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As an example of that, if you're working on a song and you have a link to a file that might be on your D drive or on a different external hard drive, inside of the software everything is linked with a hard link to the absolute path. But if I send you my project, you won't have the same path, so we need to change that t... |
So all of that is done in Go, and yesterday we just announced a partnership with Pioneer DJ... Pioneer DJ as a hardware sampler, kind of the old MPC-type sampler, but you can do everything on it, it's Linux-based. What we're doing is we also have our own beat maker that's just a web version of a sequencer, so you can m... |
We're adding an export to this format. So what we're doing is from the web you can download a format that can be loaded with all the samples and all that, and all of that is done in Go. Go is really the main language we're using. I'm actually not sure, because TypeScript also has a lot of lines of code, but I think the... |
**Erik St. Martin:** You haven't had any performance or latency issues with Go? |
**Matt Aimonetti:** Latency issues, no. I'm trying to think about the problems we might have had. One time we abused the context and we were not cleaning up our Context properly and we had a memory bloat, which was an interesting problem. We're kind of new to the Context package, which was at that time outside of the s... |
We were adding - I think it was a request ID or user information on that context, and for some reason we were not cleaning that and we kept on adding more information to it, and it was just growing in memory. I think that's honestly the only problem we've had with Go. When it comes to performance, since the beginning w... |
\[12:02\] Our servers run on about 15-20 megs of RAM right now. So even though we're pushing all this data, a single API process doesn't use more than 20 megs of RAM. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Wow. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Impressive. |
**Matt Aimonetti:** And to be fair, this is all the work of the Go team, it's not really us doing too much. We're just careful to use the right APIs. And we had really good engineers at the beginning, people like Katrina Owen that really cared about refactoring and thinking through the code and architecting so we could... |
We actually don't really go back to change and maintain our code. That's something that I knew would happen, I was hoping would happen with Go. It's awesome to look at some of my code or some of the code that other people wrote at the beginning and see that it's legacy code but it works super well, and everybody can un... |
The fact that we can only focus on design and new features is really freeing us from the maintenance, and the code gardening that you might have to do with other languages, in some cases. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Yeah, so that's one of the things I think all of us love when it comes to Go - you can kind of fit the language in your head, and usually when you're looking at a codebase, it's the domain that's stomping you, and not the syntax. |
**Matt Aimonetti:** Right. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** And not having to update because of syntax changes. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Yeah... Remember when Ruby changed the way you indexed the hash? \[laughter\] |
**Carlisia Thompson:** I was also remembering when our spec changed from version two to version three, I think... There were a bunch of syntax changes for that package. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Every Ruby update was a breaker. |
**Matt Aimonetti:** Yeah. That said, we did have a small issue when we tried Go 1.8. There is a difference in the way URLs have been parsed, and if you start with a /, it adds a .. or something like that, and I think that was the only time since Go 1.0 that I had a problem. But before that, I remember things were chang... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** So you've been writing Go since way back when you had to use a makefile and include Go's makefile back in the r59 days. |
**Matt Aimonetti:** Yeah, when you had to os.r \[\\00:14:34.07\] for the errors... But I was not really doing anything production-ready yet. The first thing I did was to do the \[unintelligible 00:14:44.22\], but it was just a fun way of learning and basically I was blurring an image using the Image package, which was ... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** One thing that I'm always curious with people who run their own business and they're using Go for their software is the hiring. Do you even bother to look for Go developers? Do you make a point in hiring specifically some number of Go developers with experience? Or you truly don't care and just h... |
**Matt Aimonetti:** That's a good question. I don't think we're looking at it that way. We're not really looking for good developers. We're looking for developers who are interested in solving problems, that have expertise, and will be okay and willing to use Go. That comes from the fight that we started pretty early o... |
\[16:02\] It's kind of a mix, but overall my VP of engineering, Juan Pablo Buritica, is looking at it from a human perspective, like "Is this person a good fit for the company? Will she be challenged by what we're bringing to the table, and will they be able to develop themselves through our technical choices?" And we'... |
Recently I sent a tweet and I was asking "What is the first name you encountered when you started using Go, that really prevented you from going forward?" It was interesting to see... I got probably 200 responses and a lot of them were not understanding GOPATH, where you put your files, what do you do with it. |
The other thing was "The syntax just bothers me. It feels like it's from back in the '70s or something like that" and "I don't understand interfaces. This is not a good fit for me." We want to make sure when we hire that our values of being explicit over implicit, being a bit more verbose but easy to understand that pe... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** How do you assess that, if I may ask? Maybe I'm getting too detailed here, but at the same time I think it's interesting as an employer how you assess that a person would be comfortable with the features of the language that you're using if they haven't been exposed to it. |
