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Privacy Commission Day 6, Witness 1: Avril Sanders Royle |
The PM Privacy Commission spoke to Avril Sanders Royle on Thursday June 30, 2011. The commissioners are Sir Michael Lyons, Lord Faulks QC and Baroness Liddell. |
ML: Good day and welcome back to the BBC PM Privacy Commission. One of the issues which have emerged over our discussion so far is whether concern about privacy and the role of the courts and others extends to ordinary people or is just a debate about the interests of the rich and powerful. Today we're joined by an exa... |
ASR: The experiences we had changed our lives. What happened was that Julian had been missing for a week before we got a knock on the door and it had been all over the papers before that so I knew about the case and when it happened we had to make sure the other family members knew. We had one person, one close family ... |
ML: Avril, given the...those sounds like terrible circumstances to have gone through and I'm sure all listeners will relate to that and try to put themselves in your position but given that there is such public interest in crimes and this was a crime which as you say immediately grabbed attention, how might the press h... |
ASR: I think the press could deal with it differently in several ways. If they didn't talk about a story - a story is something that you read to children at bedtime that is pleasant. If they change the mindset, the subliminal message that news is public entertainment they would be going a long way so instead of saying ... |
ML: In those early days, after you became aware of Julian was the victim and you were beginning the process of grieving. Did you manage to protect your privacy from the press at that time; did you have problems of intrusion? |
ASR: In the very early days we had reporters knocking on the door asking for a story and we obviously slammed the door in their face and told them to go away, this was not a story. The police, actually, we had some wonderful family liaison officers, Steve Colly and Sian Turner and they were fantastic in helping us. The... |
ML: But you readily acknowledge that the press have a role to play in making sure that the search for the perpetrator, further evidence has an important part to play doesn't it. |
ASR: yes, yes, yes |
ML: Helen do you want to come in? |
HL: Avril I know that after this terrible murder of Julian you were upset about the nature of some comments that was made about Julian's life. I understand he was on some mild medication at the time. |
ASR: Yes. |
HL: And that you were really concerned about the accuracy about what was written about Julian and the kind of person he was. Can you tell us a little about that? |
ASR: yes, the way it works is that when one has a trial that the perpetrator has the choice of not standing in the dock and getting cross examined but the victims, the relatives don't have that choice, if they're called to be witnesses they have no choice and it is common practice for the victim, the murdered person to... |
HL: I can understand how passionate you feel about this and I think everyone who saw the aftermath of the Milly Dowler trial just a few days ago must feel very much the same. How - did that bring it all back to you? When you saw it played out with the Dowler family? |
ASR: Every time there is a crime of murder on television or on the radio or in the newspapers it brings it back, every time and it's the same for every member of SAMM support after murder and manslaughter, the charity for which I am one of the trustees. All our families find that this is too painful to bear and it goes... |
HL: You mentioned SAMM which is a charity that works the victims' relatives and helps them cope with this terrible aftermath. You must have come across many families who have been in a similar position to your own. Do people talk often about intrusion of the press and the attack on their privacy? |
ASR: Yes, yes, yes. We have a very secure online forum for our members which is only accessible to members and obviously I don't want to disclose what is said in an online forum because that's not appropriate - it's there just because it's secure. But our members are very, very wary generally of talking to the press, m... |
HL: Thank you. |
ML: Avril, just coming back to those that time immediately after you became aware of Julian's murder, did you look for support at that time? We're obviously particularly interested in the protection of privacy but did you look outside for help? |
ASR: One of the things that happened - and doesn't happen anymore- when something like this happens to someone is that the family liaison officers who are appointed to the family is given a homicide pack and in it are a range of leaflets and documents and information and in there was actually a leaflet for SAMM support... |
ML: So those liaison officers were a very important, very important support for you. |
ASR: Very, very - a lifeline. |
