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**Eran Yahav:** Yeah, it's a really great question. I don't know. I think one thing to keep in mind is basically kind of the datasets, what would you train on? If you could train AI models on your code, what would it be? How do I keep at least part of the code ready to be served as training data? Because what we're see... |
So there is a lot of subtlety in what you'd like to train on. Moving forward, I think that's going to be a really interesting space, on how people do the curation of what they would like to train on. We're already seeing early signs of that happening, like people asking us, "Can I train? Can I exclude this guy, because... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Basically, how do you tend to your garden of code in order to train the future code you want to write? |
**Eran Yahav:** Yeah, exactly. Exactly that. Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** How do you tend to your current garden of code. |
**Eran Yahav:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. Interesting. |
**Eran Yahav:** Which, in a sense, you're supposed to do anyway when you're doing like reducing technical debt, but nobody actually has time to do that. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** One more reason to do so, right? One more reason. |
**Eran Yahav:** Yeah, one more reason to do so. Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, Eran, thank you for sharing that sentiment. AI-assisted development is here to stay. You shared a brief idea on how you can begin to prepare... But Eran, thank you so much for sharing this history of the project and the company, and this future that's imminent, basically. Thank you. |
**Eran Yahav:** Thank you very much, guys. Thanks for having me. |
**Jerod Santo:** Lots of fun. |
• Large-scale cybersecurity breaches in the US, including the OPM breach and the Equifax breach, have compromised sensitive data of millions of Americans. |
• The number of data breaches has increased significantly over the past 15 years, with over 9,000 breaches occurring since 2007. |
• The hacking of America is not a singular event, but rather a series of breaches that have compromised government and consumer data. |
• Software vulnerabilities and malware are just two of the root causes of breaches, with others including phishing, unencrypted data, inadvertent employee mistakes, and third-party compromise and abuse. |
• The rise of mega-breaches, such as the Equifax and JP Morgan Chase breaches, has highlighted the complexity and severity of the cybersecurity threat landscape. |
• Phishing has evolved over time, from initial email scams to sophisticated spear phishing attacks that target specific individuals and organizations. |
• Third-party compromise and abuse has become a significant issue in recent years, with attackers exploiting vulnerabilities in third-party systems to breach major organizations. |
• Inadvertent employee mistakes, such as misconfiguring cloud services, can also lead to significant breaches. |
• Root causes of breaches remain stable over 7 years, with 6 primary causes being responsible for the majority of incidents |
• Phishing attacks have become more sophisticated, with attackers using more convincing tactics to trick victims |
• The Podesta email breach in 2016 is cited as an example of a highly sophisticated phishing attack that was successful despite 2-factor authentication |
• The limitations of 2-factor authentication, including its vulnerability to SIM-swapping attacks and the ability of attackers to set up impostor phishing sites |
• The existence of more secure 2-factor authentication methods, such as authenticator apps with rotating keys that limit the time available for attackers to use the code. |
• Security keys as a non-phishable form of defense against phishing |
• Phishing and its impact on security |
• Common technical root causes of attacks and breaches (phishing, malware, software vulnerabilities, unencrypted data, third-party compromise/abuse, and inadvertent employee mistakes) |
• Analysis of the SolarWinds hack and its comparison to the Pearl Harbor attack |
• The challenges and importance of forensic analysis in understanding and attributing breaches |
• The role of mistakes made by attackers in facilitating forensic analysis and attribution |
• Discussion of the Capital One breach and the motivations of the attacker, Erratic |
• Analysis of the technical details of the Capital One breach, including the server-side request forgery vulnerability |
• Comparison to the Equifax breach and the Apache Struts vulnerability used to gain access |
• Discussion of the attacker's technical capabilities and potential motivations |
• Mention of the FBI's approach to catching criminals and the importance of waiting for a mistake to be made |
• Reference to the attacker's tweets and public statements during the breach |
• Third-party vulnerabilities can be a significant point of entry for attacks, but are not the only factor in breaches. |
• First-party vulnerabilities can also be a contributing factor in breaches, as seen in the Facebook 2018 breach. |
• Breaches have become more sophisticated over time, with attackers using multiple vulnerabilities and techniques to gain access to systems. |
• Simple attacks and single-vulnerability breaches still exist, but are now combined with more complex attacks by sophisticated attackers. |
• Effective security habits, such as being proactive, prepared, and paranoid, can help organizations prevent breaches. |
