adds {disfmarker}
Grad E: Alright .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Professor B: Um good .
Postdoc G: Thank you though , uh - huh .
Professor B: So maybe do digits and recess ?
Grad E: Unless there 's anything else ?
Postdoc G: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD D: Do digital ones ?
Professor B: Uh OK .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Grad E: Uh should y we make him wear Andreas ' mike or would that just be too confusing ?
Professor B: Yeah . No I don't think it 's confusing . Well , it doesn't confuse me .
Postdoc G: When we do this in the key {disfmarker} in the key {disfmarker} in the key it has to indicate that channel change ,
PhD D: Does it mess up the forms ?
Postdoc G: right ?
Grad E: Uh yeah I just don't know how we would do that , so . I mean other than free {disfmarker} free form .
Postdoc G: Well i have a time mark .
PhD D: The on switch is here on the {disfmarker} on the top there .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Professor B: OK .
Grad E: And just clip it to your collar .
Professor B: That 's fine .
Grad J: OK , my name is uh Espen Eriksen . I 'm a Norwegian . Um uh this is my second semester at Berkeley . Currently I 'm taking uh my first graduate level courses in DSP and um when I come back to Norway I 'm gonna continue with the {disfmarker} more of a research project work {disfmarker} kind of work . So this semester I 'm starting up with a {disfmarker} with a small project through uh Dave Gelbart which I 'm taking a course with I got in touch with him and he told me about this project . So with the help of uh Dan Ellis I 'm gonna do small project associated to this . What I 'm gonna try to do is uh use {disfmarker} use ech echo cancellation to uh to handle the periods where you have overlapping talk . To try to do something about that . So currently I 'm um I 'm just reading up on echo cancellation , s looking into the theory behind that and then uh hopefully I get some results . So it {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a project goes over the course of one semester .
Grad E: Great .
Grad J: So I 'm just here today to introduce myself . Tell about I 'll be {disfmarker} I 'll be working on this .
Grad E: And are you staying at Berkeley or is {disfmarker} are you just here a semester ?
Grad J: This is my second semester and last .
Grad E: Ah second and last ,
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: OK .
Grad J: So I leave
Professor B: He 's in the {disfmarker} he 's in the cour two two five D course .
Grad J: Yeah , I 'm in Morgan 's course ,
Professor B: So , yeah .
Grad J: yeah .
Grad E: Good .
PhD D: Welcome .
Postdoc G: Then you {disfmarker} then you go back to Norway , that 's OK .
Grad J: Yeah .
Grad F: We were just talking about something like this yesterday or yeah yesterday with Liz . About doing some of the {vocalsound} echo cancellation stuff or possibly the spectroanalysis over the overlaps , so . Cool .
Grad J: Yeah .
Professor B: OK ,
Grad E: Digits ?
Professor B: let 's do digits . OK .
Grad E: And stop . | |
doc_170 | Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Janet Finch-Saunders. I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome Suzy Davies to the committee, and to thank Mark Reckless and Darren Millar, who have left us, for their service and hard work as members of the committee. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. We will move on then to our evidence session on our inquiry into the impact of Brexit on higher and further education. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Cabinet Secretary for Education, and Eluned Morgan AM, Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning. Can I just ask you to introduce your officials for the record, please?
Kirsty Williams AM: Bore da, Lynne, and thank you for the invitation to join you. Eluned and I are joined this morning by Huw Morris, who's the group director at SHELL—skills, higher education and lifelong learning—and Marie Knox, who is deputy director, overseeing European transition.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you very much, and thank you for coming. We'll go straight into questions, then, and the first questions are from Suzy Davies.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I'd like to ask you both, if that's okay, a little bit about preparedness. But if I could start with higher education, I understand that—I don't know, it must be about 18 months ago now—Ken Skates told another committee in this place that there had been nine sector analyses done. Presumably, one of those was HE, because of the—well, Welsh Government had a presence, and still does, in Brussels, related to higher education. Apparently, those have now been superseded by work that's been done by Cardiff University. I don't know if you've got any comments on that research, or whether it's been brought to your attention yet.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, Suzy, following the vote, I was very keen that we work very closely with colleagues in higher education and further education, to get an understanding from on the ground about the potential impact. So, in terms of preparedness, we started that group in the September, and that work from that group, which includes both HE and FE, has been instrumental in helping the Government form its views, which were articulated in the Government's White Paper, 'Securing Wales' Future'. There has been ongoing work being done—as the debate in London and Europe becomes a little bit more clear, then it becomes a little less clear, and then a little bit more clear, but, bearing in mind the difficulties of working in an ever-changing field, we have been refining those approaches. Each institution has been looking at their own institution, because, as you can imagine, although we have an overview of the sector, the challenges are very different for individual institutions—so their exposure, for instance, to the number of European Union students that they have at their college, or the work that they might be doing with Horizon 2020, or their success—and there has been considerable success in the HE field in securing structural funds for various projects—the exposure and the potential impact of leaving the EU, in a 'no deal' or in a 'deal' scenario, is very, very different. But I don't know if, Huw, you want to talk any further.
Suzy Davies AM: Maybe just to use the 'no deal' scenario is probably the easiest, isn't it?
Kirsty Williams AM: The 'no deal'?
Suzy Davies AM: Well, yes, because that's the worst-case scenario, so let's look at that one.
Huw Morris: As the Cabinet Secretary mentioned, the higher education Brexit working group's been meeting since September 2016 and has been looking at that in general. More recently, when the prospect of no deal became talked about, officials have been visiting individual institutions to talk to them about their preparedness for that. As you'll be aware, the funding for much of the activity is secured, we believe, even under a 'no deal' scenario, until December 2020; that's a letter we had from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. I think the research you're referring to may be research that Cardiff University has been doing with the Bevan Foundation and others. I know there's a report due to be launched later today. We have been doing our own research and looking at the impact on HE, FE and apprenticeship providers.
Suzy Davies AM: Well, that's really helpful because my understanding was that this Cardiff University research had superseded all those nine sector analyses.
Huw Morris: That may be true for the economy brief. Certainly, there are published papers by Max Munday and a team at Cardiff University on the impact of Brexit on the Welsh economy, but for HE and FE and apprenticeship provision, it's as the Cabinet Secretary outlined.
Suzy Davies AM: So, are there any formal risk assessments that are available for us to scrutinise, for example? For HE and FE for that matter.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales have been doing some specific work; I can't comment on how wide they would want that to be shared. We have been doing some broad analysis, as I said, for the sector, looking at what we can do to mitigate the risk, bearing in mind that each institution is an autonomous institution, a principle that they guard really jealously, and rightly so. So, we have been, as Huw said, because the prospect of a 'no deal' has become, perhaps, more to the forefront, officers have been visiting each institution to try and make sure and to satisfy us, as people who fund part of their activity, that they have their own plans in place to deal with these scenarios. We continue to work alongside them to push the issues that we can help them with. So, for instance, we continue to work with officials in Westminster around Erasmus+ provision in a 'no deal' scenario, what a UK stand-alone project would look like, the impacts of a 'no deal' on Horizon 2020. So, we look at the broader picture and we are encouraging continually individual institutions to make sure that they themselves are looking at their specific needs within that.
Suzy Davies AM: Well, if there is something that's shareable, I'm sure we'd be very pleased to see it—
Kirsty Williams AM: Anything that we've got—
Suzy Davies AM: —particularly with FE, actually, because, of course, we haven't got a HEFCW for FE; you're doing that regulation yourself. I'd expect to see that type of work evidenced somewhere from within Welsh Government, and we would be able to see that then.
Eluned Morgan AM: So, if I could just make some points on FE. We've been actively engaging with the FE sector. We've spoken to every one of the colleges about how they see things developing. I think it's quite a different response than what is going to be happening in HE.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, because the student thing isn't such an issue, is it?
Eluned Morgan AM: You've got to remember that the FE colleges are much more anchored within their communities, they're much more localised, and so, for example, the number of EU students in these colleges is significantly lower. The number of staff in these colleges—I think they've analysed that there are only about 71 people. So, we're keeping in touch with them and we're letting them know what we are being told in terms of the Home Office settled status and what we can do to protect those 71. But that's a much bigger issue, I think, for higher education.
Suzy Davies AM: What are they telling you about European social fund funding, though, because, as you say, they're locally anchored—the impact on FE of ESF funding is probably more significant than the issues we're talking about with higher education. How are you finding this out? Is this through one-to-one conversations?
Eluned Morgan AM: We are engaging with them all, and, obviously, we're engaging with ColegauCymru, who've done their own analysis, and what we found, in particular, is that the real problems are probably in relation to ESF funding and apprenticeships. But what you've got to remember is that that link between apprenticeships and the local work community is absolutely crucial. So, if—
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, that's why I asked.
Eluned Morgan AM: —the economy nosedives, or if there's an issue that we see—just the dislocation of companies in those areas as a result of Brexit—then that will inevitably have an impact on the number of apprenticeships that will be on offer. So, it's those kinds of things, but at the moment I think it's worth pointing out that about £15 million a year goes into the FE sector just in relation to apprenticeships.
Suzy Davies AM: Can I just come back finally on that, before handing over? In both your areas of responsibility, there's going to be an impact on Welsh Government in how it responds to that, as well. Can you tell me a little bit about the European transition team, which I think is about building resilience within the Welsh Government to deal with the impacts of Brexit? Is that a formal arrangement you have with officials? I don't really know much about this team, but it seems to meet fortnightly to get Welsh Government ready for Brexit, so could you just give us some clues on this?
Marie Knox: Yes, in terms of the European transition team, that's the central co-ordinating group that pulls together all the leads in each department who are pulling together the work on European transition. So, I attend that group in relation to higher education and further education, and, obviously, other representatives in terms of agriculture, transport, the economy, et cetera.
Suzy Davies AM: It's great that you're on that group, but what does it actually do? That's the bit I wasn't sure about.
Marie Knox: I guess it provides the governance structure for the Welsh Government as a whole in relation to European transition. So, individual departments do their own work, and the European transition team provides the governance structure, and, also, they lead on the discussions with the Department for Exiting the European Union, No. 10, the Joint Ministerial Committee—those kinds of ministerial arrangements.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I've had enough time, I think.
Lynne Neagle AM: Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: I'll ask my questions in Welsh, if I may. This discussion between HEFCW and higher education, these challenges in terms of how ready they are for the changes to come, and the work that the Government is doing with FE, I suspect, is happening at an organisational level. So, I just want to hear a little about where the student voice comes into that discussion and where the engagement happens in terms of the students.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, we have a close working relationship with the National Union of Students. I meet with them regularly, and officials are in constant touch with the student voice. They have been very clear, and I think there is a huge amount of consensus between the Welsh Government, what the universities are asking for and what the students are asking for. You'll have seen, only earlier this week, the very powerful campaign by NUS Wales about the importance of Erasmus+ arrangements. There is a huge amount to be gained for Welsh students and young people participating in the Erasmus programme. Many of us, I know, have had the opportunity to study abroad as part of our own studies, and there's a lot to be gained from it. We've been very clear from the outset, as have the sector and the student voice, about the importance of participation in that scheme. NUS are also very concerned that there should be no negative impact on the quality of faculty. Our HE institutions, to a greater extent than FE, have faculty staff from the EU—it runs at about 11 per cent. That adds great diversity and strength to the quality of teaching within our institutions. Clearly, that is a concern for students. They want to have the best teachers, they want access to the best learning opportunities, and we've been very clear about the importance of providing security and stability for those staff, making sure we send very clear messages that they're very welcome and we value their contribution. NUS, again, also value the diversity in the student population. Again, as far as we've been able to, we've been able to give messages about the security of funding for European students for the next academic year. I wish I could go further, but that's out of my hands. We're working to the limits of what I feel comfortable in being able to guarantee without further guarantees from Westminster. So, we've been working closely with the student voice, and I think, Llyr, what's very clear is there is a consensus about what is important across the Government, the institutions and student voice. So, that is making sure we send very clear messages about Wales's institutions being open for business and that we welcome both EU and international students, that we value the contribution of faculty, and that we want to be able to continue in Horizon 2020. That's especially important if we're looking at attracting postgraduate work and postgraduate students into our system, as well as Erasmus+. The issue of post-study work visas, again, is very important. As I said, there's a consensus, I think, between the Government, the institutions and the students about what we need the UK Government to achieve for us.
Lynne Neagle AM: Before we move on to student recruitment, it's increasingly the view of many experts that we're heading for a 'no deal' Brexit. Can I ask both of you what specific plans you've put in place in the event of such a 'no deal' Brexit happening and us crashing out next spring?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, I think it's really difficult for us to prepare for a 'no deal' Brexit, but obviously we need to think through very carefully what that might look like, and I think that scenario planning is starting to happen. I think it's very different, again, for FE compared to HE. So, in relation to FE, what we do have is funding—ESF funding—which the UK Government has said that they will underwrite until 2020. So, in March next year, if there is no deal, the immediate impact on FE is unlikely to hit in the way that we may have feared. The problem then becomes: what exactly is the deal with the EU in future, because we will have some kind of relationship, and what that impact will be on the broader economy and our ability to work with companies locally, and industries, to provide that link between training needs? So, the colleges, basically, are providing the training for lots of the apprenticeships, and so if the number of companies reduces, then that is likely to have an impact. So, there are specific sectors that we are more concerned about than others. Farming is obviously one that we are concerned about, because that could have a difference in terms of day one of no deal. If your markets are not there, that could be quite an immediate impact. Health and social care—obviously, we are concerned that there are a number of people who work in that sector who are EU citizens. What is the impact? Are they going to feel unwelcome? Are they likely, then, to return home? Where will that skills gap, therefore, be? So, that's a problem for us. Construction is already an issue for us in terms of skills shortages. So, one of the things we're doing is we've developed these regional skills partnerships where we ask local employers, 'What is it that you need in terms of skills development?' and we are now asking further education colleges to respond to that need. So, rather than them just getting people through the college system, who are easy to get in because they're doing courses that they're excited about, let's try and encourage them to do courses where we know there are skills shortages. So, that is a new structure that we've developed that is already having an impact; there's a £10 million project there. So, we're already putting things in place for those situations. In manufacturing, obviously, if there's no deal, the rules of origin, that could have an immediate impact. Just-in-time—we could have real problems in terms of dislocation there; and hospitality and tourism. So, those are the sectors we have most concerns about, and all of them have very strong links to the FE sector.
Kirsty Williams AM: From the HE perspective, from a point of principle, we just have to keep working towards some kind of deal. Although the prospect of no deal, maybe, has risen up the agenda, we have got to be consistent in our messages to the Westminster Government: we need a deal. Wales cannot afford to crash out of the EU without a deal. If that worst-case scenario was to happen, because of the underwrite guarantee, actually, for European regional development fund and European social fund programmes in the HE sector, it would be business as usual. And because of the current underwrite guarantee, the forthcoming bids for Erasmus and Horizon 2020 would be covered, but they would be the last applications that could be made. You'll be aware that there are some proposals for an extension to that guarantee, but from my understanding and our understanding of it, that would only give us third-country status for Horizon 2020 and Erasmus. What that does mean is that we would have limited access to the Horizon 2020 programme, and if you look at the activity that is currently being undertaken by the Welsh HE sector under that programme, that would mean that we'd probably lose about 50 per cent of that work, because that's the split between the bits we would still be able to access and what we are currently accessing. As I've already said, we have made a guarantee for EU student support for the next academic year, but, without clarity from the Treasury, I don't think it would be prudent of me to commit Welsh Government to anything further than that. So, we continue to push the message that a 'no deal' would be catastrophic. What can we do? You'll be aware that we have been working with Universities Wales to access resources under the European transition fund, under the Global Wales programme, to look to boost international marketing of the HE sector and to talk about the strengths that we have in the sector. And we continue to look at other opportunities within the EU transition pot of money to assist the universities and the FE sector in that regard. We also continue to look to respond to the Reid review proposals, about how we can beef up our own research and continue to engage with UK Research and Innovation to make sure that, with any research money that comes out of that negotiation, Wales is in a competitive position to be able to bid successfully for that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We're going to move on, then, to talk about student recruitment. I'm going to, because we've got a lot of questions, appeal for brief questions and answers that are as concise as possible, please. Hefin.
Hefin David AM: How does the Welsh Government account for the fact that EU student applications in Wales this year—that Wales is the only country in the UK to have seen a significant drop?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay, well, I think the first thing to remember is that we will not get a full picture of student recruitment until, first of all, November and then the true picture, because some institutions, as you would know, have two admissions dates—we won't get the full picture until the spring. I think it was inevitable, given the change in Government policy with regard to student support, which had previously allowed European students to benefit from a tuition fee grant, and given the fact that that option is no longer available to them, that that has had an impact on EU recruitment, and there's no point trying to hide from that.
Hefin David AM: So, together with leaving the EU, that's a double-whammy effect that's hitting Wales harder than the rest of the UK.
Kirsty Williams AM: It just puts us in the same position as EU students applying to England, but it was inevitable. This was looked at by Diamond. It was anticipated that this could be a consequence of the change in policy, and I think we see that reflected in the initial figure, although, as I said, we won't get the true picture until the first census in November, and then, ultimately, the final picture in the spring.
Hefin David AM: How concerned are you by that?
Kirsty Williams AM: Clearly, we want our universities to be able to attract students from both the EU and from around the world. The fact that the tuition fee grant arrangements may have had an impact on European Union students at this stage does not preclude the fact that Wales, up until now, has been successful in recruiting international students. So, the change in the fee regime should not be a barrier to the recruitment of international students, because, actually, international students outside of the EU make up a bigger proportion of students not from the UK who come to our institutions.
Hefin David AM: That's a fair point, but it's unfortunate timing, though, isn't it?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think, from a public policy point of view and moving towards a sustainable way of funding our HE sector, then both my priority and, I would say, the priority of the institutions was to see the implementation of Diamond, which is what we have done.
Hefin David AM: Okay, that's fine. What about the fact that we've got a relatively imbalanced higher education profile compared to other countries of the UK with regard to high, medium and low-tariff universities? We've got one high-tariff university, and they're the ones that tend to show the growth in recruitment of EU students. Are you concerned about that balance of profile in the HE sector?
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said in answer to your question earlier, there is a difference reflected in the exposure of institutions to EU and international students. I would argue that it's not necessarily the case that institutions that are not high-tariff are not able to do very well in this sector. If you look, for instance, at Swansea University—if you look at the work Swansea University has done, that shows you what is possible.
Hefin David AM: What is Swansea's success, then? What can we learn from Swansea?
Kirsty Williams AM: What I think is important—and this is not about any one institution—what I think is really important is that we look to—. And I can't force institutions to do this. It's a combination, I believe, for all universities, of getting their offer right—so, having a curriculum at their institution that is attractive and offers courses that people want to study. It's about that curriculum being delivered in an excellent fashion, so high quality ratings for teaching, as well as having an infrastructure that is attractive to students. So, it's all about getting the offer right and providing what students, both domestically and internationally, want.
Hefin David AM: But the evidence would therefore suggest that that model of success that you've just outlined is happening in Swansea but it isn't happening in other institutions, and they're seeing a drop.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I think what we can see from Cardiff, Swansea and others is that it is possible to do very well in the sector.
Hefin David AM: So, Cardiff, Swansea and Bangor—but the others, not.
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, what we can see is that, if you get the offer right, I think we have something very special that the HE sector can market itself on.
Lynne Neagle AM: Llyr, you've got a supplementary.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Just coming back to the drop in EU students, you mentioned that one of the reasons probably is the change in the funding that's available to students coming here. So, does that suggest that, under the current regime, Wales was punching above its weight in terms of attracting students and we've lost that advantage? I know we're gaining in other ways in introducing the new system, but really we're not much different to England in terms of fees now, so why would they come to Wales as opposed to going anywhere else?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think you're right; there was an added incentive, potentially, to come to a Welsh institution because of the availability of the tuition fee grant. That advantage is no longer there, which is why we need to work alongside the sector, as we're doing with the Global Wales programme, to increase their ability to market HE in the round across the world. I think we've got a strong offer that we can speak to people about. I'm very proud of what our institutions can deliver for people. It's a fantastic, warm environment to come and study in, at great institutions. There's something for everybody, whether you want to be in a city like Cardiff or whether you want a coastal experience in a small town like Aber. So, we've got a lot to offer and that's why it's really important that, although we have seen a change in the tuition fees, which may have an impact, we are investing with universities, for instance, in the Global Wales programme.
Lynne Neagle AM: In terms of the drop that we've seen in Wales, which is differential amongst institutions, will you be taking any specific action to try and prevent Brexit exacerbating that?
Kirsty Williams AM: We are working with HEFCW and individual institutions, as I said, to test their preparedness. We can't tell them what to do in that sense, but we can, because of our governance arrangements and HEFCW's monitoring arrangements, continue to test with them. I meet regularly with vice-chancellors and separately with the chairs of the institutions and separately again with HEFCW representatives, and the sustainability of the sector and recruitment issues is always something that is on the agenda.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Julie.
Julie Morgan AM: The additional £6.4 million that went to HEFCW in the 2017-18 year, which I think you say is partly because of Brexit and partly because of demographic and recruitment challenges, what do you expect to see as a result of that spending?
Kirsty Williams AM: That funding was allocated, as I said, to enable HEFCW to deal with any short-term implications arising out of demographic changes, because we've seen a drop in the number of 18-year-olds, and the initial implications of EU transition. It was allocated as part of HEFCW's overall grant in aid, and therefore the council was given discretion as to how it was to be apportioned to the sector. The money was brought forward a year, because, in conversations with HEFCW and the institutions, they felt that that money would be more useful earlier on. So, it was money that was brought forward into the allocation for 2017-18, as opposed to 2018-19, because they wanted to have that resource earlier rather than later. With regard to additional resources, you'll be aware that we have made an additional resource of £5 million available to mitigate the freeze in tuition fees, and £5 million has been made available to HEFCW to kick-start the work on postgraduate support until we're in a position to fully implement Diamond at the postgraduate level.
Julie Morgan AM: You say that the money is used at the discretion of the universities. So, you don't have an analysis of how that was spent.
Kirsty Williams AM: The financial allocation, as I said, was agreed with the funding council and it was there to help universities with any cash flow issues, but if you'd like further details I can provide those as much as I'm able.
Julie Morgan AM: I think it would be interesting if we know what the money was spent on and, of course, that money is now not available for the next financial year, so there's no way of carrying on what they were doing with it, presumably.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, it was part of the overall allocation to HEFCW. With specific regard to dealing with the impact of Brexit, you'll be aware that we have reached an agreement in principle on the funding of £3.5 million to the Global Wales initiative. This was an application that came in from Universities Wales looking at specifically targeting and beefing up international work and international recruitment work to support them at this time, and we're currently working with Universities Wales on the exact details and outcomes they would expect from that investment.
Julie Morgan AM: And do you have any estimate of how many students you hope to attract by that?
Kirsty Williams AM: That is subject to continuing negotiations with Universities Wales before we let any contracts with them. What's important is that that work is based on research that has been done by Universities Wales to look at the optimum markets that we should be targeting, specifically the United States of America and Vietnam.
Julie Morgan AM: And will this money be used equally between all the universities?
Kirsty Williams AM: We expect that all institutions—should they have a desire to participate—will be able to be assisted, as well as the overall global branding from Universities Wales and the new Study in Wales initiative.
Julie Morgan AM: Thank you. I think we've covered the EU student fees, haven't we?
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Do you want to ask question 12?
Julie Morgan AM: Has the Welsh Government explored the possibility of looking at different immigration rules for international and EU students who may wish to study here?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. Well, with regard to immigration, clearly, this is something, at the moment, that is out of our hands, and I have to say, it hasn't got off to a great start when initially the post-study work visas were issued just for a number of institutions in the south-east of England, with no consultation with us and I don't believe with the Scottish Government either. So, we have campaigned, pushed, cajoled, lobbied, and I was very glad that in December last year, the Home Office did then make that scheme available to Cardiff and to Trinity Saint David. We continue to press the point that we do not believe that, first of all, international students should be included in any immigration targets. I think all the evidence suggests that the British public don't regard international students as immigrants, and therefore we do need to make sure that they are taken out of the targets and we can continue to press that message with the UK Government. At the moment, you'll be aware that Welsh Government has looked at a specific piece of work on whether there was any scope for specific immigration policy for Wales, although I must say that was mostly in the field of actually the workforce rather than students. You'll be aware that this week the Government's migration advisory committee—there are so many committees these days—have said that they don't believe that there is a case for a separate provision for EU students, as opposed to international students. But we want an immigration system that makes it as easy as possible for those students who want to benefit from education in Wales, and indeed the UK, to be able to do so.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, what are we doing from now on in then? Are we just waiting to see or are we continuing to push?
Kirsty Williams AM: No—gosh—Llyr, we continue to push the case at the official level, and at the moment, I'm trying to convene a quadrilateral, if it can be quadrilateral in the sense that Northern Ireland aren't up and running—but certainly with officials from Northern Ireland. We're trying to arrange another quadrilateral between myself, the HE Minister for England and the new HE Minister for Scotland. If I can speak candidly, I don't believe that there's any difference between our view, with regard to the status of international students, and the views of English Ministers within the department in England. It is convincing the Home Office of that case. So, I don't think we need to persuade Sam Gyimah about the importance of this. Jo Johnson got, I think the current Minister gets it—it's a question of whether we can persuade the Home Office of that particular case.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. The next questions are from John Griffiths.
John Griffiths AM: I have some questions on the sustainability of higher and further education. Firstly, with regard to higher education, we heard that, even without Brexit, higher education is in managed deficit, whilst the funding announcements from Diamond and Reid are awaited. So, is that a concern to Welsh Government, and could Welsh Government take away that uncertainty by outlining a clear funding commitment to the Diamond and Reid reviews?
Kirsty Williams AM: Welsh Government is fully committed, John, to implementing the Diamond review proposals. It's a commitment that was an element of the agreement between myself and the First Minister that brought me into the administration, and we have been very clear with HEFCW about our expectations and what the implementation of Diamond will mean for grant going to HEFCW. And we've shared those figures with them. With regard to Reid, we continue within Government to discuss how we can implement the recommendations of Reid, but one of the whole principles behind Diamond was to move us to a more sustainable funding settlement for the HE sector in the round, that is fair to students, encourages those with the ability to partake in higher education to do so, especially from those from a poorer background, as well as being able to provide our institutions with the resources that they need.
John Griffiths AM: So, you don't accept, then, that there hasn't been a clear funding commitment from Welsh Government to those reviews—the Diamond and Reid reviews?
Kirsty Williams AM: With regard to Diamond, I would absolutely refute that. We have been very clear and we have shown HEFCW our analysis of the figures going forward in relation to what is sometimes called within the sector the 'Diamond dividend', although the Diamond dividend is never as big as people imagine the Diamond dividend to be. But we've been absolutely clear with HEFCW and the sector on what that will mean. Now, with regard to Reid, those are ongoing discussions that form part of the normal budgetary process within the Government, but I think we have been as clear as we can be with regard to Diamond.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. The second question, really, is about HE and FE and it's about European funding, which, of course, has been and is on a multi-year basis, which gives, I think, a lot of security and comfort to the sectors, knowing what the budgets will be over a period of time. So, moving from that to a yearly budgeting situation would be worrying. So, would you commit to introducing multi-year funding settlements for HE, and indeed for FE, moving forward beyond Brexit?
Eluned Morgan AM: Shall I take this and give you a little bit of a break? She's not very well. I think the multi-annual nature of the European funding programmes has been very, very useful. People can plan, you can get staffing in place, you can have really strategic aims and I think that's really useful for the institutions involved. Of course, what we don't have is multi-annual budgeting from the UK Government. So, whilst I think we would, in an ideal world, like to see a better view of what's coming our way, it's extremely difficult for us to be able to offer that without having that multi-annual funding commitment from the UK Government. So, I think that will be a major, major loss for the institutions concerned. Of course, it's not just about ESF and apprenticeships—it's also about ERDF funding. So, you mustn't forget that, actually, there's been a lot of ERDF funding that's gone into these institutions. Swansea University, you'll be aware, has been practically rebuilt with ERDF. Also, FE colleges—we've got Coleg y Cymoedd, the college in Blaenau Gwent. These have been built, largely, with European funding. It's because of the multi-annual nature of the fact that we've been able to prepare for them that they have been able to progress. So, that will be a huge loss, but I think it's really important that we don't forget the ERDF aspect in addition to the ESF impact that there will be on these institutions.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. As far as further education is concerned, in your paper you state that it's a priority to support the FE sector to maintain all the learning opportunities that currently take place under European Union funding. So, would you be able to give the committee an idea of the level of resource you would estimate that the sector requires to achieve that priority, and—? I'll stop there for the moment.
Eluned Morgan AM: I think it is important. What we've said is that we want to maintain that range of learning opportunities that is provided by EU funding. I think we've got to be clear that we are not working to this scenario. I think we've got to—. The UK Government have made us some promises and they've made some commitments, and we need to hold them to that, and so let's keep the pressure on. The moment we start saying, 'No, it's all going to be okay, we'll sort ourselves out'—I think that would be a huge mistake. We have been promised that we will not lose a penny as a result of Brexit, and we need to make sure that we keep them to that commitment. I think it was quite interesting to hear what Philip Hammond said yesterday when he was in Wales, saying that the money that we will receive will depend on the future shape of the economy, which implies that he has no idea what's going to happen there, and that that shared prosperity fund will be designed around the deal. Well, that's really not what we're interested in. We were made some promises, and we need them to commit to those promises. I think we have some real concerns about the shared prosperity fund not really following through on the commitments that were made during the Brexit referendum. But, in terms of the replacements, we'd be looking at about £15 million a year, and that would be a huge impact for us, but we're not looking at that—I don't think we should be—because they made some promises.
John Griffiths AM: So, could you say that, if they keep their promises, then at least that level of funding would be maintained?
Eluned Morgan AM: I think that would be a minimum, but that's just one aspect of it. That's not including the whole workplace learning money on top of that.
John Griffiths AM: Okay.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, just very quickly on the multi-annual point, obviously I recognise that we're talking about six or seven-year cycles with Europe, and I completely take the point that you don't really know from year to year what your budget's going to be, but Welsh Government does make multi-annual commitments. I think you did it yesterday, actually—the capital commitment is over more than one year. How are you able to do that and yet not quite feel confident that you can do that with—well, both your sectors, really?
Eluned Morgan AM: I think it's probably easier to do with capital than it is with revenue, so that's what would make the difference. But it's—. These institutions are interested in revenue, because that's what supports the staff. The one thing we all know is that employment opportunities today—the transitional nature of employment and the fact that people are not getting the kind of contracts that we'd like them to get—that makes their lives very precarious and they're less likely, then, to be committed to those institutions. I think it's a really, really concerning thing, because what makes these institutions work well is their staff, so that makes life very, very difficult without that multi-annual commitment.
Suzy Davies AM: They also have to raise some of their own money as well—we mustn't forget that.
Eluned Morgan AM: No, I think that's right, and I think that there's more that these institutions can do in terms of their own funding and being more responsive to employers and the need for skills in their areas.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: So, given the precarious state of planning for the finances, are you considering letting universities charge EU students international fees?
Kirsty Williams AM: We don't regulate the ability for universities to set fees for international students. They would be in a position to—[Inaudible.] They are in a position to set international fees at a rate that, I guess, they feel is appropriate for the provision that they give to those students.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, right. We'll move on, then, to questions from Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. I just wanted to pick up on the funding of apprenticeships and the long-term funding, because the ESF—the commitments take us to 2023, which takes us beyond any transition period. So, I just want to hear from you that there are assurances that the apprenticeship programme can be delivered as a whole, come what may.
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, we're fine until 2020, because we've had that guarantee from the Government. The issue for us is the n+2 that we would have if we do have some kind of transition deal or an agreement with the EU. So, there is a risk and there is concern, beyond 2020, that that would create problems if they don't agree to fund that, which is the expectation that we have.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: But it is a prospect that this wouldn't be achieved as you foresee.
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, we do hope, because we've had the pledges and commitments from the Government, that they will respect what we expected and what was expected by these institutions that have had the commitment of the funding.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, to what extent does that undermine the current work? Because institutions want to enter into agreements with providers and so on. Businesses want to know, if they're starting on some sort of journey, that they are going to get to the end of it some years down the line. That must be undermining a lot of the work that's going on now.
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, as I said, because the guarantee is there until 2020, I think that, for now, people are willing to go into those agreements, and I hope that we'll have a better outlook by November of the direction we're moving in. But I don't think it's had an impact. You have to remember that the number of apprenticeships in Wales is rising, while they've collapsed entirely in England. So, it is important that we do continue, and it's important that we don't create an atmosphere here that's going to undermine the confidence of our employers in committing to training in the workplace.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Are you confident that the Government will achieve its targets in this context?
Eluned Morgan AM: Yes. We're on target to reach 100,000 apprenticeships. I think we're slightly ahead of that target, I'm pleased to say. So, of course, our hope is to do that. But let's be clear: if there is a 'no deal' scenario, that will have an impact on the economy, and who knows what will happen then to some of these companies that are reliant on the EU.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Talking about the impact on the wider economy, on the point you made earlier that it's not just the direct effect on these institutions, but also on the businesses that they engage with, that is a concern in this context, that means, of course, that there is a lot of pressure in this context on the work that other departments in the Government are doing, because perhaps they are the ones dealing with some of this. So, could you tell us a little bit about how you're working with Ministers and Cabinet Secretaries and other departments within the Government to safeguard these interests?
Eluned Morgan AM: So, as part of the employability programme, I have started going round every member of the Cabinet to ask what the impact will be on them—for example, in health, and, certainly, the economy, but here are many other areas. What's important for us is that we do collaborate and we do get this analysis, but we hope to do that on the ground through the regional skills partnerships. That's our way of ensuring that we can have an understanding, on the ground, of what's needed by employers. And so ensuring that people feed into that and that we respond to those requirements—that's where we're focusing our work. So, we're asking, for example, health boards to ensure that they feed into the regional skills partnerships.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Is there a danger that we're a little bit behind in this process? Because Brexit could be upon us in no time at all, and, of course, this work is still ongoing.
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, I have been pushing and ensuring that in the direct areas facing the greatest risk, and agriculture's one of those, of course—. We have been pushing to see what we can do further, so, for example, I'm in the process of developing a policy on rural skills at present because I do think it's important that we do focus on those sectors that are likely to suffer the worst impact if the worst does happen. So, those preparations are in place as far as they can be, but, of course, it's very difficult without knowing to what extent it's going to impact on us.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: And each sector's running on its own timescale, I would presume. But, as you've mentioned rural skills, when do you foresee that that work will appear, and when will plans or schemes or whatever you're intending to put in place see the light of day?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, we hope during this term that that will be published or announced. So, certainly, it is something that we have been discussing with people in rural areas directly, with the colleges, to see what the provision is there and to what extent we need to expand that, and to what extent we will need to change and move really quickly if there is no deal. That's something that I think we have to learn and we need to convince the FE sector about in terms of moving more quickly and to be more responsive to the demand that there is in the workplace.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, because there is the dilemma you touched on earlier about providing the skills that are required for the economy and providing the courses that are easy to fill. That is a live discussion across FE and HE, but you're confident that that discussion is taking place in a constructive and positive way and moving in the right direction.
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, it's helped that we've put £10 million on the table, because they do understand now that we are serious about our aim of ensuring that they do respond to what employers are asking for. So that has helped a lot in terms of focus and, of course, we're in the middle of a review now as well in terms of how we fund FE, and that will certainly be a part of that.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay, thanks.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Can I just go back—?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sorry, Chair, could I just clarify something? The last question you asked me about—
Lynne Neagle AM: I was just going to go back to that, yes.
Kirsty Williams AM: —fees—. Sorry. Of course, that is in the context of a 'no deal' scenario. There could be a scenario where there are reciprocal arrangements, so, if a deal was reached with the European Union that established the principle of reciprocal arrangements, then, obviously, the ability of the HE institutions to charge international fees would be curtailed. I just want to make that clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: If there's not that agreement—
Kirsty Williams AM: If there's no deal—
Lynne Neagle AM: —then it will be open to universities to charge market-driven, international rates.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that's right. Sorry, I just wanted to clarify. I should have made it very clear that the answer I gave was in the context of no deal, which is what we seem to be talking about mostly this morning, but if there was a deal to have reciprocal arrangements, then that ability, obviously, would be curtailed.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay, well, can I thank the Cabinet Secretary, the Minister and the officials for attending and for answering all our questions? We very much appreciate your time. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy after the meeting. Thank you very much. Okay. Item 5, then, is papers to note. Members will see that there are 18 papers to note, so I'd like to suggest that we note them as a block, please, and just to flag that I would like to return to paper to note 18 when we go into private. Is that okay with everyone? Everyone happy to note those? Thank you. Item 6, then, can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting and the whole of the meeting next week? Are Members content? Okay, thank you. | |
doc_171 | Grad B:
Grad D: How many batteries do you go through ?
Grad B: Thank you .
Professor C: Alright .
PhD A: Sure .
Professor C: Good . Yeah . OK so , let 's get started . Nancy said she 's coming and that means she will be . Um . My suggestion is that Robert and Johno sort of give us a report on last week 's adventures uh to start . So everybody knows there were these guys f uh from Heidelber - uh , uh , actually from uh DFKI uh , part of the German SmartKom project , who were here for the week and , I think got a lot done .
Grad E: Yeah , I think so too . Um . The {disfmarker} we got to the point where we can now speak into the SmartKom system , and it 'll go all the way through and then say something like " Roman numeral one , am Smarticus . " It actually says , " Roemisch einz , am Smarticus , "
Grad B: OK .
Grad E: which means it 's just using a German sythesis module for English sentences .
Grad B: OK .
Grad E: So uh ,
Professor C: It doesn't know " I " .
Grad B: OK .
Grad E: Um , the uh
Grad B: Oh , Am Spartacus . "
Grad D: " I am Sm - I am Smarticus " is what it 's saying .
PhD A: Right .
Grad B: Verstehe . OK .
Grad D: I gue
Grad E: The uh sythesis is just a question of um , hopefully it 's just a question of exchanging a couple of files , once we have them . And , um , it 's not going to be a problem because we decided to stick to the so - called concept to speech approach . So I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm going backwards now , so " synthesis " is where you sort of make this {disfmarker} uh , make these sounds , and " concept to speech " is feeding into this synthesis module giving it what needs to be said , and the whole syntactic structure so it can pronounce things better , presumably . Then , just with text to speech .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: And , uh , Johno learned how to write XML tags . Uh , and did write the tree adjoining grammar for some {disfmarker} some sentences . No , right ?
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad E: Yeah , for a couple {disfmarker}
Grad D: So . Bu - Uh , i The way the uh , the dialogue manager works is it dumps out what it wants to know , or what it wants to tell the person , to a {disfmarker} er in XML and there 's a conversion system for different uh , to go from XML to something else . And th so , the knowledge base for the system , that generates the syntasti syntactic structures for the ge generation is uh , in a LISP - like {disfmarker} the knowledge base is in a LISP - like form . And then the thing that actually builds these syntactic structures is something based on Prolog . So , you have a {disfmarker} basically , a goal and it , you know , says " OK , well I 'm gonna try to do the Greet - the - person goal ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: so it just starts {disfmarker} uh , it binds some variables and it just decides to , you know , do some subscold . Basically , it just means " build the tree . "
Grad B: OK .
Grad D: And then it passes the tree onto , uh , the ge the generation module .
Grad E: But I think that the point is that out of the twelve possible utterances that the German system can do , we 've already written the {disfmarker} the syntax trees for three or four .
Grad D: We yeah . So , the syntax trees are very simple . It 's like most of the sentences in one tree ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: and instead of , you know , breaking down to , like , small units and building back up , they basically took the sentences , and basically cut them in half , or you know , into thirds or something like that , and made trees out of those . And so uh , uh Tilman wrote a little tool that you could take LISP notation and generate an XML , uh , tree . Uh , S what do ca structure from the {disfmarker} from the LISP . And so basically you just say , you know , " noun goes to " , you know , Er , nah , I don't re I 've never been good at those . So there 's like the VP goes to N and those things in LISP , and it will generate for you .
Grad B: OK . N , N , V yeah , OK . Alright .
Grad E: And because we 're sticking to that structure , the synthesis module doesn't need to be changed . So all that f fancy stuff , and the Texas speech version of it , which is actually the simpler version , is gonna be done in October which is much too late for us . So . This way we {disfmarker} we worked around that . The , uh {disfmarker} the system , um {disfmarker} I can show you the system . I actually want , at least , maybe , you should be able to start it on your own . If you wanna play around with it , in th in the future . Right now it 's brittle and you need to ch start it up and then make ts twenty changes on {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on seventeen modules before they actually can stomach it , anything . And send in a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a couple of side queries on some dummy center set - up program so that it actually works because it 's designed for this seevit thing , where you have the gestural recognition running with this s Siemens virtual touch screen , which we don't have here .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: And so we 're doing it via mouse , but the whole system was designed to work with this thing and it was {disfmarker} It was a lot of engineering stuff . No science in there whatsoever , but it 's working now , and um , that 's the good news . So everything else actually did prove to be language independent except for the parsing and the generation .
Grad D: Why {disfmarker} I had {disfmarker} I did need to chan generate different trees than the German ones , mainly because you know like uh , the gerund in {disfmarker} in German is automatically taken care of with just a regular verb ,
Grad E: You have to switch it on .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: so I 'd uh have to add " am walking , "
Grad B: OK .
Grad D: or I 'd have to add a little stem for the " am " , when I build the {disfmarker} built the tree .
Grad B: OK . Yeah , I noticed that um , that some of the examples they had , had you know , non - English word orders and so on , you know . And then all that good stuff . So .
Professor C: Alright .
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad B: Like .
Professor C: So it might be worth , Keith , you looking at this ,
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: um
Grad B: I {disfmarker} I still don't {disfmarker} I still don't really understand e like {disfmarker}
Grad D: Well Tilman s
Grad B: I mean we sort of say , um {disfmarker} You know , I {disfmarker} I still don't exactly understand sort of the information flow uh in {disfmarker} in this thing , or what the modules are and so on . So , you know , like just that such - and - such module uh um decides that it wants to achieve the goal of greeting the user , and then magically it sort of s
Professor C: Yeah {disfmarker}
Grad B: I mean , how does it know which syntactic structure to pull out , and all that ?
Professor C: I thi Yeah . So . I think it 's not worth going over in the group ,
Grad B: R uh Sure .
Professor C: but sort of when you get free and you have the time uh either Robert or Johno or I can walk you through it .
Grad B: Yeah , soon . OK .
Professor C: And you can ask all the questions about how this all fits together .
Grad B: That 's fine .
Professor C: It 's eee {comment} messy but once you understand it you understand it . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} There 's nothing really complicated about it .
Grad B: OK .
Grad E: No .
Grad B: And I remember one thing that {disfmarker} that came up in the talk last Wednesday . Um , was this , I {disfmarker} I think he talked about the idea of like , um {disfmarker} He was talking about these lexicalized uh , uh , tree adjoining grammars where you sort of {disfmarker} for each word you , um {disfmarker}
Grad D: OK , you know how to do it ?
Grad B: For each lexical item , the lexical entry says what all the uh trees are that it can appear in . And of course , that 's not v That 's the opposite of constructional . That 's , you know , that 's {disfmarker} that 's HPSG or whatever .
Professor C: Right .
Grad B: You know ?
Professor C: Right . Now , we 're {disfmarker} we 're not committed for our research to {pause} do any of those things .
Grad B: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor C: So uh we are committed for our funding .
Grad B: Right .
Professor C: OK ? to {pause} uh {disfmarker}
Grad B: Make our stuff fit to that .
Professor C: Yeah , to {disfmarker} n no , to just get the dem get the demos they need .
Grad B: Uh - huh .
Professor C: OK ? So between us all we have t to get th the demos they need . If it turns out we can also give them lots more than that by , you know , tapping into other things we do , that 's great .
Grad D: You should probably move the microphone closer to your face .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: But i it turns out not to be in an any of the contracts
Grad D: There 's like a little {disfmarker} The twisty thing , you can move it with .
Grad B: OK .
Professor C: and , s deliberately . So , the reason I 'd like you to understand uh what 's going on in this demo system is not because it 's important to the research . It 's just for closure . So that if we come up with a question of " could we fit this deeper stuff in there ? " or something . You know what the hell we we 're talking about fitting in .
Grad B: Right . OK .
Professor C: So it 's just , uh in the sam same actually with the rest of us we just need to really understand what 's there . Is there anything we can make use of ? Uh , is there anything we can give back , beyond th the sort of minimum requirements ? But none of that has a short time fuse .
Grad B: OK .
Professor C: So th the demo the demo requirements for this Fall are sort of taken care of as of later this week or something . And then {disfmarker} So , it 's probably fifteen months or something until there 's another serious demo requirement .
Grad B: Oh OK .
Professor C: That doesn't mean we don't think about it for fifteen months ,
Grad B: Right .
Professor C: but it means we can not think about it for six months .
Grad B: Right , yeah .
Professor C: So . The plan for this summer uh , really is to step back from the applied project ,
Grad E: Right .
Professor C: keep the d keep the context open , but actually go after the basic issues .
Grad B: Hmm . Oh OK .
Professor C: And , so The idea is there 's this uh , other subgroup that 's worrying about formalizing the nota getting a notation . But sort of in parallel with that , uh , the hope is tha in particularly you will work on constructions in English Ge - and German for this domain ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: but y not worry about parsing them or fitting them into SmartKom or any of the other {disfmarker} anything lik any other constraints for the time being .
Grad B: Yeah . OK . Got it .
Professor C: It 's hard enough to get it semantically and syntactically right and then {disfmarker} and get the constructions in their form and stuff .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: And , I don I don't want you f feeling that you have to somehow meet all these other constraints .
Grad B: Right , OK .
Professor C: Um . And similarly with the parsing , uh we 're gonna worry about parsing uh , the general case you know , construction parser for general constructions . And , if we need a cut - down version for something , or whatever , we 'll worry about that later .
Grad B: OK .
Professor C: So I 'd like to , for the summer turn into science mode .
Grad B: OK .
Professor C: And I assume that 's also , uh , your plan as well .
Grad B: So I mean , the {disfmarker} the point is that like the meetings um so far that I 've been at have been {disfmarker} sort of been geared towards this demo ,
Professor C: Right . Yeah . Yeah .
Grad B: and then that 's going to go away pretty soon .
Professor C: But {disfmarker} but we we 're swit
Grad B: OK .
Professor C: Right .
Grad B: And then we 'll sort of shift gears a Fairly substantially ,
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: It 's {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad B: huh ?
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: It 's got . What I {disfmarker} what I think is {disfmarker} is a good idea that I can {disfmarker} can show to anyone who 's interested , we can even make a {disfmarker} sort of an internal demo , and I {disfmarker} I show you what I do ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: I speak into it and you hear it talk ,
Grad B: OK .
Grad E: and I can sort of walk f through the information . So , this is like in half hour or forty - five minutes . Just fun .
Grad B: OK .
Grad E: And so you {disfmarker} when somebody on the streets com comes up to you and asks you what is SmartKom so you can , sort of , give a sensible answer .
Grad B: Right . OK .
Professor C: So , c sh we could set that up as actually an institute wide thing ? Just give a talk in the big room , and {disfmarker} and so peo people know what 's going on ? when you 're ready ?
Grad E: Absolutely .
Professor C: Yeah I mean , that 's the kind of thing {disfmarker} That 's the level at which you know we can just li invite everybody and say " this is a project that we 've been working on and here 's a demo version of it " and stuff like that .
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad E: OK . Well d we {disfmarker} we do wanna have all the bugs out b where you have to sort of pipe in extra XML messages from left and right before you 're {disfmarker}
Grad B: Uh - huh .
Professor C: Indeed .
Grad E: Yeah . OK . Makes sense .
Professor C: But any so that {disfmarker} e e It 's clear , then , I think . Actually , roughly starting uh let 's say , nex next meeting , cuz this meeting we have one other thing to tie up besides the trip report .
Grad B: Yeah . OK .
Professor C: But uh starting next meeting I think we want to flip into this mode where {disfmarker} Uh . I mean there are a lot of issues , what 's the ontology look like ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: you know what do the constructions look like , what 's the execution engine look like , mmm lots of things .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: But , more focused on uh an idealized version than just getting the demo out . Now before we do that , let 's get back in {disfmarker} Oh ! But , it 's still , I think , useful for you to understand the demo version enough , so that you can {disfmarker} can see what {disfmarker} what it is that {disfmarker} that uh it might eventually get retro - fitted into or something .
Grad B: Yeah . OK , right .
Professor C: And Johno 's already done that , uh , looked at the dem uh the {disfmarker} looked at the SmartKom stuff .
Grad D: Wa uh {disfmarker} To some de uh what {disfmarker} what part of th the SmartKom stuff ?
Professor C: Well , the parser , and that stuff .
Grad D: Oh yeah {disfmarker} yeah .
Professor C: OK . Anyway . So , the trip {disfmarker} the report on these {disfmarker} the last we we sort of interrupted you guys telling us about what happened last week .
Grad B: Yeah . It 's alright .
Grad E: Um . {vocalsound} Well it was just amazing to {disfmarker} to see uh how {disfmarker} how instable the whole thing is ,
Professor C: Maybe you 're done , then .
Grad E: and if you just take the {disfmarker} And I g I got the feeling that we are {pause} the only ones right now who have a running system . I don't know what the guys in Kaiserslautern have running because e the version {disfmarker} that is , the full version that 's on the server d does not work . And you need to do a lot of stuff to make it work . And so it 's {disfmarker} And even Tilman and Ralf sort of said " yeah there never was a really working version that uh did it without th all the shortcuts that they built in for the uh October @ @ version " . So we 're actually maybe ahead of the System Gruppe by now , the system {disfmarker} the integration group . And it was , uh {disfmarker} It was fun to some extent , but the uh the outcome that is sort of of scientific interest is that I think both Ralf and Tilman {disfmarker} um , I know that they enjoyed it here , and they r they {disfmarker} they liked , uh , a lot of the stuff they saw here , what {disfmarker} what we have been thinking about , and they 're more than willing to {disfmarker} to um , cooperate , by all means . And um , part of my responsibility is uh to use our internal " group - ware " server at EML , make that open to all of us and them , so that whatever we discuss in terms of parsing and {disfmarker} and generating and constructions w we {disfmarker} we sort of uh put it in there and they put what they do in there and maybe we can even um , get some overlap , get some synergy out of that . And um , the , uh {disfmarker} If I find someone at {disfmarker} in EML that is interested in that , um I {disfmarker} I may even think that we could look {disfmarker} take constructions and {disfmarker} and generate from them because the tree adjoining grammars that {disfmarker} that Tilman is using is as you said nothing but a mathematical formalism . And you can just do anything with it , whether it 's syntactic trees , H P S G - like stuff , or whether it 's construction . So if you ever get to the generation side of constructing things and there might be something of interest there , but in the moment we 're of course definitely focused on the understanding , um , pipeline .
Professor C: Anyth - any other {vocalsound} {comment} uh repo visit reports sort of stories ? uh we {disfmarker} so we now know I think , what the landscape is like .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And so we just push on and {disfmarker} and uh , do what we need to do . And one of the things we need to do is the um , and this I think is relatively tight {disfmarker} tightly constrained , is to finish up this belief - net stuff . So . Uh . And I was going to switch to start talking about that unless there 're m other more general questions . OK so here 's where we are on the belief - net stuff as far as I understand it . Um . Going back I guess two weeks ago uh Robert had laid out this belief - net , missing only the connections . Right ? That is {disfmarker} {comment} So , he 'd put all th all the dots down , and we went through this , and , I think , more or less convinced ourselves that at least the vast majority of the nodes that we needed for the demo level we were thinking of , were in there . Yeah {comment} we may run across one or two more . But of course the connections weren't . So , uh Bhaskara and I went off and looked at some technical questions about were certain operations sort of legitimate belief - net computations and was there some known problem with them or had someone already uh , solved you know how to do this and stuff . And so Bhaskara tracked that down . The answer seems to be uh , " no , no one has done it , but yes it 's a perfectly reasonable thing to do if that 's what you set out to do " . And , so the current state of things is that , again , starting now , um we 'd like to actually get a running belief - net for this particular subdomain done in the next few weeks . So Bhaskara is switching projects as of the first of June , and uh , he 's gonna leave us an inheritance , which is a uh {disfmarker} hopefully a belief - net that does these things . And there 're two aspects to it , one of which is , you know , technical , getting the coding right , and making it run , and uh stuff like that . And the other is the actual semantics . OK ? What all {disfmarker} you know , what are the considerations and how and what are the ways in which they relate . So he doe h he doesn't need help from this group on the technical aspects or if he does uh we 'll do that separately .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: But in terms of what are the decisions and stuff like that , that 's something that we all have to work out . Is {disfmarker} is that right ? I mean that 's {disfmarker} that 's both you guys ' understanding of where we are ?
Grad E: Absolutely .
Professor C: OK .
Grad G: So , I guess , um {disfmarker} Is there like a latest version of the belief - net {disfmarker} of the proposed belief - net ? Like {disfmarker}
Grad E: We had um decided {disfmarker}
Grad G: like {disfmarker}
Grad E: Um . Well , no , we didn't decide . We wanted to look into maybe getting it , the visualization , a bit clearer , but I think if we do it , um , sort of a paper version of all the nodes and then the connections between them , that should suffice .
Grad G: Mm - hmm . Yeah , that should be fine .
Professor C: Yeah I mean , that 's a separate problem .
Grad D: Yeah , I {disfmarker}
Professor C: We do in the long run wanna do better visualization and all that stuff .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: That 's separable , yeah .
Grad D: I did look into that , uh in terms of , you know , exploding the nodes out and down ag
Professor C: Yep . Right .
Grad D: JavaBayes does not support that . I can imagine a way of hacking at the code to do that . It 'd probably take two weeks or so to actually go through and do it ,
Professor C: Not {disfmarker} not at this point .
Grad D: and I went through all the other packages on Murph - Kevin Murphy 's page ,
Professor C: Right .
Grad D: and I couldn't find the necessary mix of free and uh with the GUI and , with this thing that we want .
Professor C: Well , we can p If it 's {disfmarker} If we can pay {disfmarker} Yeah . If you know it 's paying a thousand dollars or something we can do that . OK ? So {disfmarker} so don't view free as {disfmarker} as a absolute constraint .
Grad D: OK . OK , so then I 'll go back and look at the ones on the list that {disfmarker}
Professor C: OK . And you can ask Kevin .
Grad E: But {disfmarker}
Grad G: Yeah .
Grad D: Mmm .
Grad E: But {disfmarker}
Grad G: Yeah , the one that uh people seem to use is uh Hugin or whatever ?
Professor C: Hugin , yeah that 's free .
Grad G: How exp I don't think it 's {disfmarker} Is it free ? Because I 've seen it advertised in places so I {disfmarker} it seems to {disfmarker}
Professor C: Uh , it may be free to academics . Like I {disfmarker} I don't know . I have a co {comment} I have a copy {comment} that I l I downloaded .
Grad G: OK .
Professor C: So , at one point it was free .
Grad G: OK .
Professor C: Uh but yo I noticed people do use Hugin so um ,
Grad D: How do you spell that ?
Professor C: HUGIN .
Grad F: Why
Professor C: And Bhaskara can give you a pointer . So then , in any case , um {disfmarker} But paying a lit You know , if i if it 's uh {disfmarker} Probably for university , it 's {disfmarker} it 's gonna be real cheap anyway . But um , you know , if it 's fifty thousand dollars we aren't gonna do it . I 'm mean , we have no need for that .
Grad E: I {disfmarker} I also s would suggest not to d spend two weeks in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in changing the {disfmarker} the JavaBayes code .
Professor C: No ,
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: he 's not gonna do that .
Grad D: OK .
Grad E: I {disfmarker} I will send you a pointer to a Java applet that does that , it 's sort of a fish - eye . You {disfmarker} you have a node , and you click on it , and it shows you all the connections ,
Grad D: Mmm .
Grad E: and then if you click on something else that moves away , that goes into the middle . And maybe there is an easy way of interfacing those two . If that doesn't work , it 's not a problem we {disfmarker} we need to solve right now . What I 'm {disfmarker} what my job is , I will , um , give you the input in terms of {disfmarker} of the internal structure . Maybe node by node , or something like this ? Or should I collect it all
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: and {disfmarker}
Professor C: Doesn't matter .
Grad G: Um , just any like {disfmarker} like sort of rough representation of the entire belief - net is probably best .
Grad E: OK . And um you 're gonna be around ? t again , always Tuesdays and Thursdays afternoon - ish ? As usual ? Or will that change ?
Grad G: Yeah {disfmarker} I mean , yeah , I can {disfmarker} like I c Um . This week I guess um , kind of {disfmarker} I have a lot of projects and stuff but after that I will generally be more free . So yes , I might {disfmarker} I can be around . And g I mean , generally if you email me also I can be around on other days .
Grad E: Yeah . OK .
Professor C: Yeah and this is not a crisis that {disfmarker} I mean , you do , e everybody who 's a student should , you know do their work , get their c courses all in good shape and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and then we 'll dig {disfmarker} d dig down on this .
Grad E: Yeah , that 's {disfmarker} Yeah . OK . No , that 's good . That means I have I h I can spend this week doing it . So .
Grad G: OK .
Grad B: How do you go about this process of deciding what these connections are ? I know that there 's an issue of how to weight the different things too , and stuff . Right ? I mean do you just sort of guess and see if it sort of {disfmarker}
Professor C: Right . Well there {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there There 're two different things you do .
Grad E: It 's {disfmarker}
Professor C: One is you design and the other is you learn . OK ? So uh what we 're gonna do initially is {disfmarker} is do design , and , i if you will , guess .
Grad B: OK .
Professor C: OK . Uh that is you know use your best knowledge of {disfmarker} of the domain to uh , hypothesize what the dependencies are and stuff .
Grad B: Right . OK .
Professor C: If it 's done right , and if you have data then , there are techniques for learning the numbers given the structure
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: and there are even techniques for learning the structure , although that takes a lot more data , and it 's not as @ @ and so forth and so on . So uh but for the limited amount of stuff we have for this particular exercise I think we 'll just design it .
Grad B: Alright .
Grad E: Yeah . Fo - Hopefully as time passes we 'll get more and more data from Heidelberg and from people actually using it and stuff .
Grad B: OK .
Grad E: So but this is the {pause} {vocalsound} {comment} {pause} long run .
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad E: But to solve our problems ag uh a mediocre design will do I think in the beginning .
Grad B: Yeah , that 's right . Yeah , oh , and by the way , speaking of data , um , are there I could swore {disfmarker} uh , I could swear I saw it sitting on someone 's desk at some point , but is there a {disfmarker} um a transcript of any of the , sort of , initial interactions of people with the {disfmarker} with the system ? Cuz you know , I 'm still sort of itching to {disfmarker} to look at what {disfmarker} look at the stuff , and see what people are saying .
Professor C: Mm - hmm . Yeah . Yeah make yourself a note . So and {disfmarker} and , of course Keith would like the German as well as the English , so whatever you guys can get .
Grad E: The German . Oh yeah , of course , German . Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah , the y your native language , right ? You remember that one .
Grad E: OK . That 's important , yeah .
Grad B: Yeah ,
Professor C: So he 'll get you some data .
Grad B: u OK . Yeah , I mean I {disfmarker} I sort of um found the uh , uh the audio of some of those , and um , it kind of sounded like I didn't want to trudge through that , you know .
Grad E: Hmm .
Grad B: It was just {disfmarker} Strange , but .
Professor C: Yep .
Grad E: We probably will not get those to describe because they were trial runs .
Grad B: Oh yeah , OK .
Grad E: Um , but uh that 's th but we have data in English and German already .
Grad B: OK , yeah , I mean .
Grad E: So . {disfmarker} Transcribed . I will send you that . OK .
Professor C: OK , so while we 're still at this sort of top level , anything else that we oughta talk about today ?
Grad E: Ho - how was your thingy .
Grad B: Oh , um , I just wanted to , uh , s like mention as an issue , um , you know last meeting I wasn't here because I went to a linguistics colloquium on the fictive motion stuff ,
Professor C: Oh right .
Grad B: and that was pretty interesting and you know , I mean , seems to me that that will fairly obviously be of relevance to uh {disfmarker} to what we 're doing here because you know people are likely to give descriptions like you know , " What 's that thing uh right where you start to go up the hill , " or something like that , you know , meaning a few feet up the hill or whatever from some reference point and all that stuff so I mean , I 'm sure in terms of you know , people trying to state locations or , you know , all that kind of stuff , this is gonna be very relevant . So , um , now that was {disfmarker} the talk was about English versus Japanese , um , which obviously the Japanese doesn't affect us directly , except that , um , some of the construction {disfmarker} he 'd {disfmarker} what he talked about was that you know in English we say things like th you know , " your bike is parked across the street " and we use these prepositional phrases , you know , " well , if you were to move across the street you would be at the bike " , but um in {disfmarker} in Japanese the {disfmarker} the more conventionalized tendency is to use a {disfmarker} sort of a description of " where one has crossed to the river , there is a tree " . Um , and you know , you can actually say things like , um , " there 's a tree where one has crossed the river , but no one has ever crossed the river " , or something like that . So the idea is that this really is you know that 's supposed show that 's it 's really fictive and so on . But um {disfmarker} But the point is that that kind of construction is also used in English , you know , like " right where you start to go up the hill " , or " just when you get off the train " , or something like that to {disfmarker} uh , to indicate where something is .
Professor C: Mmm .
Grad B: So we 'll have to think about {disfmarker}
Professor C: So {disfmarker} how much is that used in German ?
Grad E: Um . The uh {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} I wa I was on a uh {disfmarker} on a {disfmarker} on a different sidetrack .
Professor C: Oh , OK .
Grad E: I mean , the {disfmarker} the Deep Map project which um is undergoing some renovation at {disfmarker} at the moment , but this is a {disfmarker} a three language project : German , English , Japanese .
Grad B: OK .
Grad E: And um , we have a uh , uh {disfmarker} I have taken care that we have the {disfmarker} the Japanese generation and stuff . And so I looked into uh spatial description . So we can generate spatial descriptions , how to get from A to B . And {disfmarker} and information on objects , in German , English , and Japanese .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: And there is a huge uh project on spatial descriptions uh {disfmarker} differences in spatial descriptions . Well , if yo if you 're interested in that , so how {disfmarker} how , I mean it does sort of go d all the way down to the conceptual level to some extent .
Grad B: OK .
Grad E: So . Um .
Professor C: So , where is this huge project ?
Grad E: It 's KLEIST . It 's the uh Bielefeld generation of uh spatial descriptions and whatever .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad E:
Professor C: Well , that may be another thing that Keith wants to look at .
Grad B: OK .
Grad E: But um , I {disfmarker} I think we should leave Japanese constructions maybe outside of the scope for {disfmarker} for now ,
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad E: but um definitely it 's interesting to look at {disfmarker} at cross the bordered there .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Are {disfmarker} are you going to p pay any attention to the relative position {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of the direction relative {disfmarker} relative to the speaker ? For example , there are some differences between Hebrew and English . We can say um " park in front of the car " as you come beh you drive behind the car . In Hebrew it means " park behind the car " , because to follow the car is defined as it faces you .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . Intrinsic , yeah .
PhD A: While in English , front of the car is the absolute front of the car .
Grad B: OK .
PhD A: So .
Grad B: Right , so the canonical direction of motion determines where the front is .
PhD A: Right . Right .
Grad B: OK .
PhD A: So , i i i is German uh closer to {disfmarker} to E uh , uh , uh , uh {disfmarker} to E I mean uh
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: I don't think it {disfmarker} it 's related to syntax , though , so it may be entirely different .
Grad E: Um , as a matter of fact {disfmarker}
Professor C: No , it 's not .
Grad B: Right .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad E: Um . Did you ever get to look at the {disfmarker} the rou paper that I sent you on the {disfmarker} on that problem in English and German ?
Grad B: I think {disfmarker}
Grad E: Carroll , ninety - three . Um . I {disfmarker} There is a {disfmarker} a study on the differences between English and German on exactly that problem .
PhD A: Hmm .
Grad E: So it 's {disfmarker} they actually say " the monkey in front of the car , where 's the monkey ? "
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: And , um , they found statistically very significant differences in English and German , so I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} It might be , since there are only a finite number of ways of doing it , that {disfmarker} that German might be more like Hebrew in that respect .
Grad B: Hmm .
Grad E: The solution they proposed was that it was due to syntactic factors .
PhD A: That {disfmarker} but it wasn't {disfmarker} was {disfmarker}
Grad E: That syntactic facto factors do {disfmarker} do play a role there , wh whether you 're more likely , you know , to develop uh , choices that lead you towards using uh intrinsic versus extrinsic reference frames .
PhD A: Right . Mm - hmm . Right .
Grad B: I mean , it seems to me that you can get both in {disfmarker} in English depending o
Professor C: Hmm .
Grad B: You know , like , " in front of the car " could you know {disfmarker} Like , here 's the car sideways to me in between me and the car or something 's in front of the car , or whatever . I could see that ,
Professor C: Absolutely .
Grad B: but {disfmarker} But anyway , so you know , I mean , this was {disfmarker} this was a {disfmarker} a very good talk on those kinds of issues and so on . So uh .
Grad E: I can also give you uh , a pointer to a paper of mine which is the {disfmarker} the ultimate taxonomy of reference frames .
Grad B: Alright ! Cool !
Grad E: So .
Professor C: Oh .
Grad E: I 'm the only person in the world who actually knows how it works .
Professor C: Oh .
Grad E: Not really .
Professor C: Great . No , I 've not seen that .
PhD A: What do you mean . Um . " reference frames " ?
Grad E: It 's called a {disfmarker}
PhD A: uh uh
Grad E: It 's {disfmarker} it 's spatial reference frames . You actually have only {disfmarker} Um . If you wanna have a {disfmarker} This is usually um {disfmarker} I should {disfmarker} there should be an " L " , though . Well actually you have {disfmarker} only have two choices . You can either do a two - point or a three - point which is you You 're familiar with th with the " origo " ? where that 's the center {disfmarker} " Origo " is the center of the f frame of reference .
Grad B: Hmm .
Grad E: And then you have the reference object and the object to be localized .
Grad B: Hmm .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: OK ? In some cases the origo is the same as the reference object .
Professor C: So that would be " origin " in English ,
Grad F: This was like {disfmarker}
Grad B: The origin .
PhD A: Right
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: right ?
Grad E: " Origo " is a Terminus technikus . in that sense , that 's even used in the English literature . " Origo . "
Grad B: Oh , OK . I never heard it .
Professor C: Alright .
PhD A: OK .
Grad B: OK .
Grad E: And um , so , this video tape is in front of me .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: I 'm the origo and I 'm also the reference object .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Right .
Grad E: Those are two - point .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: And three - point relations is if something has an intrinsic front side like this chair then your f shoe is behind the chair .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: And , reference object and {disfmarker} Um . No , from {disfmarker} from my point of view your shoe is left of the chair .
Grad B: Right . You {disfmarker} you can actually say things like , um , " it 's behind the tree from me " or something like that , I think , in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in certain circumstances in English , right ? As sort of " from where I 'm standing it would appear that " {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah . Yeah . So ,
Grad F: Looks a little bit like Reichenbach for time .
Professor C: Yeah , it sounds like it , doesn't it ,
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: yeah .
Grad F: It 's a lot like it .
Grad E: And then {disfmarker} and then here you {disfmarker}
Grad F: Um .
Grad E: On this scale , you have it either be ego or allocentric .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: And that 's {comment} {disfmarker} that 's basically it . So . Egocentric two - point , egocentric three - point , or you can have allocentric .
Grad B: Oh , OK .
Grad E: So , " as seen from the church , the town hall is right of that um , fire station " . aa - huh {comment} It 's hardly ever used but it 's w
PhD A: I 'd love to see it if you {disfmarker} if you have a copy kind of . Uh .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah . I see this is {disfmarker} this is getting into Ami 's thing .
PhD A: Here
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: He 's {disfmarker} he 's very interested in that .
Grad E: OK .
Professor C: So .
Grad B: Me too .
Professor C: Uh . Yeah . Well , why don't you just put it on the web page ? There 's this EDU {disfmarker} Right ?
Grad E: Yeah it 's {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or just {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor C: Or a link to it .
Grad E: It 's also all on my {disfmarker} my home page at EML . It 's called " An Anatomy of a Spatial Description " .
Professor C: Just
Grad E: But I 'll send that link .
PhD A: OK , great .
Professor C: Maybe just put a link on . Yeah .
Grad E: Yep .
Professor C: By the way , there {disfmarker} something that I didn't know until about a week ago or so , is apparently , there are separate brain areas for things within reach , and things that are out of reach .
Grad E: Yep .
Grad B: Huh .
Professor C: So there 's {disfmarker} there 's uh all this linguistic stuff about you know , near and far , or yon and {disfmarker} and so forth .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: So this is all {disfmarker} This is {disfmarker} There 's this linguistic facts . But apparently , the {disfmarker} Uh . Here 's the way the findings go . That , you know they do MRI , and {disfmarker} and if you 're uh {disfmarker} got something within reach then there 's one of your areas lights up , and if something 's out of reach uh a different one . But here 's the {disfmarker} the amazing result , um , they say . You get someone with a {disfmarker} with a deficit so that they have a perfectly normal ability at distance things . So the s typical task is subdivision . So there 's a {disfmarker} a line on the wall over there , and you give them a laser pointer , and you say , " Where 's the midpoint ? " And they do fine . If you give them the line , and they have to touch it , they can't . There 's just that part of the brain isn't functioning , so they can't do that . Here 's the real experiment . The same thing on the wall , you give them a laser , " where is it ? " ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: they do it . Give them a stick , long stick , and say " do it " , they can't do it . So there 's a remapping of distant space into nearby space .
PhD A: Right . So they doubled {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the end {disfmarker} the end of this {disfmarker}
Grad F: Because it 's within reach now ?
Grad B: Yeah ,
Professor C: It 's not within reach and you use the Within - Reach uh , mechanism .
Grad B: yeah .
Grad F: Oh . Wow .
Grad B: Circuits .
PhD A: Right .
Professor C: So I 'll d I 'll dig you up this reference .
Grad B: That 's cool .
Professor C: And so this doe This is , uh {disfmarker} First of all , it explains something that I 've always wondered about and I 'll do this {disfmarker} this test on you guys as well . So . Uh . How - I have had an experience , not often , but a certain number of times , when , for example , I 'm working with a tool , a screwdriver or something , for a long time , I start feeling the tip directly . Not indirectly , but you actually can feel the tip .
Grad B: Yeah yeah .
Professor C: And people who are uh accomplished violinists and stuff like that , claim they also have this kind of thing where you get a direct sensation of , physical sensation , of the end affector .
Grad B: Yeah . What 's going on at the end of the tool ,
PhD A: The ext the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} The extension ,
Grad B: yeah .
Professor C: Huh ?
Grad B: What 's going on at the end of the tool , or whatever .
Professor C: Yeah , within {disfmarker}
PhD A: right .
Professor C: Huh ?
PhD A: The extension of {disfmarker} of your hand , right .
Professor C: Yeah , right . Have you hav y h had this ?
PhD A: The {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think so . I mean i i it 's not exactly the th same thing , but {disfmarker} but s it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's getting close to that .
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad F: W what does it feel like ?
Professor C: Oh i it feels like your {disfmarker} as if your uh neurons had extended themselves out to this tool , and you 're feeling forces on it and so forth and {disfmarker} and you deal directly with it .
PhD A: I once {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was playing you know with those um uh devices that allow you to manipulate objects when it 's dangerous to get close ? So you can insert your hand something
Grad B: Oh , OK .
Professor C: Right , yeah {disfmarker} yeah {disfmarker} yeah . Yeah .
PhD A: and there 's a correspondence between {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD A: So I played with it . After a while , you don't feel the difference anymore . I {disfmarker} I mean it 's kind of {disfmarker}
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Yeah , right .
PhD A: Very {disfmarker} kind of {disfmarker} you stop back and suddenly it goes away and you have to kind of work again to recapture it , but yeah .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: Right , Yeah , so anyway , so {disfmarker} So this was the first actual experimental evidence I 'd seen that was consistent with this anecdotal stuff .
Grad B: That 's cool .
Professor C: And of course it makes a lovely def uh story about why languages uh , make this distinction . Of course there are behavioral differences too . Things you can reach are really quite different than things you can't .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: But there seems to be an actu really deep embodied neural difference . And i this is , um {disfmarker} So . In addition to the e
Grad E: This is more proximal - distal .
Professor C: Yeah uh exactly . So in addition to e ego and allocentric uh which appear all over the place , you also apparently have this proximal - distal thing which is very deeply uh embedded . S
Grad E: Well , Dan Montello sort of , he {disfmarker} he does the uh uh {disfmarker} th the cognitive map world , down in Santa Barbara . And he {disfmarker} he always talks about these {disfmarker} He {disfmarker} he already {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} i probably most likely without knowing this {disfmarker} this evidence uh is talking about these small scale spaces that you can manipulate versus large scale environmental spaces .
Professor C: Yeah . Well there 's {disfmarker} there 's uh been a lot of behavioral things o on this , but that was the first neur neuro - physiological thing I saw . Anyway yeah , so we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll look at this . And . So , all of these issues now {disfmarker} are now starting to come up . So , now {disfmarker} we 're now done with demos . We 're starting to do science , right ? And so these issues about uh , reference , and {disfmarker} spatial {comment} reference , discourse reference , uh - uh - uh - uh {comment} all this sort of stuff , uh , deixis which is part of what you were talking about ,
Grad B: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor C: um {disfmarker} So , all of this stuff is coming up essentially starting now . So we gotta do all this . So there 's that . And then there 's also a set of system things that come up . So " OK , we 're not using their system . That means we need our system . "
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Right ?
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: It {disfmarker} it follows . And so , uh , in addition to the business about just getting the linguistics right , and the formalism and stuff , we 're actually gonna build something and uh , Johno is point person on the parser , analyzer , whatever that is , and we 're gonna start on that in parallel with the um , the grammar stuff .
Grad B: Alright .
Professor C: But to do that we 're gonna need to make some decisions like ontology , so , um {disfmarker} And so this is another thing where we 're gonna , you know , have to get involved and make s relatively early I think , make some decisions on uh , " is there an ontology API that {disfmarker} that " {disfmarker} There 's a sort of standard way of getting things from ontologies and we build the parser and stuff around that , or is there a particular ontology that we 're gonna standardize on , and if so {disfmarker} For example , is there something that we can use there . i Does uh either the uh SmartKom project or one of the projects at EML have something that we can just p pull out , for that . Uh , so there are gonna be some {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} some things like that , which are not science but system . But we aren't gonna ignore those cuz we 're {disfmarker} we 're not only going {disfmarker} The plan is not only to lay out this thing , but to actually uh build some of it . And how much we build , and {disfmarker} and so forth .
Grad B: I {disfmarker}
Professor C: Uh . Part of it , if it works right , is wh It looks like we 're now in a position that the construction analyzer that we want for this applied project can be the same as the construction analyzer that Nancy needs for the child language modeling . So . It 's always been out of phase but it now seems that um , there 's a good shot at that . So we 've talked about it , and the hope is that we can make these things the same thing ,
Grad B: OK .
Professor C: and of course it 's only w In both cases it 's only one piece of a bigger system .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: But it would be nice if that piece were exactly the same piece .
Grad B: Right .
Professor C: It was just this uh construction analyzer . And so we think {disfmarker} we think we have a shot at {disfmarker} at that .
Grad B: OK .
Professor C: So . The for So . To {disfmarker} to come full circle on that , this formalization task , OK ? is trying to get the formalism into {disfmarker} into a shape where it can actually uh
Grad B: Yeah . Be of use to someone who 's trying to do this , right ?
Professor C: d Well , yeah , where it actually is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} covers the whole range of things . And the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thing that got Mark into the worst trouble is he had a very ambitious thing he was trying to do , and he insisted on trying to do it with a limited set of mechanisms . It turned out , inherently not to cover the space .
Grad B: OK .
Professor C: And it just {disfmarker} it was just terribly frustrating for him ,
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: and he seemed fully committed to both sides of this i i irreconcilable thing .
Grad B: I see . Right .
Professor C: And . Uh . Johno is much more pragmatic .
Grad B: OK . Good to know .
Professor C: Uh . Huh ? Is {disfmarker} This is true , is it not ?
Grad D: Yes .
Professor C: OK . So there 's you know sort of , yeah , deep , really deep , emotional commitment to a certain theory being uh , complete .
Grad B: Oh , OK .
Grad F: You don't have a hidden purist streak ?
Grad D: Oh no .
Professor C: We - well it hasn't it {disfmarker} it certainly hasn't been observed , in any case .
Grad F: OK . Just checking .
Grad D: No sir .
Grad B: Alright .
Professor C: Um . Now , you do , but that 's OK . Uh . So . For {disfmarker} for {disfmarker}
Grad B: Cuz I don't have to implement anything .
Professor C: Exactly right . Exactly .
Grad F: I have a problem , then . It 's {disfmarker} So . Whether I do depends on whether I 'm talking to him or him probably .
PhD A: Hmm .
Grad B: Yeah , right .
Professor C: Right . Why {disfmarker} a actually , uh , the thing is , you {disfmarker} you do but , th the thing you have to im implement is so small that {disfmarker} Uh .
Grad F: Which meeting I 'm in . It 's OK to be purist within that context .
Professor C: Within that , yeah ,
Grad F: Yes ,
Professor C: and uh , it 's {disfmarker} a and still , I think , you know , get something done .
Grad F: good .
Grad B: Cool !
Professor C: But to try to do something upscale and purist Particularly if {disfmarker} if um what you 're purist about doesn't actually work , {vocalsound} is real hard .
Grad F: Yay .
Grad B: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor C: OK . And then the other thing is while we 're doing this uh Robert 's gonna pick a piece of this space ,
PhD A: It 's possible yeah .
Grad B: OK .
Professor C: OK , uh , for his absentee thesis . I think you all know that {disfmarker} that you can just , in Germany {disfmarker} almost just send in your thesis .
Grad B: Just a drive up . Ca - chuk !
PhD A: Um
Professor C: Yeah right .
Grad B: There you go .
Professor C: OK .
Grad E: The - th There {disfmarker} there 's a drive - in thesis uh sh {vocalsound} joint over in Saarbruecken .
Grad B: Exactly . Drive through , yeah .
Professor C: It costs a lot . The {disfmarker} the amount {disfmarker} You put in your credit card and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} as well . But , uh , {disfmarker} But anyway , so , uh , that 's um , also gotta be worked out , hopefully over the next few weeks , so that {disfmarker} that it becomes clear uh , what piece uh , Robert wants to jump into . And , while we 're at this level , uh , there 's at least one new doctoral student in computer science who will be joining the project , either next week or the first of August , depending on the blandishments of Microsoft .
Grad B: OK .
Professor C: So , de Uh . And her name is Eva .
Grad B: OK .
Professor C: It really is . Nobody believed th th that {disfmarker}
Grad F: Yeah , I thought it had to be a joke , of your part , you know
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad F: like {disfmarker} {comment} " Johno made it up , I 'm sure . "
Grad G: Is this person someone who 's in first - year this year ,
Professor C: No , first year coming .
Grad G: or
Professor C: So , she 's {disfmarker} she 's now out here she 's moved , and she 'll be a student as of then .
Grad G: OK .
Professor C: And probably she 'll pick up from you on the belief - net stuff , so sh she 'll be chasing you down and stuff like that .
Grad G: OK .
Professor C: Uh .
Grad E: Document .
Grad G: Right .
Professor C: Uh , against all traditions . And actually I talked today to a uh undergraduate who wants to do an honors thesis on this . Uh {disfmarker}
Grad F: Someone from the class ?
Professor C: No , interestingly enough .
Grad F: We always get these people who are not in the class , who {disfmarker}
Professor C: Some of th some of them , yeah .
Grad F: It 's interesting .
Professor C: So anyway , uh , but uh she 's another one of these ones with a three point nine average and so forth and so on .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Uh , so , um , I 've give I 've given her some things to read . So we 'll see how this goes . Oh there 's yet another one of the incoming first {disfmarker} {comment} incoming first - year graduate students who 's expressed interest , so we 'll see how that goes . Um , anyway , so , I think as far as this group goes , um , it 's certainly worth continuing for the next few weeks to get closure on the uh belief - net and the ideas that are involved in that , and what are th what are the concepts . We 'll see whether it 's gonna make sense to have this be separate from the other bigger effort with the formalization stuff or not , I 'm not sure . It partly depends on w what your thesis turns out to be and how that goes . S so , we 'll see . And then , Ami , you can decide , you know , how much time you wanna put into it and uh , it it 's beginning to take shap shape ,
PhD A: OK .
Professor C: so uh and ,
PhD A: Right
Professor C: I think you will find that if you want to look technically at some of the {disfmarker} your traditional questions in this light , uh Keith , who 's buil building constructions , will be quite happy to uh see what , you know , you envision as the issues and the problems and um , how they might uh get reflected in constructions .
Grad B: Sure .
Professor C: I suspect that 's right .
Grad B: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD A: I {disfmarker} I may have to go to Switzerland for {disfmarker} in June or beginning of July for between two weeks and four weeks , but uh , after that or before that .
Professor C: OK , fine . And , um , if it 's useful we can probably arrange for you to drop by and visit either at Heidelberg or at the German AI center , while you 're in {disfmarker} in the neighborhood .
PhD A: Right . Yeah be uh actu actually I 'm invited to do some consulting with a bank in Geneva which has an affiliation with a research institute in Geneva , which I forgot the name of .
Professor C: Yeah . Yep . E o do y
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor C: Well , we we 're connected to uh {disfmarker} There 's a {disfmarker} there 's a {disfmarker} a very significant connection between {disfmarker} We 'll {disfmarker} we 'll go through this ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor C: ICSI and EPFL , which is the , uh {disfmarker} It 's the {disfmarker} Fr Ge - Germany 's got two big technical institutes . There 's one in {disfmarker} in Zurich ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: E T and then there 's one , the French speaking one , in Lausanne ,
Grad B: Oh , so in Switzerland .
Professor C: OK ? which is uh E P
PhD A: Great .
Professor C: F L . So find out who they are associated with in Geneva .
PhD A: Right .
Professor C: Probably we 're connected to them .
PhD A: Great . I 'll let you know . S I 'll send you email .
Professor C: OK . Yeah , and so anyway we c uh {disfmarker} We can m undoubtedly get Ami uh to give a talk at uh EML or something like that . While he 's in {disfmarker} in uh {disfmarker}
Grad E: Hmm . Uh . I {disfmarker} I think the one you {disfmarker} you gave here a couple of weeks ago would be of interest there , too .
PhD A: Sure , yeah .
Professor C: A lot of interest . Actually , either place , DFKI or uh {disfmarker} Yeah , so , and {disfmarker} and if there is a book , that you 'll be building up some audience for it .
PhD A: Yeah . Right .
Professor C: And you 'll get feedback from these guys .
PhD A: Great , yeah .
Professor C: Cuz they 've actually {disfmarker} these DFKI guys have done as much as anyone over the last decade in trying to build them . So we 'll set that up .
PhD A: Cool .
Professor C: OK . So , uh , unless we wanna start digging into the {disfmarker} uh the belief - net and the decisions now , which would be fine , it 's probably {disfmarker}
Grad E: I {disfmarker} I tho It 's probably better if I come next week with the um version O point nine of the structure .
Professor C: OK . So , how about if you two guys between now and next week come up with something that is partially proposal , and partially questions , saying " here 's what we think we understand , here are the things we think we don't understand " . And that we as a group will try to {disfmarker} to finish it . What I 'd like to do is shoot f for finishing all this next Monday .
Grad G: Sure .
Professor C: OK ? Uh , " these are the decisions " {disfmarker} I don't think we 're gonna get lots more information . It 's a design problem .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: You know . We {disfmarker}
Grad G: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah . And let 's come up with a first cut at what this should look like . And then finish it up .
Grad B: OK .
Professor C: Does that so make sense ?
Grad B: OK .
Grad E: And um , the {disfmarker} the sem semester will be over next week but then you have projects for one more week to come ?
Grad G: No , I {disfmarker} I think I 'll be done {disfmarker} everything by this uh {disfmarker} by the end of this week .
Grad E: Same with you ? No .
Grad D: Nnn . This {disfmarker} Well , I 've {disfmarker} I have projects , but then the {disfmarker} my prof professor of one of my classes also wa has a final that he 's giving us . And he 's giving us five days to do it which means it going to be hard .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah . Oh . is it a take - home final ? Who 's doing this ?
Grad D: Yeah . Aikin , Alex , yeah .
Professor C: Yeah , figured . That would have been i my guess .
Grad G: Hmm .
Professor C: Right . Um , But anyway , yeah .
Grad B: Pretty soon .
Grad E: OK .
Professor C: OK , so I guess that 's
Grad D: So , the seventeenth will definitely be the last day , like it or not for me .
Professor C: Right . right . So let 's do this , and then we we well there 's gonna be some separate co these guys are talking , uh we have a group on the formalization , uh Nancy and Johno and I are gonna talk about parsers . So there 're various kinds of uh {disfmarker}
Grad B: OK .
Professor C: Of course , nothing gets done even in a meeting of seven people ,
Grad B: Right .
Professor C: right ? So , um , two or three people is the size in which actual work gets done .
Grad E: Mmm .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: So we 'll do that . Great . Oh , the other thing we wanna do is catch up with uh , Ellen and see what she 's doing because the um image schemas are going to be um , an important pa
Grad B: Yeah . Quite relevant , yeah .
Professor C: We {disfmarker} we want those ,
Grad B: Yeah , oh yeah .
Professor C: right ? And we want them formalized and stuff like that .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor C: So let me {disfmarker} let me make a note to do that .
Grad B: OK . Yeah , I 'm actually probably going to be in contact with her uh pretty soon anyway because of various of us students were going to have a reading group about precisely that sort of thing over the summer ,
Grad D: OK .
Professor C: Oh right ! Right right right !
Grad B: so .
Professor C: That 's great ! Yeah , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Shweta mentioned that , although she said it 's a secret .
Grad B: OK .
Grad D: Hi
Grad B: Right , no faculty !
Professor C: Th - the faculty aren't {disfmarker} faculty aren't supposed to know .
Grad D: Wednesday 's much better for me , yeah .
Professor C: But um , I 'm sufficiently clueless that I count as a {disfmarker}
Grad B: Yeah , right . It 's as if we didn't tell anyone at all ,
Grad D: Bhaskara .
Grad B: right . | |
doc_172 | Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay everyone's ready .
User Interface: Hello .
Project Manager: So we are here for uh for uh functional design .
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: Okay ? So we are here for the functional design meeting mm {vocalsound} so first I will show the agenda so we will uh I will take notes during this meeting so I will try to summarise it and put that summary in the shared folder if you want to look at it afterwards
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so then uh each of you will uh lead a presentation on the task that has been required last time so user requirement specification , technical function design and working design . Then I will uh present you some new project requirements I received from uh the management board . Then we will take uh the decision on on the remote control uh needed functions and then I will assign you the task for the next part of the meeting . Of the {disfmarker} of the process . So uh who want to start the the presentation of what they did ?
Industrial Designer: F do you want to start ?
User Interface: Make a start yeah .
Project Manager: You can start .
User Interface: So . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Cable , camera .
Project Manager: You have uh PowerPoint ?
User Interface: Should be in my {disfmarker} in their folder no ?
Project Manager: Ah yeah maybe there . Okay .
User Interface: Up .
Project Manager: Who are you ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um at three I think .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No ? {vocalsound} Mm .
Project Manager: Ouch . And {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We have a technical problem uh .
User Interface: Do we think w s in the {disfmarker} in the wrong folder maybe ? {vocalsound} It is possible .
Project Manager: You put it on {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No .
User Interface: It was somewhere in something like this . I don't remember the name actually must be something like messenger AMI or something .
Industrial Designer: What do you have in short cut ?
User Interface: Go up .
Industrial Designer: Participant two .
User Interface: Yeah go up .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Again . No . Go back .
Project Manager: You have no {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh maybe messenger AMI . Messenger .
Project Manager: Over . Okay .
User Interface: No . There is nothing .
Project Manager: There's no {disfmarker} We have a technical problem .
User Interface: Let's go and check .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: I'll go and check .
Industrial Designer: Otherwise , could you just describe by hand ?
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: With the the whiteboard ?
Project Manager: If you remember yeah
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: but that's {disfmarker}
User Interface: So uh . Basically {vocalsound} what we want here is a remote control right .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} So um the question well first of all what to control . So {vocalsound} most people want to have a a remote for their hi-fi and T_V_ and stuff like that .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And {disfmarker} but other people want th also remotes for {vocalsound} controlling uh and toys like robotic pets and little robots and stuff
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and other people also want to have remotes for controlling um whole house .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah , so there's a project I think called X_ house or something like that that does that , uh you can integrate your remote with uh computers stuff . So {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: there is one {disfmarker} that is one thing . The other is the the finder feature yeah by whistling or whatever . Uh if you have the finder feature then you can also have
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: uh at the same time as {disfmarker} and general voice commands if you want yeah . {vocalsound} So I think it should be a package in that case .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Uh so the user interface will consist of two parts . {vocalsound} One is the voice command part and on one is the actual buttons part . {vocalsound} Uh and th the buttons part would be uh a set of buttons for choosing devices , a set of buttons for special navigation in space ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: a set of buttons for {vocalsound} linear access of medium and a set of buttons for random access .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: What do you mean by linear access then ?
User Interface: Like a video tape goes forward , backwards , uh fast and stuff yeah .
Industrial Designer: Ah .
Project Manager: Okay so special navigation , linear access , random access
User Interface: Um .
Project Manager: and there's a fourth one no ?
User Interface: Mm ?
Project Manager: So the better now for special navigation ?
User Interface: Yeah . For special navigation for example you might have a T_V_ in the menu and you going to change yeah ?
Project Manager: Okay . Then linear access
User Interface: Uh .
Project Manager: then random access .
User Interface: Mm . Yeah and also parameter changing .
Project Manager: Ah yeah parameter okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} So if there are common parameters maybe we should put special buttons for that um
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: or maybe we could have everything uh generic but uh there are a lot of uh remotes on the market right now and {vocalsound} basically this is most of the {disfmarker} almost everybody has this stuff .
Project Manager: Okay . Okay and and voice command did you uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Voice command w we could specify anything . We could assign any button {disfmarker} a command to any button , if we have enough processing power ,
Project Manager: Okay . Okay .
User Interface: I guess so . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So that's uh that close your investigations ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Uh yeah I think so .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Not so far .
Project Manager: Maybe we can have a look at the user requirements with {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} Um I dunno if you can open the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I dunno if I can open it . Maybe you can s
Marketing: uh m is not here .
Project Manager: It's {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh in {disfmarker} yeah okay .
Project Manager: Messenger no ?
Marketing: No . In document {gap} . Mm computer yeah .
Project Manager: In which folder ?
User Interface: Where did you put it ?
Marketing: Here . Here .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Short-cut to AMI shared folder ?
User Interface: {gap} mm .
Marketing: But it's not {disfmarker} Um .
Project Manager: Maybe you can send it to me by email . Just to participant one . At AMI .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah , I can do that .
Project Manager: I will try to show it to everyone , that would be more comfortable .
Marketing: Okay . Um .
Project Manager: You send it ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's participant one ?
Project Manager: Yeah . Uh this is this email .
User Interface: I'm designing the user interface . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay . You can uh .
Project Manager: Okay . So maybe I can switch slides when you {disfmarker} whenever you ask ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: that will be more convenient . So okay , functional requirements .
Marketing: Okay so you can {disfmarker} you can go . Okay so {vocalsound} in our usability lab we observed the remote control use among one hundred subjects
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: and the subjects also filled a questionnaire
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: okay ? And here I have the results so you can see that um seventy five per cent of users find most remote controls ugly so we have to find something to make them more {vocalsound} more nice , more kind . Eighty per cents of users would spend more money when the remote control would look fancy . {vocalsound} Eighty hundred per cent of users would spend more money when the remote control would look {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: oh {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} it's not good . {vocalsound} So okay .
Project Manager: We can just keep doing that ?
Marketing: So it's not in theory {disfmarker} but I I can I can say yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Fifty f uh seventy five per cent of users say they s zap a lot . So mm {vocalsound} we have to have a remote control uh very um {vocalsound} out for that . {vocalsound} Uh the buttons have {disfmarker} are to be um uh uh like you say resist resisting to to shocks .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um and fifty per cents of users say they only use uh {vocalsound} ten per cents of but of the buttons in the {disfmarker} in the remote control .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So all the buttons we we have to put are {disfmarker} have to to have um a use a real use
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: and not only or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , so fewer buttons maybe would be good ?
Marketing: Yeah . F not many buttons , and uh and uh uh u useable buttons {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: But what kind of remote controls did you look at ?
Marketing: Sorry ?
User Interface: What kind of task was it ? It was a T_V_ ?
Marketing: Yeah . Uh {vocalsound} most for most is T_V_ .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah but in fact we {disfmarker} it it seems that we are going to make a T_V_ remote control according to new requirements I received from the management
User Interface: Huh .
Project Manager: bo I will present them in the following .
User Interface: Uh-huh . Ah ! Good .
Marketing: {vocalsound} 'Kay you can go so .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So there are other frustrations expressed by users , so they said uh they lost uh often the remote control in in the room so they want to have a way to {vocalsound} to
Project Manager: Yeah . To find it .
Marketing: to find it .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Um and um lot of the time they {disfmarker} it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So they want something s really very simple and uh easy to use .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: And uh remote controls are bad for
Project Manager: What is her other side ?
Marketing: R_S_I_ {vocalsound} um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Other side yeah , yo wa your wrist
Marketing: I dunno .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It i can become painful you can have tendonditis .
Project Manager: Oh yeah ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I did not knew that .
User Interface: If you also {gap} up on a computer in a strange position .
Project Manager: Okay so you {disfmarker} we have to make it uh more ergonomic yeah .
User Interface: Ergonomic . But uh {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Have to say ha ha . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's your job {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh .
Project Manager: Uh sorry {vocalsound} got a message from Microsoft . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay um before that I I have some some {vocalsound} some thing {vocalsound} uh to say before um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} We know that uh the user use uh a lot their um remote control um to to change channel .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um and um to to change uh volume selection of the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: and uh and not uh a lot for setting {disfmarker} for setting the the channels and uh thing things like that .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So it's better to put uh uh uh something very easy to set and uh and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . This function should be very uh accessible .
Marketing: Very accessible yes .
Project Manager: Yeah , okay . This is the main function okay .
Marketing: That's right . {vocalsound} So then we asked some questions to them
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: and um we asked this question if they prefer an L_C_D_ screen or on their remultific function remotes control
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: and if they mm pay more for speech recognition in remote control
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: and you can go {vocalsound} we have here the results of
User Interface: The first question .
Marketing: of the questions . So you know that um
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} for the younger it's very important
Project Manager: To have L_C_D_ and voice .
Marketing: to have the s yes and speech recognition . And uh and the others is not so important but uh we know that uh uh people between fifteen and twenty five are people who watch a lot T_V_ and uh who who wh can use a lot this uh .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So maybe we we can have a speech recognition in .
Project Manager: Yeah maybe this this is important .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Moreover th maybe those uh like those teenager customer could advice their parents to buy this equipment and so we can {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: we have to take care of that point of view I think or so .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay and if there is th the conclusion now . So as we say before , I think uh um a remote control lightening in the dark it's it's a good thing .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Uh not to many mud buttons like we we said before ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: e easy to use uh a way to find it easily in the room and uh uh resistant to to shock and to to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} An I s no , yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay these are the user requi
Marketing: {vocalsound} I dunno if you see something else important or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'm just thinking of some thing .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} We want to have a {disfmarker} no , I don't know if this is a good idea . We want to have a a general remote control for everything .
Project Manager: No no no . We {disfmarker} w it seems that we no want to have a T_V_ remote control . From the management board I receive an email .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Yeah .
Project Manager: Cos it would be costly uh and and also it it would take more time to develop to have a a general generic remote control .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Mm {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} it's not true I think . The the second claim that you put .
Industrial Designer: No no . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That it would be too long to develop .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I think that should be the same .
Project Manager: Oh yeah . Because I received that email from management board and they seems to tell that that if we want to be on the market as early as possible we should uh focus on T_V_ more where it seems that the market is more important . So maybe it's a good decision . I dunno . What's your opinion ?
User Interface: I have uh I've no idea I mean I should know a bit more about how fast we can uh design it .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I don't think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh yeah .
Industrial Designer: Finish tonight .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . Okay . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But basically yeah maybe I can continue with my presentation , it would be al you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but I think we have some technical problem or so . So I'm just going to describe briefly what we do in the remote control .
Project Manager: Maybe you can go to the whiteboard if you have some drawings to do
Industrial Designer: If fact {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I don't know .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Do I have {disfmarker} oh yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Now I have enough cables .
User Interface: Like a {disfmarker} you feel a bit like a dog with this stuff .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay so I'm just going to describe {disfmarker} in fact for for a remote control this is quite easy . We just have {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: sorry , I'm going {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Are you okay ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Like that . I'm just going to describe . Basically we have a a battery a power supply here . After that we just have um user interface . Let's say that um something like that , which could be um a L_C_D_ let's say or um an array of push button , something like that . Push button or a L_C_D_ . After that we we feed that into um uh an electronic chip . So I say U_C_ and I feed that to uh L_E_D_ which is uh infrared {disfmarker} um which is a an infrared um component . And so what we {disfmarker} for for myself this {disfmarker} for for us this is quite easy .
Project Manager: U_C_ is the central unit ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay yeah .
Industrial Designer: Y it's a {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} this just a chip which does all the um numerical
Project Manager: Computation .
Industrial Designer: numerical computation according to your display .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: And so for us uh this is quite easy . We just need to take {disfmarker} to define what we want to do when the user interface um wants something and after that we just do the coding to s and send that to to to the {disfmarker} not the {disfmarker} to the television .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So for us this is quite easy .
Project Manager: Okay so this is quite easy . There is not that much constraints .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Um we just have to define the processing power that we need uh especially if we want to do some uh speech recognition , in that case that mean that we are going to use more for simple {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} This will {disfmarker} think this will take more time to develop also .
Industrial Designer: Yeah of course of course .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And um but for a standard one this is really easy . It's a question of one month and so on s
User Interface: Soon .
Project Manager: To have a {disfmarker} you s you speak about with voi voice control ?
Industrial Designer: No no no no ,
Project Manager: Standard button one .
Industrial Designer: I say {disfmarker} yeah {disfmarker} standard uh standard remote control takes maybe uh one month to to do that .
User Interface: Yeah . So the only time problem is the sp voice recognition .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Definitely .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So do you have any idea of how long it would take to have voice recognition now ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Ten years .
Industrial Designer: I would say {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I would say uh about eight months to have the first results .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay so i it's a bit long yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . I can {disfmarker} Um .
Project Manager: One month for the standard one with button .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Even if we have a L_C_D_ display ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah even . I mean that this is really standard devices now . Um eight . For uh speech recognition .
Project Manager: Okay yeah . Okay so we can take this into account . So who think it would be good to go for uh like speech recognition ?
User Interface: But we don't have time to market .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah it will .
Industrial Designer: And also {disfmarker} how much uh I think
User Interface: I think we should contact management .
Industrial Designer: during the kickoff meeting you say that we we shouldn't {disfmarker} we shouldn't go up to twelve point five Euro per unit
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Euros . Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: so how many units should we sell to have a {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well each unit is is sell uh twenty five Euros .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but how many {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: How muc how much do you get {disfmarker} how much do you {disfmarker} if you buy one million units h no , one hundred thousand units .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Eh chips . We're gonna need chips right .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . How much will it cost for one hundred thousand ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Usually this is less tha at two dollars per chip .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Because we are {disfmarker}
User Interface: So you have any idea for a powerful one that has uh good enough for do speech recognition .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
User Interface: Yeah ? Okay .
Industrial Designer: we can {disfmarker}
User Interface: So .
Project Manager: It seems that that we want to sell like four million units from the first meeting .
User Interface: No it doesn't .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Okay . Four million . {gap}
Project Manager: Okay . Maybe we can uh we can look at the new requirement I receive from the management board and discus discuss all function we want to have .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Um I just had a question uh do you want to continue with your presenta ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah I I will continue .
Industrial Designer: Is it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well ask your question if you want .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um you say that I don't remember by heart but thirty per cent
Marketing: Mm ?
Industrial Designer: of the tested people say that's it's quite difficult to to to use the remote control .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Do they say that this is difficult but for the same reason or do they have other reason ? To to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh .
Industrial Designer: maybe to keep in mind maybe to access to that menu you should do something like that .
Marketing: Would j Uh {vocalsound} yeah w I I think they they say that it's uh difficult to learn how to use it but i when you know how to use it , it's it's okay .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay . It's not intuitive first .
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker}
Marketing: But {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But yeah maybe and what about if we design a remote control which can be configure as you want ? You say that I want , I have six button {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mh-hmm . A a lot of people are uh {disfmarker} if you have the L_C_D_ screen if you can do it completely the way you want because the buttons also look the way you want them
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . But , but also it seems that {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: but it will be hard to configure I mean imagine i uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: so it's really something for the expert user . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: I mean there are markets and markets . I think the young people are th uh are uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Christine here said uh you have a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} uh it is yeah . {vocalsound} So for our young people uh it will be cool , they can be able to use it . Th maybe their parents will not but they will configure it . I guess . I don't know if there is study about that .
Project Manager: Yeah . Maybe it would be more complex to configure it to be simple {vocalsound} than creating a simple product .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: And there are {disfmarker} another thing is that if we make something that's simple and easy to use that's bas to use immediately that means that it will be exactly the same as everything else .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: All right ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Otherwise , if it's different then of course everybody has {disfmarker} somebody has to learn to use it first .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: But also we we see that that most people find it {disfmarker} find remote controls too complex because they have too many buttons and they mainly use only channels and volume buttons .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: So we may just uh make a very easy to use remote control with mainly those buttons
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: and maybe also um some lightning stuff too because most people find also hard to to find the remote control . Losed lose it etcetera .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: These {disfmarker} these are {disfmarker} these two points are the main frustrations so maybe if we design something very simple and easy to uh find when lost it will uh add uh a serious competitive advantage without making something too complex and too long to develop .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So but le let us see first the new requirement . So we don't have to {disfmarker} so this this uh is uh is um in the this is in the same direction as we were speaking so we don't have to make a very complex remote controls to access teletext and stuff like that {disfmarker}
User Interface: But teletext is just one button .
Project Manager: Yeah but then you have to {disfmarker} you have to define the buttons to surf amongst pages and stuff .
User Interface: You you just write the {disfmarker} write the numbers .
Project Manager: Yeah . So well {disfmarker}
User Interface: So will you add with the channel keys , right ?
Project Manager: Yeah . So anyway we don't have to include this feature because it's it's not used any more by users ,
User Interface: So . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: they prefer to s
User Interface: I am . I'm sure that uh it don't like but uh I don't see just one button .
Project Manager: Yeah . I dunno .
User Interface: So .
Project Manager: If i one button is still one more button . If {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if we want to make it very simple we have to reduce number of buttons compared to th to our competitors .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Well anyway I have this point . We can discuss . Also um {disfmarker} so as as I told before uh it would be better if it's only for the T_V_ um because we want to be quick on on the market . And then also we have to make very uh uh clear that this uh this remote control is is part of of our products and show our corporate uh logo and and colours on the {disfmarker} on the design as well so that uh they identify it as one of our product . So this is the the key point .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So before uh finishing we can uh define uh what would be the characteristic of the {disfmarker} o th of the control {disfmarker} of the remote control and which button do we need which function do we want etcetera .
User Interface: Capital .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So do you um so so from from the the Marketing Expert I think a key aspect is the easy to use aspect , it should be very simple and most button are never used
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: only ten per cent of the button are are used often so I think we have to do something very simple and I think we all agree on that point , no ?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Well if it is going to be just a T_V_ remote control it is going to be very simple .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah okay . So yeah the key point here is simple . Maybe . {vocalsound} So few buttons , channel , volume control and what el what function do you see in addition to that ?
User Interface: Well if it's going to be as simple as possible then just have the remote control , there is no other function that I can see
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: really .
Project Manager: Maybe switch T_V_ on and off {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: no you want to keep television on so that the advertising can {disfmarker} revenue can come back to us .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Or something .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Volume , maybe a mute button , and then on off button .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: And that's all ?
Industrial Designer: Uh I know that som you say that many people are doing plenty of {disfmarker} a lot of zapping .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I know tha I discovered that when I did a quick look , uh they do now som they do something which is quite nice now ,
User Interface: It's a memory , yeah .
Industrial Designer: you have a button , you you press it , and this is uh the previous channel which has come back .
Project Manager: Okay . Yeah this is cool . Maybe we can include that also . Previous previous channel button . So we have like channel button , the previous channel button , the volume button , plus a mute button , and uh just the the traditional on off button .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And uh and of course the channel changing buttons .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . I I talk about that , yeah ?
User Interface: How should they how should we implement that ? Because uh could be numerical only or could be also incremental .
Project Manager: Yeah . Incremental definitely because zapping you you switch them .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Let's say that we can do something like that . This is uh incremental , but once you press it for a long time , you go five by five .
Project Manager: We go faster ?
Industrial Designer: To go fa to go faster .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Mm . It's an interesting idea , that if you press it for a long time it does something else , in general . So if you you have your ten buttons for the {disfmarker} for the numeric the numerical buttons and you have {disfmarker} instead of having just one memory
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: you have if you press them for a long time {disfmarker} No . Doesn't work {vocalsound} does it .
Project Manager: Maybe we should have also a digit button {disfmarker}
User Interface: Maybe we should have a complete keyboard and just type console commands .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Change channel to eight .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Maybe we have also to have digits or only incremental .
User Interface: No . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I dunno bec because if you have the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well if it's useful like if if you want to change between three channels for example then you h you cannot {disfmarker} you cannot cannot work with just memory being incremental .
Project Manager: Uh . Yeah . Because you have your previous channel button if you have incremental only it's not uh it isn't worth it because the previous channel is eith either minus one or plus one .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So I think we need also digits .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Maybe we we can make very obvious the channel and volume button button and smaller button down there with the the digits .
User Interface: Yeah when you zap usually you will have to press the same button all the time {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Or we can do something like that .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: We can design the remote control to have access . You know some remote control have uh protection
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and so you you y
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Hey I just thought this thing {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker}
User Interface: there is a {disfmarker} I mean you know there is are some {gap} with a wheel like this . Instead of having the up down buttons for uh you can have the wheel .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , a kind of joystick .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Maybe we can have a wheel for incremental .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So have a wheel for incremental , have the digits uh on the lower side that can be closed so as you say protected ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} and uh yeah I think this is the basi
User Interface: On the lower side I think it {disfmarker} you have to turn it .
Project Manager: And do we {disfmarker} do we have a {disfmarker}
User Interface: No ? If we do that .
Industrial Designer: Or a {disfmarker} or a ball , yeah , not a a wheel but a ball , and you say uh to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No , a wheel is better .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I would say the wheel is better .
User Interface: Because of that {vocalsound}
Project Manager: What is the expert of uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: The channels change one by one .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: So you have to the user has to like to should feel the the the discrete sense a bit .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . That's a good idea .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Well also we have to decide uh so it should be lightening in the dark I think because most people lost their remote control .
Industrial Designer: 'S quite {disfmarker} it's quite easy we do that w with back light on the {disfmarker} on the wheel .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . Even if i L_E_D_ uh or a if if it's the L_C_D_ feature uh
Industrial Designer: A blue {disfmarker} a blue L_E_D_ and we sell that um .
Project Manager: Yeah ,
User Interface: whatever , yeah .
Project Manager: and do we put an L_C_D_ display ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Because it was important for young customers if you remember .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I think it's only put on if cou have multi function . If you do not multi function then there is no p point in having L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Just increase the cost .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} The user does not have an advantage really .
Project Manager: So no L_C_D_ ?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: And so no speech as well because it w it would delay too much the development process
User Interface: Well if it's going to delay yeah
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: but uh {vocalsound} it will be cool . It would . Because a user could say C_N_N_ for example and it would go C_N_N_ . Mm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah . That would be cool . But eight months is really long
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: and {disfmarker} Maybe we can just uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ten years {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . So um I I will uh {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} so I we will move to next meeting so in {disfmarker} after the lunch break uh here are the individual uh action uh you are required to do
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: but you will be uh recalled to the actions by uh email I think but you can take notes if you {disfmarker} if you want but well the instruction will be sent . So thank you for uh your suggestion
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: and I I will make a summary of that meeting that I will put in the shared folder you can't see {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay . Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and uh and then you will um you will be able to to see what has been uh has been said on on this meeting and and what has been decided . Uh maybe for next meeting uh send me your presentation before by email so that we can see them uh altogether . That would be easier .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: What is the folder that you put yours in ? And did it it did work ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} No .
Project Manager: No it did not work .
Marketing: No no .
Project Manager: She send it to me by email .
User Interface: Ah yeah . Mm .
Marketing: I dunno , I dunno it .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: So maybe this is better , to send it by email . Okay ?
User Interface: Okay what is your email ?
Project Manager: So yeah I I'm {disfmarker} it's in the first uh email so I'm participant one at AMI
User Interface: At participant one . Okay .
Project Manager: uh where is that , it's here . Participant one at AMI . {vocalsound} Okay . So see you after lunch break .
User Interface: Well during lunch break actually . {vocalsound}
Marketing: 'Kay thank you .
User Interface: So next time we should have a fight .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: How about uh {gap} management or something . Who happens to be your friend .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} | |
doc_173 | Grad A: Yeah , I think I got my mike on . OK . Let 's see .
Professor B: OK . Ami , do yours then we 'll open it and I think it 'll be enough .
Grad A: Mmm {disfmarker} Doesn't , uh {disfmarker} It should be the other way . Yeah , now it 's on .
PhD F: Right . OK .
Professor B: OK . So , we all switched on ?
Grad A: We are all switched on , yeah .
Professor B: Alright . Anyway . So , uh , before we get started with the , uh , technical part , I just want to review what I think is happening with the {disfmarker} our data collection .
PhD F: We are all switched on .
Professor B: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh , probably after today , {vocalsound} that shouldn't come up in this meeting . Th - this {disfmarker} this is s should be im it isn't {disfmarker} There 's another thing going on of gathering data , and that 's pretty much independent of this . But , uh , I just want to make sure we 're all together on this . What we think is gonna happen is that , uh , in parallel starting about now {vocalsound} we 're gonna get Fey {vocalsound} to , where you 're working with me and Robert , draft a note that we 're gonna send out to various CogSci c and other classes saying , " here 's an opportunity to be a subject . Contact Fey . " And then there 'll be a certain number of um , hours during the week which she will be available and we 'll bring in people . Uh , roughly how many , Robert ? We d Do we know ?
Grad C: Um , fifty was our {disfmarker} sort of our first {disfmarker}
Professor B: OK . So , we 're looking for a total of fifty people , not necessarily by any means all students but we 'll s we 'll start with {disfmarker} with that . In parallel with that , we 're gonna need to actually do the script . And , so , I guess there 's a plan to have a meeting Friday afternoon Uh , with {disfmarker} uh , Jane , and maybe Liz and whoever , on actually getting the script worked out . But what I 'd like to do , if it 's O K , {vocalsound} is to s to , as I say , start the recruiting in parallel and possibly start running subjects next week . The week after that 's Spring Break , and maybe we 'll look for them {disfmarker} some subjects next door
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor B: or {pause} i
Grad C: Yeah . Also , Fey will not be here during spring break .
Professor B: Oh , OK , then we won't do it .
Grad C: So .
Professor B: OK . So that 's easy . Um . So , is {disfmarker} Is that make sense to everybody ?
Grad C: Yeah . Also , um , F {vocalsound} both Fey and I will , um , {vocalsound} do something of which I may , eh {disfmarker} kindly ask you to {disfmarker} to do the same thing , which is we gonna check out our social infrastructures for possible subjects . Meaning , {vocalsound} um , kid children 's gymnastic classes , pre - school parents and so forth . They also sometimes have flexible schedules . So , if you happen to be sort of in a non - student social setting , and you know people who may be interested in being subjects {disfmarker} We also considered using the Berkeley High School and their teachers , maybe , and get them interested in stuff .
Professor B: That 's a good idea .
Grad C: And , um . So that 's as far as our brainstorming was concerned .
Professor B: Oh , yeah . The high school 's a great idea .
Grad C: So . But I {disfmarker} I will just make a first draft of the , uh , note , the " write - up " note , send it to you and Fey and then {disfmarker}
Professor B: And why don't you also copy Jane on it ?
Grad C: And , um , Are we {disfmarker} Have we concurred that , uh , these {disfmarker} these forms are sufficient for us , and necessary ?
Professor B: Uh , th I think they 're necessary . This {disfmarker} The permission form .
Grad C: Mmm .
Professor B: Uh , there has to be one ,
Grad C: Nuh . N .
Professor B: and I think we 're just gonna use it as it is , and {pause} Um
Grad C: N . You happy with that ?
Professor B: Well , yeah . There 's one tricky part about , um , they have the right um I The last paragraph {comment} " if you agree to participate you have the opportunity to have anything excised which you would prefer not to have included in the data set . " OK ? Now that , we had to be included for this other one which might have , uh , meetings , you know , about something .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: In this case , it doesn't really make sense . Um , so what I 'd like to do is also have our subjects sign a waiver saying " I don't want to see the final transcript " .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And if they don't {disfmarker} If they say " no , I 'm not willing to sign that " , then we 'll show them the final transcript . But , um .
Grad C: Yep . Makes sense .
Professor B: That , uh {disfmarker} yeah , so we might actually , um S i Jane may say that , " you know , you can't do this " , uh , " on the same form , we need a separate form . " But anyway . I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd like to , e e um , add an a little thi eh {disfmarker} a thing for them to initial , saying " nah , do I don't want to see the final transcript . "
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But other than that , that 's one 's been approved , this really is the same project , uh , rec you know . And so forth . So I think we just go with it .
Grad C: Yeah . Yeah . OK . So much for the data , except that with Munich everything is fine now . They 're gonna {vocalsound} transcribe . They 're also gonna translate the , uh , German data from the TV and cinema stuff for Andreas . So . They 're {disfmarker} they all seem to be happy now , {vocalsound} with that . So . w c sh should we move on to the technical sides ?
Professor B: Yep .
Grad C: Well I guess the good {disfmarker} good news of last week was the parser . So , um Bhaskara and I started working on the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the parser . Then Bhaskara went to class and once he came back , um , {vocalsound} it was finished . So . It , uh {disfmarker} I didn't measure it , but it was about an hour and ten minutes .
Grad D: Yep .
Grad C: And , um {disfmarker} and now it 's {disfmarker} We have a complete English parser that does everything the German parser does .
Grad D: Something like that .
Professor B: Which is {vocalsound} not a lot . But {disfmarker}
Grad D: That 's the , uh , point .
Grad C: The {disfmarker} uh , that 's not a lot .
Professor B: OK .
Grad D: Yes .
Professor B: Right .
Grad C: And um .
Grad E: What did you end up having to do ? I mean , wha Was there anything {pause} interesting about it at all ?
Grad C: Well , if you , eh {disfmarker}
Grad D: We 'll show you .
Professor B: Yeah , we can show us ,
Grad E: or are we gonna see that ?
Professor B: right ?
Grad C: Well , w w We d The first we did is we {disfmarker} we tried to {disfmarker} to do {disfmarker} change the {disfmarker} the " laufen " into " run " , {vocalsound} or " running " , {vocalsound} or " runs " .
Professor B: Yep .
Grad C: And we noticed that whatever we tried to do , it no effect .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: And we were puzzled .
Grad E: OK .
Grad C: And , uh , the reason was that the parser i c completely ignores the verb .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: So this sentence {disfmarker} sentence is {disfmarker} parses the p the same output ,
Grad E: Hmm . Interesting parser property .
Grad C: um , even if you leave out , um , all {disfmarker} all of this .
Grad E: I see . Yeah .
Grad C: So it 's basically feature film and TV .
Grad E: Today
Grad C: That 's what you need .
Grad E: OK .
Grad C: If {disfmarker} if you 'd add {disfmarker} add Today and Evening , it 'll add Time or not .
Grad E: And the {disfmarker} t and the time , right ?
Grad C: So it {disfmarker} i it does look at that .
Grad E: OK .
Grad C: But all the rest is p simply frosting on the cake , and it 's optional for that parser .
Grad E: True .
Professor B: So , you can sho You {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} Are {disfmarker} are you gonna show us the little templates ?
Grad C: And {disfmarker}
Grad E: S
Grad C: Yeah . We ar we can sh er {disfmarker} I can show you the templates . I {disfmarker} I also have it running here ,
Grad E: The former end g " Oh , I see . Uh - huh .
Grad C: so if I {vocalsound} do this now , um , {vocalsound} you can see that it parsed the wonderful English sentence , " Which films are on the cinema today {pause} evening ? " But , um .
Professor B: Well , that sounds {disfmarker}
Grad C: Uh do don't worry about it .
Professor B: No i
Grad C: It could be " this evening , which {disfmarker} which films are on the cinema " , or " running in the cinema , which {disfmarker} " uh , " today evening " , uh i " Is anything happening in the cinema this evening ? "
Grad E: OK . OK . Key words , e basically .
Professor B: Well
Grad C: Ge - elaborate , or , more or less , {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: Actually , it 's a little tricky , in that there 's some allowable German orders which aren't allowable English orders and so forth . And it is order - based . So it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} Isn't it ?
Grad C: No .
Grad D: No .
Professor B: Oh . So it {disfmarker} it doe I it {disfmarker} These {disfmarker} u these optional elements ,
Grad C: It is not {disfmarker}
Professor B: it 's {disfmarker} it 's actually a set , not a sequence ?
Grad C: Yeah . We were {disfmarker} I was afraid that , um {disfmarker}
Professor B: Oh !
Grad E: So it really is key word matching , basically .
Professor B: Really a se
Grad C: Um .
PhD F: e yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Oh , wow .
Grad C: Um , I mean , these sentences are just silly .
Grad E: Hmm .
Grad C: I mean , uh , d these were not the ones we {disfmarker} we actually did it . Um . What 's an idiomatic of phrasing this ? Which films are {pause} showing ?
Grad D: Are pl playing at the cinema ?
Grad C: playing ?
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad E: Tonight ?
Grad D: I changed that file , actually , where it 's on my account .
Grad E: This {disfmarker} this evening ?
PhD F: Actually , you would say , " which films are on tonight ? "
Grad D: You want to get it ? Or {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} di was it easy to get it ?
Grad C: Um . I have no net here .
Grad D: Oh , OK .
Professor B: Do I ?
Grad C: OK . So . Wonderful parse , same thing . Um .
Professor B: Right .
Grad C: Except that we d w we don't have this , uh , time information here now , which is , um {disfmarker} Oh . This {disfmarker} are the reserve . Anyways . {vocalsound} So . Um . These are the {disfmarker} sort of the ten different sentence types that the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the parser was able to do . And it still is , now in English .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: And , um {disfmarker} Sorry . And , um you have already to make it a little bit more elaborate , right ?
Grad D: Yeah , I mean I changed those sentences to make it , uh , more , uh , idiomatic . And , of course , you can have i many variations in those sentences , they will still parse fine . So , in a sense it 's pretty broad .
Professor B: OK .
Grad C: OK . So , if you want to look at the templates , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} they 're conveniently located in a file , " template " . Um , and this is what I had to do . I had to change , @ @ {comment} " Spielfilm " to " film " , uh , " Film " to " movie " , cinem " Kino " to " cinema " {disfmarker} to " today " {disfmarker} heu " heute " to " today " ,
Grad E: Huh .
Grad C: evening {disfmarker} " Abend " to " evening "
Professor B: Capitalized as well
Grad A: Hmm .
Grad C: And , um .
Professor B: Y i
Grad D: One thing I was wondering , was , those functions there , are those things that modify the M - three - L basically ?
Grad C: Yep .
Grad D: OK .
Grad C: And that 's {disfmarker} that 's the next step ,
Professor B: p
Grad C: but we 'll get to that in a second .
Professor B: Oh .
Grad C: And so this means , um , " this " and " see " are not optional . " Want I like " is all maybe in there , but may also not be in there .
Professor B: So {disfmarker} so , the point is , if it says " this " and " see " , it also will work in " see " and " this " ?
Grad E: S
Professor B: In the other order ?
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor B: with those two key words ?
Grad C: Should we try it ?
Professor B: " This is the one I want to see " or whatever .
Grad C: OK . " Action watch " ,
Grad D: Hmm .
Grad C: whatever . Nothing was specialfi specified . except that it has some references to audio - visual media here .
Grad D: AV medium .
Grad C: Where it gets that from {disfmarker}
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad C: It 's correct , but I don't know where it gets it from .
Grad D: " See " .
Grad C: Oh , " see " . Yeah . Yeah . Yep . OK .
Grad D: I mean it 's sort of {disfmarker}
Grad C: And " see this " {comment} is exactly the same thing .
Professor B: OK , so it is set - based . Alright .
Grad D: One thing I was wondering was , {vocalsound} those percentage signs , right ? So , I mean , why do we even have them ?
Grad C: Yep .
Grad D: Because {disfmarker} if you didn't have them {disfmarker}
Grad C: Uh , I 'll tell you why . Because it gives a {disfmarker} you a score .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: And the value of the score is , v I assume , I guess , the more of these optional things that are actually in there , the higher the r score {vocalsound} it is .
Grad D: Oh . OK . So that 's the main purpose . Alright .
Grad E: It 's a match .
PhD F: Right .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: OK .
Grad C: So we {disfmarker} we shouldn't belittle it too much . It 's doing something , some things , and it 's very flexible . I 've just tried to
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: be nice .
PhD F: Right .
Professor B: No , no . Fine .
Grad E: Right {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah , yeah , yeah , flexible it is .
PhD F: But {disfmarker}
Grad C: OK . {vocalsound} Um , let 's hope that the generation will not be more difficult , even though the generator is a little bit more complex . Uh but we 'll {disfmarker} Mmm , that means we may need two hours and twenty minutes rather than an hour ten minutes ,
Professor B: Alright .
Grad C: I hope .
Grad D: Right .
Grad C: And the next thing I would like to be able to do , and it seems like this would not be too difficult either , is {vocalsound} to say , " OK let 's now pretend we actually wanted to not only change the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the mapping of {disfmarker} of , uh , words to the M - three - L but we also wanted to change {disfmarker} add a new sentence type and and make up some {disfmarker} some new M - three - L {disfmarker} s "
Professor B: Yep . So That 'd be great . It would be a good exercise to just see {vocalsound} whether one can get that to run .
Grad C: See th Mm - hmm . {vocalsound} Yep . And , um ,
Grad D: So , that 's {disfmarker}
Grad C: that 's {disfmarker} shouldn't be too tough .
Grad D: Fine , yeah . Yeah , so where are those {disfmarker} those functions " Action " , " Goodbye " , and so on , right ? Are they actually , um , {vocalsound} Are they going to be called ? Um , are they present in the code for the parser ?
Grad C: Yeah . I think what it does , it i i it does something sort of fancy . It loads um {disfmarker} It has these style sheets and also the , um , schemata . So what it probably does , is it takes the , uh , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} Is this where it is ? This is already the XML stuff ? This is where it takes its own , um , syntax , and converts it somehow . Um . Where is the uh {disfmarker}
Grad D: What are you looking for ?
Grad C: Um , where it actually produces the {disfmarker} the XML out of the , uh , parsed {pause} stuff .
Grad D: Oh , OK .
Grad C: No , this is not it . Uh . I can't find it now . You mean , where the {disfmarker} where the act how the action " Goodbye " maps into something {disfmarker}
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad A: Yeah , where are those constructors defined ?
Grad D: Oh .
Grad C: Nope .
Grad D: No , that 's not it .
Grad C: Yeah . This is sort of what happens . This is what you would need to {disfmarker} to change {disfmarker} to get the , uh , XML changed . So when it encounts encounters " Day " , {vocalsound} it will , uh , activate those h classes in the {disfmarker} in the XML stuff But , um {disfmarker} I saw those actions {disfmarker} uh , the " Goodbye " stuff somewhere . Hmm , hmm , hmm , hmm , hmm .
Grad A: Grep for it ?
Grad C: Yeah . Let 's do that . Oh .
Grad D: Mmm . M - three - L dot DTD ?
Grad C: Yep .
Grad D: That 's just a {pause} specification for the XML format .
Grad C: Yep . Well , we 'll find that out . So whatever {disfmarker} n this does {disfmarker} I mean this is , basically , looks l to me like a function call , right ?
Professor B: Hmm ? Oh , yeah .
Grad C: And , um {disfmarker} So , whenever it {disfmarker} it encounters " Goodbye " , which we can make it do in a second , here
Grad A: That function automatically generates an initialized XML structure ?
Grad C: I
Grad D: I think each of those functions act on the current XML structure , and change it in some way , for example , by adding a {disfmarker} a l a field to it , or something .
Professor B: y Yeah . They also seem to affect state ,
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: cause some of them {disfmarker} there were other actions uh , that {disfmarker} that s seemed to step {disfmarker} state variables somewhere ,
Grad D: Right .
Professor B: like the n s " Discourse Status Confirm " . OK . So that 's going to be a call on the discourse
Grad C: Yep .
Professor B: and {vocalsound} confirm that it 's {disfmarker}
Grad C: W we Mm - hmm
Grad D: Oh , you mean that 's not going to actually modify the tree ,
Professor B: I think that 's right .
Grad C: e
Grad D: but it 's going to change the event .
Professor B: I think it 's actually {disfmarker} That looks like it 's state modification .
Grad D: Oh . Oh .
Grad C: e mmm Um , well i There is a feature called " Discourse - Status " ,
Grad D: When there 's a feature .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad C: And so whenever I just say , " Write " , it will {disfmarker} it will put this in here .
Professor B: Oh , so it always just {disfmarker} Is it {disfmarker} So it {disfmarker} Well , go back , then , cuz it may be that all those th things , while they look like function calls , are just a way of adding exactly that to the XML .
Grad C: h Yep .
Professor B: Uh - huh ! I 'm not {disfmarker} I 'm not sure .
Grad C: So , this {disfmarker}
Professor B: e I 'm not sure {disfmarker} e that {disfmarker}
Grad C: Um {disfmarker} well , we {disfmarker} we 'll see , when we say , let 's test something , " Goodbye " , causes it to c to create basically an " Action Goodbye - End - Action " .
Professor B: Right .
Grad C: Which is a means of telling the system to shut down .
Professor B: Right .
Grad C: Now , if we know that " Write " produces a " Feature Discourse - Status Confirm Discourse - Status " . So if I now say " Write , Goodbye , " it should do that . It sho it creates this ,
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Right .
Grad C: " Confirm Goodbye " .
Professor B: Yep .
Grad D: Right there . But there is some kind of function call , because how does it know to put Goodbye in Content , but , uh , Confirm in Features ?
Grad C: Oh . It d it {disfmarker} n That 's because {disfmarker}
Grad D: So So , it 's not just that it 's adding that field .
Professor B: Right .
Grad D: It 's
Professor B: Absolutely . Good point .
Grad D: OK .
Professor B: It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} It 's under what sub - type you 're doing it . Yeah .
Grad C: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Grad A: It 's mystery functions .
Grad C: Well , sometimes it m Sometimes , i
Grad D: Well , they 're defined somewhere , presumably .
Professor B: Yeah , each is {disfmarker} S so that 's funny .
Grad C: When it {disfmarker}
Professor B: You bury the s the state in the function Alright .
Grad C: it {disfmarker}
Grad A: Well , it just automatically initializes things that are common , right ?
Professor B: Uh
Grad A: So it 's just a shorthand .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad C: For example {disfmarker} Oh , this is German . Sorry . e So , now , this , it cannot do anymore . Nothing comes out of here .
Grad A: A " not a number " is a value . Awesome .
Grad C: So , it doesn't speak German anymore , but it does speak English . And there is , here , a reference {disfmarker} So , this tells us that whatever is {disfmarker} has the ID " zero " is referenced here {disfmarker} by @ @ {comment} the restriction seed and this is exa " I want {disfmarker} " What was the sentence ?
Professor B: " I want two seats here . "
Grad C: " need two seats here . " Nuh . " And where is it playing ? " There should also be a reference to something , maybe . Our d This is re um Mmm . Here , we change {disfmarker} and so , we {disfmarker} Here we add something to the Discourse - Status , that the user wants to change something that was sort of done before And , uh {disfmarker} and that , whatever is being changed has something to do with the cinema .
Grad A: So then , whatever takes this M - three - L is what actually changes the state , not the {disfmarker} Yeah , OK .
Professor B: No , right , the Discourse Maintainer ,
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor B: yeah . I see . And it {disfmarker} and it runs around looking for Discourse Status tags , and doing whatever it does with them . And other people ignore those tags . Alright . So , yeah . I definitely think it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It 's worth the exercise of trying to actually add something that isn't there .
Grad C: Hmm ?
Professor B: Uh Disc
Grad C: Sort of get a complete understanding of the whole thing .
Professor B: Yeah , a kid understanding what 's going on . Then the next thing we talked about is actually , {vocalsound} um , figuring out how to add our own tags , and stuff like that .
Grad C: OK . Point number two . I got the , uh , M - three - L for the routes today . Uh , so I got some more . This is sort of the uh , {vocalsound} um , Hmm . Interesting . It 's just going up , it 's not going back down . So , this is {disfmarker} um , what I got today is {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the new {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} M - three - L for um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} the Maps ,
Professor B: Yep .
Grad C: uh , and with some examples {disfmarker} So , this is the XML and this is sort of what it will look like later on , even though it {disfmarker} you can't see it on {disfmarker} on this resolution . And this is what it {disfmarker} sort of is the {disfmarker} the structure of Map requests , um also not very interesting , and here is the more interesting stuff for us , is the routes , route elements , and , again , as we thought it 's really simple . This is sort of the , uh , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} parameters . We have @ @ {comment} simple " from objects " and " to objects " and so forth , points of interest along the way {disfmarker} And , um , I asked them whether or not we could , um {disfmarker} First of all , I was little bit {disfmarker} It seemed to me that this m way of doing it is sort of a stack a step backwards from the way we 've done it before . t It seems to me that some notions were missing .
Professor B: S
Grad C: So these are {disfmarker} these are {disfmarker}
Professor B: So these are {disfmarker} these are your friends back at EML .
Grad C: Yep . Who are doing this .
Professor B: So this is not a complicated negotiation . There 's {disfmarker} there 's not seven committees , or anything , right ?
Grad C: No . No , this is very straightforward .
Professor B: Great . So this is just trying to {disfmarker} It 's a design thing , not a political thing . Once we 've {disfmarker} eh {disfmarker} We can just sort of agree on what oughta be done .
Grad C: Yeah .
Professor B: Good .
Grad C: Exactly . And , um {disfmarker} And , uh {disfmarker} However , the , uh {disfmarker} e So that you understand , it is really simple . Uh {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you have a route , and you cut it up in different pieces . And every {disfmarker} every element of that e r r f of that {disfmarker} Every segment we call a " route element " . And so , from A to B we cut up in three different steps , and every step has a " from object " where you start , a " to object " where y where {pause} you sort of end , and some points of interest along the way . What w I was sort of missing here , and uh , maybe it was just me being too stupid , is , {vocalsound} I didn't sort of get the {disfmarker} the notion of the global goal of the whole route . Really , s was not straightforward visibly for me . And some other stuff . And I {vocalsound} suggested that they should n be {disfmarker} k uh , kind enough to do s two things for us , is one , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Also allocating , uh , some tags for our Action Schema Enter - Vista - Approach , and {disfmarker} And also , um , since you had suggested that {disfmarker} that , um , we figure out if we ever , for a demo reason , wanted to shortcut directly to the g GIS and the Planner , of how we can do it . Now , what 's the state of the art of getting to entrances , um , what 's the syntax for that , how get getting to {vocalsound} vista points and calculating those on the spot . And the Approach mode , anyhow , is the default . That 's all they do it these days . Wherever you 'll find a route planner it n does nothing but get to the closest point where the street network is {vocalsound} at minimal distance to the geometric center .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: So .
Professor B: So , well , let {disfmarker} Now , this is important . Let , uh {disfmarker} I want a a Again , outside of m almost managerial point , um {disfmarker} You 're in the midst of this , so you know better . But it seems to me it 's probably a good idea to li uh {disfmarker} minimize the number of uh , change requests we make of them . So it seemed to me , what we ought to do is get our story together . OK ? And think about it some , internally , before asking them to make changes .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Oh . Does this {disfmarker} does this make sense to you guys ? It {disfmarker} I mean you 're {disfmarker} you 're doing the {disfmarker} the interaction but it seemed to me that {vocalsound} what we ought to do is come up with a {disfmarker} uh , something where you , um {disfmarker} And I {disfmarker} I don't know who 's mok working most closely on it . Probably Johno . OK . Uh , take what they have , send it to everybody saying " this is what they have , this is what we think we should add " , OK ? and then have a d a {disfmarker} an iteration within our group saying " Hmm , well {disfmarker} " OK ? And get our best idea of what we should add .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And then go back to them . Is i or , I don't know does this make sense to you ? Or
Grad C: Yeah . {vocalsound} Especially if we want {disfmarker} Sort of , what I {disfmarker} my feeling was eh we {disfmarker} we sort of reserved something that has a r eh an OK label . That 's {disfmarker} th that was my th first sort of step .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: I w No matter how we want to call it , {vocalsound} this is sort of our playground .
Professor B: Right .
Grad C: And if we get something in there that is a structure elaborate and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and complex enough to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to maybe enable a whole simulation , one of these days , that would be {disfmarker} u the {disfmarker} the perfect goal .
Professor B: Right . That 's right . So . So , Yeah . The problem isn't the short ra range optimization . It 's the sort of {disfmarker} o one or two year kind of thing . OK . What are the thl class of things we think we might try to do in a year or two ? How {disfmarker} how would we try to characterize those and what do we want to request now {vocalsound} that 's leave enough space to do all that stuff ?
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Right .
Grad C: Yep .
Professor B: And that re that requires some thought .
Grad C: Yep .
Professor B: And {disfmarker} so that sounds like a great thing to do {vocalsound} as the priority item um , as soon as we can do it .
Grad C: Yep .
Professor B: So y so you guys will {vocalsound} send to the rest of us um {pause} {vocalsound} a version of um , this , and {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} uh , description {disfmarker}
Grad A: With sugge yeah , suggested improvements and {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well b Yeah . So , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Not everyone uh , reads German , so if you 'd um
Grad A: Mmm .
Professor B: tu uh , tur change the description to , uh , English
Grad A: OK .
Professor B: and , um , Then {disfmarker} then , yeah . Then , with some sug s suggestions about where {disfmarker} where do we go from here ?
Grad A: OK .
Professor B: Uh , this {disfmarker} and this , of course , was just the {vocalsound} {vocalsound} action end . Uh , at some point we 're going to have to worry about the language end . But for the moment just {vocalsound} uh , t for this class of {disfmarker} of things , we might want to try to encompass . And {disfmarker}
Grad A: Then the scope of this is beyond {pause} Approach and Vis - or Vista . Yeah , yeah .
Professor B: Oh , yeah , yeah yeah yeah . This is {disfmarker} this is everything that {disfmarker} that , um , {pause} {vocalsound} you know , um {pause} we might want to do in the next couple years .
Grad A: Yeah , yeah . So what would {disfmarker}
Grad C: Hmm ?
Grad A: OK .
Professor B: We don't {disfmarker} I mean , that 's an issue . We don't know what , entirely .
Grad A: Uh , yeah . but I 'm just {disfmarker} But the {disfmarker} Yeah , OK . So I just {disfmarker} this XML stuff here just has to do with Source - Path - Goal type stuff , in terms of traveling through Heidelberg .
Grad C: Hmm .
Grad A: Or travel , specifically .
Professor B: Right .
Grad A: So , but this O Is the domain greater than that ?
Professor B: No .
Grad A: OK .
Professor B: I think {disfmarker} I think the i the idea is {pause} that {disfmarker} Oh . It 's beyond Source - Path - Goal , but I think we don't need to get beyond it @ @ {comment} {disfmarker} tourists in Heidelberg .
