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+Welcome back to another episode of podcast and Color of The Podcast. I thought I was gonna <laugh> be on time with the last episode, which was due two weeks ago. Um, but I left part of my audio in Denver when I went to New York and <laugh> then I asked the guests to send me his half and he did, but I still had issues trying to put it all together and get it out. So I just decided to come and the next scheduled day. And here I am. I've had a bad cold this past week. Um, but I'm surviving um, so I might sound a little bit sick, just letting you know I sound different to you um, from usual. It's been a while since I've been here. RIP to the buzzfeed team. Um, you turned out some great podcasts and of course that's why I know of and Love Jenna of Pineapple Street media. Another round was a life changer for me and a lot of other women and I hope all the women who came through the pod squad team land on their feet and on other great podcastings because they're great producers and the things they put together are really great if you want to support the pod squad team. Um, there are people still at buzzfeed working on the podcast they have scheduled through the end of the season. So podcasts like Thursday kid, you can't go and support and that is supporting the teams that are still working at buzzfeed. I was in New York for two weeks um, while I was in New York. I was able to attend a few different podcasts events. I was able to go to get Ingrown live in Philadelphia. Um, the He-man woman haters club that was in New York City. I was also able to attend the gifted towns network celebration um, of their one year I was able to meet Mickey of wandering blurts who has done episodes out of Denver and on Denver and spends time here. Um, it was a reminder that there are podcasts being created all around us and it started maybe in Brooklyn and going to an event there to find out about a person who does podcasts that cover Denver and some of the local things we have here that deal with black people. A new podcast network was started by Ayana, um, who runs the current podcasts switch, pivot or quit. And I'll read this from her Linkedin posts on starting Maisie media. The first production from Maisie media is a podcast titled A Milli launched on September, 25th, A Milli takes listeners behind the scenes with women who have amassed 1 million plus in business. It's eight episodes of No Fluff first person narratives highlighting women who collectively have more than $60, million in annual revenue, $5, million in social followers, and have a mass more than $160 million in funding, which is a major accomplishment considering it was reported in 2017 that only two percent of venture capital dollars went to female founders. I link her Linkedin post um, talking about Maisie media and what the network would do, um, in the episode notes so that you can click and check out her podcast which pivot or quit and the first podcast on Maisie media, A Milli. Congratulations to dr Joy who just celebrated 2 million downloads in under two years, her first year completing full Therapy For Black Girls was in April of this year. So that is a feat that I haven't seen done by many, especially in the independent space. So congrats to dr joy and the Therapy For Black Girls podcasts. And, if you haven't checked it out, obviously, obviously you can see that other people are taking to it and it is spreading fast. So a great podcast to checkout or share with others that you think it could help. There are only a few <laugh> white women in podcasting that like, I truly, really fuck with. Women, that if they pulled that thing, that, that chick pulled on twitter the other night uh, you know, where the N words of whatever I would be really sad. And Carrie of PRX is one of those people only Carrie of PRX <laugh> giving a talk about Google podcast in a nice way. Lately, you know, since they announced their new foray into podcasting this summer, um, I'm talking about how much they aren't doing or what I don't think is gonna be great about what they're doing because it didn't feel like they were really trying. Well, it was announced this week that Google podcasts is teaming up with PRX. This is from the tech crunch article on PRX teaming up with Google. PRX is teaming up with Google, the idea is to focus on empowering and training underrepresented people offering free educational tools and showcasing their work as a part of the program which kicks off in January, 12 teams will receive seed funding, training and mentorship. Those who are interested can apply until November, 18th. And of course I'll link that to, I'll link that in the show notes. So it saying they're going to have 12 teams. All teams are gonna receive seed funding, training and mentorship. So uh, it looks like they're almost doing, it feels like they're almost doing what Spotify was kind of doing before, but not, not necessarily focusing just on women um, and they're doing it in a bigger way. Um, I don't have more information on this, maybe I'll inquire to see if somebody like to do an interview to talk about this a little bit more, but it sounds interesting and I do hope you all apply. So of course, as I said, I'll link that in the show notes. Um, so that you can apply and look to see more information on it. Um, I literally only read up on this um, as I was writing the intro to this episode only to find out my other babbage, which is Jennifer Pineapple Street, um, the part am always mentioning is doing this. And um, if you look on the PRX application um, on the bottom, it says if you go to their website for this, um, outside of the tech crunch article, and if you just wanna go to that site right now, it would be google.cP.prx.org, Google C as in cat, P as in Paul, Dot p, r x.org. And if you scroll to the bottom, it says advisory committee um, is Genna Wise Berman, the co-chair and Ahmed Dashi is a co-chair, um, who I haven't heard of. Um, it's Genna Wise Berman of the co-founder of Pineapple Street media. If you scroll all the way down, you'll see on the bottom the advisory committee, so it looks like the people that will be choosing everyone after they submit is Genna Wise Berman. She's a co-chair um, of course she's the Co-founder of Pineapple Street media. And then the other person is a Ahmed Dashi who was the other co-chair, and he is a serial entrepreneur who had started companies and the technology and consumer Internet space. He's now branded out to start IVM podcast that focuses on making podcasts lots of podcasts. He wants IVM podcast to be the premier destination for spoken word content in <inaudible>. So in working with Carrie at PRX and Jenna at Pineapple Street, I mean those are the two people I would pick if I was to do something. So anyhow, moving on, I'll be in Boston the first weekend in November for the sound education conference, talking about building online communities and I'm thinking about doing a meetup. Anybody in Boston let me know. I mean even if there's only one person I am down to meet up, go to breakfast or maybe go get a drink or something. It's hard for me to take in content about police killings, movies, books, any of it. Um, but if you heard about the Van Dyke trial out of Chicago, there is a podcast covering it called 16 shots and I will link that in the episode notes. They've been covering the entire trial and most likely will cover the verdict that happened last week. The hashtag pods in color has been used over sixty thousand times on Instagram and I wanna thank you all for uh, using the hashtag on Instagram and your post in your stories really using it allover social media Twitter it's been used so many times, Facebook it's used a lot, I appreciate it, I appreciate you spreading the word um, Instagram is a huge place for podcast and the hashtag kept this people fine other podcast and uh, then they find, you know, the community of podcast and fellows so I appreciate you using pods and color. Please keep using it, it really does help. Today's interview is with FavyFav of Latinos Who Lunch. I have really fun talking to him. I hope you enjoy this interview and he'll be in Colorado later this month. So if I organize a meetup or anything while he's in town, of course I'll put that on the next podcast and across my social media. So to start with, thank you for joining me today. And what do you like to go by? I noticed, this is one thing that I notice with people is that like if you don't have to say your name or anything a lot, like you don't assign like people assume or no, and I was like, I don't, I don't know what is most comfortable thing. Uh, uh, you know what? I don't even, I don't even know anymore. That's the status bar. <laugh> I don't even know who I am Barry help me. <laugh> What is your name? Um. <laugh> What does people call you? Well, my legal name is Justin Favela, but my, my internet name is FavyFav. Okay. So in FavyFav is like my high school nickname that just kind of stuck. So um, a lot of people call me Favy. That's my, that's, that's uh, you can call me Favy or Justin. Okay. Well I call you Favy in my head and I feel like I'm not sure what I called you when we were in person, but in my head that's what I call you. Like when I see you don't like it, it's probably five. <laugh> Okay.Yeah, you can call me that. That's cool. Okay <laugh> Um, so I went, I always want to be comfortable people because I know I go by Barry, of course my real name is Danielle, but people always shorten it and I'm just like, but I have a name you can shorten, it's Barry <laugh> just like I have a nickname. We're good. Um, <laugh> Okay, so Favy, what is your social media where people, where can people find you? Well, they can find me on all social media platforms at FavyFav that's f a v Y, f a V and um, I was really a big Flavor Flave fan back in the day. <laugh> So <laugh> that's where that came from. <laugh> Still coming through. Still coming through. <laugh> Yeah. <laugh> Well I have to say I do love your social media, I think, I mean, at least to me it seems like your Instagram is biggest or less where I see like the most engagement that like everyone in your pictures that pops up, it's like hundreds of likes and people are like, I love it. Give us more. <laugh> I know it's all a lie. <laugh> <laugh> The curated life of Instagram. Oh my Gosh isn't that the truth? It's something um, so. Oh, do you have your phone out? That's what I forgot to ask you before we started. Absolutely. Okay. So if you can open your phone and tell me what podcast App or Apps do you use? Well, I mostly use Stitcher. Okay. Um, and um, I'm an early adapter of Stitcher, so I don't like change. <laugh> <laugh> So um, I keep using Stitcher. Um, but now I've found that the purple APP, as you call it, the podcast APP is improved a little bit because it doesn't download the podcast right to my phone, like it used to, which was so annoying. Oh yeah, used to autodownload. I was telling people that was like the hardest thing for a while, when the custom thing, was it autodownloaded anything you subscribed to. Yeah, so I've been using the Purple app for a few podcasts that aren't on Stitcher and then I use Spotify also. Mhh, I love it somebody like everybody gets on here and they just do one podcast app. So I feel like you're one of few people that had a couple of different ones that they use regularly. Like… Oh no, because sometimes like the read doesn't post on Stitcher right away, but it's on sound cloud or the, you know what I mean? We're all like that. I feel like it might be the reason keeping us on sound cloud a little bit. <laugh> Like I swear there's so many people that are like, you know, it's just like that first 20 minutes. It's only on sound cloud. So I had to keep sound cloud around <laugh> <laugh>. Yeah, it depends on my day, like if I need it, you know, I go right to sound cloud. <laugh> If you know what's up and you have the time, you need it to be there. Right then I understand. Mhh. So okay, with Stitcher, do you do Stitcher premium at all? Or are you just on the free side of Stitcher? No, I'm on the free side. I don't, I'm not paying for that. No Way. <laugh> They already put Ads in in between podcast. Why would I pay for it? Like I don't know, I think, yeah. They're trying to do like original programming and stuff, but… Yeah, it's, it's been a while. I'm gonna, I'm gonna have a late episode coming um, which would be the episode that actually before this where I kind of input some stuff from one of their Stitcher podcast talking about their premium. But yeah, I've had it like, my thing is I've seen them developing, um, like they have a couple of black podcast coming out but there's one coming out tomorrow and then one October on the premium side and they've done some before, but it's just like a couple. So it was like if I have hundreds of podcasts out that are free, what makes me wanna go sign up for just like three or four podcasts behind a paywall. I don't know, it's Kind of hard. But… Yeah, It is what it is. I always try to see if other people do premium or if I'm just the hater this like why would I pay more? <laugh> I think we're just both haters. <inaudible> <laugh> We could be, we could be. Okay. So we know what podcasts Apps, do you use a few, couple different Apps? Um, can you give me some of the podcasts that you're subscribed to across the Apps? Oh my gosh. Okay. Um, well let me just open it up and see. You know, what I don't like about Stitcher right now they totally changed it. So I had a custom order before… Mh. And now it's doing it like by episodes… Mhh. Like by the newest episodes and or I can go by shows and that is the custom order. But anyway, let's see. So I have right now on my, on the top of my shows on Stitcher, unravel a fashion podcast. Um, let's see. dr Death is a new podcast by Wondery about this white man that's just killing people and nobody's checking them because white people get away with everything. Um, let's see. Insecurity. Yeah. Um, whimsically volatile it's a podcast with Katia, the drag… Any, pretty much any uh, podcasts with drag queens I'm listening to it. So that's the following couple unbearable with Big Dipper and Meatball, Race Chasers with Alaska Thunderfuck and Willem, podcasts and color, The podcasts. Thank you. <laugh> Mhh. Marsha played a sibling rivalry with Bob The drag Queen and Monique's change. So yeah, those are just a few… Mhh. Um, from my list. Okay. Well I like that, that's pretty obviously like outside of what I would normally listen to. There's a few on that list like Marsha's played, I've been turning into, but the rest not really. So is that more because of Rupaul's drag race or that's just your life in that's, like what attracts you to those podcasts? Yeah, I'm a huge Rupaul's drag race. <laugh> So anything. Yeah. So that's what I used to do back in the day. Like if I found a drag queen I loved, I would just, you know, put it in the search. Um, I know you can do that with like different podcast Apps. You can search for somebody's name and just see all the podcasts that pop up. Mhh. And I would just listen to every single… That's how I found a lot of these podcasts. Mhh. Um, so yeah, it's uh, definitely uh, Rupaul's drag race fan. Not so much a RuPaul fan recently <laugh> <laugh> A lot behind that <laugh> Mh, mh, but um, definitely, he's, he's definitely made an impact when it's come to a visibility for, for this drag culture. So yeah. Oh yes. So I mean we're seeing where it goes. I see that like his way is gonna be just the float through this and anything <laugh> anybody has to say about how he feels about things. So that's something <laugh> going on. Um, okay. So in all of those, even if it's ones that you didn't mention, um, in the App that you were talking about subscribe to. Do you have a podcast top five? Oh my gosh, I was dreading this part. <laugh> I think you know what, I wrote it down because I really thought about it. Let me look. Let me look. Okay. Okay. Top five and this is just like you said, um, Latinos Who Lunch when I talked to you. <laugh> <laugh> Um, this is the top five now, right now… Mh. That I'm like the most excited about and we already know we're the biggest fans of the read, so I'm not gonna include the read. Okay. Okay. So I got uh, from Dallas, Texas. I love De Colores radio. Okay. Um, De Colores collective. They're awesome. And they talk, they do like hot topics and then they'll interview somebody. Um, and then we have of course Tea with Queen and J. Oh my gosh. I am so happy that um, I went to your meetup in Harlem Yess. And I met Genisia and I started listening to the podcast right after, literally on the subway back to, to Queens. <laugh> <laugh> And I've been listening to it ever since. Owe, I'm glad. I mean I try to do those things and they usually end up being small and I'm like, anybody could come, but like it just kind of brings another layer to inside <inaudible> and meeting somebody else in podcasting and then, you know, having other information and I see even Genesio loves <inaudible> podcast now, so like, you know, it's just the whole connection. I was like, I love that because you all both talk about things that are you know, true to you and the things you like, but it connects to each other. So I just, I loved that it was a connection made um, in the podcast. Oh my gosh. They am like I'm going to New York soon. I might. I'm in Portland, Maine right now. I'm going to New York on Monday and in, in a week and um, I'm excited because I think we're gonna maybe do a little podcast crossover I'm gonna interview them Uuhh So really nervous. <laugh> <laugh> I'm excited. Okay. So, I mean this is Dockers, but of course I listened to your podcast so I um, heard you know, that you're gonna be in New York. I'm gonna be in New York too, so I think we'll be there at the same time. I get there next Wednesday because I think you said you were there for a little while. Um, yeah. Yes. I think we're gonna be in New York together again. Just letting you know. <laugh> <inaudible> Let's do a meet up Okay, cool. I'm with it. So I'm excited about all of that and thank you for coming to the branch and he's talking about a branch. I was in New York earlier and I give anybody the option to come. I usually pick a branch place and say, did you know, come branch me, let's meet up. And it's just usually just a few people, like five or six people and we talk about everything we like and everybody likes podcasts. So it's a normal thing nobody's like explaining what's going on. <laugh> It's just a deep conversation and by the end you have a whole bunch of new podcast to try because we've talked about them the entire time. So just something if I'm in town or if anybody is in town, they offered to talk about podcasts, go it's fun at least to me. Um… Yeah, it was great. And I, you know, I wasn't sure like uh, uh, if, you know, a lot of times as like a white Latino. I'm like, I don't know if I belong in this space, but I was like, fuck it, I love it Barry I'm gonna go. Oh please, like… <laugh> <laugh> Am gonna see what happens. Anybody I would have loved it, could have been just <inaudible>. I'm like, I'm looking at a person that if one person shows up to something I do, like, we are at least gonna be able to talk. Like I'm not going to be talking to myself. So <laugh> At least I have that. Okay. So we did mention your podcast, which is called Latinos Who Lunch and I was on your podcast earlier this year when you were visiting Denver. Yeah. Um, so can you tell us a little bit about your podcast? Yeah, well I didn't finish my top five yet. <laugh> Oh, I'm sorry. Look at me interrupting the thing. There we go. <laugh> Well Okay, well let me just do it again. So De Colores radio… Then t v q and j that's where we got stopped. <laugh>. Mh, mh. Then there's this podcast with two drag queens in, in New York, uh, Grizzly Kiki. They're both Latinas, they're hilarious. Uh, then, uh, I love my music podcast, my Latino music podcasts or radio Menea and song Mess. I'm always listening to those two. I see song Mess so much lately. It seems like maybe they're growing, but it feels like I see something about them like every week. Yeah, I think uh, Richard, Richardthina as I call him, he's in Mexico city, so he's doing a lot of, he's sometimes comes out with like two episodes a week, so that's probably why you're seeing them a lot. He got the content coming. Got It. <laugh> He knows how to keep it coming. Okay. Um, so as I was saying, interrupting your top five, but um, your podcast is named Latinos Who Lunch and can you tell us about your podcast? Yeah, so Latinos Who Lunch was started I think a couple years ago now, and it was started by me and my friend Bob Alito, Aka Dr Emanuel Ortega, who is uh, Art Historian and I'm an artist and um, I am just an avid podcast listener. So from the very beginning, uh, you know, it was mostly NPR stuff that I would hear and then I started listening to a lot of comedy podcasts and eventually I found podcasts like the Read and uh, For Colored Nerds and I'm like, I wish there was a podcast with like two Latinos just shooting the shit just talking. And after the read, which is like two queer people of Color… Mh. I'm like, why? I haven't found a podcast that's like two Queer Latino just talking. And so finally one day I was like, fuck it, let's just start our own podcast. And we started recording our conversations. Well, at first it started during lunch and then people told us they didn't like the chewing. <laugh> <laugh> So now we record them after having lunch. Yeah. Oh you know. So we've, <laugh> we've been doing the podcast, I think we have over 115, uh, recordings because we used to do mini episodes, but now they're just full episode. Okay. And I do like, I mean this is something you would, even when you're traveling because you travel a lot because of your art, at least a lot to me, um, that, you know, you're in different states and then you're um, setting up the different things you're doing that you still commit to, you know, except during the summer, I think you all took a little bit of a break but commit to uh, taping while traveling. And I appreciate that. Like while you're all across the world telling us about all your cool adventures. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Um, yeah, that's been hard. And um, but we were gonna to it. We're gonna keep going and releasing content every week. Um, we've actually been thinking about re-releasing some old episodes because I know that podcast do oncore episodes once in a while when they need to take a break. But yeah, I don't, I don't think we've missed a week since we started. Owe. That's not something many can say. I know it's not something I can say. Um, <laugh> <laugh> Let's see, um, with your podcast, is there like an episode that you would tell people to start with or an episode people mentioned a lot there that are like, this is how I get people hooked to your podcast. I tell him, listen to this episode. They love it and they go, listen everything else. Oh my gosh, uh, uh, pretty much any episode after episode eight. Okay. I think that's when we got our new equipment. <laugh> <laugh> You could actually hear us. Um, let's see what I mean, I really liked the episode. I think it's episode 21 where we talk about, uh, the complexities of like new Mexican uh, Chicano identity. Mhh. That was really a fun one um, because we really get into it. Um, and then, uh, the one that we recorded called Not My Monument, I think is also a really good one where you kind of get political. I like the ones, uh, that we do that are a little bit more research based. Um, I think those are really fun to listen to. <inaudible> I think it might've been earlier this year on colorism um, and that one was really good. Oh yes. Um, it mentions <crosstalk> it in the Ta. Yeah. <inaudible> Didn't entitled, but I just remember like listening to that like, Oh yeah, you guys went in. Okay. What the History. Okay. <inaudible> <laugh> What am I still remember that. But I mean I've listened to a lot of different episode because that's just one that sticks out to me. Yeah, I mean it's hard to say because now our podcast is a little bit all over the place and, and now we've really, we've kind of had this formula where we do an interview and then it's just us two if we can, you know, because a lot of people just like to hear us talk to each other. Um, so we're trying to kind of cover everything, which I know we're not gonna be able to please everybody, but we also have fun doing it. So… I feel like, you know, as long as you're okay with it, it's fine. But I do love that format that you all include other people. So I get to hear about, you know, other people and jobs and things that I might not have heard about or you know, just things I wouldn't have heard about and then it's under something with you all but kind of being silly. You're talking about yourselves in the next episode. So it's like I feel connected but I'm also getting the information I know you guys wanna spread. So I like that. I appreciate it. I notice it. So yeah. <laugh> Okay. Thank you. Um, so I didn't say, so you listening to other podcasts, it's kind of what got you into podcasting. How have you discovered more podcast because it's because of you. I've discovered more Brown podcast and I will say Latinex podcast, but how did you discover like, you know, grow in that space. That's it. Listening to podcast, I tell all the Latino podcasts out there that are trying to get a bigger audience. Like when's the last time you shouted out another podcast? From the very beginning, I remember um, one of the podcasts that I would listen to back back, back in the day was Mark Merrin's podcast WTF. Mhh. And um, where he would interview a comedian and then the comedian said, oh, I'm actually, I actually have my own podcast, and then I would listen to their podcasts and then they'd have other, you know, so through there I just started finding all these different podcasts. So yeah, I mean the, the medium itself, you know, is kind of niche depending on what you're listening to. So I mean, I, that's how I learned about Marsha's plate was through a tea with Queen and Jay and uh, you know, just podcasts you find, you find out about podcasts rather podcast. Pretty much. That's what I think too. Like when you saying that, I'm like, I liked that other people see the same thing. Like it's not just me. Hopefully I like, this is how it should be. Okay. So question because you, was it earlier this year that there was the, I want to say Latin X festival. I don't know if I'm saying that correct but Pastereo. Am I saying that wrong? it's something near that. Uh, we did. Uh, we did uh, we hosted an event at a Latin X film festival. What You're talking about Podcastereo Festival? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Podcastereo festival was last November. Oh, okay. And it was all Latin X, like a podcast uh, festival in LA that we put together really quick in a couple months. Oh, I didn't know that was only done in a couple of minutes. It seemed really good. Are you all planning to do that again at all? Well, I, we actually have a phone call tomorrow <laugh> <laugh> To see if we're going to do it again, but uh, I hope so. I hope we do uh, because it was really amazing. We had uh, just from, from setting it up like two months ahead of time, we had 17 podcasts show up and set up their tables with merge and then we had panels all day long. Um, at uh, La Plaza, I think it's called La Plaza La Cuntura in downtown LA. So it was so many people there. It was so cool to meet all these different podcasters. People flew in all the way from like Texas and Boston, New York it was really cool. Mh. Okay, well let me know if you're doing it again. I am planning on doing something. I didn't wanna do it next year. It just felt like a lot of things were popping up. So I'm gonna try to do a conference the year after next in 20 / 20. Um, so like um, you know, just thinking of something in collective. I've been seeing a lot of people doing things and so I just want to make sure it's done right and like even if it's small, like I want it to be them with the details I want and I don't want it to feel rest because when everything I do anything rushed, I feel disappointed in the end. So I'm trying to treat this how thing I'm treating new things like <laugh> giving myself to flush it out, make sure that it's right in reaching out to sponsors and other things. And things are coming together with me just saying it. So I feel like I'm on the right path of saying this is gonna happen and when it's gonna happen for what I'm on. So we'll see. <laugh> Yeah. Awesome. Okay. So um, with podcasting, is there a number one podcast tip that you give to other podcasters? Because if you have a podcast, people always ask, you know, you know, do you have advice and things like that. Is there a number one thing we're like, this is what you should know or what I would tell somebody else with a podcast. I think you just have to do it. I mean, a lot of people are afraid to start or a lot of people uh, aren't consistent. Um, so I don't know like when we started, I, I actually don't know what this recording sounds like, might not be that good because it's like new equipment that I have, but… Oh no wait till you hear it. At least to me it sounds we're going to say almost like we were in the same room, so you'll just wait to hear it. <laugh> <laugh> But um, consistency's really important and just just not giving up. And, I let me know. I love learning so much and I didn't realize Latinos who lunch would become a business almost, you know. Uh, and so now, uh, now that I have like my art career and Latinos Who Lunched really taking off, I'm gonna to have to hire somebody to like manage that. Um, so I don't know, just kind of rolling with the punches I think and, and sticking with it. That's my advice. Leveling up. I like it. I feel like that's um, when you know Kefi's manager, Alex started like managing a reading or you know, started expanding and that's when they were able to, you know, blow up more. Like they didn't have to concentrate on a thing she was doing. So I mean that could be just the next step until everybody knows your name because I believe they will <laugh>. Your energy, the art, I love it. If you look at his Instagram, you get to see like some of the spirit of what he does and you can just feel the energy it's good. It's good energy. I'm not surprised when you're traveling other places and people are inviting you and giving you awards and things like it's well deserved. Oh my gosh. That was crazy yes. Yes. And you're like, is this happening? Yes, it's happening. <laugh> Oh my gosh. Yeah. The imposter, the imposter syndrome was so strong last year. <laugh> I feel like it gets like that because you're like, really? Really like, I mean, I know I work hard, but really like you know <laugh> in the midst of the work, you're like, somebody better think of me doing good one day and then they're thinking you're doing good and your life really, I mean it was okay. I, I did that. <laugh> Yeah. <laugh> So with your art I was gonna say what are you doing right now and is there anything anyone can see or go see in person? I know you do different things in different states. Uh, yeah. Okay. I have a few things right now, I have a show. I just installed a solo exhibition at the Berman Museum, which is in Collegeville Pennsylvania. For anybody that wants to make a little road trip who lives in Philly, <laugh> it's about an, It's about like 45 minutes away from Philadelphia. So, uh, the Berman Museum has my show up through December uh, 17th, I believe. And we're actually gonna do a live Latinos Who Lunched there October second, Mh. Um, which will be really cool. Am just <inaudible> Um, yeah. And then, uh, I also have an installation at that very same museum and a different wing and that'll be up through July next year so you could see that anytime I have artwork, uh, also in the UK at the Brewery Art Museum and Sculpture Center, a big pile of Nachos uh, <laugh> And then right now I'm about to go to New York and install work at the sugar hill children's Museum of art and storytelling and that's uh, that's in Sugar Hill, like in Harlem Okay. And that uh, that will opens up mid October and is gonna be up for a full year Look at you. So do you have anything how you said like some things are up for a year, some things are until next summer. Do you keep track of that anywhere on a webpage or anything like the ongoing thing? <laugh> <laugh> Sorry to stress you if you don't. Okay. Just asking, just asking. I'm gonna, I'm gonna get there. I'm gonna get there eventually uh, I do need to update my artist's website, which is my, my name Justin favilla.com. Um, and there is a news and updates tab there that will eventually be updated so people can see everything that I'm into, that I'm doing. Ok, well that's there. Of course, as I said on his Instagram, um, like we'll see different pictures of different art he's done across the thing um, the world and his Instagram stories. I feel like I could do that also. I love them. <laugh> Well thank you for joining me today and talking about your podcast and taking the time because I just felt like when we work remotely and we don't have nine to five, it can just be like, do I have the time, you know, it seems like there's time but you're always kind of working. So <laugh> I appreciate you taking a moment to talk to me. No, thank you so much for thinking of me. I'm so excited and you know, I am a big fan and ever since I found you because of the read and you know, uh, became, I mean submitted my podcast to podcast and color.com. I was just so excited to just like be on your radar. So this is such an honor to be on your show. Thank you so much. No problem. Oh, and you saw that thing the other day. I saw you guys, you posted it, but like this, someone came up to me at an event, a podcast event in Denver and was like, I found you through Latinos Who Lunch and I was like shut up like, you know, you know, things like that might happen, but then like somehow I feel like I could have like, let me just let you know, like this is how I found you. So I was like, it works. <laugh> That is so cool. I love our listeners are so cool. They're so nice. So maybe next time I'm here in Denver again, we'll have to have some type of meetup maybe. Um, people would come out and we do some type of, you know, she did it for people to do things. I'll be in Denver in October. I'll see you soon. Shut up yes, okay <laugh> <laugh> This is working out so you just speak into existence. Yeah. So we'll confirm that and we'll put something up because of course we got to do something. Cool. Awesome. Okay, well thank you and have a good rest of your day Justin. You too. Bye. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to another episode of podcast and color the podcast. Um, of course, feel free to email me if you have any questions or comments, podcasts and color@gmail.com. And otherwise I'll see you in two weeks. It might be one week because I kind of want to catch up and get back on schedule so we'll see how that goes. But at some point I will get back on schedule because I will have the amount of episodes I should have for this last season. I am doing podcasts consulting for the winter. Um, if you're looking to get a jumpstart on what you'll be doing in 2019, you can look at the podcast consulting button on the website and I'm willing to talk to you about building strategy um, for 2019. So maybe you're looking at social media strategy, your podcast strategy or thinking of things you can clean up or you just wanted an outsider to kind of look at your podcast or your website or your podcast, social media to see what you can improve and how you can streamline things so everything can be better in the future. And if you'd like me to do that, I am available for podcasts consulting. That will just be for the winter um, in the spring. I'll have other things to do. I am looking to add a full time job to my life. So I'm giving this time of anyone else wants to speak with me to give the time to talk to you about your podcast, to talk to you about your social media. So talk to you about hashtags because next year I'm gonna be a little bit busier. So if you are looking to talk to me, if you want to talk to me one on one, this is the time. 

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+Welcome back to another episode of Podcasts in Color, the podcast. I'm Berry, lover of podcast. This is a super late episode, but it's here. This episode will be on podcast tips, questions I receive a lot, and things I think others should know, so you can make better decisions about your podcast. So, if you make a podcast, this will be helpful to you. If you don't, I can understand on skipping this episode, but if you know someone with a podcast that has questions, I do think this episode will be helpful, and if you're listening, and you share this episode on social media, I would love if you include the hashtag PodsInColorpod, so that I could find it, and like it, because I will find it, and like it, and maybe repost it, and that sort of thing. Use it in your Instagram stories, and I will watch your Instagram story. That's the same with Pods in Color, when you're sharing your podcast, or a podcast you're a guest on, and that's the same with pod in, when you're listening to a podcast. I love watching all those Instagram stories, seeing what people are listening to. I love the shots of people's car radios, because it just shows that you're in motion, and that's how we are. Um, so just letting me know, um, what you're listening to on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, using any of the hashtags, I do appreciate it. PodsInColorpod, when you're listening to this podcast, and then Pods in Color, when you're just sharing podcasts you like, your podcast, podcasts you're a guest on, and then pod in, when you are listening to a podcast, when you're checking other people out, because it is a p- because it is important to support other podcasts, as many as we're creating, because that's how we grow. Thank you for all who have been buying merch. Of course I'll put in a merch link in the episode notes, so if you would like a podcast shirt, or jacket, or pullover, that is all on there. Even a long sleeve shirt, just so people know, um, you know, listening to a podcast, and you would like them not to talk to you, because that's what I'm all about. Um, first, I'll start with a few podcast tips that I love, episode notes. I will link to a few different episode notes that I love in the epi- in my episode notes. In episode notes, I look for what the podcast is about, and social media links for the podcast, and if there's a guest on the podcast, social media links for them also. I think the future of podcasting, and it's already showing in some of the newer apps, is that search in podcast apps, are going to search podcast episode notes, um, to help more discovery as we grow. So, if you're already ready, you don't have to get ready when we see that feature coming out more, and more. About some of the things someone will search, and you want them to find your podcasts under those search terms, and think about including those in your episode notes. This is a long game, and a new media, so thinking of things that will help you in the future, I believe, or you know, how most of the people that will be successful in the future will be successful. First, I'll start with a few podcast tips that I love, and that I repeat a lot. The first one, is gonna be on episode notes, and of course I will link some of my favorite, um k- examples of episode notes, in my episode notes. I look for what the podcast is about, and social media links for the podcast, and if there's a guest, social media links for them, also. I think the future of podcasting, and it's already showing in some of the newer apps, will be searching podcast <inaudible> are going to search episode notes, as discovery is more work done. So, you can think in terms of what someone will search to find your podcast, or what terms you think that people would search to find your podcast, and make sure those are in your episode notes. This is just like SEO on Google, and of course, Google podcast is in the game now. Think about the things that someone will search, and you will want them to find your podcast, like Tea with Q, and Jay is always talking about that they're a womanist podcast, so I remember when I was a guest on their podcast, I would say that would be something you would Google, to see if that you're coming up. If somebody says, Oh, I'm looking for a podcast that does that, is that something you come up on the first page? So, it's really about like podcast SEO, dealing with episode notes like, will people be able to find you from the information in your episode notes in the future, and as more podcast apps deal with discovery, and searching, you know, episode notes. Will that help you be found? Because we're all about being found. For my number two, it'd be a good social media profile. I love one that has an Android, and iOS link in the profile. You know, Linktrees are free people. If you do have an Instagram account, and a Linktree will let you put a bunch of different links to a bunch of different places. So, you could have Apple, Android, Pocket Cast, CastBox, RadioPublic, you know, all the different links of where someone could be listening, so they can find your podcast, or link that they can use on their phone for your podcast. My next tip would be, Google your podcast name while you aren't signed into Google, and this is something I do. I always sign out, and then I'm searching things in Google, so it's not just saving the things I search, and giving the things that they think I wanna see, because I've Googled it before. You would be surprised with how many podcast names you can search on Google, Twitter, and Instagram, and not find the podcast, because they are using a quirky name, or an abbreviation of their name, or there are tons of people with the same name, or a name close to it. Ooh, you're also gonna wanna search in Apple podcast. I've noticed that there's people that don't get the information that they put into where they host their podcast, that that RSS feed that they're putting into iTunes connect, is just reading that information, and regurgitating it to other people. So, they'll have their podcast name in the information, but it won't be in the correct place, so what people are post a search in Apple podcast, will sometimes be their personal name, or the name of their brand, but not the podcast. So, it's something to search in Apple podcast, and think, What do people need to search, to find my podcast in Apple podcast? and once you know that, that's something you can say. If you're an Apple podcast, you're gonna search Podcasts in Color. I love being able say, no matter what, if you're on Google, if you're in a podcast app, it's all Podcasts in Color to find a content from me, sin- I also make sure to go in those different things, and search it, to make sure that I am coming up under those things. You're not searching it, and then I'm next to you like, Wait, oh wait, do you- what do you search to find me? Hold on, I'll just send you a link. No, how do I find you? That should be easy, and if you're not easy to find, your podcast is not gonna get bigger. So, that's just something thinking in your head, are you easy to find everywhere? Are you easy to find, and is it easy for you to tell people how to get to you? So, if you're thinking in terms of steps, think about how many steps you would take. If somebody tells you over three steps to find them somewhere, are you really going home, and saying, I'm going to find you the 10 steps that it takes to find that person, or what I might need to do, and then follow back up with that person, so, just something to think about. Okay, next is, how to listen if you have a website. So, and this is something not a lot of people have, I've seen it on a couple of different websites, and I'll p-include episodes, I'll include examples in the episode notes, and this is for if you aren't bringing new people to podcast, your podcast is not going to grow. Every huge podcast has people who listen, who barely know what a podcast is, but they listen to that show. I really liked what Renee had to say about growing a podcast, using the Receipts podcast as an example, and I'll play that clip here. They gave you a show that does that on records. It's something that you wanna listen to. You want to be part of it, and you want to share it, and so you hear it, it makes you laugh, and you share it. They found a niche in that, and they've found a podcast audience that didn't know they would like podcasts. Yeah. They've got an audience that just had Soundcloud's, that would just press play on something that they would like, this certainly looks interesting, let me press play. Before you know it, they're listening to a podcast, they're sharing a podcast, they're subscribing to the podcast. They're communicating, they're taking part in conversation online, and that's what's kind of, that's what makes a podcast successful. You can have the big brand, you can have Apple like, put you on the home page, and things like that, but does that convert into big longevity of people talking about you online, and wanting to hear your content? No. It's about the hosts, and pushing, and pushing, and pushing. Say, consistency, cadence, with publishing, promoting yourself. Yeah. And, you mentioned Twitter as a platform? Twitter, Twitter's a good one. I'm not on Facebook, so I don't know how that works anymore. Right. But um, Instagram's a good one. Any social media, it's just mention the podcast. Talk about, anyway you can encourage conversation, um, it is super hard to grow a podcast, and people are still trying to figure out how. It's about finding a niche audience, and making sure that audience that you wanna target have it in front of them. Right. Which is the- one of the hardest things, because half the time, you want, you know what audience you want, but you don't know how to get it in front of them, or you've just gotten or- it's for black people. Yeah. Um, that you know, that's <inaudible> Cause we're all the same, aren't we? You're not <inaudible> look at all these black folks, we're the same people. Exactly, our interests the same, because we were black. Of course. And that was from Blackticulate, and I'll link of course, in the episode notes. Going from that, um, you know that I love hashtags, and um, the Receipts Podcast, of course, does use a hashtag. They only have a Instagram account, as far as having social media, but I really do believe hashtags are easy, because to me, when someone adds you, it can be confusing, and if they're looking for a response, or if they're just posting about your content, and wanting to direct others back to you, so that they can listen to your content also. And here's a clip for Phoebe, kind of explaining how hashtags works for the Receipts podcast, and how it's helped them grow. One thing that I will say, that I think has really contributed to the success of the Receipts Podcast that people don't really think about, is hashtags. That's what we use on to- we don't hav- even have an uh, Twitter account. Right. All of us have our individual Twitter accounts, and then we use the hashtag to speak about the podcast, and I think that really works, because you don't have to at anyone if you wanna talk about the podcast. You just write your tweet, and then you put the hashtag in, and then everyone can see it. So I think, you know, I listen to a lot of different podcast, and I often see people speaking about the podcast, but I can't find those conversations, because they're written at the handle, instead of having a hashtag that everyone can go in, um, and everyone is used to going to, and tweeting about. Because, if you introduce a hashtag like, halfway through, people are so used to atting you, so they'll just continue to do it, and so no one has ever been able to at any Receipts handle, because we don't have one. And that was Phoebe as I said, and that was another clip of Blackticulate, and she used to be a co-host of the Receipts podcast, she has since left the show. Hashtags are great, because they give fans a place to connect on social media, and that can be any social media platform, without the podcast necessarily needing to have an account on that service. Also, on Instagram now, hashtags are something people can follow. Also, if you're on Instagram now, hashtags are something people can follow, and that people use them in their own Instagram story. It creates an Instagram story under that hashtag, that anyone following the hashtag sees. So, another good way to spread information about your podcast. If you can get people to follow a hashtag, or use that in their stories, so that other people are able to click on it, and see what's going on with that hashtag, leading people back to you. You can also Google hashtags, and tweets come up, and Instagram I believe is like, usually the third, or fourth link, if that hashtag is being used on Instagram for you to check out what people are doing with that hashtag on Instagram. So, that's Twitter, and Instagram that are right away. If somebody says, Let me Google, let's figure out what this hashtag is about. That will lead people back to your content, if you're using a hashtag, and making sure that it leads back to your content. I personally don't wanna follow every podcast host, even though I'll love their podcast, it's just not always for me, the content they talk about all the time. So, a podcast hashtags, kind of give me a connection to the host, because my favorite hosts do of course, scroll, read, and respond under their podcast hashtags, so I don't necessarily need to follow them, and they don't need to follow me, for us to talk about their podcast, and how cool is that? I love it. You know, with the Receipt's podcast, with Insecurity, with Tea with Q and J, you can search these podcast hashtags, you can see other people talking about it, and talk to them, and respond to them, because they're having fun with the content, and also, the podcasts um, hosts will interact with you under the tag, and mention it, so that you can find other people. So, it's just a whole circle of things that kind of keeps you involved in the podcast, 24 seven, and you know you can find people talking about the podcast. That's one of a big thing for me, there's a new podcast called, Don't At Me, with Justin Simien, I think I said his name correctly, but because of how the show is is, is don't, and they use an at, it's not able to have it hashtag, so I haven't been able to find anybody else listening to the show. I'm sure people do, but to me, part of the podcast listening experience, is to be able to find other comments about the show, and be able to find other people that I might be able to talk to, or tweet about, and say, Do you listen to this? and when I can't find that, it's really hard for me to get into a new show. So, one thing you'll notice about popular shows, and so- shows that grow big pretty quickly, is you'll see a lot of chatter about them on different social media network, s and there's not always a podcast. It's listeners connecting, and just talking about the podcast, and to me, that is a big thing, with making sure that listeners can talk about a podcast, and find each other talking about podcasts. Here's a clip from Call your Girlfriend, giving information about ad sales, and this starts with Gina talking, and then you hear Ann, and then you hear Aminatou. My recollection is that, from the first one around the time we left the first network, we had in the range of 50,000 weekly listeners. Which is, for people who are like, I wanna start a podcast, and make money. It's like, I feel like that is, as I understand it now, kind of like, the minimum threshold for getting someone interested in selling ads on your behalf. Maybe it's a little bit less than that. Yeah, well like, we know-we know podcasts who are smaller than, like way smaller than that that sell ads, but I think that like, in general, that's a good thing. But they have institutional affiliations. Yeah, that's fair. Well, no… And so I think- really? So, we'd been going for at least a year, I think when we had this, these conversations, and had about 50,000 listeners an episode roughly, or so we thought. Like, the numbers are all- this is the thing about podcast numbers where Amina is totally right, is that they're all kind of a scam, and no one really knows how many people are listening to anything, with any degree of sureness. Yeah, it's super, it's super nefarious, and you know, it's like… Atom bomb. it really is. Since then, since this was recorded, um, the numbers of podcasting have gotten a little bit easier, because of the IAB, and they're kind of rolling out guidelines, and people are attempting to follow them, and being IAB compliant is a thing. And so basically, they're hoping that, with more rules in this space, and what people classify as a download, and a listen, and different things like that, it will make it easier for more advertisers to come into this space, and put more ad dollars into the space, and I'll link information on that, because you can go way deep into that, um, in the episode notes Call Your Girlfriend was a part of the 2014 podcast boom, which saw an easier path um, for some of those podcasts, for listeners during that time, because of Serial, and other things being released, and a lot of people learning about podcasting. Here's another clip um, by Call Your Girlfriend, talking about how much they- money they make from ads, and what they feel you could take from it. How much do podcast sponsorships pay? I don't know. It depends. I understand there's a wide range. How much does it cost to produce per episode? Well, you just heard eight, to 15 hours of Gina's time, so obviously, we're not being paid. We're not paying her, like an hourly rate that you truly deserve… Yeah Gina, you should really redo your contracts. Yeah. But the answer, in terms of production costs, is really like, the production cost at this point now that we've invested in equipment is our time, correct? Yeah. Sometimes we rent a studio, like the Huma Abedin interview that we did. You know, we rented a studio for that. We found a professional to record with Huma on site, They, the campaign took a photograph for us, we had that. Um, we paid for transcription, I mean, there's some stuff for special, special episodes I believe, shelled out a little more money, just to make sure that it really pops for you guys. Do we want to answer how much you podcast sponsorships pay? Well, I mean, I guess it just depends on the CPM. I think we even have like, different CPM, like every week, so… Don't take less than 20 dollars. Uh, or something like that. I think it depends like, how big your audience is, or whatever. Right. But, because I've seen, um, kind of like on our invoice list, like even per week, like, it fluctuates how much money we make just depending on-on what ads were sold, and what the relationship of the advertiser is. Right, but like essentially, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, and maybe we don't want to say this on air, but like the, like, we're talking like, you know, four figures to get onto our show minimum, right? Like, it's not like there's like a sponsorship for a couple hundred bucks. Oh yeah, there's definitely, yeah, definitely. And um, and no one asks, so… Right. One thing I wanted to talk about, on Instagram a couple of weeks ago, I did a poll asking people who have co-hosts, Do you have something written up, saying who owns what, if money came into the picture, and you know, so things wouldn't go sour quickly, and the results were horrible. I want to say it was like 80 percent, 20 percent of people saying that they didn't have anything written up of like, you know, when money comes in, or if an advertiser wants to come in, and pay us 2,000 dollars, is it 1000 dollars, and 1000 dollars, or is maybe 1300, and then 700? You know, does the person that's doing editing get paid more, or have more of a say in the space? Like, there's a lot of questions that I don't think people really consider, and you know, you could already pre-discuss that. I mean, don't we all listen to Therapy for Black Girls? Um, you can already have that settled out, so when those things come up, you're not all in the moment, and emotional about trying to make those business decisions. We've all seen the documentaries, and the singing groups, and wrath in groups that split up because of money. I mean, even New Edition like, how old are they now? And they're still having issues with trademarks, and creating new names, and things like, a mess. Like, if you haven't seen that, that's something to kind of read up on, because that still surprised me. I would've thought they would've figured out some of their issues by now. Um, and there was a thing with podcasts, that happened about trademarks, and you know, agreements, and contracts, and what needed to happen about that, and… I'll talk about it a little bit. Um, have you heard of ShoutOut podcast network? It's based out of London. They had the first black podcast festival in London in 2017, in August. The Friend Zone attended, they were one of the bigger podcasts, I wanna say the Brilliant Idiots went also. After the festival, um, it seemed like that's where things changed. ShoutOut London was really network to be on, I would say like, it reminded me of the beginning of <inaudible>, with good buzz, and good shows. And so, you know, that just takes, you know, a spark in, you know, the consistency to keep going, and it was becoming known as a network to get on in London, because they were creating good shows by black people. But after the festival, the UK podcasts, well, some of the UK podcasts that participated, claim they hadn't been paid, and then the shows that had the biggest buzz on the network l-l, either left, or disbanded, a few weeks after the festival. This is a letter from Satia, who was a co-host of Melanin Millennials, and talking about the breakup that happened, and this post is from a Twitter post, and I will link to it in the episode notes, so you can see like, when this went down, it was all over twitter, it was… kind of crazy. This is from a tweet, and that tweet is from September 15th, 2017. Um, the tweet says, Hey, congregation, sadly, I can no longer put off addressing what's been happening regarding the podcast. Um, so here goes: Satya here, co-creator, and co-host Melanin Millennials, parentheses MM, parentheses, podcast. Following some of the revelations about the Shout Out network, parentheses, son, parentheses, from my fellow podcasters. I would like to provide my perspective, and transparency, and transparency, on how all this came to be. It's taken a lot for me to arrive at this point, the point where I have no choice, but to put pen to paper, in order to shout out the truth. I feel I owe it to our listeners, to our concerned supporters, and finally to myself, as a route to moving on. As announced by the SON yesterday, they are no longer supporting Melanin Millennials, or to be more precise, no longer supporting the show with my involvement. Consequently, I have been removed from my position as co-host, and denied my rights as co-creator. MM arose, when my former friend, and current CEO of SON, Imriel Morgan, informally asked me to start a podcast with her. In September, slash October of 2015, I came aboard, and we worked together on the format, on our mission, and I christened the show with it's name. All were original ideas with no external input, and Imriel was not affiliated with SON, but became it's CEO, months after MM's launch. I was also told that her boyfriend, Efe, founder of SON, was interested in curating a network of podcasts, and that MM would be the first attempt at this endeavor. All this was done, on the basis of a verbal agreement. Prior to MM's launch, that whatever we, parentheses, myself, and Imriel parentheses created as MM, was ours, that SON's role would be to record, distribute, and no contracts were signed, until almost a year after MM's inception. On September 17th of August this year, I met Efe, and Imriel, and was a form that- and was informed that they would no longer go on with the show, on the network. On the 22nd of August, I received an email, Imriel stating her intention to continue with the show on the network, with new host, in a new format, something that had never been discussed with me. I also learned that SON had begun to look for my replacement. The biggest revelation however, was that SON owned the trademark to the show, and that they had done so without my knowledge, and consent. They began that process, on the 15th of September, 2016, as we were deciding on MM's future, parallel to the contract negotiations. I also have no access to all MM related accounts. The past few years with Melanin Millennials, I have dedicated hours of my personal time to create content, record, and promote the podcast, and to do so much of the behind scenes needed, to make the podcast what it is today. I did this for not any personal gain, but because I believed in our mission of amplifying the voices of black British millennials, celebrating our work, and openly discussing our challenges. I have loved being a part of Melanin Millennials, and am deeply upset by not being afforded transparency, agency, and ownership as the podcast has grown. I can not say what will happen next. I will say, that I do intend to reclaim ownership of the content I created for the podcast. This is the first step of many… telling you my story. I have enjoyed my time on MM, I am incred- I am incredibly proud of what I have achieved, and regret that this has been cut short against my will. I wanna thank all the listeners, well wishers, and supporters of the podcast, and my role in it, since its inception. You are what has made this journey so exciting, and fun. I've had the absolute privilege of meeting, and interacting with some of you. I hope you will continue to support me, and my journey, as I determine what is next. Love to other all the congregation, Satia, and she leaves her at, and of course, I'll link that in the episode notes. And so, that podcast um, was one of the breakout hits. That was the network to be on. Um, the two black women, it was two black women in the UK, talking about UK issues, and pop culture and it was original. I liked it, and mostly, LIT, is an example of one of the podcasts that left the network, but was able to sustain on their own, and even grow bigger since leaving ShoutOut. And so, it was a couple of different- it was a few different podcasts that left the network, at the time they talked about trademark issues, and then contracts, and there was a lot of confusion, and so, that's kind of why I bring up agreements, because you can be starting something great, and then, you know, being that things aren't being discussed, you don't know how it's all gonna come out, or who's gonna claim credit, or what credit is. And so, it's easier to just say right off, you know, This is what you own, this is what you have, and you know, this is what I have, and let's talk about it. ShoutOut, um, you know, the podcast network, went on this year to have a podcast conference, that was focused on women. Um, but because of the split in the podcast community, because of the things that happened with, um, those podcasts, and more, I wasn't able to find anyone who attended their conference to tell me how it was, but I did see pictures on the internet, and it did look like a fun time. They do have a few current podcasts running, like Wanna Be, And I will link that in the episode notes. If you would like to check out the podcast on ShoutOut London's um, podcast network. Also, Spotify chose them to run their program, to kind of mirror the Women of Color Spotify event they did here, and they're running that in London. Unlike our side, Renee from my last episode that you can see, is someone to know in London, and making her own space, and also has the background in podcasting, hasn't been reached out to, and I would think with the smaller community of women of color in podcasting there, that she would have been reached out to, to be a part of it, because on the United States side, the teachers they brought in that were women of color, they were, you know, some of the best in their field, and able to come in there and say, You know, this is how I do what I do. So, that's a little bit strange. So, I hope that kind of changes on, you know, working with that, especially for Spotify, because it feels like something would be missing if with Renee wasn't a part of that, especially if they're teaching women, and she's one of the most successful black women in podcasting, in London. To end this, we're talking about intellectual property. Here's a clip from a panel that Caitlin Thompson, who used to be with Acast did, talking about intellectual property, and of course I'll link all these panels in the episode notes, that you can listen to the full thing, and these are more on the sponsorship posts on my website, under the podcast in color news, pods in colored-, under Pods in color news. Just to say, what about IP? And um, am I selling out if I, you know, give my podcast idea to someone else, and what does that mean? And, and Caitlin, I know we've had a lot of discussion around this. It's probably worth talking about that, as a point, um… Yep, it is. Um, like I said, Panoply does uh, something called the Pilot Project, WNYC he did two competitions, one called the bake off. Um, obviously we're here to talk about Podquest. Um, it's not a matter of selling out, it is selling out, um, and that's okay. You should wanna make money for your, for your craft. It's just a matter of how you think about um, what is an idea that you wanna keep for yourself, and not share the IP of, what is something that you're comfortable, and you need a co-producer to be able to breathe life into something, and therefore, the IP conversation's a little bit different. Um, the way that I would urge you to think about that is essentially, what kind of idea do you have? Is this an idea that is going to exist for the next year, but probably become replicable, and I'll use the same example that I did just now, Call Your Girlfriend, a show between two women, on different coasts of America, is a show that it's highly, highly replicable. They sold some of their IP, when they went to a co-production agreement, um, because they needed help making it, and it's also an idea that, the IP is less valuable in this case, because it is a replicable show. If you've got something that- you have a book, I used to work with a guy named Stephen Dubner, he wrote a book called Freakonomics. You better believe Stephen Dubner owns the IP to Freakonomics. So, he in no way, shape, or form, would ever sell any of it. For him, he wants to turn it into a book, or a TV series, a movie pilot, um, multiple other shows, that was the right choice for him. I say this totally neutrally, you can, and should sell out at the right moment. It's just a matter of, what's an idea that you can not execute without help, in which case, it's worth considering, or what's an idea that you know, that might never reach a full commercial potential, or you don't need help to make it reach a full commercial potential. Um, you know, and I think for me, it's again, not a question of uh, is this good or bad, it's just more of a question of when. So after figuring out, you know, what you needed to do to get ads, you've reached out, and you maybe have an agency, you know, there's other things going on, or you're like, Hey, add whatever, a thousand, you know, a thousand an episode. I was able to get an ad, and I need to know what to do. I always wanna make sure that people know about dynamic ad insertion, and it's something most can do. It depends on where you're hosting. Here's a clip from the Wolf Den, explaining DAI, and how it works. Let's start with dynamic ad insertion, and we'll do a quick primer, and if you think I get any facts wrong, let me know. But traditionally, historically, all podcast ads were baked in, meaning they were in the recording of the file itself. When Mark Maron, or when Marco Arment sat down at the microphone to record their shows, they would record their ads in there, and that's in the file that everybody downloads, and now some companies that are in the space, are increasingly using dynamic ad insertion, which says, Hey, let me insert an ad at specific points, that somebody has marked in this episode, at the time of download. Did that sound about right? Yeah, and so the idea basically, is like when you have, you know, the kind of old way of doing things, every download of the podcast gets the same set of ads. Whether you know, no matter where they are, no matter who they are, and no matter when they download the file, you know, they could download the file two years later, when the advertiser has long since stopped paying for it. Um, and you know, they still have that same ad for a company, it's from two years ago, that might not even exist anymore. Um, and then we, with dynamic ad insertion, you're literally getting a, the ads spliced in on every download. So, every download of the file, can have different ads in it, uh, than any, than every other download, even to the same person. That's right, and typically, w- you know, the folks that are doing that, are doing it for a couple of reasons in my experience. Um, <inaudible> some shows with DAI, and some many shows without, um, but you know, you're doing DAI, maybe so you can cap the downloads, right? If a show is so big, um, you know, does two million downloads an episode, and nobody can afford to buy all two million. You can chunk it up into 500,000 download chunks, and sell it that way. You might be doing it so you can try to target by Geo, or by date range. So, if it's a tune in campaign for a TV show, and say, Hey, if it's between these three weeks, put this ad in, and otherwise don't. Um, the way we chiefly use it, most of the time is back catalog. So, it's, if we can't get your ad in the newest episode of Comedy Bang Bang, or My Favorite Murder, maybe, but you have a time sensitive ad, we can run it for everybody who downloads older episodes, over the next X weeks. Also, here's a clip from Caitlin Thompson, explaining why you wanna use DAI. The only-the only thing I would tell you is, don't bake in your ads, and the reason I tell you that, is because you're gonna have to edit them out at some point. Um, you can have any sort of ad served to- dynamically, and I'm, you know, obviously work for a platform that does dynamic ad insertion, but having worked, and been friends with the Serial team, who had to go back, and edit out MailChimp ads for hours, and hours, and hours, what I can tell you is, there's almost no benefit in selling your show um, with a baked in ad, because that ad will sit with your show forever, after- long after you've cashed the check from the advertiser, and you don't make any new money, for the people two years down the road who discovered your show, right? DAI is interesting, because this past week, Welcome to Night Vale ended their episode, and it was episode 133, with three different ways using DAI, and this is from Hot Pod, this quote, and I'll of course, linked to Hot Pod if you're not subscribed, it is a podcast newsletter, and from here, it says… Here's the deal. Are you sure? The podcasts 133rd episode, features three different endings, that are delivered to listeners at random. The team relied on dynamic insertion technology, the increasingly am-ambiguous podcast tool that had- up to this point, had mostly been used for ads to build the experience. Quote, dynamic insertion is a fascinating technology to me, that different people can download different versions of an episode. Quote, said Joseph Fink, co-creator of Welcome to Night Vale. When we spoke over the phone about the experiment, a few weeks ago. Quote, it's kind of baffling that nobody's tried this before, quote, the Night Vale crew, who's ad sales are handled by PRX, and whose podcasts are handled by PRX's dovetail platform, only created three endings, because they were told that that was a maximum number the platform could reliably handle at this time. Isn't that interesting? And they were talking um, to the writers over at Hot Pod about that, and I just thought, Wow, so, you know, you gotta think about what dynamic and it-ad insertion can do for ads, and then also, you know, what you could creatively do with it in the future, with your podcast. You should really listen to the Wolf Den episode, because they talk about DAI, and how, what people can do with dynamic ad insertion, and who they can push it to, um, and what they can get down to when they're deciding what ad goes to what person. So, just something more to be interested in, if you're thinking about doing that, especially with bigger companies. Okay. So, um, let's talk about premium, because there are some people that have premium. I've talked a lot of myths about Stitcher premium, um, and so let's go into what it means to kind of, be on Stitcher premium, and this is from the Wolf Den podcast, which is hosted on Stitcher. There are shows that are small right now, that we can't make incredibly lucrative offers to on the ad sale side, because you know, if your show in quotes, only reaches uh, 30,000 downloads an episode, uh, what our ad sales can do for you is limited. But, if we can bundle in a premium component, and so you can tell people, By the way, you can hear a bonus episode twice a month, if you sign up for Stitcher premium, we give you a cut, because whoever you, you know, it's based on effectively, how many people are listening to your things, but you get a cut of the premium revenue, and we get a cut of the revenue obviously. And then stupidly, Apple also does, and if we can set things up uh, so that you're getting extra sources of income, we feel like that's good for podcasting, right? It's, it's finding more ways to entertain the folks who are so engaged, that they wanna- that are willing to pay more to listen, and it's finding extra revenue sources, more predictable, and recurring revenue sources, than ads that are maybe a little bit more immune to, uh, you know, um, what's going on with the economy, or what ad sale, ad buyer whims are, and that sort of thing. So, that kinda gives you a breakdown of why they would say, know, to join premium, especially for smaller shows, Stitcher hosts shows like Lavar Burton reads, and you can get access to episodes like, a week early, or a few days early if you're a subscriber. Um, they also have FRUIT, that was done by Issa Rae, and that was a fictional podcast, that was based on a football player that I believe was bi, and so if you look um, on Apple podcast, FRUIT has the first season there, but if you wanna hear the second season, that is only behind the premium wall for Stitcher. And um, coming out this week, which is on September the 12th, um, Stitcher premium will be adding a new black show, called Culture Genius, which is done by um, the women over at Black p-Joy mix tape, and I'll play that clip here. What's up? This is Amber Jay Phillips, the high priestess of black joy. And this again Jaz, the king of the south. And you might know us from our other podcast, The Black Joy Mixtape. Ayy, what do you do? Owww, but we have a new show called Culture Genius, a black as fuck game show. Jazmine, and I bring guests into the studio every week, and we ask some questions that you know, some of them you might know, some of them are myth, but they let us know more about black culture, and black communities in general. I do hope you support the Culture Genius podcast. That was a good, small preview, and as I said, I'll link the entire preview in the episode notes, and with the clip we heard about Stitcher premium, we know what it takes for a good podcast to do well on Stitcher premium, so I do hope that you go, and support Culture Genius. I will be doing that, I wanna hear what the podcast is about, and that's starting on, Culture Genius will be starting on September the 12th. Zane, also has a fictional podcast coming out, um, on, coming out called Purple Panties, and this is a show on Stitcher premium also. And um, I don't have a clip from the Zane, Purple Panties show, but if I do get one in the future, I will share that with you all. I do have podcast consulting, so if you wanna go deeper into any of these subjects, um, feel free to look at podcastsincolor dot com. The consulting link is in the menu, or on the top of the page, depending on if you're on mobile, or on your computer. This episode, was just kind of going over podcast tips I see all the time, and I wish people knew about, or new deeper about. So, if you do wanna go deeper, we can have conversations. As I said, I do have podcast consulting up on the site, and I will see you in about a week, and a half. I will be on time for the next episode, and that's on the 22nd, and I do have a guest for that episode, that will be FavyFav, from the Latinos Who Lunch podcast, and I'm excited about our interview. So, I hope to see you on the 22nd when I publish this podcast, and of course um, you can ask me any questions, use PodsinColorpod, you can at me on Twitter, and ask me questions. You can send me emails, and ask me questions, I do respond, even though it takes me forever on a email. If you liked this episode, and the information shared, please feel free to let me know, um, so I can know if you wanna do more things like this. I think I might do smaller podcast tip episodes for Patreon. So, something I'm thinking about, let me know if it helped. Let me know if it didn't help at all. 

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+This episode of Heavyweight is brought to you by the new Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch whiskey. It's whiskey that is smokey and sweet, Fire & Cane. This unexpected fusion is a must-have for the holidays. Forbes Magazine called it, a flavor bomb. Quite frankly drinking it is a little like sitting around the campfire and opening a tin of Bobby's homemade toffee. Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch, enjoy responsibly. This episode of Heavyweight is brought to you by Homecoming, a new series from Amazon Prime Video, out November 2nd. Homecoming is a television adaptation of the Gimlet podcast Homecoming. Did you know I had a minor cameo in the podcast version? And did you know that I do not have a cameo in the TV show version? Anywho, Sam Esmail, director of Mr Robot, teamed up with a critically acclaimed cast, including Julia Roberts, to transform that story into a real life moving picture. Binge television, made for people like you, podcast fans, huh? You know who I'm talking to. Watch Homecoming, November 2nd, on Amazon Prime Video. I'm just about to go to work. If this is an emergency, because this is the third time you called me today. Okay. Everything okay with the baby? Yes. Yes. A beautiful baby. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Thank you. That, you know, I take a lot of pride in that. God, he's nine months old now. Bye-bye. But you know, you- Bye-bye. Okay. I, I will respectfully let you go, because I don't wanna- You're, there's nothing respectful about you, Johnny. Because I told you six months ago I don't wanna be on your show anymore. No. Wait, well, hang on a second. And you are calling me, and I pick up the phone… Wait, wait, wait. thinking it was about something else. Wait… But it's not. you had said to me that you didn't wanna be in the introduction to the episodes, right? What if I were to tell you that this isn't an episode. It's a pre-episode. My God. What's the difference? Well, because it's not gonna be a canonical episode. Really? It's an anticipation of the second season. No. And there isn't gonna be another episode coming out for, for an entire month. So it's very pre. John, I don't wanna be on the show, period. You're not listening, as usual. The floor is yours, I'm listening. John. Yeah. <unk:hangs_up>. From Gimlet Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight. Today's pre-season episode, Milt. You have one new voice message. A voice message from my friend Gregor. Something about my podcast destroying lives? Must be a bad connection, I think, because my podcast saves lives. I phoned back to remind Gregor how last season my show repaired his friendship with noted vegan and baldheaded techno-musician Moby. In the sense that you forced me into like, probably one of the top three most awkward afternoons of my life? So it was a little, it was a little awkward in the room. But in the end- No, it wasn't a little awkward <laugh>. It was incredibly awkward. You're like a nightmare therapist who causes fights. Okay. Yes, you felt that way in the moment. I explained how making things right is often preceded by <unk:discomforture>. But the main thing was that people were relating to his journey of healing. In fact I say, The episode generated a very lively discussion on the website Reddit. Reddit. Wow, I finally made it to Reddit. Soon I'll be on 4chan. Thank you for that. When Gregor is done giving me the sass-mouthing of a lifetime, he explains that in the end the podcast did more harm than good. He tells me that the episode actually destroyed his father's oldest friendship. Destroyed, I ask. Friendship, I ask. The trouble all started, Gregor explains, when his dad, an 85 -year-old man named Milt, sent the episode to his friend, Sidney. Sidney hated the podcast so much that he sent Milt a letter formerly ending their 65 -year friendship. And that was that. According to Gregor, Sidney is a genius, and couldn't believe Milt had the audacity to disrespect his intelligence and remaining time on earth by recommending such a truly terrible podcast. And the time he spent listening to the episode, he could have done something brilliant. Sidney is a professor, the author of countless academic articles, and according to Gregor a true literary scholar. A Joyce <unk:seen> scholar, as in James Joyce. As opposed to Joyce DeWitt, who played Janet on, um, Three's Company. Um, anyway, very, very intellectual guy. Right. He does not suffer fools. So he's very much inclined to dress people down, set them in their place. That kind of thing. I had ample experience with that kind of thing. Case and point, Gregor proceeds to tell me in painful and gratuitous detail what Sidney thought of my podcast. Certainly the sound of your voice could make him angry. Among other things he thought a jejune middlebrow, and nothing but a load of chitchat. As with a lot of things that's said, I kind of agree with him, it is just chitchat. I mean, the podcast was just us talking to each other. It's not that- Well, I mean, you know, So- Socratic dialogues. I mean, all that was really, was two guys talking, right? Well, I think, yes. That's empirically true. But I mean, if you're a guy who's gonna be like, hey, Socrates talked, I talk, I'm Socrates… <laugh>, you know? Then I don't think I can get any point through to you at all <laugh>. Gregor says the letter hit Milt hard. He's lately been taking his meals alone in his office, and not speaking much to anyone. It's hard for me to imagine how my show could end a friendship. Sure, there were podcasts that could. I'm all but positive that TED Radio Hours destroyed tons, maybe even a few marriages. But not Heavyweight. My Heavyweight couldn't hurt a fly, and so I want to see proof. I insist Gregor send me a copy of this breakup letter, which he does. I'm gonna read… we're gonna go through the letter, okay? We're gonna parse through the letter, all right? Sure. Okay. Here we go. So it starts off where he says, after our exchange… Without so much as a 'dear Milt', the letter launches into a list of complaints, written in the style of an academic monograph, replete with annotation and appendicis. And then in parentheses, see poem about friendship, references to previous correspondence. So he quotes from an email sent 11 years earlier. Yeah. Okay. So here it is. Hi, Milt. And second references to age-old intellectual <unk:tirfors>. Not understanding the neurotic elements of the battle about the school superintendent. Okay, so this is a whole other thing. There are numbered sections, which contain lettered subsections. Bracketing, number C. So he goes back to subsection C, bar mitswa. I had invited you to my grandson's… And finally, there it is, like Gregor said, the stuff about Heavyweight. To quote subsection J. J, you sent me the link to a radio program Greg was on. I have listened to similar programs when I was driving. Very rarely, if ever, did I stop my reading or writing to listen to what I call, chitchat programs. Seeing that chitchat thing in black and white was especially picante. But as we read through the letter it becomes apparent that this friendship has bigger problems than my podcast. According to Sidney, while he always asks after Milt's family, Milt never asks after his. And while Sidney attends Milt's family functions, Milt doesn't attend his. And although Sidney takes an interest in Milt's work, to quote Sidney, When I dedicated a published article to you, I quoted William Carlos Williams, so much depends, to which you replied that it reminds you of the adult pads, Depends. So much for the dedications. The history… It seems Sidney isn't so much upset about having listened to an episode of my podcast, as he is about having listened to an episode of my podcast starring Milt's son, Gregor. Because yet again, Sidney was being asked to care about Milt's family in a way that was never reciprocated. Sidney's real problem, it seems, is that he's always asked to look and listen in on Milt's life, without being seen and heard himself. Although the letter reads like a legal deposition, by the end Gregor and I come to see it as something else, an outpouring of 60 years worth of hurt feelings. Their friendship began in 1954 in a rooming house in Iowa where they both attended college. Together they considered themselves a couple of outcasts, who drove to poetry readings in Milt's model T. Over late night bottles of Chivas Regal Sidney would share his theories with Milt about Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancer, and Milt would share his attempts at poetry with Sidney. Almost 70 years later Milt is now a published poet. But when he finishes a poem, he stills sends it to Sidney, whose judgment means more than anyone's. It never changed. The roles never changed. He was still the guy in his life whose opinion mattered most to him about his writing. He would say, here's the thing I did. And Sid didn't just write back like, nice, smiley face <laugh>… <laugh>. double exclamation mark. He'd write these kind of, like, um, a very deep analytical kind of read. Sidney remains a kind of big brother to Milt. This at a time when those older than him, that he can look up to, are dwindling. And now this unique friendship was ending, and the straw that broke the camel's back was my stupid podcast. I mean, well… you see, I mean, obviously, you see the irony in this whole situation, right? After waiting a good, long while, it was clear that Gregor did not see the irony in this whole situation. I mean, I have a show, its raison d'etre is to unite people. And because of my show, two men in their late 80s, who have been friends for the past 60 odd years, had a falling out. I mean, the end of Sid's letter to my dad said, go shove off. It wasn't a falling out. It was, this is the end. I'll never speak to you again. And as far as you having a radio show that brings together, I always thought you're a disputations' character. I, I think my track record speaks for itself. Your track record? You couldn't like tussle with a raccoon on the way to the licker store. You're never gonna have any success with anything <laugh>. No, no. I'm gonna, I'm gonna discourage you. Do you think that, you know, maybe I could do something to help? Okay, here we go <laugh>. Here we go. Because, like, helping old men like this is sort of what I do. Every one of your ideas is worse than the previous one, and you're building the terrible idea pyramid. Well, you wanna try, you wanna try calling your dad? We're almost at the top. Let's call him together. And now we're at the top. Like all Jewish men of a certain age, Milt probably hasn't answered a telephone in close to 50 years. Hello? As expected, Gregor's mom picks up. My grandchild, great-son, said… when he heard about this, he said, when a person is older he needs more friends, not less. That's nicely put. The relationship a person has with a friend is so intense and deep. A friendship, a buddy, wow. Yeah. Okay. Here you go. Hello, Gregor? You- Hello <unk:Father_Bear>? Oh. Hi, Mil- Hol- hol- I have Johnny on the phone here. Jonathan, how are you? Good, how are you, Milton? I'm good, thanks. Let me just shut my music off here. Hold on a second. Okay. Sure. Milt shushes down what sounds like a <unk:Narland's> dixieland jamboree marching through his den. And I ask if there's a way in which perhaps Gregor and I could help make peace between himself and his friend. Are you talking about Sidney? Yeah. I mean, he's very brilliant. He, you know, he's, he's written at least 2, 300 articles. He's a walking encyclopedia about literature. Nobody knows more than he does. But he's more trouble than he's worth. I don't think you realize how crazy he is <laugh>, and difficult to negotiate with. I tried to explain how there's nothing really that crazy about Sidney at all. Really, all he wants is more give and take in their friendship. But Milt is too dejected to hear me. I think he's broken up with me. I think he doesn't wanna have anything to do with me now, from that letter he sent. I think it's over. Forget about Sidney. All right. I'm gonna fix this, dad. Don't you worry. No, no, no. I, I don't want to fix this for you. I don't wanna fix this. All right. If you've given up, you've given up. I respect- Your mother's listening to the Dalai Lama on John Oliver. Hey. Yeah. <inaudible>. Yeah. He, he, he, he knows about it. He knows about it. <laugh>. All right. Mom's peal of laughter at John Oliver. <laugh>. Right. I'll talk to you later. <inaudible>. All right. I can't understand a word. I'll talk to you later. Okay, bye. Okay. Bye-bye. Gregor? Yes, sir. Okay. So you heard your father, that's it. But that's your mission on Heavyweight to, is to resolve conflict. My father is just feeling hurt. I've got to massage him a little bit. As far as I'm concerned, end of act one. And what better way to enjoy the end of act one, but with a message from our sponsors? This episode of Heavyweight is brought to you by the new Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch whiskey. Gimlet Media editor Jorge Just and I have a tradition. After each long week of podcasting, we sit down in the recording studio and have a celebratory glass of whiskey. Last Friday we drank Glenfiddich Fire & Cane. Fire & Cane is described as both smokey and sweet. Like, I very well tasted marshmallow. And I think of us as that. I think of you as being kind of smokey. Oh, okay. And I'm kind of sweet. And have you ever thought about how strange that is? How close we are, given how differently we grew up? I was an outdoor kid. I was an indoor kid. I was building campfires to keep warm. I was getting by on just chunks of <unk:pea> that I ripped off the ground. That's what I would eat. I was turning the thermostat all the way to the right. And I was eating apple rugelach that my Bubby made. But we're still friends. You're the fire and I'm the cane. Cheers. Chin-chin. When you want a whiskey that's both smokey and sweet, you shouldn't have to choose. Glenfiddich Fire & Cane is a unique marriage of flavors for all the unlikely pairs out there. Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch, enjoy responsibly. This episode is brought to you by jet.com. At Jet, you can shop curated brands and city essentials all in one place. And that what makes Jet different. It offers a unique assortment of local and leading brands. When you shop on jet.com you'll find a catalog designed for you. That's because Jet tailors itself to your shopping references. And it's smart enough to know that you don't buy bananas the same way you buy boots. So you get more relevant recommendations, and that goes across departments, from home and grocery, fashion and electronics. With Jet, you also get free shipping on orders over $35, and a two-day delivery on thousands of essentials. And here's the best part, you get all of this without a membership fee. Try it for yourself. Download the app today or go to jet.com. And we don't have to spell that. It's just jet.com. So what do you think about going vegan? You need some meat. I think meat is bad for the planet. I don't think it's crazy to be like, do you need to eat meat? I'm Wendy Zukerman, and on Gimlet Media Sciences Vs. We recently looked into the science of veganism to find out, is it good for the environment? And can you really cut out all meat and diary and be healthy? Many of us have been told that we need milk for strong bones. But some scientists are calling that the dogma, the dogma of dairy. Meanwhile, others say that there are big risks to cutting out meat. You may have hallucinations. You may hear voices. Oh, my gosh. So, should you go vegan? Check out Science Vs to find out what's fact and what's fiction when it comes to veganism. That's Science Vs on Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Wendy Zukerman, back to you soon. How was I going to fix this 60 -year long friendship? Sidney's letter was an emotional plea that begged for an emotional response. But according to Gregor his dad Milt just isn't that kind of touchy-feely guy. He's not a card giver, a bar mitswa goer. Milt didn't even bother attending Gregor's graduation, saying he didn't get all the hoopla. In fact, the only time Gregor catches a glimpse of his dad's emotional side, is when he's sharing his poetry. He'd be doing public readings of his poems at various events that I'd go to. Yeah. And I'd say, in 10 of those, in four of them he'd break down crying, and someone… sometimes me, would have to step in and read his poem. And then I started to realize that he was using poetry as the conduit or as an excuse to open the faucets in his emotional core, to be emotionally expressive. Sometimes expressive to a degree that makes Gregor uncomfortable. He'll send me a poem written about my mother to me. You know, it's not exactly erotic poetry, but it's not exactly not erotic poetry. <laugh> What do you mean? Like, give me an example. You know, it's like, I wake to the yawning cavern of your body. And I'm like, okay, I have to stop here. <laugh> Milt's written about his wife, his kids and his grandkids. It made Gregor wonder, had Milt ever written a poem for Sidney? We phoned Milt back and ask. Not that I'm aware of. But you wrote 7000 poems. You never wrote a poem about Sidney? No. But the question must have planted a seed in Milt's mind. A few days later I receive a phone call from Gregor. His dad had sat down and written a poem especially for, and dedicated to, Sidney. I'm so excited, I can't even wait to finish my cream cheese and jelly sandwich before conferencing us all back together. Hi, Milt. How are you? How are you? Good, good. How are you doing? Well, I'm fine. Thank you. So I hear that you wrote, um, a poem, Gregor was saying, about Sid? Yes. Normally Milt mails his poems to Sidney to get his feedback, in recent years emails them. But I ask if with this personal one he'd be up for phoning Sidney, and reading it to him directly. In this way Milt would be making himself vulnerable with a grand gesture. I was imagining something along the lines of that scene in Say Anything, where the shiftless, half-weight kick boxer holds a boombox over his head. But instead of a boombox it'd be a telephone. And instead of a young couple it'd be two very old men. After a long pause Milt says… I can do that. But then, after an even longer pause, he begins to equivocate. He's extremely critical. And, you know, he, he also wrote, uh, an introduction to one of my books that was pretty, pretty insulting. About, I, I write, I write poetry like I'm going to a garage sale, or something. Why would you publish in your own book of poetry an introduction in which someone is insulting your works <laugh>? I don't know. Once again Milt was presenting his work at the feet of the master. But this time it wasn't just for critique, it was to make amends, and win back his oldest friend. And that was scarier. Uh, why don't I, why don't I connect you guys? Yeah. Gregor, so we're not gonna speak, right? I think we stay out of it. I don't see… Yeah. how we could possibly do any good. Yeah. Well, because normally, you know I like to inter, inter, <unk:interlocute>, right? Yeah. You're an interlocutor. Call him up, let's… Okay. see if he's home, and if this whole shit is gonna run right into this iceberg, or what's gonna happen. I'm gonna get him on the phone. Okay. Okay. Here we go. I'm calling him up. Um- Hello? Hello? Hello. Hello? Hello. Yes. Who is this? This is Milton Ehrlich, how are you? Who is it? Milton Ehrlich. Milton Ehrlich, how are you? Okay. I'm glad to hear from you. Okay. Hold on. Thank you. Hold on. Okay. Thank you. Ho, careful. All right. Thanks. Hi, Milt, what a surprise. How, how are you? I'm okay. Okay. Go ahead. Yeah. I'm okay. The, the reason I'm calling is, uh, Greg, Greg's friend Jonathan Goldstein, he wants to, he wants me to read a poem I wrote to you. He's on the phone right now, I believe. Jonathan, are you there? Oh, yeah. Yes, hi. Hi, hi there. So it's a group, a group call. That's interesting. Yeah. Not only had Milt immediately forgotten our game plan, but he'd also yanked down the curtain, to reveal lurking in the wings Sidney's least favorite podcast host. But fortunately, before Sidney could start critiquing my work, Milt begins. Comment or interrupt any time you want. The poem is called, the Iconic Class. And I wrote it in, in… I wrote it in homage, homage to Sidney F. Okay. Words roll out of their mouths like tropical birds. Chivas Regal on the rocks, subtle thinkers and subtle feelers struggle like sweating sumo wrestlers… <laugh>. with a question, how do I live the right life? In impassioned all-night arguments, delight in the Tropics of Henry Miller, and the naked honesty of Molly Bloom's Soliloquy. Utopianists, rebel outsiders longing for communion and community… <unk:The_end>. hoping to change the mind-numbing deadness of schools, stepping out of mass of men, leading lives of quiet desperation. Where men in suits sit with glazed eyes, transfixed by screens, <unk:howl> for coffee or coke, waiting for long Sunday afternoons. A transformation where killing stops, and the dazzling spectrum of consciousness allows one to become more fully human. As slender <unk:thingies> of the sun seep into their chamber, they solemnly tread home, knowing the struggle to awaken a more <unk:abund> culture has only begun. That's, that's the poem <laugh>. I'm, uh, not quite sure… I mean, it's the kind of poem that has so many references to my life… Yeah. uh, until now, uh, you thought nobody noticed. Uh, if it weren't so long, I'd have it on my tombstone, you know? Uh, <laugh>… <laugh>. It's a- Do you, do you feel, uh, touched hearing, hearing this poem? Oh, of course I do. Uh… Yeah. of course, I feel touched by it. I mean, uh, it's not simply a, a poem that was delivered. The vehicle was Milt Ehrlich. I mean, he brought it to me. And, uh, that carries a thousand years of conversations, and walks and talks, and things like that. So hearing Milt's voice delivering this poem, the weight is a serious weight. It's a major weight. And, um, and that's terribly important to me. Well, thank you for helping to make me a better poet. Yeah. You know, we're, we're… we, we, we're, we're at a, uh, a new phase. A new phase. Okay? Okay. There was no reference to the letter, nor to their not speaking. In other words, not a lot of chitchat. But by the end of the call, things felt back to normal. So much so, that just as we're all about to get off the phone, Sidney says, as he always does… Say hello to the family, Milt. Say hello. To which Milt says, as he always does… Say hello to who? Nothing much of anything. But today, Sidney doesn't seem too bothered by it. <laugh> Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye. Okay. Thanks, Sid. Bye-bye. Okay. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye-bye. I asked Milt how he feels the whole thing went. And he says, better than he expected. But sometimes a person just has to take one for the team. For the greater good of the friendship. You know, one of the essential things about friendship… uh, I wrote several, several poems about it. I can send them to you. Sure. Uh, there's always, always one partner in a friendship that values it more, and wants it to work more. And it's like in ours. There's always one part of the marriage that, that loves the other person more. And because they love the other person more, they can tolerate being loved less. It's the same thing in friendship. Although I don't ask him outright, I get the feeling Milt is saying that in his friendship with Sidney he's that guy, the one who's loving more and trying harder. But I'm also sure that Sidney, at that very moment across town, is thinking some version of the same thought. And maybe in all friendships, if you ask, who's getting the raw end of the deal, the answer is inevitably, I am. But if the friendship has a fighting chance of lasting more than 60 years, that answer will also contain some version of, but it's worth it. Before we get off the phone, Milt has a question for me. The last thing he said, give my regards to who, did you hear? Oh, he said, he said to give regards to your family. Oh, family. I couldn't hear what it was. Yeah. You might, you might wanna email him to just say… uh, to give regards to his family. Or, he might be sensitive. What would this friendship do without me? Okay, good. Thank you, Jonathan. Okay. Take it easy. Bye-bye. Hey, Gregor. Are you still there? Yeah. I, I'll be the first to admit it, I didn't think it would go as well as that went. I have to say, do, do you see any, any parallels, uh, in, in, uh, in your dad and Sid's relationship, and our relationship? I mean, I think Sid's a genius and I'm a genius. I'll take that. Let me ask you a question. Did you know that, uh, I recently had a baby? I think you mentioned that. Do you know his name? What, are you deposing me? You've never listened to an episode of Heavyweight. I don't like those earbuds in my ears. They hurt my ears. Do you think we're gonna end up being friends like for the next like 60 years? You'd be a 115. Can you imagine you'd be a 115? You're already like you're 115. <music> Now that the furniture is returning to its Goodwill home, now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damage deposit, take this moment to decide, if we meant it, if we tried. Sun in an empty room. Or felt around for far too much, things that accidentally touch. Sun in an empty room. Heavyweight is hosted and produced by me, Jonathan Goldstein, along with Kalila Holt. The senior producer is Kaitlyn Roberts. Editing by Alex Blumberg and Jorge Just. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Stevie Lane, Wendy Dorr, Kate Parkinson-Morgan, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Matthew Boll with assistance from Kate Bilinski. Music by Christine Fellows and John K Samson. Additional music credits for this episode can be found on our website, gimletmedia.com/heavyweight. Our theme song is by the Weakerthans, courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Eli Shaw. Follow us on Twitter @heavyweight, or email us at heavyweight@gimletmedia.com. Our season begins on October 26th. You better get yourself a new pair of headphones, my friend. Because there's a lot of great stuff coming your way in season 2. Are you threatening me? I'm, you know, I'm working on some stories and some of them take place in Canada. You're working on stories that take place in Canada? I'm gonna go change my underpants. I don't like when you say that. And you know my friend Jackie? She, she's coming back, I think. She's just- How do I know your friend Jackie? You've met her several times. The name doesn't ring a bell. Thank for our sponsor jet.com. At Jet, you can shop curated brands and city essentials all in one place. And the best part? Free shipping on orders over $35, and no membership fee required. Try it now. Just download the app, or go to jet.com. Thanks to our sponsor, the new Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch whiskey. When you want a whiskey that's both smokey and sweet, you shouldn't have to choose. Fire & Cane is as smokey as Gimlet Media editor Jorge Just, and as sweet as me. Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch, enjoy responsibly. 

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+This episode of Heavyweight is brought to you by Homecoming, a new series from Amazon Prime Video out November 2nd. Homecoming is a television adaptation of the Gimlet podcast, Homecoming. Did you know I had a minor cameo in the podcast version? And did you know that I do not have a cameo in the TV show version? Anyhoo, Sam Esmail, director of Mr. Robot teamed up with a critically-acclaimed cast including Julia Roberts to transform that story into a real life moving picture. Binge television made for people like you, podcast fans, eh? You know who I'm talkin' to. Watch Homecoming, November 2nd on Amazon Prime Video. This episode of Heavyweight is brought to you by the new Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch whisky. It's whisky that is smokey and sweet. Fire and cane. This unexpected fusion is a must-have for the holidays. Forbes magazine called it, a flavor bomb. Quite frankly, drinking it is a little like sitting around a campfire and opening a tin of Bubby's homemade toffee. Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch. Enjoy responsibly. <unk:ringing>. Hey, how are you? I notice that we're not Facebook friends. Oh we're not? No. I think… didn't you try to Facebook friend me? I don't think I responded. Do you know how embarrassing that is? You won't even friend me. Jonathan, we're better than Facebook friends, we're real life friends. No, that's worse than Facebook friends because no one knows we're friends. Let's go to the internet right now and let's friend each other at the exact same time- No we're not gonna friend each other because I have to go to work right now. Can't you take the computer with you? I'm stepping out the door now and I have to get on my bicycle because I'm- Can't you balance the laptop on the handle bars? And then you could… we could Facebook chat. <laugh>. Don't you think that's a good idea? If like we both friend each other at the same time? No. Why not? One, two, three and then we press the button. Ready? <unk:click>. Well… hurtful. From Gimlet Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode, Rose. In 1962, the Beatles had their first number one hit, Love Me Do. A lesser known fact is just months earlier, the band kicked out their original drummer, Pete Best. The Beatles had their manager do the job. The lads just don't want you in the band anymore, he said. No further explanation was given. But over the years, different theories emerged. Pete Best didn't have the right hair, Pete Best wasn't funny or artsy enough. He didn't dress right. For a long time afterwards, Pete Best wondered why his old friends had kicked him out. But, he got married, started a family, ob-la-di, ob-la-da, life went on. That's what happens. People get kicked out of bands, parties, jobs, and eventually they stop searching for the reason why. Most people do anyway. So, I moved in to my college dorm when I was 17. I was an incoming freshman in the fall of 2001. This is Rose, and the school she was entering was the University of North Florida. And it's like a beachy community. I was like a cool surfer chick. I drove like an old Volvo that was covered in like band stickers. Rose was a rebel. And if all the teen movies I'd watched during the mid- 80's taught me anything about campus life, it was that rebels don't mix with popular kids. And at the University of North Florida, nobody was more popular than the sorority girls. You would like walk through school and they're set up there and they're along the sidewalks and they're like, Are you interested in joining a sorority? And I would just like blow by and my skateboard and be like, No. I didn't think that I'd ever be affiliated with it. With, with, uh, sorority life? Yeah, with Greek life. With the sororities and the fraternities and like the cool kids and their popped collars. Like I didn't think that was for me. <music>. So, the summer after my freshman year, I meet this dude and I start dating him and he's in a fraternity. And I'm making friends with all these people in the Greek community and I'm like, Oh, they're normal, they're not pretentious, they're not weird. I started to dress like them, I started to act like them and I wanted to be accepted. And the fall of my junior year, I rushed. And I got a bid from Alpha Chi and I joined. <music>. Sorry, the name of the sorority was… It's called Alpha Chi Omega. Alpha Chi Omega. And we were the Theta Sigma Chapter. Stayta Sigma Chapter. Theta with a T-H. T- So it was the Theta Sigma Chapter of Alpha Chi Omega and it was at UNF… Sororities. It was a new and exciting world with such a rich history. It turns out that Condoleezza Rice, Enron whistleblower Sherron Watkins, and Dawn Wells, who played Mary Ann on Gilligan's Island, were all members of Alpha Chi and had taken secret oaths to remain sisters for life. I listen avidly as Rose explains what it means to be a part of Alpha Chi Omega Theta Sigma Chapter. We are classy ladies, we are sophisticated, we wear pearls, we know our manners, you know, like that. Did they use the word classy? You're not being classy, yeah, absolutely. And they had like all these weird acronyms, like if someone came up to you and whispered in your ear, pearl, it was like the acronym for pearl, P-E-A-R-L, please engage in acts resembling a lady. So if someone says, pearl in your ear, that would mean you would begin to… It would mean like let's say I'm doing a keg stand at a party and another sister is there, instead of being like, Young lady, get down right this instant, because that's causing a scene, now you're causing attention, instead she's supposed to tap me on the shoulder and whisper in my ear, pearl. And then I'm supposed to be like, Oh you're right, thank you for reminding me. <music>. Rose took on new hobbies. Scrap booking with her sorority sisters, building floats for the Homecoming parade and dressing head to toe in scarlet red and olive green, the Alpha Chi Omega colors. And while she'd never seen herself being cut out for all of this sorority stuff, the crazy thing was it actually made her really happy. I was gung ho. Like I'm a participator. I got really into it. And just walking around school, now all the sudden like you know everybody and everybody knows you, and now you're in on the inside jokes. Like I felt like I belonged. Like I went from being a disgruntled outsider to being like the bubbly participant. Rose and her sorority sisters did everything together. Beach trips, watching The Bachelor. One weekend, they all ran a campus charity race together, but afterwards something felt amiss. And I remember thinking like, man I feel really tired after that 5K. And I'm having a lot of trouble sleeping and I keep sweating through my sheets at night. Rose also noticed that her neck was swollen. She was feeling achy and fatigued. After a few weeks she went to see a doctor. And I said, Can you take a look at my neck? Like I don't think something's right. And the nurse practitioner who was treating me that day just like looked at me in horror and was like, You have to go to radiation right now. And I was like, I have to make an appointment? and she was like, No, I'm calling the second floor and you're gonna go get a CT scan right now. So it was crazy. They called it nodular sclerosing Hodgkin lymphoma. I had huge pronounced lymph nodes all over my body. You could take one look at me and it looked like my neck and chest were just full of golf balls. Like something was wrong. But the time we started testing and staging, I mean I was a stage 3. This is like big kid cancer. This is like, Shave your head, Rose, like you've got real cancer. So I think around May I started chemo. Rose dropped out of her classes and quit her extracurriculars. Her days filled up with doctor's appointments and chemotherapy. The one bright note throughout was the support she got from her sorority sisters. They took her to concerts and Jacksonville Jaguar football games. They sold hot pink ribbons in the Quad and raised thousands of dollars for Rose's treatment. Alpha Chi took care of Rose, and Rose was dedicated to Alpha Chi. She was on the executive board in charge of recruiting new members. And even through her cancer, she kept up with her work. And new girls are coming through and they have to decide which sorority they want to join and now Alpha Chi has like one hell of a tale to tell. Now we're not just a regular sorority, we're the sorority with the cancer girl and we're saving her life. And that was something that they led with? That was actually something that was made explicit? Oh, I got up there with my bald head and gave a speech and cried every time about how my sisters were saving my life. Rose was lucky. By the spring of her senior year, her cancer went into remission. For the first time in more than a year, she felt like a normal college kid. I just had a lot of fun that semester. My hair's starting to grow back, I'm starting to get my energy back, I'm starting to feel like a normal person and like now I'm not just going to a party to like, you know, make sure I'm getting out of the house, like now I want to party. Like now I want to have fun. So I did. I felt like I deserved it. Then one night, after being cancer free for five months, Rose went to Alpha Chi's weekly meeting which met in an old auditorium on campus. And I come to the meeting and they're like, Hey Rose, can you stay after? We need to talk to you. So they clear everybody out and now it's just like five or six women and me. And they're like, Alright Rose, like this is gonna be tough, we're gonna have to ask you to resign. And I was like, Excuse me? Yeah, we're gonna have to ask you to resign. And I thought they meant from my position, my officer position. I'm like, You're asking me to step down as VP Recruitment? Like the new girls love me, I'm great with the new girls, why? I… I've got this marketing on lock. And they're like, Oh, no, no, no, we want you to resign from the organization. We want you to resign from the organization, we want you to resign from Alpha Chi. And I lost it. It's like you know that feeling when someone's breaking up with you and like you get that cold feeling in your chest and you know that someone's about to look at you and say like, This isn't working? Yeah. It was like that times one hundred. Like now a hundred of my friends were all breaking up with me in a very methodical way and I didn't see it coming. <music>. And I just kept saying, Why? What do you mean you want me out? And this is when they just… all of a sudden it was like these women I had known for years, they were strangers. And there was no compassion, there was no kindness, it was, You know what you did, Rose. You know what you did. <music>. And I was like, No. No, you have to tell me. What did I do? Did something bad happen? Rose, we're not getting into it, you know what you did. And I'm just like, No. No, I don't know what I did. And at this point I am so distraught, I think I'm like hyperventilating and crying… I think I'm ugly crying, I think like snot is just bubbling out of my nose, and I don't have the wherewithal to demand answers. And I'm like, So that's it? We're done here? You want me out? And they're like, Yeah, as of tonight you are no longer affiliated with Alpha Chi Omega. <music>. She was getting straight A's, she was on the student council. She'd never done anything illegal, but Rose was out and no one would tell her why. No one has ever told me. And did you ever pursue it further? God, yes. For years. Like, Hey guys it's been five years since we graduated college, I know this is kinda weird but I still think about it, does anyone want to tell me? I've like done the thing on Facebook where I've like made the big Facebook post where I'm like, Alright, does everyone remember when Rose got kicked out of Alpha Chi, like if you or anyone you know has any information… Like I'm still dying to know and then like dozens of my friends are like, Oh, I'm following this post, what was it, what was it? And still to this day, no answers. And like you're racking your brain, like, Did I get blackout drunk and sleep with someone's boyfriend? Did you ever see any other of the sisters get kicked out? No. No. And that's the thing, it's like, okay, let's not mince words here, like, was Rose a party girl? Yes. Were there girls who were way worse than me? Absolutely. And did they get kicked out? Never. Does Rose refer to herself in the third person? Yes. Does she present a puzzling riddle? Absolutely. And would Jonathan quit before solving it? Never. <music>. Rose's college memories have all been tainted by that one day 12 years ago, but her ex-sorority sisters are now adult women in their 30's. They had to be past the college drama. <unk:phone_ringing>. So after Rose and I part, I begin reaching out to them for their help. Hey Amanda, this is Jonathan Goldstein. Hey Trish, I've been trying to get in touch… Hey Anita, I was trying to reach you… Hi there… Uh Zoe, this is Jonathan Goldstein calling… hopefully we'll speak soon, Claire. I phoned them in their cars. Hi, hang on one second, our daughter's walking into ballet class, give me one second. Oh sure, no, of course. I phoned them in their homes. Uh, do you have a minute to speak? I do, I have a toddler, just so you know. Oh yeah, no that's fine. High on sugar because she just swallowed a bag of jellybeans. <laugh>. But yes… No I cannot pick you up right now, I'm not picking you up, no. I'm sorry <inaudible>. So… um… <music>. But not one of Rose's ex-sorority sisters can tell me why she'd been kicked out. Some say they don't remember, it was so long ago. Others say they never knew why. There were nearly 100 women in Alpha Chi but only a handful had been in the room when Rose was kicked out. One of these women was named Amber. When I phone her, she's busy but tells me to call back. So a few days later, I do. Hey Amber, this is Jonathan Goldstein, uh, I think we spoke briefly <unk:beeping> some time ago. Hello? I call back and Amber apologizes for our being disconnected, but when I ask her why Rose was kicked out, again the line goes dead. <unk:beeping>. This is odd. Odder still is a conversation with an Alpha Chi sister a year younger than Rose. She says she inherited all the disciplinary documents from Rose's year but that one file was missing. The one detailing why Rose had been kicked out. Things were beginning to feel collude-y. <music>. <unk:ringing>. Hello? Oh hey Rose. Hi. <music>. I call Rose to update her but it seems she's already gotten wind of my doings. So, I think you must've been reaching out to a bunch of different members of Alpha Chi? Word had started getting around on Facebook about some guy snooping around on Rose's behalf. Quickly, a consensus was reached. Shut this guy out. Just the way that some of the girls were replying and the thread, it just felt like 12 years hadn't even passed and- How do you mean? It was just like immediately this whole group dynamic took place and all the sudden instead of people acting like mature adults who are in their 30's, it was this whole like mob mentality of, This is sketchy, we shouldn't respond, and then everyone just started to fall in line, like, Yeah, it was sketchy, Yeah, I'm not going to call him. Yeah, okay we're gonna have to go over their heads. How? <unk:ringing>. Alpha Chi Omega Headquarters, this is Susan. The Alpha Chi Omega National Headquarters is a large brick building at the end of a long tree-lined cul-de-sac in Indianapolis, Indiana. It oversees all Alpha Chi Omega sororities across the country. Any time a sorority kicks someone out, it has to file a report with headquarters. I ask Susan, the receptionist, if there might be documents that explain Rose's termination. Okay, yes, I'm sure there are. Okay, great, and in your experience, is this something that comes up sometimes where people want to know why they might have been kicked out of a sorority? Or is this uncommon? Well, I would think most people would know why. Yeah, what happened in her case… this is um, a woman by the name of Rose Shapiro, and- How do you spell her last name? Shapiro, I think it must be spelled S-H-A-P- Okay, what a minute. S-H-K? No, S-H-A, P as in Peter, I-R-O. Are you- Okay, yes, I did find her in here. Oh, okay. Does it, does it say anything with… alongside her name? I'm just looking at a status. So, you're… so then there is some information alongside her name. I'm not gonna… because I mean I'm, I can't say anything about this member, I wouldn't know her at all. <laugh>. mm-hmm <affirmative>. You know, and you're an outsider, you're not the member. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, what… if, if Rose Shapiro were to call you herself, would she be able to find out the information? I would think so, sure. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Well, we'll just have to see. <music>. After the break, a couple of outsiders try to get some inside information. <music>. Alright, here we go down to the subway platform. This station's just a few blocks away from where Delores was living. Here, I'll swipe you in. Join urban investigative reporter, Ros Turnbach as she dives deeper into the world of Gimlet's, The Horror of Dolores Roach. Do you see that man? Depending on how long he's been here, maybe he's seen people go down into the subway tunnels. Navigate through New York City subway tunnels in a brand new interactive adventure from Gimlet Media. Should we talk to him or should we go to the tunnel? You control where the story goes. Choose your path, avoid death, and see if you've got what it takes to find magic hands Delores herself in, Finding Delores, an interactive skill for Amazon Alexis. To start playing, just say, Alexa, open, 'Finding Delores' on any Amazon Alexa device. And maybe, just maybe, get a chance to speak to Delores herself. Hurry! Swing your <inaudible> before the train gets- Good luck. This episode of Heavyweight is brought to you by the new Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch whisky. Gimlet media editor, Jorge Just and I have a tradition. After each long week of podcasting, we sit down in a recording studio and have a celebratory glass of whisky. Last Friday we drank Glenfiddich Fire & Cane. Fire and cane is described as both smokey and sweet. Like a very well-toasted marshmallow. And I think of us as that. I think of you as being kind of smokey. Oh, okay. And I'm kind of sweet. And have you ever thought about how strange that is? How close we are given how differently we grew up? I was an outdoor kid. I was an indoor kid. I was building campfires to keep warm. I was getting by on just chunks of peat that I ripped off the ground, that's what I would eat. I was turning the thermostat all the way to the right, and I was eating apple rugelach that my Bubby made. But we're still friends. You're the fire and I'm the cane. Cheers. Chin chin <unk:clink>. When you want a whisky that's both smokey and sweet, you shouldn't have to choose. Glenfiddich Fire & Cane is a unique marriage of flavors. For all the unlikely pairs out there. Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch. Enjoy responsibly. This episode is brought to you by jet.com. At Jet, you can shop curated brands and city essentials all in one place. And that's what makes Jet different. It offers a unique assortment of local and leading brands. When you shop on jet.com, you'll find a catalog designed for you. That's because Jet tailors itself to your shopping preferences and it's smart enough to know that you don't buy bananas the same way you buy boots, so you get more relevant recommendations. And that goes across departments. From home and grocery to fashion and electronics. With Jet you also get free shipping on order over $35 and two-day delivery on thousands of essentials. And here's the best part… you get all this without a membership fee. Try it for yourself. Download the app today or go to jet.com. We don't have to spell that, it's just jet.com. <unk:ringing>. Hey. Rose? Yes, hi. Hi, um… How's it goin'? Good. You ready to get some answers? I tell Rose about my call with Susan the receptionist and we hatch a plan for contacting headquarters. I think I'll call it and connect you and I'll just be quiet. Alright, let's call. I'm ready… I'm ready for this. Okay, I'm going to call right now. Alpha Chi Omega Headquarters, this is Susan. Hi Susan, my name is Rose, and um… Lying on my stomach on the floor of the darkened studio, I finally feel like a real life popular girl. As I play with the phone cord and silently nibble from a pan of brownies, Rose explains what happened. I was ejected from Alpha Chi. I was a member of Alpha Chi Omega, the Theta Sigma Chapter- Okay, and what's your name? Rose Shapiro. Okay, alright. I'm gonna give you to Mendy Tarwater. Okay, before you transfer, I did have just one more question for you. Is there anyway that you can just tell from a general perspective if I'm considered as a member in good standing or as a former member? Is there even, is there any- No, I think you're… I think it says that you're not in good standing. I wish I could help you but I don't know that. Let me see here… Mendy is out this afternoon but she's working tomorrow. Why don't we leave a message with Mendy? Um, sure. Yeah, I think you should do that. <music>. Rose leaves a message with this Mendy Tarwater. When she doesn't hear back after a week, we call again. Over the next month, we keep calling with Rose leaving voicemails and me, scraping week's old brownie crust from the pan while listening in. For emotional support. Okay, you're on Rose. <unk:ringing>. At the tone, please record your message. <unk:beep>. Hi Mendy, my name is Rose Shapiro… Susan the receptionist passes her off to other people at headquarters. Someone named Gina. Let's try Gina, hold on. Then someone named Eliza. Eliza Payne… Is not available to take your call. Please leave a message after the tone. <unk:beep>. Hi Eliza, this is Rose Shapiro trying you again, um… One morning, we phone only to discovered Susan the receptionist has been disappeared. Possibly for saying too much. Alpha Chi Omega Headquarters, this is Cynthia. Or Susan had the day off. Hi Cynthia, my name is Rose Shapiro and I'm a former member of Alpha Chi Omega… And Cynthia, she sent Rose right back to Mendy Tarwater. <unk:beep>. Hi Mendy, this is Rose Shapiro, I'm the member who… In the end, after months of phone calls, Rose finally hears back from Alpha Chi Omega Headquarters. They pass along a single document, a letter dated April 21st, 2005. The letter is brief, plainly stating that Rose Shapiro resigned from Alpha Chi Omega of her own accord. They have no other information to share. We know now definitely, the only way we're going to get anywhere with this is actually by finding a sorority girl who was there and willing to talk. Uh. Rose's confidence in me was waning. While she used to drop everything for one of my updates, now she was sounding bored and distracted. What are you doing right now? I'm cutting potatoes. <unk:chop>. Yeah, I'm cutting potatoes, I'm about to make some mashed potatoes. Yeah, but the cut… the chopping might not be so great, um… recorded. <unk:chop>. Why? My calls were becoming a nuisance. <music>. Rose, what are you cleaning out your fridge? No, I'm done. I was starting to feel done too. I had nothing but a couple weeks later, I get a call from one of Rose's ex-sorority sisters. A woman named Tricia. Initially, Tricia hadn't been willing to talk, but over the months she thought about it and had a change of heart. I call Rose to share with her our good fortune. As soon as you finish scrubbing all your cookie pans- I'm not scrubbing any pans today, I'm not chopping any potatoes… Alright, so… <unk:clanging>. Tricia wasn't just any old sorority sister. She was one of the six girls in the room who kicked Rose out of Alpha Chi. And not only that, Tricia and Rose joined Alpha Chi around the same time and people saw them as partners in crime. Goofing at parties, singing show tunes only they knew. She was someone Rose had legitimately liked and trusted. I explained to Rose that since Tricia was the only person willing to speak to us, she might be our last chance to get an answer. So during the conversation, we'd need to tread lightly. And I sensed treading lightly might not be Rose's strongest suit. <unk:clanging>. <music>. The situation required coaxing. Possibly even some cajoling and caution. Plenty of caution. We would need the perfect moment for Rose to spring the question that's been gnawing at her for years, Why did you kick me out? So I decide that a code word is in order. A word I can use to signal to Rose that the time is right. I have plenty of experience with code words. Dinner party going too late and I want people out of my home? Medicine balls I'll say to the missus and she'll produce a CD of my old spoken word band. Mattress shopping and need to communicate my bottom line while avoiding the prying ears of predatory mattress salesmen? Medicine balls, I'll say. So every situation requires its own special code word. And the hours I'd spent crafting this one had been well worth it. Okay, what's the code word gonna be? So okay, so I was thinking maybe, Medicine balls? No, that's so awkward to insert into the conversation. Yeah. I scramble together my list of Plan B code words. Toilet bowl, toilet plunger, turkey toilet, eau de toilet. It's very Canadian. How about if I were to say it without a do or a don't? Is that something people say… For the better part of an hour, Rose and I bat around ideas. Yes, we have no tomatoes. Boy, are my dogs barking. Some people call me Maurice. Finally, Rose is satisfied. How 'bout I say, And so it goes? That's what I'll say. So it goes. And so it goes. Okay, and so it goes. And so it goes. Okay, I'm writing that down, so that's gonna be our code word, okay? Okay. So when I say, And so it goes, you're gonna say, You know, Tricia, like, what just… what happened? We had a plan, we had a code word. It was time. <music>. For another word from our sponsors. <music>. This episode of Heavyweight is brought to you by NatureMade. NatureMade makes daily energy gummies and vitamin B12 supplements which provide long-term support for daily energy metabolism. Jonathan. Yes, Jorge Just, editor at Gimlet Media. I have a confession to make. mm-hmm <affirmative>. You know that health buddies program we've been doing? Yeah, the one that CEO and Gimlet founder Alex Blumberg makes us do to keep tabs on each other's healthy choices. Yeah, we're supposed to write down what we eat, when we eat it, when we nap, when we go to the loo. Yeah, I've been really enjoying our post-run smoothies. Mm, about those… They're filled with kale and vitamin B12 supplements and brewer's yeast. They taste kinda disgusting but I'm glad we're doing it together. Yeah, it's just… mine might not be quite so healthy. Uh, I don't follow. Well, I stopped using kale and I started using fried lasagna and a little bit of rum. Jorge, you've betrayed me. Consider yourself a former health buddy. No! NatureMade created daily energy gummies and vitamin B12 supplements to help your body produce energy to help you get the most out of your day. And they don't taste terrible. You can find NatureMade vitamins and supplements in most major retailers or online. To learn more, go to naturemade.com. That's naturemade.com. Hello? Hey Tricia. Hey. So I have… I have Rose on the… on the line, I think you guys can hear each other. Rose? Hi. Hi. <laugh>. It's been years since they've spoken so Rose and Tricia catch up, but mostly they reminisce. About homecoming, the big talent show, how they were both awarded best new sorority member. And they were like, We've never done this before, but here you go. Oh my God, I totally forgot about that, we did tie for best new member. Yeah. The conversation eventually turns to Rose's cancer going into remission, and that's when their memories diverge. According to Tricia, after Rose was diagnosed as cancer free, she became a different person and started to veer onto what Tricia calls, a bad path. I think you got angry, and not at certain people but just at like the situation, at life, you know? Um, I… I don't necessarily remember an anger reaction. It's not like you were pushing people down or punching them in the face. To me I think that what I perceived was like partying… partying with fraternities, like drinking a lot, like yolo lifestyle but also with like two big middle fingers up, it's just like, Yo, no one's gonna tell me what to do or how to live my life. Uh, I… I just have a perception of myself that's like, Woo, I beat cancer, like all bets are off man, now I get to do what I want. Like I did my time, like now I'm like… like if I wanna be drunk on a Tuesday, I deserve to be drunk on a Tuesday because, Hey, I just beat cancer. Like- Like I think you were just… you were separating… The conversation was taking a turn from happy reminiscence to battling perceptions of the past. Before things could escalate any further, something needed to be said. I think that… I think that, um… And so… and so it goes. I think that just, um… Rose got the memo and was back on point. I think for me, Trish, and I don't know if you can understand this part of it, getting kicked out, like I had no idea it was coming. Yeah. I'm sorry and I sincerely wish that I could give you like a list of like, This is what it was, this is what it was, this is what it was. I honestly like can't… I can't became a common refrain. Rose would ask why she'd been kicked out and Tricia would say she wants to tell Rose, but she just can't. Can't talk about it, can't get into it. Like I wish I could give you specific instances of like, At this party, you said this. Like, does that make sense? Like I don't know… It wasn't making sense to me. And I worried that it wasn't making sense to Rose either so I tried to clarify. Literally, like I'm not sure whether it's a matter of like you do know but you feel an obligation to kind of hold the secrets of the sorority all these years later, do you know what I mean, or… Yeah. No, I, I… I… and maybe like, I would say no. Like was there like some kind of oath or something like that? Or was it because you don't remember? Well, any CR meeting was like, You're under oath, everything that happens in here stays in here, and so there was, there was a confidentiality… a big confidentiality piece to those meetings. I get the feeling that Tricia and the rest of her sisters still feel some obligation to protect the secrets and reputation of an organization they joined in their 20's. This is I think the hardest thing is to think of the health of the Chapter as a whole and how maintaining the health of the whole thing sometimes hurts like one or two people. By the end of the call, Rose had become uncharacteristically quiet. So after we all say our goodbyes, I check back in with her about how she felt the call went. I think it sounds like she has some memories but she's not sure where she picked them up or who she'd be betraying if she talked about them. She's always gonna believe, and everyone else in that room, is always gonna believe that there was something about my behavior that was unbecoming to the image of the sorority. And, I mean, she almost called me a cancer. She almost said like for the health of the organization, I had to be removed. <music>. I don't think Tricia's a bad person, I really enjoyed reconnecting with her, I think she's a cool girl but ultimately what I got from her is she doesn't think kicking me out was a mistake. For the next few weeks, I try to find someone, anyone, who might know why Rose was kicked out. I phone people in the alumni office, in student relations, people who weren't even in Rose's sorority just on the long shot they might've heard something. And then one day, I get a call back from Rick. Rick was Rose's college boyfriend. They dated all through her illness and when we eventually spoke, there was something he told me that seemed too strange to be a coincidence. <unk:ringing>. Hey. Hi, how are you? Ah, shit. Uh… I have to drive through the bank drive-thru right now real quick. Um… Always a lot going on. After Rose is done with her personal banking, I tell her the news. I… I, uh… I phoned up, uh, Rick? Okay. And one of the things though that he shared with me, and I wonder, and I feel like you must know this, uh, though we've not ever talked about it, is the fact that he was also kicked out of his fraternity. Holy shit. <music>. Wait, what? Yeah, like at the time he was also kicked out of his fraternity. Of KA? KA kicked out Rick <inaudible>. Yeah. Rick was kicked out of his fraternity around the same time Rose was kicked out of Alpha Chi. Just like Rose, Rick had been the only person kicked out in years. And he never got an answer as to why. But unlike Rose, Rick has a theory about it. One that explains why both of them got kicked out. I suggest to Rose that maybe it'd be a good idea for her and Rick to talk. Yeah, we should make that happen. <unk:ringing>. Hey Jonathan, how are ya? Good. I've got Rose here on the other line. Can you guys hear each other? Hi. I can hear Rick. Hey, how are ya? Rick's now a contractor. When I reach him, he's sitting in his idling truck at a construction site. Not long after their break up, Rose graduated and moved out of Florida. The two haven't spoken in years, and this is the first time they've talked about getting kicked out. Right away, they start trading stories. Mine was just a phone call and it was a phone call from one of our brothers that was a founding father, Chas, and just basically said, Hey, you're uh… you're done here. That is so insane. You were like the responsible one. That's so insane, oh my God, I don't know. Before they get to Rick's theory, they talk about old times, eventually winding their way back to the days when they were a couple. When Rose was diagnosed with cancer, Rick actually moved her into his apartment. He drove her to doctor's appointments, cooker her meals. After the pink ribbons had been sold and the fundraising had ended, Rick was the one waiting at home to look after her at her most sick and vulnerable. Do you remember being… were you scared at any point, Rick? Terrified. Like did you fear that Rose was gonna die? Of course. I mean you, you hear the word cancer and that, that's obviously one of the things you're gonna think about. You know we had been dating for a little bit but it wasn't a great length of time before this even happened- mm-hmm <affirmative>. So, you know, you take those feelings that you have for somebody, and I mean you're still developing a relationship. And then all of a sudden you go through, Hey, you have cancer. So yeah, I mean the entire process is terrifying. It's… it's terrifying, and I was like bald and my skin was turning gray and like there he was, like going to functions with me and being my boyfriend. And I remember one time, I'm in the middle of chemo, I am bald, I am like not doing well and we go down to Daytona to watch the NASCAR event because it's right around my birthday, it's the beginning of July, and then this freak thunderstorm comes out of nowhere and the temperature dropped like a crazy amount. It downpours, we get completely soaked and now there's like, Chemo Rose is freezing, I have no immune system, I'm just teeth chattering. And so Rick took me over to the vendor area and bought me this like head to toe windbreaker outfit of Dale Earnhardt jr oh my God <laugh>. Do you remember that? I, I… I do. You looked like you pretty much belonged with that fan base. I looked like a 12 year old boy who was sitting in the bleachers with like his older brother's cool friend. <music>. In spite of all they'd been through, pretty quickly after her cancer went into remission, Rose broke up with Rick. And although Rick was sad, he understood it. Rose needed to have some time to be able to go and experience life. And so, when that took place, her and I split, a lot of people were like, Oh, well you split because she's in remission and needs to go and kind of live her life, well that's kind of the shit way of doing it because I mean hell, didn't you take care of her? Well, yeah, but I mean she's gotta figure herself out. We both got it. But, we got it and nobody else really understood. <music>. Which brings us to Rick's theory. Rick says that after he and Rose broke up, people took sides. Rick friends were mad at Rose, and Rose's friends were mad at Rick, and each side started rumors about the other. And in that fog of rumors, both of their good names were ruined. It was like the break up version of the Gift of the Magi. And as they talk, something in Rick's theory seems to click for Rose. Absolutely. That theory has never crossed my mind. Like I'm sure someone who felt close to Rick and thought that maybe I had done him wrong or something could've gotten blown out of proportion by people who felt like defensive or protective on either side of that equation. Absolutely. I mean, I remember, you know, people coming up to me that were, I mean not even friends of mine, going, Oh hey, I heard you and Rose split up and I heard she was cheatin' on you for two years, or was cheatin' on you for you know, the two months before y'all split with another guy from Pi Kap. You remember Tripp? Oh, uh, yeah. He was the one comes by my apartment one time, he was like, Oh man, I walked into her apartment and she was uh, having sex with, with some dude on the stairs. On the stairs? On the stairs. These rumors confirmed what a lot of Rose's sorority sisters were beginning to think about her after her cancer went into remission. That she was too wild, too much of a partier. But how do you kick out a poor innocent cancer survivor from your sorority? It's a lot easier if she's not so poor and innocent, if she betrayed the loving boyfriend who saw her through her illness. These rumors must've been just what the sorority had been waiting for. It gave them the moral high ground to get rid of her. So while Rose's sorority sisters thought her cancer recovery had changed her, Rick saw the experience as having changed her back to the person she'd been before joining Alpha Chi. When she started getting into Alpha Chi, I'm like, Huh? Uh, what? Like, uh, Really? You're gonna go that route? 'Cause that's not her. <music>. Rose, are you a Beatles fan? Yes. Rose had never heard the story of Pete Best so I explained how he was kicked out of the Beatles. I tell her all the different theories I'd heard for why he was kicked out. The hair, the style, but how lately looking at old photos of the band with Pete Best hunched in the background, it all seems a lot simpler. When you look at the old photographs of those guys, of the Beatles with Pete Best all together, like he just doesn't look like a Beatle, you know? And in the final analysis, it's sort of like, Why was he kicked out of the Beatles? just because he just kind of didn't seem like a Beatle. I, I… I get the analogy you're driving at here and I think you're right. Like ultimately, I just wasn't an Alpha Chi. I just wasn't like them. And I, I can't necessarily put into words or a definition what made them similar and made me different but I just know that I was different. Rose, have you ever considered like had you not gotten cancer that maybe they would've forced you out earlier? God, probably. <music>. I think I was doing a really good job of trying to assimilate early on and I was like on my best behavior but I think that like the real me just kept like cracking out, and then once, once… after going through the whole cancer thing, then it's like, Uh, let's not put on airs anymore. Like I am who I am. And I was trying really hard to like cram myself into that mold and it just wasn't fitting. <laugh>. Like it just wasn't working. You know, I think like, in having spoken to quite a few of your old sorority sisters, I mean none of them sound like you. No. And I mean that in a… I mean that in a nice way. No, I'm totally down with that. Like I'm a fuckin' maniac and that's who I am and I've come to fully embrace that right now. Like, I'm really cool with who I am. Well, you know, I'm, I'm… I'm cool with who you are also. Thank you. <laugh>. <music>. Years after getting kicked out of the Beatles, Pete Best said he was still hopeful that maybe one day, he'd find out why. Maybe I'll run into Paul, he said, and we can talk about it. If decades from now, Rose should run into one of her sorority sisters, I hope she won't need to talk about anything other than the weather or what she's making for supper. And then she can say her goodbyes and get back to chopping, banking, and basically being the maniac that she is. <music>. Heavyweight is hosted and produced by me, Jonathan Goldstein, along with Kalila Holt. The senior producer is Kaitlin Roberts. Editing by Jorge Just, Alex Blumberg, and Wendy Dorr. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Stevie Lane, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Kate Bilinski. Music by Christine Fellows and John K. Samson. Additional music credits for this episode can be found on our website, gimletmedia.com/heavyweight. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw. Follow us on Twitter @heavyweight or email us at heavyweight@gimletmedia.com. We'll have a new episode next week. Thanks to our sponsor, jet.com. At Jet, you can shop curated brands and city essentials all in one place. And the best part? Free shipping on orders over $35 and no membership fee required. Try it now. Just download the app or go to jet.com. Thanks to our sponsor, NatureMade. NatureMade is committed to making high quality vitamins and supplements that you can choose with confidence. Look for them in most major retailers or online at naturemade.com. That's naturemade.com. Thanks to our sponsor, the new Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch whisky. When you want a whisky that's both smokey and sweet, you shouldn't have to choose. Fire and cane is a smokey as Gimlet media editor Jorge Just, and as sweet as me. Glenfiddich Fire & Cane single malt scotch. Enjoy responsibly. From Gimlet Media's, The Nod. Historical reckoning. Kunta. Kunta kinte. Intergalactic space travel. Scan for any air disruption or vortex. And the voice of Chaka Khan. Reading Rainbow… Only one person brings them all together. But, you don't have to take my word for it. Special guest LeVar Burton joins The Nod to drop some truth. Listen to The Nod wherever you get your podcasts. 

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+You are about to witness the very exciting story of a city and its people. It is a story of a city seeking new horizons in a resolute contest with great challenges. That city is Detroit. 1,2,3, now! We're bankrupt. The children's schools suck. There's no work here and all the dudes that are responsible for this probably had steak and Bordeaux for lunch. Welcome to Crime Count, produced with Gimlet media. This season, we're heading to Detroit. This city teach you one thang for sure. You always need a hustle. If you don't, it's going to blow up in your fucking face. <inaudible> said, that's why they think I'm a fan. <inaudible>. They don't care who they step on as long as they get along while I <inaudible> in my eyes. Just like last season, you'll hear from criminals. Boom! Shot me right through the head, it came out right here. It just missed my brain. Cops. Nobody was summarily executed because that's something you couldn't justify. Unsung heroes. I don't half step nothing. When I tell you I'm going to get you, take it to the bank. And a mayor who promised to turn the city around, Quami Kilpatrick. It's time for all of us to rise up and begin our future right here, right now. So how did that lead us to jail? Well… $500 spa visits. Rock star style entourages. A stripper, who later wound up dead. Quami Kilpatrick. Quami Kilpatrick. Quami. Quami. Quami. I saw people walking around with shirts that said put Quami in jail. You would not have seen a black person with that shirt on. In a city divided by race, things aren't always black and white. All the crackers and all the racists used him to justify their own prejudices. So he used the race card as a shield. This unethical, illegal, lynch mob mentality has to stop. And we'll be hearing straight from the source. This call is from- Quami Kilpatrick. An inmate at a Federal prison. To accept, dial 5 now. Hey Quami. Hey John. How you doing? I'm okay man. I'm so glad you called, I was getting a little worried. I figured you'd pull through. Crime town season 2, coming October 1, exclusively on Spotify. Subscribe for free at Spotify.com/crimetown or on the Spotify app. 

