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Welcome back to another episode of podcast and Color of The Podcast. I thought I was gonna <laugh> be on time with the last episode, which was due two weeks ago. Um, but I left part of my audio in Denver when I went to New York and <laugh> then I asked the guests to send me his half and he did, but I still had issues trying to put it all together and get it out. So I just decided to come and the next scheduled day. And here I am. I've had a bad cold this past week. Um, but I'm surviving um, so I might sound a little bit sick, just letting you know I sound different to you um, from usual. It's been a while since I've been here. RIP to the buzzfeed team. Um, you turned out some great podcasts and of course that's why I know of and Love Jenna of Pineapple Street media. Another round was a life changer for me and a lot of other women and I hope all the women who came through the pod squad team land on their feet and on other great podcastings because they're great producers and the things they put together are really great if you want to support the pod squad team. Um, there are people still at buzzfeed working on the podcast they have scheduled through the end of the season. So podcasts like Thursday kid, you can't go and support and that is supporting the teams that are still working at buzzfeed. I was in New York for two weeks um, while I was in New York. I was able to attend a few different podcasts events. I was able to go to get Ingrown live in Philadelphia. Um, the He-man woman haters club that was in New York City. I was also able to attend the gifted towns network celebration um, of their one year I was able to meet Mickey of wandering blurts who has done episodes out of Denver and on Denver and spends time here. Um, it was a reminder that there are podcasts being created all around us and it started maybe in Brooklyn and going to an event there to find out about a person who does podcasts that cover Denver and some of the local things we have here that deal with black people. A new podcast network was started by Ayana, um, who runs the current podcasts switch, pivot or quit. And I'll read this from her Linkedin posts on starting Maisie media. The first production from Maisie media is a podcast titled A Milli launched on September, 25th, A Milli takes listeners behind the scenes with women who have amassed 1 million plus in business. It's eight episodes of No Fluff first person narratives highlighting women who collectively have more than $60, million in annual revenue, $5, million in social followers, and have a mass more than $160 million in funding, which is a major accomplishment considering it was reported in 2017 that only two percent of venture capital dollars went to female founders. I link her Linkedin post um, talking about Maisie media and what the network would do, um, in the episode notes so that you can click and check out her podcast which pivot or quit and the first podcast on Maisie media, A Milli. Congratulations to dr Joy who just celebrated 2 million downloads in under two years, her first year completing full Therapy For Black Girls was in April of this year. So that is a feat that I haven't seen done by many, especially in the independent space. So congrats to dr joy and the Therapy For Black Girls podcasts. And, if you haven't checked it out, obviously, obviously you can see that other people are taking to it and it is spreading fast. So a great podcast to checkout or share with others that you think it could help. There are only a few <laugh> white women in podcasting that like, I truly, really fuck with. Women, that if they pulled that thing, that, that chick pulled on twitter the other night uh, you know, where the N words of whatever I would be really sad. And Carrie of PRX is one of those people only Carrie of PRX <laugh> giving a talk about Google podcast in a nice way. Lately, you know, since they announced their new foray into podcasting this summer, um, I'm talking about how much they aren't doing or what I don't think is gonna be great about what they're doing because it didn't feel like they were really trying. Well, it was announced this week that Google podcasts is teaming up with PRX. This is from the tech crunch article on PRX teaming up with Google. PRX is teaming up with Google, the idea is to focus on empowering and training underrepresented people offering free educational tools and showcasing their work as a part of the program which kicks off in January, 12 teams will receive seed funding, training and mentorship. Those who are interested can apply until November, 18th. And of course I'll link that to, I'll link that in the show notes. So it saying they're going to have 12 teams. All teams are gonna receive seed funding, training and mentorship. So uh, it looks like they're almost doing, it feels like they're almost doing what Spotify was kind of doing before, but not, not necessarily focusing just on women um, and they're doing it in a bigger way. Um, I don't have more information on this, maybe I'll inquire to see if somebody like to do an interview to talk about this a little bit more, but it sounds interesting and I do hope you all apply. So of course, as I said, I'll link that in the show notes. Um, so that you can apply and look to see more information on it. Um, I literally only read up on this um, as I was writing the intro to this episode only to find out my other babbage, which is Jennifer Pineapple Street, um, the part am always mentioning is doing this. And um, if you look on the PRX application um, on the bottom, it says if you go to their website for this, um, outside of the tech crunch article, and if you just wanna go to that site right now, it would be google.cP.prx.org, Google C as in cat, P as in Paul, Dot p, r x.org. And if you scroll to the bottom, it says advisory committee um, is Genna Wise Berman, the co-chair and Ahmed Dashi is a co-chair, um, who I haven't heard of. Um, it's Genna Wise Berman of the co-founder of Pineapple Street media. If you scroll all the way down, you'll see on the bottom the advisory committee, so it looks like the people that will be choosing everyone after they submit is Genna Wise Berman. She's a co-chair um, of course she's the Co-founder of Pineapple Street media. And then the other person is a Ahmed Dashi who was the other co-chair, and he is a serial entrepreneur who had started companies and the technology and consumer Internet space. He's now branded out to start IVM podcast that focuses on making podcasts lots of podcasts. He wants IVM podcast to be the premier destination for spoken word content in <inaudible>. So in working with Carrie at PRX and Jenna at Pineapple Street, I mean those are the two people I would pick if I was to do something. So anyhow, moving on, I'll be in Boston the first weekend in November for the sound education conference, talking about building online communities and I'm thinking about doing a meetup. Anybody in Boston let me know. I mean even if there's only one person I am down to meet up, go to breakfast or maybe go get a drink or something. It's hard for me to take in content about police killings, movies, books, any of it. Um, but if you heard about the Van Dyke trial out of Chicago, there is a podcast covering it called 16 shots and I will link that in the episode notes. They've been covering the entire trial and most likely will cover the verdict that happened last week. The hashtag pods in color has been used over sixty thousand times on Instagram and I wanna thank you all for uh, using the hashtag on Instagram and your post in your stories really using it allover social media Twitter it's been used so many times, Facebook it's used a lot, I appreciate it, I appreciate you spreading the word um, Instagram is a huge place for podcast and the hashtag kept this people fine other podcast and uh, then they find, you know, the community of podcast and fellows so I appreciate you using pods and color. Please keep using it, it really does help. Today's interview is with FavyFav of Latinos Who Lunch. I have really fun talking to him. I hope you enjoy this interview and he'll be in Colorado later this month. So if I organize a meetup or anything while he's in town, of course I'll put that on the next podcast and across my social media. So to start with, thank you for joining me today. And what do you like to go by? I noticed, this is one thing that I notice with people is that like if you don't have to say your name or anything a lot, like you don't assign like people assume or no, and I was like, I don't, I don't know what is most comfortable thing. Uh, uh, you know what? I don't even, I don't even know anymore. That's the status bar. <laugh> I don't even know who I am Barry help me. <laugh> What is your name? Um. <laugh> What does people call you? Well, my legal name is Justin Favela, but my, my internet name is FavyFav. Okay. So in FavyFav is like my high school nickname that just kind of stuck. So um, a lot of people call me Favy. That's my, that's, that's uh, you can call me Favy or Justin. Okay. Well I call you Favy in my head and I feel like I'm not sure what I called you when we were in person, but in my head that's what I call you. Like when I see you don't like it, it's probably five. <laugh> Okay.Yeah, you can call me that. That's cool. Okay <laugh> Um, so I went, I always want to be comfortable people because I know I go by Barry, of course my real name is Danielle, but people always shorten it and I'm just like, but I have a name you can shorten, it's Barry <laugh> just like I have a nickname. We're good. Um, <laugh> Okay, so Favy, what is your social media where people, where can people find you? Well, they can find me on all social media platforms at FavyFav that's f a v Y, f a V and um, I was really a big Flavor Flave fan back in the day. <laugh> So <laugh> that's where that came from. <laugh> Still coming through. Still coming through. <laugh> Yeah. <laugh> Well I have to say I do love your social media, I think, I mean, at least to me it seems like your Instagram is biggest or less where I see like the most engagement that like everyone in your pictures that pops up, it's like hundreds of likes and people are like, I love it. Give us more. <laugh> I know it's all a lie. <laugh> <laugh> The curated life of Instagram. Oh my Gosh isn't that the truth? It's something um, so. Oh, do you have your phone out? That's what I forgot to ask you before we started. Absolutely. Okay. So if you can open your phone and tell me what podcast App or Apps do you use? Well, I mostly use Stitcher. Okay. Um, and um, I'm an early adapter of Stitcher, so I don't like change. <laugh> <laugh> So um, I keep using Stitcher. Um, but now I've found that the purple APP, as you call it, the podcast APP is improved a little bit because it doesn't download the podcast right to my phone, like it used to, which was so annoying. Oh yeah, used to autodownload. I was telling people that was like the hardest thing for a while, when the custom thing, was it autodownloaded anything you subscribed to. Yeah, so I've been using the Purple app for a few podcasts that aren't on Stitcher and then I use Spotify also. Mhh, I love it somebody like everybody gets on here and they just do one podcast app. So I feel like you're one of few people that had a couple of different ones that they use regularly. Like… Oh no, because sometimes like the read doesn't post on Stitcher right away, but it's on sound cloud or the, you know what I mean? We're all like that. I feel like it might be the reason keeping us on sound cloud a little bit. <laugh> Like I swear there's so many people that are like, you know, it's just like that first 20 minutes. It's only on sound cloud. So I had to keep sound cloud around <laugh> <laugh>. Yeah, it depends on my day, like if I need it, you know, I go right to sound cloud. <laugh> If you know what's up and you have the time, you need it to be there. Right then I understand. Mhh. So okay, with Stitcher, do you do Stitcher premium at all? Or are you just on the free side of Stitcher? No, I'm on the free side. I don't, I'm not paying for that. No Way. <laugh> They already put Ads in in between podcast. Why would I pay for it? Like I don't know, I think, yeah. They're trying to do like original programming and stuff, but… Yeah, it's, it's been a while. I'm gonna, I'm gonna have a late episode coming um, which would be the episode that actually before this where I kind of input some stuff from one of their Stitcher podcast talking about their premium. But yeah, I've had it like, my thing is I've seen them developing, um, like they have a couple of black podcast coming out but there's one coming out tomorrow and then one October on the premium side and they've done some before, but it's just like a couple. So it was like if I have hundreds of podcasts out that are free, what makes me wanna go sign up for just like three or four podcasts behind a paywall. I don't know, it's Kind of hard. But… Yeah, It is what it is. I always try to see if other people do premium or if I'm just the hater this like why would I pay more? <laugh> I think we're just both haters. <inaudible> <laugh> We could be, we could be. Okay. So we know what podcasts Apps, do you use a few, couple different Apps? Um, can you give me some of the podcasts that you're subscribed to across the Apps? Oh my gosh. Okay. Um, well let me just open it up and see. You know, what I don't like about Stitcher right now they totally changed it. So I had a custom order before… Mh. And now it's doing it like by episodes… Mhh. Like by the newest episodes and or I can go by shows and that is the custom order. But anyway, let's see. So I have right now on my, on the top of my shows on Stitcher, unravel a fashion podcast. Um, let's see. dr Death is a new podcast by Wondery about this white man that's just killing people and nobody's checking them because white people get away with everything. Um, let's see. Insecurity. Yeah. Um, whimsically volatile it's a podcast with Katia, the drag… Any, pretty much any uh, podcasts with drag queens I'm listening to it. So that's the following couple unbearable with Big Dipper and Meatball, Race Chasers with Alaska Thunderfuck and Willem, podcasts and color, The podcasts. Thank you. <laugh> Mhh. Marsha played a sibling rivalry with Bob The drag Queen and Monique's change. So yeah, those are just a few… Mhh. Um, from my list. Okay. Well I like that, that's pretty obviously like outside of what I would normally listen to. There's a few on that list like Marsha's played, I've been turning into, but the rest not really. So is that more because of Rupaul's drag race or that's just your life in that's, like what attracts you to those podcasts? Yeah, I'm a huge Rupaul's drag race. <laugh> So anything. Yeah. So that's what I used to do back in the day. Like if I found a drag queen I loved, I would just, you know, put it in the search. Um, I know you can do that with like different podcast Apps. You can search for somebody's name and just see all the podcasts that pop up. Mhh. And I would just listen to every single… That's how I found a lot of these podcasts. Mhh. Um, so yeah, it's uh, definitely uh, Rupaul's drag race fan. Not so much a RuPaul fan recently <laugh> <laugh> A lot behind that <laugh> Mh, mh, but um, definitely, he's, he's definitely made an impact when it's come to a visibility for, for this drag culture. So yeah. Oh yes. So I mean we're seeing where it goes. I see that like his way is gonna be just the float through this and anything <laugh> anybody has to say about how he feels about things. So that's something <laugh> going on. Um, okay. So in all of those, even if it's ones that you didn't mention, um, in the App that you were talking about subscribe to. Do you have a podcast top five? Oh my gosh, I was dreading this part. <laugh> I think you know what, I wrote it down because I really thought about it. Let me look. Let me look. Okay. Okay. Top five and this is just like you said, um, Latinos Who Lunch when I talked to you. <laugh> <laugh> Um, this is the top five now, right now… Mh. That I'm like the most excited about and we already know we're the biggest fans of the read, so I'm not gonna include the read. Okay. Okay. So I got uh, from Dallas, Texas. I love De Colores radio. Okay. Um, De Colores collective. They're awesome. And they talk, they do like hot topics and then they'll interview somebody. Um, and then we have of course Tea with Queen and J. Oh my gosh. I am so happy that um, I went to your meetup in Harlem Yess. And I met Genisia and I started listening to the podcast right after, literally on the subway back to, to Queens. <laugh> <laugh> And I've been listening to it ever since. Owe, I'm glad. I mean I try to do those things and they usually end up being small and I'm like, anybody could come, but like it just kind of brings another layer to inside <inaudible> and meeting somebody else in podcasting and then, you know, having other information and I see even Genesio loves <inaudible> podcast now, so like, you know, it's just the whole connection. I was like, I love that because you all both talk about things that are you know, true to you and the things you like, but it connects to each other. So I just, I loved that it was a connection made um, in the podcast. Oh my gosh. They am like I'm going to New York soon. I might. I'm in Portland, Maine right now. I'm going to New York on Monday and in, in a week and um, I'm excited because I think we're gonna maybe do a little podcast crossover I'm gonna interview them Uuhh So really nervous. <laugh> <laugh> I'm excited. Okay. So, I mean this is Dockers, but of course I listened to your podcast so I um, heard you know, that you're gonna be in New York. I'm gonna be in New York too, so I think we'll be there at the same time. I get there next Wednesday because I think you said you were there for a little while. Um, yeah. Yes. I think we're gonna be in New York together again. Just letting you know. <laugh> <inaudible> Let's do a meet up Okay, cool. I'm with it. So I'm excited about all of that and thank you for coming to the branch and he's talking about a branch. I was in New York earlier and I give anybody the option to come. I usually pick a branch place and say, did you know, come branch me, let's meet up. And it's just usually just a few people, like five or six people and we talk about everything we like and everybody likes podcasts. So it's a normal thing nobody's like explaining what's going on. <laugh> It's just a deep conversation and by the end you have a whole bunch of new podcast to try because we've talked about them the entire time. So just something if I'm in town or if anybody is in town, they offered to talk about podcasts, go it's fun at least to me. Um… Yeah, it was great. And I, you know, I wasn't sure like uh, uh, if, you know, a lot of times as like a white Latino. I'm like, I don't know if I belong in this space, but I was like, fuck it, I love it Barry I'm gonna go. Oh please, like… <laugh> <laugh> Am gonna see what happens. Anybody I would have loved it, could have been just <inaudible>. I'm like, I'm looking at a person that if one person shows up to something I do, like, we are at least gonna be able to talk. Like I'm not going to be talking to myself. So <laugh> At least I have that. Okay. So we did mention your podcast, which is called Latinos Who Lunch and I was on your podcast earlier this year when you were visiting Denver. Yeah. Um, so can you tell us a little bit about your podcast? Yeah, well I didn't finish my top five yet. <laugh> Oh, I'm sorry. Look at me interrupting the thing. There we go. <laugh> Well Okay, well let me just do it again. So De Colores radio… Then t v q and j that's where we got stopped. <laugh>. Mh, mh. Then there's this podcast with two drag queens in, in New York, uh, Grizzly Kiki. They're both Latinas, they're hilarious. Uh, then, uh, I love my music podcast, my Latino music podcasts or radio Menea and song Mess. I'm always listening to those two. I see song Mess so much lately. It seems like maybe they're growing, but it feels like I see something about them like every week. Yeah, I think uh, Richard, Richardthina as I call him, he's in Mexico city, so he's doing a lot of, he's sometimes comes out with like two episodes a week, so that's probably why you're seeing them a lot. He got the content coming. Got It. <laugh> He knows how to keep it coming. Okay. Um, so as I was saying, interrupting your top five, but um, your podcast is named Latinos Who Lunch and can you tell us about your podcast? Yeah, so Latinos Who Lunch was started I think a couple years ago now, and it was started by me and my friend Bob Alito, Aka Dr Emanuel Ortega, who is uh, Art Historian and I'm an artist and um, I am just an avid podcast listener. So from the very beginning, uh, you know, it was mostly NPR stuff that I would hear and then I started listening to a lot of comedy podcasts and eventually I found podcasts like the Read and uh, For Colored Nerds and I'm like, I wish there was a podcast with like two Latinos just shooting the shit just talking. And after the read, which is like two queer people of Color… Mh. I'm like, why? I haven't found a podcast that's like two Queer Latino just talking. And so finally one day I was like, fuck it, let's just start our own podcast. And we started recording our conversations. Well, at first it started during lunch and then people told us they didn't like the chewing. <laugh> <laugh> So now we record them after having lunch. Yeah. Oh you know. So we've, <laugh> we've been doing the podcast, I think we have over 115, uh, recordings because we used to do mini episodes, but now they're just full episode. Okay. And I do like, I mean this is something you would, even when you're traveling because you travel a lot because of your art, at least a lot to me, um, that, you know, you're in different states and then you're um, setting up the different things you're doing that you still commit to, you know, except during the summer, I think you all took a little bit of a break but commit to uh, taping while traveling. And I appreciate that. Like while you're all across the world telling us about all your cool adventures. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Um, yeah, that's been hard. And um, but we were gonna to it. We're gonna keep going and releasing content every week. Um, we've actually been thinking about re-releasing some old episodes because I know that podcast do oncore episodes once in a while when they need to take a break. But yeah, I don't, I don't think we've missed a week since we started. Owe. That's not something many can say. I know it's not something I can say. Um, <laugh> <laugh> Let's see, um, with your podcast, is there like an episode that you would tell people to start with or an episode people mentioned a lot there that are like, this is how I get people hooked to your podcast. I tell him, listen to this episode. They love it and they go, listen everything else. Oh my gosh, uh, uh, pretty much any episode after episode eight. Okay. I think that's when we got our new equipment. <laugh> <laugh> You could actually hear us. Um, let's see what I mean, I really liked the episode. I think it's episode 21 where we talk about, uh, the complexities of like new Mexican uh, Chicano identity. Mhh. That was really a fun one um, because we really get into it. Um, and then, uh, the one that we recorded called Not My Monument, I think is also a really good one where you kind of get political. I like the ones, uh, that we do that are a little bit more research based. Um, I think those are really fun to listen to. <inaudible> I think it might've been earlier this year on colorism um, and that one was really good. Oh yes. Um, it mentions <crosstalk> it in the Ta. Yeah. <inaudible> Didn't entitled, but I just remember like listening to that like, Oh yeah, you guys went in. Okay. What the History. Okay. <inaudible> <laugh> What am I still remember that. But I mean I've listened to a lot of different episode because that's just one that sticks out to me. Yeah, I mean it's hard to say because now our podcast is a little bit all over the place and, and now we've really, we've kind of had this formula where we do an interview and then it's just us two if we can, you know, because a lot of people just like to hear us talk to each other. Um, so we're trying to kind of cover everything, which I know we're not gonna be able to please everybody, but we also have fun doing it. So… I feel like, you know, as long as you're okay with it, it's fine. But I do love that format that you all include other people. So I get to hear about, you know, other people and jobs and things that I might not have heard about or you know, just things I wouldn't have heard about and then it's under something with you all but kind of being silly. You're talking about yourselves in the next episode. So it's like I feel connected but I'm also getting the information I know you guys wanna spread. So I like that. I appreciate it. I notice it. So yeah. <laugh> Okay. Thank you. Um, so I didn't say, so you listening to other podcasts, it's kind of what got you into podcasting. How have you discovered more podcast because it's because of you. I've discovered more Brown podcast and I will say Latinex podcast, but how did you discover like, you know, grow in that space. That's it. Listening to podcast, I tell all the Latino podcasts out there that are trying to get a bigger audience. Like when's the last time you shouted out another podcast? From the very beginning, I remember um, one of the podcasts that I would listen to back back, back in the day was Mark Merrin's podcast WTF. Mhh. And um, where he would interview a comedian and then the comedian said, oh, I'm actually, I actually have my own podcast, and then I would listen to their podcasts and then they'd have other, you know, so through there I just started finding all these different podcasts. So yeah, I mean the, the medium itself, you know, is kind of niche depending on what you're listening to. So I mean, I, that's how I learned about Marsha's plate was through a tea with Queen and Jay and uh, you know, just podcasts you find, you find out about podcasts rather podcast. Pretty much. That's what I think too. Like when you saying that, I'm like, I liked that other people see the same thing. Like it's not just me. Hopefully I like, this is how it should be. Okay. So question because you, was it earlier this year that there was the, I want to say Latin X festival. I don't know if I'm saying that correct but Pastereo. Am I saying that wrong? it's something near that. Uh, we did. Uh, we did uh, we hosted an event at a Latin X film festival. What You're talking about Podcastereo Festival? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Podcastereo festival was last November. Oh, okay. And it was all Latin X, like a podcast uh, festival in LA that we put together really quick in a couple months. Oh, I didn't know that was only done in a couple of minutes. It seemed really good. Are you all planning to do that again at all? Well, I, we actually have a phone call tomorrow <laugh> <laugh> To see if we're going to do it again, but uh, I hope so. I hope we do uh, because it was really amazing. We had uh, just from, from setting it up like two months ahead of time, we had 17 podcasts show up and set up their tables with merge and then we had panels all day long. Um, at uh, La Plaza, I think it's called La Plaza La Cuntura in downtown LA. So it was so many people there. It was so cool to meet all these different podcasters. People flew in all the way from like Texas and Boston, New York it was really cool. Mh. Okay, well let me know if you're doing it again. I am planning on doing something. I didn't wanna do it next year. It just felt like a lot of things were popping up. So I'm gonna try to do a conference the year after next in 20 / 20. Um, so like um, you know, just thinking of something in collective. I've been seeing a lot of people doing things and so I just want to make sure it's done right and like even if it's small, like I want it to be them with the details I want and I don't want it to feel rest because when everything I do anything rushed, I feel disappointed in the end. So I'm trying to treat this how thing I'm treating new things like <laugh> giving myself to flush it out, make sure that it's right in reaching out to sponsors and other things. And things are coming together with me just saying it. So I feel like I'm on the right path of saying this is gonna happen and when it's gonna happen for what I'm on. So we'll see. <laugh> Yeah. Awesome. Okay. So um, with podcasting, is there a number one podcast tip that you give to other podcasters? Because if you have a podcast, people always ask, you know, you know, do you have advice and things like that. Is there a number one thing we're like, this is what you should know or what I would tell somebody else with a podcast. I think you just have to do it. I mean, a lot of people are afraid to start or a lot of people uh, aren't consistent. Um, so I don't know like when we started, I, I actually don't know what this recording sounds like, might not be that good because it's like new equipment that I have, but… Oh no wait till you hear it. At least to me it sounds we're going to say almost like we were in the same room, so you'll just wait to hear it. <laugh> <laugh> But um, consistency's really important and just just not giving up. And, I let me know. I love learning so much and I didn't realize Latinos who lunch would become a business almost, you know. Uh, and so now, uh, now that I have like my art career and Latinos Who Lunched really taking off, I'm gonna to have to hire somebody to like manage that. Um, so I don't know, just kind of rolling with the punches I think and, and sticking with it. That's my advice. Leveling up. I like it. I feel like that's um, when you know Kefi's manager, Alex started like managing a reading or you know, started expanding and that's when they were able to, you know, blow up more. Like they didn't have to concentrate on a thing she was doing. So I mean that could be just the next step until everybody knows your name because I believe they will <laugh>. Your energy, the art, I love it. If you look at his Instagram, you get to see like some of the spirit of what he does and you can just feel the energy it's good. It's good energy. I'm not surprised when you're traveling other places and people are inviting you and giving you awards and things like it's well deserved. Oh my gosh. That was crazy yes. Yes. And you're like, is this happening? Yes, it's happening. <laugh> Oh my gosh. Yeah. The imposter, the imposter syndrome was so strong last year. <laugh> I feel like it gets like that because you're like, really? Really like, I mean, I know I work hard, but really like you know <laugh> in the midst of the work, you're like, somebody better think of me doing good one day and then they're thinking you're doing good and your life really, I mean it was okay. I, I did that. <laugh> Yeah. <laugh> So with your art I was gonna say what are you doing right now and is there anything anyone can see or go see in person? I know you do different things in different states. Uh, yeah. Okay. I have a few things right now, I have a show. I just installed a solo exhibition at the Berman Museum, which is in Collegeville Pennsylvania. For anybody that wants to make a little road trip who lives in Philly, <laugh> it's about an, It's about like 45 minutes away from Philadelphia. So, uh, the Berman Museum has my show up through December uh, 17th, I believe. And we're actually gonna do a live Latinos Who Lunched there October second, Mh. Um, which will be really cool. Am just <inaudible> Um, yeah. And then, uh, I also have an installation at that very same museum and a different wing and that'll be up through July next year so you could see that anytime I have artwork, uh, also in the UK at the Brewery Art Museum and Sculpture Center, a big pile of Nachos uh, <laugh> And then right now I'm about to go to New York and install work at the sugar hill children's Museum of art and storytelling and that's uh, that's in Sugar Hill, like in Harlem Okay. And that uh, that will opens up mid October and is gonna be up for a full year Look at you. So do you have anything how you said like some things are up for a year, some things are until next summer. Do you keep track of that anywhere on a webpage or anything like the ongoing thing? <laugh> <laugh> Sorry to stress you if you don't. Okay. Just asking, just asking. I'm gonna, I'm gonna get there. I'm gonna get there eventually uh, I do need to update my artist's website, which is my, my name Justin favilla.com. Um, and there is a news and updates tab there that will eventually be updated so people can see everything that I'm into, that I'm doing. Ok, well that's there. Of course, as I said on his Instagram, um, like we'll see different pictures of different art he's done across the thing um, the world and his Instagram stories. I feel like I could do that also. I love them. <laugh> Well thank you for joining me today and talking about your podcast and taking the time because I just felt like when we work remotely and we don't have nine to five, it can just be like, do I have the time, you know, it seems like there's time but you're always kind of working. So <laugh> I appreciate you taking a moment to talk to me. No, thank you so much for thinking of me. I'm so excited and you know, I am a big fan and ever since I found you because of the read and you know, uh, became, I mean submitted my podcast to podcast and color.com. I was just so excited to just like be on your radar. So this is such an honor to be on your show. Thank you so much. No problem. Oh, and you saw that thing the other day. I saw you guys, you posted it, but like this, someone came up to me at an event, a podcast event in Denver and was like, I found you through Latinos Who Lunch and I was like shut up like, you know, you know, things like that might happen, but then like somehow I feel like I could have like, let me just let you know, like this is how I found you. So I was like, it works. <laugh> That is so cool. I love our listeners are so cool. They're so nice. So maybe next time I'm here in Denver again, we'll have to have some type of meetup maybe. Um, people would come out and we do some type of, you know, she did it for people to do things. I'll be in Denver in October. I'll see you soon. Shut up yes, okay <laugh> <laugh> This is working out so you just speak into existence. Yeah. So we'll confirm that and we'll put something up because of course we got to do something. Cool. Awesome. Okay, well thank you and have a good rest of your day Justin. You too. Bye. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to another episode of podcast and color the podcast. Um, of course, feel free to email me if you have any questions or comments, podcasts and color@gmail.com. And otherwise I'll see you in two weeks. It might be one week because I kind of want to catch up and get back on schedule so we'll see how that goes. But at some point I will get back on schedule because I will have the amount of episodes I should have for this last season. I am doing podcasts consulting for the winter. Um, if you're looking to get a jumpstart on what you'll be doing in 2019, you can look at the podcast consulting button on the website and I'm willing to talk to you about building strategy um, for 2019. So maybe you're looking at social media strategy, your podcast strategy or thinking of things you can clean up or you just wanted an outsider to kind of look at your podcast or your website or your podcast, social media to see what you can improve and how you can streamline things so everything can be better in the future. And if you'd like me to do that, I am available for podcasts consulting. That will just be for the winter um, in the spring. I'll have other things to do. I am looking to add a full time job to my life. So I'm giving this time of anyone else wants to speak with me to give the time to talk to you about your podcast, to talk to you about your social media. So talk to you about hashtags because next year I'm gonna be a little bit busier. So if you are looking to talk to me, if you want to talk to me one on one, this is the time.
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Welcome back to another episode of Podcasts in Color, the podcast. I'm Berry, lover of podcast. This is a super late episode, but it's here. This episode will be on podcast tips, questions I receive a lot, and things I think others should know, so you can make better decisions about your podcast. So, if you make a podcast, this will be helpful to you. If you don't, I can understand on skipping this episode, but if you know someone with a podcast that has questions, I do think this episode will be helpful, and if you're listening, and you share this episode on social media, I would love if you include the hashtag PodsInColorpod, so that I could find it, and like it, because I will find it, and like it, and maybe repost it, and that sort of thing. Use it in your Instagram stories, and I will watch your Instagram story. That's the same with Pods in Color, when you're sharing your podcast, or a podcast you're a guest on, and that's the same with pod in, when you're listening to a podcast. I love watching all those Instagram stories, seeing what people are listening to. I love the shots of people's car radios, because it just shows that you're in motion, and that's how we are. Um, so just letting me know, um, what you're listening to on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, using any of the hashtags, I do appreciate it. PodsInColorpod, when you're listening to this podcast, and then Pods in Color, when you're just sharing podcasts you like, your podcast, podcasts you're a guest on, and then pod in, when you are listening to a podcast, when you're checking other people out, because it is a p- because it is important to support other podcasts, as many as we're creating, because that's how we grow. Thank you for all who have been buying merch. Of course I'll put in a merch link in the episode notes, so if you would like a podcast shirt, or jacket, or pullover, that is all on there. Even a long sleeve shirt, just so people know, um, you know, listening to a podcast, and you would like them not to talk to you, because that's what I'm all about. Um, first, I'll start with a few podcast tips that I love, episode notes. I will link to a few different episode notes that I love in the epi- in my episode notes. In episode notes, I look for what the podcast is about, and social media links for the podcast, and if there's a guest on the podcast, social media links for them also. I think the future of podcasting, and it's already showing in some of the newer apps, is that search in podcast apps, are going to search podcast episode notes, um, to help more discovery as we grow. So, if you're already ready, you don't have to get ready when we see that feature coming out more, and more. About some of the things someone will search, and you want them to find your podcasts under those search terms, and think about including those in your episode notes. This is a long game, and a new media, so thinking of things that will help you in the future, I believe, or you know, how most of the people that will be successful in the future will be successful. First, I'll start with a few podcast tips that I love, and that I repeat a lot. The first one, is gonna be on episode notes, and of course I will link some of my favorite, um k- examples of episode notes, in my episode notes. I look for what the podcast is about, and social media links for the podcast, and if there's a guest, social media links for them, also. I think the future of podcasting, and it's already showing in some of the newer apps, will be searching podcast <inaudible> are going to search episode notes, as discovery is more work done. So, you can think in terms of what someone will search to find your podcast, or what terms you think that people would search to find your podcast, and make sure those are in your episode notes. This is just like SEO on Google, and of course, Google podcast is in the game now. Think about the things that someone will search, and you will want them to find your podcast, like Tea with Q, and Jay is always talking about that they're a womanist podcast, so I remember when I was a guest on their podcast, I would say that would be something you would Google, to see if that you're coming up. If somebody says, Oh, I'm looking for a podcast that does that, is that something you come up on the first page? So, it's really about like podcast SEO, dealing with episode notes like, will people be able to find you from the information in your episode notes in the future, and as more podcast apps deal with discovery, and searching, you know, episode notes. Will that help you be found? Because we're all about being found. For my number two, it'd be a good social media profile. I love one that has an Android, and iOS link in the profile. You know, Linktrees are free people. If you do have an Instagram account, and a Linktree will let you put a bunch of different links to a bunch of different places. So, you could have Apple, Android, Pocket Cast, CastBox, RadioPublic, you know, all the different links of where someone could be listening, so they can find your podcast, or link that they can use on their phone for your podcast. My next tip would be, Google your podcast name while you aren't signed into Google, and this is something I do. I always sign out, and then I'm searching things in Google, so it's not just saving the things I search, and giving the things that they think I wanna see, because I've Googled it before. You would be surprised with how many podcast names you can search on Google, Twitter, and Instagram, and not find the podcast, because they are using a quirky name, or an abbreviation of their name, or there are tons of people with the same name, or a name close to it. Ooh, you're also gonna wanna search in Apple podcast. I've noticed that there's people that don't get the information that they put into where they host their podcast, that that RSS feed that they're putting into iTunes connect, is just reading that information, and regurgitating it to other people. So, they'll have their podcast name in the information, but it won't be in the correct place, so what people are post a search in Apple podcast, will sometimes be their personal name, or the name of their brand, but not the podcast. So, it's something to search in Apple podcast, and think, What do people need to search, to find my podcast in Apple podcast? and once you know that, that's something you can say. If you're an Apple podcast, you're gonna search Podcasts in Color. I love being able say, no matter what, if you're on Google, if you're in a podcast app, it's all Podcasts in Color to find a content from me, sin- I also make sure to go in those different things, and search it, to make sure that I am coming up under those things. You're not searching it, and then I'm next to you like, Wait, oh wait, do you- what do you search to find me? Hold on, I'll just send you a link. No, how do I find you? That should be easy, and