Grad A: OK .
Professor B: It seems to me we can get {vocalsound} all the complexity we want in actions and in language without going outside of tourists in Heidelberg . OK ? But you know , i depending on what people are interested in , one could have , {vocalsound} uh , tours , one could have {vocalsound} um , explanations of why something is {disfmarker} is , you know , why {disfmarker} why was this done , or {disfmarker} I mean , no {disfmarker} there 's no end to the complexity you can build into the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , what a tourist in Heidelberg might ask .
Grad A: Mmm .
Professor B: So , at least {disfmarker} unless somebody else wants t to suggest otherwise I think {vocalsound} the general domain we don't have t to uh , broaden . That is , tourists in Heidelberg . And if there 's something somebody comes up with that can't be done that way , then , sure . W we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll look at that , but {vocalsound} uh I 'd be s I I 'd be surprised at {disfmarker} if there 's any {disfmarker} {vocalsound} important issue that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} And , um {disfmarker} I mean if {disfmarker} if you want to {pause} uh , push us into reference problems , that would be great .
PhD F: OK .
Professor B: OK , so this is {disfmarker} his specialty is {disfmarker} reference ,
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and {disfmarker} you know , what {disfmarker} what are these things referring to ? Not only {vocalsound} anaphora , but , uh , more generally the , uh {disfmarker} this whole issue of , uh , referring expressions , and , what is it that they 're actually dealing with in the world ?
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And , again , this is li in the databa this is also pretty well formed because there is an ontology , and the database , and stuff . So it isn't like , {vocalsound} um , you know , the Evening Star or stuff like that .
PhD F: Right .
Professor B: I i it {disfmarker} All the entities do have concrete reference . Although th the {vocalsound} To get at them from a language may not be trivial .
PhD F: Right .
Professor B: There aren't really deep mysteries about um , what w what things the system knows about .
PhD F: Right . Right . And you have both proper names and descriptions
Professor B: All those things .
PhD F: and y and you can ask for it .
Professor B: Yeah . You have proper names , and descriptions .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Right .
Professor B: And a l and a lot {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and anaphora , and pronouns ,
Grad C: Nuh .
PhD F: OK . Right .
Professor B: and {pause} all those things .
PhD F: Right .
Grad C: Now , we hav the {disfmarker} the whole {disfmarker} Unfortunately , the whole database is , uh , {vocalsound} in German . We have just commissioned someone to translate some bits of it , IE the e the shortest k the {disfmarker} the more general descriptions of all the objects and , um , persons and events . So , it 's a relational database with persons , events , {vocalsound} and , um , objects . And it 's {disfmarker} it 's quite , um , {vocalsound} there . But did y I {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I think there will be great because the reference problem really is not trivial , even if you have such a g well - defined world .
Professor B: He knows .
Grad C: Ah - he you are not , uh , throwing uh , uh , carrying owls to Athens .
Grad A: Could you give me an example of a reference problem ? so {disfmarker} so l I can make it more concrete ?
Grad C: Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} How do I get to the Powder - Tower ? We sort of t think that our bit in this problem is interesting , but , just to get from Powder - Tower to an object I ID in a database is also not really trivial .
PhD F: Or {disfmarker} or if you take something even more scary , um , " how do I get to the third building after the Tower ? the Ple - Powder - Tower ? "
Grad A: Mmm .
PhD F: Uh , you need some mechanism for
Professor B: Yeah . Or , you know , the church across from City Hall , or {disfmarker}
Grad A: Or the re the restaurant where they wear lederhosen ?
Grad C: Or the
PhD F: Right .
Grad A: Or is that {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah , that would be fine .
Grad A: OK .
PhD F: Right .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad C: O or {disfmarker} or tower , or this tower , or that building , or {disfmarker}
PhD F: Right .
Grad E: Uniquely .
Grad C: hmm ?
Grad A: OK . Trying to {disfmarker}
Professor B: Or you can say " how {disfmarker} " you know , " how do I get back ? "
Grad A: Yeah , yeah .
Professor B: OK . And , again , it 's just a question of which of these things , uh , people want to {vocalsound} dive into . What , uh , I think I 'm gonna try to do , and I guess , pwww ! let 's say that by the end of spring break , I 'll try to come up with some {vocalsound} general story about , um , construction grammar , and what constructions we 'd use and how all this might fit together . There 's this whole framework problem that I 'm feeling really uncomfortable about . And I haven't had a chance to {vocalsound} think about it seriously . But I {disfmarker} I want to {disfmarker} I want to do that early , rather than late . And you and I will probably have to talk about this some .
Grad C: u u u u That 's what strikes me , that we sort of {disfmarker} the de g uh , small {disfmarker} Something , uh , maybe we should address one of these days , is to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That most of the work people actually always do is look at some statements , and {disfmarker} and analyze those . Whether it 's abstracts or newspapers and stuff like this .
Professor B: Hmm .
Grad C: But the whole {disfmarker} i is it {disfmarker} is it really relevant that we are dealing mostly with , sort of , questions ?
Professor B: Oh , yeah ?
Grad C: Uh , you know {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well , I mean yeah , I d
Grad C: And this is {disfmarker} It seems to me that we should maybe at least spend a session or {disfmarker} or brainstorm a little bit about whether that l this is special case in that sense .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Um , I don't know . You know {disfmarker} Did we ever find m metaphorical use in {disfmarker} in questions in {disfmarker} in that sense , really ?
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad D:
Professor B: You will .
Grad C: And how soon ,
Professor B: Oh , yeah .
Grad C: I don't know .
Professor B: I mean , uh , we could take all the standard metaphor examples and make question versions of them . OK .
Grad C: " Who got kicked out of France ? "
PhD F: Muh
Professor B: Yeah , or , you know . " Wh - why is he {disfmarker} why is he pushing for promotion ? "
Grad C: Nuh .
PhD F: Right .
Professor B: or , " who 's pushing proof "
Grad C: Nuh .
Professor B: er , just pick {disfmarker} pick any of them and just {vocalsound} do the {disfmarker} eh {disfmarker}
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So I don't {disfmarker} I don't think , {vocalsound} uh , it 's at all difficult {disfmarker} Uh , to convert them to question forms that really exist and people say all the time , um {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} sort of {disfmarker} we don't know how to handle them , too . Right ? I mean , it 's {disfmarker} I d It {disfmarker} We don't know how to handle the declarative forms , @ @ {comment} really , and , then , the interrogative forms , ah - oh . Uh . Yeah .
Grad D: Ooo !
Professor B: Nancy , it looked like you were s
Grad E: Oh . it 's just that {disfmarker} that the goals are g very different to cases {disfmarker} So we had this problem last year when we first thought about this domain , actually , was that {vocalsound} most of the things we talked about are our story understanding .
Professor B: Right .
Grad E: Uh , we 're gonna have a short discourse and {vocalsound} the person talking is trying to , I don't know , give you a statement and tell you something . And here , {vocalsound} it 's th
Grad C: Help you create a mental model , blah - blah - blah . Yeah .
Grad E: Yea - eh {disfmarker} y Yeah , I guess so .
Professor B: Yes .
Grad E: And then here , y you are j uh , the person is getting information and they or may not be following some larger plan , {vocalsound} you know , that we have to recognize or , you know , infer . And th th the {disfmarker} their discourse patterns probably {nonvocalsound} don't follo follow quite as many {vocalsound} logical connec
Professor B: Right . No , I think that 's one of things that 's interesting , is {disfmarker} is in this sort of over - arching story we {disfmarker} we worked it out for th as you say , this {disfmarker} the storytelling scenario .
Grad E: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And I think it 's really worth thinking through {vocalsound} {vocalsound} what it looks like .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: What is the simspec mean , et cetera .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . M Right . Cuz for a while we were thinking , " well , how can we change the , {vocalsound} um , data to sort of illicit tha {vocalsound} illicit , um , actions that are more like what we are used to ? " But obviously we would rather , you know , try to figure out what 's {disfmarker} what 's , you know {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well , I don't know . I mean , maybe {disfmarker} maybe that 's what we 'll do is {disfmarker} is s u e We can do anything we want with it . I mean , once we have fulfilled these requirements ,
Grad E: Yep . Mmm {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: OK , and the one for next uh , summer is just half done and then the other half is this , um , " generation thing " which we think isn't much different .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So once that 's done , then all the rest of it is , uh , sort of , you know , what we want to do for the research . And we can {disfmarker} w we can do all sorts of things that don't fit into their framework at all . Th - there 's no reason why we 're c we 're constrained to do that .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: If we can use all the , uh , execution engines , then we can , {vocalsound} you know , really {nonvocalsound} try things that would be too {disfmarker} too much pain to do ourselves .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But there 's no obligation on any of this . So , if we want to turn it into u understan standing stories about Heidelberg , we can do that . I mean , that would just be a t a um {disfmarker}
Grad C: Or , as a matter of fact , we need {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and if we if we ' r eh {disfmarker} take a ten year perspective , we need to do that , because w e w a Assuming we have this , um , we we ta in that case we actually do have these wonderful stories , and historical anecdotes ,
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad C: and knights jumping out of windows ,
Grad E: Mmm .
Grad C: and - and - and {disfmarker} {comment} {comment} tons of stuff . So , th the database is huge , and if we want to answer a question on that , we actually have to go one step before that , and understand that . In order to e do sensible information extraction .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: You might , yeah .
Grad C: And so , um , this has been a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a Deep Map research issue that was {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is part of the unresolved , and to - do 's , and something for the future , is {vocalsound} how can we sort of run our our text , our content , through a machine {vocalsound} that will enable us , later , to retrieve or answer e questions more sensibly ?
PhD F: Mwa Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . Mmm .
Professor B: Right . Anyway . S Who 's going ?
PhD F: So , uh {disfmarker} So , uh , I was just going to ask , um , {vocalsound} so , what is the {disfmarker} the basic thing that {disfmarker} that you are , um , obligated to do , um , uh , by the summer before w uh y c we can move {disfmarker}
Professor B: Ah ! OK . So {disfmarker} eh {disfmarker} Yeah . So , what happened is , there 's this , eh , uh {disfmarker} Robert was describing the {disfmarker} There 's two packages there 's a , uh , quote parser , there 's a particular piece {vocalsound} of this big system , which , in German , uh , takes these t sentence templates and produces XML structures . And one of our jobs was to make the English equivalent of that .
PhD F: Right .
Professor B: That , these guys did in a {disfmarker} in a day .
PhD F: Right . Right .
Professor B: The other thing is , at the other end , roughly at the same level , there 's something that takes , uh , X M L structures , produces an output XML structure which is instructions for the generator .
PhD F: Right .
Professor B: OK ? And then there 's a language generator , and then after that a s a synthesizer that goes from an XML structure to , uh , language generation , to actual specifications for a synthesizer . Eh , but again , there 's one module in which there 's one piece {vocalsound} that we have to convert to English .
PhD F: Right . Right . Got it .
Professor B: Is that {disfmarker} OK . And that {disfmarker} But as I say , this is {disfmarker} all along was viewed as a kind of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a m a minor thing , necessary , but {disfmarker} but not {disfmarker}
PhD F: Right .
Professor B: OK ?
PhD F: Right .
Professor B: And much more interesting is the fact that , {vocalsound} as part of doing this , we {disfmarker} we are , you know , inheriting this system that does all sort of these other {vocalsound} things .
PhD F: That 's great ! Right .
Professor B: Not precisely what we want , and that 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that 's wh where it {disfmarker} it gets difficult . And I {disfmarker} I don't pretend to understand yet what I think we really ought to do .
Grad C: OK . So , e enough of that , but I , uh , um , mmm , the e sort of , Johno and I will take up that responsibility , and , um , get a first draft of that . Now , we have um just , I think two more short things .
Professor B: OK .
Grad C: Um , y you guys sort of started fighting , uh , on the Bayes - net " Noisy - OR " front ?
Grad D: Hmm . Yeah , I thought I should , um , talk a little bit about that , because that might be a good , uh , sort of architecture to have , in general for , uh , problems with , {vocalsound} you know , multiple inputs to a node .
Professor B: Good ! OK . Good . And what 's the other one ? so that {disfmarker} just we know what the d agenda is ?
Grad C: Um , the Wu paper , I think maybe {disfmarker}
Professor B: Oh , yeah . I 've got a couple new Wu papers as well . Uh , so I {disfmarker} I 've been in contact with Wu , so , probably let 's put that off till I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} till I understand better , {vocalsound} uh , what he 's doing . It 's just a little embarrassing cause all this was in his thesis and I was on his thesis committee , and , so , {vocalsound} I r really knew this at one time .
PhD F: Ugh .
Professor B: But , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} It 's not only uh Is {disfmarker} Part of what I haven't figured out yet is {disfmarker} is how all this goes together . So I 'll dig up some more stuff from Dekai . And {disfmarker} so why don't we just do the , uh {disfmarker}
Grad D: OK . So {disfmarker} should I {disfmarker} Is there a white board here that I can use ?
Professor B: Yeah . You could {disfmarker}
Grad D: Uh {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor B: squealing sound ?
Grad D: Or shall I just use this ?
Professor B: It 's probably just as easy . I
PhD F: Yeah .
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad A: You can put the microphone in your pocket .
Grad D: Hey !
Grad A: I was envying you and your pocket cause I don't have one .
Grad E: It was a quick one , huh ?
Professor B: That 's why they invented " pocket T 's " .
Grad A: exactly
Grad E: They have clips !
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad E: Huh .
Grad D: So , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Recall that , uh , we want to have this kind of structure in our Bayes - nets . Namely , that , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} You have these nodes that have several bands , right ? So {disfmarker} Does I mean , they sort of {disfmarker} the typical example is that , um , these are all a bunch of cues for something , and this is a certain effect that we 'd like to conclude . So , uh {disfmarker} Like , let 's just look at the case when , um , this is actually the {disfmarker} the final action , right ? So this is like , uh , {vocalsound} you know , touch ,
Grad C: Y
Grad D: or {disfmarker}
Grad C: E - EVA
Grad D: Sorry . Uh
Grad C:
Grad D: Yeah , E - {vocalsound} EVA , right ?
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad D: Enter , V View , Approach , right ?
PhD F: W what was this ? It {disfmarker} i i i ehhh , {comment} i ehhh .
Professor B: Wri - write it out for for {disfmarker}
Grad D: So , this is {disfmarker} Yeah . Enter ,
PhD F: I mean {disfmarker}
Grad D: View , Approach .
PhD F: OK . Right .
Grad D: Right . So , I mean , we 'd like to {disfmarker} take all these various cues , right ?
PhD F: Like the army .
Grad D: So this one might be , say , uh {disfmarker}
Grad E: New terminology ?
PhD F: Yeah .
Grad C: Hmm ?
Grad D: Well , let me pick a random one
Grad E: I haven't heard that before .
Grad D: and say , uh {disfmarker} I don't know , it could be , like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} This isn't the way it really is , but let me say {disfmarker} that , suppose someone mentioned , uh , admission fees Ah , it takes too long . Try {disfmarker} let me just say " Landmark " . If the thing is a landmark , you know , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} then there 's another thing that says if {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} if it 's closed or not , at the moment . Alright , so you have nodes . Right ? And the , uh , problem that we were having was that , you know , given N - nodes , there 's " two to the N " Given N - nodes , and furthermore , the fact that there 's three things here , we need to specify " three times " , uh , " two to the N " probabilities . Right ? That 's assuming these are all binary , which f they may not be . For example , they could be " time of day " , in which case we could , uh , say , you know , " Morning , afternoon , evening , night " . So , this could be more So , it 's a lot , anyway . And , that 's a lot of probabilities to put here , which is kind of a pain . So {pause} Noisy - ORs are a way to , uh , {vocalsound} sort of deal with this . Um Where should I put this ? So , the idea is that , um , {vocalsound} Let 's call these , uh , C - one , C - two , C - three , and C - four , and E , for Cause and Effect , I guess . The idea is to have these intermediate nodes . Right . Well , actually , the idea , first of all , is that each of these things has a {disfmarker} quote - unquote distinguished state , which means that this is {vocalsound} the state in which we don't really know anything about it . So {disfmarker} right ? So , for example , if we don't really know {vocalsound} if the thing is a landmark or not , Or , i if that just doesn't seem relevant , then that would be th sort of the Disting - the Distinguish state . It 's a really , you know , {vocalsound} if there is something for the person talking about the admission fee , you know , if they didn't talk about it , that would be the Distinguish state .
Grad C: S so , this is a fanciful way of saying " default " ?
Grad D: So {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah .
Grad C: OK .
Grad D: That 's just what they {disfmarker} the word they used in that paper .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: So , the idea is that , um , {vocalsound} you have these intermediate nodes , right ? E - one , E - two , E - three and E - four ?
Professor B: So , this is the Heckerman paper you 're working with ? Good .
Grad D: Yeah . So {pause} The idea is that , each of these EI {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} represents what this would be {disfmarker} if all the other ones were in the distinguish state . Right ? So , for example , suppose that the person {disfmarker} I mean , suppose the thing that they talked about is a landmark . But none of the other {disfmarker} {vocalsound} sort of cues really apply . Then , {vocalsound} this would be {disfmarker} W The {vocalsound} this would just represent the probability distribution of this , assuming that this cue is turned on and the other ones just didn't apply ? So , you know , if it is a landmark , and no none of the other things really ap applicable , then {disfmarker} this would represent the probability distribution . So maybe in this case {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Maybe we just t k Maybe we decide that , if the thing 's a landmark and we don't know anything else , then we 're gonna conclude that , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} They want to view it with probability , you know , point four . They want to enter it with probability , uh {disfmarker} with probability point five and they want to approach it probability point one , say {disfmarker} Right ? So we come up with these l little tables for each of those OK . And the final thing is that , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} this is a deterministic function of these , so we don't need to specify any probabilities . We just have to , um , say what function this is , right ? So we can let this be , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} G of E - one comma E - two . E - three , E - four . Right ? and our example G would be , um , {vocalsound} a majority vote ? Right ?
Professor B: Well . OK , so th so the important point {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} W not what the G function is . The important point is {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} There is a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a general kind of idea of shortcutting the full CPT . Th - c the full conditional probability table {disfmarker} with some function . OK ? Which y w you choose appropriately for each case . So , depending on {vocalsound} what your situation is , there are different functions which are most appropriate . And {disfmarker} So I gave {disfmarker} eh {disfmarker} Bhaskara a copy of this , eh {disfmarker} sort of " ninety - two " {comment} paper . D and you got one , Robert .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I don't know who else has seen it .
Grad D: There 's {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} yeah . it 's Heckerman and Breese .
Professor B: It 's short . It 's short .
Grad D: Yeah .
Professor B: So , I u w Um , yo uh {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} Have you read it yet ?
Grad D: Uh , you can {disfmarker} Yeah , you should take a look at it , I guess .
Grad A: OK
Professor B: OK , so you should take a look . Nancy , I 'm sure you read it at some point in life .
Grad E: I {disfmarker} yeah . I {disfmarker} I think so , yeah .
Professor B: OK . And {disfmarker} so , you other guys can decide how interested {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah , @ @ .
Professor B: Anyway . So the paper isn't th isn't real hard .
PhD F: OK .
Professor B: And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} One of the questions just come at Bhaskara is , " How much of this does JavaBayes support ? "
Grad D: Yeah , it 's a good question . Um {pause} {vocalsound} {nonvocalsound} The {disfmarker} so what we want , is basically JavaBayes to support deterministic , uh , functions .
Professor B: Right .
Grad D: And , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} In a sense it sup we can make it supported by , um , {vocalsound} manually , uh , entering , you know , probabilities that are one and zeros , right ?
Professor B: Right . So the little handout that {disfmarker} The little thing that I sent {disfmarker} I sent a message saying , uh , here is a way to take {disfmarker} One thing you could do , which is kind of s in a way , stupid , is take this deterministic function , and use it to build the CPT . So , if Ba - JavaBayes won't do it for you ,
Grad C: Mmm .
Professor B: that you can convert all that into what the CPT would be . Um {disfmarker} and , what I sent out about a week ago , was an idea of how to do that , for , um , evidence combination . So one of {disfmarker} one function that you could use as your " G function " is an e e Evidence - Combining . So you just take {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} uh , if each of th if each of the ones has its own little table like that , {vocalsound} then you could take the , uh , strength of each of those , times its little table , and you 'd add up the total evidence for " V " , " E " , and " A " .
Grad D: Mmm . I don't think you can do this , because {disfmarker} {vocalsound} G is a function from {pause} that {vocalsound} to that .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yep . Right .
Grad D: Right ? So there 's no numbers . There 's just {disfmarker} quadruplets of {disfmarker} well , N - duplets of , uh , E Vs .
Professor B: I i i No , no {disfmarker} But I 'm saying is {disfmarker} There {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} There is a w I mean , if y if {disfmarker} if you decide what 's {disfmarker} what is appropriate , is probablistic evidence combination , you can write a function that does it . It 's a pui it 's actually one of the examples he 's got in there . But , anyway , s skipping {disfmarker} skipping the question of exactly which functions {disfmarker} now is it clear that you might like to be able to shortcut the whole conditional probability table .
Grad C: I mean , in some {disfmarker} it seems very plausible in some sense , where we will be likely to not be {disfmarker} observe some of the stuff . Cuz we don't have the a access to the information .
Grad D: Oops , {comment} sorry .
Professor B: Right . That 's one of the problems , is , W Is {disfmarker} is , Where would th Where would it all come from ?
Grad C: Yeah . So .
Grad D: Is {disfmarker} Oh , right . W would not be ab able to observe
Grad E: Mmm .
Grad D: What ?
Grad C: I if it 's a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a discar Discourse Initial Phrase , we will have nothing in the discourse history . So , if {disfmarker} if we ever want to wonder what was mention
Grad D: Oh {disfmarker} Oh . A are you saying that we 'll not be able to observe certain nodes ? That 's fine . That is sort of orthogonal thing .
Professor B: Yeah , so there 's {disfmarker} there 's two separate things , Robert . The f the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the Bayes - nets in general are quite good at saying , " if you have no current information about this variable just take the prior for that . " OK ? Th - that 's what they 're real good at . So , if you don't have any information about the discourse , you just use your priors of {disfmarker} of whatever {disfmarker} eh the {disfmarker} discourse {disfmarker} uh , eh , basically whatever w it 's {disfmarker} Probabilistically , whatever it would be . And it 's {disfmarker} it 's sort of not a great estimate ,
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: but {disfmarker} it 's the best one you have , and , so forth . So that , they 're good at . But the other problem is , how do you fill in all these numbers ? And I think that 's the one he was getting at .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: Yeah . So , specifically in this case you have to {disfmarker} f have this many numbers ,
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad D: whereas in this case you just have to have three for this , three for this , three for this . Right ?
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: So you have to have just three N ? So , this is much smaller than that .
Grad A: Asymptotically .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Well , pretty quickly .
Grad D: Yeah . Right .
Grad A: U yeah , yeah .
Professor B: I mean {disfmarker}
Grad E: So , you don't need da data enough to cover {disfmarker} uh , nearly as much stuff .
Grad D: I don't know .
Grad A: So , really , i What a {disfmarker} A Noisy - OR seems to kind of {pause} " neural - net - acize " these Bayes - nets ?
Professor B: Eh {disfmarker} well to some No , no . So , " Noisy - OR " is a funny way of referring to this , because {vocalsound} the Noisy - OR is only one instance .
Grad D: Yeah . This isn't a Noisy - OR anymore .
Professor B: That one actually isn't a Noisy - OR . So we 'll have to think of {vocalsound} of a way t t
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad D: it 's a Noisy - arg - max or a Noisy - whatever .
Professor B: Yeah , whatever . Yeah . So {disfmarker} Eh {disfmarker} {comment} Um
Grad A: Well , my point was more that we just {disfmarker} eh {disfmarker} With the neural net , right , eh , things come in , you have a function that combines them and {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} Tha - that 's true . It is a is also more neural - net - like , although {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh , it isn't necessarily sum {disfmarker} uh , s you know , sum of weights or anything like that .
Grad A: Right .
Professor B: I mean i You could have , uh , like the Noisy - OR function , really is one that 's essentially says , uh , take the max .
Grad D: Well , the " OR " .
Professor B: Same .
Grad D: Right . I guess you 're right . Yeah .
Professor B: Uh But anyway . So {disfmarker} And , I thi I think that 's the standard way people get around the {disfmarker} uh There are a couple other ones . There are ways of breaking this up into s to {disfmarker} to subnets and stuff like that . But , um The I think we definitely {disfmarker} I think it 's a great idea tha to {disfmarker} to pursue that .
Grad D: Yep . So
Grad C: Wha - still sort of leaves one question . It {disfmarker} I mean you {disfmarker} you can always uh {disfmarker} see easily that {disfmarker} that I 'm not grasping everything correctly , but {vocalsound} what seemed attractive to me in im uh in the last discussion we had , was {vocalsound} that we find out a means of {disfmarker} of getting these point four , point five , point one , of C - four , not because , you know , A is a Landmark or not , but we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we label this whatever object type , and if it 's a garden , it 's point three , point four , point two . If it 's a castle , it 's point eight , point one , point one . If it 's , {vocalsound} uh , a town hall , it 's point two , point three , point five .
Professor B: Right .
Grad C: And so forth . And we don't want to write this down {disfmarker} necessarily every time for something but , uh {disfmarker} let 's see .
Grad D: It 'll be students {disfmarker} Where else would it be stored ? That 's the question .
Grad C: Well , in the beginning , we 'll write up a flat file .
Professor B: Oh .
Grad C: We know we have twenty object types
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad C: and we 'll write it down in a flat file .
Professor B: No . So , i is Well , let me say something , guys , cuz there 's not {disfmarker} There 's a pretty point about this we might as well get in right now . Which is {disfmarker} The hierarchy that s comes with the ontology is just what you want for this .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh , if you know about it {disfmarker} let 's say , a particular town hall {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that , it 's one that is a monument , {vocalsound} then , that would be stored there . If you don't , you look up the hierarchy , Eh {disfmarker} so , you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you may or {disfmarker} So , then you 'd have this little vector of , um , you know , Approach Mode or EVA Mode . Let 's {disfmarker} OK , so we have {vocalsound} the EVA vector for {disfmarker} for various kinds of landmarks . If you know it for a specific landmark you put it there . If you don't , you just go up the hierarchy to the first place you find one .
Grad D: OK . So , is the idea to put it in the ontology ?
Professor B: Absolutely .
Grad D: OK .
Professor B: Uh , or , link to {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but in any case {disfmarker} i View it logically as being in the ontology . It 's part of what you know about {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} an object , {vocalsound} is its EVA vector .
Grad D: OK .
Professor B: And , if yo As I say , if you know about a specific object , you put it there .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: This is part of what Dekai was doing . So , when we get to Wu , The - e We 'll see w what he says about that .
Grad D: Right .
Professor B: And , then if you {disfmarker} If it isn't there , it 's higher , and if you don't know anything except that it 's a b it 's {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} building , then up at the highest thing , you have the pr what amounts to a prior . If you don't know anything else about a building , {vocalsound} uh , you just take whatever your crude approximation is up at that level ,
Grad D: Right .
Professor B: which might be equal , or whatever it is .
Grad D: Yeah .
Professor B: So , that 's a very pretty relationship between these local vectors and the ontology . And it seems to me the obvious thing to do , unless {vocalsound} we find a reason to do something different .
Grad D: Yeah .
Professor B: Does this make sense to you ?
Grad D: So {disfmarker}
Professor B: Bhask - ?
Grad D: Yeah . So , we are {disfmarker} but we {disfmarker} we 're not doing the ontology , so we have to get to whoever is doing the {disfmarker} u ultimately ,
Professor B: Indeed . So , that 's another thing we 're gonna need to do , is {disfmarker} is , to , either {disfmarker}
Grad D: we have to get them to {disfmarker}
Professor B: We 're gonna need some way to either get a p tag in the ontology , or add fields , or {disfmarker} {comment} {comment} {vocalsound} some way to associate {disfmarker} Or , w It may be that all we can do is , um , some of our own hash tables that it {disfmarker} Th - the {disfmarker} th you know , there 's always a way to do that . It 's a just a question of {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah , hash on object name to , you know , uh , the probabilities or whatever .
Professor B: i th Yeah . e Right . And , so , i uh {disfmarker}
Grad C: But it 's , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well , it strikes me as a What For If we get the mechanism , that will be sort of the wonderful part . And then , {vocalsound} how to make it work is {disfmarker} is the second part , in the sense that {disfmarker} I mean , m the guy who was doing the ontology {disfmarker} eh , eh , s ap apologized that i it will take him another through {disfmarker} two to three days because they 're having really trouble getting the upper level straight , and right now . The reason is , {vocalsound} given the craw bet uh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the projects that all carry their own taxonomy and , on all history , {vocalsound} they 're really trying to build one top level ontology ft that covers all the EML projects , and that 's , uh , uh , sort of a tough cookie , a little bit tougher than they {vocalsound} figured . I could have told them s so .
Professor B: Right . Yeah .
Grad C: Uh . But , nevertheless , it 's going to be there by n by , uh , next Monday and I will show you what 's {disfmarker} what some examples {vocalsound} from that for towers , and stuff . And , um , what I don't think is ever going to be in the ontology , is sort of , you know , the likelihood of , eh , people entering r town halls , and looking at town halls , and approaching town halls , especially since we are b dealing with a case - based , not an instance - based ontology . So , there will be nothing on {disfmarker} on that town hall , or on the Berkeley town hall , or on the {vocalsound} Heidelberg town hall , it 'll just be information on town halls .
Professor B: Well , they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} How ar What are they gonna do with instances ?
Grad C: But what {disfmarker}
Professor B: I mean , you {disfmarker} y
Grad C: Well , that 's {disfmarker} Hhh . That 's {disfmarker} that 's al different question . I mean , th the {disfmarker} first , they had to make a design question , {vocalsound} " do we take ontologies that have instances ? or just one that does not , that just has the types ? "
Professor B: OK .
Grad C: And , so , since the d decision was on types , on a d simply type - based , {vocalsound} we now have to hook it up to instances . I mean this is
Professor B: But what i What is SmartKom gonna do about that ?
Grad C: one {disfmarker}
Professor B: Cuz , they have instances all the time .
Grad C: Yeah , but the ontology is really not a SmartKom thing , in {disfmarker} in and of itself . That 's more something that {vocalsound} I kicked loose in {disfmarker} in EML . So it 's a completely EML thing .
Professor B: But {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} SmartKom 's gonna need an ontology .
Grad C: Yes , u a w a lot of people are aware of that .
Professor B: I understand , {vocalsound} but is anybody doing anything about it ?
Grad C: Um {disfmarker}
Professor B: OK . It 's a political problem . We won't worry about it .
Grad C: No , but {disfmarker} th the r eh {disfmarker} I th I still think that there is enough information in there . For example , whether {disfmarker} OK . So , th it will know about the twenty object types there are in the world . Let 's assume there are only twenty object types in this world . And it will know if any of those have institutional meanings . So , in a sense , " I " used as Institutions for some s in some sense or the other . Which makes them {disfmarker} enterable . Right ? In a sense .
Professor B: Yeah . Anyway . So we may have to {disfmarker}
Grad C: You know .
Professor B: This is with the whole thing ,
Grad C: Yep .
Professor B: we may have to build another data stru
Grad C: Yep .
Professor B: Conceptually , we know what should be done . When we see what people have done , it may turn out that the easiest thing to do {vocalsound} is to build a {disfmarker} a separate thing that {disfmarker} that just pools i i Like , i i it {disfmarker} it may be , that , the {disfmarker} the instance {disfmarker} w That we have to build our own instance , uh , things , that , with their types ,
Grad D: Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} Right , we can just assume {disfmarker}
Professor B: and then it goes off to the ontology once you have its type . So we build a little data structure And so what we would do in that case , is , in our instance gadget have {vocalsound} our E V And if we d there isn't one we 'd get the type and then have the E V As for the type . So we 'd have our own little , {vocalsound} uh , EVA tree . And then , for other , uh , vectors that we need .
Grad D: Yeah . Right .
Professor B: So , we 'd have our own little {vocalsound} things so that whenever we needed one , we 'd just use the ontology to get the type ,
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and then would hash or whatever we do to say , " ah !
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: If it 's that type of thing , and we want its EVA vector , pppt - pppt ! {comment} it 's that . " So , I I think we can handle that . And then {disfmarker} But , the combination functions , and whether we can put those in Java Bayes , and all that sort of stuff , is , uh {disfmarker} is the bigger deal .
Grad D: Yeah .
Professor B: I think that 's where we have to get technically clever .
Grad A: We could just steal the classes in JavaBayes and then interface to them with our own code .
Grad D: Um {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well , I me ye {nonvocalsound} eh , yeah , the {disfmarker}
Grad D: That requires understanding the classes in JavaBayes , I guess . @ @ .
Professor B: Yeah , I mean , it 's , uh , e e e e e cute . I mean , you 've been around enough to {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} Just ?
Grad A: Well , it depends on {disfmarker}
Professor B: I mean , there 's this huge package which {disfmarker} which may or may not be consistent and {disfmarker} you know . But , yeah , we could look at it .
Grad A: Well , I was j OK . Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah . It 's b It {disfmarker} It 's an inter sort of a kind of a {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} The thing is , it 's kind of an interpreter and i i it expects its data structures to be in a given form , and if you say , " hey , we 're gonna {vocalsound} make a different kind of data structure to stick in there {disfmarker} "
Grad A: Well , no , but that just means there 's a protocol , right ? That you could {disfmarker}
Professor B: It may or may not . I don't know . That 's the question is " to what extent does it allow us to put in these G functions ? " And I don't know .
Grad A: Well , no , but {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} What I uh the {disfmarker} So you could have four different Bayes - nets that you 're running , and then run your own {disfmarker} write your own function that would take the output of those four , and make your own " G function " , is what I was saying .
Professor B: Yeah , that 's fine if it 's {disfmarker} if it comes only at the end . But suppose you want it embedded ?
Grad A: Well , then you 'd have to break all of your Bayes - nets into smaller Bayes - nets , with all the {disfmarker}
Professor B: Oh , that {disfmarker} Yeah , that 's a truly horrible way to do d it . One would hope {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah , but I 'm just {disfmarker}
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , you bet . But , at that point you may say , " hey , Java Bayes isn't the only package in town . Let 's see if there 's another package that 's , eh , more civilized about this . "
Grad D:
Professor B: Now , Srini is worth talking to on this ,
Grad D: Mmm .
Professor B: cuz he said that he actually did hack some combining functions into But he doesn't remember {disfmarker} at least when I talked to him , he didn't remember {vocalsound} whether it was an e an easy thing , a natural thing , or whether he had to do some violence to it to make it work .
Grad D: Ah !
Professor B: Uh . But he did do it .
Grad D: Yeah . I don't see why the , uh , combining f functions have to be directly hacked into I mean , they 're used to create tables so we can just make our own little functions that create tables in XML .
Professor B: Well , I say that 's one way to do it , is {disfmarker} is to just convert it int into a {disfmarker} into a C P T that you zip {disfmarker} It 's blown up , and is a {disfmarker} it 's , uh {disfmarker} it 's huge , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it doesn't require any data fitting or complication .
Grad D: Mm - hmm . Yeah . I don't think {disfmarker} I mean , the fact that it blown u blows up is a huge issue in the sense that {disfmarker} I mean , OK . So say it blows up , right ? So there 's , like , the you know , ten , f ten , fifteen , uh , things . It 's gonna be like , two to the {disfmarker} that , which isn't so bad .
Professor B: I I understand . I 'm just saying tha that w That was wi that was my note . The little note I sent said that . It said , " Here 's the way you 'd take the logical f G function and turn it into a CPT . "
Grad D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I mean that {disfmarker} the Max - the Evidence - Combining function . So we could do that . And maybe that 's what we 'll do . But , um don't know . So , I will , e {vocalsound} e before next week , uh , @ @ {comment} p push {disfmarker} push some more on {disfmarker} on this stuff that Dekai Wu did , and try to understand it . Uh , you 'll make a couple of more copies of the Heckerman paper to give to people ?
Grad D: p Sure .
PhD F: Yeah , I {disfmarker} I would like a copy ,
Professor B: OK .
Grad D: OK .
PhD F: y y yeah .
Professor B: And , um
PhD F: OK .
Professor B: I think {disfmarker}
Grad C: OK . And I I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll think s through this , uh , {vocalsound} eh {disfmarker} getting EVA vectors dynamically out of ontologies one more time because I s I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm not quite sure whether we all think of the same thing or not , here .
Professor B: Well , you and I should talk about it .
Grad C: Yeah , uh - huh . OK .
Professor B: Alright , great ! And , Robert , thank you for {vocalsound} coming in under {disfmarker} He {disfmarker} he 's been sick , Robert .
Grad C: Und .
Grad A: I was thinking maybe we should just cough into the microphone and see if they can't {disfmarker} th see if they can handle it .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad D: Yep .
Grad E: Sure .
Grad C: Um {disfmarker} is this , uh {disfmarker} | |
doc_174 | Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , welcome to the second meeting of this uh design group . Um {vocalsound} I'll briefly go through the uh notes of the of the last meeting uh just done in in note form and I haven't attributed anything to individuals , because we're working strictly as a team here and uh n nobody's working equally ,
User Interface: Sorry .
Project Manager: so uh . Um we we s we saw that the the problems with existing remote controls were the uh b a boring shape and boring colour . Um and and we s we saw that the um what we needed to do was to to make sure the device um controls several items , that switching was easy , that you shouldn't need to point the thing at uh anything in particular , um that it need to be contoured to make it interesting , that the keys might be concave , simply because that hasn't been done before that we know of . Um should have interchangeable fascias so people can personalise it , um illuminated so that people can see it in dark rooms . Um and that people might want it as as {disfmarker} in addition to their existing remote controls . Um {vocalsound} and that it sh it should just always work , whenever you uh um mm uh use it . And that it shouldn't be too small , mm that it it gets lost . Um . {gap} Now uh uh I'll shortly ask for for three three presentations . Uh before I do that , however , I will go through some new project requirements that um {disfmarker} the the management have placed on us and uh will be challenging in terms of what we discussed at the first meeting . Um the uh the ma the management has had it's own thoughts on this and uh the they don't necessarily agree with with what we uh we thought . Um and and then we'll {disfmarker} as a result of that we will then talk through the the functions that we see the the device um actually b carrying out , and we have uh forty minutes to do this in and I uh {disfmarker} Anyway . Okay . Now , the n the new requirements are um the the management team see that um teletext is no longer of any importance given the uh the rise of the internet . Um and and they want it only to cover televisions . Um now , what is not q quite clear from their directive is whether they mean th they don't want it to cover teletext or whether they don't want it to cover , you know , videos , D_V_D_s , um satellite boxes , which uh {disfmarker} I mean we saw as being fundamental to the uh to the exercise . The um the actual wording of the directive is that it should cover television only . Um and on that basis um I I think we we need to bear that in mind , um but possibly uh keep at the backs of our minds that the reality that people even when they uh no longer {disfmarker} they don't look at teletext anymore , they certainly do look at other things . Um {vocalsound} the device has to incorporate the company logo and colours . Um the the logo uh being at b the bottom of the screen there , the the the two R_s in grey against uh a yellow background . Um now this doesn't {vocalsound} necessarily mean that we have to give up some of our ideas about making it attractive to the t to the market . But uh do do introduce some some constraints as to how we might do that . Um it also has to be simple , which to some extent goes along w with the first one , and that {disfmarker} we've already said that it must be simple 'cause that's what people want anyway . Um but they also want it to be simple to get it to the market quickly , which um mm {vocalsound} uh is is is their choice , but uh um we we need to talk that through . Um okay , so uh after the meeting it'll be summarised and uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: um notes sent out and uh etcetera . Okay , so {vocalsound} we'll first of all mm have individual reports from everybody . Um again I {vocalsound} {disfmarker} there is no order of precedence here um so I I I'll leave it up to you to {disfmarker} who who who thinks they would like to go go first ?
Marketing: Uh I don't mind . {gap}
Project Manager: P fine .
Marketing: Uh can I steal the cable ?
Project Manager: Oh sorry , you can indeed .
Marketing: Cheers .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I got a {disfmarker} how do I start there ?
Project Manager: Oh , if you click on the um uh the one that that looks like a projection screen , no the one to the right of that . That one .
Marketing: That one . Cool . Well these are functionality requirements from the {disfmarker} our our guys down in the the research lab . Took hundred people and covered all the aspects of what um is needed by people and what they want to see . Um {vocalsound} everything kinda from functionality and how individual functions are {disfmarker} how mu how how often they're used and how much their necessary and stuff . And general opinions about current current remotes . See that , as we kinda noticed , seventy five percent of people find their remote controls ugly . So some kind of a new style should be incorporated that's less ugly {vocalsound} . Uh along with um looking less ugly , if it looks better , eighty percent of people said they'd spend more money on it . Which is a a plus for us , if we can make it look better , it'd be uh more cost effective and we can put the price up . Current remote controls do not match the operating behaviour of the user . I can empl I kinda take that to mean as um {vocalsound} they they don't uh {disfmarker} they , yeah , they only use {disfmarker} they only work for the television or yeah like as in in my flat I've got six remote controls for a stereo system , a digital box , a D_V_D_ player , a video player and T_V_ . If it was uh {disfmarker} I mean th my behaviour is to use multiple things at the same time and multiple remotes aren't really matched well to my behaviour . {vocalsound} Uh again , seventy five percent is {disfmarker} seventy five percent of users say they zap a lot . I took to mean that they just {disfmarker} they use it a lot , they use it regularly rather than standing up and manually change channels or volume {gap} . {vocalsound} And uh yeah , uh I think the big issue is fifty percent users only use ten percent of the buttons , 'cause uh wh if we got a remote that like {disfmarker} well we'll have some buttons taken off by the lack of teletext , but uh oh and we're going to see uh on the {disfmarker} uh that some of the functions like audio settings aren't h hardly ever used and used very {disfmarker} aren't considered relevant by the user . So I think maybe fewer buttons , which also make the design look sleeker , I dunno . Uh um yeah and uh frustrations of like people losing remote control .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: I dunno maybe some kind of system of you press a button on the T_V_ or maybe that's b it would have to incorporate {gap} , but like some kind of system where you can f use something else to find the remote control . Maybe like it'll beep or something . And um , yep , the uh time taken to learn new remote controls is {disfmarker} Uh don't want to make it too complicated , easy to use for uh new {disfmarker} like first time users and stuff . And uh repetitive strain injury , I suppose we should make it more comfortable and make ma possibly even use {disfmarker} have to make it , yeah , fewer buttons , like I was saying about the whole mice {disfmarker} the mouse idea of it feels more comfortable .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Maybe don't even have to hold it as such .
Project Manager: Gosh , must be some telly addicts out there if they get R_S_I_ from their television remote , is all I can say .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But uh yeah . It also asked um if we would {disfmarker} if people would pay more for speech recognition
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap}
Marketing: and younger people say they would . And uh there was another section on our {disfmarker} on the report for uh L_C_D_ displays , but the data wasn't there , so . I don't actually know what the results for that were ,
Project Manager: Mm . Right . Mm .
Marketing: so . {vocalsound} May be incrementally emitting , but yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , I must say that um the uh {disfmarker} I c can't remember what {vocalsound} um f you know phone service I was using the other day , but that had sorta speech recognition which worked uh remarkably well , so that is indeed a uh um a thought
Marketing: And uh {vocalsound} it would cut out the R_S_I_ as well if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and it it cuts out uh {disfmarker} I was was gonna say , you can't get a lot of R_S_I_ ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: j just get jaw ache . Okay , sorry . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , um {disfmarker} oh yeah , so possibly the speech recognition is possibly something could add into the design . Oh , I've got some other things I couldn't fit onto this presentation . Um . You see this okay ? Almost {disfmarker} no ? It's {disfmarker} sorry it's a bit {gap} . I'll read out to you . Uh functionality , uh like people's opinions on functionality , the relevance to the remote and how often they're used . So um like the power . Using the using the d swi the power switch to switch on T_V_ is a high relevance of nine , but it's not frequently used . You see what I mean ?
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Whereas channel selection , which is very high relevance
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: is used the most . So m we can maybe even start to cut down on {disfmarker} or I was possibly even thinking of a design that maybe some of the buttons are hidden from everyday use . Maybe like uh a folding ledge or something . So that we can maybe go into the channel settings and the audio settings ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: which are low relevance
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm . I mean {disfmarker}
Marketing: and rarely used . And keep the v volume selection and channel selection very easily {disfmarker}
User Interface: It could be {disfmarker} oh uh I was just gonna say uh maybe like the flip phones that they use ?
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Have you seen the new mo mobile phones
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: that flip out and they have the like texting , and then the numbers on one side ,
Marketing: Oh yeah .
User Interface: so
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: you could have the most {vocalsound} used buttons on top and flip it out or something .
Project Manager: Hmm , hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah , like the one that like slides back
Project Manager: Uh . Should we actually bite the bullet here ?
Marketing: and the buttons are concealed underneath .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: If people really don't use those buttons to any extent at all um {vocalsound} remove them altogether .
Marketing: Just remove them completely ?
Project Manager: We we could actually have we could actually have a remote control with um {disfmarker}
User Interface: That might be the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I wonder whether we could get the remote control with no buttons at all if we went for voice recognition , given that um the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um now the the age structure we were looking at {disfmarker} um I mean w we had usage by age structure , what we didn't have was what proportion of people using remotes were in those particular age groups . Now do we know whether they {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh yeah .
Project Manager: Forty {disfmarker} no sorry {disfmarker} for forty five to fifty five age group , uh to put myself right in the middle of it , um u use remote controls to a great extent .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes we {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um no this is for {disfmarker} pay more for speech recognition .
Project Manager: That would 've speech recogn right . So , we're looking at {disfmarker} um well again , we don't know the relative proportion {disfmarker} the relative numbers in the age groups .
Marketing: Yeah , that's true .
Project Manager: If we wanted something different , truly different , then the buttonless remote control w would be it .
Industrial Designer: P Well the only problem I can think of with that is if you've got a lot of people that don't wanna be bothered learning how to use new rem remote controls . If you just kind of take away everything that they're used to knowing , that's gonna be quite a change .
Project Manager: But if you just lift it up and say , channel one or B_B_C_ {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It might {disfmarker}
Marketing: Or even {disfmarker} I mean you could even just have it left on .
User Interface: Maybe i
Marketing: You could just put it down once on top your T_V_ and never have to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , have a big kind of like the satellite box or the cable box
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and have it just go on the T_V_ and then it doesn't matter where in the room you are ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: you won't lose it .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: It c well it {disfmarker} I can I can see technical problems with that in terms of the , you know , the sound from the television ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: because if somebody actually on the television says uh uh , you know , I_T_V_ and you're watching B_B_C_ then then it might um change itself ,
Marketing: {vocalsound} B_B_C_ one . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so it probably needs to be um {disfmarker} possibly actually need a button on it
User Interface: Yeah , that's true .
Project Manager: just to activate it .
Marketing: Oh yeah .
Project Manager: Or or something just to identify that you've lifted it up and it's use . And and then just say , oh I don't know , a thought and and then {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: uh I mean that that would certainly be uh truly different . {vocalsound} Um 'cause uh you know audio settings , nought point eight percent . I mean if they weren't there , {vocalsound} would people miss them ?
Marketing: Mm-mm .
Industrial Designer: But look at the importance of them . The volume settings .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Relevance of two out of ten ,
Project Manager: Vol volume ,
Marketing: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: yes um
Industrial Designer: They're not used often
Project Manager: th {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but they are quite important when they're used .
Project Manager: w we need to s identify things that {vocalsound} people actually need
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: and and it's a function of frequency and relevance . And um I would say ignoring ig ignoring power for the moment , um the channel and volume
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: and th w w given given that we've been told to ignore teletext . Uh channel and volume are the only ones that
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} uh would appear to be essential .
Marketing: Stand out .
Project Manager: Um . So {disfmarker} if we can design something that that looks interesting , know , or looks different , um incorporates the the logo and and the colours and um we can still have our interchangeable fascias even if it's {gap} the yellow and grey , um and uh I dunno , buttons or or buttons as an option .
Marketing: Uh I just had a thought actually , sorry to interrupt .
Project Manager: Do , please .
Marketing: Uh you were saying about um it could {disfmarker} technical problems of like uh someone on the television saying a channel number and it changed {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: we could maybe have like an activation word .
Project Manager: You cer certainly could .
Marketing: 'Cause I've seen I've seen this used on computers before , where you just {disfmarker} you address the remote ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Depe uh i depends whether um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: you address the computer , and then give it a command .
Project Manager: if we want to make this so simple that anybody can walk into the room and lift it up and say
Marketing: Oh I see . Oh yeah , I see .
Project Manager: B_B_C_ one . Um okay , I mean you could print {disfmarker} actually print it on the uh
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm , yeah .
Project Manager: device itself . Um .
Marketing: I mean I'm just thinking of the point of view of peop you could still like lose this remote .
Project Manager: S th this I th {vocalsound} that's always gonna be a problem I think .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Um and I I I s so I suppose one um {disfmarker} could make it so desirable that if people lose it they immediately go out and buy another one .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Anyway , sorry , carry on . Do you want to just carry on with {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh no
Project Manager: or {disfmarker}
Marketing: I I interrupted you ,
Project Manager: no no , no uh b I was in the middle of in the middle of your report there . {vocalsound}
Marketing: sorry {vocalsound} . Oh okay . Um well , I was just kinda wrapping up there . Yeah ,
Project Manager: Mm okay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I was thinking um , yeah , maybe such things are relevant . We could make things much more f I think the the eighty percent of people would spend more on uh a remote uh that looks better , combined with uh decrease the {disfmarker} or take out the limited functio functions that we don't really use much . {gap} alright take out teletext , but as for channel settings and stuff it might it might um turn people somewhe peop some people that want the whole functionality away . But , since {disfmarker} if we're marketing a more kind of fashionable approach then it'd {disfmarker} it would be fashion and fashion over practicality .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . S s we could {disfmarker} we could make it dual function {gap} voice recognition and {gap} still have buttons on it um
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh , we could , yeah . We c yeah ,
Project Manager: 'cause we're {disfmarker}
Marketing: we could even have it as like a {disfmarker} yeah the buttons control this and the voice functions control the f things that you would do all the time , so .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Certainly could . Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: So uh yeah , if we could uh {disfmarker} power on and channel selection and and volume selection , wouldn't have to really {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} The {disfmarker} I mean the the advantage of doing away the buttons altogether is it makes the thing cheaper .
Marketing: Yeah and probably it would look better as well .
Project Manager: No , it cou certainly opens up the possibility for making it uh , you know , visually very distinctive .
Marketing: Yeah . yeah .
Project Manager: Um 'cause you know , it does not have to be a oblong box .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Lined with numbered buttons and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm , yeah . Okay , who {disfmarker} sorry , have you have you finished there Andy ?
Marketing: Uh yeah , yeah , that's everything .
Project Manager: Yep , yep . Um {vocalsound} given that we've already had a extensive discussion uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay well , I can do mine .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: Do you want the cable ?
User Interface: Yeah , let's see if I can make this work . Um .
Industrial Designer: Oh , you have to hit like function and F_ something .
User Interface: Oh .
Marketing: F_ eight .
Industrial Designer: F_ eight .
User Interface: Is it doing {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Dunno .
Marketing: Uh , give it about twenty seconds , or so .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Ah , there we go . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah , it's going .
User Interface: Oh okay . {vocalsound} Okay , so this is just about the technical functions .
Project Manager: Alright .
User Interface: So the method , I looked online for examples of other similar products and then just kind of was trying to brainstorm some possible design ideas and um identify what the necessary things are , what people are {disfmarker} what you really wanna have a remote control do . Um and then there are two different kinds that I found . There's a user centred one and an engineering centred one which I will have pictures of and then we kinda have to decide which one this should be .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} So these are the two different ones . This one um {disfmarker} this is the user centred , it has uh quite a few mm uh um fewer buttons
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and then this is the engineering centred , which has a lot more buttons ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and probably this is one that people complain about , about having too many buttons that you don't use . So basically , what a remote control is is you {disfmarker} it's to send messages to the television set , you know , turn on , off , switch the channels and the volume and things such as that . And so for this product it's gonna be television only , and then it has to have the uh logos for the company and the colours . And so , for my personal preferences , I think this one is easier to use and has quite a {disfmarker} you know , fewer buttons . Um we want something that sends messages easily to the television and I was kind of wondering about this example that they have . It looks kind of narrow at the top , and I was thinking maybe if it were wider at the top ,
Project Manager: Mm , yeah .
User Interface: then that would be easier . Um {vocalsound} and so we have to decide what's gonna make our product different . E the unique style , maybe have it light up so it's visible in the dark , um the changeable face-plates , and the lighting up and visible I was {disfmarker} when we were talking about havi losing it , maybe to have a button on the television that you press and it {disfmarker} maybe if it makes a noise or lights up or something like that , so it's easier to find if someone has hidden under the couch or something like that . So that's my presentation . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , can I um {disfmarker} I'm actually gonna use the um {disfmarker} it's gonna cause great technical problems over here . I'm actually gonna use the {disfmarker}
User Interface: F they probably clip to you .
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah , they might be movable .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah , they're all {disfmarker} they're not connected to anything on the table , you just leave 'em on and walk around with 'em . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes , rather than the uh the the traditional {disfmarker} in fact , um I won't even go that far . Um something like this shape , you know , sort of something that you can {disfmarker} that's sort of a more vertical shape , um that you you sort of hold in your hand , um , well I'm trying to think uh uh uh l uh l such as {disfmarker} I mean um something you hold up like that , possibly with a couple of buttons like that , but with the the entire top with the , you know , the uh the infrared or whatever source .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Uh so that you know , it's flying off in all directions ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: so that uh um uh {vocalsound} again the {disfmarker} n need to look at the the the technicalities of um actually achieving that in terms of whether the , you know , the power requirements of the uh {disfmarker} such a source , um you know , compromise the {disfmarker} our our need for uh you know , it it being um mm permanently uh you know , available .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh whether whether different technology {disfmarker} um I mean th all all these remotes are presumably infrared , and like they have been for a long time . Uh we we possibly need to be looking at at at something different , um you know , short range , not like the old uh radio remote controls where you'd change next door's telly when you change yours . Um
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but uh uh I think basically i if we're going for {disfmarker} i if minimum number of buttons is our priority , then we should , as I say , r know , really bite the bullets and and reduce the buttons to absolute minimum , you know , possibly with backup channel and volume buttons and on off . Um and nothing else . {vocalsound} Um so that it can al it could uh almost end up like that , but again , except that um {disfmarker} you know the risk of losing it . Um anyway okay um so Kate , wh what are your uh your thoughts on this ?
Industrial Designer: Yes , mm . {gap}
User Interface: Oh .
Industrial Designer: Which one does this plug into ?
User Interface: Hmm I think it's all there .
Industrial Designer: That one .
User Interface: H
Industrial Designer: I can't {disfmarker} did you {gap} {disfmarker} could you see it on you screen when it {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's not cool . {vocalsound}
User Interface: That's kind of strange .
Industrial Designer: Oh well . Anyways . Um alright , yeah , so um I'll just do my presentation on the working design uh . {vocalsound} Oh there we go . Okay um just at the m yeah the whole sort of method of how the remote control works . Uh the basic function of the remote control is to send messages to another sh system , the the T_V_ or the D_V_D_ player or whatever .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um and it does this uh by {disfmarker} well , you need {disfmarker} to start off you need an energy source {vocalsound} and this energy source will feed into an integrated circuit chip and the circuit chip is the part that actually composes the different messages uh within the remote um which will then be sent to the uh the television , the D_V_D_ to tell that what to do . Um and you need a user interface , which controls the chip and thus the messages and uh the user interface is {disfmarker} that's basically just you kn the s sorta design of the actual remote which you hold in your hands and what buttons will be on it . Um {disfmarker} Oh shoot . Okay . Uh just general findings . Uh what we need uh technically speaking for the remote control is some sort of energy source , {vocalsound} uh some sort of user interface , which I think we've mostly been talking about the user interface and the design of that . Um a circuit chip within that to uh control and send the messages and um a sender and receiver . And um {disfmarker} oops . Uh-huh . This is just sort of a little schematic diagram of what we're looking for . Uh this just kinda represents the energy source
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: which feeds into the circuit chip uh which maybe then we could have that feed into a switch which would send signals f to um {vocalsound} a subcomponent and on to a light bulb between {disfmarker} so it'll light up once we start {disfmarker} once you start pressing buttons . Um also send signals to the um infrared bulb , which will be the part that actually {disfmarker} {vocalsound} what ? Sends signals to the the television . And then you've got your happy little T_V_ watcher there .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And so my personal preferences {disfmarker} I I just think we need sorta big uh energy source that won't die out , uh perhaps some sort of rechargeable battery or a battery dock you could place it in , so it'd constantly be charged , so you wouldn't have to uh be worrying about it running out of batteries and not changing channels for you . Uh a wide range uh sender-receiver , so that you can hit the buttons from basically anywhere in the room , and the channel'll still be changed . Uh also definitely a user-friendly interface {vocalsound} um and I think we've all sort of mentioned adding a a locating device on it , so when it does get stuck under the couch cushions , as they inevitably do , you can find them easily . And that's pretty much it .
Project Manager: Okay . Uh it seems seems to me there are a number of fundamental decisions to make before we um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm . {gap}
Project Manager: I think your point about the the big energy source is uh a very valid one .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Um I don't suppose we've got any statistics on the the life expectancy of uh remote controls , particularly sort of independent ones . Um given you know , the number of things you buy these days , which you know , have a a a lithium whatever battery in , that's uh , you know never needs replacing .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um perhaps we should have the the disposable remote control , uh um you know , one {disfmarker} some sort of typical usage . You know , the the the battery will last know , five , ten years . By which time {disfmarker} I mean when all's said and done , the digital television {vocalsound} will be taking over in that time scale . Um
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: uh uh p perhaps we should , know , reduce the uh , you know , the sort of moving parts even more by not even having a battery compartment and uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Just having one that's guaranteed to last five to ten years ?
Project Manager: Yeah , and if if anybody manages to run it down , we'll we'll give 'em a new one .
Industrial Designer: Oh , cool . {vocalsound} Yeah , fair enough .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um it's , you know , it's {disfmarker} what it saves in cost and you know there there's a {disfmarker} well , it's actually a marketing gimmick . I mean it's hardly a gimmick , it's uh it's totally practical . Uh so I th think you know the idea of a rechargeable one is um uh unless you're really high tech and it sort of just recharges itself if it's n by , you know , magnetic waves or whatever , if if it {disfmarker}
Marketing: It could have like uh {disfmarker} know like a cordless phone in your house it s got like a base that sits there all the time .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm , mm .
Project Manager: Are are people really gonna use it though ? Um .
User Interface: Yeah , people are pro
Marketing: {vocalsound} I suppose , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah {vocalsound}
User Interface: I would think that people might forget {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I I th I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: I mean people forget to put their cordless phones back on there ,
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Mm-mm .
User Interface: so .
Project Manager: Yeah , it's
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: um {disfmarker} I mean I know that somei times my my wife goes out in the morning and says oh I should have put the phone on to charge
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: and then then she's had those for so long that if she hasn't worked that out by now . Um .
Industrial Designer: 'Cause I only remember to charge my cell phone uh when battery dies . {vocalsound} And that's pretty much {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: When it {disfmarker} yeah , wh when it's died is a problem .
Industrial Designer: yeah . Yeah , when it turns itself off , that's when I plug it in ,
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah , yeah , {gap} so uh um
Industrial Designer: yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: what so wh what what do we think about the um the the permanent mm battery ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , think that's a good idea .
User Interface: No .
Marketing: Uh . That sounds pretty good , yeah .
Project Manager: Is the uh {disfmarker} you know , we we we are really going for the ultimate in ex uh external simplicity here .
User Interface: Um .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Um you know , cut cost within the manufacturing and uh you know , if we have a high tech interior , then then that that sh may well be cost effective .
User Interface: Do they make batteries that last that long ?
Project Manager: I mean th th certainly . Um I can't think of anything off the s top of my head ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} They usually have the little light uh {vocalsound} source ,
Project Manager: but there are certainly things that you buy . I mean calculators for example .
Industrial Designer: I dunno what the heck they're called ,
User Interface: Yeah , they have that little solar {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: the {disfmarker} but
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Som well some do ,
Industrial Designer: yeah , the little cells that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I mean th th but there are battery ones
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: that um are you know , sort of permanently sealed .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: In in fact I'd {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Most of them , don't they have sort of a combination of the two , like when there is light , they'll work off the light ,
Project Manager: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: and if there isn't , they'll kick into this battery ,
Project Manager: uh uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so we can maybe do something like that whereas there is a battery , but if there's enough light , then it's using the light , so that it's not actually draining the battery all the time , but you will have the battery there for when you need it .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah , I I mean th th this needs going t into the technology a bit .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: I mean the the actual time that a remote control is actually operating
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: I would think is i is is probably , you know , no more than minutes in its entire life . Um . {gap}
Industrial Designer: Oh , it depend if it's {disfmarker} uh depends who who's using it , who's just sitting there clicking clicking clicking clicking ,
User Interface: Yeah , some people are {disfmarker}
Project Manager: If , but I say if if people are getting R_S_I_ from it then uh then uh then then perhaps we're looking at the wrong market
Industrial Designer: yeah . Yeah , {vocalsound} then they're clicking a lot , yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} W
Project Manager: n
Marketing: like like this um this uh market research thing says number of times per hour that it's used , channel selection a hundred and sixty eight
User Interface: {vocalsound} Per hour ?
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: times per hour .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: Wow . {vocalsound} That's a lot . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh , I must admit I hadn't um {disfmarker} I'd I'd missed that . That does sound excessive .
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: But then again , if you think it {disfmarker} of the amount of , you know amount of use it's like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: That's {disfmarker} it's less than a second , um .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Well that's right , and and I I don't I don't even know whether the I don't even know whether the s the signal lasts as long as you actually keep the button pressed ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: or whether it's just a
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: sorta tenth of a second , no matter how long you press it for , I don't know I don't actually know . Um .
User Interface: Though I think with digital T_V_ , like I know on my cable box , you're not supposed to do that because the channel can't keep up with it if you just press it like that ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: so you're supposed to use the menu and go through the different
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: channels that way instead of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm . {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Right , so I've got a message to say five minutes , I dunno how long ago that appeared . Um 'cause we're we're getting
User Interface: Uh-oh .
Project Manager: um {disfmarker} right , so I'd {disfmarker} I need to sum up very quickly here um . {vocalsound} We're looking at extreme simplicity . We're looking at a radically different shape . Possibly no buttons at all um , but if you can incorporate um channel change and volume buttons um in into the design , then then that's fine . Um in the {disfmarker} I mean the the role of the of the um the user interface des designer becomes b you know more important here , because , you know , shape is no longer an a uh um a serious constraint . But we clearly only need th the main buttons , although , uh if {disfmarker} clearly only need the main functions . Um I don't see why we shouldn't go for voice recognition um and the the only buttons that I think we need are channel control , volume control and on off . Um it needs to incorporate the corporate logo , uh the the grey and yellow colour scheme and {vocalsound} there's no reason why we can't introduce um interchangeable uh covers . {vocalsound} Um uh d so does that accurately summarise what we've discussed ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yep . Hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Right .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah . We are doing just the television .
User Interface: Oh I just have one question . So are we doing just the television or are we doing {disfmarker} so not D_V_D_ players ,
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: we okay , okay .
Project Manager: I think that's quite clear from the the information that we've been given ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: no ?
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah , like in the email of television only . In fact they're {gap} in the constraints email that I got .
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: Didn't you mention the teletext , just television only ?
Project Manager: Oh yeah well th that's one I s that's one I sent you ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: which which was my interpretation of uh of the uh {disfmarker} what came down from from head office . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh okay . {vocalsound} Oh yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh {vocalsound} okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's {vocalsound} that that that that's their uh their view .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , so uh we can all give some thought to that uh for for the next meeting , thank you very much indeed .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Cool .
User Interface: {vocalsound} | |
doc_175 | Grad G: headphones that aren't so uncomfortable .
PhD B: I think {disfmarker} Well , this should be off the record ,
Professor D: Hmm .
PhD B: but I think {disfmarker}
Professor D: Uh , OK .
Professor A: We 're not recording yet , are we ?
Grad G: Well , I don't think {disfmarker}
PhD F: No , uh , that {disfmarker} that wasn't recorded .
Grad G: No . Um , I don't think they 're designed to be over your ears .
PhD B: Yeah , I know . It just {disfmarker} it really hurts . It gives you a headache , like if you {disfmarker} On your temple {disfmarker}
PhD F: Temple squeezers .
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad G: Yep .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: But I definitely {pause} haven't figured it out .
Professor A: Um , Meeting Recorder meeting .
PhD F: I guess I have to d stop doing this sigh of contentment , you know , after sipping cappuccino or something .
PhD B: Yeah , with the {disfmarker} We kno I know .
Grad G: " Sip , sigh . "
PhD B: We know exactly how much you have left in your cup .
PhD F: I was just noticing a big s
Professor D: So are we recording now ? Is this {disfmarker}
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: Oh ! We 're {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're live . OK .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: So , uh , {vocalsound} what were we gonna talk about again ? So we said {disfmarker} we said data collection , which we 're doing .
PhD B: Were we gonna do digits ?
Professor A: OK . Do we do th do you go around the room {pause} and do names or anything ?
Grad G: I think that {disfmarker}
PhD E: It 's a good idea .
Grad G: u usually we 've done that and also we 've s done digits as well , but I forgot to print any out . So . Besides with this big a group ,
PhD B: You can write them on the board , if you want .
Professor D: No . I it 'd be even better with this big {disfmarker}
Grad G: it would take too much time .
PhD E: Which way is {disfmarker}
Grad G: Yeah , but it takes too much time .
PhD E: Mari ?
Postdoc H: What {disfmarker}
Professor A: What ?
Professor D: It 's not that long .
PhD E: Y I think your {disfmarker} your {disfmarker} your thing {nonvocalsound} may be pointing in a funny direction . Sort of it 's {disfmarker} it helps if it points sort of upwards .
Professor A: Whoops .
PhD E: Sort of it {disfmarker} you know .
Professor A: Would it {disfmarker} m
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: w u
PhD E: So that thing {disfmarker} the little {disfmarker} th that part should be pointing upwards .
Professor A: So {disfmarker} Oh , this thing .
PhD E: That 's it . Yeah .
Professor A: Yeah .
Postdoc H: Otherwise you just get a heartbeats .
Professor A: It 's kind of {disfmarker}
Professor D: Oh , yeah , the element , yeah , n should be as close to you {disfmarker} your mouth as possible .
Professor A: Yeah . OK .
PhD E: That 's good . That kind of thing is good .
Postdoc H: It 's a {disfmarker}
Professor A: This w Alright .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: How 's that working ?
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD E: Oh , yeah . It 's a {disfmarker} It 's working .
Professor A: OK .
Professor D: Alright . So what we had {pause} was that we were gonna talk about data collection , and , um , uh , you {disfmarker} you put up there data format ,
Professor A: Um .
Professor D: and other tasks during data collection ,
Professor A: So , I think the goal {disfmarker} the goal was what can we do {disfmarker} how can you do the data collection differently to get {disfmarker}
Professor D: and {disfmarker}
Professor A: what can you add to it to get , um , some information that would be helpful for the user - interface design ? Like {disfmarker}
Grad G: Uh , especially for querying .
Professor A: Especially for querying . So , getting people to do queries afterwards , getting people to do summaries afterwards . Um .
Postdoc H: Well , one thing that came up in the morning {disfmarker} in the morning was the , um , i uh , if he {disfmarker} I , um {disfmarker} if he has {disfmarker} s I {disfmarker} I don't remember , Mister Lan - Doctor Landry ?
Grad G: Landay . James .
Postdoc H: La - Landay ? So he has , um , these , uh , um , tsk {comment} note - taking things ,
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc H: then that would sort of be a summary which you wouldn't have to solicit . y if {disfmarker} if we were able to {disfmarker} to do that .
Professor A: Well , if {disfmarker} if you actually take notes as a summary as opposed to n take notes in the sense of taking advantage of the time - stamps . So action item or uh , reminder to send this to so - and - so , blah - blah - blah .
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: So that wouldn't be a summary . That would just be {disfmarker} that would b relate to the query side .
Grad G: But if we had the CrossPads , we could ask people , you know , if {disfmarker} if something comes up {vocalsound} write it down and mark it {vocalsound} {pause} somehow ,
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Right . I mean , we {disfmarker} because you 'd have several people with these pads , you could collect different things .
Grad G: you know .
Professor A: Right .
PhD E: I mean , cuz I tend to take notes which are summaries . And so , you know {disfmarker}
PhD F: I mean , the down - side to that is that he sort of indicated that the , uh , quality of {vocalsound} the handwriting recognition was quite poor .
Professor A: Well {disfmarker}
Grad G: But that 's alright . I don't think there 'd be so many that you couldn't have someone clean it up
Professor A: So {disfmarker}
Grad G: pretty easily .
Professor A: Yeah . We also could come up with some code for things that people want to do so that {disfmarker} for frequent things .
PhD F: Yeah .
Professor A: And the other things , people can write whatever they want . I mean , it 's to some extent , uh , for his benefit . So , if that {disfmarker} you know , if {disfmarker} if we just keep it simple then maybe it 's still useful .
PhD F: Right .
Grad G: Yeah .
Professor D: I just realized we skipped the part that we were saying we were gonna do at the front where we each said who we were .
Postdoc H: The roll call .
Professor A: Right . I thought you did that on purpose .
Professor D: Roll call .
Professor A: But anyway , shall we do the roll call ?
Professor D: No , not a No , I just {disfmarker} My mind went elsewhere . So , uh , yeah , I 'm Morgan , and where am I ? I 'm on channel three .
Grad G: And I 'm Adam Janin on channel A .
Postdoc H: I 'm Jane Edwards , I think on channel B .
PhD E: I 'm Dan Ellis .
PhD F: Eric on channel nine .
PhD B: Liz , on channel one .
Professor A: Mari on channel zero .
Professor C: Katrin on channel two .
Postdoc H: Should we have used pseudo - names ? Should we do it a second time with pseudo No . {vocalsound} No .
Professor D: I 'm Rocky Raccoon {vocalsound} on channel {disfmarker}
PhD E: Let me , uh , turn that off .
Grad G: And , uh , do you want to do the P D As and the {pause} P Z
PhD E: Oh . PZM nearest , nearest , next nearest . Next one .
Postdoc H: Next nearest .
PhD E: Furthest .
Grad G: Far .
PhD E: PDM - right , PZA - right {disfmarker} PDA - right , PDA - left .
Postdoc H: OK .
PhD E: Thanks .
Grad G: Yeah , and eventually once this room gets a little more organized , the Jimlets {comment} will be mounted under the table , and these guys will be permanently mounted somehow . You know , probably with double - sided tape , but {disfmarker} So . You {disfmarker} So we won't have to go through that .
Professor A: Hmm .
Postdoc H: I have a question on protocol in these meetings , which is when you say " Jimlet " and the person listening won't know what that is , sh shou How {disfmarker} how do we get {disfmarker} Is that important information ? You know , the Jimlet {disfmarker} I mean , the box that contains the {disfmarker}
Professor D: Well , I mean , suppose we broaden out and go to a range of meetings besides just these internal ones . There 's gonna be lots of things that any group of people who know each other have in column {disfmarker} common {comment} that we will not know .
Professor A: Right .
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Right .
Postdoc H: OK .
Professor A: So the there will be jargon that we he There 'll be transcription errors .
Postdoc H: Good .
Professor D: Yeah .
Postdoc H: OK .
Professor D: I mean , we {disfmarker} we were originally gonna do this with VLSI design , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and the reason we didn't go straight to that was because immediately ninety percent of what we heard would be {vocalsound} jargon to {disfmarker} to us . So .
Grad G: Well , that was just one of the reasons . But , yeah , definitely .
Professor D: Yeah .
Postdoc H: OK . Good .
Professor D: That {disfmarker} that 's right . There were others of course . Yeah .
Postdoc H: OK , so we were on the data collection {pause} {comment} and the summary issue .
Professor D: Right . We can go back .
Professor A: So , uh , u u So , actually there 's kind of three issues . There 's the CrossPad issue . Should we do it and , if so , what 'll we have them do ? Um , do we have s people write summaries ? Everybody or one person ? And then , do we ask people for how they would query things ? Is that {disfmarker}
PhD F: There 's {disfmarker} there 're sub - problems in that , in that where {disfmarker} or when do you actually ask them about that ?
Professor A: Right .
PhD F: I mean , that was {disfmarker} One thing I was thinking about was is that Dan said earlier that , you know , maybe two weeks later , which is when you would want to query these things , you might ask them then .
Professor A: Right .
PhD F: But there 's a problem with that in that if {pause} you 're not {disfmarker} If you don't have an interactive system , it 's gonna be hard to go beyond sort of the first level of question .
Professor A: Right .
PhD F: Right . And furth id explore the data further .
Professor A: Right .
PhD F: So .
Professor D: There 's {disfmarker} there 's another problem
Grad G: And {disfmarker}
Professor D: which is , um , we certainly do want to branch out beyond , uh , uh , recording meetings about Meeting Recorder . And , uh , once we get out beyond our little group , the people 's motivation factor , uh , reduces enormously . And if we start giving them a bunch of other things to do , how {disfmarker} you know , we {disfmarker} we did n you know another meeting here for another group and {disfmarker} and , uh , they were fine with it . But if we 'd said , " OK , now all eight of you have to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} have to come up with , uh , the summar "
Grad G: Well , I asked them to and none of them did .
Professor D: t See ? There we go .
Grad G: So , I {disfmarker} I asked them to send me ideas for queries after the meeting
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: They {disfmarker}
Grad G: and no one ever did .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: I didn't follow up either .
Professor A: Yeah .
Grad G: So I didn't track them down and say " please do th do it now " . But , uh , no one spontaneously provided anything .
Professor D: I I 'm worried that if you did {disfmarker} even if you did push them into it , it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it might be semi - random ,
Professor A: Right .
Professor D: uh , as opposed to what you 'd really want to know if you were gonna use this thing .
PhD E: Right .
Professor A: OK .
Grad G: I just don't know how else to generate the queries other than getting an expert to actually listen to the meeting and say " that 's important , that might be a query " .
Postdoc H: Tsk . Well , there is this other thing which y which you were alluding to earlier , which is , um , there are certain key words like , you know , " action item " and things like that , which could be used in , uh , t to some degree finding the structure .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD E: Although {disfmarker}
Professor A: W
Postdoc H: And {disfmarker} and I also , um , was thinking , with reference to the n uh , note - taking , the advantage there is that you get structure without the person having to do something artificial later . And the fir third thing I wanted to say is the summaries afterwards , um , I think they should be recorded instead of written because I think that , um , it would take so long for people to write that I think you wouldn't get as good a summary .
Professor A: How about this idea ? That normally at most meetings somebody is delegated to be a note - taker .
Postdoc H: Yeah , good . Good point .
Professor A: And {disfmarker} So why don't we just use the notes that somebody takes ?
Postdoc H: Yeah .
Grad G: I mean , that gives you a summary but it doesn't really {disfmarker} How do you generate queries from that ?
PhD E: Well . But , I mean , maybe a summary is one of the things we 'd want from the output of the system .
Postdoc H: Yeah .
Professor A: Right .
PhD E: Right ? I mean , they 're something . It 's a {disfmarker} a kind of output you 'd like .
PhD B: Actually {disfmarker} And so {disfmarker}
Grad G: Uh , James and I were talking about this during one of the breaks . And the problem with that is , I 'm definitely going to do something with information retrieval even if it 's sort of not full full - bore what I 'm gonna do for my thesis .
Professor A: Right .
Grad G: I 'm gonna do something . I 'm not gonna do anything with summarization . And so if someone wants to do that , that 's fine , but it 's not gonna be me .
Professor D: Well , I think that we {disfmarker} I mean , the {disfmarker} the f the core thing is that you know once we get some of these issues nailed down , we need to do a bunch of recordings
Professor A: Well {disfmarker}
Professor D: and send them off to IBM and get a bunch of transcriptions even if they 're slightly flawed
Grad G: Yep .
Professor D: or need some other {disfmarker} And then we 'll have some data there .
Professor A: Yeah .
Professor D: And then , i i we can start l looking and thinking , what do we want to know about these things and {disfmarker} at the very least .
PhD E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Yeah {disfmarker}
PhD B: I actually want to say something about the note pad . So , if you could sense just when people are writing , and you tell them not to doodle , or try not to {pause} be using that for other purposes , {comment} and each person has a note pad . They just get it when they come in the room . Then you c you can just have a fff {comment} plot of wh you know , who 's writing when .
Professor D: Hmm .
PhD B: That 's all you {disfmarker}
PhD E: Activity . Yeah .
PhD B: And , you can also have notes of the meeting . But I bet that 's {disfmarker} that will allow you to go into the {disfmarker} sort of the hot places where people are writing things down .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: Oh , I see .
PhD B: I mean , you can tell when you 're in a meeting when everybody stops to write something down that something was just said .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: It may not be kept in the later summary , but at that point in time is was something that was important .
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And that wouldn't take any extra {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: That 's a nice idea .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Or someone could just pu you could just put your hand on the pad
Professor D: It {disfmarker}
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: and go like that if you want to . It 's {disfmarker}
Professor D: That 's a good idea but that doesn't {disfmarker} Maybe I 'm missing something , but that doesn't get to the question of how we come up with queries , right ?
Professor A: Well , what it does {disfmarker}
PhD B: Well , then you can go to the points where the {disfmarker} you could actually go to those points in time and find out what they were talking about . And you r
Professor A: Well , what it does is provide a different {disfmarker}
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD B: And {disfmarker}
Grad G: Uh , y
Professor A: I {disfmarker} I think it 's an interesting thing . I don't think it gets at the {disfmarker} the queries per - se , but it does give us an information fusion sort of thing that , you know , you wanna i say " what were the hot - points of the meeting ? "
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor D: That {disfmarker} that 's what I mean , is that I think it gets at something interesting but if we were asking the question , which I thought we were , of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of , um , " how do we figure out what 's the nature of the queries that people are gonna want to ask of such a system ? " , knowing what 's important doesn't tell you what people are going to be asking .
PhD B: But I bet it 's a good {pause} superset of it .
Professor D: Does it ?
Professor A: Well , yeah .
PhD E: Well , see , there are th
Professor A: I think you could say they 're gonna ask about , uh , when {disfmarker} uh , when did so - and - so s talk about blah . And at least that gives you the word {pause} that they might run a query on .
PhD B: At least you can find the locations where there are maybe keywords
Professor D: Maybe .
Grad G: I mean , i this would tell you what the hit is ,
PhD B: and {disfmarker}
Grad G: not what the query is .
Professor A: Right .
PhD B: Right , right .
Grad G: What {disfmarker}
Professor A: It 'll tell you the hit but not the query .
PhD B: But I think {disfmarker} I think thinking about queries is a little bit dangerous right now .
Grad G: And so you could {disfmarker} you can generate a query from the hits ,
Professor A: Right .
Grad G: but {disfmarker}
PhD B: We don't even know what {disfmarker} I mean , if you want to find out what any user will use , that might be true for one domain and one user ,
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: but I mean a different domain and a different user {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Yeah , but we 're just looking for a place to start with that
PhD B: Um .
Professor D: because , you know , th what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what James is gonna be doing is looking at the user - interface and he 's looking at the query in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} i We {disfmarker} we have five hours of pilot data of the other stuff but we have zero hours of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of queries . So he 's just sort of going " where {disfmarker} where do I {disfmarker} where do I start ? "
Professor A: w Well , th you could do {disfmarker} I think the summaries actually may help get us there ,
Professor D: OK .
Professor A: for a couple reasons . One , if you have a summary {disfmarker} if you have a bunch of summaries , you can do a word frequency count and see what words come up in different types of meetings .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: So " action item " is gonna come up whether it 's a VLSI meeting , or speech meeting , or whatever . So words that come up in different types of meetings may be something that you would want to query about .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Um , the second thing you could possibly do with it is just run a little pilot experiment with somebody saying " here 's a summary of a meeting , what questions might you want to ask about it to go back ? "
Grad G: Yeah , I think that 's difficult because then they 're not gonna ask the questions that are in the summary .
Professor A: Well {disfmarker}
Grad G: But , I think it would give {disfmarker}
Professor A: That 's one possi one possible scenario , though , is you have the summary ,
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: and you want to ask questions to get more detail .
Grad G: th Yeah , I think it has to be a participant . Well , it doesn't have to be . OK . So that {disfmarker} that is another use of Meeting Recorder that we haven't really talked about , which is for someone else , as opposed to as a {pause} remembrance agent , which is what had been my primary thought in the information retrieval part of it would be . But , uh , I guess if you had a meeting participant , they could use the summary to refresh themselves about the meeting and then make up queries . But it 's not {disfmarker}
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: I don't know how to do it if {disfmarker} until you have a system .
PhD B: The summary is actually gonna drive the queries then .
Professor A: Mmm .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD B: I mean , your research is going to be very circular .
Professor A: Yeah .
Grad G: Yeah , that {disfmarker} that 's what I was saying .
PhD E: But th there is this , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} There is this class of queries , which are the things that you didn't realize were important at the time but some in retrospect you think " oh , hang on , didn't we talk about that ? " And it 's something that didn't appear in the summary but you {disfmarker}
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: And that 's kind of what this kind of , uh , complete data capture is kind of nicest for .
Professor A: Right . Right .
PhD B: Right .
PhD E: Cuz it 's the things that you wouldn't have bothered to make an effort to record but they get recorded . So , I mean {disfmarker} And th there 's no way of generating those , u u until we just {disfmarker} until they actually occur .
PhD B: But you could always post - hoc label them .
PhD E: You know , it 's like {disfmarker} Right , right . Exactly .
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD E: But I mean , it 's difficult to sort of say " and if I was gonna ask four questions about this , what would they be ? " Those aren't the kind of things that come up .
Grad G: But at least it would get us started .
PhD E: Oh , yeah . Yeah , sure .
Postdoc H: I also think that w if {disfmarker} if you can use the summaries as an indication of the important points of the {disfmarker} of the meeting , then you might get something like {disfmarker} y So if th if the obscure item you want to know more about was some form of data collection , you know , maybe the summary would say , you know , " we discussed types of na data collection " . And , you know {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} and maybe you could get to it by that . If you {disfmarker} if you had the {disfmarker} the larger structure of the {disfmarker} of the discourse , then if you can categorize what it is that you 're looking for with reference to those l those larger headings , then you can find it even if you don't have a direct route to that .
Grad G: Mmm . Although it seems like that 's , um , a high burden on the note - taker .
Postdoc H: I think that {disfmarker}
Grad G: That 's a pretty fine grain that the note - taker will have to take .
PhD B: Maybe Landay can put a student in to be a note - taker .
Professor A: I th No . I think you got to have somebody who knows the pro knows the topic or {disfmarker} you know , whose job it is delegated to be the note - taker .
PhD B: No ?
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Somebody who 's part of the meeting .
PhD B: No , I mean , but someone who can come sit in on the meetings and then takes the notes with them that the real note - taker {disfmarker}
Grad G: But they {disfmarker}
PhD B: And that way that one student has , you know , a rough idea of what was going on , and they can use it for their research . I mean , this isn't really necessarily what you would do in a real system ,
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: because that that 's a lot of trouble
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: and maybe it 's not the best way to do it . But if he has some students that want to study that then they should sort of get to know the people and attend those meetings ,
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: and get the notes from the note - taker or something .
Grad G: Right .
Professor D: Hmm .
Grad G: Well , I think that 's a little bit of a problem . Their sort of note - taking application stuff they 've been doing for the last couple of years , and I don't think anyone is still working on it .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad G: I think they 're done . Um , so I 'm not sure that they have anyone currently working on notes . So what we 'd have to interest someone in is the combination of note and speech .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: And so the question is " is there such a person ? " And I think right now , the answer is " no " .
Professor A: Well
Professor D: I 've b been thinking {disfmarker}
Grad G: We 'll just have to see .
Professor D: I 've been thinking about it a little bit here {disfmarker} about the {disfmarker} uh , th this , e um {disfmarker} I think that the {disfmarker} now I 'm thinking that the summary {disfmarker} a summary , uh , is actually a reasonable , uh , bootstrap into this {disfmarker} into what we 'd like to get at . It 's {disfmarker} it 's not ideal , but we {disfmarker} you know , we {disfmarker} we have to get started someplace . So I was {disfmarker} I was just thinking about , um , suppose we wanted to get {disfmarker} w We have this collection of meeting . We have five hours of stuff . Uh , we get that transcribed . So now we have five hours of meetings and , uh , you ask me , uh , uh , " Morgan , what d you know , what kind of questions do you want to ask ? " Uh , I wouldn't have any idea what kind of questions I want to ask . I 'd have to get started someplace . So in fact if I looked at summary of it , I 'd go " oh , yeah , I was in that meeting , I remember that , um , what was the part that {disfmarker} " And {disfmarker} and th I think that might then help me to think of things {disfmarker} even things that aren't listed in the summary , but just as a {disfmarker} as a {disfmarker} as a refresh of what the general thing was going on in the meeting .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: I think it serves two purpo purposes . One , as sort of a refresh to help bootstrap queries ,
Professor D: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor A: but also , I mean , maybe we do want to generate summaries . And then it 's {disfmarker} you know , it 's kind of a key .
Professor D: Well , yeah . That 's true too .
PhD E: Hmm .
Grad G: Yeah , absolutely . Then you want to have it .
Professor A: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD B: So how does the summary get generated ?
Professor A: Well , i i {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: I 'm not against the idea of a summary ,
Grad G: By hand .
PhD B: but I wanted to think carefully about who 's generating it
Professor A: Or , d o
PhD B: and how {disfmarker} because the summary will drive the queries .
Professor A: What I {disfmarker} I think , you know , in most meetings ,
PhD B: So {disfmarker}
Professor A: this one being {pause} different , but in most meetings that I attend , there 's somebody t explicitly taking notes , frequently on a laptop {disfmarker} Um , you can just make it be on a laptop ,
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: so then yo you 're dealing with ASCII and not somebody {disfmarker} you don't have to go through handwriting recognition . Um , and then they post - edit it into , uh , a summary and they email it out for minutes . I mean , that happens in most meetings .
Postdoc H: I I {disfmarker} I think that , um , there 's {disfmarker} we 're using " summary " in two different ways . So what you just described I would describe as " minutes " .
Grad G: Minutes .
Professor A: Right .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc H: And what I originally thought was , um , if you asked someone " what was the meeting about ? "
PhD B: OK .
Professor A: Hmm .
Postdoc H: And then they would say " well , we talked about this and then we talked about that , and so - and - so talked about {disfmarker} " And then you 'd have , like {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} e My thought was to have multiple people summarize it , on recording rather than writing because writing takes time and you get irrelevant other things that u take time , that {disfmarker}
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc H: Whereas if you just say it immediately after the meeting , you know , a two - minute summary of what the meeting was about , I think you would get , uh , with mult See , I {disfmarker} I also worry about having a single note - taker because that 's just one person 's perception . And , um , you know , it {disfmarker} it 's releva it 's relative to what you 're focus was on that meeting ,
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc H: and {disfmarker} and people have different {comment} major topics that they 're interested in .
Professor D: A
Postdoc H: So , my proposal would be that it may be worth considering both of those types , you know , the note - taking and a spontaneous oral summary afterwards ,
Professor A: OK .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc H: no longer than two minutes ,
Professor D: Adam , you can {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: from multiple people .
Professor D: you can correct me on this ,
Postdoc H: Yeah .
Professor D: but {disfmarker} but , uh , my impression was that , uh , pretty much , uh , true that the meetings here , nobody sits with a w uh , with a laptop
Grad G: Never .
Professor D: and {disfmarker}
Grad G: Never . I 've never seen it at ICSI . Does anyone {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: Dan ?
Professor D: I
Grad G: I mean , Dan is the one who {disfmarker} who most frequently would take notes ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad G: and {disfmarker}
PhD E: I 've d When we {disfmarker} when we have other meetings . When I have meetings on the European projects , we have someone taking notes .
Grad G: Oh , really ?
Professor D: Yeah , but those are bigger deal things .
PhD E: In fact , I often do it .
Professor D: Right ? Where you 've got fifteen peo
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: I mean , most {disfmarker} th this is one of the larger meetings . Most of the meetings we have are four or five people
Grad G: That 's true {disfmarker} are four or five people .
Professor A: Yeah .
Professor D: and you 're not {disfmarker} you don't have somebody sitting and taking minutes for it .
Professor A: Right .
Professor D: You just {vocalsound} get together and talk about where you are .
Professor A: So , I think it depends on whether it 's a business meeting or a technical discussion .
Grad G: Culture .
Professor D: Yeah .
Professor A: And I agree ,
Professor D: Yeah .
Professor A: technical discussions you don't usually have somebody taking notes .
Professor D: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad G: The IRAM meeting , they {disfmarker} they take notes every {disfmarker}
Professor D: Do they ?
Grad G: There 's uh a person with a laptop {pause} at each meeting .
PhD E: How many people are those meetings ?
Grad G: There are more . I mean , there are ten - ish .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD B: Y you should also have a record of what 's on the board .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad G: They 're very sparse .
PhD B: I mean , I find it very {pause} hard to reconstruct what 's going on . I {disfmarker} I don't know how {disfmarker}
Grad G: Yeah . This is something early in the project we talked a lot about .
PhD B: I don't know how , but for instance , I mean , the outline is sort of up here and that 's what people are seeing . And if you have a {disfmarker} Or you shou could tell people not to {disfmarker} to use the boards . But there 's sort of this missing information otherwise .
PhD E: We sh we should {disfmarker}
Grad G: I agree , but {disfmarker} but you {disfmarker} you just {disfmarker} you g end up with video ,
Postdoc H: I agree .
PhD E: Well , I don't know .
Grad G: and {disfmarker} and instrumented rooms . And {pause} that 's a different project , I think .
PhD E: f u I think for this data capture , it would be nice to have a digital camera
Grad G: Yeah , different {disfmarker}
PhD B: Uh , y
PhD E: just to take pictures of who 's there , where the microphones are , and then we could also put in what 's on the board . You know , like three or four snaps for every {disfmarker}
PhD B: Right .
Postdoc H: I agree .
PhD B: Yeah . People who were never at the meeting will have a very hard time understanding it otherwise .
PhD E: for every meeting .
Postdoc H: That 's wonderful .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: But don't you think that 's {disfmarker} Don't you think that {disfmarker} But {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: I agree .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Even people who were at the meeting .
PhD E: Well , no . I mean , I {disfmarker} I just think {disfmarker} I mean , I think that right now we don't make a record of where people are sitting on the tables .
Professor A: Right .
Grad G: Huh .
PhD E: And that {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} at some point that might be awfully useful .
Grad G: Right . But I think adding photographs adds a whole nother level of problems .
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Mmm .
PhD E: Yeah . We n uh ,
Postdoc H: It 's just a digital record .
PhD E: Not {disfmarker} not as part of the {disfmarker} not as a part of the data that you have to recover .
PhD B: I don't mean that you model it .
PhD E: Just {disfmarker} just in terms of {disfmarker}
PhD B: We should just {disfmarker} Like archiving it or storing it .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc H: Yes , I agree . I agree .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc H: It 's i because discourse is about things ,
PhD B: Because someone {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: and then you have the things that are about , and it 's recoverable .
PhD B: someone later might be able to take these and say " OK , they , you know {disfmarker} at least these are the people who were there
PhD E: So {disfmarker}
PhD B: and here 's sort of what they started talking about , and {disfmarker} " and just {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: Yes . And it 's so simple .
Professor D: Li
Postdoc H: Like you said , three snapshots
Professor D: uh , L L L
Postdoc H: and {disfmarker}
Professor D: Liz , you {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: Just to archive .
Professor D: u uh , Liz , you sa you sat in on the , uh , {vocalsound} subcommittee meeting or whatever {disfmarker}
PhD E: Actually {disfmarker}
Professor D: uh , on {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} on the subcommittee meeting for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} at the , uh {disfmarker} that workshop we were at that , uh , uh , Mark Liberman was {disfmarker} was having . So I {disfmarker} I wasn't there . They {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they h must have had some discussion about video and the visual aspect , and all that .
PhD B: Big , big interest . Huge .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD B: I mean , it {disfmarker} personally , I don't {disfmarker} I would never want to deal with it . But I 'm just saying first of all there 's a whole bunch of fusion issues that DARPA 's interested in .
Professor D: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD B: You know , fusing gesture and face recognition ,
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD B: even lip movement and things like that , for this kind of task . And there 's also I think a personal interest on the part of Mark Liberman in this kind of {disfmarker} in storing these images in any data we collect
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: so that later we can do other things with it .
Professor D: Yeah . So {disfmarker} so to address what {disfmarker} what Adam 's saying ,
Postdoc H: Mmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And {disfmarker}
Professor D: I mean , I think you {disfmarker} uh , that the key thing there is that this is a description of database collection effort that they 're talking about doing .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: And if the database exists and includes some visual information that doesn't mean that an individual researcher is going to make any use of it . Right ?
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: So , uh {disfmarker}
Grad G: But that {disfmarker} it 's gonna be a lot of effort on our part to create it , and store it , and get all the standards , and to do anything with it .
Professor D: Right . So we 're gonna {disfmarker} So we 're gonna do what we 're gonna do , whatever 's reasonable for us .
Grad G: Yeah .
PhD B: I think even doing something very crude {disfmarker}
Professor D: But having {disfmarker}
PhD B: Like I know with ATIS , we just had a tape recorder running all the time .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And later on it turned out it was really good that you had a tape recorder of what was happening , even though you w you just got the speech from the machine . So if you can find some really , you know , low , uh , perplexity ,
Grad G: Low fidelity .
PhD B: yeah , {comment} way of {disfmarker} of doing that , I think it would be worthwhile .
Grad G: Yeah .
Postdoc H: I agree . And if it 's simple as {disfmarker} I mean , as simple as just the digital {disfmarker}
PhD B: Otherwise you 'd {disfmarker} you lose it .
Professor D: Well , minimally , I mean , what {disfmarker} what Dan is referring to at least having some representation of the p the spatial position of the people ,
Postdoc H: Yeah .
Professor D: cuz we are interested in some spatial processing .
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: And so {disfmarker}
Grad G: Right .
Professor D: so , um {disfmarker}
Grad G: Well , once the room is a little more fixed that 's a little easier
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad G: cuz you 'll {disfmarker}
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad G: Well , the wireless .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad G: But {disfmarker}
PhD B: Also CMU has been doing this and they were the most vocal at this meeting , Alex Waibel 's group . And they have {pause} said , I talked to the student who had done this , {comment} that with two fairly inexpensive cameras they {disfmarker} they just recorded all the time
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: and were able to get all the information from {disfmarker} or maybe it was three {disfmarker} from all the parts of the room . So I think we would be {disfmarker} we might lose the chance to use this data for somebody later who wants to do some kind of processing on it if we don't collect it {comment} at all .
Grad G: Yeah . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't disagree . I think that if you have that , then people who are interested in vision can use this database . The problem with it is you 'll have more people who don't want to be filmed than who don't want to be recorded .
Professor C: Mmm .
Grad G: So that there 's going to be another group of people who are gonna say " I won't participate " .
Postdoc H: Well , she 's not {pause} making {disfmarker}
Professor C: That 's true .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Or you could put a paper bag over everybody 's head
Grad G: Um {disfmarker}
PhD B: and not look at each other and not look at boards , and just all be sitting {vocalsound} talking .
Professor D: Uh - huh .
PhD B: That would be an interes {vocalsound} Bu
Postdoc H: Well {disfmarker}
Professor D: Great idea .
Postdoc H: Well , there 's {disfmarker} that 'd be the {disfmarker} the parallel , yeah . But I think y she 's {disfmarker} we 're just proposing {pause} a minimal preservation of things on boards ,
PhD B: Yeah . I definitely won't participate if there 's a camera .
Postdoc H: sp spatial organization {disfmarker} And you could anonymize the faces for that matter . You know , I mean , this is {disfmarker}
Grad G: But , you know , that 's a lot of infrastructure and work .
Postdoc H: We can talk about the {disfmarker}
Grad G: To set it up and then anonymize it ?
Postdoc H: It 's just one snapshot .
PhD B: No , it wa n not , um {disfmarker}
Professor A: No , no , no , no .
Postdoc H: We 're not talking about a movie .
Professor A: So {disfmarker}
PhD B: Not for {disfmarker} not for CMU .
Postdoc H: We 're talking about a snapshot .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: They have a pretty crude set - up . And they had {disfmarker}
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc H: Yeah .
PhD B: they just turn on these cameras . They were {disfmarker} they were not moving or anything .
Grad G: Couldn't find it ?
PhD B: And stored it on analog media .
Grad G: Hmm ?
Postdoc H: Hmm .
PhD B: And they {disfmarker} they didn't actually align it or anything . They just {disfmarker} they have it , though .
Postdoc H: Yeah . Well , it 's worth considering . Maybe we don't want to {disfmarker} spend that much more time discussing it ,
PhD F: Did they store it digitally , or {disfmarker} ?
Postdoc H: but {disfmarker}
PhD B: Hmm - mm . I think they just {disfmarker}
PhD F: or just put it on videotape ?
PhD B: I think they just had the videotapes with a c you know , a counter or something . Um ,
Professor D: Mm - hmm . Well , I think for {disfmarker} I mean , for our purposes we probably will d
PhD B: I 'm not sure .
Professor D: we {disfmarker} we might try that some and {disfmarker} and we certainly already have some recordings that don't have that , uh , which , you know , we we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll get other value out of , I think .
Postdoc H: Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah .
Postdoc H: Th The thing is , if it 's easy to collect it {disfmarker} it th then I think it 's a wise thing to do because once it 's gone it 's gone . And {disfmarker}
PhD B: I 'm just {disfmarker} The community {disfmarker} If LDC collects this data {disfmarker} u I mean , and L - if Mark Liberman is a strong proponent of how they collect it and what they collect , there will probably be some video data in there .
Professor D: There you go .
PhD B: And so that could argue for us not doing it or it could argue for us doing it . The only place where it sort of overlaps is when some of the summarization issues are {disfmarker} actually could be , um , easier {disfmarker} made easier if you had {pause} the video .
Professor D: I think at the moment we should be determining this on the basis of our own , uh , interests and needs rather than hypothetical ones from a community thing .
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: As you say , if they {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if they decide it 's really critical then they will collect a lot more data than we can afford to , uh , and {disfmarker} and will include all that .
PhD B: Mmm .
Professor D: Um ,
Professor A: e
Professor D: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm not worried about the cost of setting it up . I 'm worried about the cost of people looking at it . In other words , it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 'd be kind of silly to collect it all and not look at it at all . And so I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that we do have to do some picking and choosing of the stuff that we 're doing . But I {disfmarker} I am int I do think that we m minimally want {disfmarker} something {disfmarker} we might want to look at {disfmarker} at some {disfmarker} some , uh , subsets of that . Like for a meeting like this , at least , uh , take a Polaroid of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} of the {disfmarker} of the boards ,
PhD B: Of the board .
Postdoc H: Yeah .
PhD B: Or at least make sure that the note - taker takes a sh you know , a snapshot of the board .
Professor D: and {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: Exactly .
Professor D: a and know the position of the people {disfmarker}
PhD B: That 'll make it a lot easier for meetings that are structured .
Postdoc H: Exactly .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: I mean , otherwise later on if nobody wrote this stuff on the board down we 'd have a harder time summarizing it or agreeing on a summary .
Postdoc H: We {disfmarker} And it {disfmarker} Especially since this is common knowledge . I mean , this is shared knowledge among all the participants , and it 's a shame to keep it off the recording .
Grad G: Uh , except in {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: s
Grad G: er , if we weren't recording this , this {disfmarker} this would get lost . Right ?
Professor D: Yeah .
Postdoc H: Well , I don't understand that point . I mean , I just think that the {disfmarker}
Grad G: The point is that we 're not saving it anyway . Right ? In {disfmarker} in {pause} our real - life setting .
Postdoc H: Well {disfmarker}
Professor A: What do you mean we 're not saving it anyway ? I 've written all of this down and it 's getting emailed to you .
Professor C: And you 're gonna send it out by email , too .
Grad G: Well , uh , in that case we don't need to take pictures of it .
PhD B: Right . That would be the other alternative , to make sure that anything that was on the board , um , is in the record .
Professor A: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah .
Postdoc H: Well {disfmarker}
Professor A: Well , that 's why {disfmarker} that 's why I 'm saying that I think the note - taking would be {disfmarker} I think in many {disfmarker} for many meetings there will be some sort of note - taking , in which case , that 's a useful thing to have {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , we {disfmarker} uh , we don't need to require it . Just like the {disfmarker}
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: I mean , I think it would be great if we try to get a picture with every meeting . Um ,
Postdoc H: I agree .
Professor A: so {disfmarker} so we won't worry about requiring these things , but the more things that we can get it for , the more useful it will be for various applications . So .
Professor D: So {disfmarker} So , I mean , departing for the moment from the data collection question but actually talking about , you know , this group and what we actually want to do , uh , so I guess that 's th the way {disfmarker} what you were figuring on doing was {disfmarker} was {disfmarker} was , uh , putting together some notes and sending them to {disfmarker} to everybody from {disfmarker} from today ? OK . So . Um {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: That 's great .
Professor D: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} so the question {comment} that {disfmarker} that we started with was whether there was anything else we should do during {disfmarker} during th during the collection .
PhD B: Ow .
Professor D: And I guess the CrossPads was certainly one idea , uh , and we 'll get them from him and we 'll just do that . Right ? And then the next thing we talked about was the {disfmarker} was the summaries and are we gonna do anything about that .
Professor A: Well , before we leave the CrossPads and {disfmarker} and call it done .
Professor D: Oh , OK .
Professor A: So , if I 'm collecting data then there is this question of do I use CrossPads ?
Professor D: Yeah .
Professor A: So , I think that if we really seriously have me collect data and I can't use CrossPads , it 's probably less useful for you guys to go to the trouble of using it , um , unless you think that the CrossPads are gonna {disfmarker} n I 'm not {disfmarker} I 'm not sure what they 're gonna do . But {disfmarker} but having a small percentage of the data with it , I 'm not sure whether that 's useful or not . Maybe {disfmarker} maybe it 's no big deal .
Professor D: What {disfmarker}
Professor A: Maybe we just do it and see what happens .
Professor D: I guess the point was to try {disfmarker} again , to try to collect more information that could be useful later for {disfmarker} for the UI stuff .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: So it 's sort of Landay supplying it so that Landay 's stuff can be easier to do .
Professor A: Right .
Professor D: So it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} Right now he 's g operating from zero ,
Professor A: Nothing .
Professor D: and so even if we didn't get it done from UW , it seems like that would {disfmarker} could still {disfmarker} You shou
Professor A: OK .
Professor D: I mean , at least try it .
PhD B: I think it 'd be useful to have a small amount of it just as a proof of concept .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD B: It will {disfmarker}
Professor A: Right . OK .
PhD B: You know , what you can do with things .
Grad G: And {disfmarker} and they seem to {pause} not be able to give enough of them away , so we could probably get more as well .
PhD B: Yeah . But not {disfmarker} not to rely on them for {pause} basic modeling .
Professor A: That 's true . So if it {disfmarker} if it seems to be really useful to you guys , we could probably get a donation to me .
Grad G: Yeah , I 'm not sure . I think it it {disfmarker} it will again depend on Landay , and if he has a student who 's interested , and how much infrastructure we 'll need . I mean , if it 's easy , we can just do it .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad G: Um , but if it requires a lot of our time , we probably won't do it .
Professor A: Right .
Professor D: I guess a lot of the stuff we 're doing now really is pilot in one sense or another .
Grad G: Yeah . Yeah , we have to sort of figure out what we 're gonna do .
Professor D: And so we try it out and see how it works .
Grad G: Right .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD B: I just wouldn't base any of the modeling on having those .
Professor A: Right .
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad G: Right . I ag I think I agree with that .
PhD B: It 's just {disfmarker}
Professor A: Right . OK .
Grad G: I think , though , the importance marking is a {pause} good idea , though . That if {disfmarker} if people have something in front of them {disfmarker}
PhD B: I 'd be sort of cool . I mean , it would {disfmarker} Yeah . That w shouldn't be hard for {disfmarker}
Grad G: Yeah . Do it on pilots or laptops or something . OK , if something 's important everyone clap .
Professor A: OK . So CrossPads , we 're just gonna try it and see what happens .
Professor D: OK .
Grad G: Yeah . Um , I think that 's right .
Professor A: OK .
Professor D: OK .
Professor A: The note - taking {disfmarker} So , I {disfmarker} I think that this is gonna be useful . So if we record data I will definitely ask for it . So , I j I think we should just say this is not {disfmarker} we don't want to put any extra burden on people , but if they happen to generate minutes , could {disfmarker} could they send it to us ?
Grad G: Yeah . Oh , OK . That 's fine . Absolutely .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: And then {disfmarker}
Grad G: Yeah . What I was gonna say is that I don't want to ask people to do something they wouldn't normally do in a meeting . It 's ver I just want to keep away from the artificiality .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: But I think it {pause} definitely if they exist . And then Jane 's idea of summarization afterward I think is not a bad one . Um , picking out {disfmarker} basically to let you pick out keywords , um , and , uh , construct queries .
Professor D: So who {disfmarker} who does this summarization ?
Postdoc H: Yeah , I 'm thinking that {disfmarker}
Grad G: People in the meeting .
Postdoc H: Yeah .
Grad G: You know , just at {disfmarker} at the end of the meeting , before you go ,
Postdoc H: Uh - huh .
PhD B: Without hearing each other though , probably .
Grad G: go around the table .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD F: Or even just have one or two people stay behind .
Grad G: Yeah . Ugh . Yeah .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD E: People with radio mikes can go into separate rooms and continue recording without hearing each other . That 's the nice thing .
PhD B: Well , then you should try them a few weeks later
Postdoc H: How fascinating .
PhD B: and {disfmarker} They have all these memory experiments about how little you actually retain
Grad G: And see {disfmarker} score them ?
PhD E: That 's right . Well , that 's the interesting thing , though .
PhD B: and wasn't {disfmarker}
PhD E: If we do {disfmarker} if we collect four different summaries , you know , we 're gonna get all this weird data about how people perceive things differently .
Grad G: Oh .
PhD E: It 's like {comment} this is not what we meant to research .
Grad G: Hmm .
PhD B: Right , right .
Professor D: Oh . Yeah .
Postdoc H: That could be very interesting .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Hmm .
Postdoc H: Yeah .
Professor A: But {disfmarker} but again , like the CrossPads , I don't think I would base a lot of stuff on it ,
Professor D: Ru
Grad G: I d yeah , I don't know how you would do it , though .
Professor A: because I think {disfmarker} I know when I see the {disfmarker} the clock coming near the end of the meeting , I 'm like inching towards the door .
Grad G: Mm - hmm . Running to {disfmarker} Yeah ,
Professor A: So ,
Grad G: fff !
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor A: you 're probably not gonna get {pause} a lot of people wanting to do this .
Grad G: Maybe e Is email easier ?
Postdoc H: Well , I think if {disfmarker}
Grad G: I mean , I {disfmarker} when you first said do {disfmarker} do it , um , spoken , what I was thinking is , oh then people have to come up
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: and you have to hook them up to the recorder . So , if they 're already here I think that 's good ,
Professor A: Right .
Grad G: but if they 're not already here for {disfmarker} I 'd rather do email . I 'm much faster typing than anything else .
Postdoc H: Yeah , I 'd just try {disfmarker} Well , however the least intrusive and {disfmarker} and quickest way is , and th and closest to the meeting time too , cuz people will start to forget it as soon as they l leave .
Grad G: Yeah .
Professor A: Yeah . I think that {disfmarker} I think doing it orally at the end of the meeting is the best time .
Grad G: I don't know . At {disfmarker}
Professor A: I just don't {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: because they 're kind of a captive audience . Once they leave ,
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: you know , forget it . But {disfmarker} but i
Grad G: Yeah , read the digits , do the summary .
Professor A: Right . But , uh , I don't think that they 'll necessarily {disfmarker} you 'll {disfmarker} you 'll get many people willing to stay .
Professor D: Hmm .
Professor A: But , you know , if you get even one {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: w
Professor D: Well , I think it 's like the note - taking thing ,
Postdoc H: I would s Yeah .
Professor D: that {disfmarker} that y that you can't {disfmarker} certainly can't require it or people aren't gonna want to do this . But {disfmarker} but if there 's some cases where they will , then it would be helpful .
PhD F: Hmm .
Postdoc H: And I 'm also wondering , couldn't that be included in the data sample so that you could increase the num you know , the words that are , uh , recognized by a particular individual ? If you could include the person 's meeting stuff and also the person 's summary stuff , maybe that would be uh ,
PhD E: Yeah . It 's kind of nice .
Postdoc H: an ad addition to their database .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: Hmm .
Postdoc H: Under the same acoustic circumstance , cuz if they just walk next door with their set - up , nothing 's changed ,
PhD E: Right .
Postdoc H: just {disfmarker}
PhD F: So I have a question about queries ,
Grad G: God , that 's bugging me .
PhD F: which is , um ,
Grad G: Can we turn that light off ?
Postdoc H: You turn {disfmarker}
PhD F: uh {disfmarker}
Grad G: If {disfmarker} can we turn that just {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that let {disfmarker}
Professor D: The fl the fluorescent light is flickering .
Postdoc H: Uh , let the record show the light is flickering .
PhD F: I don't know .
Professor A: Yeah .
Grad G: Yeah , there 's a {disfmarker}
PhD B: Oh , it is {disfmarker} it is like {disfmarker} OK .
Professor D: Yeah .
Professor A: Yeah .
Grad G: Very annoying .
PhD F: There you go . OK .
Grad G: Oh , much better .
Professor A: For a little while I thought it was just that I was really tired .
Professor C: Oh , yeah .
Professor D: Yeah .
Professor C: That 's better .
PhD F: Good .
Professor A: That and y {comment} Too much caffeine and really tired ,
Grad G: Too much caffeine .
Professor A: but then I thought " no , maybe that 's real " .
Professor D: OK .
PhD F: So ,
Grad G: I thought it was the projector for a moment . It was like , " what 's going on ? "
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD F: the question I had about queries was , um , so what we 're planning to do is have people look at the summaries and then generate queries ? Are {disfmarker} are we gonna try and o
Grad G: We {disfmarker} we 've just been talking , how do we generate queries ?
PhD F: Yeah . Well , I mean ,
Grad G: And so that was one suggestion .
PhD F: so , the question I had is is have we given any thought to how we would generate queries automatically given a summary ? I mean , I think that 's a whole research topic un unto itself ,
Professor D: Mmm .
PhD F: so that it may not be a feasible thing . But {disfmarker}
PhD E: Hello . Dan here .
PhD F: n
PhD B: Shouldn't Landay and his group be in charge of figuring out how to do this ?
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD B: I mean , this is an issue that goes a little bit beyond where {pause} we are right now .
PhD E: OK .
PhD B: They 're the expert
PhD E: Mari ?
Professor A: Yeah ?
PhD E: Someone wants to know when you 're getting picked up . Is someone picking you up ?
Professor A: Um , {vocalsound} what 's our schedule ?
Professor D: Well , you still wanted to talk with Liz .
Professor A: Let 's see , you and I need dis Uh , no , we did the Liz talk .
Professor D: And you and I need to Oh , oh . You already did the Liz talk .
Professor A: Yeah . So {disfmarker} so that was the prosody thing .
Professor D: OK .
PhD B: We - {vocalsound} I don't remember it .
Professor A: Um , we need to finish the {disfmarker}
Professor D: Oh , OK .
Professor A: It 's already four - fifteen .
PhD B: I have like no recall memory .
Professor A: Uh , after .
Professor D: Yeah .
Professor A: We need to {pause} finish this discussion , and you and I need a little time for wrap - up and quad chart . So ,
Grad G: And what ?
Professor A: um {disfmarker}
Professor D: I 'm at your disposal . So , up to you .
Professor A: Um , what {disfmarker} what 's the plan for this discussion ? We should {disfmarker}
Professor D: Um , I think we should be able to wind up in another half - hour or something , you think ?
Grad G: At least . Yeah .
Professor A: Uh , less .
Grad G: m i Even if that much ?
Professor A: Yeah .
Professor D: Less ?
Grad G: Less .
Professor A: So , I think {disfmarker}
PhD B: It 's interesting that he 's got , like , {pause} this discussion free
Professor D: Well , I mean , we still haven't talked about the action items from here and so on .
Professor A: Action {disfmarker} Yeah . So ,
PhD B: yet it 's separate .
Professor D: And {disfmarker}
Professor A: e e why don't you say five - thirty ? I don't {disfmarker}
PhD E: OK , five - thirty .
Professor A: Is that OK ? We 'll probably hit horrible traffic .
PhD E: Sounds {disfmarker} OK . h Thanks , bye .
Professor A: That 's not a lot of time ,
PhD E: That 's that .
Professor A: but {disfmarker}
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad G: Well , in answer to " is it Landay 's problem ? " , um , he doesn't have a student who 's interested right now in doing anything . So he has very little manpower . Um , there 's very little allocated for him and also he 's pretty focused on user interface . So I don't think he wants to do information retrieval , query generation , that sort of stuff .
Professor D: Yeah , well there 's gonna be these student projects that can do some things but it can't be , yeah , very deep . u I {disfmarker} I actually think that {disfmarker} that , uh , again , just as a bootstrap , {comment} if we do have something like summaries , then having the people who are involved in the meetings themselves , who are cooperative and willing to do yet more , come up with {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} with queries , uh , could at least give {disfmarker} give Landay an idea of the kind of things that people might want to know . I mean , ye Right ? If he doesn't know anything about the area , and {disfmarker} the people are talking about and {disfmarker} and , uh {disfmarker}
PhD B: But the people will just look at the summaries or the minutes and re and sort of back - generate the queries . That 's what I 'm worried about . So you might as well just give him the summaries .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And {disfmarker}
Professor D: Maybe .
PhD F: Well , I 'm not sure {disfmarker} I 'm not sure that 's a solved problem .
Grad G: y Well , but I think {disfmarker}
PhD B: Oh , OK .
PhD F: Right ? Of how to {disfmarker} how to generate queries from a {disfmarker}
PhD B: How to do this from the summary .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad G: I , uh {disfmarker}
PhD F: That was sort of what my {pause} question was {pause} aimed towards .
PhD B: So what you want to h to do is , people who were there , who later see , uh , minutes and s put in summary form , which is not gonna be at the same time as the meeting . There 's no way that can happen . Are we gonna later go over it
Professor A: Hmm .
Professor D: Right .
Grad G: Right .
PhD B: and , like , make up some stuff to which these notes would be an answer , or {disfmarker} or a deeper {disfmarker} Yeah . I mean {disfmarker}
Grad G: Or {disfmarker} or just a memory refresher .
PhD B: But that 's done off {disfmarker} they have to do that off - line .
Grad G: Yep . I agree .
PhD B: You
Postdoc H: I 'm also wondering if we could ask the {disfmarker} the people a {disfmarker} a question which would be " what was the most interesting thing you got out of this meeting ? " Becau - in terms of like informativeness ,
PhD B: That 's a good one .
Postdoc H: it might be , you know , that the summary would {disfmarker} would not in even include what the person thought was the most interesting fact .
Professor D: I would think that would be the most likely thing .
PhD B: Dan doesn't know what sex he is .
PhD E: Yeah , really .
Professor A: But actually I would say that 's a better thing to ask than have them summarize the meeting .
Postdoc H: I think you get two different types of information .
Professor A: You get two {disfmarker} Yeah , that 's true .
PhD E: Yeah .
Postdoc H: Because you get , like , the general structure of important points and what the {disfmarker} what the meeting was about .
Professor D: Hey .
PhD B: Ah
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad G: We 're still here .
Postdoc H: So you get the general structure , the important points of what the meeting was about {pause} with the summary . But with the " what 's the most interesting thing you learned ? " {disfmarker} Uh , so the fact that , uh , I know that Transcriber uses Snack is something that I thought was interesting
PhD B: Going to see the kids .
PhD E: You {disfmarker} you can keep it on .
Postdoc H: and that {disfmarker} and that Dan worked on {disfmarker} on that . So I thought that was really {disfmarker} you know . So , I mean , you could ge pick up some of the micro items that wouldn't even occur as major headings
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc H: but could be very informative .
Professor A: Yeah , that 's actually a really good idea .
Postdoc H: I think it wouldn't be too , uh , uh , cost - intensive either . You know , I mean , it 's like something someone can do pretty easily on the spur of the moment .
Professor C: Are you thinking about just asking one participant or all of them ?
Grad G: As many are willing to do it .
Professor C: Make it a voluntary thing ,
PhD E: Yeah . Cuz you 'll get {disfmarker} cuz you 'll get very different answers from everybody , right ?
Professor C: and then {disfmarker} Yeah . That 's why I was wondering .
PhD E: So {disfmarker}
Grad G: Well , maybe one thing we could do is for the meetings we 've already done {disfmarker} I mean , I {disfmarker} we didn't take minutes and we don't have summaries . But , uh , people could , like , listen to them a little bit and {pause} generate some queries .
Postdoc H: Yeah .
Grad G: Of course Jane doesn't need to . I 'm sure you have that meeting memorized by now .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: But actually it would be an easy thing to just go around the room and say {pause} what was the most interesting thing you learned ,
Grad G: Mmm .
Postdoc H: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor A: for those pe people willing to stay .
Postdoc H: And that {disfmarker} I think it would pick up the micro - structure , the {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} some of the little things that would be hidden .
Professor A: And {disfmarker} and that might be something people are willing to stay for .
Professor D: Boy , I {disfmarker} I don't know how we get at this {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: That would be interesting .
Professor C: Yeah , but when you go around the room you might just get the effect that somebody says something
Grad G: Or want to get up and leave .
Professor C: and then you go around the room and they say " yeah , me too , I agree . "
Grad G: Me too , me too , me too .
Professor D: Yeah .
Professor A: That 's fine .
Professor C: So {disfmarker}
PhD E: On the other hand people might try and come up with different ones , right ?
Professor D: Well {disfmarker}
PhD E: They might say " oh , I was gonna say that one but now I have to think of something else " .
Grad G: Well , you have the other thing , that {disfmarker} that they know why we 're doing it . We 'll {disfmarker} I mean , we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll be telling them that the reason we 're trying to do this is {disfmarker} is to d generate queries in the future , so try to pick things that other people didn't say .
Professor D: It 's gonna take some thought . I mean , It seemed {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The kind of , uh , interest that I had in this thing initially was , uh , that i basically the form that you 're doing something else {pause} later ,
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: and you want to pick up something from this meeting related to the something else . So it 's really the imp the {disfmarker} the list of what 's important 's in the something else
Professor A: Right .
Professor D: rather than the {disfmarker}
PhD E: Mmm .
Professor D: And it might be something minor {disfmarker} of minor importance to the meeting .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: Right .
Professor D: Uh , in fact if {disfmarker} if it was really major , if it 's the thing that really stuck in your head , then you might not need to go back and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and check on it even . So it 's {disfmarker} it 's that you 're trying to find {disfmarker} {comment} You 're {disfmarker} you 've now {disfmarker} You weren't interested {disfmarker} Say I {disfmarker} I said " well , I wasn't that much interested in dialogue , I 'm more of an acoustics person " .
PhD E: Right .
Professor D: But {disfmarker} but thr three months from now if for some reason I get really interested in dialogue , and I 'm " well what is {disfmarker} what was that part that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that , uh , Mari was saying ? "
Grad G: Yeah , like Jim Bass says " add a few lines on dialogue in your next perf "
Professor A: Uh {disfmarker}
Professor D: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor A: Yeah .
Professor D: And then I 'm trying to fi I mean , that 's {disfmarker} that 's when I look {disfmarker} in general when I look things up most , is when it 's something that {vocalsound} didn't really stick in my head the first time around and {disfmarker} but for some {comment} new reason I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm interested in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in the old stuff .
Grad G: But that {disfmarker} that 's gonna be very hard to generate .
Professor A: Well , I {disfmarker} That 's hard to generate
Professor D: So , I don't {disfmarker} I don't know .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Do we {disfmarker}
Professor A: and {disfmarker} and I think that 's half of what i I would use it for . But I also a lot of times um , make {disfmarker} you know , think to myself " this is interesting ,
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: I 've gotta come back and follow up on it " .
Professor D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor A: So , things that I think are interesting , um , I would be , uh , wanting to do a query about . And also , I like the idea of going around the room , because if somebody else thought something was interesting , I 'd kind of want to know about it and then I 'd want to follow up on it .
PhD E: Hmm .
Professor D: Yeah . That {disfmarker} that might get at some of what I was {disfmarker} I was concerned about , uh , being interested in something later that w uh , I didn't consider to be important the first time , which for me is actually the dominant thing , because if I thought it was really important it tends to stick more than if I didn't , but some new {pause} task comes along that makes me want to look up .
Grad G: But {disfmarker} But what 's interesting to me may not b have been interesting to you .
Professor D: Yeah . So having multiple people might get at some of that .
Grad G: By {disfmarker} so by going around {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad G: Yeah , I {disfmarker} I think {pause} you can't get at all of it ,
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad G: right ? W we just need to start somewhere .
Professor D: Yeah , and this is a starting point .
Postdoc H: Uh - huh .
PhD F: The question {disfmarker} the question then is h h how much bias do we introduce by {disfmarker} you know , introduce by saying , you know , this was important now and , you know , maybe tha something else is important later ?
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: I mean , does it {disfmarker} does the bias matter ? I {disfmarker} I don't know . I mean , uh , that 's , I guess , a question for you guys . But {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: Well , and {disfmarker} and one thing , we {disfmarker} we 're saying " important " and we 're saying " interesting " .
PhD F: Uh , yeah , yeah .
Postdoc H: And {disfmarker} and those {disfmarker} those can be two different things .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD F: Sure , sure . But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I guess that 's the question , really , is that {disfmarker} I mean ,
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: W
PhD F: does building queries based on what 's important now introduce an irreversible bias on being able to do what Morgan wants to do later ?
Professor D: Well , irreversible .
Postdoc H: OK , good .
PhD F: That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker}
Professor D: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean , I guess what I what I {disfmarker} I keep coming back to in my own mind is that , um , the soonest we can do it , we need to get up some kind of system
Postdoc H: Yeah .
PhD F: Right .
Professor D: so that people who 've been involved in the meeting can go back later , even if it 's a poor system in some ways , and , uh {disfmarker} and ask the questions that they actually want to know . If {disfmarker} you know , if {disfmarker} uh , as soon as we can get that going at any kind of level , then I think we 'll have a much better handle on what kind of questions people want to ask than in any {disfmarker} anything we do before that . But obviously we have to bootstrap somehow ,
Professor A: Right .
Professor D: and {disfmarker}
PhD F: Sure .
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Right .
PhD F: I agree .
Postdoc H: I will say that {disfmarker} that I {disfmarker} I chose " interesting " because I think it includes also " important " in some cases . But , um , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I feel like the summary gets {pause} at a different type of information .
PhD F: I think " important " can often be uninteresting .
Professor A: Mmm .
PhD E: Mmm . And " interesting " is more interesting than " important " .
Grad G: Hmm .
Postdoc H: Well , and {disfmarker} and also {disfmarker} i it puts a lot of burden on the person to {disfmarker} to evaluate . You know , I think inter " interesting " is {disfmarker} is non - threatening in {disfmarker}
Professor A: OK - OK .
Postdoc H: Yeah .
Professor A: In the interest of , um ,
Grad G: Importance ?
Postdoc H: Yeah .
Professor A: generati {comment} generating an interesting summary , {comment} um {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor A: No , i in the interest of generating some minutes here , uh , and also moving on to action items and other things , let me just go through the things that I wrote down as being important , um , that we at least decided on . CrossPads we were going to try , um , if Landay can get the , uh {disfmarker} get them to {disfmarker} to you guys , um , and see if they 're interesting . And if they are , then we 'll try to get m do it more . Um , getting electronic summary from a note - taking person if they happen to do it anyway .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Um , getting {pause} just , uh , digital pictures {disfmarker} a couple digital pictures of the {disfmarker} the table and boards to set the context of the meeting . Uh , and then going around the room at the end to just say {disfmarker} qu ask people to mention something interesting that they learned . So rather than say the most interesting thing , something interesting ,
Postdoc H: k
Professor A: and that way you 'll get more variety .
Postdoc H: Sure .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: I wouldn't even say that " that they learned " .
Postdoc H: That 's good . I like that . I like that .
Professor A: OK .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad G: Uh , you might want to mention something that {disfmarker} that you brought up .
Professor A: " Thing {pause} that was {pause} discussed . " And then the last thing c would be for those people who are willing to stay afterwards and give an oral summary .
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: OK ? Does that pretty much cover everything we talked about ? That {disfmarker} well , that we want to do ?
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm . A And one {disfmarker} and one qualification on {disfmarker} on the oral summaries . They 'd be s they 'd be separate . They wouldn't be hearing each other 's summaries .
Professor A: OK .
Grad G: Yeah , that 's like {disfmarker} n I think that 's gonna predominantly end up being whoever {pause} takes down the equipment then .
Postdoc H: And {disfmarker} and that would also be that the data would be included in the database .
Grad G: Yeah , that would be , let 's see , me .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: I mean , there is still this hope that people might actually think of real queries they really want to ask at some point .
Postdoc H: OK .
PhD E: And that if {disfmarker} if that ever should happen , then we should try and write them down .
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Right .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: Give them a reward , a dollar a query ?
PhD E: Yeah , really .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD E: If they 're real queries .
Professor A: OK . So {disfmarker}
Professor D: Well , and again , if we can figure out a way to jimmy a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a very rough system , say in a year , then {disfmarker} uh , so that in the second and third years we {disfmarker} we actually have something to {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: Yeah .
Grad G: Yeah .
Professor A: Play with and generate real queries from .
Professor D: ask queries .
Professor A: Right . OK .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad G: Yeah .
Professor A: So . Yeah .
Professor D: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD B: I think {disfmarker} I just wanted to say one thing about queries . I mean , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} the level of the query could be , you know , very low - level or very high - level . And it gets fuzzier and fuzzier as you go up , right ?
Grad G: Well , we 're gonna {disfmarker}
PhD B: So you need to have some sort of {disfmarker} if you start working with queries , some way of identifying what the {disfmarker} you know , if this is something that requires a {disfmarker} a one - word answer or it 's one place in the recording versus was there general agreement on this issue of all the people who ha
PhD E: Hmm .
PhD B: You know , you can gen you can ask queries that are meaningful for people .
Grad G: Yep .
PhD B: In fact , they 're very meaningful cuz they 're very high - level . But they won't exist anywhere in the {pause} a you know {disfmarker}
Grad G: Absolutely . So I think we 're gonna have to start with keywords
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: and {disfmarker} and if someone becomes more interested we could work our way up .
Professor D: I I 'm {disfmarker} I I 'm not so sure I agree with that .
PhD B: It {disfmarker} But it may well {disfmarker}
Grad G: But {disfmarker}
Professor D: Because {disfmarker} uh , b because it depends on , uh , what our goal is .
Grad G: Really ?
Professor D: If our goal is Wizard of Oz - ish , we might want to know what is it that people would really like to know about this data .
Grad G: Oh , that 's true .
Professor D: And if it 's {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if it 's something that we don't know how to do yet , th great ,
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: Right .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor D: that 's , you know , research project for year four or something .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Research , yeah .
Professor D: You know ?
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: Yeah , I was thinking about Wizard of Oz , but it requires the wizard to know all about the meetings .
PhD E: We 'd have to listen to all the data .
Professor D: Um , well , not {disfmarker} maybe not true Wizard of Oz
Grad G: So .
Professor D: because people are too
Grad G: Oh , yeah . I {disfmarker} I understand .
Professor D: uh , aware of what 's going on .
PhD E: Well just imagine if {disfmarker}
Professor D: But {disfmarker} but just {disfmarker}
PhD E: Get people to ask questions that they def the machine definitely can't answer at the moment ,
Professor D: Yeah . w Just " what would you like to know ? "
PhD E: but {disfmarker}
Grad G: Yep .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad G: But that {disfmarker} neither could anyone else , though , is what , uh , my point is .
PhD E: Yes .
Postdoc H: I I was wondering if {disfmarker} if there might be one s more source of queries which is indicator phrases like " action item " ,
Professor A: OK .
Postdoc H: which could be obtained from the text {disfmarker} from the transcript .
Grad G: Right . Since we have the transcript .
Postdoc H: Yeah .
Grad G: Dates maybe . I don't know . That 's something I always forget .
Postdoc H: Yeah , that 's something to be determined , something to be specified ,
PhD B: Well , probably if you have to sit there at the end of a meeting and say one thing you remember , it 's probably whatever action item was assigned to you .
Postdoc H: but text - oriented .
PhD B: I mean , in gen that 's all I remember from most meetings .
Grad G: That {disfmarker} that 's all I wrote down .
Postdoc H: I think you 'd remember that , yeah .
PhD B: So , in general , I mean , that could be something you could say , right ? I 'm supposed to {pause} do this . It {disfmarker} it doesn't {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: Yeah , that 's true . Well , but then you could {disfmarker} you could prompt them to say , you know , " other than your action item " , you know , whatever .
PhD E: Well {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: But {disfmarker} but the action item would be a way to get , uh , maybe an additional query .
PhD B: I mean , that 's realistically what people might {pause} well be remembering .
Postdoc H: So .
PhD B: So .
Professor D: Hmm .
Postdoc H: Yeah . Well , but {disfmarker} you know , but you could get again @ @ {disfmarker}
Professor A: Well , we 're piloting . We 'll just do it and see what happens .
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor D: Yeah .
Postdoc H: Yeah .
Professor D: I usually don't remember my action items . But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I 'd {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}
Professor A: OK - OK . Speaking of action items , can we move on to action items ?
Professor D: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Grad G: Sure . Can you hand me my note pad ?
Postdoc H: Yeah . yeah .
Professor A: Um , or maybe we should wait until the summary of this {disfmarker} until this meeting is transcribed and then we will hav
Professor D: We {disfmarker} we had {disfmarker} I mean ,
PhD E: Yeah . Then we 'll know .
Grad G: Thanks .
Professor D: somewhere up there we had milestones , but I guess {disfmarker} Did y did you get enough milestone , uh , from the description things ?
Professor A: I got {disfmarker} Yeah . In fact , why don't you hand me those transparencies so that I remember to take them . eee ,
Professor D: OK .
Professor A: OK .
Professor D: And , you know , there 's obviously {pause} detail behind each of those , as much as is needed . So , you just have to {pause} let us know .
Professor A: OK . What I have down for action items is we 're supposed to find out about our human subject , um , {vocalsound} requirements .
Postdoc H: Good .
Professor A: Uh ,
Grad G: Yep .
Professor A: people are supposed to send me U R for their {disfmarker} for web pages , to c and I 'll put together an overall cover . And you 're s
PhD E: Right . We {disfmarker}
Professor A: Hmm ?
PhD E: we need to look at our web page
Professor A: And {disfmarker} and you also need to look at your web page
PhD E: and make one that 's {disfmarker} that 's p
Professor A: and clean it up by mid - July .
PhD E: PDA - free .
Grad G: Right .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: Um ,
Professor D: Right .
Professor A: let 's see . Choo - choo - choo . We {disfmarker}
Grad G: Mailing lists .
Professor A: Mailing list ? Uh , you need to put together a mailing list .
Professor D: Three of them .
Professor A: Uh , I think w
Professor D: Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean ,
Professor A: Yeah .
Professor D: uh ,
Professor A: Um ,
Professor D: mostly together .
Professor A: uh , I need to email Adam or Jane , um , about getting the data . Who should I email ?
Grad G: Uh , how quickly do you want it ?
Professor A: Um .
Grad G: My July is really very crowded . And so , uh {disfmarker}
Professor A: How about if I just c Uh , Right now all I want {disfmarker} I personally only want text data . I think the only thing Jeff would do anything with right now {disfmarker} But I 'm just speaking fr based on a conversation with him two weeks ago I had in Turkey . But I think all he would want is the digits . Um , but I 'll just speak for myself . I 'm interested in getting the language model data . Eh , so I 'm just interested in getting transcriptions .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: So then just email you ?
Postdoc H: OK . So y Sure , sure , sure .
Professor A: OK .
Professor D: Wh
Postdoc H: You could email to both of us , uh , just {disfmarker} I mean , if you wanted to .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc H: I mean , I don't think either of us would mind recei
Professor A: OK .
Professor D: i
Grad G: That 's right .
Postdoc H: but {disfmarker} but in any case I 'd be happy to send you the {disfmarker}
Professor A: And your email is ?
Professor D: i
Postdoc H: Edwards at ICSI .
Professor A: OK .
Professor D: w
Grad G: Dot Berkeley dot EDU , of course .
Professor A: And then {disfmarker}
Professor D: In {disfmarker} in our phone call , uh , before , we {disfmarker} we , uh {disfmarker} It turns out the way we 're gonna send the data is by , uh , And , uh {disfmarker} and then what they 're gonna do is take the CD - ROM and transfer it to analog tape and {vocalsound} give it to a transcription service , uh , that will {disfmarker}
Grad G: Oh , is this IBM ?
Professor D: Yeah .
Postdoc H: Yeah , using foot pedals
Professor D: Yeah , foot {disfmarker} foot pedals
Postdoc H: and {disfmarker}
Professor D: and {disfmarker}
Grad G: Uh , so do they {disfmarker} How are they gonna do the multi - channel ?
Professor D: See , that 's a good question .
Postdoc H: Yeah . They {disfmarker} they don't have a way .
Grad G: I thought so .
Professor D: No , I mean , it 'll be
Postdoc H: But they have a verification .
Professor D: probably about like you did ,
Grad G: Mix ?
Professor D: and then there will be some things {disfmarker} you know , many things that don't work out well . And that 'll go back to IBM and they 'll {disfmarker} they 'll , uh {disfmarker} they run their aligner on it and it kicks out things that don't work well , which {disfmarker} you know , the overlaps will certainly be examples of that . And , uh {disfmarker} I mean , what w we will give them all of it . Right ?
Grad G: OK . That 's , uh , my question .
Professor D: We 'll give them all the {disfmarker} the multi - channel stuff
Grad G: So we 'll give them all sixteen channels
Professor D: and {disfmarker}
Grad G: and they 'll do whatever they want with it .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD B: But you also should probably give them the mixed {disfmarker} You know , equal sound - level {disfmarker}
Professor D: Yeah . {vocalsound} Good idea .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: I mean , they 're not gonna easily be able to do that , probably .
Grad G: It 's not hard .
Professor D: Well {disfmarker}
PhD B: Ah , yeah .
Grad G: So .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: It 's also won't be adding much to the data to give them the mixed .
PhD F: But w
PhD B: I
PhD F: It 's not {disfmarker}
Professor A: Right .
PhD F: Right . It doesn't {disfmarker} it isn't difficult for us to do ,
Grad G: Yep . Absolutely .
PhD B: i You should {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD F: so we might as well just do it .
PhD B: You should {disfmarker} that may be all that they want to send off to their {pause} transcribers .
Grad G: Absolutely . So , sure .
Professor A: OK . Related to {disfmarker} to the conversation with Picheny , I need to email him , uh , my shipping address and you need to email them something which you already did .
Postdoc H: I did . I {disfmarker} I m emailed them the Transcriber URL , um , the on - line , uh , data that Adam set up , The URL so they can click on an utterance and hear it . and I emailed them the str streamlined conventions which you got a copy of today .
Professor D: Right . And I was gonna m email them the {disfmarker} which I haven't yet , a pointer to {disfmarker} to the web pages that we {disfmarker} that we currently have , cuz in particular they want to see the one with the {disfmarker} the way the recording room is set up
Postdoc H: Good .
Professor D: and so on , your {disfmarker} your page on that .
Postdoc H: Oh , excellent . Good .
Grad G: And then p possibly {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: I C - I CC ' ed Morgan . I should have sent {disfmarker} I should have CC ' ed you as well .
Professor A: OK .
