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Alex Hillman ⧸ Indy Hall_transcript.txt

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+[0.00 --> 7.68]  This is Founders Talk, an interview podcast hosted by me, Adam Stachowiak.
+[7.80 --> 11.04]  We profile founders building businesses online as well as offline.
+[11.50 --> 17.14]  And if you found this show on iTunes, we're also on the web at 5by5.tv slash Founders Talk.
+[17.60 --> 20.18]  If you're on Twitter, follow Founders Talk and me, Adam Stack.
+[21.20 --> 24.44]  Today's guest is Alex Hillman, co-founder of Indy Hall.
+[25.06 --> 26.72]  Happy holidays to you and enjoy the show.
+[30.00 --> 37.64]  I'm here with Alex Hillman, co-founder of Indy Hall and co-conspirator and creator of many, many things, which we'll probably talk about here in this podcast.
+[38.00 --> 42.66]  But Alex, it's more than a pleasure to introduce you to everyone here listening to the podcast.
+[42.90 --> 43.58]  So please say hello.
+[44.10 --> 45.46]  Thanks so much for having me.
+[45.52 --> 45.98]  Hi, everybody.
+[46.46 --> 48.68]  I wish they could actually wave their hands back if it was live.
+[48.82 --> 49.50]  That would be kind of cool.
+[49.52 --> 50.18]  I just waved.
+[50.24 --> 51.50]  I waved at my computer screen.
+[51.64 --> 53.06]  And I waved at my computer screen.
+[54.12 --> 54.98]  I love it.
+[54.98 --> 63.66]  So, Alex, I guess the one thing you're most known for is being the co-founder and real big winning star behind co-working.
+[63.78 --> 68.00]  But you started Indy Hall back, I guess, what, about three or four years ago now?
+[68.52 --> 68.70]  Yeah.
+[68.90 --> 71.36]  I first found out about co-working.
+[71.36 --> 81.94]  I was doing some work with Chris Messina and Tara Hunt, who co-founded Citizen Space in San Francisco, which is sort of known to be one of the prototype spaces.
+[82.54 --> 87.80]  And I was doing some freelance work for their agency, Citizen Agency, and found out about co-working through them.
+[87.92 --> 93.68]  And then started down this long and windy path of what co-working could mean in Philadelphia.
+[93.68 --> 99.30]  And then four years – I guess that was the end of 2006 or so.
+[99.56 --> 103.72]  We opened our doors in 2007 and have been growing ever since.
+[104.32 --> 106.40]  And you have a co-founder with you at Indy Hall.
+[106.48 --> 107.26]  So what was that like?
+[107.80 --> 109.30]  Can you share the initial story?
+[109.46 --> 114.46]  I guess before we slam into that, let's maybe do a better introduction of who you are and kind of what you do.
+[114.52 --> 116.30]  I guess I'm just assuming everybody knows about you.
+[116.52 --> 116.88]  Sure.
+[117.02 --> 118.32]  Maybe let everybody know who you are and what you do.
+[118.74 --> 118.92]  Yeah.
+[118.98 --> 120.98]  So my background is in web development.
+[120.98 --> 130.52]  I definitely started my own path of independence, freelance web development, working with designers and small companies building out their websites.
+[132.38 --> 134.54]  Since then, moved on to found Indy Hall.
+[134.76 --> 145.66]  And since founding Indy Hall, I've made the transition into more business strategy, product development, and also this weird twist on team development that we can talk about a little bit if you want.
+[145.66 --> 153.40]  I've learned some interesting things about how people work together through the different styles of work that I've had an opportunity to experience.
+[154.06 --> 156.24]  But I do come from a tech background.
+[156.54 --> 160.70]  And so most of the projects I tend to work on are tech-oriented in one way or another.
+[160.86 --> 162.68]  Any fun stories about your initial start?
+[163.18 --> 163.34]  Yeah.
+[163.34 --> 171.42]  So when Indy Hall was just getting started, it was really me trying to figure out who else was here in the first place.
+[172.34 --> 178.42]  And that started out, I mean, you go to, I remember we talked earlier, you said you go to the Ruby meetup in Houston.
+[178.58 --> 178.74]  Yeah.
+[178.94 --> 186.86]  And I was looking for every meetup that I could find that was even moderately relevant to what I do and what I was interested in.
+[186.86 --> 191.86]  What I was really looking for was interesting people doing interesting things and figuring out where it was that I had to find them.
+[192.58 --> 195.14]  And so when we got started out, there was no Indy Hall space.
+[195.26 --> 200.94]  Indy Hall was an idea at best, but an idea that I thought that a lot of people would really dig on.
+[201.40 --> 207.12]  So it was really about finding people and figuring out where they were, what they were doing, and things like that.
+[207.30 --> 212.80]  And when it started out, I was going around, this sounds insane, but I swear I'm not lying.
+[212.80 --> 216.72]  I was going to three to four user groups a night, five or six nights a week.
+[216.88 --> 218.24]  So I was a total user group junkie.
+[219.50 --> 219.80]  It was insane.
+[220.50 --> 229.02]  And what was really cool was after a few weeks of doing that, maybe six weeks or so, he started seeing some of the same people at the same events.
+[229.08 --> 230.72]  And I call it the Marla Singer effect.
+[231.24 --> 236.16]  Remember in Fight Club when Jack started seeing Marla Singer at all the self-help groups and they have to split them up?
+[236.30 --> 236.48]  Yeah.
+[236.48 --> 238.06]  I ran into the same sort of experience.
+[238.06 --> 244.62]  And what's really cool is those people have been some of the people that to this day I work with the most, I enjoy working with the most.
+[244.84 --> 246.06]  They're super connectors.
+[246.30 --> 252.10]  Those people, they're out there actively seeking out cool things and seeking out opportunities to show off the cool things that they're working on.
+[253.04 --> 257.70]  And that was really the foundation of the network that eventually became Indy Hall.
+[257.70 --> 264.60]  Along the way, I was using one of the local user, not the Usenet group, what do we call it?
+[264.60 --> 265.30]  An email list.
+[265.48 --> 266.00]  One of those.
+[267.42 --> 271.50]  A local new media association was one of the places that I was sort of rabble-rousing.
+[272.00 --> 275.64]  And one of the regulars emailed me off list and his name was Jeff Damacy.
+[275.86 --> 280.00]  And Jeff basically emailed me and said, so who are you and what the hell are you trying to do?
+[280.00 --> 282.46]  I like your style.
+[283.18 --> 290.00]  And so I met Jeff and he had a design development studio in South Philly and he was teaching at University Arts.
+[290.10 --> 294.44]  And he had founded his local civic association and he came from an arts background.
+[294.60 --> 297.12]  So he'd been involved in the creation of Arts Collective.
+[297.28 --> 301.00]  So a lot of my ideas were comfortable and familiar to him.
+[301.00 --> 313.84]  And he was like, I think we can do what a lot of other people have done in arts collectives and business associations better by combining our interests and our experiences from sort of both of those worlds.
+[314.34 --> 323.34]  And that's really sort of the shortest version of a very long friendship, mentorship, and business relationship that I have with Jeff.
+[323.34 --> 334.82]  One of the most interesting things about our co-foundership, I suppose, is that when we opened Indie Hall, even when we got together to open Indie Hall, Jeff didn't need space.
+[334.92 --> 339.04]  He already had a company and a design studio and employees and things like that, but I did.
+[339.18 --> 350.18]  And it's been really cool to have a co-founder who, when there's some elements to the business that I see things because I'm in the space as often as I am, and he doesn't see those things.
+[350.18 --> 358.80]  And it allows us to evaluate some of the tougher problems that we run into, which tend to be some of the sort of societal issues of running a co-working space.
+[359.34 --> 367.40]  He doesn't get quite so wrapped up in the personal relationships that I necessarily have with a lot of the members because he doesn't get to see them every day.
+[367.48 --> 372.98]  And that's actually been really valuable in approaching growth from a really organic standpoint.
+[373.86 --> 375.98]  So you met up with Jeff back in 2006.
+[376.22 --> 377.44]  That's when you kind of connected with him.
+[377.44 --> 380.60]  It was like right before South by Southwest 2007.
+[381.20 --> 381.24]  Okay.
+[382.26 --> 386.24]  And what was it – I guess what was the first things that really kicked off Indie Hall?
+[386.30 --> 393.64]  I know you kind of were in this nine-month sprint where you were kind of gathering resources and collecting people and essentially creating a community before you'd even established it.
+[393.68 --> 395.00]  Why did you go that approach?
+[395.76 --> 398.68]  Well, I mean, to be completely honest, I didn't really have a choice.
+[398.90 --> 400.56]  I was 23 years old.
+[400.56 --> 414.28]  I had whatever cash I had in the bank, no sane landlord would sign a lease to me for a business model that doesn't make any sense to a traditional business person, at least at the time.
+[415.62 --> 420.76]  And so I was like, well, if I don't have a space, I should go after the other thing that I need, which is the people.
+[420.76 --> 425.22]  And what we learned is how powerful having the people beforehand really is.
+[425.22 --> 436.24]  The little things that come out of it and the fact that if you focus on finding members for developing coworking first, you're always going to be focused on the members.
+[436.40 --> 441.02]  And instead of trying to fill a space with amenities, you're trying to fill a space with people.
+[441.12 --> 447.62]  And I think it fundamentally changes your approach to what you're trying to accomplish, which for us was always about the people.
+[447.62 --> 454.48]  Let's talk about the business model real quick of a, I guess, a place like this, a coworking space.
+[454.66 --> 459.56]  What is the business model for typical places and do they all kind of share the same idea or is it different?
+[459.92 --> 460.98]  It's super.
+[461.14 --> 462.92]  I mean, you can make it as complicated as you want.
+[463.06 --> 469.42]  We strive to keep things as super simple as possible from an administrative standpoint as well as from an explaining how it works standpoint.
+[469.64 --> 471.66]  So we've got – it's a membership organization.
+[471.66 --> 476.34]  The business is supported by membership rather than desk rentals.
+[476.34 --> 478.70]  And I think that's another sort of fundamental decision that we made.
+[479.62 --> 482.84]  And I can get to that as I work my way backwards through the membership.
+[483.04 --> 487.66]  So if you want a permanent full-time desk – and mind you, all of our memberships are month to month.
+[487.74 --> 491.82]  So you can come in one month and leave the next, and that's totally fine.
+[492.58 --> 495.10]  But we find that most people like it a lot and stay.
+[495.34 --> 497.56]  So you want a permanent desk.
+[497.64 --> 498.72]  You want to call at your home.
+[498.72 --> 502.92]  You want to be able to come and go as you please, leave a monitor, leave a computer, whatever it is that you want.
+[502.92 --> 515.30]  Our full-time membership is $275 a month, which in most major metros is about half or less than you would pay to get an office in an executive suite or something like that.
+[516.94 --> 521.42]  We have about 30 or so full-time members at present.
+[522.26 --> 524.38]  Then we have a light membership that's up to three days a week.
+[524.38 --> 527.96]  That's for the people that are going to come and go pretty regularly, but they don't need to leave stuff all the time.
+[528.36 --> 529.46]  And their schedule is kind of flexible.
+[529.80 --> 533.20]  And we say three days a week, but it's really more like 12 days a month.
+[533.30 --> 537.36]  And we don't really keep tabs on that anyway because there's not as much benefit to it.
+[537.90 --> 539.48]  And that's $175 a month.
+[539.76 --> 543.18]  But the real key, I think, to our success was the introduction of a basic membership.
+[543.30 --> 545.26]  And our basic membership is $25 a month.
+[545.86 --> 547.16]  It includes your first day free.
+[547.82 --> 549.80]  And then additional days are $15 a day.
+[549.80 --> 562.04]  That $25 a month rate is strategically similar to our $25 a day drop-in rate where you can come and work for a day without having any membership.
+[562.56 --> 568.48]  But the nice thing is if you come in and drop in for a day at $25 at the end of the day, we have the opportunity to say, did you have a good day?
+[568.62 --> 569.78]  Are you thinking about coming back?
+[570.02 --> 571.92]  You should consider joining at a basic membership.
+[572.36 --> 574.40]  You get plugged into all of our community resources.
+[574.92 --> 577.16]  You become a card-carrying member of Indy Hall.
+[577.34 --> 579.46]  And any other days you use this month are discounted.
+[579.96 --> 582.86]  And once people are in, you know, most people are in the first day.
+[583.24 --> 585.24]  By the second or third day, they're absolutely hooked.
+[585.58 --> 588.46]  And that conversion point for us has been absolutely huge.
+[589.02 --> 602.04]  And the other thing worth noting about our basic membership is over half of our 100 and some odd, maybe like 110, maybe 115 members on our monthly paying rotating roster, of them, about half of them are basic members.
+[602.36 --> 606.06]  And a vast majority of our basic members never use desks at all.
+[606.16 --> 607.00]  They come to events.
+[607.00 --> 612.96]  They come and support the other organizations that we get involved with.
+[612.96 --> 624.34]  Basically, membership to Indy Hall at this point, one of the really cool things to me as a founder is the fact that it's got value to simply being a member above and beyond using desks.
+[624.54 --> 626.08]  Yeah, it's like saying I'm a member of Indy Hall.
+[626.48 --> 627.36]  There's some cred to it.
+[627.38 --> 628.54]  There's some street cred to come with that.
+[628.54 --> 629.54]  Yeah, yeah.
+[629.78 --> 632.22]  And that's, I mean, that's really exciting to me.
+[632.42 --> 635.46]  You know, that's something that makes me feel really good about what we've created.
+[635.62 --> 643.16]  But the fact that people are finding that as an opportunity to, you know, they use that when they're going to get work or when they're meeting people.
+[643.16 --> 651.84]  And that credibility is very real and something that we work really hard to pay attention to and make sure that we understand what it means.
+[651.84 --> 662.02]  It almost seems like these co-working spaces are kind of, because you said they're a directory of some sort to a certain type of base or a certain type of people that are in a community in a certain city, of course.
+[662.16 --> 667.06]  But it almost seems like they're Chamber of Commerce 2.0, but meets business relationships.
+[667.22 --> 678.52]  It's almost like Chamber of Commerce and executive suites are trying to do something, but they're missing the most essential piece, which is the people and the relationships and the events and the community and stuff like that.
+[678.52 --> 680.06]  I think you nailed it.
+[680.18 --> 682.46]  I mean, business services are nothing new.
+[682.66 --> 686.00]  Providing desks and chairs in a room is an old business model.
+[686.96 --> 695.42]  And it's been proven to be one that's not ridiculously sustainable unless you're pumping a lot of resources into it.
+[695.50 --> 702.18]  And what was important to us was to build something that could sustain and grow above and beyond Jeff and I being the people at the helm every day.
+[702.18 --> 713.46]  And we built it in such a way that our members have taken an immense amount of ownership over the physical space that we occupy, the name and the brand that they represent, quite frankly.
+[713.72 --> 716.66]  I think they represent us far more than we represent them.
+[717.66 --> 730.24]  And that sense of ownership is something that you don't find when someone's just going in and you use a desk for a day or when somebody is paying membership to a Chamber of Commerce simply for insurance benefits or whatever.
+[730.24 --> 732.34]  I'll be completely honest.
+[732.44 --> 738.68]  We've been approached a number of times as Indy Hall's business owners to join the Chamber of Commerce.
+[738.78 --> 742.24]  And every single time the person's emailed me, I've asked them, what do I get?
+[743.28 --> 744.08]  What are my benefits?
+[744.76 --> 747.72]  And they haven't been able to articulate what the benefit to being a member.
+[747.78 --> 749.48]  They tell me that the features are.
+[750.24 --> 752.04]  You know, you get this insurance discount.
+[752.22 --> 753.42]  No, what are the benefits?
+[753.54 --> 754.80]  Why does this benefit me?
+[754.80 --> 767.34]  And I feel like where we strive is we've been able to articulate and figure out what benefits people are actually looking for, how it makes their lives better, how it makes them happier, how it makes them more money and those sorts of things.
+[768.66 --> 772.38]  Above the features, the desk, the chairs, the resources, so on and so forth.
+[772.42 --> 773.34]  Those are far less important.
+[773.70 --> 780.84]  You mentioned that some of the best conversions is your – was it light members or what was the –?
+[780.84 --> 784.66]  Oh, the people that drop in, most people that drop in become a basic member.
+[784.80 --> 785.30]  A basic member.
+[785.30 --> 789.34]  If they're in Philadelphia, like people that drop in because they're just in town, that's awesome.
+[789.42 --> 795.78]  And we get tons of awesome drop-ins, like just cool, interesting people that are coming through Philadelphia for a day for business or whatever.
+[796.86 --> 801.56]  You know, when the GitHub guys are in town, they almost always drop by Indy Hall.
+[801.56 --> 810.34]  And, you know, within the web world, when internet famous people are in town, there's a good chance they've heard of Indy Hall.
+[810.72 --> 815.24]  And it's kind of neat to be able to bump into someone cool and interesting just because they happen to be in town.
+[815.38 --> 816.06]  It's a destination.
+[816.88 --> 817.24]  Absolutely.
+[817.96 --> 820.82]  So what is it that makes them come back?
+[820.86 --> 827.22]  Can you give us some examples of the experiences that these people have that makes them want to come back and get hooked on what Indy Hall provides?
+[827.68 --> 829.38]  You know, I think there's a couple of things.
+[829.38 --> 837.66]  Number one, I think the most common thing we hear, and I ask someone how their first day was, and they go, I was ridiculously productive.
+[838.64 --> 845.60]  And I think that people are used to having to work through distractions and things like that.
+[846.00 --> 851.28]  And if you're coming from working at home, your distractions are things like, you know, I could do the laundry.
+[851.66 --> 853.46]  I could walk the dog.
+[853.74 --> 854.52]  I could do the dishes.
+[855.14 --> 856.52]  Anything to procrastinate work.
+[856.52 --> 867.90]  If you're working in an office, your distractions are, I think the biggest one is office politics and meetings are probably the two biggest distractions.
+[868.74 --> 870.90]  And at a place like Indy Hall, we have distractions.
+[871.40 --> 873.54]  It's a noisy kind of rambunctious workplace.
+[874.12 --> 877.02]  But I feel like the distractions that you experience at Indy Hall, they're productive.
+[877.02 --> 883.94]  If you're being distracted, it's usually because two people are talking about something really interesting that you might stand to learn something from.
+[884.12 --> 890.86]  And so if you break away from your work, it's not to do something that's distracting from your work, but it's something that may contribute to your work later on.
+[891.56 --> 897.72]  The other thing is, is when you're in a room full of people that are hustling, you kind of feel really bad about yourself if you're not hustling.
+[897.72 --> 903.18]  So you get kind of, when the room is in sort of heads down mode, you just crank.
+[904.54 --> 916.40]  And it sounds kind of hokey, but like just being in a room full of positive energy of people that are just producing, people come in and they're like, holy crap, everyone here is working really hard.
+[916.54 --> 917.82]  It's time for me to work really hard too.
+[917.94 --> 918.98]  And they just do it.
+[919.16 --> 919.54]  It's amazing.
+[919.54 --> 923.10]  A couple of questions that came from Alan Branch on Twitter.
+[923.66 --> 932.70]  I'm actually specifically interested in these two points too, but questions he has are how do you start a coworking location and what kills a coworking location?
+[933.38 --> 934.42]  Those are good questions.
+[934.80 --> 938.54]  So I think, well, we talked about this a little bit.
+[938.60 --> 942.68]  I think the best way to start a coworking location is to start with the people.
+[943.30 --> 947.00]  Once you have the people, they will tell you what they want.
+[947.00 --> 952.44]  It's your job to figure out of what they want you should actually and can actually provide.
+[953.10 --> 959.54]  Once you've got people, all the hard questions get answered.
+[959.92 --> 960.74]  Where should it be?
+[960.90 --> 962.78]  Well, where do those people want to hang out?
+[963.46 --> 964.54]  What should it look like?
+[964.56 --> 965.64]  How should we furnish it?
+[966.00 --> 971.04]  You can include them in all of those decisions or better yet, like I said, you don't even need to make a decision.
+[971.16 --> 973.06]  A lot of times they can do it for you.
+[973.06 --> 985.82]  When it comes to the actual space, a couple of things that we've learned that are really important, it's really easy to rush into opening space, to leasing space, buying space, however you're going to approach it.
+[986.12 --> 988.52]  Because quite frankly, that's the sexiest part of it, right?
+[989.06 --> 993.92]  I am responsible for square footage in a part of a place.
+[993.92 --> 995.84]  That's kind of cool.
+[995.92 --> 996.50]  That's kind of unique.
+[996.60 --> 997.88]  Not a lot of people get to do that.
+[998.00 --> 1005.04]  And so people rush towards that because it's the most attainable thing that you know how to do.
+[1005.34 --> 1014.08]  But what happens when you go that route is you end up with a room full of, well, you and not other people.
+[1014.08 --> 1019.58]  And instead of spending all of your time gathering people together, you're just trying to get them in the door in the first place.
+[1019.68 --> 1025.74]  And it's distracting from what you should really be working on, which is getting people together, not just getting them in the room in the first place.
+[1026.18 --> 1031.98]  The other thing that we learned in terms of picking your location is you're going to find places that are great.
+[1032.94 --> 1035.52]  Try not to fall in love with a place just because it's awesome.
+[1036.34 --> 1040.64]  Awesome places, for one reason or another, also tend to have crappy landlords.
+[1040.64 --> 1052.34]  We've been really lucky both times in both of our locations to have just phenomenally understanding, compassionate, smart, progressive landlords.
+[1052.52 --> 1058.40]  Most landlords are going to look at this and go, if they don't get it, they think that you're up to something.
+[1058.98 --> 1064.96]  And they're just going to take advantage of you because this business model doesn't make sense to a traditional landlord.
+[1066.30 --> 1070.26]  In the situations where a landlord gets you, that landlord is going to go out of their way to help you.
+[1070.26 --> 1071.28]  They'll help you get good deals.
+[1071.38 --> 1073.24]  They will help you work with contractors.
+[1073.36 --> 1074.94]  They'll help you get resources.
+[1075.60 --> 1084.90]  I mean, our landlords tell their other property tenants how proud of the fact that they house Indy Hall they are.
+[1084.96 --> 1087.82]  And I think that's a testament to having a landlord that really appreciates what you do.
+[1087.82 --> 1097.22]  So I think that those are probably the first two steps is find a group of people that want it and then find a landlord that gets it.
+[1097.74 --> 1102.44]  And if you've got those two things, a lot of the hard stuff is just going to fall right into place.
+[1102.80 --> 1105.16]  You mentioned you're a co-conspirator and a creator.
+[1105.66 --> 1106.94]  And I live here in Houston.
+[1107.06 --> 1109.02]  We have this space called Caroline Collective.
+[1109.42 --> 1109.74]  Yeah.
+[1109.92 --> 1112.20]  And I called earlier to mention that you know some of the folks there.
+[1112.34 --> 1113.82]  Were you a part of getting that started?
+[1113.82 --> 1118.20]  In a very strange but fascinating way.
+[1118.60 --> 1124.12]  So that South by Southwest that I mentioned, I met Jeff right before it.
+[1124.28 --> 1137.88]  And actually that was one of the first times I was immersing myself in sort of this larger world that is interactive and digital and web and making and web apps and business and all the stuff that we kind of love.
+[1137.88 --> 1146.00]  So when I came back from South by Southwest, I had seen lots of cohesiveness.
+[1146.58 --> 1148.50]  Basically, there was a lot of cities being represented.
+[1148.66 --> 1149.34]  I could talk to somebody.
+[1149.44 --> 1150.80]  I could figure out where they were from.
+[1151.50 --> 1152.78]  And there was patterns.
+[1152.92 --> 1155.98]  There was obviously New York and San Francisco, but Boston was getting kind of hot.
+[1156.12 --> 1157.42]  D.C. was getting kind of hot.
+[1157.42 --> 1164.64]  And I left South by Southwest going, why doesn't Philly have a voice at a place like South by Southwest?
+[1164.90 --> 1171.88]  And my goal before I left South by Southwest was to come back the following year with Philadelphia as a posse.
+[1171.96 --> 1173.84]  I wanted to come back as a unified group.
+[1174.58 --> 1186.04]  And I was telling this story to a guy over a cigarette at a party at that South by Southwest about how I wanted nothing more than to put Philadelphia on the map.
+[1186.04 --> 1187.28]  I wanted to come back next year.
+[1187.80 --> 1190.84]  And I just wanted everybody to know that cool shit happened in Philly, too.
+[1191.88 --> 1195.70]  And this guy was like, that's really awesome.
+[1195.90 --> 1196.72]  Good luck to you.
+[1197.42 --> 1201.56]  And then 12 months later, South by Southwest 2008, we had opened Indy Hall.
+[1201.86 --> 1204.26]  And things were humming along.
+[1205.14 --> 1207.94]  And I'm at yet another party.
+[1208.10 --> 1210.58]  I think it was like the closing Media Temple party or something like that.
+[1210.70 --> 1212.60]  And I bump into the same guy.
+[1212.64 --> 1214.66]  And his name is Matthew Wettergreen.
+[1214.66 --> 1217.84]  And Matthew and I hadn't spoken in those 12 months.
+[1219.02 --> 1221.44]  And so we're standing at the side of this party.
+[1221.58 --> 1223.88]  And he goes, I've been meaning to thank you.
+[1224.70 --> 1225.86]  I said, for what?
+[1227.16 --> 1230.78]  And he goes, well, when we talked last year, you really got me thinking.
+[1230.94 --> 1237.04]  And when I got back to Houston, I decided that once I finished up my degree, that's what I was going to do.
+[1237.04 --> 1241.96]  And I'm still staring blankly at this guy, trying to figure out what on earth I could have possibly said to him.
+[1242.46 --> 1251.12]  But he basically said that watching you crave unity for your region made him realize that he wanted that, too.
+[1251.28 --> 1255.76]  And he went on to meet his partner, Ned, and found Caroline Collective.
+[1255.76 --> 1258.30]  And it was that March that he said, we're opening in June.
+[1258.38 --> 1261.12]  I would love it if you would come to the opening.
+[1261.80 --> 1268.20]  And it was that moment that I didn't realize that I was inspiring somebody else because I was too busy trying to inspire myself.
+[1268.20 --> 1289.18]  But to walk into Caroline Collective that first time and meet all of these people who had been working so hard with Matthew on getting things going and to have this just fantastic space and community of people that already knew who I was and already knew what influence I had over this place existing in the first place and how thankful they were.
+[1289.18 --> 1306.96]  So that may have been a turning point for me realizing that what I was doing with Indy Hall wasn't just about Indy Hall, but there was bigger opportunities here to help other people do things the way that we think is actually creating the most long-term value.
+[1307.32 --> 1317.32]  I think it's kind of funny, too, that you mention it like that because two podcasts ago, I talked to Amy Hoy, and we'll get to some of the things you've done with her in just a second.
+[1317.32 --> 1324.50]  But one of the things that I kind of uncovered in that podcast with her was this idea of achieving happiness.
+[1324.82 --> 1331.52]  And Tony Hsieh's book of delivering happiness, I listened to that afterwards after talking to Ryan Carson as well a few episodes back as well.
+[1331.64 --> 1339.86]  But I think people tend to chase money sometimes, and it seems like that moment there for you is probably more triumphant than any big payday that you've ever had.
+[1340.54 --> 1342.32]  Money just doesn't create real happiness.
+[1342.32 --> 1348.02]  I think moments like that when you influence and change people's lives, that's a fun thing to do.
+[1348.44 --> 1350.90]  If I was – I sort of came to terms with this.
+[1351.04 --> 1367.84]  Actually, over the last few weeks, finally being able to break away some work and spend some time in my own head, I realized that if I was to determine – if I was to think about what the most important superpower I could possibly have what would be,
+[1367.84 --> 1375.26]  it's the power to move people, like the power to get people that are going in a particular direction to think about the direction they're going and change their direction.
+[1375.40 --> 1378.70]  I think that – call it influence or whatever.
+[1379.06 --> 1392.68]  But the power to move people is – and see them achieve the success that they were craving by having helped orient them, there's not much more gratifying than that.
+[1392.76 --> 1394.38]  It's really – it's amazing.
+[1394.38 --> 1396.22]  Let's talk about hustling for a little bit.
+[1396.50 --> 1396.80]  Sure.
+[1396.98 --> 1399.82]  You did this thing with Amy Hoy called The Year of Hustle.
+[1400.26 --> 1400.86]  Zero to launch.
+[1400.96 --> 1401.58]  It was a course.
+[1402.16 --> 1402.24]  Yeah.
+[1402.32 --> 1406.22]  And earlier you mentioned you kind of dive into business strategy, product development, and team development.
+[1407.60 --> 1416.64]  Let's talk about, I guess, that experience there with Amy and where that went with The Year of Hustle and why you guys even started that and what you're doing around that space now.
+[1417.14 --> 1417.58]  Sure, sure.
+[1417.58 --> 1424.18]  So, I mean, I think we started it because we had not worked together on anything yet.
+[1424.30 --> 1425.74]  That was probably one of the biggest motivators.
+[1426.74 --> 1429.46]  Amy and I had helped each other on things.
+[1430.42 --> 1443.76]  She – you know, when I created Unstick Me, that sort of one-hour micro-consulting service that I do, that idea sort of came in a weird, dark time where I was trying to –
+[1443.76 --> 1447.50]  like I was trying to like take the things that I was doing and package them up in a way that made any sense.
+[1447.60 --> 1450.98]  And that was like this weird flash of an idea.
+[1451.16 --> 1453.14]  And I bounced it off Amy and she's like, I love it.
+[1453.16 --> 1453.72]  I want to help.
+[1453.92 --> 1454.64]  What can I do?
+[1455.48 --> 1456.58]  And I was like, I don't know.
+[1456.64 --> 1458.16]  And so she offered to design the websites.
+[1458.32 --> 1462.72]  The Unstick Me website was one of the first times that Amy and I actually did anything together.
+[1462.72 --> 1466.30]  But that was more her helping me out.
+[1466.62 --> 1479.06]  And I was visiting her in Thomas in Vienna a couple of winters ago and we decided to take a couple of days of the vacation and sort of whiteboard out what a curriculum would look like to help people build their first product-based business.
+[1480.26 --> 1487.54]  And it was basically how do you set up all the pins or how do you set up all the pins so they're going to be knocked down most cleanly?
+[1487.56 --> 1489.94]  And how do you launch so that your first user is your first customer?
+[1489.94 --> 1494.16]  And that was really the core thesis of Zero to Launch that on launch day you've got customers.
+[1496.14 --> 1502.02]  And so we sort of hacked out a curriculum and together built out a lot of the material.
+[1502.42 --> 1510.56]  And we recruited I think it was about 45 or 50 students the first time around from around the world, which blew me away.
+[1511.60 --> 1513.14]  Amy seemed less surprised.
+[1513.14 --> 1524.42]  Just I was completely shocked that 45 people from anywhere, most of whom I didn't know, were interested in learning how we thought was the best way to build a product-based business.
+[1525.06 --> 1526.28]  But it ended up being amazing.
+[1527.46 --> 1535.46]  You know, we were able to sort of talk through our own experiences and processes for getting ideas into real things.
+[1535.46 --> 1539.06]  And I think Amy mentioned this in the interview, like her and I have some pretty fundamental differences.
+[1539.96 --> 1541.34]  She's far more strategic.
+[1542.30 --> 1543.54]  I'm sorry, she's far more tactical.
+[1543.80 --> 1548.16]  Like she's going to come in with a plan moving from step A to step B to step C.
+[1548.66 --> 1550.68]  I'm more tight, iterative.
+[1550.86 --> 1552.98]  Like I've got an idea where I want to be.
+[1553.42 --> 1556.32]  I don't necessarily know exactly how I'm going to get there.
+[1556.32 --> 1567.40]  And so I figure out what the next step that's most likely to get me in that direction is and then learn as much as I can very quickly in order to determine if that was the right step and if I should make another one.
+[1567.48 --> 1571.34]  So that's one of the really interesting differences between my approach and Amy's approach.
+[1571.80 --> 1579.00]  But I think the difference allowed us to hit a sweet spot in the middle in terms of the lessons that we were able to teach.
+[1579.00 --> 1589.56]  And students really like to watch a student have an aha moment, to watch them beat their head against the wall and go, why won't my ideas ever make any money?
+[1589.68 --> 1594.38]  And then one day realize, oh, that's why none of my ideas never make any money.
+[1594.78 --> 1596.12]  Here's what I need to change.
+[1596.12 --> 1612.10]  Again, not only gratifying, but certainly validating and that we can keep honing our own processes for building and launching and know that we're going to, for as long as we keep trying that, we'll be successful.
+[1613.22 --> 1622.90]  The sad part of that story was I got sort of wrapped up in a couple of compressed timelines and I had to reduce my amount of time contributed to like the second half of the class.
+[1622.90 --> 1627.82]  And Amy really took the lead and then when it came to, she wanted to run it again, I said, you know what?
+[1628.62 --> 1631.38]  I think you need to run ahead with this.
+[1631.50 --> 1635.92]  I don't feel like I'm going to be able to keep myself wholly to it and I don't half-ass anything.
+[1636.08 --> 1636.88]  At least I try not to.
+[1638.40 --> 1640.76]  So I said, you know, I feel like you're going to go through this.
+[1640.82 --> 1646.44]  You're going to hone the curriculum that we built together and we can do another one in the spring and I'll be on board.
+[1646.44 --> 1655.44]  And so that's my hope is that, you know, I've been reading all the material that's been honed between zero to launch and the 30 by 500 course.
+[1655.62 --> 1658.90]  And she's really, I mean, talk about polish.
+[1659.24 --> 1660.14]  It was good.
+[1660.34 --> 1661.42]  Now it's amazing.
+[1661.86 --> 1668.86]  And I'm really looking forward to coming back and, again, bringing in that sort of diverse insight into how we teach to the students.
+[1668.92 --> 1669.92]  I think it's going to be a blast.
+[1669.92 --> 1677.06]  I think it's funny every time I look at Amy or Thomas' tweet stream, they're launching a new product or releasing something new.
+[1677.24 --> 1678.44]  It's always some sort of new announcement.
+[1678.52 --> 1681.26]  At least this past few weeks have been on like launch madness.
+[1681.80 --> 1682.42]  Yeah, it's been.
+[1682.80 --> 1687.52]  And I mean, they've been technically on vacation for the last few weeks.
+[1687.70 --> 1691.24]  So think about that's what they do when they're chilling out.
+[1692.18 --> 1699.80]  You know, they definitely, the two of them are just massive, massive producers of high, not just, they don't just produce a lot of stuff.
+[1699.80 --> 1701.42]  Everything they produce is high quality.
+[1701.56 --> 1702.76]  That's the thing that I think is remarkable.
+[1703.20 --> 1703.32]  Yeah.
+[1703.62 --> 1706.52]  I love this concept that you have of Unstick Me, though.
+[1706.60 --> 1707.98]  What made you come up with that?
+[1708.06 --> 1710.38]  What made you want to do this?
+[1710.98 --> 1718.70]  So I think I realized that I was getting good at, like people were coming to me asking for advice, or just around Indie Hall, because I was around people that were doing things.
+[1718.88 --> 1721.30]  And people are constantly bouncing ideas off of each other.
+[1721.40 --> 1725.48]  But because I was there the most, I kind of got the most practice at it.
+[1725.50 --> 1726.64]  So I got really good at it.
+[1726.64 --> 1735.62]  I got really good at sort of dissecting people's problems down to what the one thing that was in their way and helping them discover what the thing they needed to do to get out of their own way was.
+[1737.26 --> 1740.10]  And it got to, so two things happened sort of simultaneously.
+[1740.46 --> 1745.14]  One was people started realizing that I was really good at giving advice like that.
+[1745.14 --> 1751.86]  And so it almost got to the point where it was happening so much that I just, I needed some opportunity.
+[1751.96 --> 1752.84]  I needed a way to curb it.
+[1752.94 --> 1755.62]  And so putting a price tag on it seemed like a good idea.
+[1757.56 --> 1769.22]  The, I wrote an article, because we launched, it was $240 for a one-hour session where the goal was for you to have the next step to solving your problem.
+[1769.28 --> 1770.68]  I wasn't going to solve your entire problem.
+[1771.00 --> 1772.82]  You were just going to know what the next thing was.
+[1772.82 --> 1780.22]  I don't know if it was the economy crashing, me not marketing enough, not marketing enough to the right places.
+[1780.74 --> 1783.50]  But the $240 price point didn't seem to stick.
+[1784.56 --> 1785.88]  And so I dropped it.
+[1786.90 --> 1791.08]  And at the same time, I still haven't ever really marketed it.
+[1791.16 --> 1794.36]  There's some decent SEO that brings people to it.
+[1794.36 --> 1808.52]  More people find it through various blog posts that I've written about all kinds of things, anything from co-working to the Clue Train Manifesto to software bundle economics.
+[1808.78 --> 1811.32]  I write about any interesting idea that pops in my head.
+[1811.38 --> 1812.12]  I really like to write.
+[1812.54 --> 1814.42]  And so people find my blog posts.
+[1814.42 --> 1818.60]  Then they see Unstick Me and they go, oh, I do have that thing that's kind of been nagging me.
+[1818.64 --> 1820.74]  Let me see if this guy can help me out.
+[1820.96 --> 1824.50]  So that's where most of the customers have come from.
+[1824.58 --> 1827.16]  But I've never really marketed it.
+[1827.58 --> 1832.12]  I would like to, but I've gotten wrapped up in some bigger projects.
+[1832.12 --> 1839.04]  I think that Unstick Me was a nice thing to sort of pepper all of my other things that we're going on with.
+[1840.40 --> 1845.86]  But it hasn't ever really become – I don't think I've ever seen it as a main course.
+[1845.94 --> 1846.90]  It's always been a side dish.
+[1847.32 --> 1852.44]  I'm not sure that I have the same influence that you do or even the nag that you do with the practice of solving problems.
+[1852.62 --> 1855.40]  But sometimes I feel like I need an Unstick Me for myself.
+[1856.22 --> 1860.02]  Have you thought about turning this into something that other people can attach themselves to?
+[1860.02 --> 1863.80]  You know, a number of people have asked me about it.
+[1864.00 --> 1865.90]  And that's something that I would really like to do.
+[1865.98 --> 1867.88]  I said I wanted to do it in 2010.
+[1868.02 --> 1869.76]  Maybe I'll do that next year.
+[1869.82 --> 1874.48]  I think that the main challenge with that is going to be, you know, I want to vet people.
+[1874.70 --> 1880.44]  And I think the benefit in attaching people to it would be maybe some form of specialization.
+[1881.24 --> 1887.76]  Probably the biggest hurdle for me in watching Unstick Me was building confidence that I could actually help people with problems if I didn't know that person
+[1887.76 --> 1893.18]  or I didn't necessarily understand their – like the scope of where they were having their problem.
+[1895.48 --> 1906.38]  So the majority of the Unstick Me sessions that I've done have been an exercise in me abstracting problems away from the context that the problem is happening in.
+[1906.38 --> 1910.20]  And that's something that I think just takes a lot of practice.
+[1910.44 --> 1922.40]  So I think that having some sort of mechanism or opportunity to see people's opportunity or see people's ability to do that and then get them on board.
+[1922.50 --> 1924.60]  I know there's lots of other people out there that would be awesome at this.
+[1924.68 --> 1931.16]  It would be really cool to have sort of an umbrella system to get people calling into this sort of service.
+[1931.22 --> 1932.56]  I don't know exactly what it would look like though.
+[1932.56 --> 1942.08]  Yeah, I'm not really sure either, but I just know that sometimes I find myself giving away 30 minutes to an hour of my time at no cost.
+[1942.26 --> 1943.20]  I'll tell you what, man.
+[1944.66 --> 1945.54]  Steal the idea.
+[1946.48 --> 1948.58]  If I'm not going to do it, I don't want you to hold out.
+[1948.98 --> 1953.36]  No, I don't think that – I'm going to just say right now, I don't think that's my space.
+[1953.54 --> 1955.78]  But I'd entertain doing it here and there.
+[1956.46 --> 1961.02]  And it's not like I want to – no, I couldn't step in your shoes in that case.
+[1961.12 --> 1961.44]  I just couldn't do it.
+[1961.44 --> 1962.06]  It's fun.
+[1962.06 --> 1970.46]  I did it on Stickman a couple of months ago for a guy who's like a – he's a gray-haired executive – self-described gray-haired executive dude.
+[1970.52 --> 1971.66]  He's like, I've been in big business.
+[1971.78 --> 1976.76]  I've been the CEO of multiple companies whose three-letter names you know.
+[1978.30 --> 1982.30]  And he went off to create this consulting company in the early 2000s.
+[1982.30 --> 1992.82]  And he basically created a new niche in his business, this new measurement technique for customer interaction, I suppose.
+[1993.08 --> 1994.02]  It's the best way to describe it.
+[1994.02 --> 2006.12]  And long story short, as a pioneer of the space, he like eight years later was hitting the point where other businesses had basically taken his trademarked term for this measurement.
+[2006.64 --> 2009.02]  The measurement had sort of become Kleenex, right?
+[2009.18 --> 2010.60]  Like Kleenex is the brand.
+[2010.78 --> 2011.52]  Tissue is the thing.
+[2011.52 --> 2016.76]  So he had the brand and people were taking it as just – well, that's what this is just called.
+[2016.98 --> 2022.10]  And so for the first time in eight years, he was competing in his own space for the thing that he created.
+[2022.10 --> 2025.40]  But he was okay with that.
+[2025.46 --> 2032.80]  He was more interested in learning how to compete than trying to go after people on trademark.
+[2032.98 --> 2036.14]  He's like, I think it's really cool that people are adopting this technique.
+[2036.26 --> 2038.28]  I just need to stay one up ahead of the game.
+[2038.28 --> 2047.98]  And so I got to spend an hour on the phone with this guy's first pitch deck on his technique that he had been selling for almost a decade and rip his pitch deck apart.
+[2048.14 --> 2049.18]  And for me, that was fun.
+[2049.18 --> 2052.66]  And he was basically – he's like, I've always been the executive.
+[2052.80 --> 2054.48]  No one ever tells me I'm doing a crappy job.
+[2054.56 --> 2055.14]  This was awesome.
+[2055.56 --> 2060.20]  So I get to be completely candid and honest and tell people what I actually think they need to do.
+[2060.38 --> 2065.50]  And they're appreciative because we have nothing between us but $140 in an hour of each other's time.
+[2067.10 --> 2070.68]  What are some of the other common problems people have, just getting their own way or procrastination?
+[2071.28 --> 2074.18]  I think people get stuck on weird stuff.
+[2074.18 --> 2082.02]  A lot of people aren't comfortable prototyping something small and seeing how people actually interact with it.
+[2082.98 --> 2086.22]  You know, I'm a total minimum viable product addict.
+[2086.48 --> 2091.12]  I know that once I get something out, there's infinite amounts of time to improve it.
+[2091.44 --> 2094.20]  But there's not an infinite amount of time to get something out in the first place.
+[2094.26 --> 2098.36]  So I want to get something out there in some usable form as quickly as possible.
+[2098.36 --> 2105.60]  And getting people comfortable with that, getting people over their hangups is probably the most common thing.
+[2105.76 --> 2109.36]  So in those sorts of calls, I'm more of a therapist.
+[2109.90 --> 2114.80]  I'm more of an unlicensed therapist than really doing any form of business strategy.
+[2114.94 --> 2121.70]  It's helping people sort of relook at themselves and what they're trying to accomplish.
+[2122.36 --> 2122.88]  I'm going to be honest.
+[2122.96 --> 2125.80]  I almost called you on Stick Me actually last year.
+[2126.18 --> 2126.50]  Oh, yeah?
+[2126.50 --> 2126.94]  Yeah.
+[2127.40 --> 2131.26]  Every time I talk about it with somebody, I go, man, I really got to work on that some more.
+[2131.76 --> 2135.14]  So maybe while I'm on vacation, I'll jot down some notes.
+[2135.36 --> 2140.66]  And maybe you've inspired me to hit the ground running with Unstick Me next year.
+[2140.80 --> 2143.86]  I think it's cool, especially if you love picking apart problems.
+[2144.04 --> 2144.54]  I mean, you can...
+[2144.54 --> 2146.34]  I've learned so much.
+[2146.42 --> 2148.40]  I mean, I love that I've gotten to help people.
+[2148.50 --> 2151.10]  But every time I interact with somebody, I learn something.
+[2151.62 --> 2152.98]  And I'm a total addict.
+[2152.98 --> 2156.12]  I'm a college dropout, but I love learning.
+[2156.86 --> 2158.02]  And so not having...
+[2158.02 --> 2159.34]  I didn't have a classroom.
+[2159.54 --> 2171.84]  And so between Indie Hall and Unstick Me and business consulting, for everything I'm able to give somebody, I feel just as privileged to be able to learn from going through that process with them.
+[2171.84 --> 2173.24]  I wouldn't doubt also.
+[2173.38 --> 2175.72]  I'm not sure if you're much of a book writer.
+[2175.90 --> 2178.78]  I guess you write a blog, so it wouldn't be very hard to write a book.
+[2178.94 --> 2191.00]  But I can almost see a book coming out of this, too, where you can kind of at least censor some of the names or problems or whatever and expose some of these different things that you see as common traits and problems that people face that almost everybody gets hung up on.
+[2191.10 --> 2192.32]  That'd be kind of a cool thing, too.
+[2192.32 --> 2193.08]  I'll tell you what.
+[2193.12 --> 2195.94]  I'll do that book when I'm done with the co-working book.
+[2196.30 --> 2200.32]  I started a project earlier this year with...
+[2200.84 --> 2202.74]  Have you talked to David Hauser yet?
+[2203.10 --> 2206.42]  Not on this podcast, actually, on the Web 2.0 show, episode 61.
+[2206.70 --> 2207.10]  Oh, cool.
+[2207.48 --> 2210.62]  So I met David at LesConf at the first one.
+[2210.86 --> 2218.70]  And he was asking me about co-working because he was interested in sort of co-working relating to the empowerment of entrepreneurs, which is his whole thing.
+[2219.26 --> 2220.04]  And I totally dig it.
+[2220.10 --> 2221.40]  I think David's awesome.
+[2221.40 --> 2222.22]  I love David, yeah.
+[2222.22 --> 2226.44]  And so when we were talking, he goes, is any of this written down anywhere?
+[2226.82 --> 2232.42]  And I was like, well, on my blog and in the Indie Hall blog and in the Google group and the wiki.
+[2232.58 --> 2236.72]  And like, yeah, if you're willing to cobble together six or seven resources, everything I just told you is there.
+[2236.74 --> 2239.60]  And he goes, why don't you tell the story?
+[2240.34 --> 2242.20]  And I basically my response was, well, that's time.
+[2242.44 --> 2244.46]  And my time turns into money.
+[2244.56 --> 2246.94]  And I haven't been able to carve out the time to do it.
+[2246.96 --> 2248.64]  And he goes, what if I paid you to do it?
+[2249.06 --> 2250.88]  I said, well, let's talk about that.
+[2250.88 --> 2266.70]  And so earlier in the year, David basically had a grasshopper sponsor me getting started on a project to write the co-working book, which the rough draft of the first chapter is actually up at thecoworkingbook.com.
+[2266.70 --> 2273.70]  And I have about nine other chapters written and about 10 other chapters outlined.
+[2274.60 --> 2280.46]  And the approach to the book, I didn't want it to just be a book because co-working is still very much a living, breathing organism.
+[2280.46 --> 2283.00]  And the history is history is not yet written.
+[2283.08 --> 2285.72]  It's still being written every single day.
+[2286.26 --> 2302.80]  But what I wanted to do is create sort of a framework for how successful co-working communities and spaces are developed through the stories of how Indie Hall was formed and how other co-working spaces and communities were formed, but in sort of a linear storytelling format.
+[2302.80 --> 2315.28]  And so if you could take sort of a mix between a book that you could read end to end and sort of follow a journey, but it's really more of like a recipe book.
+[2315.38 --> 2320.38]  Like I can sort of jump in, read a chapter, get what I need, and then jump out.
+[2320.48 --> 2321.50]  It's written that way too.
+[2321.50 --> 2326.46]  Every chapter is sort of built as a framework for new stories to be added to.
+[2326.62 --> 2336.78]  So as co-working continues to evolve, as more people find successes and failures, the chapters are written in such a way that new stories can easily be placed into the chapters.
+[2337.74 --> 2340.32]  And the book can basically be a living, breathing document.
+[2340.44 --> 2344.50]  We can release almost annual revisions of it was really my ultimate goal.
+[2344.70 --> 2348.18]  But I have to release version one before I can have annual revisions.
+[2348.70 --> 2349.68]  What's the plan for the book?
+[2349.68 --> 2353.54]  Is it going to be a printed book or one of these e-books like a lot of people are doing?
+[2353.92 --> 2364.22]  So I launched it in this WordPress plugin theme-based thing that actually lets you comment on every paragraph.
+[2365.46 --> 2371.96]  So the idea was to launch my written version for free online.
+[2372.52 --> 2377.48]  Have people comment and contribute their own stories along, like basically in the gutter.
+[2377.48 --> 2380.50]  But everyone could read everyone else's stories.
+[2380.72 --> 2389.22]  And then me and a couple of other co-conspirators would curate those stories into a final version at the end of the year.
+[2389.58 --> 2393.56]  And they would do like a printed e-book or something along those lines.
+[2393.84 --> 2401.60]  If they got picked up by a publisher and they wanted to drive this thing home or help me drive this thing home, I would be way into it.
+[2401.60 --> 2403.68]  I'm not like dead set on it being an e-book.
+[2403.68 --> 2417.28]  But I do want it to be something that is living and breathing and free online, but that we annually or something like that sort of curate and distill new refreshed stories into it.
+[2417.78 --> 2419.12]  Design it up real nice.
+[2419.52 --> 2424.90]  Have artists come in and illustrate some chapters and things like that and make it something worth buying as well.
+[2424.90 --> 2426.90]  You mentioned David, right?
+[2427.00 --> 2427.50]  David Hauser.
+[2427.98 --> 2431.12]  And I think it's really funny that he inspired you to do that book.
+[2431.34 --> 2437.70]  And at the same time, the reason why we're on this show right now, this podcast, is because of a conversation I had with him on Skype one day.
+[2437.74 --> 2444.38]  We were actually entertaining different ideas about working together and podcasting with the Web 2.0 show that previous podcast I had done.
+[2444.80 --> 2445.00]  Yeah.
+[2445.00 --> 2454.94]  And it was actually in a Skype conversation, like chat back and forth, that he's like, it needs to be about stories and businesses and founders and stuff like that.
+[2454.96 --> 2456.86]  And I'm like, hmm, founders talk.
+[2457.94 --> 2458.64]  I love that.
+[2458.68 --> 2459.96]  And that was perfect.
+[2460.12 --> 2461.30]  And he absolutely loved it.
+[2462.00 --> 2468.60]  I'm not sure why we never ended up doing anything with it together, but ended up hooking up with Dan and here we are today.
+[2469.12 --> 2469.66]  That's awesome.
+[2469.66 --> 2470.22]  That's awesome.
+[2470.28 --> 2474.64]  But to give David some credit, though, is that he's an inspiring person.
+[2474.64 --> 2477.18]  I met him also at Les Conf.
+[2477.32 --> 2481.34]  And that was a huge turning point for me.
+[2481.44 --> 2489.64]  Like back in episode six with, I think it's episode six with Alan and Steven, I mentioned to them that Les Conf, one was, for me, was pivotal.
+[2490.48 --> 2491.64]  Huge pivot in my life.
+[2492.66 --> 2497.72]  And meeting David and working with David and Grasshopper on the Web 2.0 show was pivotal for me.
+[2498.28 --> 2499.96]  So it's kind of cool that he's influenced you as well.
+[2500.42 --> 2501.90]  Well, I completely agree.
+[2501.90 --> 2506.58]  And if he happens to be listening, David, thank you again for continually inspiring.
+[2507.40 --> 2512.14]  I think those little boutique conferences like Les Conf are amazing.