if you're not easy to find, your podcast is not gonna get bigger. So, that's just something thinking in your head, are you easy to find everywhere? Are you easy to find, and is it easy for you to tell people how to get to you? So, if you're thinking in terms of steps, think about how many steps you would take. If somebody tells you over three steps to find them somewhere, are you really going home, and saying, I'm going to find you the 10 steps that it takes to find that person, or what I might need to do, and then follow back up with that person, so, just something to think about. Okay, next is, how to listen if you have a website. So, and this is something not a lot of people have, I've seen it on a couple of different websites, and I'll p-include episodes, I'll include examples in the episode notes, and this is for if you aren't bringing new people to podcast, your podcast is not going to grow. Every huge podcast has people who listen, who barely know what a podcast is, but they listen to that show. I really liked what Renee had to say about growing a podcast, using the Receipts podcast as an example, and I'll play that clip here. They gave you a show that does that on records. It's something that you wanna listen to. You want to be part of it, and you want to share it, and so you hear it, it makes you laugh, and you share it. They found a niche in that, and they've found a podcast audience that didn't know they would like podcasts. Yeah. They've got an audience that just had Soundcloud's, that would just press play on something that they would like, this certainly looks interesting, let me press play. Before you know it, they're listening to a podcast, they're sharing a podcast, they're subscribing to the podcast. They're communicating, they're taking part in conversation online, and that's what's kind of, that's what makes a podcast successful. You can have the big brand, you can have Apple like, put you on the home page, and things like that, but does that convert into big longevity of people talking about you online, and wanting to hear your content? No. It's about the hosts, and pushing, and pushing, and pushing. Say, consistency, cadence, with publishing, promoting yourself. Yeah. And, you mentioned Twitter as a platform? Twitter, Twitter's a good one. I'm not on Facebook, so I don't know how that works anymore. Right. But um, Instagram's a good one. Any social media, it's just mention the podcast. Talk about, anyway you can encourage conversation, um, it is super hard to grow a podcast, and people are still trying to figure out how. It's about finding a niche audience, and making sure that audience that you wanna target have it in front of them. Right. Which is the- one of the hardest things, because half the time, you want, you know what audience you want, but you don't know how to get it in front of them, or you've just gotten or- it's for black people. Yeah. Um, that you know, that's <inaudible> Cause we're all the same, aren't we? You're not <inaudible> look at all these black folks, we're the same people. Exactly, our interests the same, because we were black. Of course. And that was from Blackticulate, and I'll link of course, in the episode notes. Going from that, um, you know that I love hashtags, and um, the Receipts Podcast, of course, does use a hashtag. They only have a Instagram account, as far as having social media, but I really do believe hashtags are easy, because to me, when someone adds you, it can be confusing, and if they're looking for a response, or if they're just posting about your content, and wanting to direct others back to you, so that they can listen to your content also. And here's a clip for Phoebe, kind of explaining how hashtags works for the Receipts podcast, and how it's helped them grow. One thing that I will say, that I think has really contributed to the success of the Receipts Podcast that people don't really think about, is hashtags. That's what we use on to- we don't hav- even have an uh, Twitter account. Right. All of us have our individual Twitter accounts, and then we use the hashtag to speak about the podcast, and I think that really works, because you don't have to at anyone if you wanna talk about the podcast. You just write your tweet, and then you put the hashtag in, and then everyone can see it. So I think, you know, I listen to a lot of different podcast, and I often see people speaking about the podcast, but I can't find those conversations, because they're written at the handle, instead of having a hashtag that everyone can go in, um, and everyone is used to going to, and tweeting about. Because, if you introduce a hashtag like, halfway through, people are so used to atting you, so they'll just continue to do it, and so no one has ever been able to at any Receipts handle, because we don't have one. And that was Phoebe as I said, and that was another clip of Blackticulate, and she used to be a co-host of the Receipts podcast, she has since left the show. Hashtags are great, because they give fans a place to connect on social media, and that can be any social media platform, without the podcast necessarily needing to have an account on that service. Also, on Instagram now, hashtags are something people can follow. Also, if you're on Instagram now, hashtags are something people can follow, and that people use them in their own Instagram story. It creates an Instagram story under that hashtag, that anyone following the hashtag sees. So, another good way to spread information about your podcast. If you can get people to follow a hashtag, or use that in their stories, so that other people are able to click on it, and see what's going on with that hashtag, leading people back to you. You can also Google hashtags, and tweets come up, and Instagram I believe is like, usually the third, or fourth link, if that hashtag is being used on Instagram for you to check out what people are doing with that hashtag on Instagram. So, that's Twitter, and Instagram that are right away. If somebody says, Let me Google, let's figure out what this hashtag is about. That will lead people back to your content, if you're using a hashtag, and making sure that it leads back to your content. I personally don't wanna follow every podcast host, even though I'll love their podcast, it's just not always for me, the content they talk about all the time. So, a podcast hashtags, kind of give me a connection to the host, because my favorite hosts do of course, scroll, read, and respond under their podcast hashtags, so I don't necessarily need to follow them, and they don't need to follow me, for us to talk about their podcast, and how cool is that? I love it. You know, with the Receipt's podcast, with Insecurity, with Tea with Q and J, you can search these podcast hashtags, you can see other people talking about it, and talk to them, and respond to them, because they're having fun with the content, and also, the podcasts um, hosts will interact with you under the tag, and mention it, so that you can find other people. So, it's just a whole circle of things that kind of keeps you involved in the podcast, 24 seven, and you know you can find people talking about the podcast. That's one of a big thing for me, there's a new podcast called, Don't At Me, with Justin Simien, I think I said his name correctly, but because of how the show is is, is don't, and they use an at, it's not able to have it hashtag, so I haven't been able to find anybody else listening to the show. I'm sure people do, but to me, part of the podcast listening experience, is to be able to find other comments about the show, and be able to find other people that I might be able to talk to, or tweet about, and say, Do you listen to this? and when I can't find that, it's really hard for me to get into a new show. So, one thing you'll notice about popular shows, and so- shows that grow big pretty quickly, is you'll see a lot of chatter about them on different social media network, s and there's not always a podcast. It's listeners connecting, and just talking about the podcast, and to me, that is a big thing, with making sure that listeners can talk about a podcast, and find each other talking about podcasts. Here's a clip from Call your Girlfriend, giving information about ad sales, and this starts with Gina talking, and then you hear Ann, and then you hear Aminatou. My recollection is that, from the first one around the time we left the first network, we had in the range of 50,000 weekly listeners. Which is, for people who are like, I wanna start a podcast, and make money. It's like, I feel like that is, as I understand it now, kind of like, the minimum threshold for getting someone interested in selling ads on your behalf. Maybe it's a little bit less than that. Yeah, well like, we know-we know podcasts who are smaller than, like way smaller than that that sell ads, but I think that like, in general, that's a good thing. But they have institutional affiliations. Yeah, that's fair. Well, no… And so I think- really? So, we'd been going for at least a year, I think when we had this, these conversations, and had about 50,000 listeners an episode roughly, or so we thought. Like, the numbers are all- this is the thing about podcast numbers where Amina is totally right, is that they're all kind of a scam, and no one really knows how many people are listening to anything, with any degree of sureness. Yeah, it's super, it's super nefarious, and you know, it's like… Atom bomb. it really is. Since then, since this was recorded, um, the numbers of podcasting have gotten a little bit easier, because of the IAB, and they're kind of rolling out guidelines, and people are attempting to follow them, and being IAB compliant is a thing. And so basically, they're hoping that, with more rules in this space, and what people classify as a download, and a listen, and different things like that, it will make it easier for more advertisers to come into this space, and put more ad dollars into the space, and I'll link information on that, because you can go way deep into that, um, in the episode notes Call Your Girlfriend was a part of the 2014 podcast boom, which saw an easier path um, for some of those podcasts, for listeners during that time, because of Serial, and other things being released, and a lot of people learning about podcasting. Here's another clip um, by Call Your Girlfriend, talking about how much they- money they make from ads, and what they feel you could take from it. How much do podcast sponsorships pay? I don't know. It depends. I understand there's a wide range. How much does it cost to produce per episode? Well, you just heard eight, to 15 hours of Gina's time, so obviously, we're not being paid. We're not paying her, like an hourly rate that you truly deserve… Yeah Gina, you should really redo your contracts. Yeah. But the answer, in terms of production costs, is really like, the production cost at this point now that we've invested in equipment is our time, correct? Yeah. Sometimes we rent a studio, like the Huma Abedin interview that we did. You know, we rented a studio for that. We found a professional to record with Huma on site, They, the campaign took a photograph for us, we had that. Um, we paid for transcription, I mean, there's some stuff for special, special episodes I believe, shelled out a little more money, just to make sure that it really pops for you guys. Do we want to answer how much you podcast sponsorships pay? Well, I mean, I guess it just depends on the CPM. I think we even have like, different CPM, like every week, so… Don't take less than 20 dollars. Uh, or something like that. I think it depends like, how big your audience is, or whatever. Right. But, because I've seen, um, kind of like on our invoice list, like even per week, like, it fluctuates how much money we make just depending on-on what ads were sold, and what the relationship of the advertiser is. Right, but like essentially, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, and maybe we don't want to say this on air, but like the, like, we're talking like, you know, four figures to get onto our show minimum, right? Like, it's not like there's like a sponsorship for a couple hundred bucks. Oh yeah, there's definitely, yeah, definitely. And um, and no one asks, so… Right. One thing I wanted to talk about, on Instagram a couple of weeks ago, I did a poll asking people who have co-hosts, Do you have something written up, saying who owns what, if money came into the picture, and you know, so things wouldn't go sour quickly, and the results were horrible. I want to say it was like 80 percent, 20 percent of people saying that they didn't have anything written up of like, you know, when money comes in, or if an advertiser wants to come in, and pay us 2,000 dollars, is it 1000 dollars, and 1000 dollars, or is maybe 1300, and then 700? You know, does the person that's doing editing get paid more, or have more of a say in the space? Like, there's a lot of questions that I don't think people really consider, and you know, you could already pre-discuss that. I mean, don't we all listen to Therapy for Black Girls? Um, you can already have that settled out, so when those things come up, you're not all in the moment, and emotional about trying to make those business decisions. We've all seen the documentaries, and the singing groups, and wrath in groups that split up because of money. I mean, even New Edition like, how old are they now? And they're still having issues with trademarks, and creating new names, and things like, a mess. Like, if you haven't seen that, that's something to kind of read up on, because that still surprised me. I would've thought they would've figured out some of their issues by now. Um, and there was a thing with podcasts, that happened about trademarks, and you know, agreements, and contracts, and what needed to happen about that, and… I'll talk about it a little bit. Um, have you heard of ShoutOut podcast network? It's based out of London. They had the first black podcast festival in London in 2017, in August. The Friend Zone attended, they were one of the bigger podcasts, I wanna say the Brilliant Idiots went also. After the festival, um, it seemed like that's where things changed. ShoutOut London was really network to be on, I would say like, it reminded me of the beginning of <inaudible>, with good buzz, and good shows. And so, you know, that just takes, you know, a spark in, you know, the consistency to keep going, and it was becoming known as a network to get on in London, because they were creating good shows by black people. But after the festival, the UK podcasts, well, some of the UK podcasts that participated, claim they hadn't been paid, and then the shows that had the biggest buzz on the network l-l, either left, or disbanded, a few weeks after the festival. This is a letter from Satia, who was a co-host of Melanin Millennials, and talking about the breakup that happened, and this post is from a Twitter post, and I will link to it in the episode notes, so you can see like, when this went down, it was all over twitter, it was… kind of crazy. This is from a tweet, and that tweet is from September 15th, 2017. Um, the tweet says, Hey, congregation, sadly, I can no longer put off addressing what's been happening regarding the podcast. Um, so here goes: Satya here, co-creator, and co-host Melanin Millennials, parentheses MM, parentheses, podcast. Following some of the revelations about the Shout Out network, parentheses, son, parentheses, from my fellow podcasters. I would like to provide my perspective, and transparency, and transparency, on how all this came to be. It's taken a lot for me to arrive at this point, the point where I have no choice, but to put pen to paper, in order to shout out the truth. I feel I owe it to our listeners, to our concerned supporters, and finally to myself, as a route to moving on. As announced by the SON yesterday, they are no longer supporting Melanin Millennials, or to be more precise, no longer supporting the show with my involvement. Consequently, I have been removed from my position as co-host, and denied my rights as co-creator. MM arose, when my former friend, and current CEO of SON, Imriel Morgan, informally asked me to start a podcast with her. In September, slash October of 2015, I came aboard, and we worked together on the format, on our mission, and I christened the show with it's name. All were original ideas with no external input, and Imriel was not affiliated with SON, but became it's CEO, months after MM's launch. I was also told that her boyfriend, Efe, founder of SON, was interested in curating a network of podcasts, and that MM would be the first attempt at this endeavor. All this was done, on the basis of a verbal agreement. Prior to MM's launch, that whatever we, parentheses, myself, and Imriel parentheses created as MM, was ours, that SON's role would be to record, distribute, and no contracts were signed, until almost a year after MM's inception. On September 17th of August this year, I met Efe, and Imriel, and was a form that- and was informed that they would no longer go on with the show, on the network. On the 22nd of August, I received an email, Imriel stating her intention to continue with the show on the network, with new host, in a new format, something that had never been discussed with me. I also learned that SON had begun to look for my replacement. The biggest revelation however, was that SON owned the trademark to the show, and that they had done so without my knowledge, and consent. They began that process, on the 15th of September, 2016, as we were deciding on MM's future, parallel to the contract negotiations. I also have no access to all MM related accounts. The past few years with Melanin Millennials, I have dedicated hours of my personal time to create content, record, and promote the podcast, and to do so much of the behind scenes needed, to make the podcast what it is today. I did this for not any personal gain, but because I believed in our mission of amplifying the voices of black British millennials, celebrating our work, and openly discussing our challenges. I have loved being a part of Melanin Millennials, and am deeply upset by not being afforded transparency, agency, and ownership as the podcast has grown. I can not say what will happen next. I will say, that I do intend to reclaim ownership of the content I created for the podcast. This is the first step of many… telling you my story. I have enjoyed my time on MM, I am incred- I am incredibly proud of what I have achieved, and regret that this has been cut short against my will. I wanna thank all the listeners, well wishers, and supporters of the podcast, and my role in it, since its inception. You are what has made this journey so exciting, and fun. I've had the absolute privilege of meeting, and interacting with some of you. I hope you will continue to support me, and my journey, as I determine what is next. Love to other all the congregation, Satia, and she leaves her at, and of course, I'll link that in the episode notes. And so, that podcast um, was one of the breakout hits. That was the network to be on. Um, the two black women, it was two black women in the UK, talking about UK issues, and pop culture and it was original. I liked it, and mostly, LIT, is an example of one of the podcasts that left the network, but was able to sustain on their own, and even grow bigger since leaving ShoutOut. And so, it was a couple of different- it was a few different podcasts that left the network, at the time they talked about trademark issues, and then contracts, and there was a lot of confusion, and so, that's kind of why I bring up agreements, because you can be starting something great, and then, you know, being that things aren't being discussed, you don't know how it's all gonna come out, or who's gonna claim credit, or what credit is. And so, it's easier to just say right off, you know, This is what you own, this is what you have, and you know, this is what I have, and let's talk about it. ShoutOut, um, you know, the podcast network, went on this year to have a podcast conference, that was focused on women. Um, but because of the split in the podcast community, because of the things that happened with, um, those podcasts, and more, I wasn't able to find anyone who attended their conference to tell me how it was, but I did see pictures on the internet, and it did look like a fun time. They do have a few current podcasts running, like Wanna Be, And I will link that in the episode notes. If you would like to check out the podcast on ShoutOut London's um, podcast network. Also, Spotify chose them to run their program, to kind of mirror the Women of Color Spotify event they did here, and they're running that in London. Unlike our side, Renee from my last episode that you can see, is someone to know in London, and making her own space, and also has the background in podcasting, hasn't been reached out to, and I would think with the smaller community of women of color in podcasting there, that she would have been reached out to, to be a part of it, because on the United States side, the teachers they brought in that were women of color, they were, you know, some of the best in their field, and able to come in there and say, You know, this is how I do what I do. So, that's a little bit strange. So, I hope that kind of changes on, you know, working with that, especially for Spotify, because it feels like something would be missing if with Renee wasn't a part of that, especially if they're teaching women, and she's one of the most successful black women in podcasting, in London. To end this, we're talking about intellectual property. Here's