Grad G: Not an immediate action item but something we do have to worry about is data formats for {disfmarker} for higher - level information .
Professor A: OK .
Professor D: Oh , yeah . We were gonna {disfmarker}
Grad G: Well , or d or not even higher level , different level , prosody and all that sort of stuff . We 're gonna have to figure out how we 're gonna annotate that .
Professor A: Yeah . We never had our data format discussion .
Professor D: Yeah , we w Right .
Postdoc H: Oh , I thought we did . We discussed , uh , musi musical score notation
Professor A: Oh , OK .
Grad G: But that 's not {disfmarker} That 's display .
Postdoc H: and {disfmarker} and its XML {disfmarker}
Grad G: That 's different than format .
Professor A: That 's {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: Well , um {disfmarker}
Professor A: W My {disfmarker} my u feeling right now on format is you guys have been doing all the work
PhD E: Well {disfmarker} uh , yeah .
Professor A: and whatever you want , we 're happy to live with .
Postdoc H: Yeah .
Professor A: Um ,
Postdoc H: OK , excellent .
Professor A: other people may not agree with that ,
Professor D: OK . So , what n important thing {disfmarker}
Professor A: but {disfmarker} Cuz I 'm not actually touching the data ,
Postdoc H: Well , it c
PhD E: Right .
Professor A: so I shouldn't be the one to talk . But {disfmarker}
Professor C: No , I think that 's fine .
Professor D: So a key thing will be that you {disfmarker} we tell you
Postdoc H: Great .
Professor A: Yeah .
Professor D: what it is . Uh , we also had {disfmarker}
PhD F: " Here 's a mysterious file
PhD E: Yeah .
PhD F: and {disfmarker} "
Professor D: We also had the , uh , uh {disfmarker} that we were s uh , that you were gonna get us the eight - hundred number
Professor A: Oh , yeah .
Professor D: and we 're all gonna {disfmarker} we 're gonna call up your Communicator thing and {disfmarker} and we 're gonna be good slash bad , depending on how you define it , uh , users .
Professor C: Now , something that I mentioned earlier to Mari and Liz is that it 's probably important to get as many non - technical and non - speech people as possible in order to get some realistic users . So if you could ask other people to call and use our system , that 'd be good . Cuz we don't want people who already know how to deal with dialogue systems ,
Professor A: Yeah . Or , {vocalsound} like if you have a {disfmarker}
Professor C: who know that you shouldn't hyper - articulate , for instance , and things like that .
Professor A: Or , like if you have somebody who makes your {disfmarker} your plane reservations for you ,
Professor C: So .
Professor D: Yeah .
Professor A: um , which is
Professor D: Yeah , we can do that .
Professor A: the n
Grad G: Get my parents to do it .
Professor A: Yeah . Yeah . Seriously .
Professor C: Yeah , for instance .
Professor D: Yeah .
Professor C: Your grandmother .
Professor D: Hmm .
Professor A: Yeah . e You know , it could {pause} result in some good bloopers , which is always good for presentations . So {disfmarker} Um , anyway {disfmarker}
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad G: I think my father would last through the second prompt before he hang {disfmarker} hung up .
Professor A: Mmm .
Professor D: My mother would have a very interesting conversation with it
Grad G: He would never use it .
Professor D: but it wouldn't have anything to do with the travel .
Professor A: OK . Um , other {disfmarker}
Professor D: OK .
Professor A: Let 's see , other action items . So I have the {disfmarker}
Professor D: We talked about that we 're getting the recording equipment running at UW . And so it depends , w e e e they 're {disfmarker} you know , they 're p m If that comes together within the next month , there at least will be , uh , uh , major communications between Dan and {vocalsound} UW folks
PhD E: Yeah . I mean ,
Professor A: I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm shooting to try to get it done {disfmarker} get it put together by {pause} the beginning of August .
Professor D: as to {disfmarker}
PhD E: we should talk about it , but {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: Mmm .
Professor A: So , um , you know , if
Professor D: But we have {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's pretty {disfmarker} We don't know . I mean , he {disfmarker} he s uh , he said that it was sitting in some room collecting dust
Professor A: We don't know .
Professor D: and {disfmarker} and so we don't know ,
Professor A: i It 's probably unlikely that we 'll pull this off ,
Professor D: i e
Professor A: but a at least it 's worth trying .
Grad G: Mm - hmm . What is it ?
Professor D: We don't know .
Grad G: Oh , OK .
Professor D: " Recording equipment . "
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad G: It 's a tape recorder .
Professor D: W We know it 's eight channels . Uh , we know it 's digital .
Grad G: It 's eight tape recorders .
Professor D: We don't even know if there 're microphones . So , we 'll find out .
Professor A: OK . Um , and I will email these notes {disfmarker} Um , I 'm not sure what to do about action items for the data stuff , although , then somebody {disfmarker} I guess somebody needs to tell Landay that you want the pads .
Professor D: Yeah , OK . I 'll do that .
Professor A: OK .
Professor D: Um , and he also said something about outside {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} that came up about the outside text sources , that he {disfmarker} he may have
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Oh !
Professor D: some text sources that are close enough to the sort of thing that we can play with them for a language model .
Professor C: Hmm .
PhD E: Yeah , that was {disfmarker} uh , that was {disfmarker} What he was saying was this {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} this thing that , uh , Jason had been working on finds web pages that are thematically related to what you 're talking about . Well , that 's the idea . So that that {disfmarker} that would be a source of text which is {disfmarker} supposedly got the right vocabulary .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Right .
PhD E: But it 's obviously very different material . It 's not spoken material , for instance ,
Professor D: Yeah . But it 's p it might be {disfmarker}
PhD E: so {disfmarker}
Professor A: But {disfmarker} but that 's actually what I wanna do . That 's {disfmarker} that 's what I wanna work with ,
PhD E: OK .
Professor A: is {disfmarker} is things that s the wrong material but the right da the right source .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad G: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah .
Grad G: Un - unfortunately Landay told me that Jason is not gonna be working on that anymore .
Professor A: Yeah .
Grad G: He 's switching to other stuff again .
Professor A: Yeah . He seemed {disfmarker} when I asked him if he could actually supply data , he seemed a little bit more reluctant . So , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll send him email . I 'll put it in an action item that I send him email about it . And if I get something , great . If I don't get something {disfmarker}
Grad G: Who ? Landay or Jason ?
Professor A: Landay . And , uh , um ,
Professor D: OK .
Grad G: OK .
Professor A: you know , otherwise , if you guys have any papers or {disfmarker} I could {disfmarker} I could use , uh {disfmarker} I could use your web pages . That 's what we could do . You 've got all the web pages on the Meeting Recor
Professor D: Yeah , why search for them ?
Professor A: Yeah !
Professor D: They 're {disfmarker} we know where they are .
Grad G: True .
Professor D: Yeah , that 's true .
Grad G: Absolutely .
Professor A: Oh , forget this !
PhD E: Sure .
Grad G: Well , but that 's not very much .
Professor A: I {disfmarker} One less action item . I can use what web pages there are out there on meeting recorders .
Grad G: Yep .
PhD E: Right .
Grad G: I mean , that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} Yeah . Basically what his software does is h it picks out keywords and does a Google - like search .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD E: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor D: Yeah . So we can {disfmarker} we can {disfmarker} we can do better than that .
PhD E: We can do that . Yeah .
Grad G: So you could {disfmarker}
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad G: Yeah .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: There 's {disfmarker} there 's some , uh , Carnegie Mellon stuff , right ? On {disfmarker} on meeting recording ,
Grad G: Yep .
PhD B: And Xerox .
Professor A: So , there 's {disfmarker} there 's ICSI , Xerox ,
Professor D: and {disfmarker}
PhD B: And there 's {disfmarker} You should l look under , like , intelligent environments ,
Professor D: And Xerox . Yeah .
PhD B: smart rooms ,
Grad G: Um , the " Georgia Tech Classroom Two Thousand " is a good one .
PhD B: um {disfmarker}
Professor A: CMU ,
PhD B: Right . And then {disfmarker} Right . J There 's {disfmarker} th That 's where I thought you would want to eventually be able to have a board or a camera ,
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: because of all these classroom {disfmarker}
Grad G: Well , Georgia Tech did a very elaborate instrumented room .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Yeah .
Grad G: And I want to try to stay away from that . So {disfmarker}
Professor A: OK . Great . That solves that problem . One less action item . Um {disfmarker} OK . I think that 's good enou that 's {disfmarker} that 's pretty much all I can think of .
Postdoc H: Can I ask , uh , one thing ? It relates to data {disfmarker} data collection and I {disfmarker} and I 'd {disfmarker} and we mentioned earlier today , this question of {disfmarker} um , so , um , I s I know that from {disfmarker} with the near - field mikes some of the problems that come with overlapping speech , uh , are lessened . But I wonder if {disfmarker} Uh , is that sufficient or should we consider maybe getting some data gathered in such a way that , um , u w we would c uh , p have a meeting with less overlap than would otherwise be the case ? So either by rules of participation , or whatever .
Professor A: Oh , yeah .
Postdoc H: Now , I mean , you know , it 's true , I mean , we were discussing this earlier , that depending on the task {disfmarker} so if you 've got someone giving a report you 're not gonna have as much overlap .
PhD F: Adam !
Postdoc H: But , um , i i uh , so we 're gonna have s you know , non - overlapping samples anyway . But , um , in a meeting which would otherwise be highly overlapping , is the near - field mike enough or should we have some rules of participation for some of our samples to lessen the overlap ?
Professor D: Hmm .
PhD E: turn off
Professor A: I don't think we should have rules of participation , but I think we should try to {pause} get a variety of meetings . That 's something that if we get the {disfmarker} the meeting stuff going at UW , that I probably can do more than you guys ,
Postdoc H: OK .
Professor A: cuz you guys are probably mostly going to get ICSI people here . But we can get anybody in EE , uh , over {disfmarker}
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: and {disfmarker} and possibly also some CS people , uh , over at UW . So , I think that {disfmarker} that there 's a good chance we could get more variety .
Postdoc H: OK . Just want to be sure there 's enough data to {disfmarker}
Professor A: Um ,
PhD B: They 're still gonna overlap ,
Postdoc H: OK , good .
PhD B: but {disfmarker} Mark and others have said that there 's quite a lot of found data {comment} from the discourse community that has this characteristic and also the political {disfmarker} Y you know , anything that was televised for a third party has the characteristic of not very much overlap .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Wasn - but w I think we were saying before also that the natural language group here had less overlap .
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So .
Professor D: So it also depends on the style of the group of people .
Professor A: Right .
PhD B: Like the , um , dominance relations of the people in the meeting .
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm . On the task , and the task .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Postdoc H: It 's just {disfmarker} I just wanted to {disfmarker} uh ,
Professor D: Yeah .
Postdoc H: because you know , it is true people can modify the amount of overlap that they do if {disfmarker} if they 're asked to .
Professor D: Yeah .
Postdoc H: Not {disfmarker} not entirely modify it , but lessen it if {disfmarker} if it 's desired . But if {disfmarker} if that 's sufficient data {disfmarker} I just wanted to be sure that we will not be having a lot of data which can't be processed .
Professor A: OK . So I 'm just writing here , we 're not gonna try to specify rules of interaction but we 're gonna try to get more variety by i using different {pause} groups of people
Postdoc H: Time .
Professor A: and different sizes .
Postdoc H: Fine . And I {disfmarker} you know , I {disfmarker} I know that the near f near - field mikes will take care of also the problems to s to a certain degree .
Professor A: e e Yeah . And then the other thing might be , um , uh , technical versus administrative .
Postdoc H: I just wanted to be sure .
Professor A: Cuz if I recorded some administrative meetings then that may have less overlap , because you might have more overlap when you 're doing something technical and disagreeing or whatever .
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Well , I {disfmarker} just as {disfmarker} as {disfmarker} as a contributary {disfmarker} eh , so I {disfmarker} I know that in l in legal depositions people are pr are prevented from overlapping . They 'll just say , you know {disfmarker} you know , " wait till each person is finished before you say something " . So it is possible to lessen if we wanted to . But {disfmarker} but these other factors are fine . I just wanted to raise the issue .
Professor A: Well , the reason why I didn't want to is be why I personally didn't want to {comment} is because I wanted it to be {pause} as , uh , unintrusive as possi
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor A: as you could be with these things hanging on you .
Postdoc H: Oh , yeah . Yeah , I think that 's always desired . I just want to be sure we don't {disfmarker} that we 're able to process , i u uh , you know , as much data as we can . Yeah .
Professor D: Yeah . Did they discuss any of that in the {disfmarker} the meeting they had with L Liberman ?
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: What {disfmarker}
PhD B: And there was a big division ,
Professor D: What {disfmarker} what do they {disfmarker}
PhD B: so Liberman and others {pause} were interested in a lot of found data .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD B: So there 's lots of recordings that {disfmarker} They 're not close - talk mike ,
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD B: but {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} and there 's lots of television , you know , stuff on , um , political debates and things like that , congre congressional hearings . Boring stuff like that . Um , and then the CMU folks and I were sort of on the other side in {disfmarker} cuz they had collected a lot of meetings that were sort of like this and said that those are nothing like these meetings . Um , so there 're really two different kinds of data . And , I guess we just left it as {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} that {pause} if there 's found data that can be transformed for use in speech recognition easily , then of course we would do it ,
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: but newly collected data would {disfmarker} would be natural meetings . So .
Professor D: Actually , th @ @ {comment} the CMU folk have collected a lot of data . Is that {disfmarker} is that going to be publicly available ,
PhD B: As far as I know , they h have not .
Professor D: or {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: Um , but e
Professor D: OK .
Grad G: It 's also {disfmarker} it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not near - far , right ?
PhD B: I 'm not sure . Um , if people were interested they could talk to them , but I {disfmarker} I got the feeling there was some politics involved .
Grad G: I think @ @ gonna add that to one of my action items .
PhD B: No .
Professor D: Just to check .
PhD B: I {disfmarker} I don't know .
Professor D: Yeah . W we should know what 's out there certainly .
Grad G: Yeah .
PhD B: I mean , the {disfmarker}
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad G: Cuz I had thought they 'd only done far - field ,
PhD B: I think you need to talk to Waibel and {disfmarker}
Grad G: intelligent - room sorts of things .
PhD E: Oh , really ? It 's those guys .
Grad G: I hadn't known that then {disfmarker} they 'd done any more than that .
Professor D: Oh , they only did the far - field ? I see .
Grad G: Yeah .
PhD B: But they had multiple mikes and they did do recognition , and they did do real conversations . But as far as I know they didn't offer that data to the community at this meeting .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: But that could change cuz Mark {disfmarker} you know , Mark 's really into this . We should keep in touch with him .
Professor D: Yeah . Well , once we send out {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: Yeah , I think {disfmarker}
Professor D: I mean , we still haven't sent out the first note saying " hey , this list exists " . But {disfmarker} but , uh , once we do that {disfmarker}
Professor A: Is that an action item ?
Professor D: Yeah . It 's on {disfmarker} I already added that one on my board to do that . So , uh {disfmarker} uh , hopefully everybody here is on that list . We should at least check that everybody here {disfmarker} ?
Grad G: I think everyone here is on the list .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD F: I 'm not .
Postdoc H: u e e
Grad G: I think you are .
Professor D: We haven't sent anything to the list yet .
PhD F: Oh ! OK .
Postdoc H: Yeah .
Professor D: We 're just compiling the list .
PhD F: I see .
Grad G: I {disfmarker} I added a few people who didn't {disfmarker} who I knew had to be on it even though they didn't tell me .
Professor D: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Who specifically ask not to be .
Grad G: Like Jane , for example .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad G: You are on it , aren't you ?
Postdoc H: Yeah , I am .
Professor D: Yeah .
Postdoc H: So , I w uh , just {disfmarker} just for clarification . So " found data " , they mean like established corpora of linguistics and {disfmarker} and other fields , right ?
PhD B: What they mean is stuff they don't have to fund to collect ,
Postdoc H: It sounds like such a t
PhD B: and especially good {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: Yeah , OK .
PhD B: Well , I mean , " found " has , uh , also the meaning that 's it very natural . It 's things occur without any {disfmarker} You know , the pe these people weren't wearing close - talking mikes , but they were recorded anyway , like the congressional hearings and , you know , for legal purposes or whatever .
Postdoc H: OK . But it includes like standard corpora that have been used for years in linguistics and {pause} other fields .
PhD B: Mark 's aware of those , too .
PhD E: " Hey , look what we found ! "
Postdoc H: OK .
PhD B: That would be found data because they found it {vocalsound} and it exists .
Grad G: Hmm .
Postdoc H: Exactly .
PhD E: " I found this great corpora . " Yeah .
PhD B: They didn't have to collect it . Of course it 's not " found " in the sense that at the time it was collected for the purpose .
Grad G: " Psst . {comment} Want to buy a corpora ? "
Postdoc H: Yeah . OK , OK .
PhD B: But what he means is that {disfmarker} You know , Mark was really a fan of getting as much data as possible from {disfmarker} you know , reams and reams of stuff , of broadcast stuff ,
Postdoc H: That 's interesting .
PhD B: web stuff ,
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: TV stuff , radio stuff . But he well understands that that 's very different than these {disfmarker} this type of meeting .
Grad G: It 's not the same .
PhD B: But , so what ? It 's still {disfmarker} it 's interesting for other reasons .
Postdoc H: OK . Yeah . Just wanted to know .
Professor D: So , seems like we 're winding down .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Professor D: Right ? Many {pause} ways .
PhD B: You can {pause} tell {pause} by the {pause} prosody .
PhD E: So we should go {disfmarker} go around and s
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD E: We should go around and say something interesting that happened at the meeting ?
Professor A: Oh . Yes , we should do that .
PhD B: Rrrh !
Grad G: Now , I was already thinking about it , so {disfmarker}
Professor D: Oh ! Good man .
PhD B: This is painful task .
Professor C: Hmm .
PhD B: I {disfmarker}
Grad G: So , um , I really liked the idea of {disfmarker} what I thought was interesting was the combination of the CrossPad and the speech . Especially , um , the interaction of them rather than just note - taking . So , can you {pause} determine the interesting points by who 's writing ? Can you do special gestures and so on that {disfmarker} that have , uh , special meaning to the corpora ? I really liked that .
Postdoc H: Well , I {disfmarker} I just realized there 's another category of interesting things which is that , um , I {disfmarker} I found this discussion very , uh , i this {disfmarker} this question of how you get at queries really interesting . And {disfmarker} and the {disfmarker} and I {disfmarker} and the fact that it 's sort of , uh , nebulous , what {disfmarker} what that {disfmarker} what kind of query it would be because it depends on what your purpose is . So I actually found that whole process of {disfmarker} of trying to think of what that would involve to be interesting . But that 's not really a specific fact . I just sort of thought we {disfmarker} we went around a nice discussion of the factors involved there , which I thought was worthwhile .
PhD E: I had a real revelation about taking pictures . I don't know why I didn't do this before and I regret it . So that was very interesting for me .
Postdoc H: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: Did you take pictures of the boards ?
PhD E: Not that I {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: Yeah .
PhD E: The boards aren't really related to this meeting . I mean , I will take pictures of them , but {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: That 's a good point .
Professor A: They 're related to this morning 's meeting .
PhD E: But {disfmarker}
Postdoc H: Yeah .
Grad G: To the pre previous meeting . That 's right .
PhD E: OK . Well , that 's why I 'll take pictures of them , then .
PhD F: I 'm gonna pass because I can't {disfmarker} I mean , of the {disfmarker} Jane took my answer .
Grad G: Ah !
PhD F: So .
Postdoc H: Oh .
PhD F: Um , so I 'm gonna pass for the moment but y come {disfmarker} come back to me .
PhD E: For the moment .
PhD B: Pass .
Professor A: I think {disfmarker} I think " pass " is socially acceptable . But I will say {disfmarker} uh , I will actually {disfmarker} uh , a spin on different {disfmarker} slightly different spin on what you said , this issue of , uh , realizing that we could take minutes , and that actually may be a goal . So that {disfmarker} that may be kind of the test {disfmarker} in a sense , test data , uh , the {disfmarker} the template of what we want to test against , generating a summary . So that 's an interesting new twist on what we can do with this data .
Professor C: I agree with Jane and Eric . I think the question of how to generate queries automatically was the most interesting question that came up , and it 's something that , as you said , is a whole research topic in itself , so I don't think we 'll be able to do anything on it because we don't have funding on it , uh , in this project . But , um , {vocalsound} it 's definitely something I would {pause} want to do something on .
Grad G: I wonder if work 's already been done on it .
Postdoc H: Like e expert systems and stuff ,
Professor D: Hmm .
Postdoc H: or {disfmarker} ? Uh - huh .
Professor D: Well , being more management lately than {disfmarker} {vocalsound} than research , I think the thing that impressed me most was the people dynamics and not any of the facts . That is , I {disfmarker} I really enjoyed hanging out with this group of people today . So that 's what really impressed me .
PhD E: How are we gonna find that in the data ?
Grad G: Well , if we had people wearing the wireless mikes all the time {disfmarker}
PhD E: Oh , yeah .
Grad G: Yeah , I think {disfmarker}
PhD F: Well , I mean , one thing you could search for is were people laughing a lot .
PhD E: Right .
PhD F: Right ? So .
Professor D: Yeah .
PhD E: How happy were they ?
Professor D: I 'd probably search for something like that .
Grad G: That actually has come up a couple times in queries . I was talking to Landay
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad G: and that was one of his examples .
Professor D: Yeah .
Grad G: When {disfmarker} when did people laugh ?
PhD E: That 's great .
Professor D: Find me a funny thing that Jeff said . Yeah .
Grad G: So we need a laugh detector .
PhD E: Yeah .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD E: Perfect .
Postdoc H: Yeah .
Grad G: Cuz that seems to be pretty common . Not in the congressional hearings .
PhD F: No .
Grad G: Quiet sobbing .
Professor D: So I think we 're done .
Professor A: OK .
PhD E: OK .
Professor A: Great .
PhD E: Great .
PhD F: OK .
Grad G: I think we 're done .
Professor D: Great .
Postdoc H: h Do we need {disfmarker} do I need to turn something off here , or I do unplug this , or {disfmarker} ?
Professor D: Now these we turn off . Right ? | |
doc_176 | Grad G: Time .
Grad C: Thanks .
Grad G: Are you Fey ?
Undergrad D: I am Fey , yeah .
Grad G: Oh .
Grad B: What day is today ?
Undergrad D: Hi .
Grad G: Hi . I think we 've met before , like , I remember talking to you about Aspect or something like that at some point or other .
Undergrad D: A couple times yeah .
Grad F: It 's the uh twenty {disfmarker} nineteenth .
Grad B: Nineteenth ?
Undergrad D: That 's right , yeah .
Grad G: So .
Undergrad D: And you were my GSI briefly , until I dropped the class .
Grad F:
Grad B: Right , right .
Grad G: Oh that 's right .
Undergrad D: But .
Grad G: Well .
Grad C: OK , wh wh
Grad G: No offense .
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad G: Like .
Grad C: OK . Some in some introductions are in order .
Grad G: Oh , OK sorry .
Grad C: OK .
Grad G: Getting ahead of myself .
Grad C: So . Um . For those who don't know {disfmarker} Everyone knows me , this is great . Um , apart from that , sort of the old gang , Johno and Bhaskara have been with us from {disfmarker} from day one
Grad G: Yay !
Grad E: Hi .
Grad C: and um they 're engaged in {disfmarker} in various activities , some of which you will hear about today . Ami is um our counselor and spiritual guidance and um also interested in problems concerning reference of the more complex type ,
PhD A: Well .
Grad E: Oh wow .
Grad C: and um he sits in as a interested participant and helper . Is that a good characterization ?
PhD A: u That 's pretty good , I think .
Grad C: I don't know .
PhD A: Yeah . Thanks .
Grad C: OK . Keith is not technically one of us yet ,
Grad E: Not yet .
Grad C: ha - ha . but um it 's too late for him now .
Grad G: " One of us . "
Grad C: So .
Grad E: Yeah right . I 've got the headset on after all .
Grad C: Um . Officially I guess he will be joining us in the summer .
Grad E: yes .
Grad C: And um hopefully it is by {disfmarker} by means of Keith that we will be able to get a b a better formal and a better semantic um idea of what a construction is and um how we can make it work for us . Additionally his interest um surpasses um English because it also entails German , an extra capability of speaking and writing and understanding and reading that language . And um , is there anyone who doesn't know Nancy ? Do you {disfmarker} do you know Nancy ?
Grad G: Me ?
Grad E: I know Nancy .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: I made that joke already , Nancy , sadly .
Grad C: OK .
Grad G: What ?
Grad B: The " I don't know myself " joke .
Grad G: You did ? When ?
Grad B: Uh before you came in .
Grad G: Oh .
Grad E: Man !
Grad G: About me or you ?
Grad B: About me .
Grad G: OK . {vocalsound} OK .
PhD A: You could do it about you .
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad G: Well I didn't know . I didn't mean to be humor copying , but OK , sorry . Yes , I know myself . It 's OK .
Grad C: OK .
Grad G: It 's a {disfmarker}
Grad C: And um Fey is with us as of six days ago officially ?
Undergrad D: Officially ,
Grad C: Officially ,
Undergrad D: yeah .
Grad C: but in reality already um much much longer and um um next to some {disfmarker} some more or less bureaucratic uh stuff with the {disfmarker} the data collection she 's also the wizard in the data collection Um ,
Grad G: Of Oz .
Undergrad D: It 's very exciting .
Grad C: we 're sticking with the term " wizard " ,
Undergrad D: Yes .
Grad C: OK .
Undergrad D: Yes .
Grad C: and um
Grad G: Not witch - like .
Grad B: Wizardette .
Grad E: Wizard .
Grad F: Wizardess .
Grad C: Sorceress , I think .
Grad G: OK .
Undergrad D: Wizard .
Grad C: wizard uh by by popular vote
Grad G: OK .
Grad C: um
Grad G: Didn't take a vote ? OK .
Grad C: OK , um , why don't we get started on that subject anyways . Um , so we 're about to collect data and um the uh s the following things have happened since we last met . When will we three meet again ? And um
Grad G: More than three of us .
Grad C: what happened is that um , " A " , {comment} there was some confusion between you and Jerry with the {disfmarker} that leading to your talking to Catherine Snow , and he was uh he {disfmarker} he agreed completely that some something confusing happened . Um his idea was to get sort of the l the lists of mayors of the department , the students . It {disfmarker} it 's exactly how you interpreted it , sort of s
Grad E: The list of majors in the department ?
Undergrad D: M m Majors ?
Grad C: Ma - majors , majors .
Undergrad D: Majors ?
Grad C: " Mayors " .
Undergrad D: OK , mayor {disfmarker}
Grad C: Majors .
Undergrad D: Something I don't know about these
Grad G: The department has many mayors .
Grad C: Majors and um just sending the {disfmarker} the little write - up that we did on to those email lists
Undergrad D: OK . OK . Yeah , yeah , yeah . But {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad C: uh {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: So it was really Carol Snow who was confused , not me and not Jerry .
Grad C: Yep , yep , yep . OK . So . So , that is uh {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: That 's good . So I should still do that .
Grad C: Yep .
Undergrad D: OK .
Grad C: And {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: And using the thing that you wrote up .
Grad C: Yep .
Undergrad D: OK .
Grad C: Wonderful . And um we have a little description of asking peop subjects to contact Fey for you know recruiting them for our thing and um there was some confusion as to the consent form , which is basically that {disfmarker} that what what you just signed
Grad G: Right .
Grad C: and since we have one already um {disfmarker}
Grad G: Did Jerry talk to you about maybe using our class ? the students in the undergrad class that he 's teaching ?
Grad C: Um well he said um we {disfmarker} definitely " yes " ,
Grad G: e
Grad C: however there is always more people in a {disfmarker} in a facul uh in a department than are just taking his class or anybody else 's class at the moment
Grad G: Yeah .
Grad C: and one should sort of reach out and try and get them all .
Grad G: OK , but th I guess it 's that um people in his class cover a different set so {disfmarker} than the c is the CogSci department that you were talking about ?
Undergrad D: I guess . See
Grad G: uh reaching out to ?
Undergrad D: that 's what I suggested to him , that people like {disfmarker} like Jerry and George and et cetera just {disfmarker}
Grad G: Cuz we have you know people from other areas
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad G: advertise in their classes as well .
Undergrad D: Yeah or even I could {disfmarker} you know I could do the actual {disfmarker}
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: Cuz I mean I {disfmarker} I know how to contact our students ,
Undergrad D: That 's generally the way it 's done .
Grad G: so if there 's something that you 're sending out you can also s um send me a copy ,
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad G: me or Bhaskara could {disfmarker} either of us could post it to uh is it {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: A mailing list .
Grad G: if it 's a general solicitation that you know is just contact you then we can totally pro post it to the news group
Grad C: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Undergrad D: Yeah .
Grad G: so .
Grad C: Do it . Yeah .
Undergrad D: That 's {disfmarker}
Grad G: OK , so you 'll send it or something so .
Grad C: As a matter of fact , if you {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: I can send it .
Grad C: if {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: I 'll send it ,
Grad G: You can send it to me .
Grad C: Now , i
Undergrad D: yeah .
Grad G: OK . Don't worry , we {disfmarker} this doesn't concern you anymore , Robert .
Grad C: How {disfmarker} however I suggest that if you {disfmarker} if you look at your email carefully you may think {disfmarker} you may find that you already have it .
Grad G: It 's fine . Oops . Already ? Really ?
Grad C: Maybe .
Undergrad D: Probab
Grad G: Oops .
Grad C: OK . W we 'll see .
Grad G: I don't remember getting anything .
Grad C: Anyhow , um the uh Yeah , not only Also we will talk about Linguistics and of course Computer Science .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Um and then , secondly , we had , you may remember , um the problem with the re - phrasing , that subject always re - phrase sort of the task that uh we gave them ,
Grad B: Right .
Grad C: and so we had a meeting on Friday talking about how to avoid that , and it proved finally fruitful in the sense that we came up with a new scenario for how to get the {disfmarker} the subject m to really have intentions and sort of to act upon those , and um there the idea is now that next actually we {disfmarker} we need to hire one more person to actually do that job because it {disfmarker} it 's getting more complicated . So if you know anyone interested in {disfmarker} in what i 'm about to describe , tell that person to {disfmarker} to write a mail to me or Jerry soon , fast . Um {vocalsound} the idea now is to sort of come up with a high level of sort of abstract tasks " go shopping " um " take in uh a batch of art " um " visit {disfmarker} do some sightseeing " blah - blah - blah - blah - blah , sort of analogous to what Fey has started in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in compiling {disfmarker} compiling here and already {disfmarker} she has already gone to the trouble of {disfmarker} of anchoring it with specific um o {comment} um entities and real world places you will find in Heidelberg . And um . So out of these f s these high level categories the subject can pick a couple , such as if {disfmarker} if there is a cop uh a category in emptying your roll of film , the person can then decide " OK , I wanna do that at this place " , sort of make up their own itinerary a and {disfmarker} and tasks and the person is not allowed to take sort of this h high level category list with them , but uh the person is able to take notes on a map that we will give him and the map will be a tourist 's sort of schematic representation with {disfmarker} with symbols for the objects . And so , the person can maybe make a mental note that " ah yeah I wanted to go shopping here " and " I wanted to maybe take a picture of that " and " maybe um eat here " and then goes in and solves the task with the system , IE {comment} Fey , and um and we 're gonna try out that {disfmarker} Any questions ?
Grad G: so um y you 'll have those say somewhere what their intention was {disfmarker} so you still have the {disfmarker} the nice thing about having data where you know what the actual intention was ?
Grad C: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Grad G: But they will um {disfmarker} There 's nothing that says you know " these are the things you want to do " so they 'll say " well these are the things I want to do " and {disfmarker} Right , so they 'll have a little bit more natural interaction ?
Grad C: Hopefully .
Grad G: OK . Mm - hmm .
Grad F: So they 'll be given this map , which means that they won't have to like ask the system for in for like high level information about where things are ?
Grad C: Yeah it 's a schematic tourist map . So it 'll be uh i it 'll still require the {disfmarker} that information and An
Grad G: It w it doesn't have like streets on it that would allow them to figure out their way {disfmarker}
Grad C: N not {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not really the street network . Nuh .
Grad G: OK .
Grad E: So you 're just saying like what part of town the things are in or whatever ?
Grad C: Yeah a and um the map is more a means for them to have the buildings and their names and maybe some ma ma major streets and their names
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: and we want to maybe ask them , if you have {disfmarker} get it sort of isolated street the {disfmarker} the , whatever , " River Street " , and they know that {disfmarker} they have decided that , yes , that 's where they want to do this kind of action um that they have it with them and they can actually read them or sort of have the label for the object because it 's too hard to memorize all these st strange German names . And then we 're going to have another {disfmarker} we 're gonna have w another trial run IE the first with that new setup tomorrow at two and we have a real interesting subject which is Ron Kay for who {disfmarker} those who know him , he 's the founder of ICI . So he 'll {disfmarker} he 's around seven seventy years old , or something .
Grad G: I didn't know he was the founder . That 's {disfmarker} OK .
Grad C: And he also approached me and he offered to help {vocalsound} um our project and he was more thinking about some high level thinking tasks and {vocalsound} I said " sure we need help you can come in as a subject " and he said " OK " . So that 's what 's gonna happen , tomorrow , data .
Grad G: Using this new {disfmarker} new um plan ,
Grad C: New {disfmarker} new set up .
Grad G: OK .
Grad C: Yeah . Which I 'll hopefully sort of scrape together t But , thanks to Fey , we already have sort of a nice blueprint and I can work with that . Questions ? Comments on that ? If not , we can move on . No ? No more questions ?
Grad E: I 'm not sure I totally understand this
Grad G: So what 's the s this is what you made , Fey ?
Grad C: Hmm ?
Grad E: but {disfmarker} I 'm not sure I totally understand everything that 's being talked about
Grad G: Like so {disfmarker} So it 's just based on like the materials you had about Heidelberg .
Grad C: Um are you familiar with {disfmarker} with the {disfmarker} with the very rough setup of the data ?
Grad E: but I {disfmarker} I imagine I 'll c just catch on .
Undergrad D: Based on the web site , yeah , at the {disfmarker}
Grad G: Oh OK there 's a web site
Grad C: experiment ?
Undergrad D: Right .
Grad G: and then you could like um figure out what the cate
Undergrad D: It 's a tourist information web site ,
Grad E: Uh , this is where they 're supposed to {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: so .
Grad G: OK .
Grad C: Talk to a machine and it breaks down and then the human comes on .
Grad G: OK .
Grad E: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad C: The question is just sort of how do we get the tasks in their head that they have an intention of doing something and have a need to ask the system for something without giving them sort of a clear wording or phrasing of the task .
Grad E: OK . OK . OK .
Grad C: Because what will happen then is that people repeat {disfmarker} repeat , {comment} or as much as they can , of that phrasing .
Grad E: OK .
Grad G: Hmm . Um , are you worried about being able to identify {disfmarker}
Grad E: OK .
Grad G: Um . The {disfmarker} The goals that we 've d you guys have been talking about are this {disfmarker} these you know identifying which of three modes um their question uh concerns .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: So it 's like the Enter versus View {disfmarker}
Grad C: Yeah , we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we will sort of get a protocol of the prior interaction ,
Grad G: Uh - huh .
Grad C: right ? That 's where the instructor , the person we are going to hire , um and the subjects sit down together with these high level things
Grad G: Uh - huh . Mm - hmm .
Grad C: and so th the q first question for the subject is , " so these are things , you know , we thought a tourist can do . Is there anything that interests you ? "
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: And the person can say " yeah , sure sh this is something I would do . I would go shopping " . Yeah ? and then we can sort of {disfmarker} this s instructor can say " well , uh then you {disfmarker} you may want to find out how to get over here
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: because this is where the shopping district is " .
Grad G: So the interaction beforehand will give them hints about how specific or how whatever though the kinds of questions that are going to ask during the actual session ?
Grad C: No . Just sort of {disfmarker} OK , what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what would you like to buy and then um OK there you wanna buy a whatever cuckoos clocks
Grad G: Yeah .
Grad C: OK and the there is a store there .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: So the task then for that person is t finding out how to get there , right ?
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: That 's sort of what 's left .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: And we know that the intention is to enter because we know that the person wants to buy a cuckoos clock .
Grad G: OK , that 's what I mean so like those tasks are all gonna be um unambiguous about which of the three modes .
Grad C: Hopefully .
Grad G: Right . OK . So .
PhD A: Well , so the idea is to try to get the actual phrasing that they might use and try to interfere as little as possible with their choice of words .
Grad C: Hopefully .
Grad G: t {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} That they 'll be here ?
Grad C: Yes . In a sense that 's exactly the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the idea ,
PhD A: uh uh
Grad C: which is never possible in a {disfmarker} in a s in a lab situation ,
PhD A: Well , u u the one experiment th that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that I 've read somewhere , it was {disfmarker} they u used pictures .
Grad C: nuh ?
PhD A: So to {disfmarker} to uh actually um uh specify the {disfmarker} the tasks .
Grad C: Yep .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Uh , but you know i i
Grad C: Yeah . We had exactly that on our list of possible way things so we {disfmarker} uh I even made a sort of a silly thing how that could work , how you control you are here you {disfmarker} you want to know how to get someplace , and this is the place and it 's a museum and you want to do some and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and there 's a person looking at pictures . So , you know , this is exactly getting someplace with the intention of entering and looking at pictures .
PhD A: Right .
Grad C: However , not only was {disfmarker} the common census were {disfmarker} among all participants of Friday 's meeting was it 's gonna be very laborious to {disfmarker} to make these drawings for each different things ,
PhD A: Right .
Grad C: all the different actions , if at all possible , and also people will get caught up in the pictures . So all of a sudden we 'll get descriptions of pictures in there .
PhD A: Right .
Grad C: And people talking about pictures and pictorial representations
Grad E: Hmm .
Grad C: and {disfmarker} um
PhD A: Right .
Grad C: I would s I would still be willing to try it .
PhD A: I mean , I I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm not saying it 's necessary but {disfmarker} but uh i uh uh i {vocalsound} you might be able to combine you know text uh and {disfmarker} and some sort of picture and also uh I think it {disfmarker} it will be a good idea to show them the text and kind of chew the task and then take the test away {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the text away
Grad C: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
PhD A: so that they are not uh guided by {disfmarker} by by what you wrote ,
Grad C: We will {disfmarker}
PhD A: but can come up with their {disfmarker} with their own {disfmarker}
Grad C: Yeah , they will have no more linguistic matter in front of them when they enter this room .
PhD A: Right .
Grad C: OK . Then I suggest we move on to the {disfmarker} to we have um uh the EDU Project , let me make one more general remark , has sort of two {disfmarker} two side uh um actions , its um action items that we 're do dealing with , one is modifying the SmartKom parser and the other one is modifying the SmartKom natural language generation module . And um this is not too complicated but I 'm just mentioning it {disfmarker} put it in the framework because this is something we will talk about now . Um , I have some news from the generation , do you have news from the parser ?
Grad F: Um , not {disfmarker}
Grad C: By that look I {disfmarker}
Grad F: Yes , uh , I would really p It would be better if I talked about it on Friday .
Grad C: OK .
Grad F: If that 's OK .
Grad C: Yeah , wonderful . Um , did you run into problems or did you run into not h having time ?
Grad F: Yeah . But not {disfmarker} not any time part .
Grad C: OK , so that 's good . That 's better than running into problems .
Grad F: OK .
Grad C: And um I {disfmarker} I do have some good news for the natural language generation however . And the good news is I guess it 's done . Uh , meaning that Tilman Becker , who does the German one , actually took out some time and already did it in English for us . And so the version he 's sending us is already producing the English that 's needed to get by in version one point one .
Grad F: So I take it that was similar to the {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what we did for the parsing ?
Grad C: Yeah . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} even though the generator is a little bit more complex and it would have been , not changing one hundred words but maybe four hundred words ,
Grad F: OK .
Grad C: but it would have been
Grad F: OK .
Grad C: but this {disfmarker} this is I guess good news , and the uh {disfmarker} the time and especially Bhaskara and uh {disfmarker} and um {disfmarker} Oh do I have it here ? No . The time is now pretty much fixed . It 's the last week of April until the fourth of May so it 's twenty - sixth through fourth . That they 'll be here . So it 's {disfmarker} it 's extremely important that the two of you are also present in this town during that time .
Grad B: Wait , what {disfmarker} what are the days ? April twenty - sixth to the {disfmarker} May fourth ?
Grad C: Yeah , something like that .
Grad B: I 'll probably be here .
Grad C: It 's {disfmarker}
Grad F: Yeah .
Grad E: You will be here .
Grad C: There is a d Isn't finals coming up then pretty much after that ?
Grad F: Finals was that .
Grad G: Yeah w it doesn't really have much meaning to grad students but final projects might .
Grad C: OK .
Grad F: Yeah actually , that 's true .
Grad G: That {disfmarker}
Grad C: Anyway , so this is {disfmarker}
Grad B: Well I 'll be here working on something . Guaranteed , it 's just uh will I be here , you know , in uh {disfmarker} I 'll be here too actually but {disfmarker}
PhD A: Hmm .
Grad C: No it 's just um you know they 're coming for us so that we can bug them
Grad G: Ye
Grad C: and ask them more questions and sit down together and write sensible code and they can give some nice talks and stuff . But uh
Grad B: But it 's not like we need to be with them twenty - four hours a day s for the seven days that they 're here .
Grad C: just make a {disfmarker} Not {disfmarker} not unless you really really want to .
Grad E: They 're very dependent
Grad C: Not unless you really want to . And they 're both nice guys so you may {disfmarker} may want to . OK , that much from the parser and generator side , unless there are more questions on that .
Grad G: So , no sample generator output yet ?
Grad C: No . It {disfmarker} Just a mail that , you know , he 's sending me the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the stuff soon
Grad G: OK . This is being sent , mm - hmm . OK .
Grad C: and I was completely flabbergasted here
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: and I {disfmarker} and that 's also it 's {disfmarker} it 's going to produce the concept - to - speech uh blah - blah - blah information for {disfmarker} necessary for one point one in English {disfmarker} based on the English , you know , in English . So . I was like " OK ,
Grad E: We 're done .
Grad C: we 're done ! "
Grad G: So that was like one of the first l You know , the first task was getting it working for English . So that 's basically over now . Is that right ?
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad G: So the basic requirement fulfilled .
Grad C: Um , the basic requirement is fulfilled almost . When Andreas Stolcke and {disfmarker} and his gang ,
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: when they have um changed the language model of the recognizer and the dictionary , then we can actually a put it all together
Grad G: Mm - hmm . So the speech recognizer also works . Uh - huh . Mm - hmm .
Grad C: and you can speak into it and ask for TV and movie information
Grad E: Toll .
Grad C: and then when if {disfmarker} if something actually happens and some answers come out , then we 're done .
Grad G: Mm - hmm . If {disfmarker} and they 're kind of correct .
Grad E: So it 's not done basically .
Grad C: Hmm ?
Grad G: And they kind of are {disfmarker} are correct .
Grad E: Right . Perhaps if the answers have something to do with the questions for example .
Grad G: It 's not just like anything . And they 're mostly in English . So .
Grad C: Then um {disfmarker}
Grad G: Are they {disfmarker} is it using the database ? the German TV movie .
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad G: OK . So {vocalsound} all the actual data might be German names ?
Grad C: Um well actually th um
Grad G: Or are they all like American TV programs ?
Grad C: um well {disfmarker}
Grad E: I want to see " Die Dukes Von Hazard "
Grad C: The {disfmarker} OK , so you don't know how the German dialogue {disfmarker} uh the German {disfmarker} the demo dialogue actually works . It works {disfmarker} the first thing is what 's , you know , showing on TV , and then the person is presented with what 's running on TV in Germany on that day , on that evening
Grad G: Mm - hmm , mm - hmm .
Grad C: and so you take one look at it and then you say " well that 's really nothing {disfmarker} there 's nothing for me there " " what 's running in the cinemas ? " So maybe there 's something better happening there .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: And then you get {disfmarker} you 're shown what movies play which films , and it 's gonna be of course all the Heidelberg movies and what films they are actually showing .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: And most of them are going to be Hollywood movies . So , " American Beauty " is " American Beauty " ,
Grad G: Hmm .
Grad C: right ? Yeah .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: Right .
Grad C: And um .
Grad G: But they 're shown like on a screen .
Grad C: N
Grad G: It 's a {disfmarker} I mean so would the generator , like the English language sentence of it is {disfmarker} " these are the follow you know the following films are being shown " or something like that ?
Grad C: Yeah , but it in that sense it doesn't make {disfmarker} In that case uh it doesn't really make sense to read them out loud .
Grad G: S Right .
Grad C: if you 're displaying them .
Grad G: So it 'll just display {disfmarker} OK .
Grad C: But uh it 'll tell you that this is what 's showing in Heidelberg and there you go .
Grad G: So we don't have to worry about um {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad C: And the presentation agent will go " Hhh ! " {comment} Nuh ?
Grad G: OK .
Grad C: Like that {disfmarker} the avatar .
Grad G: OK .
Grad C: And um . And then you pick {disfmarker} pick a movie and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and it show shows you the times and you pick a time and you pick seats and all of this . So .
Grad G: OK .
Grad C: Pretty straightforward .
Grad E: OK .
Grad C: But it 's {disfmarker} so this time we {disfmarker} we are at an advantage because it was a problem for the German system to incorporate all these English movie titles .
Grad G: Yeah .
Grad C: Nuh ? But in English , that 's not really a problem ,
Grad G: Right . Mm - hmm .
Grad C: unless we get some {disfmarker} some topical German movies that have just come out and that are in their database . So the person may select " Huehner Rennen " or whatever .
Grad G: Right .
Grad E: " Chicken Run " .
Grad C: OK . Then uh on to the modeling . Right ?
Grad B: Yeah , yeah , I guess .
Grad C: Um then modeling , there it is .
Grad B: Yep .
Grad E: OK . What 's the next thing ?
Grad B: e
Grad C: This is very rough but this is sort of what um Johno and I managed to come up with . The idea here is that {disfmarker}
Grad B: This is the uh s the schema of the XML here , not an example or something like that .
Grad C: Yeah this is not an XML this is sort of towards an {disfmarker} a schema ,
Grad E: OK .
PhD A: Right .
Grad C: nuh ? definition . The idea is , so , imagine we have a library of schema such as the Source - Path - Goal and then we have forced uh motion , we have cost action ,
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: we have a whole library of schemas .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: And they 're gonna be , you know , fleshed out in {disfmarker} in their real ugly detail , Source - Path - Goal , and there 's gonna be s a lot of stuff on the Goal and blah - blah - blah , that a goal can be and so forth . What we think is {disfmarker} And all the names could {disfmarker} should be taken " cum grano salis " . So . This is a {disfmarker} the fact that we 're calling this " action schema " right now should not entail that we are going to continue calling this " action schema " . But what that means {vocalsound} is we have here first of all on the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in the first iteration a stupid list of Source - Path - Goal actions
Grad B: Actions that can be categorized with {disfmarker} or that are related to Source - Path - Goal .
Grad C: wi to that schema
Grad E: OK .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: and we will have you know forced motion and cost action actions .
Grad B: And then those actions can be in multiple categories at the same time if necessary .
Grad C: So a push may be in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in both you know push uh in this or this uh {disfmarker}
Grad G: Forced motion and caused action for instance ,
Grad C: Exactly . Yeah .
Grad G: OK .
Grad C: Also , these things may or may not get their own structure in the future . So this is something that , you know , may also be a res As a result of your work in the future , we may find out that , you know , there 're really s these subtle differences between um even within the domain of entering in the light of a Source - Path - Goal schema , that we need to put in {disfmarker} fill in additional structure up there . But it gives us a nice handle . So with this we can basically um you know s slaughter the cow any anyway we want . Uh . It {disfmarker} it is {disfmarker} It was sort of a {disfmarker} it gave us some headache , how do we avoid writing down that we have sort of the Enter Source - Path - Goal that this {disfmarker} But this sort of gets the job done in that respect and maybe it is even conceptually somewhat adequate in a sense that um we 're talking about two different things . We 're talking more on the sort of intention level , up there , and more on the {disfmarker} this is the {disfmarker} your basic bone um schema , down there .
Grad B: Uh one question , Robert . When you point at the screen is it your shadow that I 'm supposed to look at ?
Grad G: Yeah . It 's the shadow .
Grad B: OK . Whereas I keep looking where your hand is , and it doesn't {disfmarker}
Grad C: Well , that wouldn't have helped you at all .
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad G: Right .
Grad B: Basically , what this is {disfmarker} is that there 's an interface between what we are doing and the action planner
Grad E: Spit right here .
Grad B: and right now the way the interface is " action go " and then they have the {disfmarker} what the person claimed was the source and the person claimed as the goal passed on .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: And the problem is , is that the current system does not distinguish between goes of type " going into " , goes of type " want to go to a place where I can take a picture of " , et cetera .
Grad C: So this is sort of what it looks like now , some simple " Go " action from it {disfmarker} from an object named " Peter 's Kirche " of the type " Church " to an object named " Powder - Tower " of the type " Tower " . Right ?
Grad G: This is the uh {disfmarker} what the action planner uses ?
Grad B: Right . Currently .
Grad G: This is {disfmarker} OK .
Grad C: Currently .
Grad G: And is that {disfmarker} and tha that 's changeable ? or not ?
Grad C: Yeah , well {disfmarker}
Grad G: Like are we adapting to it ?
Grad C: No .
Grad G: Or {disfmarker}
Grad C: We {disfmarker} This is the output , sort of , of the natural language understanding ,
Grad G: Oh , yeah .
Grad C: right ?
Grad G: Uh - huh .
Grad C: the input into the action planning , as it is now .
Grad G: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad C: And what we are going to do , we going to {disfmarker} and you can see here , and again for Johno please {disfmarker} please focus the shadow ,
Grad B: OK .
Grad C: um we 're gon uh uh here you have the action and the domain object and w and on {disfmarker} on {disfmarker}
Grad G: What did you think he was doing ?
Grad B: I just {disfmarker}
Grad G: OK , sorry .
Grad E: A laser pointer would be most appropriate here I think .
Grad C: Yeah I {disfmarker} I um have {disfmarker} I have no {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: Eee .
Grad B: Robert likes to be abstract and that 's what I just thought he was doing .
Grad G: You look up here .
Grad C: Sort of between here and here ,
Grad G: OK .
Grad C: so as you can see this is on one level and we are going to add another um " Struct " , if you want , IE a rich action description on that level .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: So in the future {disfmarker}
Grad G: So it 's just an additional information {disfmarker}
Grad C: Exactly . In the future though , the content of a hypothesis will not only be an object and an {disfmarker} an action and a domain object but an action , a domain object , and a rich action description ,
Grad G: Right ? that doesn't hurt the current way . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad B: Which {disfmarker} which we 're abbreviating as " RAD " .
Grad C: which is {disfmarker}
Grad G: Good .
Grad E: Rad !
Grad G: Hmm .
Grad F: So um you had like an action schema and a Source - Path - Goal schema ,
Grad G: Hmm . Hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad F: right ? So how does this Source - Path - Goal schema fit into the uh action schema ? Like is it one of the tags there ?
Grad G: Yeah can you go back to that one ?
Grad B: So the Source - Path - Goal schema in this case , I 've {disfmarker} if I understand how we described {disfmarker} we set this up , um cuz we 've been arguing about it all week , but uh we 'll hold the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} Well in this case it will hold the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean the {disfmarker} the features I guess . I 'm not {disfmarker} it 's hard for me to exactly s So basically that will store the {disfmarker} the object that is w the Source will store the object that we 're going from , the Goal will store the {disfmarker} the f
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: So the fillers of the role source .
Grad B: we 'll fill those in fill those roles in , right ?
Grad G: OK .
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad B: The S Action - schemas basically have extra {disfmarker} See we {disfmarker} so those are {disfmarker} schemas exist because in case we need extra information instead of just making it an attribute and which {disfmarker} which is just one thing we {disfmarker} we decided to make it 's own entity so that we could explode it out later on in case there is some structure that {disfmarker} that we need to exploit .
Grad G: OK , so th sorry I just don't kn um um um {disfmarker} This is just uh XML mo notational but um the fact that it 's action schema and then sort of slash action schema that 's a whole entit
Grad B: That 's a block , yeah .
Grad G: That 's a block , whereas source is just an attribute ?
Grad C: No , no , no .
Grad G: Is that {disfmarker}
Grad C: Source is just not spelled out here . Source meaning {disfmarker} Source will be uh will have a name , a type , maybe a dimensionality ,
Grad G: Oh , OK , OK .
Grad C: maybe canonical uh orientation {disfmarker}
Grad G: Uh - huh , uh - huh . OK could it {disfmarker} it could also be blocked out then as {disfmarker}
Grad B: Yeah , the {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}
Grad G: OK .
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad C: s Source it will be , you know we 'll f we know a lot about sources so we 'll put all of that in Source .
Grad G: OK .
Grad C: But it 's independent whether we are using the SPG schema in an Enter , View , or Approach mode , right ?
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: This is just properties of the SPG {comment} schema . We can talk about Paths being the fastest , the quickest , the nicest and so forth , uh or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} and the Trajector should be coming in there as well .
Grad G: OK .
Grad C: And then G the same about Goals .
Grad G: OK . So I guess the question is when you actually fill one of these out , it 'll be under action schema ? Those are {disfmarker} It 's gonna be one {disfmarker} y you 'll pick one of those for {disfmarker}
Grad B: Right .
Grad G: OK these are {disfmarker} this is just a layout of the possible that could go {disfmarker} play that role .
Grad B: Right , so the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the roles will be filled in with the schema
Grad C: Hmm ?
Grad G: OK , go it . Uh - huh .
Grad B: and then what actual a action is chosen is {disfmarker} will be in the {disfmarker} in the action schema section .
Grad G: OK . OK . S S OK , so one question . This was {disfmarker} in this case it 's all um clear , sort of obvious , but you can think of the Enter , View and Approach as each having their roles , right ? the {disfmarker} I mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's implicit that the person that 's moving is doing entering viewing and approaching , but you know the usual thing is we have bindings between sort of {disfmarker} they 're sort of like action specific roles and the more general Source - Path - Goal specific roles . So are we worrying about that or not for now ?
Grad C: Yes , yes . Since you bring it up now , we will worry about it .
Grad G: OK .
Grad C: Tell us more about it .
Grad G: OK .
Grad C: What do you {disfmarker} what do you {disfmarker}
Grad G: What 's that ? Oh I guess it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I may be just um reading this and interpreting it into my head in the way that I 've always viewed things
Grad C: Hmm .
Grad E: Hmm .
Grad G: and {vocalsound} that {disfmarker} that may or may not be what you guys intended . But if it is , then the top block is sort of like um , you know , you have to list exactly what X - schema or in this action schema , there 'll be a certain one , that has its own s structure and maybe it has stuff about that specific to entering or viewing or approaching , but those could include roles like the thing that you 're viewing , the thing that you 're entering , the thing that you 're
Grad E: So very specific role names are " viewed thing " , " entered thing " {disfmarker}
Grad G: whatever , you know , that {disfmarker} which are {disfmarker} think {disfmarker} think of enter , view and approach as frames
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad G: and they have frame - specific parameters and {disfmarker} and roles
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad G: and you can also describe them in a general way as Source - Path - Goal schema and maybe there 's other image schemas that you could you know add after this that you know , how do they work in terms of you know a force dynamics
Grad C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm , Mm - hmm , Mm - hmm .
Grad G: or how do they work in f terms of other things . So all of those have um basically f either specific {disfmarker} frame specific roles or more general frame specific roles that might have binding . So the question is are um {disfmarker} how to represent when things are linked in a certain way . So we know for Enter that there 's Container potentially involved
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: and it 's not {disfmarker} uh I don't know if you wanna have in the same level as the action schema SPG schema it {disfmarker} it 's somewhere in there that you need to represent that there is some container and the interior of it corresponds to some part of the Source - Path - Goal um you know goal {disfmarker} uh goal I guess in this case .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: So uh is there an easy way in this notation to show when there 's identity basically between things
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad G: and I di don't know if that 's something we need to invent or you know just {disfmarker}
Grad B: The {disfmarker} wa wasn't there supposed to be a link in the
Grad F: Right .
Grad B: I don't know if this answers your question , I was just staring at this while you were talking , sorry .
Grad G: It 's OK .
Grad B: Uh a link between the action schema , a field in the s in the schema for the image schemas that would link us to which action schema we were supposed to use so we could {disfmarker}
Grad C: Yeah . Um , well that 's {disfmarker} that 's one {disfmarker} one thing is that we can link up , think also that um we can have one or m as many as we want links from {disfmarker} from the schema up to the s action um description of it .
Grad G: Hmm .
Grad C: But the notion I got from Nancy 's idea was that we may f find sort of concepts floating around i in the a action description of the action f " Enter " frame up there that are , e when you talk about the real world , actually identical to the goal of the {disfmarker} the S Source - Path - Goal schema ,
Grad G: Exactly . Right , right .
Grad C: and do we have means of {disfmarker} of telling it within that a and the answer is absolutely .
Grad G: Right .
Grad C: The way {disfmarker} we absolutely have those means that are even part of the M - three - L A API ,
Grad G: Yeah . Oh great . s Uh - huh .
Grad C: meaning we can reference . So meaning {disfmarker}
Grad G: Great . That 's exactly what is necessary .
Grad B: Yeah . St
Grad C: And um . This referencing thing however is of temporary nature because sooner or later the W - three - C will be finished with their X - path , uh , um , specification and then it 's going to be even much nicer . Then we have real means of pointing at an individual instantiation of one of our elements here
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: and link it to another one , and this not only within a document but also via documents ,
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: OK .
Grad C: and {disfmarker} and all in a v very easy e homogenous framework .
Grad G: So you know {disfmarker} happen to know how {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what " sooner or later " means like in practice ?
Grad C: That 's but it 's soon .
Grad G: Or estimated . OK , OK .
Grad C: So it 's g it 's {disfmarker} the spec is there and it 's gonna part of the M - three - L AP {disfmarker} API filed by the end of this year so that this means we can start using it basically now . But this is a technical detail .
Grad G: Mm - hmm . So a pointer {disfmarker} a way to really say pointers .
Grad B: Basically references from the roles in the schema {disfmarker} the bottom schemas to the action schemas is wha uh I 'm assuming .
Grad G: Yeah . OK , yeah .
Grad C: Yeah . Yeah , I mean personally , I 'm looking even more forward to the day when we 're going to have X forms , which l is a form of notation where it allows you to say that if the SPG action up there is Enter , then the goal type can never be a statue .
Grad G: OK . Uh - huh . Right .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: So you have constraints that are dependent on the c actual s specific filler , uh , of some attribute .
Grad C: Mm - hmm , yeah . W Yeah e exactly . Um , you know this , of course , does not make sense in light of the Statue of Liberty ,
Grad G: Uh - huh .
Grad C: however {vocalsound} it is uh you know sort of {disfmarker} these sort of things are imaginable .
Grad E: Right .
Grad G: Tsk . Yeah .
Grad C: Yeah ?
Grad F: S So um , like are you gonna have similar schemas for FM
Grad G: Or the Gateway Arch in St .
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad G: Louis . So .
Grad F: like forced motion and caused action and stuff like you have for SPG ?
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad F: And if so like can {disfmarker} are you able to enforce that you know if {disfmarker} if it 's {disfmarker} if it 's SPG action then you have that schema , if it 's a forced motion then you have the other schema present in the {disfmarker}
Grad C: Um we have absolute {disfmarker} No . We have absolutely no means of enforcing that , so it would be considered valid if we have an SPG action " Enter " and no SPG schema , but a forced action schema . Could happen .
Grad G: Whi - which is not bad , because I mean , that there 's multiple sens I mean that particular case , there 's mult there {disfmarker} there 's a forced side of {disfmarker} of that verb as well .
Grad C: Hmm . It {disfmarker} maybe it means we had nothing to say about the Source - Path - Goal .
Grad F: OK .
Grad C: What 's also nice , and for a i for me in my mind it 's {disfmarker} it 's crucially necessary , is that we can have multiple schemas and multiple action schemas in parallel .
Grad F: Right .
Grad C: And um we started thinking about going through our bakery questions , so when I say " is there a bakery here ? " you know I do ultimately want our module to be able to first of all f tell the rest of the system " hey this person actually wants to go there " and " B " , {comment} that person actually wants to buy something to eat there . Nuh ? And if these are two different schemas , IE the Source - Path - Goal schema of getting there and then the buying snacks schema , nuh ? {disfmarker}
Grad G: Would they both be listed here in {disfmarker}
Grad C: Yes .
Grad G: OK . Under so o under action schema there 's a list that can include both {disfmarker} both things .
Grad B: Right .
Grad C: ye Yeah , they they would {disfmarker} both schemas would appear , so what is the uh is {disfmarker} is there a " buying s snacks " schema ?
Grad E: Snack action .
Grad G: That 's interesting .
Grad C: What is the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} have
Grad G: What ?
Grad C: the buying snack schema ?
Grad E: See .
Undergrad D: Buying {disfmarker} {vocalsound} buying his food {disfmarker}
Grad E: I 'm sure there 's a commercial event schema in there somewhere .
Grad G: Oop . I {vocalsound} d f
Grad C: Yeah , a " commercial event " or something .
Grad G: Yeah I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}
Grad C: Yeah ? So uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} so we would {disfmarker} we would instantiate the SPG schema with a Source - Path - Goal blah - blah - blah
Grad G: I see .
Grad C: and the buying event you know at which {disfmarker} however that looks like , the place f thing to buy .
Grad G: Uh - huh . Uh - huh . Interesting . Would you say that the {disfmarker} like {disfmarker} I mean you could have a flat structure and just say these are two independent things , but there 's also this sort of like causal , well , so one is really facilitating the other and it 's part of a compound action of some kind , which has structure .
Grad C: Yeah . Now it 's technically possible that you can fit schema within schema , and schema within schemata {disfmarker}
Grad G: uh I {disfmarker} I think that 's nicer for a lot of reasons but might be a pain so uh {disfmarker}
Grad C: um Well , for me it seems that uh {disfmarker} r Yes .
Grad G: I mean there are truly times when you have two totally independent goals that they might express at once , but in this case it 's really like there 's a purpo means that you know f for achieving some other purpose .
Grad C: Well , if I 'm {disfmarker} if I 'm recipient of such a message and I get a Source - Path - Goal where the goal is a bakery and then I get a commercial action which takes place in a bakery , right ? and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and they {disfmarker} they are obviously , via identifiers , identified to be the same thing here .
Grad G: Uh - huh . Yeah . See that {disfmarker} that bothers me that they 're the same thing .
Grad C: No , no , just the {disfmarker} Yeah ?
Grad G: Yeah because they 're two different things one of which is l you could think of one a sub you know pru whatever pre - condition for the second .
Grad C: Yeah , yeah !
Grad G: Right . Yeah , yeah . So . So . OK . So there 's like levels of granularity . So uh there 's {disfmarker} there 's um a single event of which they are both a part . And they 're {disfmarker} independently they {disfmarker} they are events which have very different characters as far as Source - Path - Goal whatever .
Grad C: Mm - hmm , yeah .
Grad G: So when you identify Source - Path - Goal and whatever , there 's gonna to be a desire , whatever , eating , hunger , whatever other frames you have involved , they have to match up in {disfmarker} in nice ways . So it seems like each of them has its own internal structure and mapping to these schemas
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: you know from the other {disfmarker} But you know that 's just {disfmarker} That 's just me .
Grad C: Well , I think we 're gonna hit a lot of interesting problems
Grad G: Like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}
Grad C: and as I prefaced it this is the result of one week of arguing {vocalsound} about it
Grad G: Mm - hmm . Between you guys
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad G: uh
Grad C: and um {disfmarker} and so {disfmarker}
Grad G: OK .
Grad E: Yeah I mean I {disfmarker} I still am not entirely sure that I really fully grasp the syntax of this .
Grad B: Well it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not actually a very {disfmarker} actually , it doesn't actually {disfmarker}
Grad C: Um it occur {disfmarker} it occurs to me that I mean ne
Grad E: You know , like what {disfmarker} Right . Or the intended interpretation of this .
Grad C: um well I should have {disfmarker} we should have added an ano an XML example ,
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad C: or some XML examples
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad G: yeah that would be {disfmarker} that would be nice .
Grad C: and {disfmarker} and this is on {disfmarker} on a {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on my list of things until next {disfmarker} next week .
Grad E: OK .
Grad C: It 's also a question of the recursiveness and {disfmarker} and a hier hierarchy um in there .
Grad G: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad C: Do we want the schemas just blump blump blump blump ? I mean it 's {disfmarker} if we can actually you know get it so that we can , out of one utterance , activate more than one schema , I mean , then we 're already pretty good ,
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: right ?
PhD A: Well {disfmarker} well you have to be careful with that uh uh thing because uh {vocalsound} I mean many actions presuppose some {disfmarker} um almost {vocalsound} infinitely many other actions . So if you go to a bakery {pause} you have a general intention of uh not being hungry .
Grad G: Yeah . Mayb - yeah .
PhD A: You have a specific intentions to cross the traffic light to get there .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: You have a further specific intentions to left {disfmarker} to lift your right foot
Grad C: Hmm ?
PhD A: and so uh uh I mean y you really have to focus on on {disfmarker} on
Grad G: Right .
PhD A: and decide the level of {disfmarker} of abstraction that {disfmarker} that you aim at it kind of zero in on that ,
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad G: Right .
PhD A: and more or less ignore the rest , unless there is some implications that {disfmarker} that you want to constant draw from {disfmarker} from sub - tasks um that are relevant uh I mean but very difficult .
Grad G: M Th The other thing that I just thought of is that you could want to go to the bakery because you 're supposed to meet your friend there or som
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: you know so you {disfmarker} like being able to infer the second thing is very useful and probably often right .
Grad B: Well the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the utterance was " is there a bakery around here ? " ,
Grad G: But having them separate {disfmarker}
Grad B: not " I want to go to a bakery . "
Grad G: Well maybe their friend said they were going to meet them in a bakery around the area .
PhD A: Right .
Grad G: And I 'm , yeah {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm inventing contexts which are maybe unlikely ,
PhD A: Right .
Grad B: Sure it {disfmarker} OK . Yeah .
Grad G: but yeah I mean like {disfmarker} but it 's still the case that um you could {disfmarker} you could override that default by giving extra information
Grad C: Mm - hmm , yeah .
Grad G: which is to me a reason why you would keep the inference of that separate from the knowledge of " OK they really want to know if there 's a bakery around here " ,
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad G: which is direct .
Grad C: Well there {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there should never be a hard coded uh {vocalsound} shortcut from {pause} the bakery question to the uh double schema thing ,
Grad G: Right .
Grad C: how uh {disfmarker} And , as a matter of fact , when I have traveled with my friends we make these {disfmarker} exactly these kinds of appointments .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: We o o
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: Yeah . Exactly . It 's {disfmarker} I met someone at the bakery you know in the Victoria Station t you know {vocalsound} train station London before ,
PhD A: Right .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . Yep .
PhD A: Well . I have a question about the slot of the SPG action .
Grad G: yeah . It 's like {disfmarker}
PhD A: So {vocalsound} the Enter - View - Approach the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the EVA um , those are fixed slots in this particular action . Every action of this kind will have a choice . Or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or will it just um uh {disfmarker} is it change {disfmarker}
Grad E: Every SPG {disfmarker} every SPG action either is an Enter or a View or an Approach ,
PhD A: Right , right .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: right ?
PhD A: So {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I mean for {disfmarker} for each particular action that you may want to characterize you would have some number of slots that define uh uh uh you know in some way what this action is all about .
Grad E: OK .
PhD A: It can be either A , B or C . Um . So is it a fixed number or {disfmarker} or do you leave it open {disfmarker} it could be between one and fifteen uh {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's flexible .
Grad C: Um , the uh {disfmarker} Well , it sort of depends on {disfmarker} on if you actually write down the {disfmarker} the schema then you have to say it 's either one of them or it can be none , or it can be any of them . However the uh {disfmarker} it seems to be sensible to me to r to view them as mutually exclusive um maybe even not .
Grad G: J Do you mean within the Source - Path - Goal actions ?
PhD A: uh {vocalsound} ye uh uh b I uh I {disfmarker} u I understand
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad G: Those three ?
PhD A: uh but {disfmarker}
Grad C: And um how {disfmarker} how where is the end ? So that 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: No , no . There {disfmarker} a a actually by I think my question is simpler than that , um {vocalsound} is {disfmarker} OK , so you have an SPG action and {disfmarker} and it has three different um uh aspects um because you can either enter a building or view it or {disfmarker} or approach it and touch it or something . Um now you define uh another action , it 's {disfmarker} it 's called um uh s S P G - one
Grad C: Forced action or forced motion . Yeah .
PhD A: action a different action . Um and this {disfmarker} uh action - two would have various variable possibilities of interpreting what you would like to do . And {disfmarker} i in {disfmarker} in a way similar to either Enter - View - Approach you may want to send a letter , read a letter , or dictate a letter , let 's say . So , h
Grad B: Oh the {disfmarker} OK uh maybe I 'd {disfmarker} The uh {disfmarker} These actions {disfmarker} I don't know if I 'm gonna answer your question or not with this , but the categories inside of action schemas , so , SPG action is a category . Real although I think what we 're specifying here is this is a category where the actions " enter , view and approach " would fall into because they have a related Source - Path - Goal schema in our tourist domain . Cuz viewing in a tourist domain is going up to it and {disfmarker} or actually going from one place to another to take a picture , in this {disfmarker} in a {disfmarker}
PhD A: Right . Oh , s so it 's sort of automatic derived fr from the structure that {disfmarker} that is built elsewhere .
Grad B: derived I don't know if I u
Grad E: This is a cate this a category structure here ,
Grad B: Right .
Grad E: right ? Action schema . What are some types of action schemas ? Well one of the types of action schemas is Source - Path - Goal action . And what are some types of that ? And an Enter , a View , an Approach .
Grad B: Right .
Grad C: Hmm .
Grad E: Those are all Source - Path - Goal actions .
Grad B: Inside of Enter there will be roles that can be filled basically . So if I want to go from outside to inside {vocalsound} then you 'd have the roles that need to filled , where you 'd have a Source - Path - Goal set of roles . So you 'd the Source would be outside and Path is to the door or whatever , right ?
PhD A: Right .
Grad B: So if you wanted to have a new type of action you 'd create a new type of category . Then this category would {disfmarker} we would put it {disfmarker} or not necessarily {disfmarker} We would put a new action in the m uh in the categories that {disfmarker} in which it has the um {disfmarker} Well , every action has a set of related schemas like Source - Path - Goal or force , whatever , right ?
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Right .
Grad B: So we would put " write a letter " in the categories uh that {disfmarker} in which it had {disfmarker} it w had uh schemas u
Grad E: There could be a communication event action or something like that
Grad B: Exactly .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: Schemas uh that of that type .
Grad E: and you could write it .
Grad B: And then later , you know , there {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} we have a communication event action where we 'd define it down there as {disfmarker}
Grad G: Hmm . So there 's a bit a redundancy , right ? in {disfmarker} in which the things that go into a particular {disfmarker} You have categories at the top under action schema and the things that go under a particular category are um supposed to have a corresponding schema definition for that type . So I guess what 's the function of having it up there too ? I mean I guess I 'm wondering whether {disfmarker} You could just have under action schema you could just sort of say whatever you know it 's gonna be Enter , View or Approach or whatever number of things
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: and pos partly because you need to know somewhere that those things fall into some categories . And it may be multiple categories as you say which is um the reason why it gets a little messy
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad G: um but if it has {disfmarker} if it 's supposed to be categorized in category X then the corresponding schema X will be among the structures that {disfmarker} that follow .
Grad B: Right . Well , this is one of things we were arguing about .
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad G: That 's like {disfmarker}
Grad C: th this is {disfmarker} this r
Grad G: OK , sorry .
Grad C: this is {disfmarker} this is more {disfmarker} this is probably the way that th that 's the way that seemed more intuitive to Johno I guess
Grad G: You didn't tell me to {disfmarker}
Grad C: also for a while {disfmarker} for
Grad G: Uh - huh . But now you guys have seen the light .
Grad C: No , no , no . Uh we have not {disfmarker} we have not seen the light .
Grad B: No .
Grad G: So .
Grad B: The {disfmarker} the reason {disfmarker} One reason we 're doing it this way is in case there 's extra structure that 's in the Enter action that 's not captured by the schemas ,
Grad G: I it 's easy to go back and forth isn't it ? Uh - huh . I agree . Right . Right .
Grad B: right ?
Grad G: Which is why I would think you would say Enter and then just say all the things that are relevant specifically to Enter . And then the things that are abstract will be in the abstract things as well . And that 's why the bindings become useful .
Grad B: Right , but {disfmarker}
Grad E: Ri - You 'd like {disfmarker} so you 're saying you could practically turn this structure inside out ? or something , or {disfmarker} ?
Grad G: Um Ye - I see what you mean by that ,
Grad C: No basically w
Grad G: but I {disfmarker} I don't if I would {disfmarker} I would need to have t have that .
Grad C: Get {disfmarker} get rid of the sort of SPG slash something uh or the sub - actions category ,
Grad G: Right .
Grad C: because what does that tell us ?
Grad G: Uh - huh . Yeah .
Grad C: Um and I agree that you know this is something we need to discuss ,
Grad G: I in fact what you could say is for Enter ,
Grad C: yeah .
Grad G: you could say " here , list all the kinds of schemas that {disfmarker} on the category that {disfmarker}
Grad E: List all the parent categories .
Grad G: you know i list all the parent categories " . It 's just like a frame hierarchy ,
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad G: right ?
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: like you have these blended frames . So you would say enter and you 'd say my parent frames are such - and - such , h and then those are the ones that actually you then actually define and say how the roles bind to your specific roles which will probably be f richer and fuller and have other stuff in there .
Grad E: Yeah . This sounds like a paper I 've read around here recently in terms of {disfmarker}
Grad G: Yeah it could {vocalsound} be not a coincidence . Like I said , I 'm sure I 'm just hitting everything with a hammer that I developed ,
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad G: but I mean you know uh it 's {disfmarker} I 'm just telling you what I think , you just hit the button and it 's like {disfmarker}
Grad C: And , I guess fr uh
Grad E: Yeah I mean but there 's a good question here . Like , I mean uh do you {disfmarker} When do you need {disfmarker} Damn this headset ! When you this uh , eh {disfmarker}
Grad G: Metacomment .
Grad E: Yeah . {comment} That 's all recorded . Um . Why do you {disfmarker}
Grad G: " Damn this project . " No just kidding .
Grad E: I don't know . Like {disfmarker} How do I {disfmarker} how do I come at this question ? Um . I just don't see why you would {disfmarker} I mean does th Who uses this uh {disfmarker} this data structure ? You know ? Like , do you say " alright I 'm going to uh {disfmarker} {pause} do an SPG action " . And then you know somebody ne either the computer or the user says " alright , well , I know I want to do a Source - Path - Goal action so what are my choices among that ? " And " oh , OK , so I can do an Enter - View - Approach " . It 's not like that , right ? It 's more like you say " I want to , uh {disfmarker} {pause} I want to do an Enter . "
Grad B: Well only one of {disfmarker}
Grad E: And then you 're more interested in knowing what the parent categories are of that . Right ? So that the um {disfmarker} the uh sort of representation that you were just talking about seems more relevant to the kinds of things you would have to do ?
Grad B: I 'd {disfmarker} I
Grad G: Hmm .
Grad B: I think I 'd {disfmarker} I 'm not sure if I understand your question . Only one of those things are gonna be lit up when we pass this on . So only Enter will be {disfmarker}
Grad E: OK .
Grad B: if we {disfmarker} if our {disfmarker} if our module decided that Enter is the case , View and Approach will not be there .
Grad E: OK . OK .
Grad C: Well {vocalsound} uh it 's {disfmarker} it sort of came into my mind that sometimes even two could be on , and would be interesting .
Grad G: Yeah .
Grad C: um nevertheless um
Grad E: Mayb - Well maybe I 'm not understanding where this comes from and where this goes to .
Grad B: Well in that case , we can't {disfmarker} we can't w if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}
Grad C: l let 's {disfmarker} let 's not {disfmarker}
Grad G: OK .
Grad B: well the thing is if that 's the case we {disfmarker} our {disfmarker} I don't think our system can handle that currently .
Grad E: What are we doing with this ?
Grad C: No , not at all . But {disfmarker} U s {vocalsound} t So {disfmarker}
Grad E: In principle .
Grad G: " Approach and then enter . "
Grad C: the {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} in some sense we {disfmarker} we ex get the task done extremely well
Grad G: Run like this uh {disfmarker}
Grad C: because this is exactly the discussion we need {disfmarker} need .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Period . No more qualifiers than that . So .
Grad G: No , this is the useful ,
Grad C: and um and {disfmarker} and I th I hope
Grad G: you know , don don't worry .
Grad C: um uh let 's make a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a sharper claim . We will not end this discussion anytime soon .
Grad G: Yeah , I can guarantee that .
Grad C: And it 's gonna get more and more complex the {disfmarker} the l complexer and larger our domains get .
Grad E: Sigh .
Grad C: And I think um we will have all of our points in writing pretty soon . So this is nice about being being recorded also . The um {disfmarker}
Grad E: Right .
Undergrad D: That 's true .
Grad B: The r uh the {disfmarker} in terms of why is {disfmarker} it 's laid out like this versus some other {disfmarker}
Grad C: the people {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad B: um that 's kind of a contentious point between the two of us but {vocalsound} this is one wa so this is a way to link uh the way these roles are filled out to the action .
Grad E: In my view .
Grad B: Because if we know that Enter is a t is an SPG action ,
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: right ?
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: we know to look for an SPG schema and put the appropriate {disfmarker} fill in the appropriate roles later on .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Grad G: And you could have also indicated that by saying " Enter , what are the kinds of action I am ? "
Grad C: Mm - hmm , yeah .
Grad B: Right .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad G: Right ? So there 's just like sort of reverse organization , right ? So like unless @ @ {disfmarker} Are there reasons why one is better than the other I mean that come from other sources ?
Grad E: Again {disfmarker}
Grad C: Yes because nobod no the modules don't {disfmarker}
Grad G: Yeah . uh
Grad C: This is {disfmarker} this is a schema that defines XML messages that are passed from one module to another ,
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: mainly meaning from the natural language understanding , or from the deep language understanding to the action planner .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Now the {disfmarker} the reason for {disfmarker} for not using this approach is because you always will have to go back , each module will try {disfmarker} have to go back to look up which uh you know entity can have which uh , you know , entity can have which parents , and then {disfmarker} So you always need the whole body of {disfmarker} of y your model um to figure out what belongs to what . Or you always send it along with it ,
Grad G: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad C: nuh ? So you always send up " here I am {disfmarker} I am this person , and I can have these parents " in every message .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: which e
Grad G: OK , so it 's just like a pain to have to send it .
Grad C: It may or may not be a just a pain it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I 'm completely willing to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to throw all of this away
Grad G: OK , I understand .
Grad C: and completely redo it ,
Grad E: Well {disfmarker}
Grad C: you know and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and it after some iterations we may just do that .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: I {disfmarker} I would just like to ask um like , if it could happen for next time , I mean , just beca cuz I 'm new
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: and I don't really just {disfmarker} I just don't know what to make of this and what this is for , and stuff like that , you know , so if someone could make an example of what would actually be in it ,
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad E: like first of all what modules are talking to each other using this ,
Grad C: Yeah , we {disfmarker} I will promise for the next time to have fleshed out N {comment} XML examples for a {disfmarker} a run through and {disfmarker} and see how this {disfmarker} this then translates ,
Grad E: right ? And {disfmarker} OK .
Grad C: and how this can come about ,
Grad G: Be great .
Grad C: nuh ? including the sort of " miracle occurs here " um part .
Grad E: Right .
Grad C: And um is there more to be said ? I think um {disfmarker} In principle what I {disfmarker} I think that this approach does , and e e whether or not we take the Enter - View and we all throw up {disfmarker} up the ladder um wha how do how does Professor Peter call that ?
Grad G: Yeah .
Grad C: The uh hhh , {comment} silence su sublimination ? Throwing somebody up the stairs ? Have you never read the Peter 's Principle anyone here ?
Grad E: Nope .
PhD A: Oh , uh
Grad F: People reach their level of uh max their level of {disfmarker} at which they 're incompetent or whatever .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad C: Maximum incompetence
PhD A: Yeah . Right , right .
Grad C: and then you can throw them up the stairs
Grad E: Alright .
Grad G: Oh !
Grad C: um . Yeah .
PhD A: Promote them , yeah .
Grad C: OK , so we can promote Enter - View all {disfmarker} all up a bit and and get rid of the uh blah - blah - X - blah uh asterisk sub - action item altogether . No {disfmarker} no problem with that
Grad E: OK .
Grad C: and we {disfmarker} w we {disfmarker} we will play around with all of them but the principal distinction between having the {disfmarker} the pure schema and their instantiations on the one hand , and adding some whatever , more intention oriented specification um on parallel to that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} this approach seems to be uh workable to me . I don't know . If you all share that opinion then that made my day much happier .
Grad B: This is a simple way to basically link uh roles to actions .
Grad G: Uh yeah wait {disfmarker} R Yeah , yeah . That 's fine .
Grad B: That 's the {disfmarker} that was the intent of {disfmarker} of it , basically .
Grad E: Sure . Sure .
Grad G: Uh that 's true .
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad G: Although um roles {disfmarker}
Grad B: So I {disfmarker} I do I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm not {disfmarker}
Grad C: I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm never happy when he uses the word " roles " ,
Grad G: Yeah I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}
Grad C: I 'm {disfmarker}
Grad G: Yeah . I was going to {disfmarker}
Grad B: I b I mean ROLLS so
Grad G: Bread rolls ?
Grad E: Oh you meant pastries , then ?
Grad B: Yeah , pastries is what I 'm talking about .
Grad G: Pastry oh ba oh the bak bakery example .
Undergrad D: Bakery . Bakery .
Grad E: This is the bakery example . Got it . Alright .
Grad G: I see . Right . OK .
Grad E: Help !
Grad G: I guess I 'll agree to that , then .
Grad C: OK . That 's all I have for today . Oh no , there 's one more issue . Bhaskara brought that one up . Meeting time rescheduling .
Grad G: I n Didn't you say something about Friday ,
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad G: or {disfmarker} ? Hmm .
Grad C: So it looks like you have not been partaking , the Monday at three o ' clock time has turned out to be not good anymore . So people have been thinking about an alternative time and the one we came up with is Friday two - thirty ? three ? What was it ?
Grad B: You have class until two , right ? so if we don't want him {disfmarker} if we don't want him to run over here
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Two - th Two - thirty - ish or three or Friday at three or something around that time .
Grad G: So do I . Yeah .
Grad B: two thirty - ish or three is {disfmarker}
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Yeah . Yeah . e
Grad C: Um how {disfmarker} how are your {disfmarker}
Grad G: That would be good .
PhD A: uh Friday uh Yeah , that 's fine .
Grad C: And I know that you have until three {disfmarker} You 're busy ?
Grad E: Uh {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: Yeah .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad G: So three is {disfmarker} sounds good ?
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad G: I 'll be free by then .
Grad E: I could do that . Yeah I mean earlier on Friday is better but three {disfmarker} you know I mean {disfmarker} if it were a three or a three thirty time then I would take the three or whatever ,
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: but yeah sure three is fine .
Grad C: Yeah , and you can always make it shortly after three probably .
Grad E: I mean .
Undergrad D: Yeah , and I don't need to be here particularly deeply .
Grad C: Often , no , but uh ,
Undergrad D: Yeah .
Grad C: whenever .
Undergrad D: But yeah .
Grad C: You are more than welcome if you think that this kind of discussion gets you anywhere in {disfmarker} in your life then uh you 're free to c
Undergrad D: It 's fascinating .
Grad G: " That 's the right answer . "
Undergrad D: I 'm just glad that I don't have to work it out
Grad C:
Undergrad D: because .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad C: Hmm ?
Undergrad D: I 'm just glad that don't have to work it out myself , that I 'm not involved at all in the working out of it because .
Grad C: Uh but you 're a linguist .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad C: You should {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: Oh yeah . That 's why I 'm glad that I 'm not involved in working it out .
Grad C: OK .
PhD A: So it 's at Friday at three ? there that 's
Grad C: And um
Grad E: So already again this week ,
Grad C: How diligent do we feel ?
Grad E: huh ?
Grad C: Yeah . Do feel that we have done our chores for this week or {disfmarker}
Grad F: Yeah . So I mean clearly there 's {disfmarker} I can talk about the um the parser changes on Friday at least ,
Grad C: OK , Bhaskara will do the big show on Friday .
Grad F: so .
Grad G: And you guys will argue some more ?
Grad B: And between now and then yeah .
Grad E: Yeah . Between now and then .
Grad G: and have some ?
Grad C: We will {disfmarker} r
Grad E: Promise ?
Grad G: probably .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad B: We will . Don't worry .
Grad G: Yeah .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad G: And we 'll get the summary like , this {disfmarker} the c you know , short version , like {disfmarker}
PhD A: An - and I would like to second Keith 's request .
Grad G: S
PhD A: An example wo would be nice t to have kind of a detailed example .
Grad C: Yes .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad C: Yes . I 've {disfmarker} I 've {disfmarker} I 've {disfmarker} I guess I 'm on record for promising that now .
PhD A: OK .
Grad C: So um {disfmarker}
Grad G: Like have it {disfmarker} we 'll have it in writing . So . or , better , speech . So .
Grad C: This is it and um
Grad B: The other good thing about it is Jerry can be on here on Friday and he can weigh in as well .
Grad C: Yeah . and um if you can get that binding point also maybe with a nice example that would be helpful for Johno and me .
Grad G: Oh yeah uh OK . let 's uh yeah they 're {disfmarker}
Grad C: Give us {disfmarker}
Undergrad D: No problem ,
Grad E: I think you 've got one on hand ,
Undergrad D: yeah .
Grad E: huh ?
Grad G: I have several in my head , yeah . Always thinking about binding .
Grad C: Well the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the binding is technically no problem but it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} for me it seems to be conceptually important that we find out if we can s if {disfmarker} if there {disfmarker} if there are things in there that are sort of a general nature , we should distill them out and put them where the schemas are .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: If there are things that you know are intention - specific , then we should put them up somewhere , a
Grad G: So , in general they 'll be bindings across both intentions and the actions .
Grad C: Yep . That 's wonderful .
Grad G: So {disfmarker} Yeah . So it 's gen it 's general across all of these things
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad G: it 's like {disfmarker} I mean Shastri would say you know binding is like {vocalsound} an essential cognitive uh process . So . {vocalsound} Um .
Grad C: OK .
Grad G: So I don't think it will be isolated to one or the two , but you can definitely figure out where {disfmarker} Yeah , sometimes things belong and {disfmarker} So actually I 'm not sure {disfmarker} I would be curious to see how separate the intention part and the action part are in the system . Like I know the whole thing is like intention lattice , or something like that ,
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: right ? So is the ri right now are the ideas the rich {disfmarker} rich the RAD or whatever is one you know potential block inside intention . It 's still {disfmarker} it 's still mainly intention hypothesis
Grad C: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad G: and then that 's just one way to describe the {disfmarker} the action part of it .
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad G: OK .
Grad B: It 's an a attempt to refine it basically .
Grad C: It 's {disfmarker} And yeah ,
Grad G: OK , great uh - huh .
Grad C: it 's an {disfmarker} an {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's sort of {disfmarker}
Grad G: Not just that you want to go from here to here , it 's that the action is what you intend
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad G: and this action consists of all com complicated modules and image schemas and whatever .
Grad C: Yeah . And {disfmarker} and there will be a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a relatively high level of redundancy
Grad G: So .
Grad C: in the sense that um ultimately one {disfmarker}
Grad G: Mm - hmm . which is , yeah , It 's fine
Grad C: so th so that if we want to get really cocky we we will say " well if you really look at it , you just need our RAD . " You can throw the rest away , right ?
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Because you 're not gonna get anymore information out of the action a as you find it there in the domain object .
Grad G: Right . Right . Mm - hmm .
Grad C: But then again um in this case , the domain object may contain information that we don't really care about either . So .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: H But w we 'll see that then , and how {disfmarker} how it sort of evolves .
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: I mean if {disfmarker} if people really like our {disfmarker} our RAD , I mean w what might happen is that they will get rid of that action thing completely , you know , and leave it up for us to get the parser input um
Grad G: Mmm . We know the things that make use of this thing so that we can just change them so that they make use of RAD .
Grad C: Yeah . Yeah .
Undergrad D: You don't have to use the acronym .
Grad G: I can't believe we 're using this term . So I 'm like RAD ! Like every time I say it , it 's horrible . OK .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: I see what you mean .
Grad B: RAD 's a great term .
Grad G: Is the {disfmarker} But what is the " why " ?
Grad E: It 's rad , even !
Grad B: Why ?
Grad G: Why ?
Grad E: It happened to c be what it stands for .
Grad B: It just happened to be the acronym .
Grad C: Well {disfmarker}
Grad G: Yeah . That 's {disfmarker} doesn't make it a great term . It 's just like those jokes where you have to work on both levels .
Grad C: ye no but i
Undergrad D: Just think of it as {disfmarker} as " wheel " in German .
Grad C: but if you {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} if you work in th in that XML community it is a great acronym
Grad G: Do you see what I mean ? Like
Grad C: because it e evokes whatever RDF {disfmarker}
Grad G: Oh .
Grad C: RDF is the biggest thing right ? That 's the rich {disfmarker} sort of " Resource Description Framework "
Grad E: Oh " rich de "
Grad G: Oh .
Grad C: and um {disfmarker} and also {disfmarker} So , description , having the word d term " description " in there is wonderful ,
Grad G: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: uh " rich " is also great , rwww .
Grad F: Hmm .
Grad B: Who doesn't like to be a
Grad E: Everybody likes action .
Grad G: Oh .
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad G: Yeah . OK .
Grad E: Plus it 's hip . The kids 'll like it .
Grad G: But what if it 's not an action ?
Grad C: It 's {disfmarker} it 's rad ,
Undergrad D: Yeah all the kids 'll love it .
Grad F: Hmm .
Grad C: yeah .
Grad G: And intentions will be " RID " ? Like , " OK " . Um are the {disfmarker} are the sample data that you guys showed sometime ago {disfmarker} like the things {disfmarker} maybe {disfmarker} maybe you 're gonna run a trial tomorrow . I mean , I 'm just wondering whether the ac some the actual sentences from this domain will be available . Cuz it 'd be nice for me to like look if I 'm thinking about examples I 'm mostly looking at child language which you know will have some overlap but not total with the kinds of things that you guys are getting . So you showed some in this {disfmarker} here before
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: and maybe you 've posted it before but where would I look if I want to see ?
Grad C: Oh I {disfmarker} You want audio ?
Grad G: You know .
Grad C: or do you want transcript ?
Grad G: No just {disfmarker} just transcript .
Grad C: Yeah , well just transcript is just not available because nobody has transcribed it yet .
Grad G: Sorry .
Grad C: Um I can e I can uh I 'll transcribe it though .
Grad G: Oh , OK . I take that back then .
Grad C: It 's no problem .
Grad G: OK , well don't {disfmarker} don't make it a high priority {disfmarker}
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad G: I {disfmarker} In fact if you just tell me like you know like two examples
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad G: I mean , y The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the representational problems are {disfmarker} I 'm sure , will be there ,
Grad C: OK .
Grad G: like enough for me to think about . So .
Grad C: OK , so Friday , whoever wants and comes , and can .
Grad E: OK .
Grad G: OK .
Grad C: This Friday .
Grad G: Here . OK .
Grad C: The big parser show . Now you can all turn off your {disfmarker} | |
doc_177 | Project Manager: Good .
Industrial Designer: Beep . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Oh .
Project Manager: So well uh
User Interface: What ?
Project Manager: welcome everyone .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um as you may have noticed I uh
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: created separate folders because it was uh tending to get a little busy in our uh shared project documents uh folder .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I don't know if everybody uh put their own uh documents in the right folder , which is for now the detailed design meeting .
Marketing: That's new one ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: We didn't make any uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh , we should save that one . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh in {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Then I'll move this one .
User Interface: Didn't we just do that ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , save in the folder . Save as project .
User Interface: Oh .
Project Manager: Oh no , this is just one big document , so you can leave that wherever it is .
Industrial Designer: Oh , okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And we have a evaluation left here .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hmm hmm .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Agenda .
Project Manager: Well not main documents this time . Oh uh yes .
User Interface: Hmm ?
Project Manager: I have it open myself I guess . Um well the detailed design meeting {disfmarker} Huh ? We're finally getting somewhere hopefully .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um what are we going to do ? I've opened it already . Um I'm still going to take some minutes , and if I'm right , you two are going to give a prototype presentation ?
Industrial Designer: Oh , sorry .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Aren't you ?
User Interface: We could . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes , you are .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And uh m did you do something with evaluation criteria ?
Marketing: Yep . Yep .
Project Manager: Good . And we have a correct agenda . And uh then we have to look at something which is less nice , the finance uh aspect , whether we can afford what we have designed ,
User Interface: Oops . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and if we can we can uh commence the final part which is the production or project evaluation , how did we work together and what are the results , and how happy are we with those . Okay , well finance uh will be later . Now I'd like to give the word to you two .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well uh
Industrial Designer: Get up stand up . {gap} just {disfmarker}
User Interface: we made a prototype .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
User Interface: We first start with the overall uh {disfmarker} This is about the total remote control .
Industrial Designer: View .
User Interface: We made it green .
Industrial Designer: Just example colour ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so uh there's one of the colours we would like to uh see in our prototype .
User Interface: It's a fresh colour . And uh the screen light blue . Oh uh this the scroll button and the microphone on the on the sides here under . And the R_ and R_ logo , it just says R_ and R_ now , but uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay ?
User Interface: Any questions so far ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Big microphone .
Industrial Designer: {gap} yeah ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: just uh just an idea about how to m th that could also be possible .
Marketing: Oh okay . That's the place where it's going to be , not the size . {gap}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh well , it's an idea in a {disfmarker} so .
User Interface: Oh y you {disfmarker} perhaps you should make it a bit big , so people know it's there and uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Do not forget it .
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: To function it it doesn't really have to be sm uh big of course .
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: Yeah , okay . Of course .
Industrial Designer: The microphone could be just a minor uh hole uh on the left uh button .
Marketing: Mm . Mm , th yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay um
Marketing: Small .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} we also made some uh ideas about how uh the options menu would work . Uh using the scroll button on sides uh y uh I uh um {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: You push the scroll button
Industrial Designer: Yeah , you push the scroll button
User Interface: and it's claps out if there's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and a drop down menu or a pull out menu comes out and uh you get uh you get the options uh becoming available . For example uh T_V_ settings , uh remote settings , et cetera .
User Interface: Remote settings , et cetera . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So uh you can scroll down too with the scroll uh button , uh as you can see {disfmarker} oh , it's here , just push it in , uh the menu comes out like this and uh i it all becomes visible . Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . And you could also touch it so that it comes out ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's c
User Interface: and and use the the the scroll thing as a {disfmarker} with your fingers .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Indeed .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Okay , um it's also uh nice to see that um we made a small uh menu , uh the options menu uh becoming available when pressing the uh scroll uh button , and the opportunity to use the teletext , whi which is used uh {disfmarker} which should still be used and we think that it's uh very handy to put it uh not uh under the options menu , but in uh {disfmarker} Yes . In an apart uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So a separate button for for text ,
Industrial Designer: In a separate button , yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: okay .
User Interface: Perhaps we should use the teletext sign in p yeah .
Industrial Designer: A sign , yeah , just like {disfmarker} Okay , indeed .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay ,
User Interface: Forgot . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: we can uh modify that later . Okay . Would you like to make any comments about next uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh well , this is the total interface uh that f of the L_C_D_ screen . Uh the numbers , which is pretty straight forward . We put ano an an extra button in . We can erase it , but {disfmarker} It's the button where you can switch channels . {gap} just when you are one and you go to two , you can {disfmarker} or if you go to five , you can go back to one with that button . Yeah , that one , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Previous page , yeah , indeed .
User Interface: It has a name . And uh uh we put that in ,
Industrial Designer: Oh my God .
User Interface: I thought it would be handy there . Uh this the one number or two numbers button . Below that , the page and the sound . And uh in the middle the the mute . Uh battery indicator . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} It's quite large .
User Interface: It's {vocalsound} it's a bit big .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} And this is the uh the on off uh knop , the stand by uh knop . Or at least it should look like it . And the options uh of teletext .
Industrial Designer: Okay . You can see very clearly now that the uh teletext and options menu isn't uh taking uh much uh {disfmarker} uh it's taking much part of the screen , so it's very uh {disfmarker} when you uh {vocalsound} when you use it , doesn't uh become irritating to see .
User Interface: Huh .
Industrial Designer: 'Cause if you put it on the top you always get see the the options menu . 'Cause people regularly uh read from left top to right down ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . Well this about it , I think .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Huh .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Thank you . Looks good .
User Interface: I will put it back on the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} on the nice green .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And I just missed when I was typing {disfmarker} The R_R_ stands for ?
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: That's the logo of the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Logo , okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . It's th th right now it's only R_ R_ , but uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Full screen .
Project Manager: I would have recognised it if it were the right colours of course . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Shit .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Sorry . {vocalsound}
Marketing: 'Kay . {gap}
Project Manager: Okay , the evaluation criteria ,
User Interface: Oh full screen , yeah {vocalsound} {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Huh .
Project Manager: huh ?
Marketing: Evaluation . 'Kay , my task was this time to put up a questionnaire by which we can evaluate the design of the remote control by the questions we {gap} {disfmarker} requirements from the {disfmarker} of the users . My name , my job , okay .
Industrial Designer: My name , my job . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: The methods . Questionnaire with seven point scale from one to seven , from true to false ,
User Interface: Right .
Marketing: like question , is remote big enough , we can say it's true or it's false by steps . One means absolutely not true , seven {gap} {disfmarker} means true .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: The three important things of refa {vocalsound} {gap} are uh from th of this year is {disfmarker} are ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sorry ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: you used the PowerPoint {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: is the remote control fancy enough ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: is it in innovative enough , and is it easy enough to use . And then evaluation itself . Uh .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: What ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: So .
Industrial Designer: Bling .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: First question . Is the design fancy enough ?
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: Project Manager , what do you think ?
Project Manager: Well it's {disfmarker} looks fancy , especially with the green colour . And the the curves which we decided ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: But does it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: huh ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Only what happened to the single curve we spoke about last meeting ?
User Interface: It uh {disfmarker} oh it's in the background . Oh .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Now uh the single curved idea was uh {disfmarker} Yeah , okay , you ge um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Y you should make uh a sideways uh view .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . The sideways view , uh that that that ma
User Interface: It will be , I guess . Oh , we can {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ho not that pen . {vocalsound} Not that pen . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well
User Interface: g {vocalsound} I would {vocalsound} {disfmarker} smart board .
Project Manager: it might work one time , huh . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Suppose so .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh can I draw here or uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Think .
User Interface: Ooh .
Industrial Designer: Ah . Oh my God ,
Marketing: Yeah , yeah , you can .
User Interface: So it would be uh something like this from the side , but with a bit of uh curve here ,
Industrial Designer: it works .
User Interface: right ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's the single curve indeed .
User Interface: Yeah . So if you v flip it like this .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
User Interface: Here's {gap} yeah .
Industrial Designer: That's not very {disfmarker} i it's also uh very handy if you make a side curve way to make the the remote control very thin at the bottom uh at a bottom at a bottom . Uh make it uh rather thick on the top , because uh on the top it has uh the screen , which takes uh in some uh space , and the batteries can be located over there ,
User Interface: Yeah . So you just make the back of this part a bit bigger ,
Industrial Designer: so uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: so that it lays a bit o
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Isn't going to be a little bit heavy at the top ?
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , that's a bit of problem maybe .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No .
Marketing: With two batteries , the whole print plate and t and top , and if you're holding it quite a lot I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . I think yeah , the battery should be in here , because it's just nothing ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: so if you could {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay , indeed . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , but we have to rate uh these things now ?
User Interface: 'Cause otherwise I think i
Marketing: Yeah , we have to rate .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Is it fancy enough ? True is one , false is seven . So fancy enough means , does it comes to the younger people and the elder people .
User Interface: I think it does .
Industrial Designer: I think so .
User Interface: I if you don't make it green , then the elder people won't won't like it .
Industrial Designer: It's pretty fancy .
Marketing: I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah , I have to agree , all the colour colours don don doesn't matter that m that much now ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {gap} you get th
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: it's only design .
User Interface: I think it does .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: And the design .
Project Manager: Well I think uh especially because of the microphone and the L_C_D_ screen also .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . I don't know whether older people will use it , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Very new thing . Well {disfmarker} Fancy {gap} the old people will .
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: I would make it a two or something .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: A two ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {gap} It's true , it's a one . {vocalsound} Very fancy .
User Interface: Huh ? Alright , it's a one . {vocalsound} Oh it's a one . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No , it's a two . {vocalsound} Little bit strange we have to judge that ourselves , huh ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , I n used {disfmarker} I wouldn I should use that one , but it doesn't {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But it's a one uh {disfmarker} Maybe uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay , no it's two ? True is a one .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Very true , is it very true or isn't that true ?
Project Manager: Well I'd say two on a scale {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well they think it's very true , but uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's very true , because we designed it to be very fancy ,
Marketing: Yeah , I think two .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: so {disfmarker}
User Interface: but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's very fancy , I think .
User Interface: We should perhaps {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Have you ever seen a remote control like this ?
Project Manager: No , okay well , that's true . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No , okay ,
User Interface: That not .
Industrial Designer: so so it's fancy .
Marketing: That's fancy enough .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , one two .
Marketing: Then ?
Project Manager: That doesn't matter that much , so make it a one . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay . Let's give it a two . Is it innovative ?
User Interface: I think it is ,
Marketing: Enough .
Project Manager: Yeah
User Interface: because it has an L_C_D_ screen , a mi microphone .
Project Manager: m
Industrial Designer: And uh uh the scroll is rubber ,
User Interface: It's from rubber .
Marketing: We have for the search function .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so s Eno enough to {gap} I think .
Marketing: The scroller a bit {disfmarker} I think it's it's a one yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a one I think .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: True . Also huh uh-huh {disfmarker} the buttons , are they easy to find ? That was a big requirement of the old people .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , because they're right on your screen . So you can use the b the the arrows . They're right on your screen ,
Industrial Designer: Huh .
User Interface: so I don't know where you'd search .
Industrial Designer: With the ones {gap}
Marketing: Are all the buttons easy to find ? Not only this buttons , all the buttons .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well , I think they are . The options are it {disfmarker} uh little bit harder ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: but if you touch the options then it's uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Take a harder look , yeah , sure .
Marketing: I think th it's
Industrial Designer: It's easier than the regular uh remote control .
Marketing: easy t
Project Manager: Yeah , and you use these buttons the most ,
Marketing: Yeah , I think this is easy now . I think th I think the options buttons are not the the easiest way to to
Project Manager: huh ? So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: No they're not , but they're they're they are easy to find .
Marketing: to handle . True .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , they are a lot easier to find than uh th than on the regular remote controls
Marketing: I would rate it a {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh .
Industrial Designer: where you have to uh find out what {disfmarker} which sign or icon means on uh every button .
Marketing: Yeah , okay , that's true , that's true .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So
Industrial Designer: So you have t you have to use the the the manual to understand most {disfmarker}
Project Manager: which {disfmarker}
Marketing: But that's that's vantage of L_C_D_ screen , you can have text .
Project Manager: So which number are we going to fill in ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: I would say yeah .
Industrial Designer: I think it's uh it's a two , at least .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah ,
Project Manager: A two , yeah ?
User Interface: you can make it a two .
Project Manager: Two , three and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's not perfect , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: what do you think ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think it's a three .
Industrial Designer: A three ?
Project Manager: Okay , so we have two , two , three .
Industrial Designer: And why is that ?
Marketing: I personally think , because I d I don't think i maybe it's easy to use , it has to be easy to find right away . I I think if you have the button at the right , I don't think you can find the option button that easy .
User Interface: Yeah , but you don't have t have to use the button on the right . You can touch it .
Marketing: You can touch it .
User Interface: Yeah . You you can touch options .
Industrial Designer: It said bo both the options .
Marketing: Yeah , okay , but you have y then you have here s written option on here , the teletext button ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: right ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay , then okay , good . Then I think also two , yeah .
User Interface: You can touch options
Project Manager: A two , okay ,
User Interface: and it's comes out .
Project Manager: because we have to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: A two , a two .
Marketing: Yep .
User Interface: {vocalsound} The uh the um {disfmarker} Below .
Project Manager: It's the box below it ,
Industrial Designer: Uh the next question the next question .
Project Manager: huh ?
Industrial Designer: Oh my God .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Otherwise we have two results in one question .
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's different .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , next question .
Marketing: It's easy to use , as well for younger as elderl elderly people .
User Interface: For young people I think it's easy to use .
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: Young means sixteen to forty years .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I was {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: And elderly from forty eight to their death .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: I think it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think it's the most useful uh remote control ever to be manufactured . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} In the entire mankind .
Project Manager: Okay , you're very enthusiastic about your own design ,
Marketing: Also if you're sixty years old {disfmarker}
Project Manager: huh ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but because it has the regular uh controls , li uh as you can see in the screen now , and uh you don't have all the other options uh always uh on your screen .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So it's t I think it's really easy to use . You want these options to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Also
Project Manager: As well for the for the older people ?
Industrial Designer: Uh sure .
Marketing: Yeah , as well as your {disfmarker} if you're fif sixty years old , you're holding one of those things in your hand {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , but uh {disfmarker} Yeah , but they they don't want the uh extra options , right ?
Marketing: No , but we're going to th make this f for a all kind of people ,
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And would it be easy for them to use the speech recognition ?
User Interface: Yeah , okay ,
Marketing: so it it it has to be {disfmarker}
User Interface: but so they could {disfmarker} Uh I think it is . If they read a manual .
Project Manager: Because that might {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} If you read the manual ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , alright . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Perhaps that is one of the most uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap} always .
Project Manager: M maybe that's the most user friendly and easy to use .
User Interface: Because it it's not it's not it's it's not uh difficult .
Industrial Designer: Uh because a lot of {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: You say you say uh record to to the to the speech recognition ,
Industrial Designer: Channel one , channel four , yeah .
User Interface: then you say the question and the answer . And that's everything it does , the speech recognition .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , well maybe that would make it even more easy to use for them .
User Interface: Yeah . I think it would make it uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I think it does .
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Because all the people who can't uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: I would make it two .
Marketing: Also two ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh a two . Sure , two .
Marketing: Not a seven for this {gap} ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Three ?
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Project Manager: I'd say three .
Marketing: I would also say three .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , so we have three three two two
User Interface: Oh . You ?
Project Manager: or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Two .
User Interface: Oh .
Project Manager: So what are we going to do ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well {disfmarker} Two and a half . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , a three , I see . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Three ? No . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Give me more .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Another question .
Marketing: Remotes overwhelmed with buttons .
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: No .
Marketing: No , that that's that's {disfmarker}
User Interface: But um I mean ,
Marketing: yeah .
User Interface: that's definitely one .
Marketing: Tha that's a one , I think , that's definitely a one .
Industrial Designer: That's definitely our uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh nee , oh seven is it ? It is .
Marketing: No ?
User Interface: Yeah , uh
Marketing: Oh yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah ,
User Interface: the remote score .
Industrial Designer: A false , yeah .
Project Manager: but I think you should make it one scale with with one being good and seven being bad ,
Marketing: Yeah , I think isn't , this has to be something like isn't overwhelmed .
Project Manager: because otherwise we can't uh calculate anything from the results ,
User Interface: It's not overwhelmed . Yeah .
Project Manager: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , indeed .
Marketing: True .
Project Manager: Okay , a one ,
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: because we designed for that , huh ?
Marketing: Remote control has uh colours that different {disfmarker} that meet different target groups .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap}
User Interface: 'Cause we make them in different colours ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: so that they uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: is optional .
Project Manager: Yeah , and I though w we had about single colours ,
Marketing: That's true .
Project Manager: but you can also make uh a wood colour , not just one single colour but a wood-like thing ,
User Interface: Yeah . That it that it looks like wood , like something , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Huh .
Project Manager: can't you ?
Marketing: Also with rubber ?
User Interface: Uh I think you can .
Project Manager: Whether it looks like wood , it isn't w it isn't wood
Marketing: Yeah , okay .
Project Manager: but {disfmarker}
User Interface: It it feels like rubber ,
Project Manager: You can make a print on rubber ,
User Interface: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: can't you ? Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So that's a one then ,
User Interface: Well but then when you scratch it it does come off .
Marketing: Yeah ?
Project Manager: huh ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's a one ?
User Interface: So that's a bit {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it is it is harder to
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Do you have many questions ?
Marketing: Uh I have {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: to like {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh , okay well {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh we have time . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Geez .
Project Manager: Yeah , but we have {disfmarker} We also {disfmarker} We have to get to the money . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We're getting paid . We're getting paid . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} The material used is spongy ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} What ?
Marketing: that that's uh that's a one , that's m rubber .
Project Manager: What {gap} spongy .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah , it's very spongy .
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Marketing: Yeah ,
User Interface: Oh
Marketing: I th think it's not the most spongy thing .
User Interface: but not {disfmarker} it's not very spongy , because it's hard rubber . I think it's a three .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's a three ,
Project Manager: Uh-huh , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: because you want to make it uh rather flexible but not too flexible ,
User Interface: Hard but {disfmarker} Yeah . You can {vocalsound} break it .
Industrial Designer: because it has a L_C_D_ screen . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hard to lose ,
Marketing: Remote control is hard to lose .
Industrial Designer: yeah it sh and it's easy to find .
User Interface: Y yeah , you could you could call it .
Marketing: Y you can't you can't lose it if you're sixty years old . If first time see the thing you didn didn't adjust uh {disfmarker} set the microphone , and then you lose it , then you have lost it .
User Interface: Yeah , y you can lose it , but it isn't hard to lose .
Marketing: It isn't hard , no . I think I think this is a two , personally .
User Interface: Two . That it's hard to lose ?
Marketing: No .
User Interface: Yeah , it it is {disfmarker} there's the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Isn't hard to lose .
Project Manager: so isn't hard to lose you . {vocalsound}
User Interface: it's a six , you think ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Isn't hard to lose , yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Isn't hard to lose .
User Interface: So it's a two . Yeah , you can lose it , so I don't {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . You can't lose it .
User Interface: you can make it a three I {gap} {disfmarker} It does have an {disfmarker} a built in function .
Marketing: Or if you're you're sixty years old , your demands {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , but a har A hard to lose is good . So it should {disfmarker} this question should be hard to lose . It's difficult to lose it .
User Interface: Nee . Hard to lose . Oh right .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , this this is hard to lose .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It is hard to lose . Yeah , so then this is {disfmarker} it is almost true ,
Industrial Designer: This {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: A two .
Marketing: I think {disfmarker} yeah , I think also .
User Interface: so a two .
Project Manager: A two .
Industrial Designer: Two , yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And most all because of the option to {disfmarker} Whoa .
Marketing: Huh ?
User Interface: Ooh . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , it's okay . That happens above also . But maybe when you scroll away and back it will be normal ,
User Interface: Oh .
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Marketing: Yeah ? Oh , okay .
Project Manager: but {disfmarker} Yep . Oh ,
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: it isn't ,
User Interface: Oh well ,
Project Manager: well okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: it doesn't .
Industrial Designer: {gap} put the cor cursor {gap} on the {gap} .
Project Manager: Remember .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay okay okay .
Industrial Designer: Click .
Marketing: Remote control mainly be sold to younger people .
User Interface: I think it will ,
Industrial Designer: True .
User Interface: yeah .
Industrial Designer: True . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah ? True ? Very true ?
User Interface: Uh well
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: There .
User Interface: I {disfmarker} a
Marketing: No , I don't think very true because the colours .
User Interface: a two . {vocalsound}
Marketing: We have the colours . Um we have the buttons is {disfmarker} aren't that that much .
Industrial Designer: Materials , yeah .
Marketing: Nah , the material isn't that {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's it's much more younger .
Industrial Designer: Uh okay . So ma uh make it make it a two .
Marketing: So I don I think I think it's a three .
Project Manager: Well I think it's it's uh a lower number , so better because w we designed it for young people especially ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah ,
Project Manager: didn't we ?
User Interface: I think it's a two
Marketing: but I uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay , okay .
Project Manager: What do you think ?
Marketing: I think because {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Questions ?
Industrial Designer: A two ? I think it's two . I think it's two too , two too too .
Project Manager: Two . Uh-huh . {vocalsound}
Marketing: yeah ?
User Interface: Two two two . {vocalsound} Let's make everything a two .
Marketing: In the features ?
Project Manager: Dissatisfy younger people . Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Younger people . It has {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well perhaps not .
User Interface: What did {disfmarker}
Marketing: Because younger peoples are cr critical and they wanted a lot of features on this thing .
User Interface: Yeah . Well that {disfmarker} it doesn't .
Industrial Designer: Well , n not exactly but uh uh if it had some games on it or something like that ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah bu but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but it's for a remote control I think it i {vocalsound} it would satisfy those needs .
User Interface: I think they like the speech . You could call to your uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , the speech possibility ,
User Interface: yeah , and the screen ,
Industrial Designer: the colours .
Marketing: L_C_D_ screen and scroll .
User Interface: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Scroll options , yeah .
Marketing: I I think they'll be quite met with their expectations .
Project Manager: Yeah , but those are more fancy functions , not not really many features or something .
User Interface: Right , that that that {disfmarker}
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: It has relatively few features ,
User Interface: those are features .
Marketing: It's three features , basically ,
Project Manager: with {disfmarker}
Marketing: the L_C_D_ {gap} touch screen is feature .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: No ,
Marketing: The microphone is a feature .
User Interface: aren't the features {disfmarker} the microphone's feature and that you can change the channel's feature , and that you can change the volume is feature ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: and that you can change the options of the remote , uh uh something like that . Yeah .
Project Manager: Ours had other features with {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , okay . I think {disfmarker} yeah , and then you have the audio settings , channel setting , video settings .
Industrial Designer: The easy volume up button .
User Interface: Those are features .
Industrial Designer: Remote {disfmarker} younger people usually use the remote control to put on the volume . {vocalsound} Turn uh turn up the volume .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Enough features ?
Marketing: So I've chos I shou I think it's it's it's a one . Personally , yeah . I think once you've {disfmarker} 'cause you have the channel features b uh you have the uh screen features , audio features , the {disfmarker} you have all buttons on it which you'd like , microphone extra , L_C_D_ screen extra , scroll thing extra .
Project Manager: Okay , you think one ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: what do you think ?
User Interface: I think two or three .
Project Manager: You . {gap} three , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Two .
Project Manager: I'd say three , so two it is then
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah uh a two a two . {vocalsound} Just another two . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Make it make it a two .
Project Manager: or {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: One two three . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Or make it uh a fucking two .
User Interface: We like two . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: You can see the remote control is {gap} R_ and R_ .
User Interface: Yeah , there's R_ and R_ in front .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: {gap} Has {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh it's not the colour , so maybe you should make two , but it has R_ and R_ .
Marketing: oh yeah , do did have {disfmarker} nah y you have the black one .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: And we'll probably make also a yellow one .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah ,
Project Manager: Yeah ,
User Interface: but not R_ and R_ yellow I think .
Project Manager: maybe maybe two . Well m th but the logo is on on the front ,
Industrial Designer: Okay , true , yeah .
Marketing: Maybe two .
Project Manager: so {disfmarker} a two , yeah ,
User Interface: One d on i it's the colours and the {disfmarker}
Marketing: X_ marks spot . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: And the menu is avail that is available is easy to use . {vocalsound}
User Interface: I think it is , but I don't know what you think .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I think it's easier to use than a regular remote control , because when you push on the options menu , you get the the the various options uh entirely explained . Entirely explained .
Marketing: Yeah , tha that's so true . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Instead of uh just finding out what an icon means on a button .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah , uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: And you can navigate easier , because wi with the {disfmarker} you have to push the the the arrows and {disfmarker} with a normal T_V_ uh remote .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , you can navigate . Uh .
Marketing: I think that wou that would be quite hard to learn to use it .
Industrial Designer: You're not satisfied , okay . Let's start over again then . {vocalsound}
Marketing: No , I'm not not convinc . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Let's make a different remote . Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Let's go th for {vocalsound} inhalation of air]
User Interface: Menu .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think it would be a t yeah , two .
User Interface: A two ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} A two .
Marketing: Now lower . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh , well that's that's pretty good ,
User Interface: We only have twos . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: huh ?
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah , I think so . Yeah .
User Interface: Uh just twos . One three and a few ones .
Industrial Designer: And three .
Marketing: So okay , we have one three , a one , that that have to got up . {gap}
User Interface: Two threes .
Marketing: Two two two two two .
User Interface: We m mostly have twos , so it's pretty good .
Marketing: So two , yeah . The average is a two .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: The average . {vocalsound}
Marketing: That is quite good
User Interface: Yeah . I think so too .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I think so .
Marketing: in my opinion . That {gap}
User Interface: We can be happy .
Marketing: Ooh .
Industrial Designer: Save . {vocalsound} {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Ooh .
User Interface: What is it ? It's like a bug or something .
Industrial Designer: It's a fly .
User Interface: A fly , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Oh m
User Interface: A f butterfly .
Marketing: Top .
User Interface: Yeah . That's it .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: That was your evaluation uh show ,
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: okay , so we don't have to calculate anything because of um these results .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Sure .
Marketing: No , it's two . The average is two .
Project Manager: Okay , good .
User Interface: It's good . Yeah .
Project Manager: Um let's see {disfmarker} oh , it isn't asked to save but it did already {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Exactly .
Marketing: Yeah , I uh uh I uh saved it .
Project Manager: And this {gap} Everything okay . Well , the next part uh might be a little bit difficult to do in a group , but I am willing to try it .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Because we are going to look at the finance and I have a nice Excel sheet to do that .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Redesign . No . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And um I'm not sure if I put it in the project folder . {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap}
Project Manager: look on that . Um and we're going to calculate the production costs , and if they are uh under or at twelve Euro fifty ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: we're good , and if they're not we're going to uh re-design ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: but we have to do that uh very very quick I think ,
User Interface: So we're going to erase features or something .
Project Manager: yes . Um I don't know if I
User Interface: Do you have the cost
Project Manager: put the Excel sheet in the
User Interface: or uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Let's hope .
Project Manager: n not in the
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} f fifty five Euros .
Project Manager: folder . I think it's
User Interface: {vocalsound} We're going to be here at eight o'clock . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think it's still in my own documents folder .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: We're goin still going to be here at eight o'clock . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: Oh shit .
User Interface: I doubt it . Perhaps we've got features that don't exist in the Excel sheet .
Marketing: Yeah mm yeah , maybe .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} No ,
Marketing: The microphone . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: it was in my uh my information , so uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It i It wasn't too much .
Marketing: Yeah ? {gap}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: maybe you're going scrap scrap it .
Industrial Designer: As well as the L_C_D_ screen . Whoa . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , well this is it .
User Interface: Well , if it doesn't work {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um maybe I could ask one of you to uh fill it in , so that I can also uh take minutes ,
User Interface: I want to fill it in , but uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and uh maybe the other can uh use that thing to count uh numerous functions .
Marketing: No prob . Ah .
User Interface: But you should uh direct {disfmarker}
Marketing: Count it ? Li like write it be
Project Manager: Well we have to count some things and we have to think about some things . But you have to fill in this column , huh ?
Industrial Designer: Count it . You got Excel to count . {vocalsound}
User Interface: The number of {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: No , uh count uh number of functions , because for every button you have to pay {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh okay .
Project Manager: and there are different screen shots , so {disfmarker} or different different screens ,
Industrial Designer: Well I dra
Marketing: Ah , okay , cool .
Industrial Designer: uh Danny , Danny , I'll do that ,
Marketing: Huh ? Yeah ? Oh , yea yeah , you design it . Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: because I draw the uh
Project Manager: so {disfmarker}
User Interface: We've got a battery , one or t two batteries , or not ? nee one battery , with two small batteries .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , but it's it's more about the energy source , huh ? Do you use a hand dynamo , a battery , kinetic or solar cells ?
User Interface: Yeah . I would do a battery {disfmarker} we do . Right ?
Marketing: Solar cell . No
Project Manager: We'll wait .
User Interface: A battery . One battery ,
Industrial Designer: No , no solar cell , no no no no .
Marketing: it took a battery ?
User Interface: right ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: No hand dynamo .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Electronics , simple chip {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Hand {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: We have {disfmarker}
User Interface: advanced chip , right ?
Marketing: No , we have sample speaker .
Industrial Designer: On advanced chip .
Marketing: But b al but we also have sample speaker , do
User Interface: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: so this one and this one . Uh we ha we have um single {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh , we already on nine .
User Interface: what ? Are we ? Oh yay .
Marketing: We have double curved .
User Interface: {vocalsound} The single .
Industrial Designer: Single nee single curved . Double curved was uh uh see uh ju three dimensional .
Marketing: Single .
Industrial Designer: But it isn't three dimensional ,
User Interface: Oh the the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: it isn't curved in a l
Marketing: This one is {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: it's not going to work uh people . We have rubber .
Marketing: This one is curved like this ,
Project Manager: I'll just fill it in .
Marketing: right . It's curved like this .
Industrial Designer: No no no ,
Project Manager: Um rubber indeed ?
Industrial Designer: single curved is like this . Uh that's the only curve you made ,
Marketing: Yeah , bu what {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: not th uh curved like that . That's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh , but we have curves like it and it .
User Interface: Thirteen ?
Marketing: There are two curves , right ? Oh , okay I understand , I understand .
User Interface: With a scroll wheel ,
Industrial Designer: Huh ?
User Interface: right ? Is he integrated ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Rubber .
User Interface: No , eh ? I don't know .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
Marketing: Push button . No , we don't have push button .
Industrial Designer: we gotta integrate scroll wheel and push button , because when you push it and you w it won't just pu uh makes possible to s
User Interface: Oh yeah , right , we want it to {disfmarker} it's not it's not {disfmarker} no . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Not going to work ?
Marketing: L_C_D_ display .
User Interface: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Okay um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Fifteen , oh , too bad . {vocalsound} Oh but with special colour we have . A special form , right ?
Industrial Designer: But now button supplements . We don't got the button supplements .
User Interface: Oh , we don't have any buttons , so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Eighteen and a half ,
User Interface: Yeah , we need to uh
Marketing: damn .
Industrial Designer: Damn .
Marketing: We have to lower it with six points .
User Interface: No , uh we have fifteen and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Twelve and half .
User Interface: oh , right . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: We could lose the curve .
Industrial Designer: Nah .
Marketing: We could use {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , I would lose the curve .
Industrial Designer: We could lose the scroll wheel . You could make it just a regular scroll wheel .
User Interface: But you can't push it , so you have to tap .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , if you can't push it you have to tap the the options window uh button here and then uh scroll down with the d with uh {vocalsound} with uh the button .
User Interface: Yeah , alright .
Project Manager: Yeah , I think that will be our best bet .
User Interface: So normal scroll wheel ?
Industrial Designer: Normal scroll wheel .
User Interface: And I think we should lose the curve .
Marketing: I think we should scrap the sample speaker .
Industrial Designer: Lose {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's four pri it four units .
User Interface: Yeah , but if you {disfmarker} would i it is a new feature , it it's something special .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so we don't exactly need the single {disfmarker} We don't need a curve .
Marketing: But w d wha
User Interface: No , the curve doesn't really {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: 'S possible to lose curve .
Marketing: Curved then it will be square .
User Interface: No , then it will {disfmarker} won't uh stand up from the table . Then it would just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Was that {disfmarker} does that mean to it , single curve ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's meant with scr uh with s curve .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: The curve is uh in a dimension .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: If you make it a flat one , s n it's no curve , you got no curves .
User Interface: So {disfmarker} We would lose this one ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , okay .
Marketing: Yeah , but tha that that only is one .
User Interface: Yeah , we could s yeah , a bit .
Industrial Designer: No , two .
Marketing: No , one .
User Interface: Sixteen point three .
Industrial Designer: Oh , okay , indeed .
Marketing: So we don't {disfmarker}
User Interface: So we still {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , we also have to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Is it possible to make {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Could could we do it on a regular chip on print or something ?
Marketing: No , otherwise we don't have an L_C_D_ screen .
User Interface: No ? Ma y you just can't do that , or uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: And what did you change ? You changed the uh scroll wheel
User Interface: We changed th
Project Manager: and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , and the single curved to uncurved .
Marketing: Single curved .
Project Manager: Oh , but it's just one
Marketing: Flat . Yeah , so that does doesn't doesn't that mu I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: point , so maybe you should should uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: No .
Marketing: Scrap sample speaker ?
Project Manager: Yeah , you should you should drop the speech recognition .
Industrial Designer: The sample speaker is two d wait , f s four points .
Marketing: That that's uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , but it's t
Marketing: Yes , four points .
Project Manager: And then you can keep the curve .
User Interface: Yeah , but it is uh it it is a new feature ,
Project Manager: Or can't you ?
User Interface: it is something special .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , uh becau uh when you lose the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , but what what else what else uh do you want to scrap ?
User Interface: I don't know .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: F You have to {disfmarker} we have to scrap four points .
User Interface: Yeah , that's difficult . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Or make it on a hand dynamo , but {vocalsound} I don't think that will work .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ma make it with wood instead of rubber ?
Industrial Designer: No , that's {disfmarker} no .
User Interface: Uh .
Industrial Designer: Make it w uh when you made it uh uh uh a remote control of wood ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} We could make it titanium instead of rubber .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You don't make a remote control of {disfmarker} Ah .
Marketing: Yeah ,
Project Manager: Yeah ,
Marketing: it it i
Project Manager: mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah , it also {disfmarker} uh it also takes one point less .
Project Manager: Yeah , but uh a wooden remote control only helps for uh old people we discussed ,
User Interface: Oh . Oh can I ask something ?
Project Manager: yes ?
User Interface: What is special colour ?
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Is that the wood uh wood uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think it is .
User Interface: this , we have to have that one too ?
Industrial Designer: It isn't .
Project Manager: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: What ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: but it's only a half . But I think the only option is to drop the uh sample speaker .
Marketing: Yeah . Sample speaker .
Industrial Designer: To knock the sample speaker , yeah . And sample sensor .
User Interface: Th then we still have too much
Marketing: Yeah , okay ,
User Interface: if we use the uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But m yeah , course ,
Marketing: three . Point three .
Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , we we scrap that one ?
Industrial Designer: What we'll have . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Huh ?
Industrial Designer: Let's make it thirteen or fourteen . {vocalsound}
User Interface: See , a po
Marketing: Point twelve {gap} .
User Interface: three . {vocalsound} We need point three . {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's a scroll wheel . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh it's a colour . Don't make it wood .
Industrial Designer: A colour .
Marketing: Yeah , but a wood {disfmarker}
User Interface: Make it uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: we can make it brown , dark brown , not wood .
User Interface: Yeah , but it's it's special colour , is it a all kind of colours ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , special colours , fruity colours .
User Interface: It's also green or uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Is it also {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: no that that's just normal colour {disfmarker} fruit colours .
User Interface: Yeah , but it's a special colour than just rubber colour .
Marketing: Normal colours , yellow {disfmarker}
User Interface: You have to add something to the rubber to make it green .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: You don't say here's green rubber .
Industrial Designer: They don't sell green rubber plants . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , but then I d I don't think we can ever make to a twelve and half .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
User Interface: Yeah , you can , you should {disfmarker} you have to lose {disfmarker}
Marketing: But then we have to scrap L_C_D_ display , we have to scrap uh
User Interface: No , it is the scroll wheel , I guess .
Industrial Designer: No no no .
Marketing: s advanced chip . No then we have to scrap everything we got because how many colours we gonna make ?
Industrial Designer: If we lose the scroll wheel and make it totally uh depending uh dependent on uh the touch screen
Marketing: Five ? Then we have two .
User Interface: A push ,
Marketing: S
User Interface: yeah .
Marketing: touch .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} then it's possible to make . And then you can {vocalsound} and then you can add to the colours .
Marketing: Then we can make {disfmarker} add two colours on it . Yeah , two colours {gap} it .
Industrial Designer: Special c
User Interface: Switch colours .
Industrial Designer: Okay , if you lose uh {vocalsound} if you lose the {disfmarker}
User Interface: It was such a great idea . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You lose this one , you got eleven point five
Marketing: They can add two colours .
Industrial Designer: and you make i and then you can make uh the spec single curve , for example .
Marketing: But the colours . Um how ma uh the colours like l she told , is that all the colours we add or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: How d uh uh how many colours ?
User Interface: What do you mean ?
Industrial Designer: Special colours , all the colours you want , because you want to make p
Marketing: Yeah , but we we we are {disfmarker} we have yellow , red , uh black , titanium .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but uh when you use more than one colour , it's a special colour .
User Interface: Oh .
Marketing: Ah okay .
User Interface: But I think when you use the colour that's not originally the rubber then you use special colour ,
Industrial Designer: I suppose .
User Interface: 'cause you have to add it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , but the rubbers alls original black .
User Interface: Yeah , so you always lose the special colour . You co you could make it always black , like normal remote .
Marketing: Yeah b Yeah , but we're gonna make it yellow {disfmarker} uh red , and then you add {disfmarker} you have two special colours on top of the one we have now .
Industrial Designer: Nee we we also want to make ano another colour .
User Interface: Oh right , yeah . Yeah , we should u
Marketing: Yeah , but m
User Interface: Yeah . We have to make this like four or five or something .
Marketing: Yeah ,
User Interface: That's what it means .
Marketing: because we have more colours than only black .
Project Manager: Yeah , but isn't it per remote that you pay ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I {disfmarker} then I think I p I don I don't think they me mean they're special {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Half ?
User Interface: Oh right , yeah . Is it per remote ?
Project Manager: I think you pay half per remote .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah , that's right ,
Project Manager: So each remote with a special colour .
User Interface: and you {disfmarker} one colour per remote .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , indeed , yeah .
User Interface: So then it is one .
Industrial Designer: You don't need four of those {vocalsound} uh four of those special colours in one in one remote .
Marketing: Yeah , okay okay , true . True , true .
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: I hope . {vocalsound}
Marketing: We have two points spare .
Project Manager: So the battery ,
Marketing: Nee one point .
Project Manager: we have um advanced chip on print .
User Interface: One . So it would be curved , single curve .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Because of {disfmarker} thing {disfmarker}
User Interface: Or not ?
Project Manager: Yeah , well you can at least make it curved again .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: So y you just can't make a nice remote . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , single curve .
Project Manager: Because that was very important ,
User Interface: It's too bad for the speaker .
Project Manager: huh ? So it's curved , it's still that {disfmarker} so we we dropped the speech recognition together with the speaker .
User Interface: Should we change that tha that that's a one if not ,
Marketing: Mm yep .
Project Manager: We dropped the scroll wheel .
User Interface: or not ? Could you copy it ?
Project Manager: And the rest is the same ,
User Interface: And make it uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: huh ? Am I right ?
Marketing: Y yea the scroll wheel is dropped .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: The entire uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh . Huh .
Marketing: Yep .
User Interface: Perhaps you can then copy page or so . Ooh . No . Oh you you made the entire {disfmarker} could you {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay . Undo , undo . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh
Industrial Designer: Undo .
User Interface: not {disfmarker} Well {gap} .
Industrial Designer: So , 'kay .
User Interface: Would you ?
Industrial Designer: Twenty minutes ?
User Interface: By the {disfmarker} Perhaps you can save this one , and then copy or something . Add it copy page . Select all .
Project Manager: No , but you c yeah .
User Interface: Alright , something went wrong .
Marketing: Tap .
Project Manager: Okay , but this this new remote we can afford . {vocalsound}
User Interface: It doesn't work . Let's forget .
Marketing: It should've work .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so you had this list at start ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hmm ? No , I hadn't .
Industrial Designer: Alright . When did you receive this list ?
Project Manager: I just received it .
Industrial Designer: Ah okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Oh
Project Manager: They don't work so hard at the finance department . {vocalsound}
User Interface: ignore that . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Well , so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ah okay . I suppose this is a {disfmarker}
User Interface: Too bad .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so we lose the scroll wheel ,
User Interface: Yeah . The microphone .
Industrial Designer: the s
Project Manager: Yeah , and that's it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And the microphone .
User Interface: A and we changed something , I guess , or not ? We {disfmarker} Oh no .
Marketing: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Twelve Euro fifty . Um and did you try to make a new design , or what were you trying to do ?
User Interface: Yeah , I tried to copy that one , but it didn't work .
Project Manager: It didn't work .
User Interface: So we could fix it like tha that it's like this . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hmm . Strange .
User Interface: You could select it all , but then you can't erase . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Strange .
Project Manager: Oh , you can arrange {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You can only re erase ?
User Interface: Erase .
Industrial Designer: Oh .
User Interface: When you saw th li uh {disfmarker} Earlier when we selected it , w I couldn't erase anything .
Industrial Designer: Uh , no .
Project Manager: Hmm , can't you then just say copy ?
Industrial Designer: Bling .
Project Manager: New page . Paste . Yes .
Industrial Designer: Ah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Select none . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Just tap somewhere .
Industrial Designer: {gap} just up somewhere b uh besides it ,
Marketing: {gap} just tap somewhere .
Industrial Designer: right .
Project Manager: Okay ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: and now you can erase .
User Interface: I don't think I can , but uh we can try .
Industrial Designer: Uh , we already try .
Project Manager: Well it should be possible .
User Interface: Oh , yeah ,
Project Manager: Oh no .
User Interface: no , ha-ha .
Project Manager: Well you can draw over it with white uh pen . {vocalsound}
Marketing: No ?
User Interface: Yeah , we tried it earlier .
Project Manager: Oh .
User Interface: It's very much work .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Sorry . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well but that's also useful for the evaluation , because I think uh we have a prototype now
Marketing: Evaluation drops .
Project Manager: which we can afford and uh we only need to draw a little bit to get a good uh design . Doodle . And I think we should then move on to the production evaluation because of the time .
Marketing: And erase the mic .
User Interface: Yeah , goodbye mic .
Industrial Designer: All I need is no mic . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Let's see , we can save this now .
User Interface: Oh , I already erased half of the line .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Bon chance {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And move back to here .
User Interface: Too bad , oh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Like this ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Still looks nice .
Project Manager: And then all green . Okay , well thank you .
User Interface: Oh , that's erase .
Marketing: Looks like a iPod .
Project Manager: Oh , no {gap} .
Industrial Designer: No ,
Project Manager: Hey , but you can erase that .
Industrial Designer: add {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , that's a bit weird .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh-oh .
User Interface: Oh , now I'm {gap} line .
Industrial Designer: S Difference between lines and text and the pen .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Right . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh . All I need is {gap} mic . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And you can't erase this ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hmm , strange .
User Interface: No ,
Project Manager: Okay , well uh
User Interface: it's weird . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: just leave it at this and quickly save .
Marketing: Station page .
Project Manager: Um and then we are going to the project or product evaluation .
Industrial Designer: Huh , looks fucking boring now . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We just did {gap} our project evaluation . Um well , I think I can sit for that since it's almost my final slide . Um what did you think about uh the process ? How satisfied are we ?
Industrial Designer: Deadlines were sometimes very short .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Bu but stressful . You think , no , my presentation isn't ready .
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And stressful .
Marketing: I think we {disfmarker} it should be b it would be better if we worked a little bit together .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Now we worked through each other ,
Project Manager: And you could ask things .
User Interface: Yeah , you had information I didn't have
Marketing: something he said {disfmarker}
User Interface: and then uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: yeah , and you had information I also had ,
User Interface: Oh right . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: so some some things I had in my presentation , they already told ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: And for me it sometimes was a surprise who was going to present what , huh ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: So yeah , that {disfmarker} I don't think that is the best way to work at {disfmarker} for such project .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: So you would say uh communicate during our individual uh work .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , no , or maybe session of five minutes together or something , and then work separate .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but but why not work here together , for example ?
