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**Erik St. Martin:** To kind of go more in-depth about the blind SQL attack, an example of that would be -- most of the time when you see a SQL injection you'll see where people try to login, with a username, and they'll put their parenthesis and stuff, but basically you could do `where username like%; sleep()`. Then b... |
**Aaron Hnatiw:** It's really crazy. One book I'd recommend for anyone that's interested in web application security - I would say this is probably the standard book you can reference... You don't even need to read it from cover to cover, just using it as a reference is important; it's called [The Web Application Hacke... |
**Erik St. Martin:** I don't think I have that one. |
**Aaron Hnatiw:** It's really good. I think it's at the second edition now. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Yeah, most of those books are in like their second, third, fourth edition. It's like the same problems keep repeating themselves. |
**Aaron Hnatiw:** Yeah. It's just that it evolves so much and so quickly over time... That's one of the things I love about it - it's a constant game of learning and cat and mouse, but because of that it's hard to have a standard paper book as a medium nowadays, because it's so fast. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Before we kind of close out on this, there's a couple of things I'm interested in... Do you think that the nomenclature between the sides helps create that kind of polarization? You know, "red team vs. blue team", it kind of creates that tension between the sides? Do you think there's a way that we... |
**Aaron Hnatiw:** That's a really good point. It's funny you bring that up - that's the thing I'm researching most right now. There's a term that covers this movement towards integration of developers, operations and security, and it sounds very buzzwordy, but... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** It's the dumbest term ever. \[laughter\] |
**Aaron Hnatiw:** I know, I don't necessarily agree with the term; saying it, I feel... Anyways, it's called _DevSecOps_. The way I look at it, it's just an integration between those three groups. The idea is to have developers, operations and security work together in a lot more ways. From what I've learned when I'm w... |
There's no way that you can automate everything; I really don't believe that at least in the next 5-10 years everything will be automated away in security, because things are changing so much and there's so much room for creativity... But there are certain common things that you can automate, even just doing regular ex... |
\[39:55\] And then where the education standpoint comes in is -- there's a few approaches to this. One is like a _Security Champions_, so to have an individual in each team represent security. There's also _Center Of Excellence_, where you have one security group where they then disseminate information through the orga... |
That's where things like the [OWASP Top 10](https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Top_10_2013-Top_10) comes in handy, which is the top 10 most common security vulnerabilities on the web. It's a little older, but it's the [SANS and CWE Top 25 most dangerous software errors](https://www.sans.org/top25-software-errors). There's... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** So there's one thing that I wanna add in terms of automated help... HP Labs released an app called Gas that's included in gometalinter, and it's truly my favorite in terms of automation. Gas lets you check your code in an automated fashion against several types of vulnerabilities and known insecure ... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** We need a link for that, Brian... Please. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Okay. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** And Aaron, so if I'm an engineer, and we only have so much to keep up with, but if I do want to learn at least to make sure that I'm doing the basics, and I wanna do a little bit at a time, like I don't wanna go do a project, what recommendations would you have? |
**Aaron Hnatiw:** I think one of the obvious answers to me right now is -- there's actually a product that Security Campus made just to solve that problem. I don't know if there's anything else out there right now like that, but what it is is it's called [SD Elements](https://www.securitycompass.com/sdelements/). Think... |
There's also things like -- the OWASP top 10 is probably another really good resource, because it's giving you just 10 things that you should keep in mind when you're writing web applications. There's more to the OWASP, there's more than just the OWASP top 10, but it's a really good start, and if you had those fundamen... |
