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**Ryan Dahl:** Yeah, it's in open beta right now. I would consider it a technology demo at this point. We're working on cool features that will be announced soon. Yeah, we will have a general availability announcement. We don't have a deadline for that yet, but we hope that it will be later this year. We're thinking in... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Production-ready then? Production-stable? |
**Ryan Dahl:** I would not, no, consider it that. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] He said usable, he didn't say production steady... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Okay... |
**Jerod Santo:** You can use it. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[unintelligible 01:07:46.20\] |
**Ryan Dahl:** Yeah. We have no SLA. It's something that -- you know, if you're interested, you should try it out... But I would not use it for production problems at this point. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[01:07:58.25\] So if there's a future then for Deno, that place of competition might be with Deploy. Because if you claim here now that you intend for Deno Deploy to be the best way to run a Deno application, then that might be the way. If Deno wins like Node has won... And we haven't asked you if ... |
**Ryan Dahl:** I guess... I'm not sure what you're asking, actually. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, to deploy, similar maybe for -- you know, there's some examples from WordPress, for example. There's particular hosts that are amazing at hosting WordPress. If Deno wins and becomes very popular, to gain market share, to have a commercially viable application, or a company, or a SaaS product, ... |
**Ryan Dahl:** Yeah, I mean, I would encourage anybody who wants to -- |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Compete. To compete. |
**Ryan Dahl:** ...also be running a Deno service, yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Sure. |
**Jerod Santo:** Ultimately, that's good for the ecosystem anyways... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** ...and Deno the company. Probably a pretty good competitor when it comes to running Deno in these different contexts, right? So I would assume you're welcoming competition. |
**Ryan Dahl:** Yeah. And by the way, we're investing a lot in this Rust/JavaScript infrastructure... So when you go out and see products that are serverless products that execute JavaScript and don't look like extremely Nody... So a lot of this stuff is actually Node, but kind of newer server-side JavaScript APIs - yea... |
**Jerod Santo:** Taking it back to Deno Deploy for a second, just thinking through it as an end user... And it seems like a lot of these serverless solutions don't have the database story; when it comes to my backend, if I'm going to run all my code, my dynamic website at the edge, but my database isn't collocated with... |
**Ryan Dahl:** Not yet. You certainly see Cloudflare going in this direction with Durable Objects. Right now, Deno Deploy is this -- I would consider it kind of the minimum viable product, which is that it responds to requests. |
**Jerod Santo:** There you go. |
**Ryan Dahl:** So you can send back a response... You can make outbound requests. Let's say you have a Firebase database hosted by Google somewhere... You can make outbound requests to that data store for any persistent needs. We've basically pushed the persistence problem out of our problem space at the moment. And yo... |
**Jerod Santo:** Cool. So what happened with Node the last time around? I've referred to it earlier with the Mikeal Rogers reference, was that there was a lot of opportunity in the early days, and a lot of people jumped in and became influential, impactful JavaScript people because they helped out with the early days o... |
\[01:12:13.11\] But the question is, if I'm a developer, I'm an open source person and I'm thinking "You know what - I'm gonna take a bet on Deno as an ecosystem, and I would love to be impactful, I would love to help out in ways that are big", what's the best way, what's the easiest stuff, low-hanging fruit, the real ... |
**Ryan Dahl:** I think the standard library is -- we haven't talked about this that much, but in Node there is no standard library. There is a lot of utilities built into Node itself. But part of the Node dependency problem is that when you just want a small little utility, when you wanna Leftpad your string, or whatev... |
We have a style guide, we have tests... It's something that affects the entire community, so... People contribute modules to the standard library. And obviously, people should ask first before randomly contributing things. It would be unfortunate if you did a bunch of work and then we'd have to reject it, for some reas... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. Where do you ask? |
**Ryan Dahl:** This is a way to be very useful in the Deno community. |
**Jerod Santo:** Where do those questions go? Is it issues on repos, is it mailing lists? |
**Ryan Dahl:** Yeah, there's a deno\_std repo on GitHub... Just open an issue and discuss it. Generally, we're very open to adding new libraries in the STD. |
**Jerod Santo:** Is the STD in Rust also, or is that in TypeScript, or in JavaScript? |
**Ryan Dahl:** That's in TypeScript, yeah. These utilities built on top of Deno. Obviously, if people know Rust and want to get into the internal system of Deno, there's a whole world there to explore. But that's a bit deeper. |
We have a Discord, it's very active, and there's a lot of channels where people are discussing new ideas, so I would encourage anybody to jump on there and hit me up with any ideas. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Are there any particular applications that are currently leveraging Deno that you wanna call out, or that you've been impressed by? |
**Ryan Dahl:** No, actually... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[laughs\] Still early days? |
**Ryan Dahl:** Still early days. I mean, people are playing around with stuff... And generally, this is a very similar system to Node. So if you make a chat server, I wouldn't call that out as particularly interesting necessarily. I think the interesting bits are around the tooling and how we can make these workflows m... |
**Jerod Santo:** Let's say I'm sitting on an existing Node app which is medium-sized, and it's running the business, but it's not like 50 million lines of code. What would a port take, or what would it look like? Relatively straightforward, or are there serious dragons there? |
**Ryan Dahl:** If it's already using ES modules in TypeScript, it should be relatively straightforward. If it's common JS and kind of old-school style Node stuff, if would be a bigger undertaking. |
**Jerod Santo:** Thanks for sharing so much, man. This has been very enlightening. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** I really enjoyed it, and I appreciate you coming on. |
**Ryan Dahl:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I appreciate you making time in your schedule to finally do the podcast with us after so many years. I guess we've never really invited you either, but... Sorry. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] No wonder you never came on. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You've been hard to get a hold of for the last 11 years... But I'm glad you made time to show up here at the Changelog, we appreciate that... So thank you, Ryan. |
**Ryan Dahl:** Yeah, thanks for having me. |
• Introduction to the guest, Ryan Dahl, creator of Node.js and Dino |
• Discussion of Ryan Dahl's past and his massive success with Node.js |
• Creation and features of Dino, a simple, modern, and secure runtime for JavaScript and TypeScript |
• Ryan Dahl's regrets about Node.js, including its security system, build system, and use of promises |
• The backstory of Ryan Dahl's 2018 JSConf EU talk, where he introduced Dino and discussed his regrets about Node.js |
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