User Interface: Yeah , you could {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Why should we be separated from each other in those difference {disfmarker} uh different rooms ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Well , probably to simulate the whole working uh process ,
User Interface: I think so too . Yeah , but then you can work together too
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: huh , th {gap} you can't have a meeting uh for several weeks .
User Interface: when {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah m yeah , like she told . Then you can work together too by mail or by , I dunno , chat , something ,
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: A chat would also be uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Huh , oh right .
Marketing: but now we're completely separated from each other . I don't think that was the best way , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But the technology was uh fantastic . {gap}
User Interface: Well ,
Marketing: Yeah , the technology's okay .
User Interface: I I don't really like the board , it doesn't really work great . Sometimes I think {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: Work now ?
Marketing: Yeah okay , but I don I do I think becau that's because {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Perhaps it is e
User Interface: It does work , but sometimes it doesn't erase or it doesn't uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , perhaps it is easier to get one of those uh dig digital pens or so and to uh {disfmarker} and lay it next to that keyboard over there .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So you can draw uh {disfmarker} see it over th on the screen .
Marketing: Yeah , like the f like a plotters or something ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: yeah . Yep yep yep yep yep .
Project Manager: So you don't think the SMARTboard is is really useful
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It's useful , but not m
User Interface: it is useful ,
Marketing: Yeah , it is useful , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: but it doesn't really work all the time .
Marketing: No .
User Interface: Th the pen doesn't {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Because when you put this pen on the screen uh uh for exam and line is d being drawn at at two or three centimetres uh below .
User Interface: The line is a bit off .
Project Manager: Yeah , so it's maybe a bit unnatural also .
User Interface: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: Yep .
User Interface: you can point to where you want the line to be . But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The project uh {disfmarker} because of the deadlines you didn't had the time to uh {disfmarker} have , you didn't have time to uh {disfmarker} to make a very uh qualitati qualitative uh presentation .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So you used uh this uh the different PowerPoint presentations uh in which you put your uh material in the {disfmarker} Oh .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That wasn't me . Uh {vocalsound} so um
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Wasn't me .
Project Manager: the means , we discussed the smart board , and what about uh this digital pen ?
User Interface: I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I I used it ,
Marketing: I didn't use it at all . {vocalsound}
User Interface: it it was {disfmarker} you can use it , it's quite handy I think .
Project Manager: Yeah , well
Industrial Designer: But I didn't {disfmarker} I uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I use it as a a normal pen and and and only you use it to uh get it on the computer ,
User Interface: Yeah , I used it to y to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: huh ?
User Interface: Yeah , it did work pretty well .
Industrial Designer: I used it too , but {disfmarker} oh well .
User Interface: I don't think why you would want to use it actually ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: I didn't use .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
User Interface: but it it does work . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: because it shou
Marketing: No {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: To make some designs ,
Marketing: It is it is {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: it is very easy .
Marketing: yeah , it is easy for {disfmarker} to design something and then load it in your computer .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , and then you can show it to everybody .
Industrial Designer: But to write it th yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: It doesn't really write normally .
Marketing: Yeah . It's b bi little bit too big to write .
User Interface: It's a bit {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's too big , it's too fat .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Fat document , those .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , um and what about the teamwork ?
User Interface: I think it was great ,
Marketing: Team work was okay .
Project Manager: Yeah , well I think so too .
User Interface: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {gap} we {disfmarker}
Marketing: Only thing that we worked through , past each other .
Project Manager: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: but that was {disfmarker} it was our assignment ,
Marketing: With some things that was only problem ,
User Interface: Yeah , but it was because we didn't uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: huh ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah ,
Project Manager: Okay ,
Marketing: but furthermore better .
Project Manager: and maybe I should walk out of the room when you discuss uh this point , the leadership . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I thought it was good , but uh {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: yeah , no prob . Ah .
Project Manager: Yeah well , okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Not too much , not too too too too {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: And creativity ? Well , when we look at this I'd say we have been creative ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: huh ? But {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , or the room for {disfmarker}
Project Manager: There was room for {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: it was the idea to be creative , so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: You got some standard ideas in your head {vocalsound} and this what came out .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And you get get stuff from the from the computer ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The information uh was sometimes uh a little bit too late
Marketing: Little bit uh lo yeah . Too late {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: or {disfmarker}
Marketing: it it it took a lot of time before you got your ema
User Interface: You just sit there for ten minutes . Yeah , {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: yeah .
User Interface: where is that email ?
Marketing: I played I think seven times Solitaire something .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You did ? Well ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I didn't have time for that .
User Interface: did you ? Is it on there ? {vocalsound} Is it on there ?
Marketing: Wha
User Interface: I didn't find the {disfmarker} didn't look but uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap}
Project Manager: At some times I {disfmarker} Sometimes I received like like five emails at at one moment ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Was searching and searching .
Marketing: Oh right ,
User Interface: I didn't look ,
Marketing: it is there .
User Interface: but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and then {disfmarker}
Marketing: No , I I never got that .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I always {disfmarker}
User Interface: I got like one email after ten minutes or something .
Project Manager: I even got spam . {vocalsound} Or something like that . {vocalsound}
Marketing: N yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: That's what we said . {vocalsound}
Marketing: So does this {disfmarker} I think lik oh and information was a bit low I think , sometimes ,
User Interface: And it {disfmarker} not a lot uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: in in in in the beginning I didn't understand what what to do .
User Interface: No , the first one .
Industrial Designer: No , w I didn't know {disfmarker}
User Interface: I didn't know uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , like I {disfmarker} with with the remote {gap} and I never new we have t we had to uh {disfmarker} yeah made a made a rec a remote control .
Industrial Designer: Make a r
User Interface: nee .
Industrial Designer: yeah .
User Interface: And I didn't know what to do for the first ten minutes before we got here ,
Marketing: Yeah , so {disfmarker}
User Interface: so I went , right . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . No stepping on the table and then looking at the internet page .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And I was working and working and work {vocalsound}
User Interface: Just looking at the screen and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} No .
Project Manager: Okay , well um
Marketing: So , yeah .
Project Manager: {disfmarker} but after all we can say uh we are satisfied , but it it could've been uh better .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: When we get uh {disfmarker} when we have {disfmarker} we would have gotten uh more information .
User Interface: Yeah , an
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Faster .
Industrial Designer: more information about the costs .
User Interface: Yeah , that will be handy .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: First of all I didn't think uh that we were able to make an L_C_D_ screen uh {disfmarker} first point ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but uh it was possible uh {disfmarker} uh , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , it only costs four units . Uh {vocalsound} yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yea uh so tha actually you could make an L_C_D_ screen but no mic , or it could make mic but no L_C_D_ screen , when you look at that .
Project Manager: Yeah , that was a bit mean to put it in the end .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And uh what were the other points to to improve this whole process ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh , I dunno .
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: Think that's about it .
Marketing: Nothing .
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: I think we got it already .
User Interface: Heavier um {disfmarker} less heavy laptops .
Project Manager: Yeah , they're pretty heavy .
Industrial Designer: Uh . Faster laptop .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh . They were they were just fine .
User Interface: But that's not really uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: And furthermore the the the network was okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Marketing: Everything you loaded was also
User Interface: Yeah , everything worked .
Marketing: av available there .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: And so more time uh w might have improved the the quality of work ,
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: is what you say .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah , but that {disfmarker} It's now half past four {disfmarker} half past three , so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , but it's just the the off hours between that you will work alone .
Marketing: Yeah , okay . Yeah , okay .
User Interface: Then it pops up {disfmarker} pop up screen came . Five minutes in the meeting .
Marketing: Mm-hm . Mm .
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Marketing: Yeah .
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Marketing: Yeah .
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User Interface: {gap}
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Project Manager: I hereby officially close the meeting and uh I hope to see you uh soon . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
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User Interface: {gap}
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User Interface: Images .
Industrial Designer: Whoo-hoo . Let's let's have party . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Celebra {vocalsound}
User Interface: How big do you want the images ?
Marketing: Or shouldn't I ?
Industrial Designer: Let's have some fun . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: How big ? Uh
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Industrial Designer: No
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Marketing: Yeah .
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Marketing: {gap}
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Marketing: Hey .
Industrial Designer: Mm ?
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User Interface: You can only save it in my documents .
Marketing: {gap}
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Marketing: {vocalsound} Ten .
User Interface: Can we stay here ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
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User Interface: Yeah .
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User Interface: Yeah , alright .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Why can't we stay here ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Celebration time , come on . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Oh . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Peace out nigger . Entree
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} | |
doc_178 | Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Janet Finch-Saunders, and also from Dawn Bowden, and I'd like to welcome Huw Irranca-Davies, who is substituting for Dawn Bowden. Can I ask Members if there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. We'll move on, then, to our evidence session for our inquiry on school improvement and raising standards. I'd like to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, and Steve Davies, director of education. Thank you both for attending and for your detailed paper in advance of the meeting. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. If I can just start by asking you: to what extent is the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development still involved in the Welsh Government's school improvement journey?
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, can I thank the committee for their invitation this morning, and their interest in this particular area? As you will be aware, on coming into office, the director and I agreed to ask the OECD to do a rapid review of the state of Welsh education at the beginning of this Assembly term. They did that, and the feedback from that work informed the publication and content of the national mission. I was very clear in the national mission that I would invite the OECD back to review our progress against that mission, and that has happened in the tail end of last year, and the OECD will publish their latest report on Welsh education next month now, in March. So, the expectation is that the report will be published on 23 March, and my intention is to make a statement to the Chamber on 24 March. The nature of that review is part of our ongoing development of self-evaluation. So, we talk a lot about self-evaluation in the school system. Actually, the continuing relationship with OECD is about self-evaluation of the entirety of the system and Welsh Government. We don't want to accept our own orthodoxy and just be in a bubble where we are constantly listening to ourselves and those people who might want to agree with us or tell us what we want to hear. So, the OECD is our best attempt of having some external verification of where we are. That's a risk for Ministers and for Government, because we want them to give an honest evaluation of where we are, but that's a really important tool for me, to ensure that we're constantly testing ourselves. The nature of that review is that the OECD were able to talk to whoever they felt it was important to talk to, so that included practitioners on the ground, elements of the middle tier, as well as Welsh Government. And I know, Chair—I hope you'll be pleased to hear this—that the reports of this committee have formed parts of their review, looking at how the Senedd itself has contributed to and has held the Government to account. So, as I said, we expect our report to be published towards the end of March.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Minister. Can I ask about the powers under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, to ask you to tell us about the use of those powers either by Welsh Government or by local authorities, and how effective you feel that legislation has been?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. Well, as you'll be aware, local authorities have quite extensive powers of intervention in schools if they feel that is necessary. If I'm honest, I think there's a mixed picture, with some local authorities using those powers not on a regular basis, but obviously demonstrating a willingness to use those powers. There are other local authorities who don't seem to have used them. Since that legislation came into being, there have been a number of reasons, because of course a local authority has to give a reason for using those powers of intervention. They usually focus on standards, but sometimes they focus on a breakdown in governance arrangements, perhaps, or a failure or a breakdown in financial management. So, sometimes the budgetary issues trigger an intervention power. And the types of interventions that have been used have included, in some cases, appointing additional governors to governing bodies, or suspending a school's delegated budget so the local authority takes on, then, financial control of that particular school, or sometimes applying to the Welsh Government to entirely replace a governing body and establish an intervention board. So, if I can give you an example of where that's been used and has been successful, in Flintshire. They applied to Welsh Government for two interim executive boards, in Sir Richard Gwyn Catholic High School and in Ysgol Trefonnen. They applied to us. Those governing bodies were dissolved. The IEBs were put in place and both of those schools, which had been in special measures, moved quite rapidly, actually, out of special measures. Perhaps the most recent example of this is one that the Chair will know very well in her own constituency of Torfaen, in Cwmbran High School, where Torfaen has intervened in that case. The Welsh Government has not used those powers to date. My expectation always is that local authorities should be the first port of call, and I would encourage—and we always encourage—local authorities to take a proactive approach to intervention and to use those powers. But it's my belief that it is they who are best placed initially to do that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Minister. Can I ask, then, about the national evaluation and improvement resource and how significant a role that will play in the raising of school standards, and how you feel it's evolved since it was first conceived?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, this brings us back to the principle of self-evaluation and something, if we're honest, we've not been very good at. If you look at a number of chief inspectors' reports into the Welsh education system, self-evaluation has always been identified as something that is missing or underdeveloped in our system to date, hence, then, the work to establish not a new approach, but a more robust approach to self-evaluation. We've done that in conjunction, again, with the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. It's really important, throughout the entirety of our reform journey that that's done in co-construction, because we want this resource to be usable in schools. So, it's all very well having a conceptual idea and people outside the classroom working on it, but if it's of no practical use to a school leadership team, then we won't see the impact. So, it's—. We're in phase 2 at the moment, where we're doing—. So, the initial resource has been developed by the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. We're in the testing phase at the moment and having it evaluated itself, with a view to introducing that resource across the system at the start of the new academic year, in September 2020. I truly believe that, if we're to make progress in Welsh education, we have to develop the skills within our system to have robust self-evaluation. This resource gives us continuity of approach right the way across Wales. So, it's not left to an individual school to come up with a system; it's right the way across the system. My hope would be that those principles could then be applied to local education authorities, to regional school improvement services and Welsh Government as part of a whole-system approach to self-evaluation. I don't know if there's anything more you want to add, Steve.
Steve Davies: Just to add that the other critical partners are Estyn themselves.
Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, yes, sorry.
Steve Davies: So, they have played a critical role and, as we know, as the Minister has said in the past, she may introduce policy and practice, but if Estyn are part of it then schools, usually, because they recognise that it will be part of the inspection process—it gives it greater push and support around it. So, they've been key players within it.
Kirsty Williams AM: And I think, if I just say as well, that the external perception of what that's about is really important. It's not a test of school readiness for reform, it is a genuine attempt for a school to evaluate their strengths, their weaknesses and where they need to go next. It's not an Estyn checklist. And because of the word 'toolkit'—the feedback was that it gave the impression of a checklist, 'Just do this and check list'. So, we're actually going to change the name of that resource. So, it'll be called the national evaluation and improvement resource, rather than the toolkit, because, as I said, the feedback was that 'toolkit' gave the impression of a checklist exercise, and it's got to be about more than that if it's going to be meaningful. So, it'll be changed to an 'improvement resource'.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Before I bring Suzy in, can I just welcome Siân Gwenllian, who is joining us via video-conference in north Wales? Morning, Siân.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning. Can you hear me?
Lynne Neagle AM: We can, yes. We can hear you very nicely, thank you.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you've got a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes. Only a very quick one. It's about the development of the—
Kirsty Williams AM: The resource.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, the resource, thank you—about whether there were any conflicting ideas in the process of development that made it quite difficult to zone in on something that school leadership teams, in particular, could rely on. Were there differences of opinion on what this should look like?
Kirsty Williams AM: Not that I'm aware of from the practitioners that I've spoken to who have been part of that. So, for instance, Suzy, you will know the very small school of Gladestry. The head of Gladestry has been involved in this process, and she said that she'd really enjoyed the process of working alongside Estyn and the OECD as a school leader to be able to shape it. But I'm not aware that there's been conflict in that process.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not suggesting that there has been; I'm just interested as to how it had worked, that's all.
Steve Davies: Chair, I think, inevitably, when you bring stakeholders together, they're not going to be in total agreement as to how it's going to work, and I think initially one of the challenges was having Estyn there as part of the facilitation group. There are always some concerns that, actually, it's coming from a to inspect, oral, judgmental tick box. So, we had some early day challenges where we had to convince—and, ultimately, Estyn convinced them—that they were there to help and support as opposed to to inspect, and that the model that was developed, as the Minister said, was not going to be a tick box, 'You are good at this part of self-evaluation', it was to build the skillsets up.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. So, it's got their full confidence.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and I think again, also, what—. You know, four years into the job, what I've reflected on as well is there is this sometimes a feeling out there that the Minister says all the right stuff, but you're not actually going to do it, so, when you talk about a new approach to doing things, you're not actually serious about it. So, trying to build that confidence that we are serious about developing a new system around self-improvement, which is different from accountability—sometimes, the practitioners are like, 'Oh, yes, we've heard it all before but it never actually happens.' And I think that's been a part of the constant—not pressure, but the responsibility on Welsh Government is in following through. So, we said that we were going to do this in the national mission, and we are going to do it. I'm really proud that there or thereabouts, a few months either way, we've actually kept to the timetable as outlined in the national mission, and that helps build confidence within the sector that we are committed to that programme and we're going to do what we say we're going to do.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: And a final question from me: how effective do you think the investment in school standards has been in this Assembly term, as opposed to the approach taken in the last Assembly term, where there was the protection put in place for core school budgets?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think, first of all, it's important that, whilst this additional resource is specifically targeted at school standards, that is only a part of a much wider education budget, a budget that—you know—is incredibly complex. And so it is really challenging to be able to draw straight lines—you know, 'We did this and it's resulted in that'—given that we're looking at the entirety of school funding here. What's been really important is that, if you drill down into what that money has been spent on, 50 per cent of it has been directed towards professional learning in one form or another to support our teaching professionals. And that's been really important to me. I've said it time and time again: an education system cannot exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out to work with them and teach them. Therefore, that investment in staff and investment in the professional learning of our staff and support for them I think is making a difference already but, importantly, will continue to make a difference. But I think it is really challenging to be able to say, 'Well, we spent this bit of money and it definitely led to that', because it's such a complex picture. But that money, the way it's been spent, has been driven by evidence. And, again, what we do know from international best practice, what do we know that works in driving up standards, and then how can we align the money that we've got to supporting that? And, as I said, 50 per cent of that money has gone directly to simply supporting the professional learning of those who work with our children.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We're going to talk now a bit about schools causing concern with questions from Huw Irranca-Davies.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. If I can, just first of all, zoom in on the way in which we actually decide which schools need what support. So, one of the interesting questions for us is how do we use the different systems out there. So, we've got the school categorisation system, which we're familiar with. We've also got Estyn inspection reports, then we've got other intelligence, including local intelligence on the ground. How do you decide from that? How is it decided what schools need support, need challenge? How do we do that?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, you're right: what we have is a variety of ways in which we can identify schools that need support, or need to be challenged on their practice. But it's important not to confuse them either. So, our primary route to doing this is our school categorisation system. Sometimes, and perhaps this is inevitable—. That system is primarily there as a triage system around identifying where our resource should be spent. So, our school improvement service—it's a risk-based approach, so they can evaluate where they need to put their time, effort and resource. Sometimes, it's used by other people for other things, but that is not its primary purpose; its primary purpose there is not one of accountability, it is one of identifying risk and aligning that then to the support that is available. Estyn—now that is part of that accountability system. That is our method of holding schools and their governing bodies to account for their practice and for the work that they do. Both systems, of course, are evolving. So, how we do categorisation has changed over a period of time. The elements that go into making that judgment around the levels of support have changed, and, of course, the Estyn inspection regime is also changing. At the moment, schools are only inspected once every seven years. We're moving to a system where Estyn will be more regularly in schools. So, they are two systems, but they are different and they look at different things. But our categorisation system is how we look for those ways of identifying support for schools.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: And you've made, with feedback over the last few years, adjustments to the way that the categorisation system works. Are you content with where it is now, or do you see more adjustments being made? Have you got things in front of you that you're getting feedback on saying 'Well, we need to tweak this again a little bit'?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, that system has evolved over time. So, when it started, it was just a tool around secondary schools. Now, it covers the breadth of schools. Initially, on coming into office, when I first came in, it was purely driven by data, and it was also done in quartiles. So, there was a certain number of schools that had to be in the bottom, which drove practitioners mad. They were like 'Ah, every year, there's going to be some of us that have to be in the bottom quartile', because of the way in which it was arranged, which seemed very unfair to them. So, we've changed that. It's not just purely driven on data now; there are other judgments—the professional judgments of our challenge advisers are taken into account. And I would expect that situation to continue to evolve to align itself to our curriculum reform, and our changes in self-evaluation. So, it's not a fixed point. I expect that that system will continue to evolve and change, so that it complements and assists in the reform journey as other parts of the system change.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Thanks for that. I think, for any impartial reader of the way that the trends have been going on this, there is some good news within that, in that, certainly, those schools that might have been identified as have been okay but coasting along, seem to be moving up the categories, although we still do have that—. Well, it's what the system is there to do, it's to identify those schools that do need that additional support. And I like your analogy of a triage system—'You're fit; keep on doing what you're doing and do it well; you need more support, we'll put the support in.' But, can I turn to those schools that are causing significant concern, and how we identify them? The Estyn chief inspector's conclusions at the end of the 2017-18 report that these schools are not being identified early enough—there's a need to do something urgently about these concerns, particularly in secondary schools. Have we addressed that? Are you content that we've addressed that concern? Was he right?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, the chief inspector is absolutely right—absolutely right. I've got no beef with that statement at all. In some ways, when a school goes into special measures, in a way, that's a failure of the system, because that should have been identified sooner. So I've got no beef, as I said, with the chief inspector saying that.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: So just to ask, bearing in mind the earlier discussion we were having, how is it that we don't identify those schools?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's it—you're quite right. Undoubtedly, what categorisation has done is led to a greater understanding, I think, on behalf of local education authorities' and school improvement services' knowledge about their schools. I think knowledge around schools is greatly enhanced by that process. But we are not there yet in terms of necessarily, then, moving those schools more quickly, once they've been identified as needing the highest level of support to see improvement. And secondary schools is a particular, particular challenge. So you will have seen from the last publication of categorisation data that our primary sector continues to improve—more and more and more of our primary schools are in a green rating, which is very satisfying to me. But we have got more of an issue with secondary schools, and we have a particular issue with the same schools being identified in that level of categorisation. So even though we've identified them as needing that extra help, they are not moving at pace away from that system. So there are two things that we are doing at the moment. The first is, we are, again, looking at different sets of data that can give us even earlier warning systems that things are going wrong in a school—and perhaps Steve will explain later. For instance, staff sickness, and carefully monitoring staff sickness, because there is a direct correlation between high levels of staff sickness in a school and what is going on in the school. And Steve can explain some of this work later. But we're piloting a new approach to those schools that are causing concern. Each local authority has been asked to identify two of their high schools that they are particularly worried about. And we have a new multi-agency approach, working with those schools to try and move them more forward. So it's two from each region, a multi-agency panel, working with the school. And that multi-agency panel includes the school itself, the local authority, the regional consortia school improvement staff, Estyn and Welsh Government—as a multi-agency panel to support improvement in that school. So, for instance, what would normally happen, Estyn would come in, Estyn would make a judgment on the school—requiring special measures or urgent improvement—and Estyn would go away. They'd go away for six months, and then they'd come back in six months, and they'd make another judgment, 'No, still not good enough', and disappear for six months. We're saying—Estyn and the Welsh Government have agreed that's not the best approach; Estyn need to be part of the solution, rather than just coming and making a judgment. The initial feedback from this trial is very, very positive. Actually, we've had local authorities coming to us and saying, 'Can we put more schools in? Rather than just having two of our high schools, can we engage more in this project and this pilot?' It's being evaluated by Cardiff Metropolitan University and Swansea University, so we're having some academic overview to see, actually, does this approach work, can we evidence it—that it actually makes a difference? And it's actually—I'd like to claim all the credit for it, but it's actually not dissimilar to something that's happening in Scotland as well. But we knew that carrying on doing the same old thing clearly wasn't moving these schools, we needed a new approach, and this is what we're doing at the moment. So it's relatively new, but the initial feedback is positive. Steve, I don't know—
Steve Davies: I think your important point is about, 'What about the schools that are sliding in that direction?' And it's bringing together what we know from Estyn, but also, critically, local authorities have knowledge of their schools, and so do consortia. We've got to be better at bringing those together. So, the Minister gave the example of staff sickness—not always a trigger, but it's one of those. If you look at movement of pupils out of a school, you can look at complaints, you can look at, actually, emerging increased use of HR resources that a school pulls on a local authority. None of these have been pushed up into the public domain, but they're important antennae. The point the Minister made about Estyn as well is, historically, when they go into special measures, Estyn, at the end of that week, call in, historically, either the region or the local authority, they will feed back to one of them, and then they go away. So, they are staying with it. So, we are brining together the knowledge. But, as the Minister said, we want to keep a very clear distinction between the accountability and the transparency to the public, to parents, with the very detailed collective work of that multi-agency group to actually make that difference over time.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Okay. So, does that—. I'd love to go further, but time is against us. Does that deal with the issue of the schools that have been identified in those categories of requiring significant improvement and requiring special measures? Are those the ones that will be identified now, or is that above and beyond that again?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, those are the ones that are primarily at the forefront of our minds, but this way of sharing data better, to step in earlier, is part of our attempt to address what the chief inspector says about stepping in early—not waiting until a school gets into special measures and a formal judgment from Estyn of that, but actually using that intelligence to get support in there earlier. The three elements that that multi-agency approach look at are: what are the fundamentals that need addressing in this school? What is the capacity of the school itself to be able to address those fundamentals? And, what extra support needs to go into that senior management team and the governing body to get those fundamentals addressed? And actually, what does sustainable improvement look like? Because, again, one of the issues, sometimes, that happens is, a school goes into a category with Estyn, there's a big push and a big, 'We must do something' and the school comes out, but actually, that improvement is not sustainable. It's the low-hanging fruit; it's the easy wins that have been achieved, but actually, perhaps some of the fundamental challenges underlying in that school haven't been addressed in that process. So, this is about what will sustainable improvement look like in six months, what's it going to look like in 12 months and what's it going to look like in 18 months. So, actually, a more strategic, longer term approach to real change in a school rather than, perhaps, some of the easy-to-fix items that make a school as if it's doing better, but we really haven't tackled some of the underlying problems that make that school vulnerable to slipping back. Does that make sense?
Lynne Neagle AM: I've got a couple of supplementaries on—. Sorry?
Kirsty Williams AM: Does that make sense?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. We've got a couple of supplementaries on this, first from Suzy and then from Siân.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that, Chair. Obviously, I'm pleased to hear that this work is being done, but I'm wondering—. What strikes me, in the recent past, at least, particularly as we've got the usual suspects in this category—. I've got to ask myself why it is that councils have been reluctant, perhaps, to step in with these schools earlier, particularly as they've got consortia or middle-tier support as well. Has there been a deficit in that space that has meant that councils don't feel equipped to step in? I just don't really get it why they've been reluctant to step in so far. If they've been nervous about doing it, because they don't feel that they've got the tools to do it, then I think that's pretty important, because as you were saying, we were talking about fundamentals; surely, councils have been able to deal with fundamentals, and more importantly, consortia up until now. Because, obviously, we're asking these players to give us evidence at some point, so perhaps I'd like to challenge them on how come we're here now.
Kirsty Williams AM: And rightly so.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not laying this at your door.
Kirsty Williams AM: And rightly so. I guess each local authority will have an explanation for each individual school, I suspect. What's crucial to me is that we have to—. I see our job as corralling the collective effort, and I think, for too long in the system, there has been a lack of co-ordination. So, this is about bringing and corralling a collective effort to address this, going forward, in more sustainable way. And I think it does come back to this issue around self-evaluation and a willingness to be open, honest and upfront about some of the challenges that we've got. It's not easy, is it? It's not easy to accept or to acknowledge sometimes when things are—
Suzy Davies AM: That they don't know how to do this.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that they're going badly, or perhaps they don't know exactly how to make the difference. So this approach, as I said, is a new way of trying to coral that collective effort across the board. But, I don't know if Steve—because you've done other roles in the system, so perhaps you've got a different insight.
Steve Davies: I think you're right. The variation across the country, across local authorities—. There are some local authorities that we've worked with and we identify have taken the appropriate action. There are others that we're working with, and yes, at its best, it's done as a joint exercise where they use their regional school improvement service to help in the identification that there is a need for this. They take advice as to what the action is, whether it is, as the Minister said, in the more significant areas, a board, or whether a warning notice comes in terms of standards or finance. So, we're working with them and we're working with the Welsh Local Government Association to share that practice. An example of that work is: we have done a development training session for cabinet members for education, and scrutiny leads for education across Wales, and all 22 local authorities came to that and engaged with that. That was partly about self-improvement, but it was also about where significant issues arise, you have to constructively confront them. And that comes with what the region knows, and increasingly, we're looking to have it consistently across 22 local authorities, so they are collecting all the additional data that we referred to earlier, so they can legitimately hold a mirror up and say, 'This is a real concern that we have. We're not punishing you, but we're registering the seriousness, and we want you to address it.' And we're making progress. I believe it's genuinely more consistent now, but I'd be lying if I said that there was consistency across all 22 local authorities.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I'm conscious of time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a supplementary from Siân, then back to Huw.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Because you are moving to a more sophisticated approach in terms of identifying problems sooner, and so can offer the support earlier, is it time to think about moving away from the system of categorisation entirely? That is, has the categorisation system reached the end of its usefulness, and is the multi-agency approach, this more sophisticated approach, a better way, ultimately, of being able to assist schools in moving forward?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think, Siân, as I said earlier, the categorisation system has evolved over time, and my expectation is that it will continue to evolve, because it has to be consistent with our overall approach to school improvement and raising standards. I expect OECD will have feedback for us on this important part of our system, and we'll wait to see exactly what they say about it, but as I said in answer to Huw Irranca-Davies earlier, I haven't got a closed mind; we've demonstrated over the last four years our willingness to change the system to make it a smarter system, and we will continue to keep that under review, as we move forward. If I could just go back briefly, it doesn't sound like a very exciting thing, does it, when we say we've been doing work with the WLGA, with cabinet members, but also scrutiny, because that's a really important part of the jigsaw as well, is actually local government scrutiny of the performance of your education portfolio holder and the leadership of your council. So this is about trying to up the ante on all sides, so that those issues around 'What are you doing in your local authority to use the powers that you have?' You know, sometimes, making sure that everybody in that authority—those in power and those who are there to hold those in power to account—have the necessary skills, knowledge and understanding to do that appropriately.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Huw, briefly.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, briefly. I only have one final question. We've talked a lot about early identification; getting in there and then managing the improvement, this triage approach there, and then getting some grip of it, as well, in doing all of that. But my question now is on what we currently have. I won't touch on the primary schools, but let's just look at secondary schools—11 per cent of secondary schools inspected in the last two academic years judged as unsatisfactory, needing urgent improvement. There will always be secondary schools and primary schools that hit moments of crisis for one reason or another, but 11 per cent to me, and to any layperson, would seem unreasonably high. Are you—? It would be daft to ask you if you're content. What is a level that you would be content with of having schools in red category in Wales?
Kirsty Williams AM: You're right. Schools will need different levels of support at different points, and sometimes, it's not because of a crisis. So, for instance, in my region, we do have an increase in the number of schools in the amber category. That's because we've seen in that particular region a number of headteachers retire because they've reached retirement age, and there are new headteachers. Well, that is a moment of risk in the school—when senior leadership changes. Nothing else has changed in that school, but the simple fact that you have a new leader, sometimes in those cases it might be their first headship. That means that that school is going to need a little bit of extra support, so it isn't always just a crisis that needs extra support, there are just general things that happen in the life of a school that could lead to it. But you're absolutely right—we have a particular challenge in the secondary sector where we have not been able to move individual schools forward at pace. And 11 per cent is not acceptable to me, Huw, which is why we have introduced this new pilot to address those schools where, persistently, we have concerns about their ability to move forward. If we'd have carried on doing the same thing, I suspect we would have just carried on getting the same result—hence the need for a new approach to those schools that are causing concern.
Steve Davies: Very briefly, the things we talked about earlier was how we measure the performance of schools, particularly at GCSEs, with a narrow focus. As was said earlier, some of these are the same groups—they trip in and then they don't come out. Our belief is, from research, that they concentrate on squeezing the pips to get the grades up in some small areas for a period of time, and you can do that by targeting and immersing them. Estyn can tick the box to say your grades have got better, but we haven't handled the serious underpinning issues—leadership, teaching and learning, and bringing those together. As the Minister said, what does sustainable improvement look like in six, 12, 18 months? It isn't just, as important as they are, getting those exam grades up a bit. They're the fundamental—. And if they're all agreed as the indicators at the outset, we're more likely—. So it's multi-agency; it's not a little activity, it's a major strategy.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Hefin David has some questions now on the middle tier.
Hefin David AM: I'd like to consider the work of the consortia. In 2016, your election manifesto very clearly said that you wanted to abolish regional consortia—three words in it. Why haven't you done it?
Kirsty Williams AM: Because, given that you're such a keen student of my manifesto, you'll also know that—
Hefin David AM: It was only three words.
Kirsty Williams AM: The Liberal Democrat manifesto also said that we supported major local government reform and a major reduction in the number of local government units. That hasn't happened. I have to say genuinely, my experience over the last four years has proven to me the value of regional working, and in the absence of significant local government reform, I think it's absolutely vital that we have scale in school improvement services—scale that I don't think can be delivered across 22 individual local authorities.
Hefin David AM: Okay. So, if there was local government reform, you would abolish the consortia.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think if there was significant local government reform and we could demonstrate that those units had such a scale that they could perform the functions of regional consortia, then I think it would be inevitable that any education Minister would look to see whether there was an opportunity to change structures. But in the absence of that, Hefin, I have been absolutely convinced whilst doing this job that you need larger units to be able to carry out successful school improvement work, and I think it would be reckless to advocate the system going back to school improvement being organised in 22 different ways.
Hefin David AM: Okay. Do you think that the work of the four consortia has been consistent and effective?
Kirsty Williams AM: The school improvement services?
Hefin David AM: The four consortia.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think, as with individual local education authorities, there are some regional consortia services that have performed really highly—and that's not me saying that, that's Estyn, but gives us assurance around that—and there are others that need to improve. I think the consortia themselves would admit that they, since their establishment, have found new ways of working. Initially, they were very separate entities that did things their own way. Increasingly, over recent years, we have seen those consortia working together on a national approach, but delivered on a regional basis. So I think they themselves have evolved over time. But we are constantly looking for optimum delivery from those particular organisations, but as I said, I think it would be absolutely reckless to go back to a situation where school improvement services were being delivered individually on 22 different bases.
Hefin David AM: Okay. I'm happy to accept that you've changed your opinion there; that's no problem at all. But with regard to the four consortia, and we'll take Education through Regional Working as an example, it does things differently to the other three. Is that a cause for concern, or do you think that's entirely appropriate?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, ERW does things differently, but then so does the Education Achievement Service. EAS is constituted in a different way to the Central South Consortium. What I'm interested in is not necessarily how they are constituted and organised, I'm interested in the effectiveness of that organisation to deliver for children and for teachers. ERW has got particular challenges, and we continue to work with those in ERW to address those, but increasingly, as I said, what we are seeing the regional consortia do is develop a national approach to school improvement services but deliver that on a regional basis so that there is greater consistency in terms of delivery.
Hefin David AM: Are you happy that, within the ERW area, local authorities employ their own improvement advisers, rather than doing it in the way that the others do?
Kirsty Williams AM: We have discussed this at length with them. My preference would be for school improvement officers to be employed in the centre, and we continue to have those discussions, but what's really important to understand is that the regional consortia are not a beast of the Government; they are a beast of the local authorities that have worked together to create a school improvement service that meets their needs. So we can't impose that solution, and we continue to discuss with ERW what is the optimal way, and they continue to discuss with their constituent local authorities about how that should be organised.
Hefin David AM: Are you concerned that Neath Port Talbot have given notice that they want to withdraw from regional working?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think it's really disappointing that Neath Port Talbot have published that notice. What's important for me is to understand—not for me, it will be important for Estyn. It will be really important for us to understand how Neath Port Talbot intend to support their schools and their teachers if they were to withdraw from ERW, especially at what is a very, very critical time. The regional consortia have a key role to play in supporting systems with the introduction of the curriculum. I would want to know from Neath Port Talbot how they are going to do that without being part of that organisation. And, of course, there's the added complexity that so much of our money is channelled through to schools via the regional consortia. So, I would want to understand from Neath Port Talbot how they're going to safeguard their schools and make sure that the children who are receiving their education in Neath Port Talbot are not disadvantaged if they were to follow through on that decision.
Hefin David AM: Do you feel that it's your role to intervene in that area and instruct Neath Port Talbot and ERW as to how they should resolve this issue?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, I would be seeking assurances—
Hefin David AM: What does that mean, though, 'seeking assurances'?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, Neath Port Talbot would need to demonstrate to me how they're going to address these issues. If they're not part of ERW and their schools and their children are not going to be in receipt of the support from ERW, as I said, especially at this critical time, how are they intending to do that? I haven't seen those plans, but if they were to push forward and follow through on the notice, I would want to see them and I suspect Estyn would want to see them also.
Hefin David AM: Okay, just last issue on that: you're just waiting to see what Neath Port Talbot do next, then.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, we have written to Neath Port Talbot to ask them to demonstrate to us, if they were to pull out of ERW, how they're going to meet their functions. I have not heard back from them.
Hefin David AM: Steve, did you want to say something?
Steve Davies: Obviously—[Inaudible.]—that point. We wrote to them last Friday, and we are awaiting their response now.
Hefin David AM: Okay. So, that's where we are. Okay. There was the document in 2015—'National model for regional working'. Is that the current document? Are there plans to change or update it, or is that exactly where we stand?
Kirsty Williams AM: So, that is the current model. Some work was undertaken in 2017 and 2018 to look to update that model and revise that model. Some specific recommendations were put forward about additional services that could be organised on a regional basis; primarily, that is a specialist human resources resource. We know that, because of austerity in some local authorities, HR departments have been really stretched. Education HR is a specialist service, it's not generic. It's often a service that—. I see that as part of a school improvement service. Support for governors also has been stretched within individual local authorities. So, a proposal was put forward to include specialist HR and governor support as part of the regional model. That was rejected by local government. Our local authorities did not want to include that in the regional model. However, I must say, having presented that evidence, some of our local authorities, even though there wasn't a national agreement to put that into the national model, have pooled their resources, and those services are being delivered and supported on a regional basis. So, for instance, the Education Achievement Service now provide specialist HR resource, and EAS and Central South provide governor support. So, although we weren't successful in persuading local government to adopt a new national model, local authorities in those areas saw the value of moving that way.
Hefin David AM: So, with that in mind, and perhaps I'll put this to Steve Davies, everything the Minister just said, and also the line in the document— 'The implementation of this model will change over time'— is it time to go back to that document and review it from a procedural point of view?
Steve Davies: I don't think it's necessarily timely to go back and have a complete review of it. But, certainly, we are in ongoing discussions with the Welsh Local Government Association, both in terms of work with local authorities, and the type of intervention in schools. So, we keep a constant watch as to which areas that we believe we could develop further. We are not currently intending to do a wholesale review of that. As the Minister touched on earlier, there is some work to get consistency across the current area, particularly, as we just mentioned, in relation to ERW work. So, it's getting a consistent approach at that level, and sharing the practice. I think what is emerging, as the Minister said, is that there are two regions who have already made this shift to pool services. I think the two other regions are seeing and will see the benefits of that, and instead of forcing it through, we'd expect that to evolve. But we're not, at this stage, looking to a wholesale review of the national model.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin.
Hefin David AM: And Professor Dylan Jones's strategic delivery group seems to have had quite a warm welcome in the sector. Is it fair to say that?
Kirsty Williams AM: I believe so. I'm very grateful to Dylan for his hard work and his skill in chairing that group, and I think it's been welcomed by all, so that we can get that clarity and consistency about the roles and responsibilities of the individual partners and players in the middle tier.
Hefin David AM: And when will the work be completed, and what will the outcomes be?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the group is currently engaging with Steve and other officials on agreeing a plan, but also, crucially, that plan is there to support the successful implementation of the curriculum, so that we're very clear about the roles and responsibilities in the middle tier in this crucial phase following the publication. We have to move now from the publication into a relentless focus on implementation. The history of devolution is full of fantastic documents, and, shall I say, patchy implementation. The work that has gone into that curriculum is too important for implementation to be left to chance. It's too important. It's too good to be left to chance. So, everything now is a relentless focus on successful implementation.
Hefin David AM: Yes, but I'm thinking that the strategic delivery is reviewing the role of the middle tier. So, you know, what do we expect to see from it, notwithstanding the kind of softly, softly approach that you've already talked about?
Steve Davies: It was set up, actually, about 18 months ago—just under. It was set up to build collective efficacy, because what people out there are seeing is that there's a confusion of roles, in what the regions are doing, and it was building that collective efficacy so everyone was behind the wheel. So, they've been looking at who is doing what for the last 18 months, and exploring and making some changes themselves. It's not just what they do with Government or what they do with each other; it's just happened that it's timely, because one of the key bits of feedback we believe we will get from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development is we have had co-construction, we'd had collective effort, but we need to do more, particularly within the middle tier. This is not controlled by Government, it is arm's length from Government, and it's not their job to get it ready for the new curriculum—that's a key part of it. This group will have an ongoing role; it's not a task and finish group. It does feed back in to the Minister but there's no formal mechanism by which they have to report.
Hefin David AM: Okay, that's very clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got supplementaries from Suzy, then Siân.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Briefly, please.
Suzy Davies AM: I think this is a really interesting evidence session. What I'm about to say, I say it even though I'm a big localist: it all seems to be heading in one direction of a national service. Is the strategic group even thinking in these terms, obviously building in local accountability? But it'll just make it so much easier in terms of accountability and consistency to monitor what the middle tier does, if it's a national service, like the National Adoption Service. Local delivery, national service—is it heading in that direction?
Kirsty Williams AM: That's not the intention of setting the group up. As Steve just said, I receive feedback from Dylan, because I meet Dylan in this particular capacity on a planned basis. He is there to give me advice on the middle tier, and to give me advice on what he thinks Welsh Government needs to do. But I've not had that conversation with him about a national service.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, thank you for that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Siân.
Sian Gwenllian AM: What I was going to raise has been answered already, that is that, from what I can see, the work that Professor Dylan Jones is doing has evolved somewhat. I felt that, originally, the idea was to look at the middle tier in terms of any kind of duplication that was happening, and where it was possible to tighten up the people going into schools from different directions. But it appears that it has evolved to be something that's much more than that, and that it is placing a focus on the curriculum and other aspects of the educational system. Is there a risk for them to lose focus in that sense?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, not at all. I think they are very, very clear around establishing roles and responsibilities for each of the players and to be very clear about the expectations that each part of the middle tier can have of each other, as to what they can expect from their partners in the middle tier. And absolutely, it is about making sure that there isn't duplication, that people aren't second-guessing each other's work, and there are clear demarcations about who does what in the system, and, as I said, knowing that you can rely on your colleague in the middle tier to do the bit that they are responsible for. So, I don't think there's a question of it losing focus.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got a lot of areas to cover so we are going to have to pick up our pace a bit. The next questions are from Siân Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thinking about you as a Minister trying to see what the long-term trends are with regard to raising standards and improving educational attainment, is that difficult, because the performance measures have changed, haven't they? We can't compare like-for-like now, because of the changes that have been made in the way that performance is measured. So, to begin with, is that a challenge, to see whether progress has been made? And secondly, what evidence do you as Minister use to look at the long-term trends?
Kirsty Williams AM: The first thing to say, with regard to changes to performance measures—you're right that change to those does make it, in some cases, more difficult to look at trends over a period of time. But those changes are made for really good reasons. If we change a performance measure, it is done to ensure that it is in the best interests of learners. And I think the best interests of learners always trumps the ease of comparison. I understand that, for researchers and for opposition Members, even for Ministers, it would be simpler to have the same set of measures over a period of time. But if we know that those things are driving behaviours that are unhelpful to children, and not in the best interests of children, then we have to change them, even thought that then does create challenges in different areas. With regard to what do we look at, there are a number of ways that we gain data and look at data in the system: everything from the categorisation system we spoke of earlier, and trends in categorisation; we look at Estyn reports; we continue to look at examination results. But we're trying to develop a broader range of data and statistics that give us a whole picture of the education performance, rather than narrowing down on one simple indicator that tells you one thing but doesn't tell you everything. But I don't know, Steve, if there's anything further that you'd like to add.
Steve Davies: It's going back to what the Member raised earlier, in terms of the range of things that you look at—things that can make a difference. So, when Estyn review schools, or we're looking to develop national frameworks for things like mental health and well-being, which look to the practice that enables raising standards, it's collecting that information, both at a national level, through the annual review of Estyn, as well as our engagement with regions and local authorities. So, it's looking at the evidence base that goes beyond, but impacts on data. And, inevitably, we will use the Programme for International Student Assessment, and any other external assessments that come through organisations like the OECD. And even where we've changed the performance measures, we still have, at national level, the ongoing data. So, if you looked at level 2 plus, we believe it is important that children get five good GCSEs—for higher education and for employment. So, we've not lost sight of those at a national level—we're not using them as a narrow set of performance measures for individual schools.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, if we look at—level 2 plus is a good example. We know that a relentless focus on that single measure, as a way of judging the system, leads to a set of behaviours in schools. It narrows the focus onto a certain part of the cohort, it narrows the curriculum, when we know that children—
Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm not challenging the fact that you've changed the performance measures—I understand that, and having a broader way of looking is better in the long run. I'm just saying, because there's been this change, it makes it more of a challenge—whilst accepting why you've made the changes, but it does present more of a challenge, presumably, because you have to look at more indicators, and take evidence from different places. But I take it that you're confident that the trajectory is going in the right way.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, I think we are making improvements. But you're right: it does make it more challenging. But those changes are being made for the right reasons, as I said, whether that be at level 2 plus. Look at English literature. I understand why perhaps a performance measure around English was introduced, but the effect of that was that significant numbers of children—and, it must be said, usually children who are entitled to free school meals—were suddenly not sitting English literature GCSE. We've changed that performance measure, and guess what? Last year, we saw a significant increase in the number of children that were sitting English literature GCSE. For standards of literacy and oracy, I think studying literature is really, really important, before we even get into the joy of introducing children to the written word and the love of reading. So, we make changes. Yes, it causes challenges, but we're making those changes because we believe that they are in the best interest of children, and that has to trump ease of comparison.
Lynne Neagle AM: Siân.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Why have you decided to ask the consortia, Estyn and so on not to report on local data or regional level data? How do we then come to conclusions about what is working if it isn't presented on a local authority and regional basis?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think the thing to say about the communications from Welsh Government, Estyn, and the WLGA is it's not about not communicating the data, it's about challenging people on how that data should be used. So, the data is still available, but it's a challenge to them about how to use that data. So, for instance, when we're presenting data that compares local authority to local authority, you could have a local authority that says, 'There we go, I'm above the national average. I don't need to worry about the education in my local authority, because I'm above the average, or I'm better than my neighbour.' That doesn't necessarily mean that everything is right in your local education authority. Perhaps your children should be doing even better than what you're presented with. So, actually, it's not about hiding data; it's about how you use the data appropriately. And sometimes, how we were presenting data in the past was lulling some people into a false sense of security about the performance of their system. So, it's about how you use data, and that's what the communication from Welsh Government and the WLGA and Estyn was about: think very carefully about this data and what it's telling you about your system, and don't be lulled into a false sense of security that you may be doing brilliantly. Or, perhaps, looking at your data, you may think, 'Oh, my goodness me, we're not doing very well at all', but, actually, more careful consideration of that might show that your school's impact on those children is really, really a positive one. So, you've got to use that data in the context. So, it's not about less data. If anything, it's about more data and, crucially for me, it's about more intelligent use and interrogation of that data, about truly what it's telling you about your system.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But again, the Welsh Government—. You have continued to publish the local and regional level data. So, doesn't that contradict what you've been telling the consortia and everyone else?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, not at all. As I said, we're not in the business of trying to hide data—I believe absolutely in full transparency. And in terms of level 2 data, I think I'm not moving away from the point that I think it's really important that more and more children get five really good GCSEs. I think it's important for their life chances. It is about how that data is used, not about hiding data or making that data not available.
Steve Davies: Can I, very briefly—? We didn't just send a letter out collectively. We've now carried out training jointly with WLGA and Estyn on how to use that data. So, it's not just looking where your LA is; it's also not looking at whether your school's better than average for the authority. And it is well received, and it should broaden the approach of scrutiny committees to beyond what historically was, if I'm honest, looking at the league table for their authority or looking at the league table of local authorities. It's not that they shouldn't be looking at that, but they need to dig much, much deeper underneath it.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to go on now to Suzy. I'm going to appeal for brief questions and brief answers so that we can cover the rest of the questions.
Suzy Davies AM: I'll shorten these questions, okay. We know why you got rid of the old measures. We've got interim measures now. What are they telling you about the success you've had in trying to avoid the bad behaviour? Short answers.
Kirsty Williams AM: It's impossible. [Laughter.] I think it's inevitable: whatever kind of measures we put in place, people will look to maximise their success in those measures, and I don't think we'll ever come up with a system where those measures are absolutely perfect. What's really important to me is that we're really, really, really challenging schools to look at the performance of all of their children, rather than just at a very, very narrow cohort around those C/D boundaries, which we knew was detrimental, potentially, to more able and talented children and really pushing those Bs to As and those As to A*s, and children for whom actually just getting in to school on a daily basis is an achievement, and the school has done well to provide that. So, our new capped 9 makes sure that there is breadth across a range of subjects, rather than just focusing on a narrower and narrower bunch of subject opportunities for children, and our new third-third-third system enables schools to really look at their performance. So if their capped 9 score is high, what's driving that? Is it because the bottom third of the cohort is doing really well, and the impact on those children is above and beyond what could be expected, but actually, you're not doing very well for your more able and talented; you're not pushing them on? Alternatively, maybe your capped 9 score is because your MAT children are doing incredibly well, but actually, you're not really making the progress for the middle tier of those children. It allows us to have a greater focus on the performance of our FSM children—where they really are within that system. So, it's a much more granular—. And crucially for me, it looks at the impact for every child, because every child has to matter in the system, and what we had before was a narrowing of curriculum choice and a narrowing on a certain cohort of children.
Suzy Davies AM: So are the permanent measures likely to be pretty similar to what you've got now? Because the research—I don't know if the research is complete yet. When will you be publishing the new permanent evaluation?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sue, you're right: they're interim measures at the moment, and we will need to make sure that the performance measures are aligned to the new curriculum. That, potentially, of course—. Because Wales's review of qualifications potentially has an impact on what those finally will look like, so that work is ongoing at the moment, and unless Steve can tell me off the top of his head when we expect that to be completed by, I will send you a note. But they're interim at the moment, because we need to align them to the new curriculum.
Suzy Davies AM: I think we understand that. [Inaudible.]—date.
Steve Davies: No, no. This is not a quick fix. This is a two to three-year research base. The new qualifications for the new curriculum will not start until 2025. They have to be in place for 2022. There's a three-year roll on. I would expect the broad structure of the interim measures to continue over that time. There will be some tweaks for consistency. It's what's wrapped around those interim measures that I touched on earlier: the other evidence that we bring to bear about the effectiveness of a school, but we do want to say to schools that on the whole, broadly speaking, the interim measures will carry on for two, three years.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, and the reason I asked that is right at the beginning of this session, the Minister said to the Chair that this £100 million that's going into school improvements will be going into things that work. We need some evidence that the interim measures are going to work as well, so when are they going to be evaluated?
Steve Davies: Well, we've only just used them for one year.
Suzy Davies AM: That's what I'm asking you.
Steve Davies: We've signalled that they're only going to be in place for three years. We are carrying out our own review of the impact of those and that's been built in, but I expect the OECD report—because it is an extensive report—to give us feedback on how those things are working now, and some steer, as they did with the last report, as to the direction we would want to go into.
Kirsty Williams AM: And what I'm also interested in is those performance management measures around schools. Yes, they're about outcomes for children, but actually are about a broader suite of behaviours within that school, so, yes, qualifications and grades are an important part of a performance measure, but actually, I have other expectations of schools, above and beyond simply qualifications. And so, we would want our permanent set of performance measures to look at a wider set of behaviours within a school, and I think because—. Exams are important—of course they are, qualifications are important—but the way in which those schools achieve those results are also important.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Would you anticipate that including well-being, then?
Suzy Davies AM: In a whole-school approach.
Kirsty Williams AM: I absolutely—and we need to find a way of how we can truly measure that. Sometimes, children's well-being is influenced by lots of things outside the control of a school. So, I don't want schools to be held accountable for things that they have no control over, because of the circumstances in which a child may be living. But, absolutely: well-being and how the culture of the school addresses well-being is really important to me.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Suzy. Move on to PISA, please.
Suzy Davies AM: How useful is PISA for you in helping school improvement? I know that it's not always the thing that you enjoy watching or looking out for. But, genuinely, how useful is it?
Kirsty Williams AM: It is one of a range of tools that we need to look at. Siân, quite rightly, talked about consistency. PISA is one thing where there is a level of consistency, so it will continue to be, I think, an important part of how we test how our system is doing.
Suzy Davies AM: We know that you are a little bit encouraged, but we are not out of the woods yet. You mentioned this in Plenary when we talked about PISA. How confident are you that we are on track for meeting these targets that were set before your time, or do you think that having those targets is helpful? Is it setting up aspirations that are incapable of being met within a period of time?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, those long-term targets of a score around 500 are part of 'Our National Mission', and we have to keep the pressure on to strive. They are testing, but we have to keep the pressure on to strive to reach them. In some cases, I can be quite encouraged. If we look at reading scores for girls, we are almost there, but that just demonstrates what a journey we've got with our boys to address. For me, one of the ways in which we will reach those targets and achieve them is further progress on our more able and talented children. Although we are now performing at an OECD average, I will be the first person to admit that, although we have seen an improvement in the higher level skills of our more able and talented children, we do not perform at an OECD average with regard to those level 6 and level 5 scores.
Suzy Davies AM: Even within the UK, really, we are quite far behind.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. So, I think that's where we really need to push on. That's one of the reasons why we have introduced a more able and talented budget to support that, and our Seren programme, which is delivering fantastic results post-16. That's why we're introducing the principles of Seren earlier into children's careers, bringing it down from year 9 upwards, to be able to drive improvements. So, I think that that's the area that we are particularly keen to work on: making sure that more of our children perform at the OECD average at level 5 and level 6. Clearly, we've got more work to do on reading. We are working with southern Ireland, who have consistently done well with reading scores, to look to see what lessons we can learn to press on with there with reading.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. My final question on this. You recognise it as a priority, particularly for boys. Does that mean that the focus will then drift slightly from maths, where there has been some success; and drift from science, where the encouragement of more people to take GCSE science has reduced the number of high-level passes?
Kirsty Williams AM: First, we have to have a system that is capable of doing all of those of things at the same time. We can't accept a system that says, 'Well, we can do a bit over here, but that means we have to—.' We have to have a system, Suzy, that can drive improvements at all levels. That's my expectation.
Suzy Davies AM: The balloon needs to be bigger not just squeezing it at one end.
Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely, yes. That's my expectation of this system. You have to deliver across all of these. We have seen some progress. As I've said, it's far from perfect, and we've got more work to do, but we have to deliver across all three domains, as we did last time. And I'm not going to make any apologies for changing the performance indicators around science. It was a travesty that there were children who never had the opportunity to sit a science GCSE. We don't have to make assumptions about the nature of many, many, many of those children. We have seen a significant increase in the number of children who are having the opportunity to sit GCSE science and who are passing GCSE science. So, I'm not going to make any apologies about that. One of the reasons that I suspect we have ended up with poor science scores is because of the previous policy around science entries and science qualifications. Again, one of the reasons that we have changed it isn't just solely because we need to do better in PISA, but I think that by changing it, we will see an impact on PISA.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you for that.
Lynne Neagle AM: The final set of questions is from Siân Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: I just want to discuss an issue that I know is important to you, namely closing the attainment gap between pupils who are eligible for free school meals and those who are not eligible for free school meals. Unfortunately, the problem persists, doesn't it?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. We are not where we need to be in terms of the performance, not only of our children on free school meals, but the performance of our looked-after children, and the performance of some children from some ethnic minority groups. So, we will continue to look to support those learners in a variety of ways, again looking to amend our practice on the basis of evidence that is given to us from our experts who are there to advise us. There is clearly more that we need to do. There has been some progress in some areas, but it is not where I would want it to be.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But, this is despite the fact that there is £475 million that has been invested in the pupil development grant, for this exact purpose of closing the attainment gap. But, the problem persists, and in some places, it's deteriorating.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, I am not shying away from any assumption or declaration that we need to do better. But, I do think that we need to acknowledge where progress has been made. If we go back to look at what PISA has said about our performance, the PISA results show that pupils in Wales are relatively more able to overcome the disadvantage of their background than is the average in OECD countries. So, our children are doing better in that, and that gives me encouragement. That's not me saying that; that's there. If we look at pupils who are eligible for free school meals, they do score below their better-off counterparts in PISA by some 34 points. The gap in England is 40 points. So, again, that gap is smaller here in Wales. If we look at basic levels of qualifications, back in—. It's difficult to make comparisons because of all the reasons we have talked about, but if we look back to 2006 and we look at the very basic level of qualifications, which is a level 1 qualification, we have seen a jump from 9.4 per cent of children in 2006 achieving a level 1 qualification to over 18 per cent. So, there is progress. There is evidence that the resources that we are spending are making a difference. But, clearly, we are not where we would want to be. That's why we will continue to focus those resources on those children, where we need it. But, we need to do that earlier. Sticking plasters in years 10 and 11 aren't going to cut it. We need to get this right for those children, the moment that they come into a nursery and the moment that they start their formal education at the age of 5. That's how we are going to make the difference. Providing catch-up, of course, we need to do for those kids; we can't throw those year 10s and year 11s to the wind. We have to support those children. But, we will see real improvement when we get in there earlier.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But I'm sure that that is a disappointment to you, because it has been a personal priority for you as well. In terms of minority ethnic learners, while there are some groups within that category who are achieving, there is underachievement happening here as well, isn't there? It's not consistent across the minority ethnic group. Is that something that you will be focusing upon?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and that's why we have committed to maintaining a ring-fenced grant to local authorities of some £10 million, to support education of our minority ethnic children. But, again, you are right, you are absolutely right, Siân. We need a much more sophisticated conversation about what is really going on in attainment across minority ethnic groups so that we can best target that resource and have a conversation about what the differences are. You are absolutely correct: there is a real mixed picture. If we look at black Welsh girls entitled to free school meals, they perform almost at the national average for all children—not FSM children; the national average for all children. Black Welsh boys don't, but neither do white Welsh boys. So, there is a really complex picture here, and I really welcome a debate about acknowledging the various levels of performance of BAME children, and where the gaps in performance lie. You are quite right: it is a complex picture in the system. I'm committed to continuing to support educational opportunities, and that's why have ring-fenced the minority ethnic achievement grant. There are some interesting data there. Some children are doing very, very well; others, we need to concentrate on.
Lynne Neagle AM: Siân, this will need to be the last question, I'm afraid.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Sorry?
Lynne Neagle AM: This is going to have to be the last question.
Sian Gwenllian AM: The last question.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. In terms of looked-after children, which is one of the groups where attainment isn't where we would like it to be, there was some improvement in 2016 at key stage 4, but it has been disappointing. Do we know what's been happening in 2019?
Kirsty Williams AM: The 2019 data will be published next month, and there has been significant activity. You are right: in recent years, the data have been poor and not where we would want it to be. That's why we have had a reformed approach to PDG LAC; the employment of PDG LAC co-ordinators across the regions. We've identified new resource in the new financial year to test new approaches, so, for instance, virtual school approaches, where we know, in other systems, that has worked. But, we expect the next set of data around the performance of this particular group of learners in March.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, and you hope to see progress.
Kirsty Williams AM: I don't want to speculate, but I hope so.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We have come to the end of our time, so can I thank you, Minister, and your official for attending this morning? We have had a wide-ranging and very detailed discussion that will be very useful for the committee. As usual, you will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy, but thank you again, both of you, for your attendance this morning. Diolch yn fawr. Okay. Item 3 is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from ERW providing additional information following the evidence session on 16 January. Paper to note 2 is a letter from Central South Consortium, similarly providing additional information following the evidence session. Paper to note 3 is a letter from the Noah's Ark Children's Hospital for Wales regarding children's rights in Wales, following up on some additional information there. Paper to note 4 is a letter from Qualifications Wales, providing additional information following the annual report scrutiny session in January. Item 4, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you. | |
doc_179 | User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} How do you wear this thing ?
Project Manager: Hmm . Mm mm mm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Not too many cables and stuff .
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Original . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Is recorded ? Okay ? Okay so welcome everyone . So we are here for the kickoff meeting of uh the process of designing a new remote control . So I will first start with a warm welcome opening {vocalsound} stuff ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: then uh we will uh see what will be uh our product and what will be the different step we will have to design it . And uh then we will uh discuss if we have few ideas and we will uh end uh by uh dispatching the different task you will be {disfmarker} you will have to fulfil to complete this process . So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh . Just one thing . Uh , you said twenty-five minutes , but I have something else to do uh , so gotta have another meeting uh soon ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so maybe you could hurry up a bit {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} sorry ?
User Interface: It's true . I have another meeting so if you could uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You have another meeting soon ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So you have to be quick .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , for the lawnmower project .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: So the the goal is to have a remote control so to have an advantage over our competitors we have to be original , we have to be trendy and we have to also try to be user-friendly .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So uh the design step will be divided in three uh main points . First it will be the functional design . Third is the conceptual design and then is the desired design . So the functional design is to identify the main user needs , the technical function the remote control should fulfil . And then we will move to f conceptual design where we'll specify the different component involved , what kind of user interf interface we want and what are the different uh trend in user interface and stuff like that .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And then the desired devi design will consist in uh specifically implementing {vocalsound} and detailing the choice we've uh made in the second point . So I will now ask you which is very important for the design of a new remote control for to uh each of us to to draw uh your favourite animal on the white board .
User Interface: {vocalsound} What an original idea .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Do you have any idea of which animal you want to show us ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Orangutan .
Project Manager: Okay {vocalsound} that's good .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No no n
Project Manager: {vocalsound} n n {gap}
User Interface: Can I give you the
Project Manager: You should {disfmarker}
User Interface: {disfmarker} no ? But I don't have to say anything . When I'm drawing the orangutan .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} If you want to react uh about this wonderful drawing uh {vocalsound} I'll let you uh comment .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's an abstract drawing of an orangutan .
Project Manager: Okay it's an abstract drawing .
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: I think it's nice and original . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You should write y the name I think . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I don't have a red colour . Usually orangutans have red hair so this is a very important but I don't have red pen , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes .
Project Manager: You want to draw something Christine ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay uh sorry . You have to imagine a little bit {vocalsound} um .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: This {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Of course your animal is recorded so it's not lost . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Sorry too {vocalsound} uh .
User Interface: Yes . I know .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Is this uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Wha what is this strange beast ?
Marketing: Is it beautiful ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Is it a monster ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Do you know ? It's a cat .
User Interface: It's a cat ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Isn't it ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: I thought these things did not exist .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes yes
Industrial Designer: Me {vocalsound}
Marketing: is it {disfmarker} like that .
User Interface: Ah yeah {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Ah yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: Is it better ?
Project Manager: Ah okay it's pretty . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay it's your cat . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's my cat .
User Interface: Does have a name ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: The name is Caramel .
User Interface: Caramel . Ah-ha .
Industrial Designer: Caramel .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . Olivier , do you want to {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And you {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I think I'm too short for the cables . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay I go , but next time you'll do something I'm sure . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I'm a bit short on cable .
User Interface: Next time I concentrate .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . So what could I draw ? {vocalsound} Maybe I can draw like a very simplified cow . {vocalsound} I don't know if it looks like a cow {vocalsound}
User Interface: He looks like a bong .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Like a what ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay . Sorry . No .
Industrial Designer: Quite squarey .
User Interface: Scary ?
Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: He also . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I dunno it it looks more like a donkey in fact {vocalsound} I would say .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I I think we will be finished this uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Okay so I hope that it helps you uh in the process of designing a remote control .
User Interface: Is it for uh for putting a {disfmarker} for logos , no .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Let's move on . So {disfmarker} Here the uh financial objective of our project . That is to say to to have a production cost lower than twelve point five Euros and have a selling price of twice that price t in order to target a profe profit of uh fifty uh million Euros .
User Interface: I is there a matter for a new remote control ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah if it's trendy , original I d fulfil the user needs .
User Interface: Is it uh a single device remote control or is it a multi-device remote control ?
Project Manager: We have to discuss that point .
User Interface: Ah
Project Manager: On {disfmarker}
User Interface: this is not defined at all ?
Project Manager: yeah you you can suggest points like this . So what what {disfmarker}
User Interface: Ah , okay .
Project Manager: so we have to decide for example if it can control one device or multiple . So what's {disfmarker} what are your ideas about that ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Maybe I can have the {disfmarker} your opinion from the marketing side ?
User Interface: Well uh do we sell other stuff ? Uh if if we bundle the remote control with something uh to sell then it could be a single device , otherwise it could be programmable one otherwise who would buy a remote control from us .
Project Manager: Okay , so if it selled uh by its own i it it would rather be for multiple device .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Do you agree ?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah . So maybe it should be for multiple devices . And uh do you have any ideas um of uh design ideas or any uh uh technical requirement we we should uh fulfil ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I think we shouldn't have too many b for my part . I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: No , I couldn I cannot fi think of any requirements right now . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: If we don't have so many buttons could be nice .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Few buttons . Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And do you have it also to be {disfmarker} to be lighted in order to be used in the dark ? Might be a good idea .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . And do you have any um any uh idea of the trend {disfmarker} the trend in domain , what it shouldn't {disfmarker} it should look like , or things like that ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Something which is not squarey maybe uh , not a box .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: With rou okay . Like for {disfmarker} okay .
User Interface: Something like that , least fits in your hand .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: The basic requirement .
Project Manager: So . Fit in your hand , yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Only a buck .
Project Manager: And also it have , i it may be {vocalsound} it may be important for the remote control to be uh {disfmarker} To , to resist to various shocks that can happen if it fall .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Waterproof . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Water-proof as well .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And I think we should have a device {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Maybe it is original because you can uh use it in your uh {disfmarker} in your bath whereas the others can't .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Maybe water-proof would be very original .
Industrial Designer: Sorry . {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Havin having a water-proof remote control so that the people can uh use it in their bath .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: That could be uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: B it seems uh so , but uh if you don't have an waterproof remote control it means you can just cover it with some plastic and you can sort of f
Project Manager: Yeah but , it is still something uh you have to buy and that is um not maybe very {disfmarker}
User Interface: And , and that's one of the {disfmarker} that's one of the shock {disfmarker} I mean there are people that have a remote control and they are worried that it's going to break and they put some extra plastic around it .
Project Manager: Yeah , mayb B
User Interface: That's people {gap} they actually do it themselves .
Project Manager: But maybe we can bulk it with uh already this plastic thing and uh the waterproof uh stuff as well .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {gap} directly .
User Interface: I it will look a bulky in that case .
Project Manager: Yeah . Maybe we can sell uh all that together , so so plastic protection and uh and a waterproof box as well .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: That might be good uh track to follow .
User Interface: Like as an optional thing .
Project Manager: Optional or selled with it ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And I I think we should have something , most of the time I I lose my remote control .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: We should have s uh special bu button on the T_V_ to make the remote control beeping .
Project Manager: Maybe we can have uh {disfmarker} But we don't design the T_V_ .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Maybe we can have uh something you whistle and uh the remote control uh beep .
Industrial Designer: Ah yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Barks .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , barks , yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Barks .
Project Manager: So we can uh have a whistle uh remote control ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah whistle .
Project Manager: I don't know , whistle-able ? {vocalsound} Th
Industrial Designer: Whistle tracking . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Whistle tracking yeah . Whistle tracking remote control . That's a good idea , that's very original and that's can uh improve .
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's that's quite cool , but uh of course we {disfmarker} you don't normally need uh any audio uh recording stuff on your remote control right ?
Project Manager: Yeah d d uh .
User Interface: So i it's just going to add t to the cost .
Project Manager: Yeah but s still we have to mm we have to {vocalsound} have an advantage over our competitors . I think this is a good advantage .
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's cool . I think I like the idea , but I'm not sure about the what you ,
Project Manager: Yeah . We have to ask {disfmarker}
User Interface: who is giving {disfmarker} who's giving who's giving our budget . Who's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . We have to ask the quest of that's uh design to the uh Industrial um Designer .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} yeah {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Which is you .
User Interface: 'Kay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay so try to find that for next meeting . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . So next meeting is in thirty minutes or so uh . {vocalsound} Don't pani .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Don't panic . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So so I will ask the Industrial Designer to find out more about this industrial design so any working {disfmarker} any working function we have discussed .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So then I will ask the User Interf Interface Designer to to think about the point we discussed like the number of buttons , the the fact that is lighted or not , things like that , and what would be convenient for the user .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And also um {vocalsound} I will ask the Market Expert to uh try to find out what are the absolute requirements , what is absolutely needed in a remote control uh for the user . So . And then uh I will uh just ask you to think about that and uh look at your mail because you will receive uh some good advice soon . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: So . Thank you I think that's all for this point .
User Interface: Good .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Thank you {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh , so we come back in five minutes ? Half an hour .
Project Manager: Anyway you will receive some messages . {vocalsound} Be careful . You eat it ? Does it move uh ? Okay , but I don't know if it uh is still correctly uh {disfmarker} We'll see .
Industrial Designer: Ah . {gap} | |
doc_180 | Project Manager: Uh , making a profit of fifty million Euros . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright so twenty five .
User Interface: Mm 'kay .
Project Manager: So , it's go gonna have to be be pretty damn trendy . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So yeah , I've {disfmarker} The only the only remote controls I've used usually come with the television , and they're fairly basic .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , I was thinking that as well , I think the the only ones that I've seen that you buy are the sort of one for all type things where they're ,
User Interface: Yeah the universal ones . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: yeah . So presumably that might be an idea to put into .
Industrial Designer: But but to sell it for twenty five you need a lot of neat features . For sure .
Marketing: Slim .
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh 'cause I mean , what {disfmarker} uh twenty five Euros , that's about I dunno , fifteen Pounds or so ? And that's quite a lot for a remote control .
User Interface: Mm-hmm , it's about that .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um well my first thoughts would be most remote controls are grey or black . As you said they come with the T_V_ so it's normally just your basic grey black remote control {gap} functions ,
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
User Interface: so maybe we could think about colour ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Make {disfmarker} that might make it a bit different from the rest at least . Um , and as you say , we need to have some kind of gimmick , so um I thought maybe something like if you lose it and you can whistle ,
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} The the keyrings , yeah yeah .
User Interface: you know those things ? Because we always lose our remote control .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh yeah uh ,
Project Manager: Okay , that's cool .
Marketing: being as a Marketing Exper Expert I will like to say like before deciding the cost of this remote control or any other things we must see the market potential for this product like what is the competition in the market ? What are the available prices of the other remote controls in the prices ?
Project Manager: {gap} Okay .
Marketing: What speciality other remote controls are having and how complicated it is to use these remote controls as compared to other remote controls available in the market . So before deciding or before finalising this project , we must discuss all these things , like {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: and apart from this , it should be having a good look also , because people really li uh like to play with it when they are watching movies or playing with {gap} or playing with their C_D_ player , M_P_ three player like any electronic devices .
User Interface: Mm . Mm-hmm .
Marketing: They really want to have something good , having a good design in their hands ,
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: so , yes ,
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Marketing: all this .
Industrial Designer: Uh , what do we think a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So , we're looking for {disfmarker} {gap} 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: What do we think a good size would be for this ? {gap}
Project Manager: We're {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: 'Cause I I know as you add more buttons to the remote it sometimes gets so big and clunky
Project Manager: Sorry , carry on . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and there's just like a hundred buttons on it ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: or you could have a really small slim one but then you could lose it easily . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah . Then you lose it , yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Kind of um , maybe more like a P_D_A_ kind of , just hand held , like ,
Project Manager: For for uh
User Interface: 'cause {disfmarker}
Project Manager: remember we're trying to make it for twelve Euros fifty . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . No , I wasn't , no sorry I wasn't thinking of the screen of like a P_D_A_
Project Manager: Okay well right we'll have to um {disfmarker} I'll {disfmarker}
User Interface: but
Project Manager: we're k having another meeting in half an hour so um
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: we should all look into a bit uh , oh actually , no , we'll allocate . So you do the looking around at other remote controls .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um , if you could maybe come up with sort of shapes and suggested shades or whatever , and you could look into um {vocalsound} basically how how it's made I_E_ like how you make it all in one , how {disfmarker} what sort of materials are available to you whatever . And obviously , other instructions will come from the personal coach .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: Which will probably just usurp what I said so {disfmarker}
User Interface: So you want me to look at shapes and everything you said ?
Project Manager: Shapes and colours and {disfmarker} um basically how to make it attractive .
User Interface: Yep . Okay .
Project Manager: Uh .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: And you look at competition and design .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: Cool . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: So
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: we have uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Wait for emails ?
Marketing: Uh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , groovy . And no doubt we'll get um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh no , {gap} .
Project Manager: Sorry .
User Interface: Sorry
Project Manager: We'll get um warnings for next meetings as well .
User Interface: it's okay . Okay , cool .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . I shall {disfmarker} I can't imagine these {gap} are worth much . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: Okay . Fashion into electronic . Okay . | |
doc_181 | The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 23rd meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. A reminder to all members that in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not also be connected to the video conference. For those of you who are joining via video conference, I will remind you that when speaking you should be on the same channel as the language you are speaking, and please use your headsets. As usual, please direct your remarks through the chair. As I understand, there are no ministerial announcements today. We will now proceed to presenting petitions. I remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of this special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, I ask that they please come and drop their signed certificates off at the table once the petition is presented. I would ask members to be very brief and concise, and to summarize the exact content of the petition. We will continue. The first person presenting a petition today is Ms. May.
Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I present two petitions this morning. The residents of SaanichGulf Islands are calling on the government to simplify the process for protection of marine protected areas. It's a multi-layered communication process. The marine protected area first proposed in the 1970s for the southern Strait of Georgia, now called the Salish Sea, has been awaiting designation for so long that it was originally endorsed by Jacques Cousteau. That gives us a sense for why petitioners are calling for a simplified and more rapid process. The second petition is from petitioners who are very concerned about our obligations under the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and our commitments under the Truth and Reconciliation Commission calls to action. They specifically reference the RCMP violation of UNDRIP in its actions on Wet'suwet'en territory and ask the government to commit to actually living the principles embodied in UNDRIP.
The Chair: We will now go to Mr. Hardie.
Mr. Ken Hardie (FleetwoodPort Kells, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am presenting a petition on behalf of the one in a million Canadians who suffer severe and adverse effects from vaccinations. GuillainBarre syndrome is very debilitating, and this petition seeks the setting up of a no-fault accident or compensation system to help offset the loss of work, the loss of wages and the loss of quality of life that many of these people suffer. I'm pleased to present this petition pursuant to Standing Order 36.
The Chair: Mr.Trudel, you have the floor.
Mr. Denis Trudel (LongueuilSaint-Hubert, BQ): Mr.Chair, culture is the soul of a people. Over the past 20years or so, culture, especially music, has never been as accessible as it is now. Paradoxically, creators' incomes have never been so low. The advent of digital technology has completely overturned the system for distributing the wealth generated by creators for the benefit of various Web stakeholders, many of whom are billionaires. This petition addresses these problems and proposes realistic solutions. The first is to set a minimum royalty model for streaming platforms for artists. The second is to update the existing private copying system. The third is for Internet and cell phone providers who sell their services as direct access to culture to share their profits with artists. The fourth is that the GAFAMs have to pay taxes on their services. Six thousand people have already signed the first version of this petition, launched last month by musician JordanOfficer and supported by singer BarbaraSecours. As an artist, I am proud to present this petition today because the issues it raises are fundamental to the survival of Quebec culture.
The Chair: We'll now continue with Mr. Genuis.
Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I have four petitions to present today. I will be as brief as you suggested, although I will observe that if some members are going on longer during petitions than they normally do, it might be because the government has taken away so many of the tools that opposition members normally have for raising important issues in the House. The first petition deals with the issue of euthanasia and long-term care. The petitioners are concerned that instead of focusing on improving medically assisted life, something that we know is a major issue in light of recent revelations, the government has put so much time and legislative energy into efforts to continually further expand euthanasia in Canada and remove vital safeguards. The second petition speaks to the ongoing conversations happening in Canada around systemic discrimination and systemic racism. I think we do need to reflect on systemic discrimination. This petition deals specifically with Bill 21 in Quebec and raises concerns. The reality of the way that bill applies is that people from certain backgrounds who wish to practise their faith are not able to fully participate in Canadian society if they are employed in the public service. This petition asks the government to provide a response on that issue, something it hasn't done in response to past petitions on this. The third petition deals with the issue of firearms. The petitioners want to see the government take a strong response in dealing with illegal guns and gun smuggling. The petition notes that the vast majority of firearms-related crimes in Canada involves illegal guns. At the same time, the petitioners are concerned that the government has the wrong focusthat is, harassing law-abiding firearms ownerswithout putting in place substantial measures to deal with illegal guns. The petitioners want to see the reversal of the order in council from May 1 and strong measures to deal with illegal firearms. The fourth and final petition deals with Bill S-204, a bill that would make it a criminal offence for a Canadian to go abroad and receive an organ from a person who has not consented to giving that organ. It would also create a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to Canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking. The petitioners are supportive of Bill S-204 and of similar bills in previous parliaments and would like to see us pass that bill as soon as possible.
The Chair: Presenting petitions, Mr. Lamoureux.
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. It is with pleasure that I table another petition by the residents of Winnipeg North. These residents have signed a petition asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to put a high priority on assisting our poorest seniors. The increases to the GIS by $200, and $300 to the OAS, have been well received. They just want to highlight how important it is to support our seniors, in particular the poorest of our seniors.
The Chair: For members present in the Chamber, a reminder that they are asked to bring their petitions to the table. We'll now proceed to statements by members. We'll go to Ms. Atwin for the first one.
Mrs. Jenica Atwin (Fredericton, GP): Thank you, Mr. Chair. June 21 is National Indigenous Peoples Day, a day of acknowledgement and a day of celebration of the beautiful diversity of indigenous peoples across Turtle Island. I wish to recognize the leadership of Chief Shelley Sabattis of the Welamukotuk First Nation in Oromocto, New Brunswick. Each year she and her council, volunteers and staff go above and beyond to show appreciation for their members and to demonstrate pride and culture while promoting well-being. We gather in an event where all are welcome to take part, from traditional hand drum-making with elders to moose meat and tacos. This year we will celebrate a bit differently, but we will still stay connected, virtually and in spirit, to the vast network of indigenous peoples and allies. We need each other now more than ever. May we come together in song and stories and in solidarity. We will remember those who are not among us. I hope all of Canada will join us in observing National Indigenous Peoples Day. Mawiyapasuwok: let us come together. Nit liech.
The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Beech.
Mr. Terry Beech (Burnaby NorthSeymour, Lib.): Mr. Chair, COVID-19 is an unprecedented challenge for all communities across Canada, but as we do our part to flatten the curve, I often think about those who suit up every morning to serve on the front lines of our health care system. My mother is a home care worker and my sister is a nurse. Even before the crisis, they would often share the hardships they faced on a day-to-day basis. It's a tough job at the best of times. In a pandemic, these jobs are life-threatening. I think we can all agree that these workers deserve more than our good wishes. They deserve a raise. That is why we have worked with the provinces to implement pandemic pay. In British Columbia more than 250,000 front-line workers are eligible for this program. That works out to a pay increase of about $4 an hour. It's a small show of our appreciation for their difficult and priceless contribution to our country. Share this message and say thanks to our front-line workers, participate in the 7 p.m. cheer, and order a pizza for your local nurses. It's the least we can do.
The Chair: We'll now go on to Mr. Shipley.
Mr. Doug Shipley (BarrieSpringwaterOro-Medonte, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. We've been living in difficult times. Slowly, we are getting back to some resemblance of normalcy, although unfortunately not soon enough for some of our great summer festivals. It will not be normal in BarrieSpringwaterOro-Medonte this summer without the iconic Boots and Hearts weekend music festival, Kempenfest, Oro World's Fair, the Elmvale Fall Fair, or the Midhurst Autumnfest. Canada Day celebrations have been cancelled, but we can still celebrate the great nation we call home. Because of the lack of Canada Day celebrations, I've created Happy Canada Day lawn signs that are available through my constituency office, free to all residents of BarrieSpringwaterOro-Medonte. I'm also hosting a drive-through party on Canada Day at the Royal Canadian Legion on St. Vincent Street in Barrie. All are welcome to attend. There will be cupcakes for all. Please drop by the legion between 11 a.m. and 2 p.m., and we can celebrate Canada Day safely together. Thank you and have a great summer.
The Chair: Now we'll go on to Ms. Young.
Ms. Kate Young (London West, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Among the countless ordinary Canadians who have stepped up to do extraordinary work during COVID-19, I wish to draw attention to our teachers. Teachers have always had a special place in my heart. My father was a teacher, and my daughter-in-law, Kelly Webb, is one now. I'm certain that my colleagues can all easily remember a teacher in their past who played an important role in helping them achieve their potential. I remember my grade 12 English teacher, Vince Weaver, at Westminster Secondary School in London. He made me realize that I could do so much more than I believed. Across the country, as schools closed, teachers did not stop their work. Some took their classes online. Others found innovative ways to continue engaging with their students. This is not the school year anyone imagined, and what the next one will look like is unclear, but our teachers in London West and across Canada have shown that no matter what, they will be there to help our next generation shine.
The Chair: Before proceeding to the next presenter, I just want to remind the honourable members in the chamber that I realize that the six-foot limit makes it harder to whisper to each other, but we're hearing a bit of rumble, so I just want you to try to whisper at your best. Mr.Bergeron, you have the floor.
Mr. Stphane Bergeron (Montarville, BQ): Mr.Chair, on July1st, we will be celebrating one of the most important events for the riding of Montarville: the 175thanniversary of the city of Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville. The theme Proud of our traditions will be the focus of this celebration for the people of Montarville. This is a good illustration of the rich history of this municipality nestled in the western foothills of Mont-Saint-Bruno. The seigneury of Montarville was granted in1710 to the illustrious former governor of Trois-Rivires, PierreBoucher. The parish of Saint-Bruno, which took root there and in which a village grew, became a municipal corporation in1845. To this day, it is one of the most prosperous localities, with a strong sense of belonging, a very dynamic community life and jealously preserved natural environments. A whole program had been drawn up for the celebration, but the current health crisis has taken over some of the planned activities, which has in no way diminished the pride and festive spirit of the people of Montarville. On July1st, we will have a good reason to be proud, in spite of everything. Happy 175thanniversary to Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville.
The Chair: We'll now continue with Mr. Maloney.
Mr. James Maloney (EtobicokeLakeshore, Lib.): Mr. Chair, thank you for allowing me to take a moment to highlight an initiative that I started early on during the COVID-19 pandemic. The Heroes of EtobicokeLakeshore is an opportunity for citizens in my riding to recognize the contributions of those in their community who make life a bit easier. I'm pleased with the number of nominations I received that honour everyone from front-line workers to businesses that are innovating in these difficult times to volunteers who are finding new ways to reach out. I think of Daniel Lauzon who set up Food for Now, a mobile service that helps take care of the homeless. I think of Toni Varone, who helped his business clients by forgiving their rents, or young Lucas, who wanted to thank his teachers. I've been moved and inspired by the countless stories of generosity, strength, resiliency, kindness, incredible character and creativity. I want to thank all the heroes, as well as the people who nominated them. Keep them coming. Stay safe, everyone, and I wish you happy Canada Day early.
The Chair: We'll now move on to Ms. Wong.
Hon. Alice Wong (Richmond Centre, CPC): Mr. Chair, it gives me great pleasure to thank a local Richmond-based charity, the Social Diversity for Children Foundation, SDC, for its hard work both in raising funds for the purchase of personal protective equipment and in distributing this PPE to long-term care facilities and individual seniors' homes in the lower mainland of B.C. The COVID-19 relief fund is supported by a dozen other non-profits, businesses and community groups. Over the past two months, SDC has been to 32 seniors homes and senior-related organizations. In total, it has delivered masks to 7,000 care workers, staff and seniors. It is amazing to have witnessed how the younger generation have gotten involved in caring for the elderly at this very challenging time.
The Chair: We'll now go to Ms. Damoff.
Ms. Pam Damoff (Oakville NorthBurlington, Lib.): Mr. Chair, June is ALS Awareness Month, and 79 years after Lou Gehrig died from ALS little has changed. There's still no cure, and those with ALS typically die within five years of diagnosis. On June 21, Canadians will gather virtually to raise funds for ALS Canada in the Walk to End ALS. In Halton, normally we meet each year at Bronte Creek Provincial Park on the May long weekend to raise funds for ALS Canada. This year I will virtually join Tim's Titans, a team formed to honour Tim Robertson, my friend who died in 2016 after living with ALS for 13 years. I have a T-shirt, with a picture of Lou Gehrig, that says, Great Player...Lousy Disease and Tim's Titans...Great Team! ALS...Still a Lousy Disease. Join me on June 21 for the virtual Walk to End ALS to raise funds to support patients and their families and for ALS research.
The Chair: We'll now continue with Ms. Khera.
Ms. Kamal Khera (Brampton West, Lib.): Mr. Chair, on Saturday our community stood and marched in solidarity against anti-black racism. The peaceful protests that we're seeing across the country and around the world were not triggered by an isolated incident. They are fuelled by decades of ineffective action against something that is so insidious and deeply entrenched in our history, systems and institutions. For us, that is the racial inequality faced by Canada's indigenous and black communities. Anti-black racism is real. It exists right here in Canada, in our communities, including in Brampton. It exists when racialized students at McCrimmon Middle School are called McCriminals. It exists when a shocking report exposes the Peel District School Board's failure to work fairly with the black community. It exists when D'Andre Campbell, who was fighting mental illness, loses his life at the hands of the police. It is clear that we need reform. We need to dismantle the systems that allow this privilege and oppression to take form, and address the unconscious bias plaguing our institutions. We'll need to be bold, and the time to do that is now.
The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Lloyd.
Mr. Dane Lloyd (Sturgeon RiverParkland, CPC): Mr. Chair, a few months ago I rose in the House on the eve of our closure due to COVID-19. I told Canadians we must not give in to fear, that we would carry on and get through this crisis stronger than ever. Today, in this city and across Canada, Canadians are enjoying a beer on their favourite patios. Businesses are reopening, jobs are returning and our lives are starting to feel a bit normal again. Canadians pulled together, and because of that we did not see the devastating death toll that many had predicted. Life may be returning to normal, but unfortunately, here in this chamber of democracy, the people's voices continue to be shut down. There is no good reason for Parliament to be suspended today. In the words of my grandfather, it's time for the Liberals to get with the program and bring back the House.
The Chair: We will now proceed with Ms. Jones.
Ms. Yvonne Jones (Labrador, Lib.): Mr. Chair, from in-person learning to virtual classrooms, COVID-19 has drastically changed the lives of students across the country, especially those in post-secondary education who are worried about covering costs like tuition or rent this coming fall. Our government recognized that students should not have to worry or put their futures on pause during this difficult time. That's why last month the federal government introduced the Canada emergency student benefit. If you're a high school student headed to a post-secondary school, or a current post-secondary student or a recent graduate, you can receive the Canada emergency student benefit every four weeks and have the financial support that you need to save for school. We also doubled Canada student grants and loans, enhanced the student loan program, increased supports for indigenous post-secondary education and introduced the Canada student service grant for those who wish to pursue it. Our government is here to help all students get the support they need to pursue their future goals successfully. I wish them all the very best, and I wish all of you, my colleagues and those across Canada, a very happy National Indigenous Peoples Day, which is coming up on June 21.
The Chair: I want to remind the honourable members to keep to their 60 seconds so that we don't go over the time. I'm sure it would be a lot easier for everyone if we stuck to that limit. We will now go to Mr. Aitchison.
Mr. Scott Aitchison (Parry SoundMuskoka, CPC): Mr. Chair, I rise today to once again implore the government to do something about the horrible lack of access to and crazy cost of rural Internet service. Right now, too many areas of my riding have no access to rural Internet service at all, and those who can get service are paying through the nose. I've even heard constituents say that during this pandemic, they are having to choose between feeding their kids and educating them. Over the last few weeks, Conservatives have been consulting with rural Canadians, and the results are in. My constituents are tired of fancy political promises. They are frustrated beyond belief by the new challenges created by this pandemic. They are absolutely fed up with having their pleas ignored. All we want is affordable and reliable Internet service. Is that too much to ask of the government?
The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. MacGregor.
Mr. Alistair MacGregor (CowichanMalahatLangford, NDP): Mr. Chair, these last few months have been incredibly challenging for the residents of CowichanMalahatLangford, who have been forced to deal with the economic and social consequences of COVID-19. The pandemic has laid bare the inadequacies of our social safety net, the weakness in our supply chains and the dependence of our society on essential workers, who often work long hours for low wages, putting themselves and their families at risk. We've also been forced to confront the systemic inequality, poverty and racism that continue to hold so many people back from achieving their full potential. I will not dishonour the sacrifice that so many have made during this time by allowing us to go back to the status quo that got us here in the first place. I will not apologize for demanding that the most vulnerable in our society get the supports and opportunities they need to live with dignity, and I will not relent from pushing my political colleagues to summon the courage necessary to implement policies that lead to environmental, economic and social justice.
The Chair: I now give the floor to Mr.Blaney.
Hon. Steven Blaney (BellechasseLes EtcheminsLvis, CPC): Mr.Chair, here is a beautiful story, the story of a woman from Bellechasse, a courageous young mother from Saint-Malachie, Marie-ChristineGoupil. With three children, including the eldest daughter with a disability, and realizing that her daughter with a disability had special clothing needs, she decided to go into business to meet the needs of other parents who, like her, were facing their child's clothing challenges. Last week, she presented her Handy clothing collection on the show Dans l'il du dragon. It was a very emotional moment for the audience and the dragons. They were so touched that they decided to give her the amount she wanted without diluting her shares. The video of her presentation has already been viewed over 1million times on social networks. Marie-ChristineGoupil has discovered a passion for entrepreneurship and has moved and inspired many people with her passionate and courageous attitude. Congratulations, Ms.Goupil, your example makes us proud.
The Chair: Mr.Blanchet, you have the floor.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ): Thank you, Mr.Chair. I lend my voice to the Chief of the Assembly of First Nations of Quebec-Labrador, GhislainPicard, whose message is as follows: There have been no fewer than 14reports and conclusions of commissions of inquiry since1967 highlighting major problems in relations between law enforcement agencies and indigenous people. Each time, the conclusions have been overwhelming and highlight a disturbing reality. The justice system has failed indigenous people. Are you going to respond, as you too often do, by moving on to the next one, or are you going to do what we expect you to do, which is to recognize that the justice system discriminates against indigenous people and that we have no less right to security than the rest of the population? In three months, police interventions have claimed more victims among our members than the pandemic. But it is not enough to simply take a knee and denounce racism. It's about standing up and taking action. Those are the words of GhislainPicard.
The Chair: We'll now continue with Ms. Harder.
Ms. Rachael Harder (Lethbridge, CPC): Over the last few months, Canada's democracy has been disregarded and an autocracy has been resurrected in its place. By refusing to hold regular parliamentary sittings, Mr. Trudeau is sending a strong message to the Canadian public that he alone is the one who matters. In 2014, he professed that Canadians want their Members of Parliament to be effective voices for their communities in Ottawa, and not merely mouthpieces for an all-too-powerful Prime Minister. As it stands, however, he has shut down Parliament. Effectively, he has stripped us, the opposition, of our privileges and our powers. Sadly, Mr. Trudeau has become the all-too-powerful Prime Minister that he once warned against. A government that does not allow for effective opposition is not functioning in the best interest of Canadians; it is operating in the best interest of itself and, even more so, the interest of the Prime Minister. Canadians deserve to flourish in a democracy, not merely survive under the autocracy that this Prime Minister has created.
The Chair: We'll now go on to Ms. Zahid.
Mrs. Salma Zahid (Scarborough Centre, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I would like to recognize the work of Agincourt Community Services Association and its tireless executive director, Lee Soda, who have been serving our community during the COVID-19 pandemic. Under more pressure than ever, their staff and volunteers continue to serve a community whose need was great even before the crisis. Their food bank helps over 4,000 people weekly. They have opened outdoor washrooms and hand-washing stations for vulnerable communities and are delivering groceries and other essentials to vulnerable seniors. ACSA is a bridge between those who can help and those who need help, and they are just one example of how our community has come together to meet this challenge. There are restaurants and businesses donating meals to front-line workers, residents answering the call to stock the food bank shelves and neighbours looking in on the vulnerable and isolated. I am so proud of our community's spirit. Scarborough is strong.
The Chair: We'll now proceed to the questioning of ministers. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings twice in order to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to replace each other safely. The first question goes to the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Scheer.
Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Chair, for months Conservatives have been pointing out flaws in Liberal government programs that are preventing Canadians from getting the help they need. The Prime Minister has refused to make these very technical changes to get more help to Canadians who need it. For example, on the wage subsidy, more than two-thirds of the money allocated for that program has lapsed because businesses don't qualify. I have a simple question. Will the Prime Minister change the program to allow companies who have made acquisitions to access the wage subsidy to keep more people working?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Papineau, Lib.): Mr. Chair, from the very beginning we knew that as we rolled out measures, we would need to improve them and tweak them, and that's exactly what we've been doing over the past three months. We needed to make measures happen quickly for Canadians, and we did that. But we continued to improve them, to make additions and amendments so that more people could get the help they needed, including with the proposed legislation last week that expanded the reach of the wage subsidy to more businesses. Unfortunately, the Conservatives didn't even want us to debate that particular piece of legislation.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Actually, Mr. Chair, it was the Liberals who said no to the motion to allow this Parliament to sit to debate that motion, and even in that legislation they refused to allow businesses who have made acquisitions to access the program. Now, when we look at the rent relief program, it is so difficult to apply for it that many landlords are refusing to bother, leaving even more small businesses to fall through the cracks. In fact, of the $3 billion allocated to the rent relief program, only $39 million has been paid out. That's less than 2%. Now, the Prime Minister is still using talking points from April. It's now June and he has refused to fix these programs and has successfully talked out the calendar on the days that the House of Commons could meet to discuss these programs. When will he make these changes to get more help to Canadians who need it?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, throughout this pandemic, we have constantly been updating and expanding our various programs. We recognize, in conversations with the premiers, how important it is to make sure that we're working together, the provinces and the federal government, on issues like rent subsidies where commercial rent is indeed a provincial jurisdiction. Many provinces have moved forward with the eviction bans that are necessary to go along with this, and we'll continue to work with provinces to make sure that we're getting Canadians the help they need.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, Canadians cannot wait. He has run down the clock on parliamentary sittings and he still refuses to make these changes to get more help to Canadians. Today, we learned that Telus has installed Huawei technology in downtown Ottawa. There are over 80 sites across the national capital region with Huawei technology installed. Some of these sites are very near sensitive government institutions, like government departments, the National Research Council, RCMP headquarters and the Bank of Canada. How long has the Prime Minister known that Huawei technology has been installed in the Ottawa area?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, first off, on the issue of Parliament, it has been meeting four times a week over the past many weeks, and members of the opposition have been able to continue to ask questions on COVID-19 and a broad range of subjects. Moreover, every two weeks the finance department puts forward at the finance committee the full transparent measures that we've taken, so that parliamentarians can study them. We are continuing to work in this crisis. At the same time
Mr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC): Answer the question. The Chair: I'm sorry?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: in regard to Huawei technology there are strict rules for companies to follow and we assume they will all follow those.
The Chair: We'll pause for a second and stop the clock. I want to remind the honourable members who are joining us virtually that heckling really does disrupt the whole session. Your face does come up and we do see who it is, so I just want to make sure that you're aware of that. Now we'll go back to Mr. Scheer. We have a minute and 10 seconds left.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister is bragging about accountability and transparency. Will he table an economic update before the House rises?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, throughout this unprecedented pandemic, we have been open and transparent about all of the measures we've put forward. We've updated the finance committee
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Scheer.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: That's a long way of saying no, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister has pursued a policy of appeasement in pursuit of a personal vanity product at the UN. In the process, he's cozied up to dictators and human rights violators. He's abandoned Israel and committed funding to UNRWA, an organization whose schools have been used as storage facilities for Hamas rockets against Israeli civilians, and whose facilities have served as breeding grounds for racism and anti-Semitism. He has apologized for the Iranian regime when it shot down a plane full of Canadian citizens, and he refuses to list the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps as a terrorist entity. What's the point of having a seat at the table if you have to sell out Canadian principles to get there?
The Chair: The Right Honourable Prime Minister.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, we see that the Conservatives have kept with the Harper approach to international diplomacy. The failed presence of Canada on the world stage was an embarrassment for many Canadians for many years. That's why, when we took office five years ago, we demonstrated the kind of leadership on values that Canadians expected. We will continue to work around the world to defend multilateralism.
The Chair: We have a point of order. Ms. May.
Ms. Elizabeth May: This being a committee, we can have a point of order during what would have been question period. I am not sitting that far away from the Prime Minister, and I'm sorry, but Andrew Scheer used to be the Speaker of the House and should show better decorum.
The Chair: We have a point of order from Mr. Genuis.
Mr. Garnett Genuis: Mr. Chair, on the same point of order, it is disgusting for the leader of the Green Party to use decorum as an excuse to interrupt the Leader of the Opposition in the middle of critical lines of questioning. The leader of the Green Party knows the rules of the House and shouldn't be abusing them to advance a partisan agenda.
The Chair: We're getting into debate. I do want to point out that the time had run out. We're now moving on to the next line of questions. On a point of order, Mr. Scheer.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: I appreciate the honourable leader of the Green Party, Elizabeth May, for that reminder. When I was Speaker I always appreciated her help and advice about how to improve decorum in here. I just want to say to the member, and to all members, that the reason that I cannot control myself is that the Prime Minister used the word embarrassment in answering a foreign affairs question, and it just made me think of the India trip.
The Chair: I believe we're getting into debate and arguments. Mr.Blanchet, you have the floor.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Mr.Chair, while the Greens and the Conservatives are saying that they'll be waiting outside after the meeting, I will ask a question. The Prime Minister has extended the Canada emergency response benefit, and that's good news, but it's not enough. Last week in the House, the government said it was urgent to fight fraud. For us, it was also urgent to adjust the CERB to the needs of the tourism, arts and agriculture sectors. Farmers are going to be seriously under-resourced. So what happened to the urgency of reforming the CERB? Why is the government refusing to talk to the opposition parties?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, I am very pleased to hear the hon. member finally align himself with the positions of the Liberal Party. Unfortunately, the Bloc is a week late. It should have let us debate these concerns in the House last week.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: It seems to me that the word alignment here is a fantasy. We have unequivocally proposed to extend the debate to reach an agreement, which brings me to my second question. Last week, the issue of assistance to people with disabilities was also a pressing concern, and it's even more so a week later. The Bloc proposed to extend the discussions and split the government's bill in two to help people with disabilities. Why is the government refusing this assistance to people with disabilities, when it could have been debated with the opposition in a civilized and proper way in a Parliament in which it has a minority?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: That was exactly what we wanted, but unanimous consent of the Chamber was required to debate this matter, and the Conservative Party of Canada voted against it. Unfortunately, we are going to have to find a different way to help people with disabilities.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: If the idea is so good and wonderful, why not start over and open the dialogue now? What's stopping the Prime Minister from being a rallying point and inviting us to take to each other and resolve the problem, rather than saying that he is going to pack up his toys and go home? The people with disabilities are the ones who will pay the price. Where was the Prime Minister on October21,2019? He received a minority mandate from Quebeckers and Canadians. Why is he behaving like something between a prime minister with a majority and a monarch by divine right?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: I've heard the Conservative Party and the Bloc Qubcois throw their accusations around. They don't point out that the House of Commons did indeed give its consent to extend the mandate of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic until the end of June. Three parties agreed, which was the right thing to do in the context of this minority government. We've been working with the other parties. However, as they did not get the results they wanted, they complained. Unfortunately, they too are part of a minority Parliament and must respect the voice of the majority of parliamentarians, just as we do.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: I might have been tempted, but that's unlikely to happen because the Prime Minister isn't me, he's him. It's therefore up to him to bring people together, open a dialogue and recall Parliament. All we were asking for was the opportunity to talk for an hour or two. However, suddenly he doesn't want to play anymore. It's not working anymore, and there's something a bit strange about that. In addition, the government wants to buy the right to interfere in provincial and Quebec jurisdictions for $14billion. However, Quebec and a number of provinces are refusing to allow it to interfere in their jurisdictions and are asking that this money be paid to them unconditionally. Is the Prime Minister trying to take advantage of the crisis or is he trying to create a constitutional crisis?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, the safety of Canadians is the responsibility of all levels of government. That's why we have proposed a $14billion agreement to ensure that all Canadians across the country experience a safe re-opening of the economy. This is a proposal that we are working on with the provinces because we know that there are needs across the country, including early childhood centres, screening and support for municipalities. The federal government wants to be there to help the provinces.
The Chair: We'll now go to Mr.Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Indigenous leaders have expressed a lack of confidence in the RCMP commissioner's ability to tackle full-scale systemic racism, but the Prime Minister has expressed his confidence in the commissioner. What's that based on?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, over the past two years, Commissioner Lucki has made significant strides forward on an issue where there is still much more to do. We know that systemic racism exists in all of our institutions across this country
The Chair: We'll now go back to Mr. Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: This is the same RCMP commissioner who just recently said that they couldn't explain what systemic racism was. Now the Prime Minister says that he has confidence, when indigenous leaders express their lack of confidence. Why does the Prime Minister believe that the RCMP commissioner can tackle systemic racism in the RCMP?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, systemic racism is something that touches every corner of our country, every corner of our institutions. It requires people to understand and move forward in coordinated ways with partners. The commissioner is committed to doing that, alongside members of our government. We will do that together and work with indigenous communities and black
The Chair: Mr. Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, recent events have made it abundantly clear that to tackle the systemic racism at the level of the RCMP, we need a full-scale overhaul of the RCMP. Is the Prime Minister committed to a full-scale overhaul of the RCMP to root out systemic racism?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: As I've said many times, Mr. Chair, I am committed to addressing systemic racism in this country and taking significant, bold actions to reduce the amount of discrimination that indigenous peoples, that racialized Canadians face on a daily basis. We have much work to do, but we will do it together.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, Black Lives Matter has been calling for governments to defund the police. What it's saying is that we need to be better at where we spend our money, investing in communities and not policing. Will the Prime Minister commit to a review of the RCMP budget to allocate resources to community services and not to policing?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, over the past years we have been investing more directly and more money in community organizations, in the black community, and working with indigenous partners on the path to reconciliation. We have been investing in the kinds of community-based programs and solutions that are part of the solution. We know there is much more to do, and we will continue to look at all of our expenditures to make sure we're doing the right things.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, over the past few years, while the Prime Minister has been in office, the RCMP budget has increased by 31%. More money is going towards policing. In recent events we've seen people who needed a health care response to a health care crisis been killed by the RCMP. Does the Prime Minister believe that we need to be investing in a health care response instead of a police response for people who are faced with a crisis?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, the member opposite well knows that it's not an either-or. We need to make sure that our systems across the board, from our police systems to our judicial systems, to our health care systems, to our community systems, are actually addressing the systemic discrimination issues that are embedded within them That is exactly what we are going to continue to do in the coming years.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, with regard to the CERB extension, can the Prime Minister guarantee that everyone who is receiving CERB payments now will continue to do so without any gaps throughout the summer?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, I am happy to highlight that many Canadians who were on the CERB are now returning to work. Many more who are on the CERB now will be returning to work in the coming weeks. We know that as the economy gets back to work, people will want to
The Chair: We will go back to Mr. Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Can the Prime Minister assure people who need it that they will continue to receive the CERB over the summer, yes or no?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: We are very pleased to point out that we are going to extend the Canada emergency response benefit for at least another eight weeks, because a lot of people are going to need it. Even if they want to work, there aren't enough jobs for everyone. So we'll be there for them, as we have been from the beginning.
The Chair: We're going to pause and suspend proceedings just for a few moments to allow our support staff to substitute for one another in a healthy and safe way. We'll now proceed with Ms. McLeod.
Mrs. Cathy McLeod (KamloopsThompsonCariboo, CPC): Mr. Chair, it was really a surprise in the middle of a pandemic to see the Prime Minister at his first campaign stop last week in Ottawa. Certainly the game plan has become very transparent. He has a daily report show and he wants to sideline Parliament, dominate the news cycle and keep everyone in the dark about the state of the economy. According to the Parliamentary Budget Officer, there is no reason that he cannot provide the fiscal update during the COVID-19 pandemic, and the PBO has published a number of reports himself. Why won't the Prime Minister provide a fiscal update so we can all understand the state of our economy, or is that just not part of his campaign playbook?
Hon. Mona Fortier (Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Canada's economy is in a period of extraordinary uncertainty due to COVID-19. We've been clear about that. We will continue to be open and transparent about the actions that we are taking to support families, businesses, workers, our health care system and our economy. This includes biweekly reports to Parliament on the full cost and status of our economic measures. Once it is possible to provide a clear economic projection, we will provide an update. We are in this together, and we are prepared to do whatever is necessary to support Canadians.
Mrs. Cathy McLeod: Chair, Canada's economy was in trouble prior to the COVID, with some of the worst numbers since 2009. Government revenues in March dropped by 7.2%, and it's shameful and, quite frankly, it's outrageous that they refuse to provide Parliament and Canadians with an economic update. Households during this challenging time know how much money is coming in and they know how much money is going out. The picture is not pretty, but they know what the picture is. Can the finance minister at least reveal the projected revenue decline in quarters one and two?
Hon. Mona Fortier: The Canadian economy is going through a period of extraordinary uncertainty due to COVID-19. We've known this for three months. We've continued to be open and transparent about the measures we've put in place for Canadians, workers and businesses. In fact, we have reported biweekly to Parliament on the total cost and status of our plan's measures. As soon as it's possible to provide clear economic projections, we will provide a comprehensive update to Canadians
The Chair: We go back to Ms. McLeod.
Mrs. Cathy McLeod: Other governments have managed to provide updates for their citizens and carry out their responsibilities, but of course this government has sidelined Parliament with simply a question-but-no-answer period. Let's try something else. The forestry industry was in crisis even before the pandemic, with mills closing down and thousands of jobs lost. Eight weeks ago, Minister Freeland said, I have had many discussions with leaders in our forestry sector and the provinces about what we can do to support the industry today. Meanwhile, we've had support going to the arts and we've had support going to fisheries, just to name a few, but arguably for the industry that was having some of the most numerous challenges, it has been radio silence. That was eight weeks ago today. Can the government at least commit to releasing an updated softwood lumber transition plan before we rise?
Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Chair, we remain committed, of course, to the forestry industry and seeing it through this pandemic and this very uncertain time. The expanding market opportunities program, for instance, has helped Canada's forestry sector diversify, create jobs and open new markets. We've had new construction projects that are active today, using Canadian wood in key markets like Korea, Japan, China and the United States. Tomorrow this House will vote on our government's investment of $20.97 million for this program. It's part of our budget 2019 commitment to invest $251 million over three years, and I hope the opposition will support us in that.
Mrs. Cathy McLeod: It was stated in a major newspaper this morning that this government is like a sexy sports carvroom, vroom, vroombut with a history of breakdowns and major repairs. I think that might describe what has been happening. For forestry, it has been eight weeks and there has been nothing. There is another area that Deputy Prime Minister Freeland did talk about. We were talking about the U.S. softwood lumber duties that are being held in the United States. It's billions of dollars being held with the U.S. treasury. In April, she acknowledged that these duties are a real issue for the softwood lumber industry. What's been done since that time?
Hon. David Lametti (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada): Mr. Chair, Canada's forestry industry supports good middle-class jobs in communities across our country. The sector is also an essential link in the medical equipment supply chain, and we thank them for all the work they're doing. We're aware of the immense pressures faced by this sector, especially at this time, and Deputy Prime Minister Freeland and others are taking that seriously and working through this issue. As our government has said repeatedly, we firmly believe that the U.S. duties on Canadian softwood lumber are unfair and unwarranted, and we will pursue all means in order to
The Chair: Before continuing, I want to remind honourable members who are at home to make sure that the boom on their headsets is down. It just makes a better pickup. We heard everything, but it was a little distant. That's for everyone's benefit. We're now going to continue with Mr.Deltell.
Mr. Grard Deltell (Louis-Saint-Laurent, CPC): Mr.Chair, before I ask my question, I'd like to pay tribute to the Minister of Justice, particularly to his versatility. Today, he talked about forests. Yesterday, the Minister of Justice talked about Davie and indigenous affairs. Really, this minister is very versatile. My question is directly for the Minister of Finance. I like Mr.Lametti very much, but I'd like Mr.Morneau to answer my question. Yesterday, in a Senate parliamentary committee, the Minister of Finance half-opened the door to an economic update. Based on what he said, it seems that, as we speak, a committee of the Department of Finance is working on an economic update. Could Mr.Morneau tell Canadians when he is going to table this economic update?
Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr.Chair, as we know, the Canadian economy is going through a period of extraordinary uncertainty. As soon as it's possible to provide clear economic projections, we will provide a full update to Canadians. Right now, we can say that we have supported workers, businesses and Canadians with the emergency measures we have put in place. We will continue to do so, because we need to be sure that Canadians can get through this crisis.
Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr.Chair, I thought it was too good to be true. The Minister of Finance is opening the door, and the Minister of Small Business is closing it. We don't know when the economic update will take place, yet all across Canada, provinces are doing economic updates. Could Mr.Morneau explain to Canadians why he is unable to give one?
Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr.Chair, since the beginning of the crisis, we have implemented the economic action plan to respond to COVID-19, and we've provided immediate assistance to Canadians, businesses and workers. Over 2.5million jobs were protected by the Canada emergency wage subsidy. In addition, 8.4million Canadians
The Chair: We are returning to Mr.Deltell.
Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr.Chair, next Friday, the Quebec minister of finance, EricGirard, will give an economic update. If EricGirard can give one for Quebec, why can't BillMorneau give one for Canada?
Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr.Chair, once again, we have been open and transparent from the outset. We have devoted our energy to support Canadians, workers and businesses. We will continue to do so.
Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr.Chair, I cannot judge the quality of the work done by the provinces, but what I do know is that Quebec, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland have also made efforts to support their residents economically. Those provinces are able to table economic updates. Yesterday, Saskatchewan even tabled a budget. Why is Bill Morneau unable to table an economic update for all Canadians?
Hon. Mona Fortier: Let me repeat for my hon. colleague that we are going through extraordinarily uncertain times. We have continued to be open and transparent. We have reported biweekly to Parliament on the total cost and status of the measures in our economic response plan. Once again, as soon as clear economic projections can be provided, we will provide an update
The Chair: Mr.Deltell has the floor.
Mr. Grard Deltell: The minister talks about the total cost of the government's economic expenditures. So I ask the question: so far, over the past three months, how much has the pandemic cost Canadians?
Hon. Mona Fortier: As I said earlier, it is important to note that we have put forward measures, including the wage subsidy, which have helped more than 2.5million
The Chair: Mr.Deltell has the floor.
Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr.Chair, I have been trying for four minutes to get anything remotely resembling an answer, and I'm getting absolutely nothing. I am not asking questions for myself; I am asking questions for Canadians. Why are the government and the Minister of Finance, Bill Morneau, not able to table an economic update when some provinces are able to?
Hon. Mona Fortier: Once again, I would like to remind my hon. colleague that we have provided interest-free loans to businesses. More than 669,000loans have been approved. We have continued to support businesses and Canadians during this time
The Chair: Mr.Deltell, you have time for a very brief question.
Mr. Grard Deltell: The only thing that distinguishes the provinces that table economic updates and the current government is political will. Why does Bill Morneau not have the political will to tell Canadians the truth?
Hon. Mona Fortier: Once again, we have been open and transparent. As soon as it is possible to provide clear economic projections, we will provide Canadians with a full update.
The Chair: We will now continue with Mr. Saroya.
Mr. Bob Saroya (MarkhamUnionville, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. COVID-19 has sparked and spurred anti-Asian racism. These are not just racist comments online; Asian Canadians have been attacked. What is the government doing to combat anti-Asian racism?
Hon. Bardish Chagger (Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth): Mr. Chair, since our government took office in 2015, we have been making investments and working with communities. The difference between our government and the previous government is that we will actually consult with Canadians, including black Canadians, including Asian Canadians, to respond to the challenges, including with an anti-racism secretariat and an anti-racism strategy. It will take all of us. I appreciate the member's question, so that we can also work together.
Mr. Bob Saroya: Mr. Chair, one business owner I know in Markham has operated for 20 years. Now she's looking at over $9,000 in rent due on June 24. COVID-19 has crippled her sales and she's going to go out of business. Her landlord has no interest in the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance program. How can the government say this program is working?
Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr. Chair, this program was made possible by working with the provinces, and we will continue to encourage landlords and tenants to work together to make sure they have relief for this very difficult time in which they're living. We're continuing to monitor the CECRA program and we will make it possible for businesses to have access to the program.
Mr. Bob Saroya: Mr. Chair, the government business rent relief program has been a total disaster. Even the government's own numbers show it is a failure. As of June 8, less than 2% of the $3 billion budgeted has been spent. What is it going to take for the government to admit that the program is a disaster and needs changes?
Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr. Chair, we know our government has been working closely with the provinces and territories to deliver the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance. Although the tenant-landlord relationship is ultimately the responsibility of the provinces and territories, our government has stepped up to provide support through the tools we have and through CMHC so that small businesses can get the rent relief they need.
Mr. Bob Saroya: Mr. Chair, according to the government, there are around 1.1 million small businesses in Canada. At committee, we were told only around 5,500 of them are receiving COVID-19 rent relief. That number is shameful. When will the Liberal government wake up and make the changes?
Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr. Chair, we welcome the steps some provinces and territories have taken to further protect commercial tenants. We will continue to monitor this program closely and ensure that Canada's small businesses are supported during this challenging time. We will continue to monitor to see
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Saroya.
Mr. Bob Saroya: Mr. Chair, there was no answer. When can the government make these changes?
Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade): Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable colleague that we are doing everything and will continue to do everything to help small businesses in our country.
Mr. Bob Saroya: Mr. Chair, on May 27 the CBSA seized 65 small handguns at Pearson airport, the largest firearms seizure on record. It is clear that smuggled handguns are the weapon of choice for criminals. Why is the Prime Minister focusing on an ineffective municipal ban?
Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness): Mr. Chair, I would point out that gun violence in any of our communities is unacceptable, and it's important that governments and communities take steps to prevent guns from getting into the hands of criminals. That's why we do important work at our border to keep guns from being smuggled into our country, but it also necessitates additional work. I don't think you can talk about gun violence without talking about stronger gun control. That's why our government has taken a very strong position and will strengthen gun control to keep Canadians safe.
The Chair: Mr. Saroya, you may have a 10-second question, if that's possible, please.
Mr. Bob Saroya: Mr. Chair, COVID-19 has not stopped gun violence in the GTA. My constituents are concerned about shootings minutes away from their homes. We know the Liberals' gun ban won't change anything, but a focus on smuggled guns and criminals will. When will they make that change?
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, stronger gun control laws are an effective tool, and that's been told to us by police leadership and communities across the country. We're also making investments in borders and law enforcement. Most importantly, we're making investments in communities and in kids to keep communities safe. I look forward to the member's strong support of those measures when we bring them forward.
The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Hoback.
Mr. Randy Hoback (Prince Albert, CPC): Mr. Chair, the U.S. and the U.K. began their second round of free trade negotiations yesterday. Does the government intend to have a trade agreement in place before the U.K. tariffs come into effect on January 1?
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, the U.K. is a strong partner of Canada, as is the European Union, and we're looking forward to continuing that strong relationship
The Chair: We'll now go back to Mr. Hoback.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Thank you, Mr. Chair. With respect to the negotiations with the U.K., when will the minister publish her goals and objectives for this agreement?
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, we're going to continue to work to ensure that any future agreement is going to be based on the best interests of Canadians, and we will
The Chair: We will go back to Mr. Hoback.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Can the minister confirm whether they've entered into negotiations with the U.K. at this point?
Hon. Mary Ng: Our government is analyzing the most-favoured-nation tariff regimes schedule the U.K. has put out. I want to assure Canadians
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Hoback.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr. Chair, during the CUSMA negotiations, a deal was struck between the Liberal Party and the NDP that the government would notify this House 90 days before it starts any negotiations on any trade agreement. When will the minister notify this House?
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that we will absolutely be sharing information. Right now, we are analyzing the most-favoured-nation tariff regimes schedule put out by the U.K.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr. Chair, any meaningful attempts to reform the WTO needs buy-in from the United States. I think all countries agree on that. Has the minister discussed a WTO reform with the USTR, the United States trade representative?
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, the Ottawa Group is a consensus-based group, and any decisions will be taken together. Of course, any meaningful reform must include the U.S.
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Hoback.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Has the U.S. been invited to the Ottawa Group meetings?
Hon. Mary Ng: The Ottawa Group is a consensus-based group limited to WTO members who are committed to bringing forward ideas and proposals
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Hoback.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Just as with any other trade agreement, the minister has committed to this House that she will publish the list of goals and responsibilities for the negotiations. When will she publish the list for the Ottawa Group?
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, I'm thrilled that we had an excellent meeting of the Ottawa Group yesterday where, as a group, we agreed to take concrete action.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Will the minister be releasing a list of Canada's objectives we would like to see the new WTO's director-general pursue prior to the upcoming DG election?
Hon. Mary Ng: We published an action statement from the Ottawa Group yesterday. I would encourage the member opposite to have a look. I'm certainly happy to send it to him.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Going back to economic prosperity, we know that the U.S. has been having talks with other countries around the world. Has Canada yet been invited to this group?
Hon. Mary Ng: I'm pleased to continue to pursue the objectives of trade diversification. I would remind the member that we have access to a billion and a half customers through our very robust
Mr. Randy Hoback: A billion and a half customers is fine if you have a functioning WTO, but if you don't have a functioning WTO, then a billion and a half customers may not be fully accessible to our suppliers, manufacturers and agriculture producers. Can the minister confirm that she's in discussions with the U.S. in joining this economic prosperity group?
Hon. Mary Ng: Mr. Chair, I want to assure the honourable member that nothing is more important than standing up and helping create markets for our Canadian businesses and to help our small businesses get more export-ready so that they can grow into the international marketplace. This is work that we've committed to do, and we will keep working on it, particularly
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Hoback.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Yesterday Saskatchewan presented a budget. Not only did they present the budget, but they'll also actually debate the budget and pass the budget in Parliament. There's full accountability. Why won't this government do the same?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): Mr. Chair, the House is sitting in this hybrid format so that people can participate in the House on the screens. I'm sure my colleague is happy to see that his own colleagues are able to ask questions and participate.
The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Williamson.
Mr. John Williamson (New Brunswick Southwest, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will say that this is no substitute for Parliament, but I appreciate the opportunity. New Brunswick families and businesses are rapidly making adjustments to manage and live with the coronavirus pandemic. Businesses here are opening and services are being offered. Families are preparing for summer and even planning ahead for a new school year in September. We have a lot of work ahead of us. One notable absence is Service Canada. When does the government plan on opening its service counters to assist Canadians again?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development): Mr. Chair, our government is committed to ensuring that Canadians continue to have access to the benefits that they rely on through Service Canada. We have redeployed over 3,000 additional staff to ensure that Canadians continue to have access to their benefits. We've established a 1,500-agent call centre to make sure that people can get access to the phone lines to get the help they need.
Mr. John Williamson: Service Canada is about more than providing COVID-19 information and benefits. Provincial governments are working hard to adjust to Canada's new normal by opening up businesses and front-line government services. When will we see Service Canada play its role and open its service counters in our communities?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr. Chair, we're currently working with our world-class public health experts to determine how best to reopen the Service Canada network for the public. Make no mistake: Our Service Canada employees have gone above and beyond to ensure that Canadians continue to have access to the services that they rely on and the benefits that they need.
Mr. John Williamson: Please don't hide behind health experts when the Prime Minister is appearing in the middle of large protests, yet is afraid to bring back the Parliament of Canada to do its business. In fact, the New Brunswick legislature is open for regular business. Bills are being studied, opposition input is being heard and MLAs are voting on legislation, not rubber-stamping government bills. By comparison, our Parliament is stuck in pretending it cannot function like other law-making assemblies. Canadians are in the dark about our country's finances. When will the government table an economic update so taxpayers understand what was spent, what is owed by our kids and grandchildren, and what the government's fiscal footing looks like?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Mr. Chair, nobody's hiding. Nobody's doing anything like that. The only reason my colleague is able to ask a question and I'm able to answer his question is that he's right there on the screen. We have this hybrid format that cares for MPs across the country, not only the ones sitting in the House.
Mr. John Williamson: This is no substitute for Parliament. I will ask my question again. When will the government table an economic update so that taxpayers understand what was spent, what is owed by our kids and grandchildren, and what the government's fiscal footing looks like in today's environment?
Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr. Chair, I thank my honourable colleague for his question. Canada's economy is still in a period of extraordinary uncertainty due to COVID-19. We have been open and transparent about the measures we have been providing to support families, businesses and workers. Even our health care
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Williamson.
Mr. John Williamson: Except you have not. The Auditor General is underfunded. We have no idea about the total of government spending. Again I will ask when the government will table an economic update so that we can have an understanding of what the government's fiscal footing looks like.
Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr. Chair, we have included biweekly reports to Parliament on the full cost and status of our economic response plan measures since the beginning. I have said, and I will continue to say, that when it is possible to provide a clear economic projection, we will provide an update.
Mr. John Williamson: What is the full cost to date of the government's COVID-19 relief measures, as the minister just claimed the government has provided to Parliament?
Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr. Chair, we have provided support for workers, and 2.5 million Canadians have been helped through the Canadian wage subsidy. We have provided businesses with some loans, and 669,000 businesses have applied for these loans. Even for the CERB, we have over eight million Canadians who have applied.
The Chair: We will now continue with Mr.Bergeron.
Mr. Stphane Bergeron: Mr.Chair, as the leader of the Bloc Qubcois mentioned a few moments ago, the government promised $14billion to Quebec and the provinces, but in targeted transfers. That is very little compared to the considerable expenses incurred to deal with the current crisis. But Quebec and the provinces don't just want this money to be transferred unconditionally, they also want a real discussion on a permanent increase in health care transfers. PremierLegault was rightly concerned about the feds' interference into provincial jurisdictions. The federal government, which does not manage any hospitals or long-term care centres, must stop playing armchair quarterback and transfer the money to the only governments with jurisdiction over health, that is, Quebec and the provinces. Will it do so without delay and without nitpicking?
The Honourable Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health): Mr.Chair, we know that the Government of Quebec is working hard to ensure the safety of Quebeckers and we are here to support them. As part of this co-operation, we have developed health and safety recommendations for workplaces, we have purchased medical equipment for workers and we have supported the province in developing its reopening program. We are continuing this important partnership to ensure the safety of Quebeckers and all Canadians.
Mr. Stphane Bergeron: The co-operation is so effective that the money is staying in the federal government's coffers. In fact, when the federal government wants to impose conditions, it always takes longer. We see it with housing, for which Quebec has not received a dime of the $1.4billion it is owed. We have also seen it with infrastructure funds, particularly for public transit, water systems and water treatment. The health crisis is now. The needs are now. The much needed reopening of our economy is now. Will the government finally transfer the money without messing around or quibbling?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: I am pleased to confirm to my colleague that there is no messing around, no quibbling, nothing of the kind. There is co-operation between two levels of government. It is natural to have discussions with all the provinces and with Quebec. I myself am taking part in some discussions and several of my colleagues are taking part in others. There is a clear willingness on the part of the federal government to co-operate with Quebec and all the provinces. That is what we are doing and that is perhaps what the Bloc Qubcois does not like. It likes bickering, but for the time being, there is none.
Mr. Stphane Bergeron: We don't want to bicker, we want the money to be paid out. It is not complicated, for heaven's sake! We do not want a blank cheque. Right now, the money remains in the federal government's coffers. There is $1.4billion that should be paid to Quebec for social housing and is sitting in the federal government's coffers. We are waiting for money for water treatment and water systems, but it is sitting in the federal government's coffers. It's almost July. We are wasting precious months for construction. What is the government waiting for to pay out the money so that we can get our economy rolling?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: The federal government is a very active partner. We are discussing and working with Quebec on infrastructure projects. We are continuing our discussions and negotiations on the housing agreement. Nothing is at a standstill. We are discussing and co-operating for the well-being of all Quebeckers.
Mr. Stphane Bergeron: MadamChair, things are definitely at a standstill, because the money is owed and has not been paid out. Months are going by while construction is not taking place. We need to reopen the economy. We need more flexibility in the gas tax program and Quebec's contribution to allow municipalities to undertake work on city halls, community centres and fire stations. We need the federal government to contribute to funding public transit operations, which have become a real financial drain because of the drop in ridership. What is the federal government waiting for to provide real help instead of just talking?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: When it comes to just talking, the Bloc Qubcois has a lot of experience, I admit. We, in the government, are working and co-operating. We are not waiting with our arms folded, we are discussing a series of issues with Quebec. We do more than discuss, we work and we co-operate. We are working on projects, not only in infrastructure, but in a number of other areas. Just think of the co-operation of our armed forces in the CHSLDs, for example. We are here for Quebeckers.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Your time has run out, Mr.Bergeron. We'll go now to Ms. Khalid, from MississaugaErin Mills.
Ms. Iqra Khalid (MississaugaErin Mills, Lib.): Madam Chair, I'll be splitting my time with the member for GlengarryPrescottRussell. During a consultation with the business community in Mississauga, the concerns of businesses, big and small, included the need for stable, affordable and safe child care. With the lack of such child care spaces, an economic recovery plan post-COVID cannot be effective until and unless we make sure that people are able to get back to work. I've heard from parents across Mississauga that they're being forced to stay home because of inadequate child care and that they have to choose between putting food on the table and keeping family safe. More and more employers are realizing that good employees are unable to contribute to their business growth because of this challenge. Now more than ever, we need to find long-term sustainable solutions for Canadians who face challenges with regard to child care. I ask our Minister of Families, Children and Social Development this: What is our strategy to tackle this ever-growing need for a national child care plan?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair, I thank the honourable member for her question and for her important advocacy and work on this important issue. We understand that child care is important to our economic recovery and our social infrastructure. We know the pressure that COVID-19 has placed on families, especially parents. That is why we're committed to continuing to work with provinces and territories to renew our agreements on early learning and child care, and to provide, at the earliest opportunity, $400 million in support. In addition to that, the Prime Minister has already indicated that child care will be part of the $14-billion pledge to provinces and territories to assist them with respect to COVID-19 recovery efforts. Over the next decade, we will continue to invest $7.5 billion, and together we have achieved the goal of over 40,000 affordable child care spaces. We are also committed to continuing to create over 250,000 before-school and after-school child care spaces for kids under the age of 10. We will continue to work with our partners in the provinces and territories to ensure that Canadians can continue to have access to safe, quality and affordable child care.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The honourable member for GlengarryPrescottRussell has the floor.
Mr. Francis Drouin (GlengarryPrescottRussell, Lib.): MadamChair, small businesses play a fundamental role in the Canadian economy. In an article in LaPresse, the Minister of Economic Development warned us that the economic crisis caused by severe lockdown measures could have more serious consequences in small municipalities than in large cities. Based on discussions with the chambers of commerce in my riding, it is clear that federal government assistance will be essential for the reopening of the economy, specifically for the rural economy. In fact, I would like to acknowledge the work of the Prescott-Russell community development corporation , under the leadership of John Candie. After announcing almost $57million to help SMEs adopt e-commerce, how does the minister plan to help SMEs and the business community in our rural areas?
Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages): MadamChair, I also thank my colleague from GlengarryPrescottRussell for his important question. Yes, our regions are important and the entrepreneurs in those regions are creative and daring. They take risks, but they are currently facing huge challenges. So we are here for them. We understand their anxiety and we want to help them. That is why we have decided to invest heavily in rural economic development. It is also why we have doubled the budget of CFDCs and Community Futures organizations across the country. In southern Ontario we have reinvested over $260million in the regional economic development agency FedDev. In the great riding of GlengarryPrescottRussell, which I am particularly fond of and where there is a very good member of Parliament, there is an additional $1million for entrepreneurs in the region. We have been, we are and we will be at your side.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The honourable member for GlengarryPrescottRussell has 36seconds left. No? Then we'll go to the honourable member for ElmwoodTranscona.
Mr. Daniel Blaikie (ElmwoodTranscona, NDP): Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I'll be splitting my time with the member for Victoria. Madam Chair, Krystal is a community worker in Winnipeg. She has been working from home since late March, taking care of her child, who is out of school, and caring for her father, who is living with her and vulnerable to COVID-19. Her employer called her up recently and asked her to physically return to work or to take a leave. As a parent and a care provider to a vulnerable person, she's not comfortable with physically returning to work. Service Canada won't give Krystal a straight answer as to whether going on leave and collecting CERB would count as refusing a reasonable job offer. With Bill C-17 looming in the background, Krystal is worried about jail time and fines if she does right by her child and her father by applying for CERB. Can Krystal reasonably refuse to go back to work and collect CERB, or will she be considered a fraudster? That's my question for the minister that is specific to Krystal's case. As well, what is the minister doing to provide clear direction to Canadians and to Service Canada agents so that people can get a clear answer before making their decision about returning to work?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair, I want to thank the honourable member for his important question. We recognize that Canadian workers will face various different situations, including those who are ineligible for the Canada emergency support benefit. We'll continue to work with workers to make sure they're able to be supported throughout this pandemic. The fact of the matter is that every province has workplace health and safety regulations that must be supported. We understand that workers have the right not to work in unsafe situations. We also understand that many Canadians do want to go back to work; and in fact many have. We will make sure that we support Canadians throughout this recovery process.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The honourable member has 47 seconds left, and that includes the answer.
Mr. Daniel Blaikie: Madam Chair, that answer is really not good enough, because the problem here is that Krystal needs to know whether she can continue receiving CERB or not. That's a federal government decision, and she needs to know whether the federal government is going to accuse her of fraud and put her in jail or assess fines against her if she refuses to go back to work because she wants to take care of her child and her father. What is the minister's answer to that?
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The honourable minister has 20 seconds to respond.
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair, I can assure the honourable member that if a Canadian has to take care of a loved one due to circumstances surrounding the COVID-19 pandemic, they are indeed eligible to receive the CERB and remain receiving that benefit.
Ms. Laurel Collins (Victoria, NDP): As we deal with the global pandemic, we cannot lose sight of the ongoing climate emergency. Canada has missed every single climate target it set, and we need to break the cycle of empty promises. Canadians want their government to be accountable, and environmental groups such as Ecojustice, CAN-Rac, Environmental Defence and West Coast Environmental Law, as well as the government's own climate institute, are all calling for legally binding climate targets. When will the government put its climate targets into law with legally binding milestones so we never miss another target again?
Hon. Navdeep Bains (MississaugaMalton, Lib.): Madam Chair, I thank my honourable colleague for her question. I totally agree with her when it comes to the environment. It is a priority not only for us as a government, but it should be a priority for all Canadians. That is why we have put measures in place to put a price on pollution through carbon pricing. That is why we have a comprehensive plan that also includes significant investments in clean technology, which will help reduce our carbon footprint. I am confident that these measures will enable us to not only meet but exceed our 2030 target and also allow us to achieve our net-zero 2050 target.
Ms. Laurel Collins: That didn't answer my question. I asked when. Empty promises won't get us any closer to meeting our climate targets. Can the minister tell us when his government will introduce climate accountability laws?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Madam Chair, I think the fundamental issue here is having a plan when it comes to the environment. I'm confident that the measures that we have takenputting a price on pollution, investing in clean technology, and other key measures to reduce our carbon footprint, including the investment in infrastructureunderpin a plan
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go back to the honourable member for Victoria.
Ms. Laurel Collins: This government is not meeting its targets, but it is meeting with oil and gas lobbyists. The pandemic has made us reflect on our priorities. Are we going to choose a just recovery with good, sustainable jobs for Canadian workers, or are we going to keep subsidizing oil and gas companies to the tune of billions, subsidies that we know are ending up in the pockets of CEOs and shareholders?
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will have a brief answer from the minister.
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Again, Madam Chair, this is the fundamental difference between us and the NDP. We fundamentally believe that the entire economy needs to work together, including the energy sector, to enable us to achieve those 2030 and 2050 targets. We are going to work together to support our workers, including in the energy sector, to reduce our carbon footprint.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Now we will go to the honourable member for SaskatoonGrasswood, Mr. Waugh.
Mr. Kevin Waugh (SaskatoonGrasswood, CPC): Thank you, Madam Chair. When I was last here in May, I was on my way back to Saskatoon from Toronto, and there was actually someone on my flight who tested positive for COVID-19. I was never informed of it by the airline. I found out two weeks later. The report was in the news media. Why hasn't the government put rules in place requiring airlines to reach out to individuals like me who may have been exposed to COVID on their flights?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Madam Chair, it's hard to speculate on what happened from such a vague description of his experience, but I will say that we have every confidence in local public health, which is doing the hard and heavy lifting of contact tracing and working very closely with all kinds of different sectors, including airline sectors, to make sure that close contacts of people who have tested positive for COVID-19 are found, are traced and are isolated. I assume that the member took appropriate precautions on the flight and I hope that he continues to do so.
Mr. Kevin Waugh: Madam Chair, it was reported that the individual on my plane who had COVID was actually connecting in Toronto from an international flight. The Prime Minister announced last week that they would begin mandating temperature checks for those bound for Canada in July. Will international travellers be tested when they land in Canada, or will they be relying on the tests that take place in other countries?
Hon. Bill Blair: Madam Chair, this is a very important question, because the protection and safety of all Canadiansin particular, Canadian travellersis a high priority for our government. We've been working very closely with the airlines. At the current time, we are putting temperature screening in place. That will initially be done primarily by the airlines that are in the best position to do it at this point in time. We are also now going to be including CATSA, the people who do the security screening, so that when people enter the airport, they will also be screened. We believe that is going to be the most effective measure to keep all travellers safe.
Mr. Kevin Waugh: Madam Chair, last week five of the largest professional sports leagues in North America put out a statement of support for my private member's bill, the safe and regulated sports betting act. Given the struggles that clubs and leagues are facing due to COVID-19, including having no fans at all in the stands for the foreseeable future, the legalization of sports betting would be a welcome opportunity not only to engage fans but to generate much-needed revenue. Will the government commit now to supporting the sports and gaming industries by supporting my private member's bill, Bill C-218?
Hon. Bill Blair: Madam Chair, I've had the opportunity on many occasions to speak to members of Parliament and also to mayors and councillors and people living in border communities where there are casinos. They've raised this issue a number of times. We've listened very carefully to the concerns that have been expressed by them. I would like to advise the member that I look forward to the opportunity for a careful examination of his bill. We are at all times concerned about maintaining the integrity of the gaming industry within our community. That's the best way to protect Canadians. At the same time, we will examine his bill with all of the necessary attention to make sure it's given full consideration.
Mr. Kevin Waugh: Madam Chair, it's the first time in history that we've had the five professional leagues in this country joining together for this bill. Newspapers rely, as we all know, on advertising for a significant portion of their revenue. This includes the usual flyers as well as in-paper ads. I've heard major concerns from a number of newspapers in this country about competition they're receiving today from Canada Post, which is offering massive free postage services. In fact, I have one of their ads here, which says that the first 6,000 pieces of postage are 100% free. If the government is genuine about wanting to ensure that newspapers and journals can succeed in this country, why are you allowing Canada Post to use its monopoly power to actually threaten local newspapers in this country?
Hon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage): Thank you, Madame Chair, and I thank the member opposite for his question. As you well know, a healthy news and media sector in Canada is a priority for our government, which is why we have put in place a number of measures before COVID-19 and during COVID-19, and we will continue to be there for them after this crisis has gone by.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Before we go on, we will be taking a break to do a bit of a changeover. I also want to remind members to address their questions and comments to the chair. We will go now to the honourable member for BruceGreyOwen Sound, Mr. Ruff.
Mr. Alex Ruff (BruceGreyOwen Sound, CPC): Thank you, Chair. Mr. Blair stated yesterday here in the House that the AR-15 has been used in mass killings in Canada on many occasions. Mr. Blair, please provide just one specific instance in which an AR-15 was used in a mass killing in Canada.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): I remind the member to address questions and comments to the chair. The honourable minister may respond.