+[2512.56 --> 2519.64]  And Amy and I, after the Zero to Launch course, one of the big comments we got was, where do we get more?
+[2519.64 --> 2524.26]  And so Amy came up with this crazy idea that we should do a conference together.
+[2525.12 --> 2526.52]  And she wanted to do it in Vienna.
+[2526.90 --> 2528.86]  And clearly the name was going to be Schnitzel Conf.
+[2530.04 --> 2530.80]  And so Schnitzel Conf.
+[2530.80 --> 2532.22]  I'm glad you said it because I can't say that word.
+[2533.92 --> 2540.64]  So Schnitzel Conf basically became, in the same vein as Les Conf, it was a no BS.
+[2541.62 --> 2542.88]  This is real business.
+[2543.10 --> 2544.16]  This isn't about startups.
+[2544.32 --> 2545.64]  This is about selling things.
+[2546.50 --> 2547.66]  This is about making money.
+[2547.66 --> 2548.94]  This is about being successful.
+[2549.12 --> 2552.82]  And this is about how people have done it and how people are still doing it at different stages.
+[2552.98 --> 2560.46]  So we've got guys like Paul Campbell that built Ketchup, which is not a – he's not making any money from it.
+[2560.52 --> 2568.08]  But it's given him an opportunity to launch a consultancy where he's now making bank, building cool stuff for other people so that he can get back to his own ideas.
+[2568.08 --> 2575.18]  And then there's Gary Diamond with Sifter, who's the one-man show and only in the last year went full-time on his project.
+[2575.30 --> 2577.06]  And he can talk about those trials and tribulations.
+[2577.84 --> 2587.52]  And then the guys at GitHub who are darlings of their own space and have a very practical attitude about how they've built a team.
+[2587.52 --> 2598.52]  And then you've got guys that have been doing this for a while, like Toby at Shopify, talking about how you take a business that's already growing and how you analyze it to inject more growth into it.
+[2598.90 --> 2608.40]  And it was really – the day was chock full of practical business knowledge from real people that just work really hard to figure out what works.
+[2608.40 --> 2611.14]  And they were there to share it with our guests.
+[2612.34 --> 2620.80]  It was one of those days that you look back on and go, there's not a lot of days in a person's life or career that are like that.
+[2621.12 --> 2624.54]  And, again, to be a part of that was truly remarkable.
+[2624.94 --> 2630.68]  And now that Amy and Thomas are in Philadelphia, we've been talking about a reprise stateside here in Philadelphia.
+[2631.16 --> 2633.60]  And we would clearly call that cheesesteak conf.
+[2635.06 --> 2637.00]  But it would be – this is the same goal.
+[2637.00 --> 2647.62]  It would be under 100 people, amazing – we did it at the Natural History Museum in Vienna, which is – to conference organizers out there, stop going to convention centers.
+[2647.94 --> 2649.00]  Go to museums.
+[2649.80 --> 2651.70]  They love having smart people there.
+[2652.20 --> 2654.54]  And it's the coolest freaking venue in the world.
+[2654.66 --> 2657.88]  I guarantee you're going to get a better deal and your guests are going to be totally wowed.
+[2658.48 --> 2660.54]  That was a brilliant, brilliant move on Amy's part.
+[2661.06 --> 2666.26]  And icing on the cake, she calls me and she goes, so we figured out we're going to have the cocktail hour.
+[2667.00 --> 2667.68]  I said, where's that?
+[2667.72 --> 2670.10]  And she goes, in the dinosaur room.
+[2671.30 --> 2672.58]  And I'll tell you what, man.
+[2672.64 --> 2677.70]  I didn't know that partying in the dinosaur room in a museum was on my list of things to do.
+[2677.78 --> 2682.00]  But as soon as I knew it was an option, it was absolutely on my list of things to do.
+[2682.04 --> 2683.10]  And now I can say I've done it.
+[2683.10 --> 2688.26]  So you've also been touring a lot this past year, speaking at different events.
+[2688.32 --> 2690.24]  You were on the social media tour for a while.
+[2690.34 --> 2695.96]  You were kind of alluding to the fact you might even get a little fatigued from it.
+[2696.04 --> 2699.70]  What kind of experiences can you share about traveling and speaking quite a bit?
+[2699.70 --> 2700.18]  Oh, man.
+[2700.28 --> 2702.52]  So that was actually more like a couple of years ago.
+[2702.70 --> 2711.66]  What happened was I started – my practical business communications Bible is the Cluetran Manifesto,
+[2712.06 --> 2720.26]  which is crazy that a book that was written over 10 years ago is still more practical today than any business book that's come out in recent history.
+[2720.26 --> 2724.50]  And for those who haven't read it, I highly recommend you go read it.
+[2725.26 --> 2733.22]  It was basically written pre-dot-com bubble about how the internet is changing business communication
+[2733.22 --> 2736.80]  and how authenticity and transparency are going to be absolutely critical.
+[2737.02 --> 2743.32]  And this is before social media took hold and started pounding those words into meaningless piles of themselves.
+[2743.32 --> 2758.64]  But so that Cluetran notion of like the best way to be in business is to be yourself is really like my entire foundation of every business I've ever started or been a part of is it's way too much work to be anybody but yourself.
+[2758.92 --> 2760.48]  So I'm just going to be myself.
+[2760.98 --> 2763.06]  And if people don't like it, then I want to work with them.
+[2763.78 --> 2768.62]  And being myself has led me to work with people that I love working with, to work on things that I love working on.
+[2768.62 --> 2774.58]  And so that sort of made me really impassioned about the Cluetrain message.
+[2774.94 --> 2782.14]  The problem with the Cluetrain message that I sort of saw and wanted to combat in the co-working book is the Cluetrain was written 10 years ago.
+[2782.24 --> 2786.74]  So it's case studies or companies that are not relevant anymore.
+[2786.84 --> 2791.42]  And they're companies that certainly exist, but nobody building a business today relates to IBM.
+[2792.50 --> 2794.98]  They relate to Facebook, whether they should or they shouldn't.
+[2795.60 --> 2798.22]  They relate to Zappos, whether they should or they shouldn't.
+[2798.62 --> 2815.02]  And what I wanted to do was basically rewrite the Cluetrain chapter by chapter because it was built into – it was broken out by 99 theses – I'm sorry, 95 theses that basically outlined here is how the internet is changing business.
+[2815.20 --> 2825.52]  And so I took – my project was to take every one of those 95 theses and write a blog post about it and update it to sort of contemporary case studies in businesses.
+[2825.52 --> 2833.42]  And much like the co-working book, I got about a third of the way into it and life took hold and I ended up working on some other things.
+[2833.92 --> 2847.52]  But the cool thing about that is having written about that and having been very sort of open and clear about my objectives as a business person and how Indy Hall got caught on.
+[2847.52 --> 2848.26]  It caught on.
+[2848.26 --> 2853.46]  It got caught on not just locally, but we had international press within a few weeks of us opening.
+[2854.40 --> 2855.64]  And I never wrote a press release.
+[2855.90 --> 2861.16]  And businesses that are in the business of writing press releases see that and they're interested if they're not scared.
+[2861.16 --> 2871.46]  And so I found myself sort of unexpectedly initiated into the world of social media even though I have no marketing background.
+[2871.56 --> 2872.64]  I have no PR background.
+[2872.82 --> 2878.82]  And I've – the difference between most people in the social media space and myself is I've gotten really good at it.
+[2878.86 --> 2883.80]  But I came from the world of people that build those kinds of tools, not the people that try and figure out how to use them.
+[2883.80 --> 2889.22]  So I got to spend my time just figuring out what they actually meant, not how to use them in the first place.
+[2891.36 --> 2910.76]  And therefore was on – I was doing the social media conferences and I was still really just talking about how Indy Hall built – like helped build relationships between its members and how that's helped us grow and become well-known and become well-respected.
+[2910.76 --> 2928.56]  And sort of trying to correlate that to other people's businesses and suggesting that if you invest time in helping your customers get to know each other and learn from each other and you just act as a facilitator, not only are they more likely to be customers for life, but they're more likely to recruit on your behalf.
+[2928.56 --> 2933.86]  And therefore you're not spending money blasting your message to eyeballs and ears that don't care.
+[2934.30 --> 2942.70]  But instead you're channeling that same amount of energy into people that will actually make real movement happen in your business growth.
+[2943.22 --> 2945.42]  Well, I guess it's come near to the end.
+[2945.54 --> 2950.10]  We're at about 50 minutes now, which is probably not a bad place to be.
+[2950.10 --> 2954.60]  But I do have one last question for you, which is the super secret question.
+[2954.84 --> 2961.44]  So I want to know if you've got anything that's super secret that hasn't been blogged about on your blog, hasn't been tweeted about, nobody else knows about it.
+[2961.46 --> 2965.44]  Maybe you've shared the idea with a couple close confidants that you co-conspire with.
+[2966.08 --> 2966.14]  Sure.
+[2966.14 --> 2970.10]  But is there anything that's on your plate that's super secret that you can announce here today?
+[2970.10 --> 2973.84]  So I can't give all of the details.
+[2974.34 --> 2978.98]  And it's an idea that we've talked about a little bit, but what I can say is that it's moving forward.
+[2980.42 --> 2985.16]  Well, the chance of it moving forward increased dramatically in very recent history.
+[2985.44 --> 2989.48]  But Indie Hall, we've been around as an organization for four years.
+[2989.60 --> 2992.24]  We've been occupying space for three years.
+[2992.24 --> 2999.44]  We upgraded from 1,800 square feet that we opened in to almost 5,000 square feet a year and a half later.
+[2999.44 --> 3001.70]  And so growth is on our mind.
+[3001.84 --> 3014.68]  And growth isn't just in terms of how many members we have, but also how we take what we've learned from Indie Hall and extend it into the rest of our lives and the rest of our members' lives and the rest of other people's lives.
+[3014.82 --> 3021.44]  And so we have this idea that the next version of Indie Hall is not going to be one space.
+[3022.38 --> 3024.68]  It's probably not even just going to be one building.
+[3025.82 --> 3027.64]  But I want to buy a city block.
+[3027.64 --> 3056.70]  And I want to build like a piazza, like a European piazza where they have multiple buildings sort of with an open area between them, sort of a mix of public and private space, a mix of inside space, a mix of outside space, a mix of business use, a mix of commercial use, a mix of workspace, a mix of social play gathering space.
+[3056.70 --> 3070.76]  And really explore all the things that we've explored within Indie Hall in terms of building relationships through social interactions prior to the transactional focus of business that is typically focused on first.
+[3070.76 --> 3082.94]  And so what happens if we create an entire place where almost everything you need, almost like a self-sustaining community, gets to benefit from the same sorts of interactions?
+[3082.94 --> 3088.92]  So what that actually looks like, where it goes down, who's involved, I can't give all of those details.
+[3089.64 --> 3096.92]  But that's like, I'm really excited that this thing feels more real than I think I'm comfortable with.
+[3096.92 --> 3112.04]  But I hope that it happens because it's one more chance to set an example of how important some of these lessons we've learned at running a co-working space have been.
+[3112.70 --> 3114.62]  It's not about renting desks, that's for sure.
+[3114.62 --> 3122.86]  I have to say that that's actually some pretty good news to me because I've thought about something similar like that.
+[3122.96 --> 3125.26]  Obviously, I'm not a starter like you are in that space.
+[3125.38 --> 3135.08]  But I thought, wouldn't it be pretty cool to almost have like a city or a place people could live, they can work, they can kind of be in the same mindset, the same kind of genre of people.
+[3135.18 --> 3139.20]  Maybe not the same industries, but certainly the same kind of things you see happening at a co-working space.
+[3139.20 --> 3150.94]  And I thought, wouldn't it be nice if you could just kind of be there and self-sustaining, maybe even the fastest internet possible, all these different benefits that come to geeks like us that just get excited about this kind of stuff.
+[3151.08 --> 3155.80]  Yeah, I mean, we started out attracting just geeks, designer, developer folks.
+[3155.96 --> 3165.82]  But in the last year, we've grown to artists and scientists and academics and architects and people from more industries than I can rattle off the top of my head.
+[3165.82 --> 3171.30]  And so I feel like having this is going to give more people more reason to be together.
+[3172.62 --> 3180.06]  And the more times you get people from different industries with different ideas bumping into each other, the more interesting things happen, I think.
+[3180.16 --> 3184.18]  So that's really the end game for me is just making interesting things happen.
+[3184.62 --> 3187.18]  Where will any announcements be about this whenever they are announced?
+[3187.80 --> 3191.54]  If this happens – well, no, not if.
+[3191.62 --> 3193.86]  When this happens, I want to be a little more confident than that.
+[3193.86 --> 3201.62]  But my blog, DangerouslyAwesome.com, as well as the IndieHall blog, IndieHall.org.
+[3202.14 --> 3206.94]  And you can be sure I'll be tweeting about it the second I know anything I can talk about.
+[3207.22 --> 3211.74]  So if you're not following AlexKnowsHTML, go to Twitter.com right now and do that.
+[3212.66 --> 3215.06]  I can't imagine anybody listening to this and not following you.
+[3215.06 --> 3216.08]  How many followers do you have, by the way?
+[3216.08 --> 3218.12]  I have no idea.
+[3219.66 --> 3221.46]  Honestly, I haven't looked.
+[3221.86 --> 3228.06]  It's one of those things that I don't pay – honestly, I don't pay attention to it because it doesn't matter to me at all.
+[3229.74 --> 3234.54]  Twitter is one of those things that lets me stay in touch with lots of amazing people all over the world.
+[3234.76 --> 3238.28]  Whatever the count is, it doesn't matter as long as they're amazing.
+[3238.28 --> 3245.46]  I've also been on it since the end of 2006, so I got a good running start ahead of a lot of people.
+[3245.76 --> 3246.56]  So whatever.
+[3246.70 --> 3248.62]  It's like 5,500 people.
+[3248.86 --> 3249.40]  It's a bunch.
+[3249.88 --> 3251.02]  So that was before Twitter was cool.
+[3251.76 --> 3252.12]  Yeah.
+[3252.56 --> 3253.94]  No, it was always cool.
+[3255.16 --> 3256.38]  We thought it was awesome.
+[3257.18 --> 3257.54]  You're right.
+[3257.66 --> 3258.16]  It was cool.
+[3258.16 --> 3262.28]  I have to say that I actually didn't get on to –
+[3262.28 --> 3263.88]  It was before my mom knew what Twitter was.
+[3263.90 --> 3264.42]  That's for sure.
+[3264.54 --> 3264.72]  Yeah.
+[3264.92 --> 3266.68]  Yeah, that's kind of what I meant by cool.
+[3266.70 --> 3272.52]  I didn't actually get started on Twitter really deeply until I think early 08, maybe mid 07.
+[3273.20 --> 3274.82]  So I was a little late to the game, but still early.
+[3275.74 --> 3284.72]  It's interesting because having never lived in San Francisco, so many of my friends in San Francisco just assume that I have to have lived there at some point.
+[3284.72 --> 3299.60]  Because by watching San Franciscans' migration patterns and how much they announce about where they're going to hang out, what neighborhoods are hot, where offices are, I knew my way around San Francisco before I ever set foot in that city because of people talking about it on Twitter.
+[3300.38 --> 3300.82]  Pretty cool.
+[3301.14 --> 3301.50]  Pretty cool.
+[3302.64 --> 3305.06]  Anything else that you want to mention before we head off?
+[3305.52 --> 3305.96]  No, man.
+[3305.98 --> 3306.66]  This was really cool.
+[3306.82 --> 3309.38]  Thanks for taking the time, and have a great holiday.
+[3309.56 --> 3309.76]  Yeah.
+[3310.06 --> 3311.64]  Merry Christmas to everybody who's listened to this.
+[3311.64 --> 3317.76]  I think this will probably actually get pushed out after Christmas, but I hope you had a good one, good presents and all that good stuff.
+[3318.64 --> 3326.64]  And Alex, honestly, it was a pleasure talking to you, and I hope that people that have listened to this podcast got a lot from you because I know that I'm certainly inspired by you.
+[3327.16 --> 3327.36]  All right.
+[3327.46 --> 3328.00]  Thanks, man.
+[3328.02 --> 3328.70]  I appreciate it.
+[3328.78 --> 3330.42]  Have a great holiday.
+[3330.56 --> 3331.36]  Safe and happy new year.
+[3331.50 --> 3331.98]  Yeah, see you too.
+[3331.98 --> 3332.00]  Thank you.
+[3332.00 --> 3332.04]  Thank you.
+[3332.04 --> 3332.08]  Thank you.
+[3332.08 --> 3334.10]  Thank you.
+[3341.64 --> 3371.62]  Thank you.

Allan Branch and Steven Bristol ⧸ Less Everything_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,960 @@
+[0.00 --> 7.52]  This is Founders Talk, an interview podcast hosted by me, Adam Stachowiak.
+[7.78 --> 10.90]  We profile founders building businesses online as well as offline.
+[11.36 --> 16.20]  If you found the show on iTunes, we're also on the web at 5by5.tv slash Founders Talk.
+[16.44 --> 19.24]  If you're on Twitter, follow Founders Talk and me, Adam Stack.
+[19.50 --> 23.58]  Today's guests are Alan Branch and Stephen Bristol, founders of Less Everything.
+[24.12 --> 24.76]  Enjoy the show.
+[24.76 --> 30.36]  I'm here with Alan Branch and Stephen Bristol, founders of Less Everything.
+[30.58 --> 32.56]  Good friends of mine and I'm proud to have them on the show.
+[33.08 --> 34.30]  Less Everything is a products company.
+[34.42 --> 38.82]  They also do Rails consulting, interface design and conferences as well.
+[38.94 --> 41.54]  But let's start off with the proper introduction of each of you.
+[41.64 --> 44.28]  So I guess Alan, you can go first and Stephen, follow up after him.
+[44.96 --> 46.08]  Sure, sure.
+[46.24 --> 48.42]  So I am Alan and I do...
+[48.42 --> 50.72]  Why don't I introduce Alan and Alan can introduce...
+[50.72 --> 52.24]  Oh, excellent idea.
+[52.36 --> 52.68]  Do it.
+[52.68 --> 59.60]  All right, so I'd like to introduce my business partner and sometimes lover, Alan Branch.
+[62.50 --> 66.24]  And we actually, he's a designer.
+[67.38 --> 70.72]  That's his primary role in the company, designer and user end of things.
+[71.08 --> 74.46]  And he's a very gentle and tender lover.
+[74.98 --> 81.38]  I think a lot of that has to do because of the pain that Adam caused him when Adam raped him years ago.
+[81.38 --> 85.88]  Oh, but that's Alan.
+[86.00 --> 86.76]  Great guy.
+[87.20 --> 90.20]  One of the best designers in the industry by far.
+[90.36 --> 90.72]  I agree.
+[91.62 --> 92.34]  Okay, you ready?
+[92.44 --> 93.20]  I'm going to introduce Steve.
+[93.48 --> 94.04]  Do Steve.
+[95.00 --> 98.40]  Hailing from Los Angeles, California.
+[99.48 --> 100.34]  He's quick.
+[100.84 --> 101.80]  He's agile.
+[102.12 --> 105.60]  It's Stephen, the crusher, Bristol.
+[105.60 --> 106.60]  Woo-hoo!
+[109.38 --> 109.88]  How's that?
+[110.66 --> 111.84]  That's a phenomenal intro.
+[112.20 --> 112.72]  I love it.
+[113.02 --> 114.42]  And so Steve...
+[114.42 --> 115.22]  Oh, that's a shout.
+[115.42 --> 115.86]  Yeah, yeah.
+[116.06 --> 119.08]  So Steve, who is my other...
+[119.08 --> 120.84]  My better half besides my wife.
+[121.20 --> 122.04]  Actually, we're going to make that...
+[122.04 --> 123.30]  That would be thirds then, wouldn't it?
+[123.90 --> 124.50]  It would be thirds.
+[124.70 --> 125.96]  I'm not good with fractions.
+[126.36 --> 126.88]  I'm not good with fractions.
+[126.88 --> 129.86]  Well, I think we're both big enough where we can have three halves.
+[130.26 --> 130.54]  Okay.
+[131.02 --> 131.28]  Okay.
+[131.40 --> 131.76]  That...
+[131.76 --> 132.70]  I think that's only...
+[132.70 --> 133.72]  Is that metric system?
+[135.14 --> 137.62]  I think that's the old British standard system.
+[137.88 --> 138.16]  Okay.
+[138.20 --> 139.40]  The royal foot.
+[140.14 --> 140.50]  Okay.
+[140.80 --> 141.10]  Okay.
+[142.10 --> 146.18]  So Steve, and to be serious, Steve actually makes all the technical decisions.
+[146.92 --> 149.50]  Wherever the server goes down, I say, what's Steve?
+[150.08 --> 150.30]  Right.
+[150.72 --> 151.58]  That sort of thing.
+[151.58 --> 156.54]  So he is certainly my better half and makes all those decisions, and then we come together
+[156.54 --> 157.76]  to make all the other decisions.
+[158.24 --> 158.38]  Yep.
+[158.38 --> 163.90]  So let's kick it off with talking about the Primo product here, which is Less Everything.
+[164.14 --> 167.42]  Let's talk about the very first moments.
+[167.50 --> 168.66]  I know you guys have a unique story.
+[168.74 --> 170.88]  Let's talk about the very first moments of starting Less Everything.
+[171.72 --> 172.18]  All right.
+[172.26 --> 172.82]  I'll do it.
+[173.30 --> 174.02]  All right.
+[174.40 --> 178.30]  It was basically a posting on eHarmony.
+[178.54 --> 183.82]  I said, chubby designer, seek chubby nerd to make beautiful web apps with.
+[184.42 --> 184.56]  Right.
+[184.96 --> 185.22]  Right.
+[185.34 --> 186.46]  Steve responded.
+[186.46 --> 188.40]  Magic happened.
+[188.40 --> 189.66]  End of story.
+[189.94 --> 190.70]  End of story.
+[191.16 --> 191.60]  The end.
+[192.28 --> 192.58]  Done.
+[193.98 --> 195.22]  Interview over.
+[195.46 --> 195.94]  I got it.
+[195.98 --> 197.88]  Let's just give props to eHarmony.
+[198.10 --> 198.26]  Right.
+[198.36 --> 204.82]  The interesting thing that Alan omitted was that we both, that we had, he had the same
+[204.82 --> 210.42]  blog, the same posting on Match.com, which I also responded to.
+[210.42 --> 214.14]  Well, Craigslist was more of just a physical thing, that posting.
+[220.44 --> 222.78]  Let's bring out some of the real good nuggets here, though.
+[222.86 --> 224.48]  I mean, Alan, you were a freelancer.
+[224.78 --> 225.74]  Steve, you were on your own.
+[225.74 --> 225.76]  You're talking about nuggets.
+[225.86 --> 227.48]  You're talking about like, you know.
+[227.48 --> 228.10]  The good things.
+[228.68 --> 230.32]  I'll be serious for a second.
+[230.32 --> 235.94]  I basically was just fit on my monitor.
+[237.06 --> 242.10]  So I was basically working with contract developers.
+[243.14 --> 248.12]  And in all seriousness, Steve found my website and we started working together.
+[248.78 --> 254.08]  And he was the only one that ever turned working on time, looked after my best interest on hitting budgets.
+[254.08 --> 255.38]  I was doing things fixed bid.
+[255.44 --> 256.12]  He was hourly.
+[256.66 --> 262.12]  So realistically, if he was looking out for himself, he would be trying to build me more hours.
+[262.38 --> 266.22]  And he kept looking out for me saying, that's really not a part of the documentation he had written.
+[266.58 --> 268.04]  The client didn't necessarily pay for that.
+[268.08 --> 272.04]  You should push back on the client, which in turn made him less money, made me more money.
+[272.32 --> 273.28]  And that was unusual.
+[274.00 --> 276.52]  And I had good UI sense, a good business sense.
+[277.14 --> 280.22]  And I enjoyed working with him over all the other developers I had.
+[281.04 --> 282.60]  And so we kept working together.
+[282.60 --> 285.66]  And then he left his full-time job with the city of Jacksonville.
+[286.16 --> 290.04]  And I think there was a month or a week or two or whatever we decided we were not together.
+[290.20 --> 291.72]  And then we got married.
+[292.16 --> 292.72]  All right.
+[293.18 --> 294.62]  I just want to add to that.
+[295.02 --> 298.80]  The interesting thing about Alan was that – so this is 2006.
+[299.58 --> 301.62]  And I had just moved to Jacksonville.
+[301.98 --> 306.16]  And I was looking around to see who was doing Rails work in Jacksonville.
+[306.16 --> 307.20]  I was looking for a Ruby group.
+[307.28 --> 308.40]  I was looking for something like that.
+[308.92 --> 310.70]  And two hits came up.
+[310.70 --> 316.20]  One was for a meetup that someone was doing a Rails presentation, which was mediocre at best.
+[316.86 --> 321.38]  And one was for Alan, who was in Birmingham, Alabama.
+[322.16 --> 328.62]  And so when I sent Alan an email, the email was, hey, I searched for Jacksonville and you came up.
+[328.66 --> 329.46]  Are you in Jacksonville?
+[329.50 --> 331.26]  Your website makes it look like you're in Alabama.
+[331.26 --> 339.76]  And the reason he came up was because in 2006, Alan had already been SEOing for Jacksonville because his sister used to live here.
+[340.92 --> 341.04]  Nice.
+[341.06 --> 343.30]  At the time, she still did.
+[343.42 --> 344.96]  And I was like, no, no, she had already left.
+[345.10 --> 346.98]  It was still just residual.
+[347.74 --> 348.22]  Oh, really?
+[348.66 --> 348.94]  Yeah.
+[348.94 --> 359.40]  And so that was one of the interesting things is that Alan was way, way ahead of the curve with just doing little creative things.
+[359.54 --> 364.22]  Like he figured his sister was here, so might as well SEO for there to see what's going on in Jacksonville.
+[364.70 --> 371.10]  And if he hadn't have done that, we certainly – we may have met eventually, although –
+[371.10 --> 375.00]  I mean, the moral of the story is that SEO brings people together.
+[376.34 --> 376.70]  Absolutely.
+[377.12 --> 377.84]  I couldn't agree more.
+[378.40 --> 381.88]  So the company started in 2006, so we're 2010 now.
+[381.88 --> 384.46]  The company started in January 2007.
+[385.14 --> 386.34]  That's when Less Everything started.
+[386.34 --> 390.20]  Alan and I hooked up in 2006 doing this consulting work on this project.
+[391.12 --> 394.82]  January 2007, Less Everything was born.
+[394.82 --> 401.94]  I kind of started it on my own with just doing consulting work because I couldn't take it anymore.
+[402.32 --> 403.70]  For like a week or two.
+[403.84 --> 404.02]  Yeah.
+[404.12 --> 412.84]  Well, but let me also say that before I started Less Everything in November of 2006, we started working on Less Accounting together.
+[413.44 --> 413.98]  Without a business.
+[414.38 --> 415.04]  Before the company.
+[415.04 --> 415.26]  Right.
+[415.30 --> 415.92]  Before the company.
+[416.22 --> 416.98]  Without a business.
+[417.26 --> 419.48]  Without a contract.
+[419.48 --> 420.44]  No paperwork.
+[420.92 --> 421.06]  Yeah.
+[421.16 --> 421.38]  Nothing.
+[421.56 --> 423.72]  We just, hey, we like this idea.
+[423.72 --> 424.66]  Let's do it together.
+[424.82 --> 426.70]  We came up with the name Less Accounting.
+[426.84 --> 429.58]  From there, you know, I don't remember.
+[430.18 --> 432.14]  I guess I came up with the name Less Everything.
+[432.82 --> 435.70]  And Alan and I started doing consulting work on the side.
+[436.06 --> 437.10]  Well, rather full-time.
+[437.90 --> 439.84]  I started sending design work to Alan.
+[440.12 --> 442.72]  It seemed clear that this was how it was going to be.
+[442.86 --> 443.52]  And we said, well, maybe.
+[444.26 --> 447.44]  So you make it sound like there's a lot more time when you had Less Everything by yourself.
+[447.58 --> 448.38]  No, no, no.
+[448.44 --> 448.82]  Hear me out.
+[448.82 --> 450.20]  I don't remember ever getting a check from you.
+[450.44 --> 451.44]  I don't remember ever getting paid.
+[452.12 --> 452.52]  Right, right.
+[452.52 --> 452.84]  Exactly.
+[452.84 --> 456.40]  But initially, so this is all happening in January, right?
+[456.44 --> 457.76]  Early January 2007.
+[458.34 --> 464.02]  And we're talking about, you know, maybe in six months or a year, we'll merge our companies.
+[464.30 --> 465.42]  We'll do something, right?
+[465.42 --> 471.28]  And one of the funny things that happened was I had a buddy who was working for Microsoft.
+[472.12 --> 475.78]  And he was in charge of, like, hiring consultants to do contract work.
+[475.86 --> 486.00]  And so I thought I could get some Microsoft work and hire some people to do that while I did Rails work just to bring in money.
+[486.00 --> 488.18]  But I didn't have any design skills.
+[488.18 --> 495.10]  So I asked Alan as a favor to put together a little website so that Microsoft would think it's a legitimate company.
+[495.10 --> 497.82]  And so he did that.
+[497.82 --> 500.84]  And then he started, you know, bidding out on some other stuff.
+[500.84 --> 507.90]  And then very quickly, you know, by the end of January, early February, we had decided to get married and be business partners.
+[508.12 --> 516.66]  And then Alan did another extraordinary thing, which was we had a conversation about, you know, what work do we have outstanding from before we're merging?
+[517.02 --> 518.00]  What work's coming up?
+[518.34 --> 519.34]  And who gets money?
+[519.44 --> 520.80]  You know, how much money do we each have in the bank account?
+[520.86 --> 521.82]  How do we put that all together?
+[521.82 --> 526.90]  And Alan wrote me a check for something like $10,000.
+[527.40 --> 528.94]  And he said, okay, here's a check.
+[529.16 --> 532.24]  Go open the business, you know, or add this to the business accounts.
+[532.60 --> 539.10]  And, you know, and the reason he did that was because, you know, obviously he became a signer on the account.
+[539.20 --> 542.72]  So he then inherited all that money back and all of the money in.
+[543.30 --> 544.62]  Not for a while, though.
+[545.34 --> 545.74]  Right.
+[545.90 --> 549.22]  But that was just logistically because you weren't in Jacksonville to come and sign.
+[549.22 --> 559.36]  But the really amazing thing about Alan was he sent me that check in good faith because he didn't ever want me to feel suspicious or doubtful.
+[560.60 --> 568.96]  And so he said, rather than you send me money and he'll open the account, he'll send me money and I'll just put it in the account, the account I already had opened.
+[569.66 --> 578.50]  And so that level of trust and good faith really, you know, I mean, I already kind of had an idea of Alan's character.
+[578.50 --> 580.74]  We had never met by this point, by the way.
+[581.32 --> 590.60]  But that was one of the early things that really showed Alan's character to me and showed what kind of outstanding, you know, person he really is.
+[591.14 --> 597.62]  It's interesting to use the word married, you know, that you guys got married because, you know, partnerships are much like marriages.
+[597.94 --> 600.58]  What, let's be a little bit more real with this.
+[600.64 --> 601.70]  I mean, is it really like marriage?
+[601.70 --> 604.86]  What is it that, uh, yeah, I mean, yeah, absolutely.
+[605.08 --> 605.78]  Sex is terrible.
+[606.00 --> 606.10]  Yeah.
+[606.18 --> 606.62]  We fight.
+[606.86 --> 609.70]  Sex is sometimes, but the makeup sex is sometimes good.
+[609.86 --> 610.88]  So that's true.
+[611.24 --> 611.54]  Yeah.
+[612.50 --> 615.50]  You know, we've been married now for over, you know, three and a half going on four years.
+[615.84 --> 617.86]  And so, you know, a lot of the spark is gone.
+[618.30 --> 619.50]  Um, a lot of it.
+[619.66 --> 621.24]  Do you celebrate anniversaries and stuff?
+[621.80 --> 622.16]  No.
+[623.02 --> 624.62]  Send them flowers, get gifts.
+[625.10 --> 625.86]  Dude, we're guys.
+[627.32 --> 627.68]  Right.
+[627.68 --> 630.12]  We actually do give each other gifts.
+[630.60 --> 632.40]  We do, but, but not for like occasions.
+[632.60 --> 637.06]  They're just like, oh, hey, I saw this thing that you like, that you might like generally.
+[637.60 --> 640.02]  So what was it that you guys first hired employees?
+[640.10 --> 642.74]  Like it started out with you guys and it was, how long was it just you guys?
+[643.18 --> 646.94]  Oh, I mean, we're, you know, we're doing contract work primarily.
+[647.70 --> 650.46]  We're splitting contract work and working on less accounting.
+[650.58 --> 650.84]  Right.
+[651.20 --> 656.16]  So, you know, we always use the money from the contracting to pay for the development of less accounting.
+[656.16 --> 663.28]  And, um, so we, we had contractors working for us and, you know, um, from, from, you know, almost day one.
+[663.78 --> 672.24]  And in 2007, uh, in fact, um, I think we went through, I hired and, well, I fired over 20 contractors.
+[673.16 --> 681.10]  Um, and I think primarily that was my fault of, I think what it comes down to was that I was paying people too much.
+[681.10 --> 684.32]  And so no one could live up to my expectations for that level of salary.
+[685.06 --> 690.62]  Um, and there were a lot of good people that, that had I paid them less money would have been around a lot, lot longer.
+[691.10 --> 696.62]  So as a, I guess as a, as a company right now, what do you believe was some of the most important factors getting you guys started?
+[697.00 --> 705.40]  Um, and, and being important to where you are today, like what are some of the most important decisions you guys made early on that got you today to where you're at?
+[705.40 --> 715.30]  All right. So in all seriousness, you know, I mean, I think that, you know, one of the things that, that really made me comfortable with Alan and makes the relationship really, really work is that he gives really good head.
+[715.30 --> 734.60]  Adam's just sitting there pissed. Adam's like, I don't want to edit this thing that much.
+[735.46 --> 737.44]  I'm just going to have like five minutes of material.
+[738.86 --> 744.92]  I'm not going to edit it at all. I'm going to leave it in there. It's up to you guys, you know, leave it, leave it, leave it.
+[745.30 --> 750.68]  But on a serious note, I mean, there's lots of people who are listening to this podcast right now that, uh, admire you guys.
+[750.80 --> 752.16]  Look at, you know, they shouldn't have less.
+[752.36 --> 755.20]  They shouldn't. No, they shouldn't. No, definitely not. I mean, you guys are.
+[755.24 --> 760.94]  No, absolutely not. No, we're, we're, we're not special. We're, you know, we're, we're just like everybody else.
+[761.14 --> 768.68]  Well, what, what, what makes us special? I mean, yeah, we're creative and we're smart, but you know, I mean, Alan happens to be one of the best in design.
+[768.68 --> 775.28]  I happen to be, you know, top notch in rails. Um, and so, so sure that that's a little bit special, but what makes us special?
+[775.30 --> 787.58]  It's special as being together. And the, um, the, that when we're together, we're a million times better than we are when, when it's either one of us individually, uh, or with any other partner.
+[787.58 --> 794.74]  One of the things I recognized early on with Alan was that he was the best collaborator I had ever had by far.
+[794.74 --> 806.48]  Yeah. Well, let me, let me bring it down. So I don't understand it. Steve is peanut butter and I'm chocolate. Now they're both individually, very tasty, but when you can mix them together, it's absolutely delicious.
+[806.48 --> 809.10]  Does that make more sense?
+[809.56 --> 822.48]  Well, you know, I mean, I, I don't think that, you know, necessarily people should be admiring us. You know, I think people could, I think it's great if, if, if we inspire someone to, to risk and to do something great on their own.
+[822.48 --> 838.98]  I think that's fantastic. But, you know, admiration, I mean, you know, who cares, right? I mean, you know, ultimately we, we, you know, if somebody, um, reads our blog or, or talks to us at a conference or an event or whatever, you know, we really just want them to, to do something great.
+[838.98 --> 850.46]  Um, and so, you know, I hope we inspire people to, to risk because I think most people, certainly a lot of the people I've met have the potential to do something great.
+[850.98 --> 865.32]  Um, and, and, and they can do, you know, what, I mean, and let's face it, well, you know, we're not terribly successful. We're not, we're not, um, you know, rolling in the money. We're not, you know, I mean, sure. Jason Freed calls us for advice. Um, that happens, you know, regularly.
+[865.32 --> 868.32]  Seth Godin constantly plagiarizes our blog.
+[868.32 --> 883.18]  Yeah. Right. And, and, and, you know, sometimes he'll ask us to proofread his posts, you know, I mean, um, we actually, um, I probably shouldn't say this, but, um, you know, the first time Gary Vee heard the expression crush it, it was from Alan.
+[883.66 --> 898.30]  Right. I mean, Alan would just say it occasionally, um, because he used to crush beer cans between his boobs and he would take that, he would analogize that as to crushing it in the workplace. And then you're, you're, and, you know, Gary Vee ran with it, which is great. You know, we, we inspired him.
+[898.32 --> 913.64]  And that's, that's all we really hope, you know, at the end of the day, you know, if we can inspire somebody, we think that's fantastic. Um, but as far as being admired, I think that's, I mean, we'll, we'll, we'll let, I guess we'll let history, you know, be the determining factor for that.
+[913.64 --> 923.96]  So less everything is primarily our price company. Is that kind of how things got started? I think I wasn't sure that you actually started less accounting before less everything truly kicked off.
+[924.12 --> 939.28]  So yeah, Alan had a list of, of ideas. It was about 12 items long of ideas that could be a profitable website, web app. And we, we went over the list together and one of them was an expense tracker.
+[939.28 --> 951.08]  And I had had a similar idea for an expense tracker. So that seemed to be a good fit for something we had both been playing with mentally for, for at least a little while. And that expense tracker, um, became less accounting.
+[951.08 --> 960.98]  I guess as a company starting off with a product and doing consulting work, what, uh, what role did your clients play in it is helping you build this business? Was it, was it something that you truly love?
+[960.98 --> 975.26]  Oh, let me, let me check this one. Here's what the clients did. They were VC. They didn't know it. And we have just now, I feel like coming to like where we have a good understanding of what we're doing. Like, I feel like it's been a lot of good practice.
+[975.80 --> 985.34]  So, so let's just pause and recognize that Alan wanted to say the line that they were our VCs and they don't even know it. But where did you get that? Where did you hear that, Alan?
+[985.34 --> 990.00]  Um, I don't even remember.
+[990.26 --> 992.54]  Uh, that was my line, bitch.
+[992.72 --> 993.26]  Oh, really?
+[993.80 --> 994.60]  You don't remember that?
+[995.18 --> 996.96]  I came up with same difference.
+[997.66 --> 1001.20]  In 1988, I was saying same difference.
+[1002.94 --> 1004.10]  Right, right.
+[1004.70 --> 1005.52]  You guys are awesome.
+[1005.58 --> 1007.02]  Well, supposedly you are.
+[1007.96 --> 1009.26]  Supposedly? Did you say supposedly?
+[1012.20 --> 1014.26]  I think Adam is mentally exhausted.
+[1014.26 --> 1016.24]  No, no, no, no, no, no.
+[1016.26 --> 1017.24]  Not at all. Not at all.
+[1017.42 --> 1019.54]  I think it's important that you guys are yourself.
+[1019.72 --> 1022.22]  And I, why, who am I to try and put you guys in a box?
+[1022.96 --> 1023.88]  You know what I mean?
+[1023.94 --> 1025.02]  I hate, I hate boxes.
+[1025.16 --> 1025.98]  I don't like boxes either.
+[1026.06 --> 1028.02]  I don't like people who put me in boxes and...
+[1028.02 --> 1030.30]  I know, but you like it when I put my thing in your box.
+[1030.38 --> 1030.90]  Oh boy.
+[1030.98 --> 1033.86]  Let's go away from that subject and let's talk about something more important here.
+[1035.42 --> 1036.34]  Let's talk about family.
+[1037.26 --> 1039.64]  How important, how important is family to both you guys?
+[1039.64 --> 1044.28]  And how do you balance building this awesome company, doing the conferences, doing the web apps?
+[1044.32 --> 1047.50]  How do you balance all of that and spending quality time with your family?
+[1047.68 --> 1048.50]  There's no balance.
+[1048.64 --> 1049.42]  There's no balance.
+[1049.66 --> 1049.86]  Yeah.
+[1050.36 --> 1051.04]  There's no balance.
+[1051.40 --> 1052.90]  It's, it's, everything's in a panic.
+[1053.12 --> 1055.60]  Everything's, you know, is, is fire engine mode.
+[1055.86 --> 1060.32]  When, when, when the family has needs, you take care of the family's needs and then you go back to work.
+[1061.68 --> 1062.72]  There's no balance.
+[1063.16 --> 1064.68]  You know, I mean, you know.
+[1064.80 --> 1066.10]  Certainly strive for it.
+[1066.22 --> 1067.44]  Yeah, strive for it.
+[1067.44 --> 1067.72]  Right.
+[1067.80 --> 1071.86]  I mean, and, you know, in the, in this last year, you know, we're certainly taking weekends off,
+[1071.86 --> 1076.16]  which it was kind of new for us, you know, and it was, you know, we sometimes take evenings off like,
+[1076.24 --> 1077.42]  Hey, I'm going to go play with the kids.
+[1078.84 --> 1084.08]  But, you know, in the first year, you know, I mean, so in 2007, I worked 4,400 hours.
+[1084.56 --> 1084.88]  Wow.
+[1085.46 --> 1085.76]  Yeah.
+[1085.84 --> 1090.92]  Which is like, you know, more than two years worth of work for, you know, an 80 hour, a 40 hour work week.
+[1090.96 --> 1091.22]  Right.
+[1091.78 --> 1094.36]  And so, you know, I mean, there is a balance.
+[1094.36 --> 1097.46]  I mean, we're being, we're being flippant when we say there is no balance, right?
+[1097.52 --> 1099.44]  I mean, you know, our families are very important to us.
+[1100.52 --> 1106.64]  We, we, we work really hard on, on not neglecting them and, and, and taking care of them.
+[1106.78 --> 1109.78]  You know, I, I recently been divorced.
+[1109.78 --> 1115.76]  And so it's been hard because now when, you know, Alan, Alan kind of has it easy because he can always tell Anna,
+[1116.14 --> 1119.90]  Hey, take, take, you know, get, get the kids out of here so I can, I can keep working or I'm on the phone or something.
+[1119.90 --> 1124.46]  Whereas when, when I have my kids, I no longer have a wife to, to help out in that manner.
+[1124.46 --> 1131.10]  So, so for me, it's, it's definitely more when, when my kids, when I have my kids, which I have them about almost half of the time.
+[1132.00 --> 1140.58]  You know, I, I'm, I'm more, it's, it's, it's, I'm required more to stop work, to, to tend to the kids more often than, than Alan is at this point.
+[1142.20 --> 1143.84]  So, yeah, I mean, there, there is a balance.
+[1143.92 --> 1145.06]  How do you strike that balance?
+[1145.16 --> 1145.90]  I don't know.
+[1146.20 --> 1147.94]  You know, I don't know if there's an answer for that.
+[1147.94 --> 1154.36]  You know, you do what's important and, and hopefully, you know, your, your family is high on your list of important things.
+[1155.22 --> 1172.24]  You don't sleep and you, you work really hard and you work, you know, one of the nice things about Alan is as a designer, you know, he, he can, he can do, you know, what would literally take someone else, you know, three weeks to do, he can do in a week, you know, easily.
+[1172.58 --> 1172.92]  Right.
+[1172.92 --> 1176.84]  And then that's, you know, front, front to back, every bit of the design and UI process.
+[1176.84 --> 1183.40]  And so when you look at that kind of speed, right, you can get things done faster.
+[1183.54 --> 1184.52]  I mean, I, I don't want to.
+[1184.90 --> 1187.22]  I literally launched a site during this interview.
+[1188.04 --> 1188.38]  Mm-hmm.
+[1188.70 --> 1189.06]  Wow.
+[1189.10 --> 1189.72]  It's up there.
+[1190.60 --> 1193.40]  So as a company, you guys have been distributed most of the time, right?
+[1193.40 --> 1196.78]  Like you'd mentioned that you hadn't even met each other when you first got started.
+[1196.96 --> 1200.60]  So the whole entire time, less everything has been less everything.
+[1200.94 --> 1204.70]  You guys have been distributed, both contractors as well as now employees.
+[1204.70 --> 1207.84]  How, how do you keep synergy?
+[1208.08 --> 1209.18]  How do you keep collaboration?
+[1209.52 --> 1210.18]  What do you guys do?
+[1210.24 --> 1220.20]  What is your secret sauce in terms of collaborating and communicating and all these good things that truly make companies culture and vibe, you know, kind of personal interactions?
+[1220.64 --> 1221.74]  And you guys kind of do it digitally.
+[1221.74 --> 1230.44]  So, so the difference between sitting in the same room with someone and video chatting with someone is almost nothing, right?
+[1230.44 --> 1233.04]  Or at least sitting in separate offices, right?
+[1233.06 --> 1236.82]  Adjacent offices and video chatting with someone is almost nothing.
+[1237.02 --> 1240.50]  So, I think it's, I think it's sometimes better because.
+[1241.20 --> 1243.08]  Well, you can hang up the video chat and go back to work, right?
+[1243.32 --> 1244.00]  Right, exactly.
+[1244.26 --> 1247.04]  And defuse situations or get back to work.
+[1247.48 --> 1249.22]  So it's quicker to end conversations.
+[1249.44 --> 1253.66]  You know, if I'm going to come into your office and chat with you, I'm going to bring a cup of coffee and, you know.
+[1253.66 --> 1253.86]  Right.
+[1254.36 --> 1263.30]  Well, we, well, for example, you know, we have a guy in Europe named Eugene who's been with us since 2007, our longest employee.
+[1263.70 --> 1269.54]  And he, the first time I met him was last year in Scotland in February.
+[1270.30 --> 1276.46]  And, you know, when we met each other finally, I was surprised because he was a little bit taller than I thought he was going to be.
+[1276.98 --> 1277.96]  And that's it, right?
+[1278.04 --> 1279.74]  Besides that, it was just like, hey, how's it going?
+[1279.74 --> 1287.30]  You know, I mean, video chat really is a lot closer to being there than, you know, and it's far, far from being on the telephone with someone.
+[1287.78 --> 1296.28]  So the telephone is, you know, a pretty poor communications tool in regards to building rapport and building relationships.
+[1298.76 --> 1301.48]  So I think for us, video chat has been.
+[1302.20 --> 1307.06]  And like, so I went back and forth with someone about how they only hire locally.
+[1307.06 --> 1311.64]  And so when we're doing consulting work, this was a year or two ago, I guess.
+[1311.80 --> 1313.38]  And the person was like, well, I only hire local people.
+[1313.48 --> 1315.18]  Clients want to have local people.
+[1315.84 --> 1320.42]  I said, well, you know, what if I told your client, I said, hey, this guy we're competing with for this job.
+[1320.86 --> 1323.84]  You know, he pulls from a much smaller talent pool than what we do.
+[1325.38 --> 1329.44]  They would say, well, I want you to pull from the biggest talent pool possible.
+[1329.44 --> 1335.90]  And the really good developers and designers, why do they want to move to a location sitting in an office?
+[1336.36 --> 1337.98]  The vast majority do not want to.
+[1338.32 --> 1338.36]  No.
+[1339.16 --> 1343.70]  So you're going to pull from probably not the best people, and you're going to force them all to be in an office,
+[1343.78 --> 1345.00]  and they're all going to jerk and jack.
+[1345.16 --> 1349.94]  And, you know, there are 37 singles guys will go on and on about that and how offices are terrible or whatever.
+[1350.08 --> 1353.58]  But I think there's too many advantages to being virtual.
+[1353.58 --> 1358.20]  And when Steve and I get in the same room, we're either A, joking or B, fighting.
+[1359.22 --> 1359.32]  Right.
+[1360.38 --> 1365.94]  And, you know, the other reality along that line is that the best people don't have to move because there's plenty of opportunity for that.
+[1365.94 --> 1366.90]  That's what I thought you just said.
+[1367.58 --> 1375.48]  Well, you said the bigger the talent pool, but I'm saying, you know, my point is that people that are willing to move, right,
+[1375.86 --> 1379.40]  probably aren't as high a caliber as those that are unwilling to move.
+[1380.06 --> 1383.20]  Well, maybe it lends itself to people that are younger.
+[1383.58 --> 1385.56]  And have no children and no roots, right?
+[1385.70 --> 1388.46]  So maybe that's the difference.
+[1388.52 --> 1393.40]  Maybe it has more to do with how established that, how much of their roots down, or their willingness to move.
+[1394.00 --> 1394.64]  Maybe so.
+[1394.80 --> 1395.40]  Maybe so.
+[1396.12 --> 1397.70]  I mean, obviously, we haven't thought too much about it.
+[1397.72 --> 1398.40]  We don't really care.
+[1398.94 --> 1399.16]  Yeah.
+[1399.64 --> 1403.12]  I think it's an important point to make because, you know, just the same.
+[1403.84 --> 1408.38]  Well, the important point is that you don't have to move to go into a good job,
+[1408.38 --> 1413.66]  or you don't have to have people move to you to have good employees or have good people do good work for you.
+[1414.20 --> 1420.66]  I mean, I've been a remote worker, I guess, is a quote-unquote for contracting, running my own company.
+[1420.78 --> 1423.78]  I've been remote in every sense of the word since 2006.
+[1424.02 --> 1425.22]  I've never known actually to –
+[1425.22 --> 1430.28]  Maybe we've been doing this for so long, but I don't even get why people are interested in this anymore.
+[1430.82 --> 1434.18]  You know, who gives a f*** if you're remote if you're not remote, right?
+[1434.18 --> 1437.60]  I mean, ultimately, the things that matter are what can you do.
+[1437.72 --> 1438.16]  What can you do?
+[1438.28 --> 1438.48]  Right.
+[1438.62 --> 1438.98]  Absolutely.
+[1439.26 --> 1441.24]  So my dad had an engineering firm.
+[1441.44 --> 1448.74]  He had degrees as a structural and civil engineer, and he had an engineering firm where it was his company.
+[1449.24 --> 1453.38]  He ran it solely for, you know, like since I was a kid until he retired, right?
+[1453.44 --> 1454.92]  20, 30-something years, right?
+[1455.82 --> 1461.18]  I remember, you know, in my teenage years, you know, he'd be bitching about this employee or that employee.
+[1461.18 --> 1466.80]  And, you know, when he would interview somebody, people would come in with these resumes and with this and that.
+[1466.98 --> 1471.88]  And, you know, all he really cared about was what can you do, you know?
+[1472.08 --> 1473.28]  He didn't care about degrees.
+[1473.50 --> 1478.78]  He didn't care about, you know, the big names or the small-name companies you work for.
+[1478.86 --> 1480.14]  It was what can you do?
+[1480.64 --> 1489.24]  And I think that that's been our primary focus when we've looked to hiring people and looked is, you know, that's the only thing that matters.
+[1489.24 --> 1494.12]  What can you do, and does your personality match with our personality so that we can do it together?
+[1495.04 --> 1496.62]  Well, we do test projects, too, now.
+[1497.26 --> 1497.48]  Yeah.
+[1498.42 --> 1498.82]  How do you mean?
+[1499.22 --> 1500.40]  You do a little test project.
+[1500.60 --> 1500.82]  Yeah.
+[1502.42 --> 1510.00]  Oftentimes, before someone comes to work for us, we'll give them, like, a, you know, a 40-hour or so Rails app to build from the scratch.
+[1510.00 --> 1515.70]  And just see how the code looks, see what it was like working together during that week.
+[1515.98 --> 1517.72]  And really, we don't give them a design, too.
+[1517.82 --> 1522.52]  So I want to see how, I mean, we're not hiring developers that should be UI designers.
+[1522.66 --> 1527.90]  But they should have some UI sense to know how to put an assignment page in and know how to log in page and book.
+[1528.34 --> 1528.66]  Right.
