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**Nick Nisi:** \[laughs\] |
**Luis Villa:** It can be potentially so empowering for programmers, hopefully in the long-term future not just VS Code users, not just GitHub users. Hopefully, there's a brave new future where access to that is democratized... We'll see. It's gonna be interesting. Definitely not a problem that's going away, for sure. |
**Nick Nisi:** Yeah. Part of that democratization should be to release a Vim extension so I don't have to use VS Code to try it out. |
**Luis Villa:** \[laughs\] Yeah, I was gonna say Emacs, but that's another conversation, for another chat. |
**Nick Nisi:** We'll have this battle offline. \[laughs\] Luis, thank you so much for coming on and talking to us, and giving us these amazing insights. |
**Christopher Hiller:** Yes, thank you very much. |
**Luis Villa:** Yeah, my pleasure. Happy to talk legal geekery with you guys anytime. |
• The web as a platform, its importance, and evolution |
• The benefits of the open web, including its permissionless aspect and ability to connect people and ideas |
• The role of hyperlinks and protocols in enabling the web's connectivity |
• Comparison of the web to other platforms, including mobile apps, and the limitations of native apps |
• Discussion of user experience and the need for smooth transitions between experiences |
• The potential for Progressive Web Apps (PWAs) to improve user experience |
• Mobile web experience challenges and opportunities |
• Web APIs and their potential for improving mobile web experiences |
• Catching up with native apps in terms of performance and capabilities |
• Progressive web apps and projects like FUGU from Chrome |
• Low-hanging fruit in mobile web development, such as leveraging existing APIs and optimizing for mobile |
• Performance issues on mobile websites, including hover styles delay and taps on iOS |
• Tooling and knowledge as externalities in web development |
• State of the art in web development in 2020, including React and Next.js |
• Challenges of React, particularly for beginners, due to its non-intuitive concepts and rules. |
• Performance issues with single-page applications and monolithic bundles, and the need for server-rendering and pre-rendering. |
• Trends in modern web development, including a return to server-side rendering and the use of JAMstack, serverless infrastructure, and hybrid frameworks. |
• The importance of tooling and abstraction in reducing complexity for developers. |
• The concept of JAMstack and its principles of pre-rendering content and using CDNs. |
• The emergence of new tooling and frameworks, such as Next.js, Nuxt, and SvelteKit, which facilitate hybrid development and provide performance benefits. |
• The importance of considering dynamic rendering of pages in addition to static rendering |
• The limitations of static rendering for large sites and mobile devices |
• The advantage of the web in rendering pages "just in time" without requiring a massive application download |
• The concept of combining JAMstack with server rendering for improved performance and scalability |
• The role of Web Vitals metrics in understanding and measuring performance beyond just response time and rendering speed |
• The challenges of measuring performance with multiple elements and interactions on a page |
• The importance of Cumulative Layout Shift, Largest Contentful Paint, and First Input Delay metrics in Web Vitals |
• Web Vitals and Google's ranking of websites based on performance |
• First Input Delay, a measure of how quickly a website responds to user input |
• The impact of JavaScript loading on website performance |
• AMP (Accelerated Mobile Pages) and its influence on web performance |
• The importance of stable layouts and Cumulative Layout Shift |
• Web Vitals finalized and to be used by Google's algorithm |
• The advantages of the web over native apps in terms of versioning and distribution |
• The power of progressive web apps and their ability to adapt to different devices and constraints |
• Temporal API and native date-time support on the web platform |
• Benefits of leveraging existing browser features and caching |
• Large players dominating the web, and the importance of decentralization |
• Focus on customer needs and user experience |
• Balance between using tools like TypeScript and over-engineering |
• Importance of leveraging open source technologies and not reinventing the wheel |
• The limitations and challenges of TypeScript |
• The potential drawbacks of reinventing the wheel |
