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[1374.28 --> 1380.22] And he responds with trite one sentence responses that are sort of demeaning. |
[1380.22 --> 1380.70] Yeah. |
[1380.98 --> 1388.54] One example of that is that Nick's OS offered, we will set a config flag in the OS that reads, |
[1389.28 --> 1396.98] accept that this package is not supported by upstream developers and I will go to Nick's packages to report any issues equals true. |
[1397.98 --> 1400.20] And Frank was still unhappy with that. |
[1400.20 --> 1410.12] So here's what I think here, Alex, because the core argument that Frank had was he was concerned this would lead to user support requests on him. |
[1410.42 --> 1416.00] He was concerned that people would install Home Assistant and all of these packages and dependencies on Nick's OS, |
[1416.52 --> 1421.24] run into some problem with their setup at some point that led them to the Ambi library. |
[1421.24 --> 1434.46] And then from there, they would dissect the source code and the original author suss out his contact information or his GitHub and then file a issue support request or email with Frank after that process. |
[1434.76 --> 1449.20] Now, I've been in this for quite a while and I could tell you, I'd bet you a good steak dinner that the totality of people that would do that over, say, like a five to 10 year period would probably be a handful, you know, under a dozen. |
[1449.20 --> 1454.78] Because let's be honest, Nick's OS is an extremely niche Linux distribution. |
[1455.78 --> 1458.28] Then the ability to ascertain who the developer is. |
[1458.36 --> 1465.42] Well, actually, the ability to ascertain what particular library is even causing you a problem is a niche skill set. |
[1465.54 --> 1471.86] The ability to ascertain which developer created that one library that's creating you a problem is also a niche skill set. |
[1471.94 --> 1472.58] So you get my point? |
[1472.66 --> 1478.40] Like it's his main concern was that he'd be getting support requests when in reality that just doesn't seem likely. |
[1478.40 --> 1481.38] That's not going to that's not going to result from this inclusion in Nick's OS. |
[1481.78 --> 1489.80] Which raises the question, you know, if you don't want your stuff to be used and packaged by other people like this. |
[1489.86 --> 1494.94] I mean, the whole point of open source licensing is that you're giving your code away. |
[1495.10 --> 1497.32] You still retain intellectual property over it. |
[1497.40 --> 1499.40] You still, air quotes, own it. |
[1499.40 --> 1503.10] But you don't own what people can do with it. |
[1503.60 --> 1511.24] And for me, that raises the question, why is he even publishing it as open source code in the first place if he doesn't want people to do this? |
[1511.50 --> 1512.88] Yeah, that's that's a good question. |
[1513.02 --> 1520.18] It's a tricky one, because if you think about the way in which Home Assistant itself is licensed, that uses the permissive Apache 2 license. |
[1520.18 --> 1525.22] And that doesn't really impose very many restrictions at all on derivative works. |
[1525.44 --> 1536.58] If Home Assistant then includes any GPL licensed stuff, at that point, you then have a whole other can of worms about what would what would happen next. |
[1536.58 --> 1546.94] And I think for me, I get a little concerned when I see how Paulus, who was on the show a couple of episodes ago, jumped into that Home Assistant thread. |
[1547.14 --> 1549.30] All of these links will be in the show notes, by the way. |
[1550.50 --> 1556.86] And basically just locked the thread, closed it and then delisted it, like sweeping the whole thing under the rug. |
[1556.86 --> 1566.62] I think all of this is that behavior of shutting down the forms and not really wanting to engage in a conversation about it, trying to reduce the amount of heat that Frank is taking. |
[1567.10 --> 1576.34] And Frank's response and being so concerned about additional support requests that he would go to those, you know, he would essentially get that argument in that thread. |
[1576.34 --> 1593.68] I think all of these are symptomatic of what you and I have worried about the project for a long time, and that is that the core developers who are some of, as you mentioned, the most important developers to the project are beyond what we would consider burned out and that they are on their very ... |
[1593.68 --> 1604.04] And every time we see a public interaction, we witness what appears to be an individual who is so far at the end of his rope, he has no time to deal with people talking back to him. |
[1604.36 --> 1607.50] He has no time for the possibility that he might get additional emails. |
[1607.72 --> 1611.76] The idea that he might get more emails is upsetting to him. |
[1611.76 --> 1616.28] And then you see Paul is going around and cleaning up the conversation in the form. |
[1616.38 --> 1626.34] So that way it doesn't inundate Frank with all of this, you know, peanut gallery chatter about it and just to try to get away from the issue as quickly as possible because he doesn't have time to deal with it. |
[1626.40 --> 1627.28] He wants to stay focused. |
[1627.64 --> 1637.10] And I don't really know what the solution here is, because that just seems to be even if it's not the case, even if this is just Chris's wild opinion, it's what the public sees every time. |
[1637.10 --> 1641.70] And the issue here is this made it out beyond just the home assistant community this time. |
[1641.76 --> 1645.18] It made it onto Hacker News and you had a very robust conversation over there. |
[1645.42 --> 1647.14] It was fired up on the forums like Alex said. |
[1647.16 --> 1647.74] It made it to Reddit. |