• Building and designing security into products and systems is crucial, rather than trying to add it afterwards. |
• Building security into software from the beginning is crucial, and automation is essential for finding vulnerabilities. |
• Measuring security quantitatively and qualitatively is key, and it's not just about finding vulnerabilities, but also about understanding the scope of the issue. |
• Continuous improvement is necessary, and small changes over time can have a significant impact. |
• Traditional security testing models are becoming outdated, and a more agile, continuous monitoring approach is needed. |
• Bridging the gap between security teams and development teams is essential, and having security knowledge integrated into the development process can be beneficial. |
• A shift in mentality is needed, from a "Department of No" approach to a "Yes, and how" approach, where security teams work to enable and support the business. |
• The goal of an application security team is to enable developers to write secure code, rather than serving as an approval gate. |
• Collaboration between developers, security teams, and operations teams is key to achieving secure software. |
• Empathy and respect between teams are essential for effective collaboration. |
• Accountability is crucial, with developers responsible for the security of their code and application security teams providing support. |
• Third-party compromise is a significant risk, particularly in mergers and acquisitions, and can lead to vulnerabilities in the combined codebase. |
• Effective monitoring and validation processes are necessary to prevent and mitigate third-party compromise. |
• Importance of penetration testing and threat hunting in acquiring a company |
• Accountability in cybersecurity, including due diligence and consequences for CEOs and CSOs |
• Changes in accountability for CEOs and CSOs in the wake of major breaches |
• Automated patching and technical verification as a means to prevent future breaches |
• Need for broader education and awareness in cybersecurity for non-security professionals |
• Role of books in raising awareness and promoting change in cybersecurity practices |
**Jerod Santo:** So we are here and excited to talk about some big security breaches, cybersecurity breaches, with Neil Daswani. Neil, thanks for coming on the Changelog. |
**Neil Daswani:** Thanks for having me. Thrilled to be here. |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, I thought I would steal a couple of facts from your book to set the stage here; a couple of things you say right in the beginning... You say "In a series of breaches, key background data of over 20 million U.S. government employees and a large fraction of the U.S. consumer financial and social me... |
**Neil Daswani:** Yeah, that's right. If we go back to 2015, for instance, the government's Office of Personnel Management was breached, and that's the breach in which the 20 million government employee identities were stolen... But that's just one of many breaches. If you go a little bit earlier in that paragraph, I t... |
**Jerod Santo:** Let's rewind back to 2007. You were working at Google, and you co-wrote this book, "Foundations of Security", which was focused on web app vulnerabilities... And back then you saw that security on the internet was bad and going to get worse, but then you say you wouldn't have been able to predict how b... |
**Neil Daswani:** So back in 2007, back when I was an engineer at Google, the main concern that myself and my co-author at the time, Christoph Kern had was that software vulnerabilities could be used to conduct cross-site scripting attacks, SQL injection attacks, and plague a whole bunch of online properties. |
\[04:10\] At the time, MySpace had gotten taken down for a few hours, because someone wrote a worm that spread through the social network so fast... It affected millions of profiles, and they had to take the service down in order to deal with it. |
Another thing that was happening back at that time is worms. Worms like Code Red, and Nimda, and SQL Slammer, typically ran by maybe one author, an amateur, caused a lot of disruption on the internet. So when I joined Google, Christoph (my co-author) was one of the folks that influenced me to join the company. After I ... |
I think what we've seen now, fast-forwarding to 2013 and afterwards, given the number of mega-breaches that have taken place, it's pretty clear that software vulnerabilities and malware are only two of the root causes that have led to these breaches. If we look at other major causes of breaches, things like phishing, u... |
**Jerod Santo:** So how do we get here? Was it just focusing on too little? Because like you said, there are six different causes/vectors that may be the focus of the infosec community, and those in software are trying to solve or route around these particular two things, but actually it was a much bigger surface area ... |
**Neil Daswani:** So the way that we got here was not a -- it was a gradual sort of thing. When we look at things like phishing, for instance... Phishing was an issue prior to 2007. The word "phishing" was first coined in a newsgroup called AOHell (America Online Hell)... |
**Jerod Santo:** Nice... |
**Neil Daswani:** ...in, I believe, the late '90s. And phishing was always a concern because of the fact that the initial protocols that the internet was built on - the email protocol, for instance, SMTP (Simple Mail Transfer Protocol) would allow anybody on the ARPANET (the predecessor to the internet) to send an emai... |
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