claim
string | positive
string | negative
string | post_id
string | post_title
string | post_text
string | post_timestamp
int64 | post_author
string | positive_comment_id
string | negative_comment_id
string | positive_comment_score
int64 | negative_comment_score
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|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
CMV: You shouldn’t expect children to take care of their parents when they are old
My argument is based on one belief or value. Having children should be expression of unconditional love. Children are not an investment or insurance for old age. If you want to have insurance, standard saving is much cheaper option. If you want your kids to take care of you that would mean that you taking care of them haven’t been unconditional.
Don’t get me wrong. If you want to take care of your parents or your children want to take care of you it is great. It means (hopefully) that you have raised your kids well and they love you unconditionally. But if you nag, pressure or use emotional blackmail to get your kids to take care of you then you are a bad person.
Then there are those situations where children are unwanted or unexpected. Here I cannot say that you should unconditionally love your kids. You still can but it is not requirement because having kids wasn’t your choice. But you have two options. Take care of them due sense of responsibility as a “penalty for the mistake” or give them up for adoption. I’m not judging anyone for doing this. But if you are one of these unfortunate people you know how much a burden it can be. You should know better not to put the same burden on the kids later on their lives by expecting them to take care of you.
To change my view show me how loving your wanted kid shouldn’t be unconditional or how putting a burden of care to unwanted recipient is a just option.
|
One of the reasons there I'd mass killings and kids that have trouble socializing is because grand parents are sent away and forgotten. If the relationship is toxic then I understand not wanting them around. It does to a village to rise a child and USA culture has lost sight of that.
|
Lol...not when Nigeria's Interest rate still pegs at 13.5% ...How will i survive if they dont take care of me if things get worst than how it is right now. Retirement Insurance is a shitty show in my country. I will rather invest in my kids so they can take care of me
|
e2ueq8
|
CMV: You shouldn’t expect children to take care of their parents when they are old
|
My argument is based on one belief or value. Having children should be expression of unconditional love. Children are not an investment or insurance for old age. If you want to have insurance, standard saving is much cheaper option. If you want your kids to take care of you that would mean that you taking care of them haven’t been unconditional.
Don’t get me wrong. If you want to take care of your parents or your children want to take care of you it is great. It means (hopefully) that you have raised your kids well and they love you unconditionally. But if you nag, pressure or use emotional blackmail to get your kids to take care of you then you are a bad person.
Then there are those situations where children are unwanted or unexpected. Here I cannot say that you should unconditionally love your kids. You still can but it is not requirement because having kids wasn’t your choice. But you have two options. Take care of them due sense of responsibility as a “penalty for the mistake” or give them up for adoption. I’m not judging anyone for doing this. But if you are one of these unfortunate people you know how much a burden it can be. You should know better not to put the same burden on the kids later on their lives by expecting them to take care of you.
To change my view show me how loving your wanted kid shouldn’t be unconditional or how putting a burden of care to unwanted recipient is a just option.
| 1,574,924,905
|
Z7-852
|
f8z1yak
|
f8ycbkz
| 2
| 1
|
CMV: the word "incel" is a baseless insult used by people to describe a certain political affiliation.
Incel means involuntary celibate which was coined by people to describe themselves and why they are not having sex and to point out that it is no fault of their own.
Incel is now thrown around to describe people on the right even when said people don't subscribe to said ideology, much like the word cuck is thrown around at people on the left.
Incel is not about a movement anymore but instead a disparaging remark to describe people of a certain political affiliation, when I see people called an incel 9 out of 10 it is someone describing a person who has right leaning views and is used to disregard their points to said discussion.
|
You've got it backwards. The right wing isn't associated with incels because of people using "incel" as an insult. Rather, the word "incel" itself [was appropriated by](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel) right-wing people who self-identified as incels. Eventually, the term "incel" came to be understood to refer to this right-wing online subculture specifically, which supplanted its previous meaning (i.e. the meaning of the term as it was originally understood by Alana and others in her online community). Now "incel" refers primarily to an online right-wing community characterized by "resentment, misanthropy, self-pity, self-loathing, misogyny, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex, and the endorsement of violence against sexually active people." But that's not because of anyone trying to use "incel" as an insult: that's because of the way self-identified incels act.
|
I’ve heard the term incel be tossed Around. It seems to me to be a modern generic term for dweeb or nerd, with no political tone to it. Which sites are you on that exclusively use the term incel to describe right wing nut jobs?
|
a8pqhh
|
CMV: the word "incel" is a baseless insult used by people to describe a certain political affiliation.
|
Incel means involuntary celibate which was coined by people to describe themselves and why they are not having sex and to point out that it is no fault of their own.
Incel is now thrown around to describe people on the right even when said people don't subscribe to said ideology, much like the word cuck is thrown around at people on the left.
Incel is not about a movement anymore but instead a disparaging remark to describe people of a certain political affiliation, when I see people called an incel 9 out of 10 it is someone describing a person who has right leaning views and is used to disregard their points to said discussion.
| 1,545,521,883
|
themarksmann
|
eccnyzn
|
eccn9dc
| 27
| 0
|
CMV: Freedom of speech means the right to have and express an opinion, not to insult random people
I am not aware of how old days used to be. But what I do know that this world is not going in the right direction when it comes to freedom of speech and expression. The version of this 'freedom' that people are using essentially makes this world a worse place than it would have been.
Correct me if I'm wrong but freedom of speech means that you have the right to have and express an opinion without being silenced. It also kinda means that you have the right to spread and get information (unless it concerns the security of someone or a nation).
But in the modern world, this freedom has become an excuse to bully, abuse and insult people. Common people, offline or online, media, politicians, etc all use this freedom really really badly. Example from the world - Trump insulting and abusing people and journalists; Politicians insulting each other; Trevor Noah and other comedians insulting Trump, other politicians and people, PewDiePie insulting Indians in the name of T-Series, Indians insulting foreigners (calling Americans sluts, Chinese people Ching Chong, etc), people making offensive cartoons/memes/photoshopped pics of politicians (a guy made a pic of a politician marrying another politician); Eminem insulting presidents and other rappers; they insulting him back; racism, sexism and verbal abuse in online game servers, etc. (Let's not talk about the toxic debate between Liberals and Conservatives)
Tell me if I'm wrong but none of these are speeches or expression or opinion or criticism of any kind. They are cheap and uncivilised insults, abuses and, in many cases, outright bullying. They don't criticize anything or any action, they just insult people and call it 'freedom'.
Many people say 'right to offend and be offended'. Why? Why should we have the right to offend people? Why not criticize them? Why not protest them? Why just outright trolling, making offensive jokes about their personal lives.
Many people also say that I react too much and I should get a life and that if I have to stay in this world there will be lots like this. But why? Why shouldn't we fight for a better, civilized world? Why not a world of respecting people but just insulting people?
I know I sound like a total idealist, but why not strive for an ideal world?
|
Freedom works like this;
I have the right to swing my arm to and fro - But that right ends at your face - A right is not a right if exercising it causes damage to a person or a persons property
As it stands, words do not cause damage - No word uttered can break a leg or cut the skin, no phrase can smash your head in or stop your heart - There is no sentence I can say that would break the windows on your house or car.
The only place you do not have true freedom of speech is on places like Reddit, Facebook, YouTube - That's because these are private companies who have the full right to allow or disallow anyone they please for whatever reason they want - "No shirt, no shoes, no service" - Out in the public, in real life, from the comfort of your home or the exposed nature of the soap box - You should be allowed to say whatever you like.
I have a strong contention with one line you put in - "Why not a world of respecting people but just insulting people?" - Easy answer; Because humans are different and always will be different. You want a world where no one insults the other? You've either gotta outlaw insults (Fascist af) or somehow make everyone think the same way and how do you enforce state-sponsored thought? (Totalitarian af) - Both of these existences seem far more immoral to me than a world where some random dude is allowed to call me a cunt - Because I don't care when some dude calls me a cunt, but I probably would care if I could get sent to jail for saying the wrong thing or thinking the wrong way.
|
If you restrict Freedom of Speech in such a way, things get dangerous. Sure, you can say insults aren’t allowed. But then who decides what qualifies as an insult? The government? So what happens if a journalist writes a critical piece on a politician, and they call the politician out for some flaw, say they call him “authoritarian.” The president then could say “that’s an insult” and throw the journalist in jail, thereby suppressing legitimate criticism. Peaceful protestors could get persecuted by the government
That example has already happened in the past btw. President John Adams created a law banning criticism of the high office, and he used it as an excuse to throw his political rivals in jail. Adams obviously did not win re-election. Imagine how Trump could use this to suppress the media he doesn’t like
The ONLY form of free speech that should not be allowed is direct threats, say holding a gun and threatening to shoot people. And we already have a law for that, the inflammatory speech ban. But unless the speech is designed to incite immediate violence, can’t be over the phone btw, it is not prohibited
Free speech was made to protect us from government tyranny, and we should keep it
Edit: Let me add that the government already does try to __encourage__ not insulting people as you suggested. Schools have mandatory anti-bullying and anti bias seminars. They also show TV ads. It’s just that this stuff doesn’t really work that well, so the only way to get to your goal would be enforcement.
|
b4jt13
|
CMV: Freedom of speech means the right to have and express an opinion, not to insult random people
|
I am not aware of how old days used to be. But what I do know that this world is not going in the right direction when it comes to freedom of speech and expression. The version of this 'freedom' that people are using essentially makes this world a worse place than it would have been.
Correct me if I'm wrong but freedom of speech means that you have the right to have and express an opinion without being silenced. It also kinda means that you have the right to spread and get information (unless it concerns the security of someone or a nation).
But in the modern world, this freedom has become an excuse to bully, abuse and insult people. Common people, offline or online, media, politicians, etc all use this freedom really really badly. Example from the world - Trump insulting and abusing people and journalists; Politicians insulting each other; Trevor Noah and other comedians insulting Trump, other politicians and people, PewDiePie insulting Indians in the name of T-Series, Indians insulting foreigners (calling Americans sluts, Chinese people Ching Chong, etc), people making offensive cartoons/memes/photoshopped pics of politicians (a guy made a pic of a politician marrying another politician); Eminem insulting presidents and other rappers; they insulting him back; racism, sexism and verbal abuse in online game servers, etc. (Let's not talk about the toxic debate between Liberals and Conservatives)
Tell me if I'm wrong but none of these are speeches or expression or opinion or criticism of any kind. They are cheap and uncivilised insults, abuses and, in many cases, outright bullying. They don't criticize anything or any action, they just insult people and call it 'freedom'.
Many people say 'right to offend and be offended'. Why? Why should we have the right to offend people? Why not criticize them? Why not protest them? Why just outright trolling, making offensive jokes about their personal lives.
Many people also say that I react too much and I should get a life and that if I have to stay in this world there will be lots like this. But why? Why shouldn't we fight for a better, civilized world? Why not a world of respecting people but just insulting people?
I know I sound like a total idealist, but why not strive for an ideal world?
| 1,553,351,687
|
Suradoe
|
ej7615o
|
ej73p1d
| 6
| 3
|
CMV:Men have just as much right to "Abort" A child as the mother.
If they don't want to child but the mother does that is fine. However the mother going on to have the child even after the father says he does not want it should cause the father to have no legal obligation to pay for or care for the child. And while more controversial and i don't really know personally how this is, but if the mother wants to abort but the father wants to keep the child, assuming the mother is only aborting because they do not want to keep the child, she should be encouraged/required to give birth to the child. It is the fathers child just as much as it is the mothers though so he should have that right. (Issue with this is it induces physical pain and can have long term lasting effects so this if very gray area, however if the mother is fine with giving birth and just doesn't want the child the she should have to) I should have noted this is not the main topic, again gray area and I have no hard stance
|
Men aren't the ones that the child is growing in, so no, men have less skin in the game.
If men could have a 'financial abortion', it would result in men not having to care about birth control. If the woman gets pregnant, that's no longer his problem, so he just won't think about it. This would either result in more abortions, more children in the adoption system, or more children with single parents.
Also, if men can financially abort, and also women are forced to give birth if the man wants the child, this actively puts the interests of men over a women's health. That's awful.
|
Because he created him ?
If you create a bomb in your garden, and cops come and see it, you'll have to pay for what you've done, even if it is proven that you did not wanted to use it.
You know that putting a girl pregnant carry the risk of her keeping the kid and you paying for it, that's the law. If she abort, you're OK, if she don't you pay. That's exactly as creating bombs : you know that creating bombs carry the risk of being arrested, if you dismantle it before anybody see it, you're safe, else you are going to court.
You don't want a kid neither paying ? Use protection, do a vasectomy, oral sex, there are tons of possibilities.
|
9fiahr
|
CMV:Men have just as much right to "Abort" A child as the mother.
|
If they don't want to child but the mother does that is fine. However the mother going on to have the child even after the father says he does not want it should cause the father to have no legal obligation to pay for or care for the child. And while more controversial and i don't really know personally how this is, but if the mother wants to abort but the father wants to keep the child, assuming the mother is only aborting because they do not want to keep the child, she should be encouraged/required to give birth to the child. It is the fathers child just as much as it is the mothers though so he should have that right. (Issue with this is it induces physical pain and can have long term lasting effects so this if very gray area, however if the mother is fine with giving birth and just doesn't want the child the she should have to) I should have noted this is not the main topic, again gray area and I have no hard stance
| 1,536,847,701
|
Cowpancakes
|
e5wmhek
|
e5wmcm8
| 7
| 3
|
CMV: Freedom of speech means the right to have and express an opinion, not to insult random people
I am not aware of how old days used to be. But what I do know that this world is not going in the right direction when it comes to freedom of speech and expression. The version of this 'freedom' that people are using essentially makes this world a worse place than it would have been.
Correct me if I'm wrong but freedom of speech means that you have the right to have and express an opinion without being silenced. It also kinda means that you have the right to spread and get information (unless it concerns the security of someone or a nation).
But in the modern world, this freedom has become an excuse to bully, abuse and insult people. Common people, offline or online, media, politicians, etc all use this freedom really really badly. Example from the world - Trump insulting and abusing people and journalists; Politicians insulting each other; Trevor Noah and other comedians insulting Trump, other politicians and people, PewDiePie insulting Indians in the name of T-Series, Indians insulting foreigners (calling Americans sluts, Chinese people Ching Chong, etc), people making offensive cartoons/memes/photoshopped pics of politicians (a guy made a pic of a politician marrying another politician); Eminem insulting presidents and other rappers; they insulting him back; racism, sexism and verbal abuse in online game servers, etc. (Let's not talk about the toxic debate between Liberals and Conservatives)
Tell me if I'm wrong but none of these are speeches or expression or opinion or criticism of any kind. They are cheap and uncivilised insults, abuses and, in many cases, outright bullying. They don't criticize anything or any action, they just insult people and call it 'freedom'.
Many people say 'right to offend and be offended'. Why? Why should we have the right to offend people? Why not criticize them? Why not protest them? Why just outright trolling, making offensive jokes about their personal lives.
Many people also say that I react too much and I should get a life and that if I have to stay in this world there will be lots like this. But why? Why shouldn't we fight for a better, civilized world? Why not a world of respecting people but just insulting people?
I know I sound like a total idealist, but why not strive for an ideal world?
|
So, like you, I like civility. I don't want to see mean-spirited, petty attacks on people. I think a lot of the discourse on both sides of any issue is counter productive.
But the alternative is having someone decide WHICH speech is too mean. That's how government censors work. And that's how dictatorships work.
Look at North Korea. They claim that "for harmony" any criticism of the Supreme Leader is banned. That's not healthy if you believe that open discourse is the best way to run a government.
There is no system where you don't have someone arbitrarily deciding what is and isn't ok. And if it's the government making those decisions, then there is always incentive to silence one side over the other.
That's why "Freedom of Speech" applies only to the government silencing. Let others post what they want (subject to libel/slander laws) - but I don't want the government deciding what is offensive - because it can't be done fairly.
|
Who defines what fits the criteria?
|
b4jt13
|
CMV: Freedom of speech means the right to have and express an opinion, not to insult random people
|
I am not aware of how old days used to be. But what I do know that this world is not going in the right direction when it comes to freedom of speech and expression. The version of this 'freedom' that people are using essentially makes this world a worse place than it would have been.
Correct me if I'm wrong but freedom of speech means that you have the right to have and express an opinion without being silenced. It also kinda means that you have the right to spread and get information (unless it concerns the security of someone or a nation).
But in the modern world, this freedom has become an excuse to bully, abuse and insult people. Common people, offline or online, media, politicians, etc all use this freedom really really badly. Example from the world - Trump insulting and abusing people and journalists; Politicians insulting each other; Trevor Noah and other comedians insulting Trump, other politicians and people, PewDiePie insulting Indians in the name of T-Series, Indians insulting foreigners (calling Americans sluts, Chinese people Ching Chong, etc), people making offensive cartoons/memes/photoshopped pics of politicians (a guy made a pic of a politician marrying another politician); Eminem insulting presidents and other rappers; they insulting him back; racism, sexism and verbal abuse in online game servers, etc. (Let's not talk about the toxic debate between Liberals and Conservatives)
Tell me if I'm wrong but none of these are speeches or expression or opinion or criticism of any kind. They are cheap and uncivilised insults, abuses and, in many cases, outright bullying. They don't criticize anything or any action, they just insult people and call it 'freedom'.
Many people say 'right to offend and be offended'. Why? Why should we have the right to offend people? Why not criticize them? Why not protest them? Why just outright trolling, making offensive jokes about their personal lives.
Many people also say that I react too much and I should get a life and that if I have to stay in this world there will be lots like this. But why? Why shouldn't we fight for a better, civilized world? Why not a world of respecting people but just insulting people?
I know I sound like a total idealist, but why not strive for an ideal world?
| 1,553,351,687
|
Suradoe
|
ej73f6t
|
ej7362g
| 14
| 3
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
Yes, with our given physics, suffering is inevitable. But if god is omnipotent, he can create a universe with laws where no one has to die. Isn't that something the ultimate game player could do? Where conscious experience could still be a natural consequence of his laws, but no suffering ensues. From my understanding of physics and math, there's nothing preventing infinities, it's just not something we typically encounter or are aware of.
|
He is being a little shit don't listen to him
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3lq9bg
|
e3lq18m
| 37
| 8
|
CMV: Derek Chauvin did not receive a fair trial.
Note: I AM NOT DEFENDING DEREK CHAUVIN!!! He is a murderer and I do believe the jury was right to convict him. However I don’t believe he had a fair trial.
In america everyone is entitled to a fair trial. Meaning that you get a day in court with a jury that decides your fate. This means an Impartial jury - One that isn’t influenced by outsider actions. I don’t believe that derek chauvin received that.
Even before the verdict, the judge in the case refused to sequester jurors from media coverage and outside influences during the trial, and that the pressure conveyed to them was beyond intense.
2nd point: Politicians/protestors influencing the case. Biden commented that he hoped the jury would come to the ‘right’ conclusion. Maxine waters and blm kind of forced a guilty verdict. She said blm needed to get 'more confrontational' and I know she didn't mean any harm but it could have tainted the jury. Also blm protestors were outside of the courthouse which could have pressured the jury.
Do you really think that none of those factors influenced the juries decision? I don’t. Chauvin is entitled to a re-trial.
|
How would a re-trial be any more fair? Any prospective juror likely knows the circumstances surrounding the case. And how would sequestering the jury for a couple of weeks kept them from the knowledge of everything that happened in the last year?
If you don’t think Chauvin got a fair trial because of those circumstances, I don’t think it’s possible for him to get one unless you manage to find a jury of people who were living alone in the woods for the last year.
|
>Biden commented that he hoped the jury would come to the ‘right’ conclusion.
the jury was sequestered when he made that comment. the jury didn't hear it.
|
mvtono
|
CMV: Derek Chauvin did not receive a fair trial.
|
Note: I AM NOT DEFENDING DEREK CHAUVIN!!! He is a murderer and I do believe the jury was right to convict him. However I don’t believe he had a fair trial.
In america everyone is entitled to a fair trial. Meaning that you get a day in court with a jury that decides your fate. This means an Impartial jury - One that isn’t influenced by outsider actions. I don’t believe that derek chauvin received that.
Even before the verdict, the judge in the case refused to sequester jurors from media coverage and outside influences during the trial, and that the pressure conveyed to them was beyond intense.
2nd point: Politicians/protestors influencing the case. Biden commented that he hoped the jury would come to the ‘right’ conclusion. Maxine waters and blm kind of forced a guilty verdict. She said blm needed to get 'more confrontational' and I know she didn't mean any harm but it could have tainted the jury. Also blm protestors were outside of the courthouse which could have pressured the jury.
Do you really think that none of those factors influenced the juries decision? I don’t. Chauvin is entitled to a re-trial.
| 1,619,052,520
|
Gensokyofartsniffer
|
gve4gt7
|
gve48vm
| 14
| 9
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
"To live is to suffer, to survive is to find meaning in the suffering."
-Friedrich Nietzsche, atheist philosopher
Life sucks. But from my perspective, you would never have happiness without suffering. This is why perfection is so nonsensical a concept to me. But remember that meaning is out there. It might not make you happy, but it will give you a reason to keep going.
|
Evolution isn’t about purpose, it’s more about the effect of accidents on successful reproduction. It’s reasonable to suggest that the collection of accidents that led to the existence of sadness created a situation that helped signal to the larger community that support was needed, thereby helping sad people recover and eventually increase their odds of reproducing. But that doesn’t imply that it’s a designed system that should work consistently.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
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joshingkatie
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e3lqlwu
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e3lp1a9
| 126
| 59
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CMV: The movie Idiocracy promotes the idea of eugenics
When I first saw the movie Idiocracy I thought it was hilarious and I thought the premise at the beginning made enough logical sense that I didn't feel the need to question it.
This all changed when I learned about the Kallikak family. Basically a psychologist named Henry Goddard who believed that feeble mindedness is a trait that is inheritable. His "study" went that he studied a family tree all the way back to an American revolutionary war solider called Martin Kallikak who had children with two separate women - which is what causes the tree to split.
One side of the trees consists of respectable citizens and the other side of the tree consisted of disreputable and feeble minded persons. He used this to essentially promote eugenics as a solution to this feeble mindedness epidemic.
Henry Goddard and the promoters of eugenics essentially thought that if feebleminded people continue to have children, it will lead to the downfall of society. Remember this line because it is important comes up later.
Prominent members of science and academia become staunch supporters of eugenics. Eugenics became mainstream in the US, to the point where people (usually the poor) who were arbitrarily deemed to be feeble minded were forcibly sterilized in the US itself. In the US during the height of feeble mindedness hysteria, up to 50,000 Americans were forcibly sterilized. These ideas eventually spread to Germany which formed the basis of the holocaust of 6 million Jewish people.
Now back to the movie. There are two families at the beginning. One clearly well off and presented as "civilized" and the other clearly poor and presented as uncivilized. Then the movie essentially says that because the poor and uncivilized families of the world have more children than the rich and civilized, society will reach its downfall. Is that not the same message that Henry Goddard promoted when he pushed eugenics onto the world, which sadly resulted in the death and sterilization of millions?
Does this not mean the movie Idiocracy is essentially promoting eugenics?
Edit: Things that won't change my view include saying that it's just a movie, or just a comedy. I get that this movie won't convince the world to bring that eugenics, but my CMV isn't about the societal implications of this movie, but it's rather discussing the premise of the movie itself. Thanks!
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The movie doesnt promote eugenics for one simple reason. At The end of The movie, Then President Not Sure, makes a speech saying that people used to consume more intelligent Entertainment such as books and that they would Value Education and intelligence rather than riducule it. He also says that if society would have valued intelligence and people would do more things such as reading Then society wouldnt have become so dumb. Im paraphrasing a bit but that is The gist of his inaugeration speech. So The movie takes a very strong PRO nurture stance in the end and advocates for a more cognitively challeging culture and better Education system as The solution to that worlds problems. This is as anti eugenics as you can go.
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If you define eugenics broadly enough to mean anything that has the effect of improving the gene pool of the human race, and also think of it narrowly enough that you’re basically thinking of Nazis whenever it comes up, then you’re living directly on the slippery slope and you should relocate so that your property isn’t lost in a mudslide.
Planned Parenthood has been called eugenics. Hell, I found a thing that called the invention of the motorcar eugenics.
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94s3r1
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CMV: The movie Idiocracy promotes the idea of eugenics
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When I first saw the movie Idiocracy I thought it was hilarious and I thought the premise at the beginning made enough logical sense that I didn't feel the need to question it.
This all changed when I learned about the Kallikak family. Basically a psychologist named Henry Goddard who believed that feeble mindedness is a trait that is inheritable. His "study" went that he studied a family tree all the way back to an American revolutionary war solider called Martin Kallikak who had children with two separate women - which is what causes the tree to split.
One side of the trees consists of respectable citizens and the other side of the tree consisted of disreputable and feeble minded persons. He used this to essentially promote eugenics as a solution to this feeble mindedness epidemic.
Henry Goddard and the promoters of eugenics essentially thought that if feebleminded people continue to have children, it will lead to the downfall of society. Remember this line because it is important comes up later.
Prominent members of science and academia become staunch supporters of eugenics. Eugenics became mainstream in the US, to the point where people (usually the poor) who were arbitrarily deemed to be feeble minded were forcibly sterilized in the US itself. In the US during the height of feeble mindedness hysteria, up to 50,000 Americans were forcibly sterilized. These ideas eventually spread to Germany which formed the basis of the holocaust of 6 million Jewish people.
Now back to the movie. There are two families at the beginning. One clearly well off and presented as "civilized" and the other clearly poor and presented as uncivilized. Then the movie essentially says that because the poor and uncivilized families of the world have more children than the rich and civilized, society will reach its downfall. Is that not the same message that Henry Goddard promoted when he pushed eugenics onto the world, which sadly resulted in the death and sterilization of millions?
Does this not mean the movie Idiocracy is essentially promoting eugenics?
Edit: Things that won't change my view include saying that it's just a movie, or just a comedy. I get that this movie won't convince the world to bring that eugenics, but my CMV isn't about the societal implications of this movie, but it's rather discussing the premise of the movie itself. Thanks!
| 1,533,478,174
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[deleted]
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e3ndgpf
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e3nbtfx
| 26
| 2
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
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As a non religious individual I often consider the fact that a "god" may very well exist, but considering the scope of both power and persuasion an individual of a god calibre would employ, it would be reasonable to assume that such an entity would view us as interesting and important as you would a single celled organism.
While this god may very well know of our existence it would be largely uninterested and or completely ignorant of us as individual entities. It would be akin to you throwing away a moldy loaf of bread, you may well be away that there are billions of living organisms there, but youre more concerned with having to run to the market again. Sure, you could easily give that mold culture the means to survive indefinetly and even propser, does this make you a wicked god?
You can see this type of escalates behavior even among humans, those that rise to staggering levels of wealth usually can see and comprehend the plight of the poor, but tend to offer little or no compassion or understanding, something I'm sure in your situarion can attest to.
Its common of humanity to perceive ourselves as important despite the fact that in the grand scheme of things, we probably, as cynical as it may sound, just arent.
As far as the universe being indifferent to suffering, you're likely right, as a whole.
But even small acts of kindness on individual basis can profoundly change that. For what its worth, I took the few spare moments i had to up vote everything I could find of yours to get you the karma needed for your post. I too, among far to many others are in a situation similar to your own. I wish you well through all of the trials and tribulations you will endure, and hope to read about how you conquered them in a post in a few years time.
TLDR: god, gods(or God) may very well exist and we just aren't significant enough to matter.
edits: some grammar mistakes I made on phone.
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Have you ever played a computer game like *The Sims* or *Cities: Skylines*? Perhaps *X-COM* or some other strategy game where you play as an eye in the sky or, kind of a god? I'm asking because that's the closest we can become like a god. Otherwise I could compare it to being a teacher or a parent, or any role where there's responsibility for other people who are growing.
Humans don't like suffering. Animals don't like suffering. But some rules of existence can't be fathomed otherwise. Even if every sentient being just ate rocks, they'd still have to compete for rocks. Then we'd eat all the rocks on a planet over time and die, or shrivel the planet so much. This example is pretty ridiculous but that's all we really have, given what we know about life. And in the end, things still need to die.
Some suffering is tangibly worse than other suffering, but the human brain hasn't adapted to somehow understand the span of suffering. When someone rich can't afford a third BMW, if they've only known comfort, then their brain is going to fire off the same signals. It's not fair to everyone else and it really isn't fair to them that they have to internally struggle over something they have no control over in that sense. But the only way to be otherwise would to have everyone be omniscient in some sense. Then we'd just be a bunch of gods fighting, which is exactly what happens in mythology anyway. It's what happens to God in the Bible when he gets really upset and angry at people.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3lrxbr
|
e3lowxy
| 584
| 39
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
If there is no god than who am I talking to?
Here is the plan brother. Stop looking for people to help you, like you've noticed they're mostly living paycheck to paycheck. Look for people suffering in similar ways that you are. This is called a community of vulnerability and they can be quite powerful. Once you find enough people you can all contribute a little money to get a high-powered lawyer or maybe a congressman- I don't know it's your life and you're God so you can figure it out. Once you get the ball rolling your "Christian" "friends" might contribute with donations or volunteering. But your core support will be from the others in your situation. God is a social construct, so reconstruct her in your favor. Lead the holy crusade. I believe in you.
|
Sorry, u/kittyfox3 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
> **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1).
If you would like to appeal, [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+kittyfox3&message=kittyfox3+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/94k9lf/-/e3ls3x4/\)+because...). Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3ltm68
|
e3ltgjz
| 3
| 1
|
CMV: The Struts/Kesha's song "Body Talks" is just as rapey as Robin Thicke's "Blurred Lines"
Maybe this is an unpopular opinion but I love Kesha, so when a new song featuring her came on the radio I was excited. It's pretty upbeat and fun, but there are some parts that are *seriously* suspect, which really surprised me. The second half of the chorus says:
>"You can pretend you don't wanna know
>But I read the signs from your head to your toes
>Yeah, you don't need to say a word 'cause
>Ooh, ooh your body talks"
That just seems... really suspect to me. So s/he's supposed to be pretending they aren't into it? It just feels to me that's pushing into the "I know you want it" category that people got upset about a few years ago. Clearly the singers know better, because they can see the body language... I guess. There's also a part that is specifically sung by Kesha:
>"You can try to hide it but you know you can't deny it!"
which, again, seems super susp. I feel like the idea is supposed to be that this person is just shy/coy, and their body language shows they want to get with the singers too, but I think that was the idea behind Blurred Lines too, so I'm seeing the same thing here. They even both have lines that excuse the behavior, with Blurred Lines'
>"If you can't read from the same page
>Maybe I'm going deaf
>Maybe I'm going blind
>Maybe I'm out of my mind"
And Body Talks'
>"Your lips are a conversation
>That face is a song
>If it's my imagination
>Stop me if I'm wrong"
So to me there's two options. One, they're both songs with some pretty poor wording that are mostly about getting a person out of their shell to be with someone they obviously want to be with, or Two, Kesha, someone who has actually experienced sexual abuse, willingly took part in a song that has some super rapey vibes. If someone can change my mind I would gladly hear it.
|
I will admit they are both a bit rapey, but one far more than the other. For one, in body talks, the line "If it's my imagination stop me if I'm wrong" is implying that despite body language, she is still asking the other party to give consent before proceeding further. Conversely, there is no mention of consent in blurred lines. Also consider these lines:
> OK now he was close, tried to domesticate you
But you're an animal, baby, it's in your nature
Just let me liberate you
This could definitely be interpreted as something along the lines of the girl being molested and being told she deserves it and must accept it due to her nature. Even more troubling is this:
> Baby can you breathe? I got this from Jamaica
It always works for me, Dakota to Decatur, uh huh
In the context of the rest of the song, this seems like he is talking about giving a girl a date rape drug and being concerned that she is still alive afterwards.
The way I see it, Body Talks is a song about a singer being forward sexually with a fan who has given her signals through body language that he would like to reciprocate sexually, but with the caveat that she still asks for verbal consent.
Blurred lines seems to be a song about a date rapist who cannot see themselves in the wrong and would sooner believe that they are "deaf, blind, or crazy"
|
There are always more than two options. There are 4 people that have songwriting credits on the original version.
Some options:
* they wrote different parts and didn't notice it was all rapey
* they all worked together and didn't notice
* they were feeling rapey and wrote a rapey song
* they looked at what was popular on charts (rap) and made it similar, happened to be rapey
* they wrote it to be rapey on purpose to try and get attention and sales
Options for kesha's part
* someone paid her X thousand dollars and she just tracked the vocals real and didn't pay attention
* she didn't think it was provocative
* she saw it was provocative but acceptable
* she realized it was borderline but accepted it for the potential gain
* she recorded a rapey song on purpose disregarding her traumatic past (unlikely imo)
|
a8ofo6
|
CMV: The Struts/Kesha's song "Body Talks" is just as rapey as Robin Thicke's "Blurred Lines"
|
Maybe this is an unpopular opinion but I love Kesha, so when a new song featuring her came on the radio I was excited. It's pretty upbeat and fun, but there are some parts that are *seriously* suspect, which really surprised me. The second half of the chorus says:
>"You can pretend you don't wanna know
>But I read the signs from your head to your toes
>Yeah, you don't need to say a word 'cause
>Ooh, ooh your body talks"
That just seems... really suspect to me. So s/he's supposed to be pretending they aren't into it? It just feels to me that's pushing into the "I know you want it" category that people got upset about a few years ago. Clearly the singers know better, because they can see the body language... I guess. There's also a part that is specifically sung by Kesha:
>"You can try to hide it but you know you can't deny it!"
which, again, seems super susp. I feel like the idea is supposed to be that this person is just shy/coy, and their body language shows they want to get with the singers too, but I think that was the idea behind Blurred Lines too, so I'm seeing the same thing here. They even both have lines that excuse the behavior, with Blurred Lines'
>"If you can't read from the same page
>Maybe I'm going deaf
>Maybe I'm going blind
>Maybe I'm out of my mind"
And Body Talks'
>"Your lips are a conversation
>That face is a song
>If it's my imagination
>Stop me if I'm wrong"
So to me there's two options. One, they're both songs with some pretty poor wording that are mostly about getting a person out of their shell to be with someone they obviously want to be with, or Two, Kesha, someone who has actually experienced sexual abuse, willingly took part in a song that has some super rapey vibes. If someone can change my mind I would gladly hear it.
| 1,545,512,486
|
TheSpaceCoresDad
|
ecchq9b
|
eccedbn
| 9
| 0
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
I’m a Christian, and my stance on this is that almost all negative things on this earth are products of free will. Whether it’s the pollution in the air causing cancer, earthquakes from fracking, or bad decisions we make with our diets.
As far as all the “it’s God’s plan” stuff Christians always say. I think it’s a phrase thrown around by people promoting the lie of “when you become a Christian, life gets better.” That’s absolutely not the case 100% of the time.
Like others have said, I’m not trying to convince you to believe in God. I think that’s between a person and God, and some people need an experience to believe.
Something I’ve always remembered was what my dad said when he had esophageal cancer:
“Don’t pray that I’m healed, pray that God can use me in a way that benefits others, even if it means using my death to help someone else.”
James 1:2-3 is one of my favorite verses when I’m facing tough times.
I hope things can improve for you.
|
Have you ever played a computer game like *The Sims* or *Cities: Skylines*? Perhaps *X-COM* or some other strategy game where you play as an eye in the sky or, kind of a god? I'm asking because that's the closest we can become like a god. Otherwise I could compare it to being a teacher or a parent, or any role where there's responsibility for other people who are growing.
Humans don't like suffering. Animals don't like suffering. But some rules of existence can't be fathomed otherwise. Even if every sentient being just ate rocks, they'd still have to compete for rocks. Then we'd eat all the rocks on a planet over time and die, or shrivel the planet so much. This example is pretty ridiculous but that's all we really have, given what we know about life. And in the end, things still need to die.
Some suffering is tangibly worse than other suffering, but the human brain hasn't adapted to somehow understand the span of suffering. When someone rich can't afford a third BMW, if they've only known comfort, then their brain is going to fire off the same signals. It's not fair to everyone else and it really isn't fair to them that they have to internally struggle over something they have no control over in that sense. But the only way to be otherwise would to have everyone be omniscient in some sense. Then we'd just be a bunch of gods fighting, which is exactly what happens in mythology anyway. It's what happens to God in the Bible when he gets really upset and angry at people.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3lr6qu
|
e3lowxy
| 96
| 39
|
CMV: The Prophet Muhammad, claimed under Islam as the Most Moral of All Men, was a child rapist.
The hadiths make it clear that he took his wife Aisha for marriage when she was 6. Many Muhammad apologists try to say she was actually much older and the Hadiths in question can't be trusted since they aren't "the word of Allah".. even though many are first hand accounts of the girl herself. By following the logic that the hadiths can't be trusted then we would have little to no knowledge of Muhammad himself and also getting rid of the hadiths turns the Quran into mound of disconnected contextless writings. The Hadith's in question :
* Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151
* 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Sahih Muslim 8:3311
* A’ishah said : I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in." Sunan Abu Dawud 4913 (Ahmad Hasan Ref)
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls." (Sahih) Sunan an-Nasa'i 4:26:3380
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "I used to play with dolls when I was with the Messenger of Allah, and he used to bring my friends to me to play with me." (Sahih) Sunan Ibn Majah 3:9:198
* Aisha said she was nine years old when the act of consummation took place and she had her dolls with her. Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol. 2, p 77
Many defenders also like to point to the context at the time being normal for child brides to take place. Agreed! It was! However again he is a prophet and he is the most moral of all men, there is no way to in todays day and age give him a pass and say its ok to that he only be held to the standards of the society around him at the time, He was founding an entire religion, he was a "holy man" so he should be rightly held to a higher standard, to which he has failed.