ML: Did you ever at any point have any anxieties about the confidentiality of your discussions with them or with the police watching them? |
ASR: No they were brilliant. |
ML: So you have a strong.... |
ASR: Yeah, they were brilliant, some of our SAMM members don't have as good an experience with the family liaison officers they are appointed. Some police forces around the country don't have as good training for their family liaison officers as our police officers did who were trained at the West Midlands police. In f... |
ML: Have you personally or perhaps has SAMM had any engagement with the press complaints commission to talk about the way that the press deals with cases like this both in terms of coverage and in terms of pressures they place upon victims families? |
ASR: No, I'm not aware of it. I'm sure it's happened but I'm not aware of it. We personally didn't ever make a formal complaint, I know I have rung the BBC several times when something was on that didn't quite feel right and by the time the bulletin was next on it had been removed or changed so they always responded qu... |
ML: Thank you, so what you're saying is that where you have taken matters up with the press you have found them responsive. |
ASR: Yes, yes but you know when the trials were going on you know everyday there were things in the paper referring to headless body case headless corpse case, headless victim trial. You know Julian had been decapitated but actually his head was not missing, it wasn't a headless body case and it was inaccurate but we w... |
ML: Entirely, absolutely entirely understandable. Helen any more questions from you? |
HL: Just one, in terms of the advice that SAMM gives to victims and obviously when victims get in touch with you at first it must be at a particularly difficult time in their lives. |
ASR: Mmm hmm (positive response) |
HL: What advice do you give them in how to deal with the press? |
ASR: Mostly they just want to talk and have someone to listen that knows what they're going through so we...whilst we are there to give support, we don't give people dogmatic advice about this is how it should be done, we say this is an option that is open to you, you may want to do this you may wish to do that but we ... |
HL: Thank you |
ML: Avril, we'll include a reference to the support for murder and manslaughter the SAMM website on our website along with the transcript of this evidence today. Are there any - I've given each and every witness an opportunity to speak as it were direct to listeners. Do you want to just take that opportunity to say in ... |
ASR: My views on these issues are that people who write headlines in newspapers should be more thoughtful about what they're doing and think about the impact of what they're saying rather than just trying to write a catchy headline that will sell their newspapers. I think that's one of my main messages and as far as th... |
ML: Indeed it is, thank you very much for that Avril and for coming and sharing your experience with us and with the listeners of the PM programme. |
ASR: Thank you. |
HL: Thank you Avril it was a privilege talking to you. |
ASR: Thank you. |
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The Miami Herald | EDITORIAL |
Venezuela’s invisible president |
The public was not allowed to get so much as a glimpse of the ailing 58-year-old leader to determine whether he is incapacitated, though all signs point in that direction. Access to the hospital’s ninth floor, where Mr. Chávez resides, is tightly restricted and enforced by a phalanx of gun-toting guards. He has not bee... |
Despite all this enormous secrecy, the evidence is that Mr. Chávez’s condition is much worse than his underlings want the public to believe and that they are either kidding themselves or the public — or both — in order to play for time. |
The increasingly insistent assurances from his designated stand-ins, principally Vice President Nicolás Maduro, that Mr. Chávez was in charge and issuing orders from his hospital bed were rendered less than credible by news that his medical condition was getting progressively worse. Post-surgery complications and what ... |
Meanwhile, despite still more assurances that the president would definitely return for his own inauguration for yet another term on Jan. 10, the president was a no-show. Undaunted, Mr. Chávez’s rubber-stamp parliament and supreme court concocted a ruse. The plain words of Venezuela’s constitution notwithstanding, they... |
Since then, Venezuela’s eroding currency has taken a severe hit in the form of a 40 percent devaluation, yet one more measure of the country’s downslide into economic chaos. All of this makes it very clear that members of Mr. Chávez’s inner circle are making it up as they go along. |
As long as Venezuela’s president remains invisible, the political and economic crisis will worsen. Having Mr. Maduro or some other Chávez substitute take the reins of power would fail to satisfy the requirements of democracy, given that their legitimacy, such as it is, flows from Mr. Chávez himself, not from the voters... |