+[1528.76 --> 1529.92]  And what the settings page should look like.
+[1529.94 --> 1532.70]  If they can't figure that out, then we certainly don't want to hire them.
+[1532.70 --> 1533.50]  That's interesting.
+[1533.64 --> 1537.02]  What's been, I guess, the response from that, from the developer?
+[1537.40 --> 1542.16]  And, you know, how many people have you actually hired or not hired, I guess, from doing that test?
+[1543.06 --> 1544.68]  It certainly drops the pool down.
+[1544.78 --> 1546.18]  Some people will say, I don't want to do that.
+[1546.26 --> 1548.60]  But it gives you the people that really want to work for you.
+[1549.60 --> 1549.88]  Yeah.
+[1549.88 --> 1561.52]  I mean, I think that, you know, what we've found is that because of our, you know, whatever level of success is that there are a certain number of people that actually want to work for us,
+[1561.52 --> 1563.28]  as opposed to just want a job.
+[1564.12 --> 1566.78]  And so I think that they tend to be a little bit more willing.
+[1566.88 --> 1574.52]  But we've actually found some really, really top-rate people doing that, top-notch people, and been really happy with them.
+[1575.72 --> 1578.76]  I think with John, we had, like, five people build it or something.
+[1578.86 --> 1582.84]  Yeah, and we picked John out of them all, and he was phenomenal.
+[1583.42 --> 1589.46]  Well, and one reason was, you know, Steve showed me the application he built, and he said, what UI stuff have you changed?
+[1589.46 --> 1593.10]  And I said, well, besides, you know, colors and spacing and things, not really much.
+[1593.56 --> 1593.70]  Yeah.
+[1594.32 --> 1594.60]  Yeah.
+[1595.60 --> 1596.86]  And everything worked, you know.
+[1596.96 --> 1599.44]  I mean, you know, he understood what the features were and he could build them.
+[1599.64 --> 1603.02]  And, you know, I mean, it's – so we've had success with that.
+[1603.02 --> 1609.64]  And speaking of creating relationships and choosing people based on how they can mesh well with you and your culture,
+[1609.78 --> 1612.20]  you're both pretty prolific Twitter users.
+[1612.54 --> 1617.68]  And I want to riff on social interactions and services like Twitter and Facebook
+[1617.68 --> 1622.50]  and what kind of role they've played in your personal successes as well as your business success.
+[1623.36 --> 1630.66]  Well, I mean, okay, so again, right, without tooting our own horns, you know, we gave BizStone the idea for Twitter.
+[1630.66 --> 1633.16]  Well, it was called Spitter at the time.
+[1633.34 --> 1634.08]  Right, right.
+[1634.12 --> 1634.90]  He changed it.
+[1634.96 --> 1637.36]  We didn't see any money from it, you know.
+[1638.68 --> 1643.10]  So, you know, there's a little bit of, you know, this and that with Twitter because of that.
+[1643.16 --> 1647.40]  But, I mean, ultimately, I mean, they did a great thing with it, you know, eventually.
+[1649.62 --> 1651.30]  You could say that, I guess.
+[1651.50 --> 1651.78]  Yeah.
+[1653.30 --> 1654.76]  You know, a little known thing.
+[1654.76 --> 1664.72]  You know, they didn't show this in the movie, but, you know, before Mark Zuckerberg wrote Facebook, you know, he talked to Alan about it.
+[1665.00 --> 1666.76]  Yeah, well, the idea was Spacebook.
+[1667.48 --> 1668.76]  It was a social network for aliens.
+[1669.88 --> 1670.22]  Right.
+[1670.40 --> 1675.42]  And he actually took that, made it a little more niche, you could say, catering it to Earth.
+[1675.80 --> 1676.64]  Right, right.
+[1676.70 --> 1677.70]  Terrible, terrible idea.
+[1678.58 --> 1679.86]  But he pulled it off.
+[1680.58 --> 1681.80]  You could, yeah, maybe.
+[1681.80 --> 1683.88]  And is that where Love by Less came from?
+[1685.70 --> 1686.86]  No, no.
+[1688.00 --> 1691.86]  Let's talk about some open source for a second since we're on the riff of social networks.
+[1691.98 --> 1700.42]  You guys, as an application development company for clients, you've got approached numerous, numerous times about, can you build this social network?
+[1700.70 --> 1702.06]  And your answer was what?
+[1702.54 --> 1703.02]  Yeah, so.
+[1703.46 --> 1704.50]  That's what it was.
+[1704.50 --> 1709.04]  Yeah, so in 2007, our biggest request was, hey, I have $5,000.
+[1709.38 --> 1712.68]  Can you make me a social network that also does this other thing, right?
+[1712.70 --> 1716.62]  And for five grand, they couldn't get a social network or the other thing.
+[1717.34 --> 1722.30]  So what we, you know, I mean, obviously we had some bigger clients that we did build social networks that do other things for.
+[1722.30 --> 1730.32]  But what we wound up doing was in early 2008, we released an open source piece of software called Loved by Less, which is an open source social network built in Rails.
+[1731.60 --> 1734.72]  And it's meant to be a starting platform for your application.
+[1735.92 --> 1738.16]  It's not the WordPress and social networks.
+[1738.52 --> 1739.12]  No, no.
+[1739.24 --> 1740.70]  It's just a starting point.
+[1740.70 --> 1747.14]  And so that way these people could take that and they could, you know, have a shot at building their application.
+[1748.28 --> 1754.48]  And it's, you know, we never made any money from it other than, you know, whatever kind of.
+[1754.60 --> 1754.94]  Not directly.
+[1755.42 --> 1756.48]  Not directly, right?
+[1756.54 --> 1762.64]  I mean, certainly people have come to us because we built it and other people have, you know, we've gotten referrals.
+[1762.88 --> 1766.38]  And I guess we've gotten a certain amount of press because of it.
+[1766.38 --> 1769.34]  But, you know, we never made any money directly from it.
+[1769.36 --> 1771.64]  And we certainly didn't make it as a moneymaker.
+[1772.04 --> 1774.30]  Well, there's the Loved by Less groupies.
+[1775.74 --> 1776.10]  Yeah.
+[1776.34 --> 1776.66]  Yeah.
+[1776.76 --> 1777.98]  I mean, he's really great.
+[1778.84 --> 1781.34]  No, I mean, in all seriousness, let's be serious.
+[1781.86 --> 1782.68]  Loved by Less.
+[1783.08 --> 1784.42]  I don't even want to talk about Loved by Less.
+[1784.56 --> 1784.98]  Who cares?
+[1785.34 --> 1787.38]  Fueled our consulting.
+[1788.48 --> 1789.26]  Yeah, it did.
+[1789.38 --> 1789.70]  Absolutely.
+[1789.98 --> 1790.34]  Absolutely.
+[1790.34 --> 1797.72]  It can directly point it back to we got the majority, which is, you know, a million plus dollars by now.
+[1798.06 --> 1803.50]  But on the flip side, the consulting company has forced us to not work on our products as much.
+[1803.92 --> 1806.92]  So maybe Loved by Less was the worst thing we ever did.
+[1807.44 --> 1811.68]  But now if you're a consultancy, you should absolutely be releasing open source stuff.
+[1811.98 --> 1813.58]  You should be building your own applications.
+[1813.58 --> 1824.18]  Because if a client calls me, which we don't do client work anymore, but if a client calls me and says, oh, yeah, I'm looking at your stuff and I want to see your client work.
+[1824.24 --> 1827.94]  I say, you're not looking at any of my past client work because it has all their opinions in it.
+[1828.24 --> 1831.26]  And all you're going to see is a lot of their opinions and you might judge me on their bad opinions.
+[1831.68 --> 1832.94]  Look at our applications.
+[1833.60 --> 1835.80]  So when they look at our applications, I say, see how great they are.
+[1836.08 --> 1840.32]  Why would you trust another company that can't even build their own applications for themselves to build your application?
+[1840.80 --> 1841.16]  Exactly.
+[1841.16 --> 1841.64]  Right.
+[1841.64 --> 1847.26]  Don't ever choose a consulting company to build an application for you that doesn't have their own application in production.
+[1847.86 --> 1852.26]  It's like saying, I'm going to hire a golf coach that's never picked up a golf club.
+[1853.34 --> 1855.96]  It's a golf coach who's only ever played putt-putt, right?
+[1856.40 --> 1858.54]  Who's never actually got out on the green, right?
+[1858.60 --> 1861.06]  Who's never got on the tour, right?
+[1862.10 --> 1863.26]  That's good points.
+[1863.32 --> 1864.40]  I enjoy those points a lot.
+[1865.08 --> 1870.40]  Alan, I guess this is more directed with you, but Stephen, I'm not sure what role you played in this.
+[1870.40 --> 1874.32]  But Alan, your brother John suffers from Lyme disease.
+[1874.64 --> 1876.40]  And earlier this year…
+[1876.40 --> 1879.02]  Are you just bringing this up because you know I'm not going to make a joke about it?
+[1879.16 --> 1880.08]  Because that's really not fair.
+[1880.40 --> 1880.72]  No.
+[1880.92 --> 1881.52]  No, not at all.
+[1881.60 --> 1885.78]  I think this is an important topic to talk about.
+[1885.84 --> 1887.08]  I think the campaign that…
+[1887.08 --> 1890.26]  So before we get into that, let's finish the answer with Twitter, right?
+[1890.46 --> 1895.20]  So the reality is that we're distributed and all our friends are distributed, right?
+[1895.36 --> 1897.06]  All our friends are all around the world.
+[1897.20 --> 1900.76]  We meet them at conferences.
+[1900.92 --> 1901.96]  We meet them all over the place.
+[1902.04 --> 1907.38]  And we use Twitter extensively to keep in touch and to build these friendships and relationships.
+[1907.38 --> 1915.04]  And we use Twitter to communicate with our clients, our customers of less accounting.
+[1915.22 --> 1918.16]  You know, just the other day somebody tweeted about they were having a problem with less accounting.
+[1918.96 --> 1920.28]  And I replied to them.
+[1920.76 --> 1921.44]  They called me.
+[1921.54 --> 1922.28]  They sent me an email.
+[1922.48 --> 1923.48]  I asked for their phone number.
+[1924.42 --> 1927.14]  The guy called me up and it turned out he was reading the calendar wrong, right?
+[1927.16 --> 1928.10]  No big deal, right?
+[1928.10 --> 1933.00]  But we use that stuff all the time to communicate with people and as an interaction tool.
+[1933.66 --> 1940.46]  So Twitter has been a great source of connection for us and getting the word out.
+[1941.28 --> 1942.92]  You know, we both have a few followers.
+[1943.60 --> 1951.30]  So, you know, we tend to get, you know, people who will retweet our stuff and who will help get the word out.
+[1951.42 --> 1956.44]  You know, I can't emphasize enough how making real relationships and real connections
+[1956.44 --> 1962.20]  and then you use Twitter to continue to grow them when you're in faraway places
+[1962.20 --> 1964.58]  and then you get together once or twice a year and you see these people.
+[1965.78 --> 1966.56]  It's tremendous.
+[1967.30 --> 1968.74]  But it is a tool.
+[1968.96 --> 1972.64]  And if you're just not good at Twitter or you don't get it, it's not going to save your business.
+[1973.12 --> 1974.42]  You don't have to be on there.
+[1975.00 --> 1975.44]  It's not.
+[1975.52 --> 1979.18]  I'm not a big, I don't prescribe to the snake oil that a lot of people are selling
+[1979.18 --> 1981.00]  that you have to have a Twitter account and a Facebook account.
+[1982.20 --> 1985.12]  If you have nothing to say, don't say anything.
+[1986.44 --> 1986.92]  Absolutely.
+[1988.10 --> 1988.50]  Absolutely.
+[1988.90 --> 1991.22]  Don't try to mimic other people that are on Twitter.
+[1991.96 --> 1992.22]  Right.
+[1992.30 --> 1994.34]  Don't be a robotic RSS feed.
+[1994.98 --> 1995.26]  Right.
+[1995.46 --> 1996.80]  Don't retweet everything.
+[1997.66 --> 1997.96]  Yes.
+[1998.16 --> 2001.86]  You actually wrote a good post on your blog titled Your Twitter Stream Sucks,
+[2001.96 --> 2003.56]  which probably points out a lot of the stuff that pisses you off about that.
+[2003.56 --> 2006.96]  Well, it was actually, I should have just sent you an email.
+[2007.42 --> 2007.64]  Yeah.
+[2007.92 --> 2009.66]  It's actually supposed to be just for you.
+[2009.66 --> 2011.28]  Do you even follow Adam anymore?
+[2011.42 --> 2012.60]  Because I haven't followed Adam anymore.
+[2012.68 --> 2014.78]  See, here's the problem with Adam's Twitter account.
+[2014.78 --> 2021.14]  A year ago, he was exciting and fun and peppy and he was a joy.
+[2021.62 --> 2021.84]  Right.
+[2021.84 --> 2024.68]  But over the past year, he's become less interesting.
+[2024.82 --> 2025.78]  He doesn't tweet as much.
+[2025.82 --> 2026.54]  He's not around.
+[2026.94 --> 2028.34]  All you hear about is the podcast.
+[2028.60 --> 2033.48]  I want to hear about the kid, his little daughter, and how they're going to the park
+[2033.48 --> 2034.74]  and how they're eating ice cream.
+[2035.10 --> 2036.30]  I want to know what he's working on.
+[2036.56 --> 2038.48]  I want to know what articles he finds interesting.
+[2038.80 --> 2039.88]  But he stopped doing it.
+[2039.88 --> 2040.28]  Right.
+[2040.42 --> 2043.76]  And he turned into an RSVS feed that's just like an advertisement.
+[2044.14 --> 2045.98]  I kind of read that blog post and got convicted.
+[2046.10 --> 2048.74]  I was like, man, I fall into some of these categories.
+[2048.86 --> 2049.94]  No wonder why they don't follow me anymore.
+[2050.04 --> 2053.98]  It stopped being a conversation and Adam just started broadcasting.
+[2054.48 --> 2054.76]  Yep.
+[2055.80 --> 2060.98]  I think we can all tend to fall in traps like that just for our own reasons or life reasons.
+[2061.34 --> 2061.98]  Life's hard.
+[2062.12 --> 2062.70]  Life isn't fair.
+[2062.80 --> 2063.22]  Life is hard.
+[2063.32 --> 2066.76]  There's things that happen that you can't really make excuses about and things happen.
+[2066.76 --> 2068.88]  And I think it's an important point.
+[2068.94 --> 2071.02]  I did turn into some of those things.
+[2071.18 --> 2074.00]  And I was convicted when I listened, when I read your blog post.
+[2074.30 --> 2076.58]  So, you know, like I said, I'll strive harder.
+[2076.74 --> 2081.22]  I'll do my best to kick it back up a notch and be more exciting and get back into those zones.
+[2081.74 --> 2082.74]  Well, but don't.
+[2082.86 --> 2084.08]  Just be yourself, right?
+[2084.08 --> 2084.56]  Of course.
+[2084.56 --> 2086.34]  You, by yourself, is an exciting person.
+[2086.50 --> 2087.30]  You're always energetic.
+[2087.48 --> 2089.34]  You always have something nice to say, right?
+[2089.50 --> 2091.44]  Just be yourself, you know?
+[2091.44 --> 2096.92]  You don't have to be somebody else or get back into it.
+[2096.92 --> 2097.68]  Just be yourself.
+[2098.50 --> 2098.90]  Absolutely.
+[2099.44 --> 2101.06]  But it does take effort, right?
+[2101.14 --> 2102.46]  It takes effort to post things.
+[2102.54 --> 2103.76]  It takes effort to read things.
+[2103.86 --> 2104.82]  It takes effort to reply.
+[2106.26 --> 2107.36]  I'm following Adam.
+[2108.04 --> 2110.56]  I had to double check because I haven't heard of him in such a long time.
+[2111.08 --> 2112.72]  But I actually am following Adam still.
+[2112.72 --> 2118.78]  So let's move on to the question I was asking about your brother, John.
+[2119.08 --> 2125.82]  Because this is all stemming from that previous question, which is, you know, what role did that play?
+[2125.90 --> 2126.64]  What role did Twitter play?
+[2126.70 --> 2129.74]  And what role did social networks and interactions on social networks play for you guys?
+[2129.86 --> 2132.88]  So, Alan, you know, this is primarily positioned towards you.
+[2132.94 --> 2134.66]  But your brother, John, suffers from Lyme disease.
+[2135.38 --> 2140.72]  Earlier this year, he had slipped into a coma and his health took a serious turn for what could have been the worst.
+[2140.72 --> 2142.58]  He needed some serious medical help.
+[2143.26 --> 2145.44]  It was actually more like 18 months ago.
+[2146.10 --> 2147.46]  No, it was January.
+[2147.78 --> 2148.62]  Beginning of this year.
+[2148.84 --> 2149.76]  Yeah, January of this year.
+[2149.90 --> 2150.00]  Okay.
+[2151.48 --> 2154.00]  I just want, you know, whatever you can share.
+[2154.12 --> 2155.88]  Can you talk about the campaign you started on Twitter?
+[2156.50 --> 2158.52]  I'm not sure if it ended up on Facebook or not.
+[2158.58 --> 2160.66]  But pretty much you just reached out to your friends.
+[2161.10 --> 2161.54]  So, yeah.
+[2161.66 --> 2163.42]  So my brother, my parents have health insurance.
+[2164.50 --> 2168.78]  And he got infected with Lyme about a year and a half ago.
+[2168.92 --> 2170.06]  No, two years ago.
+[2170.42 --> 2171.00]  Two years ago.
+[2171.00 --> 2171.92]  That's what I'm saying.
+[2171.92 --> 2172.00]  Yeah.
+[2172.24 --> 2175.92]  And the medical bills were in the South.
+[2175.98 --> 2177.58]  And the South doesn't know much about Lyme disease.
+[2178.06 --> 2179.12]  They think it's not here.
+[2179.54 --> 2184.74]  So whenever he would go to the doctor here where he would have issues, they would say, oh, it's psychiatric issues.
+[2184.74 --> 2188.76]  When really they're trying to, it's really Lyme and he's been tested positive for Lyme.
+[2189.26 --> 2193.82]  And he's gone to Lyme doctors but he can't go to them regularly because they're far away and it costs lots of money.
+[2194.20 --> 2195.24]  My parents have health insurance.
+[2195.24 --> 2202.96]  So over the course of two years, they had like $200,000 in medical bills over what the insurance would cover.
+[2204.16 --> 2206.06]  And my parents are small business owners.
+[2206.22 --> 2206.90]  They own car washes.
+[2206.90 --> 2212.50]  And so I guess January of last year, he started slipping into a coma.
+[2212.72 --> 2214.60]  Got hospitalized in Panama City.
+[2214.60 --> 2218.46]  And they basically were almost stopped.
+[2218.54 --> 2219.66]  They almost had stopped treating him.
+[2219.70 --> 2221.48]  They said he is schizophrenic.
+[2221.52 --> 2222.52]  He's in a schizophrenic coma.
+[2223.16 --> 2225.18]  My parents are saying, we just need to get him to New York.
+[2225.28 --> 2229.50]  Well, we're not going to release him unless he has an air flight.
+[2229.62 --> 2231.46]  And the air flights cost like $15,000.
+[2232.56 --> 2233.22]  And my parents were.
+[2233.22 --> 2234.14]  A medical air flight, right.
+[2234.18 --> 2234.88]  A medical air flight.
+[2234.88 --> 2237.16]  So they're like, because he's basically completely out of it.
+[2237.62 --> 2242.48]  And he was sitting in this hospital for like 18 days, you know, not eating and just withering away.
+[2243.26 --> 2246.78]  And so my parents are just leveraged to the bone.
+[2247.36 --> 2251.48]  And so I was at a conference and we were both at a conference.
+[2251.56 --> 2252.80]  We were at Social Fresh in Tampa.
+[2252.80 --> 2261.56]  And Steve said, hey, you know, wouldn't it be cool if we just put a PayPal link up and said, Alan's brother and family needs help.
+[2262.24 --> 2263.44]  Can you donate a dollar?
+[2263.58 --> 2264.82]  Can you donate five bucks?
+[2265.18 --> 2265.28]  Right.
+[2265.60 --> 2267.28]  And Alan didn't want to do it at first.
+[2267.62 --> 2272.96]  Alan's not the type of person that can go out and ask for money and ask, you know, for that kind of assistance.
+[2273.46 --> 2275.66]  And then I really pushed and I said, hey, you know what?
+[2275.90 --> 2277.58]  This is exactly what our friends are for.
+[2277.58 --> 2289.28]  This is exactly the type of thing that we can use our website and our, you know, our, I mean, I don't want to say popularity, but, you know, our reach or whatever word you want to use, right.
+[2290.26 --> 2292.00]  And then Alan said, okay.
+[2292.18 --> 2294.38]  And I put something up and then Alan made it look pretty.
+[2294.38 --> 2296.24]  And then we just started tweeting about it.
+[2296.30 --> 2297.56]  I think it was one or two tweets.
+[2298.12 --> 2298.56]  And, um.
+[2299.50 --> 2300.14]  Yeah, it was.
+[2300.34 --> 2307.30]  Well, I was in a hotel room and I tweeted the link out and, uh, like went to the bathroom and came back.
+[2307.30 --> 2310.88]  And it was like, within two minutes there was like 1,200 bucks in it.
+[2311.02 --> 2312.30]  And Adam, you were the first person.
+[2312.30 --> 2313.18]  I mentioned that before.
+[2313.30 --> 2314.26]  I'll never forget that.
+[2314.92 --> 2316.42]  You were the first person to donate.
+[2316.58 --> 2318.20]  You donated practically instantly.
+[2318.20 --> 2321.24]  And I will never forget that.
+[2321.24 --> 2321.84]  Mm-hmm.
+[2321.84 --> 2327.88]  And, uh, so within, uh, I think, you know, after a week or so, there was about 50 grand with donations in there.
+[2327.92 --> 2333.14]  And most of these were $10 and $20 and $500 and just across the board.
+[2333.52 --> 2333.80]  Yep.
+[2333.80 --> 2336.30]  Most people, I don't know who they are.
+[2336.62 --> 2340.70]  My parents have gone out and sent thank you notes and replies to these people since then.
+[2340.92 --> 2346.66]  But, um, and it certainly was much bigger than us and our popularity and who we know.
+[2346.66 --> 2356.88]  So, uh, you know, when my little brother's, uh, friends in high schools threw like a little, uh, uh, fundraisers for him and a bowling tournament for him.
+[2356.88 --> 2359.34]  You know, just all sorts of stuff to really pitch in.
+[2359.78 --> 2362.96]  And, uh, and I got him to New York and he's back doing much better.
+[2363.02 --> 2366.56]  Now he still has a lot of issues, but, uh, he's certainly on the right path and seeing the right doctors.
+[2366.56 --> 2368.90]  And the money did absolutely help.
+[2369.14 --> 2375.34]  And it was absolutely the most humbling experience you could ever imagine seeing people that have,
+[2375.34 --> 2380.40]  that appear to have no money donate is more than they should.
+[2380.52 --> 2386.18]  And, uh, and, and people you don't even know donating and retweeting and thank yous and, and thoughts and prayers.
+[2386.28 --> 2387.24]  And it was just, it was amazing.
+[2387.34 --> 2387.90]  It still is.
+[2387.98 --> 2388.60]  It still is amazing.
+[2389.28 --> 2393.38]  And so how has that changed your life that, that moment in time?
+[2393.82 --> 2401.82]  I'm certain it wasn't the, I don't know if it was the Twitter things or just, um, maybe his issues in general,
+[2401.82 --> 2404.50]  but I'm certainly, I think I'm more compassionate than I used to be.
+[2405.34 --> 2412.48]  Um, for people that are in those kinds of circumstances, um, my, my dad has since, um,
+[2412.66 --> 2415.20]  the current Washington doing better now, his business is doing better.
+[2415.28 --> 2420.66]  He's donating money to Lyme, um, funds and charities now, uh, and helping people get,
+[2420.92 --> 2423.02]  find the right doctors and that sort of stuff.
+[2423.02 --> 2429.76]  But, um, uh, you know, uh, compassion and, uh, you know, just in general, you know, when you have a,
+[2429.76 --> 2437.34]  when your brother goes into a coma, you just feel helpless and, uh, you just realize how shitty the world is.
+[2437.34 --> 2440.24]  And like, you just want to hug your kids and never let them go.
+[2440.76 --> 2445.84]  And, uh, and, and just spend more time with them and realize that work is not that important.
+[2445.84 --> 2448.72]  And we're just doing it to make a living so we can spend more time with our families.
+[2448.72 --> 2455.96]  So I guess the, the biggest motivator for you guys is just to be able to provide for your families and spend time for your families.
+[2456.04 --> 2456.82]  Is that safe to say?
+[2458.14 --> 2458.54]  Yeah.
+[2458.72 --> 2459.72]  And money for bitches.
+[2461.24 --> 2461.92]  Like you.
+[2462.28 --> 2462.78]  Like me.
+[2463.00 --> 2463.32]  Yep.
+[2463.42 --> 2464.12]  The biggest one.
+[2464.86 --> 2468.70]  Sorry to bring up such a, a, uh, that topic touched me.
+[2468.70 --> 2469.98]  How am I going to make a gay joke now?
+[2471.34 --> 2472.66]  You can't make a gay joke.
+[2472.88 --> 2473.24]  I know.
+[2473.30 --> 2473.82]  It's impossible.
+[2473.82 --> 2475.56]  But you know, I love both you guys deeply.
+[2475.56 --> 2477.98]  You guys, but that's just cause John's not gay.
+[2478.12 --> 2480.90]  I mean, you know, you can still make gay jokes about you and Adam.
+[2481.20 --> 2481.66]  Oh, okay.
+[2481.96 --> 2482.28]  Okay.
+[2482.72 --> 2483.36]  But okay.
+[2483.46 --> 2484.38]  So another question.
+[2484.90 --> 2485.34]  Yeah.
+[2485.48 --> 2487.70]  I mean, so like, how did all this happen?
+[2487.78 --> 2493.44]  It happened because, uh, I, I, I've, I've been, uh, friendly to people on Twitter and met people
+[2493.44 --> 2495.46]  at conferences and kept up those relationships.
+[2495.84 --> 2501.02]  I certainly, you can't, you can't, you know, starting a movement or starting a campaign,
+[2501.02 --> 2505.00]  whatever you don't call it is maybe a little egotistical, but you know, the fuel was there
+[2505.00 --> 2505.60]  for the fire.
+[2505.72 --> 2509.62]  I didn't create all the fuel, you know, but I, there's certainly, you know, you were
+[2509.62 --> 2510.06]  my friend.
+[2510.14 --> 2512.24]  You felt compelled to help me.
+[2512.46 --> 2515.58]  You know, why, why, why did you feel compelled to help me?
+[2516.04 --> 2518.50]  Uh, because we're friends, right?
+[2518.96 --> 2523.18]  Because you feel like, you know, me, I know you, and I would help you in the same situation.
+[2523.40 --> 2525.50]  So that's all I can even imagine being in that situation.
+[2525.50 --> 2530.58]  And I knew that whatever I can give whenever I can give it was, was, you know, by God's
+[2530.58 --> 2531.40]  grace that I have it.
+[2531.50 --> 2534.50]  So I felt compelled to give it to you and you're, I love you guys.
+[2534.58 --> 2535.48]  You guys are my good friends.
+[2535.48 --> 2538.86]  So whatever I could have done, I was, it was on the table.
+[2539.54 --> 2540.10]  Thank you.
+[2540.10 --> 2543.50]  So, but, uh, let's move on from that for a moment.
+[2543.58 --> 2547.00]  Let's talk about, uh, two more things, two more main topics I want to talk about.
+[2547.46 --> 2550.34]  Uh, the biggest thing is we know what less accounting is now.
+[2550.38 --> 2553.74]  It's, it's, um, it's your, your primo application.
+[2553.74 --> 2555.16]  It's the bread and butter of your business.
+[2555.30 --> 2557.58]  From what I understand it accounts for about half of your revenue.
+[2558.26 --> 2562.58]  Um, but there's, there's something that hasn't been discussed yet really.
+[2562.58 --> 2566.32]  And I'm not sure if you've talked with the, talked about this publicly or in depth, but
+[2566.32 --> 2571.70]  there's a bigger fish in the, in the pond, which is QuickBooks starting out with a application
+[2571.70 --> 2572.12]  like that.
+[2572.18 --> 2576.70]  How did you feel going towards, did you ever feel like you were competition to them?
+[2576.88 --> 2580.66]  What has this bigger animal in the, in the pond?
+[2580.70 --> 2584.24]  I suppose you say, what has it been for you guys in developing less accounting?
+[2585.20 --> 2587.78]  Well, I mean, they've been our inspiration.
+[2588.70 --> 2594.40]  If, if they hadn't sucked so badly, we would never have built less accounting.
+[2594.40 --> 2600.58]  And less accounting is, uh, less accounting is about four, almost five years old now since
+[2600.58 --> 2602.88]  it's pre less everything kind of.
+[2603.22 --> 2607.90]  Um, well, but it was launched in, in like April or May of 2007.
+[2608.14 --> 2609.12]  And how is that?
+[2609.36 --> 2611.72]  How is less accounting morphed over time?
+[2611.78 --> 2612.56]  How has it changed?
+[2612.62 --> 2618.04]  Has it been a different application each time or has just like naturally, um, organically
+[2618.04 --> 2618.72]  evolved?
+[2620.86 --> 2623.52]  Uh, well, certainly redesigns happen.
+[2623.52 --> 2624.94]  We make features better.
+[2625.26 --> 2626.18]  We listen to users.
+[2626.28 --> 2627.20]  We don't listen to users.
+[2627.34 --> 2630.22]  We were constantly making things more elegant, easier to use.
+[2630.40 --> 2636.64]  I think now we figured out a few things like, uh, we're trying to make less accounting, not
+[2636.64 --> 2642.38]  only, not only throw you some features, but we're, our job is really to make your life
+[2642.38 --> 2646.30]  as a business owner, all the business stuff, the book stuff.
+[2646.30 --> 2651.46]  We're trying to make that as easy as possible on you, uh, and handholding and that sort
+[2651.46 --> 2655.30]  of stuff, because you just want to get back to work and you're a designer, you're a coder,
+[2655.36 --> 2655.70]  whatever.
+[2656.36 --> 2657.94]  Uh, uh, you run an e-commerce site.
+[2658.00 --> 2661.48]  You don't want to spend your time on your books and we're kind of figuring out how to
+[2661.48 --> 2662.54]  explain that better.
+[2662.64 --> 2666.60]  Most people have no idea what bookkeeping is and we're having to teach them what bookkeeping
+[2666.60 --> 2670.46]  is in the same process of, of, uh, showing these features to them.
+[2670.46 --> 2673.64]  You can't just dump a user in and say, you know, it's not, I mean, base camp, right?
+[2673.82 --> 2675.18]  Here's some features, go use them.
+[2675.38 --> 2680.12]  Well, project management really, for most people doesn't have, there's no, there's best
+[2680.12 --> 2684.96]  practices, but there's no governing government body telling you how you should kind of report
+[2684.96 --> 2689.08]  back to them with your, you know, uh, project management app.
+[2689.66 --> 2690.06]  Right.
+[2690.14 --> 2694.70]  So we have some stuff to adhere to, um, uh, for government reasons and that sort of thing.
+[2694.70 --> 2698.40]  But, uh, I think, I think we're just now kind of figuring out, wrapping our head around
+[2698.40 --> 2699.94]  what the users need just now.
+[2700.46 --> 2706.34]  And I guess as part of this campaign to raise awareness and get in a limelight, like you
+[2706.34 --> 2710.44]  did with, uh, uh, I guess somewhat with love by less, you, you kind of got a little taste
+[2710.44 --> 2714.66]  of it there, but you also created this website called we all hate quick books.com, which essentially
+[2714.66 --> 2720.16]  pulls tweets from Twitter about people who are complaining about their experiences with,
+[2720.16 --> 2721.78]  uh, quick books.
+[2721.90 --> 2724.20]  What, what has that done for less accounting?
+[2725.82 --> 2726.18]  Sure.
+[2726.30 --> 2726.98]  I'll talk about that.
+[2726.98 --> 2729.68]  I mean, I think it was back in the day.
+[2729.68 --> 2734.14]  I'm not sure how much it plays into the success now, but it's kind of a cool scenario to say,
+[2734.22 --> 2737.70]  here's an easy way to raise awareness about something else.
+[2737.76 --> 2738.36]  Everybody hates.
+[2738.42 --> 2739.88]  And here's how we solve your problems.
+[2739.88 --> 2740.24]  Right.
+[2740.34 --> 2743.66]  So I guess it was like 2008 or something.
+[2743.92 --> 2745.54]  Uh, Twitter was new.
+[2745.54 --> 2751.50]  Uh, I was searching for quick books on Twitter to see people saying, and, uh, it was all just
+[2751.50 --> 2752.42]  terrible things.
+[2752.56 --> 2754.38]  Quick books crashed again.
+[2754.54 --> 2755.98]  I hate quick books, blah, blah.
+[2756.40 --> 2760.02]  And I thought, wow, these are great testimonials, uh, for quick books.
+[2760.02 --> 2765.98]  And, uh, and so, uh, talk to Steve and we basically built an app and it made a few hours where it
+[2765.98 --> 2769.24]  pulls in every word, any tweet that says quick books from Twitter.
+[2769.24 --> 2774.08]  And it was using the, uh, still uses the API and not that cause there was no RSS feed around,
+[2774.08 --> 2775.24]  uh, for Twitter.
+[2775.74 --> 2780.38]  And, uh, and, and it brought up a lot of, we got a lot of links.
+[2780.46 --> 2783.66]  People thought it was funny and hilarious and unique and ballsy.
+[2783.66 --> 2785.68]  And, uh, we would kind of go after quick books.
+[2785.74 --> 2787.18]  We showed good and bad tweets.
+[2787.70 --> 2793.88]  Uh, but since then, uh, into it has put people on Twitter responding to tweets and people have
+[2793.88 --> 2797.76]  figured out that Twitter, you can put out links that say, you know, affiliate links and
+[2797.76 --> 2799.76]  that sort of thing. So we all have quick books.
+[2799.86 --> 2802.84]  Now the content of it, uh, is more spammy.
+[2802.94 --> 2807.36]  And, you know, if we really wanted to push the app further, we would kind of, uh, cultivate or,
+[2807.36 --> 2811.14]  or curate the tweets to make sure they are negative tweets.
+[2811.46 --> 2812.84]  Um, but we haven't done that.
+[2812.84 --> 2817.12]  It gave us a lot of great links for about six months and we still probably get 20 or 30 clicks
+[2817.12 --> 2817.78]  a month from it.
+[2818.16 --> 2821.48]  I guess the point I want to extract from that really is, you know, how did that relate to,
+[2821.98 --> 2824.96]  um, new users and signups and ultimately revenue?
+[2825.40 --> 2827.04]  Right. Well, we have no money, right?
+[2827.04 --> 2829.74]  So, uh, you don't, we can't go by booth space.
+[2829.82 --> 2831.04]  We can't go by banner ads.
+[2831.14 --> 2833.62]  We can't travel around to a lot of conferences.
+[2833.70 --> 2834.80]  We try to travel as much as we can.
+[2834.90 --> 2838.06]  So we have to use the tools and the constraints that we have in front of us.
+[2838.10 --> 2840.22]  And we know how to write code and design things.
+[2840.58 --> 2843.82]  And we are willing to do things that, uh, are a little controversial.
+[2844.10 --> 2849.40]  So, uh, that's how I saw you heard the reason why it was interesting.
+[2849.40 --> 2852.02]  So we just built it and that's, that's our form of marketing, right?
+[2852.58 --> 2856.20]  Um, we don't have money to spend on traditional advertising.
+[2857.04 --> 2860.16]  And is that kind of where the idea for less conf came from too?
+[2860.26 --> 2864.20]  Is it, is it something that you actually believe would turn into this phenomenal conference?
+[2864.20 --> 2868.54]  Like for me, all I can say as well about less conference, I think it was phenomenal.
+[2868.80 --> 2872.70]  I didn't make it out this year, but, uh, I did make it out to 2009 less conf.
+[2872.70 --> 2880.92]  And I can honestly look back at, uh, at that moment in time and see it as a significant turning point for me in, in so many ways.
+[2880.92 --> 2889.74]  It's when I got really excited about, uh, the web 2.0 show, which is kind of where founders talk came from, from what I extracted from what I loved about doing that show.
+[2889.74 --> 2895.48]  Can you guys talk a little bit about that, that conference and what key things happen to take it from idea to execution?
+[2896.62 --> 2897.02]  Sure.
+[2897.20 --> 2901.70]  So, uh, Steve had had the idea to throw a conference for, for a year or two.
+[2901.70 --> 2904.98]  And I kept saying, no, no, no, we need to build the application.
+[2905.12 --> 2906.52]  We need to do client work, blah, blah, blah.
+[2907.00 --> 2916.08]  And I went to a small conference in Tampa called front end design comp, uh, a hundred people, uh, one track, lots of good conversation.
+[2916.80 --> 2919.88]  And, uh, and came back and said, we need to do this.
+[2920.28 --> 2923.06]  And, uh, Steve said, okay, do it.
+[2923.14 --> 2925.82]  And so, uh, I said, let's do it this fall.
+[2925.82 --> 2927.98]  And so we had seven weeks to plan it and throw it.
+[2928.58 --> 2937.64]  And we, uh, we picked like, I think it was October 16th and I was seven weeks away and we started promoting it through Twitter and to our friends and our friends showed up.
+[2938.42 --> 2941.82]  And, um, and, and throwing conferences is hard.
+[2941.96 --> 2945.52]  It's, I mean, you can certainly make money from it if you do it very lean.
+[2945.60 --> 2947.04]  It's just like any business.
+[2947.10 --> 2950.22]  If you do it lean enough, uh, you can make money from it.
+[2950.60 --> 2952.14]  Um, and we do ours very lean.
+[2952.14 --> 2956.74]  It's very much Steve and I, uh, and our friends getting together and talking and having some speakers.
+[2956.94 --> 2957.86]  Has it been profitable for you?
+[2958.88 --> 2962.24]  Uh, the second one was the first one I think we broke even on.
+[2962.36 --> 2971.78]  I need to know the numbers, but, uh, it certainly has been great marketing for us and building our brand more and getting to know more people and, and hearing great spirits.
+[2971.86 --> 2973.82]  But we built a conference that we'd want to go to.
+[2974.24 --> 2977.68]  And, uh, some people, uh, you know, the, the websites are silly.
+[2977.76 --> 2979.60]  We have silly things that don't make sense.
+[2979.60 --> 2986.92]  And if, if the website's too silly for you, then you probably shouldn't come because you're not going to like how silly we are on stage.
+[2986.92 --> 2987.30]  Right.
+[2987.40 --> 2987.88]  So, so.
+[2988.68 --> 2990.02]  What's the plan with less conference?
+[2990.20 --> 2993.22]  Is it, uh, 2011 or are you going to do one this year?
+[2993.90 --> 2994.60]  Oh, certainly.
+[2994.72 --> 2998.04]  So we have, uh, less conference 2011 BC.
+[2999.44 --> 3004.68]  Be there or be extinct coming up in April, late April, 2011.
+[3004.68 --> 3005.96]  I'm not going to give the date yet.
+[3006.84 --> 3008.78]  Um, but, uh, we're going to release that January.
+[3008.78 --> 3008.96]  What city?
+[3010.36 --> 3010.80]  Atlanta.
+[3011.02 --> 3012.00]  I'm going to do Atlanta again.
+[3012.00 --> 3022.36]  We have a very cool venue there that has like a eight megabit speed up and like 30, no, 36 up and 86 down is their internet speed.
+[3022.50 --> 3027.06]  So, uh, most conferences have really crappy internet and ours has the best.
+[3027.26 --> 3028.46]  And also massages too.
+[3028.46 --> 3030.88]  Is that still a common thing that's going to happen every year?
+[3031.00 --> 3039.94]  The massages and the massages and lots of free t-shirts and hopefully a couple books and, uh, lunch with the speakers.
+[3039.94 --> 3044.18]  If you were the first people to sign up, you get to pick your table with a speaker and sit with them and talk to them.
+[3044.28 --> 3044.82]  One on one.
+[3045.06 --> 3047.96]  Well, 10 people at a table, uh, 11 kind of the speaker.
+[3048.36 --> 3049.46]  But, uh, yeah, totally.
+[3049.54 --> 3050.42]  Lots of good conversation.
+[3050.54 --> 3051.22]  Very informal.
+[3052.12 --> 3053.86]  Um, yeah.
+[3053.86 --> 3054.88]  All right.
+[3054.88 --> 3055.94]  One last question for you guys.
+[3055.94 --> 3056.60]  And we'll wrap this up.
+[3056.60 --> 3062.32]  I know it's a, it's a longer show, but, uh, is there anything that Steven, I talked to you yesterday and you mentioned something super secret.
+[3062.44 --> 3064.84]  So that's why I'm asking this question specifically just because of that.
+[3064.86 --> 3071.16]  Is there anything that, that you guys are working on that super secret that you haven't told anybody else about that you can announce right here today on the show?
+[3072.14 --> 3076.04]  Ooh, no, we're not going to, I mean, we can announce that we're working on something super secret.
+[3077.12 --> 3077.52]  Ooh.
+[3080.18 --> 3080.54]  Yeah.
+[3080.54 --> 3081.36]  I don't know.
+[3082.50 --> 3083.68]  You want to guess, Adam?
+[3084.84 --> 3085.92]  I have no guesses.
+[3086.88 --> 3087.58]  Oh, well.
+[3088.12 --> 3090.02]  Then your audience is going to pay the price.
+[3090.44 --> 3090.70]  Yep.
+[3091.50 --> 3092.44]  And it's going to be your fault.
+[3092.56 --> 3094.54]  You're going to be responsible for that because you didn't take a guess.
+[3095.44 --> 3096.20]  Well, all right, guys.
+[3096.28 --> 3098.24]  Well, since there's nothing super secret, I guess that's about it.
+[3098.32 --> 3100.16]  You know, we've been friends for a long time.
+[3100.38 --> 3102.82]  I, whether you like it or not, I admire you guys in business.
+[3102.82 --> 3115.18]  So I admire what you guys have done for our community with less conference, with your, your, um, your personalities, your relentless pursuit of being true and being real.
+[3115.18 --> 3118.38]  I really appreciate that tenacity in that, in that regard.
+[3118.38 --> 3119.86]  And I appreciate you guys coming on the show.
+[3120.18 --> 3121.12]  What about our looks?
+[3121.34 --> 3122.14]  I love your looks.
+[3122.36 --> 3123.14]  I, that goes without saying.
+[3123.24 --> 3125.88]  I don't think I had to mention that specifically.
+[3126.66 --> 3127.16]  Thank you.
+[3127.20 --> 3127.96]  I appreciate that.
+[3127.96 --> 3130.60]  But on a serious note, thanks for coming on the show.
+[3130.76 --> 3131.32]  It's been a pleasure.
+[3131.86 --> 3132.50]  Thank you, Adam.
+[3133.86 --> 3137.92]  Thanks again to our sponsors and eventapart.com and campaignmonitor.com.
+[3138.22 --> 3142.84]  Please visit 5by5.tv to learn more about all the other shows that we produce.
+[3142.84 --> 3142.90]  Thank you.

Geoffrey Grosenbach ⧸ PeepCode_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,400 @@
+[0.00 --> 5.06]  This is Founders Talk, an interview podcast profiling founders, building businesses both online and offline.
+[5.38 --> 9.82]  I'm your host, Adam Stachowiak, joined by Dan Benjamin, founder of 5x5 Studios.
+[9.92 --> 10.34]  How are you, Dan?
+[10.68 --> 12.04]  Hey, I'm doing well.
+[12.84 --> 14.24]  Why am I on this show, Adam?
+[14.92 --> 15.98]  Well, you know, it's your network.
+[16.22 --> 16.84]  It's my show.
+[16.96 --> 18.80]  We joined up, and that's how it goes.
+[19.12 --> 19.56]  Well, that's right.
+[19.66 --> 23.48]  We're here to sort of launch your brand new show.
+[23.74 --> 25.34]  And why this show?
+[25.34 --> 31.26]  I mean, you've got other shows out there that are, I must say, quite successful and popular.
+[32.12 --> 32.18]  Yeah.
+[32.36 --> 36.12]  The Web 2.0 show came about a long, long time ago, way before I even joined it.
+[36.32 --> 41.52]  But it just seen its day, and I felt like making a small change.
+[41.72 --> 42.74]  So Founders Talk was born.
+[43.36 --> 46.22]  I also run the Change Log, both blog and podcast.
+[46.44 --> 46.96]  Pretty popular.
+[49.00 --> 49.44]  Exciting.
+[49.88 --> 50.06]  Yeah.
+[50.12 --> 51.34]  Well, this is something new, though.
+[51.34 --> 58.00]  And we thought, since we were going to be making it a part of 5x5, that it deserved some attention.
+[58.16 --> 60.82]  It deserved a proper launch.
+[61.44 --> 61.70]  Absolutely.
+[62.56 --> 67.94]  Cracking the champagne bottle across the bow of the ship before it sets sail, so to speak.
+[68.36 --> 68.82]  That's right.
+[68.92 --> 69.10]  Yeah.
+[69.38 --> 70.10]  Champagne everywhere.
+[70.24 --> 70.68]  I love it.
+[71.10 --> 71.72]  Of course, flying.
+[71.72 --> 79.04]  But I think the fun thing to take away from this, really, is that there's lots of founders out there building some awesome businesses, both online and offline.
+[79.20 --> 81.74]  But there's just so much good stories I could tell everybody.
+[81.98 --> 88.28]  And that's really what I want to achieve, is to talk to the founders building businesses that you and I both know and love, or want to know and love.
+[88.42 --> 95.18]  And extract whatever we can from their story in business, whether it's fame or failure, and share that with everyone else.
+[95.36 --> 96.18]  So that's what we're all about.
+[96.18 --> 97.22]  Well, it's exciting.
+[97.34 --> 98.52]  It's a great topic.
+[98.84 --> 109.68]  And I think one of the things that people who enjoy the shows that we put out here always want to hear more of is, you know, how did this idea, how did this person start this cool thing?
+[109.82 --> 111.36]  How can we learn more about it?
+[111.40 --> 113.18]  And then that's what you've set out to do.
+[113.24 --> 123.08]  And the first person that you speak with is Jeffrey Grozenbach, who is very successful with peepcode.com, very well known in the screencasting world.
+[123.08 --> 128.40]  Jeff has done a tremendous job over the last, I think he said he's four years old now, going into his fifth year.
+[128.88 --> 136.44]  Just done an awesome job with helping our community become educated on certain topics like Node, Rails, jQuery, even the command line featuring you.
+[136.64 --> 138.44]  So, you know, Jeff's done really well.
+[138.56 --> 144.08]  And I think he's got a unique vision for what peepcode is, and it needed to be told.
+[144.28 --> 150.20]  So Jeff came on board, sat down with me for 20 minutes, and this episode is what you're going to get from that.
+[150.20 --> 154.18]  Very cool. And I know that you've got a lot of other guests lined up too.
+[154.34 --> 160.68]  So we've got a lot of great interviews and talks from founders coming up in the future.
+[160.92 --> 163.10]  So let's all listen in.
+[163.66 --> 164.24]  Let's listen in.
+[164.76 --> 166.28]  We're here with Jeffrey Grozenbach.
+[166.42 --> 170.12]  Jeff is the founder, I guess I should probably say, senior visionary of Peepcode.
+[170.26 --> 175.46]  If you've been in and around the web development space over the past few years, you'll likely have heard of peepcode.com.
+[175.46 --> 181.42]  Jeff, let's start off with a quick intro of who you are and maybe even a proper introduction of Peepcode Screencasts.
+[182.08 --> 189.16]  Yeah, Peepcode Screencasts are about hour-long screencasts on all kinds of topics.
+[189.38 --> 196.80]  I try to hit things that are not very well documented yet, stuff that's not in book form yet, maybe even for a couple of years,
+[196.80 --> 204.46]  and try to really go in-depth but do it quickly because I know people have a limited amount of time
+[204.46 --> 213.10]  so they can just sit down and learn basically the most important things they need to know about jQuery, Ruby on Rails,
+[213.66 --> 218.14]  now Node, all kinds of things in about an hour.
+[218.14 --> 221.32]  Yeah, I know for me, learning Git was crucial.
+[221.44 --> 226.94]  I mean, that screencast you did on Git was just the best to get me as a front-end designer up and started on Git.
+[227.02 --> 228.52]  It was really important to me, for sure.
+[228.78 --> 230.34]  How many screencasts are you at right now?
+[231.98 --> 237.46]  You know, some I've retired because open source moves quickly and things get out of date.
+[237.46 --> 246.46]  But in my numbering scheme, I'm in about 48 screencasts, but I also have over a dozen PDF books.
+[246.94 --> 250.42]  And yeah, so it's somewhere around almost 60.
+[251.50 --> 253.02]  Gotcha. That's quite a bit. It's an achievement.
+[253.36 --> 255.62]  Well, I guess we probably should start off with a congratulations, too.
+[255.68 --> 258.08]  I mean, you just turned four years old. Peepcode Screencasts is now four.
+[258.46 --> 261.22]  Going into your fifth year, August 14th was your birthday. How does that make you feel?
+[261.22 --> 269.48]  Well, as with my normal chronological birthday, I usually forget it, and I forgot this one, too.
+[269.62 --> 271.76]  So yeah, I guess it happened a couple weeks ago.
+[272.12 --> 282.12]  And yeah, I mean, it's great to still be in business this long and definitely has required continuous adjustment
+[282.12 --> 290.24]  and reacting to technology, business things, all kinds of stuff, even just life changes.
+[290.24 --> 299.96]  So yeah, I feel it's great to be able to have been keeping it up this long and that people still support in the business and keep it going financially.
+[300.80 --> 301.80]  Yeah, I think that's awesome, really.
+[302.22 --> 305.84]  So I guess the unofficial title you reserve yourself is Senior Visionary.
+[306.64 --> 309.06]  Why did you choose that title and what's behind that?
+[309.56 --> 314.12]  Yeah, way back in like 99 or 2000, I was in college.
+[314.12 --> 322.92]  I flew down just for a day to Macworld Expo in San Francisco and met the guy who was the Senior Visionary of Lego.
+[323.56 --> 327.36]  I guess he just tries to think up of new products and stuff like that.
+[327.52 --> 329.02]  And so I always remember that.
+[329.34 --> 335.08]  So, you know, six or eight years later when I started my own company, I thought, well, I'll pick that.
+[335.18 --> 336.84]  I guess it's nice to have a fun title.
+[336.84 --> 343.50]  And usually, you know, kind of starts a conversation when I give my credit, not give my credit card, give my business card to people.
+[343.72 --> 346.00]  So, yeah, you know, it's a fun title.
+[346.12 --> 351.78]  And it helps me to think, to remember that, hey, I'm doing something that is new.
+[352.02 --> 356.50]  It's, you know, I'm trying to do things that other people aren't really doing.
+[356.50 --> 370.54]  And that is, you know, so it's a title and it's also kind of a goal of continue to be visionary, continue to think about how to move the business forward and do new things that people want.
+[371.54 --> 379.68]  I know for me as an entrepreneur, I know I like to have some fun titles that I apply to myself, but never one quite as fun as Senior Visionary.
+[379.68 --> 388.36]  But as an entrepreneur, I can't really say at some point in my life I had an on-off day where it was, you know, one day I wasn't an entrepreneur and the next day I was.
+[388.50 --> 392.66]  But my next question for you is, at what point in your life did you decide to become an entrepreneur?
+[393.92 --> 402.14]  Well, I tried a couple little things with – I mean, that is a good question because I think it's important to think of oneself as an entrepreneur.
+[402.50 --> 408.18]  You know, if you don't have goals, then you have no chance of even getting close to reaching them.
+[408.18 --> 420.60]  And so even back in like 2000 or 2001, I launched little software applications and, you know, they did okay, but then I just kind of abandoned them.