Hon. Bill Blair: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I think this is an excellent opportunity to point out to the member opposite how important it is to actually listen to what was said. If you go back and review that tape, and I would invite you to do so, you'll see that I said the AR-15 and other weapons like themreferring of course to military-style assault weaponshave been used in mass killings, and I actually cited a number of examples. Madam Chair, I think it would be very useful if the member's questions were based on facts.
Mr. Alex Ruff: I can remind Mr. Blair that I actually have watched the video a couple of times, and he specifically states that the AR-15 was used in mass killings in Canada, yet he has yet to provide one. My additional question is to Mr. Blair. Out of the recently banned firearms on May 1, how many have been or are still currently in use by the Canadian Armed Forces?
Hon. Bill Blair: That's an excellent question, Madam Chair, because it's very important to provide Canadians with clarity. We have prohibited these firearms for non-law enforcement and non-military use. The military uses weapons that were actually designed for soldiers to use in combat to shoot other soldiers. That's the appropriate use of such weapons, Madam Chair. They're not things to be played with in civilian society.
Mr. Alex Ruff: As a soldier for 25 years, I'll remind Mr. Blair that none of the currently prohibited firearms would be used in the Canadian Armed Forces. I asked him a question on whether any of them is being or ever has been used in the Canadian Armed Forces. Are any of the recently banned firearms still in use, or have they ever been in use, in any military in the world?
Hon. Bill Blair: Madam Chair, I think it's important to also recognize that the basic origin, the provenance of the weapons that we have prohibited, was in their original design. They were designed for military use for various military forces around the world. As I've said previously, they were designed for soldiers to use in combat to kill other soldiers. They're very efficient in their design for killing people. They have no purpose in Canadian society.
Mr. Alex Ruff: As someone who has used many military-style firearms and who is actually involved in helping define what we purchase in the military, I would use none of the ones that are currently prohibited. I have a question, Chair, for Minister MacAulay. Can he please confirm whether Veterans Affairs has a plan to address the claims backlog, yes or no?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Minister of Veterans Affairs): Madam Chair, I appreciate my honourable colleague's question, and yes, we've indicated that it's a major priority. That's why I'm so pleased that the supplementary estimates contained just under $90 million to address hiring more staff, improving the process and making sure that we attack the backlog in an appropriate manner.
Mr. Alex Ruff: Madame Chair, does that plan exist in written form?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Well, Madam Chair, I can assure you that it's in the supplementary estimates, and of course, this money is
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We'll go back to Mr. Ruff.
Mr. Alex Ruff: The question is about the plan, not how much money has been allocated. I am asking for the written plan on how to address the backlog.
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Madam Chair, I can tell my honourable colleague that the money is in the supplementary estimates, and with the money we're able to attack this problem in an appropriate manner, and that's what is important for our veterans.
Mr. Alex Ruff: The deputy minister committed on March 10 that a written plan would be provided to the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs within a month and made public. Did the deputy minister or the department provide the minister that plan within a month?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Madame Chair, I'm sure my honourable colleague wants an appropriate plan and he would be fully aware this just under $90 million would make a big difference in the plan to attack the backlog. We
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We'll go back to Mr. Ruff.
Mr. Alex Ruff: Thank you, Chair. Therefore, my question is, if the deputy minister in the department provided him with an appropriate plan or a written plan, why is he questioning how appropriate that plan is? I have complete confidence in the deputy minister's ability to produce a written plan.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The honourable minister may give a brief answer, please.
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: I can assure my honourable colleague that with the appropriate funding, we will address the backlog in Veterans Affairs.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go now to the honourable member for Parry SoundMuskoka, Mr. Aitchison.
Mr. Scott Aitchison: Thank you, Madam Chair. My question is about summer camps again. Three weeks ago, I asked this government if the finance minister would meet with the beleaguered summer camp sector. Summer camps, which are a social and economic mainstay in Parry SoundMuskoka and all of northern Ontario, have been crippled by the global pandemic. It's costing millions of jobs, and some camps are actually in danger of folding. Aside from a brief follow-up conversation over the phone with the junior minister, there has still been no action from this government. When will the Minister of Finance meet with summer camps to find a solution?
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair, I recognize the honourable member's important question and his focus on summer camps. We recognize the importance of looking at that and paying attention to the needs of that community. We will continue to engage with them, as we have, to ensure and find ways in which we can get their feedback and find ways in which we can support them. That work is ongoing, and I assure the honourable member that our focus is on the kids and on ensuring that they have access to summer camps for this year.
Mr. Scott Aitchison: I don't know why you need to find ways to get feedback. The summer camps association has given lots of feedback and my office has given lots of feedback, so I don't see what's confusing about this. However, I've become accustomed to not really getting answers to questions, so I will go to the next one. The Ontario government's regional reopening plan permits cruise boats to resume on Georgian Bay, yet the federal government is refusing to allow these vessels to operate until July 1. Therefore, small businesses such as the Island Queen cruiser in Parry Sound, which has only a very few precious weeks to operate in the first place, is losing yet another two weeks because of federal inaction. This not only hurts the cruise boat industry but also hurts tourism and small businesses all through our area. Will the Minister of Transport take a regional approach himself by lifting the federal ban on Georgian Bay, just like the Province of Ontario has done?
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The honourable minister may reply. Is there a response?
Hon. Bill Blair: Madam Chair, there is. I apologize for the confusion. Let me respond, if I may, on behalf of the Minister of Transport. There have been a number of very important discussions with the provinces, in particular with the Province of Ontario, around provisions regarding pleasure craft. There are certain restrictions that will come to an end on June 30. We're working very closely with our provincial counterparts to address this issue, but we want to ensure that it will be done safely.
Mr. Scott Aitchison: Madam Chair, I actually gave the minister a heads-up that I would be asking that question. He sent me an email today saying he was not going to be able to be in the House, and it's great of him to do that. He said that whoever was going to fill in for him would have an answer, but again, that was not really an answer. The next issue I would like to bring this government's attention to is the deplorable state of rural Internet service in Parry SoundMuskoka. Quite simply, there are too many gaps in service, and what is available is generally way too expensive. We have families trying to work and teach their kids from home on unreliable and outrageously expensive Internet service, and we have too many small businesses that either cannot access or afford reliable Internet services. Today Greg Rickford, the Ontario energy minister, and Laurie Scott, Ontario Minister of Infrastructure, announced $2.3 million for seven northern Ontario broadband projects. Minister, will when your government get serious and become a reliable partner for the Government of Ontario and the private sector to deliver this crucial modern-day infrastructure to rural Canadians?
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): I remind the member that he needs to address the questions and comments to the chair. The honourable minister may reply.
Hon. Maryam Monsef (Minister for Women and Gender Equality and Rural Economic Development): Madam Chair, in the best of times, life without access to high-speed Internet is hard. During a pandemic, the challenges are that much more pronounced. Our government's unprecedented investments are already connecting a million more Canadian households to this essential service, but until we achieve universal access our work is not done. We will work with our partners, including provinces across the country, to connect every Canadian household to high-quality Internet access that is affordable and reliable.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The honourable member has 30 seconds.
Mr. Scott Aitchison: I think I can squeeze something in here, then. I'm wondering, then, Madam Chair, since the Province of Ontario has used the Northern Ontario Heritage Corporation Fund to make this announcement, what about using FedNor to make the same kind of announcement, and partner with the province?
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The honourable minister has a brief answer.
Hon. Mlanie Joly: Obviously we believe in the importance of northern Ontario; that's why we nearly doubled the budget of FedNor. We will continue to invest in businesses and people all around Parry Sound, Muskoka and northern Ontario. If my colleague has specific projects in mind, please come and see me and let's have a conversation.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The honourable member for Montmagny-L'Islet-KamouraskaRivire-du-Loup, Mr.Gnreux, has the floor.
Mr. Bernard Gnreux (MontmagnyL'IsletKamouraskaRivire-du-Loup, CPC): Thank you, MadamChair. I will continue along the same lines as my colleague. During this pandemic, we are realizing the extent to which reliable high-speed Internet service is needed for Canada's economy. There are still places where telework is not possible today because of the lack of adequate coverage. However, since2015, the government has committed to addressing the situation through three new programs. Benot Pilotto, who is the mayor of Saint-Onsime-d'Ixworth, in my riding, wrote to me a few days ago. That is why I am asking you what concrete results the government plans to achieve for our rural areas by the end of the year.
Hon. Maryam Monsef: At the best of times, life without high-speed Internet access is difficult. During a pandemic, the difficulties are even greater. Our government's unprecedented investments are already connecting an additional one million Canadian households to this essential service. However, until we achieve universal access, our job is not done. We are working
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Mr.Gnreux, you have the floor.
Mr. Bernard Gnreux: MadamChair, I am simply asking the minister to tell me when the mayor of Saint-Onsime-d'Ixworth will be able to tell his residents when the Internet will be available in his municipality. It is not complicated. What does the government plan to do so that rural municipalities across Canada can have access to the Internet as soon as possible? What is its plan?
Hon. Maryam Monsef: We are working with partners across the country to ensure that every Canadian household is connected to a high-quality, accessible and affordable high-speed Internet service. Madam Chair, I assure my colleagues that we share the same goal, and we will work with all our partners across the country to ensure every Canadian household has access
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Mr.Gnreux, you have the floor.
Mr. Bernard Gnreux: MadamChair, I am still not getting a specific answer. According to the government's plan, when will rural Canadian businesses and households be connected?
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): I would ask the honourable minister to provide a brief answer.
Hon. Maryam Monsef: Madam Chair, those plans are under way, and we will have more to share in the coming days.
Mr. Bernard Gnreux: It seems that the Minister of Rural Economic Development plans to announce a new plan this week. Can she tell us how this program will differ from the Connect to Innovate program, which is already in place? Can the minister tell us whether her program will solve the problem of the 25square kilometre hexagonal zones, which unfortunately make many projects ineligible for the CRTC's broadband fund?
Hon. Maryam Monsef: Madam Chair, I'm pleased to share with my colleague that the model he's referring to, the hexagon model, is no more. Our maps are much more precise now to ensure that we do not leave Canadians behind.
Mr. Bernard Gnreux: MadamChair, this year, the Canada summer jobs program is a real fiasco. I think all my colleagues will agree with me. On May13, 100jobs were announced in my riding; on May20, 16jobs were announced; on May27, 13jobs were announced; on June3, 12jobs were announced; and on June10, only one job was announced. As we speak, an amount of $100,000 is still to be confirmed in my riding. Can we have an announcement, once and for all? Let's stop the piecemeal announcements and finally confirm the remaining jobs today so that our organizations can have young people before the summer starts on the weekend.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go to the honourable minister.
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: MadamChair, I thank the honourable member for his question. We recognize the important role that the Canada summer jobs program is playing in supporting employers and young workers in communities right across the country. Our government is working very hard to help employers adapt to the realities of the COVID-19 pandemic, and at the same time is supporting young Canadians as they begin to look for summer employment. We've introduced flexibilities into the program to ensure that more young workers have opportunities to get employed. The honourable member also has to understand that we're in the COVID-19 pandemic, and as such it will take some time for businesses to equip themselves to hire students.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go to the honourable member for NanaimoLadysmith, Mr. Manly.
Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP): Thank you, Madam Chair. In the first five months of this year, 554 B.C. residents died from opioid overdoses. They were teachers, construction workers, business owners, family members, neighbours and friends. Addiction is a health and social issue, but criminalization creates stigma, so people hide their drug use and die alone. Access to a safe supply of drugs and safe injection sites saves lives and puts addicts in daily contact with people who can help them. Will this government end the war on drugs by decriminalizing them, providing a safe supply and reallocating resources from policing addicts to providing treatment for them?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Madam Chair, I think it's really important we make sure that when we speak about people who use substances, we remove stigmatizing language like the word addict. We can stand together, as this government has, with people who use substances and their families to ensure a range of options for people who are struggling with addiction, who are using substances in a way that is harming their health and their communities. As you know, we have restored harm reduction to the Canadian drugs and substances strategy. We've made it easier for people to access safe supplies of substances. We've increased access to treatment and the variety of treatment through federal transfers to provinces and territories. Madam Chair, we're working with communities to make sure there are more community-based approaches to treating
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go back to Mr. Manly.
Mr. Paul Manly: Madam Chair, the Geneva Convention considers both tear gas and pepper spray to be chemical weapons and prohibits their use in war, yet our police forces use these weapons on Canadian civilians. These weapons are indiscriminate and can affect peaceful protestors and innocent bystanders. Will the government prohibit the use of these weapons and require police to use de-escalation techniques to keep legal protests peaceful?
Hon. Bill Blair: Madam Chair, the right to peaceful protest in this country is a constitutionally protected right. We want to ensure it's always respected. At the same time, Madam Chair, we recognize that the use of even less than lethal force can have significant impacts on people's safety. This is a highly regulated substance in Canada. It's prohibited for non-police use, and for the police it is and should be highly regulated. The RCMP have advised me they have not used tear gas in nine years. We'll continue to monitor it to ensure that peaceful protest is always respected.
Mr. Paul Manly: Madam Chair, in 2012 the RCMP spent $14 million on 18 armoured personnel carriers. One's parked at the Nanaimo detachment. I can't imagine why we have weapons of war like this for policing civilians. Will the government rein in the RCMP budget and end wasteful spending on militarizing our civilian police forces?
Hon. Bill Blair: Madam Chair, it's a very important tradition that our Canadian police are not militarized. At the same time, we've seen a number of tragedies when police have responded to situations in which people were armed with weapons designed for soldiers to kill soldiers, and they've been used to kill police officers. The militarization of our society, so strongly promoted by some, is the direct consequence of the militarization of the police. As we remove these weapons from our society and prohibit them, we'll make it safer for everyone and we can then move away from such a model of policing.
Mr. Paul Manly: Madam Chair, the government spent $4.5 billion to buy an old, leaky pipeline. Since 1961, there have been 82 reported spills from the Trans Mountain pipeline. Over 1.5 million litres of crude oil has spilled into the surrounding environment. This weekend, the Trans Mountain pipeline leaked again, dumping 190,000 litres of oil. How much is this spill going to cost Canadian taxpayers to clean up? How much contingency funding has been budgeted to repair the environmental destruction from spills?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Madam Chair, I want to thank the honourable colleague for his question. He full well knows that the acquisition that we made with regard to the TMX initiative is a reflection of the fact that we want this initiative to move forward in a sustainable manner and in a manner that protects the environment. I'll continue to work with my colleagues to endeavour to make sure that we have the appropriate processes in place to protect the environment and at the same time create good-quality, middle-class jobs for Canadians.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The honourable member for RosemontLa PetitePatrie, Mr.Boulerice, has the floor.
Mr. Alexandre Boulerice (RosemontLa Petite-Patrie, NDP): Thank you, MadamChair. The Black Lives Matter movement is right to discuss systemic racism in our societies. In Montreal, the city and the police department have recognized this, and measures will be put in place. The Liberal government, once again, is all talk and no walk. Although it spends $10million a day, we see no attempt to reform or change the RCMP. If the Prime Minister really wants to act, why is he delaying the action plan in response to the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls?
Hon. Bill Blair: Let me assure this House and the member opposite that we're not dragging our feet. This is an important issue. Indigenous people, black Canadians and other racialized people are far too often experiencing systemic racism and disparate outcomes through the criminal justice system. It's incumbent upon all of us who work within the criminal justice system to take the steps and actions necessary to produce more equitable outcomes. All police services, including the RCMP, must be committed to ensuring that the people they're sworn to serve and protect are always treated with dignity and respect.
Mr. Alexandre Boulerice: MadamChair, why are the Liberals taking indigenous children to court to challenge the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal ruling in their favour?
Hon. Marc Miller (Minister of Indigenous Services): Madam Chair, as the honourable member knows full well, a number of cases are pending, and we are currently negotiating with the parties. We are making progress, and I would be delighted to tell the member and the House about it in response to a later question.
Mr. Alexandre Boulerice: We've been asking questions about it for months, and as I see it, we should keep doing so. The Prime Minister's new pipeline, which taxpayers were forced to buy with their hard-earned money, has leaked. Some 190,000litres of oil spilled, and we can't even make the company pay for it because the Liberals bought the pipeline. Trans-Mountain, KeystoneXL and the resumption of gas exploration and development off the coast of Newfoundland and Labradorare these the projects the Liberals had in mind for their green recovery?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: I'd like to thank the honourable member for his question. Our priority was to protect the health and safety of Canadians throughout the pandemic, especially when it comes to the environment. That's why environmental and climate change laws aimed at protecting the environment, human health and conservation will remain in force.
Mr. Alexandre Boulerice: Across Quebec, the cultural community is going through a harrowing time. Unions, associations, artists and creators have all taken part in public demonstrations recently to condemn the lack of a specific plan for the living arts, performing arts and festival sector. What is the government waiting for?
Hon. Steven Guilbeault: I'd like to thank the member for his question. However, I strongly disagree with him. We haven't waited to develop a plan for the arts and culture sector. We listened to the community and we tailored our supports, as they were announced. We have an emergency plan for the arts and culture sector. We were asked to adapt the CERB to take royalties into account, and we did. We were asked to extend the CERB, and we did. We are fully aware that the recovery will take longer in the arts and culture sector. We have been there, we are there and we will be there for the arts and culture sector.
Mr. Alexandre Boulerice: Well, that wasn't at all what the artists and creators who were out demonstrating in the streets a few days ago thought. They were protesting on the weekend. The CERB extension announced by the government only brings us to September, but the cultural community is expecting the worst in the fall. What is the government's long-term plan to support creators and their entire teams?
Hon. Steven Guilbeault: I'm not so sure those who were protesting last week had issues with our government, but we'd certainly be happy to speak with them. As for a long-term plan, we are currently consulting arts and culture stakeholders to contemplate together how the government can help the sector in response to the ongoing crisis. We are working on finding solutions, but until we have long-term solutions, we have seen to it that our artists and organizations have access to funding until September.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The honourable member for BeauportLimoilou, Mrs.Vignola, has the floor.
Mrs. Julie Vignola (BeauportLimoilou, BQ): Madam Chair, I will be sharing my time with the member for Montcalm. According to the latest news, Seaspan Shipyards will be spending an additional $1.5billion to build two ships. Why? Because the ships were ordered in 2011 and still haven't been delivered. Davie built the Asterix without going over budget because it delivered the ship on time. Davie is currently the top shipyard, representing 50% of Canada's shipbuilding capacity. Why isn't Davie being awarded its fair share of contracts?
Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement): I'd like to thank the member for her question. Davie is certainly a strong and trusted partner that works very hard to help our government get results for Canadians. Building a new class of ships is highly complex, and it's not unusual for cost estimates to change throughout the procurement project. It's important to make sure additional funding is available for the joint support ships project to ensure the navy's vessels are delivered.
Mrs. Julie Vignola: We are talking about $1.5billion, here. In the beginning, eight years ago, the project was supposed to cost $2.6billion. There can't be much missing when the cost overrun is double the initial estimate. Why haven't the ships been delivered yet? Why is Davie still not seen as a trusted partner?
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Minister, please keep your answer brief.
Hon. Anita Anand: Once again, I would point out that building a new class of ships is highly complex, and it's not unusual for the cost estimate to change for a procurement project as large as this one. I know that Davie works very hard, and we also believe it is an outstanding partner.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): It is now over to the honourable member for Montcalm, Mr.Thriault.
Mr. Luc Thriault (Montcalm, BQ): Madam Chair, in Quebec, 12,000people have begun their training to work in residential and long-term care centres. They will be ready for duty in mid-September. In the meantime, we need the support of the army, which is helping us save lives. The dedication of the members of the armed forces is paramount, and I want to extend my heartfelt thanks. The government extended their mission until June26, which is only 10days away. What does the army have to do right now that is more important than helping our caregivers save lives?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Madam Chair, I'm glad my fellow member recognizes the fundamental role the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces have played and continue to play in residential and long-term care centres and many other areas in support of our seniors. We are in talks with the Quebec government. The discussions around providing continued assistance to Quebec are quite positive and productive. That assistance can take many forms, including the Red Cross. We will be there for our seniors, Madam Chair.
Mr. Luc Thriault: We are short 12,000people, so if the Red Cross wants to help us, all the better. We'll take all the help we can get. Barely 800members of the military are still in Quebec. I repeat my question: What does the army have to do 10days from now that is more important if it's not to help caregivers save lives?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Madam Chair, all the members of the military are still in Quebec. They have done absolutely incredible work and are continuing to do so. The people at the Canadian Red Cross are well-trained paid workers who can perform the same work in partnership with the members of the armed forces, who can stay in Quebec as well. Right now, we are working with the Quebec government and discussing how we can keep the measure in place until September15.
Mr. Luc Thriault: Madam Chair, our nurses and orderlies are exhausted. They're at the end of their ropes. Now is the time to thank them, not the time to turn our backs on them. It's not the time for dilly-dallying or discussions. It's the time to tell them that we will be there to help them until the end. I will repeat my question. What does the army have to do that is more important than helping caregivers save the lives of those who built Quebec?
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The Leader of the Government in the House of Commons is asked to keep his answer brief.
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Madam Chair, the Government of Canada is there and will continue to be there to help the people who built Quebec. The Government of Canada will work with the Quebec government to make that happen.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go to the honourable member for Red DeerMountain View, Mr. Dreeshen.
Mr. Earl Dreeshen (Red DeerMountain View, CPC): Thank you so much. Madam Chair, on May 14 I asked the Minister of Agriculture when the Liberal government would put aside its usual campaign rhetoric and recognize the very detrimental impact the carbon tax is having on farmers across this country. Minister Bibeau proudly noted that according to their data, the average cost of the carbon tax per farm across Canada is $210 to $819. We know that these numbers are completely unfounded and are not based on any factual evidence. The fact is that the Liberal government's own Parliamentary Budget Officer has estimated that at $25 per tonne, the cost for an 855-acre crop farm in Alberta is well over $6,000. The office came up with that using the government's statistics from the 2016 agricultural census. Madam Chair, the evidence is right in front of the minister. When will this Liberal government come clean with Canadians and recognize the disastrous impact the carbon tax is having on Canada's critical agriculture and agri-food sector?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food): Madam Chair, our pollution pricing policy is designed to grow a clean economy. To support this sector, we have put in place the following measures. Emissions from livestock and crop production are not priced. Farm fuels and fuels from cardlock facilities are exempt, and there is a partial rebate for propane and natural gas used in commercial greenhouses. Our government has been very open and transparent about our pollution pricing plan. We will do a review of our pollution pricing system in 2020, focused on competitiveness issues in trade-exposed industries such as agriculture. It is also important to remember that this is about tackling climate change and that 100% of the revenues stay in the province. We will continue to support our farmers and food processors as they provide an essential service across Canada.
Mr. Earl Dreeshen: Madam Chair, Minister Bibeau keeps talking about wanting to protect Canadians' environment. Well, the truth is that Canada's farmers, ranchers and processors have for years demonstrated their ability to deliver meaningful reductions in emissions and to safeguard the environment through the adoption of new technologies, education and innovative management practices, but the government ignores these efforts. Will the minister at the very least admit to Canadians that Canadian farmers are unable to pass on the cost of the carbon tax to consumers and instead have to absorb those extra costs out of their own pockets?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Madam Chair, allow me to explain again our government's position on pollution pricing. The price and method were developed so we could build an increasingly clean economy. We put a number of measures in place to help the agriculture sector. Emissions from animal and plant production aren't taxed. Farm fuels and fuels delivered to off-farm points-of-sale are also
Mr. Earl Dreeshen: Thank you, Madam Chair. I do have another question.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): I am watching the time, Mr. Dreeshan. You have a couple more seconds.
Mr. Earl Dreeshen: Thank you. Madam Chair, Minister Bibeau has repeatedly asked stakeholders to send her data about the impacts of the carbon tax on farmers, so this is exactly what they have been doing. The Atlantic Grains Council, the Grain Farmers of Ontario, Producteurs de grains du Qubec and the Western Canadian Wheat Growers Association issued a joint statement at the beginning of this year in which they estimated that the cumulative indirect inflation of carbon tax on farm costs will be $14.50 an acre this year, with that cost escalating by more than double by 2022 to almost $30 an acre. These are huge numbers. Why does the Liberal government continue to ignore the facts presented to it and continue to misrepresent the truth to Canadians?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Madame Chair, I can assure you that we have paid close attention to all the information that has been provided to us and that our calculation was also based on this information provided by provinces and different stakeholders. Mr. Earl Dreeshen: Thank you Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Our government has been very open and transparent about our pollution pricing plan. The department used data from stakeholders and provinces Mr. Earl Dreeshen: Thank you very much, Madam Chair Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau:as well as the 2019 agricultural tax data to estimate the average cost of pollution pricing associated with grain drying at up to 0.4% of overall operating costs. It is important to remember that we have put in place many special provisions Mr. Earl Dreeshen: Madam Chair Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: like exempting farm fuel and providing other financial supports for farmers.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Mr. Dreeshen, I am watching the time, and the minister is allowed to answer for the same amount of time that you used to ask the question. Therefore, I would hope that we would allow her to finish. She has finished, and unfortunately the time is up. The committee now stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon. | |
doc_182 | Marketing: Great man . Who starts ?
Project Manager: Well I'll uh start just with another presentation , so then we can uh look at th at the agenda uh for this meeting .
Marketing: Alright , great . Alright .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . I've put some uh new things in the in the map .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Uh oh . {vocalsound} This is it . I don't know the shortcut , so {disfmarker} Ah F_ five . Well our functional design meeting , that's the stage we're in .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: And you also ha all three of you have uh prepared something about it .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: Well um in we'll uh just have a look at the at the notes from the previous meeting , what we uh thought we had dec decided . But uh {disfmarker} Uh then we'll uh look at uh the three uh presentations uh from you . I think you have prepared uh all three uh ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: Well , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um we'll look at th the new project requirements we uh {disfmarker} I dunno . Y you also have uh received that mail , the new project requirements from our bosses ?
Industrial Designer: No . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh I've received a mail with uh some additional requirements ,
Marketing: No . You're the only one . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and I'll have a look if {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: Well I think we should show them before your presentations , because it's not really uh smart uh to uh to include some things uh we can't , because of the new requirements . Well um then we can make some decisions about our remote control functions .
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: We have to deb we have to decide it in this meeting what our function will be . And then uh we can discuss uh some more closely . Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We have forty minutes for this uh discussion ?
Project Manager: Uh yeah , I think so . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: Well uh {gap} the closing uh we'll not uh look at it yet .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} now I'll look at {gap} show {gap} this board . Um {disfmarker} Well uh notes , first meeting . Now . I gave a disc a a presentation . Uh we familiarised ourself with the boards and then we discussed some first ideas . So we said that uh we have to merge the strong points from our uh competitors , and uh look at their uh remote controls .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: We should make it uh compatible with our new D_V_D_ and other releases we have , our technical releases .
Industrial Designer: Huh ?
Project Manager: Uh not too many one buttons . One recognisable button in the middle , where you do the most important functions with . And um well they can have two functions , because uh you have a D_V_D_ and a television .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Um the design has to fit the hand , be original , but also be familiar . {vocalsound} It's uh one of our ideas .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah well that wa It's just thirty minutes ago ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so it's not quite uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But well I have to do it .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm , now it's right .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: The materials uh well should be hard plastic with rubber from {gap} , and uh well the labelling of the buttons should be indestructible . It should be uh recognisable at all times .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's meant to be easily wiped out , yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Well fronts were to be {gap} just like mobile telephones . And uh the technical aspects um {disfmarker} And also labelling of the buttons , the functions should be universal standards . Well that's just uh some ideas from the first meeting . It's quite logical al all of it .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um now the new project requirements , I'll just show them . I got this mail from uh our bosses . Well , teletext goes out . We will not use teletext .
User Interface: Oh .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Maybe a new sort of thing , but n but not teletext .
Industrial Designer: I I disagree , but uh it's not uh t it's not my place to disagree I guess .
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker} the second is a bit sh pity because we just said we wanted to d include the D_V_D_
User Interface: Oh .
Project Manager: and they don't want it , because of our time we have for this project .
Marketing: Alright .
Industrial Designer: Oh , alright .
User Interface: Oh , that's a shame .
Project Manager: So that's a shame , because uh especially for the third requirement we want to reach people under the thirty years . Because uh we don't have those customers a lot at th at this point . Um well it's a bit pity because it's just those people want to have uh one remote control for all those technical devices they can uh reach it .
Marketing: Yeah . But let's forget about it . It's just time-consuming ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: so we uh have to go on .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well and uh our corporate image should stay rec recognisable in our products . So uh we have to uh use uh maybe a slogan , maybe a colour , and um {disfmarker} Yeah well uh on our remote controls the design has to be uh , well as we already said a actually , uh familiar . Uh not only just uh the shape but also our company .
Marketing: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , we are a {vocalsound} real fashionable company . I read uh I read it on the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I didn't know what company we were ,
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: but we we design uh especially trendy uh trendy trendy stuff .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Okay .
Industrial Designer: So it has to be uh a modern design . That's important to know , uh when you design a thing of course .
Project Manager: Yes . I I uh noted uh our uh slogan that we have , our company . It's uh we mm put the fashion in electronics .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So maybe that's a slogan we can put uh somewhere on our remote control or something .
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Alright then um we're going to uh have three presentations .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: You want to start ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} I think I have to start .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh you have to start ? I didn't see anything about uh who had to start .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} The order ? No . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh no , no problem .
Project Manager: Well s then start .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: I I just have to uh to think which file's mine ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: 'cause I was uh bit in a hurry .
Project Manager: Okay . Well uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think it's this one . But I'm not sure . {gap}
Project Manager: {gap} You already uh opened uh PowerPoint .
Marketing: Hmm ? Yeah . S Right .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yes . This is it .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Well , I'm going to tell you something about functional requirements .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Um to start with these points . Uh next sheet ? Um at first I tell you something about what people dislike about the current uh controls , because it's uh a smart thing to exclude those things . Uh , furthermore it's very important what they do like and what they do use . {vocalsound} Um then I tell something about um the most important issues . So we have to focus on those three thing three things . And in the end I'll um show you our target {vocalsound} audience or our target product users , customers . Well , {vocalsound} um the first findings are that people um think most controls are very kind of ug ugly .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's seventy five per cent of the current users . They don't like it , so we might think about fronts in that section . Um {disfmarker} They also say , that's about uh I thought it was fifty per cent , uh that more money will be spent on uh better looking controls . So it's very important that you design a a nice looking control . {vocalsound} Um the current user uses his machine just about well all of the time for a few functions . Uh , almost every user uses it d the the control for just ten per cent of its capacity . So it's really important to make the the buttons for the common uh tasks kind of big or kind of uh flashy . Furthermore , it's uh {vocalsound} seventy five per cent of the users uh zaps a lot . Thus it might be uh might be smart to make a a big uh zapping button or something in the middle , so you can reach it with your thumb .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You can zap away . Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , yeah right .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Right . A lot of losers um users lose their controls in their {vocalsound} in their living room .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So it might be sensible to make some kind of a button on your television , that's your um your control beeps or something , that you can find this very easily .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I dunno , maybe that's an idea .
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Marketing: 'Cause it's uh a big {disfmarker} I think fifty per cent of the users loses his its control , within the same room .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh ?
Project Manager: It should actually uh {disfmarker} It should actually be loose from the television ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: because it can also be used for other televisions . So if you deliver a small uh click-on device that you can put on your television , that bleeps to your remote control , everyone can use it .
Marketing: Yeah but what if you lose your click-on device ?
Project Manager: No you can click it on your television .
Marketing: Yeah but if someone d somebody else uses it in ano other room or something ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah in another room , yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well yes .
Marketing: Nee but it it specifically says it's uh the the control is lost in the same room .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So {disfmarker} Well a beeping device would be {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well we'll have a look at it , yeah .
Marketing: Uh furthermore the learning time is a problem . Uh thirty four thirty four per cent um thinks it's it's too uh too difficult to learn . So the the learning curve should be very short uh for the dumbest people should be able to use it .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I think our uh user uh expert should also consider manual a manual for the remote , of course . Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah but people don't read manuals .
Industrial Designer: I didn't read it ?
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: Oh , alright .
Marketing: No .
Industrial Designer: {gap} users to uh add one ? Do you think ?
User Interface: I don't think {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think you should put more time in the in the design of uh pick up and use , than a manual .
User Interface: Yeah . Yes you should {disfmarker} You should could take a look at it and and and know how it how it's supposed to work . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Yeah alright . Because they don't use it ? Alright .
Project Manager: Well there sh should always be a menu ,
Marketing: Yeah . Right .
Project Manager: but it c can be very short .
Marketing: And it should be consistent with consistent with older remotes .
User Interface: Yeah but nobody reads a manual about a remote control , I think .
Project Manager: Yes okay .
Industrial Designer: Well maybe for the {disfmarker} If you don't recognise a button who d who d who do I call uh wh when I don't know it ?
Marketing: Alright .
User Interface: Yeah right . It sh it should be there , the manual . But but not to explain how the remote works . Only {disfmarker} {gap}
Marketing: And we don't have much time . So it's better to uh put our attention to the the design . So you can pick up and use it , than {disfmarker} I think .
Project Manager: Well we are a design team ,
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: we can say to some uh writer uh make a manual point .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Isn't it part of the of the u
Marketing: Yeah right , right .
Project Manager: So
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No . No . Never mind .
Project Manager: Well we'll have a look . Um yes ?
Marketing: Next point . Um R_S_I_ .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well that's about twenty per cent I thought . But uh the designer should uh take it uh {vocalsound} should uh {disfmarker} Wie zeg ik dat ? Yeah , consider the consequences of using your remote .
Industrial Designer: Consider the m Yeah .
Marketing: It should be a good in your hand . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: Right , this is the most important part . Um , we're {disfmarker} Like the requirements said , we're gonna specify of we're gonna target a younger audience . Um , {vocalsound} that's about sixty per cent of the market , so it's uh quite important . Um research shows that they like to have a little L_C_D_ screen on their on their uh zapping uh device . Uh {disfmarker} I thought it was the age between sixteen and twenty , ninety nine per cent of uh the people like that .
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: So it's very important we should definitely have that in our uh designs .
Project Manager: Well with twelve Euro fifty as production cost , we can't uh afford an L_C_D_ uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's going to be expensive . Yeah .
User Interface: No .
Marketing: Yeah but {vocalsound} they think it's really important .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So if we want to s If we have a big {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If we make lots of uh of the stuff , maybe we can uh buy it very cheap , I dunno . We have to uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well we'll uh consider it uh .
Project Manager: Yeah well uh it's your your task to uh look into the costs uh of those uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We'll think abo we'll think {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , I don't know . I don't have any information on that . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Nigh
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I know . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No , we'll look we'll look into that later . Alright ?
Marketing: Right . And uh another thing is uh speech uh recognition . They also like that ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but research is very uh costly . So {disfmarker}
User Interface: I think that's uh difficult to realise also .
Marketing: Yeah , but {vocalsound} it {vocalsound} it might be important for the sale .
Industrial Designer: We have very demanding clients .
Project Manager: It's not yet a standard uh development uh those so {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} No and we have customers in multiple uh countries I think .
Project Manager: We sh
Marketing: Well I do think L_C_D_ is more reachable than the speech recognition .
Project Manager: Yeah absolutely .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: So we might consider L_C_D_ screens .
User Interface: {vocalsound} No .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah , alright . Well we'll consider both and and see what uh what what we can find , I think .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: We don't rule them out uh yet .
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: {gap} 'Kay .
Marketing: Alright . Um , I think that's it . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Alright .
Marketing: I think it is sensible to u uh to take this take these points into the notes .
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: So you can {disfmarker} Right .
Project Manager: Well you {disfmarker} I c I can uh still see your presentation .
Marketing: Yeah . Right .
Project Manager: It's in the {disfmarker} Well uh next um I dunno who is next .
User Interface: Oh you go .
Industrial Designer: Shall I give a technical talk ?
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: Well go ahead . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well uh it is my task to uh explain uh or to point out a working design .
Project Manager: Yip .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We have that here . Okay , how do you enlarge it , so that you can have the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: F_ five .
Industrial Designer: F_ F_ five .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} F_ five .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well , the working design ,
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: that's my uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Next button . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well alright uh , you know who I am and what I do . So uh we have this . It's a bit uh unclear because I wanted to copy paste something . It was originally in black and white
Marketing: Oh right .
Industrial Designer: but it became black and purple .
Marketing: Purple {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: But I think you can read it .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , yeah , yeah . A bit .
Industrial Designer: Um well um I think it's important uh for you to realise the basic function of a remote control . Uh well you can see uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Maybe you can select it . So it uh inverts .
Industrial Designer: {gap} And I then can select I can select on the dings {gap} It goes to the next page .
Marketing: {gap} the p the whole picture .
Project Manager: Click . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Nah , uh never mind .
Industrial Designer: Well , you can read it ,
User Interface: Yeah , go ahead .
Industrial Designer: it's not too difficult . Meanwhile , this is a schematic uh um view of uh how a basic remote control works . You have uh basically uh the energy , the power of the of the remote control , uh and the sender , w which is the LED , the the the the the the the the the bulb that sends the the infrared beam to the , no , to the set .
Marketing: Yeah . Alright .
Industrial Designer: And uh the source is of course the user . Uh the user interface is um {vocalsound} uh the {vocalsound} the {gap} the buttons of course .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And the {vocalsound} the user interface sends uh the the different signals of the different buttons to the chip , and the chip uh sends it to the LED , and the LED sends it to the receiver . That's the that's the basic idea .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Very basic .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um well I have uh {vocalsound} uh {vocalsound} put it in a in in in a {vocalsound} a couple of basic steps .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh the remote uh is basically just waiting for a user to press a key . It does nothing until uh of course uh the key is pressed . The key {gap} a signal to a chip , uh the chip senses the connection . {vocalsound} uh and recognise the key . So {vocalsound} well you understand .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: The chip uh produces Morse code , um a specific code to indicate that specific button that is pressed , of course . And it uses transistors in the in the remote control to amplify and to send uh that signal again to the to the LED , which is the bulb , of course .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Now the LED produces an infrared beam and signals the , well it's uh very simple , and signals the uh signals to the sensor on the T_V_ set ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and the T_V_ set uh also recognises the the {vocalsound} the signal , and performs the assigned task .
Project Manager: So it is also why we have to have a button that says uh I'm now busy with a D_V_D_ uh if we had done that . And a button for T_V_ . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Ah bu Yeah , but we don't . Uh we {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No no , but {disfmarker} Yeah . Exactly . Uh well this is uh the basic uh function of a remote .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I've some couple of pictures here . It's a very basic one . And uh {gap} if we if we're going to add an uh an uh L_C_D_ screen to it , it uh won't look anything like this , but {disfmarker} This is very basic uh basically the the shape of um of a remote control . It has uh very little buttons and {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But it it uh it's it's quite um {disfmarker} Yeah , you can easily recognise the buttons . They're uh far enough apart and an anything . It's not very um uh not very high-tech uh
User Interface: High tech . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: indeed , and it's not very user-friendly . Uh if you look at the shape , it's uh just a simple long box uh shape . So we have to uh change a little bit uh to that , uh so that uh it becomes more user-friendly , and that uh problems like uh R_S_I_ and uh those kinds of thing don't don't oc don't occur .
Marketing: Right . Can I say something ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Um I have a table here about uh the l the relevance of the buttons . Uh the power button is used very much , channel selection , volume and teletext . Well teletext is not an option , so that uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: But I think it's very important to make um the power , channel and volume buttons uh near to the thumb , so you can't have R_S_I_ uh consequences .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , because they are the the most important buttons and you can immediately {disfmarker}
Marketing: Right . Make them big , make them easy to uh to press .
Project Manager: Well but but {vocalsound}
User Interface: You can also like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You don't have to look and and search for them .
Project Manager: if you have um the most used buttons all in one place , and you keep making the same um well moves .
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: Yeah , I was thinking you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , right . Right .
Project Manager: But if y if you would put it at a different place , then you have to move your hands ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and that's on of the things about R_S_I_ .
User Interface: Are some of the the the um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , that's right . That's right . That's right .
Industrial Designer: Well you you can't have any uh every button {vocalsound} under the thumb , of course .
Marketing: We
Project Manager: No but the most important buttons m maybe you can just put them a bit apart so you would reject R_ R_S_I_ R_S_I_ .
Marketing: But {disfmarker} Yeah . That's very important . And {disfmarker}
User Interface: Maybe you can make , for for channel changing , two little buttons on the side of the remote , so you can just do like this . Like some uh little uh Gameboy things or some
Project Manager: Yes I've saw that on m on mi mobile telephones they also have uh those buttons .
Marketing: But is that is that useable ?
User Interface: Hmm ?
Marketing: Do people , uh when they pick up a remote , know that they have to do that ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: It's a f it's a new feature ,
Project Manager: Well it it's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: you can make make a double feature l like a button on the top and under it .
User Interface: Yeah alright , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well also i if someone puts {vocalsound} picks up his uh remote {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , but if you s say them up and down , they they'll understand it {gap} , I think .
Project Manager: Yeah . If someone puts up i uh picks up his remote , and he picks up it he he touches the side then he's a already on the next channel .
User Interface: Eighty per cent would .
Industrial Designer: Well , {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah , he feels it immediately .
Project Manager: That's very irritating , I think .
User Interface: Yeah that's true .
Marketing: Yeah , that's right . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Right , continue .
Industrial Designer: But in e in any case the the basic function should be uh indeed , and as you say at the thumb .
Marketing: Sorry . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I think that's a good idea , and uh and that the less important uh buttons , like the the the different channels , uh the numbers one two three four five as well , should be uh yeah well not in reach , because uh they don't use it uh all the time . Well it's uh pretty pretty {vocalsound} basically uh as you said .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: And I have some pictures of the inside workings , but uh I don't want to get too technical ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: because uh that's not uh very uh useful for you .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's your part of the job . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , that's right .
Industrial Designer: So yeah {gap} exactly {gap} this is uh how it uh looks from the inside .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: And uh well that's about it I think . Oh yeah , I still have this . Oh I had to delete this , but I had to make a schematic uh of the of the new {disfmarker}
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: But I had too too little time ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but uh don't uh don't look at it please .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well we understand .
Industrial Designer: I I think it's it's clear uh how it works .
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: We understand .
Marketing: Yeah , it's clear .
Project Manager: Oh right , no .
Industrial Designer: Alright . That's the most important thing .
Project Manager: Nice . Then uh Mike can uh give the third presentation .
Industrial Designer: Alright . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: How late is did we start his presentation uh ? {gap}
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I dunno . I think uh w About twenty minutes ago ?
Project Manager: Wha Yeah .
Marketing: Losing time losing time . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well then we have still the time , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But we do have to come to a decision , right later on .
Marketing: Yeah right . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap}
User Interface: Well I thought um everybody on the website {vocalsound} uh would see the same thing , but obviously {vocalsound} that's not the case .
Marketing: I don't think so .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , uh there are different uh {disfmarker} We have all have different home pages , with different links .
Project Manager: Oh yeah ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah right .
Project Manager: Uh ?
User Interface: For instance you couldn't see this . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay , yeah well .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Yeah . Well I'm Mike {gap} , User Interface Designer .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: The the method ? Well {disfmarker} I used my own experience with remotes , took a good l look uh at the remotes on the corporate website , which are these two .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: These are already in use ?
User Interface: Yes , these are from from another uh manufacturer .
Marketing: Alright , okay .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker} This one is engineering-centred , so this one has the most functions and um things .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I like user-centred .
Marketing: Yeah , me too .
User Interface: I like user-centr centred uh {vocalsound} uh also the best .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . We also do that .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Well , I thought uh that we uh reduce the the option to control the D_V_D_ also , and teletext and that kind of stuff .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Uh so I thought we we we would use more or need more buttons than this one .
Marketing: But we have to reject that , because of the requirements ?
User Interface: But {disfmarker} Yes .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Th that's why this mm is not relevant any more I feel .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Alright .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker} I think this is about the maximum number of buttons uh we'll need .
Marketing: Yeah , right .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I um I kinda like the shape . {vocalsound} I think this is what we talked about . But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {gap} You can't really see uh the differ from different sides .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But I think uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: No I've {disfmarker} Well I showed it somewhere . Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh you can draw it if you {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh yeah . I think we should go further with the idea of a removable front .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So we can can uh yeah customise the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well absolutely , but i th they all have to have something about um the recognition from our company . So we cannot just uh make someone w
User Interface: Mm ? {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} It's a front . It's not the the whole remote that changes , of course .
Project Manager: No but that's th the side they look uh look at is the front .
User Interface: You can {disfmarker}
Marketing: But it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So if y if you make a a front with just a a tiger on it , then uh our recognition is totally gone .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah , that's right
User Interface: Or you can you can can put the same symbol on on every remote .
Marketing: Yeah , that's a must .
User Interface: So l like Ericsson does {gap} every uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , we must .
Industrial Designer: We can put it on the on the back side .
Marketing: We must have that .
Project Manager: Yeah well and and {disfmarker}
User Interface: S something like this . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: It's recognisable .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: We can make a symbol of the company right here . And {vocalsound} if you put a front on it , there's a hole on the front . So the symbol's always on
User Interface: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , so that you don't replace the symbol , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah yeah .
User Interface: Yeah yeah . Something like that ,
Project Manager: Or the th the the lowest part of the remote isn't changed by the front .
User Interface: in the {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Those kind of things .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: But let's not focus on the front {gap} . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes . Okay .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Well so uh uh like I said I thought we'd we'd use more function . If we we had to include more functions . But we don't . So um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah . I think this is about the maximum number of buttons we need .
Marketing: Alright .
User Interface: Maybe some less . Like eject we don't need , and some other buttons we don't need . I think uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mike , uh can you put uh that picture from me on the in the Word documents file ? In Map ?
User Interface: Yeah , I will . I think uh for the remote um uh less is more . {vocalsound} The less buttons the better the design . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: We should go with that concept I think .
Marketing: Yeah , I agree .
User Interface: I know .
Project Manager: Alright .
Marketing: I've I've got another point .
Project Manager: Yeah ?
Marketing: Um there are two target audi audiences , and we've uh chose for the younger one .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Um , research has shown that um it's a high interested uh in features . They are high high interested in feature . But they are more critical . Fo Yeah , critical .
Industrial Designer: The younger uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: So {disfmarker} The younger audience .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So we must um must design uh a control that really speaks to the people .
Project Manager: Well what if we um {disfmarker} I at I at home have a remote that has um the most familiar uh buttons on the top , and the bottom side of the front has a little clip ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: a f a little uh {disfmarker} You can click away and then you have f much more functions that most people don't use but s some do do .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . I think uh the most functions uh underneath that uh {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Clip aren't used much .
Project Manager: Well but because you say they their features are important , they want m um a lot ,
Industrial Designer: No um mm usually {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah right .
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: but not {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , but what kind of features ? Like L_C_D_ screens and voice recognition .
Industrial Designer: Yeah I think {vocalsound} m most {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah but {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: But I've {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Most uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Here , look at these numbers . The newest features are , like I said , are uh L_C_D_ and uh speech uh control . Our audience , these people , are very like these uh features .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Uh .
Marketing: You see ? So we must build in something , or they will to uh go to the concurrent .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Competitors . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Our competitor . Yeah .
Marketing: The concurrent ? {vocalsound} Competitors , right .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So , I do think we have to uh have some features .
Project Manager: Yeah . Well maybe w we could uh s
Marketing: Even though they cost a little more .
Project Manager: On um some uh calculators you have lo those little little L_C_D_ th that you can click on or something ,
Marketing: Right . Right .
Project Manager: or that you can click uh out uh of the remote . And if if that's gives you a little bit of sta status information .
Marketing: Like a ticker-tape .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Which programme you are l watching or something .
User Interface: Yeah , that's nice . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Those kind of things , uh because you also have those uh those program recognition for your V_ V_C_R_s . And uh well if y if your remote picks that up also , you they can display which programme you're currently watching .
Marketing: Yeah , right . Yeah right .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah . So it it just signals the the different uh sig uh the different symbols on the screen you have ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: uh because if you change to s channel two you have two on the screen and two on your on your um on your L_C_D_ screen . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: For example . It it could be such a little uh th that you can click in and out and you and you have it .
User Interface: Yeah , we should keep that simple too .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: It will {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But should it uh really be uh clickable , uh {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well maybe .
Marketing: No not clickable .
User Interface: No , it should be uh integrated .
Industrial Designer: or {vocalsound} or just integrate inside to try to make it d more trendy . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Nah , no no no .
User Interface: I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , just at at the top . So when you s {vocalsound} you sit like this you can can watch .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah ,
Marketing: I think it should be at the top .
User Interface: something like on um some radios in car . You {disfmarker} Where it's , yeah , walking to {disfmarker} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah right . It's a ticker-tape idea .
Project Manager: R_D_S_s or something .
Industrial Designer: But that's of course uh a bit more uh expensive than uh the basic uh calculator design , with the scrolling text and {vocalsound} that kind of thing .
User Interface: Wa Yeah .
Project Manager: Well I think it's you got {disfmarker} It just means it's a script that's uh keeps it uh rolling ,
Marketing: Well it's just one script . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and it's not uh {disfmarker} That's five minutes off uh implementing time I think uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , five minutes of ja ja for programming .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So I don't think that's the issue .
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: Alright , we go with the L_C_D_ screen ?
Project Manager: Uh well I think so , yes . Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah well we we we still need to know how much that will cost .
Marketing: 'Kay . Right , I don't know if I can find that , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We're g No but we're we'll have to look into that .
User Interface: Or maybe you will get that information uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um we can use this board again , I think .
Marketing: Next time . Yeah right .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh we can put some um decisions about um the controls we want , th the issue . {vocalsound} Where is my presentation ? {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , I understand what you're saying .
Project Manager: {gap} Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: We should have a general idea of how it's gonna look .
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker} I mean we're all here now , I think . These I've already given you . So we have to decide on the different remote control functions . So we want to have a small L_C_D_ screen that's special .
Marketing: Right . At the top .
Industrial Designer: Shouldn't we start with the most important parts ?
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: At the top or at the bottom ?
Industrial Designer: The L_C_D_ screen alright {gap} but we should start with the power button ?
Marketing: I think the top is more uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah but {disfmarker}
Marketing: When you s How do you zap ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: You just sit in your chair ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Huh ?
User Interface: Yeah but with with the L_C_D_ screen on the top it gets a bit unnatural .
Marketing: With the remote ?
Project Manager: That thing is terrible .
User Interface: 'Cause most remotes have some space left at the bottom . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah but that's where your hand ball might be .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , no Mm .
Marketing: Yeah , I dunno .
Industrial Designer: And then uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: We'll draw two , and then we'll see uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Maybe we should uh centralise the discussion here . {vocalsound} I dunno what uh you were talking about but {disfmarker}
Marketing: No {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} we are busy with something {gap} .
Marketing: Um he thinks {disfmarker} Yeah , right . He thinks it's better to put the L_C_D_ at the bottom , and I think it's better at the top .
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh . Why do you think it's better at the bottom ?
User Interface: Uh well because most uh remotes have um some space left at the bottom , and that way you can keep the shape recognisable for everybody .
Marketing: But your {disfmarker}
User Interface: I c
Industrial Designer: But you just can put uh the the the the the whole interface a bit down , so that there's room for the for the interface .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Well I d I think that's that's ugly but {disfmarker}
Marketing: The the ticker {disfmarker} The L_C_D_ is like like small . {vocalsound} It's it's wide .
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh .
Marketing: It's not not high . But {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well I th I think Mike Mike has a point ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} I th
Industrial Designer: And and we can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: because um when when uh when I use a remote I l I hate the buttons but buttons at the at the bottom .
User Interface: Yeah . Power button always {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Bottom .
Project Manager: So and and I I like to use the ones on the top .
User Interface: Yeah , y you gotta zap like this or {vocalsound} you want to {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: So when I u when I have to have an L_C_D_ s scr window {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah right . But {disfmarker} We're making a remote with {vocalsound} with a few functions you know .
Industrial Designer: Well {vocalsound} that's {vocalsound} a bit exaggerated . Well , I agree with you {gap} . It's it's also more recognisable .
Marketing: We
Industrial Designer: It looks more like a calculator to people , if you have the l the the the thing on top . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes but we we we we don't want that .
User Interface: Yeah you don't want {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We don't want them to look like a calculator .
User Interface: You want uh {disfmarker} Yeah it it it must be a remote .
Project Manager: We want to look it like our original but familiar {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah w well ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but uh you don't have to throw uh um important aspe {vocalsound} important aspect like familiarity uh completely away ,
Marketing: High-tech {gap} . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yea
Industrial Designer: uh because {vocalsound} I think it's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Maybe a bic uh better uh white uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We White ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I think it's still important to have it at the top ,
Marketing: Width .
Project Manager: Width . Uh format yeah format ? Line width ? Width ?
Industrial Designer: because it's uh it's more familiar that way .
Marketing: {gap} Th that's not a problem .
Project Manager: Yeah ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} When I draw here it
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {disfmarker} Oh . Huh ?
Project Manager: It's a bit off .
Marketing: Yeah , it's off .
Project Manager: Well . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} A little a little bit .
Marketing: {vocalsound} It {vocalsound} it needs to be calibrated again . Well {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well uh let's uh talk about that later uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Maybe you should another pen .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Maybe that's uh better . {gap} You e you only have one pen for that screen . Yeah .
Marketing: Where ?
Project Manager: It's special pen .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Alright , we have to make a decision now ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: because we don't have much time . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No .
Marketing: I think we have uh a few functions , and we can put uh the L_C_D_ above it , and still have lots of room at the bottom , where you can put your hand .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . I I agree .
Project Manager: I think it should be at the button , bottom . Bottom . The L_C_D_ .
User Interface: At the bottom ?
Industrial Designer: Well I'm the {vocalsound} I I'm the designer , so um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} In a few minutes {disfmarker}
Marketing: At the bot
User Interface: Oh yeah , oh yeah , I totally agree . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So {disfmarker} We are two uh V_S_ two . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well but uh what what if we we first decide the different functions ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} He's the boss . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and then look at the design .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Right . Great .
Industrial Designer: Uh we uh we were busy with that .
Project Manager: Because we have to decide this .
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah we should uh summon the the different uh aspects of the thing .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So , we have the power button .
Marketing: And moreover I think that you two should be uh come to consensus about the L_C_D_ s .
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: It's uh your it's your job . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well we have a power button .
Industrial Designer: Yeah of course . Uh it's uh . Yeah . W wh
User Interface: No it's our job .
Project Manager: Guys ?
User Interface: For all of us I think . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: While you have to agree , I can say {gap} it's like this and {vocalsound} you must agree . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , right .
Project Manager: Guys ?
Marketing: Alright , let's keep it central .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We have a power button , setting buttons , L_C_D_ window , the number buttons {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} The ten numbers ? Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: Channel , yeah .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Volume ?
Industrial Designer: Volume control .
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh the mute button .
Industrial Designer: Well let's look at your uh design . Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: I h love that one .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh .
User Interface: I think we we should use something like this um to um {disfmarker} The the channel up and channel down button ? {vocalsound} Yeah , in circle , you know ?
Project Manager: Yes . Yeah . Yeah yeah yeah . Well that's that's also design .
User Interface: And and a volume control also in it .
Project Manager: Yes . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: {gap} Yeah .
Project Manager: Well h ho
Industrial Designer: But th th on this remote th these controls are for something else , a D_V_D_ player or something . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes . Yes . They are for some uh video uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yes , as I already said , we could drop some of these buttons . {vocalsound}
Marketing: You should put that uh power button , channel and volume should have the most uh importance .
User Interface: Yeah . I think these should be in one big circle in the middle .
Marketing: Yeah , but what he said about R_S_I_ was {vocalsound} t kinda true . When {gap} {vocalsound} when you uh put them all in the same place , the most used buttons , you're doing the same thing all the time ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and that's just what R_S_I_'s all about . So it might be smarter to put them a little more away from each other .
Project Manager: Apart . So people have to move their hand . And they get less uh complaints of R_S_I_ .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's it's also not good to completely stay in one position constantly with one hand .
Project Manager: {gap} That's what I always do ,
Industrial Designer: Y {gap}
Project Manager: because all my i important buttons are the same place .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . It's good to move uh from time to time . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yes ?
User Interface: Yeah but people don't like it when their buttons are all over the place .
Marketing: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well not {disfmarker}
User Interface: They they need to be centred .
Industrial Designer: No but now y W would we have to choose a way in middle ?
Marketing: Frequency of uh button use .
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um channels are uh most uh is most used within the hour . You can see .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Volume hardly .
Marketing: So the the {vocalsound} channel uh channel buttons should be far far apart , I think , up and down .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
User Interface: No I don't think .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh .
Project Manager: Up and down far apart from each other ?
Industrial Designer: Far apart ?
Marketing: {gap} {vocalsound} You thinking uh about R_S_I_ ?
User Interface: Yeah but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well not too much . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Y look at uh look at the frequency .
User Interface: No . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Nei not too much , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} The other the other two uh frustrations are far more important . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think you can have the two buttons of up and down close together , but you don't have uh have to have volume control and and zapping button close together .
Project Manager: Well for example the power button , you can {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well they are used four times an hour , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: If someone is constantly z zapping , it's not going to miss , that it that the power button is not right beside it . Because I have someone {disfmarker} But the buttons is way .
Marketing: Nei nei nei n I I totally agree .
Project Manager: So that one can be put away .
Marketing: But just {disfmarker} Yeah . Right . Yeah . I agree .
Project Manager: The power button can uh be uh uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Power bu button should be left at the top . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes .
Marketing: And should and should be red .
Project Manager: Oh man ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: five minutes . {vocalsound} Yeah , well five minutes left .
Marketing: Right , just make some decisions .
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: The most important things we have to uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um how are we going to do it with those numbers ?
Industrial Designer: C c can you make you make {disfmarker} We can use uh the drawing board now , I think . Uh it it doesn't work well but {disfmarker} But it it would be pretty pretty uh nice if we could just draw a simple thing .
Project Manager: Well I have it here . Yeah well that's going to take too too much time .
Marketing: I do think you have to keep you have to keep it central now .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: Mm . Yeah .
Marketing: Just uh you decide that , you decide that ,
Industrial Designer: Mm . Alright .
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: and {vocalsound} ready .
Project Manager: Well the L_C_D_ . Um you are Industrial , you are User Interface . So I think it's going to go to Mike . But you will have to make consensus with {gap} .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well consensus , um {disfmarker} We we can put it in the middle , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well it's a bit hard , because we are going to be uh individually .
Marketing: Nei . We're {disfmarker} No {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's a bit uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: We're deciding now , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: Top or bottom ?
Industrial Designer: Well uh yeah I I still think it's it's quite important though to uh to have it at the top , so
Project Manager: Yes it is .
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} Yeah . You say familiarity isn't important but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well what if we're going to now decide about the functions , and the design comes into the next round ? Plus the d th the design round is still to come huh ?
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah d Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , right . Okay .
Project Manager: Alright these functions .
User Interface: Alright .
Industrial Designer: As we we we we agreed , we do have a L_C_D_ .
Project Manager: The number f Well yes , that's alright .
Industrial Designer: So that's that's enough . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , okay .
Project Manager: W the number function . Are we going to uh do it like uh on Mike's screen with uh one button that says I'm going to do a t two number digital ?
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: How do you want it to do then ?
User Interface: Well just when you push a one one and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: There's one two three four five six six seven eight nine zero .
Project Manager: It it has to r recognise one as {vocalsound} there could still come more .
User Interface: No , {vocalsound} if you {disfmarker} On most T_V_s if you uh press two numbers shortly after each other , {vocalsound} d it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh , like that . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: They'd recognise it .
Project Manager: Alright so no button for that .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Th that's the most {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: That that's very easy . Yeah .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: Okay uh anyone any uh oth other functionalities of our uh remote ?
Industrial Designer: I think these are the the most important functions .
Marketing: Do you still have the pictures over there ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , that's about it . You do need the uh multi Or did uh {disfmarker} No , like this one . You do need them ?
Project Manager: No , we'd uh just said we didn't uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , I know .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But are we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Alright , alright uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Now okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um well because we can't integrate it with any other uh remotes , all those buttons on those pictures are uh irrelevant . So just for a television is that all we need ?
Marketing: Right . Yeah , it's most useable this way .
Industrial Designer: {gap} basic function .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Teletext is gone . So all those buttons that {vocalsound} ar are to do with teletext {disfmarker} Oh screen placing .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We'll have uh those uh buttons about uh {disfmarker} And uh the two important ones we're l f forgetting .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh there's um {vocalsound} screen . You can make it wider and less wide .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: And the button that you can go to A_V_ for your video .
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah .
Marketing: I do think we have to put that underneath a clip .
Project Manager: Those two ? But it's just two , and we make a clip ?
Industrial Designer: Uh just two just two under uh under uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Th that's a bit uh waste .
User Interface: We we can make {vocalsound} make uh a little row of like four buttons down here .
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: Yeah . Okay , right .
Project Manager: Or at the top . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I I think uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Your L_C_D_ screen is going to go . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Or at {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But you you can put uh two or three buttons under uh another section .
User Interface: Yeah alright then .
Industrial Designer: Uh that's that's too complicated .
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: You can just put it somewhere
Project Manager: Yeah
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} They they aren't used much , not as much as those other , so you can put it somewhere {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh , they can be small or round like buttons .
Industrial Designer: Yeah s bit smaller and s Well uh and and I think more at the bottom . Yeah . Yeah or at the top , yeah . What do you think uh those those buttons ?
Project Manager: Well I think they should in an in an isolated part of the remote .
Industrial Designer: Above or down ? And w where ? Well we design it later . We have it , and we design later where everything goes . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yes ? Yes . Yes . Well any other uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well if you {vocalsound} you take those th If you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Why go to video ?
Project Manager: Go to video , that's always on your remote control . To A_V_ uh to A_V_ A_V_ A_V_ .
Marketing: Yeah , but you can z you can zap t you can you can zap to the video channel from zero to uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The the video channel uh ?
User Interface: That's just zero . Yeah .
Project Manager: Well l n no not at not at my remote .
Industrial Designer: No no not always . Ze yeah zero is a different channel than uh the the video channel .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , but you can can zap down {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , but when you zap down zero you get to A_V_ .
Project Manager: Yes . I don't .
User Interface: Yes , I think th
Project Manager: I go to ninety-nine . {vocalsound}
User Interface: No , then you press ninety nine .
Marketing: Ah uh well whatever , {vocalsound} .
User Interface: I think go to video is an irrelevant button , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Th that's the button uh {disfmarker} No .
Industrial Designer: But it's easy to go {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If you are at uh at channel uh fifty five and you want to uh go immediately to the video channel , you do you have to push a to to get below zero .
Project Manager: No you can ch push zero . Yeah . Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: It's more easy to get to uh where the specific uh video channel button .
Project Manager: I I think that one button is uh {disfmarker} I use it uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , but if we're choosing to uh incorporate these buttons , you have to have uh channel setting , if you wa if you have a new T_V_ . You have to set the channels .
Project Manager: Yeah ?
Marketing: Right all th these uh different buttons you have to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: These buttons , I don't have buttons for channel setting uh especially on my remote .
Industrial Designer: Yeah well uh d different screen settings a Yeah , sk {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ah , I do . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's it's incorporated with p m plus and down , uh those {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah well y you must have .
Industrial Designer: Yeah y you you you you have screen width .
User Interface: Yeah you yeah you have one one button from {vocalsound} s set frequency o or something ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and then with plus and min minus you can uh adjust the uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Right . That's the only one we put uh in there .
Project Manager: So we still {gap} have one uh four ?
Marketing: For a screen uh fu uh channel setting .
Project Manager: Ch ch
Industrial Designer: Yeah to uh oh yeah of course to configure the programme the {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: Programme , right .
Project Manager: Okay . Oh the Okay button ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh you always have in the centre an Okay button , for your menu .
User Interface: Yeah , alright .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Menu button .
Industrial Designer: You should {disfmarker} Yeah . I think that's important .
Project Manager: Channel , setting , menu .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {gap} And and the settings to change the brightness {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} We have to go . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: the settings to change the brightness and the contrast .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Channel , yeah .
Project Manager: So um Save .
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Chief ? Chief ?
Project Manager: Yes see .
Industrial Designer: Th the menu menu button is also important .
Project Manager: Yes I have put it in .
Industrial Designer: Then you can uh {disfmarker} Where ? {vocalsound} I don't see it .
Project Manager: Here .
Industrial Designer: Oh Menu , alright .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I think things like uh contrast and brightness should be um in the menu , yeah .
Industrial Designer: In the menu . And you can uh then adjust it with the zapping buttons or something .
User Interface: Yeah , the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Alright .
Industrial Designer: Because uh the zapping buttons aren't used then if you are in the menu .
User Interface: Or the volume or something like that .
Project Manager: Guys ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Or the volume , yeah .
Project Manager: We're going to uh go to our uh rooms , and uh we'll have to decide s things on our own I think . So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Your pen .
Marketing: Ah . Great .
Industrial Designer: Yes chief .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: Well see you uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: I thought we'd uh lunch uh right now , or not ?
Project Manager: W w we have lunchtime , by the way , now uh so uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah this is this is your thing .
User Interface: Yeah , lunch break .
Marketing: Ah . Okay . {gap}
Industrial Designer: I am hungry . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Lunch .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Get into my belly . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Ah . We didn't exactly do everything but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}
User Interface: {gap} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: See you later mate . {vocalsound} | |
doc_183 | Project Manager: So uh good morning .
User Interface: Morning .
Marketing: Morning .
Project Manager: I see you all find your places .
Industrial Designer: Morning .
Project Manager: Is everybody sitting on the right place ? Yeah ?
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: I guess so . So {disfmarker} Let's see . First I will introduce myself . I don't know if uh {disfmarker} if everybody knows me , so I'm Bart ,
Marketing: My name's Frank .
Project Manager: hello . Hello .
User Interface: I'm {gap} .
Project Manager: Bart . Hello . Hello . Bart .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Welcome .
Marketing: Thank you .
Project Manager: Uh let's see . Uh let's start off um with a little presentation . Uh Now first I'll tell you a little bit about the setting . You can see there are a few cameras here . They'll record uh our actions and you'll have wires and microphones that will record your voice . Uh there are also some microphones there but th um you don't have to pay a lot of attention on those , because it will uh disappear when you don't attend to it . So is there a project documents folder ? There are some notes in it already I see , some documents . Uh I'll start with the presentation kick off . Is being modified by the administrator . Uh okay {vocalsound} .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Hmm , that's interesting .
Project Manager: Let's do it read only . Well I don't know if you've noticed , but uh we're working for Real Reaction . Uh it's a company in uh electronics . We put fashion in electronics , uh we make it work , uh we put a lot of effort in design and in the product itself . I'm Bart {gap} the project manager so I'll direct you through the project . This is our agenda . {vocalsound} Uh we have our opening acquaintance , tool training , project plan description closing .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh maybe I can sit down , then I can take some notes or {disfmarker} Let's see . Maybe you can take the minutes once in a while .
Marketing: Sure .
Project Manager: I dunno it's not a lot of work , but just uh if you hear something uh you can write down , just write it down . Uh as you can see uh it's the opening , aquaintance tool training . Aquaintance is a point we've done a bit . Um have you all seen the corporate website already ? Yeah .
User Interface: Yep .
Marketing: Yep . Visit it .
Project Manager: Have you seen any flaws in it ? I think I found one . {vocalsound} No ?
User Interface: Hmm ?
Marketing: Can't say I paid much attention to it ,
Project Manager: I can see if it works this way . No , it doesn't work here .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay no problem . But um on the corporate information side there's a th uh {disfmarker} there was Real Remote instead of Real Reaction .
Marketing: Oh yeah .
Project Manager: Real Remote is not really the company we're {disfmarker} we are , but it's just a little {gap} fault .
User Interface: Okay . Yeah .
Project Manager: Um okay , what are we going to do ? {vocalsound} Uh our project aim is as you can see a new remote control . It has to be original , trendy , and user friendly . So these are uh the points why uh we also hired you . {vocalsound} We've got the Marketing Expert for uh the trendy and user friendly look .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: And Industrial Designer uh there's also user friendly and a bit original . {vocalsound} And we've got our User Interface Designer .
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: He's also uh {disfmarker} That's about the new remote control . Uh project method um is uh there are three phases we are going through . First is functional des uh design , individual work , meetings . After the functional design , then the conceptual design and the detailed design . {vocalsound} I had some role indications on here . But I think you know it already by yourself . The Industrial Designer is going to work on the working design , uh components design and a bit of the look and feel design . Uh the User Interface Designer is going to do the technical function design , user interface concept and user interface design . {vocalsound} And the marketing expert is doing a little bit of user requirement specification , trend watching and project {disfmarker} uh product ev evaluation . So that's a bit what you're going to do . But that will be all worked out in uh other meetings .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Then we've got our first tool training . {vocalsound} We are going to work with a lot of high-tech tools here , so it's ab it's handy if we have a little bit of training first . As you can see we've got the smart boards here and here in the white board . Um in the white board here there's a little tool bar on this side . Here are some functions . You can save . N uh these functions we don't have anything to do with , only undo , you can undo a little uh piece of drawing . A blank new document for each person . Uh select a pen , eraser . Capture we don't have to do anything with . Uh then we've got our pen . This pen . It's really funny because you can draw with it on this page um in the {disfmarker} think it is form of .
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: You can also select the current colour and the line width . But then first you have to select the pen function .
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: But we're going to work with it in a minute . So okay . Uh that's very simple and it's easy to uh draw your findings and drawings on there . {vocalsound} Uh then a short thing about documents . We've got our shared folder , project {gap} project {disfmarker} what was it ? Project documents {gap} I think . But all you will found that already because there are a lot of documents in it already , so it will be okay . And these are available on the smart boards as well , so if you have a document you wanna show , just open it from the folder .
User Interface: Okay . Yeah .
Project Manager: Here is a simple tool bar . It's what I just said , it's save , print , move back or forward one page . You can switch between the different drawings . And then we're going to try out the white board .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So as you can see we g all {vocalsound} going to draw a animal . {vocalsound} Just to uh uh just to get a bit familiar with it .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Mouse wasn't running away . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That was interesting .
Project Manager: Is everybody {disfmarker} is anybody playing with the mouse ? No .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Innocent .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We're going to uh draw animal . {vocalsound} And uh just sum up a few of its favourite characteristics .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um the only thing we have to uh look after is that we use different colours , and different line width .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh there's {disfmarker} I can start from now . I will . You can use this pen by holding it like a like a little child . Because if you hold it like this , the sensors will get blocked and then the drawing won't get good .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Another thing is you have to be uh a bit slow . 'Cause if you're going to draw like really fast then um the pen won't hold up . So we choose form of current colour uh I think grey is appropriate . Then the line width . I think seven will be nice . Now you'll see my drawing capabilities .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: These are not very much , but uh {disfmarker} Uh , see you have to do it real slow . {vocalsound} Oh {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Sure .
Project Manager: Ah I was trying to draw a dolphin ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but I think his nose has to be a little bit {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But it's close .
Marketing: I'm thinking about a swordfish .
Project Manager: So what {disfmarker} yeah it's {disfmarker} this is bit of the swordfish .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , he hasn't got an eye .
User Interface: {gap} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Woah . {vocalsound} Now we've got another function . We've got the eraser .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And then you can undo this easily .
Marketing: Meat .
Project Manager: Ah it's okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And I've got to write down a few of its characteristics . Uh is {disfmarker} They've got no text tool , no . Uh . {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is typically a undo action , I think . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Pen . Maybe you have to hold it a bit upside-down . I think that's it because if you wan ar are going to do it like this then it will be a stripe . But I don't know , I'm just trying . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} This is not my work ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: okay .
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: Maybe you have to use {disfmarker} Oh .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh . I think it's a {disfmarker} it wants to draw a {disfmarker} another animal ? I don't know . It lives for the fun . So {disfmarker} It's my characteristic uh characteristic about the dolphin . It lives for the fun . So now I'm gonna hand over the pen on the new blank sheet to you .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Go ahead .
Marketing: Thank you . Okay . Gonna use a different line width . And I'm gonna draw in black . There . 'Kay , I'm not much of an artist , but here we go .
Project Manager: Maybe it's easier to draw the smaller line width , I think . Because this is going a lot better than uh I did .
User Interface: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: A sheep .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: This is my um {disfmarker} Hmm . Sheep .
Project Manager: It's nice . {vocalsound}
Marketing: With of course
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh .
Marketing: little blue dot they always get sprayed on their butts .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's a real dead sheep ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: There .
Project Manager: yeah . {vocalsound} For recognition ,
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: yeah , I see . {vocalsound} Um maybe you can also write your name somewhere .
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: On just a {disfmarker}
Marketing: They are {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Come on . You have to go really slow when you're writing .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: They're brilliant animal animals .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: And that's just a little me thingy . So . Guess I'll pass the pen to our User Interface Designer .
Project Manager: Nice .
User Interface: Okay . Um I'm just gonna draw its uh head , but mm {disfmarker} Let's see . Mm . Uh . {gap} Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sweet . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Interesting .
User Interface: You know what that is ? Or who ?
Industrial Designer: Garfield .
Marketing: A rabbit ?
User Interface: Ah okay , yeah .
Marketing: Garfield . Yeah .
User Interface: Just a {disfmarker} Mm . Guess . So uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah . That's enough . {vocalsound} Um , you say a blank ,
Project Manager: Yeah , just a blank sheet .
User Interface: or {disfmarker} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Well I was gonna draw a cat too , so .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'll just try something else .
Project Manager: No . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Something different than Garfield .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mine is a bit more skinny . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , it's pretty skinny cat . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: And the most interesting tail .
Project Manager: Is your cat , or did you find him on the street ? {gap} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well , it's supposed to be a cat . I like cats because uh they are uh independent .
Project Manager: Ah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: The pen . So .
Project Manager: Okay . That's pretty clear . So everybody knows how to work with the white board now ? So if you have any ideas or if you wanna draw anything on the white board , just ask
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: The pen . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and go ahead . It's pretty uh easy .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} 'Kay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: S {gap}
Marketing: We're being haunted .
Project Manager: haunted white board . {vocalsound} So we've got the tool uh introduction . We move along to the project finance .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um as you can see , we um for our remote control , a selling price is uh twenty five Euros . Our selling price . Uh our profit aim is fifty million Euros . Uh that's the least we have to get from our remote controls , so we have to work together to reach our aims . Uh we can do it international , so we have to focus on different kind of users , different kind of cultures , and different kind of trends as well . Um but that's all in the later stadium . Our production cost um can be maximal twelve and a half Euros , so that's also a point we have to keep in mind , that we won't make remote controls with small televisions inside , and stuff like that . It won't work . So just try to remember these points . Selling price twenty five , profit aims fifty million um , but more important is the int international market we're trying to focus on . And production cost uh maximal twelve and a half Euros . So that's leads us to our little discussion . We've got about five or ten minutes left for discussion . So I'm gonna sit down , I think . It's easier .
Marketing: Yeah , you got a message .
Project Manager: I've got a message . Five minutes . Okay ,
User Interface: Five minutes , okay .
Project Manager: that's uh good timing . {vocalsound} {gap}
Marketing: So just on a side note , why is it my laptop is only giving me a black screen ?
User Interface: Mm ?
Project Manager: Uh maybe you have to say the magic word . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Right .
Project Manager: Does it do anything ?
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: Maybe you have to just clap it down ? Mm back up again . No slide show . Hmm .
Marketing: It's off now .
Project Manager: It's off . Now you have to put it back o Oh yeah . You'll be okay , I think .
Marketing: Well , it was on , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well it's those laptops . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ah , there we are .
Project Manager: Nice . Okay . {vocalsound} But so mm does everybody has um experiences with uh remote controls , and I mean not the ordinary mote controls , but also a little bit different ones ? Like you can use for other ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm . Oh really ?
Project Manager: No ?
User Interface: Huh .
Project Manager: You ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: No , me neither .
Marketing: Well , we have a kind of broad T_V_ at home , and a D_V_D_ player , so we got like a lot of remote controls , one for the T_V_ , one for the video recorder , one for the D_V_D_ player .
Project Manager: Ah yeah .
Marketing: And I think it's {disfmarker} it would be best to just make one remote control that can operate them all .
Project Manager: Yep . Yeah
User Interface: Sure . Yeah .
Project Manager: I've I've got one at home . And you can uh program I think eight different devices in it , and you can use it for your television , anything else .
User Interface: Okay , yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: And it also operates on infra-red , so you have to got the little device inside your room , and then you can operate it from the third or th or second floor .
User Interface: Okay , yeah .
Marketing: Oh
Project Manager: So that's pretty handy when you have a video recorder or D_V_D_ player downstairs and you've got a link to your T_V_ on the second floor . So that's a pretty handy um
Marketing: really .
User Interface: Hmm . Oh . Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: thing . {vocalsound} Um but only the I think that if you can put different kind of devices in one remote control , it makes it a lot easier as well . It's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Oh .
Project Manager: That's good to remember .
Marketing: So I think you can take minutes again .
Project Manager: Yeah , that's nice , I think . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Since it's your job .
Project Manager: So we've {disfmarker} we want different functions
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: uh and we can maybe see if we can do something with the infra-red . But I don't know if that will exceed the production costs . So that uh that's something we have to find out , I think .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah . But that would be really good if we could do that . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And other functions for a remote control ? Maybe we can make it uh uh
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Um . Think it has to be shock proof
User Interface: Sure , yeah .
Marketing: 'cause
Project Manager: Shock proof .
Marketing: my remote control tends to fall a lot .
User Interface: Waterproof , or uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sure .
User Interface: Uh , you never no know uh ,
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: I w I mean uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Waterproof . Okay . So these are our um a few things we can think of . Um I will put the minutes from this meeting uh in our project folder .
User Interface: 'Kay .
Marketing: Yeah , one other little thing . Thought it might be handy to put a battery status display on it .
Project Manager: That's a {disfmarker}
Marketing: So you can see
Project Manager: battery stays .
User Interface: Okay , yeah .
Marketing: how much is left in the battery . But they'll also really drag up the production costs , so think we'll have to see about that too .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Uh .
Marketing: But maybe just a little LED , I don't know .
Project Manager: That's an idea as well . Other ideas ? Quick ideas .
Industrial Designer: Nope .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: They were all mentioned ,
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Any questions about this uh presentation ? Kick off presentation .
Marketing: Um . Nope , don't think so .
Project Manager: No ?
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: Okay , then I'll put the minutes from this meeting in the project folder , and then we can all work . Finish meeting now . {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: And we can all work uh on our own projects . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Aye sir .
Project Manager: Okay then I'll meet you in about a half an hour , I think .
Marketing: Half an hour .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: So good luck . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Yep . | |
doc_184 | Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . Good afternoon again .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So we should have our final meeting about the detail designed of {disfmarker} detail design of the product of the remote control . Um {vocalsound} So here is the agenda for today . Uh uh just going to go quickly through the minutes of the last last uh meeting then we have a p presentation of prototype of you two , sounds interesting . And we'll have um {vocalsound} presentation of evaluation crit criteria by ou our Marketing Experts . Then we'll have to go through finance evaluation of the of the cost of the thing and um hopefully uh we should fit the target o tw of twelve point five uh uh Euro . {vocalsound} Okay . So let's go . Uh if I go quickly through the minutes of the last meeting . {vocalsound} So we went through th uh w we took this following decisions . No L_C_D_ , no speech recognition technology , okay , we went through a b to a banana look and feel for the remote control . We went through the use of wheels and but buttons . {vocalsound} And also the use of a basis station for battery ch charging and uh also to um call the to call the mot mote remote control when it is lost . Okay . Um . Good . So guys let {gap} this uh wonderful thing .
Industrial Designer: Okay so we can go to the slides .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh yeah . Sorry . Um .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Number three . Oh number two sorry .
Project Manager: Which is {gap} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So final design . Final design . Okay so Michael you can go ahead .
User Interface: Yeah so uh following our decision to uh make a yellow {disfmarker} well to make a banana
Project Manager: Yeah can you show it to the the camera maybe .
User Interface: remote {disfmarker} okay so we actually have a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You can pull it out first , maybe .
User Interface: We've {disfmarker} well first first of all we made a an attractive {vocalsound} base station uh with a banana leaf uh look and feel um and uh
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: bana sit {disfmarker} the banana sits in there k you know nicely weighted so that it's not gonna tip over and um this is the remote itself , it's kind of it's it's ergonomic , it fits in the hand uh rather well . We've got the two uh {vocalsound} uh scroll wheels here which you know one on the the left for the uh volume and the one on the right for for the channel and uh underneath {vocalsound} we have the uh the turbo button which is in like a nice uh trigger position for you know for pressing quite naturally .
Project Manager: What's the use uh of the t turbo button already ?
User Interface: This is when you when you uh are scrolling the uh {disfmarker} through the channels you can tell it to to skip th past channels that you {disfmarker} quickly rather th
Project Manager: Ah yeah yeah an then you stop when you stop it stops .
User Interface: Yeah . Well when you stop scrolling the wheel it stops . But normally with uh {disfmarker} it will just uh s stay on each station briefly so you can see the the picture .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: And we we do have one more functionality . If you take the banana as such and uh you press the turbo button , so it switch ons the switch ons the T_V_ .
User Interface: The T_V_ yeah .
Project Manager: Which one ?
User Interface: The s the turbo button .
Industrial Designer: The turbo button .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: So rather than having uh an extra button for um for the on off switch you just use the turbo button .
Industrial Designer: Additional button .
Marketing: What this button for ?
User Interface: This is a teletext button . So once you press that then you get teletext
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: and you can use the the channel selector scroll wheel as uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: To navigate it through th through teletext .
User Interface: To navigate yeah .
Marketing: But if you want to go to page seven hundred ?
Industrial Designer: That's right , that's right .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: {gap} with the wheel it's easy .
Marketing: How man
User Interface: Well then you can you you have like a little uh number selection thing , you press the {gap} the the teletext button uh to move between uh the fields and then you can just scroll the number back and forth so you have s you go {disfmarker} you scroll to seven and then zero zero and then you can uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't understand it . Can you repeat it ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well you can you can press press the teletext button
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and then you then you can you can f
Industrial Designer: So then then both the scroll buttons they are for teletext browsing .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And you can tele
Marketing: Ah okay okay . Okay . Okay okay .
Industrial Designer: yeah ,
User Interface: Mm uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: once you press the teletext button then the scroll buttons they are more for teletext , they are no more for channel or vol volume .
Marketing: Okay . I see . I see . Okay . Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} And this is the uh the infrared uh port .
Industrial Designer: That's right .
User Interface: Also the top of the banana .
Project Manager: Excellent .
User Interface: So . And then we have
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: in the uh in the base station we have the the button at the front for uh for calling the uh the banana .
Project Manager: Calling . Excellent .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: And the the leaves plays the roles of of antennas ?
User Interface: Actually they do .
Project Manager: Oh .
User Interface: That's that's yeah that's uh that's form and function in the one in the one uh object .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . So it always means , whatever the rays goes by they they get reflected and then you are having a better coverage .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's like antennas .
User Interface: Yeah . So .
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: But yeah that's um that's just like {disfmarker} that's an attractive um base station .
Project Manager: Great . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} So .
Project Manager: So , what else ?
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: And for the power source we are having solar cells and rechargeable batteries and this and uh the basis station is going to have the input from the mm power line for for charging the batteries .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Is it really weight ? Is it light or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It is very light .
Project Manager: Yeah , they're light .
User Interface: It's it's uh it's about the weight of a banana .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: You know , to give you the correct look and feel .
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Ok
Industrial Designer: And we have put these different colours so that people don't mistake them mistake it as a banana .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Otherwise it's you know a child comes and so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay . Yeah yeah yeah , I see . I under I understand .
User Interface: I think a child would try to eat it anyway , so maybe we should
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: consider that . {gap} maybe health and safety aspects .
Project Manager: Ah yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Oh we didn't think of that yet . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So for the power source , apparently you still {disfmarker} you you want to use both solar cells and batteries .
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah that's right .
Project Manager: Uh you mean {disfmarker} okay . So {disfmarker}
User Interface: I don't really know if the solar cells are actually necessary any more if you have a recharging base station .
Project Manager: Yeah , where are going to {disfmarker} where are you are you going to place them ?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm mm-hmm . It'll It'll be always at top somewhere at there .
User Interface: If I was gonna place them I'd put them on the on the top here since that's like uh the black bit
Project Manager: You have enough surface ? You {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: but yeah I don't I really don't think it's necessary to have the solar cells anymore .
Industrial Designer: Yeah because now we are having rechargeable batteries
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: so that that is {gap} .
Project Manager: What will be the autonomy ? Roughly ?
User Interface: The what sorry ?
Project Manager: The autonomy . Autonomy .
User Interface: What do you mean ?
Project Manager: Uh I mean how long does i how how how long can it be held off a station ?
Marketing: How long the {disfmarker} how long the bit the batteries long .
User Interface: Ah . Ah . A long time .
Project Manager: Yeah . A long {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} No no no ,
Industrial Designer: Eight to ten eight to ten hours .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: it can {disfmarker} it should be weeks .
Industrial Designer: N most {disfmarker} no most of the time it's not being used .
Project Manager: Yeah , so it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah but y people don't like to put it back in the base station all the time people leave wanna leave it on the couch so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So when when you are making it on {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's used only when you {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm . Mm-hmm . No eight or eight or ten hours of working .
User Interface: Ah , okay .
Industrial Designer: If you are just leaving like that it'll be much longer .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah . F weeks .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . That's right .
Project Manager: Right . Next slide ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . And we are having the speakers regular chip for control . Pricing is {disfmarker} was a factor so that's why we have gone for a regular chip only not the advanced chip . And uh that's it .
Project Manager: Okay . {gap} Okay . Those really sounds very good .
Industrial Designer: That's right .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Nothing else to add ?
User Interface: It seems to be falling over .
Marketing: I l yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: I like I like it . Maybe the the thing that convince me the less is the {vocalsound} the multifunctional buttons . Looks a bit {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You want to have more functional buttons ?
Marketing: Looks a bit puzzled uh I dunno how to say {vocalsound} that .
Industrial Designer: You are not convinced .
Marketing: You {disfmarker} the the b the buttons change h h their function depending if y it's teletext or not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Not not many , we we want to keep it simple . So that this button fo is for teletext which is usually also the case , that usually there is a teletext button and once you press that , the channel buttons , they baco become the scrolling buttons .
Marketing: And the volume button will will become {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's up to you , means .
Project Manager: Well in fact b both will be {disfmarker} could be useful , navigating through teletext .
Industrial Designer: Now that {disfmarker} Means let's say this this can move the the larger digits and this can move the smaller digits .
User Interface: Or can move between positions in the in the number .
Industrial Designer: That's right .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: And what about people who want to use digits ? Butto real buttons ?
Project Manager: Wow .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . So there was there was a constraint that the surface area which we have on this banana on one side because of the shape .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So we are targeting a segment which is which is just very trendy kind of thing , they they don't care about the buttons any more . And anyway {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay . Because have you thought about configuration and all this kind of uh stuff ?
User Interface: It's all automatic .
Marketing: It's all automatic .
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Okay yeah it's fine .
Project Manager: Very good uh yeah {disfmarker}
Marketing: W we are living in a wonderful world . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} you th yeah .
User Interface: Uh . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Bananas everywhere .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Automatically configure {gap} . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So we have to go through now evaluations .
Industrial Designer: Evalua yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So your slides are ready ?
Marketing: S
Project Manager: Uh you're four I think .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So this is one , which one is this one ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay . I {vocalsound} I const I constructed a a list of criteria based on the on the general user requirements . And each criteria is {vocalsound} will be evaluated it's uh logical criteria so we must users must say i if it's true or is {disfmarker} or if it's false in a in a scale ranging from zero to seven .
Industrial Designer: Why this strange factor of seven ?
Marketing: Because i I'm sorry . Sorry .
Industrial Designer: Usually I have seen that scales are from one to ten .
Marketing: Ah yeah . It's from {disfmarker} sorry , it's from one to seven . It's from from one to seven sorry . Because it should be an even it should be an even uh scale ,
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Num number {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay . Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and five is too short and nine is too long .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I'm a I I'm {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay fine , got the idea .
Project Manager: So to have {disfmarker} in order to have enough granularity {disfmarker}
Marketing: Sorry ?
Project Manager: it's in order to have enough granularity in the evaluation .
Marketing: Yeah yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: The variance is mi it's is minimal .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay , okay , great .
Marketing: I'm um answering your question .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Yeah yeah .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Go ahead .
Marketing: {vocalsound} And that's the criteria I I found more useful . I think I sh I {vocalsound} I could write the criteria in the on the whiteboard ?
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Sure .
Marketing: And we all four could range
Industrial Designer: Okay . Yeah yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: could evaluate the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: So you can say fancy , handy . Handy .
Marketing: Okay let's let's evaluate if it's fancy or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's fancy , according to me .
Marketing: Seven but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , six .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: S seven .
Industrial Designer: Seven . Seven by me .
Project Manager: Six .
Marketing: I would say seven .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: It's quite fancy .
Industrial Designer: So you can add seven plus six plus seven plus {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No , wait .
User Interface: Yeah uh five .
Project Manager: What do you say seven ? Five ?
Industrial Designer: Five .
User Interface: Five , maybe maybe maybe six it's it's I guess it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , six point five .
User Interface: yeah .
Project Manager: Handy ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Again I'll give seven .
Project Manager: Seven .
User Interface: I'd give it a six like I'd I think it's probably more handy than my current remote , 'cause of the scroll wheels
Marketing: Six .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
User Interface: but maybe loses the point for not having you know the extra buttons when you reall if you do need them for some reason but you know you can always use your other remote .
Project Manager: So seven , seven ,
Industrial Designer: Seven for me .
Project Manager: six ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Six .
Project Manager: six point five . Functional . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I'll give five .
Project Manager: Four .
Marketing: I would say {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Well it depends when you say functional , do you mean it does what we want it to do , or d does what it does , you know , can it make you coffee ?
Marketing: Everything ar
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh for a remote control , does he have all the {gap}
User Interface: You know .
Marketing: Mm everything {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah . {gap}
Project Manager: you could expect .
Marketing: It's compared to the all
Industrial Designer: That's right .
Marketing: remote controls .
User Interface: That's before {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That's right . The standards . What is available in the market off the shelf .
User Interface: Yeah . I have to say four .
Marketing: Actually I don't know what are the r the real specification of a of a universal remote contro
User Interface: Well it's not a universal remote . Remember we're focus we're supposed to focus just on T_V_s .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We {disfmarker}
Marketing: Ah it's not an univer but it's for all kind of T_V_s ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Well all T_V_s but only T_ {disfmarker} only T_V_s I guess .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So it's universal but for T_V_s . {vocalsound} So s uh four ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Five .
Project Manager: Five ?
User Interface: Four .
Project Manager: Four .
Marketing: Four . Four .
Industrial Designer: So four point two ?
User Interface: Just four .
Project Manager: Four .
Industrial Designer: {gap} four . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Obviously there are some outliers so {disfmarker}
Marketing: So four ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay cool ? Cool device .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: There I'll give it seven .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It means cool features , like new features actually .
Industrial Designer: That's right .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Which {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: For a T_V_ the most important feature which I felt was the locator which is a cool feature . And then the scroll buttons are again cool features . We don't have L_C_D_ for it but that we decided we don't want to have .
Project Manager: Yeah . Seven .
Marketing: I would say five .
User Interface: I'll say five .
Project Manager: Six .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Seven .
Project Manager: Plus six , I say {disfmarker} I said seven .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So it's six .
User Interface: S yeah .
Marketing: You said seven ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: 'Cause it's five five seven seven so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Uh , okay , definitely easy to use .
Industrial Designer: Definitely seven .
User Interface: Seven .
Project Manager: Seven . Seven . And you ? Outl you are not lik outlier .
Marketing: Five . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Seven {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay okay okay okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: Sorry , I have them {disfmarker}
User Interface: Alright , now here's the sixty million Dollar question ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: well , twenty five twenty five Euro question .
Project Manager: Of course I'll buy the {gap} banana . {gap}
User Interface: What do you what do you guys reckon ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Of cour Of course the most difficult question for the end . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I'll say five .
User Interface: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: I'll say five .
Project Manager: Twenty five Euros . {vocalsound} Cheap .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I find it quite cheap {vocalsound} actually .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I dunno . If i i it depends , if you live in in Switzerland or you live in {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , so the target price is for all Europe , or only for rich countries ? {vocalsound} It's more targeting U_K_ or {disfmarker}
Marketing: I don't know . Wha the initial specifications were for the whole all Europe or {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So this is selling costs , not production costs .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah this is the the initial specifications .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah sure . Um {disfmarker} Five .
Marketing: I would say six . It's quite cheap actually .
User Interface: I'd say two .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Aw , should be nice in your {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Why ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} I don't want a banana on my {vocalsound} living room table , a banana remote .
Marketing: {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No but it's really handy actually if you see .
User Interface: It is handy , it's handy , but it it's terrible .
Industrial Designer: It's it's so handy . And then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's kitsch .
Industrial Designer: Anyb anybody who comes here {vocalsound} {disfmarker} anybody who comes to your home he'll at least ask once what is this .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah , but it's not a positive thing .
Industrial Designer: It's a very positive thing if you see like that {vocalsound} .
User Interface: Well , you know , it's it's handy , it's ergonomic , but it's a banana .
Project Manager: Well , don't forget well , don't for don't forget who we're targeting also who are f f who are wh
Industrial Designer: Youngsters .
Project Manager: yeah , youngst youngst
User Interface: Yeah but it says I , I would buy this , so .
Marketing: Actually maybe {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} yeah {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} if you would be young .
Marketing: Yeah {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Not telling that you are young . Li li like a teenager for instance .
User Interface: {vocalsound} No , it's I . I would buy {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay you're you're crazy teenager and you like fun things .
Industrial Designer: You want to flaunt .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker} with your girlfriend or something .
Project Manager: Yeah , you want to show the beautiful banana you have . {gap}
User Interface: S s
Industrial Designer: Or might be it does some other kind of thing but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Still I I'd say two . I don't think I {disfmarker} at any stage in my life I would want a banana remote control , really .
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah , crazy .
Project Manager: Okay so you s you give {disfmarker}
User Interface: I can say , maybe there is a market for it , I dunno .
Project Manager: oh yeah yeah I know I know .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So you say two .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I say five .
Project Manager: F I d I say five . You say ?
Marketing: I change the question . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So what's the new question ?
Industrial Designer: And you have saved it ?
Marketing: So yeah upload the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: You'll have to reload .
Project Manager: Uh yeah , I think so . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay , so , it depends if uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah it's two different situations . If you really need an universal remote control or if you would change your remote control for a n for a new one .
Project Manager: Yeah that's two different question .
User Interface: If I had t if I had to spend twenty five Euro , if that was like my limit , maybe I would buy it . Because the other twenty five Euro remote controls are probably gonna look
Project Manager: Ugly .
User Interface: worse than a banana . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: They're not going to be as {disfmarker} And they they might not be a as easy as this {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And it {disfmarker} yeah this is gonna f you know handy to use .
Industrial Designer: yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: So ? What now ? What range ?
Project Manager: I stick to five .
Industrial Designer: S
User Interface: Although it still has it still has the word of course at the beginning {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I go slightly up . Six .
Marketing: Six .
User Interface: so I dunno . Um .
Project Manager: W we have six , five {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I'd give it I'd give it a
Project Manager: Three {vocalsound}
User Interface: I give it a four now .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Six ? Six ?
Project Manager: So we are six , five , four {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Six , five , four .
Marketing: Six , so it's uh five point five , or less .
Project Manager: Yeah . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: So and last question , will I change my rem change my remote control from Mando banana . Um , zero . No uh we can't . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So one .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Actually yeah , I {disfmarker} we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well if {gap} .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: No uh let's say I'll put two .
User Interface: I'd say three , I mean my remote control is kinda {disfmarker} at home is pretty terrible . If it was {disfmarker} change my remote control of my D_V_D_ player for a Mando banana then I would be more inclined to
Project Manager: It's for the T_V_ .
User Interface: but uh {disfmarker} 'cause it's really bad but uh {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'd say a three . {gap}
Industrial Designer: I'll still give it five . Yeah .
Marketing: Five ?
Project Manager: Two three five two three fi and two .
Marketing: {gap} You are romantic , really .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So it's somewhere three point five I think .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I would say two .
Project Manager: So it's r Yeah , three point five . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Who is the outlier ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Wh wh {vocalsound} you said five ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No no you say five , he is the outlier .
Industrial Designer: No I said five .
Project Manager: Okay just just do a sum .
Marketing: I don't know if {vocalsound} it's a {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's not very promising but you know we're not young trendsetters . {vocalsound}
Marketing: No because there are more {disfmarker} yeah , we shouldn't sum like that .
Project Manager: Well maybe we should we should uh have a look globally glob
Marketing: Because the the last two questions is much more important than the rest actually .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Otherwise we wouldn't {disfmarker} we will not sell .
User Interface: Is there some some formula you're using that says you have to sum them up ?
Marketing: Uh no I didn't {gap} anything . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well just leave it at that then .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Oops .
Project Manager: So maybe maybe w we can we should stick to general feeling . We can had uh have a {disfmarker} out of these numbers , which which is that well we should go for it .
Marketing: Yeah , the uh {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Problem with connectors ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Do you want me to sum
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah it's it's funny . {vocalsound}
Marketing: o I think it's not {disfmarker}
User Interface: I think it it kind of you just lose information if you sum it , so .
Project Manager: Okay . So let's move uh let's move on .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , sure .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay , {gap} now now we have to mm to estimate {vocalsound} uh the cost okay . So I prepare an Excel sh uh an Excel sheet . Um well we are going to calculate the production costs . We should we should be below twelve point five . So I already uh put some pu some numbers here , okay . We are going to go through {vocalsound} {disfmarker} so this is the number the mm number of components we need for this thing . So it appears that there were things that we didn't thought about . Uh and also things that I uh I d I forget to uh to put like solar cells .
User Interface: Well we decided against the solar cells so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Oh yeah finally we say no .
Industrial Designer: Solar cells , yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah , we said no to that .
Project Manager: Okay so let's let's go let's go let go through all the lines . So hand dynamo . This something we didn't thought about . But {disfmarker}
User Interface: You mean , charging it by shaking the banana .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I think rechargeable batteries will take care of the power thing .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay so we we stick to battery , one .
Industrial Designer: To bring the cost {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: No kinetic also . I don't I don't see the difference between kinetic and dynamo .
User Interface: Well maybe dynamo is like you have to actually {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ah you have to {disfmarker} ah okay I see so kinetic is really uh shaking the banana .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: S
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Crazy . Okay . So those banana is falling . Let's go ahead . So we we st only have one for battery . Uh then for electronics um so I didn't put anything for the {gap} .
Industrial Designer: So we have the regular chip on the print , which is one .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And that's it .
Project Manager: Okay . No {disfmarker} so we hin
Industrial Designer: And we have sample speaker .
Project Manager: Yeah so one .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah . {gap} the cost of that is very high .
Project Manager: Ooh ye ye ye the cost is increasing . So we are {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well actually that that {disfmarker} no that sample speaker is not {disfmarker} we we're not using that , we're just using the the very beep {disfmarker} simple beep ,
Project Manager: The beep .
User Interface: that s that sample thing is like the voice recording and everything .
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh .
Project Manager: That's what {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay so I'll remove it .
User Interface: So {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: S
User Interface: I say that {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: So don't we need a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And we have sev
Project Manager: Oh there is no listing for r radio frequency thing .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So we we'll put some extras , if there is something .
Project Manager: Yeah maybe . We'll see later .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Okay so in {disfmarker} for the case um {vocalsound} I put single curved .
Industrial Designer: Okay . To reduce the cost , it's okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well , wait a second ,
Project Manager: Because we have two things .
User Interface: no , it's it's double curved , it's got a c , it's uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh it's got all the directions
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: so don't worry . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well d yeah it's monotonic {vocalsound} but
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's got a {gap} direction . {vocalsound}
User Interface: it's got {disfmarker} but if you hold it if you hold it that way that's two curved , one on this side , one on that side , but they're opposite sides .
Project Manager: Well . What a {disfmarker} what i if I put one here .
User Interface: This is actually {disfmarker} I mean this probably
Marketing: Actually what's the differen
User Interface: this probably actually costs more than three
Project Manager: Yeah so let's put one here in the {gap} then instead of single
User Interface: if you {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay . Okay .
Project Manager: oka all right .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So we stick to plastic , it cost nothing .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . That's right .
User Interface: Well {gap} {disfmarker} no didn't we say we wanted to do a rubber {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No , it's too {disfmarker} no .
User Interface: {gap} if you drop it ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Too expensive .
Project Manager: It's too expensive . We're already at eleven .
User Interface: Well when {disfmarker} okay . Well we we'll come back we'll come back and see if we can fit it in .
Project Manager: Okay so I put rubber one . Okay so special colour , yellow .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh for the interface we have {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We don't have any push buttons .
User Interface: No , we have two push buttons .
Project Manager: We have three .
Industrial Designer: No that is a scroll wheel itself , it'll be put in that .
User Interface: Huh .
Project Manager: No no . We have two scroll , and we have three push buttons .
Industrial Designer: Ah okay , okay .
User Interface: Uh .
Industrial Designer: Okay , okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay it's gonna have to be plastic .
Marketing: Actually whe whe when you wrote regular chip you should put two , because there is another chip here .
Project Manager: No it's {gap} no chip . This is just radio frequency {gap} . Th This is no chip .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah but
Industrial Designer: No . There's no chip there .
Marketing: you need {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It just emits the signal .
Project Manager: It's just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And the receiver accepts it and that's it .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Fo i it does nothing actually ?
Project Manager: No . Just {disfmarker} only {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Just se sends the signal , that's it .
User Interface: It's a recharger thing and uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay w we didn't think a thought about uh integrated scroll wheel push buttons .
User Interface: Well I actually did um think about it myself {vocalsound} but I thought you know {disfmarker} because you could potentially you know you could be pushing it down as you scroll it for a {disfmarker} instead of a turbo button
Project Manager: Yeah ,
User Interface: but you know the turbo button does add that extra class .
Project Manager: so {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: You know . So I mean if we're if we're over budget then maybe we could we could rethink that .
Project Manager: Okay . So no L_C_D_ , so for {disfmarker} we have no button supplements , right ?
Industrial Designer: Yep . No .
Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} well in fact could we could not we consider this button as a button supplement because {disfmarker} oh no , these are these are for colours , co and special forms , special colours and special materials .
User Interface: Yeah . No we're not {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: we don't need anything special for the buttons .
Project Manager: Okay so we are over budget .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . So first thing which we should take care of is ,
User Interface: Make it plastic instead of rubber .
Industrial Designer: instead of rubber , let it be plastic .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: And then we're basically o on budget except for you know ten cents .
Industrial Designer: And uh that much money will be required for the base station , which is not there .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: So mayb in fact n we have to put two here
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: because it cost nothing .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah well pl the base station is made out of m many units of {vocalsound} plastic .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's right .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So might be ninety centimes for the the remaining things which {disfmarker} the cord and everything which'll go {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Exactly exactly so we have margin for that stuff .
User Interface: Does that include charging circuitry and everything ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That's right .
Project Manager: Yeah maybe . Okay good . Wha
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Excellent .
User Interface: So what do we do with the extra profits ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um we'll invest in R_ and D_ .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} The next fruit .
Project Manager: Yeah . So well we're under the the the cost . So we can go to {disfmarker} through to project evaluation . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay so now we have a product which nobody would would buy . Would {disfmarker} yeah , would buy .
Project Manager: Sorry ?
User Interface: No we have a product which none of us would buy . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah because th th the evaluation project {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Which is different . Which is different . None of us will buy it .
User Interface: No it's people in in in Milan and uh in Paris that are gonna buy it .
Marketing: Ah would buy , yeah .
User Interface: We're n
Marketing: Massively , yeah .
User Interface: yeah . We're not in Milan or Paris .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . Okay . Uh you have been in Milan a couple of times , so .
Project Manager: This is a battery . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Actually there were a lot of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} And you said the lowest {gap} .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is what we {disfmarker} which you can mm {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: S Detachable battery .
Project Manager: It did {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: That's 'cause I'm sick of Milan .
Marketing: Yeah , for the batteries {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Extra battery , yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay so um {vocalsound} project process .
Project Manager: Exac {vocalsound} Well in fact I I did not know {vocalsound} I didn't know really what to say here .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} If uh if you have any ideas of what we can we can say . So I don't I don't I don't understand what what they mean by satisfaction um and for and for example .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Should it be more like um like a status of of the {disfmarker} these meetings in fact .
User Interface: {gap} Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah well in fact uh we we use a little bit the white board and the digital pen , not that much .
User Interface: I dunno I think we had a fair bit of creativity .
Project Manager: Oh yeah it's really creative .
User Interface: {vocalsound} And uh but I think one thing we m missed out of this whole process was a um {vocalsound} like a focus group with the actual people we're targeting .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: We needed some of these kind of young trendsetters to come in and play with the banana and you know see if they
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: They like that .
User Interface: see if they like it .
Project Manager: Yeah maybe we should go through , yeah an uh evaluation .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Because yeah the evaluation for us is is kind of pointless .
Industrial Designer: Biased .
Project Manager: So maybe you should we should do a kinda evaluation {vocalsound} in the streets like asking to young peoples well , do you like to have a banana as a remote control .
User Interface: Yeah . Because it it would also be interesting to uh you to know find out if we have a market in really young children as well , to see you know how to how to market this thing .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: 'Cause you know if {disfmarker} well I mean maybe you don't wanna give all your kids their own remote because they'll be changing the channel all the time but you know maybe in some households where there is you know a T_V_ for each kid , then you know , banana remote control could be fun for them as well .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Might have to draw a face on it . So but I think that's something we need to to work on next time is really finding out more about the target market .
Project Manager: Yep . Any any new ideas we could uh we could investigate next time ? Dunno , oranges ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah . The cost of the thing can be made more than might be . Because I think it's just the optimal , what we have done for the cost which we are looking forward to .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . I think there are ways we could maybe simplify the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Interface .
User Interface: Well just the the the circuit board that we're using inside ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I'm not sure really how complicated our um
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: our needs are . I mean all we have is two push buttons and two scrollers , do we really need an integrated circuit to
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: you know to process that .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So more general remote control instead of just focusing on uh on T_V_ .
Industrial Designer: That's right .
Marketing: The complexity shouldn't be much higher .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: For {disfmarker} you said if it good for D_V_D_ then I would {disfmarker}
User Interface: And also fo you know for mood lighting and and stuff , that would be rather cool . I think that's actually something that should be in version two , is the ability to you know to control things other than the T_V_
Industrial Designer: Integrate .
User Interface: and not just electronic equipment but you know the whole environment of the room .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} Very good . {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} What else ?
Project Manager: Well done . I think we we can go
Industrial Designer: Okay . Home ?
Project Manager: home .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Happily satisfied . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe maybe we can hassle the the production department to to make a a real prototype that we can use at home to to evaluate .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {gap} Okay so thanks very much .
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: Bye .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Thank you .
User Interface: Thank you .
Marketing: Bye . | |
doc_185 | Grad A: Why ?
Grad D: Um .
Grad E: I 'm known . I {disfmarker}
Grad A: No , cuz she already told me it , before she told you .
Grad E: No , she told me a long time ago . She told me {disfmarker} she told me like two weeks ago .
Grad A: Oh , well , it doesn't matter what time .
Grad B: OK . You know how to toggle the display width {pause} function {disfmarker}
Grad A: Well maybe she hadn't just started transcribing me yet .
Grad D: Wow .
Grad A: Anyway .
Grad D: What is it ?
Grad E: Let me explain something to you .
Grad D: Um ,
Grad E: My laugh is better than yours .
Grad D: there .
Grad A: I beg to differ .
Grad B: Yo .
Grad D: Um , OK .
Grad A: But you have to say something genuinely funny before you 'll get an example .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad D: The thing is I don't know how to get to the next page . Here .
Grad E: No . You should be {disfmarker} at least be self - satisfied enough to laugh at your own jokes .
Grad D: Actually I thought {disfmarker}
Grad A: No , it 's a different laugh .
Grad D: There .
Grad A: Ooh , wow !
Grad D: How weird .
Grad E: Oh ! Holy mackerel .
Grad A: Wow . Whoa !
Grad D: What ? ! Oh . OK . I wasn't even doing anything . {vocalsound} OK .
Grad A: Uh .
Grad E: Eva 's got a laptop , she 's trying to show it off .
Grad D: That was r actually Robert 's idea . But anyhow . Um
Professor F: O K . So , here we are .
Grad E: Once again .
Professor F: Once again , right , together . Um , so we haven't had a meeting for a while , and {disfmarker} and probably won't have one next week , I think a number of people are gone . Um , so Robert , why don't you bring us up to date on where we are with EDU ?
Grad B: Um , uh in a {disfmarker} in a smaller group we had uh , talked and decided about continuation of the data collection . So Fey 's time with us is almost officially over , and she brought us some thirty subjects and , t collected the data , and ten dialogues have been transcribed and can be looked at . If you 're interested in that , talk to me . Um , and we found another uh , cogsci student who 's interested in playing wizard for us . Here we 're gonna make it a little bit more complicated for the subjects , uh this round . She 's actually suggested to look um , at the psychology department students , because they have to partake in two experiments in order to fulfill some requirements . So they have to be subjected , {vocalsound} {comment} before they can actually graduate . And um , we want to design it so that they really have to think about having some time , two days , for example , to plan certain things and figure out which can be done at what time , and , um , sort of package the whole thing in a {disfmarker} in a re in a few more complicated um , structure . That 's for the data collection . As for SmartKom , I 'm {disfmarker} the last SmartKom meeting I mentioned that we have some problems with the synthesis , which as of this morning should be resolved . And , so ,
Professor F: Good .
Grad B: " should be " means they aren't yet , but {disfmarker} but I think I have the info now that I need . Plus , Johno and I are meeting tomorrow , so maybe uh uh , when tomorrow is over , we 're done . And ha n hav we 'll never have to look at it again Maybe it 'll take some more time , to be realistic , but at least we 're {disfmarker} we 're seeing the end of the tunnel there . That was that . Um , the uh , uh I don't think we need to discuss the formalism that 'll be done officially s once we 're done . Um , something happened , in {disfmarker} on Eva 's side with the PRM that we 're gonna look at today , and um , we have a visitor from Bruchsal from the International University . Andreas , I think you 've met everyone except Nancy .
Grad A: Sorry . Hi . Hi .
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad B: Hi . Hi .
Grad A: So when you said " Andreas " I thought you were talking about Stolcke .
Grad B: And , um ,
Grad A: Now I know that we aren't , OK .
Grad B: Andy , you actually go by Andy , right ? Oh , OK .
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad B: Eh {disfmarker}
Grad C: Cuz there is another Andreas around ,
Grad A: Hmm .
Grad C: so , to avoid some confusion .
Grad B: That will be {pause} Reuter ? Oh , OK .
Grad C: Yeah .
Grad B: So my scientific director of the EML is also the dean of the International University , one of his many occupations that just contributes to the fact that he is very occupied . And , um , the {disfmarker} um , he @ @ might tell us a little bit about what he 's actually doing , and why it is s somewhat related , and {disfmarker} by uh using maybe some of the same technologies that we are using . And um . Was that enough of an update ?
Professor F: I think so .
Grad B: In what order shall we proceed ?
Grad D: OK .
Grad B: Maybe you have your on - line {disfmarker}
Grad D: Uh , yeah , sure . Um , so , I 've be just been looking at , um , Ack ! What are you doing ? Yeah . OK . Um , I 've been looking at the PRM stuff . Um , so , this is , sort of like the latest thing I have on it , and I sorta constructed a couple of classes . Like , a user class , a site class , and {disfmarker} and you know , a time , a route , and then {disfmarker} and a query class . And I tried to simplify it down a little bit , so that I can actually um , look at it more . It 's the same paper that I gave to Jerry last time . Um , so basically I took out a lot of stuff , a lot of the decision nodes , and then tried to {disfmarker} The red lines on the , um , graph are the um , relations between the different um , classes . Like , a user has like , a query , and then , also has , you know um , reference slots to its preferences , um , the special needs and , you know , money , and the user interest . And so this is more or less similar to the flat Bayes - net that I have , you know , with the input nodes and all that . And {disfmarker} So I tried to construct the dependency models , and a lot of these stuff I got from the flat Bayes - net , and what they depend on , and it turns out , you know , the CPT 's are really big , if I do that , so I tried to see how I can do , um {disfmarker} put in the computational nodes in between . And what that would look like in a PRM . And so I ended up making several classes {disfmarker} Actually , you know , a class of {disfmarker} with different attributes that are the intermediate nodes , and one of them is like , time affordability money affordability , site availability , and the travel compatibility . And so some of these classes are {disfmarker} s some of these attributes only depend on stuff from , say , the user , or s f just from , I don't know , like the site . S like , um , these here , it 's only like , user , but , if you look at travel compatibility for each of these factors , you need to look at a pair of , you know , what the um , preference of the user is versus , you know , what type of an event it is , or you know , which form of transportation the user has and whether , you know , the onsite parking matters to the user , in that case . And that makes the scenario a little different in a PRM , because , um , then you have one - user objects and potentially you can have many different sites in {disfmarker} in mind . And so for each of the site you 'll come up with this rating , of travel compatibility . And , they all depend on the same users , but different sites , and that makes a {disfmarker} I 'm tr I w I wa have been trying to see whether the PRM would make it more efficient if we do inferencing like that . And so , I guess you end up having fewer number of nodes than in a flat Bayes - net , cuz otherwise you would {disfmarker} c well , it 's probably the same . But um , No , you would definitely have {disfmarker} be able to re - use , like , {vocalsound} um , all the user stuff , and not {disfmarker} not having to recompute a lot of the stuff , because it 's all from the user side . So if you changed sites , you {disfmarker} you can , you know , save some work on that . But , you know , in the case where , it depends on both the user and the site , then I 'm still having a hard time trying to see how um , using the PRM will help . Um , so anyhow , using those intermediate nodes then , this {disfmarker} this would be the class that represent the intermediate nodes . And that would {disfmarker} basically it 's just another class in the model , with , you know , references to the user and the site and the time . And then , after you group them together this {disfmarker} no the dependencies would {disfmarker} of the queries would be reduced to this . And so , you know , it 's easier to specify the CPT and all . Um , so I think that 's about as far as I 've gone on the PRM stuff .
Professor F: Well
Grad D: Right .
Professor F: No . So y you didn't yet tell us what the output is .
Grad D: The output .
Professor F: So what decisions does this make ?
Grad D: OK . So it only makes two decisions , in this model . And one is basically how desirable a site is meaning , um , how good it matches the needs of a user . And the other is the mode of the visit , whether th It 's the EVA decision . Um , so , instead of um , {vocalsound} doing a lot of , you know , computation about , you know , which one site it wants of {disfmarker} the user wants to visit , I 'll come {disfmarker} well , try to come up with like , sort of a list of sites . And for each site , you know , where {disfmarker} h how {disfmarker} how well it fits , and basically a rating of how well it fits and what to do with it . So . Anything else I missed ?
Professor F: So that was pretty quick . She 's ac uh uh Eva 's got a little write - up on it that uh , probably gives the {disfmarker} the details to anybody who needs them . Um , so the {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you didn't look at all yet to see if there 's anybody has a implementation .
Grad D: No , not yet , um {disfmarker}
Professor F: OK . So one {disfmarker} so one of the questions , you know , about these P R Ms is
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: uh , we aren't gonna build our own interpreter , so if {disfmarker} if we can't find one , then we uh , go off and do something else and wait until s one appears . Uh , so one of the things that Eva 's gonna do over the next few weeks is see if we can track that down . Uh , the people at Stanford write papers as if they had one , but , um , we 'll see . So w Anyway . So that 's a {disfmarker} a major open issue . If there is an interpreter , it looks like you know , what Eva 's got should run and we should be able to actually um , try to solve , you know , the problems , to actually take the data , and do it . Uh , and we 'll see . Uh , I actually think it is cleaner , and the ability to instantiate , you know , instance of people and sites and stuff , um , will help in the expression . Whether the inference gets any faster or not I don't know . Uh , it wouldn't surprise me if it {disfmarker} if it doesn't .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: You know , it 's the same kind of information . I think there are things that you can express this way which you can't express in a normal belief - net , uh , without going to some incredible hacking of {disfmarker} sort of rebuilding it on the fly . I mean , the notion of instantiating your el elements from the ontology and stuff fits this very nicely and doesn't fit very well into the extended belief - net . So that was one of the main reasons for doing it . Um . I don't know . So , uh , people who have thought about the problem , like Robert i it looked to me like if {comment} Eva were able to come up with a {vocalsound} you know , value for each of a number of uh , sites plus its EVA thing , that a travel planner should be able to take it from there . And {disfmarker} you know , with some other information about how much time the person has and whatever , and then plan a route .
Grad B: Um - hmm , um , {vocalsound} well , first of all uh , uh , great looks , mu much cleaner , nnn , nnn , Certain {disfmarker} certain beauty in it , so , um , if beauty is truth , then , uh we 're in good shape . But , the um , as , uh , mentioned before we probably should look at t the details . So if you have a write - up then uh , I 'd love to read it
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: and uh {disfmarker} because , um , i Can you go all the way back to the {disfmarker} the very top ?
Grad D: Yeah .
Grad B: Um , {vocalsound} uh these {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} these {disfmarker} w w when these are instantiated they take on the same values ? that we had before ?
Grad D: I can't really see the whole thing .
Grad B: or are they {disfmarker} have they changed , in a sense ?
Grad D: Well I think I basically leave them to similar things .
Grad B: Uh - huh .
Grad D: Some of the things might {disfmarker} that might be different , maybe like {disfmarker} are that the hours for the site .
Grad B: Hmm .
Grad D: And , eventually I meant that to mean whether they 're open at this hour or not .
Grad B: Uh - huh .
Grad D: And status would be , you know , more or less like , whether they 're under construction , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} or stuff like that .
Grad B: And the , uh , other question I would have is that presumably , from the way the Stanford people talk about it , you can put the probabilities also on the relations . If {disfmarker}
Grad D: Which is the structural uncertainty ?
Professor F: Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} That I think was actually in the previous {disfmarker} the Ubenth stuff . I don't remember whether they carried that over to this or not ,
Grad A: Mmm .
Professor F: uh , structural uncertainty .
Grad B: It 's sort of in the definition or {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in Daphne 's definition of a PRM is that classes and relations ,
Professor F: OK .
Grad B: and you 're gonna have CPT 's over the classes and their relations .
Professor F: Alright .
Grad B: More uncertainty , or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker}
Professor F: Uh ,
Grad B: I should say .
Grad D: I remember them learning when , you know , you don't know the structure for sure ,
Professor F: Yeah .
Grad D: but I don't remember reading how you specify
Grad B: Yeah , that would be exactly my question .
Professor F: Right .
Grad D: wh to start with . Yeah .
Grad B: Well {disfmarker}
Grad D: Yeah .
Professor F: Yeah . So , uh , the {disfmarker} the plan is {disfmarker} is when Daphne gets back , we 'll get in touch and supposedly , um , we 'll actually get s deep {disfmarker} seriously connected to {disfmarker} to their work and
Grad B: Yep .
Professor F: somebody 'll {disfmarker} Uh , you know {disfmarker} If it 's a group meeting once a week probably someone 'll go down and , whatever . So , we 'll actually figure all this out .
Grad B: OK . OK . Then I think the w {vocalsound} long term perspective is {disfmarker} is pretty clear . We get rocking and rolling on this again , once we get a package , if , when , and how , then this becomes foregrounded
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: profiled , focused , again .
Grad E: Designated ?
Grad A: Of course .
Grad B: And um , until then we 'll come up with a something that 's {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} that 's way more complicated for you . Right ?
Grad D: OK .
Grad B: Because this was laughingly easy , right ?
Grad D: Actually I had to take out a lot of the complicated stuff , cuz I {disfmarker} I made it really complicated in the beginning , and Jerry was like , {vocalsound} " this is just too much " .
Professor F: Yeah . So , um , you could , from this , go on and say suppose there 's a group of people traveling together and you wanted to plan something that somehow , with some Pareto optimal uh , {vocalsound} uh , thing for {disfmarker}
Grad A: That 's good . That 's definitely a job for artificial intelligence .
Professor F: uh , or {disfmarker}
Grad A: Except for humans can't really solve it either , so .
Grad B: Well that 's not {disfmarker} not even something humans {disfmarker} yeah .
Professor F: Right . Right . Well that 's the {disfmarker} that would {disfmarker} that would be a {disfmarker} uh , you could sell it , as a {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor F: OK , eh you don't have to fight about this , just give your preferences to the {disfmarker}
Grad A: And then you can blame the computer .
Professor F: w Exactly .
Grad A: So .
Grad B: Hmm . But what does it {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Would a pote potential result be to {disfmarker} to split up and never talk to each other again ? You know .
Grad A: That should be one of them .
Grad B: Yeah .
Professor F: Yeah . Right .
Grad E: That 'd be nice .
Grad A: Mmm .
Professor F: Anyway . So . So there i there are some {disfmarker} some u uh , you know , uh , elaborations of this that you could try to put in to this structure , but I don't think it 's worth it now . Because we 're gonna see what {disfmarker} what else uh {disfmarker} what else we 're gonna do . Anyway . But uh , it 's good , yeah and {disfmarker} and there were a couple other ideas of {disfmarker} of uh , things for Eva to look at in {disfmarker} in the interim .
Grad B: Good . Then , we can move on and see what Andreas has got out his sleeve . Or Andy , for that matter ?
Grad C: OK . So uh , uh , well , thanks for having me here , first of all . Um , so maybe just a {disfmarker} a little background on {disfmarker} on my visit . So , uh , I 'm not really involved in any project , that 's uh {disfmarker} that 's relevant to you uh , a at the moment , uh , the {disfmarker} the reason is really for me uh , to have an opportunity to talk to some other researchers in the field . And {disfmarker} and so I 'll just n sort of give you a real quick introduction to what I 'm working on , and um , I just hope that you have some comments or , maybe you 're interested in it to find out more , and {disfmarker} and so I 'll be uh , happy to talk to you and {disfmarker} and uh , I 'd also like to find out some more and {disfmarker} and maybe I 'll just walk around the office and and then {disfmarker} and ask some {disfmarker} some questions , uh , in a couple days . So I 'll be here for uh , tomorrow and then uh , the remainder of uh , next week . OK , so , um , what I started looking at , uh , to begin with is just uh , content management systems uh , i i in general . So um , uh what 's uh {disfmarker} Sort of the state of the art there is to um {disfmarker} uh you have a bunch of {disfmarker} of uh documents or learning units or learning objects , um , and you store meta - data uh , associate to them . So there 's some international standards like the I - triple - E , uh {disfmarker} There 's an I - triple - E , LON standard , and um , these fields are pretty straightforward , you have uh author information , you have uh , size information , format information and so on . Uh , but they 're two uh fields that are um , more interesting . One is uh you store keywords associated with the uh {disfmarker} with the document , and one is uh , you have sort of a , um , well , what is the document about ? So it 's some sort of taxonomic uh , ordering of {disfmarker} of the {disfmarker} of the units . Now , if you sort of put on your semantic glasses , uh you say , well that 's not all that easy , because there 's an implicit um , uh , assumption behind that is that uh , all the users of this system share the same interpretation of the keyword and the same interpretation of uh , whichever taxonomy is used , and uh , I think that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a very {disfmarker} that 's a key point of these systems and they sort of always brush over this real quickly without really elaborating much of that and uh {disfmarker} As a matter of fact , the only thing that m apparently really works out so far are library ordering codes , which are very , very coarse grain , so you have some like , science , biology , and then {disfmarker} But that 's really all that we have at the moment . So I think there 's a huge , um , uh need for improvement there . Now , what this uh {disfmarker} a standard like this would give us is we could um , sort of uh with a search engine just query uh , different repositories all over the world . But we can't really {disfmarker} Um , so what I 'm {disfmarker} what I try to do is um , to have um , uh {disfmarker} So . So the scenario is the following , you you 're working on some sort of project and you encounter a certain problem . Now , what {disfmarker} what we have at our university quite a bit is that uh , students um , try to u program a certain assignment , for example , they always run into the same problems , uh , and they always come running to us , and they 'll say why 's it not {disfmarker} it 's not working , and we always give out the same answer , so we thought , well , it 'd be nice to have a system that could sort of take care of this , and so , what I want to build is basically a {disfmarker} a smart F A Q system . Now , what you uh need to do here is you need to provide some context information which is more elaborate than " I 'm looking for this and this and this keyword . " So . And I think that I don't need to tell you this . I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sure you have the same {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when somebody utters a sentence in a certain , uh , context it , and {disfmarker} and the same sentence in another context makes a huge difference . So , I want to be able to model information like , um , so in the {disfmarker} in the context of {disfmarker} in the context of developing distributed systems , of a at a computer science school , um , what kind of software is the person using , which homework assignment is he or she working on at the moment , um , maybe what 's the background of that student 's um , which um , which error message was encountered . So this sort of information I think should be transmitted , uh , when a certain document is retrieved . Now , um , basically giving this um {disfmarker} Uh so we somehow need to have a formalized um , way of writing this down basically , and that 's where the shared interpretation of {disfmarker} of certain terms and keywords comes in again . And , using this and some {disfmarker} some uh , knowledge about the domain I think you can do some {disfmarker} some simple inferences . Like you know that when somebody 's working about {disfmarker} uh , working on {disfmarker} on servlets for example , he 's using Java , cuz servlets are used {disfmarker} are written in Java . So some {disfmarker} some inferences like that , now , um , u using this you can infer more information , and you could then match this to the meta - data of um {disfmarker} off the documents you 're {disfmarker} you 're searching against . So , uh what I wanna do is basically have some sort of um {disfmarker} given these inputs , and then I can compute how many documents match , and use this as a metric in the search . Now , what I plan to do is I want to uh sort of do a uh {disfmarker} uh {pause} try to improve the quality of the search results , and I want to do this by having a depth uh , um , um {disfmarker} steepest descent approach . So if I knew which operating system the person was working on , would this improve my search result ? And {disfmarker} and having uh , uh a symbolic formalized model of this I could simply compute that , and find out which um {disfmarker} which questions are worth um , asking . And that 's what I then propagate back to the user , and {disfmarker} and sort of try to optimize the search in this way . Now , the big problem that I 'm facing right now is um , it 's fairly easy to hack up a system uh quickly , that {disfmarker} that works in the small domain , but the problem is obviously the scalability . And uh uh , so Robert was mentioning uh , earlier today is that uh , Microsoft for example with their printer set up program has a Bayesian network , which does exactly this , but there you face a problem that these are very hard to extend . And so , uh what I 'm {disfmarker} What I try to do is basically try to model this uh , in a way that you could really combine uh , knowledge from very different sources , and {disfmarker} and um , sort of looking into some of the ideas that the semantic web community uh , came up with . Trying to {disfmarker} to have uh , an approach how to integrate s uh certain uh {disfmarker} representation of certain concepts and also some computational rules , um , what you can do with those . Um . What I 'm also looking into is a probabilistic approach into this because document retrievals is a very fuzzy procedure , so it 's probably not that easy to simply have a symbolic uh , computational model . That {disfmarker} that probably isn't expressive enough . So . So that 's another thing , um , which I think you 're also uh , uh looking into right now . And then um , uh sort of as an add - on to this whole idea , um , uh that would be now , depending on what the search engine or the content repository {disfmarker} depending on which {disfmarker} um , uh , which uh , rules and which ontologies it {disfmarker} it uses , or basically its view of the world , uh you can get very different results . So it might ma make a lot of sense to actually query a lot of different search engines . And there you could have an idea where you actually have sort of a {disfmarker} a peer to peer approach , where we 're all sort of carrying around our individual bookshelves , and um , if you have a question about a homework , it 's {disfmarker} probably makes sense to ask somebody who 's in your class with you , sort of the guru in the certain area , rather than going to some Yahoo - like uh , search engine . So these are some of the {disfmarker} just in a nutshell , some of the ideas . And I think a lot of the {disfmarker} even though it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a very different domain , but I think a lot of the , um , issues are {disfmarker} are fairly similar . So . OK .
Grad A: And so some of the {disfmarker} I don't know how much you know about the larger Heidelberg project , I {disfmarker} Are you {disfmarker}
Grad C: Uh I know , yeah I know abou about it .
Grad A: So it seems like a lot of {disfmarker} some of the issues are the same . It 's like , um , you know , the c context - based factors that influence how you interpret ,
Grad C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad A: um , s how to interpret . In {disfmarker} in this case , infer in in knowing {disfmarker} wanting to know what kinds of things to ask . We - we 've kind of talked about that , but we haven't worried too much about that end of the discourse .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: But maybe you guys had that in the previous models .
Grad B: Well , in a {disfmarker} in one {disfmarker} t one s mmm , small difference in a {disfmarker} in a way , is that he doesn't have to come up with an answer , but he wants to point to the places w w
Grad A: Documents that have the answers .
Grad C: Yeah , so . So I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm not {disfmarker} I 'm not building an expert {disfmarker}
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Uh , I want to build a smart librarian , basically
Grad A: Right . Right .
Grad C: that can point you to the right reference . I don't wanna compute the answer , so it 's a little bit easier for me .
Grad B: Well . Uh , you have to s still m understand what the content says about itself , and then match it to what you think the informational needs {disfmarker}
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: So you also don't have to figure out what the content is . You 're just taking the keywords as a topic text , as {disfmarker}
Grad C: I {disfmarker} I assume that {disfmarker} that the there will be learning systems that {disfmarker} that tag their {disfmarker} their content .
Grad A: OK . Right .
Grad C: And um , um , m @ @ and basically what I {disfmarker} what I envision is that you {disfmarker} rather than just supplying a bunch of keywords you could basically {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for an FAQ for example you could state sort of like a logic condition , when this document applies . So " this document explains how to set up your uh , mail account on Linux " or something like this .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad C: So . So something {disfmarker} something very specific that you can then {disfmarker} But the {disfmarker} I think that the key point with these uh , learning systems is that uh , a learning system is only as good as uh the amount of content it {disfmarker} it carries .
Grad A: Mmm , mm - hmm .
Grad C: You can have the best learning system with the best search interface , if there 's no content inside of it , it 's not very useful . So I think ultimately because um , uh developing these {disfmarker} these rules and these inference uh {disfmarker} inferences I think is very costly , so um , uh I think you must be able to reuse some {disfmarker} some existing um , domain {disfmarker} domain information , or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or ontologies that {disfmarker} that uh other people wrote and then try to integrate them , and then also search the entire web basically , rather than just the small uh , content management system .
Grad A: OK . Mm - hmm .
Grad C: So I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's crucial for {disfmarker} for the success of {disfmarker} or @ @ {disfmarker}
Grad A: So , you 're not {disfmarker} I guess I 'm trying to figure out how {disfmarker} how it maps to the kinds of things that we 've talked about in this group , and , actually associated groups ,
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: cuz some of us do pretty detailed linguistic analyses , and I 'm guessing that you {disfmarker} you won't be doing that ? OK .
Grad C: No .
Grad A: Just checking . So , {vocalsound} OK .
Grad B: Hmm .
Grad C: No .
Grad A: So , you take the query , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}
Professor F: On the other hand , uh , FrameNet could well be useful . So do you know the FrameNet story ?
Grad C: Um , yeah . Uh , not {disfmarker} not too much ,
Professor F: OK .
Grad C: but uh ,
Professor F: Oh . Th - that 's another thing you might wanna look into while you 're here .
Grad C: I have a rough overview .
Professor F: Because , um , you know , the standard story is that keyworks {disfmarker} keywords evoke frames , and the frames may well give you additional keywords or uh , if you know that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that a {disfmarker} a bunch of keywords uh , indicate a frame , then you can find documents that actually have the whole frame , rather th than just uh , individual {disfmarker}
Grad C: Mmm . Mmm .
Professor F: So there 's a lot of stuff , and people are looking at that . Most of the work here is just trying to get the frames right . There 's linguists and stuff and there 's a lot of it and they 're {disfmarker} they 're busily working away . But there are some application efforts trying to exploit it . And this looks t it seems to be that this is a place where you might be able to do that .
Grad C: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . I 'm sure I could learn a lot about um , yeah , just how to {disfmarker} how to come up with these structures ,
Grad A: Mmm .
Grad C: cuz it 's {disfmarker} it 's very easy to whip up something quickly , but it maybe then makes sense to {disfmarker} to me , but not to anybody else , and {disfmarker} and if we want to share and integrate things , they must {disfmarker} well , they must be well designed really .
Grad B: Remember the uh , Prashant story ?
Professor F: Right .
Grad B: The absolutely no {disfmarker} no linguistic background person that the IU sent over here .
Professor F: Right .
Grad B: And Andreas and I tried to come up wi or we had come up actually with a eh {disfmarker} with him working on an interface for FrameNet , as it was back then , that would p do some of the work for this machine ,
Professor F: Right . Yeah .
Grad B: which uh , never got done because Prashant found a happy occupation
Professor F: W yeah , I know , I mean it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} w he did w what {disfmarker} what he did was much more s sensible for him .
Grad B: which in the {disfmarker} Absolutely . Yeah .
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Grad B: But so {disfmarker} I 'm just saying , the uh , we had that idea
Professor F: you know {disfmarker} Yeah . The idea was there . Yeah , OK .
Grad B: uh to {disfmarker} to exploit FrameNet there as well .
Professor F: Yeah .
Grad A: Hmm .
Grad B: And um .
Professor F: Yeah , actually you guys never {disfmarker}
Grad B: And Srini 's doing information extraction also , right ?
Professor F: Right .
Grad B: with that FrameNet base .
Grad C: Mmm .
Professor F: Yeah .
Grad B: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: So you {disfmarker} you guys never sent anybody else from I U .
Grad C: Except {disfmarker} except Prashant ?
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Professor F: Uh , this was supposedly an exchange program , and {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} you know , it 's fine . We don't care , but it just {disfmarker} I 'm a little surprised that uh , Andreas didn't come up with anyone else he wanted to send .
Grad A: Hmm .
Grad C: Uh I don't know , I mean the uh {disfmarker}
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Grad B: Uh it 's in the program ?
Grad C: Uh I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's really the lack of students uh , at IU at the moment .
Professor F: Yeah . Yeah . No , no . There was a whole co There was a little contract signed . It was {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad C: Yeah , yeah . I think it 's ju it 's more the lack of {disfmarker} of students , really , and w we have all these sponsors that are always sort of eager to get some teams .
Professor F: Yeah , I know .
Grad A: Mmm .
Professor F: Right .
Grad C: But {disfmarker}
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Grad C: Well I mean if {disfmarker} if I were a student , I 'd love to come here , rather than work for some German {vocalsound} {nonvocalsound} company , or {disfmarker}
Professor F: Yeah . Right .
Grad B: You are being recorded right now , so beware .
Professor F: Oh , right !
Grad C: Well , I didn't say anybody to {disfmarker} anything to offend {disfmarker} well , except for the sponsors maybe , but {disfmarker}
Professor F: Right . Anyway . Right . So I thi tha that 's {disfmarker} that 's one of the things that might be worth looking into while you 're here .
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: Uh , unfortunately , Srini , who is heavily involved in DAML and all this sort of stuff is himself out of town .
Grad C: Mm - hmm . Well I 'll go to the uh , Semantic Web Workshop , uh , in two weeks .
Professor F: Right , and {disfmarker} Yeah , for {disfmarker} for some reason he 's not doing that .
Grad A: Yeah . Well , he had other things to do .
Professor F: I don't know why he @ @ {disfmarker} oh , I , who knows ?
Grad A: The uh {disfmarker}
Professor F: Anyway , s yeah , you 'll see {disfmarker} you 'll certainly see a lot of the people there .
Grad A: The other person I thought of is Dan Gildea ? because he did some work on topic spotting
Professor F: Yeah . St - statistical stuff . That would be a very good idea .
Grad A: w um , which is , I mean , you {disfmarker} I mean . I don't {disfmarker} Depending on how well you wanna integrate with that end ,
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: you know , like , taking the data and fig you said the learning systems that figure out {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} There 's someone in ICSI who actually has been working on {disfmarker} has worked on that kinda stuff , and he 's worked with frame net , so you could talk to him about , you know , both of those things at once .