[1648.38 --> 1651.18] It was in our team Slack where we were discussing this back and forth. |
[1651.38 --> 1654.18] Like it made its rounds around the Internet. |
[1654.60 --> 1656.18] And it's not a good look. |
[1656.24 --> 1659.74] It looks like everybody's hot take is, well, they don't know what open source is. |
[1659.80 --> 1661.66] They don't understand how Linux distributions work. |
[1661.72 --> 1663.14] Don't they know it's MIT licensed? |
[1663.92 --> 1665.64] And it's clear they're smart guys. |
[1665.64 --> 1667.20] They know all of those things. |
[1667.52 --> 1669.20] There's something else going on here. |
[1669.60 --> 1671.92] And we're just getting little glimpses of it. |
[1672.24 --> 1673.40] See, I think you have a different take. |
[1673.52 --> 1680.92] You worry that maybe one day these guys, because they don't appreciate and understand open source, are going to take their cake and their ball and they're going to go home and eat it. |
[1681.00 --> 1681.58] Does that make sense? |
[1681.60 --> 1683.18] And they're going to convert it to a commercial product. |
[1683.24 --> 1685.18] And we're going to be sitting here going, well, wait, now what do we do? |
[1685.48 --> 1690.92] My concern is more the development team just totally burns out and leaves the project and it bans and says, well, it's open source. |
[1691.30 --> 1692.02] You take care of it. |
[1692.02 --> 1695.58] I think both scenarios are probably equally likely at this point. |
[1695.58 --> 1701.48] Although perhaps going closed source, I mean, we've got precedent for that with MB. |
[1701.70 --> 1703.70] We've seen other projects do that before. |
[1704.38 --> 1713.52] I do think Home Assistant is slightly less likely to do that because just because of the sheer volume of open source contributions over the years. |
[1713.52 --> 1724.86] I think if there was any talk of Home Assistant itself going closed source, that would get forked in a heartbeat and, you know, Home Lover would come out of it instead or whatever you want to call it. |
[1725.38 --> 1730.68] And then Home Assistant just wouldn't be able to keep up with changes without that open source support. |
[1730.68 --> 1744.50] So I don't think it's hugely likely, but I feel like, you know, all the moves and it's a difficult one because we talked to Paulus recently and he paints a very rosy picture about the future of the product. |
[1744.74 --> 1746.14] And it's a sustainable one as well. |
[1746.24 --> 1758.30] You know, Frank and Paulus and these guys are getting paid through Nebukasa, which oftentimes is a reason that these developers burn out is because it's a side hustle or a side project. |
[1758.30 --> 1761.10] For these guys, it is their job, you know. |
[1761.30 --> 1772.08] So I do think we've come to expect a certain level of access to open source developers like this because of the way we conduct all of our business in public. |
[1772.08 --> 1784.18] I'm sure if we went and looked in some internal, you know, company email thread at name Big Corp here, we'd see similar levels of emotional attachment and petulance at times. |
[1784.78 --> 1788.00] But the difference here is that it's out for the world to see. |
[1788.30 --> 1791.88] And there is a bit of a spirit of cooperation in the open source community. |
[1792.02 --> 1795.28] A lot of home assistant is built on top of a lot of other great code. |
[1795.46 --> 1803.06] And so when somebody comes along and says, yeah, but don't use our open source code in your project, it doesn't really sit well and it gets noticed. |
[1803.30 --> 1807.26] And I think to your point that, you know, they are full-time employees of Nebukasa. |
[1807.82 --> 1810.68] Money is only part of the solution. |
[1810.68 --> 1817.74] It is likely that Frank is such a talented developer and what he works on is so crucial to home assistant. |
[1818.32 --> 1824.84] I bet you there is just an unrelenting, never-ending amount of work for him to take on. |
[1825.36 --> 1828.36] And, you know, he did some work with the new ESP home release that we'll talk about. |
[1828.60 --> 1829.18] He did, yeah. |
[1829.18 --> 1832.60] Yeah, he's involved in more things than ever now. |
[1833.02 --> 1836.94] And I think there is only so much that maybe one developer can take on. |
[1837.36 --> 1840.78] And when you're talented like he is, you're going to get worked. |
[1841.46 --> 1842.40] And I don't know. |
[1842.40 --> 1861.78] If you've ever read The Phoenix Project, which is a book about DevOps, it talks about this concept of a halo engineer who people are afraid of upsetting or touching systems because this one guy knows all of the different incantations you have to say to make something work. |
[1862.06 --> 1868.56] I kind of feel like Frank's manoeuvring into that position and the home assistant project's very dependent on him because of his skills. |
[1868.56 --> 1876.48] It's a difficult problem to solve and it is not unique to home assistant that you end up with this reliance on one talented guy. |
[1876.62 --> 1878.84] But I don't know what the solution is either. |
[1879.06 --> 1881.74] Do we all stop collectively emailing Frank all at once? |
[1882.36 --> 1882.60] Maybe? |
[1883.08 --> 1884.46] Yeah, that might help. |
[1886.70 --> 1889.40] Well, why don't we just really quickly talk about ESP home? |
[1889.86 --> 1893.04] It's now part of home assistant, so they're kind of related. |
[1893.04 --> 1900.54] And for those of you who don't recall, there was those little ESP, what is it, 8266 and the ESP32? |
[1901.06 --> 1901.88] Yeah, there's a couple of them. |
[1902.46 --> 1903.32] They're made out of China. |
[1903.48 --> 1910.22] There's a company there called Espressif and they make ESP8266 and ESP32 devices. |
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