+[420.96 --> 433.52]  So I've definitely experimented with different things, but I didn't – you know, I guess I didn't really think of myself as an entrepreneur until I was actually making my full income from it.
+[433.52 --> 439.96]  And to be able to look at the bank and say, oh, I guess I'm putting money in there every month due to a business that I started.
+[440.10 --> 441.38]  So I guess I'm an entrepreneur.
+[442.00 --> 443.50]  I guess that was kind of my point too.
+[443.62 --> 445.30]  Like I wasn't really sure if I was or wasn't.
+[445.36 --> 451.30]  I guess that when you become profitable or you actually start making money like you just said, you sort of get to apply that title.
+[451.38 --> 454.10]  It's not more of a one day you weren't and the next day you are.
+[454.86 --> 457.44]  Let's dive deep into Peepco Screencast.
+[457.44 --> 459.78]  Let's talk about some of the first days of the idea.
+[459.94 --> 461.40]  Like where did the idea come from?
+[461.58 --> 463.70]  What got you to really come up with the idea?
+[464.02 --> 466.88]  Can you describe some of the first thoughts on the idea?
+[468.14 --> 468.34]  Yeah.
+[468.78 --> 479.28]  Initially, I had been doing some screencasts for clients just to show them how to use different software, you know, web apps that I'd written for them.
+[479.28 --> 484.24]  And they really loved being able to see things right there visually.
+[484.44 --> 488.60]  It was a lot easier than writing a multi-paragraph email or even a phone call.
+[489.14 --> 495.10]  And then it was, you know, on the wiki or something like that where they could go back and refer to it later.
+[495.44 --> 498.28]  So I knew that it was a great way to communicate.
+[499.02 --> 505.16]  And, you know, I think with the popularity of Ruby on Rails and yet things were still changing a lot.
+[505.26 --> 506.58]  There wasn't a lot of documentation.
+[506.58 --> 519.34]  I thought, well, you know, if I did a screencast that was approaching the usefulness of a PDF book or something like that, you know, would people buy it?
+[519.66 --> 535.04]  So, you know, honestly, my first couple ones, I'm surprised that they were as popular as they were as they were because I look back on them now and think, oh, you know, the ones I do now are so much better quality and my workflow is a lot better.
+[535.04 --> 542.90]  I read from a transcript instead of just kind of making up what I was saying on the fly and stuff like that.
+[543.04 --> 548.12]  But, you know, it was enough to just get it out there and see that people were interested in it.
+[548.80 --> 552.18]  So you pretty much adhere to the minimum viable product methodology.
+[552.18 --> 563.16]  Yeah. And, you know, for a lot of things, you don't even know what the full featured, you know, whizbang product even looks like or is going to be.
+[563.26 --> 567.20]  So it's kind of you discover it by doing it.
+[568.26 --> 574.90]  Can you would you mind sharing maybe what your initial investment monetarily might have been time and energy and maybe even some dollars?
+[574.90 --> 577.14]  Oh, it was really minimal.
+[577.72 --> 580.24]  I used a third party shopping cart.
+[580.44 --> 584.20]  I set up just a, you know, standard blog.
+[585.64 --> 588.92]  I I don't think I even.
+[590.00 --> 590.70]  Oh, yeah.
+[590.70 --> 591.54]  The software.
+[591.70 --> 599.54]  I actually just used QuickTime Pro and I just like pasted things into a QuickTime Pro timeline.
+[599.54 --> 601.54]  So it was like this, you know, $20 software.
+[602.22 --> 604.12]  It wasn't even a full video editor or anything.
+[604.12 --> 608.88]  So my initial software investment was very small.
+[609.02 --> 612.16]  I mean, I would say probably less than 100 bucks or something.
+[612.66 --> 621.66]  Now, as a web developer, I already had web servers to to work with and knew how to do at least, you know, set up my own blog and stuff like that.
+[622.06 --> 625.56]  And I was doing you know, I could do my own graphic design.
+[625.56 --> 634.26]  And so a lot of it and I think is a reason I'm still able to do it now is that I did a whole lot of the work up front.
+[634.26 --> 640.72]  So financially, yeah, I mean, I would say probably less than 100 bucks that I actually spent initially.
+[641.92 --> 642.28]  Wow.
+[642.30 --> 644.38]  That's encouraging, I guess, for a lot of entrepreneurs out there, huh?
+[644.96 --> 645.64]  Oh, definitely.
+[645.64 --> 657.74]  And, you know, I love gadgetry and software and I've spent easily tens of thousands, maybe $100,000 on software and hardware and all kinds of stuff since then.
+[657.98 --> 664.00]  But now I definitely didn't need any of that to just get a prototype out there.
+[664.00 --> 667.74]  So you had really no business partner at first.
+[667.84 --> 670.28]  Did you have a did you have a co-founder or a business partner starting out?
+[670.98 --> 672.04]  No, I didn't.
+[672.64 --> 681.06]  Even now, I've tried to think about, you know, what I would who I would partner up with because I can see the benefit of that.
+[681.30 --> 684.14]  But now I didn't have any kind of business partner.
+[684.30 --> 685.58]  I just did it on my own.
+[685.94 --> 687.78]  And I guess it goes either way.
+[687.78 --> 700.68]  I know Paul Graham has said that they won't fund any companies unless there are two partners, because if you can't convince someone else to to, you know, that you have a viable business, then maybe it's not a viable business.
+[700.86 --> 703.74]  Well, you know, I guess that makes sense if you're getting money from somebody else.
+[703.86 --> 714.48]  But if it's just your own money, well, a lot of the people I know who've tried to start businesses, they end up splitting because they don't get along with the co-founder or something like that.
+[714.48 --> 719.06]  So, you know, I guess there's as much benefit as there is risk in it.
+[719.38 --> 728.50]  And, you know, I guess it depends on the business and if you really need a co-founder and if you have somebody that you really get along with.
+[728.74 --> 733.46]  Well, you think looking back on the beginnings of Peepco, do you think you really needed one then?
+[734.32 --> 734.94]  Obviously not.
+[735.02 --> 740.24]  But I mean, if you do, they would have helped you to get there faster or do things differently or be more polished earlier.
+[740.80 --> 741.24]  Oh, yeah.
+[741.24 --> 743.92]  I think there are a ton of things that I could have gotten on faster.
+[743.92 --> 754.24]  For example, it was only within the last six months that I started a mailing list to where, you know, people who have opted in get a message once a month just saying, hey, here's our new products.
+[754.36 --> 756.84]  Well, you know, that's like three and a half years into the business.
+[756.94 --> 760.76]  And I only recently started that, which has been a great idea.
+[760.76 --> 772.60]  I, you know, highly recommend if you have a new product, you know, the very first line of code you should write is the form to say, give us your email address if you're interested in this product.
+[772.60 --> 778.34]  So, yeah, yeah, there are definitely things that would have been happened a lot faster.
+[778.52 --> 784.50]  But for me, I, you know, I'm not really one in life or business to to have regrets.
+[784.50 --> 790.26]  You learn along the way and it would have been great to learn some of these things even earlier.
+[790.26 --> 795.78]  But, you know, the business has been working.
+[796.28 --> 801.12]  And at whatever time I implement these different things, then I benefit from it then.
+[801.32 --> 803.86]  So, yeah, timeline would have been a little bit different.
+[803.86 --> 807.48]  But but but I made it without it.
+[807.48 --> 811.50]  So let's talk about the goals of Peepco when you first started out.
+[811.58 --> 814.22]  What were some of the early goals, initial goals as a founder?
+[814.50 --> 821.34]  Did you have like a list of 10 things you wanted to achieve or can you give us some idea about the initial goals that you wanted to achieve with Peepco Screencasts?
+[822.42 --> 831.84]  Originally, you know, it was kind of a crazy cycle just to give a little bit of background, because right out of right in and out of college, I worked for startups.
+[831.84 --> 842.60]  First, like a full Microsoft shop doing like a government related application and then different ones with open source.
+[842.80 --> 846.34]  I remember my first startup that I got working with Pearl.
+[846.54 --> 849.78]  I was so excited and then kind of got into Ruby later.
+[850.40 --> 857.48]  And so, you know, at one point when I started getting contracts with Ruby, it was like the most money I ever made in my life.
+[857.48 --> 862.22]  You know, I was getting paid 50, 70, 80 dollars an hour.
+[862.48 --> 865.00]  And, you know, that was that was huge.
+[865.04 --> 867.10]  It was way more than I'd ever been been making.
+[867.46 --> 872.20]  But for some reason, I had always said, hey, I want to I want to run my own business.
+[872.20 --> 876.88]  And so initially, I just had the goal of one day a week.
+[877.10 --> 887.66]  If I can have some side project that that allows me to freelance for four days and have one day doing this, doing my own thing, then I'll be happy.
+[887.78 --> 890.62]  So so my initial goal was was pretty small.
+[890.62 --> 902.32]  And, you know, I think that was reasonable because even now, a lot of people will hear what I do and they're like, what people pay for anything on the Internet or, you know, people pay for digital products.
+[902.66 --> 903.66]  Well, I mean, of course they do.
+[903.76 --> 906.86]  I mean, Amazon has just been saying that they're wide enough.
+[906.92 --> 913.96]  They put out sales, you know, revenue numbers, but, you know, that they're selling as many or more e-books than they are physical books.
+[913.96 --> 928.08]  So, yeah, people people pay for digital products, but but I personally didn't even have any idea of how much of how much that could support as far as being personal income.
+[929.58 --> 935.98]  At what point then, I guess, after you've met your goal, did you start to see profit and start to get excited about, wow, I can really make money at this.
+[936.04 --> 938.66]  This can grow into a bigger business and it can fully support me.
+[938.66 --> 951.04]  You know, it only took a couple of months to equal what I was making on on other freelancing, even just with that one or two days a week.
+[951.38 --> 957.78]  So, you know, I probably could have cut loose after even after like three months or something like that.
+[957.78 --> 965.70]  But, you know, other family and stuff didn't feel as comfortable with that.
+[965.70 --> 977.34]  And so and I think it was a much better idea, kind of have a little bit of runway, get going at full speed and then take off when it when it has proven itself a little bit more.
+[977.34 --> 985.56]  So I still I, you know, I went I quit all freelancing after about nine months, which, you know, it seems pretty quick to me.
+[985.64 --> 997.48]  But but I definitely, you know, I added on about an extra six months beyond what was directly viable just to make sure that, you know, that I had some money in the bank and.
+[998.84 --> 1003.56]  Could could not only just pay my salary, but have a little bit of a profit, too.
+[1004.24 --> 1005.72]  So what are your thoughts on piracy?
+[1005.72 --> 1008.76]  How does that impact people being a digital product is downloadable?
+[1008.86 --> 1011.30]  It can be shared, you know, BitTorrent and all that good stuff.
+[1011.46 --> 1013.76]  How does that impact people and what are your feelings on piracy?
+[1016.18 --> 1019.02]  It's definitely something that I was aware of early on.
+[1019.30 --> 1022.12]  And initially, initially, it was a little annoying.
+[1022.72 --> 1024.54]  Even now, I guess it's somewhat annoying.
+[1024.68 --> 1028.58]  There are quite a few search terms that you can search for.
+[1028.58 --> 1036.50]  I think maybe even if you just search for peep code, there'll be like BitTorrent links on the very first page of Google or something like that.
+[1036.94 --> 1043.60]  So, you know, it'd be nice if Google would help me out a little bit more and not publish that kind of stuff on the very first page.
+[1043.60 --> 1062.36]  But on the other hand, I've talked to a bunch of people who said, hey, I found your stuff on BitTorrent first or I, you know, or I knew it was a paid product, but I didn't want to pay to just try it out.
+[1062.36 --> 1066.56]  So I went and kind of treated that as a free trial or something like that.
+[1066.64 --> 1068.32]  And then I came in and paid for it.
+[1068.42 --> 1072.46]  So, you know, personally, I think it's down to a couple of things.
+[1072.56 --> 1081.90]  It's a fact of being on the Internet and selling a digital product that people are going to have it on different sharing sites like that.
+[1083.00 --> 1086.70]  And I don't really feel like it's impacted my revenue that much.
+[1086.70 --> 1092.48]  It would be hard to calculate it, so I don't really have any way to verify that.
+[1092.78 --> 1102.58]  But, you know, I guess I feel like a lot of the people who do download from a different site like that probably wouldn't be people who would buy it anyway.
+[1103.06 --> 1107.00]  Or if they do, then maybe they see, hey, this is great stuff.
+[1107.00 --> 1107.48]  It's useful.
+[1107.48 --> 1112.62]  I'm going to go pay, you know, buy one episode or buy a subscription or something like that.
+[1112.62 --> 1116.56]  So, yeah, I actually I hired a.
+[1117.94 --> 1126.56]  What talking about, you know, having a business partner, stuff like that, the way I've kind of filled that in for myself is working with a lot of different contractors.
+[1126.56 --> 1138.80]  So I worked with a business consultant for a couple of months, six months or something where every other week or something, I would go over and talk to her for an hour about whatever issues I was thinking about.
+[1139.02 --> 1141.00]  And that that was really helpful.
+[1141.00 --> 1148.00]  But one thing that kept coming up is is she thought, well, you should put a lot more energy trying to cut down on piracy.
+[1149.00 --> 1151.00]  And, you know, that should be a really big priority.
+[1151.92 --> 1155.66]  And I just didn't really see it as being that important to put energy into.
+[1155.84 --> 1158.26]  I mean, there's no way you can stop it.
+[1158.26 --> 1167.26]  You know, I think at least for me, I'm never going to put any kind of DRM on there because I know people, you know, I hate buying.
+[1168.16 --> 1169.96]  I don't buy products if they have DRM.
+[1170.18 --> 1172.42]  And so I don't want to sell one that has it.
+[1172.70 --> 1176.34]  And I know people want to use use the product in different ways.
+[1176.34 --> 1183.78]  You know, people reencode it to be on their PSP or whatever or their different phones that I don't have a copy of.
+[1184.00 --> 1186.56]  And I want that to be able to happen.
+[1187.10 --> 1192.26]  So piracy, I mean, it's out there, but but I don't really worry about it.
+[1192.26 --> 1196.84]  I wouldn't even I wouldn't even spend time trying to cut down on it.
+[1197.58 --> 1205.84]  Just do your business, make a good product and make it something that people are willing to want to find useful and want to come pay for.
+[1206.16 --> 1207.08]  I have to agree, too.
+[1207.12 --> 1211.46]  As a user of Pico Screencast, I know that I enjoy the fact that there's no DRM on there.
+[1211.54 --> 1216.24]  And I can say that it's probably something we can leverage back to our community to coming from open source and a lot of stuff you do.
+[1216.36 --> 1219.90]  I mean, what you do is very, very useful and you put a lot of energy into it.
+[1219.90 --> 1230.54]  And I think as a respectful community, you know, I would always if I even if I had access to a repository of Pico Screencast, I would still go and purchase them on my own because, you know, I want to support you in your business.
+[1230.54 --> 1241.20]  And you do a lot of fun stuff there that, you know, just truly needs to be paid for because I think you do a fantastic job, which kind of leads me into my next question, which is, you know, their Pico Screencast is super, super polished.
+[1241.28 --> 1245.06]  In my opinion, some of the most highest quality screencasts available to us devs and alpha geeks out there.
+[1245.06 --> 1251.46]  So the question I have for you on that riff is what kind of fine tuning and tweaking have you had to do over time to get it to where it is now?
+[1251.52 --> 1254.94]  Like you had mentioned earlier, you went from QuickTime Pro to something else.
+[1255.00 --> 1257.34]  What was some of the process in really polishing the brand?
+[1257.34 --> 1274.86]  Um, on one minor thing on the other, I think people underestimate the the both the good and good heartedness of people and the the real desire of people to support a good product.
+[1274.86 --> 1284.30]  You know, I go to different restaurants and if it's a restaurant I really like, I try to tip very well and I have, um, you know, I'm into cycling.
+[1284.30 --> 1296.36]  I try to buy stuff from my local bike shop, even if I know that I can get it massively cheaper online because usually I'll go to the bike shop and I'll get fantastic advice from free for free from these people.
+[1296.36 --> 1302.56]  And so if I pay a little bit more for a part, I've gotten a ton of great useful information from them.
+[1302.64 --> 1307.90]  So I, you know, I think people underestimate that part of of people on the Internet or wherever.
+[1308.22 --> 1311.86]  And, uh, you know, that can definitely make a difference in a business.
+[1312.80 --> 1319.66]  Now, as far as tweaks over time, um, you know, there's a lot of it.
+[1320.12 --> 1322.80]  Part of it just came up with different needs.
+[1322.80 --> 1332.84]  Of course, it's a little hackish to just be pasting clips into a, um, you know, into a little video, uh, not even a full video editor.
+[1332.84 --> 1335.22]  So I needed a full featured video editor.
+[1335.38 --> 1336.98]  So I ended up getting that.
+[1337.10 --> 1345.24]  I ended up, uh, seeing a lot of different things that people are doing on TV or, uh, you know, animations and stuff like that.
+[1345.24 --> 1346.28]  So I was like, oh, okay.
+[1346.28 --> 1352.60]  I need to go learn Adobe After Effects and figure out how to do some animated titles and diagrams and stuff like that.
+[1352.60 --> 1354.08]  So that came in.
+[1354.18 --> 1374.56]  So a lot of it was just different, um, different software that I, I felt like when I wanted to use it to distinguish myself, present, uh, my product as being very high quality and very polished and, and, and also being more useful or educational by being able to bring in animation where it was relevant.
+[1374.56 --> 1384.92]  But on the business side, um, you know, I definitely think working with a good, um, good business advisor is helpful.
+[1385.64 --> 1401.06]  Uh, finding a really good, I mean, this ended up being kind of a, a big list, but, um, you know, I found a really good lawyer who, uh, knows a lot about the internet and digital businesses and stuff like that.
+[1401.06 --> 1405.28]  So a lot of the tweaking, but, but the first lawyer I worked with knew nothing of it.
+[1405.28 --> 1413.46]  You know, we, we spoke for a couple hours and yeah, it was our, again, about piracy and stuff like that, that didn't really matter.
+[1413.46 --> 1418.18]  So a lot of the tweaking I think is just, you know, keeping up high standards.
+[1418.36 --> 1422.20]  If something's not working for you, try to improve it, try to make it better.
+[1422.46 --> 1433.94]  Um, try to find somebody who you can consult with, who is going to do a better job, uh, than the, maybe the people that you're working with, which maybe is a benefit of not having a co-founder.
+[1433.94 --> 1447.66]  If you, if you, if you don't, haven't split the business with someone, then you're free to just keep moving on until you find different subcontractors and stuff like that, who are going to do the best job for you and, and help with that.
+[1448.38 --> 1461.06]  I guess that's a, that is a good point that if you don't have a co-founder, you can sort of sit back and not be so anxious about some of these decisions and not even be as pressured and still take it back to your home base and, you know, mull over it and think about it.
+[1461.06 --> 1463.06]  Does this really impact my community the right way?
+[1463.14 --> 1472.98]  And I think, you know, going back to my impression on Peepco Screencast and you in general is that, you know, I think you have a true heart for our community and the devs and the alpha geeks out there.
+[1473.06 --> 1481.58]  I think that's another big reason why it's been so successful, but, you know, just kind of having that control, not having to leverage a co-founder who may have a completely different opinion.
+[1482.04 --> 1485.08]  That, uh, it's certainly probably been a very good thing for you.
+[1485.64 --> 1486.04]  Yeah.
+[1486.04 --> 1492.90]  And I mean, if you find somebody who, who you do really, uh, work well with and that's great, but, uh, yeah, it goes either way.
+[1493.38 --> 1501.10]  So Peepcode, it's been around for five, almost five years now coming in our fifth year right now as it's, uh, it's gone international, I guess.
+[1501.10 --> 1506.78]  And in some sense, because we're on the web, uh, have you felt any pressure to, to make Peepcode available in other languages?
+[1506.78 --> 1509.00]  Uh, you know, localized anyway?
+[1509.00 --> 1515.08]  Yeah, I tried that a little bit and it's a rough situation, especially for a small company.
+[1515.98 --> 1523.50]  You know, it's, I'm still the only full-time employee, although I do have, uh, regular, a couple of assistants and other consultants and stuff.
+[1523.50 --> 1530.56]  And with the, you know, working with video, which is unfortunately, uh, makes it more difficult.
+[1530.88 --> 1542.56]  Um, I tried with, when I was doing PDFs to translate a couple, but a lot of programming is so English centered that if you publish in English, then people are going to buy it.
+[1542.56 --> 1550.08]  And, you know, even if that's not their first language, because they're used to reading all kinds of blog posts and other documentation in English.
+[1550.08 --> 1557.32]  And then if you do publish in a different language later, then it, you know, it's kind of too late.
+[1557.32 --> 1566.82]  So you really have to have it coordinated so that all the translations are there almost simultaneously to really get a good measurement of how much benefit is it is to people.
+[1568.14 --> 1577.98]  The other thing is, you know, with video, as I've upped the post-production and I'm doing a lot of different, uh, tips and stuff that show up on the screen.
+[1577.98 --> 1580.44]  Well, that would need to be translated.
+[1581.04 --> 1590.12]  And right now it's unfortunately not automated enough to, to be able to just plug in some, uh, translation file and re-render the entire video.
+[1590.46 --> 1600.84]  So at least for the moment, I'd love to do that sometime, but, uh, but right now it's, it's unfortunately been a little bit more difficult.
+[1600.84 --> 1610.74]  Well, a good thing though, is, you know, I, I love to have competitors or, you know, maybe they're, they're not competitors, just other, other people doing similar things.
+[1610.74 --> 1621.74]  So I know my friend, Fabio Akita in Brazil, he started selling some screencasts and he's just doing it from scratch in, uh, Portuguese and selling them there.
+[1621.74 --> 1630.50]  So, you know, that may be an opportunity for people in different countries to actually just, just make fresh screencasts in, uh, in whether, whatever different languages.
+[1630.88 --> 1631.88]  Yeah, it sounds awesome.
+[1631.94 --> 1639.00]  I think maybe even they can probably even leverage it for some support or maybe some consulting or just being a buddy in the community.
+[1639.48 --> 1639.92]  Exactly.
+[1639.92 --> 1643.82]  So let's, uh, let's move on to the importance of branding.
+[1643.94 --> 1646.06]  I know that, uh, I love the brand of Peepcode.
+[1646.18 --> 1655.04]  I think early on, uh, you know, with, uh, with your t-shirts, you had female versions of them because we actually do have some females in our, in our community, believe it or not.
+[1655.04 --> 1656.86]  But, uh, they really love the pink.
+[1657.04 --> 1661.34]  What was the importance of branding for you in terms of Peepcode and how you put it out?
+[1662.14 --> 1664.94]  Uh, you know, I brainstormed a bunch of different ideas.
+[1665.06 --> 1669.60]  I guess if I had known that it was going to take off, I might've been a little more conservative.
+[1669.60 --> 1672.40]  About exactly how I did it.
+[1672.52 --> 1681.72]  But, um, yeah, of all the different ideas, Peepcode seemed to be a good word that rolls off the tongue and, uh, you know, kind of a scripty font.
+[1681.72 --> 1691.68]  I've actually kind of gone away from the pink because some people said, oh, I arrived at your site and I saw pink and I immediately thought it was a porn site.
+[1691.80 --> 1697.46]  Well, I mean, come on, people can't, pink is no longer in the spectrum and we can't use pink.
+[1697.46 --> 1706.46]  But, um, so mostly I've gone more to just gray scale for the logo itself and, uh, then other colors for individual screencasts.
+[1707.04 --> 1711.20]  But I do think, you know, have, have something, have a word that's fun to say.
+[1711.20 --> 1720.20]  I know even like power book, they did a lot of research to find the different syllables that were caused happy thoughts in people's heads or something like that.
+[1720.20 --> 1724.02]  And, and the P sound and the B sound were good.
+[1724.10 --> 1726.54]  And I, maybe even the K like, uh, Kodak.
+[1726.54 --> 1739.32]  And so I, I, I mean, I didn't do specific research on all those things, but, uh, you know, something short, easy to say, you know, uh, works well on a t-shirt or whatever.
+[1739.46 --> 1745.44]  And now there's so many good typefaces, you know, just go find some typeface nobody else is really using.
+[1745.44 --> 1747.88]  And, um, and that could be it.
+[1747.88 --> 1752.64]  Or maybe you hire somebody to, to make a good icon or a logo or something like that.
+[1752.64 --> 1754.46]  You know, I, I read a blog post.
+[1754.54 --> 1757.28]  That's actually your first, your first blog post at the Pupco blog.
+[1757.34 --> 1759.30]  It was called a serviceable business card.
+[1759.38 --> 1760.82]  Now this business card is very unique.
+[1760.82 --> 1767.98]  And if you haven't read the article, I encourage you to go to pupco.com forward slash blog and check it out, go to the archives and pull it up.
+[1767.98 --> 1775.78]  But can you riff on the business card a bit here and kind of talk about what that did for you in terms of, I guess, branding, so to speak?
+[1776.56 --> 1776.96]  Yeah.
+[1777.06 --> 1779.80]  Putting together a business card was always a fun experiment.
+[1779.80 --> 1794.80]  Having a little desire to do some graphic design myself, it was always an opportunity to kind of start from scratch and have some, some, uh, constraints that you don't otherwise have a specific size and, and two sides.
+[1795.46 --> 1803.94]  So, you know, with the general webpage, you have basically an endless canvas and it's just not quite the same.
+[1803.94 --> 1812.42]  So I experimented with different things, having something where the text kind of wrapped all the way around or, or like we've already said, you know, put an interesting title on there.
+[1812.42 --> 1823.66]  But eventually I had been doing a little bit of letterpress printing, even on a big old, uh, press that was restored here, uh, you know, school near Seattle.
+[1823.66 --> 1829.92]  And I thought, wow, it'd be fun to have something a little bit more physical, especially having completely digital product.
+[1829.92 --> 1837.14]  That's not physical to kind of counteract that with a very physical business card to hand out.
+[1837.14 --> 1850.40]  Because I usually, I only hand out about two or three business cards a month, just kind of the, it's most people I meet either already know of peep code or can easily get to it.
+[1850.40 --> 1858.26]  And then occasionally when I'll meet somebody who's, you know, not, doesn't know about it at all, then I'll, I'll hand out a business card.
+[1858.26 --> 1862.64]  So I went with this place in New York city that actually designed it.
+[1862.64 --> 1870.02]  And after a couple rounds back and forth, uh, came up with this really dark black thick paper.
+[1870.02 --> 1878.76]  I mean, you hold it and it's like, uh, about four or five times thicker than the thickest baseball, you know, premium pro baseball card I've ever held.
+[1879.16 --> 1885.48]  And, you know, it's got the bite in it there from the, the, uh, letterpress and a little metallic ink and stuff like that.
+[1885.48 --> 1893.86]  So it, you know, it's fun because I was able to blog about it and often people will come and ask me about it because they knew it's no, it's this kind of different thing.
+[1894.50 --> 1898.50]  The only, uh, downside is that I did meet someone one time.
+[1898.50 --> 1899.48]  I gave them my card.
+[1899.60 --> 1901.18]  They, they didn't know about peep code at all.
+[1901.18 --> 1907.46]  So, you know, I gave my card and they said, well, this is the second most interesting business card I've ever seen.
+[1907.46 --> 1908.78]  I thought, well, what was the first?
+[1908.78 --> 1914.94]  And he said, the first, the best business card I've ever seen had a seeds in it and you put water on it.
+[1914.94 --> 1920.56]  And over a course of a couple of weeks, it would grow like a chia pet into the logo of the company.
+[1921.18 --> 1923.22]  So that's quite a high standard.
+[1923.34 --> 1925.38]  I'm going to have to think about it if I can improve on that.
+[1925.54 --> 1925.90]  Yeah.
+[1925.94 --> 1935.76]  I really enjoyed the, the reactions in the wild that you mentioned that blog article you just talked about where you were actually able to even to use it for, you know, a currency that somebody had actually given you three bucks.
+[1935.76 --> 1937.24]  Instead, you'd, you'd borrowed some fare.
+[1937.24 --> 1942.82]  I can't recall the exact story, but something along the lines that was just so impressive that, you know, they, they almost didn't even want to accept it.
+[1942.82 --> 1945.70]  They felt like you had given them something like the special prize.
+[1946.24 --> 1946.42]  Yeah.
+[1946.54 --> 1957.00]  And I mean, to me, what that underscores is I don't really think I'm that much of an ostentatious person, but if you're going to have a business, you're going to promote yourself, try to make a scene somehow.
+[1957.00 --> 1963.64]  I mean, a lot of people just put a provocative blog post or something or, or count on anger.
+[1963.64 --> 1973.64]  I mean, there are a lot of companies that will, will get people angry about something and that's a way to kind of get loyalty to their business is this shared anger against someone else.
+[1973.74 --> 1975.18]  And I don't want that.
+[1975.18 --> 1986.30]  I want to have something, I want to have something positive where people can, uh, you know, have a little bit more, put, put something, you know, there's enough negative out there in the world.
+[1986.54 --> 1988.18]  Let's do something positive instead.
+[1988.44 --> 1991.86]  But that doesn't mean it has to be, uh, uninspired.
+[1992.12 --> 1998.28]  So getting out, getting something out there that's different, that's, uh, that gets people talking.
+[1998.36 --> 2001.08]  I mean, that's, that's what promotion marketing is all about.
+[2001.08 --> 2015.76]  Uh, last question for you in a recent blog article, you mentioned that, uh, you interviewed a brain researcher who observed that the mind is a little less active when the body is kind of in a very sedentary state where it's kind of, it's still a low heartbeat kind of, uh, so to speak.
+[2015.90 --> 2023.58]  What are your thoughts for entrepreneurs that overwork themselves and just forget to maintain a, a healthy body or even a healthy lifestyle?
+[2024.20 --> 2026.04]  I think it's a great idea for a couple of reasons.
+[2026.04 --> 2037.78]  I mean, Zed Shah had a great post on a very specific things that he was doing for health and different ailments he'd had throughout, uh, his programming career to excruciating detail.
+[2038.22 --> 2041.84]  But I, I definitely have noticed a huge difference.
+[2041.98 --> 2054.46]  If I, when I've personally taken the advice of that brain researcher now, I don't have a treadmill, uh, mounted to my, uh, desk so that I can actually walk while I'm working on a program.
+[2054.46 --> 2057.46]  But I've started doing like, you know, a little bit more serious bicycling.
+[2058.20 --> 2062.12]  I'm trying to work up for a century, you know, a hundred miles, 160 kilometers.
+[2062.86 --> 2074.24]  Um, so at least every other day I'm out there on a bike for, you know, maybe a hour and a half, at least, uh, up and downhills, you know, trying to get, get out there really hard.
+[2074.24 --> 2076.36]  And it's been amazing what that's done.
+[2076.42 --> 2083.76]  Just my, my mood, you get out there, you kind of have a clear spot to where you don't have to think about work or business or whatever.
+[2084.16 --> 2091.20]  And then when you come back, your, your brain is a lot fresher and you're able to think about different things.
+[2091.30 --> 2093.54]  And, uh, and I've noticed a huge difference.
+[2093.54 --> 2104.24]  I'll even do something where given the fact that I work from a little home office and don't have a, another office often I'm out and around around at different coffee shops.
+[2104.24 --> 2105.78]  So I'll hop on my bike.
+[2105.82 --> 2108.72]  I'll ride 15 minutes off to one place.
+[2108.72 --> 2111.80]  I'll work for three hours or something like that.
+[2111.80 --> 2115.28]  Then I'll hop on a bike, work, you know, bike out to another place.
+[2115.28 --> 2131.02]  And I do think it really helps, uh, on, on multiple levels, just, you know, get the blood flowing, give yourself a break and, uh, and, and then, um, you know, get, get the calories burning and stuff like that.
+[2131.02 --> 2135.42]  So, uh, that's, that's definitely, I felt like that's made a huge difference in my life.
+[2135.42 --> 2145.22]  Uh, although I've been pretty active continually, but, uh, even amping that up a little bit within the next, the last, uh, six months or so.
+[2145.58 --> 2147.36]  I have to echo your thoughts on that too.
+[2147.40 --> 2153.10]  I know that, um, a healthy body certainly, you know, leads you to have a more healthier mind for, for one thing.
+[2153.10 --> 2162.70]  And then also having those breaks in your day, getting out there, seeing the world, you know, sometimes you even get to see new, fresh design that you wouldn't have seen by going and visiting local retailers.
+[2162.70 --> 2165.16]  Plus it's just, you know, embracing localized community.
+[2165.28 --> 2169.02]  Like you said, with biking, you go and buy a bike, you know, buy your parts from local bike shops.
+[2169.10 --> 2175.08]  And that's just more of that, uh, of that Jeff we talked about earlier, who just really embraces his community and gives back and loves.
+[2175.28 --> 2175.84]  That's awesome.
+[2176.58 --> 2178.48]  But, uh, Jeff, that's all the questions I have for you.
+[2178.54 --> 2185.96]  This is the first episode of this podcast and I'm, it's more than an honor that you could think of to have you on and to have you riff about Peep Code and your success.
+[2185.96 --> 2188.16]  And I really appreciate you taking the time to come on the show.
+[2188.58 --> 2189.12]  Thanks a lot.
+[2189.12 --> 2194.60]  It's an honor to be on the first one and, uh, good luck to you in keeping, keeping that going and on your own business endeavors.
+[2195.00 --> 2195.32]  Awesome.
+[2195.42 --> 2195.84]  Thanks Jeff.
+[2195.84 --> 2225.82]  Thank you.

Henk Rogers The Tetris Company_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,241 @@
+**Adam Stacoviak:** I'm here with Henk Rogers, serial entrepreneur, game designer turned entrepreneur. He is the founder of Blue Planet Software, as well as the Tetris Company, which is most known for bringing the worldwide phenomenon known as Tetris to the world. It's by far one of the most universally played video games of all time... So I'm proud to introduce you guys to Henk Rogers. Please say hello.
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Hello!
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** So Henk you've had quite the journey on this road, not just so much from Tetris, but all the companies you've founded, and your road into philanthropy and what you're doing now, but can you give us, for the listeners who maybe just know Tetris' story but don't so much know Henk's story - can you give us an idea of your journey and where it started, and what you've done over the last 20 years?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Okay. I'm originally from Holland, 11 years in Holland, 8 years in New York City. I went to \[01:20\] Stuyvesant High School in New York City, late '60s, early '70s, and that's where I first got to touch a computer. My next stint was in Hawaii. I was here for four years, three of which I spent attending the University of Hawaii, majoring in computer science, and Dungeons and Dragons... Then I moved to Japan, 18 years in Japan. I started my first company and wrote the first role-playing game in Japan in 1983. So I was a game designer/programmer; I did pretty much everything back then.
+
+Then I switched my role from being a programmer/game designer to being a publisher, and I used to travel the world looking for games. One of the games that I've found on one of my trips was a game called Tetris at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas... And I was attached to this game, I kept coming back and playing it, and I've been after Tetris and the rights to Tetris ever since. And so when the big opportunity came, which is 1995, basically all the rights to Tetris were reverting back to the author of Tetris, Alexey Pajitnov, he had asked me to help him and be his partner, and I decided to go for it, and I've been his partner ever since. Still am today. And we've formed what is called the Tetris Company.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** What does this partnership with Alexey, how has that changed your life, I guess? ...besides, obviously, what you've just said with Tetris. I mean, how has it finally changed your life?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Well, I went from, trying to design my own games to working on Tetris, because I thought that was the bigger play. And sure enough, compared to, say, another game, Tetris sort of outperforms it 10x. Now, I've contributed a lot to Tetris over the years in terms of game design, and that's sort of what I do today. Even today, I'm working on improving the design and doing new things with Tetris.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Can you describe some of the first moments of you stumbling onto Tetris, where you were like "Wow, this is the best thing in the world"? What were your first thoughts about the game, and did it even occur to you that it would get you to where you are today?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** No, the answer to that is no. I found it at the Consumer Electronics Show, I played it, and I thought, "Okay..." I mean, it looked really rudimentary compared to all the other games that were at the trade show, even in 1987. And I went away, and I came back, and I played it a little bit more, and I went away, and I came back a little bit more... And the fifth time I realized I was hooked on this game.
+
+\[04:09\] And no other game does that to you at the Consumer Electronics Show. You've got to sort of make up your mind about whether a game is interesting by playing it for 10 seconds or 15 seconds... And that's just not enough time for most games to really get the gist of the game. But in Tetris, you could get it. And I did. And so I was hooked.
+
+At that time, I was the president of the company. The name of my company in Japan was Bulletproof Software. And I made all the decisions, ran the spreadsheets, and so I could negotiate at the Consumer Electronics Show to try to get titles, and I started that path with Tetris.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** But what time did Blue Planet Software come into play to supersede your original company, Bulletproof Software?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** It's the end of '95. You know, I created a company to be the partner and the managing company for Tetris in 19-- it's right around new year's of 1995-1996. So that's when we created Blue Planet Software. And I'd always been BPS, so I liked the mnemonic of BPS, and I had a really good logo, which I didn't use... And I thought, setting up a company in the US, I'd call it BPS, because everybody knew me as being somebody from BPS. But we tried to make it a little bit more new age. And Blue Planet Software, the concept is you start in Hawaii, and then you get a global view, you kind of back off the planet and look at the planet from above Hawaii - it's pretty much a blue planet. So it's a worldview starting in Hawaii.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** It's kind of funny too how your first tracks into this business world/gaming world was role-playing... And it's not uncommon to actually look at your life and see it very much like a role-playing game. You invented games, you helped obviously mold and shape Tetris to what it is today, created companies to support it and license it... You'd gone to Russia, negotiated contracts, even from what I understand deal with the KGB at some point... Tell us a little bit about the journey of creating the companies to support Tetris and the licensing models. What were some of the earlier thoughts about truly making Tetris I guess the culture-changing game that it is today?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Well, prior to the formation of the Tetris Company, the Soviet Ministry of Software, Elektronorgtechnica had licensed Tetris to a bunch of different companies: Sega, Nintendo, Bulletproof Software, Mirrorsoft... All these different companies, and without really having a guideline as to what the product should do or how it should work. As a result, they were all different, and not compatible. I mean, there'd be fundamental differences. Like if you had a car where the brake is on the right, and the gas pedal is on the left side. Obviously, if you rented that car, a lot of people would have accidents. Well, in the case of Tetris, it made the game very hard to play for people switching platforms.
+
+The biggest difference was in Japan, Nintendo was a huge hit with Gameboy, and I had their same user interface with the Nintendo 8-bit. But Sega had a huge hit with Tetris as a \[unintelligible 00:07:18.11\] and they had a completely different way of handling the way the blocks fell, and the way they locked down, and the way they rotated... They were all different. And so my first job when I formed the Tetris Company was to create a guideline. And we have a guideline today that basically everybody has to conform to, so that at least the gas pedal is on the right, the brake's on the left, and all those things are standardized, so people can go from platform to platform and play Tetris.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** So let's talk about some of the roadblocks you might have faced, I guess, in doing this journey, creating the Tetris Company, licensing Tetris, and forming this basic game and mechanics. What are some of the biggest brick walls that you can think of, that are most notable to talk about?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** \[08:09\] Well, the earliest, biggest brick wall was that Alexey in 1993 asked me to help him. And the Soviet government was totally going to try to rip them off. Well, it's the leftover of the Soviet government. All these ministries became private companies. How the hell that happens? Nobody knows. But they became private companies, and then they claim rights. I mean, how did the guy who owned the oil company then get to own the oil company? Nobody knows. Well, it was that way with the software. And Alexey said they were going to claim that he didn't have any rights. And sure enough, come 1995, Nintendo needed to renew their rights, because all contracts ended 1995. And the Russians came out and said, "You know what - Alexey has no rights. He never did. It was work for hire. It was the Soviet Union. People didn't have any copyright rights, authorship rights." And so everything that Alexey said was going to happen, was actually happening.
+
+So I went to bat for Alexey, I said -- I remember being in a meeting with ElOrg's lawyers, and Nintendo's lawyers, and it was just me, and I said, "Gentlemen, I'm probably the only one in this room not a lawyer, but I can see at some point there's going to be a jury, and they're gonna have to decide whether it's the Ministry of Software of the defunct Soviet Union, or the author of the game who actually owns the rights to Tetris. I'm betting on the author."
+
+So from there -- they were going to give us 20%, and we were going to give them 20%. We were very far apart. A year later, we came together, in fact in Moscow, and we ended up negotiating seriously, and we came up with the Tetris Company.
+
+The deal for me was that the all of the copyright and trademark registrations in I don't know how many countries were in the name of Elektronorgtechnica, which would mean that I'd have to go country by country and fight for the rights to get these trademarks, and get the copyrights back. And that was their deal with Nintendo, by the way. When they did a deal with Nintendo, they said "Nintendo has to, in their name, register the copyright and trademark in all these countries", which they did. So I was kind of in a quarter, but we got a pretty decent deal.
+
+So the Tetris Company at that time was a 50/50 company between Blue Planet Software, and Elektronorgtechnica, ElOrg, and Blue Planet Software became the exclusive agent of the Tetris Company. So we did all the work, which - I mean, those guys in Moscow, they had no idea, so they couldn't do any of the work anyway.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** What was the concern at that point? That they just want the rights to the game because they cared about it so much, or was it just a financial battle for them?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** For them - these were communist all of a sudden without a communist country. And so their concept was "People don't have these rights." They didn't believe that copyright or trademark belonged to people. It belonged to THE people. And all sudden - okay, so how the hell does it go from the people to being them? That's kind of weird, you know?
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Right...
+
+**Henk Rogers:** So there was an ideological difference, and they thought they could walk away with it like the guy walking away with the oil company. They could walk away the whole Tetris. And I said, "No, that's not the way it's gonna go down." And we fought, and negotiated, and finally came up with an agreement.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** \[12:02\] How long did this all take? Was it a year or so, or was it a couple months?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Well, from the time of the previous conversation with all the lawyers in the room to when we actually formed the company is about - it's almost a year. I think I made it in February at Nintendo in Redmond for that prior meeting where we walked away, and we couldn't agree to anything. And then I ended up in Moscow in the very beginning of 1996, like right around that new year's cusp, and we were seriously negotiating, because Nintendo was publishing without a license. They weren't going to continue publishing because they didn't have a license, and this was bad for Tetris all around.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** And so at what point then did Blue Planet Software actually get a hold of Tetris? And when that happened, what were some of the fundamental changes that actually catapulted it into the next stages of having the gaming mechanics down, and the licensing managed? At what point did that happen for Blue Planet Software?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** So it happened right at the beginning of 1996.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** And what was the very first publisher, I guess, of the next version?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Well, we rolled over Nintendo. We gave them -- sort of grandfathered Nintendo with their existing product. But who was the first licensee? Gosh, I can't even remember.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** How many have there been?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Probably somewhere around 50-60 licensees.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** And they all created their own different versions, and part of the license agreement is that they can actually inject characters, or put their own little twist on Tetris, but the basic mechanics have to stay the same?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Yeah. So basically, we give them a guideline, and we maintain approval rights. So we approve a final product. So they send us -- I mean, they can talk to us, but we don't approve documents, or prototypes... It's actually got to be a working game before we approve it. So basically, what we say is "Follow the guideline, add whatever you want to add to it. That's wide open. If you want to add your characters to it, that's fine. Those are your characters. So you can add Mickey Mouse or Mario. That's all fine. We don't claim those characters. All we claim is any change you make to the game that improves the game becomes part of the IP."
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** The IP that you hold, or the IP that they hold?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** The IP that we hold. That's part of the basic Tetris IP that we licensed to all licensees. So basically, if Nintendo improves something about the Tetris game, not only do we get to use it, but all of our licensees get to use it. Otherwise it gets so complicated, saying "Oh, this is not invented here", and so on and so forth. We just don't want to have that happen. And ultimately, it's to the benefit of all licensees, if anything that anybody invents, everybody gets to use.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** And so how has the game of Tetris really changed over time? I mean, I can just sit back -- I'm 31 years old, about to turn 32. The first time I played it was on the very first Nintendo platform. I can remember that. I can't remember if I actually had a couple Gameboys or not, but I know I played it on that platform. How has it changed over time, and how has it impacted our culture?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Yeah. So if you go back to the very original Tetris, which Alexey created in the Electronica 60, which is a PDP-11 rip-off, it only counted the tetraminoes that fell into the screen. Each time one fell into the screen, you got points. And if you dropped it, like a hard drop - if you dropped it from the top of the screen, you'd get 19 points. If you dropped it from one line down, you'd get 18, 17, 16, and so on. So the higher up you dropped it you'd get more points.
+
+\[16:02\] And then there was a next queue; just a single next block. And that that next block, if you turned it off, you'd get an extra five points per block. So it behooved you to keep the next block turned off. And that's how the game was. There was no counting lines, or bonuses for clearing more lines... That's one of the things that I invented in my first product in Japan, which was for the 8-bit Nintendo. I added single, double, triple Tetris, where you get bonus points for clearing multiple lines at the same time. And the reason I added that is because the lower levels... You know, all players had to play through the lower levels; the slower levels, I should say. And when you play through the slower level, that kind of gets boring; it doesn't get exciting until you get to the higher level.
+
+So I wanted to give players something to do at the lower level, and I did that by creating this new thing where you actually had to create the pipe somewhere, to make a Tetris. And when you create the pipe to make a Tetris, your play field, or the place where you can land your blocks actually goes from 10-wide to 9-wide, which gives you a little bit extra dilemma. And so it makes the game a little bit more exciting by giving you this extra thing to think about, of having to squeeze all your blocks.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** What exactly is a Tetris then? Is it just completing a line?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** No, a Tetris is clearing four lines at a time.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Four lines at a time. Okay. So I guess this is some of the evolution of the game, too. How many people have contributed? How have a licensees contributed to this game?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Well, if you look at at Sega and Nintendo, if you look at the way the keyboard was laid out on the PC, your right hand is on the 10 key and your left hand is on the Spacebar, and that's where you do your hard drop. And the Rotate is actually back then is in the middle of left-right. So you've got left-right, you've got rotate. Those are three buttons on the right. On the left side you've got hard drop. So those are the four buttons.
+
+What Nintendo invented - which is a great thing... I actually got my guys to try it, but my testers rejected it... And that was - when we went to the console, was to put left-right on the little cross. They had the rotate on the down, and the drop on the trigger, on the right side. And that was sort of like just backwards from the way it was on the keyboard on a PC. But what Nintendo did was they got rid of hard drop, and they made it a soft drop, and then on the right thumb you had left rotate and right rotate. So now we've got all of the movement buttons on the left hand, and all the rotate on the other hand, which I think that's a much better user interface.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, I think so. It kind of equals out the playing field, you know what's on which side and what, and which does what.
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Yeah, and you get a left rotate and a right rotate. So when you're really in a pinch, those two rotation, instead of having to make three rotations to get the T block to be a certain direction, you can just do one rotate the other direction.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Right.
+
+**Henk Rogers:** If you've only got clockwise rotation, then you'd have to rotate three times to get to a position, instead of rotating the other direction one time. So that's one. Sega, they had a different way -- in the Nintendo game when a piece got to the bottom, as soon as it touched blocks in the playfield, which we call the matrix... As soon as it touches a block in the matrix, it locks down. So it's like locked down as instant. But in the Sega, you could drop it, land it, and once it's landed, you could still rotate it and move it. So this meant you could hard drop a piece, and then you could like drop it, and rotate it, and drop it... In fact, the way the game was played on the Sega machine is most of the thinking time that you have about what to do with the piece is after you drop it. And in the Nintendo game, it's all happening while the piece is falling. So those are fundamental differences. And we we incorporate both of those ideas into the guideline. So basically, you can think while it's falling, but you still have time once it's landed, like 500 milliseconds before it actually locks down. That sort of gives you a chance to rotate and do something once it's landed, so it's not as brutal.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** \[20:55\] Before we move on to ultimately talk about the bigger question here, which might be how did you actually pay for all this travel time, deliberation with lawyers and getting the licensing, and ultimately creating the Tetris Company, and Blue Planet Software, let's let's talk briefly about more or less where it's going. I know that you guys have always been this forward-thinking duo between you and Alexey and what Tetris is. We see more and more now that games are going mobile. I mean, mobile games are like the number one seller on the Apple App Store, and all that good stuff. Where do you see the future of Tetris going? Is it just going to keep this simple, but yet complex game mechanics going on? Where do you see it going through the mobile platforms, and how is it impacting Tetris as it is right now?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Okay, so first I'd like to mention that the mobile platform has been Tetris' greatest hit so far. We probably did around 40 million on GameBoy. But about almost a year ago we passed 100 million downloads, paid downloads on mobile phones. So that's a huge number. That's the biggest number of any game on mobile.
+
+And so yes, Tetris will continue to be the best mobile game. It's just very simple. The screen on a mobile device, by definition, is small. And the pieces of Tetris are very distinct, and easy to see on the small screen. And the gameplay doesn't lose when you go to a small device. So Tetris is and still continues to be, after - gosh, now 20 years, the best mobile game out there.
+
+But the future of Tetris I think is social. We're working on a new version of Tetris where you play Tetris with your friends, and you get to meet new people through Tetris. And so rather than playing Solitaire -- and the word "Solitaire", if you listen to that word, Solitaire is like the worst thing you could do to somebody. You could send them to solitary confinement, which means that they're by themselves, they don't get to talk to anybody. And video games, by and large, traditionally have been people going off into their own little world and playing a video game by themselves. But being by themselves is a little bit of a torture in a way, because people need companionship. And so going forward, Tetris, and I think all video games, will become social, so that you're in there, and you're never alone. You're with your friends, and they're competing against you, or you're on the same team, competing against other people. So I think that that is the future of gaming, and it's certainly the future of Tetris.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Is it something that Blue Planet Software and the Tetris Company will do itself? Or will it license this out and you'll kind of play a part in that?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** So we have licensed Tetris out to the -- how can I say... The online industry. We've got three licensees as we speak, for different territories for online. But I don't think any of them have really successfully made the transition from Tetris being a solo game to being a social game. And so every once in a while when I think that things aren't going according to plan, so to speak, I roll up my sleeves and I start building a new product. So that's what we're doing right now. We're in the process of creating a new version of Tetris which is social.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** \[24:44\] Was Tetris Attack part of that social? I remember in my research looking up some of the things on this conversation here that Tetris Attack came out about two years ago in '09. Was that the social version of it, or the version that first started that?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Tetris Attack or Tetris Battle? The versions that have come out so far - and they started in Korea, because Korea is sort of like ahead of the curve. They were the first ones to do Tetris on a large scale. But if you look at Tetris the way it's done in Korea, it's a very adversarial way of playing the game. You and five other people get into a room, and you form teams; either three on three, two on two on two, or every one for himself, and you duke it out. And so that may be an interesting way of playing in Korea, but it's not the way people in general play social games.
+
+So for example, you're not duking it out with anybody in Farmville, or any of those social games on Facebook. You're basically showing off your accomplishments, and you're helping your friends get ahead. And the more friends you have helping you, the better off you are. And that's the direction that we have to go in, and that's the direction we are going in.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** I guess around the mobile gaming space, which is your favorite to play Tetris on?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** On the mobile, I guess -- my favorite is still the Gameboy. It's got the best controls for the device size. If you go to mobile phones themselves, the majority, for example, what they call feature phones, pre-smartphone era - the feature phones, you're playing on the number keys on your mobile phone, and they weren't designed to do that. They were designed to make phone calls. And so they're not game machine keys. And now that we've gone to smartphones, where you touch and slide... It's interesting, but still, when you look at the 100% dedicated game machine, like the Gameboy, they could have made that a slide screen, but they didn't. They still have the buttons in there as part of the form factor. So being able to play with the original buttons - maybe call me old-school, whatever, but that's still easier for me to play, with the little cross and then the left and right rotate.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Earlier, when you mentioned the basic mechanics of Tetris, I was thinking about - I actually just bought the game on iPhone recently, and the hard drop is super-easy. I kind of like how also that you can see the image of the piece down at the bottom where it will land, but you also see it falling at the same time... But you can also grab that block and do that hard drop, like you'd mentioned before, to get those extra points from top up.