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+This episode is brought to you by Spotify, the home of Crimetown season two: Detroit. Just like this season of Crimetown, season two is full of colorful and interesting characters, and it's still hard to tell the good guys from the bad guys. Stick around during the mid-roll break to learn how we made this season, and why Detroit is a city built on hustle. This episode is brought to you by Pick Me Up, a new podcast from Lyft and Gimlet Creative. Each episode profiles a Lyft driver on their way to something big, like writing a children's book. The Alien and the Unicorn is a story of a young girl unicorn who is trying to find out who she really is. Or trying to buy a restaurant. We've been sucked into the family. And someone needs to keep the family together. He chose us. Lyft drivers who are ready to take the next step toward achieving big dreams and goals. What if Mommy and Daddy told you there's a great possibility that you could swim with the dolphins tomorrow? Ahh! Pick Me Up is hosted by Mariah Smith, and will be out on September 25th. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is brought to you by Nature Made. Nature Made makes daily energy gummies and vitamin B12 supplements which provide long-term support for daily energy metabolism. Nature Made knows your body is your greatest asset for feeling more energetic. In fact, your body generates enough power to run a 90 -watt light bulb all day. Flip that switch and learn more about Nature Made by going to naturemade.com. That's naturemade.com. <unk:singing> Our top story today, December 6th, 2002: Buddy checks in to jail. I'm here at the front gate of the federal prison where former mayor of Providence, Rhode Island Vincent A. Cianci jr better known as- Buddy! expected to surrender himself by noon today to serve his five year, four month term. Prisoner Buddy- The show opened with Buddy standing in front of the prison, his back to the audience, just a light on him, and then the newscaster started to interview the various citizens of Providence- Yeah. The denizens of the area. His constituents. On the streets of the city, reactions to the former mayor's incarceration were, to say the least, mixed. <unk:singing> There's three different people who represent three different points of view on Buddy. One is that he was totally set up. One is that he's a total thug, he's the worst thing that ever happened to Providence. And one that, yeah, he's a thug, but he doesn't care because of the great things he's done for the city. <unk:singing> I'm Mike Tarantino. I wrote the music, and some of the words, to Buddy Cianci the Musical. And I'm Jonathan Van Gieson. I wrote the book, and the rest of the words, to Buddy Cianci the Musical. <unk:singing> Today on Crimetown, we're gonna have a little fun with a holiday special. In 2003, two Brown University alumni created a musical about Buddy Cianci. It was performed six times at the New York Fringe Festival. The Fringe Festival, the New York Fringe Festival, at that point, had just sent Urinetown to Broadway, so there was this- That's right. this whole bunch of possibility, like, you could write a musical about pee, and then you'd be on Broadway. <laugh> And we thought, You know what's better than pee? Is Buddy Cianci. <laugh> <laugh> Unfortunately, no recordings were made of those performances, so we called some of our friends who work in musical theater, and asked them to help us resurrect this forgotten musical classic. I'm Mark Smerling. And I'm Zach Stuart-Pontier. Welcome to Buddy Cianci the Musical. Welcome to Buddy Cianci the Musical. <unk:singing> So um, you know, tell us why Providence, Rhode Island. Well, we both went to school- mm-hmm <affirmative>. at Brown, because… who knows why anyone goes to college? I mean, it seemed like a good idea at the time. Mike and I met there and became friends, and uh, Providence was a- a ghost town back then. There was… I- I- I kid you not, I was walking through the downtown area on a weekend, and I saw a tumbleweed roll by. <laugh> <laugh> I mean, where the canals are now was a trickle of sump water. Like, it apparently stunk. There was, it just ran through, and there was a stench where you walked over it. That stinky sliver of water had been trickling through downtown Providence since way before Jon and Mike went to college. Even before Buddy ran for mayor. After the musical's opening number, the lights go down, and we go back in time, to a city in need of a savior. And the song was… The sweaty armpit, the sleaze and smarm pit, won't do you harm pit, eggplant and parm pit. <laugh> Back to the armpit of New England! <unk:singing> It was a great way of setting up the town as the song. And then when we looked at the map, visually it looks like it's gonna stick right there in the armpit of… It's where you would put the deodorant. <unk:singing> Do you remember first hearing about Buddy Cianci? You know, I don't. It… I guess by the time I got to college, I already knew about him, but I don't remember the first time I heard about… I remember the first time I met him. Tell me. This was, I think, my senior year. And a friend of mine was having this party. And so he invited Buddy Cianci. Who showed up! This is just a college party? Just a college party! You know, it was this gag. You're in college. You invite the mayor to your party, of course you do. <laugh> <laugh> We were there at this house party, and there- there walks in with his entourage Buddy Cianci, you know, goes around the room, Hey, how you doing, how you doing? Hey, how you doing over there? Hey, nice shirt, I like that shirt. Oh, who's that on your shirt? Good to see you. Hey, how you doing? All right, bye. I think that's what got him elected so many times, was his willingness to go to pretty much anything he was invited to. Did you guys ever shake his hand? I did, twice. Yeah. Yeah, one might call that the formative moment. Right, exactly. That was the moment where this- Stuck in my head. It was, that was the- the um, musical moment. Yeah. Yeah. I did not get to shake his hand. This song, May I Shake Your Hand, takes Buddy into politics. Remember, the first time he ran for mayor, he was an unknown, up against a well-oiled Democratic machine. <unk:singing> This is before he was the guy that everybody knew, and so he would go up to people and say, May I shake your hand? And sometimes they would, and sometimes they wouldn't. <laugh> <laugh> <unk:singing> Oh, that's right! He ran his first campaign, he was the anti-corruption candidate. Yeah. That was the- That's why I was talking about irony. Yeah. Yeah. That's, we didn't know about that back when we wrote this. <laugh> <laugh> We didn't know about irony for some reason. We've looked it up since. <unk:singing> There was the slick, smooth politician, you know, on the streets, and then there was the sort of, like, more arrogant, powerful, sort of in the back room deals, and then there was the absolute, you know, psychotic lunatic… <laugh> <laugh>… that comes out later. <laugh> <unk:singing> You know, I'm sure once he got to office he found that all the, all the stuff that he w- thought he was gonna get done… Yeah. um, wasn't gonna get done, necessarily. It was gonna do him. And uh, I think it was pretty quick after he got elected that he- he gave up on those particular values that he espoused in his campaign. We- we had a whole song about that- Yeah. and the Department of Public Works, uh, which was setting up all the… all the things that- The shenanigans. The shenanigans- Yeah. with Buckles and Blackjack. It's the actual guys' name, Buckles and Blackjack. I mean… <laugh> <laugh> They, if you put that on the application you gotta pause for a second. Y- you look at it, you say, uh, Should I hire these guys? And then you say, Yeah, I'm hiring these guys. <laugh> <laugh> You know. I remember you sent me this one, and then I was about to send it back, and I said, Yeah, it's a waltz. And you were like, No! <laugh> It's supposed to be funny! And, you know. It's a… It's a funny waltz. It's a funny waltz. Yeah. A funny waltz. As waltzes go. <unk:singing> So there they are, they're giving jobs to people who don't show up. The Department of Public Works, I think, was like the- the prime job to get, because you had access to all these materials. You'd buy them for cheap, steal them, and then charge the city twice as much for half the merchandise. Yeah. <unk:singing> We hear concrete's getting stole. I- I never heard nothing about that, mr Mayor! Just ridiculousness. <unk:singing> The fact that it worked, for so many years, the I don't know! Where- where did that seven billion tons of concrete go? I dunno. <unk:singing> He was, started to establish himself as mayor, and uh, um, we started to get into his marital troubles, which happened in the second and third terms, where you know, the rumors had it he was, he was not, um, he was not a gentleman who enjoyed a particular affinity for fidelity to his spouse. His wife's name was Sheila, but… When we were in school the legend was that he married a woman named Nancy Ann. Yeah. And so her name was Nancy Ann Cianci. That was what everyone said her name was, and… it was fun to say. <laugh> Um. In fact, there was… we- we did have a song earlier where he's wooing his wife, uh, and singing to her, Will you be my Nancy Ann Cianci? I love that. <laugh> Don't you know I'm not a fancy man? But if you want to take a chance, you can. Be my one and only, Nancy Ann, my Nancy Ann Cianci. <laugh> Yeah, that was a fun dumb song. So he woos her, and then, you know, of course becomes embroiled in the power, and having fun, and um, some reports say he was doing some drugs at that point. Um, and so he gets all hyped up, he decides that his wife is having an affair with his best friend. I don't know how well he knew the guy, actually, but… And so, uh, kidnaps the guy and takes him to his house, and there's that famous, he throws an ashtray at him, he throws a cigar at him, and uh, demands $100,000, something like that. This was one of Buddy's lowest moments. A night that he kidnapped and tortured a man in his own home, a castle-like structure on Power Street. We never wrote a song about that scene. We wanted to, but we never got that one done. I thought that was a conscious choice. Was it? To keep it, like, that was pretty- To keep it heavy? pretty dark, yeah. <laugh> Yeah. Because that's not… I feel like we'd make a different choice 15 years later, maybe. <laugh> <laugh> 'Cause I- I mean, that could be a great… He kept saying, D-E-D dead, you're dead, D-E-D dead. Oh, really? And that's the- yeah! Oh, we gotta write that song. All right, let's do it. I've got the, I've got the chorus. It goes, D-E-D dead- <laugh> <laugh> D-E-D dead. I threw an ashtray at your head, you're D-E-D dead. No, that's not good. That's not… Oh, my God. Um, and so that brought us to the end, in- in- in the show, that brought us, that particular scene and his, the subsequent, uh… Did he resign? He resigned from office. Resigned, took his knocks- Right. pled nolo contendere. Nolo contendere. But we also <crosstalk> That's a song. We considered a song called Nolo Contendere. That's a song. <laugh> I don't think we ever wrapped our minds around it, but… I can assure you, I did not. <laugh> <laugh> <laugh> <unk:singing> So we wrote a song for Nancy Ann Cianci, where she's talking about different streets and how… It's a metaphor for their lives. <unk:singing> Some people love Power, but most people just live off Hope, which is all streets in Providence. That's her swan song, leaving him, walking out the door. <unk:singing> So Act One ends, he's out of power, after his first three terms. <unk:singing> We'll be back for Act Two after intermission. This episode is brought to you by Spotify, the home of Crimetown season two. For season two, we've moved from Providence to Detroit. I brought senior producer Drew Nelles into the studio to talk about it. Hey, Zach. Thanks for coming by. I love to be in the studio with you. It's so fun. It's always fun. We don't, we don't spend enough time together. <laugh> One of my favorite things about this season, that we've carried over from last season, is that you're gonna hear from a lot of really colorful characters. So who were some of your favorites, uh, characters that you met? Um, I mean, in episode one, just talking to Mary Jarrett Jackson. That was one of the best interviews I've ever done. She was one of the first black women to be hired on the Detroit police department. Then we follow her on one of her most famous cases. Yes, yeah. Which is- No spoilers. Yeah, which has a lot of twists and turns. <laugh> Yeah. It's almost stranger than fiction, I would say. It is. To meet these characters and learn why Detroit is a city built on hustle, listen to season two of Crimetown for free on Spotify. Go to spotify.com/crimetown, or search Crimetown in the Spotify app. This episode is brought to you by Merrill Lynch. At Merrill, it all starts with you. The you who's expecting a new addition, the you who's building a new addition. As your needs evolve, Merrill provides advice and guidance that evolves with you. They help you build a personalized financial strategy that starts with what matters most to you, with the right balance of straightforward tools and access to professionals when you need them. Whether you prefer working with a dedicated advisor, self-directed investing, or a Merrill Lynch professionally managed portfolio, Merrill provides advice and guidance to help you live the life you want. Learn more at ml.com/you. Investing in securities involves risks. Investments are not FDIC insured, are not bank-guaranteed, and may lose value. Merrill Lynch and Merrill make available products and services offered by Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner and Smith Incorporated, a registered broker-dealer, registered investment advisor, member SIPC, and a wholly owned subsidiary of Bank of America Corporation. This episode is brought to you by Merrill Lynch. At Merrill, it all starts with you. The you who's expecting a new addition, the you who's building a new addition. As your needs evolve, Merrill provides advice and guidance that evolves with you. They help you build a personalized financial strategy that starts with what matters most to you, with the right balance of straightforward tools and access to professionals when you need them. Whether you prefer working with a dedicated advisor, self-directed investing, or a Merrill Lynch professionally managed portfolio, Merrill provides advice and guidance to help you live the life you want. Learn more at ml.com/you. Investing in securities involves risks. Investments are not FDIC insured, are not bank-guaranteed, and may lose value. Merrill Lynch and Merrill make available products and services offered by Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner and Smith Incorporated, a registered broker-dealer, registered investment advisor, member SIPC, and a wholly owned subsidiary of Bank of America Corporation. <unk:singing> Welcome back. We're halfway through Buddy Cianci the Musical, with its creators Jonathan Van Gieson and Mike Tarantino. We'll pick things up at the beginning of Act Two. It's 1990, and Buddy Cianci has made a surprise mayoral comeback. He's back in office, and he's starting to make improvements on the city. <unk:singing> He starts work on Waterplace Park, which, you know, was that rancid river we were talking about earlier, but now he's made it into a river with gondolas on it and water fires. All these improvements are making Providence into the- the vision, I think, that he has for it. <unk:singing> And that's when Aiken shows up. He's the antagonist to Buddy's protagonist, I think, is the… you know. He's… mm-hmm <affirmative>. Well said. Dennis Aiken, the FBI agent on a crusade to take Buddy down. We put him in a trenchcoat, and- and hat that shadowed his face. <unk:singing> It's his big announcement of the name of the operation, which I- I mean, is one of the best names ever. Another thing you just couldn't make up. I know, right? Plunderdome. Plunderdome! <unk:singing> Aiken's looking for someone to be his inside man in this organization. And so he finds Freitas. Tony Freitas, the undercover operative who wore a wire. Now, these guys are gonna think you're stupid, you're gonna let them. Nobody's going to think I'm stupid! Look, Tony. These are the kind of guys that they already think you're stupid because of your accent, so- so just let them think it. Yeah, yeah, but- They think you're stupid, they'll tell you more. They'll explain things to you. That's how we'll get to them. Okay. Let's get these cockroaches. Uh, you'll need a codename. Your company does air conditioning? We'll call you mr Freon. <unk:singing> Good morning, Joseph! Good morning, how are you? Okay, Buddy. Okay, Buddy? Who is this? Tony. <laugh> <crosstalk> We had Freitas walk into this meeting, with a briefcase on his shoulder that had a camera lens sticking out of it. So the visual was he's coming in, you know, and they're not noticing, of course, because they didn't- Yeah. <laugh>… how they can not catch on that this guy was going, like, So, been doing any illegal activity lately? <laugh> Do you have any illegal activity you'd like to mention? T- Testing, testing. Do you have any illegal… And I think it was, it was one of the funniest moments in the show, was his sneaking around with this briefcase with a camera sticking out, this camera lens sticking out of the edge of it. <unk:singing> As opening night approached in New York City, Mike and Jonathan put the finishing touches on the script and score. They painted the sets. They pieced together costumes, and they scoured the city for the one thing they just had to get right. We must've gone to a dozen different wig shops to find the perfect one. And this one we found <laugh> I think in a remaindered box, like, in a remaindered wig box. And it was just a piece of molded plastic, with amazingly, Buddy's hair on top of it. That- that sort of… <laugh>… um, it- it had… tortoise, tortoise-shaped, how would you describe that… Yeah. sweep? I mean, it had a wave- Yeah. in it. Or like a… Or no, no, it didn't. Sorry. <crosstalk> Clamshell! A h- helmet. It looks like, it's a clamshell. Hmm, like a helmet. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. Like a hair helmet. Yeah. <laugh> And it just looked, you know, it looked just real enough and just ridiculous enough to- to really sell the bad toupee. We had a big final moment, where he's standing in front of the jail in Fort Dix, and there's a spotlight on him, and he sings his big final song. <unk:singing> You really did get the feeling, even though you don't want to believe it, right? But you did get the feeling that he loved Providence and he wanted it to be great. Yeah. He wanted it to be one of the great cities of the world. There's something lovable about that pride of place, you know, that love of the city. <unk:singing> And then, uh, he takes off his toupee, he leaves it on the ground and walks off into the darkness, and the toupee is sitting there in the spotlight to close out the show. <unk:singing> And how successful was it? In what way? <laugh> During the 2003 Fringe Festival, Buddy Cianci the Musical did six sold-out shows at the LATEA Theater. Afterwards, the cast did a reading of the musical for the Providence Performing Arts Center, or PPAC, to see if they might want to put on a production in Providence. But in the end, PPAC passed on the show, and it was never performed again. Artistically, you know, it w- it was an interesting experiment for is. I wouldn't… you know, there's… In terms of the reviews, they were mixed. We had a couple really good ones, a couple really bad ones, and a couple that were like, Meh, uh, it could, it could be, with work. I think the- the best review I got was from Buddy himself, which was, uh… He never saw the show, because he was, you know, in prison at the time. And uh, I went to see the documentary that, uh, Cherry Arnold? Is that her name? Did about him, and he was there. He- he'd gotten out of prison recently. You know, I had to go up and say hi, of course. And I said, Hi, I'm Jonathan Van Gieson, I've written a musical about you. He's like, Oh, yeah, yeah, I heard about that. Yeah, yeah. I talked to Lynn over at, uh, PPAC about it. He said it was unfixable. And I was like, I just got Buddy'd, didn't I? I just got… he just cut my legs out from under me right here. I'm like… So I said that to Mike <laugh> and Mike's response, I thought, was great. Yeah, it's totally fixable. <laugh> Yeah, that was… Come on. That… <laugh> I- I disagree with Lynn from PPAC. <laugh> <unk:singing> Crimetown is me, Zach Stuart-Pontier, and Marc Smerling, in partnership with Gimlet Media. As the year draws to a close, we wanted to take a chance to thank our incredible team. You all do so much great work, and we really do appreciate it. Thank you for putting up with us. And to all you Crimetown junkies out there, from the entire Crimetown team, thanks for listening this year. As a small token of our appreciation, all the songs that you heard on today's show are available to download for free on our website crimetownshow.com. Be careful, they're very catchy. Have a merry Christmas, and a happy New Year. <unk:singing> This episode was produced by Nikita Burdein, Rob Szypko, and Austin Mitchell. Our senior producer is Drew Nelles. Editing by John White, Soraya Shockley, and MR Daniel. Buddy Cianci the Musical was written by Jonathan Van Gieson and Mike Tarantino. The Crimetown recordings of their songs were produced by Nikita Burdein. They were arranged and recorded by Dan Reitz, at Dan Reitz Studios. The cast included Michael Lutton as Buddy Cianci, Ali Reed as Nancy Ann Cianci, Christian Paluck as Dennis Aiken, Nikita Burdein as Tony Freitas, Brian Hansbury and Elizabeth Slack as Department of Public Works employees, and additional characters performed by: Joe Leonardo, James Bruffee, Lane Kwederis, Kiki Mikkelsen, Matt Giroveanu, Chris Bell, and Daniel Tepper. Dan Reitz played the keyboard, trombone, guitar, bass and drums. Stefan Zeniuk played the saxophone and additional horns, and Dan Brantigan played the trumpet. This episode of Crimetown was mixed by Kenny Kusiak. Our credit track this week is Rosaleen Eastman's special holiday rendition of our theme song, Goat's Run to Your Mama. <unk:singing> Our ad music is by Matthew Boll. Thanks to Julia Heymans, Emily Wiedemann, Mike Stanton, Dan Barry, and everyone who shared their stories with us. Alex Bloomberg is the Podfather. He would go up to people and say, May I shake your hand? Sometimes they would, and sometimes they wouldn't. <unk:singing> And about next season, we have picked a city. We know you want to know what that city is. We are not going to tell you. Not yet, at least. Stay tuned. <unk:singing> Thanks to our sponsor, Spotify, the home of Crimetown season two: Detroit. To listen to season two of Crimetown for free, go to spotify.com/crimetown, or search for Crimetown in the Spotify app. At Merrill, it all starts with you. The you who's a caring parent. The you who's caring for a parent. No matter what your priorities are, Merrill provides advice and guidance to help you live the life you want. Learn more at ml.com/you. At Merrill, it all starts with you. The you who's a caring parent. The you who's caring for a parent. No matter what your priorities are, Merrill provides advice and guidance to help you live the life you want. Learn more at ml.com/you. <unk:singing> 

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+This episode is brought to you by Spotify, the home of Crimetown Season Two: Detroit. Just like this season of Crimetown, Season Two is full of colorful and interesting characters, and it's still hard to tell the good guys from the bad guys. Stick around during the mid roll break to learn how we made this season and why Detroit is a city built on hustle. This episode is brought to you by Merrill Lynch. At Merrill, it all starts with you. The you who works from home. The you who is working on that dream home. Start investing for the life you want with a dedicated advisor, self directed investing, or a Merrill Lynch professionally managed portfolio. Learn more at ML.com/you. In December of 2002, on a gloomy winter day, 61 year old Vincent Buddy Cianci arrived at Fort Dix Federal Prison in New Jersey. He was there to serve a sentence for racketeering conspiracy. Here he is talking to the co-author of his autobiography. Most of the time when you sat down and says, What am I doing here? Absolutely. This is insane. But it is insane, but when you get there you can't make the time do you. You gotta do the time, and you are- Buddy had once rubbed shoulders with senators, governors, even presidents, but now-… oh I was. Oh, I worked in the kitchen. The put me this high profile because I used to show the man up for serving food. I never did this work before. I had to mop floors. I had to, uh, wash dishes. I had to, uh, scrub pans and all that kind of stuff. and he made friends. One of the first guys he met was a mafia capo from Rhode Island named Matty Guglielmetti. They had heavy hitters there. There was, uh, uh, Guglielmetti was there. The guy, the mafia guy, and he's a nice guy by the way. I said to him, I used to razz him all the time, I said, You guys are smart, you're on more tapes than Frank Sinatra. <laugh>. And Guglielmetti wasn't the only Rhode Islander that he would meet in prison. Buddy also met someone you might remember from previous episodes. What are the chances of me, uh, landing in the same dorm with him? Well, it was just my luck that I did. Charles The Ghost Kennedy. I- I was very impressed with Buddy, because I went in… I'm there with somebody who can have a conversation without wanting to kill everybody. I started hanging around with him. I would go to dinner with him and when he would get out of work, I'd go down to his cell, but he was in a two-man cell and it was like a little oasis for me, because now I could get out of the dorm and go sit down and read and we'd talk. This… It was very enjoyable for me. Charles and Buddy both liked to keep up on current events, and Buddy had lots of newspapers and magazines sent to him in prison. I used to get tons and tons… it was embarrassing, because I'd stand there. The guys wouldn't get any mail, I would get like 30, 40 pieces of mail a day, sometimes. And me… I'm always a gracious reader, and I want my… I want my newspapers. I love the Providence Journal. I devour it. I go… Buddy, can I get on the train? He goes, You'll be first in line. He had the best subscription of newspapers. Picture it. Buddy Cianci, the Fallen Prince of Providence, in a prison cell with Rhode Island's most notorious drug dealer. Sitting side by side on a bunk, passing sections of the newspaper back and forth and making jokes that only another Providence political junkie would get. He had a windbreaker that he liked to wear and he lost it and he was upset. I knew somebody working in the laundry. I told the kid, I said, I need a large windbreaker. The orange one. The kid brings it over to- to my cell. When Buddy was indicted and he had a press conference, he said that you will find no stains on his jacket. I took out a little sticky pad I had, and I put a note on it. I said, uh, I hope you like your new jacket, and you'll find there are no stains on this jacket. So, I'm looking at his reaction and he opens it up and he started laughing. And I always told him, I said, You know Buddy, you're no criminal. <laugh> You know… like in the classic sets? When we first met Buddy Cianci way back in episode one, he was a crusading prosecutor taking on the mob. Now, Buddy's behind bars with the same criminals he put away at the beginning of his career. For the mayor of any other city, this would be the end of the road, but Buddy isn't any other mayor, and Providence isn't any other city. Today, in our last episode of the season, the final chapter in the story of Buddy Cianci, the longest serving mayor of Providence, Rhode Island. I am Mark Smerling. And I am Zach Stuart-Pontier. Welcome to Crimetown. Vote for Vincent Buddy Cianci, the anti-corruption candidate. He says, You know what? I think I'm going to run for mayor. Either that or I'm going to buy a boat. He said, We're going to start a movement. Democrats for Cianci. I said, What? I ain't fucking voting for that fucking piece of shit. And now the victory speech by Vincent A. Cianci, mayor. Thank you all very, very- Corruption was a part of the culture here, but I don't think they understood how deep the corruption ran. If you hand them <inaudible> $500, say use this for your campaign. <inaudible> that's the way you do things. That's the way the game is played. Come back to me. Come back to me. Come back to me. Alright, you're on, Jim. Go ahead. Mayor Cianci guilty on the first charge, the RICO count. That has just come up from the jury. Prison, when I went there shackled and chained and… and I said, What the hell has my life come to? Oh, I hated him. I wanted everything bad to happen to him. He worked hard to make sure I get defeated for city council and for mayor. I worked hard to try to get him defeated for mayor. This is Joe Paolino. He became the mayor of Providence after Buddy was forced from office the first time for beating up a guy in his living room. And when Buddy attempted his comeback in 1990, Paolino fought hard against him. I want to ask every single person in this room to band with me into agreeing with an ideal and a goal that this city should never be turned back to the <inaudible> ever again. But many years later, after Buddy had been sent to prison, Joe Paolino ran into a mutual friend and asked about his old political enemy. And I said, Gee, how's he doing? And she, Why don't you write him a letter? So, what am I going to do? Ask him how you doing the <inaudible>? So, what do you ask him? She just tell him gossip. She just wants to hear what's going on. One letter. One page letter. I got a return of three pages. Sent him a page and a half or two page next. I got a five page letter. All of a sudden, we became pen pals. Through that, he, um, he asked me after about a year or two would I ever consider visiting him. Never been to one of those places before. So, I said yeah, put me on the list and I'll come down. Got there about 10 in the morning and you got to go in and they have a locker you got to put things in, your clothes, and they check you out and you're going through a door, and another door. The place is dirty. There's a cafeteria, vending machines all over. I was told to bring a lot of quarters and dollar bills. Joe watched as prisoner number 05000-070 walked into the visiting room in a simple khaki uniform, but he looked thinner and older and he wasn't wearing his toupee. Didn't have the squirrel on his head. Uh, we sat down, started talking. Talking about mutual friends. Talking about family. Been comparing notes about mutual enemies. Remember when I did this to you? Yeah, you remember when I did this back to you? Two ex-mayors sitting across a cold, metal table reminiscing about the old days. I said, why the hell they give you the credit? I- I had to shovel. I started the project. He said, But I cut the ribbon. That's what they remember. But Buddy and I used to kid each other and, um, I said Buddy, I really did that. Uh huh, Joe, I really did that. Then finally we tell <inaudible> we both did it. And we just kept on talking. I got to tell you… it went by like 20 minutes. Went by 20 minutes, he asked me would I come back again. I said sure. I mean, when I left there, I just shook my head the first time. I said, boy this guy doesn't belong here. Too much talent wasted in a box. But even in that box, Buddy still found ways to use his political talents. One night, I'm laying down in my bunk and a guy had come into the room… new guy from New York. Said something and he stole somebody's toothpaste. So, guy from another room comes in and says, You stole my toothpaste. I saw you steal my toothpaste. I'm gonna fight. And in prison, when you know they're going to fight, they take their shoes off and they put their sneakers on. 'Cause that better footing, yeah. To prevent a fight, Buddy stepped in and suggested the prisoners take a vote to decide if the new guy from New York should be reported to the guards. They go around the room. I want them out, too. He could steal my shit. I was missing something from my locker last week. He might've taken it. Now votes comes down to me. Mayor… they used to call me mayor… what do you think? I think they're all fucking nuts. Going to be a big investigation as to who stole the fucking toothpaste. We're all going to go to the fucking hole. I said now, look. Up there, you. You're a fucking drug dealer, right? <laugh>. You, you robbed a fucking bank. You, you, uh, you're a, uh, uh, uh, a fucking, uh, computer hack. You, you're a… whatever you did. Right? Go around and said him. I said he stole fucking toothpaste. <laugh>. I said the problem is he's got nothing. Now, that's why he stole toothpaste. Now, I got shit in my locker. I get up. I says I'm going to get him some toothpaste. So now, <inaudible> back around. Why don't you help him out? Get him something and maybe he won't steal anymore. Guy's got nothing. Yeah, all right. Said, how many of you guys would like to have a trial? Like and- and- and- how would you like to be treated like this? I said where you can help somebody out, would you like to be treated like that? All right, mayor. You're right. Right. But I mean, these kids had no brain cells and are at risk to going to the hole for four weeks, five weeks for investigation over a fucking tube of toothpaste. Buddy became the unofficial mayor for Dix. A guy you could talk to but building relationships in prison had it's downsides. I live with those guys, and you establish relationships. They leave. They either get transferred to another prison or their time is up. You lost a friend. They would leave and I would watch them from my window. Most of them, their life… their whole life is in a laundry bag. Well, they give you a laundry bag and you take it out. You got to buy it, by the way and they have to have a couple of pairs of socks, and a couple of pairs of, uh, underwear and maybe some toiletries and a couple of books and some letters. Then they're on their way out. You'll never see them again. But, there's always hope when they leave because you know they had their day and you're going to get your day. The phone call comes in the night before, and he said, This is warden so and so. I have your uncle on the phone. This is Buddy's nephew, dr Brad Turchetta. Buddy gets on the phone and Buddy's voice and says, Boss. I need you here 4 AM. And I said what? Just be here at 4 AM. I'll give you back to the warden. Warren said to me that day I had so many calls from the media. They wanted pictures of him. They want him coming out of prison. The warden did not want that… any kind of that media hype. So, he had us go down early and couldn't tell a soul. It was May 29, 2007. That evening, Brad picked up Buddy's daughter Nicole and they hit the road. I was going to be the driver and she I were going to go down and pick him up. It's 5 plus hours and we get to the prison, and we got to go to a certain gate that we've never been into so we're trying to find it. And we eventually find it and pull off on the road. So, we're waiting and all of a sudden I see a car <inaudible> flick it's lights on and off. So, I turn my lights out and so he drives over. My heart's beating. You know, I'm in the middle of New Jersey, nowhere. And a guy rolls down his window and he says, Are you here to pick up the package? And I said, I guess I am. So, we followed him. We go inside the gate and there's Buddy. Another car, he's got a satchel full of all of his personal items and we sign him out. So, he's happy. We get in the car and we start driving to a private road that leads us to the Jersey Turnpike and we are up and gone. And all the press was waiting at that one gate. And they thought I was going to get out at 9:00 in the morning and I remember listening on a radio, Oh, we're waiting for the mayor to come out. Live television, We're waiting for the mayor to come out. We're waiting. We're waiting. He should be out. We have telescopic lens. I was already going over the George Washington Bridge when that was happening. Brad had assembled a care package for Buddy. A cell phone, potato chips, and twizzlers, and Buddy's toupees. There was a bunch of toupees that- that he had, so I brought them all. I think there were four, actually. Once they were in the clear, Brad pulled over at a rest stop so Buddy could take a moment to enjoy his freedom. We pull over, and we get out of the car, and he lights up a cigarette. He's in their sweats, he takes a few drags, and he's got his toupees I brought him. He puts them on and… I don't know if his head shrank or the toupees grew, but they looked ridiculous. He starts taking some drags of the cigarette, and he starts doing this… all I can describe it as this crane walk. Picture Ralph Macchio and the karate kid with his hands up in the air. Buddy stepping… almost goose stepping forward with a toupee on and a cigarette in his mouth. Smoking like he's hot. He is so excited to breathe in fresh, free air. Something I'll never forget. When he returned when he came back from prison, it was just electric. It was a buzz. This is Ron st Pierre, the talk show host you met in the last episode, and now he wanted to give Buddy his old radio show back. Yeah, I remember saying to my boss, You wouldn't spend a penny on promotion, okay? This is one name. Share. It's Ringo. Boom. Everybody knows. All you have to do is say Buddy. Buddy settled into life as a local celebrity and radio talk show host commenting on the news of the day. Yeah, they don't even need secret service because if anybody ever bumped off Obama, which we don't want to- don't ever want to see, Biden would be president. My God. You know how awful that would be if Biden was president? That's the best security you could possibly have is Biden. Rendering judgment on those in power. Now, this caught my eye. Nancy Pelosi, she spent a little over $2.1 million just on crisscrossing the country in a big, Air Force jet. How about that? Just in a big air force- And of course, taking calls from his fans. I used to call in and tell you I was, you know, the guy that voted for you for governor. Oh, God. That's years ago. That's from the old days. I read for governor in 1980 and we all have a reunion, we meet in a phone booth. Everybody <inaudible>. <laugh>. In 2008, Buddy decided the time had come for him to write his autobiography. So, he partnered with a prominent author named David Fisher. They first met in the Biltmore Hotel in downtown Providence and this is a recording of that meeting. I just tell you by way of introduction. This will tell us <inaudible>. <inaudible> were salesman, says to children, his kids, You know I was in Providence today selling 'em and I had, uh, breakfast with the mayor of Providence at the Biltmore Hotel. Nice guy. So, I'm <inaudible> with that line and years later Arthur Miller came to the Biltmore Hotel at a dinner and so I met him. I gave him the key to the city. I said now you're really going to meet the mayor of Providence. <laugh> Key to the city. David taped hours of conversations with Buddy. You have been hearing some of those recordings this season and during one of their many dinners, David asked Buddy a question. Would he ever run for mayor again? Would you consider it again? Sure. You would? Yeah. I don't think my account would like it, but proud to do this work. I don't like the way I left. I've never walked out of that office, um, shall I say… I don't know what it's like to leave that office, because you're just… your term was over. <laugh>. Every time I leave the office, lawyers were- Yeah. <laugh>. I think if you ran for mayor tomorrow, you would get it. Oh. Thank you for saying that, but they got a mayor. We want him to do well. Oh, yeah. And hopefully he will. <laugh> Hopefully he will. It didn't take me long to realize that he was never not running for public office, if you know what I'm saying, right? Again, radio talk show host Ron. st Pierre. If- if- if <inaudible> and defense were an Olympic sport, he'd get the gold, and maybe the silver and the bronze, too. Could Buddy Cianci, a two time felon, twice kicked out of office, make another comeback? That's after the break. This episode is brought to you by Spotify. The home of Crimetown Season Two. For Season Two, we've moved from Providence to Detroit. I brought senior producer Drew Nelles into the studio to talk about it. Hey, Zach. Thanks for coming by. I love to be in the studio with you. It's so fun. It's always fun. You don't spend enough time together. One of my favorite things about this season carried over from last season is that you're going to hear from a lot of really colorful characters. So, who are some of your favorites, uh, characters that you've met? Um, I mean in Episode One, just talking to Mary <inaudible> Jackson, that was one of the best interviews I've ever done. She was one of the first black women to be hired on the Detroit Police Department. Then we follow her on one of her most famous cases. Yes. Yeah. Which is- No spoilers. Which has a lot of twists and turns. It's almost stranger than fiction, I would say. It is. To meet these characters and to learn why Detroit is a city built on hustle, listen to season two of Crimetown for free on Spotify. Go to spotify.com/crimetown or search Crimetown in the Spotify app. This episode is brought to you by Merrill Lynch. At Merrill, it all starts with you. The you who's expecting a new addition. The you who's building a new edition. As your needs evolve, Merrill provides advice and guidance that evolves with you. They help you build a personalized financial strategy that starts with what matters most to you. With the right balance of straight forward tools, and access to professionals when you need them. Whether you prefer working with a dedicated advisor, self directed investing, or a Merrill Lynch professionally managed portfolio, Merrill provides advice and guidance to help you live a life you want. Learn more at ML.com/you. Investing in securities involves risks. Investments are not FDIC insured, are not bank guaranteed, and may lose value. Merrill Lynch and Merrill make available products and services offered by Merrill Lynch, <inaudible> Smith Incorporated, a registered broker dealer, registered investment advisor, member SIPC and the <inaudible> of Bank of America Corporation. This episode is brought to you by Google Home Hub, the new command center for your smart home. You've put a lot of love into cultivating your smart home. First, you've got those light bulbs that change color with a click and an app. Then there was the thermostat, which let you change the temperature with another app. Then there was the doorbell, and its app. The security camera and its app, and the robot vacuum, with it's own app. Now, you have to scroll through your phone for five minutes when you get home just to turn your lights on. With Google Home Hub, you'll never have to scroll through dozens of apps to light up your entry way. Google Home Hub is a new kind of display, with the Google Asssitant built in which shows you your home at a glance. Just one swipe on the screen, and you can control your smart devices from one place or you can just say, Hey, Google. Dim the lights. And voila, mood lighting the moment you want it. That's a smarter way to run your smart home. Google Home Hub is available now at the Google Store and leading retailers. Compatible smart devices required. Welcome back. One afternoon in 2014, after months of speculation, Buddy Cianci took to his radio show to make an announcement. Today, I wish to share with you my personal plans for the future public service. There are some of you who may say that this is an 11th hour decision, but I assure you it was not made irrationally or in haste. Rather it has been conceived with much soul searching and reflection. Today, with a sense of humility, contrition, and confidence, I announce to you my candidacy for Mayor of Providence. Buddy Cianci was running for mayor for the seventh time. The 73 -year old Cianci wants his old job back, holding court on this night at a drag bingo game. Under the B for Buddy. Six. Why dive back in? We've had over a decade of decline in the city. That's number one, and I looked around to see who was running, and none of them division and so I decided that I would run for mayor. Cianci has his share of critics, but the polls show Providence just might give Buddy another try. Now, campaign 2014. The Providence Mayoral Debate. Live from Rhode Island College, a televised debate among the candidates for Providence Mayor. First, let's tackle the topic that's been front and center from the beginning, at least since June, and that is mr Cianci's entrance into the race. Buddy was running as an independent and his main opponent was a young democrat named Jorge Elorza. mr Elorza, at a recent forum, you said, and I quote, I think it's an embarrassment that mr Cianci is running for mayor. If he's such an embarrassment, why are more than one in three voters supporting him? You know, that's truly the question. We have a clear choice in this campaign. We can vote for honest leadership that moves the city forward, or we can go back to the failed and corrupt politics of the past. Let's leave behind all of the corruption and what led the ex-mayor to go to jail. Buddy's republican opponent, Daniel Harrop, put a finer point on it. mr Cianci has a half century history of recurrent thuggish criminal behavior. Well, let me tell you this. I've made mistakes in my life. I'm sorry for them. I'm humbled by them, but there were no mistakes in the area of developing the city of Providence when I was mayor. You know I've been with him for a long time and he was not 100% during that 2014 campaign. You can see it in the debates. This is Paul Campbell, Buddy's friend and longtime campaign manager. He wasn't as sharp as he had been in the past. He was 60.6%. 66 and that's the limit. My budget went from 2000 <inaudible> to 2003, basically. 64% in 2003. Yeah, so it was up there. It wasn't… but it was the plan. It wasn't 100%. Never said it was 100%. But I think his mind was somewhat distracted by, uh, it would certainly distract me. Trying to deal with, uh, a challenge like that. I knew he was sick, uh, and he was, uh, being treated for, uh, colon cancer. Apparently he had delayed treatment for quite a while and it was pretty advanced. And I told him that, uh, you know he's got to make the decision based on his own, um, his own goals. His own vision and- and- and in a sense his own, uh, survivability. I went up to a barber shop up in, uh, you know the Elmhurst section of the city. Long time Providence Journal reporter Mike Stanton followed Buddy's campaign. And there was this <inaudible> barber holding court above Buddy and how he loved Buddy and- and this guy had a huge Cianci for Mayor campaign sign on the roof of his building, and all around him was all these new Guatemalan immigrants. But then this quite little sign right in the window of the Guatemalan bakery, you know, was for Jorge Elorza, his opponent. And the demographics of the city had changed. One of the state's most closely watched races. Race for Providence mayor political newcomer Jorge Elorza beat out two time mayor, independent Vincent Buddy' Cianci and Republican Daniel Harrop. I can tell you that it's kind of- it's kind of- it's kind of a bittersweet, you know, uh, uh, night tonight because this will be my last campaign. Uh, for this year. Buddy! Buddy! Buddy! Buddy! Buddy! Buddy! Buddy! Buddy! Buddy! You know, you know there were some people who said that we shouldn't have even been in this race and maybe they were right. However, I can tell you this. I can- I can tell you that I loved every minute of it. I can tell you that it was a great experience and it was a great, great love affair that I had with the city of Providence that will never end, that will continue til the day I die. Yeah! Buddy! Check. Check. Check. Check. Check. Check. So, we are downtown Providence at the City Hall for the unveiling of the official Buddy Cianci <inaudible> portrait. It's now 2015 and Zach and I are in Providence for a special event. A new portrait of Buddy is being unveiled in City Hall. Hi, how are you? We're here for the unveiling. Thank you. We walk into the alderman's chamber and wait for Buddy to arrive. This will be my second time meeting Buddy Cianci. When I was 21, a friend took me for a drink at the Biltmore Hotel. He saw Buddy and pointed him out. Sitting alone at the bar, hovering over a martini. My friend asked if I wanted to meet the mayor of Providence, so we walked over and Buddy lit up. It was just a chance encounter. A guy who knew a guy who happened to know the mayor, but Buddy made me feel like an old friend. He asked me questions about myself and told stories. We talked for half an hour and then said our goodbyes. Not long after, I read an article about a fireplace log and a cigarette. How Buddy had attacked a man in his living room. I couldn't recognize the Buddy I was reading about as the Buddy I just met, and that… the inability to reconcile the two sides of Buddy never left me. When Zach and I started this podcast, I got Buddy's cell phone number and he and I talked a few times and that's how I find myself here in City Hall at this portrait unveiling. I'm here to convince the six time mayor of Providence to talk to me about his life. There it is. No, I know. Here comes Buddy. He's coming over to say. <inaudible>. Hey, Buddy. I'm Mark Smerling. We talked on the phone. Oh, how are you? You're Mark? I'm Mark. Oh, okay. Glad to see you. Yeah, yeah. That's Zach. I saw you on TV. Yeah. I told you that <inaudible> thing. Yeah. Absolutely. How are you? Just like that, Buddy's off to shake another hand, win another vote in an election that will never happen. Before I… before we set the <inaudible> I do want to say a few things. The man MC-ing the ceremony is Buddy's old enemy turned friend, and prison visitor, Joe Paolino. because if anybody asks me in the 1980s what I ever be the MC for Buddy Cianci's portrait, I would've done just what you're doing now. I need to tell you that sometimes the best friend you can have is somebody who is your greatest foe. Paolino finishes his introduction and it's finally time to see Buddy's new portrait. Wow, look at that. There, high up on the wall, is Buddy as he used to be. As everyone remembers him standing in the mayor's office toupee on his head, presiding over the Renaissance City. His city. Then Buddy, as he is today, old and bald and thin steps up to the microphone. Well, let me say this is, uh, an honor but I must say it's not the first time I've been framed. After Buddy speaks, people <inaudible> around while picking at cheese plates and drinking white wine. But it all seems too much for Buddy. He walks over to a bench and sits down. <inaudible> He just fell over. He's not feeling good. He's not feeling good. Buddy slumps over. He's not responding. He seems to have passed out. He's collapsed. Security starts to clear the room. Clear the hallway. Did you guys see what happened? He was just sitting and they just started like… I saw them just like slapping his face. Wake up, wake up. That's all I saw. It's hot in there. It's just hot and yeah, and then they- Buddy is taken away in an ambulance. My god, if he doesn't live. We were there the night Buddy Cianci died. Got his last speech on- And it was a good one. It really was. It really was a good one. You saw his hand, though? His hand was like this. Yeah, he was having a stroke. He probably had a stroke. The heat. But then a few hours later, Buddy is spotted at an after party at his favorite Italian restaurant on Federal Hill. I'm fine. I was a little dehydrated. I'm back eating and looking forward to having my pasta. Um, the rumors are- Buddy has made so many improbable recoveries over his long career. Seems to have made another one. We keep in touch. Not long after, Buddy calls to say he's ready to talk on tape. We set a date and I tell him I'll see him soon. And then a couple days later, he dies. We have from confirmed sources that former Providence mayor Vincent Buddy' Cianci has died. Cianci has passed away at the age of 74. As you know- Roughly a year earlier, when Buddy knew he had cancer and was deciding to run for mayor one last time, he sat with his friend Joe Paolino and made a list of pros and cons. I said let's look at the cons. Cons, you're going to lose a lot of money. You'll be kissing women with jelly donuts in their mouth at a home for the elderly. I said you're going to be doing all the stuff that we've always had to do in order to get a vote. I said and you have cancer. Okay, let's look at the pluses. Pluses, you're probably going to die in office. You could tell your police commissioner, Show me what my funeral will look like. Tell them you want to lay out in City Hall. Thousands gathered at City Hall this weekend to say goodbye to Cianci. You're on a horse drawn carriage. His casket was carried down the steps this morning and was brought by a horse drawn carriage to the Cathedral of Saint Peter and Paul. You want to have the people throwing roses at the hearse up Atwells Avenue saying that they miss you. He did so much for this city and we all love him and we're all gonna miss him. Now you're making it enticing. Turns out, Buddy didn't need to win the election to get the funeral he wanted. You know, he was a gentleman, besides his faults. You know everybody has faults. There was nothing wrong with what this guy did. I believe that he just loved Providence too much. At Buddy's funeral, the church is packed with people from his past. Cops, politicians, and judges sit shoulder to shoulder with crooks and ex-cons. They all grew up together, attended school together, went to each other's weddings and funerals. That those in public office may promote justice and peace while continuing the work of our brother Mayor Vincent A. Cianci, jr Let us pray. Lord, in your divine Providence, hear our prayer. In death, just as in life, Buddy divided the city. Some praised him. Some condemned him. Others just remembered him. Personally, I thought he got fucked. Jerry Tillinghast, the wise guy who helped round up votes for Buddy so he could win his first election. Anyway, so, and then last summer when I was running for mayor, I run into him at <inaudible>. He's sitting there and he's looking at me. I says, You don't know me, Buddy? He says, I'm trying. I says, Jerry Tillinghast. So, how you doing? We shook hands, and in turn he says, You still live in Providence? I started laughing, I says no, but I still have a lot of other tips. I said I'm going to do what I can for you. He said, Oh, okay. Thanks. You know? And that was that. I think he's a man who wasted the talents that he had. Dennis Akin, the FBI agent who brought Buddy down. I think he was smart, but he used it for his own greed and personal satisfaction. He loved nice things and he loved power and power took over. He could have been a really, really good mayor or even more because he certainly had the talent. But he didn't choose that road. He'll be remembered as dr Jekyll and mr Hyde. Mike Stanton, the reporter who trailed Buddy and wrote a book about his life. That mixture of good and evil, um, that ability to bring people together and drive them apart, um, that ability had this vision for this city on the hill, but then kind of dragged the city into the sewer. It's very complicated. He was a very complicated man. If he was just dr Jekyll, he'd be boring. We wouldn't care about him. If he was just mr Hyde, we would hate him and despise him and not want to know much about him. No one, not a politician or a priest, not a bishop or a bus driver, should ever be defined solely by their faults. Lord, in your divine province, hear our prayer. Providence is essentially two hills on either side of a river. On one side is Federal Hill, the former headquarters of mob boss Raymond Patriarca. On the other bank is the east side, where Brown University is, where the doctors and lawyers and professionals live. One great contribution to the city that I made, was all this physical stuff, yeah maybe. No, that wasn't it. It was the raising of the self esteem of these people in the city who always thought they were pieces of shit. Providence has never quite been able to reconcile it's two halves, just as Buddy was never able to reconcile his. The dark Buddy and the light. The Jekyll and the Hyde. I've got people to believe in themselves. They had to <inaudible> an individual. They focus around me. They <inaudible> it's cause I had all this national shit of all the trouble I had, but the city came to life, too, and it became a national story. I became their guy. In the end, it's impossible to say whether Buddy changed Providence or Providence changed Buddy. Buddy was Providence and Providence, for better or for worse, was Buddy. Almost like a symphony, a city has got to sing it's got to dance, and- and- and it's has to <inaudible>, I mean like a like a musical score. Mark and I want to say thanks to everyone who listened to this first season of Crimetown. We had a lot of fun making the show. And to our team, Drew, Austin, Kaitlin, Matt, and Laura, you're all rock stars. Thank you for making the show what it is. We really couldn't have done it without you. And Alex, you've never wavered. You brought us into the <unk:Gimlet> family, and we learned so much. It's truly been an honor. Keep an eye on our feed for bonus episodes and for news about season two. It's coming. Crimetown is me, Mark Smerling, and Zach Stuart-Pontier. We are produced by Drew Nelles, Kaitlin Roberts, Austin Mitchell and Mike Plunkett. Our associate producer is Laura Sim. We're edited by Alex Bloomberg and Kaitlin Kenney. Fact checking by Mick Rouse. This episode of Crimetown was mixed, sound designed, and scored by Matthew Ball. Additional mixing by Enoch Kim, Martin <unk:Peralta> and Kenny <unk:Kusiak>. Additional sound design by Ted Robinson and Silver Sound. Our title track is Run to Your Mama by Goat. Our credit track, this week, is Rhode Island is Famous For You covered by <unk:Rosalyn_Eastman>. Original music by <unk:John_Kusiak>, <unk:Kenney_Kusiak>, John Ivans, Edwin, and <unk:Beanart>. Our ad music is by Matthew Ball. Our digital editor is Rob <unk:Zipco>. Our design director is <unk:Ale_Lariu>. Archival footage courtesy of WPRI Channel 12. Alex Bloomberg is the pod father. He has a half century history of recurrent, thuggish, criminal behavior. This season of Crimetown is dedicated to the memory of Bill <unk:Malinowski>. Thanks to the Providence Journal, Julia <unk:Haymens>, Emily <unk:Wiedemann>, Brad <unk:Turchetta>, and the Cianti's tape. Kate Parkinson Morgan, <unk:Yuya_Kudo>, Tim White, Lisa Newby, Wayne Miller, Kate Wells, Mary Murphy, Dan Barry, David Jacobson, and everybody who shared their stories with us. For a full list of credits, bonus content, and to sign up for our newsletter, visit our website at crimetownshow.com. You can find us on Twitter at Crimetown and our Facebook and Instagram at Crimetown Show, and if you enjoyed Crimetown, leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. It really helps others find out about the show. Thanks. Providence is a special place and we're honored to have told a part of it's story. Thanks to our sponsor Spotify. The home of Crimetown Season Two: Detroit. To listen to season two of Crimetown for free, go to spotify.com/crimetown or search for Crimetown in the Spotify app. At Merrill, it all starts with you. The you who's a caring parent. The you who's caring for a parent. No matter what your priorities are, Merrill provides advice and guidance to help you live the life you want. Learn more at ML.com/you. From Gimlet. You hurting me? Magic hands Delores, that's me in the flesh. A new scripted fiction podcast, starring Daphne <unk:Rubin-Vega> and Bobby <unk:Cannavale>. We had a <inaudible> his body. I found a solution, okay, and I'm getting rid of evidence. The horror of Delores Roach. Hey, Louise. Yeah. Did your dad… did your dad die in this room? Listen now to all episodes wherever you get your podcasts. Alright, so they are handing off a box. Marks got the box in his hand. Oh my God. And on it is written Buddy Tapes. Holy shit. 

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+The presenting sponsor of Pod Save America is ZipRecruiter. Boy, the tone of our voices to this ad… Yeah. could be so different. Let's… You know what? They've thought of it. I know, it's gonna be funny. You know what's not smart? What? Trying to write a post-election script before the election happens. ZipRecruiter, good one. You know what is smart, is using ZipRecruiter.com/cricket to find qualified candidates fast. You know what is also smart, taping this before we either are, destitute or too happy. Unlike other job sites, see I'm, my, my tone. I'm going to have my tone right in the middle- No, I'm thinking about des- Destitute. Yeah. You mean- Poor? No you mean like, uh, despondent. Destitute means poor. Yeah, that means, that means bereft of things, uh, I wanted. Unlike other job sites, ZipRecruiter doesn't wait for other candidates to find you, ZipRecruiter finds then for you. ZipRecruiter's powerful matching technology scans thousands of resumes, identifies people with the right skills, education and experience for your job and actively invites them to apply. No more slogging through the wrong resumes, there's less waiting and more hiring. By the time you here this we would have known what happens in the election. We're going to try to have a tone where you actually can't tell what happened in the election. Yeah. How about that, not to, not too glib, not too sad. That's our sweet spot. <laugh>. It's no wonder that ZipRecruiter is rated number one by employers in the US guys, that's from hiring sites on trust pilot, with over 1,000 reviews. Destitute would have worked. Lacking something new- <laugh:chuckle>. desirable. I needed to win. ZipRecruiter is the smartest way to hire- <laugh>. Right now our listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free at the cricket link, ZipRecruiter.com/cricket, and we get credit for sending you. So go to ZipRecruiter.com/cricket again, that's ZipRecruiter.com/cricket. Did we win the election? We don't know. We don't know. Welcome to Pod Save America, I'm Jon Favreau I'm Jon Lovett I'm Tom Vietor. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. Got the whole crew here today to talk about the election that happened last night. Old news, Jon. We're talking about Sessions. <laugh> <laugh> Yeah, we also, we'll also be talking about Jeff Sessions, who was just fired. Let's be honest. The president technically asked for his resignation but he was fired. What a dumb technicality. And the president installed a fucking republican hack. Uh, in his place. And who knows what will happen to the Mueller investigation now. So, that's huge news. Which I'm sure he wanted because he wanted to step on the election results last night. We're not going to let that happen. No, were going to talk about those first and then we'll get to our friend Jeff Sessions. Can't kill this high. <laugh> Quick programming note. Next week the pod will be out on Tuesday evening because we're giving everyone a crooked media Monday off. Alright, Democrats took control of the House of Representatives last night, winning 26 seats. They are ahead in 8 more. Plus a few more in California, that are too close to call. We'll probably end up with 35 -ish seats. Um, democrats held all seven contested governorships where they had democratic governors. And flipped another seven. Defeating a number of Republicans, including two of our favorite villains, Chris Kobach and Scott Walker. We flipped 333 state legislative seats. Seven state houses and won 3 trifectas, where democrats now control the state houses and the governorships. Finally, we flipped one senate seat. Jacky Rosen defeating dirty Dean Heller. But we lost four. Missouri, Indiana, North Dakota, and it looks like Florida though it may be going into a recount. Hey Jon, how does Paul Bunyan's ox say hello? How? It's a blue wave. <laugh> <laugh> Overall takeaway. Fine night, goodnight, fucking great night? That's a question from Dan Pfeiffer. <laugh> Dan, why don't you start since you asked the question. I think it's a good night. Good night? I should have put a fourth option somewhere between good and fucking great. So… That's kind of where I am. Yeah. I think it, it is great. I think say we can't say it fucking great because we missed some opportunities in the Senate. We missed some governors races but we won the house which is everything. Yeah And it changes everything in politics. And… we have As we're seeing today. Yeah, as were seeing today. And… As we soon shall see. Yeah, I mean things I'm really happy about, taking the house. Enormous. We're in control of all the committees now. Adam Schiff is now in charge, not Devin Nunes, of the house intelligence committee. We can investigate all the things we are about. Some really great people won. Like, Lucia McBath in Georgia's 6th district. Hold it out late last night. Amazing candidate. Good, great human being. Exciting race. We won governors races in Michigan, Wisconsin, Illinois, Kansas, Maine, Pennsylvania, New Mexico. Huge deal for you know control of power in those state for our ability to redistrict, for our ability to pass progressive legislation. Um, the year of the woman is real. More than a 100 women are on track to win in the house. Things I am sad about. I wanted a full rejection and repudiation of Trumpism, his racist fear mongering strategy. Uh, maybe that's a little naive because it's hardly new to win based on anger and fear and racism. But I wanted it. Um I wanted Andrew Gillum to win. I wanted Beto O'Rourke to win. But I always knew those were more difficult races, so I would say, very good night. B plus. Lovett? Yeah, I mean, you know I think about where two years ago, and what we said to each other, what we said again and again which was that we were heading into a really, really hard midterm. That the senate was nearly impossible. And the house was tough but doable. And that winning the house was central, not just for democratic politics and proving we can win but central to taking our county back and restoring checks and balances. And standing up for the basic virtues of the country. That that that I don't I, we were afraid to exaggerate before the midterms because we weren't sure if we would win the house, just how important winning the house would be. But I think if we were sitting here today, uh, having not won the house… <sigh>… Having. We would be, we would be looking at a demoralized majority of the country who feel like their voices don't matter. We would be looking at Donald Trump with total permission uh, to, uh, be corrupt, to pursue a radical agenda, to go after immigrants. To go after people of color. To go after trans people. Uh, and, uh, I'm really, really glad we didn't wake up in that country. And I'm very glad that what we hoped would happen, which is that all the marching, and the energy, and the protests and the paying attention would culminate in people actually turning out to vote. That was an open question and it is undeniable that we answered that question uh with a yes. People turned out. And republicans turned out too. But we turned out more. And we did what we had to do. And we actually have power and that changes everything. Uh now it was the highest turn out uh since I believe 1960. In a midterm. Broke all kinds of records. But of course, like you said Lovett, Republicans turned out too. No, look, a majority of Americans voted for Democrats and now Democrats represent a majority of Americans in the House of Representatives. There is a majoritarian representation for the first time in a while. Uh, despite all the gerrymandering. A majority of Americans are now governed by democratic governors. Which is also hugely important. And we can talk about why the senate's fucked up in a minute but, um, I-in those two, in in the sense of governorships and the house, there is now, we are closer to a real democracy. Dan, what were you going to say? I was going to say, we have, if you look at the difference between 2010, 2014, two midterms where Democrats did incredibly poorly, the reason we did well in 2018 is first time voters. Yeah. Its people who do not normally participate in midterms. People who, some of them even sat out 2016. Who decided to get engaged. And that was the big question that all the cynical pundits and political analysis have been saying. Will people actually turn out? Will young people turn out? Will people of color turn out in a midterm when they don't normally do it. And they did. And democrats now have power. The power to stop Trump's agenda for that very reason. Those those new voters don't turn out and young people don't turn out. Young people, we, we'll get the final numbers, but it looks like they increased their share in the midterms. Uh, certainly the margin among young people. And now when we say young people now, its really two, two groups now. Its 18-29 and it's 30-39, because the 30-39 year olds that you know, we were the Obama generation and now were voting heavily democrat. And their, they voted more heavily democratic. The margin between democrats and republicans among those two age groups is, if you you look at this chart it just sort of goes like off, off into different directions. It's the biggest margin it's ever been in a midterm. I would note that you put the cut off at young people at 39, even though I'm the only one over 39 sitting here. Oh sorry. <laugh> Yeah. <laugh> I still think of you in your late 30s. Thank you. Just one other thing too. There were republicans in the house, especially the house leadership, that made a devils bargain with Donald Trump, which is, they would capitulate to him. They would look past his abuses as long as they could cut taxes for the wealthy, as long as they could do the deregulation agenda they wanted to do. Um, some of them made their peace with it. Some of them issued, you know, tepid responses against it. Some of them used it, like Paul Ryan and his super PAC. And it is really, really important that that strategy did not work for Paul Ryan. It sends a really powerful message, uh, to future republicans uh that that there was not a majority in race bating and anti immigration sentiment, plus a deregulation, anti healthcare, sort of anti working person agenda. If they had been able to succeed in that, it would have been incredibly dangerous. And it is very exciting. And I've been waiting to say it on the podcast, and I want to say it one time. We get to take that gavel, from Paul Ryan's fucking hand. <crosstalk> Is what I wanted to say. I have no faith that it sends that message to republicans. <laugh> <crosstalk> I'm a little worried about that too. It is. Uh, you are right that it did not work. 100% right. That's why we're all happy today. Yeah. But they will cont-… well I think two things happen. Someone pointed out that um Mike murphy pointed this out today, GOP strategist, that Trump was talking today about it at his press conference, like maybe I'll work with democrats on infrastructure or drug prices. And its like, yeah, you know what? Uh, Nancy Pelosi, in the house, probably would work with Donald Trump on a big infrastructure package or a package, or a bill to reduce drug prices. And you know where it would die? In the republican senate, because you still have a bunch of republican establishment hacks who are so bad at politics… Yeah. Misreading politics, that they would be like, no we don't want infra structured drug prices because those things aren't conservative economic policy. And also, his his pledge to, his offer to do that was caveated uh with the assumption that democrats won't be thoroughly investigating. Oh right. Oh, yeah it's all bullshit. If you're nice to me, if you're good to me I won't I won't shoot you. <crosstalk> Don't uncover my crimes maybe we pay the fucking <inaudible> I get it. What I'm saying <laugh> But what you still have is a bunch of establishment republicans… Right. Who still believe that somehow, out there in the county there is a constituency for tax cuts and huge cuts to healthcare. And small government, all that kind of shit. And so they will continue to push that. And then you have Donald Trump and a bunch of Trump republicans, which is now the whole party, who believe that the road to power is race bating and xenophobia. And they will continue down that route. Right, well I mean, I think the truth is you can look at this election and draw both conclusions. Certainly, it is better that the republicans failed in their quest to use that strategy in the house. And maybe the lesson there is, in the way the house works, its more, its less advantageous than it is in Senate races where you can… Yeah. Sort of run up the score in rural places. And and you're trying to win across a whole state. So how how big of a deal is taking the house? We talked about this a little last night on the live stream but for those who didn't tune in. What changes now? What can the democrats do? I mean everything changes. It is, to quote Joe Biden, it's a big fucking deal. Mmm. Donald Trump can never pass another piece of legislation without Nancy Pelosi signing off on it. He can never pass an appropriations bill without Nancy Pelosi <crosstalk> <laugh> Tell me more, Dan. I like this. <laugh> And we, it is not all the power, its enough power. But we now have an actual level of power to negotiate over things. We may need democratic votes to do the very basic things in keeping the government open. And we can demand that some of these horrible regulations are, go away. We can demand funding for some, for our priorities. We can push back on some of the internal sabotage of the Corporal Care Act. It also means that they cannot, there is, a bill to repeal the Affordable Care Act will never be on the house, the floor of the house again. And then as we've pointed out, we now have the ability to issue subpoenas to look at what what happened. We are living in a world, a swamp of republican corruption. You have just the secretary of the interior, who has just been referred for criminal investigation. You have the President of the United States, and un-indited co-conspirator to multiple crimes. You have a RICO investigation to the entire family of the President of the President and his company. And all of… Sasha, Malia <laugh> Oh, wait. Different president? <crosstalk> Nancy, Ron jr <laugh> And in all those cases, we now have the ability to provide a measure of checks and balances on this president. Yeah yeah. How big of a deal is winning all those governorships and state legislatures? What does that mean? It's a massive deal. I mean, I think, one we just get to govern in a more progressive way in these states. One we get to. Two we get to increase access for voting rights for people. I mean, like think about, Dan you've talked about this before, I mean in Wisconsin, Scott Walker made it his life long ambition to prevent people who might vote democratic, so young people, African Americans, people of color, to prevent them from getting to the polls. We can now undo a lot of that work. Um, you know we can redistricting will be coming up so we can draw fairer maps in a lot of places, including in places like Maryland, where democrats drew pretty unfair maps. You might see some realignment. But generally speaking, like the democracy will be a lot healthier I think uh under the stewardship of these democratic governors. Yeah, you'll see a lot of progressive legislation pass and also, you've talked about this before Dan but, in 2020 for whoever the democratic nominee is it helps to have democratic governors in states like Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania. Um, so that's that's really great too. Um… Kansas, somehow. Kansas! Kansas is… Its so cool. Kansas is also a great example because, Kansas is where the supply side, tax cutting government destroying republicans were able to test their experiment. And it totally destroyed the Kansas economy. Kansas is Paul Ryan's America, in a bio dome. <laugh> What's the matter with Kansas? Uh, Paul Ryan. This won't get enough attention I think because Trump went out there and he's gonna talk about all the places he campaigned and take credit for everything he took credit for, but Kansas is an example of him being a poison pill. He endorsed Chris Kobach who lost the governorship in Kansas in like he primaried uh congressman Mark Sanford in South Carolina, the person he endorsed then went on to lose. So Trump was actually a poison pill in a couple elections. Yeah I was gonna say about Kansas too is its again you see a test of this idea as kind of someones anti immigrant bonifides be enough to overcome the sense in the state that right wing republican politics has been bad for business, bad for their bottom line, bad for people sort of you know ability to pay for things in their lives, their teachers. The teachers in their schools getting enough money and here the answer was no, which is really exciting and I think you can connect it and we're gonna talk about it, but that you can connect it to some of the um, uh ballot measures that passed that show you that inside of even deep republican states, there is a resistance to right wing politics and there is an openness to democratic ideas whether it's a medicaid expansion or electing a democratic governor even though you've been sending republicans to the senate for years and years. Does it get more conservative than Kansas? No. To have Laura Kelly win that governorship. I still think she could have won even with another republican because the, you have this <inaudible> of events where the um, under the stewardship of Brownback, it, he destroyed the economy so badly, that even republicans, independents you know in in Kansas, were saying okay it's time for someone new, we'll try a democrat. I remember. Our our old friend Kathleen Sebelius, who was <laugh> governor of Kansas in the our health and human services secretary, she reached out a couple of months ago and was like you guys should come do a pod in Kansas because we have real races here. We have a governors race, there's a couple house seats we could flip, and Sebelius, as she usually is, was absolutely right about that. We're like, we're not sure if we help. It's a little it's a little, Kansas to me, it's a little bit like uh, Laura Kelly showing up midway through the game Bioshock after they've tried libertarian governance and uh that's it. That's for five of you. <laugh> <laugh> Pod Saves America is brought to you by comedy central's the Daily Show with Trevor Noah. With the midterm elections in full swing and with America's sanity hanging in the balance, let Trevor Noah and the world's fakest news team try to make sense of all the issues that keep you up at night. Every election needs a hero, they'll let you know when they find one. The Daily Show with Trevor Noah weeknights at 11 / 10 central, only on Comedy Central. Pod Saves America is brought to you by Stamps.com. These days you can get practically everything on demand. Like this Pod cast. Listen whenever you want when it's convenient for you, so why are you still taking trips to the post office? Why? Nothing wrong with the post office, we're not saying anything negative about the post office. It's nice there. It's great there. It's fun there. But why are you taking trips when you can get postage on demand with Stamps.com. With Stamps.com you can access all the amazing services with the post office that we love, right from your desk, 24 / 7, when it's convenient for you. Buy and print official U.S. postage for any letter, any package, using your own printer and computer and the mail carrier, they'll just pick it on up. Come snag it. Just click, print, mail, you're done. Couldn't be easier. Hey Jon. Yes. Hey Tommy. Mmm. What travels around the world but also stays in the corner? A lie? A stamp. A stamp. Ah, a good one. Oh. I googled that one from something called jokesforall.net. <laugh> A tribute to Mark Twain. <crosstalk> love it or leave it. Right now use crooked for this special offer. It includes up to $55 of free postage, a digital scale and a four week trial. Don't wait. Go to Stamps.com before you do anything else, click on the radio microphone on the top of the homepage and type in crooked. That's Stamps.com, enter that code. Crooked. Crooked. Alright let's talk about why did democrats win. What happened. Why did we net all those seats last night? What did we do right? We ran everywhere. Great candidates. But you look at some of the seats we picked up. Seat knuckle holma, seat in Utah, uh seats in Texas. These are seats that have gone uncontested in years past and even if we did find a candidate, those races were not staffed, they weren't funded and it real, like the the <inaudible> deserves credit for the work they did, but a lot of the funding of these these reach districts, were funded at the grass root level, from people who believed, like we like we've told the story before about it and were we in Arizona or Colorado at a Pod show last year. Yeah Colorado and Denver. Col-Colorado last year and someone stood up. A woman who was a dreamer. Dreamer, but then told us that we could win that race and she was right. Mia Loverace in Utah. Mia Loverace in Utah. Yeah. She did I remember that. I remembered that last night when I saw it. I was like ah, this is what, that was the first time I heard that we could win that race. <laugh> And so we ran everywhere, we ran and we ran hard everywhere, and the grass roots drove what we did. And that's incredibly important because the effort to take back the house and to take back our country came from the bottom up. It came from groups like run for something, swing left indivisible, and to the credit of the more establishment groups, they were, they did not act threatened most of the time by these groups and worked with them and we ended up with really strong candidates and really strong campaigns up and down the ballot, all across the country. And the slate of candidates that was you know more female, there more more candidates where people of color. There were so many firsts. First Native American going to congress, with Sharice Davids. First uh, I mean we'll go through the first the first list later, but it it it's a very impressive slate of candidates. Tons of gays. <laugh> The gays are crushing it. I mean yeah it's funny. It's just not a traditional slate of candidates. Not a whole bunch of state reps and state legislators who took the next step. It's like Chrissy Houlihan is is a air force veteran and a business woman and educator. And Colin Allred in Texas played in the NFL. I mean these are exciting new types of candidates. They look different, they sound different, and and I think that worked. And congress will be better for it. I guess <laugh> <laugh> um, can't get worse for it. <laugh> We ran a very focused campaign. Every single one of those candidates ran on health care. We saw in the early exit polls, health care 41% of voters said it was their top issue, and democrats completely crushed and that's no easy thing because when Donald Trumps up there talking about caravans and mobs and all this other bullshit, it's very easy to take the bait and just get in a fucking fight with Donald Trump and republicans over this. And these candidates were laser like focused on health care and specifically protecting pre-existing conditions in all these races. And I think that is a lesson you know. I also wanna say like some of how some how some of these candidates won too and sort of took back some some Trump areas. Like we did very well in the Midwest. Um, although certain places in the Midwest. <laugh> Dan what what what do you think accounts for some of the Midwestern strength last night? I think we held onto Hilary Clinton's strength in the suburbs and so the sort of Romney Clinton voters who uh, who do not like Donald Trump and Donald Trump has sort of radicalized them against the republican party. And that was the question. Were we going to win these voters who voted for Romney and voted for Clinton. Would they vote for a democrat against the generic republican <inaudible> and yes. But we also did better in many places in the rural and <inaudible>. We held down some of our losses in 2016. Yeah. And that to me is like you see the path in 2020, which is, if we can maintain our enthusiasm and turn out in the suburbs and urban areas, and win back some of those Obama Trump voters, where we hold down the margins in the rural areas, then you can recon reconstitute the Obama coalition that won so handily in '08 and '12. That sort of path. And the candidates who won whether it's Gretchen Whitmer or um, Tony Evers, Sharon Brown, they did that. And the candidates who lost in those states were unable to do that. I want to talk about Gretchen Whitmer for a second because she's a rising star in the party and I want to talk about what she pulled off in Michigan. Um, in 2016, Trump won huge margins in working class areas in Michigan, and then Hilary's margins in affluent areas and suburbs and urban areas were underwhelming. Last night, Whitmer narrowed the margins in working class areas, ran up huge margins in affluent and urban areas, so she took back the Obama Trump counties that Hilary lost. Whitmer took those back and she matched Obama's margins in Detroit where Hilary fell short by 10 points of Whitmer and Obama. So it just goes to show you that like we had this election in '08 and '12 where Obama assembled this coalition in Michigan, Hilary lost a lot of it in '16 and last night, Whitmer put it back together and she ran this very disciplined campaign focused on the economy, talked about infrastructure. She had been responsible for expanding medicaid when she was in the Michigan legislature. So it just goes to show you like that is a path for democrats in the Midwest. Yeah. I mean another good example of that I think is the Iowa first district. Mmm. It was uh I remember when when when Hilary lost Iowa and we were looking at at how we got kinda blown out in those North Eastern Iowa districts that were to me was always like a place of progressive democratic strength… Yeah. In our kind of base cause working class places like the Buke and all these river counties. Um, Rod Blum won in 2016 with a 53% margin and I just felt like oh my God, what happened to Iowa. We got blown out. But last night, Abby Finkenauer won uh 50.9% to 46%. I mean she romped in that district and she is young and progressive and from a labor household and like an exciting you know she's what 28, 29? Yeah. <crosstalk> <laugh> It's a huge bounce back, which I think you know tells you a story about what can happen when you put forward a really great slate of candidates and you run a smart campaign. But I also think tells you a story about why 2016 was unique uh and there was something that big that went on at the top of the ticket that I think we corrected a little bit last night. Yeah. Alright, let's get to, why was the senate so hard last night? That was obviously the big, well I'd say, we have a couple of disappointments. Let's start with the senate. I think it's an easy, I think this is actually easy. America went to the polls and they came up with a split decision. Right Dan? <laugh> <laugh> <laugh> Dan what what do you think about the split decision? I would like to thank everyone on Twitter who's decided to send me every tweet that says split decision. So every time my rage subsides for a second, I am reminded of it. <laugh> um, anyone on the senate? I mean look I think some, if we really look at the map, like Trump won Missouri by double digits, Indiana by double digits, high double digits. <laugh> um, where else did we lose? Uh, North Dakota, by double digits. Florida we can fucking talk about in a second. <laugh> but I do think that some of these, like we won senators, democratic senators won in a lot of Trump states last night. Sharon Brown, Tammy Baldwin, Bob Casey. They did great. John Tester. John Tester just pulled it off right? It was closer there but he pulled it off. But in these other states where McCaskill lost and Donnelly, and Heitkamp, those were just Trumpier, redder states and I don't, I don't know that we'll see democratic senators in those states again. No like the country. It's scary. The country is pulverizing and the redder parts of the country are getting redder and the bluer parts are getting bluer. And the question going into last night was what was going to happen in the purple parts. Were they, were these Midwestern states on a bath to red because of demographic change, because of something Trump had done to shake up the the political coalitions in this country. And the answer to that is, as of last night at least, no. I think we have to look at all these senate races because I think there are a lot of lessons to learn there. What did John Tester do to win? That Heidi Heitkamp, Joe Donnelly, and Clare McCaskill could not do? That's a great question. What did Sharon Brown do to win that… Richard Cordray. Richard Cordray who running for governor of Ohio did not do? And I think we have to understand because we the the purple senate races, are the most important thing, short of the presidential election, we have to figure that out, because we have zero margin for error in the senate. We have to win every blue seat and every purple seat to even have have a shot at 50 in a system that gives the same amount of political power to Wyoming as it does to California and New York. Right and we can I see we can all complain about that. We can all say the Senate is undemocratic and it doesn't represent people, yeah we know, we can't change that. <crosstalk> Have a plan for that <laugh> Yeah but we have to get to power first. What I'm saying is, the only way to change it, is to win, so we have to figure out a way to win these states, just so people know, so we have, it looks like the republicans are gonna end up with 54 seats in the senate when all is said and done right? Or 53. 54. I don't do math. So in 2020, the possible targets are, Corey Gardner in Colorado, Joni Ernst in Iowa, Thom Tillis in North Carolina, we have McCain's seat which is gonna be up, so another open seat in Arizona. And Susan Collins in May. We also are defending Doug John's seat in Alabama so that's gonna be really really tough. Really really tough. So that means, like you said, we have to almost run the table in those seats. So we have to be very careful and think really hard about the candidates we put forth in those states because as we saw last night, candidate quality really matters and it matters most in states that are on the razors edge like that demographically. Right I think we need to so I think I think there's two questions. One is how do we have a chance in some of these red states um and the other is how do we field candidates that can win in Florida and Arizona because there's a there's a longer term challenge in places like Missouri, uh, but there's a, we should really… You have a longer term challenges. Err. But no that's the point. So I think we should ask the the candidate question right? The tactical questions about what happened in Arizona, what happened in Florida but one thing that I'm thinking about is the fact that in Missouri, Missouri came out really hard for a pro union uh ballot initiative recently. We have in very red states where we don't believe democratic senate candidates can compete. We're passing medicaid expansion, we are passing liberal policy and so I think one thing that it is gonna be that is a bigger harder question is, how how can we get democratic politics to be as appealing to people as liberal politics once the democratic label has been removed. A And I don't think what the media will do, because this is what they do. They'll make it all ideological. Right? It'll be it's the ideological you know part of the candidate. What do they believe? Are they too far to the left, or the centrists. A whole bunch of you know, true centrists lost in these races <inaudible>. Phil Bredesen was supposed to be the one in Tennessee who knows his state so well because he was an a certainly popular governor in the 90's. Went down to an 11 point defeat.bYou can't get more centrist than Phil Bredesen unless you are republican. Right. So I don't think the answer necessarily is ideological about who we nominate in these states. Well that you get both answers out of this right? You have Joe Mansion winning. You have Bredesen losing, you have John Tester winning, you have Clare McCaskill losing right? You know you have, so there's no one is going to be able to come up with a simple sentence to describe the ideological takeaway from this from this night. Yeah and I also think that you know Maryland and Massachusets are interesting examples. In Maryland you have Larry Hogan who was reelected overwhelmingly as governor. Charlie Baker in Massachusets I wildly popular so in in some of these liberal bastions, you do see, uh they like republican governors. They like divided leadership for some reason. Massachusets we have forever. Until I mean maybe we can learn something from them. I do think when you look at your 2020 map, like Iowa feels doable to me again. It didn't before last night. Uh Maine feels very doable. Arizona, with the right person, Yeah. We can give it a shot. But uh, you're right. Candidate quality is everything. Let's talk about it. Why why do we think Kirsten Cinema, she came really close and of course we should say, Cinema is not conceded yet. I think Martha McSally was ugh, the republicans, republican establishment would tell you that she was like their favorite candidate. All the cucks. <laugh> Cucks love Martha McSally. Uh, you know she's going to Washington, she's gonna be part of that club. Um, I thought she was pretty sloppy with the healthcare answer and the previous conditioning stuff. I think that's probably why Kirsten Cinema kept it close. But do we think, uh, what do you think Dan? What do you think happened in Arizona? I don't know. <laugh> <laugh> I mean I think we have to we have to see more data about that state. Yeah. But what I think the question around Kirsten Cinema was was she exciting enough to turn out enough, first time voters or periodic voters in Arizona because Arizona, it has a large population of potential voters and the only way that democrats can win, it's a very polarized state demographically, you have a lot of older white voters, it's why republicans have done so well there for so long. It but it has been changing demographically over time. But we have not had the success of taking the new residents, new people of age into the electorate and turn them into voters yet. Now it is worth noting that, even in our losses, democrats did better in those races, then they have in a very long time. Yeah. And there is something, if you're trying to just extract some silver linings from those dark clouds, there is a, we've been talking about Arizona moving blue for awhile. mm-hmm <affirmative> You see some evidence that that is a possibility for us based on the results of last night because… She's down by a point. Arizona is ground zero for the immigration battles in America. It is the place where Trumps caravan message, birthright citizens message general race baiting, white people fear mongering works very very well. It is a place that Jo Paya was from. It's where some of the most hardline immigration politicians have been from and so, you see you see, you're beginning to see the transition. The difference in Arizona is the green party candidate actually got a larger margin than Cinema. Oh yeah. 38,000 votes. Thanks Green Party. Who could have seen that coming? That never happened before. As always, appreciate yeah. Alright. Let's get to then the real heartbreakers. Our favorite three candidates, all four of us I'd say. Andrew Gilman in Florida, Stacey Abrams in Georgia and uh Beto o'Rourke in Texas. All lost last night. I should say actually, Stacey Abrams has not lost yet, she's not conceded because that could go to a run off. Tommy told me Bredeson was his favorite. <laugh> <laugh> I'm a Bob Benedez guy. <laugh> and I don't understand why we're not able to sit here, alright and talk about the fact that an inspirational young leader, the future of this party, Bob Benedez, <laugh> won in New Jersey against the odds, despite a lot of people saying he's a criminal alright? All morning Lovett's been saying give me some quo mo gro <inaudible> leadership. <laugh> <laugh> <laugh> <laugh> We've got quo mentum, we've got Mendez mentum alright? The future of the party is in the mid Atlantic. Quo money less problems. <laugh> we needed that. We needed that. So I will say like you know I have been when I was in my high anxiety two weeks before the election, it was following the early vote in Florida and all of Steve Chell's tweets and everything because I thought I loved Beto and I loved Abrams and I was <inaudible> them but I know how demographics work and sates work and I'm like they have an uphill climb. Gilman should have won Florida. Uh, all the polls had him ahead. It was probably the biggest polling miss of last night is Gilman in Florida where all the polls had him running in front of Nelson and he ran probably slightly behind Nelson. And I don't know what happened there but I'm really fucking mad at Florida. Yeah. I I don't know what happened either. I do think the more I read this morning, I think we all underestimated the drag of having an FBI investigation on your campaign uh. It's unprecedented thing, it never happened before in the history of time. <laugh> <laugh> How could we have missed that I mean, his former friends were dumping emails and there was all this talk about an FBI informant and these, like I like last night we were all watching the results come in, we were like how the hell is the governors race lagging the senate race and maybe that's something you can point to. I think yeah we we don't have enough information yet. We we may never. Um, that certainly could be a factor. Race could certainly be a factor um, in you know if that's if it's true that he ran slightly behind Nelson, you know why is that? Or, ideology, he was further to the left than Nelson. We don't, all three possible factors, we don't know which one it is. All I know is… Or a combination. Or a combination. Yeah. Is I fucking love Andrew Gilman. I love Andrew Gilman. I still love Andrew Gilman. He is young, we are gonna hear from him again, and we're just we're just fortunate that we got to see him run. Like he he is great. Amazing. And I think even though he lost, there are lessons to be learned for democrats and how you run races. And also we're about to watch Florida, uh, expand voting rights to over a million people uh, which is not just a morally good thing, it is going to change the Florida electoral. I mean these are really really close. Hope so. We hope so right. We don't know. But but all those disenfranchised people having a chance to vote and hopefully participating might help um tilt the balance in a state that will continue to be very close. And on Stacey Abrams you know we were here pretty late last night, and watching her speech last night, it was maybe the most inspiring speech of the whole night. For sure. And people people here couldn't media, people were cheering, clapping, and out of their seats. It was it was fantastic. That race may be headed for a run off um, she has not conceded yet. There are something like 80, 80,000 plus ballots out. If she reduces the margin by about 20,000 votes, camp goes under 50% and we are headed to a runoff in Georgia. And everyone gets to, but this, important point, not a recount, a runoff. A runoff. New race yep. We're having another election. A new race that Kemp can try to steal. And a well a new race in a new environment where courts have overruled some of Kemps decision to purge voter roles. So we're gonna have another few weeks to get some of those people who were denied the right to vote the chance to show up at the polls. And we gotta go all in on helping her if that happens. We'll see you in Atlanta if that happens. Um, alright, and to the final candidate, let's talk about Beto. Beto. Beto O'Rourke who lost by 2.6% points to Ted Cruz. Something like, 4,050,000 votes, uh highest vote total of any democrat in Texas state wide and as long as we can remember, highest percentage as long as we can remember. Organize the state. Win some house races for us. Yep, lifted a lot of votes. Is helping changing. <crosstalk> calling all red um, fantastic candidates both of them. Certainly lifted by Beto O'Rourke. 11 seats in the Texas house. 11 seats in the Texas house and the judiciary they won some seats as well. Jeanna Ortiz, Jones came like a couple 100 of votes from beating Will Heard. Um, and and he inspired you know, just a whole bunch of people not just in Texas but all over the country to get involved in politics. And and that organization isn't going anywhere. That's still gonna be there and that's really important. Unless it moves to Iowa. <laugh> Beto O'Rourke ran the best race he could have possibly run, I mean, short of winning. He ran a hell of a good race. He inspired millions of people, he exceeded all turnout expectations and I I say that not because I give a shit about moral victories, I don't. I want wins and losses just like everybody else does. But there was this sneering, bullshit conventional wisdom coming out of Washington, embodied in a political story called, did Beto blow it, that was released two days before the election day that seemed to suggest that because Beto didn't have a pollster, because he didn't uh poll test his position on the NFL kneeling question, and all this nonsense, that he was somehow a bad candidate. That what we need to do was tact to the center like Phil Bredesen, well, Phil Bredesen got his ass handed to him and Beto O'Rourke, kept it real tight in a very very red state. So I want to see more Beto O'Rourke like candidates out there who, they don't have to be like super liberal, that's not what I'm saying. I want you to say what you think and mean it and not worry about the politics of these, your statements in advance. That's what we want. Beto O'Rourke. Beto O'Rourke, in Texas, came closer than Clara McCaskill, Joe Donnelly, Heidi Heitkamp, Phil Bredesen. Richard Cordray. Richard Cordray and so did Stacy Abrams and so did Andrew Gilman. Just so everyone knows. Um, and look the the Beto the Beto mockery comes from the most obvious fucking suspects, which are the most cynical reporters in D.C. who think they fucking know everything and don't. And establishment republicans who are jealous that we have inspiring candidates in our party and they do not. Which is what they used to do to Barack Obama. we heard all the same stuff about Barack Obama in '07 '08 from the same cynical D.C. reporters and the same establishment republicans. And the reason they mock it, is because they don't want us to have those candidates because they are afraid that they will win. That's why they mock it. Last night, in a lot of ways, went the expected route right? You know we we thought maybe there's a chance we could win these center races. We thought maybe Stacey Abrams has a chance, and maybe she still does. We thought maybe Beto has a chance. We were more hopeful about Gilman, but we won the house which was what our focus was, which was what what we believe is the most important thing. I believe going into election night, that Andrew Gilman, Beto O'Rourke, Stacey Abrams, that they represented the future of the democratic party and that is true win or lose. Yeah. We we have plenty of time to talk about 2020 in the coming weeks and months, but I will say, you watch Beto O'Rourke's speech last night. You watch Stacey Abrams, you watch Andrew Gilman and you see that the movement they've inspired and the people they've inspired and then you tell me that that's not what we need in 2020, here's the deal, I hope all three of them run for president in 2020 alright? I really do. If they don't, other 2020 candidates, look at them, that is the bar, and you have to meet that bar. We are not accepting anything less. <laugh> we want inspiring candidates like that who can both excite the base, and reach out to non voters and build a movement and get people excited about politics again. And if you cannot get on that level, on Beto O'Rourke's level or Stacey Abrams level, or Andrew Gilman's level, you have to think twice about running for president, and you have to think hard about your campaign. That that's what I'll say about that. I would add a couple points on this. One is that there was a lot of criticism from the cynical reporters saying why did you nominate these these liberals. These died in the wool progressives in these conservative states. Those liberals did better than all of the centras vanilla candidates we have run in those states in recent years, and they did better with independents. They were able to have the magic formula of exciting, Beto won independents 50 to 47 in Texas. Yes. Won them. And if, just to make a Beto for president point which doing that well with independents, in Texas, if you were to, if you were to model that performance, he would win 350 electoral votes. If he did that across the country. He won independents by 3, he won 7% of republicans, and uh, there were 23% in Texas were new voters and he won them by you know 30 points or something like that. And that's how you get to within 2 1 / 2 points of Ted Cruz in Texas. But the way the Washington media judges it, is what you do is you live up the ass of Ted Cruz's main consultant for a month <laugh> and then you write a piece. It it's just a warning to everyone, like, we're gonna see more of this as we get closer to 2020, there's gonna be all this punditry, there's all, they all base it off of ideology. All they can think about is someone centrist or someone left. Someone too in the middle or, and it's all garbage. Like, look for the candidate who you, in your gut tells you, will inspire a movement of American's from all walks of life to get out there, work their asses off and go to the polls. Look for that candidate. I'd also say too that one thing that Beto, Gilman and Stacey Abrams have in common, is they are inspirational, they are hopeful. They are positive sounding, yet they agenda is something that speaks… Yes yes. To that kind of working class roots of the democratic party and the the values of independent voters who've maybe gone to Bernie in the past, who are the kind of people who are coming out in red states to vote for medicaid expansion to vote for pro union <crosstalk>. Stacey Abrams whole campaign was about medicaid expansion. Yeah. She talked about it every where she went. So there is there is this interplay between the the quality of the candidates and the authenticity they bring to the table and their ability to relate to uh uh a broad ideological spectrum of voters and their willingness to advocate for simple working class politics. Everyone looked at Gilman's campaign and said oh he took on race really well, he handled it really well, but Gilman's message every single day was about the economy. Beto's message, every single day, was about the economy. These people had a populace economic message and a broad political appeal that was inspiring from people of all walks of life. That is the key. Pod Saves America is brought to you from Blue Apron. Smokey chicken and sweet potato bake. Hot Italian sausage pizza, beef and broccoli and <laugh>. These all feel like two entrees smushed together. Interesting typo there. Beef and broccoli and cumin spice sauce. Those are just some of the features. I like I like it when they add the cumin to it. These are just some of the featured meals this month at Blue Apron. I hate cumin. Blue Apron's mission is to make incredible home cooking accessible to everyone. My friend Elliot used to add cumin to things and I fucking hated it. You chose chef designed recipes. Blue Apron delivers fresh, seasonally inspired ingredients, allowing you to cook incredible meals in as little as 20 minutes. The taste of Fall. <laugh> Let Blue Apron do the meal prep for you. Blue Apron offers a range of recipes bursting with flavor. Whether you're looking for quick and easy meals or full culinary cooking experience, Blue Apron let's you chose from a range of recipes, options, like homestlye beef medallions and maple pan sauce. Get out of your cooking <crosstalk> Jon. New recipes. Do you think that uh, they would uh past muster with Paul Hollywood and Mary Berry? What? Baking show. <laugh> Um. I never know what their names are. Well let's keep going. The British one? Yes. It's wonderful. So check out this weeks menu and get your first three meals free at blueapron.com/crooked. That's blueapron.com/crooked to get your first three meals free. Free. Blue Apron, a better way to cook, bakers, your time is up. What they say? <laugh> Pod Saves America is brought to you by the upcoming film the Front Runner. From Oscar nominated director Jason Reitman, who brought us Thank you for Smoking, Juno and Up in the air. The Front Runner is based on the shocking true events that changed the path of a nation. Oscar nominee Hugh Jackman plays Gary Hart, the charismatic politician and overwhelming front runner for the 1988 presidential election. Senator Hart led George H.W. Bush in the polls by 13 points. Everyone was certain he would win, and then the world as we know it changed. How. Private scandal became front page headlines for the first time. And he really fucking mishandled it. The Front Runner is about, that's your opinion. The Front Runner is about the turning point in American history when privacy ended. Sort of. And we, as a country, decided we have the right to know. Written by Matt Bai and Jay Carson, this is the scandal and the story that started it all. Democracy isn't a spectator sport. Get involved and get your tickets to see The Front Runner. Text front runner to 26797. Message and data rates may apply. Pod saves America, is brought to you by the cash app. Brought to you by the Cash app. This one says cash app any and all drama for the listeners. That's their note for us. What have we got? What are we cooking up here? I mean it is, it's after the election so who knows? We don't know man. Are we excited are we not? Look I feel like we… We should be um… Left it all on the field. Yeah we should be we should be pundits analyzing the election without knowing the results. <inaudible> look both sides had some ups and downs. We saw some incredible turnout all over the map and the nation is divided for sure. Very fine voters. Look, what are they gonna do with these results? I think it would be something like um, one thing we've learned tonight is the American people are angry And they are voting. And they are voting. <laugh> <laugh> women. Women voted. We saw a lot of women voting today, but also men. <laugh> what's clear looking at the results is uh, one thing you cannot deny, the American people are divided and Donald Trump is still going to be the president. <sigh> Anyway, the cash app. The cash app. It's the fastest and easiest way to pay people back. If you download the cash app for the first time, which, would be wonderful. One way you know that we're doing this before the election is that the three of us have fully run out of words. We have been… There's no more words to say guys. I'm just refreshing the upshot. All we want to do. I did a recorded pod with Dan this morning. All I want to do is shout vote at the top of my lungs. Vote. <crosstalk> just vote. Now we're not saying it anymore it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I mean vote next time for sure, even if we won or whatever. Municipal elections. Either way vote. The one nice thing about this being an election is it's time for the infighting. <laugh> Pod Save is the code. $5 to you, $5 goes to world central kitchen um, you know that's it. That's all we have to say. Alright, now to bring us back down to Earth, let's talk about Donald Trump's press conference today, which was followed by Donald Trump firing Jeff Sessions. First of all let's talk about the press conference. Was he a little more unhinged than usual? He seemed a little sadder than usual. <laugh> I thought he would pretend to be a little more upbeat than he was. Testy. Yeah he came out really sad and and honestly he only got excited when when a bunch of reporters kind of got in his face and then he got all fired up. He took energy from them. He got excited, he got his groove back because CNN pissed him off, so maybe. Does that make <crosstalk> Tay Diggs? <laugh> oh my God. He ran, he decided to dance on the graves of republicans who had lost and who didn't show sufficient fulty to him, including Neil Love, congress woman out of Utah who's race hasn't been called yet, which is just so crazy. Yeah he sounded like a mob boss up there. He started listing off republican candidates who lost and said, didn't want to give me the embrace. Forget about it. Didn't embrace me. Didn't want to embrace. The way the press reacted to it, not in the room, the coverage of it, also sort of bespeaks their yearning for the normalcy of politics that left us two years ago where in the press conference Trump did, he like just threw out there like of course I'd work with the democrats on things, and I called Nancy Pelosi last night. But that came three minutes after he said that if they subpoena me, I'm going to sick the senate to investigate them in vindictive witch hunts and the New York Times news alert was Trump pledges to work with democrats. <laugh> <laugh> I know I know I know. Also, it it's also a reminder of how many baked in lies they just accept. Like he's still saying two years later that he is under audit. That his taxes are being audited and thus he can't release them. One, how long do audits take. Two, you're the president of the United States, could you not expedite them? Three, of course you can release them, it's a lie. But we, they accept this. No one pushes back on this substance or ask for commitment or anything else. They still, two years in, they have not figured out how to deal with him and I realize it is a very difficult task. I don't know that I would be able to either. There's no, yeah there's no perfect question where the tax returns explode out of his pockets. <laugh> <laugh> But somehow they get it wrong on both sides where they um, they're like baited into this whole thing about a fight about Donald Trump, reporters versus Donald Trump and then that becomes the headline, which is what he wants. And yet, when he like lies and does his caravan shit, they all just sort of play it and hear it and you know you know. It's a hard thing right? It's a little bit like you're pulling into a parking spot, and Donald Trump comes in and swings in and stops you from getting to the parking spot and it's your fucking parking spot. And then he gets out of the car and is like you're in my fucking spot, get the fuck out of my parking spot, I was here first and you have a choice right? You can either rise to his level to fight back, or give in in some way and there's no good option. There's no good option because Yeah. Because you know, he he he drags you down to his level and it's happened to politicians, it's happened to the press uh, it's one of the great challenges to um, Shopping at Waymans. <laugh> Shopping at Waymans. <laugh> Okay so he at the press conference as he's asked, is Jeff Sessions job safe, he says I don't want to answer that right now, maybe in a little bit. <laugh> <laugh> that's so funny. And then as soon as the press conference ends, this is where the laughter stops because we get a news alert that he has asked Jeff Sessions to resign, um, Matthew Whitaker, who was Jeff Sessions chief of staff now becomes the acting attorney geneal, this also means that Rob Rosenstein is no longer in charge of the Russian investigation, the only reason he was is because Sessions recused himself. Now that Sessions is gone, Whitaker can take over. Um, what, what who is Matthew Whitaker and and what does this mean for the Russian investigation? It's the end of the Russian investigation as we know it. Matthew Whitaker is was a U.S. attorney in Iowa. He is a republican political operative, he was a CNN commentator who wrote in up ed, basically giving Trump a play book to end the Russian investigation before became Jeff Sessions chief of staff. The New York Times had an article a few months ago which we should have seen this coming, about how Trump loved Whitaker and Whitaker had been hanging out in the oval office for months. and we worked in the White House. It is very very strange for the President of the United States to have a meeting with the chief of staff of any cabinet secretary, let alone the department of justice which you are supposed to have a hands off relationship with. So the fix is in here. And what this means, Yeah to say the least. Yeah, what this means is that Bob Muller needs Donald Trump's chosen political hacks permission to file an indictment of Donald Trump Jr. He needs to release his report, to subpoena Roger Stone. Any move that he has to make, he has to ask Trump's hand picked successor to Sessions. This is a disaster. And the only thing that the rule of law this country has going for it right now if the democrats start the house. And so Adam Shiff can reopen the Russian investigation, can use the subpoena power he has to continue this going if the Russian investigation as we know it, ends today. Well you can also add the the house house having the subpoena power also gives them the ability to uh, subpoena anyone involved in the quashing of the investigations. You can also, it creates a little bit of a higher threshold for them to act because they know that anything they do will end up in front of a senate comity and probably a public senate comity. The other thing we don't know, is we don't know what Robert Muller did or didn't do to to protect himself in his investigation. mm-hmm <affirmative> Um, from this eventuality. We really just we don't know what's already we don't we don't know uh, we just we know so little and we've been months and months behind Muller for basically the entire time he's been special counsel. Yeah. If Robert Muller has a draft of his report sitting in a desk drawer somewhere, I believe that Adam Shiff can subpoena that. Now, the Trump justice department can refuse to comply with that subpoena, and then that would go to a court. <crosstalk> Brett Kavanaugh, exacting his partisan revenge on America. Which he promised to do in front of the entire country during his hearing. So, fuck you everyone who says democrats overplayed their hands because that's the guy that's gonna be on the supreme court <crosstalk> Here's what we need to do. Everyone that gave to the Peter Struck go fund me, we set up a new go fund me. We're gonna get Bob Muller a photo copier and he's gonna get going and print these fucking things an distribute them all over town. There's also one other one other defense which is people inside the justice department. Uh, and… Our friend Matt <crosstalk> People with integrity inside the justice department being willing to either leak or resign tell their story uh so you know, this is a very very bad. This is a precarious moment. It's precious moment, I think no one knows how it will turn out. But it would it would be a devastating moment had you all not worked so hard to take the house back last night because now we have the house. Which is the which is a level of power that we did not have a couple days ago. Yeah it it is a hell of a lot easier to shut down the Russian investigation of the department of justice if they don't have to worry about Devin Munez. We're headed into some interesting times people. Alright, well, anything else? Anyone got any closing thoughts on the election? We should say thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I want to say thank you to all of you who have listened and decided to go out and knock on doors and volunteered and donated to candidates and run yourselves, I know there's a lot of candidates you know listening too for state legislatures and other places, I'm just so proud of everyone and and it's the best part of our days is when you guys you know have tweeted pictures at us that you're you know knocking on doors and it's great. Yeah also, just a quick thank you to our team here. I don't want to start, I don't want to start naming names because you inevitably leave somebody out, but crooked media is about 25 people. Uh and they, people on our team built the vote saves America website uh that serviced like half a million people used it to find a sample ballot. 200,000 people pledged to devote on this sight. Uh I think 20,000 volunteer shifts were signed up uh through the site. So like very small handful of people were working their asses off. Like camp Presidential campaign hours. Presidential campaign hours because we thought, they thought it was good for democracy and it would be useful for you guys so thank you to our team and thank you to you all for using it and and and getting out there. Tommy would regularly yell at our staff it's time to go home. Yeah it's time to go home. Tanya, Shaniqua, EJ, go home. <laugh> Nikki. It's it's also, we focused on the races in California because we're out here, and one thing we woke up to this morning was people like Katy Hill ahead by a tiny bit, people like Harley Ruda, ahead by a tiny bit. A couple other races, Mike Lovin ahead by a little bit, other races really really close. We have a chance of eking out. Everybody who sort of got involved here in California, and got involved in the crooked eight, you can really be proud that you helped win some races because without that energy I think it's pretty clear that we would not have won those races. Lucy McBath is sitting there in in Atlanta just a couple hundred votes ahead of Gary Handle. A couple of thousand votes. Tony Evers is governor of Wisconsin by you know, these were, we won so many races by the slimest of margins and in those races, you all made the difference and now you know we wake up and we had some good wins and we had some tough losses and the fight continues. Everyone out there who ran, who canvased, who made phone calls, who gave $5 and $10 where they could, saved democracy. Like their wait is not done yet, but this, we didn't get through Tuesday. We had a close call. Yeah Tues, Tuesday like we have more work to do in 2020, take the weekend off, we gotta go back and we gotta win more senate seats. Win more governorships and take the White House back, but all of that, everything we care about would be at risk had we not taken the house back last night. This has been a really hard two years and you know I say that a lot but I I think in all the frenetic coverage and all the angst and all the news and the endless Trump shit and the endless disappointments, you can lose sight of the fact that all of that noise beneath it is just a real sense of fear and a sense that we didn't know our country that we lost our ability to have a say in our democracy, and I'm just so proud that we were part of taking that back. I'm proud of everybody that participated just because we woke up today with a win and it's good to know what it feels like to win and I I know we needed it and we got it and um, that's really exciting. Alright, well uh, we'll talk to you next week. Go ahead and take the weekend off and then… And then Monday, 2020 and fighting baby. Let's do this! No Monday Stacey Abrams run off hopefully hopefully. Hopefully hopefully. Tuesday? 2020? When does the infighting start Tommy? I want to do some infighting. It's already begun. Alright, we'll talk to you later. Bye everyone. Bye guys. Bye. 

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+The presenting sponsor of Pod Save America is ZipRecruiter. If one out of every 100 voters had shifted their vote in the last presidential election we would have a different president. Thanks, ZipRecruiter, for just… Ouch. crushing us. So if you're thinking that voting this week doesn't matter, well, that's not smart. Agreed. It's not smart. You know what else isn't smart? Job boards that overwhelm you with tons of the wrong resumes. That transition was priceless. Seamless. Seamless. Bothless. You know what is smart? What? Using ZipRecruiter.com/Crooked to get qualified candidates fast. Hey, I got an application here for a private detective. Uh, it says, uh, J. Wall. <laugh> That's for like next Monday. Unlike other job sites ZipRecruiter doesn't wait for candidates to find you. It finds them for you. Their powerful matching technology scans thousands of resumes and identifies people with the right skills, education, and experience for your job, and actively invites them to apply. No more pouring through the wrong resumes. There's less waiting and more hiring. It's no wonder that ZipRecruiter is rated number one by employers in the US. That's from hiring sites on Trustpilot with over 1000 reviews, so you know it's good. Trustpilot. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. And right now is a great time to try ZipRecruiter for free. Simply go to ZipRecruiter.com/crooked. That's ZipRecruiter.com/crooked. Crooked. One more time for the people in back. ZipRecruiter.com/crooked. There you go. Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Jon Lovett. Just vote. <laugh> That's Tommy Vietor. Hey. Hello. Uh, we are coming to you today from our brand new studio, guys. Very nice. We- we've had a small studio in the new offices for quite a while, and the new one is now built, and it is incredible. You're- you're listening to this, but you can… <laugh> You're gonna have to trust us. You're gonna have to look at the live stream. Shame we finished it right before we get shut down like a Turkish opposition newspaper. <laugh> Later in the pod you'll hear from Colin Allred, a Democratic candidate running for a congressional seat in Texas that we hope to flip tomorrow. Tomorrow. Because tomorrow is election day. Or today if you're listening to this on Tuesday. That's true too. Um, Erin Ryan subbed for Jon Lovett this past week, completing her stint as a guest host on Lovett or Leave It. Three cheers for Erin and Guy Brano. Guy and Erin did an awesome job hosting Lovett or Leave It while I was gone. It's a machine. It can run without me. That's the dream. We had some awesome episodes, and I'm back on Thursday with an after-election special, Win, Lose, or Draw. <laugh> So, uh, check that out. Another programming note. We will be live streaming a Vote: Save America 2018 election special tomorrow night right here at Crooked headquarters. Pfeiffer will be here too. The whole crew. Everyone in the great Los Angeles area who wants to come for emotional support… <laugh> Don't put that out there. <laugh> Uh, we will all be here. We'll also be doing a wrap-up pod, all for of us, on Wednesday afternoon that will be out Wednesday night. What will it say? Who knows? If you want to watch the live stream tomorrow night it is YouTube.com/CrookedMedia. Check it out. Check it out. Trying to get those YouTube subs for Elijah. Wall to wall coverage coming to you live from Crooked Election HQ. We have a countdown clock. It's election night in America. I don't know what they say… Happening now. on the- on the other networks. Anyway. All right. Tomorrow's election day. As you all know we're out of the prediction business. We also try to stay away from too much horse race coverage. But I thought- That's all that's left. <crosstalk> But that's all that's… Exactly. Yeah, I know. That is all that left. That's all that's left, so we're gonna indulge a little bit of it today. I thought it would be useful to start by talking a little bit about the state of the race in order for people to understand where we are and how we got here. The final polling averages give the Democrats a seven- to eight-point lead on the generic ballot. Maybe nine. Um, that would be on the bigger mid-term margins either party's ever had. For example, when the Republicans won by 6.8% in 2010 they picked up 63 seats. Uh, in 2006 a seven-point win gave the Democrats 31 seats. And yet, despite that, in this election Republicans are heavily favored to keep the Senate and maybe even gain seats there. And while Democrats are heavily favored to win the House, the low end of the various projections have us picking up 20 -something seats, when we need 23. So it feels really close. Why is that? Who wants to take a stab? Gerrymandering. Yeah, they're- We're a divided country. That's good. And the House map shouldn't be so divided and difficult, but it has been gerrymandered to hell, so we're fighting an uphill battle. Yeah. That is the truth. Now, I say that not as an excuse. We need to win 23 or moral victories mean nothing. But it's- it's important when people are assessing what this means for Trumpism, because there is a concern that if we pick up the House and Republicans hang onto the Senate or pick up seats in the Senate, it'll be like, well, mixed bag on Trumpism. The reality is the national polls, the majority of the country is not pleased with the way he's running the country. They don't like, uh, a campaign that is entirely built on racism. They want people to talk about healthcare and things they actually care about, and so just some context. Yeah. And it's- it is also more than just gerrymandering. It is something unique to this moment. One of the things that was fascinating… Uh, Jon, I saw you Tweeting about this yesterday. The- the Nate Cohn… Upshot completed their many real time polls, uh, that- that got, uh… got fish like you on the hook. You know? <laugh> Look, maybe Tommy and I were texting back and forth about the leads changing. Maybe not. But, um- Maybe we were reading them aloud in the car in real time. <laugh> One thing that is striking is just how many races are polling at one or two points. Yeah. Like if there is going to be a wave, it is going to be very, very wide and very, very shallow, and it will either be high enough to pick up a huge number of seats. Or if it is just a little too shallow we will come close in a ton of districts we would've needed to win. So on top of the built-in advantage Republicans have because of gerrymandering there's also just this fact of the electorate right now. I don't know if… You know, we- we won't know what it looks like 'til after it's done. But it's almost like these two things sort of meeting this sort of changing country of people that want to reject Trump in the majority, plus this… the Trump base coming out and being energized and kind of meeting in the middle and creating weather all across the country, um, in this- in this- in this specific kind of transitional period between Trump's older, whiter based and the coalition we've been waiting to show up, uh, since Barack Obama left us here alone. Just to give you an idea of this House map here, you can easily count about 16 to 17 pick-ups for Democrats. But then, like you were saying, Lovett, to get from 17 to 23 you have a ton of races in Republican territory. There are almost no races being fought on Democrat territory. And most of these races are like one- to two-point races. A lot of these places… um, some places voted for Clinton that have Republicans in them. We talked about those districts. But those are probably the… some of the easiest ones to go. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Most of this election is being fought in Republican districts that went for Trump. <laugh> Now, some of them might have gone for Obama in 2012, but some of them haven't sent a Democratic member to Congress for years. For a decade. Like Alaska. Like Alaska. But like, for example, one of the races we've been looking at, um, is Abigail Spanberger in the Virginia 7th running against Dave Brat. And she's- she's a great candidate. It's been very competitive, very close. I was looking the other day because I'm like, Oh, I wonder… You know, I wonder when's the last time someone, a Democrat went to Congress here? Well, not for a very long time. But also, Ralph Northam, when he went on to a nine-point victory in Virginia in just 2017, lost that district by four points. mm-hmm <affirmative>. And yet Spanberger is still competitive in that. So just so people have an idea of what an uphill climb this is… <laugh> And if Democrats… even if Democrats eek out a majority by 23, 24, 25 seats, it is an enormous accomplishment because it means that they won seats in deep red Republican territory. Yes. <laugh> Also a good reminder, by the way, that the Northam polls were off by a few points. And because all of these races are so tight, the polling error is… feels almost more important… Yeah. as we head into… Totally. tomorrow, than normal. Yeah. And I will say too, the last time the Democrats had a wave election in the House was 2006, and the environment was different then. Right? It was George Bush's second term. His approval rating was around 30 -something percent. The Iraq War had been raging for a couple years. Uh, Katrina had just happened. There was… Every day there were stories about Republican corruption. So even that was a better environment. <laugh> It's a slog. It's a slog. It's a slog. It's also… Peter Hamby wrote a piece about how pundits don't know anything, and it was a good piece. This is a unique election. It's the only time Donald Trump has been President during a mid-term election. Yeah. And there's all these, uh, contradictory indicators. There's an economy that's doing well. There is a president who is unpopular, but not as unpopular as someone like George W. Bush. There is a lot of dissatisfaction with the direction of the country, yet the party in power is viewed as being better on the economy than the party trying to defeat them. So there's a lot of confusing signs out there. If- if- if you were to just come into this race without all the context of how polarizing and terrible Donald Trump is you'd be saying, Wow, it seems impossible for Democrats… Right. to- to win this election. Look at all the- the- the basic political science 101 stuff that's going up against 'em. Not just gerrymandering, but the concentration of Democrats in the cities, the way the economy is going, and so much else. Well, let's talk about the Senate map, which is even tougher. Why is the Senate map so tricky for Democrats? I mean it's just a bad year. Yeah. It's just the worst year in a century. Bad states. We are competing for seats in I mean we're talking about Montana. We're talking about Missouri. We're talking about North Dakota. Texas. We're talking about West Virginia. We're talking about Texas. We are trying to keep seats in the purple-y red states like Arizona or the purple-y blue states like Nevada. So it's just a combination of the inherent disadvantages Democrats now have in the Senate, combined with the fact that these are just the 32 that happen to be up, and they happen to be in parts of the country where we struggle. It is very important I think that, um, you know, the predictions are all over the place in the Senate, but every single Senate seat matters. And it matters for the long game too, which we haven't talked about. Because in 2020 it looks like Colorado is a target for us with Cory Gardner. And Maine is a target because of Susan Collins. Those are states that have been trending Democratic over the last couple years. Um, Iowa and North Carolina, Joni Ernst and Thom Tillis are both also maybe competitive for us. And then Doug Jones is gonna be up again in Alabama. mm-hmm <affirmative>. So if we end up with a 50 / 50 tie in the Senate after tonight, for example, and Mike Pren- Mike Pence is the tiebreaker and Republicans keep it, in 2020 because we still got 50 if we pick off Colorado or we pick off Maine, we have a Democratic president, suddenly we have a majority in the Senate and can confirm Supreme Court Justices. So it's actually a huge deal. You know, if we lose the Senate by one, by two, or by three, it's actually a- a big difference. Right, yeah. Yeah. And right, in the next two years it's- it's, uh, it's a digital thing, win or lose, but in the next four or six years we are trying to slowly claw our way back to a majority. So as Tommy mentioned, because Dems are favored to win the House and Republicans are favored to win the Senate, we're starting to see headlines like this one from the Wall Street Journal, A Test of Trump: Mid-terms could result in a mixed verdict. Would this scenario be a mixed verdict on Trump, a Republican-held Senate and a Democratic House? No. <laugh> It would not be a mixed verdict. If you lose the House, it's a big defeat of Trump. If you lose the house with a wildly gerrymandered House map it's a rebuke of Trump. If you lose… if we pick up any governor seats, it's a rebuke of Trump. Like Trumpism is- is on the ballot. Yeah. He declared it to be on the ballot. Just because the Senate races are all bright red states doesn't mean that somehow he… like he- he is setup to win in the Senate. Yeah. They have a huge structural advantage in the Senate. Places like Missouri and Texas and all the states we've already mentioned are tough races for Democrats period. But it is- it is- it's part of the reason why horse race coverage, uh, is so lacking, because the thing that doesn't get enough attention are structural differences, the map. Right? Like… Right. Miss- Missouri, Montana, West Vir… Donald Trump won West Virginia by 42 points. The fact that Joe Mansion is hanging on as a Democrat is crazy. <laugh> This is what frustrates me about this whole conversation… Not our conversation, like the whole conversation about, well, is this a rebuke of Trumpism or not? In 2010, when Barack Obama, uh, we held onto the Senate and we lost the House, it was seen as a huge rebuke of Obama. Huge rebuke. Huge rebuke. Shellacking. And rightly so. And rightly so. But- but the press covers, uh, voter suppression and gerrymandering, which is essentially voter suppression in some ways, as if it's just sort of a- a built-in feature of American democracy and not a long-term effort to completely pervert the way our democracy works. And that drives me a little bit crazy. Like voter suppression tactics in Georgia should be a much bigger story than a fucking caravan that is still 800 miles away and that we've been talking about for weeks. Yeah. But that is not how these things are covered. And- Well, and- and the Senate has a different problem, which is, um, less about gerrymandering than just- It's not at all about gerrymandering. Just hard states. Geograph… just geographic problems too. Well, and the fact that across the country that in races that are gonna be really close their efforts to suppress the vote are enough to swing an election. Right. And I- and I say this less for, you know, influencing the horse race coverage, which they're gonna do what they do. mm-hmm <affirmative>. But for all of you listening, right, like if- if we wake up on Wednesday and we win the House and we come short in the Senate, no one should feel like, you know, Democrats did poorly or What happened to this blue wave? Like you just- you gotta know how hard these states are. Yeah. And the reason these states are hard is because we are seeing a real realignment, uh, between the two parties right now that is based on education, uh, among white people. <laugh> Uh, and so college educated whites are moving in droves towards Democrats. Non-college educated whites, we have never been doing worse for… with them. Um, it is true… it is possible that in this election, we may make up a lot of ground among non-college whites in the Midwest. The very place that lost Hillary the election we are seeing Democrats do very well, especially in governors races in Ohio, in Wisconsin, in Michigan. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Gretchen Witmer's… Yeah. on her way to a… Romping. hopefully a pretty big win. Knock on wood. Knock on wood. Um, and so, you know, we could make a lot of ground in these Midwestern states that have traditional… and Pennsylvania… that have… mm-hmm <affirmative>. traditionally gone to Democrats. But the Senate, most of the Senate map is not in this. I mean like if you had told us a year ago we'd be sitting here and Sharod Brown would be on his way to victory, and Tommy Baldwin in Wisconsin would be on her way to victory, people would say, That's crazy. Trump won those states. Or that I would even know who was running in Texas. Right. <laugh> Exactly. Right. Bob Casey in Pennsylvania, Tom Wolf, the governor there. Like they're all doing… Yeah. fantastic in these states that we lost. But Missouri… Tough. Montana… Tough. Indiana. I mean these are really tough states. Also… North Dakota. Also, the narrative that the press, the political press used to describe the outcome of the election doesn't really matter at all. If- if there's a bunch of stories- Once we get the gavel in the house. Yes. <laugh> That's what I was about to say. By one seat. By one seat. Yeah, that's right. Look, here's the thing. If there are a bunch of stories on Tuesday or on Wednesday or Thursday… By the way, I want to once again reiterate, we make up- may wake- wake up on Wednesday having won fucking nothing, wishing, wishing we could go back in time and- and appreciate how lucky we would've been to have a narrative <crosstalk> Wake up and we're like, What? Mike Levin's the only one going to Congress? <laugh> It's- it's minority leader Mike Levin? No <crosstalk> Dark humor. Dark humor, guys. But- but- but what I was gonna say is the narrative doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. No, it does. It matters a lot. It matters a lot. When Dave Brat beat Eric Canter the narrative coming out of that was that it was all about immigration, and that scuttled the hopes for immigration reform for a long time. And people that have dug deep into what actually happened in that race… It was a Virginia Congressional race primary… uh, have figured out after the fact that it was really not about immigration. But like these things can set narrative. They can- they can- they can give Republicans the courage or not to say Trumpism is bullshit, or at least that Trumpism won't work for me. I think that's a good point. Winning the House means that we have power for the next two years, and there's nothing that DC press core can say about what the verdict meant to change the fact that we will have control of these committees, that we will have the speakership, that we will have power and a seat at the table. That's all that I'm saying. And I'm not arguing about that, but I'm saying that the narrative coming out of these elections really does matter. And I think… like this is why, you know, pre- 2016 when we were wildly wrong but everyone wanted not just to beat Trump, but to rebuke Trumpism. Because you had the 2012 election and the after action report about being more inclusive and reaching out to Latinos and African-Americans. And that was fully rebuked by the Trump win, and we've seen the Republican party go full MAGA right-wing crazy. Pod Save America is brought to you by Comedy Central's The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. With the mid-term elections in full swing and with America's sanity hanging in the balance, let Trevor Noah and the world's fakest news team try to make sense of all the issues that keep you up at night. Every election needs a hero. They'll let you know when they find one. The Daily Show with Trevor Noah, weeknights at 11 / 10 central, only on Comedy Central. 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Discover how much Neanderthal DNA you inherited, which is the burning question on everyone's mind. It is. Opt in and connect with- I think I have a fair amount. I have a very pronounced brow. Opt in and connect with DNA relatives and find other 23 and Me customers who share your DNA and ancestors. It's easy to do. People think the Neanderthals looked like, uh, those Larson cartoons, but they didn't. If you saw a Neanderthal on the subway you wouldn't even like, uh… What? You wouldn't… You would just be like, There goes a kinda, you know… Oh. What? What? Stocky person. Can you believe this guy looks like Jonah, Princess Caroline's assistant? <laugh> He's got the man bun. I'm telling you, you could see a- you could see a Neanderthal on the train and be like, That's a cool guy… or girl. So now you're wondering… It's 2018. Neanderthal's can be women. How do I find this out? What should I do? You simply spit into the tube provided in your 23 and Me kit, register your sample to your personal 23 and Me account. This got very personal. Spit into a tube, Don. Spit into a tube, and in a few weeks receive your personalized online report. Cool. Now through Thanksgiving, 23 and Me ancestry service kits are only $49 per kit when you buy two or more kits. That's 50% off the regular kit price of $99. Order your 23 and Me ancestry service kit at 23andMe.com/crooked. <crosstalk> Jon. Jon, did you know that, uh, they don't charge extra if they find you extra siblings? Those are free. Wow. So that's 50% and all siblings free. That's the number 23andMe.com/crooked. Crooked. Get spitting today. Is that a good… do you think that? <laugh> Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Spit your feelings. We're gonna move onto the closing arguments both parties have been making. So for the last month or so, Trump has been churning out even more explicitly racist and xenophobic lies, more than usual. Uh, as summarized by the Washington Post in their piece on Sunday night, Trump is claiming that Democrats want to erase the nation's borders and provide sanctuaries to drug dealers, human traffickers, and MS-13 killers, unleashing a wave of violent crime that endangers families everywhere. Good for the Washington Post… Yeah. for saying it like it is. And yet, there's a Politico story that also, uh, went online last night that says this… mm-hmm <affirmative>. Republicans focused on the House are profoundly worried that Trump's obsession with all things immigration will exacerbate their losses. The story even has Paul Ryan calling up Donald Trump on Sunday begging him to talk up the economy instead of immigration. Uh-huh. Do we believe that Trump is the only Republican who's wanted to focus on xenophobia? Do you think that call happened? Uh, I don't give a shit. <laugh> Paul Ryan giving interviews on Face the Nation, decrying the fact that we can't have a strategically valuable, inclusive, inspirational politics while his Super PAC runs some of the most racist fucking ads, uh, this cycle all across the country tells you everything we need to know. mm-hmm <affirmative>. What is… To me, Tommy, the narrative that is going to be the most important thing to- to focus on after this election is not what does it mean if Democrats win the House or don't win the House. Right now you have conservative pundits trying to say that this is an election about deregulation and lower taxes. And that's what they're campaigning on. Right? If Republicans win the House, they're gonna say they won because of low taxes and they won because of deregulation. If they lose the House, the intellectuals are gonna say it's because Trumpism doesn't work. Right? That's right. And if… and they will do the exact opposite depending on the outcome. And to me that is the most important thing. And I think we have to all be very clear. If Republicans don't do well we need to make it our story that an attempt to cover up for their unpopular policies… they tried to use immigration… but they can't deny that what happened in this campaign was about both. That to me is our big task, to make it both about race baiting and about their unpopular policies. Yeah. I think that the challenge on the race baiting piece is that you have so many media outlets, and we've talked about this before, who won't call overt racism for what it is. Yeah. Like, for example, the Des Moines Register, you know, not like some big mainstream news outlet, referred to Steve King, an avowed White Nationalist, a White Supremacist, uh, as blunt-talking conservative politician, uh… Usually they say fire brand. Yeah. And- and then, uh, what was the other thing they said about him? Uh, that he has a headline of off-color comments and strong anti-immigration views. I mean that is- that is white washing… Pun not intended… like a like guy who just went, uh, to Austria to meet with a- a party started by a former SS officer, like a Nazi. <laugh> Right? I mean like this is a bad, bad, bad human being, but we won't call these people for what they are. It's like saying Stringer Bell was a no-nonsense boss. <laugh> So anyway, these are just like… these are the hobby horses that I have that I… that's like all I have left to complain about these closing days of the election. No. It is important to recognize that it is not just Trump who has gone full xenophobe, uh, in the Republican party. They've all gone along with him. Yeah. It's not even like we always complain about Paul Ryan being silent about it. It's not like they were silent about it while it happened. They used this in their own campaigns. Look at Ron Desantis' campaign that he ran in Florida. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Look at Brian fucking Kemp in Georgia who is in the running for the worst villain of the cycle for sure. Sure. Which is a tough, tough category. I realize… I realize that, um, at this point Brian Kemp has engaged in so much voter suppression… mm-hmm <affirmative>. that when you see a story about him and voter suppression you're like, Oh, whatever, it's like… it's Tuesday. You know? Yep, yep.But what he did over the weekend… Nuts. Bonkers. That was a new fucking low. So, in 2016, uh, Kemp was one of the only Secretary of State's in the country to refuse help from the Department of Homeland Security to shore up their election systems, because they said there were huge vulnerabilities in George's election system- mm-hmm <affirmative>. That are vulnerable to cyber attacks. And so, a constituent in Georgia wrote an email to someone at the voter protection hotline, saying there were vulnerabilities in the Secretary of State's website that could be exposed by hackers. And then, Kemp said that that person who wrote about the vulnerabilities was a Democrat trying to hack the system and said that the Democrats were under FBI investigation for trying to hack the fucking Georgia election system. It is fucking stunning. Well, and in case you hear that and think, That's ludicrous. That's laughably stupid. I mean, Stacey Abrams was doing a round of Sunday shows this weekend and was asked this question about this allegation from Brian Kemp by very serious journalists, like Jake Tapper, and that sucks for her. Then her closing message is, is colored by this nonsense, made up allegation. It is. I mean, that, that election, by the way, God I hope Stacey Abrams wins. But, he has done everything possible to steal that election. Well, it's- And, I say steal not as an exaggeration there. Yes, it's… And, and, you know, this again comes down to the language that we use. Uh, Tom <inaudible> wrote a great piece- Great piece. For, you had it right, it's for some place called Hm Daily, which I, it come- It was floating around last week. I don't know, and it was just, it's just- I just saw it this weekend. It's sort of been bubbling up, yeah. Um, but, basically, about, that, because a lot of our political conversation is about how bad will Trump get? We're not doing a good enough job of accepting and describing how bad things are right now, and this is a great example. You know, we have already seen with the, with the Voting Rights Act being restricted by a conservative Supreme Court, an incredible amount of voter suppression of anti-Democratic practices. What Brian Kemp is doing is stealing an election, and he wins by a tiny majority. It will be an illegitimate election, but our politics so presumes the respectability of both parties in, in, it is… And, not just in you not using the word lie, not just in the kind of surface-y way, but deep, it is a deep core philosophy of our political system that both parties are respectable in competing on level playing, on a level playing field in a battle of ideas. And when that does not happen, which is what's happening in Georgia, if Stacey Abrams loses by a tiny majori- by a tiny amount, or if it goes to a, a, a run-off because you need to get 50. And, she almost gets to 50 and she loses. It will not be legitimate. But, our politics doesn't have an ability to allow that information to inform our politics. The, the political- <inaudible>- Press will call him the winner and describe his strategy as having been effective. Right. I was gonna say, as you say our politics, what you really mean is our media. Our media. Well, yes. Our media- Well, no… Yes, of course. It is. That's what it is. But even Democrats don't… Uh, look, yes, of course, and- Well the Demo- no Democrats know. We, we were, we're all saying it. We know how to say it. We know how to say it, but I don't know that we know how to truly live in a system in which Georgia will have an illegitimate governor who does not belong there and does not deserve the power that he has. Yeah. I don't know how to handle it. We, we just say that it's true. I know. Why… I don't know what you do beyond that. Just, just, uh, a note shy of that. I mean, Brian Kemp, again, a terrible person. I mean, Tweeting out racist photos of the new Black Panther party yesterday, just to play the, the racist greatest hits. Um, but, that race, somebody has to get 50% or else it goes to a run-off. Hm. So, I know we all want to take a deep breath on Wednesday and, like, reassess our lives and call some old friends and shit, but if that gets to a run-off, we all need to go all in on making sure Stacey Abrams has the resources she needs to win. And, and look- It really might. It really might, too. You know, when I was- It really might. Instead of asking the question, like, what does it mean for our politics if Trump's strategy and the Republican strategy of race baiting and xenophobia works, or if it doesn't. We don't know, right? mm-hmm <affirmative>. But, whether it works or not, what will remain true after Tuesday is that there is a sizeable part of the population, or Republican base, that got excited about it. Oh, yeah. Because, whether it's enough to get them over the edge or not, um, there has clearly been movement, uh, consolidating the Republican base over the last month, and that is partly the result of Donald Trump, uh, race baiting, and on, and being a full xenophobe on immigration, and him having the largest propaganda network in the world on his side, Fox News, just churning that shit out in all the other right wing outlets. Tough hit on China Daily, but, sure. And all the, and all the other right wing outlets, and perhaps an unwitting propaganda machine, Facebook, that has been spreading all of these conspiracies too. There will be a bunch of wars for the, the spin out this, and I know we've sort of debated the relevance of them, I just want to note one thing, which is the new NBC <inaudible> poll of Florida Senate. The likely voters say they prefer a candidate who opposed Brett Kavanaugh to a candidate who supported him. That is the fifth state where the NBC poll has shown this, including Nevada and Arizona. So, this is another example of where I think the spin coming out of this is very important. Because, you're gonna have the <inaudible> of the world, uh, as you call them, the intellectual Zamboni's that sweep up after Trump who say that Democrat's, uh, efforts to make sure a woman making an incredible allegation of sexual assault be heard was somehow bad politics. And thus, bad. Right? Because that's the Trump <inaudible> view of the world. You win, you lose, you're right, you're wrong. And we need to make sure that people understand that, no- And, you know what, Tommy? That had to be heard. That's the Trump view of the world, but that has been the view of the world from the political media, the DC political media- For sure. For as long as all, we've all been in politics- Yup. And, it's like, if we, if Democrats win, we're all, uh, they're the biggest geniuses ever known to man, everything they did was right, they ran a perfect campaign, and that's not gonna be true. And if- I do want everyone listening. You may not be able to hear it, but I promise I'm knocking on wood every time- I am too. Me too. Anyone says the words, Democrats win. But I'm saying, <inaudible> always used to say this. It's like, we are not as smart as people say we are when we win, and we're not as dumb as people say we are when we lose, and that, and that's gonna be… Because they- mm-hmm <affirmative>. It's all they can handle, is winning or losing. And they don't- And, that goes to the- And everything else gets blinded. And that goes to this question of the narrative after, because winning the House or losing the House, it's a yes or no proposition, but the actual interplay of Republicans, you know, business politics around tax cuts and regulation and their racial politics around immigration. These things are going to be with us when, for a while, and regardless of whether or not we can say after the fact that immigration worked for Trump or didn't work for Trump. What we know right now, is immigration is working better for them than their actual agenda. Even if it, this isn't enough to get them the victories that they need, we know that they don't feel like they have a platform they can run on. And, you know, Paul Ryan, I'm gonna be obsessed with Paul Ryan saying this to fucking Face the Nation forever, but him saying, like, How do we make inclusive, inspirational politics more strategic? That's actually a really good question. It's a really, really good question. How do we get Republicans to decide that there is a different kind of politics, whether it's anti-healthcare, deregulation, uh, pro tax cut for the rich, or using race baiting to try to win, despite the unpopularity of the agenda. I don't know how you get them to moderate on policy, I don't know how you get them to de-racialize, uh, in order to win. Beat them. But, but, I- Beat them. But the, but the old, but the only answer, the only answer is to beat them. That's all. There will always be a caravan. It's, it's an electoral, it's an electoral wipeout, is the only thing that they will listen to. The only thing that can get the reckoning that we need to get Paul- And, look, the answer to Paul Ryan's question is to kick Paul Ryan out of politics. And even that may not be enough. How many times did we all say, because our boss said, Obama said, it will break the fever if we beat them. And, in 2012 especially, he thought, If I win 2012, if I win this re-election, it will break the fever in the Republican party and they will stop some of the shit they're doing. Because then it was Benghazi, right? mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it only got worse. There was always a Benghazi, there will always be a caravan. Because they had an excuse. I have, I have no hope of that changing. I do. I just think we have to win and win. And we need to win, and then we need to change some of the structural things that have made it impossible to win in some places some 2010. That is very, very true. 2010 was a, a decade-long disaster. Right? Because of the census year. And, we are hopefully gonna be able to fix that. They could always point to the fact that, yeah, yeah, Barack Obama won, but Mitt Romney had flaws, Barrack Obama's a once in a generation talent. mm-hmm <affirmative>. They could point to the fact that they were doing well in the House and Senate to avoid that reckoning. If they had lost in 2016, I believe that reckoning would've come. You know, it, they just needed to be, lay low, and we have not… Since Barrack Obama won in 2012, and really since Democrats won the Congress in 2006, there has not been a decisive blow to Republican-ism in politics. That's 12 years ago. The only one was from Donald Trump to the establishment. Right. And, that was the only decisive <inaudible>. And they were just like, Well, well, this- Here's, there's, uh… <inaudible> still sitting around being like, No, no, no. Our tax cuts and our… They're very popular. And so is our- He's really running as us. So is our position on healthcare, which is why we're fucking lying about it this whole election. Yeah. Uh, can I just say one thing? Uh, we're in a slightly dark place, I know I certainly am, but I want to say thank you. <inaudible>, I'm in an anxious place. I'm in a very anxious place. I will never take anything for granted ever again. But, I just want to say thank you to the Pod Save America listeners because this, the people who listen to this show did not sit on their ass and just read tweets. Uh, it's, so, a couple of quick stats. You guys raised 1.34 million dollars for 20 targeted candidates that we started talking about, you raised another 785,000 for 11 targeted candidates, back in the day you guys raised, like, 400 grand for the Crooked Eight Districts, that is on top of 207,000 people pledging to vote on Vote Save America, 20,000 volunteer shifts were filled through Vote Save America, nearly half a million people, uh, use the Vote Save America voter guide. So, like, you guys will… Every time I went canvassing, there were five Pod Save America t-shirts, there were people, every campaign I met with when we went to <inaudible> office, half the people there had gotten staffed up via Pod Save America somehow, like were listeners. So, you guys- Yeah. Were out in force. Yeah. No, it's, it's been incredibly inspiring. I mean, that brings us to Democrats, we should be self-reflective before we know the verdict. That's right. Yes. Um, are the Democrats closing well, do we think they made any big mistakes along the way? Uh… Harder, harder to do before we know the verdict, huh? I, you know, I would just say, uh, all the judges were giving them 10's. 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, landing every triple axle. I will say, Democrats have not figured out how to talk about immigration. Um- Yeah, it's been a long term. We are… There are some that have. I think that <inaudible> been, uh, we'll see if he wins or not, but I think, like, I hear him talk about it and I feel like he sounds honest and candid and understands that, you know, we need to have a border in this country, we need to have immigration laws and policies. But, I think most Democrats have run scared, and when Republicans sense that, when the media senses it, it becomes a meta-issue, which is why we're talking about the caravan still. I agree with that. I'm, I am very proud of the party for, uh, honing in on healthcare- Me too. And it's… And, uh, and particularly pre-existing conditions. And especially, look, the media narrative was not there for them. The media narrative kept pushing, and when you're in a race like that and all you see on the news is immigration, immigration, there is a real fear of, like, maybe we have the wrong strategy, maybe we shouldn't be talking about healthcare all the time. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Maybe we've gotta go talk about this, maybe we've gotta move this way or that way. They… And, and, for so many campaigns all around the country to think to themselves, Okay, here's our plan. We're gonna talk about healthcare, we're gonna talk about things that matter. And, and, there's also a larger message too that some of the best candidates, I think, have hit, Gillam, Abrams, <inaudible>, um, some of these House members, which is, If you don't like this division and this fear, vote for us because, the only way to rebuke this kind of politics is to vote for balance in Washington. Which, I also think was a really smart message, besides just the healthcare thing. Yeah. So, look, I'm sure there's Democrats… Democrats have made plenty of mistakes along the way all over the places, but, I, I, to be perfectly honest, like, if, if we, if we come up short on Wednesday, I do not think it will be because the Democrats as whole made some big, huge mistakes. Sweeping <inaudible>. Except, like you said, maybe not figuring out how to talk about immigration, but I think, you know, the healthcare message was strong, powerful, we know it matters to people, that's what voters are telling people in polls, that's what voters are telling people in person. The people we have talked to said that. Yeah, so, I, I was thinking about that too. So, what, what, what happens if we wake up on Wednesday and we haven't won the House? What, what's the lesson there? What can you take away? Beyond just the fact that we have this uphill climb, because that uphill climb isn't going anywhere, right? And we need to do better. And, we should want to do as well as possible, even if we do win the House. And, to me, what I see around healthcare is the model for how we need to widen out our approach to other policy areas as well, that, that on healthcare, what you have seen in the last two years is the Democratic party shift to the left. And not haphazardly, but toward a simple idea of universal coverage through access to something like Medicare, right? That is the uni- that is now a pretty well, pretty well established consensus view. It runs from people who have proposed, like Chris Murphey, a, a bill to make sure everyone has access to something like Medicare all the way to Bernie Sanders and others who have been advocating for Medicare for all. I think that's really exciting, and what I want to see after is that kind of approach to other areas, whether it's taxes or- Green jobs. Green jobs guarantee- Energy… Yeah. Energy, uh, simple, elegant, universal. Because- A pro Democracy agenda, like Tommy was saying, that includes, you know, stop, uh, redistricting and ending voter suppression- Not just ending voter suppression, but- Automatic registration- Weekend voting? And, and, and the, and the ability for everyone to vote, no matter what, that shifting the burden of proof back onto the government and not onto people- Yeah. To prove that they have the right to vote. The unity on the policy of healthcare is what allowed for the unity on the politics of healthcare. The fact that we were able to keep Joe Manchin in line. Joe Manchin who voted for Cavanaugh, right? We were able to keep this caucus together because we weren't just adhering to a, a white paper around healthcare. We had established that Democrats were better on this issue, and that gave Democrats everywhere from the most liberal places to the most conservative places, the confidence to stand firm on the issue, and I think we need to look at that healthcare lesson and apply it across the board. And, look, the party and everyone in the party was very unified around giving just about every candidate a lot of running room on this issue. There were a lot of candidates who said, We're not for Medicare for all. We're here defending pre-existing conditions. And then there were candidates who were for Medicare for all in, uh, blue states and in red states, too. I mean, we, you know, some of these people in California that are running in these Republican Orange County districts came out for Medicare for all too, right? But, whatever you decided, there was not a lot of end fighting in the party about, Oh, you're not with us on this. The people who believe in Medicare for all are pushing as hard as they should, as we have been, but if the people who aren't, as we're running a race against Republicans, have been okay with saying, Okay, you go defend pre-existing conditions in your very tough race. And, and so, and so, win, lose, or draw the take-away from that, there's gonna be… If, if things don't go as well as we want them to, people will say, Oh, Democrats need to run to the center. Democrats need to run to the middle. And, what I see is Democrats need to do more around other issues to give people the same level of confidence in this party that they have. The fact that we have moved to the left while the country has united behind Democrats on healthcare, but we might have the ability to win this election on healthcare, is gonna tell you something really, really, important no matter what happens. Yeah. Let's talk about, let's end with talking about what we are watching for on Tuesday night. What are the races we are most excited about? What are we gonna be looking for? What do you guys think? Were, were, were the emotions invested? We could do both, yeah. The motions are invested in Texas, Georgia, Andrew Gillum's race in Florida- Yeah. Those are the things I'm watching very, very closely. Loosely in <inaudible>. Those are the top three for me too. Amendment four. Amendment four in Florida. Amendment Four is a huge deal. Because, because that's a 60% threshold and that's gonna tell us a lot. Amendment five is a big deal. It's, it's a super majority for tax increases that could bottle out the next person. In Florida? Florida's a… Whatever, it's a bad one. Um, other candidates that you feel excited about? I mean, Gillum, Abrams, and <inaudible> to me are the, the, the top three. And look- Because they tell a story that's bigger than just those candidates in those states, it's about politics in general, I think. Yes. And, when you look at those three candidates who are, you know, a, a diverse three candidates, they also have a lot in common, right? Yeah. Which, they are a new generation of Democrats who are just, they are talking big. Right? Yeah. Their message is big, it feels like a message for the entire country, and that's because they are three progressive Democrats running in very red states. Un-abashedly, so. You know, and I don't, and when we don't know if all the… You know, <inaudible> a long shot, though he's closing, we love him, Stacey Abrams, it's, I mean, the first black woman to be governor of Georgia. Georgia? That is an extremely tough race. Monumental- And she is so close- Thing. But that's <inaudible>. And Gillum, you know, uh, polls show is slightly ahead, right? Like, I think I'll be, I, I'd probably be most crushed if Gillum loses because he's probably the most likely to win. Um, am I right? Because that's why I'm the, I'd be the most crushed. <inaudible> and Abrams have a tougher slot, <inaudible> especially. Yeah. Um, but those three candidates, whether they win or lose, should point the way to Democrats for being, you know, they, they should be the model for other Democrats running for office, I think. Right. It's funny too because, of course, the margin doesn't matter as much as the outcome, but the margin will tell you if it was effective or not, right? That's true too. And so, you know, there's gonna be… Whatever happens, it… The, the, the conversation is, is based entirely around this whether or not someone crossed the 50 / 50 threshold. But what matters, what we can learn the most from, is what's effective in a subtler way, by looking at margins, by looking at what was effective and what wasn't. So, you know, that's all. And, that's all I have to say about that. Um, race, races to watch early, um, when the east coast closes- <inaudible>. To give us, to give us hints about whether the Democrats will have a good night. Race to the medical marijuana store. No, I'm just kidding. Uh- Medical? Indiana, Kentucky, Florida will be pretty early, right? Yeah. And so, and, and a note on those… Like, Indiana's a tough state, so Indiana comes out, you know, the, the polls close there early. If Joe <inaudible> having a tough time, it is not the end of the world. So, just letting everyone know that. Ah! Do you see? I know, I know. Uh, Amy McGrath in Kentucky. The Kentucky is the other one that closes early. Yeah, very tough race. That is a very tough race too. She's, she's in the hunt, it's very close, but it could go either way. Um, other ones to watch early? Uh, Antonio Delgato in the New York 19th. If he wins, that is a very good sign for Democrats taking the House. That is a big middle finger to Paul Ryan. Right. Jared Golden in Maine in the second district, he is in a very tight race. If he does well, that's a good sign. Tom Malinowski, worked for the Obama administration in the New Jersey 7th. New Jersey. And then Spanberger in Virginia 7th. I would watch all of those races early, and if Democrats do well in a bunch of those races, it is a very good sign. What are you gonna be doing Lovett? I'm gonna be in a vampire's coffin, uh, sensory deprivation tank, and I would like every once in a while for you to, uh, lift the lid and hand me little updates on, like, Post It's or something. Pouring some water? I liked your tweet about, um, you want to just spend the next however many hours in a room without any news coverage, and someone just hands you an envelope would be- That's all I want. Yeah, I want, I want to be in, like- I would never have that, I would never be able to have that discipline. I want to be in, like, an old boy room, the movie Old Boy where they locked somebody in a room for 30 years, I just want to do it for two days, without the gross stuff in that movie. There's a, there's a movie about locking a dude in a room for 30 years? There is. Is it terrible? It's terrible. People listening to this who have, who know about Old Boy are like, Yeah, you don't want that. But I just want it for two days, without any of the things around it. Uh. Um, there's also some favorites too, that I'll be watching for. Abby Finkenauer in Iowa- mm-hmm <affirmative>. Who we know. Uh, Chrissy Houlahan- Yeah. Who was on the show in Pennsylvania. Katie Porter <inaudible>, Katie Porter, Katie Hill, um, <inaudible> in Iowa- mm-hmm <affirmative>. You know, getting, having a close race with Steve King, perhaps. Pennsylvania, watching Pennsylvania is gonna be, I think, emotionally important just because we've gotta, we've gotta, we've gotta remind ourselves that we know how to win in Pennsylvania. Right. Yup. <inaudible> in Ohio, Lauren Underwood in Illinois, Lucy McBath in Georgia, Lauren Bear in Florida… There's a lot of names that I will not list off. Yeah. But, one of the best perks of the job is getting to actually speak to these people, face to face, and realizing how impressive the slate of Democrats is. Um, last question. Any Democrats you hope lose? Hm… Ah… Uh… We'll wait. No. There are, there are none because every, I don't care how bad of a candidate you are, we need every Democrat elected possible right now. Agree to disagree. This is a national, it is a national emergency. When we go back to having regular Republicans that beat us, we can talk about that. True. Final question, what's making us nervous and what's making us hopeful in these, in this final day? Well, let's start with nervous and then we'll end on a high note for everyone. I think genetics. Uh, uh, everything. Emotion. I am, I am nervous that the caravan stuff has gotten the level of coverage that it's gotten, that we have learned nothing from 2016, that, that Donald Trump has found yet another issue that he can harp on, that he can get the press coverage he wants around, and that you, that, that we will look back on it as having, uh, swamped the political coverage in a way that pushed out things like healthcare and tax cuts and all the rest. Uh, that makes me very, very nervous. Yeah. I go back to, sort of, structural realities. I worry about, you know, when we, uh, when the, when the results started coming in, uh, in 2016, there was a surge of Trump voters in a lot of ex-urban, far flung suburban counties that we hadn't seen before that no one expected. And, I wonder, when you look at all the polls now and it says that, you know, Trump's consolidated the base and Republicans are almost as excited as Democrats to turn out. It's just, this is, it's not only an election where, Oh, Republicans might stay home. It's an election where Republicans are going to turn out, and the only question is, does our turnout beat their turnout? And also, if this was a presidential year, it would be different. Midterms? Traditionally, Republicans have better turnout in midterms. For us to win this midterm again, we have to change the electorate by bringing in new voters, who have not voted in a long time. And, and that's gonna heavily depend on young people turning out, Latinos turning out, and suburban women who have been crushing it. Yeah, I mean, I worry about the… The zero sum nature of politics, where winning and losing is everything, coupled with the structural challenges we face going into this year, with how hard it is to win the House and do all the things we want to do, uh, plus the fact that a six point margin or seven point margin is all the difference in the world. And, there's all these young people who are getting involved in politics for the first time, so all these new voters who are turning out, and I want those people to feel like their participation really did matter, because it did. Yup. And, just because, you know, there was a smaller, uh, a smaller turnout than we needed, doesn't mean that we were fully rebuked as a party, or ideas were rebuked. We have to keep fighting it. We have to wake up on Wednesday morning, unfortunately, and do it again. Yup. Yeah. We've gotta run it back. What, what, what's, uh, what's making us hopeful? Great candidates. Yeah. Fighting their asses off. I mean, truly, this slate of candidates is unbelievable. I, I was gonna say the same thing. I have never seen a field of candidates so inspiring than I have in 2018, and that goes from the very top races in the Senate to people running for state legislature that we've met- Yeah. I mean, and, you know, kudos to run for something and to all the groups that have been helping- Yeah. Recruit these candidates- Indivisible Swing, <inaudible>, those people did amazing work. Yeah. I mean, that, uh, I've, I've never seen a, a slate of candidates, like, I'm so proud to be a Democrat, because of the candidates we're running. Me too. And, and that makes… That, that's, that makes me hopeful. And, the energy. We were all canvassing yesterday. Lovett, you were with Katie Hill, we were with, uh, Harley <inaudible>, and it's just, the passion and the energy and it, like, you know, we met someone in, uh, where, who was canvassing for Harley <inaudible>, who was like, Oh, yeah. I was just canvassing for Katie Porter, and I decided to do that in the morning and then drive all the way to the other county and do this in the afternoon. Yeah, she did the LA, like, ski and surf thing- Right. But, for canvassing. Right. It is, you know, it's funny. It's too, like, the enthusiasm and the energy is both what… It, it is what makes me hopeful. It is also- And nervous? And nervous. Yeah. Well, because- Yeah, no, I hear you. We have done more in a midterm than we, than we ever have before. I think there's a lot of people participating in a midterm and paying attention to a midterm in a way they haven't before, and that's really exciting. And, I do, I see all that energy, and I see that all enthusiasm, and I think, God, I hope, I hope you feel- It's enough? I hope it's enough. I hope it's enough because the, the, the, the thing that makes me most nervous is waking up the next day and all these people feeling… But, we did everything we could. Exactly. And, it wasn't enough. And I, and I do think we did everything we could. I think every, uh, you know, every person who has participated in this election, many of them who have never participated in an election before, have worked their asses off and they have believed, you know? Yeah. No, it's, it's… No, but like, it's, I, I'm glad we're talking about this today. I, I just… What's gonna happen tomorrow is… This has been a really- A shit show. It's a shit show. And, it's been a really, really long two years and we need a fucking win. Yeah. We need it. And, we've talked about just how Herculean the task is, we've talked about just how important it is, not just because winning the House means we can stop what Trump does, but the power that comes along with it, but more than that, it's a moral victory and a psychological victory that I think a lot of people listening to this feel like they need. And I know that going into Tuesday, you feel like you need it. And, it's so hard to say this now before it happens, but, but because it really is 50 / 50 we need to go into this with eyes open. And, knowing that, uh, we've done everything we can, it truly may not be enough, but if it is, it will be because we all did our part. And if it isn't, it will be because it turns out that things were even worse and even harder and, uh, uh, uh, and further gone than we realized, and it just means we'll have to do that much more- Yeah. And, that's all there is to it. And I also, I'm hopeful because, uh, I have sensed a slight shift in the mindset of Democratic activists and organizers. And that is, it is not just about… And, and the media would say otherwise, but this has not just been about, We must stop Trump. No. This is… And, and because of candidates like <inaudible> and Stacey Abrams and Andrew Gillum, and a lot of these, uh, Congressional candidates all over the country and a lot of these <inaudible> candidates who are talking about a vision for the country that is bigger than Donald Trump, a type of politics that is better than what Donald Trump has given us. People are voting for something, they are knocking on doors, and inspired, and out there because they believe in something, not because they just want to stop Trump, and I think that that energy is more powerful than the negative energy, just to stop something bad from happening. And, that makes me hopeful. Okay. Well, we will talk to you all Tuesday evening, here in the studio. If you need me, I'm gonna go throw my laptop into a fucking volcano and hide from the news. I'll be refreshing Twitter every five seconds. I… From now, it is- All the dogs are here today. We're talking, it's 11 a.m. Monday, and from now until the first results come in, I, I feel like I'm back on a campaign, even though we're not on campaigns. All you do is you just text your… You hearing anything? You hear anything? What, what do you know? What do you know? How about numbers? Do you got any numbers for me? Everyone I've ever worked with in politics is now in a group text. There really is nothing left to say. Nothing. Nothing. We have spent two years trying to convince people to go to The Olive Garden instead of a restaurant where they poison you, uh, don't pay their staff, and the owner is a racist. And, uh, you know, The Olive Garden isn't perfect, all right? You wish it was more consistent. But, you know what? When you're there, you're family. Awesome. End it there. The Olive Garden election. All right, uh, when we come back, uh, we will have our interview with Texas Congressional candidate, <inaudible>. Pod Save America is brought to you by Policy Genius. Some things are incredibly important, but people don't do them because they're not fun, like buying life insurance or voting in midterm elections. Yeah. Oh, contrary. I think voting in midterm elections is a fucking great time. Yeah, yeah. Policy Genius. You get to download <inaudible> on Pod, on great, on Vote Save America, you can check things out, you can share it with your friends- Usually Policy Genius is exactly right, but this time they seem like bone heads to me. Bone heads. A lot of Neanderthal DNA in there. Yeah, look at you. Look at that call back. Huh? And, while we normally tell you to put life insurance- They don't have the <inaudible>. Yeah. You know what's not smart? That line. Policy Genius, we are doing this because we know you have a good sense of humor. We love you. And, while we normally tell you to put life insurance at the top of your to-do list, the most important thing you can do this week is vote. Correct Policy Genius. Thank you. 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Anyway- People, people who are listening to this ad, you put in the code PodSave, five dollars goes to you, five dollars goes to World Central Kitchen, a wonderful organization that Jose Andres has been working with to help people who have been, uh, harmed by the hurricanes- Someone sent me a dollar for being replaced by Travis. Was it Travis? No, it was someone named Ben, whose seen a mountain and thinks it's so cool, he put it in his picture. That's good, it keeps you on your toes. Download the Cash app today. PodSave is the code. PodSave. So, we've been sharing stories of candidates leading up to the midterm elections, and today for our final candidate segment, we're gonna hear from someone who's coming to politics after two careers, one is a civil rights attorney, and the other is a linebacker in the NFL. From the NFL to Congress- Colin Allred, Pete Session race is attracting national headlines because Hillary Clinton beat Donald Trump in this district. A New York Times poll last month said he was just one point behind Sessions. I've seen some incredible energy here on the ground. The state of Texas increasingly is turning blue. Colin Allred is the Democratic Congressional nominee for Texas' 32nd District. He's running against Republican incumbent Pete Sessions. It is a district that encompasses the, the northern and eastern parts of Dallas and some of the suburbs that are north and northeast of Dallas, like Richardson and Garland and Wiley and Sachse. I was born and raised here in this district by a single mother who was a public school teacher. Uh, my mom taught in Texas Public Schools for 27 years, and uh, we don't pay our teachers enough, so uh, growing up it wasn't always easy. Colin's dad wasn't around, but he doesn't focus on that. You know, my story is about, uh, the mom who was there, uh, and it's not, uh, so much about, uh, the father who wasn't. And, you know, my mom worked extremely hard, sometimes two jobs, and we see that teachers across the country are having to make, uh, these choices about working multiple jobs and, you know, when you're doing that, uh, and you're being raised by a single mother, you rely on the community more. And it's that community, not just his district but the whole state of Texas, that Colin wants to serve. I am a fourth generation Texan, and so I think I have a little bit of an understanding about it. The Texas that I know believes in something larger than ourselves, believes that we're better when we invest in each other, when we give each other a chance. It's always been a diverse state with lots of different types of folks here, people who came from different backgrounds, maybe came here on different ships, but I believe that we're in the same boat now and that we need to be pulling in the same direction. And, that's the Texas that I know, that's, that's the Texas that I love, and that's the Texas that I want to represent. One of the reasons Colin loves Texas is the time he spent in college and playing linebacker at Baylor University. Well, football for me, uh, has always been a means to an end, but also something that taught me, I think, really important values. Uh, I wanted to play, uh, to pay for my college. In college, at Baylor, and then when I pursued my NFL career, my goal initially was to play long enough to pay for my law school. For me, um, my football career was actually the surprise. My, uh, goal was to go to law school, and I applied to law schools during my, uh, senior year, uh, at Baylor and I expected to, uh, be going to one of them the year after I finished playing, uh, and I started getting approached by agents who wanted to represent me and who basically convinced me, uh, that I was gonna have a chance at having an NFL career. Until then, I decided to give it a shot, uh, and see what happened, knowing that, um, I had gotten into Cal, uh, that I had deferred my admission, and that, uh, that was something that I was going to do whenever my career was over. Colin came into the league as an un-drafted free agent, but got signed and played for five years. His career ended abruptly after he suffered a neck injury during a game against the Cowboys. When I had that injury and I was lying on the turf in Dallas, I remember thinking, you know, I'm just so ready to go to law school. But, Colin got a lot from his years on the grid iron. Much more than just tuition money. One of the things that I've always loved about football and football locker rooms is that you would be surprised, you know, who was best friends on a football team and who, uh, gets along. It's, it brings together people from all different backgrounds, people who, uh, maybe come from the inner city, maybe from, you know, uh, more rural areas, uh, and when you throw us all together, uh, what we end up finding out is how much we have in common instead of, uh, how different we are. Colin brought that sensibility to law school, where he planned to focus on civil rights. At Berkeley, Colin found his passion. What most appealed to me, most, was voting rights, because I found it to be sort of the source of all of, all of our other rights and, um, I knew that there was a lot going on in Texas to make it harder for people to, to vote. And so, that became my focus. After the, uh, 2010 census, the Texas legislature met and passed a series of even more restrictive laws than we had in place previously, uh, beginning with a voter ID law, uh, that placed severe limits on the numbers and types of ID's that you could use to vote in person in Texas. That's one way that the people in charge make bad laws to help themselves stay in power, by setting unconscionably strict requirements. And we, uh, have a lot of people here who did not meet those requirements, and I worked with a lot of them on the ground here. And, as somebody who believes in our state, who grew up, uh, going to schools that are extremely diverse, that believes that we need to have more people engaged in our democracy and that Texas can do a lot better than being dead last or next to last in voter turnout. Um, I knew I wanted to get involved in voting, make sure that no matter who you were gonna vote for, uh, that you are able to cast your ballot, that you are able to make your voice heard, uh, and I still think that is the main struggle that we face in this country. We need to expand our democracy, we need to make it easier for people to get engaged, make it easier for them to be involved. That will produce for us a more representative government, a government I think is more responsive and more, um, accountable to the people who it's supposed to be representing. After graduating, one of Colin's jobs was in voting rights litigation. He worked on cases against states that are illegally restricting the right to vote. Uh, one of the biggest cases that I worked on when, was, uh, in Wisconsin, uh, where we have seen a lot of laws passed that made it very difficult for folks to vote, uh, from the voter ID law, to restrictions on voter registration, to limiting polling place locations and hours and early voting locations. Uh, there really was a comprehensive effort, uh, underway in Wisconsin to make it harder for folks to vote. And, you know, we saw in this last election that Wisconsin was extremely close, and I think that, uh, we have to understand the role that voter suppression and that the laws that are in place play in restricting the turnout, restricting who turns out, uh, and then changing, really, the course of elections. Uh, and I don't think that that's in anyone's interests. I think that we as a country, uh, should be able to have a contest of ideas that if you, uh, get more votes and you convince more people, then your ideas win out. Uh, but if you don't, then you should have to change them to match what the majority of folks want, and to try and make sure that we have a representative democracy that actually does represent the people. I'm running here in my home town where I was born and raised, and where I believe, uh, my life was made possible by the people in this community and the investments that they made in me, and I want to give back to that community. And that, and that's a different motivation, maybe, than, uh, just wanting to, to go to, uh, to Washington to gum up the works or to try and pass a certain ideology. I want to do what's best for north Texans. Things that will throw open the, the shutters, so to speak, and let the light shine in, and to let people understand and know more about their democracy and have a greater faith in it. Another issue that's very personal to Colin is affordable healthcare. Um, you know, my grandmother moved in, uh, with my mom when I was young because she had, uh, Alzheimer's and I saw kind of the day-to-day struggles that go into having to nurse a family member and, and having to rely on the healthcare system so directly. Um, my mother is, uh, also a breast cancer survivor and, um, this is something that everywhere I go here in north Texas, people talk to me about it, and it's the number one issue by far. The people are concerned about their healthcare, they're concerned that it's become a political football, uh, because things like having a pre-existing condition, which you know, having breast cancer is a pre-existing condition, um, really is not political. Colin's trying to unseat Pete Sessions, a long time Republican incumbent. There comes a point when every Congressman needs to head home. In Washington, Pete Sessions has taken- I'm not a career politician, I'm a former NFL player turned civil rights lawyer, who's running here in my hometown to represent the people who I believe so much in, uh, and who gave me a chance, uh, to live the life that I've led. Unlike his opponent, Colin's not setting himself up to be accountable to special interests. And, I don't take any corporate pack money, I believe, uh, and I made that commitment because I want to make sure people know that no one has their hooks in me, that I'm, uh, gonna be representing them and that there's no one else who's gonna be, uh, trying to tell me what I'm doing. Instead, Colin's grassroots approach is bringing a personal touch to his campaign. Well, I believe that the most effective tool in our democracy is still a neighbor talking to a neighbor. And, from the very beginning of this campaign we have invested in a grassroots movement that I think has allowed us to do something that is extremely special here in north Texas, and that I think, uh, is almost unprecedented, uh, here in our area. We have had hundreds and hundreds of volunteers who have knocked on well over 150,000 doors, who have made many more phone calls than that, people who bring their kids in little red wagons to, to go block walk, people who strap their babies to their chest and, and go talk to their neighbors. It's inspiring. Uh, to me, it's the way our democracy should work. I think it's the most effective tool we have, and especially with voters who maybe don't always vote in a midterm or who have checked out because they feel like it doesn't matter or that their vote doesn't count. I think it's really important here in Texas that we take our campaigns to them, that we go to those voters, that we show up at their doors, I show up at their doors, I have done dozens and dozens of town hall events that we call Coffee with Colin where I'll go to a coffee shop and speak for a little while, and then take questions for as long as people have questions. I want to be as accessible as possible in this campaign and use that as a model for how I'll be in Congress. Uh, and I think that's the, the best way to get more people engaged. I think that's the fundamental aspect of our democracy that we have gotten away from a bit, and I think that's what we have to work on restoring, uh, in these coming elections. That was Colin Allred, the Democratic nominee for Texas' 32nd Congressional District. You can learn more about him and other exciting candidates and competitive races near you at VoteSaveAmerica.com. You can even see a sample ballot, so that you're ready to vote on election day. Thanks to Colin Allred and thanks to all of you. Everyone, 24 hours left, do everything you can that you haven't done yet, phone calls, get people to the polls, get your friends to vote who are lazy and might not vote. Every time someone asks you what's gonna happen, go to swing left and do some fucking phone banking or something. Yeah, just tell your friends about it. Yeah, especially your lazy friends. Yeah, get those lazy friends. Especially the ones who are like, What? It's, I thought only presidential elections are important. No! Wrong! 2018, midterm elections are everything. Do it. You've got lazy friends, you know those lazy friends of yours. Sitting on their couch with their edible gummy bears and their video games. Bye everyone. 