​
\*EDIT\* Please see my reply to u/[Subtleiaint](https://www.reddit.com/user/Subtleiaint/) for extensive additional sources
\*EDIT2\* Alright been replying for the better part of 4 hours, plenty of good discussions. Also I want to make it clear that while pointing out that Muhammad may have engaged in some very problematic practices, I'm not attempting to make a blanket commentary on modern day Islam or modern day Muslims, so for those of you that are trying, please stop turning it into that. That said I will have to come back later to continue the discussions and replies.
|
Many marriages during that time were married young. Any man with a conscious would wait until the girl could safely carry a child. I am not defending this practice in any way. But old used to be 40! So you cannot really judge people from that time on today's standards. Women were considered less important than their war horses.. Which is sad..
|
It is actually legal for an adult to marry a child in the US, and only in recent history did it become a crime for a husband to force himself on his wife. Given the pushback on rape laws in the US I think it's safe to say this isn't nearly as universally condemnable as you or OP seem to believe.
|
mvqyoq
|
CMV: The Prophet Muhammad, claimed under Islam as the Most Moral of All Men, was a child rapist.
|
The hadiths make it clear that he took his wife Aisha for marriage when she was 6. Many Muhammad apologists try to say she was actually much older and the Hadiths in question can't be trusted since they aren't "the word of Allah".. even though many are first hand accounts of the girl herself. By following the logic that the hadiths can't be trusted then we would have little to no knowledge of Muhammad himself and also getting rid of the hadiths turns the Quran into mound of disconnected contextless writings. The Hadith's in question :
* Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151
* 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Sahih Muslim 8:3311
* A’ishah said : I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in." Sunan Abu Dawud 4913 (Ahmad Hasan Ref)
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls." (Sahih) Sunan an-Nasa'i 4:26:3380
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "I used to play with dolls when I was with the Messenger of Allah, and he used to bring my friends to me to play with me." (Sahih) Sunan Ibn Majah 3:9:198
* Aisha said she was nine years old when the act of consummation took place and she had her dolls with her. Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol. 2, p 77
Many defenders also like to point to the context at the time being normal for child brides to take place. Agreed! It was! However again he is a prophet and he is the most moral of all men, there is no way to in todays day and age give him a pass and say its ok to that he only be held to the standards of the society around him at the time, He was founding an entire religion, he was a "holy man" so he should be rightly held to a higher standard, to which he has failed.
​
\*EDIT\* Please see my reply to u/[Subtleiaint](https://www.reddit.com/user/Subtleiaint/) for extensive additional sources
\*EDIT2\* Alright been replying for the better part of 4 hours, plenty of good discussions. Also I want to make it clear that while pointing out that Muhammad may have engaged in some very problematic practices, I'm not attempting to make a blanket commentary on modern day Islam or modern day Muslims, so for those of you that are trying, please stop turning it into that. That said I will have to come back later to continue the discussions and replies.
| 1,619,043,608
|
Drewsef916
|
gvduw4n
|
gvduk8m
| 7
| -4
|
CMV: Derek Chauvin did not receive a fair trial.
Note: I AM NOT DEFENDING DEREK CHAUVIN!!! He is a murderer and I do believe the jury was right to convict him. However I don’t believe he had a fair trial.
In america everyone is entitled to a fair trial. Meaning that you get a day in court with a jury that decides your fate. This means an Impartial jury - One that isn’t influenced by outsider actions. I don’t believe that derek chauvin received that.
Even before the verdict, the judge in the case refused to sequester jurors from media coverage and outside influences during the trial, and that the pressure conveyed to them was beyond intense.
2nd point: Politicians/protestors influencing the case. Biden commented that he hoped the jury would come to the ‘right’ conclusion. Maxine waters and blm kind of forced a guilty verdict. She said blm needed to get 'more confrontational' and I know she didn't mean any harm but it could have tainted the jury. Also blm protestors were outside of the courthouse which could have pressured the jury.
Do you really think that none of those factors influenced the juries decision? I don’t. Chauvin is entitled to a re-trial.
|
>Even before the verdict, the judge in the case refused to sequester jurors from media coverage and outside influences during the trial, and that the pressure conveyed to them was beyond intense.
That's not accurate. The jury was partially sequestered meaning they were allowed to go home at night, but outside if that they're monitored. During the deliberation, they were fully sequestered.
And as Judge Cahill noted, "Media reports during trial are likely to report on the evidence already presented and unlikely to unduly prejudice the jury… so full sequestration is not necessary.”
He also gave direct instruction to the jury "Try to avoid as much news coverage as possible,. I think I’ve said don’t watch any news about this case but given its prevalence and unexpected events like what we’ve just experienced, it's best to avoid all media coverage.”
>2nd point: Politicians/protestors influencing the case. Biden commented that he hoped the jury would come to the ‘right’ conclusion. Maxine waters and blm kind of forced a guilty verdict. She said blm needed to get 'more confrontational' and I know she didn't mean any harm but it could have tainted the jury.
I would point out here that the jury, and any jury that would have heard Chauvin's case, would seen a year of protests and political commentary beforehand. The jury was then whittled down to people who were believed to be not strongly opinionated and could put preexisting perceptions aside for the trial.
Even if they did hear these comments, and that's complete speculation, on what basis do we believe that the kind of people eligible for this jury would convict a man of murder because Maxine Waters and Joe Biden said that's what should happen?
>Do you really think that none of those factors influenced the juries decision
Yeah I do. The jury was pretty quick in their decision-making. No indication of reluctance. If there was any indecision here, the verdict wpuld have taken at least a few days of deliberation.
And if they wanted to give Chaivin a lesser charge, they could. If they really didn't think he was guilty of second degree murder. The prosecution gave them three charges, and they approved of not one, not two, but three.
|
There was never going to be a trial of Derek Chauvin where the background of what happened after George Floyd died wasn't in the jury's mind. The trial started after the footage had been released and the protests took over the country. So sequestering wouldn't have made the jury less conscious of this wider political movement.
He'll make appeals for sure. Maybe they'll be successful? But I don't think Chauvin deserves a trial where people aren't prejudiced by BLM and police killings, becuase that is simply impossible.
|
mvtono
|
CMV: Derek Chauvin did not receive a fair trial.
|
Note: I AM NOT DEFENDING DEREK CHAUVIN!!! He is a murderer and I do believe the jury was right to convict him. However I don’t believe he had a fair trial.
In america everyone is entitled to a fair trial. Meaning that you get a day in court with a jury that decides your fate. This means an Impartial jury - One that isn’t influenced by outsider actions. I don’t believe that derek chauvin received that.
Even before the verdict, the judge in the case refused to sequester jurors from media coverage and outside influences during the trial, and that the pressure conveyed to them was beyond intense.
2nd point: Politicians/protestors influencing the case. Biden commented that he hoped the jury would come to the ‘right’ conclusion. Maxine waters and blm kind of forced a guilty verdict. She said blm needed to get 'more confrontational' and I know she didn't mean any harm but it could have tainted the jury. Also blm protestors were outside of the courthouse which could have pressured the jury.
Do you really think that none of those factors influenced the juries decision? I don’t. Chauvin is entitled to a re-trial.
| 1,619,052,520
|
Gensokyofartsniffer
|
gve5z39
|
gve4o82
| 30
| 15
|
CMV: the word "incel" is a baseless insult used by people to describe a certain political affiliation.
Incel means involuntary celibate which was coined by people to describe themselves and why they are not having sex and to point out that it is no fault of their own.
Incel is now thrown around to describe people on the right even when said people don't subscribe to said ideology, much like the word cuck is thrown around at people on the left.
Incel is not about a movement anymore but instead a disparaging remark to describe people of a certain political affiliation, when I see people called an incel 9 out of 10 it is someone describing a person who has right leaning views and is used to disregard their points to said discussion.
|
https://www.reddit.com/r/yourmomshousepodcast/comments/a7jcwo/your_moms_house_podcast_ep_479_w_nikki_glaser/ec4t1ka
https://www.reddit.com/r/unpopularopinion/comments/a8oye9/the_word_incel_is_the_far_left_equivalent_of_cuck/eccgnbe
Here is two examples of people being called incels and both people are left leaning spouting the incel term. If you can find anything with an incel feel in those posts please do tell.
|
Anytime someone tries to advocate for a male-friendly approach to a social or legal issue, the word incel magically appears.
|
a8pqhh
|
CMV: the word "incel" is a baseless insult used by people to describe a certain political affiliation.
|
Incel means involuntary celibate which was coined by people to describe themselves and why they are not having sex and to point out that it is no fault of their own.
Incel is now thrown around to describe people on the right even when said people don't subscribe to said ideology, much like the word cuck is thrown around at people on the left.
Incel is not about a movement anymore but instead a disparaging remark to describe people of a certain political affiliation, when I see people called an incel 9 out of 10 it is someone describing a person who has right leaning views and is used to disregard their points to said discussion.
| 1,545,521,883
|
themarksmann
|
eccps7x
|
eccpk95
| 0
| -3
|
CMV: Modern art lacks true talent and is possibly, even, harmful to the medium as a whole
I feel that modern art lacks talent, as I said. I especially am referring to minimalism and the vein of modern art that revolves around everyday items (eg Duchamp's "Fountain", although even more mundane most of the time). Also, to a degree, I am referring to art which is meant to be streaks and splatters on the canvas, and also art that gains its momentum not particularly through quality but rather through quantity (eg the art piece made of a bunch of painted rectangular tiles at the 9/11 museum in NYC). Basically, a lot of modern art. Not all of it, cubism is okay, photography and even collages have some sort of artistic vision.
Basically, to begin explaining: I am not saying that these pieces are necessarily "worse" than classic paintings or things like that. My point - and this is especially true for Minimalism - is that, in comparison to traditional masters of drawing, painting, sculpting, where many of hours of work might go into a piece, modern art lacks the same investment and craftsmanship.
Now, one might say that that's the goal. Modern art's foundations, again returning to Duchamp's dadaism and even earlier deviations from the usual formula, lie in this idea of art being a tool of personal expression, and being something accessible by all, liberating an incredibly broad medium of expression from the standards of high society and the upper class. Art isn't what you say it is, art is anything. There's art in everything, something doesn't have to live up to your standards or compare to the works of the Renaissance to be considered "art". I understand this way of thinking.
However, isn't that, then, a celebration of inferiority? That an "artist" can take a ready-made product, like Duchamp's urinal, and present it as art? I understand the thinking and ideology behind it, but there is still no talent in the ability to buy an item and mount it on a pedestal. By celebrating the avant-garde, the shocking, the unexpected, the standardless... Is that not diluting art as a whole, and encouraging the decrease of true artistic talent?
I am not asking for someone to tell me the purpose and ideas behind modern art, but rather show me the talent. Show me that it takes effort, that it's not just a peculiar object and an emotional metaphor thought up in all of five minutes.
|
Going along with the premise that artistic talent = technical skill ( and assuming that the definition of artist also includes the members of their studio who do a lot of the production of the work )
While a lot of the works you are referencing require what appears to be low technical skill on a big picture level this does not consider the layering and subtle technique that goes into the work to make it look that way. Getting a painting to appear almost flat and crisp requires much more work to make it look that way than one would think. It's not as simple as slapping on a coat of paint and calling it a day. Rigorous brush control/ sanding layering often goes into the work to make it look minimal as possible in an attempt to reduce to piece to exclusively what the idea was about. So while the technical talent does not result in making a blob of paint look like a face, rather the opposite, it doesn't mean technical skill was not required to make them.
One anecdote/ example
Sol LeWitts work with gradients required anyone who was working on the piece to warm up for a number of hours before starting work that day. They would draw squares of varying densities, if they couldn't reproduce the exact shades required they were not allowed to work on the piece that day. And so while on a macro scale the piece was "just a gradient" and on the micro scale was "just scribbles" the technical skill required to create the artwork was incredibly high.
And a question (possibly a tangent).
If you look at the work of Chuck Close, he has the technical ability that can produce nearly exact replicas of what people look like. These " great artist" that you are putting on a pedestal due to their technical superiority over minimalist artists come no where close. If the skills and representational techniques have come to the point where an artist can essentially paint a photo what is the point of creating representational paintings?
|
I would say that minimalist art is the hardest art to create.
(1) The value and greatness of art is based, at least partially, on the feeling art produces.
(2) The ability to create master works of painting that look picture-perfect, after their initial conception, requires simply learning a technique. This technique could be extremely hard to learn, but it can be done in a robotic fashion (there were factories for producing the same types of artists for a long time).
(3) (Good) Modern art (Judd, Rothko, Andre) requires a great understanding of context and how it effects the person inside of it. This is a skill that is hard to teach and requires an attempted mastery of the ephemeral, the less than understood, unlike the robotic techniques one can learn to make art like the former masters.
(4) It is easy to make bad modern art, but to create something simple and powerful is no easy task. It is like writing a Hemingway sentence: it seems easy but is in fact extremely complex.
(5) Duchamp was a master of context, and that is the profundity of the artwork, not the urinal itself. The art is in the context not the object, or at least this shows how the context is interdependent with the object which is its own form of artistic magic. John Cage's 4' 33'' is another example of this; it literally takes the talents of a comatose person to play, but the artistic power is in its play with context rather than isolated content.
(6) I would argue that it is harder to play with context that content, and that it takes a lifetime of building up one's senses, rather than 5-10 years of robotic learning.
|
6qkbkr
|
CMV: Modern art lacks true talent and is possibly, even, harmful to the medium as a whole
|
I feel that modern art lacks talent, as I said. I especially am referring to minimalism and the vein of modern art that revolves around everyday items (eg Duchamp's "Fountain", although even more mundane most of the time). Also, to a degree, I am referring to art which is meant to be streaks and splatters on the canvas, and also art that gains its momentum not particularly through quality but rather through quantity (eg the art piece made of a bunch of painted rectangular tiles at the 9/11 museum in NYC). Basically, a lot of modern art. Not all of it, cubism is okay, photography and even collages have some sort of artistic vision.
Basically, to begin explaining: I am not saying that these pieces are necessarily "worse" than classic paintings or things like that. My point - and this is especially true for Minimalism - is that, in comparison to traditional masters of drawing, painting, sculpting, where many of hours of work might go into a piece, modern art lacks the same investment and craftsmanship.
Now, one might say that that's the goal. Modern art's foundations, again returning to Duchamp's dadaism and even earlier deviations from the usual formula, lie in this idea of art being a tool of personal expression, and being something accessible by all, liberating an incredibly broad medium of expression from the standards of high society and the upper class. Art isn't what you say it is, art is anything. There's art in everything, something doesn't have to live up to your standards or compare to the works of the Renaissance to be considered "art". I understand this way of thinking.
However, isn't that, then, a celebration of inferiority? That an "artist" can take a ready-made product, like Duchamp's urinal, and present it as art? I understand the thinking and ideology behind it, but there is still no talent in the ability to buy an item and mount it on a pedestal. By celebrating the avant-garde, the shocking, the unexpected, the standardless... Is that not diluting art as a whole, and encouraging the decrease of true artistic talent?
I am not asking for someone to tell me the purpose and ideas behind modern art, but rather show me the talent. Show me that it takes effort, that it's not just a peculiar object and an emotional metaphor thought up in all of five minutes.
| 1,501,453,129
|
DiosDeDairy
|
dkybw7t
|
dkxxmsq
| 8
| 3
|
CMV: People insisting on being referred to by genderqueer pronouns do not want equal treatment, they want special treatment.
While I can sympathize with mtf or ftm trans people, those who identify as genderqeer or non-binary, while also insisting on being referred to as ["they", "ze", "sie", "hir", "co", or "ey"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer#Pronouns_and_titles) do not want equal treatment, they want special treatment. Equal treatment would be treating them like we treat everyone else. We don't call other people (singular)"they", and we sure as hell don't call other people "ze" or "hir". I have zero sympathy for people who insist on being referred to by made up pronouns.
​
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>If I call you "she" when you're a man, you might correct me and point out that "he" is a more appropriate term regarding your gender. I can then use the pronoun you prefer, or I can continue to call you "she". Likewise, there are people who don't identify as a man or a woman, and therefore it doesn't make sense from their perspective to call them "he" or "she". These people might create a new pronoun and ask you to use it to make them more comfortable.
Asking you to call me a "he" is asking you to please treat me equally to other men. Asking you to call me a "hir" is asking you to treat me differently from other people. That's the main difference.
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If you call me an existing word that does not fit with what that existing word means, then no one is asking for special treatment by correcting you. If you ask me to call you a word I've never heard before that only applies to one person who I've only just met, and you suggest I'd better remember it and use it every time or else you will be offended, and you try to push to pass legislation that will alter how people are allowed to verbalize their thoughts, you had better bloody well plan on sticking around and being my friend so I actually have some motivation to do that for you or else you're going to hear me use some other words to describe you.
|
9fgvlr
|
CMV: People insisting on being referred to by genderqueer pronouns do not want equal treatment, they want special treatment.
|
While I can sympathize with mtf or ftm trans people, those who identify as genderqeer or non-binary, while also insisting on being referred to as ["they", "ze", "sie", "hir", "co", or "ey"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer#Pronouns_and_titles) do not want equal treatment, they want special treatment. Equal treatment would be treating them like we treat everyone else. We don't call other people (singular)"they", and we sure as hell don't call other people "ze" or "hir". I have zero sympathy for people who insist on being referred to by made up pronouns.
​
| 1,536,835,064
|
JoeVacs
|
e5wfnf7
|
e5we978
| 17
| 1
|
CMV: The Prophet Muhammad, claimed under Islam as the Most Moral of All Men, was a child rapist.
The hadiths make it clear that he took his wife Aisha for marriage when she was 6. Many Muhammad apologists try to say she was actually much older and the Hadiths in question can't be trusted since they aren't "the word of Allah".. even though many are first hand accounts of the girl herself. By following the logic that the hadiths can't be trusted then we would have little to no knowledge of Muhammad himself and also getting rid of the hadiths turns the Quran into mound of disconnected contextless writings. The Hadith's in question :
* Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151
* 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Sahih Muslim 8:3311
* A’ishah said : I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in." Sunan Abu Dawud 4913 (Ahmad Hasan Ref)
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls." (Sahih) Sunan an-Nasa'i 4:26:3380
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "I used to play with dolls when I was with the Messenger of Allah, and he used to bring my friends to me to play with me." (Sahih) Sunan Ibn Majah 3:9:198
* Aisha said she was nine years old when the act of consummation took place and she had her dolls with her. Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol. 2, p 77
Many defenders also like to point to the context at the time being normal for child brides to take place. Agreed! It was! However again he is a prophet and he is the most moral of all men, there is no way to in todays day and age give him a pass and say its ok to that he only be held to the standards of the society around him at the time, He was founding an entire religion, he was a "holy man" so he should be rightly held to a higher standard, to which he has failed.
​
\*EDIT\* Please see my reply to u/[Subtleiaint](https://www.reddit.com/user/Subtleiaint/) for extensive additional sources
\*EDIT2\* Alright been replying for the better part of 4 hours, plenty of good discussions. Also I want to make it clear that while pointing out that Muhammad may have engaged in some very problematic practices, I'm not attempting to make a blanket commentary on modern day Islam or modern day Muslims, so for those of you that are trying, please stop turning it into that. That said I will have to come back later to continue the discussions and replies.
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I'm not a Muslim and I don't think having sex with a nine year old is right under any circumstance, but the age of consent varies from place to place even today. If someone had sex with a 16 year old in Michigan that would be completely legal, but someone in another state might consider them a child rapist. I'm not disagreeing with you, but if you want your argument to be sound, you should specify why you think the age of consent is legitimate at some age and illegitimate at another.
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The fact that it is insulting and inflammatory,(don't really understand how it is bigoted if its in the book they preach of) it already shows they know it was wrong yet still worship him.
Edit: 15 is still to young for a full adult man to marry a girl.
Edit 2:Thr cultural context should not have an bearing on a man as we KNOW it is wrong so the most moral man should have known.
And prob did know and didn't do it, which is why that man wasn't Muhammed
|
mvqyoq
|
CMV: The Prophet Muhammad, claimed under Islam as the Most Moral of All Men, was a child rapist.
|
The hadiths make it clear that he took his wife Aisha for marriage when she was 6. Many Muhammad apologists try to say she was actually much older and the Hadiths in question can't be trusted since they aren't "the word of Allah".. even though many are first hand accounts of the girl herself. By following the logic that the hadiths can't be trusted then we would have little to no knowledge of Muhammad himself and also getting rid of the hadiths turns the Quran into mound of disconnected contextless writings. The Hadith's in question :
* Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151
* 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Sahih Muslim 8:3311
* A’ishah said : I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in." Sunan Abu Dawud 4913 (Ahmad Hasan Ref)
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls." (Sahih) Sunan an-Nasa'i 4:26:3380
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "I used to play with dolls when I was with the Messenger of Allah, and he used to bring my friends to me to play with me." (Sahih) Sunan Ibn Majah 3:9:198
* Aisha said she was nine years old when the act of consummation took place and she had her dolls with her. Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol. 2, p 77
Many defenders also like to point to the context at the time being normal for child brides to take place. Agreed! It was! However again he is a prophet and he is the most moral of all men, there is no way to in todays day and age give him a pass and say its ok to that he only be held to the standards of the society around him at the time, He was founding an entire religion, he was a "holy man" so he should be rightly held to a higher standard, to which he has failed.
​
\*EDIT\* Please see my reply to u/[Subtleiaint](https://www.reddit.com/user/Subtleiaint/) for extensive additional sources
\*EDIT2\* Alright been replying for the better part of 4 hours, plenty of good discussions. Also I want to make it clear that while pointing out that Muhammad may have engaged in some very problematic practices, I'm not attempting to make a blanket commentary on modern day Islam or modern day Muslims, so for those of you that are trying, please stop turning it into that. That said I will have to come back later to continue the discussions and replies.
| 1,619,043,608
|
Drewsef916
|
gvdvaw1
|
gvdsjao
| 21
| 11
|
cmv: Police have the duty to shoot attackers of other people
I’m trying to understand the outrage surrounding the most recent police shooting. From what I understand, if someone attacks someone else with a knife, their life is forfeit. If I can defend myself by shooting someone attacking me, a cop can also act as my agent of self defense. In fact I think it is their moral and legal duty. If someone attacks someone else with a lethal weapon, a cop must act to end the threat. There is no calculation required as to how to save the most lives: sure the knife might not be lethal and the attacker could be sent to jail, but why should the person being attacked be subject to potential death?
Point is, once you show that you intend to maim or kill someone else, you forfeit your right to not be killed. If I was ever in a situation in which I am being attacked, I hope to God the cop doesn’t think “oh damn if I shoot this attacker I might get in trouble”. I hope to God the attacker is shot. And also hope it’s not a taser because those are one-and-done, not very accurate, and less likely to stop the attacker
We can’t have social unrest each time there is a justified shooting. The cost is too high, focus should be on the real issue of police accountability and reform.
|
Police have a duty to do everything in their power to deescalate the situation before they take it upon themselves to end a persons life unless they are in a position where they genuinely feel they cannot.
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The outrage comes from the fact the victim called the police because other girls were threatening her. She grabbed a knife to protect herself. Police show up and shoot her because of the knife.
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mvqy4n
|
cmv: Police have the duty to shoot attackers of other people
|
I’m trying to understand the outrage surrounding the most recent police shooting. From what I understand, if someone attacks someone else with a knife, their life is forfeit. If I can defend myself by shooting someone attacking me, a cop can also act as my agent of self defense. In fact I think it is their moral and legal duty. If someone attacks someone else with a lethal weapon, a cop must act to end the threat. There is no calculation required as to how to save the most lives: sure the knife might not be lethal and the attacker could be sent to jail, but why should the person being attacked be subject to potential death?
Point is, once you show that you intend to maim or kill someone else, you forfeit your right to not be killed. If I was ever in a situation in which I am being attacked, I hope to God the cop doesn’t think “oh damn if I shoot this attacker I might get in trouble”. I hope to God the attacker is shot. And also hope it’s not a taser because those are one-and-done, not very accurate, and less likely to stop the attacker
We can’t have social unrest each time there is a justified shooting. The cost is too high, focus should be on the real issue of police accountability and reform.
| 1,619,043,558
|
th3empirial
|
gvdmmd0
|
gvdm4cq
| 29
| 4
|
cmv: Police have the duty to shoot attackers of other people
I’m trying to understand the outrage surrounding the most recent police shooting. From what I understand, if someone attacks someone else with a knife, their life is forfeit. If I can defend myself by shooting someone attacking me, a cop can also act as my agent of self defense. In fact I think it is their moral and legal duty. If someone attacks someone else with a lethal weapon, a cop must act to end the threat. There is no calculation required as to how to save the most lives: sure the knife might not be lethal and the attacker could be sent to jail, but why should the person being attacked be subject to potential death?
Point is, once you show that you intend to maim or kill someone else, you forfeit your right to not be killed. If I was ever in a situation in which I am being attacked, I hope to God the cop doesn’t think “oh damn if I shoot this attacker I might get in trouble”. I hope to God the attacker is shot. And also hope it’s not a taser because those are one-and-done, not very accurate, and less likely to stop the attacker
We can’t have social unrest each time there is a justified shooting. The cost is too high, focus should be on the real issue of police accountability and reform.
|
With the case of Makiyah Bryant that you are referring to a lot of people may point out that the officer-involved could have resolved the incident in a way that would not have involved shooting Bryant. The moment when the officer arrives on the scene he could have immediately acted when Bryant assaulted the other woman pushing her to the ground. That should have been the immediate tell for the officer in that Bryant was the current threat and could have made the attempt to subdue Bryant by means of tackling her or deploying a taser.
While this incident, in particular, is most likely legally justified police should be better trained and equipped to deploy more non-lethal means in resolving a situation.
|
In a vacuum you're right but outside that vacuum white men shoot up grocery stores or massage parlors or churches and are taken alive.
Dylan Roof was taken to Burger King, Kyle Rittenhouse was handed a water but a teenage girl with a knife is shot five times.
|
mvqy4n
|
cmv: Police have the duty to shoot attackers of other people
|
I’m trying to understand the outrage surrounding the most recent police shooting. From what I understand, if someone attacks someone else with a knife, their life is forfeit. If I can defend myself by shooting someone attacking me, a cop can also act as my agent of self defense. In fact I think it is their moral and legal duty. If someone attacks someone else with a lethal weapon, a cop must act to end the threat. There is no calculation required as to how to save the most lives: sure the knife might not be lethal and the attacker could be sent to jail, but why should the person being attacked be subject to potential death?
Point is, once you show that you intend to maim or kill someone else, you forfeit your right to not be killed. If I was ever in a situation in which I am being attacked, I hope to God the cop doesn’t think “oh damn if I shoot this attacker I might get in trouble”. I hope to God the attacker is shot. And also hope it’s not a taser because those are one-and-done, not very accurate, and less likely to stop the attacker
We can’t have social unrest each time there is a justified shooting. The cost is too high, focus should be on the real issue of police accountability and reform.
| 1,619,043,558
|
th3empirial
|
gvdnzoh
|
gvdms04
| 2
| -3
|
CMV: I believe that the way you are raised can have long-lasting negative repercussions, that may not be reversible.
I have created this post specifically for myself and will provide personal context (as it does influence my view.) I will also provide a generalized version for discussion.
###Personal Context
>I was raised with the freedom to never have to do homework. I now have no study habits as a young adult, and cannot focus on a book or written material. I was never raised with concern to my hygeine, and as a young adult I still do not brush my teeth, and sometimes do not shower. I was raised by a man that never did anything but sit at a computer all day. Though I loved being outside as a child, here I sit.
>Even though I maintain awareness of my failures, I have yet to make dedicated change on any of them. The hardest part of anything is maintaining a daily routine. I even thought seeking outside help would work, but my significant other seems to have 'lowered' to my level and does not really force me to do anything.
> I really looked for an outside opinion. Therapy, psychiatric help, medication, books. I own a wealth of books intended to fix laziness/procrastination, or individual habits.
##Generalized points of my current view:
* Children are meant to be instilled with good habits early on in their life. They are eager to learn, often by example, and easily impressionable.
* If these habits are not instilled, or worse yet replaced with bad habits, it may be impossible to make change without severe outside influence (military training/other forced internment)
* If there were any reasonable way for an individual to correct these deficiencies, it is the nature of the general public to either *profit from it* or *share it.* One of the other almost universally happens.
* The general instruction is to just **do it.** I imagine this works for someone that just needs the inspiration to do the right thing, but doesn't seem appropriate for 10-20 years (or more) of bad habits having been built.
* This is usually the point where someone might make an immediate action, but I believe when you are raised in this manner (as opposed to acquiring bad habits) you will naturally fail to maintain them.
_____
> *This is a footnote from the CMV moderators. We'd like to remind you of a couple of things. Firstly, please* ***[read through our rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules)***. *If you see a comment that has broken one, it is more effective to report it than downvote it. Speaking of which,* ***[downvotes don't change views](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/guidelines#wiki_upvoting.2Fdownvoting)****! Any questions or concerns? Feel free to* ***[message us](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/changemyview)***. *Happy CMVing!*
|
As a nanny who tries to instill proper habits in children and an adult who was not encouraged to form proper habits as a child, I both agree and disagree with you.
>Children are meant to be instilled with good habits early on in their life. They are eager to learn, often by example, and easily impressionable.
It is far easier to learn anything as a child. Be that proper hygiene, a foreign language, social skills, etc. There is a lot of research coming out recently that proves that the first 5 years of life are the most influential in terms of life-long success. But, that same research will also prove that exceptions to that rule exist, called resilence. I'd be happy to discuss exactly what factors are shown to determentially effect a child and what factors lead to resilience, but on this point you are accurate.
> If these habits are not instilled, or worse yet replaced with bad habits, it may be impossible to make change without severe outside influence (military training/other forced internment)
This is what I completely disagree on. Severe outside influence is a great way to force improvement, but it is not the only one. An understanding of your own psychology and ways you form habits can lead to breaking the bad habits on your own. You have already formed new habits as an adult, ones related to a relationship with a significant other and taking care of other responsibilities, even something as simple as regularly getting the mail from the mailbox or putting gas in a car. And for further examples: recovering addicts, people who lose weight and keep it off, people who successfully go through therapy.
I had to learn to work with myself, instead of forcing it to happen. If I'm trying to get rid of a bad habit, I find a good habit to replace it with. It's easier to choose bad vs good habit than tell myself to stop/start doing something. Micro-steps also help me form good habits. If I really really really don't want to wash my dishes, I tell myself that I don't need to wash them. I need to walk over to the sink and stand there. It feels pretty ridiculous to stand by a sink of dirty dishes and do nothing, so most of the time I wind up washing them. But even if I don't, I did something better than continuing to sit where I was. Another way to introduce good habits is to make them a part of an existing routine. I put my toothbrush in the shower to make it very easy to remember to brush my teeth. I like taking showers and getting clean, and it is far easier to brush my teeth during a shower than it is to remember to do it before/after. Those are just some of the ways I gain new healthy habits and get rid of old ones.
Is there anything you do daily? (Get out of bed, eat a meal, check your email or other account) Tack on a micro-habit to that one daily thing. Build it slowly and realize that it is next to impossible to make huge changes that will stick. More importantly, learn what works for you. Willpower and motivation don't, as evidenced by this post. Find what will and use it to your advantage. And give yourself a realistic time frame: I've found that it takes 21 days for a new habit to feel less forced, but about 6 months of consistency for it to truly stick.
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I've actually been thinking a lot about this in the past couple of days -- how we are defined by our experiences. However, if you begin to think of yourself as only the amalgamation of what has happened to you, you lose your sense of self entirely. You cannot think of yourself as a passive entity in your own life. As humans, we oftentimes have no control over our circumstances. Instead, our "soul," our "consciousness," is defined by the choices we have made.
Yes, I understand your upbringing has made certain habits come naturally to you. However, you are not only defined by that. Your upbringing is not forcing you to act a certain way, it just makes it easier for you to do things a certain way. You still have the power to choose. Your choice is just harder for most people, that's all.
|
6qlmnn
|
CMV: I believe that the way you are raised can have long-lasting negative repercussions, that may not be reversible.
|
I have created this post specifically for myself and will provide personal context (as it does influence my view.) I will also provide a generalized version for discussion.
###Personal Context
>I was raised with the freedom to never have to do homework. I now have no study habits as a young adult, and cannot focus on a book or written material. I was never raised with concern to my hygeine, and as a young adult I still do not brush my teeth, and sometimes do not shower. I was raised by a man that never did anything but sit at a computer all day. Though I loved being outside as a child, here I sit.
>Even though I maintain awareness of my failures, I have yet to make dedicated change on any of them. The hardest part of anything is maintaining a daily routine. I even thought seeking outside help would work, but my significant other seems to have 'lowered' to my level and does not really force me to do anything.
> I really looked for an outside opinion. Therapy, psychiatric help, medication, books. I own a wealth of books intended to fix laziness/procrastination, or individual habits.
##Generalized points of my current view:
* Children are meant to be instilled with good habits early on in their life. They are eager to learn, often by example, and easily impressionable.
* If these habits are not instilled, or worse yet replaced with bad habits, it may be impossible to make change without severe outside influence (military training/other forced internment)
* If there were any reasonable way for an individual to correct these deficiencies, it is the nature of the general public to either *profit from it* or *share it.* One of the other almost universally happens.
* The general instruction is to just **do it.** I imagine this works for someone that just needs the inspiration to do the right thing, but doesn't seem appropriate for 10-20 years (or more) of bad habits having been built.
* This is usually the point where someone might make an immediate action, but I believe when you are raised in this manner (as opposed to acquiring bad habits) you will naturally fail to maintain them.
_____
> *This is a footnote from the CMV moderators. We'd like to remind you of a couple of things. Firstly, please* ***[read through our rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules)***. *If you see a comment that has broken one, it is more effective to report it than downvote it. Speaking of which,* ***[downvotes don't change views](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/guidelines#wiki_upvoting.2Fdownvoting)****! Any questions or concerns? Feel free to* ***[message us](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/changemyview)***. *Happy CMVing!*
| 1,501,468,536
|
ThePathLaid
|
dkye8gd
|
dkydsec
| 2
| 1
|
CMV: Smart speakers are generally a bad idea.
Smart speakers such as google home and alexa offer some nice conveniences. But I feel like they have a few overlooked net negatives.
​
These devices only further our dependence on centralized services and providers like google and amazon. When we outsource larger and larger parts of our lives to a smart home service, we essentially tie our habits and our routines to the providers themselves. Furthering dependence on these technologies and therefore the backing companies at heart is pretty frightening imho.
​
By introducing a smart device into your home, you're offering more and more intimate data about yourself to companies that are actively profiling you. YMMV on how much this matters to you, depending on how much you care about what these companies are doing with your data. But I can only see this as invasive on a creepy level.
​
TL;DR. We shouldn't outsource and therefore tie larger parts of our lives to companies that mostly just view us as data points or potential future customers.
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Something that's often overlooked is the benefits for people with special needs. For some people being able to turn off the lights without having to get up is a real game changer in terms of autonomy.
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>These devices only further our dependence on centralized services and providers like google and amazon.
Whether you personally like it or not, do you think you can affect our overall dependence on these centralized services?
|
a8nrxn
|
CMV: Smart speakers are generally a bad idea.
|
Smart speakers such as google home and alexa offer some nice conveniences. But I feel like they have a few overlooked net negatives.
​
These devices only further our dependence on centralized services and providers like google and amazon. When we outsource larger and larger parts of our lives to a smart home service, we essentially tie our habits and our routines to the providers themselves. Furthering dependence on these technologies and therefore the backing companies at heart is pretty frightening imho.
​
By introducing a smart device into your home, you're offering more and more intimate data about yourself to companies that are actively profiling you. YMMV on how much this matters to you, depending on how much you care about what these companies are doing with your data. But I can only see this as invasive on a creepy level.
​
TL;DR. We shouldn't outsource and therefore tie larger parts of our lives to companies that mostly just view us as data points or potential future customers.
| 1,545,507,819
|
mulletlaw
|
eccv52i
|
eccdcie
| 6
| 0
|
CMV: I believe that the way you are raised can have long-lasting negative repercussions, that may not be reversible.
I have created this post specifically for myself and will provide personal context (as it does influence my view.) I will also provide a generalized version for discussion.
###Personal Context
>I was raised with the freedom to never have to do homework. I now have no study habits as a young adult, and cannot focus on a book or written material. I was never raised with concern to my hygeine, and as a young adult I still do not brush my teeth, and sometimes do not shower. I was raised by a man that never did anything but sit at a computer all day. Though I loved being outside as a child, here I sit.
>Even though I maintain awareness of my failures, I have yet to make dedicated change on any of them. The hardest part of anything is maintaining a daily routine. I even thought seeking outside help would work, but my significant other seems to have 'lowered' to my level and does not really force me to do anything.
> I really looked for an outside opinion. Therapy, psychiatric help, medication, books. I own a wealth of books intended to fix laziness/procrastination, or individual habits.
##Generalized points of my current view:
* Children are meant to be instilled with good habits early on in their life. They are eager to learn, often by example, and easily impressionable.
