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**Adam Stacoviak:** She wrote I believe the recent VM neutrality post on Medium? Am I correct on that? |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Probably not. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I thought she wrote that... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** That was probably \[unintelligible 00:14:38.11\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I'm thinking of the diversity effort... That was...? |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah, that was Tracy. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I think it's an interesting perspective, too. I mean, that's gotta be a big change, a big shift from the way things were for Node before, to fork io... It wasn't just a code problem; it wasn't a release problem, it was also a community problem. That stems to inclusivity and diversity. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah... I think one of the big shifts too though, and with the work that Tracy is doing... We have an institution now and we can provide certain kinds of institutional support and get access to those kinds of resources that we couldn't before. Figuring out what the community needs on the one hand, an... |
Tracy works for the foundation now, she's a community manager. She's amazing. Having her come in and being able to know what we can do as a foundation and then work with the community to figure out what we can do for them has been really great. We're not just guessing anymore. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[15:55\] Right. The post I was referring to was titled "Working towards a safer, inclusive event", talking about this even here in particular, talking about the various things you've done... Again, I love those stickers that you did. For the listeners, there's a red, green, blue -- there's probably... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Well, and also don't photograph... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right, photograph... It's sort of like giving people a soft way, an unspoken way of how to approach them, right? So that you're just being respectful without even having to say a word. Who's idea was that? |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah, I mean... In communities like this you get a lot of people with social anxiety, or especially people that are going through a gender transition... There's certain things that you just don't want to have to say to every fuckin' person that comes up to you. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** If you're just not generally comfortable with that, please don't come up to me all the time if you don't know me, and things like that. So that's really good. That's something that was definitely pioneered in the community. I think that some of the community conferences have done different colored la... |
Tracy, in general, has been a pioneer in diversity/inclusivity work in community conferences. She's been involved in EmpireNode and EmpireJS and CascadiaJS. She's been doing this work for the past four or five years, and now to have her on board at the foundation, she can really inform the Linux Foundation that's runni... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It's the small things, it's the details. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah. These stickers are not that difficult to get, you just need to know about it. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Organize it, and even think about it. That's that detail that you don't think about, unless it's top of mind to care. Unless you're the Linux Foundation, without the resources... If you're just an individual person that says, "I really care about the community and I wanna produce a conference", you ... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Well, honestly... You have to remember how recent a lot of these practices are. The first NodeConf that I ran was in 2010, alongside JSConf. Chris Williams helped me out and we ran them together. That JSConf was the first conference that I'd ever seen that had a code of conduct. He had to draft one f... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Let's talk about some things that you've experienced here at the conference so far. You gave the keynote, opening things up... We've got things like the VM neutrality happening, we've got a lot of interesting new announcements, so to speak. What are some of your favorites? |
**Mikeal Rogers:** The VM neutrality for me is really, really cool, for a bunch of reasons. It's gonna be great for users... Even if you've never swapped out a VM, it's gonna be great for users. One, it's gonna really increase the competition between VM developers. I've gotten to know a lot more VM developers over the ... |
\[19:52\] There's not a lot of people that can do VM development, right? It's a relatively small pool to do that kind of work, and they're in really high demand. So all these different places that hire these developers -- what was the term that Brandon used? "Birds in gilded cages", or something? They're given a lot of... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** ...within a box. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah, exactly. So you really have to motivate the individuals, right? It's not just market needs and all this kind of business concerns; it really does come down to some of the individuals, and now that we're gonna be able to have benchmarks that show particular Node.js workloads on different VMs, yo... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. I talked to Arunesh and Gaurav, I believe is how you pronounce it... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Gaurav, yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Gaurav, yeah... I messed it up two times when I talked to him too, so... It's my thing, people are used to it; I mess people's names up, and I have a long last name, so I can unapologetically mess people's names up, because I get mine messed up... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** I get called Mikeel four times a day, so... \[laughter\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** But I was talking to him about ChakraCore and VM neutrality, and they're very excited about it. They're excited about open sourcing ChakraCore and the fun stuff that's happening there, and just the involvement inside of Microsoft. With ChakraCore, it was kind of funny the way that they described thi... |
Rewinding back a little bit, you said, "Other VM developers" - give us an idea of what VM developers are out there; what other VM developers are out there that matter? |
**Mikeal Rogers:** I mean, V8... There's a whole team of people doing V8 stuff. Actually, now there's a couple. Inside of Google, Chrome uses V8, so there's a whole team inside of Chrome, but there's also now a few people in the GCP (Google Cloud Platform) that work on V8 specifically for Node for the cloud. So you're ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** So if we were able to take new V8 releases inside of a major, they could cut that down to 3-6 weeks. So now they're really feeling that, whereas before, the V8 team that's on Chrome binds it to Chrome. They can break the native API whenever they want and they just have to fix the binding layer in Chr... |
That's another great thing that comes for all of our users. You're gonna be able to get new versions of the VM inside of major releases, you're gonna be able to upgrade the major releases without breaking all of your native add-ons, which happens now... These are all amazing, awesome things for our users, even if they ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So this wasn't possible before? What are the actual efforts behind making this possible? |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Man, there's a lot... So there's an effort to create a stable API inside of Node... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Nappy... Is that right? Node API? |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah... Basically, that's what Node binds to, and if you have a VM, you can expose that API and we will bind to it. That allows native add-on developers to just bind to that API and work with every VM and new versions of VMs, without having to go through a whole recompile because the API changed, or ... |
\[24:00\] This is something that I don't think would have been possible without the Node Foundation. We got all these different stakeholders to the table and committed to supporting that API long-term. If we still had a relationship with V8 where they were working on a VM and threw it over a wall and then we bound to i... |
Being able to bring all these different people to the table to come up with this API that we can all commit to supporting long-term has been really valuable. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** This is all building upon the governance model that wasn't there the last time we talked on the Changelog, back to that episode, The Rise of io.js... I mean, I see a lot of interesting effort happening here that is just unquantifiable. You can rewind it and play it back a little bit, but there's jus... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** No historical purpose... So Ryan Dahl built Node.js in his own time... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And was employed by them. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** No, he wasn't employed by them yet. He built it, he... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, that's what I mean... He built it and then was employed by them. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** He debuted at JSConf EU and then they hired him. They also acquired the trademark. He was working there for a while... Also, during this time when Joyent was stewarding it, they were also putting in a lot of effort into marketing it, particularly to cloud use cases and to enterprises, right? And it's... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. Let's pause it for a second... So at that point, in terms of governance models, it was a BDFL, right? |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So it's transitioned from that... Which is now sort of frowned upon, from what I understand. I mean, you have opinions, share as much as you like, but the BDFL model has its pros and cons. |
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