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+Jack, I don't have to tell you. You know sleep is pretty tight. Oh, you said it man. Some might say it's even pretty cool. I would even say that. Well, <laugh> that's why Purple Mattress is a mattress you all should be considering because it is made perfectly for our bodies, and some might say it uses space-age technology because it was developed by an actual rocket scientist. Well, guess what? Now, all of the Zeit gang, you can get 100 night risk-free trial. If you're not fully satisfied, you can return your mattress for a full refund. Okay? You guys are gonna love Purple. And right now our listeners will get a free Purple Pillow with the purchase of a mattress, that's in addition to the great free gifts they're offering site-wide, just text DAILYZ to 474747. The only way to get this free pillow, is to text D-A-I-L-Y-Z to 474747. Message and data rates may apply. Hello, the internet! And, welcome to Season 23, Episode 1 of The Daily Zeitgeist! Ooh ya. For March 19th, 2018. My name is Jack O'Brien, a.k.a. 86753 O'Bri-ei-enn. Uh, that is courtesy of Stuart Thomas. And I am thrilled to be joined, as always, by my co-host, Mr. Miles Gray. I pulled up to the house about seven or eight, and I yelled to the cabbie, Yo Homes, Smell you greater. <laugh> Hey. Thank you to, uh, what? Aka Goddess, Chapman Rice, again, coming through with that a.k.a.. God damn. So thank you Ma. She is prolific. Prolific. And we are thrilled to be joined in our third seat, uh, by one of the funniest comedians and, you know, just generally, uh, a Daily Zeitgeist guest out there, mr Edgar Momplaisir. Oingo Boingo. Yeah. Oh, there he is. Shout out to Jamie Loftus. I'm catching up. <laugh> Yeah. Right. You might, you might overtake her soon. I'm trying to. We have this, we, uh, go back and forth on the DMs, talking trash to each other about- <laugh>… who's the better Daily Zeitgeist guest. Oh, I guess Instagram DMs now. Yes. That is correct. So, yeah. 'Cause, uh, she has been banned from Twitter. Yeah. I think she might come back. She'll be back. It seems like they're… she was only waiting for like the IOC to not complain to renew their complaint. mm-hmm <affirmative>. And they, that might have happened, but again, keep, watch this space. Edgar, what is something from your search history that is revealing about who you are? All right, here we go. Here it is. What have I been searching? Oh, Rick and Morty season four. Ah. Ah. Is it happening? I don't know if you guys have heard, but Adult Swim has yet to order a fourth season from them. So I don't know. Wouldn't that be like their top rated show? Is it not- I don't understand what's happening. highly rated? Yeah. I don't understand what's happening, but someone Tweeted at Dan Harmon and said, Hey you lazy piece of shit. <laugh> Stop being an alcoholic and write the next season of Rick and Morty. <laugh> <laugh> And he was like, Uh, there's no season because the season has not been ordered my man. Yeah that's what he responded. So the chef can't get cooking. Exactly. Unless you put the order in. Okay. Edgar what is something that you think is underrated? I think March Madness is underrated guys. Do you really? Underrated? You just came in and said the brackets were bullshit. I'm hurt by them, I didn't say bullshit as in- The tournament itself. That they were, the tournament itself is beautiful. Okay. No it's true. I was hanging out in Public House on Saturday night and to watch an entire bar lose their shit when Jordan Poole hit that shot. That's- That was so fun man. That's beautiful. Yeah. You know what was crazy? You know you can't get that in any other sport. I was having dinner with friends and, uh, one of, one of our friends, he went to Michigan and he was like, Okay, can we turn the game on like they're, they're down by one or two or something? And I was like, All right. We turn it on and by the time like everything loads up, it's the replay of this shot. Really? Oh my gosh. And it's, we literally turn and maybe five seconds after and they're like, It's unbelievable. And we're like, oh so is this the, like this happened? mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then we had like a latent reaction to it. Yeah. It was so cool, it was so. I watched, did you watch the whole game? I watched the second half, yeah. That was one, that was one of the better games I've ever seen. It was just like back and forth, like trading buckets. mm-hmm <affirmative>, yeah. The whole time, it was such a good game at the venue. I'm really happy that, that kid who had James Gray's exact haircut was shamed. <laugh> Yeah. <laugh> Yeah. Because he was talking, that kid was talking shit to his face. He was. Yeah. And I was ashamed that he had my last name. <laugh> But, uh, yeah that's a, that was a weird little man bun. He was, uh, it was weird and I, and I said this as I was watching the game. I was like, A man bun looks really odd on a child. Yeah. Yeah, it does. Right, that hairstyle like because you feel like that's like a grizzled like adult look. Is that his brother or something like that? Yeah, it is. Oh it is? I don't know exactly. Rob Gray's brother, right? Oh. Because his names Rob, right? I don't know. Is it Rob or James, I don't know? I thought, I think it's Rob Gray. His name's Gray. Uh, he is not a Game of Thrones character, even though it sounds like it should be maybe. It really does sound like a Game of Thrones character. Uh, he's a 6'1 character, who because he's playing basketball against taller people, it looks like he's like 5'6 out there. But he just fills it up. <laugh> With a kid. Ugh, it looks terrible. But he has a man bun and then his little brother had a man bun. And was like, see this is, I, I blame CBS. I- That is cool though, that is cool to have your brother look like you. Yeah and the commentators like kept going to him. Yeah, they did. Like they showed that every single time his brother scored. Right. And his brother scored a lot, he had the most points through two rounds of any player, uh, other than Steph Curry. So like he was balling. And- He wa a point away from Steph Curry, right? Uh, I think he was more than a point. I think Steph Curry was in the 70s. Yeah. And he was at like 61. But, uh, yeah. It, it was just a really good game. Uh, I don't know, I don't know how I feel about, uh, CBS constantly showing the, the families of the players and the families of the coaches. Because it's like, none of those people are, it's just like purely unguarded moments, you know? Yeah. Right, right. Where they're like, you know. And then they end up getting targeted. Right. I don't know if you saw what happened to the Duke mom, against the team that they were playing. But the kid starting taunting her and attacking her and yelling at her. Yeah, of course they are. And I'm pretty sure they were able to identify Wendell Carter's mom because you know? Right. Yeah. CBS kept cutting to them. <laugh> Wow. And if I could pick like the 10 moments I would not want to be nationally televised from my life up to this point, I'd say nine of them are from games that, my dad's a basketball coach and from games that he was coaching. Like I, I get very fired up during those games. And then like 10 seconds later, I'm like damn I really overreacted to that. <laugh> Right, right, right. <laugh> To that call or that shot or. I would love, I would love, love, love to see a shot of you just spilling nachos on yourself. <laugh> After JJ Redick hit a three. <laugh> I threw a soda at somebody, when I was like 12, uh, over- Oh wow. Yeah. Jack O'Brien. Yeah, I mean he was like a 50 year old, big. <laugh> That doesn't make it okay Jack. Dude it was- Was he taunting you or something? Yeah, he was just like an annoying, uh, I think he was a- Shitty adult. A Mississippi State fan. Ah huh. And he said? And, uh, this was when my dad was an assistant for the University of Kentucky during the SEC tournament. Shout out to you, uh, big fat 50 year old white due, with a cowboy hat. He's dead now. Who, I threw a soda at. Yeah, he probably is. He's definitely dead. Anyways, uh. You killed him that day. But March Madness is wonderful. I suggest people, uh, who are thinking about having kids, line it up so you are having your child right before March Madness. Because I just sit on the couch all day, <laugh> burping my son, just like. There you go. Yeah you just, it's like one of the, the, those types of entertainment that, uh, you know the whole family can have on in the background. Even a newborn child. Even a newborn child. That's enjoyable. That's sounds like- Yeah. Well that sounds like a very great way to be a father. A great weekend, yeah. How about, so you got into a lot of contact hours with your child, there? Yeah. Yeah. A lot of, a lot of skin to skin. Yep. A lot of skin to skin. Strap the child on, watch the games. Good times. He's starting to look like a human being you guys. Uh. Oh no longer, is he opening his eyes more? He's opening his eyes. Uh, people keep saying he looks like me, I don't think he looks like me at all but, uh. You're like, I think he looks like a baby. <laugh> Doesn't it look like a baby? I mean. Exactly. <laugh> That's offensive. Yeah, I'm just a nightmare at home, you guys. Uh. I'm no fucking baby, I fucking meant. Exactly. Uh, Edgar, what's something you think is overrated? <laugh> Uh, so. <laugh> I'm 33 years old. That video is so, <laugh> that video is so good. I'm 37 years old, I'm no fucking baby, I fucking meant. <laugh> That video is the best video of the internet. Do people know that? Oh, Pioladitingancia? Yeah. On, uh, on, on Instagram. Is he a ba? No, he's, he's- Him and that African dude, have you seen that African? Yeah, who's like- Dude, who like goes on a Nigeria's, uh, Got Talent? Talent, yeah, yeah, yeah. <laugh> The, the- I am 37 years old. Right. <laugh> <laugh> Uh, yeah just look up, uh, you know I no fucking baby. Yeah. And that'll come up. So. It shouldn't be funny because it's- Because it's a marro thing? Yeah. Yeah. They suffer from dwarfism and it's not funny but it's also very funny. <laugh> Well what's weird is that guy, he leans into it so much, like I follow him on all his social media because I just love his whole style and his, the way he spells Connecticut, uh, in SnapChat. <laugh> <laugh> Is Conucricut. <laugh> Uh, but he, but he doesn't give a fuck anyway. This guy Jonathon, he's from the Dominican. But yeah, like it, on his Instagram, he's always like doing collabs with other quote on quote, Instagram comedians. Mm. And they'll just be like, you know putting him in diapers and he's like doing, I'm like. Ah, come on bro. There's like everybody. Have some respect for yourself. Yeah he but again, I'm like you know, he, he realizes it's got him like a million followers on Instagram. Right. That's true. Like then some social media people just be like, that's my thing and it's just problematic. Get your money how you get your money. Yeah. Does he have body hair, like in the diaper? Nah, nah. No? Huh. Nah. So he, he still just looks like a- Jack, why is that your first questions? <laugh> Yeah, yeah. I'm just curious though. Like how accurate. I'm curious about his condition. Is he smooth? <laugh> It's not just that he is a little person, he looks like a- He looks like a child. Yeah, yeah. He looks like a five year old. He looks like a child, he does looks like a child. No, yeah, it's like, like Emmanuel Lewis, the same sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, no, he has no facial hair. But like yo, it's funny because in those videos he's like, he's drinking a beer in the car and shit. Right. <laugh> Like he's always, he brings a hookah with him everywhere. Smoking, yeah. Yeah. Constantly smoking. Yeah, I was just thinking that, that would be weird if he was wearing a diaper and like he just had the torso of like- Oh right, yeah. A 40 year old man, <laugh> like just like, yeah. No, total dad bod. Yeah. Have you all seen that little kid trap rapper from Atlanta, that's been like popping all over the internet last week? No. Uh huh. I can't remember his name, it's like Little something but- No, really? He's like a- It's little something? <laugh> He's a child. And it's a video of him drinking a 40, while driving a car down- Oh shit. Down the highway. <laugh> Wow. I don't know why that shit is so funny to me. It shouldn't be funny because- Because it's so illegal. That's why. It is very illegal, <laugh> on so many different levels. I think it's yeah, it's, it's the idea of a kid who lu, could give less of a fuck about anything. Yeah. Right, yeah he raps about like skipping school to sell, to sling drugs. It's funny as fuck to me. Wow. It shouldn't be funny but it is. Yeah, get it how you live. Here's something that is overrated. Wow, okay so, why don't you take over the show? <laugh> What is something that's overrated? Season three of Love. Oh, okay. Okay, listen all right. I have, I've tried you know all these people were tweeting at me like, Yeah, Edgar finish it off, finish it off. And I tried. I think and this is no shade towards Judd Apatow but man does that nigga go out of his way to make his shows white. White. Like he goes out. Oof. Of his so there are some like easy characters that could just be black people. Yeah. Like I think that Matt Besser is very funny but if you're gonna have a tour bus guide with an attitude, that's a black woman role, easy. Yeah. <laugh> Right, right, right. Easy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you gonna give it to Matt Besser, who I do think is very, very funny. He was. From the original four. Uh, it's just like man, that show just tries its hardest to be white. Yeah, I mean that, that's, that was one of the reasons. The first season I was like, oh this is cool I, I like this take on like you know what romance is to this generation. mm-hmm <affirmative>. But then yeah, like when season two happened, I was like, oh did, I, I don't know it was one of those shows that, aside from the first season just to know what it was about, it didn't keep me like hooked that I was like, oh I need to see season two or I need to see season three. Yeah. I was like all right, I get it. One of the only black characters, serves food to everybody on set. Jesus Christ. Yeah. You mean like off camera? <laugh> Yeah, he does. <laugh> I think so yeah. It's the dude who does crafty. But I don't know, maybe I'm being too hard on the show though. No I mean, I think, I mean people like it. I've, I for what even aside from that, I think just as from the narrative of it, it just didn't really have me hooked past that first season. Yeah. Although there are a lot of good other characters, right? Yeah. But yeah. It's funny. I just watched my first episode of Love, uh, earlier like the, uh, this week or last week. How is it watching it being married? Uh, it's not that. Like out of that dating sphere? I was just, yeah I guess there's like really very low stakes because I'm just like ah that, that looks like it sucks. But, uh. Right. <laugh> <laugh> But yeah, my only impression of it was that, uh, the main storyline, like the main characters were pretty hard to watch, uh. They're very unlikable. But then the side characters are awesome, like it, it seems like it's a good opportunity for them to show like, talent from UCB, essentially. Right. Uh, Claudia O'Doherty and, uh- Claudia is funny. And, uh, there's a, her, she has like a coked up boyfriend, who's pretty funny in it. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh. A lot of the scenes they do, when we got together I was like, oh look at all these people from UCB like. Yeah. There's a lot of, Kirby. Yeah. Yeah. Comes through. Yeah it was, uh, it's great when every- The Birthday Boys. When someone is working, when you can be like, yo everybody getting a check off this show, right? Yeah, that is true. <laugh> Right. Shout out to Paul Rust. Right. He did hook up his, and, uh, again I get it, you're gonna put in your friends but I don't know, you know? Maybe it says something to that when a UCB person gets a show and they put up all their friends, all their friends are white. Right. Yeah. Well, I just got an email, I've been cut from Heroine like. <laugh> Oh. <laugh> <laugh> Tell them the truth, talk. Would, would you say that's, uh, an inaccurate representation of the culture that it is depicting? Because it's like about hipster, white people in East Los Angeles. No, it's not inac, it's not inaccurate. I just wish that there was like, insecure is dope but like, I mean I'm not from there. You know what I mean? Right. I'm not from that side of town. Right. I do think that at times, we as- associate Silver Lake or Echo Park with white people. But there's a, there's a people of color crew out here that's standing strong. Uh, yeah. Right. You know what I mean? Right. We stand in lines for, uh, shortstop too, you know what I'm saying? Right. <laugh> <laugh> For your overpriced. Overpriced rigs, yeah. <laugh> <laugh> All right. But also too, I think when you look at those areas too, they're, I mean they're mostly Hispanic. You know what I mean? They are and those people aren't in the show. And like yo, if you grew up there, you have the neighbor who is like, I used to have this neighbor in Silver Lake. Yeah. Who had so many like Mt. Dew refrigerators, like you know promotional refrigerator cases. Right. That he would disassemble and was like making one massive refrigerator, he always kept telling me. Yeah. Uh, but you know like they're quarky people if you live in there. Yeah. Like they're also many people who like are of those neighborhoods. 100%. Because those are gentrified as fuck now. There's a house on Virgil and Fountain that clearly stole the McDonald's sign, from the McDonald's on Fountain and Sunset. <laugh> Which is right next to it. Wait, what do you mean clearly stole it? Like it has a gigantic McDonald's M attached to the house. <laugh> <laugh> <laugh> And I'm like you guys clearly got this from the McDonald's a block a way. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, they're like the one, oh the McDonald's that's missing their M, nah, nah that is, that's not that one. <laugh> <laugh> Like you know, so it would be refreshing. Like I love You're the Worst. I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm liking Love. But it would be refreshing to see a show about these neighborhoods, that reflected the people that live there. Yeah. Yeah, we're getting there, I think. Yeah, well we'll see. And there's so many talented pe- people of color that. So maybe I'll just say Judd Apatow is overrated, as a producer of shows. There you go, there you go. Yeah, um, and then finally what is a myth? What's something people believe to be true, that you know to be false, based on personal experience. Absolutely. Uh, this one is, I mean it's not shade at it but on the Culture Kings you'll hear a take about a certain island from someone who, uh, you know isn't familiar with that island very much. And it's the idea that Haiti is this broke ass nation. I, I challenge anyone to go to Haiti. Is that Donald Trump that said that? You got the President on Culture Kings? <laugh> Damn, damn man. I have compared this person to DT before and it didn't go so well. <laugh> Um. We'll call him CT. <laugh> <laugh> From the Real World? Yeah, from the Real World. Uh. Real World, Road Rules Challenge, CT from Boston. Yeah, CT, absolutely. I mean it's yeah. But, uh, that Haiti is this broke ass nation. Uh, go to Haiti and some of the most beautiful fucking places in the world are there. Uh, the mountains there are very beautiful. The beaches there are very beautiful, very good water. Very good food. Very good culture. Uh, and I just like you know, I think that the media only talks about black nations when bad things are happening. Right. Yeah. And I think that people who walk away with these takes are at the fault of the media. And if the media could do a better job of representing these places. Like you know like the idea that people have, that Africa is just like a waste land of child soldiers. Like chaos, right. Which is like what, when Zimbabwe is like fucking dope. Right. And has way better urban spots, then a lot of places where these niggas live. And, uh, so the myth that black nations are like you know these struggle, these struggle pots. Right. I'm, I'm kind of over it. Yeah. Yeah, well I mean sure. Yeah, there is a certain level of, uh, financial economic instability in these places. But that doesn't tinge the day-to-day life experience of these people. Yeah, go to Jacmel and it's more beautiful than any place you've ever been to in your life. This is facts. Okay. That's Haiti? Yeah, that's in Haiti, that's where my father is from, in Haiti. Was it a small town or what was it like? Yeah, it's a small town. Nice, uh. He is a small town boy, living in a lonely world. mm-hmm <affirmative>. <laugh> Uh, that was beautiful man. Thank you. But, uh- Took the midnight train going anywhere. Yeah. Uh. Well, there's no trains in Haiti. Yeah. <laugh> <laugh> Okay. Took the midnight van. The midnight yeah, the midnight. Come on, that's not the future. Midnight trucks though. I didn't say anything about trains. <laugh> <laugh> I said it's beautiful. <laugh> All right, let's get into the stories of the day. Uh, we wanted to start out with one that's kind of becoming bigger and bigger. Uh, there was a serial bomber, like old-timey Batman style. A serial bomber, like terrorizing the town of Austin. Uh, you know and specifically, uh, the first three victims were people of color. Uh, and two of the bombs seemed specifically targeted at the people who, uh, were killed by them. Um, and then one of them was just somebody who I think found it and was carrying it somewhere else, the older woman. But, uh, so all three of the first three victims were people of color. And then yesterday, uh, two 20 something white guys were injured but not killed, uh, by a tripwire induced bomb, that blew up in Southwest Austin, which I don't know much about Austin. Oh what, two white dudes got killed by this bomb? Right, <laugh> yeah. We gotta stop talking about it. Yeah, that's true actually. They didn't get killed. They didn't get killed. Oh they didn't get killed. Right. No, yeah they just got injured. I'll wait. I'll save my outrage. Yeah and the, the two, yeah it, it's, Jack brought up sort of like how when the first guy was killed, the coverage was very weird from Fox. Yeah, uh, so I, I was Googling around about this last week because we thought it was crazy that three people had been blown up by a serial bomber. Like the Unabomber, people pry don't remember this but, uh, when I was a kid. Unabomber was tight. Unabomber was- I mean. The hottest shit, no it was, uh, the Unabomber was like scary as fuck. It was everywhere though. Yeah. Yeah. It was and so, and also he would like send out a bomb like every like couple months maybe. And like, this dude was like, uh, whoever's doing this in Austin sent out three bombs within the space of like a couple weeks. And had already like killed two people. But so I was Googling around about it yesterday and, er, uh, last week. And Fox News covered the first victim of the Austin Serial Bomber, in a way that was basically like, Eh, he probably did it himself, look at this guy. And they have like a mugshot picture of him, where he looks like kind of crazy. Jesus. And, uh, yeah, the title of the article is, Texas Man Killed by quote, Device at Home, identified as police prob if he constructed it. That's how they covered that story. Right. Uh, and then you know. Yeah, I think it seems like now that it's like four bombs, the cops are now doing the, Okay, clearly you want something. So. Right. What is it? Holler at us. Having like conversations that are like coded. There was like one where yesterday they were like, Clearly, uh, you know people who can like help with this or. They, they were referring to the reward in a weird way. And they were like, He'll know what we're talking about. And it, it was just like one of those weird sort of cryptic conversations, where the police and the bomber believe they're in like locked in this secret conversation or something. Right, mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, it's just a all around fucking crazy story. And this is all happening while South by Southwest is happening down there, in Austin. Right. Um. And people like, the what? Shows got canceled too because of it, right? Uh, yeah, a Roots show. I'm surprised more shows didn't get canceled. But, uh, yeah, the Roots canceled a show because of it. Well that's because they're like, oh they'll be a lot of black people there. So we, yeah. Well no, somebody called specifically a, uh, bomb threat in. Ah, fuck. And they caught the person who caught, who called the bomb threat in. But he- Were they just fucking around? Yeah, basically. It was Jimmy Fallon. <laugh> They were just like oh this person has, <laugh> this person does not have the expertise to build these bombs. Right. So that's the crazy thing is that, they're saying at first they were like, Hey, you know, uh, serial bomber, you should really be careful because, uh, all, these things you're messing around with are pretty like volatile and unstable and you're probably gonna kill yourself if you keep trying to make bombs like this. And then the trip wire bomb, uh, they were like, Oh shit, this, this person's like. Yeah. This guy knows what he's doing. Yeah. Uh, an expert. And then- Well then- So then I mean, I don't know, maybe my father watched too much NCIS around me as a child. But if this dude has the knowledge to make these kinds of bombs. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Isn't this when we start going like, all right. Let's whittle it down, people whittle it down. People with explosive experience. Yeah. I mean yeah, uh, from watching the movie Speed, uh, would also lead you to believe that obviously the sophistication of the bomb, must of been someone from the bomb squad. Maybe a disgruntled person who had retired from the force since then, uh, but we don't know. Yeah. Uh, it's weird but I think what's interesting is the whole like, okay you clearly have a message, what is it? Because that's really how the Unabomber came undone, is that he had like this crazy what, 35,000 word like anti-technology screed he wrote. You call it crazy. Yeah. <laugh> I call it, uh, nuts. <laugh> Yeah, I mean looking at what? Yeah. Jack. <laugh> But yeah, he, like he was to the New York Times and the Washington Post. And he was like, Yo, I will stop if you just post this. And they were like, and the FBI was like, Yo please just do whatever the fuck he wants. And then that's what led to like I think his brother or the, his sister-in-law being like, Oh I think. That sounds a lot like Ted. That sounds like my brother, that sounds a lot like Ted. That sounds a lot like Thanksgiving dinner at my house. Yeah, right, right, right. Like 12 years ago. <laugh> That motherfucker is insufferable. Yeah. So I mean it, this could be, I mean I again, it seems like a weird tack where they're like, Hey call us up. Because if you're like, the logic of like someone who's a criminal would be like, Why the fuck would I call you guys? Yeah. And it's also, uh, like I mean, I don't know, I don't wanna use the word phenomenal. But like, how is he pulling this off or she you know, <laugh> I don't wanna say that terrorists can only be men. Yeah, she. You know, I'm a feminist. But history has shown us, la, mostly men perpetrate this right? Hey listen, you know I'm not gonna sit here and say a woman can't make a good bomb. Yeah, setting off bang-bangs in America is- You know what I'm saying? A time honored tradition of the white man. I'm with her. <laugh> <laugh> <laugh> And, um, I just think that, how are they pulling this off, in social media time? Like how are they not? Right. I don't know, I just feel like technology like, I can't buy shit without. Who knows, yeah. My phone telling me like. Well that's the thing. This dude has, must have so many bomb ads on his like Instagram right now. <laugh> Exactly. Like his Instagram must be nothing but fertilizer ads. <laugh> Must be very careful, uh, but yeah I mean he, to build a bomb that is set off by a tripwire in public, like how does nobody see you? Yeah. Yeah. And like take a picture of you. Hey but Austin is a weird place. Yeah. Maybe they're like, oh it's a performance art thing. Because this guys keeping Austin weird. <laugh> <laugh> Uh, but yeah. I mean the thing, <laugh> the and like- Oh yeah, he involved in that. All the other bombs were devices that were left on people's porches. So like, I mean. Who's not seeing this? The person presumably left it there. I, yeah, I'm sure now because we're like, I think like 500 people are on the case. Like they'll eventually, they'll, they may be able to you know put together some kind of surveillance footage. Because I feel like more and more people. Even like people at their own homes, they have like those Ring cameras and stuff in front of their door. That maybe they can get something together but who knows. Yeah, uh, all right we're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back. Guys in the next 60 seconds you're gonna learn how the Flatiron School can change your life. What if you go over 60 seconds? Forever, anything beyond the 60 seconds will not count. Okay, so starting now? Uh, no, it was like 10 seconds ago. Okay, well the next 50 seconds. You're wasting my time. Oh I'm just saying. The Flatiron School will teach you everything you need to get a job in code, data science or design. But they'll also prepare you for the jobs that don't even exist yet. Future proof jobs. You'll learn by making things, you'll learn by breaking things. And discovering how the future is being built. Like this. FlatironSchool.com, slash podcast. Read the reviews and sign up for a free intro course. Oh. Enrollment is now open. It's time to future proof yourself and change things. Starting with you. Starting with you. Me? Yeah. And the listener. And the listener, yes. FlatironSchool.com, slash podcast. Boom. And we're back and, uh, we wanted to talk about a company, uh, called Cambridge Analytica. Oh, oh oh. That I mean a name like that, they've gotta be smart and trustworthy, am I right? mm-hmm <affirmative>. I know that company. Yeah, so, uh. They came up with the low energy Twitter brand for me. Oh did they? <laugh> <laugh> <laugh> Then you get work. You, you consult with them? <laugh> They came up with, they came up with that idea and they said, Hey, start saying Oingo boingo on every podcast you're on. Nice. <laugh> Oingo boingo, low energy mob, low energy gang. Yeah. <laugh> They're gonna love that. So, uh, and really I mean, this is a small price to pay for a free platform, where you can pretend like photos of former co-worker's food and your family friend's ugly children are, are, uh, enjoyable. <laugh> And pretend to like them. Wow, who are you talking about? Uh, no one, no one. No, call out names, come on don't be afraid, don't be afraid. Afraid. But, uh, apparently so, you know those quizzes that people were taking like three years ago. Where it was like, find out which member of Sex in the City you are or, uh, apparently there were some that you could get paid a small amount to take. Mm, mm. Uh, those were actually being collected by, uh, various people. Usually they claimed that they were for academic purposes. And as the name Cambridge Analytica would suggest, uh. Oh Cambridge, of course. Cambridge, where colleges are. Yeah. <laugh> Um, but, uh, apparently they sold this to a marketing firm, that then used it to you know help the Trump campaign sort of target people. They bought over 50 million raw profiles, of people. And they had specifically targeted the questions, as a way to like find out very specific things. Like were they passionate people, were they, uh, easy to convince about things. Were they religious? Like these very specific sort of, uh, fulcrums that people's personalities turn on, that tell these experts like how easy they're going to be to manipulate with certain appeals. Right because they're like, oh this person is a fan of the occult, based on these things. Right. Or like they're a introverted religious person or extroverted liberal or whatever. Yeah. Right. Uh, because it's weird too. Uh, like those psychographics they put together, uh, they yeah, you could find out like how religious you were, agreeable, neurotic, spiritual, depressed. And like also tell, can tell like if you had sensationalist interest or if you were fair minded and things like this. So yeah, it makes sense then at that point, you can tailor like a media plan, to like get this person to like either begin going down a click hole of like all these different articles and things like that. Or you know sort of paint their reality in a different way, based on their info. Right. I don't know call me crazy but how kind of them to make that kind of effort, you know what I'm saying? <laugh> <laugh> Like I don't know. Thank you for showing so much interest in me. Right. No one really thinks about me this way. Right. So like the fact that someone is out there like being like, what is Edgar like? Right. Yeah. Well that's really considerate guys. I'm Like wow. Uh, like a- I'm like a religious, uh, uh, self conscious extrovert. Right. Yeah. Thank you, now that, now I can go to my therapist with that. I, I will on Thursday. I'm guessing a lot of what they learned from those 50 million raw profiles are like, okay so these are the 5 million who we wanna focus our spiel on. Oh absolutely. Yeah. You know, like it's not like you get 50 million and you're like, okay this is how we convert all 50 million into Trump supporters. It's just you are able to convert a very small number of them, into like hyper partisan Trump supporter. Right. Um, on NPR this morning they were reporting this and saying and I mean, these sorts of tools have not been shown to be effective. So like I think this is overrated or at most this is like a, uh, a good marketing tool for Cambridge Analytica. Who is saying that? To seem like, uh, one of the talking heads on NPR, on, uh, their Up First Podcast. Huh. Um, I just, I think it's misguide, like there's a reason that a- advertisers used to pay so much money, just to get like what your address was and like whether you preferred like this type of coffee or that type of coffee. Right. 1000%. They would pay so much money and there's just so much data, that is worth so much money to people, available on social media. That I, I think this is, first of all, I think it was probably more influential than a lot of people wanna believe during the election. And I also think it's still being used to this day. I mean when, when you look at like the ways that people are you know, going in completely opposite directions and living in completely different, uh, realities. And you combine the access to information that these companies have, with the fact that we only want information that- mm-hmm <affirmative>. You know contributes to our existing viewpoint. And I mean we found out, last week that, uh, the alt-right is specifically targeting people who, uh, suffer from depression. Which makes- Right. Tons of sense but you have all of the ingredients that you need. You have the access to the information and you have the people who are willing to use that information. And be cynical about that information, to manipulate people. And I, I don't think it's a small thing. Well it's just really crazy to think of sort of like the, the way it worked like since Cambridge University wouldn't work with Cambridge Analytica, to use like the cover of academic research to get this information. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Then they just found like that, this hack, this Doctor Kogan guy. Right. Who worked at Cambridge, who is also like an Associate Professor at the University of Saint Petersburg. Right. Who has like really interesting ties to Russia where he's like, oh they just made me a, <laugh> an associate pro- Professor when I was on a vacation. Right. Which I don't know how many times you have gotten a job, while you were on vacation. Yeah. Uh, if so, please tell me what your travel tips are, uh, but anyway. Uh, like that, that guy was then as the, the mastermind to create like the, the sort of like, My Digital Life App and things like that. That use the sort of Facebook loophole of saying, Yeah, we'll give you access to all these people's things if you, if you promise it's for academic use. And then they use 270,000 people, who signed up wittingly, to get 50 million people's information. Jesus. And, and it's like you were saying, like, uh, Jack, like just with, it's not just things that live directly on Facebook. Like if you take a BuzzFeed quiz, that even has a Facebook bug on the thing, they're already gonna know that you went there. Yeah. Like they, they have so much other. Anything that you link your Facebook to. Yeah. Which I link my Facebook to everything. Yeah. I don't use Facebook, not even because I was even paranoid of it, it was just, it wasn't the way I was interested in seeing information. So I just really stopped using it. But now to know, I mean I've already, I, I've, I've used it for years, so who knows what kind of shit they already know. Yeah. But yeah, it, it's interesting now to see that they've taken something that has like nearly, you know the amount of users at like an organized religion does, like around the world and you can now fully just kind of weaponize that shit. Yeah and, uh, yeah like you were saying, you know super producer Sophie Lichterman, earlier was like, I've never taken a Facebook quiz. And then she went to BuzzFeed and took this quiz, uh, Which Rap Song are You. And, uh, she's 99 problems, just in case you guys are curious. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, and, uh, then when she pressed share at the end of it, like I told her to press share on Facebook. Uh, it already had her logged in to Facebook. So like Facebook is collecting all that data. Right. Right. Whether you realize it or not. Of course they're not. Whether you're doing it as a, you know whether your coming from Facebook or not, Facebook is constantly, uh, as long as you're logged in to Facebook, anywhere on the internet, they're paying attention to you. I just wish they'd be honest about it, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like I'm, I'm okay with being spied on, just tell a boy, you know what I mean? Right. Like I'll leave something for you. <laugh> I'll leave a nice little note. Some dirty pictures. And I just, I don't know like, how much of this information can actually be weaponized? Like you know what I mean? Like I, I, I connect Facebook to a lot of things. Right. For example when, uh, Pornhub had the, uh, the little ad where you could get a free premium for the day of Valentine's day, which I thought was very kind for Pornhub. Very romantic. Uh, I connected it to my Facebook and I was like, what, why do they want, what are they, what does Pornhub want outta my Facebook? And then I found out. They know everything. Nah they're just like recommending very specific porn to me. You like those Japanese nudu, nudu videos. And I'm like, how did you guys know that from the shit that I like on Facebook? <laugh> Yeah. <laugh> They're nudu, nudus. It's like where people just get greased up. Oh yeah. <laugh> <laugh> And like slide, like slide all over each other. <laugh> But I mean, the reason it can be weaponized is because, it can find people who are, uh, uh, exceptionally vulnerable to this kind of disinformation or misinformation campaign. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. And that's like, clearly to someone who's like a reasonable, uh, cynical person, has enough reasonable cynicism could be like, Oh this is bullshit. Or whatever like, they're not as easily, uh, pulled into the trap, as let's say- Well thank you for thinking I'm on that side. Well, from what I understand. I mean granted I did get you to eat that Tide Pod earlier. <laugh> Uh, but like I think when you look at people who are, yeah sort of isolated older people. Yeah. Who have conservative view points like, they're like, Oh, we can really energize this person. Or even on the other side, if it's someone who's on the super like left and believes all kinds of conspiratorial things, you can sort of begin to seed this misinformation into their reality. And then you, then you have completely gaslit this person. And that's where the weaponization comes in. But then is there any opportunity to like, you know I don't know, counter this? Like is there an opportunity for like you know, us three to like put in some money, get some geeks together. Right but then- And find these people and then be like. But then we use it to our own ends. That's true. Like that, that's the thing is that, there's no longer really any- Good guys. presumption of you know, objectivity. Right. Because everybody is just in this sort of advertising, uh, you know social media, maelstrom where, you know all these different pieces of data are coming at us, whether we realize they are you know, being used to a specific end or not. Yeah, true. Um, and I mean, so the guy who, uh, is the whistle blower, a guy named Christopher Wylie, uh, Canadian gentleman. <laugh> Hey Canada, ba-wa-wa-waa. Yep, shout out to Canada. Change that name bro. Uh, he's a guy who, uh, who his background was working for, uh, Trudeau's party la, the labor party I believe. Liberals. Oh wow. The liberal party. Uh, and, uh, also on Obama's early campaign, I think 2008 campaign and 2012. And so, he had the experience with people using, uh, online data and you know social media effectively, in the ways that social media was used back then. Uh, but then he was like, they basically took that and ran with it and like put it on steroids by you know, basically scrapping all of these troves of information that Facebook was giving people access to. And also of the stuff they did wasn't against Facebook's rules, at the time. Right. Facebook just didn't give a shit and in fact Facebook, like part of their sales pitch is this, it's the unprecedented access to you know people's personal information. Man, uh, that, you just fucking got me in my head so deep. <laugh> <laugh> Uh, uh oh. Hey why you delete, you know once you, you can't just delete the Facebook app and it's gone. No. It's you're okay, well. Ah. Nice try. Um, years ago, when I was in college and I smoked a lot of marijuana. Mm. Some might argue more marijuana then I smoke today. In college, no way? I said that the social network. Ah huh. Is the Citizen Kane of today. mm-hmm <affirmative>. And everyone laughed at me. <laugh> And they laughed at me and they said, This fucking stoner. Right, right. Now hearing the far reach that Facebook has, similarly to how Citizen Kane kind of describes the effects that the media had at that time. I just wanna say I was right. That's it. <laugh> Yeah. You were although, they probably didn't go far enough, right? Nah. Like it, if you know. Yeah, no, they didn't critic, they only said he's a douche. That's- Yeah. They didn't really say, look at the power that you just. That's act one of, of Citizen Kane and now we have to get to the part where, Mark Zuckerberg's face is like projected giant behind him, as he's addressing large crowds and. Exactly. Well now, I mean now he's been summoned by like every like, you know politician is like, get your ass in here right now because like, what's going on over at your company? Yeah. Yeah, so there, uh, stock is plummeting today. Uh, to the point that, it's actually dragging the entire stock market down. Yeah. Because of how badly it's doing, uh. Jesus. Because I mean, I think investors realize, this was the promise of Facebook, was that they, they were going to connect this trove of information about people, that existed online. With their actual identities, that was the thing that didn't exist before Facebook is you know, we were all, we all had these different usernames on different sites or we just didn't login to different sites. And Facebook made it so that people actually connected what they did online, with their identities. And that's an impossibly powerful tool. Like that's a wet dream of everybody who has worked in marketing. When I started at Cracked, like they, so we hired a consultant who was like from the magazine industry. mm-hmm <affirmative>. And he was like this older guy who had worked for Rolling Stone. And they had like this trove of just addresses with people's names. Right. And like they would like pay like $20,000 for that. That's the- Just to like launch a new magazine. But like hit people with mailers. Right, right, right. And it's like junk mail and shit. Like all they had was names and addresses and they were paying like tens of thousands of dollars. Uh, compare that to like the insane amounts of information that you give to these companies just when you're taking a fucking quiz about whether you're Leonardo or Michaelangelo. Man they're paying the wrong people. From the Turtles. What they need to do is start paying the old black woman on the corner, in all these neighborhoods. Because she already knows everybody's shit? Who knows, um, she knows everybody's shit. <laugh> Right. They should be paying her, she'd be like, I'll tell you who voted for Trump. <laugh> Yeah, but she doesn't have those psychographics though. Right. She be like, oh I. She got them psychographics. They're like, Oh I know he's insecure because his girlfriend cheated on him. Uh, about 15 years ago. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. Uh, but yeah with this shit now it's crazy because yeah, you're going from names and addresses to now like, oh I'm trying to target a neurotic introverted men, under the age of 23. Yeah. Or whatever and now you like, boom. Right. And then you can even cut it down, be like who live in the south? mm-hmm <affirmative>. Boom, who live in you know, in these three counties, boom. Yeah, so I for one, bow to our corporate overlords. <laugh> Yeah. So, you know. Hey Facebook, as long as you're gonna send people to the Daily Zeitgeist, we're cool with you. We love it, just use your psychographics to, uh, help us grow our site. Maybe we should get, oh we should try and get Mark Zuckerberg. Yeah. <laugh> Reach guest, reach guest. Yeah. As a goal. No, we could, we could do it. Okay. I'm sure he's not that busy. Uh, one of the great details of, of this. First of all, uh, Cambridge Analytica, we were talking about the name being like so transparently like, they might of well of called it the Harvard Science People, who you can totally trust. <laugh> As, uh, our writer JM McNab put it. Uh, but they were named by, uh, Steve Bannon. Steve Bannon was early involved in this company. Board member. Yeah, board member. Bannon, Bannon. Yeah, uh, and, uh, so this academic that you, who you were talking about, who is still on staff at Cambridge University, uh, Doctor Kogan, he changed his name at one point to Doctor Spectre. <laugh> <laugh> Because he was just like, yo I kind of am in to being an evil- Genius, yeah. Genius. Yeah. That is, then he changed it back apparently somebody was like yo, that's a bad look. Yeah, someone was like, Are you? He's like, You know we're kind of doing some subversive spy shit here right? Right. And he's like, Oh, oh is that obvious? <laugh> Okay nevermind. Should I, should I take off the claw hand? Yeah, right. Right. Should I return that? Right. Oh, oh I'm, yeah, I'm Doctor Kogan. Um, and then, uh, there's also a weird detail where, uh, Russia gets involved in this. We can, uh, use this to transition to our next subject. Uh, but, uh, according to Wylie, the whistleblower, he and Nix, who was the head of the company at the time, were asked to explain their services to a Russian oil company, headed by one of Putin's associates. mm-hmm <affirmative>, mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, uh, Wylie was like, Why are we being asked to talk to them, that makes no sense like. Well. They're like yeah, you're, they're, they're a Russian oil company, like a huge, Lukoil is the name of the company. Right. And they're like but we do work talking about American voters. Right. So, what does Russian oil have, what the fuck? Right, they said why do they need to understand quote, Behavior all micro-targeting in the context of elections. Right, uh, I don't know. Uh, it might depend on I, I doubt those consumers over there have choice between who their oil and gas company is. Right. So it's not like, <laugh> they're gonna be like, Well we wanna make sure like we're getting the best service to our customers. Uh, it, I don't know. I mean maybe you can argue that but it, it seems all very again, there's always that sort of like cloud of Russia hanging over all things like that. Right, so speaking of the cloud of Russia, I mean I sent out a panicked tweet, uh, early Saturday morning. Yes, you did. Being like, yo we might have to come in and record over the weekend because, uh, and linked people to the tweet from Trump's lawyer saying that they needed to fire Mueller, that the Mueller investigation needed to be shut down. Uh, and I think part of my panic came from the fact that, I thought this was a White House lawyer, not just like Trump's personal pal lawyer. Right. Uh, but it, it is just Trump's lawyer. Yeah. Not, uh, one of the official White House lawyers, who's saying this. Um. Yeah, everyone in the White House did a good job of walking that the fuck back. Right, they were like this- Oh no, no, no, no. He's not speaking for anyone besides himself. Well what would you all think though, if he did? Right, so that what it seems. Okay, nevermind, nah yeah, we're walking it back. Yeah, didn't someone say that? Yeah, they walked it back and then Trump spent the weekend talking about how it was a witch hunt. And specifically addressing Mueller. So up to this point he has said it's a witch hunt and said he's innocent. But, uh, he hasn't specifically talked about Mueller and like. Yeah, he kept his name out his mouth. Right, he was you know, because that was what, uh, I'm sure his wiser lawyers had told him to do. They didn't want him to directly antagonize the guy. Yeah. Investigating him. Yeah. And Trump, you know, uh, according to reports, now has, uh, the confidence in his job, uh, to just think that he can go off prompt. Or I, I feel like we keep hearing that. Like they're like, Well now he's really confident, uh, that he doesn't need, uh, the input of associates. Well, well yeah. And he's just going off on his own. Well the more adults that leave the room, you're gonna get shit like this, that his lawyers are pry like, Do not call Robert Mueller out by name, this is possibly, could be used as evidence against you and more obstruction shit. Right. Because they already say like, yo he's up on the, like talking about these investigations and like leaning on people because that can look like a, a pattern with you. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Of trying to obstruct, you know this investigation or just any investigation, into your and actions. Mm, yeah. This shit is getting hot in the right way, you know what I mean? I'm very, very excited Trump is acting like that dude who knows his girl's about to find out he's been cheating. mm-hmm <affirmative>. And he's been like you know, now he's acting all erratic and shit like that. I don't think he's ever not been that dude. <laugh> Because like he's just, he's never done a- He's constantly in that state. Yeah, he's always cheated on his wives. Yeah. He's always cheated at business, he cheats at golf. Right. Like I know somebody who, uh, golfed with him once. And was like, Yo, he just like straight moves his ball to a better location, when he wants to. Ahhh. I love that. And yeah. Every time it comes up it's like, I feel like he's been doing that shit this whole time and it's never gotten rocked. So that I mean, that's his only mode and… <laugh> Yeah. But it's never gotten rocked, he's also, did it all the way to the fucking White House, like he's- Well wait till he does that- <laugh>… the most successful at that mode ever. Props. He'll get caught and he'll do the Dave Chappelle defense and he'll say, Oh, I'm sorry I didn't know I couldn't do that. <laugh> Because, good defense. Life has told me up to this point that I couldn't. It's a good defense. Right, um, but I don't know, uh, it also seems like there are now more and more people who are getting behind the, well this whole Mueller thing is you know corrupt and, uh, Andrew McCabe, uh, who was the Deputy. The Deputy Director. Director of the FBI, uh, was fired over the weekend. And now there's this just all out push by conservative and right-wing media. Which I do like draw a, a distinction between like right-wing, which is like Fox News and shit like that. And then like, conservatives, which is like National Review. And National Review is even like kind of starting to go in on the Mueller investigation, uh, Drudge Report, which I, I would consider to be right-wing. They have a poll up at the top of their page now that says, that 75% of respondents say that yes, Mueller should be fired. To 25% saying no. Right. Uh, granted his polls are wildly unscientific and they are taken by people who come to The Drudge Report, which is a super conservative. And I'm sure you can vote multiple times. You can and, uh, I'm sure it's very easy to hijack by bots. Um, and in fact, that's something I learned over the weekend. So there is a comment section under the poll and they are just wild comments about like, I'm ready to start, uh, civil war two and kill these liberals, who like think men are women and women are men. Ah huh. And like just straight up like. Ah huh. The, your nightmare of what like right-wing people would be like. And I had also seen that in the comment section of The Hill, I think I'd even talked about it on this. Yeah, the Hill gets some interesting takes. That The Hill's comments are just crazy. Yeah. Like far right-wing, like almost like it's somebody satirizing the right-wing. And somebody pointed out in the comment section on The Hill, they were like, somebody was arguing back with a right-wing commenter. And somebody came in and was like, Yo, you know these are Russian bots, right? Right. Like this, basically The Hill just has a terrible moderating system. And so Russian bots just come in and like flood The Hill with bots. How do you, how do you stop that though? How do you even begin to stop that? You have to basically bring your comment, uh, moderation in-house and like basically create your own strategy for doing that. We had that problem at Cracked, that like at a certain point, all of a sudden comments like started being taken over by people being like, Hey do you wanna have sex with me? <laugh> Right. Kind of people and it was like, oh okay. So it was like porn bots. <laugh> I got you, I got, I got a method now. Right. I got a method. Yeah. You guys ready for it? Ah huh, what's your method? You ask them, Yo Sprite or 7 Up? <laugh> And if they say 7 Up, that's a fucking bot, that's all. <laugh> <laugh> There is only one choice. <laugh> And that's okay. And that is to obey your fucking thirst. Right. Obey your thirst, uh, this podcast is sponsored by Sprite, yes. Edgar loves Sprite. For first time listeners, Edgar is a unofficial Sprite spokesperson, looking to become the official Sprite spokesperson. Yeah, we'll see what happens with Mueller though because you know, again this is the thing we were also talking about, is like the rep, like at least a few republicans did come on and be like, hey dah, dah, dah, dah, don't even start talking about possibly firing him. Like Lindsey Graham was straight up like, if you do that, that would be the beginning of the end of his presidency. I wouldn't hold my breath to see if Lindsey Graham- Right. Found his you know. Slipperiest motherfucker. Yeah, uh. And then also like you know James Lankford, like a lot of people. Trey Gowdy said something, which is funny because he's on his way out anyway. Right. So I don't, like he's like, Oh if you're, if you're innocent. Well you're not acting like you're innocent. Yeah, I mean that was like probably my favorite quote was from Trey Gowdy, <laugh> like the- Which, is wild. Yeah. That's a wild statement. mr Benghazi, mr Benghazi himself. But he was just like, uh, you know talking to the President's lawyer, he was like, If your client is innocent, fucking act like it man. Oh yeah, act like it, right. And, uh, that is, you know that. I'm, I'm telling you man, I'm telling you, he's got the donuts like here. Well it's getting to be. Have, have you guys ever seen that Jerry Springer episode, where the dude comes home and he has powder. There has been thousands of Jerry. <laugh> What do you mean, that Jerry Springer episode? The dude comes home and has powder on his dick and his girl's like, Yo, what's going on? And he said, Ah, I put a donut on my dick. <laugh> <laugh> Versus what? <laugh> It was a condom. Okay. It was from a condom, it was powder from a like. Oh yeah. Remember how back in the day, condoms used to be powdery? Man, I don't know, I never use them. <laugh> <laugh> Well he said, I put a donut on my dick. <laugh> It's so stupid. And I think this is where Trump's at, is like you know, he's just like scrambling for his, he's scrambling bro. Well yeah well but he's in a position where he doesn't even have to give the excuses, he can just dead the investigation. But I don't even talked about it because it's a witch hunt from the jump, so. Right and I'm having a hard time figuring out if that is actually being like taken up by the right-wing or if you know, sane conservatives are being persuaded by that argument or not. That this is a witch hunt. That this is a witch hunt and that it's time to fire Mueller, for some reason. Can I speak directly to the conservatives? Yeah. Nobody puts a donut and their dick. <laugh> <laugh> That's enough said. Enough said, final word. All right, all right, we are gonna take a break, we'll be right back. Miles you've heard of Robinhood, haven't you? Yes, my favorite Kevin Costner film and Morgan Freeman as the Painted Man. Great accent work by him, but no. Oh. I am actually talking about a, a phone application. Ah yes, okay. Robinhood is actually an investing app, that lets you buy and sell stocks, uh, options, cryptos, you know. Oo. All, all your market stuff. See I like that because I see a lot of people getting involved with cryptos and the market, what have you. mm-hmm <affirmative>. But I grew up in a time and place and culture where, I really don't know anything about the stock market. Yeah. So, is? Like what am I, a fancy millionaire? That's exactly where Robinhood comes in. <laugh> They strive to make financial services work for everyone, not just the wealthy. Okay, so it's easy to use. That's my thing. It's so easy to use. Because I look at these letters, I don't know what it's about, I don't know what these numbers mean. And it's all commission free, super easy to use. A perfectly designed app. Uh, and Robinhood is giving listeners a free stock, like Apple, Ford or Sprint. Oo. To help build your portfolio guys. Okay. So sign up at Daily.Robinhood.com, that's Daily.Robinhood.com. Get you your free stock. And we're back and we wanted to check in really quickly with the weekend box office. Uh, because Black Panther is- Is it still number one? Still number one. Oh, it is. There we go. It has gone from successful to sooo successful. Successful. <laugh> <laugh> Very, very, very, very, super successful. The successful- But you know black people can't still lead movies, you know what I'm saying? Right, so that, I mean this has to officially just dead that idea, right? Yeah. I mean, who knows, until like they use some like moral licensing moment, where they'll do another film that's a predominantly black cast and it doesn't do well. They're like, okay well then I guess we have to you know circle the wagons again. Right. And it'd be like. I mean that, that movie exists, it's called A Wrinkle In Time. Yeah. Is it not doing well in the box office? It's doing well in the box office, it's doing quite poorly critically. It did okay, yeah. Yeah, well that's a whole other thing. I mean, uh, I, I saw it, did you see it? No. I liked that there, the message of like, of inclusion and empathy and all that was in there. But as a film like narratively speaking, like I was a little confused. And I felt like I'm not, I don't know, I don't wanna talk bad about it. Do it. Because I like Ava DuVernay and I think the work she does is great. And what this film means is good but I was having trouble being like, this was a great film. Here's who I blame and I've been saying it all day, the studio. I don't believe that the studio let Ava DuVernay make the kind of movie that she wanted to make. No, I doubt, no it's Disney and it was a huge budget. Huge budget, I mean we're talking about toys and toys and toys for days. I'm pretty sure they were like, we're not taking our hands off of this movie. Right. In the way that I could see Marvel letting Ryan Coogler get away with some things. Well but, but that's still Disney though. That's also Disney though too. Yeah. But it's not. And also, just as much at stage. But it's a different brand. At, at stake. It's a different brand though. Yeah, Reel Time has 40% on Rotten Tomatoes. Yeah, it got. I'm telling you. It got kind of waxed. It got smacked. No it did, I mean and you know, um. Anyway the, the song by Sade is lit though. But, uh, I do wanna talk about Black Panther because I think the last time I had checked in with it was, you know opening weekend. It did really, really well but it was like the third biggest Marvel movie, uh, opening ever. And now because it's just continued to do insanely well, it's the first movie since Avatar, to be number one at the box office for five straight weeks. Oh shit. Uh, it is going to be the biggest Marvel movie ever. Uh, and it's already over a billion dollars internationally. Uh, I don't know, it's just, it's become, it's not just like a big movie, it is like one of the biggest movies of all time. Yeah. Which is crazy. It's so big that Marvel has moved up Infinity War. Right. To, to get on this high. That momentum, that wave, yeah. Right, um. I, I do think this is interesting because this weekend there was a movie you know, Tomb Raider came out and we can talk about that in a second. But, uh, a movie called, uh, I Can Only Imagine or something. <laugh> Uh, a, a Christian movie came out. Is it, oh is it based on the song, I can only imagine? That's right, yeah. When that day comes. So. And I find myself. Sing. Sorry, I was a, <laugh> a Christian kid. So. Yeah. Oh I didn't hear that, we didn't get that song in my church. So, this is a, uh, movie that made 17 million dollars this weekend, at the box office, even though nobody was predicting it would make anything really. Uh, and it's, uh, the story of a singer of a popular Christian rock song. Uh, and he tells the story of his abusive childhood and how he came to sing that song, um. What's the name of the band? Is it, uh? Uh, MercyMe. MercyMe, there you go, I remember them. Surrounded by your presence, what will my heart sing? <laugh> Will I dance for you Jesus. Oo. And you grew up like very religious? Very religious. Yeah. That is correct, that's correct. Yeah. I only know the old school songs like- Let me hear it. And he will raise you up. Oh yeah. On the eagles wings. On the eagles wings. Yeah, I remember that one, man. You know that kind of shit, uh, were you there when they, uh, crucified the lord. I remember that's a hymn. Ahhh, ahhh, sometimes it causes me to tremble. Nah. See that what happens when you go to a- Nah, nah man, I was up on that hill song, you know what I'm saying, that Chris Tomlin. Oh wow, you got the good shit. You know what I'm saying? <laugh> But I think I- Sorry, back to this movie. Live house. Well I just wanted to, I wanted to make the comparison that Christian movies, every once in a while there'll be a Christian movie that'll just like blow up and people will be like, wait I didn't even know this movie existed. Right. Wait, Greg Kinnear is in this. Like fireproof. Yeah, exactly and, uh. Or God's not dead. It, they always get killed by the critics. It's like at 27 on Metacritic. It reminds me of like Tyler Perry movies. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like when they come out and they just blow up and people are like, What this movie is abominable? And you know they always get smashed on Metacritic and, uh, you know. But they're hitting a underserved demographic I feel like. Right. Um. And it's also just like, your fans are gonna show out for you. Like you know what I mean? Like Tyler Perry's fans don't read variety, being like, I wonder what they thought about this movie? Like- Right. <laugh> Tyler Perry fans are just like, let me see Tyler Perry in a dress. Right. And I'm gonna go home happy. Right. That was worth the 9.95. Yeah. Wow, you're getting tickets for 9.95? Listen, these niggas don't live in LA. <laugh> <laugh> <laugh> Well they're saying with this film, this, uh, at picked through, that 67% female. Ah huh. And 80% over 35. Oh for, I Can Only Imagine? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I can tell you, my mom is about to text me right now and say, Edgar, why don't you like movies like this? <laugh> <laugh> What, does she tell you, that's what you should, you should write movies like that? My mom, whenever I go home, has me sit down and watch Fireproof and say, You can find these people Edgar. I don't even know what Fireproof is, I just, uh, agreed with you. It's another one of those ones. It's another, just about- It's about Israel. That movie, Heaven is Real? Yeah, Heaven is Real. Heaven is Real is another one. Yeah. God's Not Dead, is a very popular one. Right, um. My mom loves that shit. And every time I go home, she convinces me to make those kinds of movies. Right and you're like, oh and you should watch this John Waters film. Yeah. <laugh> And then she gets mad. Right. I remember I tried to convince my mom to watch Lady Bird and she said, Is there cussing? Oh. And I said, A little bit. She said, I'm not going to watch that. Ah man. I said, no it's a good movie about, you know moms. Yeah. You could do, uh, tell her, I'm in Love with a Church Girl, by Ja Rule. Yeah. <laugh> My buddy edited that and it was, the production of that film was a nightmare and that's a faith based film. Is it really? Why is Ja Rule in that movie? Yeah and like dude that, the dude who produced it. Yo the dude who produced it, I don't even know what he says in there, he was like, he like rented a mega church, like up in San Jose. And like got a ton of money from his producers to make it. Dang. He was also into some other shady stuff. But anyway, Ja Rule was in it and his name is Miles in the film, so. I was gonna say, do Christian movies have like a future Black Panther equivalent, where they're going to like have this massive box office, domination, when they combine with like a very, you know well executed blockbuster. I'm sure you could. But then I was really, the passion was basically that, this. No, but I feel like you and you see how like, we just sang like these songs that we were familiar with. Right. From, uh, like the cultural touchstone of Christianity in our childhood or whatever. Right. Like that you could find a way to sort of exploit that nostalgia. Yeah. Coupled with people who are actually, uh, like current, uh, you know, uh, church goers and things like that. And maybe find some overlap. I mean that would be like the finesse Venn diagram move of the century but. Absolutely. Right. Uh, and then real quick, we wanted to talk about the number two movie. So we've talked about Black Panther, number one. And, uh, I Can Only Imagine, number three. Number two was, Tomb Raider. Tomb Raider. The reboot, with Alicia Vikander. Alicia Vikander. Oo. Um, nice. And- Amazing. <laugh> So, uh, the main thing I've been hearing about this is, that you know it's just another Tomb Raider movie. Uh, I guess the original Tomb Raider was the most successful, uh, video game adaptation movie, of all time. Still to this day? Yeah. Oh shit. I'm so sorry to all the Resident Evil fans out there, I tried. Oh man. I went to every opening night for Tomb, uh. Did you? Well, when I was allowed to watch movies, absolutely. Right. Yes, I did. Okay. I mean because I love that franchise and I love Milla. Milla Jovovich, that kept her career going. And her husband, the forgotten P.T. Anderson. Right is that, he's the Director, right? Yeah. Which is why he's like, yeah hey. And his name is P.T. Anderson. Oh really? No? Yeah, it is. He's the other P.T. Anderson. His name is P.T. Anderson. Look it up bro. Wow, that. His name is P.T. Anderson. Is- And everyone was just like, what Paul Thomas Anderson directed the Resident Evil movies? Nah dude, his name won't even show up. His career took a real turn. Um, but so, there is also apparently a controversy going on, uh, on the internet about the casting of Lara Croft and, uh, whether her boobs are too small. Right because yeah. <laugh> Uh, because apparently that was like the main feature of the Lara Croft character. Croft. Lara, I call her Craft, uh, because she's crafty. Well that's wrong, uh. That's my nickname for her. Well you just triggered me. Uh, so the, the story of how she was designed is, she was just like a female Indiana Jones, who was normally proportioned. And then, uh, a designer was like maybe we should give her slightly larger boobs. And so he was trying to increase them by 50% but he increased them by 150%, accidentally. And was like, Oh I'm sorry. And fixed it and his team was like, wait a second. No, no, no, hold, hold on, hold on. Let's- And now he has a mansion. Right, <laugh> exactly. Right. And, uh, yeah they left the mistake in and she had just, uh, physics defying boobs. And, uh, that was sort of her main thing. And now a bunch of dudes are like, Okay, is it just me or can everybody else just agree that like, her boobs are too small to be Lara Croft? Uh, no, I mean on Twitter they're saying, Do I have to be the asshole who says her tits are too small for me to see her as Lara Croft. Right. And then the well, I and I think another one said, what was, uh, like a current view that got redacted, where they were like, Oh, it looks like Luke Croft, with that flat chest. Kind of shit, into like, yo. Can I, can I speak to that man directly? Sure. You have never had sex in your life. <laugh> <laugh> The only titties you've ever seen are digital. Digital. So don't be mad at Alicia because she out here flexing. It's just- She's doing stunts that you could never do. The thing is the Lara Croft character has been so hyper sexualized, like from the get go, that people still can't shake it. Because even like when the film came out in 2001, people were like fixated on the idea of like, Angelina Jolie's breasts and if they measured up to the character. And like asking her in interviews like, Oh well, what did you do like to like bust out, as your role as Lara, what did you have to do? And she's like, Oh we had to enhance a few things. That's ridiculous. And like. People are trash. Yeah, and even then like, I like think, from back then there was a, like Washington Post, there is a review where it says, Lara Croft, Tomb Raider, stars Angelina Jolie's lips and breasts and in a much smaller role, the actual Angelina Jolie herself. Mm. Listen, I'm gonna say this right now, these video game niggas is fake as fuck. Because they let Mark Wahlberg be Max Payne and he looks nothing like Max Payne. Yeah. And they ain't say shit. <laugh> But now they gonna come for Lara Croft because her titties, man this is ridiculous. Yeah. It's again, it shows you know, the toxic overlap of a video game. Uh, you know some men in the video game world and having this kind of thing. Yeah, it's show business. Tell them to come find me on Fortnite, so they can get their ass beat. Let's not forget where the men's rights activist movement started. Because- Gamergate. Yeah. Gamergate. Uh, all right. Edgar, it has been a pleasure, as always having you. Where can people find you? Well they can find me on Twitter at Edgar Momplaisir. Please join in my campaign to restore my cum shorts. <laugh> Uh. Yeah, you took hell on that one. Yeah dude, they've been taken from me. And if you guys could please convince my girlfriend that it is a normal and or okay thing to do, that'd be quite helpful. I might almost be able to guarantee you, that you might not find many people to do that. <laugh> It's all right, uh. People were DMing me, asking about you. <laugh> <laugh> They're like, is Edgar fucking crazy? <laugh> <laugh> I was like look man I'm, I'm not here to judge what this man does. And listen to all those people, print out your porn searches and let's see who's fucking crazy. Because I'm out here jerking into shorts, watching normal porn. <laugh> While you're out there jerking into napkins, watching some fucked up Japanese game show. So don't be coming at me because I'm- They don't come from my Japanese game show. <laugh> Nah, now, you know what, you lost the cum shorts ally man. <laugh> Please flame this man and his Twitter. Nah, you guys know what I'm talking about with these Japanese game shows, they get wild. And they did. So. You need to leave Japan alone, Edgar, this is getting problematic. <laugh> Miles, where can people find you? Oh you can find me reporting Edgar's Twitter and Instagram. <laugh> Uh, but if you wanna find me, I'm at MilesofGray on Twitter and Instagram and even on PlayStation. Hey. Some people are like, Hey man what's your gamer tag or PSN name? It's MilesofGray, I keep it consistent. Yeah. I'm not gonna promise I will follow you but at least send me a message and stroke my ego and maybe I will, uh, grant you access. Yeah, let's play Fortnite together. Oh yeah, yeah. At Edgar the doubt. Oh okay. You can follow me at Jack, underscore, O'Brien, on Twitter. You can follow us at DailyZeitgeist on Twitter, at TheDailyZeitgeist on Instagram. We have a Facebook fan page and a website DailyZeitgeist.com. Where we post our episodes and our footnotes. Footnotes. Where we link off to the sources of the information, we talked about today. That's gonna do it for today. Miles, do we have a song- I do. That you'd like to ride us out on. Yeah, you know I just, just to start off the week in a nice groove. Uh, so this is one of my favorite sort of first baselines I ever learned. And also, one of the great tracks of Herbie Hancock's, when he had the Head Hunters album. Uh, one the great classic song Watermelon Man. But this got, this oh my god. Let me just tell you from the drums, to the bass, guitar, everything. It's just, uh, a wonderful rendition of Watermelon Man. And I, I promise you if you like this kind of stuff, you're gonna like this one. We're gonna ride out on that. We will be back tomorrow because it is a daily podcast. Talk to you then. Jack, I don't have to tell you, you know sleep is pretty tight. Oh you said it man. Some might say it's even pretty cool. I would even say that. Well, <laugh> that's why Purple Mattress is a mattress you all should be considering because it is made perfectly for our bodies, and some might say it uses space-age technology because it was developed by an actual rocket scientist. Well, guess what? Now, all of the Zeit gang, you can get 100 night risk-free trial. If you're not fully satisfied, you can return your mattress for a full refund. Okay? You guys are gonna love Purple. And right now our listeners will get a free Purple Pillow with the purchase of a mattress, that's in addition to the great free gifts they're offering site-wide, just text DAILYZ to 474747. The only way to get this free pillow, is to text D-A-I-L-Y-Z to 474747. Message and data rates may apply. 

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+Hey there podcast listeners. Ira here with a quick program note. Uh, which is that our contributor Mike Birbiglia has a one-man show that just opened on Broadway. And I've been working with him on the show for over a year and a half as he's been developing it and rewriting it and it is incredibly funny. Like, when a professional committee and works material on the road for a year and a half, the result is jampacked with jokes, funnier I'm sure than anything else on Broadway like no play can compete with that. And people cry. Lots of people cry. He does this emotional story that starts with all the reasons he doesn't wanna become a parent, and then it goes places in there. If you're coming to New York City this fall, I am very pleased to announce that we have arranged for a discount, a big discount actually, 40% off ticket prices for our listeners. But this is important, you have to buy your tickets fast. The producer set aside a lot of tickets for This American Life listeners, but this is not unlimited, um, and there are a lot of you out there. So, if you want the discount, really do it right now. Seriously, do it right now. More about the show and the link to the deal at our website, thisamericanlife.org. Anyway, here's the show. Support for This American Life comes from Squarespace providing designer crafted templates, mobile friendly and E-commerce ready. For a for free a trial of your new website, visit squarespace.com/american and enter American. Think it, dream it, make it with Squarespace. And from ZipRecruiter. Some job boards overwhelm you with tons of the wrong resumes, but ZipRecruiter finds the right people for you and actively invites them to apply. Try it for free at ziprecuiter.com/american. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. So Lilly, you're here to tell me a story? Yes. And I should say you are Lilly Sullivan. You're one of the producers of our show. mm-hmm <affirmative>, I am. So what's the story? Okay. So, um, this is a story that I heard growing up. It was kind of, um… It was one of those things I was told just like a scary story when you're a kid. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like an urban legend. And then I've been thinking about it a lot recently, um, because I read a book recently that I really loved that's called, um, Her Body and Other Parties by this writer Carmen Maria Machado. mm-hmm <affirmative>. It's a finalist for the National Book award. And she retells the story in one of the short stories in her book. And, um, it's, it kind of, it just stuck in my head and it's just something that I've been thinking about a lot recently. And so what happens? How does it go? Okay. So a girl and her mom are on vacation in Paris, and they're just traveling and they've been there for a few days. And the mom, um, she gets sick. And so the girl gets a doctor and the doctor comes to the hotel. He spends a while examining her and he's like, She's really sick. We need to deal with this immediately. And he tells the daughter, You need to go across the city. I have medicine that can save her. You have to go get it while I tend to her. Sends her downstairs, and the guy at the front desk, the hotel manager takes her out and he puts her in a cab and he goes to the taxi driver and in French tells him directions to where she's supposed to go. And it's on the other side of the city. So the girl is in the back of the cab and it's kind of… it's just taking forever. The taxi driver is making all these loops, and, um, getting lost. And she's kind of frantic in the back needing to get back. But she finally gets there. She gets the pills. She jumps back in the cab and they drive back to the hotel. She runs into the building and she's running past the hotel manager. And he stops her and he says, Miss, can I help you? And she says, Yeah. I have it. I, I found the medicine. I'm just going back up. He's like, I'm sorry. I've never. I've never seen you before. And she's like, No. I just… You just put me in a cab. I'm staying here with my mother. She's upstairs and she's sick. And the doctor is with her. And he's like, Wait we don't have any guests staying here right now. And so she runs past and she runs upstairs. She goes to the room and she opens the door. And, um, the room where her mother was, it's empty. The furniture is all different. The walls are a different color. Everything is rearranged. And the hotel manager kind of chases her up and he's like, Seriously, miss, you need to leave. You can't just be in here. And so she's really confused. She starts running down the halls looking for them. Them being, uh, the doctor and her mom. Yeah. And so she runs up at the hotel. She runs into the street. And she just starts asking everybody, you know, I'm looking for my mom. Have you seen her. So what happens to her? Well, she just keeps looking. Um, years passed. Oh, it's a fable. <laugh>. Right, right. Um- This isn't a real story. <laugh>. Right. Um, and, you know, she's young. She's in Paris. She doesn't know anybody. And she just keeps wandering and looking and in the eyes of everyone in Paris she kind of becomes this mad woman wandering the streets of Paris saying, Where is my mother? Where is my mother? Um, and sometimes she wonders it, too. Did I just, um, did I invent all of this in my head. She wonders if it happened at all. But at the same time, she knows that it happened. Like, she was staying there with her mother. Lilly, you said that this story has been stuck in your head for a while and I know it has because, because I know that it was your impetus for, for putting together, uh, today's show, and you've been thinking about it for months actually. Um, talk about why. She goes through something in that story that I feel like I've gone through, I think that a lot of women go through all the time. Um, and it's just… It can happen in really small ways that don't even get… They don't get talked about because they're so small. So here's an example. So years ago when I was just first getting into radio, you know, I just graduated from this radio program. I got this little scholarship thing to go to this conference with a lot of people who, who have been in radio forever. Yeah. And it was also, you know, it was one of those scholarships where we're all people of color. We're all young in a new career. And it was all people who were older and, you know, public radio is mostly- White. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you're there and you're like the young person of color who doesn't know anything about radio. Right. It was a little un- It was a little awkward and uncomfortable. And there was, um, there was this older person who was, um, a pretty big deal in radio. And he, he was doing this thing where he would kind of come up and talk to me like a normal person, and you know, say professional things about radio. Um, and then he would… You know, it's conference so you see people and you walk away and you mingle. And then he would kind of walk away and then he would be on the other side of the room and he would just kind of like leer at me from a distance all… kind of all the time. It fell like constantly. And he would just, you know, he'd be waggling his eyebrows, pursing his lips. You know, like squinting eyes. So corny. I know. So every time I would turn he would, you know, catch my eye and like raise his eyebrows again like, Still here. <laugh>. He was messing with me. I mean but it was weird because then a few minutes later he would just walk up to me and then start acting totally normal as if, as if he hadn't been doing that. Oh, wow. He would just, um, Oh, you're here with this program. Um, it's a really interesting program and it's important to cultivate new people of color in radio. And then, um, as part of the conference, there was an event one night and, you know, there was alcohol and people were drinking. And he was standing with a group of men. They're looking at me and they're whispering. It, it felt like they were talking about me. Um, I mean they were. I, I could tell that they were talking about me. Someone would look at me saying something and then someone would laugh. Did you have a feeling about what they were probably saying? I mean I think they were just talking about like me as a woman and how I look, um, things like that. And I think that he was telling them that he was gonna sleep with me or something like that. That's the way they were looking at me. They were like whispering to each other and squinting their eyes, and they were laughing at me. And then he comes up to me, um, and just acts totally normal and tells me that I should come over and come meet them. You know, he'd be happy to make some introductions. Um, they're good people to know in radio. And so, I go over with him. And I like put out my hands to meet them. And, um, no one shook my hand and they all just kind of laughed and looked at each other, And I just- Wow. Yeah. It was- It wasn't great. It was really embarrassing, but it was so subtle. It just felt humiliating in a way that I knew would sound silly if I tried to tell someone. And then later, I talked to people about it and, um, they were a little skeptical, you know. They were like, Those, those people, they, they wouldn't have done that, the people who make the decisions in radio. But I was like, I just, I know that it happened. And then it your mind, you're basically doing in the story which is like, like, like this is definitely true, but wait, is this true? Kind of because… Yeah. I mean a little bit. Because like on the one hand, like you know what it's like when people are kind of laughing at you when you put out your hand and no one shakes it. Yeah. That seems pretty blatant. It seems like hard to, to make a mistake about. <laugh>. It does seem blatant, right? Right. But then when people say, You must have misread everything and the guy himself is acting like everything is totally fine, you're kind of like, is it possible, is it possible that I misread everything? Am I overreacting? Did I just read all of that wrong? Okay. So this show that you have put together today really was kind of inspired by that Paris story, right? Yeah, yeah. And let me just explain, uh, to the audience that it has, um, it has two stories about women. And in each of the stories, something, uh, kind of weird and unsettling happens to these women and the world does not acknowledge how weird and wrong these things are. But in addition, unlike the woman in the Paris story and unlike you at the conference, the women in these stories, they don't think anything has gone wrong. Not at first. Um, at first they think everything is fine because everyone around them acts like everything is fine. Um, and only later do they start to realize, um, wait, something bad did happen. And so that is gonna be our show today. Two stories that I have to say are eye-opening from WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life. Stay with us. Act One: The Old Man On My Shoulder. This short story, when the producer is working on it, started doing interviews for the story, it seemed like every single interview they came back so surprised at what they were learning. They really set out having no idea what they would find. A warning: This story has, um, sexual content. It's probably not right for children. And it begins with something that happened to our producer Elna Baker. A few months ago I was talking to a guy I know, Rory, when Mormonism came up. You grew up Mormon? You have to meet my fiancee Reagan, he told me. She was Mormon, too. You guys will have so much in common. I know that's like saying, You're black. Meet my other black friend. But in this case, he was right. Within an hour of meeting Reagan we were singing church songs together like, When I grow up I want to be a mother and have a family. One little, two little, three little babies of my own. Of all the jobs, for me, I'll choose no other. I'll have a family. Four little, five little, six little babies in my home. All this while Rory looked on in horror. Reagan says that Rory is constantly bowled over by the things she tells him. You know it started out kind of fun and cute, and I'd be like, You know, when you're singing around the piano with your family? And he's like, No, nobody does that. <laugh>. That's not our normal thing for people's childhood. So it started out kind of cute like that and then one day I'm like, You know, when, when you're in an, an office with an old man and the door shut and you're talking about sex things? <laugh>. Reagan is referring to the Mormon practice of confessing your sexual sins to the Bishop. This usually starts when you're 12, for boys and girls. Reagan told Rory about the time that she was confessing, and the bishop rose from his desk and put his hand on her knee. Even as an adult in her 30s telling the story, she didn't totally understand how shocking this was, but Rory did. And what was his response? Well, he repeated the whole thing like, You mean to tell me that you were in an office alone with a man with a door shut and he was asking sexual questions and then he came out from behind his desk and put his hand on your knee? <laugh>. That kind of thing, and then, And your parents allowed that? Your parents weren't mad about that? How did that make you feel? Well it made me feel everything all over again. It really made me feel the shame and humiliation that I felt when I was 12. 12 to 18. It was nice to talk to someone else about this. From the ages of 12 to 27, I was supposed to walk into my bishop's office and confess anytime I did anything sexual. But unlike old-fashioned Catholic confession, there was no curtain or anonymity. And Mormon bishops, they're not paid or trained clergy. They don't wear robes. They're men who are chosen by the church to volunteer their time and serve as basically pastors for a two- to five-year period. They keep their regular jobs. One of my bishops, a good one, was a food scientist who helped invent Pop Rocks. Another was an investment banker named Chad. I'd sit across from Chad in a little office at church and admit to a sexual encounter, and Chad would ask follow-up question. Did you go to first base or second? He put his hands where? Was it under the bra or over the bra? Did you like it? To be forgiven of a sexual sin, I was required to tell the bishop. So while I often felt ashamed or humiliated in the room, I never questioned the process itself. It was routine like going to the dentist. You turn yourself in whenever there was anything to report. And on top of that, once or twice a year, you were required to go to this thing called a worthiness interview. Everyone did this, no exception, from the ages of 12 to 18. These were like check-ups for your spirituality. The bishop would ask you a series of questions like, Do you believe in God? Are you a full tithe payer? Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen? In the midst of these questions about your faith he'd ask if you obey the law of chastity. Reagan's first worthiness interview was pretty confusing. They sort of graze over everything until you get to chastity. And he said, Are you obeying the law of chastity? And I didn't know what that word meant. And so I asked him to explain it more, and he said, Are you engaging in sexual things like petting and necking? And I also didn't know what petting and necking was. I mean, I was about as innocent as a 12 -year-old can be. I was home-schooled, and everything. So I wasn't even around language like, you know, any kind of sexual or lewd language of any kind. Especially not language from the 1950s. Yeah, exactly. <laugh>. Yeah, so I didn't know what necking or petting was. And so I think I said, like, I don't think so. And I remember the feeling of my heart beating in my ears. You know, I felt my whole body was so hot. And even though I didn't know what it was, and I didn't think I had done it, I felt like I had done it. Uh-huh <affirmative>. You know, I felt like I was really guilty. And it seemed like every question up until that point was really not important, and then this was the big question. This was like, the, the whole, you know, climax of the interview. <laugh>. And then I also became bad after that. I became completely obsessed with necking, and petting, and finding out what it meant. Anytime anything would happen in a movie, anything sexual at all, I'd be like, I think that's petting. <laugh>. The interviews kick-started something with me. I made my Barbies do everything that you can possibly imagine. It was like a bloodbath. My Barbies w- went from just playing house to like, doing angel dust, and having like, orgies within a matter of weeks. <laugh>. When Reagan was 16, she said she finally got a boyfriend to experiment with. And she did neck and pet with him. But whatever fun she had was gone the second it was over. Did you immediately, like right after, think like, oh no, now I have to tell the bishop? Yes. Yes, instantly. I went home, and I remember feeling really excited that I had necked and petted. And then the next day, I was just guilt-ridden. The whole day I was like… It was like I had a hangover or something. Like a… I don't know. I was laying in bed, like thinking about it, and worrying about it all day. And I didn't tell him or talk about it until I was asked to go in for an interview. And the door was shut. I was sitting there. I was 16. And he asked me all the questions. And then he asked me if I was keeping the law of chastity. And I said no. I said no. And he came out from behind his desk, and pulled up a chair close to me, and put his hand on my knee. This is the story she told her fiancee, Rory. And then said, Did you do this more than once? And I said no, I only did it once. And then he said, Did you have intercourse? And I said no. And then he said, Did you like it? And I said no. Have you thought about doing it again? And did he define what it was? Well, it was all kind of vague things. Like, you know, intercourse was probably the most specific. But I remember him asking me things like, Did you impersonate sex? Which I didn't totally understand. That's a really weird way to put it, too. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, it's me, sex. <laugh>. Yeah. For penance you put together a plan that requires frequent check-ins, and you do assignments, like reading church literature about not having sex. For a while you can't take the sacrament, our version of communion. This can feel like public shaming, like everyone notices. It's incredibly embarrassing because if you're a young woman, the assumption is it's sex related. Reagan's bishop set up more meetings with her. And then he called my house about twice a month to check on me. I felt really humiliated. I felt, um, I felt like, evil, almost, you know? I felt like everything… I felt like I was just such a disappointment, and I made my family look bad, and all of that. One morning, last December, I opened up Facebook and saw this petition going around by a Mormon named Sam Young. He used to be a bishop, and he was calling on the church to stop these sexually explicit interviews. This was the first time I'd ever heard them referred to it sexually explicit. He posted a list of 29 questions different church members said that they'd been asked in their interviews with their bishops. As I read down the list, I realized that I had been asked 13 of them. Questions like, do you masturbate? Where and how did your boyfriend touch you? Where were his fingers? Were your nipples hard? Were you wet? It took seeing them all together for me to realize how bad it actually was. There were stories of abuse on Sam's website. Some are extreme, like bishops who convinced children that if they masturbated with them, the desire to do it would go away. I was never physically abused, just asked questions. As a bishop, Sam said he never asked these questions, and he was never asked them as a kid. He found out about them from a friend whose son was asked about masturbation. Sam couldn't believe it. He posted about it on Facebook, and the stories came flooding in. Of his six daughters, four told him that they'd been asked if they masturbated. One of his youngest said she didn't know what the word meant. She was 12. So she looked it up on the internet, and this introduced her to porn. Sam thought if he brought all this to the attention of the church, they'd stop these explicit questions. The church response was that bishops are not supposed to be, quote, unnecessarily probing or invasive in their questions. But what's necessary and unnecessary is left up to each individual bishop to decide. The church doesn't define exactly where the line is. As the story got more heat, the church issued new guidelines this spring, saying kids could have a parent or an adult in the room when meeting with the bishop. The church claims this had nothing to do with Sam's petition, but clearly he had touched a nerve. He was excommunicated from the church in September for acting, quote in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the church. And a lot of Mormons online resisted his claims. They defended their bishops, saying they hadn't been asked inappropriate or disturbing questions, that these incidents were isolated and unusual or that Sam was making these stories up, that they hadn't happened at all. But I knew they'd happened, because they'd happened to me. And they stuck with me. I had rarely talked about it with any friends, and never my family. Even all these years later, I feel like it's my fault. That I somehow deserved these humiliating encounters. And talking to Reagan and reading the stories on Sam's website, I wondered, how widespread is this? It just so happens that we have another person on staff who grew up Mormon. So together, we just started calling people, some we knew, some we didn't, some are practicing Mormons, others had left the church. And people definitely remembered their bishop interviews. They'd be like, Well, how long did it last? Or Did he put his fingers in you or did you put your fingers on him? And I think he asked me if I had made her orgasm. I remember going really red in the face- mm-hmm <affirmative>. an extreme amount of anxiety. I felt like my throat was closing. And I was only 11, and I'd never had a boyfriend. I told him, yes, I'm keeping the law of chastity. He said, Are you lying to me? I said no. And he said, Are you sure you're not lying to me? And I thought, does the bishop know something about me that I don't know? We reached 10 people. And to our surprise, all 10 said that they had had at least one experience with a bishop where they felt the line of questioning went too far or became overly explicit. These interactions left them feeling deeply uncomfortable and ashamed, to the point that most of them had never shared their stories with anyone. This led me to ask my siblings, and of the five of us, four had had bad experiences. I don't want to say every Mormon feels this way about their bishops. The therapist I contacted, who specializes in sex and relationships, and works with current and former church members, estimated that bishop interviews only come up with one out of eight of her clients. And talking about chastity is just a small part of what bishops do. Lots of people have positive experiences with their bishops, including me, and the people we talked to. Yes, some bishops went too far, but we had others who didn't. You get a new one every few years. But bishop interviews can be hugely consequential for your life. To attend any Mormon-run college, you need your bishop to give you what's called an ecclesiastical endorsement, which is basically a letter stating that you're a faithful Mormon obeying the church's teachings. I talked to a woman named Alisha. She's from Utah in her early 40s. When she was 20, she went to get her ecclesiastical endorsement to go to BYU, Brigham Young University. Alisha had previously had sex with her boyfriend, but says she stopped, and had been abstinent for a while. She hadn't confessed it yet, though. And her feeling was that if she was going to a church school, she wanted to do it the right way. She wanted to be on the up and up. She figured the interview would go okay if she just told the truth because she'd only had positive experiences with bishops before. And so she made an appointment with her bishop. He asked me about masturbation, which I had never been asked before. So that was a little bit surprising. Um, and I said yes. But then he proceeded to ask me, Did you use your hands or did you use a device? And immediately, like every cell in my body was on alert. It- Like when you're walking down an alley, and all of a sudden you feel extremely uncomfortable. That's how I felt. Like, right out of the get go. So I said, well, why does it matter? And he said, Well, I just want to get a sense so I can advise you on triggers, and what to avoid. He asked her a bunch of other sexual questions. She said yes to all of them, and confessed she had sex with her boyfriend. He proceeded to ask me, where were you? Were you in your bed, in a car? Did you climax? Did he climax? I said, Does it make it less of a sin if I climaxed, or does it make it more of a sin? Like, I was confused. I, I don't know or, or wh- what the rules are. Like, I didn't know. Definitely, it was like he sat forward in his chair. And I felt like he was watching porn that was my life, and not his business. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like, that was my take, that he was using my story and his power to create pictures in his head that he could take pleasure from. I mean, th- that's how it felt. At some point he said, So all you guys do is have sex? You guys don't do anything else? And I'm thinking, uh, no, this is a boyfriend that we do a lot. Like, we… He's in a band. We go do all these shows. Like, I help roadie for him. Like, our relationship is not the sex. It's just what you're asking about. And now you're making it sound like that's the only thing we do. It was bizarre. But I needed that signature. And eventually got it, but not without paying a price. She was too scared to report him. She thought it could backfire. And she had to keep meeting with him once a week. She said she always felt sick beforehand, and tried to think of excuses not to go. It's hard because it's not like I could have said, this man is molesting me or, you know, raping me or… And I've had other experiences that were sexual pressure put on me, you know, with hands, that were less traumatic than this. I grew up watching this church video that primed me for the role I was supposed to play in the bishop's office. It's called Godly Sorrow Leads to Repentance. And our teachers would show it to us when they slacked on preparing a lesson. In the video, a young woman named Kim visits her bishop because she's going to get married, and in order to enter the temple, she needs a signed document. A temple recommend that says she's worthy. Kim sits across the desk from her bishop and he asks… Is there anything in your life, Kim, that hasn't been resolved with the proper priesthood authority? Well, before Matt returned from his mission, I was involved with another boy. We probably spent a little too much time together alone. The bishop waits for her to say more. When Kim doesn't, he nods his head and gestures. Um, go on. I guess things sort of got out of hand. Kim, I know how hard it is to talk about things like this, but I need to know how serious the problem was if I'm going to help resolve it. I guess we were getting a little too comfortable together. And that's when the problems started. The screen fades and cuts back to the bishop, implying that time has passed, and Kim has spilled her story. What you've told me, Kim, is very serious. Yeah, but I'm not involved with that guy anymore. It's not a problem now. The bishop tells her that this is much more severe than she thinks. I can't have a temple recommend? But the wedding is coming up. The announcements have been sent out. My dress is paid for. We saw this film a lot, and the cutaway really made an impression. My classmates and I would be like, what do you think she said? So when my bishop first asked me about masturbating when I was 14, it seemed appropriate for us to have an explicit conversation. We were just living in the cutaway. So I told all. I couldn't lie to the bishop. That would be like lying to God. And I was taught that any sexual act I committed before marriage was the second most serious sin next to murder. It was terrifying. I masturbated once when I was 12. I wasn't even aware of what I was doing. I just knew something unusual happened. Two years later, I learned the church's position on masturbation, which is that it's almost as bad as sex. And I knew sex was almost as bad as murder. When I connected the dots, I was devastated. Unless I repented, I was told I'd be separated from my family in the afterlife, because no unclean thing is allowed in heaven. So I go tell the bishop. But, of course, I'd masturbate again. And each time, I'd immediately be hit with the thought that I was being so selfish. Why would I choose this feeling over my family? The only way to undo it, to get my family back, was to confess. My dad was a bishop for five years. When I told him recently about the questions my siblings and I were asked, it upset him. He told me he'd never asked anyone those questions, and didn't remember being asked them as a kid. So when exactly did bishops start asking these detailed and embarrassing questions? I talked to three different historians, all Mormon, but independent of the church. And they said the answer was simple. The shift started happening in the '70s. It was the church's reaction to the sexual revolution. They were worried about promiscuity. Someone at MormonLeaks, our version of WikiLeaks, put me in touch with a historian who has a collection of old church manuals that are written specifically for bishops. Before the 1970s, the manuals told bishops to search for, quote, immoral or unchristianlike practices. They don't spell it out with a lot of details. But then in 1975, explicit questions first appear in a bishop's guide which tells bishops to ask prospective missionaries and other young adults whether they've been involved in, quote, any of the following: pre or extramarital sexual intercourse, homosexual practices, sexual deviations, petting… then in parentheses, the fondling of another's body, and masturbation. Hesitation or uneasiness may suggests that a question needs to be pursued further. End quote. When I read this, I was blown away. I felt like, here it is, the blueprint for the system I grew up in. That was 1975. Worthiness interviews with young people officially began in the 1980s. And in the '90s, a pamphlet came out which bishops were told to use in those interviews. It was called For the Strength of Youth. On the cover there was a black and white drawing of a bunch of teenagers, girls with perms and shoulder pads, boys who looked popular. You got one when you turned 12. I loved mine. Anyway, the pamphlet included a list of forbidden sexual acts like petting, masturbation, and also just thinking too much about sex. The church encouraged bishops to discuss the specific acts listed in the pamphlet during their interviews with young people. And they were free to ask whatever follow-ups they felt they needed to. This is how the system still works today. I had a feeling of love for my bishops. I still do. They were seen as the father of our congregation. You felt like you knew them and they knew you. They'd ask about your classes at college or follow up on your daily life. When my father was a bishop, I watched him volunteer his time in-between a hectic work schedule and home life to help people find apartments, pay for groceries, be their grief counselor, visit them when they were sick. He genuinely loved and helped these people because he cared about them. And my bishops cared about me. I felt relieved when I left the office. Repenting to them lifted the weight of the guilt I'd been carrying. And often, it felt like they were just as uncomfortable asking the questions as I was answering them. But regardless of the intention or behavior of any one bishop, bishop interviews followed me into every sexual encounter. All the women I spoke to had this same problem. For example, I learned that my bishops were more lenient if I wasn't the person initiating. So when I was with guys, I'd strategically make sure they made every move, which meant I was constantly leaning against walls, pressing my boobs out and telepathically communicating, please sir, just touch one boob. But even now in my 30s, I have a really hard time with sex. Shocker. I'm no longer Mormon. I haven't been for eight years. And still, when I fool around with someone, there's a voice in my head that keeps track of what I'm doing, like a ref docking points for each progressive move. The only way to get this voice to shut up is to leave my body. So I'm there, but not there. The following morning, I wake up to this voice telling me all the things I've done wrong. This leads to panic and anxiety. And it's not like I just feel bad for a minute. The feeling lingers for days. Writing this story, I've realized something I never put together until now. I still feel bad for losing my virginity before I got married. I was 28. I wanted to do it the right way. I'd made promises to God, and to the people in my life that I'd wait for marriage. I wanted so badly to live up to their expectations. And when I made the choice to have sex, I knew what it meant. I made it knowing I would lose my family for eternity, my community, and my religion. And in spite of all that, I still did it. And what kind of a person does that make me? This is what I feel every time I have sex. I've wondered how much of this is related to these bishop interviews. And I asked a few people how they thought it impacted them. A couple women said it was easier to have sex if they didn't feel pleasure. The guilt was directly linked to enjoying it. This woman, Courtney, said something I related to a lot. Having, having wine before you have sex or even smoking weed is the only way to get around it… is if you alter your mind. And how much of that directly ties to that interview at 18? 100% And this is Kate. I think constantly having to account to an extraordinarily judgmental outsider about your sex life leaves an external voice. Like, I… You know how there's like an angel and a devil in cartoons who are always on your shoulder? Right? I think there's always like an old man on our shoulders as Mormon women. This has consequences. dr Jennifer Finlayson-Fife is the sex therapist I talked to. She's a practicing Mormon and has had hundreds of patients who are current or former members of the church. She said some Mormon women, not all, learned from their bishop interviews to defer to an authority figure when it comes to sex. Of course, other parts of the religion reinforce that lesson, too. And these women, during sex, they think about what the man they're with wants or what their bishop would think. They don't think about what they want. This shuts their sexuality down. I mean some LDS women really see it as a dangerous thing, that sex and desire in and of itself is dangerous to their goodness and dangerous to their identity as a good woman, and to their perception of the ideals of what a good LDS woman does. And so they shut it down in a more fundamental way or don't develop it in a more fundamental way. And then, the task of awakening it in marriage feels almost impossible. Of course, shutting down means different things. A lot of the women I talked to said that during sex, they leave their bodies, can't even tell what they want. Rebecca was one of the women who told me she enjoys sex. But she still feels held back. She's a practicing Mormon, and she did it the right way. Married a Mormon, waited till marriage to have sex. I still sometimes will have a feeling of I'm, I'm being dirty or slutty if I enjoy this too much, or if I get too into this. Because I, I feel like somehow, the only pure way to have an orgasm is to be thinking about my husband, who I'm married to for eternity, and our, our love and worthiness before God. <laugh>. mm-hmm <affirmative>. I think of that… I don't think having those thoughts, for me, is that sexy. I don't wanna think about my relationship to God. <laugh>. What I've started to realize these bishop interviews did to me was, um, I had no space for privacy of any sexual thought. So if I had a sexual thought, God was eavesdropping and, and heard it. I have to be like, oh, no, turn the thought off. Stop, stop, stop. This is not allowed. Yeah. But I don't blame you for feeling that way, because like that's some of our cultural and social programming. It's not… I don't think it's intentional. I don't think the… I don't think anybody sat there and thought, let's, let's give these women these huge hang ups they're gonna struggle with the rest of their lives. But it happened. Right, they didn't plan to give us these hangups. But they did plan to scare the bejesus out of children about sex, in a way that gave us huge hang ups. I wanted to talk to the church about this to understand how it views the bishop interviews today, after the Sam Young controversy. To see if officials really grasp how much their policies had impacted us, and if the church is rethinking these practices. LDS officials haven't given interviews on this in the past. But the director of Media Relations for the church, Eric Hawkins, agreed to talk. I told him what I'd learned from my interviewees, that these bishop interviews had stayed with us. I think what you have found is, is a, um, a, a selection of, of individuals who have perhaps had that experience or that feeling, um, whereas tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of others have felt very differently about the, the process, and about, uh… So as I say, from my perspective, it is always heartbreaking when I hear that someone leaves that conversation not having had that experience. Are these questions supposed to be that explicit? I think that would depend a little bit on the situation. One of the pieces of counsel that bishops are given is to not be too invasive, um, to adapt the conversation to the understanding and maturity of the young person who is there. And, uh, and I think it's, it's, it's not necessary for a bishop to be overly explicit or, or probing in those questions. He wants to understand how that individual feels about what they have done, and, uh, and so that he can help apply the right amount of repentance, if you will. Eric says the church strongly believes that these bishop interviews with kids are a crucial part of its mission to help young people develop a close relationship with God by teaching them the standards for living a good and moral life. I pointed out to him that under the church's current guidelines, a bishop is still free to ask whatever explicit questions he wants. And inappropriate questions still seem to be happening. I mean, I guess what's the downside to making it super clear what they can and can't ask? Well, I think these are… The, the conversation needs to be according to, to the understanding of that young person. You may have a, a, a young woman who is 11 years old or 12 years old, 13 years old, who is completely innocent. You may have, uh, one of her counterparts who is, um, of the same age, but, but very, very mature in, in her thinking, and the ways of the world, and so forth. And so the conversation would be very different for those, those two individuals. And that's what's outlined in the guidelines for, for bishops, as far as interviews. In other words, bishops need the flexibility to ask whatever they think is needed. He pointed out the church did revise its guidelines for bishop interviews this year to allow parents to be in the room and to share with the parents the basic topics that they'll cover beforehand. So why did you set new guidelines? I think this is a church that is always growing, and learning, and looking to do better. And, uh, and I think there, there was seen an opportunity to improve the interactions between young people and bishops. And, uh, and so those guidelines were set. And, and is that because the way that questions were asked before were wrong? No, I don't think so. I think it's a learning process. I think the way that the church is taking accountability is by constantly seeking to improve. You specifically said the word accountability. And I think that the church needs accountability in acknowledging that this process caused harm. I think that what the church is trying to do is to constantly improve, to look for ways in which this can, can be, um, made better. Absolutely. That those interactions can improve. But I guess what I'm saying is in order to improve, uh, there needs to be an admission. It feels a little like, like an argument I might get in with a boyfriend or my husband, where I'm like, uh… So can you tell me that you did something wrong? And they're like, I'll do better. And I'm like, No, but first you have to tell me you did something wrong. <laugh>. And then it's like, No, I'll do better. And it's like, Will you just tell me, just so I know that you know that this was wrong? I've had those conversations with my wife, too. <laugh>. Uh-huh <affirmative>. Um, and, and so do you understand what I'm asking? I do. I do. And that's why- And do you understand why it's important to, to me to hear that? Yeah. And I, I think, as I said, were you to come into my office, uh, as your bishop or stake president, I would, would sit down and council with you, and make sure you understood, um, that… and, and we would understand together, why did you feel that way? What, what were you feeling? And how can, how can we make you, you feel better? Um, but I, I… What I can't do is go back and, and change your experience, your perception, your, your feelings that you had at that time. Before I was baptized at the age of eight, I had to meet with the bishop. He said that I was going to be accountable for my sins from this moment on. He explained this using a dry erase board. You'll commit sins. He drew big black blobs across the white backdrop. But you can repent. He took an eraser and wiped the board until it was white again. This was a speech a lot of Mormon kids got. Back when I was in the church, I was hooked on the feeling I got when my bishops told me I was forgiven, and clean again. I could never sit with the discomfort I felt over my sexuality. And look, I no longer believe that these men speak for God or have any authority over me. But I can't shake the feeling of wanting to be clean, to have someone else who knows tell me I'm okay. I probably should accept that there is no way that board is going to stay white. Why would I even want it to? What's so bad about drawing on it? Isn't that what it's for? But then, the second I think this, I hear another voice, such is the way of an adulterous woman… she eateth and wipeth her mouth and sayeth, I have done no wickedness. That's what my bishops taught me. Elna Baker is one of the producers of our show. Coming up, something that might happen to you in the hospital that you would probably be unhappy about, and you would never know that it happened. Details in a minute from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues. Support for This American Life comes from Squarespace. 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It's This American Life. I'm Ira Glass. Today's program, But that's What Happened, stories of women in situations where something unsettling happens. And sometimes, it's even hard to explain what felt wrong. And it takes a while to sort out the truth. We've arrived at Act 2 of our program, Act 2… While You Were Out. Lilly Sullivan has this story of something that happens to women without their consent. And they usually never find out that it happened. Here's Lilly. About 10 years ago, Dan Wainberg was a medical student in Canada. It was his first year working in a hospital shadowing doctors. One day, he goes to his first gynecological surgery. He had never been in a gynecological operating room before. So I came into the room with the patient already under a general anesthetic, so, uh, sedated, um, not conscious. That's routine. The patient is usually under by the time the surgeon arrives. So the lead surgeon did a pelvic exam on her, also routine, and then turned to Dan and said, now you try. And, uh, the gynecologist sent me over to the bed to do a, a pelvic exam on this woman. Dan had done a couple pelvic exams before, but never on somebody who was unconscious. To do a pelvic exam, a doctor inserts their fingers into a patient's vagina to examine the cervix and uterus. The doctor places another hand on the abdomen and presses down trying to catch the ovaries between the hand on the abdomen and the hand in the vagina to check for abnormalities. And while Dan was doing all this, the surgeon walked away. And he went off to do something else. And so I was left there by myself doing a pelvic exam on an unconscious woman as someone who really, uh, didn't have a lot of knowledge of what I'm supposed to be feeling for. And I thought to myself, who would consent to something like this? And, um, I know that my mind wandered to, if the woman knew what was going on, you know, that she'd probably be pretty upset, and justifiably so. You know, I just thought, wh- wh- what am I doing? And what would this woman think if she were to wake up right now? As soon as this thought hit him, he stopped, walked away. I don't think anyone paid any attention to me whatsoever, including the person who, you know, the surgeon who was supposed to be basically my supervisor or teacher. Um, after that surgery, I… well, I felt so uncomfortable with the initial exam that, uh, I mustered up the courage to talk to the surgeon, my supervisor. And, um, I asked him to please make sure, you know, from now on, just make sure they know I'm here. And ask for their consent, uh, for me to do an exam. Um, I don't wanna be… Yeah, I didn't… I just felt like I didn't want that on my conscience. It didn't feel good. Oh, yeah. How did he react? I think he just, he just kind of brushed it off and said, Okay. You know… Mm, Yeah, sure. The night after that first surgery, Dan was still really upset. So he called his older sister, Sarah. She was in med school, too, a year ahead. And she was like, Yeah, so? I thought about all the times that I'd been asked to do the exact same thing. And when it happened to me, I didn't really think twice about it. I actually thought, oh, this is a fantastic learning opportunity. Because I, I found learning the pelvic exam a little awkward also. So when the surgeon invited me to also do a pelvic exam, I thought, great. I'd love to. And I don't think it had ever occurred to me even once that I might be doing something unethical. It just seemed like a normal part of practice. It was kind of normal. Pelvic exams are hard to learn. Frankly, under the best of circumstances, they're uncomfortable, awkward. So for years in teaching hospitals, a common way to train students was that when someone was unconscious during a gynecological surgery, the head surgeon would do the exam and then a student would repeat the exam for practice. As far as consent goes, whenever anyone goes to a hospital, they sign an overall release form. At a teaching hospital, which lots of hospitals are, there's a part on the form that says something like, I acknowledge that medical students may be part of my treatment team. That's what a teaching hospital is, teaching people how to do stuff. These kinds of exams aren't just a thing in Canada. They're common in the US, too. Rectal exams happen the same way for men while they're unconscious during prostate surgery. And the more Sara thought about it, she started to feel weird, too. I think, actually, I, I probably felt a little bit embarrassed. So my first reaction was just to say, oh, what did you do? But in my head, I was thinking, oh, man. <laugh>. Mm. Why haven't I ever thought about this before? And then how did you feel about that reaction now? Do you have a different feeling about your initial… Oh, yeah. Now, I think it's horrifying, absolutely. I, I think, like, what's wrong with me? Why didn't this occur to me that I hadn't actually met this woman before? And, and it, it never occurred to me. And I, I think that's pretty horrible. Yeah, it's, it's one, it's one of those dirty little secrets of medicine. After they hung up, Sara kept thinking about it, obsessing over the women, the patients getting these pelvic exams. Do they know that this might happen under anesthesia? And if not, how would they feel about it? Sarah had to do a research project for school that year. And she wanted to look at this. I specifically started talking to my boyfriend about it. Because he had wanted to be my research partner. And I said, Oh, I've got this great idea. Let's do our research project on pelvic exams that are done without consent. And he said, No way. I do not wanna be your research partner for that. Why? Um, he felt that the pelvic exam under anesthesia is an incredibly important learning opportunity for male students. And he thought that even by looking at this issue, we were opening up like a big can of worms, and he didn't wanna have anything to do with it. He thought it was wrong that I was even looking into this issue. Oh, wow. Yeah. So you guys had some… We were not a match made in heaven. <laugh>. He never came around on that one. Sara found that most of her classmates had done exams like this, practice exams on anesthetized women. And lots of them had never really thought about it either until Sara pointed it out to them. Did you notice that women thought something different from men or was it all… Yes. <laugh>. Yes, I think a lot of men felt the same way my boyfriend did, that this is how we're going to learn. Because women don't always let us do this when they're awake. So we need to learn while they're asleep. For sure. The next year, she decided to survey a bunch of female patients at her teaching hospital and see what they said. Did they know that medical students might do exams? How did the women feel about it? Do patients want to be asked for consent beforehand? No one had ever studied that before. At the time, I was like, Come on, what's the big deal? Just… Let's, let's ask the question and find out what the answer is. I thought it's about time somebody really answers the question. If you ask women, are they going to say yes? Right? What… Are they gonna… Are they gonna say yes or are they gonna say no? That was the question that nobody had asked yet. Here's what Sara and her research partners found. They polled 102 female surgery patients at their teaching hospital's pelvic floor disorder center. So that's women who are likely to have had pelvic surgery or who were likely to have it in the near future. The vast majority, 81% of them, had no idea that a med student might do a pelvic exam on them while they were asleep. And most said, yeah, they wanted to be asked. And here's the most surprising thing they found. 53% of women said they actually wouldn't mind being examined by a student while unconscious as long as someone asked them for permission beforehand. So a real find. Women would say yes. All you had to do was ask. So just ask, right? Problem solved. After Sara and her co-authors published their research, people flipped out. The Globe and Mail wrote an article about it. People were shocked to learn that this was something that went on at all. Soon afterward, the medical guidelines in Canada changed. The Society of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, also the Association of Professors of Obstetrics and Gynecology revised their positions. They said that doctor should always ask for specific consent for this kind of exam. In the US, the American Medical Association, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, and the Association of American Medical Colleges, they've also condemned this kind of pelvic exam. It's illegal in five states, Virginia, California, Hawaii, Illinois, and Oregon. A lot of teaching hospitals say they don't do it anymore, that it's a thing of the past. But medical students say it still happens. A couple of years ago, a biomedical ethicist named Phoebe Friesen had just started teaching medical ethics at Mount Sinai Medical School in New York. The students who were following doctors in hospitals had to talk about ethical dilemmas in medicine. And when I was working with students who were in their OB-GYN clerkship, a lot of them brought up this practice and the fact that they'd been asked to perform pelvic exams on women under anesthetic who hadn't consented. And this one came up all the time in nearly every session that I did. Um, and generally, everyone was often sort of seeking, um, permission or consensus that this is okay. Wow, so all the students had experienced this? Yeah, so I think as long as they were participating in gynecological surgeries, it was really the norm. Um, but I think a lot of them felt kind of confused or maybe ashamed. I think a lot of them were seeking reassurance that that was okay. And I just ended up talking to so many who felt uncomfortable. They were doing these pelvic exams at a bunch of different hospitals around New York City. Phoebe had never heard anything about these kinds of exams. She was horrified. She started asking everyone, random students she'd meet at conferences, parties. And she found that students had experienced it everywhere, at hospitals all over the country. Because teaching hospitals take a lot of patients without insurance or who are on Medicaid, these practice exams end up being done disproportionately on poor women, women of color, homeless women. Phoebe was surprised to learn there are a lot of people who are still in favor of it. And I think especially there was a lot of men who were dismissive, and there was a lot of people from within the medical community. Um, or a lot of people would say things like, well, what you don't know can't hurt you. Oh, my God. That kind of response, which I felt like was really, really weird. So she decided to dissect the ethics of it and put together an article for the Journal of Bioethics. It's one of the leading journals in the field. She parsed out five common arguments in support of examining unconscious patients, evaluated each of them, and concluded that the practice is unethical. The response from doctors? Not so good. Some said these exams are necessary for teaching. Some said these exams never happen, which, of course, can't both be true. One argument Phoebe has heard a lot, the vagina is just a body part. Be a professional. Don't be a prude. She calls this the is the vagina different from the mouth objection. Sara heard this one a lot when she was doing her research. Here's Sara. So who cares? This is just another exam. This is just another thing that medical students do in the hospital. Mm. Why is it different than looking in someone's mouth or, uh, looking at their hip? How is this different? How is it different? The thing that really makes it different is not what we, as doctors, think about it. The thing that makes it different is what the patients think about it. And if you ask women, they think it's different. So it's different, yeah. For me, I would want, I would want to know if somebody was going to be examining my vagina while I was asleep. Absolutely, I would like to know. I, I mean, I've been in that situation. I, I've, I've been there. I've been, I've been that crying woman waiting to go into, into surgery. So I understand what it feels like. Sara has had gynecological surgery under anesthesia. After a miscarriage. I, I've been in an operating room, asleep. You're asleep in a cold operating room with your feet up in the air, and a bunch of strangers around you. And you're, you're exposed for all these people to see. It's very emotional. Yeah, it is. Yeah, because you're very vulnerable when you're asleep. I mean, before I delivered a baby, they asked me if I wanted a med student or a resident in the room. So I think if I'm asleep, I should be offered the same courtesy. For this story, I wanted to talk to women who have been examined under anesthesia without their consent. But I couldn't find anyone. These exams don't become part of a woman's medical records. They don't go into their charts at the hospital. And of course, this happens while they're unconscious. So pretty much, by definition, anyone who's gone through this will probably never know. Lilly Sullivan. Our program was produced today by Lilly Sullivan. The people who put together today's show includes Elna Baker, Ben Calhoun, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Neil Drumming, Jarrett Floyd, Stephanie Foo, Damien Grave, Michelle Harris, David Kestenbaum, Anna Martin, Miki Meek, Stowe Nelson, Catherine Raimondo, Nadia Reiman, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu. Our senior producer is Brian Reed. Our managing editor is Susan Burton. Special thanks today to Greg Prince, Matt Bowman, Taylor Petrey, Peggy Fletcher Stack, Louise Seamster, Alexandra Duncan, and Sue Ross. Our website… thisamericanlife.org, where you can listen to our archive of over 650 episodes for absolutely free. This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange. This work for This American Life comes from Lagunitas Brewing Company, brewers of fine ales and they say, mystery and romance. And of course, committed to keeping the pub in public radio. Find out more, won't you? At lagunitas.com and from ZipRecruiter. ZipRecruiter is dedicated to making hiring simple with matching technology designed to find qualified candidates and actively invite them to apply. Learn more at ziprecruiter.com/life. Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder mr Torey Malatia. You know, he and I ended up at this fancy party at the Kardashians' last week. Some of his cocktail banter, I don't know, it was so awkward. Is there anything in your life, Kim, that hasn't been resolved with the proper priesthood authority? I'm Ira Glass. Back next week with more stories of This American Life. Next week on the podcast of This American Life, one of the people who works here at the radio show, a scientist by training thinks that there is no such thing as freewill, like it doesn't exist. So, I would say he decided to do a story for our show about that. He would say he had no choice. Atoms and neurons inside him turned and churned like pieces of a machine and he did what they commanded. What do you do with yourself if that's what you believe? Next week on the podcast on your local public radio station. 

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+This is The Writer's Voice, new fiction from The New Yorker. I'm Deborah Treisman, fiction editor at The New Yorker. On this episode of The Writer's Voice, we'll hear Tommy Orange read his story, The State, from the March 26 2018 issue of the magazine. A graduate of the MFA program at the Institute of American Indian Arts, Orange will publish his first novel, There There, from which this story was adapted in June. Now, here's Tommy Orange. The State. Before you were born, you were a head and a tail in a milky pool. A swimmer. You were a race, a dying off, a breaking through, an arrival. Before you were born, you were an egg in your mom, who was an egg in her mom. Before you were born, you were a nested Russian doll of possibility in your mom's ovaries. You were two halves of a million different possibilities, a billion heads or tails, flip-shine on spun coin. Before you were born, you were the idea to make it to California for gold or bust. You were white, you were brown, you were red, you were dust. You were hiding, you were seeking. Before you were born, you were chased, beaten, broken, trapped in Oklahoma. Before you were born, you were an idea your mom got into her head in the '70s, to hitchhike across the country and become a dancer in New York. You were on your way when she did not make it across the country but sputtered and spiraled and landed in Taos, New Mexico, at a peyote commune called Morning Star. Before you were born, you were your dad's decision to move away from Oklahoma, to northern New Mexico to learn about a Pueblo guy's fireplace. You were the light in the wet of your parents' eyes as they met across that fireplace in ceremony. Before you were born, your halves inside them moved to Oakland. Before you were born, before your body was much more than heart, spine, bone, skin, blood, and vein, when you'd just started to build muscle, before you showed, bulged in her belly, as her belly, before your dad's pride could belly-swell at the sight of you, your parents were in a room listening to the sound your heart made. You had an arrhythmic heartbeat. The doctor said it was normal. Your arrhythmic heart was not abnormal. Maybe he's a drummer, your dad said. He doesn't even know what a drum is, your mom said. And the man said arrhythmic. That means no rhythm. Maybe it just means he knows the rhythm so good he doesn't always hit it when you expect him to. Rhythm of what? she said. But, once you got big enough to make your mom feel you, she couldn't deny it. You swam to the beat. When your dad brought out the kettledrum, you'd kick her in time with it, or in time with her heartbeat, or with one of the oldies mixtapes she'd made from records she loved and played endlessly in your Aerostar minivan. Once you were out in the world, running and jumping and climbing, you tapped your toes and fingers everywhere, all the time. On tabletops, desktops. You tapped every surface you found in front of you, listened for the sound things made back at you when you hit them. The timbre of taps, the din of dings, silverware clangs in kitchens, door knocks, knuckle cracks, head scratches. You were finding out that everything made a sound. Everything could be drumming, whether the rhythm was kept or it strayed. Even gunshots and backfire, the howl of trains at night, the wind against your windows. The world was made of sound. But inside every kind of sound lurked a sadness. In the quiet between your parents after a fight they'd both managed to lose. Or when you and your sisters listened through the walls for the early signs of a fight about to start. For the late signs of a fight reignited. The sound of the church service, the building wail of worship, your mom speaking in tongues on the crest of that weekly Sunday wave. Sadness because you couldn't feel any of it, though you wanted to. You felt that you needed it, that it could protect you from the dreams you had almost every night about the end of the world and the possibility of hell forever. You living there, still a boy, unable to leave or die or do anything but burn in a lake of fire. Sadness came in the sound of your dad snoring in church, even as members of the congregation, members of your family, were being slain by the Holy Ghost in the aisle right next to him. Sadness came in the quiet of the street when the days got shorter at the end of summer and the kids weren't out anymore. In the color of that fleeting sky, sadness lurked. Sadness pounced, slid into everything it could find its way into, through anything, through sound, through you. You didn't think of any of the tapping or the knocking as drumming until you actually started drumming, many years later. It would have been good to know that you'd always done something naturally. But there was too much going on with everyone else in your family for anyone to notice that you should probably have done something else with your fingers and toes than tap, with your mind and time than knock at all the surfaces in your life like you were looking for a way in. You're headed to a powwow. You were invited to drum at the Big Oakland Powwow even though you quit drum group. You weren't gonna go. You haven't wanted to see anyone from work since you got fired. Especially anyone from the powwow committee. But there's never been anything like it for you, the way that big drum fills your body until there's only the drum, the sound, the song. The name of your drum group is Southern Moon. You joined a year after you started working at the Indian Center as a janitor. You're supposed to say custodian now, or maintenance person, but you've always thought of yourself as a janitor. When you were 16, you went on a trip to Washington, D.C. to visit your uncle, your mom's brother. He took you to the Smithsonian American Art Museum, where you discovered James Hampton. He was an artist, a Christian, a mystic, a janitor. James Hampton ended up meaning everything to you. Anyway, being a janitor was just a job. It paid the rent, and you could have your earphones in all day. No one wants to talk to the guy cleaning up. The earphones are an additional service. People don't have to pretend to be interested in you because they feel bad that you're taking their trash out from under their desk and giving them a fresh bag. Drum group was Tuesday nights. All were welcome. Not women, though. They had their own drum group, Thursday nights. They were Northern Moon. You first heard the big drum by accident one night after work. You'd come back because you'd forgotten your earphones. You were just about to get on the bus when you realized they weren't in your ears when you most wanted them, for that long ride home. The drum group played on the first floor. You walked into the room and, just as you did, they started singing. High-voiced wailing and howled harmonies that screamed through the boom of that big drum. Old songs that sang to the old sadness you always kept as close as skin, without meaning to. The word triumph flashed in your head then. What was it doing there? You never used that word. But that was what it sounded like to make it through these hundreds of American years, to sing through them. That was the sound of pain forgetting itself in song. You went back every Tuesday for the next year. Keeping time wasn't hard for you. The hard part was singing. You'd never been a talker. You'd certainly never sung before. Not even alone. But Bobby made you do it. Bobby was big, maybe six-four, three-50. He said that it was because he came from eight different tribes. He had to fit all of them in there, he said, pointing at his belly. He had the best voice in the group, hands down. He could go high or low. And he was the one who invited you in. If it were up to Bobby, the drum group would be bigger, would include everyone. He'd have the whole world on a drum if he could. Bobby Big Medicine, sometimes a name fit just right. Your voice is low, like your dad's. You can't even hear it when I sing, you told Bobby after group one day. So what? Adds body. Bass harmony is underappreciated, Bobby told you, then handed you a cup of coffee. The big drum's all you need for bass, you said. Voice bass is different from drum bass, Bobby said. Drum bass is closed. Voice bass opens. I don't know, you said. Voice can take a long time to come all the way out, brother, Bobby said. Be patient. You walk outside your studio apartment to a hot Oakland summer day, an Oakland you remember as gray, always gray. Oakland summer days from your childhood. Mornings so gray they filled the whole day with gloom and cool, even after the blue broke through. This heat's too much. You sweat easily. Sweat from walking. Sweat at the thought of sweating. Sweat through clothes to where it shows. You take off your hat and squint up at the sun. At this point, you should probably accept the reality of global warming. The ozone thinning again, like they said it was in the '90s, when your sisters used to bomb their hair with Aqua Net and you'd gag and spit in the sink extra loud to let them know you hated it and to remind them about the ozone, how hair spray was the reason the world might burn like it said in Revelation, the next end, the second end after the flood, a flood of fire from the sky this time, maybe from the lack of ozone protection, maybe because of their abuse of Aqua Net. And why did they need their hair three inches in the air, curled over like a breaking wave? Because what? You never knew. Except that all the other girls did it, too. And haven't you also heard or read that the world tilts on its axis ever so slightly every year so that the angle makes the earth like a piece of metal when the sun hits it just right and it becomes just as bright as the sun itself? Haven't you heard that it's getting hotter because of this tilt, this ever-increasing tilt of the earth, which was inevitable and not humanity's fault, not our cars or our emissions or Aqua Net but plain and simple entropy. Or was it atrophy, or was it apathy? You're near downtown, headed for the 19th Street BART station. You walk with a slightly dropped, sunken right shoulder. Just like your dad. The limp, too, right side. You know that this limp could be mistaken for some kind of affect, some lame attempt at gangsta lean, but on some level that you maybe don't even acknowledge you know that walking like you do subverts the straight-postured upright citizenly way of moving one's arms and feet just so, to express obedience, to pledge allegiance to a way of life and to a nation and its laws. Left, right, left, and so on. But have you really cultivated this drop-shouldered walk, this lean to the right, in opposition? Is it really some Native-specific countercultural thing you're going for? Some vaguely anti-American movement? Or do you walk the way your dad walked simply because genes and pain and styles of walking and talking get passed down without anyone even trying? The limp is something you've cultivated to look more like a statement of your individual style and less like an old basketball injury. To get injured and not recover is a sign of weakness. Your limp is practiced. An articulate limp, which says something about the way you've learned to roll with the punches, all the times you've been fucked over, knocked down, what you've recovered from or haven't, what you've walked or limped away from, with or without style. That's on you. You pass a coffee shop you hate because it's always hot and flies constantly swarm the front of the shop, where a big patch of sunlight seethes with some invisible shit the flies love and where there's always just that one seat left, in the heat with the flies, which is why you hate it, on top of the fact that the place doesn't open until 10 in the morning and closes at six in the evening, to cater to all the hipsters and artists who hover and buzz around Oakland like flies themselves, America's white suburban vanilla youth, searching for some invisible thing Oakland can give them, street cred or inner-city inspiration. Before getting to the 19th Street station, you pass a group of white teenagers who size you up. You're almost afraid of them. Not because you think they'll do anything. It's how out of place they are, all the while looking like they own the city. You want to run them down. Scream something at them. Scare them back to wherever they came from. Scare them out of Oakland. Scare the Oakland they've made their own out of them. You could do it, too. You're one of these big, lumbering Indians. Six feet, two-30, chip on your shoulder so heavy it makes you lean, makes everyone see you, your weight, what you carry. Your dad is 1,000% Indian. An overachiever. A recovering alcoholic medicine man from Oklahoma, for whom English is his second language. He loves to gamble and smokes American Spirit cigarettes. He has false teeth and prays for 20 minutes before every meal, asks for help from the Creator for everyone, beginning with the orphan children and ending with the servicemen and servicewomen out there, your 1,000% Indian dad, who cries only in ceremony and has bad knees, which took a turn for the worse when you were 10 and he laid concrete in your back yard for a basketball court. You know your dad could once play ball, knew the rhythm of the bounce, the head fake and eye swivel, pivot shit you learned how to do by putting in time. Sure, he leaned heavily on shots off the glass, but that was the way it used to be done. Your dad told you he hadn't been allowed to play ball in college because he was Indian in Oklahoma. Back in 1963, that was all it took. No Indians or dogs allowed on the courts or in bars. Your dad hardly ever talked about any of that, being Indian in Oklahoma, or even what he felt like now that he was a certifiable urban Indian. Except sometimes. When it suited him. Out of nowhere. You'd be riding in your dad's red Ford truck to Blockbuster to rent a movie. You'd be listening to his peyote tapes. The tape, staticky gourd rattle and kettledrum boom. He liked to play it loud. You couldn't stand how noticeable the sound was. How noticeably Indian your dad was. You'd ask if you could turn it off. You'd put on 106 KMEL, rap or R&B. But then he'd try to dance to that. He'd push his big Indian lips out to embarrass you, stick one flat hand out and stab at the air in rhythm to the beat, just to mess with you. That was when you'd turn the music off altogether. And that was when you might hear a story from your dad about his childhood. About how he used to pick cotton with his grandparents for a dime a day or the time an owl threw rocks at him and his friends from a tree or the time his great-grandma split a tornado in two with a prayer. The chip you carry has to do with being born and raised in Oakland. A concrete chip, a slab, really, heavy on one side, the half side, the not-white side. As for your mom's side, as for your whiteness, there's too much and not enough there to know what to do with. You're from a people who took and took and took and took. And from a people taken. You're both and neither. In the bath, you'd stare at your brown arms against your white legs in the water and wonder what they were doing together on the same body, in the same bathtub. How you ended up getting fired was related to your drinking, which was related to your skin problems, which was related to your father, which was related to history. The one story you were sure to hear from your dad, the one thing you knew for certain about what it means to be Indian, was that your people, Cheyenne people, on November 29, 1864, were massacred at Sand Creek. He told you and your sisters that story more than any other story he could muster. Your dad was the kind of drunk who disappears weekends, lands himself in jail. He was the kind of drunk who had to stop completely. Who couldn't have a drop. So you had it coming, in a way. That need that won't quit. That years-deep pit you were bound to dig, crawl into, struggle to get out of. Your parents maybe burned a too-wide God hole through you. The hole was unfillable. Coming out of your 20s you started to drink every night. There were many reasons for this. But you did it without a thought. Most addictions aren't premeditated. You slept better. Drinking felt good. But mostly, if there was any real reason you could pinpoint, it was because of your skin. You'd always had skin problems. Your dad used to rub peyote gravy on your rashes. That worked for a while. Until he wasn't around anymore. The doctors wanted to call it eczema. They wanted you hooked on steroid creams. The scratching was bad because it only led to more scratching, which led to more bleeding. You'd wake up with blood under your fingernails, a sharp sting wherever the wound moved, because it moved everywhere, all over your body, and blood ended up on your sheets, and you'd wake up feeling like you'd dreamed something as important and devastating as it was forgotten. But there was no dream. There was only the open, living wound, and it itched somewhere on your body at all times. Patches and circles and fields of red and pink, sometimes yellow, bumpy, pus-y, weeping, disgusting, the surface of you. If you drank enough, you didn't scratch at night. You could deaden your body that way. You found your way in and out of a bottle. Found your limits. Lost track of them. Along the way, you figured out that there was a certain amount of alcohol you could drink that could, the next day, produce a certain state of mind, which you over time began to refer to privately as the State. The State was a place you could get to where everything felt exactly, precisely in place, where and when it belonged, you belonged, completely okay in it. Almost like your dad used to say, In'it, like, Isn't that right? Isn't that true? But each bottle you bought was a medicine or a poison, depending on whether you managed to keep it full enough. The method was unstable. Unsustainable. To drink enough but not too much for a drunk was like asking an evangelical not to say the name Jesus. And so playing drums and singing in those classes had given you something else. A way to get there without having to drink and wait and see if the next day the State might emerge from the ashes. The State was based on something you read about James Hampton, years after your trip to D.C. James had given himself a title: Director of Special Projects for the State of Eternity. James was a Christian. You are not. But he was just crazy enough to make sense to you. This is what made sense: he spent 14 years building an enormous piece of art work out of junk he collected in and around the garage he rented, which was about a mile from the White House. The piece was called The Throne of the Third Heaven of the Nations' Millennium General Assembly. James made the throne for Jesus' second coming. What you get about James Hampton is his almost desperate devotion to God. To waiting for his God to come. He made a golden throne from junk. The throne you were building was made of moments, made of experiences in the State after excess drinking, made of leftover, unused drunkenness, kept overnight, dreamed, moon-soaked fumes you breathed into throne form, into a place where you could sit. In the State, you were just unhinged enough to not get in the way. The problem came from having to drink at all. The night before you got fired, drum class was canceled. It was the end of December. The approach of the New Year. This kind of drinking was not about reaching the State. This kind of drinking was careless, pointless, one of the risks, the consequences of being the kind of drunk you were. And will always be, no matter how well you learn to manage it. By night's end, you'd finished a fifth of Jim Beam. A fifth is a lot if you don't work your way up to it. It can take years to drink this way, alone, on random Tuesday nights. It takes a lot from you. Drinking this way. Your liver. The organ doing the most living for you, detoxifying all the shit you put into your body. When you got to work the next day, you were fine. A little dizzy, still drunk, but the day felt normal enough. You went into the conference room. The powwow-committee meeting was happening. You ate what they called breakfast enchiladas when they offered them. You met a new member of the committee. Then your supervisor, Jim, called you into his office, called on the two-way you kept on your belt. When you got to his office, he was on the phone. He covered it with one hand. There's a bat, he said and pointed out to the hallway. Get it out. We can't have bats. This is a medical facility. He said it like you'd brought the bat in yourself. Out in the hallway, you looked up and around you. You saw the thing on the ceiling in the corner near the conference room at the end of the hall. You went and got a trash bag and a broom. You approached the bat carefully, slowly, but when you got close it flew into the conference room. Everyone, the whole powwow committee, heads spinning, watched as you went in there and chased it out. In the hallway, the bat circled around you. It was behind you, and then it was on the back of your neck. It had its teeth or claws dug in. You freaked out and reached back and got the bat by a wing and instead of doing what you should have done, put it in the trash bag you were carrying with you, you brought your hands together and with all your strength, everything you had in you, you squeezed. You crushed the bat in your hands. Blood and thin bones and teeth in a mess in your hands. You threw it down. You would mop it up quick. Wipe clean the whole day. Start over again. But no. The whole powwow committee was there. They'd come out to watch you catch the bat after you'd chased the thing into their meeting. They looked at you with disgust. You felt it, too. It was on your hands. On the floor. That creature. Back in your supervisor's office after you'd cleaned up the mess, Jim gestured for you to sit down. I don't know what that was, he said. Both hands were on top of his head. But it's not something we can tolerate in a medical facility. The thing fucking… Sorry, but the thing fucking bit me. I was reacting. And that would have been okay, Thomas. Only co-workers saw. And I was told you smell like alcohol. Coming to work drunk, I'm sorry, but that's a fireable offense. You know we have a zero-tolerance policy here. He didn't look mad anymore. He looked disappointed. You almost told him that it was from the night before, but maybe that wouldn't have made a difference, because the alcohol was still in you, in your blood. I did not drink this morning, you said. You almost crossed your heart. You'd never even done that when you were a kid. It was something about Jim. He was like a big kid. He didn't want to have to punish you. Crossing your heart seemed like a reasonable way to convince Jim that you were telling the truth. I'm sorry, Jim said. So that's it? I'm being fired? There's nothing I can do for you, Jim said. He stood up and walked out of his own office. Go home, Thomas, he said. You get down to the train platform and appreciate the cool wind or breeze or whatever you call the rush of air the train brings before it arrives, before you even see it or its lights, because of how much it cools your sweaty head. You find a seat at the front of the train. The robot voice announces the next stop, by saying or not saying, exactly, but whatever it's called when robots speak, The next station is 12th Street Oakland City Center. You remember your first powwow. Your dad took you and your sisters, after the divorce, to a Berkeley high-school gym, where your old family friend Paul danced over the basketball lines with that crazy-light step, that grace, even though Paul was pretty big, and you'd never thought of him as graceful before. But that day you saw what a powwow was and you saw that Paul was perfectly capable of grace and even some kind of Indian-specific cool, with footwork not unlike break dancing, and the effortlessness that cool requires. The train moves and you think of your dad and how he took you to that powwow after the divorce, how he had never taken you before, when you were younger, and you wonder if it was your mom and her Christianity, the reason you didn't go to powwows or do more Indian things. The train emerges, rises out of the underground tube in the Fruitvale district, over by that Burger King and the terrible pho place, where East 12th and International almost merge, where the graffitied apartment walls and abandoned houses, warehouses, and auto-body shops appear, loom in the train window, stubbornly resist all of Oakland's new development. Just before the Fruitvale station, you see the old brick church you always notice because of how run-down and abandoned it looks. You feel a rush of sadness for your mom and her failed attempt to make you believe, for your failed family. How everyone lives in different states now. How you never see them. How you spend so much time alone. You want to cry and you feel as if you might, but know that you can't, that you shouldn't. Crying ruins you. You gave it up long ago. But the thoughts keep coming, about your mom and your family at a certain time when the magical over and underworld of your Oakland-spun Christian evangelical end-of-the-world spirituality seemed to come to life to take you, all of you. You remember it so clearly, that time. Before anyone was awake, your mom was crying into her prayer book. You knew this because you saw the tearstains in her prayer book. You looked into that book more than once because you wanted to know what questions she might have asked God, what private conversations she might have had with Him, she who spoke that mad-angel language of tongues in church, she who fell to her knees, she who fell in love with your dad in Indian ceremonies that she later called demonic. Your train leaves the Fruitvale station, which makes you think of Dimond Park, which makes you think of Vista Street. That was where it all happened, where your family lived and died. Your older sister, DeLonna, was heavily into PCP, angel dust. That was when you found out that you don't need religion to be slain, for the demons to come out with their tongues. One day after school, DeLonna smoked too much PCP. She came home and it was clear to you that she was out of her mind. You could see it in her eyes, DeLonna's eyes without DeLonna behind them. And then there was her voice, that low, deep, guttural sound. She yelled at your dad and he yelled back and she told him to shut up and he did shut up because of that voice. She told him that he didn't even know which God he was worshiping, and soon after that DeLonna was on the floor of your sister Christine's room, foaming at the mouth. Your mom called an emergency prayer circle, friends from church, and they prayed over her and she foamed and writhed and eventually stopped when that part of the high wore off, the drug dimmed, her eyes closed, the thing was done with her. When she woke up, your mom gave her a glass of milk, and when she was back, with her normal voice and her normal eyes, she didn't remember any of it. Later, your mom said that taking drugs was like sneaking under the gates into the Kingdom of Heaven. It seemed to you more like the Kingdom of Hell, but maybe the Kingdom of Heaven is bigger and more terrifying than we can ever know. Maybe we've all been speaking the broken tongue of angels and demons for too long to know that that's what we are, who we are, what we're speaking. Maybe we don't die but change, always in the State, without ever even knowing that we're in it. When you get off at the Coliseum station, you walk over the pedestrian bridge with butterflies in your stomach. You do and don't want to be there. You want to drum but also to be heard drumming. Not as yourself but as the drum. The big drum sound that makes the dancers dance. You don't want to be seen by anyone from work. The shame of your drinking and showing up to work with the smell still on you is too much. Getting attacked by the bat and crushing it in front of them is part of it, too. You go through the metal detector at the front and your belt gets you another go-through. You get the beep the second time because of change in your pocket. The security guard is an older black guy who doesn't seem to care much about anything but avoiding the beeping of the detector. Take it out, anything, anything in your pockets, take it out, he says. That's all I got, you say. But when you walk through it beeps again. You ever have surgery? the guy asks you. What? I don't know, maybe you have a metal plate in your head or— Nah, man, I got nothing metal on me. Well, I gotta pat you down now, the guy says, like it's your fault. All right, you say and put your arms up. After he pats you down, he gestures for you to walk through again. This time when it beeps he just waves you on. About 10 feet away, you're looking down as you walk and you realize what it was. Your boots. Steel toe. You started wearing them when you got the job. Jim recommended it. You almost go back to tell the guy, but it doesn't matter anymore. You find Bobby Big Medicine under a canopy. He nods up then tilts his head toward an open seat around the drum. There's no small talk. Grand Entry song, Bobby says to you, because he knows everyone else knows. You pick up your drumstick and wait for the others. You hear the sound but not the words that the powwow m.c. is saying, and you watch for Bobby's stick to go up. When it does, it feels as though your heart stops. You wait for the first hit. You pray a prayer in your head to no one in particular about nothing in particular. You clear a way for a prayer by thinking nothing. Your prayer will be the hit and the song and the keeping of time. Your prayer will begin and end with the song. Your heart starts to hurt from lack of breath when you see his drumstick go up and you know they're coming, the dancers, and it's time. That was Tommy Orange reading his story, The State. This is his first piece of fiction in the magazine. You can hear more New Yorker fiction read by the authors on newyorker.com and on The New Yorker apps available from the App Store or from Google Play. On The New Yorker Fiction podcast, we invite writers to choose stories from the magazine's archives to read and discuss. This month, Lorrie Moore reads Naked Ladies by Antonya Nelson. You can subscribe to that and other New Yorker podcasts by searching for The New Yorker in your podcast app. Tell us what you thought of this podcast by rating and reviewing the writer's voice in Apple podcasts on iTunes. Our theme music is by Jordan Batiste and Ross Michaels of North American Plastics. The writer's voice is produced by Jill Du Boff and <inaudible> of newyorker.com. I'm Deborah Treisman. Thanks for listening. 