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Yeah.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** I think the platforms like that, the touchscreen, and this direct interface... Are you saying that you favorite the old-school GameBoy versus this? Or is it just because it's a preference of you?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Well, I'm getting to be an old man. I just became a grandfather.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Congratulations.
+
+**Henk Rogers:** \[28:04\] Thank you. So it's hard for me to to get my game skill up to the point on the new screen. Whereas my kids, and everybody else in the younger generation, they're much more adept at manipulating that kind of a screen than I am. I'm just not -- I didn't grow up with it. It's like inventing a new way of playing tennis. It's hard for the older folks to catch up.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** So at what point does Blue Lava Wireless play in this grand scheme? We've talked about traveling the world and battling lawyers for licenses, and defining the gaming mechanics, and the whole entire spectrum of what Tetris is today... What role does Blue Lava Wireless play in this big story?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Yeah, so Blue Lava Wireless... Around 1999, I think, a friend of mine in Japan who was starting a new publishing company came to me and he said, "My publishing company is going to be based on one product. It's going to be Tetris. The other product that I think could make it work is Pokémon, but Nintendo's never going to license Pokémon to me. So I need Tetris from you. And I'm willing to bet a third of the money that I raise to start this company to get the rights to Tetris." So basically, he made me an offer I couldn't refuse. And by the way, everything he said came true. That company went on to become the number mobile phone game company, Tetris was their number one product, it was probably half of their sales... And with that ammunition in hand, I started looking around the US for a licensee. Okay, so who's going to be my mobile phone licensee? And the biggest offer we got was $25,000. That was a joke compared to what I got out of Japan.
+
+And so what I realized at that moment is that nobody in the US quite understood what was going to happen with mobile games, how big that was going to be. So I decided to do it myself. So again, I started another company called Blue Lava Wireless. We started I think in 2002, here in Hawaii. And basically, I'd moved to Hawaii because I had some line on financing... But six months into it, we were so close to profitability that we never needed the financing. So we never took any outside money. It was just my wife and I, and we built the company, and it was profitable. And when we sold it, we were still growing.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** And I think that sale that you just mentioned happened around three and a half years later, for a pretty, pretty high number, too. Do you want to mention that number?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Yeah. What you read in the newspaper is $137 million. And the $137 million came from JAMDAT; 4 million of that was stock, at $16 a share. But a year later, Electronic Arts bought JAMDAT and cashed in all my stock that I was holding. So the 4 million shares was valued at $27, and so I think I made around $180 million all told. Of course, there's other people with hands in the pockets, and so on and so forth... But it was still a good deal.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** What was the early talks about with EA? How did they come to you? I haven't been the kind of person that's been so in-depth into games to understand EA's history, but I'd imagine that around 2005 they were pretty popular. I mean, I played NHL98 and all the other fun games, like Madden and stuff, but they were a pretty big player. What did they come at you with? And was there any fun stories about EA in that approach?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** \[31:58\] Well, actually it wasn't me that they came at. It was JAMDAT. So basically -- you know I'm not day-to-day at JAMDAT, so... I didn't have the company at that point. But Electronic Arts, historically, just to give you some background - I published two of Electronic Art's first games in Japan; that would be M.U.L.E.and Archon, in 1986-1987... '86, probably. So I've been close to EA since their beginning; they started after me. And they tried to buy me twice in Japan, so that I could become their Japan EA. And twice I said no. And both times, I should have said yes. I was an idiot back then. I didn't know anything about selling companies. I was still trying to hang on, and trying to do everything myself. It's like having your first baby. You watch it too carefully.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** When you look back on that time, why do you say you should have said yes?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Because I would have had money. Electronic Arts after that went public, and whatever stock I got out of it would have been huge. Just like Richard Garriott made his money by selling to Electronic Arts origin. That could have been me, so to speak.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** So what made you say no?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Oh, yeah. Well, the first time I said no was because the US had just gone through the Atari crash, and I was looking at the future was going to be Nintendo. And I talked to Electronic Arts about it and said "No, no, no. There's no future in cartridges", because of what happened in the US. I can understand why they would say that. But for me, my future of Bulletproof Software in Japan was heavily cartridge-based. And so that was the reason I said no the first time.
+
+I was negotiating with Tripp Hawkins back then, and I talked to him about this later, and he said, "That's probably not true. You could have convinced me to do cartridge, and so on and so on and so forth." But anyway, I said no. I got cold feet.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** What about the second time?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** The second time... I forget. I just didn't want to -- I'd never worked for anybody... \[laughs\] And I could see that if they bought me, there would be a "You've got to run the company for X number of years, and report to us" and so on and so forth. And I'd never done it. I'd never reported to anybody; no board of directors, or no manager... So I was kind of afraid of ending up having to run a company that somebody else was telling me what to do. That was the second time. Again, foolish, but that's my history.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** I think the -- not so much the best part of this, but I think from a planetary culture changing perspective on your story I think one of the coolest things I like about this, and really what's come out of this, is you started the Blue Planet Foundation back there in Hawaii, where you're at now. We talked about the funding and the sale to JAMDAT, which was ultimately taken over by EA, and you talked about how much money you made there... Has all that money been fueled into what you're doing at Blue Planet? And can you give kind of a quick overview of what you're doing there at Blue Planet Foundation?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Yeah. So just a quick overview... A month after I sold Blue Lava Wireless and made all that money, I had a heart attack. And I'm on the way to the -- I hadn't spent a nickel, and I'm lying in the ambulance, on the way to the hospital, and I'm saying "You've got to be kidding me. I haven't really done what I really need to do with the money yet." And so I'm looking at the ceiling and I'm saying to myself, "I'm going to survive this no matter what. If I have to hold my breath for 15 minutes, I will. Because I have stuff to do." And then I got to thinking about that afterwards. Of course, I survived it. I have two stents, and it's great, I'm back to normal. I got a chance to spend a couple of weeks thinking about what I want to do before I die. And I found my four missions in life.
+
+\[36:06\] My first mission is to end the use of carbon-based fuel. And to that end, I started the Blue Planet Foundation, which is working to end the use of carbon-based fuel, starting in Hawaii, because guess what - Hawaii has all the alternative energy that it could possibly want. It has wind, it has solar, it has geothermal, it has ocean thermal energy conversion, it has - God knows; every kind of alternative energy. And we have the highest price of fossil fuel of anywhere in the world, because we have to ship it the farthest. It gets barged here, and we pay the highest electricity, the highest gasoline prices of anywhere in the country; not in the world, but in the country. So Hawaii is ripe to make the changeover from fossil fuel to alternative energy. And we might as well go all the way and say from fossil fuel to non-carbon-based alternative energy.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** And so the Blue Planet Foundation is -- I want to give the one-liner, I suppose... It's a local nonprofit organization, and you said it best, committed to ending the use of fossil fuels on Earth, and starting in Hawaii because of all these resources already there, that they should be using? Why do you think it's -- I mean, some big reasons, obviously, with politics and the cost of fuel... But bigger than that, why do you feel that this is now your sole mission, or the biggest mission beyond Tetris, for you?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** It's my first mission. And the reason is because in my lifetime, we can do this thing. And it's totally doable, just like the Industrial Revolution. If we look back on it, pre-industrial revolution and post-industrial revolution, how big of a change that made to the world... And now we mention the guy who invented steam, and so on and so forth, as being heroes in that time period. But it didn't take that long, and it spread through the world. And that's kind of what I'm looking to do with alternative energy. And the reasons for it is, one is we have no idea what we're doing to the climate. I mean, you could be on one side of the political fence -- by the way, this political fence only exists in this country. If you look at the rest of the countries on the planet, they're looking at the US and say, "How can this be a political issue? It's a scientific issue. Just go out there, measure the temperature of the ocean, and find out that it's getting warmer, and that's got to be bad for the way things are." Things are going to change in ways that we don't even know yet. But that's just one side of it.
+
+The second part of it, carbon dioxide goes into the ocean, and it causes acidification of the ocean. And what it's doing is it's making it harder and harder for marine animals that use carbon, like coral, like shellfish, to survive. And so effectively, we could be killing all of the coral by the end of this century, by continuing on the path that we're on. That's nuts; that's a third of our food supply that's sort of coral-based. It's just gonna cause so much trouble that we haven't even figured out yet. It's not just about pretty fish and all that, it's about a whole ecosystem that we're ready here to wipe out.
+
+But then look at fossil fuel, look at oil. Iraq, Afghanistan - all these wars and the trillions of dollars that we're spending on these wars, killing people and having them kill us, is all to maintain our oil supply. If we didn't need oil, those wars would not have happened. So why can't we just get over it and move on to the next phase of mankind? Well, we don't do that. We don't have to.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** You mentioned four points, and we got the one... What are the other three?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** \[40:08\] My second mission is to end war. And I think they go hand in hand. If you relieve some of this tension in the world, then war becomes unnecessary. The third one is to make a backup of life on Earth. We got hit 65 million years ago by a big rock from space that wiped out the dinosaurs. A big rock from space could wipe us out next, very easily. So we need to make a backup, and I think Mars is the easiest place, and the nearest place where we can actually make a backup. So we need an effective space program, we need to go to Mars, we need to terraform Mars, we need to make Mars -- like, turn it into another Earth. It's just a matter of time.
+
+I live on the Big Island. You watch the coastal lava rock - they've changed that into a tropical paradise. They just grind up the rock, make golf courses out of it. So we can do it here, we can do it there. It's just a matter of time and engineering.
+
+And the fourth one - I have no idea why I have this mission, but it was there, and I followed my heart, and it's to figure out how the Universe ends. One way of looking at it is that the Universe ends next week, and maybe I don't have to work so hard on my first three missions. But I think that if we find out the true nature of the Universe, that will be another fundamental change. Maybe it will give us boundless free energy, or some kind of -- something new. I mean, when we first discovered e = mc squared, that gave us nuclear energy. I mean, that changed the world completely. And that's sort of figuring out the Universe, how it ends, or what's the true nature of the universe. That sort of goes hand in hand with that.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** And so is it by any ironic nature that you created a game called Blue Mars?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** No, absolutely not. That's right in mission number three. So we're creating a platform so that people can go and build things on Mars, and sort of get used to the idea of "Yeah, we can go there and do whatever we want." And that's sort of what I want people today to understand, and that's, I'm sure, what people in the future will be doing.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** And how old is Blue Planet Foundation?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Blue Planet Foundation is probably four years old now...
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** What are some of the bigger accomplishments that you've achieved so far on not just your four-point list, but in general in the foundation's list?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** In the foundation - yeah, so we changed like 100,000 light bulbs from incandescent to compact fluorescent. We pretty much changed all the light bulbs on the islan of Molokai and we're still changing them. That has a direct impact. Each light bulb that you change saves a tremendous amount of electricity, which in Hawaii translates to less burning of fossil fuel. We have passed laws... We passed a law saying that every new house that gets built in Hawaii has to have a solar hot water heater. 40% of all residential electricity for houses that don't have solar hot water heaters goes to heating water. So if you have a solar hot water heater, that's 40% less electricity that you need in your house.
+
+We pass a number of electric car legislation, so that it makes it more attractive for someone to own and operate an electric car in Hawaii. We passed the first barrel tax in the nation; basically, for every barrel of oil that's imported into Hawaii, it gets taxed $1. And that dollar goes to alternative energy projects.
+
+\[44:05\] We work with the PUC, we intervene... So we've been working between the PUC and the electric company on a host of different things... Basically, if there's anything going on in Hawaii that has to do with alternative energy, we're in the middle of that conversation.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** I love how this is all fueled by Tetris, really. Right? I mean, that's where your story started. Actually, before we got on the call, you'd mentioned that you actually went to Japan chasing a woman, so I guess we should really thank love, really, ultimately, right?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** \[laughs\]
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** You chased love and Tetris.
+
+**Henk Rogers:** I chased love... Yeah, so that woman is my wife, and we have four children now.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** And she also helps you do all these fun things together. So you're really a team.
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Absolutely, absolutely. She's been there all the way. She let me basically work on my first game for nine months without having a job, and that ultimately led to my first company. So she put up with me while having three kids, and I was basically living with my in-laws while I made my first computer game. So yeah, it wouldn't have happened without her.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** So we could thank love...
+
+**Henk Rogers:** There you go.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** I love that. And obviously, Alexey, and Tetris, and everything that you guys have done there in that journey. The last question - I know we've been on the call for a bit; we're at around 45 minutes, I asked you for a half hour, but it's been an honor to speak with you... But the next question I have really is one I'd love to ask... What is on your radar in terms of super-secretness? Is there anything going on in the next horizon of Blue Planet Foundation, Tetris, the Tetris Company, anything whatsoever that's like super-secret, you haven't told anybody that you can announce here on the show today.
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Gosh... You should have asked me that before, I could have prepared for something. I have up my sleeve in Blue Mars a new way of making role-playing games. I call it the Adventure Engine. Let's put it this way - it will enable ordinary people, like people who write stories, or who want to be role-playing game level designers or so on, to easily make their own role-playing game inside of Blue Mars. So that will open up the world of game design, or interactive fiction design, to a lot of people who are sort of being corralled into groups like World of Warcraft, big teams, so they'll be able to do it on their own, pretty much like the way people make stuff for the App Store. So App Store meets role-playing games. That's my -- it's called the Adventure Engine.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** And ultimately, Blue Mars is helping you hit point number three, which is to replicate life here on Earth and move to Mars, or at least give us a backup.
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Yeah. We're in a software business. You make backups. Hello?!
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** It should be obvious, yeah. I mean, I love how this idea, though, is that -- I think this Blue Mars idea, and the gaming, and obviously that super-secret that you've just mentioned just now is huge, because what you're really doing is you're opening on a large scale people's minds to being able to provide life, or create life, or enable life on Mars.
+
+I think you've mentioned Tetris' next level is social gaming, and obviously, you're taking the idea of taking us to Mars to a social spectrum with Blue Mars, and you're even opening it up bigger with this... What was it called, again? What is the engine? The Adventure Engine?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Adventure Engine.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. That's very cool. Well, Henk, it was more than an honor to speak with you. I mean, I'm sitting here just thinking, I just had a 45-minute conversation with someone who changed the world in a massive way, and will continue to change the world a massive way... And it's been an honor to have you on the show today, and I thank you so much. Before we go, is there any way you can mention a few links, or Twitter, Facebook, something like that, so people can get involved or learn more about Blue Planet Foundation, and what you're doing with Tetris, and how you're changing the world? Is there anything you want to mention?
+
+**Henk Rogers:** Yes, please go to BluePlanetFoundation.org and find out what we're doing. We're doing it in Hawaii because we're in Hawaii, and we believe that we need to clean our own room before we ask other people to clean up their rooms. But we'll be coming to your part of the world and ask you to help clean your part of the world as well.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Okay. Again, Henk, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show. I really, really appreciate you taking the time to be here.
+
+**Henk Rogers:** You're welcome. Nice to talk to you, Adam.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Thank you.

Henk Rogers ⧸ The Tetris Company_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,720 @@
+[0.00 --> 7.54]  This is Founders Talk, an interview podcast hosted by me, Adam Stachowiak.
+[7.80 --> 10.68]  We profile founders building businesses online as well as offline.
+[11.28 --> 15.76]  If you found the show on iTunes, we're also on the web at 5by5.tv slash Founders Talk.
+[16.04 --> 19.38]  If you're on Twitter, follow Founders Talk and me, Adam Stack.
+[19.92 --> 24.40]  Today's guest is Hank Rogers, founder of The Tetris Company, Blue Planet Software, and
+[24.40 --> 25.62]  Blue Planet Foundation.
+[26.16 --> 26.74]  Enjoy the show.
+[26.74 --> 33.08]  I'm here with Hank Rogers, serial entrepreneur, game designer turned entrepreneur.
+[33.60 --> 37.98]  He is the founder of Blue Planet Software as well as The Tetris Company, which is most
+[37.98 --> 41.50]  known for bringing the worldwide phenomenon known as Tetris to the world.
+[41.62 --> 44.90]  It's by far one of the most universally played video games of all time.
+[45.46 --> 48.24]  So I'm proud to introduce you guys to Hank Rogers.
+[48.34 --> 48.84]  Please say hello.
+[49.34 --> 49.60]  Hello.
+[50.12 --> 55.54]  So Hank, you've had quite the journey on this road, not just so much from Tetris, but all
+[55.54 --> 61.70]  the companies you founded and your road into philanthropy and what you're doing now.
+[61.88 --> 66.96]  But can you give us, for the listeners who maybe just know Tetris' story, but don't so
+[66.96 --> 71.90]  much know Hank's story, can you give us an idea of your journey and where it started and what
+[71.90 --> 73.16]  you've done over the last 20 years?
+[73.88 --> 74.16]  Okay.
+[74.16 --> 78.80]  I'm originally from Holland, 11 years in Holland, 8 years in New York City.
+[79.70 --> 85.94]  I went to Stuyvesant High School in New York City, late 60s, early 70s, and that's where
+[85.94 --> 87.30]  I first got to touch a computer.
+[88.94 --> 91.92]  My next stint was in Hawaii.
+[92.26 --> 96.48]  I was here for four years, three of which I spent attending the University of Hawaii,
+[96.64 --> 99.54]  majoring in computer science and Dungeons and Dragons.
+[99.54 --> 104.18]  Then I moved to Japan, 18 years in Japan.
+[105.26 --> 111.48]  I started my first company and wrote the first role-playing game in Japan in 1983.
+[113.30 --> 115.42]  So I was a game designer, a programmer.
+[115.70 --> 117.26]  I did pretty much everything back then.
+[119.54 --> 127.06]  Then I switched my role from being a programmer, game designer to being a publisher, and I used
+[127.06 --> 128.64]  to travel the world looking for games.
+[128.64 --> 133.40]  One of the games that I found on one of my trips was a game called Tetris at the Consumer
+[133.40 --> 134.80]  Electronics Show in Las Vegas.
+[136.12 --> 138.88]  I thought I was attached to this game.
+[138.98 --> 140.58]  I kept coming back and playing it.
+[142.18 --> 145.60]  I've been after Tetris and the rights to Tetris ever since.
+[146.54 --> 154.94]  When the big opportunity came, which is 1995, basically all the rights to Tetris were reverting
+[154.94 --> 157.98]  back to the author of Tetris, Alexey Pajitnov.
+[157.98 --> 164.16]  He had asked me to help him and be his partner, and I decided to go for it.
+[164.48 --> 166.10]  I've been his partner ever since.
+[166.40 --> 167.20]  Still am today.
+[167.84 --> 170.28]  We formed what is called a Tetris company.
+[170.84 --> 173.34]  What is this partnership with Lexi?
+[173.42 --> 177.92]  How has that changed your life, I guess, besides obviously what you just said with Tetris?
+[178.10 --> 179.82]  How has that finally changed your life?
+[179.82 --> 186.60]  Well, I went from trying to design my own games to working on Tetris because I thought
+[186.60 --> 187.82]  that was a bigger play.
+[189.30 --> 197.04]  Sure enough, compared to, say, another game, Tetris just sort of outperforms it 10x.
+[197.04 --> 205.38]  Now, I've contributed a lot to Tetris over the years in terms of game design, and that's
+[205.38 --> 206.56]  sort of what I do today.
+[206.66 --> 210.72]  Even today, I'm working on improving the design and doing new things with Tetris.
+[210.96 --> 214.64]  Can you describe some of the first moments of you stumbling onto Tetris?
+[214.84 --> 217.90]  Were you like, wow, this is the best thing in the world?
+[217.90 --> 224.12]  What were your first thoughts about the game, and did it even occur to you that it would
+[224.12 --> 225.78]  get you to where you are today?
+[227.04 --> 228.38]  No, the answer to that is no.
+[228.52 --> 230.66]  I found it at the Consumer Electronics Show.
+[230.80 --> 234.38]  I played it, and I thought, okay.
+[235.02 --> 238.62]  I mean, it looked really rudimentary compared to all the other games that were at the trade
+[238.62 --> 241.04]  show, even in 1987.
+[242.20 --> 246.06]  And I went away, and I came back, and I played a little bit more, and I went away, and I came
+[246.06 --> 246.82]  back a little bit more.
+[246.82 --> 250.36]  And the fifth time, I realized I was hooked on this game.
+[250.48 --> 254.40]  And no other game does that to you at the Consumer Electronics Show.
+[254.48 --> 258.90]  You've got to sort of make up your mind about whether a game is interesting by playing it
+[258.90 --> 261.10]  for 10 seconds or 15 seconds.
+[261.62 --> 265.34]  And that's just not enough time for most games to really get the gist of the game.
+[265.62 --> 267.58]  But in Tetris, you could get it.
+[268.42 --> 269.24]  And I did.
+[269.94 --> 271.44]  And so I was hooked.
+[271.94 --> 276.80]  And at that time, I was the president of the company, name of my company in Japan.
+[276.82 --> 278.80]  And it was bulletproof software.
+[279.62 --> 282.16]  And I made all the decisions, ran the spreadsheets.
+[282.36 --> 287.40]  And so I could negotiate at the Consumer Electronics Show to try to get titles.
+[287.54 --> 289.86]  And I started that path with Tetris.
+[290.32 --> 294.18]  About what time did Blue Planet Software come into play to supersede your original company,
+[294.28 --> 295.06]  bulletproof software?
+[295.06 --> 296.86]  It's the end of 95.
+[296.86 --> 302.04]  You know, I created the company to be the partner and the managing company for Tetris.
+[302.66 --> 303.60]  In 19...
+[303.60 --> 308.12]  It's right around New Year's of 1995, 96.
+[308.96 --> 311.74]  So that's when we created Blue Planet Software.
+[312.28 --> 314.22]  And, you know, I'd always been BPS.
+[314.22 --> 316.62]  So I like the mnemonic of BPS.
+[316.82 --> 318.80]  And I had a really good logo, which I didn't use.
+[319.68 --> 325.34]  And I thought setting up a company in the U.S., I'd call it BPS because everybody knew me as being somebody from BPS.
+[325.72 --> 329.52]  But we try to make it a little bit more new age.
+[330.16 --> 332.92]  And Blue Planet Software, the concept is you start in Hawaii.
+[332.92 --> 335.16]  And then you get a global view.
+[335.32 --> 338.76]  You kind of back off the planet and look at the planet from above Hawaii.
+[338.96 --> 340.32]  It's pretty much a blue planet.
+[340.88 --> 344.72]  So it's a worldview starting in Hawaii.
+[345.38 --> 351.96]  It's kind of funny, too, how your first treks into this business world slash gaming world was, you know, was role-playing.
+[352.56 --> 357.50]  And it's not uncommon to actually look at your life and see it very much like a role-playing game.
+[357.96 --> 359.14]  You'd invented games.
+[359.14 --> 364.52]  You'd help, obviously, mold and shape Tetris to what it is today, create companies to support it and license it.
+[364.92 --> 370.56]  You'd gone to Russia, negotiated contracts, even, from what I understand, dealt with the KGB at some point.
+[371.00 --> 375.94]  Tell us a little bit about the journey of creating the companies to support Tetris and the licensing models.
+[376.04 --> 382.66]  What were some of the earlier thoughts about truly making Tetris, I guess, the culture-changing game that it is today?
+[382.66 --> 395.12]  Well, prior to the formation of the Tetris company, the Soviet Ministry of Software, Electronork Technica, had licensed Tetris to a bunch of different companies.
+[395.28 --> 400.76]  Sega, Nintendo, Bulletproof Software, Mirrorsoft, all these different companies.
+[401.38 --> 411.56]  And without really having a guideline as to what the product should do or how it should work, as a result, they were all different and not compatible.
+[411.56 --> 414.16]  So, I mean, there would be fundamental differences.
+[414.16 --> 418.94]  Like if you had a car where the brake is on the right and the gas pedal is on the left side.
+[419.28 --> 422.52]  Obviously, if you rented that car, a lot of people would have accidents.
+[423.02 --> 428.36]  Well, in the case of Tetris, it made the game very hard to play for people switching platforms.
+[428.54 --> 430.50]  The biggest difference was in Japan.
+[431.48 --> 433.40]  Nintendo was a huge hit with Game Boy.
+[433.40 --> 438.44]  And I had their same user interface with the Nintendo 8-bit.
+[438.90 --> 442.50]  But Sega had a huge hit with Tetris as a coin-op.
+[442.90 --> 449.14]  And they had a completely different way of handling the way the blocks fell and the way they locked down and the way they rotated.
+[449.24 --> 449.94]  They were all different.
+[449.94 --> 457.30]  And so my first job when I formed the Tetris company was to create a guideline.
+[458.12 --> 471.08]  And we have a guideline today that basically everybody has to conform to so that at least the gas pedal is on the right, the brakes on the left, and all those things are standardized.
+[471.46 --> 474.16]  So people can go from platform to platform and play Tetris.
+[474.16 --> 486.22]  So let's talk about some of the roadblocks you might have faced, I guess, in doing this journey, creating the Tetris company, licensing Tetris, and forming this basic gaming mechanics.
+[486.40 --> 491.52]  What are some of the biggest brick walls that you can think of that are, I guess, most notable to talk about?
+[491.92 --> 498.28]  Well, the earliest, biggest brick wall was that Alexei, in 1993, asked me to help him.
+[498.28 --> 507.78]  And he said, you know what, the Russian or the Soviet government was totally going to try to rip him off.
+[508.12 --> 509.82]  Well, it's the leftover of the Soviet government.
+[509.92 --> 513.28]  All these ministries became private companies.
+[514.02 --> 516.40]  How the hell that happens, nobody knows.
+[516.86 --> 518.44]  But they became private companies.
+[518.74 --> 520.60]  And then they claim rights.
+[521.08 --> 524.68]  Like, I mean, how did the guy who owned the oil company at the end get to own the oil company?
+[525.10 --> 525.94]  Nobody knows.
+[525.94 --> 529.32]  Well, it was that way with the software.
+[530.36 --> 534.26]  And Alexei said they were going to claim that he didn't have any rights.
+[534.38 --> 542.76]  And sure enough, come 1995, you know, Nintendo needed to renew their rights because all the contracts ended in 1995.
+[543.50 --> 547.26]  And the Russians came out and said, you know what, Alexei has no rights.
+[547.72 --> 548.36]  He never did.
+[548.86 --> 550.22]  It was work for hire.
+[550.92 --> 552.26]  It was the Soviet Union.
+[552.26 --> 556.62]  And people didn't have any copyright rights, authorship rights.
+[556.62 --> 561.02]  And so everything that Alexei said was going to happen was actually happening.
+[561.74 --> 563.40]  And so I went to bat for Alexei.
+[563.52 --> 568.38]  I said, you know, I remember being in a meeting with Elorix lawyers and Nintendo's lawyers.
+[568.56 --> 569.30]  And that was just me.
+[569.40 --> 573.54]  And I said, gentlemen, I'm probably the only one in this room, not a lawyer.
+[573.54 --> 587.48]  But I can see at some point there's going to be a jury and they're going to have to decide whether it's the ministry of software of the defunct Soviet Union or the author of the game who actually owns the rights to Tetris.
+[587.70 --> 588.88]  I'm betting on the author.
+[588.88 --> 597.36]  So from there, you know, there was no that they were going to give us 20 percent and we were going to give them 20 percent.
+[597.82 --> 599.08]  I mean, we're very far apart.
+[599.74 --> 602.70]  A year later, we came together, in fact, in Moscow.
+[603.30 --> 606.78]  And we ended up negotiating seriously.
+[607.54 --> 610.30]  And we came up with the Tetris company.
+[610.30 --> 632.74]  The deal for me was that all of the copyright and trademark registrations in I don't know how many countries were in the name of Elorg, Electronarch Technica, which would mean that I'd have to go country by country and fight for the rights to get these trademarks and get the copyrights back.
+[633.84 --> 636.24]  And that was their deal with Nintendo, by the way.
+[636.24 --> 644.02]  When they did a deal with Nintendo, they said Nintendo has to, in their name, register the copyright and trademark in all these countries, which they did.
+[645.04 --> 649.58]  So I was kind of sort of in a quarter, but we got a pretty decent deal.
+[650.30 --> 658.62]  So the Tetris company at that time was a 50-50 company between Blue Planet Software and Electronarch Technica, Elorg.
+[659.50 --> 664.52]  And Blue Planet Software became the exclusive agent of the Tetris company.
+[664.52 --> 668.30]  So we did all the work, which, I mean, those guys in Moscow, they had no idea.
+[668.74 --> 670.32]  So they couldn't do any of the work anyway.
+[670.90 --> 672.56]  What was the concern at that point?
+[672.66 --> 675.24]  Did they just want the rights to the game because they cared about it so much?
+[675.30 --> 678.80]  Or was it just a financial battle for them?
+[679.34 --> 685.24]  You know, for them, these were like communists all of a sudden without a communist country.
+[686.02 --> 689.70]  And so their concept was people don't have these rights.
+[689.70 --> 694.52]  They didn't believe that copyright or trademark belonged to, you know, people.
+[694.84 --> 696.90]  It belonged to the people.
+[697.26 --> 701.04]  And all of a sudden, okay, so how the hell does it go from the people to being them?
+[701.26 --> 704.76]  That's kind of weird, you know.
+[704.92 --> 705.10]  Okay.
+[705.30 --> 709.22]  So there was an ideological difference.
+[709.22 --> 715.60]  And they thought they could walk away with it with, like, the guy walking away with the oil company.
+[715.98 --> 717.50]  They could walk away with the whole Tetris.
+[717.98 --> 720.52]  And I said, no, that's not the way it's going to go down.
+[720.60 --> 725.24]  And we fought and negotiated and finally came up with an agreement.
+[725.86 --> 727.00]  How long did this all take?
+[727.16 --> 729.34]  Was it a year or so or was it just a couple months?
+[729.34 --> 743.06]  Well, yeah, from the time that the previous, you know, sort of conversation with all the lawyers in the room to when we actually formed the company is about, it's almost a year.
+[743.24 --> 748.46]  I think I met in February at Nintendo in Redmond for that prior meeting where we walked away.
+[748.88 --> 750.00]  We couldn't agree to anything.
+[750.00 --> 760.10]  And then I ended up in Moscow in the very beginning of 1996, like right around that New Year's cusp.
+[760.70 --> 765.40]  And we were seriously negotiating because Nintendo was publishing without a license.
+[766.32 --> 770.48]  Or they weren't going to continue publishing because they didn't have a license, you know.
+[770.52 --> 773.64]  And this was, like, bad for Tetris all around.
+[773.64 --> 779.20]  And so at what point then did Blue Planet Software actually get a hold of Tetris?
+[779.20 --> 787.70]  And when that happened, what were some of the fundamental changes that actually catapulted into the next stages of having the gaming mechanics down and the licensings managed?
+[787.90 --> 789.60]  At what point did that happen for Blue Planet Software?
+[789.92 --> 792.36]  Yeah, so that happened right at the beginning of 1996.
+[793.04 --> 797.44]  And what was the very first publisher, I guess, of the next version or this?
+[797.44 --> 799.54]  Well, we rolled over Nintendo.
+[799.74 --> 807.04]  We gave them sort of grandfathered in Nintendo with their existing product.
+[807.04 --> 810.44]  But who was the first licensee?
+[810.58 --> 814.20]  Gosh, I can't even remember.
+[815.06 --> 815.84]  How many have there been?
+[817.44 --> 822.32]  Probably somewhere between, somewhere around 50, 60 licensees.
+[822.32 --> 824.04]  And they all create their own different versions.
+[824.24 --> 831.50]  And part of the licensee, the licensee agreement is that they can actually inject characters or put their own little twist on Tetris.
+[831.62 --> 833.28]  But basic mechanics have to stay the same.
+[833.96 --> 836.32]  Yeah, so basically we give them a guideline.
+[837.06 --> 839.68]  And we maintain approval rights.
+[839.80 --> 841.64]  So we approve a final product.
+[841.74 --> 844.32]  So they send us, I mean, they can talk to us.
+[844.32 --> 847.32]  But we don't approve documents or prototypes.
+[847.32 --> 850.90]  It's actually got to be a working game before we approve it.
+[851.96 --> 855.28]  So basically what we say is follow the guideline.
+[855.68 --> 858.16]  Add whatever you want to add to it.
+[858.46 --> 860.20]  That's, you know, that's wide open.
+[860.42 --> 862.80]  If you want to add your characters to it, that's fine.
+[862.88 --> 863.72]  Those are your characters.
+[863.86 --> 866.32]  So you can add Mickey Mouse or Mario.
+[867.14 --> 868.08]  That's all fine.
+[868.32 --> 869.64]  We don't claim those characters.
+[869.74 --> 876.32]  All we claim is any change you make to the game that improves the game becomes part of the IP.
+[876.32 --> 878.96]  The IP that you hold or the IP that they hold?
+[879.34 --> 880.38]  The IP that we hold.
+[881.54 --> 884.82]  That's part of the basic Tetris IP that we license to all licensees.
+[885.28 --> 893.24]  So basically if Nintendo improves something about the Tetris games, not only do we get to use it, but all of our licensees get to use it.
+[893.60 --> 897.86]  Otherwise it gets so complicated saying, oh, this is not invented here and so on and so forth.
+[898.10 --> 899.48]  We just don't want to have that happen.
+[899.58 --> 902.46]  And ultimately it's to the benefit of all licensees.
+[902.46 --> 906.02]  If anything that anybody invents, everybody gets to use.
+[906.32 --> 908.74]  And so how has the game of Tetris really changed over time?
+[908.82 --> 910.56]  I mean, I can just sit back.
+[910.66 --> 913.10]  I'm 31 years old, about to turn 32.
+[913.40 --> 916.52]  The first time I played it was on the very first Nintendo platform.
+[916.64 --> 917.30]  I can remember that.
+[917.72 --> 921.74]  I can't remember if I actually had a couple of Game Boys or not, but I know I played it on that platform.
+[922.32 --> 923.82]  How has it changed over time?
+[924.08 --> 925.74]  And how has it impacted our culture?
+[925.74 --> 926.22]  Yeah.
+[926.22 --> 926.62]  Yeah.
+[926.76 --> 941.96]  So if you go back to the very original Tetris, which Alexei created in the Electronica 60, which was a PDP-11 ripoff, it only counted the tetraminos that fell into the screen.
+[942.70 --> 945.02]  Each time one fell into the screen, you got points.
+[945.02 --> 951.64]  And if you dropped it like a hard drop, if you dropped it from the top of the screen, you'd get 19 points.
+[951.94 --> 956.10]  If you dropped it from one line down, you'd get 18, 17, 16, and so on.
+[956.36 --> 963.00]  So the higher up you dropped it from, you got less points or more points.
+[963.06 --> 964.86]  The higher you get more points.
+[964.86 --> 968.56]  And then there was a next queue, just a single next block.
+[969.12 --> 977.72]  And that next block, if you turn that on, if you turn it off, you get an extra five points per block.
+[978.36 --> 983.70]  So it behooved you to keep the next block turned off.
+[984.30 --> 985.66]  And that's how the game was.
+[985.72 --> 989.76]  There was no counting lines or bonuses for clearing more lines.
+[989.76 --> 996.28]  That's one of the things that I invented in my first product in Japan, which was for the 8-bit Nintendo.
+[997.04 --> 1004.02]  I added single, double, triple Tetris, where you got bonus points for clearing multiple lines at the same time.
+[1004.86 --> 1013.60]  And the reason I added that is because the lower levels, all players had to play through the lower levels, the slower levels, I should say.
+[1014.18 --> 1018.10]  And when you play through the slower level, that kind of gets boring.
+[1018.10 --> 1020.60]  It doesn't get exciting until you get to the higher level.
+[1021.12 --> 1024.22]  So I wanted to give players something to do at the lower level.
+[1024.86 --> 1033.18]  And I did that by creating this new thing where you actually have to create the pipe somewhere to make a Tetris.
+[1033.58 --> 1042.78]  And when you create the pipe to make a Tetris, your play field or the place where you can land your blocks actually goes from 10-wide to 9-wide, which gives you a little bit extra dilemma.
+[1042.78 --> 1050.92]  And so it makes the game a little bit more exciting by giving you this extra thing to think about of having to squeeze all your blocks.
+[1051.26 --> 1052.18]  What exactly is a Tetris?
+[1052.28 --> 1053.34]  Is it just completing a line?
+[1053.84 --> 1056.12]  No, a Tetris is clearing four lines at a time.
+[1056.22 --> 1056.84]  Four lines at a time.
+[1056.88 --> 1057.12]  Okay.
+[1057.64 --> 1060.06]  So I guess this is some of the evolution of the game, too.
+[1060.12 --> 1061.32]  How many people have contributed?
+[1061.50 --> 1063.80]  How have the licensees contributed to this game?
+[1063.80 --> 1078.68]  Well, if you look at Sega and Nintendo, if you look at the way the keyboard was laid out on the PC, your right hand is on the 10 key and your left hand is on the space bar and that's where you do your hard drop.
+[1079.00 --> 1085.28]  And the rotate is actually, back then, is in the middle of left, right.
+[1085.84 --> 1086.80]  So you got left, right.
+[1086.80 --> 1089.94]  You've got rotate.
+[1090.14 --> 1091.46]  Those are three buttons on the right.
+[1091.70 --> 1094.02]  On the left side, you've got hard drop.
+[1094.50 --> 1095.56]  So those are four buttons.
+[1097.28 --> 1103.58]  What we did, what Nintendo invented, which is a great thing.
+[1103.68 --> 1108.02]  You know, I actually got my guys to try it, but my testers rejected it.
+[1108.02 --> 1117.46]  And that was, when we went to the console, was to put left, right on the little, what do you call it, the little cross.
+[1119.60 --> 1127.98]  And I wanted, see, they had the rotate on the down and the drop on the trigger on the right side.
+[1128.36 --> 1132.62]  And that was sort of like just backwards from the way it was on the keyboard on a PC.
+[1132.62 --> 1140.22]  But what Nintendo did was they put the, they got rid of hard drop and they made it a soft drop.
+[1140.88 --> 1145.02]  And then on the right thumb, you had left rotate and right rotate.
+[1145.68 --> 1155.82]  So now we've got all of the movement buttons on the left hand and all the rotate on the other hand, which I think that's a much better user interface.
+[1156.10 --> 1156.64]  Yeah, I think so.
+[1156.70 --> 1158.68]  It kind of equals out the playing field.
+[1158.74 --> 1160.72]  You know what's on which side and which does what.
+[1160.72 --> 1163.40]  Yeah, and you get a left rotate and a right rotate.
+[1163.60 --> 1176.32]  So when you're really in a pinch, you know, that those two rotation, instead of having to make three rotation to get a certain, like the T block to be a certain direction, you can just do one rotate the other direction.
+[1176.72 --> 1176.84]  Right.
+[1177.04 --> 1184.62]  If it's only got clockwise rotation, then you'd have to roll three times to get to a position instead of rotating the other direction one time.
+[1184.62 --> 1186.24]  So that's one.
+[1187.24 --> 1190.98]  Sega, they had a different way in the Nintendo game.
+[1191.54 --> 1198.46]  When the piece got to the bottom, as soon as it touched blocks in the, we would call it the matrix, in the play field, which we call the matrix.
+[1198.62 --> 1202.72]  As soon as it touches a block in the matrix, it locks down.
+[1203.24 --> 1204.94]  So it's like lockdown is instant.
+[1204.94 --> 1209.64]  But in the Sega, you could drop it, land it.
+[1210.00 --> 1213.14]  Once it's landed, you could still rotate it and move it.
+[1214.02 --> 1223.04]  So this meant that you could hard drop a piece and then you could like drop it and rotate it and drop it.
+[1223.04 --> 1232.34]  In fact, the way the game was played on the Sega machine is most of the thinking time that you have about what to do with the piece is after you drop it.
+[1232.94 --> 1236.50]  And in the Nintendo game, it's all happening while the piece is falling.
+[1237.24 --> 1238.82]  So those are fundamental differences.
+[1239.60 --> 1243.22]  And we incorporate both of those ideas into the guideline.
+[1243.22 --> 1255.32]  So basically, you can think while it's falling, but you still have time once it's landed, like 500 milliseconds before it actually locks down.
+[1255.42 --> 1260.38]  That sort of gives you a chance to rotate and do something once it's landed.
+[1260.52 --> 1261.32]  So it's not as brutal.
+[1261.32 --> 1276.68]  Before we move on to, I guess, ultimately talking about the bigger question here, which might be how did you actually pay for all this travel time, deliberation with lawyers and getting the licensing and ultimately creating the Tetris company and Blue Planet software.
+[1278.34 --> 1283.26]  Let's talk briefly about more or less where it's going.
+[1283.36 --> 1289.72]  I know that you guys have always been this forward thinking duo between you and Alexi and what Tetris is.
+[1289.72 --> 1293.16]  It's like we see more and more now that games are going mobile.
+[1293.48 --> 1299.00]  I mean, mobile games are like the number one seller on the Apple App Store and all that good stuff.
+[1299.12 --> 1301.28]  Where do you see the future of Tetris going?
+[1301.38 --> 1306.20]  Is it just going to keep this simple but yet complex game mechanics going on?
+[1306.28 --> 1311.58]  But where do you see it going through the mobile platforms and how is it impacting the, I guess, Tetris as it is right now?
+[1312.24 --> 1312.46]  Okay.
+[1312.46 --> 1318.08]  So first, I'd like to mention that mobile platform has been Tetris' greatest hit so far.
+[1318.08 --> 1329.92]  We probably did around 40 million on Game Boy, but almost a year ago, we passed 100 million downloads, paid downloads on mobile phones.
+[1330.24 --> 1331.26]  So that's a huge number.
+[1331.34 --> 1334.78]  That's the biggest number of any game on mobile.
+[1335.68 --> 1339.80]  And so, yes, Tetris will continue to be the best mobile game.
+[1340.28 --> 1341.44]  It's just very simple.
+[1341.44 --> 1346.46]  The screen on the mobile device, by definition, is small.
+[1347.56 --> 1354.84]  And Tetris, the pieces of Tetris are very distinct and easy to see on the small screen.
+[1355.80 --> 1360.58]  And the gameplay doesn't lose when you go to the small device.
+[1360.58 --> 1368.48]  So Tetris is and still continues to be after, gosh, no, 20 years, the best mobile game out there.
+[1369.16 --> 1372.00]  But the future of Tetris, I think, is social.
+[1373.32 --> 1382.38]  We're working on a new version of Tetris where you play Tetris with your friends and you get to meet new people through Tetris.
+[1382.38 --> 1393.78]  And so by playing, you know, rather than playing solitaire and the word solitaire, if you listen to that word, solitaire is like the worst thing you could do to somebody.
+[1393.90 --> 1397.68]  You could send them to solitary confinement, which means that they're by themselves.
+[1397.76 --> 1398.82]  They don't get to talk to anybody.
+[1399.76 --> 1408.50]  And video games, by and large, traditionally have been people going off into their own little world and playing a video game by themselves.
+[1408.50 --> 1415.64]  But being by themselves is a little bit of a torture in a way because people need companionship.
+[1416.22 --> 1423.84]  And so going forward, Tetris and I think all video games will become social so that you're in there and you're never alone.
+[1423.96 --> 1431.06]  You're with your friends and they're competing against you or you're on the same team competing against other people.
+[1431.06 --> 1439.08]  So I think that that is the future of gaming and it's certainly the future of Tetris.
+[1439.48 --> 1446.56]  Is it something that Blue Planet Software and the Tetris company will do itself or will it license this out and you kind of play a part in that?
+[1446.86 --> 1454.02]  So we have licensed Tetris out to the, how can I say, the online industry.
+[1454.22 --> 1459.92]  We've got three licensees as we speak for different territories for online.
+[1461.06 --> 1471.74]  But I don't think any of them have really successfully made the transition from Tetris being a solo game to being a social game.
+[1472.38 --> 1484.54]  And so every once in a while when I think that things aren't going according to plan, so to speak, I roll up my sleeves and I start building a new product.
+[1484.54 --> 1486.38]  So that's what we're doing right now.
+[1486.52 --> 1490.64]  We're in the process of creating a new version of Tetris, which is social.
+[1491.06 --> 1492.40]  Was Tetris attack part of that social?
+[1492.56 --> 1496.44]  I remember in my research looking up some of the things on this conversation here.
+[1496.50 --> 1499.24]  The Tetris attack came out about two years ago in 2009.
+[1500.24 --> 1503.76]  Was that the social version of it or the version that you first started that?
+[1504.62 --> 1506.66]  Tetris attack or Tetris battle?
+[1507.10 --> 1511.88]  The versions that have come out so far, and they started in Korea because Korea is sort of like ahead of the curve.
+[1511.88 --> 1516.66]  They were the first ones to do Tetris on a large scale.
+[1516.66 --> 1525.76]  But if you look at Tetris the way it's done in Korea, it's a very adversarial way of playing the game.
+[1526.34 --> 1534.56]  You know, you and five other people get into a room and you form teams, either three on three, two on two on two, or everyone for himself.
+[1534.80 --> 1536.02]  And you duke it out.
+[1536.02 --> 1546.96]  And so that may be an interesting way of playing in Korea, but it's not the way people in general play social games.
+[1547.04 --> 1553.22]  So, for example, you're not duking it out with anybody in Farmville or any of those social games on Facebook.
+[1553.40 --> 1560.02]  You're basically showing off your accomplishments and you're helping your friends get ahead.
+[1560.02 --> 1562.56]  And the more friends you have helping you, the better off you are.
+[1562.76 --> 1567.20]  And that's the direction that we have to go in, and that's the direction we are going in.
+[1568.08 --> 1573.06]  I guess around the mobile gaming space, which is your favorite to play Tetris on?
+[1574.10 --> 1575.70]  On the mobile?
+[1577.02 --> 1580.94]  I guess my favorite is still the Game Boy.
+[1580.94 --> 1589.22]  You know, it's got the best controls for the device, for the device size.
+[1589.38 --> 1599.78]  You know, if you go to mobile phones themselves, the majority of them, for example, the, what they call feature phones, the pre-smartphone era.
+[1600.24 --> 1609.42]  The feature phones, you're playing on the keys, the number keys on your mobile phone, and they weren't designed to do that.
+[1609.42 --> 1610.96]  They were designed to make phone calls.
+[1611.76 --> 1614.74]  And so they're not game machine keys.
+[1614.90 --> 1624.18]  And now that we've gone to smartphones where you have the, you know, you touch and slide, it's interesting.
+[1624.94 --> 1625.94]  It's interesting.
+[1626.50 --> 1634.32]  But still, when you look at the 100% dedicated game machine like the Game Boy, they could have made that a slide screen.
+[1634.62 --> 1635.22]  But they didn't.
+[1635.22 --> 1639.30]  They still have the buttons in there as part of the form factor.
+[1639.52 --> 1643.00]  So being able to play with the original buttons.
+[1643.08 --> 1644.58]  Well, maybe call me old school, whatever.
+[1645.18 --> 1651.22]  But that's still easier for me to play with the little cross and then the left and right rotate.
+[1651.22 --> 1658.44]  Yeah, earlier when you mentioned the basic mechanics of Tetris, I was thinking about, I actually just bought the game on iPhone recently.
+[1658.96 --> 1660.98]  And the hard drop is super easy.
+[1661.22 --> 1668.26]  I kind of like how also that you can see the image of the piece down at the bottom where it will land, but you also see it falling at the same time.
+[1668.60 --> 1673.88]  But you can also grab that block and do that hard drop like you had mentioned before to get those extra points from top up.
+[1673.88 --> 1674.64]  Yeah, yeah.
+[1674.64 --> 1679.78]  I think the platforms like that, the touchscreen and this, you know, direct interface.
+[1679.90 --> 1685.22]  Are you saying that you favor the old school Game Boy versus this or is it just because it's a preference of you?
+[1685.76 --> 1687.90]  Well, I'm getting to be an old man.
+[1688.02 --> 1690.00]  I just became a grandfather.
+[1690.46 --> 1690.92]  Congratulations.
+[1691.72 --> 1692.42]  Thank you.
+[1692.42 --> 1708.42]  It's hard for me to get my game skill up to the point on the new screen, whereas my kids and everybody else in the world, the younger generation, they're much more adept at manipulating that kind of a screen than I am.
+[1708.56 --> 1710.00]  I'm just not, I didn't grow up with it.
+[1710.14 --> 1711.14]  That's what it is.
+[1711.14 --> 1714.62]  I mean, it's like inventing a new way of playing tennis.
+[1715.20 --> 1717.42]  It's hard for the older folks to catch up.
+[1717.42 --> 1722.04]  So at what point does Blue Lava Wireless play in this grand scheme?
+[1722.10 --> 1730.96]  We've talked about traveling the world and battling lawyers for licenses and defining the gaming mechanics and, you know, the whole entire spectrum of what Tetris is today.
+[1731.06 --> 1735.28]  How has, what role does Blue Lava Wireless play in this big story?
+[1735.74 --> 1743.06]  Yeah, so Blue Lava Wireless in, at the end of like around 1999, I think,
+[1743.06 --> 1750.68]  a friend of mine in Japan who started, was starting a new publishing company came to me and he said,
+[1751.24 --> 1755.90]  my publishing company is going to based on two, on one product.
+[1756.06 --> 1757.18]  It's going to be Tetris.
+[1758.04 --> 1763.46]  The other product that I think could make it is Pokemon, but Nintendo is never going to license Pokemon to me.
+[1763.76 --> 1765.26]  So I need Tetris from you.
+[1765.26 --> 1770.90]  And I'm willing to bet a third of the money that I raise to start this company to get the rights to Tetris.
+[1771.00 --> 1773.04]  So basically he made me an offer I couldn't refuse.
+[1773.84 --> 1776.50]  And by the way, everything he said came true.
+[1776.94 --> 1782.28]  That, that, that company went on to become the number one game company, mobile phone game company.
+[1782.90 --> 1784.72]  Tetris was their number one product.
+[1784.82 --> 1786.56]  It was probably half of their sales.
+[1787.10 --> 1792.26]  And with that ammunition in hand, I started looking around the U.S. for a licensee.
+[1792.80 --> 1795.80]  Okay, so who's going to be my mobile phone licensee?
+[1797.18 --> 1800.80]  And the biggest offer we got was $25,000.
+[1800.80 --> 1804.58]  That was a joke compared to what, what I got out of Japan.
+[1804.58 --> 1813.94]  And so what I realized at that moment is that nobody in the U.S. quite understood what was going to happen with mobile games, how big that was going to be.
+[1813.94 --> 1816.74]  So I decided to do it myself.
+[1816.94 --> 1820.60]  So again, I started another company called Blue Lava Wireless.
+[1820.96 --> 1823.32]  We started, I think, in 2002 here in Hawaii.
+[1823.32 --> 1832.90]  And basically, you know, I moved to Hawaii because I, I had some line on financing.
+[1833.64 --> 1834.72]  But you know what?
+[1834.80 --> 1839.58]  Six months into it, we were so close to profitability that we never needed the financing.
+[1839.58 --> 1844.48]  So we never, how can I say, took any outside money.
+[1844.56 --> 1845.58]  It was just my wife and I.
+[1846.36 --> 1848.30]  And we built a company and it was profitable.
+[1848.76 --> 1851.40]  And when we sold it, we were, we were still growing.
+[1852.10 --> 1858.86]  And I think that, that sell that you just mentioned happened around three and a half years later for a pretty, pretty high number too.
+[1858.92 --> 1859.60]  You want to mention that number?
+[1859.60 --> 1860.28]  Yeah.
+[1861.40 --> 1869.06]  You know, what you read in the newspaper is $137 million and $137 million came from Jamdat.
+[1869.56 --> 1874.24]  Four million of that was stock at $16 a share.
+[1875.06 --> 1881.74]  But a year later, Electronic Arts bought Jamdat and cashed in all my stock that I was holding.
+[1881.74 --> 1889.98]  And so the 40, the 44,000, I'm sorry, 4 million shares was valued at $27.
+[1891.00 --> 1895.60]  And so I, I think I made around $180 million all, all told.
