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[2968.36 --> 2971.26] Because you have to handle all the cases. |
[2971.26 --> 2976.14] And the second part, which is difficult, is how to package that. |
[2976.76 --> 2984.74] Because AirLong was designed so that, in the end, you do not ship just the RabbitMQ AirLong applications, for instance. |
[2985.02 --> 2993.24] It was designed so that you ship the AirLong VM itself, the AirLong code you want to run on it, and the configuration. |
[2993.24 --> 3002.24] I mean, in the end, it's an appliance that you put on a server, but it's a whole thing, and a standalone thing. |
[3003.06 --> 3007.08] It has the VM, the code, and the configuration. |
[3007.46 --> 3013.20] It's not meant to support changes to that configuration, even that. |
[3013.20 --> 3022.12] And trying to package that, in my previous job, to package that as Debian packages, it was a great challenge. |
[3022.12 --> 3026.90] Because the AirLong VM is installed by other Debian packages. |
[3027.60 --> 3031.62] We also want to be able to change the configuration. |
[3032.00 --> 3042.14] Configuration, which was installed not by the package, but by tools like we were using Puppet, but a configuration management tool. |
[3042.14 --> 3051.42] So, it's quite difficult to use that AirLong feature in today's packaging and configuration management infrastructure. |
[3051.42 --> 3052.62] I remember that. |
[3052.76 --> 3057.06] This just reminds me of the discussion that we had a few years back about this very subject. |
[3057.52 --> 3059.84] And it's interesting how it comes back again. |
[3060.36 --> 3067.52] I remember the plugin system in RabbitMQ being one of the challenges when it comes to packaging RabbitMQ in an Erlang release. |
[3068.20 --> 3072.22] Being able to define what it's running, when, and how it's running. |
[3072.48 --> 3075.44] Again, for the listeners, RabbitMQ has this concept of plugins. |
[3075.78 --> 3077.18] A lot of them ship with RabbitMQ. |
[3077.28 --> 3080.42] Others can be added, just dropped in a directory, and off you go. |
[3080.42 --> 3082.92] And those plugins, they are applications. |
[3083.86 --> 3088.20] So, RabbitMQ really is, this is the way I think about it. |
[3088.50 --> 3095.86] It's a microservices architecture in a single Erlang VM, in a single system process. |
[3096.30 --> 3102.26] Because of all these applications exchanging messages, and by the way, they could be cross nodes. |
[3102.26 --> 3106.58] So, that's where the Erlang distribution comes in, where those messages have to traverse the network. |
[3107.18 --> 3109.02] And then you have a cluster of three nodes or four nodes. |
[3109.70 --> 3118.70] And any message, by the way, this is like an NQP message, or whether it's 091 or 1.0, or any NQT protocol. |
[3118.70 --> 3127.22] It can arrive at any node, and it will end up in the right place, because the cluster is aware of where the members are, where the processes are, how to send those messages internally. |
[3127.70 --> 3128.96] And that's what makes it challenging. |
[3128.96 --> 3133.48] So, the one thing that helped, I think, in recent years is containers. |
[3134.52 --> 3139.34] Containerizing RabbitMQ, having that tarball, which really used to be the Debian package. |
[3139.72 --> 3140.96] Now it's called something else. |
[3141.14 --> 3141.98] FreeBSD jail. |
[3142.34 --> 3143.12] Similar concept. |
[3143.12 --> 3148.68] So, the container allows us to package Erlang, even the operating system, right? |
[3148.72 --> 3151.02] Because that's what you have, OpenSSL, and all the dependencies. |
[3151.30 --> 3154.84] And we have a single tarball, which is a runnable artifact. |
[3155.30 --> 3160.84] You spin it up, and it has everything that you need in the right order, pre-configured, a bunch of things. |
[3161.00 --> 3162.04] So, that really helps. |
[3162.52 --> 3166.96] And then on top of that, obviously, if you use something like Kubernetes, you want a cluster operator, |
[3166.96 --> 3174.44] or an operator that manages your deployments, which is especially important if you have a clustered system, |
[3174.80 --> 3179.20] clustered stateful system, such as RabbitMQ, or a distributed stateful system. |
[3179.96 --> 3181.82] And in those cases, it really helps. |
[3182.34 --> 3187.70] And this just made me realize that one discussion which I would really like to have is with Chuni |
[3187.70 --> 3193.28] about the cluster operator and how RabbitMQ runs in the context of Kubernetes. |
