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**Gerhard Lazu:** What do you use? |
**Saul Cullen:** We're using Drip at the moment. Drip's a specialist e-commerce email marketing tool. Our integration is relatively light. It's primarily a frontend integration that we've done so far. We'd like to hook into more of the backend and some of the events that we fire off as well; that's something we will no... |
So for us, choosing an email provider that offers all of the things that you need when you're essentially selling things on your site is pretty key, and actually a lot of the email services have gone down that route, to try and answer more specific customer questions... Whether they're the perfect one out there - it's ... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** That's very good, Saul. Thank you for that. I have one last question... I think Alan is the one for this. If I've been listening to this for the last 45, 50, 60 minutes, however long it was, and if there was one key takeaway from this conversation, what would that be, Alan? |
**Alan Cooney:** I think the big technical takeaway certainly is that we've really enjoyed working with all these serverless tools, and they've helped us ship code, and ultimately great features and experiences to customers much faster... So definitely, if you're a developer and you're looking at some of this stuff and... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** That sounds great. Alan, Saul and Wycliffe, it was my pleasure. Thank you very much for taking the time and for sharing so many good things with us. Thank you. |
**Alan Cooney:** Thank you very much. |
**Saul Cullen:** Thank you, Gerhard. |
• Introduction to Dagger, a new tool for application delivery |
• Origins of Dagger: founders' experience at Docker and desire to work together on a new project |
• Problem of fragmentation in CI/CD systems and infrastructure management tools |
• Dagger's solution: unifying existing tools into a cohesive platform for application delivery |
• Focus on applications rather than infrastructure, considering infrastructure as a dependency |
• The "value line" and how it shifts over time, with changes in technology and building blocks (e.g. containers) |
• Definition of an application: everything needed to deploy it, including continuous deployment tasks |
• Dagger's goal is to provide a ubiquitous application delivery standard that allows companies to define their own answer to the question "Where is the line between application and infrastructure?" |
• Dagger differs from Docker by not trying to be a runtime for applications, but rather allowing users to tell it how they want to run and deploy their applications. |
• CUE (Configuration Superpowers for Everyone) is the configuration language used by Dagger to declare application delivery flows. |
• CUE provides a powerful way for platform engineers or application developers to define everything needed to take code from a repository to running live on any environment. |
• Dagger uses CUE packages to provide reusable building blocks, including standard library packages and cloud provider-specific packages. |
• Users can import these packages and use them in their configuration files. |
• Configuration files are used to declare inputs (including secrets) and define how to deploy the application. |
• Running "dagger up" executes the defined deployment plan. |
• Deployment fragmentation: multiple tools and scripts required for deployment |
• Yaml configuration complexity and limitations |
• The need for a more portable and reusable deployment solution |
• Dagger as a potential solution, offering a better development experience and reusability |
• Comparison to Docker's impact on packaging and running applications |
• Potential for Dagger to change the way code is deployed in the future |
• Buildkit and LLB (Low-Level Binary) explanation |
• Dagger using Buildkit for more than just building |
• DAG computation and pipelines |
• Docker dependency and alternatives (Containerd, runC) |
• Volumes and remote execution |
• Comparison with TerraForm (infrastructure management vs CI/CD pipeline portability) |
• Internal use of Dagger at the company |
• Implementing tests using CUE |
• Dagger replacing CI logic for portable test running |
• Deployment of DAGs with Dagger |
• Go Releaser being used in conjunction with Dagger |
• Dagger's closed beta and access process |
• Learning from Docker's success and mistakes |
• Designing a cloud product alongside the open source tool |
• Importance of community involvement in Dagger development |
• Encouraging external contributions as an extension of the internal team |
• The importance of community engagement in building an ecosystem |
• Defining open source contributors as "power users" who contribute to code and documentation |
• How to best contribute to the project: using it, engaging with it, and providing feedback on its usability and documentation |
• Priorities for the project, including: |
+ Building a strong and engaged core community of developers |
+ Creating successful accounts (actual projects using Dagger) |
+ Developing a cloud product with good conversion and retention rates |