• The importance of pragmatism in adopting new technologies |
• The potential of AssemblyScript and WebAssembly |
• The benefits of inventing on principle, rather than for its own sake |
• The Web Vitals and their potential impact on user experience |
• The need for balance between innovation and practicality |
**Jerod Santo:** I am joined today by two friends, Guillermo Rauch of Vercel, and Amal Hussein of JS Party (that's the way I'll introduce you), a regular on JS Party; you may know her voice if you're a listener to that... Welcome to the show, friends. |
**Amal Hussein:** Hi. You may call me Lady Amal of JS Party, good sir... |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay, Lady Amal. \[laughter\] And Guillermo, thanks for joining us on the Changelog. |
**Guillermo Rauch:** Thanks for having me. |
**Jerod Santo:** We are excited today to talk about the web, a beloved platform by all three of us here on this call... And we're gonna talk about where the web has been, why it's important, and maybe even cast forward and talk about where we think it is going. Guillermo, your reputation in my mind is a person who's al... |
**Guillermo Rauch:** \[03:59\] Yeah, it's been, and the web has continued to evolve, and things have gotten better every day; I'm happy to talk about some of the trends that we're seeing and what the journey has been, but also where it's leading. |
**Jerod Santo:** Absolutely. Well, we're gonna talk about what's been going on recently in the web, but first we wanna talk about the web as a platform itself, because as I mentioned, we're all here advocates for/fans of the web. In fact, Amal has a podcast called The Web Platform Show... Is that what it's called? |
**Amal Hussein:** Podcast. The Web Platform Podcast. |
**Jerod Santo:** The Web Platform Podcast. |
**Amal Hussein:** We keep it pedantic and simple. |
**Jerod Santo:** There you go. Changelog trivia - we were once TheChangelogShow.com, so things change, but the web is also changing... Amal, in your opinion, what's so special about it? Why is it different, why is it better than other platforms out there? Why do you dedicate your life and your work and your resources t... |
**Amal Hussein:** Yeah, I think only need to have a conversation with me for about five minutes before you realize that I love the web; I think the web is the best. In fact, my husband is actually an engineer that works on mobile platforms, and our house is like Mr. and Mrs. Smith... |
**Jerod Santo:** A flame war? |
**Amal Hussein:** Yeah... \[laughter\] Mr. and Mrs. Smith of team web vs. team mobile. He's always making fun of me, and he's like "Well, you know, at least I have a predictable roadmap." And I'm like "Well, you know, at least I have choice and freedom." \[laughter\] Freedom! But anyways. So the web is quite literally,... |
It's the open web, and the reach of the web is like no other, and it's very important that we keep the web open and accessible. During the pandemic, the web has shown that it's even more important; it's interesting to see companies starting to reinvest in their testing infrastructure for the web, and taking their web p... |
**Jerod Santo:** There you go. That resonates with me, especially the permissionless aspect of it. Guillermo, what's your take on -- I mean, you've been doing web dev for so long now. |
**Guillermo Rauch:** Yeah, I'll add to that that -- so the web has this native way of connecting ideas through hyperlinks, that I consider to be one of the most powerful inventions ever. I'll echo what Amal said with regards to it's a huge accomplishment of agreement between lots of different parties that'll have this ... |
When we launched Vercel, the main idea at the beginning was this idea of deploying very quickly, getting this deploy preview, and this URL to share your product with your teammates and with anybody that you wanna collaborate with. So all about this idea of "Let's expose a hyperlink quickly, earlier in the process." And... |
\[08:17\] So this idea of the web is an open platform that is connected so easily between strangers and organizations... And what you talked about, which is that I don't need permission to publish this new way of sharing calendars or sharing documents, or sharing product previews. It's all built-in. And I think no othe... |
I know that links work to some extent with native apps, but it's always a huge mess. I don't know if I'm ending up on the web, if I'm ending up in a native app, and there's three or four interstitial modals that tell me download, or pay, or Face ID... |
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