**Matt Aimonetti:** It's always hard, an interview process is a really hard thing to go through for both sides. What we ask our candidates to do is to take a small test in frontend and backend. Basically, we send them the test in advance, and it's a challenge. In the case of Go, it's actually something I released as a ... |
By asking them to do that, which is not a really hard problem and it's not really about solving it, it's about letting them write some code, and us having a discussion after the fact, and talk about the small things. We talk about it, and it's usually pretty clear what people are excited about. I think it's pretty simp... |
We can see if they jump onto refactoring and abstracting everything into small methods right away and we can have a discussion about it, and you can very quickly go and understand the values of an engineer by understanding the background and what they care about. So it's not perfect, but I'm trying to be as explicit as... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** That's a good explanation, I can see that. |
**Erik St. Martin:** So the goal is really just to discuss how they went about things, not necessarily grading their ability in Go, because the assumption is that a lot of people are taking the test; this may be their first foray into using Go. |
**Matt Aimonetti:** \[19:52\] Yes, absolutely. And even for people who know how to write Go, the test is not designed to see if they can write Go, because we believe we can help them learn that; we believe everybody can learn Go. We also use Go for QA. We have QA engineers who don't really have a great engineering back... |
We use [Visual Studio Code](https://code.visualstudio.com/), for instance, with the Go plugin, and as they write, if they make a syntax error, they will see it right away. There's also code completion coming in, and all those different things. So we have experience helping developers learn Go itself. We're not really l... |
**Erik St. Martin:** That's awesome. So speaking of transitioning people into the language, you wrote an article about it a year ago, "Go is for everyone" - I wanna talk about that a little bit, but before we do that, let's take our sponsor break. |
**Break:** \[21:36\] |
**Erik St. Martin:** Alright, we are back, talking to Matt Aimonetti. Before the sponsored break I mentioned you had written an article about "Go is for everyone", and you kind of talked a little bit about how based on the creators of the language and the early adopters, how we kind of made a great sandbox for all of u... |
**Matt Aimonetti:** Yeah, absolutely, that's something that's extremely important to me, and I think also to the Go team. We heard about that in the last GopherCons, where if we want our community to grow, if we want our community to be inclusive, we need to be welcoming to everybody, and I think it starts by people wh... |
I think Go is actually amazing for people who are starting. I do believe it's an amazing language for people who are learning how to code. Last week you had my friend [Ron Evans](https://twitter.com/deadprogram) on the show, and Ron and I love to work on hardware; he's the one who really gets me always the latest toys ... |
\[23:52\] What Ron and I were talking about last week was "Hey, what we want to do is do this and export that to Go, so people can learn visually how to code Go." We believe Go is a really good language for people who are just starting, because even though a lot of people recommend languages like JavaScript, Ruby or Py... |
**Erik St. Martin:** Yeah, I'd agree dynamic languages -- we talk about how easy they are, but there's a lot of knowledge to just setup, and then runtime issues, things that should have been caught by a compiler but aren't, and they're caught at runtime and it confuses people. |
I think in my early Go days I didn't think it was a very beginner-oriented language, but same as you, we started in the makefile days and things like that. Nowadays, with the Go tools and everything, I think it's a prime candidate and I love the [Gobot](https://gobot.io/) stuff, especially. I thought Arduino made hardw... |
**Matt Aimonetti:** Right. And going back to the blog post, I think what I was trying to say is that we need to change this image of us being the experts and you need to be an expert to use Go. I think it is true that it was designed and it is used by a lot of experienced people, and they helped shape the language in a... |
But if you already know Go, you can actually take what you know - with the exception of typing, which is slightly different with interfaces, but you can take that and you can transpose it to any other languages and they would have the same features, or close to them. It's much harder to go from another language - from ... |
Focusing always on concurrency to me is a bit of a mistake. It's true that for a lot of us it's very important, without it we might not be using Go, but you make it sound like you should only use Go if you care about concurrency. And going back to the Blockly example, I was talking with [Jana](https://twitter.com/rakyl... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** I couldn't agree with that more. I wanna say that you did a really good job with that blog post on Medium entitled [Go is for everyone](https://medium.com/@mattetti/go-is-for-everyone-b4f84be04c43), and I think you're completely right. I didn't come to Go at the very beginning; when I came I thin... |
\[27:59\] I completely agree with you, you can write back-to-back programs without using concurrency. You can even ignore interfaces, you get totally functional programs without using interfaces. So you can use just the basics of Go to write completely functional programs, and then as you develop more, you can start in... |
**Matt Aimonetti:** Yeah, and to be fair, looking at the code we have in production, I think last time I checked we had like 450-500 web services, endpoints. Most of them are extremely simple, in the sense of there's not much complexity. There are a few places where we do use interfaces like the abstraction around stor... |
Talking with people within the Docker team, I know that it's been one of their pain points... They overused it in some cases and it makes it hard for them now to maintain their own code. We're trying to keep it as simple as we can. |
**Erik St. Martin:** I'm actually kind of curious... In the audio processing world, a lot of stuff is in C. Are you doing a lot of cgo, or are you writing stuff in Go? |
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