* If these habits are not instilled, or worse yet replaced with bad habits, it may be impossible to make change without severe outside influence (military training/other forced internment)
* If there were any reasonable way for an individual to correct these deficiencies, it is the nature of the general public to either *profit from it* or *share it.* One of the other almost universally happens.
* The general instruction is to just **do it.** I imagine this works for someone that just needs the inspiration to do the right thing, but doesn't seem appropriate for 10-20 years (or more) of bad habits having been built.
* This is usually the point where someone might make an immediate action, but I believe when you are raised in this manner (as opposed to acquiring bad habits) you will naturally fail to maintain them.
_____
> *This is a footnote from the CMV moderators. We'd like to remind you of a couple of things. Firstly, please* ***[read through our rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules)***. *If you see a comment that has broken one, it is more effective to report it than downvote it. Speaking of which,* ***[downvotes don't change views](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/guidelines#wiki_upvoting.2Fdownvoting)****! Any questions or concerns? Feel free to* ***[message us](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/changemyview)***. *Happy CMVing!*
|
I just do not buy that you are 'lazy'. I think you have been depressed for a long, long time.
You don't develop bad habits because you weren't 'taught' good ones. **Habits develop when behaviors are rewarded when adhered to, and punished when deviated from.** Yes, a parent should teach by rewarding and punishing. A few words can be a reward. A father's absence can be a punishment. You can learn without anyone having to teach you. The world punishes and rewards us too. What rewards do you find most rewarding? What punishment do you fear the most? Was your father your whole world as a child? When did he stop being your whole world? How did that change your reward/punishment ratio?
I think you find more punishment in the world than reward. Some instinctive part of you has added it up. In lab rats there is a condition called '**learned helplessness**'. This is when you shock a rat no matter what actions it takes. Eventually the rat stops taking actions. Even if you shock it for not taking actions. I think you've been shocked too many times.
The two major features of **depression** are:
1) lack of enjoyment 2) lack of activity/energy
1) causes 2). Sadness is not always the main feature. Often it is a sort of numbness. Your body and mind shut down to avoid the pain of being alive.
If you want to develop good habits, you need to develop them around something rewarding. **What do you enjoy?** What are you passionate about? Or at least: what did you used to enjoy? Video games and television do not count (unless you are programming a video game or perhaps writing about television) - you need to develop active habits, not passive ones. If nothing works, try taking walks everyday, listening to music. Just, every day, for a half an hour, do something that makes you happy, and try to really enjoy it. Believe in it.
Therapy and medication help depression. Change of diet and exercise have been proven to be as or more effective. Try it all. Most importantly: get help, somewhere, someone. "Just do it" is stupid advice. You need help. I know what this feels like. You can get better.
|
As a nanny who tries to instill proper habits in children and an adult who was not encouraged to form proper habits as a child, I both agree and disagree with you.
>Children are meant to be instilled with good habits early on in their life. They are eager to learn, often by example, and easily impressionable.
It is far easier to learn anything as a child. Be that proper hygiene, a foreign language, social skills, etc. There is a lot of research coming out recently that proves that the first 5 years of life are the most influential in terms of life-long success. But, that same research will also prove that exceptions to that rule exist, called resilence. I'd be happy to discuss exactly what factors are shown to determentially effect a child and what factors lead to resilience, but on this point you are accurate.
> If these habits are not instilled, or worse yet replaced with bad habits, it may be impossible to make change without severe outside influence (military training/other forced internment)
This is what I completely disagree on. Severe outside influence is a great way to force improvement, but it is not the only one. An understanding of your own psychology and ways you form habits can lead to breaking the bad habits on your own. You have already formed new habits as an adult, ones related to a relationship with a significant other and taking care of other responsibilities, even something as simple as regularly getting the mail from the mailbox or putting gas in a car. And for further examples: recovering addicts, people who lose weight and keep it off, people who successfully go through therapy.
I had to learn to work with myself, instead of forcing it to happen. If I'm trying to get rid of a bad habit, I find a good habit to replace it with. It's easier to choose bad vs good habit than tell myself to stop/start doing something. Micro-steps also help me form good habits. If I really really really don't want to wash my dishes, I tell myself that I don't need to wash them. I need to walk over to the sink and stand there. It feels pretty ridiculous to stand by a sink of dirty dishes and do nothing, so most of the time I wind up washing them. But even if I don't, I did something better than continuing to sit where I was. Another way to introduce good habits is to make them a part of an existing routine. I put my toothbrush in the shower to make it very easy to remember to brush my teeth. I like taking showers and getting clean, and it is far easier to brush my teeth during a shower than it is to remember to do it before/after. Those are just some of the ways I gain new healthy habits and get rid of old ones.
Is there anything you do daily? (Get out of bed, eat a meal, check your email or other account) Tack on a micro-habit to that one daily thing. Build it slowly and realize that it is next to impossible to make huge changes that will stick. More importantly, learn what works for you. Willpower and motivation don't, as evidenced by this post. Find what will and use it to your advantage. And give yourself a realistic time frame: I've found that it takes 21 days for a new habit to feel less forced, but about 6 months of consistency for it to truly stick.
|
6qlmnn
|
CMV: I believe that the way you are raised can have long-lasting negative repercussions, that may not be reversible.
|
I have created this post specifically for myself and will provide personal context (as it does influence my view.) I will also provide a generalized version for discussion.
###Personal Context
>I was raised with the freedom to never have to do homework. I now have no study habits as a young adult, and cannot focus on a book or written material. I was never raised with concern to my hygeine, and as a young adult I still do not brush my teeth, and sometimes do not shower. I was raised by a man that never did anything but sit at a computer all day. Though I loved being outside as a child, here I sit.
>Even though I maintain awareness of my failures, I have yet to make dedicated change on any of them. The hardest part of anything is maintaining a daily routine. I even thought seeking outside help would work, but my significant other seems to have 'lowered' to my level and does not really force me to do anything.
> I really looked for an outside opinion. Therapy, psychiatric help, medication, books. I own a wealth of books intended to fix laziness/procrastination, or individual habits.
##Generalized points of my current view:
* Children are meant to be instilled with good habits early on in their life. They are eager to learn, often by example, and easily impressionable.
* If these habits are not instilled, or worse yet replaced with bad habits, it may be impossible to make change without severe outside influence (military training/other forced internment)
* If there were any reasonable way for an individual to correct these deficiencies, it is the nature of the general public to either *profit from it* or *share it.* One of the other almost universally happens.
* The general instruction is to just **do it.** I imagine this works for someone that just needs the inspiration to do the right thing, but doesn't seem appropriate for 10-20 years (or more) of bad habits having been built.
* This is usually the point where someone might make an immediate action, but I believe when you are raised in this manner (as opposed to acquiring bad habits) you will naturally fail to maintain them.
_____
> *This is a footnote from the CMV moderators. We'd like to remind you of a couple of things. Firstly, please* ***[read through our rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules)***. *If you see a comment that has broken one, it is more effective to report it than downvote it. Speaking of which,* ***[downvotes don't change views](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/guidelines#wiki_upvoting.2Fdownvoting)****! Any questions or concerns? Feel free to* ***[message us](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/changemyview)***. *Happy CMVing!*
| 1,501,468,536
|
ThePathLaid
|
dkyewwm
|
dkye8gd
| 5
| 2
|
CMV: The gender gap in STEM is due, at least in part to biology
Specifically, due to differences in IQ spread. Due to the higher spread in males (on both extremes), there are twice as many males with 120 IQ and above than females. It follows that even with equal opportunity, females will be underrepresented in highly complex job fields like math research, or STEM in general.
Note that I have not claimed that it is entirely due to biology, nor that the difference in IQ spread is the only contributing biological factor.
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|
Are you referring to IQ spread? If so, ["Most standard tests of intelligence have been constructed so that there are no overall score differences between females and males." Thus, there is little difference between the average IQ scores of men and women.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_intelligence?wprov=sfla1) This tells us two things:
1. That there's no significant difference between the IQ of men and women
2. That IQ tests are constructed to achieve certain scores, and can be modified to adjust them as you aee fit.
Following, IQ doesn't indicate well suitability for STEM positions.
Men do seem (according to the same article) to have a larger spread in IQ, but that doesn't mean that there are more men suited for STEM, and even if it did - do all men suited for STEM fields automatically go work in them?
~~Since men are more spread than women, the only conclusion that can be made for certain without a source is that there are more women than men above average IQ (100)~~. So I'd like to see a source that there are more men than women above IQ 120, and also an explanation (or source) for why you need IQ 120+ to work in STEM fields.
Edit: removed a mistake.
|
IQ itself can be a representation of a biased society. Those tests are designed with society in mind, after all and are not some kind of neutral test, based on some mathematical constants that are inherent to the universe.
A society that views one gender as "active" and the other one as "passive" (Our society does that with men and women) are also more inclined to follow up that narrative by highlighting the differences between members of the active group.
That's like claiming that all people of other ethnic backgrounds look the same, but people of your backgrounds don't, it is a bias towards highlighting the differences between one group and lumping together the differences of the other group.
Same can be said about IQ Tests, they were conceived and designed in a society that (Even today) has a bias towards men as the "active" part, using them as the standard in those tests, which leads to them being the people that the test will divide, the "passive" women are closer together because the test doesn't highlight their differences as well.
|
94qwo2
|
CMV: The gender gap in STEM is due, at least in part to biology
|
Specifically, due to differences in IQ spread. Due to the higher spread in males (on both extremes), there are twice as many males with 120 IQ and above than females. It follows that even with equal opportunity, females will be underrepresented in highly complex job fields like math research, or STEM in general.
Note that I have not claimed that it is entirely due to biology, nor that the difference in IQ spread is the only contributing biological factor.
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| 1,533,464,118
|
WaltWhit3
|
e3n4gy9
|
e3n3pv8
| 8
| 6
|
CMV: The Prophet Muhammad, claimed under Islam as the Most Moral of All Men, was a child rapist.
The hadiths make it clear that he took his wife Aisha for marriage when she was 6. Many Muhammad apologists try to say she was actually much older and the Hadiths in question can't be trusted since they aren't "the word of Allah".. even though many are first hand accounts of the girl herself. By following the logic that the hadiths can't be trusted then we would have little to no knowledge of Muhammad himself and also getting rid of the hadiths turns the Quran into mound of disconnected contextless writings. The Hadith's in question :
* Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151
* 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Sahih Muslim 8:3311
* A’ishah said : I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in." Sunan Abu Dawud 4913 (Ahmad Hasan Ref)
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls." (Sahih) Sunan an-Nasa'i 4:26:3380
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "I used to play with dolls when I was with the Messenger of Allah, and he used to bring my friends to me to play with me." (Sahih) Sunan Ibn Majah 3:9:198
* Aisha said she was nine years old when the act of consummation took place and she had her dolls with her. Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol. 2, p 77
Many defenders also like to point to the context at the time being normal for child brides to take place. Agreed! It was! However again he is a prophet and he is the most moral of all men, there is no way to in todays day and age give him a pass and say its ok to that he only be held to the standards of the society around him at the time, He was founding an entire religion, he was a "holy man" so he should be rightly held to a higher standard, to which he has failed.
​
\*EDIT\* Please see my reply to u/[Subtleiaint](https://www.reddit.com/user/Subtleiaint/) for extensive additional sources
\*EDIT2\* Alright been replying for the better part of 4 hours, plenty of good discussions. Also I want to make it clear that while pointing out that Muhammad may have engaged in some very problematic practices, I'm not attempting to make a blanket commentary on modern day Islam or modern day Muslims, so for those of you that are trying, please stop turning it into that. That said I will have to come back later to continue the discussions and replies.
|
>By following the logic that the hadiths can't be trusted then we would have little to no knowledge of Muhammad himself and also getting rid of the hadiths turns the Quran into mound of disconnected contextless writings.
This is a black and white fallacy. There isn't a two way dichotomy that either we have to say all hadiths are authentic, or all hadiths are not authentic. One can argue, that some hadith are authentic but some are not. Hence the argument that the ones detailing Aisha as underage are can be incorrect whilst at the same time many other hadith are sound.
​
Some things to consider:
* The Battle of Badr happened in 624 CE and the Battle of Uhud happened in 625 CE. There are some accounts detailing how Aisha accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and the Battle of Uhud. The Prophet Muhammad married Aisha at around 623 CE. This means that if if Aisha was a child at the time of her marriage to the Prophet Muhammad then she would have also been a very young girl at the time of these battles. It is unlikely for a child would accompany an army into battle, even if acting as a nurse or a non-combatant. So it is unlikely Aisha was a child at her time of marriage to the Prophet Muhammad.
* Qur'an 4:6 says:
>And test the orphans \[in their abilities\] until they reach marriageable age. Then if you perceive in them sound judgement, release their property to them. And do not consume it excessively and quickly, \[anticipating\] that they will grow up. And whoever, \[when acting as guardian\], is self-sufficient should refrain \[from taking a fee\]; and whoever is poor - let him take according to what is acceptable. Then when you release their property to them, bring witnesses upon them. And sufficient is Allah as Accountant.
The context of this verse is referring on when to give (adopted) orphans their property as they grow up. Notice the language here - the Qur'an mentions the existence of a *"marriageable age",* and implies at this *"marriageable age"*, these orphans could be feasibly capable of owning their own property and wealth, if they have *"sound judgement"* (hence test on whether this is the case or not). No six year old, even the most developed ones, is mature enough to own their own property and wealth. Hence six would not be a *"marriageable age"*, further casing doubt on that this was the age of Aisha at her marriage to the Prophet Muhammad.
|
i think its more they know its wrong today, but muhammad does not live today, and there was no concept of a "pedophile" back then. a "pedophile" is an invention of our era for someone attracted to children. we have 0 idea if muhammad was attracted to children or not. since muslims believe he was incapable of major sin, and they recognize pedophilia as a major sin, it is assumed by muslims that he was not a pedophile, and that aisha was an adult at the time of their marriage consumation.
in islamic law, it is forbidden for girls who are not capable of sex to live with someone they have married. that's a concept usually expressed as "hatta tutiqa'l-rijal". girls also have to consent to marriage, and theoretically they can divorce at any time. another hadith has Aisha state that "if a girl were to reach puberty at the age of 9, then she is a woman". the concept of puberty in islamic law, "baligh", is that once someone enters it, they are fully responsible adults. this was not even a uniquely arab belief; in fact in medieval europe, scholars believe that people then considered "childhood" to end at age 7, when a child could communicate with adults.
just like how christians and jews say that abraham would have killed his son because god told him to, or that the killing of everyone in jericho was god's will and a righteous act, or that lot's wife looking back on nineveh and its people burning causing her to turn into a pillar of salt was a just punishment, muslims hold that muhammad's third wife was married when she was young, anywhere from 9 to 15. it is compartmentalized into the beliefs and standards of the time, and of the area they lived, and especially of the will and power of god. muslim culture is not static; it is not unchanged for thousands of years. today, pedophilia is universally considered wrong, by muslims, jews, christians alike. so is killing your child, so is genocide, so is punishing genuine feelings of empathy. back then, there was no concept of "pedophile", and conceptions of children, adults, and sex were completely different. as were most things.
|
mvqyoq
|
CMV: The Prophet Muhammad, claimed under Islam as the Most Moral of All Men, was a child rapist.
|
The hadiths make it clear that he took his wife Aisha for marriage when she was 6. Many Muhammad apologists try to say she was actually much older and the Hadiths in question can't be trusted since they aren't "the word of Allah".. even though many are first hand accounts of the girl herself. By following the logic that the hadiths can't be trusted then we would have little to no knowledge of Muhammad himself and also getting rid of the hadiths turns the Quran into mound of disconnected contextless writings. The Hadith's in question :
* Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151
* 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Sahih Muslim 8:3311
* A’ishah said : I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in." Sunan Abu Dawud 4913 (Ahmad Hasan Ref)
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls." (Sahih) Sunan an-Nasa'i 4:26:3380
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "I used to play with dolls when I was with the Messenger of Allah, and he used to bring my friends to me to play with me." (Sahih) Sunan Ibn Majah 3:9:198
* Aisha said she was nine years old when the act of consummation took place and she had her dolls with her. Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol. 2, p 77
Many defenders also like to point to the context at the time being normal for child brides to take place. Agreed! It was! However again he is a prophet and he is the most moral of all men, there is no way to in todays day and age give him a pass and say its ok to that he only be held to the standards of the society around him at the time, He was founding an entire religion, he was a "holy man" so he should be rightly held to a higher standard, to which he has failed.
​
\*EDIT\* Please see my reply to u/[Subtleiaint](https://www.reddit.com/user/Subtleiaint/) for extensive additional sources
\*EDIT2\* Alright been replying for the better part of 4 hours, plenty of good discussions. Also I want to make it clear that while pointing out that Muhammad may have engaged in some very problematic practices, I'm not attempting to make a blanket commentary on modern day Islam or modern day Muslims, so for those of you that are trying, please stop turning it into that. That said I will have to come back later to continue the discussions and replies.
| 1,619,043,608
|
Drewsef916
|
gvdzovy
|
gvdwcud
| 83
| 5
|
CMV: Marriage and Long Term relationships are prostitution
I think that marriage and long term relationships are prostitution because they involve a man giving additional things to a woman in an attempt to get her to have sex with him. I do believe that there can be exceptions such as marriages that began as friends with benefits arrangements and scenarios where men impregnate women and because of care for the child marry them to help raise the child. I am not going to dispute things such as sex being better in marriages or married people being happier, I only think that marriages are not built on genuine sexual attraction on a woman's part and thus are a form of prostitution.
|
This post assumes 2 incredibly wrong things: sex is the foremost reason people get married, a woman only has her body to offer in a marriage.
Given that many couples practice premarital sex, sex would not be an incentive to get married. Secondly women have roles in a relationship outside of the bedroom. Depending on the relationship they act as coparent, cook, clean, help pay bills/are the bread winner themselves, and help their partners mentally/emotionally; thus making the relationship give and take, not prostitution.
|
Relationships involve *sharing* resources. Sometimes that means the man gives more, sometimes it means that he takes more.
>I only think that marriages are not built on genuine sexual attraction on a woman's part and thus are a form of prostitution.
That's not what prostitution is. Prostitution is the exchange of money(or resources) specifically for sex. That's not what is happening here.
|
6xqfon
|
CMV: Marriage and Long Term relationships are prostitution
|
I think that marriage and long term relationships are prostitution because they involve a man giving additional things to a woman in an attempt to get her to have sex with him. I do believe that there can be exceptions such as marriages that began as friends with benefits arrangements and scenarios where men impregnate women and because of care for the child marry them to help raise the child. I am not going to dispute things such as sex being better in marriages or married people being happier, I only think that marriages are not built on genuine sexual attraction on a woman's part and thus are a form of prostitution.
| 1,504,402,859
|
ouijblvndrwoek
|
dmhqqlk
|
dmhps16
| 11
| 2
|
CMV: The gender gap in STEM is due, at least in part to biology
Specifically, due to differences in IQ spread. Due to the higher spread in males (on both extremes), there are twice as many males with 120 IQ and above than females. It follows that even with equal opportunity, females will be underrepresented in highly complex job fields like math research, or STEM in general.
Note that I have not claimed that it is entirely due to biology, nor that the difference in IQ spread is the only contributing biological factor.
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|
Some studies have shown that this higher spread in intelligence for males is not found in some cultures and has changed over time e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2689999/. These papers conclude that the difference in spread of intelligence is itself an artefact of gender inequality.
|
Do you want us to tell you that man and woman are biological equal? Because that won't happen.
Or do you want to talk about the reasons the gender gap is problematic and why we should try to minimize it?
|
94qwo2
|
CMV: The gender gap in STEM is due, at least in part to biology
|
Specifically, due to differences in IQ spread. Due to the higher spread in males (on both extremes), there are twice as many males with 120 IQ and above than females. It follows that even with equal opportunity, females will be underrepresented in highly complex job fields like math research, or STEM in general.
Note that I have not claimed that it is entirely due to biology, nor that the difference in IQ spread is the only contributing biological factor.
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| 1,533,464,118
|
WaltWhit3
|
e3n42c3
|
e3n3kty
| 9
| 1
|
CMV: It is better to destroy old clothing than donate it.
My argument is that, although well-intentioned, the donation of clothing has an end impact which closely resembles anti-competitive dumping which artificially depresses foreign local economies. The benefits do not outweigh the costs.
Significant portions of clothing donated in Western economies is shipped in bulk to be resold in developing countries. Because this clothing is sold for profit, very little makes it into the hands of the destitute because they cannot pay. Instead, donated clothing, especially luxury items, are resold to the middle class. Resellers prioritise higher value items (especially on a weight/volume basis) and therefore low-value items which would be more affordable to the destitute are virtually never shipped.
Since the costs of production of this clothing have already been paid for by the primary user, sourcing and supplying second-hand clothing has very little cost (some unskilled labour to collect the clothing and bulk freight to ship it, generally). This gives second-hand clothing an extreme cost advantage against local garment manufacturers, who must pay for not only the raw materials, but the semi-skilled labour to transform it into clothing, in addition to local transportation costs to bring it to market. This effectively means that local manufacturers cannot outcompete donated clothing.
In this way, the donation and shipping of used clothing to developing countries is significantly and meaningfully similar to the practice of anti-competitive dumping. Dumping is recognised as a harmful and destructive international trade practice because it unfairly forces competitors out of the market. In practical terms, this manifests itself as the destruction of the domestic garment manufacturing industry in developing countries. As long as the practice continues, the playing field will be tilted against garment manufacturers in developing countries, preventing them from ever becoming successful and competing with established major players.
This represents the true cost of donating used clothing (and by extension, many other things) to the developing world -- the depression or destruction of domestic industry at the end-point. In most circumstances, this results in fewer job opportunities and a less diverse/robust domestic economy which is also more dependent on developed nations. The benefit of the practice is that some middle-class individuals are able to purchase better clothing (assumed for argument's sake) and improve their welfare marginally.
Edit:
I learned from /u/GnosticGnome that most clothing donations are recycled into industrial inputs (rags and textile fibers). This makes the argument more of a clear 'destroy' or 'recycle' argument, where recycling clearly wins. Go ahead and donate your clothes, especially if you know they won't end up abroad!
Edit 2:
I thought up a scenario which would significantly undermine my line of argumentation while replying to some commenters. If the overwhelming majority of used-clothes purchasers developing countries donate _their_ old clothing to charity, and if this goes to the needy, then it would very much be a better idea to donate than destroy.
|
Only about 25% of donated clothes makes it overseas to be sold as clothing (10% domestically). The other 65% is recycled as rags/yarn/mattress filling/etc. If you donate more, the same amount will go overseas but more will be recycled.
So unless you hate the environment, donating clothing is better than discarding clothing.
|
I don't know where you think people are donating to, but when I take unwanted clothing to the charity shop, I can see for myself that they are selling donated clothing to local people who presumably want to wear it - and it would be immoral to destroy clothing which can be worn by people who cannot afford all new clothing.
|
a8nsht
|
CMV: It is better to destroy old clothing than donate it.
|
My argument is that, although well-intentioned, the donation of clothing has an end impact which closely resembles anti-competitive dumping which artificially depresses foreign local economies. The benefits do not outweigh the costs.
Significant portions of clothing donated in Western economies is shipped in bulk to be resold in developing countries. Because this clothing is sold for profit, very little makes it into the hands of the destitute because they cannot pay. Instead, donated clothing, especially luxury items, are resold to the middle class. Resellers prioritise higher value items (especially on a weight/volume basis) and therefore low-value items which would be more affordable to the destitute are virtually never shipped.
Since the costs of production of this clothing have already been paid for by the primary user, sourcing and supplying second-hand clothing has very little cost (some unskilled labour to collect the clothing and bulk freight to ship it, generally). This gives second-hand clothing an extreme cost advantage against local garment manufacturers, who must pay for not only the raw materials, but the semi-skilled labour to transform it into clothing, in addition to local transportation costs to bring it to market. This effectively means that local manufacturers cannot outcompete donated clothing.
In this way, the donation and shipping of used clothing to developing countries is significantly and meaningfully similar to the practice of anti-competitive dumping. Dumping is recognised as a harmful and destructive international trade practice because it unfairly forces competitors out of the market. In practical terms, this manifests itself as the destruction of the domestic garment manufacturing industry in developing countries. As long as the practice continues, the playing field will be tilted against garment manufacturers in developing countries, preventing them from ever becoming successful and competing with established major players.
This represents the true cost of donating used clothing (and by extension, many other things) to the developing world -- the depression or destruction of domestic industry at the end-point. In most circumstances, this results in fewer job opportunities and a less diverse/robust domestic economy which is also more dependent on developed nations. The benefit of the practice is that some middle-class individuals are able to purchase better clothing (assumed for argument's sake) and improve their welfare marginally.
Edit:
I learned from /u/GnosticGnome that most clothing donations are recycled into industrial inputs (rags and textile fibers). This makes the argument more of a clear 'destroy' or 'recycle' argument, where recycling clearly wins. Go ahead and donate your clothes, especially if you know they won't end up abroad!
Edit 2:
I thought up a scenario which would significantly undermine my line of argumentation while replying to some commenters. If the overwhelming majority of used-clothes purchasers developing countries donate _their_ old clothing to charity, and if this goes to the needy, then it would very much be a better idea to donate than destroy.
| 1,545,507,935
|
052934
|
ecce519
|
eccdc39
| 5
| 1
|
CMV: “Life” is the worst board game popularly played by adults
Let me start off by saying I am by no means a board game expert. I definitely enjoy board games, and I’ve played quite a few, but I’m by no means a die-hard tabletop game player. Now, on to my view.
First, the game of life is boring. There is very little strategy involved. Basically the entire premise of the game is you spin the color wheel and go however many spaces you spin. Spaces can give you money or other events, and whoever has the most money at he end wins. This is a game entirely based on chance. I understand why this might be popular with children, as it is along the lines of other games such as candy land or shoots and ladders. However, these are not games commonly played by adults, and generally are classified as ‘kids games’.
I’ve heard many people complain that monopoly is overrated and a terrible game. I understand where they’re coming from but there is still so much more strategy involved in that (trading, buying strategically, mortgaging, etc.) that leads to each game being different. For the most part,Life is the same. You might as well flip coins.
Some people might argue that one of the advantages to this board game is that it’s simplicity makes it easy to learn. I would argue that there are many other games that are just as easy to learn that are extraordinarily more entertaining than Life.
Maybe I am missing something with Life, but I can’t help but think it is incredibly dull, boring, and repetitive. It’s cons far outweigh any pros it may have. Please, change my view
Edit: one thing I forgot to mention is properties. One may argue that the existence of buying properties in life involves thinking and strategy. While this is true, the strategy involved is a very simple odds calculation, and this is not even guaranteed to take place during a game, only if a player lands on a house space.
|
Alright so I absolutely love tabletop games and I agree it is a pretty terrible game. That being said it does have its positives. Strategically, you are correct there is very minimal choices, just a couple different paths in the version I played. What LIFE does have is a good theme that tells interesting story. I did not play LIFE to interesting choices but to see how my life played out. LIFE also doesn't take too long. Compared to something like Monopoly it goes pretty quick and there is very limited possibility the game will drag.
As far as tabletop games that are worse but around, War has got to be number 1. Entirely predetermined and no interesting story to tell.
|
is it really a popular adult game? I haven't played it since grade school.
|
e2tq54
|
CMV: “Life” is the worst board game popularly played by adults
|
Let me start off by saying I am by no means a board game expert. I definitely enjoy board games, and I’ve played quite a few, but I’m by no means a die-hard tabletop game player. Now, on to my view.
First, the game of life is boring. There is very little strategy involved. Basically the entire premise of the game is you spin the color wheel and go however many spaces you spin. Spaces can give you money or other events, and whoever has the most money at he end wins. This is a game entirely based on chance. I understand why this might be popular with children, as it is along the lines of other games such as candy land or shoots and ladders. However, these are not games commonly played by adults, and generally are classified as ‘kids games’.
I’ve heard many people complain that monopoly is overrated and a terrible game. I understand where they’re coming from but there is still so much more strategy involved in that (trading, buying strategically, mortgaging, etc.) that leads to each game being different. For the most part,Life is the same. You might as well flip coins.
Some people might argue that one of the advantages to this board game is that it’s simplicity makes it easy to learn. I would argue that there are many other games that are just as easy to learn that are extraordinarily more entertaining than Life.
Maybe I am missing something with Life, but I can’t help but think it is incredibly dull, boring, and repetitive. It’s cons far outweigh any pros it may have. Please, change my view
Edit: one thing I forgot to mention is properties. One may argue that the existence of buying properties in life involves thinking and strategy. While this is true, the strategy involved is a very simple odds calculation, and this is not even guaranteed to take place during a game, only if a player lands on a house space.
| 1,574,921,065
|
sagespice
|
f8xm6el
|
f8xlnwl
| 3
| 2
|
CMV: Sexual liberation and casual sex has harmed women
I grew up very Catholic so it was no surprise that when I initially went to college, I was very chaste. My sophomore year of college I was exposed to "hook up culture" and in the classroom, learned about women's sexual liberation in the 60's. I was sold on the whole idea of women's sexual liberation and casual sex: if men can have sex without strings, why can't women?
So this was my logic, when I had my first casual "hook up" with a guy junior year. *Right* after we finished, he opened the door and asked me to leave. Like I was a prostitute.
I knew it was casual and I didn't expect he and I to date nor did I have any romantic expectations of him, but I expected to be treated with respect and as human being.
My best friend from college, "Lauren" slept with several men on campus. She was proud of her sexuality, she enjoyed herself, and had no qualms about anyone who judged her; this was what liberation had taught us right?.
One day I was sitting behind two guys in the library, two with whom she happened to have slept with with on different occasions. They were talking about her and didn't notice I was there. "The sex was horrible!" "Was her vagina that dry when you hit it too?" one said about Lauren. Then he complained about how he was forced to cuddle with her afterwards. Then went on how she was "passing the pussy."
I had to tell her; she was devastated. She felt as terrible as I did when I got kicked out after sex.
It wasn't just Lauren, another friend "Susan" slept with various basketball players. A male friend told me that the guys referred to her as "the Basketball hoop."
I ended up trying the casual sex thing various times again, all with similar negative experiences and men who only saw me for the value of my vagina. One later claimed he didn't even know me, although he had slept with me several times before. I asked another if we could hangout as friends, without the sex. He immediately told me no, he wanted to keep our relationship purely sexual.
Lauren, Susan, and I all felt like shit when these men's masks came off.
But where was this power I was suppose to feel from being sexual liberated? We were sleeping with these men but they didn't even see us as *human beings.* Sex was just like eating a sandwich to them, they didn't care where it came from. We were just sex objects for men to get off on.
I just can't see how sexual liberation has *helped* women.
Casual sex has made men even more sexist. Men may no longer *publicly* shame women, but in "men's world" the myth of the "virgin-whore" dichotomy still exists on who is "girlfriend material" and who is "pass the pussy" material.
Also, there are tons of consequences that are not communicated initially. For example, sexual liberation does not mean men will respect you afterwards.
Most importantly, people never tell women how men really view casual sex. Men see it as you temporarily letting him use your body. They don't have to respect you as a human being, because we are just sex toys to them. How does treating another human being as an object empower women? How is engaging in dehumanizing behavior empowering? Telling women to emulate the way men have casual sex is telling women to engage in behavior that is cynical and animalistic. How can this be helpful to women?
I think we are conned into believing sexual liberation and casual sex was good for us. I feel like it's been more harmful to women than helpful than anything.
|
You know what? Your last sentence was such a good point.
I think I widened the definition of what women's sexual liberation meant. I do think that girl's should be warned in advance that they shouldn't feel ashamed to have sex, but understand how men view casual sex and the consequences of that.
|
> no-strings-attached, totally-cool-with-no-emotional-involvement sex, that's fine. But everybody has to be on board.
If you're having a hook-up, you should be on board with that because that's what hook ups are. If you're not on board with that, don't have hook ups.
|
6xq7f1
|
CMV: Sexual liberation and casual sex has harmed women
|
I grew up very Catholic so it was no surprise that when I initially went to college, I was very chaste. My sophomore year of college I was exposed to "hook up culture" and in the classroom, learned about women's sexual liberation in the 60's. I was sold on the whole idea of women's sexual liberation and casual sex: if men can have sex without strings, why can't women?
So this was my logic, when I had my first casual "hook up" with a guy junior year. *Right* after we finished, he opened the door and asked me to leave. Like I was a prostitute.
I knew it was casual and I didn't expect he and I to date nor did I have any romantic expectations of him, but I expected to be treated with respect and as human being.
My best friend from college, "Lauren" slept with several men on campus. She was proud of her sexuality, she enjoyed herself, and had no qualms about anyone who judged her; this was what liberation had taught us right?.
One day I was sitting behind two guys in the library, two with whom she happened to have slept with with on different occasions. They were talking about her and didn't notice I was there. "The sex was horrible!" "Was her vagina that dry when you hit it too?" one said about Lauren. Then he complained about how he was forced to cuddle with her afterwards. Then went on how she was "passing the pussy."
I had to tell her; she was devastated. She felt as terrible as I did when I got kicked out after sex.
It wasn't just Lauren, another friend "Susan" slept with various basketball players. A male friend told me that the guys referred to her as "the Basketball hoop."
I ended up trying the casual sex thing various times again, all with similar negative experiences and men who only saw me for the value of my vagina. One later claimed he didn't even know me, although he had slept with me several times before. I asked another if we could hangout as friends, without the sex. He immediately told me no, he wanted to keep our relationship purely sexual.
Lauren, Susan, and I all felt like shit when these men's masks came off.
But where was this power I was suppose to feel from being sexual liberated? We were sleeping with these men but they didn't even see us as *human beings.* Sex was just like eating a sandwich to them, they didn't care where it came from. We were just sex objects for men to get off on.
I just can't see how sexual liberation has *helped* women.
Casual sex has made men even more sexist. Men may no longer *publicly* shame women, but in "men's world" the myth of the "virgin-whore" dichotomy still exists on who is "girlfriend material" and who is "pass the pussy" material.
Also, there are tons of consequences that are not communicated initially. For example, sexual liberation does not mean men will respect you afterwards.
Most importantly, people never tell women how men really view casual sex. Men see it as you temporarily letting him use your body. They don't have to respect you as a human being, because we are just sex toys to them. How does treating another human being as an object empower women? How is engaging in dehumanizing behavior empowering? Telling women to emulate the way men have casual sex is telling women to engage in behavior that is cynical and animalistic. How can this be helpful to women?
I think we are conned into believing sexual liberation and casual sex was good for us. I feel like it's been more harmful to women than helpful than anything.
| 1,504,400,233
|
dukenotredame
|
dmhrc16
|
dmhq957
| 11
| 4
|
CMV: We shouldn't be so harsh against pedofiles who haven't done anything
I'm gonna start off by saying that child molestation is NOT ok.
If you're a pedofile, it's hard to seek help because you fear that people will hate you for it. If people find out you're a pedofile, you'll be labeled as a pedofile for the rest of your life, and you'll probably lose all your friends and family. If we treated pedofiles more nicely, they'll probably have an easier time getting rid of the fetish.
Right now as it is, alot of pedofiles don't seek help, and thus they end up becoming a child rapist.
|
At the heart of it is the fact that the thought of someone finding a child sexually attractive disgusts us. It's no different to how the thought of a parent and their biological child having a sexual relationship disgusts us even if both parties are adults. It's a hardwired response.
I go further than you, though, since I disagree that pedophilia is a 'fetish'. Personally, I think that *noone* chooses their sexuality. That means noone chooses to be straight, noone chooses to be gay, and noone chooses to be turned on by kids. If that's your orientation then it'll be your orientation for life. I mean, it's only the crazies now that think that gay-conversion therapy works.
So, yes, there absolutely should be routes for pedophiles to seek help without stigma, since that would only be to all our benefit.
|
What do you mean by "not doing anything"? They never, ever, in any way, acted on their desires ? Or do you mean only physically? Is it ok if they've only seen pictures? If not, I don't get how people would find it out.
Being attracted by younger girls is 100% ok; it doesn't imply anything with minors per say. Being attracted to, let's say, 12 year olds, is frowned upon because it's wrong to have sexual feelings towards beings who can't consent. "Not doing anything" doesn't make it less wrong to the point where social judgement would change, even if it's not a crime.
|
e2w85f
|
CMV: We shouldn't be so harsh against pedofiles who haven't done anything
|
I'm gonna start off by saying that child molestation is NOT ok.
If you're a pedofile, it's hard to seek help because you fear that people will hate you for it. If people find out you're a pedofile, you'll be labeled as a pedofile for the rest of your life, and you'll probably lose all your friends and family. If we treated pedofiles more nicely, they'll probably have an easier time getting rid of the fetish.
Right now as it is, alot of pedofiles don't seek help, and thus they end up becoming a child rapist.
| 1,574,936,505
|
TheTazerLazer
|
f8y6n6f
|
f8y14he
| 13
| 7
|
CMV: Cause and Effect is a sufficient argument for proving God's existence
\[Edit\] Thank you for your comments everybody! I think I got the gist of the arguments against the Cause and Effect argument. While I remain unconvinced of these counter-arguments, I appreciate your comments. I don't think I have time to answer any more comments though.
The universe and all that exists could not exist without an initial cause. We may never be able to understand or prove how the universe started, but an ultimate cause for the existence of the universe exists. If God does not exist, then how would the ultimate cause exist? The ultimate cause cannot cause itself. Something has to cause that ultimate cause, and the existence of that something cannot be dependent on some other cause.