[3193.28 --> 3196.62] Because I think it does a lot of things really, really well. |
[3196.96 --> 3201.70] Being a stateful distributed system on Kubernetes, wow, that's challenging. |
[3202.18 --> 3208.68] And I think the new tools made this problem easier from some perspectives, |
[3208.96 --> 3211.06] but it also made it harder from others. |
[3211.46 --> 3214.12] And adapting to the new world, it's very challenging. |
[3214.58 --> 3217.02] And I think a lot of this is lost to the details. |
[3217.06 --> 3219.28] And it's important because many can learn from this. |
[3219.86 --> 3221.58] Many stateful systems can learn from this. |
[3221.58 --> 3223.98] And I know a few stateful systems like databases, |
[3223.98 --> 3232.00] which don't work that well in the context of containers, of Kubernetes, of things that come and go so often, |
[3232.16 --> 3237.60] networks that break all the time, or more frequently than they do in the traditional data center, |
[3237.66 --> 3239.30] in the traditional bare metal hosts. |
[3239.60 --> 3241.20] So that's something which is challenging. |
[3241.20 --> 3241.76] Okay. |
[3242.24 --> 3250.76] So I would say that my understanding is that you miss this hot code reloading from the olden days that RabbitMQ doesn't have. |
[3250.82 --> 3255.16] And there are some practical limitations why it would be very difficult to implement. |
[3255.52 --> 3258.40] Not impossible, but very, very challenging. |
[3258.40 --> 3261.58] And is there anything else that you miss? |
[3261.98 --> 3265.08] No, I think that's something I would love to see in RabbitMQ. |
[3265.32 --> 3270.00] And even though it's difficult, I don't think it's impossible. |
[3270.20 --> 3275.98] For instance, if we were to ship only bug fixes into our patch versions, |
[3276.40 --> 3280.04] then it would be pretty easy to have that hot code reloading. |
[3280.04 --> 3287.24] And the way you describe it in Erlang means that we could say that going from a patch release to the next one, |
[3287.72 --> 3290.06] it supports hot code reloading. |
[3290.60 --> 3296.84] But we can also say that going from a version to the next miner, it doesn't. |
[3297.10 --> 3299.48] And the VM has to be restarted. |
[3299.94 --> 3302.76] So even that is supported by Erlang itself. |
[3302.96 --> 3308.74] The hot code reloading knows when it cannot be reloaded live. |
[3308.74 --> 3313.62] So I think that if we were to have only bug fixes in patch releases, |
[3313.88 --> 3316.18] we could have hot code reloading implemented. |
[3316.64 --> 3321.34] And it would not add a lot of load to our team, I think. |
[3321.68 --> 3323.38] That is achievable. |
[3324.06 --> 3329.56] And a great benefit from that is that upgrading RabbitMQ to the next patch release |
[3329.56 --> 3332.10] means you don't have to restart RabbitMQ, |
[3332.64 --> 3337.52] which means you don't need to spend a lot of time starting RabbitMQ |
[3337.52 --> 3342.72] if you have thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of queues |
[3342.72 --> 3345.00] and exchanges and bindings and so on. |
[3345.40 --> 3348.70] Well, I've really enjoyed this discussion, JSP. |
[3348.90 --> 3349.24] Yeah, me too. |
[3349.26 --> 3350.14] Thank you for joining me. |
[3350.30 --> 3351.36] It was great fun. |
[3351.76 --> 3353.08] I'm looking forward to the next one. |
[3353.70 --> 3357.94] And I'm wondering if there's any closing thoughts that you have? |
[3357.94 --> 3364.04] Yeah, so I would like to know, in fact, what people are doing in their job |
[3364.04 --> 3370.46] or their personal projects to ship what they produce. |
[3371.06 --> 3376.08] Do they have experience with various release engineering practices |
[3376.08 --> 3381.64] and what works and didn't work for them? |
[3381.64 --> 3387.16] So I would love to hear from their writing software, |
[3387.44 --> 3393.82] but I would also love to hear from people who are consuming those open source projects |
[3393.82 --> 3399.12] or even commercial projects, what they like and what they don't like |
[3399.12 --> 3403.54] when they want to learn more about the new versions of the tool they use. |
[3403.54 --> 3408.36] So if you're a FreeBSD user or a RabbitMQ user, |
[3408.72 --> 3411.28] let JSP know what you like about the release engineering, |
[3411.44 --> 3414.98] what don't you like and what would you like to be better |
[3414.98 --> 3416.96] and what does even better mean for you? |
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