a clip from a panel that Caitlin Thompson, who used to be with Acast did, talking about intellectual property, and of course I'll link all these panels in the episode notes, that you can listen to the full thing, and these are more on the sponsorship posts on my website, under the podcast in color news, pods in colored-, under Pods in color news. Just to say, what about IP? And um, am I selling out if I, you know, give my podcast idea to someone else, and what does that mean? And, and Caitlin, I know we've had a lot of discussion around this. It's probably worth talking about that, as a point, um… Yep, it is. Um, like I said, Panoply does uh, something called the Pilot Project, WNYC he did two competitions, one called the bake off. Um, obviously we're here to talk about Podquest. Um, it's not a matter of selling out, it is selling out, um, and that's okay. You should wanna make money for your, for your craft. It's just a matter of how you think about um, what is an idea that you wanna keep for yourself, and not share the IP of, what is something that you're comfortable, and you need a co-producer to be able to breathe life into something, and therefore, the IP conversation's a little bit different. Um, the way that I would urge you to think about that is essentially, what kind of idea do you have? Is this an idea that is going to exist for the next year, but probably become replicable, and I'll use the same example that I did just now, Call Your Girlfriend, a show between two women, on different coasts of America, is a show that it's highly, highly replicable. They sold some of their IP, when they went to a co-production agreement, um, because they needed help making it, and it's also an idea that, the IP is less valuable in this case, because it is a replicable show. If you've got something that- you have a book, I used to work with a guy named Stephen Dubner, he wrote a book called Freakonomics. You better believe Stephen Dubner owns the IP to Freakonomics. So, he in no way, shape, or form, would ever sell any of it. For him, he wants to turn it into a book, or a TV series, a movie pilot, um, multiple other shows, that was the right choice for him. I say this totally neutrally, you can, and should sell out at the right moment. It's just a matter of, what's an idea that you can not execute without help, in which case, it's worth considering, or what's an idea that you know, that might never reach a full commercial potential, or you don't need help to make it reach a full commercial potential. Um, you know, and I think for me, it's again, not a question of uh, is this good or bad, it's just more of a question of when. So after figuring out, you know, what you needed to do to get ads, you've reached out, and you maybe have an agency, you know, there's other things going on, or you're like, Hey, add whatever, a thousand, you know, a thousand an episode. I was able to get an ad, and I need to know what to do. I always wanna make sure that people know about dynamic ad insertion, and it's something most can do. It depends on where you're hosting. Here's a clip from the Wolf Den, explaining DAI, and how it works. Let's start with dynamic ad insertion, and we'll do a quick primer, and if you think I get any facts wrong, let me know. But traditionally, historically, all podcast ads were baked in, meaning they were in the recording of the file itself. When Mark Maron, or when Marco Arment sat down at the microphone to record their shows, they would record their ads in there, and that's in the file that everybody downloads, and now some companies that are in the space, are increasingly using dynamic ad insertion, which says, Hey, let me insert an ad at specific points, that somebody has marked in this episode, at the time of download. Did that sound about right? Yeah, and so the idea basically, is like when you have, you know, the kind of old way of doing things, every download of the podcast gets the same set of ads. Whether you know, no matter where they are, no matter who they are, and no matter when they download the file, you know, they could download the file two years later, when the advertiser has long since stopped paying for it. Um, and you know, they still have that same ad for a company, it's from two years ago, that might not even exist anymore. Um, and then we, with dynamic ad insertion, you're literally getting a, the ads spliced in on every download. So, every download of the file, can have different ads in it, uh, than any, than every other download, even to the same person. That's right, and typically, w- you know, the folks that are doing that, are doing it for a couple of reasons in my experience. Um, <inaudible> some shows with DAI, and some many shows without, um, but you know, you're doing DAI, maybe so you can cap the downloads, right? If a show is so big, um, you know, does two million downloads an episode, and nobody can afford to buy all two million. You can chunk it up into 500,000 download chunks, and sell it that way. You might be doing it so you can try to target by Geo, or by date range. So, if it's a tune in campaign for a TV show, and say, Hey, if it's between these three weeks, put this ad in, and otherwise don't. Um, the way we chiefly use it, most of the time is back catalog. So, it's, if we can't get your ad in the newest episode of Comedy Bang Bang, or My Favorite Murder, maybe, but you have a time sensitive ad, we can run it for everybody who downloads older episodes, over the next X weeks. Also, here's a clip from Caitlin Thompson, explaining why you wanna use DAI. The only-the only thing I would tell you is, don't bake in your ads, and the reason I tell you that, is because you're gonna have to edit them out at some point. Um, you can have any sort of ad served to- dynamically, and I'm, you know, obviously work for a platform that does dynamic ad insertion, but having worked, and been friends with the Serial team, who had to go back, and edit out MailChimp ads for hours, and hours, and hours, what I can tell you is, there's almost no benefit in selling your show um, with a baked in ad, because that ad will sit with your show forever, after- long after you've cashed the check from the advertiser, and you don't make any new money, for the people two years down the road who discovered your show, right? DAI is interesting, because this past week, Welcome to Night Vale ended their episode, and it was episode 133, with three different ways using DAI, and this is from Hot Pod, this quote, and I'll of course, linked to Hot Pod if you're not subscribed, it is a podcast newsletter, and from here, it says… Here's the deal. Are you sure? The podcasts 133rd episode, features three different endings, that are delivered to listeners at random. The team relied on dynamic insertion technology, the increasingly am-ambiguous podcast tool that had- up to this point, had mostly been used for ads to build the experience. Quote, dynamic insertion is a fascinating technology to me, that different people can download different versions of an episode. Quote, said Joseph Fink, co-creator of Welcome to Night Vale. When we spoke over the phone about the experiment, a few weeks ago. Quote, it's kind of baffling that nobody's tried this before, quote, the Night Vale crew, who's ad sales are handled by PRX, and whose podcasts are handled by PRX's dovetail platform, only created three endings, because they were told that that was a maximum number the platform could reliably handle at this time. Isn't that interesting? And they were talking um, to the writers over at Hot Pod about that, and I just thought, Wow, so, you know, you gotta think about what dynamic and it-ad insertion can do for ads, and then also, you know, what you could creatively do with it in the future, with your podcast. You should really listen to the Wolf Den episode, because they talk about DAI, and how, what people can do with dynamic ad insertion, and who they can push it to, um, and what they can get down to when they're deciding what ad goes to what person. So, just something more to be interested in, if you're thinking about doing that, especially with bigger companies. Okay. So, um, let's talk about premium, because there are some people that have premium. I've talked a lot of myths about Stitcher premium, um, and so let's go into what it means to kind of, be on Stitcher premium, and this is from the Wolf Den podcast, which is hosted on Stitcher. There are shows that are small right now, that we can't make incredibly lucrative offers to on the ad sale side, because you know, if your show in quotes, only reaches uh, 30,000 downloads an episode, uh, what our ad sales can do for you is limited. But, if we can bundle in a premium component, and so you can tell people, By the way, you can hear a bonus episode twice a month, if you sign up for Stitcher premium, we give you a cut, because whoever you, you know, it's based on effectively, how many people are listening to your things, but you get a cut of the premium revenue, and we get a cut of the revenue obviously. And then stupidly, Apple also does, and if we can set things up uh, so that you're getting extra sources of income, we feel like that's good for podcasting, right? It's, it's finding more ways to entertain the folks who are so engaged, that they wanna- that are willing to pay more to listen, and it's finding extra revenue sources, more predictable, and recurring revenue sources, than ads that are maybe a little bit more immune to, uh, you know, um, what's going on with the economy, or what ad sale, ad buyer whims are, and that sort of thing. So, that kinda gives you a breakdown of why they would say, know, to join premium, especially for smaller shows, Stitcher hosts shows like Lavar Burton reads, and you can get access to episodes like, a week early, or a few days early if you're a subscriber. Um, they also have FRUIT, that was done by Issa Rae, and that was a fictional podcast, that was based on a football player that I believe was bi, and so if you look um, on Apple podcast, FRUIT has the first season there, but if you wanna hear the second season, that is only behind the premium wall for Stitcher. And um, coming out this week, which is on September the 12th, um, Stitcher premium will be adding a new black show, called Culture Genius, which is done by um, the women over at Black p-Joy mix tape, and I'll play that clip here. What's up? This is Amber Jay Phillips, the high priestess of black joy. And this again Jaz, the king of the south. And you might know us from our other podcast, The Black Joy Mixtape. Ayy, what do you do? Owww, but we have a new show called Culture Genius, a black as fuck game show. Jazmine, and I bring guests into the studio every week, and we ask some questions that you know, some of them you might know, some of them are myth, but they let us know more about black culture, and black communities in general. I do hope you support the Culture Genius podcast. That was a good, small preview, and as I said, I'll link the entire preview in the episode notes, and with the clip we heard about Stitcher premium, we know what it takes for a good podcast to do well on Stitcher premium, so I do hope that you go, and support Culture Genius. I will be doing that, I wanna hear what the podcast is about, and that's starting on, Culture Genius will be starting on September the 12th. Zane, also has a fictional podcast coming out, um, on, coming out called Purple Panties, and this is a show on Stitcher premium also. And um, I don't have a clip from the Zane, Purple Panties show, but if I do get one in the future, I will share that with you all. I do have podcast consulting, so if you wanna go deeper into any of these subjects, um, feel free to look at podcastsincolor dot com. The consulting link is in the menu, or on the top of the page, depending on if you're on mobile, or on your computer. This episode, was just kind of going over podcast tips I see all the time, and I wish people knew about, or new deeper about. So, if you do wanna go deeper, we can have conversations. As I said, I do have podcast consulting up on the site, and I will see you in about a week, and a half. I will be on time for the next episode, and that's on the 22nd, and I do have a guest for that episode, that will be FavyFav, from the Latinos Who Lunch podcast, and I'm excited about our interview. So, I hope to see you on the 22nd when I publish this podcast, and of course um, you can ask me any questions, use PodsinColorpod, you can at me on Twitter, and ask me questions. You can send me emails, and ask me questions, I do respond, even though it takes me forever on a email. If you liked this episode, and the information shared, please feel free to let me know, um, so I can know if you wanna do more things like this. I think I might do smaller podcast tip episodes for Patreon. So, something I'm thinking about, let me know if it helped. Let me know if it didn't help at all.
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This episode of Heavyweight is brought to you by the new Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch whiskey. It's whiskey that is smokey and sweet, Fire & Cane. This unexpected fusion is a must-have for the holidays. Forbes Magazine called it, a flavor bomb. Quite frankly drinking it is a little like sitting around the campfire and opening a tin of Bobby's homemade toffee. Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch, enjoy responsibly. This episode of Heavyweight is brought to you by Homecoming, a new series from Amazon Prime Video, out November 2nd. Homecoming is a television adaptation of the Gimlet podcast Homecoming. Did you know I had a minor cameo in the podcast version? And did you know that I do not have a cameo in the TV show version? Anywho, Sam Esmail, director of Mr Robot, teamed up with a critically acclaimed cast, including Julia Roberts, to transform that story into a real life moving picture. Binge television, made for people like you, podcast fans, huh? You know who I'm talking to. Watch Homecoming, November 2nd, on Amazon Prime Video. I'm just about to go to work. If this is an emergency, because this is the third time you called me today. Okay. Everything okay with the baby? Yes. Yes. A beautiful baby. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Thank you. That, you know, I take a lot of pride in that. God, he's nine months old now. Bye-bye. But you know, you- Bye-bye. Okay. I, I will respectfully let you go, because I don't wanna- You're, there's nothing respectful about you, Johnny. Because I told you six months ago I don't wanna be on your show anymore. No. Wait, well, hang on a second. And you are calling me, and I pick up the phone… Wait, wait, wait. thinking it was about something else. Wait… But it's not. you had said to me that you didn't wanna be in the introduction to the episodes, right? What if I were to tell you that this isn't an episode. It's a pre-episode. My God. What's the difference? Well, because it's not gonna be a canonical episode. Really? It's an anticipation of the second season. No. And there isn't gonna be another episode coming out for, for an entire month. So it's very pre. John, I don't wanna be on the show, period. You're not listening, as usual. The floor is yours, I'm listening. John. Yeah. <unk:hangs_up>. From Gimlet Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight. Today's pre-season episode, Milt. You have one new voice message. A voice message from my friend Gregor. Something about my podcast destroying lives? Must be a bad connection, I think, because my podcast saves lives. I phoned back to remind Gregor how last season my show repaired his friendship with noted vegan and baldheaded techno-musician Moby. In the sense that you forced me into like, probably one of the top three most awkward afternoons of my life? So it was a little, it was a little awkward in the room. But in the end- No, it wasn't a little awkward <laugh>. It was incredibly awkward. You're like a nightmare therapist who causes fights. Okay. Yes, you felt that way in the moment. I explained how making things right is often preceded by <unk:discomforture>. But the main thing was that people were relating to his journey of healing. In fact I say, The episode generated a very lively discussion on the website Reddit. Reddit. Wow, I finally made it to Reddit. Soon I'll be on 4chan. Thank you for that. When Gregor is done giving me the sass-mouthing of a lifetime, he explains that in the end the podcast did more harm than good. He tells me that the episode actually destroyed his father's oldest friendship. Destroyed, I ask. Friendship, I ask. The trouble all started, Gregor explains, when his dad, an 85 -year-old man named Milt, sent the episode to his friend, Sidney. Sidney hated the podcast so much that he sent Milt a letter formerly ending their 65 -year friendship. And that was that. According to Gregor, Sidney is a genius, and couldn't believe Milt had the audacity to disrespect his intelligence and remaining time on earth by recommending such a truly terrible podcast. And the time he spent listening to the episode, he could have done something brilliant. Sidney is a professor, the author of countless academic articles, and according to Gregor a true literary scholar. A Joyce <unk:seen> scholar, as in James Joyce. As opposed to Joyce DeWitt, who played Janet on, um, Three's Company. Um, anyway, very, very intellectual guy. Right. He does not suffer fools. So he's very much inclined to dress people down, set them in their place. That kind of thing. I had ample experience with that kind of thing. Case and point, Gregor proceeds to tell me in painful and gratuitous detail what Sidney thought of my podcast. Certainly the sound of your voice could make him angry. Among other things he thought a jejune middlebrow, and nothing but a load of chitchat. As with a lot of things that's said, I kind of agree with him, it is just chitchat. I mean, the podcast was just us talking to each other. It's not that- Well, I mean, you know, So- Socratic dialogues. I mean, all that was really, was two guys talking, right? Well, I think, yes. That's empirically true. But I mean, if you're a guy who's gonna be like, hey, Socrates talked, I talk, I'm Socrates… <laugh>, you know? Then I don't think I can get any point through to you at all <laugh>. Gregor says the letter hit Milt hard. He's lately been taking his meals alone in his office, and not speaking much to anyone. It's hard for me to imagine how my show could end a friendship. Sure, there were podcasts that could. I'm all but positive that TED Radio Hours destroyed tons, maybe even a few marriages. But not Heavyweight. My Heavyweight couldn't hurt a fly, and so I want to see proof. I insist Gregor send me a copy of this breakup letter, which he does. I'm gonna read… we're gonna go through the letter, okay? We're gonna parse through the letter, all right? Sure. Okay. Here we go. So it starts off where he says, after our exchange… Without so much as a 'dear Milt', the letter launches into a list of complaints, written in the style of an academic monograph, replete with annotation and appendicis. And then in parentheses, see poem about friendship, references to previous correspondence. So he quotes from an email sent 11 years earlier. Yeah. Okay. So here it is. Hi, Milt. And second references to age-old intellectual <unk:tirfors>. Not understanding the neurotic elements of the battle about the school superintendent. Okay, so this is a whole other thing. There are numbered sections, which contain lettered subsections. Bracketing, number C. So he goes back to subsection C, bar mitswa. I had invited you to my grandson's… And finally, there it is, like Gregor said, the stuff about Heavyweight. To quote subsection J. J, you sent me the link to a radio program Greg was on. I have listened to similar programs when I was driving. Very rarely, if ever, did I stop my reading or writing to listen to what I call, chitchat programs. Seeing that chitchat thing in black and white was especially picante. But as we read through the letter it becomes apparent that this friendship has bigger problems than my podcast. According to Sidney, while he always asks after Milt's family, Milt never asks after his. And while Sidney attends Milt's family functions, Milt doesn't attend his. And although Sidney takes an interest in Milt's work, to quote Sidney, When I dedicated a published article to you, I quoted William Carlos Williams, so much depends, to which you replied that it reminds you of the adult pads, Depends. So much for the dedications. The history… It seems Sidney isn't so much upset about having listened to an episode of my podcast, as he is about having listened to an episode of my podcast starring Milt's son, Gregor. Because yet again, Sidney was being asked to care about Milt's family in a way that was never reciprocated. Sidney's real problem, it seems, is that he's always asked to look and listen in on Milt's life, without being seen and heard himself. Although the letter reads like a legal deposition, by the end Gregor and I come to see it as something else, an outpouring of 60 years worth of hurt feelings. Their friendship began in 1954 in a rooming house in Iowa where they both attended college. Together they considered themselves a couple of outcasts, who drove to poetry readings in Milt's model T. Over late night bottles of Chivas Regal Sidney would share his theories with Milt about Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancer, and Milt would share his attempts at poetry with Sidney. Almost 70 years later Milt is now a published poet. But when he finishes a poem, he stills sends it to Sidney, whose judgment means more than anyone's. It