I cannot think of any arguments against cause and effect other than 'the ultimate cause just existed someway or another'. How does that make more sense than 'God created the universe'?
|
First off, I disagree with every counter argument people have posed to you. Every counter argument has been people gerrymandering the word "cause" or they're discarding causality without dealing with the consequences of that.
I'm gonna give you what I think is the one and only possible refutation of the cosmological argument. Which is what you're talking about, the cosmological argument and the problem of first cause.
[Watch this Carl Sagan video.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0WjV6MmCyM)
The TLDW is that we can use math to prove that 4 or more dimensions actually exists, but we will never be able to see or think in 4 dimensions. I think this is the solution to the problem of first cause.
The existence of 4 dimensions indicates that our model of physics is wrong. And not a little bit wrong, but grossly wrong. Therefore I assert the following. Causality is a 3 dimensional concept, not applicable to the true form of the universe. What we perceive as the passage of time and cause and effect is nothing more than an abstraction of how reality actually works.
I think that the problem of first cause is a falsidical paradox. The question is simply ill formed due to the limitations of a 3 dimensional existence.
This does not prove or disprove the idea of God, but it is an alternative hypothesis, and a valid one in my opinion.
|
>The universe and all that exists could not exist without an initial cause.
One would think that, but we honestly don't know if this is true.
>We may never be able to understand or prove how the universe started, but an ultimate cause for the existence of the universe exists.
Again, we don't know if an ultimate cause exists or not. It would seem like there is an ultimate cause, but until we know how the universe started, we have to settle with admitting ignorance.
> If God does not exist, then how would the ultimate cause exist? The ultimate cause cannot cause itself. Something has to cause that ultimate cause, and the existence of that something cannot be dependent on some other cause.
What if the universe itself is the ultimate cause? Ultimately, we don't know, but if one can imagine a god that doesn't need caused, it shouldn't be difficult to imagine a universe that doesn't need to be caused. That's not to say anything about whether or not the universe is the ultimate cause or not, but only that it shouldn't be ruled out if an ultimate cause is being considered.
>I cannot think of any arguments against cause and effect other than 'the ultimate cause just existed someway or another'. How does that make more sense than 'God created the universe'?
It doesn't. But that's why most atheists do not claim to know how the universe came to exist. We know of the Big Bang Theory, which details the expansion of space and time, but what caused that is a total mystery.
We don't have to assume that the universe is the ultimate cause, or that there's a god who's the ultimate cause. We can also say, "I don't know", which is the most honest answer we can give at this time and perhaps the most honest answer we'll ever have.
|
94qxt6
|
CMV: Cause and Effect is a sufficient argument for proving God's existence
|
\[Edit\] Thank you for your comments everybody! I think I got the gist of the arguments against the Cause and Effect argument. While I remain unconvinced of these counter-arguments, I appreciate your comments. I don't think I have time to answer any more comments though.
The universe and all that exists could not exist without an initial cause. We may never be able to understand or prove how the universe started, but an ultimate cause for the existence of the universe exists. If God does not exist, then how would the ultimate cause exist? The ultimate cause cannot cause itself. Something has to cause that ultimate cause, and the existence of that something cannot be dependent on some other cause.
I cannot think of any arguments against cause and effect other than 'the ultimate cause just existed someway or another'. How does that make more sense than 'God created the universe'?
| 1,533,464,583
|
cinnamon_pancake
|
e3n4l3b
|
e3n3dni
| 4
| 2
|
CMV: eSports are sports
I am so sorry about how long this turned out and if you read the whole thing you deserve many upvotes and guilds in the near future.
To start, I know that this topic has been posted before but reading through I feel that those posts lacked a lot about the argument so I wanted to go in depth about the subject.
First, eSports are competitive video game events/tournaments/seasons that the very best players in each game compete in to with money, prizes, fame, etc. It is most popular in South Korea where eSports athletes are idolized, recognized on the street, asked for autographs. Think what Michael Jordan or Tom Brady go through on a day to day basis.
eSports also have a huge audience and revenue. [Between 2014 and 2016 the eSports global audience grew 43% to approx. 292 million viewers. In the same period of time revenue has grown 250% to $463 million](https://www.cnn.com/2016/05/31/sport/esports-is-professional-gaming-a-sport/index.html). This revenue comes from media rights, march, tickets, ads, brand partnerships and more. [By the end of this year, revenue is projected to reach over $1 billion](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-videogames-outlook/global-esports-revenues-to-top-1-billion-in-2019-report-idUSKCN1Q11XY).
I know that audience and revenue do not make something a sport though. Professor Ingo Frobose of the German Sports University has done extensive research and experiments comparing eSports athletes to traditional sports athletes. Obvioulsy there is the physical aspect. What most of you are envisioning is a fat dude with a neck beard sitting at his computer surrounded by cheeto dust and empty mountain dew bottles (sorry if I just described you by accident). Frobose found that eSports athletes have a very high level of hand-eye coordination, even more than table tennis where it is the main athletic ability. He also
> notes that strategy games such as Counter-Strike or League of Legends are extremely complex because, in addition to the motor skills required, the games require a high degree of tactical understanding for an athlete to defeat their opponent.
and he found that
> The amount of cortisol produced is about the same level as that of a race-car driver. This is combined with a high pulse, sometimes as high as 160 to 180 beats per minute, which is equivalent to what happens during a very fast run, almost a marathon
These experiments could lead someone to believe that eSports are actually more demanding than a traditional sport.
[Frobose Source](https://www.dw.com/en/science-shows-that-esports-professionals-are-real-athletes/a-19084993)
Sports teams spend tons of money so that their players stay healthy. They hire nutrition coaches, physical trainers, and anyone who will give them an edge on the competition. eSports teams do the exact same thing. Sam Matthews is the founder of the esports team Fnatic, and will do anything to help his players and his team come out on top.
> [We have a live-in coach, we have analysts, we have...basically a huge support network](http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/31/sport/esports-is-professional-gaming-a-sport/index.html)
There is a widely held notion that a fit body leads to a fit mind, and it is essential for eSports players to be able to think and strategize under pressure and on the fly.
eSports is a thinking sport. The players train themselves so that they know what the opponent is going to do and how to react to it. The opponents don’t want to be predictable so they change up what they are going to do. Reacting to these changes requires split-second decision making and good teamwork. In order to keep their minds in good condition eSports athletes keep their bodies in good condition, exercising and eating healthy. Traditional sports teams also go through these same motions. Before a professional football team plays against an opponent they study the film of previous games and try to determine the weakness. If the other team is not very good at stopping running plays, the game plan for the team will be to run the ball a lot. An eSports team will also try to exploit the weaknesses of the opponent. All of these micro-movements that can define the outcome of the game require intelligence. Intelligence is a key trait in many sports. It is exceptionally important in a sport recognized by over 100 countries and the International Olympic Committee as a sport, chess. [There are 10 main reasons why chess is a sport](https://londonchessconference.com/a-question-of-sport/). The big one is competitiveness.
> Chess involves a relentless struggle against one’s opponent. There is probably no sporting activity in which two people are locked in a competitive struggle of such intensity for such a sustained period of time. One lapse of concentration and suddenly a good position is transformed into a losing one.
eSports have much of the same aspect, with millions of dollars on the line, there is no shortage of competitiveness. Also, one false move and the other team will capitalize possibly losing the game or putting one team at a severe disadvantage. Another important point is the mental aspect and intelligence required to play chess. You have to be thinking multiple moves ahead in order to excel at the game. Esports are the same way and now some scientists now believe certain computer games might have a better indication of exceptional intelligence than chess.
Competing in the Olympics is arguably the highest honor you can get in sports. The Olympics formerly awarded medals for [town planning, drawing, and poetry](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/11/esports-olympic-video-games-ioc-gaming). Something that is included in the Olympics today that requires little physical ability is shooting sports. All the athlete has to do is stand there with a gun and shoot in the general direction of a target. Yet this is widely recognized as a sport and has been included in both the summer and winter Olympics for years. There are talks about including eSports in the 2024 summer games. And even if eSports don’t gain the right of becoming an Olympic sport it does not mean that they cease to be sports. Cricket is a very popular sports in places such as India, and it doesn’t have Olympic recognition.
The Overwatch League, OWL for short, is everything you have in a typical sporting event. A season, playoffs and even an all-star game, different teams being represented in different cities, and large audiences, fame, and money on the line. This format is what most major sports follow and it creates an atmosphere just like that of a traditional sporting event. OWL has gotten huge sponsors like Coca-Cola, T-Mobile, State Farm and more to invest heavily and owners of teams include prominent sports figures like Robert Kraft, owner of the New England Patriots (maybe not the best person I could’ve chose considering recent events but oh well). OWL has been regularly broadcast on ESPN and this weekend, the Stage 1 playoffs are being televised on ABC.
|
I'm going to take a different approach here because this is a topic that I've deliberated on for quite a while.
In my opinion, eSports are not sports because they're *products*. Now, that's not to say that 'traditional sports' haven't been commercialized (they obviously have), but at their core they are completely accessible to everyone. You don't need the MLB's permission to play a game of baseball; the NHL can't shut down the sport of hockey. eSports, on the other hand, are completely proprietary. Riot games, for example, has issued lifetime bans to certain players. I'm not sure about you, but I'm relatively hesitant to call these video games sports... it just seems like they lack the sense of 'collective societal ownership' and history that "traditional sports" have.
​
At the very least, I think some time needs to pass until say that eSports are sports. From what I recall, many video game companies (Riot and Blizzard especially) funnel a lot of money into eSports as it's great marketing for their games. Afaik, neither the LCS nor the OWL are actually profitable for Riot or Blizzard respectively.
​
I hope my reasoning has convinced you, although I recognize that it is a bit abstract and is more based on gut feel... but the definition of "sport" is also a bit of a mess so what can you do lol. I think though that, at the very least, there should be less attention paid to such labels anyway - chess tournaments, debate competitions, competitive programming competitions, etc. are all competitive and well-respective, and they don't feel the need to brand themselves as sports. The term "eSport" is a decent label that effectively communicates what eSports are all about.
​
EDIT: I've got a bunch of responses and don't really have the time to go through them right now unfortunately, although everyone who is disagreeing with me has very valid points. I recognize that my argument doesn't offer much in terms of actual rationale and is a bit arbitrary, so I have little to offer for a rebuttal anyway.
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You deserve an upvote because you made your research and took the time to write a long post. But I have to disaggre. First of all, how many people attend these events, and how much revenue comes from it, doesn’t make it a sport.
Of course playing video games have advantages, improving your coordination reaction time and so on. But what makes a sport a sport, is a physical activity, that can also be competitive. Sport are associated with health, being fit, losing weight, building muscle, or just having fun. The games that have huge competitive events for example the ones you mentioned above, you sit in a chair and barely do any movement. Your cardiovascular system only gets worse from this, sitting for longer periods of time is unhealthy for your spine and just doesn’t make you fitter. Some of your skills might improve, but that doesn’t make it a sport. Reading improves a lot of skills, neithet it is a sport.
You also mentioned that they have physical activites with coaches to keep them in motion, and a healthy mind in a healthy body mindset. This is cool that they are doing it, altough, not a part of gaming itself, when you are gaming you sit still. These activites aren’t essentially of being an e-sports athlete.
I don’t consider chess a sport either, for mostly said reasons. Shooting guns, I can accept it, guns can have huge, very strong recoil that you have to be able to withstand, your aiming has to be top notch, but it, barely passes (at least for me) in the sports category).
VR games are gaining popularity nowadays, and in those games, you move around a lot it will make you sweat if you play that kind of game, you will get fitter. In that case, I wouldn’t have a problem calling VR games actual Sports. Ohh and btw, I don’t have a problem with calling it e-sports. It’s a good name for it, sounds good when I heard it first I knew it was about videogames. But it’s still not a sport.
|
b4gfo8
|
CMV: eSports are sports
|
I am so sorry about how long this turned out and if you read the whole thing you deserve many upvotes and guilds in the near future.
To start, I know that this topic has been posted before but reading through I feel that those posts lacked a lot about the argument so I wanted to go in depth about the subject.
First, eSports are competitive video game events/tournaments/seasons that the very best players in each game compete in to with money, prizes, fame, etc. It is most popular in South Korea where eSports athletes are idolized, recognized on the street, asked for autographs. Think what Michael Jordan or Tom Brady go through on a day to day basis.
eSports also have a huge audience and revenue. [Between 2014 and 2016 the eSports global audience grew 43% to approx. 292 million viewers. In the same period of time revenue has grown 250% to $463 million](https://www.cnn.com/2016/05/31/sport/esports-is-professional-gaming-a-sport/index.html). This revenue comes from media rights, march, tickets, ads, brand partnerships and more. [By the end of this year, revenue is projected to reach over $1 billion](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-videogames-outlook/global-esports-revenues-to-top-1-billion-in-2019-report-idUSKCN1Q11XY).
I know that audience and revenue do not make something a sport though. Professor Ingo Frobose of the German Sports University has done extensive research and experiments comparing eSports athletes to traditional sports athletes. Obvioulsy there is the physical aspect. What most of you are envisioning is a fat dude with a neck beard sitting at his computer surrounded by cheeto dust and empty mountain dew bottles (sorry if I just described you by accident). Frobose found that eSports athletes have a very high level of hand-eye coordination, even more than table tennis where it is the main athletic ability. He also
> notes that strategy games such as Counter-Strike or League of Legends are extremely complex because, in addition to the motor skills required, the games require a high degree of tactical understanding for an athlete to defeat their opponent.
and he found that
> The amount of cortisol produced is about the same level as that of a race-car driver. This is combined with a high pulse, sometimes as high as 160 to 180 beats per minute, which is equivalent to what happens during a very fast run, almost a marathon
These experiments could lead someone to believe that eSports are actually more demanding than a traditional sport.
[Frobose Source](https://www.dw.com/en/science-shows-that-esports-professionals-are-real-athletes/a-19084993)
Sports teams spend tons of money so that their players stay healthy. They hire nutrition coaches, physical trainers, and anyone who will give them an edge on the competition. eSports teams do the exact same thing. Sam Matthews is the founder of the esports team Fnatic, and will do anything to help his players and his team come out on top.
> [We have a live-in coach, we have analysts, we have...basically a huge support network](http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/31/sport/esports-is-professional-gaming-a-sport/index.html)
There is a widely held notion that a fit body leads to a fit mind, and it is essential for eSports players to be able to think and strategize under pressure and on the fly.
eSports is a thinking sport. The players train themselves so that they know what the opponent is going to do and how to react to it. The opponents don’t want to be predictable so they change up what they are going to do. Reacting to these changes requires split-second decision making and good teamwork. In order to keep their minds in good condition eSports athletes keep their bodies in good condition, exercising and eating healthy. Traditional sports teams also go through these same motions. Before a professional football team plays against an opponent they study the film of previous games and try to determine the weakness. If the other team is not very good at stopping running plays, the game plan for the team will be to run the ball a lot. An eSports team will also try to exploit the weaknesses of the opponent. All of these micro-movements that can define the outcome of the game require intelligence. Intelligence is a key trait in many sports. It is exceptionally important in a sport recognized by over 100 countries and the International Olympic Committee as a sport, chess. [There are 10 main reasons why chess is a sport](https://londonchessconference.com/a-question-of-sport/). The big one is competitiveness.
> Chess involves a relentless struggle against one’s opponent. There is probably no sporting activity in which two people are locked in a competitive struggle of such intensity for such a sustained period of time. One lapse of concentration and suddenly a good position is transformed into a losing one.
eSports have much of the same aspect, with millions of dollars on the line, there is no shortage of competitiveness. Also, one false move and the other team will capitalize possibly losing the game or putting one team at a severe disadvantage. Another important point is the mental aspect and intelligence required to play chess. You have to be thinking multiple moves ahead in order to excel at the game. Esports are the same way and now some scientists now believe certain computer games might have a better indication of exceptional intelligence than chess.
Competing in the Olympics is arguably the highest honor you can get in sports. The Olympics formerly awarded medals for [town planning, drawing, and poetry](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/11/esports-olympic-video-games-ioc-gaming). Something that is included in the Olympics today that requires little physical ability is shooting sports. All the athlete has to do is stand there with a gun and shoot in the general direction of a target. Yet this is widely recognized as a sport and has been included in both the summer and winter Olympics for years. There are talks about including eSports in the 2024 summer games. And even if eSports don’t gain the right of becoming an Olympic sport it does not mean that they cease to be sports. Cricket is a very popular sports in places such as India, and it doesn’t have Olympic recognition.
The Overwatch League, OWL for short, is everything you have in a typical sporting event. A season, playoffs and even an all-star game, different teams being represented in different cities, and large audiences, fame, and money on the line. This format is what most major sports follow and it creates an atmosphere just like that of a traditional sporting event. OWL has gotten huge sponsors like Coca-Cola, T-Mobile, State Farm and more to invest heavily and owners of teams include prominent sports figures like Robert Kraft, owner of the New England Patriots (maybe not the best person I could’ve chose considering recent events but oh well). OWL has been regularly broadcast on ESPN and this weekend, the Stage 1 playoffs are being televised on ABC.
| 1,553,326,347
|
ItsTheShepherd
|
ej6o1mf
|
ej6lb6u
| 415
| 91
|
CMV: Sexual liberation and casual sex has harmed women
I grew up very Catholic so it was no surprise that when I initially went to college, I was very chaste. My sophomore year of college I was exposed to "hook up culture" and in the classroom, learned about women's sexual liberation in the 60's. I was sold on the whole idea of women's sexual liberation and casual sex: if men can have sex without strings, why can't women?
So this was my logic, when I had my first casual "hook up" with a guy junior year. *Right* after we finished, he opened the door and asked me to leave. Like I was a prostitute.
I knew it was casual and I didn't expect he and I to date nor did I have any romantic expectations of him, but I expected to be treated with respect and as human being.
My best friend from college, "Lauren" slept with several men on campus. She was proud of her sexuality, she enjoyed herself, and had no qualms about anyone who judged her; this was what liberation had taught us right?.
One day I was sitting behind two guys in the library, two with whom she happened to have slept with with on different occasions. They were talking about her and didn't notice I was there. "The sex was horrible!" "Was her vagina that dry when you hit it too?" one said about Lauren. Then he complained about how he was forced to cuddle with her afterwards. Then went on how she was "passing the pussy."
I had to tell her; she was devastated. She felt as terrible as I did when I got kicked out after sex.
It wasn't just Lauren, another friend "Susan" slept with various basketball players. A male friend told me that the guys referred to her as "the Basketball hoop."
I ended up trying the casual sex thing various times again, all with similar negative experiences and men who only saw me for the value of my vagina. One later claimed he didn't even know me, although he had slept with me several times before. I asked another if we could hangout as friends, without the sex. He immediately told me no, he wanted to keep our relationship purely sexual.
Lauren, Susan, and I all felt like shit when these men's masks came off.
But where was this power I was suppose to feel from being sexual liberated? We were sleeping with these men but they didn't even see us as *human beings.* Sex was just like eating a sandwich to them, they didn't care where it came from. We were just sex objects for men to get off on.
I just can't see how sexual liberation has *helped* women.
Casual sex has made men even more sexist. Men may no longer *publicly* shame women, but in "men's world" the myth of the "virgin-whore" dichotomy still exists on who is "girlfriend material" and who is "pass the pussy" material.
Also, there are tons of consequences that are not communicated initially. For example, sexual liberation does not mean men will respect you afterwards.
Most importantly, people never tell women how men really view casual sex. Men see it as you temporarily letting him use your body. They don't have to respect you as a human being, because we are just sex toys to them. How does treating another human being as an object empower women? How is engaging in dehumanizing behavior empowering? Telling women to emulate the way men have casual sex is telling women to engage in behavior that is cynical and animalistic. How can this be helpful to women?
I think we are conned into believing sexual liberation and casual sex was good for us. I feel like it's been more harmful to women than helpful than anything.
|
I'm sorry you feel that way, but I feel like your experiences being very limited isn't a good representation of the culture as a whole. I also think you're making the mistake of thinking that some of these experiences didn't also happen to women before now. Some men still treated women as sex objects and are just as shitty as they are now. I think the biggest difference is that there's less of a societal pressure to look at the women and make them feel like shit for sleeping with womanizers. And now women can be open about it and get support from other men and women to help them cope and understand their experiences. In the old days people would jus look at you and think "who gives a shit, that's what you get for being a whore". It's different these days. I think the main point you're missing is that a sexual liberation doesn't mean that you still aren't responsible for your choices or have to deal with the consequences, but that you don't have to be publicly shamed for them.
|
> We were sleeping with these men but they didn't even see us as human beings. Sex was just like eating a sandwich to them, they didn't care where it came from. We were just sex objects for men to get off on.
> I just can't see how sexual liberation has helped women. No matter how liberated we feel, when men have casual sex, they reduce us to a sex object. And sexual liberation does not mean men will respect you afterwards. Why would they need to respect someone that has no value to them?
The problem is that you're doing hook-up culture wrong. What you've described above is exactly how you're supposed to feel about your partner. If you're not feeling that way about your partner - that he's just a hard dick to make you feel good - then you're doing it wrong.
You should be eager to leave once sex is done. You and your girlfriends should be referring to your hook-up guys as "the pole" and complaining about how their dicks are too small or how they cum too quickly.
|
6xq7f1
|
CMV: Sexual liberation and casual sex has harmed women
|
I grew up very Catholic so it was no surprise that when I initially went to college, I was very chaste. My sophomore year of college I was exposed to "hook up culture" and in the classroom, learned about women's sexual liberation in the 60's. I was sold on the whole idea of women's sexual liberation and casual sex: if men can have sex without strings, why can't women?
So this was my logic, when I had my first casual "hook up" with a guy junior year. *Right* after we finished, he opened the door and asked me to leave. Like I was a prostitute.
I knew it was casual and I didn't expect he and I to date nor did I have any romantic expectations of him, but I expected to be treated with respect and as human being.
My best friend from college, "Lauren" slept with several men on campus. She was proud of her sexuality, she enjoyed herself, and had no qualms about anyone who judged her; this was what liberation had taught us right?.
One day I was sitting behind two guys in the library, two with whom she happened to have slept with with on different occasions. They were talking about her and didn't notice I was there. "The sex was horrible!" "Was her vagina that dry when you hit it too?" one said about Lauren. Then he complained about how he was forced to cuddle with her afterwards. Then went on how she was "passing the pussy."
I had to tell her; she was devastated. She felt as terrible as I did when I got kicked out after sex.
It wasn't just Lauren, another friend "Susan" slept with various basketball players. A male friend told me that the guys referred to her as "the Basketball hoop."
I ended up trying the casual sex thing various times again, all with similar negative experiences and men who only saw me for the value of my vagina. One later claimed he didn't even know me, although he had slept with me several times before. I asked another if we could hangout as friends, without the sex. He immediately told me no, he wanted to keep our relationship purely sexual.
Lauren, Susan, and I all felt like shit when these men's masks came off.
But where was this power I was suppose to feel from being sexual liberated? We were sleeping with these men but they didn't even see us as *human beings.* Sex was just like eating a sandwich to them, they didn't care where it came from. We were just sex objects for men to get off on.
I just can't see how sexual liberation has *helped* women.
Casual sex has made men even more sexist. Men may no longer *publicly* shame women, but in "men's world" the myth of the "virgin-whore" dichotomy still exists on who is "girlfriend material" and who is "pass the pussy" material.
Also, there are tons of consequences that are not communicated initially. For example, sexual liberation does not mean men will respect you afterwards.
Most importantly, people never tell women how men really view casual sex. Men see it as you temporarily letting him use your body. They don't have to respect you as a human being, because we are just sex toys to them. How does treating another human being as an object empower women? How is engaging in dehumanizing behavior empowering? Telling women to emulate the way men have casual sex is telling women to engage in behavior that is cynical and animalistic. How can this be helpful to women?
I think we are conned into believing sexual liberation and casual sex was good for us. I feel like it's been more harmful to women than helpful than anything.
| 1,504,400,233
|
dukenotredame
|
dmhq7oe
|
dmhptgn
| 103
| 2
|
CMV: I believe that the way you are raised can have long-lasting negative repercussions, that may not be reversible.
I have created this post specifically for myself and will provide personal context (as it does influence my view.) I will also provide a generalized version for discussion.
###Personal Context
>I was raised with the freedom to never have to do homework. I now have no study habits as a young adult, and cannot focus on a book or written material. I was never raised with concern to my hygeine, and as a young adult I still do not brush my teeth, and sometimes do not shower. I was raised by a man that never did anything but sit at a computer all day. Though I loved being outside as a child, here I sit.
>Even though I maintain awareness of my failures, I have yet to make dedicated change on any of them. The hardest part of anything is maintaining a daily routine. I even thought seeking outside help would work, but my significant other seems to have 'lowered' to my level and does not really force me to do anything.
> I really looked for an outside opinion. Therapy, psychiatric help, medication, books. I own a wealth of books intended to fix laziness/procrastination, or individual habits.
##Generalized points of my current view:
* Children are meant to be instilled with good habits early on in their life. They are eager to learn, often by example, and easily impressionable.
* If these habits are not instilled, or worse yet replaced with bad habits, it may be impossible to make change without severe outside influence (military training/other forced internment)
* If there were any reasonable way for an individual to correct these deficiencies, it is the nature of the general public to either *profit from it* or *share it.* One of the other almost universally happens.
* The general instruction is to just **do it.** I imagine this works for someone that just needs the inspiration to do the right thing, but doesn't seem appropriate for 10-20 years (or more) of bad habits having been built.
* This is usually the point where someone might make an immediate action, but I believe when you are raised in this manner (as opposed to acquiring bad habits) you will naturally fail to maintain them.
_____
> *This is a footnote from the CMV moderators. We'd like to remind you of a couple of things. Firstly, please* ***[read through our rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules)***. *If you see a comment that has broken one, it is more effective to report it than downvote it. Speaking of which,* ***[downvotes don't change views](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/guidelines#wiki_upvoting.2Fdownvoting)****! Any questions or concerns? Feel free to* ***[message us](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/changemyview)***. *Happy CMVing!*
|
The beginning is obviously true, so I want to address some things
> And whats wrong about this [profiting from that information]? Help isn't always free and if you want to change something about yourself you have to be willing to make a sacrifice to do so.
I didn't argue that it was wrong. I simply said that it was not really evident anywhere. I have enough money that I would be happy to pay for a guaranteed way to make a difference.
> If a goal can be reached without any effort, then it's not really a worthwhile goal anyway because it's too easy. You aren't going to suddenly pick up good hygiene/study skills overnight. It's a process. One step at a time.
It's just been a lot of one steps. Over years. With no change.
> Being motivated isn't good enough. You actually have to want to do it. It's all about taking the first few steps to get your feet in the water. The rest comes easily.
I assure you that many of these changes are things I want nothing more than to do differently.
> I'm pretty sure at some level you know its your fault that you have bad habits, and you're just looking for someone else or something else to take the blame for your poor life decisions in certain areas.
This I don't agree with, but I feel like you did repond to what I was actually saying. I know my view was wrong, and genuinely wanted it attacked. I haven't been able to shake that feeling that there is nothing I can do (and I'm still not sure) but I wanted someone to be honest, and this sub is plenty good at that.
> I believe you're strong enough to do this on your own, but if you need your wife/significant other or other family/friends to help you take the baby steps. Ask them.
This is the difficult part. I don't have friends anymore. I asked my wife once, and she said she would help. She honestly just wants to be a nice person, and really won't get on my case about anything.
Still giving you a δ, because you did honestly provide the kind of information I needed to ∆ my view a little and, with any luck, try again.
|
while i can understand your reasoning i can disagree
As the common phrase, old habits die hard, suggest it can be extremly diffuclt and tiresome to break habits but speaking from personal experience the habits instilled in you at a young age are reverse able its important to set reasonable goals and work your way up to greater habits maybe dont do anything with hygiene every day but every other day and then make then transition. or instead of saying im going to push aside this much time any go over every thing for the test say this is when im going to have fun and do whatever and this time i dont want nor need to do anything so i studie . you should have small bursts of say 20 minutes of study several times over a longer period of time. im kind of bad at explaining this so i recommend watching cgp greys video 7 ways to maximize misery to get the set reasonable goal point across it also has several stuff thats helpful but not habit related
i hope this maybe helps best of luck
also dude brush your teeth like right now you could get a cavity
|
6qlmnn
|
CMV: I believe that the way you are raised can have long-lasting negative repercussions, that may not be reversible.
|
I have created this post specifically for myself and will provide personal context (as it does influence my view.) I will also provide a generalized version for discussion.
###Personal Context
>I was raised with the freedom to never have to do homework. I now have no study habits as a young adult, and cannot focus on a book or written material. I was never raised with concern to my hygeine, and as a young adult I still do not brush my teeth, and sometimes do not shower. I was raised by a man that never did anything but sit at a computer all day. Though I loved being outside as a child, here I sit.
>Even though I maintain awareness of my failures, I have yet to make dedicated change on any of them. The hardest part of anything is maintaining a daily routine. I even thought seeking outside help would work, but my significant other seems to have 'lowered' to my level and does not really force me to do anything.
> I really looked for an outside opinion. Therapy, psychiatric help, medication, books. I own a wealth of books intended to fix laziness/procrastination, or individual habits.
##Generalized points of my current view:
* Children are meant to be instilled with good habits early on in their life. They are eager to learn, often by example, and easily impressionable.
* If these habits are not instilled, or worse yet replaced with bad habits, it may be impossible to make change without severe outside influence (military training/other forced internment)
* If there were any reasonable way for an individual to correct these deficiencies, it is the nature of the general public to either *profit from it* or *share it.* One of the other almost universally happens.
* The general instruction is to just **do it.** I imagine this works for someone that just needs the inspiration to do the right thing, but doesn't seem appropriate for 10-20 years (or more) of bad habits having been built.
* This is usually the point where someone might make an immediate action, but I believe when you are raised in this manner (as opposed to acquiring bad habits) you will naturally fail to maintain them.
_____
> *This is a footnote from the CMV moderators. We'd like to remind you of a couple of things. Firstly, please* ***[read through our rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules)***. *If you see a comment that has broken one, it is more effective to report it than downvote it. Speaking of which,* ***[downvotes don't change views](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/guidelines#wiki_upvoting.2Fdownvoting)****! Any questions or concerns? Feel free to* ***[message us](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/changemyview)***. *Happy CMVing!*
| 1,501,468,536
|
ThePathLaid
|
dkyaidy
|
dky9wp0
| 3
| 2
|
cmv: Police have the duty to shoot attackers of other people
I’m trying to understand the outrage surrounding the most recent police shooting. From what I understand, if someone attacks someone else with a knife, their life is forfeit. If I can defend myself by shooting someone attacking me, a cop can also act as my agent of self defense. In fact I think it is their moral and legal duty. If someone attacks someone else with a lethal weapon, a cop must act to end the threat. There is no calculation required as to how to save the most lives: sure the knife might not be lethal and the attacker could be sent to jail, but why should the person being attacked be subject to potential death?
Point is, once you show that you intend to maim or kill someone else, you forfeit your right to not be killed. If I was ever in a situation in which I am being attacked, I hope to God the cop doesn’t think “oh damn if I shoot this attacker I might get in trouble”. I hope to God the attacker is shot. And also hope it’s not a taser because those are one-and-done, not very accurate, and less likely to stop the attacker
We can’t have social unrest each time there is a justified shooting. The cost is too high, focus should be on the real issue of police accountability and reform.
|
Are you arguing that they *should* have this duty, or that they *currently do*?
Because if the latter, courts have repeatedly ruled that police do not have a duty to protect individuals they encounter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
>"held that the police do not owe a specific duty to provide police services to specific citizens based on the public duty doctrine"
https://mises.org/power-market/police-have-no-duty-protect-you-federal-court-affirms-yet-again
>"Neither the Constitution, nor state law, impose a general duty upon police officers or other governmental officials to protect individual persons from harm — even when they know the harm will occur,” said Darren L. Hutchinson, a professor and associate dean at the University of Florida School of Law. “Police can watch someone attack you, refuse to intervene and not violate the Constitution.”
>The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the government has only a duty to protect persons who are “in custody,” he pointed out"
Not just a matter of laws in those areas: local and State laws cannot mandate a duty to protect:
https://insidesources.com/the-police-have-no-duty-to-protect/
>"Writing for the majority in Castle Rock vs. Gonzales, Justice Antonin Scalia acknowledged that Colorado’s own statutes required the police to arrest the violator of a restraining order, but ruled that “a well-established tradition of police discretion” overrides the state law."
|
>I’m trying to understand the outrage surrounding the most recent police shooting.
I think that people are getting pretty sick and tired of police shooting, beating, and killing so many people so often in situations where no one is attacking anyone with anything. We're kinda past the point of reserving our outrage until we know for sure that the police had no duty to shoot.
I don't disagree with your logic in a vacuum, but to say "*Why are people upset? This is one instance where the police were justified in murdering a civilian"* is pretty tone-deaf.
|
mvqy4n
|
cmv: Police have the duty to shoot attackers of other people
|
I’m trying to understand the outrage surrounding the most recent police shooting. From what I understand, if someone attacks someone else with a knife, their life is forfeit. If I can defend myself by shooting someone attacking me, a cop can also act as my agent of self defense. In fact I think it is their moral and legal duty. If someone attacks someone else with a lethal weapon, a cop must act to end the threat. There is no calculation required as to how to save the most lives: sure the knife might not be lethal and the attacker could be sent to jail, but why should the person being attacked be subject to potential death?
Point is, once you show that you intend to maim or kill someone else, you forfeit your right to not be killed. If I was ever in a situation in which I am being attacked, I hope to God the cop doesn’t think “oh damn if I shoot this attacker I might get in trouble”. I hope to God the attacker is shot. And also hope it’s not a taser because those are one-and-done, not very accurate, and less likely to stop the attacker
We can’t have social unrest each time there is a justified shooting. The cost is too high, focus should be on the real issue of police accountability and reform.
| 1,619,043,558
|
th3empirial
|
gvdmnyr
|
gvdm4yu
| 15
| 10
|
CMV: Milk Before Cereal ALWAYS
You put milk in first because If you put it last than the cereal will get softer from making direct pressured contact with the fragile cereal. And then you will have to quickly eat the cereal so it doesn’t get too soggy but don’t forget friction causes heat which will makes it soggier. But all this can be avoided when you add milk first and pour in the cereal.
Also milk has to be freezing cold bc who actually likes warm milk in their cereal :(
The point of cereal is to feel the crunch like when you are having soup but the noodles are overcooked who wants that? So if you add cereal last than the risk of no crunch increases. I’d rather be safe than sorry when it comes to important matters like this.
😌💅🏾
|
So I actually agree with you on some level. As someone that despises soggy cereal, I usually put milk in first for things like cocoa puffs or honey nut cheerios.
However, there are some cereals I do enjoy a decent level of sogginess that I add first. For example, Raisin Bran is a pain to eat when purely crunchy and benefits from a decent amount of milk-soakage to become edible. I think it expedites the process and makes Raisin Bran a much more enjoyable experience.
So, though I agree with you in most cases, some cases of cereal improve when not solely crunchy. I mean who wants to eat just flakes of bran. You stab your gums constantly. That shits brutal.
|
Ridiculous. Been putting in milk first since I was a wee lad with my eyes barely at table level.
You add some cereal, eat it repeat till you had enough... then drink the rest of the milk.
But I understand this is not for rookies, as if you don't chew with your teeth you will tear up the roof of your mouth with a cereal like Cap'n crunch, which I don't eat anymore but remember well that learning curve.
The above is written with humor but all points are honest and truthful to my real life.
|
mvpf8f
|
CMV: Milk Before Cereal ALWAYS
|
You put milk in first because If you put it last than the cereal will get softer from making direct pressured contact with the fragile cereal. And then you will have to quickly eat the cereal so it doesn’t get too soggy but don’t forget friction causes heat which will makes it soggier. But all this can be avoided when you add milk first and pour in the cereal.
Also milk has to be freezing cold bc who actually likes warm milk in their cereal :(
The point of cereal is to feel the crunch like when you are having soup but the noodles are overcooked who wants that? So if you add cereal last than the risk of no crunch increases. I’d rather be safe than sorry when it comes to important matters like this.
😌💅🏾
| 1,619,039,085
|
shortqueentn
|
gvdejsg
|
gvddzga
| 4
| 0
|
CMV:North America should legalize prostitution to keep sex workers safe.
Legalizing prostitution will create a safer environment for sex workers and its consumers. With legalization there will be safety standards and regulations including annual health check ups which will lower the spread of STDs. It will also eliminate the criminal elements of prostitution such as physical abuse to sex workers from pimps and consumers. With proper permits this should also prevent the trafficking of sex slaves. Having a governing body will also make it harder for anyone underage to get into prostitution (identification & permits required). Legalizing prostitution will shed light on the negative stigmas around it and give sex workers their civil and labour rights as a person and as a worker.
Sex work may not be an ideal job for many people; however, those who choose to be in this industry should still have the same labour rights.
EDIT ---
Decriminalization over legalization, but still maintain the position of not illegal out right.
|
I see your point. Would you consider an industry that would crack down on cleaning it up if legalized, would employ legit managers instead of reusing the same old pimps that may have past ties in criminal activities. Perhaps that's too optimistic on my part and I do understand about your point of turning a blind eye.
Let me put it this way. Prostitution continues to grow regardless if its legalized or not. But I suppose the difference would be that if it is, it could at least help a lot of sex workers. I will concede that it might not help all of them, but is it all or nothing to make it safer even for the ones that would benefit from legalization?
|
>Even if there are more prostitutes trafficked in to meet the increased demand, the working and living conditions for prostitutes as a group might be vastly improved
If women would be so willing to be sex workers, then the local ones would do it.
