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**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah, that's the first thing. But starting with a monolith as an MVP does sound like a sensible approach, especially if you're trying to prove a concept. And then based on that, it depends on how things go. You may decide to break it down into microservices. Where would you run this application or set... |
**Katie Gamanji:** I actually have many people asking me that... Some of my friends - they are actually developing products, startups, very small startup companies, and they're asking "Is Kubernetes the right thing for me at the moment?" And usually, what I answer in that circumstance is gonna be probably no, because i... |
So in that circumstance, I would usually maybe suggest a cloud provider. Again, you have free tiers you can use from different cloud providers... So I would usually recommend that. However, if you are in a circumstance where you have enough engineering resources and you have enough expertise of maybe understanding how ... |
I've been mentioning the scheduling capabilities... For example, you have -- maybe I should introduce Kubernetes very briefly. So Kubernetes is pretty much an orchestration platform for containers that is run across a distributed amount of machines. So you can have different instances, and all of them are gonna be put ... |
So based on the requirements you have for your application - for example you can choose "This application should have this amount of memory and CPU at all time. This is the very minimum of the resources I need for it to be up and running." The scheduler would take these requirements into account and place it on a speci... |
Now, the thing is if that particular instance goes down, usually, if you'd be working in a data center, you will need to migrate the application, or you will pretty much need to trigger your load balancer to point to a different data center. Now, with Kubernetes all of this is automated. So Kubernetes will be managing ... |
\[35:56\] We have scalability, we have resources which will allow you to scale an application based on different events. For example, if you reach the amount of -- maybe the maximum of the CPU or memory your application can consume, you'll be able to scale forever. But now you can actually scale on external events as w... |
So these are just some of the functionalities. I didn't even talk about the Ingress and how you actually manage the reachability to your application, how you have this abstraction across a collection of pods of services, and how can you have granular control of how your application serves different HTTP endpoints with ... |
So in that case, if you have a team that would like to run an application within a production environment, would like to kind of take advantage of all of these capabilities that Kubernetes provides, and they have enough resources within an organization to run it, then probably the answer is "Yes, do look into Kubernete... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I would definitely agree with everything you said from a practical perspective, because even though Changelog is a monolith, the reason why we chose Kubernetes is that it takes care of certain details in a very elegant way. We can declare everything from certificates, to DNS, to load balancers, to eve... |
So what I'm saying is it scales really well, so you can do so many things that would be very difficult to do in a different platform, and it just takes a lot of resource and a lot of knowledge and a lot of just time. Now, the good thing is once you learn it, it applies to anywhere Kubernetes runs, because it's literall... |
So you're right, you can have a single app and still get a lot of mileage out of it if you want to or can afford to invest that time. Otherwise, maybe a platform-as-a-service. Maybe that's going to be all you need. Maybe something like Heroku, or Cloud Foundry, or I think Render - that's like the new version of Heroku.... |
Now, you wouldn't start with microservices to begin with, would you? |
**Katie Gamanji:** Probably... It depends on the scale. But if I have a running MVP that's a monolith, I'm happy to move it forward and create this automated pipeline for it, if needed. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** \[40:15\] How would you get updates out into production? What would you use for that? Let's say that you have a monolith... What would you choose to get updates out into production? |
**Katie Gamanji:** So here's where I would actually have this pipeline. I was actually wondering what a pipeline is, because when I first hear about it, I was an intern at the time, and there was this magical pipeline that can push changes to the production, and sometimes it can take days, because you have [freeze](htt... |
With the CI and CD you usually have different stages that you would like to go through. So once you have your application, you developed a new functionality. The next thing is actually to have some tests. I think this is quite a natural thing to do if you want to have something secure in production. It's very often ove... |
So you have the application, you test it, it kind of passes everything you've been writing out there... The next stage is to package it, building that artifact. When we're talking about an environment where we have data centers, usually the artifact is gonna be a binary. And it can have different formats as well, depen... |
When we're talking about cloud-native, there's gonna be a container image, so usually a Docker image. And what's very good about the Docker image is that you can have a set of instructions building your binary or your artifact. And that's something, again, declarative. You can reuse that, you can change it accordingly,... |
And once you have this image, usually you will need to store it somewhere. That's gonna be, again, different environments; it's gonna be an Artifactory. With cloud-native you'll be able to use something like Docker Hub, you can use Harbor, you can use Artifact Hub currently available... So there are options to store yo... |
So all these stages, like building your functionality, testing it, packaging it and distributing it - this is gonna be the continuous integration. So you've integrated a new functionality and your end result is gonna be a binary. |
Now, the next stage of it is "How do I push this binary? How do I push all of these changes to the production environment?" And this is where we have the continuous delivery. With the continuous delivery usually we have to pretty much propagate the application for different stages. When we're talking about an organizat... |
The reason you actually have all of these environments - and more importantly, they should be set up similarly. So the difference between them is just maybe the endpoint you reach to that cluster, so the API endpoint. But everything else in terms of the setup internally is gonna be the same. |
\[43:54\] So what you actually do within the continuous delivery process is propagating it from one environment to the other... So QA, staging, and production. The passing through all of these stages - the results should be the same; the application should be up and running. So you have at least two possibilities to ve... |