never changed. The roles never changed. He was still the guy in his life whose opinion mattered most to him about his writing. He would say, here's the thing I did. And Sid didn't just write back like, nice, smiley face <laugh>… <laugh>. double exclamation mark. He'd write these kind of, like, um, a very deep analytical kind of read. Sidney remains a kind of big brother to Milt. This at a time when those older than him, that he can look up to, are dwindling. And now this unique friendship was ending, and the straw that broke the camel's back was my stupid podcast. I mean, well… you see, I mean, obviously, you see the irony in this whole situation, right? After waiting a good, long while, it was clear that Gregor did not see the irony in this whole situation. I mean, I have a show, its raison d'etre is to unite people. And because of my show, two men in their late 80s, who have been friends for the past 60 odd years, had a falling out. I mean, the end of Sid's letter to my dad said, go shove off. It wasn't a falling out. It was, this is the end. I'll never speak to you again. And as far as you having a radio show that brings together, I always thought you're a disputations' character. I, I think my track record speaks for itself. Your track record? You couldn't like tussle with a raccoon on the way to the licker store. You're never gonna have any success with anything <laugh>. No, no. I'm gonna, I'm gonna discourage you. Do you think that, you know, maybe I could do something to help? Okay, here we go <laugh>. Here we go. Because, like, helping old men like this is sort of what I do. Every one of your ideas is worse than the previous one, and you're building the terrible idea pyramid. Well, you wanna try, you wanna try calling your dad? We're almost at the top. Let's call him together. And now we're at the top. Like all Jewish men of a certain age, Milt probably hasn't answered a telephone in close to 50 years. Hello? As expected, Gregor's mom picks up. My grandchild, great-son, said… when he heard about this, he said, when a person is older he needs more friends, not less. That's nicely put. The relationship a person has with a friend is so intense and deep. A friendship, a buddy, wow. Yeah. Okay. Here you go. Hello, Gregor? You- Hello <unk:Father_Bear>? Oh. Hi, Mil- Hol- hol- I have Johnny on the phone here. Jonathan, how are you? Good, how are you, Milton? I'm good, thanks. Let me just shut my music off here. Hold on a second. Okay. Sure. Milt shushes down what sounds like a <unk:Narland's> dixieland jamboree marching through his den. And I ask if there's a way in which perhaps Gregor and I could help make peace between himself and his friend. Are you talking about Sidney? Yeah. I mean, he's very brilliant. He, you know, he's, he's written at least 2, 300 articles. He's a walking encyclopedia about literature. Nobody knows more than he does. But he's more trouble than he's worth. I don't think you realize how crazy he is <laugh>, and difficult to negotiate with. I tried to explain how there's nothing really that crazy about Sidney at all. Really, all he wants is more give and take in their friendship. But Milt is too dejected to hear me. I think he's broken up with me. I think he doesn't wanna have anything to do with me now, from that letter he sent. I think it's over. Forget about Sidney. All right. I'm gonna fix this, dad. Don't you worry. No, no, no. I, I don't want to fix this for you. I don't wanna fix this. All right. If you've given up, you've given up. I respect- Your mother's listening to the Dalai Lama on John Oliver. Hey. Yeah. <inaudible>. Yeah. He, he, he, he knows about it. He knows about it. <laugh>. All right. Mom's peal of laughter at John Oliver. <laugh>. Right. I'll talk to you later. <inaudible>. All right. I can't understand a word. I'll talk to you later. Okay, bye. Okay. Bye-bye. Gregor? Yes, sir. Okay. So you heard your father, that's it. But that's your mission on Heavyweight to, is to resolve conflict. My father is just feeling hurt. I've got to massage him a little bit. As far as I'm concerned, end of act one. And what better way to enjoy the end of act one, but with a message from our sponsors? This episode of Heavyweight is brought to you by the new Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch whiskey. Gimlet Media editor Jorge Just and I have a tradition. After each long week of podcasting, we sit down in the recording studio and have a celebratory glass of whiskey. Last Friday we drank Glenfiddich Fire & Cane. Fire & Cane is described as both smokey and sweet. Like, I very well tasted marshmallow. And I think of us as that. I think of you as being kind of smokey. Oh, okay. And I'm kind of sweet. And have you ever thought about how strange that is? How close we are, given how differently we grew up? I was an outdoor kid. I was an indoor kid. I was building campfires to keep warm. I was getting by on just chunks of <unk:pea> that I ripped off the ground. That's what I would eat. I was turning the thermostat all the way to the right. And I was eating apple rugelach that my Bubby made. But we're still friends. You're the fire and I'm the cane. Cheers. Chin-chin. When you want a whiskey that's both smokey and sweet, you shouldn't have to choose. Glenfiddich Fire & Cane is a unique marriage of flavors for all the unlikely pairs out there. Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch, enjoy responsibly. This episode is brought to you by jet.com. At Jet, you can shop curated brands and city essentials all in one place. And that what makes Jet different. It offers a unique assortment of local and leading brands. When you shop on jet.com you'll find a catalog designed for you. That's because Jet tailors itself to your shopping references. And it's smart enough to know that you don't buy bananas the same way you buy boots. So you get more relevant recommendations, and that goes across departments, from home and grocery, fashion and electronics. With Jet, you also get free shipping on orders over $35, and a two-day delivery on thousands of essentials. And here's the best part, you get all of this without a membership fee. Try it for yourself. Download the app today or go to jet.com. And we don't have to spell that. It's just jet.com. So what do you think about going vegan? You need some meat. I think meat is bad for the planet. I don't think it's crazy to be like, do you need to eat meat? I'm Wendy Zukerman, and on Gimlet Media Sciences Vs. We recently looked into the science of veganism to find out, is it good for the environment? And can you really cut out all meat and diary and be healthy? Many of us have been told that we need milk for strong bones. But some scientists are calling that the dogma, the dogma of dairy. Meanwhile, others say that there are big risks to cutting out meat. You may have hallucinations. You may hear voices. Oh, my gosh. So, should you go vegan? Check out Science Vs to find out what's fact and what's fiction when it comes to veganism. That's Science Vs on Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Wendy Zukerman, back to you soon. How was I going to fix this 60 -year long friendship? Sidney's letter was an emotional plea that begged for an emotional response. But according to Gregor his dad Milt just isn't that kind of touchy-feely guy. He's not a card giver, a bar mitswa goer. Milt didn't even bother attending Gregor's graduation, saying he didn't get all the hoopla. In fact, the only time Gregor catches a glimpse of his dad's emotional side, is when he's sharing his poetry. He'd be doing public readings of his poems at various events that I'd go to. Yeah. And I'd say, in 10 of those, in four of them he'd break down crying, and someone… sometimes me, would have to step in and read his poem. And then I started to realize that he was using poetry as the conduit or as an excuse to open the faucets in his emotional core, to be emotionally expressive. Sometimes expressive to a degree that makes Gregor uncomfortable. He'll send me a poem written about my mother to me. You know, it's not exactly erotic poetry, but it's not exactly not erotic poetry. <laugh> What do you mean? Like, give me an example. You know, it's like, I wake to the yawning cavern of your body. And I'm like, okay, I have to stop here. <laugh> Milt's written about his wife, his kids and his grandkids. It made Gregor wonder, had Milt ever written a poem for Sidney? We phoned Milt back and ask. Not that I'm aware of. But you wrote 7000 poems. You never wrote a poem about Sidney? No. But the question must have planted a seed in Milt's mind. A few days later I receive a phone call from Gregor. His dad had sat down and written a poem especially for, and dedicated to, Sidney. I'm so excited, I can't even wait to finish my cream cheese and jelly sandwich before conferencing us all back together. Hi, Milt. How are you? How are you? Good, good. How are you doing? Well, I'm fine. Thank you. So I hear that you wrote, um, a poem, Gregor was saying, about Sid? Yes. Normally Milt mails his poems to Sidney to get his feedback, in recent years emails them. But I ask if with this personal one he'd be up for phoning Sidney, and reading it to him directly. In this way Milt would be making himself vulnerable with a grand gesture. I was imagining something along the lines of that scene in Say Anything, where the shiftless, half-weight kick boxer holds a boombox over his head. But instead of a boombox it'd be a telephone. And instead of a young couple it'd be two very old men. After a long pause Milt says… I can do that. But then, after an even longer pause, he begins to equivocate. He's extremely critical. And, you know, he, he also wrote, uh, an introduction to one of my books that was pretty, pretty insulting. About, I, I write, I write poetry like I'm going to a garage sale, or something. Why would you publish in your own book of poetry an introduction in which someone is insulting your works <laugh>? I don't know. Once again Milt was presenting his work at the feet of the master. But this time it wasn't just for critique, it was to make amends, and win back his oldest friend. And that was scarier. Uh, why don't I, why don't I connect you guys? Yeah. Gregor, so we're not gonna speak, right? I think we stay out of it. I don't see… Yeah. how we could possibly do any good. Yeah. Well, because normally, you know I like to inter, inter, <unk:interlocute>, right? Yeah. You're an interlocutor. Call him up, let's… Okay. see if he's home, and if this whole shit is gonna run right into this iceberg, or what's gonna happen. I'm gonna get him on the phone. Okay. Okay. Here we go. I'm calling him up. Um- Hello? Hello? Hello. Hello? Hello. Yes. Who is this? This is Milton Ehrlich, how are you? Who is it? Milton Ehrlich. Milton Ehrlich, how are you? Okay. I'm glad to hear from you. Okay. Hold on. Thank you. Hold on. Okay. Thank you. Ho, careful. All right. Thanks. Hi, Milt, what a surprise. How, how are you? I'm okay. Okay. Go ahead. Yeah. I'm okay. The, the reason I'm calling is, uh, Greg, Greg's friend Jonathan Goldstein, he wants to, he wants me to read a poem I wrote to you. He's on the phone right now, I believe. Jonathan, are you there? Oh, yeah. Yes, hi. Hi, hi there. So it's a group, a group call. That's interesting. Yeah. Not only had Milt immediately forgotten our game plan, but he'd also yanked down the curtain, to reveal lurking in the wings Sidney's least favorite podcast host. But fortunately, before Sidney could start critiquing my work, Milt begins. Comment or interrupt any time you want. The poem is called, the Iconic Class. And I wrote it in, in… I wrote it in homage, homage to Sidney F. Okay. Words roll out of their mouths like tropical birds. Chivas Regal on the rocks, subtle thinkers and subtle feelers struggle like sweating sumo wrestlers… <laugh>. with a question, how do I live the right life? In impassioned all-night arguments, delight in the Tropics of Henry Miller, and the naked honesty of Molly Bloom's Soliloquy. Utopianists, rebel outsiders longing for communion and community… <unk:The_end>. hoping to change the mind-numbing deadness of schools, stepping out of mass of men, leading lives of quiet desperation. Where men in suits sit with glazed eyes, transfixed by screens, <unk:howl> for coffee or coke, waiting for long Sunday afternoons. A transformation where killing stops, and the dazzling spectrum of consciousness allows one to become more fully human. As slender <unk:thingies> of the sun seep into their chamber, they solemnly tread home, knowing the struggle to awaken a more <unk:abund> culture has only begun. That's, that's the poem <laugh>. I'm, uh, not quite sure… I mean, it's the kind of poem that has so many references to my life… Yeah. uh, until now, uh, you thought nobody noticed. Uh, if it weren't so long, I'd have it on my tombstone, you know? Uh, <laugh>… <laugh>. It's a- Do you, do you feel, uh, touched hearing, hearing this poem? Oh, of course I do. Uh… Yeah. of course, I feel touched by it. I mean, uh, it's not simply a, a poem that was delivered. The vehicle was Milt Ehrlich. I mean, he brought it to me. And, uh, that carries a thousand years of conversations, and walks and talks, and things like that. So hearing Milt's voice delivering this poem, the weight is a serious weight. It's a major weight. And, um, and that's terribly important to me. Well, thank you for helping to make me a better poet. Yeah. You know, we're, we're… we, we, we're, we're at a, uh, a new phase. A new phase. Okay? Okay. There was no reference to the letter, nor to their not speaking. In other words, not a lot of chitchat. But by the end of the call, things felt back to normal. So much so, that just as we're all about to get off the phone, Sidney says, as he always does… Say hello to the family, Milt. Say hello. To which Milt says, as he always does… Say hello to who? Nothing much of anything. But today, Sidney doesn't seem too bothered by it. <laugh> Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye. Okay. Thanks, Sid. Bye-bye. Okay. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye-bye. I asked Milt how he feels the whole thing went. And he says, better than he expected. But sometimes a person just has to take one for the team. For the greater good of the friendship. You know, one of the essential things about friendship… uh, I wrote several, several poems about it. I can send them to you. Sure. Uh, there's always, always one partner in a friendship that values it more, and wants it to work more. And it's like in ours. There's always one part of the marriage that, that loves the other person more. And because they love the other person more, they can tolerate being loved less. It's the same thing in friendship. Although I don't ask him outright, I get the feeling Milt is saying that in his friendship with Sidney he's that guy, the one who's loving more and trying harder. But I'm also sure that Sidney, at that very moment across town, is thinking some version of the same thought. And maybe in all friendships, if you ask, who's getting the raw end of the deal, the answer is inevitably, I am. But if the friendship has a fighting chance of lasting more than 60 years, that answer will also contain some version of, but it's worth it. Before we get off the phone, Milt has a question for me. The last thing he said, give my regards to who, did you hear? Oh, he said, he said to give regards to your family. Oh, family. I couldn't hear what it was. Yeah. You might, you might wanna email him to just say… uh, to give regards to his family. Or, he might be sensitive. What would this friendship do without me? Okay, good. Thank you, Jonathan. Okay. Take it easy. Bye-bye. Hey, Gregor. Are you still there? Yeah. I, I'll be the first to admit it, I didn't think it would go as well as that went. I have to say, do, do you see any, any parallels, uh, in, in, uh, in your dad and Sid's relationship, and our relationship? I mean, I think Sid's a genius and I'm a genius. I'll take that. Let me ask you a question. Did you know that, uh, I recently had a baby? I think you mentioned that. Do you know his name? What, are you deposing me? You've never listened to an episode of Heavyweight. I don't like those earbuds in my ears. They hurt my ears. Do you think we're gonna end up being friends like for the next like 60 years? You'd be a 115. Can you imagine you'd be a 115? You're already like you're 115. <music> Now that the furniture is returning to its Goodwill home, now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damage deposit, take this moment to decide, if we meant it, if we tried. Sun in an empty room. Or felt around for far too much, things that accidentally touch. Sun in an empty room. Heavyweight is hosted and produced by me, Jonathan Goldstein, along with Kalila Holt. The senior producer is Kaitlyn Roberts. Editing by Alex Blumberg and Jorge Just. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Stevie Lane, Wendy Dorr, Kate Parkinson-Morgan, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Matthew Boll with assistance from Kate Bilinski. Music by Christine Fellows and John K Samson. Additional music credits for this episode can be found on our website, gimletmedia.com/heavyweight. Our theme song is by the Weakerthans, courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Eli Shaw. Follow us on Twitter @heavyweight, or email us at heavyweight@gimletmedia.com. Our season begins on October 26th. You better get yourself a new pair of headphones, my friend. Because there's a lot of great stuff coming your way in season 2. Are you threatening me? I'm, you know, I'm working on some stories and some of them take place in Canada. You're working on stories that take place in Canada? I'm gonna go change my underpants. I don't like when you say that. And you know my friend Jackie? She, she's coming back, I think. She's just- How do I know your friend Jackie? You've met her several times. The name doesn't ring a bell. Thank for our sponsor jet.com. At Jet, you can shop curated brands and city essentials all in one place. And the best part? Free shipping on orders over $35, and no membership fee required. Try it now. Just download the app, or go to jet.com. Thanks to our sponsor, the new Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch whiskey. When you want a whiskey that's both smokey and sweet, you shouldn't have to choose. Fire & Cane is as smokey as Gimlet Media editor Jorge Just, and as sweet as me. Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch, enjoy responsibly.