Mr. Chávez won a clear mandate for another term back in October, but he assured voters that he was cured, and he wasn’t. |
The only option is a new election that pits the opposition against the Bolivarian candidate of Mr. Chávez’s party in a fair and open vote. Barring that, what little claim Venezuela might still have to calling itself a democracy would be nothing less than ridiculous. |
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questionshow many bottles did you have for your child(s)? |
I'm sad to hear that you're going the bottle feeding route, but to each his own. On the other hand... |
Congratulations on your upcoming event! |
My wife and I had about 4 for each of our 3 kids. We got the Playtex Drop-ins bottles so it would make them easier to clean afterwards. |
A couple of things to consider despite how many bottles you go with... |
Be sure to get a sterilyzer for your microwave. You should be sterilyzing the nipples and rings at least once a week. The microwave ones are not very costly but are extremely useful. There are also dishwasher baskets that make it easier to wash them on a regular basis. They're sold at just about every baby aisle I've e... |
Congratulations on your little one |
@shrdlu: Not everyone can breastfeed. My wife tried very, very hard, including taking supplements and multiple appointments with a "breastfeeding specialist". She just could not produce enough goods. |
What we ended up doing was she would pump for about 20 minutes every few hours. By doing that cumulatively, she would produce maybe 4-5 ounces a day, tops. We would then feed that to the baby, supplemented with formula for the remaining feedings (or mixed with as he got older and needed more even for a single feeding).... |
Please don't be so judgmental - not everyone using a bottle is doing it for convenience. |
@tsfisch - I completely agree. Breastfeeding can be an enormous struggle for many women! |
I also agree with @capguncowboy. We used the drop-in bottles also. They worked well for keeping out air and were super easy to clean! The dishwasher baskets are extremely convenient for cleaning nipples and rings. |
We had 5 or 6 bottles on hand with each kid. |
@tsfisch: Not meaning to be judgmental, and sorry to hear that your wife had a difficult time. I'm always surprised at the number of people who have problems with this in our modern day. I always wonder what changed, since it was an unusual (but not unheard of) problem in earlier times. I applaud the determination of b... |
I often advise new parents (of my acquaintance, in real life) to do it for just the first few days, even if ultimately it is not successful, for the enormous health benefits it brings to the child. We used to save the milk from the cow when she came fresh, and freeze it, to give to bummer lambs, because otherwise, they... |
Bummer lambs are those rejected by the mother, usually because they are one of a set of twins. If they don't manage to nurse in that first day, no matter what, they die. Human babies are (thank goodness) not this sensitive, but the benefits are still very good. |
I'd say your wife did breastfeed but had to use supplements much earlier than most. |
I have nothing of value to add, but I can sneak in a 'grats'. :) |
Sometimes I HATE the fracking editor here. (I just lost a nice long post because I hadn't realized that it took so long to add it with an edit.) Anyways... |
My first daughter took a bottle easily and switched between breast and bottle without problem. My (now ex-)wife did the day feedings and pumped milk into Playtex liners (Drop Ins, I think? They are basically plastic bags), which we refridgerated or froze. I did the night feedings so my exwife could get a decent night's... |
My second daughter would not take a bottle most of the time (we tried many difference types of nipples) so my ex-wife got much less sleep the second time around and I found it very frustrating not being able to help out as much. |
One last thing: don't buy more than one or two bottles (nipples, really) until you know that your kid will take them. |
And congrats! |
@shrdlu: Regarding being judgmental or not, you said: |
'I'm sad to hear that you're going the bottle feeding route, but to each his own. ' |
The OP said nothing about breastfeeding or not. They simply asked about bottles. We used plenty of bottles in our quest to breastfeed to the best of my wife's ability. Hurtful comments like this did nothing for my wife's self esteem at the time... |
We are actually planning to breastfeed, but we are going to do the breast pump and all and eventually lean off breastfeeding as my wife just isnt sure how long she would be able to do it since she has very sensitive nipples. So we are going to go ahead and get some bottles. |
Thanks everyone for the congrats! Were super excited. |
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