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+<unk:rock_music_intro> This is Skidmarks Show, the Internet's favorite podcast. And by favorite, we mean the most popular show about cars and rock stars that has Jeff Allen and Ethan D on it. The bar is set low. Join us as we streak across America leaving Skidmarks on your heart and tire smoke in your lungs. Stream us, download us, like us, share us and give us five star reviews everywhere you go. And follow us on social media as we go on crazy adventures around the country, proving that we must've impressed someone important because we have no idea why they keep letting us do this stuff. Powered by Pennnzoil. Hey this is Satchel from Steel Panther and you're listening to Skidmarks Show, OWWW! Hey this is Aaron Hagar and you're listening to the Skidmarks Show. I love all you guys. Hey word up everyone, it's Corey Taylor here and you're listening to the Skidmarks Show cause why wouldn't you be? Skidmarks Show, episode 66, Jeff Allen and Ethan D, hosting this debacle we call Skidmarks Show. That right man, we're back in the studio, I'm here for just a limited time. I've got to run out real quick. Oh yeah? Yeah, Goodguys is going on man. I've got auto class. How we gonna do a show? Can't you see I'm in my fire suit. I've got my helmet on. I'm ready to go. I thought you were just dressing sexy for us. No, no, ah, there's, a purpose. There is a purpose? Yeah, the car's in the trailer, we're waiting to go. Alright. Let's get this show on the road. You look like you're ready to light something on fire. I'm ready to go, baby. I've got to get this show going and get out of here. I've got to get to Goodguys, man, at Texas Motor Speedway. I'm doing some auto crossing, in the epic, the undisputed, world champion of cool cars, a '63 Ford Falcon, known as Ronin. So you say you're going racing? Yes. You're not just wearing a fire suit for my benefit. No. Okay, you're going to Goodguys? Goodguys, doing some auto crossing, man. I've got to tear it up with the boys out there. What if we started a show that was our own thing and called it Greatguys, right? What if we started called Badguys? <laugh> There's already… Chicks always like bad dudes, right? Yeah. So Badguys would probably sell out. <crosstalk> and chicks dig scares. That's it. I don't really want to get on our first guest, but let's go ahead <crosstalk>. You're the one wearing the fire suit. <laugh> You're the one covered in protection. Okay, before this gets stupid, our first guest on episode 66 is Gidi. <unk:rock_music_plays> So next up, we're going to have Gidi Chamdi on the show. And what is exciting about this guy, he's the first ever to run a six second quarter mile in a GTR. What? Yeah, six seconds. Six seconds? IN A GTR! Now, wait a that's like faster than, everything? Well, it's faster, it's faster than seven seconds. <laugh> <laugh> Okay, well, ah, obvious stuff aside, that's faster than, it, it, It's fast, it's real fast. That's like… To bust into six seconds, it is totally. Yeah. <unk:phone_ringing> And not only that, he just won the GTR World Cup for the second time. Hello. Hello. Hello, is this Gidi Chamdi? Yes sir. Wow. Hey Gidi. This is Jeff Allen and Ethan D and you're on Skidmarks Show. Oh, nice, nice, thanks. Okay, Jeff was just telling me that you did a quarter mile in a GTR in ah, six seconds. A little bit more than six, 6.93, but yeah, it's considered in the six's. Well yeah, that is in the six's. Um, did, were, like, wow, how did that… Yeah. That's madness, man. Well, he didn't start with doing six second, you know, quarter mile. No, but he got there. I mean, that's like, you know. Yeah. That's, damn, damn near top fuel dragster kind of stuff you're looking at. Ah, we'll you've got to shave another three seconds, but yeah, you're getting close. Right, he's getting close. We're working on it. Did you hear that? He's working on it. Right, but in a GTR, and not a top fuel funny car or anything. Exactly. And he's in a road tested, and this car can still drive on the street, right? Unh, unh. It can drive on the street. It's not a street legal, but, the, the point is, it's, ah, it's ah, it's ah basically a stock chasse. You know, it's not a tube, it's not a, it's a car that was meant for the street that all we did was change the motor, the trans, the axles, the… Does it still have turn signals? Ah no, we took those off. <laugh:both_laugh> Okay. Cause I don't think I'm going to be using those on the track. Well yeah, I should hope not. I've seen the… Yeah. I've seen the video footage in the past, um, you know, and it was, it was quite a wh, ride, cause here you are, you're at the TX2K 17. Yeah. Which is Huston, I mean, it's our neighbors right down the road. Correct. And he did a pass at a 6.937 at 196.2 miles per hour. Whow! In a quarter of a mile. Yeah, but you've got to, you need to know the back, the whole story behind it. Of course. This was, this was a global chase for the six's. Oh. I mean, there were cars in Dubai, there's cars pretty much, all GTR's were gunning for the six's. And we were all fighting for it, and it kept on, we kept on going to the track and breaking, and failing and breaking. And everybody else in Dubai was failing and breaking. And everybody else in America that was chasing it. So it was, it was for about a year, the whole world was fixated on whose gonna get to six's first. And um, you know, that, that whole TX2K had story behind it cause we blew up a motor. We had to change our tranie, all before the 6.93. Did it catch on fire? It caught on fire, and so, we had, we had quite a trip, um, that trip. And, and, and that, you know, the guys ended up swapping two motors on, on the track, and a trans on the track. And um, we came in, luckily we came in like a day early to test things. And that's when we caught on fire, we had to change everything. And then we blew a motor, we had to change the motor, and then the trans. And so we kept on working through problems and at the end of the, it was probably our last chance. It was that's it, you either do it now or not. We tested the new motor, it went 7.12 at 200 and some miles an hour. Everything was working perfect. And ah, then we got to the line, basically the whole place was just standing up, look, you know, waiting for the <unk:spas>, cause this was it. And um, we ended up, I ended up doing the pass. It didn't shift into fifth gear, so we did it in forth gear. Um, and still got it, so if it would've shifted into fifth, we would have ran a tiny bit quicker. But 196 miles an hour for a six second pass is not, is, is slow, but we got everything on the short track and then that's why we got the 6.93. But it was quite, quite the um, experience at the TX2K. So take us back, man, cause you were saying this is a worldwide GTR hunt for this time. And you did it here in Texas. Yes. How, how did you get involved? How long has this been um, I guess ah, a worldwide challenge going on and how did you get started in it? Well I, I mean, I was always competitive in the GTR world, not always, but in the last three years, was competitive in GTR world. And um, I crashed in 2016 or 15, I don't remember, I hit, I had an Alpha 20, that at the time was the biggest built from AMS. And I hit the wall in um, in Ohio. And I crashed that car, and the next day I called AMS, the company that, that basically built the car, and I said, You know what, I want to get a car that will go, you know, that would be, take the record with it. And I, I had another GTR that was kind of a back up GTR that I was just driving on the street. And I said, Let's turn that one into a race car. Um, and then they said, Okay, let's do it. So I sent them the backup car. It took them about eight months to build it. Um, it was like an unprecedented build, like was never done before by AMS. And um, they tested it, everything, we came into TX2K, before last year. So last year was what, TX2K 17? Yes. We did it. We used the car at TX2K 16 and then form TX2K 16 to TX2K 17 we were chasing the record. We got the record, and then there was a chase for the six's. So the record at the time when I got it was 7.14. And from that point on everybody was like, Okay, that's great, but now it's first to the six's. So there's a, there's a um, team in Dubai that's, it's called <unk:Inkanu> and you know, the guys, they're great guys, but he has a lot of money. And, and basically we're trying to compete with a country, with a, with a team that has so much money, um, and try to get to the six's first. And we got it. I eman, this hobby will kill you financially. It makes no sense to do this. <laugh:both_laugh> This, we, we don't make any money for this. This is basically just bragging right. Um, it's, it's just, it's insanity, but I, I love it. So, you know, it's something that once you get into, it's very hard to say, you, ah, I'm out of here. Well. I was close many times. I was close cause I, I, I can't tell you how many times I blew up. People only, only see the successes, they don't see the failures behind the scenes. They don't see me flying to Chicago going to a track day, coming to the track all excited, getting into the car, first pass, Boom, car breaks down. Okay, but it back on track, on the, on the trailer, get in, good bye and go five/six hours to San Francisco. I mean, you know it's, ah, it will break you down, beat you up, and then smash you to the floor. You know, but you've just got to persevere, and, and fight through it. And I was close many times, to say, Why, why am I doing this? It makes no sense, you know. <laugh> I guess if you can do it though. And, and it's available to you, you're going to right? Yeah, yeah, I, I'm never going to stop this, this. This for me, it's something that I, nothing else excite me in life as much as, as racing. And um, you know, I was lucky to have some great achievements in the past three years, so it just pushes you to move forward and, and push through the, the hardships. And, and that's what I'm going to do. Well, and lets, we're going back up here. I mean, he just was, he just fast forwarded all the way to the Alpha G, GTR. Yeah. Okay, well we need to, let's go all the way back because, you know a few years back, in ah, Colorado Springs, I met you there. Yes. At a S3ctor, a Shift-S3ctor event. Yes. At the air strip attack. Yes, I think I remember. And at the time, I was running my stock GTR <unk:Penzilla>, which is now an Alpha-9+. Oh, boy. But so, it gives you an idea of the, what he's talking about. So he just jumped to Alpha-20. But he didn't just start with Alpha-20. No, no, no. He started, you know, I mean. <unk:Penzilla's> Alpha-9. Plus. Plus. You know I actually, I actually started, <crosstalk> Which is basically, um, on E85, it's a 1,050 on a, on 93 octane. It's running about 850. Whoa. Right, so can you imagine when he say, when he… Alpha-20. He sped up to Alpha-20, and we, we skipped a lot of the story because according to, you know, my records, you bought the first GTR in 2013. Correct. Right. So yeah, I, I started actually as, with just an exhaust. And by accident I ran into this event um, that was in um, I drove the car for seven hours. It was called Shift S3ctor, this event that was just these two guys came up with this idea, and then they ran out of track and um, Willow Springs. And I drove from San Francisco to Willow Springs with the GTR. And I think it was like a seven/eight hour drive over there. I drove with a friend and um, it was a freezing day over there at, um, over there at um, Willow Springs. So it was kind of in the winter time. Anyway, they, we did a track, a little circuit um, thing that they had. And at the end of that, they told us, Hey, let's do this straight line racing. Um, you know, We'll line you guys up and you guys race one another. And it ended up, I think I lined up against a Porsche, I don't remember exactly. But anyway, from that moment on, when I won that little straight away, it was over. I asked Jason, the, the, the um, the guy that organized it all, I said, When is the next event that you guys are going to have? He said, You know what, we're going to do this event in a, in a, um, ah air field in Cotinga if you want to come down, it's going to be in six or seven months. I went back home, I sent the car to somebody. I said, Build me a 900 horsepower car cause I gotta go out there and I gotta win that event. <laugh> And that all started, from, from basically a 540 horsepower car. Then we ended up going to Shift S3ctor, I ended up, I think I ended up winning the first one that I went to. And that's where I met Lucas. And from that point on, me and Lucas have constantly been um, been competitors, whether in the half mile, the quarter mile, we've been just fighting each other back and forth. We're good friends, of course, but it, we had this amazing rivalry with, with Lucas from ETS, I mean from English Racing. Um, and then I kept going to every Shift S3ctor after that. And then we got a Lambo so we moved into the Lambo platform for the half mile. And I turned the car, the GTR into a quarter mile only car. Wow. So it, it started from 900, and then we went to 1,200 horsepower, 1,400 horsepower, 1,600 horsepower, 1,800, in, in, in these exact increments. <unk:both_hosts_laugh> Alpha-9, Alpha-10, Alpha-14, Alpha-16, Alpha-18, Alpha-20 and Alpha-G. Geez. And Alpha-G. Alpha-G. And now we fast forward to Alpha G. Alpha G. And that, that stands for G-forces out the back of your brain. Oh, totally. Yeah. Totally, totally. Totally. It took the street right out of it. Yeah, yeah. I love it. <laugh> Like you said, you could drive it on the street, it's not going to be really good for that. Right, not legal, yeah. Yeah, it's not going to be fun. <laugh> <crosstalk> Now, you just mentioned the Lamborghini's. Yes. So you also just set another world record, right? Yeah, with a Lambo, with a, with an orange Lambo, with a yellow Lambo actually. Yellow. We went 200, yeah, 257 miles an hour with that. Well, I guess at that speed maybe it would look orange. <laugh> Yeah, you can't do much <crosstalk>. You went how fast? 256.999 miles an hour. Holy Cow! Did, what… It's, it's not the speed, it's the distance that we achieved. He did it in half a mile. And that car, and that car is street legal, man. That car will go on the street. That car will be enjoyable on the street. And, and that's the beauty of the Lambo platform. You don't have to turn them into a full, full on race car to achieve these amazing speeds with them. They have four more cylinders in them and, and it goes a long way. So, so Gidi I see a pattern here. So first off, it was like, Hey, I'm gotta have this GTR, I'm gonna race. NO, I'm gonna win every event I can. <laugh> Take, take as many as I can. Now, wait a minute, now at the time, because this is, this is also a big feud that going on, between the GTR's and the Lambo's. And the Lambo. Yeah, it's called, you know the GTR's caught going Lambo hunting and vice versa. Yeah. It's a, it's a big back and forth thing. So then he says, Well, I've, I've done, I've pretty much conquered everything in the GTR category, let's switch gears and go to Lambo, and I'll just crush everybody there too. Holy cow. Yeah. Well not, actually the way, when, when I, the GTR's are great for quarter mile, they're good for half mile, but when you start pushing them to death like when you're going 220, 230, there's so much more pressure on that motor. I mean, think about it, it's a six cylinder. There's so much more that it has to take. So much more abuse that it ends up breaking a little bit more than the Lambo's because the Lambo's have four more cylinders. So they're not working as hard to achieve the same speed. Ah, and they're lighter, ah, so you don't have to push so much of that weight that the GTR has on it. It is, it is a fat kid on cake. Right. That's for sure, I mean when you look at the, well, the GTR is a fat kid on cake. Oh, it's a fat cow. <crosstalk>. That is a very, very heavy car for what we do with it. Um, of course mine is not as heavy as a, as a stock one. But starting out, with a GTR, I mean, it's a 4,000 pound car. Right. Ah, it's a cow, it's a cow. So, but what we figured out is, that it's easier on the Lambo's to go the half mile. So I said, Why am I killing the GTR in the half? Let's just keep the GTR for the quarter mile and designate it, make it a drag car, and let's work with the Lambo's to do a little bit better in the half, for the half mile. So that was the idea behind it. And, and it ended up being pretty good because the Lambo's, I feel, do and can and will go even faster. And you got to remember, we now have Billet Blocks in the Lambo's. Billet Blocks got into the GTR's about two years ago. Now we have Billet Blocks in the Lambo's. We're just starting what we can push now with the Lambo's. We can push them a lot further. Once the Billet Blocks are going to be in, bigger turbos, so they can go much, much further. The GTR already are on the Billet Blocks, so <crosstalk>. And I think, one of the things that's amazing me right now, that some people may not have picked up on, is I, I remember ten years ago. The Bugatti Veyron comes out, 1,000 horsepower production line car. It took miles for it to get up to it's top speed of you know, to 40 whatever. You're doing that in a Lambo now, in a quarter mile. Half mile. Half mile. Half mile. Half mile. Still. Half mile on an un-preped track. On an un-preped track, ah, you're getting it up faster than that, over 250 miles an hour in a half mile! Um-mm-hmm <affirmative> That's just madness. That is insanity. <laugh:everyone_laughs> If it can go, I, I, in that car, the, the, I mean, what we're gonna progress with the Lambo's, they're still a long ways to go. I mean, we can talk about in a year and a half, look back at the 257 and go, puuuuhh, we thought that was a big deal. You know, but I, I think that will, those cars will a lot faster than that in the half. So we're just starting on that. This is good times in the racing world right now. It's just exciting times for me because everything is progressing so much, so fast. So do you see taking the Lambo to the distance and, and, and as far as you did the GTR? And as far as a true race car? Or, or you going to keep it more street-able? If, if was up to me I would, I would, I would make it more race because I, you know, I, it's not, it is a car that you can drive on the street. I don't drive it on the street. I, I like to take everything to the extreme. Um, I think it will be because as the GTR become um, you know, they can, when, when you look at the GTR in the half mile that's competing in that. The only car that's competing right now is the ETS car. But that car is a gutted out car. So we're going with a full interior car against a gutted out car. But now they started, well Prestige has a gutted, not gutted but a, but a race car Huracan. I don't know if you've seen that green one. So we're starting to turn em into race cars. The, the, the thing with the Lambo's is they're so expensive, it's not like turning GTR into a race car. You're turning a $300,000 car into a race car. So it, it, it takes a little bit more getting used to but, but eventually I think, we'll definitely will see more full on race Lambo's. And don't forget the Huracan's are just getting into the quarter mile game. In my opinion, in a year or two, it's a superior platform. In a year or two, the, the Huracan's will do some amazing stuff in, in the quarter mile. You're, you're throwing down the gauntlet. <laugh> Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean those, those cars are amazing. I mean, the Huracan's, they just have so much potential, and we're just starting. I mean, think about it, the GTR has been, we've been playing with the GTR since 2007 / 2008. Um, the Huracan's just came out in 2015, so there, there's so much more to that platform and, and it will just get better and better over time in my opinion. Now, you just won the GTR World Cup for the second time. Yes. Tell me how that feels. It feels great. Um, you know, I really like that event. Um, it, it's not like a normal event where you've got a million people. It's more exclusive. A lot of GTR's come out. It's a really fun event. The place the that we stay at and at night everybody's together. And there's a big dinner. And just for me, it's a lot of fun. There, there's the racing part and then there's the friendship part that you hang out with all the friends and everybody at the end of the night. And, and, and, and at the bar, it's a lot of fun for me. So it's, it's great. We had a, we had a car, we, I mean, that was the last event for the collaboration between me and AMS so we wanted to go out with a bang. Um, we were fighting some issues the whole time with the clutch slipping. Um, we're at the point where the GTR's, where the clutches are starting to not be able to hold the power and, and we see it more and more. So we couldn't, I couldn't do as, as good as I wanted to. Um, and it just um you know, it didn't happen. Well… But made it happen, we got the win. So the fastest car does not always win. The, the T1 car was doing much better, in the beginning. I mean, it had one run, but it ran an amazing 7.14 at 205 miles an hour. I was at the line watching that run. It always blows me away when you're in the car, you don't see or feel. I mean, you just concentrating on driving the car straight and fighting it the whole way down the track. But you don't hear, feel, or see the power that these cars produce. And the way they launch off the line, is just that ah, it always blows me away. So I was at the line, that thing made a wheelie, like two feet off the ground, and just went 205 miles an hour off the trailer. And I was like, Oh shit, how am I going to win, how am I going to beat this guy? <laugh:both_laugh> Ha, ha, especially when we were running 7. 50's um, you know, slipping the whole way down the track. So you know, we got lucky. Ah, you know, he got a little off. Um, the start that he had, he got close to the wall, he had to pedal it, then he had some kind of problem with the, the throttle bodies. And, and um, we managed to pull the win. So you know, I was really happy. It's not the optimal way for me to win a race, but that, that's racing. Sometimes the car that breaks the least wins the race. And so that's what ended up happening. But it was, it was a good, great event. You know, I, I really enjoyed it. I look forward to the one next year. And it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. Just the whole sport of the street cars um, is getting more and more mainstream. More people are discovering it. More people find interest in it. More people are coming out to each event that we go out to. Um, each time we go to an event it gets bigger. Look at the TX2K, it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. So it's, it's only going to get better from here and that's it. That's why I mean it's a really exciting time right now. Well, I think we're going to see the Lambo World Cup in the future. Probably. Yeah. I, I, I, I hope somebody comes up with the Lambo World Cup, that would be great. The problem is again, you have to remember this is just the start of the Lambo's and, and not a lot of people want to buy a $300,000 car and turn it into a race car. But, but… Yeah, some of us, if we had a $300,000 car, we're kind of like that's a lot of money for a car. I'm not gonna mess it up. Yeah, they just want to drive it on the street. Yeah. <laugh> Gidi, you say that, but you know, UGR, Underground Racing, has been tuning Lambo's for years. Correct. You know, even back with the Gallardo, was, and that was when everybody was starting to go, wait a minute, Lamborghini is not the exotic fragile car that it use to be. True. Yes. It was actually a well built, well engineered vehicle that you could modify. Yes. And that's kind of where Lambo's kind of left Ferrari in the dust a little bit is because of the modifications that you can do with it. Yeah, cause you don't see Ferrari's in track applications like this, ever. No. No, I haven't, I haven't ever seen one. No, hum-mm-hmm <negative>. And they need too. They really need to step into the next generation but I think because of the collaboration between Lambo and Audi, they've created a platform with that V-10. They've made it available to the everyday driver. No, no Well, I don't want to say everyday driver, cause these guys are dropping so much money into theirs, there's nothing every day about it. Yes. But it's, it's guys that are into motor sports can get into that with a Lamborghini, ah, platform, with that set up. Whereas they couldn't do it, you know, with the Ferrari stuff. Well, and the word bullet proof. Yeah. Was never used with the word Lamborghini, but now it is. Right. Because, it, you know that was a word that was used with Porsche in a three later, you know, air cooled motor. Right. You know, ah, that, that motor's bullet proof in the G-50 transmission, bullet proof. You know, and you never heard that with a Lamborghini or Ferrari, or anything that exotic. Yeah. And then once the Gallardo came out, everybody was modifying them. They could twin turbo em, they could supercharge them. They were putting a lot of horsepower into these vehicles. And the, the car was actually holding up. Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of unheard of in the exotic realm, you know. Yeah, because the, the Lambo is just such a great platform. I mean, you have a V-10, you have an all wheel drive, you have the weight, you have all these things that make you go, Shit man, I could turn this into a badass race car if we do this, this, and this, if we add the turbo's to it. We're blessed to have chops like UGR that know, that know what they're doing and actually are, are building amazing products ah, that prove themselves every time we go to a half mile event. And now we're getting into the quarter mile game. Um, so things are only going to get faster and better. The Ferrari's you've gotta, you've gotta eight cylinder, you have rear wheel drive, so it's not as um, attractive as, as, the, the Lambo's. It's not as much potential, but you know, you just have to have the one guy that goes, You know what, I'm going to turn this into a race car. And then another guy. Usually people see something and if it succeeds they, they will take that plunge you know, and try it, somebody's… Right. You know, there's also <crosstalk> an attitude between if you look at like ah, Ferrari, if you picture the Ferrari owner in their mind, those people are going, I bought Ferrari, it's the top of the line car. Yes. You picture Lamborghini people now, nowadays, and they're like, Ow, I can make this better. Or somebody buys a Ferrari, Oh, it's the best, it's the best there is. You know. Trust me, there's a, there's a group of Ferrari people that are a little jealous of the Lambo. Right. And I'm one. Yeah. Cause I'm a hardcore Ferrari guy. But I, I go, Okay, do I buy the Italia? Right. Or do I sit there… You wouldn't buy a La Ferrari and sit there and go, I could make it better. You, you want to. You want to, but you're like, you're not, I don't want to, I'm, I'm scared to touch it. It's a La Ferrari. Yeah. Correct. Well, nobody's gonna be out there really racing it. Nobody's doing it with a La Ferrari. Let's, let's face it. I'm just saying. But I'm, yeah. There's an attitude. And, and it's not like these guys are running ah, Aventador's either. Right. They're not doing that either. They're running the Huracan's and the Gallardo's. And it's because of the platform that's there. And what's available. Yeah. So if we started a Skidmarks Show, a half mile air strip attack, with Fiat's, are you in? Like a Fiat Abarth? <laugh> I, I, I, <crosstalk> at 150. See I would be, I would be scared with what he would show up with. I know, right. <laugh> It would be like a 5,000 horsepower, Fiat 500. <laugh> Fiat Pop, convertible. <laugh:everyone_laughs> With the top down, absolutely. I'll be there watching. Okay. <laugh:everyone_laughs> I'll tell you what, the next Pike's Peak is going to be unbelievable. The one's that's coming up. Um, we're going to be there with that yellow car. GTS is coming with their car. That, that Pike's Peak is going to be pretty crazy. Um, the next, what attracts me, in the future, is to do, try to do a mile with a, with a, Lambo and try to get that 300. Ow. That, that for me, is the next, is the next exciting thing. Yeah. And the next challenge. We just need time and, and, and money to build a car like that. I actually have a car that we can use for that. Um, we just need to test it. But I believe we can go, that yellow car will go 300 in a mile, in my opinion. I usually don't say things before I do it, but I, I just… You just did. Yeah, you just did it. You said it, public record. Yeah, yeah, one of the first times I do it, I usually don't talk. First I do then I talk. But I, I feel that, that yellow car can go 300 in um, in a mile. Well that is definitely the next bar that people want to jump over, so. Yeah, because 4GT, that's the 4GT, that, that 4GT rules in a mile. And we get the speed so much faster. If you take a 4GT and run it in a half, I think the fastest 4GT in a half is 2, I don't think they ran a 220, to tell you the truth. Boy. They just take longer to get to speed because it's a rear wheel drive car. We get to speed much quicker, and I'll hold the speed, you know, and I, and we can just continuously gain. But we just need to test it and do a little, a few changes. We need higher gearing. Um, but I just feel that, that the Lambo is superior to the GT um, and can go 300. We just got to go out and do it. So basically 300 is the goal? <crosstalk> Yeah. That's what everybody's gunning for. It's the next goal. GT ran 293, I think is the fastest GT, 293 / 294. I don't remember exactly in a mile. Um, I mean, think about it, we went 257 in a half, and you've got another half. Of course, it's not going to double, but it still, I, I just feel, I really want to try it. And um, it's up to, it's up to the guys at UGR, we'll see um, if we can do something like that. But that would be pretty exciting. Well, Gidi, we're going to be watching. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And when you break that 300, you better call us back and go back on the show, so we can have the celebratory episode. Yes, sir. We'll say, Remember we talked about that, and now we did it. Alright. That's right. Thank you for joining us, my friend. Alright, thank you for having me. Take care. Alright, bye-bye. <unk:rock_music> And now, Jeff calls Ethan from Goodguys at the Texas Motor Speedway. <unk:phone_rings> Hello, hello. Hi, how's it going? Hey man, it couldn't be better if I was on fire. Well, I, yeah, no, that wouldn't sound like that would be better in any situation. No, no, I'm just so excited, you know, that I'm out here racing at Texas Motor Speedway with Goodguys, with the Lone Star Nationals. You know, after an epic week in Las Vegas, for the Pennzoil 400, I just got the itch that I had to drive fast, race, legally, yes. All those, check all those boxes, and it all lead me right back to Dallas, to Goodguys for the Goodguys auto cross. Yeah, we were um, at the Pennzoil 400 in Vegas, went down in the pits, standing right there, watching those cars fly by at 200 miles an hour. It'll make anybody want to get behind the wheel and do some hot laps. Heck yeah it will, I mean, we were watching, it was, it was epic, it was epic to be part of it for the inaugural Pennzoil 400, you know. Unfortunately Joey Logano didn't win. It would have been cool to see him come through there and do some skidmarks through the Pennzoil Logo. But you know what, it was still a victory. It was great for Pennzoil. I mean the whole place, I mean, not only did they paint Las Vegas Speedway yellow, but almost all Las Vegas, was almost yellow that whole weekend. Oh yeah, a lot of that was and ah, some of that dirt out there in that dessert is close to naturally yellow anyways. And ah, and ah I like to pee outside a lot, so there you go. Alright, well there you have it. <laugh> So anyway, I'm at Goodguys and I've got to tell you something. It is so cool to be out here. They've got auto cross set up. I don't know if you know about their 2018 schedule, but every national event, everybody's shooting for what they call the 16 car shootout, which happens Saturday afternoon. And we're early into Friday right now, I've got about five laps in. We are running 15th out of a 32 car field. Tomorrow's gonna be, ah probably ah, I want to guess, there's going to be about 20 more cars join us. You know, cause maybe some people couldn't get off on Friday. But ah, you know, I definitely had to come in here and get some seat time behind the wheel, cause this is the first time really that I get to drive ah, Ronin consecutively, like you know, in the same pattern. Even when we did Optima, you know, Ultimate Street Car Invitational. One day it was a road course, next day it was an auto cross, next day it was a speed stop. You know what I mean. So this is repetitive, same course, going head-to-head against all these other amateurs, plus the pro's that are here. Now, you're at Texas Motor Speedway, but you're not just doing the oval, cause that's like two and a half miles. It's one of the biggest ovals in NASCAR. Are you, is, is the whole track in the infield there? Or is part of it out on the oval and go back in? How's the track there at Goodguys? No, you're basically just killing cones. And the whole thing is set up on one end of the in-field. And, and actually pretty tight course. You know, we had no idea that we would be making so many 180 's in Ronin. And it's really not set up to do 180 's. But I can't complain cause the car's on fire. It is running better than she ever has. You know, we're, we're not sticking as well as we'd like you know, coming out of the corners and stuff. But, you know, the whole deal is, sometimes less is, is more. And in this case I've got so much horsepower. And on the back straights we are literally just lighting the tires the whole way down the straights. So, your skid marking? It's cool for the fans. Anybody watching from the fence is like, Yeah, do that again. You know, so it's kind of fun to see that happen. Having a hard time getting the power down? I think, yeah, well, you know, we're only running at 275 tire, even when you look at some of the ah, you know, running NT05's from then on, it's a great tire. Especially from a performance, performance end. But a lot of the pros are running like a 355 in the rear. So you know, you got, any time your wider, wider is better, you know you're getting more of a patch that's connecting to the surface. And that's what you want. Especially if you're trying to hook up. Um, or you want to stick to your tire like a race compound. But in an event like this, you have to run a 200 tread ware street tire approved DOT tires. So it's not like you can come in here with some, you could come in here with some race compound tires, but your definitely gonna get kicked into what they call the fun class. Ah, I got cha. So, we will, we want to stay competitive, we want to see how it's going to hook up because we want to do a few more of these events. And we wanted to set this one as our training zone. Like, okay, we're coming into this, first time out. How's the car set up? How's it handling? How's the driver? And I've got to tell you, the car should be in the top ten, but it's probably going to be driver error that's going to not put it in the top ten because ah, let's just say, I hooked a couple cones out there today. <laugh> <laugh> But you know what, those cones deserved it. They were looking at you ugly. That's right. That's what I said. I said, Yay, you're in the way. No, it's a, it's, it's, a cool, course. The one thing I like about it is anybody can come out and do it. And they, they let you run on Friday. They let you run all day Friday, all day Saturday, and part of the day Sunday. And I'm like, you can't get that kind of driving experience or that kind of racing in on any other kind of event. Like, you know, for the dollar amount. I mean, I think it was like $35 or $45 and I preregistered. Really? And you get three days of racing? Yeah, I've gone to some events and spent more than that and got three runs in. So for anybody that's out there that has any kind of car they just want to go out and have fun and learn car control with it. And it fits the age range, cause you know what, Goodguys just extended the age range. It used to be they stopped at 72. Now they stop at 87. So now you've got all these other cars that are showing up in here that are going to be super competitive because you know, technology got more advanced as we win. So like my '63 Ford Falcon, even though it's not stock, it's far from stock. It's still gonna be competing against ah, more modern muscle cars because every thing has to have an American power plant, from what I understand. So you have to have an American motor in it, but it doesn't necessarily have to be an American car. Oh. It just has to fit the age range. So, you know, last time we were out here, we saw a 914 Porsche with flared finders. And I love 914 Porsche with flared finders. It was even running a small block 383 stroker motor in it, you know. How did he get a small block into a 914? Those things are awesome and tiny but they're like what, a foot and a half off the ground. Well, what you do is, if you look at a 914, it's, it's true <inaudible> so that the motor is completely right behind the back seat. And so what they do is, they extend that into the trunk area and open that up. That's how they do that. Oh. So, it, it, it's been done for years. Um, usually makes the car a little too heavy compared to like if you just had a really well built, two liter, or if you were fortunate enough to have a 914.6, which those prices have just gone into the stratosphere. But if you had one of those, they were just well balanced. And um, really good, really good auto cross car. Plus, those 914 just look awesome. It was like a very exclusive design for you Porsche fanatics out there. That ah, and they didn't do them very long, did they? Oh, they made them for quite a few years and what it was, it was actually in, in, in lack of better terms it was a poor man's Porsche. What Porsche was trying to create was, a car like Volkswagen did with the Bug. It was every, everybody's car, you know. Right. Everybody, so Porsche wanted to do the same thing. They wanted to come out, the 911, it was a lot more expensive than a 914. So this was an opportunity for that guy that's looking for a performance car, didn't have a lot of money but always wanted to own a Porsche, here's an entry level Porsche, so. Its funny cause the 914 is kind of like the Beetle of the Porsche and the Karmann Ghia is like the Porsche of the Volkswagen. <laugh> I'm not even going to follow that because that was really weird how you went there, but hey, if it works for you, that's good. That's just how my brain works. It makes sense. I'm there. Okay, as long as it made sense to you. Yep. But what's cool about the, you know, the auto cross right now is Ronin is doing really well. I'm very happy to be in 15th position. We'd like to break into the top ten. Ah, we'd actually like to make the 16 car shootout. That would be ideal. You know, but there's about, I think there's like six to eight pros that are already here. So you got to figure, if the pros, they've been doing this quite awhile, otherwise they wouldn't be called a pro. By pro, you mean, like they do ah, they do these auto cross things all year long? Or you mean like their actual NASCAR type pros? Well some of them, may want to be NASCAR type pros, but ah, you know, let me give you an example, one of the pros that I know, had a great conversation with him a couple of years ago. It was Robbie Unser. That guy won Pike's Peak. And he's out here competing with Speedway and you know, and he's in a vintage Camaro. And he's running, in fact, I think he won the, the 32 car shootout in the dessert or something last year. So he's very competitive. That's the kind of guys you get out here. But you've, you've got some die hard pros from Summit Racing and some of the other, you know, big companies that sponsor these cars. And then you've got a bunch of amateurs out here. And I'm in the amateur class. You know, we're, we're not even in the realm of the pros yet. But ah, it's kind of cool that they do this shoot out. Unfortunately, I think they should do an amateur shoot out and a pro shoot out cause I think I could make the top 16 in the amateurs. <laugh> I think you could. But you, you said Robbie Unser is, is that of the Unser family fame? Correct. His brother is the one that won Indy in the Domino's car, so yeah. Well there you go. So yeah, that's, that's definitely a pro family you're working at. Yeah, and that's one of the things that when you come out to these events, it's cool to see that, but it's also cool for them to you know, give you the opportunity or not, you know, it's not very expensive to come out here and exp, to have fun in, in a close course, completely legal. You can go out there, and you can, you can blow off some steam and you can get some laps in. You can learn some more car control. And you can actually test yourself against the pros because your times are going, everybody's times are posted. So you can sit there and go, oh wow, you know, I'm three seconds off the pase of the fastest pro that's out here. Right, so you could say that you raced a member of the Unser family driving legacy. That's pretty cool to put on your resume. Yeah, and, and if you happen to beat him, wouldn't that even be cooler? Exactly. Not going to happen but it would be awesome. Well, you know what? We're not going to give up. You know, we're here, this our first day at it. We're going to try and climb that ladder. We're going to try and break into the top ten. At least that's a goal that we've set coming into this, that if we can make top ten in the street machine class. Cause the street machine class is the biggest class out here. Let me explain that to you guys. Street machine, anything that qualifies between age all the way to 87. So if you're in a Grand National, if your in an Irock Z, if you're in a Corvette, if your in a '63 Falcon. It all goes into street machine. If you really want to do something competitive, go out and build a hot rod. Because every time I come out to this event, there's only about two or three hot rods that are running competitively out here. And if you have a hot rod, you're at least going to go away with first, second, or third. Yeah. You know what I mean? Right. There you go, if you enter the classes where nobody's in them, you're going to be a winner. That's right. So the hot rod is the, you know, that's the one. Plus think about it, you're going to build a car that's lightweight, lot of horsepower, lot of fun. But if you had a hot rod out here that would be ideal. You're definitely going to place every time. So far, till more people catch on and go, Hey, wait a minute. And then you've got the truck class, which is pretty cool. So the truck class, ah, right now, is currently, I think there's like five trucks in the truck class. So if you look at 32 cars in my class. Five in the truck class. Three in the hot rod class. And then there's like, I think there's like, eight pros that are here. So that kind of just gives you an idea of the situation you're in. So going for that top 16, you know the eight pros are more than likely, unless one breaks or they don't have a good run. More than likely all eight pros are going to make the top 16 shootout. So there's about eight other places for all the amateurs to fall into. Alright. So that would be ideal, but for us, we just make the top ten of the muscle cars. That's our goal. Well, then I would say put your fire pants back on, quit talking to me and go do some more racing. You've got it brother. That's what we're going to do, man. We're getting ready, we're in the house representing right here at Texas Motor Speedway for Goodguys Lone Star Nationals. You guys check it out. Skidmarks Show, it's your favorite one night stand with no walk of shame the day after. Stream us, download us, like us, share us, and give us five star reviews, everywhere you go. 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+This episode of Food Psych is brought to you by my online course Intuitive Eating Fundamentals. If you're ready to leave diet culture behind and reclaim the life it stole from you, learn more and sign up at christyharrison.com/course. That's christyharrison.com/course. Welcome to Food Psych, a podcast about intuitive eating, health at every size and taking down diet culture. I'm your host Christy Harrison and I'm anti-diet registered dietician and certified intuitive eating counselor, offering online courses and programs to help people all over the world make peace with food. Join me here every week as I talk with interesting people from all walks of life about their relationships with food and their bodies. Hey there, welcome to Episode 148 of Food Psych. I'm your host Christy Harrison and today I'm talking with Rebekah Taussig, a disability advocate and writer who has one of my absolute favorite Instagram accounts. We get into why body positivity needs to be a radical and intersectional movement, the connection between body acceptance and disability rights, the many ways in which diet culture has infiltrated disability culture and affects people in disabled bodies and so much more. I can't wait to share our conversation with you in just a moment. It's one of my favorites of recent history. But first I'll answer this week's listener question which is from a listener named Cassidy who writes Hi, Christy, I'm wondering if you can give some practical tips on how to speak truth about health at every size and intuitive eating in situations where only a short or casual response as possible. This week I was walking done the street with my roommate and she made a comment about not wanting to buy more jeans until she loses X pounds. Of course my mind was reeling with long winded responses about health at every size but I was at a loss for words and ended up just chuckling along with her. Any advice for shutting down diet culture in those situations would be greatly appreciated. So thanks Cassidy for that great question and before I answer, just my usual disclaimer, these answers are for informational and educational purposes only and aren't a substitute for individual, medical or mental health advice. I'm sure you know that by now because you probably heard me say it a million times. So first of all I wanna say that the pressure to laugh along with people is very strong in those situations, so you're not alone in feeling at a loss for words. You know, I have a lot of compassion for you, I've been through this myself, I know many people in the space that I work with have also been through this situation, so you're not alone. And is definitely great to have some sort of quick responses prepared ahead of time, so that you can have something to pull out of your pocket when you're feeling kind of awkward and don't know what to say, you can sort of just default to something that you already know. So in this case you could have maybe said something like the body you have now deserves to have cute genes too. That's something that sort of immediately popped to my mind or, you know, if you wanna be sort of cute and cheesy and sweet, you could be like I think you're perfect exactly as you are. I don't think you need to change your body one bit. There is also the option of saying something like, actually I'm not a fan of weight loss and that really opens the door if she wants to ask more about why you feel that way or it could just sort of hang there, you know, awkwardly and then you could change the subject. But at least you've introduced a different point of view, just injecting that little kind of comment of like, actually I don't think weight loss is the greatest thing, I don't think it's a great idea or I'm not a fan, is a good way to just show that there is other ways of thinking about this possible, that the diet culture way is not the only way. And it sounds that this wasn't necessarily a triggering experience, like it wasn't triggering to hear her say that which is great, so you don't need to go into thinking about how to manage triggers, but I do think something that I often recommend for people who wanna help manage triggers could also apply here, which is that if you feel safe, if it feels comfortable to you to talk to her about this stuff, you could try offering a little bit of your own experience as a way of explaining why you don't think weight loss is a good idea. So you could say something like, I've actually been working on loving my body at any size because the pursuit of weight loss has really caused me a lot of pain and I don't wanna do it anymore. 'Cause that really opens the door to talk a little bit more about your experience and why you've made the decision that you've made and that kind of personal revelation is really much less debate inducing than if you launched into a whole oratory about health at every size because you're not debating the points of science and conventional wisdom that people have received from diet culture that often times they really have a hard time letting go of. But you're actually just saying like, well, for me personally here is what happened and I think that kind of thing really does crack a door, crack a window open in people's mind to think, oh wow, this kind of weight loss talk and diet culture can actually harm some people and there is this person's doing it in a different way or trying to do it in a different way because they found it harmless to them. I wonder if it's harming me too? Often times hearing people discuss their own experiences can make you reflect on yours and vice versa. So that might be a nice way to sort of open the door to a larger discussion about this or at least just plant the seed. And in my own life I will say when I encounter someone doing a lot of diet talk or weight talk like this in those little moments, I'll usually say something like, well, I actually have a different philosophy, which if they know I'm a dietician they'll kind of know what I'm talking about or if they don't know I'm a dietician then I'll add that part as well and I'll usually say a sentence or two about the way I practice and how it's different from the conventional weight paradigm that most dieticians practice from. So I think that's a helpful way to open door, just like to talk about your own experience, but I think whatever you say just try to keep it brief and friendly and trust that if the person wants to know more they'll ask and if they don't the conversation will just move on and that's fine too. 'Cause sometime really all you can do is plant a seed. I've said that a lot on the podcast. You know, you're just planting seeds and you're not necessarily gonna have time or space for a big conversation but you're just interjecting something that might be helpful or might be different for someone to ponder and maul over or just forget about until it resurfaces later and they're like, oh, my friend Cassidy said something about this, you know, years down the line or whatever. So sometimes just planting the seed is enough and in many situations you wouldn't necessarily even want to get into a big conversation anyway even if you did have the time and space because sometimes people just aren't ready and sometimes they're gonna debate you and sometimes they're gonna be really upset or triggered or whatever, they're gonna have their own reactions that then you have to deal with. And so it can be a helpful way of setting boundaries for yourself too by just being like I'm just gonna do a little bit, I'm just gonna say a little bit here, I'm not gonna get into something big because I just don't feel ready for that right now, I just don't feel up for that today or whatever. And, you know, if you don't feel ready for it because you're pretty early in your health at every size and intuitive eating journey, that's completely normal and understandable. I think it takes a long time of working out these ideas and thinking about them and debating with them before people feel comfortable fielding all the questions they're probably gonna get if they get into a big discussion about intuitive eating and health at every size. So I think having resources to direct people to if they do ask is helpful and of course this podcast is one. You can always point people to. That's always helpful for us too to get more listeners but helpful for them to start diving into these concepts as well. So Episode 127 is a great one to start with, to introduce the concepts of intuitive eating and health at every size or Episode 31.5 which is called Getting Started With Food Psych and Body Positivity, kind of introduces the whole overarching idea of the podcast and then gives people kind of a roadmap of which episodes to start with and where to go from there. So I help that helps Cassidy. Thank you so much for your question and if you wanna submit your own question for a chance to have it answered on an upcoming episode, go to christyharrison.com/questions and you could ask yours there. That's christyharrison.com/questions. And then if you want a whole library of answers from me to help you master intuitive eating, plus the chance to ask me any question you want and have me answer it quickly in an exclusive monthly Q&A that I do, you can join my online course; Intuitive Eating Fundamentals. The course has 13 modules of content teaching you the principles of intuitive eating plus an exclusive monthly Q&A podcast that I talked about which has 100s of answers to people's questions about intuitive eating. And when you join the course you can ask me your questions and have me answer them in the following month's Q&A. So that's a really easy way to get your questions answered pretty quickly. Participants really love the Q&As and they've told me they help it feel like a really personal touch to the course and another thing that they really love is our private Facebook group which is exclusively for course participants. I'm in there interacting with people everyday, so they feel really supported by me and my wonderful staff, and it's also just an incredible group of people. Your fellow participants in there are so cool and it's so important to have a community when you're going against the grain of diet culture and everyone else in your life is talking about dieting or clean eating or trying to lose weight or whatever it is. So we need communities where we can go for refuge from that stuff and get re-energized to go out and fight diet culture some more because it's a really tough battle. So if you're ready to become an intuitive eater and leave diet culture behind with a great community if people supporting you to do it, learn more and sign up for the course at christyharrison.com/course. That's christyharrison.com/course. And now without any further ado, let's go talk to Rebekah Taussig. So tell me about your relationship with food growing up. Well, I grew up in a family with six kids. I'm the youngest of six kids and there are three girls in our family and some of my earliest memories with food would be sitting around the dinner table, we were always forced to finish everything on our plate. That was kind of one of the rules and I was always the last one to leave. It would take me forever because I hated canned food and ham and all, I, well, I hated actually I really didn't like a lot of the food that we ate growing up but I would always be the last one to leave the table so my dad would read a page of a book to me and then I'd have to take another bite and then he's read another page and I had to take another bite and he did that for like an hour and a half. So I think my earliest association in, in that sense was less about enjoyment or less about hunger. Neither of those things really factored in. It was more kind of like fitting into a family structure and that, that makes sense, there was like six of us, right, and so it was sort of a necessity I think like this is our eating time and that we had a really tight budget so mom made this food for us and my dad paid for it and it was like now it's time to eat. So those were really early memories but I think in terms of like developing my larger ideas about eating and how it connected to my body, developed a little bit later surrounding a lot of my mom's ideas about femininity and what it means to be beautiful and a lot of that was wrapped up in thinness and being really small and being kind of frail. So she, we grew up like hearing all of these stories about how tiny she was in her youth and even as a mother, like a lot of stories about her doctors commenting on how thin she was and she would say all the time, she would say things about how she just doesn't think about food and we would know that she would forget and I, I, I say forget in quotes because I'm not really sure what that means to forget to eat, that doesn't seem like every human. <laugh>. Right, like but she would forget to eat and so there was just a lot of obsession or focus on being really small and thin and having people commenting on her body and her retelling that to us a lot. And to this day I'm not sure that she's even aware that that's a thing that she did or does. It just seem so ingrained and it's like this constant stream of narration. So I'm the youngest and I had two older sisters and so I always felt like they kind of fit in line with her desires and expectations for what her girls would be, which is very tiny and small and kind of frail. And I didn't fit into that and started to notice that right around adolescence, like middle school, I'd never forgot to eat. Like that was never gonna happen to me. <laugh>. I loved, always have loved, loved, loved eating and in adolescence I was growing and so I had kind of this unending appetite and I can remember coming home from school and like I think there was a good month when I would make myself an entire casserole dish of custard and just eat the whole thing and when I got home I was just like that was my treat and, and I was like starving when I got home and I would just completely dive in. And so I started to grow quite a bit and I think that was when I started to grow and notice that my body was just rounder and softer than my sisters'. And then of course right around that time my body, our bodies were attached to male desire, you know, so like you're small, you need to be small and petite and frail to attract male attention and that was very important and valuable in, you know, the subtle ways that you were in those messages both at home but and every other story being told around us. Totally, just diet culture in general reinforcing that everywhere you go. Yes, exactly. So there, you know, there is like no escaping this message and at the same time you hardly notice that you're learning it. So those two things at the same time I was definitely comparing my body to my sisters' bodies and both in theirs, their smallness, their almost like boniness and my, I don't know, I mean it's more than softness because of course at the same time there is my, my disability is a part of that narrative too. I was just gonna say I'm curious how your disability connected with your relationship with your body and if it had any bearing on your relationship with food or that piece too? Yeah, well, as I was thinking about this conversation and, and how I would make sense of that in my mind, it's actually a lot more connected than I would have thought in this insta- so I'm like noticing that my body is rounder and softer than my sisters' but part of that is it's also like asymmetrical. So I'm paralyzed, so I have, I actually have really thin actually scrawny legs but then I have my trunk, my torso is really globe sighted, uh, pretty severe scoliosis and so one half of my body kind of, or my belly protrudes out pretty far on the right and then sinks in on the left and my arms were always a lot stronger than the rest of my body because I use a wheelchair to push myself around. And so it was, it was in part like I'm noticing that parts of my body are really round but it's also the shape of this body is so strange. I start to see it that way. I start to see my body as really strange and even words like grotesque or monstrous. I felt really unsightly and hideous as I started to notice how different my body was from my sisters' bodies, from what I was cutting out, magazine clippings, I don't know why that as the thing to do in middle school- Aargh, yeah. And high school but like somehow I'm like cutting out all of these magazine clippings and making posters. It's almost like really distorted vision boards in the 90s or so, 90s. Totally. Aargh, I completely did that too. It's so ridiculous. I know, I know. What an exercise and pain and suffering. Seriously. So I'm just like comparing myself to all of the images of what I'm seeing as beauty, beautiful and desirable and I'm none of those things. And so for a time, I would go through periods of like really weird restriction, weird restrictions in the sense that I would eat like of ice cream but then like nothing else for dinner and somehow thinking that that was gonna help me attain the shape and size that I was seeing as like the goal. So just kind of making up diets for yourself basically. Yeah, and would do that for a time and then kind of like swing back into eating whenever I wanted and so it was kind of like a cycle. I know that's pretty common for people, so nothing terribly unusual there but, yeah, but the thing is it didn't ever really matter. Like there was nothing that I could do with food that would make my… There was no amount of restriction that would make my body transform into this ideal image because my body was always going to be paralyzed and I was always going to have this strange asymmetrical shape and I was always gonna be in this wheelchair and my feet were always gonna be limp and swollen and, you know, there was just no amount of restriction that could transform me. And so I think at a certain point I really just started to detach myself from… I tried to kind of pretend like I didn't even have a body. So I didn't want to look at myself, I didn't want other people to look at it, I wanted to ignore it entirely. And so I kind of set to work disentangling myself from even having any sort of body because it was just too much shame. Yeah, so it was like a coping skill almost to distance yourself from your body? Yes, yeah, absolutely and of course that doesn't like get rid of the shame. Right. You know, that's not, uh, solving any problem there. In fact it kind of enforces it and protects it. But I definitely kind of sunk into that way of connecting to my body. It was never going to be the object and shape that I felt like it needed to be in order to be acceptable and so what do you… Like there is no other option. I just have to like, I can't acknowledge that it exists. Yeah, so you like pretended that you didn't have a body basically? Pretty much, yeah, in every way. I'm not gonna pay attention to how my body feels when I'm experiencing like even to the extent of enjoying what it feels like to be in a bath. So there is no pleasure that my body can experience and that just became more and more dysfunctional for me as I got older and shaped a lot of my decisions on relationships. How did that affect things with relationships? It's kind of, um, a sad story. I mean when I think about it in retrospect which I guess a lot of us maybe as time goes on you look back and we're like why, why I don't know why I thought that was smart. Till, okay so, so much of the value of having a beautiful body was the currency to be able to attract a male who wants you. I mean like it's, it, that was sort of the set up, right, like- Yeah, that's what we're told. Yes, right, right. So and I need this body so that a guy would want to be with me and think that I'm beautiful. And so I, I actually started dating a guy in high school who was really into my body and it felt like this shock to me and I liked him as a friend, at least at the beginning. We got along okay, but really there was just kind of like a, we used each other in different ways and he kind of used me for my body in a lot of ways and I used him for feeling good about my body in a lot of ways and of course no relationship is just one thing but that was kind of part of our dynamic. And so I married him, very young, when we were 22 and, and there were lots of reasons for that one of which and not a small reason, one of which was I really believed that nobody else would ever want to be with me. It just seemed so like I had somehow been struck by lightning or something. Like this is never going to happen again and if I want to have a partner, which I had really absorbed and believed that that was what you needed to have, you needed to have a, a husband in order to have a family and, and a happy life. And so like the wise 22 year old that I was this was… I wasn't in love with him but, you know, how often does that happen. So we got married and it was immediately a disaster I know, so shocking. <laugh> I know. Really. Yeah. That's unbelievable. <laugh>. Yeah, but one of the things that I think is the most interesting part of how this went down and really when I think back on it really makes me feel just astounded by my body and really kind of an, uh, my body as an ally I guess or as a, as a guide. Pretty shortly after we got married and I, you know, this is like years of detaching from my body and pretending that it didn't exist and, and not wanting anyone to look at it, just years and years of dysfunction. My body started to kind of fall apart on me. So I stopped being able to sleep, I couldn't eat food which was so weird for me. Like I would put food in my mouth and it was like my body wouldn't even let me chew it and swallow it. Like I completely, I couldn't eat anymore, I couldn't drink, I was, like I was just falling part in a lot of ways. My body was basically giving me every red flag to say it's time, pay attention, like stop this. You have to recognize that I'm here, you have to listen to me, I'm telling you, I have been trying to tell you and you've been ignoring me and so now I'm just gonna set myself on fire. <laugh>. So I, I like crumbled and ended up leaving that marriage and basically starting over from that point. Were those responses kind of like psychologically based do you think, once you got out of that marriage? Do you feel like you were able to eat and drink again and your body kind of calm down? I do, yeah. I actually, I moved back home to live with my parents and I remember like the first night I slept in my childhood bed again and actually like slept and it just felt like being able to breathe again and it took a while. It wasn't like I moved back home and then oh, now everything is set right. I mean it was a stretch, it was years of maybe three years of kind of back and forth recovery and none of it being linear, kind of this jagged path toward alignment with myself and an ability to exist in my own body and feel that body and listen to it and value it and pay attention to it. I think one of the biggest insights that I learnt through that stretch and through that transition kind of like pre-divorced, post divorced transition, was recognizing that my body is so much more than an object to be admired by anyone. Hmm, that's huge. Oh my goodness, right, like fundamental shift of everything, because when you think that you're body is just an object like a piece of material to kind of whip into shape in order for it to be dazzling to the site of others, it's so limiting to actually what it means to be alive. Yeah, it's like you're cutting off all other capacities of your body and just sort of- Right. Focusing on the outside. Right, it's like shoving yourself into a one dimensional world, when your body is like let me breathe in the three dimensional planet, please, let me expand and breathe in and out here. And so I think that was one of the, the biggest things I was unlearning and then kind of relearning a new way during that time. What helped you unlearn and relearn those things. Like did you discover, was that the point at which you started to get interested in like disability rights or did you have like therapy that pointed you in that direction or? So both of those things. So I, I did start seeing a therapist who <laugh> just kind of like week after week forced me to acknowledge that I had a body and that it was telling me things. Over and over and over again we would be in the middle of a therapy session and she'd be like, Okay, stop, pay attention to what your body is doing right now. Oh, are your shoulders like crunched all the way up to your ears right now? Why do you think that is and what's your heart doing right now? Your heart is pounding. What is your body telling you with your heart pounding and what happens if you just take some breaths right now? So she was constantly bringing me back to my body in a way I'd never experienced before and oh my goodness, what a gift. So I've been meeting with her for, oh I don't know, at least five years, on and off, which it takes time to build up trust with somebody like that and for her to know enough my patterns of reverting to stepping out of my body and existing in this other way and place. But yes, that was one of the things and like you mentioned another really valuable important thing for me was finding disability studies and finding other voices of people with disabled bodies to merit some of their experiences and for me to start to recognize that a lot of my experiences are not singular but actually belong to a community of experiences was jaw dropping and very empowering to recognize that I'm not really that unique. I mean I, I am and I'm not. Yeah, so you feel like you're not alone probably, right? Yeah. Like, you know, the things that you think are difficult about being in your body or about your life that maybe you just blamed yourself for, you're able to put it into a context and say like oh, maybe it's not just me, maybe this is how the world treats bodies like mine. Exactly, absolutely, very well said. That's exactly it, because I think that the message that I had slowly accumulated over time was that I was a problem. My body, my presence, my existence in any particular space was a big problem and I think there's so much shame wrapped up in that but I'm wrong. Like my existence is wrong and then to start seeing other people being able to point out a really good example of one of those shifts for me was I have some friends that live in apartments on third floors of apartment buildings without any ramps which is really common. And my friends, and this wouldn't be the only time I've experienced this but for this particular example, my friends would have to carry me up those flights of stairs in order to get to their apartments. And the feeling of being carried by someone when you can like you know what a strain your body is on, on them and you can like hear their breathing become labored and you feel like you're on weight in their arms and it's so inconvenient and you're the reason this is happening and the shame of that can just accumulate and bellow and overwhelm. And I remember right around the time that I was first starting to think about disability studies and, and other people's experiences, I apologized to my friends that night, like I'm so sorry that you had to carry me up the stairs and one of my friends just said, you know, it would be a lot nicer if this apartment building had an elevator, you know, <laugh>. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like that would solve it and to think that in that moment I, I had this shift of thinking I guess there are bigger problems at play than just my own body. If structures were different, if spaces were different, then my body would have access and this problem wouldn't exist, this problem of being carried up three flights of stairs wouldn't happen. Right, it wasn't your body that was the burden or the problem, it was that the space wasn't designed to accommodate you. Exactly, yeah. That's huge. I feel like that kind of shift, I mean, I think and we'll talk a little bit about the sort of connection between disability rights and body positivity or body acceptance in that movement. Yeah. But I think for me and a lot of the people I've worked with around body acceptance, I think there is a similar thing where you can feel sort of like I had an eating disorder and for a long time felt so alone with it because I couldn't even get a diagnosis because it wasn't really, didn't fit into one of the categories neatly and I wasn't emaciated. And so therapists were sort of dismissive when I first tried to open up about it to a couple of different therapists and so, you know, it had the effect of making me feel like this was just my secret shame and this weirdness that like nobody could even explain or give a name to and that I didn't deserve help for it. And when I finally was able to find the right therapist he was like tell me about your relationship with food really, you know, the question that I aways ask to start the podcast basically she asked me a version of that question and was so liberating to just be able to like- mm-hmm <affirmative>. Speak about it and to have her say like yeah, that sounds painful, that sounds hard and that was sort of the first step into understanding that actually I wasn't so alone and actually there was help out there for me. mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I started to do research and do because I started my career as a journalist and I eventually started working on a book proposal that sort of morphed into the basis for this podcast but, you know, I was working on this proposal and, and researching emotional eating and eating disorders and disordered eating and stumbled into all this literature about disordered eating and hot it shows up and manifest in different ways and it just, I felt so seen and so understood, like finally there is this sense that I'm not uniquely broken and weird. Hmm, hmm. That I am part of this kind of lineage or group of people that struggles with the same thing and it just was so liberating to finally feel that. So- Oh yeah. And it kind of sounds like that's a similar thing that you found in that moment or probably as you went on in, in disability studies I would imagine. Absolutely, yes, exactly. That lineage, history being a part of something. When you are experiencing something and you think you're the only one experiencing it, it inherently feels like this is just me, like if I could just not feel this way because if I'm the only one feeling this, it must just be me. Why can't I figure it out like everybody else and to realize that there are reasons, logical reasons for you to feel that way. This didn't just come out of you. There is a whole history shaping this for a whole group of people. Yeah, it's incredible, it feels so, so liberating to find that, right and just dissipates the shame so much? Yes, yeah. It's amazing how powerful that is. Just like me too, I mean, I guess that's- Right. Something we're seeing all over the power of me to lately but transformative, completely revolutionary. Absolutely. Yeah, so that actually resonates quite a bit. Yeah, I'm curious to hear how it unfolded from there for you, like with finding because I know you did a PhD in disability studies. So- Yes. At some point that was like you kind of decided to make your career about this. How did that unfold for you? <laugh> uh, in a messy sort of way like most things of my life <laugh>. I was already in, in graduate school, I was actually, I actually started my PhD in 19th century British and America literature, which is still very dear to my heart. But while I was kind of researching Victorian literature, I found disability studies as like a literally critical theory for analyzing literature. And I remember the very first piece of like a chapter of a book that I read that introduced the concept to me of looking at the world though this set of premises around the body and what makes a normal or abnormal body and where do these ides come from and how can we critically analyze that in the world around us. I was like in my apartment, my very first apartment living on my own after my divorce and a friend sent that article to me and I… It literally felt like the physics of the universe were changing around me as I read this piece, like what do you mean? This is a thing like- <laugh>. Are you kidding me <laugh>. And so like from that point on I like really could not get enough of reading this literature, reading these scholars, analyzing, like critically unpacking where we got our concepts of what makes a healthy body and a none healthy body and a normal body and an abnormal body acceptable and unacceptable. And so yeah, I just sort of dove head first into disability studies and then from there I started writing more about my own experiences as they related to that theory because of course all of a sudden I was looking at my whole life through this lens and there was so much for me to think about. Those were the two pieces of my PhD that ame together. It was disability studies and then creative nonfiction as a medium for exploring and sharing those stories in alignment with that theory. That's amazing. Oh yeah, just like reliving finding that it was kind of overwhelming. The impact that that had on me. I bet, yeah, that sounds like it really sort of bought together your, because it sounds like you already had sort of a critical theory lens on things doing a PhD on literature- Yeah. You probably already had that sensibility but then finding this thing that could plug into what was already sort of a personal struggle for you or something that you had struggled to make sense of and suddenly there is this framework to explore. Yeah, exactly. It just felt like all of the pieces clicking in way I didn't know they could click. Yeah, I'm curious too to hear a little bit about, I mean obviously you teach classes on this stuff so we can't- Yeah. You know, talk about all of it but some of the sort of major points I guess about how are ideas of normal versus abnormal bodies have been constructed. Like how did we get to this place that, that we have such a narrow conception of what a quote on quote normal body is. Oh yeah, absolutely. It's interesting actually, one of my high school classes today they were having a seminar discussion on kind of an older chapter called the Construction of Normalcy I think is the title of it, uh, by Lennard Davis. And essentially in, in that piece he goes back and looks at the birth of the word normal as it applies the way that we use it today which didn't really start until, uh, didn't come into our lexicon until I think the 1860s into the english lexicon. Interesting. Which I think most people are pretty shocked to, to hear that it was as late as that and that essentially the concept normal as its attached to sort of averages or our notions of typical was coming to be right around the same time that some of these disciplines like statistics were coming together. So we were thinking about gathering a lot of data on bodies and sort of trying to extract value from that and this is right around the time that we have the concept of eugenics coming together. So we have this new science that's being applied to gathering a lot of data on bodies and then attaching. So we have all of this data on every part of human physicality and then starting to imagine how we could harness that into an ideal so what traits do we want to continue to perpetuate and what traits do we wanna eradicate. And so we kind of had this reshaping of expectations and perimeters for ideal bodies and goals for bodies really took shape around that time and have of course just kind of become more and more exaggerated and we're saturated with it in a such a different way now in terms of the images that surround us and, and all that. But that was sort of the beginning and of course we know that that got, um, pretty horrific pretty quickly in terms of what we did with the concepts of eugenics but- It's so interesting that that was the time when this idea of normal bodies came into our lexicon or normalcy as we construct it today because I've been doing some research on the history of diet culture. I had a- Ooh. A historian of diet culture on the podcast a little while ago, Emily Contois who like did an amazing job of explaining some of the roots of diet culture and where it came from and then it's so interesting because this time-period seems to be so critical in the development of diet culture too just like the development of body ideals altogether. Like there was the concept of the calorie was invented around like in the early 1800s but invented to describe the heat generated by steam engines. It had nothing to do with the human body. Oh wow. And then someone applied it to the human body, I forget his name, but he was like a- an industrial scientist and he wanted to determine who to get the most calories for the least amount of money for the average worker, so that factory owners could pay their workers less and have them be like efficient machines operating on- Oh wow. The food they needed, right yeah, like the body as a machine. Yes, machines is the word. Oh wow. And so, you know, calories were suddenly applied to the body but not in the sense of, you know, reducing calories like we know it now but more to get enough calories to do the work. So it wasn't until later that it became about cutting calories but I think that time was just so pivotal, like the industrial revolution was happening in the US and like all of these sort of ideas about yeah, the body is a machine and like mechanizing everything really affected our relationships with our bodies. I love that image of calories being connected to the steam engine. That's, that what you said. I- It's like think about the power of this like when you have the image of a steam engine in your mind and then you think about calories as being like the thing that's propelling that giant machine forward, that's such an empowering idea and then you think about how it's been reduced and sort of minimized into something so diminutive. Uh, that's interesting. Totally and like also so it's sort of fear inducing. Yeah. It's like people are afraid of them and wanna get rid of them and cut them as opposed to this idea of like that's your power, that's where you're- Yeah. Literally where your power comes from, is this energy. Oh my goodness. I got to say like your Instagram I feel like every other caption I read I'm crying. Like literally. Oh. It's so, they're so moving and so powerful. Oh. And just- Oh, I love it, I love your writing. Thank you for saying that. I, not that I want you to cry but- <laugh>. But just, I don't know. Right. Like when you put something out into the world and you don't really know like every time it means something to anyone else I'm almost shocked like really okay, <laugh> wow. I know what you mean but no, it's I, it's beautiful. Thank you. Yeah, because I know I'm sure like it's so personal to you especially I think doing any sort of personal writing and feeling that people resonate with it, it's like that feeling is so magnified where it's like oh, wow, this is just my life and I'm sharing it and the people get value out of that is, is incredible. Yes, it is. It feels it's a gift connect in that way, so. Yeah, when did you start doing that, when did you start like writing and blogging publicly? A little bit after I found disability studies, my roommate at the time was maybe the first person that said, you know, you have some stories to tell that I think people would care about and, and you're good at writing and you should do that. And so- <laugh>. I listened to her and like I don't know, like a year later, it's not like I started right away but about a year later I started just putting some things out there and it was incredible in so many different ways. I mean part of it was just the practice of taking photographs that included my body like all of my body, you know, not just like cropping out my paralyzed legs but including like all of me. So that practice was really meaningful and then of course any, every time I shared a moment or an experience and that was the first time I really met like a lot of disabled people. I didn't have that community in real life and it's one of the… I know there are a lot of rotten things about the internet but, uh, and what it's done to us as people, but one of the most amazing, magical gifts is being able to be a part of communities of people that you, you wouldn't have been able to join or collaborate around otherwise so that's been a huge gift for me. Yeah, I know it's amazing, the power of the internet to connect us this way. I feel like it's, it's similar kind of double-edged sword but you know. Yeah, but it's not small. I mean it's tremendously powerful kind of like steam engine powerful. So I don't wanna lose that. Right, no, me neither. I think it's, it's so important and that it sounds like for you that representation of like sharing your body in its entirety and probably for the people witnessing it too, like feeling that they were represented or seeing a body that maybe resemble theirs or, you know. Yeah. Or a body that just was different than the sort of narrow view of bodies in our culture. Absolutely, yes, yeah. I think this is true for a lot of people who have social media, uh, body positivity presence on the internet. But I think a lot about like who do I wish I could have seen when I was younger and starting to piece together what my body meant and I think about that smaller version of me a lot when I think about what I wanna put out into the world and I think that's a lot of people do is think about who did that person need and how can I be that now. I know, it is, it's such a powerful guiding force. Yeah. 'Cause it's like we all have that younger version of ourselves that was so lost, you know. Yeah, yeah, oh. I know. But it's beautiful and they feel like very healing too when you're able to give that version of yourself what they needed as- Right. You know, now as an adult and kind of like taking care of your own inner child's needs after the factors is very restorative I think. mm-hmm <affirmative>, I think so too, restorative. And how did you sort of connect with the body positive movement because I, I've read that you, you know, you've written about how disability rights is sort of its own world and then there is the body positive movement which has a lot of similarities, but you were sort of not a part of that community yet until I think you wrote that Meagan Crabbe was helpful in sort of bringing you into the full there. Oh my goodness and I just was listening to the episode that you did with Megan. Is she not like the loveliest human. She is so amazing. Aargh. I know, she's a delight. She just brings so much like consistently just brings so much joy and love and acceptance. It's incredible. Yeah. She found me in my early day- in my earlier days and of course I mean it is interesting, it's amazing how much overlap there is with disability rights and some of the goals that I would have for a disability community and in body positivity in the sense that we're identifying structures that have shaped our perceptions of our bodies and we're reclaiming, we're disassembling that structure together and rewriting a new narrative collaboratively and, and kind of using our voices to make a lot of noise and change that story, change that narrative. And I've shared so many stories and seen other people sharing so many stories with all different sorts of bodies, disabled or not, where we start to first learn what our bodies, we're told what our bodies are supposed to be and what they're not and how they fall short, where we're sort of piecing together what we need to be and starting to realize that we fall short of that and then similarities in the stories of unlearning that, of beginning to see something different and more helpful and invigorating and empowering. So I've just been surprised and delighted by the overlaps in those stories about bodies. And of course there is imitations to that. They're not, there are ways in which disability rights sort of expand into other categories that don't seem to really be fulfilled by body positivity in the same way but there is a lot of ways in which the roots seem similar to me and, and I've been really… I think Megan is the one that made me feel like I was allowed to associate with that movement, you know, like I kind of saw similarities myself every once in a while maybe but felt like I don't wanna pretend like I belong somewhere that I don't and Megan has made me feel like my voice is welcome and that's a gift. That's one of her many gifts that she has given lots of people. Right, that's incredible and I think it's, it's really, I mean to me bod positivity and I know Megan has said this too that, you know, it has to be a radical, all inclusive thing. It can't just be body positivity for some bodies. Yes. And I think that's where it has to encompass disability, it has to encompass ethnicity and race and gender and all of the stuff, right, age, you know- mm-hmm <affirmative>. Sexual orientation, like to me it's got to be to really a body positivity that means something and that changes the world. It has to include all of those facets of how we are in our bodies because all of that stuff intersects in so many of us. Like we're not just moving through the world with one identity. S0- Right. I think we need to consider all of these different ways the body show up and make space for that. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that it's interesting I feel like in this conversation especially when we were first taking about my early associations with food and the shape and size of my body because compared to my bony sisters or whatever. I think that's an interesting way for me to experience some of that intersectionality in terms of there are just a lot of different identities overlapping in that moment and that's just one tiny way in which that all of us experience that sort of overlapping of different identities and ways of being in our body and what it means for us to be in our body and how it makes sense of that and reclaim that. So I agree <laugh>. <laugh> I'm curious too actually to hear how that has shifted for you the sense of back in the day feeling like you had to shrink your body to fit the mold and then, you know, at a certain point you sort of gave that up and felt like you disassociated form your body but how did it unfold after that? How did you start to understand and accept your body size, your relationship with food, in the context of everything else about your body? Yeah, I think that none of that is simple. I mean none of it was ever and then I figured it out. I think I'm still figuring it out but I think one of the biggest shifts and I'm kind of, this is kind of the first time I'm thinking about this so I apologize if this is really clunky. I'm kind of like thinking about this out loud for the first time but I think as I started to be more comfortable in my own body, I started to have more genuine connections with people, more genuine relationships and I feel like so much of that for me I'm like I have all of these memories of siting with my friends in graduate school like at a restaurant for three hours and just like eating together and something being like really joyous about that process and I don't know if one of the gifts of transitioning of coming back to my body and my relationship was still in that process is, is allowing myself to feel, um, joy in eating with people and the richness of, of living that part of life together and, and having that, the sort of a ritual closeness and intimacy and joy and, and relationship and not having be as attached to a size in one way or the other. I, I don't know, I think that's maybe one thing. I think that there is a lot of things to think about in that process, in that journey of thinking about food. But I think that that was one thing that I ex- uh, I started to experience for almost for the first time it felt like. Hmm, that's beautiful and I mean that really makes me think of I have this metaphor that, you know, I've been talking about on the podcast or a while of the life that you f- like diet culture is a life- mm-hmm <affirmative>. That steals your life, you know, because it steals your attention, your energy, all of your mental space kind of goes into manipulating food in your body and thinking about that and not being present with the people you're eating with or even feeling allowed to go out to eat because you're worried about what's on the menu or you're, you know, sitting at home- Yeah. Eating food you made and then like meeting up with people later or whatever. It's like it cartels your life in those really mundane sort of everyday ways but where there is so much everyday magic and where so much connection happens is over food and being- mm-hmm <affirmative>. Just free around food and being able to be spontaneous and go out with people and just live your life. Yeah, yeah. There is just so much joy in that and richness I think like the opposite just the alternative is starved and literal in metaphorical ways. Totally, yeah, that's really interesting, like the idea of richness versus being starved or sort of having this austere, deprived existence which is what dieting and restricting yourself off food does to people. Yeah, I'd never thought of that before though, so thank you for- Hmm. Prompting me to reflect on that and how that was part of it. Oh, that's great. I'm so glad. Yeah, it's beautiful to have moments like that. Yeah. I'm also curious to know because I know a number of people with disabilities who've had diets pushed on them to ostensibly manage or help cure quote on quote certain aspects of their <laugh> you know, dise- Yes. Disease and stuff, so it's like and of course I mean a number of clients that I've worked with have tome on these diets being like I started this diet to try to manage this condition and I feel worse, but almost like needing permission to say hey, I think the diet is not helping you and you can get off it and here is, you know, we could heal your relationship with food and you don't have to do this anymore, but I think diet culture has taken this really underground form in the new millennium. It's shape shifted because now since the late 90s, early 2000s diets are not cool anymore. Everybody is like diets don't work, I don't do diets, you know, this isn't diet it's a lifestyle change. And so these sort of supposedly health promoting behaviors that are actually more about manipulating the body to fit into a cultural ideal but go under the guides of health promotion are getting disseminated more and more and I think, you know, it's unfortunately something I've seen in, in people with disabilities where diet culture is being sold as a way to manage conditions and stuff like that. So curious if you've had any experience with that, you know, personally or through community? <laugh>. Yeah my favorite example of that is when I was online dating and one of the guys that I met… Online dating with a disability is just its own whole- Oh my God. Podcast and so- <laugh>. It's so amazing but one of the guys that I started talking to online kind of made it his mission to figure out like how to cure me, which as hilarious because it's like you don't know a single thing about my body, right? Like you have no idea why I'm in this wheelchair but you're gonna figure out the diet plan for me. Aargh. Um, so he yeah, he was like, what did he say? He said something like, you know, I used to have really bad asthma and then I, I started eating all of these like he gave me a list of certain foods and he was almost like, you know, I really think that we could heal your body with food. Aargh. And maybe some exercises too but I could draw you some sketches of, of what you need to do for that. <laugh>. And I think, I know, it was just so, so amazing. I was like this is too perfect you're the funniest ever. Yeah. I, I will go on to tell this story for years to come and I have. <laugh>. Um, but I think that one of the things that's really interesting to me about that in terms of thinking about, I don't know, what the goals are for prescribing certain diets for people and a lot of times the ideas specifically with disabled people is this idea of cure and the fact that like cure is obviously your goal. Like I don't have to ask you if you want this, it's already implied. It's so deeply accepted in our communities that cure is better than not cure. Like restoring your body to this typical standard is obviously what you want. So I'm not even ask you do you wanna be cured, I'm just gonna tell you I've got the thing that will help cure you. And so I think that it- it's kind of an interesting point of comparison to think about how deeply embedded it is in that culture of like what kind of body you must want, regardless of what that might ask of you, what you might have to sacrifice in order to attain that and what harm might be inflicted in you in the process of getting to that point. So I, I don't even remember what I said back to him. <laugh>. I think I maybe LOL, I don't know <laugh> where we did not continue to talk. That was a short lived back and forth. That sounds like very good self-care on your part. <laugh>. Just to be like shut it down like <laugh> like- Oh. How presumptuous like. Yeah, a lot of laughs. <laugh> Oh yeah. I mean it's a great story but also it's so telling, you know, about how- Yeah. People impose this assumption on your, on your body. Yes, yes. It's not, it's not a question, it's a total default and I think that the idea that I wouldn't want that or that somebody wouldn't want that is jarring, it's shocking and, and sometimes even angering to people. Yeah, I see some parallels there too with like the body acceptance movement and health at every size is the- Yeah. Philosophy I practice as a health professional and it's like working on heaping people promote health in whatever ways are available to them, whatever ways they ant to and, and would like to do without focusing on weight loss, without making that the goal and telling people that especially fellow health professionals often that like this is the way that I practice and I don't do weight loss and you're referring someone to me for weight loss but unfortunately I can't do that, I can't provide that service, you know. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Quote on quote service AKA disservice to someone. Yeah, <laugh> yeah, exactly. Like is really jarring to people and, and angering sometimes too. Yeah. I think that, you know, gotten a lot of pushback and of course a lot of curiosity and openness too which is great but I think there is a definite subset of internet trolls that's devoted to tearing down the health at every size framework and really any sort of like body acceptance or rights of any marginalized people, period. Yeah. I'm fascinated by that. It's baffling to me but I, I definitely see it all over the place. And I guess there is something threatening I'd imagine that that anger comes from… Its disruptive. It is dis- it's a disruptive way of being in the world and thinking about the world but yeah anger <laugh>. mm-hmm <affirmative>, yeah do you get a lot on your posts and stuff, do you get pushback or? You know, my, I have just been really moved by the people who participate in my Instagram. A lot of just open and generous people. I actually, when I'm thinking of anger, the most recent experience I'm thinking of is in my classes, when we try to talk through the idea that are there times when we wouldn't necessarily wanna pursue cures or is there potential harm to focusing on cure over accommodation. That can be really hard for some people to even entertain. So yeah, I've seen people get really upset about just even trying that idea out and seeing what we can do with it. But no, the people on my Instagram are just like the loveliest, warmest <laugh> most open people. So I've kind of enamored with them. That's awesome. That's, I eman yeah, I think I feel the same way about my Instagram community too. I feel like there is almost no trolls in that space which is amazing. I feel like- How did we luck out? I know. I know that there are other spaces that have a lot of hostility so- mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I think yeah, there are so many nuances to that too. I sometimes think about the privilege that I have as a thinner body person. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Speaking about this stuff because I know some of my larger bodied colleagues who are saying the same stuff and, you know, promoting the same ideas get this terrible pushback about you're promoting obesity and you're killing people. Hmm. Blah, blah, blah which is just totally unfounded and the worst but- That's an excellent point that I had not really thought of is what kinds of ways are. It's like my particular disability and manifestation of that, giving me access to or helping, like participating in the types of comments that are made and, and who is interested in writing or participating. That's a good point. That's a great point. Yeah, like somehow the way that you're showing up, the way that I'm showing up isn't provoking even though we might be saying the same kind of radical things- Yeah. It's not provoking the same ire although it's interesting that in your classes those ideas- <laugh>. You know we're still bringing that up in people. That's true. And I think when you sort of look deeply into, into the stats quo and question it, it does bring out people's hackles.Mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah, and they might not even understand what that feeling is and then that's kind of instinctual I think in a lot of ways. I mean worth paying attention to, that's my favorite thing to do. Yeah. Like, huh, let's investigate that emotion, where does that come from, what does that mean? mm-hmm <affirmative> such a useful response. Yeah, yeah. How did it affect you to feel that from your students to experience people's angers at these ideas? Oh my goodness Christy, it was this last semester I'd never experienced anything like that before, uh, just in the closeness, right, like we're not only in the same physical space together but five days a week and it was really shocking to me. It's still something that I'm processing and making sense of especially initially when I first started experiencing some of that. It really affected the way that I felt going out in the world every day. It was, it was sort of like, oh, I didn't realize this is how people look at bodies like mine. I mean I, did I knew it in the back of my mind but like I certainly had specific phrases stuck in my head. And so that was really, that's been really hard for me to process. I, but I also there is the part of me that also instills the purpose of this kind of teaching and, and looking at these together. On the other hand if people had, if everybody in the class had been like, yeah, this makes sense, we're good, done, makes sense, let's, let's practice these things then it would be like oh, well, maybe they already get this. This isn't something that needs to be taught or looked at. And I think one of the, one of the reflections that I'm puling out of the last semester and hoping to take with me is just the importance of looking at this together and thinking about it criticality and, and writing like wanting to write more and so that there are more pieces and words out in the world that makes sense of disability experiences and different ways to look at bodies and… But it's, uh, it's been rough. There is a lot of rough days in there. Yeah, I bet. Yeah, exciting too. I mean it's just all, it was all the thing, all the feelings. All <laugh> Hmm. Like week after week. Yeah, that's probably it's like this mix of rewarding, knowing that you're helping change people's points of view but also there is like so much pain in that and having to- Yes. Certainly be so aware of how certain people might view your body and having those specific phrases I can imagine must be very triggering. Yeah, yeah, and I, I wasn't prepared for it. I didn't, I had taught disability studies before but not as a whole focus for semester so I, I just wasn't prepared for, for that. And I don't know like at first I was like I don't know that I wanna do this again because I don't know that I am capable of putting myself in that position again, but I'm at least trying it one more time. <laugh> We'll see, we're gonna do it at least one more time and see how it goes once I've got my arm around and, and step into it with a little bit more perspective and preparation. Yeah, now you've been through it once and you know- Yeah. Some of the stuff to expect so it's- Yeah, yeah, here we go. Hopefully can create some boundaries and like, yeah. Yeah. Energetic shields for yourself. Yes, yes, that's, we'll, we'll see. I'll keep you posted. Yeah, I'll be curious. <laugh>. Curious to hear more. I mean it's probably interesting to teach high schoolkids versus college kids as we were talking before we started recording about how you taught college classes about the stuff before but I feel like an adult brain and also just people who are there by choice and sign up for a class like this versus high school students might not be there by as much choice <laugh>, you know, sort of thrown into it so- Yeah, I think that was the big part. I think that's a big part of it and also I think one thing I would like to put more work into is emphasizing the point that we all have bodies and these ideas are not like disability specific, they're body specific, right, and we all have bodies and so thinking about some of these questions from that perspective I think is one of my goals for next time around is emphasizing the universality of some of these questions and trying to think specifically about how that might apply to their own experiences in, in one way or another might be part of it so. Yeah, like building empathy. Yeah, I think that's a big part of it. So we will see. Uh, well, that's exciting. I'm, I'm curious to hear how it unfolds. Yes, me too. <laugh>. Yeah, and meanwhile as I continue to follow you on Instagram and hopefully see your book come out sometime soon too. Oh yeah. You're really amazing. Yes, fingers crossed. Well, it was so great to talk to you Rebecca. I'm really, really glad. Oh, I've loved this. Oh, this was delightful. Thank you so much for inviting me to participate in the conversations you're having on this podcast. It was to- a complete joy to process some of these with you. Oh, I'm so glad. It was a complete joy to witness it and be a part of it. So and can you tell us where people can find you online and learn more about your work? Yeah, so the Instagram account @sitting_pretty is where I post most often but the hub for my work and this upcoming podcast that I'm hoping to put together this year. Hmm. And kind of where my pieces are appearing would be on my website which is www.rebeccataussig.com. Those are the two main places where people can keep track of the things that I'm doing. Awesome and we'll put links to that in the show notes for this episode too so people can find you and- Perfect. Follow you and I love your Instagram so much so everybody should go follow. Oh, thank you. Thank you. That means a lot. So that's a wrap on our show for today. Thank you so much to Rebecca Taussig again for joining us on this episode and thanks to you for listening as always. If you've gotten something out of this podcast, please help us reach more people who need to hear the anti-diet message because who doesn't, right, by sharing this episode on Apple podcast or iTunes or your favorite podcast platform. Sharing on one of the Apple platforms helps bring us up in the podcast ranking so that more people discover us and so that we can continue to drown out those pro-diet messages and keep rising up in the health category. You can also leave us a nice rating and review in Apple podcast or your podcast provider of choice which is another way to help new listeners discover us and is always greatly appreciated. If you're looking for some practical tips to get started on your own anti-diet journey, grab my free audio guide Seven Simple Strategies for Finding Peace and Freedom with Food. It's like a bonus podcast episode with some really practical wisdom and you can get it at christyharrison.com/strategies. That's christyharrison.com/strategies. To get full show notes from this episode including all the resources we mentioned plus a full transcript, head over to christyharrison.com/148. That's christyharrison.com/148. And to get the transcript just scroll down to the bottom of the page and enter your email address where it says get the transcript. Food Psych is edited and engineered by Podcast Fast Track and I'm maternally grateful to our editor Mike Leland for being so incredible to work with over the past few years. Also a big thanks to our community manager and content development associate Ashley <unk:Saria> our administrative assistant, Sarah Thompson and our transcript assistant Megan <unk:Sai_Chi> for helping me out with all the moving parts that go into producing this show every week. It's a lot. Our album art was photographed by Abbey Moore photography and designed by Meredith Noble and the music you're hearing behind me is by a band called Awol and the track is called Food used under the Creative Common License. Thanks again for listening and until next time, stay safe. 

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+Hi everyone, Happy Halloween! Hi, we have a big, exciting announcement for you. That's right, we're here at the Microsoft Theater about to go do, uh, our huge live show. For 7,000 people. No big deal. But first we wanted to tell you guys that we are announcing our 2019 Winter Tour. Yeah, we're gonna go to a bunch of cities we've never been to before. That's right, what's up, Hawaii? Yeah. Among other places. That's the only one we can think of. <laugh> Um, presale goes on, uh, duh, uh, November 5th. That's right and first, uh, tickets presale go to the Fan Cult, so if you're not a member, go to myfavoritemurder.com, join the fan club, there's a bunch of other bounces and, uh… And keep your eyes peeled because we want to see you in 2019. Yeah, we'll see you then! Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. <inaudible> <unk:Intro_music> My favorite murder. <unk:audience_applauding> <unk:applause_continues> <laugh> What's up, Los Angeles? What's up, Los Angeles? <unk:audience_applauding,_screaming> Wow, we're Lady Gaga. <unk:audience_laughs> Spooky Halloween. Spooky Halloween. <unk:audience_applauding> Oh, my God, my heart is just racing. It's just racing. Listen to that shit. Wow, there's a- there's a lot of you. Cheeses. <unk:audience_cheering> Yeah. Thanks you for showing up. Thanks for coming on Halloween. Yeah, on Halloween of all nights. I feel like that means most of you guys aren't parents of small children. <unk:cheering> Yeah. Us too. Thank you, thank you for doing that. Good of you. So, um… <unk:cherring> We should explain our costumes. Probably- Yes. -be a good idea. It's not what you're- what you were expecting, maybe. Us either. <laugh> What did you say? It's not what they were expecting. Oh, I swear to God I just heard footsteps over here. I'm not joking and a icy cold hand touched my shoulder and said, Do you want a pretzel? <laugh> I was like, No, thank you. Was the answer… Yeah. So. As you know, George and I met at a Halloween party. That's right. <laugh> Four years ago. Something like that. Hosted by our friend, Matt McCartney who's here tonight. Matt McCartney's in the house tonight. He loves wrestling. Of the We Watch Wrestling Podcast. Yes, that's right. And this is, essentially, what we were dressed as and there were 7,000 people there. That's so- it was such a crazy party, you guys. You guys. Uh, you were a nurse. Nurse. I was… My mic is insanely loud. I was the Ebola nurse, ladies and gentlemen. That's right. You remember a time when a Ebola was the scariest thing happening in this country. Remember? Oh, just a wonderful, wonderful time. What I wouldn't give for Ebola. Ugh. Trade it in for today's- Bullshit. Yes. Just a tiny sip of Ebola to make everything else go away. Am I right? But mostly I picked this outfit because, or this costume, because, um, they used to sell scrubs at CVS. So, it was, like, the easiest costume in the world and also it's not, uh, it's not a costume, really, it's just, kind of, like, wearing very light cotton sweats to a party. Which is my thing. But with pockets. But with pockets. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And rubber gloves. I put those in there, they didn't come with it. Those are my personal ones. And, then, of course, Georgia. Well, listen, okay. Look, I was dressed as Glenn Danzig. Thank you, from the band Misfits, and Vince was dressed, we were couples costume, he was dressed as Henry Rollins. It was this adorable cough, you know, whatever. It was a lot more punk rock because I wasn't in front of 7,000 people and then when I went backstage I was like I don't wanna look like Squiggy all night. So I have my bangs… Listen we did it the My Favorite Murder way, which is kinda half-assed. But we're like, You'll like it. You'll like it fine. Who cares? Who cares? I feel like all of Halloween is just this weird day of sweaty scrambles and then you, like, slowly begin to resent your friends for some reason. You're just like, These fuckin' assholes, making me do this. Yeah, I wanna stay home and eat candy like I do every night. But, no. They make me go stand at a party. So, if you don't know the rest of the story is, I showed up to this party alone which is simply I- I don't know how I did it, I don't know why I did it, really. I think someone… Usually someone has to say to Karen, If you don't come, I will not be friends with you anymore. Oh, it was Matt McCarthy. That's right. It was his party. That's right. It was his party and he threatened my life, so I was like, Fine, you matter to me. Um, so I showed up and then almost immediately told a story about watching a car mow down 30 people. Uh, which really did happen to me, but I was kinda telling the story is a brag. Um, and to get, like, pity and attention. It was a weird move for the beginning of a party. Very sober move. Um, and I watched the three people I was talking to who had just smoked a hint of pot. All their faces dropped and turned gray and I was like, Oh no, I've done it again. And then, from behind them… But like this. Like this, this little hand. Tell me everything. 'Cause all I want to talk about at parties is horrible, terrible, things. And, so, I got so excited that this person was doing that. And she saved my life. And then we started a podcast. Yeah. Thank you. What we're saying is, go to parties. Go to parties. And tell terrible, terrible stories when you're there. Go to parties, be nauseating, see what happens. Anything can happen. Anything can happen. Um, should we… We have some photos of ourselves when we dressed up as kids for Halloween. We- I have to say this, we- we've never played to 7 -fucking-thousand people before. <laugh> <unk:cherring> You know who else hasn't? Any podcast, ever. This is the largest live podcast ever. Yeah. What the fuck? It's on. It's on. It's bananas. And now, you know, the people from Things My Dad Fucked are gonna be like, I have to do that too. Go ahead. So, we were like, What if, uh… 'Cause we actually came here to see, I'm sure you seen the commercials, for the, uh, Chinese dance troupe Shen Yun. We came here to see them. To see that show. We sat right over there. We were over there. And we- we were, like, this is gonna be beautiful and culturally interesting, you know? And it was a cult. It was a cult. Literally. A cult. We, like, bailed at intermission and people tried to grab us and pull us back in. We went to the Yard House. Where we- that's our cult. Never, never been happier to be in the mother fuckin' Yard House. I was, like, Yay, frat boys. Oh, my God, what a miracle. But as we were sitting there, we knew the show was booked, it was- but it was a really long time ago and I, the whole time, just sitting there going, How the fuck are we gonna do this? We don't- we don't have a dance troupe. We don't have a- we don't have a cult. But, actually, we do. Turns out… That's exactly right. So… So, we've just done a lot of pre-production and we thought we'd show you some pictures to, kind of, get through the top half of the show. Dazzle you, Shen Yun-style. So, what it- these are, I think it's mine first. I think yours is first. We're just gonna go and sh- we're gonna show you our favorite Halloween costumes of life. Can we see the first one? Awww! Haha, what? Karen! No. Drinkin' in- drink her in. That's so cute. Baby Karen. That looks itchy. It is. It is. It was the world's worst- this is proof that my parents hated my fucking guts, right there. It was a torture device for a five year old because that netting… So, is my cousin Lisa's costume from The Nutcracker from eight years previous. And, underneath the intensely, uh, barbed wire-ish, brown netting on the outside, I'm wearing brown tights and a brown leotard, which, as we all know, when you're the kind of kid that has to pee every 10 minutes, is probably the worst outfit you could wear. But, we went to… Now I'm having recovered memories. We went to… I think I liked the hat part, though, that was not as comforting. Um, um you can tell by my smile that I'm having a wonderful time. I've always been very photogenic. Um, after this we went to a 4H Halloween party, because I'm from a farm, remember? That's right. 4H, it's, uh, it's like a group for kids that are- walk around in fields all day long and don't have friends. So, we went to this 4H party and it was in a big barn. I mean, for five year old me. When we walked in it was like Halloween Wonderland. They had decorated it and there was, like, hay bales and there was candy stacked all over the place. I was just like, Where have we come to? So, they had a Guess How Many Jelly Beans Are in the Jar contest and when I walked up the girl, some 15 year old that was taking all the guesses, wrote my name down then goes, How many Jelly beans do you think are in the jar. And I go, 15. And, she goes, 500, okay? And writes that down and then I fuckin' won. Yeah. <unk:cheering> She knew. She knew what I needed. She was like, That girl looks really uncomfortable. I'm gonna make her night. Awww. I had the jar like this, I road home in the car, just… Hell, yeah! I don't even like jelly beans, but I won. And she still has it today. It's gonna be a prize at the end of the night. Moldy jelly beans. All right, let's see yours. Let's see mine. Uh, that's not it. Okay. And… Wow. <laugh> / There she is. Are you Baked Alaska? No, I'm like a 1950s person. But, look at my shoes and the carpet. Oh. Have you seen dirty shoes? Oh, you had been gardening that day. <laugh> Yeah. Is that what it was? That's just what my life was like. Just the dirtiest shoes, always. Disgusting. Ugh. That's really good. That's it. Was it, um, a Grease? Were you trying to do Grease? Sure, we were just really into, like… We were… Oh, you know what we were into at the time? Uh, La Bamba. <laugh>. We had just seen that movie and I- and I just wanted to be like a Greaser-style, soch, and, but, so I dressed like this, but I refused to get on a plane, because I thought it was gonna crash and die, like in the movie La Bamba. You had flight that night? What? Yeah. So that's that. She looks stocked. I mean, she's probably so sugar high at that moment. Of all the movies you told me, you're like, You know what my favorite movie is as a kid? Fuckin' La Bamba, it's like, there's so much story and it really happened and it's so sad, but also a huge victory in a lot of ways. Yeah, that's that. Oh, I have a photo to show you. I dressed someone up today. Oh. Someone on our last weekend in Bay Area, someone makes costumes for cats. Uh, oh. Her name is Mattie at Miss Mattie Makes at- at C, and she gave me something for Elvis. So I put it on him and he hates my guts now. But I had to do it for you. Here we go. Let's see. Oh, that's, yeah. <laugh> It's a Cookie Monster Hat. This is so degrading. It's not right. They don't- pets don't like this. They don't like it. He loved it. He loves it. Look at the look on his face and… That's just his face. He's about to take out one of your cornea. That's just his face. Look at how happy he looks. His ears are flat against his head. I know. Vince- when I brought him out, Vince was like, I thought they were ear holes. And I'm like, There are. His ears are just all the way… You couldn't see his ears any… <laugh> Look at him, my God. He does look exactly like the Cookie Monster, though. Doesn't he? He really does. It's uncanny. Truly. Oh, it made me so happy. <laugh> He took the hit for you. He did. Every time people are like, Look, my little dog is an elephant. It's like, Your dog pissed off right now. Don't be so mystified when he shits on your new duvet next week. It's A + B. Right? And we have one more photo of a child in a Halloween costume, Okay. It's Stephen. That's right. <unk:cheering> <laugh> Let's have him explain it to us. Oh, yes. Stephen. It's Stephen! Stephen. There he is! Oh, yeah. Oh no. Get out here. Straight… <unk:cheering> Yay. Say, Hi. Um, I'm free. This is who I'm suppose to be. This is who he was. There we go. It really is him. Take this off so they can- we can prove it that we didn't murder you. There's Stephen. <unk:cheering> Yay. That's you. That's me. Oh, yeah. You're so cute. And that's my sister, she's dressed as a witch. Awww! Oh, that's what it is. <laugh> Stephen, do you have any memories from that day? Uh, I feel like I got really sweaty inside that costume. Yeah. How you doin' right now inside that costume? I'm a little- I'm a little parched in here. It's- but, you know, it's cozy. It's like pajamas. And show them what it has. Oh, it has pockets! Pockets! Pockets! All right, thanks Stephen. Good job. Thanks, Stephen. Stephen! We're gonna have him cut that whole part out, probably. Stephen. Oh, this is My Favorite Murder the Podcast. Yes. The con… Yes, thank you. This is Karen Kilgariff. This is Georgia Hardstark. Yes. Thank you so much. Thank you. Um, get that out of here. Yeah. <laugh> Just kidding. Please. Please. It's just- it's just weird. You're being so good. We were really prepared for, like, insane, drunkin' screaming, like, I'm a pirate, talk to me. Yeah, you can do it now if you want to. Yeah. What now? Get it out, we can't understand a word you say anyway when you scream. I think that's a thing that people don't understand when they scream at us from the audience. We can't hear what- it sounds like you're yelling about leaves and trees… It's like, Oh, there's an arborist here. That's rad. It's really strange, but thanks for being here. We're stoked. Oh, we have a surprise rug from the Microsoft Theater. Yeah, they made us a rug. They made us a rug. Look at this! Look at it. Can you see it. You're too flat. Don't stand up. Look at it. It says, Look and listen. It's gorgeous. There's all decorations on the side. Oh, sweet shot, is there a drone in here? How are they getting that shot? Haha. Oh, that's my doggie. It's your dog and it's my cat. Oh, she's- she's gonna be livid. Look at it. I love that there's a telephone. Call you dad, you're in a cult. Got it. It's like someone listens. It's like they pay attention to it. I know, we're not used to it. Usually we get to a venue and the, like, grizzled, old, like, people who work there are like, What's a podcast? And then they're like, It's two women? And then they're like, There are so many women the audience. And we're like, Absolutely. Yep. And then, afterwards, when they hear everyone screaming and they know that we sold out they're like, You guys should come back! We love podcasts now. We're changing everyone's mind, one- one, long, talking show at a time. <laugh> It's just two women talking? Can- why? Um, should we sit down? Is it time? Look at these… These are fucking high class chairs. I mean, truly, never in the history of our live shows. Also, this is like a backgammon table. It's a little backgammon-y. That's- there's… So classy. We can play checkers or chess, I guess. While we talk we could do so many things. Is that yours? That shouldn't go in there. Oh, this is a true crime comedy podcast, everyone, just so you know. They know. They know. Anyone who is, you know, invited along because they had nothing to do on Halloween. Yeah, I bet there's a lot of drag alongs tonight, probably. They were promised dinner. Welcome. Yes. My Mom's boyfriend for example. He's been with us since the beginning. Yeah, he has. He's a- he's a total MFM Head. We always like to warn people, though, because- and staff, or, you know, partners, whoever, people that might not, um, listen to the podcast so they don't know what's happening or why. And, so, we just like to explain at the top that this is, uh, true crime combined with comedy, which some people actually take offense to. They think that's inappropriate, that you shouldn't talk about those two things together. Um, and we, do, and, uh, and want to, uh, because that's how we talk and that's actually how most people talk about horrible things. Like, as equally as horrible as it is wonderful and you get to talk about however you fucking want, so, if you're offended you can get the fuck out. <unk:cheering> Thanks. Um, doesn't really apply to this show where people have really busted their ass to come to the Micro- pay for parking. Pay for parking. Thanks to all you parkers out there. Ugh, all the parkers. Thank you. Working you ass off just for us. Every- parking everywhere. It's just, oy vey! I mean… Does anybody here come to LA Live just to chill out and, like… Season pass holder. Just to see the lights at night. I just love to get a bite at the Yard House, it's my favorite. See my friends at the Yard House. mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then go up to Lucky Strike, bowl a few. Just, fucking, bowl with some superstars of LA and, I don't know, I can be myself at LA Live. Yeah. It's like- it's like my level of parking payment is, like, where I like it. Yeah. I know my car is safe. You know, sometimes, like, Oh, yeah, you put your credit card in and pay two dollars for parking. I want to pay $98 for parking. That's what I- it's how I feel most myself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you go first or do I go first? I think you do. Is that right, Stephen? Stephen, you're gonna have to… I went first… Stephen's backstage stripped naked out of that Dinosaur costume. You know… Working through our shit. I have to say too that Vince, my husband/our tour manager/kind of Karen's husband too at this point. Little bit. I get a touch of it. It's pretty nice. Um… Looking into it. He's been hiding his costume from me all week. Oh. So he said that… He brought us out and then he was like, I'm gonna go backstage and get my costume. He gave me like a warning, Don't go and look in my closet. Don't open packages that aren't yours. So either he's hiding a body… Yeah. And, or, he's got a costume going on that I don't know what it is yet. Do- is he gonna come out, like, when he feels like it yet? Yeah, he'll come out when he, you know, like he normally does, but be dressed as God knows what. Okay. A little nervous. Okay. Or scared. Well, I think it's perfect for Halloween. Yeah. Okay. Is anyone trick or treating in this audience tonight? Just gonna walk around and beg for candy? Somebody was passing out candy? They set it up so that you can. No, just some ladies. Some lady. Some lady's handing out candy? Don't fucking eat that candy. Don't eat the candy. What? How many times do we have to tell you people? Oh, a lady's giving candy? Are her eyes really close together? Does she have full eyebrows? What are you… Don't do that. This isn't a safe place. This is not a safe spaces. There's no safe spaces. Don't you let your guard down, just because you're amongst friends. Um… You know what we'll do? You can start that your first picture we'll see who went first. Right. That's right. That's fun. Okay. All right, so, uh, we decided to do interesting stories that are just about weird… It's Halloween. Listen, look. We're doing… We didn't want to be restricted to this city, we wanted to develop out into the theme of what does Halloween mean to you? And, to me, it means the Satanic Panic. Yes. Yes it does. And, specifically, the daycare sex abuse mass panic of the McMartin trial. Fuck! That's what you're doing? Yeah. Oh, shit, girl. Shit, girl. That's what I'm doing. Y'all ready for this? Uh, the majority of this, nay, all of this, I got from a great article, uh, from the website Vox by a woman Aja Ramano, so fuckin' great writing. I'm gonna just gonna screw it completely up right now with my… Aja! Aja! All right, everyone remembers the Reagan era right, Karen? mm-hmm <affirmative>. It was, yeah. We're living it. A lot of red dresses belted at the- right at the waist. Like, if you had a boxy waist you were fucked. Truly. Shoulder pads everywhere. Just widening it out. Get them up there. Look like a scarecrow. Well, it was also a time of population growth, urbanization, and the rise of a double income family, meaning your mom had to get her ass to work, right Mom? Janet! She remembers that. Janet, it sucked! Okay. So it necessitated, uh, a lot more day cares to be open and that was going on and everything and it freaked… People who are obsessed with nuclear families, fuckin', fundamental religious people, lost their fuckin' shit over this. They were like, The family, you know. Think of the children, and all this. Um, and also at that time there was this fear of unknown- the unknown. So there- that's when the milk carton- children on milk cartons started and stranger danger became this big thing and the idea that, like, evil was lurking around every corner, right? It was. Crack, AIDS, it was not a good time. Sorry, I was there for all of it. Oh, nuclear annihilation. Anyway. And through it all, our good friends of the podcast, the Christian Fundamentalists. Sponsor of tonight's show. That's right. Uh, and their literal belief in angels and devils, like, you guys know, like, they fucking literally believe in the devil, right? Okay, more on that later. Excuse me. What? I totally believe in the devil. No you don't. I think he is so special. What if I just got hit by a lightning bolt right now? Strike her dead. By the devil? By the devil. He doesn't do lightning bolts. Okay. That's the J-Man upstairs. Yeah. Devil stuff'd be, like, all the sudden my neck would go all the way back, right? Ooooo! You'd be like, Are you, okay? Is your neck… And I'm like, <unk:gibberish>. Yeah, but that's also the symptoms of you have a seizure. Yes or no? Well, I am a witch, so. Oh, really? That's where it's all from. This whole time we could've been having so much fun. Okay, so fundamentalist preachers, like, good friend of the podcast, Jerry Falwell, and his moral majority, uh, they gained prominence across the country because they were- they were preaching this literal fire and brimstone-style Christianity, fuckin' blahbidty-blah. Calm down everyone. They can't Enter- enter the Satanic Panic. Uh, everyone's favorite panic, I think. I like Manic Panic. It's more fun for the hair. Sure, sure. But, we don't have to pick favorites right now. Well, we kind of do. Okay. By the mid- 80s a wave of… Oh, my God, amaze- amazing. Please go on YouTube later tonight and find the, uh, videos that's seminars, tutorials, and educational videos aimed at authorities and religious fanatics, teaching them, like, cops and therapists and preachers and born-again Christians teaching them what to look for when, uh, when dealing with Satanists. I have a photo from, um, the law enforcement guide… What a? Legit. Oh, oh hello. This is from… Walking through the park. <unk:whistling> Whoa, oh, my God! This video is a fucking treasure. And I highly recommend you watch it. It's called The Law Enforcement Guide to Satanic Cults. This is fucking real. Also, that is not the right way to make a fucking pentagram. Yes or no? No, no, no. I'm not even a Satanist. Yeah. Also, who's side is he on? I know. I don't… I think he's on, uh, the U2 side. He's like- he's the first cop/Satanist I've ever seen in my life. You can trust him because he's got a fuckin' mullet. Uh, he's Tom Petty's stunt man. Why does Tom Petty need a stunt man? So many questions. So many questions. Remember the video where he cut the girl up because she was cake? Yes. That's gonna be my reason. I mean, truly amazing stuff. Okay, so, everyone's losing there shit over Satan, blahbidty- blah. Okay, the media, of course, too, was, like, let's get up on this and scare the shit out of everyone. Ratings jump, right? So, uh, it's- it stokes the fuel and misconceptions surrounding occult practices. In 1988, our good friend Geraldo Rivera… Yes. made a- made a, uh, a documentary that went on TV. It was called Devil Worship and I need to say it in his voice, Des-Devil Worship: Exposing Satan's Underground. It became the highest-rated televised documentary to air up until that point. People were like, Let Geraldo tell me everything. I trust that mustache. Yep. If anyone knows about the devil, it's that motherfucker. That's right. And, Vince, unprompted, told me that, when he was a little kid, when this came on, so he was, like, 10, he watched this documentary, scared the shit out of him. The next morning he woke up with the flu and thought that the devil had possessed him. Awww. Like, that's essentially what it did to everyone in America, you guys. Except for me, because I was so drunk I didn't know what was going on. '88? Oh, that was my prime wine cooler time. You had no time for Satan. No, I was Bartles & James only. Um, okay, and then, buh-buh-buh-buh, okay. All these accusations of Satanic ritual abuse came around. They were attached to a string of daycare centers throughout the 80s because people got really into, uh, I don't know, they just… Listen, it's complicated. <laugh> There's lots of reasons. So, for some reason, day cares, they thought that they were bringing all these people who worked at day cares who were like, All I want to do when I grow up is take care of children. They thought that they had- were somehow trying to, uh, ch- I don't know. Molest them? Yes. Okay. So, thank you. That brought about the day care sex abuse mass panic. And among the many prosecutions, many, many prosecutions, of Satanic ritual abuse in day cares was the McMartin trial, which became the largest, longest, and at a price of 15 million, in 1983 money, which today is… 2.3 million dollars. Thank you. Oh, wait, I went down. Shit. Well, it was the 80s, they were having a lot of money. Dammit. It was a hundred million bags of cocaine in today's- in that money. I got so nervous for stage math. It's scary. I panicked. I'm sorry. Satanic panicked. Gasp! Maybe it was Satan. The devil made me do bad math. That's what it is. Lord, Lord! Do a- do a- do a thingie. Do a… <unk:kissing_sounds> There you go. <laugh>. That's the one. That's the Catholic one. That's how you know. Um, okay. So, it- it began in 1983 when a parent of a child who attended the McMartin Preschool in Manhattan Beach, California… <unk:cheering> That's right. Tasteful, that was a tasteful yell. Yeah. You know, right over there. Uh, a 39 year old woman named Judy Johnson… Okay, she notices that her two and a half year old son had some, um, issue… Listen, how do I say? He had some butt troubles. Okay? He had an itchy bottom. Got it. Her mom- the mom took him to a doctor to make sure everything was okay. The doctor's like, He's fine. And she was like, Well, I'm obsessed with Satanism and I think something's going on. Well, I like Geraldo Rivera. Right. So, you're wrong doctor. So she insisted that he wasn't- there was something wrong with him and something going on even though he also said there wasn't. I mean he was two and a half years old, how much can he say, you know? It's like… He's like, Mom, my butt's fine. This is normal stuff. But- but she ignored the doctor and on August 12th she called the police to say that her son had been sodomized by a teacher at the McMartin Preschool. The daycare he had been intending for 2 weeks. And, by the way, it was a daycare… Okay, we're later going to find out that Judy Johnson is- has some mental issues. Sure. We knew. I know. So, she told the investigators that her son, her two and a half year old son said that a McMartin teacher named Ray Bucky taught him to play doctor and forced him to wear women's clothes. Oh, the horror. Um, and that he had been, like, molest- molesting him, and that he said that other parents had said similar abuse stories. So they listened to this woman, they believed everything she said. Ray Bucky is a 25 year old. He- he is the only male teacher at McMartin. It's this like- it's been around for, like, 30 years. it's just really well-respected preschool, uh, everyone loves them there. In the H- 1996 HBO made-for-TV movie, Indictment: The McMartin Trial, he's played by Henry Thomas. Awww. Who is, as an adult. No, no, no. The teacher's played by him. Right. Who is? The boy from E.T. Yes. What did you think I meant? Elliot. I thought you meant Elliot as a little boy, played the little boy. Why did you say Awww? Okay, I get it. 'Cause it's- because it's Elliot? I don't know. It's adorable. I- don't they make you say awww when you talk about E.T. I thought you were saying awww about the actor- the adult actor. And I was like, What? No. You know what. It was the wrong response. Now that I think about it. I need to come back into my body and start doing better math and responding more accurately to what's being said. Why? I was thinking about how fucking boxy scrubs are, and, like, this is, like… You know how it Madewell is doing shirts right now that are, like, fucking 15 feet wide? And you're like, How am I supposed to wear that? I have tits? Like, this is… it's just. I'll pay more attention. <laugh> If only- if you don't mind. If it wouldn't bother you? Oh, may I? I only typed this up and printed it up for you. Oh, I only worked on this for 30 minutes. No. That's not true. Oh, we have a photo of our friend right- uh, Ray Bucky. It- it's, uh… There he is. Obviously, that's him in trial, so, spoiler alert, this goes to trial. Okay. He's like this fucking sucks. Yeah, that's not a happy face. No. So he, uh, was the grandson of the owner of the McMartin preschool. Her name's Virginia McMartin. She's 76 and played by Sada Thompson. Sadie? Sada? Sada Thompson. I don't know. Uh, oh, she- she's from the theater. <laugh> I don't know. She had founded the school in 1966 and until this accusation the school had a stellar reputation. So, the same cannot be said of Judy Johnson, the mother. She was a deeply troubled woman, she was an alcoholic with a history of mental illness. Which I'm like, Who among us isn't? But she was, like, problematic. You know what I mean? Who among us, but, like, when you're drunk- Yeah. and yet and a little fucked up in the head, you get theories and then you're, like, You know what? I'm gonna put this in my diary. Yeah. I'm not gonna- I'm not gonna take this to the public right now. Yeah. You know, you're saying- said, I'm going to scream this at everyone And then they're gonna believe me. Um, and she's, at the time, she was going through an ugly divorce and so not only did she accuse, uh, Bucky of this molest- molesting her son, she also accused her ex-husband, which didn't come to fruition. And, in September, investigators set out to find more evidence against Bucky. They took him into prison and before any fi- files were charges, or anything, they- they did a really rational, calm thing of sending a letter to 200 p- parents of children who were, and have been students, at the McMartin School. Oh, like, people who had graduated from preschool already? Anyone who's ever been there, they sent them all a letter and, uh, in it they asked, among other things, they said, Ray Bucky's been arrested for potentially molesting a child. Calm down, don't worry, everything's fine. And then they said, quote, Please question your child to see if he or she has been a witness to any crime or if she- he or she has been a victim. Uh-huh. Our investigation indicates that possible criminal acts include, you guys ready for a fun list? Uh. Oral sex, fondling of genitals, buttocks or chest area, and sodomy, possibly committed under the pretense of taking a child's temperature. Also, photos may have been taken of the children without their clothing. And then they were like, Please keep this to yourselves. Please don't panic. I'm not fucking kidding, this is totally all happened. Go ahead. I kind of couldn't understand, was the first thing on that list horse sex? No. Because… Oral. Got you. Yes. No, I know what that is. I do. We have a photo of it. No. No. Stop it. All the lights go out. Yeah. It's fuckin'… That's MFM After Dark. Hmm! Look for us on Cinemax. Um, the letter also noted that the teacher might have forced the children to pose naked for photo- for pictures. I already said that. The message didn't at all send the parents into a fucking panic, I wrote. No. It's- at the end of that letter it said, and maybe anything else you've ever feared in your life. Yeah, yeah. The parents put it down and immediately started screaming in their child's faces, asking them if they'd been molested and the children were all reacted calmly and- and, you know. I'm sure it went great. It went great. I said that they didn't- it didn't make them scream-ask their children if they'd ever been molested, so immediately you have these parents who are in a panic and these children that they are, uh, scaring the sh- crap out of you don't understand what's going on. Um, and, so, the DA turned to Children's Institute International. This is an organization that works with abused children to interview the McMartin's… Like, they interview children who have been molested and that sort of thing. And, so, they hire them to talk to the McMartin's students and see if there's any, you know, any basis behind the accusations. Um, unfortunately the Institute's head, named Key McFarland, is this woman who's a little fuckin' crazy herself. So, they… 'Cause she was like… She got out of college and she was like, What do I want to do with my life? Unfortunately, she didn't go to college. Uh, oh. She had a welder's certificate. That was the extent of our education. I'm not fucking kidding. What? Yeah, a welders certificate. Like in Flashdance? Uh-huh. That's hot. Why wouldn't she stay doing welding? Who knows? That's how crazy she is. Uh, girl. I know. Um… No, even, like, Psych 101 shit? Unlicensed- unlicensed psychotherapist. Had no psychological or medical training. Okay. Problematic. Again, fucking, the 80s need to go to jail. Yeah. They did. They did. But, don't worry, she only had to examine and interview, uh, a handful of kids who would come forward after this letter came about. Only 400 children. So don't worry. Um, so she and two other, unqualified assistants were allowed to conduct their investigations. They famously use an addict- an anatomically correct dolls, you know. Like, Show me on this doll where the bad man touched you. And, I think we have a photo of Kay. Let's… Or, Key, I mean. Let's see her photo. I think, yeah. That's prob- problematic. A bald eagle? Fuck? That's the problem? I'm just saying. It doesn't… Look at these monsters. I know. And then she would do this thing where she'd be like… What's that back there? Fuck. Karen, there's nothing there. What? Huh? There's no face there. There hasn't been a doll like that here in 25 years. So, thank you so much. Thank you. That's my character There hasn't been a BLANK like that around here… And now it's 25 years, which isn't that long ago. No, it's not that long. Yeah, I don't know. It's still my favorite- one of my favorites. Followed- followed closely by Drunk Karen. She's here. She'll make an appearance tonight, don't worry. She'll come out. She's a special… And then I'm gonna have a ladder rolled out and do my one woman show. It's gonna be so good! Okay. So, they were… Look, this fuckin' chick, and there's like transcripts of it, where she's just like, Hey, Billy, uh, all your friends said that mr Bucky touched you. Are you stu- Literally said, Are you stupid or do you know that this happened? Like, I'm not kidding you, the kids would be like, I don't think that happened. And they'd be like, Well, I think you're lying to me or are you just dumb? I swear. She was just, like, berating them until she got the answer she wanted. Jesu Fucking Christ. Uh-huh, it's absolutely right. And- and was it the- the kind of thing of, like, she's like, I need to do my work. No one else of, like, a responsible adult gets to be in the room? Well, they- everyone believed it. Everyone thought that this is really happening. I mean everyone believed her. And when she pulled out the bald eagle and crocodile puppets, no one was like, You know what? Let's take a pause and regroup in the conference room. That's how they did, like, childhood psychology and therapy back then, is, you act shit out. But you don't, like, lead the witness who's a fuckin' three year old child into being, like, Yeah, you know, not that you mention it. And, hey, let me redo some of the shit that came- that they ended up saying. You also don't lead a child into just a fucking full-on insult to their face. Right. Um. Dummy. These extremely coercive interview processes lead to false memories among children. Meaning, children are- I mean, we all know here, children are liars. No one has one here, right? 'Cause otherwise you'd be home with them. Children are liars. They love lying almost as much as they love Halloween candy. They're both delicious. So, uh, and then it let to highly fantastic claims of abuse directed at the entire staff at McMartin high… Eh, where are we? Preschool. Out of 400 children- Preschool/high school. The interviewers ended up coming out and saying that 359 of them have been abused. Fuck. Okay, buh-buh-buh-buh-buh, all right, around- around- among the many outlandish claims that children made in the case, uh, it- were that the daycare owners would flush them down toilets- Right. -into secret underground tunnels- Fun. -under this tiny little school. Um, that lead them to transport them to ritual ceremonies. That's cool. The teachers, like ritually sacrificed animals in front of the kids. Clubbed a horse to death with a baseball bat. No. No, don't worry, it didn't fuckin' happen! Calm down. How did the horse get down the toilet? How? Seriously. Just, someone ask one fucking question. Number one question. Number one. How small was that horse? Can I see that horse? Can I feed that horse a carrot? 'Cause that's the cutest fucking horse of all time. Absolutely. That they… Even then I don't think it would fit down a toilet. Like, let's think rationally, people. Let's think about toilets. Yeah. Let's get one out here. Come on out! Come on out! That they sacrificed a baby in a church. So, like, in the middle of the day in preschool, they were like, Kids, we're going to a church, we'll have you home by nap time. Grab your cloaks. It'll be fine. Made the children drink blood and that the teachers dressed up as witches and legitimately flew through the air. So, these- everyone's like, Oh my God I knew that fuckin' Jerry Falwell was telling the truth! Said no one, ever. Um, and took the kids to orgies at airports and car washes. Which, everyone knows, is the best place to go for an orgy. 'Cause you're just immediately clean walking through a car wash. That's right. I'm… Is it like at the Southwest gate? How do you, at the airport? How do you, at the airport? Has anyone ever, at the airport? How? You know, when I'm at my horniest, is when I'm at an airport. Yeah. No. Ugh, you're like, Look at a Chili's too. mm-hmm <affirmative>. mm-hmm <affirmative>. mm-hmm <affirmative>. mm-hmm <affirmative>. mm-hmm <affirmative>. mm-hmm <affirmative>. mm-hmm <affirmative>. mm-hmm <affirmative>. You know what I love? Satan. No. So, after six… Okay, I mean, there- this goes on so long I'm not gonna- to do. Also, I just want to say, clearly they were led because there's so many ideas here that are not preschool-level children ideas at all. Right, right. It's like, what three year old talks about the fuckin' airport? At all? One kids like, I love a car wash. And she's like, You were molested at a car wash? And it's like, no! What's that you say? Yeah. But can I have candy? Okay, yeah, I'll do what you say. Um… Good job, dummy. It's the only part of this story I like. So, essentially the- all these charges are dropped with- with the other teachers, but they're all brought- it's a 6 year, fucking trial, Six years of this while they're in prison the whole time. Uh, including- so it was only, after a while, it was only Ray Bucky and his Peggy McMartin-Bucky. Let me show you a photo of this fuckin' Satan-worshiping psychopath. I mean, I know that monsters are hiding among us, you know, they look like us, they look like everyday fuckin' people, but I bet you anything she's not into Satan. You know what she's into? Making your lasagna. That's all she wants to do. Look at her afghan that she's clutching at court. Uh, Jesus. If you bring an afghan to court, there should be a rule that you're innocent immediately. Get outta here. You're like, See, I knitted it myself. Ma'am, get me my gavel, I have to get you out of here. I'm glad I brought this stethoscope out here, it was a good idea. It was worth it. It was so good. So, uh, after six years of investigation and litigation, the case, ultimately, is- it goes away due to a lack of utter evidence. The original accusing parent, remember our friend Jill. I do. She's eventually diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. Oh, no! mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, our investigate- and the investigation techniques used by the Children's Institute, our friend Key, uh, were thoroughly discredited by the psychological community after six years. Finally, in 1990, little old lady Peggy is acquitted and Ray Bucky eventually had all charges dismissed as well. The jury was like, What have we been doing for 6 fucking years. These poor people. Then they found out that the Children's Institute, um, was just a spiral notebook that lady had in the back of her car. And she's like, I have ideas about fucking everybody's life up. An toilets. Uh… And toilet horses. She was like, Oops, this was supposed to be a novel of fiction. I fucked up and I brought the wrong notebook for six years. Dammit! She was actually- she was supposed to write Harry Potter but she fucked it up. She fucked it up. She got selfish. Um, then, duh-duh-duh-duh-duh. They got lucky, though, because this happened all over. I mean, think of the fucking West Memphis Three, it's the same thing with the Satanic Panic. And, in fact, there were two owners, this married couple of a preschool in Oak Hill, Texas who had similar charges brought against them. But they spent 23 years in prison before being released in 2013. Yeah. That was a couple years ago, you guys. Um, despite no evidence ever found that they had done anything they'd been accused of. I remember seeing that on, I think it was a, 60 Minutes, maybe, and it was… You could tell they purely did it because they didn't like the look of 'em. It was, like, you could tell the people that were in charge were like, Oh, get him. You know? That guy has long hair, it was that kind of thing. Well, were they wrong? No. Kidding. Well… They were wrong. Okay. McMartin Preschool building in Manhattan Beach was razed in 1990 and, uh, the Satanic ritual abuse claims relied essentially, that was found, to rely on overzealous law enforcement, ob- obstan- unsubstantiated… What did you say? Unsubstantiated statements from children and false memories implanted during therapy and, above all, coercive and suggestive interrogation by therapist and prosecutors. Again… And car washes. Yeah, shout out to Aja Romano from Vox for all her amazing information and that is the daycare sex abuse mass panic of the McMartin trial. Ugh. <unk:cheering> Oh, awful. Sweating. That was a sweaty one. That was a sweaty one. That was rough stuff. Oh, sorry I keep doing that. Jesus Christ. What? Okay. Thank you. I'm going to now tell you guys… Great job by the way. Thank you, thank you. That was very, very, very upsetting. Just like we like on Howl-loween. Mmmm. I'm gonna tell you guys all about the mannequin at the carnival. The what? It's my new book of poetry, The Mannequin at the Carnival. This all takes place at an old, um, amusement park in Long Beach called The Pike. Yeah. Either someone's from Long Beach or they're getting stabbed right now in the audience. That was bloodcurdling. That scream. Although, if you're from Long Beach you would kind of blood-curdle scream for yourself, I would think. You would- you got to. Okay. In the turn of the century Long Beach, you know how I like to talk about the turn of the century. Karen will not shut up about the turn of the century Long Beach. So, the big thing to do, uh, in southern California, obviously, was go to the beach. Long Beach had this big old pier, I think we have a picture and they had a bath house called The Plunge. Look at it. Look at them. So this is what people, who were dressed from their neck all the way to the tips of their toes, they loved all their asses on down to the beach and stand in the sun for hours. Nothing is more fun than just slowly strolling uncomfortable tiny shoes… Corsets, and, of course, everyone's wearing their funeral blacks. Important. I bet everyone smells so bad. Yeah. It's like powder and decay. And B.O. And, yeah, so, uh, there was a red car line that went from Los Angeles down to Long Beach so people could get out of the city for the day and then go down here and chill out on the beach because they can't go to the beach in LA. Anyway, don't think about it. So it gets so popular, um, they start adding… There's a carnival, um, concessions, rides, they string lights above the walkway, um… Charming. Right? They call it the Walk of a Thousand Lights. Oh! This is back when lights were a big deal. Oh, right. Right. Yeah. Okay. They're like <unk:gasp> <unk:louder_gasp_urning>. Electric light? Is it God himself? As it's popularity grows, they build a midway, um, that has now like a seaside studios souvenir photography studio. Um, Duluth carousel, MacGruder saltwater taffy. I mean, all the things that us here would just have- love to do all the time. Saltwater taffy is gross and tastes bad. And then it rips all your fillings out. And I bet back then they had like one flavor. It was just sand. Sand flavor. Yeah. Alfalfa. Yeah. Um, there was but- there was, your favorite, pitch and skill games, pony rides, go-carts, a fortune tellers, a weight guesser. Shut up. I know. Would you shut up? You don't know it. Yeah. And a variety of dark, uh, of thrill rides, amusements, and attractions. Oh, here's this picture I found that I just, kind of, like. Um, I don't know if it's an attraction or if it's, um… Oh, Stephen actually put Long Beach Trolley there as if that's the name of it. But I just called it a trolley because I didn't know what else to call it. I like it. That's- please don't anyone go and, like, write your thesis about the Long Beach Trolly. This just another one of my lies. Okay, um, well, we think there's another one. This- the one after this. No, there's gonna be a bunch, Georgia. This- this story is mostly pictures. Um, the next picture, I think there's, yeah. Shit. Look how rad that kid is. That kid wants to fight me. That kid is like- that kid saw the photographer and he was like, Fucking come at me, bro. I'm filled with salt water taffy and I'm gonna kick your ss right now. Oh, my God. Look at him. He has two jobs and he smokes. Yay. Look it… And those are little flags and that's where the lights are. That's the Walkway of Lights. There's salty old Virginia, she's just doing her thing in her uncomfortable shoes. She's got a full bottle of gin in her purse. Where do you want to go? The Pier? Ugh. All right. Here's penny, leave me alone. Get out of here, kid. Gary, his name's Gary. It's baby Gary. Yay. It's baby Gary. All right. Then, in 1930, they build the humongous roller coaster The Cyclone Racer. Have you ever seen this thing? No. Okay, it's rad. This is the entrance. It's a hundred feet tall. Hard pass. It's all made of wood. You no-no? I don't wanna. Are you gonna me me go on it right now? No, you have to. And, can we do the wide of it because it went out, essentially, the next picture is the wide. Um, it goes out into the sea. Guys, no. So, what is your fear? Heights? We've got you covered. The ocean? We've got you covered. Weird deaths? Yeah. We're there. Like, early architecture that's made by, like, alcoholic hobos who, like, just don't give a shit. And then, like, no licensing and, like, no checks and balances. That's exactly. They're like, I like roller coasters, so I'm gonna build one, see? Right, over the ocean. Insurance? We don't need insurance! Don't be crazy. It's all that little kids idea. Gary is such an entrepreneur. More than a few drunken sailors, who had gone down to the pier, because there's lots of sailors- sailors stationed down in Long Beach, uh, ignored the do not stand up sign. And why wouldn't you? I mean, it's your special day. If it's your day and you wanna have fun your way, stand up on this insane roller coaster with no safety features whatsoever, and die, die, die, die, die. So, it had dual tracks, hairpin turns, a skeletal frame that dangled out over the ocean, like myself. And, by World War 2, the Pike- the whole amusement area, had, um, grown to 15 acres. Um, and then they had- they added freak shows, they added arcades, shooting gallery's, dance halls, bars tattoo parlors. It was filled year-round with tourists and quote thousands of salty sailors stationed in Long Beach. Sorry, before I go any further I got all this information from an article on Slate.com on a website called allthatsinteresting.com and- but it's just this story. No, just kidding. And then there's a guy named Charles Phoenix who- who has a website. You- you know that guy? It's all, like, retro stuff and it kind of explains like, it used to be nice down here. Look at these pictures. Um, so that- the, uh, salty sailors quote is from his website, that's what reminded me. All right. So in 1950 they hold a contest to rename the Pike. Okay. Do you wanna do a guess of, like, what's a better name for the Pike Amusement Park? Oh, um. Drunk People Everywhere. That is good. No. The Fighting- The Fighting- Wave Tectonics. Yes. How did- how did you do that? Am I right? They renamed it the New Pike. So- so, uh- so, meh… Okay. Maybe they should have just called it Piker. Right? Piker. Like more than pike? Yeah. The New Pike. Piker. Piker-er. Well, you should have entered the fucking contest then. Clearly. Clearly. That's the thing is they hold a contest and it's like the fish bowl is out on the desk and there's just that one piece of paper that says New Pike inside and they're like, Any else- any other people have ideas? Anyone? Seriously? Seriously. Just say anything. It could be like Wave Tectonics. It could be Wave Tectonics. Anything. So, by the 70s, this place turned into, like, this shitty, rundown carnival that looked like somewhere you- you- you would not have a ride away from and then be, like Oh, this is it for me. Do we have a picture of what it ended up looking like after it was, like… Seven- 70s new Pike is pretty sad. Cool. I like this shit. Close your eyes and picture it in your mind. You're going to. Did I not have the New Pike? I might have skipped that one. Well, if it comes up, it comes up and Steven is fired. Anyway, this is where our story begins, I actually wrote that down because I was like, You're talking about this carnival so much no one knows what's going on anymore. You're supposed to be doing a Halloween show where everyone's creeped out and spooky Halloween and, instead, it's like Carnival Days in Long Beach. So, in 1976, they're filming the Six Million Man at the New Pike. Cool. I think that was my mom. I swear to fucking God. Look- look at that piece. Look at that hot piece right there in his whip-stitch jacket. That is a mother fuckin' button nose if I've ever seen one. Oh, he's just a precious man, that's all. Okay. God, that guy… He was, like… When I was growing up, because this show was on from '74 to '78, I think, and this is just like some of my most baseline memories is, like, Oh, it's my mom and my dad and fuckin' that guy in the background. Always. He was everywhere. He was humong. Um, okay, so just, if you don't know, you're- you're like I'm a millennial and I won't pay attention to anything before 1999 then I'll tell you this was a television show. This is what we watched before YouTube. And it ran from '74 to '79. It was about a former astronaut named Colonel Steve Austin who was played by Lee Majors. That's him. Very talented man. Uh, he had been given superhuman strength because the government had given him bionic implants. So we… That's a fuckin' true story to you guys. It is. I know it. They just don't want you to know about it. Yeah. He just wasn't super hot, the guy they actually did it to. No, he was kind of plain. Um, Steve Austin could run super fast but you knew that because he was running in slow motion and then there was like a machine sound that they laid over the top of slow motion running and you're like, God he's so fast. And that was CGI back then. Yes. Just some- just some layers. Uh, and then he also had one, like, real weird eye. Like a, just a, real sharp eye. TV! He's bionic. Don't worry about it. One time Steve Austin met up with Bigfoot. Do we have that next week picture. Yeah he did. Look at him. Holy shit! I mean, like, '74 to '79, that's a long fuckin' time, like, that fifth season writers room they're like, We did the thing where he fought against Russians but we did that already. What about… Did he ever meet up with, and I remember this happening, like, this was a rule that had to happen on every show, the fuckin' Harlem Globe Trotters. Did you ever have to team up with them? They're all inside this Bigfoot suit. Oh, my God. Amazing. I- this is actually one of, uh, a very distinct memory I have because when… I don't know if they were fighting or if they were just having fun in the forest but, Bigfoot, like, was throwing huge logs. I mean we- that's all we- we had no choices back then in our entertainment. We're just like, no, I love this. I love this. I want a lunch box with this on it. Mother fuckers, so… And now our story begins. Okay. So they're shooting an episode of the Six Million Dollar Man at the New Pike Carnival and it's an episode where, for some reason, Steve Austin, the Six Million Dollar Man goes on a spooky fun house ride. Sure, that's dignified. Um, you know how, like, government operatives, when they're fighting crime- Sometimes-- go on a fun house to do so? Yeah. Perhaps he was chasing a criminal that also wanted to have fun real quick- Sure. -before he got away. Absolutely. So it was- they actually went on the- a real ride from the New Pike and it was closed. It was called Laugh in the Dark and I think we have a picture of it. This is one of the only things, look at it, leftover. Wow. Yeah. It's real. Okay. And it was really there. Okay. And, it's the kind of thing where, just like the Children's Institute, you're like, Somebody made this up and it's not a good idea. Laugh in the Dark is dumb- Yeah, yeah. -it's a bad name. Yeah, and it's not spelled right. It's not spelled right and it doesn't look fun, funny, or scary. Uh-uh. It just looks like a bit- it almost looks like where the bathroom should be. Okay, picture, if you will, the propman from in the Six Million Dollar Man has to go into Laugh in the Dark- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -and look at all the shit that's been stuck in there and be like, Okay, well, if the shot goes through here, we're gonna be looking at this, this, this, and this. This is what we want. Or do we actually bring in things that are interesting looking? And, so, as he does that, uh, it says, In the ride there's a tunnel were various ghosts, ghouls, skeletons, and demons pop out at you as your car is jerked side to side in the dark. Sounds fun. I mean, you know what it'll make you do? L-A-F-F, laugh. That's for sure. So, the prop guy is fixing shit up, he sees there's a mannequin hanging from a noose in the corner. So he probably is like, I don't know if the kids'll love that, now that we've got the Bigfoot crowd following us. We might- we might wanna take the noose out of the shot. Yeah. He goes up to grab the mannequin and he ends up pulling its arm off and then when he looks at the arm there's a bone inside of it. Ew! Oh no! Spooky Halloween. Spooky Halloween. Not only a bone, but a tissue-like flesh around the bone. Gross. So he puts that arm down very gingerly and then he proceeds to scream for 11 days, in the dark. He stays there. He stays there. Right in the dark, screaming. 11 days. Uh, where did I go? Oh, it's right at the bottom of the page. Wow. Scream- oh, I put screams for 11 years. Days is funnier. Years is too long. We have to edit on the fly. We have to know that everything is fixable. Who's she? That's the opposite of drunk Karen. I hate her. This, okay, prepare yourselves. If you brought, like, a baby or something, turn it away. Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, seriously? This is the- this is what was found. Holy shit, no! In the dark. How? Why? See where the arm was broken off? Yeah. That's how it was hanging when the guy still thought it was a mannequin over there. No, that looks… No. No, right? No. The answer's yes or no. No. No, okay. I don't want to go on this ride either, please. Are you gonna make me go on this ride <crosstalk>. Yeah, you have to. No, you have to! <laugh> That's horrible. It also, I can't tell it somebody Photoshopped it red, which, if you did, hats off to you because it makes it… That picture's awful and it looks like something they would be, like, a creepy pasta you're reading where you're like This isn't real. A child wrote this. And then that would be the picture underneath the article. This, on the other hand, well, that looks like tandoori chicken, which is delicious. It's scary in a different way. It's scary in a- it's heightened. Okay. Oh my God. So here's what's happening. It turns out the mannequin was Elmer Macurdy, an Old West outlaw who died in a gun fight with police 65 years earlier. Holy shit. Right? In 1911, Elmer Macurdy, the Mischief-Making Vagabond… That's the best nickname of all time, it's super long, you can't remember it. He robbed a train in Oklahoma and then he took his $46 and bottle of whiskey- Which at that time was… $17,000. That's right. And he fled to Kansas. When the police found him they, um, they- he hid in a big haystack because this is a Bugs Bunny cartoon and they start a shootout. He says, You'll never take me alive. And they're like, Sounds great, it's a deal. And they kill him and then his body is taken to a funeral home. It sits at the funeral home. No one ever claims it, so the undertaker, who, uh, saw… It's 1911, so he's like, I need money. We all need money. This is the Wild West. So what he does is he puts Elmer's body out in front of the funeral home still in his, um, casket and he- the setup is, you can come look at him if you put a nickel in his mouth. <unk:audience_recoils> Do we have- No. -a picture? You have a photo? <unk:audience_recoils> Go right up. What the fuck? Go right up, little girl. What's wrong? He looks like Ted Bundy, kinda. Well. No, I see how you think he's cute. I did not- I never said- I didn't… Oh, my God. That is terrifying. I mean, you try to live your life as a bank robber, whatever, with respect, and you end up being a fuckin' bank for children. Yeah. Not cool. That's not cool. Um, but it doesn't end there. Okay. Because, uh, that goes on for awhile and then in 1915, two guys from a carnival come and say their Elmer's brothers and they are there to take him away to be buried. I don't believe 'em. And the undertakers like, Uh, okay, and then he, like, opens up his head and all the nickels fall out. Stop it. Stop it, that's not funny. It's like a gumball machine. How else do you get the nickels out, like, what's the thinking? We were all wondering. Like, what was he gonna do? Yeah, we wanted to know. How'd you get them nickels? Um, so, the two brothers aren't real brothers or other carnival owners and, so, Elmer then becomes an attraction at their traveling carnival and he's displayed as the bandit who wouldn't give up. Jesus. This sounds like a Scooby Doo cartoon. Yes, there should definitely be a big stacked-up sandwich somewhere in this. You can eat in one bite. How did he do it? He was so thin and he could eat all the tall sandwiches he wanted. Ugh, so jealous. I hate Shaggy. Okay. <laugh> So, when the body is considered no longer in mint condition… Oh, sorry. There's always these beauty standards that we have to live up. Oh. They changed, uh, the act and he then is displayed as the 1,000 Year Old Man. Great, yeah. The hits keep coming. Yeah. Carl Reiner's like, That was my idea, Thank you. Someone listens to comedy records from the 40s. I'm not alone anymore. This goes on for 60 years. Uh-uh. Nope. Too many… The, just displaying this man willy-nilly at carnivals, wax museums, haunted houses, and then he finally ends up at Pikes Amusement Park, um, where they applied a nice coat of paint to him. Great. And they hung him in Laff in the Dark. They thought, uh, the, uh, whatever you call, authorities, believe that he was hanging there for four years before he was discovered. Um, they took his body back to Oklahoma and buried him in 1977 which we have a picture of. Is it gonna be his body… Oh, great. Finally. That's nice. Although, after they buried him, they did pour an extra slab of concrete over his casket so he wouldn't get out and wander about again. I- you guys, that doesn't happen. And, also, he didn't do it in the first place. They did it to him. Right. It wasn't like, You know where I wanna go next? He's like… No, you stay down there. I'd love to mother fuckers, I wanted to do this 65 years ago. And that's the story of Elmer Macurdy, the mannequin at the carnival. <unk:cheering> Amazing. I found that one so long ago. I'm so happy for you. No, I really am. I am so happy for you. I am so happy for you. No, that- that was, yeah, that was a good one. Thanks. Good job. Thank you so much. Do we have time for a costume contest. It's a costume, you wanna see? I do. Watch this. Here we go. Oh my God. I'm dressed as Elvis. Yes, you are! Vince Averill everybody, tour manager… It's Averill! Vince Averill. Vince, if I hadn't of already married you, I would marry the shit out of you right now. Just for this? Yes, truly. Uh, real quick, the Bigfoot on Six Million Dollar Man, Andre The Giant. What? Are you serious? Absolutely. Absolutely. I love- I love him. Double married. Double married. No it's a double wedding. Me and you and him. Trick or treat, ladies, I'll be right back. Thank you. Oh my… He's also in character as Elvis. I know. He's not just wearing the outfit. Our cat is named Elvis, guys, for anyone who's new. That's… Get it? So Vince went around and pulled some interesting- some of interest, uh, costumes, out of the audience. If you're sitting there with your perfectly put together girl from The Ring and you're, like, Mine's better. It might be. Yep, you're probably right. We just wanted to do highlight some efforts. Yeah, just a couple of cool people. Why are we so defensive about the costume contest? You all look great, by the way. You really do, thank you so much. Those of you dressed up, where are they Vince? They're all back stage, just chillin' out. That was so cute, because get it? Elvis. My cat's Elvis. I do. It's like a- it's like a play on words. That's so cute. Yeah. It's very smart. That's so not like him. I'm just really happy about that. Yeah, he doesn't take big swings. He's a very low key person. Yeah. Yeah. And, with the gesturing, I don't know what we're waiting for right now. He fired. Really. Everyone's fired tonight at the entire Microsoft. You know, today, when I was driving to work, there was a girl wearing a really tight Rogue costume. She was dressed as Rogue, but, like, in real latex, I think. Or, like, it was just this thing and she had the hugest butt and, so, as I drove I was like, Yeah! I was like… On Halloween, you put it out there, and, if you gonna put it out there, you should be supported by other big butted girls, I think. Put it out there. People like it. They love it. I love it. All right, let's get our… Vince picked these costumes, let's see what he's brought out. What should we got? Yay! Yeah! Oh my God, I love that movie. You look amazing! What's happening? It's Lilu. Hi. Hey. Nice to meet you guys. Hi, crazy. How are you? What's your name? My name's Jessica, but I'm also the Supreme Being. Hi, Jolie! Say it again. I'm Jessica but I'm also the Supreme Being. The Supreme Being, that's right. I thought the Supreme Being was that lady that sang opera. Nope. It's me. It's Lilu. I'm going over here. I protect you. Oh, wait a second, it's a two parter. It's Ruby Rod! What's your name? Katy. Your lady next to you too. It's Katy. You're such a little peanut, I love it. I'm a peanut. The Notorious RBG. Oh, there she is. It's the Notorious RBG. The Notorious RBG. Amazing. What's your name? Jolie. Jolie. Thank you so much. Great job you guys. Nice one, good job. Thank you for dressing up. You look incredible. That's my Wednesday outfit. That's her Wednesday outfit. <inaudible> It's just my Wednesday outfit. Yes. It just so happens to be… I love it. Cool. Um, I don't know, what do you guys want to do now? I was just gonna stand here for the rest of the night. Okay, cool. It's my bedtime, but, I mean. What did you say? Is there a contest? Well, um, I think you guys, all three, already won. Here, I have, um… Oh, whatchu got? Georgia's got some prizes for you. I have some… I can't take candy. She can't take candy. Relax Ruth Bader Ginsburg, for Christ's sake. Here's a- here, I'm gonna give you my pin because I didn't bring three. The pin off your jacket? Oh, because you only have two. Here you go. Good job everybody. Good job. Thank you. Yes. Great job, everyone! Give them a hand. I think that's it. Thank you so much. I just have to give a shout out to my girlfriend, Lisa. Hi, Lisa. Oh, are you a hanger on? A little bit, I'm trying to become a Murderino. Get out. Oh, you're too late. Too late. Good job. Hi, what's your name? John. John, where the fuck were you? Lost. Really? I had no idea where to go. Did you have to get up here by yourself? Well, no one said my name. Oh, that's cause you didn't get picked. <laugh> God, Halloween is tough sometimes, isn't it? Do you have another pin for John? No, I don't I'm sorry. Whatchu got? My food. Perfect. Thank you. Thanks you guys. Give 'em a hand. Thanks you guys! That's all. Here. Here. Good job. We didn't really have a plan. No. We just wing it around here. Yeah, good job. Thanks you guys. You can just go get lost, kind of wander backstage. Yeah. And I think there's some… Go through my purse. There's hockey next door. Oh, there's one more. Oh, oh. He's dressed as a serial killer. Wait. Is there? Let's see. Uh, oh. <inaudible> it's fucking' Ed Kemper. Oh my God. You guys. It's Cameron Britton! Hi! Cameron Britton from HBO Mindhunters is here. Right? We had a reason for doing that. It was a big mess. Here, come sit down with us. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How'd you like our costume contest, Cameron? Pretty good? Hello. It was, it was great. This is my version of my own costume. It's not great. It's really good. Yeah, I didn't have tennis shoes like New Balance on the day. But this is what I auditioned in. This was the shirt. Is that true? Really? Yeah, this is it. How many times did you have to audition? I auditioned, uh, six times. Really. Wow. And they told me that no one else had to, so I don't know, like… Nobody else… Jonathan Groff was like, No, I did twice and then… Wow. Maybe they just wanted to see you act more. Yeah. Maybe. Did you know who Ed Kemper was when you went in? No, I had no idea. You didn't? No. But I could tell by the script that I was sent, I was only sent a few pages, there was something about it that just didn't seem like it was, um, made up by a writer. It seemed like quotes. Yeah. Yeah. Very grounded. Very grounded writing. Yeah, so, I just got a feeling. I typed Ed Kemper into YouTube and I went down a rabbit hole. Yeah. Of a long time that I can- I'll never forget, like, we went that night. I did a self-tape and then we went to a bar in north Hollywood and, uh, my friends and I were talkin' about, Okay, I just had this audition, this guy really did… And I, like, went through the list of all the things he did to his mom and, like, we're all just drinkin' and Oh, my God, that's the craziest thing. And then I was like, You guys, I got a callback for that. And they're like, Really? And then I was like, You guys, I got another callback for that. And they're like, That's great. And then I was like, You guys, I got another callback for that. And it just kept going. Over six weeks. Wow. Wow. But then it ended up, uh, that you got an Emmy nomination for that role that you did. Yeah, yeah. Hey! That's a pretty good feeling, right? Yeah, it was, um, it was just pretty emotional actually. This was my first guest star at 31 and it's led to being here talkin' to 7,000 people. Look at it. This could all be yours. This could all be yours. And we had the Emmy's there and I sat right down there next to, uh… Oh, wow. Yeah, the Emmy's were here. That's right, because they held them here. There. I was right next to Jane Lynch, we were <unk:trails_off> The Emmy's were a practice for this show. Yeah, that was what it was. And I didn't get on stage that night, but I'm here now. So I'm on stage <crosstalk> That's right. That's right. And we're giving you our version of an Emmy. Oh, a Stethy. <laugh> What? So, how long did you have to- because you- you played Ed Kemper so beautifully that it made me a little terrified of you when I met you earlier. Yeah. Because it was so good and real. How long did you have to, like, practice being the biggest creep? Well, TV never rehearses, but we rehearsed a lot actually. Uh, we discussed it a lot and I had a few months before the first shoot, which we shot it in order. Uh, and then, uh, maybe a few months later I did the next one. Finally- so it was 9 months in character I just kinda passed up auditions and stuff. So I just focused on him for nine months which, in TV again, as a guest star is impossibly rare. Yeah. Yeah. =And that's the show, you know. It- it- if anyone there hasn't seen it- it- it's a- it goes all out in making it as authentic as possible. Yeah. You know, there's no… I love Hannibal Lecter, but it's so over the top, uh, this is much more grounded. Well, because they're real people. I mean it's that thing where we read these stories and we talk about the- the facts of these cases that are so… You just can't believe, um, you know, a guy cut his own mother's head off and buried her in the backyard facing the house. All- it's all shit where you're like, What! But then it's, like, it's a real person. It's a real person that did that. Yeah, I still can't believe… It's weird, because, you know, like, Stalin murdered millions of people, but, still, like if you cut your moms head off and you have sex with it, we're still like, What? What? Yes. No you didn't. And then he's six foot nine and his IQs like 145 and the guy's just… Yeah. Did you have to… You're not six foot nine. I'm six-five. I mean, I didn't mean that as an insult. No. You're plenty tall. I- I have no problems. Did you have to wear heals? Uh, I did, yeah. Did you really? Yeah. High heels? Yeah, it was boots with high heels on it and then, I mean, those hurt like hell. Like, when you… Yeah, the fuckin' do. Um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Finally. Try it at 300 pounds, girls. Okay. So, yeah. But a lot of that stuff, like I took my shoes off so not to take you out of the moment, but if you're watching the show and my feet are under a table there's a good chance I have no shoes on. Just kind of chillin' back, you know. Oooh. Hippy Ed Kemper. Secrets of Hollywood. Right. You know what's really funny too, is, like, talking to you it's not totally dissimilar, it's not like this, you know, uh, eh… But when you were Ed Kemper there was no light in your eyes. You were the most dead-eyed, reptilian person. Thank you! Right? Yes. That's not you. That's crazy. I worked really had on that dead-eyed thing. You- you turn that light out real good. Uh, Christian Bale talked about, he- he based a lot of American Psycho off of Tom Cruise because he noticed that his smile never reaches his eyes, that was his thing. Whoa. Face rule. And, so there is a way, actually, you can practice just killing your eyes. Oh my God. <laugh> We should start a Hollywood gossip podcast. Abso-fucking-lutely. The three of us. Yes. Yeah. Let's start one. Oh my God. The right <crosstalk> tonight. Oh my God. Russel Crowe and Dakota Fanning went out and… I doubt they did, ever. Were you- you have a, um, a hometown murder story, right? I do. I do. A hometown murder story. It's an old family secret that, uh, my grandmother didn't- she didn't know that she had two uncles, uh, until she was 18 years old. It was so secret, but all the people involved are dead now, so they don't care. So I'm gonna tell you. Those are the best ones. The best ones. You're gonna make the most jokes on those ones. Let's talk about the dead. So, let's go back to 1897. Yes. This house was built on this property my family still has, we still camp on it, but at that time it was sheep herding country. Uh… Where is this? This is in Cazadero, California. mm-hmm <affirmative>. But you may know, there's no way. There are, to this day, 400 people living in the town <crosstalk> They're not here tonight. They're all here tonight. They're- they're all here. Yes, even the mayor. We could all become our own army and just take over Cazadero. All of us on a whim. So- so, it's, uh, this is even further up north than that. This is way out in the woods of northern California. Uh, and my great grandfather grew up in this house and, uh, he drove a mule to school an everything. Wow. Like, so- so when he, okay, so his two older brothers Don and James, James murdered Don. Spoiler alert, James was, uh, he- he had a complicated birth so they think he had a lack of oxygen, so he had, like, the mind of an eight year old. And he, uh, his mother, Anna, brought him to a mental institution and brought him in and looked around and then decided, No, it's not right for him. Which, is, you know, unfortunate because, sometime later, uh, Don and James were down at the barn and we're really not sure on the dispute, we think Don was heading to San Francisco and that made James jealous, because on that day, just going to San Francisco was amazing. It's a big deal. It was just like, Well, you're the coolest guy I've ever met. That's how it was in my town too, when I was growing up. Wait, how old were the boys? They were in their 20s at this point, but my great grandfather's the younger brother, he was, like, seven. So, uh, I'm whispering, like, Oh! It's scary. Gather 'round. Gather 'round everyone. You guys. So, then- so, they're have a dispute and James was known, uh, the children were all scared him growing up for these violent outburst he'd have. And they got in a dispute and he grabbed the ax off the barn door and he- and he murdered Don. And Anna, the mother, heard it and ran down to the barn and found James covered in blood and then, when my mom tells it, she goes in, And it's really upsetting for James because he was a clean freak. That wasn't really, like, I don't know if you need the icing on the cake. Like, also, he was upset because of all his brother's blood on him. It's sticky, you know. Uh, so, but Anna was, kind of, a baller, I still can't believe that she would do this. She- she said, I got it handled. And she- she stayed with James alone in this- in this wilderness with her son who'd just murdered her other son and she sent George, my- my grand, uh, great grandfather, at 7 years old, to the nearest house to get help. And that was two miles away in the dark, in the woods. Holy shit. In the dark. In the woods! In the dark, in the woods. In the dark, in the woods. No. So, like, it's, like, a bad day and then it's like a really bad day. So, you know, it's not great. Um, and thankfully he doesn't remember much of it, but, uh- uh, James went to a mental institution and he died there and yeah, my grandma never knew, until she was 18, uh, and then four more people died of, you know, old age or just that stuff that people died of all the time, in the day. Uh, and in that house, and that house got very haunted. My mother's seen ghosts in there. <unk:Gasp> <unk:Gasp> And then we would go camp and sleep in this house. We'd be like, We wanna go to Disneyland. And she'd be like, No, we're going- you gotta remember your history <crosstalk>. Oh, no! it was horrifying. Don't remember you history. Don't remember you history. You can learn nothing. And, so, uh, and- and that's really it. Jesus. What more do you want? I mean, listen people. Layer upon layer. That's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. So good. And, do you think, did you bring a little James into the Kemper characterization? I don't know, maybe he's in there. Maybe he's in there right now. You know what was in there? Uh, Robert California from The Office. Again, not to ruin it. But, it wasn't like I was like, And a little of Robert California. And I'm, like, sprinkling. It just happened and then James Stewart I owe- I just felt like there was a little bit of a polite polish. The formality, you're right. And then a lot of my dad. Who is Ed Kemper. Right? That's another hometown murder story for a different day. Spoiler alert. What's next for Cameron Britton? Yeah. Oh, Girl In the Spider's Web comes out November 9th. Ooo. Clair Foy's the best. She's everything I'd hoped she'd be. And then, um, okay, so February 15th a new Netflix show called Umbrella Academy comes out. What's that about? That one is a comic book series, uh, brought to live action. Uh, Mary J. Blige and I play two assassins. Nice. Yes. Who, yeah… Give it to me now. It's me and Mary J. Blige traveling through time. What the fuck? And assassinating the good guys. Sorry, the two twins from The Shining are walking by. Did you win the lottery? Oh, they're so upset they have to leave. Oh my goodness. You have upset the twins from The Shining. Oh, I'm not playing with you forever and ever and ever. They're not there, what are you talking about? I don't see any twins from The Shining. Oh, my God, don't do that to everybody! Bye. And, you- you- there- we can't talk about whether or not you're on the next season of Mindhunter, but you- but you can tell us one thing about someone else who's on it. Yeah. Right? Uh, I, uh, found out that, uh, they'll have Charles Manson as an interview. You heard it here first. The- the same… Uh, yeah. The same, um, the same actor is actually playing Manson again in Tarantino's Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. So this guy is, like, so good at it. He's Australian. Whoa. And they got the makeup artist from The Darkest Hour, who just won an Academy Award, so this dude looks like Manson and then they'll cover the Atlanta Child Murderers. Wow. Creepy. Um, yeah, so you're gonna see Holden Ford l- not just, uh, do- do studies. He's gonna be in the field practicing and trying to actually catch bad guys and… And we're gonna see a little of that, uh, BTK, right? 'Cause that was- got- got laid in real subtle. My favorite thing was people who don't follow true crime and they would watch Mindhunter and they'd go, Who's the guy with the mustache? Really upset. And I'd be like, Mmm, it's BTK, I don't know. I knew it immediately, but whatever. Type in Wichita, Kansas and then serial killer and then go down another rabbit hole. Just keep going down those rabbit holes. Goodbye. When he got arrested, the- because he sent a floppy disk in in 2001… mm-hmm <affirmative>. Did you guys cover him? BTK? I think I did. A little bit. I can't remember. Did I? So, he- he sent in a floppy disk to the cops and he said, Do you- we- do you… Will you guys be able to pull up deleted files? And they said, No, we can't do that. And then they pulled up deleted files and they found him and they pulled him over and the cop said, uh, You know why I pulled you over? And Dennis Rader said, I have a pretty good idea. And- and that's the story. Oh, my God. What a creep! I cannot wait for Mindhunter and we were so… We thought of this, of having you, and then we were like, because it was truly, like, dream- the dream idea and the fact that you said, Yes, and that you're here with us tonight is so awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Absolutely. So exciting. Thank you, guys, so much. Cameron Britton, everybody! Cameron Britton! Thank you. Thank you. Great to meet you. I really appreciate it, thank you. Yeah. Yay, celebrities. <laugh> He went straight up in the air. Oh my God. He has a lot of ballet training. We have another guest. We have one more guest. It's very exciting. It's Josh Mankiewicz from Dateline. Josh Mankiewicz from Dateline. Come on out here, sir. Come on out. We have to rehearse our cues. We're not good at this. Look, it's Josh Mankiewicz from Dateline. Josh Mankiewicz from Dateline. <laugh> Hello. Hello. I think I stood up to fast. No, it was good. Here, come sit here, let's pull our chairs back a little. You know, if you work for Dateline you dream about one day sitting in the chair that Ed Kemper sat in. Yeah. Um… The voice, you guys. It's Josh Mankiewicz's voice. Okay, all I'm gonna tell you about the voice is that, uh, when I started in this business, which was before either of you were born, um, um, I worked for a different network. I will not identify that network, but its initials are ABC. Oh. Uh, and they sent me, because I had this voice, they sent me to something like $50 to $100,000 worth of voice coaching lessons. Whoa. To get me- to get me to sound like every other announcer on the radio. And I did my absolute best. Um, but I- I tried but it didn't work. This is a voice I went in with, this is the voice I came out with. I love it. We're glad. It works for us. Yeah. Ju- now, you guys, Dateline, um, you guys have followers that have a name for themselves, right? Uh, we, uh- we've- you mean like Murderinos? Well, yeah, don't- isn't- don't- aren't there Dateline heads or something? Dateline? Uh, there's a- there on Twitter there's a- there's a- there's a group called Dateline Divas. Yes, that's it. Yeah, there- maybe some of them here today. Sure. Um, yeah, it's a, uh, it's a big community. Not tremendously unlike this one. Uh, uh, devoted and, uh, and they know all the details of the stories. Like, people come up to me in airports and they inevitably say two things. One is, they say, uh, I was watching Murder at the Crossroads and I fell asleep. What happened? I I I… Oh my God. You're just supposed to tell the rest of the case. Clearly I've put millions of Americans to sleep. Uh, it's that… It's the voice. Yeah, and they're out. Um, and the other this is they- they say to me, something that they saw, not on Dateline, but where Dateline gets repurposed on ID or- or one of the other channels that it runs on. And they say… They talk about a murder from, like, six or seven years ago. They go, Okay, um, what happened? The- the guy who killed his wife… I'm like, I'm gonna need a little more than that. Yeah, um, and then eventually we figure it out, but… I always think, when you guys are interviewing, um… Likes, you know how, sometimes, you interview the husband because he's claimed to- that he's innocent, that whole thing. Like, have you ever had an experience where you're interviewing one of those people and it's, like, creeping you out or you have to take a break or, like… You know they're full of shit in some way. Well, frequently you know that they're full of shit. But- but, uh, which we can't really say on Dateline. Um, but, uh, you know, first of all, uh, frequently, by the time we're talking to someone who's the accused murderer, they're either the accused murder, or, by the time we're talking to him, they're the convicted murderer. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, but, you know we try and talk to everybody in the story and everybody gets their- gets their say. That doesn't mean that I don't get to poke holes in- in whatever their defense was. But usually, by the time people are sitting across from me, they are on their best behavior because they're trying to, you know, this is all a big conspiracy my- you know, my- my wife's family is out to get me. Uh, I'm really not guilty. So, usually, they're not scary. Now, there was a guy last year, uh, in Montana whose girlfriend disappeared and has not been found. Yeah, shout out to Montana. All those- all those places to hide a body. Um, yeah. Yeah. Congratulations. Um, uh, and she's never been found and we were speaking with him and he was locked up at this point. And, he got very angry that I was questioning his version of events and he started yelling at me. <unk:Gasp> And normally they're shackled and normally, like, if we're on camera, like, right there is some big corrections officer, but, in this case, they were sort of out in the hall. And he wasn't actually shackle and I thought to myself, this guy's gonna kick my ass. 'Cause he's a lot bigger than I am. And a lot younger. Um, but, then he, I think realized that that was, uh, not was not gonna be the preferred part of the correctional experience. And he- he did not. And he calmed down and then he you got up and left and then we got him to come back and, you know, um, it ended up- it worked out okay. But, no, I mean- Turns out he was innocent. Creeped out, no. And- and, uh, right. And afraid for my safety probably only that one time, but most of the time, like, you're talking to somebody and you either know or believe that the story they're telling you is not true. But, you know, you're sort of more interested in the give and take of the interview. Yeah, you know. It is great when they think they're getting away with lying or, like, that they really are, Look, I'm so smart, I'm gonna convince you. Is there a case that's either your favorite or least favorite or the one you get asked about the most? The one I get asked about all the time is the murder of Tom and Jackie Hawks, right here in Southern California, off the coast by Newport. Um… Right. By, uh, I'm sure you know this, many of you know this story. Um, I- uh, a guy wanted to steal their boat. Uh, they'd put it up for sale and he- he persuaded them to take them- to take him out on a- on a, essentially a test drive. He brought along a friend of his who was a gang member that he hired off some corner, I think in Long Beach, and they… Yeah, again, shout out to LBC. And, uh… They know. The LBC knows who they are. And, um, uh, and they took him to the Gap to dress him in a way that made him look inoffensive. Yes. Uh, the Gap's not, like, a sponsor of yours, or anything? Yeah, it is. Pick up some socks this week three for five. So- so they- so they took this gang member to the Gap and then the- the- the- these- these people let him on the boat and they ended up paying for it in a horrible way. Um, and that's the story I get asked about all the time. And all the people involved, um, uh, they're locked up now. Oh, that's good. Yeah, that's so creepy. I hate those ones that are the cold case ones. What was your first, uh, can you remember the first one that you ever reported on? The first- the first murder? Yeah. Uh, Brianna Dennison in- in Reno, Nevada. I'm still in touch with mom, all these years later. Really? Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, you- you- you end up, and if you're doing this, or at least if you're doing it right, you end up, sort of… Uh, you- staying in touch with these people in your life because you spend a lot of time with them over a very short period of time and you end up becoming very close to them sort of as you talk about their story, because you're talking about, you know, the- the things they're never gonna get over. And there's this- this myth that- that, uh, locking people up is somehow, you know, it makes everything okay for the families. It doesn't. And, you know, so you end up getting much closer to thee people then- then maybe otherwise might. And, so, yeah I'm still in touch with a lot of these people and that was- that was a, uh, that was a terrible story. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Amazing. Like, all of them. And that was in- that was in, I think, 2006 / 2007. By which time, I'd already been at Dateline ten years. But we didn't start doing true crime until then. Yeah. Wow. Do you want to plug anything? What's coming up next? Well, let's see, I may- I have like three or four things in production right now. But I don't know when they're gonna be on the air. Are any of them with Mary J. Blige? No, none of them. Okay. I can't say. Okay, okay. No, you're right. You're right. Yeah, that would be inappropriate. Uh, um, this Friday is a great story in, uh, South Carolina, it's reported by Andrea Canning. The story that took place, I think in 2013, uh, in, like, two or three different trials, uh, and, you know, the stories that- that… I mean, at Dateline we always try and, sort of, draw a line in between the story, which is extremely sad and the storytelling which can be kind of fun. And, I mean, we don't say, uh, Here's a story about a a guy who was accused of killing his wife but it turned out to be the next door neighbor, now stick around for 59 minutes. Yeah. Right? We- we draw it out, as you know. So, uh, the hardest stories to tell are the ones in which the obvious suspect ends up being the guilty party. This is not one of those stories. Oh. There's a bunch of different places to go with the narrative and Andrea Canning does a great job with it. So that's this Friday on Dateline. Awesome. Cool. <unk:applause> Well, we've been Twitter friends with you for so long, I'm so glad we finally got you on. I'm so thrilled to be here. Thank you so much. And, you know, I fly around the country all the time doing these stories and- and now when I fly around the country I'm listening to the two of you. Oh, huh! What! Come on! You guys! Amazing! Thank you for being here. Thank you. Josh Mankiewicz, everyone. Josh Mankiewicz from Dateline, everybody! Thank you. Thanks so much. Thank you so much. Thank you. Yes. Happy Halloween him off the stage. Oh my God. You guys, we did it. We Halloweened. You got… I can't believe what an incredible audience you guys have been. You were triple the size we're used to talking to you and you were twice as quiet as any… I mean… I- in my mind, I was backstage telling Georgia, I was just like, Look, they're gonna be talking the entire time. You have to get ready for that. You need to be prepared. That's all I do to her. We'll start by telling them to shut up and we'll yell at them. I bet the bar lines were really long and everyone couldn't get shit-faced. Oh, that's right. Is that what happened? You went from… There's people in the front row going, That's fucking right. You owe me four drinks. They spend all their drink money on parking. So, that's not enough money to… We get it. Yeah, that's right. We owe you one. We should have snuck you a Coors Light. That's right. Dammit. So sorry. Um… You can go to the Yard House, all our friends are there. Um, so we really did start talking and became friends at this Halloween party and I- and we had talked all night and we were like let's meet for lunch I wanna talk to you more. We were talking about true crime and we met and talked for five hours at Cafe 101, you guys know that place. And they… They let you sit there for five hour and just keep drinking coffee. It's pretty chill. And, a little while later, I think, I texted you, Do you want to start a true crime podcast with me? 'Cause all I wanted to do was keep talking to Karen about true crime because I hadn't met anyone who was excited to talk about theories and favorite cases and, you know, all this horrible things- these things that happen that are so awful, but I felt like I could talk to her about it. So we started this podcast in my old, little apartment in, uh… 2016. Yeah, and little, and, uh, yeah, in Little Armenia and, n-now… In real Armenia. Yeah. It was- It was hard. a war-torn summer. And now, uh, we're downtown at the Microsoft Theater doing the largest fucking live podcast ever and I can't believe it. Unbelievable. Honestly, I- I'm blown away, we're so fucking honored and thrilled to be here and appreciate you guys so much showing up on Halloween and supporting us with this whole thing. It's incredible. We do, uh, spend a lot of time, uh, sp- in between trying to answer emails quickly, um, we spend a lot of time staring at each other going, What the fuck is going on? Um, and you guys have basically giving us this humongous gift. For some reason, it's like you were all just sitting there waiting f- for to have this conversation with us and you were there from day one. You've turned out, show after show, um, everything we- everything we do, you're so supportive and you're also creating communities with each other. And it is such a powerful thing to watch all of these people come together under the guise of true crime and actual raise money and make friends and deal with anxiety and do stuff that's such a hard thing to do alone and now you're not alone anymore. It's the fucking coolest thing. Yeah. And you're doing it. You guys are doing it for each other. Yeah. Thank you guys- It's amazing. for letting us do this. This is our dream job, thank you for being here and, uh… And we have to thank, um- Right. -we have to thank the Microsoft Theater, they made us a fuckin' rug among other things. Made us a rug. THey're so supportive and excited. There's a lot of, apparently, we- we've been told, Murderinos that work here, which is the coolest thing. Yeah. Uh, but we also have to thank our agent Joe Swartz. The first year of touring goes, What if you did a live show on Halloween. And we're like, Shut up. And, um, and then he was like, How about the Microsoft, 7,000 people. And we're like, Shut up. No, we were like no. No one will come. Why are you trying to set us up for failure all the time? Um. But he- but he did it. He convinced us to do it and you guys sold it out and, so, thank you Joe Swartz for letting us sass you constantly and for setting us these tours and these live shows. And thanks, you guys, for buying these tickets and making it a thing. We're so thrilled. That's right. Thank you- We're so thrilled. Stephen and to Vince for supporting us. Yes. I love it. Thanks you guys. Stay sexy. And? Don't get murdered. Bye! Bye! Thank you. 