+[1895.82 --> 1899.42]  You know, of course, there's other people with hands in the pockets and so on and so forth.
+[1899.50 --> 1901.20]  So, but it was still a good deal.
+[1901.66 --> 1903.88]  What was the early talks about with EA?
+[1903.98 --> 1905.16]  How did they come to you?
+[1905.28 --> 1906.66]  Were they, I don't know.
+[1906.66 --> 1914.54]  So I haven't been the, I guess, I haven't been the kind of person that's been so in-depth in the games to understand EA's history.
+[1914.66 --> 1917.80]  But I'd imagine that around 2005, they were pretty popular.
+[1917.92 --> 1921.10]  I mean, I played NHL 98 and all the other fun games like Madden and stuff.
+[1921.22 --> 1922.60]  But they were a pretty big player.
+[1922.68 --> 1923.74]  What did they come at you with?
+[1923.96 --> 1927.16]  And was it, was there any fun stories about EA and that, that approach?
+[1927.72 --> 1929.86]  Well, actually, it wasn't me that they came at.
+[1929.88 --> 1930.48]  It was Jamdat.
+[1930.48 --> 1935.62]  So basically, you know, I, I'm not day-to-day at Jamdat.
+[1935.90 --> 1938.60]  So, you know, I didn't have the company at that point.
+[1938.96 --> 1949.06]  So, but, you know, Electronic Arts, historically, just to give you some background, I published two of Nintendo, of Electronic Arts' first games in Japan.
+[1949.34 --> 1956.30]  That would be Mule and Archon in 19, gosh, 86, 87, 86, probably.
+[1956.30 --> 1961.52]  So I've been close to EA since their beginning.
+[1961.68 --> 1962.60]  They started after me.
+[1963.28 --> 1968.96]  And they tried to buy me twice in Japan so that I could become their Japanese, the Japan EA.
+[1969.66 --> 1970.80]  And twice I said no.
+[1970.94 --> 1972.44]  And both times I should have said yes.
+[1972.46 --> 1973.56]  I was an idiot back then.
+[1974.14 --> 1976.14]  I didn't know anything about selling companies.
+[1976.32 --> 1979.40]  I was still trying to hang on and trying, trying to do everything myself.
+[1979.52 --> 1980.72]  It's like having your first baby.
+[1980.88 --> 1982.68]  You, you watch it too carefully.
+[1982.90 --> 1985.56]  When you look back on that time, why do you say you should have said yes?
+[1985.56 --> 1987.26]  Because I would have had money.
+[1988.04 --> 1993.76]  Electronic Arts after that went public and, you know, my, whatever stock I got out of it would have been huge.
+[1993.82 --> 2000.88]  Just like Richard Garriott made his money by selling to, by selling to Electronic Arts Origin.
+[2001.22 --> 2004.94]  And, you know, that would, that could have been me, so to speak.
+[2005.20 --> 2006.14]  So what made you say no?
+[2006.76 --> 2007.50]  Oh, yeah.
+[2007.50 --> 2012.76]  Well, the first time I said no was because the U.S. had just gone through the Atari crash.
+[2013.44 --> 2016.92]  And I, I was looking at the future was going to be Nintendo.
+[2017.80 --> 2021.30]  And, uh, electronic, I talked to Electronic Arts about it.
+[2021.34 --> 2022.04]  I said, no, no, no.
+[2022.56 --> 2024.00]  There's no future in cartridges.
+[2024.00 --> 2026.22]  Because, because of what happened in the U.S.
+[2026.24 --> 2027.94]  I'm going to understand why they would say that.
+[2027.94 --> 2032.86]  But for me, my future of bulletproof software in Japan was heavily cartridge based.
+[2033.70 --> 2037.92]  And so that was the, the reason I said, uh, I said no the first time.
+[2038.16 --> 2040.42]  You know, I was negotiating with Trip Hawkins back then.
+[2040.88 --> 2045.06]  And, uh, I talked to him about this later and I said, you know, that's probably not true.
+[2045.16 --> 2049.84]  You, you could have convinced me, uh, to do cartridge and so on and so on and so forth.
+[2049.90 --> 2052.44]  But, uh, anyway, I said, no, I got cold feet.
+[2052.44 --> 2054.28]  And what about the second time?
+[2054.60 --> 2058.12]  The second time, um, I forget.
+[2058.70 --> 2062.42]  I just didn't want to, I, you know, I'd never worked for anybody.
+[2063.24 --> 2068.28]  And I, I could see that if they bought me, you know, there would be a, you got to run
+[2068.28 --> 2072.04]  the company for X number of years and report to us and so on and so forth.
+[2072.10 --> 2073.78]  And I, I'd never done that.
+[2073.80 --> 2079.40]  I'd never reported to anybody or no board of directors or no manager in some.
+[2079.40 --> 2084.26]  So I was kind of afraid of, of, uh, ending up having to run a company that somebody else
+[2084.26 --> 2085.24]  was telling me what to do.
+[2086.10 --> 2091.22]  That was a, that was the second time again, foolish, but that's my history.
+[2091.32 --> 2097.72]  I think the, not so much the best part of this, but I think from a, um, planetary culture
+[2097.72 --> 2102.20]  changing perspective on your story, I think one of the coolest things I like about this
+[2102.20 --> 2106.82]  is really what's come out of this from, um, that, uh, that you started the blue planet
+[2106.82 --> 2109.62]  foundation back there in Hawaii where you're at now.
+[2109.62 --> 2114.92]  Um, we talked about the funding and the sell to, uh, jammed out, which was ultimately taken
+[2114.92 --> 2118.00]  over by EA and you talked about how much money you made there.
+[2118.42 --> 2122.20]  Has all that money been fueled into what you're doing at blue planet?
+[2122.26 --> 2126.06]  And can you give kind of a quick overview of, of what you're doing there at blue planet
+[2126.06 --> 2126.54]  foundation?
+[2127.24 --> 2127.34]  Yeah.
+[2127.46 --> 2133.40]  So, um, just a quick overview of a month after I sold my, uh, blue lava wireless and made
+[2133.40 --> 2139.54]  all that money, I had a heart attack and I'm on the way to the, uh, I hadn't spent a nickel
+[2139.54 --> 2142.12]  and I'm lying in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.
+[2142.24 --> 2143.44]  I said, you gotta be kidding me.
+[2143.82 --> 2148.44]  You know, I haven't, I haven't really done what I really need to do with the money yet.
+[2148.64 --> 2153.24]  And, uh, so I'm looking at the ceiling and I'm saying to myself, I'm going to survive
+[2153.24 --> 2159.14]  this no matter what, if I have to hold my breath for 15 minutes, I will, because I have
+[2159.14 --> 2159.78]  stuff to do.
+[2159.78 --> 2162.48]  And then I got to thinking about that afterwards.
+[2162.66 --> 2163.64]  Of course I survived it.
+[2164.28 --> 2166.50]  Uh, I have two stents and it's, it's great.
+[2166.54 --> 2167.18]  I'm back to normal.
+[2167.88 --> 2173.42]  Um, I, I got a chance to spend a couple of weeks thinking about what I want to do before
+[2173.42 --> 2173.96]  I die.
+[2174.42 --> 2176.50]  And I found my four missions in life.
+[2176.78 --> 2179.20]  And my first mission is to end the use of carbon based fuel.
+[2179.66 --> 2183.88]  And to that end, I started the blue planet foundation, which is working to end the use
+[2183.88 --> 2187.52]  of carbon based fuel starting in Hawaii, because guess what?
+[2187.52 --> 2191.00]  Uh, Hawaii has all the alternative energy that it could possibly want.
+[2191.12 --> 2195.88]  It has wind, it has solar, it has geothermal, it has ocean thermal energy conversion.
+[2196.02 --> 2199.94]  It has God knows every kind of, uh, alternative energy.
+[2200.10 --> 2205.70]  And we have the highest price of, of, uh, fossil fuel of anywhere in the world because we have
+[2205.70 --> 2206.80]  to ship it the farthest.
+[2207.02 --> 2213.46]  It, it gets, uh, barged here and we, we pay the highest electricity, the highest gasoline,
+[2213.46 --> 2217.06]  uh, prices of anywhere in the country, not in the world, but in the country.
+[2217.68 --> 2224.72]  So Hawaii is right to make the, the change over from fossil fuel to alternative energy.
+[2224.94 --> 2231.68]  And we might as well go all the way and go and say, uh, from fossil fuel to non carbon
+[2231.68 --> 2233.40]  based alternative energy.
+[2233.40 --> 2239.38]  And so the blue planet foundation is, I'm going to give the, the, I guess the one liner,
+[2239.52 --> 2243.66]  I suppose it's a local nonprofit organization and you'd say the best committed to ending
+[2243.66 --> 2248.70]  the use of fossil fuels on earth and starting in Hawaii because of all these resources already
+[2248.70 --> 2252.22]  there that, uh, that they should be, should be using.
+[2252.94 --> 2258.54]  Why do you think it's, I mean, some big reasons obviously with, um, politics and the cost
+[2258.54 --> 2264.00]  of fuel, but bigger than that, why do you feel that, uh, this is now your sole mission
+[2264.00 --> 2267.00]  or the biggest mission beyond Tetris for you?
+[2267.56 --> 2270.06]  It's, it's, it's my, it's my first mission.
+[2270.28 --> 2277.22]  Uh, and the reason is, is because in my lifetime we can do this thing and, and it's, it's totally
+[2277.22 --> 2279.58]  doable just like the industrial revolution.
+[2280.16 --> 2285.44]  You know, if you look back on it, pre-industrial revolution and post-industrial revolution, how big
+[2285.44 --> 2286.94]  of a change that made to the world.
+[2287.50 --> 2293.94]  And, you know, now we, we mentioned the guy who invented steam and so on and so forth as,
+[2294.04 --> 2298.74]  as being heroes in that, in that time period, but it didn't take that long and it spread
+[2298.74 --> 2299.42]  through the world.
+[2299.58 --> 2303.00]  And that's kind of what I'm looking to do with, uh, alternative energy.
+[2303.12 --> 2308.68]  And the reasons for it is, uh, one is we have no idea what we're doing to the climate.
+[2309.00 --> 2312.54]  I mean, you could, you could be on one side of the political fence.
+[2312.54 --> 2315.34]  By the way, this political fence only exists in this country.
+[2315.58 --> 2319.20]  If you look at the rest of the countries on the planet, they're looking at the U S and
+[2319.20 --> 2321.98]  say, how can this be in a, a political issue?
+[2321.98 --> 2325.22]  It's a, it's a science, it's a scientific issue.
+[2325.36 --> 2329.44]  Just go out there, measure the temperature of the ocean and find out that it's getting
+[2329.44 --> 2329.84]  warmer.
+[2329.98 --> 2333.32]  And that's gotta be bad for, for the way things are.
+[2333.46 --> 2337.84]  Things are going to change in ways that we don't even know yet, but that's what's just
+[2337.84 --> 2338.62]  one side of it.
+[2338.62 --> 2344.56]  The second part of it, carbon dioxide goes into the ocean and it causes acidification
+[2344.56 --> 2345.20]  of the ocean.
+[2345.66 --> 2351.54]  And what it's doing is it's taking, it's making it harder and harder for, uh, marine
+[2351.54 --> 2357.04]  animals that use carbon like coral, like shellfish to survive.
+[2357.20 --> 2363.68]  And so effectively we could be killing all of the coral by the end of this century by
+[2363.68 --> 2365.44]  continuing on the path that we're on.
+[2365.44 --> 2366.62]  Um, that's nuts.
+[2367.06 --> 2368.44]  That's a third of our food supply.
+[2368.54 --> 2370.68]  That's that sort of coral based.
+[2371.12 --> 2376.08]  Uh, it's just going to cause so much trouble that we, we haven't even figured out yet.
+[2376.18 --> 2379.76]  It's not just about, uh, about pretty fish and all that.
+[2379.84 --> 2382.62]  It's about a whole ecosystem that we're ready here to wipe out.
+[2383.28 --> 2386.58]  Um, but then, but look at fossil fuel, look at oil.
+[2387.38 --> 2393.18]  Um, Iraq, Afghanistan, this whole, all these wars and the trillions of dollars that we're
+[2393.18 --> 2399.28]  spending on these wars, uh, killing people and having them kill us is all to maintain
+[2399.28 --> 2400.86]  our oil supply.
+[2401.42 --> 2404.88]  Uh, if we didn't need oil, those wars would not have happened.
+[2405.10 --> 2411.72]  So why can't we just get over it and move on to the next phase of, of, uh, mankind?
+[2412.00 --> 2414.12]  Well, we don't do that.
+[2414.24 --> 2415.14]  We don't have to.
+[2415.14 --> 2418.54]  You mentioned four points and, uh, we got, uh, we got the one.
+[2418.62 --> 2419.18]  What are the other three?
+[2419.64 --> 2423.30]  Uh, my second, uh, second mission is to end war.
+[2424.22 --> 2425.78]  And I think they go hand in hand.
+[2425.90 --> 2430.26]  If you relieve some of this tension in the world, then war becomes unnecessary.
+[2430.72 --> 2434.34]  The third one is to make a backup of, uh, life on earth.
+[2434.86 --> 2440.96]  Uh, we got hit 65 million years ago by a big rock from space that wiped out the dinosaurs.
+[2440.96 --> 2444.88]  A big rock from space could wipe us out next very easily.
+[2445.42 --> 2447.16]  So we need to, we need to make a backup.
+[2447.40 --> 2451.80]  And I think Mars is the easiest place and the nearest place where we can actually make a backup.
+[2452.02 --> 2454.56]  So we need, uh, an effective space program.
+[2454.68 --> 2455.64]  We need to go to Mars.
+[2455.82 --> 2457.72]  We need to terraform Mars.
+[2457.90 --> 2461.86]  We may, we need to make Mars like an, turn it into another earth.
+[2462.02 --> 2463.20]  It's just a matter of time.
+[2463.30 --> 2464.36]  I live on the big Island.
+[2464.54 --> 2468.68]  You watch the coastal, uh, uh, lava, lava rock.
+[2468.76 --> 2470.76]  They've changed that into a tropical paradise.
+[2470.76 --> 2473.70]  They just grind up the rock, make golf courses out of it.
+[2474.04 --> 2475.58]  So we can do it here.
+[2475.68 --> 2476.38]  We can do it there.
+[2476.42 --> 2478.40]  It's just a matter of time and engineering.
+[2478.78 --> 2482.88]  And the, uh, the fourth one, I had no idea where, why I have this mission.
+[2483.46 --> 2488.16]  Uh, but it was there and I followed my heart and it's to figure out how the universe ends.
+[2488.48 --> 2492.00]  You know, one way of looking at it is the universe ends next week.
+[2492.06 --> 2494.62]  Maybe I don't have to work so hard on my first three missions.
+[2494.62 --> 2501.08]  Um, but I think that if we find out the true nature of the universe, that will be another
+[2501.08 --> 2502.28]  fundamental change.
+[2502.40 --> 2509.94]  Maybe it'll give us, you know, boundless free energy or, or some kind of a, something new.
+[2509.94 --> 2516.22]  I mean, uh, when we first discovered, uh, E equals MC squared, that gave us nuclear energy.
+[2516.22 --> 2517.92]  I mean, that changed the world completely.
+[2517.92 --> 2523.26]  And that's sort of figuring out the universe, uh, how it ends, uh, or how, you know, what's
+[2523.26 --> 2524.52]  the true nature of the universe.
+[2525.04 --> 2528.02]  Um, that sort of goes hand in hand with that.
+[2528.02 --> 2533.18]  And so is it by any ironic nature that you created a game called blue Mars?
+[2533.86 --> 2535.44]  No, absolutely not.
+[2535.80 --> 2536.54]  That's right.
+[2536.68 --> 2539.08]  That's right in, uh, mission number three.
+[2539.08 --> 2545.56]  Uh, so we're creating a, a, a platform so that people can go and, and build things on
+[2545.56 --> 2551.02]  Mars and sort of get used to the idea of, yeah, we can go there and do whatever we want.
+[2551.08 --> 2554.88]  And that's sort of, uh, what I want people today to understand.
+[2554.88 --> 2558.76]  And that's, I'm sure what people in the future will be doing.
+[2559.20 --> 2561.68]  And how, how, uh, how old is blue planet foundation?
+[2562.20 --> 2565.62]  Blue planet foundation is, uh, probably four years old now.
+[2565.90 --> 2568.52]  What are some of the bigger accomplishments that you've achieved?
+[2568.64 --> 2573.90]  I guess so far on not just your four point list, but in general in the, in the foundations
+[2573.90 --> 2575.46]  list in the foundation.
+[2575.62 --> 2575.78]  Yeah.
+[2575.90 --> 2584.82]  So, um, we, we changed like a hundred thousand light bulbs from, uh, from incandescent
+[2584.82 --> 2585.82]  to compact fluorescent.
+[2586.12 --> 2589.94]  We pretty much changed all the light bulbs on the Island of Molokai and we're still changing
+[2589.94 --> 2590.16]  them.
+[2590.16 --> 2592.44]  Um, that has a direct impact.
+[2592.44 --> 2598.58]  Each light bulb that you change saves a tremendous amount of electricity, which in Hawaii translates
+[2598.58 --> 2601.20]  to less burning of fossil fuel.
+[2602.20 --> 2604.52]  Um, we have passed laws.
+[2604.70 --> 2610.00]  Uh, we passed a law saying that every new house that gets built in Hawaii has to have a
+[2610.00 --> 2611.18]  solar hot water heater.
+[2611.54 --> 2618.08]  40% of all residential electricity for houses that don't have solar, uh, hot water heaters
+[2618.08 --> 2619.62]  goes to heating water.
+[2619.72 --> 2625.94]  So that if you have a solar hot water heater, that's 40% less, a 40% less electricity that
+[2625.94 --> 2627.16]  you need in your house.
+[2627.80 --> 2635.00]  Um, we passed a number of, uh, of electric car legislation so that it makes it more attractive,
+[2635.00 --> 2639.36]  uh, for someone to own a, and operate in an electric car in Hawaii.
+[2640.12 --> 2645.60]  Um, we have, we passed the barrel tax, the first barrel tax in the, in the nation.
+[2645.80 --> 2652.58]  Basically for every barrel that's in of oil that's imported into Hawaii, uh, it gets taxed
+[2652.58 --> 2656.16]  a dollar and that dollar goes to alternative energy projects.
+[2656.86 --> 2660.60]  Um, we work with the PNC, PUC, we intervene.
+[2660.60 --> 2665.72]  So we've been working, uh, between the PUC and electric company on a host of different
+[2665.72 --> 2666.18]  things.
+[2666.82 --> 2672.02]  Um, basically if there's anything going on in Hawaii that has to do with alternative
+[2672.02 --> 2675.48]  energy, we're in, in the middle of that conversation.
+[2675.80 --> 2678.28]  I love how this is all fueled by Tetris really.
+[2678.68 --> 2678.92]  Yeah.
+[2679.34 --> 2679.58]  Right.
+[2679.64 --> 2680.80]  I mean, that's where your story started.
+[2681.08 --> 2685.02]  You actually, before we got on the call, you'd mentioned that you actually went to Japan
+[2685.02 --> 2685.72]  chasing a woman.
+[2685.82 --> 2689.24]  So I guess we should really think love really ultimately, right?
+[2689.24 --> 2692.48]  You chase love and Tetris.
+[2692.86 --> 2693.50]  I chase love.
+[2693.92 --> 2694.10]  Yeah.
+[2694.32 --> 2696.86]  So that woman is my wife and we have four children now.
+[2697.08 --> 2699.54]  And she also helped you do all these fun things together.
+[2699.64 --> 2700.68]  So you're, you're really a team.
+[2701.36 --> 2701.80]  Absolutely.
+[2702.08 --> 2702.56]  Absolutely.
+[2702.72 --> 2704.00]  She's been there all the way.
+[2704.06 --> 2708.44]  You know, she let me basically work on my first game for nine months without having a
+[2708.44 --> 2708.78]  job.
+[2709.04 --> 2711.52]  And that ultimately led to my first company.
+[2711.52 --> 2714.60]  So she put up with me while having three kids.
+[2714.70 --> 2720.10]  And I was basically living with my in-laws while I made my first computer game.
+[2720.76 --> 2723.10]  So yeah, it's, it wouldn't have happened without her.
+[2723.64 --> 2724.40]  So we could thank love.
+[2724.72 --> 2725.22]  There you go.
+[2725.42 --> 2726.34]  I love, I love that.
+[2726.42 --> 2731.50]  And, and obviously, uh, Alexi and Tetris and, and everything that you guys had done there
+[2731.50 --> 2733.18]  in that, in that, uh, that journey.
+[2733.28 --> 2735.78]  But last question, I know we've been on the call for a bit.
+[2735.82 --> 2737.42]  We're, we're at around 45 minutes.
+[2737.42 --> 2741.22]  I asked you for a half hour, but it's been, um, an honor to speak with you.
+[2741.28 --> 2744.30]  But the next question I have really is one I'd love to ask.
+[2744.44 --> 2749.46]  What is, uh, on your radar in terms of, of, uh, super secretness?
+[2749.50 --> 2754.94]  Like, is there anything going on in the next horizon of Blue Planet Foundation, um, Tetris,
+[2755.08 --> 2758.12]  the Tetris company, anything whatsoever that's like super secret?
+[2758.12 --> 2761.46]  You haven't told anybody that you can announce here on the show today.
+[2762.94 --> 2766.60]  Uh, gosh, you should have asked me that before.
+[2766.60 --> 2767.86]  I could have prepared for something.
+[2768.72 --> 2777.54]  Um, I have up my sleeve in Blue Mars, a, a new way of making role-playing games.
+[2777.74 --> 2779.44]  I call it the adventure engine.
+[2780.30 --> 2782.40]  Um, let's put it this way.
+[2782.40 --> 2791.78]  It will enable, um, ordinary people like people who write stories or who want to be, uh, role-playing
+[2791.78 --> 2797.08]  game level designers or so on to make their own, to easily make their own role-playing
+[2797.08 --> 2798.36]  game inside of Blue Mars.
+[2798.72 --> 2806.46]  And so that will open up, um, the world of, of game design or interactive fiction design
+[2806.46 --> 2814.46]  to a lot of people who are sort of being corralled into groups like a World of Warcraft, you know,
+[2815.32 --> 2816.20]  big teams.
+[2816.20 --> 2819.70]  So they'll be able to do it on their own, pretty much like the way people make stuff
+[2819.70 --> 2820.38]  for the app store.
+[2820.78 --> 2823.16]  So app store makes role-playing games.
+[2823.34 --> 2825.40]  That's my, it's called the adventure engine.
+[2825.80 --> 2830.24]  And ultimately Blue Mars is, uh, is helping you hit point number three, which is to replicate
+[2830.24 --> 2833.74]  life here on earth and move to Mars, or at least give us a backup.
+[2834.66 --> 2834.94]  Yeah.
+[2835.32 --> 2836.40]  We're in the software business.
+[2836.50 --> 2837.26]  You make backups.
+[2837.42 --> 2837.60]  Hello.
+[2838.06 --> 2839.08]  It should be obvious.
+[2839.18 --> 2839.32]  Yeah.
+[2839.32 --> 2844.18]  I mean, I love how this idea though, is that I think this Blue Mars idea and the gaming
+[2844.18 --> 2848.80]  and there's obviously that super secret that you just mentioned just now is, uh, is huge
+[2848.80 --> 2854.72]  because what you're really doing is you're, is you're opening people's on a large scale,
+[2854.72 --> 2863.74]  people's minds to being able to provide life or create life or, uh, enable life on Mars.
+[2863.74 --> 2868.30]  I think that's, and I think you'd mentioned Tetris's next level is social gaming.
+[2868.30 --> 2873.52]  And obviously you're taking the idea of taking us to Mars to a social spectrum with, with,
+[2873.62 --> 2874.40]  uh, with Blue Mars.
+[2874.50 --> 2879.54]  And you're even opening up bigger with, um, with this, uh, what was it called again?
+[2879.64 --> 2884.44]  That was the new, the engine, the adventure engine, adventure engine.
+[2885.06 --> 2885.90]  That's very cool.
+[2886.22 --> 2888.78]  Well, Hank, it was more than an honor to speak with you.
+[2888.82 --> 2892.94]  I mean, I'm sitting here just thinking, I just had a 45 minute conversation with someone
+[2892.94 --> 2895.86]  who changed the world in a massive way and will continue to change the world in a massive
+[2895.86 --> 2896.18]  way.
+[2896.18 --> 2898.44]  And it's been an honor to have you on the show today.
+[2898.66 --> 2901.24]  And I thank you so much before we go.
+[2901.32 --> 2905.64]  Is there any way you can mention a few links or Twitter, Facebook, something like that.
+[2905.64 --> 2908.64]  So people can get involved or learn more about Blue Planet Foundation and what you're doing
+[2908.64 --> 2911.00]  with Tetris, um, and how you're changing the world.
+[2911.08 --> 2911.86]  Is there anything you want to mention?
+[2912.40 --> 2914.88]  Yes, please go to blue planet foundation.
+[2914.88 --> 2915.82]  That's one word.
+[2916.40 --> 2916.84]  Dot org.
+[2916.94 --> 2917.52]  O R G.
+[2918.26 --> 2919.52]  And find out what we're doing.
+[2919.52 --> 2924.30]  Uh, we're doing it in Hawaii because we're in Hawaii and we believe that we need to clean
+[2924.30 --> 2928.06]  our own room before we ask other people to clean up their rooms.
+[2928.06 --> 2932.12]  But we'll be coming to your part of the world and ask you to help clean your part of the
+[2932.12 --> 2932.66]  world as well.
+[2932.66 --> 2933.02]  Okay.
+[2933.66 --> 2936.06]  Again, Hank, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show.
+[2936.14 --> 2938.42]  I really, really appreciate you taking the time to be here.
+[2938.80 --> 2939.24]  You're welcome.
+[2939.52 --> 2940.46]  Nice to talk to you, Adam.
+[2940.66 --> 2941.06]  Thank you.
+[2949.52 --> 2979.50]  Thank you.

Lance Jones and Joanna Wiebe ⧸ Page 99 Test_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,476 @@
+[0.00 --> 4.12]  This is Founders Talk, an interview podcast hosted by me, Adam Stachowiak.
+[4.62 --> 7.66]  We profile founders building businesses both online as well as offline.
+[8.06 --> 11.32]  You can find this podcast and many more at 5by5.tv.
+[11.60 --> 16.12]  Today's guests are the awesome founders behind Page99test.com.
+[16.22 --> 19.36]  I've got Lance Jones and Joanna Wiebe on the phone here.
+[19.48 --> 22.42]  They're here and they want to say hi, so go ahead and say hi, Lance and Jonah.
+[23.46 --> 24.34]  Hi, everyone.
+[25.10 --> 26.12]  Hey, Adam. Nice to be here.
+[26.12 --> 30.12]  So you guys started this awesome website called Page99test.com.
+[30.12 --> 33.72]  Well, you have started it, but it hasn't officially launched yet.
+[34.12 --> 39.34]  Lance, why don't you introduce yourself, maybe a bit about who you are, and Joanna, maybe you can go after him.
+[40.16 --> 47.54]  Sure. So, yeah, my name is Lance Jones, and I work as a website experience manager.
+[47.72 --> 51.74]  It's my day job for Intuit in Canada.
+[51.74 --> 58.56]  And this past summer, Joanna and I were discussing some ideas for a little startup.
+[58.70 --> 65.74]  We'd experimented with a couple of ideas two years ago, and we'd been looking for something new to work on together.
+[66.88 --> 70.76]  And so Joanna actually had this idea for Page99test.
+[70.92 --> 76.22]  We batted some things around initially, and then we got moving pretty quickly.
+[76.22 --> 88.24]  And so I really started to run with taking the concept that Joanna had presented and building it out into something that would work on the web and maybe, you know, translated to a good business.
+[88.76 --> 93.26]  And Joanna and I have been working on that along with our third co-founder, Stephen, ever since.
+[94.22 --> 95.94]  And so what's your story, Joanna?
+[95.94 --> 105.74]  My story is, yeah, well, as you said, Joanna Weeb, I've been a web writer for about seven years now.
+[105.84 --> 108.52]  So that's kind of where my background is on the web.
+[108.56 --> 113.26]  And as Lance mentioned, we worked on other side projects outside of our day job.
+[113.72 --> 116.04]  I also work at Intuit in the day.
+[116.56 --> 117.40]  Love Intuit.
+[117.40 --> 133.38]  And, yeah, I guess that's really it for me, except that recently I wrote a manuscript for a young adult fiction novel, and I signed with an agent out of New York.
+[133.38 --> 143.92]  And we're working on edits to it still, and that's kind of in part where we came up with the idea, at least, or put together the pieces for the idea for Page99test.com.
+[143.92 --> 151.44]  So you're a writer, and you love books, obviously, and somehow you stumbled on this idea of Page99test.
+[151.50 --> 153.18]  This isn't a brand new idea, though.
+[153.22 --> 157.64]  There was a fellow named Ford, Max, Maddox Ford, I guess, right?
+[157.70 --> 165.88]  He kind of came up with this idea of opening up a book and turning it to Page99, and it was this awesome premise to choose whether or not you wanted to continue to read.
+[166.00 --> 171.38]  How much did that play into, obviously, the name and the idea of this concept?
+[171.90 --> 173.74]  Yeah, I think that's a great question.
+[173.92 --> 182.02]  There have been, I guess, throughout the last 100 years even, maybe, there have been a lot of suggestions about the best way to sample a book.
+[182.12 --> 189.36]  And you hear about Marshall McLuhan said to use Page69, and others have said to use Page27, and it goes on and on.
+[189.58 --> 197.82]  I actually didn't even realize until about a year ago, I guess, that it was Ford, Maddox Ford, who first said that about the Page99 test, or said, you know, open the book to Page99.
+[197.82 --> 209.58]  It was when I was in university about eight, nine, ten years ago in undergrad, where I was walking through a bookstore.
+[209.70 --> 214.10]  It was one of my friends at the time, and we opened up books.
+[214.10 --> 220.24]  We were both English majors, and I was, like, flipping through a book that I just picked up, and he said, well, check out Page99.
+[220.90 --> 228.32]  And he explained Page99 test to me at that time, and I've been using it passionately ever since to check out every book.
+[228.66 --> 234.24]  When I go into a bookstore, obviously, you can't do it online at this point, except for on Page99test.com.
+[234.24 --> 244.70]  So that's kind of where the idea came from, and then, of course, over the last year or so, you know, it's just kind of come around, and we learned that it was, you know, originally Ford, Maddox Ford, who said this.
+[244.74 --> 253.24]  And, of course, he's a great modernist writer, and I loved modernism when I was an undergrad student, so it all kind of just fits nicely together.
+[253.24 --> 265.98]  I would also add that, you know, that having that quote, I believe, was made by Ford, Maddox Ford in 1939, and it's kind of a, I don't know, pre-validation or post-validation of the idea.
+[266.18 --> 273.36]  It's nice to be able to piggyback this web application on top of something that was said, you know, 80 years ago.
+[273.74 --> 277.30]  And I had never heard of this test or the saying or the quote.
+[277.30 --> 283.58]  I typically read nonfiction business books and computer books, so I had no idea that this was out there.
+[283.78 --> 288.06]  So I was really – Joanna really had to explain the idea to me.
+[288.14 --> 292.84]  I mean, it was not a difficult concept to get, but she had to explain it in full to me because I'd never heard of it before.
+[293.36 --> 293.58]  Yeah.
+[294.50 --> 296.74]  And I guess, what is this doing for writers, I guess?
+[296.74 --> 302.08]  I mean, obviously, you open up a book to Page99, and as a reader, you decide whether you do or don't like it.
+[302.08 --> 310.64]  What does that really do for authors in terms of what Page99test.com is going to do for authors or even just, you know, want to be authors or that kind of people?
+[311.68 --> 311.84]  Yeah.
+[312.10 --> 315.32]  Well, and I guess there are a few ways to answer that.
+[315.50 --> 324.08]  Obviously, Page99test – well, maybe not obviously, but just so you know, Page99test is for published, self-published, and unpublished writers.
+[324.68 --> 327.46]  So it works differently for each of those groups.
+[327.46 --> 330.62]  It works the same, but it has, I guess, different results for each of those groups.
+[330.62 --> 331.62]  Yeah.
+[335.62 --> 340.58]  As for what it does for the writers, I'm pausing like I don't know, but I'm just trying to word it properly.
+[341.46 --> 348.36]  It's really a matter of – I mean, I guess we could say, and I think this was written about at one point in The Guardian, too,
+[348.36 --> 360.36]  that any great book, you should be able to open the book to any page in a really well-written book with a great story, great pacing, great tension, all of that.
+[361.00 --> 366.08]  You should be able to open it to any page, and the page should really kind of, you know, grab you.
+[366.14 --> 369.70]  It doesn't have to blow you away, but it should grab you.
+[369.70 --> 373.22]  And so that's kind of what we're testing, right?
+[373.70 --> 377.18]  Is a book good enough to grab you?
+[377.28 --> 382.54]  And, of course, we could have said – we could have called it, you know, the any page test or the random sample test,
+[382.78 --> 386.02]  but it was, of course, Page99 test because we've always – I've been doing that for so long.
+[386.02 --> 395.78]  So what the writer gets out of that is kind of, in many cases at least, validation about if their book is a page-turner or not.
+[396.72 --> 401.36]  And that's what a published writer will get, and I guess unpublished will and self-published as well, too.
+[401.48 --> 408.82]  But, of course, unpublished writers can take that feedback and actually start using it to revise their full manuscript.
+[408.82 --> 415.90]  So if I'm a writer and I upload Page99 of my unpublished manuscript to Page99test.com,
+[416.52 --> 419.66]  let's say 50 readers come along and give me general feedback.
+[419.94 --> 425.24]  Yes, in some cases those will be, like, little bits of feedback, like, oh, I liked the writing or, oh, this didn't grab me.
+[425.28 --> 427.70]  And that's not that satisfying, potentially.
+[427.84 --> 433.64]  But then there will be, you know, other cases where you keep seeing the same things come up in the reader feedback.
+[433.76 --> 436.58]  Like, I just – I don't understand the language that you're using.
+[436.58 --> 441.38]  Or something as simple as, oh, the names are really strange for this novel.
+[441.62 --> 443.42]  Like, it made it hard for me to get into.
+[443.66 --> 450.56]  And that's all legitimate feedback that a reader would have in a bookstore if they opened the book and read your Page99.
+[450.86 --> 455.74]  And they'd very well – they would very likely just put that book back down if it didn't grab them.
+[455.74 --> 464.08]  So a reader gets to know without having to publish, without having to really put themselves out there in any real way outside of uploading this page,
+[464.76 --> 467.68]  if they've got something great on their hands and if they don't.
+[468.14 --> 470.58]  And I think that's just plain valuable feedback for any writer.
+[470.86 --> 473.06]  I think you see this kind of happening a lot out there, too.
+[473.14 --> 476.42]  There's this website with three Bs, I believe it is.
+[476.42 --> 490.38]  It's Dribbble.com for designers and you kind of dribble out your design concepts and you can get some feedback from your peers and kind of get a sense from, you know, like-minded peers whether or not you're going in the right direction or whether it's good stuff.
+[490.38 --> 500.38]  So this is more or less becoming, you know, the best place, I guess, really to get the cream of the crop writers and whatnot out there to show their best,
+[500.50 --> 508.60]  but also get that feedback, too, so they can take that back to the drawing board and obviously come up with something a little bit better to, you know, to actually really publish.
+[510.44 --> 510.84]  Exactly.
+[511.20 --> 515.92]  Yeah, I mean, we've likened this interesting concept to a few sites.
+[516.20 --> 517.52]  Dribbble is an excellent example.
+[517.52 --> 527.62]  I mean, that's only, I believe, 230 pixel square that the designers post, and so it's not anywhere near a full page, and yet they're looking for sort of first impression feedback.
+[528.26 --> 538.90]  Same thing would go for, if you think back a few years, you know, the hot or not, looking at people's photos and giving a quick, you know, rating of 1 to 10 on how hot or not this person is.
+[539.16 --> 540.22]  It's first impressions.
+[540.40 --> 546.52]  You don't know anything about this person, but what grabs you, you know, and everyone has different tastes, so it's kind of fun to play with that.
+[546.52 --> 563.36]  Another site that we've used in our day jobs, I guess, is called the 5 Second Test, and that is, you know, basically a company or a person that has a website can upload a page or, you know, send the URL in for their homepage or something,
+[563.36 --> 569.12]  and then people see that homepage, and they have to give their initial reactions.
+[569.28 --> 572.32]  In five seconds, what do you remember about this page?
+[572.40 --> 573.54]  What grabbed you about this page?
+[573.64 --> 578.46]  And it's very, very similar to what we're doing here with page 99.
+[578.62 --> 579.66]  It's about first impressions.
+[579.84 --> 589.76]  You can't, we don't expect that people can truly judge the quality of a book by one page, but it really is about, does this make you want to turn the page?
+[589.76 --> 593.08]  Does it grab you in some way that it would spur you on?
+[593.22 --> 597.92]  And that's the feedback we want to get, you know, writers, is those first impressions.
+[598.06 --> 606.76]  And we've got plans for the site that are going to expand from one page to more pages so that you could get a much better assessment or make a better assessment of the book.
+[607.28 --> 611.50]  But the one page is quick hits, first impressions, and fun.
+[611.50 --> 619.20]  Yeah, and that's kind of what's, I think, really key there is this quick hits thing, which is, you know, five-second test only gives you five seconds to look at it.
+[619.30 --> 620.78]  And that's a good thing.
+[620.84 --> 625.10]  That's a good thing for everybody involved in it, just to get that quick impression.
+[625.96 --> 634.98]  For readers who are coming online and just want to discover new books, you know, because we have published and unpublished, so it's a great way to do book discovery as well.
+[634.98 --> 647.10]  Well, the idea of sitting there and reading through this lengthy sample, for people today, I just, I mean, I'm a reader and I don't want to read, I mean, I'd be quickly fatigued by having to read too many pages.
+[647.78 --> 651.52]  And there are other sites that let you upload, like, a full manuscript and stuff like that.
+[651.52 --> 655.14]  And I just, that's not a model that we're interested in.
+[655.32 --> 657.42]  We want, let's do it fast, right?
+[657.70 --> 663.18]  Hit them pretty quickly with a small sample of a book, see if it grabs them, move on to the next one.
+[663.28 --> 677.52]  So it's less fatiguing and potentially more engaging for readers who really want to discover a new book that they didn't, in a genre that they love, that they couldn't otherwise discover without someone walking them over to a book and saying, here, look at this one.
+[677.52 --> 680.52]  It's kind of like stumble upon for books, really.
+[680.60 --> 682.76]  I mean, you can kind of just sift through a bunch of books.
+[682.86 --> 685.16]  It can kind of get addictive where you just read a couple pages.
+[685.28 --> 685.84]  Yeah, I like it.
+[685.88 --> 686.54]  Yeah, I like it.
+[687.18 --> 688.20]  Or no, I don't.
+[688.26 --> 690.02]  And elicit some good feedback to the authors.
+[690.16 --> 702.14]  It seems like it's really can become a very fun, addictive way to get a good grasp of many, many books, maybe in a certain genre you're looking for or a certain kind of artist style or even related artists.
+[702.74 --> 704.20]  Or not artists, but authors.
+[704.54 --> 705.00]  Same difference.
+[705.00 --> 705.24]  Great.
+[705.64 --> 705.88]  Yeah.
+[705.88 --> 719.14]  If you – what's particularly interesting, we think, about this site, and we've heard feedback to this effect, is that because we allow – well, there's really three types of writing that we'll end up on here.
+[719.26 --> 722.58]  There's unpublished, and then there's published.
+[723.18 --> 729.54]  And so there's also self-published, but let me just talk to actual traditionally published books that are on the shelves.
+[729.54 --> 740.38]  We also will be allowing those writers, those authors to upload page 99 from a published book, let's say from some of the more popular – Jonathan Franzen's latest book.
+[740.64 --> 743.32]  If he so – if you wanted to, he could upload page 99.
+[743.32 --> 743.66]  Yeah.
+[743.66 --> 746.06]  Not that we expect him to or Stephanie Meyer.
+[746.06 --> 752.10]  But we've also got the ability to upload potentially thousands of page 99s from the classics.
+[752.10 --> 762.50]  So where the copyright has expired, you can go to gutenberg.org, and we can basically pick up those pages and put them on our site because of that expired copyright.
+[762.50 --> 779.48]  And what's very interesting is you – as a reader, you're going through these page 99s, and you don't know if you're looking at something that is a published classic like Treasure Island or Little Women or something that's just been written by somebody last week who's an aspiring author.
+[780.02 --> 788.32]  And you have to be careful with the type of feedback you give because when you click – when you say, I would turn the page or I wouldn't, and you say, there's no way I'd buy this book and give some negative feedback.
+[788.32 --> 795.18]  When you click that submit button, you get to see other people's feedback, and you also get to see what the book is and who the author is.
+[795.30 --> 806.16]  And so if you've just panned or slammed a classic, you might be kind of shocked and maybe even a little embarrassed by your feedback, and you're going to think twice about it.
+[806.18 --> 809.66]  So it keeps people on their toes having that mix of published and unpublished.
+[809.66 --> 826.02]  Yeah, and especially compared to if this was just a site for unpublished writers, I know for a fact – I'm glad we're not doing it that way – the feedback would very likely be much more critical without being constructive criticism.
+[826.58 --> 831.94]  Because I've been in writing groups before, and I've been on other sites that do let unpublished writers upload stuff.
+[832.00 --> 835.02]  And, of course, everybody has an opinion about what makes writing great.
+[835.02 --> 849.98]  It's so subjective, but when it really comes down to it, if you're just reading page 99 and just being honest about how you're assessing it, then you shouldn't be too embarrassed to turn the page and find that you voted it down, but others voted out.
+[850.06 --> 853.82]  But it happens to be Treasure Island, and it's sold millions of copies or whatever.
+[853.82 --> 866.32]  Yeah, we've seen some interesting comments like, oh, I wish I hadn't given my real name as a display name here in the feedback because I'm a little embarrassed by what I just said about this book that sold millions of copies.
+[866.60 --> 872.90]  But, I mean, some of the classics, it's not necessarily true that every page is going to grab you.
+[873.10 --> 873.26]  No.
+[873.34 --> 880.94]  And so if page 99 just happens not to strike you on that first impression, then you can be honest, and it'll come through in the feedback.
+[880.94 --> 884.08]  Totally. There's nothing wrong with that. Not every book is going to grab you.
+[884.14 --> 888.12]  I mean, I've got tons of classics on my bookshelves that I haven't been able to get through.
+[888.34 --> 890.64]  They're just like, they're not my style. I'm not interested.
+[890.96 --> 892.94]  So I think it's perfectly fine.
+[893.74 --> 899.70]  As long as you're just being honest about your feedback and not trying to be super critical, then I'm sure you'll enjoy using the site.
+[899.70 --> 908.80]  I'm actually just noticing that on the web interface right now, I'm actually just checking it out because I got into the beta to take a peek.
+[908.88 --> 912.40]  I'm noticing that, yeah, I'm not seeing that you actually show who the author is or what the book title is.
+[912.52 --> 914.82]  It's kind of a complete mystery.
+[915.60 --> 919.76]  And I'm noticing that this site is not an ugly website at all.
+[919.86 --> 920.94]  It's very, very pretty.
+[922.52 --> 923.14]  Thank you.
+[923.14 --> 929.78]  Not that I'm surprised exactly by that, but I guess really it's such a new, fresh idea.
+[930.44 --> 936.90]  And from what I understand, you guys went from the idea to being a finished design in a number of weeks.
+[937.10 --> 937.94]  Tell me about that story.
+[938.06 --> 940.40]  How did you go from idea to finished design?
+[940.48 --> 941.50]  Were you just very focused?
+[941.70 --> 943.48]  Did you have an awesome design team?
+[943.66 --> 944.76]  What was your secret sauce?
+[944.76 --> 953.54]  Well, I guess the three of us are type A personalities, and so we're definitely doers and lean more toward action than discussion.
+[955.04 --> 959.96]  So when Joanna explained the idea to me, I got excited about it.
+[960.02 --> 964.28]  I was thinking about doing some kind of online survey software or something like that.
+[964.36 --> 968.34]  It was just kind of lame ideas, nothing really exciting.
+[968.34 --> 974.94]  And so when Joanna mentioned this, I saw the potential definitely in the idea if we did it correctly.
+[975.52 --> 981.34]  And I got excited about it, and I told Stephen, our third co-founder, who's unfortunately not with us on the call.
+[981.50 --> 981.96]  On the call.
+[982.24 --> 982.78]  He's with us.
+[983.40 --> 984.56]  He's on Earth, but he's not on the call.
+[985.26 --> 994.64]  So basically we fleshed out the idea in about a day and put down a concept description just in a Word document.
+[994.64 --> 1003.80]  And then we approached some designers that we knew about, and the designers aren't our co-founders.
+[1003.86 --> 1012.42]  They're not actually part of our organization, our very small organization, but we were very excited to work with them, and they're going to continue to build out the design.
+[1012.54 --> 1016.08]  But they actually did the visual design on the site from our concept documents.
+[1016.48 --> 1022.60]  We worked and iterated several times until we got a logo that worked and then a homepage that worked.
+[1022.60 --> 1024.66]  And it came together pretty quickly.
+[1024.94 --> 1039.34]  So yeah, inside of about two months, we had everything basically done and ready to do a full beta test with just a couple of fun features that we wanted to get in for a public launch that weren't quite finished.
+[1039.58 --> 1042.10]  But the interface was definitely all there.
+[1042.68 --> 1049.58]  And we're happy to hear your reaction, Adam, because we spent a lot of time talking about how do we want this to look and feel.
+[1049.58 --> 1052.02]  And I think we got to a good place.
+[1052.60 --> 1053.10]  Yeah, yeah.
+[1053.26 --> 1062.94]  I think it just further to that, because we started, what, at the very beginning of August and then had it ready for a beta launch October 5th or something like that.
+[1063.14 --> 1063.28]  Yeah.
+[1063.34 --> 1064.34]  So yeah, it moved.
+[1064.64 --> 1072.32]  Like you said, it was about four weeks for design and then an additional four weeks-ish for the development side of it, for really pulling it all together in the back.
+[1072.32 --> 1074.08]  And so you partnered with Stephen.
+[1074.22 --> 1080.08]  You know him through Intuit, and you guys are all kind of working together in the global business division there.
+[1080.40 --> 1081.78]  How did you get him on board?
+[1081.88 --> 1084.18]  Was he as excited about it as you were, Lance?
+[1084.18 --> 1087.44]  Well, I fly.
+[1087.74 --> 1094.24]  Joanna and I are based in Victoria, British Columbia, and Stephen works out of the Edmonton.
+[1094.34 --> 1096.30]  Oh, he lives in Edmonton, Alberta.
+[1096.62 --> 1101.08]  So I flew out for work, and Stephen and I chat.
+[1101.20 --> 1103.96]  We both work on the websites for Intuit.
+[1103.96 --> 1110.84]  And so we talk all day about this stuff, and then even in the evening, we chat about things when I'm out there.
+[1111.28 --> 1118.60]  And we went and had a bite of dinner, and I presented him with some of these concepts and a couple of screenshots or mock-ups.
+[1119.06 --> 1121.04]  And he quickly got excited about it.
+[1121.06 --> 1124.92]  He liked the simplicity, and he was also actually, we learned that, a pretty avid reader.
+[1125.50 --> 1132.46]  So the concept grabbed him, and he was definitely on board to start developing as soon as we had those designs completed.
+[1132.46 --> 1134.62]  So, yeah, the three of us were very excited.
+[1134.80 --> 1137.78]  And we worked together on a site before a couple of years ago.
+[1137.86 --> 1147.00]  We put together a realtor rating site where if you were a client of a realtor, you could leave feedback on the experience you had.
+[1147.50 --> 1152.36]  And we got some good traction initially with it, with the site.
+[1152.52 --> 1159.68]  But the realtor community was not happy about the idea of having potentially negative feedback put up on their services.
+[1159.68 --> 1164.08]  And we had a bit of a backlash for our target audience.
+[1164.58 --> 1167.26]  So we just kind of put that on hold for a little while.
+[1168.02 --> 1170.58]  And we wanted to see if we could salvage any of that.
+[1170.64 --> 1173.88]  So we're big on user contribution systems, user feedback.
+[1173.88 --> 1182.48]  And this was just an idea, page 99 test, bringing it back, was just an idea that we thought would appeal highly to readers and highly to writers.
+[1182.70 --> 1189.08]  We're not going to be doing anything that, you know, some group that they don't really like or they may be afraid of for their business.
+[1189.54 --> 1192.24]  And so that's why we went this way.
+[1192.62 --> 1192.78]  Yeah.
+[1192.78 --> 1207.18]  And just further to that about that realtor rating site, I think we're really, it was really lucky that we did that to begin with and learned a lot then too about just generally about getting honest, unbiased feedback.
+[1207.32 --> 1211.32]  But also doing it in a way that doesn't make anybody feel bad, right?
+[1211.70 --> 1217.52]  So a writer on our site today who uploads a page 99, they get to review their feedback at all times.
+[1217.58 --> 1218.08]  Not review it.
+[1218.12 --> 1219.54]  They don't like review it before it gets posted.
+[1219.62 --> 1220.74]  It gets posted no matter what.
+[1220.74 --> 1226.04]  But they get to, you know, log into their account and see what's coming in.
+[1226.14 --> 1231.30]  And if it's like really like hurting your ego in a serious way, you can easily pull it down.
+[1231.40 --> 1235.28]  You just click a button and it's hidden from public view at that point.
+[1235.70 --> 1238.98]  You can easily do, you know, your revision and upload it again.
+[1239.42 --> 1246.06]  So I think that discomfort that realtors had with the realtor rating site, we've learned a lot there.
+[1246.14 --> 1249.94]  And that's been pulled out, that sort of discomfort for writers on our site.
+[1249.94 --> 1264.12]  I think it's awesome how you, you know, you always, not always, but most often you get a chance to go down a certain road and realize, so that's a bad direction or you get to learn a really good, valuable lesson to make your next idea that much better.
+[1264.90 --> 1265.12]  Yeah.
+[1265.22 --> 1265.98]  That's really awesome.
+[1265.98 --> 1270.46]  So, Joanna, you're in the conversation we had just before we got on this call.
+[1270.58 --> 1272.66]  You mentioned that you're actually a writer yourself.
+[1272.76 --> 1274.60]  You wrote a young adult novel.
+[1275.10 --> 1279.94]  It opened a lot of information for you in terms of how to get published and stuff like that.
+[1280.30 --> 1287.38]  What is this website going to do for, I guess, the people who are agents and people who are going to be publishing authors?
+[1287.38 --> 1290.66]  What is it doing to bridge that gap to make it easier to get published?
+[1291.74 --> 1293.14]  Yeah, I think that's a great question.
+[1293.30 --> 1298.48]  And, I mean, we've had the chance to speak with a few agents about it.
+[1298.92 --> 1306.08]  I think we want to be, we want to tread carefully here because I think a lot of people promise a lot of things.
+[1306.08 --> 1317.62]  And what we would love to do is we would love to make it possible for writers, new writers who are trying to seek an agent to get represented, obviously, and go through traditional publishing.
+[1318.44 --> 1322.44]  We want to make it easier for them to say, to stand out in the slush pile.
+[1323.04 --> 1331.04]  As, I don't know anybody, I don't know if you know about this, but, I mean, writers who are trying to attract an agent have to put together what's called a query letter.
+[1331.04 --> 1339.30]  And the query letter is like this mind-numbing, horrible process where you have to, of course, you put your book that you've just slaved over.
+[1339.48 --> 1342.00]  And in most cases, at least, you've really slaved over it.
+[1342.60 --> 1344.24]  You've worked on it for months and months and months.
+[1344.32 --> 1355.12]  You finish it, put it aside, and now you have to write a single page that sells you, that talks about the exact agent that you're querying and trying to get the attention.