**Erik St. Martin:** I think a lot of that stuff is almost from a [blue team](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_team_(computer_security)) perspective. I think what Carlisia might have been hinting at, if you wanna kind of be more aware of the [red team](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_team) angle and maybe educate y... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** \[43:59\] I also wanted to point out that there is a Go specific OWASP book at [github.com/checkmarx/go-scp](https://github.com/checkmarx/go-scp). I have not read this yet, but I have heard of several people who have and found it to be a pretty decent guide as to following OWASP standards from a Go ... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Nice. |
**Aaron Hnatiw:** Yeah, I read through the first part of that, it's actually pretty well done. It did cover a lot of good, specific Go OWASP security issues that you need to be aware of. |
**Erik St. Martin:** And there's a new book that's being worked on called [Black Hat Go](https://nostarch.com/blackhatgo). |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Oh yeah, I saw that. I bought it, actually. I just didn't wanna miss it. |
**Aaron Hnatiw:** Yeah, I've already pre-ordered mine. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Yeah, I wanted to make sure I didn't forget about it. |
**Erik St. Martin:** I didn't know that they were selling it. I've reviewed a couple of chapters for them, but I didn't realize it was for sale. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** It's in pre-order, they don't have anything to give yet. |
**Aaron Hnatiw:** I'm also doing a technical review of that as well. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Nice. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Awesome! |
**Aaron Hnatiw:** So the question that Carlisia had - if I'm getting it right - was "What's something that you can do fairly quickly to understand security a little bit better so you can develop a lot more securely?", is that correct? |
**Erik St. Martin:** Let's kind of frame it as you're an engineer and you're trying to become more red team, but you don't have a lot of time to invest in that... Like, book recommendations or something. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Alright, I'm gonna be annoying. Wait, I'm gonna be annoying. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Go ahead. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Let's define red hat... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Red team. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Or team... |
**Erik St. Martin:** Oh yeah, I think we said we would come to what those were, but I don't think we ever defined... |
**Aaron Hnatiw:** Yeah, this is a problem in InfoSec, because we use terms all the time that we understand, we use them in everyday conversation all the time, we throw out terms like red team, blue team, even purple team, assuming that people know what it means, and it's the same in any deeply technical field; that hap... |
One is the term of the offensive side of security - red team. Blue team is the defensive side of security. It comes from the military term where they would do simulations or they would do practice attacks, and the red team would be the attackers and the blue team would be the defenders. |
There's also a practice called red teaming - and this is I think what Erik referred to earlier... The idea of red teaming is doing a full simulated attack on an organization, on an environment, with the particular goal of, for example, getting to database admin, or getting HR records. The idea is you're essentially emu... |
I've done a number of these assessments myself, and what it essentially involves is let's say you have an organization that you're choosing to attack, and you use means that are technical, social engineering as well comes into play, so you're tricking people into doing things for you, or giving you information... There... |
**Erik St. Martin:** And I think to feel better about the breadth of security knowledge, those red teams are usually composed of multiple people - there's a web guy, there's a Wi-Fi guy... Usually they'll reverse-engineer depending on what's being attacked. So no one person kind of encompasses all of that knowledge. Th... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** \[48:07\] So what is the difference between red hat and red team, and blue hat and blue team, black hat, black team? I don't know if there is a black team. |
**Aaron Hnatiw:** What you're probably thinking of is white hat/black hat. |
**Erik St. Martin:** And grey hat... |
**Aaron Hnatiw:** Grey hat, yes... If we wanna talk about grey hat, if that's even a thing... \[laughs\] The difference is the idea of -- it takes the term from those old cowboy movies, where usually the good guy would be wearing a white cowboy hat, and the bad guy would be wearing a black cowboy hat. So usually when y... |
There's the term grey hat, which people can argue as a thing, but I think it's just... You know, the idea is to do things that maybe - it's almost like chaotic neutral - could be illegal or could be attacks, but you're doing it for good reasons. It's that middle zone where you're not really sure whether they're the goo... |
**Erik St. Martin:** I guess a good example of that would be you possess hacking skills and you're constantly looking for vulnerabilities in sites that you don't have permission to do so, but you're reporting to them. So you're hacking in the sense that that's not legal, you don't have permission to do that, but you ki... |
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