But even if they wouldn't, we aren't even talking about fruit-picking guest workers here. It's not like eastern European women are swarming on their own to western countries to be prostitutes. Human Trafficking is by it's nature closely tied to preying on the most vulnerable women on the continent, and either coercing them, or otherwise pushing them into even more vulnerable positions, rather than integrating them into the legal sex work industry where such treatment would't fly.
|
871ehj
|
CMV:North America should legalize prostitution to keep sex workers safe.
|
Legalizing prostitution will create a safer environment for sex workers and its consumers. With legalization there will be safety standards and regulations including annual health check ups which will lower the spread of STDs. It will also eliminate the criminal elements of prostitution such as physical abuse to sex workers from pimps and consumers. With proper permits this should also prevent the trafficking of sex slaves. Having a governing body will also make it harder for anyone underage to get into prostitution (identification & permits required). Legalizing prostitution will shed light on the negative stigmas around it and give sex workers their civil and labour rights as a person and as a worker.
Sex work may not be an ideal job for many people; however, those who choose to be in this industry should still have the same labour rights.
EDIT ---
Decriminalization over legalization, but still maintain the position of not illegal out right.
| 1,521,992,040
|
miss-go
|
dw9qpu9
|
dw9o438
| 29
| 12
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
I'm late to this conversation but wanted to chime in because I think I can offer a view that hasn't been presented yet (from skimming this thread).
First, I'm sorry to hear of your situation but am glad you are getting assistance and in better spirits now. I really hope you and your family survive this ordeal and come out stronger on the other side.
On the existence of God, I felt the same way as you for most of my life, until pretty recently when, due to personal hardships of my own, I started exploring the ideas of spirituality (specifically with DMT). I started reading everything I could find about plant-based medicines and discovered how many of them have ancient origins as shamanic remedies which heal the mind and body by allowing the plant spirits into your body to work their magic. It all sounds like mumbo jumbo at first, but I believe there is some truth to this, as I have had some experiences that support this conclusion.
I think the reason people get hung up on the question of whether God exists is because we always talk about "God" as if it is something external to us, some separate being which must be worshipped and feared, but I reject this belief. We go through life building up our ego - our perception of who we are, and eventually we come to believe we **are** our ego, but we forget that the ego is just a mask. We all are the same consciousness underneath that mask. That bare consciousness with no name, no identity, no memories, no thoughts, just awareness. That is every single one of us at the very core. That is what I believe God is.
If you accept this view, then God truly is omnicient, because everything that is knowable in the universe must be known to someone somewhere, even if that someone isn't necessarily human. I believe there are higher dimensional beings that manifest only as energy that we can't see because they are outside our range of visual perception, and they can communicate with us either subconsciously in a dream state or through entering altered states of consciousness, but most people have their minds closed off to such things so they simply reject the idea of spirituality altogether, or worse, they are taken in by spiritual charlatans who lead them down a path of more suffering and self-deceit. But if you open your mind to these possibilities and begin to listen silently, the universe will speak to you and guide you toward your true purpose.
Remember, just a few years ago I was just as cynical as you about all this. I felt lost and hopeless and had no one to rely on to help me out of hard times. On a whim one day I decided to try magic mushrooms at a festival and that experience sent me down a rabbit hole of discovery that literally transformed my entire belief system and I realized how wrong I had been my entire life. This process took a few years but I can honestly say that I'm a better, stronger person now than ever before. Once you understand your purpose everything will begin to make sense as you discover that the suffering you have endured is what shaped you into the person the universe needs you to be.
If I were in your shoes, I would seriously look into plant and mushroom based therapy. Some species of mushrooms have incredible healing properties (cordiceps, lion's mane). I don't want to get into all that here but if you'd like to discuss it you can pm me.
Anyway, I hope this helps and good luck to you and your family.
|
> While this god may very well know of our existence it would be largely uninterested and or completely ignorant of us as individual entities. It would be akin to you throwing away a moldy loaf of bread, you may well be away that there are billions of living organisms there, but youre more concerned with having to run to the market again. Sure, you could easily give that mold culture the means to survive indefinetly and even propser, does this make you a wicked god?
>
>
This is you misunderstanding the power and nature of God because of your small (relative to God) human mind. You know there are billions of living organisms on the moldy loaf of bread, but, as a human, you don't have the power to know the life and experience of each small little cell on that loaf of bread. You just know it is a culture of billions of organisms. God, on the other hand, has the power to know every human by name. To know the trials and struggles of every human that has ever existed. And even more than that, he even has the power to know every single cell on that moldy piece of bread as well (phrases in the bible such as "even the hairs of your head are all numbered" and "He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names." show that, from a Christian perspective, this is actually a thing). He knows us as individual entities, and even more than that, those "lower entities" that you yourself look down on? He has the power to know all of them as well.
If you have questions about (the Christian) God, this website is a good resource: https://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-life.html (and that link in particular explains how to be saved)
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3nc9rl
|
e3lzn3q
| 0
| -1
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
**Δ** Actually, that's entirely possible right? Maybe I am challenging the views commonly held in the southern most portion of the United States. To me, I could even entertain the possibility that we're part of something akin to an ancestor simulation, with someone at the controls who bears little resemblance to what we consider a god. If such a god exists, you're right. Absolutely can't be what is conceived by the family and friends surrounding me.
|
Evolution isn’t about purpose, it’s more about the effect of accidents on successful reproduction. It’s reasonable to suggest that the collection of accidents that led to the existence of sadness created a situation that helped signal to the larger community that support was needed, thereby helping sad people recover and eventually increase their odds of reproducing. But that doesn’t imply that it’s a designed system that should work consistently.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3lr7nv
|
e3lp1a9
| 87
| 59
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
Yeah. Existentialism is pretty nice. Life might not have it's own meaning, but that's not stopping me from having mine.
|
What's karma level have to do with asking in a thread?
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3lrgvj
|
e3lqac8
| 27
| 3
|
CMV: The Prophet Muhammad, claimed under Islam as the Most Moral of All Men, was a child rapist.
The hadiths make it clear that he took his wife Aisha for marriage when she was 6. Many Muhammad apologists try to say she was actually much older and the Hadiths in question can't be trusted since they aren't "the word of Allah".. even though many are first hand accounts of the girl herself. By following the logic that the hadiths can't be trusted then we would have little to no knowledge of Muhammad himself and also getting rid of the hadiths turns the Quran into mound of disconnected contextless writings. The Hadith's in question :
* Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151
* 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Sahih Muslim 8:3311
* A’ishah said : I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in." Sunan Abu Dawud 4913 (Ahmad Hasan Ref)
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls." (Sahih) Sunan an-Nasa'i 4:26:3380
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "I used to play with dolls when I was with the Messenger of Allah, and he used to bring my friends to me to play with me." (Sahih) Sunan Ibn Majah 3:9:198
* Aisha said she was nine years old when the act of consummation took place and she had her dolls with her. Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol. 2, p 77
Many defenders also like to point to the context at the time being normal for child brides to take place. Agreed! It was! However again he is a prophet and he is the most moral of all men, there is no way to in todays day and age give him a pass and say its ok to that he only be held to the standards of the society around him at the time, He was founding an entire religion, he was a "holy man" so he should be rightly held to a higher standard, to which he has failed.
​
\*EDIT\* Please see my reply to u/[Subtleiaint](https://www.reddit.com/user/Subtleiaint/) for extensive additional sources
\*EDIT2\* Alright been replying for the better part of 4 hours, plenty of good discussions. Also I want to make it clear that while pointing out that Muhammad may have engaged in some very problematic practices, I'm not attempting to make a blanket commentary on modern day Islam or modern day Muslims, so for those of you that are trying, please stop turning it into that. That said I will have to come back later to continue the discussions and replies.
|
I don't know much about Islam, the little I know is that it's not a monolith and that you can't just handwave away whether or not the hadiths - and which - should be taken into consideration. In fact, my understanding is that this sort of stuff is a huge deal, and the reason why there are different factions of Islam who go to war with eachother (like the Sunnis and the Xiites).
What I can see is that there's an inherent problem in your claim - namely, that you claim the Prophet is regarded as the Most Moral by Islam, but at the same time you think to understand that there's not a unified perspective on what counts, and what doesn't count, as "true" about Muhammad. Outside of the Q'uran, that is.
Now, if your premise were "if the hadiths are true, then Muhammad was a child rapist", then I don't see a way out of agreeing with you. But if the veracity of the hadiths is disputed, as you say it is, then you can't use them to make statements of fact about Muhammad, or anything else, as if they are agreed upon by every muslim. You claim they aren't agreed upon, and therefore, the counter to your argument is built into this very premise.
Finally, my christian-raised mentality would respond that being the "most moral" doesn't mean being perfect, because only God is perfect. In fact, in christianity prophets are anything but perfect - they're people, often deeply flawed, with whom God communicates for some reason. Their word is trusted because they were in communication with God, not because they were impeccable men who did nothing wrong.
But this is a christian take, I don't imagine a muslim would think similarly.
|
There is absolutely evidence that Aisha was 6 when she married Mohammed, there is also evidence that she was an adult when she married him or somewhere in between. Therefore before we get into any accusations about Mohammed we have to satisfy the question of how old she was and here's the problem, we simply don't know.
This raises the question, why are you adamant that she was only six? Unless you can demonstrate an intellectual argument that is more convincing than the scholars who have examined this question before you it's not reasonable to conclude she was six. If it is not reasonable to draw that conclusion then why have you done it? It could be that you are ignorant of the wider evidence relating to her age, in that case I suggest you read some of the contradictory accounts, a quick internet search found this site:
https://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm
If you are already familiar with these arguments I ask why do you discount them? Is it because you find them unconvincing? If it is your going to have to make a damn good argument to that end because, if you don't, I'll assume your aim is simply to disparage Mohammed and that you're not particularly concerned about whether your accusations are accurate or not.
|
mvqyoq
|
CMV: The Prophet Muhammad, claimed under Islam as the Most Moral of All Men, was a child rapist.
|
The hadiths make it clear that he took his wife Aisha for marriage when she was 6. Many Muhammad apologists try to say she was actually much older and the Hadiths in question can't be trusted since they aren't "the word of Allah".. even though many are first hand accounts of the girl herself. By following the logic that the hadiths can't be trusted then we would have little to no knowledge of Muhammad himself and also getting rid of the hadiths turns the Quran into mound of disconnected contextless writings. The Hadith's in question :
* Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151
* 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Sahih Muslim 8:3311
* A’ishah said : I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in." Sunan Abu Dawud 4913 (Ahmad Hasan Ref)
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls." (Sahih) Sunan an-Nasa'i 4:26:3380
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "I used to play with dolls when I was with the Messenger of Allah, and he used to bring my friends to me to play with me." (Sahih) Sunan Ibn Majah 3:9:198
* Aisha said she was nine years old when the act of consummation took place and she had her dolls with her. Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol. 2, p 77
Many defenders also like to point to the context at the time being normal for child brides to take place. Agreed! It was! However again he is a prophet and he is the most moral of all men, there is no way to in todays day and age give him a pass and say its ok to that he only be held to the standards of the society around him at the time, He was founding an entire religion, he was a "holy man" so he should be rightly held to a higher standard, to which he has failed.
​
\*EDIT\* Please see my reply to u/[Subtleiaint](https://www.reddit.com/user/Subtleiaint/) for extensive additional sources
\*EDIT2\* Alright been replying for the better part of 4 hours, plenty of good discussions. Also I want to make it clear that while pointing out that Muhammad may have engaged in some very problematic practices, I'm not attempting to make a blanket commentary on modern day Islam or modern day Muslims, so for those of you that are trying, please stop turning it into that. That said I will have to come back later to continue the discussions and replies.
| 1,619,043,608
|
Drewsef916
|
gvdvtuc
|
gvdv9eo
| 455
| 70
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
This is an anecdote that may or may not be helpful, but it does speak to an observable trend.
When my wife became disabled (a long since diagnosed case of Lupus became far worse rather suddenly), we had a tremendous outpouring of support from 'the church.' I single quote it because as we had moved around, this wasn't a single congregation.
While not every church has the power to support individuals as ours were, they are usually well equipped to point people in the right direction. Local pastors ought to know which state services are available to you, which charities to inquire at, and so on.
You don't have to believe in God, but I'd seriously consider giving God's people a try.
Also, lawyers. Disability lawyers.
|
Sorry, u/Literotamus – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
> **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1).
If you would like to appeal, [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+Literotamus&message=Literotamus+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/94k9lf/-/e3lvlog/\)+because...). Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3lykf4
|
e3lwj65
| 2
| 1
|
CMV:North America should legalize prostitution to keep sex workers safe.
Legalizing prostitution will create a safer environment for sex workers and its consumers. With legalization there will be safety standards and regulations including annual health check ups which will lower the spread of STDs. It will also eliminate the criminal elements of prostitution such as physical abuse to sex workers from pimps and consumers. With proper permits this should also prevent the trafficking of sex slaves. Having a governing body will also make it harder for anyone underage to get into prostitution (identification & permits required). Legalizing prostitution will shed light on the negative stigmas around it and give sex workers their civil and labour rights as a person and as a worker.
Sex work may not be an ideal job for many people; however, those who choose to be in this industry should still have the same labour rights.
EDIT ---
Decriminalization over legalization, but still maintain the position of not illegal out right.
|
http://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/outlawing-the-purchase-of-sex-has-been-key-to-swedens-success-in-reducing-prostitution
What is most effective is criminalizing BUYING sex (aka the demand side of the equation) but not criminalizing those who sell sex.
The Swedish approach had been more effective in reducing human trafficking than the Dutch legalization approach you're advocating.
|
I heard some guy put it well.
Don't legalise it, but decriminalise it. This means you shouldn't recognise it as a profession but there should not be sanctions for practicing it. At the very least, reduced sanctions are in order.
|
871ehj
|
CMV:North America should legalize prostitution to keep sex workers safe.
|
Legalizing prostitution will create a safer environment for sex workers and its consumers. With legalization there will be safety standards and regulations including annual health check ups which will lower the spread of STDs. It will also eliminate the criminal elements of prostitution such as physical abuse to sex workers from pimps and consumers. With proper permits this should also prevent the trafficking of sex slaves. Having a governing body will also make it harder for anyone underage to get into prostitution (identification & permits required). Legalizing prostitution will shed light on the negative stigmas around it and give sex workers their civil and labour rights as a person and as a worker.
Sex work may not be an ideal job for many people; however, those who choose to be in this industry should still have the same labour rights.
EDIT ---
Decriminalization over legalization, but still maintain the position of not illegal out right.
| 1,521,992,040
|
miss-go
|
dw9tyk0
|
dw9j1vp
| 80
| 16
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
**Δ** Actually, that's entirely possible right? Maybe I am challenging the views commonly held in the southern most portion of the United States. To me, I could even entertain the possibility that we're part of something akin to an ancestor simulation, with someone at the controls who bears little resemblance to what we consider a god. If such a god exists, you're right. Absolutely can't be what is conceived by the family and friends surrounding me.
|
Evolution isn’t about purpose, it’s more about the effect of accidents on successful reproduction. It’s reasonable to suggest that the collection of accidents that led to the existence of sadness created a situation that helped signal to the larger community that support was needed, thereby helping sad people recover and eventually increase their odds of reproducing. But that doesn’t imply that it’s a designed system that should work consistently.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3lr7nv
|
e3lp1a9
| 87
| 59
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
I won't argue with your point of view, I generally agree and as a definite atheist I'm not interested in a discussion on beliefs.
I'd argue that even from this perspective, being personally kind and helpful to the people around you is to your own and everyone else's benefit. If everyone helped the people around them when they need it, life for the people they help improves. Maybe those people will learn from that example and help others in turn. One act of kindness gives more than just the immediate, tangible benefits.
A god-less perspective doesn't have to be a dark and hopeless one. I genuinely believe the universe is absolutely indifferent to everyone's suffering, because on a cosmic scale we are specks of dust, gone in the blink of an eye. But that just means you need to make the most of the time you have, and spend as much as possible of it making the people you care about happy. Life is fleeting, and nobody could ask more of anyone except to do their best to improve the quality and happiness of their own lives and those of the people you care about.
I don't have much advice for your specific situation I'm afraid. Just keep going, friend. Your family need you and you need them. Do your best for them, and take comfort in the fact that that is all anyone can do. Dont forget to look after yourself as well, and don't be afraid to ask for help when you need it.
|
I'll throw in on this one.
I have thought about this a lot, so this is a gross oversimplification of my internal arguments.
Two important things to remember according to the Christians. 1) God promised happiness on earth if everyone followed the commandments, or put more simply "love thy neighbor as you love yourself". If everyone followed this, then no one like you would be able to suffer because of the outpouring of support. 2) God promised a beautiful kingdom for all that are suffering on earth. I honestly don't know why people are so hellbent on disproving God, it is so much better to know that he promised a happy afterlife and hope he exists.
Now for why things are so bad, that gets more complicated. Simple answer is free will. Another answer, think about every book you've ever enjoyed. Even children's books. They all have conflict and resolution, it is an important part of the human condition. You don't want your kids to do bad things, but you let them make mistakes and you're there to guide them down the right path. Is it so difficult to think that on a grander scale, this is what God is doing?
I wish you all the best. I always tell people if you're in a bad place, negative thoughts don't help. What can it hurt to have some faith and believe that things will get better? At the very least you'll have a positive message in your mind. Also, you'd probably do better to talk to a priest about this than random people on reddit.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3m60pf
|
e3m3wg0
| 2
| 1
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
I am so, so sorry about your situation. I hope you find peace and support.
The problem you're describing is known as ["the problem of evil"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil) and it is something Christians have had to struggle with figuring out their answers to for centuries. It sounds like your friends are [strict determinists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism#With_free_will), a common belief in Evangelical Christian circles that holds to the idea that everything happens for a reason. However, many Christians do not hold to this view. I am a Christian (not evangelical) and a [compatibilist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism). I believe that God is real, and loving, and also that he does not intend evil, and yet evil happens. One particularly good book that summarizes my position is [*The Doors of the Sea: Where Was God in the Tsunami?*](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/863944.The_Doors_of_the_Sea).
The idea many compatibilists, like Hart and myself, have is that God is the absence of evil, just as darkness is the absence of light. God is never in that evil, and he regrets suffering as a thing. But that's kind of the point of Christianity: I believe that God never wanted evil for us, and that eventually, "all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well" (quoted from Julian of Norwich) on the New Earth ("Behold, I am making all things new" Revelation 21:5). I believe that's why God sent Jesus Christ and why he has a plan of redemption for all things. The idea that you can "earn your misfortune" is very against what the Bible says: consider the [story of Job](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Job)!
And the idea that all evil has a purpose assumes that God condones that evil, yet the New Testament shows Jesus regularly calling out injustice and helping the poor, the sick, and those ostracized by society. The Bible does all it can to show that negative actions do not always lead to negative consequences, and likewise, positive actions do not always lead to positive consequences.
The question you're likely left with regarding this situation, is why wait? Why wouldn't God solve suffering right now if he's all-powerful and doesn't intend evil? A plan for redemption in the future does no good for you right now. Honestly, I don't know, and yet I believe that God is with me when I'm suffering. When Jesus was on earth, right before he resurrected his friend Lazarus, he wept (John 11). It's a strange passage: why would Jesus weep when he knows that his friend will be fine? He knows that he is able to bring Lazarus back from the dead. He knows there is no reason to weep. And yet, people around him are suffering, and his friend is dead. He weeps. And then he restores Lazarus's life. I don't know why he chose to do it in this way, but I'm not God. I don't believe I can ever understand an all-knowing all-powerful being. And I have to trust in that plan of redemption. But I understand why others do not. One doesn't hold to religion through rationality alone--that's kind of the whole point of faith.
I'll PM you about donation details.
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Let me try to give you another perspective.
First, the concept of God that you are fighting against, is a shadow of the reality, not the reality, religion is like the explanation of where do babies come from, to children, since they can't comprehend the complex reality, we talk to then using simplifications and symbolism. So instead of sex, we get birds carrying the children.
So let me break the baby talk to you and give my definition of god, that goes beyond religion and beyond atheism, there you will find a few people that call themselves pantheists.
In the pantheistic belief, god is the universe, God is everyone, we created the universe to experience the universe.
Now that is a hard pill to swallow, and for the ego entrapped mind, it is impossible, but if you can use your imagination, it all becomes really simple and obvious.
Now let's take another look at the suffering that you are referring to.
Since God is us, every child that starves is a god, but also everyone that goes by that child and never bother to help, they are God also.
Suffering is a symptom of the ignorance of our identity when we see ourselves as me and others as others, you are creating the suffering that you will at the same time experience.
But that is ok, there is no death, your wife, and all life is one.
We suffer to learn to care, we cant make people immortal, but we can give then love for the time that they are here.
And before you think this is the words of someone that never encountered suffering, my father died when I was 6 and my mother when I was 13. I didn't starve, but I remember thinking that no one really wanted me, they were encumbered by me and my younger brother. I had a lot of anger, and I blamed a god I didn't believe for what happened to me, but then I got it.
You are suffering because people are complacent to your suffering, no one cares, (a few do) but that is on us, we are the ones that are hurting, and we are the ones letting the hurt happen. We don't help others, and they don't help us.
Is a collective sin, but we are getting better, some of us are starting to understand that the suffering of one, is the suffering of us all. After a breaking point, there will be a new world.
Just like in westworld, we need to suffer in order to become human. Until then, we are little more than talking animals.
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94k9lf
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3m87oj
|
e3lspr7
| 3
| 0
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
Im not really here to convince you that god exists but i will say diamonds are made through preassure i could never imagine what your situation feels like but just remember that almost every great person whether in history or just in everday life had to overcome something absolutely horrible this is not the end of the story just a roadblock and just remember that if you manage to overcome this situation you which is absolutely possible you will undoubtedly become someones who has transcended modern day suffering
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Sorry, u/kittyfox3 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
> **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1).
If you would like to appeal, [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+kittyfox3&message=kittyfox3+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/94k9lf/-/e3ls3x4/\)+because...). Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3ltjiv
|
e3ltgjz
| 6
| 1
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
OP i'll start by extending my sympathy to your situation. You're burdened by the tragedy of life placed square upon your shoulders and i'm sure i'll never understand how acute the pain is.
First, we need to be careful with the word "God," because it is the most abstract and misunderstood words in existence. I strongly believe, because of how subjective the idea is, that most arguments on God arise because each person defines it differently, so everything means something different to everyone involved. But we can generalize. Feel free to argue here, but i'll define God as: The highest ideal a person holds, consciously or unconsciously. So, here, God does not exist in a physical sense, but in more of a metaphysical sense. So the forces of nature reign supreme, there's no control or intelligent design behind any of this... but these forces cause untold suffering and pain. This is why life is tragic. Because life is already hard and short, and at any moment you can develop a debilitating condition or get caught in a hurricane, which makes life just that much more difficult and harder than it needs to be.
This tragedy, unfortunately, is a condition of existence. **God did not create this; rather, God was created in response to this.** To give people a method of finding meaning in the world, in the face of untold tragedy and suffering.
This is hard for a lot of people to grasp... why believe in a God that made so much suffering in the world. But it's thinking about the problem in the wrong way. Before the creation of this conception of God, people had to bear the tragedy of their lives with nothing behind them. Now, God is used as a mechanism for humans to overcome the tragic nature of their existence. It's used to say: My life is difficult and full of suffering, but I'm going to CONFRONT THIS HORRIBLE TRAGEDY, and I am going to craft or find MEANING FROM IT. I will make my life meaningful IN SPITE OF THIS TERRIBLE TRAGEDY THAT I MUST BEAR...
This is the God ideal. Accepting your fate and soldiering on in spite of the tremendous difficultly you face... to create meaning in the world and to still do good despite having EVERY REASON/JUSTIFICATION TO DO OTHERWISE.
This isn't the happiest interpretation of things, but I believe it's sound enough to at least give someone meaning when they find themselves alone in a dark place. I hope things get better for you OP.
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Let me try to give you another perspective.
First, the concept of God that you are fighting against, is a shadow of the reality, not the reality, religion is like the explanation of where do babies come from, to children, since they can't comprehend the complex reality, we talk to then using simplifications and symbolism. So instead of sex, we get birds carrying the children.
So let me break the baby talk to you and give my definition of god, that goes beyond religion and beyond atheism, there you will find a few people that call themselves pantheists.
In the pantheistic belief, god is the universe, God is everyone, we created the universe to experience the universe.
Now that is a hard pill to swallow, and for the ego entrapped mind, it is impossible, but if you can use your imagination, it all becomes really simple and obvious.
Now let's take another look at the suffering that you are referring to.
Since God is us, every child that starves is a god, but also everyone that goes by that child and never bother to help, they are God also.
Suffering is a symptom of the ignorance of our identity when we see ourselves as me and others as others, you are creating the suffering that you will at the same time experience.
But that is ok, there is no death, your wife, and all life is one.
We suffer to learn to care, we cant make people immortal, but we can give then love for the time that they are here.
And before you think this is the words of someone that never encountered suffering, my father died when I was 6 and my mother when I was 13. I didn't starve, but I remember thinking that no one really wanted me, they were encumbered by me and my younger brother. I had a lot of anger, and I blamed a god I didn't believe for what happened to me, but then I got it.
You are suffering because people are complacent to your suffering, no one cares, (a few do) but that is on us, we are the ones that are hurting, and we are the ones letting the hurt happen. We don't help others, and they don't help us.
Is a collective sin, but we are getting better, some of us are starting to understand that the suffering of one, is the suffering of us all. After a breaking point, there will be a new world.
Just like in westworld, we need to suffer in order to become human. Until then, we are little more than talking animals.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3m6iaw
|
e3lspr7
| 2
| 0
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
**Δ** Actually, I have been entertaining that exact idea- that perhaps god exists, but is indifferent to us and not necessarily evil. Thanks for helping me along. You're incredibly insightful on a number of levels, especially your extension into the plight of the poor vs rich. I also agree that human ego is really over-inflated, by it's very nature self-centered. We do over estimate our importance. Understanding that might be a key coping mechanism, smacks of stoicism even, which I can respect :)
I wondered what happened with my Karma, kinda relieved now that /r/assistance is an option. I am already making my battle plan how to get to the next step. I wasn't necessarily asking for that, but I can't thank you enough!
I think also just saying you hope you read how I conquered this is so inspiring. Thanks for that I'm almost crying. It's nearly impossible for me to cry (in my entire life, I can count it on one hand), but it does make me feel better when it happens. I have a BS in Biology that i'm only recently putting to use. I came up with an idea to cure recalcitrant cancers and ran it by my wife's Oncologists. They liked it, said would write my recommendation to go back for my MD/PhD. My wife reached out the Lung Cancer Alliance and a few weeks ago they paid for our flight and hotel stay in DC for their conference where she (even in her fragile state) spoke before the senate and congress, advocating for lung cancer patients. While there I had access to really top level researchers that also attended the conference. The ones from Johns Hopkins really liked the idea, no one could poke a hole in it. In theory it could cure any cancer that can be DNA sequenced and compared to normal cells. Maybe I should try to get into school, they are more forgiving of variability in performance and disabilities in general. Maybe I'll cure cancer and write about it, about the help I got here in my darkest moment.
Those small acts of kindness you mention.. They mean so much in a time like this.
|
Let me try to give you another perspective.
First, the concept of God that you are fighting against, is a shadow of the reality, not the reality, religion is like the explanation of where do babies come from, to children, since they can't comprehend the complex reality, we talk to then using simplifications and symbolism. So instead of sex, we get birds carrying the children.
So let me break the baby talk to you and give my definition of god, that goes beyond religion and beyond atheism, there you will find a few people that call themselves pantheists.
In the pantheistic belief, god is the universe, God is everyone, we created the universe to experience the universe.
Now that is a hard pill to swallow, and for the ego entrapped mind, it is impossible, but if you can use your imagination, it all becomes really simple and obvious.
Now let's take another look at the suffering that you are referring to.
Since God is us, every child that starves is a god, but also everyone that goes by that child and never bother to help, they are God also.
Suffering is a symptom of the ignorance of our identity when we see ourselves as me and others as others, you are creating the suffering that you will at the same time experience.
But that is ok, there is no death, your wife, and all life is one.
We suffer to learn to care, we cant make people immortal, but we can give then love for the time that they are here.
And before you think this is the words of someone that never encountered suffering, my father died when I was 6 and my mother when I was 13. I didn't starve, but I remember thinking that no one really wanted me, they were encumbered by me and my younger brother. I had a lot of anger, and I blamed a god I didn't believe for what happened to me, but then I got it.
You are suffering because people are complacent to your suffering, no one cares, (a few do) but that is on us, we are the ones that are hurting, and we are the ones letting the hurt happen. We don't help others, and they don't help us.
Is a collective sin, but we are getting better, some of us are starting to understand that the suffering of one, is the suffering of us all. After a breaking point, there will be a new world.
Just like in westworld, we need to suffer in order to become human. Until then, we are little more than talking animals.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
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joshingkatie
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e3lta5i
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e3lspr7
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
I'll throw in on this one.
I have thought about this a lot, so this is a gross oversimplification of my internal arguments.
Two important things to remember according to the Christians. 1) God promised happiness on earth if everyone followed the commandments, or put more simply "love thy neighbor as you love yourself". If everyone followed this, then no one like you would be able to suffer because of the outpouring of support. 2) God promised a beautiful kingdom for all that are suffering on earth. I honestly don't know why people are so hellbent on disproving God, it is so much better to know that he promised a happy afterlife and hope he exists.
Now for why things are so bad, that gets more complicated. Simple answer is free will. Another answer, think about every book you've ever enjoyed. Even children's books. They all have conflict and resolution, it is an important part of the human condition. You don't want your kids to do bad things, but you let them make mistakes and you're there to guide them down the right path. Is it so difficult to think that on a grander scale, this is what God is doing?
I wish you all the best. I always tell people if you're in a bad place, negative thoughts don't help. What can it hurt to have some faith and believe that things will get better? At the very least you'll have a positive message in your mind. Also, you'd probably do better to talk to a priest about this than random people on reddit.
|
> While this god may very well know of our existence it would be largely uninterested and or completely ignorant of us as individual entities. It would be akin to you throwing away a moldy loaf of bread, you may well be away that there are billions of living organisms there, but youre more concerned with having to run to the market again. Sure, you could easily give that mold culture the means to survive indefinetly and even propser, does this make you a wicked god?
>
>
This is you misunderstanding the power and nature of God because of your small (relative to God) human mind. You know there are billions of living organisms on the moldy loaf of bread, but, as a human, you don't have the power to know the life and experience of each small little cell on that loaf of bread. You just know it is a culture of billions of organisms. God, on the other hand, has the power to know every human by name. To know the trials and struggles of every human that has ever existed. And even more than that, he even has the power to know every single cell on that moldy piece of bread as well (phrases in the bible such as "even the hairs of your head are all numbered" and "He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names." show that, from a Christian perspective, this is actually a thing). He knows us as individual entities, and even more than that, those "lower entities" that you yourself look down on? He has the power to know all of them as well.
If you have questions about (the Christian) God, this website is a good resource: https://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-life.html (and that link in particular explains how to be saved)
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3m3wg0
|
e3lzn3q
| 1
| -1
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
I sometimes like to think of us as the microorganisms in the body of the mega organism we consider to be the divine, so tiny that it takes no real conscious notice of us. Our deaths go as unnoticed as the deaths of blood cells in our body. What we see as "divine" action is usually just confirmation bias, but if it's anything, it's probably just some tiny passing portion of the mega organism we call "God" or "the universe" or whatever acting out of pure instinct on a completely nonhuman level of consciousness...like, sort of absently scratching an itch on its ass we caused for half a second.
I'm sort of an agnostic panentheist, basically, and I think probably this mega organism is just too huge to really notice us much. I also acknowledge the total lack of proof for the existence of such a thing and see that it makes a lot more sense to just conclude there is no God. Karma is clearly as false as Santa, imo; too many good things happening to bad people and vice versa, too much suffering, etc.
That's just my opinion. I think your view seems perfectly valid.
|
If there is no god than who am I talking to?
Here is the plan brother. Stop looking for people to help you, like you've noticed they're mostly living paycheck to paycheck. Look for people suffering in similar ways that you are. This is called a community of vulnerability and they can be quite powerful. Once you find enough people you can all contribute a little money to get a high-powered lawyer or maybe a congressman- I don't know it's your life and you're God so you can figure it out. Once you get the ball rolling your "Christian" "friends" might contribute with donations or volunteering. But your core support will be from the others in your situation. God is a social construct, so reconstruct her in your favor. Lead the holy crusade. I believe in you.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3lvfr1
|
e3ltm68
| 8
| 3
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
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I do have a minor counterpoint.
The universe is indifferent to suffering and god is not there. I don't disagree with that. Evolution created suffering, so naturally the universe is indifferent to it.
But humans evolved pro-social tendencies to try to combat suffering. So even if the universe is indifferent to suffering, humans are trying to reduce suffering.
That is why we have all this medicine. Medicine (which sadly didn't work for you and your wife, granted) helps eliminate suffering. Agricultural science helps eliminate the suffering of malnutrition. Even the SSA program which failed you was designed to combat suffering. Economics helps combat the suffering of poverty.
So there are efforts to combat suffering, but they come from humans. Not god or the universe.
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Sorry, u/kittyfox3 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
> **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1).
If you would like to appeal, [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+kittyfox3&message=kittyfox3+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/94k9lf/-/e3ls3x4/\)+because...). Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
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94k9lf
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
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Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
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joshingkatie
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e3lwt8m
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e3ltgjz
| 2
| 1
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
**Δ** Actually, that's entirely possible right? Maybe I am challenging the views commonly held in the southern most portion of the United States. To me, I could even entertain the possibility that we're part of something akin to an ancestor simulation, with someone at the controls who bears little resemblance to what we consider a god. If such a god exists, you're right. Absolutely can't be what is conceived by the family and friends surrounding me.
|
Evolution isn’t about purpose, it’s more about the effect of accidents on successful reproduction. It’s reasonable to suggest that the collection of accidents that led to the existence of sadness created a situation that helped signal to the larger community that support was needed, thereby helping sad people recover and eventually increase their odds of reproducing. But that doesn’t imply that it’s a designed system that should work consistently.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3lr7nv
|
e3lp1a9
| 87
| 59
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
Do you consider humans to be a part of the universe?
|
Well since Trump is widely hated and mocked around the world (and for obviously good reason), I wouldn't be surprised.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3m5mjq
|
e3luje3
| 1
| 0
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
Youre looking at it the wrong way. The world is a cold evil place filled with sadness and terrible things. That is true. But. Everything good that has ever happened occurred despite of all this. Every person that became great, every person that found happiness....you guessed it, they lived in this same often times shitty world.
So what im saying is its extremely easy to focus on the shitty parts, but focus on the parts that arent shitty. Thats all you can do anyway.
|
But without constraints, choices are not choices at all.
If you were unable to suffer, something would absolutely be lost, especially within the framework of any major religion. And within that framework, taking away your suffering, while retaining anything meaningful is impossible to even comprehend. What is good if you remove the concept of bad from existence? It ceases to make sense. I'm not sure you're appreciating the meaning of what you're saying here. How do you take something away without losing anything at all?
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3mk812
|
e3m8hpf
| 1
| 0
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
I challenge your hope as a waste of emotion. I used to believe - but after what I’ve been through- I don’t anymore. It’s a random crap shoot and predators will tear you apart.
I’m sorry you are going through this - life is messy, cruel and confusing. There’s no justice nor karma.
|
That's why moral absolutism makes more sense. The idea that this world is meaningless is an absurd idea. It's obvious that we are the most important thing in the universe that we know of. We are alive and without bounds. Nothing like us has ever existed before or likely exist again.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3mjj9h
|
e3mhhqy
| 2
| 1
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
I am a cancer survivor myself coming back from stage lV. It has made me evaluate a lot of things including god because of the hardships i went through and still going through. I strongly believe that it all about your karma and what happens to you now or even in your next life is just where you stand on your karma meter. That explains that why some people who are really nice die so early while the troublemakers continue to live on. I believe that that we have very limited understanding of universe and nature and there is something that we have not been able to comprehend. There may not be an intelligent being controlling but some physics of nature at work. Your fruits are obtained based on your karma meter. I have personally seen people going through things whatever their astrology predicted. It is sad that astrology hasn’t gotten the attention it needs due to its imperfections as a science and the people practicing it.
There is plan for everyone. Be strong and keep finding your way out. I know it is easier said than done but keep that hope and optimism. All the best
|
I really really struggled with calvanism. On the one hand, on an emotional level, it's completely unnaccaptle. If God is just flippantly choosing who does and doesn't get saved, where is the justice in that? It basically boils down to everyone going to hell for simply existing; no one has any control over their actions and yet they get eternal punishment for it. Except of course for the lucky few who win the eternal lottery and get to go to heaven.
However, on a logical level I can't come up with a solid argument against it. If God is omniscient and omnipotent. Than he knows everything that is going to happen and he has control over everything that happens. He can see how his influence will impact every human in existence. He knows who will and will not choose him, and he can alter the variables of the universe to adjust that to suit his whim.
The mere existance of an omniscient and omnipotent entity implies that everything is preordained.
I can't think of any logical argument with that that is still compatible with Christianity.