+[1355.12 --> 1361.04]  So you have to, of course, research that agent, which is good because you'll end up, if you do sign with them, you'll want to know that they're the right person to sign with.
+[1361.34 --> 1362.18]  So it's valuable.
+[1362.32 --> 1371.44]  But there's this whole process and there's this different thing where you have to shift from being a fiction writer to being somebody who can sell themselves.
+[1371.86 --> 1379.58]  And I don't know if you know any writers, but in most cases, writers tend to, you know, stare at the ground and, like, not really want to sell themselves too much.
+[1379.58 --> 1387.04]  But kind of reserved quieter people, and there's always exceptions, but the ones I know hesitate to sell themselves.
+[1387.86 --> 1404.46]  So this is where the goal, I mean, ideally, if this was really to work out as we'd like it to, would be to almost eliminate query letters and make it possible for us to help writers take this great feedback from readers
+[1404.46 --> 1412.34]  and essentially submit that along with their manuscript or first chapter or whatever it is that the agent they're querying wants
+[1412.34 --> 1417.24]  and kind of let that great reader feedback speak on their behalf.
+[1417.60 --> 1427.40]  So, you know, if you have, if you get 50 people reading your manuscript or reading your page 99 and they all say, or you get, you know, 40 out of 50 of them say, yes, I turned the page.
+[1427.40 --> 1434.34]  And to me, I mean, and I'm not an agent, but I know that agents get hundreds of queries every week.
+[1435.20 --> 1444.14]  Wouldn't it be great to be able to start weeding out the great ones, the great opportunities or the great talent from those slush piles using that reader feedback?
+[1444.26 --> 1446.24]  Because that's what we hope to do.
+[1446.36 --> 1447.70]  I know that's, like, a long answer.
+[1448.32 --> 1452.82]  And it's just a matter of really getting agents to start trusting our site.
+[1452.86 --> 1454.38]  And I don't think there's any reason for them not to.
+[1454.46 --> 1457.00]  It's just, we're in such, we're in the beginning stages.
+[1457.00 --> 1461.90]  We just want to get the word out, get agents to look at it, get writers to feel really comfortable with the site,
+[1462.26 --> 1466.00]  and then see where we can go to make those connections between writers and agents.
+[1466.36 --> 1469.40]  I almost feel like it should be, you know, agents should be looking at you and saying,
+[1469.60 --> 1478.08]  thank you so much for doing this because you've given me a place to go for low-hanging fruit, good quality feedback, a decent little look at,
+[1478.22 --> 1481.78]  it may not be a whole wide-open look into everything that author has to offer,
+[1481.78 --> 1491.06]  but it is at least something that lets that agent, you know, bypass the process of weeding through a bunch of duds, for lack of better terms,
+[1491.20 --> 1492.76]  and pick up some good fruit.
+[1493.76 --> 1494.12]  Yeah.
+[1494.34 --> 1494.54]  Yeah.
+[1494.54 --> 1503.26]  So, I mean, you know, an agent could come to the site, and once we've got this site open and lots of readers and lots of uploads,
+[1503.72 --> 1509.00]  we want to build, obviously, a page that's, you know, like top page turners that people can come in and see,
+[1509.34 --> 1514.86]  see the feedback and read the page, and agents would also be able to do that, obviously, and connect with the writers.
+[1514.86 --> 1522.90]  Agents would also have the ability, frankly, if they had 100 query letters on their desk and 100 manuscripts, obviously, to go with that,
+[1523.76 --> 1531.34]  the agent, with obviously the writer's permission probably, could upload, you know, as many of those page 99s as they want
+[1531.34 --> 1537.76]  and get, start collecting feedback on, you know, what Joanna's called, or what's termed in the industry as a slush pile,
+[1537.76 --> 1542.80]  and get immediate feedback on that and use it as a real filter, just as you say, Adam.
+[1543.30 --> 1548.44]  It's something that's very new, and it'll take us some time to get there, but that is our goal.
+[1548.56 --> 1549.82]  That's a vision for the site.
+[1550.66 --> 1554.84]  Well, you just mentioned that you're launching soon, or you're hoping that things happen soon.
+[1554.86 --> 1557.92]  How far are we actually away from launching this website?
+[1559.08 --> 1561.50]  Well, right now, we've got a sign-up page.
+[1561.50 --> 1567.84]  We just wanted to have something that would capture people's email addresses, you know, who wanted to follow our progress.
+[1568.58 --> 1574.56]  We've been writing on a blog about the site, but we've been collecting email addresses for about a month now,
+[1574.74 --> 1581.60]  and we've been talking about getting the last couple of cool features into the site by early next week,
+[1581.68 --> 1585.50]  so our target right now for launching is Tuesday, October 26th.
+[1585.50 --> 1592.24]  So that's our big day, and we're kind of nervously smiling about that, Joanna and I, now.
+[1592.38 --> 1597.90]  But we think we have got the commitment from Stephen on that date, so that's what we'll put out there.
+[1598.04 --> 1602.24]  Yeah, we've completed our little exclusive private date already, gathered all that feedback.
+[1603.40 --> 1607.52]  It was a great process, and yeah, now we've iterated on it, and we're almost done there.
+[1608.00 --> 1610.54]  And yeah, looking forward to launching on Tuesday.
+[1610.54 --> 1620.38]  I wanted to add to that point just about, you know, we talked about agents, but I also don't want to forget people who want to self-publish,
+[1620.46 --> 1625.96]  and of course it's hard to say self-publish without introducing the word Kindle or Amazon into the equation.
+[1626.94 --> 1631.68]  We also want to, what we want to help writers do with the site who want to self-publish,
+[1631.74 --> 1637.02]  who want to publish on the Kindle platform, is allow people to, well, first of all, to get that great feedback,
+[1637.02 --> 1639.06]  to know whether they've got something that could be marketable.
+[1639.06 --> 1640.98]  And you can set your own price on the Kindle.
+[1641.26 --> 1643.30]  You can set it at 99 cents for your book.
+[1643.38 --> 1645.48]  You could set it at 12.99, whatever you like.
+[1645.90 --> 1648.06]  And you've got that revenue split with Amazon.
+[1648.68 --> 1651.14]  So this kind of feedback could help them set the price.
+[1651.48 --> 1653.42]  It'll also help writers build a following.
+[1653.60 --> 1656.72]  We're going to allow people to follow the writers that they like on Twitter.
+[1656.72 --> 1662.26]  And so if the writer decides to self-publish and not go in the direction of an agent,
+[1662.76 --> 1669.78]  they could inform an sort of already in-the-waiting audience about this book they've just published
+[1669.78 --> 1672.56]  and get some immediate interest.
+[1672.70 --> 1677.14]  They will have built up a bit of an audience or a following for their newly published book.
+[1677.22 --> 1678.82]  Get them off to the races.
+[1678.98 --> 1680.04]  Give them a head start, right?
+[1680.04 --> 1683.76]  Do you have any tips out there for authors who are trying to self-publish?
+[1683.90 --> 1687.88]  I mean, maybe come obviously to page99test.com, put your email address in and sign up.
+[1687.96 --> 1688.60]  That's step one.
+[1688.74 --> 1692.94]  But beyond that, how hard is it to really self-publish these days?
+[1694.70 --> 1696.48]  Well, they're making it easier, obviously.
+[1696.68 --> 1700.72]  There are lots and lots of sites out there and more cropping up every day, I think,
+[1700.82 --> 1704.16]  that allow or facilitate e-book publishing.
+[1704.16 --> 1714.14]  It's an area that there's so much to know about, we can't possibly talk about it as anything
+[1714.14 --> 1720.00]  resembling experts because it's honestly, to keep up with the things that I read about it daily,
+[1720.34 --> 1722.14]  there's a lot going on.
+[1722.76 --> 1727.16]  I think there are great opportunities to self-publish today an e-book.
+[1727.16 --> 1735.30]  I think what most writers would think, though, is, one, I wanted to have my name in print, right?
+[1735.44 --> 1742.16]  And there's something that comes along with the cachet of having a publisher's imprint on your book.
+[1742.38 --> 1743.42]  It's pretty cool.
+[1743.56 --> 1747.74]  It's what most writers who grew up wanting to be writers wanted to see one day.
+[1747.88 --> 1753.86]  But that doesn't mean that that's it, that people aren't just going to go ahead and still self-publish as an e-book.
+[1753.86 --> 1760.06]  But I think where the real problem may be, where I would hesitate to self-publish an e-book,
+[1760.40 --> 1764.02]  is around getting my name out there and marketing myself.
+[1764.16 --> 1771.12]  And just like Lance said, you have to have a pretty serious platform of fans or readers in order to sell a book.
+[1771.46 --> 1773.72]  There are so many books out there that people can choose from.
+[1773.80 --> 1774.80]  Why should they choose yours?
+[1775.38 --> 1781.22]  So that's a hurdle that self-published writers have to overcome, have to get over.
+[1781.22 --> 1789.30]  And that's where a small piece, of course, of what we're trying to do is to give them that feedback,
+[1789.48 --> 1794.40]  however that's displayed, when we hopefully work out something with these more, you know,
+[1794.46 --> 1797.88]  with the larger e-book publishers such as Amazon.
+[1798.78 --> 1802.82]  We'll figure out, we'd like to figure out ways to, and we have ideas.
+[1802.82 --> 1806.80]  We just don't want to say them because we just don't want to say them yet.
+[1806.92 --> 1814.18]  Because we haven't actually had the right conversation to really start going there and talking about it as if it's already under works or something.
+[1814.24 --> 1815.00]  In the works it's not.
+[1816.20 --> 1819.90]  But ways to market yourself with that great reader feedback.
+[1820.26 --> 1820.40]  Yeah.
+[1821.28 --> 1822.60]  On sites like Amazon.
+[1822.60 --> 1826.50]  So you guys both have good day jobs.
+[1826.62 --> 1828.06]  You're not hurting for money by any means.
+[1828.30 --> 1833.72]  And, you know, this idea, is it a bet the farm kind of thing?
+[1833.78 --> 1840.90]  Are you expecting to make, you know, your biggest, I guess, biggest, I don't know, lots and lots of money from this?
+[1840.96 --> 1842.88]  I mean, what is the real plan with this?
+[1842.88 --> 1849.10]  Is it just because you have a true passion for helping these authors and you love writing and this is just a fantastic idea?
+[1849.80 --> 1852.46]  Or, you know, what is your intentions with this, really?
+[1853.52 --> 1855.62]  Well, we both just gave our notice yesterday.
+[1856.00 --> 1856.72]  No, I'm just kidding.
+[1856.96 --> 1857.60]  That would be terrible.
+[1857.86 --> 1858.18]  Well, I didn't.
+[1858.26 --> 1858.88]  Maybe you did.
+[1859.76 --> 1860.12]  No.
+[1860.92 --> 1861.66]  Go ahead, Lance.
+[1861.74 --> 1861.78]  Sure.
+[1861.78 --> 1863.34]  I got my jaw on the floor for a second.
+[1863.42 --> 1864.74]  I was like, wow, you guys just turned in.
+[1864.90 --> 1865.54]  That's crazy.
+[1866.34 --> 1867.56]  No, that's too crazy.
+[1868.36 --> 1868.64]  No.
+[1868.64 --> 1873.56]  I think we're risk takers, but we both really enjoy our day jobs.
+[1874.20 --> 1879.32]  And so we really looked at this as a, I don't know, starting off as an experiment.
+[1879.52 --> 1881.52]  Let's see if we can get some traction with this.
+[1881.52 --> 1900.50]  As we've built the idea out and every day we come up with an enhancement to our vision about how it could turn from, you know, kind of a fun hobby site almost where we're just really trying to get readers and writers to come and interact and create a bit of a marketplace for sharing feedback.
+[1900.50 --> 1907.48]  But we can see that there are some business opportunities, certainly, and some revenue-generating opportunities.
+[1907.76 --> 1922.38]  Once you build a big enough marketplace of two sides of the market, readers and writers in our case, just like buyers and sellers, say, for eBay, there are things that you can do to turn it into, I guess, a legitimate business and legitimate, I mean, revenue-generating.
+[1922.38 --> 1929.20]  So we have no plans to make any big decisions with our lives, with our working lives.
+[1929.62 --> 1937.48]  We will continue to work hard with this and have fun with it on the weekends and evenings, you know, like we have been, and it's been working out really well.
+[1937.48 --> 1945.18]  But we're just going to cross our fingers, do whatever we can to build it, and then just have fun along the way and see where it goes.
+[1945.38 --> 1952.08]  Yeah, we read a lot of, like, 37 Signals, but everything they put out, and we've been reading that for years, right?
+[1952.08 --> 1962.04]  So it's kind of shaped, in many ways, when we agree, which in most cases we do, shaped the way that we feel about putting together this startup.
+[1962.34 --> 1967.94]  We're not, you know, rushing out there to get any, you know, VC funding or anything like that.
+[1968.02 --> 1976.82]  We're still in the bootstrapping mode, and we're happy to do that and see how it proves itself out, and then respond accordingly.
+[1977.60 --> 1979.42]  If it comes time to respond, yeah.
+[1979.42 --> 1984.76]  Do you have any, I guess, plans to monetize, or how do you plan to make any money?
+[1984.76 --> 1990.56]  Do you even plan to make money at first, or is it just sort of a, let's wait nine months and see what the market proves to us and then deal with that?
+[1990.58 --> 1991.78]  Or do you have some good ideas now?
+[1994.18 --> 1999.38]  Yeah, so with our Realtor Ratings site, we did it all free.
+[1999.86 --> 2004.34]  And there's something very good about free, but there's also something very good about getting paid.
+[2004.34 --> 2008.00]  So it's really, we have plans.
+[2008.10 --> 2009.88]  Lance, do you want to speak at all to that?
+[2010.58 --> 2011.02]  Well, sure.
+[2011.22 --> 2020.46]  I think that, you know, we want to offer, we want to keep page 99 tests completely free for everybody, and that's what we're committing to do.
+[2020.46 --> 2029.02]  If a writer gets really good feedback on a page, we're going to give them the option or suggest that they might want to upload an entire chapter.
+[2029.18 --> 2030.68]  And it could be a chapter of their choosing.
+[2031.66 --> 2040.46]  But in order to get, you know, feedback on an entire chapter, we may have to look at incenting readers in some way, perhaps through a contest or some kind of credits.
+[2040.46 --> 2049.78]  But incent readers a little bit to spend that extra time going through a full chapter, which could easily be, you know, 18 to 25 pages instead of one page.
+[2049.90 --> 2055.58]  And so we will probably look at offering that as a paid service, right?
+[2055.58 --> 2061.44]  So there would be a small fee for uploading your entire chapter and getting feedback on that.
+[2061.44 --> 2072.52]  And if we can help that writer be more marketable or have better success with their book, we think it's probably worth the nominal fee that we're considering charging for that chapter upload.
+[2072.84 --> 2073.02]  Yeah.
+[2073.64 --> 2076.56]  And further to that, there's the chapter one part of it.
+[2076.56 --> 2094.64]  But we're also, I mean, because there are published books on our site, there's a pretty clear connection between these pages where people are discovering these books and, of course, actually selling the book, linking them out to Amazon in a basic way, like as affiliates.
+[2094.64 --> 2104.14]  Or also letting these published writers or the publishing houses in the marketing departments there actually advertise on the site.
+[2104.14 --> 2109.26]  And we're, Stephen in particular is very hesitant about ads and we totally get that.
+[2110.16 --> 2115.06]  We'd want to do it in a right way that's not interruptive, you know, as you often see for ads.
+[2116.18 --> 2122.88]  But that really, once, if you found a page 99 for a book that you would turn the page and you voted yes, you would buy the book.
+[2123.24 --> 2131.90]  Well, when you go to the next page, why not at least have the opportunity to buy the book with, you know, an image of the book or, you know, a search inside or something like that.
+[2131.90 --> 2135.30]  So that's where we'd also see monetizing.
+[2135.78 --> 2144.52]  Yeah, even if it's a book that has yet to be released and a publisher could just, you know, they wanted to put page 99 up and they got great feedback.
+[2144.72 --> 2154.42]  You know, when you turn that page and you see the feedback, what could be offered up on that page in the form of an ad is more like, you know, get on the pre-order list for this book.
+[2154.42 --> 2167.26]  It's going to be released in X number of weeks and we can help facilitate that interest and obviously charge the publisher for the ability to provide that extra information about a new book release.
+[2167.44 --> 2168.52]  So there's an opportunity there.
+[2169.44 --> 2172.06]  It's advertising, but it's very contextual.
+[2172.40 --> 2177.54]  It'll still be fun for the reader because they'll be experiencing a page 99 just like they would any other page 99.
+[2177.64 --> 2180.44]  And they can give honest feedback on that page too, right?
+[2180.44 --> 2180.84]  Yeah.
+[2181.40 --> 2185.86]  I just got one more, one last question before we call it quits on this call here.
+[2185.96 --> 2198.34]  But I guess in considering the medium, attracting readers, people reading, flipping pages, that kind of thing, you obviously have to be thinking about some sort of interface on the iPad and what that might be able to do for you as well.
+[2198.44 --> 2200.42]  Have you any plans in the near future?
+[2200.48 --> 2205.32]  I know you guys are just about to launch the website, but any plans to launch an iPad app as well?
+[2205.32 --> 2208.32]  Yeah, exactly.
+[2209.06 --> 2212.82]  There are certainly some great opportunities for smartphones and for the iPad in particular.
+[2213.52 --> 2216.58]  You know, the interface itself is very simple.
+[2216.72 --> 2220.34]  It lends itself very well to the iPad.
+[2221.52 --> 2228.40]  Just, you know, the ability to flip a page, you know, to the next page 99 and just hit these big buttons that say whether or not you turn the page.
+[2228.40 --> 2242.84]  So absolutely, once we get the website up and humming along and performing well and, you know, incorporating feedback as we get it, at the same time, we do want to look to more mobile opportunities.
+[2243.14 --> 2248.76]  Because we can see people reading page 99s on the subway or in a plane or wherever they are.
+[2248.88 --> 2251.10]  Because, again, it's not a huge commitment on time.
+[2251.24 --> 2253.26]  A single page only takes a couple of minutes.
+[2253.26 --> 2258.16]  So you could stand in line almost and just flip these things and give feedback.
+[2258.46 --> 2261.02]  So without a doubt, we want to go in that direction, Adam.
+[2262.22 --> 2265.08]  You know, Lance, I appreciate you both coming on the show.
+[2265.18 --> 2267.46]  Joanne, it was a pleasure to meet and speak with you guys.
+[2268.06 --> 2270.14]  I really think this idea has got a lot of merit.
+[2270.26 --> 2275.46]  You know, I know as soon as I saw the concept, your homepage, for one, it was beautiful.
+[2275.64 --> 2276.66]  That was an easy win.
+[2276.76 --> 2279.64]  But I knew that I wanted to talk to you guys about this idea.
+[2279.64 --> 2284.04]  It was definitely far more fresh than anything I've seen out there, even in this genre whatsoever.
+[2284.76 --> 2292.80]  And, you know, I think it's going to be a big winner for any upcoming authors or anybody who's looking to really do what you said, grab an audience and get out there.
+[2292.94 --> 2294.72]  But where can people find you at?
+[2294.86 --> 2295.68]  Do you have Twitter?
+[2295.76 --> 2296.30]  Do you have Facebook?
+[2296.66 --> 2297.00]  Blog?
+[2298.20 --> 2298.48]  Yeah.
+[2299.04 --> 2300.14]  We're on Facebook.
+[2300.78 --> 2302.60]  I think we're just page 99 test, right?
+[2302.68 --> 2304.52]  We're far more active on Twitter.
+[2305.14 --> 2307.08]  It's just at page 99 test.
+[2307.08 --> 2310.72]  And we have a blog, page 99 test.
+[2310.90 --> 2312.92]  It's still on WordPress.wordpress.com.
+[2313.72 --> 2316.30]  But yeah, Twitter is a great place.
+[2316.36 --> 2317.30]  We're on there constantly.
+[2317.52 --> 2321.84]  I can't even believe, until we started doing page 99 test, I had no idea it was so addictive.
+[2322.12 --> 2325.96]  And it's like completely, completely, I've been sold on Twitter.
+[2326.22 --> 2326.78]  It's fantastic.
+[2327.16 --> 2328.44]  Yeah, it can be quite addicting.
+[2328.70 --> 2331.88]  So listeners out there, go to page 99test.com.
+[2331.98 --> 2332.92]  Plug your email address in.
+[2332.98 --> 2333.52]  Get in on the beta.
+[2333.60 --> 2334.86]  They launch in just a few days.
+[2334.86 --> 2339.14]  Also, head to twitter.com forward slash page 99test and say hello.
+[2339.34 --> 2339.92]  Follow them.
+[2341.30 --> 2343.94]  Lance, Joanna, I look forward to seeing what you guys are doing out there, for sure.
+[2344.00 --> 2345.00]  And I appreciate you coming on the show.
+[2345.56 --> 2346.62]  Well, thanks for having us.
+[2346.68 --> 2347.28]  This is great.
+[2347.58 --> 2349.98]  Yeah, we're really pleased that you discovered the site.
+[2350.04 --> 2351.64]  And it's been a lot of fun talking with you today, Adam.
+[2351.80 --> 2352.04]  Great.
+[2352.04 --> 2352.54]  Thanks, guys.
+[2352.54 --> 2352.60]  Thanks, guys.
+[2352.60 --> 2352.64]  Thanks, guys.
+[2352.64 --> 2352.66]  Thanks, guys.
+[2352.66 --> 2354.60]  Thanks, guys.
+[2354.60 --> 2356.60]  Thanks, guys.
+[2356.60 --> 2356.66]  Thanks, guys.
+[2356.66 --> 2364.84]  Thanks, guys.

Ted Roden ⧸ Fancy Hands_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,915 @@
+[0.00 --> 4.12]  This is Founders Talk, an interview podcast hosted by me, Adam Stachowiak.
+[4.24 --> 7.56]  We profile founders building businesses both online as well as offline.
+[8.08 --> 10.90]  And today we talk with Ted Rodin, founder of Fancy Hands.
+[11.52 --> 16.98]  Fancy Hands is a team of professional assistants in the cloud ready to work for you right now.
+[17.38 --> 19.48]  I really had a blast talking with Ted about his business.
+[19.94 --> 21.62]  There's lots of stuff going on there.
+[21.76 --> 26.88]  In six months span, he's done so much and believe it or not, profitable since day one.
+[26.88 --> 33.82]  If you're someone who is starting a side project or starting something that's much like what Ted is doing, please listen up.
+[33.86 --> 35.24]  He's got lots of great nuggets in there.
+[35.50 --> 38.18]  In terms of the show notes, there's tons of show notes up there at the website.
+[38.32 --> 43.86]  So go to 5by5.tv forward slash Founders Talk forward slash 2.
+[43.96 --> 45.28]  That'll hit the episode page.
+[45.66 --> 46.86]  Lots of great show notes there.
+[47.20 --> 49.58]  This interview does run a little longer than I'd like them to be.
+[49.90 --> 53.34]  I'm trying to hit the mark of around 50, sorry, 30 minutes.
+[53.38 --> 54.90]  And this one comes in at around 50 minutes.
+[54.90 --> 56.28]  So I do apologize for that.
+[56.28 --> 57.94]  I'm trying to be very commute friendly.
+[58.16 --> 62.52]  So just work with me as we continue on through this adventure together.
+[63.42 --> 65.14]  Anyways, listen up.
+[65.24 --> 65.90]  Great show.
+[66.14 --> 66.64]  Please enjoy.
+[66.88 --> 67.48]  Thanks for listening.
+[68.50 --> 69.22]  Welcome everybody.
+[69.38 --> 76.36]  I'm here with Ted Roden, founder of Fancy Hands, not Fancy Pants, which I made the epic fail of doing via Twitter.
+[76.46 --> 80.76]  So it's actually out there stated in the internets that I called it Fancy Pants, not Fancy Hands.
+[80.92 --> 83.66]  But Ted's thinking about buying the domain, but I'll let him tell you that.
+[83.66 --> 85.30]  So let's intro Ted.
+[85.40 --> 86.22]  Ted, say hello to everybody.
+[86.94 --> 87.76]  Hello, everybody.
+[88.56 --> 96.56]  And Ted, I guess since maybe I'm the one who knows most about you at this point, since I did some research on you and I'm a fan of what you're doing at Fancy Hands.
+[97.14 --> 100.70]  Why don't you tell everybody who you are and kind of what you do at Fancy Hands?
+[100.70 --> 101.98]  Sure.
+[101.98 --> 104.02]  Well, I'm Ted Roden.
+[104.02 --> 112.84]  I am the founder and essentially only guy at Fancy Hands other than the assistants.
+[112.84 --> 118.10]  And what Fancy Hands is, is a personal assistant service.
+[118.32 --> 124.40]  So essentially, if you have something you want to get done, rather than put it on your to do list, you just tell us to do it.
+[124.40 --> 128.56]  And that's kind of the gist of the service.
+[128.56 --> 130.96]  Some people call it virtual assistants.
+[131.22 --> 135.88]  I tend to not do that because of the idea of where we're going to go.
+[135.94 --> 138.60]  Right now, we don't go anywhere for you.
+[139.10 --> 142.36]  But physically, we can't pick up your dry cleaning, for example.
+[142.36 --> 146.54]  But in the future, we're going to kind of branch out a little more.
+[146.72 --> 147.52]  And that's the idea.
+[147.70 --> 151.18]  So I'm very adamant about not calling them virtual assistants.
+[151.38 --> 157.04]  You're dealing with your personal, real friend of yours or assistant that you just happen to pay.
+[158.68 --> 161.46]  And we launched in about April of this year.
+[161.88 --> 162.96]  That's about six months then, huh?
+[163.30 --> 163.60]  Yeah.
+[163.72 --> 164.68]  It's been up and running.
+[164.78 --> 167.16]  It's been actually profitable since the first day.
+[168.44 --> 171.94]  I was going to ask you a little later on about your investment.
+[171.94 --> 173.32]  You know, time, energy, money.
+[173.48 --> 175.30]  What was, we'll get to that in a bit.
+[175.60 --> 180.24]  But so personal assistants in the cloud is pretty much what the game is.
+[180.30 --> 181.34]  It's called Fancy Hands.
+[181.42 --> 182.14]  Where did you get the name?
+[182.22 --> 183.58]  What made you come up with Fancy Hands?
+[184.12 --> 186.42]  So I name, you know, I name all my projects.
+[187.04 --> 189.54]  And I should have mentioned this, I guess, before.
+[189.64 --> 192.28]  But I'm kind of a serial launcher of products.
+[192.42 --> 198.22]  I made something called Enjoys Things, which is a kind of visual bookmarking service.
+[198.22 --> 205.52]  I wrote a Mac application called Blasted, which I sold to another company.
+[205.74 --> 207.10]  And it's now called Blast.
+[207.62 --> 213.46]  And the names I get for all these things, Enjoys Things was a little more thought out, but Blasted and Fancy Hands.
+[213.88 --> 219.76]  The names for the products come from the initial directory I create when I say, oh, I've got an idea to make something.
+[219.76 --> 226.86]  In the case of Blasted, literally, I was going to name the project Blah, because that's what I typed very quickly.
+[227.44 --> 229.02]  But I had already had a directory called that.
+[229.10 --> 230.48]  So I was going to then do Blah2.
+[230.72 --> 231.70]  That was also taken.
+[231.92 --> 233.92]  And so Blasted just kind of came out of that.
+[234.52 --> 237.98]  Fancy Hands, it just, I was like, oh, I want to build this service.
+[238.64 --> 240.42]  I had this idea for this kind of service.
+[240.60 --> 241.64]  And so I created the directory.
+[241.94 --> 243.74]  And then it was, you know, kind of the code name.
+[243.78 --> 244.68]  I was going to change it.
+[244.98 --> 245.94]  And then I never did.
+[245.94 --> 251.04]  So the story behind it is that it was never supposed to be this name.
+[251.22 --> 254.34]  And then, you know, I kind of cringe at the name still to this day.
+[254.42 --> 255.54]  And some people like it.
+[255.58 --> 256.76]  Some people don't.
+[256.76 --> 261.08]  I was going to ask you how you feel about it, you know, since it's sort of technically a fluke that it's called Fancy Hands.
+[261.12 --> 262.02]  How do you feel about the name?
+[263.10 --> 266.08]  It's, you know, it's, I kind of love the name.
+[266.20 --> 271.60]  I feel it's in a lot of ways, you know, it's a little unprofessional, I suppose.
+[271.60 --> 275.58]  You know, since we're helping people with their own businesses and things like that.
+[275.58 --> 279.84]  That's, you know, I don't think you want someone calling on your behalf saying, hi, I'm from Fancy Hands.
+[280.66 --> 282.58]  Can I schedule an appointment today?
+[284.26 --> 285.22]  So, which we don't.
+[285.28 --> 287.32]  We say we're your personal assistant anyways.
+[287.66 --> 293.28]  But, you know, it's, you know, none of our clients have ever had any issue of saying, you know, I'd sign up if you changed your name.
+[293.40 --> 296.68]  So, you know, I'm happy with it.
+[296.70 --> 299.20]  I think it's fairly easily rememberable, memorable.
+[300.90 --> 304.38]  And I think it's, you know, it's its own thing.
+[304.54 --> 305.20]  So I like that.
+[305.58 --> 307.62]  I think it definitely is a sticky name.
+[307.80 --> 315.52]  You know, I think you try to, when you come up with product names and, you know, new services like this, especially ones that are, that can be bland.
+[315.60 --> 318.70]  It can be really boring unless you put some jazz and some fun into it.
+[318.74 --> 323.06]  I think being sticky, being memorable, like you said, is really important.
+[323.26 --> 325.92]  So why did you build it?
+[325.96 --> 327.40]  Like, what was the problem you were trying to solve?
+[327.40 --> 333.30]  Well, to be honest, you know, like I come from an engineering type background.
+[333.46 --> 334.90]  I'm a programmer by trade.
+[335.58 --> 338.70]  And so like every project I build, I built it for myself.
+[338.84 --> 340.64]  I wanted to use this idea.
+[340.64 --> 343.20]  And there are, this is not really a new idea.
+[343.40 --> 345.28]  Other people have done this service before.
+[346.24 --> 348.74]  And I encourage you to go and try those ones out as well.
+[349.06 --> 356.60]  The reason I built mine was because very quickly early on you realize limitations of other services, whether it's language barriers,
+[356.60 --> 360.50]  you know, kind of the, the, the things they can and can't do.
+[361.16 --> 365.74]  And just kind of, you know, at the end of the day, how good are the assistants themselves?
+[366.38 --> 371.68]  And I realized I kind of came up with a way to do it that I thought would work at least just for me.
+[371.74 --> 372.96]  I didn't know how well it would scale.
+[373.16 --> 374.70]  So I just kind of built it for myself.
+[375.10 --> 377.82]  And the thing was, this was about a year ago.
+[379.28 --> 383.84]  I mean, about a year, well, 16 months ago now, actually, I, my wife and I had a baby.
+[383.84 --> 390.10]  And I also agreed to, while we were in the hospital, to write a book for O'Reilly.
+[391.74 --> 393.02]  And I have a full-time job.
+[393.42 --> 394.38]  You know, this is a year ago.
+[395.72 --> 400.80]  And literally anything after that, you know, whether it's a baby or the job or the book,
+[401.46 --> 405.48]  kind of any other thing on top of that was just too much for me to do.
+[405.98 --> 411.14]  You know, no matter, even if I could do it, even if it was a simple two-minute task, it was just, there was just no time.
+[411.24 --> 412.44]  There was no way I was going to do it.
+[412.44 --> 416.10]  And so if you needed me to call and make a reservation so we could go out to dinner,
+[416.56 --> 420.00]  they would end up getting put off for six weeks because I just never could work it in.
+[421.00 --> 426.16]  And so rather than, you know, just call and make a reservation when one finally came up,
+[426.78 --> 430.34]  I built a service to have somebody make that reservation for me.
+[431.30 --> 434.52]  And it's really just a scratch-your-own-itch sort of service for me.
+[434.52 --> 436.62]  I just, I needed to use it.
+[436.80 --> 443.50]  And so I built it for myself and actually used it, was the only user of it for probably about a month or two.
+[444.26 --> 446.54]  And I just had it doing kind of basic stuff for me.
+[447.42 --> 450.92]  And then I just kind of realized, like, okay, you know, I bet somebody else would have to do this.
+[451.00 --> 453.10]  And so I added a way for someone to pay me.
+[453.10 --> 456.54]  And that was the only change I really had to make other than make a homepage.
+[457.30 --> 458.86]  And turned it on for everybody.
+[459.18 --> 462.52]  And immediately it got kind of picked up and picked up a little steam.
+[463.86 --> 469.60]  So what were some of the earlier publications that were, like, kind of evangelizing about Fancy Hands at First?
+[469.60 --> 474.20]  Well, the first, the weekend, I launched it over a weekend.
+[474.42 --> 477.88]  I don't remember what day, maybe Friday or on a Sunday.
+[478.52 --> 482.26]  And on Monday, I think, Read Right Web wrote an article about it.
+[482.64 --> 483.78]  A really nice article.
+[483.98 --> 498.08]  He had signed up and submitted a bunch of tasks, including one where he had one of our assistants call a plumber, you know, on his behalf to come over to his house.
+[498.08 --> 505.08]  And so, but when we called, when the guy called the plumber, it was not the plumber, it was the reporter.
+[505.70 --> 509.50]  And he kind of grilled him for a while and asked about the service.
+[509.74 --> 510.96]  And it was really funny.
+[511.06 --> 519.14]  He did a really thorough kind of interview or kind of research and then wrote a really nice post where his kind of, you know, he's like, this is great.
+[519.34 --> 521.86]  You know, can it scale was his question.
+[522.06 --> 525.24]  And, you know, how big would the market be?
+[525.24 --> 527.78]  And this was in the first weekend.
+[528.14 --> 530.84]  And so we got, you know, a lot of signups immediately after that.
+[530.96 --> 535.14]  And then Fast Company wrote about us real quickly thereafter.
+[536.08 --> 540.38]  And then just kind of on a lot of blogs after that, we were in Thrillist.
+[540.48 --> 544.26]  We were in a number of other things that came up real quickly.
+[544.36 --> 545.58]  And I was so surprised.
+[545.72 --> 546.28]  I didn't know.
+[546.56 --> 549.48]  I didn't know anybody was interested in the space, as they call it.
+[549.48 --> 552.58]  You know, I thought this was just kind of one of my silly ideas.
+[553.04 --> 558.70]  And so I was shocked that anybody would want to use it and that people would want to write about it and read about it.
+[559.20 --> 563.86]  It was very entertaining for the first couple of weeks when I wasn't hyperventilating.
+[563.86 --> 573.80]  I'm sure it was helpful for you, too, whenever you were having your baby, taking a lot of that extra stuff off of your plate and, you know, making your life a little bit easier.
+[574.82 --> 575.54]  You know, it did.
+[575.76 --> 583.84]  And, you know, when you have a baby, the first, you know, it kind of gets easier after, you know, it starts out really hard and then gets easier on its own.
+[583.84 --> 595.56]  And, you know, to be totally honest, it probably would have been a lot easier for me to just call and deal with the stuff I had to deal with on my own and then build a service to do it, at least in the short term.
+[595.60 --> 599.00]  But now in the long term, I mean, I use the service every day as a user.
+[600.58 --> 603.34]  And, you know, it's saved me time in the long run.
+[603.34 --> 616.32]  But there was a time there where I'd spent like a week doing this when I wasn't writing my book that I was supposed to be writing, when I, you know, wasn't getting those extra couple hours of sleep that I should be getting at night, that I was writing this app instead.
+[616.86 --> 622.12]  And there were times I was like, this is not really a smart move, you know, productivity wise.
+[623.34 --> 629.86]  But I think now it's, you know, the development time is more than paid for itself, just for me, productivity wise.
+[630.48 --> 632.44]  So it started as a side project, right?
+[632.44 --> 638.62]  So how much time, I guess, since you mentioned profitability earlier, you said it was profitable from day one.
+[638.70 --> 642.58]  How much time and money have you put into Fancy Hands since it started?
+[643.96 --> 649.04]  Oh, so time wise, I mean, I put in, you know, it's, you know, creator's time, right?
+[649.10 --> 653.92]  So it's not real time because, you know, I don't have to bill myself, right?
+[655.16 --> 659.50]  So I put in, gosh, I mean, hundreds of hours.
+[659.50 --> 668.56]  You know, I get home, we'd get home from work, hang out with the baby, and then around maybe nine or 10 at night, start working.
+[668.84 --> 671.22]  And I'd work till about two, three in the morning.
+[671.64 --> 674.54]  And then, you know, wake up early and do it again the next day.
+[675.12 --> 677.38]  And I did that for a very, very long time.
+[677.38 --> 686.66]  And now I work on it, you know, I have a little bit saner hours with it, but I still put in a lot of time.
+[686.80 --> 691.60]  So the hourly wise, it's a lot of hours that I've put into it over the course of the time.
+[692.04 --> 695.78]  Money wise, I haven't really invested much of money of my own at all.
+[696.94 --> 699.96]  Like I said, you know, in order to use this service, you have to pay.
+[699.96 --> 701.64]  There's no free account.
+[703.24 --> 711.00]  And so, you know, when I get enough signups and I have a bit of a buffer, I try to do things like run advertisements.
+[711.84 --> 713.60]  But that money didn't come out of my pocket.
+[714.30 --> 717.08]  So it just kind of, the service kind of reinvested in itself.
+[718.20 --> 722.76]  Web hosting is actually totally free because I'm using Google's App Engine.
+[722.76 --> 731.04]  And you have to have a really, really popular web service to have to pay to use their service.
+[731.22 --> 733.32]  They give you a lot of free runway there.
+[735.02 --> 744.18]  So that's been insanely helpful, just to not have to pay for hosting, not have to worry about, you know, if I get, you know, like if ReadWub writes about me,
+[744.74 --> 750.78]  I don't have to worry about, you know, will my server still be running in the morning, things like that, because that's all on Google's end.
+[750.78 --> 752.98]  And so that's been great.
+[753.12 --> 760.34]  And then, you know, I brought in, you know, as, like I said, as more money came in, I would say, okay, well, I need to get a better logo.
+[760.48 --> 764.14]  I need to get this and that and just kind of let it pay for itself as it went.
+[764.28 --> 770.08]  You know, I didn't have a lot of time in the front end to do these, you know, to build the logo and to do all these things anyway.
+[770.24 --> 772.38]  So I just waited until there was money.
+[772.48 --> 775.64]  And then I, a lot of times I have fancy hands find somebody to do it.
+[775.66 --> 777.36]  And then we have them do it.
+[777.36 --> 780.30]  And then I added back into the service.
+[780.30 --> 784.54]  So anything I had to pay for, fancy hands paid for on its own.
+[785.16 --> 789.36]  The time wise, you know, it's a lot more time than I care to think about.
+[790.36 --> 794.72]  Yeah, you said you were in that trek of nights and weekends for a while.
+[794.76 --> 797.48]  And so could you say it's like a couple months, three months, six months?
+[797.56 --> 800.12]  I mean, how much technology is behind fancy hands?
+[800.50 --> 802.66]  There's a lot, actually, a lot of technology.
+[802.66 --> 808.08]  I was working on that probably from, you know, February to April.
+[808.26 --> 809.48]  I was doing kind of the long nights.
+[811.84 --> 822.58]  And then, you know, yeah, all the way through till, you know, beginning, middle of the summer where I was really slammed with work.
+[822.58 --> 826.18]  Because, you know, there was an issue that needed to get taken care of.
+[826.24 --> 828.42]  Now the site kind of runs on its own a little better.
+[828.54 --> 833.32]  So I would say I was doing those long hours from, you know, February to June or July.
+[834.84 --> 836.72]  Technology-wise, there is actually a lot going on.
+[836.96 --> 839.48]  You wouldn't know it from the website, from the front end.
+[839.48 --> 846.30]  But on the back end, initially we launched, I wanted to have, you know, oh, you're asking about X.
+[846.40 --> 848.68]  And this is this perfect person to answer X.
+[849.52 --> 852.58]  And so the system is all ready to, can do all that.
+[852.64 --> 860.38]  It does really sophisticated routing from client to task, or from the client to the right assistant to do the job.
+[860.38 --> 866.70]  So, however, I've realized that most of the tasks are not super specific.
+[867.20 --> 872.04]  And that actually kind of slows things down, rather than just having a lot of eyes looking at it at all times.
+[872.48 --> 877.46]  So there's a lot of technology that I wrote I was so proud of, and that ended up just disabling.
+[878.80 --> 881.88]  Because, you know, it didn't actually make the service any better.
+[882.42 --> 883.72]  I don't know if it harmed it in any way.
+[883.72 --> 890.00]  But what's great about that is that as we kind of, you know, as we're scaling up and we're getting more and more users every day,
+[890.38 --> 892.74]  those kinds of things do start to become useful again.
+[892.92 --> 897.94]  So I'm crossing my fingers that it wasn't, you know, that kind of stuff wasn't worked for naught.
+[900.36 --> 908.38]  Beyond that, there is, you know, just a lot of technology in us trying to learn more about you as a person,
+[908.38 --> 914.80]  what it is that you're requesting so that, you know, by the time that we look, you send in a task, we're kind of ready for it.
+[915.40 --> 918.08]  And that, you know, like you would with a regular personal assistant.
+[918.08 --> 923.22]  You know, you have a rapport with your assistant and you can say, you know, you talk about sports.
+[923.42 --> 926.46]  This is if you have a real assistant, you know, sitting next to you at the office.
+[926.70 --> 927.96]  And we don't have that.
+[928.04 --> 929.98]  We don't have this kind of day-to-day activity.
+[930.14 --> 932.18]  We have these kind of curt emails that you send in.
+[932.94 --> 934.44]  But that doesn't mean we can't learn from them.
+[934.44 --> 944.12]  And so that's, we're spending a lot of time, a lot of development time on having the system be smart enough to help out our assistants to know a lot about you,
+[944.24 --> 950.96]  to know, you know, kind of your preferences, you know, obvious stuff like your location and things like that.
+[951.00 --> 953.38]  But what is it you're commonly doing?
+[953.56 --> 956.72]  What are the kinds of things you've been happy with that we've done and been unhappy with?
+[956.94 --> 958.94]  Which, you know, is not the same from client to client.
+[959.62 --> 961.74]  Some clients like to get a lot of email from us.
+[961.84 --> 964.26]  They want to go back and forth a lot and do it.
+[964.30 --> 965.90]  Other people do not want an email from us.
+[965.94 --> 968.28]  They just want, give me the answer, do this, do that.
+[968.40 --> 971.30]  But, you know, and so it's kind of striking that balance.
+[971.50 --> 976.58]  And so the system has to kind of take over where a human would.
+[976.66 --> 980.72]  Since you don't have your own personal, you don't have like Valerie on the phone every day.
+[980.72 --> 985.08]  You have Fancy Hands who could be one of a thousand people.
+[985.56 --> 986.52]  That's on the other end.
+[986.52 --> 990.64]  And so I guess whenever I think about this, if I'm submitting to the service,
+[990.70 --> 993.56]  which actually I haven't mentioned this yet on the podcast, but I'm a user of Fancy Hands.
+[993.84 --> 1000.30]  So whenever I submit to Fancy Hands, I kind of think, I guess to use some of the words you just used there to describe it,
+[1000.34 --> 1005.62]  which is I try to treat the email I'm sending or the note I'm sending just like I'm sending it to my real assistant.
+[1005.62 --> 1012.92]  I try to be brief in my instructions, but at the same time, I don't want to, you know, be wishy-washy with my words.
+[1012.92 --> 1020.40]  I try to be pretty succinct, but I try to treat the person or whoever's receiving this like they would actually be my personal assistant.
+[1021.22 --> 1025.54]  I guess on some of that riff there is, you know, what kind of guidelines do you have on so many requests?
+[1026.68 --> 1027.60]  That's a great question.
+[1028.42 --> 1030.12]  When I started, I had almost none.
+[1030.12 --> 1040.20]  I decided I wanted to not tell people what they couldn't do rather than have them send it in, see if it's something we can figure out, you know, and then go from there.
+[1042.88 --> 1053.10]  One of the things I'm learning is that we need to, we, this is a business that, you know, when you pay us and you're kind of excited to use the system,
+[1053.10 --> 1058.10]  and in order to get the most out of it, you kind of, you kind of don't know what to do.
+[1058.16 --> 1065.82]  Like, you know, you said, you, you, you kind of thought heavily about how to submit each task and, and that's kind of a problem in some ways and it's kind of a good thing in some ways.
+[1065.82 --> 1075.64]  But one thing I think we do really poorly now and that we need to do a lot better at is educating the user on how to submit a task, right?
+[1075.88 --> 1081.76]  Sometimes, you know, you get in a task that's, there's clearly something that needs to be done, but it's not clear on actually what they're asking for.
+[1081.76 --> 1088.50]  Um, and, and that might seem kind of odd, but it's, a lot of times it's like, you know, I'm looking for research on this and that.
+[1089.28 --> 1099.64]  And, um, you know, like if I'm making a blog post on the top 10, you know, cooking blogs for teens, um, you know, they want a list of that.
+[1099.70 --> 1105.38]  Well, you know, sometimes they just want the simple list and that's easy enough, but sometimes there's, there's a lot more in there where it's not clear.
+[1105.38 --> 1108.08]  Like, are you, are you looking for context there?
+[1108.16 --> 1109.44]  Like, what is it?
+[1109.44 --> 1120.58]  So a lot of times, um, what I'm finding is that I have to do a lot of education on like, you know, just, just the simple process of like, tell us what, tell us exactly what it is you want back and we'll get it right back to you.
+[1121.10 --> 1123.84]  Um, so yeah, none of that wishy-washy stuff you mentioned before.
+[1124.34 --> 1126.68]  Um, and that's, that's, that's, that's been a challenge now.
+[1126.74 --> 1129.88]  We, I think we just do a bad job of telling people how to do it.
+[1130.56 --> 1133.10]  Um, most of our clients are, are pretty good at it.
+[1133.10 --> 1135.60]  It's just, it's, it's an education thing.
+[1135.60 --> 1140.14]  I didn't realize how much that I would need to do education on, on, on things like that.
+[1140.24 --> 1153.68]  The other part, um, of the education coin is that we have, I finding that clients and me in particular, um, and, and a lot of people have trouble delegating.
+[1153.68 --> 1162.08]  Uh, you know, I don't think this is the kind of a natural thing to be doing for most people where it's, you know, what is it that I should send to fancy hands?
+[1162.20 --> 1163.92]  What is the type of thing that I should do?
+[1164.36 --> 1168.26]  And what we find is that people sign up with these high hopes.
+[1168.34 --> 1168.92]  They're so busy.
+[1168.98 --> 1169.54]  They're so busy.
+[1169.70 --> 1173.98]  And then they look at kind of everything they have on their plate and say, oh, well, only I can do this task.
+[1174.02 --> 1175.14]  Only I can do that one.
+[1175.66 --> 1178.58]  Uh, you know, I can't send this to anybody else because you need to know a lot about me.
+[1178.58 --> 1188.04]  Um, and then they'll say like, okay, well, I used to call and do this, but that's not worth, that's not worth, you know, however many dollars per month for me to have them do that task.
+[1188.10 --> 1189.48]  So I'll just do that on my own.
+[1189.80 --> 1191.86]  Um, cause they want to save it for a really big one.
+[1192.36 --> 1196.62]  And so at the end of the month, they spent all this money and didn't actually send in any tasks at all.
+[1197.14 --> 1201.54]  Uh, because they didn't, cause either they looked at a task and said, well, that's just too small.
+[1201.62 --> 1205.00]  That's not worth the money I'm paying or that's too big and only I can do it.
+[1205.00 --> 1220.48]  And the way I look at it is, um, send in those ones that are too small because they're not, um, it's not, might not be worth maybe two bucks or four bucks or however many it's going to be, uh, that you, you have to divide by to get the price.
+[1221.10 --> 1227.16]  It's that it's worth, it's not worth two bucks for me to make a reservation, to have someone make a reservation on my behalf.
+[1227.22 --> 1229.70]  But to me, it's worth two bucks for me not to do it.
+[1230.12 --> 1233.92]  And I think there's a distinction in there that is kind of tough to wrap your head around.
+[1233.92 --> 1238.40]  And then once you do, it's like, oh, that makes a lot of sense.
+[1238.46 --> 1241.92]  I don't need to, I'm not paying him to do this, right?
+[1241.94 --> 1244.70]  I'm paying him so that I don't have to do it.
+[1244.88 --> 1251.12]  You know, it's, there's, there's so much stuff in the day that, um, anybody can do, um, that you have to do.
+[1251.64 --> 1253.40]  And there's a lot of stuff that only you can do.
+[1253.40 --> 1259.76]  And, and our, our goal is to try to just do the stuff that own, that anybody can do and let you focus on the things that only you can do.
+[1259.76 --> 1265.80]  Like right now, you know, part of your job is, is to do this interview with me and to do the podcast.
+[1266.14 --> 1273.46]  Um, but in, in podcast production, I assume there's a whole lot of things that you personally don't need to do.
+[1273.54 --> 1274.46]  They just need to get done.
+[1274.46 --> 1279.20]  Um, and, and that's kind of our, our education.
+[1279.68 --> 1286.72]  That's kind of the problems we see when, when, when people come in and use the services that they see these different types of things they need to get done.
+[1286.72 --> 1288.34]  And they don't know which ones to give us.
+[1288.50 --> 1291.66]  And then there's, they haven't given us anything at the end of the month.
+[1291.66 --> 1295.66]  So we, we try to combat that with, um, education, right.
+[1295.66 --> 1298.76]  Telling people how, what to delegate, what's a good thing to delegate.
+[1299.08 --> 1303.68]  And we, we, we're trying, we tried to combat that now with saying, well, then don't worry about it.
+[1303.78 --> 1305.22]  Have as many tasks as you want.
+[1305.34 --> 1309.04]  You know, we have a new unlimited plan, which is just, it's not much more.
+[1309.04 --> 1314.16]  And all the only difference is in my mind was not that people were going to send in thousands of tasks per month.
+[1314.16 --> 1317.82]  It was that they wouldn't look at a task and say, oh, that's just not worth it.
+[1318.26 --> 1324.78]  You know, cause I, I, you know, I don't like people not sending in stuff because they think, you know, that it's not worth it.
+[1324.92 --> 1326.48]  Um, because it's too small.
+[1326.48 --> 1330.06]  And, you know, so I wanted to give them the incentive to send in those little ones.
+[1330.06 --> 1331.60]  And so that's how we have that one now.
+[1332.04 --> 1338.44]  So, you know, we're trying to combat that, I guess, on user education and, and also in technology and pricing.
+[1338.44 --> 1338.52]  Yeah.
+[1339.10 --> 1339.82]  That's kind of funny.
+[1339.82 --> 1350.12]  Cause I was going to actually use fancy hands to get a bit of details about Ted, you know, yourself and who you are and what you've been doing and all these other fun things you've talked to me about.
+[1350.20 --> 1353.90]  So I almost actually used fancy hands to, to, to do this.
+[1353.90 --> 1356.72]  But I think sometimes it's a little fun to do the research on your own to get to know the person.
+[1356.90 --> 1368.42]  So, um, in my case, I opted to do it myself, but I probably could have, um, easily requested some of the, um, you know, some research on you and just kind of gleaned over whatever they sent back.
+[1368.44 --> 1370.70]  But, uh, and I actually thought about that.
+[1370.80 --> 1375.44]  So you talked about a lot about what is, is happening, I guess, in terms of requests.
+[1375.56 --> 1376.88]  What are some of the common requests you get?
+[1377.88 --> 1381.16]  Uh, well, I always use reservations as a, uh, as one.
+[1381.24 --> 1382.96]  We get a lot of people making reservations.
+[1383.40 --> 1391.86]  Um, you know, just, just call this restaurant, you know, there, you know, if I, like, for example, if I think about a lot of times I think about, okay, tomorrow I'm going to go to dinner with my wife.