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This episode of Heavyweight is brought to you by Homecoming, a new series from Amazon Prime Video out November 2nd. Homecoming is a television adaptation of the Gimlet podcast, Homecoming. Did you know I had a minor cameo in the podcast version? And did you know that I do not have a cameo in the TV show version? Anyhoo, Sam Esmail, director of Mr. Robot teamed up with a critically-acclaimed cast including Julia Roberts to transform that story into a real life moving picture. Binge television made for people like you, podcast fans, eh? You know who I'm talkin' to. Watch Homecoming, November 2nd on Amazon Prime Video. This episode of Heavyweight is brought to you by the new Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch whisky. It's whisky that is smokey and sweet. Fire and cane. This unexpected fusion is a must-have for the holidays. Forbes magazine called it, a flavor bomb. Quite frankly, drinking it is a little like sitting around a campfire and opening a tin of Bubby's homemade toffee. Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch. Enjoy responsibly. <unk:ringing>. Hey, how are you? I notice that we're not Facebook friends. Oh we're not? No. I think… didn't you try to Facebook friend me? I don't think I responded. Do you know how embarrassing that is? You won't even friend me. Jonathan, we're better than Facebook friends, we're real life friends. No, that's worse than Facebook friends because no one knows we're friends. Let's go to the internet right now and let's friend each other at the exact same time- No we're not gonna friend each other because I have to go to work right now. Can't you take the computer with you? I'm stepping out the door now and I have to get on my bicycle because I'm- Can't you balance the laptop on the handle bars? And then you could… we could Facebook chat. <laugh>. Don't you think that's a good idea? If like we both friend each other at the same time? No. Why not? One, two, three and then we press the button. Ready? <unk:click>. Well… hurtful. From Gimlet Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode, Rose. In 1962, the Beatles had their first number one hit, Love Me Do. A lesser known fact is just months earlier, the band kicked out their original drummer, Pete Best. The Beatles had their manager do the job. The lads just don't want you in the band anymore, he said. No further explanation was given. But over the years, different theories emerged. Pete Best didn't have the right hair, Pete Best wasn't funny or artsy enough. He didn't dress right. For a long time afterwards, Pete Best wondered why his old friends had kicked him out. But, he got married, started a family, ob-la-di, ob-la-da, life went on. That's what happens. People get kicked out of bands, parties, jobs, and eventually they stop searching for the reason why. Most people do anyway. So, I moved in to my college dorm when I was 17. I was an incoming freshman in the fall of 2001. This is Rose, and the school she was entering was the University of North Florida. And it's like a beachy community. I was like a cool surfer chick. I drove like an old Volvo that was covered in like band stickers. Rose was a rebel. And if all the teen movies I'd watched during the mid- 80's taught me anything about campus life, it was that rebels don't mix with popular kids. And at the University of North Florida, nobody was more popular than the sorority girls. You would like walk through school and they're set up there and they're along the sidewalks and they're like, Are you interested in joining a sorority? And I would just like blow by and my skateboard and be like, No. I didn't think that I'd ever be affiliated with it. With, with, uh, sorority life? Yeah, with Greek life. With the sororities and the fraternities and like the cool kids and their popped collars. Like I didn't think that was for me. <music>. So, the summer after my freshman year, I meet this dude and I start dating him and he's in a fraternity. And I'm making friends with all these people in the Greek community and I'm like, Oh, they're normal, they're not pretentious, they're not weird. I started to dress like them, I started to act like them and I wanted to be accepted. And the fall of my junior year, I rushed. And I got a bid from Alpha Chi and I joined. <music>. Sorry, the name of the sorority was… It's called Alpha Chi Omega. Alpha Chi Omega. And we were the Theta Sigma Chapter. Stayta Sigma Chapter. Theta with a T-H. T- So it was the Theta Sigma Chapter of Alpha Chi Omega and it was at UNF… Sororities. It was a new and exciting world with such a rich history. It turns out that Condoleezza Rice, Enron whistleblower Sherron Watkins, and Dawn Wells, who played Mary Ann on Gilligan's Island, were all members of Alpha Chi and had taken secret oaths to remain sisters for life. I listen avidly as Rose explains what it means to be a part of Alpha Chi Omega Theta Sigma Chapter. We are classy ladies, we are sophisticated, we wear pearls, we know our manners, you know, like that. Did they use the word classy? You're not being classy, yeah, absolutely. And they had like all these weird acronyms, like if someone came up to you and whispered in your ear, pearl, it was like the acronym for pearl, P-E-A-R-L, please engage in acts resembling a lady. So if someone says, pearl in your ear, that would mean you would begin to… It would mean like let's say I'm doing a keg stand at a party and another sister is there, instead of being like, Young lady, get down right this instant, because that's causing a scene, now you're causing attention, instead she's supposed to tap me on the shoulder and whisper in my ear, pearl. And then I'm supposed to be like, Oh you're right, thank you for reminding me. <music>. Rose took on new hobbies. Scrap booking with her sorority sisters, building floats for the Homecoming parade and dressing head to toe in scarlet red and olive green, the Alpha Chi Omega colors. And while she'd never seen herself being cut out for all of this sorority stuff, the crazy thing was it actually made her really happy. I was gung ho. Like I'm a participator. I got really into it. And just walking around school, now all the sudden like you know everybody and everybody knows you, and now you're in on the inside jokes. Like I felt like I belonged. Like I went from being a disgruntled outsider to being like the bubbly participant. Rose and her sorority sisters did everything together. Beach trips, watching The Bachelor. One weekend, they all ran a campus charity race together, but afterwards something felt amiss. And I remember thinking like, man I feel really tired after that 5K. And I'm having a lot of trouble sleeping and I keep sweating through my sheets at night. Rose also noticed that her neck was swollen. She was feeling achy and fatigued. After a few weeks she went to see a doctor. And I said, Can you take a look at my neck? Like I don't think something's right. And the nurse practitioner who was treating me that day just like looked at me in horror and was like, You have to go to radiation right now. And I was like, I have to make an appointment? and she was like, No, I'm calling the second floor and you're gonna go get a CT scan right now. So it was crazy. They called it nodular sclerosing Hodgkin lymphoma. I had huge pronounced lymph nodes all over my body. You could take one look at me and it looked like my neck and chest were just full of golf balls. Like something was wrong. But the time we started testing and staging, I mean I was a stage 3. This is like big kid cancer. This is like, Shave your head, Rose, like you've got real cancer. So I think around May I started chemo. Rose dropped out of her classes and quit her extracurriculars. Her days filled up with doctor's appointments and chemotherapy. The one bright note throughout was the support she got from her sorority sisters. They took her to concerts and Jacksonville Jaguar football games. They sold hot pink ribbons in the Quad and raised thousands of dollars for Rose's treatment. Alpha Chi took care of Rose, and Rose was dedicated to Alpha Chi. She was on the executive board in charge of recruiting new members. And even through her cancer, she kept up with her work. And new girls are coming through and they have to decide which sorority they want to join and now Alpha Chi has like one hell of a tale to tell. Now we're not just a regular sorority, we're the sorority with the cancer girl and we're saving her life. And that was something that they led with? That was actually something that was made explicit? Oh, I got up there with my bald head and gave a speech and cried every time about how my sisters were saving my life. Rose was lucky. By the spring of her senior year, her cancer went into remission. For the first time in more than a year, she felt like a normal college kid. I just had a lot of fun that semester. My hair's starting to grow back, I'm starting to get my energy back, I'm starting to feel like a normal person and like now I'm not just going to a party to like, you know, make sure I'm getting out of the house, like now I want to party. Like now I want to have fun. So I did. I felt like I deserved it. Then one night, after being cancer free for five months, Rose went to Alpha Chi's weekly meeting which met in an old auditorium on campus. And I come to the meeting and they're like, Hey Rose, can you stay after? We need to talk to you. So they clear everybody out and now it's just like five or six women and me. And they're like, Alright Rose, like this is gonna be tough, we're gonna have to ask you to resign. And I was like, Excuse me? Yeah, we're gonna have to ask you to resign. And I thought they meant from my position, my officer position. I'm like, You're asking me to step down as VP Recruitment? Like the new girls love me, I'm great with the new girls, why? I… I've got this marketing on lock. And they're like, Oh, no, no, no, we want you to resign from the organization. We want you to resign from the organization, we want you to resign from Alpha Chi. And I lost it. It's like you know that feeling when someone's breaking up with you and like you get that cold feeling in your chest and you know that someone's about to look at you and say like, This isn't working? Yeah. It was like that times one hundred. Like now a hundred of my friends were all breaking up with me in a very methodical way and I didn't see it coming. <music>. And I just kept saying, Why? What do you mean you want me out? And this is when they just… all of a sudden it was like these women I had known for years, they were strangers. And there was no compassion, there was no kindness, it was, You know what you did, Rose. You know what you did. <music>. And I was like, No. No, you have to tell me. What did I do? Did something bad happen? Rose, we're not getting into it, you know what you did. And I'm just like, No. No, I don't know what I did. And at this point I am so distraught, I think I'm like hyperventilating and crying… I think I'm ugly crying, I think like snot is just bubbling out of my nose, and I don't have the wherewithal to demand answers. And I'm like, So that's it? We're done here? You want me out? And they're like, Yeah, as of tonight you are no longer affiliated with Alpha Chi Omega. <music>. She was getting straight A's, she was on the student council. She'd never done anything illegal, but Rose was out and no one would tell her why. No one has ever told me. And did you ever pursue it further? God, yes. For years. Like, Hey guys it's been five years since we graduated college, I know this is kinda weird but I still think about it, does anyone want to tell me? I've like done the thing on Facebook where I've like made the big Facebook post where I'm like, Alright, does everyone remember when Rose got kicked out of Alpha Chi, like if you or anyone you know has any information… Like I'm still dying to know and then like dozens of my friends are like, Oh, I'm following this post, what was it, what was it? And still to this day, no answers. And like you're racking your brain, like, Did I get blackout drunk and sleep with someone's boyfriend? Did you ever see any other of the sisters get kicked out? No. No. And that's the thing, it's like, okay, let's not mince words here, like, was Rose a party girl? Yes. Were there girls who were way worse than me? Absolutely. And did they get kicked out? Never. Does Rose refer to herself in the third person? Yes. Does she present a puzzling riddle? Absolutely. And would Jonathan quit before solving it? Never. <music>. Rose's college memories have all been tainted by that one day 12 years ago, but her ex-sorority sisters are now adult women in their 30's. They had to be past the college drama. <unk:phone_ringing>. So after Rose and I part, I begin reaching out to them for their help. Hey Amanda, this is Jonathan Goldstein. Hey Trish, I've been trying to get in touch… Hey Anita, I was trying to reach you… Hi there… Uh Zoe, this is Jonathan Goldstein calling… hopefully we'll speak soon, Claire. I phoned them in their cars. Hi, hang on one second, our daughter's walking into ballet class, give me one second. Oh sure, no, of course. I phoned them in their homes. Uh, do you have a minute to speak? I do, I have a toddler, just so you know. Oh yeah, no that's fine. High on sugar because she just swallowed a bag of jellybeans. <laugh>. But yes… No I cannot pick you up right now, I'm not picking you up, no. I'm sorry <inaudible>. So… um… <music>. But not one of Rose's ex-sorority sisters can tell me why she'd been kicked out. Some say they don't remember, it was so long ago. Others say they never knew why. There were nearly 100 women in Alpha Chi but only a handful had been in the room when Rose was kicked out. One of these women was named Amber. When I phone her, she's busy but tells me to call back. So a few days later, I do. Hey Amber, this is Jonathan Goldstein, uh, I think we spoke briefly <unk:beeping> some time ago. Hello? I call back and Amber apologizes for our being disconnected, but when I ask her why Rose was kicked out, again the line goes dead. <unk:beeping>. This is odd. Odder still is a conversation with an Alpha Chi sister a year younger than Rose. She says she inherited all the disciplinary documents from Rose's year but that one file was missing. The one detailing why Rose had been kicked out. Things were beginning to feel collude-y. <music>. <unk:ringing>. Hello? Oh hey Rose. Hi. <music>. I call Rose to update her but it seems she's already gotten wind of my doings. So, I think you must've been reaching out to a bunch of different members of Alpha Chi? Word had started getting around on Facebook about some guy snooping around on Rose's behalf. Quickly, a consensus was reached. Shut this guy out. Just the way that some of the girls were replying and the thread, it just felt like 12 years hadn't even passed and- How do you mean? It was just like immediately this whole group dynamic took place and all the sudden instead of people acting like mature adults who are in their 30's, it was this whole like mob mentality of, This is sketchy, we shouldn't respond, and then everyone just started to fall in line, like, Yeah, it was sketchy, Yeah, I'm not going to call him. Yeah, okay we're gonna have to go over their heads. How? <unk:ringing>. Alpha Chi Omega Headquarters, this is Susan. The Alpha Chi Omega National Headquarters is a large brick building at the end of a long tree-lined cul-de-sac in Indianapolis, Indiana. It oversees all Alpha Chi Omega sororities across the country. Any time a sorority kicks someone out, it has to file a report with headquarters. I ask Susan, the receptionist, if there might be documents that explain Rose's termination. Okay, yes, I'm sure there are. Okay, great, and in your experience, is this something that comes up sometimes where people want to know why they might have been kicked out of a sorority? Or is this uncommon? Well, I would think most people would know why. Yeah, what happened in her case… this is um, a woman by the name of Rose Shapiro, and- How do you spell her last name? Shapiro, I think it must be spelled S-H-A-P- Okay, what a minute. S-H-K? No, S-H-A, P as in Peter, I-R-O. Are you- Okay, yes, I did find her in here. Oh, okay. Does it, does it say anything with… alongside her name? I'm just looking at a status. So, you're… so then there is some information alongside her name. I'm not gonna… because I mean I'm, I can't say anything about this member, I wouldn't know her at all. <laugh>. mm-hmm <affirmative>. You know, and you're an outsider, you're not the member. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, what… if, if Rose Shapiro were to call you herself, would she be able to find out the information? I would think so, sure. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Well, we'll just have to see. <music>. After the break, a couple of outsiders try to get some inside information. <music>. Alright, here we go down to the subway platform. This station's just a few blocks away from where Delores was living. Here, I'll swipe you in. Join urban investigative reporter, Ros Turnbach as she dives deeper into the world of Gimlet's, The Horror of Dolores Roach. Do you see that man? Depending on how long he's been here, maybe he's seen people go down into the subway tunnels. Navigate through New York City subway tunnels in a brand new interactive adventure from Gimlet Media. Should we talk to him or should we go to the tunnel? You control where the story goes. Choose your path, avoid death, and see if you've got what it takes to find magic hands Delores herself in, Finding Delores, an interactive skill for Amazon Alexis. To start playing, just say, Alexa, open, 'Finding Delores' on any Amazon Alexa device. And maybe, just maybe, get a chance to speak to Delores herself. Hurry! Swing your <inaudible> before the train gets- Good luck. This episode of Heavyweight is brought to you by the new Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch whisky. Gimlet media editor, Jorge Just and I have a tradition. After each long week of podcasting, we sit down in a recording studio and have a celebratory glass of whisky. Last Friday we drank Glenfiddich Fire & Cane. Fire and cane is described as both smokey and sweet. Like a very well-toasted marshmallow. And I think of us as that. I think of you as being kind of smokey. Oh, okay. And I'm kind of sweet. And have you ever thought about how strange that is? How close we are given how differently we grew up? I was an outdoor kid. I was an indoor kid. I was building campfires to keep warm. I was getting by on just chunks of peat that I ripped off the ground, that's what I would eat. I was turning the thermostat all the way to the right, and I was eating apple rugelach that my Bubby made. But we're still friends. You're the fire and I'm the cane. Cheers. Chin chin <unk:clink>. When you want a whisky that's both smokey and sweet, you shouldn't have to choose. Glenfiddich Fire & Cane is a unique marriage of flavors. For all the unlikely pairs out there. Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch. Enjoy responsibly. This episode is brought to you by jet.com. At Jet, you can shop curated brands and city essentials all in one place. And that's what makes Jet different. It offers a unique assortment of local and leading brands. When you shop on jet.com, you'll find a catalog designed for you. That's because Jet tailors itself to your shopping preferences and it's smart enough to know that you don't buy bananas the same way you buy boots, so you get more relevant recommendations. And that goes across departments. From home and grocery to fashion and electronics. With Jet you also get free shipping on order over $35 and two-day delivery on thousands of essentials. And here's the best part… you get all this without a membership fee. Try it for yourself. Download the app today or go to jet.com. We don't have to spell that, it's just jet.com. <unk:ringing>. Hey. Rose? Yes, hi. Hi, um… How's it goin'? Good. You ready to get some answers? I tell Rose about my call with Susan the receptionist and we hatch a plan for contacting headquarters. I think I'll call it and connect you and I'll just be quiet. Alright, let's call. I'm ready… I'm ready for this. Okay, I'm going to call right now. Alpha Chi Omega Headquarters, this is Susan. Hi Susan, my name is Rose, and um… Lying on my stomach on the floor of the darkened studio, I finally feel like a real life popular girl. As I play with the phone cord and silently nibble from a pan of brownies, Rose explains what happened. I was ejected from Alpha Chi. I was a member of Alpha Chi Omega, the Theta Sigma Chapter- Okay, and what's your name? Rose Shapiro. Okay, alright. I'm gonna give you to Mendy Tarwater. Okay, before you transfer, I did have just one more question for you. Is there anyway that you can just tell from a general perspective if I'm considered as a member in good standing or as a former member? Is there even, is there any- No, I think you're… I think it says that you're not in good standing. I wish I could help you but I don't know that. Let me see here… Mendy is out this afternoon but she's working tomorrow. Why don't we leave a message with Mendy? Um, sure. Yeah, I think you should do that. <music>. Rose leaves a message with this Mendy Tarwater. When she doesn't hear back after a week, we call again. Over the next month, we keep calling with Rose leaving voicemails and me, scraping week's old brownie crust from the pan while listening in. For emotional support. Okay, you're on Rose. <unk:ringing>. At the tone, please record your message. <unk:beep>. Hi Mendy, my name is Rose Shapiro… Susan the receptionist passes her off to other people at headquarters. Someone named Gina. Let's try Gina, hold on. Then someone named Eliza. Eliza Payne… Is not available to take your call. Please leave a message after the tone. <unk:beep>. Hi Eliza, this is Rose Shapiro trying you again, um… One morning, we phone only to discovered Susan the receptionist has been disappeared. Possibly for saying too much. Alpha Chi Omega Headquarters, this is Cynthia. Or Susan had the day off. Hi Cynthia, my name is Rose Shapiro and I'm a former member of Alpha Chi Omega… And Cynthia, she sent Rose right back to Mendy Tarwater. <unk:beep>. Hi Mendy, this is Rose Shapiro, I'm the member who… In the end, after months of phone calls, Rose finally hears back from Alpha Chi Omega Headquarters. They pass along a single document, a letter dated April 21st, 2005. The letter is brief, plainly stating that Rose Shapiro resigned from Alpha Chi Omega of her own accord. They have no other information to share. We know now definitely, the only way we're going to get anywhere with this is actually by finding a sorority girl who was there and willing to talk. Uh. Rose's confidence in me was waning. While she used to drop everything for one of my updates, now she was sounding bored and distracted. What are you doing right now? I'm cutting potatoes. <unk:chop>. Yeah, I'm cutting potatoes, I'm about to make some mashed potatoes. Yeah, but the cut… the chopping might not be so great, um… recorded. <unk:chop>. Why? My calls were becoming a nuisance. <music>. Rose, what are you cleaning out your fridge? No, I'm done. I was starting to feel done too. I had nothing but a couple weeks later, I get a call from one of Rose's ex-sorority sisters. A woman named Tricia. Initially, Tricia hadn't been willing to talk, but over the months she thought about it and had a change of heart. I call Rose to share with her our good fortune. As soon as you finish scrubbing all your cookie pans- I'm not scrubbing any pans today, I'm not chopping any potatoes… Alright, so… <unk:clanging>. Tricia wasn't just any old sorority sister. She was one of the six girls in the room who kicked Rose out of Alpha Chi. And not only that, Tricia and Rose joined Alpha Chi around the same time and people saw them as partners in crime. Goofing at parties, singing show tunes only they knew. She was someone Rose had legitimately liked and trusted. I explained to Rose that since Tricia was the only person willing to speak to us, she might be our last chance to get an answer. So during the conversation, we'd need to tread lightly. And I sensed treading lightly might not be Rose's strongest suit. <unk:clanging>. <music>. The situation required coaxing. Possibly even some cajoling and caution. Plenty of caution. We would need the perfect moment for Rose to spring the question that's been gnawing at her for years, Why did you kick me out? So I decide that a code word is in order. A word I can use to signal to Rose that the time is right. I have plenty of experience with code words. Dinner party going too late and I want people out of my home? Medicine balls I'll say to the missus and she'll produce a CD of my old spoken word band. Mattress shopping and need