So either Christianity is horrifically unjust, or its illogical. I can't find another solution.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3mdrtg
|
e3m5r4i
| 2
| 1
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
As a non religious individual I often consider the fact that a "god" may very well exist, but considering the scope of both power and persuasion an individual of a god calibre would employ, it would be reasonable to assume that such an entity would view us as interesting and important as you would a single celled organism.
While this god may very well know of our existence it would be largely uninterested and or completely ignorant of us as individual entities. It would be akin to you throwing away a moldy loaf of bread, you may well be away that there are billions of living organisms there, but youre more concerned with having to run to the market again. Sure, you could easily give that mold culture the means to survive indefinetly and even propser, does this make you a wicked god?
You can see this type of escalates behavior even among humans, those that rise to staggering levels of wealth usually can see and comprehend the plight of the poor, but tend to offer little or no compassion or understanding, something I'm sure in your situarion can attest to.
Its common of humanity to perceive ourselves as important despite the fact that in the grand scheme of things, we probably, as cynical as it may sound, just arent.
As far as the universe being indifferent to suffering, you're likely right, as a whole.
But even small acts of kindness on individual basis can profoundly change that. For what its worth, I took the few spare moments i had to up vote everything I could find of yours to get you the karma needed for your post. I too, among far to many others are in a situation similar to your own. I wish you well through all of the trials and tribulations you will endure, and hope to read about how you conquered them in a post in a few years time.
TLDR: god, gods(or God) may very well exist and we just aren't significant enough to matter.
edits: some grammar mistakes I made on phone.
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Have you ever played a computer game like *The Sims* or *Cities: Skylines*? Perhaps *X-COM* or some other strategy game where you play as an eye in the sky or, kind of a god? I'm asking because that's the closest we can become like a god. Otherwise I could compare it to being a teacher or a parent, or any role where there's responsibility for other people who are growing.
Humans don't like suffering. Animals don't like suffering. But some rules of existence can't be fathomed otherwise. Even if every sentient being just ate rocks, they'd still have to compete for rocks. Then we'd eat all the rocks on a planet over time and die, or shrivel the planet so much. This example is pretty ridiculous but that's all we really have, given what we know about life. And in the end, things still need to die.
Some suffering is tangibly worse than other suffering, but the human brain hasn't adapted to somehow understand the span of suffering. When someone rich can't afford a third BMW, if they've only known comfort, then their brain is going to fire off the same signals. It's not fair to everyone else and it really isn't fair to them that they have to internally struggle over something they have no control over in that sense. But the only way to be otherwise would to have everyone be omniscient in some sense. Then we'd just be a bunch of gods fighting, which is exactly what happens in mythology anyway. It's what happens to God in the Bible when he gets really upset and angry at people.
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94k9lf
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3lrxbr
|
e3lowxy
| 584
| 39
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
You are absolutely right, the universe is indifferent to suffering, there is no afterlife, one day you will be forgotten.
But doesn’t that mean you should make the most of your finite time? Do whatever brings you joy, we’re all gonna die, let’s try and die happy when our time comes.
|
Let me try to give you another perspective.
First, the concept of God that you are fighting against, is a shadow of the reality, not the reality, religion is like the explanation of where do babies come from, to children, since they can't comprehend the complex reality, we talk to then using simplifications and symbolism. So instead of sex, we get birds carrying the children.
So let me break the baby talk to you and give my definition of god, that goes beyond religion and beyond atheism, there you will find a few people that call themselves pantheists.
In the pantheistic belief, god is the universe, God is everyone, we created the universe to experience the universe.
Now that is a hard pill to swallow, and for the ego entrapped mind, it is impossible, but if you can use your imagination, it all becomes really simple and obvious.
Now let's take another look at the suffering that you are referring to.
Since God is us, every child that starves is a god, but also everyone that goes by that child and never bother to help, they are God also.
Suffering is a symptom of the ignorance of our identity when we see ourselves as me and others as others, you are creating the suffering that you will at the same time experience.
But that is ok, there is no death, your wife, and all life is one.
We suffer to learn to care, we cant make people immortal, but we can give then love for the time that they are here.
And before you think this is the words of someone that never encountered suffering, my father died when I was 6 and my mother when I was 13. I didn't starve, but I remember thinking that no one really wanted me, they were encumbered by me and my younger brother. I had a lot of anger, and I blamed a god I didn't believe for what happened to me, but then I got it.
You are suffering because people are complacent to your suffering, no one cares, (a few do) but that is on us, we are the ones that are hurting, and we are the ones letting the hurt happen. We don't help others, and they don't help us.
Is a collective sin, but we are getting better, some of us are starting to understand that the suffering of one, is the suffering of us all. After a breaking point, there will be a new world.
Just like in westworld, we need to suffer in order to become human. Until then, we are little more than talking animals.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3lt380
|
e3lspr7
| 11
| 0
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
How can a conscious being recognize good when there is nothing to contrast it with?
|
Maybe God designed us in such a way that he can't know what we are going to do. I'm just brainstorming here.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
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joshingkatie
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e3mfxnj
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e3m70h8
| 1
| 0
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
Just because bullshit happens to good people doesn't mean a God doesn't exist. True, if that God is the concept taught in many religions where prayer can make a difference and God chooses when to intercede or not, there's a lot of evidence to suggest that God doesn't exist then -- or he's a cruel sumbitch.
But imagine that God somehow actually created this Universe (whether it is physical which we perceive or we are just in some sort of sim). Either case, it's mainly a complex computer program. Let's say that the big bang happened and flung matter out and we evolved into what we are, etc. All of what is to be was already programmed and pre-determined at the instant of the bang (assuming no external forces outside of known existence introduced random interference).
So, if God is the programmer then he knows the future just like I know the future if I write a program to do something and control the input to it. It will produce the output that I programmed.
Now, with all that in mind, prayers don't matter except maybe to make you feel better. They don't change the outcome of anything because everything is pre-determined. That is the case whether there is a God, SIM programmer, or there is no supreme being.
So yes, the universe is indifferent to suffering, but that doesn't prove there is no God. It's just not the type of God that we think it to be. God is a creator and nothing else -- if He exists.
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I'll throw in on this one.
I have thought about this a lot, so this is a gross oversimplification of my internal arguments.
Two important things to remember according to the Christians. 1) God promised happiness on earth if everyone followed the commandments, or put more simply "love thy neighbor as you love yourself". If everyone followed this, then no one like you would be able to suffer because of the outpouring of support. 2) God promised a beautiful kingdom for all that are suffering on earth. I honestly don't know why people are so hellbent on disproving God, it is so much better to know that he promised a happy afterlife and hope he exists.
Now for why things are so bad, that gets more complicated. Simple answer is free will. Another answer, think about every book you've ever enjoyed. Even children's books. They all have conflict and resolution, it is an important part of the human condition. You don't want your kids to do bad things, but you let them make mistakes and you're there to guide them down the right path. Is it so difficult to think that on a grander scale, this is what God is doing?
I wish you all the best. I always tell people if you're in a bad place, negative thoughts don't help. What can it hurt to have some faith and believe that things will get better? At the very least you'll have a positive message in your mind. Also, you'd probably do better to talk to a priest about this than random people on reddit.
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94k9lf
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3mgbxo
|
e3m3wg0
| 2
| 1
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
The universe doesn't contain localized artifacts that *do* care about human suffering?
|
What's karma level have to do with asking in a thread?
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3lucnm
|
e3lqac8
| 6
| 3
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
The reason religion, philosophy, and spirituality still exist is because science still can't explain everything. It's only observation and measurement based on our limited five senses. Every answer always brings up more questions. Always. Ask a scientist how something can come from nothing.
I can't fathom the suffering you are experiencing, but I know one thing about you: you're curious. It's obvious that you are interested in things, and in the big questions. Let that be your guide throughout life. Purpose? Meaning? Happiness? Indifference? Compassion? Those are just a few a of the things a curious person can spend a lifetime learning about.
You sound open-minded and I think that's the best any of us can be. It's okay to spend time in the dark, and to respect it. But be sure to respect the light, too.
|
If there is no god than who am I talking to?
Here is the plan brother. Stop looking for people to help you, like you've noticed they're mostly living paycheck to paycheck. Look for people suffering in similar ways that you are. This is called a community of vulnerability and they can be quite powerful. Once you find enough people you can all contribute a little money to get a high-powered lawyer or maybe a congressman- I don't know it's your life and you're God so you can figure it out. Once you get the ball rolling your "Christian" "friends" might contribute with donations or volunteering. But your core support will be from the others in your situation. God is a social construct, so reconstruct her in your favor. Lead the holy crusade. I believe in you.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3lv60q
|
e3ltm68
| 36
| 3
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
As for the Universe being indifferent to suffering: Which part of it are you referring to? The Universe includes everything, but the only part that's actually aware of anything (and therefore capable of caring or indifference) is conscious life. That would be us. And we aren't indifferent to suffering. Insofar as conscious creatures are the Universe's eyes, ears, and brains, "it" isn't indifferent to suffering. No supernatural boogeyman-babysitter required.
|
Sorry, u/obey_prezzzz – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
> **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**.
Comments that are only links, jokes or "written upvotes" will be removed. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5).
If you would like to appeal, [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+5+Appeal+obey_prezzzz&message=obey_prezzzz+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/94k9lf/-/e3lmx8q/\)+because...).
|
94k9lf
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3lw5fw
|
e3lthga
| 3
| 1
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
G-d isn't there to take care of everyone and make everything good. The act of praying forces a person to put into words clearly what they want and need and focus on it, something many don't do. It gives you the time to think about everything, in a hopeful light, to possibly find a solution, or, at the very least, what could be done before inevitable to make the best of the current time. The positive hopeful light gives us, at the very least, the possibility to enjoy the moment and the people around us. Knowing what someone is praying for lets us know what their greatest most important thing in their life is in the moment, and if anything, lets those around them bring their own solutions, or at the very least, by praying on their own and inviting others to pray with them, reach out to others sharing the problem.
Most people don't talk about their problems, let alone give others an opportunity to bring solutions weather its in their own hands, someone they know, donations, etc.
Find your strength. Find the things you cherish and love and appreciate them. I know it feels like you're at the bottom of a mountain tired and broken and there's no possible way to climb it, but there's always a solution. It's not beautiful, it's not fun, it's not easy, but once you're on the journey and you turn around and look back, you'll see the beautiful view you've brought to your family to experience and share.
I know it's hard, but close your eyes and imagine yourselves 10, 15, 20 years old. Where are you? What memories do you and your child have of your wife? What's your current job? Now wake up, your wife is alive with memories still able to be made and you are sitting at a fork, unemployed, looking for what possible new trainings/job opportunities you can achieve in your current stage. You did not choose the hand you were dealt, you can choose how to play it.
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>I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence.
You have an extremely common view of God - a creator - that I find alien. This idea that IF our world was in fact created by an intelligent being, that we'd all be happier. And while there's a lot to be said for theodicy and religion, we can put all that aside and focus on God - a broad theism - and ask a simple question.
What if God really doesn't care all that much?
Families die every day? You see suffering? Your life is miserable? Alright: so? Why would a creator necessarily care about any of that? Again, I'm putting aside all the arguments for classical theism and the necessary traits we'd expect of God, of religion, etc.
The fact is, all of the suffering of the universe - and a whole lot more - is completely compatible with God 'being there'. Existing. Hell, God may be getting a kick out of all of this.
And just to tackle another objection: "The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning."
First, I wouldn't expect an 'appearance of fine-tuning' if the universe wasn't intelligently created. I'd expect no appearance of fine-tuning.
Second, scientists have no test for 'whether the universe indicates design'. No scientific test anyway. At most, they have a philosophy, and scientists' philosophies nowadays tend to be pretty crude and inadequate.
tl;dr - God can exist and not give a rip about you, and science can't detect design's presence or lack. You can be angry at God if He does in fact exist, but if He's omnipotent, then a fat lot of good that's going to do you. May as well get angry at gravity while you're at it.
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94k9lf
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3maihs
|
e3lub0o
| 2
| 1
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
I myself am agnostic. I was raised religious and became aware of different points of views as I grew throughout my life.
I do not believe a God is necessarily even a being defined to be good. What if our suffering causes greater goodness in the end? The reality to me is that I am human. As a human is flawed, I don't understand how we could even perceive perfect if we were revealed it.
Our very perception of reality is reliant on the social masses around us. If you lock a human up in solitary they will go mad from loneliness. The realization of God is just above our current capabilities as a species.
I see you already have the karma you need but I will leave a suggestion for future karma farming endeavors, since I can't offer assistance to your financial or medical woes.
If you sort posts by top of the past hour and just drop small comments in each thread, you are bound to gather karma, assuming you aren't being abrasive. Even simple observations can blow up if posted early on and can be vibed with by people.
Good luck
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I don't understand why you have to give one up. If you concede that constraints are what give our choices weight, or conversely, that limitless beings do not have to choose at all, then an omnipotent Christian God would give us choice, free will, and the suffering that comes with constraints. I mean, imagine what taking away our suffering actually means. What would be left? If you rob us of grief, how would we value those that we lose? If you remove our pining over choices, how would our choices matter? If you remove adversity, how would we overcome?
If there is a God, then he would be the source of meaning, given that we exist. And yes, choices are what gives existence purpose. Our choices are what define us, in just about every way. What we choose to do, or to not do, what we choose to say, and to not say. The sum of that is us, and if we assume moral realism, our goodness or badness.
Considering all of this, I don't really know what you mean by "is it worth it". What is the alternative?
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3mhg45
|
e3m6ys1
| 2
| 1
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
Instead of convincing you to believe in God, I would rather let you believe that no such higher being exists. You may ask why? Because I wouldn't dare try Muhammad Ali to stop dancing and fight like Marciano or Tyson. And that too in the ring.
You are presently going through a very vwry tough face in your life. I lost my grandfather due to pancreatic cancer on the day the entrance exam for a university was to be held and of course I missed it. For a whole year I sat at home depressed and doubting my abilities while my friends enjoyed their first year at college, and failed that exam again. But I had given another exam for another university too, and I cleared it. So finally my ass was saved... But my situation was nowhere as complicated as yours and clearly I cannot comprehend the stress you are presently going through. All I can tell you from my experience is that this ain't the time to decide whether or not you must believe in God. This is the time when you instead of cursing God for his works, should instead take the bat in your hand and walk towards the pitch of life yourself. You get what I mean? Stop thinking about God or anything related to him. That's it. For centuries wise men on whose work our world now stands have contemplated on the existence of God and have always come into conflict with each other. What you can do at present is to fight. I say again that I cannot possibly imagine the pain you are going through, but at best all I can do is to help you in some way or the other. Life will be giving you uppercuts and jabs on a daily basis now, but try to find those golden moments with your family when you forget all the problems in the world. You must search for shortcuts, plan for battles ahead in advance, and to get some help. The opportunity, the golden moment when you will have found a way to win will present itself. And probably in your battle you may encounter God....
Well did i told you about a theory of God i made in my gap year? I don't believe in Big Bang coming just out of nowhere. It seems counter-intuitive. I believe that Gods and Godesses are beings of another universe who reached such a level of progress that they eventually decided to pass on their legacy to another race in another universe. Just like we have children so that they can carry our lagacy into tyr future, Gods created us so that their legacy continues in case their own universe ends (read Big Crunch and Big Bang. If the universe hosting the *parents* of human civilization has gone a big crunch, then my theory has some validity.) I believe that we all can at least consider the possibility of such Gods who don't interfere in this universe. :-)
At the end of my noob help, all I can do is to wish you with my standard greetings:
#Live long and prosper 🖖
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Let me try to give you another perspective.
First, the concept of God that you are fighting against, is a shadow of the reality, not the reality, religion is like the explanation of where do babies come from, to children, since they can't comprehend the complex reality, we talk to then using simplifications and symbolism. So instead of sex, we get birds carrying the children.
So let me break the baby talk to you and give my definition of god, that goes beyond religion and beyond atheism, there you will find a few people that call themselves pantheists.
In the pantheistic belief, god is the universe, God is everyone, we created the universe to experience the universe.
Now that is a hard pill to swallow, and for the ego entrapped mind, it is impossible, but if you can use your imagination, it all becomes really simple and obvious.
Now let's take another look at the suffering that you are referring to.
Since God is us, every child that starves is a god, but also everyone that goes by that child and never bother to help, they are God also.
Suffering is a symptom of the ignorance of our identity when we see ourselves as me and others as others, you are creating the suffering that you will at the same time experience.
But that is ok, there is no death, your wife, and all life is one.
We suffer to learn to care, we cant make people immortal, but we can give then love for the time that they are here.
And before you think this is the words of someone that never encountered suffering, my father died when I was 6 and my mother when I was 13. I didn't starve, but I remember thinking that no one really wanted me, they were encumbered by me and my younger brother. I had a lot of anger, and I blamed a god I didn't believe for what happened to me, but then I got it.
You are suffering because people are complacent to your suffering, no one cares, (a few do) but that is on us, we are the ones that are hurting, and we are the ones letting the hurt happen. We don't help others, and they don't help us.
Is a collective sin, but we are getting better, some of us are starting to understand that the suffering of one, is the suffering of us all. After a breaking point, there will be a new world.
Just like in westworld, we need to suffer in order to become human. Until then, we are little more than talking animals.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3lw6xy
|
e3lspr7
| 4
| 0
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
Are humans not part of the universe? This very post has been made on the premise that we are *not* indifferent.
You might never believe in a God, but you do believe a tiny part of the universe is *not* indifferent.
Now take my upvote and let me know if you agree
|
You are absolutely right, the universe is indifferent to suffering, there is no afterlife, one day you will be forgotten.
But doesn’t that mean you should make the most of your finite time? Do whatever brings you joy, we’re all gonna die, let’s try and die happy when our time comes.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3ltxl4
|
e3lt380
| 66
| 11
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
Dude, the world is just one giant game of sims and god is some 13 year old kid who got told to take out the trash and stop playing when the 1900s rolled around
|
We have freedom of choice and in a roundabout way, we created our own layers of suffering upon suffering. It’s not that God is indifferent, it’s that we were promised choice.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3mjt8f
|
e3m16pd
| 2
| 1
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
The reality from a philosophical view, I think, is that we don’t know if suffering is an actually evil thing. The so called “logical form of evil” isn’t convincing proof of a lack of god because we simply don’t understand the purpose of evil or suffering. We also don’t have the ability to measure all good and evil, we can’t say decisively which one prevails in society.
The way I see it, if god exists (and I do think he exists, to some extent, though I don’t consider myself religious) then suffering is pretty much fine. Victor Frankle said that if there is meaning to everything, then the suffering probably does have grand point. I mean, if god exists, death isn’t a bad thing, it could even be consider a good thing since the struggles of life would be beyond us and we can return to peace. There would still be evil in the world, but if death is actually one of the best things that can happen to a person, then all the death in the world would be a fantastic thing since it would take away the struggle.
Put simply, I don’t believe all the evil in the world proves anything about God. It just proves we don’t like it, which I’m fine with. I’m glad injustice upsets everyone.
|
While I'm not religious, I'm sympathetic to religion, thought not organized religion, or the average religious person. There's a few perspectives that might be worth keeping in mind. There's Deism, which used to be much more popular, especially among your founding fathers. Basically, they believed that God created the universe, that he set everything in motion, but that he does not interfere.
Something that goes along quite nicely with this, is an explanation I heard to the problem of evil and suffering. What would we be without constraints? We would be infinite beings, Gods. We would not have to make choices. We would not even have the ability to be good, to prove or disprove ourselves. There wouldn't be choices. To give meaning to life then, it would make sense for a God to put constraints on it, and to leave us playing the game. That's the only way that it would have any purpose.
I might be wrong, but your description of the universe as being something a scientist would describe, is a tautology. It's only what a scientist would describe, because their method yields descriptive results. The venn diagram of the scientific method and theology do not overlap, and should not be thought of as if they did. I also think the big bang begs the question of what set it off.
|
94k9lf
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3lyk27
|
e3lurq9
| 47
| 32
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
While I'm not religious, I'm sympathetic to religion, thought not organized religion, or the average religious person. There's a few perspectives that might be worth keeping in mind. There's Deism, which used to be much more popular, especially among your founding fathers. Basically, they believed that God created the universe, that he set everything in motion, but that he does not interfere.
Something that goes along quite nicely with this, is an explanation I heard to the problem of evil and suffering. What would we be without constraints? We would be infinite beings, Gods. We would not have to make choices. We would not even have the ability to be good, to prove or disprove ourselves. There wouldn't be choices. To give meaning to life then, it would make sense for a God to put constraints on it, and to leave us playing the game. That's the only way that it would have any purpose.
I might be wrong, but your description of the universe as being something a scientist would describe, is a tautology. It's only what a scientist would describe, because their method yields descriptive results. The venn diagram of the scientific method and theology do not overlap, and should not be thought of as if they did. I also think the big bang begs the question of what set it off.
|
>I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence.
You have an extremely common view of God - a creator - that I find alien. This idea that IF our world was in fact created by an intelligent being, that we'd all be happier. And while there's a lot to be said for theodicy and religion, we can put all that aside and focus on God - a broad theism - and ask a simple question.
What if God really doesn't care all that much?
Families die every day? You see suffering? Your life is miserable? Alright: so? Why would a creator necessarily care about any of that? Again, I'm putting aside all the arguments for classical theism and the necessary traits we'd expect of God, of religion, etc.
The fact is, all of the suffering of the universe - and a whole lot more - is completely compatible with God 'being there'. Existing. Hell, God may be getting a kick out of all of this.
And just to tackle another objection: "The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning."
First, I wouldn't expect an 'appearance of fine-tuning' if the universe wasn't intelligently created. I'd expect no appearance of fine-tuning.
Second, scientists have no test for 'whether the universe indicates design'. No scientific test anyway. At most, they have a philosophy, and scientists' philosophies nowadays tend to be pretty crude and inadequate.
tl;dr - God can exist and not give a rip about you, and science can't detect design's presence or lack. You can be angry at God if He does in fact exist, but if He's omnipotent, then a fat lot of good that's going to do you. May as well get angry at gravity while you're at it.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3lurq9
|
e3lub0o
| 32
| 1
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
>I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence.
You have an extremely common view of God - a creator - that I find alien. This idea that IF our world was in fact created by an intelligent being, that we'd all be happier. And while there's a lot to be said for theodicy and religion, we can put all that aside and focus on God - a broad theism - and ask a simple question.
What if God really doesn't care all that much?
Families die every day? You see suffering? Your life is miserable? Alright: so? Why would a creator necessarily care about any of that? Again, I'm putting aside all the arguments for classical theism and the necessary traits we'd expect of God, of religion, etc.
The fact is, all of the suffering of the universe - and a whole lot more - is completely compatible with God 'being there'. Existing. Hell, God may be getting a kick out of all of this.
And just to tackle another objection: "The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning."
First, I wouldn't expect an 'appearance of fine-tuning' if the universe wasn't intelligently created. I'd expect no appearance of fine-tuning.
Second, scientists have no test for 'whether the universe indicates design'. No scientific test anyway. At most, they have a philosophy, and scientists' philosophies nowadays tend to be pretty crude and inadequate.
tl;dr - God can exist and not give a rip about you, and science can't detect design's presence or lack. You can be angry at God if He does in fact exist, but if He's omnipotent, then a fat lot of good that's going to do you. May as well get angry at gravity while you're at it.
|
Let me try to give you another perspective.
First, the concept of God that you are fighting against, is a shadow of the reality, not the reality, religion is like the explanation of where do babies come from, to children, since they can't comprehend the complex reality, we talk to then using simplifications and symbolism. So instead of sex, we get birds carrying the children.
So let me break the baby talk to you and give my definition of god, that goes beyond religion and beyond atheism, there you will find a few people that call themselves pantheists.
In the pantheistic belief, god is the universe, God is everyone, we created the universe to experience the universe.
Now that is a hard pill to swallow, and for the ego entrapped mind, it is impossible, but if you can use your imagination, it all becomes really simple and obvious.
Now let's take another look at the suffering that you are referring to.
Since God is us, every child that starves is a god, but also everyone that goes by that child and never bother to help, they are God also.
Suffering is a symptom of the ignorance of our identity when we see ourselves as me and others as others, you are creating the suffering that you will at the same time experience.
But that is ok, there is no death, your wife, and all life is one.
We suffer to learn to care, we cant make people immortal, but we can give then love for the time that they are here.
And before you think this is the words of someone that never encountered suffering, my father died when I was 6 and my mother when I was 13. I didn't starve, but I remember thinking that no one really wanted me, they were encumbered by me and my younger brother. I had a lot of anger, and I blamed a god I didn't believe for what happened to me, but then I got it.
You are suffering because people are complacent to your suffering, no one cares, (a few do) but that is on us, we are the ones that are hurting, and we are the ones letting the hurt happen. We don't help others, and they don't help us.
Is a collective sin, but we are getting better, some of us are starting to understand that the suffering of one, is the suffering of us all. After a breaking point, there will be a new world.
Just like in westworld, we need to suffer in order to become human. Until then, we are little more than talking animals.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3lub0o
|
e3lspr7
| 1
| 0
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
>Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail.
Let me try to change one small aspect of your views here: Whomever told you this at SSA that made you think your situation is hopeless, they do not have the final say.
Get. A. Lawyer. I represent people in front of the SSA all the time who were told the same thing. A client of mine had his third kidney transplant. He needs to urinate every hour. Originally because of the standards for transplants, he got SSD. Then after two years they said he "recovered" and could return to work. I represented him in the appeal. The basis for their determination are whether there are jobs in the national economy he could do. At the hearing, the judge asked their vocational expert to identify what those jobs are. The VE identified light duty assembly jobs on a factory floor.
I asked her how far away the bathrooms typically are in these sorts of settings. She said five minutes walk away. I asked her to assume a person would need to spend ten minutes an hour off task (walking to and from the bathroom and using the bathroom). She said based on that, there are no jobs in the economy he can do. Boom, that seemingly small thing took his case from a sure loser to a sure winner to get SSD approved.
A good SSD lawyer might be able to seize on those little things in your case and get you approved again. They don't get a fee unless they win you back benefits from SSA. It's worth sitting with one and talking about it. Won't cost you a thing.
|
Have you ever played a computer game like *The Sims* or *Cities: Skylines*? Perhaps *X-COM* or some other strategy game where you play as an eye in the sky or, kind of a god? I'm asking because that's the closest we can become like a god. Otherwise I could compare it to being a teacher or a parent, or any role where there's responsibility for other people who are growing.
Humans don't like suffering. Animals don't like suffering. But some rules of existence can't be fathomed otherwise. Even if every sentient being just ate rocks, they'd still have to compete for rocks. Then we'd eat all the rocks on a planet over time and die, or shrivel the planet so much. This example is pretty ridiculous but that's all we really have, given what we know about life. And in the end, things still need to die.
Some suffering is tangibly worse than other suffering, but the human brain hasn't adapted to somehow understand the span of suffering. When someone rich can't afford a third BMW, if they've only known comfort, then their brain is going to fire off the same signals. It's not fair to everyone else and it really isn't fair to them that they have to internally struggle over something they have no control over in that sense. But the only way to be otherwise would to have everyone be omniscient in some sense. Then we'd just be a bunch of gods fighting, which is exactly what happens in mythology anyway. It's what happens to God in the Bible when he gets really upset and angry at people.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3lvd1e
|
e3lowxy
| 326
| 39
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
If you're looking for a logical rebuttal, I'll do my best, though it may sound cold.
1st, I've never seen, read, heard or derived any truth about God that forbid it from allowing suffering. Indeed, quite the opposite. If he couldn't allow it than it wouldn't be god. As to why it happens, well, why not? Our universe is a universe if dualities. It's got themes to it. Hot/cold. Rich/poor. Good/bad. Love/hate. Male/female. Macro/micro. Old/young. Fast/slow.
Just about everything is on a scale between two opposing pairs . It would be strange indeed if there was pleasure but no pain. Really, you can't have one without the other.
So if a god made us he made a dual natured universe first, then created us. If God is real, there's nothing that could stop him from doing this. So there can still be a god even if there is suffering. Maybe not the god your friends worship, but still a god.
|
If there is no god than who am I talking to?
Here is the plan brother. Stop looking for people to help you, like you've noticed they're mostly living paycheck to paycheck. Look for people suffering in similar ways that you are. This is called a community of vulnerability and they can be quite powerful. Once you find enough people you can all contribute a little money to get a high-powered lawyer or maybe a congressman- I don't know it's your life and you're God so you can figure it out. Once you get the ball rolling your "Christian" "friends" might contribute with donations or volunteering. But your core support will be from the others in your situation. God is a social construct, so reconstruct her in your favor. Lead the holy crusade. I believe in you.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3lxvvq
|
e3ltm68
| 4
| 3
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
Not sure what you are asking me to help you with, but I interpret it as asking for a new perspective.
I cannot change your mind on God as I agree with you almost completely. If there is a God they are either uncaring and simply do not wish to end suffering or aren’t powerful enough to do so. Either way its no worth worshipping.
You say the universe that scientists observe is completely devoid of love and doesn’t care about us tiny blips in time. I agree with this entirely. But thats the entire infinite space, and you’ll never really experience any of that. Your universe is different. Your universe is how you experience it, what you observe. I can only suggest you find the best people you can to fill your universe with.
As I said earlier Im not religious but I do have faith that if you ask loudly enough people will listen and help.
Good luck, friend.
|
There maybe is a god.
But what makes you think he'd give any degree of shit about us? Maybe we're to god what bacteria are to us - just there.
But regardless of whether there is or isn't one - why would one ever rely on an invisible, allegedly almighty being that doesn't give a shit about you?
At the end of the day, it's not about trying to get into heaven or whatever. It's about being content with everything you've done in your life once you feel your life is running short.
As for god's existence, I'd recommend watching [Dr. Shaym's video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMZ5L5037ac).
My question for you though is - why should you give a shit?
Genuinely, why would you ever have to care if there's some twat silently judging us from above. Why hope for heaven when you die, when you can be creating heaven here? Creating it not for yourself, but for your children AND yourself.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3mkyzf
|
e3m0jqt
| 2
| 1
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
Not gonna tell you there's a God, cos I don't think there is one, but almost every reply in this thread is evidence that people, other human beings, care about your struggles. People are part of the universe, so the universe cares about you. The universe can't be uncaring as long as there are humans in it willing to lend a hand or just a friendly smile of encouragement.
|
Problems and pain aren’t evidence there is no God. How much problems and pain might God have prevented and we don’t know it?
I have adult children. I don’t solve all their problems for them. If I did, I wouldn’t be doing them any *real* favors. If I’m wise enough to know that, surely God is far more wise and knows what’s too much.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3mbled
|
e3lwfwp
| 2
| 1
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
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The true nature of “God” is incomprehensible to the human mind. “God” is the culmination of everything in existence. “God” is also known as “the All”. I don’t think if “God” as a being with human flaws like judgement, anger, jealously etc. rather “God” is the creator and the creation. We are all just fragments of this creation. Freedom of choice is one of the basic truths to being human. Animals run off of programming and evolve unconsciously. We have peaked as far as unconscious evolution and now need to consciously evolve. Don’t worry about finding god or changing your opinion on god; rather look very closely at the creation and you will get a glimpse of the creator. People like their fairy tales, and ghost stories, but in this existential context all that matters is what is real or what is reality. To see reality clearly you must drop all your opinions/conclusions/assumptions/biases etc for these skew your perception to serve themselves and if you think about it they are really irrelevant in this context. Within society they have their place and function but we are discussing existence or “god”. The real issue here is you want to poke the non physical(spirit/god) with a physical stick(logic). Forget god, forget religion, and find the source of joy within you. Everything you experience in this physical reality you experience within you. Tho outside factors can make you feel things, the feelings still come from within. Even 5 senses are interpretations and signals from the brain. So my question for you is; if you could be in complete control of your emotions, if you could simply be joyful 24/7 would you? The first step is creating space between your thoughts, your emotions, and you. Once this bit of space is established you can observe the emotions you are experiencing and chose to let them continue or cease that moment. The same applies to the ramblings of the mind.
Sorry for the rant and formatting I’m on mobile.
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>I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence.
You have an extremely common view of God - a creator - that I find alien. This idea that IF our world was in fact created by an intelligent being, that we'd all be happier. And while there's a lot to be said for theodicy and religion, we can put all that aside and focus on God - a broad theism - and ask a simple question.
What if God really doesn't care all that much?
Families die every day? You see suffering? Your life is miserable? Alright: so? Why would a creator necessarily care about any of that? Again, I'm putting aside all the arguments for classical theism and the necessary traits we'd expect of God, of religion, etc.
The fact is, all of the suffering of the universe - and a whole lot more - is completely compatible with God 'being there'. Existing. Hell, God may be getting a kick out of all of this.
And just to tackle another objection: "The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning."
First, I wouldn't expect an 'appearance of fine-tuning' if the universe wasn't intelligently created. I'd expect no appearance of fine-tuning.
Second, scientists have no test for 'whether the universe indicates design'. No scientific test anyway. At most, they have a philosophy, and scientists' philosophies nowadays tend to be pretty crude and inadequate.
tl;dr - God can exist and not give a rip about you, and science can't detect design's presence or lack. You can be angry at God if He does in fact exist, but if He's omnipotent, then a fat lot of good that's going to do you. May as well get angry at gravity while you're at it.
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94k9lf
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
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Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
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joshingkatie
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e3mbe1z
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e3lub0o
| 2
| 1
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
Maybe this will sound really stupid, but I repeat it to myself every time my life gets seriously fucked up:
"There you go, finding a hidden advantage in an unfortunate circumstance; using pain to take you to the next level. Those are the things that turn players into kings."
\-Damon Pope, Sons of Anarchy
|
That's why moral absolutism makes more sense. The idea that this world is meaningless is an absurd idea. It's obvious that we are the most important thing in the universe that we know of. We are alive and without bounds. Nothing like us has ever existed before or likely exist again.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3ml23r
|
e3mhhqy
| 2
| 1
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
There maybe is a god.
But what makes you think he'd give any degree of shit about us? Maybe we're to god what bacteria are to us - just there.
But regardless of whether there is or isn't one - why would one ever rely on an invisible, allegedly almighty being that doesn't give a shit about you?
At the end of the day, it's not about trying to get into heaven or whatever. It's about being content with everything you've done in your life once you feel your life is running short.
As for god's existence, I'd recommend watching [Dr. Shaym's video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMZ5L5037ac).
My question for you though is - why should you give a shit?
Genuinely, why would you ever have to care if there's some twat silently judging us from above. Why hope for heaven when you die, when you can be creating heaven here? Creating it not for yourself, but for your children AND yourself.
|
Scarcity creates value. In a universe where life is infinite, life has no value. Same thing with joy. If joy is your default state of being, is it really better than "meh"? It's why videogames have health bars, because otherwise there would be no sense of urgency or accomplishment when tasks are completed or meaningful events happen.
Like if you were just born in heaven and never knew anything different would you even appreciate it?
I don't think you would. I think being down here rolling around in the blood and the mud and the degeneracy *and still being a righteous person* is simultaneously what prepares you and qualifies you for understanding, reward, and appreciation.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3m0jqt
|
e3lz43a
| 1
| 0
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
Yaboy Yrock is late to the party, but I'll throw in what I can.
I'm a christian person. I believe in God and the bible and the whole deal. The faith you described, which I assume is the faith many people believe or at least think of when they think Christianity (I've done no research so I can be wrong) is not the faith I hold. I want to make clear that I'm mainly focusing here on the part where you described your friends attributing their happy instances to God, and believing bad things happen when you wrong God. This ideology is quite specifically covered in the book of Job. Dude went from being rich with a family and many servants to being the sole survivor of his family with an intense sickness that left him bed-ridden. His friends told him that he MUST have sinned to deserve this, but he was as good a man as could possibly exist. To my understanding, the point of the story is that life with or without God is totally capable of sucking, things can happen for no reason, and justice is not a concept that we can understand in full. I'm not a scholar though, so don't take my word on it.
I don't think popular christianity is well informed. I've stopped watching TBN and the likes, since they purport that everything is dandy and nice with God and that donating 100 bucks will buy you blessings. I also agree with your implication that well wishes aren't particularly helpful (IE "I'll pray for you"). From the right heart that can be useful, but today I see it as a means for evading responsibility. People are afraid to do good things for the world for reasons I can't understand, and that's a part of my faith I'm struggling right now actually. What's the big problem with baking a cake for your neighbors or idk volunteering at a food bank or giving someone in need an extra room in your house for a night yeah now I'm just spewing words, my bad.
I really wish I could do something tangible to help you man, but from my end of the screen I can only be so useful. Take my updoot, I hope this doesn't anger you but I'll keep you in my thoughts. Your story is incredibly important, and if nothing else I want you to know that you pose a question that too many people are afraid to ask in my world and that should never be forgotten.
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Let me try to give you another perspective.
First, the concept of God that you are fighting against, is a shadow of the reality, not the reality, religion is like the explanation of where do babies come from, to children, since they can't comprehend the complex reality, we talk to then using simplifications and symbolism. So instead of sex, we get birds carrying the children.
So let me break the baby talk to you and give my definition of god, that goes beyond religion and beyond atheism, there you will find a few people that call themselves pantheists.
In the pantheistic belief, god is the universe, God is everyone, we created the universe to experience the universe.
Now that is a hard pill to swallow, and for the ego entrapped mind, it is impossible, but if you can use your imagination, it all becomes really simple and obvious.
Now let's take another look at the suffering that you are referring to.
Since God is us, every child that starves is a god, but also everyone that goes by that child and never bother to help, they are God also.