Grad C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad A: So . And he just finished writing a draft of his thesis . So . I u {vocalsound} Dan Gildea , GILDEA .
Grad C: So , uh , who is that again ?
Grad A: And , he 's in one of the rooms on the fifth floor and stuff ,
Grad B: Who ? I can take you to his office .
Grad A: and {disfmarker}
Grad B: It 's just around the corner .
Grad C: OK , great .
Grad A: Hmm . Well , if you fal solve the problem , {vocalsound} hope you can do one for us too .
Professor F: Alright , was there anything else for this ? One of these times soon we 're gonna hear about construal .
Grad B: Yeah . I 'm sure . I have um {disfmarker} I think it was November two thousand three or some {disfmarker} No . Wh - I had something in my calendar .
Professor F: Oh , OK . Right .
Grad B: Um ,
Grad E: Wait a second . That 's a long way away .
Professor F: Good thinking !
Grad B: Uh well , maybe I can {disfmarker} I can bribe my way out of this . So . So I did some double checking and it seems like spring break in two thousand {vocalsound} one .
Grad A: Talk about changing the topic .
Grad B: No .
Professor F: Well , no , but he 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} as you said , he 's , like the state legislature , he 's trying to offer us bribes .
Grad A: At least this is a private meeting . Right , exactly , OK , that 's the link .
Grad B: This uh {disfmarker} Oh , they refused the budget again ? Is it {disfmarker} so about CITRIS ? Yeah , still nothing .
Professor F: Uh , this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} t the s we 're , uh , involved in a literally three hundred million dollar uh , program . Uh , with the State of California . And , the State of California is now a month and a half behind its legis its legally required date to approve a budget . So the budget has not been approved . And two days ago {disfmarker} There 's two l you know , so , two branches of legislature . One branch approved it ,
Grad C: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: and , um , yesterdayday {comment} there was this uh {disfmarker} uh I thought that the other branch would just approve it , but now there 's actually a little back sliding to people who {disfmarker} who approved it got flak from there , eh anyway . So , um {disfmarker} Oh ! I have to tell you a wonderful story about this , OK ? And then we 'll go . So , I {disfmarker} it turns out I wound up having lunch today with a guy named Tom Kalil . KILL {disfmarker} KALIL . And , uh , he now works at Berkeley . In fact he 's hired to run a lot of CITRIS , even though we don't have the money they {disfmarker} So they 've been hiring people right and left , so , uh , they think the money 's coming . So {disfmarker} and he was , I think , the chief staffer to Clinton on technology matters . He was in the White House , I don't remember what he was saying . A anyway , like that . And , is now doing all the politics for CITRIS , but also , has a uh , a lot of interest in uh , actually doing things for society , so digital divide and stuff like that . So that 's s interesting to me but maybe not to you . But the really interesting thing was , he st he s he s said something about , you know I 'm interested in things that have high social multiplier , something that is of great social value . He said , " for example " , this was his only example , " if you had a adult literacy program that was as good as an individual tutor , and as compelling as a video game , then that would have a huge social impact " . I said , " Oh great ! That 's a good problem to work on . " Anyway . So it was nice that uh , he 's got this view , of A , that 's what you should try to do , and B , uh , language would be a good way to do it .
Grad A: Mmm . Definitely .
Professor F: So that 's {disfmarker} So anyway , that 's the end of the story .
Grad A: But for adults and not for the children .
Professor F: This was {disfmarker} Yeah . I didn't push him on the ch on the child thing ,
Grad A: Uh - huh .
Professor F: but , uh , you know , a again , if {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker} if you
Grad A: Oh .
Professor F: um , and this was {disfmarker} this was literacy , which actually is somewhat different problem .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: Maybe easier . I don't know . So this is reading , rather than teaching {disfmarker} Another project we started on , and {disfmarker} and didn't get funded for was , uh , to try to build an automatic tutoring program , for kids whose first language wasn't English . Which is like half the school population in California . Something like that ,
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: isn't it ? Yeah . So , enormous problem in California , and the idea was if we 're so smart about language understanding and speech understanding , couldn't we build {vocalsound} uh , programs that would be tutors for the kids . We think we could . Anyway . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} But this is a slightly different problem ,
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor F: and um , I know none of us have the spare time to look at it right now , but it i it 's {disfmarker} it 's interesting and I may um , talk to him some more about is em somebody already doing this , and stuff like that . So anyway , that was {disfmarker} that was today 's little story .
Grad E: Hmm .
Grad B: OK . So I {disfmarker} I did manage to get {disfmarker} pull my head out of the sling by sidetracking into CITRIS ,
Professor F: No , no .
Grad B: but uh or {disfmarker} a temporarily putting it out of the sling
Professor F: Right .
Grad B: but , I {disfmarker} I 'll volunteer to put it right back in by stating that I am n uh among some other things in the process of writing up stuff that we have been discussing at our daily meetings ,
Professor F: Yeah .
Grad B: and also revising , thanks for all the comments , the c the original construal proposal . And , if I put one and one together , I may end up with a number that 's greater than one and that I {disfmarker} I can potentially present once you get back .
Grad A: Greater than two ?
Professor F: You 're good .
Grad B: Nnn . {comment} s sometimes , you know the sum is not uh less than the {disfmarker}
Grad A: Uh , right , right .
Professor F: Right . Right . Anyway . Yeah , so {disfmarker} OK , so that 'd be great , but I 'd {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's time again , right ?
Grad B: Absolutely . Yeah .
Professor F: Yeah . OK .
Grad B: But um , and hopefully all sidetracking um , other things will have disappeared , soon .
Professor F: Good . Yep . Done ? | |
doc_186 | Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Michelle Brown and Jack Sargeant; there are no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. We'll move on, then, to item 2, which is our scrutiny of the 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' draft strategy, and I'm very pleased to welcome Dr Frank Atherton, the Chief Medical Officer for Wales, and Nathan Cook, who is the head of the healthy and active branch at Welsh Government. Thank you, both, for attending this morning. We're very much looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking about the fact that 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' is an all-age strategy, really, and how confident you are that it will deliver for children and young people.
Dr Frank Atherton: Well, we're very confident. I mean, it has to, quite clearly. We do need to think about the present generation, the problems faced by the current generation. We have high prevalence of overweight and obesity among adults—we know that, and we can't walk away from that because that's translating into demand on health services. But we have to take a focus, a future generation's focus, almost, on the next generation. I don't write off the current generation, we can't afford to do that, but we do need to think about what can we do that would be different for the next generation so that they don't get into the sorts of problems that we're currently seeing with overweight and obesity. We know that the consequences of that for our young people are going to be enormous if we don't do something and something quite soon. We know that overweight children go on to become overweight adults, unfortunately, and that brings all the consequences of multiple disease issues—diabetes is often cited—cancer risk et cetera. So, we have to focus on children, and, in fact, during the consultation, we've been very clear that we need to engage with children and young people as well. Perhaps we'll get into that at some point, Chair, but, yes, I can give you that assurance.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. What my follow-up question, really, is: can you just tell us what kind of engagement you've had with children and young people to inform the draft strategy?
Dr Frank Atherton: Well, Nathan may be able to influence some of the detail, but in broad terms, we have discussed with young people in a number of fora. In fact, I was delighted that we had a young person, Evie Morgan, a schoolgirl from mid Wales, who came to the joint launch on the consultation. She met the Minister there and gave a very good personal account of her views on obesity and overweight. We've been visiting a number of schools during the consultation process. I'm visiting a school, either this week or next week, at Treorchy, to talk with teachers and young people there. Obviously, we're hopeful that schools and young people will contribute to the consultation as well. So, we've had quite good input, I would say, from children and young people. There is always more we can do we and we want to hear those voices.
Nathan Cook: I was going to say, we've also had a session with youth ambassadors as well, and what we've actually produced for the consultation is not just the children and young people's version, but also a toolkit in terms of getting schools really engaged and involved in terms of the work that we want them to do to feed into this as well. So, we've already had some really good responses from a lot of youth group and schools already.
Lynne Neagle AM: And you've got a structured programme, have you, to roll that out? Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now on leadership, and the first questions are from Siân Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning. I'll be speaking in Welsh. The Minister for health said yesterday, in answering a question from me on the Chamber floor, that you gave him advice not to have a target in terms of reducing obesity among children. Could you confirm that that's what your advice was and tell us why you don't think that a target is needed?
Dr Frank Atherton: My advice was not that we don't need a target—we may well need a target, and that's one of the issues we need to consult on—but that the target that had been adopted in England and in Scotland to halve the prevalence of obesity in children was more aspirational than deliverable, and that if we are to choose a target in Wales, then we need to balance deliverability with challenge. We need a challenging environment. So, there is something about performance management, because I would be looking to not just the health system but the health and care system and to public services boards to think about how they're delivering on this, and I think we can use targets to that. But they are one tool in the box that I would think we could use, and part of the consultation is to ask that question—'If we are to go down a route in Wales of choosing a target, what might that look like?'
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. So, to be clear, you're not ruling out that maybe we would need a target.
Dr Frank Atherton: It's certainly something that we could consider in terms of the final strategy.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And is that your opinion too?
Nathan Cook: Yes.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Well, that is contrary to what I was told yesterday on the floor of the Chamber by the Minister, but there we go. I'm glad to hear that you're not ruling out having a target, because without a target, without something to aim for, how do we know that we're getting there?
Dr Frank Atherton: I think your point about evaluation is really important. Whatever we produce at the end of this process—and we're looking to produce a final strategy towards the autumn—we do need to have a strong evaluation. So, some metrics in there, it would seem, would be appropriate, but what those are, what the nature of those are, do we frame them as targets or ambitions—that's the point we need to consult on.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. And the other point, of course, is the investment. If the Government is going to be successful in terms of the aim of reducing childhood obesity, then it needs to fund and support the actions. Have you made an assessment of the level of investment needed to implement this plan?
Dr Frank Atherton: Resourcing will be important. We currently do make investments in a number of areas that relate to child health generally, and, of course, obesity and overweight in particular. So, the question of resourcing is important. Now, we can't quantify an absolute amount of resource that will be needed to deliver until we know exactly what's going to come out of the consultation and what actions we might want to deliver to a greater degree in Wales. A figure of £8 million to £10 million a year has been banded around as a broad kind of area of what we might need to invest, but that would need to be drawn from existing programmes. We need to look at existing programmes, how effective they are. Can we make them more effective? Can we get better value from them? And there may well be a case for new investment, and that's a question, of course, that would need to be discussed with Ministers when we're producing the final strategy.
Nathan Cook: But I think a key consideration as well is we already know there is investment across health boards in some kind of obesity-related services. So, I think what we really need to think about across Wales is how we can drive greater scale, how we can look at current programmes in terms of making sure that they're better evaluated, and how we can make sure that we're also drawing up on the existing resources and capacity out there as well.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And does the level of investment depend on what the target is—what the goal is?
Dr Frank Atherton: I don't think you can necessarily just link the two. The issue of resourcing is one that's there irrespective of whether we choose to put a target in place.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But how would we know that it's being used effectively if there isn't something to aim for?
Dr Frank Atherton: Which brings you back to the question about evaluation. We need proper evaluation of the various programmes that we have.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, but without a target, how can you properly evaluate? If you don't know what you're trying to do, how can you properly evaluate? Anyway, you're open to suggestions about having a target, which is great. Would you agree that Government could use the revenue that's being produced through the levy on soft drinks towards some of these efforts to—?
Dr Frank Atherton: Well, of course, there are some consequentials that are coming to the Welsh Government as part of the levy on sugary soft drinks. That funding, of course, is less than we had anticipated, and that reflects, actually, a success story because industry is reformulating, and so the amount of sugar in soft drinks is already starting to decrease, which is a good thing. But to your question: should we use the funding? Well, of course we should use funding. I'm not personally in favour of hypothecation, I think I'm more interested in the totality of resource that goes into public health programmes than into marginal resource. There are, of course, a number of initiatives that we currently fund through the general revenue. And when I think about obesity, I don't just think about the relatively small marginal amounts of money that come in through whatever source, but I think about the totality of the £7 billion we spend in health and social care and how we can divert and channel some of that towards broad prevention initiatives in general, and towards tackling being overweight and obesity in particular.
Sian Gwenllian AM: You're saying that it's less than expected. Could you give us any kind of figure?
Dr Frank Atherton: I'm sorry, could you repeat the question?
Sian Gwenllian AM: You say that there is less money that's come in through these consequentials from the levy, can you mention some sort of figure?
Dr Frank Atherton: The figure that I have in mind is about £56 million that's coming in in terms of revenue over a two-year period. But I'd have to confirm that with the committee. What the anticipated—. When the sugar levy was first brought in, there was some modelling at UK level about what level of revenue that would bring, but it was based on the amount of sugar that was currently then in drinks and the fact that the sugar has reduced in drinks, I mean, the total amount available to the UK is less and hence our consequentials are less. Nathan may have some precise figures.
Nathan Cook: Yes, I was going to say, there was a mid-year report done where the levy has raised £150 million to date since coming into force in April, and the original forecast was £520 million a year. So, I think that shows the amount of work that's been done by industry around reformulation.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And the consequentials of that? That is the consequential—£150 million.
Nathan Cook: On a UK level.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, so what's the Welsh consequential?
Lynne Neagle AM: Fifty-six.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Fifty-six? Gosh, that sounds a lot. Anyway, it's a good sum of money and you're talking about investing £8 million to £10 million. So, obviously, you know, we can be more ambitious because there is money in that pot if that money was ring-fenced for this particular scheme.
Dr Frank Atherton: Well, the resource is going to be a real issue that we need to address, and I think as Nathan has said, there is funding of various initiatives currently in the system, and we need to look at that and make that as effective as possible. Will there be a need for some additional resource? There may well be, and that's a question that we'll have to look at in terms of the strategy when we develop it and have a discussion with Ministers about the level of resourcing.
Lynne Neagle AM: Can I just ask on that before Siân moves on? What assessment have you made of how that money is being spent in other UK nations? Because my understanding is that the money is being used in other UK nations to directly impact on obesity. Have you given any consideration to—? As I understand it, that money now is being dispersed around a plethora of programmes, including the transformation programme, and what I found very odd, really, was vaccination, which is surely the core business of the NHS. Have you got any view on that?
Dr Frank Atherton: I'm not sure I understand your point, Chair, in terms of the link between the consequentials from—. Are you talking about the consequentials from the sugar levy or are you talking about—?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, because in other nations, it is being used to directly impact on initiatives to tackle obesity, whereas, we've kind of put it here in Wales into the general pot and it's being used to fund a plethora of different things.
Dr Frank Atherton: Well, that cuts to what I was talking about. My preference—it's a personal view—is that hypothecation doesn't really help us too much. I mean, what we need to look at is whether the programmes, the sorts of programmes that are being funded in England, or indeed in Scotland, are working effectively, and if they are, are they being delivered here in Wales? We have looked very carefully at the plans that England and Scotland have for tackling obesity and overweight, and we've made a comparison with what we're doing in Wales, and our ambition in Wales is to go further than those nations, in many ways. But I come back to the point that just linking the hypothecation of a relatively small amount of resource is likely to be less impactful than asking a question of public services boards and of the health system, indeed, about how much money, overall, are we putting into prevention.
Lynne Neagle AM: No, I recognise that, and I think we're talking about additional resource. Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: I was just wondering whether you thought that there was a useful psychological link on the part of the public between saying, 'Here's a sugar levy', and 'It's going to be used to help children and adults stay healthier.' Going into a pot, it actually makes it quite difficult to explain the purpose of the tax in the first place. So, I take your overall point, but in terms of the people who we're trying to help in all this, actually creating a direct link might be quite helpful.
Dr Frank Atherton: You may be right. I'm not a behavioural psychologist. We'd have to ask—
Suzy Davies AM: Neither am I. I'm a person who eats a lot of sugar. [Laughter.]
Dr Frank Atherton: Your point's taken.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thanks. Siân.
Sian Gwenllian AM: The last question from me, about partnership working. You're putting an emphasis on the whole-system approach in implementing the plan, how are you going to create a system that co-ordinates action and drives change across relevant partners, avoiding a situation where it's everyone's role, but nobody's responsibility? How are you going to avoid that?
Dr Frank Atherton: It's a very important question, and one of the four strands in the consultation is exactly related to that, around leadership and drive nationally. I'm not interested in producing a strategy that sits on a shelf. If you look around the world, there are plenty of obesity strategies. You may notice, by the way, that we've chosen not to talk about an obesity strategy but a healthy weight strategy, because I think having a positive construct is really quite important to us here in Wales. But leadership will be really important, and we will need some sort of structure to lead this, to provide oversight. I'm not a great believer in creating new structures, so we do need something that will give that drive, but the leadership comes from the top down. We need political commitment to this, and that's why I welcome the input from this committee. So, that needs to be assured. And then we need to make sure that the public sector generally is engaged in this, but it goes way beyond the public sector, of course, because we have to work with industry, and we have to work with communities, and we have to work with the public on this. So we need to think about our governance system for this and how we drive it forward. Interestingly, we had quite a large discussion two days ago between health and social care, but also involving the third sector and some members of the public, around how can we drive prevention more generally. It wasn't specifically on obesity, but of course obesity came up because it's such a pressing issue. This question of governance was discussed quite extensively, and we do have governance systems, of course, in Wales. We have public services boards, we have regional partnership boards, and how we can get those aligned behind this common agenda is really important. But I'd like to see—and I know I'm a public health professional, so I know that only maybe 10 per cent, 15 per cent, possibly 20 per cent of what makes and keeps us healthy as individuals and as communities can be driven through the health system; but I would like the system to step up and take these kinds of issues more seriously as well. So I'd be looking for local leadership through directors of public health and indeed through chief executives to work with their public services boards on this. So, we'll need some sort of national oversight, absolutely, but we need local ownership and local leadership, too.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair. Delivery of the plan will be led by a national implementation board that will be accountable to Ministers. Which Minister do you believe it should be accountable to, or, given the complexity of obesity, should the board be directly accountable to the First Minister?
Dr Frank Atherton: Ultimately, the First Minister will be responsible for this and will want to have a strong oversight of this. It is often framed as a health issue, and the Minister, Vaughan Gething, has a strong personal commitment to this, I know. We've talked extensively with him and with sports and recreation colleagues about that, so there's a link there. It does cut across all portfolios, and so this is an issue that I have discussed with Cabinet, and that collective ownership is really important, and will be, because it can't just sit in one domain. I think what you do need to have is you do need to have a lead organisation or a lead ministry, and I would see health as—I work within health, so I'm perhaps biased, but I would see health as leading this, but it needs broad ownership across Government.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I know my colleague Siân Gwenllian mentioned earlier targets and things, but I know in Wales we're not too good at collecting data. What data is currently available on childhood obesity and what metrics will be used to measure progress against the plan's objectives?
Dr Frank Atherton: Well, of course, our main data source is the child measurement programme, which collects information on children entering school aged four or five. That's our main source of information. If we look at that data, it shows us—. Well, I'm sure you're familiar with the statistics, but it'll be just under a third of children at that age who are overweight or obese—
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Could I just ask—sorry to interrupt—how up to date is that?
Dr Frank Atherton: The last survey was just last year.
Nathan Cook: The data was published last week.
Dr Frank Atherton: Yes, the lastest data was out last week.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: It is pretty up to date.
Dr Frank Atherton: So, it's pretty up to date, and what it shows—. It's not getting radically worse—there's always statistical variation in these things—but it's not getting any better. And, for the first time last year, we did look at the question not just of children who were overweight or obese, but we actually singled out the proportion who are obese, severely obese. So we have a figure for that for the first time, which is about 12 per cent, which is quite shocking, in a way.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: It is shocking.
Dr Frank Atherton: So, that's our main source of information. Does that answer your question?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, but how will any gaps in your data be addressed?
Dr Frank Atherton: Well, one of the questions that are often asked is: could we measure more on a longitudinal basis? By that I mean in England, for example, children are measured at school entry and then again at year 11—at age 11 or 12., that kind of age group. And so you do have a longitudinal view over time of what's happening to children. I think that would be helpful to us in Wales, and it's one of the questions in the consultation about whether we should expand that. Obviously, that would have significant resource implications, not just for the funding, but also for schools and for the system to deliver it. But it's something that maybe would help us in terms of better understanding and better evaluation—the point that was made earlier.
Nathan Cook: And the other data we do have is the millennium cohort study, which has been released, for 14 and 15-year-olds. That's going to be—. We're starting to think about how we can utilise some of that data, looking at that longitudinal picture around children as well, which will be really helpful.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. You've answered my next question. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Can I just ask about the child measurement programme? The strategy commits to looking at whether we can have a second measurement taking place in Wales. Can you just tell us a bit more about your thinking on that and when you would see a second measurement taking place and how you would use that data?
Dr Frank Atherton: I touched on that just now, but personally I do think it would be helpful to have more information. It's always the case, There's always a trade-off between the cost of getting that information and the value of the information. So, the question of how it would be used would be really important. There is still a lot that we don't know. We know an awful lot about obesity and being overweight and the causes of it, but we don't really have a very clear understanding, in Wales at least, of the point at which children start to become overweight. Although we know that overweight children tend to go on to become overweight adults, we don't know what proportion of them between school entry and later teenage years—what those changes are. So, it would help us to have some better understanding, which would help to direct some of our initiatives. I'd be generally supportive of the principle. We'll wait and see what comes out in the consultation, and it's something that we need to give thought to, but we do have to trade off the additionality of what the information would give us with the cost of doing that, of course.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now on healthy environments from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. In the draft plan, some of the measures in there suggest legislating for restricting price promotions and banning energy drinks, and that sort of thing. Do you think that, if we go down that road, there's going to be time within this Assembly to introduce such legislation? And, if not, what do you think might be the timescale for such legislation?
Dr Frank Atherton: It may well be that there are things in Wales that we might wish to legislate on, and you've mentioned two of them, and they're good examples. We would, obviously, need to undertake quite detailed consultation on those and, in a way, we need to mirror what's happening in England and in Scotland to some degree around the consultations they're having on energy drinks. We also need to influence the issues that are not devolved to us and we seek to do that. As to your question of legislative time, I'm not really in a position to answer that. What I could say is that legislation may well be one of the outcomes of the consultation. There may well be things that we wish to choose to legislate on. The timing of that will have to be subject to other pressures, and I come back to the point that legislation, of course, is one of the tools that we've got—we need to deploy them all.
Dawn Bowden AM: Sure, I understand that, that you could do other things. I know—. We've heard from the Government, on other calls for legislation, that the programme's very tight, certainly for this term, so I was just wondering whether we might get that in, but okay. If I turn now to the planning system—and this might not be something that you have great deal of knowledge of; I'd just welcome your view on this, because, when we discussed with stakeholders, we talked about whether the planning system, for instance, could be used to, as an example, restrict hot food takeaways around schools and so on. Would that be a measure that you would support, something like that?
Dr Frank Atherton: I think it's definitely something we want to look at and, of course, that question is asked in the consultation, so we would like to know people's views on that. It's an interesting one. I think there is a question—a really important question—about how we can use the planning system more effectively. I've discussed with Nathan on a number of occasions, with planning colleagues in Welsh Government and in local authorities, about the art of the possible, let's say. There may be things that we could think about and we want to get those ideas through the consultation. The specific question around takeaways, particularly takeaways near schools, is often asked. I was very interested to see, up in the north-east, some time ago, that one of the local authorities up there did put a moratorium on the opening of new fast-food venues near to schools, or indeed in areas where levels of obesity and overweight were particularly high. I understand London is now—some London boroughs are now—experimenting with that as well. So, that gave me comfort, because maybe there are powers within local authorities that can be used more effectively. I think my view at the moment is that the jury's kind of out on whether those are effective and how effective they're going to be. But the fact that we have some initiatives around the UK does give us an opportunity to study that and to learn from experience perhaps and then, if it is shown to be beneficial, to think about that here in Wales, yes.
Dawn Bowden AM: Sure, because it will only be one of a suite of measures anyway. Of itself, it wouldn't address the problem, but, added to other initiatives, I guess it would. Can I just ask you briefly, then, about community sport infrastructure and, in particular, of new schools? So, Welsh Government, as you know, has ploughed a huge amount of money into the twenty-first century schools programme. What we heard when we spoke to stakeholders recently, particularly headteachers, was that, in some of the new schools that have been built, we haven't had changing rooms and toilet facilities, for instance, built into the new buildings. So, if we're going to try and utilise these buildings for general community activity to get kids and the wider public, actually, more active, do you think that's something that we ought to be building in? Again, not your particular direct area of responsibility, but something that you might have an input into, is that, when we're developing schools, we should be making sure that they have those kinds of facilities so that they become accessible to the wider public. Is that something that you would be prepared to make a recommendation around?
Dr Frank Atherton: Well, it's certainly a fascinating area and one that I think has a lot of potential. It goes—. You're right to raise it in the context of schools, and I can understand why this committee would, but I think it goes beyond that, actually, into all developments in the public sector and how they're developed and whether we're building health into our environment, which perhaps is your starting point. One of the things that I was really pleased to see in terms of the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017 that was passed a couple of years ago was the use of health impact assessment as a tool, and we're still working on how that will inform policy and how that will be applied in issues such as policy decisions through Government, but also in more downstream issues about how we create the public infrastructure that the public can and should be using. And so I would like to see the use of health impact assessments to a much greater degree to inform those kinds of decisions. If you apply that kind of lens and you take the point, which is inherent in your question, I think, that schools are not just for kids, they're for communities, then you would—it would lead you to a conclusion that you would perhaps design and build them in a different way. So, on a personal basis, I would certainly support your view that we should be looking to use the sports environment in schools in the same way as we use leisure centres. There are all kinds of barriers in there, and I understand all of that, and it's not really my field, exactly as you say, but, as a matter of principle, I think it's a good one to pursue.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Thank you. And widening it out to other public services buildings as well.
Dr Frank Atherton: Indeed.
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes. Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We're going to move on now to talk about how we create healthy settings. I've got some questions from Suzy Davies.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you very much. Yes, perhaps if we could just stay in this area of education just for a moment, I think we all agree that healthy habits acquired early on probably tend to last quite well, so I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about the healthy and sustainable preschool scheme and whether you think some timescales should be made public about what you expect the achievements from that scheme to be. But, in particular, I was struck with what you said about local leadership, and I just want you to bear that in mind in answering the next question, which is about the foundation phase. You're probably aware that this committee has heard from various school leaders that they're struggling in some cases to meet the ratio of staffing for the foundation phase, which potentially compromises the purpose of it in terms of physical activity. I'm just wondering how the strategy development board is considering that at the moment. Is it something that's come on the radar for the board? Is it something you're thinking about? And, if so, who do you think should be responsible for pinning that down a little bit? Because this is education, not health, and—.
Dr Frank Atherton: Well, look, I've got to confess to you, I'm not an educationist, and so the question on staffing numbers in schools is not one that I have been asked to give a deal of consideration to, and it hasn't really been discussed, I don't believe, in the context of development of the strategy. If there is a specific point around that that the committee would like to make in terms of a response into the consultation, which I presume you'll be making, then we'd be happy to consider that. As to healthy preschools, I don't know, Nathan may have some view on that. I've not been closely involved with the work. We have standards and we perhaps need to think about how we tighten those standards and how we—enforce isn't the right word, but how we implement and make sure that those standards are properly implemented, because you're absolutely right to say that habits are developed early in life. That's in the preschool; it's also in the home of course, and then later in the school. So, we do need to look at all of those as settings and are there more things we can do within those settings to drive healthier behaviours—that's exactly why we need the consultation.
Nathan Cook: But I would say, through that scheme as well, we've really got a really good bank of preschools that are actually doing some really great work in this area as well. So, I think the more we can understand the successes that some of those environments are having—you know, how we can roll those out and work across other settings to create that wider impact as well is going to be really important.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you. What I'm thinking about is expectations at that level will be expectations at a slightly older level, which will be contained within the foundation phase. And while you're quite right—obviously, parents have a role in this, or families—there will be, particularly with the introduction of the new curriculum, certain expectations on schools to provide not just healthy environments but to actively work towards well-being and healthy weight in children and things. And that's why I asked you about local leadership, because, if it fails for reasons that have nothing to do with the plan at foundation phase, it's going to fail further up the school years as well. I think it might be something that the board might want to consider here, because at some point there'll be an accountability question and we will want to know how 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' fits in with the new plans for the new curriculum, and whether it's merely persuasive and influential or whether it has the weight to place some obligations on school leaders about what they do in their schools. So, this connection, I think, is quite an important one, and, if the strategy development board could consider that, I think it would be very helpful, because this doesn't exist in a vacuum.
Dr Frank Atherton: Well, I'd certainly be delighted to take that back and we can look at it in terms of how we move from the consultation into the final strategy. It's certainly a point we can try and look at.
Suzy Davies AM: Because we will want to know who to ask: 'you're the accountable person—why has something worked, or not worked?' We will need to know that at some point.
Dr Frank Atherton: Just building on Nathan's point, some of the schools—I know it's schools rather than the preschools, and I take your point, but some of the schools we've been working with have absolutely brilliant models of good practice and good local leadership. I remember the Minister actually at the launch, and one of the schools was represented there, and they presented—the school came and some of the children came and presented—to the whole audience about the activities that they were undertaking in their school around physical activity and on healthy eating, and it was such a model of good behaviour the question was, 'Well, why not everywhere?', so that probably speaks to your question.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, well, thank you for that commitment anyway.
Lynne Neagle AM: And have you had any discussions, then, with education officials around things like teacher training and CPD, because you'll be aware the Health and Social Care Committee has made a number of recommendations in this area? It's crucial that we skill up the staff to develop these things in an appropriate way, isn't it?
Dr Frank Atherton: Well, we certainly discuss with education colleagues in Welsh Government. There's more we need to do in terms of that, because you're absolutely right: there's something about building the whole of the workforce—education is really important, but elsewhere as well; it's about how do we really make every contact count, you know, that construct. So, everybody who's working in the health and social care system should have a role in this; everybody who works in education, whether it's the old—. Do we still have dinner ladies? Or teachers, you know, they have a role to play in supporting children to be as healthy as they possibly can. And, actually, I see them, Chair, as a really essential part of the public health workforce.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Suzy, are you going to do your curriculum one?
Suzy Davies AM: Well, I've bound it in together, but that final point you make about teachers being part of the answer to this, they're already under a range of pressures: is it fair to make them accountable for whether this works or not? Or should that local leadership lie somewhere else? I don't expect you to pin down a person today.
Dr Frank Atherton: I wouldn't like to blame a teacher or performance manage them on the proportion of their children in their class who are overweight. That would clearly be nonsense, wouldn't it? But they are part of the solution, and so the accountability lies further up the chain, doesn't it? The question I think we would have, and public services boards might well ask, and the local education authorities may well ask, is: how effective is any particular school at driving forwards these healthy behaviours?
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. I'll leave some questions for Hefin.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin.
Hefin David AM: Is that all right, Chair?
Lynne Neagle AM: You've got the floor, Hefin.
Hefin David AM: Thank you, Chair. You make a commitment to embedding physical activity at an early stage in primary school education. What would that look like?
Dr Frank Atherton: Just in terms of the physical activity, I have to say it's a really important dimension and we need to move further on. We know not enough of our children are physically active and they're not meeting the various guidelines, so it's really important. It doesn't actually have as much of an impact on weight as the dietary issue. I'd just say that. It's really important for all sorts of reasons. It does have an impact on healthy weight, but it has a huge impact in terms of socialisation, in terms of mental health issues, et cetera, you know. So—I'm sorry, I've lost track of your question.
Nathan Cook: I'd just say that one thing we have got in train is, obviously, Sport Wales, Public Health Wales and Natural Resources Wales—we have them working together as a collaborative at the moment to look at how their joint delivery on physical activity can be taken forward more efficiently. So, one of the things they are looking at is obviously the schools programmes they do through eco-schools, the Welsh network of healthy schools and the sports programme to really think about that physical activity and how we can have better join up in terms of the programmes that we're already delivering as well.
Hefin David AM: With that in mind, I'm going to confess to you, chief medical officer, I did anything in school I could to avoid physical education lessons. I hated it. I didn't feel engaged with it. Yet, two weeks ago, I played for the Assembly rugby team—I wanted to get that in. The school sports survey, that would suggest that we're still not hitting those targets with children. How can we get children more engaged with physical education in ways that—? I felt completely alienated in school.
Dr Frank Atherton: Well, you're right, and many people go through that same journey and come to physical activity later in life, and that's great if they do that. The sad reality is that many people don't, and we also know that there are issues around the dropping off, particularly for girls, of physical activity towards the teenage years. So, there are specific moments that we need to understand. We do have a lot of information about these kinds of things. Public Health Wales is very good at collating the information. We do need to turn that into programmes. I mean, at the heart of it, it's about making sports and physical activity enjoyable and attractive to people. Sometimes that's easier, I sense, for boys than for girls, but we need to tailor things to different audiences.
Hefin David AM: Yes, that's the trick, isn't it? It's about finding out what children enjoy doing. That could be quite a wide and varied range of things. Is that the key?
Dawn Bowden AM: It's not all about organised team sports.
Hefin David AM: Yes. As Dawn said, it's not just about organised team sports. There are some very individual activities you could do.
Dr Frank Atherton: Absolutely, yes. And that's where I think—. I'm delighted that Sport Wales has moved beyond. It's not just about elite sports; it's about getting everybody engaged and active in sports, and that partnership with Public Health Wales that Nathan talked about is really important, because we need a population approach to driving physical activity.
Hefin David AM: So, do you think, with that in mind, we need statutory guidance for schools on physical education?
Dr Frank Atherton: Again, I'd look to the consultation as to whether there was an appetite for any kind of guidance. It may well be that that is something that could be considered.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And finally, with regard to free school meals to all pupils in primary and secondary schools, do you think that extending that to all pupils would be beneficial in providing a more varied diet for pupils?
Dr Frank Atherton: I don't have a personal view on that. I think it's the quality of the food that kids are getting, whether that comes from home or through school, and whether it's free or whether it's paid for. I think it's the quality of the food that we need to focus on. The question of children being hungry at school is a really important one and needs to be addressed at a national level. I think that's a—
Hefin David AM: So, you think that's more about the provision of food for those who might not have access to it than providing a varied diet.
Dr Frank Atherton: I think it's important that children have access to food, absolutely, if that's your question, but we also need to look at the quality of the food and what's in that food offer.
Hefin David AM: But you don't necessarily think universal provision would—.
Dr Frank Atherton: I don't have a clear view on that. I know there's a larger debate about that.
Hefin David AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: I've got some supplementaries from Janet and then Suzy.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes. I've been around some amazing schools in my own constituency, where they've got proper canteen facilities for pupils and really, really good produce in the meals. However, there's probably only a third having school meals; the rest are packed lunches. And, to be honest, I've been very surprised and shocked at what I've seen of the quality of the food in the packed lunches. Nobody can really police, and I wouldn't want to see parents being policed over what goes in a packed lunch, so if there is data out there to suggest that there's a larger percentage of parents providing packed lunched that are really not good at all, then there is some merit to be said for what Hefin is—. Me, personally, I'd love to see the introduction of universal school meals. I think it's been a very retrograde step, going backwards. Would you be willing to carry out any research?
Dr Frank Atherton: So, I mean, your point about food that's brought in in the packed lunches is a really important one, and I've talked to some headteachers as well about this. We could go down a route of guidance and prohibition, but that gets you into the role of nanny in chief and I don't really see that as my role or Government's role, and I don't think it's effective either. Do you remember—? You must have seen on tv—I think it was in Scotland; I don't know if it's happened in Wales—parents pushing the fish and chip packets through the school railings. We don't need to get into that. What I have seen, though, is some really good innovative practice in schools where, for example, they reward children for bringing the healthy options. Schools can give guidance to parents about what would be a healthy lunch and what sort of things might be expected to be seen in the lunch box. And you can reward children, and children do respond to rewards. So, I've seen some of those approaches that have transformed, actually, the offer of what comes in school boxes. But I think just banning chocolate bars and crisps in the packed lunch is unlikely to be successful.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: We can't do that. So, my point to the question was: isn't there some merit, perhaps, about all children being equal and eating similar good-quality food in schools?
Dr Frank Atherton: Yes. That gets you back to the question about universal school meals.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Perhaps some of that £56 million sugar tax, even. Who knows?
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes. Mine is just a short question. The draft plan commits, doesn't it, to updating the healthy eating in schools regulations—the 2013 regulations? I appreciate this is a consultation, but what is it that needs changing in those regulations at the moment, just to give us a bit of steer?
Nathan Cook: It's mainly on sugar content, so, obviously, they don't adhere to current Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition guidelines around sugar levels. So, what we'd want to consider is, you know, what we need to be careful of is unintended consequences of changing that, as well, if you see a shift to more kids bringing in school packed lunches as well. So, I think we want to consider the best way of doing that and consider through the consultation how we can go about it.
Suzy Davies AM: All right. So, it's very pertinent to Janet's question, in that way. Okay, so it's mainly about sugar, but it could be about other things as well. Okay. Thanks.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. The next questions are from Janet anyway; firstly, on the clinical obesity pathway.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: The 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' plan commits to a review of the clinical obesity pathway. What are the time frames for this review, and what do you think are the basic essentials of a clinical obesity pathway for children and young people?
Dr Frank Atherton: We do have a pathway for managing overweight, and that's been in place since about 2010, I believe, and we do need to bring that up to date in terms of current knowledge and experiences. We've challenged Public Health Wales; we've asked Public Health Wales to undertake a review of that pathway, and they are going through that process now. I'm not sure of exactly the time frame that we have given them for that.
Nathan Cook: We were asking them to review the pathway before we launch the final strategy in October because, obviously, what we want is for that to inform what that final strategy looks like. So, we'll be looking probably early autumn for them to report back on that.
Dr Frank Atherton: The second point of your question about what are the essential elements, I mean, they are already there; we need to tweak them and we need to make sure that they're properly delivered. But it's a tiered approach, so, having access to information through schools and through communities and into families is part of the first step of that. And then, if children are overweight, it's a question about how they're identified. There are questions about the ability of the public to recognise large children, so there may be an issue there. But when children are running into issues around weight, what kind of interventions can be put in, either through primary care or through communities through health visitors, et cetera? And then of course we do have—and we've started to shine a light on this, haven't we—the very overweight children. I don't think we have enough in the way of targeted support to be able to support those. There are programmes available, but they're perhaps not universally provided. So, I think there's something about looking at our whole pathway, mapping out what the current evidence now shows us is needed, and then thinking about what is our provision in Wales and what do we need to do to bring that up to the level of the places that are the best.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. The draft plan recognises the importance of the first 1,000 days, but it doesn't appear to include any new proposals to help parents to enable lifestyle changes. It lists existing initiatives, such as the Healthy Child Wales programme and breastfeeding action plan. Are you satisfied that the draft plan does enough to address the influence that family and parents have on children's healthy weight behaviours, particularly in the first 1,000 days?
Dr Frank Atherton: Well, the first 1,000 days are really critically in shaping lives, as I'm sure you'd agree. We are absolutely open to any other suggestions that the public or this committee have as to what more we can and should do. There are a number of things, the sorts of programmes you've mentioned, that I think could be more effective. We're currently looking at breastfeeding because it starts before birth, actually. We know that children who are breastfed are less likely to suffer from obesity in childhood and, indeed, to go on to be obese adults. So, we do need to go further on that. We do have some programmes—Healthy Working Wales, et cetera—that need to be improved. If there are other interventions in other areas that we need to take, then we'd be delighted to hear what they are, but those are the ones that have jumped out so far.
Nathan Cook: Can I just say—? One of the proposals we're looking for is, obviously, we know that during pregnancy it's a really critical time when we can actually look to work with mothers. We know from looking at some of the behaviour change that it's actually a really critical point when new mothers really start thinking about their lives, wanting the best for their child and their families. So, what we are thinking about is how we could develop some kind of approaches to that going forward. But we know our Healthy Start scheme is also a good lever for us, just in terms of how we can look to improve that kind of dietary offer at the earliest stage as well.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Finally, we know that for some families day-to-day challenges can make it difficult for them to make healthy choices, particularly for those on lower incomes and/or maybe using food banks. Could the Welsh Government take bolder action to better support low-income families to eat healthily?
Dr Frank Atherton: Well, you've touched on a really important point about inequalities because overweight and obesity is not evenly distributed across our population. It absolutely is more prevalent in more socioeconomically deprived communities, and that's something that should really concern us all. So, it gets you to questions of availability of fresh food and produce; it gets you to questions of formulation of products and whether value brands are less healthy than more premium brands. So, it cuts across all of those issues that we talked about in terms of settings and in terms of environment earlier. There is something about the affordability of good-quality healthy food that we need to think about. We do need to think in broad terms—broader terms than just obesity, but we do need to think in broad terms—about how we create a society where families have the wherewithal to lead healthy lives, and that gets you to really important questions about the minimum wage and income poverty. There's no doubt in my mind—I'm a public health professional—and there's no doubt in my mind that economic success and health success go hand in hand. So, you speak to a very deep question there. In terms of what we can do through this particular consultation, there are some things in there about providing better access, but without tackling some of those deeper determinants of health, their impact will necessarily be limited.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Just finally from me, then, you referred earlier to the importance of making every contact count, but some stakeholders have told the committee that they struggle to do that because of difficulties in availability of people to refer to. Is that a situation that you recognise and what, really, can we do to improve that situation?
Dr Frank Atherton: Well, it depends what you mean as to where to refer to. So, the health system obviously needs to respond to this issue. What we're seeing across the NHS is a gradual transformation in primary care so that primary care is no longer about going to see your GP, it's about going to see a practice where you have a range of health professionals. Would I like to see more dietetic support, for example, in that setting? Absolutely I would. I think we need to think in terms of that pathway that we were talking about earlier, about access to that kind of advice and support, which can head off people getting into problems and kids getting into problems with weight issues. So, that question of redesign of the pathway really speaks to, I think, your point about, 'Well, where do people go when they have problems with their weight?' That's true for adults and it's true for children as well.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you both very much for your attendance? It's been a really productive session. We appreciate your time. You will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy in due course, but thank you again.
Dr Frank Atherton: We'll do that. Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the committee, because getting some input into the consultation from children's perspectives, this would be one of the routes we would absolutely welcome. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you very much. Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee on CAMHS tier 4 provision. Paper to note 2 is a letter from the Minister for Health and Social Services also on CAMHS in-patient provision. Paper to note 3 is a letter from the Children Commissioner for Wales on tier 4 CAMHS provision. Paper to note 4 is a letter from Qualifications Wales to the Minister for Education on qualifications for the new curriculum. Paper to note 5 is a letter from me to the Minister for Education on the development of the new curriculum. Paper to note 6 is a letter from me to the Minister for Education seeking clarification on the draft additional learning needs code. Paper to note 7 is a letter from me to the Minister for Education seeking clarification on the response to our Brexit report. Paper to note 8 is a letter from the Equality and Human Rights Commission on a cumulative impact assessment briefing for committee, which has been offered. Paper to note 9 is a letter from the Chair of the Petitions Committee on a national taskforce for children’s mental health. Paper to note 10 is a letter to the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union from the children’s commissioners for England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland on the implications of Brexit for children. There are a few that I'd like to return to in private, but are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Okay. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content?
Suzy Davies AM: Yes. There's somebody up there.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. | |
doc_187 | Professor B: OK So uh today we 're looking at a number of uh things we 're trying and uh fortunately for listeners to this uh we lost some of it 's visual but um got tables in front of us . Um what is {disfmarker} what does combo mean ?
PhD C: So combo is um a system where we have these features that go through a network and then this same string of features but low - pass filtered with the low - pass filter used in the MSG features . And so these low - pass filtered goes through M eh {disfmarker} another MLP and then the linear output of these two MLP 's are combined just by adding the values and then there is this KLT . Um the output is used as uh features as well .
Professor B: Um so let me try to restate this and see if I have it right . There is uh {disfmarker} there is the features uh there 's the OGI features and then um those features um go through a contextual {disfmarker} uh l l let 's take this bottom arr one pointed to by the bottom arrow . Um those features go through a contextualized KLT . Then these features also uh get um low - pass filtered
PhD C: Yeah . Yeah so yeah I could perhaps draw this on the blackboard
Professor B: Sure . Yeah . Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: The graph , yeah another one .
Professor B: Yeah , that 's good .
PhD C:
Professor B: So
PhD C: So we have these features from OGI that goes through the three paths .
Professor B: Yeah . Three , OK .
PhD C: The first is a KLT using several frames of the features .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD C: The second path is uh MLP also using nine frames {disfmarker} several frames of features
Professor B: Yeah . Uh - huh .
PhD C: The third path is this low - pass filter .
Professor B: Uh - huh .
PhD C: Uh , MLP
Professor B: Aha ! aha !
PhD C: Adding the outputs just like in the second propose the {disfmarker} the proposal from {disfmarker} for the first evaluation .
Professor B: Yeah ? Yeah . Yeah .
PhD C: And then the KLT and then the two together again .
Professor B: No , the KLT . And those two together . That 's it .
PhD D: Two HTK .
Professor B: OK so that 's {disfmarker} that 's this bottom one .
PhD C: Um . So this is {disfmarker} yeah
Professor B: And so uh and then the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the one at the top {disfmarker} and I presume these things that uh are in yellow are in yellow because overall they 're the best ?
PhD C: Yeah that 's the reason , yeah .
Professor B: Oh let 's focus on them then so what 's the block diagram for the one above it ?
PhD C: For the f the f first yellow line you mean ?
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah so it 's uh basically s the same except that we don't have this uh low - pass filtering so we have only two streams .
PhD D: Step .
PhD C: Well . There 's {disfmarker} there 's no low {disfmarker} low - pass processing used as additional feature stream .
Professor B: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Um
Professor B: Do you e um they mentioned {disfmarker} made some {disfmarker} uh when I was on the phone with Sunil they {disfmarker} they mentioned some weighting scheme that was used to evaluate all of these numbers .
PhD C: Yeah . Uh actually the way things seems to um well it 's uh forty percent for TI - digit , sixty for all the SpeechDat - Cars , well all these languages . Ehm the well match is forty , medium thirty five and high mismatch twenty - five . Yeah .
Professor B: Um and we don't have the TI - digits part yet ?
PhD C: Uh , no .
Professor B: OK .
PhD C: But yeah . Generally what you observe with TI - digits is that the result are very close whatever the {disfmarker} the system .
Professor B: OK . And so have you put all these numbers together into a single number representing that ?
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: I mean not {disfmarker}
PhD C: Uh not yet .
Professor B: OK so that should be pretty easy to do and that would be good {disfmarker}
PhD C: No . Mmm yeah , yeah .
Professor B: then we could compare the two and say what was better .
PhD C: Mmm . Yeah .
Professor B: Um and how does this compare to the numbers {disfmarker} oh so OGI two is just the top {disfmarker} top row ?
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD C: So yeah to {disfmarker} actually OGI two is the {disfmarker} the baseline with the OGI features but this is not exactly the result that they have because they 've {disfmarker} they 're still made some changes in the features
Professor B: OK .
PhD C: and {disfmarker} well but uh actually our results are better than their results . Um I don't know by how much because they did not send us the new results
Professor B: OK .
PhD C: Uh
Professor B: Uh OK so the one {disfmarker} one place where it looks like we 're messing things up a bit is in the highly mismatched Italian .
PhD C: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor B: An
PhD C: Yeah there is something funny happening here because {disfmarker} yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: But there are thirty - six and then sometimes we are {disfmarker} we are {disfmarker} we are around forty - two and
Professor B: Now up
PhD C: but
Professor B: Uh so one of the ideas that you had mentioned last time was having a {disfmarker} a second um silence detection .
PhD C: Yeah . So there are some results here
PhD D: For the Italian .
PhD C: uh so the third and the fifth line of the table
PhD D: For this one .
Professor B: So filt is what that is ?
PhD C: Filt , yeah
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD C: Um yeah so it seems f for the {disfmarker} the well match and mismatched condition it 's uh it brings something . Uh but uh actually apparently there are {disfmarker} there 's no room left for any silence detector at the server side because of the delay . Uh well
Professor B: Oh we can't do it . Oh OK .
PhD C: No .
PhD D: For that {disfmarker} for that we {disfmarker}
Professor B: Oh .
PhD C: Uh
Professor B: Too bad . Good idea , but can't do it .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: OK .
PhD C: Except I don't know because they {disfmarker} I think they are still working well .
Professor B: Uh - huh .
PhD C: Uh t two days ago they were still working on this trying to reduce the delay of the silence detector so but yeah if we had time perhaps we could try to find uh some kind of compromise between the delay that 's on the handset and on the server side . Perhaps try to reduce the delay on the handset and {disfmarker} but well hmm For the moment they have this large delay on the {disfmarker} the feature computation and so we don't
Professor B: OK . So Alright so for now at least that 's not there you have some results with low - pass filter cepstrum doesn't have a huge effect but it {disfmarker} but it looks like it you know maybe could help in a couple places .
PhD C: I th
Professor B: Uh little bit .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: Um and um um Yeah and uh let 's see What else did we have in there ? Uh I guess it makes a l um at this point this is I {disfmarker} I guess I should probably look at these others a little bit uh And you {disfmarker} you yellowed these out uh but uh uh Oh I see yeah that {disfmarker} that one you can't use because of the delay . Those look pretty good . Um let 's see that one Well even the {disfmarker} just the {disfmarker} the second row doesn't look that bad right ? That 's just uh yeah ?
PhD C: Yep .
Professor B: And {disfmarker} and that looks like an interesting one too .
PhD D: Mmm yeah .
Professor B: Uh
PhD C: Actually the {disfmarker} yeah the second line is uh pretty much like the first line in yellow except that we don't have this KLT on the first {disfmarker} on the left part of the diagram . We just have the features as they are .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Um
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah so when we do this weighted measure we should compare the two cuz it might even come out better . And it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little {disfmarker} slightly simpler .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor B: So {disfmarker} so there 's {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I would put that one also as a {disfmarker} as a maybe . Uh and it {disfmarker} yeah and it 's actually {vocalsound} does {disfmarker} does significantly better on the uh uh highly mismatched Italian , so s and little worse on the mis on the MM case , but uh Well yeah it 's worse than a few things
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: so uh let 's see how that c that c c see how that comes out on their {disfmarker} their measure and {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} are we running this uh for TI - digits or uh
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: Now is TI di {disfmarker} is is that part of the result that they get for the uh development {disfmarker} th the results that they 're supposed to get at the end of {disfmarker} end of the month , the TI - digits are there also ?
PhD C: Yeah . Yeah . It 's included , yeah .
Professor B: Oh OK . OK . And see what else there is here . Um Oh I see {disfmarker} the one {disfmarker} I was looking down here at the {disfmarker} the o the row below the lower yellowed one . Uh that 's uh that 's with the reduced uh KLT size {disfmarker} reduced dimensionality .
PhD C: Mm - hmm ? Yeah . Yeah .
Professor B: What happens there is it 's around the same and so you could reduce the dimension as you were saying before a bit perhaps .
PhD C: Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's significantly worse well but {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .
Professor B: It 's significantly worse {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh it 's {disfmarker} it 's mostly worse .
PhD C: Exc - except for the HM
PhD D: For many a mismatch it 's worse .
PhD C: but
Professor B: Yeah . But it is little . I mean not {disfmarker} not by a huge amount , I don't know . What are {disfmarker} what are the sizes of any of these sets , I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sure you told me before , but I 've forgotten . So {disfmarker} you know how many words are in uh one of these test sets ?
PhD C: Uh
PhD D: I don't remember .
Professor B: About ?
PhD C: Um it 's {disfmarker} it depends {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} the well matched is generally larger than the other sets and I think it 's around two thousand or three thousand words perhaps , at least .
PhD D: Ye But words {disfmarker} well word {disfmarker} I don't know .
PhD C: Hmm ? The words , yeah . S sentences .
PhD D: Sentences .
PhD C: Some sets have five hundred sentences , so .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: So the {disfmarker} so the sets {disfmarker} so the test sets are between five hundred and two thousand sentences , let 's say
PhD C: Mmm .
Professor B: and each sentence on the average has four or five digits or is it {disfmarker} most of them longer or
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah for the Italian even seven digits y more or less
PhD C: It {disfmarker} it d Seven digits .
PhD D: but sometime the sentence have only one digit and sometime uh like uh the number of uh credit cards , something like that .
Professor B: Mm - hmm . Right , so between one and sixteen . See the {disfmarker} I mean the reason I 'm asking is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is we have all these small differences and I don't know how seriously to take them , right ?
PhD C: Mm - hmm ?
Professor B: So uh i if {disfmarker} if you had uh just you know {disfmarker} to give an example , if you had uh um if you had a thousand words then uh a {disfmarker} a tenth of a percent would just be one word ,
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: right ? So {disfmarker} so it wouldn't mean anything .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: Oh
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: um so um yeah it be kind of {disfmarker} I 'd kind of like to know what the sizes of these test sets were actually .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: The size that we have ?
PhD C: We could {disfmarker} we could run {disfmarker} run some kind of significance tests
Professor B: Yeah since these {disfmarker} well also just to know the numbers ,
PhD C: or
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: right . So these {disfmarker} these are word error rates
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: so this is on how many words .
PhD C: Yep .
PhD D: Yeah we have the result that the output of the HTK
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: The number of {disfmarker} of sentences , no it 's the number isn't .
PhD C: Yeah sure {disfmarker} sure . Yeah sure .
Professor B: Yeah so anyway if you could just mail out what those numbers are and then {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that be great .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: Um {vocalsound} what else is there here ? Um see the second {disfmarker} second from the bottom it says SIL , but this is some different kind of silence or thing or {disfmarker} what was that ?
PhD C: Uh
PhD D: It the {disfmarker} the output silence of the MLP .
PhD C: Oh yeah I see .
PhD D: It 's only one small experiment to know what happened . To apply also to in include also the {disfmarker} the silence of the MLP we have the fifty - six form and the silence to pick up the silence and we include those .
Professor B: Yes . Uh - huh , uh - huh . The silence plus the KLT output ? Oh so you 're only using the silence .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah , because when we apply the KLT
PhD C: No they 're {disfmarker} I think there is this silence in addition to the um KLT outputs
Professor B: No .
PhD D: in addition , yes .
PhD C: it is because we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we just keep uh we don't keep all the dimensions after the KLT
PhD D: In addition t
PhD C: and {disfmarker} yeah .
PhD D: and we not s we are not sure if we pick {disfmarker} we have the silence .
PhD C: So we try to add the silence also in addition to the {disfmarker} these twenty - eight dimensions .
Professor B: I see . OK . And what {disfmarker} and what 's OGI forty - five ? The bottom one there ?
PhD C: Uh it 's o it 's OGI two , it 's {disfmarker} so the {disfmarker} th it 's the features from the first line
PhD D: It 's in fact OGI two .
Professor B: S
PhD C: and {disfmarker} yeah .
Professor B: Right , but I mean what 's the {disfmarker} what does the last row mean ?
PhD C: So it 's uh basically this but without the KLT on the {disfmarker} from the left path .
Professor B: I thought that was the one {disfmarker} I thought that was the second row . So what 's the difference between the second
PhD C: Uh the second line you don't have this combo stuff so you just
Professor B: Oh .
PhD C: uh
Professor B: So this is like the second line but with {disfmarker} with the combo stuff .
PhD C: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD D: And with the {disfmarker} all the output of the combo .
Professor B: OK . Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: Uh
Professor B: OK , so {disfmarker} alright so it looks to me {disfmarker} I guess the same {disfmarker} given that we have to take the filt ones out of the {disfmarker} the running because of this delay problem {disfmarker} so it looks to me like the ones you said I agree are {disfmarker} are the ones to look at
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: but I just would add the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the second row one
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: and then um if we can um
PhD C: Mmm .
Professor B: oh yeah also when {disfmarker} when they 're using this weighting scheme of forty , thirty - five , twenty - five is that on the percentages or on the raw errors ? I guess it 's probably on the percentages right ?
PhD C: Uh {vocalsound} I guess , yeah .
Professor B: Yeah OK .
PhD C: I guess , yeah . Mmm .
Professor B: Alright .
PhD C: It 's not clear here .
Professor B: OK . Maybe {disfmarker} maybe they 'll argue about it . Um OK so if we can know what {disfmarker} how many words are in each and then um Dave uh Dave promised to get us something tomorrow which will be there as far as they 've gotten {vocalsound} Friday
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and then we 'll operate with that
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: and uh how long did it I guess if we 're not doing all these things {disfmarker} if we 're only doing um um I guess since this is development data it 's legitimate to do more than one , right ? I mean ordinarily if {disfmarker} in final test data you don't want to do several and {disfmarker} and take the best
PhD C: Yeah . Mmm .
Professor B: that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's not proper but if this is development data we could still look at a couple .
PhD C: Yeah . We can {disfmarker} yeah . Sure . But we have to decide {disfmarker} I mean we have to fix the system on this d on this data , to choose the best
Professor B: Yeah . I Right .
PhD C: and these
Professor B: But the question is when {disfmarker} when do we fix the system ,
PhD C: But we could
Professor B: do we fix the system uh tomorrow or do we fix the system on Tuesday ?
PhD C: it d
Professor B: I {disfmarker} Yeah , OK except that we do have to write it up .
PhD C: I think we fixed on Tuesday , yeah . Yeah . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Also , so
PhD C: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor B: Um
PhD C: Uh yeah well . Well basically it 's this with perhaps some kind of printing and some {disfmarker} some other @ @ .
Professor B: Right so maybe what we do is we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we uh as soon as we get the data from them we start the training and so forth
PhD C: Yeah but Mm - hmm .
Professor B: but we start the write - up right away because as you say there {disfmarker} there 's only minor differences between these .
PhD C: I think you {disfmarker} we could {disfmarker} we could start soon , yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Write up something .
Professor B: Yeah , and {disfmarker} and I {disfmarker} I would {disfmarker} you know , I would {disfmarker} I 'd kind of like to see it
PhD C: Um yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: maybe I can {disfmarker} I can edit it a bit uh sure . The {disfmarker} my {disfmarker} what in this si i in this situation is my forte which is English .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: Uh so
PhD C: Mmm .
Professor B: uh H yeah . Have y have you seen alt d do they have a format for how they want the system descriptions or anything ?
PhD C: Uh not really .
Professor B: OK .
PhD C: Um There is the format of the table which is {vocalsound} quite impressive .
Professor B: Yeah ? Uh I see . Yes , for those who are listening to this and not looking at it uh it 's not really that impressive , it 's just tiny . It 's all these little categories set a , set b , set c , multi - condition , clean . Uh No mitigation . Wow . Do you know what no {disfmarker} what no mitigation means here ?
PhD C: Um it should be the the problem with the error {disfmarker} channel error
Professor B: Oh that 's probably the {disfmarker}
PhD C: or
Professor B: this is probably channel error stuff
PhD C: well , you {disfmarker}
Professor B: huh ? Oh this is i right , it says right above here channel {disfmarker} channel error resilience ,
PhD C: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor B: yeah . So recognition performance is just the top part , actually . Uh and they have {disfmarker} yes , split between seen databases and non - seen so basically between development and {disfmarker} and evaluation .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: And {vocalsound} so {disfmarker} right , it 's presumed there 's all sorts of tuning that 's gone on on the see what they call seen databases and there won't be tuning for the uh unseen . Multi - condition {disfmarker} multi - condition . So they have {disfmarker} looks like they have uh uh
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: so they splitting up between the TI - digits and everything else , I see . So the everything else is the SpeechDat - Car , that 's the multi multilingual
PhD C: Yeah , so it 's not divided between languages you mean or {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well , it is .
PhD C: it just
Professor B: It is , but there 's also {disfmarker} there 's these tables over here for the {disfmarker} for the TI - digits and these tables over here for the car data which is {disfmarker} which is I guess all the multilingual stuff
PhD C: Oh yeah .
Professor B: and then uh there 's {disfmarker} they also split up between multi - condition and clean only .
PhD C: Yeah . For TI - digits .
Professor B: Yes .
PhD C: Yeah , actually yeah . For the TI - digits they want to train on clean and on noisy
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: and {disfmarker} yeah .
Professor B: So we 're doing that also , I guess .
PhD C: Uh yeah . But uh we actually {disfmarker} do we have the features ? Yeah . For the clean TI - digits but we did not test it yet . Uh the clean training stuff .
Professor B: OK .
PhD C: Mmm .
Professor B: Well anyway , sounds like there 'll be a lot to do just to {vocalsound} work with our partners to fill out the tables {vocalsound} over the next uh next few days
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Yes .
Professor B: I guess they have to send it out {disfmarker} let 's see the thirty - first is uh uh Wednesday and I think the {disfmarker} it has to be there by some hour uh European time on Wednesday
PhD C: Hmm - hmm .
Professor B: so {vocalsound} I think basically
PhD D: We lost time uh Wednesday maybe because {vocalsound} that the difference in the time may be {disfmarker} is a long different of the time .
Professor B: E excuse me ?
PhD D: Maybe the Thursday the twelfth of the night of the Thurs - thirty - one is {disfmarker} is not valid in Europe .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: We don't know is happening .
Professor B: Yes , so I mean {disfmarker} I think we have to actually get it done Tuesday
PhD D: Tuesday .
Professor B: right because I {disfmarker} I think
PhD C: Yeah , well .
Professor B: uh Uh
PhD C: Except if {disfmarker} if it 's the thirty - one at midnight or I don't know {disfmarker} we can {vocalsound} still do some work on Wednesday morning .
Professor B: yeah well . W i is but is {disfmarker} is it midni I thought it was actually something like five PM on {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah , well . Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: was like {disfmarker} I thought it was five PM or something , I didn't think it was midnight . I thought they said they wanted everything by
PhD D: Yeah , five PM .
Professor B: well , so five PM their time is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} if
PhD D: Not five PM , three PM .
Professor B: three PM .
PhD D: Three PM .
Professor B: Alright , that 's six in the morning here .
PhD C: It 's d no .
PhD D: Uh no three {disfmarker} three A - three PM ?
PhD C: No , we are wondering about the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the hour that we have to eh I don't know if it 's three PM {disfmarker} it 's
PhD D: Oh yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . Three PM here is in Europe midnight .
PhD C: Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's midnight but
Professor B: Yes , yes , but I didn't think it was midnight that it was due , I thought it was due at some hour during the day like five PM or something .
PhD D: Oh OK . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm ,
Professor B: In which case
PhD D: maybe .
Professor B: so I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} uh well we should look but my assumption is that we basically have to be done Tuesday . Um so then next Thursday we can sort of have a little aftermath
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor B: but then {disfmarker} then we 'll actually have the new data which is the German and the Danish
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: but that really will be much less work because uh the system will be fixed
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: so all we 'll do is take whatever {vocalsound} they have and {disfmarker} and uh and run it through the process .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: Uh we won't be changing the training on anything
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: so there 'll be no new training , there 'll just be new HTK runs , so that 's means in some sense we can kind of relax from this after {disfmarker} after Tuesday and {disfmarker} and uh maybe next meeting we can start talking a little bit about where we want to go from here uh in terms of uh the research .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Um you know what things uh did you think of when you were uh doing this process that uh you just didn't really have time to adequately work on uh uh so
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor B: What ?
Grad A: Oh , Stephane always has these great ideas and {disfmarker} oh , but uh we don't have time .
PhD C: Sure .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: I 'm not sure these are great ideas .
Professor B: But they 're ideas . Yeah ? Oh , that was good .
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor B: And {disfmarker} and uh also it 's still true that uh I think it 's true that {disfmarker} that we {disfmarker} we at least got fairly consistent i improved results by running uh the uh neural net transformation in parallel with the features
PhD C: But
Professor B: rather than uh in sequence which was {disfmarker} was your suggestion and that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that seems to have been borne out .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: The fact that none of these are {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} you know , enormous is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is not too surprising {disfmarker} most improvements aren't enormous and {vocalsound} uh
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: some of them are but uh I mean you have something really really wrong {vocalsound} and you fix it {vocalsound} you can get big and really enormous improvements
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: but {vocalsound} uh {vocalsound} um Cuz our best improvements over the years that we 've gotten from finding bugs , but Anyway OK well I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} I see where we are and everybody knows what they 're doing and is there {disfmarker} is there anything else we should talk about or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} are we done ?
PhD C: Mm - hmm . I think it 's OK um . We so basically we will {disfmarker} I think we 'll try to {disfmarker} to focus on these three architectures and {disfmarker} and perhaps I was thinking also a fourth one with just {disfmarker} just a single KLT because we did not really test that {disfmarker}
Professor B: Uh - huh .
PhD C: removing all these KLT 's and putting one single KLT at the end .
Professor B: Yeah , I mean that would be pretty low maintenance to try it .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: Uh if you can fit it in .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Oh I have {disfmarker} yeah I do have one other piece of information which uh I should tell people outside of this group too uh I don't know if we 're gonna need it uh but uh Jeff up at the uh University of Washington has uh gotten a hold of a uh uh some kind of server farm of uh of ten uh uh multiprocessor uh IBM machines RS six thousands
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and {disfmarker} and uh so I think each one is four processors or something or {disfmarker} I don't know , eight hundred megahertz or something and there 's four processors in a box and there 's ten boxes and there 's some kind of ti so if {disfmarker} you know he 's got a lot of processing power and um we 'd have to schedule it but if we have some big jobs and we wanna {disfmarker} wanna {disfmarker} wanna run them he 's {disfmarker} he 's offering it .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So . It 's uh when he was here eh uh he {disfmarker} he used i not only every machine here but every machine on campus as far as I could tell , so {disfmarker} so in some ways he just got his payback , but uh again I {disfmarker} I don't know if we 'll end up with {disfmarker} if we 're gonna be CPU limited on anything that we 're doing in this group
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: but {disfmarker} but if {disfmarker} if we are that 's an offer . OK well uh you guys doing great stuff so that 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's really neat and uh we 'll uh uh g don't think we need to uh um Oh well the other thing I guess that I will say is that uh the digits that we 're gonna record momentarily is starting to get {disfmarker} are starting to get into a pretty good size collection and um in addition to the SpeechDat stuff we will have those to work with really pretty soon now so that 's {disfmarker} that 's another source of data . Um which is s under somewhat better control and that we can {disfmarker} we can make measurements of the room the {disfmarker} uh that {disfmarker} you know if we feel there 's other measurements we don't have that we 'd like to have we can make them and uh Dave and I were just talking about that a little while ago so uh that 's another {disfmarker} another possibility for this {disfmarker} this kind of work .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: K , uh if nobody has anything else maybe we should go around do {disfmarker} do our digits {disfmarker} do our digits duty . OK . OK I 'll start . Uh , let me say that again . OK . I guess we 're done . | |
doc_188 | Project Manager: Okay . Uh good afternoon . This is our third meeting already .
Marketing: Good afternoon .
Project Manager: I hope you enjoyed your lunch . {vocalsound} I did anyway . {vocalsound} Um let's see . Presentation three . Okay this is um the second phase uh we're going to discuss today . It's the conceptual design meeting . And a few points of interest in this meeting um are the conceptual specification of components . Uh conceptual specification of design . And also trend-watching . Um these are hopefully the points you addressed in uh your pre uh presentations you're going to show me in a few minutes . Um but first I'll show you the agenda . Uh first the opening . Then we have three presentations . Uh after that we have to come to a decision on remote control concepts . How we're going to make it . And then we're closing . We have about forty minutes . Uh so I suggest let's get started . Uh did someone encounter any problems during the preparation ? No ?
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: Everything fine ?
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: That's nice . Then a little uh thing about the last meeting . Uh these are the points um we agreed on . The requirements and the target market . Uh requirements are uh teletext , docking station , audio signal , small screen , with some extras that uh button information . And we are going to use default materials . Um does somebody have any comments on these requirements ? Maybe ? No ? These are just the the things we thought of , so maybe if you figured something else or thought of something else , just let me know . And maybe we can uh work it out . And we're going to target uh sixty to to eighty year old customers . So now everybody knows what we're do we're doing , um I suggest let's get started with the presentations . So shall we keep the same uh line-up as uh last time ?
Marketing: Sure .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: I'll start off then .
Project Manager: Good luck . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Doh . 'Kay I'm uh gonna inform you about the trend-watching I've done over the past few days . Um we've done some market research . We distributed some more enquetes , questionnaires . And um besides that um I deployed some trend-watchers to Milan and Paris to well get all of the newest trends . And I've consulted some additional trend-watch trend-watchers , after the original trend-watchers return , about what the the best design would be . Um okay these are some overall findings . Um most important thing is the fancy design . Um the research indicated that that was by far the most important factor . Um innovativeness was about half as important as the fancy design . By innovativeness this means um functions which are not featured in other remote controls . Um about half of , half as important as the innovativeness was the was easy to use . Um for our um group , we're focusing on the people of sixty to eighty y years old , this is um , these factors are slightly more equal . 'Kay these are some more group specific findings . Uh the older people prefer dark colours . Uh they like recognisable shapes , and familiar material . And our surveys have indicated that especially wood is pretty much the material for older people . Um this is , this image will give you a little bit of an impression about um the look-and-feel that um the remote should have . Um this leads us to some personal preferences . Uh the remote control and the docking station should uh blend in in the in the room . Um so this would mean no uh eye-catching designs . Just keep it simple and {disfmarker} Well the docking station and small screen would be our main points of interest , because this would be the {disfmarker} These would uh be the innovativeness in the remote control . So this would be very important that we {vocalsound} at least include these features . Um well the trend-watchers I consulted advised that it b should be , the remote control and the docking station should be telephone-shaped . So you could imagine that uh the remote control will be standing up straight in the docking station . This is not really {disfmarker} This is pretty much a new shape to uh older people . So they would prefer uh a design where the remote control just lies flat in the docking station . So it would be kinda more telephone-shaped . Um besides that we would advise um to bring two editions , one with a wood-like colour and maybe feel , and one with a grey-black colour . The wood-like for the more uh exclusive people . People with more money . Uh the grey-black colour for well people with less means . That would be all .
Project Manager: Okay . Thank you . Any questions about the the trends ?
Marketing: Any questions ?
Project Manager: Mayb
User Interface: Mm no .
Project Manager: No ? Okay , we go on to the next one .
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um {vocalsound} 'kay um yeah . {gap} uh some uh research uh a about um designing of an interface . Um the uh last meeting uh we had a about um uh using a f few buttons . So uh um uh that's w what I what I want to uh uh to do in uh our design . So um finding an attractive uh way to control uh the remote control . Um the uh {disfmarker} I found some uh something about uh speech uh recognition . So maybe uh we can uh use uh that . Um {disfmarker} Uh and uh using a little uh display . So um findings . Um yeah just um we have just to focus on the primary um functions . So uh only uh buttons uh for uh sound , um for uh on-off , um uh shifting u up uh sa uh ca channel or uh down shifting down . Um uh let's see . Um yeah and {disfmarker} Uh {gap} we uh need some uh new a attractive functions uh uh which attract uh uh people for using it . So uh it's uh like a speak uh speech uh recognition and um a special button for selecting uh subtitles . Just uh what we uh mentioned uh last uh meeting . Um and yeah overall um user-friendly . So uh using uh large large buttons . Um {disfmarker} It's uh possible to uh uh to make um quite cheap uh system for uh speech uh recognition . Um you can think about um uh when you lost your um remote control , you can uh call it and um it gives an um sig signal . So uh uh yeah . And and uh for uh shifting up a sen uh c ch channel or uh for um uh putting out uh sound or something , you can uh just give a sign uh say um sound off or {disfmarker} A and uh yeah . Television uh put the sound off uh put the sound off uh . Um {disfmarker} Let's see . Uh yeah . I was thinking about the special uh button for uh subtitles , um just one button to keep it uh simple . Uh one push on the button uh you get uh uh small uh subtitles . Um double push push um , if double click , um so uh you get uh big uh subtitles , for uh people uh um uh which c f uh who can't uh read small uh subtitles . So uh {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} Yeah and w we have to keep uh in general buttons uh so um we've got um the buttons we have to use . The on-off , sound on-off , sound higher or lower , um the numbers , uh zero to uh uh nine . Um the general buttons m more general b one button for shifting up and shifting down uh channel . Um also we want to uh use a little d display uh for um for displaying the uh the functions of the buttons . And um we can uh build in a function f which uh shows the channel or some uh which the t television is on . So um made a little uh picture of uh it . Um {disfmarker} See . Um yeah . Just um we can put uh the on-off button uh over in this uh corner , um almost uh e all uh remote controls uh are using a on-off button on that place . Um so uh people uh will uh recognise uh um the button .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So um {disfmarker} D display uh of it , it's uh just a small display . Uh um you can put it uh on top . Um it's uh most uh uh place where people uh , most of {gap} looks at . So uh um and a special uh button for shifting up uh and uh shifting down uh channel , um it's uh on place where um the thumb of of the {disfmarker} So you you can uh easily uh shift up or shift down . Um it's uh quite uh handy place . So um and uh all the f functions for subtitle uh one button , uh for sound uh {disfmarker} Uh and uh for our design , um uh we have to discuss about it uh I think uh so uh the form of it so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: And that's it .
Project Manager: Uh thank you . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay . About the components design . Um for the energy source we can use a basic battery or , a as an optional thing , a kinetic energy , like in a watch , which you just shake and it produces energy . But if we choose for that option , the docking station would c become obsolete . So I don't think it's really an option . Uh for the casing , uh the uh manufacturing department can deliver uh a flat casing , single or double curved casing . It's really up the the design that we're gonna use . It's uh doesn't uh imply any technical restrictions . Uh as a case supplement , we could um , I thought of that l later , uh a rubber uh belt , like a anti-slip . Uh for the b buttons , we can use plastic or rubber . And the chip-set , um it says simple here , but it should be advanced , because we're using an L_C_D_ uh screen . And as uh the trend-watcher presentation showed , um people like wood , but it raises the price and it doesn't really fit the image , unless we would start two product lines . Form should follow function overall . Um well the kinetic energy source is rather fancy . But depends on what we want . I think we should disc discuss that . Um for the case , uh the supplement and the buttons , it really depends on the designer . And the chip-set uh really should be advanced because otherwise uh it would really be a simple uh remote control . And that's it .
Project Manager: Okay . Thank you . So that brings us to the discussion about our concepts . Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: 'Kay . So these are the points we have to discuss . Um first I think we can talk about the energy source , since that's um has a pretty big influence on production price , uh and image .
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: Uh so uh f I think first of all we have to see uh it is possible to introduce kinetic energy in our budget , I think .
Industrial Designer: Yes w there there are four options . We could use the basic normal battery .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh a hand dynamo .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay {gap} . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But I don't think that's {vocalsound} really an option .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You don't wanna swing before you can watch television .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh solar cells . But not every room is very light
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: so it's not a very good option .
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: Or the kinetic energy .
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay .
Marketing: And how exactly does the kinetic energy work ?
Industrial Designer: Well y you basically shake your remote , and then it powers up .
Marketing: You just {disfmarker} You use it and it works .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Nah .
Marketing: Okay . Well personally I don't think that older people like to shake their remote control before they use it .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . That's true .
Marketing: And besides that you mentioned it would make the docking station obsolete .
Industrial Designer: Oh .
Marketing: And I think our docking station could be one of the marketing issues with which we can um get great popularity for our product .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: But
Marketing: Um wel
User Interface: what's the function ? Yeah f for loading up uh the batteries {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah you could load up the batteries ,
User Interface: B b
Marketing: you could um insert the find the lost remote control function in there .
User Interface: Okay but uh it won't use uh much e energy uh I I believe . Uh it's uh just a small display so I believe uh it will run on one battery for um six months or f or or more . So I believe one battery uh is just enough .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh well I think uh elderly people just like to have everything in place .
Marketing: That's true . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And I don't think they they like uh remotes just laying everywhere in their rooms .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: So maybe a docking station will help them give the remote a place .
User Interface: Yeah . That's true . Yeah .
Project Manager: And also what you said . Um you can introduce voice recognition by uh finding back your remote .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: But I think it's um more efficient and cheaper to put it in the docking station .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So you have a but button on your docking station which you can push , and then it starts beeping .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: And then we can we can still use the voice recognition , but maybe then for only the the channels .
User Interface: Yeah . Uh .
Project Manager: That's safe .
Marketing: I'm wondering um what will the voice recognition mean for the production price ?
Project Manager: Yeah . That's a good point .
Industrial Designer: Mm I don't have any information on pricing . So I'll have to ask the manufacturing department .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: 'Cause in our earlier um market research , if you'd allow me to go to the flat board , SMARTboard .
Project Manager: Yeah , sure . Go ahead .
Marketing: Um so it was open here . Um we also um asked if w they would , if people would pay more for speech recognition in a remote control . Well you can see here , our target group would not do that .
Project Manager: No .
Marketing: So if that would increase the price for which we're selling our remote control
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: I would greatly advise not to do it .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: I think that would be better to uh insert in our other product , that is meant for the
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: younger people .
User Interface: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: But that would also go for the L_C_D_ screen then I guess . It's a bit higher percentage , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Um well this is Yeah but this is here the question was , would you prefer it . So that doesn't really mean they wouldn't pay extra for it . And on top of that the L_C_D_ screen would um help in making the remote control easier to use .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: And I think a voice recognition function would not make the remote control much easier to use .
Project Manager: Easier to use ? No , I think that's a good point .
User Interface: But uh is uh our uh research um about um bi large uh L_C_D_ sh uh display , or uh just a small one uh we want to uh use ?
Marketing: Um well this was for like an L_C_D_ screen like you would have on a on the the most advanced mobile phones .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: So pretty large .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I personally think the L_C_D_ screen we wanna use , with the extra information , I think nobody has anything against it . Because it's just uh some extra information ,
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: and it's easy to ignore as well . So if you don't wanna use it you just don't use it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: And um yeah I think the um {disfmarker} Maybe we have to uh discard the voice recognition . Because it will increase cost uh signifi uh significantly . And I don't think the {disfmarker} I don't think it will be a lot easier to use , as well .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So that brings us back to the energy . If we don't have the voice recognition , it will it won't use a lot of energy to use . Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So in that case we could use kinetic uh energy , but I think just a simple battery which you can reload on a docking station is just as good . And much cheaper as well .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And that's the best choice .
Project Manager: Okay let me just choose for the battery . That brings us to the chip .
Industrial Designer: Well there isn't any choice there because we're using the the the the display .
Project Manager: Just the advanced .
Industrial Designer: So it's gotta be advanced .
Project Manager: Okay
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: {gap} , advanced chip . And then we get to the point of the case . Um which brings us a little bit back to marketing as well . Uh if we wanna choose for wood or the black and grey . Or both ? Um as we saw there is not {disfmarker} Yeah wood is a lot more expensive to produce .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um but I think it will attract elderly people who wanna have something exclusive , which they can show off to their grandkids .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Look I've got a new remote control , and uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh I dunno .
Marketing: Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} And I think most important factor there is the wooden colour . So it wouldn't actually have to be wood ,
Project Manager: Yeah . That's right .
Marketing: if it's just
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: wood-coloured .
Project Manager: But with colour was a lot more expensive ? Or ?
Industrial Designer: Mm I dunno .
Project Manager: You don't know ?
Industrial Designer: I'll have to uh research .
Project Manager: I think so because {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: Probably .
Project Manager: It's a lot more difficult to to handle and to to get in the right shape .
User Interface: Mm . Uh is it possible uh to make um changeable uh case . So um uh you 'cause uh {disfmarker} Yeah with uh mobile phones uh uh so uh like the Nokia mobile phones , uh when you can change the case of it .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: So
Project Manager: Change the cases . Yeah .
User Interface: maybe it's possible uh possibility . So um um you have just to make one um standard um remote control , and um yeah you can sell uh few uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You can sell the cases .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . I think that's a very good option . Because um then you can advertise as well with the {disfmarker} Give your grandfather a new case for his remote control , or whatever . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Because that's a {disfmarker} it's something extra , it's something other remotes don't have ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: which we can get a great advantage point .
Marketing: Yeah that is true .
Project Manager: So and then you can make them with colour . Black and grey , other colours as well .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . We would have to look carefully into the design though .
Project Manager: Costs .
Marketing: 'Cause we would have to make one w uh control which would fit in with a wooden cover and a plastic cover . The more original one , or the more standard one .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah . So
Marketing: So that would {disfmarker}
Project Manager: you suggest we should design two different telephones on which you can apply , yeah {vocalsound} remote controls , on which you can apply different case covers , for example .
Marketing: Well I wouldn't design a telephone
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well no I think w we should just , we should then just design one um
Project Manager: Remote .
Marketing: one remote , but it would have to be fancy with either the wood cover or the plastic one .
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay .
Marketing: So , but that shouldn't be too much of a problem .
Project Manager: So everybody's okay with the changing covers ? I think that's a good uh good option .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: Changing case covers .
Marketing: Um I heard our Industrial Designer talk about uh flat , single and double curved .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: Could you explain that a little more ?
Industrial Designer: Well the the general like most older remotes are flat , just straight .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And uh our d manufacturing department can also deliver single curved or double curved ca curved cases .
Marketing: And what would single curved and double curved mean ?
Industrial Designer: Um it would just only affect the form , for as far as I know . So it's j really just up to the design department what we're gonna use . It doesn't really matter for the price or the functionality .
Marketing: Okay . So we can pretty much just do whatever we want .
Industrial Designer: Pick one you like , yes .
Project Manager: Mm . Okay .
Marketing: 'Kay . That's good .
Project Manager: Uh but the form has to be um {disfmarker} It has to {disfmarker} It's has to be possible to stand up ? Or just only to lie down ?
Marketing: No just to lie down .
User Interface: {gap} okay .
Project Manager: And the the cover of the the docking station is also
Marketing: We'll go for that .
Project Manager: on top of the television then ? Or not ?
Marketing: Well or besides it .
Project Manager: And you can just yeah then click it in . That's okay . Um so the interface . What type of interface do we want to use ? Um maybe you can make a little drawing of it on the
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: on the the board .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Does somebody have ideas for a form or
User Interface: Uh we can just use the regular form of it , but it's um not quite uh fancy . So um {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: Um you uh said you wanted to put the um changing channels button on the right side ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: so you could , so your thumb would be easily {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Well uh I think that was a very good point 'cause I pointed out earlier that a lot of remotes cause R_S_I_ .
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: So that would be great for that . Um I thought maybe we could just make one of those buttons on both the left and the right side .
User Interface: For uh {disfmarker} Uh for {disfmarker}
Marketing: For left-handed users also .
User Interface: Yeah yeah .
Project Manager: Yep .
User Interface: Mm . Yeah we Is it possible to um program it s so uh you got on the left side uh or on the right side uh buttons for for shifting u up and shifting up ? And on the uh other uh {vocalsound} uh o other side uh buttons for uh shifting , uh for for the sound ? Or {disfmarker} Or isn't it ?
Marketing: For the volume . Um well
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: that could {gap} Yeah we could do that but I'm not sure if that would be very good for the easy , ease of use .
Project Manager: Usabili Yeah ease of use will be a lot more difficult ,
User Interface: Yeah okay .
Project Manager: and then it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But if we would make um a changing channels and changing volume button on both sides , that would certainly yield great options for the design of the remote .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: 'Cause it could be made all symmetrical and stuff .
User Interface: Yeah
Project Manager: But you have extra buttons .
User Interface: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So people can get confused .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: That is true .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Especially if they have the same writings on it .
User Interface: See um yeah . Or we have to make a left uh {disfmarker} For lefties
Project Manager: Can't we make uh {disfmarker} Can't we make a remote which you can flip over and use on the same
User Interface: and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: functions as the normal one ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} You mean um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Then you have to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah if {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Let's see if I ca A blank one . And then you get {disfmarker} Here's a little L_C_D_ screen . Uh now I have to think . It's a plus and a min . No it's not very handy I think . Because the plus and the min will be opposite
User Interface: Mm no .
Project Manager: and all kinds of {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No that's not gonna work . I guess . Maybe we should {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . But is it a problem that left-handed persons use a different hand ? I think the functions are that basic that nobody should have any problems with uh choosing a channel
Marketing: Yeah . That is true .
Project Manager: or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . It's just uh u using uh your thumb .
Project Manager: Y yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: So um it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think we could just uh leave it a normal shape .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh but maybe we have to make it a l a bit more fancy . In one or ano another way .
User Interface: Yeah . Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think we should start by by choosing a case . Because that's the basis you're building on .
User Interface: Yeah yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um yeah
Industrial Designer: So I could draw them out .
Project Manager: just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Let's look at the flat case . Oh . It's from the side so it's rather normal .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: The the single curved so I'm not really sure what they're gonna look like , but I think it's something like this . So this type should be better for you or better {disfmarker} Should prevent repetitive strain injury a bit .
Project Manager: Easier ?
Industrial Designer: And the double curved s looks something like this I guess .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: So th those are the three options we have .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: I suggest um the single curved , because maybe the curve is pretty good to put the the screen in .
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: Uh so that elderly people can uh use the remote control and at the same time look easily at the screen , because it's a bit , it has a bit of a angle .
User Interface: So um {disfmarker} Do you say this um {disfmarker} S uh {disfmarker} Uh you got like uh sort of a {disfmarker} I believe {disfmarker} {gap} There ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So um you want to put a display over here ? Or not ?
Project Manager: Yeah . I think so . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . Um {disfmarker} Yeah . Uh
Project Manager: But now it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: we can make it um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do you have it upside down or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm ?
Project Manager: Do you have it
User Interface: That's the top .
Project Manager: this that's top ? Okay .
User Interface: So uh this top . This down . Um maybe it's possible to uh make this side like um {disfmarker} Let's see . Um {disfmarker} Colour uh okay . Uh to make this side um like mm the right colour .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um bit like so uh um in the form of your hand . So um {disfmarker} Uh it's an {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: So so the remote control have to um lay in your hand . So uh it's possib um yeah for s so and
Project Manager: So get your mouse . Yeah .
User Interface: And to put uh the the buttons for um changing uh the channel uh over here uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . That's a good one . But I think it's better to put the screen uh on top .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh rem
Project Manager: So just flip it a hundred and eighty degrees around then you get {disfmarker} {gap} here .
User Interface: Yeah but this place um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: If you can have this one , you turn it like this . And then flip it upside down .
User Interface: Uh it's {disfmarker} Yeah I dunno um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Because uh maybe your hand is in the way , if you have the display here .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: It's more logical to have it on top as well
Project Manager: I think i
Industrial Designer: because , like on your mobile phone , it's always above .
User Interface: Yeah so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: On top .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh maybe you should just s start on a blank page .
Project Manager: {gap} . So
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: then we get {disfmarker} Here's {disfmarker} That's the curve .
User Interface: Five minutes . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Here the display , and then buttons . Yeah and then we can have a little bit off here and here maybe . Just that's for left hand and right hand users .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: And then h the rest of the buttons over here .
User Interface: Yeah . But um the on-off button , um still on the top uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah still here
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: jus
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: That's {disfmarker}
Marketing: And I'd prefer the corners to be round .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . 'Kay .
Project Manager: Should be more bit more friendly ,
Marketing: Think that would be better .
Project Manager: yeah .
Marketing: Friendly on the eye .
Project Manager: 'Kay . Supplements . That's okay . Where's my mouse ? Then {disfmarker} We've got a general idea of the concepts and the materials we're going to use . So now for the next meeting uh we'll have to look at the look-and-feel design . It's important that the corporate design image uh is going to be in the remote . So check out the corporate website maybe . The user interface design , it's the same story . And product evaluation . So the Industrial Designer and User Interface Designer are going to work together on this one . But you're going to get your instructions I think sended by the coach . So just um I will put these um minutes on the in the folder .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: And then we're going to uh try to finish our project , and uh make a good design for all the grandfathers and grandmothers , I think .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Which are {disfmarker} Uh let's see . I'm not sure if you're going to start right away to work together or {disfmarker} I think you're going to fill in the questionnaires first .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: And then you'll get a message .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So that's uh basically it . Maybe this one ? Then we can save this one in the folders group . Uh yes , it's here .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} SMARTboard , there it it . So if you wanna have a look at it , it's over there in the projects folder .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: And then I guess we'll start in thirty minutes again . Thank you .
Marketing: Very good .
User Interface: Okay . | |
doc_189 | PhD A: OK , we 're going .
PhD D: Damn .
Professor C: And uh Hans - uh , Hans - Guenter will be here , um , I think by next {disfmarker} next Tuesday or so .
PhD B: Oh , OK .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: So he 's {disfmarker} he 's going to be here for about three weeks ,
PhD B: Oh ! That 's nice .
PhD A: Just for a visit ?
Professor C: and , uh {disfmarker} Uh , we 'll see .
PhD A: Huh .
Professor C: We might {disfmarker} might end up with some longer collaboration or something .
PhD A: Cool .
Professor C: So he 's gonna look in on everything we 're doing
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: and give us his {disfmarker} his thoughts . And so it 'll be another {disfmarker} another good person looking at things .
PhD B: Oh . Hmm .
Grad E: Th - that 's his spectral subtraction group ?
Professor C: Yeah ,
Grad E: Is that right ?
Professor C: yeah .
Grad E: Oh , OK . So I guess I should probably talk to him a bit too ?
Professor C: Oh , yeah . Yeah . Yeah . No , he 'll be around for three weeks . He 's , uh , um , very , very , easygoing , easy to talk to , and , uh , very interested in everything .
PhD A: Really nice guy .
Professor C: Yeah , yeah .
PhD B: Yeah , we met him in Amsterdam .
Professor C: Yeah , yeah , he 's been here before .
PhD B: Oh , OK .
Professor C: I mean , he 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: Wh - Back when I was a grad student he was here for a , uh , uh {disfmarker} a year or {comment} n six months .
PhD B: I haven't noticed him .
Professor C: N nine months .
PhD A: Something like that .
Professor C: Something like that .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah . Yeah . He 's {disfmarker} he 's done a couple stays here .
PhD B: Hmm .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD A: So , um , {vocalsound} {comment} I guess we got lots to catch up on . And we haven't met for a couple of weeks . We didn't meet last week , Morgan . Um , I went around and talked to everybody , and it seemed like they {disfmarker} they had some new results but rather than them coming up and telling me I figured we should just wait a week and they can tell both {disfmarker} you know , all of us . So , um , why don't we {disfmarker} why don't we start with you , Dave , and then , um , we can go on .
Grad E: Oh , OK .
PhD A: So .
Grad E: So , um , since we 're looking at putting this , um {disfmarker} mean log m magnitude spectral subtraction , um , into the SmartKom system , I I did a test seeing if , um , it would work using past only {comment} and plus the present to calculate the mean . So , I did a test , um , {vocalsound} where I used twelve seconds from the past and the present frame to , um , calculate the mean . And {disfmarker}
PhD A: Twelve seconds {disfmarker} Twelve {disfmarker} twelve seconds back from the current {pause} frame , is that what you mean ?
Grad E: Uh {disfmarker} Twelve seconds , um , counting back from the end of the current frame ,
PhD A: OK , OK .
Grad E: yeah . So it was , um , twen I think it was twenty - one frames and that worked out to about twelve seconds .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: And compared to , um , do using a twelve second centered window , I think there was a drop in performance but it was just a slight drop .
PhD A: Hmm !
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Is {disfmarker} is that right ?
Professor C: Um , yeah , I mean , it was pretty {disfmarker} it was pretty tiny . Yeah .
Grad E: Uh - huh . So that was encouraging . And , um , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} um , that 's encouraging for {disfmarker} for the idea of using it in an interactive system like And , um , another issue I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm thinking about is in the SmartKom system . So say twe twelve seconds in the earlier test seemed like a good length of time , but what happens if you have less than twelve seconds ? And , um {disfmarker} So I w bef before , um {disfmarker} Back in May , I did some experiments using , say , two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . In those I trained the models using mean subtraction with the means calculated over two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . And , um , here , I was curious , what if I trained the models using twelve seconds but I f I gave it a situation where the test set I was {disfmarker} subtracted using two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . And , um {disfmarker} So I did that for about three different conditions . And , um {disfmarker} I mean , I th I think it was , um , four se I think {disfmarker} I think it was , um , something like four seconds and , um , six seconds , and eight seconds . Something like that . And it seems like it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it hurts compared to if you actually train the models {comment} using th that same length of time but it {disfmarker} it doesn't hurt that much . Um , u usually less than point five percent , although I think I did see one where it was a point eight percent or so rise in word error rate . But this is , um , w where , um , even if I train on the , uh , model , and mean subtracted it with the same length of time as in the test , it {disfmarker} the word error rate is around , um , ten percent or nine percent . So it doesn't seem like that big a d a difference .
Professor C: But it {disfmarker} but looking at it the other way , isn't it {disfmarker} what you 're saying that it didn't help you to have the longer time for training , if you were going to have a short time for {disfmarker}
Grad E: That {disfmarker} that 's true . Um ,
Professor C: I mean , why would you do it , if you knew that you were going to have short windows in testing .
Grad E: Wa
PhD A: Yeah , it seems like for your {disfmarker} I mean , in normal situations you would never get twelve seconds of speech , right ? I 'm not {disfmarker} e u
PhD B: You need twelve seconds in the past to estimate , right ? Or l or you 're looking at six sec {disfmarker} seconds in future and six in {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: Um , t twelve s
Professor C: No , total .
Grad E: N n uh {disfmarker} For the test it 's just twelve seconds in the past .
PhD B: No , it 's all {disfmarker} Oh , OK .
PhD A: Is this twelve seconds of {disfmarker} uh , regardless of speech or silence ? Or twelve seconds of speech ?
Grad E: Of {disfmarker} of speech .
PhD A: OK .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: The other thing , um , which maybe relates a little bit to something else we 've talked about in terms of windowing and so on is , that , um , I wonder if you trained with twelve seconds , and then when you were two seconds in you used two seconds , and when you were four seconds in , you used four seconds , and when you were six {disfmarker} and you basically build up to the twelve seconds . So that if you have very long utterances you have the best ,
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: but if you have shorter utterances you use what you can .
Grad E: Right . And that 's actually what we 're planning to do in
Professor C: OK . Yeah .
Grad E: But {disfmarker} s so I g So I guess the que the question I was trying to get at with those experiments is , " does it matter what models you use ? Does it matter how much time y you use to calculate the mean when you were , um , tra doing the training data ? "
Professor C: Right . But I mean the other thing is that that 's {disfmarker} I mean , the other way of looking at this , going back to , uh , mean cepstral subtraction versus RASTA kind of things , is that you could look at mean cepstral subtraction , especially the way you 're doing it , uh , as being a kind of filter . And so , the other thing is just to design a filter . You know , basically you 're {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're doing a high - pass filter or a band - pass filter of some sort and {disfmarker} and just design a filter . And then , you know , a filter will have a certain behavior and you loo can look at the start up behavior when you start up with nothing .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And {disfmarker} and , you know , it will , uh , if you have an IIR filter for instance , it will , um , uh , not behave in the steady - state way that you would like it to behave until you get a long enough period , but , um , uh , by just constraining yourself to have your filter be only a subtraction of the mean , you 're kind of , you know , tying your hands behind your back because there 's {disfmarker} filters have all sorts of be temporal and spectral behaviors .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And the only thing , you know , consistent that we know about is that you want to get rid of the very low frequency component .
Grad E: Hmm .
PhD B: But do you really want to calculate the mean ? And you neglect all the silence regions {comment} or you just use everything that 's twelve seconds , and {disfmarker}
Grad E: Um , you {disfmarker} do you mean in my tests so far ?
PhD B: Ye - yeah .
Grad E: Most of the silence has been cut out .
PhD B: OK .
Grad E: Just {disfmarker} There 's just inter - word silences .
PhD B: Mm - hmm . And they are , like , pretty short . Shor
Grad E: Pretty short .
PhD B: Yeah , OK .
Grad E: Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah . Mm - hmm . So you really need a lot of speech to estimate the mean of it .
Grad E: Well , if I only use six seconds , it still works pretty well .
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah . Uh - huh .
Grad E: I saw in my test before . I was trying twelve seconds cuz that was the best {pause} in my test before
PhD B: OK .
Grad E: and that increasing past twelve seconds didn't seem to help .
PhD B: Hmm . Huh .
Grad E: th um , yeah , I guess it 's something I need to play with more to decide how to set that up for the SmartKom system . Like , may maybe if I trained on six seconds it would work better when I only had two seconds or four seconds , and {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah . Yeah . And , um {disfmarker}
Grad E: OK .
Professor C: Yeah , and again , if you take this filtering perspective and if you essentially have it build up over time . I mean , if you computed means over two and then over four , and over six , essentially what you 're getting at is a kind of , uh , ramp up of a filter anyway . And so you may {disfmarker} may just want to think of it as a filter . But , uh , if you do that , then , um , in practice somebody using the SmartKom system , one would think {comment} {disfmarker} if they 're using it for a while , it means that their first utterance , instead of , you know , getting , uh , a forty percent error rate reduction , they 'll get a {disfmarker} uh , over what , uh , you 'd get without this , uh , um , policy , uh , you get thirty percent . And then the second utterance that you give , they get the full {disfmarker} you know , uh , full benefit of it if it 's this ongoing thing .
PhD A: Oh , so you {disfmarker} you cache the utterances ? That 's how you get your , uh {disfmarker}
Professor C: Well , I 'm saying in practice , yeah ,
Grad E: M
PhD A: Ah . OK .
Professor C: that 's {disfmarker} If somebody 's using a system to ask for directions or something ,
PhD A: OK .
Professor C: you know , they 'll say something first . And {disfmarker} and to begin with if it doesn't get them quite right , ma m maybe they 'll come back and say , " excuse me ? "
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: uh , or some {disfmarker} I mean it should have some policy like that anyway .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And {disfmarker} and , uh , uh , in any event they might ask a second question . And it 's not like what he 's doing doesn't , uh , improve things . It does improve things , just not as much as he would like . And so , uh , there 's a higher probability of it making an error , uh , in the first utterance .
PhD A: What would be really cool is if you could have {disfmarker} uh , this probably {disfmarker} users would never like this {disfmarker} but if you had {disfmarker} could have a system where , {vocalsound} before they began to use it they had to introduce themselves , verbally .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: You know . " Hi , my name is so - and - so ,
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD A: I 'm from blah - blah - blah . " And you could use that initial speech to do all these adaptations and {disfmarker}
Professor C: Right .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Oh , the other thing I guess which {disfmarker} which , uh , I don't know much about {disfmarker} as much as I should about the rest of the system but {disfmarker} but , um , couldn't you , uh , if you {disfmarker} if you sort of did a first pass I don't know what kind of , uh , uh , capability we have at the moment for {disfmarker} for doing second passes on {disfmarker} on , uh , uh , some kind of little {disfmarker} small lattice , or a graph , or confusion network , or something . But if you did first pass with , um , the {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} either without the mean sub subtraction or with a {disfmarker} a very short time one , and then , um , once you , uh , actually had the whole utterance in , if you did , um , the , uh , uh , longer time version then , based on everything that you had , um , and then at that point only used it to distinguish between , you know , top N , um , possible utterances or something , you {disfmarker} you might {disfmarker} it might not take very much time . I mean , I know in the large vocabulary stu uh , uh , systems , people were evaluating on in the past , some people really pushed everything in to make it in one pass but other people didn't and had multiple passes . And , um , the argument , um , against multiple passes was u u has often been " but we want to this to be r you know {disfmarker} have a nice interactive response " . And the counterargument to that which , say , uh , BBN I think had , {comment} was " yeah , but our second responses are {disfmarker} second , uh , passes and third passes are really , really fast " .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: So , um , if {disfmarker} if your second pass takes a millisecond who cares ? Um .
Grad E: S so , um , the {disfmarker} the idea of the second pass would be waiting till you have more recorded speech ? Or {disfmarker} ?
Professor C: Yeah , so if it turned out to be a problem , that you didn't have enough speech because you need a longer {disfmarker} longer window to do this processing , then , uh , one tactic is {disfmarker} you know , looking at the larger system and not just at the front - end stuff {comment} {disfmarker} is to take in , um , the speech with some simpler mechanism or shorter time mechanism ,
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: um , do the best you can , and come up with some al possible alternates of what might have been said . And , uh , either in the form of an N - best list or in the form of a lattice , or {disfmarker} or confusion network , or whatever .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And then the decoding of that is much , much faster or can be much , much faster if it isn't a big bushy network . And you can decode that now with speech that you 've actually processed using this longer time , uh , subtraction .
Grad E: Mmm .
Professor C: So I mean , it 's {disfmarker} it 's common that people do this sort of thing where they do more things that are more complex or require looking over more time , whatever , in some kind of second pass .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . OK .
Professor C: um , and again , if the second pass is really , really fast {disfmarker} Uh , another one I 've heard of is {disfmarker} is in {disfmarker} in connected digit stuff , um , going back and l and through backtrace and finding regions that are considered to be a d a digit , but , uh , which have very low energy .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . OK .
Professor C: So , uh {disfmarker} I mean , there 's lots of things you can do in second passes , at all sorts of levels . Anyway , I 'm throwing too many things out . But .
PhD A: So is that , uh {disfmarker} that it ?
Grad E: I guess that 's it .
PhD A: OK , uh , do you wanna go , Sunil ?
PhD B: Yep . Um , so , the last two weeks was , like {disfmarker} So I 've been working on that Wiener filtering . And , uh , found that , uh , s single {disfmarker} like , I just do a s normal Wiener filtering , like the standard method of Wiener filtering . And that doesn't actually give me any improvement over like {disfmarker} I mean , uh , b it actually improves over the baseline but it 's not like {disfmarker} it doesn't meet something like fifty percent or something . So , I 've been playing with the v
PhD A: Improves over the base line MFCC system ? Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . So , um {disfmarker} So that 's {disfmarker} The improvement is somewhere around , like , thirty percent over the baseline .
Professor C: Is that using {disfmarker} in combination with something else ?
PhD B: No , just {disfmarker} just one stage Wiener filter
Professor C: With {disfmarker} with a {disfmarker}
PhD B: which is a standard Wiener filter .
Professor C: No , no , but I mean in combination with our on - line normalization or with the LDA ?
PhD B: Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . So I just plug in the Wiener filtering .
Professor C: Oh , OK .
PhD B: I mean , in the s in our system , where {disfmarker}
PhD A: Oh , OK .
PhD B: So , I di i di
Professor C: So , does it g does that mean it gets worse ? Or {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: No . It actually improves over the baseline of not having a Wiener filter in the whole system . Like I have an LDA f LDA plus on - line normalization , and then I plug in the Wiener filter in that ,
Professor C: Yeah ?
PhD B: so it improves over not having the Wiener filter . So it improves but it {disfmarker} it doesn't take it like be beyond like thirty percent over the baseline . So {disfmarker}
Professor C: But that 's what I 'm confused about , cuz I think {disfmarker} I thought that our system was more like forty percent without the Wiener filtering .
PhD B: No , it 's like , uh ,
PhD D: Mmm .
PhD A: Is this with the v new VAD ?
PhD B: well , these are not {disfmarker} No , it 's the old VAD . So my baseline was , {vocalsound} uh , {vocalsound} nine {disfmarker} This is like {disfmarker} w the baseline is ninety - five point six eight , and eighty - nine , and {disfmarker}
Professor C: So I mean , if you can do all these in word errors it 's a lot {disfmarker} a lot easier actually .
PhD B: What was that ? Sorry ?
Professor C: If you do all these in word error rates it 's a lot easier , right ?
PhD B: Oh , OK , OK , OK . Errors , right , I don't have .
Professor C: OK , cuz then you can figure out the percentages .
PhD B: It 's all accuracies .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: The baseline is something similar to a w I mean , the t the {disfmarker} the baseline that you are talking about is the MFCC baseline , right ?
PhD B: The t yeah , there are two baselines .
PhD D: Or {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: OK . So the baseline {disfmarker} One baseline is MFCC baseline that {disfmarker} When I said thirty percent improvement it 's like MFCC baseline .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so what 's it start on ? The MFCC baseline is {disfmarker} is what ? Is at what level ?
PhD B: It 's the {disfmarker} it 's just the mel frequency and that 's it .
Professor C: No , what 's {disfmarker} what 's the number ?
PhD B: Uh , so I I don't have that number here . OK , OK , OK , I have it here . Uh , it 's the VAD plus the baseline actually . I 'm talking about the {disfmarker} the MFCC plus I do a frame dropping on it . So that 's like {disfmarker} the word error rate is like four point three . Like {disfmarker} Ten point seven .
Professor C: Four point three . What 's ten point seven ?
PhD B: It 's a medium misma OK , sorry . There 's a well ma well matched , medium mismatched , and a high matched .
Professor C: Ah .
PhD B: So I don't have the {disfmarker} like the {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD B: So {disfmarker}
Professor C: OK , four point three , ten point seven ,
PhD B: And forty forty .
Professor C: and {disfmarker}
PhD B: Forty percent is the high mismatch .
Professor C: OK .
PhD B: And that becomes like four point three {disfmarker}
Professor C: Not changed .
PhD B: Yeah , it 's like ten point one . Still the same . And the high mismatch is like eighteen point five .
Professor C: Eighteen point five .
PhD B: Five .
Professor C: And what were you just describing ?
PhD B: Oh , the one is {disfmarker} this one is just the baseline plus the , uh , Wiener filter plugged into it .
Professor C: But where 's the , uh , on - line normalization and so on ?
PhD B: Oh , OK . So {disfmarker} Sorry . So , with the {disfmarker} with the on - line normalization , the performance was , um , ten {disfmarker} OK , so it 's like four point three . Uh , and again , that 's the ba the ten point , uh , four and twenty point one . That was with on - line normalization and LDA . So the h well matched has like literally not changed by adding on - line or LDA on it . But the {disfmarker} I mean , even the medium mismatch is pretty much the same . And the high mismatch was improved by twenty percent absolute .
Professor C: OK , and what kind of number {disfmarker} an and what are we talking about here ?
PhD B: It 's the It - it 's Italian .
Professor C: Is this TI - digits
PhD B: I 'm talking about Italian ,
Professor C: or {disfmarker} Italian ?
PhD B: yeah .
Professor C: And what did {disfmarker} So , what was the , um , uh , corresponding number , say , for , um , uh , the Alcatel system for instance ?
PhD B: Mmm .
Professor C: Do you know ?
PhD D: Yeah , so it looks to be , um {disfmarker}
PhD B: You have it ?
PhD D: Yep , it 's three point four , uh , eight point , uh , seven , and , uh , thirteen point seven .
PhD B: Yep .
Professor C: OK .
PhD B: So {disfmarker} Thanks .
Professor C: OK .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: OK .
PhD B: So , uh , this is the single stage Wiener filter , with {disfmarker} The noise estimation was based on first ten frames .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Actually I started with {disfmarker} using the VAD to estimate the noise and then I found that it works {disfmarker} it doesn't work for Finnish and Spanish because the VAD endpoints are not good to estimate the noise because it cuts into the speech sometimes , so I end up overestimating the noise and getting a worse result . So it works only for Italian by u for {disfmarker} using a VAD to estimate noise .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: It works for Italian because the VAD was trained on Italian .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So , uh {disfmarker} so this was , uh {disfmarker} And so this was giving {disfmarker} um , this {disfmarker} this was like not improving a lot on this baseline of not having the Wiener filter on it . And , so , uh , I ran this stuff with one more stage of Wiener filtering on it but the second time , what I did was I {disfmarker} estimated the new Wiener filter based on the cleaned up speech , and did , uh , smoothing in the frequency to {disfmarker} to reduce the variance {disfmarker}
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: I mean , I have {disfmarker} I 've {disfmarker} I 've observed there are , like , a lot of bumps in the frequency when I do this Wiener filtering which is more like a musical noise or something . And so by adding another stage of Wiener filtering , the results on the SpeechDat - Car was like , um {disfmarker} So , I still don't have the word error rate . I 'm sorry about it . But the overall improvement was like fifty - six point four six . This was again using ten frames of noise estimate and two stage of Wiener filtering . And the rest is like the LDA plu and the on - line normalization all remaining the same . Uh , so this was , like , compared to , uh , uh {disfmarker} Fifty - seven is what you got by using the French Telecom system , right ?
PhD D: No , I don't think so .
PhD B: Y i
PhD D: Is it on Italian ?
PhD B: No , this is over the whole SpeechDat - Car . So {disfmarker}
PhD D: Oh , yeah , fifty - seven {disfmarker}
PhD B: point {disfmarker}
PhD D: Right .
PhD B: Yeah , so the new {disfmarker} the new Wiener filtering schema is like {disfmarker} some fifty - six point four six which is like one percent still less than what you got using the French Telecom system .
PhD D: Uh - huh . Mm - hmm .
Professor C: But it 's a pretty similar number in any event .
PhD B: It 's very similar .
Professor C: Yeah . But again , you 're {disfmarker} you 're more or less doing what they were doing , right ?
PhD B: It 's {disfmarker} it 's different in a sense like I 'm actually cleaning up the cleaned up spectrum which they 're not doing . They 're d what they 're doing is , they have two stage {disfmarker} stages of estimating the Wiener filter , but {disfmarker} the final filter , what they do is they {disfmarker} they take it to their time domain by doing an inverse Fourier transform .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD B: And they filter the original signal using that fil filter ,
Professor C: Uh - huh .
PhD B: which is like final filter is acting on the input noisy speech rather than on the cleaned up . So this is more like I 'm doing Wiener filter twice , but the only thing is that the second time I 'm actually smoothing the filter and then cleaning up the cleaned up spectrum first level . And so that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's what the difference is .
Professor C: OK .
PhD B: And actually I tried it on s the original clean {disfmarker} I mean , the original spectrum where , like , I {disfmarker} the second time I estimate the filter but actually clean up the noisy speech rather the c s first {disfmarker} output of the first stage and that doesn't {disfmarker} seems to be a {disfmarker} giving , I mean , that much improvement . I {disfmarker} I didn didn't run it for the whole case . And {disfmarker} and what I t what I tried was , by using the same thing but {disfmarker} Uh , so we actually found that the VAD is very , like , crucial . I mean , just by changing the VAD itself gives you the {disfmarker} a lot of improvement
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: by instead of using the current VAD , if you just take up the VAD output from the channel zero , {comment} when {disfmarker} instead of using channel zero and channel one , because that was the p that was the reason why I was not getting a lot of improvement for estimating {comment} the noise . So I just used the channel zero VAD to estimate the noise so that it gives me some reliable mar markers for this noise estimation .
Professor C: What 's a channel zero VAD ?
PhD B: Um ,
Professor C: I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm confused about that .
PhD B: so , it 's like {disfmarker}
PhD D: So it 's the close - talking microphone .
PhD B: Yeah , the close - talking without {disfmarker}
Professor C: Oh , oh , oh , oh .
PhD B: So because the channel zero and channel one are like the same speech , but only w I mean , the same endpoints .
Professor C:
PhD B: But the only thing is that the speech is very noisy for channel one , so you can actually use the output of the channel zero for channel one for the VAD . I mean , that 's like a cheating method .
Professor C: Right . I mean , so a are they going to pro What are they doing to do , do we know yet ? about {disfmarker} as far as what they 're {disfmarker} what the rules are going to be and what we can use ?
PhD D: Yeah , so actually I received a {disfmarker} a new document , describing this .
PhD B: Yeah , that 's {disfmarker}
PhD D: And what they did finally is to , mmm , uh , not to align the utterances but to perform recognition , um , only on the close - talking microphone ,
PhD B: Which is the channel zero .
PhD D: and to take the result of the recognition to get the boundaries uh , of speech .
Professor C: So it 's not like that 's being done in one place or one time .
PhD D: And {disfmarker}
Professor C: That 's {disfmarker} that 's just a rule and we 'd {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you were permitted to do that . Is {disfmarker} is that it ?
PhD D: Uh , I think they will send , um , files but we {disfmarker} we don't {disfmarker} Well , apparently {disfmarker}
Professor C: Oh , so they will send files so everybody will have the same boundaries to work with ?
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD B: But actually their alignment actually is not seems to be improving in like on all cases .
Professor C: OK .
PhD D: Oh , i Yeah , so what happened here is that , um , the overall improvement that they have with this method {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} Well , to be more precise , what they have is , they have these alignments and then they drop the beginning silence and {disfmarker} and the end silence but they keep , uh , two hundred milliseconds before speech and two hundred after speech . And they keep the speech pauses also . Um , and the overall improvement over the MFCC baseline So , when they just , uh , add this frame dropping in addition it 's r uh , forty percent , right ?
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Fourteen percent , I mean .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Yeah , which is {disfmarker}
PhD D: Um , which is , um , t which is the overall improvement . But in some cases it doesn't improve at all . Like , uh , y do you remember which case ?
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: It gives like negative {disfmarker} Well , in {disfmarker} in like some Italian and TI - digits ,
PhD D: Yeah , some @ @ .
PhD B: right ?
PhD D: Right .
PhD B: Yeah . So by using the endpointed speech , actually it 's worse than the baseline in some instances , which could be due to the word pattern .
PhD D: Mmm . Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah ,
PhD D: And {disfmarker} Yeah , the other thing also is that fourteen percent is less than what you obtain using a real VAD .
PhD B: Yeah , our neural net {disfmarker}
PhD D: So with without cheating like this .
PhD B: Yeah , yeah .
PhD D: So {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} So I think this shows that there is still work {disfmarker} Uh , well , working on the VAD is still {disfmarker} still important I think .
Professor C: Yeah , c
PhD D: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD A: Can I ask just a {disfmarker} a high level question ? Can you just say like one or two sentences about Wiener filtering and why {disfmarker} why are people doing that ?
PhD B: Hmm .
PhD A: What 's {disfmarker} what 's the deal with that ?
PhD B: OK , so the Wiener filter , it 's {disfmarker} it 's like {disfmarker} it 's like you try to minimize {disfmarker} I mean , so the basic principle of Wiener filter is like you try to minimize the , uh , d uh , difference between the noisy signal and the clean signal if you have two channels . Like let 's say you have a clean t signal and you have an additional channel where you know what is the noisy signal .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And then you try to minimize the error between these two .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So that 's the basic principle . And you get {disfmarker} you can do that {disfmarker} I mean , if {disfmarker} if you have only a c noisy signal , at a level which you , you w try to estimate the noise from the w assuming that the first few frames are noise or if you have a w voice activity detector , uh , you estimate the noise spectrum .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And then you {disfmarker}
PhD A: Do you assume the noise is the same ?
PhD B: Yeah . in {disfmarker} yeah , after the speech starts .
PhD A: Uh - huh .
PhD B: So {disfmarker} but that 's not the case in , uh , many {disfmarker} many of our cases but it works reasonably well .
PhD A: I see .
PhD B: And {disfmarker} and then you What you do is you , uh b fff . So again , I can write down some of these eq Oh , OK . Yeah . And then you do this {disfmarker} uh , this is the transfer function of the Wiener filter , so " SF " is a clean speech spectrum , power spectrum
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And " N " is the noisy power spectrum . And so this is the transfer function .
Professor C: Right
PhD B: And ,
Professor C: actually , I guess {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD B: And then you multiply your noisy power spectrum with this . You get an estimate of the clean power spectrum .
PhD A: I see . OK .
PhD B: So {disfmarker} but the thing is that you have to estimate the SF from the noisy spectrum , what you have . So you estimate the NF from the initial noise portions and then you subtract that from the current noisy spectrum to get an estimate of the SF . So sometimes that becomes zero because you do you don't have a true estimate of the noise . So the f filter will have like sometimes zeros in it
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: because some frequency values will be zeroed out because of that . And that creates a lot of discontinuities across the spectrum because @ @ the filter . So , uh , so {disfmarker} that 's what {disfmarker} that was just the first stage of Wiener filtering that I tried .
PhD A: So is this , um , basically s uh , similar to just regular spectral subtraction ?
PhD B: It {disfmarker}
Professor C: It 's all pretty related ,
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: yeah . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} there 's a di there 's a whole class of techniques where you try in some sense to minimize the noise .
PhD A: Uh - huh .
Professor C: And it 's typically a mean square sense , uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} uh , i in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some way . And , uh {disfmarker} uh , spectral subtraction is {disfmarker} is , uh {disfmarker} uh , one approach to it .
PhD A: Do people use the Wiener filtering in combination with the spectral subtraction typically , or is i are they sort of competing techniques ?
PhD B: Not seen . They are very s similar techniques .
PhD A: Yeah . O oh , OK .
PhD B: So it 's like I haven't seen anybody using s Wiener filter with spectral subtraction .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: I see , I see .
Professor C: I mean , in the long run you 're doing the same thing
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: but y but there you make different approximations , and {disfmarker} in spectral subtraction , for instance , there 's a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} an estimation factor .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor C: You sometimes will figure out what the noise is and you 'll multiply that noise spectrum times some constant and subtract that rather than {disfmarker} and sometimes people {disfmarker} even though this really should be in the power domain , sometimes people s work in the magnitude domain because it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it works better .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And , uh , uh , you know .
PhD A: So why did you choose , uh , Wiener filtering over some other {disfmarker} one of these other techniques ?
PhD B: Uh , the reason was , like , we had this choice of using spectral subtraction , Wiener filtering , and there was one more thing which I which I 'm trying , is this sub space approach . So , Stephane is working on spectral subtraction .
PhD A: Oh , OK .
PhD B: So I picked up {disfmarker}
PhD A: So you 're sort of trying @ @ them all .
PhD B: Y Yeah ,
PhD A: Ah ,
PhD B: we just wanted to have a few noise production {disfmarker} compensation techniques
PhD A: I see . Oh , OK .
PhD B: and then pick some from that {disfmarker}
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: pick one .
Professor C: I m I mean {disfmarker} yeah , I mean , there 's Car - Carmen 's working on another , on the vector Taylor series .
PhD B: VA Yeah , VAD . w Yeah .
Professor C: So they were just kind of trying to cover a bunch of different things with this task and see , you know , what are {disfmarker} what are the issues for each of them .
PhD A: Ah , OK . That makes sense .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD A: Yeah . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Um .
PhD A: Cool , thanks .
PhD B: So {disfmarker} so one of {disfmarker} one of the things that I tried , like I said , was to remove those zeros in the fri filter by doing some smoothing of the filter .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Like , you estimate the edge of square and then you do a f smoothing across the frequency so that those zeros get , like , flattened out .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And that doesn't seems to be improving by trying it on the first time . So what I did was like I p did this and then you {disfmarker} I plugged in the {disfmarker} one more {disfmarker} the same thing but with the smoothed filter the second time .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And that seems to be working .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So that 's where I got like fifty - six point five percent improvement on SpeechDat - Car with that . And {disfmarker} So the other thing what I tried was I used still the ten frames of noise estimate but I used this channel zero VAD to drop the frames . So I 'm not {disfmarker} still not estimating . And that has taken the performance to like sixty - seven percent in SpeechDat - Car , which is {disfmarker} which {disfmarker} which like sort of shows that by using a proper VAD you can just take it to further , better levels . And {disfmarker} So .
PhD A: So that 's sort of like , you know , best - case performance ?
PhD B: Yeah , so far I 've seen sixty - seven {disfmarker} I mean , no , I haven't seen s like sixty - seven percent . And , uh , using the channel zero VAD to estimate the noise also seems to be improving but I don't have the results for all the cases with that . So I used channel zero VAD to estimate noise as a lesser 2 x frame , which is like , {vocalsound} everywhere I use the channel zero VAD . And that seems to be the best combination , uh , rather than using a few frames to estimate and then drop a channel .
Professor C: So I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm still a little confused . Is that channel zero information going to be accessible during this test .
PhD B: Nnn , no . This is just to test whether we can really improve by using a better VAD .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So ,
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: I mean {disfmarker} So this is like the noise compensation f is fixed
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: but you make a better decision on the endpoints . That 's , like {disfmarker} seems to be {disfmarker}
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: so we c so I mean , which {disfmarker} which means , like , by using this technique what we improve just the VAD
Professor C: Yes .
PhD B: we can just take the performance by another ten percent or better .
Professor C: OK .
PhD B: So , that {disfmarker} that was just the , uh , reason for doing that experiment . And , w um {disfmarker} Yeah , but this {disfmarker} all these things , I have to still try it on the TI - digits , which is like I 'm just running . And there seems to be not improving a {disfmarker} a lot on the TI - digits , so I 'm like investigating that , why it 's not . And , um , um {disfmarker} Well after that . So , uh {disfmarker} so the other {disfmarker} the other thing is {disfmarker} like I 've been {disfmarker} I 'm doing all this stuff on the power spectrum . So {disfmarker} Tried this stuff on the mel as well {disfmarker} mel and the magnitude , and mel magnitude , and all those things . But it seems to be the power spectrum seems to be getting the best result . So , one of {disfmarker} one of reasons I thought like doing the averaging , after the filtering using the mel filter bank , that seems to be maybe helping rather than trying it on the mel filter ba filtered outputs .
Professor C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So just th
Professor C: Ma Makes sense .
PhD B: Yeah , th that 's {disfmarker} that 's the only thing that I could think of why {disfmarker} why it 's giving improvement on the mel . And , yep . So that 's it .
Professor C: Uh , how about the subspace stuff ?
PhD B: Subspace , {comment} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm like {disfmarker} that 's still in {disfmarker} a little bit in the back burner because I 've been p putting a lot effort on this to make it work , on tuning things and other stuff .
Professor C: OK .
PhD B: So I was like going parallely but not much of improvement . I 'm just {disfmarker} have some skeletons ready , need some more time for it .
Professor C: OK .
PhD B: Mmm .
PhD A: Tha - that it ?
PhD B: Yep . Yep .
PhD A: Cool . Do you wanna go , Stephane ?
PhD D: Uh , yeah . So , {vocalsound} I 've been , uh , working still on the spectral subtraction . Um , So to r to remind you {vocalsound} {vocalsound} a little bit of {disfmarker} of what I did before , is just {vocalsound} to apply some spectral subtraction with an overestimation factor also to get , um , an estimate of the noise , uh , spectrum , and subtract this estimation of the noise spectrum from the , uh , signal spectrum , {comment} but subtracting more when the SNR is {disfmarker} is , uh , low , which is a technique that it 's often used .
PhD A: " Subtracting more " , meaning {disfmarker} ?
PhD D: So you overestimate the noise spectrum . You multiply the noise spectrum by a factor , uh , which depends on the SNR .
PhD A: Oh , OK . I see .
PhD D: So , above twenty DB , it 's one , so you just subtract the noise .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: And then it 's b Generally {disfmarker} Well , I use , actually , a linear , uh , function of the SNR ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: which is bounded to , like , two or three , {comment} when the SNR is below zero DB .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Um , doing just this , uh , either on the FFT bins or on the mel bands , um , t doesn't yield any improvement
Professor C: Oh ! Um , uh , what are you doing with negative , uh , powers ?
PhD D: o Yeah . So there is also a threshold , of course , because after subtraction you can have negative energies ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: and {disfmarker} So what I {disfmarker} I just do is to put , uh {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to add {disfmarker} to put the threshold first and then to add a small amount of noise , which right now is speech - shaped . Um {disfmarker}
PhD A: Speech - shaped ?
PhD D: Yeah , so it 's {disfmarker} a it has the overall {disfmarker} overall energy , uh {disfmarker} pow it has the overall power spectrum of speech . So with a bump around one kilohertz .
PhD A: So when y when you talk about there being something less than zero after subtracting the noise , is that at a particular frequency bin ?
PhD D: i Uh - huh . Yeah .
PhD A: OK .
PhD D: There can be frequency bins with negative values .
PhD A: And so when you say you 're adding something that has the overall shape of speech , is that in a {disfmarker} in a particular frequency bin ? Or you 're adding something across all the frequencies when you get these negatives ?
PhD D: For each frequencies I a I 'm adding some , uh , noise , but the a the amount of {disfmarker} the amount of noise I add is not the same for all the frequency bins .
PhD A: Ah ! OK . I gotcha . Right .
PhD D: Uh . Right now I don't think if it makes sense to add something that 's speech - shaped , because then you have silence portion that have some spectra similar to the sp the overall speech spectra .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: But {disfmarker} Yeah . So this is something I can still work on ,
PhD A: So what does that mean ?
PhD D: but {disfmarker} Hmm .
PhD A: I 'm trying to understand what it means when you do the spectral subtraction and you get a negative . It means that at that particular frequency range you subtracted more energy than there was actually {disfmarker}
PhD D: That means that {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . Yeah . So {disfmarker} so yeah , you have an {disfmarker} an estimation of the noise spectrum , but sometimes , of course , it 's {disfmarker} as the noise is not perfectly stationary , sometimes this estimation can be , uh , too small , so you don't subtract enough . But sometimes it can be too large also . If {disfmarker} if the noise , uh , energy in this particular frequency band drops for some reason .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Mmm .
PhD A: So in {disfmarker} in an ideal word i world {comment} if the noise were always the same , then , when you subtracted it the worst that i you would get would be a zero . I mean , the lowest you would get would be a zero , cuz i if there was no other energy there you 're just subtracting exactly the noise .
Professor C: Right .
PhD D: Mm - hmm ,
Professor C: Yep , there 's all {disfmarker} there 's all sorts of , uh , deviations from the ideal here .
PhD D: yeah .
Professor C: I mean , for instance , you 're {disfmarker} you 're talking about the signal and noise , um , at a particular point . And even if something is sort of stationary in ster terms of statistics , there 's no guarantee that any particular instantiation or piece of it is exactly a particular number or bounded by a particular range .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: So , you 're figuring out from some chunk of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of the signal what you think the noise is . Then you 're subtracting that from another chunk ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: and there 's absolutely no reason to think that you 'd know that it wouldn't , uh , be negative in some places .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Hmm .
Professor C: Uh , on the other hand that just means that in some sense you 've made a mistake because you certainly have stra subtracted a bigger number than is due to the noise .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Um {disfmarker} Also , we speak {disfmarker} the whole {disfmarker} where all this stuff comes from is from an assumption that signal and noise are uncorrelated . And that certainly makes sense in s in {disfmarker} in a statistical interpretation , that , you know , over , um , all possible realizations that they 're uncorrelated
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: or assuming , uh , ergodicity that i that i um , across time , uh , it 's uncorrelated . But if you just look at {disfmarker} a quarter second , uh , and you cross - multiply the two things , uh , you could very well , uh , end up with something that sums to something that 's not zero . So in fact , the two signals could have some relation to one another . And so there 's all sorts of deviations from ideal in this . And {disfmarker} and given all that , you could definitely end up with something that 's negative . But if down the road you 're making use of something as if it is a power spectrum , um , then it can be bad to have something negative . Now , the other thing I wonder about actually is , what if you left it negative ? What happens ?
PhD B: Is that the log ?
Professor C: I mean , because {disfmarker} Um , are you taking the log before you add them up to the mel ?
PhD B: After that . No , after .
Professor C: Right . So the thing is , I wonder how {disfmarker} if you put your thresholds after that , I wonder how often you would end up with , uh {disfmarker} with negative values .
PhD B: But you will {disfmarker} But you end up reducing some neighboring frequency bins {disfmarker} @ @ in the average , right ? When you add the negative to the positive value which is the true estimate .
Professor C: Yeah . But nonetheless , uh , you know , these are {disfmarker} it 's another f kind of smoothing , right ? that you 're doing .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: Right . So , you 've done your best shot at figuring out what the noise should be , and now i then you 've subtracted it off . And then after that , instead of {disfmarker} instead of , uh , uh , leaving it as is and adding things {disfmarker} adding up some neighbors , you artificially push it up .
PhD B: Hmm .
Professor C: Which is , you know , it 's {disfmarker} there 's no particular reason that that 's the right thing to do either , right ?
PhD B: Yeah , yeah .
Professor C: So , um , uh , i in fact , what you 'd be doing is saying , " well , we 're d we 're {disfmarker} we 're going to definitely diminish the effect of this frequency in this little frequency bin in the {disfmarker} in the overall mel summation " . It 's just a thought . I d I don't know if it would be {disfmarker}
PhD A: Sort of the opposite of that would be if {disfmarker} if you find out you 're going to get a negative number , you don't do the subtraction for that bin .
PhD B: Yeah . Uh - huh . That is true .
Professor C: Nnn , yeah ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: although {disfmarker}
PhD A: That would be almost the opposite , right ? Instead of leaving it negative , you don't do it . If your {disfmarker} if your subtraction 's going to result in a negative number , you {disfmarker} you don't do subtraction in that .
Professor C: Yeah , but that means that in a situation where you thought that {disfmarker} that the bin was almost entirely noise , you left it .
PhD A: Yeah . Yeah , I 'm just saying that 's like the opposite .
PhD B: We just {disfmarker}
Professor C: Uh .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor C: Well , yeah that 's {disfmarker} that 's the opposite ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: yeah .
PhD D: And , yeah , some people also {disfmarker} if it 's a negative value they , uh , re - compute it using inter interpolation from the edges and bins .
PhD B: For frames , frequency bins .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: Well , there are different things that you can do .
PhD A: Oh .
Professor C: People can also , uh , reflect it back up and essentially do a full wave rectification instead of a {disfmarker} instead of half wave .
PhD A: Oh .
Professor C: But it was just a thought that {disfmarker} that it might be something to try .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yep . Well , actually I tried , {vocalsound} something else based on this , um , is to {disfmarker} to put some smoothing , um , because it seems to {disfmarker} to help or it seems to help the Wiener filtering
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: and , mmm {disfmarker} So what I did is , uh , some kind of nonlinear smoothing . Actually I have a recursion that computes {disfmarker} Yeah , let me go back a little bit . Actually , when you do spectral subtraction you can , uh , find this {disfmarker} this equivalent in the s in the spectral domain . You can uh compute , y you can say that d your spectral subtraction is a filter , um , and the gain of this filter is the , um , {vocalsound} signal energy minus what you subtract , divided by the signal energy . And this is a gain that varies over time , and , you know , of course , uh , depending on the s on the noise spectrum and on the speech spectrum . And {disfmarker} what happen actually is that during low SNR values , the gain is close to zero but it varies a lot . Mmm , and this {disfmarker} this is the cause of musical noise and all these {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} {comment} the fact you {disfmarker} we go below zero one frame and then you can have an energy that 's above zero .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: And {disfmarker} Mmm . So the smoothing is {disfmarker} I did a smoothing actually on this gain , uh , trajectory . But it 's {disfmarker} the smoothing is nonlinear in the sense that I tried to not smooth if the gain is high , because in this case we know that , uh , the estimate of the gain is correct because we {disfmarker} we are not close to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to zero , um , and to do more smoothing if the gain is low . Mmm . Um . Yeah . So , well , basically that 's this idea , and it seems to give pretty good results , uh , although I 've just {disfmarker} just tested on Italian and Finnish . And on Italian it seems {disfmarker} my result seems to be a little bit better than the Wiener filtering ,
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Yeah , the one you showed yesterday .
PhD D: right ?
PhD B: Right ?
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: Uh , I don't know if you have these improvement the detailed improvements for Italian , Finnish , and Spanish there
PhD B: Fff . No , I don't have , for each ,
PhD D: or you have {disfmarker} just have your own .
PhD B: I {disfmarker} I just {disfmarker} just have the final number here .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: So these numbers he was giving before with the four point three , and the ten point one , and so forth , those were Italian , right ?
PhD B: Yeah , yeah , yeah . So {disfmarker} so , no ,
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD B: I actually didn't give you the number which is the final one ,
PhD D: uh , no , we 've {disfmarker}
PhD B: which is , after two stages of Wiener filtering . I mean , that was I just {disfmarker} well , like the overall improvement is like fifty - six point five . So ,
Professor C: Right .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: I mean , his number is still better than what I got in the two stages of Wiener filtering .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: Right .
PhD D: On Italian . But on Finnish it 's a little bit worse , apparently .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Um {disfmarker}
Professor C: But do you have numbers in terms of word error rates on {disfmarker} on Italian ? So just so you have some sense of reference ?
PhD D: Yeah . Uh , so , it 's , uh , three point , uh , eight .
Professor C: Uh - huh .
PhD D: Am I right ?
PhD B: Oh , OK . Yeah , right , OK .
PhD D: And then , uh , d uh , nine point , uh , one .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: And finally , uh , sixteen point five .
Professor C: And this is , um , spectral subtraction plus what ?
PhD D: Plus {disfmarker} plus nonlinear smoothing . Well , it 's {disfmarker} the system {disfmarker} it 's exactly the sys the same system as Sunil tried ,
Professor C: On - line normalization and LDA ?
PhD D: but {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah . But instead of double stage Wiener filtering , it 's {disfmarker} it 's this smoothed spectral subtraction . Um , yeah .
PhD A: What is it the , um , France Telecom system uses
Professor C: Right .
PhD A: for {disfmarker} Do they use spectral subtraction , or Wiener filtering , or {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: They use spectral subtraction , right .
PhD D: For what ?
PhD B: French Telecom .
PhD D: It {disfmarker} it 's Wiener filtering ,
PhD B: Oh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's Wiener filtering .
PhD D: am I right ?
PhD A: Oh .
PhD B: Sorry .
PhD D: Well , it 's some kind of Wiener filtering {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah , filtering . Yeah , it 's not exactly Wiener filtering but some variant of Wiener filtering .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: I see .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah , plus , uh , I guess they have some sort of cepstral normalization , as well .
PhD B: s They have like {disfmarker} yeah , th the {disfmarker} just noise compensation technique is a variant of Wiener filtering ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: plus they do some {disfmarker} some smoothing techniques on the final filter . The {disfmarker} th they actually do the filtering in the time domain .
PhD A: Mmm .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: Hmm .
PhD B: So they would take this HF squared back , taking inverse Fourier transform . And they convolve the time domain signal with that .
PhD A: Oh , I see .
PhD B: And they do some smoothing on that final filter , impulse response .
PhD A: Hmm .
PhD D: But they also have two {disfmarker} two different smoothing @ @ .
PhD B: I mean , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm @ @ .
PhD D: One in the time domain and one in the frequency domain by just taking the first , um , coefficients of the impulse response .
PhD B: But .
PhD D: So , basically it 's similar . I mean , what you did , it 's similar
PhD B: It 's similar in the smoothing and {disfmarker}
PhD D: because you have also two {disfmarker} two kind of smoothing .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD D: One in the time domain , and one in the frequency domain ,
PhD B: Yeah . The frequency domain .
PhD D: yeah .
PhD A: Does the smoothing in the time domain help {disfmarker}
PhD D: Um {disfmarker}
PhD A: Well , do you get this musical noise stuff with Wiener filtering or is that only with , uh , spectral subtraction ?
PhD B: No , you get it with Wiener filtering also .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: Does the smoothing in the time domain help with that ? Or some other smoothing ?
PhD B: Oh , no , you still end up with zeros in the s spectrum . Sometimes .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD A: Hmm .
Professor C: I mean , it 's not clear that these musical noises hurt us in recognition .
PhD A: Hmm .
Professor C: We don't know if they do .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: I mean , they {disfmarker} they sound bad .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Yeah , I know .
Professor C: But we 're not listening to it , usually .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Hmm .
PhD D: Uh , actually the {disfmarker} the smoothing that I did {disfmarker} do here reduced the musical noise . Well , it {disfmarker}
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Yeah , yeah ,
PhD D: Mmm .
PhD B: the {disfmarker}
PhD D: Well , I cannot {disfmarker} you cannot hear beca well , actually what I d did not say is that this is not in the FFT bins . This is in the mel frequency bands . Um {disfmarker} So , it could be seen as a f a {disfmarker} a smoothing in the frequency domain because I used , in ad mel bands in addition and then the other phase of smoothing in the time domain . Mmm . But , when you look at the spectrogram , if you don't have an any smoothing , you clearly see , like {disfmarker} in silence portions , and at the beginning and end of speech , you see spots of high energy randomly distributed over the {disfmarker} the spectrogram .
PhD A: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Um {disfmarker}
PhD A: That 's the musical noise ?
PhD D: Which is musical noise ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: yeah , if {disfmarker} if it {disfmarker} If you listen to it {disfmarker} uh , if you do this in the FFT bins , then you have spots of energy randomly distributing . And if you f if you re - synthesize these spot sounds as , like , sounds ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: uh {disfmarker}
Professor C: Well , none of these systems , by the way , have {disfmarker} I mean , y you both are {disfmarker} are working with , um , our system that does not have the neural net ,
PhD D: And {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yep .
Professor C: right ?