to communicate my bottom line while avoiding the prying ears of predatory mattress salesmen? Medicine balls, I'll say. So every situation requires its own special code word. And the hours I'd spent crafting this one had been well worth it. Okay, what's the code word gonna be? So okay, so I was thinking maybe, Medicine balls? No, that's so awkward to insert into the conversation. Yeah. I scramble together my list of Plan B code words. Toilet bowl, toilet plunger, turkey toilet, eau de toilet. It's very Canadian. How about if I were to say it without a do or a don't? Is that something people say… For the better part of an hour, Rose and I bat around ideas. Yes, we have no tomatoes. Boy, are my dogs barking. Some people call me Maurice. Finally, Rose is satisfied. How 'bout I say, And so it goes? That's what I'll say. So it goes. And so it goes. Okay, and so it goes. And so it goes. Okay, I'm writing that down, so that's gonna be our code word, okay? Okay. So when I say, And so it goes, you're gonna say, You know, Tricia, like, what just… what happened? We had a plan, we had a code word. It was time. <music>. For another word from our sponsors. <music>. This episode of Heavyweight is brought to you by NatureMade. NatureMade makes daily energy gummies and vitamin B12 supplements which provide long-term support for daily energy metabolism. Jonathan. Yes, Jorge Just, editor at Gimlet Media. I have a confession to make. mm-hmm <affirmative>. You know that health buddies program we've been doing? Yeah, the one that CEO and Gimlet founder Alex Blumberg makes us do to keep tabs on each other's healthy choices. Yeah, we're supposed to write down what we eat, when we eat it, when we nap, when we go to the loo. Yeah, I've been really enjoying our post-run smoothies. Mm, about those… They're filled with kale and vitamin B12 supplements and brewer's yeast. They taste kinda disgusting but I'm glad we're doing it together. Yeah, it's just… mine might not be quite so healthy. Uh, I don't follow. Well, I stopped using kale and I started using fried lasagna and a little bit of rum. Jorge, you've betrayed me. Consider yourself a former health buddy. No! NatureMade created daily energy gummies and vitamin B12 supplements to help your body produce energy to help you get the most out of your day. And they don't taste terrible. You can find NatureMade vitamins and supplements in most major retailers or online. To learn more, go to naturemade.com. That's naturemade.com. Hello? Hey Tricia. Hey. So I have… I have Rose on the… on the line, I think you guys can hear each other. Rose? Hi. Hi. <laugh>. It's been years since they've spoken so Rose and Tricia catch up, but mostly they reminisce. About homecoming, the big talent show, how they were both awarded best new sorority member. And they were like, We've never done this before, but here you go. Oh my God, I totally forgot about that, we did tie for best new member. Yeah. The conversation eventually turns to Rose's cancer going into remission, and that's when their memories diverge. According to Tricia, after Rose was diagnosed as cancer free, she became a different person and started to veer onto what Tricia calls, a bad path. I think you got angry, and not at certain people but just at like the situation, at life, you know? Um, I… I don't necessarily remember an anger reaction. It's not like you were pushing people down or punching them in the face. To me I think that what I perceived was like partying… partying with fraternities, like drinking a lot, like yolo lifestyle but also with like two big middle fingers up, it's just like, Yo, no one's gonna tell me what to do or how to live my life. Uh, I… I just have a perception of myself that's like, Woo, I beat cancer, like all bets are off man, now I get to do what I want. Like I did my time, like now I'm like… like if I wanna be drunk on a Tuesday, I deserve to be drunk on a Tuesday because, Hey, I just beat cancer. Like- Like I think you were just… you were separating… The conversation was taking a turn from happy reminiscence to battling perceptions of the past. Before things could escalate any further, something needed to be said. I think that… I think that, um… And so… and so it goes. I think that just, um… Rose got the memo and was back on point. I think for me, Trish, and I don't know if you can understand this part of it, getting kicked out, like I had no idea it was coming. Yeah. I'm sorry and I sincerely wish that I could give you like a list of like, This is what it was, this is what it was, this is what it was. I honestly like can't… I can't became a common refrain. Rose would ask why she'd been kicked out and Tricia would say she wants to tell Rose, but she just can't. Can't talk about it, can't get into it. Like I wish I could give you specific instances of like, At this party, you said this. Like, does that make sense? Like I don't know… It wasn't making sense to me. And I worried that it wasn't making sense to Rose either so I tried to clarify. Literally, like I'm not sure whether it's a matter of like you do know but you feel an obligation to kind of hold the secrets of the sorority all these years later, do you know what I mean, or… Yeah. No, I, I… I… and maybe like, I would say no. Like was there like some kind of oath or something like that? Or was it because you don't remember? Well, any CR meeting was like, You're under oath, everything that happens in here stays in here, and so there was, there was a confidentiality… a big confidentiality piece to those meetings. I get the feeling that Tricia and the rest of her sisters still feel some obligation to protect the secrets and reputation of an organization they joined in their 20's. This is I think the hardest thing is to think of the health of the Chapter as a whole and how maintaining the health of the whole thing sometimes hurts like one or two people. By the end of the call, Rose had become uncharacteristically quiet. So after we all say our goodbyes, I check back in with her about how she felt the call went. I think it sounds like she has some memories but she's not sure where she picked them up or who she'd be betraying if she talked about them. She's always gonna believe, and everyone else in that room, is always gonna believe that there was something about my behavior that was unbecoming to the image of the sorority. And, I mean, she almost called me a cancer. She almost said like for the health of the organization, I had to be removed. <music>. I don't think Tricia's a bad person, I really enjoyed reconnecting with her, I think she's a cool girl but ultimately what I got from her is she doesn't think kicking me out was a mistake. For the next few weeks, I try to find someone, anyone, who might know why Rose was kicked out. I phone people in the alumni office, in student relations, people who weren't even in Rose's sorority just on the long shot they might've heard something. And then one day, I get a call back from Rick. Rick was Rose's college boyfriend. They dated all through her illness and when we eventually spoke, there was something he told me that seemed too strange to be a coincidence. <unk:ringing>. Hey. Hi, how are you? Ah, shit. Uh… I have to drive through the bank drive-thru right now real quick. Um… Always a lot going on. After Rose is done with her personal banking, I tell her the news. I… I, uh… I phoned up, uh, Rick? Okay. And one of the things though that he shared with me, and I wonder, and I feel like you must know this, uh, though we've not ever talked about it, is the fact that he was also kicked out of his fraternity. Holy shit. <music>. Wait, what? Yeah, like at the time he was also kicked out of his fraternity. Of KA? KA kicked out Rick <inaudible>. Yeah. Rick was kicked out of his fraternity around the same time Rose was kicked out of Alpha Chi. Just like Rose, Rick had been the only person kicked out in years. And he never got an answer as to why. But unlike Rose, Rick has a theory about it. One that explains why both of them got kicked out. I suggest to Rose that maybe it'd be a good idea for her and Rick to talk. Yeah, we should make that happen. <unk:ringing>. Hey Jonathan, how are ya? Good. I've got Rose here on the other line. Can you guys hear each other? Hi. I can hear Rick. Hey, how are ya? Rick's now a contractor. When I reach him, he's sitting in his idling truck at a construction site. Not long after their break up, Rose graduated and moved out of Florida. The two haven't spoken in years, and this is the first time they've talked about getting kicked out. Right away, they start trading stories. Mine was just a phone call and it was a phone call from one of our brothers that was a founding father, Chas, and just basically said, Hey, you're uh… you're done here. That is so insane. You were like the responsible one. That's so insane, oh my God, I don't know. Before they get to Rick's theory, they talk about old times, eventually winding their way back to the days when they were a couple. When Rose was diagnosed with cancer, Rick actually moved her into his apartment. He drove her to doctor's appointments, cooker her meals. After the pink ribbons had been sold and the fundraising had ended, Rick was the one waiting at home to look after her at her most sick and vulnerable. Do you remember being… were you scared at any point, Rick? Terrified. Like did you fear that Rose was gonna die? Of course. I mean you, you hear the word cancer and that, that's obviously one of the things you're gonna think about. You know we had been dating for a little bit but it wasn't a great length of time before this even happened- mm-hmm <affirmative>. So, you know, you take those feelings that you have for somebody, and I mean you're still developing a relationship. And then all of a sudden you go through, Hey, you have cancer. So yeah, I mean the entire process is terrifying. It's… it's terrifying, and I was like bald and my skin was turning gray and like there he was, like going to functions with me and being my boyfriend. And I remember one time, I'm in the middle of chemo, I am bald, I am like not doing well and we go down to Daytona to watch the NASCAR event because it's right around my birthday, it's the beginning of July, and then this freak thunderstorm comes out of nowhere and the temperature dropped like a crazy amount. It downpours, we get completely soaked and now there's like, Chemo Rose is freezing, I have no immune system, I'm just teeth chattering. And so Rick took me over to the vendor area and bought me this like head to toe windbreaker outfit of Dale Earnhardt jr oh my God <laugh>. Do you remember that? I, I… I do. You looked like you pretty much belonged with that fan base. I looked like a 12 year old boy who was sitting in the bleachers with like his older brother's cool friend. <music>. In spite of all they'd been through, pretty quickly after her cancer went into remission, Rose broke up with Rick. And although Rick was sad, he understood it. Rose needed to have some time to be able to go and experience life. And so, when that took place, her and I split, a lot of people were like, Oh, well you split because she's in remission and needs to go and kind of live her life, well that's kind of the shit way of doing it because I mean hell, didn't you take care of her? Well, yeah, but I mean she's gotta figure herself out. We both got it. But, we got it and nobody else really understood. <music>. Which brings us to Rick's theory. Rick says that after he and Rose broke up, people took sides. Rick friends were mad at Rose, and Rose's friends were mad at Rick, and each side started rumors about the other. And in that fog of rumors, both of their good names were ruined. It was like the break up version of the Gift of the Magi. And as they talk, something in Rick's theory seems to click for Rose. Absolutely. That theory has never crossed my mind. Like I'm sure someone who felt close to Rick and thought that maybe I had done him wrong or something could've gotten blown out of proportion by people who felt like defensive or protective on either side of that equation. Absolutely. I mean, I remember, you know, people coming up to me that were, I mean not even friends of mine, going, Oh hey, I heard you and Rose split up and I heard she was cheatin' on you for two years, or was cheatin' on you for you know, the two months before y'all split with another guy from Pi Kap. You remember Tripp? Oh, uh, yeah. He was the one comes by my apartment one time, he was like, Oh man, I walked into her apartment and she was uh, having sex with, with some dude on the stairs. On the stairs? On the stairs. These rumors confirmed what a lot of Rose's sorority sisters were beginning to think about her after her cancer went into remission. That she was too wild, too much of a partier. But how do you kick out a poor innocent cancer survivor from your sorority? It's a lot easier if she's not so poor and innocent, if she betrayed the loving boyfriend who saw her through her illness. These rumors must've been just what the sorority had been waiting for. It gave them the moral high ground to get rid of her. So while Rose's sorority sisters thought her cancer recovery had changed her, Rick saw the experience as having changed her back to the person she'd been before joining Alpha Chi. When she started getting into Alpha Chi, I'm like, Huh? Uh, what? Like, uh, Really? You're gonna go that route? 'Cause that's not her. <music>. Rose, are you a Beatles fan? Yes. Rose had never heard the story of Pete Best so I explained how he was kicked out of the Beatles. I tell her all the different theories I'd heard for why he was kicked out. The hair, the style, but how lately looking at old photos of the band with Pete Best hunched in the background, it all seems a lot simpler. When you look at the old photographs of those guys, of the Beatles with Pete Best all together, like he just doesn't look like a Beatle, you know? And in the final analysis, it's sort of like, Why was he kicked out of the Beatles? just because he just kind of didn't seem like a Beatle. I, I… I get the analogy you're driving at here and I think you're right. Like ultimately, I just wasn't an Alpha Chi. I just wasn't like them. And I, I can't necessarily put into words or a definition what made them similar and made me different but I just know that I was different. Rose, have you ever considered like had you not gotten cancer that maybe they would've forced you out earlier? God, probably. <music>. I think I was doing a really good job of trying to assimilate early on and I was like on my best behavior but I think that like the real me just kept like cracking out, and then once, once… after going through the whole cancer thing, then it's like, Uh, let's not put on airs anymore. Like I am who I am. And I was trying really hard to like cram myself into that mold and it just wasn't fitting. <laugh>. Like it just wasn't working. You know, I think like, in having spoken to quite a few of your old sorority sisters, I mean none of them sound like you. No. And I mean that in a… I mean that in a nice way. No, I'm totally down with that. Like I'm a fuckin' maniac and that's who I am and I've come to fully embrace that right now. Like, I'm really cool with who I am. Well, you know, I'm, I'm… I'm cool with who you are also. Thank you. <laugh>. <music>. Years after getting kicked out of the Beatles, Pete Best said he was still hopeful that maybe one day, he'd find out why. Maybe I'll run into Paul, he said, and we can talk about it. If decades from now, Rose should run into one of her sorority sisters, I hope she won't need to talk about anything other than the weather or what she's making for supper. And then she can say her goodbyes and get back to chopping, banking, and basically being the maniac that she is. <music>. Heavyweight is hosted and produced by me, Jonathan Goldstein, along with Kalila Holt. The senior producer is Kaitlin Roberts. Editing by Jorge Just, Alex Blumberg, and Wendy Dorr. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Stevie Lane, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Kate Bilinski. Music by Christine Fellows and John K. Samson. Additional music credits for this episode can be found on our website, gimletmedia.com/heavyweight. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw. Follow us on Twitter @heavyweight or email us at heavyweight@gimletmedia.com. We'll have a new episode next week. Thanks to our sponsor, jet.com. At Jet, you can shop curated brands and city essentials all in one place. And the best part? Free shipping on orders over $35 and no membership fee required. Try it now. Just download the app or go to jet.com. Thanks to our sponsor, NatureMade. NatureMade is committed to making high quality vitamins and supplements that you can choose with confidence. Look for them in most major retailers or online at naturemade.com. That's naturemade.com. Thanks to our sponsor, the new Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch whisky. When you want a whisky that's both smokey and sweet, you shouldn't have to choose. Fire and cane is a smokey as Gimlet media editor Jorge Just, and as sweet as me. Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch. Enjoy responsibly. From Gimlet Media's, The Nod. Historical reckoning. Kunta. Kunta kinte. Intergalactic space travel. Scan for any air disruption or vortex. And the voice of Chaka Khan. Reading Rainbow… Only one person brings them all together. But, you don't have to take my word for it. Special guest LeVar Burton joins The Nod to drop some truth. Listen to The Nod wherever you get your podcasts.
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You are about to witness the very exciting story of a city and its people. It is a story of a city seeking new horizons in a resolute contest with great challenges. That city is Detroit. 1,2,3, now! We're bankrupt. The children's schools suck. There's no work here and all the dudes that are responsible for this probably had steak and Bordeaux for lunch. Welcome to Crime Count, produced with Gimlet media. This season, we're heading to Detroit. This city teach you one thang for sure. You always need a hustle. If you don't, it's going to blow up in your fucking face. <inaudible> said, that's why they think I'm a fan. <inaudible>. They don't care who they step on as long as they get along while I <inaudible> in my eyes. Just like last season, you'll hear from criminals. Boom! Shot me right through the head, it came out right here. It just missed my brain. Cops. Nobody was summarily executed because that's something you couldn't justify. Unsung heroes. I don't half step nothing. When I tell you I'm going to get you, take it to the bank. And a mayor who promised to turn the city around, Quami Kilpatrick. It's time for all of us to rise up and begin our future right here, right now. So how did that lead us to jail? Well… $500 spa visits. Rock star style entourages. A stripper, who later wound up dead. Quami Kilpatrick. Quami Kilpatrick. Quami. Quami. Quami. I saw people walking around with shirts that said put Quami in jail. You would not have seen a black person with that shirt on. In a city divided by race, things aren't always black and white. All the crackers and all the racists used him to justify their own prejudices. So he used the race card as a shield. This unethical, illegal, lynch mob mentality has to stop. And we'll be hearing straight from the source. This call is from- Quami Kilpatrick. An inmate at a Federal prison. To accept, dial 5 now. Hey Quami. Hey John. How you doing? I'm okay man. I'm so glad you called, I was getting a little worried. I figured you'd pull through. Crime town season 2, coming October 1, exclusively on Spotify. Subscribe for free at Spotify.com/crimetown or on the Spotify app.