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+Hey everyone, I'm Meg Tietz, and this is Sorta Awesome… Hello and welcome back, Awesomes. You are listening to the show that is all about helping you be smart, strong, and social. We are in your earbuds every single week with all the awesome that you need to know. And you can also find us on Instagram at Sorta Awesome Show, or come find us over on Facebook in our Sorta Awesome hangout group. You are listening to Episode 169 of the show. And Holy moly, believe it or not, it is November 2018, my friends. And we know that it's that time of year when many of our awesomes are making their lists, and checking them twice, and searching for the perfect gifts for the holiday season. Just a very quick reminder that if you are already doing some shopping over on Amazon, now through the holidays, we would super appreciate it if you would go on over to SortaAwesomeShow.com/Awesome to do your shopping. That is our affiliate link. It will take you right to Amazon's homepage, just like usual, but all of the purchases you make through our affiliate link will support the work that we are doing here at Sorta Awesome. This is a super easy way to support sort of awesome, and it costs you literally nothing. So once again, when you are shopping Amazon this holiday season, the way to support Sorta Awesome with your shopping is by going to SortaAwesomeShow.com/Amazon. Awesomes, I am so excited for our newest sponsor Dignify. Dignify has been an awesome of mine for literally years. Dignify is an online store, and they still kantha blankets. They're one of a kind hand stitched throws and blankets made from beautiful vibrant saris. The women who make these blankets in Bangladesh were previously living on the street in dangerous, vulnerable situations. Now, they're employed in a job that safe, loving, healthy, and sustainable. I myself, have two Dignify blankets, and I absolutely love them. I cannot even explain how cozy they are. And to this day, my family fights over who gets to snuggle with the Dignify blankets. So, if you are looking for the perfect gift for someone in your life, like a mom, or a mother in law, your sister, your daughter, a best friend. A Dignify throw is so meaningful. There's such a beautiful message of redemption in these, and the blankets themselves are versatile and gorgeous. You can browse through all of Dignify's blankets at ShopDignify.com, and Shelley at dignify wants to give you awesomes a very awesome 10% discount to use for the rest of this year. Use code Awesome at checkout for 10% off at ShopDignify.com. That's awesome for 10% off at ShopDignify.com. So yes, this is Episode 169, and I am just doubly delighted about this episode because I have both of my very dear friends, and completely amazing co-hosts here with me today. First of all, hello to ms Rebecca Hoffer of SimplyRebecca.com. Hello. And of course, I have everyone's favorite big sister, the one that we wish we all had, Kelly Gordon. Hi, Kelly. Hey Meg. Hey awesomes. All right. Well, although you all know that for over three years we have been really known for focusing on the awesome in the everyday. You guys know that occasionally we do dip into our grouchier sides, we tap into the grouchy that even the awesomes have <laugh>. And we talk about the things that are just irritating us a little. And so, buckle up, you guys. Because that's what we're doing this week. We have each brought our lists of, um, sort of pet peeves. The things that make us say, Okay, can we not? Can we just not do this thing? Can we just not act this way, please? Because we're trying to have a society here, folks. So, we want to bring it into these things, and we are going to share our lists of Can we not? with you here in just a few minutes. We're going to get to all of that, but first, let's do start this show on a positive note <laugh>, the way we always do <laugh> with our awesomes of the week. It's the moment in the show where we share with you all about the, the podcast, the music, the movies, the TV shows, the products, whatever it is that is making life a little bit more awesome in our lives right now. So, uh, Kelly, how about you get us started off with awesome of the week this week? Okay. So awesomes, I'm actually bringing you an audio series that you can sign up for right now. And the reason I have to tell you about it right now is it is for the holidays. Okay? So, we're recording this. It's the very end of October. We're entering into November and December, and we know that there's a big push there. So, one of my internet friends, she's an author, her name is Michelle DeRusha, and she is putting together a audio series for the month of November. She released the last one just this last Sunday. It's going to come out every Sunday. It's called Practicing Presence: Preparing Your Heart, Mind, and Soul For The Holidays. And here's why I'm recommending it, you guys. It's because I feel like Michelle, and this is why we're internet friends, she is a kindred spirit to me. I have been frank before on the show about the holidays not being my favorite thing. Right, yes. mm-hmm <affirmative> <laugh>. Um, Because- Right. Yes, we remember. so, the, yeah, we're, we're already… Look now, we were positive, and now we're negative again. <laugh>. Boom, boom. Um, they overwhelm me. And I don't think I'm alone in that. That's the thing. It's even people who love Christmas, it is a lot. Right? It is a lot. Yes, yes. And it feels like it's a push. Like you almost, as much as you, you think, Next year, I'm going to do this differently. You just get- Every year, yep. swept along in this tidal wave of excess. And so, Michelle is saying, Hey, I get this. It is really hard for us to retrain our brains to say, Wait a minute, I, I don't even believe that that's the point of the holiday. You know, I want to be present for my life and choose some simpler things, you know? So, that's why she's doing this audio series. To help us kind of prep ourselves before we go into, especially December and all of its chaos and craziness, um, to practice presence, and be here, and say, No, wait, let's just take a month, a few weeks before we even get to Thanksgiving and say, what would it look like for the holidays if we weren't elf on the shelfing, and socializing, and feeling so pushed into all of these stuff? Um, so, we want to enjoy the holidays, right? Yes. I just think this is going to be… Obviously I can't recommend it in the sense that I have listened to the whole series yet, but I, I trust Michelle, and I've listened to the intro, and I'm like, Oh, this is going to be so good. I really think it could help so many awesomes. I'm sure we could all talk about it in the hangout after we listen- mm-hmm <affirmative>. and say, Hey, here's what I learned. I feel like this is what I need this time of the year. So, that's why it's my awesome of the week. Thank you for that, Kelly. This is the perfect time of the year. I have to tell you that even here, in the beginning of November, I'm already having like some tension- Yes. come to the surface. Like, Oh my gosh. How did this happen in my life that I'm already feeling tense in the beginning of November? So, this is perfect timing to really get the mindset- Right. set- Right. before we get onto the roller coaster that we know it will be <laugh>. Yeah, and I think it really takes intentionality. And that's why I wanted to raise it to the awesomes. Is that for us to fight this big… Like I said, it's like a tsunami that just comes along. Like we can't resist it hardly. We have to be so intentional. So, I think that prepping ourselves, and then maybe having some acuity saying, Hey, we can do this, we can do this. It's going to change the holiday season for the better. And where do you find this again? Yes, good question. So yes, you can sign up for it. Of course, we'll put a link in our show notes. Um, but it's called Practicing Presence: Preparing Your Heart, Mind, and Soul For The Holidays. I don't think it's a, a podcast, like something you can subscribe to. She's going to send out an email link, um, every weekend- Oh, perfect. So that you can just listen to it. mm-hmm <affirmative>, perfect. Thank you. We will definitely have a link where you all can find that. And I will be chief amongst those signing up for sure. So, thank you for that, Kelly. All right. Rebecca, what do you have this week? Guys, I am like bursting to talk to you guys. Bursting with excitement. This awesome of the week, it's so good. Okay <laugh>. I'm bringing to you <laugh>. I'm, I'm also maybe just like a little bit dramatic. That's like my personality. <laugh>. That's how we love you. Yes. Okay. So, I'm bringing to you a TV series, uh, originally airing on TV Land and Paramount. I found it on Hulu. It is called Younger, and it is amazing. Okay, tell us all about it. Oh my goodness, oh my goodness. Okay. So, I first started watching it this summer. And I have to admit, when I was watching season one, I was kind of like, Well, this is like fun. It's like a good, like, light thing to watch. Like, maybe while I'm doing something else, or at the end of the day. It's definitely not heavy. It's more of like a, like a kind of romantic comedy type of feel to it. Like a sitcom, okay? And I just, I watched all of season one, but then I kind of, in season two, I kinda like drifted off. And then I heard some people talking about again, and I was like, Well, I'm going to go back to this, and like watch it some more. Well, Yeah. by the end of season two, I just fell in love with the characters. And then by the end of season three, I was like, Whoa, I am invested. So, here's the premise of the show. It is about a woman named Liza, who has discovered that her husband is having an affair. So, she's freshly divorced, she's moving to New York City, she's trying to get a fresh start. Her daughter is in college. She needs money, right? To like help put her daughter through college. And so, she goes back to her roots. She previously had been working in publishing, and she's like, I need to get the job. I'm going to go back to publishing after spending years and years at home as a stay at home mom. I can do this. Well, she keeps getting the door turned in her face because everybody says, Well, you're too experienced for this entry level position. You've been away from the game for too long. Basically feeling like she's too old to get a job, and she's like, Listen, I don't, I don't care that you think I'm like too old for this. Okay? <laugh> right. She's 40. Yes. Right? She's 40. Ah. So she's like- <crosstalk> I know I'm <crosstalk> <laugh>. I'm just gonna take a moment. Hang on. Hey, she might be, she might be 42 <laugh>. Does that help? No, I'm still highly offended, but keep going. No, it doesn't really help. Yes, but keep going. <laugh>. Okay. So, she's having a very hard time getting a job. She's in a bar, and this, ah, tall glass of a man walks in <laugh> is that the phrase? I don't know. I think I might've messed that up. This handsome, young whippersnapper. Okay? He's in his 20's. He walks up to her, confuses her for 26, and she's like- Mmm. Okay, whatever. She just goes for it, just for fun. Okay? So, she's like flirting with this guy. His name is Josh. Anyway, her girlfriend is like, Hey, you could pass for being in your 20s. You should just lie on your resume and go and try to get a job, and say that you're out of college, you're in your 20s, and then they'll let you in. So, she does it. It works. Okay? Oh my. Yeah. And then the premise is that she is living this younger life. Ah. Okay. And she has to keep up these lies. She like changes her appearance to try to fit in with millennials. Um, it's really, it's really fun. But- Yeah. The guy, Josh, ends up being like a key figure in her life. And there's a spark there. I mean, I'm not gonna say too much, but guys, it is just such a fun show to watch. And I have to say though, this might be a little bit spoilery, but as her lie becomes uncovered by more and more people, that's where I find the real interesting parts of the show coming forth for me. Like I felt like season one was kinda like all cutesy about the lie. But then like, as more people are finding out and developing, um, you know, feelings about like, Well, what does it mean to be in relationship with somebody who is divorced with a college student child, and I'm in my 20s with no kids? Like, what does that mean? That's where the real interesting part is for me, is um, living, living without the lie. So, there are five seasons on Hulu. Season Six is supposed to be coming this upcoming summer. So, you have plenty of time to binge it all now and get ready- Oh my, yes. for season six this summer. It's a really fun show. So great. I haven't heard of this, but I love the concept. I love the whole premise of it. That sounds like a lot of fun for sure. How long are the episodes? Are they hour long, or half an hour? So, the episodes are half an hour long episodes. So, they're going to run into the 20 to 30 minute- Perfect. range. Oh yeah, perfect. Perfect. Alright Rebecca, thank you. For anybody who is needing to tuck in with a new binge watch as the weather gets cooler. That sounds ideal. Yes. Perfect. So awesome. Younger on Hulu. Okay. All right. Well, my awesome of this week, my awesome of the week, this week is, interestingly enough <laugh>, from a company that I just mentioned on the show that we ran last week that we recorded at the end of 2016 <laugh>. So apparently, I really love this company because I'm still using products from this company. Um, so, last week I was talking about Alaffia's African Black Soap. That was something that I was into, and we do definitely still use that, and love that around our house. This time, I wanted to tell you about two products that that company, Alaffia, has for children, for kids bath products. In fact, honestly, even grown ups can use these too. The first one is the, um, shampoo and body wash for kids. And one thing, and I mentioned this last week, but one thing that I super, super love about this company, and I don't know if I'm saying it right or not. It could be Alaffia, it could be a Alaffia. I don't know. But I'm going with Alaffia <laugh>. It this like Penelope? Yep, pretty much on the same line as Penelope. <crosstalk> Penelope, Penelope. <laugh>. Yep, except, except Penelope is Rob. <laugh>. Yes, that's true. Thanks, Rebecca. Less you have forgotten <inaudible> <laugh>. Um, okay. One thing I love about this shampoo and body wash and that I love about this company. Let me just back up and say, the thing I love the most about this company is that it was created to provide, um, not only beauty, but also really, um, empower women and families in West Africa through creating the skincare line. It's the whole line is all ethical products. And not only are their products ethical, but the way they do business is highly ethical too. So, they're all about equality. They're all about empowerment. When you shop from this company, part of your support of the company goes to everything from like buying school supplies for kids, to maternal care, to even like eyeglasses, and reforestation projects. They have so many great things going on in the communities where they are. So, that's the number one��� You know, like, you guys, sometimes things feel pretty terrible in our world. <laugh>. We not only know what's happening that's difficult, or heartbreaking on a local level, but we are, you know, we're made aware of things all around the world. In our own country, and all around the world that are difficult. So, anytime… I feel like anytime we can use our dollars, our actual dollars to support good things in the world, I think that is so fantastic. So, I love shopping from this company. But their shampoo and body wash, I tend to be one of those people who I'm pretty particular about the products I use for my kids. And so, I love that their, their line is so safe for all skin types. Um, the shampoo and body wash washes out super clean. It does have shea butter in it. So, it's so nourishing. All of my kids. My husband and all of my kids struggle with dry skin all throughout the winter. So, I'm always looking for products to kind of help nourish their skin, um, but you know, sometimes the flip side of that is that it can take a long time to rinse off, or rinse out, which is fine for a normal adult, or even for a teenager, but for five year old boys <laugh>, that you're trying to run in and out of the bathtub, and they have their own ideas about what bath time should be about, and you're just like, you want to get… They hate… My twins especially hate having their hair washed. So, I really appreciate the fact that this is really clean rinsing. I love the lemon lavender sent. And speaking of lavender scent, the other thing I wanted to tell you about, because this is a fantastic product no matter what age you are, is that they also make a wonderful bubble bath that has the shea butter and also yam leaf. It is perfect for normal to very dry skin. And I love a good soak in a bubble bath. We are big bubble bath people here. We have this… My gosh. We have, um, an antique clawfoot tub, which is beautiful to look at, and wonderful to soak in. But I will tell you, it is a nightmare to clean under. So, <laugh> if you've ever dreamed about having one, let me first your bubble a little bit. They're kind of a nightmare. But since we have one, we do indulge in bubble baths a lot around here. Anyway, I find a lot of bubble baths… Just commercial ones that you get off the shelf at the pharmacy can be a little bit hard on your skin. And so, we have loved this. It is genuinely so nourishing. It foams up beautifully, makes wonderful bubbles, makes bath time a lot of fun. 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All right, like I said at the top of the show, this is one of those episodes where we kind of dig deep within our very souls and say, You know, sometimes things are awesome. Sometimes things are really, irritating and annoying, and we just want to get it out in the open, and maybe we can by way… By talking about it, maybe we can, you know, just connect with you guys about some of these pet peeves, and maybe some of us will even change our ways. Who knows? Probably me <laugh>. The person who now it does her recycling every single week <laugh>. Good job. Bravo. Yep, gold star. Bravo. A call back to confession I made years ago. I actually fixed my own self for that. So. Okay. So, we have some, uh, some… A list of things. Each of us have lists here that we want to talk about. Things that we're just like, Can we not? Can we not do that? Kelly, I feel like I've actually heard you say this phrase, Can we not? in real life conversations <laugh>- Yeah. so many times. So, I would love for you to get us started. Right. And really, here, here's the thing that my take on this is that awesomes I think almost every single thing we say here probably is going to resonate with you. I think that our, our take on this is that we're not just saying, This is my own pet peeve. I feel like everybody is saying this. So, I will tell you my first Can we not? It is can we not s, do sleep overs? Oh goodness. Why are sleep overs a thing? Yeah. This is what I want to know. I really don't know a ton of parents who are, I love sleep overs. I want to host them all the time. I do know a few who are like, Eh, whatever, like whatever. But I don't know a single parent who loves sleep overs. For most parents, we say, Wait a minute, so I either get to host, or send my child. They're going to stay up too late, eat crap food. Who knows what happens. Unless you as the parent want to supervise, how many of us, raise of hands right now, remember a sleep over that they went to in their teen years, or even earlier, and did stuff, or watched stuff they shouldn't have watched. Oh my gosh. Like every movie that I was never supposed to watch. Yes, exactly. Rebecca and I were just talking about happened at somebody's else at asleep over. Yes. <crosstalk> and when I was listening to that episode, I thought that exact thing. Same thing. <laugh>. See, see what sleep overs do? Yeah, I gotten to… I mean, I was a pretty good kid, but if I was going to get into trouble and do things I wasn't supposed to, it was definitely happening at somebody's house at asleep over. Right. And I feel like parents today, we, maybe we… I don't know if we're just more protective, or we know more. So, I know a lot of us are like, okay, like, I, I'm not just leaving, I'm not going to go to bed at 11 and be like, Okay, well, have fun, <laugh> you know? Yeah. And just leave this gaggle of kids unsupervised. Um, as did happen to my teenage years. But I also feel like even if you're not hosting, so if you are hosting, A, you've got responsibility of all these kids. Today, they have cell phones. Hmm. mm-hmm <affirmative>. That creates a lot of other stress. Are you gonna let them have their cell phones on. Yes. Oh, I'm going to call my mom Okay, so now they've got, you know, technology, um, that can also needs to be supervised. Um, even if you're not hosting and having to deal with all of that, you get back a grumpy kid the next day. Yes, yes. They come home sleep deprived. Your house isn't as fun as that house where they were with friends. I just see, I see no good thing in sleep overs. Um, I really, I don't see a redeeming value. I always say to my kids, We do allow sleep overs. Some, you know, it just depends on if it's a family that we know really well. If it's a cousin. Um, but for the most part, I'm like, all the fun stuff, especially if you're younger, you know, you're in elementary school still, is really happening before you go to bed. Yep. So it's like, I've fine coming to pick you up at 10, and having you sleep in your own bed, and then you wake up in our own house, and you know, you c, I just… Because also, especially at that age, they wake up in the middle of the night and they're a little freaked out. Like they're not at home. Right. You know, even if they're with- Yes. a really good friend, um- Yeah. so, my sister, my daughter has stayed at my sister's house, and you know, has had my daughter wake her up in the middle the night and be like, I'm scared. You know, so you know, now you're not just dealing with your own kids waking you up. You have strangers waking you up. <laugh>. Why are we doing this? Well, not strangers, but you know. <laugh> Kids that you don't have prime responsibility for. So yeah, I see no good things. That would be something. If I could make a decree in culture, and say, Why is this a thing? Can we not do sleep overs? I, I feel like this stay late type of party is, is like new- mm-hmm <affirmative>. and fun, and I think it should take over. I think it's a brilliant idea. I agree. Have everybody come over in pajamas. Yep. Yes. Stay super late. But then everybody go home, and then you can sleep in. And then you can sleep in. Right. Yes. And they will sleep in their own beds instead of waking up at like five in the morning. Yes. Yes. Yeah, we started actually doing that. We don't do, um, Saturday sleep overs anymore because we have to be at church really early on Sunday mornings. And I was just like, No, I am not going to, I'm not going to set myself up for a miserable Sunday because you stayed up until two or three in the morning. So, we've started doing that. If, if our daughters get invited to sleep overs on Saturday nights, I'm like, Well, you know our rule. Yes, you can go, and I will come pick you up at 10. And so far it's working out okay. Okay. Rebecca, what's on the top of your can we not list? Okay, I think this is probably on the top of every woman's can you not list. Can you not ask me if I am pregnant? <laugh>. Yes. Ask, wait- Yes. ask if you're pregnant? Yeah. I thought that was like, people still do that? Oh, yeah. People still do this. It's like absurd that this is something that is happening. My vote. Okay, so I, I was at this, I was at my mom's group last week, and there was a mom who I don't really know. Okay? But she was sitting at my table, and she was very pregnant. Okay? And I went to talk to her, and ask her about having another baby, and as the words were coming out of my mouth, I started like cringing, like, Oh, Rebecca, but what if she's not? Oh no. I'm doing it. I'm doing it right now <laugh>. But what if she's not? Okay. Well, it turns out, guys, she was two weeks from her due date. Like she was like a very, very pregnant. <crosstalk> It was so obvious, but my general rule of thumb here is unless- Yes. you see the baby crowning, you- yes. do not ask. <laugh>. That is exactly what I've told my husband, and what he now tells young people entering the workforce. You know, like as far as when he's mentoring somebody, or an employee. He's like, This is the rule. Unless you are delivering the baby, you don't mention it. Unless they mentioned it first, <laugh>. Right, yes, of course, of course. Okay. So, when I was working in an office, okay? I was young, I was just out of college. Okay? And there was an intern who came into the office. Well, she came into the office like, I don't know, she was like five or six months pregnant, but I didn't know until we like through a baby shower. I never said anything because I was like, Well, I don't know what she looks like not pregnant. Like I started- Sure. to get suspicious. I was like- Sure, sure. Yeah. well, actually, maybe, is she's pregnant? But I was, there was no way I was going to ask because I, I had never- Right. seen her before. Well, they were like, Yes, Rebecca. How did you not know that she was pregnant? I was like, Well, I wasn't gonna ask her. Um- Yeah. So, here's, here's the thing, there's like a medical condition that can cause some women to actually physically look like they are more, like that they are with child. It is called diastasis recti, and it is the separation of the ab muscles. This usually happens after a pregnancy. So, your ab muscles get like all stretched out, and then they can, they can actually separate, and then not close back up. And you know, usually they're closing back up, but then this condition can happen where they don't close, and so then like all of your insides are kind of more loosey-goosey because you don't have that tight gate holding everything back. So, for some women, there's actually like a medical reason why they have more of a pregnancy looking pooch. mm-hmm <affirmative>. I would say for maybe like the vast majority of every other women out there, uh, this might be a newsflash to some people, but most women don't have flat abs to begin with. <laugh> And just because we are over 25, or whatever, that doesn't mean how we are with child. So, just don't ask. And I will take this one step further. Okay. Even if you are suspecting that someone might be pregnant, and it is not because of how they physically look, but you have like, just some other reason why. Maybe they're a friend, maybe they're a relative, whatever. But they haven't said anything to you about it yet, but you're suspecting. And so, you finally are like, I'm going to ask, are you pregnant. Okay. I would also say, don't do that. And here's why. Okay? Because you put them in an awkward position. Let's say that they were pregnant. They've chosen not to tell you, and that's for some reason that they haven't told you. Yes, yeah. So, you now have put them in the position where they have to, uh, decide to tell you the truth, perhaps before they were ready to share the news, or they have to lie. And I would say that both of those circumstances have the potential to make the other person feel uncomfortable. And if the answer is no, it could be something that they are able to simply brush off. Well no, I'm not pregnant. I just had an upset stomach, or whatever. You know like, it could be a simple note that they brush off, or it could be a really sensitive subject. Yes. Like you just don't know what is going on with somebody's body. And I just don't think you should ask. Can we not? Please. Yeah, yeah. yes, I say put it on a ballot. We will get that passed, we will make that some sort of an offense. Yes, I agree. Jail time. Just in time for the midterms. <crosstalk> Let's put it on a ballot. Jail time? <laugh>. Jail time. Or you know, you have to go clean up what placentas, or something. You know, we're gonna, we're gonna make them to work <laugh>. Okay. But I will say that this is something that should be punishable because it, it can really mess with the psyche of a woman to be asked in any of these circumstances. Whatever it is, I, I think you, you c, poll women who have been asked wrongly if they are pregnant, and I think they will all tell you 100% that it put them in some sort of negative mental space. It's just not a smart thing to do. Yeah. I'm glad you got that off your chest. Me too. Goodness sakes. <laugh>. Feel better already. I, I, I maybe have in the past done this. Okay? I'm just gonna say that. Before I was made aware of the implications, but I have. This is one thing I've learned my lesson on. There is a teacher at our kids' school that I've seen. I've known her for years. She's one of AJ's early childhood teachers. And I've seen her everyday at pickup, and through, as the school year has gone on, I thought, Huh, <inaudible> she looks like she could be pregnant. But I stopped myself. I did not ask her a single thing about it. I did pull AJ aside and say, Is <inaudible> having a baby? And she's like, Yeah, of course she is. Can't you to tell? <laugh>. But I was proud of myself because I did not go ahead and do the in, my instinct, which was to say, Oh my gosh. You're having another baby. <laugh>. Yep. Good job. So, yes, proud of myself. One thing I've done right <laugh>. You've done plenty right in your life, Meg. Okay. My first thing that I want to ask if we cannot do this anymore. Now, this might be controversial because… Now, I do agree with Kelly that most of these things people are going to be like, Yeah, can we not do this? This one, maybe some people like it. Apparently they do because it's in all of the stores, and all of the malls everywhere, and that is ripped up, distressed denim. Mmm. Mmm. You guys, I'm so tired of seeing ripped up… Even if you're wearing ripped up jeans right now <laugh>. Not currently. Well, I'm not going to tell you if they are. You have some? <laugh>. No, I mean, definitely I have. I definitely have some mildly distressed denim. Yeah. I'm not wearing at the moment, but I know what you're saying. And I, I think <crosstalk> that it's, it's like you don't have a choice these days if you're gonna buy something denim- Oh, no. you have to have some distressing on it. You can't just buy a completely nice pair jeans. I know. Thank you. Now, when Allison Alison Lumbatis was on back in August telling us about the fall trends, she mentioned this. She has a very positive take on it. I understand that some people like it. I'm talking about the… Not even just like a little distress, but like the knees are like all ripped out. It, I don't know. I don't know. I, I know that denim trends come and go. I feel like this one has stayed around for a needlessly long amount of time. Like it's okay, we can let go of this trend now. Um, I try to be open minded about trends in denim. For example, when mom jeans came into style. No. It's like- No. it's like, Why is this a thing? I, you guys, speaking of mom jeans, <laugh> let's take a trip down memory lane. I, I can't. I was thinking about this. I hadn't thought about this at a long time, but as we were getting ready for this show, I know I can remember the exact moment in time where I was in, in my life when I realized, as a teenager, that the jeans I had been wearing my whole life, which now would be called mom jeans, which had the high waistband. Um, that they were going out of style. You know, some people can remember like, where they were when the president was shot, or you know, like these major things. I can remember where I was when I realized, Oh my gosh, the jeans I'm wearing are out of style <laugh>. That's funny. In the 90's, we were on a youth group trip. We were in Fort Worth, I feel like, in a hotel room, and the girl I was rooming with, we were getting dressed to go to a thing at this youth group event, youth group conference. She said, I'm really liking how all of my jeans now come down just a little bit below my belly button. And I was like, What? That's the thing? Like your jeans are like below your belly button? That was the beginning of the trend of our waist bands getting lower, and lower, and lower, which would to be streamlined. Was she trying to send you a message? I think she was. She was a very sweet girl, but I think she was trying to tell me like, Girl, your waistband too high. <laugh>. But it wasn't just the high waistband of mom jeans of your. Right. You know, it was like they were yoked. Do you remember yolks in j… Like they have this little V in the front with little extra fabric. Oh yeah. It was part of the cleat trend. Cleats. Yes. With these, you know, sometimes denim had cleats, but it was also where the pockets were placed in the back. You know, they just weren't very flattering. Well, those pockets are back in these mom jeans, and I just don't- I know. like of today. You know, I, almost one that almost made my list was the constant changing of trends. And I know that that can be kind of like fun. Like, um, I mean, praise the lord, we're not all still living in the 80's. But the pressure that comes with it, Oh, right, right, right. the pressure that can come with like feeling the need to adopt some of these. Adapt? Yeah, adopt. I think adopt is the right word. Adopt, or adapt to? Yeah, you can adapt <crosstalk> them to your own style. See it works either way. But what you're saying, I mean, we've seen these pictures of jeans where they basically have more holes than actual denim. Yes. Okay, yes. Yes, thank you for getting me back on track. Yeah, so the distress… Like the ultra distress. I'm like, What is the point? It triggers me. It makes me remember like when I was a kid <laugh> <crosstalk> you can tell I hang out, I hang out with teenagers a lot. So. <laugh>. I'm so triggered right now. I know. It's so triggering. This distressed jeans, but it reminds me of when I was younger, and if you ripped the knee out of your jeans, like you either, either those jeans were done, or your mom was gonna sow an ugly denim patch on them, and make you keep wearing them. And now, I see… And people are… You pay good money, good money for jeans that <inaudible> knees are torn out of? I don't know. I'm over it. I wonder if we can maybe, possibly not hang on to the distressed denim trend. This is very cathartic. I'm enjoying this <laugh>. Me too. I'm just… If, you're right. If there are some, if there are any awesomes out there who were like, Okay mema. <laugh>. I think they are. Yes, definitely. Definitely they are like, Okay. I, I fully embrace the fact that this is a total, Kids, get off my lawn moment for me. I get it, but I, I truly can we not. Hey awesomes, as you know, here at Sorta Awesome we are always talking about how to make life a little bit more simple, and a little bit more awesome through things that are super convenient, and one of those ways is by doing a lot of your shopping online, but what are the most stressful things about shopping online is trying to price match and figure out in this whole wide world of choices if you're getting the best price. That's why I super love being a VIP member at Grove. Because as a VIP member, I have price matching. So, I know I'm getting the best deal out there. Grove also makes it super easy to switch to natural products. You guys, if you haven't already tried Grove, you're going to love it. They back all of their customers with a 100% happiness guarantee, and for a very limited time, you awesomes who sign up are going to get an amazing $30 gift set, a free 60 day VIP membership, and a bonus gift just for you when you sign up in place an order of $20 or more. Checkout Grove and our special offer just for the awesomes at Groove.co/awesome. That's Grove dot C-O, not dot com. Slash awesome. Because of Grove, It's easy to have a happy, healthy, and awesome home. Okay. Kelly, what's next on your list? Okay. Oh my gosh. You guys, this one, I am so glad I get to talk about it because I have so many big feelings. So many. My kids are so tired of listening to be say this. <laugh>. It has to do with traffic, and the- Okay. not just an optional way to merge. The correct way to merge. Ooh. When you have to merge two lanes into one, or you know, s, even more, three, three into one, whatever. This is… We're talking about freeway merging here. I'm not talking about like when you're just getting on the freeway. We're talking about when there's construction, or there's an accident. And there's a sign that says, Merge ahead. Yes, yes. When you see that sine, <crosstalk> you don't merge then, people. That's not when the merge is. Okay, so s- That's absolutely when you merge. That's totally- <crosstalk> No, no. That is what has been done for years, and years, and years, and most of American society is that we want to be seen as selfless, and we want other people to go, and we see the sign, and we say, We are good. I'm a good student. I got A's in school. I will merge now merge now. Merge ahead? I will merge early. <laugh>. You know what happens when you have two miles before the merge, and everybody merges into the one lane? You have a long, slow line of traffic that has helped no one. So, science has actually done studies on this, and they said, there's an actual word for it, if you're in some states, you will know this word because there are actual transportation education things going on in the states called zipper merge. The thing being that everybody should stay in the lanes. If there's two lanes, if there's three lanes. Two lanes, let's just say, and you get up to the front, and then you take turns. Boom, boom. Boom, boom. Boo, boom. Like the teeth in a zipper. It actually makes… No, no it makes <crosstalk> traffic go faster, nobody has to wait, nobody's zips to the front, and, and, you know, gets in at the last moment, and everybody's taking their turn. You're using all the available space that's available to you until it's not. And so, it creates less road rage. It actually is faster through the emerge. Like, you know, to get everybody through there, and it's fewer accidents. So, science has unequivocally said, This is the way to merge. And there's just a whole bunch of people, and Meg might be one of them. The look that she's giving me right now, who is like I cannot, <crosstalk> I cannot. I feel selfish. It's wrong. People, get over it. This is the way we should do it. You just stay in your lane. You stay whether right or left, when you get there, you take turns. Boop, boop. Boop, boop. Zipper merge. Do it, America. It is not surprising me at all that the obliger in this group is having a very hard time with the words that you're saying. I'm like, I'm like, I'm about to get a stroke. I cannot believe it. Um, okay. So, here's, here's my issue then, Kelly. Here's my counterpoint. Because obviously the people, the good people of Oklahoma don't- <laugh>. understand what- No. Most, most of the good people of most states in these fine United States do not understand this. That is why there's literally education campaigns going on <laugh>. Okay, I'm, I, listen, I will. I am a progressive person. I will sit and listen, and allow myself to be educated in this moment <laugh>. But here's what drives me crazy. Since we don't already understand what zipper merging is. I didn't know that term until today. So thank you. Um, what happens is people like me are like, Oh mer, merge ahead. Well, I better get over. So, we do have the long line, and then you know who is flying by and going right up to the very last minute, and then merging? The people who know about zipper merging. <laugh>. That's the word I was going to use, but- But maybe you were going to use the word that we can use on out air. You're right. Yeah. <laugh>. Those people are flying to the head of the line in a ti… It creates road rage in me- Yes. when… And I'm not a rageful person, generally speaking. But when I see people doing that, I'm like, How dare you? I've been doing the right citizen thing here. <crosstalk> But it's not right. The next time you encounter one of these merging situations, Meg, you should, you should try going to the head and see like, which feels better because waiting in the line is making you all road ragey and angry. Maybe, maybe being the daredevil that zips to the front will, will be a thrill that <crosstalk> you've been needing in your life. I actually have stories about this. So, before, in Minnesota… Now, like I said, there's actual education stuff going on with, um, the Minnesota Department of Transportation to make sure people know about this. There are commercials, there are PSAs, they have, um, signs next to the road. Way long time ago, 10 years ago, we were on a freeway. It was a two lane freeway, it was 35. So, interstate 35, which goes all the way from Texas up to, you know, Canada. Um, they were h, they had a lane that was going to be shut down. Seven miles before the merge, they put out signs that said, Merge ahead. Oh, Wow. Okay? Now, this is, uh, interstate. A lot of it is trucks. We come- Yes. from California. We'd only been back in Minnesota a couple of years. No one, I mean, you know, you just don't have that. Few cars on the road. But we're used to zipper merging. Um, so my husband was like, I am not getting in this lane of 14 miles now of traffic, um, of one lane being opened. There's a whole other lane here that's completely free for seven miles. So, he gets over and starts to drive, not like 70, but you know, you're, you're still going faster than all the people who have stopped. We had people flip us off- Yep, it was me <laugh>. Truckers would come over, truckers would come over like big semi- Oh, yes. They do that. they would sit in the middle. We would go around them on the shoulder. You guys, I, I, I was so like- I am shocked. this stressed me out so much that I would put my seat down and just sit down with a blanket over my head. Like, I'm like- <laugh>. I can't even. People are yelling, trucks are trying to, you know, like drive us off the road. And yet, so, then what happened? We called, I <inaudible> and we're like, You guys have to do something. Like this is creating a problem. So then, within a couple of weeks, they had out signs every like mile. Merge at the merge, merge at the merge, merge at the merge because that's what it is. Hmm. Merging happens when you merge. You can't merge ahead of time. You're just switching all the traffic down into one lane. So yeah, like I said, I have lots of big feelings. Partly because of all that PTSD from when my husband made me almost dies as he was driving around semis who were trying to drive us around the road. <laugh>. Um, but it is America. You can do it, you can do it. Okay. Zipper merge. All right. <crosstalk> You can do it too, Meg. I'm gonna have to like lamaze breathe through it, but I will try it. I'll give it a try. Rebecca, I'm curious to know of, our in your Pennsylvania roads, are you a, an early merger, or are you a merge- <crosstalk> A late merge person. I, I'm, I'm more of a mid level merger. I don't wait until the very last second, but I'm not waiting all the way back- Yeah, yeah, yeah. at the end of the line either. Right. Yeah. Okay. Right. And that's kind of why. Is that when they did the studies, they found you know, some people will merge right away. A lot of people just kind of get up and then they look for a spot, then they have turn their blinker on, and some people just stopped because they get freaked out. Yeah. So like, if we just all used both lanes of traffic all the way up, and then just went boop, boop. Boop, boop, and took turns. Do you think of that- Right. <inaudible> in your head. Boop, boop. Um, then, you know, like no one's having to stop early and create that backup. You know. Okay. We can do it. All right. We can do it. All right. I feel, I feel change happening on from the inside, Kelly. Thank you for your inspiration and instruction. So, good stuff. I cannot wait to hear what the awesome community has to say. About this. Okay Rebecca, what's next on your list? Next on my list is daylight savings time. It is just like the worst. The changing of is the clocks. It is the worst. Cannot we not? Ah, my goodness. Can we not? I just- And it's this, this weekend? Yes, yes. So it's very timely. Um, I can't stand it. So first of all, I did a little bit of research. Like why, why do we do this, this stupid, stupid thing, and, uh, the first thing that I found out is that it's ca, it's the actual name of it is daylight saving time, not daylight savings time, like we all tend to say. Hmm. Okay. So, I'm calling this- Yes. a GIF, GIF situation and saying that the creators named it the wrong thing, and they're calling it the wrong thing. <laugh>. We should first change the name of it to daylight savings time, like everybody says because daylight saving time is- <crosstalk> and then we'll abolish it <laugh>. Yes. Okay, so, this is why it was created. To save fuel way back in World War One. mm-hmm <affirmative>. It was not created to help out the farmers, which is a common myth that many people believe. It went away, and then it came back again during World War Two. After World War Two, the US had the freedom to create their own rules. So, each town, each state could do their own time rules, whatever they wanted, and it was utter chaos. You could take a train from Virginia to Ohio and travel through seven different time zones. <laugh>. What on this earth? I, right? Um, not, sorry- Oh my. not, not different time zones, but just different ti, well yeah, times. Yes. Like time points. Like the, the clock is going forward and back, and forth and back. And- It- Yeah. So, to cr, help with that chaos, the uniform time act was created in 1966. And that's why we now have this daylight savings time. Um, we all follow it except for Hawaii and Arizona, and praise the lord for Florida and California because they're currently trying to get rid of it. And that would be what I propose. And I would say that we all live on the daylight savings time. That we all like we, we stopped going… I don't want to fall back. I want to stay in the time that the summer is. Let's. Okay. That's what I was going to ask. Is I always forget which is daylight saving. Is it summer? Like is that daylight saving, and then we revert to standard time. Standers time? Yes. <crosstalk> Winter time is the standard time, and that's the wrong time. Okay. Whoever created the standard time- <laugh>… messed it up, and w, standard time should actually be what's happening in the summertime. I, I mean, it's awful for parents with young children. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's awful for your pets. It, it's- Mm. Yeah. That's true. I forgot about that. <crosstalk>. Actually that's true. They, they all come out looking, and you're like, No, it's not even. It's not even dinnertime. Yeah. And they're like, It is. Pretty much it is. Exactly. Yeah. The dogs are like, I'm sorry, supper is an hour late tonight. What is wrong with you? Yeah, what's happening? So, when we, uh, spring ahead in the, in the spring, and the clocks change, there's like a 24% increase in heart attacks. I mean, like we are not doing energy saving that is worth a 24 per, percent increase in heart attacks. We're not doing any energy saving. I don't think we're doing ener, any energy saving at all. No. It's just like a thing now. I don't, I honestly don't understand it. Like why we can't just get rid of it. Well, California is voting right now to like try to stop it, and Florida, uh, they already voted, and now they're going through the process of like actually trying to get it approved. Because you have, you have… Now that we have this uniform time act, like you have to, you have to appeal it, and you have to get permission from the government to say this, This is dumb, but why, we should all be saying that this is dumb. And I feel like, I feel like there's already states that have opted out. Like I feel like Indiana- NO, there's parts of Indiana, not the whole state. <crosstalk> So, that's one of the interesting thing. <crosstalk> And that's also dumb. Yeah, it's, it's confusing for people who live in those little pockets. Yeah. So, Arizona and Hawaii, they, they've opted out. Mm. I will say, this is not a counterpoint, because I completely agree with you, and I endorse this message, but I do think here, living in the north, you know, right now I get up at 6:30. It is completely dark. mm-hmm <affirmative>. It is, the sun is rising right now about 7:47. So, when my, you know, son, my high school and gets on the bus in the morning, like there's just the greatest pre-dawn outside. Yeah. So, when we move the clocks back, it'll be nice. I will say it'll be nice next week to wake up for a few more weeks and still have some light in the morning. You know, that sunlight does help wake me up. Yep. But at the same time, we're going to be… You know, my kids are going to get off the bus at four. The sun is going to set in less than an hour. So, I, it's ju, it's, it's a trade off, right? That I just don't think it's worth it. Well, and that, that's my question to you. Is because I, I think that that's what a lot of people say is they hate waking up, you know, in the dark. Well, but what… Like if, I guess I'm curious, what the nation really does feel about it. Would you rather wake up in the dark? Or would you rather have it be dark at 4:35 o'clock at night? I would rather have a more light in my evening hours, personally. Me too. Yeah, yeah. Well, and the thing about the North is, all my Canadian awesomes are understanding this right now, is that, so it'll be nice the next few weeks to have some light in the morning, and you know what? It's still going to be gone by December- Yeah, that's true. we're going to be waking up in the dark, and going, like driving home from work in the dark no matter because we lost so much sunlight. So, that's why I just don't think the stress that it creates on families, on little children, on pets, on our bodies. It's just why? I don't get it. Yeah. Yeah. Can we not? Can we not? For sure. All right. The next one on my list k, is kind of a call back to my big feelings about Kelly. About Kelly? Uh, about Kelly's- Oh. uh, highway merging, um, opinions <laugh>. So, obviously I tend to take your being a good citizen very seriously when you're out in public with other people doing things like merging, but now I stand corrected. But can we not, you guys, can we not be bad citizens in our parking lots? Yes. Oh, I'm glad you're saying this. Preach. <laugh>. But truly. There's so many parking lot errors <laugh>, if I may, um, that happen, and it all just drives me crazy because I feel like it all is just like, Well, my time is very valuable, and I simply do not have time to park in a normal spot. I have to park in this handicapped spot. Yeah, I gotta park here. I'm not, I don't have any handicap. My car isn't marked, but I'm parking here, and I'm using it, or you know, like the expected mother spot at Trader Joe's, or whatever. I just, there's… Especially at Trader Joe's <laugh>. There's like never any parking. And so, you see people <laugh>. It is what it does like get a callback to Rebecca as you see people park in the expectant mothers spot. And you're like, Hmm. Is that honest? I'm not going to ask now, but <laugh>. But likes yes, parking where you're not supposed to park, or parking in a fire lane. Like why are you so special that you get to park in a fire lane with your minivan? You're a fire truck. Um, not putting your carts away. Now, I will say, I have to confess. When the twins were babies and toddlers, and I was like trying to figure out how to get two little humans into the car from the cart. I, I confess, I have done this more than once. So, I'm shaming my own self here. But in Oklahoma, especially where our wind comes sweeping down the plain, and you leave your, you don't put your carts in the cart corral, what happens to that cart? It gets blown all over the parking lot, it bashes into people's cars, messes up their paint on their cars. Like why? Can we not do that? I heard a comedian say once, I think it might have been John Chris, and he was talking about this very issue. And he's like, You just walked the equivalent of three miles through every aisle of Costco, and you go out to the parking lot, and you're like, Nope, not a step more. I can't return the cart. <laugh>. That's, that's it. Exactly. Yes. I, the cart thing drives me kind of bonkers. Now, I will say, I can extend grace- Yes. because I understand that there are times, or they're older people. Sure. And again, if it snows where you live, pushing a cart through snow, a snow parking lot, it's, it's hard. You know, like the, the wheels get gunked up, and they don't turn anymore. You're going over ruts. It's, it's kind of like the wild wild west. Like you, you like a wagon. <laugh>. You know, you see some people, they've like sat down next to their cart. They're like, I can't go on. I can't go any further. <laugh>. Okay. Now, I hadn't thought about that- So-… because we definitely don't have those levels of snow. So that's a good point. Yes. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah, but still, you know, like I guess in that sense I can have some understanding, but, so I'll just grab extra carts if I'm, if I'm passing somebody, especially somebody with young kids. Yes, yes. Because I've been there. You know? Um, I was like, I'll be like, Can I take your cart? You know, just to, because again, how far are they? Right. There's usually one in every row. You, it's not like you're having to go really far. Yes. So, but I just, I, I know that there's just not much excuse for that. It's kind of like littering. You know? Oh gosh. I just, I just, I don't get it. No, why do, you, you can put your cart back. I've always kind of patted myself on the back that I'm a cart returner, and not just a cart returner, But that I try to put it in the corral, and push it forward to help organize the carts- Ooh yeah. to the best, to the maximum capacity. And I've always thought to myself as I walk back to my car. Oh Rebecca, aren't you just amazing for the earth? Look at, look at what you just did for humanity today. <laugh>. We are definitely giving you a gold star because you took the extra effort to push the cart all the way in. That is going the extra mile for sure. The cart corral badge is yours Rebecca. Yes, for sure. I will wear it proudly. Oh my goodness. You guys, we actually have more on our lists, but now we're out of time. So, we're going to save these last little can we nots that have been on our minds that we're having such a beautiful cathartic like moment of releasing these. We're gonna save those, and uh, release them out to our sorta awesome superstar listener supporters. You know, from time to time, we share, uh, content that we don't share on our Friday shows with our superstar listener supporters. So, if you have not joined that amazing group of people that we call the superstars, you can do that so easily when you go over to SortaAwesomeShow.com/Support. We have all the details that you need to know there. And, uh, when you sign up, you'll get access to the rest of our lists from today, from this episode, plus all of the exclusive episodes that we've released in the past two years, uh, as a way of saying thank you to our superstar, um, listener supporters. So, that concludes our regular episode. Uh, for people who might have a little, little feedback, maybe a few clap backs, I don't know. Maybe everybody will be agree with us. I guess we're about to find out. Uh, let's remind everybody where they can find this all around the web. Kelly, How about you? I'm on Instagram and Twitter at Kelly Gordon MN for Minnesota, and on Facebook at Facebook.com/LoveWellBlog. Okay. And Rebecca? You can find my blog at SimplyRebecca.com, where I talk about parenthood and homemaking, and all those fun things. And then you can also find me on Facebook and on Instagram at Simply Rebecca. Okay. You can find me on social media at Sorta Awesome Meg. Don't forget the show is over on Twitter at Sorta Awesome Pod, and you can find us anytime on Facebook at Facebook.com/SortaAwesome. You guys, thanks so much for listening, and we'll see y'all next time. Sorta Awesome was created and is hosted by me, Meg Tietz. Sarah Robertson is our assistant producer. And production collaboration comes from Kelly Gordon, and Rebecca Hoffer. Kelly Gordon is our digital media producer. And we are so thankful for the ongoing support from our listener supporters. Music is provided by the band Progger. You can find more of Progger's music at ProggerMusic.com To find show notes on this, and every episode of Sorta Awesome, and also to spread the Sorta Awesome love to all of your friends, you can head on over to SortaAwesomeShow.com. 

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+Welcome to drinking bros presented by by black white milk coffee.com, put down the water in <inaudible> fucking drink. Welcome to drinking bros kids. Look, you've been staying in the last couple episodes and I'll say it again. We listened. We heard who your favorite most requested guests that you wanted on the show. And we did it. We did it. Well, we got four out of five. Um, we didn't get Regan still what? We're working on it. We're working on Joe Regan and give us some time. Uh, the next one up though, Is a man who killed bin Laden. Yeah. Its Rob Oneal. You guys have been asking for Rob Oneal forever. And truthfully we didn't know him. Uh, Matt. Uh, or Evan or, or, or Jared? Rocco. None of us. None of us really knew him. Um, I, I saw him at a concert one night and that was about it, but he was on stage like nowhere near me. I couldn't just say, Hey rob, it's ROb <inaudible> and come on the show. I couldn't do it. Instead you guys did it? Um, in particular there was a company named led by iron that's led B.Y.R.O.N.com. Uh, their, their response on Ross Patterson revolution, they're huge fans of drinking rose as well. And they said, hey man, we ran in Robin and event. I know everybody's been trying to get him on the show at Drinking Bros. How about we switch numbers and you guys can chat and get them on the show. We, we, we think it will be awesome. And I was like, holy shit, we'd love to have Rob on the show. That'd be amazing. um, so I, I want to give a special shout out to, uh, Josh Genes and Tyler Rainy over it led by iron.com. I also met, I love all your workout gear over there. Uh, if you want to peruse their catalog, do there. They're red fucking dudes, man. One's a paramedic. The other one's a firefighter there, 100 percent first responder owned and they make gym apparel that actually fits you. It's not all bulky and loose and if jacked as me right now, you need something like that. It's not getting away. So I, I genuinely want to say thank you to Josh and Tyler for putting us together and uh, and making this amazing interview happen tonight. This, this was for me and the rest of the guys like a dream come true, man. Uh, it was awesome. I mean, how many times do you get to talk to the guy who fired the first shots and actually took down Osama bin laden? Pretty fucking amazing. Uh, but first we have some sponsors who pay for this whole shit to be on the air. First step. We've got black rifle coffee.com. Oh yeah. It will be our cc for the holidays. The look the holidays are right around the corner. Kids were here at this point once November 1st hits. It's all, it's all over. You. gotta start buying for Christmas. Go to black rifle Coffee.com. Dear loved ones. Some, some bags of coffee, some K-cups, some apparel. So new mugs or just just some salt rock coasters. They got it all over it. Black rifle coffee.com. Coffee that is made a 100 percent by veteran hands. Oh yeah. So you know, it's good. It's a premium roast to order coffee. They make it fresh in house, then bag it up and ship it straight to you. Use the onetime promo code Drinking bros 20. That's Drinking bros 20 for 20 percent off. I Would highly recommend using that on the coffee club of the month program. We love our BRCC. Next up we've got strike force energy.com. OG homies. You know them real well after their last prank. I don't even know if it was a prank or it was real. I mean it's real because I see people drinking it online. They gave away 15000 packs for free. That's why you should follow them on Instagram and Facebook. They do shit like this all the time. Or just like, hey, just write your name in. Boom was saying some free strike force. Uh, in the meantime, if you haven't had this, get on the fucking strike force train. Kicked the can kids. You don't need the cans anymore. They've got 40 tasting flavors, orange original lemon and make America great again. They get a 10 pack of 40 pack in a 750 milliliter bottle, yet another one for the holiday season, but a little bottle of strike force underneath that tree this year. watch your family go bug fuck. Go to strike force energy.com. Type in the promo code Drinking bros as always for 20 percent off. You know, that's good. Every time. Not just one time, but every time. And they ship everywhere in the entire world. We get a lot of listeners over in, uh, Australia and England. Yes. Kids they shipped to you to strike force energy.com. Get on it's Drinking bros. Twenty percent off. Premier energy drink in the biz. Next time we get ghostbed.com forward slash Drinking bros. I love that they made over our own home, our own homepage. Who has that? No one Ghosted has done that for us. They've got, they've got new mattresses in house, those cooling mattresses over keeps me up about yo man, that's the fucking truth. Yes. Yes they are. So the cooling sheets and that adjustable base, by the way, whoever built that as a goddamn genius. It's got USB port in it senates, flashlights, all that shit because let's face it, your wife goes to sleep earlier, up in bed, reading your phone for like a good hour, hour and a half before that, that fucking Xanax kicks in before you go to Sleep. You might be be reading something on the ghost bed. They've also got the ghost pillows, which are nice wow. Go to ghostbed.dot com, forward slash Drinking bros and sleep. So good. It's scary. They have a pay as you go. Plan which nobody's offering, especially to this crowd. What I'm saying. So take advantage of that before it's gone. Uh, next up we got bison union dotcom. New to this and true this look, you know, hashtag Bert from TV. You know the brands, you know the company, uh, earn your food kids, be the bison. this is the finest apparel that you can make for dudes right now in this world. Uh, Bert Koontz and his wife Candice packed up bottle, bought a cabin in the woods and <inaudible>, fuck it. We're in for the long haul. We're going to make this the best god damn apparel company on the planets. Uh, you wear their hats, you're already wearing their belts. Now they get cowboy boots over there, um, and, and their tee shirts look, you see as the inner Instagram and Facebook wearing that shit all the time. We love them. And now they're a sponsor.Um And the beauty of it is you guys are the ones that asked for a promo code for bison union. Congratulations. You have it stricken bros. Twenty percent off, not a one time. Use it all the time. If you really want to load up for Christmas, go to bison union.com. Dude. You can buy everything on their goddamn sites, uh, with, with the 20 percent off who? That is a savings and um, that shit lasts forever, man. Great quality man. They really, really fucking doing it right over bison union.com. Again, promo code Drinking bros for 20 percent off. That's good for forever. So just keep gassing it over there. Next up, we've got real your ass off.com all. I feel like all of these sponsors are perfect for the holidays because these are gifts that you genuinely want. You need seasonings for thanksgiving, you need seasonings for that Turkey on Christmas day, you need seasonings year round, and let's face it, you're going to get them anyways. You're going to get the Lowery's at the story, going to get the Montreal steak seasoning. No, go buy it from a company that's 100 percent veteran owns. Go to grill your ass off.com. typing the promo code Drinking bros for 15 percent off. While you're there, grab that beef jerky that beef jerky is the finest I've ever had. No lie, man. I eat that shit all the time. Uh, I'm bulking but I'm lifting weights, eating jerky all day. I love it, man. That's sweet. And spicy is my jam. They got a four pack for $25 and uh, they also got some mugs over there is uh, some, some refreshing little beer mugs that me and my lady a drink out of a lot. Go to grill your ass off.com. Try crispy, spicy habanero. A blend. That's fucking amazing. Uh, again, grill your ass up.com. Promo code drinking bros 15 percent off. Last but not least, we've got grenades, soap.com. In coming grenades, soap.com. How do I love thee? Let me count the ways. No, let me snIff the ways. Why is it called grenade soap.com? Because it's shaped like a, like a grenade. What's the special ingredient? Gunpowder. Yes, that's real. There's real gunpowder inside each bar of soap. Dude. It acts like a fucking, just like an exfoliant. Like it's amazing. Uh, you, you rub your body with it. They've got a taint scrubber that comes with it. That's no lie. By the way, everybody keeps buying these taint. Scrubbers, <inaudible> season. Clean yourself up. Kids. Uh, you never know when you're going to take him a one night stand or a tinder date and she's going to flip you over and say, let me, let me go around to the back door and see who's cooking in and Denis kitchen grenade soap.com. Type in the promo code. Drinking bros for 20 percent off. They've got all the best bathing products for dudes that we actually smelling a dude and not your wife. Ladies and gentlemen, here's Rob O'Neill, <unk:> My Lone star, my lone stars. Ladies and gentlemen, this is a special day for drinking. Long awaited, long awaited. This Rob Oneal is here. You are the most requested guests. That's is very cool thing Three years, that's serious three years all they've asked is for you to come on the show. We said we would make it happen somehow some way. And you were here today. I was kinda waiting around till you guys got more followers. <crosstalk> We've been huge for a while. I know. I appreciate it. Seriously, it's great to be down here. Yeah, we should all think Ross for his service. Thank you Ross. Have a moment of silence for Ross's service in the <crosstalk> I think I <inaudible> four of us we know who the real hero is here. <crosstalk> The <inaudible> show up. Yeah, exactly.I too out my chef at olive garden wants. I Just pushed him out of the backdoor, made that, made it myself, made the chicken Palm myself a no Rob. Seriously, it is. It is an absolute honor and a pleasure to be here With all you guys, appreciate it. Very cool. Hell yeah. We're going to drink whiskey. Have fun and do, but stuff. I'm already up one free bottle of navy seal Columbia. Why did you make that, by the way? Why did I? We have the have idea. We were just. We were just hanging out.It's a wonderful idea. It was like we had a friend that had a bottling company that was able to just test fragrances and stuff. You know Rocco, Rocco, you going to cologne guy? He's like, yeah, I do. Yeah, of course. Rock. So we got the prices back on it and it was like super easy to do to run 500 bottles and so we were just like, let's just do it like and we had Gary do this logo out. It's just ridiculous and funny and it means it's just like, oh, let's be. Are you selling it anymore now? No No. It was a limited edition guy anymore now. But really the full reason for that was, is I wanted to make one of those fake Calvin Klein commercials with the whispering in the black and white And just make it all about <crosstalk> <inaudible> Parachute merit time <inaudible>. So It's just like when we got the sample bottles back, I took a, uh, I was on the range with apaches and there is an apache hovering right by me, so I just took a slow mo video and played the team America song while holding the navy seal and posted that and it went crazy. Like this is going to be available. So it was like, all right, I guess we're running now. Yeah. Oh man. Have you ever seen when I did with that, I did It was <inaudible> the girl and I'm like, I'm arranger. And she's like, cool bro. Then I blow out the navy seal and, and then she's like, this hardcore sex- <crosstalk> just goes straight to my mom didn't like that commercial side. And rightfully so. But that's funny. My mom keeps playing it like over and over and over again. Oh, well that's because your mom and I have a special relationship. What do you do? Special? Um, we insert things. In hee atm. Oh, Rob if you've seen Jerrod's mom is. She's kind of shocking. We're like really ship, really well put together. Super cute lays out by the pool. Very tan and the way her tan lines pop off of her skin. Oh god. Oh baby tan lines put down. Just a peek. Yeah. Stop it. Big tan like guy. My dad was in the navy 29 years Oh well he was in the Parchie. What kind of <inaudible> Its a spooked boat. Yeah. Yeah. Um, those are, those are tough. Those. Have you been on sub? Well yeah, not, not, not out to- I was a jersey Mike's the last time I was in the sub <crosstalk> Not the same type of service again. That's food- Different service all together that I was in. Where were you living now? I'm in between Dallas and New York city. Fucking cool. Yeah. I travel quite a bit. I'm on a, I'm on the road doing a lot of speed speaking, a lot of stuff for my foundation, which you're a grateful nation. I'll transition and special operators to private sector. So a lot of. What was the name again? You're a grateful nation. You're a grateful nation <inaudible> and you're a grateful nation.org. And we, um, yeah, we, we take guys from right now special forces into the private sector because they have a lot of skills that they don't know they have that a lot of, a lot of companies want that they learned in the military how to lead, be lead stress management, loyalty and we put them through a nine month, um, mentorship program and then in any industry they want and to get, to get the interim charge of major projects. So a lot, a lot of time on the road with 10 and a how much it costs to run a foundation am <inaudible> Its crazy right? Yeah yeah <inaudible> Jerry's wife actually wanted him in the loyalty program. <crosstalk> God he is on secondary <crosstalk> Oh yeah. Legs cut off of that one. No am totally kidding. Do you enjoy public speaking? I love it. It's true because you are getting it's kind of a rush to get in front of people. I like to see a try out new material. A lot of jokes in there, a lot of military type jokes that the corporate people don't think jokes and so it's funny to see their reactions get on stage. Like in the first 30 seconds, drop an F bomb just so that, like, what did he just say? Like in a, what's that movie where he's assuming the wedding song drops fucking in the middle of it, Um, old, old, old school. Yeah. Yeah. I Fucking need it now now- And fucking looking at they say fucking needs now and its kind of sets the tone yeah its fun speaking in front of people It's a, <inaudible> crowds are different. They've always been good and it just, it just fun to their reactions because they don't expect a joke. They want some, a lot of, a lot of speakers, military speakers get up there and there are a lot of them are tough guys and they speak tough guy and very clinical and they intimidates, I want my people to have fun. So we have, uh, we have fun with them. I think it's a great take on it. You guys are actually everyone but here other than me is phenomenal and speaking Jared great at Ross is great at it. I fucking hate speaking to people I mean Ross <inaudible> MGM grand- I will analyze it <inaudible> some shit, but paralysis. That's good. But I've seen seen you do some speaking stuff and it's fucking pretty cool. Thank you. Well, I learned the key to public speaking is three strong drinks, not four, not two. Three of them get the three gauge that drink or we talking three to three fingers, of course Yeah. <inaudible> got to be a- Depend which finger because this Is a little See I refused to drink uh, before the national anthem because I'm terrified. I'm going to forget the words. <crosstalk> Back through your voice and you shouldn't drinking. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Rob, if I can, I want to. I'm going to share a story with the audience. It was the first time I saw you. Uh, you're not going to remember me obviously, but um, I'm in Columbus, Ohio for a rolling stones concert. Yes. I remember that- You were in the crowd though. There 70000 people there, but I row <crosstalk> i was right there. And a kid rock is opening up for the rolling stones. He stops the show mid set and he goes, ladies, gentlemen, I want you to raise a fucking beer man who killed Osama bin laden. And then you he introduce the Rob Oneal. You come out on stage. people lost their fucking mind. He was putting myself. <crosstalk> This is America. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, like that, that the navy seal, cologne and shakes his panty droppers, man, he asked me, because he's a buddy of mine. He asked me if he could, um, playing American bad ass and they played the national anthem in the middle and said, you want to come out and check it out. I'll tell you what, if you haven't been on stage for where the stones are about to play, that's a lot of people be like looking at wow, how crazy- it was <inaudible> a point anywhere. And then 7000 hands go up and see. It's like mind control. It's so cool. But it's surreal. It's like the first time you jumped out of a plane, like it's not that big. You just kind of take it a in. Yeah. The, the, the interesting part about it, and I'm not saying this just because you're on the show, is you have kid rock, you have the rolling stones and the crowd goes crazy. They went bananas for you I don't know if you stayed for the stone show, or if you bounce stuff. I know we did. We stayed there. We had some guys up there with some families When you came out on stage. I mean it was crazy. That was the loudest. It was all night and that was just like, holy shit. That was me, it was neat. And when I went home like is my buddies were like, dude that was the show like It was like, it was rad, but like the dude who killed Bin Laden came out like, holy fucking shit. It was amazing, It was cool. Did you ever see yourself there? I mean, No, God, no, no. It's crazy, right? Because I think that, uh, you know, being a fucking amazing quote that I love is there's difference between quite professional, silent professional, but I mean, I can't imagine in so many years that you served and then doing such a public event in such a private culture that there is no way you could keep that under wraps There was no way we, we, um, well, what's my plan, my plan? Well, I mean, you know, there's never a perfect plan always changes. My plan was to, uh, 30 years in the navy, uh, and as a, as a master chief buds instructor and retiring California, smoke cigars and the beach, that's, that's the plan. And then we got called for the Bin Laden raid and even training for that. It's like, well, I'm not going to get the shot, but we joke with each other about who is like, he's gonna get on a fucking slide, being the guy named <inaudible> and my buddy with <inaudible> the going to take them down. That's what's going to happen The bp, the bp <inaudible> guys is like go go go Kill the fucking junior guy. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, you know, every senior guys, like I'm the first indoor bitches. We got that one when we got done with them mission, I mean even guys in the helicopter and knew what happened and as we're flying back and when we landed, the mechanics from TF 160 knew what happened. They're all pointing at me. It's like getting God forbid to get back to Virginia Beach and 16 hours and every one of the goddamn city knows. It's like, did you go that quick back to. Yeah, we, we, uh, yeah, we, we got back, you know, the 90 minute flight out to jay bad. Yep. Then we put them on a C130, flew up to <inaudible> then we laid out all the, all the SSC stuff. So you know, who was where, what was in the house, laying it out. They got the body there, they're doing the DNA. And then when we got the news on and they're talking about it already, then the president comes out and then we actually tried to find. We wanted to find a, the navy sea bees because if anyone's going to have a pizza oven and a bunch of brown liquor, it's going to be them.Sea bees know how they <crosstalk> got it. So, um, yeah, we went there, showered up, hung out. We got on the internet and it's all over new seal team six is killed bin laden. Then we got on a plane and flew and so, you know, fifteen, 16 hours back. By that I mean there were people waiting for us when we got there, like everyone knew what happened. Everyone knew cause everyone on both coasts, because you've got to seal teams in Virginia Beach and then <inaudible>. Every single seal gets asked who got him and he'd say, well don't tell anybody but, and then that friend told the bartender appeaser over at the ready room in Virginia, <inaudible> that by the way, is the most accurate video. I've Seen it for the whole machine <inaudible> <crosstalk> ask you <crosstalk> Rob <inaudible> funnier dice. That's how it went down. It really was. Yeah. That's basically what happened. I got a little trouble for that. Does he know? Does Rob Niggle known? Yeah, I met him. I think he kissed me on the mouth when I met him at a Superbowl party. <inaudible> not that, Hey, whatever.So question for you just because we share similar backgrounds, if know far more claim service in your end, but the, Is it different, right. I, I'm trying to put myself in that perspective. I've shot enough people in my day, but I'm like, is it different when it's such a high profile individual? Pretty much America has been hunting this motherfucker here over a decade and you get a fucking dry dirt nap this fuck. Is it? Is it so rewarding or is it like, or is it the immediate sense? Fuck the fallout. That is the first thing. When I shot him, then I did a few things in the room. Then it hit me and I, I my, my, one of my first thoughts was, oh my god, is this the worst thing I've ever done? Or just the best thing I've ever done this, this, this is unchartered shit here. And I saw what happened to one of my friends who was the lead sniper that initiated the fire to rescue Richard Phillips. One of my best friends captain Phillips, yeah. Um, he led the, he'd lead the, the fire, and that was our job, wasn't to go kill those guys. We had snipers down for security. He saw someone safe, initiated the fire, the other snipers reacted and they all shot. But he, which you were, he got a lot. I was there, but I wasn't down in the shooting. I was one of the assault team members. But because he initiated the fire, that was the biggest mission we'd ever done. He was getting shit from his bosses, like they were pissing him because that close to something that big and they didn't get a shot. But he did. It's, it's a weird. It's a weird sense that starts going down. So I knew, I knew when that happened, when I showed up in <inaudible> oh mean this is not only is there going to be blow back, but someone's going to find out who I am and they're going to come after me now. Not, not navy. I'm talking <inaudible> over that now that paranoid- Am not over it. It's just, um, it's a realization that it's, it, it, it's there. I mean, is there, you'd never even even even sub The enemy threat, like with, with everything went down with Chris kyle, all of us this in the back of our right now we have to it could be one of our fucking own that just wants a few minutes. Some weird. Yeah. Wants to be, wants to be the one that I'm a there is worry there With a threat though, It's you need to be aware that they want. We're all targets, not just us, but I'm talking like they're not going to wait for me to walk out of fox news by myself walking quickly when they can go a block up and hit times square with whatever they got. Sure. Like if they're waiting with a gun, they're going to kill 30 people instead of waiting to try to find me. So. But the threats there. Yeah. Um, and you know, so guns, dogs, cameras, security systems, sometimes armed security, but you do what you do. I agree in mildly disagree that I think that yes, you have soft targets where you could get the most mass casualty, which is national news. But then there's also, I think the same way of like shooting such high profile people been lawn like because I'm a fucking nobody. But I think about that and that's why I take such big security measures in my own life is because I'm a fucking douche bag on the internet. But motherfuckers went, I mean I make fucking <inaudible> <inaudible> <crosstalk> national security, very true. There's a reason I sleep with night vision and the suppressed fucking AR and armor and we got to fucking sleep <inaudible> I sleep with a pillow under my guns. <crosstalk> So I didn't know how to make that up. But I can take. I'll take credit for that matter. All jokes or recycling- Am sure somebody else took credit for sure <crosstalk> <crosstalk>. To that door though. Were you just tickled? Just like. No, the going up, we going up to the house was awesome because like my guys are already inside because they crashed and we're outside so they're already in there in the fight. We didn't know they crashed. We just know they're in there because there's a lot of shooting going on. So when I got innocent, so just looking at it's like, oh this is fucking cool, that's been Alonzo's house, that's more of that feeling and it's going to blow up tonight and we're all gonna die. I'm going to take this in. But then going into the last set of stairs, like everyone did such a great job. Nobody was afraid even though there should be IDs is everywhere in the house of course. There's one guy in front of me, I'm behind him and we know Bin Lan is going to be up there and that's where the suicide bombers have got to be. So it wasn't even a let's go get them. It was more of I'm fucking tired of thinking about this man. Let's go to. Two of us went up and it was a, It turned into a surreal, followed by frozen, followed by shit. We might live to the fuck out. I know There's, there's speak of that in the book and our actually really want to get to know you more on a personal level. Not speak about one fucking day of your whole entire life because it doesn't define you. I don't think I think it's just- Appreciate that. Absolutely man, I, I, you know, I have a decent amount of friends, but obviously with my background, <inaudible> background, we all know that like you can define yourself by one absolutely terrible or great moment your life, but like you're so much more than that. But obviously I'm sure the listeners want some details like, so. Oh yeah. Which is funny, right? And I think that's when people say thank you for your service. I think that's really it. It's a blanket statement, but that's, that thought that you put through your head like, yeah, I'm going to fucking die because they think a lot of us had been in that position. Like, oh yeah of course we're going to die when it comes. You've walked into buildings and they've wired cell phones to fucking, you know, initiate an IED and just dump the platoon. Like it's, it's standard walking down a choke point and it's, we're going to put it there and we're all shit. All shit can. But. So did you. Were you like walking up there going, I know this is going to be an engagement with set individual or was it like, did santa come like <crosstalk> It was, it was, It was, we're going to blow up and it's almost a question of how fast do I go to avoid it or do I get right on top and beat it? What do we. Because the guy in front of his brain and he, he took the dump on the, uh, turned out to be women that he thought were invest. He just want tackled them. So he's taken it to and I just turned. So he thought they were going to initiate <crosstalk> so he just sang <crosstalk>. He killed his son on the way up the stairs, kill <inaudible> on the stairs, and then we went up. I was like eight guys back when I got to watch that go down. That was one of the coolest things I've ever seen. How he just whispered to <inaudible> and he came out and the kid peaked his head up. I mean, that was just a very, very smart operator. Knowing if I stay calm, don't freak him out. Maybe I can confuse him. Maybe he'll come look at me and he did and he said, come here in two different languages. He knew <inaudible> spoke, he roll down the stairs. He just died right there. He was like, oh, behind a banister on like a big stair that's in the middle of it. That's what someone calls big dick energy. Yeah. <crosstalk> What's up? Boom that was bad epic.And so I was acres back still in the training and we went up the stairs and they all split off to clear the rooms on the left and right. And then left me in the appointment and then we'll kind of just standing there and he said something goofy like, uh, these bitches is getting trucking or some. There was something weird where I said, I don't think that word means what you think it means. Like our last joke. Yeah. It gets squeezed. We're going to go up and blow up now. And that's, that's kinda how it went down. It was never, it wasn't going to be planned for him, him, he and I. It's just, that's how it came down. Did he communicate anything before the initial shots went off or it was just like, oh, He was. He was he wanted to go up the stairs because he thought we could beat him. He's like, they're putting on vests. We weren't really talking, but he, he really wanted to go and I, I wanted two more guys. I want a four more guys. I'll take two. But he was saying, he said, come on, come on. He knew it was one of his guys, not me. It's one of my guys on my shoulder to men. He said we got to go. So you go up there, <inaudible> Violence of action, right? You got to beat the fucking. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. We're a story in my whole entire life is because we waited too long and we let them prep. That's exactly. Last cow. Yes. Shitty shitty fucking day. Yeah. Sometimes you got to get an course. So when you, when you roll up in there, did you, was there any reaction from like bin laden or was it just like a fucking deer in headlights like- it was, it was closer to deer in the headlights, but he was moving toward me with his wife in front of him and he was 64 and she was not, and it's an easy shot from. He was three or four feet away, but just I remember seeing him. I can see it right now if I want to. And uh, you know, we're in the white skirt and the scars, the white cLothes was <crosstalk>, Yeah, yeah it was dark yeah. And then I could just, I could, I could recognize his notes. Um, that's his nose is. I was surprised at how short his beard was, but it was gray. He was wearing his white hat.Tall, skinny old, but he's moving towards me. He's not surrendering. If you know a guy, that high profile has about a second to convince me not to kill hi. And he didn't do it and I blast them. And then it's one of those feelings. I'm sure you can. I hope we can agree, Matt, like when you're in a situation and someone's not a threatening kind of just feel it. Right. So his wife was not, she's not wearing a vest I could just tell. So I moved here and he's dying at the foot of his bed. I could hear him take his last breath and that's when other seal started coming in the room and his two year old son was there and I picked him up because as father, I'm thinking this poor kid has nothing to do with this and it just watches his dad get blast in front of him. So I put him down and that's when other seals were in there and that's when it sort of hit me and one of my guys was happy just being a typical operator finding like, hey man, you good? I said, no, what do we do now? We said now find the computer's bro we do this every night. And I'm like, you're right. Holy shit. <inaudible> So you just killed in <inaudible> let's get back to the work you can dare men. That's crazy on that. On that ride back, did it ever set into you, because I'm sure being in the military, this is your dream kill. It doesn't get any bigger. It was, but it was. It was going to be delta. It was never going to be me certainly or it's going to be senior guys from my command, but it's not me. And then, and again it's not me, it's the team. The entire team did it. Everything from the analyst to the pilots of the air crew, but I took the shots so on the way back the that what a small world that is. I'm actually laying on top of the sniper who initiated the fire for captain Phillips. I'm actually laying on him as it can be crowded cause you had other guys from the seal team on there. They came in under squad room to get us and I mentioned that he had been taken a lot of shit for what he did for captain Phillips and every time he did I will go to him with a can of Copenhagen and say, take a dip for me. Your hero. Don't listen to the negativity. Don't listen to the haters and I do that all the time and I'm laying on top of him, might not still down and I see this Copenhagen come up and he goes here now you can take one of mine because you know how it feels like <crosstalk> and then a, the guy next to me, he's another seal from team six from manhattan and he asked me the question who got them and I said, shit, I think I did. And he said on behalf of my family, thank you, and was like Jesus. Wow. Yeah, it's interesting you say that and like, and, and not to get too peel on your back too much but like the criticism on people coming out and telling stories of heroism has always kind of perplexed me. I think that there are these stories that have to be told and guys that have fucking spent decades in war and it's not a fucking easy job. There's a reason why. Like I said that, thank you for your service thing earlier in life, limb fucking everything. These are guys that are willing to go out there and run at not only a known threat but prominent death. Oh, like, you know you're going to fucking die and, and, and, and I think that we often too often criticize her own for being a little public with that information as long as there's not TTPS and SNPS. That's exactly right. Fuck with guys and, and, and the continuation of the mission. Like why not tell these stories because you know, I know a lot of guys back in world war two and Vietnam that they probably wish they could have fucking told the stories of heroism of their friends that were doing these epic things in the name of the fight that America voted for.This your point here in this was a big complaint and almost an argument I got into days before I left active duty with leadership inside the air combat command because I, I raised my hand when they come around and do the dog and pony show with someone from headquarters air force. And they're like, who has questions? I go, when are we getting a MO recipient? and the answer from them is we don't do things for the metals and I go, yeah, that's great, but we need people to be recognized for the things that they did. So these young guys all in this room know who to strive to be and be like. Because when I came in, uh, in 2003, that was right after the first wave of silver stars and air force cross got award to the guys on Robert's Ridge and talker Gar. It's right. So me as a young guy, I was reading citations of guys. I was like, just had this god complex for that was like, these guys are fucking bad assets and we had this gap from like 2009 in our community where we just weren't recognizing anybody for anything. It wasn't that we stopped doing anything. It's just people's, you know, people in the higher ups and things like that stop rewarding guys For things that they do because it's a jealousy thing. It's a fucking. A lot of jealousy. Yeah. It's all ego. right? And I mean that's. I joined the army to be orange because black hawk down, especially to unit guys that were, you know, gay fucking died in and knew they were going to like, I was like, that's where I want to be in life. I want to be one of those guys and I don't give a fuck if I die in my twenties because I want to be someone that is like a legend and respected and you know, life takes its course. But I think it's super inappropriate and unfair for people to judge at that level, especially When they've never put the fucking boots on and done the work. So it's my one little thing I want to interject in there as I fucking hate it when I see our community eat our own. Oh man, that happens to- No fuck, trust me, I know I'm a, you know. And all I do is make fucking dumb youtube videos <inaudible>. You're like, eat me for fucking having a career. Like everybody just needs to chill out and realize that like we're fucking a community and a family and we have to like be better together. And the only way that happens is if we come together as one, <inaudible> telling the story to like with my book, I got it approved through the DOD pentagon. How long did it take? <crosstalk> <inaudible> Mine took like nine months. I think they wanted <inaudible> like this is crazy but as long as like you said you're not giving up TTPS or putting anyone in harm's way. The story should be told. And I'm happy with mine. Like I, I have a platform now where I can tell people I didn't have the most dangerous job in the military. It's the soldier in the marine, the airman that are walking through minefields in, in the daytime, in Kandahar. Yeah. That's the dangerous job. And no one hears their stories. So that needs to be a platform for people after doing it. I'm pretty sure we're happy, uh, that George Washington brought a biographer with them when he fought the hessians in the revolutionary war. I'm glad we know what happened at <inaudible>. I'm glad we know what happened on Normandy. The stories need to be told like it or not. Sounds like it's not like, my <inaudible> personally, I've never taken credit for been lone and I'm just telling you what happened on the stairs. Sure. <crosstalk> the guy in front of me. Somebody else did though. Somebody else tried to take credit for that, right? Yeah. Well sort of, um, uh, he, uh, there was a book, no easy day that was written. Correct. And it's, I, again, everyone on that mission that put their butts in the seat, risk their life they're all here. Fuck yeah. And, and a colleague of mine wrote a book and I don't, he was behind me. I don't know that's, it's a fog of war. It's a lot of emotion and stuff like that. But as far as I know, he never said he killed Bin Laden he said he shot bin laden. Yeah. Yeah, he did. <crosstalk> I read the book. He said, uh, someone else got him first and then two people Came in afterwards while he was gasping for breath and they ended it. So they shot him afterwards in the book. Okay. Um, and, I don't know what happened back when I saw Bin Laden he was standing on his feet and I shot him three times, he was on his feet again. They're all heroes and the team did the mission, the pilot that crashed, landed and saved everyone's lives in dash one. He's the hero. I'm a guy. That one upstairs. I was scared and I just knew the tactics. You don't want to let you <crosstalk> in my response to that. Coming from a direct action community would be like let's all sit at the table and drink a glass of whiskey because everybody devoted their lives to get that. That's such a fucking specialized fucking unit and participate in no fucking like more threat situation. Maybe because I come from the community where we're the insurance policy that it's more of the, like if my teammate killed somebody <crosstalk> i grab him in that position, I fight, it'd be like, yeah, <crosstalk> what my team <inaudible> when I saw out there there was we got in a fucking ambush, we end up shooting like fucking 11 people or whatever. And him and I in an AR got after it. I was like, no, I dumped that guy. And he's like, no, no. I shot him and we like went back and forth and they were like, he's dead guy.oh yeah, he didn't kill any other guy so one of us did the job <inaudible> On the mission to the bin laden raid. We brought only seals. So we're like, we don't have our air force. If someone gets shot or we need to call cast, you're fucked. I know how to carry a sledge hammer. That's the baddest tactical I did. oh, well I know all the guys that were on the, uh, the Phillips red <crosstalk> On the Phillips <inaudible>. Can you clear something up? Sure did. Did he actually say, look at me. I'm the captain now. I don't know that's a great. <crosstalk> I've got a good one for you on this. I sat next to the play on a plane next to a guy that had just gotten out of prison and he was the barber in the prison that. That guy's act, the captain. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and he said like, he is so salty and still to this day trying to fight that he didn't get any money from the movie. No way, he said every time he cut his hair, that's all that motherfucker talked about was how much he got screwed over to have no money from the movie already. Oh, the, the actual pirate. The pirate. The pirate. Pirate wanted money.They wanted money for the movie Oh yeah that's not hoe it works I know your life in prison. Yeah I know And you are like, where's my money? That's my likeness, bro. I want to share a <crosstalk> you are just a criminal That's a fascinating story from that dude like he was like a, you were the prison, Barbara. God, you probably got the best stories ever because I've got the best of the best. Listen to this. Uh, that's great. Um, one other thing, Rob, that I wanted to touch on, we can move on from the bin laden thing. like I said, we don't have to talk about this all all day is we obviously have a lot of, uh, military veterans on the show. There's a common theme that we found in particular among this generation. It says the same thing. Why are we always ask the same question? Why did you decide to get into the military? 99 percent of the time. It's nine 11. Nine 11 was, was what, why we got into the military and then you kill the guy who was responsible for nine 11. Uh, does that feel like winning the lottery or do you like. Well, I, I didn't, I joined. Should they pray to you <crosstalk> That's another thing too that, that because we had the controversial dumping the body in the ocean because the thing was they didn't want to make a shrine to bin laden that they could worship, but they didn't get to realize these are well hobbyists. They're not allowed to worship anything but a lot. That's why you can't depict Mohammed because they're worried it's a false idol. So they never would've done that. So that's kind of funny, but, but no, no one, no one prays me I hope God no. Yeah. Well, hell express ticket. Exactly. If you have Rob on Snapchat, please send him your prayers for the next couple of weeks. It weird that you become the Guy who. I mean because let's face it, even today in today's world of bad guys, there isn't. There still isn't anybody as big as that. I can't remember. I mean, over time Hitler <inaudible> Latin. I know the best, I'm saying like, you were the one who got <crosstalk> Nobody ever got the one shot. I joined Uh, I before 9:11. I joined in 1995. Did you go straight to the teams? Yeah, I did. I did. I went to bootCamp in January, 96 and I graduated budge by December of 96. That sounds really cold. And uh, uh, well I went to buds in April, so I had a summer hell week, which is better. It's still the pacific cold all the time. But summer hell week is better at. Yeah. You know, you ever go up to santa <inaudible> when <inaudible> a little bit. Yeah yeah What a race, that's outstanding I can tell <inaudible> you know bro vibe and And then did an awesome youtube videos. So yeah, but then I wasn't. I was on my third deployment on nine 11. I was in Germany. We just got done in Kosovo. And we all we knew is everything just changed like we're. No, no more. No more you comes where we can go party in Lithuania hanging out in Norway. It's like we're, It's done right. We're going to the mountains and the desert. That's about it from that one man. Imagine if you tell <inaudible> back freaking how many years is that's? I was in seventh, seventh I was 15 years from Bin launch thing. Yeah fifteen years back to a port back and be like, hey, in 15 years <crosstalk> badass. We had heard about him when we like the first deployment I did, I just finished sniper school. We went to Albania because there's a big exercise and Bin Laden said, will have a car right there we will try to hit this so we're going to try to hit this. So we're doing sniper coverage for them. You know, not a high threat. But I remember hearing Bin Laden name, knowing who <inaudible> was way before nine 11. I just think at this guy, this guy. Then all of a sudden nine 11 then. And then again, like I said, it's, it's the guys from team six or delta or, or, or, or, or someone that's going to go get him. It's cool that I'm, we're trying to invent new tactics to see how we're going to jump in to that cave complex with 50 fighters or whatever its he's never going to be a mission to a house in a resort town on stealth helicopters. Yeah. Not in America. <crosstalk> That was cool though. Those helicopters were bad ass. They actually authorized me to, to mention them too in the, in the book so I could talk about them. But it was- That was where I was going to ask you the second <crosstalk> To cut this I was like I wasn't to know all of that- Because its like outfit. You <inaudible> right? Yeah. Or age 60. It was just because we went out to Nevada. I'm not allowed to talk about that, I was in area fifty one, We was saw them because we were convinced we're going to get shot down and I was like, we were, we would planning around this planning table and I've talked to the guys like guys and me of all people saying we need to take this more serious, like we're, this is a one way mission. And so they kinda got all calm, and then we flew out to wherever and we came out of a hanger and saw these things And I saw <inaudible>, and its the first time you've ever seen it? Anyone seen him and Holy shit. And I said, wow, this is a. I guess it's 90 percent. We might not get shut down because I didn't know we were going to go to war and a transformer. <crosstalk> The first thought like we actually do have shit that we kept secret and then we kept the secret. No kidding, God bless America now and- Say it, can you <inaudible> its area 51 so it rhymes with it. I know where it is, But when, we, we're two minutes out to Bin Leiden's house and like we opened the will, the aircrew. Thank God they were there. The army, who knew how to open the fucking door, we never would have figured it out. <inaudible> You look, you look down and just like you got a resort town. I know there's a golf course behind us and it's like a, It's not, it's not like going to a house in town and <inaudible> I don't care if there is old town I just remember thinking, man, this is some serious navy seal shit. We're about to do we are fading a town. I read books about this. I'm fucking doing it. All right. I heard I can <inaudible> for 500 pounds So you guys have any obviously we were looking, was there any <inaudible>. No, because one of the things that sort of eased our mind was most of their weapons are looking towards India. Really? No one's going to invent from Afghanistan. I mean is the thoughts there, but then again, what does me worrying about a missile going to stop the missile? <inaudible> <inaudible> You just going to be like pip, Game over, dead .Were they more reluctant on just the secrecy of not knowing where he was, What we didn't want to tell the Pakistanis is that so, cause one of the choices was a unilateral, multilateral op with Pakistan.There is no way that works. You tell they'll go get him. They are taking him out somewhere else. Yeah. Not taking them out, but like moving him. Yeah, of course. So when you get back to United States in how long you do stay a as a navy seal before you ended up getting. Well, we had a bunch of stuff go down, um, in the aftermath because it turned into a big dog and pony show. Everybody wants to see the guys that did it. Everybody wanTs to meet him. That was weird for us because we, we're trying. We were low key, believe it or not. And then we started making moves. But um, but then in August, um, extortion, one seven was shot down. So that's, you know, we killed Bin Laden may and August, we lose 31 Americans to include the dog. And I'm never planning funerals. And then we lost an entire troop that you can't replace that experience. So I'm- You fucking heroes did this. Oh yeah <crosstalk> .That's a huge Blow <crosstalk> arrangers were in a fight and they went in and they said they put all fifth and 50, all 31 guys on one bird because they said dashed too is going to get shut down dash one might not. So we're going to roll the dice and that just sucks. It happened. And then we had to replace an entire troop. So I, I, I was a team leader. I wanted to move to another squad so I can get right to Afghanistan because I knew I was going to get out in January, but I extended to August. Just sort of a kind of try to like, uh, an offering. I'm saying, look, I'm not getting out because of this. I'm going to go to war one more time, but I am getting out in August so I'm going to go to war one more time. So I did that. And then I got on terminal leave and realized I don't know what the hell I'm going to do now. That's why I founded you're grateful nation because in that six months I realized, well, not everyone can get out and sell hats and people are gonna buy them and, and believe it or not, just because you're a seal, they're not going to hire you either, even though we all think they will because we're entitled because why wouldn't we be? <crosstalk> Its the <inaudible> Yeah so the, it was before. Um, I didn't do 20. I did almost 17 and uh, but it's time, it's time to get out, you know? Sure. And I guess where I'm going with this, after that is when you kill the most, the biggest high profile person in the world, The only super villain. How do you Come down? Right? I'm going to start <inaudible> from now. He is the only one <crosstalk> That doesn't the rest of life seem boring at that. No, it's good. I'm good. Um, I was like, I'll take that question. Np, like the adrenaline thing. I'm over it. My very last mission was my first hell ambush, which should be awesome because all ambush is like the second thing you learn when you join the <crosstalk> You can get more basic tactics. Yeah. And that's what you doing <crosstalk> but we are getting shot at. We're killing them and uh, no adrenaline. I'm like, I got, if I'm not getting adrenaline, I got to get out. I'm going to get complacent. I'm going to, I'm going to have someone shoot at me. I'm going to walk up to them assuming I'm going to shoot them. I'm going to get blasted. I got it's time to leave. So the adrenaline thing, I'm good. Um, I am a Washington redskins fan, so I get enough of that. Especially with Alex Smith as your quarterback. You know is- Five yards out <crosstalk>. Um, cousins is having a big year. I wish, I dunno. Whatever. They got agent Peterson. He's doing well. I'm held to the reds. I'm a fan of cousins. Yeah, he's, he's good. He's should have kept good. He's good. Yeah. I can see that perspective, right? where there's a certain like I think I'm good and, but, but the cool part about that is like what you're doing post all of this and not trying to be a family or anything. I just like I'm super respect guys that have these crazy experiences in life and then are you trying to use their shit days and all this other stuff to like provide for other people in the community that need it- The <inaudible> be more awareness about the veteran community and that people aren't fucked up. There's guys out there like you that know 17 years and they fucking teams and you're like a go getter. You're an inspired, you are an educator. Like those are the people that I want the veteran community be like associated with not this fucking pill popping. That's exactly what I'm saying. Bushtit cause like, yes, there are some people out there and there's some bad eggs and there's a lot of guys that have issues, but the only way we fix those issues if we bring the whole country together to focus on fixing these guys. A lot of these companies that we've sent veterans, two are at first surprised that they're not getting some PTSD, crazy guy that's going to shoot the place up they are getting the guy that has an NBA and that's the narrative. That's the narratIve that we've heard that we fucking sit in fortune 500 meetings and the narrative is, well, we tend not to hire veterans because everybody's afraid that they're going to shoot the place up The opposite You fucking kidding me? These guys have NBAs and DAs, and they're fucking crushing business. And to your point about speaking about leadership, these guys have fucking lead either a team, a squad platoon in fucking combat, the most complex dynamic environment in the fucking world. You don't think that they can manage some HR issues.Get the fuck out here bro. And that's a whole thing too, Like if the perfect plan that you came with is working, something's wrong. You can combat one of the rules that anything you do can get you killed, including nothing. So being able to adjust in the fluid environment like you're saying, they can do this now and no one's shooting at them, they're going to be just fine, but the, a lot of employers need to see that and it's working 100 percent and I think guys like you and a lot of other people in the community are hopefully bring that awareness and am about it. What was the coolest experience you had when you got back from America and everybody knew that it was you? I fucking <inaudible> landed Yeah yeah <inaudible> that video <crosstalk> That was sent to me, we got uh, we did get leave after the Bin Laden raid and I was kinda down in the dumps and one of my buddies sent me that video that, that shouldn't <inaudible>. How long did that come out after A weeks about. Oh fuck <crosstalk> it was quick <crosstalk> like- He was like I think with Paul Rudd and <inaudible> the movie the day after the Bin Laden Raid, some like this. And they said, um, what's it is to be that guy? So they shot that video and shit. That's just pretty funny. No, I've been fortunate. I've been able to do some to meet some cool people, the kid rock thing, and he's a buddy of mine, so that's why he asked me to call him, bob. That's the hardest part about getting to know kid rock is calling him Bob. That's his real name. You're like <crosstalk> yeah am bubble level that everybody. But everybody we know that that knows him. You know johnny primo, right? Yeah. He was working security for them. They said they love the guy. <inaudible> Bob dude, <crosstalk> I want to play guitar Bob <crosstalk> I get down to <inaudible> the other person I heard you were partying with the other night was Dave Grohl. Dave grove, my man too. No way, he's awesome Dave is awesome Well Dave is great because I met, I met him the first time at one of the super bowls where I met Rob Niggle so and well I'm name dropping like a son of a bitch. Fine. We do it all the time <crosstalk> all the time. We wanted him really bad for range 15 and he turned us down and we've never <crosstalk> But got a picture with, so Dave Grohl asked me if I wanted a shots of tequila and I'm like, of course. And then he take a couple shots. He said, well, do you want to go meet a Paul McCartney? I'm like, yeah, yeah. So I got a great picture. I've got a great picture of me, Dave Grohl and Paul McCartney. But the best part of the story is I sent the picture right to my sister younger sister, who's a huge Nirvana fan, huge Beatles fan and a huge food fighters fan. And um, I sent those Dave Growl and Paul Mccartney.That is so cool. And oh my god, that old lady looks just like Paul McCartney, <crosstalk> it is Paul McCartney. Everybody gets old. There's nothing you can do about it. Well you know, there's all this like, um, you know, Dave said some political things and people ask me if I care. I'm like, I did not care cause I care about their music. And he's a great dude. Some of Paul McCartney and John Lennon jerking off together recently. Not recently, but a story that came out. It's like, yeah, but the white album, I don't give a fuck exactly. I don't care if they jerking off <crosstalk> <crosstalk> in bed together, something like that. Like, yeah, yeah, I've read that story. And I was like, well what's the gay thing? Certain people can't make this. So she's made it jerked off in bed and they're like, we should write this song. Kaboom. Yeah. And that's your favorite song <crosstalk> <crosstalk> <crosstalk> I don't know what exactly is strawberry fields means. But I'd love the song, What happens when ranger and seal semen mix and we just put that in something. I feel like that would be good. <crosstalk> <crosstalk> The jokes are writing themselves <crosstalk>. So many branches I want to fuck with I know it We should all jerk off together- I know I always <inaudible> <inaudible> you know my god. Yeah. You wIll not believe what happened <inaudible> with the <inaudible> Uh, no, no, I have not. What about, so a presidential wise? did they always ask you to stump for presidents when that comes around election season and all that stuff? Uh, they asked me for quite a bit of that stuff too. And as far as presidents go, Do you stay out of politics? No, I, I, I'm not going to ever run, but I do try to get as many veterans as I can. Uh, I helped him out. I'm a chairman of a super pack that helps vets get in because it doesn't matter which side of the aisle you're on. A vet will get into the room with someone to try to solve the problem, which is not the case in Washington. Like either side was party first, country second, which is crap. Yes. So, um, you know, a lot of stuff with John James up in Michigan is running against Debbie Stabenow. She's a, he's a west point grad ranger apache pilot. Yeah. 400 combat missions now he's a business owner. That's, that's the kind of guy we want. The trump family was up there a couple of weeks ago. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Uh, more veterans is good as far as the political thing, I just think is the problem solvers. Yeah. You see, you see, you stay out of like, hey, I'm, I'm for so-and-so, right? Um, sometimes, but I will, I will Campaign, I don't know when this is going to air to the midterms might be over, but I'm on the, I actually right before <crosstalk> totally something for John James. I want to, my guy in Montana to win to be Jon Tester. I want Matt Rosendo, a couple of others that I'm helping out just with my veterans all veteran. And you're from Montana? I am from <inaudible> Montana, yeah. What really any thought of ever living back there? Yeah, I think I might. I might eventually moved back to that country and it's gorgeous. Do you hunt? I do. I grew up hunting elk. We should go kill stuff. Totally. I got some good spots. Good hookups. Sure, has some Jameson <crosstalk> it was actually funny too. One of my horrible jokes that I probably shouldn't tell was people asked me what's the difference between hunting <inaudible> and hunting and elk, and I'm like, I've never shot an elk in its sleep. Yeah. Yeah. <crosstalk> I love that joke in. The weird thing is, and I never talked about killing people in the episode, but fuck it, let's do it. I feel some form of remorse. Shooting a deer, right? I like avatar, that bitch every time Where I'm like, thank you so much for my family. I'm like super into it. People never fucking once. I'm like, I just. The second one gets fucking hall appointed in their heads. Splatters across that stupid fucking mud fucking hut. I'm like, next one, let's go. And that's all <crosstalk> I actually respect animals. People <crosstalk> when you're in that environment. Get fucked <crosstalk> kill <crosstalk> all The first kill I ever saw I didn't even get one of my guys in CQB in, in the house, but in his first kill too. So we, we were, this is our first time in combat and, but we had a brit with from the SBS named Andy. Andy. Andy, Andy had, he had a, a death cloud that followed him like every, the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. everywhere he went, he got in big fights where he'd seen this shit. He's been some bad stuff and then when my friend shot this first al Qaeda guy we ran into in this house and he's got sit in there sort of stun and he's like, Andy, go check that guy. And he calmly walks over. This white legs goes, oh, he's fucked mate. He's got nine bullets in his face unless this, this, uh, do you wish you could ever go back at any point? No, I'm good- So you have dreams about that. Um, I do. I, I don't need to go back. Um, but there is no feeling better adrenaline wise then getting to a house and we're going to go in and we're going to hunt people. That's like the coolest adrenaline just as they were doing some shit. I'm serious. I think that's where like the calm before the storm comes. Because you have more significant experience. Maybe like, you know, I think I have like over 400 something direct action. So like I participate in that a decent amount and it's always like, you know, that that offset and phil walk to the door And you get to the setpoint At setpoint appear where you want to call it and it's like, okay, we're going to go loud or white light or MVVGS and this thing is just like that heart starts to go like this. But it's such a calculated <crosstalk> slows you down. It's a drug. it's like nicotine or caffeine. Its always You're going to be fucking better. Like let's get this and then. And then the chaos ensues. And then the aftermath like, golly, this is like a fucking movie. It's, when we were rangers every night and that was always some of the best nights we had. It was when we were in a house, but all of a sudden we hear the song going off. It's like all the branches are fucking getting it. This is gonna turn into a good night. It's like <crosstalk> There's a guy with a gun <inaudible> <crosstalk> easy kill he is dead. He is really fucking dead, I see medal that's a goddamn wheel chair, you know cocky <inaudible> when you had your older brother with you and somebody was starting shit with you. And so you would, you would just mouth off because you know, you had your older brother with you. That's what, that's what it's like when I go out because as soon as they're like in my area, we got you. It's like, let's start some shit.We gotta <inaudible> <inaudible> fight because they are playing engagements for like you get like do get shot in the leg and we pull them off target and we're like, we could go get in the gunfight or <crosstalk> are easier. I want to go home and get arm. We got, we got into a fight in Ramada one time and we had these two rangers. Where Ramada, by the way? We were there, oh, six <inaudible> and <inaudible> You did by the way is this, is this true before you tell the story that you were on over 400 missions? Yes. Wow. So we had these two rangers one carried the rounds. One carry the 84, but the, a cargo stuff. Yeah. And the guy carrying the goose was six, eight.And the guy carrying the <inaudible> was about five five. And he got to the point, people don't believe there's a drainage ditches and rivers in Iraq, but we got to this point where I'm, this poor kid was carrying his truck. He didn't, think he had carried a gun. He just stopped jumping <crosstalk> walked through everything and just fuck live my life and like 30 missions into it. we got into a spot where we could finally fire goose into the, um, into the damn building. And so we he given HT to this kid and he's blasting it and give him another one. Hit him again, and then is that okay, we're good. We can clear the <inaudible> It goes, can we just fire one more? It's like, yeah, fucking fire one more hit. So we fired one more. When we got in there, it looked like a scene from like Halloween or something. Just really bad Inside. But we got back and as, as a, as a leader I told were given the debrief, I told the range with the thing. I was like, well why don't you debrief this or you can learn how to talk to the guys. And just explain what happened on target and he goes, alright, so we made entry in the first three guys were Carl Gustav. <crosstalk> Its funny, that's funny That's hilarious that I feel like that's the, like the range of school go to is when they fucking throw a thousand rounds on you. The first engagement ranger school. Your like cyclic. Get rid of it. He's like, stop shooting <inaudible> fuck you <inaudible> <crosstalk> shit That's were the Jameson stuff. Yeah Yeah. Give it a go. Not Sure. What that is, but give it a go. No driving obviously no driving. No. I uh, we got Ubers. Yeah. We're going from here to a sports bar to watch a baseball game. I don't know if you remember him telling me it was <inaudible> cut this if not, whatever. Cool talking about it. But we've been doing this show for three years. I cursed out somebody for you got pulled over. Uh, no. I got woken up. But there's a backstory to this. Nobody wants to talk about charges being dropped. They want to talk about arrested for DUY first? Correct. I have a, um, I'm from butte, Montana. I went to high school with all four of the officers. Thank you very much. Um, I haven't, I travel all the time and so my, my, I have a system. I get to the hotel, Pippin ambien, brush my teeth, get into, always be in bed with the ambien and turn the TV off. So I popped the MBN, forgot my toothbrush. I'm like, I can make it to the gas station's right over there, drove there, it's closed, drove to the next one. IT's open. I walked in, I got get, am on film getting a get rade and not drinking and, and, and a toothbrush. I get back in my car and I'm like, my dad's shitty little Nissan. And I'm like, okay, this is it. I got to go to sleep. So I went to ambien, sleep in the front seat. No way. And so they pulled me out there knocking on the door and recognize these guys and I'm still ambien up and said, well, we're going to take you up there and I, you know, whatever we did it. and I said, well, give me a breathalyzer. We find they wouldn't or <inaudible> fucking mug, mug shot. Yeah. And they did. And so then it got dropped eventually. But it's like, yeah, that happened. I remember that story, and my, my comment on the podcast, it was again years ago was I said, who the fuck arrest the guy who kills a <inaudible>. I was so angry on the podcast, you don't arrest that guy. I went to high school with these guys. So we have two high schools month in butte, butte, Montana at butte central and viewed high. And those cops from both schools. And one of my really good friends is from butte high. I went to butte central. And so, uh, I called him the next day. I'm like, hey, I'm kind of fox, what do you recommend? He goes, well, I recommend next time you get a deal, get arrested by a guy from <inaudible> high.Thank you wow Just making a joke. No, I mean, it all went away. It's a, of course <crosstalk>. I was still surprised that the <crosstalk> <crosstalk> breathalyzer that's fucking horseshit <crosstalk> liquid Ambien did the Roseanne's career dude. All right. Put it in the dumpster. She went on Regan and talked all about. Oh she did? Yeah, yeah, yeah she talked about the ambient and she's just said late night twitter. I actually kinda liked the girl. She's, she's very self aware. And on that note too, I'm, I'm, I'm the first one to tell you when I drink too. I like, even when I get asked about the, uh, the ultra in the NFL, I said, look, let me get some straight from butte, Montana, white kid. A lot of these athletes have experiences I don't have growing up. and every time I've been in handcuffs I fucking deserved it. <crosstalk> So I understand that. I'm not saying I don't drink it, I'm just saying that wasn't one of the cases here. Exactly. Managed to make the daily mail and some news in New Zealand or some shit. Exactly. I was just surprised that anybody, they just wake you up and say, hey Rob. Well, but <crosstalk> have done <crosstalk> I've done a lot of free training for a lot of swat teams, especially up in Montana and I assure you that there have been moments they could have arrested me and didn't, so we are still good, i love them all- <crosstalk> on the board. Yeah were in a bar the other night. Jesus, we're not going to say which one it is. That's, that's Math, local place- I heard is called area 51. Yeah. No, that's actually the gay bar. I love that call back. It's called a call back it is rob. What's your passion in life right now? So I know you got the nonprofit and all that, but like we're do you not to be a high school, professor or teacher, but in 10 years like we're like where, Where do you see yourself going from here? What do you want? My passion is the foundation and the best. The best email I get every, hopefully twice, three times a week because it's an individualized program is when staff sergeant so and so got a job at <inaudible> and his wife hits, hits, hits me up with like, we couldn't have gotten a second career without a grateful nation. Thank you. That's my passion. And then hopefully we've expanded in 10 years to a point where it's not just special operations rangers and seals and green bridge. It's everybody for everything like that. And then, um, I just got married a little over a year ago <crosstalk> <crosstalk> I got married in August and July.sort of Uh, when did you meet her? I met her at a speaking gig <inaudible> You had a single staunch. I did. Oh my god. How legendary was that? That had. Well, I am married now, so we can talk about this later. <crosstalk> Was the No, Was over under 500. She was funny. She was funny. Um, I met her at a speaking engagement and it was, the story wasn't really out yet, so I just met her there and there was just, it was so funny. So she was hosting, her company was hosting in my speech, so she's hosting it herself and um, there was a girl with and after my speech I went to the beach bar, I had this other girl with me and my soon to be, well my wife and three years was there too, and she was being respectful to the girl that was following me around because, so how long have you been and Rob been together? And she's like, oh, we're not, I'm just, I'm following him. And she's like, well, where'd you mean? She goes, Twitter? And my, I hear my wife go, oh, stand up, fuck by bitch. You're out of here <crosstalk> .That is a boss ass shit. That is a Boss that is move. What's it like when you go to dinner parties with people you don't know and you're introduced? Um, can you <inaudible> everybody in the room? It kind of sucks because it generally, when we go to dinner, I have to eat dinner before dinner because I'm not going to get a chance because it's all, it's all um, hey, I don't mean to bother you, but. And hey, real quick, one more. I bet it's awesome, but I'd rather people be nice than not be nice. I, you know, I ran into a navy seal two nights ago in Miami to thing and he was kinda dude drinking, kind of yelling at me about, you know, I love you. We worked together, but I hate you but I love you, but I hate you. I'm like, when you getting out of the navy, man, he's like, I retired at 30 in one week. I'm like, what are you going to do now? And he goes, I don't know. I'm like, just shut up and give me a call. We'll figure this out together. <crosstalk> why would he, why would he hate you? Well, it's the maze. It's the coolest. Its one of those <inaudible> when people ask about seals and how they think of me, I'm like, let me explain navy seals to you. If we took 10 random seals filled their driveways full of a dump truck each full of money, five of them would bitch at you because you blocked their driveway <crosstalk>. So it's like you're not going to keep them all having. And nobody's talking about with you. It's the same thing too when we go out. There's a lot of people who are just like, oh, hey, what's up Matt? I don't watch your videos or anything <crosstalk>. I've never seen your movie or anything. I don't, I don't know what you're <inaudible> tipsy. By the end of the night and they're like, <crosstalk> <inaudible> doing something. And same with you, Rob. You've done something that they wanted to do in their lives where it's just like after a few drinks then it really comes out of like, <crosstalk> you did what I wanted to do <crosstalk>. <inaudible> promotes insecurity. Right? And that's exactly right yeah. <crosstalk> Yourself, You can't be comfortable with that But I mean if we all work together, we could take over the world, if guys <crosstalk> Did America <crosstalk> Well that's like the first guy I met him from, uh, from Texas. When I joined the navy, I had a guy who was my roommate buds. I don't know shit about shit up from Montana. I met this dude, my roommate. And uh, he said, he said, hey, I'm Robin <inaudible> .I said where are you from, <inaudible> am fro Texas, so where are you from? I said, I'm from Montana and he goes, Montana, what? Uh, what part of Texas is that? <crosstalk> That's good, the one that is not there definitely the one the very top part of it now you are in New york That seems weird. Right? It's good though because New York is, um, I'm in, I'm in there less than half of the year, but I'm up there a lot in what I like about New York is the anonymity. There's 9 million people that don't notice each other. You can walk outside In New York. Nothing. Exactly. Nothing, I mean, will they run into people all the time there, but I mean, it's nice. You go into a, pub the bartender notices and he's going to buy drinks. That's just the way it is. I've done, I've tried to be the big dick and do bottle service some of those clubs and someone notices a picture up of $2500 tab, just shit like that. And even the local pub near, um, my wife and I go in there quite a bit and I have never paid for a drink there. It's like three years that we were in New York. We go there and she went there one time without me, but she had her, her bridal party and she goes, so Rob turns out if you're not with me, they do. <crosstalk> i just drop $300 bucks I thought I was hot shit <crosstalk> that's hilarious. Yeah, that's the thing about celebrity. And like when people get divorced, I like with women, not that my wife watches those shows on <inaudible> one, but she watches those shows on VH one and they will say the same thing when you're not with the guy anymore. It doesn't matter anymore. No. And you're invisible. And it doesn't matter if you're dating the most successful banker there is or whatever. If he's not famous or isn't the guy in his field, nobody really gives a shit. Think about it in the celebrity sense. I just want to think about in the sense of just murdering bad people and like how many bad people can he put in a ditch- That is actually a, It's a <inaudible> you know what weird to <inaudible> you and I were talking about this before, like when you're in the bubble, when you're in the community and everyone else is doing it, it's normal. This is normal, Right? So almost try to do a competition he said he kill three guys last night, we going to kill more whose got to count. Then he gathers the civilian when you make a gun. Joking. I've actually probably near to illustrate is fucking hilarious though. There's helmet cam footage which I can never show. There were people casing us from a whatever. I have my, my, my NVG laser on him as he's running because they were trying to fucking ambush us. These assholes and I'm screaming at my not screaming quietly, assertively delegating my opinion to my fucking partner and I'm like, if they run that way, third squad's going to fucking kill him and we're not going to get the kill list <crosstalk> because we're keeping score. I mean the little bird came in and smoke shadow them. I was like, that's all really pissed off that it wasn't me pulling the trigger as if it was competition of it is me versus you have who the bad guy. No the DOD should have a running website shows everybody's killed. It's like a video game for bad people. It would be amazing if somebody given it also gives something to aspire to that <inaudible> now man you got he got 50000 points for that been logged <crosstalk> I mean I killed way more assholes on the lower level, but he's got the big one and thought you know its funny too though is like. And I know there's people out there saying certain numbers, I still don't know how to confirm a kill. No, we used to there is no one in special operations unit. It is near fucking impossible. What defined kill, right? Because it's like in a building pop shots. Ranger squad, like this. Yes. How do you define that? Who got to kill? Or even a dude that pops out, you maybe put the first round and then like your whole fucking fallen team runs out and shoot it and Then you're falling. Like, who defines that kill? I stopped, I stopped carrying a pistol because you know, obviously the training was your primary goes down, go to your secondary. But I realized by the time I go to my secondary, my three buddies already aced. Yeah, I'm good. Instead of a pistol, the extra weight I'm carrying, the cleaning rod gun went down. Let me clean this real quick. You guys know have some fun over there, my buddy used to tell the RV like before before going out like, oh, you gotta bring a con firmer <inaudible> it's the officer that confirms all the kill them. I don't need another officer. You wouldn't make guys young guys go search like asking for the conformer hey, anybody where we can <inaudible> <inaudible> change of much <inaudible> because they had huts card, right? You marked on the people whatever I need to carry a card as if now did I just murder someone in that room? Yes, I did. yeah, I kind of remember that shit. I got it. I got it. Well, there may or may not a severe case of something in my book that might be why it's 17 months, possibly, allegedly, that, uh, uh, SS seeing an individual on a target that was a very bad guy and I took alternative methods for finding DNA. It turns out, it turns out a mercy kill is not a mercy hill. We will won't share the story because the book's not out. But after that, if it makes it, we will tell that story. I don't want to ruin the surprise. I will tell the story no matter what. Once the book comes out and go, fuck, it's not in print, it's, it's got to come out Its fiction. It's got to come to the book will come out. I'm just saying I'll tell a story of whether or not the sensor or not, but yeah. So longterm, which, what's your hopes and dreams now at this point? Well, I mean we're good. Like I said, I want to, um, do the foundation. You're grateful nation. I'd love to continue speaking. I'm just feeling you've been doing that for a very long time. The speaking thing is not as, I don't get up until the Bin Ladin story, you know, I, I'll get up and talk about high performance teams, why we were good and how it applies and like in the military, like the way that I say to the, to a lot of these corporate sponsors and stuff that to whom I speak, I'll say, you know, be good to each other, keep morale high. But like when we were working on was, hey, nobody wants to work for a dick, knock it off, so just make people want to be here and morale get along with each other, love each other little stuff. Like if there's a problem and we'll solve it in the team room, man to man, don't get physical with each other, just air, air it out. Don't bring it up there and you know, leave it at that. Keep morale high planning, you know, this much planning as much preparation, emotionless decisions, and never quit. You know, just keep moving forward like that. People want to hear the Bin laden story, but they love hearing training stories. They love hearing buds and they love that. They love as opposed to shooting a bunch of guys, like we're always having fun doing. They want to hear about the guy that's tied up and thrown in the pool and what, what makes you want to be there and stuff like that. So I just talk about shit like that. And then um, I want to keep doing that if I can, which is why I would never really want to be a seal because like I, I, I don't mind the water, but I don't like the water. So I'd rather just run into a door with <crosstalk> <inaudible> No we've been actively trying to convince Tyler Gray, one of the actors on the <inaudible> two author a book as the first fake seal to play a seal and TV to have a book. Do you think this is a good idea? That's an excellent idea, I think I would be hilarious. I want to write the forward <crosstalk> we need <inaudible> into this how a former army ranger and small mission units, operator played a navy seal. Yeah, the book <crosstalk> played a navy seal, navy seal <crosstalk> the- Imagine the movie about the book, about the <crosstalk> Claim that was <crosstalk> St James street <inaudible> What it was they all smelled amazing. Yeah <crosstalk> <crosstalk> he's on the forward. If, if we could get Tyler to do it, he'll write the forward before every mission <inaudible> very very reasonable <inaudible> called 74000 dollars. That's funny. Wet seal stolen valor <crosstalk> <inaudible> The wet seal story in the book, the book, the book slash the movie will listen Rob This is honestly man, you, you made our, our entire year being on the show. You were the most requested guests ever. Vertical. That's his words, he will make my year if we just get, tell some more stories over a good glass. You know we're doing that. Okay. Yeah, yeah. I look. It's civilians like me who are just <inaudible>. This is the happiest I've ever been in my goddamn life. My kids being born. This is red. This is awesome for me and I'm super grateful that you came out. I usually do this thing at this point in the show called the drinking bro of the week. However, your name has been requested so many times. It's like the drinking bro of the century year, everything. So it's you, Rob O'Neill and seriously thank you for, for being here. Thank you for what you did you are a humble, awesome guy on and off camera. So- And then where can people check out your organization? Um, your grateful nation.org is the foundation, but everything is underneath Robert <inaudible> dot com. Okay So ONEILL that uh, that last name with the two L's and Shaquille have really screwed that up for me. <inaudible> Robert J dot com. And then it goes for everything from, from you're grateful nation to my speaking engagements, testimonials to like the apparel stuff that we do here. <inaudible> So start selling this on. We've got to start selling this on- We have to <crosstalk> We got to get this on the margins are great.I mean, am thinking, I'm thinking maybe my nomination for 2018 bros men over here. Oh, maybe. Maybe. Yeah, I think we've got a serious contender. Yeah. I think for bros man of the year behind you is a lovely trophy. We give it out to the drinking bro of the year. Bros man trophies is sitting over there. It's resting of there. It's like a Heisman brings like <crosstalk> bring it on up here, Jared. It's heavy. It's got some weight to it. That's awesome. It has. It has breadth. The first, the first bozemanii Rose man winner, which was Jimmy long, who streaks? The army. navy game carrying a drinking bros Oh yes Well deserved sir spend the night in jail. We bailed them out <crosstalk> A few nights in jail. yeah, <crosstalk> that'll do it. So yeah. Your name could be engraves on that by the end of the year <crosstalk> for something if you. If you see Rob out in a bar, make sure he's not buying his drinks because that's not a <crosstalk> With a credit card. Do I love buying the rounds. Really? Oh yeah. I love <inaudible> we going out to dinner tonight. It looks so looks like everything's on Rob lets get out of here for Rob O'Neil that's Taylor Patterson. Good night everyone. 