• Job openings for founding team members to help build the company and evolve the product |
• The difficulty of finding the ideal candidate for a project or role |
• The pain points and challenges of DevOps and CI/CD |
• The potential for innovation and excitement in the industry despite current difficulties |
• The Dagger platform's closed beta and plans to make it widely available once ready |
• The availability of support and resources from the Dagger team, including community access and expert advice. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** So I have heard of this new tool called Dagger a few months back... And I signed up, and some weeks later I got the invite. It took me a while to look at it properly, but when I did, I really wanted to share the conversation with the people behind it, because it felt special. |
So I would like to start by thanking you for making time, Sam and Solomon, to join me today. We would have had Andrea as well, but unfortunately he's not feeling well, so... Get better, Andrea, and maybe it'll happen next time, all four of us. |
**Solomon Hykes:** Thanks for having us. |
**Sam Alba:** Thank you. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** So I've learned so much about Dagger in the last few weeks, actually... But what I don't know, and I'm sure that other people would really enjoy learning more about, is how did the Dagger idea start, Sam? |
**Sam Alba:** Yeah, it started a while back, actually. We spent a few years at Docker, all of us, and Solomon was the founder, and we worked for many years for Docker, and to make Docker successful... And around 2018 we all decided to do something different in our life. It took us a while to realize that the most impor... |
\[03:46\] So we did that at the end of 2018, went to YC, participated to the batch winter '19. Solomon was actually a partner, he can share more about that experience... And we spent all of this time talking to people and learning about their problems. We interviewed a lot of different companies... And what we learned ... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** So how do you see, Solomon, Dagger fitting in this landscape where the companies are struggling to find solutions, and some of them succeed, but maybe it's not what they expected, maybe it takes too long... How do you see Dagger fitting in this landscape? |
**Solomon Hykes:** I think actually companies looking to build a CI/CD system, to build a delivered platform - they find tons of solutions... And that's sort of the problem - they end up with too many solutions. Different teams using different solutions, different teams deploying differently, multiple CI systems co-exi... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I like that you are talking a lot about applications and about application delivery, and not about infrastructure, which I find interesting. Why is that? Why are you thinking about applications and not about infrastructure? |
**Sam Alba:** It's actually a -the answer can be- can take a long time, is my point. We could talk only about that point, actually. My opinion is the infrastructure is seen differently from different people. What I think is the infrastructure is a dependency to delivering the application, and it should be considered th... |
**Solomon Hykes:** Yeah, I think that infrastructure is a relative term. Infrastructure as a term - it only makes sense relative to something above it. It's the infrastructure FOR something. It's below something. It's the structure below... But below what? In our case, it's below the application. Outside of that contex... |
So from our perspective, the goal is the delivery application. It's a very complex application now, because it's the cloud, and things are complicated... And it's got dependencies, like Sam said. And some of those dependencies are things that you, the application team, cannot change. They're there, and you can use them... |
Different groups of people will place that line in different places, and also, the line will move over time. Containers, when we started with Docker and all that container thing, infrastructure was either bare metal servers or VMs. Containers were not available to most teams as an infrastructure component. So container... |
\[08:12\] Containers were a way to move stuff up, to escape the constraints of existing infrastructure that IT would typically lock down too much. For example, as a developer, if I wanna install a new package for image processing or something, then I have to ask permission from a sysadmin, and maybe it's available, may... |
So containers started out as a tool above the infrastructure line, and then fast-forward five years, the infrastructure industry leveraged containers as a new means of delivering infrastructure, and so now it's largely below the line. So yeah, the point is the line moves over time. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Exactly, I was just gonna say that. I've heard many people talk about the value line, and how the value line is moving... And when you have a PaaS versus an IaaS, the value line shifts, and then the API changes. So the primitives, the building blocks are higher-level. If you use those higher-level bui... |
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