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: OK . So one would hope , presumably , that the neural net part of it would {disfmarker} would improve things further as {disfmarker} as they did before .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah . Um {disfmarker} Yeah , although if {disfmarker} if we , um , look at the result from the proposals , {comment} one of the reason , uh , the n system with the neural net was , um , more than {disfmarker} well , around five percent better , is that it was much better on highly mismatched condition . I 'm thinking , for instance , on the TI - digits trained on clean speech and tested on noisy speech .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Uh , for this case , the system with the neural net was much better .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: But not much on the {disfmarker} in the other cases .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: And if we have no , uh , spectral subtraction or Wiener filtering , um , i the system is {disfmarker} Uh , we thought the neural {disfmarker} neural network is much better than before , even in these cases of high mismatch . So , maybe the neural net will help less but , um {disfmarker}
Professor C: Maybe .
PhD A: Could you train a neural net to do spectral subtraction ?
Professor C: Yeah , it could do a nonlinear spectral subtraction
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: but I don't know if it {disfmarker} I mean , you have to figure out what your targets are .
PhD A: Yeah , I was thinking if you had a clean version of the signal and {disfmarker} and a noisy version , and your targets were the M F - uh , you know , whatever , frequency bins {disfmarker}
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Right .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Yeah , well , that 's not so much spectral subtraction then ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but it 's {disfmarker} but at any rate , yeah , people , uh {disfmarker}
PhD A: People do that ?
Professor C: y yeah , in fact , we had visitors here who did that I think when you were here ba way back when .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Hmm .
Professor C: Uh , people {disfmarker} d done lots of experimentation over the years with training neural nets . And it 's not a bad thing to do . It 's another approach .
PhD A: Hmm .
Professor C: M I mean , it 's {disfmarker} it , um {disfmarker}
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: The objection everyone always raises , which has some truth to it is that , um , it 's good for mapping from a particular noise to clean but then you get a different noise .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And the experiments we saw that visitors did here showed that it {disfmarker} there was at least some , um , {vocalsound} {comment} gentleness to the degradation when you switched to different noises . It did seem to help . So that {disfmarker} you 're right , that 's another {disfmarker} another way to go .
PhD A: How did it compare on {disfmarker} I mean , for {disfmarker} for good cases where it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} uh , stuff that it was trained on ? Did it do pretty well ?
Professor C: Oh , yeah , it did very well .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor C: Um ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: but to some extent that 's kind of what we 're doing . I mean , we 're not doing exactly that , we 're not trying to generate good examples but by trying to do the best classifier you possibly can , for these little phonetic categories ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm . You could say it 's sort of built in .
Professor C: It 's {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's kind of built into that .
PhD A: Hmm .
Professor C: And {disfmarker} and that 's why we have found that it {disfmarker} it does help .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Um {disfmarker} so , um , yeah , I mean , we 'll just have to try it . But I {disfmarker} I would {disfmarker} I would {disfmarker} I would imagine that it will help some . I mean , it {disfmarker} we 'll just have to see whether it helps more or less the same , but I would imagine it would help some .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: So in any event , all of this {disfmarker} I was just confirming that all of this was with a simpler system .
PhD D: Yeah ,
Professor C: OK ?
PhD D: yeah . Um , Yeah , so this is th the , um {disfmarker} Well , actually , this was kind of the first try with this spectral subtraction plus smoothing ,
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: and I was kind of excited by the result .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Um , then I started to optimize the different parameters . And , uh , the first thing I tried to optimize is the , um , time constant of the smoothing . And it seems that the one that I chose for the first experiment was the optimal one , so {vocalsound} uh ,
Professor C: It 's amazing how often that happens .
PhD D: Um , so this is the first thing . Um {disfmarker} Yeah , another thing that I {disfmarker} it 's important to mention is , um , that this has a this has some additional latency . Um . Because when I do the smoothing , uh , it 's a recursion that estimated the means , so {disfmarker} of the g of the gain curve . And this is a filter that has some latency . And I noticed that it 's better if we take into account this latency . So , instead o of using the current estimated mean to , uh , subtract the current frame , it 's better to use an estimate that 's some somewhere in the future . Um {disfmarker}
PhD A: And that 's what causes the latency ? OK .
PhD B: You mean , the m the mean is computed o based on some frames in the future also ?
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD B: Or {disfmarker} or no ?
PhD D: It 's the recursion , so it 's {disfmarker} it 's the center recursion , right ?
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Um {disfmarker} and the latency of this recursion is around fifty milliseconds .
Professor C: One five ?
PhD D:
Professor C: One five ? Five zero ?
PhD D: Five zero ,
Professor C: Five zero .
PhD D: yeah .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: Um ,
PhD B: I 'm sorry ,
PhD D: mmm .
PhD B: why {disfmarker} why is that delay coming ? Like , you estimate the mean ?
PhD D: Yeah , the mean estimation has some delay , right ?
PhD B: Oh , yeah .
PhD D: I mean , the {disfmarker} the filter that {disfmarker} that estimates the mean has a time constant .
PhD B: It isn't {disfmarker} OK , so it 's like it looks into the future also . OK .
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: What if you just look into the past ?
PhD D: It 's , uh , not as good . It 's not bad .
Professor C: How m by how much ?
PhD D: Um , it helps a lot over the ba the baseline but , mmm {disfmarker}
Professor C: By how much ?
PhD D: it {disfmarker} It 's around three percent , um , relative .
Professor C: Worse .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah . Um ,
Professor C: Hmm .
PhD D: mmm {disfmarker} So , uh {disfmarker}
Professor C: It 's depending on how all this stuff comes out we may or may not be able to add any latency .
PhD D: Yeah , but {disfmarker} Yeah . So , yeah , it depends . Uh , y actually , it 's {disfmarker} it 's l it 's three percent . Right . Mmm . Yeah , b but I don't think we have to worry too much on that right now while {disfmarker} you kno . Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Um , s Yeah , I mean , I think the only thing is that {disfmarker}
PhD D: So {disfmarker}
Professor C: I would worry about it a little .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Because if we completely ignore latency , and then we discover that we really have to do something about it , we 're going to be {disfmarker} find ourselves in a bind .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: So , um , you know , maybe you could make it twenty - five . You know what I mean ?
PhD D: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah , just , you know , just be {disfmarker} be a little conservative
PhD D: Oh yes .
Professor C: because we may end up with this crunch where all of a sudden we have to cut the latency in half or something .
PhD D: s Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor C: OK .
PhD D: Um . So , yeah , there are other things in the , um , algorithm that I didn't , uh , @ @ a lot yet ,
PhD A: Oh !
PhD D: which {disfmarker}
PhD A: Sorry . A quick question just about the latency thing . If {disfmarker} if there 's another part of the system that causes a latency of a hundred milliseconds , is this an additive thing ? Or c or is yours hidden in that ?
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Uh {disfmarker}
PhD D: No , it 's {disfmarker} it 's added .
PhD A: It 's additive . OK .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: We can {disfmarker} OK . We can do something in parallel also , in some like {disfmarker} some cases like , if you wanted to do voice activity detection .
PhD A: Uh - huh .
PhD B: And we can do that in parallel with some other filtering you can do .
PhD D: Mmm .
PhD B: So you can make a decision on that voice activity detection and then you decide whether you want to filter or not .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD B: But by then you already have the sufficient samples to do the filtering .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So {disfmarker} So , sometimes you can do it anyway .
PhD A: I mean , couldn't , uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Couldn't you just also {disfmarker} I mean , i if you know that the l the largest latency in the system is two hundred milliseconds , don't you {disfmarker} couldn't you just buffer up that number of frames and then everything uses that buffer ?
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD A: And that way it 's not additive ?
Professor C: Well , in fact , everything is sent over in buffers cuz of {disfmarker} isn't it the TCP buffer some {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: You mean , the {disfmarker} the data , the super frame or something ?
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Yeah , yeah .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah , but that has a variable latency because the last frame doesn't have any latency
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: and first frame has a twenty framed latency . So you can't r rely on that latency all the time .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD B: Because {disfmarker} I mean the transmission over {disfmarker} over the air interface is like a buffer .
PhD D: Yeah .
PhD B: Twenty frame {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD B: twenty four frames .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD B: So {disfmarker} But the only thing is that the first frame in that twenty - four frame buffer has a twenty - four frame latency . And the last frame doesn't have any latency .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Because it just goes as {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah , I wasn't thinking of that one in particular
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD A: but more of , you know , if {disfmarker} if there is some part of your system that has to buffer twenty frames , uh , can't the other parts of the system draw out of that buffer and therefore not add to the latency ?
Professor C: Yeah . Yeah . And {disfmarker} and that 's sort of one of the {disfmarker} all of that sort of stuff is things that they 're debating in their standards committee .
PhD A: Oh ! Hmm .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Yeah . So , um , there is uh , {comment} these parameters that I still have to {disfmarker} to look at . Like , I played a little bit with this overestimation factor , uh , but I still have to {disfmarker} to look more at this , um , at the level of noise I add after . Uh , I know that adding noise helped , um , the system just using spectral subtraction without smoothing , but I don't know right now if it 's still important or not , and if the level I choose before is still the right one . Same thing for the shape of the {disfmarker} the noise . Maybe it would be better to add just white noise instead of speech shaped noise .
Professor C: That 'd be more like the JRASTA thing in a sense . Yeah .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Um , yep . Uh , and another thing is to {disfmarker} Yeah , for this I just use as noise estimate the mean , uh , spectrum of the first twenty frames of each utterance . I don't remember for this experiment what did you use for these two stage {disfmarker}
PhD B: I used ten {disfmarker} just ten frames . Yeah , because {disfmarker}
PhD D: The ten frames ?
PhD B: I mean , the reason was like in TI - digits I don't have a lot . I had twenty frames most of the time .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Um . But , so what 's this result you told me about , the fact that if you use more than ten frames you can {disfmarker} improve by t
PhD B: Well , that 's {disfmarker} that 's using the channel zero . If I use a channel zero VAD to estimate the noise .
PhD D: Oh , OK .
PhD B: Which {disfmarker}
PhD D: But this is ten frames plus {disfmarker} plus
PhD B: Channel zero dropping .
PhD D: channel {disfmarker}
PhD B: Hmm .
PhD D: Uh , no , these results with two stage Wiener filtering is ten frames
PhD B: t Oh , this {disfmarker}
PhD D: but possibly more . I mean , if channel one VAD gives you {disfmarker}
PhD B: f Yeah . Mm - hmm . Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah . OK . Yeah , but in this experiment I did {disfmarker} I didn't use any VAD . I just used the twenty first frame to estimate the noise . And {disfmarker} So I expected it to be a little bit better , {vocalsound} if , uh , I use more {disfmarker} more frames . Um . OK , that 's it for spectral subtraction . The second thing I was working on is to , um , try to look at noise estimation , {comment} mmm , and using some technique that doesn't need voice activity detection . Um , and for this I u simply used some code that , uh , {vocalsound} I had from {disfmarker} from Belgium , which is technique that , um , takes a bunch of frame , um , and for each frequency bands of this frame , takes a look at the minima of the energy . And then average these minima and take this as an {disfmarker} an energy estimate of the noise for this particular frequency band . And there is something more to this actually . What is done is that , {vocalsound} uh , these minima are computed , um , based on , um , high resolution spectra . So , I compute an FFT based on the long , uh , signal frame which is sixty - four millisecond {disfmarker}
PhD A: So you have one minimum for each frequency ?
PhD D: What {disfmarker} what I {disfmarker} what I d uh , I do actually , is to take a bunch of {disfmarker} to take a tile on the spectrogram and this tile is five hundred milliseconds long and two hundred hertz wide .
PhD A: Mmm .
PhD D: And this tile {disfmarker} Uh , in this tile appears , like , the harmonics if you have a voiced sound , because it 's {disfmarker} it 's the FTT bins . And when you take the m the minima of {disfmarker} of these {disfmarker} this tile , when you don't have speech , these minima will give you some noise level estimate , If you have voiced speech , these minima will still give you some noise estimate because the minima are between the harmonics . And {disfmarker} If you have other {disfmarker} other kind of speech sounds then it 's not the case , but if the time frame is long enough , uh , like s five hundred milliseconds seems to be long enough , {comment} you still have portions which , uh , are very close {disfmarker} whi which minima are very close to the noise energy .
Professor C: I 'm confused . You said five hundred milliseconds
PhD D: Mmm ?
Professor C: but you said sixty - four milliseconds . Which is which ? What ?
PhD D: Sixty - four milliseconds is to compute the FFT , uh , bins .
Professor C: Yeah ,
PhD D: The {disfmarker} the FFT .
Professor C: yeah .
PhD D: Um , actually it 's better to use sixty - four milliseconds because , um , if you use thirty milliseconds , then , uh , because of the {disfmarker} this short windowing and at low pitch , uh , sounds , {vocalsound} the harmonics are not , wha uh , correctly separated .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: So if you take these minima , it {disfmarker} b {vocalsound} they will overestimate the noise a lot .
Professor C: So you take sixty - four millisecond F F Ts and then you average them {comment} over five hundred ? Or {disfmarker} ? Uh , what do you do over five hundred ?
PhD D: So I take {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} I take a bunch of these sixty - four millisecond frame to cover five hundred milliseconds ,
Professor C: Ah . OK .
PhD D: and then I look for the minima ,
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor C: I see .
PhD D: on the {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on the bunch of uh fifty frames , right ?
Professor C: I see .
PhD D: Mmm . So the interest of this is that , as y with this technique you can estimate u some reasonable noise spectra with only five hundred milliseconds of {disfmarker} of signal , so if the {disfmarker} the n the noise varies a lot , uh , you can track {disfmarker} better track the noise ,
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: which is not the case if you rely on the voice activity detector . So even if there are no no speech pauses , you can track the noise level . The only requirement is that you must have , in these five hundred milliseconds segment , {comment} you must have voiced sound at least . Cuz this {disfmarker} these will help you to {disfmarker} to track the {disfmarker} the noise level . Um . So what I did is just to simply replace the VAD - based , uh , noise estimate by this estimate , first on SpeechDat - Car {disfmarker} Well , only on SpeechDat - Car actually . And it 's , uh , slightly worse , like one percent relative compared to the VAD - based {pause} estimates . Um , I think the reason why it 's not better , is that the SpeechDat - Car noises are all stationary . Um . So , u y y there really is no need to have something that 's adaptive
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: and {disfmarker} Uh , well , they are mainly stationary . Um . But , I expect s maybe some improvement on TI - digits because , nnn , in this case the noises are all sometimes very variable . Uh , so I have to test it . Mmm .
Professor C: But are you comparing with something {disfmarker} e I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} p s a little confused again , i it {disfmarker} Uh , when you compare it with the V A D - based ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: VAD - Is this {disfmarker} is this the {disfmarker} ?
PhD D: It 's {disfmarker} It 's the France - Telecom - based spectra , s uh , Wiener filtering and VAD . So it 's their system but just I replace their noise estimate by this one .
Professor C: Oh , you 're not doing this with our system ?
PhD D: In i I 'm not {disfmarker} No , no . Yeah , it 's our system but with just the Wiener filtering from their system . Right ? Mmm .
Professor C: OK .
PhD D: Yeah . Actually , th the best system that we still have is , uh , our system but with their noise compensation scheme , right ?
Professor C: Right . But {disfmarker}
PhD D: So I 'm trying to improve on this , and {disfmarker} by {disfmarker} by replacing their noise estimate by , uh , something that might be better .
Professor C: OK . But the spectral subtraction scheme that you reported on also re requires a {disfmarker} a noise estimate .
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah .
Professor C: Couldn't you try this for that ?
PhD D: But I di
Professor C: Do you think it might help ?
PhD D: Not yet , because I did this in parallel ,
Professor C: I see ,
PhD D: and I was working on one and the other .
Professor C: I see . Yeah .
PhD D: Um ,
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD D: Yeah , for {disfmarker} for sure I will . I can try also , mmm , the spectral subtraction .
PhD B: So I 'm also using that n new noise estimate technique on this Wiener filtering what I 'm trying .
Professor C: OK .
PhD B: So I {disfmarker} I have , like , some experiments running , I don't have the results .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD B: So .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD B: I don't estimate the f noise on the ten frames but use his estimate .
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Um . Yeah . I , um , also implemented a sp um {disfmarker} spectral whitening idea which is in the , um , Ericsson proposal . Uh , the idea is just to {vocalsound} um , flatten the log , uh , spectrum , um , and to flatten it more if the {disfmarker} the probability of silence is higher . So in this way , you can also reduce {disfmarker} somewhat reduce the musical noise and you reduce the variability if you have different noise shapes , because the {disfmarker} the spectrum becomes more flat in the silence portions . Um . Yeah . With this , no improvement , uh , but there are a lot of parameters that we can play with and , um {disfmarker} Actually , this {disfmarker} this could be seen as a soft version of the frame dropping because , um , you could just put the threshold and say that " below the threshold , I will flatten {disfmarker} comp completely flatten the {disfmarker} the spectrum " . And above this threshold , uh , keep the same spectrum . So it would be like frame dropping , because during the silence portions which are below the threshold of voice activity probability , {comment} uh , w you would have some kind of dummy frame which is a perfectly flat spectrum . And this , uh , whitening is something that 's more soft because , um , you whiten {disfmarker} you just , uh , have a function {disfmarker} the whitening is a function of the speech probability , so it 's not a hard decision .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Um , so I think maybe it can be used together with frame dropping and when we are not sure about if it 's speech or silence , well , maybe it has something do with this .
Professor C: It 's interesting . I mean , um , you know , in {disfmarker} in JRASTA we were essentially adding in , uh , white {disfmarker} uh , white noise dependent on our estimate of the noise .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: On the overall estimate of the noise . Uh , I think it never occurred to us to use a probability in there .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: You could imagine one that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that made use of where {disfmarker} where the amount that you added in was , uh , a function of the probability of it being s speech or noise .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah , w Yeah , right now it 's a constant that just depending on the {disfmarker} the noise spectrum .
PhD B: There 's {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Cuz that {disfmarker} that brings in sort of powers of classifiers that we don't really have in , uh , this other estimate . So it could be {disfmarker} it could be interesting .
PhD D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor C: What {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what point does the , uh , system stop recording ? How much {disfmarker}
PhD A: It 'll keep going till {disfmarker} I guess when they run out of disk space ,
Professor C: It went a little long ? I mean , disk {disfmarker}
PhD A: but {disfmarker} I think we 're OK .
PhD D: So .
Professor C: OK .
PhD D: Yeah . Uh {disfmarker} Yeah , so there are {disfmarker} with this technique there are some {disfmarker} I just did something exactly the same as {disfmarker} as the Ericsson proposal but , um , {vocalsound} the probability of speech is not computed the same way . And I think , i for {disfmarker} yeah , for a lot of things , actually a g a good speech probability is important . Like for frame dropping you improve , like {disfmarker} you can improve from ten percent as Sunil showed , if you use the channel zero speech probabilities .
Professor C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD D: For this it might help , um {disfmarker}
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: S so , yeah . Uh , so yeah , the next thing I started to do is to , {vocalsound} uh , try to develop a better voice activity detector . And , um {disfmarker} I d um {disfmarker} yeah , for this I think we can maybe try to train the neural network for voice activity detection on all the data that we have , including all the SpeechDat - Car data . Um {disfmarker} And so I 'm starting to obtain alignments on these databases . Um , and the way I mi I do that is that I just use the HTK system but I train it only on the close - talking microphone . And then I aligned {disfmarker} I obtained the Viterbi alignment of the training utterances . Um {disfmarker} It seems to be , uh i Actually what I observed is that for Italian it doesn't seem {disfmarker} Th - there seems to be a problem .
PhD B: No . So , it doesn't seems to help by their use of channel zero or channel one .
PhD D: Well . Because {disfmarker} What ?
PhD B: Uh , you mean their d the frame dropping , right ? Yeah , it doesn't {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah . Yeah . So , u but actually the VAD was trained on Italian also ,
PhD B: Italian .
PhD D: so {disfmarker} Um , the c the current VAD that we have was trained on , uh , t SPINE , right ?
PhD B: TI - digits .
PhD D: Italian , and TI - digits with noise and {disfmarker}
PhD B:
PhD D: Uh , yeah . And it seems to work on Italian but not on the Finnish and Spanish data . So , maybe one reason is that s s Finnish and Spanish noise are different . And actually we observed {disfmarker} we listened to some of the utterances and sometimes for Finnish there is music in the recordings and strange things , right ?
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD D: Um {disfmarker} Yeah , so the idea was to train all the databases and obtain an alignment to train on these databases , and , um , also to , um , try different kind of features , {vocalsound} uh , as input to the VAD network . And we came up with a bunch of features that we want to try like , um , the spectral slope , the , um , the degree o degree of voicing with the features that , uh , we started to develop with Carmen , um , e with , uh , the correlation between bands and different kind of features ,
PhD B: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
PhD D: and {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD B: The energy also .
PhD D: The energy .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah , right .
PhD D: Yeah . Of course . Yeah .
Professor C: OK . Well , Hans - Guenter will be here next week so I think he 'll be interested in all {disfmarker} all of these things . And , so .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Mmm .
PhD A: OK , shall we , uh , do digits ?
Professor C: Yeah .
PhD A: Want to go ahead , Morgan ?
Professor C: Sure .
PhD A: OK . | |
doc_190 | Project Manager: Um we are {disfmarker} So the meeting will have about the same format as the last time . So {gap} switching over I've just left uh my first two screens {gap} .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} mailed you the minutes of the last meeting uh just to save time .
User Interface: Okay . Cool .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um and is there any questions you have that arised from last meeting that are particularly bothering you ? N
User Interface: Mm um . No , I don't think so .
Project Manager: No ? Okay , cool .
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: Then we shall start with a presentation from Raj .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} Hi , me Raj , again . Uh in this meeting I I'm going to discuss about the trend watching , uh how these trends is going to affect our market potential and how important is this . So we have to look on this . First of all methodology . The met methodology to find out the trend was incl uh was done in a way {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We have done a rec not only a recent remote control market survey , but we also considered the latest fre fashion trends of the market , because we think that this is also a factor which will affect our sales and profit . So what are our findings ? In our {vocalsound} uh in our findings we have seen that {disfmarker} when we did our remote control market survey we found that uh people l uh people do have preference for tho fancy mobi uh f remote controls which look and feel very good , rather than having a functional look and feel uh good . So this sh this clearly indicates their preference for the design their outlook of the remote controls . So we should take into uh we should consider this factor as the most important factor , because this factor is twice as important , the second factor which is further ti twice the as important as the sec as uh the third factor . So this factor becomes the most important factor in our surv uh uh in our mark uh means in take {disfmarker} in designing our rem uh remote controls .
User Interface: The last one is the most important one , is it ?
Marketing: No the first one is the
User Interface: Oh , sorry .
Marketing: uh the outlook of the mobile , the it should have a fancy outlook ,
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: the fancy design uh rather than just having a functional look and feel good , it should have a fancy look and foo feel good .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: The second most important aspect is that remote control should be a technologically uh innovative . We must have some technological advancement in the remote control tha rather than just putting it as it is as the other remo uh remote controls are . So it uh should be technologically innovative like glow-in-the-dark or speech recognition , something like that .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So that indicates our technological advancement . And the third most important aspect in the ta to take into consideration is that it should be easy to use ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: like it shouldn't be too much co complicated ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: there shouldn't be too many buttons on this mobi uh remote control , it shouldn't be too complicated uh like this way . And it should be uh {disfmarker} and customers should be provided with manuals that is easy to understand in their local language , something . So that they could know how to use these remote controls . When we did uh f fashions uh , recent fashion uh {disfmarker} our recent fashion update shows that {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Sorry .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ah yeah ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: I was just reading fruit and vegetables .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Hard to know how we are going to incorporate that . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Y yeah uh yeah , we have to , because uh d you can see how people have related their clothes , shoes , {gap} and everything with fruits and vegetables ,
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: because the g world is now changing it's trend towards organic , becoming more and more organic ,
User Interface: Okay . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: We should make a big sponge lemon ,
Marketing: becoming {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and then it'd be it would be yellow .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It's {disfmarker}
Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Th that's very good .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . So something like that we we should do .
User Interface: Glow-in-the-dark . Okay .
Marketing: And people uh the f feel of the material is expected to be spongy rather than just having a plastic look , hard look .
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well , that's good .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: That's what we kind of predicted anyway .
Marketing: So so that they could play with it while handi uh while handling it . So that should also be taken into consideration .
User Interface: Okay . Okay .
Marketing: So these are my views .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay , the spongy , not real spongy , you can {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: No it ca {vocalsound} y a {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Do you think like rubber would be good or does it really want to be like gel kind of stuff ?
Marketing: The rubber which is good for health and which is quite disposable that we can take into co
User Interface: Okay . Quite disposable .
Marketing: Yeah . 'Cause we It shouldn't be have any harm to the environment also ,
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: because our company is very well {gap} for taking all these concerns into consideration ,
Project Manager: Alright , okay .
User Interface: Oh okay .
Marketing: so we don't want to have any harm to the society ,
User Interface: Uh-huh . Okay .
Marketing: so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Fashion .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm 'kay .
User Interface: Cool .
Marketing: So that's all . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Fruit and veg , well there you go .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Just what I think of when I think of a remote control . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: A remote control ? Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap}
User Interface: And were there any factors that weren't important in the survey , that they said we don't want ?
Marketing: S uh we didn't find out any such point .
User Interface: Or was it just {disfmarker} Okay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh yes , there could be , but we couldn't find out any , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-mm-mm-mm .
User Interface: Cool .
Project Manager: Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm .
User Interface: F_ , what is it ? Um .
Project Manager: Function F_ eight .
User Interface: {gap} yeah .
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Yeah . {gap}
Project Manager: {gap}
Marketing: Oh no , {vocalsound} {gap} .
User Interface: No signal . Is that {gap} ?
Industrial Designer: No , it's got it's got it .
Marketing: Yeah , uh yeah , uh yeah .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: {gap} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Excuse me .
User Interface: Okay , and then F_ five , right ?
Project Manager: Uh , yeah {gap} .
User Interface: Okay . Um okay , so the interface concept um . Yeah . The interface specification , what people {disfmarker} um how they interact with it basically , I think . Um so the method , we looked at existing designs , what are the {disfmarker} what's good about them , what's bad about them , um I looked at their flaws , so we're going to look at their flaws , everything . Um and what {vocalsound} the survey told us and what we think would be good , so a bit of imagination .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh the findings , I've got some pictures to show you as well .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} either . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Okay , so most remote controls use graphical interface , where you um have got s buttons and you point it rather than having the output as a a stream of text or something .
Project Manager: Uh okay .
User Interface: Um and we also found that there's inconsistent layout , which makes it confusing . So I think for our remote control {disfmarker} There is some inconsistency already in {disfmarker} ec existing in {disfmarker} between remote controls , but I think standard kind of um shape and uh play and those kind of but buttons like the the top right for on and off or something ,
Project Manager: Right , okay . Yeah .
User Interface: I think , people find that important,'cause then it's easy to use .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And we've got some pictures of some uh new remote controls to show you .
Project Manager: Excellent .
User Interface: Do I press Escape F_ five ? Or just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh no just escape should uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Escape , okay . Um , oh I still haven't got my glasses on . Yeah , okay . So these are the {disfmarker} some of the pictures of existing ones .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Wow .
User Interface: I'll just walk you through them . This one is a voice recognition .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: And that's the kind of idea we're going for .
Project Manager: Looks pretty complicated .
User Interface: There's um an L_C_D_ thing , which we thought could {disfmarker} I thought could get a bit confusing and a bit expensive as well for us .
Project Manager: Right , okay .
User Interface: This one is {disfmarker} got a kind of scroll like a mouse ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm , like the middle button .
User Interface: which {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Um and {disfmarker} But I'm not exactly sure how you'd use that ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Ah it's kinda like scrolling {disfmarker}
User Interface: like would the computer come {disfmarker}
Project Manager: uh right , well , if I s if I'm thinking of the right one , I've got the same thing in front of my monitor , you scroll it and the when you reach the sort of um {vocalsound} menu item that you require , you press the middle of the scroll .
User Interface: Uh-huh , that's like the L_C_D_ one ,
Project Manager: Right , okay .
User Interface: is it ? But the one below that has got like {vocalsound} a little scroll function on the side . But I presume that the functions must come up on the T_V_ screen .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , presumably .
User Interface: I think that's what that is . So these are just a few ideas . Again that's just quite boring shape , grey , looks quite space-agey , but too many buttons , I think on that one .
Industrial Designer: Uh it looks threatening .
Project Manager: Yeah , looks like uh looks like something out of a jet . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , it does look kind of dangerous .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It looks like yeah {gap} .
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: Um this one I thought was really cool . It's w it's got the programmability function that we talked about .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You can put it in there , it's for your kids , and it's quite an organic shape and the little circle around there is pretty cool .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: And that's really easy to use , bright , so I like this one lot for our design . I think something like that would be good .
Industrial Designer: Wow .
Project Manager: Yeah , I m I mean the one thing I think about about these ones is um these kl uh secured areas um {vocalsound} , I've seen a lot of them with the the cover missing .
User Interface: Of course yellow . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So like have it hinge rather than sort of clip on or whatever .
User Interface: Right , yeah . Yeah , that's true . Yeah . Um so maybe that could be built into one of the things and it comes up on the T_V_ or something . And this one , the over-sized one , I don't know about you , but I think it's a bit too gimmicky .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I don't think that will sell very well .
Project Manager: I mean is that not sort of to assist the blind or something , is it ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I guess so . I don't know .
Industrial Designer: Then d blind don't watch T_V_ . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Strange . {vocalsound}
User Interface: I think that's a bit {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah exactly .
Project Manager: No they do , they do .
Industrial Designer: They do ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: They listen to it . Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . And um this one {vocalsound} is just pointing out . I like {vocalsound} some of these things um the the raised symbols and everything , but {gap} pointing out um that this one the volume it is kind of pressing down , but it would actually go up , because of the shape .
Project Manager: Right , okay .
User Interface: So that could {disfmarker} that's a bit confusing . Um but the buttons on this I think are {disfmarker} it's just showing you how you can have different different um buttons . They don't have to be all the same . So that's quite cool . Um .
Project Manager: 'Kay but people tend to recognise certain shapes to do certain things anyway , don't they ?
User Interface: Yeah , exactly . Um F_ five . Yes . So there are some of the findings . So we need to combine those ones um
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and I've just got {vocalsound} an e-mail from our technical department saying that they have broken through with some new speech recognition software that you can program in .
Project Manager: Brilliant . That's handy . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um yeah it is , just in time , very handy . Um so {vocalsound} I think maybe incorporating that in our design would be good .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: It's {disfmarker} you program it like you say , record , um and then , play , and then , record , play machine , and stuff like that , so that's {disfmarker} And it's much {disfmarker} Yeah . So that's quite cool . Uh personal preferences just some imagination , the raised symbols I thought were good , the L_C_D_ , it does look smart , but I think maybe for our budget , do you think that would be a bit too expensive to have the {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: The L_C_D_
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and the other stuff uh , I think .
User Interface: And the speech recognition , 'cause I think we're definitely going for the speech recognition ,
Marketing: But in our market survey we have seen that people are willing to pay more ,
User Interface: are we ?
Marketing: but they want the quality , they want f fancy look , they want some new design , something new .
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Uh yeah .
User Interface: Uh-huh . But our budget , we've {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's still it's still got to get within our twelve fifty , you know .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: So even if we increase our cost little bit , within uh some limits , and we give something new technological advancement as well as new design with fancy outlook , I think we will meet the requirements and we will be able to have a good sales in the market .
User Interface: Uh-huh . Okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: I'm not sure if the {disfmarker} if {vocalsound} for twenty five Euros uh per uh twelve Euros fifty m manufacturing cost , {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Ben bana
Project Manager: Yeah . I can't see tha Although , th I mean to be to be sure they have got {disfmarker} I mean they are going crazy with the L_C_D_ technology now ,
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: The L_C_D_ .
Project Manager: so that you've got your L_C_D_ T_V_s and everything so maybe the small {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But I mean like I I {disfmarker} the black and white , I guess , it just doesn't look funky enough .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um but , I mean , like even mobile phones or whatever have {disfmarker} now have colour L_C_D_ screens ,
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: w I ju I mean
User Interface: Yeah . S
Project Manager: I wouldn't know about the costs of them .
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: But uh price price not withstanding um , is it too complicated , is it gonna be too much just overload ?
Marketing: And the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Twelve fifty .
Marketing: Uh i it will be easy because there will be , on L_C_D_ s screen , there will be different frent icons , they can just click ok okay , whatever they wa
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Possibly .
User Interface: Yeah , that's the thing , because {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But but the thing is when you use a remote control , you never look at it , right ? You're looking at the T_V_
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and and it's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: That's true , yeah .
Industrial Designer: It just seems kind of like a a needless th
User Interface: And one of the survey findings was that they want it easy to use , so I think I'm not sure about the L_C_D_ .
Project Manager: Right .
User Interface: It's a it's great , it's a good idea , but for our budget and for the thing we're trying to go for eas easy to use , it's not the thing we should go for , I think . Child-friendly , I thought this was good , as you pointed out the um {vocalsound} the bit , it often goes missing especially with children , but it's a good shape and the organic is kind of {disfmarker} we could make a vegetabley kind of round shape , I think .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So which vegetable ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well I mean we could make a {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , I know , carrot {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well , si since we're going for the uh the k the sort of company colours , I think your lemon wasn't that far s {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: The the lemon . Well what are the options ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: And if it doesn't work you know , we've just made a lemon . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: But we don't want it to be {disfmarker} Yeah . Um the child-friendly , yeah . Easy to use , it seems quite easy to use . I like the d the different shapes of the buttons and stuff .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . I like I like the colourful buttons as well .
User Interface: I think that's a good idea to go for . Yeah . And the mouse one , I thought it was a good idea , because people use mo mice mouses now with the scrolling thing . Um .
Project Manager: Yeah . I mean we are marketing to sort of twenty five to thirty five ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: so most people will have come in contact with that kind of use .
User Interface: S yeah . So they'd be able to use that um , as I said I think i I'd presume it would come up on the screen .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Um so there you go .
Project Manager: And that means tha that means you get to bump that bit to the T_V_ maker , so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Oh .
User Interface: So that's um the user interface
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: design .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: So okay , I'll take this out now then .
Industrial Designer: Um so
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: There you go .
Industrial Designer: I guess there are a lot of options that we're gonna have to choose from among ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , looks like it .
Industrial Designer: and I'll I'll give you the uh , {vocalsound} I guess , technical considerations for those .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: And I'm gonna use the whiteboard , just 'cause we haven't used it {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: Yeah , I was just thinking the self same thing . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right . So , the way I'm gonna do this {vocalsound} is uh we're gonna take a look at some old remote controls , see how they work , uh reuse the the vital kind of um essential pieces of it ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and then we'll throw in our new innovations um {vocalsound} and keep it all within budget .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Magic man .
Industrial Designer: So uh yeah , looking inside a a very simple remote control . Um this is what they sent me . 'Kay . Here's uh the competition , I suppose .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um you open it up , there's a circuit board inside ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: um {vocalsound} and there's a a chip , a processor , the T_A_ one one eight three five , which um receives input from the buttons , and ch
Project Manager: So this is a standard off the shelf kind of a chip , is it ?
Industrial Designer: Right , it's very {disfmarker} they're very cheap remote . This remote costs nothing , you know . Um so that takes a signals from the buttons and translates it into a sequence of pulses that it then sends to the to the amplifier , which is made of some transistors and amplifiers , op-amps , and then that gets sent to the uh to the L_E_D_ light , which I can kinda see is that little red light bulb at the end ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and that sends out the infrared uh light signal to the television .
Project Manager: Right .
Industrial Designer: Oh here it is . {vocalsound} Um so this is kind of the the bear essentials that we need to have in our remote control , because it it defines the uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . So can we make them to pretty much any size we like or is there a minimum or ?
Industrial Designer: R Um no , I mean this is a very old one , so now with the new technology this is a a minimally small and cheap thing to make .
Project Manager: They gotta be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Almost a key-ring . {gap}
Industrial Designer: Right . So this is what we need to have for certain .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Um . So you know , as we said , we got the outer casing , which we have to decide , you know , what's it gonna be , um the board we have to use basically uh the same set-up , processor , um we'll probably use the more advanced processor than they had , amplifier and transmitter are all standard . Um so for the casing , uh this an e-mail I got from our manufacturing team uh , you know , we have a bunch of options from wood , titanium , rubber , plastic , whatnot , um latex , double-curved , curved . So lots of choices ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: what do we think ? Uh or sponge , I guess , isn't on there , right .
Project Manager: Well .
User Interface: Mm . I'm not sure about the sponge .
Industrial Designer: Organic sponge . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well , I mean like la latex has a kinda spongy feeling to it , doesn't it .
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah , it's very elasticy for sure .
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Yeah . And that would k also give it kinda durability
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: and
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um .
Project Manager: and ther that's also f sorta relatively cheap to cast .
Industrial Designer: Yeah so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} so maybe s uh a sort of uh plastic {disfmarker} initial plastic with a a latex kinda sheath ?
Industrial Designer: Okay so , here are a a plastic , uh latex {disfmarker}
User Interface: I like the rubber , the stress balls , I think ,
Project Manager: Oh right , okay .
User Interface: you know , that could be a bit of a gimmick like it's good to hold and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh right .
Project Manager: I don't know what that stuff is . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So something with give to it .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay . And
User Interface: And that might be quite durable and easy to chuck around .
Industrial Designer: and the colour is yellow , right ?
User Interface: Yeah ,
Project Manager: Or at least incorporating , yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: y {vocalsound} yellow incorporated , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yellow {vocalsound} , okay . Um .
Project Manager: I mean I forgot i we're sort of uh {disfmarker} I don't know what other standard silver kind of {disfmarker}
User Interface: I think {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Other parts or uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm . Yeah , the buttons w like , 'cause there's gonna be the the cover the the rubber or the plastic casing and then the buttons in probably two different colours
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm' kay .
User Interface: or i if we're having buttons actually ,
Industrial Designer: So yellow for the body ,
User Interface: I don
Project Manager: Um .
Industrial Designer: and then what colour for the buttons ?
Project Manager: Um I quite like the multi-coloured buttons myself .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So multi-coloured buttons .
User Interface: You do have ones like um play {vocalsound} could be green or on and off is red , and stuff like that , yeah .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah or yeah a limit uh maybe even just a limited multi-colour so it it doesn't look too childish , perhaps .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Makes it easy to use . Yeah , that's true , because that blue one did look quite hardish .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound} Although I mean this uh uh also comes to shape as well . I mean if we are gonna make it a novel {disfmarker} I mean double-curved sounds good to me if we're talking about sorta ergonomic and easy use ,
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Yeah .
Project Manager: a bit comfier , you know .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm 'kay so the shape we wanna go {disfmarker} Um how exactly ? Maybe double {disfmarker}
User Interface: Like uh {vocalsound} an hour glass kind of figure , is that what you're thinking of ,
Project Manager: Yeah it's uh , yeah , that that'd be {disfmarker} that's sort of comfortable to hold , easy to hold so you don't drop it .
User Interface: or just like a {disfmarker} It's not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: What about a banana ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} We could make novelty remote controls .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ? Okay , like we could have a big banana shaped remote control ,
Project Manager: Well , yeah , I mean like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: 'cause it's yellow fruit ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: right ?
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah . Mm and a lemon might be a little hard to grip . Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . But then how would you point it ?
Marketing: Ah
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: yeah . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: How would you point it ?
Industrial Designer: Oh i it doesn't matter which end you point , I guess .
User Interface: What {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We could have a little L_E_D_s on each end .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , I appreciate this idea ,
Project Manager: They only cost pennies .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: because then this {disfmarker} {vocalsound} this will help us in our advertisement also
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and we can relate with fruits and vegetables , the people's choices . That what our data shows that , so this w this w
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Huh ?
User Interface: {gap} y I'm I'm not sure about the banana idea .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um .
Industrial Designer: So a spongy banana re {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I mean that that th {vocalsound}
User Interface: Rubber banana .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: does
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: it does seem a bit uh again childish maybe . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay , okay .
User Interface: I think maybe just draw on the kind of fruit and vegetable shape . And what else did you say about fashions ? What was trendy ?
Marketing: Uh the fashion trend shows that fruits and vegetables ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} S
Industrial Designer: See {disfmarker}
Marketing: like people uh now {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And sponginess .
Industrial Designer: So maybe an an unidentifiable fruit or fiable fruit or vegetable
User Interface: And spongy , yeah .
Marketing: Spongy .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: like so it would have a stem perhaps
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and a
User Interface: Maybe , yeah .
Industrial Designer: maybe a {disfmarker} it'd be s axially symmetric .
Project Manager: Huh .
User Interface: Like what's what's that {vocalsound} , I don't even know the name of it , some kind of , you know where it's like {disfmarker} looks like a little snowman kind of thing . I don't know the name of that .
Industrial Designer: So it'd look like this kinda .
User Interface: Yeah , that's what I was thinking .
Industrial Designer: Like a gourd almost , or a squash of some sort ?
Project Manager: Uh .
User Interface: Yeah , maybe that's what they are .
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: 'Cause that you can hold it in like the bottom bit
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
User Interface: and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and it has a a clear top and bottom so y so you could say , you know , it transmits from this end .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , why the hell not . {vocalsound} Let's {vocalsound} that'll make us fifty million Euros .
User Interface: I don't know . What do you guy {disfmarker} What do you think ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um . Well , I guess it's kind of dra uh you don't necessarily have to have it sort of clearly identified as a fruit just to have that kind of fruitish shape ,
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: yeah ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , then only we can relate it with something .
Project Manager: Yeah , we can relate it by advertising or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Exactly .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so double-curved , single-curved , what do we feel ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Or we can do something , we can design two three shapes and we can have a public survey , let the public choose what they want .
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: There's a good man . There's a good idea .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay um , I guess , since you're the marketing guy .
Marketing: Yeah , sure . I will be happy to do that .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We'll uh {disfmarker} Okay , we could do that . Um .
User Interface: Okay . And buttons would , did we say ? Uh different shapes of buttons ?
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Um I l I su I mean for the specific functions , you know , up and down , uh play , stop .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so
Project Manager: They've got , I mean , they've got standard sort of intuitive um
Industrial Designer: so buttons .
Project Manager: things that are always used .
Industrial Designer: Okay , just like that .
User Interface: {gap} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's cool .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I like it .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Um . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: With the scroll-wheel or no ?
User Interface: Yeah , what about the scroll wheel and speech recognition ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh speech recognition , I think , so we need a microphone presumably .
Industrial Designer: Okay uh I could put the microphone here . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Okay there's the microphone .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Where should I put the microphone ?
Project Manager: I mean ho h h wel are we sure that scroll wheel does give ease of use ?
User Interface: Yeah , I'm not sure . Um I mean those ideas I saw were just for inspiration , I think .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Glad , we're not doing this for real .
User Interface: Um yeah , I can {disfmarker} no I'm not sure .
Industrial Designer: Okay , well we can do some user test with scroll-wheels , right ?
User Interface: I couldn Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: And uh I think if this this new software for the sound recognition is {gap} the microphone {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So should the microphone be just anywhere on it or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I would put it sort of sub-centrally , so it's {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay there's the mic .
Project Manager: So it can be sort of held and w {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: That's cool .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {disfmarker} We really need really gonna need to hold it , if it's gonna be voice recognition .
Industrial Designer: Um n well we can {disfmarker} Whoops . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oops . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um .
Project Manager: Um .
User Interface: So let's not use the whiteboard any more . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Upsidaisy . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oops , sorry . Okay .
User Interface: And uh so what else was there ? Um the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: What about the glow-in-the-dark thing , the strip around it ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I s I still like it .
User Interface: Are we just gonna leave that ?
Project Manager: Um but that's me . {vocalsound}
User Interface: You still like it . 'Cause we've got the uh technological innovation with the speech recognition system .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: Yes , or maybe it's just going a bit uh too far . I mean we are pushing it probably with funny fruit shapes .
User Interface: 'Cause um it could {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: Um don't wanna sort of overkill .
User Interface: Especially with yellow {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Mm . I dunno .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: 'Cause I mean like uh if we {disfmarker} I mean how good is the speech recognition thing ? Do we want to go for buttons at all , do we want to just have a device that maybe sits and pretends it's a fruit ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Then you put it in the fruit bowl ?
Industrial Designer: {gap} {gap} {vocalsound} They can work from a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , you know , and then you just tal
Industrial Designer: You don't have to hold it .
Project Manager: I mean like everybody's got fruit bowl in front of the telly .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I it could even encourage healthier habits for television watchers ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: you know they have uh fruits all round them .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . Make them make them think of fruit , yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Now just make sure they don't eat the remote .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: I mean uh {vocalsound} some uh I
User Interface: Yeah , do we need buttons ?
Project Manager: l like think of a fruit that could sit sort of independently on its own like uh , I dunno , an apple .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: Then it's just apple so sort of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh , yellow apples though {disfmarker} Hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: I quite like the shape . I quite like the design of that , uh 'cause that could sit on its own and it's quite {disfmarker} got a quite steady base .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay , yeah , that's good .
Industrial Designer: Okay . But yeah {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Groovy .
User Interface: Um
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and as we say we n we don't wanna be too ridiculous with the fruit things you know .
Project Manager: Yeah , {gap} . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But yeah , about the speech thing , it doesn't have to be hand held or close .
User Interface: {gap}
Industrial Designer: It can sit at a distance and pick it up still .
Project Manager: Yeah . So {vocalsound} I mean like you could actually {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Or we can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , gives you the options .
Marketing: we can do one thing , we can just have a remote control and casings of different different shapes , different fruit shapes in such a way that a any casing can be could be fit into this mobile general piece .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So whatever people want , like if somebody want it in banana shape , we will put that casing onto that mobile phone , okay ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So a selection of casings .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: it will look l {vocalsound} Uh yeah . In that w
Project Manager: It kind of fi it fits with f fits with marketing um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , 'cause you said about disposable ,
Marketing: S s sorry ?
User Interface: didn't you ? You said about disposable earli people want disposable things
Marketing: Uh like if this is a like if this is a mobile phone uh we will design casing in such a way like half of , we need not to have a full cover , we will just have a half of cover ,
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: so we could do that , like have a choice . Yeah .
Marketing: okay ? If somebody wants it i in banana shape , we will fit banana shape casing onto that , so it will give a banana shape look .
Project Manager: Like like mobiles , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: If somebody wanted in apple shape we will design that , we will put {disfmarker} we will put apple shape casing on that . It will give apple shape look . So in that way you can have any , that means whatever you want ,
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: without {disfmarker} uh yeah .
User Interface: We still need the buttons in the same places thought ,
Marketing: Yeah , button will be on the upper side , buttons will be the on the upper side .
User Interface: don't we ?
Project Manager: You can standardise those , I mean .
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: Yeah , buttons will be on the upper side , lower side we will just put the casing ,
User Interface: Oh , that's the other side . Oh , okay .
Marketing: so half of that will be look the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh , half a fruit . Oh , okay , okay .
Marketing: Yeah , not not the upper side . So from lower you can , it means while you are holding of {disfmarker} from this side you c you can have banana look or apple look , whatever .
User Interface: Okay , okay .
Marketing: So in that way we need not to d have different different shape mobiles everything , we will just design casings fruit shape .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah .
Marketing: And {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I think tho I think if you're gonna have a facia then you'd want to have it so that it does go over the buttons ,
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: 'cause when {disfmarker} if you think about it if they're wanting it , 'cause they want to look at it , if they're using it , and what they want to look at is facing away from them . It doesn't really {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm mm .
Project Manager: You know 'cause that'd be in the palm of their hand and they wouldn't be able to see it ,
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: unless you have sort of {disfmarker} you got the buttons options on one side , and you get the facia on the other side with a microphone so that you can place it face down . And you've got the facia , and you can just talk at the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Maybe . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} Okay , um so {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So you've narrowed it down to half a dozen options .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: s I guess we decided on material , right ? So that that spongy latex rubber everything feel ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and the colours we got down ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and the shape , maybe we'll just make it kinda mix and match type of shape or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . Well , um because {disfmarker} Well , I I'm not sure if we should go so far in the whole fruit thing , because I think we should maybe just take the inspiration from the fruit and uh because {vocalsound} what {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , so we stick with what we've got there .
User Interface: Yeah , w I think wh wha would {disfmarker} we're trying to get to twenty five , thirty five year olds who want it quite trendy as well they said . They wanted something that looks fancy and I think maybe fruit could be a bit of a {disfmarker} too much of a gimmick , but something ergonomically shaped and organic , like good to hold , based on fruits and natural things like that ,
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
User Interface: because al already we're going a bit gaudy with the yellow , you know .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: I mean we could make it nice pale yellow .
Project Manager: Well , it's kind of gotta be our company's yellow . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: So again I mean like we could have , uh I mean , we could quite easily have the the main body be a different
User Interface: Okay . Yeah .
Project Manager: colour , but have {disfmarker}
User Interface: Maybe we could have that pale yellow and then an outside bit bright yellow with , you said , the logan the slogan .
Project Manager: kinda going round , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Um I mean e even if {disfmarker}
User Interface: Because {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I mean not necessarily that the um the whole body has to be of the company colour , so you know um blue and yellow tend to go to we well together .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: So you have the main body blue with the yellow logo and slogan running up one side of it kind of thing .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah . Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: W sort of {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Great . {vocalsound} Um as for the energy source um , you know , almost every remote control uses just batteries , but we don't have to be limited by that . We can use a hand-dynamo . Um I don't know what that means , we crank it ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh It's I think it's basically the more you move i it , it's got a wee thing inside that just kinda {vocalsound} powers it .
Industrial Designer: Right , it's like those watches that you c
Project Manager: Uh yeah .
Industrial Designer: So , this might be an idea for something that people really wanna grab , you can shake it if it's out of power .
User Interface: Oh , a d a dynamo ?
Marketing: Yeah , {gap} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , I like that , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {gap}
User Interface: Yeah , like with those watches that you kind of twist .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah that's quite cool .
Industrial Designer: Okay . So if it if it's not working , I guess people's natural reaction anyway is to just shake the thing . {vocalsound}
Marketing: But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . You shake it and scream at it .
Marketing: But but do you think that it will be a good idea to use dynamo , tha these type of cells ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , it is , yeah .
Marketing: Because then people have to , well like if the cell is out of bat
Project Manager: It does leave them with an obligation to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , to mo Yeah .
Project Manager: Especially if they want to use it uh uh sp uh specifically as um voice activated .
Marketing: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: because most of the people {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Then if it's just sitting on the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah , then they have to pick it up and then activate it and then {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: That's true .
Project Manager: Right um what are the other options ?
Industrial Designer: Uh there's solar power . Um .
Marketing: Uh , solar power will w also not be a good idea , because then they have to keep m their mobiles outside in solar energy ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: and the days when there is no sola sunlight {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'm I'm with uh Raj on that ,
Industrial Designer: Okay , so probably just {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: I think , you know ,
Marketing: What we w
Project Manager: I've got I've got no I've got a north facing house , there's not really ever sun coming in my window .
User Interface: {gap}
Marketing: yeah . I think we should {disfmarker} a rechargeable {vocalsound} battery will be a good idea .
User Interface: But w {vocalsound} like just normal light ?
Project Manager: Oh that's true .
Marketing: They can they can recharge it .
Project Manager: I mean I w I w uh
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: that idea that I thought {vocalsound} um just on the basis of like ridding them of batteries and that kind of bother
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: is having a ,
User Interface: And we're a very environmentally friendly company , aren't we as well ?
Project Manager: yeah ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: having a rechargeable stand , so that not only it doubles as a stand , but um for using it as {disfmarker} uh recharging it , but also for using it as sound recognition .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
User Interface: Like like a hand {disfmarker} like one of those portable phones kind of thing .
Marketing: Yeah , that's {disfmarker} Yeah , exactly .
Project Manager: Yeah that kind of thing .
Industrial Designer: Okay . So uh a rechargeable battery {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Um the user interface , the buttons , I guess we talked about this already .
Project Manager: Rechargeable .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Um .
Project Manager: {gap} . What's chip on print ? What's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm ?
Project Manager: Sorry , never mind . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh th the uh the electronics um , basically the more features we add um {disfmarker} Oops , this one . So the more features we add the fancier chips we need to buy and put in ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: which adds to the cost as you can expect .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um . But uh I think we can keep it all under budget . So uh yes , so the speech thing you said our our techno our research and development department came up with some break-through .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So just in time . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , and if we if we're just having buttons and the speech then we're getting our cheapest option of chipping .
User Interface: Just in time .
Industrial Designer: Right , right .
Project Manager: That's good .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ,
Project Manager: Uh woah .
Industrial Designer: and keeping the L_C_D_ screen out . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , we're we're kind of uh we're kind of um {vocalsound} Excuse m I've just deleted that whole thing . Um we're kind of running out of time , so if you could {disfmarker} Uh . {vocalsound} Was that you ?
Industrial Designer: Huh ?
Project Manager: Um that was {disfmarker} your bit's covered ,
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah that was that was it .
Project Manager: I just dele I just accidentally deleted what I was supposed to say next .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Uh excuse me , Bri
Project Manager: Um , yeah .
Industrial Designer: So control F_ eight , right ?
Project Manager: Oh , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , mine seems to have turned off .
Project Manager: And I just touch the pad .
User Interface: I can't do anything .
Marketing: You just touch the pad , yeah .
User Interface: No .
Marketing: No ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's actually shut down .
User Interface: It's on , but there's nothing on the screen .
Project Manager: Okay , um now what we have {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Try uh flipping the screen down {gap} .
Project Manager: uh our next meeting's in half an hour
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Project Manager: and what I would like you guys to do is work on giving me a model in clay .
Industrial Designer: Oh ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I get to do it , too .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . It's you guys . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Oh neat .
User Interface: Cool . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So um , you know I mean , luckily we chose a nice simple shape .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um and further instructions will be sent by your personal coaches .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Save everything to the shared documents , is that right ?
Marketing: {gap} That's great .
Project Manager: Uh yeah , I hope I can recover this , 'cause I've accidentally deleted it .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Which doesn't really help me much .
User Interface: I think , I've saved mine already .
Project Manager: Yeah , can you save that {disfmarker} uh send that last one again , please , Raj ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: as I still can't find it on the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh it was under a different name .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I will show you , in shared documents .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Uh working components {gap} . Oh , you didn't get that . I will send new .
Project Manager: No . Okay , thank you .
Marketing: Uh I'll put it in shared documents , again .
Project Manager: Um yeah , Project , Project Documents .
Marketing: Project documents , sorry , I put it in the shared documents .
Project Manager: Uh right ,
Marketing: Uh yeah .
Project Manager: that's that's the that {disfmarker} it goes there automatically if you put it in Project Documents . Project Documents is on the um {vocalsound} desktop .
Marketing: Right , that's great . But I cou can't open that , because it w asks uh for some username or password .
Industrial Designer: Oh {gap} .
Project Manager: Really ? {gap}
Marketing: {gap} I'll show you .
Industrial Designer: Uh these lapel mics are trouble .
Marketing: Ts
Project Manager: Oh right , I think um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Sorry .
Project Manager: Hold on .
Marketing: Uh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , I don't know if y it it just ca it just came up on my um on my agenda . S {vocalsound} Um presumably there's clay somewhere . Um . {vocalsound} Four .
Marketing: Yeah , that's great .
Project Manager: Whoops . Light , light , please . Light . {vocalsound} Right , there you go .
Marketing: Yeah , th thank you .
Project Manager: Yeah , quite . And we're using this our basic chip set , so it's all good . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh sorry .
Industrial Designer: Are we done with our meeting ?
Marketing: Uh excuse me , Brian .
Project Manager: Um I think we're almost done , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: You have to keep your pen separate , because I used your pen .
Project Manager: Oh oops .
Marketing: S {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Sorry man . Uh okay , still didn't manage to get down all the last bits so we had rechargeable and {disfmarker} Uh . Apples . {vocalsound} Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm . 'Kay , so we came up with that , that's okay . What's supplements ? Supplements . Uh {vocalsound} uh . {vocalsound} See . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Cool . Fun .
Project Manager: I shoulda {gap} something like that . If I kn see I I knew that . I shoulda sort of engineered it so we k ended up making a diffi difficult shape .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Just for cruelty . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: Yeah . Star fruit . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I wonder if they mean like literally make it , sort of buttons and everything .
Marketing: So sh should Should we leave now , Brian ?
User Interface: No . Oh yeah , we can do buttons .
Marketing: Or we are going to discuss something ?
Project Manager: Um . Uh no , I think that's us our discussion over unless anybody's got questions {vocalsound} or confusions ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No I'm good .
Project Manager: 'cause I'm confused .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Huh ?
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Excuse me . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um uh we'll probably get questionnaire in a minute , it's a {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sorry . Thank you . Yeah .
Project Manager: There we go . Warning , finish meeting now .
Marketing: So .
Project Manager: I rounded it up far too fast . {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} . Where are we going ? My Documents , that's not what I want . My Project Documents . {vocalsound} There we go . | |
doc_191 | Project Manager: Okay . Uh first of all I'll start with the costs ,
Marketing: {gap} .
Project Manager: because that's going to influence our design .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh no .
Marketing: Oh , {gap} . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: If you {disfmarker} Don't know if you al already had a look or not ?
User Interface: No n I I already did it .
Industrial Designer: Did you do your questionnaire already ?
Marketing: No .
User Interface: It's not much . It's just one question .
Project Manager: Because we have a problem .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: If you look closely , you can see .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It wants {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um I already took the liberty to make some suggestions . {gap} . {gap} . {vocalsound} At the moment we have fifteen buttons , one L_C_D_ screen , one advanced chip-on-print . We use a uh sensor , that's for the speech . Uh we use kinetic energy . And we wanted uh the buttons in a special colour . Okay . What's the first thing we should drop ? The special colour of the buttons ?
User Interface: No that's that's for the trendy uh feel and look . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah but everything is .
Project Manager: Should we switch to a hand dynamo ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh that's the still the same idea as the kinetic energy because you have to use it and do things .
Marketing: No .
User Interface: Yeah , b but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah but young people like that .
Project Manager: Batteries ?
Marketing: So just do normal battery .
Project Manager: Batteries .
User Interface: I think the battery option .
Industrial Designer: Just a normal battery then , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {gap} .
Marketing: It has to be twelve and a half .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Or not ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh my goodness .
Project Manager: You're going to redesign something .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh no .
Project Manager: Okay , so we're at twenty five .
Marketing: Uh , yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Do we keep the shape doubly curved or g do we go for single curved ?
Industrial Designer: Well I guess i we'll have to go for single curve then . I mean we have to drop on everything .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: But we can keep it single curved with uh top view still curved , but from the side it's it's flat ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: and the screen screen is just {disfmarker} Well you just have to hold it like this then . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: How about {disfmarker} Sorry .
Project Manager: Uh another option I saw was to drop the buttons one through nine , so you can't directly access a channel , but instead use only the up and down arrows . That would skip nine buttons and four and a half Euros .
Industrial Designer: That's what I was thinking .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: A a
Marketing: Let's do it then . Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh then we have left {disfmarker}
User Interface: But we don't have any basic options any more .
Marketing: {gap} we {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh yeah . We do .
Industrial Designer: And uh 'cause then they don't have to n They don't need special colour as well .
Marketing: F_ eight .
Project Manager: They don't need special colours . Fine . That's more like it .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You were saying something .
Industrial Designer: That was exactly my point . Like let's drop all the buttons , and just make one
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} I mean we're gonna use the L_C_D_ screen anyway . So we'll just have to use it for everything .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And then you can make an overview of channels in the screen , and select a channel , click {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , some more menu options . Yeah . Okay so maybe we can drop few more buttons .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But um {disfmarker} Now let's look .
User Interface: Yeah we c could {disfmarker} We only need the the the the the menu arrow arrow button uh thing . Everything you can do with with the menu . So {disfmarker} With the display .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah we need one integrated button for everything then .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: The joystick .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Kind of . I was {disfmarker} Because {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , scroll-wheel , push-button uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . If you if you go to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Integrated scroll-wheel push-button , yeah .
Industrial Designer: If you go to our uh view , like you {disfmarker} if you are in the sound system there , uh and you wanna adjust the treble for instance ,
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: this is just uh an example ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: y y you wanna see a bar on which you can adjust it from zero to ten for example .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: But you want a sound preview of how it's gonna sound ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: right ? So you wanna click on it , activate it , whe and when you move it , hear the difference of the treble coming out or going into the sound .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So you'll you'll need a a kind of a joystick uh button .
Marketing: Yeah or or the integrated scroll-wheel push-button .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So that's kind of on your mouse and then you can click it , adjust it , click again and then you're out of it .
Industrial Designer: Exactly .
Marketing: But you still {disfmarker} But you then still need to have {disfmarker} Well you can use the scroll-wheel as well for um maybe for the channels . But you still um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah it's r Yeah .
Marketing: You still have to have some some button in the menu to go back .
User Interface: So you do one inte You can do one integrated scroll-wheel push-button .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: And then just drop all the other buttons .
Project Manager: Uh yeah .
Marketing: Well not all .
User Interface: But but th the cost of one integrated button is far more than a few extra push-buttons .
Marketing: Not s not sound I guess .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No .
Project Manager: Yeah . It's uh {disfmarker} One integrated button is five times the cost of a normal button .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: So we have to to make it s uh more uh {disfmarker} It has to be {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You could also drop j three more of these , without losing much functionality . You just drop the Okay and the Back .
Marketing: Yeah . Wh wh what what what is the what is the uh sample sensor sample speaker ?
Project Manager: Oh , that's for the speech .
Marketing: Speech recognition .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Could drop the speech recognition . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: S s Drop speech recognition ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah that's possible . {vocalsound}
User Interface: We we d
Industrial Designer: Yeah it's it's expensive , but uh we never considered the possibilities of uh speech recognition . 'Cause it can take the function of a lot of uh uh buttons .
Project Manager: Buttons .
Marketing: Buttons .
Project Manager: That's not very easy to use .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I
Marketing: No , it can be disturbed by by noise and
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah but lets just say that the speech recognition works .
Marketing: stuff like that . Let let let me see what's more what's more popular . I guess the the screen was more popular than um than the speech recognition .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I have to look on that . Let me see . {vocalsound} Uh well no I was wrong .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: There are more people who like speech recognition than an L_C_D_ screen .
Project Manager: Yep . Okay . Because if you d lose the L_C_D_ screen , we {vocalsound} need a lot of {disfmarker}
Marketing: But if it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But it it {disfmarker} it's a it's a both a hypers
User Interface: We lose our whole concept .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Uh so {disfmarker} No we just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We need a lot of extra buttons .
Marketing: No , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: We keep the L_C_D_ .
Marketing: Well we Yeah we keep the screen . I mean it's it's about the same . Eight one to ninety one percent , uh sixty six to seventy six .
Project Manager: Okay
Industrial Designer: We uh we we haven't really integrated this {disfmarker} the speech into the system ,
Project Manager: so we drop the speech .
Industrial Designer: so we can might as well s drop that . {gap}
Project Manager: And drop it yeah ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Let's drop the speech .
Project Manager: Okay . S Fo Four less Euros . So we still have three and a half Euro to lose .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Sixteen Euros .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We need to lose some buttons .
Marketing: But y y
Project Manager: Yeah if you lose the the Back , the Okay button {disfmarker} Uh v let's say we only have the four arrows , and the Menu button .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Then you're {disfmarker}
Marketing: And then and then use um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh and the power button we have also .
Marketing: The the {disfmarker} Okay . And the menu button does also does the okay function then .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: And then when you in the menu {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So that's one Euro .
Marketing: S so so you activate the menu .
User Interface: If we do uh two integrated scroll-wheel push-buttons , we can drop all the the push-buttons .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah ? And {gap} {disfmarker}
User Interface: With with one uh integrated button we can uh do the whole menu thing . With the other , we can do the the channel , the volume , et cetera .
Marketing: Yeah yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah . {gap} .
Project Manager: That would save zero point two Euros compared to {disfmarker} No .
User Interface: No it's three Euros . No ? Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . To This together is more expensive than {disfmarker} Oof , it's almost the same as t keeping this .
User Interface: No it's it's n Yeah . Yeah yeah yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And we can drop these two .
Marketing: Well okay .
User Interface: It's the {disfmarker}
Marketing: For example if you have f f four buttons , {vocalsound} channel up and down , uh volume left right {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Volume .
Marketing: Okay , I've {disfmarker} I think we have to keep that .
Project Manager: And the power button .
Marketing: And then {disfmarker} and the power button . So that's five .
Project Manager: That's the basic .
Marketing: That's basic . That that's what you need anyway . And then for the menu , um you can have a button that activates menu . Or d or do we just integrate an an an scroll-wheel with a push-button . And then if the moment you use the scroll-wheel , the the the menu gets activated , and then you can scroll , choose an option , click on it , it goes into an feature . Click on it again , selects features , scroll , adjust it . Click again , it's okay . Then you only need one button to move back . Or or under each option , you set a {disfmarker} you set an a screen thing what says back , and you select that one , click again , and you go one step back . And in that menu , scroll , click , one step back .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So that then you need five buttons , and one integrated scroll-wheel push-button .
Project Manager: Yep . Okay th that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: But we can't drop three buttons .
Industrial Designer: Which {gap} {disfmarker} That's even {disfmarker}
Marketing: But I see that's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah that's one Euro more expensive .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that's not a good idea .
Project Manager: That's not an option .
Marketing: Because which buttons do we have now ? Those five which I mentioned , and then menu , and then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Menu , power .
Marketing: Yeah . F of the four things ?
Project Manager: Four arrows ?
Marketing: Yeah , th power .
Project Manager: Power . Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , if you if you go to eight {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Which more ?
Industrial Designer: I don't know how to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . Okay . So four arrows ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh power I believe ?
Marketing: Power . Th Yeah that's five .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} We have a Back and a Okay button .
Marketing: Yeah , okay that's seven ,
Project Manager: And the Menu .
Marketing: and one to activate the menu , yeah . So okay that's eight . Well we can't reduce that . We we keep the display .
Project Manager: Yeah , and even if we drop three buttons from here , we still have to make some adjustments around here . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh , well okay . Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , we need the chip for the for the L_C_ display .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: The L_C_D_ ? Yeah .
User Interface: Let's make the {disfmarker} Let's make the case plastic .
Marketing: Yeah well we need the advanced {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Then I rather make it wood .
Marketing: Instead of r
Project Manager: Because then also it's good in the market with the forty five plus uh people .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . True .
Marketing: Yeah but but that's not our market .
User Interface: But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No that {disfmarker} maybe not . But maybe it's better than plastic anyway .
Marketing: Ah no , hard plastic . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Plastic with a with a special colour .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh .
User Interface: A woo wood uh wood uh wood colour .
Marketing: Yeah , plastic with special colour .
Project Manager: Yeah ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} No but I I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah okay uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's an option . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Because we have to use the special colour anyway . You forgot that .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yep . Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: So we do one one s
Marketing: {vocalsound} So let's go for the plastic .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , okay . Plastic .
Marketing: And since it's not kinetic , it doesn't have to flip around that much ?
Project Manager: Uh that's easy because plastic is free . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: We still have problem of two Euros .
Project Manager: Yeah , okay . Uh if we dropped uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No the buttons , those are really needed .
Project Manager: Yeah ?
User Interface: Yeah th th it's it's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah we can't drop them .
User Interface: An advanced chip-on-print . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You still need that .
Industrial Designer: Yeah uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Do we really need that advanced chip for an L_C_D_ display ?
Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker} uh uh {disfmarker} Yeah . So the other option would be to go for the the sample speaker , and {disfmarker} Which can use a regular chip , wh which is six Euros in total .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} S
Industrial Designer: That doesn't matter .
Marketing: Oh . I rather keep I rather keep the display .
Project Manager: No , I keep the re Yeah . Yeah . Because we already designed for it . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well yeah .
Marketing: So the only option is an hand dynamo .
Industrial Designer: Exactly .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah and something else .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah but the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Oh no tha Oh that's one Euro , right .
Industrial Designer: uh can't we f uh fit all the buttons in an intreg integrated scroll push-button ? 'Cause that will save us one and a half Euro already . And then if w
Marketing: And then integrated s Yeah but that would make it not so easy to use .
Project Manager: No y you would rec
Marketing: I mean it's not that important , easy to use , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Then you have {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Th then we have to scroll through a lot of menus to be able to get where you want , huh ?
Project Manager: Then you still need two additional buttons I believe .
Industrial Designer: And uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: For the volume .
Industrial Designer: Yeah d at l Yeah . At least one for power .
Project Manager: You can use those {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: But the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Oh yeah and power . That's three buttons and this would cost {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Oh . Yeah it's just as expensive as what we have now .
User Interface: But the integrated uh button ? How many func functions can it uh have ?
Project Manager: Yeah . Three . Up , down , Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah endlessly . I mean it can be a power button as soon as it powered on .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: You can go into you in you main menu ,
Marketing: You you press it for like three seconds .
Industrial Designer: you can choose uh flip channel , uh you can choose sound options , any options .
Marketing: Then then then you should do everything in the menu . On the screen .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , okay . It would save enough {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Maybe we should . 'Cause we don't have money and w we want the screen .
Project Manager: Yeah you can choose this , drop these , then we have a half Euro left .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So we can maybe still use power button .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , but we'd {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Alright .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I guess we have to .
Marketing: It s it saves us four Euros and it costs us two and a half . So let's see , we we drop the price by one and a half .
Project Manager: Yeah . You see ?
Industrial Designer: We'll we'll be on {disfmarker}
Marketing: But we still have thirteen left .
Project Manager: Oh still {disfmarker} Yeah ? Oh then I miscalculated . Oh yeah .
Marketing: Thirteen . So still half . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Shit . Drop the special colour . {vocalsound}
Marketing: There goes the special co {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh no .
Marketing: Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That would make it less appealing . So that's no option .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} 'Kay . What else ? Uncurved ?
User Interface: No no , it has to be um curved .
Marketing: We sure about the advanced chip we need for the display ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah it says right here .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} They made it very easy for us . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Well yeah . {vocalsound} {gap} yeah . We made it hard for ourselves with the display , but it's a cool feature .
Project Manager: Ah , I don't think I can s uh persuade the management to say , this is better for the market so you sell more than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay . Wh what we could do is um {disfmarker} drop the the special colour , and uh do the special colour for the buttons .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Buttons . That's {disfmarker} Oh yeah since we only have one button .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah but I mean what is meant by special colour ?
Project Manager: I just m I don't {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}
User Interface: Just something else than than black or white I think .
Project Manager: Uh yeah it's {disfmarker} I think it's grey , regular .
Marketing: S yeah . Alright .
Project Manager: Grey and rubber .
Industrial Designer: But we definitely want the thing to be a special colour though .
Project Manager: Of plastic .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Damn .
Marketing: So I rather have an hand dynamo {vocalsound} than than drop the colour .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah and then {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah yeah yeah .
Marketing: You can still play with it then I guess . I don't know .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , but a hand dynamo costs a lot of energy to keep the screen working . So I guess that isn't an option .
User Interface: The display {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well , you only have to power it up when you wanna use it .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: The {disfmarker} But if you have to power the for ten minutes , {vocalsound} then the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I don't know .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: No I don't think the current status of uh chips are pretty uh energy conserving , no .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah true .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Let's let's go for the hand dynamo then .
Project Manager: Yeah hand dynamo ? Do you want an extra button ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Or or do we {disfmarker} Or do we do uncurved and flat ? Instead of {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No no it has to be curved .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah it has to be curved and has to have that colour .
User Interface: Yeah . Just put a special special colour of the buttons , or something .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: And a screen .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . That's the most import
Project Manager: Yep ? Instead of an additional power button ?
User Interface: Yeah or spe special form ?
Marketing: Yeah . S what what is special f Oh yeah , special form .
Project Manager: Yeah ?
Marketing: Maybe that's nicer .
Project Manager: It's for scroll {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Without {disfmarker}
Marketing: But we don't have any buttons .
Industrial Designer: We only have {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So do {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . But it's it's for the integrated button , I think also . Or {disfmarker}
Marketing: d Uh make it a special colour then .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah ma make it a special colour then .
Project Manager: Yeah but it's just a scroll-wheel which you can push down . So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . Okay . Yeah .
Marketing: Okay . Make it a special colour and then it look fancy .
Project Manager: Yeah ? So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: Woah we're within budget .
Marketing: {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's a miracle . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh just {disfmarker}
Marketing: Let's let's save it .
User Interface: oh ma make it two special colours , but we only have one button .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Let's do it like this , I mean , because it does not lose our identity of the product as we {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah ? {vocalsound} Okay . Um , well {disfmarker} {gap} . 'Kay , this was old .
Industrial Designer: Well we come back to the drawing board then , huh ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah all your designs are uh pretty much {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah back to work . Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Did I save it ?
Industrial Designer: It's silly 'cause we we should have had this meeting before we start drawing .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah but that but that's the fun part of it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I I wanted to go , but I wasn't allowed . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah ? {gap} okay .
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: Uh I just forgot to save this . Just a minute . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah what's the next uh phase ?
Project Manager: Yeah , this the last phase of course , so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh the agenda . By your humble P_M_ .
Project Manager: Hmm . {vocalsound} Oh .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh f {vocalsound} Frustrated . {vocalsound} Alright . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Well we first should have had a uh prototype presentation . But well as you saw that hadn't made no sense , because we had to drop it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Drop everything . Yeah .
Marketing: Drop , yeah .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We went straight into finance ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah it was more important , so I just
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: For {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: pushed up the agenda .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh , evaluation criteria . You have t produced something about that ?
Marketing: Yeah that that's {disfmarker} Yeah . I uh I sure did . And it combines with product evaluation . Uh so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh you put it in the {gap} .
Marketing: We all have to keep in mind what has changed now . So what we have left on the {disfmarker} Because evaluation is based on the initial uh user requirements .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: F_ five .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Let's make it big . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Well we evaluate uh the design with a seven point scale , as following . Well the remote controls according criteria blah blah blah . True or false , and then on a scale of seven points , a {gap} scale , as we all know it .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} Well the criteria are based on the user requirements , uh the trends from the marketing research , and the marketing strategy of the company itself . Um well they are in a Word document , which I will open now .
Project Manager: Alt up
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . I don't know it's open yet . No . And we all have to uh agree on a certain level . What's this ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Freaky . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh . I don't know . Um {disfmarker} Well the first point is the remote control matches the operating behaviour of the young user . So that means the operating behaviour was using quite a lot of functions . How do you think about that ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I think it does . Because the operating {gap} behaviour of the young user was also defined in colour and shape and the use of L_C_D_ ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: right ?
Project Manager: Uh , of course we dropped a little bit of those uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah the us u It it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: it's it's mainly con mainly concentrating on a lot of functions , in this question .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So do you think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well , we have extended menus , on the on the L_C_D_ screen . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . You can you can ma
User Interface: Yep .
Marketing: Yeah , you can make a lot of extended menus . That's true . I mean the the possibilities are almost unlimited , to to build in menus in the screen .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I {gap} No .
Marketing: So on a scale from one to seven , what do you think ?
User Interface: Two or three . Two or three .
Marketing: Huh ? Two or three ? Something like that ?
Project Manager: Two .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Well we have to choose one . So uh what do you say ?
Project Manager: Uh y we should fill this in now .
Marketing: I agree on two .
Project Manager: Yeah okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I uh I say two , personally . But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah in the new design I s would say it's three . But now , in original design I say two .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah alright .
Marketing: Yeah well we have to evaluate I guess what we have now .
Project Manager: Okay then I say three .
Marketing: Yeah ? You say three ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah .
Marketing: and you you said al also three ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Three ? Okay well I say still two , but it has to be three then .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Hey , you're marketing , eh . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah I know . So it's made bold . But it's {disfmarker} nah , it's not very clear on the sc
Project Manager: Hmm . M maybe underline .
User Interface: Or give it a colour .
Marketing: Maybe other colour , yeah . That's better .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Red . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} Yeah . Alright . Oh , it doesn't have to be bold anymore .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh yeah very true .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Alright . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah true one . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um well the remote control has {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Wha {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} He types everything . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Definitely one . It has to be .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} The remote control has irrelevant or less used functions . For example audio settings and screen settings .
User Interface: It hides uh basic functions . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Everything . {vocalsound} You don't use anything else . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Well , yeah . So it it's a very true point . I mean it hides all those function .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You're not gonna find them .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah okay . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah true .
Marketing: But , I mean uh they're hidden in the screen . If you don't want to use them , you don't s you s just scroll over them . And you place them {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} F I don't know where . So that's very true , I guess , for our case .
Industrial Designer: Yeah the next {disfmarker} Not so much so .
Marketing: Uh the second point . It shows the relevant and most used functions .
Project Manager: Nope .
Marketing: Power button . Do we ha still have a power button ?
Project Manager: Uh check with the Excel sheet .
Marketing: Well yeah the button's integrated , huh ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} I think we are {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah it's uh it's integrated .
Marketing: Yeah we dropped it . You j you just push it in for {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's in {disfmarker} Oh yeah it was integrateds . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah integrate it .
Marketing: Yeah just just push it in for th for three seconds or something , and then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: E exactly just like a m mobile .
Marketing: Yeah . I don't know . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Just go scrolling and it will activate . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . Um it shows the relevant and most used functions .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah uh on the other {disfmarker} uh on one side I would say yes , and the other side I would say no . So it's {disfmarker} I don't know .
Project Manager: It shows the most used functions and they are relevant , but {disfmarker}
User Interface: Can you uh change channels directly with with just one button ?
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: No , you have to scroll through the menu , before
Marketing: With the scroll butt Yeah and then say channel . And then {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . So it's it's not {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Well uh we should b build it so that if you don't kind of push into the menu or something , if {disfmarker} When it's on , yeah , it's turned on ,
Project Manager: You say you double click on the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm ?
Industrial Designer: It automatically has the the programme and the volume function ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but as soon as you click it you go into the menu or some {gap} {disfmarker} Of you {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Or you double click it .
Marketing: But but how do you change from volume to channel ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No because it has four arrows , right ?
Project Manager: No , not anymore .
User Interface: No . {vocalsound}
Marketing: No . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Because he's {gap} now have a scroll-wheel that you can push in .
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Like on the the mouse .
Industrial Designer: Yeah I was thinking still about our uh integrated joystick .
Marketing: No we have n we have no buttons left . So {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Say .
Marketing: the joystick was not an option .
Industrial Designer: Yeah that is a bummer .
Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} so you hav {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: So you you have to double-click , I mean , for , I mean , uh volume ,
Project Manager: To get into menu . Yeah .
Marketing: and three double click for the menu , or something .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh no .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Or hold it ten seconds . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We'll make it a Morse code .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah . Alright .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But but ease of use was not very important , may I remind you .
Project Manager: No no no . Uh it should be trendy . {vocalsound}
Marketing: So that's {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah but that that's not a question .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh the remote control shows the relevant and most used functions .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well I think it's pretty much in the middle .
Project Manager: Yeah . Four .
Marketing: You have to search for them in in the in the s in the screen , in the menu . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , im {disfmarker} in the menu .
User Interface: Seven . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So maybe it's more like a f a five . Or {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah . Five .
Industrial Designer: Yeah I would go for five or six , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Five or six ?
Project Manager: Five .
User Interface: Five . Yep .
Industrial Designer: Okay five .
Marketing: Five ? Alright .
Industrial Designer: Let's not diss our remote .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: It's the weirdest remote control I've ever seen . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yep . Just one button . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well it's different . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Alright . Uh the the remote control makes use of technolog technological innovation like L_C_D_ screen and speech recognition .
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker} Uh yep .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Well yeah but we dropped the speech recognition . But it has at least one innovation .
Project Manager: Yeah , it's still {disfmarker} Yeah , I say two .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We still have the fruit and vegetable print .
Marketing: I say two then .
Project Manager: Oh , that's the next . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that that's not that's not this question . Uh thi uh that's the other question .
Industrial Designer: Fr Oh I mean the {disfmarker} Oh never mind . I'm a bit lost .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: This one .
User Interface: I think a two . No .
Project Manager: Two .
Marketing: Two yeah .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
User Interface: Yep .
Marketing: I think L_C_D_'s more useful than speech {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah definitely .
Marketing: What ? Oh not the bold one .
Industrial Designer: It's way more practical , yeah .
Marketing: Right . Okay , it has a fancy look and feel by using fruit and vegetable prints , primary colours and sponge-like material .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} It should have been two questions . {vocalsound} I realise now , because {vocalsound} sponge-like material is dropped .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But the look and feel {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You still have rubber d Or no .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . So we still uh we still have the primary colours . But only on the on the outside , not on the button .
User Interface: No you got a plastic .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: The button has also colour . Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} The one button we have . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . The one .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah still we we dropped also on the the double uh curve .
Project Manager: Yeah you could check with the Excel sheet .
Marketing: Mm mm .
User Interface: Yeah . You only have one {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah we have single curve now ,
Industrial Designer: And and colour .
Marketing: and no and no material
Industrial Designer: Yeah . S
Marketing: . So maybe in the middle or something .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Four . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , I mean it's
Project Manager: Yeah or three .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: worth the {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: We have something .
Industrial Designer: Actually we d we didn't do so well on this one . Because it's basically an old one , uh with little curve on the side , and in a different colour . Still , it's still hard .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I mean the sponge-like and the three D_ shape , that would give it something young and fresh .
Project Manager: New . Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . But then we would have to drop the screen .
User Interface: Red . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh red . Yeah .
Project Manager: You like both . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} I like bold .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh the remote control displays the corporate logo . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um oh yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm yeah yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Of course .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I just couldn't {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} You just have to draw it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um , just one minute .
User Interface: It's the white part uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah but it {disfmarker} be because uh we couldn't hardly draw on the b s on the lower half of the screen , we could not make it big enough to actually draw in the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: We have a we have a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So I mean I wanted to put digits on the buttons as well . But {disfmarker}
Marketing: But there's uh enough space for the corporate logo . I mean , {vocalsound} if there's only one thing .
Industrial Designer: Hell yeah . If we have only one button .
Marketing: Yeah . So I will say that is very true .
Project Manager: {gap} .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: And even the shape we have now uh simulates kind of an R_ and the reversed R_ ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: doesn't it ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} The remote control is easy to use . Well I would say {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No .
Marketing: Skill , uh I would say six , or something . I don't think it's easy to use , or not so .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} The only e the only thing easy about it is that you don't have to move your fingers . 'Cause it has only one button .
User Interface: Ah i
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: And that you only have to control one button . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah exactly .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . It it it has a nice screen . But {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: It gives visual feedback . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . Well I I would say a five or a six .
User Interface: I think a five . Five . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I would say six .
Marketing: What do you say ? Easy to use ? Five or a six ?
Industrial Designer: It's really not easy to use .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No not anymore .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: 'Cause you're putting everything {disfmarker}
Marketing: So a six , more .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , uh I would go for the six too . So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Most votes count . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um well , another question ,
User Interface: Yeah that looks uh great .
Marketing: uh the remote control is durable .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I don't know if that's the correct word .
User Interface: Yeah . Nah {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Definitely in casing , 'cause we have a hard plastic
Marketing: But uh {disfmarker} In use , both battery as casing ?
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah because the the batteries , those thingies last forever .
Marketing: Yeah ? True , true .
Industrial Designer: And the the casing , hard plastic also lasts forever .
Marketing: And the casing is plastic , {gap} ?
User Interface: Yep .
Marketing: Yeah . If you don't drop it too much , it's uh should last pretty long .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So I would go for one .
Marketing: Yeah ? But uh I think rubber compared is better . So I think a two is more appropriate
User Interface: Yeah . S
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Okay yeah .
Marketing: than {disfmarker}
User Interface: Wow . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . Logo .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay I will go {disfmarker} go for two . {vocalsound} Uh the last one ? The remote control's a good example for company's motto , we put the fashion in electronics .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh . No m
User Interface: No we put the electronics into the fashion . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah well {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I would g
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap} uh {disfmarker} {gap} turn around . Yeah . But um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I would go for four .
Project Manager: No {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah ?
Industrial Designer: Because we kind of tried to but we kind of failed with the budget that we have .
Marketing: It's not {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah , true .
Project Manager: Yeah okay .
Marketing: So a four . It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it g it g goes , it's not the best we could do , I guess .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: But it all has to do with the budget , because it's it's not the bad idea we had , so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , four is okay .
Marketing: Alright , yeah . Right .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: That's it .
Marketing: So if I understood it right , we have to count these numbers .
Project Manager: Ooh . And {disfmarker} Yeah ? What ?
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} Yeah . Mm-hmm . Oh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Oh {disfmarker} Alright . Word document , the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . That {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah we have to count them .
Project Manager: Count them . Add them ? Or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} Yeah just add them and then uh divide them .
Project Manager: Could somebody start calculator ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Mm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Ah we can do the math . Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I all made it po I I all made it
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I all made it possible uh for a positive questions , so we can count it .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: I mean if you have reversed question , you have to reverse the scale ,
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah . You have to {disfmarker}
Marketing: uh {disfmarker} Yes .
Project Manager: 'Kay . So four and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Did you make this questionnaire or what ?
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} Thanks . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Nice work .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Oh .
User Interface: Three plus ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I wouldn't be able to do it that fast .
Project Manager: O one .
User Interface: Plus one .
Project Manager: Plus five .
User Interface: Plus five ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh {disfmarker} Easy .
Project Manager: Bo {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Question number four , yeah ?
Project Manager: Uh two .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Four .
User Interface: Oh . Wait a second . Oh . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: F
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's it's gone wrong .
Marketing: {vocalsound} How hard is it ?
User Interface: Okay . It's your turn .
Industrial Designer: Pretty difficult .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah just use {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Start over ?
User Interface: No it's if you press twice on the plus button , then you get s s
Marketing: Oh there tho uh there's no n There's no num pads .
Project Manager: You can {disfmarker} Oh yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: No . That's why it's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's a it's a bit uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Just type in the digits . They're all one digit numbers right ? And then you can count them together .
Marketing: Yeah . I think you can just count them by a {disfmarker}
User Interface: Just count it to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Um let's move over .
Project Manager: Okay . Three , four , nine .
Marketing: Three , plus one , four . Nine .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Uh , yeah . Are you here ?
Industrial Designer: Eleven .
Marketing: Eleven .
Project Manager: Eleven ,
Industrial Designer: Fifteen .
Marketing: Fifteen .
Project Manager: fifteen .
User Interface: Sixteen .
Industrial Designer: Sixteen .
Marketing: Sixteen , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Seventeen .
Project Manager: Seventeen .
Marketing: No sixteen . Uh sixteen plus six .
Industrial Designer: Oh what ?
User Interface: Twenty two . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: S Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} How hard is this ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: Twenty two . Twenty two , yeah ?
User Interface: Twenty four . Twenty six .
Industrial Designer: Never mind . Twenty four . Twenty eight .
Marketing: Tw
User Interface: Oh , sorry . {gap} .
Marketing: Twenty {disfmarker} Twenty eight .
Project Manager: That was the last one . That was that .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh my .
Industrial Designer: Twenty eight .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay . Twenty eight .
Project Manager: So divided by nine .
Marketing: Twen Uh okay . By nine .
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: That's uh three uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Or le less than a three .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah the lower the {disfmarker} The lower the score the better , right ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Twenty eight
Industrial Designer: Yeah but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Divided by nine .
Marketing: di divided by nine
Project Manager: So thr t two .
Marketing: makes three point one one one one one one one .
Project Manager: So we're better than average .
Industrial Designer: But {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I Are you sure we {disfmarker} this number actually tells us somethings ?
Project Manager: No . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I don't think so because some questions are related to positive issues and some to negative .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Some questions are {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So if you give a true to a positive , it actually means that the low {disfmarker} the lower the better . But if you give true to a negative question {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , but there are no negative questions I guess .
Industrial Designer: No ?
Marketing: Good example . Durable use .
Industrial Designer: Durable , that's good .
Marketing: Easy to use . This {gap} is good .
Industrial Designer: Easy to use . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Fancy look and feel , that's good .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {gap} .
Marketing: Technology innovation was good , because of a marketing uh requirement .
Industrial Designer: Also good . Yeah okay .
Marketing: Re relevant most used function .
Industrial Designer: I guess you did do it .
Marketing: And hides these functions . {vocalsound} That was also a good thing .
User Interface: Oh yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah yeah . No {disfmarker}
Marketing: And then matches the opera of the {gap} user was also a good thing .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Okay .
Marketing: So it were all positive questions , by uh by purpose . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah true .
Marketing: Yes , so the {disfmarker} It tells us something , yes . Becau But the picture would be a lot different if we didn't have to drop those uh those things , I guess .
User Interface: Oh great .
Project Manager: Things , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah definitely definitely .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Because now it's just an average {disfmarker} It's remote .
Marketing: Yeah . Nah it it's it's better than average , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah okay because of the L_C_D_ screen . But uh it looks and stuff , it still uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . So th
Project Manager: It's still {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Has some shortcomings .
Industrial Designer: it's not , it's not really eye-catching , except for the colour .
Marketing: No .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: The colour and the screen .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um this we had , this we had . We have to do a product evaluation .
Industrial Designer: Product evaluation .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh prototype presentation we dropped . So {disfmarker} Uh the finance we looked . We have redesigned . Uh not on that , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah we we have to maybe if we have to redesign it on this {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So you can just make one big L_C_D_ screen . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay it's your turn now . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Shall we try ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} With some casing around it , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Black . Okay uh we're still gonna go for the fancy colours ?
Project Manager: Yeah uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But are we gonna stick with the green or are we gonna do blue ?
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah we we can just uh use this one . And then uh over-paint it with uh uh the green uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: The the button has a special colour , the frame has a special colour .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: he only needs one button .
Industrial Designer: One scroll button and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's plastic . {vocalsound} And single curved .
User Interface: Yeah . Or we have to delete this one or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Oh and you might want to add a uh infrared LED .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh {disfmarker} oh no . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Otherwise it uh doesn't function uh so well .
Industrial Designer: For what ?
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Do we have to do other things ?
Project Manager: Well I have to um um make an uh report of every decision we made so far .
Marketing: Or just redesign ? {vocalsound} Alright .
Project Manager: And I try to get chip just before uh I uh receive the Excel sheet .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So I {disfmarker}
Marketing: So you made a start , right ?
Project Manager: Yeah I'm I'm somewhere , but maybe you can help me .
Industrial Designer: Should give it some time ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yay .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay , but how do we make the the scroll uh button ?
Project Manager: I was here . So {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's just one {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Have to take this away also .
Marketing: Alright .
User Interface: yeah .
Project Manager: Ah {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And this um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh that's the infrared uh {vocalsound} thing . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah , of course .
Marketing: The the target group has a weak spot for fruit and vegetables , like primary colours , spongy shape .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um pen yeah ? Format . Current colour red .
Marketing: The playfulness , we decided to use kinetic energy as a power sour
Industrial Designer: Oh {disfmarker} Yeah we did our special colour for the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Line widths , now that's a ten .
Marketing: That's conceptual , yes .
Project Manager: That's enough to get started with , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . Um , uh it's just a scroll {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: It's gonna be one str scroll .
User Interface: Yeah , is it's horizontal or vertical ?
Marketing: How many pages ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh , I just took one for every step and then a conclusion .
User Interface: I think {disfmarker}
Marketing: Alright . Y you have you have done the first two .
Industrial Designer: Horizontal's easier too ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: 'cause you can {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay , and and the look and feel is {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Is it more natural than this ?
Project Manager: Well I think I have to make a p an issue called finance .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: So let's say {disfmarker} Whoops . 'Kay .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Basically . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It doesn't look like uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: The items we had to drop . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Uh it {disfmarker} it's it's not {disfmarker} Yeah . It's not very fashionable anymore . But uh it's okay .
Industrial Designer: It's really ugly .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Where did we start with price ?
User Interface: Maybe m make it bigger ? Or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Twenty six and a half .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Or not ? Or twenty six ? Something like that .
User Interface: Yeah . That looks little bit more uh {disfmarker} Maybe that's a s a special colour for it . So we can make it uh special ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: This ?
Industrial Designer: What do you mean ? Like a other colour than this one ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Or or speckles in it ? I dunno . Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Speckles ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah can we do it uh {disfmarker} uh can we do a print ?
User Interface: ..$ I'm not sure .
Project Manager: ... . I don't think so , if you see the options . But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think we have to choose , yeah ?
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay special colour . We do have special colour .
User Interface: Yeah red is already a special colour , I think . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Does it mean uh that {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It's not very special , but uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Shall we just give it some dots to make it look pretty ?
User Interface: Yeah . Just uh put the purple uh purple on it . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Purdy .
Marketing: Yeah . Some some big dots .
Industrial Designer: Purple ?
User Interface: That's trendy .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Oh no my remote has acne .
Marketing: ... . We have the original balance sheet , or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Woah .
Industrial Designer: No . That's why we have that button .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh yeah .
Industrial Designer: It's so cute .
User Interface: Hmm . Oh what ?
Industrial Designer: Doh .
Marketing: Woah .
User Interface: {gap} ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Just cut . Control Z_ .
User Interface: Oh no . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Is that that ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: No no . Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: How the {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} did we do that ?
User Interface: Oh it's it's just one computer ? Or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Just dual screen .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No . But can we delete it , just with delete ? Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: We can try .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That doesn't respond also to the undo . It looks like it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: Crashed . {vocalsound} Oh , no .
Industrial Designer: No , {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Very nice .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Where do you want some more dots ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , over here . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You can't even draw anymore .
User Interface: Hmm ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Y y you you {vocalsound}
User Interface: What's this ?
Project Manager: Even children can draw . {vocalsound}
Marketing: you push the button or something . Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Can you just push pen and then keep on {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh yeah . Oh that's the select button .
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: It's uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay , it's not the prettiest , I know .
User Interface: No , it looks {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's not so random huh ?
Marketing: Lot of options .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's okay . Specially the the R_ . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , the R_ and another R_ .
Industrial Designer: Yeah okay .
Marketing: It's called the Real Remote , right ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Maybe maybe it c it can say that . The Real Remote .
Project Manager: Yeah just on the the m um the L_C_D_ display .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Welcome . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: This is your Real Remote . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: We can make a l a logo .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Like uh {gap} put it like the shape .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: D designed by {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Something like that .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: I mean it's not too uh {disfmarker} That's not their logo , is it ?
User Interface: No . Do they have a lo {disfmarker} Oh , the {disfmarker} here . This i this is the logo .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Two R_s and a one {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . You can just reuse that , because the name is the same . Initials .
User Interface: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: You can copy and paste the picture if you want .
Industrial Designer: How {gap} {disfmarker} Shall we do the logo in black or not ?
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} What is that ? Look more {disfmarker} Looks more like a campfire .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Are you dissing my drawing ? {vocalsound} This one ?
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It looks like a ribbon . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} . Yeah .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So who wants to draw ? This is actually quite fun . Do we need to do anything ?
User Interface: Are we uh ready ? Uh {disfmarker} Or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I hear you people are typing .
Marketing: Type in your report .
Industrial Designer: Oh , okay .
Marketing: I don't see any new messages . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Luckily .
Marketing: Hmm ? Luckily , yeah .
User Interface: Is this uh the last assignment ? Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah , it's uh
User Interface: Final {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It's almost four .
Marketing: What time do we have to deliver the report ? Four o'clock or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} At four , yeah , {gap} ?
Marketing: Or before that ?
Project Manager: Okay . And copy this .
Marketing: Just compare uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Just a minute .
Industrial Designer: This is really bizarre .
Project Manager: It's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It looks like there's a {disfmarker} It looks like a butterfly .
User Interface: Um bug . Bug .
Project Manager: It's somewhere {disfmarker} I d It isn't inside .
User Interface: No it's in inside the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , and don't know how it's {disfmarker} or eject it .
Marketing: No it's on the on the beamer I guess .
User Interface: No it {disfmarker} Oh . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: From up there ?
Industrial Designer: No , but it i It's not a bu a beamer .
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: B It's a normal T_V_ screen , kind of thing .
Project Manager: Yeah it's somewhere in here .
User Interface: Hey , you've got it uh read only . So you have to uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Save copy .
Marketing: Yeah . Strange . This something what's projection from behind , I guess .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} .
Project Manager: {gap} .
User Interface: It's too uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh . Yeah there is some kind of projection I think .
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: Yeah it it's a beamer , but then with a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: With a with a mirror , huh ? Or something .
Marketing: within a mirror , yeah .
Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound} {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So it looks like a big screen , but {gap} {disfmarker} in fact it isn't .
Industrial Designer: So are we gonna change anything to this ?
User Interface: It is {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I mean is it gonna {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well it's it's single single curved .
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's now single curved . So {disfmarker} It's flat . Oh no .
Industrial Designer: This is gonna be flat . Yeah exactly .
Marketing: Th this is flat . Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay . It doesn't matter . It's it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: But it's it's better to have in the front , this kind of shape , because it looks nice .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I mean you see more of this than of that .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , more like that .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . And this is also gonna be {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's not very uh ideal . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Nope .
Marketing: Do like this .
Industrial Designer: But sometimes then uh all of a sudden it does work .
Marketing: Yeah . What's this ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's the detector uh for the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Ooh .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Maybe {disfmarker}
Marketing: But I don't see a detector over there .
User Interface: Yeah . I don't know .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No it's {disfmarker} I think you only need two points . Or not . No , you sh
Marketing: I thought it was a kind of thing to put it on , and then draw right lines or something .
User Interface: Maybe that's why it's it's not working , because it's more {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Slanted yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} Or just messed it up . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well maybe .
User Interface: Oh . {vocalsound} Oh yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah it it matters for the aim of this thing .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah but it wasn't good . {vocalsound}
User Interface: You've to make it s uh ninety degrees .
Marketing: Yeah it it has to touch the corners , I guess . But th this one wasn't good , because if I was drawing here , I drew a line and then it came over here .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um now you probably have to recalibrate .
User Interface: You have {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh , five minutes to the end of the meeting .
User Interface: Oh we're always long .
Marketing: Oh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And the recalibration is done using this icon here .
User Interface: Yeah , can we t can we get to that @ i
Marketing: Ooh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh it's not working anymore . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah well I just {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah yeah , it's it's okay . It's working again .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah , it's it's working , it's working .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: It's better than before .
User Interface: We're improving uh {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: You go ahead .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah that's improved uh pretty much .
Industrial Designer: Yeah it's only a bit like to that side , but that is that one by the way .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah but it's better , it's better {disfmarker}
User Interface: No it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: 'Cause this one makes the angle either like this . So i if I change this , it will go there , if I change that , will go there .
Marketing: Mm . No . It's better than it was I guess .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . I will take this away 'cause it looks messy .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Silly . Yeah . Works pretty well . Five minutes before the meeting's over .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: And then ?
Project Manager: Then I have to uh uh write this ,
Marketing: We have to present {disfmarker}
Project Manager: and I don't know if you have to present , because I didn't receive any information about that so far .
Marketing: Alright .
Industrial Designer: Maybe we will .
Project Manager: Maybe we get a a final mail .
Marketing: So it {disfmarker} after the {disfmarker} after after these five minutes , you have to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah , I have still ten minutes to finish the report .
Industrial Designer: What's this anyway ?
User Interface: So cake . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Alright . After after that five minutes , you have ten minutes to finish it , or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It looks like candle wax .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Alright . And we uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And you can uh just uh relax and uh have cup of coffee or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Right . Chill . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: oh no , they don't have beer here so you can't celebrate .
Marketing: Huh .
Project Manager: You can just if you ma finish my presentation please . Uh over there .
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} Yeah ?
Project Manager: The presentation is still open . So if you finish that then you'll see uh {disfmarker} Yeah next .
Marketing: Next slide .
Project Manager: Oh yeah , we have to do the project uh evaluation . Just uh do that quickly .
Marketing: Yeah ?
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: How do you do it ?
Project Manager: Uh well basically what that says , we discuss it and um {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Alright .
Project Manager: So how were {disfmarker} did the project process uh go ? Did you , were you all pleased with the process as it was ? Or are there uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh th uh do you mean the the interaction between us ? Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah the interaction and the steps we followed , and and so forth .
Industrial Designer: Yeah well at first I was really stressed . Because it went a bit fast .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But then as I knew the tempo that I had to be on , the second time I think I did a bit better .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And the third time yeah , I mean {disfmarker}
Marketing: And we move more to to working together as team ,
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: because at first you you make your individual contribution , and then come here , and you have no idea what the others have to make .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} .
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah yeah yeah .
Marketing: And then finally you have some idea , okay this is gonna w this is what we gonna make together and okay I will arrange this and you will arrange that ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and you have a k a kind of idea what you can expect on the next half hour when you have to work on your own . So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah we {disfmarker}
Marketing: The process , I mean , the interaction between us became better and better I guess .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah . Especially after the first meeting .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: And {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , especially if f f if you see {disfmarker} uh you se you saw the largest difference from the first to the second meeting I guess .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Definitely .
Project Manager: Okay and was that due to my leadership ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah yeah yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well you did become more assertive the the second time round , so that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . You were more in charge kind of thing .
Project Manager: That okay ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . Um was there uh enough room for creativity ?
Industrial Designer: I guess so .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah but only the the financial parts uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I mean {disfmarker}
Marketing: Li Limiteded afterwards ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: but {disfmarker} If if you don't take that into account , there's plenty of room for creativ creativity .
Industrial Designer: I
Marketing: Also not only the drawing and the the making of the thing itself , but also in explaining it to the other people , by means of uh
Industrial Designer: We were pretty democratic .
Marketing: the the board and uh PowerPoint and Word and stuff like that .
Project Manager: So and the {disfmarker} uh about the board {gap} digital pen ? Uh was that helpful or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Ooh .
Marketing: Mm uh I think in in essence
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: the digital pen is better than the SMARTboard . Because it it it just works better .
Project Manager: Yeah it works . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I mean uh uh I've made {disfmarker} yeah , uh I've made several notes just to test it , and and just put the pen in into it , and then it came onto my screen and it looked perfectly .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: So it it's better a better device than uh
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Maybe {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: than the screen . But the screen is useful , in essence , but it doesn't work that well . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's uh it's {disfmarker} The the pen is more intuitive , 'cause we're all used to writing with pen .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Use the pen .
Industrial Designer: And uh as I said , uh I uh have no idea how PowerPoint works , so will take me half a day to be able to make a normal PowerPoint presentation .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But once I get to know the program probably , I mean , it looks better , you know . Or uh something like that . You can give it a kind of a home style , like we have i the the logo and everything .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah .
Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker} I don't know .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: Blink . Oh . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Warning . Finish meeting now .
User Interface: Finish meeting .
Project Manager: Okay , are are there {vocalsound} any new ideas about this ? All I think {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well , it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I didn't really receive , yeah .
Marketing: It's use especially useful , I guess , to to evaluate designs and graph graphical stuff .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh uh w uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: And and
Project Manager: S sorry uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: the {gap} screen and stuff like that .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I think the PowerPoint is is too limited . You can't uh draw easy in in PowerPoint . It has to be uh {disfmarker} yeah . The drawing board has to be integrated into PowerPoint , so that you can just easily {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah the the the problem with PowerPoint for me is that you have to i put in the pre-made chunks c as well .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: You know , you can draw something on the sketch-board and then take it there , or whatever .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah . But it it's useful to to show something to to an {disfmarker} a small audience , and then to {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah just for text , for text it's uh it's okay . But {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . These these kind of screens this size are useful to discuss things . So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yes . Check your email .
Project Manager: Uh we should uh enter our questionnaire . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} You also . {vocalsound}
User Interface: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Ah . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Woah .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Okay . Uh okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: Yes boss .
Industrial Designer: Well , s see you in a second huh ? {gap} .
Project Manager: That's the management . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well see you soon .
User Interface: Oh .
Project Manager: Hope so .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound} we have to pull it this way , huh ? Wait . | |
doc_192 | Project Manager: Okay . Oh , that's not gonna work . {vocalsound} Oh , alright . {vocalsound} Okay . Okay . Um alright .
Marketing: Uh , uh , um .
Project Manager: I'll just put that there . Uh as you all know we're here to create a brand new fantastic remote . Uh I'm Nick Debusk , I'm the Project Manager . Uh we'll just get started with everyone kind of letting each other know who they are and what you're doing , what your what your role is um . Go ahead .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound} I am Corinne Whiting and I will be the Marketing Expert and in each of the three phases I will have a different role . In the function design phase I will be talking about user requirement specification , and this means what needs and desires are to be fulfilled , and I'll be doing research to figure this out . In the conceptual design phase I will be dealing with trend watching and I'll be doing marketing research on the web . And then finally in the um detailed design phase I will be doing product evaluation and so I will be collecting the requirements and ranking all the requirements to see how we did .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: Hiya , I'm Ryan . Um I'm the User Interface Designer . Um likewise I've three different roles for each stage of design . Um the functional design is looking at the tex technical functions of a remote control . Um in the concept design , the user interface , how the user reacts with the the product . And the detailed design um {vocalsound} sort of like the user interface design , what they might be looking for , uh things like fashions , what makes wha how we're gonna make it special . That's about it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right . {vocalsound} I'm Manuel and I'm the Industrial Designer in in this project um . In the functional design phase I'm {disfmarker} I'll be dealing mostly with the requirements , um we'll discuss what the prog what functions the the product has to fulfil and so and so on . Um I suppose we'll work pretty much together on that one . Um um in the conceptual design um I'll be pro mostly dealing with properties and materials um of our product .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And uh the detailed design {disfmarker} in the detailed design I'll be concerned with the look and feel of the product itself , um so we're pretty much working together obviously on the design front here . Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . Um so we've got our opening , our our agenda is the opening , uh acquaintance which we've kinda done . Uh tool training , project plan discussion and then closing .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh grand total of twenty five minutes we have here . Um so we are putting together a new remote control . Um we want it to be something original . Um of course we're a {disfmarker} not only a electronics company but a fashion um conscious electronics company , so we want it to be trendy um and we want it to be easy to use . {vocalsound} Um we've got the functional design , conceptual design and detailed design um which basically is is the three of you um . And w uh {vocalsound} well um functional design um . Um do we have {disfmarker} um any ideas of of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} maybe d let's just throw out some ideas of what kind of remote control we want to have , and then we can go into how we're gonna design it and and how we're gonna do the detailing on it .
User Interface: Yeah . Well uh s function of remote control is just just {disfmarker} you know , change channels is its main function .
Project Manager: So we want it to be um a T_V_ remote or {disfmarker} I I mean do we want it to to do other things besides just be a a television remote ?
User Interface: Oh right . I suppose you c try make it a universal remote
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: for {disfmarker} could work on all sort of electrical products in in one person's house . But , you know , they all sorta have the same role changing channels , volumes and then programming .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: I think they all work on the same prin principle as well sorta like {disfmarker} I don't actually know . {gap} But is it just infra-red ? Is that standard ?
Project Manager: I I think {disfmarker} yeah , yeah , r universal remote .
User Interface: Ye yeah .
Project Manager: Um this is my first uh go-round with creating a remote control ,
Marketing: Huh . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: so {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Ours too . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think we're all in the same boat here . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Um one thing I thought of with the remote control is you always lose 'em .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: So if there's a g a way of finding it quite easily , I thought that'd be quite good quite a good feature .
Marketing: Mm . Ch
Project Manager: So we should we should set our remote control up to where it has a uh
Marketing: Like a tracking device ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: like a tracking device or or like a a {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh you can get those key {disfmarker} well you could whistle or make a noise
Project Manager: It makes a noise ,
User Interface: and it'd beep .
Project Manager: there's a button on the T_V_ that you press
Industrial Designer: Mm , mm .
Project Manager: and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Marketing: Be good .
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Generally , all remotes are sort of quite similar in their appearance .
Project Manager: Yeah . Do we want {disfmarker}
User Interface: Just long .
Project Manager: so they're kinda like long and rectangular .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Do we want something crazy ?
User Interface: Black usually .
Project Manager: You know , we want something new that's gonna stand out .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Lot more modern .
Project Manager: A m a modern {disfmarker} so our remote should be {disfmarker}
User Interface: I think so . Maybe sorta spherical or something . A ball .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Maybe like user-friendly , like a little
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: you know , where you can use both hands , like a little keyboard type thing .
User Interface: People {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: I thought maybe , because people always tend to throw a remote control about the place to one another {disfmarker} if it was in a ball ,
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: and maybe the actual controls are inside or something .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Um .
Industrial Designer: Well there are of course certain restrictions , you can't have it be any form and fulfil all functions at the same time ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so there are always the {disfmarker} some restrictions we have to apply here . Um however um one question is how stable is that thing supposed to be , that refers to the material , pretty much um . What are we gonna build that thing out of ?
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: How sturdy is it gonna be ? Do we want it to last longer or rather have people whatever , have to buy one every half a year ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay so {disfmarker} yeah , so we want it to be sturdy ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: we want it to to hold up to somebody's child , you know , throwing it across the room or , as you said , people kinda throw it , so ball-shaped , uh you know , if it were ball-shaped maybe ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: then it {disfmarker}
User Interface: It could be cased on the outside and t everything could be inside .
Project Manager: 'Kay . Um so we want it to be modern , fun , sturdy , um {disfmarker} So our form and our function . Um we want it to be um easy to find . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} What else {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} what else do we want it to to do ? So we want it to be universal . It's something that we're supposed to sell for about twenty five Euros um and you know , goals for profits are I think somewhere around uh fifty million Euros , what they wanna make on it , so .
Marketing: Mm . Also since we're partners of the International Remote Control Association , maybe we wanna make it something that would globally appeal .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Marketing: That's more on the research end , but {disfmarker} the marketing .
Project Manager: So marketing , you know , how {disfmarker} maybe uh marketing , you could s find out what is the most universally um appealing {vocalsound} remote control out there .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And maybe as far as design goes , maybe we could have different ones for different target audiences ,
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Marketing: 'cause maybe one won't apply to all of the countries we're targeting .
User Interface: Ye Small .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Do you guys have any ideas for what it should look like ? Maybe we could draw it up on the on the board over there . Some ideas ? We want it to be a b a ball ,
User Interface: {gap} I'd {disfmarker} I could draw sorta the ball idea .
Project Manager: you know , we'll draw up we'll draw up the ball and maybe th um where the buttons are located .
User Interface: My original idea was just simply sort of a sphere , where maybe you {disfmarker} this is where it's connected together , and then when you open it out , it could fol it could be maybe flip , like a flip phone , and then when you fold it out the middle {disfmarker} Maybe a hinge that'll have to be the strongest part of it . If that {disfmarker} if we did use a hinge , or if it was just two parts ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and then you'd have just sorta you you you know , your buttons . Thing is inside I think , sometimes remotes have too many buttons , so maybe as simple as possible , um as few buttons inside as possible . Um , I dunno , what's the idea for . Just something {disfmarker} maybe if you ha if it had like if some kind of like light or something or lights around it . It's looking a bit like something out of Star Wars at the moment though , to be fair .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} But yeah .
Marketing: Futuristic . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: That was that was a sorta simple idea I had
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
User Interface: and then you know you could {gap} about {disfmarker} Right , it would almost be like a ball . So that was just just an idea I had . I don't know whether anybody else has other ideas ?
Industrial Designer: Right . One problem you'd get with this design is um {disfmarker} the ball is a nice idea because of it's stability really ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but of course , since it's a ball , it'll roll , so we'd have to have it flat on one side at least , down here somewhere ,
User Interface: Yeah . Maybe f yeah .
Industrial Designer: take away that part . That's one of the big issues . Also also you risk the hinges here . That's that's um a problem .
User Interface: Yeah , that's g that's a good idea . Yeah . The idea {disfmarker} it didn't have to necessarily be f a hinge ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's that's {vocalsound} interesting of course ,
User Interface: that was just one idea though .
Industrial Designer: but that's of course a weak point , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: How would we go about um making you know {disfmarker} getting rid of our weak points ? What {disfmarker} I mean would we just have a flat spot on the bottom of the ball ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Not to put you on the spot ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} E No no ,
Project Manager: but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: uh uh {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: What did you say your title was again ?
Industrial Designer: N n
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You're the the Industrial Designer .
Industrial Designer: Uh , I'm your Industrial Designer ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: so i b well ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: the point is that {vocalsound} well maybe {disfmarker} I dunno . The shape is perhaps not the most ideal .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: As as stable as it is , there must be a compromise between um stability and design here , so .
User Interface: Well I I suppose that things become {gap} design . But I mean i
Marketing: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: I was trying to think of like the design of others . I can't think of anything other than a long rectangle for remote ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: maybe small , sort of fatter ones , but there's nothing being done sort of out of left field , yeah .
Project Manager: It's not new , it's not innovative , it's {disfmarker} you know , everybody does long remote because it's easy ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: it's it's stable um .
Marketing: 'Kay , I'll draw something . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So if {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: What ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: no , go ahead .
Marketing: My idea was just to have it be kind of like a keyboard type shape , you know , like video games
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: l so . But maybe {disfmarker} I mean that would be kinda big and bulky . We could also try to do the hinge thing , so it could like flip out that way . I don't know . {vocalsound} That's my idea .
User Interface: I think definitely doing something different
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: is a good idea .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: I mean maybe design something , that's sort of like {vocalsound} suppose not everybody's everybody's hand's the same , but something that would maybe fit in the hand easier .
Project Manager: Something with a grip .
Marketing: Mm . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , with a grip .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Because even {disfmarker} I suppose even with the ball
User Interface: It still might be hard to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: it's {disfmarker}
User Interface: it still not the ho easiest thing to hold , yeah .
Project Manager: it might not be the easiest to hold onto um .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: So perhaps the the joystick {disfmarker} the the keyboard idea might work better .
User Interface: Like {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: But then again , people like to use one hand to flip and one hand to hold their soda , so maybe maybe we {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} True .
User Interface: It's d yeah . I think it's definitely got to be a a one-handed a one-handed job .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: I feel like I'm just shooting everything down here .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} That's fine .
Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} um {disfmarker}
Marketing: You're the boss , you're {vocalsound} allowed to .
Industrial Designer: Well with the one-handed design you also have the the problem of the size w 'cause you know from cell phones , they can be too small . So if the remote is too small it {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: if it's small it probably looks better , but may not be th as functional . So for that there's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay , so
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: unfortunately we've got about five minutes here {vocalsound} to come up with our um remote control idea and start rolling with it . Um we've talked about our experiences with remote control and um we've got a couple ideas um . Let's see here . What if we had what if we had not only um {disfmarker} say we went with the ball the ball function um , but maybe we give it sort of grips along the side s um to make it easier to hold on to . So you know um s so it's easier to hold onto that way .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Course that'll then remove some of our our ball . Unless this unless this part were raised , so say the cover flips over and covers that part . So the grip is {disfmarker} No , that wouldn't work either um . But if we're gonna make it flat on the bottom , then that eliminates our ball anyways . So if it were flat on the bottom and then had the sorta grips on the side here I guess , um and then {vocalsound} flat uh {disfmarker} And then we have the problem with the hinge . So if we're flat on the bottom , it's not gonna roll away , it'll stay where we want .
Industrial Designer: The question is also , I dunno , d do you really always want to open that thing when you have to use it ?
Project Manager: Mm , that's true .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It's probably going to lie around opened all the time anyway , so I don't know if a lid is a good idea . From stabil stability point of view uh it certainly is , but also you have to face it and take into account the more of these things break by accident , uh the more we sell . So it's {disfmarker} don't make it too stable {vocalsound} uh .
Project Manager: So we don't have it flip open . We just have a ball {disfmarker}
User Interface: But then maybe to go back to the to th s something along those things then .
Industrial Designer: To the other design .
Project Manager: Okay , so then we forget the ball .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It looks cool . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Looks cool though .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It looks cool , but it's really not {disfmarker} it's not functional um .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh {vocalsound} functional .
Project Manager: So we've got our sort of keyboard kind . What if we flipped it around here , so that it were um {disfmarker} Sorry , that doesn't look anything like what you {vocalsound} had there . Um so it's up and down , you hold it this way .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Course then it's it's like the rectangular {vocalsound} again , only with a couple of jutting out points . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right . Right .
Project Manager: But it's one-handed um .
Industrial Designer: Question is what makes those game pads functional ? W I think that's pretty much the form for full hand . So it's a round shape underneath that makes it comfy ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: right ,
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: makes it nice , so that's the essential part . Except for that I think we'll not {disfmarker} probably not get a get away from some longer design .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: 'Cause you also have to know which way around to point this thing .
Project Manager: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: You know , all
Project Manager: because it doesn't have a cord , like joysticks do .
Industrial Designer: that dif batteries {disfmarker} right , and {disfmarker} Batteries go weak as well , so um after a while you have to point it towards the uh towards the equipment you wanna control with it , right ? So , have to m show which is the front , which is the back .
Project Manager: Is it possible to have it to where it would work with a like a sensor on either side ? So that either way you're pointing it it would work .
Industrial Designer: I suppose you could do that . O of course the more technology you stick in that , the more it'll cost , so .
Project Manager: More expensive and {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: Course you can do that .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} 'Kay . Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I mean of course it'll be evident after a while or {disfmarker} if you look at it , it'll it'll be evident which way around to point it , since you have the the numbers and the and the {vocalsound} the buttons and stuff ,
Project Manager: True .
Industrial Designer: but um it's rather about an instinctual thing ,
User Interface: Put it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: like you just grab it , you don't have to s look at it , you know , which way around to point it . Otherwise the design of {disfmarker} or the the point of putting two sensors on both sides um would probably work .
User Interface: Even if you designed it {disfmarker} in some {disfmarker} in a way that you know , isn't a rectangle , but still pointed in a direction that had definite points . So if that's your thing and you got something like that instead ,
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: and there's your s you kn you know which way you're gonna pointing it .
Project Manager: 'Kay .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Sorry to interrupt , but we have a warning to finish .
Project Manager: Are we out of time ?
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , well , just to finish up , should we s go with this plan , start making some {disfmarker} Are good ideas , what are not .
Industrial Designer: Let's .
User Interface: Does it say {disfmarker} what does it say for n
Industrial Designer: Obviously {disfmarker}
User Interface: it says on there what we need to do for the next meeting , I think .
Project Manager: Uh . Must finish now , so .
User Interface: T
Project Manager: And then marketing will look and see what uh what people want .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: Great .
Project Manager: Okay . And Project Manager will design a better meeting for next {vocalsound} time around , be a little bit more prepared .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And uh alright , good meeting .
Marketing: {vocalsound} | |
doc_193 | Gareth Rogers: Good morning, and welcome to today's meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Unfortunately, the Chair is unable to attend today, so in accordance with Standing Order 17.22 I call for nominations for a temporary Chair for the duration of today's meeting.
Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths.
Gareth Rogers: Thank you.
Darren Millar AM: I'll second that nomination.
Gareth Rogers: As there's only one nomination, I declare that John Griffiths has been appointed as temporary Chair. Thank you, John.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Thank you all very much, and item 1 on our agenda today is introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. We've received apologies from Hefin David and Lynne Neagle. There are no substitutions. Are there any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then to item 2, and our inquiry into the impact of Brexit on higher and further education, and our first evidence session. I'm very pleased to welcome the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales here today, and Dr David Blaney as chief executive, and Bethan Owen, director of institutional engagement. Welcome to you both. Thanks for coming along to give evidence today. If it's okay with you, we'll move straight to questions, and Julie Morgan.
Julie Morgan AM: Good morning. Bore da. I wondered if we could start off with you telling us what evidence you can see that the Brexit process has had any impact on Welsh higher education so far.
Dr David Blaney: Can I preface the response by just reminding you that we are, by contract and by role, apolitical, and a lot of the judgments about the impact of Brexit essentially reflect where people sit politically in terms of whether they think it's a good thing or a bad thing? We're not going to go there, obviously, today, so we'll stick to the facts as we can see them, and hopefully we'll be able to help you, but there are areas where we are unable to help. That's part of the reason.
John Griffiths AM: We certainly do not expect you to enter the political fray in any way.
Dr David Blaney: Thank you. But even in terms of your assessment of whether this is going to be a good thing or a bad thing, a good impact or a bad impact, some of that inevitably in the end becomes a matter of your politics on it, so we will be as careful as we can be on that. In terms of the impact of Brexit on higher education, clearly, the significance here is about the contribution that higher education can make to Wales. So, we fund provision; we don't fund providers, technically, although obviously there's not much provision without providers. So, we are interested in the sustainability of higher education providers, but fundamentally the issue is: what does the HE system in Wales do for Wales, and what impact might Brexit have on the capacity of the system to continue to deliver for Wales? So, we know that universities make annually about £5 billion of impact; 50,000 jobs. Of course, in Wales, all of that economic impact is really very significant, and uncertainty about the relationships and the arrangements with Europe is one of the most significant issues confronting university management at the moment. That has an impact in a number of ways. We can identify at the moment the extent to which the HE sector in Wales is exposed to sources of income that are located from the EU, so EU students, structural funds, and EU research funding, and so on, from the EU. We can identify some of that, but, actually, what happens in the future is much harder to be clear about. We are beginning to see some impact in terms of applications from EU students and I'll ask Bethan to share some details on that in a moment. We're also beginning to pick up, only anecdotally, some signs that there are increasing difficulties in the UK sector, and the Welsh sector as part of that, in playing in some of the EU collaborative research activities. And that, I think, just reflects the extent to which EU partners consider that British partners might be a stable partner as we go through this transition period. We don't have data on that—that's anecdotal—but there are signs that some of those relationships are beginning to become a little bit more difficult. In terms of the financial impact of that, clearly, if it is accepted that the UK is a net contributor to the EU then, presumably, some of the money—we're almost immediately straight into politics if you're not careful—but some of the money will be available back to the UK, and the extent to which Wales benefits or not from that returned money is a function of the political relationship between the Welsh Government and Her Majesty's Government. It's not necessarily the case that Wales will always lose out in that relationship, but that will become a matter of politics. There's a broader dimension, which is about the economic impact of Brexit on the UK economy and how much tax revenue there is and all of that. I think it's very hard for us to be definitive about how that's going to play out. I think that depends on the deal and how it all unfolds over the next several years. But we can certainly anticipate some turbulence and exactly how that plays for institutions remains to be seen. We can touch later on on the extent to which they are sighted on this and preparing for it. So, in terms of recruitment, Bethan.
Bethan Owen: This is based on the UCAS applications and the report that was published at the end of June, 30 June. The European Union-domiciled applicants to Wales have decreased by 8 per cent, which contrasts with a 2 per cent increase for English institutions, and non-EU—so international students, not from Europe—have also decreased by 9 per cent to Welsh institutions, again contrasting with a 7 per cent increase in England. So, those are the signs of changes.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I then just ask you what you see as the main pressures on the Welsh higher education sector at the moment?
Bethan Owen: The funding position would be the main pressure. The recommendations made by Sir Ian Diamond in his review of higher education funding and student finance are in the process of being implemented, and the changes to the student finance arrangements will take effect from this September. However, the recommendations for re-establishing funding at Welsh institutions are expected to take quite a bit longer. That funding, when it returns to institutions, is intended to re-establish funding for higher cost provision, both full time and part time; reinstate funding for innovation; and maintain, at the very least, the research funding in real terms. Universities, in the meantime, are trying to minimise the cost reductions that they're making in order to maintain the infrastructure, so that when the funding comes they can get the best value out of it. We have announced our funding allocations for 2018-19. For the research and teaching grant, though, we are still funding at a lower level—£12.5 million less—then the starting point for the Diamond report, the 2015-16 starting report. But we expect to be able to start introducing funding from 2019-20 to make a start on implementing Diamond. And it's probably important to note that the Diamond recommendations predated Brexit, therefore the challenges introduced by Brexit are in addition to those that the Diamond report was addressing. The other pressures relate to student recruitment. I mentioned the EU and international students. There is also the start of a reduction, both in Welsh-domiciled and English-domiciled applications to Wales. Enrolments are obviously the key important number, which we'll see later. And the other pressures include pay and pension costs, not least the issues around the universities superannuation scheme pension fund, where there's potentially a significant increase in cost. Increased student expectations for modern facilities and infrastructure bring a requirement for capital expenditure and borrowing, which bring their own pressures. And finally, the uncertainty about potential consequences that could arise from the review in England of fees and funding—the Augar review.
John Griffiths AM: In terms of European Union students and enrolment, is Wales forecast to do less well than England and, if so, why might that be?
Bethan Owen: They are not forecasting it. It's very difficult until the enrolments are made, and it's also very hard to see—the data that we see is the UCAS data. Institutions also recruit directly, so until we see the actual recruitment—. I think the arrangements that have changed from 2018-19 also impact on EU students. So, now, they have to find the full fee, whereas previously they were getting the grant in the same way as Welsh students. So, I'm speculating that that might be having an impact as well on EU students' appetite to come.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. First of all Llyr, then Mark.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, that's straight into what I was going to ask, really, about what you think the factors are that led to this 8 per cent or 9 per cent drop in EU students applying to study in Wales, where we see a 2 per cent increase in England. Is that it, or are there other things that you've taken into account? What's your assessment of the reasons behind this?
Dr David Blaney: It's very difficult to be definitive about the reasons, but I think there are probably two. The one that Bethan has already indicated, which is the change in student support arrangements for EU students, will have an effect of perturbation. That's probably relatively temporary—let's hope it is—as that settles down because, actually, the deal for EU students coming into Wales is no worse than that coming into England. Ours would be better because the fee level is slightly lower, but we do struggle in Wales in terms of the Anglocentric nature of the media and so on. So, getting the messages out is a challenge. The other dimension is that when you're in a highly competitive recruitment market, you have to do what you can to look attractive. Part of that is about being able to invest in facilities, and particularly buildings and kit, and the relative levels of investment between Wales and England over quite a long period of time now probably have an impact on that. Certainly, anecdotally I know, from my own family, that a lot of the choices have been made in terms of the state of repair of campuses and so on. There's something rational about that, isn't there? If you've got a system that is relatively better invested, then you're likely to have a better student experience because the resources are likely to be better. So, that's not irrational. We saw a sort of similar but opposite effect when the £9,000 fee maximum limit came in, and some institutions, mostly in England—there was one in Wales—chose to pitch their fee levels really quite low, relative to that £9,000, and caught a cold in the student recruitment market because fee levels denote quality in the student mind. So, the price sensitivities work quite differently. So, again, if you've got a relatively better invested part of the system, then that might well be one of the reasons why it looks more attractive.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: That latter factor would affect the whole of the cohort, not just the international recruitment, of course.
Dr David Blaney: Indeed. Yes, indeed. The implementation of the Diamond recommendations is crucial to that because that's re-balancing where the policy of investment goes.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. And Mark.
Mark Reckless AM: If I heard you correctly earlier, you said that the applications from non-EU students were also down by 8 per cent or 9 per cent. So, forgive me a certain scepticism about the explanation of the fall in the EU students being that they did get the fee grant and now they do not. If that's the explanation, why are we seeing the same fall in non-EU applications?
Dr David Blaney: Well, I think the Welsh domiciled are also now having to face the prospect of finding a loan for the whole of the fee. So, that would potentially account for that. There's also a demographic dimension here with the downturn in the 18-year-old school-leaver profile, and that actually is happening in Wales at a slightly later point than in England.
Mark Reckless AM: But this is non-EU students, and I think you said, Bethan, an 8 per cent or 9 per cent fall in them as well.
Dr David Blaney: International non-EU. I beg your pardon. I misunderstood.
Bethan Owen: There's also a mix effect. I gave a number that was for all English institutions that there will be differential impacts on.
Mark Reckless AM: All English or all Welsh?
Bethan Owen: Well, I contrasted the Welsh position with the English position where they were seeing growth. If you look, then—and we don't have the detailed information, but, again, what UCAS publish is some analysis by tariff. They analyse by type of institution—in other words, the grades that you need to get into institutions—and there is a trend for growth being in the higher tariff institutions. So, there's a mix effect in there as well, and I think there's undoubtedly an element of perception of how welcome overseas and international students are, and that's something that we know the sector are working on with Government.
Mark Reckless AM: Why would that affect Wales more than England? Do you think there's been perhaps too great a negativity about Brexit in the sector?
Bethan Owen: I think it's the mix of institutions that we have. So, we only have sector information published at the moment. When we look at the mix of institutions that we have, we will probably see a differential impact between Cardiff University and others.
John Griffiths AM: Okay, Mark? Sorry, David, did you want to add anything?
Dr David Blaney: I was just going to say that we would expect to see quite differential performance in the English sector, so the overall numbers are being brought up by substantial increased performance with some of that sector, and it's a question of how many of that type of institution you have in Wales.
Mark Reckless AM: So, performance is increasing amongst the English universities, but not amongst the Welsh, you think.
Dr David Blaney: I think performance is increasing, but increasing substantially with some of the English sector, not all of it. So, you get an average for the sector that is increased performance, but actually the stronger players within that sector, with the stronger international profiles, are bringing that up, and we have fewer in Wales that have that sort of presence.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Darren.
Darren Millar AM: Would it be fair to say, then, that the universities over the border in England are better at selling themselves internationally than our Welsh institutions? Or is it just this fact that we've got fewer very high tariff universities versus the English market?
Dr David Blaney: I suspect, and this is speculation—I suspect that it's a bit of both. I think some of it is to do with the mix of different types of institution. I would then come back to the point I was making about the Anglocentric nature of the UK media. If you're looking overseas, I think Wales has to work harder to penetrate the consciousness.
Darren Millar AM: But, forgive me, don't international students just look at the UK as a whole? How are we comparing to Scotland, for example, or Northern Ireland, in terms of their universities? Do you have a comparative figure for Scottish universities?
Bethan Owen: I haven't got that one with me for now, but there will be one in the data.
Dr David Blaney: Yes, we could get that.
Bethan Owen: Again, it's a combination of being part of the UK but differentiating, and the ability to differentiate the strengths of Wales, so attracting those students to Wales specifically, on top of the UK draw.
Dr David Blaney: So, in terms of the efforts that have been made, there's a programme now that is being run by the sector in Wales—it's 'Study in Wales'. It's relatively recent; you could argue that we could have got there earlier. But that is a determined collective effort to present Wales as a good place to study, with particular messages about what distinguishes studying in Wales from studying more broadly in the UK. In a sense, that is responding to the need to increase the presence of Wales in an international market. So, that sort of initiative I think is very good, very welcome. It will take a while to actually have an impact, but I think that's exactly the sort of work the sector need to be doing more of.
Mark Reckless AM: What are those messages on why prospective students should study in Wales?
Dr David Blaney: One of them in particular is relative safety. We know that one of the considerations, particularly for parents of overseas students, is are they going to go to a safe environment, and we know that the perception of international students who study in Wales is that this is a comfortable and safe place to be. That's partly a function of the size of our larger cities—quite a lot smaller than many of the cities in England. So, that's a key message. Being part of a UK system is also an important message there as well. So, we've got a UK-quality system, a UK degree, and the strength of that brand is available in Wales, but it's available in a way that is safer and more supportive, I think is the messaging that's coming through.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. We'd better move on, I think, hadn't we? Darren, then.
Darren Millar AM: I just wonder to what extent you have been able to plan in your financial forecasts for the next few years ahead for the potential impacts of Brexit. What have you built in, if anything?
Bethan Owen: In terms of our funding, we receive our funding annually, but the sector provides us with financial forecasts, and we use those for monitoring sustainability. So, the last full forecasts that we had were in July 2017. We are due to receive a full forecast at the end of this month, and we obviously have updated information from institutions.
Darren Millar AM: And they're three-year forecasts that come through to you, aren't they?
Bethan Owen: They are four plus the current year. So, we've got numbers to 2019-20 at the moment, and expect to go to 2020-21.
Darren Millar AM: And what are the universities expecting? What do they anticipate?
Bethan Owen: Well, for 2017-18, which is the year we're about to end now, they were expecting £38 million income from European students, and approximately £91 million from the various European programme funding sources, and that's about 8 per cent of the total income—£1.5 billion—of the sector. The forecasts are assuming that that continues, albeit that institutions have various scenarios that they have for all sorts of scenarios that we can all speculate on, and, as I mentioned earlier, the balancing act of maintaining infrastructure and resources and staff in the short term is where we are at the moment, or where the sector is at the moment. And there are also signs that the banks and lending institutions are becoming a bit more risk-averse in providing borrowing to institutions, and of more differentiation between individual institutions being made than has possibly been the case in the past. The sector made an operating deficit, again looking at all Welsh institutions collectively last year, 2016-17, of £17 million. That's before other gains and losses. And we're expecting a similar collective level of deficit for this financial year, if not slightly higher. Now, these are managed deficits and we are not currently seeing critical short-term cash availability issues in the sector. However, the increase in funding from Diamond is a key part of enabling the sector to return to longer-term financial sustainability. Short-term challenges can be met if there's a reasonable prospect of future funding. You can manage in the short-term, but there comes a point when the big cost reductions and infrastructure reductions have to be made. And, again, having mentioned the pressures on pay, pensions and other challenges, it is difficult to gauge whether, if those factors come into play as well, some of these cost reductions may have to be made before funding comes in to replace—either Diamond funding or the European replacement funding.
Darren Millar AM: So, would it be fair to say that, in terms of the funding arrangements, and, in terms of the student numbers, one reason why we've got this recruitment problem is this lack of investment in the capital infrastructure that we've seen in recent years because of the financing arrangements from the Welsh Government, and the fee regime that we had previously, and the student finance regime that we had previously, not getting more cash into our Welsh universities perhaps, and that, over the next few years, there's going to have to be much more significant investment in capital if we're to raise the game and be more competitive, yes?
Bethan Owen: Yes, that would be fair to say.
Darren Millar AM: So, to what extent are they planning for more capital investment in those financial strategies that they've been preparing and presenting to you?
Bethan Owen: They are all planning for capital investment. They are in different positions in terms of capacity to borrow and the assumptions. This year, 2018-19, is the first time that we've had capital funding in our remit letter—so, we've got £10 million of capital funding, which is very welcome, with a prospect of a further £20 million. So, that we will be allocating shortly. That will make a difference, particularly to those institutions who are not finding it as easy to borrow from financial institutions. Some of our larger institutions have borrowed—Cardiff University issued a bond. However, there are internal governance processes that are putting tight restrictions and expectations of what that money will be invested in. But they all have plans to do it and they need the confidence that their forecasts and long-term future funding prospects are secure enough that they can get the confidence of borrowers then, and service the costs of those borrowers.
Darren Millar AM: So, the Diamond dividend you've mentioned a few times. What clarity is there from the Welsh Government at the moment in terms of how much they anticipate the Diamond dividend will be, and what proportion of that is going to be released to HEIs in the future?
Bethan Owen: I was very carefully not describing it as a dividend—a re-establishing of funding that we had in the past for higher cost and innovation and maintaining research funding. The timescales are difficult, because we have an annual remit letter, and we can work with Welsh Government officials, and they can only give us a sense of when they think the funding will be released. But 2018-19 is the start of the system, and because of cohort protection—so, protecting those students who came in on a different deal to the deal from 2018-19—in the early years there is an element of double cost; there's a cost of seeing out the old system and the different cost of implementing the new system. So, at the moment, we're certainly not in a position to tell the sector with any degree of certainty what funding would be beyond what we've allocated for 2018-19, with some sense of what 2019-20 numbers we're working with because we allocate our money over an academic year—so, by definition, we've already made assumptions of four months of the 2019-20 funding, albeit that's not approved yet in the budgetary process.
Darren Millar AM: But you're not being given a steer at all as to what you expect the additional resource that you might have to make available to Welsh universities might be as a result of Diamond. You must have some idea.
Dr David Blaney: I think it's fair to say that officials have been as helpful as they can be with us, in terms of the planning assumptions we make and indications about whether or not we are being too ambitious or not ambitious enough. So, I think they're being very helpful; as Bethan said, they're constrained by the process—they can't pre-empt a budget process. And you folks will be fully aware of that, of course. The other question I think you asked was how much of the money released by the new arrangements will come into higher education. At the moment, we are expecting all of it to come into higher education, as the product of the arrangement between the current Cabinet Secretary and the current First Minister. The extent to which any changes there cause that to come under threat is something I can't judge at the moment. But we have had in our remit letter from the Cabinet Secretary a clear indication that we can expect our resource to grow over the next few years, as the Diamond process unfolds.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. I'm just going to bring in Llyr at this stage.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Bethan said in an earlier answer that, I think, the financial forecasting from universities forecast something pretty consistent in terms of what they're hoping to be receiving in income, for example. But we've already discussed the near 10 per cent drop, potentially, in international applications. So, does that tally, really, or are they going to be recruiting additional students from the UK market or—? What's the plan?