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+You're listening to Roads From Emmaus. I'm Father Andrew Stephen Damick. This podcast, which is produced in Emmaus, Pennsylvania, features sermons and other talks about the exploration and engagement of Christian faith with the world. Jesus Christ both journeyed with his disciples on the road the biblical Emmaus and broke bread with them, thus revealing himself as both our fellow traveler and the incarnate word of God. Here's what we've got for today. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, one God. Amen. One of the acquisitions that certain Non-Orthodox Christians level against the Orthodox is that we worship idols. They say that when we bow before an icon or kiss it, or sense it, or light candles before it, we are worshiping that icon and giving to it what is due to God alone. Idolatry is one of the most ancient of sins. Giving worship to the creation rather than the, to the creator. It is condemned in The Holy Scriptures many times, being the most visceral kind of apostasy, a betrayal and abandonment of the one true God, giving devotion instead to something else. If it is true that the Orthodox are idolaters, then that means that we are not even Christians. You cannot worship both God and something else. You have to choose. On the Sunday of October that falls either on the 11th or immediately after, we make commemoration of the 7th Ecumenical Council, which meet in the year 787, in the city of Nicaea, to answer exactly this accusation of idolatry. I won't give you the full details of the arguments made, but I will summarize. The accusers, who are called iconoclast, a word that means icon smashers, made the argument that because God is invisible, you cannot depict him, except symbolically. So, to point to an icon and say, There is a picture of God, and especially then to venerate it is idolatry. The Fathers of the council, that is the Orthodox, instead declared that because God had become incarnate, that is because the son of God became man, he is now visible in Jesus Christ. And, because he is visible, then that means we not only may depict him, but we must depict him. Not to depict him is to deny the incarnation. Not to depict his Saints is to deny that Christ is in them, too, and thus, all veneration given to an icon of Christ or to the Saints is actually given to the one depicted and not to the material object itself. When you kiss the hand on an icon of Christ, you are kissing Christ. The incarnation is a central doctrine for Chris- for Christians. We must believe in it, if we are Christians. We cannot deny that God became man and be Christians, and we cannot deny the place that material, physical reality has for us and be Christians. What we do with our bodies and with the material world is directly dependent on what we believe about who Jesus Christ is. Because the one true God took on matter for himself by giving himself a human body, then that means that all creation becomes the vehicle for the divine presence. And, it means that, especially where we see that divinity manifest, we give honor. We worship God alone, but we honor and venerate those people and things in which he as sewn his presence. So, this has many practical applications for us. We spoke already about icons. Iconography is central to who we are as Orthodox Christians because it witnesses to the incarnation and helps to connect us to it. But, this truth about God's presence in materiality is not only about icons. We can also see how he is present in the Holy Mysteries, especially the Eucharist, which is his body and blood. But, this truth about God's presence in materiality is not only about what we call the sacraments. One of our problems as Christians living in the 21st Century is that we have tried to push God into one place or another and leave him there. We can visit him, but that is where he remains. For those who do not make and venerate icons, their God basically has no presence in the material world. He may be felt or perceived in some sense, but he is not here or there in particular. He may be everywhere, but he is not present in this icon or in this Saint. But, we as Orthodox Christians are guilty of this, too, although not in the same way. We are happy to welcome God into our temples, onto our altars, into our icons, et cetera, but when it comes to other elements of materiality, we expect him not to be present. Instead, we exile him. I could mention a number of ways in which we are exiling God. Such as, when we do not fast, exiling him from our bodies, or when we do not make our homes sanctified with prayer, exiling him from our families. But, I will mention, now, probably the worse problem that we have in this regard, when we do not generously return to him what is already his own, we exile him from our finances. Money can be an uncomfortable topic, but that is why we need to discuss it. For many, it's a festering wound that we want to put a band aid on but not cure. So, it's uncomfortable, but let's heal it. Given what we have said about God's presence in all the material reality, especially in certain people and places, we must also acknowledge that he is present in our possessions, and that includes our most tightly held possession, our money. And, this presence is especially strong in those things that belong to the people of God. Why? It is because our very presence as baptized and anointed members of the royal priesthood brings the blessing and presence of God wherever we are. Your possessions become holy because you are the ones possessing them. Because you belong to God and bring with you the presence of God, then he is more present in the things you own. The Earth is the Lord's and the fullness there of, but he is especially manifest in us, his Church. So, it is clear that God is present in our possessions. God is present in our money. So, knowing that God is present in what we have and knowing, also, that our task is to offer up the material world to God to as for his blessing, then that means that we have to get serious about offering our money. Let's be frank. Although, it certainly in the case that there are among us those who are indeed serious about offering up their money to God, most of us aren't. No one will judge you but God, but you can also judge yourself. Are you actually serious about offering to God what is his? Is what you're giving a true sacrifice, or are you giving merely a donation? Are you paying dues? Do you think that what you give to God is somehow contributing toward being eligible for a membership? Consider your income. Consider what you offer back to God. You, yourself know whether what you are sacrificing is appropriate to being a member of the royal priesthood. God is present in this material world, and he is present in us, the royal priesthood, and he is present in what we touch and what we possess and maintain because we bring his presence with us. As Orthodox Christians, we do not believe in a theology in which God is separate from the material world, and which, therefore, suggests that our possessions really are ours to do what we please. What is in your home is sacred. What you wear on your body is sacred. What is in your checking account is sacred. It is sacred because we have been declared by him to be sacred, and this sacredness is transmitted wherever we go because of our common priesthood. It is for this reason that in the Holy Scriptures God called upon his chosen people to tithe, to give 10% of their income to him. This was the called upon sacrifice that was proper to the royal priesthood of God. This was the appropriate way for them to show that they understood the sacred presence of God in their possessions by offering them back to him for his blessing. I know that some people deny that tithing is appropriate for Christians, but we have to ask why. Do they deny it because they have a true theological argument for it? Do they deny it because they found a place in the New Testament in which the Lord or the Apostles set that aside? I would welcome hearing such arguments. Alas, I suspect that those who deny this do so because they simply do not believe deep within their souls that God is present in this material world. So, that means that the material things that they own are really theirs and not Gods. I will not say that it is merely because they are greedy or envious. Only God knows that. It is true that The Holy Fathers of the Church actually did change the teaching on tithing that was received from the Old Covenant. That should not surprise us as there are many things which were change in the transition to the New Covenant. Here is what Saint Irenaeus says in the 2nd century; The Jews had, indeed, the tithes of their goods consecrated to him, but those who have received liberty, that is Christians, set aside all their possessions for the Lord's purposes. And here, Saint John Chrysostom speaking about someone who complains about tithing; What a load of disgrace does this expression imply? Since what was not a matter of wonder with Jews has come to be so in the case of the Christians. If there is danger then in omitting tithes, think our great it must be now. And other Fathers essentially say that giving 10% was for the Old Covenant, but because the New Covenant is superior, we give even more. Let's be clear. It's not about a percentage. It's about a mentality. If your mentality acts as though God's presence… presence in the material world is either false or doesn't matter, then your offering will reflect that. But, if your mentality is in alignment with Orthodox Christian theology if the incarnation, then your offerings will reflect that. It is true that not all of us can afford to offer 10%. Some of us live on the financial edge. I get that, and I've been there. But, most of us can afford it. And, it's not really about what we can afford, but rather about what we will offer to God. Knowing that he is present within us and within it. 10% is not a law anymore. It is true, but that does not mean that we do less. Indeed, as much as we are able, we do more. So, I challenge you. I challenge you to believe in the incarnation of the Son of God, Jesus Christ. I challenge you to believe that his incarnation effects all the material world. I challenge you to put that into… belief into practice by keeping and venerating icons. I challenge you to put it into practice by receiving the Holy Mysteries, especially the Eucharist. And, I challenge you to put it into practice by offering to God what is already his, in which he is already present in a manner that is truly worthy of us, his creation-blessing royal priesthood. And, I challenge you to tithe. Will you join me and my family? Let us make this Holy offering together. To our Lord Jesus Christ who creates all things and his present in all things, be all glory, honor, and worship with his Father and The Holy Spirit now and ever and onto ages of ages. Amen. Let's face it. We Orthodox Christians, especially here in North America are pretty bad… <laugh>… about giving our financial resources to Christ through our churches. There's just something about it. You know, certainly, we could simply say that we're being stingy, that we're being selfish. Um, we could also point to certain historical contingencies, the fact that many of our churches find their origins in places where the, the church was paid for be the state… you know, established churches that were being supported directly by the government. And so, people got out of the habit of giving. Um, and there are certainly many, many times where we could point to in Church history where we see that giving and especially tithing, giving that 10%, gets kind of muted or abolished, you know? Um, and these times are plentiful enough, uh, along with the immediate recent memory of a very meager way of supporting the Church that a lot of people feel justified by saying that it's not appropriate to ask Orthodox Christians to give in any really vigorous way to their churches. Um, but, all of that is based in a kind of mentality that is ex- very problematic spiritually speaking. If we are Christians, if we seek to be like Christ, if we really love our God, then we're going to turn over all of our lives, everything that we have to the service of the Lord. We should not be asking, What's the minimum? Right? Or, even, What's the maximum? But rather, how do I dedicate what I have to the service of the Lord? And, when we think about it in those terms, then that changes the way that we function in terms of money. Um, and you might say to yourself, Oh, well, you know, I have all these bills. I have to take care of my kids. Or, whatever, whatever. I get that. You have to take care of those things. That's totally understandable, but the reason you take care of those things is because you're serving the Lord. You're serving the Lord. That is the project. That is the reason why you are taking care of your children, and paying the bills that you owe, and so forth. That's the reason. And, when that's the reason, then you're not going to say to yourself, Well, what's the least I can give, you know, and be a member in good standing at my Parish? That mentality becomes nonsense when you understand that all that you have is in order to service the Lord. So, when you ponder what it means to be truly Christian, when you ponder the fact that we are the royal priesthood, and so everything we touch becomes sanctified by our prayers, becomes sanctified by our presences because of the presence of Christ in us, then it makes sense to look at our financial resources and to give them over to God. It makes total sense, right? We have to get out of this mindset that is so grasping, so, uh, unwilling, you know, so, so, tight, so restricted, right? We have to get out of that mindset and, and move into a mindset of true generosity, which is based on the, the belief and the action based on that belief that what we have is given to us so that we can serve the Lord. And, you know, as I mentioned in the sermon, we really do violence to our core theology of the incarnation, if we act like our physical resources, our material resources are irrelevant or only, sort of, you know, just a little part of our spiritual life, right? You know? It's like saying, Well, you know, I'll make the sign of the cross, but I'm not going to make any prostrations because that's just too much. You know? Or, I'll pray at home, but I'm not gonna come to church, you know, because that's just too much. No. No. No. We believe in the incarnation of Christ, and so that means that matter is sanctified by virtue of God becoming man. And matter, therefore, being sanctified, and we, being joined to Christ… It means that the matter that is us… <laugh>… and the matter that is the stuff that we possess is also sanctified, and if it's sanctified, it's the Lord's. It's the Lord's. So, the question is, how do I serve the Lord with what I've been given? Speaking from a personal point of view, I… I have functioned many times in my life, sometimes for long periods, um, with this kind of restricted mentality, you know? Oh, well, I know I'm supposed to give, but really? You know? That much? 10%? Are you kidding? But, when, um… When I made the decision to tithe, to give 10%… and, it was a decision that I made together with my wife. When we made that decision, not only did we find that God took care of all of our needs, but we found that our hearts changed. Our hearts changed as result of the action. Right? Don't wait to feel generous… <laugh>… before you begin to be generous. Be generous, and then watch what happens to your heart. Right? The action comes first, and then the heart will follow it. So, take that step of faith. Give as is really appropriate for an Orthodox Christian to give. You know, the Holy Fathers tell us that, because we are in the New Covenant, we now should be doing more than in the Old Covenant, and, if the Old Covenant had a tithe, then that means we should even be doing more. <laugh>. We should even be doing more. 10% is maybe too little. So, may give your courage and enable you to take that step. And watch, watch how he blesses you, not… I'm st- I'm not talking materially. He might bless you materially. I don't know. But, watch how h- your heart changes. Watch how you are unshackled. You're released from bondage to selfishness. It's really a beautiful thing and so worth doing. God Bless you as you give because he first gave to you. This has been Roads From Emmaus, and I'm Father Andrew Stephen Damick. I'm a priest of The Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America serving in Emmaus, Pennsylvania. I'm a husband, and a dad, and the author of multiple books. This has been a listener supported presentation of Ancient Faith Radio. 

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+The Bill Barnwell Show is presented by ZipRecruiter: the smartest way to hire. Welcome to the Bill Barnwell Show. I'm Bill Barnwell at ESPN. We are here on Monday, November 5th, 2018. Week nine of the NFL season is almost done. We are officially past the halfway point of the NFL regular season, so of course, this week at ESPN.com doing my mid-season awards, doing mid-season stat check-in later in the week. But instead of doing a, sort of, halfway recap here on the podcast, so many good games, so many interesting topics to talk about yesterday that we're going to talk about the week nine games instead. And joining me to do that is someone who has not been on the show this year but a contributor to the show in years past, a former colleague of mine, does excellent work at Football Outsiders. It's Vince Verhei. Vince, how are you? mr Barnwell, how are you today? It's a pleasure to have you on as always. Uh, I wanted to have you on. Of course, you're someone who covers the league as a whole for Outsiders. You hit, over the years, every single different team, I feel like, in terms of writing chapters for the Football Outsider's Almanac. But, we have some interesting games to talk about today, and we have a, we have a candidate… and I think in a lot of places might have been perceived as a possible Game of the Year candidate. So, in talking about Saints, Rams, do you think this delivered on the pregame hype? Oh, I think so, uh, you had the, the two preeminent offenses in, in the NFC- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -uh going both, both, they both showed you everything they can do to, to, to, to, to jump ahead in the game- mm-hmm <affirmative> -and everything they need to do to come back in the game. Uh, all sorts of various weapons. So, yeah, I, I think it was a, a, a very good football game. The Rams even showed us a fake field goal, which I, I did not believe I was expecting. So lets just start there. In terms of that fake field goal, obviously, uh, Rams had a short field. In that situation after, uh, Mark Ingram turned the ball over, do you think on, on fourth and four, given Johnny Hekker's success in the past, given the game situation, ignoring what actually happened on the play, do you think it was the right decision for the Saints to go for the fake field goal? Do you think, or sorry the Rams to go for the fake field goal, excuse me. Should they just have run an offensive play? Or do you think they should've just kicked the field goal and taken the points in that situation? Well, I think, uh, when you have a, a Bothell High School alumnus, like Johnny Hekker, uh, much like- <laugh> -much like myself, uh, uh, uh, as far as I know is the only Bothell player ever to play in the NFL. Um, so, I wanted… I, I always have to plug that on every show I'm ever on when his name comes up. <laugh> Um, but uh, yeah. Um, he has had a lot of success on fakes before. I think w-when you're asking, Is this the right call? you have to look at more than just that specific situation and look at, um- mm-hmm <affirmative> -look at, uh, uh, uh, uh, the Rams entire philosophy. Um- mm-hmm <affirmative> Th-they're a very aggressive team. Um, you go back to the fourth and one sneak in the game against the Seahawks, uh- Right. A lot of… most coaches would have punted there even though an easy… a relatively easy conversion wins the game. Um, because of th-the, the, the penalty for failure is so high. So- mm-hmm <affirmative> You know, this is what they do. It's what Sean McVay does. He's, he's a pedal to the metal. Can I say Balls to the walls on this podcast? <laugh> Yeah, I think you can. Yes, that's what he is. And so, i-it's consistent with his philosophy. So I, um, given that uh, uh, uh, uh, consistency, given that's what he does, I think it's a good thing to stay true to what you are. And so yeah, I, I, I think it was the right call. Yeah, um, I can't really fault you with that logic. I mean, of course did come a half-yard short or so. Maybe you could have an issue with the challenge decision that Sean McVay did after not getting the fake field goal. But I, I think all things considered, you know, if you figure that the, the logic in a fake field goal is to attempt it when the other team least expects it, I think that was a great situation because I don't think anybody was expecting the Rams to go for a fake field goal at that point of the game. In terms of the Rams offense as a whole, uh, after the game the Saints came out and they said, We were focused on shutting down Todd Gurley. Er, and in this game Todd Gurley did not have his usual numbers. 13 carries for 68 yards and a touchdown. Uh, a-as the Rams got behind, heading into the second half, they stopped running the ball as frequently. But in the passing game, six tar- six receptions to seven targets. Only 11 receiving yards from Todd Gurley. So the Saints really shut down the Rams' screen game. But overall, 79 yards from scrimmage, a touchdown on 19 touches. Is it sort of crazy that we're in 2018, and, and Todd Gurley can still have 79 yards and a touchdown and that's like, uh, absolute, you know, basement game for Todd Gur- that-that's his floor at this point? Is that scary? Um, I don't know if it's scary. Uh, it-it's evidence to me th-that this whole numbers that the best running defense in the NFL is, is an explosive offense. For sure. Uh, if you want to shut down your opponent's running game, the best thing to do is score a lot of points and force them to pass. And that is what the Saints did and I think that's… I think it's always been true for the most part. Um, at least since the 1970's or so. But, it's especially true in the modern NFL when, you know, most teams are getting closer to 30 points a game than they are to 20. Um, but, you know. I-i-it's… blowing out your opponent early is more an option now than it used to be. Um, as far as, you know, Gur-Gurley still has by volume, he's so far ahead of everyone else in the league, and he still does have value to the passing game, so it's not like you can take him out of the game entirely if they fall behind. Um, so I, um, I guess I'm not sure how to answer that question except that i-i-it's, uh, a sample that shows a lot of trends in the NFL as far as, uh, you know, getting ahead early and how dangerous Todd Gurley can be even if you get ahead early. Yeah. I mean, I think at, at any point Todd Gurley's a threat to-to really break a big play. Um, on the flip-side of that of course, Alvin Kamara is someone who we also know can break a big play. He scored three times in this game. He only had, uh, 116 yards from scrimmage. Which I'm not, maybe only had is a little much, but you get the idea. He didn't have like a, a 200 -yard game like Michael Thomas. But I-in terms of his split, in terms of the carry-and-touch, but for him he got 23 touches in this game to Mark Ingram. He had ele- ten, excuse me, ten touches. He did fumble. Kamara had the three touchdowns. Ingram had that incredible pass block. That, that basically backdrop on Dante Fowler near the goal line. But, in terms of the touches, 22 for Kamara, 10 for Ingram. Is that the sort of split you think the Saints should try and aim for, uh, over the, the rest of the season? Um, hmm. That's a difficult question. Um, Kamara last year set all kinds of num- uh, records at the Football Outsiders for-for, uh, what he did given th-the volume of his carries and volume of his catches- Right. Uh, virtually unprecedented. And of course he's, he's falling back this year just because he had to. Um- Right. He's a human being. I mean you just, when you start, w-when you start at the top there's nowhere to go but to the middle of the pack, so he's being human this year. Um, and, and, and, um, Ingram is, you know, the veteran. He-he's got more of a track record so, uh, you, you kind of take it game by game, one, you know, uh, one game at a time, one play at a time. Um, I-I'm not gonna question Sean Payton's, um, um, player usage. <laugh> <laugh> He-he-he-he is better at this than I am. So I'm not gonna quibble with that too much. Um, now that said, i-if you asked me, if I had one play where I needed to pick up a first down to win a game, I'm gonna have Kamara on the field every time. Um- mm-hmm <affirmative> But, I-I-I, like I say I'm not, I'm not gonna question wh-what Sean Payton was doing. Yeah, I think that's fair. A-a-and I do think that there's got to be a balance, right, in terms of how you use Kamara. Like you said last year- There's got to be a balance and you also want to, you know, y-y-you used to talk about, you know, making sure the quarterback stays safe. Well running backs take a bigger beating the quarterbacks and- Yes. -you know, uh, use both guys to make sure both guys are available in January. Yeah, and, and I think they, they sort of, they help Drew Brees in different ways, right? Wh-wh-where Mark Ingram can have that terrifying pass block, a total back, uh, pass block. But, Kamara is going to scare teams from blitzing and sending pressure at Drew Brees just by being a threat in the passing without ever having to touch another defensive player. And Ingram can catch the ball as well, maybe that's a little too simplistic. But, you get the idea. A-and like you said, Kamara last year, 6.1 yards per carry, 10.2 yards per reception. This year, only 4.4 yards per carry, 8.4 yards per reception. Uh, his-his individual DVOA numbers are down, but of course still playing at an extremely high level and still an extremely impactful back when it comes to this, this part of the Saints' offense. Now, I brought up Michael Thomas. The numbers are incredible even heading into this game. He had, like, five or six incompletions all season. It's ridiculous. And then on this game, 15 targets, 12 catches, 211 yards. The game-sealing touchdown for the Saints. And, of course, you know what I'm gonna ask you about, Vince, that he scored a touchdown, he went to the end zone, he grabbed a flip phone in a similar fashion to Joe Horn from 2003. This seemed to spark a lot of discussion on Twitter. Did this bother you given the game situation and given, uh, the fact that it cost the Saints 15 yards and will likely cost Michael Thomas several tens of thousands of dollars? Oh, where to begin with this? Um… <laugh> <laugh> First of all, did the play itself bother me? No. It did not. I think it was awesome. Uh, Joe Horn, somebody got ahold of him and asked him. He said it-it moved to tears to let him, let him know that people still remembered him. Aw. Um, you know. L-life out of the limelight can be hard for ex-NFL players. mm-hmm <affirmative> And, uh, you know, that little, that little tribute, you know, meant a lot to Joe. Um, I think it's really, really stupid that this is a penalty, that, that fines are involved. I, I, I think, um, when you look at, um, I guess I haven't seen this on the official NFL account, but ESPN's Twitter was, you know, piping this. Look at this cool thing this guy did! mm-hmm <affirmative> Well, if it's getting attention for your league, if it's advertising your league, if it's promoting your league, why are you fining people for that? <laugh> That's just dumb. Yes. Yes, yes, yes! Yeah. I agree 100%. Now, on top of all this, uh, I was… in, in the bar I was at, I was watching, I was focusing on the Seahawks game at the time. Uh, and the, the other TV that I could easily see had the uh, uh, uh, Broncos-Texans game on, so, uh, watching live, I only saw like the highlights of the Rams-Saints game, so I-I certainly didn't see the audio. And I am so, so, so, so relieved that I did not have to hear Joe Buck ranting and raving about how this is the end of the world and it-it a pox on, on society and the ills of the young players and how selfish this was, because I don't need to hear that in my life. And my life is better without Joe Buck's voice in it. <laugh> That's very fair. It was so strange because I was, I was listening to the audio myself, and Joe Buck and, uh, Troy Aikman I think it was, they didn't even mention Joe Horn for like ten minutes after the play had happened. It just, you know, I'm not expecting everyone, you know, if you're someone who's a fan, who's become a fan in the last ten years, if you're a really young person, or someone younger than me, which I, I qualify as a very young person, I guess. I mean, maybe you don't know Joe Horn, and that's fine. Uh, it's cool that, that it got brought up, it's cool if you mentioned it, remembered it. Um, but like, Joe Buck is not a, a young person. Troy Aikman was already out of the league, I believe, by 2003, and already, I think, doing commentary. I mean, these guys should know that, that Joe Horn… that this is the Joe Horn celebration, what he's referencing. And that, that kind of shocked me even more than this sort of, uh, ridiculous indignance about Joe Horn, or about Michael Thomas possibly incurring a fine and a penalty for the play. Well, I can't really speak for Aikman, because like you say, I'm pretty sure he was retired by then. There was a pretty big story when Joe Horn used the, the flip phone in, like you say, 2003. Joe Buck so often gets things wrong when they are happening right in front of him live, that I don't know how you can expect him to get things right that happened years and years ago. <laugh> Uh, we, we, we were actually in our Audibles At The Line column, which I will plug here. Sure. Uh, Football Outsiders staff trades emails as we watch games every Sunday and then publish the emails on Monday. And, we had a discussion about how terrible Joe Buck was l-long before this- mm-hmm <affirmative> -uh, when I, I, I believe it was Michael Thomas who scored a touchdown, but as the ref signaled touchdown, the Saints were playing, the fans were all cheering, Joe Buck was insisting he was out of the five yard line and had no idea their points had been- Yes! Yes. -on the board. And this is not the first time he's made that kind of mistake. He's very, very bad at his job! He actively makes games worse. And so, he, he, I, I, I, um, it's par for the course. Uh, when the playoffs come around and I have to watch a game he's calling, I usually put on the Spanish commentary. I don't speak Spanish, but it's a huge improvement. Um, I, I, I don't know what else to say about this except if you expected more out of Joe Buck than this, then that's on you for having your expectations too high. <laugh> That's very fair. I, I, I, I can't disagree with your representation of the situation, I will say that much. Um, in, in terms of, I mean the celebration, I thought it was awesome. I-I have no complaints. I know it was a relatively close game. In a situation where you're playing the Rams and, and you're pretty comfortable that, that they're going to move the ball on you quite a bit, I understand that there was a penalty. The Saints were up ten points with four minutes to go. I don't think the 15 yards would have mattered all that much. And they ended up not mattering all that much because the Rams took over the ball at the 42 and went four-and-out to end the game. An-and the guy who made plays on third and fourth down to end the game, not someone I was expecting. PJ Williams, who, even though he won Defensive Player Of The Week last week, he… this was the best game to me of his career. Because in that game, a week ago against the Vikings, he had a pick-six on a route where Stefan Diggs decided just to stop. Just decided to, to post up and chill. And, and, and uh Kirk Cousins did not think that was going to happen, and PJ Williams took a pick-six to the house. In that game, he was burnt repeatedly up to that point. In this game, he was pretty good for the entire contest. So, I mean, i-i-if PJ Williams can play well, and if the Saints' secondary after the Eli Apple trade, when they're not playing the Rams and the Vikings, who are two really good passing attacks, if they can improve, are, are the Saints at this point a team that you think is the best team in the NFC after what we saw from them on Sunday? Uh, that is a very difficult question to ask. Yes. I think there's… th-there's a three way… there's three teams right now, uh, that can lay claim to that, uh, or at least, a-a-a-t least throw their hat in the, in the discussion. And the Vikings a-are third, and they can also make it a fourth team. But I think the Rams and Saints obviously might be there. And I don't, I think the Panthers are right behind them. Um, I-I-I think th-those, those three teams right now, I mean, the, the Panthers right now clearly are the third of those teams. But if they, you know, it wouldn't take much to change to put them above the other two, or at least one of them. So, um, I, I, I think after those four teams is an awfully big gap in, in, in the rest of the conference. Um, but I-I think the key, everyone was saying that-that, you know th-they're to some degree they're right. It's a huge win for the Rams, or for the Saints, because now they have the tie-breaker and this makes it more likely they will end up hosting the NFC Championship game. mm-hmm <affirmative> And I think it's, you know, obviously they have the tie-breaker, obviously that's huge. But, when you look at the schedule of these two teams, you have, um, the Rams play the Seahawks at home next week, then they play the Chiefs in the game everyone's been eagerly awaiting, the, the Mexico City Monday night game. Yes. Then they get their bye, and then the last four games, or five games are at Detroit, at Chicago, Eagles at home, at Arizona, and then San Francisco. So, they're gonna be favored in probably every game they play, maybe not the Chiefs game, but, uh, clearly in, in everything else. And then you look at the Saints schedule, it's much harder. Uh, they, they, they're at Cincinnati next week, then they got Philadelphia and Atlanta at home, then you have three straight road games- Dallas, Tampa Bay and Carolina. And then they close with the Steelers and Panthers at home. So those, that last three games of Panthers, Steelers, Panthers, that is tough, man. So- Yeah. Um, I, I, I still think there's a very good chance the Rams pull out ahead. And, and like they say, if the, if the, you know, the Panthers can, can sweep the Saints in those games, then maybe they're gonna jump ahead of, uh, jump ahead of New Orleans, and that, uh, that would help the Rams out. Alright, Vince, let's get to another NFC South team here in a moment. But first, let's talk about our pals at ZipRecruiter. And guys, you know what's not smart? 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Yeah, I mean, let's talk about the Panthers who I-I have to admit, this was a team I was skeptical of before the season. Don't think the numbers in 2017 match up to their record. And, I was specifically very skeptical of their offense. I thought the offensive line injuries were going to be a big concern. I thought that Norv Turner was a very uninspired choice for a offense with Cam Newton at quarterback. Looked at history, did not see a track record of him succeeding with any sort of mobile quarterbacks. And maybe he didn't really have any up to this point as a pro. Uh, I, I, I'm sorry, as a, a pro head coach and offensive coordinator outside of maybe Alex Smith years and years ago in San Francisco for a season. And, very happy to say, I am quite wrong when it comes to the Panthers' offense because we've seen week after week, this is one of the most entertaining offenses in all of football. Now granted, e-everyone's gonna look good against the Buccaneers, and the Buccaneers defense is truly awful, as we saw on Sunday, but this is a team that dropped 36 points on offense on the Ravens, who have a quite good defense, last week. This is an offense that I think, uh, really coming into its own, really getting a lot out of their weapons and exceeding, at least for me I don't know about you, my grandest expectations heading into the season. I was, uh, probably higher on most on, uh, on the Panthers, but- mm-hmm <affirmative> -they also exceeded my expectations too, and that offensive <inaudible> Tampa Bay was just so much fun. Yes. So creative. You know, in the rounds, jet fleets, options, re-reverses, uh, th-th-the reverse that, that Curtis Daniels had that was almost a true double-reverse. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, technically it was only two hand-offs, th-the play-action did start left, then go right, and then come back to the left. And then, of course he made it a triple-reverse taking it all the way back to the right and down field. Um, but yeah, they… what Norv Turner has done to, to take their unique play-makers… I don't know if they have the best weapons in the NFC, but they have- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -a, a, a diverse set and, uh, a-and getting th-the most out of what each guy can do. Um, he's using Christian McCaffrey just as a straight up running back, which is a great idea. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, also, also, using him, uh, uh, uh as a pass receiver. Uh, the drive McCaff- McCaffrey had, and I do stress this, McCaffrey had this drive. <laugh> Uh, he took a sweep right for uh, 30 some yards and uh, there was, there was a review that he may have stepped out of bounds. It was ruled he did not. mm-hmm <affirmative>. But he broke about like a half dozen tackles in that play alone. Uh, that got him a first and goal, and then he just went sweep left, uh, shotgun hand up at the middle, and then an I-formation dive for the touchdown- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -and it was, it was all him the entire drive. Um, you know, Cam Newton had to do very little in this game. That's not a bad thing. <laugh>. Yeah. Uh, uh, uh there was a lot of screens, um, a lot of, like I say, guys making the plays with the ball in his hands. And, of course, when Cam needs to run, he can do that too. Yes. And, you know, we, we do have to remember that yes, uh, th-this is an offense that's gonna look best when it's breaking tackles, and that means it's gonna look best when it's playing Tampa Bay because Tampa Bay is a joke. But, um, yeah, the, the, the, like you say, they've also put up big numbers against the Ravens. Uh, 31 points against Cincinnati, 32 against the Giants. mm-hmm <affirmative>. So, you know, they've been doing this for a while. Um, they are now, uh, 11th in the league at scoring. So, th-th-this is, this is, uh, you know, this is a legit thing. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. 11th in the league in, in scoring, playing an offense that's not gonna play at a super fast pace given that it is going to be a little more run intensive than most of the offenses in football. So, I mean, I, I think they're playing at a really efficient level. Cam Newton, a guy who, um, I wrote about this in my MVP column today, where I think he's just outside the top three candidates. I mean, uh, a guy who had completed under 60% of his passes as a pro, 58 and a half percent heading into the season, 67.3% completion percentage. And yes, like you said, we saw a lot of screens in this game, a lot of short throws, a lot of quick throws. That's not the worst thing in the world when you have these sort of receivers. When you have Christian McCaffrey, who's going to make guys miss after the catch. When you have guys like, uh, DJ Moore, who, who I think is really coming into his own and really finding a meaningful role in this offense after overcoming, uh, some fumble issues earlier in the year. We saw Curtis Samuel, a second round pick from a year ago, who has not been healthy. But, we saw what he can do in a limited role, uh, on Sunday. It wasn't even really that big of a game for Devin Funchess, but of course, I, I think you have to figure when they do wanna throw down field, when teams aren't getting entranced by what's happening in the back field, well, Devin Funchess is going to make some plays, and he's going to… e-eat up a lot of one-on-one coverage when you don't get a safety over the top on those deep throws for him. And you saw Greg Olsen, who was not a hundred percent, and recovering from a foot injury. Greg Olsen had one of the catches of the year in this game, I feel like. You know that, that, you're right. They have, they have a lot of weapons. It used to be, you know, Cam trying to make plays with the, the, the Ted Ginn's and Kelvin Benjamin's of the world. Yes. And, uh, and now he, he's got, like I said, I don't think they're the best set of weapons in the league, but they're, they're definitely diverse, and they're doing a fine job of getting the most out of them. I'm looking at Cam's numbers right now and yeah, 67% for Cam Newton. It's certainly an eye-grabber. Yes. Um, he's only got four interceptions. He's never thrown less than 10 in a year. Uh, 50 touchdowns, he was on pace for 30. He's only done that once when he was MVP. And he's still rushing for 40 yards a game so- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -um, you know, all quarterbacks in 2018 are having their best years ever because the, the, the game has changed. But, for Cam, he's especially having his best year ever. Yes, absolutely. And, this is, again, without Andrew Norwell, All-Pro guard, he went to the Jags. Without Daryl Williams, their starting right tackle, who was second team All-Pro last year, who has been injured for the vast majority of the season. Without Matt Kalil, who, it might be an upgrade at left tackle, given that Matt Kalil is not the best left tackle in the league, but you're still talking about, uh, you're missing an All-Pro guard, you have two backup linemen, uh, two backup tackles, and, and this an offense where Cam has got the ball out quickly on passing plays, but on those reverses, on those end drives, you have to be patient. You have to block at the right time. You have to work as a unit. And so I think there's, uh, a lot to, to give the Panthers credit for. This game, four touchdowns, a fifth Cam Newton rushing touchdown was called back for an illegal shift. On the other hand, talked a lot about the Buccs offense in recent weeks with the benching of Ryan Fitzpatrick and then the subsequent benching of Jameis Winston. This defense, this defense is, is, it's almost embarrassing. And the question I have for you, Vince, is this. The Buccs are in pace for 44 touchdown passes allowed with two interceptions. 4,904 for team passing yards allowed over the season, if it holds up. They're running a passer rating of 124.3. So- Is that bad? It's not good. It's, it's good if you're a quarterback. It's bad if you're a defense. So, over the second half of the season, they have eight games left. The quarterbacks they are playing are as follows: Alex Smith, E-Eli Manning, uh, whoever the Niners quarterback is at that point, Cam Newton again, Drew Brees, either Joe Flacco or Lamar Jackson, we will get to that conversation in a moment, Dak Prescott, and Matt Ryan. So not exactly a, a murderer's row of quarterbacks. Some guys who are about to be benched, some guys who are maybe not playing all that great, uh, you have to play Cam, you have to play Drew Brees, you have to play Matt Ryan. Those are problem match-ups for sure. Uh, over the second half of the season, would you pick the… would you pick Patrick Mahomes or the Buccaneers opponents at quarterback to post better numbers over the second half of the year? I love this question. <laugh> I love this question with all of my heart. Um, you talk about the quarterbacks who the Bucc have yet, or, are going to play, and how it's not the most impressive list. Yes. I will counter that by saying, let's look at the Buccs, the quarterbacks they have played. Oh no. Drew Brees, Drew Brees, okay, that's, that's big. Uh, Nick Foles. Oh boy. Uh, Ben Roethlisberger, no, Shane Minnitte beat by Ben Roethlisberger. Mitchell Trubisky, who is- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -hot and cold by the week. Yes. Uh, Matt Ryan, uh, uh, Baker Mayfield. Sure. Andy Dalton, and now, Cam Newton. mm-hmm <affirmative>. So, I don't know which group is better. The group they have played… probably the group they have played is better, uh, than the group they are going to play. It, it, neither is, you know, they both have their ups and downs so, um, <laugh> they have… I-i-it's been half a season now. Th-this is- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -what the Buccs are. And, and, it's not a surprise. We all, you know, at, at Football Outsiders at least, we, we had serious questions about the secondary coming in-into the season now. I don't think any of us expected it to be this bad. Yes. Um, <laugh>, but I, I, I think, uh, out of those two, I will take Tampa Bay Buccaneers' opponent- Oh, man. -to be a better quarterback than Patrick Mahomes. Yeah, I, I mean I, I thought the defense might be better this year just because they added so much to their defensive line. They brought in Jason Pierre Paul, who is not the guy he used to be, but still has eight sacks so far this year. I mean, he's doing his, his part in terms of getting after the quarterback. I mean, uh, they signed Vinny Curry, who was very effective in the limited running rotation role for the Eagles last year. Uh, they drafted Vita Vea from Washington, who has not been 100%, has missed some time with injuries, to be fair. But, they teamed with Gerald McCoy, who is a legitimate superstar defensive tackle when healthy. He's not at the moment but, I mean, you get the idea. This is a defense that just… no matter what seems to happen, they fired Mike Smith. They replaced him. Uh, I, I don't know about Dirk Koetter's future here. I don't know that. I-it's hard to sit here and, and look at Dirk Koetter and say, Okay, this is his core competency. This is what he can, can hang his hat on, because it has not been quarterback play. It has not been the defense, and I don't, I don't know where he's going to make that argument as, as though this is why you need to keep me moving forward. But we will see. Uh, still plenty of time to come with the Buccaneers and, and even if they… I think they might need to win a few shootouts for Koetter to keep his job into 2019. Now, speaking of, of head coaches who are not necessarily going to keep their job for 2019, there is John Harbaugh in Baltimore, who has, of course, a great reputation, has been a, a still very functional Ravens team, still a very competitive Ravens team in a lot of ways, but we are looking at possibly now, their fourth season in a row out of the post season. They are four and five after losing to the Steelers on Sunday. And, I, I have to admit, Vince, and I'm going to ask you, and I'll start with this, if you were the Ravens and you said, We have to make a change during this bye week, would you fire John Harbaugh or would you bench Joe Flacco? Uh, if I must do one of those things, I'm benching Flacco immediately. <laugh> Um, it's really not close. Th-this is a team that, you know, the offense has not been terrible, the 16 in scoring. The defenses are very good, mm-hmm <affirmative>. -uh, second i-in scoring defense, but they're just, they're 0 and 3 in close games. Uh, they lost in overtime to the Browns, they lost to the Steelers this week, and they lost to the Saints by one point on a missed extra point. Um, so they're, it, it, I, and it's still 4 and 5- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -you know, despite all this, so, um, I, I, I don't think, you know, when, when you, honestly, when you raised the question you, you, you sent me an email last week or last night as we were talking about the show, uh, talking about changes and this. A-and before that, it never even occurred to me John Harbaugh's job might be in danger. Um, I know he's been there a long time, and I know that, like you say, this is his fourth non-playoff year in a row, but unless he wants out, which is possible- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -he may be burned out because coaching is hard, um, you know, I, I, I wouldn't make a change at all on the coaching staff. I would, I would- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -trust him to, to do what he's done and just realize that, you know, you're not going to make the playoffs every year. It, it, it's very hard to do. Um, so, yeah, out of those, I would, I would bench Flacco. And, I've been a Flacco critic over the years and- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -I don't think, I don't think he's been that bad. Um, he's, you know, he's, he did score, you know, the nine points against the, the, the Browns is a bad sign- Yes. -um, but, and, and, and he's had some other struggles but again, they're 16th in scoring, it's not like the offense has been a joke. mm-hmm <affirmative>. This has, this has not been Oakland or Buffalo. Um, they, they've just been uh, they, they've been, honestly, if we're being totally honest, they've been a good team with some very bad luck. Yes. Um, I also, just to play devil's advocate, you can see how that might get tiring <laugh> after a while. This was a team that, of course, was very good with some pretty bad luck last year. 9 and 17 with a 10 point, 4 win, Pythagorean expectation. Now, of course, if I'm talking to you about it, if I'm being honest, I don't think that is enough over a year and half stretch to sit here and say Well, they're cursed, or John Harbaugh can't win close games. I don't believe that myself, but I can imagine how that might get tiring, uh, if you are the Ravens where you're sitting here and saying Well, our, our luck has gotta improve one of these days. We gotta get back to the team we were a couple years ago. We have a great defense. Our offense is pretty good, not great, but we know we, we can score from week to week if we have to, here and there. Um, and even in this game. I mean, you, you look at, at how they played. It wasn't like their offense was bad, necessarily. And, it wasn't like they made some obvious mistake or they, or they made some terrible decision that I can point to. But, I mean, maybe you say, well, Joe Flacco didn't see a wide open Lamar Jackson in the end zone for what should have been a touchdown on the first drive. This was a game where the Ravens had eight meaningful drives, five of them went on to the Pittsburgh side of the field, and they scored 16 points. And not only that, I mean, it wasn't even a game where they had a moment where you would have said, Okay, well, they obviously, t-they kicked a field goal with Justin Tucker when they should have gone for it here. It was fourth and, and three or four or five yards pretty much every single time they ended up kicking a field goal or punting or, uh, there wasn't really a spot where I would sit there and say, Oh, well they made a wrong decision. So I don't, you know, is there something you think the Ravens didn't capitalize on in this game that maybe they should have? Um, you know, I have to be honest, I did not see a ton of this game- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -so I don't know if I can answer that, uh, give that a, a fair and honest- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -answer. Um, uh, I think it was more as, as the big picture, which like we say, this has been a good team with some bad luck. mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, um, that, that goes to why, if I was gonna make a change, um, I would, I would say let's see what our rookie quarterback can do because- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -in the big picture, Joe Flacco has been mostly in middleman quarterback for several years now. Right. Really, ever since they won the Super Bowl in 2012. Yes. Um, I, I, I, I… it may have been your show, I, I forget which show I was on, but I, I said Joe Flacco, he's certainly not the worst quarterback in the NFL, but he is the most boring. Yes. Absolutely. And, now we go to Lamar Jackson, who's probably not the best quarterback in the NFL, could be the most exciting. You would think. mm-hmm <affirmative>. So, um, you know, he, he would change the offense, he would, you know, a-all the preparation any team has done to play the Ravens this year- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -gets thrown out the window as soon as Lamar Jackson's made the starter so- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -uh, I, I, I still feel like doing that would be kind of a panic move. Uh, they get their bye week now. Then they go Bengals, Raiders, at Falcons. Uh, due to go at the Chiefs, which is no fun, uh, and then at the Chargers two weeks later. But they also get the Buccaneers and Browns so- Yes. -there's still a bunch of winnable games in their schedule. Uh, I don't necessarily like their odds. I think they're a long shot right now but, you know, I, I, I don't think that you have to, I don't think you have to do a panic move at this point. mm-hmm <affirmative>. I don't think you have to either, but I think this is when I would do it because I think at some point they're gonna make a change. I-it might, might not happen until after the season, but we know they want to move on from Joe Flacco. You don't draft Lamar Jackson unless you are planning on cutting Joe Flacco. Really, the first time his contract becomes playable to cut, which is going to be during the 2019 off season. You mention those teams, and I'm not even saying in terms of winnable games but just in terms of the quality of those defenses. Look at DVOA heading into the week, has not been updated yet for week nine's results, but heading into week nine, those defenses you mentioned, the Bengals are 25th in defensive DVOA. The Raiders are 29th. The Falcons are 31st. The Chiefs are 26th. The Buccaneers are 32nd in defensive DVOA. That is a five-game stretch against some really mediocre defenses. So, if you get Lamar Jackson, and you say, Okay, well, right now we have a bye week, we have two weeks before we have to play another game. We get two home games against the Bengals and the Raiders, uh, who are not great teams, by any means, teams we can beat at home if our offense is functional. I think this is the time you make that switch. You get a bunch of easy defenses to play against. You get two weeks to prep with Lamar Jackson. You, you don't have to bench Joe Flacco during a game if you think you owe him that right. Uh, th-this is the opportunity to do that without having to, to take him out because he's struggling. And, I, I don't think that it's necessarily going to solve their problems. I think they might have issues with their weapons. I think that they, uh, their running game has been inconsistent, and, and I don't think that Lamar Jackson is necessarily going to be a franchise quarterback from day one. We… With the limited sample we've seen so far, he's been, you know, okay in obviously a very gimmicky role, but, I, I just think if you're four and five, if you don't have great odds of making the playoffs, you have to go for the higher variance option. And, with Lamar Jackson, we don't know what, what he's going to be as a rookie. But e-even if he struggles, a-at least you gave yourself a shot at having a possible top ten offense to go with your defense, as, as opposed to going with Joe Flacco, where at this point, like you said, over the last six years, we know what Joe Flacco is at this point, and that's mmm, that's meh. That's m-maybe mediocre, it's maybe okay, but it's never gonna be great. Do you think it's too late to get meh over as Joe Flacco's nickname? <laugh> Joe meh Flacco. Yeah, uh, no, you, you make a good point, especially with the higher variance option there. Um, I, I, I see all the arguments. I… the one thing I will add is I am not certain that, uh, the front office and the coaching staff are on the same page with the Lamar Jackson pick. Yes. I think that may be one where Ozzie Newsome, in his last, last, uh, uh, go-round there, you know, the quarterback was in the board, and felt that he had slipped so far, and he couldn't pass up on the value. I'm not sure that's the pick Tom Harbaugh would've made, and we'll never know the answer to that question of course, um, but I, I think that may be the one where some wires got crossed, so if, if that's true, if, uh, uh, Lamar is not necessarily Harbaugh's guy, you know, that's less incentive to make the change. But, I guess we'll see how it plays out. Yeah. And I mean it seems like it could be, with Ozzie Newsome retiring, could be a, a regime change coming up in many different ways for the Ravens. Now, Vince, I-I'm gonna ask you a tough question. I, I don't… I'm gonna give my honest answer. I did, I did not know the answer to the question I'm about to ask you. But when Ben Roethlisberger went down injured in this game, did you know who the Steelers backup quarterback who was going to come into the game was? Uh, no. <laugh> I did not. I did not either. So, I'm happy that you were on the same page as me. I knew it would be, I knew it would be one of the two. I knew it would either be Josh Dobbs or, or, or Mason Rudolph. I just didn't know which one. Um, and, and I saw Dobbs come in, came in, threw one pass, and then Ben came back. Yes. It was a 22 yard completion. It was a nice throw. I mean, if this is Joshua Dobbs's career, that, that's a good one to go out on, 22 yard completion. But, um, I mean obviously, it just made me think when he went, seeing Ben Roethlisberger writhing in pain with what looked like a shoulder injury, ended up just being, uh, out of breath, but you just think, Oh, I mean, this, this is such a, a team that has so much to play for, has so many veterans who are, are star players and just, if Ben Roethlisberger gets hurt, this is over. I mean, this, this team cannot win without Ben Roethlisberger, right? Well, that's true for most teams, um, you know, I was, you know, <laugh> we did the- someday we'll see a backup quarterback win the Super Bowl. <laugh> One, one day we'll see this. That's fair. Fair fair fair. Um, but, uh, as, as I recall, um, when, uh, Dobbs was a rookie last year, and his numbers came out better in our projections than you would think based on his draft status. Really? Um, yeah. I-I-I'm saying this off the top of my head, and it's been a year and a half now, so, um, <laugh> I may, I may be screwing this up, but I, I wanna say that he, he was our, like our sleeper pick in the draft. Um- Interesting. -so, a-and plus, he is a rocket scientist. He is legitimately an aeronautics engineer. So, it's really cool to think that <laugh> someone like that could be a successful football player. Um, so that, that's really all I know about him. Um, he, he completed his one pass, like you say, against the Ravens, so good for him. Um, and, and, you know, he's an un- he's an unknown, so we'll see. mm-hmm <affirmative> Uh, I was talking about the, uh, Washington Huskies quarterback, Jake Browning, with somebody, and, and- Yes. -you know, he's had a very, very, uh, four-year starter at UDub, I, I believe he's gonna finish at the Pac-12 leader and everything, all the, all the major counting passing stats. Um, but for all that, he's probably not gonna be a very high draft pick, and we were talking about what his NFL career might be, and I said he might be one of those guys who can hang around for a decade as a backup as long as he doesn't have to play and he doesn't get exposed. mm-hmm <affirmative> Um, the-the Chase Daniel type. Um, so, but, uh, and the one that has to do with Josh Dobbs is you never know with these guys, until they hit the field, what they can do. Um, so, who knows? Maybe he'll hit the field, and maybe he'll shine. Maybe he'll hit the field, and, and he'll go up in smoke, and maybe he'll never hit the field, he'll just draw a paycheck to hold a clipboard for half a decade or more. <laugh> There are worse jobs out there, by all means. Um, I'll finish up with this when it comes to the Steelers and, and this running game. Now James Connor, uh, has been very productive. Uh, he's pretty much filled the Le'Veon Bell roll, maybe if not in terms of his talent, in terms of just the, the touches. Uh, he had 24 carries in this game for 107 yards, seven catches on nine targets for 56 yards, and a touchdown. We assume Le'Veon Bell is coming back at some point this season. It makes sense if he wants to hit free agency for him to come back at least for a few games, but assuming James Connor is healthy when Le'Veon Bell comes back, how do you handle that if, if you're the Steelers, if you're Mike Tomlin, and y-you wanna get both these guys on the field? Do you just go with Bell for the final few games and leave Connor on the bench and keep him fresh for 2019? Do you basically force Bell to play his way back into the lineup and play Connor as the full-time starter? Or is it more of a 50-50 split? Wh-what percentages in terms of the touches o-or playing time would you have for Connor and Bell once they're both, uh, in the lineup for the Steelers? Uh, Connor's a funny case. Um, his advance numbers have been very, very middle-of-the-pack- mm-hmm <affirmative> -considering how great his volume numbers are. Yes. And I, I looked at why. I never had a chance to write about it, but th-the short answer is A, he has three fumbles, which is a lot in half a season, and B, a lot of his yards have come on long runs, which get a little, uh, uh… there's a, a diminishing returns factor i-in the value of those plays of footballer outsiders' numbers. mm-hmm <affirmative> Um, so down, uh, uh, down to down, he's been fairly, uh, uh, mediocre- Sure. -and there's, there's a, a handful of huge plays that have, have boost his volume and not necessarily boost his advance steps. Now, spoiler alert. When Quick Reads comes out tonight after the Monday night game, uh, I believe he's gonna be the top ranked running back. So he had a great game against, against, uh, Baltimore, and that, that shows. So, uh, that'll be a, that'll be a change. So, uh, the point of that being, Connor has probably been, he's probably a little overrated by the masses, uh- mm-hmm <affirmative> -and, and Le-Veon Bell might be a better fit. Now, that's, uh, numerical and, uh, tactical. Um, that doesn't bring… doesn't account for, uh, the intangible, emotional side of football. I have never… I don't think I've ever seen an active player so blatantly obviously trashed by his own teammates in the press- <laugh> -on the record, uh, as Le'Veon Bell has by, certainly his offensive linemen. mm-hmm <affirmative> Um, so I, I, I don't know would they welcome him back. If Mike Tomlin says, You know, we-we're going with Le'Veon Bell this week, I don't know how that's gonna float with the, with the locker room. Um, now, if, if Riley Cooper can become a functional productive member of the Eagles after what happened to him at the concert, um, then anything's possible. But, uh, t-there's some bridges that have been burned and are gonna need to be rebuilt to make all that work. So, that's a great question, um, and you know another thing is we assume that he has been working out this whole time and, and, and is trying to stay in shape, but, you know, is he in football shape? Right, exactly. He hasn't played a football game now in, what, ten months now. Um, I guess nine months from playoffs, but… So, we don't know, um a-a-and I guess, I, when you wrap all of that up and try to answer your question, uh, my answer would be Le'Veon's here, but we're going to take it slow- mm-hmm <affirmative> -a-and work him back into the lineup, and hopefully the ideal will be, he'll be ready to go in January. Yeah. That seems to make the most sense for a guy who has missed Januaries in years passed with injuries. And the Steelers, pretty much at this point, are in great shape to make the post-season, after that sort of uneven start to the year, 88.1% chance to make the post-season, so you'd figure, given the circumstances, given that they are probably gonna come in as the three or four in the AFC, because the Chiefs are obviously in great shape at eight and one, Patriots are seven and two and have a very easy division. You figure those are gonna be the one and two seeds in one order or another. Then the Steelers, maybe the three, maybe the four, depending on what happens in the AFC South. Uh, I think at this point, we're going to be looking at a team that's very likely to make the post-season, very likely to win their division, barring a, a really stunning run from the Ravens, so it makes total sense to me. I, I, I don't think, it's not that James Connor has been as good as Le'Veon Bell, like you were saying, but I, I just don't think that he's played poorly enough, or, or he's been, you know, uh, uh, enough of a disappointment that you can sit there and say, Well, uh, we really want to leave him on the bench and play Le'Veon Bell, a guy who pretty clearly is committed to the long-term of his career, not committed to the 2018 Pittsburgh Steelers, and that's defensible maybe to you and I, defensible to Le'Veon Bell, but, I… I-it's not even like I think the Steelers offensive linemen are going to, like, turn on Le'Veon Bell and not block for him, but I-I think it's more that just- <crosstalk> Right. But, but, you know, I think it's just, James Connor's played well enough to deserve this role, and he's gonna be a part of the 2019 Steelers and the 2020 Steelers, and maybe even the 2025 Steelers if they get lucky. Um, a-and I think it's great to have Le'Veon Bell. It's an incredibly valuable backup plan to have, but, to me, I, I still think, even into January, you wanna give James Connor a, a, a, a good chunk of, of that workload, even if it is- might not even be 50%, but even if it's 30 or 40%, I think that's gonna keep Le'Veon Bell fresh, it's gonna keep James Connor fresh. Uh, and if they did happen to lose Ben Roethlisberger, or he wasn't 100%, or they lost Antonio Brown and didn't have the same level of a passing attack, I think this is a team that their offensive line is good enough, their defense secondary has been a major question mark. They played better yesterday. This is going to be a team where I think they can run the ball effectively and have that be the focal point of their offense, whether it's Connor or Bell, uh, heading into the post-season. I'm looking at their schedule right now. They scored 14 points and they lost to Baltimore in September. Yes. Uh, they scored at least 21 points in every other game. And often, a lot more. Yes. So, I, I think this falls in the category, If it ain't broke, let's not fix it. <laugh> Yes. Absolutely. It makes total sense to me. Uh, Vince, it's always a pleasure to have you on the show. Of course, you're all over the Internet, where people can check out more of the work you're doing. You can always check me out at footballoutsiders.com, especially in Audibles at the Line, which I talked about earlier, published every Monday morning during the season. Also, Quick Reads goes up late Monday night or early Tuesday morning after the Monday night game, looking at the best and worst players of every week. You can follow me at, on Twitter @FO_VVerhai. That's footballoutsiders, and then V for Vincent, Verhai. And, if you're into pro wrestling, of course, the Brian and Vinny Show at Fwonline.com, uh, looking at the best and worst, often the worst, of, uh, pro wrestling of today and in year's past. So, uh, that's what I'm doing these days. Yes. My favorite podcast on the Internet. The Brian and Vinny Show. Highly recommend it. Uh, great work as always, Vince. We'll have you back on, hopefully to talk some Seahawks. We were gonna talk Seahawks originally, and then never even got to it during this segment, but, a lot of stuff to get to and we still have Patriots-Packers to get to. So, we'll talk about that with Doug Kyed after the break here on the Bill Barnwell show. You know what's not smart? The way hiring used to be. Job sites that overwhelm you with tons of wrong resumes. Now, there's a smarter way at ZipRecruiter.com/barnwell. And right now, you can try ZipRecruiter for free. That's right. Free. Just text. Barnwell. To 246810. To try ZipRecruiter for free today, text Barnwell to 246810. Texting privacy policy and terms and conditions are posted at www.textrules.us. Message and data rates may apply. Back here on the Bill Barnwell show. I'm Bill Barnwell of ESPN. It's still November 5th, 2018. We have a new topic. Any new guest here on the show? We're not gonna have a new guest, but a frequent contributor to this show. Covers the Patriots for NESN. It is Doug Kyed. Doug, how are you? I am doing very well. How are you doing, Bill? Hanging in there. Just, uh, was up late watching this game and writing afterwards, talking about the Patriots and Packers last night. And a game that, I… it wasn't competitive, I guess? I mean, 31-17 final. Patriots did blow it open, uh, late. It was 17-17 hitting into the fourth quarter. But, it's not like the Patriots were more in control this game than I think the, the scoreline indicated. Do you think that's fair, or am I, am I maybe being disingenuous and, and sort of, focusing on the en-… the final score as opposed to the game itself? I would say that's, that's pretty fair, but, every single Patriots game, uh, maybe it's, maybe all football games are just weird in themselves. But I feel like- <laugh> -every Patriots game is odd where, the final score like, kind of doesn't indicate how the game went, but, this one, I, I guess I would kind of agree with you, even though the score was tied 17-17 in the third quarter. Um, the Patriots just kind of seemed like they were, just, pretty much waiting to- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -break the game open. And, and they really worked on the struggle and they moved the ball there in the third quarter, but, um, the Patriots defense really kept the men throughout their third quarter, then- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -obviously the Patriots really broke out in the fourth quarter. Packers couldn't match that, so, overall, I guess I would say that the 14 point differential was, was fair for this game, but, um, you know, y-you do have to, to discuss the fact that this game was tied into, into the third quarter. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. It was a game where the Packers did sneak up some big plays. They had some successful drives. They had a, a good amount of success throwing the ball to Jimmy Graham early on. Then we saw those two big Marquez Valdes-Scantling catches during the second half, back to back. Uh, that were unfortunately ruined for the Packers by that Aaron Jones fumble. And from that point, it kind of felt like the Patriots sort of put their imprint on the game. And, and part of that, of course, is their own running game, which we saw Cordarrelle Patterson play a very meaningful role as a running back in this game, of what we saw him take up last week a little in the uh, absence of Sony Michel. 11 carries for 61 yards and a touchdown, nearly a second touchdown ruled on the field as they score, and then taken back. Uh, in terms of what we saw from the Patriots and their rushing attack in this game, are you still surprised, you know, a week later, to see Cordarrelle Patterson playing a role as basically just a, a traditional all running back for the Patriots? I mean, is it… do you think there is a situation the Patriots are going to consider keeping up as the season goes on, even if Sony Michel, uh, is able to return, which we think might be as early as next week, or, do you think this is just a, basically emergency role for a guy who has been a kick returner for his entire career up to this point? Well, I was very surprised that they, they went into this game with only, uh, James Wright, Kenjon Barner and Cordarrelle Patterson as their only running backs, because I didn't think that Patterson looked that good in that role- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -last week against the Bills. The Bills do have a, have a good defense, but he really only had one good carry in that game, which really, uh, brought up his yards for carry, but, otherwise, I thought that he looked a little bit out of place in that role. But, this game, he looked much better as a running back, so, I actually wouldn't be surprised if they do continue to give him carries. You know, as the season goes along, even when Sony Michel does come back, because, this is now the second injury that Sony Michel has had this season. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Michel is the only, you know, traditional between the carries running back on the roster. Uh, they probably will Rex Burkhead back in week 13 against the Vikings, but- mm-hmm <affirmative>. Burkhead has his own litany of injury issues that, his career… I, I like the guy as a player, but, he's gotta be one of the most injury-prone players in the NFL at this point. You have to consider him that way. So, I, I don't think the Patriots can really count the Burkhead. Um, you know, week to week, so, we could be seeing a situation where, even w-when Michel comes back, Patterson still gets the carries because, he's a big play threat. Uh, he's proven that he's got, you know, a decent enough vision, decent enough power. mm-hmm <affirmative>. I think that his offensive line and James Develin really like blocking for him, because of all those things that I just mentioned. So, I-I'm actually pretty high on Patterson as a ball carrier after this game. That's not to say that he'll continue to get double digit carries every week. I think that when Michel comes back, he'll just be, kind of a, a smattering of uh, uh, carries from, from Patterson, especially since they've got James Develin as well- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -and they're getting Burkhead back. Um, but I don think this is a role that he can keep up in some form as the season goes along. Yeah. Um, absolutely. And, of course, we know Bill Belichick is very comfortable rotating running backs in and out, and relying on guys heavily for a week, and then freezing them out the next week- <laugh> -almost altogether. So, it-it's always tough to count on, but I, I think you did enough in this role on 11 carries against the Packers to show that he is capable of doing it and that the Patriots didn't need him later on this season. You mentioned the world reliable, and someone who does not come to mind when we think of the word reliable is Josh Gordon, who, heading into last week's game, the reports were he was going to be, uh, held out for a quarter because he had been late to meetings and practices. And, that may be true. But, he was not held out. And, and this week we saw he is not going to be anything but a future part of the Patriot's offense. Ten targets in this game, tied with Julian Edelman for the team lead. 130 yards of 55 yards score on the screen and go. Uh, in the second half, that kind of sealed the game up for the Patriots. And, uh, was targeted on a fade, on the fourth and goal from the one yard line. Um, wasn't complete. He slipped on the play, but, I mean, this is a guy who the Patriots pretty clearly are counting on as a focal point of this offense, even if he is, as reported, missing meetings and n-not, not being the most, uh, attentive person to show up on time to things, you might say. Is this, sort of… do you think this is a, a product of necessity and the Patriots are just stuck dealing with him, because, you know, Rob Gronkowski's hurt, uh James Wright wasn't 100% in this game. Uh, Chris Hogan has not been very productive this year. Or is it just, he's so good that they're willing to, you know, overlook it even, given the injuries? Um, I-I think that they do really like Josh Gordon. I think that, you know, the tardiness issues didn't reach a point where they had to do something. I think this is just a case where, you know, he's a couple minutes late. It's not, it's not like he's, he's missing meetings outright. It's not like he's having, uh, the same issues that he had with the Browns. Um, and they are giving him a little bit more leniency, I think, because of his past issues and because, I mean, I think they wanna give him support, but they also do definitely need him as well. Especially when, uh, Rob Gronkowski's out of the game, Sony Michel is out of the game, uh, to a lesser degree as far as his role is concerned. Obviously, Shaq Mason was out of the game. So, three of the most valuable offensive players on the Patriots roster was out of the game, so they definitely had to rely on Josh Gordon in this game. And, it was, actually, kind of interesting because I'd say that, until that 55 yard screen and go, like you said, it was kind of a, a down game for Gordon. He slipped on the fade route in the end zone on the red zone target. Uh, there was another player where it looked like there was some miscommunication between Tom Brady and Josh Gordon on another target. Uh, he was dealing with a finger issue where he said he dislocated his finger and just from watching from the sideline and talking to him afterwards, uh, head trainer Jim Whalen had to keep popping his finger back into place on the sideline, which does not sound like a lot of fun. I talked to him in the locker room briefly and he said that, Uh, yeah, that, that was pretty painful. Which- <laugh> -I think that you could certainly imagine. But, really, all it takes for Josh Gordon is to have one of those big plays to change the narrative between Eh, maybe he's not fully catching on to, oh man, this guy is a complete game breaker, and that's exactly what that 55 yard, uh, catch did- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -and, sorry if you can hear any background noise. My cat, I think, is currently playing with a toy. But I don't think I'll be able to stop him from doing that. Again, all animals and all animal noises are welcome on the Bill Barnwell show at all times. I would prefer if it were, uh, your parents dog, uh, <inaudible> that would be great. I'm definitely preferring dogs, but, but cat playing is fine also on the show. Uh, someone who has come in for a lot of criticism from Patriots fans, at least from what I've seen on your Twitter over the course of the season, is Devin McCourty, who, uh, h-had some missteps earlier in the season. Maybe some latent criticism, uh, going back to his performance against Zach Ertz in the Super Bowl, but is that warranted? I mean, the Patriots secondary always seems to be a work in progress during the regular season. Are, are there reasons to be concerned about how they're playing this season, or how they're gonna play over the rest of the campaign? Uh, I don't think so. I think Devin has… Devin McCourty had two bad games. He allowed, um, two touchdowns against the Colts, uh, both to tight ends, and then he allowed two touchdowns to Tyreek Hill, which, I would say that, you know, Devin McCourty probably shouldn't be covering Tyreek Hill one on one- <laugh> That's fair. -in this circumstance. Uh, regardless of w-where it is on the field. Um, but then, he's bounched back with three really good games. Uh, he had, uh, kind of a pass break up in the end zone, on a target to Jimmy Graham. He's in good coverage. He only allowed one five-yard catch on, on the entire day, so, he's actually stringing together three really good games now. He had the big pick six, uh, last week or two weeks ago, whenever that was. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, so, I, I think that he's really putting it together. Stephon Gilmore is playing at an elite level- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -at cornerback. Uh, he, he pretty much shut down Davante Adams. Adams, Adams did have a touchdown catch, but that was with Jonathan Jones' coverage. Um, I think that Jason McCourty is playing at a pretty competitive level as well. He lined up a 51 yard catch to Marquez Valdes-Scantling, but he also had two pass break-ups and otherwise, uh, was doing a pretty solid job there. So, I think that if anything, really, the, the secondary is, is kind of a strength of the Patriots defense, which- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -as we kind of come to, to, you know, uh, expect, the Patriots defense is getting better as the season goes along. This is usually how it goes. Uh, we'll see, you know, a-assuming they make the playoffs. How they hold up in the playoffs. But, I think there's reason to be kind of optimistic about the Patriots defense in general right now. Is there someone you think is sort of the key player on this Patriots defense where if he's playing at a high level, then the Patriots defense is going to be good, or, i-if he's not playing at a high level, then suddenly the Patriots really can't keep up, uh, on the defensive side of the ball? Um, that's a good question. I think that the, the best players on this Patriots defense are Stephon Gilmore and Trey Flowers. I don't think that will, you know, be that big of a surprise, and- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -as long as they're on the field, I think that the Patriots defense, uh, should be able to hold off and should be able to play well, but, you know, there are some other key guys in there, like Kyle Van Noy, when he's making plays, the Patriots defense is better in general. Uh, Dont'a Hightower still seems to be a little bit slow by the knee injury that kept him out last week. mm-hmm <affirmative>. He's another key guy, but, really, the two key players on that defense are definitely, uh, Stephon Gilmore and Trey Flowers. And as long as they're on the field, I think the Patriots defense, you know, should at least be fine. mm-hmm <affirmative>. In terms of what you saw from the Packers, obviously you're not a person who covers the Packers on a week to week basis, but, uh, i-in terms of how they played, did they exceed your expectations coming into this game? I mean, it seemed like they were, you know, they were team where, again, i-if Jones doesn't fumble in that situation, you know maybe they take the lead, maybe they are, uh, um, you know, t-they're in shape to possibly plot a victory in New England. Obviously, it might not end up working out that way, but, um, they're an inconsistent team. I mean, did you see anything that really stuck out to you in terms of how they played against the Patriots on Sunday night? I think it was kind of what I expected, what, when we were coming into this game, um, I-I-I thought the, the Packers might have been a little bit overrated, at least here in New England. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, just based on the fact that Aaron Rodgers is their quarterback. I mean, they were coming in at three, three and one, uh, they were definitely a little bit inconsistent heading into the game. It feels like, for some reason, I-I've watched a lot of Packers games this year, and that's me, because like, that's the way the schedule is, is working out with the Patriots. mm-hmm <affirmative>. But, I think that, they were kind of what I expected. Um, the Patriots are really encouraging them to run the ball. They went with a very light front. Uh, with Adam Butler playing a lot. He's usually more of a third down interior rusher. He was playing a lot on the early down. Trey Flowers spent the game, actually started at defensive tackle, so, I definitely wasn't surprised the Packers were able to run the ball as well as they did. Um, but I was a little bit surprised by how much pressure the Patriots front was getting, because the Patriots past rush has not been great this season. They've been okay dialing up pressure- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -uh, not good at finishing, but there were a lot of moments in that game where the Patriots were forcing incompletions and throwaways out of Aaron Rogers, uh, with the pressure that they were generating from Trey Flowers and Adrian Clayborn and, and some of those other guys up front. So, um, yeah, I, I wasn't that encouraged by the Packers performance, I would say, and just the fact that the Patriots were able to win by two scores in such convincing fashion, without Gronkowski, without Michel and without Mason, I, I just, I don't really know what to think about this Packers team in general right now. I, I don't think they were… they're definitely not as good as a lot of New Englanders thought they would be in this game. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. I mean, you remember, you, you lose Bryan Bulaga after 22 snaps. That's not gonna help matters in terms of the past rush, but I think for the Patriots, I mean, outside of that Texans game, and you can correct me If I'm wrong, and this has not been a team that they very fierce past rush for the majority of this season. All right, Doug, we'll get back to your Patriots-Packers here in a second. First, I wanna talk about our friends at SeatGeek, frequent contributors to this show. This show would not exist if it were not for our friends at SeatGeek. I use them pretty much constantly. I wanna buy tickets to see a hockey game. I don't have to buy tickets for the NFL, fortunately. I, I do have that media credential. But, travel during the summer, check out a bunch of baseball games, if I wanna go see a concert or a play, anything I wanna buy tickets to, I can head to our friends at SeatGeek. I have the SeatGeek app on my phone. I use seatgeek.com. Doesn't matter which way you do it. But as long as you use SeatGeek, you're getting a good deal, you're saving money, and you're getting tickets to you quickly and reliably. And best of all, my listeners get $20.00 off their first SeatGeak purchase, by just downloading the SeatGeek app, and entering promo code Barnwell. B-A-R-N-W-E-L-L. Promo code Barnwell for $20.00 off your first SeatGeek purchase. SeatGeek. Life's an event. We have the tickets. Now, back to the show. You know Aaron Rogers is going to extend plays? You-you might have to worry about guys getting open? Uh, we're not 100% at the receiving, uh, at the receiving position this week. Well, maybe that's not true. Maybe they're pretty close to it. I don't think Randall Cobb is the same guy he was earlier in the year. But, I mean this is- Geronimo Allison was out as well. Yeah. And <inaudible> that, um, you know, th-they're not… they still have Davante Adams, they still have <inaudible>, they still have some pretty good weapons in the passing game, but, I, I guess I wonder. I mean, if, if this is sort of the Packers team we see for the rest of the season. Do you think the Packers at least have to give some thought to making a coaching change and trying to get a, a different sort of offensive coordinator, work with the weapons they have and, and Aaron Rogers before he gets the point where he's not, you know, or he's significantly less from the guy he used to be? I would certainly consider it. I mean, obviously there's a lot of value, um, in having the same system, in having the same head coach, in, in having that continuity. But, you, you do start to think that, you know, maybe the Packers have, have reached their ceiling with Mike McCarthy as head coach and, you know, l-like you said, they do have offensive weapons. They d-do still have Davante Adams, they have Jimmy Graham. I think that Aaron Jones is a good running back. I definitely think that Randall Cobb's best days are behind him. I was not impressed with him in that game, but they are getting Geronimo Allison back. And, yeah, I mean, if this team does miss the playoffs- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -if they do flounder in this season, I 100% would consider a head coaching change. Just because, there's only so many years that you're gonna get out of Aaron Rogers. And you can't sit there five years down the line and, and ask yourself, Well, what if we did, you know, fire Mike McCarthy? And, the, the head coaching opportunities would certainly present themselves with, with guys who are, you know, who want to coach Aaron Rogers. And I think that Josh McDaniels, for instance, would definitely, uh, be willing, to, to take that job if it means getting to work with Aaron Rogers. I think a lot of head coaches would certainly jump at that opportunity and I think that there are better potential head coaches out there than Mike McCarthy. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Do you think and NFL team can realistically make a, an overture to Josh McDaniels at this point after what happened last year? That's a really good question. I, I mean, I was… that was such a bad book by McDaniels to do that to the Colts. He really kind of did them dirty there. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and it had repercussions down the line with, with multiple teams, i-including the Eagles, who, who um, you know, kind of had to resort to their, you know, third choice for offensive coordinator at that point. Um, so, it's a really good question. I think that he will. I think that he will get interviews. I think he will be considered. Uh, I think that, you know, he'll certainly have a better chance to explain himself. mm-hmm <affirmative> <laugh>. -with those teams, about why that decision was made. But, <laugh> I mean, you definitely have to be concerned hiring that guy and putting all of your faith in him- mm-hmm <affirmative>. -especially if the Patriots are in a situation like they were in last year, uh, being in the Super Bowl because, then you, there is that waiting period. So, I don't know. I mean, maybe teams would be a little bit more hesitant to take that chance if the Patriots are in the Super Bowl. Uh, if they didn't make the Super Bowl this year, then, then another team would. Uh, you know, kind of trust McDaniels a little bit more to, to hold, hold himself into that decision. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, to lock that in, but, if Aaron's in the Super Bowl, then you definitely have to consider the fact that, what he did last year and, and ditching the Colts kind at the midnight hour there. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Absolutely. Well, Doug, it's been a pleasure to have you on talking Patriots. I'm sure we're gonna have a lot more Patriots discussion later on in the year, as we get towards the first season. But, where can people check out the work you do covering the New England Patriots over the course of the season? Uh, absolutely. Go to nesn.com, uh, for all our Patriots coverage. Follow me on Twitter @DougKyed and, uh, yeah, that's about it. Y-you will not be seeing me at, at many Papa Gino's locations around New England, though. <laugh> That, we were talking about this off the air. I was gonna let it ride- Sorry for the stagger. I was gonna be polite. You know there is a prime, prime, extremely well located Papa Gino's in the Foxborough area near Patriots place. Its shameful. P-Papa Gino's is in the central part of the New England fabric, New England culture. Y-You let a Papa Gino's <laugh> -uh, going bankrupt or <inaudible> on the way out, this is a very sad day for me. As someone whose spent a lot of time <crosstalk> I'm sorry to, I'm sorry to bring that up. Uh, it's such a difficult moment. That's another podcast for another day. <laugh> We'll get to Doug Kyed talking about the Patriots later on this year. We will not be discussing chain restaurants in the New England area. But, Doug, thank you for hopping on the show. Absolutely. Anytime, Bill. All right. Thanks so much to our guests today. Thanks for <inaudible> footballoutsiders, Doug Kyed, of NESN. We are coming back later on this week. Thursday, we'll have another show. Maybe a mid-season recap. Maybe a preview of week ten. Not sure what we're gonna get to yet, but it will be football related and hey, I don't say this all the time. I feel like you guys are already listening, but just in case, if you have not called a friend, Hey, check out this great football podcast. If you have not subscribed to this show on iTunes, with Apple podcast, however you listen to podcast. If you have not subscribed to this show yet, I'd suggest maybe you consider doing that. I would greatly appreciate it. Our sponsors, SeatGeek, and ZipRecruiter would also greatly appreciate it. Our guests would probably appreciate it. But, most of all, I would appreciate it. So, as always, whether you subscribe, whether you don't, subscribe. I appreciate you listening. Thanks so much for checking this show out. More audio coming, later this evening. 

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+Welcome to episode 103 of the Ross Bolen and podcast, otherwise known as RBP 103, brought to you by Grand Dex media. I am your host Ross Bolen, here at the Grand Dex media studios in Austin, Texas with my producer, Micah Wiener. Hey Ross. It is great to be here. What a treat. Happy Tuesday. Happy Election Day. We're staying late on election day. Micah has got a cocktail going, which has never happened on the show before. Yeah, it's Compari Soda time. Let's fucking go. Let's turn it up. I normally drink pretty heavily on election night, and a uh- <laugh> That tradition will probably continue. RBP 102, 103 rather, is brought to you by MeUndies. Okay. This holiday season, you can get everything you need for you and your loved ones at MeUndies. This whole episode of the Ross Bolen and podcast brought to you by MeUndies. The underwear I'm wearing right now, MeUndies, boxer briefs, so comfortable that I almost feel bad for people who aren't wearing the exact same pair. I mean literally this pair. MeUndies uses a coveted micro modal fabric three times softer than cotton. If you've, uh, never felt it, you never felt this micro modal fabric that MeUndies uses, get ready to experience pure bliss and underwear form. So, so comfortable. So good. And, this year me undies is dropping new holiday prince every single Tuesday during the holiday season, which means you have no excuse not to celebrate the holidays right down to your very core, but why stop it undies? This year, MeUndies is launching their holiday prints in lounge pants and onesies as well. If you need a good onesie for that holiday party. Oh yeah. Christmas morning- Oh, yeah, or Christmas morning. Family wide onesies, uh, onesies. Uh, you know what, I'm interrupting you here, but- That's fine. Man, uh, uh, MeUndies, excellent socks. Really? Yeah. They sent some socks to us. I, I too am wearing my micro, I call it micro model, but I don't know, uh, underwear. Very comfortable. That sounds fancier, I like that. You don't want to go cotton ever again, but their socks are really nice. Oh yeah. Same fabric. Micro model? Model? Yeah, uh, they're a little bit of a blend, but they're, they're dope. I like them. Nice. RBP gang, MeUndies is giving you 15% off if you're a first time purchaser with free shipping, this is a no brainer. You get 15% off the most comfortable pair of undies you're ever going to wear, that you're ever going to put on and all you gotta do to get your 15% off and free shipping, and you're 100% satisfaction guarantee is to go to meundies.com/rbp. That's meundies, M-E-U-N-D-I-E-S.com/RSVP. If you're new to our show, every episode is broken down into segments which you can find with time cues below in the description. You do not have to listen to any of the 102 proceeding episodes in order to enjoy this one, but if you like the show, we ask that you go back and listen to as many as possible so that you soak up as many inside jokes as you can. Running jokes, priceless knowledge regarding animals, pirate's, life in general. We just suggest you, uh, you go back, right? Listen to the whole 102 existing episodes that are out there for you and your entertainment. You got plenty of time. You do. The great thing about this show is it's mostly evergreen. Right. So you know, maybe uh, maybe you, you don't have time this week, maybe this weekend you've got a, uh, lazy weekend with nothing going on. Fuck yeah. You're mildly watching football, but you don't want to listen to Jason Witten on Monday nights because he's terrible. He is bad. And, you just catch up. Binge, listen to three or four of these during the game. There you go. Cooking dinner. It's good. Love that idea. Lots of time. Follow us on Instagram- And we're on Spotify as you mentioned- We are on Spotify now. So, you can, you know if you have an Alexa or, uh, or a Google device. Okay, Google, play Ross Bolen podcast. That's probably going to mess with someone's, someone's Google right now. Yeah. Someone told me that that work the other day. Hey Alexa, play the Ross Bolen podcast. <crosstalk>- Which is weird, because we're already listening to it, so. If we just keep saying that like periodically throughout the show, would we just double and triple our listens because it'll just keep restarting? Is this the new strategy? <laugh>, it's, you know what, we've come up with worse ideas. I'm just kidding. We have. That's absolutely 100% certain you can follow our show on Instagram at the Ross Bolen and podcast. We are on Twitter at Ross Bolen pod. We're on facebook somewhere too, but nobody really knows where nobody cares, everyday through these social media outlets, we make important announcements. We put up photos and videos related to the show, highlighting segments from old episodes, from new episodes, new topics, things that are hot in pop culture, whatever it may be. These social media feeds are meant to be as entertaining as possible for you, our listenership. That's what we're striving for every single day on Instagram, Twitter, and even Facebook. And we fill up our Instagram story with slides that you, the RBP gang of sent to Micah and I, it's all your photos and videos. Uh, mostly we source these things through Snapchat. It's just been the easiest method thus far. You send a video or a picture to Micah and I on Snapchat, @wrbolin is my Snapchat, Micah is at Micah@tx, and we take all our favorite snaps from the day and upload them into the Instagram story at the Ross Bolen and podcast so that you can all see them, and it's been really fun so far. Uh, we get so much good shit every day that it's impossible to keep up with it all, so if your stuff does not get featured, please don't be offended, but definitely go check out the Instagram story, uh, at least once a day. We try to update it to get as many slides in as we can from you guys are fantastic. Thank you for participating. Couple of announcements and amends, first announcement. Go to rowdygentlemen.com and you're going to see a shirt there if you click the new tab, rowdygentlemen, just like it sounds, dot com. Click on the new tab in the top left. Do it right now, and you're going to see a shirt that says gang cubed, is the name of the shirt, right? We made this just for you, just for the RBP gang, just for the listenership of this podcast. It's got what appears to be, it's almost a Beluga Yeezy, if you, if you really look closely, that's almost what it looks like. And, it says gang gang gang on it, and it's just for y'all. Get on rowdygentlemen.com, grab that shirt, the gang cube tee, fill up the cart with hats and tee shirts from our fall, 2018 collection as well. If you're looking for a way to directly support the Ross Bolen podcast, this is it. Rowdygentlemen.com is our in house a website that we own and we're using now to, the idea is create more products that are fitting for our podcast audiences, and you guys being the largest one uh, if, if that's not, if that's a secret on, I have no idea. You're very important to us and we want to make you happy with good shirts that you love. So, if you ever have an idea for a t shirt that you want made, hit me up. That's because we love you. Oh, it's out of love. Yeah. Yeah. We'd love to hear your ideas, so. And, then listen to this in November for the entire month, which were only six days into, November 2018, RBP 30 as a code on rowdygentlmen.com will get you 30% off anything and everything. So, go to rowdygentlemen.com. Grab the game cube shirt, support the show, use the code RBP 30 at checkout. Throw some other stuff in the cart too, do some Christmas shopping while you're there. Fuck it. We've got great hats and teas and long sleeve tees and stuff that make fantastic gifts, especially if you've got a little brother or sister or whatever. Niece, nephew in college or some shit. Go to rowdygentlemen.com, RBP 30 will get you 30% off the entire website. I don't have any amends, let's just jump into the first segment. Animal of the week. This week's animal of the week is the Lemur. Uh, actually, I was on Instagram last night as I'm, I don't even know. I don't even need to say that sentence. I'm just on Instagram permanently now. There's not a moment where I'm like pulling up Instagram to check it. I'm just always on. You can just assume that I'm there, and I'm on there last night as I always am. And, uh, Nat Geo is the National Geographic's Instagram account @natgeo. If you don't follow them, you, uh, you should, they put up fantastic animal pictures and stories and, uh, you know, National Geographic, they've been the, the world leader in an animal photography since I was a fucking child. Maybe ever, since the invention of the camera. They put up a picture on their Instagram a few days ago that actually inspired this animal of the week, it's the Lemur and it was, uh, the, the one they put up was actually called an Aye-Aye, it's a type of Lemur or Aye Aye, I'm not sure. A-Y-E dash A-Y-E is how it's spelled Aye-Aye, Aye-Aye, I don't know. Either way. Uh, it turns out there's lots of different types of Lemurs, but this particular one they put up, here was the caption and it said, 'Did you know that word Lemur comes from the Latin word for ghost? Nocturnal behavior, startling screams and mythology regarding some Lemur species as holding the spirits of their ancestors are thought to contribute to their ghostly name connection. The Aye-Aye is at the center of countless myths on the island of Madagascar with many locals holding the belief that an encounter with the Aye-Aye brings great misfortune. Some Malagasy', those are the people that live on Madagascar. I did not know they were called Malagasy. That is awesome. Uh, 'even believed that the Aye-Aye's are man eaters, which is why you should never leave your village and the dark'. They still believe this. In reality, the Aye-Aye leads a solitary life, and his nocturnal meaning an encounter with this unique Lemur is very rare, uh, with increased education in eco-tourism to Madagascar, there is hope that the species will be viewed as a treasure and not as a threat. Yeah, that's pretty important that the people, the Malagasy understand that these little Lemurs aren't going to eat them whole. That's, someone should explain that, someone should be on a mission, should be explaining that right now, like as we speak. I can't do it. I'm here talking on the microphone. Somebody else go do it, though. Anyway, as I said, the Aye-Aye is a type of Lemur. The type of Lemur you're all most familiar with is probably the ring tailed Lemur. Uh, but we're going to talk about Lemurs in general, all right? So, if I mix in some Aye-Aye facts with some ring tailed facts, get off my back. Were all Lemur lover, lovers here together. Uh, first note is serious. Despite widespread popularity, everybody's heard of the Lemur. You've seen one in a movie or on TV or a poster, some, at some point you've seen a Lemur, but despite how popular they are and how well known they are, very endangered. The Earth's most endangered group of mammals, in fact, which I did not know, about 94% of all Lemur species have a threatened status on the IUC and red list, including 49 listed as endangered, and 24 listed as critically endangered, so Lemurs only live in the wild on Madagascar. Okay. And, there's a shit ton of different kinds of them, but they're all Lemurs and that's the only place they live in the wild, and they face an array of dangers there, obviously. They spend the majority of their lives high up in the trees, uh, because it's a safe move, a smart move, a high move, and yet they're still in serious danger of being eradicated completely. Uh, so very important note about the Lemur. 94% of the Lemur species have a threatened status. 49 listed as endangered, 24 listed as critically endangered. Definitely an animal that could use your help if you've got some spare time or money. That's all I'm saying. Modern Lemurs range from two and a half inches to two and a half feet tall. So, somewhere in there. The smallest living Lemur is the Pygmy Mouse Lemur, less than six centimeters from head to toe. Two point five inches. Little bitty guy. And the largest living Lemur is the Indri, which can stand as tall as two point five feet in adulthood. That is creepy as fuck. That's a big lamer. It's a big old Lemur, big boy. Uh, blue eyed Lemurs who's a random fact or one of two non nonhuman primates to have truly blue eyes. Lovely. Uh, just as a reminder of what's at stake for modern, for Lemurs in the modern day, some of the groups, most unusual members have already died out in recent country, in recent centuries. Apparently at least 17 giant Lemur species have already gone extinct since humans have reached Madagascar. Uh, including, there are these massive Lemurs called what Megaladapis Edwardsi, it was, it wait up to 200 pounds. And, when this, was the size of a small adult human, according to the national, or the American Museum of Natural History. I'm trying to wrap my head around seeing like an E.T size Lemur, like a 200 pound Lemur. And it just, it's just, basically what you're looking at here is Alf. And, that's what everyone describes this particular Lemur that no longer exists as having looked exactly like, the megalada, the Megaladapis Edwardsi I think is how it's pronounced. Looked just like fucking Alf, Google it. It's crazy. Just put a Alf Lemur. It'll probably pop up. Anyway. Another interesting fact about Lemurs. Their society is run entirely by females and it's so much so that it's often a like comedic dynamic within their societies. Robin Anne Smith, who's a Duke University Biologists wrote in 2015, It's not uncommon for lady Lemurs to bite their mates, snatch a piece of fruit from their hands, whack them in the head, or shoved them out of prime sleeping spots. They're little humans. That's what these are. They're a little freaky, furry humans. Uh, she continued, Females mark their territory with distinctive sense just as often as males do. Males often don't take their share of a meal until the females have had their fill. So, the babes are running the show in Lemur land. Also, ringtail Lemurs, they settled their disputes with something called stink fights and it's exactly what it sounds like. Male ring tailed Lemurs have these scent glands at their wrists and their shoulders. So, they use their long tails and they waft the scents from their wrists and their shoulders into the air to intimidate other Lemurs. In stink fight. Their wrists produce a volatile, short lived odor while their shoulders offer a brown toothpaste like substance with a longer lasting scent. And, when a stink fight begins, two rival males pull their tails through these glands, so the fur absorbs the smell, they also mix the scents up to make them richer, uh, and to get more persistent fragrances. And, then they wave their tails at each other, throwing pungency instead of punches, as this one website puts it. What the fuck? Pungency instead of punches. Wow. Stink fights are the way to go, in my opinion. Earth is poetic. Why don't we move this direction with our wars, enough with these bullets and bombs, who can smell the worst? Stand up. Let's have a stink fight. Anyway. Stink fights apparently quickly resolved when one Lemur backs off, and although they may end quickly, they have been known to last an hour. Now, I'm imagining to Lemurs wafting their different smells at each other for an hour, and I need to watch this on YouTube. Uh, preferably was smoking a joint. Stink fights can take place anytime of year, not just breeding season and they aren't necessarily limited to Lemurs. Human sense of smell isn't strong enough to detect the odors, but ringtail Lemurs don't know that. So, they tried to get indistinct fights with zoo, zookeepers and all the people who irritate them. Anyone who comes near, they try to stink fight the zookeeper. They're little skunks, these fuckers. Also, did not know this, but Lemurs, huge pollinators in Madagascar like bumblebees are in our heads here in America. They're big on pollen, and that's, those are your Lemur facts for the day. And that's your animal of the week. The Lemur. Again, shit tons of different kinds of them. They only live naturally in Madagascar and very, very endangered and threatened and critically endangered and need your money in your help. So, find a, you know, if you feel so compelled to, a, an organization that supports the Lemurs and do something. Next segment. Drinking and life. I got a listener email from somebody who asked to be left anonymous, so I'm just going to read it. Says, Hey Ross. I just listened to RBP 102, and had some questions about drinking and life. So, I'm a senior in high school and I guess I've had a pretty tough life so far. My mom passed away from lung cancer a few weeks ago, sorry, years ago, and my dad has been struggling with alcoholism ever since. This week, he's getting back from rehab for the second time. My school year started after dozens of attempts at AA. I got drunk a few times sophomore year, but haven't drank since. My friends are cool and don't pressure me to drink and I'm usually the designated driver. I stayed away from drinking and drugs because I know there's a lot of addiction in my family, and how they have affected me emotionally. I've been thinking of drinking lately, so I'm not left out, and for getting with girls. I have a few questions and I'm open to any other advice you have. Is it alright for me to continue to go into party sober? Is it possible to have a social life in college and not drink? How should I approach my dad now that he's home? Uh, again, I keep them anonymous. He says, I love what you and Micah are doing on the podcast. Keep it up, gang, gang, gang. All right. Listen, we talked about this shit a lot lately, but I felt this was important and specific enough to address it specifically. So, to get to each of your questions. Uh, first of all, that's great that you've recognized this is a problem in your fam, for those of you who are not aware, addiction, addictive personalities, alcoholism. These are genetic things. These things run in families, some families are, and some people are way more predisposed to suffer from these things as a result. Uh, like it's funny in my family, my mom and dad don't have, neither of them have what I would call addictive personalities on first glance. And, I've, trust me, I've spent plenty of time trying to find how everything about me is their fault, but random other members of my family, like I have like an aunt on my mom's side who has a panic disorder like I do or like, you know, an uncle on my dad's who has like an addictive personality, or you find the shit out. It's in your gene pool. Okay. That's my point. So, like this dude who's, who's having, watching his dad struggled with alcoholism. Yeah, for sure man. You don't want to drink when you're watching, a lot of people with alcoholic parents never touch alcohol as a result. Um, it sounds like you have already, but that's not, it's neither here nor there. I don't really buy into like the whole, I've never touched a substance in my life thing. Like, trump says that shit and weirds me out a little bit. Like, what do you mean you've never had a drink ever? Ever? You didn't try one? What? I just don't know if I believe that from anybody, but it, anyway. No, point is, good for you for recognizing the, that you can steer clear of this shit if you choose to. You can just not drink or not fuck with substances at all, man. Especially if it's something that you're worried about. I, just don't. Especially if you're in a position where your friends aren't pressuring you and you're already, you've already found your social groove. It sounds like at least a little bit more than other people. My biggest problem man, was always the, is it possible to have a social life in college and not drink? Is it alright for me to continue going to parties sober? Hell yes. It's all right for you to go to parties sober. Dude, no one there can tell that you're sober except you. That's the hardest part to, to figure out about parties sober. I used to go to parties, uh, like let's say at 22 years old in college, we're having a huge fraternity party that night and I have a massive panic attack during the day. Typically, when I would have a massive panic attack, I can't drink the rest of the day for sure, for at least the rest of the day, sometimes a week, sometimes a month, but definitely not that day because it would just trigger another immediate panic attack. So, what I have to do is go to parties and walk around with a beer like I was drinking when I wasn't. So, that's like one strategy you can utilize. Uh, the, I mean just having something in your hand so that it appears you're drinking even if it's like you fake a mixed drink and it's just soda or whatever. That can go a long way to getting people off your back at parties. Especially in college. It's tough. That's the toughest time. It's the toughest time in your life to not drink. And, I know this because I failed to ever quit during college. Like there was a, a three year span where I knew I shouldn't be drinking anymore because of my anxiety and yet I did still for like 10 years because it's hard to walk away from. Especially if you're super embedded in the social like party lifestyle, especially if you're super concerned with being able to like interact with girls sober, which is something our, our email or brings up as well, and you don't want to feel left out. It's so, you feel FOMO constantly in college if you're skipping out on parties are not drinking when everybody else is, but listen, man, here's the important thing. At the end of the day, none of this shit matters. You have to do what is best for you, right? Yes. If you're to look at it in the light of, it sucks that I'm missing out on this party, then you're going to feel bad about it and you're gonna wish you were drinking and you're going to get all, like self pity and shit. Fuck all that noise. You're, just be above it. Just make it what it is for you. It's your life. Nobody else can tell you how to live. I can't tell you how to live. You have to figure it out on your own, and if you think what you seem to think that it's a better idea that you avoid alcohol, then do it, man. Fuck what anybody else thinks, and anybody else that gives you a hard time about that is not your fucking friend, and I know that's something your parents tell you when you're growing up. Like, oh, they're just picking on you, that's, they're not really your friend. That's just somebody, like anybody that's mean to you isn't really your friend. That shit's actually true. People who don't care about you aren't your friend and if they, if you're trying not to drink and people were trying to pressure you to drink, those people are not your friends, so you don't need to worry about what they think. Uh, but it sounds like you've got a decent group of friends around you that are cool. They don't pressure you too much. You're going to be the designated driver and shit. I would definitely continue to go to parties sober if you've already conquered that. Like, it's so much harder to do the reverse, to go be full blown party guy, and then try to be sober party guy. You're already halfway there, it sounds like, like you've at least done one party sober. You can do this. It can be pulled off. I swear to God, it can. I wasn't able to do it. Uh, I wasn't strong enough to do it, but I've seen people do it. I've heard of people who've done it. I hope it will become something that happens more and more in the future as a result of things like this podcast and removing the stigma from people who choose not to indulge in alcohol or whatever the substance may be. There's just no need for you to stress about this shit. And, I stressed incessantly for fucking ever about drinking in college and how I knew I couldn't do it anymore. Whether it was because of the legal trouble, I was in it because of the anxiety that it was inducing, but I still did it anyway. So, I promise you this, you can go through college drinking and miserable, or you can go through sober and happy. It is totally up to you. And, and you don't even have to be sober. Do you, if you want to go my route, smoke some weed, don't drink it. It's a totally different animal. Uh, in my, in my case, I'm able to like, there's, there's never been a point where we'd has had an impact on my life functioning. Alcohol that happened every time I drank. So, I'm just saying there's other options out there. Just because you're in college does not mean you have to drink. Everybody takes it for meaning that the, that's what you do in college. You drink. Enough is enough. Like there are people in college who cannot drink and should not be drinking. This guy sounds like he's one of them. Don't fucking do it if you don't want to, don't do things that you don't, that you know you shouldn't be doing that are going to hurt you. It's so much easier, as a person who was always faced adversity and issues by having to run straight through them, like to bulldoze them rather than go around them. It's so much easier to not do that and so much less painful on yourself to just make the right decision out front instead of being a stubborn fuck and forcing yourself to realize it in most painful way possible. You've got a good head on your shoulders, sending an email like this, getting out in front of the fucking issue. Do yourself a favor and just don't drink. That would be my, my response to your, your particular email. I appreciate you reaching out. I appreciate you listening to the show. Uh, good luck with your dad. You said you, you wonder how you should approach him now that he's home from rehab again, and he's been in and out of AA. Dude, that's a tough situation now being a, being a child of a parent where the roles are reversed and you feel like you have to take care of them is the fuck, that's just the worst. And, you see it happen all the time. Especially with addicts and alcoholics and shit. Uh, my advice would be to go to A Non meetings, man, go to those alcoholics anonymous meetings that are for, for the, for family members and victims of alcoholism. Uh, those will be extremely helpful for you to not only understanding what your dad is going through and helping you deal with it, but there'll be extremely helpful for you to understand the road that you could go down with alcoholism if you so choose to or, uh, how the road that you could avoid all together go to, I'm pretty sure they're called A Non meetings, it's like the version that's for, for, for family members. Yeah. Yeah. A Non. Whoop that shit up there, and every, Al-Anon, boom, I was so close to blowing this. Al-Anon meetings. Look them up. There are family groups in every city at every four blocks, find yourself one. Go to it. It's for people just like you who have parents or siblings or friends or whatever that is suffering from alcoholism. It'll help you with time. Okay, that's, that's my real answer. Go to an Al-Anon meeting and just take that shit serious. Whatever you decide is your decision and, and, and you need, you need to put some real thought into it. It's an important decision, enough so that I'm spending 20 minutes talking about it on this fucking show. There's a bunch of these, uh, organizations like that. There's uh, Nar-Anon, there's, um, there's a adults, adult children of alcoholics, groups. There's, the, it won't take you there long to find somebody. Right. And, I, I know people that have been in uh, these have been going to these groups and their, their family members have been sober for deck, uh, you know, a decade and they still go- And, they still go. And it's, and it's something they found, you know, a lot of, uh, uh, joy may not be the right word, but- It's support. Like, solitude, support, all of those things. It's, it's worth checking out. And, uh- Yeah, absolutely. I mean, especially for somebody in your position where you're, you, you, you've got a lot of angles to work with you. I mean, there's a lot, you got a lot to handle on your plate. Um, and I'll just say this, as, as, as, as a guy who feels like he's had a lot to handle, a lot, put on his plate at different times in life, uh, just in the form of my own personal issues, not in the form of like trauma or tragedy necessarily. I, I see all that shit as a blessing and I know it's hard to see it like that right now when, especially when you're dealing with your own attempts at figuring out your own life and there's your dad who's fallen off the rails. You lost your mom. I know it's hard to see it that way, but all, all these things that happened to you shape you into the man that you're going to be when you, when you're older and, and are gonna have that's, these are the things that are going to decide how you impact the world yourself. And, what, what it is that you leave behind. So, just take it serious, like I don't, I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. I'm not saying you should or shouldn't drink. I'm not. I'm just saying it seems like based on what I know about your one fucking email, it's probably the smarter move to avoid it. And, at the very least you should go to some Al-Anon meetings or any of those groups. Just like Micah has said, there's so many different support groups, both for alcoholics and family and friends of alcoholics. Do some Googling go to one and start to figure it out. Big News. This episode of RBP is brought to you by our friends at Fulton and Roark, and guess what? Fulton and Roark has a new fragrance out. It's part of their limited reserves series, which is where the guys behind the guys behind the colognes get to try things a little outside the box. They get a little weird but in a really good smelling way. And, this new fragrance is called Perpetua, like perpetual, but without the l, Perpetua. It features notes of Atlas Cedar. So, it's a very woody scent, but it's also really fresh, and woody is good. You want to be woody. Woody is the best. Also, to make the launch of the colonial a little more fun for everybody, Fulton and Roark made flat black containers for the first 1000 colognes. So, there's this little extra cool incentive for you to scoop yours. Now, get <crosstalk>- They are dope. They sent something to us and they are cool. They're very cool. We do have them around the office and they're awesome. And like all Fulton and Roark products, these come with a 30 day no questions asked return policy. So, if you don't love the scent because your nose is malfunctioning or something, it's easy to exchange for something else or get your money back. So, go to Fulton and Roark, that's R-O-A-R-K.com, and use the code RBP at checkout to receive 15% off your first purchase. That's F-U-L-T-O-N and R-O-A-R-K.com. Code RPB at checkout, 15% off, gang, gang, gang. Next segment. Sleep paralysis is terrifying. So, I got an email from someone named Nash and the subject was sleep paralysis story, and I'm going to read this to you as it is punctuated. Okay. And this is, I might have to take a breath at some point here. So again, this is from Nash. Okay. So to start this story, I work in the oil field by myself with my two dogs and Skyler, who was mentioned in the story is my girlfriend. Okay. So, I was dreaming and I knew I was and I was trying to wake up but I couldn't, and I felt, and I fell walking up some stairs and I couldn't get back up, and this little girl in a red dress ran up to me and it made me jump and woke me up, but I didn't actually wake up because that little girl was in my camper, and I tried to yell and move and couldn't. And, Skyler was laying next to me instead of Chip my dog, and she went Nash what's wrong? And, I tried to talk and kick my legs at the little girl and she ran up to me with a pillow case, and put it over my head. Then I woke up or I think I did in checked my phone and it was 1:45 A.M and I had like five or 10 more dreams where I couldn't move or yell and something scary what happen, and I would wake up and check my phone and it was still 1:45, and it felt like I was stuck in that time for hours. Finally, I actually woke up and set up and it made, it made absolutely positive I was awake, and checked the time and it was 3:00 A.M. The witching hour. Thanks. I know I suck at writing and this is basically just one long run on sentence, but fuck it. <laugh> Uh, any email with fuck it is, is the way to go. Just for the record. Great email, Nash. Holy Shit. I don't know if we've ever talked about sleep paralysis in any way, shape or form. Dude, this is such a weird phenomenon that I've had, but not in like decades. It's crazy. I had it when I was going through puberty the most, I think, because of whatever, like, you know, you've got all those hormones going crazy in your body when you're a teenager and you growing, grow, growth spurts and all that shit. That's when I was most susceptible to things like sleep paralysis and I will never forget the couple of times that I can remember anyway, where I had very specific instances of sleep paralysis and woke up and could not move. And, just like you, my problem was always that I was combining dreaming with sleep paralysis. So, like I would have these horrifying dream that someone was coming into the room as I was in sleep paralysis mode, and I couldn't do anything. So, like you had this little girl situation. I had some similar, wasn't a little girl. Uh, but it was fucked up, and there is no worse feeling in the world, it turns out then being awake and unable to move or speak. Holy Shit. It's fucking awful. And, uh, man. I just love the way you wrote this email probably in the middle of the night after waking up to this horrible, to this horrible experience. And, their, your emails were written like exactly how you would've experienced it without any punctuation and that feeling of time, and, and you lose all understanding of it in the midst of like a dream or that's, uh, sleep paralysis situation. How that works to me is so fascinating and I don't fully understand it, but it's nuts. And I've been through that exact thing. It's like the inception deal, like you dream three layers deep and then you wake up from one dream into another dream and think you're awake, but no, that's another dream. And then you, it's like it all that shit. It just blows my mind, and I definitely understand how sleep science is a thing that people spend their entire lives studying, uh, and that there sleep researchers out there and shit. Apparently sleep paralysis is normally the result of your body not moving smoothly through the stages of sleep. It's usually not linked to like deep underlying psychiatric issues or anything like that. It's very simple. And uh, if you go read, if you want to really fuck yourself up, go on Web MD for, for the only time you should ever do that. Never ever Googled anything on Web MD ever. Everybody knows this. It just, you have aids and cancer. You have both. Don't look it up on Web MD. You're going to die. All right? Just don't look it up. Uh, but if you want to really freak yourself out, look up sleep paralysis. There's like a guide to sleep paralysis as a disorder that walks you through what it is and why it occurs and when it occurs. And, I feel like reading the information off this Web MD page has to like double or triple your odds of having sleep paralysis, which is, which isn't good. And, is why I'm choosing not to read it. So, you, you probably shouldn't read it. That's why I'm not reading it. Okay. Yeah, but if you want to read it, you certainly can. I just feel like even knowing this information is dangerous <laugh>, that's why I'm staying the fuck away from it. Anyway, for anybody out there experiences, sleep, paralysis. Uh, best of luck. I have no idea what you're supposed to do. Uh, I actually don't know of any groups that can help you. I've never dealt with it personally. And, you're on your own. Next segment. Let's make a fucking difference. So, I have an aunt, an aunt, if you will. Her name is Beverly. I call her aunt Bev, and she hit me up this weekend, basically begging me to shine some light on a particular subject and after some research I have decided to do so on behalf of my aunt Bev. So, thank you aunt Bev, shout out to my aunt Bev. She sent me this petitions on change.org and it's a, there's an issue in the state of Virginia involving animal testing and uh, more specifically, it's not really animal testing, it's, it's just, it, they kill the animals in different ways to experiment, right too, like, you know, make notes on how it goes down and shit. They're doing this with dogs in Virginia and a lot of people are very, very, very upset about this to the point that it is now like a national issue in my aunt's going nuts. Uh, long story short, it was announced a few days ago that in Virginia they're going to continue fatal experiments on dogs. It went to a vote or something. I guess the Congress enacted a law to defund Virginia's dog experiments in 2018. Uh, it looked like this was all going in a good direction back in March, and then now suddenly, maybe no, they're back to doing fatal experiments on dogs or something, but after reading into this a little bit, this is essentially my take. These experiments are fucking worthless, and the data collected from them in comparison to a living, breathing dog's life is stupid. And, this URL for this petition is just, if you, if you go to change.org and then search permanently stop abusive VA dog experiments, it's gonna pop up and uh, our, our, uh, <laugh>, that's never happened before. Our janitor just tried to come in. <laugh> That's how late it is. Point is go to change.org search, permanently stop abusive VA dog experiments. You're going to see this whole petition, uh, there's enough information probably on this page alone for you to make your own decision on whether or not you want to be a part of this petition. Uh, but I would urge you to Google this, this situation in Virginia because what ends up happening in situations like the, like the some idiot scientist has the idea they need this program where they kill dogs, in this case, here's what they do. According to news reports and the nonprofit white coat waste project, some of Virginia's current projects involve number one, giving mixed breed puppies heart attacks. They do this in Richmond, Virginia, number two, cutting into Beagle puppies brains. They do that in Milwaukee. Number three, damaging dog's spinal cords. They do that in Cleveland, Virginia. These are things that don't need to be done. And, I get it. Some idiot came up with the idea for this fucking program where you can experiment on these, on these dogs, these puppies, and then you're gonna, you're gonna. Learn about how to, whatev, nobody needs to learn this shit unnaturally. Look man, if a puppy has a heart attack, then study the puppy after the fact. You don't induce heart attack for shits and gigs. And if I don't, there's no circumstance that makes us okay, okay? I don't, I don't care if there's an overpopulation of dogs, I don't care if people are failing to get their pets spayed and neutered or whatever. I, oh, I do not care. There is a better way than whatever this is. This is stupid. 115 000 plus people have already agreed this is stupid. That's a very large amount. I would appreciate it if any of you that also agree with it being stupid. Go sign this petition and do something about it. The basic message of the petition is this; uh, killing dogs or science is bullshit, but that's not what it actually says. It says, As US military veterans, family members and active duty members were sickened that the department of Veterans Affairs, the VA, has been using taxpayer's money to purchase, breed, abuse and kill dogs in wasteful experiments, uh, so you're going to have to excuse me really quickly. I need to correct myself. Those three things I listed earlier that are happening in Richmond, Cleveland and Milwaukee. They all say VA after them. That's not Virginia. It's the Veterans Affairs that those are the cities, Cleveland, Ohio. Where's Milwaukee? What state is Milwaukee? Wisconsin. Thank you, Micah. And, then Richmond is in Virginia. There's also at least one or two other Richmond's, so maybe it's not the one in Virginia, I don't know. Anyway, this is the issue. It says, As US military families, family members and active duty members we're sickend that the department of Veterans Affairs, the VA has been using tax payers money to purchase, breed, abuse and kill dogs and wasteful experiments. So, purchase breed abuse and kill dogs in wasteful experiments. That's the issue. The VA's painful and deadly experiments on dogs or a betrayal of these loyal animals who literally saved soldiers' lives on and off the battlefield. These projects also wastes resources desperately needed to provide veterans with care and services, so if you feel like this is something, this is me talking again, Ross, if you feel like this is something you're passionate enough about to make a difference, it's time to make a fucking difference. Uh, whenever I find something that I feel like enough of you will care about to do something about, I'll do it. Let's make a fucking difference segment, and lay it out for you. And in this particular one, it's pretty fucking simple. It's if you're, if you're cool with this, all right, if you're not, which most of you won't be, go sign the petition or figure it out, protest if you're driven to do whatever you believe you have to do to get the change you think the world deserves, because that, I feel like that's such a fuck, a common issue with my generation is everybody's quick to point out the problems, but nobody knows how to act and, and, and, and solve them. We, we've got to get better at that. I, I know I do personally to like, I'm really good at pointing out the problems, but as far as solving them goes, it's, it's, it's harder. It's much harder to solve a problem than it is to point to it. So, if you're somebody who's got the time and energy and effort to put towards getting this, these uh, Veterans Affairs, the Department of Veterans Affairs to stop breeding, experimenting on and murdering dogs, go sign this petition on change.org, permanently stop abusive VA dog experiments. They're going for 150 000 signatures. It looks like, again, a lot of information on there. Let's make a fucking difference. Next segment. The beauty of voting. So, today is election day. I think in like nine minutes as of me reading this out loud, the poles are going to close or start to close and, and we'll start seeing the results of these. What is this, midterms? Yeah. Uh, in Texas they close at 7:00 P.M. Okay. So, it's about an hour away and a lot of places, no one's going to listen to this before that. Anyway. <crosstalk>. In Houston a lot of the poll places will actually be open late because they opened late this morning for certain reasons. Oh, okay. Okay. So, anyway. Yeah, you're right. I mean, it doesn't particularly matter because everybody's going to have listened to after the voting period is probably past, but it's important for future voting, uh, opportunities that you understand a lot of this shit and that's part of the reason I thought it would be important to do this segment because the point that gets driven into your brain from the second year in like third grade or preschool or whatever is that here in America, if you're an American listening, which of course a lot of you aren't, I understand that, but talking specifically to the Americans on the listenership side of things, here, you have a right that not everybody has a right, it's a right to choose who's going to make the decisions, very important decisions, uh, in your city, your county, your state, your country. If you choose not to take part in the system that elects, those officials, you forfeit all right to complaining about anything at all. And, I don't just mean complaining about like a politician specifically or the president or some new law. I mean period. You can just shut the fuck right up. If you don't vote, the whole system is run off of this. You see, this is how, this is how the whole country works, fam. If you don't go vote, it doesn't work, and that seems to be something that is lost on too many people, like the whole country was built on the concept that everybody gets a voice and gets to vote. Why would you not exercise that right? It makes no sense, and way too many people, especially people who smoke a lot of weed and play a lot of video games, and I'm looking at you and myself. You don't get off your fucking ass and go vote, and it sucks. It doesn't just suck because it's it, it, you're not taking advantage of an inalienable right, in, in, inalienable, unalienable? It's one of those two. It's not just that you're not taking advantage of this God given right that you were born into this place that you're blessed enough to have. It's not just that, it's literally you are negatively affecting the system by not participating in it, and it's, I understand that a lot of people's excuses. I don't know anything about the candidates. Edu, educate yourself then. It's, it's pretty the, what's his name? Al Gore invented the Internet just so we can educate ourselves about, about these fucking politicians and all with all the sleazy shit they're doing. Use the Internet. Read a newspaper one goddamn time like, dude, dude, this stuff is not hard to teach yourself about if you care enough to teach yourself and the point is long story, long segment short, short segment short, perhaps voting is very, very important. If you live in a country where you have the right to vote, you have to vote. It is an obligation. It is a right, if at some point down the road you'd no longer have that right, you're gonna feel really fucking for not participating when you had the chance. The whole system in my country, in the United States is based on voting and it has never been more clear than over the past 20 years how important it is for everyone to participate. So, just to drive home on election day for a few minutes, the beauty of voting, and how all of this works together to make us all one miserable country. Just participate. You have to participate. You have, I know it can be super hard when you're like 18 years old because I remember being 18 and the first time I went and voted not really knowing what I was doing and I didn't do any research, I just kind of voted with my dick, uh, which that doesn't even make sense. I voted with my gut. I'll put it that way. And uh, I mean when you're 18 it can be really hard, but as you get older, just try every year to become a little more educated about what's going on in your local government or your community or nationwide or whatever. And, if it's not for you, it's not for you and that's that. But if it is for you, maybe you end up being one of the people that makes a positive impact on the world eventually. So, get yourself into this shit. Educate yourself on these different people running for these different positions and what the positions do, and then go vote when you have the opportunity to vote. That is all, next and final segment. Micah's read of the week. Before we get to Micah's read of the week, I have one, I have one bone to pick. Pick, call this pick a bone. Micah has a bone to pick. Okay. First we're going to do Micah has a bone to pick. Thank you. It is with legendary Houston musician and superstar Beyonce Knowles. Oh, great. Beyonce, uh, posted on Instagram today at 16:00 central time, three hours before polls close. Supporting Beto O'Rourke. Okay. Wearing a Beto hat. Okay. Hey Beyonce, why did you do this? I don't get it. What do you, why are you upset about this? We had two weeks of early voting, Ross, and the polls closed in three hours. Oh, you mean why <crosstalk>- She could have posted this photo yesterday. What's funny is it's uh, it's actually three posts in succession of, one's a video of her wearing a hat. The second one is her doing the 'H' thumbs, they, the Houston, uh, you know, 'H' symbol with the Beto hat and there's a third. It's just kind of unnecessary. Interesting point though, Micah, that she makes the post a couple hours before the polls close. It's weird. Well, let me just be clear. I, I think most people listening know where, where I stand on most political issues. We don't normally do this, but it's election day. Fuck it. Yeah, you're a dirty liberal scumbag. Uh, yeah, liberal kuk. You are. Um, leftist, um, noted leftist, Micah. I, I really disliked at Ted Cruz- Kuk. And, I'll just put this out here. I know we have conservative listeners and I appreciate that and respect it. Ted Cruz has been a terrible center for the state of Texas, he has missed more votes than any other center. He spent more than half since he's been elected, he spent more than half of his time campaigning to run for president and he has the worst attendance of any United States senator since he's been elected. Not good at running for president. He is going to run for president again if not this cycle, then again, four, uh, six years from now, whatever. Now, that I do look forward to. It's very entertaining. Texas has a history. A lot of people don't like to talk about it because we're, we're proud people of uh, generating a ton of, uh, of money via Pork and bringing in projects, uh, thanks to government hand me downs, for lack of a better term. We used to have legislators that knew how to play the game and would bring back things that made life in Texas better. Okay. Ted Cruz has, has done none of those things and I would venture to say, uh, he, he would say that he was, uh, you know, elected six years ago to be a bomb thrower to change the way that Washington works, which I think that he did a to a certain extent. I'm not sure he actually accomplished anything. In fact, I'm pretty sure that we, we, it won't be very long. His list of actual legislative accomplishments is quite short, and I think he's done a poor job and I think it, um, uh, I would be, you know, the polls close in an hour, so nobody cares what I think here, but- Yeah, it's important. I, I support Beto. Okay. Uh, I don't think Beto is a perfect candidate. So, you're upset because Beyonce should have done this long ago? If Beyonce would have done this yesterday, it would've been nice- Would have made a big difference. Or, three weeks ago. That would have been great. Lebron James came to, to Texas and Moribito hat last week or two weeks ago, whenever. I understand your point. Just doing this three weeks, three hours before polls closed. It's just so dumb. It's, it's an odd move. Uh, if you, if, look, listen, I, I don't want the beyhive. I don't want any of that. Oh, God. Oh, man- Please, please- What if we upset the beyhive? Please do not come near me. I'm a huge Beyonce fan. I'm from Houston. She might as well be, uh, a goddess, but I do get Micah his point here. It makes no sense. An hour ago she put these up, these three posts in a row with three, you know, I, I guess the only, the first one actually has a, as a, a caption on it. It says, I'm feeling grateful for everyone before me who fought so hard to give us all the right to have a voice. We can't voice our frustrations and complain about what's wrong without voting and exercising our power to make it right. We need you. We all need each other because when we are truly united, we are unstoppable. Sending you all love and positivity on this happy voting day. Every vote counts. Every race matters, everywhere. Yeah, that's all true and that's pretty much what we just said. I guess we could have just gone with the Beyonce caption instead of just doing- Yeah, <crosstalk> to Beyonce. But- The timing is poor. Damn, the timing is shit, and maybe she's just busy, I don't know, but- She probably is busier than you and I. She has 110 million followers and in certainly if she wanted- Jesus. To have a bigger impact on the Texas senatorial race, she should have done that like a least yesterday, probably a few weeks ago. So, I don't know what that's about. That's, that's odd. But I do- Well, so there's my bone to pick with Beyonce and, and you know, and just, I just want to be clear. I'm, I'm, I would consider myself, even though people call me, left us kuk, I would consider myself a very moderate on most issues. And, my number one issue for lawmakers that my, my number one criteria, and it's something we talked about a minute ago, is people that actually do things, problem solvers. Like do your job? Well you, you were just saying it's hard for our generation to find people that do things- Yeah, that act, yeah- And, we don't, and Ted Cruz, in my mind, has been the least pragmatic politician that I've ever seen on a, on a, on a <crosstalk>- So, you don't like, you don't like dudes and get up to DC and then they fuck around with their own, all they're doing is working on, their, working their way up the ladder instead of working on their constituency. Yes. Okay. And I, I think that that's a fair criticism of Ted. It's a fair criticism of all politicians. And, I also feel like it's not, you know, I, like me say this, I don't believe Beto to be a perfect candidate. I have find him to be, um, a far too far left in my mind. Um, but that being said, I feel like he is excited to be a United States senator and help the people of Texas. I just want to legalize heroin. So, and then, you know, chances of us gaining weed as a nation- They would go up. They would go up. <crosstalk> would probably be good, and Beto has proven, uh, he's done a lot of stuff where he's gone on road trips with republicans, and, you know, met people and, and, and we're work, reach across the aisle. I know there are people yelling, no purity, all that stuff. We're, we're in a mess right now. So, that's why, that's where I am. I also say this now, an hour before the polls close. I am 100% confident, uh, Ted Cruz will win- Oh, yeah, oh yeah. And will again, run for president. No, he, Beto has absolutely no chance. And, again, do a very mediocre job for the state of Texas, but that's my bone to pick with Beyonce, Miss, Miss Carter, I guess. Before you do your read of the week though, I cannot wait personally as a guy who sits firmly in the middle and then also leans heavily towards entertainment as my, the political party that I, that I, uh, choose to affiliate myself with. I can't fucking wait to see Ted Cruz back in these debates. Hopefully with Trump again. I just need to see if it, even if it's just a replay of the last one, that was the funniest shit I've ever seen. I've never watched a grown man accused another grown man's dad of killing JFK on TV before. Like, shit like that doesn't happen very often. That's the other beauty of voting. We get to watch all these great debates between these morons that have worked their way up to the top. It's fantastic, and I love Ted for that. He may be horrible at his job. I don't really know. Frankly, I'm not. I'm not certain it's, I don't know that he has. I, I'm just going to leave it at that. I don't know, but I do know that I'm thoroughly entertained by his stupid face and actions, and I mean that completely outside of politics. I mean like, the other week he went to Bucky's, which is a gas station here- Yeah. If you're not aware of Bucky's, it's these massive gas stations that are essentially like a Walmart, but for gas, he went to a Bucky's, and picked up a twelver of shiner with a camera crew just so he could look like an everyday guy, and it was the funniest fucking thing ever. Like, and I get this, this segment, this shows in general, it's probably pissing off a lot of people. That sucks, man. If you let yourself get angry about the fact that I, I can enjoy laughing at both sides- Yeah, there's no doubt, Ted Cruz, uh, he, we make Ted Cruz jokes in this office like every day. He's the funniest walking human being in my opinion. He's, he's, there's something about, John Cornyn is our other United States senator. He's been a senator for a long time. Nobody, I guarantee nobody else in this office- I don't even know who he is- Yeah, nobody knows he's the United States senator. I need to educate myself. We're, we don't, we don't hate on Ted Cruz because he's ours. We hate on just because he's such a, his face looks like an unlit, unbaked loaf of bread and said that soup is the world's most perfect food, and he talked about Kaiso dripping down his chin. He's just absurd. It's visceral. And, and he's, he's done a lousy job in my view, but- Yeah, I, I don't know about the job part, I'm just saying he's funny as shit. And uh, I enjoy my, my politicians to be as cartoonish as possible. Yeah, he, he's, he's, he's definitely up there. Yeah. Well that's enough of Micah has a bone to pick. I hope Mike has read of the week is not political. Please God. Next segment. Micah's read of the week. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. All right, you know, this episode has been a bit of a downer. It's been some serious topics we've been talking about. Please be fun. It's not that fun. Dammit. But it, I, this is a good read. This one is entitled, it's from Texas monthly, some magazine here. It's entitled 'The hero of the Sutherland Springs shooting is still reckoning with what happened that day'. Okay. Let me read that one more time. Suther, Sutherland Springs. 'The hero of the Sutherland Springs shooting is still reckoning with what happened that day', if you go to Texas monthly and search a Sutherland, it'll pop right up. Sutherland Springs, uh, you, it's the top story on Texas monthly right now, actually. Uh, Sutherland springs. You may recall almost, I think it was a year ago yesterday, was the site of the worst mass shooting in Texas history. I believe there are 28 people dead. And uh, more than 20 of them were injured when a fucking madman took an AK, uh, an AR15, I'm sorry, an AR15 into a local church and started plowing people down. Men, women, children, families, the whole fucking deal. This is terrible. Okay, and I'm not, we, we will make, I'm going to make zero political, uh, uh, statements- Good. Please, please God. About this at all. It's terrible. Terrible, terrible, terrible. Now, one thing that happened here is something. There is a guy who is a plumber. His name is Steven Williford, Steven Williford. And, that's who this is about? That's who this piece is about. Steven Wilford was taking a nap. Uh, he's, I think it was an nap, either that or was working overnights, but he, he was asleep in his bed- One of the two. And, heard a tapping noise. His daughter came and said like, there's a shooting going on. He right, he went to his gun safe. He grabbed his AR15- Oh, shit. As well as another gun, ran to this church without shoes on. Screamed, Hey, at the top of his lungs, which he says he knew instantly it was a mistake and he shouldn't have done that because the last thing you want to do when somebody has a gun is give up your location. Right, right, right. But this, that instantly got a this madman to stop shooting and then he started firing at this guy. The guy gets in a car, uh, a waiting car and drives away, and then Williford grabs a dude who's, who's in a in a car waiting by for something else and says, let's go chase this motherfucker down, and then they go chase after the guy until he eventually dry, drives off the side of the road and he, you know, the guy ends up killing himself. The whole thing. It's a terrible story, but the way that it's told in this piece is truly excellent. Uh, Michael J. Mooney is the author, uh, it talks about that day, what happened, how crazy the circumstances are, how he exchanged fire, how he knew this guy had a, he hit him twice, but he knew that the guy had on tactical gear- Oh, okay. The, the murder, the murderous fuck had tactical gear and a bulletproof jacket put. He knew because he used to have friends who were in the military to shoot in the side, and shoot for the legs. So, he managed to slow this guy down enough and then chase after him, uh, while dodging gunfire. It's like something out of a, like the actual seven minutes that is portrayed in the writing of this piece- It's like 10 000 words. Right. It is, but it's very interesting- Dude, the- It's, it's really well written. And, like, I found myself like, like breathing heavy, just reading this story, even though I know how it ends. So, this, this guy Michael J. Mooney, uh, who again, I'm just Michael J. Mooney is the author of the, of the column. He, uh, he, uh, just the segments that I've been able to read while Mike has been talking here alone. Just an unbelievably descriptive job of, of forcing the reader to visualize exactly what's happening here. It puts you right in it. It's crazy as hell. And this is like, I love, I love stories like this where I mean, yes, it's, it's horrible that this is, you know, the subject matter is again, it's a mass shooting, but uh, it's not the happiest of things, but I love circumstances where human beings do extraordinary things. And, then someone like our boy here did uh, what's his name? Michael J. Mooney. No, he, yeah. He's the author, but- Comes along, and, and yeah, and interviews the guy who did something spectacular, Steven Williford and puts together a story of this magnitude that, uh, is just crazy. So, the first half of it is, is kind of a play by play of what happened. And then, and then it talks about how after he chases the guy out, he, there's a 27 year old named Johnny Lingerdorf who had driven down from Seguin 30 miles north to visit his girlfriend and was just at the intersection across from the street when he saw a gunman walk out and uh, and was firing at Williford. He dials 911 than Williford, who these people have never met, runs toward him barefoot and brandishing a warm air 15 and screams, That guy just shot up the church, we need to stop him, and so then they start a race and after the guy 90 miles an hour. So, the first half of this piece is just sort of the play by play of what happens. And, then the second half is really the most interesting part, because it goes into Williford's childhood and how he thinks that he was designed, like he'd been trained his whole life for that moment, even though he wasn't in the military- Right, right. He started shooting guns when he was five and, and uh, new people and trained his children and, and all sorts of crazy things. And then, plus, but at the end of the day, the guy's a plumber, a who had lived in this small town that his family had, had, uh, been a part of for seven generations. This is a small, a very small town, like less than a thousand people, and 26 people are dead in 20 or injured. Do you think he doesn't know every person inside that church? Of course he does. Right, he's going for, uh, yeah. So, you know. That's personal. But, so then the second half is kind of how, what has happened to him since then. He, he doesn't call himself a hero. He doesn't believe he's a hero, but at the same time, like clearly everywhere he goes, he's the guy who, who helped stop this thing. Yeah. And, then he also acknowledges that he's become this symbol that's bigger than him of, of the good guy with a gun. Right. Which is this sort of thing that's- It's a rare, rare symbol. It's a rare, it's the ultimate symbol. Yeah. This guy, and he did with am AR15. Right. It's like a perfect storm of like, I won't say like fantasy- It's gun rights stuff, no this is exact, yeah- But like, the NRA has pushed, after, after Newtown, Connecticut, uh, Wayne Lapierre said, the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. This guy from a small town who's a fucking plumber, not that there's anything wrong with plumbers, and who just walked out because he was napping because he'd been working overnight. It has become the ultimate good guy with a gun. Right. And so- Out of nowhere. He's embraced a lot of it, and a lot of it just at, at the same time, everyday people walk up to him and thank him for what he's done, and every time they do that, he has to relive the most horrible seven minutes of his life when he realized that his town is changed forever. Argh. And uh, so it's, it's a burden that he carries, his wife, like, and his family and everything else. Uh, he talks about his wife and his daughter and how this stuff has, has changed their whole life. And you know, and he still claims he's more of a survivor than a hero. Uh, anyway, it's a very interesting piece and I would encourage you to check it out. Go to Texas monthly, you'll see it. It's the top story. The hero of the Sutherland Springs shooting is still reckoning with what happened that day. Fascinating piece. Good Shit. And, that is yet another edition of Micah's read of the week. Now, in conclusion, first of all, thank you for listening to the show. And I know this one was maybe, maybe a little dark, maybe a little heavier than you expected. Uh, especially on a heavy day, election day, and uh, you know, sometimes that happens, I won't lie to you, this show, you know, I like to keep it light and funny as much as possible, but some days we're going to come in here and just get fucking serious and shred the whole world, and that's just the way it is. Um, but I try to balance it out as much as possible with laughs. So, hopefully tomorrow or the next episode, we do a RBP 104, I'll just make it super funny to balance out the universe with the Ying and the Yang of this depressing episode. Bring the comedy. Let's make some jokes. All right, but for this one, I appreciate you listening. If you would take the time to rate and review on apple podcasts, that would mean a great deal. We're also available on Spotify, uh, subscribe. I would love it if you would tell one friend or family member or neighbor or a coworker or any one individual human that you think would like to show, tell them about RBP, tell them to subscribe to the Ross Bolen Podcast. Uh, if you do those two things, I promise that I will continue to work hard to make the show. Good rate and review. Tell one person that's it. Follow the show on Instagram at the Rose Bolen Podcast, we're on Twitter at Ross Bolen pod. You can follow me, Ross Bolen on Twitter, Instagram, and Snapchat at wrbolin. Micah, where can the members of the RBP gang follow you? You can follow me on Twitter and snap and Instagram. Twitter and Instagram @micahwiener. M-I-C-A-G-H W-I-E-N-E-R, and exciting new development, Ross. There's a new Instagram account. It's called power plant picks. Wow. @powerplantpicks, and guess what I am team follow back. It's just, this is just you screaming, uh, sports bets. Right now the only content I have is um, is Dylan, uh video of Dylan Shivery breaking his leg, uh, grabbing a rim- Okay. In street clothes. And, uh, a discount code for PF Chang's, but uh- That's two interesting pieces of content, though. But future, in the future I will be providing my power plant picks of the week @powerplant pics on Instagram. And, I am team follow back. <laugh> Nobody needs to know that your team follow back. Go to rowdy gentlemen.com. Grab a gang cubed shirt. Use RBP 30 for 30% off. Uh, I would remind you this is no nap shaming November. And, if in fact our good guy with a gun was napping in this story, which I have yet to confirm or deny, it just even more beautiful that it's no nap shaming November. Anyway, RBP 30, 30% off. Rowdy Gentlemen, we will catch you next time on episode 103, RBP 103, thank you for listening. Thank you for supporting the show. Follow us at the Ross Bolen podcast on Instagram, @rossbolenpod on Twitter. Fuck, Facebook. RBP 103 coming soon. Peace be with you. And, also with you. RBP 104, 104, this is 103, 104. 