So once you reach the production stage, this is pretty much the continuous delivery process, and hopefully it's gonna be up and running all the way through. So these are pretty much all of the stages that we have. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah. That's a good one. Argo CD is what you're thinking for CD? |
**Katie Gamanji:** Yes. I've actually had to battle \[unintelligible 00:44:41.26\] project manager, because they wanted to use a more traditional tool here... But I was very set up to maybe promote, or maybe -- not necessarily promote, but advocate for the GitOps strategy. It's something which is there, and it's been a... |
Now within the cloud-native space we have Argo CD and FluxCD provisioning these capabilities. Both of them currently are incubating CNC projects, and Argo CD is currently undergoing a \[unintelligible 00:45:27.01\] vote, which means it's stable, it's been used by hundreds of customers, it has a very healthy community, ... |
Argo CD, actually - the reason I've picked it up is mainly because it has these Web UI, so it will be easier for students to visualize their resources. Because once you have a cluster, the only chance for you to interact with it is gonna be through the CLI, the command line... Which is still something not very comforta... |
So that was the main reason, because I think it's gonna be easier for the intended audience here... But that doesn't mean that one is better than the other. It's pretty much - in the context, I think it's the best tool at the moment. |
**Break:** \[46:15\] |
**Gerhard Lazu:** That's really interesting, because you're right, the reason why between FluxCD and Argo CD I also prefer Argo CD because of that visual element. I think the UI is really nice. Not only that, but I'm seeing that other projects, like for example Kubeflow Pipelines, which is about machine learning - they... |
\[48:10\] So it just goes to show that a tool sometimes people use it in unexpected ways, which are good, and many people like... And this is where something new and unexpected just happens. Nobody planned for this to happen, but it's a good thing. So yeah, another vote... |
**Katie Gamanji:** Yeah, \[48:26\] responsive to customer feedback here. I definitely agree on this one, yeah. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** ...yeah, another vote for Argo CD from here. And for CI, I think that's maybe less important... And the reason why it's less important is because, first of all, people have been doing this for such a long time, so you may already have a preference, so whatever you're using is fine. GitHub Actions is t... |
**Katie Gamanji:** Yes. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I mean, you have to store the code somewhere, and then wherever you're storing the code, having the CI part as close as possible to that I think makes a lot of sense. So that's like fairly easy. And for those that use GitLab - well, you already know, but you're taken care of, so that, again, doesn't r... |
Okay, what about monitoring, telemetry, logs, traces, events, any such things? Would you introduce that at these early stages, or would you just maybe mention a couple? How would you approach this? |
**Katie Gamanji:** So this is a very good question, because one of the things that I'm trying to, again, advocate for is - as an application developer, you're gonna still need to understand your infrastructure, but you need to know where it's gonna be pushed, or where it's actually gonna be running and executed. This i... |
So what I'm doing at the beginning of the course and kind of making sure that everyone understands is be aware if your application is gonna be executed. There I'm talking about the health checking points. I'm talking about the metrics endpoints; if you want to export any application-specific metrics - I'm talking about... |
So I'm talking about all of these components and kind of making sure that the students understand them. However, these are gonna be covered even further in the next course - I think it's gonna be course three - which is gonna be focused solely on observability. They will talk about Grafana and Prometheus for metrics co... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** \[52:01\] That's a very good one... Because people don't think about that, and I think based on the platform that you choose, it can be either very easy, or very hard. Once you're really well into your journey and you think you have it, and everything is looking good, then you discover, "Oh, hang on..... |
So sometimes it can be straightforward, and even then, the straightforwardness is in the approach... Because there's those complexities associated to what you care about, what your application does, how it's structured, or your microservices, how they're structured, and it's all very contextual. So it's very difficult ... |
**Katie Gamanji:** I completely agree on this one. And one thing that I want to mention here is that this need of understanding where your application runs is kind of bringing this need for the DevOps practice. I know it's been completely consumed as a topic, but for students that, again, are on the journey of understa... |
So this collaboration, for example, using a particular tracing application, or you need to kind of run or integrate some libraries to collect those logs, so you actually can visualize them in -- I don't know, it can be for example in Splunk, or Datadog; it depends on the tool of choice that you have within the house...... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Okay. So as we're approaching the end, I hope that you really enjoyed what Katie's been saying, because I have... And the course is currently free, or will be free...? There's something like "free" in the tweets; I think it's not very clear. Some people are getting confused about that part, so can you... |
**Katie Gamanji:** Absolutely. This is something that I'm clearing out myself as well. So the way I've built the course, it's supposed to be free. However, because it's part of a wider now degree - so I'm just kind of having a fourth of the entire nano-degree. So there are four courses; the first one is going to be Clo... |
So this is kind of a wider nano-degree put together... So my course is free, but at the moment it's not yet available as a standalone free material. It is gonna be available later on this summer; unfortunately, it's taking longer than needed. But this is because currently we are having 15,000 students that are doing th... |
\[55:46\] So it is gonna be free, it is intended to be free. I am not charging for it at all. I've built it purposely to -- part of my motivation to make cloud-native ubiquitous is making it accessible and available to everyone... Even someone who doesn't do any technology at all, I hope they'll be able to have some pr... |
So currently it's not yet available, but once I have the links, I'm gonna share it and make sure that everyone will have it. I'm actually for further feedback from everyone as well. |
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