Suffering is a symptom of the ignorance of our identity when we see ourselves as me and others as others, you are creating the suffering that you will at the same time experience.
But that is ok, there is no death, your wife, and all life is one.
We suffer to learn to care, we cant make people immortal, but we can give then love for the time that they are here.
And before you think this is the words of someone that never encountered suffering, my father died when I was 6 and my mother when I was 13. I didn't starve, but I remember thinking that no one really wanted me, they were encumbered by me and my younger brother. I had a lot of anger, and I blamed a god I didn't believe for what happened to me, but then I got it.
You are suffering because people are complacent to your suffering, no one cares, (a few do) but that is on us, we are the ones that are hurting, and we are the ones letting the hurt happen. We don't help others, and they don't help us.
Is a collective sin, but we are getting better, some of us are starting to understand that the suffering of one, is the suffering of us all. After a breaking point, there will be a new world.
Just like in westworld, we need to suffer in order to become human. Until then, we are little more than talking animals.
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94k9lf
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
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Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
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joshingkatie
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e3mkj3y
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e3lspr7
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
Okay, ready?
I’m gonna give you everything I can think of with my limited knowledge and experience about being a a Christian.
You write that universe is just an uncaring creation and we’re just in a cycle, kinda how nature continues on regardless of what we do.
I think that God exists and more so, is caring and kind.
The thing that the bible places so much emphasis on is the idea that when we go that the actions and principles that we held will decide how our afterlife goes.
It is because of this idea that I personally believe God doesn’t hold much care on the state of a person’s body but rather their spiritual state.
God wants us and loves us, that’s why he sacrifices himself to stave off sin.
I know suffering is horrible, but that’s the life that Christianity promises. That the world will rock you, oppose you, and dislike you, but God loves you.
I wanna talk about your thoughts on prayer. I personally hate it when people talk of prayer, the reason being is the quote, “So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” James 2:17. I really believe that under no circumstance can only faith do anything and I have a strong opposition to many “lukewarm” Christians that live.
I also have a problem with contributing failure and success to people as a result of personal judgement from God.
Thanks for listening. I’ll pray for you and upvote you.
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>I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence.
You have an extremely common view of God - a creator - that I find alien. This idea that IF our world was in fact created by an intelligent being, that we'd all be happier. And while there's a lot to be said for theodicy and religion, we can put all that aside and focus on God - a broad theism - and ask a simple question.
What if God really doesn't care all that much?
Families die every day? You see suffering? Your life is miserable? Alright: so? Why would a creator necessarily care about any of that? Again, I'm putting aside all the arguments for classical theism and the necessary traits we'd expect of God, of religion, etc.
The fact is, all of the suffering of the universe - and a whole lot more - is completely compatible with God 'being there'. Existing. Hell, God may be getting a kick out of all of this.
And just to tackle another objection: "The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning."
First, I wouldn't expect an 'appearance of fine-tuning' if the universe wasn't intelligently created. I'd expect no appearance of fine-tuning.
Second, scientists have no test for 'whether the universe indicates design'. No scientific test anyway. At most, they have a philosophy, and scientists' philosophies nowadays tend to be pretty crude and inadequate.
tl;dr - God can exist and not give a rip about you, and science can't detect design's presence or lack. You can be angry at God if He does in fact exist, but if He's omnipotent, then a fat lot of good that's going to do you. May as well get angry at gravity while you're at it.
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94k9lf
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
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Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
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joshingkatie
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e3lymyj
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e3lub0o
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
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I find Buddhist teachings and practices to be very palliative to deep suffering.
On the contrary to the religious philosophy you've described, Buddhism starts out with the very first precept they teach as "life is full of suffering" (the first noble truth).
The story goes that Buddha was inspired initially by coming into contact with death, disfugurement, poverty, homlessness, illness, etc. This was the entire reason he tried to seek knowledge and became the buddha.
I don't really believe any of their mythology, but one doesn't really have to either. But a lot of the practices and attitudes are helpful.
Meditation for example really does have a ton of scientifically proven benefits. It helps you sort of open up around the things that are causing you suffering, even accepting them, which helps soothe things and helps you also appreciate the good in life.
Or for teachings and attitudes, just for an example, there's a Zen story where the master tells the student "you must go to the place where there is no heat and no cold". The student asks "where is this? There is always heat and cold. You can't escape these". And the master replies, "when it is hot, let it be so hot that it kills you. And when it is cold, let it be so cold that it kills you."
That specific story has really helped me when I've been in times of extreme pain or difficulty. Something about the attitude it describes is amazingly beneficial for dealing with things.
Finally, in the end what gets taught here is that the most important thing is to have compassion and give kindness and help to those around you. So consider it like this, you have a life filled with suffering. And now you will have children. And those children may have to suffer with you. However, you can diminish their suffering through kindness, lightheartedness, being nourishing, and genuinely giving to them with all the compassion you can muster. This will not only help them grow into better humans who suffer less, it radiates all throughout life as we know it, by making them better people they can be better to those around them and make a cycle of goodness (the opposite of the cycles of trauma or poverty or what have you that are often described).
There's another buddhist story I'll share. A man and his daughter are circus performers. Their main act is that the little girl balances standing on the fathers hand, while the father does some form of balancing act himself. When asked, the father says that "the most important thing is that I balance myself. If I make myself into the most optimally balanced base, then she can stand on me. So in order to provide for her, I must focus on myself and tend to myself well, and she must focus on herself, and in this way we help each other".
I think Christianity tries to get at much the same stuff, however ee have a lot of weird associations and interpretations that obscures that part of it. But yeah, I think there's some real vital stuff in some of these teachings especially as they relate to suffering and difficulty.
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Instead of convincing you to believe in God, I would rather let you believe that no such higher being exists. You may ask why? Because I wouldn't dare try Muhammad Ali to stop dancing and fight like Marciano or Tyson. And that too in the ring.
You are presently going through a very vwry tough face in your life. I lost my grandfather due to pancreatic cancer on the day the entrance exam for a university was to be held and of course I missed it. For a whole year I sat at home depressed and doubting my abilities while my friends enjoyed their first year at college, and failed that exam again. But I had given another exam for another university too, and I cleared it. So finally my ass was saved... But my situation was nowhere as complicated as yours and clearly I cannot comprehend the stress you are presently going through. All I can tell you from my experience is that this ain't the time to decide whether or not you must believe in God. This is the time when you instead of cursing God for his works, should instead take the bat in your hand and walk towards the pitch of life yourself. You get what I mean? Stop thinking about God or anything related to him. That's it. For centuries wise men on whose work our world now stands have contemplated on the existence of God and have always come into conflict with each other. What you can do at present is to fight. I say again that I cannot possibly imagine the pain you are going through, but at best all I can do is to help you in some way or the other. Life will be giving you uppercuts and jabs on a daily basis now, but try to find those golden moments with your family when you forget all the problems in the world. You must search for shortcuts, plan for battles ahead in advance, and to get some help. The opportunity, the golden moment when you will have found a way to win will present itself. And probably in your battle you may encounter God....
Well did i told you about a theory of God i made in my gap year? I don't believe in Big Bang coming just out of nowhere. It seems counter-intuitive. I believe that Gods and Godesses are beings of another universe who reached such a level of progress that they eventually decided to pass on their legacy to another race in another universe. Just like we have children so that they can carry our lagacy into tyr future, Gods created us so that their legacy continues in case their own universe ends (read Big Crunch and Big Bang. If the universe hosting the *parents* of human civilization has gone a big crunch, then my theory has some validity.) I believe that we all can at least consider the possibility of such Gods who don't interfere in this universe. :-)
At the end of my noob help, all I can do is to wish you with my standard greetings:
#Live long and prosper 🖖
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94k9lf
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
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Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
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joshingkatie
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e3m2np3
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e3lw6xy
| 5
| 4
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CMV: The argument that Randy Marsh uses against marijuana in South Park is actually more applicable to video games, and serves to illustrate why they are dangerous and damaging.
In S6E16 of South Park, Randy gives Stan the following speech about why he thinks marijuana is bad:
>Stan: I've been told a lot of things about pot, but I've come to find out a lot of those things aren't true! So I don't know what to believe!
>Randy: Well, Stan, the truth is marijuana probably isn't gonna make you kill people, and it most likely isn't gonna fund terrorism, but… **well, son, pot makes you feel fine with being bored. And it's when you're bored that you should be learning some new skill or discovering some new science or being creative. If you smoke pot you may grow up to find out that you aren't good at anything.**
While this argument is meant to be about marijuana, I think it actually applies more specifically to video games.
People who smoke weed will often still engage in creative activity and even go outdoors, get exercise, etc.
But people who play a lot of video games are engaged in an activity that occupies them. While playing video games, you can only passively consume media like podcasts & music. Therefore I think this argument is more applicable to video games, and it serves to illustrate how damaging they are.
I feel like there are few counter-arguments you can make in this regard: one is that you can enjoy them responsibly, or maybe a bit more of a stretch would be to say that you can become skilled enough at video games to the point where you can become competitive. But this is an *extremely small* fraction of those who play video games frequently, and in order to become competitive, you will have to play video games even more than a person that most would consider to be a video game addict. It would literally consume your life, and even then, only for a *chance* at making a profit from it. Not the best bet to make in life.
I guess the most convincing rebuttal I can think of is that video game fandom can lead to someone becoming a video game developer, or a video game journalist. But again, these are very competitive fields in which a vast majority of people will not find success, and a majority of problem gamers will not even attempt in the first place.
There are many amateur musicians who may not ever become financially independent from music, but they garner many other benefits: artistic expression, skill development, social networking, personal enrichment. Being a musician is a respectable occupation or at least a respectable hobby. Video games are not respectable, and in fact many women now specifically say they don't want to date gamers on their dating profiles, and frankly I don't blame them for saying so.
So while Randy's speech may have been about marijuana, I feel like it probably more accurately applies to video games. The main problem is that it makes you *okay with being bored* to an unhealthy degree.
So what do you think, am I being too harsh? Did I miss something beneficial about video games? Change my view.
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Video games can also improve hand-eye coordination, reaction times. They can help you develop problem-solving skills. They can help you learn to work with a team in order to achieve a goal. They can improve your health by being an outlet for stress. There are many real benefits to playing video games.
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I don't see why this wouldn't apply to tons of other things. A similar case could he made for listening to music, reading books, watching movies, and tons of other stuff.
But, ultimately having these downtime activities where you're *not* doing something is important. We shouldn't be doing stuff 24/7. We should be allowed to take breaks and just decompress. As long as you're not doing it to an unhealthy degree they can actually be healthy for you.
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9fea2w
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CMV: The argument that Randy Marsh uses against marijuana in South Park is actually more applicable to video games, and serves to illustrate why they are dangerous and damaging.
|
In S6E16 of South Park, Randy gives Stan the following speech about why he thinks marijuana is bad:
>Stan: I've been told a lot of things about pot, but I've come to find out a lot of those things aren't true! So I don't know what to believe!
>Randy: Well, Stan, the truth is marijuana probably isn't gonna make you kill people, and it most likely isn't gonna fund terrorism, but… **well, son, pot makes you feel fine with being bored. And it's when you're bored that you should be learning some new skill or discovering some new science or being creative. If you smoke pot you may grow up to find out that you aren't good at anything.**
While this argument is meant to be about marijuana, I think it actually applies more specifically to video games.
People who smoke weed will often still engage in creative activity and even go outdoors, get exercise, etc.
But people who play a lot of video games are engaged in an activity that occupies them. While playing video games, you can only passively consume media like podcasts & music. Therefore I think this argument is more applicable to video games, and it serves to illustrate how damaging they are.
I feel like there are few counter-arguments you can make in this regard: one is that you can enjoy them responsibly, or maybe a bit more of a stretch would be to say that you can become skilled enough at video games to the point where you can become competitive. But this is an *extremely small* fraction of those who play video games frequently, and in order to become competitive, you will have to play video games even more than a person that most would consider to be a video game addict. It would literally consume your life, and even then, only for a *chance* at making a profit from it. Not the best bet to make in life.
I guess the most convincing rebuttal I can think of is that video game fandom can lead to someone becoming a video game developer, or a video game journalist. But again, these are very competitive fields in which a vast majority of people will not find success, and a majority of problem gamers will not even attempt in the first place.
There are many amateur musicians who may not ever become financially independent from music, but they garner many other benefits: artistic expression, skill development, social networking, personal enrichment. Being a musician is a respectable occupation or at least a respectable hobby. Video games are not respectable, and in fact many women now specifically say they don't want to date gamers on their dating profiles, and frankly I don't blame them for saying so.
So while Randy's speech may have been about marijuana, I feel like it probably more accurately applies to video games. The main problem is that it makes you *okay with being bored* to an unhealthy degree.
So what do you think, am I being too harsh? Did I miss something beneficial about video games? Change my view.
| 1,536,806,704
|
MrEctomy
|
e5vukzt
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e5vuiih
| 15
| 2
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
I was in a place that made me question why I was here. I focused on the dark parts of my life and wanted to know why they were happening to me, when I considered myself a good person. I had a lot of bright in my life, but I didn't pay attention to it. There is a song by Brand New called Jesus Christ. Theres a line that says, "my bright is too slight to hold back all my dark". I think the song covers what a lot of people feel about life and death pretty well. There are a lot of things in your life that are worth fighting for, and to me...those things are worth more than the hope there might be some magic shit out there that I have waiting for me. On a side note I will literally buy your family icecream any time you want. Just let me know how I can help.
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There maybe is a god.
But what makes you think he'd give any degree of shit about us? Maybe we're to god what bacteria are to us - just there.
But regardless of whether there is or isn't one - why would one ever rely on an invisible, allegedly almighty being that doesn't give a shit about you?
At the end of the day, it's not about trying to get into heaven or whatever. It's about being content with everything you've done in your life once you feel your life is running short.
As for god's existence, I'd recommend watching [Dr. Shaym's video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMZ5L5037ac).
My question for you though is - why should you give a shit?
Genuinely, why would you ever have to care if there's some twat silently judging us from above. Why hope for heaven when you die, when you can be creating heaven here? Creating it not for yourself, but for your children AND yourself.
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94k9lf
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3mo1fi
|
e3m0jqt
| 2
| 1
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
>I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence.
You have an extremely common view of God - a creator - that I find alien. This idea that IF our world was in fact created by an intelligent being, that we'd all be happier. And while there's a lot to be said for theodicy and religion, we can put all that aside and focus on God - a broad theism - and ask a simple question.
What if God really doesn't care all that much?
Families die every day? You see suffering? Your life is miserable? Alright: so? Why would a creator necessarily care about any of that? Again, I'm putting aside all the arguments for classical theism and the necessary traits we'd expect of God, of religion, etc.
The fact is, all of the suffering of the universe - and a whole lot more - is completely compatible with God 'being there'. Existing. Hell, God may be getting a kick out of all of this.
And just to tackle another objection: "The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning."
First, I wouldn't expect an 'appearance of fine-tuning' if the universe wasn't intelligently created. I'd expect no appearance of fine-tuning.
Second, scientists have no test for 'whether the universe indicates design'. No scientific test anyway. At most, they have a philosophy, and scientists' philosophies nowadays tend to be pretty crude and inadequate.
tl;dr - God can exist and not give a rip about you, and science can't detect design's presence or lack. You can be angry at God if He does in fact exist, but if He's omnipotent, then a fat lot of good that's going to do you. May as well get angry at gravity while you're at it.
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Let me try to give you another perspective.
First, the concept of God that you are fighting against, is a shadow of the reality, not the reality, religion is like the explanation of where do babies come from, to children, since they can't comprehend the complex reality, we talk to then using simplifications and symbolism. So instead of sex, we get birds carrying the children.
So let me break the baby talk to you and give my definition of god, that goes beyond religion and beyond atheism, there you will find a few people that call themselves pantheists.
In the pantheistic belief, god is the universe, God is everyone, we created the universe to experience the universe.
Now that is a hard pill to swallow, and for the ego entrapped mind, it is impossible, but if you can use your imagination, it all becomes really simple and obvious.
Now let's take another look at the suffering that you are referring to.
Since God is us, every child that starves is a god, but also everyone that goes by that child and never bother to help, they are God also.
Suffering is a symptom of the ignorance of our identity when we see ourselves as me and others as others, you are creating the suffering that you will at the same time experience.
But that is ok, there is no death, your wife, and all life is one.
We suffer to learn to care, we cant make people immortal, but we can give then love for the time that they are here.
And before you think this is the words of someone that never encountered suffering, my father died when I was 6 and my mother when I was 13. I didn't starve, but I remember thinking that no one really wanted me, they were encumbered by me and my younger brother. I had a lot of anger, and I blamed a god I didn't believe for what happened to me, but then I got it.
You are suffering because people are complacent to your suffering, no one cares, (a few do) but that is on us, we are the ones that are hurting, and we are the ones letting the hurt happen. We don't help others, and they don't help us.
Is a collective sin, but we are getting better, some of us are starting to understand that the suffering of one, is the suffering of us all. After a breaking point, there will be a new world.
Just like in westworld, we need to suffer in order to become human. Until then, we are little more than talking animals.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
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joshingkatie
|
e3lub0o
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e3lspr7
| 1
| 0
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
My personal belief is deism. The main belief is a belief in a higher being(s) but also a strong focus in logic and reason. Thus, membership into organized religion is not done and looking at holy books as nothing more than parables on good behavior/positive ways to live life. It’s a belief that a god or gods exist but man has never accurately comprehended god(s) purpose because we are human. That means that any organized religion, and it’s constant evolutions along with the reinterpretations/revisions of their holy books, are very far off from the actual motivations/intents of god(s).
One of the ideas in deism is that god(s) are/is an absent watch maker. They make the watch, wind it up to get it started, and then let it go without interference. Some people find this idea cold and lonely. I do not and here is why: When you go down the street you don’t expect everyone you pass to rob, attack, rape, or cheat you. On the flip side, they don’t pay your bills, help you cure your sick friend or family member, and they don’t help you with your problems (though they mostly would sympathize with you). They all have the capacity to do any of those things to some degree but they generally do not (with a few rare examples).
We are expected to take care of ourselves/our family and do others no harm just as we silently expect the same from the people we pass in the street. In my belief it’s reasoned the same for God(s). The purpose isn’t to watch over us and intervene. It is up to us to lead a responsible and good life. It is up to us to deal with the random and sometimes tragic things throw at us. It’s how we handle them that defines us. It is up to us. If there is an afterlife that is how we would be judged, not by whatever religious club we joined or by what book we claim. We need to be self-aware.
Have you ever notice the same underlying themes in most religions? Kindness, compassion, charity, bravery, justice, honor, etc. These are all core values that help people succeed in such a chaotic world. The writers of these ancient books realized this and that is why I reason that when they wrote those books they put those moral stories in there. Just the same as how the old children’s stories taught lesson so do all holy books. It doesn’t make any one belief the right one but they all have valuable life lessons that can be learned from them. You just have to be able to interpret the message being conveyed in the story.
On that note, I hope I was concise and clear. I had several real world distractions as I was writing this on my mobile.
Additionally, I hope you are able to take care of your family and that you get as much help as you can in doing so. You are an admirable person for being courageous and virtuous to have never given up despite your circumstances. Your family is very lucky to have you in your lives. Much love to you!
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Instead of convincing you to believe in God, I would rather let you believe that no such higher being exists. You may ask why? Because I wouldn't dare try Muhammad Ali to stop dancing and fight like Marciano or Tyson. And that too in the ring.
You are presently going through a very vwry tough face in your life. I lost my grandfather due to pancreatic cancer on the day the entrance exam for a university was to be held and of course I missed it. For a whole year I sat at home depressed and doubting my abilities while my friends enjoyed their first year at college, and failed that exam again. But I had given another exam for another university too, and I cleared it. So finally my ass was saved... But my situation was nowhere as complicated as yours and clearly I cannot comprehend the stress you are presently going through. All I can tell you from my experience is that this ain't the time to decide whether or not you must believe in God. This is the time when you instead of cursing God for his works, should instead take the bat in your hand and walk towards the pitch of life yourself. You get what I mean? Stop thinking about God or anything related to him. That's it. For centuries wise men on whose work our world now stands have contemplated on the existence of God and have always come into conflict with each other. What you can do at present is to fight. I say again that I cannot possibly imagine the pain you are going through, but at best all I can do is to help you in some way or the other. Life will be giving you uppercuts and jabs on a daily basis now, but try to find those golden moments with your family when you forget all the problems in the world. You must search for shortcuts, plan for battles ahead in advance, and to get some help. The opportunity, the golden moment when you will have found a way to win will present itself. And probably in your battle you may encounter God....
Well did i told you about a theory of God i made in my gap year? I don't believe in Big Bang coming just out of nowhere. It seems counter-intuitive. I believe that Gods and Godesses are beings of another universe who reached such a level of progress that they eventually decided to pass on their legacy to another race in another universe. Just like we have children so that they can carry our lagacy into tyr future, Gods created us so that their legacy continues in case their own universe ends (read Big Crunch and Big Bang. If the universe hosting the *parents* of human civilization has gone a big crunch, then my theory has some validity.) I believe that we all can at least consider the possibility of such Gods who don't interfere in this universe. :-)
At the end of my noob help, all I can do is to wish you with my standard greetings:
#Live long and prosper 🖖
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94k9lf
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3m3pns
|
e3lw6xy
| 8
| 4
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
Life is far from fair. You have been dealt a very poor hand of cards - you can either capitulate or be determined to make the best of it. Don't rely on others for help; there's always recourse in your own actions and efforts. It might not be immediately clear how, but if there's a will, there's a way, and if anyone tells you otherwise, they can fuck off. People have had it worse than you; receiving compassion is only short-term solace and the bottom line is that surviving comes down to stubborn tenacity and perseverance.
|
As David Hume put it, religious people are not people who have made an error in their reasoning and need to be put right, but rather emotional creatures who should be left to pursuit what ever it is they desire.
You constructed the bulk of your argument referencing the bible, which in your view validate the existence of god. But the bible is said to be the word of god...this is called circular reasoning. You assumed the bible to be true in an attempt to argue that god is true.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3m7lzn
|
e3lyz38
| 2
| 0
|
CMV: People should not be shocked by Cambridge Analytica
First, let's look at the act of data collection: Facebook, being a company, has a goal of making money through their revenue streams. Our data is valuable and we already know they sell it (or, anyone who has seen an ad on Facebook should!).
We give up our right to our data once we trade it (our product) as a means of exchange for their service (Facebook). What happens to it after that is no longer our business - we no longer own it, even if we are continuously creating it.
OK, now let's look at where it gets shady: an app collected data who didn't install it; however, those who didn't install it did agree to be connected via Facebook to people who could (and did) install this or many other apps.
The app that collected the data (allegedly intended for research, originally) then did something else with it it, other than what it said it would: namely, sold it.
Here's the only part in this that I see as an issue: Facebook found out and didn't advise users that their data ended up being used in a way that it wasn't advertised it would be.
That said, I'm still off the opinion that once sold/exchanged we give up our right to what is done with it. I didn't lease the data, I traded it.
Perhaps the commotion is largely because people now have to face the fact that they're a product and they gave themselves away cheaply. Still, then why not push to be paid to use Facebook, instead of taking your marbles and running home?
Edit: I don't trust entities in positions of power to follow the laws or behave ethically all the time. An abuse of power does not shock or surprise me.
|
>I don't trust entities in positions of power to follow the laws or behave ethically all the time.
What's shocking is not just that they broke the law or behaved unethically, but that the CEO was willing to brag about it to a potential client. That suggests that the lawbreaking and unethical behavior is a matter of course at CA, and not an isolated slip-up. That also suggests that CA's clients are routinely aware of their illegal activity, and it reflects very badly on anyone who has used their services. That's what's shocking.
|
Facebook is a public company.
It's reasonable and necessary to do so - hence the need for laws, enforcement and trust. You literally can't operate in the modern world without handing over information that you'd regard as sensitive, or that becomes sensitive when combined with other information. You can talk about this company or that company, but without a expectation of trust _to some level_, and a system of accountability for data controllers and processors then we'll simply be unable to operate in society.
|
870n7q
|
CMV: People should not be shocked by Cambridge Analytica
|
First, let's look at the act of data collection: Facebook, being a company, has a goal of making money through their revenue streams. Our data is valuable and we already know they sell it (or, anyone who has seen an ad on Facebook should!).
We give up our right to our data once we trade it (our product) as a means of exchange for their service (Facebook). What happens to it after that is no longer our business - we no longer own it, even if we are continuously creating it.
OK, now let's look at where it gets shady: an app collected data who didn't install it; however, those who didn't install it did agree to be connected via Facebook to people who could (and did) install this or many other apps.
The app that collected the data (allegedly intended for research, originally) then did something else with it it, other than what it said it would: namely, sold it.
Here's the only part in this that I see as an issue: Facebook found out and didn't advise users that their data ended up being used in a way that it wasn't advertised it would be.
That said, I'm still off the opinion that once sold/exchanged we give up our right to what is done with it. I didn't lease the data, I traded it.
Perhaps the commotion is largely because people now have to face the fact that they're a product and they gave themselves away cheaply. Still, then why not push to be paid to use Facebook, instead of taking your marbles and running home?
Edit: I don't trust entities in positions of power to follow the laws or behave ethically all the time. An abuse of power does not shock or surprise me.
| 1,521,984,235
|
weboutdatsublife
|
dw9g7l1
|
dw9bckg
| 10
| 7
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
The reality from a philosophical view, I think, is that we don’t know if suffering is an actually evil thing. The so called “logical form of evil” isn’t convincing proof of a lack of god because we simply don’t understand the purpose of evil or suffering. We also don’t have the ability to measure all good and evil, we can’t say decisively which one prevails in society.
The way I see it, if god exists (and I do think he exists, to some extent, though I don’t consider myself religious) then suffering is pretty much fine. Victor Frankle said that if there is meaning to everything, then the suffering probably does have grand point. I mean, if god exists, death isn’t a bad thing, it could even be consider a good thing since the struggles of life would be beyond us and we can return to peace. There would still be evil in the world, but if death is actually one of the best things that can happen to a person, then all the death in the world would be a fantastic thing since it would take away the struggle.
Put simply, I don’t believe all the evil in the world proves anything about God. It just proves we don’t like it, which I’m fine with. I’m glad injustice upsets everyone.
|
While I'm not religious, I'm sympathetic to religion, thought not organized religion, or the average religious person. There's a few perspectives that might be worth keeping in mind. There's Deism, which used to be much more popular, especially among your founding fathers. Basically, they believed that God created the universe, that he set everything in motion, but that he does not interfere.
Something that goes along quite nicely with this, is an explanation I heard to the problem of evil and suffering. What would we be without constraints? We would be infinite beings, Gods. We would not have to make choices. We would not even have the ability to be good, to prove or disprove ourselves. There wouldn't be choices. To give meaning to life then, it would make sense for a God to put constraints on it, and to leave us playing the game. That's the only way that it would have any purpose.
I might be wrong, but your description of the universe as being something a scientist would describe, is a tautology. It's only what a scientist would describe, because their method yields descriptive results. The venn diagram of the scientific method and theology do not overlap, and should not be thought of as if they did. I also think the big bang begs the question of what set it off.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3lyk27
|
e3lurq9
| 47
| 32
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
I personally am religious (a Christian). I believe that we all came to earth to learn and grow from mistakes/hardships, and they are there for a reason and everyone has to deal with them. Its different for everyone, but i believe they are there for us to help us be better people. Now, I understand why people aren't religious for many reasons, because most of it revolves around intangible things. Its definitely a leap of faith. I don't want to sit and preach and try and convert you to religion, but my advice is this. Keep an open mind to anything, even towards the things you hate/disagree with the most. I hope anything i said wasn't offensive.
|
I do have a minor counterpoint.
The universe is indifferent to suffering and god is not there. I don't disagree with that. Evolution created suffering, so naturally the universe is indifferent to it.
But humans evolved pro-social tendencies to try to combat suffering. So even if the universe is indifferent to suffering, humans are trying to reduce suffering.
That is why we have all this medicine. Medicine (which sadly didn't work for you and your wife, granted) helps eliminate suffering. Agricultural science helps eliminate the suffering of malnutrition. Even the SSA program which failed you was designed to combat suffering. Economics helps combat the suffering of poverty.
So there are efforts to combat suffering, but they come from humans. Not god or the universe.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3ly33f
|
e3lwt8m
| 3
| 2
|
CMV: Sam Harris's program to give ethics an axiomatic foundation is, according to his particular formulation, logically incoherent.
This one is quite simple, and I'm sure that the details can be worked out through discussion. Harris asks us to assume that wellbeing is to be axiomatically regarded as the foundation for our ethical system, that is, the domain of inquiry that includes working out what the aim of an ethical system ought to be.
But this is logically incoherent: every field that concerns itself with a particular domain of inquiry cannot adopt what would be *conclusions* within that domain of inquiry as axioms. For example, in the field of engineering, you can assume that it's good for an engineer to have low cholestorol but not that he ought to build a particular bridge of a particular thickness with a particular material.
On the other hand, within the domain of medicine, it is fine to assume that building such a bridge is the aim but *not* that the engineer should have low cholestorol, because whether or not having low cholestorol is a good thing is a conclusion within the science of medicine.
In the same way, to identify that *wellbeing* is the ethical goal we should strive for is not appropriate as an *axiom* for ethics, as determining what ethical goal we should strive for can only be a *conclusion* for ethics, as that is one of the points on which ethics is designed to seek a conclusion.
Thoughts?
|
> But this is logically incoherent
It seems like you're confusing "incoherent" with "unpersuasive."
You're saying that Harris is begging the question - that he's assuming (by axiom) a conclusion that he wants to reach. I tend agree with you, but I don't think it's any more incoherent than saying something like: "Suppose that strawberry ice cream is better than chocolate ice cream. Then clearly strawberry ice cream is better than chocolate ice cream." It's a bit silly, but it makes sense.
If you want to argue that it's incoherent, you say - for example - that this notion of 'wellbeing' is ill-defined. It seems like Harris pretends that everyone agrees about what wellbeing is, but if it's not clear what wellbeing is then any guidelines for ethical behavior based on it also become unclear.
|
I agree in terms of trying to create a moral framework but in terms of judging actions within an established moral system, a goal needs to be in mind to be able to judge an action on moral grounds. The study of ethics doesn't stop once you find a moral framework. The goal of ethics isn't to figure out what the barometer is, it's to create a moral system, and apply it to the complex situations of real life with real human variables in order to have the most successful civilization.
Harris just identifies the barometer for morality as well-being. You can agree or disagree with that. But without a barometer, you can't even begin to make moral assessments of actions. And the whole point of ethics and creating moral systems is to be able to use a practical and reliable framework for judging an action. If you don't have a goal or a barometer you can't do that. If you can't do that then you've effectively have nothing.
|
9eyhsc
|
CMV: Sam Harris's program to give ethics an axiomatic foundation is, according to his particular formulation, logically incoherent.
|
This one is quite simple, and I'm sure that the details can be worked out through discussion. Harris asks us to assume that wellbeing is to be axiomatically regarded as the foundation for our ethical system, that is, the domain of inquiry that includes working out what the aim of an ethical system ought to be.
But this is logically incoherent: every field that concerns itself with a particular domain of inquiry cannot adopt what would be *conclusions* within that domain of inquiry as axioms. For example, in the field of engineering, you can assume that it's good for an engineer to have low cholestorol but not that he ought to build a particular bridge of a particular thickness with a particular material.
On the other hand, within the domain of medicine, it is fine to assume that building such a bridge is the aim but *not* that the engineer should have low cholestorol, because whether or not having low cholestorol is a good thing is a conclusion within the science of medicine.
In the same way, to identify that *wellbeing* is the ethical goal we should strive for is not appropriate as an *axiom* for ethics, as determining what ethical goal we should strive for can only be a *conclusion* for ethics, as that is one of the points on which ethics is designed to seek a conclusion.
Thoughts?
| 1,536,679,362
|
BBB1685
|
e5siknq
|
e5sid1v
| 3
| 1
|
CMV: Having children is selfish
For the last year or so I have started to realize the selfishness of producing biological children.
First, I will start off with the parents. Ill use mine for example, more specifically my mom. My mom had a wide range of mental issues, at the time of conceiving me she knew she atleast had depression. My moms mother(my grandma), had been in and out of mental hospitals, and from the stories ive heard about her, she sounded down right nuts. Back to my mom, over the years she became her mother, she got crazier and crazier over the years, was mentally and physically abusive, and neglected me and my brothers. My dad up and left when I was ten, but has supported us with more than enough money our whole lives, so ill give him that.
As ive gotten older I have began to worry about the possibilty of developing mental issues, and the large possibility of passing those issues onto biological children.
That is where selfishness comes in. Do parents not worry about these issues? Especially parents who have health issues not related to mental health? Why would i ever want to produce a child knowing there is a large chance they will suffer, just because i want something biologically related to me. Also, how do I know i will be a fit parent? After suffering your entire childhood, wouldnt you want to make sure you were mentally sound and ready to take care of a child(ren).
Next ill move on to children in foster care/orphanages. There is literally hundreds and thousands of children rotting in the foster care system/orphanges all over the world. I cant even fathom bringing more children into the world when I could be giving children a family, children that are ALREADY HERE, and are in need of one.
And lastly, probably the most controversial part of this post, it is not a selfless act to have and raise children. It is not selfless to give birth, the 9 months carrying a child and the hours of labour is not selfless. YOU ARE DOING IT BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO, YOUR CHILD DID NOT ASK YOU TO DO IT FOR THEM. You want to experience the joys of motherhood. Your child is not obligated to be greatful to you for doing it. You chose the responsibility of raising a child. Again, your child didnt ask for it. And, if you do a fantastic job, you give your child what you need to be a happy, healthy and successful person, then yes, your child can be greatful, greatful that you were a good parent.
But if you bring a child into the world, not being finacially prepared, not knowing if you are mentally prepared, not knowing if you may pass on your shitty genes, not considering adopting children who are already here and in need, then you are being selfish. All because you want a child who will look like a mix of you and your partner.
Change my view.
|
Parenting, even parenting poorly, consumes time and resources for little reward that a non-altruistic person would appreciate. Please explain how loss of autonomy and resources, and living with an unappreciative child for decades, would be selfish *in all cases*.
|
But the thing is, nobody wants to put up with a second hand child when they can start off with a "clean slate" with little to no regulation by the government. The ones who do most likely adopt or take in younger children with little to no psychological issues. Meanwhile older kids are left in the system being passed from foster family to foster family.
|
871p1o
|
CMV: Having children is selfish
|
For the last year or so I have started to realize the selfishness of producing biological children.
First, I will start off with the parents. Ill use mine for example, more specifically my mom. My mom had a wide range of mental issues, at the time of conceiving me she knew she atleast had depression. My moms mother(my grandma), had been in and out of mental hospitals, and from the stories ive heard about her, she sounded down right nuts. Back to my mom, over the years she became her mother, she got crazier and crazier over the years, was mentally and physically abusive, and neglected me and my brothers. My dad up and left when I was ten, but has supported us with more than enough money our whole lives, so ill give him that.
As ive gotten older I have began to worry about the possibilty of developing mental issues, and the large possibility of passing those issues onto biological children.
That is where selfishness comes in. Do parents not worry about these issues? Especially parents who have health issues not related to mental health? Why would i ever want to produce a child knowing there is a large chance they will suffer, just because i want something biologically related to me. Also, how do I know i will be a fit parent? After suffering your entire childhood, wouldnt you want to make sure you were mentally sound and ready to take care of a child(ren).
Next ill move on to children in foster care/orphanages. There is literally hundreds and thousands of children rotting in the foster care system/orphanges all over the world. I cant even fathom bringing more children into the world when I could be giving children a family, children that are ALREADY HERE, and are in need of one.
And lastly, probably the most controversial part of this post, it is not a selfless act to have and raise children. It is not selfless to give birth, the 9 months carrying a child and the hours of labour is not selfless. YOU ARE DOING IT BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO, YOUR CHILD DID NOT ASK YOU TO DO IT FOR THEM. You want to experience the joys of motherhood. Your child is not obligated to be greatful to you for doing it. You chose the responsibility of raising a child. Again, your child didnt ask for it. And, if you do a fantastic job, you give your child what you need to be a happy, healthy and successful person, then yes, your child can be greatful, greatful that you were a good parent.
But if you bring a child into the world, not being finacially prepared, not knowing if you are mentally prepared, not knowing if you may pass on your shitty genes, not considering adopting children who are already here and in need, then you are being selfish. All because you want a child who will look like a mix of you and your partner.
Change my view.
| 1,521,994,588
|
samsambobam11
|
dw9oom8
|
dw9o1di
| 3
| 1
|
CMV: As a discipline, history has no merit other than to produce propaganda
I think that as a discipline, history has no merit other than to produce propaganda. What I mean by this is that there is no purpose of proposing or debunking historical claims aside from as a rhetorical device for politics. Actual argument should be made through disciplines such as economics and anthropology and history merely gives interesting anecdotes that can be used to sway the masses. Even if you were 100% sure of a historical claim or 100% sure it was false that does not have any actual importance aside from the usage of that in rhetoric. I am not saying that it is necessarily bad to use history in this way since rhetoric and propaganda can be used for good purposes.
|
Are museums propaganda?
If you see an exhibit where they have the helmet that general so-and-so wore in a war centuries ago, does that have no merit? Whether it's because it's job-creating and revenue-generating for the museum, financially-valuable as a unit to be sold or traded (even if its value is "arbitrary" rather than functional), or because visiting it is a rewarding experience for museum-goers, I think the value of learning about history, whether through artifacts or models (eg a model of an early human site of habitation), is not without merit.
|
History can be used as propaganda. But to say it has no merit is like saying a persons memories have no value except as raw data.
