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**Jerod Santo:** Sure. Alright, so I have my business logic, and then it's calling over to Dapr and telling Dapr to store some data, give me some data... |
**Yaron Schneider:** \[01:03:40.01\] Yeah. Handle state at scale for you, do Pub/Sub between services... Yeah. But then the nice stuff for ops people is that no matter where you're running, you can basically tell Dapr to work with the infrastructure of choice for your team. So Dapr doesn't replace a state store, or a P... |
**Jerod Santo:** That sounds cool. Is there like a Dapr stack? Is there like a default set of "These are the plugs that we recommend you plug in", but you can plug in whatever you want? |
**Yaron Schneider:** Yeah, you can basically plug in whatever you want. So that's a really good question. We have the concept of a pluggable component. So for example, if you are using Dapr to talk to some proprietary system that you can't contribute upstream back to Dapr, we have a way for you to write that plugin and... |
**Jerod Santo:** So how did Dapr escape Microsoft? Or how did you escape Microsoft with Dapr, or...? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** ...was there an escape at all? |
**Jerod Santo:** Or maybe you just left? |
**Yaron Schneider:** Yeah, so Dapr was open sourced first in October 2019. It really picked up. We have a lot of end user adopters today, from IBM, to Microsoft, to Alibaba Cloud, NVIDIA... And NASA is running Dapr in outer space as we speak, by the way. |
**Jerod Santo:** That's cool. |
**Yaron Schneider:** I think that's the coolest use case of Dapr. |
**Jerod Santo:** That's gotta feel good, right? |
**Yaron Schneider:** Yeah. It's like the ultimate edge deployment, which is nice. And so it really picked up, we saw a lot of community contribution... Then we decided that we're gonna give it to a foundation, because we want to really make sure that it grows and that we bring other vendors in, and other companies. So ... |
And a year later, we were having a hallway conversation, we were like "Look, we think Dapr can have a much broader future, and we have our own vision for distributed systems and where this can go, and this needs to happen outside of Microsoft." So yeah, we basically started Diagrid. |
We left Microsoft in very good terms. We're still very friendly with all the people there. Microsoft is doing an awesome job on the project. They're contributing to the project, along with Alibaba and Intel; they're the main contributors who are on the Dapr steering committee, alongside us, Diagrid. And yeah, it's been... |
**Jerod Santo:** It's pretty cool to be able to start a project inside of Microsoft, work on it at Microsoft, for Microsoft, donate it -- or not even donate it. It's not the right word. When you CNCF something, is it donated? |
**Yaron Schneider:** Yeah, it is donated. |
**Jerod Santo:** It is the right word. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It's the right word, yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay, donate it to the CNCF... And then start a company around it that builds on it, or around it, or for it after that, as a startup... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Managed. It's a managed version of it. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Yaron Schneider:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's a beautiful world, man. You were kind of saying no for a while. |
**Yaron Schneider:** \[01:07:41.21\] Yeah, for a long while I was so focused in building Dapr into Azure Services, like Microsoft managed services. They have a service that integrates Dapr, so that's what I was working on. And I always thought I would be like an entrepreneur, and start my own company at some point, but... |
**Jerod Santo:** So what turned the no into the yes? Was it a deal you couldn't turn down from a VC? Or was it your partner that was like "Come on, let's do this"? |
**Yaron Schneider:** It was a combination of things. I think mostly we saw Dapr really take off and we figured out yes, there can be a business model, especially around helping enterprises operate it on Kubernetes. Kubernetes is a complex piece of software to operate, and so we really saw the struggle of developers ope... |
But also, ultimately our vision is to come out with a distributed systems API platform that developers from serverless platforms, and really platforms from all types of compute can leverage. So it's like serverless Dapr. You can run it outside of Kubernetes, you can run it wherever you want. And to do that, it needs to... |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. What year was that, when you started Diagrid? |
**Yaron Schneider:** It was January 2020. |
**Jerod Santo:** So a year ago plus, and change. |
**Yaron Schneider:** Yes. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** There's some nice logos here. You've got IBM Research - this is for your company, Diagrid. IBM Research, Intel, Microsoft... Hey, it makes sense. You did that integration. Alibaba Cloud, Huawei, Bosch, Ignition Group, Tencent... I mean, these are major enterprise players. |
**Yaron Schneider:** Yeah. And there are a lot of other players who have not come out as public adopters yet. Really, some of the biggest names in the industry. And what's fascinating about Dapr is that it was adopted by the tech-savvy enterprises before it was adopted by startups, for example. And you usually see it t... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Yaron Schneider:** As a company offering commercial products on top of Dapr, we're not complaining. That's worked out really well. |
**Jerod Santo:** That sounds great for you guys. Why do you think that was? Is it because it solves enterprise-scale problems, or...? |
**Yaron Schneider:** Yes, I think startups, what's most important to them is to make sure that they deliver on their business, which means they want their infrastructure to be as reliable as possible. So they're not as likely to take on new bets on new technologies. But enterprises, on the other hand, they have resourc... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** For sure, yeah. Why is it important to have a managed version of Dapr? |
**Yaron Schneider:** Yeah, so if you're running on Kubernetes, for example, you need to manage Dapr yourself. And as an as a developer, you just talk to the Dapr APIs. It's easy. But as an ops team, it's really difficult to babysit the control plane. On Kubernetes, every type of technology that has a control plane that... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** For large teams. |
**Yaron Schneider:** You need to upgrade, downgrade, do certificate renewals, monitor, observe the infrastructure... So we basically do it for you, and we take all of that pain away for you. And then the other products we're coming out with is serverless Dapr, so using Dapr outside of Kubernetes on whatever compute pla... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Is it a problem of scale that makes you want to go managed, or is it -- like, if I'm a small team with, let's say, a three-node Kubernetes cluster... Is managing Dapr, myself, my ops team - not a big deal, right? |
**Yaron Schneider:** Yeah. If you're a small operation, then managing Dapr yourself will probably be something that \[unintelligible 01:11:44.16\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. It's once you go to much, much bigger. Huawei size, IBM Research size. |
**Yaron Schneider:** \[01:11:53.24\] Well, slightly smaller than that, too. We have really good end users for Diagrid, like Sharper Image, for example. They're a midsize company. They wrote their own application platform, and they replaced it with Dapr internally, because they wanted to really \[unintelligible 01:12:06... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. Can you speak to the reluctant founder journey, to some degree? You said you eventually wanted to be an entrepreneur, you just wasn't sure when... And speak to the "I have this open source project, I incubated, or I am incubating inside of CNCF." Why incubate or donate to the CNCF? What does t... |
**Yaron Schneider:** Yeah. So we donated Dapr to CNCF while we were at Microsoft. And the main reason why we did that was to really gain new contributors. Dapr had a lot of contributors, but being vendor-neutral is something that's really important. If it's a project that spins out of Microsoft, or AWS, or Google, and ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So the primary benefit is vendor-neutral. |
**Yaron Schneider:** Yes. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And new contributors, because you're seen as a level playing field, no bias... |
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