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This episode is brought to you by Spotify, the home of Crimetown season two: Detroit. Just like this season of Crimetown, season two is full of colorful and interesting characters, and it's still hard to tell the good guys from the bad guys. Stick around during the mid-roll break to learn how we made this season, and why Detroit is a city built on hustle. This episode is brought to you by Pick Me Up, a new podcast from Lyft and Gimlet Creative. Each episode profiles a Lyft driver on their way to something big, like writing a children's book. The Alien and the Unicorn is a story of a young girl unicorn who is trying to find out who she really is. Or trying to buy a restaurant. We've been sucked into the family. And someone needs to keep the family together. He chose us. Lyft drivers who are ready to take the next step toward achieving big dreams and goals. What if Mommy and Daddy told you there's a great possibility that you could swim with the dolphins tomorrow? Ahh! Pick Me Up is hosted by Mariah Smith, and will be out on September 25th. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is brought to you by Nature Made. Nature Made makes daily energy gummies and vitamin B12 supplements which provide long-term support for daily energy metabolism. Nature Made knows your body is your greatest asset for feeling more energetic. In fact, your body generates enough power to run a 90 -watt light bulb all day. Flip that switch and learn more about Nature Made by going to naturemade.com. That's naturemade.com. <unk:singing> Our top story today, December 6th, 2002: Buddy checks in to jail. I'm here at the front gate of the federal prison where former mayor of Providence, Rhode Island Vincent A. Cianci jr better known as- Buddy! expected to surrender himself by noon today to serve his five year, four month term. Prisoner Buddy- The show opened with Buddy standing in front of the prison, his back to the audience, just a light on him, and then the newscaster started to interview the various citizens of Providence- Yeah. The denizens of the area. His constituents. On the streets of the city, reactions to the former mayor's incarceration were, to say the least, mixed. <unk:singing> There's three different people who represent three different points of view on Buddy. One is that he was totally set up. One is that he's a total thug, he's the worst thing that ever happened to Providence. And one that, yeah, he's a thug, but he doesn't care because of the great things he's done for the city. <unk:singing> I'm Mike Tarantino. I wrote the music, and some of the words, to Buddy Cianci the Musical. And I'm Jonathan Van Gieson. I wrote the book, and the rest of the words, to Buddy Cianci the Musical. <unk:singing> Today on Crimetown, we're gonna have a little fun with a holiday special. In 2003, two Brown University alumni created a musical about Buddy Cianci. It was performed six times at the New York Fringe Festival. The Fringe Festival, the New York Fringe Festival, at that point, had just sent Urinetown to Broadway, so there was this- That's right. this whole bunch of possibility, like, you could write a musical about pee, and then you'd be on Broadway. <laugh> And we thought, You know what's better than pee? Is Buddy Cianci. <laugh> <laugh> Unfortunately, no recordings were made of those performances, so we called some of our friends who work in musical theater, and asked them to help us resurrect this forgotten musical classic. I'm Mark Smerling. And I'm Zach Stuart-Pontier. Welcome to Buddy Cianci the Musical. Welcome to Buddy Cianci the Musical. <unk:singing> So um, you know, tell us why Providence, Rhode Island. Well, we both went to school- mm-hmm <affirmative>. at Brown, because… who knows why anyone goes to college? I mean, it seemed like a good idea at the time. Mike and I met there and became friends, and uh, Providence was a- a ghost town back then. There was… I- I- I kid you not, I was walking through the downtown area on a weekend, and I saw a tumbleweed roll by. <laugh> <laugh> I mean, where the canals are now was a trickle of sump water. Like, it apparently stunk. There was, it just ran through, and there was a stench where you walked over it. That stinky sliver of water had been trickling through downtown Providence since way before Jon and Mike went to college. Even before Buddy ran for mayor. After the musical's opening number, the lights go down, and we go back in time, to a city in need of a savior. And the song was… The sweaty armpit, the sleaze and smarm pit, won't do you harm pit, eggplant and parm pit. <laugh> Back to the armpit of New England! <unk:singing> It was a great way of setting up the town as the song. And then when we looked at the map, visually it looks like it's gonna stick right there in the armpit of… It's where you would put the deodorant. <unk:singing> Do you remember first hearing about Buddy Cianci? You know, I don't. It… I guess by the time I got to college, I already knew about him, but I don't remember the first time I heard about… I remember the first time I met him. Tell me. This was, I think, my senior year. And a friend of mine was having this party. And so he invited Buddy Cianci. Who showed up! This is just a college party? Just a college party! You know, it was this gag. You're in college. You invite the mayor to your party, of course you do. <laugh> <laugh> We were there at this house party, and there- there walks in with his entourage Buddy Cianci, you know, goes around the room, Hey, how you doing, how you doing? Hey, how you doing over there? Hey, nice shirt, I like that shirt. Oh, who's that on your shirt? Good to see you. Hey, how you doing? All right, bye. I think that's what got him elected so many times, was his willingness to go to pretty much anything he was invited to. Did you guys ever shake his hand? I did, twice. Yeah. Yeah, one might call that the formative moment. Right, exactly. That was the moment where this- Stuck in my head. It was, that was the- the um, musical moment. Yeah. Yeah. I did not get to shake his hand. This song, May I Shake Your Hand, takes Buddy into politics. Remember, the first time he ran for mayor, he was an unknown, up against a well-oiled Democratic machine. <unk:singing> This is before he was the guy that everybody knew, and so he would go up to people and say, May I shake your hand? And sometimes they would, and sometimes they wouldn't. <laugh> <laugh> <unk:singing> Oh, that's right! He ran his first campaign, he was the anti-corruption candidate. Yeah. That was the- That's why I was talking about irony. Yeah. Yeah. That's, we didn't know about that back when we wrote this. <laugh> <laugh> We didn't know about irony for some reason. We've looked it up since. <unk:singing> There was the slick, smooth politician, you know, on the streets, and then there was the sort of, like, more arrogant, powerful, sort of in the back room deals, and then there was the absolute, you know, psychotic lunatic… <laugh> <laugh>… that comes out later. <laugh> <unk:singing> You know, I'm sure once he got to office he found that all the, all the stuff that he w- thought he was gonna get done… Yeah. um, wasn't gonna get done, necessarily. It was gonna do him. And uh, I think it was pretty quick after he got elected that he- he gave up on those particular values that he espoused in his campaign. We- we had a whole song about that- Yeah. and the Department of Public Works, uh, which was setting up all the… all the things that- The shenanigans. The shenanigans- Yeah. with Buckles and Blackjack. It's the actual guys' name, Buckles and Blackjack. I mean… <laugh> <laugh> They, if you put that on the application you gotta pause for a second. Y- you look at it, you say, uh, Should I hire these guys? And then you say, Yeah, I'm hiring these guys. <laugh> <laugh> You know. I remember you sent me this one, and then I was about to send it back, and I said, Yeah, it's a waltz. And you were like, No! <laugh> It's supposed to be funny! And, you know. It's a… It's a funny waltz. It's a funny waltz. Yeah. A funny waltz. As waltzes go. <unk:singing> So there they are, they're giving jobs to people who don't show up. The Department of Public Works, I think, was like the- the prime job to get, because you had access to all these materials. You'd buy them for cheap, steal them, and then charge the city twice as much for half the merchandise. Yeah. <unk:singing> We hear concrete's getting stole. I- I never heard nothing about that, mr Mayor! Just ridiculousness. <unk:singing> The fact that it worked, for so many years, the I don't know! Where- where did that seven billion tons of concrete go? I dunno. <unk:singing> He was, started to establish himself as mayor, and uh, um, we started to get into his marital troubles, which happened in the second and third terms, where you know, the rumors had it he was, he was not, um, he was not a gentleman who enjoyed a particular affinity for fidelity to his spouse. His wife's name was Sheila, but… When we were in school the legend was that he married a woman named Nancy Ann. Yeah. And so her name was Nancy Ann Cianci. That was what everyone said her name was, and… it was fun to say. <laugh> Um. In fact, there was… we- we did have a song earlier where he's wooing his wife, uh, and singing to her, Will you be my Nancy Ann Cianci? I love that. <laugh> Don't you know I'm not a fancy man? But if you want to take a chance, you can. Be my one and only, Nancy Ann, my Nancy Ann Cianci. <laugh> Yeah, that was a fun dumb song. So he woos her, and then, you know, of course becomes embroiled in the power, and having fun, and um, some reports say he was doing some drugs at that point. Um, and so he gets all hyped up, he decides that his wife is having an affair with his best friend. I don't know how well he knew the guy, actually, but… And so, uh, kidnaps the guy and takes him to his house, and there's that famous, he throws an ashtray at him, he throws a cigar at him, and uh, demands $100,000, something like that. This was one of Buddy's lowest moments. A night that he kidnapped and tortured a man in his own home, a castle-like structure on Power Street. We never wrote a song about that scene. We wanted to, but we never got that one done. I thought that was a conscious choice. Was it? To keep it, like, that was pretty- To keep it heavy? pretty dark, yeah. <laugh> Yeah. Because that's not… I feel like we'd make a different choice 15 years later, maybe. <laugh> <laugh> 'Cause I- I mean, that could be a great… He kept saying, D-E-D dead, you're dead, D-E-D dead. Oh, really? And that's the- yeah! Oh, we gotta write that song. All right, let's do it. I've got the, I've got the chorus. It goes, D-E-D dead- <laugh> <laugh> D-E-D dead. I threw an ashtray at your head, you're D-E-D dead. No, that's not good. That's not… Oh, my God. Um, and so that brought us to the end, in- in- in the show, that brought us, that particular scene and his, the subsequent, uh… Did he resign? He resigned from office. Resigned, took his knocks- Right. pled nolo contendere. Nolo contendere. But we also <crosstalk> That's a song. We considered a song called Nolo Contendere. That's a song. <laugh> I don't think we ever wrapped our minds around it, but… I can assure you, I did not. <laugh> <laugh> <laugh> <unk:singing> So we wrote a song for Nancy Ann Cianci, where she's talking about different streets and how… It's a metaphor for their lives. <unk:singing> Some people love Power, but most people just live off Hope, which is all streets in Providence. That's her swan song, leaving him, walking out the door. <unk:singing> So Act One ends, he's out of power, after his first three terms. <unk:singing> We'll be back for Act Two after intermission. This episode is brought to you by Spotify, the home of Crimetown season two. For season two, we've moved from Providence to Detroit. I brought senior producer Drew Nelles into the studio to talk about it. Hey, Zach. Thanks for coming by. I love to be in the studio with you. It's so fun. It's always fun. We don't, we don't spend enough time together. <laugh> One of my favorite things about this season, that we've carried over from last season, is that you're gonna hear from a lot of really colorful characters. So who were some of your favorites, uh, characters that you met? Um, I mean, in episode one, just talking to Mary Jarrett Jackson. That was one of the best interviews I've ever done. She was one of the first black women to be hired on the Detroit police department. Then we follow her on one of her most famous cases. Yes, yeah. Which is- No spoilers. Yeah, which has a lot of twists and turns. <laugh> Yeah. It's almost stranger than fiction, I would say. It is. To meet these characters and learn why Detroit is a city built on hustle, listen to season two of Crimetown for free on Spotify. Go to spotify.com/crimetown, or search Crimetown in the Spotify app. This episode is brought to you by Merrill Lynch. At Merrill, it all starts with you. The you who's expecting a new addition, the you who's building a new addition. As your needs evolve, Merrill provides advice and guidance that evolves with you. They help you build a personalized financial strategy that starts with what matters most to you, with the right balance of straightforward tools and access to professionals when you need them. Whether you prefer working with a dedicated advisor, self-directed investing, or a Merrill Lynch professionally managed portfolio, Merrill provides advice and guidance to help you live the life you want. Learn more at ml.com/you. Investing in securities involves risks. Investments are not FDIC insured, are not bank-guaranteed, and may lose value. Merrill Lynch and Merrill make available products and services offered by Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner and Smith Incorporated, a registered broker-dealer, registered investment advisor, member SIPC, and a wholly owned subsidiary of Bank of America Corporation. This episode is brought to you by Merrill Lynch. At Merrill, it all starts with you. The you who's expecting a new addition, the you who's building a new addition. As your needs evolve, Merrill provides advice and guidance that evolves with you. They help you build a personalized financial strategy that starts with what matters most to you, with the right balance of straightforward tools and access to professionals when you need them. Whether you prefer working with a dedicated advisor, self-directed investing, or a Merrill Lynch professionally managed portfolio, Merrill provides advice and guidance to help you live the life you want. Learn more at ml.com/you. Investing in securities involves risks. Investments are not FDIC insured, are not bank-guaranteed, and may lose value. Merrill Lynch and Merrill make available products and services offered by Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner and Smith Incorporated, a registered broker-dealer, registered investment advisor, member SIPC, and a wholly owned subsidiary of Bank of America Corporation. <unk:singing> Welcome back. We're halfway through Buddy Cianci the Musical, with its creators Jonathan Van Gieson and Mike Tarantino. We'll pick things up at the beginning of Act Two. It's 1990, and Buddy Cianci has made a surprise mayoral comeback. He's back in office, and he's starting to make improvements on the city. <unk:singing> He starts work on Waterplace Park, which, you know, was that rancid river we were talking about earlier, but now he's made it into a river with gondolas on it and water fires. All these improvements are making Providence into the- the vision, I think, that he has for it. <unk:singing> And that's when Aiken shows up. He's the antagonist to Buddy's protagonist, I think, is the… you know. He's… mm-hmm <affirmative>. Well said. Dennis Aiken, the FBI agent on a crusade to take Buddy down. We put him in a trenchcoat, and- and hat that shadowed his face. <unk:singing> It's his big announcement of the name of the operation, which I- I mean, is one of the best names ever. Another thing you just couldn't make up. I know, right? Plunderdome. Plunderdome! <unk:singing> Aiken's looking for someone to be his inside man in this organization. And so he finds Freitas. Tony Freitas, the undercover operative who wore a wire. Now, these guys are gonna think you're stupid, you're gonna let them. Nobody's going to think I'm stupid! Look, Tony. These are the kind of guys that they already think you're stupid because of your accent, so- so just let them think it. Yeah, yeah, but- They think you're stupid, they'll tell you more. They'll explain things to you. That's how we'll get to them. Okay. Let's get these cockroaches. Uh, you'll need a codename. Your company does air conditioning? We'll call you mr Freon. <unk:singing> Good morning, Joseph! Good morning, how are you? Okay, Buddy. Okay, Buddy? Who is this? Tony. <laugh> <crosstalk> We had Freitas walk into this meeting, with a briefcase on his shoulder that had a camera lens sticking out of it. So the visual was he's coming in, you know, and they're not noticing, of course, because they didn't- Yeah. <laugh>… how they can not catch on that this guy was going, like, So, been doing any illegal activity lately? <laugh> Do you have any illegal activity you'd like to mention? T- Testing, testing. Do you have any illegal… And I think it was, it was one of the funniest moments in the show, was his sneaking around with this briefcase with a camera sticking out, this camera lens sticking out of the edge of it. <unk:singing> As opening night approached in New York City, Mike and Jonathan put the finishing touches on the script and score. They painted the sets. They pieced together costumes, and they scoured the city for the one thing they just had to get right. We must've gone to a dozen different wig shops to find the perfect one. And this one we found <laugh> I think in a remaindered box, like, in a remaindered wig box. And it was just a piece of molded plastic, with amazingly, Buddy's hair on top of it. That- that sort of… <laugh>… um, it- it had… tortoise, tortoise-shaped, how would you describe that… Yeah. sweep? I mean, it had a wave- Yeah. in it. Or like a… Or no, no, it didn't. Sorry. <crosstalk> Clamshell! A h- helmet. It looks like, it's a clamshell. Hmm, like a helmet. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. Like a hair helmet. Yeah. <laugh> And it just looked, you know, it looked just real enough and just ridiculous enough to- to really sell the bad toupee. We had a big final moment, where he's standing in front of the jail in Fort Dix, and there's a spotlight on him, and he sings his big final song. <unk:singing> You really did get the feeling, even though you don't want to believe it, right? But you did get the feeling that he loved Providence and he wanted it to be great. Yeah. He wanted it to be one of the great cities of the world. There's something lovable about that pride of place, you know, that love of the city. <unk:singing> And then, uh, he takes off his toupee, he leaves it on the ground and walks off into the darkness, and the toupee is sitting there in the spotlight to close out the show. <unk:singing> And how successful was it? In what way? <laugh> During the 2003 Fringe Festival, Buddy Cianci the Musical did six sold-out shows at the LATEA Theater. Afterwards, the cast did a reading of the musical for the Providence Performing Arts Center, or PPAC, to see if they might want to put on a production in Providence. But in the end, PPAC passed on the show, and it was never performed again. Artistically, you know, it w- it was an interesting experiment for is. I wouldn't… you know, there's… In terms of the reviews, they were mixed. We had a couple really good ones, a couple really bad ones, and a couple that were like, Meh, uh, it could, it could be, with work. I think the- the best review I got was from Buddy himself, which was, uh… He never saw the show, because he was, you know, in prison at the time. And uh, I went to see the documentary that, uh, Cherry Arnold? Is that her name? Did about him, and he was there. He- he'd gotten out of prison recently. You know, I had to go up and say hi, of course. And I said, Hi, I'm Jonathan Van Gieson, I've written a musical about you. He's like, Oh, yeah, yeah, I heard about that. Yeah, yeah. I talked to Lynn over at, uh, PPAC about it. He said it was unfixable. And I was like, I just got Buddy'd, didn't I? I just got… he just cut my legs out from under me right here. I'm like… So I said that to Mike <laugh> and Mike's response, I thought, was great. Yeah, it's totally fixable. <laugh> Yeah, that was… Come on. That… <laugh> I- I disagree with Lynn from PPAC. <laugh> <unk:singing> Crimetown is me, Zach Stuart-Pontier, and Marc Smerling, in partnership with Gimlet Media. As the year draws to a close, we wanted to take a chance to thank our incredible team. You all do so much great work, and we really do appreciate it. Thank you for putting up with us. And to all you Crimetown junkies out there, from the entire Crimetown team, thanks for listening this year. As a small token of our appreciation, all the songs that you heard on today's show are available to download for free on our website crimetownshow.com. Be careful, they're very catchy. Have a merry Christmas, and a happy New Year. <unk:singing> This episode was produced by Nikita Burdein, Rob Szypko, and Austin Mitchell. Our senior producer is Drew Nelles. Editing by John White, Soraya Shockley, and MR Daniel. Buddy Cianci the Musical was written by Jonathan Van Gieson and Mike Tarantino. The Crimetown recordings of their songs were produced by Nikita Burdein. They were arranged and recorded by Dan Reitz, at Dan Reitz Studios. The cast included Michael Lutton as Buddy Cianci, Ali Reed as Nancy Ann Cianci, Christian Paluck as Dennis Aiken, Nikita Burdein as Tony Freitas, Brian Hansbury and Elizabeth Slack as Department of Public Works employees, and additional characters performed by: Joe Leonardo, James Bruffee, Lane Kwederis, Kiki Mikkelsen, Matt Giroveanu, Chris Bell, and Daniel Tepper. Dan Reitz played the keyboard, trombone, guitar, bass and drums. Stefan Zeniuk played the saxophone and additional horns, and Dan Brantigan played the trumpet. This episode of Crimetown was mixed by Kenny Kusiak. Our credit track this week is Rosaleen Eastman's special holiday rendition of our theme song, Goat's Run to Your Mama. <unk:singing> Our ad music is by Matthew Boll. Thanks to Julia Heymans, Emily Wiedemann, Mike Stanton, Dan Barry, and everyone who shared their stories with us. Alex Bloomberg is the Podfather. He would go up to people and say, May I shake your hand? Sometimes they would, and sometimes they wouldn't. <unk:singing> And about next season, we have picked a city. We know you want to know what that city is. We are not going to tell you. Not yet, at least. Stay tuned. <unk:singing> Thanks to our sponsor, Spotify, the home of Crimetown season two: Detroit. To listen to season two of Crimetown for free, go to spotify.com/crimetown, or search for Crimetown in the Spotify app. At Merrill, it all starts with you. The you who's a caring parent. The you who's caring for a parent. No matter what your priorities are, Merrill provides advice and guidance to help you live the life you want. Learn more at ml.com/you. At Merrill, it all starts with you. The you who's a caring parent. The you who's caring for a parent. No matter what your priorities are, Merrill provides advice and guidance to help you live the life you want. Learn more at ml.com/you. <unk:singing>
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