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+The following program is brought to you by your friends at PodcastOne. Progressive presents Get Pumped. Inspiration to help you do insurance stuff. Okay, time out. You're going to let your budget be the boss of you? Take control with Progressive's Name Your Price tool. Tell us what you want to pay for your car insurance and we'll help you find options that fit your budget. Here's some music to get you pumped. DA NA DA DONG DA DONG DANG DANG! I here your budget laughing at you! Oh, wait, that's just those kids laughing at me. Ignore them! DA DONG DA DONG DA DONG DANG DANG! Progress casualty insurance company and affiliates. Price coverage match limited by state law. Hey, y'all. Today's cannabis are everywhere, and everyone. That sounds, like, almost a little nefarious, like, They're everywhere. They're everywhere. <laugh> But it's true! Cannabis users. You know, last night, they just legalized, uh, medicinal cannabis in Utah. They legalized in Michigan, right? I think, uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh- Was it Michigan or was non-sense? -hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh… I didn't see the result on that. And they're all just trying to, you know. You know who's probably behind that? Our sponsor, MedMen, because they- <laugh> They're just starting to copy our style out here in California. MedMen is a huge <inaudible> kit for pro marijuana legalization. A lot of you guys are like, Why am I listening to a MedMen ad in a state that isn't legal? They're working on it. They're coming for you. They're coming for you. They're coming for you. MedMen is bringing a premium and traditional shopping experience to the Cannabis space. You guys have heard us talk about this. It feels like you're going into a really nice retail spot that could have really fancy perfumes or really gorgeous makeup products, or really nice electronics, but no, guys. This is… It's… It's legal cannabis. This is the sharper image of weed. Yes <laugh>. And, uh, you know, they have plenty of staff there to answer all of your questions about all their products, or cannabis in general if you're new to trying recreational or medicinal cannabis, but they also have all these touchscreens all over the store. So if you're somebody who wants to control your own information gathering, uh, mission, you can absolutely do that at any MedMen location. And they have tons of different products for you regardless of how you like to consume cannabis. Personally, I'm trying to get away from flowers. mm-hmm <affirmative> And trying to do more edibles, but MedMen has plenty of options. They have vape pens, they have lotions. I use the CBD lotion, uh, on my hands, feels dope. Yes. Especially if you're somebody who works with your hands- Yep. um, like we both do. You know, we're always cooking and doing dishes. The lotions can feel really great to relax those muscles, so it's not just all about having a recreation good time, there's a lot of medicinal stuff that you could do with MedMen products as well. And these shops are open for both recreational and medicinal cannabis users. Anyone over 21 with a valid ID is welcome. So check out one of their 14 retail locations throughout Las Angeles, Orange County, San Diego, and the brand new MedMen store on the Las Vegas strip at paradise in Harmon. Just go to MedMen.com to find the nearest store near you. That's medmen.com. And you know we're not going to leave you hanging without a hot deal from our MedMen partnership. <inaudible> coming for y'all. Yeah, exclusively for listeners of Forked Up. Visit MedMen and tell them you heard about them on the Forked Up podcast for $10.00 off your order. Again, that's $10.00 off your order just by mentioning this podcast at checkout. And guys, just… just be like, Hey, uh, promo code Forked Up, and they'll be like, Okay, cool. They're going to give you the… They're going to give you the nod. <laugh> Yes. It's, uh, I know. Yeah. Yeah, and you can get the… the <unk:Defonce> dark chocolate bar, which I think retails right around $20.00. You get that for $10.00 a-and you want it. That's a fa-… That's a favorite of Michelle's. Oh, it's a all time fav. <laugh> For… For this $10.00 offer, it is limited one per customer podcast discount applicable in California and Nevada. Terms and conditions may apply. So do yourself right and visit a MedMen location today. Keep out of reach of children. For use by adults 21 years of age and older. PodcastOne presents Forked Up, a Thug Kitchen podcast. The show that discusses food, politics, and pop culture, all while trying to give a f***. Each week best selling authors and the minds behind Thug Kitchen, Michelle Davis and Matt Holloway are here to help give a voice to folks just trying to get their sh*t together in and outside of the kitchen. And now for your hosts, Michelle Davis and Matt Holloway. Welcome to another episode of Forked Up, your go to podcast for all things marmalade, macaroni, and mother fucking midterms. I am Michelle Davis. And I'm Matt Holloway. <laugh> <laugh> I am Matt Holloway. You like that? <laugh> I'm Matt. I'm like the Sponge Bob meme. Uh, I'm Matt Holloway. Yeah, it did feel like you were doing an impression of yourself sometimes. <laugh> Keep going, sorry. Uh… On today's pod, we're going to be discussing yet another salmonella outbreak, digesting the election results, and Smithfield foods finally faces their feces. Yeah, I wrote that headline, so… Yeah, um, facing your feces is… I… you know, fa-… Like… It's like a play on face the music. Is that what that is? I thought it was just alliteration. I don't know. It's the… It's the pig farm thing that we talked about <inaudible>. I know. I know what it is, I just really like how you phrased it. And later, we'll be joined by former WWE diva and all around boss, Natalie Eva Marie, to talk about her new podcast and how the hell she stays in such incredible shape while being so god damn busy. So stay tuned, y'all. It's about to get Forked Up. Are you one of those gut buys who are always going up to your friend's being, Yo, what time is it? Yo, what time is it? because you don't want to pull out your phone, it's very annoying. I pull out my phone, I look at the time, and I put my phone back in my pocket, and I'm like, Oh, what time is it? Yeah, because you actually just checked your tweets or something. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'll be on my phone for ten minutes not looking at the time. Let's take away a step. Yeah? Here, guys. I feel like we can make time a little bit more important and the phone a little bit more of background. Yeah. And do you know… Do you know what could help you with that? Fossil. Fossil with their new gen 4 smart watches. So it is a smart watch, so you can get all your alerts, all your tweets, and your 'stagrams, and your… All you distractions. Your snap chatties. Your snap chatties <laugh>. <laugh> Right to your wrist. But you also get the time in a stylish watch that nobody will know that you're nerding out over your heart rate and your steps with. And wouldn't you know it, we got the hook up here on Forked Up when you head over to Fossil.dom/thugkitchen. The watch is compatible with iPhones androids. Uh, they come equipped with all these features that we were talking about in the beginning. mm-hmm <affirmative> You don't want a watch that just measures your… your step rate or your heart count. This gives you all the… all the other distractions that you want. And it's also ugly. Like these are watches aren't ugly, which is my favorite part. And I was washing a bunch of dishes with it on the other day and I got it super wet, because I… And it's fine. And it was fine! Yeah. <inaudible>. It was fine, guys. This watch can fit whatever your lifestyle and it… we can receive calls, receive text. You can make payments using your watch, and you can get it sopping wet with dirty sink water and it'll be just fine, it'll keep looking great and stylish. Do you want a sopping wet, non-ugly, watch? Yes. Because that's <laugh>… <laugh> This is Michelle's pitch. And like Michelle was saying, if you need to pay on the go, you can leave your wallet behind or just keep it in your pocket and make payments directly from your smartwatch. The gen 4 touchscreen smartwatch does just about everything you need a watch to do and so much more. Fossil's known for standing out with a wide range of customizable digital dials and watch straps giving your limitless ways to match your personal style. Check out some of our favorite watches at fossil.com/thugkitchen, and while you're there, treat yourself, or someone you leave, because the holidays are coming up, to a beautiful and affordable smart watch from Fossil watches. Sharpen those knives, it's Forked Up at Thug Kitchen podcast. Alright, so we are recording this Wednesday morning the day after the midterms, so a lot of us- I think Trump is still talking right now. I can't believe people don't cut off his- It's wild that they don't, um, they just let him rant. That's crazy! Yeah. I wouldn't even let my dad have the microphone that long at a wedding. Yeah, we-… uh, I wou-… I don't think that I would let my, um, like any elderly people in my family even have, like, the remote to the TV. <laugh> Do you know how much it would hurt his feelings for someone to refer to him as elderly? Your dad? No, Trump. Oh, he… But he is elderly though. Also dad. I'm not arguing with the facts. Yeah. Anyways, so yeah, we're recording this Wednesday morning after the election. There's still calling a bunch of races. Um, I don't think that they've called the Georgia gubernatorial race, yet. No, um, Stacey Abrams is going to concede, um, because there's been so much fuckery, so she wants to make sure all, um, cast ballots get counted. Rightfully so. Which I think is fair. I usually… regardless of who the party is, when one party doesn't concede, I'm usually like, Dude, get over it, like, you lost. It does come across, like, like sour grapes. Right, but I got to say, um, Kimberly fucked with the election. Yeah. So, uh, good for Stacey, she's standing her ground. Yeah, and- Absolutely. Especially if it's not, I mean, she's not making any accusations that can't be backed up with verifiable facts. Didn't he purge 300,000… Over 300,000 eligible voters from the Georgia, uh, voting registry, yeah. How the fuck is he in charge of the oversight in a race that he is campaigning in? How is that legal? Uh… That's like owning the restaurant and being the health inspector. <laugh> I got an A, I promise. Yeah, you know, uh, sometimes I think instead of trying to export democracy all over the world, maybe we should, uh, improve ours here, uh, Dude, for real. because it's pretty deeply flawed. But what are you going to do? Beto was heart break. That was a sad… All those texts I've received from his campaign for no reason now. <laugh> Not for no reason, yeah. I think like, Ooh, my postmates is here! God damn it, Beto! That's just… that's the only text messages Michelle gets. Yeah, I get it. Just postmates and Beto. That's what he… Only two people who care about me. But it wasn't… it wasn't not for nothing, because, I mean, he made massive progress in Texas. Yeah, and hopefully will make Cruz a little bit more moderate, um, if he's scared about re-election in the future. Oh, well, I mean, I think he's going to take another run at POTUS. Like Cruz- You mean Cruz? Yeah. Cruz has to know he's profoundly unelectable. If there was… What's… What's he doing in Ohio? From, uh, <unk:Jim_Boogey> <unk:Yung_Wai>, he was like, Oh, great. Now I have to watch Ted Cruz's face melt for another six years. <laugh> <laugh> Yeah. He's not wrong. He's not wrong. Oh, fuck that guy. But yeah, I mean, the… When I was voting, there was a couple of key things that I sort of look for. I think that you and I agree on stuff like if you been a public defender, you know, if you're an educator, if you've been in, you know, the system, you understand. Um, a public school educator. Right. Fuck you, charter schools. Yeah. Sorry. Um, you understand not only what, um, these areas need, but how they work. Yeah. I have on thing, dude, like, if you're… if you're over 80, Auuugh. I don't think you should be in public office. Dude, I don't think you could help get me on the wi-fi network? Oh, they… I really don't want you… I don't think they know what wi-fi is if they're over 80. I really… and I don't want to be ageist, but at a certain point… Look, if you can't… If someone would take away your driver's license because you can't drive a car anymore, Yeah. -and you cannot independently buy yourself, navigate, public transit, mm-hmm <affirmative> -I don't think that you should be making decisions on behalf of the electorate. Well, but it's not even just that, it's that if you… you just don't have as much skin in the game. Right, that's what I'm saying. Like y-you're making decisions that… what the fuck does it matter to you? Yeah, and- Like… So I just really have a hard time if all things being equal between two candidates both, you know, fit my political leanings, and so forth and so on, and one is significantly younger? Like, I'm going to vote there. Like, that's… that's also an investment in my future, and my children's future, because that person can help usher in a new way of political thinking and new platforms that are important to people like myself and younger. Well, yeah, and there are also, um, a younger candidates going to be more like fresh out of like the job market or maybe the education system, so… A little bit more in touch. Yeah. Um, so that, I mean, like, there was one candidate on the ballot here in California that was so fucking old, it didn't list his education. <laugh> Yeah, what if <inaudible> text you. I was like, A horse taught him to read and write. <laugh> <laugh> I'm not voting for that dude. It's time for retirement. What the fuck are you doing in office? Go find a hobby. Hang out with your fucking grandkids. Go watch dr Phil, or fall down, or whatever fucking… use Life Alert, whatever old people do, I don't know. But again, like all things being equal, I'm going to have a really hard time from here on out voting for any baby boomer candidates. Yeah, I hear that. Because, fuck y'all, you've made every single decade about you, and you've ruined it for everyone else. Like you've destroyed social security, you've destroyed the housing market, you've destroyed everything. Like I'm tired of having to pick up the pieces. Like I heard there was some shitty reporter tweeted out like, Oh, there's so many millennials at this point and place, it looks like a line for avocado toast. and… Cool. Yeah. Thanks, go fuck yourself. Th-Thanks for crashing the fucking housing market. I know, and somebody else responded be like, Millennials have been fighting and dying in your wars since 2003, so show some fucking respect. Yeah, get the fuck out of here. Yeah, that's bullshit. Yeah, like, for people to think that we aren't a civic minded generation is out of your mind. Granted we are on the elder side of millennials, but you don't get to grow up immersed in the internet with all this information at your finger tips and not be civically minded. Yeah. I mean, it's a, uh, well… I mean, you could probably talk to this. There's a lot of your coworkers in the grocery store that just didn't vote. W-why is that? Yeah. Um, it was a lack of information. Honestly, and it was hard to convince- You think it's overwhelming for people to- Yes, and I think that- Because you and I both, like, w-we study political science. Well, it's not even just that we study, I just think we're interested in it. But I think if you work really hard and you multiple jobs and you have these long days, it's only one more thing for you to fucking pay attention to and care about when it's hard for you to see how that legislation and these elected officials- Affects your everyday. Affects your every day lives, and I totally get that. I do think people, um, are coming around more and more especially with, uh, here in Las Angeles with so many immigration issues coming up on the federal level- Oh, yeah. For sure. that I think people, um, are either first generation themselves, or you know, are just immersed in communities with many, many, immigrants, and so you can't not give a shit about your friend's grandmother, your friend's mother, your friend. Yeah. That being said, your friend's grandmother should not be running for office. No, they should not. If you're… Listen, I know this is ageist. I'm going to get some old people tweeting at me later. That's not going to happen, they're… they won't… They're not on twitter! <laugh> They're on Snapchat. If you're susceptible to a strong case of the flue: Listen, you shouldn't be making decisions that's going to last for decades. That's rough. Well, I also think if you have to cheat to win, like, you know, some of these, um… <unk:Kemp>. Yes, some of these, uh, political, uh, candidates are alleged to have done. Um, if you have to cheat to win, then you're still a fucking loser. Yeah. I'm, um, not here for this Trump rebranding his- He's literally… I'm looking at it right now, he's still talking. And what he's… So his talking points he's doing right now is he's sort of repackaging the election as a massive win for, um, conservatives, because they picked up, I think it was two senate seats? Yeah. Yeah, and the senates not really representative of- Well, it's not intended to be, but it just… Fuck you, like, you lost the house. Like… People are pissed. Yeah, grow up. Yeah. Like, you can't rebrand this a victory just like all your bankruptcies, or somehow, like… I mean, that's what he does is every time Trump takes an L, you know, whether it's bankruptcy or dozens of failed businesses, is that he gets up and he talks about how much better he is now because of that. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Wow. I mean, th-that's his brand is he just sort of rebranding shit to be his favor. Yeah, do you know what we call that? Um, my little brother's rules for playing any fucking board games. We started losing… Yeah. He started changing the rules. He's just changing so Andy's winning, baby! Yeah. <laugh> So, uh… Actually, the pink fives in monopoly are 50's now, so, uh… Actually, home base is over here, so fuck you, Michelle. Yeah. It's called I win. <laugh> Um, there is no jail right now, so… Yeah <laugh>. That's what Trump's doing. <laugh> Um, but there were some good news here in California as there always is, god bless California. Prop 12. Prop 12, yeah. Yeah. So for, uh, everyone else outside California, you guys saying right now that you don't give a shit. But this, I guarantee, will impact how guys buy food. This proposition requires factory farms to provide larger cages for hens, pigs, and calves. Farms that do not comply are not only penalized, but it would be illegal to sell any animal product raised in less than these new conditions. Yeah, and, you know, we provide so much of our animal agriculture to the rest of this country, so, you know, creating these new standards here in California will have a wide reaching effect on how farm animals are treated across the country. Yeah. And the measure was supported by most animal rights groups and, like, we're saying it, it passed. But some Cretic-… Critics of the, uh, measure were saying that it didn't do enough. And I… And I do agree… I agree. I agree, but this is progress. And progress is fucking slow, y'all. Well, it just… Nothing is ever gonna enough, like, for people who really care about animal welfare, like, they… Well, all or nothing attitude is not… that's not constructive. Yeah, it's not helpful. No. So this… I say… you know, we be grateful for the win and see it as another <inaudible>, you know, future where animal agriculture is humane and kind, and doesn't require any sort of legislation like this. <laugh> Yeah, I mean, I think it's got people paying attention to, um, just how fucked up mass animal production is. Yeah, uh, we're in this… I mean, from 10 years ago to now, is night and day, and we should count that as victory. Everybody knows, like you don't need to fucking documentary to come out every few years. In other great news… What's up? We want to thank the audience here. Yeah, let's stop talking about the election. Yeah. <inaudible> we're done with that. Um, let's thank the audience because through our promotion with Barilla Pasta, and, uh, the LA animal rescue donation matching that we, um… Foolishly agreed to. Foolishly agreed to. Dude, y'all, we, yeah, I for… I forget the, uh, context of that, but people started to… We were like, Yeah, we'll just match donations that LA animal rescue, and people started to screen shotting us. Like hundred dollar donations, it was like, Yo, chill! Chill! like… <laugh> Anyway, um, you guys helped, uh, us raise over $15,000.00 for charity in the month of October, so… That's great! Yeah, so, thank you, and- That's 31 days! That's fantastic! The money's going to, uh, uh, the New York Food Bank, the Ron Finley project, and LA animal rescue, so we really appreciate everybody, um, giving their donations and coming up and supporting the Pasta, Barilla, and everything else. We'll do another… We'll do another restaurant, um, <unk:LTO> soon. We li-… We like doing those. Yeah, and, um, I think it's always great when we get to do it for charity. mm-hmm <affirmative> Um, because people really show up and, um, it really makes, uh, the whole experience a lot more pleasurable, so… I know that, me personally, is a consumer. If I'm giving somebody my money, and they're like, Hey, part of this is going to help something, it's an easier buy for me. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. So. Um, and then let's move on to the stupidest I've heard in a long time. Yeah, you want to talk about no nut November? What the fuck. I don't know. I don't know where this came from. Like, you… And so everyone was doing sober October. Fine. Everybody. Okay. I totally, well, you know, in… in this social media realm… Yes. I respect and exercise in self-discipline. Yes. Good for you. Absolutely. What the fuck is No Nut November? Who is that helping? Yeah, so please explain. So… <laugh> I really do not know where this came from. I think that it's… But explain for people who maybe don't understand what No Nut November is referring to? No… No orgasms for the month of November. No masturbating, no sex, no nothing. I don't understand why. What is this proving? I don't know. But to talk about this… Wh-what is this helping? I… I don't know. Peop-… eh… What is it? You know what this is? It's like the fucking bet in Seinfeld. Yeah. And Kramer's just out immediately. <laugh> Because he saw a woman out the window from across the street. <laugh> Oh, no! Yeah. But it's just… Fucking creepy. It's… it's just stupid. Also, everyone's just going to lie. Oh, for sure. I feel like this is… this is like a, uh, privilege contest. It's just like you have all the access to the porn in the world at any time you want and you are… you are abstaining from that for a… for no reason other than talking about it on social media. You're spitting in the face of 13 year old boys who have too many parental locks on their computers. There are people out there who do not have the access you do to porn. How dare you. I just don't under-… I don't understand what it's proving. I mean, like, do you. Yeah. But, like, or don't, apparently. You know what? Everyone doing… No! No! No! <laugh> Don't do you for the whole month. Yeah, I don't get It, it's stupid. I would say ev-everyone who's doing No Nut November is just an excuse for why you're single. Um, real quick, I was thinking last minute, it was like, Oh, you know, if I ran for office, like, what kind of stuff… like, what could they dig up on me? This whole podcast. I know, I was just thinking about our… our… our, uh… Fucking robots. Yeah, exactly! <laugh> Yeah. Liter-… Literal… Pretty much anything. Every episode. And I was like, She fucks robots! DUN DUN DUNNNN. <laugh> Yeah. Pretty much everything we've talked about on the podcast. Alright, anyway. Let's move on to salmonella, my favorite topic. Yeah, we're getting into food news now. Yeah, guys. Let's talk about our food stuff. No cake mix is safe. Duncan Hines has issued a voluntary recall for 4 types of its cake mix after an investigation into its salmonella outbreak continues. The FDA announced Monday that it was working with the centers for disease control and prevention to investigate a positive finding of salmonella in the brand's classic white cake mix. So they also voluntarily recalled, uh, classic yellow, classic golden butter, and signature confetti. Back to confetti cake! Guys! Funfetti is in danger! More like Gutfetti. Oh my, you know. Sal-… Salmonvanilla. Yeah, so guys, and this is all over the US and internationally, so… it's all recalled. Don't be eating any cake mix any time soon. Oh, so what a sad day. Like, that even the cake mix isn't safe. Yeah. Well, did they… They haven't figured out why. They haven't figured out why? Yeah. Oh, it says they're doing an investigation right now. Yeah. Yeah. Huh. Hmm. mm-hmm <affirmative>. But some people are getting their shit kind of together. Yeah. Smithfield, which we've talked about on previous episodes. They have a bunch of farms that are hog farms. And during the hurricane, we've talked about the, uh, the pig shit. Yeah, in North Carolina, yeah. They all, um, you know, overflowed, poisoned all the ground water and all the stuff. So they're finally agreeing to… They've said that it was unfeasible for them to do anything to make these lagoons more friendly to the environment and to the local communities. I'll bet that's changed. Yeah, and so now all of sudden, they are saying they can deal with, so they're going to, um, put a plastic cover on all of them. That's it? Yeah. They're putting a plastic lid on it? Yes, so- What are you, a fucking Starbucks? Yeah, the covers won't just keep water out and capture the odors, they'll also capture the methane, um, and they will use that natural gas into commercial, um, heating and power. This feels like a bandaid. I mean, yes. I mean it's some responsibility. At least there's saying like, Okay, yeah, we could've done more. Yeah, but the environmental defense fund, which has been working with Smithfield to reduce environmental impacts says that this could capture more than 85,000 metric tons of methane per year, which can replace the burning of other fossil fuels. Methane, the biggest heat trapping impact right now is after its release and the EDF calculates that will have the same immediate effect as limiting green house emissions over 700,000 homes. Damn. Okay, well, that's… I mean, okay. Alright. <laugh> L-let's see how it works. Yeah. I'm just saying. I'm not hating. Saying. Just Saying. Smithfield, um, so… Also, I didn't realize Smithfield I think of as such an iconic American brand, you know, because they've been in North Carolina for so long, but now they're owned by a giant, uh, Chinese conglomerate. Oh, really? Yeah. That's funny. So my fucking ass didn't have enough money to put put some saran wrap over these shit piles. Oh, they just don't care. Yeah, they just don't care. Yeah, they just don't give a fuck. Yeah. It's again, I'll take any step forward. It's a step. It's progress. Like we were saying earlier, like, shit's not just going to change completely over night, but these… these are baby steps towards progress. Yeah, and our next guest, Natalie Eva Marie, she really talks about how… Imagine if you had started 30 days ago, imagine where you would be now. She's like… She's a big proponent of focusing on these small steps to get towards your bigger goals, and that it something we get into the conversation with her, so you guys will definitely want to stay tuned. We'll be back in moment with more of Forked Up, a thug kitchen podcast. Hi, it's Jamie, Progressive's number one number two employee. Leave a message at the- Hey, Jamie, it's me, Jamie. This is your daily pep talk. I know it's been rough going ever since people found out about your acapella group, Mad Harmony, but you will bounce back. I mean, you're the guy always helping people find coverage options with the Name Your Price tool. It should be you giving me the pep talk. Now get out there, hit that high note, and take Mad Harmony all the way to nationals this year. Sorry, it was pitchy. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Alexa isn't the only one with breaking news. Make sure you hang around at the end of this podcast for the latest breaking headlines on the AP news minute. Can't get enough Thug Kitchen? Then take a listen to any of PodcastOne's other fantastic food shows. Celebrity chef and top chef favorites, Richard Weiss takes you behind the scenes at the food world every Tuesday with Starving for attention. And Chef and Restaurateur, Rick Bayless, and food journalist, Steve Delinsky, team up every Wednesday to travel the globe while tackling food trends on the feed. Check out Starving for Attention and The Feed every week on PodcastOne or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Guys, if you spend good money on alcohol and use generic mixtures, like what's the point? It was… Y-you're ruining it. It's like that one uncle of yours who was talking about how he loved Fiji water. And then he put ice cubes from an unfiltered tray that he had poured out of the sink, put it in the freezer… Uh, dude, this is… This is not a plug for Q Drinks. For real though, if you're going to be serious about your drink, low end mixers are filled with artificial ingredients and sweeteners that kill the flavor of your spirit that master distillers have agonized over for generations. And that's where our new sponsor, Q Drinks, comes in with some of the best tasting mixers in the world. Q Mixers are using real ingredients, have more carbonation, and are left sweet with no artificial sweeteners like high fructose corn syrup, which just allows your great drink to shine through. We've been using Q drinks for a lot of our cocktails and stuff for, like, years. Oh, yeah. So when they… when they said that wanted to be a sponsor, I was, Hell, yeah! and they sent a box of drinks to our office, and I took a lot. <laugh> By a lot, he means, I haven't seen any of them. I think they sent us stuff like tonic water, ginger beer, ginger ale, club soda, grapefruit soda, and cola. The cola's good as… as far as… I've never seen them in our place. And you won't! <laugh> Born in Brooklyn, Q drinks is the fastest growing premium mixer brand in the United States. You can check out their products at some of the best bars and restaurants in the country, or try out a free sample. Just go to qdrinks.com/try, and enter code thug kitchen, all one word. Again, head over to qdrinks.com/try, and enter code thugkitchen, all one word, because if most of your drinks is a mixer, then why would you mix with anything else? Q Drinks, y'all. Welcome back to Forked Up, a thug kitchen podcast. Please welcome Natalie Eva Marie. Yo! Woo! What's up guys. What's up, what's up. Thank you so much for having me, I'm so excited. Of course. Thank you for coming on. We were chatting, not rolling, talking about, like, internet wormholes. We're talking about Casper, the movie. Oh my god, yeah. Was that Devin Sawa? Yeah, it's okay. So I was arguing… Audience, let's catch you up. Um, I was arguing that a lot of girls of a certain age had a… their first, uh, kind of romantic moment… The first… The first girl boner. Yeah, the first girl boner when Casper turns into a real boy at the end of the Casper movie For sure. For sure. Yeah, and he's Devin Sawa, and he… he goes to dance with her and he goes, Can I keep you? and it's like, Oh, shit! That's so… Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, like, any… any other time to say that line to a woman… mm-hmm <affirmative> So fucking inappropriate. Can I keep you? What the fuck! Get out of here! Fucking creep. Oh, yeah, <inaudible>, let me tell you a little nine year old Michelle, or whatever, was just like, That is the most romantic thing I've heard in my life. No, for sure. Like, um, I love you. Can you keep me? Yeah, exactly! Yeah, it doesn't matter that you're dead. I know, exactly. I don't understand the physics of Casper, because, like, stuff would pass through him, some stuff he would contain, doesn't make sense. True. That's the plot hole in Casper. Inconsistencies. Solid point. Solid point right there. This is an odd start to the interview. Thanks for being on the show. Oh my god, absolutely.Thank you for having me. Um, we thought we kind of get right into it. Yeah. Um, so, you know, from your start with WWE and total divas, that all happened, it seems to us, really super fast for you. Like, does it feel like your life's moving a mile a minute? Does that feel like a hundred years ago when you first did that or is it both? Honestly, a little bit of both. Yeah. Because, no lie, it did happen super fast, like a blink of an eye. I mean, everything happened within, I would say, uh, from me actually getting total divas to then being on the main roster of WWE. Yeah. It was all within 48 hours. Damn! Fucking crazy! And then prior to that, I went through a long of process of, like, they do diva searches, which is basically the… WWE goes to all the major cities, and states, and does a diva search, which is like a massive cattle call, and to see who, like, who the next WWE diva is until the came to Las Angeles. So I went through, like, that process and just like the call backs, and then, um… But you were trying to be an actor, so like going big calls, like that's- Yeah. I just another thing. Yeah, exactly. It was just like one of those things where I was like, Okay, cool, here's another one, you know. You get told No probably 99% of the time, so it's just like, Uh, you know, and I didn't really know it was WWE until I was like, Hold on. I walked into the headquarters in Las Angeles and I was like, Wait a minute, this is like WWF, like way back in the day that I used to watch with all my brothers. Hulk Hogan, I was like, This is crazy. and then fast forward, I was like, Wow, if I can actually land this job, it has everything I want to do infused into one. So I played soccer at in college and I was missing that competitiveness and, like, just that the physicality and just, like, working out, and just kind of, like, kind of the comraderies. So I was like, Oh, wow. If I can get this, boom, that is filled. then on top of that, you get to be a character, which I already was like wanting to be an actress. And then you get to perform in front of a live audience and travel the world. So I was like, Wow, if- Wasn't that terrifying though? Performing in such a massive audience? Um, yes. I mean, the best, best, adrenaline rush ever. Oh, I can only imagine. But also nerves, unbelievable, especially because in a sense, you know, I don't think to this day, or I don't think ever, to be honest, there will be another person that kind of got thrown into the fire as quickly as I did. Yeah, you sure did. Yeah, and I always related everything to, like, the minor leagues of baseball, right. So, like, you have the triple… triple A, which you have all these guys that make it to triple A and they're like, you know, playing, and they're in the hopes of making it to the major leagues, right. Yeah, they get called up. Exactly. Yeah. So that's what was really supposed to happen with me, you know. I did, I got all the way to the four week in ring physicality try out to see if you could really handle all of the movement and just the physicality to you- What's that like? Do they just throw ladders at you and shit? <laugh> <laugh> They're just, And now nails! like. You know what? It was actually really crazy looking back on it, because I'm a field athlete, so as soon as the first day of the tryout and doing like forward rolls, and backward rolls, I was like, Wait, what is… This is crazy. Yeah. And then I remember, like, I have never been as sore in my life from doing everything in the ring, because the movement in there is just bananas even like running the ropes. mm-hmm <affirmative> You know, you have rope burn and, like, your ribs are all nice and bruised up because it's not a normal movement whatsoever, and the ropes are hard. They look like they're not, but they look like that when you have, you know, 200 pound dudes like bouncing off of them, you know. When the girls are running, you don't see as much slack just because obviously we weigh less, but… They make those ropes so elastic and <inaudible>. Right? Like when they step and do it and somebody steps down on it and it lifts up and then the other person just casually… Totally. Dude, I tried doing that in a boxing ring once, and it snapped in my face, and I looked like such a fucking idiot. I did not look <inaudible>. I was like, I'm going to lose this match. <laugh> <laugh> Like this isn't happening. Um, but yeah, so I did the in-ring four week tryout, fell in love with it, I got a developmental contract, which is basically to the minor leagues so they call it NXT, which now has progressed into it's, like, own beast, which is amazing, you know, they have it on the WWE network and they travel the world as well, too. And then from there, I was just like, Okay, I'm going to move to Orlando, to their training facility, and then work on the craft, learn how to wrestle, learn my character, see what I really want to become, because that's where you, you know, you kinda like perfect the craft and figure out what your… what your niche is, because, like, in WWE, it's all entertainment. So you really want to find a character that sticks out. So I skipped all of that, and then ended up going into, I guess you could say like auditions slash interview, uh, <inaudible> because I was living in LA, so they called me up and said, Hey, you know, uh, will you go ahead into this interview? and I was like, Yeah, sure, no problem. Sat down for three hours, got, you know, entered… interviewed where it's like, you know, background, age, ethnicity, family, all of this stuff. And then I haven't had this feeling maybe twice in my life where I'm just like, Holy shit. I think got this. As soon as I walked out, I just felt like this… I felt so good about it that I called Jonathan and I was like, Oh my god, I think I got this and I think everything's going to change, like, within hours, because that's what they said. They were like, This project, we can't really tell you what it is, but it's moving that fast that if you do get it, your life could change within 48 hours, and I was like, Oh, wow. It gives me anxiety just hearing it. It's like really crazy when I say this story back because it seems so surreal, because like you said at the very beginning, yeah, it went, like, at the blink of an eye. Yeah. It really was that quick, you know. Everything was happening that fast, and I called up Jonathan and I'm like, Hey, I think, you know, I possibly got this. and me and him only been dating maybe like six weeks at the time. Oh, wow. So he was with me at the very beginning in my tryout. And so, uh… So he's seen this whole thing. He saw the whole progression. At first, you know, I told him that I was going to be a WWE diva and if I get this opportunity, basically don't be that guy that tries to, like, hold me back, because I'm taking if I get it. A-fucking-men. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? Yeah, okay. <laugh> I don't need any dead weight. No, totally, and I had come to a point in my life where I had reached a certain age and I was looking for something extremely specific and I wasn't going to get into a relationship if that wasn't going to let me progress in that field that I wanted to that I've already been pursuing. And as soon as I told him that, he was super, like, Hey, if this what you want to do, I'm right there with you, let's go. and he, like, packed all my lunches for my tryout, like, because obviously Jonathan's really into nutrition, and fitness, and everything, so he had made my breakfast, had my lunch, totally made sure I was all iced up because I was super banged up after every single day. That's our fucking partner right there. I can't say… You know what? I work with my husband, too, and I can't say enough good things about him because he is the true definition of a ride or motherfucking die. Like, he is… Without him, like, I don't know if I would even be sitting here today just because he was that supportive and really like… Ladies and gentlemen, take notes. Yeah. Take fucking notes. It's very true. Me and him talk about it to this day, like, especially because I have been in, you know, past relationships before him and maybe they weren't the best, clearly, because obviously I ended up marrying Jonathan. But it's so imperative who you pick as a partner especially in this industry, or whatever field that you're really trying to pursue, because that energy does not go towards nonsense. It goes towards, you know, exactly what you want to do, what you want to overcome, or what you want to get, you know, with… with whatever job, or career, or whatever it may be. And so I was very much able to focus on the task at hand instead of trying to grab his phone and live through his DM's or trying to see who he's texting. Yeah, and or not bruise his ego with your- Success. Right, right, right. So I didn't have to worry about any of that and just really focus on, like, Okay, this what I really want to do, let's do this. So I call him, we end up driving to the bay area, which we're both from. Yes. Girl, yes. Yes. I'm so so excited for whole <inaudible>. Like, what the… We're, like, from towns right near each other. Bay bitches. Bay bitches, what's up! Yes! And you know what? I have to say, like, anybody that I've ever met from the Bay area, it's a constant. It's like an immediate connection. Oh, yeah! Like, it's just, I don't know what it is, I'm not quite sure, but it just as always like, Oh, okay. We, like… we get it. We get it. We get it. <laugh> Um, so we ended up driving up to my parents house and that was the first time Jonathan met both my parents, and I'm Mexican Italian so you could only imagine like what… Italian man, dad, like very protective. I have all brothers, only girl. Um, and that was a Friday. Saturday, I get a call saying, Hey, you know what? You got the job. You'll be flying out on, uh, Tuesday to wrestle mania, New York. and- Damn. They had also said in that same conversation, What do you think about dyeing your hair? um, but I blacked out, because, like, I had already, like, holy shit! This is… this is the deal! Yeah, it's too much! This is… This is moving. This is… This is… This is… This is what's hap-… This is what I've been praying for. This is, like, what I've always wanted and it's happening. Like, this is insane. So I totally blacked out, didn't really pay attention to the whole, like, hair color thing. Yeah. Walked back inside, told Jonathan, tell my family, everyone's like, Oh my god. but no one really knows, like, you don't really- What it means. What it means, right. Yeah. And you don't know. So, um, we're really excited. So then on Sunday, Jonathan, uh, he asks my dad for my hand in marriage. Oh, damn, that's- What a week! No, totally. Super crazy. And mind you, my mom super little Mexican lady. She is, like, the el jefe of she's the matriarch of the family. So I made sure that, like, he got it in with my mom at the very beginning of our relationship so my mom already loved him, knew what was up, until she already had, like, kind of the one up on what was going down. Yeah. It… he has dad's permission. Totally. Air quotes! Air quotes! Right. Mom is the… Mom's really, yeah. Mom's really, like, holding it down. She's the gatekeeper. Yeah, 100%. If my mom… If she likes you, you're in like Flynn. If she does not like you, sorry buddy, it's going to be a tough ride. So that went super well. My dad, you know, he's a good read on character and really can see, like, the genuineness in Jonathan and basically, you know, gave him the… the permission. And we didn't get engaged right there or anything. He just basically made sure that if the time came, he had my dad's blessing. Yeah So, um… <inaudible> Exactly. So… God damn. I know, he wasn't playing around. Yeah. I mean… It's like, Hey, listen. I'm making an investment here. <laugh> <laugh> I'm making… You know what? That's what I told Jonathan. I was like, Ooh, he's smart. Yeah. He was very smart because he knew once I get on that plane, he was like, You know what? Imma lock that. Imma lock her down right now. Yeah, exactly. Like, mm-mm. I'm making lunches. I'm making breakfast. It's an investment. But no, I mean, you're right, it's really important to have a partner, um- Yeah. who supports what you want to do. When I moved out here, the person I was with at the time was not supportive. Like, I was, you know, in, uh, I was on a film project, and it was, like, I was working 60, 70 hours a week. Um, I flew from, like, London, to LA, to like Hawaii for a scout in, like, the span of four days. Wow. I'm fucking tired. Yeah. Like, you know, living in and out of a suitcase. For sure. And I came home and she's just yelling at me about my job. I'm like, Yo, I didn't… I didn't come here for this, like… Yeah, and I've had… I've had partners where, like, I would kind of not want to tell them the good news. I'm like, Oh, the book is selling really well, or, I just booked this TV thing, because then they get all jealous or they get all upset, or they whatever. And it's like you don't fucking need that shit. No, it's like, yeah, be supportive. Or… or don't. You lift me up or get the fuck out. Yeah. Like, the wh-… That's how I treat you. Yeah. Like, yeah. And it's so… it's so important because you're out there hustling, you're out there hustling and doing your thing, and really trying to make your dreams come a reality and then to come home and have to and this… The one person you confide in is like telling that you're doing it wrong. Right. You know, yeah. Maybe you should be doing this or you're not, like… It's just you don't need that uncertain, because already our heads and our brains talk to us enough. Oh, yeah, exactly. Talk shit all day long. So to have somebody else that is supposed to love you, and support you, and want the best for you adding to that is just, like, you don't need it. Yeah, you don't need that shit. So if you're listening and you're with a trash partner and you know who you are… <laugh> You say buh bye bye. Yeah, break up right now. Dump the motherfucker. It's, uh… It's those dudes that, uh, when they get together with other dudes, they bitch about their partners. Yeah, fuck you! You chose them! Get out! I'm like, Dude, you… you re-up everyday. You can leave at any point. Why you… don't hang around and bitch about your partner, yeah. Yeah, don't disrespect them and waste their life, too. It's your fucking decision. Yeah, Jesus, so… I agree. Jonathan and I talk about it all the time because it's one of those things where it's like we kind of… we don't get it when it's like… Because we all can do whatever we want. Like we… we live in California. Like we live in the United States. Like, if you don't want to be with somebody, pack your shit. You bounce, yeah. Bounce, yeah. Like, it is that easy. You know, it's just sometimes people like to stay in comfort and misery likes company sometimes. Yeah, exactly. Don't let momentum keep you there. Oh, I've… I've been in relationships that were fucking miserable, but I was like, This is familiar. That's… that's all. Yup. Same. When I've… I've gone back to relationships because I'm like, It's familiar, it's comfortable, it's easy. I know this, and this is where you know it's at. That's why it was sorta… Yeah. But it holds you back in the long run. It really does. And you're not able to, like, really excel or exceed your expectations of what you really want until you find the partner that you're supposed to be with and that helps you kind of, you know, elevate, and that's where I'm lucky because Jonathan definitely helps me. Well, and, you know, like… like we said, you came to LA to be an actress and then you got this and you blew up. And now you, you know, you got movie roles, you launched a clothing line, you're doing all this stuff. Yeah, would you chill out? <laugh> <laugh> Like… We're all trying to be entrepreneurs here. She's cornering every market. Yeah, how much does this, like… Stay out of food. I'll talk territory. <laugh> Good attitude. Like, I read a interview we're talking about, you know, just say yes. Like, you know, opportunities might not look what you thought, but you can make them something for yourself. Like, how much is… do you think that has contributed to your success? A ton. I mean, I went to school, I graduated with a business degree. Cal state what up. I know, seriously. Cal state <inaudible> titan right here. Yeah, I went to SCSU, so <crosstalk>. There you go, there you go, there you go. Um, and then I was just wasn't ready to use my degree. Yeah. I just wasn't… I didn't have that, like, Okay, here we go. I want to go into the corporate world. This wasn't really in me, um, to have that, you know, so that's what I ended up really pursuing and going to LA and kind of pursuing that dream. But always, and Jonathon has an MBA, smart motherfucker. Oh my god. I'm like, uh. To this day I feel like… You invested in him too. I did. I'm no dummy. I'm not dummy. I will make sure, you know, he has, uh… Mutual investments. Exactly, exactly. Um, so… I was talking to him and I'm like, You know, I've always wanted to own my own business. I've always, always, always, wanted to do it. and he was like, You know what? Let's do it. Just like that. Yeah. It was that simple. It was just like an idea then all of a sudden he was like, Well, if you really want to, let's make it happen. and then, you know, we throw out… throw out some ideas with each other and sure enough that's how NEM fashion got created. It was just like kind of really quick and kind of on a whim, and I wanted to do something of that nature. And then now, two… two years, we had our two year anniversary September 5th. And you're Nordstrom, right? We are. Thank you, yes. That's crazy. Yeah, we just launched Nordstrom's, uh, five months ago. Our sunglasses, yeah. That's so crazy. That's big. Yeah, it's really cool, because I used to… when I was 17, I was on the fashion board, uh, in Nordstroms, like, just interning, you know, just a kid in high school. And they had a little program where you can go and you meet other people. I want to say actually a… a girl from Deer Valley was on the board probably. Seriously, it was crazy. Um, so to kind of it have it, you know, 16 years later come full circle where actually my product is now in the store that I used to just like intern at and be in full of. It's those… It's those weird benchmarks because obviously… I mean, you're on national television. You're doing all these things. You're meeting all these movie stars, but like, getting into Nordstrom where, like, your mom can go and buy your stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Like that is like a benchmark that feels more real sometimes than these crazy big things. Like when our books made it into Target, I was like, Oh, shit. That's huge. Oh shit. <laugh> That's like… you guys are some big dogs. Ah, we're alright. That's amazing. But you know what I mean? But like Nordstrom is the same thing where you're just like, Oh, shit! Yeah. Like, that's a store that I went into all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah. No, for sure. It's definitely like, Whoa, I can't believe it's happening. and it's kind of surreal. Yeah. Because things do move so quickly that sometimes I'm like, Wait a minute, that was, like, amazing. that that really did happen, you know. And sometimes it's taking a moment and celebrating it instead of trying to chase, like, the next… the next here, you know. That's so hard though, isn't it? Right? We're fucking terrible about celebrating. We literally… We even announced this on the podcast, but we've agreed to, uh, 4th and 5th books, and… Wow, congratulations. Thank you so much. Thanks. But, like, we just were like, Okay, and like what else do we have to do today? and we just kept going, like, you know… Yeah, and then I texted him- Yeah, that's so bad. I know! I'm the same way. Yeah. It's like… And we… And we tell our audience like there's a lot of people who are like, How do I chase that thing that I want to do? How do I get into like entrepreneurship? and like, it comes at a struggle, and it comes at a cost. Yeah. One You gotta give something up. Because you hustle hard. You really do. You really, really, do, and there's been, like, a lot of, uh, fear, a lot of doubt, a lot of tears, a lot of, um, mistakes, a ton of rejection, and it's just one of those things where it's like a constant- You gotta have thick skin. You really do. No. I… I couldn't agree more, because you… you do get beat down. For sure. And, like, that's also kind of having a partner to is super imperative right there also because it's so easy to just say, You know what, fuck it. Yeah. Fuck it, I'm done. Like, I don't want to do this anymore, because you get told no or you get somebody shoots down an idea or tries to say like, Eh, it's not that good. or, It's not good enough. or, what… Then your voice is like, Ah, shit, maybe it's not. or, Hmm, I don't know. Yeah, you need a cheerleader. You do. You do. You need something. You need something. It's… Yeah, it's, uh, when I moved out here, there was, um, a handful of guys that, like, I kind of like met and we all met all, like, hung out right away and we were all kinda doing the same thing. Like, some guys wanted to be in comedy, some guys wanted to be writers, some guys wanted to be <crosstalk>. Just in entertainment. Yeah. Yeah. And I cannot tell you. Like, almost all of them have moved back home and given up because it's like they didn't get that audition or they didn't… they didn't get that project. And it's like, Dude, this is a town built on maybe. Like, there's not… there's nothing sure in LA. You don't know where your next job's going to come from. Oh my god, 100%. It's so much uncertainty that it's… it's… It can break you. And that's why a lot of people end up quitting and moving and just saying, You know what? Forget it. I get it. And I see- I get it, too. I get it. I see them on Instagram, and they're married, and they got a kid, and then like, Good for you! Oh. <laugh> <laugh> But that's what I like about your Instagram, too, because you're always, you know, really trying to motivate people, you're like imagine if you had started 30 days ago on your goals. Like, where would you be already? Like, get it fucking going. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Because you don't want to pretend that you're not working fucking hard. For sure. All the time and I appreciate that because especially in this culture, like, everyone wants to put their most perfect foot forward. Abs-… For sure. Yeah. And that's what I really liked about that article you wrote on Instyle about, you know, you… How much you work on your sobriety, but I… I felt the last paragraph really applied to anybody who's struggling with, like, mental health, or substance abuse, or just trying to take care of themselves. You wrote, uh, Here's what I wished somebody had told me back then. Your life won't magically transform over night. There'll be extreme highs and extreme lows. The chances are that you'll relapse at least once, but don't quit. To those starting the program, stick with it, keep pushing forward, because no matter how hard it gets, I promise you it's worth it. That's great advice. Thank you. Yeah. Uh, well, look it. <laugh> What are you do when your <inaudible> making me blush a little bit, wow. But I thought it was just such good advice, because it… A lot of people go through these hard times for sure. And they'll… They'll fall back and they'll step back. Yeah. And need to hear that from somebody that you could tell, like, looking at your Instagram, people, if they're not reading anything, they can tell themselves like, Look how fucking perfect this girl is. She's handed all this shit. Like, she never has a bad day, right. Right. Right. I thought that was a very human thing that you wrote. Yeah. Which is being like it's tough. Yeah. You know, you got to work at it every day. For sure. And it's baby steps, it's not… it's not gonna happen. It's… It's not gonna be a switch that turns and then suddenly life is better. Is it hard to be like that vulnerable like when you are writing that stuff on your Instagram or you're writing these articles, like, to show the process to, like, show the how the sausage is made? You know what, a little bit, but I really think that's where, like, WWE and being on the reality show truly helped me be able to because we do live in a social media era right now. And, um, I was really scared to open up on the reality show because I'm always, like, you know, even just like my parents are amazing, but I don't want them to feel, like, embarrassed or, like, anything like that, you know? Oh, 100%. You know, like, I don't want to embarrass the family. Exactly. And like, I was very much raised, like, you know, don't put your shit out on the street. Yeah, oh yeah. And so, um, you know, giving… my parents really allowing me and giving that strength and, okay, you can do, you know, you can open yourself up and it's not like we're going to be embarrassed. If anything, they're extremely proud. Um, really helped me to write stuff like that, or even on my Instagram, because I fall a <inaudible> into it to, like, posting of course, like, selfies or making it look like everything is like peaches and cream and stuff like that, but I also want anybody that follows me know that it's not all that. Yes, I love beauty, I love hair, I love, like, the whole like yay flam, whatever. But if people read your captions, like, they'll see that that's not what it is. For sure. For sure, for sure. And, like, following me on, like, my stories and stuff and, like, every Thursday, I'm a secretary at, uh, um, my home group in New Port Beach, uh, AA meeting, and I let people in because there's so much going on right now, and, like, there so… And you see people dying, literally. Left and right, in front of me, they're overdosing, or whatever it may be, and I do want to let people know that certain things, whether it's like certain, I guess, wins that I do get, there is so much struggle. There is so many days where it's not amazing or I'm not winning, or, you know, it's just like, fuck. It's a constant battle of, like… Or you're putting in all this work and you're not seeing the rewards. 100%, yes. Absolutely. And, like, having to go that extra mile of like, Okay, well I gotta do my program. I have to do this first. I have to- you know what I mean? Like, doing those little baby steps and you're exactly right; things don't happen overnight. You know what I mean? And, like… It takes commitment. Oh my goodness, yes. If anything, it's very much an consistency. And, like, sometimes you fall off. And, like, that's okay. You gotta be… You gotta be kind to yourself, you know. Totally. And allow yourself like, you know, nobody's perfect. No one's perfect, and if you say you are, no that's… im-impossible. And to, like, give yourself a little bit of credit when you do achieve what that is, you know, even if you whether it's your sobriety racking up a couple days or a week, or something like that, you know. And if you do have, like, a fall, a slip up, that's okay, just get back on the horse. Yeah. You know, it's one of those things of, like, just constantly being relentless in whatever it is that you want. You know, whether it is your sobriety or just trying to write a book, or, um, you know, go after whatever is it- Yeah, or deal with depression, or anything like that. Totally. Exactly. Just, like, stay in your own corner. Yes. Yeah. I, uh, my mom died from, um, Cirrhosis. She was an alcoholic. Oh, wow. So, like, that's something that I try to, like, have to constantly, like, Oh, am I drinking too much? It was this… Right. And then I, you know, stopped for a while. But yeah, it's so important to stay, like… Like I said, like, stay in your own corner and keep up the work even when nobody is there patting you on the back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the hardest part because you… Yeah, because you know I want a gold star for everything. Oh my god, me too. I want a… Jonathan… Jonathan calls it, he's like, Oh, you only want that-a-boys, huh? I was like, Yeah, motherfucking do, give a that-a-boy, yes, you are doing good. Give me a pat on the motherfucking back. Yeah, it doesn't even need to be money. A pat on the back? I will be like, oh my god, thank you so much. I will work for ten more hours now for you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I have been sober 24 hours and not pistol whipped a single person. <laugh> <laugh> Give me a pat on the back. Yeah, exactly. Yes. Yes. Yes. And what's wrong with that? Fucking nothing. Yeah. Um, well, you're also in incredible shape. Like, there's no question about that. Thank you. Thank you. And you've always been super athletic like we've been talking about. How do you balance your fitness with crazy fucking schedule? I was… I was waiting for you to be like, Can I keep you? Yeah. <laugh> <laugh> That was good. Our producer has it up on his computer. Oh, man. Oh. Wow. They are. Etsy changed me. I became a woman. Seriously. They are very close. Yes. I like… oh my god, I love him. I was like, Ohh, so cute. Yeah. Because these… He was so pretty, he was so beautiful. What's… What's he up to these days? Who knows? I know. Devin, frickin DM me. <laugh> <laugh> Well, yes, so how do you, but how do you balance. Like, the discipline of, like, staying in the shape that you're in with your crazy fucking schedule. Honestly, you know what? I look at my fitness especially now, uh, a lot like my sobriety. So I… So now I work out for my whole, like, mental state. Yeah. When I work out, I feel so much better. I don't know what it is, but I mean, obviously, when you do work, you do, like, release endorphins and stuff like that. But I just feel so much better, like, throughout the day. So I kind of try to piggy back. So I'll wake up super early. I wake up at, like, four or five, and try to go to the gym, knock that out, and then I'll hit a meeting. You got that… that Mark Wahlberg schedule. <laugh> Shit. Mark Wahlberg, what's up? <inaudible> trying to get beast mode with me, buddy. Yeah. I like… I like when his… his, like, daily routine came out and then, like, all the bros were like, Oh, I'm following this. I'm like, You gonna wake up at 3:00 AM to pray? Is that what you're going to do? Yeah, right. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes. You're right. Yup. Go ahead. I… I actually saw the end I watched there or, like, I saw the whole break down to his day, and I was like, Wow, get it Mark. Yeah. He gets out of bed at 7:00 PM. <laugh> Must be nice, yeah. He's… I've… I have worked on… on projects with him and he is a hustler. You know what? I've heard that from multiple that have worked with him. I have not been able to personally work with him at all. But Mark, if you're listening, I would love to. Um… <laugh> And I've heard the same thing, but he is a true hustler when he's on set and stuff like that, um, that he's the real deal. He gets to know people's names, too. Like, low end crew people, like PA's and stuff. And so… What do you mean, like you? It's you. <laugh> Aha, excuse me. <laugh> Excuse me. I said what I said. I was… I was the director's assistant. He… He has to know me. He has to know me, that was not a choice. But no, he's, uh, he… he's a real genuine dude. But, so… So you're waking up, like, at the ass crack of dawn. I am. And fitting it in. I am. You're not making excuses. I'm not. I'm not. And especially because I know how I am and how the day gets after me. So if I don't do it in the morning, mmmm… It's not going to get done. Not… It's not happening. It's going to be that LA thing where you just wear like yoga clothes all day. Totally. And you're like, I don't know, I might work out later. Maybe. Maybe. Probably not, but… A surprise work out. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. After… After these three donuts, surprise work out. <laugh> <laugh> <laugh> Like… Like you needed one more project, you just start a podcast here on PodcastOne. No, I'm part of your guys's family. What up. You guys need to come on my show for sure. Yes. We would love to do it. I'd be happy to. Tell everybody about your show. Yeah. Okay, so the Natalie Marie show, I'm so excited to be a part of the podcast, One Family. Yeah, it's dope. And basically, it's… it's me and Jonathan. Jonathan's my cohost, so it's really because I get to kind of bash up on him on air, which he loves. Yeah. It's the best. It's the best day. Yeah. Yeah. And… You can't light up your partner what's the point of having one? That's what I say. You know, I've said, uh… I'm just really like, I love you. Because you have a lot of brothers. Yeah, exactly. And so sometimes Josh and he's like, Okay, I'm not one of your brothers, like, take it… take it… Quit roasting me, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Take it down a notch. And I was like, That's fair, I love you. I love you. I love you. <inaudible> more than one boyfriend to stop calling them Dude. Oh. <laugh> <laugh> <laugh> That's amazing. I feel you. <laugh> Yeah, no. Totally. It's just in me. My… My girlfriend literally said that a few nights ago. She's like, Uh, could you not call me dude? <laugh> <laugh> She's from Estonia, <crosstalk>. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. She's not American. But as those you guys anybody talking about what you're doing? Basically, we have just our, uh, wide variety of guests on, you know. From anywhere of, like, their expertise in their field, you know. So that's why I really… I love podcasts. I love that you're able to have open conversation, open dialogue with multiple different people from different walks of life from… I'd have beauty gurus, like, big YouTube stars, um Lilly Singh's coming on the show. She's, like, super massive and just, like, her domination of everything is just insane. And so to give, like, their experience, strength, and hope, whether it's, you know, what they… because you know Lilly, of course. It's not that she just poofed over night, she just became this amazing icon. It's like, you know, she put in a lot of work and, you know, went through a lot of trials and tribulations and it's kind of, like, getting that out on the podcast and really, like, sharing people's stories. So that… It gives a glimmer of hope, you know. And we… we talk shit. We start insulting, of course, but then there's always, you know, some sweetness into the podcast as well to show some glimmering light and hope to people that, you know, are either thinking that they can't achieve something because the majority of the people that we have on at one time in their life they thought that everything that they have achieved was damn near impossible. Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And it's, like, not the case, because, I mean look at… look at some of them now, you know. Yeah, and I… I feel like it's sort of refreshing to hear from people who have put in the work. Yeah. Because, like, knowing where you come, knowing where you come from, like, you're not… you were born into a situation where it's like you're gonna find success no matter what. No, right. Right. Right. But those… those people… Those people who fall upward drive me fucking crazy, but when you have guests where you're like, This girl has been busting her ass and nobody should she could including her. You don't really have to scratch the surface too much to see the difference between those people that fall upward because they're not good at what they do. Yeah. Like, and it's very clear. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but people… And they're not hungry. Right, and the people who have talent and, like, they are hungry, those are the motherfuckers who are, like, yeah, I'm in it for the long run. That's also- For sure. So that's… that… that's what you're, like, focusing on and your guys's conversation and then the roasting. And the roasting of course. You know, we got… Gotta have the drama in here a little bit. And what days does it come out? Every Wednesday. Every Wednesday then you guys go. So subscribe. Well, obviously, we'll have all this linked on all of our social, and we'll have all of your social tagged, too, so that people can find you if they- Oh, awesome. Yes. Somehow have been living under a rock. Everyone… Everyone follows you. And it's super easy to trust my name. Yeah. Natalie Eva Marie on all platforms. You have most of the internet following… Shit, I love you. Thank you for saying that. No. More… More people are welcome. Come on. Yeah, yeah, you're not closing the door. Exactly. You should just go private. <laugh> Closed, motherfucker! Brutal. That's brutal. Well, thank you so for being on. It was a pleasure. Oh my god, no. Thank you guys so much. I need to have you guys on my show for sure. You guys are fantastic, and thank you so much. Thank you. Looking for a way to de-stress during the holidays? Got a long boring car trip ahead of you? Guys, listen to an audio book. Penguin Random House audio produces audio books that range from self-help and inspiring listens to classic novels to the latest best sellers. Listen to Brene Brown's newest book, Dare to Lead, and learn how to put your ideas into practice so you can step and lead. I got Michael Pollen's new book, How to change your mind. It's dope because I… We have the foster dog and I walk him multiple times a day. mm-hmm <affirmative> That's all… I'm just listening to Michael Pollen's new book. It's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. I really like audio books because you get really sucked in and really invested and if you're somebody who 'mutes a lot like we do here in Las Angeles, it's great to have something that you can pick up and put down for hours and always have this through narrative. I mean, Pollen's is a little bit more about, like, psychedelic experiences, so it's just kind of up my alley. But, I mean, there's also you got Jen Sincero's new book, You are a bad ass everyday, that's going to teach you how to keep your motivation strong and your vibe high. Visit penguinrandomhouseaudio.com/self care for more listening suggestions to keep your sanity during the holiday season. One more time that's penguinrandomhouseaudio.com/self care. And look out for yourself, guys. Alright, that's our show this week. We'd like to take a moment to thank our sponsors who bring our podcast to you free every week especially MedMen, Fossil Watches, Q Drinks, Penguin Random House, and True Car. Please and go support them because they support us. Also, pretty good products. Got to say. We're starting… We're starting to get sponsors of things I, like, use, so… Yeah, no, i-it's nice when it's like, Oh, yeah, <inaudible>. Totally give them my money, yeah. Come on, let's do this, guys. For more information on our sponsors, you can check out the podcast description to this episode for more details. We'd also like to thank <unk:Frankfurt_Rosa> for our jaunty theme music. DeShaun's for producing the show making us sound ever so lovely. And the rest of the PodcastOne family, and also, lastly, but never leastly… The audience. The audience. Special shout out to Heather in the booth. What up, heather. What up. And, uh, I think you did everyone who likes and subscribes and makes fun of us online. We appreciate you. A-And thanks for the, uh, the Barilla promo, and the LA animal rescue. Oh, yeah, and for all the money that you guys helped us raise. That's awesome. Yeah. You… That's… Guys, you raised over $15,000.00 for nonprofits for one month. That's amazing. So, uh, go pat yourself on the back. Uh, get that… Go make… Go make yourself a real thick soup. <laugh> Have a good one, guys. See y'all next week. Thanks for listening to Forked Up, a Thug Kitchen podcast. Check out new episodes every Thursday exclusively at podcastone.com, the new PodcastOne app, or subscribe on Apple podcasts. Here's some useful car tips you guys might not be aware of. Hit me, because I… I would like to think I'm pretty car savvy, so… So hit me with something I haven't heard. Um, if you have a crack in one of your tail lights, and you get red duct tape and cut it so that it's the same shape as a tail light… You did do this. Almost no one will notice. You did this, rolled around for years not getting pulled over. I… I kept the red roll of duct tape in my trunk to fix it on the go. Because it would rain and your duct tape would be falling off. Or get too hot and the glue would get loose. Yeah. I don't know how you didn't get pulled. Your car… <laugh> Also, if you're driving a gray car, usually it's a beautiful match for just standard issue duct tape as well for, you know, all your bumper issues. Oh god… Yeah. If your gray car has body issues, duct tape is a great bondo. Well… Are you guys ready for one more great car tip you might know of? True Car also helps people used cars. That's right. True Car isn't just for buying new cars with their certified dealer network and nation wide inventory of nearly one million used cars, you'll enjoy real pricing on actual inventory in a simpler buying experience whether you're buying new or used. And with True Car, users can see what others paid so you know exactly if you're getting a good deal or not before you even step on the lot to try and start buying, and they're more likely to enjoy a faster buying experience, because you're connecting with True Car certified dealers. So when you're ready to buy a new or used car, check out True Car and enjoy a more confident car buying experience. Some features not available in all states. Hi, it's Jamie, Progressive's number one number two employee. Leave a message at the- Hey, Jamie. It's me, Jamie. I just had a new idea for our song about the Name Your Price tool. So when it's like, Tell us what you want to pay-hey-hey-hey, and the trombone goes, BWABWABWA, and you say, We'll help you find carpet options to fit your budget. Then we just all do finger snaps while the choir goes, Savings coming at ya! Savings coming at ya! Savings coming at ya! Yes? No? Maybe? Anyway, see you practice at night. I got new lyrics for the rap break. Progress casualty insurance company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Fighting the wildfires. I'm Ed Donahue with an AP news minute. Weather conditions are improving for crews battling wildfires in California. We're on the back side of the significant winds as they die down. We are still, though, in very dry critical fire weather conditions, uh, for the next several days throughout California. The massive wildfire in Northern California has left 56 people dead. Now the democrats will have the majority in the house, Nancy Pelosi wants her old job back. I intend to win the speakership with democratic votes. A group of 17 democrats lead by Seth Multon from Massachusetts have pledged to vote against Pelosi's return as the first female speaker of the house. A prosecutor in New Jersey says a feel good story of a homeless man using his last $20.00 to help a stranded woman buy gas was actually a complete lie manufactured to get complete strangers to donate more than $400,000.00 to help the down and out good Samaritan. Criminal charges have been filed in New Jersey against the couple who told this story to newspapers and TV stations. I'm Ed Donahue. 

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+Listener support. WNYC Studios. Thank you, I have to go <crosstalk>- Okay, that's for you. That's beautiful. Hey, <inaudible>, how are you? Oh, it's so nice to see you. <crosstalk>, I've never gotten a Mr Dubner. I like it. I feel like I've just stepped into the Great Hall of Downton Abbey. <laugh> All right. Roger Bennett, why don't you to say your name first? My name is Roger Bennet. And, what do you do for a living, sir? Ah, my wife asked me the same question. I sit in front of a television watch, a lot of football and shout at that television, thinking it will impact events as they're unfurling thousands of miles for me. And you know what Steven, they do. How often do you shower, I'm just curious, in that Paradigm? It depends. I follow a medieval, uh, regimen of washing, where around the November I saw myself into London the way which I kept myself out of in spring, why are we, why are you asking? Okay, enough of that. As you can hear, I'm with another podcaster. Stephen Dubner, the host of Freakonomics radio. Someone I actually know quite well, despite the fact in this podcast, I proceed to get his last name wrong many, many times. Dubner, Dubner, you say Potato, I say potato. You know him as a man who enjoys talking about stagflation. I've come to know it is a huge soccer fan, a passion which occasionally bubbles over when he takes his footy for two podcasts with his son, a huge Barcelona Fan. <crosstalk> ball was intended for Messi? No. Really? I don't. Messi looked surprised- It was header height on Messi, and you don't cross it in for Messi ahead of the defender, I don't think. Ah, aha. Okay. So, far in American Fiasco, we've been obsessively documenting the US men's national soccer teams bumpy road to the 1998 World Cup, but today we're going to talk about the 2018 World Cup. It's about to kick off in Russia, that road state, which means that Geo political stakes, they couldn't be higher. Dark news, though. The US isn't even going to be there this time. They failed to qualify in quite spectacular and tragic fashion. American Fiasco indeed, but there's still plenty of dramatic storylines and a soap opera's worth of characters to talk about. Messi, Ronaldo, my favorite, the Amazingly Ignatius squad from tiny Iceland. You're going to hear part of that conversation on a special World Cup episode of Freakonomics Radio, but we wanted to let you in on some of the action as well, so let's do it. This is American Fiasco. American Fiasco is supported by Wix.com. With Wix, you can create your own professional website right from your phone in five minutes or less. Now, that's winning. Create your website today. Go to Wix, W-I-X.com/americanfiasco to get 10% off when you're ready to go premium. I'm Roger Bennett. You're listening to the acid jazz hour on Freakonomics Radio. Very nice. Hello, late night listeners. Very nice. It's Rog. No, describe for me your anticipation for the upcoming World Cup, considering that as we now know, the US did not qualify. A darkness. And, I understand there, there might be personal, uh, dimensions and professional dimensions because you're still working it, so. Yeah. Yeah. Personally, devastated that the US are not in it. I know so many of the players, I know exactly what drives them. Uh, I know what a World Cup means to a player in terms of their own grind to the elite level, and, and to have them lose that opportunity, have that just fall away from them. Devastating for those, devastating for the American football fan base who are absolutely dedicated to that team. Um, the big takeaway is we should stop playing two countries at the same time. Never again should we play Trinidad and Tobago, one at the time. Let's take baby steps. Um, having said that, you know, we're going on a national tour during the World Cup. We're going across the country, this great country. We're going to cross America. A huge road trip- We mean, meaning Men in Blazers, not the US men's national team. Yeah, may, maybe some of them may come along. We actually have some of the younger future stars going to come on stage with us and talk about the future as part of the shows, but you know, I'm going to explore the authentic beautiful football culture city to city, Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, LA, St Louis, and then up and down the east coast. Um, and so I will say as an Englishman, there were three times in my life England did not make the World Cup. Once when I was too young to really be sentience, but one, 94 they didn't make the American World Cup, 78 they didn't make it to Argentina and I will say in my emotional memory, they are my two favorite World Cup's, because I was able to watch the Tele Novella kind of storylines and spooling in front of my eyes without any sort of damacles of, God, the English team are stressed, they're going to, they're going to self sabotage. They're gonna, they're gonna raise my hopes, they're going to crush my hopes. They're gonna go out in the most heart wrenching way. It didn't have any of that. I could just- So, do you have that lack of stress this year, then? Without the Americans? <crosstalk>, and, and I think, you know, this is what's fascinating. I think Americans are going to realize they just love the World Cup for its own sake. I think this is going to be the World Cup when Americans look at who is there, Ronaldo- Yeah. Messi, the heroic Icelandic story, that kind of pro bowl roster of the Belgian team, uh, you know, spoiler alert, one of the three winners, Brazil, Spain or Germany, one of these three is going to win it. You got the African challenge, you got the intricacies of some of the incredibly organized passionate teams coming from Asia, South Korea. Wow. Uh, and I think America loves a circus. They love nothing more than an excuse to cut work on mass for an entire month and daytime drink, what an alluring possibility for any American. You know, if you are in a bar at 7:00 A.M in the morning with a Budweiser Society, frowns on that, right? Steven, do they? Yes. You would not be pleased to be- Would not. Yeah, but if you were in that same bar with that same Budweiser and on the television, Spain are playing Portugal in the opening group game of the World Cup, what are you? You're a football fan. You're a football fan, and this is gonna be a big World Cup even without the American participation. So, what you're describing, um, which I'd love to think will come to pass, is an embrace of the World Cup despite the lack of an American team for American fans, and it sounds like to the average, let's say sports fan, it sounds a lot like the way Americans follow, uh, the NCAA basketball <inaudible>, right? Exactly. Even if I went to a college that doesn't have a team or if my team is no good or if my team loses early- Where did he go to college? I went to Appalachian State University, which had a very fine soccer team, I have to tell you, top 10 nationally, division one, even though they were in division in other sports. What's their nickname? The mountaineers. Come on. My school had a very strange set of circumstances by which a man named Hank Steinbrecher, do you know Hank? Do you know hank? Do I know Hank? I love Hank Steinbrecher. You don't know Hank Steinbrecher. Oh, do you? Hank, Hank Steinbrecher is it only the star of American Fiasco, Hank Steinbrecher is one of the single great human beings, I adore Hank Steinbrecher. So Hank, I can't believe you know him so well and yet didn't know that his most impressive feat on his resume was uh, assembling and coaching a team at a place called Appalachian State University in Boone, North Carolina that was ranked number seven nationally and I was a 16 year old, bot much of a big soccer fan. Yep. Who was transfixed by this team of, um, uh, Nigerians and Ghanaian's, and <crosstalk>- Just imagine, a little, a little young Stephan Dubner with a mullet walking onto the field and being like, Hey guys, I got some pace. I got some game, my bad guys, and they'd just totally <crosstalk>. I didn't actually get on, I didn't have, I didn't even go, I did tutor a couple of the soccer players though. Ah. That's your contribution. But I think Hank is a <inaudible>, as well. Hank Steinbrecher, for those of you do not know was the general secretary of US soccer, essentially the gentleman that was executing every major decision in the 90's. He dedicated himself to the growth of the game. He oversaw it, in his body, a heart beats that is so American, it makes things like hunting, democracy, even barbecued ribs seem un-American compared to Hank Steinbrecher inners, and one of the joys of making American Fiasco was the time I spent with Hank listening to him talk about decision after decision with this 1998 team, which I was fascinated by because squads are fragile ecosystems. They really are, they're essentially workplace cultures. What you need is a collective focus, you have a team like Iceland from the smallest country to ever qualify for the World Cup. 335 000 people. Corpus Christi, Texas, I believe is bigger. They have hardwired their country to produce phenomenal, collective football players. They invested heavily in training facilities. They invested heavily, intentionally in elite coaching. They have an, a ridiculous number of coaches. I know the, uh, the manager of the national team at least until recently was also a part time dentist, is that <crosstalk>- He was <inaudible>, a very good friend of mine- Is that right, yeah? He was a part time dentist on a tiny island that has, I think 800 000 puffins for every one person that it has. Have you ever had them do any, uh, work on you? Um, you know, I- Were you that close a friend? Uh, you know, I've watched him do root canal and I asked him, why do you keep, as an international manager, keep doing part time dentistry, which he did until a year ago? And, he just looked at me like as a madman, he said, Other managers blow off steam by hunting. Other guys gamble, he said, I do root canals, like I was a moron. He's given it up now because he is focusing on this work. Amazing story. Twelve years ago he was coaching an under 12 boys team in two weeks as we, uh, record here, he's going to walk out with the world watching with this Icelandic team against Argentina and Lionel Messi, it's an incredible career curve, but Iceland have focused on, uh, investing heavily in coaching. They've built this elite cadre of players who are not just technically phenomenal, I've been in massive soccer halls where they had 800 five year olds, with 100 elite coaches. Just, it was like China, Mou, Ping Pong, kind of like just these unbelievable factories of joy of young kids learning to love the game, and then they, they've developed this unbelievable kind of Viking mentality is the other thing. These kids, these guys, when you interview them, they'd, say there is Viking blood that flows through my veins. They really believe, I thought they were joking. I was like, really? Yeah. That's funny. No, no, I really mean it. The Icelandic player, before they play big teams, you ask them do they think they're going to win, and they look at you and they say, of course we, we are Iceland. I said, even though like five years ago you were getting smashed by these teams. They said, even five years ago, we thought we were going to win. We just didn't. American Fiasco is supported by Wix.com. With Wix, you can create your own professional website exactly they way you want, which means you can launch your own online store, blog, or portfolio, wherever you are. Even while listening to this podcast. Here's how it works, go to wix.com, decide what you need a site for, pic your style, add your images, and your website is ready, in five minutes or less. Make sure you're story doesn't go untold, create your website today. Go to Wix, W-I-X.com/americanfiasco to get 10% off when you're ready to go premium. Hi, I'm John Green and I'm the host of the Anthropocene Reviewed, a new podcast from WNYC studios in which I reviewed different facets of the human centered planet. Everything from the Taco Bell breakfast menu, to cave paintings to the practice of Googling strangers. I believe that by paying really close attention to almost anything, we can learn about the universe and our place in it. Plus, it gave me an excuse to try out the Taco Bell breakfast menu, so that was something. You can subscribe to the Anthropocene Reviewed wherever you get your podcasts Thanks. So, your podcast, American Fiasco covers in 1998 US men's national team- Yes. Which, uh, which did very poorly- Correct. But you've had the good fortune to turn it into a, an audio tragedy, which is, you know, so you had good material, but then just a year later, months later, the 1999 women's World Cup- Ah, yup. The US women's team take it from there. I mean, absolutely- Saved the day. Saved the day. Such a high level. So, much enthusiasm and all the things that it sounds like you were hoping for and expecting from- Correct. Yeah. So, first of all, describe the women's team and why they were and continue to be so, so, so good. And, why a country that produces such a dominant women's team produces such a middling to crap men's team. Title nine is everything. There's no other country has title nine, so what you had was women athletes who were exposed to better facilities, better infrastructure, better coaching that anywhere else in the world by a multiple of 10, and so 1998, it felt personally having watched it, it felt like a darkness. You know, I wanted, I love America. I love football. There's nothing I love more than the game I love growing in the, in the country I love, that is a lot of love. 1994, I felt the plate tectonic shifting under the sport. 1998, it was a darkness, it felt apocalyptic, and when you interviewed the players from 1998, they felt they had destroyed not only their own careers, but also the professional futures for football players in this country. Then along came the women. 1999, thanks to title nine, they just were superior in every way. They would destroy all opponents physically, so much more gifted. They would run harder, they would tackle harder. They just destroyed all comers. Title nine allowed the women to develop a healthy competitive advantage. The rest of the world has caught up and then some, female football has grown unbelievably in Europe and a wonderful sophisticated, when I grew up, it was kind of scapegoated and women did not play sports. Now they do, but in 1999, the women bailed the men out gave this country joy, gave this country have reason to love soccer again, and please God, 2019, history will repeat itself. There is a lawsuit in which, uh, members of the US women's national team, um, are alleging that they've been paid very unfairly compared to the men, especially considering not only their actual accomplishments which are, which dwarf the men, at least in recent history, but in terms- They win things. They win things, but also their revenues are, um, are pretty good. So do you think it in any way affected the cohesion of the men's, either national team or the national program? Because the whole program has, um, I wouldn't say melted down, but there's been a big change in administration now. So, I'm just curious whether that was any kind of explanation for why the- No, no. There were many reasons for the 2018 failure- That's not one of them. <crosstalk>, coaching, the mental focus of the men in crunch time, who knew exactly what they had to do, and failed so spectacularly. They needed to draw against the worst team on the final day, and they went 2-0 down early, and they got to goal back. It was 2-1, they have plenty of time, plenty of time to get a second goal against a very poor team. They were resigned to losing, watching them that their legs weighed, um, you know, tons, they seem to be bogged down. We did a live show right afterwards, um, taking the title of Hillary Clinton's book, What happened? um, and try to understand with- You were depressed, you were very depressed, weren't you? I was incredibly, incredibly uh, sad for the players, I was crushed for the fans who live travel and, and dream about this team, their success, but also a future in America where, where soccer, which is massive for 12 to 27 year old demographic, is across the board, a major league sport and a true major league sense. Um, I felt crushed for them. The World Cup is the greatest driver for the growth of the game. It's like a huge wave that hits the soccer's beech leaves more and more funds behind. Most of all I felt deeply sad because the World Cup's still going to be big. It's still going to be big, Stephen, but those scenes we saw at the last World Cup where Dallas Cowboys stadium was full of US fans cheering on the team, you know, there's Grand Park Chicago, 60 000 cheering sharing to watch John Anthony Brooks score in the last second against the Ghanaian's, Tim Howard, saving ever, we're gonna, we're not going to have, I was mostly sad to be candid because some of the happiest collective memories in my life, which you may say sad about my life, but they're woven from the history, moments I've shared with my family, uh, and, and, and thousands of fans across the world. They are, they, they are the most vivid moments in my biography. We're going to be deprived, uh, this World Cup of having any collective American memories, and it's fairly devastating. Let me ask you this, um, Lionel Messi, you called him the greatest footballer alive, or would you say ever? He, he's the single greatest footballer I have ever seen. Okay. You've ever seen it, and would that include Pele, for instance? Yeah. Ever seen, meaning on tape, anything? Yep. Going back. Okay. Yeah, the, yeah, I, I mean, the football, football nowadays is a completely different beast. Okay. So, let's, let me ask you this for those, uh, again, who may end up watching some Argentina not know too much, not care too much. He is physically a remarkably unassuming human. Yeah. He looks like, uh, it looks like he just wanted out of your local Supercuts. <laugh>. Yeah, and yeah. And, and to understand them, you have to know about his nemesis. Ronaldo. Ronaldo, who's the opposite in every way. And, so Ronaldo, Portugal captain, the two of them, it's like Lebron and Steph Curry, you know, which is the great, the greatest player. Both of them have completely different attributes, different physical styles of play. Ronaldo is like a bottle of Drecco on the wall, turned into a person. I, I actually, in one tournament I was given, I checked into a hotel and was given his bedroom after he left it. And, honestly I was there for four days and I couldn't get the, the, the Cologne out of my clothing for the next three weeks just by <crosstalk>- Wow, did you, did you love it, though? Did I love it? It's not very me, it's really not very me, heavy on the Cologne. Not very Rog, but he is physically beautiful. Seems to be allergic to wearing shirts after gold scoring. I often thing he doesn't enjoy scoring goals on their own sake, they're just stages for him to rip his shirt off- An opportunity for him to take off- Show the world his nipples, and he's got, he's not got six pack, he's got an eight pack, Ronaldo, it's truly remarkable thing. He is, he is a sculpture of a man. Dominant. Beautiful. Um, I, I mean potent is the word and Lionel Messi- And a good goal scorer, but Lionel Messi you're saying is a better player because not only is he often outscore Ronaldo, but what else does messy do? Messi is the video store clerk. Blockbusters. You know, where's the Tarantino films? He doesn't even look up from his, from his village voice, he just says second ago on the <inaudible>, bro. He looks like an every man, but when he takes to the field, a combination of his vision, his ability to accelerate an incredible pace into crevices of space that really, no one else sees that space, leaving behind only kind of smoking cleats were defenders once were, just vaporizes opponents. His ability to compute angle, um, wind speed trajectory. I mean, incredible physic, I mean, say he has a beautiful mind in there, the way he finishes goals, rarely smashing the ball home. It's always with just enough effort, just enough power, only what it needs under great pressure, delivering over and over and over again. And, what's fascinating about him, he left Argentina when he was, you know, around bar mitzvah age- For, for health treatment, right? Yeah, the, um, he was a tiny kid, he's still a tiny bloke, but Barcelona, we're willing to give him the steroid treatment that they needed. Probably the best investment ever in sports history, but in an Argentinian jersey, he has never delivered victory. The last three big tournaments he's played, he's got his team to the phone, but you know, it's like Lebron. It's like watching Lebron. It's like an unbelievable player, and the rest of the cast, they underperform around them and they just wait for him to do magic. And he's gotten to the final final, the final of the last World Cup, the final last two copers, they both, all three of them have ended both in defeat and with him in tears. It's like, this is what it sounds like when doves cry, you, you really understand that lyric when you watch little Messi crying at the end of the game, and that pressure that he plays under in an Argentina jersey is remarkable. It's one of the storylines of this World Cup. So, this World Cup in Russia, which will be a geopolitical, a Tele Nueva in its own, uh, the next one in Qatar, in the winter, because it's too hot, which is, uh- <crosstalk>. Is related to all kinds of strange things, but here's what I really want to know- Yeah, I know where you're going. The 2026 World Cup will be played in- You know, I don't think America are going to get into World Cup, you do know that? Really? Yeah, bad news. It's not gonna be Morocco, is that? Well the on June the 13th, the day before the World Cup- Yeah, yeah. Kicks off in a elaborate ceremony, they will reveal in Russia who is going to get the 2026 World Cup, one slight problem. The person presiding over the ceremony of that announcement is the Vladimir Putin. Oh. You don't think the US will get it? I imagine Putin will look in the envelope and if it does say the US, Mexico and Canada, he will smile at the cameras and just say, and the winner is, oh, <unk:Churchna> and Crimea. So, uh, the, the honest truth is, America's a complicated reality for a lot of nations to vote for. So Roger, if Russia were to win the World Cup, what would you say are the odds that uh, someone intervened with a briefcase of cash, a loaded weapon, etc, etc? Uh, Russia of possibly going to be the worst host since Seth Macfarlane at the Oscars in 2013. They are a terrible football team. They are a terrible football team. I mean, just- They wouldn't have qualified, I assume if they weren't hosting? Not even close, so they got gifted a, as America in 1994, incredible pressure. You have to get out of the group stages host to show that you actually do belong, Russia or a hapless pathetic soccer team. I'm saying that as a, a guy born in England, I know hapless, pathetic soccer team. I think America a more likely to win the 2018 World Cup than Russia are, and I will say, and I've said this before, Stephen, if Russia could influence the 2016 us election, I still believe that we have the brain power, we have to get on it, Zuckerberg. I know you're listening to this, you love stagflation conversations on Freakonomics. I still believe that America has the creative brainpower to work out how even though we're not in it, we can still win the 2018 World Cup in Russia. Amen. Amen. Thanks to you, Stephen Dubner for having me on. If you're not listening to Freakonomics radio, get on it now. Freakonomics.com or just subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, but this just in, there was a statistic in this conversation I need to correct. I slightly exaggerated the number of puffins are residents <inaudible> Island. I said there are 800 000 for every human being. The American Fiasco team went to Iceland and counted them by hand and it's more like a thousand puffins to every human being, but come one. Once a person's got more than three puffins, who's counting? American Fiasco is a production of WNYC studios. Our team includes Joel Myer, Emily Botein, Paula Schuman, Derek John, Starley Kien, Keegan Zemma, Ernie Introdad, Eliza Lambourne, Jamison York, Daniel Gemett, Matt Boynton, Jonathan Williamson, Brad Feldman, Bee Aldridge, Jeremy Bloom, Isaac Jones, and Sarah Sandbo. Joe Plourde is our technical director. Hannis Brown composed our original music. Our theme music is by Big Red Machine. The collaboration between Aaron <inaudible>, national and Justin Vernon of Bonnivale. Special thanks to Matt Frasica, and Alison Hockenberry at Freakonomics radio. For more about this story, including a timeline and more, go to fiascopodcast.com. American Fiasco is supported by Wix.com. With Wix, you can create your own professional website exactly the way you want, which means you can launch your own online store, blog, or portfolio wherever you are, even while listening to this podcast. Here's how it works. Go to wix.com. Decide what you need a site for. Pick your style and your images and your website is ready, in five minutes or less. Make sure your story doesn't go untold. Create your website today. Go to Wix, W-I-X.com/americanfiasco to get 10% off when you're ready to go premium. 

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+Support for today's episode is brought to by ReaHealth.com. Right now my listeners can get $25 off their first month when you visit ReaHealth.com/elevator and use the coupon code elevator. Recovery Elevator episode 195. But I think there is like two parts of that battle. It's, it's the battle with the outside world that kind of talks to you a little bit, it's the battle inside your own head that kind of tells you, Oh yeah, I've, I've done this. I've, I've had a hard day at work. Like I, I'm totally okay to, to drink. Welcome to the Recovery Elevator podcast. My name is Paul Churchill. Thank you so much for joining us. On today's podcast, we've got Corey. He's 25 years old. He's from Boston, Massachusetts, and he's been sober for five days. Guys, in one week, on November 19th, registration for the Recovery Elevator Nashville Social is going to be open. There are a limited number of spots, so don't wait to register. We did this in Dallas the previous year and had an absolute blast. If you're gonna join us in Nashville, and again, those dates are February 22nd, 23rd, 24th. That's a Friday, Saturday, Sunday. You've got two options. You can attend the entire weekend of festivities or you can just meet with us on Saturday night. There's gonna be a seminar. We're gonna change our relationship with alcohol, and we're also going to break off and do some smaller workshop events like that. It's gonna be a blast. I hope to meet you there. And guys, I'm excited about today's sponsor, Ria Health. This is probably the most applicable sponsor we've had on the podcast, and Ria Health is the modern alternative at-home approach that helps people drink less alcohol. The program gives people a choice in their recovery, because Ria helps its member to reduce and moderate alcohol consumption as well as go completely abstinent if that's your goal. In an analysis of Ria's members, it showed that on average, people reduce their drinking by 50% within the first 30 days of the program. How? Because Ria's program is evidence based. They combine FDA approved medications that are scientifically proven to reduce cravings for alcohol, in addition to one-on-one support to change your behaviors and relationship to alcohol. Ria also offers online peer meeting groups and app based drink tracking tools to measure progress towards your goals. Ria's program is month to month, so there's no commitment. Most Ria member stay with the program for about one year once they achieve their goals. And right now my listeners can get $25 off their first month when you visit RiaHealth.com/elevator. That's R-I-A-health.com/elevator and be sure to use the coupon code elevator. In episode 154, I talk a little bit about similar treatment methods, and if you do decide to use RiaHealth.com, shoot me an email and let me know what your experience is. Okay. Let's get started. I got the idea for this podcast episode from an article that was sent my way in the Irish Times. You can find a link to this article in the Recovery Elevator 195 show notes on the RecoveryElevator.com website or in your podcast player. And thank you, Mike, for always playing together is such a fantastic show notes. In the article it says: It's a quirk of a law that a bottle of alcohol free beer must list its ingredients, but there is no such requirement for a bottle containing actual alcohol. It makes no sense, says dr Peter Rice of NHS in Scotland. dr Rice, a consultant psychiatrist, and chairman of the Scottish Health Action on Alcohol Problems was a leader in the campaign there to introduce minimum unit pricing, a floor price below which a unit of alcohol cannot be sold. This is actually fantastic legislation. It's a great law. The measure has been brought in from May 1st to reduce harmful drinking caused by the strongest and cheapest alcohol, and last month, the Parliament in Wales pass similar legislation. Introducing the Floor Price Law took six years from the time the Scottish Parliament passed the legislation. Now, Scotland and the rest of the EU are watching the very slow passage of the Public Health Alcohol Bill. This is the country's attempt to deal with its drinking problem. The latest row is over labeling and the provisions to include health warnings on labels linking alcohol to cancer. Ireland will be the first EU state to have such labeling if it gets the green light from the European Commission, which is expected to make a decision next month. The legislation has taken almost three years to date since it was first introduced in December 2015. The Scottish legislation was delayed by a legal challenge from, guess who, the Scotch Whiskey Association. If passed, then a bottle of beer in Ireland would have a cancer warning that would cover one third of the bottle. At this moment, nothing has been passing into law, but this does spark an interesting dialogue, and I hope they can get this one right. Now let's circle the wagons and reread the first line again. It says: It's a quirk of a law that a bottle of alcohol free beer must list its ingredients, but there's no such requirement for bottle containing actual alcohol. Yeah, quirk of a law, I'd say so. I hope this changes in Ireland and the rest of the EU soon. The good news is that some countries already do place warnings on their labels. Let's see what the country Colombia has to say. In Colombia, a bottle of beer says: This product is harmful to the health of children and pregnant women and the excess of alcohol is harmful to your health. Bueno, Colombia. Nice job on pointing a finger at a smoking gun. Let's see what Colombia's neighbor Ecuador has to say: The excessive consumption of alcohol restricts your capacity to drive and operate machinery, may cause damage to your health and adversely affects your family. Whoa. Let me just summarize that last line for you. Alcohol can create a wake of destruction for you and everyone around you. Spot on, Ecuador. Nice job. Let's pop over to Scandinavia. This is what Sweden has to say: Alcohol can cause stroke and cancer. Alcohol is dependence producing. Alcohol can cause nerve and brain damage. To begin drinking at an early age increases the risk of having alcohol problems, and alcohol can injure your health. I'm going to go ahead and raise up my LaCroix and say Skal to you, Sweden. Nice job. Let's see what Korea has to say: Warning, excessive consumption of alcohol may cause liver cirrhosis or liver cancer, and is especially detrimental to the mental and physical health of minors. Just like the 2018 Winter Games, you nailed it, Korea. Nice job. Let's see what Russia has to say: Warning, do not drink and drive. You may spill your beverage. Well, I'm just kidding on this one. I actually did some extensive online searching and wasn't able to find the warning label for a bottle of beer in Russia, perhaps because they don't have one. Now it's pop over to the USA. This is what it says on our products containing alcohol: According to the Surgeon General warning, women should not drink alcoholic beverages during pregnancy because of risk of birth defects. Hang on here. Let me, uh, let me, uh, read a little further. What does it say about men? Nothing. Yeah. Nothing about men. Okay. This label is speaking to such a small percentage of people. In fact, this label is probably directed to less than 3% of the population and probably even less than that. Like the contents inside the bottle, this label is shit. Come on, USA. This podcast is geared more towards shredding the shame around alcohol addiction and getting sober groups together for awesome meetups in fun places like Machu Picchu in Nashville this upcoming February, but my goodness, this makes me mad. If I had a spare moment in 2019, I may get a petition going to get a more accurate description on a beer bottle, which relays the message that alcohol is dangerous and can cause a wide swath of destruction for everyone involved, not just for pregnant woman. Okay, calm down, Paul. So here's the good news. This shouldn't be the spinning newspaper you see in the movies with breaking news. If you're listening to this podcast, you're probably already aware that alcohol can be volatile and destructive. You don't need the warning label. You already know it. So, do these labels work? According to a 2011 New York Times article, countries that placed hideous photos and warnings on packs of cigarettes saw an average of five percent decline of tobacco use over the course of a year. That's saving a major amount of lives. Why does this work? The same reason Instagram works, a picture tells a thousand words. What I propose, just like the packs of cigarettes, place a picture, a clear image of where the drug alcohol can lead you, maybe even put a picture of someone trying to ride a bike into a swimming pool without water. theChive app could furnish an unlimited supply of pictures of people doing dumb shit while drunk. The first couple can be humorous, then some themes start to present themselves. Tobacco is the third leading cause of death, and here's the warnings on their packages: Smoking kills. Cigarette smoking is dangerous to your health. Cigarettes are addictive. Much better. Alcohol is the fifth cause of death in the US, and the labels make it sound like drinking alcohol is the same thing as a bad night's rest for a pregnant woman. Guys, I will do my best to keep you informed if I hear if the legislation passes in Ireland. I'm hoping it does. Before we hear from Corey, let's hear from my favorite resource on recovery, Cafe RE. The most important thing I've learned while doing the Recovery Elevator podcast is we can't do this alone. Believe me, I tried for over two years and it didn't work, so here's the good news: with Cafe RE, you get access to a confidential and unsearchable Facebook group, which is capped at 300 members to ensure intimacy. Then you get access to the Cafe RE forum outside of Facebook, which means you don't need a Facebook account to be part of Cafe RE. Both are private and only members can see who is in the groups and what is said. In the forum and Facebook group, you get instant accountability and genuine connection with others who also wish to lead a life without alcohol. In Cafe RE, you'll find that being sober is a tremendous opportunity and not a sacrifice. For just $19 a month, you too can join the conversation. You can be paired with an accountability partner, attend educational online webinars, online meetups, attend in-person meetups and retreats, participate in book club, movie club and more. Go to RecoveryElevator.com and use the promo code opportunity to waive the setup fee. I hope to see you there. Corey. How are you? I'm good, Paul. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, Corey, thanks for joining us. Corey, let's get right into this. How long have you been sober? Well, a good five solid days. So, what is it Thur- it's a Thursday, so counting back to last week, and the weekends are what really get me these days, so. Gotcha. And we'll talk about an upcoming camping trip to Maine. I don't know if it's a camping trip, but an upcoming trip to Maine this weekend. We'll talk about how we're gonna get through that sober. But five days, nice job. Congratulations, Corey. There was a time in my journey where I would've killed for five days. I was on day one, two, three, that hamster cycle for a long time. So, nice job. I bet that feels good. Yeah, it does. And… Yeah, it really is kind of a, a loop right now. I'm stuck in this cycle of one, two, three, four, five and, and trying to break, and, and, and getting into three, two or three weeks in a row would be really awesome, but I'm in the thick of it right now. Yeah, and, and human beings, we are good at playing the comparison game, especially on the social media feed. You scroll down and at the unconscious level, we see other people with different jobs, with houses, with spouses and these accomplishments in life, and I know I personally did it too with sobriety, and, and you mentioned before I hit record that, You know, I've only got five days. I don't really know if what I have to share will, will be well received. Corey, we're just gonna stuff all that in a bag, throw it off the train, because it doesn't matter. And if you're listening as well and you've only got one, two days, zero days, 20, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. So, Corey, I gotta say nice job for coming on the podcast with five glorious days, five awesome days. I'm excited for the interview. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, now give listeners a little background about yourself, maybe where you're from, what you do for a living, your age, do you have a family and what do you like to do for fun? Yeah, sure. So I grew up in Minnesota, and so that was, that was a good time. I grew up, you know, playing a bunch of sports and one of the big sports for me was, was playing hockey, but then I went to school in, and, uh, in Wisconsin, and after school I came out to Boston, and now I'm 25. I'm working a full time gig out here and just trying to figure out what the meaning of life is after college because I know that up until college, you know everything's kind of planned for you, you have A, B and C and then after you get out in the real world and then you're kind of just like, well now what, you know, and, and kind of life hits ya a little bit. And that's kinda what happened to me. Before we get into all that, what else I like to do is exercise, I've been doing that, I've been building a great regimen the last couple of years with, with exercising, a- almost every day and one of the things I love to do is, you know, go to concerts, listen to music. I love music. I play guitar. I found a piano outside of my apartment when I first moved in. It was sitting by the garbage can, and I said, Hmm, I wonder if this works, and I, you know, I brought it up and I started with the piano too, and I probably have, you know, a total of five guitars, so I love doing that. That's kind of my routine, and right now actually I have a, a trip to Colombia coming up, Colombia in South America, and I'm going there for 10 weeks and I have <laugh> never learned Spanish before. So I've been doing the Spanish thing for the last two months. I've been going a har- uh, for a half an hour to an hour every day trying to learn Spanish. So it's, it's exciting. And that actually is very fun because I'm going down there and just to, to learn a different language and actually, you know, put it to use right away is, is really motivating for me. So. Corey, <unk:Foreign_Language> in Colombia. <laugh>. Uh, Bogota. There you go. <crosstalk> Yeah, I've been there. I got it. I've been in Medellin, Bogota, and <unk:Bernakia>. That place is awesome. You're gonna love it. Yeah. Perfect. I'm staying in Chapinero. I don't know much about it, but I hope I get comfortable enough there that I can start spreading out… you know, and I'm going down there to work and on weekends I hope I can get out to some of the other places that you just mentioned and whatnot. So. Yeah, that sounds incredible. And I want to comment on what <laugh> you said about college, is like your life's plan all before you. I saw a meme and a couple of years ago that just cracked me up. There's a photo of kids throwing their graduation caps in the air and the caption was, Congratulations. You just finished the easiest part of your life. <laugh>. Yeah, I totally <laugh> saw that and I, t- I agree, and I think that people aren't prepared for it and, and… or at least I wasn't prepared for it. I, I shouldn't speak for anybody else, but I think it was a couple of years after I got in the real world that I was just like, what am I doing? Where am I going? What are my goals? Am I hitting my goals? And I looked at myself in the mirror and I said, Not really. So that kind of started, started a weird point in my life the la- that I've been gone through the last year or so. So. Yeah, well, give listeners a little background with your drinking. Describe your drinking habits. You mentioned in the email you sent to me that you were hit by the drug alcohol train your senior year of high school, and it… bring us up to speed to age 25, and did you ever attempt to quit, moderate, things like that, and, and give us some timeframes in your story, and take as much time as you need. I'm excited to hear it. Yeah, sure. So it was senior year and, and… when I started, you know, getting into that. Before that it was not as proud to just be totally away from all that stuff. And I wasn't… I don't know, you know, I kind of… some other influences that made me think that certain… or that, like, for example, marijuana was okay. That's always the one where people can say, Okay, this is not that bad for you, so why don't you try it? I'm not saying it's a gateway, but I'm not… and I'm not saying that's what led me to alcohol, but I, I'm saying that, all right, you know, that was kind of what started it for me. And then, you know, when high school came and, and uh, the senior year le- uh, and that year my friends, you know, were all, were all kind of experimenting with that. So I joined in them with that. And it was fairly fun, you know, it was great. It didn't like, you know, it felt great and, and it didn't turn into anything reckless, you know, I never got in trouble, and it never was exce- you know, uh, excessive for that year. And then, you know, going to college and all that stuff, I remember moving in and being really excited to be on my own and away from my parents, and, and you know when you have the welcome week at Wisconsin <laugh> we ha- you know the, we had a whole week for f- for freshmen. Not, you're not going to class, you're not studying, you just have a whole week there to, to meet people and party and, and we made it a, you know, we were proud of the fact that every day for, you know, one or two weeks we were getting, you know, hammered every night, and, which I thought was a great thing. And so that kind of just set the ball rolling, and you know, I can think back to nights I had in my freshman year when I should've been studying for physics, but instead I was, you know, playing Xbox in my dorm room alone and, and, and taking shots, and I was just like, nothing, nothing was wrong with the, with that image in my mind at that time. And it took a long time for me to get away from that type of, uh, behavior, or just to realize and, and escape that, uh, denial. But throughout college I think that was much the same. It was partying and even, for me, just sitting on, at my computer playing, playing a video game or, or watching YouTube and just, you know, have the case right next to you or the bottle right next to you. Sure. And, and that's, so that's how that kind of escalated, and I, and, and nothing, there were no bad signs, you know, I was still getting above a th- a 3.0 and, and doing well above that. And, you know, I was cramming all my tests in the way I did in high school and I was doing all, you know, ge- doing all that stuff. And I was okay with that, you know, I thought as long as I'm going through the motions in college at the end, you know, when I get out of college, you know, it'll, everything will be okay. I'll have done what I needed. So I kind of coasted through college. And then after college I got into the, I got a job, a boss and that was great, you know, I had all this money to, you know, help fuel my, my habit. But, uh, I started coasting through the real world as well, and I did that for a couple of years. And nothing really changed either, you know, people I think when they leave college they might change their habits in the way. But I think that's kind of silly to think that that would actually happen. So, it didn't happen for me, you know, right after college, I was still kind of doing the same things I did then, but just transferring it over and it… it was still just denial for the longest time. And when it got to the point, I think it was about two or three years after, when I was just like, where am I going, what am I doing, and, and just thinking about how much productivity I wasted. Um, it kind of just hit me in the face, and what really kind of started it was, was I had a, I had a kind of a, a really important relationship to me that kind of ended with, with, you know, the fact that I just wanted to go and, and drink all the time and party- Sure. throughout. And then, so when, when I lost them initially it was, it was totally fine, it was fine, it was whatever. I just kind of buried all that emotion down and I'm trying my best to kill it with, with booze, and then after about six months or so later, the feelings, you know, started creeping back up. And it was too late to do anything about it at that point because it had been so long and other people have moved on and I hadn't, because I- Well, hang on one sec. When you said after a couple of months had passed or six months passed, the feeling started to come back up. Can you elaborate a little bit more about that? Is it, is <crosstalk> it from the breakup you said, the breakup due to alcohol? Yeah, exactly. Okay. And so it was more of like we kind of, you know, when one… No, she, no, she went in one direction, I went in another direction with our lives, because I wanted to do with certain things like, you know, party more and whatnot. So the routine was I would feel great on Friday, and I'd have the whole weekend to, you know, spend with my, with my buddies and do all those things, and I'd feel great, and then Monday would come and I'd have a depressive, you know, Monday, depressive Tuesday, depressing Wednesday and then Thursday came around, I started to feel better, so it was like that. I'm like, Well, eventually, this is going to go away. You know, I just gotta keep going through these weeks and never really did, and it ended up getting worse for me, it ended up getting a lot worse, and I just, you know, I kn- knew something had to change. I, I wasn't comfortable with where I was at, and I needed to just, you know, I think there's part of me that I was like, Well, why, how di- why did that fail? It must've been your fault. And so I really wanted to make a change and I kind of just one morning scribbled down some notes in a book and I was like, I need to change A, B and C. and it was like basically I need to stop smoking pot, I needed to stop smoking tobacco, I needed to stopped drinking altogether, and like, these were the three things. And I was like this is something that I don't know how I'm gonna be able to do. So I, I have some somewhere. I, I didn't bring them up, but, but it… I, I don't have them with me, but I wrote down this whole plan of how I'm going to do it, and that was like an August, uh, like three, three years after I graduated college, just… that kind of lasted for a couple of days and I would still go back into my old routines, you know? And then it wasn't until like October… Oh, actually I, I should s- step back a little bit. In August I made the same, I made the decision to, to knock one of those three out. This was August of last year? Yeah, August of last year. So 2017. Okay. Yeah, exactly, about a year ago. And so I q- I quit buying, uh, marijuana altogether because it was something that I always kind of had on me and I always kind of did and it was part of the cocktail, so to speak. So I did that, and I got the ball rolling with that, because that was relatively easier to do. I, I s- you always hear about how it is less a- addictive, but then came kind of like the step, the part two of that whole grandmaster plan to get back to like, to being comfortable with who I was or, you know, being okay with who I was, which was quitting tobacco. And that happened in early November. So it was about two and a half, three months after stopping the, uh, marijuana was quitting tobacco. And that just went so f- well, because I was so, so focused on being in, changing who I was. And I was so, like kind of depressed with who I was and I needed to make a change. I needed to do something to get you right on the right track. So I did that, and I was so obsessive with it. I was like counting days one, two, three, four, all the way up to like 60, you know, in my planner. Every time I got into work I'd write here's one more day, and, and I'd obsess over it. And it went like really well for the first, like two or three weeks, I was able to, you know, to work and get all that. But then I remember going home for like Thanksgiving break, and the, even the day before I left home, I just, I, I felt the worst I had ever felt in my entire life. I think it was the se- yeah, it was the third week after quitting smoking, I hadn't, I was just so depressed, like to the point for a week, for a whole, for one week, I, was so depressed that, like, tha- for once in my life I could tell you that I drank alcohol to try to like go to bed, because I couldn't go to bed- mm-hmm <affirmative>. or keep my mind, like, calm without it. And so at that point I started realizing, wow, this is a, this is really messing with your brain, because if these chemicals can like shift your mood so much when you don't have 'em for three weeks, then I have been doing damage to my brain for so long that I really need to start right now to make it, uh, make it better, you know? Yeah. And, and, and listeners, this is why I wanted to bring Corey on the podcast, because he sent me an email, he didn't even request to do an interview. I read this and was like, I, I want to explore this more in depth on the podcast. You basically said, I had an epiphany after a bad breakup due to alcohol that I'd quit my vices, start by quitting cannabis, then tobacco, then alcohol. That was the idea, and I haven't bought pot in a year. Nice job, Corey. I haven't bought tobacco in almost 10 months. Super nice job, Corey. But I'm just having a hard time shaking alcohol because it's all around me and it seems acceptable. I actually don't recommend quitting cannabis, pot… or your cannabis, tobacco and alcohol all at once. Like that's almost like biting off a little bit more than anybody can chew. So I think the strategy was right there. But yeah, the alcohol is just the beast, and in my opinion alcohol is the gateway drug that leads to all, you know, all the other addictions, in, in this realm, shall I say. But yeah. Let's talk a little bit more about the alcohol and, and how you know, the last 10 months, what have you tried to do and how have you gotten, and, and, and bring us up to speed today? Yeah, so it kind of started with, in the new year, so this is January of 2018, that I kind of really got my bearing. My se- my, I had my, my eyes set on the, on the prize, uh, to just get sober from, you know, from alcohol, and it, and it was going really well, you know, and, and another big thing that I don't know if you're interested to talk about was I, this is about the same time I ended up being so desperate to, to save myself you know, it was that I ended up going for mental health and I, and I ended up getting myself a therapist too. And so- Good job. Yeah, that was a, that was a big deal for me and, and- Huge. I was really so scared to, to, to call right away, you know, and, and it took me a, a… a lot of time to just call a number, but I really had to, and I, and I did that, and I, and I got one and I have been seeing him for, for eight months, you know, up until this day. Back to January, I was doing really well, I had like 20 or so days, but then, you know, I had a trip planned with my buddies down in New Orleans, and we all know how, how crazy New Orleans is and that- <laugh>. kind of ruined it, that, that streak for me. Yeah. And I remember distinctively coming back from that trip, it was like three weeks I had been, uh, sober or so, and I came back from that and I was just like in the shower on the next morning. So I just felt so bad about myself because I just let myself down, that I just, I literally broke down right there in the shower and I was just like, Jesus, I'm in a really bad spot right now because I'm depressed and I can't… <laugh> No, I don't know where to go from here. I don't know what to do. So I've had to like, kind of, what's the term for it, ride it out since then, you know, I try to go, you know, get over all that, the pain and pretty much emo- all that emotional pain I had. But since then, I, I think I did, I've done really well at, at improving what I had done before, like my old habits of, of every night of the week, you know, having six plus beers every night, like that's no longer at, the case. But the struggle really is now how do we maintain a long streak? How do we still enjoy, um, our friendships with, without that, how can we find something that's not revolved around booze, because everybody wants to go to the bar, everybody wants to go to this that has alcohol and do this and that and that, and it's, it's really hard to escape it, and especially when you've built your life around it, it, it just makes it all that harder because you have nobody to turn to. I mean you can turn to your family, but when you're across the country from your family, you really can't do that either. And so that's pretty much it. And, and I think it was also, you know, over the summer, I kind of just relaxed a little bit on, on trying to, you know, give it up, but I still had it in the back of my mind that it was something I needed to do. And I just haven't been able to, to shake it. Corey, there's a lot to talk about right there. There, there's a lot. And, uh, I want to back it up before we get to the questions, like how do you do this? And we'll address that in a second. But, um, was there a rock bottom moment five days ago or was it like a sick and tired of being sick and tired? Like, here we go again, and then we got five days today. Yeah. So, the rock bottom moment that kind of shifted my mindset was really like kind of serious. It was back in that October, Ro- Rome, I think it was after, you know, I had stopped buying pot, so that was fine. But I was still, um, I went out to a party. It was October, it was Halloween and I went out to a Halloween party, and I, I was drinking with all these folks and, uh, people I didn't know, people I knew, and I still didn't feel good. And um, I just, um, instead of sti- you know, meeting those people and staying there, I just decided to leave, and I, I came back to my room. Wait, this was last October you said? This is last October. Yeah. And so you were drinking, and, you know, still drinking- Yeah. and using, but you still, but you didn't feel good. I didn't feel good. And you, and I'm sitting there and I'm, and I'm at my desk, like I usually am with a bunch of beer and, and I was smoking cigarettes probably, I'm in my room inside, which is technically not allowed, but I was just pretty much in it, you know, I was kind of, you know, and you talk about a lot and, same way for me, I was just trying to think of, of ways to just pretty much end it all and just like, how can I get outta here? And I remember like Googling, how do, you know, <laugh> how do you buy a gun? And I was like, what am I doing? What is wrong with me? And I like literally was fed up. I shut the, I shut the computer off and I was like, I went to bed and I was like, what is wrong? And that was kind of my rock bottom where I was just like, I need serious help, because I, I don't want to live right now and I just need to, I need to get out of that hole. And so that was the rock bottom moment. And it's been a struggle to get to where I am now. I feel a lot better today, but I know it's not perfect and I know I have more progress to go through, so. Corey, I have good news for you. Is from October to September 11 months, it might not seem like a lot of progress has taken place, but the way I see it, tremendous progress has happened. And I got more good news for you, is that at the unconscious level, your body has made the decision to move forward to Corey 2.0. That progression is happening right before our eyes, and you can go back to using, smoking tobacco, but it's gonna suck. It's not gonna be enjoyable, that unconscious mind is gonna make you feel terrible about drinking it, not me. I'm not shaming you at all. I'm gonna love you just the same amount if you drink tomorrow or, or if you keep going sober the rest of your life, but for all of us, we're almost afforded this luxury where alcohol, it stopped working. It just, it, we just, we can't go back to what it is, but you're kind of in this cognitive dissonance stage of your life where the conscious mind, the unconscious mind, they're battling each other. Part of it's like, no, we're done, you know, and then later in the day it's like, no, we're drinking again. That is a difficult time. And you mentioned earlier that, you know, you built a life around alcohol. Now, part of this is the post acute withdrawal symptoms, and this is all an opinion and hearsay, part of it is your body is coming back online, when you're going away from cannabis, from tobacco and, uh, and, and booze, but also I just read a book balled, called You Are the Placebo by Joe Dispenza. The instant we decided to make a different life, and this is moving away from alcohol, drugs, pot, anything, an addiction, our body will create negative emotions to pull us back. And that's part of it too. Like actually, when we decide I'm done drinking, we're gonna feel uncomfortable, because our body is entering the unknown, going to a new routine, and it's tough. It's tough. So you, you've made tremendous progress. That's the point I'm trying to make. Yeah. And, and thanks for that, because I, I agree. It's a- it's really hard. It's, it's, it's really amazing to see how, how hard it is to make behavioral changes that are so drastic like that, because it really affects your mood, and like I was unable to focus for so long after I had quit smoking, and, and it was just so tough and even with the drinking too, and it was like just… I was… I don't know <laugh> really just going, how the heck does this even happen, and where do, you know, how do you get over this? Because it just changes your mood so drastically, and you're just like, is it gonna, is it gonna be a. A, you know, a brighter, brighter future, future ahead or is it always gonna be like this? How long it's going to take, how many days off of work can I really take, how many unproductive days at work can I really have when I'm going through all this, this bad funk, because I need to be productive at work too in order to pay for everything and that just adds more financial stress to the situation and all that stuff. So, it really does add up and, and it's really hard, and like you're saying, I, I think the progress is tremendous. I gotta be positive, I gotta frame it the right way, and I gotta just keep chugging along. Yeah, absolutely. And you're asking the right questions, because there was a time in my journey, the questions I was asking was like, all right, if I go five days off, then can I go two days on? and repeat that cycle. You're asking the questions of how do I do this? How do I move forward in a life without these substances? You're asking the right question. And let's actually address part of that right now. You are going, before I hit record, you mentioned you're going with your roommates to Maine this weekend. You're leaving at 4:30 in the morning tomorrow morning, you're going to go whitewater rafting on, on Saturday. Like how are you gonna do this? Because it's so ingrained in our culture with drinking, I imagine this is not a sober getaway for the others. Am I right? <laugh>. Yeah. Totally right. Yeah. How did I guess? <laugh>. Yeah. So what's your plan this weekend? How are you gonna make it through sober? Well, you know, I think <laugh> I would, I would be, I'd be lying to you to tell you that I had a real concrete plan, and I know you're going to say that, you know, I'm planning, or failing to plan is planning to fail, so that probably is something I need to address. And, and um, I think there's gonna be, there's gonna be a lot of temptation at, at night, um, on, on Sa- Friday night and Saturday night for sure after the hard work is done. There's going to be a lot of, a lot of temptation to, to relax after, like, you know, you have a hard day's work, you deserve that to just kinda let yourself go a little bit. And, I mean as twisted as that is, that's the way the world kind of is. And in order to fight that, <laugh> I do feel kind of helpless, Paul, I really do. So. Corey, I've b- I've been there. I've been there, and I'm, I'm glad we're doing this right now, and we're going to lay, it's, a framework for listeners who are also in the situation. I guarantee it, people listening to this podcast episode, they're like, oh shit, I got a trip coming up in four days. I've got a bachelorette party. I've got a bachelor party. How is he going to do this? So here's what I would do. After we record this interview, I'd pull up your cell phone and I would send a text. I'd send one individually to how many, how many people are gonna go? Is it four? Three? Um, three or four close, like, closer friends, and then a total of eight. So. Okay. Okay. Well, if you, depending on your level of comfortability with this, and once you find your level of being comfortable, go past that by two more people, and I would just send them all individual texts. Say, Hey guys, looking forward to this weekend. Just a heads up. I'm not gonna be drinking. That's all that needs to be said. There doesn't need to be an explanation. You don't need to forward them the email that you sent me and most likely they're gonna be like, Dude, Corey, that's awesome. Let me know how we can help. We're gonna, we're gonna get some LaCroixs to stock the fridge… um, yeah. How do you feel about that? Um, yeah, I think it's i- I think it's a good plan. It's going to be… I think what I would get back with, from them is, you know, I, I'm gonna see what, how they respond to that. I think it's a good idea. I am a little uncomfortable doing that, I think, because like I said, who knows how that don't take me seriously or not, but I, I do think that's a good first step. Yeah. I thi- I think you should do it. I think you should. I, I'm not asking you to do anything that I haven't done myself, because really half the battle could be won before you even get in the car at 4:30 AM. They're gonna know, and you're gonna find out if they're your true friends, most likely they are, but you're also gonna find out, Hm. Maybe I'm in the wrong room. If these friends aren't supportive of me, this might be the last trip with those guys. Just my two cents on it. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah. But I've been there before, Corey, these are difficult times, but sometimes you just gotta put your head down and keep moving <laugh> forward, and let's talk about that. What is your plan in sobriety moving forward? Get past this weekend, but let's, let's talk about after that. How do you plan on getting day six, two weeks, three weeks, a month? Well, to be honest, I, I've gotten some books, I'm going to be, you know, focusing on reading those and trying to, you know, get my knowledge going on that, and, and listening to some of these, these, podcasts to try to… I, I, I think the plan is to just <laugh> hoping it magically comes to me when I, when I, if I just keep pounding it, you know, but I think there, I remember there's one pack that I was listening to, to of yours of… I wrote it down. I have it <inaudible> here somewhere. You had a list. 10 ways not to drink in a social, uh, gathering. I wrote this all down. My… This is… I went back to like early days for you, Paul. <laugh>. <crosstalk>. And I listened. One he when he said don't go, he said don't go and I'm like, well, I gotta to go sometimes. You know what I mean? Like- Yeah. like I have a trip planned <laugh> before I go to Colombia, and I think Colombia is gonna be great, but I have a trip planned that I planned… I don't know why, I really planned this to be honest with you, Paul. But it's going to, to Oktoberfest in Germany. <laugh> And you know what that is. So… I am aware. <laugh>. that… Yeah. Yeah. So that one is probably not the best case. I'm almost doomed to fail there in a way. So I, so… <laugh> I'm not really sure, Paul. I guess I don't have a totally le- long plan. I, you know, I'm just trying to like continue to learn about and, uh, continue to get progress, you know, with like the week, and, and write down, I guess what, where I trip up and how I trip up, and, uh, try to learn from those situations, and, and go from there. Outside of that, like then I have that three month stint in, in Colombia, where I'm going to be in a different country. That can go either way, you know, that, I think it'll be fine where I can just, you know, sit down there without having to, to drink. And I, and I think I did a good streak going on down there, but at the same time, you know, you're talking about not having, not knowing a lot of people down there, um, it's gonna be pretty tempting, but at the same time I'm not going to have these outside forces that, that I have here that'll, that'll kind of pushed me in that direction. But I think there is like two parts to that battle. It's, it's the battle of the outside world, that kind of tempts you a little bit, that battle inside your own head that kind of tells you, Oh yeah, I've, I've, I've done this. I've, I've had a hard day at work. I, I'm totally okay to, to drink, you know, a little bit. So, or a lot. So. Corey, I gotta give you c- props because your, your plan in the future is probably like the least of the plan I've heard after <laugh> interviewing, you know, 190 people right now. However, the… But I'm not worried about that one bit, because you have the most important mindset, which is desire to quit drinking. The plan will fall into place. It will, it just will. If you want it enough and you keep at it, the plan is gonna fall into place. I'm not worried about that, and there's no secret formula, you know, you say, Hey what's your plan of sobriety moving forward? and people list 30 things that sound incredible, you listed going to Oktoberfest is part of your plan in Germany <laugh>- Yeah. It's <crosstalk>- Yeah. Like, I, I mean that's totally fine. Everybody's journey is different. In fact, that actually might be part of your journey. You might get out there and say, Oh my God, this is not for me. I can see alcohol for what it is. Or you might learn some valuable lessons while drinking in Oktoberfest and might have the vacation and you might make the least of Oktoberfest in Germany and say, Look, this is definitely not for me. But like I said, I gotta give you props. You have the most important requirement to be on this podcast, and that's a desire to stop drinking. It doesn't really matter if the plan's right or wrong. Everybody has a different plan. My plan went to shit several times in recovery, but the plan eventually all falls into place. So Corey, you're in the right spot, you're exactly where you need to be right now. Yeah, and I, and I do think it's all about having that mindset of, of progress like in the, in the best direction, and, and knowing that it is getting better, because when I look back and I think about where I was, Pat, like last year at this time, I was like stopping home af- hitting the store after work and getting a 30 pack of, of beer, and I would make a big dent in it in one day and be like, <laugh> like What? you know what I mean, like every day of the week. And now that I'm, I'm not even close to where I was then, I, I just know that the progress is getting in the right, right direction. And I know I've probably set myself up for, for some close calls or some, <laugh> some interesting situations with the O- you know, with going to Germany, I could've been going anywhere else in Europe and I probably would have had- <laugh>. 10,000 times better chance. But, um, I'll take that into account the next time I plan an international trip. So, I guess that's a, that's a, that's a learning lesson. And I think it's all about learning there. Yeah, it's, it's, it's kind of, <laugh> it's kind of embarrassing for sure, but I know you're giving me perhaps, but I do fe- I did feel like I, I might not be… I, I do think I'd, I have a good history enough to be credible in a way but not fully credible, if you know what I mean. So. Oh, you're doing great. Corey, you're doing great. And before we reached the rapid fire round, there's a couple of questions I want to ask. So when you have experienced a craving within these past five days or before, how'd you get past them? Well, really, the, the big one for me is, is having some sort of beverage that, that tastes good that doesn't have alcohol in it. And basically the, the big thing is, is Seltzer water for me. That's like huge. If I have a pack of that at home and I can like go home from work, and I go straight home from work, you know, from the office to home, I can go to the gym and, and work out, eat dinner, and then I can just like crush, uh, eight cans of sparkling water while I'm, while I'm playing guitar or something. And that'll get me into the night and then I just go to the bed from there. And I think that really works for me, that routine, and like even that, there's really no craving to go to the bar on the weekday when I'm, when I'm doing that, I'm engulfed in that, and I'm trying to learn like the latest Van Halen solo or something like, that I'm listening to, and I think that's really doing it for me. It's just like, hey, I, having, having all that time on the weekends and getting to Friday night where you're just like, what are you doing? You know, like what are you going to be doing Friday night? That's r- that's where it really gets me. So. But I think planning, planning stuff on, on the weekends that doesn't involve it i- is pretty key too. It's just unfortunate that, that some travel plans do involve it and you have to be prepared to deal with those situations. So. Yeah. Apart from Oktoberfest, what is, what's on your bucket list in sobriety? Well, the bucket list is to get really damn good at guitar and to like record an album for sure. That's, that's on my bucket list and I definitely get derailed and I spend… because as a musician and, and you're working a full time job, you know, uh, in a different career path, you're, you don't have a lot of time, and so you're talking about wasting all your free time, you know, getting drunk at the bar, spending $100 dollars that you could be spending on musical equipment. Like that's, that's a big deal. When you have goals like that that aren't being met and you're just kind of floating through life, you know, work and then get drunk on weekends, and you're, you have these unmet goals. It just, it gets depressing after a while. So, so I think that's a big thing for me for a bucket list. Another bucket list of mine is to just make the most out of this job experience at Colombia for sure, meet fantastic people down there and come away with something fantastic for my work resume as well. And that starts with, with being sober and going into work every day with a clear head and a full night's sleep because that, that means a, a ton of productivity. So, those are two big ones, and then <laugh> I have the other big one, Paul, I can talk about this, is one of the main reasons why I wanted to quit for sure was when, when I eventually want a family, you know what I mean? Like, like I got to tell myself I can quit all this bullshit before I have a family, not during or after, you know, I got to prove it before that I'm gonna be- Sure. worth it or, or, or a good enough person to be a father. So I think that's a big one on my bucket list. So. I love it, Corey. And we have reached the rapid fire round. If you could answer these questions in 30 to 60 seconds, that would be great. Are you ready? Yes, I am. Number one. What was your worst memory from drinking? Oh, um, definitely that incident I'd said about, uh, the Halloween incident where I got back and I was just drinking. I, I we- came from a party in it to be alone, to drink alone and I was just like, What am I doing right now? You know what I mean? This can't be where I need to be on a Saturday or Friday night. This, this can't be it. So that was my worst memory. We've all heard of the Aha moment. What was your Oh, shit moment indicating you should probably quit drinking? <laugh>. Well, it was probably when, you know, when the denial ended and I was kind of having a depressive cycle and, um, and, and I mentioned this before when I was drinking to go to sleep and when I was quitting tobacco, it's because I couldn't fall asleep without it. And I was like, There is some serious damage I'm doing to the organs in my body, and if I don't stop this, it's gonna take me. And I'm really worried about my life or my, m- my health. So that was my Oh, shit moment was, you know, I can't control my drinking and it's really gonna cost, cost me in the long term of my health. And Corey, what's your favorite resource and recovery? Well, it, you know, it, it might have to be this podcast because initially when I, when I wanted to hear more and, and learn more, I, I went to the podcasts and I and I, it took me a while to find this one, but I f- I feel like this format worked the best out of all of them, and, and just getting the… But that's the, this podcast in general has been huge for me, just to get somebody else to, to at- you know teach me about this. And so I think that's been my, my favorite resource, because it, it's something I can listen to on the road when I'm traveling. Yeah. Thanks for listening, Corey. Much appreciated. And in regards to sobriety what's the best advice you've ever received? Best advice I've ever received is that… this is, this is a tough one. I want to say that it's… it sound cliche, but it's definitely just to take it one day at a time, because like I, like you said, uh, um, I got Oktoberfest coming up, but if I s- if I do it today and I do it tomorrow, when I get three or four weeks under my belt or two weeks under my belt before I go to O- Germany, am I gonna want to ruin those two weeks by, by wasting it in Germany? So, I think that's the best advice. And what parting piece of advice can you give to listeners? I think just to get out of that trap of like being in college and having that college party a- attitude and, and, and just like knowing the best not, like, that shouldn't be the way to go. That shouldn't be the way to happiness or to have that party mentality because it's just going to catch up to you eventually. And I, and I think everybody's kind of got to go through it just to, just to get out that mindset that, that that's, that that's acceptable socially, because it'll… you know, it, it'll progress and it will get worse and worse. So. And before we depart, Corey, give listeners your own customized You might be an alcoholic if… line. Um, you might be <laugh> an, an alcoholic if you always, whenever you go grocery shopping, you, uh, pick up a 30 rack of beer, and it's multiple times in a week. So. Gotcha. Thank you so much for joining us, Corey. Much appreciated. Yeah, thanks Paul. Another cool law that the upper house in Ireland also voted to introduce was a 9:00 PM watershed before which alcohol advertising cannot be broadcast. The whole idea of Cafe RE came to light at about 1:55 AM. I think it was late July, early August 2014. I was searching on Facebook for recovery groups. Little did I know at that time, like Cafe RE, it's confidential, you can't just simply search it, find it and join it. Most of them are set up that way. So I didn't find a group, but what I did find at 1:55 AM was a sponsored Bud Light Lime ad. I got dressed as fast as I could, because I knew I had five minutes to make it to the gas station before they stopped selling alcohol at 2:00 AM. I think this watershed rule that you can't advertise alcohol past a certain timeframe is a fantastic idea. Again, I'll let you know if I hear more about this. I got a great You might be an alcoholic if… line from a gentleman named Giovanni. Here it goes: You might be an alcoholic if you buy the hangover cure pills at the gas station instead of fixing the real problem. I did a couple of quick Google searches, just typed in gas station hangover pills, and oh my gosh, there's an entire industry, probably a multimillion, maybe even a billion dollar industry built around avoiding the real problem, alcohol. Wow. This shit is powerful. Recovery Elevator. We took the elevator down. We got to take the stairs back up. We can do this. 

