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[2020.76 --> 2025.64] interesting. Is it funny? I'm not sure if it's funny. I hope it's a little bit funny. |
[2025.64 --> 2030.12] That's the killer. I definitely had good feedback on it. So it should be bearable to read at the very |
[2030.12 --> 2035.56] least. Okay. All right. The coffee will make it worth it. No, no, no. I'm joking. Like the funny and |
[2035.56 --> 2039.64] interesting, it's like a killer combo. And if you can do both, it's great. Right. It's like, |
[2040.12 --> 2043.64] the jackpot I think of content. And on the shipping side of that, |
[2043.64 --> 2049.72] that was mostly Ansible, but it ended up being a lot of Ansible because we did split everything |
[2049.72 --> 2055.24] up into microservices. Oh yes. For a three person team. That's what you get, right? I mean, |
[2055.24 --> 2060.20] it's like one of the trade-offs that you get and you may need that, right? I know that some teams do, |
[2060.20 --> 2065.48] but not everyone does. And knowing the difference when to use a microservice versus a monolith is a very |
[2065.48 --> 2071.56] important thing. Like know the answer before you embark on the journey. And even if the answer |
[2071.56 --> 2078.28] comes slower, it's worth it. Take your time. Because getting out of that particular journey, |
[2078.28 --> 2083.80] it will be very difficult. It can be done, but it's unlikely to happen. So it's one thing that |
[2083.80 --> 2088.28] you want to choose wisely. You could choose maybe your cloud provider, you can migrate, |
[2088.28 --> 2095.08] and even that can be a bit difficult, but it's easier than going back from a microservice decision |
[2095.08 --> 2099.08] or a monolith one. By the way, sometimes that is the wrong decision. So we're not saying that one is |
[2099.08 --> 2105.32] better than the other. No. Okay. So we covered about, like we touched on a couple of interesting |
[2105.32 --> 2111.00] things, but I still think we haven't dug deep enough in the whole, before you mentioned about |
[2111.00 --> 2115.80] Kubernetes. So I don't think we dug deep enough into that. One of the reasons why we're even having |
[2115.80 --> 2121.08] this conversation, because I know that for you, Kubernetes doesn't make sense. And that fascinates |
[2121.08 --> 2126.36] me because I'm not saying that everybody should use that. I'm not saying that, but I can see a lot more |
[2126.36 --> 2132.84] reasons to use it than not to use it. And it's that API that, from my perspective, is the best thing |
[2132.84 --> 2139.64] that it has. So it's how it approaches operations and the building blocks that you have at your |
[2139.64 --> 2147.08] disposal. You can achieve the same thing in different ways, but I don't know, having tried most of them, |
[2147.08 --> 2155.16] I kind of like it and it makes a lot of sense. So why in your case, Kubernetes, you're not using it |
[2155.16 --> 2159.88] at all, right? Because I don't think you're using Kubernetes. You hear about it a lot, but you don't |
[2159.88 --> 2166.92] use it. Why is that? My experience with Kubernetes is essentially, I tried K3S at some point and started |
[2166.92 --> 2173.88] sort of learning how to set up manifest files and a lot of swearing ensued. And then I stopped, |
[2174.52 --> 2183.24] essentially. For one thing, I don't generally build systems at a large scale. I typically work with |
[2183.24 --> 2188.60] teams that are maybe five developers or so. That didn't stop us from using Kubernetes |
[2188.60 --> 2192.76] changelog, right? There were like, what, three developers? And like one full time, |
[2192.76 --> 2197.00] and even not that much full time, and we're still using Kubernetes. So that didn't stop anyone. |
[2197.00 --> 2198.04] Yeah. But please continue. |
[2198.04 --> 2202.36] Yeah. I could argue with you whether a changelog should be using Kubernetes. |
[2202.36 --> 2204.36] Yes, please. Let's. |
[2204.36 --> 2211.16] I for sure do not see the need for a system such as the changelog to have Kubernetes. Now, |
[2211.96 --> 2219.00] again, context, the guy that's responsible for operating changelog apparently likes Kubernetes, |
[2219.64 --> 2227.80] which means that he enjoys his job more if he gets to run it on Kubernetes. So it sort of checks out. |
[2227.80 --> 2230.92] But it's not that because I'm that guy. So just like for the listeners, that's me. |
[2230.92 --> 2234.12] Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm absolutely talking about you there. |
[2234.12 --> 2239.32] I'm that guy. Okay. So let's unpack this. I tried to answer this question a couple of times, |
[2239.32 --> 2245.56] and either people, I must be answering it wrong. So let me try again. Okay. The reason why we chose |
[2245.56 --> 2251.96] Kubernetes is because it reached a certain level of maturity. That was one of the things. And Linode, |
[2251.96 --> 2256.92] our partner for all things infrastructure, they started offering a managed Kubernetes service. |
[2256.92 --> 2261.80] So that was important for us, right? We don't want to deal with managing it. So that is a provider |
[2261.80 --> 2269.16] concern. We had to solve a couple of things, like for example, DNS. DNS updates, like whenever the IP |
[2269.16 --> 2275.08] changes or the load balance that changes, the IP has to be updated in the DNS. The certificate, |