Also, do news and journalism hold any value? What is the difference between history and news? How long does news have to wait before it becomes history? How can we interpret news without having some understanding of history? Can we really understand the wars in the Middle East purely based on economics and anthropology? Are wars anecdotes? How are military leaders supposed to learn strategy and tactics without studying historical battles?
|
6qlm5h
|
CMV: As a discipline, history has no merit other than to produce propaganda
|
I think that as a discipline, history has no merit other than to produce propaganda. What I mean by this is that there is no purpose of proposing or debunking historical claims aside from as a rhetorical device for politics. Actual argument should be made through disciplines such as economics and anthropology and history merely gives interesting anecdotes that can be used to sway the masses. Even if you were 100% sure of a historical claim or 100% sure it was false that does not have any actual importance aside from the usage of that in rhetoric. I am not saying that it is necessarily bad to use history in this way since rhetoric and propaganda can be used for good purposes.
| 1,501,468,360
|
Julius_Aquinas
|
dky8cfs
|
dky85wr
| 6
| 4
|
CMV: Your political views are not a reason to cut ties from family, friends, etc.
‘Tis the season for everyone to say “I have a racist uncle,” “drunk divorced aunt,” etc. I am not saying that your racist uncle or hypocritical aunt have acceptable and/or PC views. Please, let’s not debate the acceptability of these views.
What I want to discuss is the fact that these people, hopefully, mattered to you at some point. Whether it’s your family or a good friend, is it really worth it to cut those ties? “I can’t imagine having any relationship at all with someone who believes such reprehensible things!” Why? If you, or the other person, aren’t mature enough to have a polite, adult conversation about a topic, just don’t talk about it. “I can’t ignore it. They just hound me until I respond.” Be the bigger adult. Change the subject. Flatly tell them that you don’t want to discuss it.
Yes, it’s annoying and takes effort. I just feel that in a world where so many people feel lonely, cutting off people because you have disagreements seems immature and hasty.
I will clarify, I get that some people aren’t polite and you can’t avoid polarizing conditions/conversations. I’m not saying that everyone can be reasoned with. I’ve just been seeing a lot of posts across Reddit advocating for just cutting off family and friends who don’t share your beliefs, and it seems like a little bit of an overreaction.
Example: Every holiday season my mom finds a way to hound me about the fact that I no longer go to church. Every. Single. Time. Rather than let it escalate to a shouting match, I change the topic early and do my best to avoid it altogether. To me, it’s worth the effort to try and maintain my relationship with my mother, even though we have conflicting views.
|
So this is quite relevant to me in two ways.
My family is full of homeopaths. They believe in normal medicine so it isn’t a health issue. But you want to know what they hate? Technology. They don’t even have landline. They pratically live like amish when it comes to modern technology. They believe wifi and 3g are frying our brains. They believe radio signals and phones kill you.
Want to know what I’m studyinf at university? Computer science. I love it. It is the single thing I am most passionate about. You want to talk about databases with me? I’m in love. Want to talk about the possibilities of blockchain? Anything and everything on the subject I have encountered I’ve loved. And I love it passionately.
It’s hard having conversation with people who don’t respect you. And being homeopaths (or supporting them) is a big part of their lives just as computing is a big part of mine. The racist uncle isn’t politley racist, he doesn’t hide those view. And neither does my family.
I’ve done a lot of hard work, I’m in a great university right now, I’m doing really really well at university. I’ve just been accepted for an internship at a really really prestigious company. And if I go home for christmas all my achievements will be shit on. They won’t shout at me or be abusive. They just treat me like I’m a horrible person and that I’m less than them. I don’t think I am. So I’m not spending the holidays with them. Because why should I feel like shit just so they can feel superior? Why should I feel like demoralised and horrible just so we can have a sterotypical christmas? Why can’t I just be happy? And they’ll be happier as well?
The racist uncle doesn’t want his views challenged either. He would be happier without it. If we are accepting polite discourse and not challenging, then cutting someone out is sometimes the only way to go.
|
I agree that family bonds are more important than political opinions.
But for some households, politics are personal. In history many family rivalries have been created in terms of cultural seperation or "family feuds" regarding certain individuals or people.
For example in the 1960's especially in the southern states, if a white girl started dating a black guy and brought him over for Christmas dinner, politically the family would not approve. Racism was ingrained not only personally but politics as the whole "seperate but equal" thing and policies regarding interracial marriage. By the girl bringing him over and imposing different social politcal views, these things became more normal and benefitted society eventually ending alot of racist concepts.
Maybe close minded alt right uncle jimbo needs to open his heart more and SJW little sister needs to accept reality by both being reminded of their extreme poltical agendas.
Families vary, cultural vary, aswell as different parts of the world.
|
a8jvtg
|
CMV: Your political views are not a reason to cut ties from family, friends, etc.
|
‘Tis the season for everyone to say “I have a racist uncle,” “drunk divorced aunt,” etc. I am not saying that your racist uncle or hypocritical aunt have acceptable and/or PC views. Please, let’s not debate the acceptability of these views.
What I want to discuss is the fact that these people, hopefully, mattered to you at some point. Whether it’s your family or a good friend, is it really worth it to cut those ties? “I can’t imagine having any relationship at all with someone who believes such reprehensible things!” Why? If you, or the other person, aren’t mature enough to have a polite, adult conversation about a topic, just don’t talk about it. “I can’t ignore it. They just hound me until I respond.” Be the bigger adult. Change the subject. Flatly tell them that you don’t want to discuss it.
Yes, it’s annoying and takes effort. I just feel that in a world where so many people feel lonely, cutting off people because you have disagreements seems immature and hasty.
I will clarify, I get that some people aren’t polite and you can’t avoid polarizing conditions/conversations. I’m not saying that everyone can be reasoned with. I’ve just been seeing a lot of posts across Reddit advocating for just cutting off family and friends who don’t share your beliefs, and it seems like a little bit of an overreaction.
Example: Every holiday season my mom finds a way to hound me about the fact that I no longer go to church. Every. Single. Time. Rather than let it escalate to a shouting match, I change the topic early and do my best to avoid it altogether. To me, it’s worth the effort to try and maintain my relationship with my mother, even though we have conflicting views.
| 1,545,474,942
|
tnel77
|
ecbwv0j
|
ecb9xps
| 4
| 1
|
CMV: Corporate Diversity Initiatives Generally Do More Harm Than Good
For this post, I will consider "corporate diversity initiatives" to be corporate policies intending to increase the number of "diverse" candidates that they hire or promote. This might include inviting diverse candidates to exclusive networking events, resume reviews, leadership workshops, etc., subjecting non-diverse candidates to greater scrutiny in the hiring/promotion process (or "double-checking" diverse candidates before ruling them out)\*, or evaluating recruiters on the basis of the diversity of the candidates they put forward. Simple statements about desiring diverse candidates or perspectives do not qualify under my definition.
\*Yes, I know of many anecdotal cases of both of these things happening.
Diverse candidates will be considered those whose major demographics (race, sex, sexual orientation, etc) differ from that of the "typical" worker in their industry. For instance, a female engineer, a male teacher, or a black doctor would all qualify under this definition.
As a female interested in computer science, I am one of the intended beneficiaries of these types of policies. However, I think they are harmful for a number of reasons:
1. They can make diverse workers susceptible to [Imposter Syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome) by introducing the possibility that these individuals were hired, at least in part, because of the diversity they bring to the work environment. Even if this individual would have been hired regardless of demographics, they have no way of knowing this for sure and are still susceptible to this phenomenon (which can have severe psychological impacts).
2. They can contribute to a hostile work environment for diverse workers. Non-diverse workers may assume that diverse workers are less qualified (regardless of if that is really true) because of the apparent advantage they get in the hiring and promotion processes. This can cause a breakdown of trust within teams, which ultimately harms their productivity.
3A) *In most cases*, I don't think that diverse teams are inherently more effective than homogeneous ones when diversity is based on demographic characteristics. Yes, I have read several studies suggesting that diverse talent yields better results, but I haven't found any reason why diverse teams (in terms of demographics) would actually cause better results; I suspect that there are some confounding variables at play.
3B) I can think of a handful of contexts where diverse workers would likely have a significant and positive impact on performance, yet these do not seem to be the contexts in which diversity efforts are focused. For instance, it's reasonable to suggest that male elementary school teachers could be more effective in engaging male students, who are considered at-risk in our education system and who experience lower engagement, higher dropout rates, lower grades and lower rates of college attendance as compared to females. However, to my knowledge, there aren't any concerted efforts to encourage more young men to pursue careers in elementary education.
4) If the incentives are strong enough, it can lead to less qualified candidates being hired over more qualified ones due to their unchangeable demographic characteristics, which is both unfair and harmful to workplace productivity. I am not saying that diverse candidates are always (or even on average) less qualified than non-diverse candidates. As an example, let's say a tech company receives 70% of applications from males and 30% from females. If they desire 50% female representation, they will need to hire a greater percentage of the female applicants. Therefore, even if the distribution of qualification of males and females was exactly equal, less qualified female candidates would need to be hired.
5) Diversity in *viewpoint* is extremely important to the quality of a team's output, but I think this is too often conflated with diversity of demographics. Just because there are statistical differences in the way certain groups think about particular issues does not mean that a demographically-diverse team is necessarily more ideologically diverse than a demographically-homogeneous one. It also does not mean that systems are in place to ensure that those with diverse viewpoints are comfortable voicing these opinions to the group, which is necessary for the benefits of diverse opinions to be realized.
So, Change My View!
​
Edit: Thanks for the responses so far. There have been lots of good things discussed, so keep 'em coming!
|
This problem would be so easy to solve if we weren't human.
If we wouldn't subconciously be drawn to a certain gender, look, skin color or anything else we wouldn't have this discussion. If we would be able to turn off our human believes and subjective opinions and be truly objective, equality would be achieved. Unfortunately (?), we can't.
Hiring specialists will always carry around their own bias. Noone is unbiased, even if they claim to be. We are wired to put people into boxes according to our experiences. If you'd always get mugged by a white female, you'd think of white females as thiefs and would try to avoid them. If the black trans individuals always give you the best financal advise you'd be drawn to them if it comes to financial questions and hiring a financial analyst for example.
So, whilst I have the opinion that everybody should have equal opportunities and we shouldn't elevate persons because of their gender, race or similar I also see why it is neccessary. Because otherwise, there wouldn't be equal opportunities. Those who tick the right box with their appearance and traits will always have a better chance and better opportunities than those who don't.
However, do we really contribute to equality by praising women in tech just because they are women in tech? I don't know. Do I have a better idea to reach true equality? No.
So whilst diversity initiatives might not be ideal, what better way is there to at least somewhat overcome our human restrictions which prevent true equality?
|
1. It limits discrimination lawsuits. This is just a simple fact it's the law you can't discriminate against people so you to succeed you want to create a culture that preemptively stops it from happening.
2. People have biases towards people like themselves and might choose an inferior candidate just because they like them
3. It's good pr. A company that only hires people of a certain race or background might get boycotted.
4. It makes the work place welcoming to qualified candidates of all backgrounds. For example would you really want to work at a company with only other men or at a company where everyone else celebrated different holidays than you.
These aren't responses to your numbers just my own points.
|
e2mctn
|
CMV: Corporate Diversity Initiatives Generally Do More Harm Than Good
|
For this post, I will consider "corporate diversity initiatives" to be corporate policies intending to increase the number of "diverse" candidates that they hire or promote. This might include inviting diverse candidates to exclusive networking events, resume reviews, leadership workshops, etc., subjecting non-diverse candidates to greater scrutiny in the hiring/promotion process (or "double-checking" diverse candidates before ruling them out)\*, or evaluating recruiters on the basis of the diversity of the candidates they put forward. Simple statements about desiring diverse candidates or perspectives do not qualify under my definition.
\*Yes, I know of many anecdotal cases of both of these things happening.
Diverse candidates will be considered those whose major demographics (race, sex, sexual orientation, etc) differ from that of the "typical" worker in their industry. For instance, a female engineer, a male teacher, or a black doctor would all qualify under this definition.
As a female interested in computer science, I am one of the intended beneficiaries of these types of policies. However, I think they are harmful for a number of reasons:
1. They can make diverse workers susceptible to [Imposter Syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome) by introducing the possibility that these individuals were hired, at least in part, because of the diversity they bring to the work environment. Even if this individual would have been hired regardless of demographics, they have no way of knowing this for sure and are still susceptible to this phenomenon (which can have severe psychological impacts).
2. They can contribute to a hostile work environment for diverse workers. Non-diverse workers may assume that diverse workers are less qualified (regardless of if that is really true) because of the apparent advantage they get in the hiring and promotion processes. This can cause a breakdown of trust within teams, which ultimately harms their productivity.
3A) *In most cases*, I don't think that diverse teams are inherently more effective than homogeneous ones when diversity is based on demographic characteristics. Yes, I have read several studies suggesting that diverse talent yields better results, but I haven't found any reason why diverse teams (in terms of demographics) would actually cause better results; I suspect that there are some confounding variables at play.
3B) I can think of a handful of contexts where diverse workers would likely have a significant and positive impact on performance, yet these do not seem to be the contexts in which diversity efforts are focused. For instance, it's reasonable to suggest that male elementary school teachers could be more effective in engaging male students, who are considered at-risk in our education system and who experience lower engagement, higher dropout rates, lower grades and lower rates of college attendance as compared to females. However, to my knowledge, there aren't any concerted efforts to encourage more young men to pursue careers in elementary education.
4) If the incentives are strong enough, it can lead to less qualified candidates being hired over more qualified ones due to their unchangeable demographic characteristics, which is both unfair and harmful to workplace productivity. I am not saying that diverse candidates are always (or even on average) less qualified than non-diverse candidates. As an example, let's say a tech company receives 70% of applications from males and 30% from females. If they desire 50% female representation, they will need to hire a greater percentage of the female applicants. Therefore, even if the distribution of qualification of males and females was exactly equal, less qualified female candidates would need to be hired.
5) Diversity in *viewpoint* is extremely important to the quality of a team's output, but I think this is too often conflated with diversity of demographics. Just because there are statistical differences in the way certain groups think about particular issues does not mean that a demographically-diverse team is necessarily more ideologically diverse than a demographically-homogeneous one. It also does not mean that systems are in place to ensure that those with diverse viewpoints are comfortable voicing these opinions to the group, which is necessary for the benefits of diverse opinions to be realized.
So, Change My View!
​
Edit: Thanks for the responses so far. There have been lots of good things discussed, so keep 'em coming!
| 1,574,887,021
|
thinker111111
|
f8wgive
|
f8wf1os
| 2
| 1
|
CMV: I have never seen an argument AGAINST Net Neutrality, that shows knowledge or understanding of how the internet works. So give me one
Okay now that all the mainstream hype over this is over lets get real here.
Before I get started: **If you don't feel knowledgeable enough to make a case against Net Neutrality but want to see a debate, Please upvote so people who are knowledgeable can see this and make their case against it.**No offence but I thing we all deserve to here/see people who know what they are talking about (ie: network technicians, server/client programmers etc.) discussing this issue. Don't get me wrong I like seeing people taking interest in a field that I am in. but after a while the misinformation starts to pile on and it gets cringe worthy real quick.
For those of you who don't know how data works (regarding computers of course) Lets me briefly explain:All Data that is transferred over the internet in converted into Bytes(or 8 bits for the tech savvy). What is bytes? That's not important. What is important is that everything: Video, Text, Music, etc. EVERYTHING is converted into bytes. And here's the really important part. 1 Bytes takes up the same amount of space no matter what it represents. Thus: 1 Byte of Video takes up the same amount of space as 1 byte of text.
For all the people who did basic Computer Science/Information Technology Let that sink in real Good I cant make this stuff up there are literally people stating like its Fact: "Video Data takes up more bandwidth than text Data"
So if you have a data plan that allows to 1 byte per second. it would take you 1 second to download the video and 1 second to download the Text. Also that 1 byte would cost ISPs the same amount to transfer. Okay so now I know what you're thinking: what if people send more videos, 10 more videos to be exact(at the same time)? And to that I say: Well to send more videos(at the same time) you need more bandwidth, 10 bytes worth more worth of bandwidth to be exact.. Note: I didn't say you need 10 more bytes worth of "video" bandwidth!!! Because as you know... 1 byte per "whatever" takes up the same amount of space. So all you need is 10 more bytes worth of bandwidth.
But here's what ISP want to do:ISPs want to sell us.. Video bandwidth, Music Bandwidth, Email Bandwidth etc.. instead of just selling us bandwidth and letting us do what we want with our bandwidth. The only reason for trying to sell us different types of bandwidth is to trick us into paying them more. And the reason I said TRICK! is because bandwidth doesn't work that was. This is Fact!
A server doesn't see 1 byte of video and say: "oh boy this is gonna take up more space because videos are heavy, better get ready" Because a server doesn't even know a video is inside that byte, Because it doesn't need to know.
**TL:DR:** ISPs are trying to trick people who don't know how the internet works into paying them more, they are doing this by incorrectly describing how data in transferred over the internet. But people are too blinded by politics to see it.
\--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Learning is more important that anything to me. If you have any view that you think may be of value here please share. I am not beyond learning and I am really interested in other people's view on topics like this*
|
The technical part comes in a second, but first let me elaborate my position. I am pro net neutrality, but in my opinion a lot of people have a wrong understanding of it. A lot of people equate net neutrality to treating all the data the same. This is not a good choice, and here is why:
As written in the top post, you can see bandwidth as the amount of data than can be concurrently accessed. For ISPs this is one of their most important resources because roughly speaking more bandwidth means more possible costumers and less congestion. Hence, ISPs try to come up with clever routs and special customer offers to reduce the used bandwidth. Now the thing, a majority of customer exhibit a similar browsing behavior; In other words a lot of the time only a small part of the internet is accessed (e.g. YouTube, Reddit, PornHub and so on). Therefore, one of the most lucrative ways to reduce the required bandwidth on the complete system, is to put content distribution networks (CDN for short) of those websites inside the local routing network of the ISPs because this allows the ISP to route a majority of the traffic over a special infrastructure instead of the normal one. This approach inherently benefits the big companies because as a consequence traffic to those websites typically gets faster (Also obviously the number of spots for CDNs inside a ISP is limited and the companies typically pay for that, at least where I come from). Nevertheless that is not a bad thing because the benefits simply outweigh the disadvantages, it is a logically sound choice to do.
What is a bad thing in my opinion is to bill the customers dependent on the websites they visit, because of reasons that are already talked about enough. The reasoning why the ISPs want that is clear, they want to max the traffic on the special infrastructure because that is the most lucrative for them. As a last comment, obviously I simplified a lot, but my point should come across.
|
Whether or not it is relevant to the discussion, it is literally true that "video data takes up more bandwidth than text data," and my source _shows_ that it is true. If you did not think that this was somehow relevant, why did you mention it in your original post?
>If someone pays for 100mbps and they use all that bandwidth for video. it would take up the same amount of resources as if they used it for Text instead.
No, it doesn't, unless they are getting their videos and text from the same remote server (which is pretty much never the case). The internet is not just some magical machine that charges by the byte. Rather, it's a series of switches, routers, and servers that form a network, and transmitting information uses a very different set of resources depending on _where_ in the network that information is coming from and going to (not _just_ on the number of bytes). This means that if I spend my 100Mbps on loading a video from a youtube server in California, this uses a very different set of ISP resources from if I used the same bandwidth to download text fanfiction from the personal website of a Witcher enthusiast in Poland.
In other words, the same number of bytes transmitted _does not mean_ the same resources used, or even the same amount of resources used.
|
94q52y
|
CMV: I have never seen an argument AGAINST Net Neutrality, that shows knowledge or understanding of how the internet works. So give me one
|
Okay now that all the mainstream hype over this is over lets get real here.
Before I get started: **If you don't feel knowledgeable enough to make a case against Net Neutrality but want to see a debate, Please upvote so people who are knowledgeable can see this and make their case against it.**No offence but I thing we all deserve to here/see people who know what they are talking about (ie: network technicians, server/client programmers etc.) discussing this issue. Don't get me wrong I like seeing people taking interest in a field that I am in. but after a while the misinformation starts to pile on and it gets cringe worthy real quick.
For those of you who don't know how data works (regarding computers of course) Lets me briefly explain:All Data that is transferred over the internet in converted into Bytes(or 8 bits for the tech savvy). What is bytes? That's not important. What is important is that everything: Video, Text, Music, etc. EVERYTHING is converted into bytes. And here's the really important part. 1 Bytes takes up the same amount of space no matter what it represents. Thus: 1 Byte of Video takes up the same amount of space as 1 byte of text.
For all the people who did basic Computer Science/Information Technology Let that sink in real Good I cant make this stuff up there are literally people stating like its Fact: "Video Data takes up more bandwidth than text Data"
So if you have a data plan that allows to 1 byte per second. it would take you 1 second to download the video and 1 second to download the Text. Also that 1 byte would cost ISPs the same amount to transfer. Okay so now I know what you're thinking: what if people send more videos, 10 more videos to be exact(at the same time)? And to that I say: Well to send more videos(at the same time) you need more bandwidth, 10 bytes worth more worth of bandwidth to be exact.. Note: I didn't say you need 10 more bytes worth of "video" bandwidth!!! Because as you know... 1 byte per "whatever" takes up the same amount of space. So all you need is 10 more bytes worth of bandwidth.
But here's what ISP want to do:ISPs want to sell us.. Video bandwidth, Music Bandwidth, Email Bandwidth etc.. instead of just selling us bandwidth and letting us do what we want with our bandwidth. The only reason for trying to sell us different types of bandwidth is to trick us into paying them more. And the reason I said TRICK! is because bandwidth doesn't work that was. This is Fact!
A server doesn't see 1 byte of video and say: "oh boy this is gonna take up more space because videos are heavy, better get ready" Because a server doesn't even know a video is inside that byte, Because it doesn't need to know.
**TL:DR:** ISPs are trying to trick people who don't know how the internet works into paying them more, they are doing this by incorrectly describing how data in transferred over the internet. But people are too blinded by politics to see it.
\--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Learning is more important that anything to me. If you have any view that you think may be of value here please share. I am not beyond learning and I am really interested in other people's view on topics like this*
| 1,533,453,232
|
Jeremiahv8
|
e3n2b4b
|
e3myw7f
| 241
| 18
|
CMV: Corporate Diversity Initiatives Generally Do More Harm Than Good
For this post, I will consider "corporate diversity initiatives" to be corporate policies intending to increase the number of "diverse" candidates that they hire or promote. This might include inviting diverse candidates to exclusive networking events, resume reviews, leadership workshops, etc., subjecting non-diverse candidates to greater scrutiny in the hiring/promotion process (or "double-checking" diverse candidates before ruling them out)\*, or evaluating recruiters on the basis of the diversity of the candidates they put forward. Simple statements about desiring diverse candidates or perspectives do not qualify under my definition.
\*Yes, I know of many anecdotal cases of both of these things happening.
Diverse candidates will be considered those whose major demographics (race, sex, sexual orientation, etc) differ from that of the "typical" worker in their industry. For instance, a female engineer, a male teacher, or a black doctor would all qualify under this definition.
As a female interested in computer science, I am one of the intended beneficiaries of these types of policies. However, I think they are harmful for a number of reasons:
1. They can make diverse workers susceptible to [Imposter Syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome) by introducing the possibility that these individuals were hired, at least in part, because of the diversity they bring to the work environment. Even if this individual would have been hired regardless of demographics, they have no way of knowing this for sure and are still susceptible to this phenomenon (which can have severe psychological impacts).
2. They can contribute to a hostile work environment for diverse workers. Non-diverse workers may assume that diverse workers are less qualified (regardless of if that is really true) because of the apparent advantage they get in the hiring and promotion processes. This can cause a breakdown of trust within teams, which ultimately harms their productivity.
3A) *In most cases*, I don't think that diverse teams are inherently more effective than homogeneous ones when diversity is based on demographic characteristics. Yes, I have read several studies suggesting that diverse talent yields better results, but I haven't found any reason why diverse teams (in terms of demographics) would actually cause better results; I suspect that there are some confounding variables at play.
3B) I can think of a handful of contexts where diverse workers would likely have a significant and positive impact on performance, yet these do not seem to be the contexts in which diversity efforts are focused. For instance, it's reasonable to suggest that male elementary school teachers could be more effective in engaging male students, who are considered at-risk in our education system and who experience lower engagement, higher dropout rates, lower grades and lower rates of college attendance as compared to females. However, to my knowledge, there aren't any concerted efforts to encourage more young men to pursue careers in elementary education.
4) If the incentives are strong enough, it can lead to less qualified candidates being hired over more qualified ones due to their unchangeable demographic characteristics, which is both unfair and harmful to workplace productivity. I am not saying that diverse candidates are always (or even on average) less qualified than non-diverse candidates. As an example, let's say a tech company receives 70% of applications from males and 30% from females. If they desire 50% female representation, they will need to hire a greater percentage of the female applicants. Therefore, even if the distribution of qualification of males and females was exactly equal, less qualified female candidates would need to be hired.
5) Diversity in *viewpoint* is extremely important to the quality of a team's output, but I think this is too often conflated with diversity of demographics. Just because there are statistical differences in the way certain groups think about particular issues does not mean that a demographically-diverse team is necessarily more ideologically diverse than a demographically-homogeneous one. It also does not mean that systems are in place to ensure that those with diverse viewpoints are comfortable voicing these opinions to the group, which is necessary for the benefits of diverse opinions to be realized.
So, Change My View!
​
Edit: Thanks for the responses so far. There have been lots of good things discussed, so keep 'em coming!
|
I am going to deal with the Imposter Syndrome portion because that rings close to me. Imposter Syndrome has little to nothing to do with diversity programs. If anything, it shows why we need more.
There are several overlays if you are a person of color. The old saying is that "you have to work twice as hard for half as much". You spend your life being treated like you are less than and/or less qualified. This starts from childhood and goes on into life.
So you work hard, you get a good grade, you go to a good school, you get a good job, you look around and very few people look like you. You start to question why you were hired. You start to doubt yourself. While you may think "I am a diversity hire", that is one of many possible racing thoughts that make up Imposter Syndrome. However, that's a better argument for why we need more diversity.
As some who has done hiring at a major corporation, diversity programs do not try to fulfill quota where we need to hire X amount of black people. What it does is acknowledge that most recruitment systems are very broken. The way they traditionally funnel in candidates tends to ignore large groups of qualified candidates.
For example, in silicon valley, a lot of candidates are referrals from current employees or poached from other SV companies. This creates a loop that is hard to break into if you aren't already there if recruiters are looking there.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/26/upshot/dont-blame-recruiting-pipeline-for-lack-of-diversity-in-tech.html
Diversity programs attempt to fix their funnel so that they are also accepting candidates who aren't in their traditional system. They are otherwise very qualified and still get the same vetting process as the other candidates but they are now getting looked at.
Many companies also try to eliminate bias in the system. For example, using gender neutral write ups. That way, you don't know if you are reviewing a man or a woman when seeing their resume.
Now while many don't have quotas , they have goals. They may say that "we want to improve black hiring for 5% in 2020". That is more a benchmark to grow.
To try and tie this up, the problem is that the funnel is broken and biased. Many people assume that the system is fair and the reason women and people of color aren't being hired is because they are just not as qualified. The data shows that is not the case. The problem is that most recruitment funnels traditionally strongly favor white male candidates and companies are deciding to try to improve the funnel to give people of color, women, people of different national origin, etc. a fair chance.
|
I would like to ask what you think the solution is then to overcoming discrimination in the hiring process? I don’t believe that we can assume people will naturally start hiring more diverse individuals based solely on their qualifications because the fact that many are biased and don’t do this is the exact reason why diversity hiring has become a thing. Yes, we are seeing social progress, but often those in power will be the last to change things if there isn’t some incentive.
I think that overcompensating by purposefully hiring diversely will lead to an eventual balance, as it’s been shown that’s how progress happens. There is a give and take. It’s not a linear process. Eventually, we can dispose of the forced diversity hire system. I think it’s important to focus on the end goal and weighing the benefits of different solutions to the problem instead of simply picking apart the solution that’s currently being used without offering an alternative one, as I have said earlier I don’t think it will be solved on its own. And to specifically counter a few things you’ve said, I certainly don’t think that productivity is the focus or the end goal with diversity hiring. It is a tool for social change. This is obviously an extreme example, but slavery was a much more effective way for plantation owners to turn a profit, but as a society we’ve agreed that that’s super unethical. There was certainly a lag in productivity when this change was being instituted, leading to eventually a much better society for people to live in.
I think as well that it may be a little different in the computer science field because from my knowledge, it seems as though skill level is much more able to be determined objectively, so it is much more obvious when a qualified woman, for example, is being passed up for a less qualified man. You can look at portfolios and such in that case. These things can get tricky and harder to pinpoint in industries that have more subjective qualifications such as “hard working” or “personable” that are more difficult to measure except in a subjective interview setting. I know that all jobs want to see these traits, but a male receptionist for example doesn’t have concrete proof of skill in the way that a female computer scientist or engineer might.
Not to mention how institutional barriers such as differences in education and socioeconomic status can hold back people of color when the odds are already stacked against them in terms of personal biases. Going back to my point about balance, I think it is okay to give diverse people a leg up even if they are less qualified because that will open the door to more diverse people becoming qualified, as a higher rate of diverse hires creates an incentive for universities to accept more minorities. It is a cascading effect I think for positive change even if it isn’t strictly “fair.” There are insurmountable injustices in our system that make the system very unfair for minorities in the first place.
For example, my black male friend currently goes to university with me and is applying to medical school. He grew up in Dayton, OH a city with one of the highest murder rates I think in all the US, and he certainly acknowledges that as a black man, his chances are probably higher to get into medical school than they would be for a white man, but it was certainly much more difficult for him to even get to the point of applying than it was for more privileged people. He doesn’t feel like an imposter because he’s worked hard and overcame a lot to get where he is.
|
e2mctn
|
CMV: Corporate Diversity Initiatives Generally Do More Harm Than Good
|
For this post, I will consider "corporate diversity initiatives" to be corporate policies intending to increase the number of "diverse" candidates that they hire or promote. This might include inviting diverse candidates to exclusive networking events, resume reviews, leadership workshops, etc., subjecting non-diverse candidates to greater scrutiny in the hiring/promotion process (or "double-checking" diverse candidates before ruling them out)\*, or evaluating recruiters on the basis of the diversity of the candidates they put forward. Simple statements about desiring diverse candidates or perspectives do not qualify under my definition.
\*Yes, I know of many anecdotal cases of both of these things happening.
Diverse candidates will be considered those whose major demographics (race, sex, sexual orientation, etc) differ from that of the "typical" worker in their industry. For instance, a female engineer, a male teacher, or a black doctor would all qualify under this definition.
As a female interested in computer science, I am one of the intended beneficiaries of these types of policies. However, I think they are harmful for a number of reasons:
1. They can make diverse workers susceptible to [Imposter Syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome) by introducing the possibility that these individuals were hired, at least in part, because of the diversity they bring to the work environment. Even if this individual would have been hired regardless of demographics, they have no way of knowing this for sure and are still susceptible to this phenomenon (which can have severe psychological impacts).
2. They can contribute to a hostile work environment for diverse workers. Non-diverse workers may assume that diverse workers are less qualified (regardless of if that is really true) because of the apparent advantage they get in the hiring and promotion processes. This can cause a breakdown of trust within teams, which ultimately harms their productivity.
3A) *In most cases*, I don't think that diverse teams are inherently more effective than homogeneous ones when diversity is based on demographic characteristics. Yes, I have read several studies suggesting that diverse talent yields better results, but I haven't found any reason why diverse teams (in terms of demographics) would actually cause better results; I suspect that there are some confounding variables at play.
3B) I can think of a handful of contexts where diverse workers would likely have a significant and positive impact on performance, yet these do not seem to be the contexts in which diversity efforts are focused. For instance, it's reasonable to suggest that male elementary school teachers could be more effective in engaging male students, who are considered at-risk in our education system and who experience lower engagement, higher dropout rates, lower grades and lower rates of college attendance as compared to females. However, to my knowledge, there aren't any concerted efforts to encourage more young men to pursue careers in elementary education.
4) If the incentives are strong enough, it can lead to less qualified candidates being hired over more qualified ones due to their unchangeable demographic characteristics, which is both unfair and harmful to workplace productivity. I am not saying that diverse candidates are always (or even on average) less qualified than non-diverse candidates. As an example, let's say a tech company receives 70% of applications from males and 30% from females. If they desire 50% female representation, they will need to hire a greater percentage of the female applicants. Therefore, even if the distribution of qualification of males and females was exactly equal, less qualified female candidates would need to be hired.
5) Diversity in *viewpoint* is extremely important to the quality of a team's output, but I think this is too often conflated with diversity of demographics. Just because there are statistical differences in the way certain groups think about particular issues does not mean that a demographically-diverse team is necessarily more ideologically diverse than a demographically-homogeneous one. It also does not mean that systems are in place to ensure that those with diverse viewpoints are comfortable voicing these opinions to the group, which is necessary for the benefits of diverse opinions to be realized.
So, Change My View!
​
Edit: Thanks for the responses so far. There have been lots of good things discussed, so keep 'em coming!
| 1,574,887,021
|
thinker111111
|
f8wvdua
|
f8wig74
| 6
| 3
|
CMV: The Prophet Muhammad, claimed under Islam as the Most Moral of All Men, was a child rapist.
The hadiths make it clear that he took his wife Aisha for marriage when she was 6. Many Muhammad apologists try to say she was actually much older and the Hadiths in question can't be trusted since they aren't "the word of Allah".. even though many are first hand accounts of the girl herself. By following the logic that the hadiths can't be trusted then we would have little to no knowledge of Muhammad himself and also getting rid of the hadiths turns the Quran into mound of disconnected contextless writings. The Hadith's in question :
* Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151
* 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Sahih Muslim 8:3311
* A’ishah said : I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in." Sunan Abu Dawud 4913 (Ahmad Hasan Ref)
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls." (Sahih) Sunan an-Nasa'i 4:26:3380
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "I used to play with dolls when I was with the Messenger of Allah, and he used to bring my friends to me to play with me." (Sahih) Sunan Ibn Majah 3:9:198
* Aisha said she was nine years old when the act of consummation took place and she had her dolls with her. Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol. 2, p 77
Many defenders also like to point to the context at the time being normal for child brides to take place. Agreed! It was! However again he is a prophet and he is the most moral of all men, there is no way to in todays day and age give him a pass and say its ok to that he only be held to the standards of the society around him at the time, He was founding an entire religion, he was a "holy man" so he should be rightly held to a higher standard, to which he has failed.
​
\*EDIT\* Please see my reply to u/[Subtleiaint](https://www.reddit.com/user/Subtleiaint/) for extensive additional sources
\*EDIT2\* Alright been replying for the better part of 4 hours, plenty of good discussions. Also I want to make it clear that while pointing out that Muhammad may have engaged in some very problematic practices, I'm not attempting to make a blanket commentary on modern day Islam or modern day Muslims, so for those of you that are trying, please stop turning it into that. That said I will have to come back later to continue the discussions and replies.
|
So do you think its ok to pick and choose hadiths to accept? Or are you saying its better to discount them all entirely?
|
What are you quoting then?
I don't believe in either religions but you are making quite a big assertion and not offering any source.
|
mvqyoq
|
CMV: The Prophet Muhammad, claimed under Islam as the Most Moral of All Men, was a child rapist.
|
The hadiths make it clear that he took his wife Aisha for marriage when she was 6. Many Muhammad apologists try to say she was actually much older and the Hadiths in question can't be trusted since they aren't "the word of Allah".. even though many are first hand accounts of the girl herself. By following the logic that the hadiths can't be trusted then we would have little to no knowledge of Muhammad himself and also getting rid of the hadiths turns the Quran into mound of disconnected contextless writings. The Hadith's in question :
* Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151
* 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Sahih Muslim 8:3311
* A’ishah said : I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in." Sunan Abu Dawud 4913 (Ahmad Hasan Ref)
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls." (Sahih) Sunan an-Nasa'i 4:26:3380
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "I used to play with dolls when I was with the Messenger of Allah, and he used to bring my friends to me to play with me." (Sahih) Sunan Ibn Majah 3:9:198
* Aisha said she was nine years old when the act of consummation took place and she had her dolls with her. Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol. 2, p 77
Many defenders also like to point to the context at the time being normal for child brides to take place. Agreed! It was! However again he is a prophet and he is the most moral of all men, there is no way to in todays day and age give him a pass and say its ok to that he only be held to the standards of the society around him at the time, He was founding an entire religion, he was a "holy man" so he should be rightly held to a higher standard, to which he has failed.
​
\*EDIT\* Please see my reply to u/[Subtleiaint](https://www.reddit.com/user/Subtleiaint/) for extensive additional sources
\*EDIT2\* Alright been replying for the better part of 4 hours, plenty of good discussions. Also I want to make it clear that while pointing out that Muhammad may have engaged in some very problematic practices, I'm not attempting to make a blanket commentary on modern day Islam or modern day Muslims, so for those of you that are trying, please stop turning it into that. That said I will have to come back later to continue the discussions and replies.
| 1,619,043,608
|
Drewsef916
|
gve04v8
|
gvdyckg
| 14
| 10
|
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