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+From New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today, national Republicans are determined to discredit the statewide recount underway in Florida, as illegitimate and fraudulent. What Democrats have learned from the last time, Republicans used that strategy. It's Wednesday, November 14th. Uh, do we have Tallahassee? Sorry, yeah. Ca- can you guys hear me now? Oh, it's Jeremy. Hey, Jeremy. Oh, my God. Hi, handsome Jeremy. How are you? I know, what a face for radio I have. Ha. I spoke with my colleagues, Maggie Haberman in Washington and Jeremy Peters in Tallahassee, Florida. Jeremy, this is probably going to be you with Florida. Um, when the polls close on Tuesday night in Florida, what do we see? So there are two big races going on in Florida. The governor's race and the race for United States Senate. And, by the end of the evening, it looks like Republicans are in place to win both of those. A big day and a big night for Republicans here in Florida. Thank you, Florida, for your support. Good morning, Ray. It was a big night for Republicans here in Florida, but let's take a look first at that senate race because we're calling- In the senate race, you have the state's current governor, Rick Scott running to unseat the Democratic incumbent, Bill Nelson. been in the Senate for 18 years, so that was a big switchover- And that's a pretty pivotal race because it's going to determine how comfortable the Republicans' majority is in the Senate. And speaking of Florida, we're going to look at this Governor's race and update here, Ron DeSantis- In the Governor's race, you have Ron DeSantis. I'd like to thank our president for standing by me when- This kind of Trump-styled Republican who became famous for running an ad that featured his young son building a wall out of toy bricks. mr President, I look forward to working with you- And it looks like he has defeated Andrew Gillum- We recognize that, you know, we didn't, we didn't win it tonight. who would become the State's first African American governor. But that does not appear to be happening on election night. Earlier this evening, I called mr Ron DeSantis and congratulated him on what we expect will be him as the next governor of the great State of Florida. So this starts to look like a Republican wipe-out in a state that is considered a bellwether for the country of Florida. Yeah. That's exactly right. And because it's Florida, it's really close, but decisive enough that the Republicans feel very confident as they go to sleep that night. Then, overnight, the vote totals continue to trickle in. Of the state's 67 counties, Palm Beach and Broward Counties were still counting votes Saturday. And for Senate candidate, Republican Governor, Rick Scott, the vote totals are narrowing.Democratic Tallahassee Mayor, Andrew Gillum, has now narrowed the lead to .47 of a percentage point. And, then, just yesterday, the Republican lead shrunk even more. Both Republicans see their leads cut considerably. The tallies between Republican Governor, Rick Scott and Incumbent Democrat, Bill Nelson, are so narrow, it could be within the margin requiring an additional manual recount. They don't just feed the ballots into the machines now. Now they're going to take them out and hand-inspect them. It looks like that's where it's heading here. Razor-thin margins in the battle for Florida's governor. Democrat, Andrew Gillum, has not retracted his election night concession. Replacing, uh, my words of concession, with an uncompromised and unapologetic call that we count every single vote. We count every vote. Uh, and I say this, recognizing, uh, that, uh, my fate in this may or may not change. You know, let's be clear here. The Republican candidates in both races still have at this point a pretty significant advantage, but it's close enough that the automatic recount called for in the law is triggered and the State appears headed toward a statewide recount in all 67 counties. So with these two races in Florida, governor and senator, hanging in the balance, how do Democrats start to respond to this situation? It's become obvious that mr Scott cannot oversee the process in a fair and impartial way and he should remove himself from the recount process. People must have confidence in the integrity of the election. So Democrats have looked at this recount, which was legally mandated in Florida as a way to underscore something that they say is going on with Republicans, not just in Florida, but nationally, which is trying to undermine faith in democracy, itself. Trying to undermine faith that elections are sound and being held appropriately. And what do we see Republicans doing that would support that characterization by Democrats? The main issue is, among other things, trying to protest a legally mandated recount… We've seen that before, but they are doing it with claims of fraud. I think they just cut open an alligator in the Everglades and found two more boxes of ballots down in Broward County <laugh> .Every Floridian should be concerned there may be a rampant fraud happening in Palm Beach and Broward Counties. Election fraud charges are flying. Florida quote: It's clear the Democrats' goal here is not to count every vote fairly, but to steal an election. I will not sit idly by while unethical liberals try to steal this election from the great people of Florida. And it's mostly in their language, but they are infecting the process with a tinge of something improper taking place. National Republicans and Republicans, locally in Florida, have said Democrats are trying to find a way to reverse the result here. Hm. They have pointed to the fact that Republicans are up and that there aren't enough ballots and so Democrats are looking for a way to try to undo that. Democrats, obviously, deny that. But, if history shows that only the tiniest fraction of elections are ever reversed based on recounts, then isn't a recount really just a validation of the winning candidate? It just gives you a clearer picture of exactly how much they won by. And, if that's the case, why are Republicans resisting this or trying to undermine it? Because a big part of the conservative political identity, especially over the last decade, is to question the legitimacy of American elections. To push the unproven and often unfounded claim that Democrats cheat and steal and stuff the ballot box. And that's why Republicans have lost in certain close races. What recounts are supposed to do, is reaffirm the public's faith that the election they've just seen happen, a very close, close election, is indeed legitimate, and that they can trust the outcome. mm-hmm <affirmative>. But there's this pattern now that Republicans have picked up on where they can kind of combine these arguments that they've long made about voter fraud. And the infection of the electoral process by people who are out to cheat. And this is like the perfect storm of that happening in Florida, and they seize on it. Hm. There is tremendous political power for the Republicans in claiming that the Democrats are trying to steal what is to them a settled election. And that motivates the Republican conservative base in a big way. In the broadest terms, what you're seeing right now in Florida by Republicans, in terms of strategy, bridges all the way back to the 2000 Presidential Election where you had Republicans decrying Democrats and suggesting that they were using dishonest means to try to grab the State back in favor of Al Gore. It feels very similar and evocative. Good evening. I'm Tom Brokaw in New York. It's been a long campaign. It appears it will be a long and exciting evening before we know who is the next President of the United States. Polls have just- You have a strikingly similar situation on election night and the immediate aftermath as you do today. CNN announces that we call Florida in the Al Gore column. This is a state both campaigns desperately wanted- Stand by. Stand by. Uh, CNN, right now, is moving our earlier declaration of Florida… George Bush, Governor of Texas, will become the 43rd President of the United States at 18 minutes past two o'clock, Eastern Time. CNN declares- Gore calls George W. Bush on election night, thinking he's lost. And he concedes to Bush. And they look at the numbers a little bit more closely in the Gore campaign. And they grab Gore just as he is about to go onstage and deliver his concession speech in Nashville and convince him, No. This is not over. Governor Bush because Al Gore has recanted that concession that he gave earlier on this evening, so, um, standby. I'll try to get a little bit more information. He calls George Bush back and retracts his concession. This race is simply too close to call. And until the results, the recount is concluded and the results of Florida become official, our campaign continues. And what you have after that is this protracted recount fight- This will continue until there is a re-vote. <inaudible>… in the courts, on the streets in protest and in the news media and a battle for the hearts and minds of Americans. Tell us a little bit more about that. What did Republicans do back then in 2000 that would be looked back at now as a kind of inspiration? So the Republican Party and the Bush campaign never stopped treating the recount like it was anything other than a campaign. Two weeks after the Presidential Election, a court has decided that Florida's deadline for counting votes and certifying votes was not a deadline at all. That was very different from how Al Gore and his team approached it. I firmly believe that the will of the people should prevail and I am gratified that the court's decision will allow us to honor that simple constitutional principle. There's this very telling scene recounted in Jeffrey Toobin's book on the Florida recount of 2000 where the Gore campaign staff, in flying down its young volunteers to help with the recount, tells them to take off their campaign pins, so that they are not a part of the Gore campaign anymore. They are there for something very different. Hm. George W. Bush and the Republican Party, on the other hand, saw this as a fight they needed, not only to win in court, but they needed to win in the court of public opinion. The Bush campaign representative, James Baker, was displeased. It is not fair to change the rules and standards governing the counting or recounting of votes after it appears that one side is concluded that is the only way to get the votes it needs. Republican demonstrators cheered as the already counted ballots were returned to election headquarters and a well-known former presidential candidate, Bob Dole, said it is not fair to count those dimpled chads. That meant mobilizing demonstrators. Adding more fuel to the fire, GOP protestors <inaudible> with a ballot in hand, leading them to charge he had stolen a ballot. This is the most brazen attempt by the Gore people and the Democrat machine and the thugs in that building to hijack the American Presidency. And part of the street fight aspect of the Bush campaign's strategy is to deploy demonstrators, who are actually Republican staffers, some of them from Capitol Hill. Hm. And they sparked this instant that became known somewhat derisively as the Brooks Brothers riot. Hm. Where a number of these staffers gathered in the Miami Dade building where the recount by hand was taking place saying that there was cheating going on inside. Hm. That this process was illegitimate and that the Democrats were trying to steal the Presidential Election. That protest that they shut down, the recount in Miami Dade, and it never resumed after that and that could have been the difference that allowed George W. Bush to keep his advantage in Florida. We believe that the Miami Dade County Canvassing Board made the right decision for the right reasons. They, in essence, said that there is a limit, that there are rational reasons for us to reject this idea of a rush to judgment in an attempt to try and reconstruct an election. As I recall it, eventually, recounts are done after the election that showed George W. Bush would have won, if the recount had proceeded. Other scenarios, counting a broader set of ballots, suggest Gore might have prevailed. But I guess that's all sort of beside the point because the strategy was to stop the recount and to sew doubt. That's exactly right. And, if you look back then at the way that Republicans were casting doubt on the integrity of the electoral process and accusing Democrats of effectively stealing an election, or trying to, that is what you hear an awful lot today from Republicans and from President Trump, himself, when they are implying that Democrats cheat their way to victory. Right. And I think that you are seeing Democrats more mobilized this time to suggest that the Republicans are acting just in total bad faith. But there is something similar going on where Democrats are basically saying, We need to have every vote counted, and Republicans are, essentially, saying, You are all focusing on the wrong story. The right story is the Democrats are trying to steal this. And there's absolutely no evidence of fraud taking place. This is what judges have said. This has been shown over and over. So, again, as you did in 2000, to Jeremy's point, you have Republicans treating this like an extension of the run-up to Election Day. Hm. I do think it's important to point out that there are political motivations on both sides as they fight through this recount. Democrats say they want to count every vote, but Democrats are also trying to remove standards and safeguards that would allow vote counters to determine whether or not a ballot is fraudulent. Hm. They're basically saying that the standards that exist in first place in evaluating the signatures on ballots are too rigid and they shouldn't be applied. And that leaves you in a situation where you don't really have a standard to judge whether or not a ballot is valid. And that I think is troublesome to people on both sides of this. So the Democrats are trying to loosen the rules after the election in a way that could clearly help Democrats in a recount. Yes. They're arguing that point in court. So Democrats are more actively involved this time than they were in 2000 in trying to play this game that Republicans have been doing so effectively. What else is different this time than from 2000? It's a great question and it's answered with one word, which is, Trump. Almost immediately from Europe, Saturday, President Trump lashed out at Democrats, tweeting, Trying to steal two big elections in Florida. We are watching closely. The president has been involved in this recount and in trying to put his thumb on the scale in ways that we've really never seen a U.S. President do. President Trump, today, tweeted, The Florida election should be called in favor of Rick Scott and Ron DeSantis. And that large numbers of new ballots showed up out of nowhere and many ballots are missing or forged. An honest vote count is no longer possible. Ballots massively infected. Must go with election night. He has offered an opinion on this. He has described the ballots and the process as quote-unquote, infected. We, in part… You mean they are just now finding votes in Florida? In Georgia? But the election was on Tuesday. Let's blame the Russians and demand an immediate apology from President Putin. Now, Republicans will privately say they wish he were being more restrained, but they certainly are not saying that publicly. Why would Republicans want him to be more restrained? Because it could create a backlash because when he says things, it tends to create an equal and opposite, if not greater, reaction among voters who oppose him. mm-hmm <affirmative>. And because there's always the risk that his involvement could end up tainting a court proceeding and that a judge could see it that way. So they would rather he not get involved. And why exactly is President Trump so invested in this situation in Florida? I think for a couple of reasons. One… he understands it's an important state, electorally. And number two… It's a state where in the DeSantis campaign, he and his aides essentially took over DeSantis' race. They installed their own people. They sent their own advisors in to run it. He saw DeSantis as something of a mini-me. And in the case of Rick Scott, Scott had been uncertain how closely he wanted to hug Trump, which Trump took personally and it turned out that Rick Scott did need him. So I think for all of those reasons, he sees two elections that he thinks have a lot to do with him. If both sides, first Republicans and now, in response, Democrats, are treating recounts as extensions of campaigns based on what they learned in 2000, and we're now seeing that unfolding in Florida, where does this all go? Not just in Florida, but the next time there's another big recount? I think that you can assume that it gets more political. I think that you can assume that the tactics become nastier. I think you can assume the language becomes louder and more accusatory. I think that you are seeing the systemic degradation of norms and a faith in institutions and everything is getting replaced with being about politics only. So yet another institution that Americans have lost to politics. The one reasonable certainty that Americans had about elections in addition to that they would be the first Tuesday after the first Monday of November is that they would be conducted with civic-mindedness. That there would be rules and integrity that are adhered to. And that it wouldn't be all about what party you're involved in. But those norms, like a lot else in our political system right now, have degraded. Jeremy, Maggie, thank you both very much. Thank you. Thank you. Election workers across the state are racing against the clock right now to get every vote counted before Thursday's deadline. Thursday, 3:00 p.m. all 67 counties must have their recount numbers in or, according to law, those votes won't be counted. Broward is confident they will make that. However, up in Palm Beach County where they have older machines, they do seriously worry that they can't make that Thursday deadline. We'll be right back. Every business has a mission. Core to Google Cloud's mission is to protect yours. That's why they've baked security features into every layer of their cloud, from inscription and custom hardware chips to shark-proof, undersea fiber-optic cables that are part of their global network, plus their world class team of security engineers. Help defend your company 24 / 7, 365, letting you put more focus on the things that drive your business forward. Learn more at g.co/cloudsecure. Go make it. We'll protect it. Here's what else you need to know today. On Tuesday, fearing a crackdown by federal regulators, the company that dominates the e-cigarette market in the U.S. said it will stop selling most of its flavored products at retail stores and will no longer promote them on social media. The proportion of high school teenagers using e-cigarettes has reached nothing short of epidemic levels, in my view. And it requires us to step in and take dramatic action to try to curtail this. You know, we've- The company, Juul, is the subject of intense scrutiny by the FDA, whose commissioner, Scott Gottlieb, had planned to ban the flavored products at many stores after discovering that underage use of vaping products has surged. A lot of this use is being driven by one manufacturer… in particular, with Juul, I think we need to acknowledge that. Juul has denied that it markets to children under 18, but its flavored products, like mango and cream, have prompted accusations that the company is directly targeting underage customers. And, in an unusual move, CNN sued the Trump administration on Tuesday in an effort to reinstate the press credentials of its Chief White House Correspondent, Jim Acosta. Uh, thank you, mr President. I challenge you on, on one of the statements that you made in the tail end of the campaign. Uh, in the midterms that- Here we go. That… Well, if you don't mind, mr President… that this caravan was an invasion. The White House had stripped his credential after a news conference last week during which Acosta asked an unwelcome question about immigration and did not relinquish a microphone to a White House intern after the president tried to move on to another reporter. You know what? That's not an invasion. Honestly, I think you should let me run the country. You run CNN. And, if you did it well, your ratings would be- Let me ask you… If I may ask you another question. mr President, if I may you one other question. Are you worried- That's enough. That's enough. mr President. I just want to ask one other… the other folks- That's enough. Pard me ma'am, I'm, I'm- In its lawsuit, CNN argued that the removal of Acosta's White House press pass was a violation of his First Amendment Right to freely report on the government. That's it for The Daily. I'm Micheal Barbaro. See you tomorrow. Fidelity believes nothing should come between you and your money, so they're introducing zero account fees with zero minimums to open an account. Now you can invest with zero trade-offs. Visit Fidelity.com/value for more. Zero account minimums and zero account fees apply to retail brokerage accounts only. Expenses charged by investments such as funds and managed accounts, commissions, interest charges, or other expenses for transactions may still apply. Fidelity Brokerage Services, Member NYSE SIPC. 

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+From the New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Today, the Camp Fire, one of the deadliest and the most destructive wildfires in California history, continues to rage in the state, as two other fires burn there simultaneously. In a state where devastating wildfires were already the new normal, this time feels different. It's Monday, November 12th. Paradise is right in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada, about a 100 miles north of Sacramento. It has roots back in the old extraction economy days of the 1800s as a logging and mining town. But its real life in recent years has been partly as a retirement community, and partly as an affordable place for people who don't have a lot of money. It, uh, has a kind of working class vibe. And I never saw it in the days before the fire, but it, by all accounts, was a beautiful place. Kirk Johnson is a national correspondent covering the west. He spent the weekend in Paradise, California. Around 6:30 am on Thursday it began in the hills near Paradise. This is legit how dark it is in my car right now, and it is 10:23 in the morning. Um, and it's so s- smokey out, that it looks like night time. Like, I can't even see inside the house. I'm in my car right now. Um, we're loading up, and me and my mom are gonna be meeting down at Kohl's in Chico. And a kind of a fire storm roared through with a pace that no one there had ever witnessed or really foreseen, I think. It's 11:39 in the afternoon. The only reason I can see, is because of this light. Holy shit. It was something that could not be stopped. Those are homes down there. All this is happening right now. It's 12:42 in the afternoon, and all I see is smoke. And because it was sweeping through a populated area, 26 thousand people in that valley, it was all about rescue and getting people out. And there was no attempt or ability to even start to do anything about it, until it was hours into the fire. So it all became about evacuation, before it ever became about putting it out? Absolutely. And evacuation from a home was really for many people only the beginning of the ordeal and the horror. We're on the road, and we're, we're meters away. And we're all stuck on this road. And people's houses… and the fucking wind is bringing it over. Why is it- I wonder what the fuck they're gonna do. There's one main highway in and out of Paradise. I'm on Skyway, on my way out right now, everything is on fire. And it was choked with people escaping, but also fire closing in on both sides of the highway as… Go. people talked about, and, and photographed and recorded at the time. I hope the fucking car isn't set on fire, because I've got this. This is fireproof? I bloody hope so. What's up with the light? People told me about getting into their cars, and the car died, and the fire is closing in. And they can see the fire, and they can see neighbors' homes on fire, and suddenly they have no way out. The window is so hot, I can't even touch the window right now. Oh, my God, it's <unk:like_that>. And one woman described going by a motor home that had pulled off and was fully engulfed in flames. And the traffic had them stopped with her vehicle right next to this burning motor home. mm-hmm <affirmative>. And they couldn't get out, and the heat was coming through the glass of their car from the blazing motor home. And it felt like hours, she said. But it was probably, you know, a couple of minutes. And they were able, they were able to get past it. Those fires, those fires- And guess what? We're not gonna catch on fire, okay? Okay. We're gonna stay away from it, and we'll be just fine. Okay? Okay. We're doing all right. Another guy told me they had gotten the signal that it was closing in, when they started hearing propane tanks exploding in the neighborhood around them. So they ran from their home. This was, uh, a guy who didn't own a car, so they went onto the road on foot. There was, um, a young pregnant woman, and eight people all together. mm-hmm <affirmative>. And a guy in a pickup truck just pulled up next to them and screamed, get in the back. And they piled in, and made it down. Oh, shit. Look, that's a tree that's on fire there right in front of us. Oh, my God. Should I pray to God? Yeah. I don't know how to. Shirley is praying right now. There was just one story after another that was impossible to forget. Okay. Just keep going. I know. By the time I drove up Skyline, it had been 48 hours since that mass escape, and the smoke was intensely thick still. The ash was still falling from the sky, and ash coated everything that had been airborne, and still laying down a layer of ash. mm-hmm <affirmative>. The power lines and power poles were down across portions of the road. And then vehicles that had burned to the middle frames, and glass, and melted things everywhere. And it was impossible for me not to just stop sometimes, and look at a scene, and try and imagine what had unfolded there. mm-hmm <affirmative>. When you would go by a, a school bus, and, and it was, you know, completely gutted by flame, you know, what had happened there? Who had been in that bus? mm-hmm <affirmative>. And where did they go, and how did they get out? Kirk, how many people do we know to have died in this fire, at this point, as we're talking on Sunday afternoon? 23. Mm. It's still a running tally, so we don't know where it's gonna end up. But based on where we are, it looks like it will be the third most deadly in lives lost. But most destructive in terms of homes and businesses, and communities destroyed. And that's because this fire, it sounds like, behaved in a way that… despite the history of wildfires in California, was somehow unlike anything before? The general nature of fires, they don't burn generally every single thing. They seek out the fuels that are handy, in a way, and… mm-hmm <affirmative>. and drawn toward those. But if there's a new normal that is feared, it's the kind of fire like Camp Fire that is sort of monolithic and kind of sweeping the slate. And that's really raised a lot of anxieties about what the future might hold. mm-hmm <affirmative>. So these fires burn everything. They don't hop around. They don't skip a tree or a house, they just consume everything. There were huge stretches of that very pattern in Paradise. It didn't seem to leave anything standing. Or its pace, and its heat and its, um, velocity was such that it didn't pick and choose, and it just swept. So more or less the town of Paradise was destroyed this weekend? That is about what you have to say. The cumulative impact is really going to be either the end of that community, or a moment to think about rebuilding it entirely. mm-hmm <affirmative>. There was very little that looked like, well, here's a place where you can kind of start over and go back. mm-hmm <affirmative>. The assumption by survivors and former residents is that the place is gone, and that they have nothing left to go back to there. Good evening. My name is Steve <unk:Copping>. I'm a fire captain with the <unk:Madera> County Fire Department. And I'm the public information officer for Cal Fire Incident Management Team 4. And how has the federal government responded to the Camp Fire, and to what's happening right now in California? I'm gonna start out with the most current numbers. The federal government has responded as it always has for emergencies of this sort. The total fire fighters assigned to the fire right now, <unk:3223>. The personnel and the coordination, and the promise of funding has been there. There's more than 7000 fire fighters out on the fire lines still. But many of those assumptions were sort of upended on Saturday… President Trump is responding to the fires burning in California right now. when President Trump tweeted that… There's no reason for these massive deadly and costly forest fires in California. there were mismanagement issues of the forests in play in California. Billions of dollars are given each year. With so many lives lost, all because of gross mismanagement of the forest, remedy now, or no more fed payments. And that really hit a raw nerve for people who were still reeling from it… That statement was idiotic. Um, it was ill-timed, and, um, it's ignorant. in fearing that the federal response or the future response was somehow in doubt. Uh, look, I don't think it's a gross exaggeration to say, Trump's declared war on California. Governor <unk:like> Gavin Newsom immediately and vehemently denounced the president's tweet. He said that, This is not a time for partisanship. mm-hmm <affirmative>. So clearly interpreted the president's statement as a politically driven, rather than land management or environmental policy statement. mm-hmm <affirmative>. And presumably politically driven at a democratically dominated state? That is certainly how you would read Gavin's statement. And President Trump is suggesting that these fires are the fault of mismanagement, presumably by the State of California. Is that, is that what people think he's saying? That appears to be the suggestion, that the State of California was somehow at fault in managing those lands. But the fact is that the vast majority of forest lands in California, like most of the west, are federal. mm-hmm <affirmative>. The community of Paradise itself really backs up to a national forest, and those are not state policies at all. The US Forest Service defines and, and manages those lands, for better or worse. And there are definitely people who believe federal forest management has not been… mm-hmm <affirmative>. exactly what it should be. Well, and also, how much of this… as far as we understand it, does have to do with forest management, versus say, climate change? That's a hard mix to try and parse out. mm-hmm <affirmative>. Certainly there are many areas in the west and in California, where decades of fire suppression… when a fire starts in a forest, you try and put it out. That's been the… mm-hmm <affirmative>. that's been the mantra since, you know, the Smokey Bear days. And there's also a lot less logging in a lot of those areas, that people have said reduces the fuel load that can burn in a fire. So it may be that it kind of comes from both sides. mm-hmm <affirmative>. If a forest is less healthy at a time when the environment around it is also changing, and drying, and whatever, it gets hit from both sides. So fire suppression, combined with less logging, may leave these forests primed for fires. And climate change may do the rest. In that sense the president has a point about the need to manage these forests. But in fact it sounds like you're saying, Kirk, that that's really the job of his own federal government, more than the State of California, that he just threatened to withhold funds from. Well, if it comes back down to who owns the land, then, yeah. mm-hmm <affirmative>. You can only hold the State of California responsible for what it's responsible for. And like most western states, the federal government is a giant presence on the land. Whether it's in Forest Service or Bureau of Land Management, or Fish and Wildlife, it's a huge cumulative force that either does its job well, or, or doesn't. And Kirk, as we speak on Sunday afternoon, the Camp Fire, which destroyed so much of Paradise, is just one of the three fires that are still burning in California. Right. The Camp Fire became the focus and in the huge numbers of homes and businesses destroyed and lives lost, that sort of focal point of the fires. But it's really a fire moment in a totally catastrophic and really I guess, coincidental way. I mean, uh, environmental forces are always interconnected, but the Camp Fire began early in the morning on Thursday, and seven hours later the Woolsey Fire began in Southern California. mm-hmm <affirmative>. And in a state where something like that is coming from both ends at you, starting at the same day, it's a collective trauma, rather than, you know, one big, bad disaster. You know, ever since the officials in California started using this phrase, new normal, I've struggled to understand how anyone could possibly embrace that concept. That at any moment in California, no matter what season of the year it is, your home, your neighbor's home, your town hall, your post office, could just be destroyed by fire. As if that is somehow normal at all. I think it's, it's… Yeah. It's, it's an impossible thing to get your, your head around. It, it's like living in the present, we all say we wanna do it, but it's very difficult to do. And it's impossible, and probably not good for your mental health to walk around all the time thinking that your town, your home, your community, is on the sword's edge, or whatever. mm-hmm <affirmative>. So I think there's a lot of natural human denial that there is a new normal. It's, it's much easier to… and tempting, to wanna look back and say that, uh, things will look more like they have in the past. And we have dealt with bad things in the past, and we're tough. And, so how a new normal sinks into ordinary people is, I think, a tough road of its own that hasn't gone there yet. Kirk, thank you very much. We appreciate it. Well, thank you. By Sunday night the Camp Fire had matched the deadliest in California history with 29 fatalities. Seven of the victims in the town of Paradise died in their vehicles. We'll be right back. The Daily is brought to you by TD Ameritrade. When it comes to investing, each of us does it our own unique way. Some of us wanna go it alone, others might prefer some guidance. Regardless of your style, TD Ameritrade is always creating new solutions to help you. From their award-winning technology to personalized guidance, they have everything you need to invest on your terms. Visit tdameritrade.com/thedaily to learn more and get started today. Here is what else you need to know today. Joining us now from Naples, Florida, Governor Scott who thought he won the election to the Senate Tuesday night. Florida has begun the first full state-wide recount of votes in its history, after results from Tuesday's midterms left the elections for governor and US Senate too close to call. In the senate race Republican Rick Scott's lead over the Democratic incumbent Bill Nelson has slipped to 12 thousand 600 votes. Well, we had eight million people vote. Chuck Schumer spent over $50 million trying to beat me, but we won. In the governor's race Andrew Gillum, the Democrat, is behind about 33 thousand votes, and has retracted his earlier concession to his Republican opponent, Ron DeSantis. I am replacing, uh, my words of concession within an uncompromised and unapologetic call that we count every single vote. In the Georgia governor's race between Democrat Stacey Abrams and Republican Brian Kemp, there is still no declared winner, with the votes expected to be counted until tomorrow. And The Times is reporting that last year top Saudi intelligence officials close to the crown prince explored the possibility of using private companies to assassinate Iranian enemies of the kingdom. Coming months before the killing of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi, those talks indicate that Saudi officials have considered assassinations as a political tool since the beginning of crown prince Mohammad bin Salman's reign, as he was first consolidating power. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow. Here's to the early bird, and to caring about how things are made. Here's to starting every day like it's Sunday, and Sunday's being just another day. Here's to inspiring better sleep, wellness and happiness at home, Parachute, very comfortable bedding and bath linens. Visit parachutehome.com/thedaily for free shipping and returns on parachute's premium quality ultra-soft home essentials. Plus, they offer a 60 -day trial, so if you don't love it, just send it back. 

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+You know what's not smart? The way hiring used to be. Job sites that overwhelm you with tons of the wrong resumes. Now there's a smarter way at ziprecruiter.com/moth. ZipRecruiter's powerful matching technology finds the right people for you and actively invites them to apply. It's no wonder that ZipRecruiter is rated number one by employers in the U.S. and, right now Moth listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free at ziprecruiter.com/moth. That's ziprecruiter.com/M-O-T-H. The Moth is supported by Gillette. There's nothing worse than having to run to the store at the end of your busy day. Gillette gets it. By going online and subscribing to Gillette On Demand you'll never have to worry about running out of blades because they'll come straight to your door. Get a quality shave on your terms. Subscribe to Gillette On Demand today and get 50% off your first order with special offer themoth50. That's The Moth, and the number 50 at checkout. Enjoy free shipping and every fourth order free with subscription. Visit Gilletteondemand.com. From PRX this is The Moth Radio Hour. I'm Meg Bowles. Today we have stories from Moth stages around the U.S. New York City, Cincinnati, Ohio, Kansas City, Missouri and Traverse City, Michigan. Each of the storytellers in this hour has their own unique experience with various branches of the Armed Forces. Stories from the front lines both from home and abroad. Our first story comes from Jill Morgenthaler. Jill shared her story at an evening we produced at the Anderson Theater Memorial Hall. The theme of the night was intrepid. I am a Marine brat. My father was a career Marine. I adored him. I wanted to be him when I grew up, which wasn't likely in the 1960s. <laugh> The women who served then the wax and the waves. They were secretaries and nurses. They weren't allowed to command men. They weren't even allowed to have weapons in Vietnam. Well, in 1969 my father got orders for Vietnam and he sat me down in the living room and told me I was going to be in charge of my younger brother and sisters. I was not thrilled. My brother could be such a pest, and my father reminded me of the military code, You leave no one behind- <laugh>… even pesky little brothers. <laugh> Well, fortunately, he returned, and when I was 18 I was preparing to go to Penn State University. My father came home from the Pentagon one evening, where he worked now, and he told me that the Army was going to try an experiment. They're gonna actually train women with men. And, the experiment was gonna take place at 10 Universities and Penn State was one of them. So, I put in my application, and I was one of 10 women to get a four year Army ROTC scholarship. Thank you. Well, after my junior year it was time for us cadets to head off to leadership boot camp, and all the cadets in the eastern Universities were heading to ft Bragg, North Carolina. And in that experimental boot camp, there were 83 women headed to a military post of 50,000 men. Yeah. I remember when the bus arrived at ft Bragg I looked out the window and everywhere there were men. Men marching, men running, men barking orders. I just felt lost in this sea of testosterone. <laugh> And then when Carol and I… Carol was also from Penn State. When we started to get off the bus TV cameras were shoved in our faces, and reporters started barking at us. Do you think you're better than men? What do you think of this experiment? Why do you want to kill? And I knew things weren't going well when I saw all the soldiers stop and glare at us. I just wanted to disappear into the earth. Well, after Carol and I in processed we were heading to the women's barracks and that's when the name calling started. Butch. Bimbo. We stopped at a Coke machine as I started to put money into the machine a soldier came up and just knocked me out of the way. Go home, bitch. And I just didn't get it. Why couldn't I serve my country too? Well, I soon got it. The West Point officers were furious because women were about to start at West Point, and they couldn't stop it. The enlisted men were furious because once we became officers they'd have to take orders from a skirt. And my peers were furious because they thought women were gonna get all the cushy jobs. And they all came after us. One morning we're standing at the bottom of a 50 -foot tower. The sergeant looks around. He points at me and says, Blondie you're first. So, I climb up to the top of the tower, and the sergeant up there asked me if I know how to repel. I have to admit I don't even know what the word means. <laugh> <laugh> So, he explained he's gonna put me in a harness with clamps and I would bounce down a vertical wall. So, he told me to back up to the edge of the platform, but keep looking at him and lean back. So, I did. Lean back some more. So, I did. Some more. Next thing I am hanging upside down dangling 50 feet off the ground, and I can hear the soldiers on top of the platform just laughing their asses off. I'm terrified. I thought I was gonna fall to my death. Well, finally a soldier repels next to me. He uprights me. By the time my feet hit the ground, I am just frustrated. I mean, every day I was trying so hard to fit in. Every day, I was trying so hard to just be one of them, and they didn't get it. They didn't get why I wanted to be a soldier, and hunt down communist instead of hunting down a husband. But, I started to make end roads. One afternoon we had to turn our uniforms into a, into rafts and float down a river, and one cadet <unk:Mueskorski>, big guy. He came up and asked to be my buddy and I asked, Why? And he whispered to me that he didn't know how to swim. Okay, but why me? And he told me he knew I wouldn't leave him behind. Yeah, I was honored. <laugh> <laugh> Well, by the end of the six-week boot camp I had a sense of accomplishment. I mean, I survived. <laugh> <laugh> But, more than that, the Army did a peer rating, and my peers had to rate whether they would follow me into combat. I got a 100%. Ah, but then came the day before graduation. I'm sitting outside with my squad of guys and our Commander, Captain Mitchell, comes up and he tells us that the Army realized that because there's women at boot camp there should be a beauty contest. Yeah. Miss Foxhole 1975. <laugh> <laugh> I was disgusted. Really? And, he looked at me and said, Morgenthaler you're in it. And I tried to explain I don't want to be a beauty contestant I just want to be a soldier, and he told me he didn't care what I wanted it was an order. And, at that moment Mueskorski raised his hand and said, Sir. I'll be in it. <laugh> In drag. <laugh> Wow. Mueskorski was watching my back, and Captain Mitchell said, Fine- <laugh>… with Morgenthaler. <laugh> Nothing I could do. It was an order. So, that evening we're sitting in a tent behind an outdoor stage, and around the outdoor stage are 5,000 men yelling obscenities. Inside the tent, I'm in a blue cotton dress. The only dress I brought that summer. Mueskorski is in an evening gown. <laugh> Captain Mitchell's wife lent it to him. <laugh> Well, as each of the other women go out on stage and they sing or they dance, and I'm listening to the catcalls. I just feel like I'm about to be thrown to the wolves. Everything I had achieved that summer was about to be just wiped away. Well, soon it got down to Mueskorski and me and he tried to tell me, Oh just go out there and get it over with. Well, I stepped on stage and the men started grabbing my legs, then they started saying dirty things about my body. And I realized I had gone from being a member of the squad to just a bunch of body parts, and now I'm pissed. <laugh> <laugh> I stepped to the center of the stage. There's no way I was gonna dance for them. There's no way I was gonna sing for them. I stepped to the front of the stage and I flipped them the bird. <laugh> I flipped off 5,000 men. <laugh> And, then I did and an about-face. I marched off the stage through the tent, and then I broke into a run, and I managed to hold it in until I got behind the women's barracks and then I broke down crying. I felt so betrayed. I had given the Army everything I had that summer. I believe them when they said, Leave no one behind. And I cried, and then I heard a thunder of feet and look up and here comes my squad of men, and they are laughing and joking and they grab me in a hug and they're like, Morgenthaler we told Captain Mitchell don't you put her on stage sir. You do not know what she will do. <laugh> And then we heard a thunder of more feet. We look up and here comes Mueskorski still in drag- <laugh>… and he gives me the biggest bear hug and he says, Morgenthaler I don't know what you did on stage, but they crown me Miss Foxhole 1975. <laugh> I went on to serve for 30 years, peacetime and war. As a Colonel in Iraq I was in charge of the international coverage of Saddam Hussein's trial, and when I look back at the 30 years I'm just so proud to have served, to have been part of that band of brothers and sisters. And when I look back at that experiment as tough as it was, it really taught me not to ever leave anybody behind. And, by the way, there never was a Miss Foxhole 1976. <laugh> That was Colonel Jill Morgenthaler. Jill is the author of a book entitled The Courage to Take Command: Leadership Lessons from a Military Trailblazer. Jill has led hundreds of men and women around the world in peacetime and in war and she is the recipient of the Bronze Star and the Legion of Merit for her lifelong leadership. You can see a picture of Jill and her fellow female cadets at ft Bragg on our website themoth.org. Coming up a young soldier searches for meaning in the chaos of war when The Moth Radio Hour continues. The Moth Radio Hour is produced by Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole, Massachusetts, and presented by PRX. That Moth is supported by Boston Beer Company. Of all the beers Sam Adams has ever brewed they say Boston Lager is their all-time favorite. Not only has Boston Lager stood the test of time, but it also helped launch the whole craft beer revolution. That's because Boston Lager is full flavored, rich, and complex with the distinctive balance of spicy hops, sweet roasted malts, and a smooth finish. 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This is The Moth Radio Hour from PRX. I'm Meg Bowles. The U.S. military is deployed in more than 150 countries around the world. Our next storyteller, Dylan Parks served as a member of a U.S. Air Force Special Operations Security Forces Squadron and was deployed to Iraq. Here's Dylan Park live in Traverse City, Michigan. After graduating high school I was looking for a way out of my quiet hometown and Northern California. A military recruiter on campus told me that if I enlisted they'd pay my college tuition, I'd get to travel the world, and if I was lucky I might get to blow some shit up. <laugh> He sweetened the pot by saying he'd give me a $10,000 bonus by extending a three-year enlistment to a short six-year enlistment. <laugh> And $10,000 was a lot of money for a 19 -year-old, so I was sold. Now, about six months after I finished my military training I found myself in a place called Kirkuk, Iraq, which is one of the largest oil fields on the planet. It's also a hotbed of terrorism and one of the most violent places on the planet. My job there was to patrol the city around the base's perimeter, most days, but some days I'd be point, uh, posted at a front gate or a checkpoint somewhere where I'd spend a dozen hours patting down potential suicide bombers just praying that I'd get to live another day. Working those suicide gates was like playing this sick lottery, this Iraqi roulette, that you didn't want to win, and over the course of that year I knew a few guys that weren't so lucky. But, for every suicide bomber, for every enemy insurgent, there were a thousand friendly faces in Kirkuk, and one of those faces belong to a teenager named <unk:Bruhem>. Now, Bruhem was one of a group of kids that would follow us around while we were on patrol. They'd ask us for candy, soda, magazines. They'd want to talk American pop culture, and I entertained them all the time. I loved having them around, but some of the guys in my squad not so much, because after all, we were in this war zone where enemy combatants didn't wear uniforms. But, in my heart, I knew these kids weren't terrorists. They were just trying to make the best out of a bad situation. Kind of like I was. Bruhem reminded me of my younger brother, <unk:Rory>, back home. At the time they were both the same age, 16 or 17, and they were both very mature for their age. Rory when he was growing up uh, he would follow my friends and I around, so by the time he was in high school he had this very adult sense of humor. And although he was four years younger than me he was one of my best friends. We did everything together. And, Bruhem had that maturity about him too, but for a different reason. Obviously, he grew up in a war zone, so by the time he was a teenager he'd experienced things that many of us will never experience. And I-I miss my brother a lot that year in Iraq, and I-I think that Bruhem filled this void for me, because he, he became like a little brother to me. But, while my brother was back home uh, you know, applying to colleges, going to prom, getting dumped by girls, doing things that teenagers do. Bruhem was working as a janitor on a military installation in a war zone, and like an idiot, I asked him, Why aren't you going to school? Couldn't that be a way out of here? And he looked at me and said, I don't have a school to go to. Ours was bombed out and it's been too dangerous to go back. He said that he was biding time until he was old enough to become an interpreter from the U.S. military because that's where the real money was. He said, You could make $200 a week. See. The U.S. military had this agreement with uh, Iraqi nationals that if they worked a certain amount of years as an interpreter when their contract was up they'd be given this special immigrant visa to resettle in the United States, but it was an incredibly dangerous job, and at the height of the war we were losing an average of one interpreter a day. But, Bruhem said that he understood the risks and that he was willing to do anything to help feed his family and to help end the war in Iraq. Now, as the deployment went on I learned a lot of things about this kid. We became really close. You know, I learned how he was um, a sole provider for his family in this house that didn't have electricity most days, it didn't have adequate plumbing, so something as simple as personal hygiene was this huge struggle. And, this broke my heart. I felt partially responsible because after all, I was a cog in this war machine that destroyed this kid's home country. I knew I couldn't do much, but I wanted to do something, so when I had a second I went down to the mini-mart on base and I bought him 20, maybe $30 worth of soap, shampoo, deodorant, toothpaste, water. Just the bare necessities, and the next time I saw him I presented him this box of toiletries and he looked at me with tears in his eyes like I had just handed him the keys to a brand new house. And it was an incredibly humbling experience. And, in that moment I realized that I wanted to see how he was living. I wanted to see this country from a different point of view. So, one day I snuck off base, and he gave me a tour of the city. Um, we hailed taxis, hitched rides, walked for miles, and all along the way he pointed out these historical landmarks. He told me about the Citadel that was built 2,000 years before Jesus was born. He pointed out the tomb of the prophet Daniel from the Bible. He explained that we were walking around in the oldest region in the history of human civilization, and I could tell how proud of his culture he was. It was incredible stuff. I told him that Campbell, California, the town I'm from is famous for inventing the fruit cup. <laugh> Um, towards the end of that day we went by a bizarre, this outdoor marketplace, and we stopped for fresh baked bread and kabobs, and I don't know if I'm romanticizing this meal in my head, but to this day I still think that, that may be one of the best meals that I ever had. And, I remember asking Bruhem how the bread was good even though it was so simple? And he looked at me and he rolled his eyes and he said, Because we invented bread. <laugh> Towards the end of my deployment Bruhem finally got his chance to be uh, an interpreter for the U.S. military. For me, this was bittersweet though, um, on one hand, he might be able to provide for his family, but on the other hand, I knew that he had just volunteered his own life. I knew had, that he had volunteered for his own death and that I was leaving him to die. But, there wasn't' anything I could do about it, and I wished him well, and I got on a plane back to America. Now, when I got home things were different. I was different. There was this ultra vigilant muscle memory that I have. I remember walking, you know, in downtown San Jose with my friends and I would look at rooftops and windows searching for snipers or I'd be at a gathering somewhere, I'd be at a restaurant and I would look at the torso of every single person that walked in the building just to make sure that they didn't have a, like a suicide vest on. It was just second nature at that point. And, living like that can be hard. It can make a person angry, and my behavior was straining all of my relationships. And, I decided that maybe I needed a change of scenery. So, I packed my bags and I moved to Phoenix, Arizona. Now, Phoenix isn't a place where I had any connections. I didn't have any relatives or any friends or family there. Um, I just did a little research and it was much cheaper than the Bay area, and it was sunny all year 'round, so it sounded great. I got to Phoenix, um, you know I started a job, I enrolled in sch… in college just to add some assemblance of normalcy into my life, but things didn't get better. In fact, they got worse, and over the next four or five years, you know, I struggled with my mental health, I struggled with drugs and alcohol, I couldn't keep a job because I was in and out of the court system, and I was even homeless for a period. But, in between weekends in jail and weekends in, in homeless shelters, I went to class. I was a good student. I-I ended up getting my college degree, and that opened some doors for me. I got a nice job, and things were looking up. And then one Saturday morning I woke up to a dozen missed phone calls and text messages, which I had thought was kinda odd and I called my mother back first because her name was the first and the last on the list. And when she picked up there was this fear in her voice that I'd never heard before, and when she was able to collect herself she explained to me that my younger brother, Rory, had been killed the night before in an attempted carjacking. At first, I didn't believe it, because things like that don't happen where I'm from, and ironically I had just purchased plane tickets to fly home to spend the holidays with my brother. Only now I flew home to bury him. I remember spending that Thanksgiving in a morgue. Then a few days later I spent my birthday staring at his fresh laid grave tombstone. That Friday when Rory was killed he was walking out of a grocery store with his best friend. You know, they were celebrating his new life. He had just gotten a new car, a new apartment, a new job. He was starting his adult life, and as he was sitting in his brand new BMW two men wearing ski masks, brandishing firearms ran up on him. They told him to get out, but for whatever reason, they didn't even give him a chance to comply, and one of the men shot Rory three times in the chest and face as his best friend watched in horror from the passenger seat. And I know these details because I watched it. I watched the high definition security camera footage during his killer's trial. I watched my brother take his last breathes, and it's something I can see every time I close my eyes. You know, I'd been through a lot in Iraq, you know, I survived suicide attacks and, and mortar attacks, and sniper attacks, but Rory's death caught me more off guard than any roadside bomb in Iraq ever could. I was destroyed. I decided that I should move home to be closer to my family, but before I could do that I'd have to go back to Arizona to pack up my apartment. When I landed in Arizona I got off the plane, I exited the terminal, and I remember thinking it was odd that the sky was gray and that it was pouring rain. I went straight down to the taxi stand and got on the first taxi I saw, and we were driving down the 202 and I wasn't feeling very conversational, but the taxi driver didn't know that. So, he started up that standard small talk. You know, What do you do? Where are you from? Why ya here? That sort of thing, and obviously I didn't want to talk about my brother's murder, so I half lied and said, Oh you know, I just got out of the military a few years ago. I-I got this new job in California. And when I said military he asked if I'd been anywhere special, and I said sure I'd been all over the world. Um, I was in Iraq for a year. And, when I said Iraq his tone changed a little bit, and he said, I'm from Iraq, and he said, Where in Iraq were you stationed, and I said, In the northeast in this city called Kirkuk. And, he paused, and he said, I'm from Kirkuk. And just as soon as the conversation started it was over. And I knew something was wrong, and I was thinking, What just happened? Did, you know, did I harm one of his loved ones intentionally or unintentionally? Or, maybe he was like really anti-war and, you know if he was could I blame him? And we sat there in silence for miles and I could feel him staring at me in his rear view mirror and I was trying to avoid eye contact by looking out my own window, and it was at that, that moment that I saw that he passed our exit and now I was terrified. I told him that he missed the exit, and he didn't respond and just took the next exit. And when he got off we went down a few blocks and he just pulled the car over to the side of the road. And, now the red flags were going off. I didn't know what he was thinking, but I could see him gripping his steering wheel, working up the guts to do something. What he wanted to do I didn't know, but I-I didn't want to be there to find out, so I grabbed my backpack, I kicked open the door, but before I could get all the way out of the taxi he grabbed my leg and he turned around and said, Hey Dylan. Do you remember me? It's me Bruhem. <laugh> And, I looked at him, probably like you're looking at me right now, and I just didn't understand what was going on, but he sat a foot taller, you know, h-his voice was deeper, his English was better, he didn't have that goofy bowl cut, but 7500 miles away from Iraq there was this kid who had saved my life a lifetime ago. We got out of the car and we were hugging and sobbing in the pouring rain like a scene in the Notebook or something. <laugh> And he explained to me that when he, when I left Iraq he was an interpreter for four years and he finished his contract and got his visa and they asked him where he wanted to resettle on. He said he didn't know, but he wanted to go where the weather was like Iraq. So, they sent him to Phoenix, Arizona. <laugh> I'd learned a lot of things about survival in the military, and there's a, a segment of training, it's POW training, and one of the things they tell you is sometimes the pain can be unbearable and life can look pretty grim, but you've got to look for these glimmers of hope to keep you going, to keep you going that next day. I think that, that day on the side of the road in Arizona was my glimmer of hope. I lost one brother and I got another one back. Thank you. That was Dylan Park. Dylan and Bruhem eventually lost touch. Dylan believes Bruhem's returned to Iraq and contacting him has proved difficult. The Kirkuk Regional Airbase where Dylan was stationed was handed over to the Iraqis when the war ended, but when ISIS took control of Kirkuk the Iraqi military abandoned it and Kurdish forces moved in. In 2017, the Iraqi National Army retook control, and the hope now is ISIS is on its last legs. Coming up two more stories. A family waits for news from the front lines in Afghanistan, and we'll hear a birds eye account of D Day. That's when The Moth Radio Hour continues. The Moth Radio Hour is produced by Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole, Massachusetts, and presented by the Public Radio Exchange, PRX.org. The Moth is supported by PBS presenting an all-new season of We'll Meet Again. Join Executive Producer, Ann Curry, as she seeks to reunite people who met during pivotal moments in history. From the Vietnam War, escaping Cuba, and the rise of The Women's Rights Movement. Experience the personal stories of those who were there and their search for the person whose kindness and bravery helped them survive these transformational events. We'll Meet Again, tune it or stream starting Tuesday, November 13th at 8 / 7 Central. Only on PBS. The Moth is supported by Squarespace. With Squarespace, you can tell your own story by making your own website. Whether you have a funny blog, a new creative product or service, or an upcoming special event. Squarespace makes it easy to showcase your story with beautiful templates from world-class designers that you can customize with just a few clicks. They have all the tools and the analytics to get started, and with Squarespace, you can make it yourself. Head to Squarespace.com/moth for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch use the offer code MOTH to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. <unk:edited> This is The Moth Radio Hour from PRX. I'm Meg Bowles. For members of the military who are deployed, often there're friends and family back home anxiously awaiting their return. Our next storyteller is Franny Civitano. Her brother joined the Army on his 18th birthday. She shared her story at a Moth Grandslam at The Music Hall of Williamsburg in Brooklyn. Here's Franny Civitano live at The Moth. My mom joked that my brother enlisted in the Army to piss her off. That is because uh, when I was 18, and my brother was 15 our dad died. I moved to college three days later, but my brother was left with the aftermath of a four person family that almost overnight shrunk down by two people. For my mom and my brother this was a really rough few years, so as soon as he graduated from his school he enlisted. One of the first things that I learned during my brother's first deployment was that only about 1% of the American population serves in the Armed Forces. And, for me, that was a kind of loneliness that I had no idea to expect until I was in it. It was something that gnawed at me every time my phone rang or I went on the internet or I was having fun and for a moment I forgot that Afghanistan even existed, because how should I be able to exist if I'm not thinking about him 100% of the time. Because, what if I stop thinking about him, and something terrible happens, but I, I didn't want to pay attention. I did not follow the news, I didn't setup Google alerts. I didn't want to know. I didn't like calling home, because I knew that my mom would want to talk about my brother. She dove head first into this. She setup all the Google alerts, she read every book on war, she made a Facebook group to talk to other Army moms. She called me one night when I was at a game night in Bushwick, and my heart leapt into my throat. I panicked. My mother does not call me. She texts a lot, but I call her. I picked up the phone and she said, He's fine. Your brother is fine, but I burst into tears. She said, I just want you to know in case you saw something on the news, your brother's Army base was attacked and seven soldiers died, but he's fine. Your brother is fine. I was angry after that call. Angry that I wasn't scared and upset before she called, but now I couldn't stop shaking. Angry that our Settlers of Catan game was ruined. <laugh> Angry that I felt so guilty for not wanting to think about it. The Army invited my mom and me to come to ft Campbell, which is in between Kentucky and Tennessee, to join other families for a meeting on how to welcome your soldier home from war. So, we made a weekend of it. Our first weekend trip together. We got a hotel in downtown Nashville, we try on cowboy boots, we toured an old print press shop. On the base, we walked into this sunlit meeting room ready to take notes and ask all the questions. The room was mostly filled with girls my age or younger, who were either pregnant or had recently had babies. The officer who was leading the meeting started off by saying he was glad we were all there, because our guys coming home had, had a particularly difficult deployment. They had lost 48 soldiers in their Battalion alone. But, we realized quickly that this meeting was not for us. It was focused on the wives, who were instructed to dress cute and give their guy sex whenever they wanted it. We were frustrated that we had come all this way and didn't get any answers. So, my mom and I got drunk together for the first time in a bar in Nashville alone with the band and the bartender. Just talking, not as mother and daughter, but as people, as ladies drinking in a bar. I told her about stories from college that I was too embarrassed to tell her about at the time, and she just rolled her eyes and laughed. I learned that what I didn't know when my mom called me that day to tell me my brother was fine was that she had been woken up early in the morning by an alert on her phone and found out that there was an attack. And then she spent the next 15 hours sitting on her couch, looking out her front window, expecting to see an unmarked car and two officers pull up and tell her that her son had died. Our fear was not that different, but she was wearing hers like an exposed wound, and I was trying to bury it. All she wanted, at the end of every day, was to be able to say, He's fine. Your brother is fine. That she was thinking about him and worried 100% of the time, and I was so consumed with this guilt of not wanting to think about him and not wanting to worry about him that it didn't occur to me that there was another person in the world, the only other person in the world, who really understood what it was like to have him gone, and she was sitting right in front of me. She was my mother, and that yes, maybe we were both still lonely, but at least we were lonely together. My brother came home, after two tours in Afghanistan alive. He's different in good and sad ways. I hate that he was 19 and that he saw the things he saw and did the things he did. Is he fine? I don't know. I, most of the time I think that he is. I hope he is. And I-I will never understand what it was like for him over there, and I don't think that he will ever understand what it was like for us here. I worry about him in a different, more manageable, more normal way. Is he dating? Had he taken that mid-term yet? And, I may always be asking myself if he's okay, but today, at the end of the day, I think he's fine. We're all fine. Thank you. That was Franny Civitano. Franny lives in New York, and works at that New York City Ferry Service. She's also growing her wedding but, where she officiates, as well as, plans people's big day. Her brother is now a Drill Sergeant in the Army Reserve. Franny worries less about his safety these days, and more that, given the issues in the world, he might be called upon to deployed again. But, for the most part, Franny, and her family are all fine, even better than fine. Our last story comes from Jerry Neal. He's shared his story live on stage in his hometown of Kansas City, Missouri. My story starts on the east side of Kansas City. I was born in 1921. Okay you guys, you figure it out. Don't ask too much from me. <laugh> The first decade of my life, the 20s, was a very, very fine opulent period. I remembered it as a small kid how great life was. Parties, laughing, dinners, and so forth, but that decade turned into 30s, which completely opposite, became horrible. My grandfather, who had been a entrepreneurial type of guy, had a lot of businesses, drugs stores and so forth. In the 30s was reduced to one drug store at 18th and Jackson Avenue. That was a store that our whole family lived in, worked in, and lived out of. And, I remember, many, many times, working there, watching my grandfather work. Papa we called him. There be a man come in, a lady come in, and Can I talk to Doc? And my grandfather was a physician trained pharmacist. And so he would come out and they would kind of lean over the counter and explain their problem. And Papa would get… turn around and go back to the prescription counter, and start compounding a liquid, a powder, a pill. And, he'd bring it out and explain to the person what do to in order to help solve the malady that they had. And, that person would say, Doc, I don't have any money. I've been out of a job for a year. Can you just put that on a tip? so, he'd write a little piece of paper, open the cash register, and stick it in there, close that drawer, and knowing right then he probably would never see any money for that. He did this time after time, after time, after time, and I learned an important lesson.it's important to help your friends and your neighbors. 1938 I graduated from East High School. I was looking for work, and times were getting tough in Europe. And, Asia and Japan was moving down the island chains and Hitler was taking over one country after another. And the war clouds were obviously heavy and this country was becoming very, very concerned about being involved. And so, fear was setting in, but also a lot of patriotism. So, I was driving around and I f-f-f-heard an announcement on the <inaudible> about how I might possible pass a test and get in the Air Force, which I did. The Air Force, the Army Air Force accepted me for pilot training. Now you can't imagine me, this young kid, wet behind the ears be at pilot training. I'd never seen, been close to an airplane. The only plane I'd ever seen was in newsreels. But any event, I got my orders to go to San Antonio, Texas to start my pilot training, and I remember that very, very cold January morning where I went down to this beautiful Grand Station that we have here. And I walked across the lobby, and as I approached the stairs going down to the loading platform, I looked around to these three ladies that were with, behind me. My mother, my grandmother, and my aunt, who had raised me, was my nurture and my love. And I turned around with my little bag and I looked at 'em and I walked down the stairs and climbed on the train, and just this deep sense of melancholy, just sunk into me. For the first time in my life I'm alone. Totally alone. Went on, rode the train to San Antonio, started my year of training as a pilot, which a culminated in a second lieutenant commission, but an aeronautical rating as a pilot. And, they gave me orders to go to Mountain Home, Idaho to place where I would not become a B-24 pilot. And, this was a huge airplane, and it, and that was the place I got all my crew, my other pilot, my navigator, and my bombardier, my engineer, radioman, and gunners, and we became a family as we trained. We soon received our movement orders, as they called them, to move to England to a base in East Anglia, which is where we would be pursuing our missions going over Europe. So, as we traveled, and started traveling out of Mountain Home and went to Lincoln, Nebraska we picked up a brand new B-24 just like going and picking up a new automobile. New smell and everything. It was wonderful. <laugh> As we started down across Florida and then Puerto Rico, and so forth I… Every once in a while we pick a little piece of paper out of a place on the airplane, a little note from somebody like a worker on the line that said, Good luck guys. And we read those things all the way across the ocean. Well, boy did we have a beautiful navigator. Only thing he had to guide us across the ocean, South Atlantic, was a sexton. An old type ship sexton. No GPS, no electronic navigation instruments. Just looking at the stars and taking us across he got you there. East Anglia is a little <inaudible> in England that faces Europe, the continent. And from that base, which was all of our bases, 8th Air force bases were there in that little area. We started flying bombing missions. The first two missions, the first, that B-24 I picked up in Lincoln, we came back so shot up the plane could not be flown anymore. They put it in what they called the bone yard. They gave me another B-24, and the second mission same thing came back. Brought us back, but the plane was gone. And, I started thinking, because everybody was talking about it. At that time our tour was called 25 missions, but our loss rate was 12, 15% per mission. So, it didn't take a great mathematician to figure out there's no way we're gonna make 25 missions. <laugh> So, so what we did is we adopted an attitude of we're already dead. Forget about it. Just go ahead and do what's ya's got to do. It kind of worked. <laugh> Well, I well remember that day, the 6th of June 1944. The orderly came in and work us up at 2:00 in the morning, which was normal for us as we prepared for a mission for the day. We got up, dressed, went up to the mess-hall to get some breakfast. I never ate breakfast. I just couldn't have food on my stomach, but I did sit over in a chair in the corner, listening to a radio big band music. 1940s music I loved. And then all of the sudden was this song String of Pearls by Glen Miller, and my tears just started rolling down my cheeks. Deep homesickness. I don't know if anybody's ever had homesickness, but it's there. It's bad if you feel it. Anyway, they picked us up in the truck to take us to the briefing room. That tears dried up. Forgot all about it, and we got in this room, about 250 guys, just like me, waiting to see what the mission of the day's gonna be. These people were sitting around chatting, smoking cigarettes, telling jokes, stories. Others with their head down between their knees, morose. Different emotions from different people. Then our Commanding Officer comes down through the back door, down the aisle, toward the platform, which is… to tell us what the mission was. And here he is walking down there with his aides, walking down was a full bird Colonel that we call the Old Man. He's 25 years old. <laugh> He gets up on the platform, and they roll this big curtain back and there's a picture of Europe. And, right there, right there, D Day. We'd heard about it. We knew it was coming. We didn't know when or where, but there it is. And, we're gonna be a part of it. I'm going to be a part of it. We took off across south of apart from England, across the English Channel at about 10,000 ft to our target in France, which was Khan. And as I looked up that channel to my left I, and I had to be real careful, because I was flying formation, so I kinda glance up and I'd look back where I was goin, glance up. I saw, from my seat in the airplane, 7,000 ships in my eyesight, in the channel, all moving toward the continent. I thought, My gosh. Has anybody ever seen 7000 ships? <laugh> That's a lot of ships. <laugh> Alright. I thought, Well you know I could just walk across the water and never get my feet wet. <laugh> Anyway, we moved on, got to that target, Khan, where our target for the day and the purpose of the mission was to go destroy a major road junction, because intelligence had told us they were dying, German panther division sitting back there waiting to find out where to go. So, our purpose was to make it as difficult for 'em to move as is possible. Well, we couldn't see the target. We had a solid cloud undercast, because bad weather had been affecting that whole part of the country. And so, we circled, and we circled, and we circled, and we finally… The Commanding Officer said, Back to base boys. We got to get more fuel. So, as we started back to base, and got back over the English Channel my engineer was, Hey. Hey. Hey we're just about out of gas. We're just getting… We're just about… Hey we're getting low. So, I prepared the crew to bail out, and as we got over the, about the middle of the English Channel, about 10,000 feet all four engines of this huge airplane, about 7,000 horsepower, they stopped. Click, click, click, and the plane immediately starting, and I had to push the wheel, abruptly, to that floor of the firewall to put the plane in a dive. Else wise, we would spinned out, spin out. So, as we started diving, totally quiet. No noise, just the rushing wind as we picked up speed. Faster and faster. I looked back over my shoulder to see if the crew had… They all jumped. They were clear, but I think, Oh my gosh. I still got all these bombs on board. Sitting back on me, there's 10, 500 pound bombs. <laugh> Well, I had to fort-fortunately our training was very good. We had a lever down at the base. I pulled that lever, which pulled the pins out of the bomb bay doors. The doors dropped off. All 10 bombs dropped out of their racks, and because by this time I was so close to the water, they didn't arm. They just went plunk, plunk, plunk, plunk, in the water. But, just as I was pulling that lean out to try to pull it out flat and level. Right in front of me, just like God placed it there, was a gravel bar, a rock bar right out in the middle of the channel. Exactly where I needed to sit the plane down. <laugh> I had, I had no control over it. That was where the plane was gonna be. <laugh> So, I pulled it out, and as I hit that rock it started going across that rock <inaudible>. I'm going like this, and the bomb bay door's out, and the bomb bay's open, then it's like a giant shovel. It's picking up rock and gravel. <laugh> The whole rear end of that B-24 breaks off, and I leave it. I see all four engines, plink, plink, plink, plink out of the wings. <laugh> The greenhouse, the nose is gone, and I feel the fuselage underneath the seat. Oh, it's coming around. It comes up closer, and closer. <laugh> Then we stop. The other pilot, and the navigator, we all… we three of us crawled out on the… and sat down. We didn't say one word to each other or anything. We're in stupor. <laugh> We didn't even know for sure we checked arms, our legs, so. <laugh> In a few hours the English came and picked us up and took us back to English coast, and I called the base, and they sent an ambulance down, because I wanted a tour of the mash units on the south of England to find out where my crew was. I only found one man. Six of my guys that I became close to, very close, like family. They're gone. I, they should be alive, and I should be dead. So, I thought about that, and you know it was a defining moment. We have defining moments and that was one of them. I thought, I was raised in a fine family, and moral family, but not spiritual, but now I'm spiritual. <laugh> Thank you. Jerry Neal served in World War two as a B-17 and B-24 pilot in the 8th Air Force 490th Bomb Group 849th Squadron, and he was awarded the Distinguish Flying Cross. After the war, Jerry remained in the Air Force Reserves, serving in the administrative positions. He retired after 20 years as a Captain. At the age of 97, he's still serving, volunteering as a mentor to entrepreneurs and business owners. Jerry also sent us some amazing photos. You can find those on our website. That's it for this episode. We hope you'll join us again next time for The Moth Radio Hour. Your host this hour was Meg Bowles. Meg also directed the stories in the show. The rest of the Moth directorial staff includes Catherine Burns, Sarah Haberman, Sarah Austin Jenness, and Jenifer Hixson. Production support from Timothy Lu Lee. Moth stories are true as remembered and affirmed by the storytellers. Our theme music is by the Drift. Other music in the hour from Stellwagen Symphonette, Moondog, and Glen Miller. You can find links to all the music we use at our website. The Moth Radio Hour is produced by me, Jay <unk:Alision> with Vikki <unk:Merrick> at Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole, Massachusetts. This hour was produced with funds from The National Endowment For The Arts. The Moth Radio Hour is presented by PRX. For more about our podcast, for information on pitching us your own story, and everything else go to our website, themoth.org. 

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Enjoy free shipping, and every fourth order free with subscription. Visit GilletteonDemand.com. From PRX, this is The Moth Radio Hour. I'm Catherine Burns from The Moth, and I'll be your host this time. The Moth is about true personal stories. We encourage people to talk about the biggest moments of their lives, the moments that really made them, them. We record the stories and play the best of them for you here every week. We have three stories this hour. A young woman is determined to create a perfect life for her children no matter what the cost. A little boy's dreamy childhood comes to screeching halt in the North Carolina highway, and a gift gone wrong interrupts a madcap poker game in Georgia. Our first story is from Joyce Maynard. She told this story in the show we called, We Can't Help It: Stories About Compulsions. Here's Joyce Maynard live at The Moth. <cheer> In the family where I grew up, no blood was ever shed. At least not the kind that was visible. Um, in all the years, uh, of living under my parents' roof, I never broke a bone. Um, my mother and father never at one time had to take me to the emergency room, and I strongly suspect that, um, we never had to, uh, buy a second box of Band-Aids. And the reason for that was pretty, uh, simple. My parents were spectacularly protective and, and hovered over me to make sure that no pain or physical injury should occur. I live in the state of New Hampshire, but never set my feet into ski boots. Um, I don't think a piece of athletic equipment ever crossed our threshold. My mother made sure that I didn't enter the water for swimming until a full hour after eating, and my father stood over me, and brushed away the mosquitoes before they landed. <laugh> But every night at 6:00, um, he climbed the stairs to our attic, and took out the vodka, and through the night he drank and painted. And sometimes late in the night, he summoned me to his attic studio where he painted beautiful lyric landscapes of the British Columbia of his youth as a painter, and expounded to me with poetic eloquence on the sacrifice that he had made of giving up the life of an artist to be a parent. Um, and in the morning we never talked about it. Holidays were particularly stressful time in our family, um, with a particular amount of alcohol. More than one Christmas, my father, uh, threw the tree across the floor. Um, my mother was gone surprisingly often, and when she was, it was left to me to hide the car keys. And maybe because of that, although I grew up to have the, um, the life of a certain level of artistic expression that had eluded my two, um, enormously artistically gifted parents, the goal that I found most elusive and wonderful was to be part of a happy family. And I believed that my best shot of having happy relatives was to give birth to them. <laugh> I married quite young at 23, an artist. Um, and though I would come to realize over the years that we had surprisingly little in common, um, we did both share a passion, a creative passion although he was a painter and I was a writer. I think we both felt that there was no, uh, creative undertaking more thrilling, and potentially fulfilling than to make and raise children, and we got right to it. Um, I, I think one of the things that I loved about having babies was this sense that here was a person who was still perfect. A person with a clean slate, and I so wanted to keep her that way. I actually had none of my parents tendencies towards protection for physical and injury. I could even have been called a somewhat negligent mother. I was, um, happy to see toddlers breath over my babies, and didn't feel a particular need to wash my hands or worry about germs because I knew that there were greater dangers in the world, and the greatest dangers to me were the dangers of, um, emotional pain, and, um, the disappointment of failed dreams. I think my daughter was 18 months old when she got chicken pox, and I stood over her to make sure that she, she was so beautiful and she had such beautiful black hair, and I knew that if you scratched the scabs, there would be no hair that would grow, and I couldn't yet explain to an 18 month old not to scratch her scabs so I just guarded her so carefully, but I just guarded her so carefully, but I missed on one, and I saw suddenly this tiny little microscopic dot on the top of her head where I realized that she had scratched a scab, and just the thought that there was going to be this one hair that would not grow brought me to tears. I wanted so many things for her, and one, that I, I had not had myself as a child was a sibling who really adored her. And, um, uh, it was the first of the increasing number of great battles with my husband to provide her with one, and for four years we fought about it because he wanted to live the life of an artist, and I wanted to live the life of a member of a happy family if it killed us. <laugh> And so for… It took four years, but my son Charlie was born, and two years later, um, my son Willy. Um, I was always… I, I fanatically, uh, compulsive, uh, protector of my children's magical childhood, but never more so than when holidays and birthdays came around. Um, I, I never would have bought a store-bought cake, and I, I created extraordinary three-day festivals for their birthdays, scavenger hunts with, with, uh, poems, clues, and iambic pentameter, and puppet shows with, with music, um, composed for the events, and, and Christmas, uh, elaborate Christmas, Valentine's Day. I, um… The entire month of February, we, we cleared our, um, our dining room table and set out all the art supplies, uh, filled with glitter and every conceivable kind of paint, and to make amazing Valentine's, and, and the entire month of December as I say to Christmas. And I never went to Toys R' Us. I wasn't really interested in just a lot of stuff. I wanted to provide for my children the kinds of objects, the kinds of gifts that might really have been made in Santa's workshop. Um, and to do this I once… Um, I, I searched the entire East Coast for a ventriloquist puppet for my son Willie, and I ended up driving 200 miles to find it. Um, my father had recently died and left me, um, a sum total of $500 in his will and my, my husband had it all earmarked by snow tires, but I went out one day, and bought a $500 doll house. That was another of our grand battles. Of course when there are… Uh, and, and I should say that, that he was increasingly, uh, appalled and disgusted by the, the display of these Christmases which, um, he really stepped aside from so that, that, uh, one morning he came in, Christmas morning and saw the array of items which I think that year included a department store mannequin that I found in business department store in Northern New Hampshire. He insisted that half of the items be removed from the room, and our, our children, um, I suppose did not have an entirely magical December 25th that year. Um, well, of course, one of the problems of providing magical objects in your child's life is that you then must protect that they not get lost. Um, and I had recognized by this time that although blood could be dripping from my veins, and I wouldn't notice their pain, I sensed on my nerve endings, and of course when that's the case, you do everything you can to protect against their pain so every time a Barbie came into the room, into, our, our lives, the first thing I thought was, Guard those shoes. <laugh> Uh, my, my son's one year for Christmas, I… They got the Playmobil pirate ship, and of all the elaborate rigging and pirates, and, and, and little items on the treasury chest, and little coins in the pirate ship, the one particular thing that my son Charlie loved best was this little gold sword, and I knew so well the heartbreak that could come, that I said to him very specifically when, when we went out to the, the station wagon one day, Please, don't take the sword with you, but, but, um, he, he evidently took the sword because about 20 minutes later, I heard this gasp in the back of the… From the back of the station wagon, and, and I knew that the sword had fallen out the window. For the next hour-and-a-half, I circled a stretch of highway with my high beams on. I did find the sword, although I was almost struck by an 18 -wheeler retrieving it. Um, Halloween. My husband, um, perhaps understandably have absented himself more and more, and, um, and of the many things that I could provide with, um, with my prodigious energies, parenting energies, I could not provide a father who would always be around when I wanted him to, and he was more and more chillingly familiarly often his studio painting, but more and more we did things alone. I wanted their life to be big, bigger than mine had been. Um, I… We didn't have a lot of money. We had very little money and, and so it was… And I would never have supposed that I could take my children to Europe much as I would have loved it, and then one day, I saw an ad for a weekend in London for $100, and so I thought that I can afford. And I bought three tickets for them, and then one for me, and we headed out to London, and I told them that they could each have one object in London, and my son, Charlie choose these wonderful, uh, brightly colored leather juggling balls. We went down, into the London tube and Charlie began… He couldn't wait, and he began to juggle with the juggling balls, and I, knowing so well, all the dangers that could happen, said, No, Charlie. Don't juggle in the tube, but it was too late. One of the juggling balls fell into the pit, and I jumped in after it. And that was the moment as my daughter stood on the edge of the subway platform screaming for me to climb out that I realized that I was becoming an insane mother. That mother's day, I was 35 years old. I got a call that my mother had been diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumor, and I was going of course to be with her for what proved to be the last weeks of her life. And before I left home, I sat the children down, and I, I explained to them what had happened, and my youngest son said, Is grandma going to die? And I said yes. Then he asked the next question which was an even harder one, that one… Whose answer was more painful to deliver, And will you ever die? And once again, I had to say yes. And then came the third question, And will I ever die? And I had to say, Well, not for a very long time. In fact, my mother's was not the only death that summer. My marriage also ended, and it was probably time for that to happen. And I found that although my, my grief was extreme, it paled beside the extraordinary sorrow over having to inflict this pain of the news to my children. Um, and in fact it was the last experience I think that my husband and I could truly share together our shared sorrow over telling them that news. And we brought them into the living room, and I can still see them very clearly five, seven, 11. Willie, Charlie, and Audrey, sitting on the couch, looking as if they expected news of another great adventure coming up. Um, and we told them instead that we were not going to live together as a family anymore. And each of them responded in their very different ways so like themselves. Audrey, the oldest, who had learned by now that I felt her pain and wanted to spare me that so she didn't show it made a stiff little smile, and said, I think I'll go watch Cosby now. Willie, the youngest, who never spared anybody anything, he was five, stood up and let out an animal moan, a whale, a sound I had never heard come out of him before or since, thank God, and flung himself against the wall with the force of a grown man, and said, You mean you'll be divorced for all my life? Charlie was seven, got up silently, and went into the kitchen. The table was as always covered with art supplies and he took out the colored pencils and he began to draw. And I later saw he had drawn almost as if he was drawing it in blood, a heart, not like the Valentine's of our February festivals but inch by inch so… Centimeter by centimeter so painstakingly. And then after he drew the heart and shaded it with little shadow marks behind it, he made a line like a piece of picture wire, like, like the heart was a, a picture, and then he made a little dot in the center like the picture was hanging on the wall, and then my second grader wrote for his writer mother, and his artist father the words, Love is the best art of all. And I think that was the moment that I knew the foolishness of ever supposing that I could protect my children from pain, and the folly of the ways that I had attempted to do so. That was 16 years ago. Since then, um, many injuries have been incurred. My children for many years traveled back and forth between our two houses with their belongings always in brown paper bags. They lived through car accidents and girlfriends breaking up with them and boyfriends breaking up with them, and a case of malaria, and a trip to Africa, because they continued to be adventurers. They just went further and further away. The thing is that I have discovered that although I failed abysmally at protecting my children from pain, I am in fact related by blood to three amazingly happy and well-adjusted human beings. Um, and what I believe now is that as impossible as it is to spare our children pain, the real task before a parent is to raise them so that they will be strong enough to survive. Thanks. That was Joyce Maynard. Her latest novel is called After Her. The film, Labor Day is based on her novel of the same name. I recently spoke with Joyce over the phone at her home in Costa Rica to talk about how telling stories affects her writing. I used to think of my writing as just kind of my way of getting in the back door of what I really wanted to which was up on a stage connecting with an audience. Um, and actually, although I love what I do, and I feel really extraordinarily lucky to have gotten to do, to do this all the years that I have, um, my one complaint about being a, a writer for The Page is that I don't get to see and hear the response of a reader to my work. Um, so, at The Moth I did, and I could hear people laugh, and I could hear people gasp sometimes. Um, I also learned a lot. I could feel when I… You can feel when you're losing somebody. You can feel when you need to pull him back. Um, it, it's, it's a very immediate form of storytelling that actually has informed my writing for The Page as well, and not just my, my memoir writing but, but absolutely my fiction. We talked about how rarely writers get to experience firsthand the reactions of their audience. Back a million years ago, when I a reporter in New York City, I remember one time riding the subway to Times Square and seeing somebody open up the New York Times with the story that I have written, and I was looking over her shoulder, and I was so excited to watch her read it. That's so cool. Um, and I'm sure the first time reading it would have died as she knew she was sitting next to the author. <laugh> Yeah. I don't know. I think there were probably greater thrills in her life. But, but for me, um, to be able to hear laughter, the most of to hear laughter. Part of what makes your writing so brilliant is your willingness to be vulnerable, and like very open on The Page, did you even feel more vulnerable being on stage with that direct experience with the audience? The more willing you are to, to expose your flaws and failings, I would just say your humanness, the, the more you will, the more I will relate to an audience. The more audience will relate to me. So, I wanted to ask for listens who I know will wanna know which is, is how your, how are your children doing? Give us an update. Well, it, it's pretty easy to locate them. Um, one of them appears on a, on television every, every Tuesday night as a heartthrob, um… Bad boy with a heart of gold. My son is, um, now in his late 20s, and he's on a show called Hart of Dixie. And my other son is a, um, is a DJ known as Captain Planet. You can find him on YouTube spinning, um, really great beats. So, yes, they're, they're all grown up. Um, my daughter still lives on our old farm in New Hampshire, and, um, works as a, as a counselor for very troubled kids there. So, um, they've survived their childhood. To hear more of my conversation with Joyce Maynard, go to themoth.org. While you're there pitch us your own story. In the moment, a forgotten freezer full of dear meat makes a surprise guest appearance at a poker game. The Moth Radio Hour is produced by Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole, Massachusetts and presented by the Public Radio Exchange, prx.org. The Moth is supported by Boston Beer Company. Of all the beers Sam Adams has ever brewed, they say Boston Lager is their all time favorite. Not only has Boston Lager stood the test of time, but it also helped launched the whole craft beer revolution. That's because Boston Lager is full flavored, rich and complex with the distinctive balance of spicy hops, sweet roasted malts, and a smooth finish. Sam Adams is so proud that there are so many beers out there today, but there's nothing quite like the taste of an original. Sam Adams Boston Lager. Legal Boston Beer Company, Boston Mass. Savor responsibly. Support for The Moth comes from our friends at Rocket Mortgage by Quicken Loans who are excited to introduce their own new RateShield Approval. If you're in the market to buy a home, Quicken Loans will lock your rate for up to 90 days while you shop, and here's the crucial part. If rates go up, your rates stay the same, but if rates go down, your rate also drops. Either way, you win. It's the kind of thinking you'd expect from America's largest mortgage lender. To get started, go to Rocketmortgage.com/moth. RateShield Approval only valid on certain 30 -year purchase transactions. Additional conditions or exclusions may apply based on Quicken Loans data and comparison to public data records. Equal housing lender, licensed in all 50 states. nmlsconsumeraccess.org number 3030. This is The Moth Radio Hour from PRX. I'm Catherine Burns. Our next story is from the founder of The Moth, George Dawes Green. He grew up on st Simons Island, Georgia. If you've never been there, it's a magical place. This may sounds like a southern cliche but every house seems like it's been there for at least 100 years. The Spanish moss hanging from big trees, and a feeling that nobody is in a hurry to get anywhere. There must be jerks who live there, but in my mini trips, I've never met a single one, just fine, funny people that you'd wanna spend a long summer evening with. Here's George Dawes Green live at the Great Hall of the Cooper Union. <cheer> Hello. Well, I used to play a lot of poker like the house of my oldest friend, Wanda Bullard. On st Simons Island, off the coast of Georgia, I loved those nights. I would pull-up on Wanda's driveway and look through her dining room window, and I could see her in there setting up for poker. And she'd be cleaning the cat food off the dining room table, and then cleaning the cats off the dining room table, and then setting out her lucky Chinese coins, and her lucky shark's teeth, and her lucky bottle caps, and her lucky astray from south of the border. And, and when she became intent, she, she would always put her tongue like this. So, even though she was 60 years old, she looked a little like Charlie Brown from the comics, and my friend, Larry would be there, in his black cowboy hat, and his hooded cobra eyes shuffling, reshuffling the deck, and I love these people, and I'd go into that house of junk, and Wanda would just light up, and say, Well, hello, there. That's really her voice. <laugh> And she, she, she'd give me a hug which was always a little awkward because she came up about here on me. And then, you know, she was a teacher. She'd, she'd been a teacher for, for 40 years. Her students loved her, everybody loved Wanda, um, because she was so kind and generous. And I recognized those qualities, but what really drew me to Wanda was her meanstreak. You'd give that girl a glass of Bourbon, and the insults would start to fly. And in fact, these poker nights were just orgies of insults, all of us. Me, and mom, my 90 -year-old mother would sometimes come by, and Larry, and Wanda would just sit there all night and play poker, and insult each other. Wanda would say, You're a weasel, and your hand is pitiful. And you're especially ugly tonight. I would say, Larry, you look like a cobra tonight. And Larry would say, George, you look like a New York pimp tonight in that get up. And Wanda would say, I can't show you this hand, this card right now, but when I do show it to you, I promise you, you'll remember it for the rest of your life. Your sorry life. <laugh> And guarding this little circle of insults was this ring of just pure blissful chaos. Wanda's cats, she had like six cats, and all night long, they'd be jumping up and down from the table and scattering the poker pod. And her dogs, she had these two big ugly hound dogs that would be howling all night. Anytime, anybody ever came by, and they were always strange people coming in and out of that house. There was one particular character named Frankie Stomp. Frankie was a drunk, and a good old boy, and he loved to hunt. Actually, he loved to drunk hunt. <laugh> And one day, he shouted, Dear, out on the Sea Palms Golf Course. It… On Sunday afternoon from the window of his pickup truck while it was stopped on Federico Road for a red light. <laugh> And then he pulled over, and he got out and he field dress that deer right there on the fairway in front of all these astonished golfers. <laugh> But there was one friend of ours, ms Lucy Mayo who did not care for Frankie Stomp. She was this tiny, tiny woman and she was one of those people who always is aware of the invisible world all around her. She is always aware of the doings of ghosts and demons, and angels. And she hated Frankie Stomp because she hated hunting, and she thought that, that freezer was full of the, of the spirits of all those murdered deers. She thought it would bring a curse on the house, and she said, It was an abomination and she was rolling on about this, Well, we were trying to play poker. And, and until, until Wanda finally couldn't take it anymore and she said, I don't care. Shut up and play. <laugh> And then it was Christmas. And this was just a couple of Christmases ago. And Larry got Wanda one of those singing Santa Clauses, um, that you get in K-Mart, and I got Wanda one of those singing trophy fish that you get in K-Mart. She really loved all this crap, and Lucy Mayo got her, uh, one of those Roombas, you know, those little robotic vacuum cleaners. Um, and that was bouncing around all Christmas day in the kitchen, and the cats were all hissing at it. And the dogs were barking at the cats. And the fish were up on the walls sneaking away. And, and Wanda was saying, I own this hand. Put some money on the put. Put your money in you little cowards. <laugh> And it was… This was just about the best Christmas ever. <laugh> And I remember one time I went outside to make a call, and then, uh, I was coming back in and, uh, I looked in to the window, and I saw Larry, and my mom, and Wanda sitting there. And I began to think maybe I was detached too much to these people, and so I told myself that nothing lasts forever. I reminded myself that I might well come here one day, and Larry would be gone, and my mom would be gone, and Wanda would be gone, and the house would be empty. And I told myself these things, as I was to inoculate myself against any future grief, and I did succeed in making myself really sad for about 10 minutes until we started playing poker again, and then the poker was just so amazing that day, that after everybody else was gone, Larry, and Wanda, and I just stayed there and kept playing poker and laughing. We played all night. We couldn't stop. We played until 5:00 pm the next day. <laugh> And after 24 hours of poker, I staggered out of that house, and my eyeballs were, were actually rattling around inside my skull, and, and Wanda shouted after me, You're a quitter. <laugh> And then a few months passed, and Larry went into the pantry to get something. I don't know what, but he happened to looked down and he noticed that when Lucy Mayo had plugged in the Roomba home base she had unplugged the freezer. And she had done that on Christmas day, and now it was the end of February. And Larry called us in, me and Wanda, and he pointed at the freezer, and said solemnly, Don't ever open this. <laugh> Ever. The next day Wanda hired a couple of neighbor kids to come over and haul the freezer out. Three kids showed up. Now, I guess it should have been four because Wanda and me and my mother and Larry were sitting in the dining room playing poker, and the kids were back, uh, in the pantry getting the freezer, and in between was the kitchen where the pets hung out, and molested each other. <laugh> And we were playing and then we heard this terrible crash, and then a moment of silence, and then one of the neighbor boys came streaking through the kitchen and ran right past us, and his face was white as a sheep, and he was screaming, and running for the front door. And his two friends were right behind him, and they were throwing chairs out of the way and crying at each other just to get past each other to get out, to get out of that house. And then the dogs showed up. The dogs came running past, and their eye, you could see the white of their eyes because they, they were horrified, and they were running for the door, and the cats emerged. <laugh> And they were just little dark streets going <inaudible>. And one of them jumped up on the table and slid all the way across the table, and everything, the bourbon, the coins, the little, you know, the, the, uh, little lucky, uh, coins everything. Everything went flying, and the cat shot out of there. And we were just sitting around staring at each other blinking wondering what was going on, and then it hit. <laugh> The smell because those neighbor kids had dropped the freezer, and everything had come out, and god knows what kind of meats were in there, but they were all rotten. And, and, and… <laugh> I just can't describe to you this smell. You know, all I can say is that, is that where, wherever that smell was, you had to be elsewhere. <laugh> And so, we got out of there. And, and I may have lost a little dignity because, because I think I might have elbowed passed my 90 -year-old mother in my haste to get out of there. But then we were out, and we were alive, and we rounded up the animals, and then we brought them over to the neighbor's house. And then we decided that we were gonna go back. We were gonna, um, we were gonna put starves on our face like masks and, and go rushing there, and grab the freezer and get it out of there. So, we did. We put… wrapped these scarves around our faces, and we walked back. And as we came around the corner of the house, we could see Lucy Mayo standing at the front door knocking, but a little puzzled because the front door is open, which it never was because the pets would get out, but the pets weren't around, and nobody else was around until she was sniffing the air, and getting that smell of death. And you could just see that she was putting together this narrative, this terrible narrative about a burglary gone bad. <laugh> And murders, and, all, all of her friends were in there dead. And then she heard her footsteps and she wield around and saw a raid before her seven masked bandito. <laugh> Or maybe they were the spirits of Frankie's murdered deer. <laugh> And she was just so terrified, but Wanda then started to laugh, and she just leaned up against the house and she sunk down into a crouch, and, and she just became a ball of laughter. And then all of us were laughing. Even the neighbor kids were on their asses laughing. Even Lucy Mayo had no idea what was going on, couldn't help but laugh because this was one of those moments, those amazing astonishing moments at Wanda's house that happened all the time, thousands of times until last summer when Larry suddenly died. And then my mom died. And then Wanda died. Within a few months of each other. Just one, two, three. And so it, it's all just as foretold. Everybody is gone, and, and that house is empty. I was, I was just there a few months ago, and that sermon that I told myself about how I had to be prepared for this, I had to be prepared for this darkness, this sermon was useless because I wasn't prepared at all because when the invisible world strikes, we're hopeless. And I shouldn't even have wasted my time with this sermon. I should have just gone back in that house, and spent every minute I could playing poker with my friends, and taking their money. <laugh> And listening to the insults of my beloved Wanda. <cheer> That was George Dawes Green. George is the founder of The Moth and The Unchained Tour, and the author of the novels, Ravens, The Juror, and The Caveman's Valentine. When we come back, we'll hear about the young boy's dreams of being the next Gary Coleman. The Moth Radio Hour is produced by Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole, Massachusetts and presented by the Public Radio Exchange, prx.org. One of the most important things we do for our health everyday is brushing our teeth, yet most of us don't do it properly. Quip is a better electric toothbrush designed to make brushing your teeth more simple, affordable and even enjoyable. Quip sensitive, sonic vibrations are gentle enough on your sensitive gums, and the brush heads are automatically delivered on a dentist recommended schedule every three months for just $5. Dentists love Quip, and that's why they're back by over 20,000 dental professionals. Quip starts at just $25, and if you go to GetQuip.com/moth right now, you can get your first refill pack for free with a Quip electric toothbrush. That's your first refill pack for free at G-E-T Q-U-I-P.com/moth. The Moth is supported by PBS presenting an all new season of We'll Meet Again. Join executive producer Ann Curry and she seeks to reunite people who met during pivotal moments in history from the Vietnam War escaping Cuba and the rise of the women's rights movement. Experience the personal stories of those who were there and their search for the person whose kindness and bravery help them survive these transformational events. We'll Meet Again. Tune in or streams starting Tuesday, November 13th at 8, 7 Central. Only on PBS. This is The Moth Radio Hour from PRX. I'm Catherine Burns from The Moth. Our last story is from playwright and performer, Kevin R. Free who we met through our friends at the New York Neo-Futurists. We wanna caution you that the story contains a graphic description of an accident, and maybe hard for some listeners. Here's Kevin R. Free live at The Moth. <cheer> When I was a kid, my mother used to drive the welcome wagon which meant that she literally drove our station wagon, and welcomed our new neighbors, um, in Fort Knox, Kentucky. And sometimes she took my brothers and I with her. And at the end of a very long day, my father would come home. He would put his briefcase down and then he would whisk my mother, uh, on a, a tango down the hallway. They would go all the way down and then they would turn, and they would go all the way back up, as the three of us watched. It was awesome. Then we would have dinner together, and then invariably we would go to the den and we would watch television. We loved TV. We watched Sanford and Son, and Chico and the Man. Yeah <laugh> Chico and the Man. Um, good times. Kojak, the Man from Atlantis. We loved TV. My mom was really kind of crazy and fun. She liked to make up dances. Um, my favorite dance was called the loose booty. And I'm going… <laugh> Of course I'm gonna do it for you. So she… <laugh> You're welcome. She would… So she would put her butt out like this, and then the butt would go to the left and the left butt cheek would shake like that. And then to the right, and the right would shake just like that. And that was the loose booty <laugh>. Thank you, thank you. <cheer> Um, so, um, I, I distinctly remember all of us once even climbing on to a bed and trying to make it fly like in Bedknobs and Broomsticks. This is all at my mother's urging. Uh, inspired by parents dance up the hallway, I once asked them on my sixth birthday if they would sing happy birthday as I processed up the hall. And my mom said, Oh, yes <laugh> of course. So, it was like happy birthday, step, to you. Together, happy birthday, step, to you. Together. All the way up the hall <laugh> 'til I got to the cake, blew out the candles, and we of course ate the cake <laugh>. And a drama queen was born. <laugh> So my mom was just really, just a very funny person. One time on a road trip, uh, we always drove in my father's Cadillac, and we had our designated seats. My father drove. My, uh, mother was in the passenger seat. My older brother to my left, me in the middle because I was the middle child, and my baby brother to the right. And one time on this road trip my mother or, or a, a, a white lady cut us off in her car, and my mother said, Cracker. <laugh> And my father said, Doris, because you know the kids were in the back of the car. Come on, Doris. And so my mom said, Saltine. <laugh> I've loved racial humor ever since. Um, so, on Christmas day, in 1975, we were gonna take another road trip. uh, it was a normal Christmas morning. We woke up, we opened our presents. Um, I received a bedspread that had the map of the United States on it, and it had the capital of each state marked. I loved this bedspread, but I, I think it was probably the last time that I cared about geography. So, after we are breakfast, we got into the car, all in our designated seats. My father in the driver seat, my mom in the passenger seat, my older brother to my left, my younger brother to my right. We drove from Fort Knox, Kentucky to Greensboro in North Carolina to visit my father's parents, my grandparents. At one point on the trip, my mother said that she wanted to take a nap, so she took off her seatbelt and she nestled herself in her seat, and I said I wanted to take a nap too. I turned around, um, and I straddled the hump in the back of the Cadillac, and I put my head down on the seat, and went to sleep. The next thing that I remember is, uh, there was a screech, and a scream, and a crash. And we had been in a really terrible, terrible car accident. So remember I was six years old, and my only context for car accidents was television, so what I remember is if we had a musical soundtrack, the music was gone and what was replaced was heavy breathing. And it was in slow motion. As I lifted my head, and I looked to my left, I was facing the back. I looked at my little brother who's trying to catch his breath which is probably the heavy breathing I head, and I looked in front of me and the car had been split in half. We were kind of… We hit an embankment. Someone had hit us. Um, and then I looked at my older brother and he had blood on his forehead. And as I kept turning around, and I looked into the front seat of the car. I saw my father still in his seatbelt, unconscious lying on the seat, and then the dashboard or the center of the car was also split in half. And on… To the right of the dash, of the split of the dash, there was blood, and teeth, and above that, a crack in the windshield, and a little blood there as well. And I kept turning to the right, and my mother was unconscious, still lying where she was when she was taking the nap. So, at this moment, the sound came back. It was no longer in slow motion. We can hear the wind whipping through the windows of the car, and there were lots of images of orphans back then. You know Tony and Tia, Escape from Witch Mountain, and the Family Affair, Buffy and Jody. So this sounds crazy but this is what my brothers and I said. We saw my parents unconscious on the, on the seat in the front and we screamed, We're orphans. We're orphans. And, uh, the next thing we knew is, we knew because we were in a car crash. Our car was gonna blow up, because that's what happens on TV when you're in a car crash. We scrambled over the front seat, and out the window where, uh, by my father's… on my… The driver's side window. By that time, we're on the street and the paramedics had arrived, and we discovered that we were not orphans. We rode in the ambulance with my father, and with the man who had hit us. And at that point on a subconscious level, I knew that my mother was dead because my older brother had touched her on the way out of the car, and he was sitting on my father's bed facing the man who had hit us, and he was beating his fist and saying, Revenge, revenge. In the meantime, my mother was in another ambulance, speeding away, and we never saw her again. So, that was Christmas and it was supposed to be a magical time, and it wasn't. Everything changed. My family was completely different, and I never saw my house in Fort Knox Kentucky ever again. We never packed it up. We just moved to Greensboro, North Carolina and in with my grandparents. And in all of this, no one ever said to six-year-old Kevin, Your mother is not coming back. Your mother is dead. That's what that means. And so I needed to deal with it in my six-year-old way, so I entered the magical world that my mom always wanted be in. A few years later, I, I was convinced in my magical world that Different Strokes was going to have a nationwide talent search to replace Gary Coleman because he was no longer cute as he once was, and his replacement was going to be me. I was positive that was going to happen. I also wanted to be a superhero. I wanted to save the world. I believed that I could. Every chance I got I would pull a pen out of my pocket, and pull it up to the sky, and say, Ultraman. Does anybody else remember Ultraman? Yeah, uh, yeah. Thank you. Um, uh, I would also say Shazam or if I had a necklace, I would pull it out of my shirt, and I would do the Ice's chant, Mighty winds that blow on high. Lift me now so I can fly. <laugh> So, I got a little older, and I gave up my dream of saving the world, being a superhero to save the world. My father remarried, had two beautiful, um, kids. My baby sister and brother, but that wasn't enough for me. I didn't want to save the world. I know wanted to save all of my friends. It had been determined that the guy who hit us on Christmas 1975 was a drunk driver so I decided I was not going to drink. I was that guy in college while everybody was getting drunk, I carried the two-liter bottle of Coke, um, silently judging all of that, and I finished Coke at each, at each party as well. Um, and it was a dangerous road, and I wanted to take care of everybody, save them all, and I ended up in a relationship with a man that I should never have been in a relationship with, but I wanted to save him. I put him through restaurant schools so we could become a pastry chef. Um, it didn't work out. And, when I was crying, my tears over that relationship, and I couldn't get out of bed for three days, and I couldn't stop crying. I realized that I wasn't gonna save him. I wasn't gonna be able to save anybody. I couldn't save my mother because my mother wasn't coming back. Dead meant she was gone. It's permanent. And then I had to stop living my life for other people, and I had to live my life for myself. I created my own dances eventually. There was one called the can opener. <laugh> It was kind of like that. I celebrate each one of my birthdays. My mother only had 31 birthdays, so when I turned 40, I had four parties. Um, I started drinking. <laugh> Thank you. But this story normally ends with me asking my friends and family to toast the memory of my mother, but tonight I would like to change that and, um, toast myself to my family to where we were, where we are, and where we're going, and hopefully we will get there at the same time. Thank you. That was Kevin R. Free. Kevin is a writer/performer. He's written over 60 short plats for the New York Neo-Futurists long running show, Too Much Light Makes the Baby Go Blind, and a full link play of Raisin in a Salad, Black Plays for White People. To share any of the stories you've heard in this hour, go to the moth.org where you can send a link to your friends and family so they can stream any Moth stories for free. The stories are also available at the iTune store. And we're on Twitter @themoth. Many of the most beautiful stories on The Moth main stage have been told by people who called our pitch line. A lot of those people had never been on stage before, so even if you can't imagine telling your story in front of a bunch of people, call anyway. If your story is selected, one of us mobs would be happy to help you prepare. The number is 877-799-MOTH. Again, that's 877-799-MOTH. Or you can pitch us a story at themoth.org. Oh, hi, yeah. My name <unk:Psi_A._Adler>. To see the world, I joined the Norwegian Merchant Marine when I was 24 years old and a math student. And on my way home from Japan, I was attacked by a mad fellow sailor. One evening, I went to my locker to get cigarettes, he said, Hey, you're making too much noise, jumped out of his bunk bed, kicked me hard with both feet, knocked me to the floor, broke my glasses. And we grappled and rolled around the galley floor. And at one point, I had him in a headlock, and he bit me deep on my right chest when we separated the deck. He said, Hey, you're bleeding. Go see the first mate. Well, my two-inch wound became infected and my fever rose to 104 degrees. Our cargo ship carried no doctor, and I felt I would die. And I thought, What a stupid way for a Brooklyn boy to die in the middle of a Pacific Ocean from a crazy sailor's bite. Pitch us your own story at themoth.org. That's it for this episode of The Moth Radio Hour. We hope you'll listen next time. Your host this hour was The Moth's artistic director Catherine Burns. Catherine also directed the stories in this show. The rest of The Moth's directorial staff includes Sarah Haberman, Sarah Austin Jenness, Jennifer Hixson, and Meg Bowles. Production support from Maggie Cino, Kirsty Bennett, Jena Weiss-Berman, and Brandon Ector. Most stories are true as remembered, and affirmed by the storytellers. Moth events are recorded by Argo Studios in New York City, supervised by Paul Ruest. Our theme music is by The Drift, of the music in this hour from <unk:Bill_Frazil,_Alan_Tusent> and the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra. Links to all the music at our website. The Moth is produced for radio by me, Jay Allison at Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole, Massachusetts with help from <unk:Vicky_Merick>. This hour was produced with funds from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, the National Endowment for the Arts, and the John D. and Catherine P. MacArthur Foundation, committed to building a more just, verdant, and peaceful world. The Moth Radio Hour is presented by the Public Radio Exchange, PRX.org. For more about our podcast or information on pitching your own story and everything else, go to our website, themoth.org. 

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+Welcome back to another episode of Podcast in Color the Podcast. This is <unk:Bailey> lover of Podcast am just pumping these last few episodes out. I can't say there'll be a schedule, I can say that the episode will mean something to me, I will be talking to just, to somebody I want to talk to and there will be the number of episodes I wanted <laugh> to last this podcast through December of this year. Podcast history was made the other day with Joe Biden's podcasts. They traded a few different terms on twitter last Wednesday when the podcast dropped in. That was like from the morning drops throughout most of the day. I love the point that Crystal made on the read on like who even cares about the situation because the shade room posted about it when the girl was still pregnant and <laugh> had her baby shower, so really hearing about it after the baby dropped was everyone playing a game of telephone and almost proof that like men gossip more than they want to say they do because that's what all this situation <laugh> really is. The trend were big for that podcast and for Spotify because Spotify was the only platform that people could play it on, I believe it was for the first 48 hours and then it's uploaded on youtube and you can watch on youtube or listening on Spotify. So, pretty big to trends and subjects and only be on one podcast service and for that service to be Spotify, um, that was kind of big for all of them. So I kind of wonder, are they getting the numbers they have before when they were on more platform? Um, you know, did this like trending and things help people go over to Spotify to listen to Joe Biden not wait until youtube. Lots of questions, I wish we could see podcast data on. I'll be in Atlanta for my leeks live shows in November. Am planning a podcast meetup right now that will be with dr Joy of therapy for black girls. Right now, we're trying to make it on the evening of November the 14th and I will put out more information as I get it, most likely in the next episode, I'll confirm to you a few more details for that meetup if you're in Atlanta and want to join or if you're close to Atlanta and you want to come up and meet me or dr Joy and other podcasting people. If you didn't hear about this, um, I post every other week, so I'll be doing it this week. Um, jobs, internships and fellowships that people might be interested in that follow me. So anyone working in podcasting, wanting to work in podcasting, I post those things so you can find it. One of the things I posted the… almost two weeks ago was Spotify, opened up a summer internship for their podcasting department for next year and the applications are due pretty soon and it's for people that are in college and I said Sophomores, juniors or seniors and it is a paid internship. So I will link that in the episode notes. Um, if it's something you're looking for or if you know someone that is in college right now that's close to that area, that would love that job. Spotify treats their people right, So if there was an internship to have, I would say this is a great internship to have because you will come away with things and come away with some of the networking you can do just being in a Spotify building and all the dope people that work there. So I will post that internship in the show notes for more information and the applications for that are due soon. They have a whole process about it, so not something you want to wait on. I just updated my events page, um, am podcastsincolor.com. I'll link it in the show notes. If you Google podcasts and color events, it's usually the first link that comes up and that's where I put any podcast festivals, conferences, things like that I hear about a podcast meetups and the biggest list on there is podcast live shows and that's podcast live shows everywhere. So I have light shows from London, from New York. I know there's from Dallas, Texas. I'm all over the United States in London are mostly where I was seeing live shows. So those are the ones I posted. If you're having a podcast live show or a podcast event, please feel free to email me the information with a link so I can link back to it. I wanted to mention the events page because I was noticing when I added, um, events this time, there's Levar Burton Reads all kinds of people, um, he's doing shows a few different places. I think am gonna try to catch Levar Burton Reads when it's in Atlanta because I'll be in Atlanta, but there is a free show being done by Last Name Basis in Brooklyn at BRIC media. Really wish I could be there <laugh> and it's on the same night as the Levar Burton show in Atlanta on November the 14th. And Hey Fran Hey, he's gonna be the guest. You have to RSVP to get in free, and I'll link that in the episode notes. So if you're looking for something for you do, I love free events? So like whenever I'm in New York, am just happening from one event to the next <laugh>. I always go. So if you're looking for a live show, you're looking for something fun? it's gonna be with Franchesca Ramsey and her husband, the hosts of Last Name Basis and Hey Fran Hey will be their guests. So <inaudible> jay is on Latinos Who Lunch and that was last week's episode. I'll link it in the episode notes. I haven't got a chance to check it out yet, but I know it's going to be greatness like they're both faith podcast, so can't wait to see the conversation that they have. Um, that was one of the top five there, five mentioned on his episode of Podcast in color the podcast. He also mentioned Grizzly Kiki as one of his top five, I believe. I know it was on his subscribe list and he's a guest on Grizzly Kiki and I listened to that last week. It was a two hour episode, but it was filled with such good information and the different things they covered, like it didn't feel like two hours. It felt like an hour, like I thought, oh my gosh, I'm probably going to stop this a million times and by the end I was like, oh wow, it's almost done. So a great episodes to check out and I'll link that in the episode notes. I hope you enjoy the episode today. It is with Ayhiana Angel and she started her own podcast network called Amazing media and we talk about that in the podcast that she has on her network, which would be switch Pivot Or Quit, and also Emily and I hope you enjoy this interview. Thank you Ahyiana for joining me today, and I know of you previously from switch Pivot or quit your podcast and I've seen you written up a few different places. Like more than I'm saying most podcasts written up like Forbes. Um and it's just other big articles where I'm like, okay, she's working. <laugh>. Um, and then most recently you started your own podcast network with one podcast. Well, two Podcasts, your Switch Pivot Or Quit and then Emily on that, correct? Yes, yes. Thank you for having me. Am excited to chat. Oh, no problem. Okay. So I like to start with social media because I feel like starting at the beginning of an interview, like maybe people will engage more or be able to look at things while you're talking. I'm. So where can people find you with social media networks? And what do you use? Uh, I am mostly on Instagram and on Instagram you can follow the network at Mayzie media and that's M-A-Y-Z-I-E media and I'm on Instagram. Am also there and I engage a lot more on the switch Pivot or quit Instagram and that's just at Switch Pivot Or Quit. And then my personal is Ahyiana Angel, um, but mmh, I don't know, that's not the best place to hang out with me, namely Switch Pivot or Quit. I'll say you're on Switch Pivot or Quit, at least I'll follow the um, uh, the Mayzie media one now. But like I see you on that one a lot on lives and then I do stories and things like that so. Exactly. <laugh> I want to get your life, but from personal, that's how I feel. I don't even really mentioned my personal. <unk:chuckles> um, it counts Yeah, you know, if personal is just kind of there as a formality and it. And there's a lot of people that I know, you know what I mean? That aren't really engaged with like the Podcast world and everything that I'm doing. So I just kinda try and keep that one up as just like, I don't know <crosstalk> Exactly. Like to me it's like friends and family that aren't really going to care about the Podcast things or like Exactly. If I like their posts, you know, there like, why is she liking? What is this? Yes, yes. <unk:chuckles>, Yeah, it's a whole different world <laugh>, Right, right, right. Um, what, uh, Podcast apps or I should say, do you have your… out your phone? I do. Okay. What podcasts apps do you use? Okay. So I'm probably pretty lame because I don't really use a lot of things that I guess I will consider podcast apps. Okay. Um, but some apps that I use… that I use that help me with podcasting, I use inshot, um, because that helps me with the… It's like an editor type of situation, video editing, photo editing and that helps me put together like Instagram related things based off of the podcast, Like if I wanna do like a little clip or something like that, I use that. Um, and I use… What else do I use? Um, I have like a stitcher and stuff on my phone. I have this other app called Unfold, which helps me with Instagram stories. It just makes your Instagram stories look pretty and like, um, I guess like have a, a clean, consistent format. Mmh. Um, like I said, yeah, I have the stitcher APP. Um, I… What else do I have? I, I have an iphone so I have my podcast App. <laugh> <unk:chuckles> And um, and I have PodBean on my phone, but I don't really have like a lot of… I use my computer a whole hell of a lot. So I, I do like things like wave and stuff like that to do the audio grams. I use that. I use that on the computer? Mmh, Um, so yeah, I do a lot of stuff on the computer. I use Canva for a lot of my podcasts, graphics and whatnot. Yes. I use a couple of things you did, but I'm going to have to check out some of those other things. Yeah, Um, so what podcasts are you subscribed to? Oh, okay. So this question is always funny when people ask about the podcast I listened to because this is the thing about me, I don't really listen to podcasts that are sort of in my similar space, if you will, because I don't want to be influenced by other people. And when I listen and I hear things that we do similar, I'm like, Oh man, I wish I wouldn't have heard that, you know, cause now it makes me feel like, oh I want to change it up or whatever. So the podcasts that I usually listen to and the ones that I like to tell other people about are things that they're probably, they're probably won't necessarily be on their radar. So one that I definitely listened to regularly. It's Robin Sharma, his mastery sessions. He's like uh, um, he, he actually made a Switch Pivot Or Quit. He's like a success coach type of guy, but he has just like a wealth of knowledge and information. His delivery is very soothing and it's just like, it's good stuff to keep you up on your game. Especially in terms of your personal development. Um, there's another one called Noego. I like that one. That one's not… That's kind of off the beaten path for, I guess maybe a lot of people. Words Well Said is another one that is produced by a colleague of mine and she's a communication expert and so she has a lot of good tips about just engaging with different people in relationships and how to present yourself and speaking and all of that. And then another one that I really liked that another woman that holds this podcast support is sexy. She works super hard. She produced so many episodes and I just don't think that she gets enough credit and shine in her podcast is amazingly like put together. Like I love it. Those with mine, I appreciate it. I mean I tell people all the time, like overtime my things have changed. Um, like, at one point I didn't listen to really any comedy podcasts outside of the read. Everything else was more serious than business minded. Right. And then after the last election it was like, I couldn't listen to a lot of things that covered anything like daily or anything, so I listened to comedy podcasts because they have a whole bunch of episodes and only talk about them and their friends, like, you know, <laugh> playing around that has just like Kind of take you out there, the heaviness of everything. Yes at one point in time I couldn't name any kind of any comedy, comedy podcasts. And now I'm like, I could give you a whole <inaudible> what would you like, <laugh>. A <inaudible> in New York. <laugh> <laugh> I love that. So like I love it. Um, you know, when you can find your own path in podcasting because some people are like, I just generally listen, but when you really are connected to something, it's like, no, I like, this is what I like. Yeah. Yup. That's true. Very true. Um, let's see. And so you named a few. Outside of those, would you say you have a podcast top five? Um, I would say that I don't really, uh, because I don't know, I, um, am kind of one of those people that likes to switch around a lot <unk:chuckles>. Mh, mh. I kind of not a person that has favorites either because one day I may like rocky road ice cream, another day I may be more of uh, you know, cookies and cream kinda girl. So am not a real big favorites. Um, so I wouldn't say that I have a top five, but if, if you force me to I guess I could come up with it. <laugh> It's okay. Not Everybody has one. Like this year I've been trying to say, do I have a top five? To me it almost feels like a top 10. Um, but like we'll see how it goes, but I just try to put it out there, so I can kind of remember what am listening to or like a lot like I wish I had a way in a file, like how Spotify at the end of the year tells you all the songs you listened to or things like that. Yes. If they do that with Podcast, they'll have me for next year. Yes. So I can measure, <laugh>. The things am listening to how much. Like if they can give me that at the end of 2018 with Podcast, they have me for 2019 as a Podcast app. That's, it's that, Well, Um, <unk:chuckles> But sometimes you don't realize as how much you engage with things too, like when it shows you the music. Am like, wow, this was like in my top played, you know, and it's like, you know, you like something but you don't realize how much you're engaging with it. So, that would be dope. There was a lot of good things that they should do with Podcasting that they haven't done yet that would just make life so much easier and make people much more engaged. But you know, I mean, You know that's <inaudible> I don't know why they're not doing a Think tank like Yeah. Or like something where they're breaking creative minds together. Somebody hadn't said why don't we put these creative minds and pay them Right, and they tell us really what they think they should be happening. Right? Or what the space actually needs, especially to boast the listening and engagement from the just average listener, you know, Mh, hm. I think a lot of people feel like podcasting is sort of, um, outside of their scope. Like uh, you won't believe how many people, when I first launched my podcast, they were like, okay, so don't laugh, but how do I listen? <unk:chuckles> Like I know what a podcast is, but I've never actually listened before. So there's this, I feel like there's this, this conversion. That's the big gap. Yeah, there's this conversion that needs to happen where people don't feel like Podcasting is for this group of people who are so much more advanced than them, you know, and I think if there were ways to make it feel almost like listening to music, then people, it will be much more approachable for people. So you're right, we need to talk to somebody and they need to bring us in for this think tank They do, And we need to make it. <laugh>, I mean, you said that and I feel like I, that's what I talked to my friend Renee that's, um, one of the UK. Um, well she's in London podcasters and she's a black woman. She's doing big things. Um, had a number one podcast on the charts. It's in the UK, but it's like we were saying the same thing and I was like, I almost feel like I wish I had more money or funding or a way to figure it out because I would do an initiative where we would do that for basically, you know, starting with black podcasts Yeah, Because when you get people to know about a podcast, they start with you. You're like the nucleus of how they look for more things. Right. That's why when people find a white podcasts are like, do black podcast exists? and it's like only Mmh, hm. if you somehow break into that on somebody's podcast as a guest or something. Do people even understand there's a whole other world out there of us. I'm like, Yeah. Once people, it's like when I'm talking to different people about starting a podcast and always talking about exactly what you just said in your friend saying, how do I listen? I was like, Mh hm, That is a big gap, like people don't want to ask and that's what I'm talking about different podcast apps all the time or like what people might be looking for in a podcast app because it's complicated and it's like you don't want to have to get home and figure out the 10 steps somebody was trying to tell you <unk:chuckles> of how to listen. Hey, And I'm like, I've done this with my aunt that is like in her seventies. And I was like, once I figured out that she works Spotify fine. I was like, oh, that's where you listen to podcasts now? Yes. Like apple podcast didn't work for us. Yes, yes. We tried different things. <laugh>. The up next always happened with her and she was like, I don't want to play that. It was just, it was a thing. Mh, hm, And I was like, but we figured out Spotify and it became like, oh, Podcasts, you know, like it's easy Right, yeah, And as was like, but it takes time not work. Like how does it work with this person or what does this person. When I listened to a Podcast about like how you have a Podcast about one thing, but what you want to listen to you isn't necessarily in that same field. So- Right, right, you know, it's just a whole world. <laugh> It is, it is. And it's a, it's a, it's another thing about discovery too, you know, you might find one podcast that you really liked but you keep going back to that one because you don't really know how to discover anything else. I mean think about the Times that you've used like a different app or something like that and you're trying to navigate through it and you're like, I don't really know what my options are. Like this app sounded like a really good app and that's why I downloaded it. But what can I do with that? I don't even know where to start. I'm scared to press a button because I missed something. <laugh> I don't want to delete it. I don't want to do this. Yeah, yeah, and I think that's how sometimes people feel, and you know, it's so crazy too. I was looking at these stats that um, this… I forgot I had emailed it to myself and it was somebody had put it together and they were basically saying like, talking about the amount of downloads that um, an average show has and they were just saying how <unk:coughs>. He was like if you're doing like a thousand downloads or 2000 or anywhere from like let's say a thousand to 10 thousand an episode, like you're above average and you're doing really, really well because that's not the average. And so you think about it if, if those are that not the average kind of numbers that you think about what every other podcasts is probably doing and you're like, okay, so it's really hard for people to get discovered. Yeah. You know, it's like you're creating all this content, but who knows that you're there if they're not within your little nucleus and it's hard to break outside of that, so yeah, I think if there were some social ways to engage more, Mh, It would make this whole like producing podcasts life 10 times easier. And that's why I want to just jump into this real quick. Okay, Am not trying to take over your interview, Yeah, fine. <laugh>, <laugh> but you know, like when I first started podcasting I noticed that there was a lack of representation for people of Color, black people, everything in this space, Mmh, hm. And so that's when I created this directory only to find out that you had a whole entire robust directory and I was so happy when I finally figured that out and found out about it because I was like, okay, somebody sees the same thing that I see. There was something missing here and we need a way to discover each other and if it wasn't there, you know, what are you supposed to then do? And so that's why I was so happy to find out, find out that you created something because it's like you see something missing and you're like, hey, this is my contribution to helping this, this genre go a little bit further. You know, so Kudos to you. <laugh> <laugh> Thank you. Thank you. And Kudos to you because it takes different people doing it. Like it takes different people bringing people in, you know, Yeah, finding a different list, you know, when Google or Mh hm, something that somebody randomly shares on face book and then I would say it's like, Oh okay, there's Podcasts- Right. On this list I've never heard of and it's like we're not put on the regular list. We have to fight for like one space on a regular list. Like we don't have podcasts about anything. Like even this morning I was just tweeting about like somebody said we need more than the entertainment podcasts and am like, there is more than entertainment podcasts, but, Mh hm, when they won't… like a network on necessarily want to deal with you on hosting a podcast too, you're like 203 thousand, you know, like followers in like now you're not necessarily gonna have that if you're talking about business or like you know you're just starting out or but you have the knowledge of what you should be talking about. But is anybody looking for too you for that? So <unk:chuckles> Yeah.exactly. It's just like it's a whole world that I understand and like people talk about it and I'm like, I've been to so many different podcasts. Conferences. Like, I could give you an in depth thing on things that are wrong and I try not to talk about that anymore because I feel like Yeah. we really wanted to know, you could research that yourself. <laugh> <laugh> It just is like, I don't… That's why I was telling people I would like to do my own conference or like, you know, Yes. Other events because we don't have to be only 70 people and 12 hundred people at a conference or something. Like, Mmh, We're way more than that, um, like they're building a list, uh, from third coast. There was a speech that happened and now they're building a list that's going to be like a directory. So if you want to work in podcasting, in your PLC. Mmh, So producers host anything like that, so it can be seen because when they go to hire at a big company, they'll act, Yeah, Like they really only see a field of white people. And it's like, now we know we're out here. Yeah. Like we're all friends, especially in New York. Like they've made a point of linking up like, oh, I see you, hey, you're a producer. Mh hm, Where, okay, am here. Hey, let's, you know, link up, email me so you can know this other person and things like that Yes. Because it's the only way we're being known is like really putting your friend on or saying like, no, here's my list of women <laugh> that I know can do- Mh, hm. This, they aren't them, you know, Yeah. That's true. So it's, it's, it's a whole world that we're building. And I was like, I thought we weren't going to have to do this, but it feels like we're really gonna have to go even further with this. Like they're not going to just include, Yup, Us. <laugh>, You better know it, yeah, yeah. You gotta make your mark. Um, in talking about that, um, in saying, you know, to make your mark. Um, I wanna talk about your Podcast networks. So what made you want to start a network of podcasts, pass your own podcast? Well, it was two fold. There was obviously this lack of representation that I noticed from the beginning and just like you said, instead of complaining about it instead of, you know, feeling like why and looking for somebody to give me and my peers opportunities, I was like, you know, what, why don't you just be a part of the solution, like create your own. There's nothing stopping you from creating your own and giving opportunities, you know, and, and, and really shining a light on programming that could do just as well as the other less a mainstream programming if given an opportunity. Mh hm, You know. So it was that. And then I also had so many different breakout, series, ideas based off of the Switch Pivot Or Quit podcasts. It started with the, with the show Emily. So I was gonna do Emilly as a series, you know, within the Switch Pivot Or Quit Podcasts. And I, I started compiling some people that want to interview and all this stuff and then it just kind of dawned on me like, this needs to be a show on its own, and then I just was having all these ideas of programming that I wanted to do outside of what I was already doing. And it just really seemed like this needs to happen, like I need to make this a full fledged thing. And I really did toy with the idea for a while before I finally said, okay, I'm gonna push, go on this and I'm gonna really start working toward making this a reality because it was an intimidating thing. You know, you see like you said, you see all these major networks, you know, in the news and those are, those are the things that people have the eyeballs on. So it feels quite intimidating to enter a space and trying to even think that you're going to somewhat compete with what the major networks are doing, when they have funding and all of these other things. Mh, hm. But at the same time I said, you know what, you've never let anything else stop you. You know, I, I got my book, my very, my very first Debut novel, novel traditionally published with no experience. I didn't know anybody in the publishing industry. I didn't have any connections, I didn't have any experience, I didn't have a family member to hook me up, none of that, but I got it traditionally published and that was my goal and, and I got it and I got that deal within four months of leaving from my, you know, traditional 95 type job. And so I'm like, if you could do that when you put your mind to something, you can do whatever the heck you want to do. So just do it. Just try. <unk:chuckles>. What's the worst that's gonna happen, you know what I mean? And so I just, I was like, I'm doing this and I just started putting the pieces together and I'm still putting the pieces together honestly. Um, I love that the Podcast is focused on women. Um, and I use the directory to you, directory you have, let's focus on women too. Is there anything that makes you like, is what you're doing kind of for women or like about women's that your goal in, in this? Yes. Absolutely. And you know why? Because not only did I, I noticed that there was a lack of representation of people of color and black people. It was also, there was a lack of representation with women, you know, and, and I, and so many women kept tagging me on posts on Instagram, mainly where other people were asking for podcasts led by women. And then I was having this conversation with a young lady who was just talking about, she's like, you know, I found your Podcast at the perfect time. And I just felt like, you know, I was just going to scream, like if I had to hear one more middle aged white men telling me that the answer to all of our problems was a green juice and waking up earlier in the morning, you know, and if she wasn't the first person to say that, and then I've gotten, you know, um, added on tweets where people are saying the same thing. So I was just Like, you know, what, I want to be a part of creating, um, a space where our voices really matter. You know, because like a lot of things are heavily white male dominated. We know that, Mh hm, so what in this whole like… I guess you could say atmosphere right now where we're really taking command of our voices as women, we're really showing up in different ways, We're really saying, hey, we're here. We want to be respected, like you're not, actually, it's not just that we wanna be respected, you're going to respect us, you know? So I think that a lot of the climate that we're in is very powerful and so I wanted to also be a part of that within my own way, you know, within sort of like this Podcasting space because I didn't really see it happening. I know that there's Like a handful of other producers that um, specifically sort of like cater to women, but you don't see a lot of people trying to make a big splash and a big mark and cater to just female led programming. Mh. I like it. I mean, I understand it. I'm always trying to talk about more women. Mmh hm, I try to recommend that when people asked me for Podcast, <laugh>, <laugh>. Its usually podcasts by women, like listen to a woman, how about that? Yeah, <laugh>, You got a better chance, like I feel like even the worst woman is gonna be better than <unk:_laughs> <laugh>, Some of these I mean bad guys, Yes. Um, but you've also… I listened to an episode of a million, to bring one of the questions you asked that guest, um, what were some of the steps if someone wanted to follow the things you did, what were some of the steps you decided when you went into create your own network? Um, where you said like, these are the things I'm going to do to make sure it happens. So the first thing that I did was um, I said okay, I gotta pick a name that I, I really think resonates with me, the potential audience and, um, so that was very challenging. And, and that was just kind of like my first order of business because I felt like I can't do anything if I don't have a name, Mmh, you know, Mmh hm, So that was challenging, but I came up with Mayzie media, uh, because like this journey that we're on, you know, just living life is very complex at times, you know, and I liken it to uh Mayze. Sometimes you gotta go left, sometimes you gotta go right, but you don't always know which way's the right way that's gonna get you to this end point, the end of that Mayze and for a lot of us, the end of that Mayze is sort of like this feeling of success or accomplishment, you know, like I lived a life that was worth low. And so I wanted to create a network that could accompany people on that journey so that could speak to different issues that they're having shows that could speak to different issues that they're having, whether it be with child rearing and being a new mom and, or it's entertaining you along, you know, a hectic day or it's pouring into your personal professional development, um, or it's helping you to enhance your lifestyle to be a better you. Um, with maybe like your eating or your fitness or whatever. So I wanted to create a network that could speak to all of those things. The programming could speak to all those things because our lives are like a Mayze. And so that's where I came up with Mayzie because your life is kind of mayzie sometimes left, right? Who knows? <unk:chuckles>. And so once I came up with that, I was like, okay, now It's all… everything's a go, all systems go. So the first thing that I did after I picked the name was I'm obviously secured all of my URLs, social, all of that kind of stuff. And then I went and found a designer, and I hired a designer to create like the logo, the mood board, like the, um, the branding colors, all of that kind of stuff. And that was a process. But, but, you know, to be honest, that was the first time that I really hired a designer to execute those types of things for me, Like everything else that I've done before, it's usually me, you know, everything with switch pivot or Quit, all the graphics, everything, I do, everything myself. But this time I was like, I want this to be, you know, a little bit different. So I, I want, I wanted other hands to touch it. So I hired a designer. I'm in the midst of all of that. I started uh, I created like licensed robust business plan. Let me say that actually that was probably in between… that was the early stages after I picked the name… actually, it was at the same time I was picking the name and um, and I went through the whole designer phase and everything like that. And that, that business plan was so crucial because it helped me to really think through all the aspects of what this was going to look like, including growth, what this could potentially look like? And um, and so once I created that business plan and really flushed it out and the, the um, the designer that… all that stuff was wrapping up around the same time. I was also simultaneously building the content, you know, I had in the business plan, I have like three tiers of different shows that are gonna roll out at different points in time and sort of like what they're going to look like? what the names of the shows are? all of that stuff. And um, and I started, I had to decide what shows are going to come first. And I started picking the shows that are going to come first, um, started selecting the talent, pitching people for, for a show like Emilly has a pitch. I had to pitch about maybe a quarter of the guests and then the rest of them came to me or maybe I already knew them. Mmh, So, um, that was also different because then you're getting into this space where you have to explain to somebody exactly what you're doing and, and you're not… you can't give numbers of what you're already doing and these are, Yeah. These are like larger guests who wanna know, like, if I am spending my time doing a 60 minute interview with this person, like who's it gonna reach? you know, so- My time is money so what is exactly happening here? Yeah, yeah, like what's the ROY for me? So, you know, that was, that was the first sort of, I guess you could say intimidating step of creating this network because now you're not just, um, am not just pitching for Switch Pivot or Quit a show that people, you know, could potentially be familiar with and it already has numbers and all of that kind of stuff. This is something completely new and I'm asking people to take a chance on me. So that was, um, that was sort of like, one of the later things that I did was I developing all those interviews and then started conducting um, the pitching interviews, conducting the interviews and then like editing the show and all of that. So it's still building. It's still a process. Um, So those are the things I kinda did early on. Is it like for your network, do you want anyone to submit podcasts they think you would like to have on a network or anything like that or submitting things to, um, or jobs you may want, um, have available for freelance or anything like that? Yes. Eventually, um, that is, that is a space in that, that's all in the business plan. <unk:chuckles>. Eventually that is a part of it, uh, but early on is going to be more original programming and I'm gonna basically like slot people in slot hosts into shows that I want to develop already, you know, I want somebody else to produce and help me develop uh, and eventually it will get to a point though where I'm accepting submissions for people, shows that they want to produce. Just to be honest with you right now that I know that there's a lot that goes into that in terms of, um, who has the rights, uh, what do we do if you decide that you don't want to, you know, work with us anymore? Um, and how do we split the revenue and all of those things. Mmh hm. There's a lot of elements to that, that I quite honestly don't wanna deal with right now. Like actively, like I want to put it together and am working on that on the back end, but I don't want to execute on that right now, you know, because I think it's going to complicate things for me too much. Um, and, and um, am a small shop so I have to really focus on the things that I think, um, I can sort of do best right now and then bringing in other people, that's a definite thing that's going to happen, but it's just not the most immediate thing that's gonna happen. Okay. And where are you located? Because I thought like in my mind I put you on the west coast, like California. Is that right? Or you're <inaudible>. Yes, yes right. Okay. <laugh>. <laugh>. I'm like, I don't know because I remember while I was listening to the Podcast, but I was only halfway through my leeks episode that it was talking about when you moved to New York. And am like, I swear, like, <unk:chuckles>. I, I think of her as like Oakland or bay area or something like, I don't really like, you know, think of you and like how I was introduced to you. I believe you were there by then. Yeah, yeah, I was, I was in New York for about seven years. Um, so I spent a decent amount of time there and still like if I, if I look at my Instagram analytics, most of my people are in New York, so I have a very close connection to New York, <unk:Chuckles>. I guess you could say, but I'm definitely in California right now. Hm. Okay. Um, let's see. Is there a number one Podcast tip that you give to other podcasters when they ask you about podcasting? Huh. I would say that because I'm who I am, I don't have one tip, I have multiple. <laugh>. I try and tell people as, as much as I can to set them up in the best direction. So what I would want to share with your audiences, obviously you know, consistency is important, but don't just take that for what people say, like, oh, be consistent, be consistent, know, really understand that consistency is important in the way that if you like something and you go and look for it again, but it has nothing new to offer. How many times are you going to go and check for it before you decide am done with them? You know, they've no longer got my attention because they're not trying to hold my attention. So if you're not consistent, consistent in an audience really starts to like you and gravitate to what you do. It's almost like you're letting them down. You're leaving them hanging, if you don't produce when you say that you're going to produce. So that's one thing that I really try and address to people. Another thing is give yourself time to grow. Um, and really put yourself out there, you know, put yourself out there and all the ways that you can see possible because like we just talked about earlier, the discovery process can be a little bit challenging. So sometimes you gotta think like there is no box when you're trying to get in front of different audiences and when you're try, when you're trying to develop your show and grow your show, it's like, you know, you can look at what other podcasters have done to grow their show, but look at maybe what some you tubers have done Hmm, To grow their platform and try some of those things. You know, cross collaboration is a huge thing. Um getting, doing advertising on other people's Podcasts where you guys are crossing advertising and you're not even a guest, you're just speaking about somebody else's stuff. Just think about ways that you can get out there that may not be normal to the industry, but It may be a damn good idea. You know. So that's, that's another thing that I would, that I, you know, try and share with people. Um, there's just a ton of things that I feel like I do and um, and I hope that sometimes people are just paying attention to because you can do what I do. You know what I mean? <unk:chuckles>. Am always trying new stuff, am always trying new things and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't or sometimes I stick with it and sometimes I don't, But some, but what am also trying to do is give my audience variety too, mmh, hm. you know, so that they're not constantly like, oh, here she goes again doing that. I already know what that is. <laugh> Yeah. Yeah. Like, I won't even bother, you know, that's a part of the reason why I jumped on Instagram live the way that I do. Uh, because people listen to your Podcast, but that's them just hearing you, them actually seeing you and getting to engage with you in a space like Instagram live, that brings a whole nother element to it. Now they feel like they know you want a different level. It also makes them feel like you're accessible to them, which is great, you know, you want to keep building that connection with your audience. And also I would suggest is to, build community, don't just produce and create your podcast just for the whole of it. Really build community and you may think, oh well we have like 55 people listening every episode. Okay, well really nurture those 55 people, <unk:chuckles>. You know, do something to really make them feel special and let them know that you appreciate them showing up every week, every two weeks, every month or whatever, how often it is to listen to your show and to engage with you because they don't have to. So those are just some of the things that I could you know share of <inaudible>. <laugh> <laugh> I appreciate it because I love all if Podcasting advice and do you do. I remember the class you did with um, I wanna say Christine Carter, Yes. mmh hm, Do you all… uh it was a class on Podcasting. Um, how… are you doing anything else like that? Are you available for consulting like that or Anyway? Yes, I do consulting. So I, you know what I had to switch things up. So I do these things called pick my brain sessions, so pick my brain sessions, means that somebody can sign up for 60, a 60 minute session with me to talk about whatever they want to talk about if they want to talk about developing their Podcasts or if they want to talk about monetizing their podcast or if they want to talk about different show ideas for, you know, increasing their engagement for their podcasts, whatever, um, they can sign up for that. But if they want to just talk about marketing in general, if they want to talk about in enhancing their own personal presence digitally so that they can then help that, you use that to help them grow their podcasting profile and presence. We can do that too. So I have these pick my brain sessions which are basically consultations so that people can tap into what I know in a way that serves them best. Because I don't know what you need, you know, but I know what I know and if anybody is familiar with me and knows what I do and those, my background, I have 12 plus years and entertainment marketing and PR and brand digital, brand styling and all of that stuff. I've self published a book, I've been traditionally published, I've done, obviously, I've done my own Podcast. <laugh>. <laugh> I, I do my own graphics, all of this other stuff. I have just like a wealth of knowledge in multiple different areas. So that's how I allow people to sort of tap into that knowledge outside of what I give for free on my podcast. And um, and I don't have any specific courses that am planning on doing live anytime in the near future. But um, the course that Christine and I did, which was on monetizing your podcast, that's available if you gotta Switch Pivot or Quit.com and click on resources, that one is still available as well as my beginner's guide to creating, launching and marketing a podcast. Now, the one thing I do want to add is that I did, just to make it more approachable and affordable for people. I did create this thing where, um, you can go to Switch Pivot or Quit.com and you can sign up for monthly access to all of the programs that I have for $14 a month. Mmmh, So then, that puts a little pressure on youtube, right? So if you're somebody that procrastinates and you're like, all right, I only want to spend $14 on this, like I want to get my money's worth out of the $14, you know, that means you need to hit it hard <unk:claps> for that month that you have access to all the programs. You need to take every program that you can, go through every course that you can, as fast as you can and get as much as you can out of it. Or You could just keep paying the monthly fee. And you can procrastinate and drag your feet, whatever. It doesn't matter to me, <laugh>. but you know, The information is there. It's there and it gives you easy access to it. So there's like absolutely no excuses as far as am concerned. And on lengthy, um, your interview with my leak in the episode notes because they will all go really deep into like your history of being, working at PR agencies, working for the NBA, traveling the world, um, there's a lot to your story. Like we're really only doing, <laugh>. The podcasting side, which is a smaller side, but there is a lot before this that led up to Yeah. where you are now. True. Um, let's see. So we've done all of that and I… we mentioned Switch Pivot or Quit, but did you want to talk more about it and were there any episodes that you feel like, um, introduce people to Switch Pivot or Quit? Or people talk about like these are the episodes I love most to start people with? Um, he know what? that will be, that's a good thing in terms of like, why can we say before like knowing like the music that you listened to the most. Mmh, I think I briefly looked at which episode is more popular, uh, but I don't remember to be honest with you, <laugh> But Switch Pivot or Quit, the way it's structured is like you can sort of drop in anywhere and not feel like you're behind in the conversation. So the reason that I created the Switch Pivot or Quit podcast is because like you said, I have a story, right? Um, I used to work at the NBA and when, when I got to the point where I needed to make a Switch Pivot or Quit and I was in transition and trying to figure out what was going to be next for me. I used to sit there and I used to like listen to things and, and I really wished that I had a podcast, like the one that I created to listen to, to help me to see what was out there, what the possibilities were, what the options were, what other people were doing, what they were talking about. And then also mixing some of that career advice that could have helped me maybe in some of the sticky situations that you encounter, you know, so that's why I created this podcast. I wanted to be for the person who is in transition and needs sort of like some resources and a little bit of guidance and a little bit of insight from somebody who maybe has been there, done that. So that the podcast is structured in a way that there's interviews. So there's one on one interviews with people, that have made a switch pivot or quit. There's also interviews with people who are more on the, I guess you could say expert side like HR professionals, people that are really good with sales and marketing, people that are good with sponsorships, like all these different things that could help aid you in your journey. Mmh, hm. And then, um, and then I also do some book chats, which is where I read a book that I, that am into and I think could be helpful for the audience and then I talk about it. So really people could sort of like drop in wherever they want. And, and not feel like left behind, but I think one of the more popular episodes was one with myself and my girlfriends. I did that toward the end of the year uh, in 2017 mm-hmm And I have a close group of girlfriends, it's like six of us. And so I brought them onto the podcast. Not all of them were thrilled about it, the way that… they're not really interested in being like on people's podcasts and stuff like that. But we had a lot of really good conversation about, uh, life things, about career journeys, about friendships, all of that kind of stuff. So that, was a really popular episode. And um, more recently, um, I would have to say that, um, let's see, the episode, the episode with Amber Rae, who I mentioned her podcast earlier, um, in the episode is called Can We Talk? Mmh, That episode Was really popular. People loved that one. So if I had to make a suggestion, I would say check that one out too. Okay, I'll link those and of course the whole podcast. In the episode notes so anybody can go back and listen to your episodes and how you said it is really like a resource. Like when I've looked through different, I've listened to the sponsorship episodes and a few other episodes on different things, but it was more I look at the title and look at the episode notes like, oh, that is something I wanna hear about and I can jump in and hear about that and it didn't feel like I needed the last four episodes or something to connect everything together. <laugh>. Right, yeah. Thank you for joining me and Podcast in color the podcast. Thank you for having me. I appreciate your time and um, I hope your network goes far, of course if I can help in any way, let me know. And am thinking about doing… Oh, I haven't figured out a name, um, like a chick podcasting or something in January, that's kind of like just a month of all we're doing is sharing podcasts by women, every day in different forms to kind of just pushed it narrative of like there are different podcasts, there are all kinds of things in like retweeting and re-posting so people can kind of mm-hmm <affirmative> find different things. I like that. Um, so that's something am working on and I'll contact you, but I am about women in podcasting as you are and I do think we need to expand our presence. I absolutely agree and I've enjoyed this conversation. It was so fun. <laugh> <unk:Chuckles> So let me know whatever I can do to support you in your efforts because am here. <unk:chuckles> oh, thank you and have a good rest of your day. Thank you. You too. As I did say before we are coming up that I'll be wrapping up this podcast as it is now in um, in December, so if you wanna to be a guest or anything that you want to contribute or something you wanted me to talk about on this podcast, please let me know because I will do that, I will include it. You can email me @podcastandcoloratgmail.com. I don't always respond to emails, but I do see emails <laugh> and um, if you asked me a question, I will respond. I am this week responding to all emails that I've been saying am gonna respond to for months. Am so horrible at that, um, but I've just been trying to get my life together and other things have been happening. You know, life doesn't stop just because you would like to take a pause and try to catch up. It doesn't mean that I give you that time, <laugh> so am just basically running on a treadmill and am gonna keep going and everything is gonna come together as it should be. Thank you for listening to Podcasts and Color the Podcast and I'll see you in two weeks ish. <unk:silence> I am shutting down my motor site, um it'll be something different, I might just do special shops or different things that you can buy over time since a Podcast in color but as it is, it won't exist just like the Podcast, gotta change that for 2019. So if you're looking in getting one of the shirts and different things like that, um you should go ahead and do that, I will of course be highlighting anyone that's supports Podcast in color financially, so that's paytrium, paypal. If you donate through Podcastincolor.com or buying much. Um, the next month, our new website, so November I'll do that, December I'll do it for… usually I used, I used to say, I was just doing it for the first week, but I do it throughout the month, I will do that through the month of November, December most likely that will only be for that first weeks because I'll be highly… highlighting the top Podcast of 2018 in December and a home page and doing other things around that. And to bring up <laugh> the 2018 top Podcast, if you're looking to be on that list I'll make sure I link that in the Episode notes, I am taking submissions um, things to look at, people to consider and also I do 50, I do a top 100 for Podcast in color. I do 50 myself and I reach out to other Podcasters and listeners for the other 50 if you wanna be one of those people, I have created a form so that I can look at however want to <inaudible> their different Podcast so we're not all doing the same Podcast, of course because the top 100 are still learn about more Podcast at the POC. I will link that form in the episode soon. So all am asking right now is, what is your top five? And you know, we'll kind Podcast and you would most likely highlight and as I said its just making sure that we're not saying this all, like all the people I choose aren't saying the same Podcast because that's not necessary in helping the discovery. And am all about helping discovery. So I'll link those two google forms in the episode notes, first google forms will be if you just wanna submit a Podcast to be considered for my top 50 of the top 100 and the second will be if you'd like to give your top five or top 10, depending on how people are ask to be considered to give theirs, that's how many I'll be excepting from people. So if the top five that you have… either top five or top 10 if you feel like, hey, I wish that my top five was known… this is the form that you wanna do, I promoted everywhere, people usually treat it, its a pretty big thing. And this is my third year doing it, that's kinda crazy. So third year I want this to be of course the biggest year and I hope that you contribute.