Bethan Owen: I was reflecting on the last point when we had consistent information across the sector.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. So, they may need to revisit that in the light of this.
Bethan Owen: I'm expecting that the forecast that we get at the end of this month will reflect the reduced applications we've seen, and an element of that will be reflected in reduced improvements as well.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. So, we don't really know, then, whether—it's unlikely that they are going to expect a consistent fee income, really.
Dr David Blaney: I think it's fair to say we would expect them to respond to what they're seeing in the UCAS process. Even if they didn't, they would all, in any case, have sensitivities for what they would do if things don't come out in the way they hope. And if they didn't have that then we would be on their case, of course, because we want them to be properly sighted.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. Thanks.
John Griffiths AM: And we have to stick to the Brexit impact. Darren.
Darren Millar AM: Can I just ask, in terms of the impact of Brexit, have you done any assessment of what you think might happen, or have any of the institutions made available to you any assessments of what they think is likely to happen to their individual institutions, going forward? You've mentioned scenarios earlier on, David, so what scenarios have you set out?
Dr David Blaney: There's a Welsh Government HE Brexit working group, which is chaired by one of the Government directors, and we sit on that. And we have provided that group with early summaries of the risks and the potential impact, in terms of the exposure of the sector to EU-sourced funding. We have, as part of that working group, explored those issues that it would be really very helpful for either the Welsh Government to try to put in place or for the Welsh Government to persuade UK Government to do. And I think, in our submission, we identified a number of areas of what we would consider to be a helpful action, and that has been worked through that working group. We know that it has informed Welsh Government's position, in terms of what it does and also in terms of the conversations that they have with Her Majesty's Government. Beyond that, what we haven't done in that working group is share the work that institutions are doing individually to look at how they would respond to different scenarios. We are not able to do that here either because, inevitably, they would have varying degrees of unpalatability and they would have to be managed very, very carefully. You take cost out, which is essentially the response, you actually take people's jobs out, and all of that has to be managed carefully. So, that's not really a matter for public consideration, but we do know that the institutions are looking at a range of scenarios on what they would do. Bethan mentioned earlier on that the current deficit for the sector is a managed deficit—it's not something that has taken them by surprise. They are responding to what they see as the dip between where Diamond was reporting and where the money starts flowing. Similarly, I think we're comfortable that there is a managed approach to the scenarios that they're testing within institutions. So, they will do what they need to do to sustain themselves. The bigger issue really, in a public policy context, is the potential damage for the sector to be able to deliver for Wales in terms of research and skills development and all the other contributions.
Darren Millar AM: So, you're confident that they're taking a robust approach to planning for various scenarios, going forward, are you, as individual HEIs?
Dr David Blaney: Yes, and as the deal becomes more clear politically, then they will obviously have greater clarity in terms of which of these scenarios they need to work up more fully, but they are sighted on it.
Darren Millar AM: Okay. Can I just ask about fee and access plans, and how Brexit might impact them? To what extent do you think that they could be impacted?
Dr David Blaney: I think there are two dimensions to maybe touch upon there. Fee and access plans are approved annually by us. They are approved in advance of the recruitment cycle for the year that they apply to. So, we're just in the process now of finalising our consideration of fee and access plans for the 2019-20 academic year. So, there's quite a long lead time. We, as part of that process, go through similar—we look at their financial sustainability, which is based on their forecasts—data to the stuff we've just been discussing. And also, of course, the fee plans themselves make assumptions about how many students of different types, from different domains, are going to be recruited. So, clearly, if there is a continuing downward pressure on EU student recruitment, then that will reduce the amount of fee income that's going to come in, unless they can find other students, and that will reduce the amount of investment in the various activities that are identified in the fee plans. In terms of process, we have two things that we can do. If institutions are becoming aware that the basis upon which they've submitted a fee plan is fundamentally different from the reality, then they can come into us for a change to their fee plan. So, we have a change process. If it's not fundamentally different, but there are always differences between what you plan and what happens three years later—. We also monitor after the event and, if there are differences, we would then obviously require institutions to explain those differences. If they've had fewer students and less investment, we would need to understand that. Conversely, if they'd had more students, and potentially more investment, we'd want to know what they'd spent it on, and if they've done different things, we'd want to understand that as well. So, we do challenge through a monitoring process. The only other thing that's perhaps worth saying is that, in the 2019-20 fee and access plans—they're not published yet, so I can't give you the full detail—five universities have made reference to Brexit and the Brexit impact, and things they want to do through their fee and access plan to try and address some of those issues, so they're in there as well.
Darren Millar AM: But we've already said, haven't we, that it may be nothing to do with Brexit, this dip in EU recruitment, because there are other factors like the attractiveness of the estates and the environment that young people might be educated in? But they're making assumptions that it's linked to Brexit, are they?
Dr David Blaney: Not really. I think they're making assumptions that it could be. There are things they want to do to enhance and to protect student mobility, and some of that will be funded through fee plan investment. So, the Brexit conversation between the EU and the UK Government might or might not sustain Erasmus engagement, and if it doesn't, then they need to find other ways of trying to support that sort of thing. So, that's what we're beginning to see in the fee plans. It's them thinking about how else we can do this stuff.
John Griffiths AM: Okay, Darren? Mark.
Mark Reckless AM: You mentioned the fee and access report. What else do you do to assure yourselves that Welsh higher education institutions are effectively planning for Brexit?
Bethan Owen: We've touched on contingency plans, but, in an environment of uncertainty, I think it's difficult for any of us to know what the right scenario is. I think rather than looking at worst-case scenarios, what the sector is also focusing on is the promotion and looking for additional or increased sources of funding. So, we touched on strengthening the Global Wales engagement in order to sell Wales, so more focus on marketing Wales overseas, but also within the UK. The other area where the sector is working at a UK level very hard is making the arguments to UK Government for maintaining access to the successor to Horizon 2020, which is arguably a larger part of the whole funding infrastructure—students is one part, but the whole funding infrastructure for maintaining research capacity. So, working with UK universities to make arguments at UK Government level for maintaining access to those sources of funding is also a part of what the institutions are doing. We mentioned the Welsh Government's HE Brexit group. That group, which is the Welsh Government group, is being advised by members on it, and that's informing Welsh Government officials when they engage with UK Government as well.
Mark Reckless AM: Do universities seek your advice on what the risks and, indeed, opportunities of Brexit may be and what you think they should be doing to plan for them, or is your role more one of monitoring what they do as opposed to advising what they should do?
Bethan Owen: They are autonomous institutions and ultimately their governing bodies are responsible for ensuring their sustainability. It's not a relationship where we would advise and direct, but it is a relationship where we would question the scenarios if we consider from our experience that we would have expected other scenarios to have been tested. It's that nature of conversation, rather than directing.
Mark Reckless AM: I understand you don't direct, of course, but my question was about advising. You're overseeing, or monitoring—or whatever you like to describe the role as—quite a number of institutions, and presumably you therefore have particular expertise within your organisation, and I just wondered whether higher education institutions are doing enough to draw on that.
Bethan Owen: I think we can advise—we can advise based on data and information that we can see. We can advise based on our judgment. The big thing in this whole Brexit scenario is the uncertainty and the extent to which our speculation is better informed than the governing bodies or the sector collectively is probably the issue.
Dr David Blaney: I think that's right. So, there's a relationship with the sector and there's a relationship with individual institutions, and they are different. So, we have engagement collectively with the sector. Bethan meets with the finance directors, and I meet with the vice-chancellors. We actually have the sector and the funding council together on the Welsh Government's group. So, some of these conversations are happening in various ways, where we're all gaining intelligence about what might be a sensible set of planning assumptions. Then, if we see an institution that is manifestly giving signs of not being sighted on some of these risks, either through their forecast or through other assurance activity, we will challenge. We have an annual cycle, with two points in the year where we reassess the overall risks of individual institutions, and that's based on a whole range of hard data but also a range of soft data. Our links into institutions are many and varied. We have lots of conversations and we take all of that in the round and form an assessment about the financial sustainability of the institutions but also the extent to which we think their governance and management arrangements are properly sighted and facing properly the challenges that they face. In some ways, we say it's not about the challenges they face; it's about how they face the challenges. Our alarm bells really ring when we get the sense that, actually, either an executive or a governing body hasn't really noticed. We're not in that place, I'm really pleased to say. I'm not worried about short-term crisis with any of the institutions. There are medium-term real challenges, both because of Brexit and because of other contextual factors, but at the moment the sector is a managed sector, which is good. It's not always like that, but we're in, I think, a good place at the moment. So, our role is definitely to challenge where we don't think they are making sensible assessments, but it's not to say that their assessment is wrong and ours is right; it's just to have a conversation about, 'Why have you done this and what has informed your thinking?' It's slightly more one step back and slightly more subtle, but it is, as you imply, us using the intelligence we gain from all of those conversations when we talk to individual institutions as well.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, thank you. We had evidence last week from some of the higher education institutions, including Cardiff University, and it's very interesting, in relation to Erasmus+ and the mobility funding for students that, I think, only 40 per cent of the mobility funding in Cardiff is paid for by Erasmus+. I note that you've been consulting on national measures for higher education performance and that one possibility is using international mobility as a performance indicator. I was just wondering whether you might go further and expect universities to actually make commitments to funding international mobility from their own fee incomes as part of that.
Bethan Owen: Again, reflecting on the latest fee and access plans, seven of the universities are referring to mobility—either they have targets in them or are explaining what their plans are—so they are including an element of it from their own income and fee and access income. However, Erasmus is such a well-established and long-term plan—if we were looking at a scenario where that infrastructure wasn't available, to implement anything similar to that would be much less efficient and much more costly. And to enable an infrastructure that allowed—. Ideally, you'd want something that all Welsh institutions could take part in, and that takes some investment and some co-ordinating. And, equally, you need to have the arrangements with your overseas and European institutions. I think it's easy to underestimate the accumulation of time that has gone into establishing Erasmus. So, I think replacing it would be a challenge.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: And the point was made clearly last week that the brand is internationally recognised. When you enter into Erasmus+, you know exactly what you're going to get, and all of that. But there have been criticisms as well about degrees of flexibility and this, that and the other, so I'm just wondering whether—and there is presumably going to be some change on that front although I'm hoping we can buy into it, as others have done who aren't in the EU—that emphasis on encouraging institutions to look more proactively at funding their own mobility efforts would be positive.
Dr David Blaney: I think the—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Sorry—especially if it means that they do more of it.
Dr David Blaney: Indeed. I think the Welsh sector is definitely committed to trying to find ways of promoting and resourcing that sort of mobility. There are signs that some of the restrictive elements of the Erasmus programme are going to change anyway, because that's under development and that's positive. There have been positive noises as part of the Brexit negotiations about wanting to carry on being able to access the Erasmus programme. Nothing is agreed until it's all agreed apparently, so we'll have to see on that one. That would be far better, I think, as Bethan indicates, than trying to replace it with a made-in-Wales only, but you could have a made-in-Wales on top. All of these challenges also create opportunities because they stimulate thinking, and so the fact that seven of the eight universities are already now using their fee plans as a vehicle for thinking about this is positive, and I think we can take that on from there.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because that 40/60 split struck me as being the opposite to what I perceived the situation to be. A key part of your role is to work in partnership with students, so I'd just like to ask what work have you done with students, in terms of maybe protecting their interests as the Brexit scenario evolves?
Dr David Blaney: Well, as you say, we do work with students. We were the first of the funding councils in the UK to have a memorandum of understanding with the National Union of Students in Wales. We work very closely with them and the president of NUS is an observer on our council. So, we have close links with NUS Wales and we're very proud of that, and it's very productive. They don't have a vote, but they do have a voice and it really matters. We we're, again, ahead of the rest of the UK in requiring all HE providers to have student charters and there are elements of student protection within the student charter. The UK-wide quality code also has elements in it where arrangements have to be specified about the protection of student interests. That is particularly, in essence, around circumstances where a provider gets into difficulties and they might wish to close a course or something more drastic and then what arrangements are in place to make sure that those students who are in train are protected. So, that is there and we've worked hard with the sector and with NUS Wales to get those measures in place. There's more development work in train at the moment, so we've asked Universities Wales to construct a protection that takes account of the approach to protecting the student interests in higher education. We're also requiring further education institutions who are regulated and deliver higher education to do similar or the same, and that's very important. The students who are HE students in FE are absolutely not second-best, and they should have the same protections.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: But is all this a general piece of work? It's not Brexit-specific, although, no doubt, it may—.
Dr David Blaney: I think that's fair to say, yes. The other dimension around Brexit is the immigration status of EU students, and that's, kind of, beyond our pay scale—that's a UK Government issue.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Is that something that you have a view on?
Dr David Blaney: It's clearly in the interest of the enrichment of the curriculum and the student experience for students in Welsh institutions to be able to have students from other EU countries in the mix. So, it would be nice to find ways of continuing to facilitate that.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. Now, of course, you have a statutory duty as well to assess the academic quality of the work in our higher education institutions, and I'm just wondering what potential impacts you think that Brexit might have on that particular aspect.
Dr David Blaney: I think there are possibly a couple of things to say, and one, in a sense, echoes what I was just saying in the final part of my previous response, which is that part of the quality of the student experience is the richness that you get from having students in your cohort who have different backgrounds and different perspectives. So, if there is a continuing reduction in the number of EU students coming into Welsh institutions, then that richness deteriorates. That doesn't mean to say that the base or the threshold standard of what's required for a degree will come under pressure, it's just about the richness on top of that, which will be, in a sense, a quality-enhancement issue. That would be something that we would wish to try to protect against, but in the end you can't force EU students to come—you have to try and look attractive, and we've touched on that. The baseline requirement assessment of quality will not be affected by Brexit, except in so far as the machinery we use to discharge our statutory responsibility, which is through the Quality Assurance Agency, which themselves are accredited with European Association for Quality Assurance in Higher Education, the European machinery for higher education quality. And there's a set of standards around that, and we would obviously wish not to be in a position where our ability to use and adhere to those standards is adversely impacted upon. Those standards will still exist, and it will be possible for the British system to adhere to them, even if they're not actually able to play in the same way. Then the only other thing I would say is that one of the factors that can cause the quality of the learning and teaching experience to be likely to become inadequate is when institutions come under financial pressure, just because their capacity to maintain the same sort of student experience can get under pressure. So, clearly, we will be looking for and making sure that institutions manage the financial pressures, if there are any—and there are some at the moment, as we've described—and manage those carefully. And in all of that, we will expect institutions to do their duty to make sure that the commitments they've already made to students are carried through. So, where students have already started on the course, they need to be able to finish that course—you can't just pull the plug out. So, all of that comes into the arrangements for quality as well. So, we'll be keeping an eye on that.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. A lot of what you've told us in the last three quarters of an hour or so will have costs attached, depending on the impacts. Certainly, we're in choppy waters as a sector anyway, and the risk is that things will be even more choppy, if you'll excuse that level of political interpretation, over the years to come. I'm just wondering what advice you might have given the Welsh Government in terms of what level of transition funding, or Brexit transition funding, might be required by the sector, and if you have, what the Welsh Government might have told you.
Bethan Owen: I mentioned earlier that, obviously, we've provided information in terms of the assumptions that the sector are making on income. So, for the year 2017-18, that was £129 million. I think the extent to which that needs to be replaced or supported with transition funding depends absolutely on what the final arrangements for Brexit are, but it's an appropriate point to refer to the report that Professor Graeme Reid has produced, commissioned by Welsh Government. That was, and has, provided advice and recommendations for supporting research and innovation in the transition period. But, again, the Reid recommendations in that report build on the Diamond recommendations, and as soon as Diamond is in place—and Reid is providing recommendations in addition, to establish funding on the basis that the funding needs to be available in Wales to maintain and develop and strengthen the research and innovation infrastructure that we have.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Are you not worried, though, that the clock is ticking and that we really don't know what the situation is at this point?
Dr David Blaney: Do you mean the Brexit situation?
Llyr Gruffydd AM: The Brexit clock, yes.
Dr David Blaney: Uncertainty is unhelpful, because as I've said several times, the sector is a managed sector at the moment. I don't think there's—. We're not seeing maverick stuff, but actually you can only manage, really, what you can see and what you can reasonably predict. So, the longer the uncertainty persists, the more difficult that is for institutional management and, indeed, for the rest of the machinery to support them. So, yes, the sooner we get clarity, the better for everybody, I imagine.
Darren Millar AM: Chair, can I just ask a question?
John Griffiths AM: Yes, Darren.
Darren Millar AM: In terms of uncertainty, though, we've still got this uncertainty over whether the extra cash that the Government's going to have to spend as a result of Diamond being implemented is coming to the HE sector. They've given a political commitment, but you've got absolutely no other assurance of the sums of money that are coming in. We've got the reform of tertiary education arrangements in Wales, which are also under way, so it's a bit of a perfect storm for you, isn't it, really, with all of these three things happening at the same time?
Dr David Blaney: We're certainly kept busy.
Darren Millar AM: But two of those things are in the gift of the Welsh Government to sort out for you, aren't they?
Dr David Blaney: Well, the policy on the reform of the post-compulsory sector absolutely is a Welsh Government policy. The extent to which they can pre-empt a budgetary process and give us clear sight of the amount of money in future years is—. Well, again, it's not for me to comment. My understanding is that that's difficult for them to do, and I would repeat what I said earlier: officials have been as helpful as I think they can be in respect of that. I mean, you're right, we've only got a political commitment between two people currently in post. It would be great to have that firmer. I'm not sure how that could be done.
Darren Millar AM: I mean, that statement about the savings accrued from Diamond being reinvested wholly into the HE sector has not been repeated, frankly, has it, since the coalition deal was struck?
Dr David Blaney: No, but it hasn't been rescinded either, so—.
Darren Millar AM: No, but there have been opportunities—repeated opportunities—in the Chamber, where the Cabinet Secretary's been asked to repeat that commitment, and the First Minister's been asked to repeat that commitment and has not given that commitment. That must concern you, and must concern your university sector even more than, perhaps, some of the elements of Brexit that we're discussing.
Dr David Blaney: Bethan has outlined earlier on in this session the fact that institutions are currently running deficit budgets in order not to lose the infrastructure on the assumption that the Diamond money will come in. If anything were to cause significant perturbation, either to the timeline of that or to it coming in at all, then there would be much more of what Medwin Hughes calls 'houskeeping' that would be required, and that would be significant. So, at the moment—I don't like the expression 'valley of death', but there is a valley to cross, and I think the sector is reasonably confident about how wide and how deep that valley is. There's a demographic valley as well. So, there are several valleys that they're crossing—the metaphor fails, doesn't it, really, but I think you get the drift? So, there are a number of challenges and they can see their way out of some of those challenges, but if any one of these starts to get significantly disrupted, then that would be a real issue for them.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I go on to ask about other barriers to Welsh universities gaining more funding from UK research councils? What would you say those barriers are?
Dr David Blaney: Well, I think there are a couple of things, really, to say. The first one—and we'll sound like a stuck record if we're not careful—is that there's an issue about investment and the Reid report makes this very clear. So, he has reaffirmed research that had been done previously that identifies that, actually, the quality of the research base in Welsh universities and the productivity of that Welsh research base are both good, there's just not enough of them, and that, in the end, is a product of investment decisions. They have particularly looked at the deficit in science, technology, engineering and mathematics areas, and I always say that research is not just STEM. I mean, STEM is important, and I'm not denying the deficit in that area, but we have to also remember that the research agenda for Wales is not just STEM—it's arts, humanities, it's social sciences. If you look at the impact on public policy that could come from social science research—tremendous. And we're very good at it in Wales. The Welsh impact in its research is better than anywhere else in the UK, so that's good. So, they do very well, and we just really need to invest a little bit further—so continue to do very well, but put it on a broader front. If you want to be able to play into the UK-wide research funding, then the investment has two dimensions to it. One is just having enough researchers to be able to play into those increasingly larger projects rather than small-scale projects. If you haven't got the critical mass, it's very hard to make the case that you can play. And the second thing is that UK-wide research pots nearly always fund at about 80 per cent of the total cost of the research, and the other 20 per cent is meant to be found from the core research funding for the university, and if you're in a situation where your core research funding is not competitive, then you're not going to be competitive at getting that money. So, that's, kind of, straightforward. There are other things. I think it's fair to say that the Welsh sector has not been sufficiently focused on getting in on the conversations with the research councils, making sure they're in the various committees and so on. We are intending to do a bit of work to see if we can systematise that a bit better—that engagement—because there's no doubt about it: it's not to say that this system is in any way inappropriate, but the more you're in the conversations, the more likely you are to be better placed to respond to the research challenges that come up.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. One final question: in terms of the researcher collaborations and networks that exist, do you see potential difficulties after Brexit for the continuation and enhancement of those, and are there any particular lessons to learn from Sêr Cymru II?
Dr David Blaney: I think that there are two things to say here as well. First of all, the Brexit deal might or might not impact adversely on the capacity of Welsh and, indeed, UK research infrastructure to play into broader collaborative activity across Europe, and, in a sense, that's a function of the deal whatever the deal looks like, and we'll have to wait and see. But we've mentioned playing into Horizon Europe, and being able to continue with that would be an important part of that capacity. It's not just the money, it's being in the club and it's the signalling that we're in the game. So, all of that would be important. And then the other part of my response to this would be that, actually, Wales will need to continue to be good at the research it does, so maintaining the quality, maintaining the impact, and hopefully growing the critical mass. The Sêr Cymru initiative has been quite important in doing that, because it's been very focused, capturing key research players, and the attractiveness that that has then to other researchers around them, and to industry collaboration, and they have been areas of real strength that we've invested in. And I think they are already showing dividends in terms of the capacity to win more research funding, and to establish an even stronger presence in the international research market.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Just one further point, from Darren.
Darren Millar AM: Just very briefly, one of the pieces of feedback that the committee members received at a stakeholder engagement event, which took place prior to this inquiry starting, to receive oral evidence, was about the research funding that is available from the charitable sector, and how poorly Wales does in attracting some of that research. I think we had some figures from the British Heart Foundation, which said they have £100 million a year available for research grants, or something like that, and we're getting 1 per cent of that coming into Wales, which is obviously pretty low down. I appreciate that research into the type of activity that they want to put their money into, Wales may not be particularly good at, and there may be other opportunities with other charities and partnerships. What work are you doing in order to build the capacity that Wales has to attract more of that charitable sector research funding into Wales?
Bethan Owen: One of the issues is the capacity to engage with that funding, because of the overhead issue that David mentioned. Charitable funding at the moment doesn't attract any overhead funding. Again, that could be built in to our funding, if we had the capacity to increase our quality-related research funding. There is an element in England.
Darren Millar AM: But that pressure's the same in other parts of the UK, is it not? So the overhead funding is still an issue in England, and in other places.
Bethan Owen: There is an increased contribution, and I think it's an element that was increased this year to acknowledge that. But there will be differentiation between different charities. I'm fairly certain that some of our institutions will be very strong with the cancer charities, possibly not the heart foundation. And some of that will reflect on focusing on our strengths, but to have that fuller picture.
Darren Millar AM: So, this gearing issue that you mentioned earlier on, for every £1 that somebody else puts on the table, they can draw in another £4 on top, because that £1 will cover the overheads, whereas the rest of the research cash—.
Dr David Blaney: That's exactly it. So, the more you're able to invest—. You know, we sometimes get into a conversation about the unhypothecated nature of our research funding, but actually that creates a flexibility and the infrastructure investment that allows institutions to be able to respond to these other opportunities. Without that, they can't do it, because if you're not careful, you've got institutions engaging in UK-wide or charity-based research activities where they're actually having to pay for it themselves—they're running at a loss.
Darren Millar AM: So that's the main problem; it's not that Welsh universities aren't doing their best to get this cash in. Or is it a bit of both?
Dr David Blaney: I think, in the main, universities and researchers will get their cash from wherever they can, so I don't think it's a lack of appetite.
Darren Millar AM: Okay.
John Griffiths AM: Okay. Well, thank you, both, for coming in to give evidence to the committee this morning. You will be sent a draft of the transcript, to check for accuracy. Diolch yn fawr. Okay then, the next item is item 3, papers to note, the first of which is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education on the school organisation code. The second is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from the Chair of the Finance Committee regarding scrutiny of the Welsh Government's draft budget for the forthcoming financial year, which we will be discussing under item 6 on the agenda. Paper to note 4 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on parental attitudes towards managing young children's behaviour. And the final paper to note, paper to note 5, is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on the children and family delivery grant, which we will discuss later on in private session, if Members are content. Okay. Are you content to note those papers on that basis? Okay. Thanks very much. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting, and also for items 1 and 2 of the 20 September meeting. Is the committee content? Yes. Thank you very much. We will move then into private session. | |
doc_194 | Grad B: what things to talk about .
Grad F: I 'm {disfmarker} What ? Really ? Oh , that 's horrible ! Disincentive !
Grad A: OK , we 're recording .
Grad F: Hello ?
Grad B: Check check {pause} check check .
Grad D: Uh , yeah .
Grad F: Hello ? Which am I ?
Professor C: Oh right .
Grad B: Alright . Good .
Grad F: Channel fi OK . OK . Are you doing something ? OK , then I guess I 'm doing something . So , um , So basically the result of m much thinking since the last time we met , um , but not as much writing , um , is a sheet that I have a lot of , like , thoughts and justification of comments on but I 'll just pass out as is right now . So , um , here . If you could pass this around ? And there 's two things . And so one on one side is {disfmarker} on one side is a sort of the revised sort of updated semantic specification .
Grad D: Um {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} wait .
Grad F: And the other side is , um , sort of a revised construction formalism .
Grad E: This is just one sheet , right ?
Grad D: Ah ! Just one sheet .
Grad F: It 's just one sheet .
Grad D: OK .
Grad F: It 's just a {disfmarker} Nothing else .
Grad D: Front , back .
Grad F: Um , Enough to go around ? OK . And in some ways it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's very similar to {disfmarker} There are very few changes in some ways from what we 've , um , uh , b done before but I don't think everyone here has seen all of this . So , uh , I 'm not sure where to begin . Um , as usual the disclaimers are there are {disfmarker} all these things are {disfmarker} it 's only slightly more stable than it was before .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: And , um , after a little bit more discussion and especially like Keith and I {disfmarker} I have more linguistic things to settle in the next few days , um , it 'll probably change again some more .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: Um , maybe I will {disfmarker} let 's start b let 's start on number two actually on the notation , um , because that 's , I 'm thinking , possibly a little more familiar to , um {disfmarker} to people . OK , so the top block is just sort of a {disfmarker} sort of abstract nota it 's sort of like , um , listings of the kinds of things that we can have . And certain things that have , um , changed , have changed back to this . There {disfmarker} there 's been a little bit of , um , going back and forth . But basically obviously all constructions have some kind of name . I forgot to include that you could have a type included in this line .
Professor C: What I was gonna {disfmarker} Right .
Grad F: So something like , um {disfmarker} Well , there 's an example {disfmarker} the textual example at the end has clausal construction . So , um , just to show it doesn't have to be beautiful It could be , you know , simple old text as well . Um , there are a couple of {disfmarker} Uh , these three have various ways of doing certain things . So I 'll just try to go through them . So they could all have a type at the beginning . Um , and then they say the key word construction
Professor C: Oh , I see .
Grad F: and they have some name .
Professor C: So {disfmarker} so the current syntax is if it s if there 's a type it 's before construct
Grad F: Yeah , right .
Professor C: OK , that 's fine .
Grad F: OK , and then it has a block that is constituents . And as usual I guess all the constructions her all the examples here have only , um , tsk {comment} one type of constituent , that is a constructional constituent . I think that 's actually gonna turn out to m be certainly the most common kind . But in general instead of the word " construct " , th here you might have " meaning " or " form " as well . OK ? So if there 's some element that doesn't {disfmarker} that isn't yet constructional in the sense that it maps form and meaning . OK , um , the main change with the constructs which {disfmarker} each of which has , um , the key word " construct " and then some name , and then some type specification , is that it 's {disfmarker} it 's pro it 's often {disfmarker} sometimes the case in the first case here that you know what kind of construction it is . So for example whatever I have here is gonna be a form of the word " throw " , or it 's gonna be a form of the word , you know , I don't know , " happy " , or something like that . Or , you know , some it 'll be a specific word or maybe you 'll have the type . You 'll say " I need a p uh spatial relation phrase here " or " I need a directional specifier here " . So - uh you could have a j a actual type here . Um , or you could just say in the second case that you only know the meaning type . So a very common example of this is that , you know , in directed motion , the first person to do something should be an agent of some kind , often a human . Right ? So if I {disfmarker} you know , the um , uh , run down the street then I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I run down the street , it 's typed , uh , " I " , meaning category is what 's there . The {disfmarker} the new kind is this one that is sort of a pair and , um , sort of skipping fonts and whatever . The idea is that sometimes there are , um , general constructions that you know , that you 're going to need . It 's {disfmarker} it 's the equivalent of a noun phrase or a prepositional phrase , or something like that there .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: And usually it has formal um , considerations that will go along with it .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: And then uh , you might know something much more specific depending on what construction you 're talking about , about what meaning {disfmarker} what specific meaning you want . So the example again at the bottom , which is directed motion , you might need a nominal expression to take the place of , you know , um , " the big th " , you you know , " the big {disfmarker} the tall dark man " , you know , " walked into the room " .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: But because of the nature of this particular construction you know not just that it 's nominal of some kind but in particular , that it 's some kind of animate nominal , and which will apply just as well to like , you know , a per you know , a simple proper noun or to some complicated expression . Um , so I don't know if the syntax will hold but something that gives you a way to do both constructional and meaning types . So . OK , then I don't think the , {comment} um {disfmarker} at least {disfmarker} Yeah . {comment} None of these examples have anything different for formal constraints ? But you can refer to any of the , um , sort of available elements and scope , right ? which here are the constructs , {comment} to say something about the relation . And I think i if you not if you compare like the top block and the textual block , um , we dropped like the little F subscript . The F subscripts refer to the " form " piece of the construct .
Professor C: Good .
Grad F: And I think that , um , in general it 'll be unambiguous . Like if you were giving a formal constraint then you 're referring to the formal pole of that . So {disfmarker} so by saying {disfmarker} if I just said " Name one " then that means name one formal and we 're talking about formal struc {comment} Which {disfmarker} which makes sense . Uh , there are certain times when we 'll have an exception to that , in which case you could just indicate " here I mean the meaningful for some reason " . Right ? Or {disfmarker} Actually it 's more often that , only to handle this one special case of , you know , " George and Jerry walk into the room in that order " .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: So we have a few funny things where something in the meaning might refer to something in the form . But {disfmarker} but s we 're not gonna really worry about that for right now and there are way We can be more specific if we have to later on . OK , and so in terms of the {disfmarker} the relations , you know , as usual they 're before and ends . I should have put an example in of something that isn't an interval relation but in form you might also have a value binding . You know , you could say that , um , you know , " name - one dot " , t you know , " number equals " , you know , a plural or something like that .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: There are certain things that are attribute - value , similar to the bindings below but I mean they 're just {disfmarker} us usually they 're going to be value {disfmarker} value fillers , right ? OK , and then again semantic constraints here are just {disfmarker} are just bindings . There was talk of changing the name of that . And Johno and I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you and I can like fight about that if you like ? but about changing it to " semantic {pause} n effects " , which I thought was a little bit too order - biased
Grad B: Well {disfmarker} Th
Grad F: and " semantic bindings " , which I thought might be too restrictive in case we don't have only bindings . And so it was an issue whether constraints {disfmarker} um , there were some linguists who reacted against " constraints " , saying , " oh , if it 's not used for matching , then it shouldn't be called a constraint " . But I think we want to be uncommitted about whether it 's used for matching or not . Right ? Cuz there are {disfmarker} I think we thought of some situations where it would be useful to use whatever the c bindings are , for actual , you know , sort of like modified constraining purposes .
Professor C: Well , you definitely want to de - couple the formalism from the parsing strategy . So that whether or not it 's used for matching or only for verification , I {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: Yeah , yeah . It 's used shouldn't matter , right ? Mm - hmm .
Professor C: s For sure . I mean , I don't know what , uh , term we want to use
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: but we don't want to {disfmarker}
Grad F: Yeah , uh , there was one time when {disfmarker} when Hans explained why " constraints " was a misleading word for him .
Professor C: Yep .
Grad F: And I think the reason that he gave was similar to the reason why Johno thought it was a misleading term , which was just an interesting coincidence . Um , but , uh {disfmarker} And so I was like , " OK , well both of you don't like it ?
Professor C: It 's g it 's gone .
Grad F: Fine , we can change it " . But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm starting to like it again .
Grad B: But {disfmarker}
Grad F: So that that 's why {disfmarker} {comment} That 's why I 'll stick with it .
Grad A: Well , you know what ?
Grad F: So {disfmarker}
Grad A: If you have an " if - then " phrase , do you know what the " then " phrase is called ?
Professor C: Th
Grad F: What ? Con - uh , a consequent ?
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad F: Yeah , but it 's not an " if - then " .
Grad A: No , but {disfmarker}
Professor C: I know . Anyway , so the other {disfmarker} the other strategy you guys could consider is when you don't know what word to put , you could put no word ,
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: just meaning . OK ? And the then let {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: Yeah , that 's true .
Grad B: So that 's why you put semantic constraints up top and meaning bindings down {disfmarker} down here ?
Grad F: Oh , oops ! No . That was just a mistake of cut and paste from when I was going with it .
Grad B: OK .
Professor C: OK .
Grad F: So , I 'm sorry . I didn't mean {disfmarker} that one 's an in unintentional .
Grad B: So this should be semantic and {disfmarker}
Grad F: Sometimes I 'm intentionally inconsistent
Grad B:
Grad F: cuz I 'm not sure yet . Here , I actually {disfmarker} it was just a mistake .
Grad B: Th - so this definitely should be " semantic constraints " down at the bottom ?
Grad E: Sure .
Grad F: Yeah .
Grad B: OK .
Grad F: Well , unless I go with " meaning " but i I mean , I kind of like " meaning " better than " semantic "
Grad B: Or {disfmarker}
Professor C: Oh , whatever .
Grad F: but I think there 's {pause} vestiges of other people 's biases .
Professor C: Or {disfmarker} wh That - b
Grad F: Like {disfmarker}
Professor C: Right . Minor {disfmarker} min problem {disfmarker}
Grad F: Minor point .
Professor C: OK .
Grad E: Extremely .
Grad F: OK , um , so I think the middle block doesn't really give you any more information , ex than the top block . And the bottom block similarly only just illus you know , all it does is illustrate that you can drop the subscripts and {disfmarker} and that you can drop the , um {disfmarker} uh , that you can give dual types . Oh , one thing I should mention is about " designates " . I think I 'm actually inconsistent across these as well . So , um , strike out the M subscript on the middle block .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: So basically now , um , this is actually {disfmarker} this little change actually goes along with a big linguistic change , which is that " designates " isn't only something for the semantics to worry about now .
Professor C: Good .
Grad F: So we want s " designates " to actually know one of the constituents which acts like a head in some respects but is sort of , um , really important for say composition later on . So for instance , if some other construction says , you know , " are you of type {disfmarker} is this part of type whatever " , um , the " designates " tells you which sort of part is the meaning part . OK , so if you have like " the big red ball " , you know , you wanna know if there 's an object or a noun . Well , ball is going to be the designated sort of element of that kind of phrase .
Grad E: Mmm .
Grad F: Um , there is a slight complication here which is that when we talk about form it 's useful sometimes to talk about , um {disfmarker} to talk about there also being a designated object and we think that that 'll be the same one , right ? So the ball is the head of the phrase , " the r the {disfmarker} " , um , " big red ball " , and the entity denoted by the word " ball " is sort of the semantic head in some ways of {disfmarker} of this sort of , um , in interesting larger element .
Professor C: A a and the {disfmarker} Yeah . And there 's {disfmarker} uh there 's ca some cases where the grammar depends on some form property of the head . And {disfmarker} and this enables you to get that , if I understand you right .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: Right , right .
Grad E: That 's the idea .
Professor C: Yeah yeah .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: And , uh , you might be able to say things like if the head has to go last in a head - final language , you can refer to the head as a p the , you know {disfmarker} the formal head as opposed to the rest of the form having to be at the end of that decision .
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: So that 's a useful thing so that you can get some internal structural constraints in .
Professor C: OK , so that all looks good . Let me {disfmarker} Oh , w Oh . I don't know . Were you finished ?
Grad F: Um , there was a list of things that isn't included but you {disfmarker} you can {disfmarker} you can ask a question . That might @ @ it .
Professor C: OK . So , i if I understand this the {disfmarker} aside from , uh , construed and all that sort of stuff , the {disfmarker} the differences are mainly that , {vocalsound} we 've gone to the possibility of having form - meaning pairs for a type
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: or actually gone back to ,
Grad F: Right .
Professor C: if we go back far enough {disfmarker}
Grad F: Well , except for their construction meaning , so it 's not clear that , uh {disfmarker} Well , right now it 's a c uh contr construction type and meaning type . So I don't know what a form type is .
Professor C: Oh , I see . Yeah , yeah , yeah . I 'm sorry , you 're right .
Grad F: Yeah .
Professor C: A construction type . Uh , that 's fine . But it , um {disfmarker}
Grad F: Right . A well , and a previous , um , you know , version of the notation certainly allowed you to single out the meaning bit by it . So you could say " construct of type whatever designates something " .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad F: But that was mostly for reference purposes , just to refer to the meaning pole . I don't think that it was often used to give an extra meaning const type constraint on the meaning , which is really what we want most of the time I think .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Um , I {disfmarker} I don't know if we 'll ever have a case where we actually h if there is a form category constraint , you could imagine having a triple there that says , you know {disfmarker} that 's kind of weird .
Professor C: No , no , no , I don't think so . I think that you 'll {disfmarker} you 'll do fine .
Grad E: I {disfmarker}
Professor C: In fact , these are , um , as long as {disfmarker} as Mark isn't around , these are form constraints . So a nominal expression is {disfmarker} uh , the fact that it 's animate , is semantic . The fact that it 's n uh , a nominal expression I would say on most people 's notion of {disfmarker} of f you know , higher form types , this i this is one .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: Right , right .
Professor C: And I think that 's just fine .
Grad E: Yeah , yeah .
Grad F: Which is fine , yeah .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: It 's {disfmarker} that now , um , I 'm mentioned this , I {disfmarker} I don't know if I ever explained this but the point of , um , I mentioned in the last meeting , {comment} the point of having something called " nominal expression " is , um , because it seems like having the verb subcategorize for , you know , like say taking as its object just some expression which , um , designates an object or designates a thing , or whatever , um , that leads to some syntactic problems basically ? So you wanna , you know {disfmarker} you sort of have this problem like " OK , well , I 'll put the word " , uh , let 's say , the word " dog " , you know . And that has to come right after the verb
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: cuz we know verb meets its object . And then we have a construction that says , oh , you can have " the " preceding a noun . And so you 'd have this sort of problem that the verb has to meet the designatum .
Professor C: Right .
Grad E: And you could get , you know , " the kicked dog " or something like that , meaning " kicked the dog " .
Professor C: Right .
Grad E: Um , so you kind of have to let this phrase idea in there
Professor C: That I {disfmarker} I have no problem with it at all .
Grad E: but {disfmarker} It - it
Professor C: I think it 's fine .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: Yeah . Right , n s you may be {disfmarker} you may not be like everyone else in {disfmarker} in Berkeley ,
Grad E: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad F: but that 's OK .
Grad E: I mean , we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we sort of thought we were getting away with , uh {disfmarker} with , a p
Grad F: Uh , we don't mind either , so {disfmarker}
Grad E: I mean , this is not reverting to the X - bar theory of {disfmarker} of phrase structure .
Professor C: Right .
Grad E: But , uh ,
Grad F: Right .
Grad E: I just know that this is {disfmarker} Like , we didn't originally have in mind that , uh {disfmarker} that verbs would subcategorize for a particular sort of form .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: But they do .
Grad E: Um , but they does .
Grad F: Well , there 's an alternative to this
Grad E: At least in English .
Grad F: which is , um {disfmarker} The question was did we want directed motion ,
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad F: which is an argument structure construction {disfmarker}
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: did we want it to worry about , um , anything more than the fact that it , you know , has semantic {disfmarker} You know , it 's sort of frame - based construction . So one option that , you know , Keith had mentioned also was like , well if you have more abstract constructions such as subject , predicate , basically things like grammatical relations ,
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: those could intersect with these in such a way that subject , predicate , or subject , predicate , subject , verb , ob you know , verb object would require that those things that f fill a subject and object are NOM expressions .
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: And that would be a little bit cleaner in some way . But you know , for now , I mean ,
Professor C: Yeah . But it {disfmarker} y y it 's {disfmarker} yeah , just moving it {disfmarker} moving the c the cons the constraints around .
Grad F: uh , you know . M moving it to another place , right .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: OK , so that 's {disfmarker}
Grad F: But there does {disfmarker} basically , the point is there has to be that constraint somewhere , right ?
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: So , yeah .
Professor C: And so that was the {disfmarker}
Grad F: Robert 's not happy now ?
Grad A: No !
Grad F: Oh , OK .
Professor C: OK , and sort of going with that is that the designatum also now is a pair .
Grad F: Yes .
Professor C: Instead of just the meaning .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And that aside from some terminology , that 's basically it .
Grad F: Right .
Professor C: I just want to b I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm asking .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Yep .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: Yeah , um , the un sort of the un - addressed questions in this , um , definitely would for instance be semantic constraints we talked about .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad F: Here are just bindings but , right ? we might want to introduce mental spaces {disfmarker} You know , there 's all these things that we don't {disfmarker}
Professor C: The whole {disfmarker} the mental space thing is clearly not here .
Grad F: Right ? So there 's going to be some extra {disfmarker} you know , definitely other notation we 'll need for that which we skip for now .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: By the way , I do want to get on that as soon as Robert gets back .
Grad F: Uh Yeah .
Professor C: So , uh , the {disfmarker} the mental space thing .
Grad F: OK .
Professor C: Um , obviously , {vocalsound} construal is a b is a b is a big component of that
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: so this probably not worth trying to do anything till he gets back . But sort of as soon as he gets back I think um , we ought to {disfmarker}
Grad F: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad E: So what 's the {disfmarker} what 's the time frame ? I forgot again when you 're going away for how long ?
Grad A: Just , uh , as a {disfmarker} sort of a mental bridge , I 'm not {disfmarker} I 'm skipping fourth of July . So , uh , {vocalsound} right afterwards I 'm back .
Grad E: OK . OK .
Grad F: What ? You 're missing like the premier American holiday ? What 's the point of spending a year here ?
Grad A: Uh , I 've had it often enough .
Grad F: So , anyway .
Grad B: Well he w he went to college here .
Grad F: Oh , yeah , I forgot . Oops . {comment} Sorry .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad F: OK .
Professor C: And furthermore it 's well worth missing .
Grad F: Not in California .
Grad E: Yes .
Grad F: Yeah , that 's true . I like {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I like spending fourth of July in other countries , {vocalsound} whenever I can .
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: Um {disfmarker}
Professor C: OK , so that 's great .
Grad F: Construal , OK , so {disfmarker} Oh , so there was one question that came out . I hate this thing . Sorry . Um , which is , so something like " past " which i you know , we think is a very simple {disfmarker} uh , we 've often just stuck it in as a feature ,
Professor C: Right . Right .
Grad F: you know , " oh , {pause} this event takes place before speech time " , {comment} OK , is what this means . Um , it 's often thought of as {disfmarker} it is also considered a mental space ,
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: you know , by , you know , lots of people around here .
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: So there 's this issue of well sometimes there are really exotic explicit space builders that say " in France , blah - blah - blah " ,
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: and you have to build up {disfmarker} you ha you would imagine that would require you , you know , to be very specific about the machinery , whereas past is a very conventionalized one and we sort of know what it means but it {disfmarker} we doesn't {disfmarker} don't necessarily want to , you know , unload all the notation every time we see that it 's past tense .
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: So , you know , we could think of our {disfmarker} uh , just like X - schema " walk " refers to this complicated structure , past refers to , you know , a certain configuration of this thing with respect to it .
Professor C: I think that 's exactly right .
Grad F: So {disfmarker} so we 're kind of like having our cake and eating it {disfmarker}
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad F: you know , having it both ways , right ?
Professor C: Yeah . {pause} No , I think {disfmarker} I think that i we 'll have to see how it works out when we do the details
Grad F: So , i i Mm - hmm .
Professor C: but my intuition would be that that 's right .
Grad F: Mm - hmm . Yeah , OK .
Grad A: Do you want to do the same for space ?
Grad F: Wha - sorry ?
Grad A: Space ?
Grad F: Space ?
Grad A: Here ? Now ?
Grad F: Oh , oh , oh , oh , instead of just time ?
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Yeah , yeah , yeah . Same thing . So there are very conventionalized like deictic ones , right ? And then I think for other spaces that you introduce , you could just attach y whatever {disfmarker}
Grad A: Hmm .
Grad F: You could build up an appropriately {disfmarker} uh , appropriate structure according to the l the sentence .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad A: Hmm , well this {disfmarker} this basically would involve everything you can imagine to fit under your C dot something {disfmarker}
Grad E: N
Grad A: you know , where {disfmarker} where it 's contextually dependent ,
Grad F: Yeah . Right .
Grad A: " what is now , what was past ,
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: what is in the future , where is this , what is here , what is there , what is {disfmarker} "
Grad F: Mm - hmm . Yeah . So time and space . Um , we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll get that on the other side a little , like very minimally . There 's a sort of there 's a slot for setting time and setting place .
Professor C: Good .
Grad F: And you know , you could imagine for both of those are absolute things you could say about the time and place , and then there are many in more interestingly , linguistically anyway , {comment} there are relative things that , you know , you relate the event in time and space to where you are now . If there 's something a lot more complicated like , or so {disfmarker} hypothetical or whatever , then you have to do your job ,
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: like or somebody 's job anyway .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: I 'm gonna point to {disfmarker} at random .
Grad E: Yeah . I mean , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm s curious about how much of the mental {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm not sure that the formalism , sort of the grammatical side of things , {comment} is gonna have that much going on in terms of the mental space stuff . You know , um , basically all of these so - called space builders that are in the sentence are going to sort of {disfmarker} I think of it as , sort of giving you the coordinates of , you know {disfmarker} assuming that at any point in discourse there 's the possibility that we could be sort of talking about a bunch of different world scenarios , whatever , and the speaker 's supposed to be keeping track of those . The , um {disfmarker} the construction that you actually get is just gonna sort of give you a cue as to which one of those that you 've already got going , um , you 're supposed to add structure to .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: So " in France , uh , Watergate wouldn't have hurt Nixon " or something like that . Um , well , you say , " alright , I 'm supposed to add some structure to my model of this hypothetical past France universe " or something like that . The information in the sentence tells you that much but it doesn't tell you like exactly what it {disfmarker} what the point of doing so is . So for example , depending on the linguistic con uh , context it could be {disfmarker} like the question is for example , what does " Watergate " refer to there ? Does it , you know {disfmarker} does it refer to , um {disfmarker} if you just hear that sentence cold , the assumption is that when you say " Watergate " you 're referring to " a Watergate - like scandal as we might imagine it happening in France " . But in a different context , " oh , you know , if Nixon had apologized right away it wouldn't {disfmarker} you know , Watergate wouldn't have hurt him so badly in the US and in France it wouldn't have hurt him at all " . Now we 're s now that " Watergate " {disfmarker} we 're now talking about the real one ,
Grad F: They 're real , right .
Grad E: and the " would " sort of {disfmarker} it 's a sort of different dimension of hypothe - theticality , right ? We 're not saying {disfmarker} What 's hypothetical about this world .
Grad F: I see {disfmarker} right .
Grad E: In the first case , hypothetically we 're imagining that Watergate happened in France .
Grad F: Hmm .
Grad E: In the second case we 're imagining hypothetically that Nixon had apologized right away
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: or something . Right ?
Grad F: Right .
Grad E: So a lot of this isn't happening at the grammatical level .
Professor C: Correct .
Grad E: Uh , um , and so {disfmarker}
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: I don't know where that sits then ,
Grad A: Hmm .
Grad E: sort of the idea of sorting out what the person meant .
Grad F: It seems like , um , the grammatical things such as the auxiliaries that you know introduce these conditionals , whatever , give you sort of the {disfmarker} the most basi
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: th those we {disfmarker} I think we can figure out what the possibilities are , right ?
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: There are sort of a relatively limited number . And then how they interact with some extra thing like " in France " or " if such - and - such " , that 's like there are certain ways that they c they can {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: You know , one is a more specific version of the general pattern that the grammat grammar gives you .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: I think . But , you know , whatever ,
Professor C: Yeah , in the short run all we need is a enough mechanism on the form side to get things going .
Grad F: we {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker}
Grad E: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor C: Uh , I {disfmarker} uh , you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker}
Grad E: But the whole point of {disfmarker} the whole point of what Fauconnier and Turner have to say about , uh , mental spaces , and blending , and all that stuff is that you don't really get that much out of the sentence . You know , there 's not that much information contained in the sentence . It just says , " Here . Add this structure to this space . " and exactly what that means for the overall ongoing interpretation is quite open . An individual sentence could mean a hundred different things depending on , quote , " what the space configuration is at the time of utterance " .
Grad F: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad E: And so somebody 's gonna have to be doing a whole lot of work but not me , I think .
Professor C: Well {disfmarker} I think that 's right . Oh , I {disfmarker} yeah , I , uh , uh {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} Not k I th I don't think it 's completely right . I mean , in fact a sentence examples you gave in f did constrain the meaning b the form did constrain the meaning ,
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: and so , um , it isn't , uh {disfmarker}
Grad E: Sure , but like what {disfmarker} what was the point of saying that sentence about Nixon and France ? That is not {disfmarker} there is nothing about that in the {disfmarker} in the sentence really .
Grad F: That 's OK . We usually don't know the point of the sentence at all .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: But we know what it 's trying to say .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: Y yeah .
Grad F: We {disfmarker} we know that it 's {disfmarker} what predication it 's setting up .
Professor C: But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} bottom line , I agree with you ,
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: That 's all .
Professor C: that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that we 're not expecting much out of the , uh f
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: Purely linguistic cues , right ?
Professor C: uh , the purely form cues , yeah .
Grad F: So .
Professor C: And , um {disfmarker} I mean , you 're {disfmarker} you 're the linguist
Grad F: Mmm .
Professor C: but , uh , it seems to me that th these {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} you know , we 've talked about maybe a half a dozen linguistics theses in the last few minutes or something .
Grad E: Yeah , yeah .
Professor C: Yeah , I mean {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah . Oh , yeah .
Professor C: uh , I {disfmarker} I mean , that {disfmarker} that 's my feeling that {disfmarker} that these are really hard uh , problems that decide exactly what {disfmarker} what 's going on .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . Yeah . Yeah .
Professor C: OK .
Grad F: OK , so , um , one other thing I just want to point out is there 's a lot of confusion about the terms like " profile , designate , focus " , et cetera , et cetera .
Professor C: Uh , right , right , right .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Um , for now I 'm gonna say like " profile " 's often used {disfmarker} like two uses that come to mind immediately . One is in the traditional like semantic highlight of one element with respect to everything else . So " hypotenuse " , you profiled this guy against the background of the {pause} right t right triangle .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: OK . And the second use , um , is in FrameNet. It 's slightly different . Oh , I was asking Hans about this . They use it to really mean , um , this {disfmarker} in a frame th this is {disfmarker} the profiles on the {disfmarker} these are the ones that are required . So they have to be there or expressed in some way . Which {disfmarker} which {disfmarker} I 'm not saying one and two are mutually exclusive but they 're {disfmarker} they 're different meanings .
Professor C: Right .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: So the closest thing {disfmarker} so I was thinking about how it relates to this notation . For us , um {disfmarker} OK , so how is it {disfmarker}
Professor C: Does that {disfmarker} Is that really what they mean in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker}
Grad F: so " designate " {disfmarker} FrameNet ?
Professor C: I didn't know that .
Grad F: FrameNet ? Yeah , yeah . I {disfmarker} I mean , I {disfmarker} I was a little bit surprised about it too .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad F: I knew that {disfmarker} I thought that that would be something like {disfmarker} there 's another term that I 've heard for that thing
Professor C: Right , OK .
Grad F: but they {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} uh , well , at least Hans says they use it that way . And {disfmarker}
Professor C: Well , I 'll check .
Grad F: and may maybe he 's wrong . Anyway , so I think the {disfmarker} the " designate " that we have in terms of meaning is really the " highlight this thing with respect to everything else " . OK ?
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: So this is what {disfmarker} what it means . But the second one seems to be useful but we might not need a notation for it ? We don't have a notation for it but we might want one . So for example we 've talked about if you 're talking about the lexical item " walk " , you know it 's an action . Well , it also has this idea {disfmarker} it carries along with it the idea of an actor or somebody 's gonna do the walking . Or if you talk about an adjective " red " , it carries along the idea of the thing that has the property of having color red . So we used to use the notation " with " for this
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: and I think that 's closest to their second one . So I d don't yet know , I have no commitment , as to whether we need it . It might be {disfmarker} it 's the kind of thing that w a parser might want to think about whether we require {disfmarker} you know , these things are like it 's semantically part of it {disfmarker}
Professor C: N no , no . Well , uh , th critically they 're not required syntactically . Often they 're pres presu presupposed and all that sort of stuff .
Grad F: Right . Right , right . Yeah , um , definitely . So , um , " in " was a good example . If you walk " in " , like well , in what ?
Professor C: Right , there 's {disfmarker}
Grad F: You know , like you have to have the {disfmarker} {comment} So {disfmarker} so it 's only semantically is it {disfmarker} it is still required , say , by simulation time though
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: to have something . So it 's that {disfmarker} I meant the idea of like that {disfmarker} the semantic value is filled in by sim simulation . I don't know if that 's something we need to spa to {disfmarker} to like say ever as part of the requirement ? {disfmarker} or the construction ? or not . We 'll {disfmarker} we 'll again defer .
Professor C: Or {disfmarker} I mean , or {disfmarker} or , uh so the {disfmarker}
Grad F: Have it construed ,
Professor C: Yeah , yeah .
Grad F: is that the idea ? Just point at Robert . Whenever I 'm confused just point to him .
Professor C: Right . It 's {disfmarker} it 's his thesis , right ?
Grad F: You tell me .
Professor C: Anyway ,
Grad F: OK .
Professor C: right , yeah , w this is gonna be a b you 're right , this is a bit of in a mess and we still have emphasis as well , or stress , or whatever .
Grad F: OK , well we 'll get , uh uh , I {disfmarker} we have thoughts about those as well .
Professor C: Yeah . Great .
Grad F: Um , the I w I would just s some of this is just like my {disfmarker} you know , by fiat . I 'm going to say , this is how we use these terms . I don't - you know , there 's lots of different ways in the world that people use it .
Professor C: I {disfmarker} that 's fine .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: I think that , um , the other terms that are related are like focus and stress .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: So , s I think that the way I {disfmarker} we would like to think , uh , I think is focus is something that comes up in , I mean , lots of {disfmarker} basically this is the information structure .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: OK , it 's like {disfmarker} uh , it 's not {disfmarker} it might be that there 's a syntactic , uh , device that you use to indicate focus or that there are things like , you know , I think Keith was telling me , {comment} things toward the end of the sentence , post - verbal , tend to be the focused {disfmarker} focused element ,
Grad E: Mmm .
Grad F: the new information . You know , if I {disfmarker} " I walked into the room " , you {disfmarker} tend to think that , whatever , " into the room " is sort of like the more focused kind of thing .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Grad F: And when you , uh , uh , you have stress on something that might be , you know , a cue that the stressed element , or for instance , the negated element is kind of related to information structure . So that 's like the new {disfmarker} the sort of like import or whatever of {disfmarker} of this thing . Uh , so {disfmarker} so I think that 's kind of nice to keep " focus " being an information structure term . " Stress " {disfmarker} I th and then there are different kinds of focus that you can bring to it . So , um , like " stress " , th stress is kind of a pun on {disfmarker} you might have like {disfmarker} whatever , like , um , accent kind of stress .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: And that 's just a {disfmarker} uh , w we 'll want to distinguish stress as a form device . You know , like , oh , high volume or whatever .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: Um , t uh , and distinguish that from it 's effect which is , " Oh , the kind of focus we have is we 're emphasizing this value often as opposed to other values " , right ? So focus carries along a scope . Like if you 're gonna focus on this thing and you wanna know {disfmarker} it sort of evokes all the other possibilities that it wasn't .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Um , so my classic {disfmarker} my now - classic example of saying , " Oh , he did go to the meeting ? " ,
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: that was my way of saying {disfmarker} as opposed to , you know , " Oh , he didn't g " or " There was a meeting ? "
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: I think that was the example that was caught on by the linguists immediately .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: And so , um , the {disfmarker} like if you said he {disfmarker} you know , there 's all these different things that if you put stress on a different part of it then you 're , c focusing , whatever , on , uh {disfmarker}
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: " he walked to the meeting " as opposed to " he ran " , or " he did walk to the meeting " as opposed to " he didn't walk " . You know ,
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: so we need to have a notation for that which , um , I think that 's still in progress . So , sort of I 'm still working it out . But it did {disfmarker} one {disfmarker} one implication it does f have for the other side , which we 'll get to in a minute is that I couldn't think of a good way to say " here are the possible things that you could focus on " , cuz it seems like any entity in any sentence , you know , or any meaning component of anyth you know {disfmarker} all the possible meanings you could have , any of them could be the subject of focus .
Professor C: Mmm .
Grad F: But I think one {disfmarker} the one thing you can schematize is the kind of focus , right ? So for instance , you could say it 's the {disfmarker} the tense on this as opposed to , um , the {disfmarker} the action . OK . Or it 's {disfmarker} uh , it 's an identity thing or a contrast with other things , or stress this value as opposed to other things . So , um , it 's {disfmarker} it is kind of like a profile {disfmarker} profile - background thing but I {disfmarker} I can't think of like the limited set of possible meanings that you would {disfmarker} that you would focu
Grad E: Light up with focus , yeah .
Grad F: light {disfmarker} highlight as opposed to other ones . So it has some certain complications for the , uh , uh {disfmarker} later on . Li - I mean , uh , the best thing I can come up with is that information has a list of focused elements . For instance , you {disfmarker} Oh , one other type that I forgot to mention is like query elements and that 's probably relevant for the like " where is " , you know , " the castle " kind of thing ?
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Because you might want to say that , um , location or cert certain WH words bring {disfmarker} you know , sort of automatically focus in a , you know , " I don't know the identity of this thing " kind of way on certain elements . So . OK . Anyway . So that 's onl there are {disfmarker} there are many more things that are uncl that are sort of like a little bit unstable about the notation but it 's most {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} this is , you know , the current {disfmarker} current form . Other things we didn't {vocalsound} totally deal with , um ,
Grad E: Oh , there 's a bunch .
Grad F: well , we 've had a lot of other stuff that Keith and I have them working on in terms of like how you deal with like an adjective .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: You know , a {disfmarker} a nominal expression .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: And , um , I mean , we should have put an example of this and we could do that later .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: But I think the not inherently like the general principles still work though , that , um , we can have constructions that have sort of constituent structure in that there is like , you know , for instance , one {disfmarker} Uh , you know , they {disfmarker} they have constituents , right ? So you can like nest things when you need to , but they can also overlap in a sort of flatter way . So if you don't have like a lot of grammar experience , then like this {disfmarker} this might , you know , be a little o opaque . But , you know , we have the {pause} properties of dependency grammars and some properties of constituents {disfmarker} constituent - based grammar . So that 's {disfmarker} I think that 's sort of the main thing we wanted to aim for
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: and so far it 's worked out OK .
Professor C: Good .
Grad F: So . OK .
Grad A: I can say two things about the f
Grad F: Yes .
Grad A: Maybe you want to forget stress . This {disfmarker} my f
Grad F: As a word ?
Grad A: No , as {disfmarker} as {disfmarker} Just don't {disfmarker} don't think about it .
Grad F: As a {disfmarker} What 's that ?
Grad A: If {disfmarker}
Grad F: Sorry .
Grad A: canonically speaking you can {disfmarker} if you look at a {disfmarker} a curve over sentence , you can find out where a certain stress is and say , " hey , that 's my focus exponent . "
Grad E: Right .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: It doesn't tell you anything what the focus is . If it 's just that thing ,
Grad F: Mm - hmm . Or the constituent that it falls in .
Grad A: a little bit more or the whole phrase .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Um {disfmarker}
Grad F: You mean t forget about stress , the form cue ?
Grad A: The form bit
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad A: because , uh , as a form cue , um , not even trained experts can always {disfmarker} well , they can tell you where the focus exponent is sometimes .
Grad F: OK .
Grad A: And that 's also mostly true for read speech . In {disfmarker} in real speech , um , people may put stress . It 's so d context dependent on what was there before , phrase ba breaks , um , restarts .
Grad F: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Grad A: It 's just , um {disfmarker} it 's absurd . It 's complicated .
Grad F: OK ,
Grad A: And all {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah , I mean , I {disfmarker} I 'm sort of inclined to say let 's worry about specifying the information structure focus of the sentence
Grad F: I believe you , yeah .
Grad E: and then ,
Grad F: Mm - hmm . Ways that you can get it come from th
Grad E: hhh , {comment} the phonology component can handle actually assigning an intonation contour to that .
Grad F: right .
Grad E: You know , I mean , later on we 'll worry about exactly how {disfmarker}
Grad A: Or {disfmarker} or map from the contour to {disfmarker} to what the focus exponent is .
Grad E: y Yeah . Exactly .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: But figure out how the {disfmarker}
Grad A: But , uh , if you don't know what you 're {disfmarker} what you 're focus is then you 're {disfmarker} you 're hopeless - uh - ly lost anyways ,
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: Right . That 's fine , yeah . Mm - hmm .
Grad A: and the only way of figuring out what that is , {vocalsound} is , um , by sort of generating all the possible alternatives to each focused element , decide which one in that context makes sense and which one doesn't .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: And then you 're left with a couple three . So , you know , again , that 's something that h humans can do ,
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: um , but far outside the scope of {disfmarker} of any {disfmarker} anything . So . You know . It 's {disfmarker}
Grad F: OK . Well , uh , yeah , I wouldn't have assumed that it 's an easy problem in {disfmarker} in absence of all the oth
Grad A: u u
Grad F: you need all the other information I guess .
Grad A: But it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} what it {disfmarker} uh , it 's pretty easy to put it in the formalism , though . I mean , because
Grad F: Yeah .
Grad A: you can just say whatever stuff , " i is the container being focused or the {disfmarker} the entire whatever , both , and so forth . "
Grad F: Mm - hmm , mm - hmm .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Yeah . Exactly . So the sort of effect of it is something we want to be able to capture .
Professor C: Yeah , so b b but I think the poi I 'm not sure I understand but here 's what I th think is going on . That if we do the constructions right when a particular construction matches , it {disfmarker} the fact that it matches , does in fact specify the focus .
Grad F: W uh , I 'm not sure about that .
Professor C: OK .
Grad F: Or it might limit {disfmarker} it cert certainly constrains the possibilities of focus .
Professor C: Uh {disfmarker} k uh , at at the very least it constrai
Grad F: I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's , th that 's certainly true . And depending on the construction it may or may not f specify the focus , right ?
Professor C: Oh , uh , for sure , yes . There are constrai yeah , it 's not every {disfmarker} but there are constructions , uh , where you t explicitly take into account those considerations
Grad F: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor C: that you need to take into account in order to decide which {disfmarker} what is being focused .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Mm - hmm . So we talked about that a little bit this morning . " John is on the bus , not Nancy . "
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: So that 's {disfmarker} focuses on John .
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: Hmm .
Grad A: " John is on the bus and not on the train . "
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: " John is on the bus " versus " John is on the train . "
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: Right .
Grad A: And " John is on the bus " versus " was " , and e
Grad F: Is on . " John is on the bus " . Yeah . Yeah .
Grad A: " it 's the bu " so e
Professor C: Right . Yeah , all {disfmarker} all of those .
Grad A: All of these
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad F: Right .
Grad A: and will we have {disfmarker} u is it all the same constructions ? Just with a different foc focus constituent ?
Grad F: Yeah , I would say that argument structure in terms of like the main like sort of ,
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: I don't know {disfmarker} the fact that you can get it without any stress and you have some {disfmarker} whatever is predicated anyway should be the same set of constructions . So that 's why I was talking about overlapping constructions . So , then you have a separate thing that picks out , you know , stress on something relative to everything else .
Professor C: Yeah . So , the question is actually {disfmarker}
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: oh , I 'm sorry ,
Grad F: And it would {disfmarker}
Professor C: go ahead ,
Grad F: yeah ,
Professor C: finish .
Grad F: and it w and that would have to {disfmarker} uh it might be ambiguous as , uh , whether it picks up that element , or the phrase , or something like that . But it 's still is limited possibility .
Grad A: Hmm .
Grad F: So that should , you know , interact with {disfmarker} it should overlap with whatever other construction is there .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: S s the question is , do we have a way on the other page , uh , when we get to the s semantic side , of saying what the stressed element was , or stressed phrase , or something .
Grad F: Mm - hmm . Well , so that 's why I was saying how {disfmarker} since I couldn't think of an easy like limited way of doing it , um , all I can say is that information structure has a focused slot
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: and I think that should be able to refer to {disfmarker}
Professor C: So that 's down at the bottom here when we get over there . OK .
Grad F: Yeah , and , infer {disfmarker} and I don't have {disfmarker} I don't have a great way or great examples
Professor C: I 'll - I 'll wait . OK .
Grad F: but I think that {disfmarker} something like that is probably gonna be , uh , more {disfmarker} more what we have to do .
Grad A: Hmm .
Professor C: OK .
Grad F: But , um ,
Grad A: So
Grad F: OK , that was one comment . And you had another one ?
Grad A: Yeah , well the {disfmarker} once you know what the focus is the {disfmarker} everything else is background . How about " topic - comment " that 's the other side of information .
Grad F: How about what ?
Grad A: Topic - comment .
Grad F: Yeah , so that was the other thing . And so I didn't realize it before . It 's like , " oh ! " It was an epiphany that it {disfmarker} you know , topic and focus are a contrast set . So topic is {disfmarker} Topic - focused seems to me like , um , background profile , OK , or a landmark trajector , or some something like that . There 's {disfmarker} there 's definitely , um , that kind of thing going on .
Grad A: Mmm .
Grad F: Now I don't know whether {disfmarker} I n I don't have as many great examples of like topic - indicating constructions on like focus , right ? Um , topic {disfmarker} it seems kind of {disfmarker} you know , I think that might be an ongoing kind of thing .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Japanese has this though . You know .
Grad F: Topic marker ?
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad E: Yeah , that 's what " wa " is , uh , just to mark which thing is the topic .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: It doesn't always have to be the subject .
Grad F: Mm - hmm . Right . So again , information structure has a topic slot . And , you know , I stuck it in thinking that we might use it .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Um , I think I stuck it in .
Professor C: Yep , it 's there .
Grad F: Um , and one thing that I didn't do consistently , um , is {disfmarker} when we get there , is like indicate what kind of thing fits into every role . I think I have an idea of what it should be but th you know , so far we 've been getting away with like either a type constraint or , um , you know , whatever . I forg it 'll be a frame . You know , it 'll be {disfmarker} it 'll be another predication or it 'll be , um , I don't know , some value from {disfmarker} from some something , some variable and scope or something like that , or a slot chain based on a variable and scope . OK , so well that 's {disfmarker} should we flip over to the other side officially then ?
Grad A: Mm - hmm , hmm .
Grad E: OK , side one .
Grad F: I keep , uh , like , pointing forward to it . Yeah . Now we 'll go back to s OK , so this doesn't include something which mi mi may have some effect on {disfmarker} on it , which is , um , the discourse situation context record , right ? So I didn't {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I meant just like draw a line and like , you know , you also have , uh , some tracking of what was going on .
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: And sort of {disfmarker} this is a big scale comment before I , you know , look into the details of this . But for instance you could imagine instead of having {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I changed the name of {disfmarker} um it used to be " entities " . So you see it 's " scenario " , " referent " and " discourse segment " . And " scenario " is essentially what kind of {disfmarker} what 's the basic predication , what event happened . And actually it 's just a list of various slots from which you would draw {disfmarker} draw in order to paint your picture , a bunch of frames , bi and bindings , right ? Um , and obviously there are other ones that are not included here , general cultural frames and general like , uh , other action f
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: you know , specific X - schema frames . OK , whatever . The middle thing used to be " entities " because you could imagine it should be like really a list where here was various information . And this is intended to be grammatically specifiable information about a referent {disfmarker} uh , you know , about some entity that you were going to talk about . So " Harry walked into the room " , " Harry " and " room " , you know , the room {disfmarker} th but they would be represented in this list somehow . And it could also have for instance , it has this category slot . Um , it should be either category or in or instance . Basically , it could be a pointer to ontology . So that everything you know about this could be {disfmarker} could be drawn in . But the important things for grammatical purposes are for {disfmarker} things like number , gender , um {disfmarker} ki the ones I included here are slightly arbitrary but you could imagine that , um , you need to figure out wheth if it 's a group whether , um , some event is happening , linear time , linear spaces , like , you know , are {disfmarker} are they doing something serially or is it like , um , uh I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm not sure . Because this partly came from , uh , Talmy 's schema and I 'm not sure we 'll need all of these actually . But {disfmarker} Um , and then the " status " I used was like , again , in some languages , you know , like for instance in child language you might distinguish between different status . So , th the {disfmarker} the big com and {disfmarker} and finally " discourse segment " is about {vocalsound} sort of speech - act - y information structure - y , like utterance - specific kinds of things . So the comment I was going to make about , um , changing entity {disfmarker} the entity 's block to reference is that {vocalsound} you can imagine your discourse like situation context , you have a set of entities that you 're sort of referring to . And you might {disfmarker} that might be sort of a general , I don't know , database of all the things in this discourse that you could refer to . And I changed to " reference " cuz I would say , for a particular utterance you have particular referring expressions in it . And those are the ones that you get information about that you stick in here . For instance , I know it 's going to be plural . I know it 's gonna be feminine or something like that . And {disfmarker} and these could actually just point to , you know , the {disfmarker} the ID in my other list of enti active entities , right ? So , um , uh , th there 's {disfmarker} there 's all this stuff about discourse status . We 've talked about . I almost listed " discourse status " as a slot where you could say it 's active . You know , there 's this , um , hierarchy {disfmarker} uh there 's a schematization of , you know , things can be active or they can be , um , accessible , inaccessible .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: It was the one that , you know , Keith , um , emailed to us once , to some of us , not all of us . And the thing is that that {disfmarker} I noticed that that , um , list was sort of discourse dependent . It was like in this particular set , s you know , instance , it has been referred to recently or it hasn't been ,
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: or this is something that 's like in my world knowledge but not active .
Professor C: This {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} yeah , well there {disfmarker} there seems to be context properties .
Grad F: So .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad F: Yeah , they 're contex and for instance , I used to have a location thing there but actually that 's a property of the situation . And it 's again , time , you know {disfmarker} at cert certain points things are located , you know , near or far from you
Professor C: Well , uh , uh , this is recursive
Grad F: and {disfmarker}
Professor C: cuz until we do the uh , mental space story , we 're not quite sure {disfmarker} {comment} Th - th
Grad F: Yeah .
Professor C: which is fine . We 'll just {disfmarker} we 'll j
Grad F: Yeah , yeah . So some of these are , uh {disfmarker}
Professor C: we just don't know yet .
Grad F: Right . So I {disfmarker} so for now I thought , well maybe I 'll just have in this list the things that are relevant to this particular utterance , right ? Everything else here is utterance - specific . Um , and I left the slot , " predications " , open because you can have , um , things like " the guy I know from school " .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Or , you know , like your referring expression might be constrained by certain like unbounded na amounts of prep you know , predications that you might make . And it 's unclear whether {disfmarker} I mean , you could just have in your scenario , " here are some extra few things that are true " , right ?
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: And then you could just sort of not have this slot here . Right ? You 're {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but it 's used for identification purposes .
Professor C: Right .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: So it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little bit different from just saying " all these things are true from my utterance " .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: Um .
Grad E: Right , " this guy I know from school came for dinner " does not mean , um , " there 's a guy , I know him from school , and he came over for dinner " . That 's not the same effect .
Grad F: Yeah , it 's a little bit {disfmarker} it 's a little bit different . Right ? So {disfmarker} Or maybe that 's like a restrictive , non - restrictive {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: you know , it 's like it gets into that kind of thing for {disfmarker} um , but maybe I 'm mixing , you know {disfmarker} this is kind of like the final result after parsing the sentence .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: So you might imagine that the information you pass to , you know {disfmarker} in identifying a particular referent would be , " oh , some {disfmarker} " you know , " it 's a guy and it 's someone I know from school " .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: So maybe that would , you know , be some intermediate structure that you would pass into the disc to the , whatever , construal engine or whatever , discourse context , to find {disfmarker} you know , either create this reference ,
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: in which case it 'd be created here , and {disfmarker} you know , so {disfmarker} so you could imagine that this might not {disfmarker} So , uh , I 'm uncommitted to a couple of these things .
Grad A: But {disfmarker} to make it m precise at least in my mind , uh , it 's not precise .
Grad F: Um .
Grad A: So " house " is gender neuter ? In reality
Grad F: Um , it could be in {disfmarker}
Grad A: or in {disfmarker}
Professor C: Semantically .
Grad A: semantically .
Grad F: semantically , yeah . Yeah .
Grad A: So {disfmarker}
Grad F: So it uh , uh , a table . You know , a thing that c doesn't have a gender . So . Uh , it could be that {disfmarker} I mean , maybe you 'd {disfmarker} maybe not all these {disfmarker} I mean , I wou I would say that I tried to keep slots here that were potentially relevant to most {disfmarker} most things .
Grad A: No , just to make sure that we {disfmarker} everybody that 's {disfmarker} completely agreed that it {disfmarker} it has nothing to do with , uh , form .
Grad F: Yeah . OK , that is semantic as opposed to {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah . That 's right . Um .
Grad A: Then " predications " makes sense to {disfmarker} to have it open for something like , uh , accessibility or not .
Grad F: S so again {disfmarker} Open to various things .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad F: Right . OK , so . Let 's see . So maybe having made that big sca sort of like large scale comment , should I just go through each of these slots {disfmarker} uh , each of these blocks , um , a little bit ?
Grad E: Sure .
Grad F: Um , mostly the top one is sort of image schematic . And just a note , which was that , um {disfmarker} s so when we actually ha so for instance , um , some of them seem more inherently static , OK , like a container or sort of support - ish . And others are a little bit seemingly inherently dynamic like " source , path , goal " is often thought of that way or " force " , or something like that . But in actual fact , I think that they 're intended to be sort of neutral with respect to that . And different X - schemas use them in a way that 's either static or dynamic . So " path " , you could just be talking about the path between this and this .
Grad E: Mmm .
Grad F: And you know , " container " that you can go in and out . All of these things . And so , um , I think this came up when , uh , Ben and I were working with the Spaniards , um , the other day {disfmarker} the " Spaniettes " , as we {vocalsound} called them {disfmarker} um , to decide like how you want to split up , like , s image schematic contributions versus , like , X - schematic contributions . How do you link them up . And I think again , um , it 's gonna be something in the X - schema that tells you " is this static or is this dynamic " . So we definitely need {disfmarker} that sort of aspectual type gives you some of that . Um , that , you know , is it , uh , a state or is it a change of state , or is it a , um , action of some kind ?
Grad A: Uh , i i i is there any meaning to when you have sort of parameters behind it and when you don't ?
Grad F: Uh . Yeah .
Grad A: Just means {disfmarker}
Grad F: Oh , oh ! You mean , in the slot ?
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Um , no , it 's like X - sc it 's {disfmarker} it 's like I was thinking of type constraints but X - schema , well it obviously has to be an X - schema . " Agent " , I mean , the {disfmarker} the performer of the X - schema , that s depends on the X - schema . You know , and I {disfmarker} in general it would probably be , you know {disfmarker}
Grad E: So the difference is basically whether you thought it was obvious what the possible fillers were .
Grad F: Yeah , basically .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: OK .
Grad F: Um , " aspectual type " probably isn't obvious but I should have {disfmarker} So , I just neglected to stick something in . " Perspective " , " actor " , " undergoer " , " observer " , um ,
Grad B: Mmm .
Grad F: I think we 've often used " agent " , " patient " , obser
Grad E: " Whee ! " That 's that one , right ?
Grad F: Yeah , exactly . {vocalsound} Exactly . Um , and so one nice thing that , uh , we had talked about is this example {comment} of like , if you have a passive construction then one thing it does is ch you know {disfmarker} definitely , it is one way to {disfmarker} for you to , you know , specifically take the perspective of the undergoing kind of object . And so then we talked about , you know , whether well , does that specify topic as well ? Well , maybe there are other things . You know , now that it 's {disfmarker} subject is more like a topic . And now that , you know {disfmarker} Anyway . So . Sorry . I 'm gonna trail off on that one cuz it 's not that f important right now .
Professor C: N now , for the moment we just need the ability to l l write it down if {disfmarker} if somebody figured out what the rules were .
Grad F: Um , To know how {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah . Exactly .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad F: Um , some of these other ones , let 's see . So , uh , one thing I 'm uncertain about is how polarity interacts .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: So polarity , uh , is using for like action did not take place for instance . So by default it 'll be like " true " , I guess , you know , if you 're specifying events that did happen . You could imagine that you skip out this {disfmarker} you know , leave off this polarity , you know , not {disfmarker} don't have it here . And then have it part of the speech - act in some way .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: There 's some negation . But the reason why I left it in is cuz you might have a change of state , let 's say , where some state holds and then some state doesn't hold , and you 're just talking , you know {disfmarker} if you 're trying to have the nuts and bolts of simulation you need to know that , you know , whatever , the holder doesn't and {disfmarker}
Professor C: No , I th I think at this lev which is {disfmarker} it should be where you have it .
Grad F: OK , it 's {disfmarker} so it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's fine where it is .
Professor C: I mean , how you get it may {disfmarker} may in will often involve the discourse
Grad F: So , OK . May come from a few places .
Professor C: but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} by the time you 're simulating you sh y you should know that .
Grad F: Right . Right .
Grad E: So , {vocalsound} I 'm still just really not clear on what I 'm looking at . The " scenario " box , like , what does that look like for an example ? Like , not all of these things are gonna be here .
Grad F: Yeah .
Professor C: Correct .
Grad E: This is just basically says
Grad F: Mm - hmm . It 's a grab bag of {disfmarker}
Grad E: " part of what I 'm going to hand you is a whole bunch of s uh , schemas , image , and X - schemas . Here are some examples of the sorts of things you might have in there " .
Grad F: So that 's exactly what it is .
Grad E: OK .
Grad F: And for a particular instance which I will , you know , make an example of something , is that you might have an instance of container and path , let 's say , as part of your , you know , " into " you know , definition .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad F: So you would eventually have instances filled in with various {disfmarker} various values for all the different slots .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: And they 're bound up in , you know , their bindings and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and values .
Professor C: W it c
Grad E: OK . Do you have to say about the binding in your {disfmarker} is there a slot in here for {disfmarker} that tells you how the bindings are done ?
Professor C: No , no , no . I {disfmarker} let 's see , I think we 're {disfmarker} we 're not {disfmarker} I don't think we have it quite right yet . So , uh , what this is ,
Grad E: OK .
Professor C: let 's suppose for the moment it 's complete . OK , uh , then this says that when an analysis is finished , the whole analysis is finished , {comment} you 'll have as a result , uh , some s resulting s semspec for that utterance in context ,
Grad E: OK . Mm - hmm .
Professor C: which is made up entirely of these things and , uh , bindings among them . And bindings to ontology items .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: So that {disfmarker} that the who that this is the tool kit under whi out of which you can make a semantic specification .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor C: So that 's A . But B , which is more relevant to your life , is this is also the tool kit that is used in the semantic side of constructions .
Grad E: OK . Mm - hmm .
Professor C: So this is an that anything you have , in the party line , {comment} anything you have as the semantic side of constructions comes , from pieces of this {disfmarker} ignoring li
Grad E: OK .
Professor C: I mean , in general , you ignore lots of it .
Grad E: Right .
Professor C: But it 's got to be pieces of this along with constraints among them .
Grad E: OK .
Professor C: Uh , so that the , you know , goal of the , uh uh , " source , path , goal " has to be the landmark of the conta you know , the interior of this container .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Or whate whatever .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: So those constraints appear in constructions
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: but pretty much this is the full range of semantic structures available to you .
Grad E: OK .
Grad F: Except for " cause " , that I forgot . But anyway , there 's som some kind of causal structure for composite events .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: OK , good . Let 's {disfmarker} let 's mark that . So we need a c
Grad F: Uh , I mean , so it gets a little funny . These are all {disfmarker} so far these structures , especially from " path " and on down , these are sort of relatively familiar , um , image schematic kind of slots . Now with " cause " , uh , the fillers will actually be themselves frames . Right ?
Professor C: Right .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: So you 'll say , " event one causes event B {disfmarker}
Professor C: And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this again may ge our , um {disfmarker} and we {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and , of course , worlds .
Grad F: uh , event two " , and {disfmarker}
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Yeah . So that 's , uh these are all implicitly one {disfmarker} within , uh within one world . Um , even though saying that place takes place , whatever . Uh , if y if I said " time " is , you know , " past " , that would say " set that this world " , you know , " somewhere , before the world that corresponds to our current speech time " .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Grad F: So . But that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's sort of OK . The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} within the event it 's st it 's still one world . Um . Yeah , so " cause " and {disfmarker} Other frames that could come in {disfmarker} I mean , unfortunately you could bring in say for instance , um , uh , " desire " or something like that ,
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: like " want " . And actually there is right now under " discourse segments " , um , " attitude " ?
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: " Volition " ? could fill that . So there are a couple things where I like , " oh , I 'm not sure if I wanted to have it there
Grad E: Well that 's {disfmarker}
Grad F: or {disfmarker} " Basically there was a whole list of {disfmarker} of possible speaker attitudes that like say Talmy listed . And , like , well , I don't {disfmarker} you know , it was like " hope , wish . desire " ,
Professor C: Right .
Grad E: Uh - huh .
Grad F: blah - blah - blah . And it 's like , well , I feel like if I wanted to have an extra meaning {disfmarker} I don't know if those are grammatically marked in the first place . So {disfmarker} They 're more lexically marked , right ?
Grad E: Mmm .
Grad F: At least in English . So if I wanted to I would stick in an extra frame in my meaning , saying , e so th it 'd be a hierarchical frame them , right ? You know , like " Naomi wants {disfmarker} wants su a certain situation and that situation itself is a state of affairs " .
Professor C: S right . So {disfmarker} so , " want " itself can be {disfmarker} {pause} i i i i i
Grad F: u Can be just another frame that 's part of your {disfmarker}
Professor C: Well , and it i basically it 's an action . In {disfmarker} in our s in our {disfmarker} in our {disfmarker}
Grad F: Yeah . Situation . {comment} Right , right .
Professor C: in {disfmarker} in our {disfmarker} in our s terminology , " want " can be an action and " what you want " is a world .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: Hmm .
Professor C: So that 's {disfmarker} I mean , it 's certainly one way to do it .
Grad F: Mmm .
Professor C: Yeah , there {disfmarker} there are other things .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Causal stuff we absolutely need . Mental space we need .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: The context we need . Um , so anyway , Keith {disfmarker} So is this comfortable to you that , uh , once we have this defined , it is your tool kit for building the semantic part of constructions .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And then when we combine constructions semantically , the goal is going to be to fill out more and more of the bindings needed in order to come up with the final one .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And that 's the wh and {disfmarker} and I mean , that {disfmarker} according to the party line , that 's the whole story .
Grad E: Yeah . Mm - hmm . Yeah . Um . y Right . That makes sense . So I mean , there 's this stuff in the {disfmarker} off in the scenario , which just tells you how various {disfmarker} what schemas you 're using and they 're {disfmarker} how they 're bound together . And I guess that some of the discourse segment stuff {disfmarker} is that where you would sa
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: I mean , that 's {disfmarker} OK , that 's where the information structure is which sort of is a kind of profiling on different parts of , um , of this .
Grad F: Right . Exactly .
Grad E: I mean , what 's interesting is that the information structure stuff {disfmarker} Hmm . There 's almost {disfmarker} I mean , we keep coming back to how focus is like this {disfmarker} this , uh , trajector - landmark thing .
Grad F: Yeah .
Grad E: So if I say , um , You know , " In France it 's like this " . You know , great , we 've learned something about France but the fact is that utterances of that sort are generally used to help you draw a conclusion also about some implicit contrast , like " In France it 's like this " . And therefore you 're supposed to say , " Boy , life sure {disfmarker} "
Grad F: Right .
Grad E: You know , " in France kids are allowed to drink at age three " . And w you 're {disfmarker} that 's not just a fact about France . You also conclude something about how boring it is here in the U S . Right ?
Grad F: Right , right .
Professor C: Right .
Grad E: And so {disfmarker}
Grad F: S so I would prefer not to worry about that for right now
Grad E: OK .
Grad F: and to think that there are , um ,
Grad E: That comes in and , uh {disfmarker}
Grad F: discourse level constructions in a sense , topic {disfmarker} topic - focus constructions that would say , " oh , when you focus something " then {disfmarker}
Grad E: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Grad F: just done the same way {disfmarker} just actually in the same way as the lower level . If you stressed , you know , " John went to the {disfmarker} " , you know , " the bar " whatever , you 're focusing that
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: and a in a possible inference is " in contrast to other things " .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: So similarly for a whole sentence , you know , " in France such - and - such happens " .
Grad E: Yeah . Yeah , yeah .
Grad F: So the whole thing is sort of like again implicitly as opposed to other things that are possible .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad A: Uh , just {disfmarker} just , uh , look {disfmarker} read uh even sem semi formal Mats Rooth .
Grad F: I mean {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad A: If you haven't read it . It 's nice .
Grad F: Uh - huh .
Grad A: And just pick any paper on alternative semantics .
Grad F: Uh - huh .
Grad E: OK .
Grad A: So that 's his {disfmarker} that 's the best way of talking about focus , is I think his way .
Grad E: OK , what was the name ?
Grad A: Mats . MATS . Rooth .
Grad E: OK .
Grad A: I think two O 's , yes , TH .
Grad E: OK .
Grad A: I never know how to pronounce his name because he 's sort of ,
Professor C: S Swede ?
Grad A: uh , he is Dutch
Professor C: Dutch ?
Grad A: and , um {disfmarker} but very confused background I think .
Professor C: Oh , Dutch .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: Uh - huh .
Grad A: So {pause} and , um ,
Grad E: Mats Gould .
Grad A: And sadly enough he also just left the IMS in Stuttgart . So he 's not there anymore .
Grad E: Hmm .
Grad A: But , um {disfmarker} I don't know where he is right now but alternative semantics is {disfmarker} if you type that into an , uh , uh , browser or search engine you 'll get tons of stuff .
Grad E: OK . OK . OK , thanks .
Grad A: And what I 'm kind of confused about is {disfmarker} is what the speaker and the hearer is {disfmarker} is sort of doing there .
Grad F: So for a particular segment it 's really just a reference to some other entity again in the situation , right ? So for a particular segment the speaker might be you or might be me .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad F: Um , hearer is a little bit harder . It could be like multiple people . I guess that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's not very clear from here {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah , but you {disfmarker} Don't we ultimately want to handle that analogously to the way we handle time and place ,
Grad F: I mean , that 's not allowed here .
Grad A: because " you " , " me " , " he " , " they " , you know , " these guys " , all these expressions , nuh , are in {disfmarker} in much the same way contextually dependent as " here , " and " now , " and " there " {disfmarker}
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Now , this is {disfmarker} this is assuming you 've already solved that .
Grad F: Ye - yeah .
Professor C: So it 's {disfmarker} it 's Fred and Mary ,
Grad F: So th
Professor C: so the speaker would be Fred and the {disfmarker}
Grad A: Ah !
Grad F: Right , so the constructions might {disfmarker} of course will refer , using pronouns or whatever .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: In which case they have to check to see , uh , who the , uh , speaker in here wa in order to resolve those . But when you actually say that " he walked into {disfmarker} " , whatever , um , the " he " will refer to a particular {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you will already have figured who " he " or " you " , mmm , or " I " , maybe is a bett better example , who " I " refers to . Um , and then you 'd just be able to refer to Harry , you know , in wherever that person {disfmarker} whatever role that person was playing in the event .
Grad A: Mmm . That 's up at the reference part .
Grad F: Yeah , yeah .
Grad A: And down there in the speaker - hearer part ?
Grad F: S so , that 's {disfmarker} I think that 's just {disfmarker} n for instance , Speaker is known from the situation , right ? You 're {disfmarker} when you hear something you 're told who the speaker is {disfmarker} I mean , you know who the speaker is . In fact , that 's kind of constraining how {disfmarker} in some ways you know this before you get to the {disfmarker} you fill in all the rest of it . I think .
Professor C: Mmm .
Grad F: I mean , how else would you um {disfmarker}
Grad A: You know , uh , uh , it 's {disfmarker} the speaker may {disfmarker} in English is allowed to say " I . "
Professor C: Yeah . Well , here {disfmarker}
Grad A: Uh , among the twenty - five percent most used words .
Grad F: Yeah . Right .
Grad A: But wouldn't the " I " then set up the {disfmarker} the s s referent {disfmarker} that happens to be the speaker this time
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: and not " they , " whoever they are .
Grad F: Right , right .
Grad A: Or " you " {disfmarker}
Grad F: So {disfmarker}
Grad A: much like the " you " could n
Grad F: S so {disfmarker} OK , so I would say ref under referent should be something that corresponds to " I " . And maybe each referent should probably have a list of way whatever , the way it was referred to . So that 's " I " but , uh , uh , should we say it {disfmarker} it refers to , what ? Uh , if it were " Harry " it would refer to like some ontology thing . If it were {disfmarker} if it 's " I " it would refer to the current speaker , OK , which is given to be like , you know , whoever it is .
Grad A: Well , not {disfmarker} not always . I mean , so there 's " and then he said , I w " Uh - huh .
Professor C: Uh {disfmarker}
Grad F: " I " within the current world .
Grad A: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah . That 's right . So {disfmarker} so again , this {disfmarker} uh , this {disfmarker} this is gonna to get us into the mental space stuff
Grad F: Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .
Professor C: and t because you know , " Fred said that Mary said {disfmarker} " , and whatever .
Grad E: Mmm .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And {disfmarker} and so we 're , uh gonna have to , um , chain those as well .
Grad A: Mm - hmm . Twhhh - whhh . But {disfmarker}
Grad F: Mm - hmm . So this entire thing is inside a world ,
Professor C: Right . Right .
Grad F: not just like the top part .
Professor C: I {disfmarker} I think , uh {disfmarker}
Grad F: That 's {disfmarker}
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Except s it 's {disfmarker} it 's trickier than that because um , the reference for example {disfmarker} So he where it gets really tricky is there 's some things ,
Grad F: Yeah .
Professor C: and this is where blends and all terribl So , some things which really are meant to be identified and some things which aren't .
Grad F: Yeah . Right .
Professor C: And again , all we need for the moment is some way to say that .
Grad F: Right . So I thought of having like {disfmarker} for each referent , having the list of {disfmarker} of the things t with which it is identified . You know , which {disfmarker} which , uh you know , you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker}
Professor C: You could do that .
Grad F: for instance , um {disfmarker} So , I guess , it sort of depends on if it is a referring exp if it 's identifiable already or it 's a new thing .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: If it 's a new thing you 'd have to like create a structure or whatever . If it 's an old thing it could be referring to , um , usually w something in a situation , right ? Or something in ontology .
Professor C: uh - huh .
Grad F: So , there 's a you know , whatever , it c it could point at one of these .
Professor C: I just had a {disfmarker} I just had an {disfmarker} an idea that would be very nice if it works .
Grad F: For what ?
Professor C: Uh , uh , uh , I haven't told you what it is yet .
Grad F: If it works .
Professor C: This was my build - up .
Grad F: Mm - hmm . Mmm .
Professor C: An i an idea that would be nice i
Grad F: Yeah . OK , we 're crossing our fingers .
Professor C: Right .
Grad B: So we 're building a mental space , good .
Professor C: If it worked . Yeah .
Grad F: OK .
Professor C: Right , it was a space builder . Um , we might be able to handle context in the same way that we handle mental spaces because , uh , you have somewhat the same things going on of , uh , things being accessible or not .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And so , i
Grad F: Yep .
Professor C: it c it {disfmarker} it , uh I think if we did it right we might be able to get at least a lot of the same structure .
Grad F: Use the same {disfmarker} {comment} Yep .
Professor C: So that pulling something out of a discourse context is I think similar to other kinds of , uh , mental space phenomena .
Grad B: I see .
Grad F: Mm - hmm . And {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}
Professor C: Uh , I 've {disfmarker} I 've {disfmarker} I 've never seen anybody write that up but maybe they did . I don't know . That may be all over the literature .
Grad F: Yeah .
Grad E: There 's things like ther you know , there 's all kinds of stuff like , um , in {disfmarker} I think I mentioned last time in Czech if you have a {disfmarker} a verb of saying then
Grad F: So {disfmarker} so by default {disfmarker}
Grad E: um , you know , you say something like {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or I was thinking you can say something like , " oh , I thought , uh , you are a republican " or something like that . Where as in English you would say , " I thought you were " .
Professor C: Right .
Grad E: Um , you know , sort of the past tense being copied onto the lower verb doesn't happen there , so you have to say something about , you know , tense is determined relative to current blah - blah - blah .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Same things happens with pronouns .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: There 's languages where , um , if you have a verb of saying then , ehhh , where {disfmarker} OK , so a situation like " Bob said he was going to the movies " , where that lower subject is the same as the person who was saying or thinking , you 're actually required to have " I " there .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Um , and it 's sort of in an extended function {disfmarker}
Professor C: So we would have it be in quotes in English .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad B: Right .
Grad E: But it 's not perceived as a quotative construction .
Grad F: Right .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: I mean , it 's been analyzed by the formalists as being a logophoric pronoun , um which means a pronoun which refers back to the person who is speaking or that sort of thing , right ?
Professor C: OK .
Grad F: Oh , right . Yeah , that makes sense .
Grad E: Um , but {disfmarker} uh , that happens to sound like the word for " I " but is actually semantically unrelated to it .
Grad F: Oh , no !
Professor C: Oh , good , I love the formali
Grad E: Um ,
Grad F: Really ?
Grad E: Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .
Grad F: You 're kidding .
Grad E: There 's a whole book which basically operates on this assumption . Uh , Mary Dalrymple , uh , this book , a ninety - three book on , uh on pronoun stuff .
Grad F: No , that 's horrible . OK . That 's horrible . {comment} OK .
Grad E: Well , yeah . And then the same thing for ASL where , you know , you 're signing and someone says something . And then , you know , so " he say " , and then you sort of do a role shift . And then you sign " I , this , that , and the other " .
Grad F: Uh - huh .
Grad E: And you know , " I did this " . That 's also been analyzed as logophoric and having nothing to do with " I " . And the role shift thing is completely left out and so on . So , I mean , the point is that pronoun references , uh , you know , sort of ties in with all this mental space stuff and so on , and so forth .
Grad F: Uh - huh .
Grad E: And so , yeah , I mean {disfmarker}
Grad F: Yeah .
Professor C: So that {disfmarker} that d that does sound like it 's co consistent with what we 're saying , yeah .
Grad E: Right . Yeah .
Grad F: OK , so it 's kind of like the unspecified mental spaces just are occurring in context . And then when you embed them sometimes you have to pop up to the h you know , depending on the construction or the whatever , um , you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you 're scope is {disfmarker} m might extend out to the {disfmarker} the base one .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: It would be nice to actually use the same , um , mechanism since there are so many cases where you actually need it 'll be one or the other .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: It 's like , oh , actually , it 's the same {disfmarker} same operation .
Professor C: Oh , OK , so this {disfmarker} this is worth some thought .
Grad F: So .
Grad E: It 's like {disfmarker} it 's like what 's happening {disfmarker} that , yeah , what what 's happening , uh , there is that you 're moving the base space or something like that , right ?
Grad F: Yeah , yeah .
Grad E: So that 's {disfmarker} that 's how Fauconnier would talk about it . And it happens diff under different circumstances in different languages .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: And so ,
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: um , things like pronoun reference and tense which we 're thinking of as being these discourse - y things actually are relative to a Bayes space which can change .
Grad F: Mm - hmm ,
Grad E: And we need all the same machinery .
Grad F: right .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Robert .
Professor C: Well , but , uh , this is very good actually
Grad E: Schade .
Professor C: cuz it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} to the extent that it works , it y
Grad F: Ties it all into it .
Professor C: it {disfmarker} it ties together several of {disfmarker} of these things .
Grad F: Yeah . Yep .
Grad A: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . And I 'm sure gonna read the transcript of this one . So . But the , uh , {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But it 's too bad that we don't have a camera . You know , all the pointing is gonna be lost .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: Oh , yeah .
Grad B: Well every time Nancy giggles it means {disfmarker} it means that it 's your job .
Grad F: Yeah , that 's why I said " point to Robert " , {vocalsound} when I did it .
Grad A: Uh . Yeah . Mmm , isn't {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm {disfmarker} I was sort of dubious why {disfmarker} why he even introduces this sort of reality , you know , as your basic mental space and then builds up {disfmarker}
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: d doesn't start with some {disfmarker} because it 's so obvi it should be so obvious , at least it is to me , {comment} that whenever I say something I could preface that with " I think . " Nuh ?
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad A: So there should be no categorical difference between your base and all the others that ensue .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: No , but there 's {disfmarker} there 's a Gricean thing going on there , that when you say " I think " you 're actually hedging .
Grad E: Yeah , I mean {disfmarker}
Grad F: Mmm . It 's like I don't totally think {disfmarker}
Professor C: Right .
Grad E: Yeah . Y
Grad F: I mostly think , uh {disfmarker}
Grad A: Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} Absolutely .
Grad E: Yeah , it 's an {disfmarker} it 's an evidential . It 's sort of semi - grammaticalized . People have talked about it this way . And you know , you can do sort of special things . You can , th put just the phrase " I think " as a parenthetical in the middle of a sentence and so on , and so forth .
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad E: So {disfmarker}
Grad F: Actually one of the child language researchers who works with T Tomasello studied a bunch of these constructions and it was like it 's not using any kind of interesting embedded ways just to mark , you know , uncertainty or something like that .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: So .
Grad A: Yeah , but about linguistic hedges , I mean , those {disfmarker} those tend to be , um , funky anyways because they blur {disfmarker}
Professor C: So we don't have that in here either do we ?
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: Hedges ?
Professor C: Yeah , yeah .
Grad F: Hhh , {comment} I {disfmarker} there used to be a slot for speaker , um , it was something like factivity . I couldn't really remember what it meant
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: so I took it out .
Grad E: Um .
Grad F: But it 's something {disfmarker}
Grad E: Well we were just talking about this sort of evidentiality and stuff like that , right ?
Grad F: we {disfmarker} we were talking about sarcasm too , right ? Oh , oh .
Grad E: I mean ,
Grad F: Oh , yeah , yeah , right .
Grad E: that 's what I think is , um , sort of telling you what percent reality you should give this
Professor C: So we probably should .
Grad F: Yeah .
Grad A: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: or the , you know {disfmarker}
Professor C: Confidence or something like that .
Grad E: Yeah , and the fact that I 'm , you know {disfmarker} the fact maybe if I think it versus he thinks that might , you know , depending on how much you trust the two of us or whatever ,
Grad F: Yeah .
Grad A: Uh great word in the English language is called " about " .
Grad E: you know {disfmarker}
Grad A: If you study how people use that it 's also {disfmarker}
Grad F: What 's the word ?
Grad A: " about . " It 's about {disfmarker}
Professor C: About .
Grad A: clever .
Professor C: Oh , that {disfmarker} in that use of " about " , yeah .
Grad F: Oh , oh , oh , as a hedge .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: And I think {disfmarker} And I think {pause} y if you want us to spend a pleasant six or seven hours you could get George started on that .
Grad E: He wrote a paper about thirty - five years ago on that one .
Grad B: I r I read that paper ,
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad B: the hedges paper ? I read some of that paper actually .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad E: Would you believe that that paper lead directly to the development of anti - lock brakes ?
Grad F: What ?
Professor C: No .
Grad E: Ask me about it later I 'll tell you how . When we 're not on tape .
Grad F: I 'd love to know .
Grad B: Oh , man .
Grad F: So , and {disfmarker} and I think , uh , someone had raised like sarcasm as a complication at some point .
Professor C: There 's all that stuff . Yeah , let 's {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}
Grad F: And we just won't deal with sarcastic people .
Professor C: Yeah , I mean {disfmarker}
Grad E: I don't really know what like {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} we don't have to care too much about the speaker attitude , right ? Like there 's not so many different {disfmarker} hhh , {comment} I don't know , m
Grad F: Certainly not as some {disfmarker} Well , they 're intonational markers I think for the most part .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: I don't know too much about the like grammatical {disfmarker}
Grad E: I just mean {disfmarker} There 's lots of different attitudes that {disfmarker} that the speaker could have and that we can clearly identify , and so on , and so forth .
Grad F: Yeah .
Grad E: But like what are the distinctions among those that we actually care about for our current purposes ?
Professor C: Right . Right , so , uh , this {disfmarker} this raises the question of what are our current purposes .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Right ?
Grad E: Oh , shoot .
Grad F: Oh , yeah , do we have any ?
Grad E: Here it is three - fifteen already .
Grad A: Mmm . Yeah .
Professor C: Uh , so , um , I {disfmarker} I don't know the answer but {disfmarker} but , um , it does seem that , you know , this is {disfmarker} this is coming along . I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's converging . It 's {disfmarker} as far as I can tell there 's this one major thing we have to do which is the mental {disfmarker} the whole s mental space thing . And then there 's some other minor things .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Um , and we 're going to have to s sort of bound the complexity . I mean , if we get everything that anybody ever thought about you know , w we 'll go nuts .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: So we had started with the idea that the actual , uh , constraint was related to this tourist domain and the kinds of interactions that might occur in the tourist domain , assuming that people were being helpful and weren't trying to d you know , there 's all sorts of {disfmarker} God knows , irony , and stuff like {disfmarker} which you {disfmarker} isn't probably of much use in dealing with a tourist guide .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: Yeah ?
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: Uh .
Grad F: M mockery .
Professor C: Right . Whatever . So y uh , no end of things th that {disfmarker} that , you know , we don't deal with .
Grad A: But it {disfmarker}
Professor C: And {disfmarker}
Grad A: i isn't that part easy though
Professor C: Go ahead .
Grad A: because in terms of the s simspec , it would just mean you put one more set of brack brackets around it , and then just tell it to sort of negate whatever the content of that is in terms of irony
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: N no .
Grad F: Mmm .
Grad A: or {disfmarker}
Professor C: No .
Grad E: Right .
Grad F: Maybe .
Professor C: No .
Grad F: Yeah , in model theory cuz the semantics is always like " speaker believes not - P " , you know ?
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: Like " the speaker says P and believes not - P " .
Grad E: We have a theoretical model of sarcasm now .
Grad F: But {disfmarker}
Professor C: Right .
Grad E: Yeah , right , I mean .
Professor C: No , no .
Grad F: Right , right , but ,
Professor C: Anyway , so {disfmarker} so , um , I guess uh , let me make a proposal on how to proceed on that , which is that , um , it was Keith 's , uh , sort of job over the summer to come up with this set of constructions . Uh , and my suggestion to Keith is that you , over the next couple weeks , n
Grad E: Mmm .
Professor C: don't try to do them in detail or formally but just try to describe which ones you think we ought to have .
Grad E: OK .
Professor C: Uh , and then when Robert gets back we 'll look at the set of them .
Grad E: OK .
Professor C: Just {disfmarker} just sort of , you know , define your space .
Grad E: Yeah , OK .
Professor C: And , um , so th these are {disfmarker} this is a set of things that I think we ought to deal with .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: And then we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll go back over it and w people will {disfmarker} will give feedback on it .
Grad E: OK .
Professor C: And then {disfmarker} then we 'll have a {disfmarker} at least initial spec of {disfmarker} of what we 're actually trying to do .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: And that 'll also be useful for anybody who 's trying to write a parser .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Knowing uh {disfmarker}
Grad E: In case there 's any around .
Grad F: If we knew anybody like that .
Professor C: Right , " who might want " et cetera . So , uh {disfmarker}
Grad E: OK .
Professor C: So a and we get this {disfmarker} this , uh , portals fixed and then we have an idea of the sort of initial range . And then of course Nancy you 're gonna have to , uh , do your set of {disfmarker} but you have to do that anyway .
Grad F: For the same , yeah , data . Yeah , mm - hmm .
Professor C: So {disfmarker} so we 're gonna get the w we 're basically dealing with two domains , the tourist domain and the {disfmarker} and the child language learning .
Grad B: Mmm .
Professor C: And we 'll see what we need for those two . And then my proposal would be to , um , not totally cut off more general discussion but to focus really detailed work on the subset of things that we 've {disfmarker} we really want to get done .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: And then as a kind of separate thread , think about the more general things and {disfmarker} and all that .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Grad A: Well , I also think the detailed discussion will hit {disfmarker} you know , bring us to problems that are of a general nature and maybe even {disfmarker}
Professor C: Uh , without doubt . Yeah .
Grad F: Yeah .
Grad A: even suggest some solutions .
Professor C: But what I want to do is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is to {disfmarker} to constrain the things that we really feel responsible for .
Grad A: Yeah . Mmm .
Professor C: So that {disfmarker} that we say these are the things we 're really gonna try do by the end of the summer
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: and other things we 'll put on a list of {disfmarker} of research problems or something , because you can easily get to the point where nothing gets done because every time you start to do something you say , " oh , yeah , but what about this case ? "
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: This is {disfmarker} this is called being a linguist .
Grad A: Mmm .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: And , uh ,
Grad E: Basically .
Grad F: Or me .
Professor C: Huh ?
Grad F: Or me . Anyways {disfmarker}
Grad B: There 's that quote in Jurafsky and Martin where {disfmarker} where it goes {disfmarker} where some guy goes , " every time I fire a linguist the performance of the recognizer goes up . "
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: Yeah .
Grad E: Exactly .
Professor C: Right . But anyway . So , is {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} does that make sense as a , uh {disfmarker} a general way to proceed ?
Grad F: Sure , yeah .
Grad E: Yeah , yeah , we 'll start with that , just figuring out what needs to be done then actually the next step is to start trying to do it .
Professor C: Exactly right .
Grad A: Mmm .
Grad E: Got it .
Grad A: Mmm .
Grad E: OK .
Grad A: We have a little bit of news , uh , just minor stuff . The one big {disfmarker}
Grad B: Ooo , can I ask a {disfmarker}
Grad E: You ran out of power .
Grad A: Huh ?
Grad B: Can I ask a quick question about this side ?
Grad A: Yeah .
Grad F: Yes .
Grad B: Is this , uh {disfmarker} was it intentional to leave off things like " inherits " and {disfmarker}
Grad F: Oops . Um ,
Grad E: No .
Grad F: not really {disfmarker} just on the constructions , right ?
Grad B: Yeah , like constructions can inherit from other things ,
Grad F: Um ,
Grad B: am I right ?
Grad F: yeah .
Grad B: Yeah .
Grad F: I didn't want to think too much about that for {disfmarker} for now .
Grad B: OK .
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad F: So , uh , maybe it was subconsciously intentional .
Professor C: Yeah , uh {disfmarker} yeah .
Grad E: Um , yeah , there should be {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I wanted to s find out someday if there was gonna be some way of dealing with , uh , if this is the right term , multiple inheritance ,
Professor C: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: where one construction is inheriting from , uh from both parents ,
Grad F: Uh - huh . Yep .
Grad E: uh , or different ones , or three or four different ones .
Professor C: Yeah . So let me {disfmarker}
Grad E: Cuz the problem is that then you have to {disfmarker}
Grad F: Yeah .
Grad E: which of {disfmarker} you know , which are {disfmarker} how they 're getting bound together .
Grad F: Refer to {pause} them .
Professor C: Yeah , right , right , right . Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Grad F: Yeah , and {disfmarker} and there are certainly cases like that . Even with just semantic schemas we have some examples .
Professor C: Right .
Grad F: So , and we 've been talking a little bit about that anyway .
Professor C: Yeah . So what I would like to do is separate that problem out .
Grad F: Inherits .
Professor C: So um ,
Grad E: OK .
Professor C: my argument is there 's nothing you can do with that that you can't do by just having more constructions .
Grad E: Yeah , yes .
Professor C: It 's uglier and it d doesn't have the deep linguistic insights and stuff .
Grad E: That 's right .
Professor C: Uh ,
Grad E: But whatever .
Professor C: Right .
Grad E: Yeah , no , no , no no .
Grad F: Uh , those are over rated .
Grad E: No , by all means ,
Professor C: And so I {disfmarker} what I 'd like to do is {disfmarker} is in the short run focus on getting it right .
Grad E: right . Uh , sure .
Professor C: And when we think we have it right then saying , " aha ! ,
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: can we make it more elegant ? "
Grad E: Yeah , that 's {disfmarker}
Professor C: Can {disfmarker} can we , uh {disfmarker} What are the generalizations , and stuff ?
Grad E: Yeah . Connect the dots . Yeah .
Professor C: But rather than try to guess a inheritance structure and all that sort of stuff before we know what we 're doing .
Grad E: Yep . Yeah .
Professor C: So I would say in the short run we 're not gonna b
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor C: First of all , we 're not doing them yet at all . And {disfmarker} and it could be that half way through we say , " aha ! , we {disfmarker} we now see how we want to clean it up . "
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor C: Uh , and inheritance is only one {disfmarker} I mean , that 's one way to organize it but there are others . And it may or may not be the best way .
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad A: Mmm .
Professor C: I 'm sorry , you had news .
Grad A: Oh , just small stuff . Um , thanks to Eva on our web site we can now , if you want to run JavaBayes , uh , you could see {disfmarker} get {disfmarker} download these classes . And then it will enable you {disfmarker} she modified the GUI so it has now a m a m a button menu item for saving it into the embedded JavaBayes format .
Grad D: Mm - hmm .
Grad B: Mmm .
Grad A: So that 's wonderful .
Professor C: Great .
Grad A: And , um and she , a You tested it out . Do you want to say something about that , that it works , right ? With the {disfmarker}
Grad D: I was just checking like , when we wanna , um , get the posterior probability of , like , variables . You know how you asked whether we can , like , just observe all the variables like in the same list ? You can't .
Grad A: Uh - huh .
Grad D: You have to make separate queries every time .
Grad A: OK , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a bit unfortunate
Grad D: So {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad A: but for the time being it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's fine to do it {disfmarker}
Grad D: You just have to have a long list of , you know , all the variables .
Grad A: Yeah . But uh {disfmarker}
Grad D: Basically .
Grad F: Uh , all the things you want to query , you just have to like ask for separately .
Grad D: Yeah , yeah .
Grad A: Well that 's {disfmarker} probably maybe in the long term that 's good news because it forces us to think a little bit more carefully how {disfmarker} how we want to get an out output . Um , but that 's a different discussion for a different time . And , um , I don't know . We 're really running late , so I had , uh , an idea yesterday but , uh , I don't know whether we should even start discussing .
Professor C: W what {disfmarker} Yeah , sure , tell us what it is .
Grad A: Um , the construal bit that , um , has been pointed to but hasn't been , um , made precise by any means , um , may w may work as follows . I thought that we would , uh {disfmarker} that the following thing would be in incredibly nice and I have no clue whether it will work at all or nothing . So that 's just a tangent , a couple of mental disclaimers here . Um , imagine you {disfmarker} you write a Bayes - net , um {disfmarker}
Grad F: Bayes ?
Grad A: Bayes - net ,
Grad F: OK .
Grad A: um , completely from scratch every time you do construal . So you have nothing . Just a white piece of paper .
Professor C: Mmm , right .
Grad A: You consult {disfmarker} consult your ontology which will tell you a bunch of stuff , and parts , and properties , uh - uh - uh
Grad F: Grout out the things that {disfmarker} that you need .
Professor C: Right .
Grad A: then y you 'd simply write , uh , these into {disfmarker} onto your {disfmarker} your white piece of paper . And you will get a lot of notes and stuff out of there . You won't get {disfmarker} you won't really get any C P T 's , therefore we need everything that {disfmarker} that configures to what the situation is , IE , the context dependent stuff . So you get whatever comes from discourse but also filtered . Uh , so only the ontology relevant stuff from the discourse plus the situation and the user model .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
Grad A: And that fills in your CPT 's with which you can then query , um , the {disfmarker} the net that you just wrote and find out how thing X is construed as an utterance U . And the embedded JavaBayes works exactly like that , that once you {disfmarker} we have , you know , precise format in which to write it , so we write it down . You query it . You get the result , and you throw it away . And the {disfmarker} the nice thing about this idea is that you don't ever have to sit down and think about it or write about it . You may have some general rules as to how things can be {disfmarker} can be construed as what , so that will allow you to craft the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the initial notes . But it 's {disfmarker} in that respect it 's completely scalable . Because it doesn't have any prior , um , configuration . It 's just you need an ontology of the domain and you need the context dependent modules . And if this can be made to work at all , {vocalsound} that 'd be kind of funky .
Professor C: Um , it sounds to me like you want P R
Grad A: P R Ms - uh , PRM I mean , since you can unfold a PRM into a straightforward Bayes - net {disfmarker}
Professor C: Beca - because it {disfmarker} b because {disfmarker} No , no , you can't . See the {disfmarker} the critical thing about the PRM is it gives these relations in general form . So once you have instantiated the PRM with the instances and ther then you can {disfmarker} then you can unfold it .
Grad A: Then you can . Mm - hmm , yeah . No , I was m using it generic . So , uh , probabilistic , whatever , relational models . Whatever you write it . In {disfmarker}
Professor C: Well , no , but it matters a lot because you {disfmarker} what you want are these generalized rules about the way things relate , th that you then instantiate in each case .
Grad A: And then {disfmarker} then instantiate them . That 's ma maybe the {disfmarker} the way {disfmarker} the only way it works .
Professor C: Yeah , and that 's {disfmarker}
Grad A:
Professor C: Yeah , that 's the only way it could work . I {disfmarker} we have a {disfmarker} our local expert on P R uh , but my guess is that they 're not currently good enough to do that . But we 'll {disfmarker} we 'll have to see .
Grad A: But , uh ,
Professor C: Uh {disfmarker} Yes . This is {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that would be a good thing to try . It 's related to the Hobbs abduction story in that you th you throw everything into a pot and you try to come up with the , uh {disfmarker}
Grad A: Except there 's no {disfmarker} no theorem prover involved .
Grad F: Best explanation .
Professor C: No , there isn't a theorem prover but there {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but the , um , The cove the {disfmarker} the P R Ms are like rules of inference and you 're {disfmarker} you 're coupling a bunch of them together .
Grad A: Mm - hmm , yeah .
Professor C: And then ins instead of proving you 're trying to , you know , compute the most likely . Uh {disfmarker} Tricky . But you {disfmarker} yeah , it 's a good {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a good thing to put in your thesis proposal .
Grad A: What 's it ?
Professor C: So are you gonna write something for us before you go ?
Grad A: Yes . Um .
Professor C: Oh , you have something .
Grad A: In the process thereof , or whatever .
Professor C: OK . So , what 's {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} when are we gonna meet again ?
Grad F: When are you leaving ?
Grad A: Fri - uh ,
Grad F: Thursday , Friday ?
Grad A: Thursday 's my last day here .
Grad D: Fri
Professor C: Yeah .
Grad F: OK .
Grad A: So {disfmarker} I would suggest as soon as possible . Do you mean by we , the whole ben gang ?
Professor C: N no , I didn't mean y just the two of us . We {disfmarker} obviously we can {disfmarker} we can do this . But the question is do you want to , for example , send the little group , uh , a draft of your thesis proposal and get , uh , another session on feedback on that ? Or {disfmarker}
Grad A: We can do it Th - Thursday again . Yeah .
Grad E: Fine with me . Should we do the one PM time for Thursday since we were on that before or {disfmarker} ?
Grad A: Sure .
Grad E: OK .
Professor C: Alright .
Grad D: Hmm .
Grad A: Thursday at one ? I can also maybe then sort of run through the , uh {disfmarker} the talk I have to give at EML which highlights all of our work .
Professor C: OK .
Grad A: And we can make some last minute changes on that .
Professor C: OK .
Grad B: You can just give him the abstract that we wrote for the paper .
Professor C: That - that 'll tell him exactly what 's going on . Yeah , that {disfmarker} Alright .
Grad F: Can we do {disfmarker} can we do one - thirty ?
Grad A: No .
Grad F: Oh , you already told me no .
Grad A: But we can do four .
Grad F: One , OK , it 's fine . I can do one . It 's fine . It 's fine .
Grad A: One or four . I don't care .
Grad E: To me this is equal . I don't care .
Grad A: If it 's equal for all ? What should we do ?
Grad F: Yeah , it 's fine .
Grad A: Four ?
Grad F: Fine . Yeah {disfmarker} no , no , no , uh , I don't care . It 's fine .
Grad A: It 's equal to all of us , so you can decide one or four .
Grad B: The pressure 's on you Nancy .
Grad A: Liz actually said she likes four because it forces the Meeting Recorder people to cut , you know {disfmarker} the discussions short .
Grad F: OK . OK , four .
Grad E: Well , if you insist , then .
Grad F: OK ? OK . I am . | |
doc_195 | Project Manager: Okay , good morning . This is our first team meeting .
User Interface: Good day .
Marketing: Morning .
Industrial Designer: Morning .
Project Manager: I'll be your Project Manager for today , for this project . My name is Mark {gap} will be giving this presentation for you to kick the project off . {vocalsound} That's my uh that's the agenda for today . Well , of course we're new to each other , so I'd like to get acquainted first . So let's do that first , I mean {disfmarker} Let's start with you , can you introduce yourself ? You're our Marketing Expert .
Marketing: Yes . {vocalsound} Um my name is Dirk , Dirk Meinfeld . Um I will be uh {gap} Pr Project {disfmarker} the Marketing Expert . And I will see what the user wants and uh what we can do uh with the new produ project {disfmarker} product . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , excellent . And you are User Interface {disfmarker}
User Interface: Nick Broer ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: User Interface Designer . I'm going to uh look at the technical design from the uh user point of view .
Project Manager: Excellent . Okay .
Industrial Designer: My name is Xavier Juergens , I'm the Industrial Designer , and there are three main questions that I have to find an answer to today . First one is uh what happens inside the apparatus , second is what is uh the apparatus made of ,
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: and the third is what should it look like .
Project Manager: What should it look like ? Okay .
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: Oh , let's kick it off . Oh , there we go . So , our new project is about {disfmarker} we need design a remote control for television set , so , which has to be original , trendy and user-friendly . I took this off our corporate website . {disfmarker} I think well it sums up what we need to do . It's We're inspired by latest fashion , not only electronics , but also the latest trends in clothes and interior design . That's why our product will always fit in your home . So apparently we need to {vocalsound} um be very at um very open to what's currently hot in the market . So that's what you need to do to bring us the latest info and what people want .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} So we put the fashion in electronics . So that's what we need to go for . Anyway , we'll take this project in three steps , three pha uh three phase of design . First step will be the functional design .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: And that's basically what we're gonna do . Everybody has uh a piece of individual work and a meeting afterwards , so we can share information about {disfmarker} So I'm gonna keep this short , since we had a technical problem . So skip through this . Uh . Okay . Every meeting we {disfmarker} everybody can present their uh their views and everything , so to help with these , you have {disfmarker} we have the SMARTboards here . We can use a regular PowerPoint presentation . I'm supposed to give you an introduction on this doodling board , so it's {disfmarker} actually it's very easy . Like it says , very simple , you just take out the pen . Like you see here , I'll just take the {disfmarker} take {gap} here . That's it , you just put it on the board . You see a pen here . You go here , just like using a pen . You can just draw whatever you want . It's like the eraser , can erase whatever you want . And so it will be easy just to illustrate your views , if you wanna change the format , you just {vocalsound} either take out jus just like the pen , and whatever you want , your current colour , your line width , just to make the line bigger . So it should be really easy .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: This is to take the {disfmarker} just take a new slide and back again . We're just gonna keep using this board all the time , so I think it will be {disfmarker} it's very clear for everyone , I suppose . So I'll take this out . {vocalsound} Okay . We'll use that later . Anyway . Yeah , just just just stuff that you wanna share , just put it in the in the project folder , like I put my presentation now . I'll put the the minutes of every meeting , I'll put them there too , so everybody can read up if they have to leave early or whatever . So next , been here . {vocalsound} Well , {gap} gonna give the electronic white-board uh a shot . So basic idea is we have a blank sheet . Just try whatever you want , and like it says , draw your favourite animal . I think the creative genius should go first . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} The creative genius ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Thank you very much .
Project Manager: So , draw us your favourite animal .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well , I'm more into the technical aspects of drawing ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so I'm not really good at drawing animals ,
Project Manager: Draw us a technical animal .
User Interface: but uh the animal which I {gap} {disfmarker} Oh .
Project Manager: Yeah , it's still erasing .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Pen .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh format . Else my animal will be like king-size . I pretty much like {vocalsound} a dolphin , because of its uh its freedom basically . Let's see . A head . {gap} actually worked with this . It's like uh it's a very {disfmarker} Uh high-tech .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Bit low-responsive though .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So that's what we don't want .
User Interface: Prefer pen and paper .
Project Manager: We want a high-responsive product . So {disfmarker} It looks more like nuclear bomb .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Very nice dolphin .
User Interface: It {vocalsound} {vocalsound} doesn't look like a nuclear bomb .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: This thing isn't doing what I'm {disfmarker} What I want .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Let's go easy on it .
User Interface: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah , well it does look like a nuclear bomb .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'll just finish up real soon , because I'm {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So it doesn't really look like a dolphin ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Anyway ,
User Interface: but then again , this is all new for me .
Project Manager: it should {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} It's supposed to be a dolphin , you like the freedom that it {disfmarker} that it represents .
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh .
User Interface: Like the ocean , like swimming . Do that in my spare time , so that's basically an {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What do you like ? Okay . Well ,
User Interface: Now we can forget this ever happened .
Project Manager: our Marketing Expert . Show us an animal .
Marketing: Um an animal .
Project Manager: {gap} Pick a {disfmarker} pick a {disfmarker}
Marketing: I like the elephant . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: pick a clean sheet . Oh . Take a clean sheet first .
Marketing: What ? Yeah . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Just press next . That's it .
Marketing: Oh yeah . Oh , a blank . Okay , next . Free , I like the elephant . It's big , it's strong , so uh uh {disfmarker} Oh , it's a little bit {disfmarker}
User Interface: It's not really that responsive , no . {vocalsound}
Marketing: You have to hold it , right ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} It's a beautiful animal .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh , you have to p press it pretty hard . With a smile on it ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's a cute elephant .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: it's very important . Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And uh not to forget its tail . Oh .
Project Manager: It's a nice beard .
Marketing: Yeah , it's okay . Yes . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And you was making comments on my dolphin . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I will beat the dolphin . {vocalsound} No .
Project Manager: Okay , so it's just a bee .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: So I suggest you make us the elephant in the market . The big and strong player in the market . This would be good .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , excellent . On to the next one .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: Uh yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay , you should press next .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Press next . Yeah , it's up there .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: That's it .
Industrial Designer: Okay , well the animal I'd like to draw is a tiger .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You picked a hard one , didn't you ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: My drawing skills are really bad , so .
Marketing: Experience with the tiger .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: What ? They are {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: They are really bad , my drawing skills .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay uh-huh .
Project Manager: Sure looks smooth .
Marketing: Oh .
Industrial Designer: I'm not sure how the legs should go , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh these are stripes .
User Interface: Got it . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I've picked this animal because it's very fast . It is uh it knows exactly what it wants . Uh it hardly ever wastes any resources .
Project Manager: What does it want ?
Industrial Designer: Uh well , basically uh it hunts for prey , but it does it always in a very well-thought way . Uh it knows exactly what it wants . It never kills an animal uh just for the killing , so it's very efficient . And it tries to do everything as fast as possible .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: And it always goes for uh security , in seeking uh uh a hide spot and uh and doing everything ,
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: security , speed and efficiency is important . And I think uh those things we can use .
Project Manager: I agree .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: , I'm supposed to draw the animal next . Yay I introduce to the world the amazing ant .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh hard worker .
Project Manager: Great team-workers .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Do everything to Uh really small , but together they're really strong . So I'm gonna give it a smiley face .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Not sure where the p {gap} . Just put 'em here . Whatever . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Think it need shoes . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I'm just too lazy to draw it all black , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That's the coolest ant ever .
User Interface: You've done this before , haven't you ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I love to draw ants . It's my hobby .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Anyway {disfmarker} Nah . {vocalsound} Just {disfmarker} I think it's very representative what we drew , I guess . Like you take {disfmarker} just take your freedom and use a a trendy interface that you design for us .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Just {disfmarker} Yeah . You're supposed to make i make it different from uh from what other people have , and just make it a little distinct . Anyway . {gap} another beep to stop the meeting . See . Warning . Finish meeting now . Uh put this down . Examples . Well I guess we have a little little time extra , but {disfmarker} Just a little quick discussion to to open open our work . So what do you guys think about {disfmarker} The first idea is just very short . I'll start with you . What are y What are your first ideas for the new product ? What {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , I basically had a question . Do {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} Are we going to introduce a multi remote control ? Is it just the T_V_ or do we want to in
Project Manager: The project I got was just for a T_V_ remote control .
Marketing: Uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Just for T_V_ remote control .
Project Manager: Yeah , I guess so .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay . Well , I was thinking about design remote control , with our uh motto and all .
Marketing: But {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh thing to keep in mind is that we need to stick to what people are familiar with .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: No rational changes or whatever , 'cause it {disfmarker} revolutionary changes ,
Project Manager: Okay , so very intuitive design , I guess .
User Interface: yes . {vocalsound} Uh we might have to consider other design aspects of our product . So that was something I wanted to add ,
Project Manager: {gap}
User Interface: and perhaps some usability aspect . T_V_ is becoming central in most homes . Do we want people who are disabled in any way to uh , yeah , to be able to use it as well ?
Project Manager: Yeah , we want {disfmarker} I suppose we want almost everyone to be using it . So {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker} I mean , really disabled people , yeah , {vocalsound} might be a problem , but I think it's a little {gap} take it into consideration . Um yeah . I think we really need to cut the meeting short . You have anything you wanna share quickly ?
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: Uh .
Industrial Designer: Only one thing uh that has to be added according to me is uh the the material it is made of , it should be something light .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: That's {disfmarker} it speaks for itself ,
Project Manager: It should be light , okay .
Industrial Designer: but some uh {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: Um , let's see ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: where did I {disfmarker} Let's skip that . Oh , this is it . Sorry , I skipped this sheet .
Marketing: Selling price .
Project Manager: What do we {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} Quick {gap} {disfmarker} What we're going to {disfmarker} Selling price , twenty five Euros . That's for you . The production price , twelve and a half Euros , approximately .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: Just go go for that . We'll reach the uh reach that profit .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Okay , well that's not that much to work with . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} international .
Project Manager: No , it's not much to work on . I'm sorry , I skipped it . {vocalsound} Anyways , that's {disfmarker} Yeah , this is it . Do you have anything you you came up with yet ? About uh marketing transfer , whatever ?
Marketing: Um about what ? Marketing ?
Project Manager: Marketing {gap} I'm not sure what you what you came up with yet . You have anything to share ? Or else we'll cut the meeting just cut the meeting short
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um no , not really yet ,
Project Manager: since we're supposed to stop .
Marketing: but I've some ideas
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: and I will uh say it uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Anyways , the the personal coach will give you the your p your personal assignments and everything . So we'll just meet back in here thirty minutes .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: I'm sure we have that .
Industrial Designer: Good luck everyone .
Project Manager: Yeah , thanks for attending .
User Interface: Mm , good luck .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'll see you back here in thirty minutes .
Marketing: Okay . Yes .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} | |
doc_196 | Project Manager: Okay . Hi everybody and welcome to our kick-off meeting um for our new product that we're gonna be designing . Um I'm Mandy and I'm the Project Manager . And I know all your names again , Courtney , Fenella and Amber .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: Alright . Okay ,
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: so first let's go through this PowerPoint . I wonder what button I press ?
User Interface: Just do it on the {gap} arrow .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah , or how about I just click ? Okay , here is our agenda for this meeting . Um we're gonna start with our opening which was our introductions . {vocalsound} We're gonna get to know each other a little bit better . Um tool training , we're going to , I guess , figure out what to do on this project with our individual roles . Um we're gonna make a project plan and then have some time for discussion and close up the meeting . Okay , here is our project . We're gonna make a new remote control that's um original , trendy and also user-friendly . And how we are going to do it is each of us is going to um {disfmarker} We're gonna have {disfmarker} discuss the functional design first , {vocalsound} how is it gonna be used , what's the actual goal here , it has to operate T_V_ , blah blah blah . And we're going to do individual work on that and then meet . Same thing with conceptual design . Just the basic overview of the project and then we're going to do individual work , meet . That's pretty much the the whole process for today . And then the detailed design , just more in-depth , get the actual schematics of the remote . Okay . Alright . First we're gonna start off by using our tools . And the whiteboard thing , do you guys wanna give that a try even though the ink wasn't working or do you wanna do it on here .
Industrial Designer: I think we should forgo the whiteboard since we can't actually see what we're writing .
Marketing: We could {disfmarker} Yeah , we could on here .
Project Manager: Alright , let's go forward then .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um right now so we're all gonna draw our favourite animal and then sum up our favourite characteristics of that animal . Even if you are not a good drawer like me .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright .
Industrial Designer: Artistic skills , nil .
User Interface: Fine .
Project Manager: Um .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh , thanks . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Bless you .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I draw like I'm in grade five .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh do I .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} 'Kay , about one more minute . {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . And who would like to start us off ?
Marketing: I'll go .
Project Manager: Alright .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um this is my picture . I drew fish {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I like fish , because uh , you know , their whole water-vascular system thing .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's pretty cool , and um they've got a pretty good habitat and they are pretty sometimes , sometimes vicious but that's okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Only if they're piranhas .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , they they're easy , you know .
Project Manager: Alright .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Who wants to go next ?
Industrial Designer: I'll go .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I drew a kitty . It's pretty much impossible to tell that's a cat , but I love cats .
Marketing: No I I see it .
Project Manager: No , it looks like a cat .
User Interface: No , I kne I knew .
Marketing: Yeah , it does look like a cat .
Industrial Designer: I love cats because they're independent , uh they pretty much know what they want , they get it , they move on . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I love cats , too . I'm a cat person .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: I'm allergic to cats .
Project Manager: Uh .
Industrial Designer: I'm allergic to cats , too . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Ah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh , okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: If you're around one {disfmarker}
User Interface: In my next life .
Project Manager: I had a roommate who was um allergic , but if she was around my cat forever she became used to it , you know ,
Marketing: Yeah , yeah , if you're around them for a long period of time {disfmarker}
Project Manager: it's weird . Okay . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I still can't sleep with them in my room .
Marketing: Oh , yeah , this summer I , oh I had to live with cats . It was crazy .
Project Manager: Okay , Fenella ?
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Um , I drew a badger . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Badger . Good choice .
Industrial Designer: Yay .
Marketing: Cool . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well , yeah .
Project Manager: Why a badger ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh I dunno , they're grumpy and nocturnal and {vocalsound} {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Are you trying to suggest something ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well , a little bit like the {disfmarker} Yes . Um . {vocalsound} And then , if you know Wind in the Willows {gap} badger .
Marketing: Oh , okay .
User Interface: Yeah and then uh I don't know if you know Brian {gap} . He's Liverpudlian writer .
Project Manager: Alright .
User Interface: Um {gap} , that kind of books . Badgers are cool in that one too . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . And I'm last . 'Kay . Look at my sad sad giraffe .
Marketing: No , that's good .
Project Manager: No , no , no , it ends up looking like some kind of a dinosaur , but whatever . I don't know even much about giraffes , but I just love the way they look . They're just such odd creatures , you know . I I like that they're so unique and individual , I guess . I don't know much about their behaviour or anything , though . Only seen a couple in zoos .
Marketing: You don't really have to , I mean , if you like 'em {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , but you can appreciate the way they look . Okay . Alright . Guess we're getting straight back into business here .
User Interface: {gap}
Project Manager: Um the selling price for our remote is going to be twenty-five Euro , and our profit aim is fifty million Euro . We're going to make this an international product marketed in the States , in Europe , in Asia . And um our production cost to make that profit is gonna be a max of twelve fifty Euro per remote . Okay . So we're gonna talk for a little while . Um here are some topics that we might be able to discuss . Expe our experiences with remote controls um , our first ideas about this new remote , anything that you can bring to the table for this project . So .
User Interface: Now ?
Project Manager: Yeah . You wanna start us off ? Anybody have anything to offer ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well , we wanna make a multifunctional remote , right ?
Project Manager: Right .
Industrial Designer: One remote for everything .
User Interface: And everything being {disfmarker} Wait , we have what , sound system , T_V_ , D_V_D_ , V_H_S_ , uh TiVo ?
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: Um . I think they'll be phasing V_H_S_ out shortly .
Marketing: Yeah , TiVo .
Project Manager: TiVo .
User Interface: But it's still there , so
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: if po if we're gonna do it {disfmarker}
Marketing: It needs to be compatible 'cause universal remote controls are never universal .
Project Manager: They're never universal . That's right . Esp e especially if you buy a a not big product , D_V_D_ player , say , usually it doesn't work if it's not one of the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Or if it's not like a Sony , if it's like a {disfmarker} I don't know .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah . Something from Sam's club .
Industrial Designer: So we'll have to figure it how to cover all the different variances in signals .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: And what we need an insanely good instruction booklet , because you always have to reconfigure all your contraptions to go with the remote anyways .
Project Manager: Yeah . 'Kay , and um another thing that I think is important is the d the design of the product , how it feels in your hand . If it's just flat and kind of boring th those don't {disfmarker} Nobody wants to buy those any more . They want the ergonomic ones .
Marketing: They want like the flashy lights .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Oh like this came from Las Vegas .
Project Manager: Ones that ones that look high-tech , too .
User Interface: But at the same time are simple .
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: Mm yeah .
Project Manager: So that people like my mother can use it .
Industrial Designer: What about something with the curvature like that matches the curvature of a hand ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: 'Kay . Anybody have any experiences with remote controls that they can remember that {disfmarker}
User Interface: Just bad ones . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah {gap} . {vocalsound} That's true .
User Interface: Um .
Industrial Designer: What kinda battery would we want to use ? Because battery changing is usually {disfmarker}
User Interface: D Double A_ .
Marketing: Double A_ .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Do some of them use triple A_s though ?
Marketing: Yeah some use triple A_s .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Some but {disfmarker}
Marketing: So double or triple ?
User Interface: Yeah , I guess then it's {disfmarker} If we need to do triple A_ we can , but most people usually have double A_s around .
Project Manager: Okay . Yeah . But that has to do with the size of it too . Well , w as long as we know that issue is {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Right .
Project Manager: Here we can {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , if we want it to be more thin , then we'd probably wanna go with a triple A_ .
Project Manager: Triple A . But
Industrial Designer: Can you {gap} with a small lithium battery ?
Project Manager: it's okay , we don't have to decide about it now , just as long as we remember battery type and size is important .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hey . Anything else ? Alright . Moving along . Oh , we're closing the meeting . Next meeting is gonna start in thirty minutes . Here's what we're going to do . Um the I_D_ , which is who ? Okay , you're going to think about the working design . What do you think that means ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . And U_I_D_ , the technical fun functions design ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: making sure it does everything that we need the remote to do , the functionality of it , operating all those different things . Okay . And the marketing person , that's Courtney , is going to do the user requirements specification . I guess that means specifying um what exactly the user is going to be looking for . Right ? I would think so . Okay .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: And you're gonna get more specific instructions emailed to you in just a little while . Okay , so does anybody have anything they wanna say before we close the meeting ? Okay . This meeting is officially over . |
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