[2275.08 --> 2280.36] we used to pay for those. And then Let's Encrypt came along. So how do we get free certificates |
[2280.36 --> 2284.84] via Let's Encrypt and support that mindset? |
[2284.84 --> 2286.20] A cron job. |
[2286.20 --> 2292.52] A cron job. Excellent. Okay, great. Great. A cron job. So yeah, that is a valid answer. |
[2292.52 --> 2301.24] And then how do you push updates? Like, do you have your CI that deploys? In some cases you do, |
[2301.80 --> 2307.16] right? In some cases, the CI is the thing that has the keys to the kingdom. And that's what we had. |
[2307.16 --> 2312.52] And it can do anything. Is that a good thing? I don't think it is. But whatever, you know, |
[2312.52 --> 2318.84] it's just like an opinion. But there's more. How do you keep your certificate in sync between your CDN, |
[2319.96 --> 2326.28] your load balancer, and any other place that may use it? In our case, it was just these two, |
[2326.28 --> 2330.60] the load balancer and the CDN. So you have to keep, not only have to renew it, but then you have to |
[2330.60 --> 2335.32] upload it and make sure it's the same one everywhere. Excellent. How do you run backups? |
[2335.32 --> 2341.64] Another cron job, right? So before you know it, you have like all these things that you need to |
[2341.64 --> 2346.84] have. Like what gets, for example, Docker Compose or whatever you're using in place? What installs |
[2346.84 --> 2352.44] Erlang? What determines which version of Erlang you have? What about the monitoring? Where do you run |
[2352.44 --> 2357.64] that? How do you configure the monitoring? How do you configure, for example, the monitoring, not just |
[2357.64 --> 2363.00] like the metrics and the logging, but I'm also talking about the synthetic monitoring, your pings, |
[2363.00 --> 2367.40] your pingdoms, or your Grafana clouds, or whatever you may be using. And before you know it, you have |
[2367.40 --> 2375.56] all these concerns that typically are either in a wiki or in someone's head or different people |
[2375.56 --> 2379.80] approach it in different ways. In this case, it's just me. So, you know, it's not really a problem, |
[2379.80 --> 2383.64] but you have all these things, secrets. Oh, that's like another one. Where do you store |
[2383.64 --> 2396.04] the secrets and how do you rotate secrets when there's a leak? |
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[2445.24 --> 2450.04] free tier that's super generous. Head to CockroachLabs.com slash changelog to learn more. |
[2450.04 --> 2453.08] Again, CockroachLabs.com slash changelog. |
[2453.08 --> 2468.60] The way I approach this is what is a system that can manage all these things in a way that doesn't |
[2469.24 --> 2474.76] have me worrying about versions as much? Because we use Terraform and we had to do upgrades because |
[2474.76 --> 2480.84] it was running locally. We had plugin issues, we had to upgrade those. And the issues were like |
[2480.84 --> 2486.04] stuff like things that you, problems that you wouldn't expect to have that we were having |
[2486.04 --> 2491.80] because of like this different tooling that we're using. We used Ansible. Did we use Chef at some |
[2491.80 --> 2495.64] point? No, we didn't use. We only used Ansible at some point many, many years ago. By the way, |
[2495.64 --> 2499.56] there was like a progression. So every year we blogged about this. We talked about this. |
[2499.56 --> 2504.44] It didn't just come out of the blue. I know, let's use Kubernetes. No, we've been using Ansible for years. |
[2504.44 --> 2509.72] We've been using Concourse CI to run the builds, to do the deploys. We used Docker Compose and then |
[2509.72 --> 2515.64] Docker Swarm for again, a couple of years. So we grew into this architecture. And right now, |
[2516.52 --> 2522.68] everything is stored, like all the YAML, all the config is stored in the repo. Okay, we have some |
[2522.68 --> 2529.24] Make Glue, which I'm not very proud of. It's great, but I know there's a better way. Maybe Argo CD. I don't |
[2529.24 --> 2534.04] know. GitOps. I keep hearing about that. Maybe we try that. I don't know. But can we have something |
[2534.04 --> 2538.68] that continuously applies those configs and you don't have to have your machine to run that stuff? |
[2539.56 --> 2545.16] So maybe something like a control plane, which is different from your service. And I know that |
[2545.16 --> 2549.56] you mentioned like large scale. I don't think changelog is very large scale. It's a simple app, |
[2550.20 --> 2555.80] but it's still serving many of terabytes every month of traffic. And there's the CDN. When the CDN |
[2555.80 --> 2559.88] goes down, there's a big problem as we had a couple of days ago. And you have to know how to |
[2559.88 --> 2565.80] basically update it very quickly, which we could. And you have to have that space and room. So the |
[2565.80 --> 2570.12] answer is a bit more complicated. It's contextual. And it's not because I like Kubernetes, it's because |
[2570.12 --> 2576.84] it makes all these concerns easier than if we used anything else than we did before, by the way. It |
[2576.84 --> 2584.20] improves on that. Yeah. What do you think about that? Easier for you, I would say. For me, it's like, |
[2584.20 --> 2590.60] I barely know where I would start on making Kubernetes do this. And I did start looking at |
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