+[1392.70 --> 1397.18]  Um, but, you know, I'm thinking about this at real late at night and the restaurant's closed.
+[1397.18 --> 1398.92]  And so I just email fancy hands.
+[1398.96 --> 1401.74]  I say, Hey, make a reservation, you know, tomorrow at seven.
+[1402.00 --> 1408.42]  Um, and I, you know, I can't even do that in the middle of the night because, um, you know, they're not open, uh, for example.
+[1408.54 --> 1409.94]  So we get a lot of stuff like that.
+[1409.94 --> 1415.12]  Um, we're increasingly, we have, we have, we have kind of interesting, uh, user base.
+[1415.12 --> 1420.90]  We're, we're getting, um, a lot more people who are like, um, want us to wait on hold for a little bit.
+[1421.48 --> 1424.52]  So, you know, it's, it's, Oh, I need to return this thing.
+[1424.52 --> 1430.34]  So I need to call them up and get the RMA number or whatever it is that, you know, you need to do to get through this bureaucracy.
+[1430.50 --> 1430.82]  Right.
+[1431.32 --> 1434.58]  Um, and so they just kind of send in like, okay, this is the product I do.
+[1434.64 --> 1435.28]  This is my name.
+[1435.34 --> 1442.46]  This is the last part of my social, like any kind of non-incriminating things they can send to us and be like, just pretend you're me and handle this.
+[1442.46 --> 1449.40]  You know, so we'll call them up and we'll set on hold for a half hour while you, you know, schedule, schedule your cable or do this or that.
+[1449.90 --> 1451.32]  Um, and those work pretty well.
+[1451.38 --> 1456.34]  You know, we have a little bit more trouble canceling, uh, um, services for people.
+[1456.80 --> 1459.14]  Uh, but we, we have, we've had some success with that.
+[1460.04 --> 1462.78]  Um, what are the common ones?
+[1462.90 --> 1465.72]  Um, we get, uh, you know, we get a lot of kind of verticals, right?
+[1465.72 --> 1472.32]  So we get a lot of people who come in, um, because they have a lot to do around a certain aspect of their life.
+[1472.68 --> 1474.56]  Which is not something I planned at all.
+[1474.84 --> 1479.90]  Um, which is interesting because I kind of made the service around after having the baby and kind of to handle things around that.
+[1480.04 --> 1485.50]  But I was kind of, I made the service to handle tasks, not around the baby because I was going to deal with the baby.
+[1486.16 --> 1489.62]  Um, but we get a lot of people who are, uh, weddings are a big one.
+[1489.68 --> 1490.78]  So they're planning their wedding.
+[1490.78 --> 1496.42]  And there's so much you need to do, uh, for a wedding that you don't realize unless you're kind of going through it.
+[1496.88 --> 1503.80]  Um, from like, you know, you know, dealing with, you know, just recommendations on where to get cakes, where to get this and that.
+[1503.80 --> 1506.16]  And I really think that's a really great use case for us.
+[1506.18 --> 1509.30]  Cause at the end of the day with your wedding, it's your day, right?
+[1509.32 --> 1513.70]  You need to make the big major decisions, but like, there's kind of the legwork that we can do.
+[1513.78 --> 1521.36]  So you can get out in front of a task or, or you can, we can follow up, say, you know, well, can we call and just confirm that all these things are really going to happen tomorrow?
+[1521.36 --> 1525.48]  Um, because I'm going to be worrying about them, but I don't have time to deal with it by the day before I'm getting married.
+[1526.20 --> 1528.90]  Um, and so we get a lot of tasks like that.
+[1528.94 --> 1531.80]  Um, you know, honeymoon planning, wedding planning.
+[1532.26 --> 1536.06]  Um, we get a lot of kind of hotel recommendations.
+[1536.48 --> 1537.80]  Uh, you know, I'm going out of town.
+[1538.04 --> 1539.24]  I'm going to be at this hotel.
+[1540.00 --> 1542.62]  Um, you know, is there a better price I can get as there, this and that?
+[1542.94 --> 1551.34]  Um, you know, I, those, those we get a lot of, I don't, I don't know how, how much value we add there to be honest, but you know, we get a lot of them.
+[1551.36 --> 1552.24]  People are happy with them.
+[1552.68 --> 1554.08]  At least they're not having to do it themselves though.
+[1554.12 --> 1554.30]  Right?
+[1555.10 --> 1555.42]  Exactly.
+[1555.64 --> 1555.86]  Yeah.
+[1556.16 --> 1563.74]  Um, and, uh, we get a, we can do get a lot of questions as well that are, um, we get some odd ones.
+[1563.80 --> 1570.30]  We have, um, we have a lot of, um, I guess, um, small business owners who run the site.
+[1570.34 --> 1576.42]  And so we, we get a lot of, um, you know, people trying to outsource just aspects of, of, of running a business.
+[1576.42 --> 1580.56]  So, you know, generating, trying to figure out what are the best SEO terms for whatever.
+[1580.56 --> 1585.02]  Um, you know, finding, um, candidates to do this and that.
+[1585.26 --> 1593.64]  We had a great one the other day that was, I guess it's a wedding one that was, um, he, there was like, you know, four or five people coming to his bachelor party in Vegas or whatever.
+[1593.64 --> 1600.98]  And he had to call them at the last minute to make sure that they all brought suits for whatever reason, you know, whatever they, you know, doing at a bachelor party.
+[1601.06 --> 1602.66]  They, they all had to have their own suit.
+[1602.66 --> 1617.52]  And so our assistant called up, you know, these five people and, you know, just, just did that because, um, so I think, you know, in some ways there was, that probably could have been handled with an email, but I think there's something fun, um, about having an assistant call and, and, and talk to people.
+[1617.52 --> 1619.28]  And there's something kind of personal about it.
+[1619.28 --> 1623.76]  Um, so yeah, I'm blanking on other common requests.
+[1623.88 --> 1626.06]  It's, you would not believe how kind of scattered they all are.
+[1626.12 --> 1626.52]  We do.
+[1626.66 --> 1630.52]  I mean, it's, I would, I was thinking there was going to be a ton of super common ones.
+[1630.52 --> 1637.98]  And it turns out that, you know, people lead very different lives and need, you know, have very different, uh, uh, things that they need done.
+[1637.98 --> 1640.14]  So let's talk about the ones that you can't do.
+[1640.24 --> 1643.84]  So some examples of obvious fancy hands can't do this for you.
+[1644.78 --> 1654.00]  So, uh, I want to, you know, caveat this with saying we can't do these now because, um, with all the obvious ones that some of them are kind of head scratching them.
+[1654.00 --> 1654.94]  Why don't we do those?
+[1655.02 --> 1656.94]  Um, we have kind of good reasons on our end.
+[1657.20 --> 1662.46]  Uh, they haven't, but, um, we're about to do a lot more of these.
+[1662.46 --> 1665.58]  So right now we won't go anywhere for you physically.
+[1665.58 --> 1667.94]  Um, we won't go and pick up your dry cleaning.
+[1669.16 --> 1674.62]  Um, you know, we can't, we're not going to go, you know, pick something up or drop something off or, or anything like that.
+[1674.74 --> 1676.88]  Um, we'd really like to be able to do that.
+[1677.16 --> 1682.18]  Uh, you know, a lot of people have tried to crack that nut in the past, you know, in a lot of ways, Cosmo has tried to do it.
+[1682.70 --> 1690.44]  Um, these various services and, you know, to get from here to there, I think, I think that's a solvable problem that nobody's done.
+[1690.44 --> 1690.74]  Right.
+[1691.32 --> 1692.70]  Um, we're not there yet.
+[1692.78 --> 1694.08]  We're not going to be there for a little bit.
+[1694.08 --> 1700.42]  Um, maybe in certain cities, uh, you know, you could maybe anticipate something happening there, but certainly not, you know, nationwide.
+[1701.30 --> 1703.40]  Um, we can't go anywhere for you.
+[1703.46 --> 1706.00]  We don't right now, actually, we don't do international calls.
+[1706.44 --> 1708.64]  Um, and that will change very quickly.
+[1708.80 --> 1710.88]  It's just, it just proved too hard.
+[1711.40 --> 1715.12]  Um, language barriers got quick, uh, hairy real quick.
+[1715.12 --> 1726.22]  You know, just even just dealing with other, um, you know, you know, a deep Southern accent from the United States talking to a, um, you know, Northern Bavarian accent in Germany.
+[1726.22 --> 1729.78]  You know, like it was, it was just, you know, even if everyone was speaking English, it was a little tough.
+[1729.78 --> 1740.38]  And, um, and just on my end, kind of monitoring that we were, you know, getting through these was just got a little too tough that I decided, look, let's stop doing these for now.
+[1740.38 --> 1744.48]  Um, and, um, not offer it again until we can really get it right.
+[1745.16 --> 1749.26]  Um, we don't do a travel itineraries actually.
+[1749.86 --> 1756.02]  Um, which, which a lot of people want, you know, uh, and the reason is there's just so much give and take.
+[1756.02 --> 1765.36]  There's so much that we, that you have, um, you know, that we need to know about you and your trip in order to, to be able to kind of do that.
+[1765.36 --> 1776.18]  Well, um, I try, we try not to get into the situation where we are, um, going back and forth a whole lot just because we feel it's not, um, it's not productive for you.
+[1776.22 --> 1779.64]  If we're going back and forth five, six times on a task, like you should have done it yourself.
+[1779.76 --> 1781.18]  We're not saving you any time.
+[1781.58 --> 1783.58]  So, um, travel itineraries are out for that.
+[1783.64 --> 1787.30]  You know, we, we'll probably partner with somebody to handle those, but right now we don't do it.
+[1787.96 --> 1790.84]  And the other, what's the other big one that we never do?
+[1791.96 --> 1794.76]  Anything dealing with credit cards or exchanging money for someone?
+[1795.36 --> 1796.70]  So, uh, yeah.
+[1796.70 --> 1805.42]  That's the big one for me is thinking like, can I give you my credit card and have you, or at least have it stored so that whenever I need to have you do something you could do to my behalf and pay for it with no problems whatsoever.
+[1806.44 --> 1806.96]  That's right.
+[1807.04 --> 1808.76]  That's, that's one that's coming.
+[1809.18 --> 1810.52]  Um, we do not do that now.
+[1810.76 --> 1819.50]  That's one of our biggest requests is that, um, you know, just the simple stuff like send my mom flowers, you know, $70 worth of flowers, you know, something red.
+[1820.10 --> 1821.72]  Um, you know, we can't do that now.
+[1821.72 --> 1824.00]  Uh, and that, that stinks because I want that.
+[1824.00 --> 1826.98]  Um, you know, I'd like to, I'd like us to be able to do that.
+[1827.06 --> 1830.76]  And, and so we are beta testing that feature right now as we speak.
+[1831.48 --> 1833.46]  Um, you know, I want to make sure I get that one right.
+[1833.46 --> 1835.28]  You know, dealing with money, dealing with all that.
+[1835.74 --> 1838.94]  Um, we're not going to ever store your credit card information on our server.
+[1839.06 --> 1840.16]  So you don't have to worry about that.
+[1840.16 --> 1846.28]  Um, but we have a pretty good solution for it and I'm, I'm pretty excited about it.
+[1846.64 --> 1851.90]  Um, and that will launch, you know, in, in, you know, weeks or months, not years.
+[1851.90 --> 1853.88]  So, so expect that one soonish.
+[1854.36 --> 1860.08]  Um, the other one I want to point out, um, is that we don't do anything that I consider spammy.
+[1860.08 --> 1860.52]  Right.
+[1861.52 --> 1866.56]  Um, and this is, this sometimes, um, some of our, you know, this is kind of like the, uh,
+[1866.56 --> 1867.76]  the old Supreme court thing.
+[1867.76 --> 1869.04]  Like what, what is spammy?
+[1869.52 --> 1871.90]  Um, you know, well, I know it when I see it is the way I define it.
+[1872.48 --> 1877.66]  Uh, so we don't, you know, we will go and post something on a, um, on a forum for you.
+[1877.66 --> 1882.82]  Cause signing in, like if you need to, you know, a support request about Excel, you know,
+[1882.82 --> 1885.82]  and the best place to do it is on some forum, but you don't want to sign up for an account.
+[1885.92 --> 1887.24]  You have to wait for the email back.
+[1887.24 --> 1890.20]  You have to do this and that, you know, you send us that, this is the forum.
+[1890.54 --> 1894.06]  This is what I want posted, post it and send me the link and I'll monitor responses.
+[1894.30 --> 1895.30]  We will do that.
+[1895.36 --> 1900.68]  But what we won't do is like, um, post your, a link to your blog on a thousand different
+[1900.68 --> 1903.16]  comment sites or, or something like that.
+[1903.16 --> 1909.10]  Um, that's, that's one of the ones where it's like, I just don't want, it's not that,
+[1909.20 --> 1910.68]  you know, I don't think it's illegal.
+[1910.68 --> 1914.76]  It's just, that's one of those things that I don't want to be associated with shady business.
+[1914.76 --> 1915.14]  Right.
+[1915.14 --> 1918.66]  So, um, I want to be associated with like doing the right thing.
+[1918.66 --> 1922.96]  And so, um, anything vaguely spammy is just out of the picture for us.
+[1923.20 --> 1927.04]  So this isn't the first service out there like that though.
+[1927.06 --> 1930.80]  I mean, uh, fancy hands is not by any means, you know, groundbreaking.
+[1930.80 --> 1934.94]  I mean, I guess it isn't a lot of rights of, of the technology you wrote and very unique
+[1934.94 --> 1937.64]  things about your business, but there's other ones out there like cha-cha, aardvark,
+[1938.18 --> 1942.00]  a Sunday, and even the Goliath, Amazon's mechanical Turk.
+[1942.00 --> 1946.98]  What is it that, uh, you know, makes fancy hands different and special and fun?
+[1947.12 --> 1951.56]  And, you know, why are people wanting to buy from you and use fancy hands versus the other
+[1951.56 --> 1952.48]  services I just talked about?
+[1953.36 --> 1953.72]  Sure.
+[1953.86 --> 1955.80]  Well, there, there's a couple of the services you mentioned.
+[1955.88 --> 1957.06]  There's a, there's a few, you're right.
+[1957.12 --> 1961.44]  There's a ton of competition in this space and much more than I realized, like I said,
+[1961.50 --> 1965.24]  I, I created the service because I had used a lot of those other ones and they did not
+[1965.24 --> 1965.74]  work for me.
+[1965.74 --> 1970.50]  So with cha-cha and aardvark, those are, those are strictly question and answer sites, right?
+[1970.50 --> 1975.74]  So you, you can't ask cha-cha to call, you know, your mom and say, happy mother's day.
+[1976.12 --> 1977.98]  Um, not that you should do that with us.
+[1978.02 --> 1981.04]  You should call your own mother, but, uh, but you know what I mean?
+[1981.04 --> 1983.48]  You can't do those types of things with those services.
+[1983.48 --> 1985.42]  With ask Sunday, that's the kind of thing they do.
+[1985.72 --> 1990.92]  That's definitely, ask Sunday is, uh, uh, one of a direct competitor and, and, and I don't
+[1990.92 --> 1991.56]  want to leave any out.
+[1991.62 --> 1992.68]  I mean, there was a lot of there.
+[1992.78 --> 1993.34]  There's red Butler.
+[1993.34 --> 1995.18]  There's, uh, your man in India.
+[1995.32 --> 1998.30]  There's, um, there's a lot of services that do this.
+[1998.84 --> 2003.82]  Uh, uh, mechanical Turk is, is, is very different in that you've kind of have to, there's like
+[2003.82 --> 2005.40]  some programming type stuff involved.
+[2005.50 --> 2008.58]  You can't, you don't just going to fire off an email to mechanical Turk and have them handle
+[2008.58 --> 2009.38]  something for you.
+[2009.38 --> 2012.14]  Um, you also have to kind of go in there and deal with it.
+[2012.36 --> 2016.12]  The other one that is kind of a competitor is just Craigslist itself, right?
+[2016.14 --> 2019.60]  Because, you know, we're asking, you know, just for kind of one-off jobs, there's kind
+[2019.60 --> 2020.82]  of the et cetera job section.
+[2020.92 --> 2022.86]  You could easily handle a lot of this.
+[2023.34 --> 2029.32]  Well, we, we solve in a lot of ways from, from mechanical Turk and, um, and Craigslist
+[2029.32 --> 2032.50]  and things like that is that we handle kind of the end to end part of it.
+[2032.54 --> 2035.52]  So like you just send it in and stop worrying about it is kind of the theory.
+[2035.52 --> 2042.22]  So then that leaves, um, ask Sunday and, and, and, and the like that are doing much more.
+[2042.30 --> 2043.68]  They're doing the virtual assistant stuff.
+[2043.76 --> 2045.38]  They do a lot of data entry type things.
+[2045.88 --> 2047.74]  Um, a lot of the same types of stuff we do.
+[2048.12 --> 2054.54]  And, um, the big differentiator for us is that at least what's a great thing if you're an American,
+[2054.54 --> 2058.82]  at least is that you will only ever deal with Americans at fancy hands.
+[2058.82 --> 2063.22]  And this is not to be, this is not a, um, you know, America is better.
+[2063.44 --> 2067.44]  It's that, um, it really works a lot better this way.
+[2067.86 --> 2070.72]  Um, we have times and issues and the language issues.
+[2071.20 --> 2072.76]  There's no language.
+[2072.90 --> 2075.84]  There's no, I mean, the cultural stuff is different, you know,
+[2075.84 --> 2080.34]  and we even struggle with this, um, going back and forth with, you know,
+[2080.34 --> 2084.36]  we have clients in New Zealand and in England and, and around,
+[2084.36 --> 2090.12]  and even just kind of the slang between, um, England and, and America is different
+[2090.12 --> 2094.24]  to where there's communication breakdown there sometimes, which is, is really surprising.
+[2094.24 --> 2100.18]  So the communication breakdown when it's a second English is a second language type of situation is,
+[2100.28 --> 2101.98]  is, is huge.
+[2101.98 --> 2104.14]  And, and to not know the cultural stuff.
+[2104.14 --> 2108.20]  And so we have assistants in most cities, which, which a lot of people don't realize.
+[2108.20 --> 2111.60]  So like if you're in, uh, you're, are you in Houston?
+[2111.72 --> 2112.28]  Yeah.
+[2112.50 --> 2112.70]  Yeah.
+[2113.08 --> 2115.38]  Uh, I know, I know we have assistants down there.
+[2115.48 --> 2117.86]  Um, we have assists, a lot of them in New York, we have a lot in Portland.
+[2118.18 --> 2120.42]  And so, you know, if you're asking for something local,
+[2120.54 --> 2122.88]  there's a good chance you're going to get somebody who's in that town.
+[2123.02 --> 2126.78]  If you're, you're going to Philly, there's a good chance somebody from Philly is going to get your task.
+[2127.26 --> 2132.28]  Um, and it's going to be able to help out, uh, in a much more personal and much, you know,
+[2132.28 --> 2135.94]  we understand kind of, we have a common base to start from.
+[2136.22 --> 2139.92]  So, you know, just saying, oh, I'm going to Geno's, uh, can you make a reservation?
+[2140.66 --> 2148.56]  That's a tough thing to, um, uh, respond to if, if you don't know Philly, which is, you know,
+[2148.62 --> 2152.00]  I've never actually been to Geno's, but I know Geno's is a big famous place there.
+[2152.00 --> 2155.50]  And that you would go there and, and to, you know, you don't have to give us the phone number,
+[2155.56 --> 2156.78]  you know, you can figure these things out.
+[2156.98 --> 2158.08]  You know, you're looking at Geno's basically.
+[2158.90 --> 2159.26]  Exactly.
+[2159.38 --> 2159.62]  Yeah.
+[2159.74 --> 2165.02]  And, and, you know, you don't know, and even, you know, outside of that particular location,
+[2165.62 --> 2170.42]  a lot of people in America might know, but, but beyond that, it, it's, it's a non-starter.
+[2170.68 --> 2175.08]  So, um, right now our biggest, um, that's one of our big differentiators.
+[2175.08 --> 2181.84]  It's just that, that you personally will only deal with Americans, uh, at fancy ends.
+[2182.04 --> 2188.06]  Um, and then beyond that, um, I would say that our responses are way better.
+[2188.28 --> 2192.22]  You know, since you're only dealing with Americans, I pay them really well, um, because they're
+[2192.22 --> 2192.60]  Americans.
+[2192.82 --> 2195.44]  Uh, and you know, we have, that's just the way it works.
+[2195.48 --> 2200.18]  A lot of the reasons you outsource to India and to, um, you know, the other countries is
+[2200.18 --> 2201.54]  because it's so much cheaper.
+[2201.54 --> 2201.58]  Sure.
+[2201.96 --> 2206.86]  Well, my philosophy was, I figured out, I was trying to figure out a way to make it cheaper
+[2206.86 --> 2207.64]  to do it here.
+[2208.04 --> 2208.34]  You're right.
+[2208.62 --> 2210.54]  Employ a lot of as many Americans as possible.
+[2211.06 --> 2215.56]  Um, and I figured it would work a lot better and it turns out it does.
+[2215.56 --> 2218.50]  So, you know, you got people spending a lot of time on the tasks, trying to do a really
+[2218.50 --> 2220.84]  good job, um, because it's their job.
+[2221.06 --> 2227.90]  Um, and so I, I think that, um, because the pay is so hot, much higher for my end assistance,
+[2227.90 --> 2233.84]  um, and because they're Americans, you get a really, really good amount of response.
+[2233.84 --> 2236.58]  Also, we have just a ton of assistance working for me.
+[2237.02 --> 2240.60]  Um, you know, if you, if you send it, you generally get your response back pretty quick
+[2240.60 --> 2241.22]  on fancy ends.
+[2241.30 --> 2242.86]  There's no, we don't make any guarantees.
+[2242.86 --> 2245.66]  You know, you're not, we don't say you're going to get it back in an hour or a day.
+[2246.18 --> 2249.90]  Um, and to average it out is kind of weird because sometimes it's like, we'll call them
+[2249.90 --> 2250.50]  next week.
+[2250.50 --> 2252.84]  So you can't, you can't, you can't, you can't really have that one.
+[2252.84 --> 2253.28]  Yeah.
+[2253.84 --> 2258.70]  So, um, but our response time is generally pretty good because there's so many people
+[2258.70 --> 2262.04]  looking at it, you know, and, and we, we spent a lot of time hiring people.
+[2262.48 --> 2265.32]  Um, we spent a lot of time letting them go if they're not working out.
+[2265.92 --> 2270.74]  Um, and we spent a lot of time, like, you know, I look at a lot of tasks, you know, and,
+[2270.74 --> 2272.22]  and try to determine at the end of the day.
+[2272.24 --> 2273.88]  And I say, do we do a good job?
+[2273.90 --> 2274.78]  Are we doing a bad job?
+[2275.30 --> 2280.66]  Um, I try to work with client assistance, me personally to say, um, assistants and clients
+[2280.66 --> 2283.74]  to say, how can we better solve this particular type of task?
+[2283.86 --> 2286.68]  And so once we figured that out, kind of everybody else benefits.
+[2287.02 --> 2292.52]  Um, and so, you know, I'm totally biased, um, because I think the quality is definitely
+[2292.52 --> 2293.44]  the big differentiator.
+[2293.94 --> 2298.38]  Um, but I'm biased having built the service because I was frustrated with the other ones.
+[2298.64 --> 2300.38]  So grain of salt either way.
+[2300.46 --> 2300.62]  Right.
+[2301.52 --> 2304.06]  So you mentioned your assistants, you got thousands of assistants.
+[2304.06 --> 2305.26]  Can you mention how many?
+[2305.78 --> 2307.10]  So, sorry, it's not thousands.
+[2307.28 --> 2308.36]  I'm a good exaggerator.
+[2308.36 --> 2313.62]  Um, so, uh, the right number is, is pretty tough.
+[2313.80 --> 2322.84]  There, I think are, um, about five to 600, um, you know, employed that can work, uh, at
+[2322.84 --> 2323.38]  any given moment.
+[2323.46 --> 2327.98]  Now I don't require them to work any given day, you know, they can kind of come and go
+[2327.98 --> 2328.52]  as they please.
+[2329.08 --> 2334.82]  Um, and so there's a good chance some of the 500 are no longer, are never going to come
+[2334.82 --> 2335.08]  back.
+[2335.08 --> 2342.36]  Um, but I would say on a, on a, you know, given day, given week, we have about, uh, close
+[2342.36 --> 2344.42]  to 200 eyes on them.
+[2344.76 --> 2349.40]  Um, and fewer than that who end up responding to tasks, uh, on a given day.
+[2349.84 --> 2351.20]  So what's in it for the assistant?
+[2351.28 --> 2352.78]  Like what's in it for, what's keep them motivated?
+[2352.92 --> 2356.50]  You mentioned they're Americans and they're kind of local, you know, what kind of person
+[2356.50 --> 2358.20]  is an assistant and how do you become an assistant?
+[2358.20 --> 2364.98]  So, um, you just, you sign up, there's a, the, the application, there's a fairly long
+[2364.98 --> 2367.50]  application process actually is how you sign up.
+[2367.64 --> 2372.66]  And, um, you know, once you get through the, that whole process, you know, um, you know,
+[2372.66 --> 2375.98]  you, you get hired in a way it's, it's, it's all very automated.
+[2376.36 --> 2381.90]  Um, and at the end of it, you know, I, um, it comes to me where I say I, whether or not
+[2381.90 --> 2385.00]  we hire them and that's, that's kind of how that happens.
+[2385.00 --> 2386.12]  What keeps them in it.
+[2386.14 --> 2390.98]  So, I mean, they get paid every, you know, two weeks, like everybody else, um, they get,
+[2391.14 --> 2397.16]  you get paid more for the more tasks you do, you know, certain tasks are, uh, a little
+[2397.16 --> 2397.82]  bit more difficult.
+[2398.46 --> 2402.92]  Um, obviously, you know, it's a phone call is not the same as an hour's worth of data
+[2402.92 --> 2403.26]  entry.
+[2404.30 --> 2409.28]  Um, and so, you know, the, the scale slides based on that.
+[2409.52 --> 2414.98]  Um, but what, what, what keeps them motivated is, is, um, you know, the, the, the, the,
+[2414.98 --> 2417.72]  they are really in it with me, you know, we're, we're trying to build something.
+[2417.72 --> 2423.22]  And I think a lot of the assistants are, are really excited, um, to be building something,
+[2423.46 --> 2426.12]  you know, we're, we think we're onto something here.
+[2426.40 --> 2429.04]  Um, and I think a lot of the assistants are excited about that.
+[2429.10 --> 2433.06]  You know, a lot of them are, have been on since day one, which I'm, I'm so surprised
+[2433.06 --> 2435.26]  with that, um, a lot of them have stuck around.
+[2435.62 --> 2438.44]  Um, the type of people they are is, is really interesting.
+[2438.52 --> 2440.72]  I used to keep a much better track of this.
+[2440.72 --> 2443.34]  Um, you know, some of them have day jobs.
+[2443.60 --> 2448.62]  So, um, there's a, there's a, you know, a lot of people who go work at a day job and
+[2448.62 --> 2452.46]  they kind of do this at night, um, or work nights and do some during the day.
+[2452.46 --> 2456.84]  We have, uh, we've always said, we always have a, a small number of stay at home moms,
+[2456.84 --> 2458.10]  uh, on it.
+[2458.20 --> 2465.30]  I, there used to be, um, uh, a bunch of kind of extra actors, like, you know, extras and TV
+[2465.30 --> 2466.24]  shows and things like that.
+[2466.24 --> 2470.34]  Um, which I guess is because they have a lot of downtime, right?
+[2470.34 --> 2475.22]  So they, you know, they go out and they film whatever, and then they sit in a tent, you
+[2475.22 --> 2479.86]  know, for two hours and, uh, wait for the next scene or whatever it is.
+[2479.98 --> 2482.90]  And they'll just sit there with their laptops and just kind of plow through stuff.
+[2483.00 --> 2488.70]  And, um, what I hear most of all that from the best assistants that I have, the ones who,
+[2488.76 --> 2494.22]  who have been around the longest and the ones who consistently put out, uh, really great
+[2494.22 --> 2497.40]  responses is that they think the job is fun.
+[2498.04 --> 2502.06]  Uh, they think it's like a little bit like a scavenger hunt in a lot of ways, because a
+[2502.06 --> 2505.82]  lot of times it's, uh, they're asking about something that they didn't know about before.
+[2506.66 --> 2509.98]  And it's like a lot of times if somebody wants to know about it, like if you're asking about
+[2509.98 --> 2514.56]  something, um, it's interesting in some way you can get, you can get excited about it.
+[2514.60 --> 2516.94]  Now, sometimes it's, it's data entry or whatever.
+[2516.94 --> 2521.22]  It's not as interesting, but, um, like there's a great one that, that is even up on the blog.
+[2521.22 --> 2526.94]  That was, um, someone asked what like physiologically is the lump in your throat when you start to
+[2526.94 --> 2527.24]  cry?
+[2527.36 --> 2527.72]  Yeah.
+[2527.72 --> 2529.16]  I saw that on your blog, but I liked that one.
+[2529.22 --> 2530.26]  It's fascinating, right?
+[2530.32 --> 2531.70]  Like who, like who, okay.
+[2531.78 --> 2536.50]  Now that you know that you go check my blog, you don't need to actually go research it,
+[2536.50 --> 2538.76]  uh, fancyhands.tumblr.com.
+[2539.38 --> 2545.04]  Um, and the answer is there, but, but if, when, if you have to look that up, like that's kind
+[2545.04 --> 2547.60]  of an interesting thing to go and look up and to, and to find out.
+[2547.60 --> 2551.72]  Um, and so we get a lot of, a lot of people who are actually like doing those kinds of
+[2551.72 --> 2552.02]  things.
+[2552.56 --> 2557.30]  Um, what I find also is that there are sometimes like someone wants you to call to complain
+[2557.30 --> 2562.74]  about something or to, um, you know, because they, you know, somebody didn't do a good job
+[2562.74 --> 2563.74]  for you or whatever it was.
+[2564.12 --> 2568.08]  Um, and so we call them up and, and that's a hard call to make on your own, right?
+[2568.12 --> 2573.22]  If you're gonna, you know, if you're making an uncomfortable call on your own behalf, but it's
+[2573.22 --> 2574.82]  kind of fun to do it for somebody else.
+[2574.82 --> 2578.08]  There's some, there's something kind of, you know, nice about it.
+[2578.10 --> 2582.10]  It's like, I'm calling cause he's angry about this and you know, we need a refund and blah,
+[2582.12 --> 2582.38]  blah, blah.
+[2582.50 --> 2583.98]  And it's, it's a lot of fun to do.
+[2584.24 --> 2586.22]  Um, yeah.
+[2586.56 --> 2590.16]  And so, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of good ones and, and then there's a
+[2590.16 --> 2595.36]  lot of, um, that's kind of spiced in with kind of the day to day stuff that, um, that
+[2595.36 --> 2595.76]  they're doing.
+[2595.88 --> 2598.74]  And, uh, I think it keeps it interesting for them.
+[2598.74 --> 2606.16]  So, uh, yeah, that's, that's, I think why they stick around is cause they get entertained
+[2606.16 --> 2607.82]  and paid.
+[2608.60 --> 2612.90]  And, uh, I guess since we're about six months into this idea, it's, we've already proved
+[2612.90 --> 2613.44]  it's successful.
+[2613.44 --> 2614.16]  It's making money.
+[2614.20 --> 2615.66]  It's, it's profitable from day one.
+[2616.24 --> 2619.88]  Um, when you look back on the last six months or even, I guess, before that too, cause you
+[2619.88 --> 2624.72]  had some time to, to research and develop this technology and decide on the idea and push
+[2624.72 --> 2624.98]  forward.
+[2624.98 --> 2629.10]  What are some of the lessons that you can look back on the last six months and say, well,
+[2629.10 --> 2631.62]  I've learned this, I've learned that in creating fancy.
+[2631.72 --> 2633.30]  And like, what are some of the things you've learned?
+[2633.62 --> 2637.12]  Maybe, maybe good things, fails, achievements, whatever.
+[2637.90 --> 2647.02]  Um, I've learned, um, a lot about, uh, I, you know, I, you know, I'm trying, I try not
+[2647.02 --> 2648.38]  to make the mistakes in advance.
+[2648.44 --> 2649.64]  I try to learn from other people.
+[2649.64 --> 2656.60]  And so, um, but of, of them, I learned a lot from reading about Dropbox.
+[2656.96 --> 2661.04]  Um, I've learned that I can find parallels to this business and other businesses.
+[2661.04 --> 2664.56]  And, and, um, there's a couple of, of interesting ones.
+[2664.68 --> 2665.16]  Dropbox.
+[2665.24 --> 2669.94]  I think we have a lot, I have a lot of similarities with when it comes to marketing, because they
+[2669.94 --> 2674.62]  always said that, um, nobody's looking for Dropbox before they use it.
+[2674.62 --> 2679.98]  Uh, Dropbox is a, uh, you know, it's a folder that you get and it syncs up online and then
+[2679.98 --> 2682.54]  you kind of have this kind of backup kind of shared folder thing.
+[2682.58 --> 2683.48]  It's really great service.
+[2683.98 --> 2686.82]  Um, but no one's looking for it because they don't, if they, you don't know what exists,
+[2686.86 --> 2687.94]  you're not looking for it.
+[2688.38 --> 2693.40]  Um, so you can't, you can't put a Google ad word up and expect to get a million hits on
+[2693.40 --> 2693.62]  that.
+[2693.62 --> 2696.76]  Just like I can't, you know, no one's looking for a virtual assistant.
+[2696.76 --> 2699.88]  They're looking for help planning their wedding, right?
+[2699.92 --> 2701.02]  They're looking for this and that.
+[2701.02 --> 2705.28]  And so it took me a long time to realize that it's not that I can't advertise.
+[2705.62 --> 2707.42]  It's that I can't advertise my service.
+[2707.42 --> 2710.66]  I have to advertise, um, what we give you.
+[2711.16 --> 2712.90]  Um, and so that's, that's been very interesting.
+[2712.98 --> 2716.52]  And so I'm not actually doing those kinds of advertisements now, but I hope to in the
+[2716.52 --> 2716.78]  future.
+[2717.36 --> 2723.94]  Um, I've learned a little bit about pricing, about, um, you know, how to move pricing
+[2723.94 --> 2726.78]  around, um, and what it is.
+[2726.78 --> 2733.16]  And, um, you know, we had, uh, a lot of plans, uh, since it started.
+[2733.22 --> 2737.86]  So it started out, um, that you get 15 tasks for so many dollars.
+[2738.14 --> 2741.36]  And then a lot of people were like, wanted to try it for cheaper.
+[2741.36 --> 2746.00]  And so I introduced a slightly cheaper version with, um, a lot less tasks.
+[2746.00 --> 2752.22]  Um, and that was, you know, fairly popular, but I ended up dropping that one, um, and adding
+[2752.22 --> 2756.64]  one that went the other way, which is a little bit more money and a lot more tasks, um, because
+[2756.64 --> 2757.56]  of what I said about earlier.
+[2758.28 --> 2764.82]  And, um, it's been interesting to me to see that that's actually been proven much more
+[2764.82 --> 2768.16]  successful, having the more expensive one than adding the less expensive one.
+[2768.16 --> 2773.94]  Um, and, and there's, there's a lot of reasons in there for that, but, but I, one of the
+[2773.94 --> 2778.72]  things I've learned is that I, I'm not super, um, concerned about playing around with the
+[2778.72 --> 2779.30]  pricing now.
+[2779.36 --> 2783.06]  I feel like I feel comfortable that I can do it and I don't get it.
+[2783.06 --> 2786.64]  You know, there's not a huge backlash and I'm not changing people's prices that on the
+[2786.64 --> 2790.62]  site, like who already signed up, but you know, playing with the plans a little bit and
+[2790.62 --> 2791.36]  finding it out.
+[2791.36 --> 2798.60]  I'm also finding out, um, AB testing is really hard when you don't have a whole lot of hits
+[2798.60 --> 2799.72]  coming to your site every day.
+[2800.04 --> 2803.48]  Cause you know, this is the kind of service you sign up and then you really never come
+[2803.48 --> 2804.78]  back to the site, right?
+[2804.80 --> 2806.46]  You, you do some emails or whatever.
+[2806.46 --> 2810.94]  So, um, I don't get a whole lot of traffic on the website, which is, is good and bad, but
+[2810.94 --> 2815.20]  I can't, uh, I can't do all those fun AB tests that everybody likes to talk about because
+[2815.20 --> 2816.40]  I'm just not getting the traffic.
+[2816.40 --> 2820.78]  So, you know, one or two different, you know, results has been.
+[2821.36 --> 2824.82]  Um, you know, there's not a whole lot I can learn from that.
+[2825.50 --> 2830.92]  Um, yeah, my biggest, my biggest learn that I have to say is around the advertising.
+[2830.92 --> 2832.68]  You know, we did a display ad.
+[2832.78 --> 2834.96]  Um, it just didn't do anything for us.
+[2835.58 --> 2839.58]  Um, yet when somebody tweets, we almost always get a sign up.
+[2839.64 --> 2842.66]  So it's, you know, you take what you can get.
+[2843.34 --> 2847.34]  Um, you do work with, uh, influence though, right?
+[2847.34 --> 2850.04]  Cause I've actually seen your ad on the influence network.
+[2850.04 --> 2854.86]  We, we did have one in the flow ads and it's not, they may still be running.
+[2854.96 --> 2860.20]  It was only, it only ran, I think in August, um, is when it ran or I don't know if it's
+[2860.20 --> 2864.84]  still up, but, um, we had, um, those are great people to work with really great guys.
+[2865.52 --> 2869.16]  Uh, but like I said, I think our service is a little bit harder to advertise.
+[2869.16 --> 2874.58]  Um, and so we kind of did, uh, we had, uh, we had, uh, some ads up that were kind of
+[2874.58 --> 2877.52]  about the service and, oh, you get this much for that or whatever it was.
+[2878.04 --> 2880.80]  And we just weren't getting enough traction on it.
+[2880.80 --> 2884.94]  So we just changed it to a strictly branding thing to show, have our little guy, have our
+[2884.94 --> 2886.72]  little logo up and have it around on sites.
+[2886.72 --> 2892.02]  Um, I thought it would be a, um, that's what we ended up moving to, right?
+[2892.14 --> 2896.20]  You know, just trying to raise brand awareness rather than to get signups, which is, was not
+[2896.20 --> 2896.92]  actually my goal.
+[2897.06 --> 2900.28]  So I, you know, I, I viewed that as, as not a success.
+[2900.78 --> 2904.10]  Um, the way we had that way that advertising went down.
+[2904.10 --> 2910.20]  Um, but like I said, you know, like, um, we had, we had a Twitter program actually where
+[2910.20 --> 2915.24]  I I'm very adamant about not having a free service because I, you know, I'm not smart
+[2915.24 --> 2917.16]  enough to run a freemium model.
+[2917.40 --> 2921.46]  I don't know how it works in this, you know, maybe it will, maybe I'll be able to figure
+[2921.46 --> 2921.78]  it out.
+[2922.18 --> 2924.18]  So, so, so I'm not doing that.
+[2924.56 --> 2931.04]  Uh, what I did do for a short time was add, if you sent out a tweet, you could get a free
+[2931.04 --> 2931.82]  task, right?
+[2931.88 --> 2932.66]  Without signing up.
+[2932.66 --> 2934.28]  So you could essentially get a freebie.
+[2935.52 --> 2938.88]  And our thought was, well, you know, people will see these tweets and then, you know,
+[2939.16 --> 2942.84]  they'll sign up, you know, we'll get enough people signing up or after they get that one
+[2942.84 --> 2944.08]  task out of the way, they'll sign up.
+[2944.38 --> 2949.30]  But what I found is that if you're not paying for the site, um, for the service, you kind
+[2949.30 --> 2952.24]  of, the, you just kind of send in any old thing you want.
+[2952.32 --> 2956.32]  You don't, you don't kind of think, okay, how can I get the best use out of this service?
+[2956.34 --> 2958.18]  You just kind of send it, oh, let's see what they do here.
+[2958.68 --> 2962.64]  Um, which turns out to be, makes that a hard task for us to follow up on.
+[2962.66 --> 2964.10]  Cause it might be poorly worded or whatever.
+[2964.42 --> 2969.34]  And then you're much more quick to say, oh, well, the service isn't working at all because
+[2969.34 --> 2970.26]  you didn't pay for it.
+[2970.26 --> 2974.04]  You have nothing to lose by not by just, you know, cutting and running.
+[2974.18 --> 2977.46]  Whereas if you paid, you're going to want to try to stick around and try to figure out
+[2977.46 --> 2978.92]  how to work the service, how everything works.
+[2978.92 --> 2980.00]  Well, they're much more invested.
+[2980.06 --> 2982.04]  They're more invested user at that point then basically.
+[2982.56 --> 2982.90]  Absolutely.
+[2983.30 --> 2988.98]  And so one thing I found was that the, the free thing really, I mean, we didn't lose
+[2988.98 --> 2991.00]  a lot of, you know, money on it.
+[2991.16 --> 2998.30]  Um, but I think we lost a lot of, um, it just, it just was a bad experience I think for, for
+[2998.30 --> 3002.84]  me and for, for our assistants who had kind of these tasks that, you know, were hard,
+[3003.18 --> 3004.72]  different, we're just different.
+[3004.72 --> 3006.58]  We're not, you know, solvable or whatever.
+[3007.24 --> 3012.02]  Um, and so that, that I think has been one of my biggest fails is that I was so adamant,
+[3012.08 --> 3013.64]  never free, never free, nothing free.
+[3013.96 --> 3018.08]  And then I kind of buckled and did the little free thing and it just, just didn't work for
+[3018.08 --> 3018.32]  us.
+[3018.32 --> 3020.42]  Um, you know, we didn't get a lot of signups out of it.
+[3020.52 --> 3025.64]  You know, the, the whole from start to bottom, I think it was a poorly conceived and poorly
+[3025.64 --> 3026.68]  executed idea.
+[3027.52 --> 3028.44]  We all have those.
+[3028.50 --> 3029.88]  That's a, that happens in every story.
+[3029.88 --> 3034.06]  That's why I, I, I love asking founders like yourself the question of, you know, what have
+[3034.06 --> 3038.26]  you learned, uh, both, you know, successes as well as failures, because I think there's
+[3038.26 --> 3039.36]  something you can extract from that.
+[3039.48 --> 3044.78]  Like you said earlier, um, you know, in your quest with fancy hands is that you didn't want
+[3044.78 --> 3048.86]  to, um, make the mistakes and then learn from the mistakes.
+[3048.86 --> 3052.72]  You wanted to kind of learn from Dropbox, learn from others who've been down the same
+[3052.72 --> 3056.46]  parallels, the same scenarios you've been down to, to not have to waste your time with
+[3056.46 --> 3057.02]  making mistakes.
+[3057.06 --> 3058.60]  And I think in this case, it's kind of the same way.
+[3059.52 --> 3060.26]  Yeah, absolutely.
+[3060.72 --> 3061.02]  Yeah.
+[3061.46 --> 3062.92]  And I hope, I hope someone can learn from that.
+[3062.92 --> 3068.74]  I hope, uh, you know, like I said, I feel that I feel that, you know, freemium works
+[3068.74 --> 3069.56]  in a lot of services.
+[3069.90 --> 3075.42]  It does not work in a service where for everything you have, you know, for every time you do
+[3075.42 --> 3077.80]  something, I have to pay somebody else.
+[3077.80 --> 3078.04]  Right.
+[3078.16 --> 3080.16]  So a tweet coming in is easy, right?
+[3080.18 --> 3083.80]  Like there's not, there's no real cost on their end, at least for one tweet.
+[3083.86 --> 3087.46]  I know at the scale of their running, there's a whole lot of cost to running Twitter, but
+[3087.46 --> 3090.92]  you know, for a blog post, if you're running a blog service, you know, it's easy to do a
+[3090.92 --> 3091.62]  freemium model there.
+[3091.72 --> 3093.40]  It's much more difficult in mine.
+[3093.90 --> 3100.72]  And so, you know, I'm just very weary of, of business models and practices, um, that
+[3100.72 --> 3106.92]  I can't kind of get around, you know, in my head in less than, you know, I don't know,
+[3107.40 --> 3108.76]  10 seconds worth of thinking about it.
+[3108.78 --> 3110.14]  Like, this is how I make money.
+[3110.14 --> 3111.78]  This is how I get users.
+[3112.12 --> 3117.78]  Um, and that's, that, that to me is how the only way I can figure out how to run a business.
+[3117.92 --> 3119.92]  And I'm not, I'm not smart enough in any other ways.
+[3119.96 --> 3121.46]  I didn't go to business school and things like that.
+[3121.46 --> 3124.46]  So I have to, uh, I have to be very, very simple for myself.
+[3124.98 --> 3129.94]  I guess the last thing I wanted to ask you, and it's sort of, um, the funnest question,
+[3129.98 --> 3134.42]  I think really, uh, and you can answer it, you can not answer it, but, uh, do you have
+[3134.42 --> 3138.90]  anything super secret that's in the works that you haven't told anybody else and no
+[3138.90 --> 3143.60]  blog or publication like rewrite right web is, uh, about to announce it, but do you have
+[3143.60 --> 3146.96]  anything super secret in the works with fancy hands that you'd like to announce today here
+[3146.96 --> 3147.32]  on the show?
+[3148.40 --> 3154.22]  Oh, um, I have a lot that I, a super secret stuff that I'm, I'm working on.
+[3154.32 --> 3160.80]  I'm, um, and I'm very excited about, you know, the, um, you know, the paid, uh, you know,
+[3160.80 --> 3165.66]  that we'll be able to, you'll be able to let us pay for things for you is going to be
+[3165.66 --> 3166.08]  one of them.
+[3166.98 --> 3176.44]  Um, I would, for the other secret ones, I littered my, uh, rambles so far with hints to a few
+[3176.44 --> 3179.82]  of them on purpose so that I could say, I talked about it once before.
+[3180.34 --> 3186.32]  So, um, rather than tell you now, I'll ask you to go back and listen through and find it
+[3186.32 --> 3186.60]  there.
+[3186.60 --> 3192.36]  Um, and then, um, but yeah, no, there, there are some really interesting stuff.
+[3192.36 --> 3198.20]  I think that we're going to come up with soon, but nothing I can talk about that, uh, bluntly
+[3198.20 --> 3198.70]  right now.
+[3199.08 --> 3202.90]  Well, the, the paying for me and stuff like that certainly gets me excited because that's
+[3202.90 --> 3207.26]  sort of the next step I'd like to go with using fancy hands is, you know, being able
+[3207.26 --> 3210.64]  to have some shared place where I can, like you said, you're not going to store the credit
+[3210.64 --> 3214.40]  card, but however that works out basically to be able to let you pay for things on my behalf.
+[3214.40 --> 3216.22]  That's, that's gonna be some fun stuff.
+[3216.36 --> 3217.50]  So I'm excited about that.
+[3217.52 --> 3217.84]  I think that's a big killer.
+[3218.08 --> 3219.62]  I can't, I can't wait for that as a user.
+[3219.96 --> 3220.46]  I mean, just.
+[3221.34 --> 3222.42]  Let's show you're a user too.
+[3222.64 --> 3225.74]  I mean, like you and I, we're both, uh, we're both users of fancy hands.
+[3226.38 --> 3226.68]  Yeah.
+[3226.92 --> 3227.94]  I'm, I'm user number one.
+[3228.06 --> 3233.16]  You know, a lot of people don't believe it, but I, I even pay, uh, what's my, is my unit
+[3233.16 --> 3235.68]  testing to make sure that the payments work every month.
+[3235.80 --> 3236.04]  Right.
+[3236.10 --> 3237.50]  Every month, 35 bucks.
+[3237.62 --> 3238.62]  Every month, 35 bucks.
+[3238.62 --> 3244.24]  Um, I guess the other questions I have, I guess as it closes, uh, is more so just for
+[3244.24 --> 3247.96]  you to let the audience know, you know, what the web address is, how they can follow you
+[3247.96 --> 3249.58]  on Twitter, you know, those fun things.
+[3249.62 --> 3250.58]  So how can people get in touch?
+[3250.64 --> 3251.80]  How can they, how can they sign up?
+[3252.84 --> 3253.20]  Sure.
+[3253.20 --> 3260.14]  Um, you know, you can sign up at the website, um, www.fancyhands.com.
+[3260.82 --> 3266.98]  Uh, there's a bell boy there you'll see, um, on the page and everything else is fancy hands.
+[3267.08 --> 3270.36]  So we use Twitter it's, you know, at fancy hands.
+[3270.62 --> 3275.88]  Um, and that's a very low volume type of, uh, type of feed.
+[3275.88 --> 3280.44]  And also we're on Twitter or a Tumblr where I'm fairly active on Tumblr and a lot of accounts
+[3280.44 --> 3283.54]  and that's fancy hands.tumblr.com.
+[3283.96 --> 3291.50]  Uh, and there we post a lot of kind of things about productivity and, um, great ways to use
+[3291.50 --> 3294.30]  the service, uh, growing pains, you know, general announcements.
+[3294.74 --> 3297.22]  Um, but it's, it's not definitely not a business e blog.
+[3297.22 --> 3302.20]  It's, it's a, but it is a good way to keep track of, uh, what we're doing on a day to day
+[3302.20 --> 3302.60]  basis.
+[3302.60 --> 3308.90]  And I guess if you're a member of Founders Card, there's a special membership plan just
+[3308.90 --> 3311.76]  for us Founders, Founders Card, uh, members.
+[3311.90 --> 3314.86]  So you should check that out as well if you are a Founders Card member.
+[3315.40 --> 3315.74]  Correct.
+[3315.84 --> 3315.96]  Yeah.
+[3315.98 --> 3319.70]  Just go to your, uh, Founders Card, um, go to the page.
+[3319.78 --> 3321.46]  There's a fancy hands page right in there.
+[3321.48 --> 3323.00]  And, uh, that's a really good deal.
+[3323.42 --> 3323.64]  Yeah.
+[3323.68 --> 3328.08]  I actually, that's what I, like I said earlier, before we got on the podcast, I'm a Founders
+[3328.08 --> 3328.76]  Card member as well.
+[3328.76 --> 3332.74]  And that was one of the deciding factors for me to actually want to be a part of Founders
+[3332.74 --> 3332.92]  Card.
+[3332.98 --> 3336.54]  I knew it was cool, but I was thinking, is there at least two or three things in it right
+[3336.54 --> 3340.64]  away that I can grab a hold of that's going to save me and be worth the initial investment
+[3340.64 --> 3341.70]  of actually becoming a member.
+[3341.86 --> 3345.86]  So I guess that should be like a kudos to you to say that, you know, you fancy hands
+[3345.86 --> 3349.48]  was, uh, was one of the deciding criteria for me to get on board.
+[3349.58 --> 3350.04]  So that's cool.
+[3350.54 --> 3350.86]  Awesome.
+[3351.14 --> 3353.46]  Well, I'll, uh, I'll let, uh, Nat and them know.
+[3354.34 --> 3356.70]  Maybe they'll give me some, some kickback.
+[3356.70 --> 3356.86]  Maybe.
+[3357.14 --> 3357.50]  Maybe.
+[3358.30 --> 3360.82]  Uh, but Hey, Ted, it was, it was awesome to have you on the show.
+[3360.92 --> 3365.22]  I really appreciate you taking the time to come out and, and talk with us about fancy
+[3365.22 --> 3365.58]  hands.
+[3365.66 --> 3369.38]  I think this personal assistance in the cloud is, is definitely a breakthrough.
+[3369.44 --> 3373.34]  I think it's been tried before, but I love a lot of the things that you're doing with
+[3373.34 --> 3375.98]  it and I wish you the best, the best of luck, my friend.
+[3376.80 --> 3377.24]  Thank you.
+[3377.26 --> 3378.00]  I appreciate it.
+[3378.00 --> 3379.08]  Uh, thanks for having me on.