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[2357.62 --> 2363.56] I don't really need to worry about it or it's not something for me to think about adopting in another tool or something like that. |
[2363.76 --> 2368.68] So I think like getting the word out more of like, hey, it's an open thing and you can check it out here. |
[2368.80 --> 2372.78] And we're super looking forward to like your feedback and we accept contributions. |
[2372.78 --> 2376.82] And we're happy to talk to you about questions, feedback, contributions and all that kind of stuff. |
[2376.82 --> 2384.18] Like I think just getting that open dialogue and awareness out there has been really helpful and chatting with folks who are part of different language communities |
[2384.18 --> 2389.18] or who use different tools or to drive different tools and kind of getting their feedback of like, |
[2389.30 --> 2393.84] what are gaps that maybe the spec is missing or that you feel like dev containers overall could be better at. |
[2393.94 --> 2401.14] So that way we can prioritize that in the work that our team does and also get like additional feedback and see how we should shape the future roadmap. |
[2401.14 --> 2407.00] And yeah, like we add, we have a section on the containers.dev site about supporting tools. |
[2407.20 --> 2412.06] So you'll see that it's like trickling out to some other like CLIs and projects and things like that. |
[2412.16 --> 2420.26] But I think also seeing more dev container JSON files or .dev container folders and other open source projects has been a huge help as well. |
[2420.62 --> 2424.86] So then it kind of shows like, hey, folks who are part of this community, you can check out dev containers. |
[2424.86 --> 2432.98] You can use them like getting the word there out more and getting like feedback from those users to like, hey, I'm using it for this kind of scenario and it doesn't work so great. |
[2433.04 --> 2433.80] It's like, OK, cool. |
[2433.86 --> 2436.00] Like tell us more about that and see how we can make it better. |
[2436.14 --> 2440.56] So that way it's better for this whole community and maybe other open source communities and projects over time. |
[2441.56 --> 2446.06] When you get this feedback, what are some of the, I guess, the biggest hurdles to get over? |
[2446.20 --> 2450.42] Like what are the things that really stop people or what are the things that really get people excited? |
[2450.42 --> 2455.62] Obviously, the usefulness, but like what are the things that really push back against using it? |
[2456.32 --> 2465.32] I think at the beginning, it was just them not feeling like a very open or like super adopted thing yet of like, OK, cool. |
[2465.38 --> 2471.04] Yeah, maybe there's good adoption and VS Code specific tooling, but like what other tools are using them? |
[2471.12 --> 2476.26] So sometimes it can be like a chicken or the egg problem of it's like, oh, like, should I support it or adopt it? |
[2476.26 --> 2481.26] And that'll like help other people adopt it or should I wait for other people to adopt it before I want to do it? |
[2481.32 --> 2489.28] So thinking about like, is this for sure something you all are investing in and going to keep open and going to keep freely available and no cost and that kind of stuff. |
[2489.78 --> 2500.66] So I think establishing that trust and awareness with folks is definitely something that isn't just like an easy formula of, oh, yeah, here's how we get the word out to everyone who might want to use this. |
[2500.66 --> 2503.74] And yeah, they're just going to like know and trust and understand that. |
[2503.82 --> 2506.58] Yeah, like we really want to prioritize and invest in this. |
[2506.68 --> 2512.86] But I think it's something you can just kind of show through continued action of, OK, we have an open community Slack channel. |
[2513.08 --> 2517.10] Hey, we have community discussions that we actually respond to and really want your feedback on. |
[2517.10 --> 2523.94] And so just slowly trying to build that trust and understanding and getting that open feedback channel over time has been really cool. |
[2523.94 --> 2527.08] But it's something that we kind of needed to just experiment with over time. |
[2527.08 --> 2532.88] And we're still figuring out like we're still figuring out, hey, what are some cool open source projects that this would make sense to you? |
[2532.88 --> 2537.96] And it doesn't feel like we don't want it to sound like, hey, we think dev containers are for sure the best thing for you. |
[2538.06 --> 2540.64] And we know everything about your developers or your community. |
[2540.84 --> 2542.08] So you have to take this PR. |
[2542.26 --> 2545.04] It's more, hey, like, here's what dev containers are. |
[2545.32 --> 2546.72] We think they could be a good fit. |
[2546.72 --> 2550.08] We'd love to know if you're open to this kind of PR, we can help you with it. |
[2550.18 --> 2553.68] Or is there something you feel like that we're missing that we could add or we could change? |
[2553.74 --> 2555.40] And like, what can we do to get there for you? |
[2555.68 --> 2564.30] I mean, it seems like to me the best pitch for cloud things is like, hey, here's an easy adoption avenue, right? |
[2564.34 --> 2574.00] Like you can be there with your deploy to cloud thing or develop in cloud thing X, just like the one Codespaces works on GitHub.com right now. |
[2574.00 --> 2583.26] And then on the indie side, like the developer side, I just feel like it's such an easy sell because it's like, hey, don't you want your your open source project to be immediately hackable? |
[2583.56 --> 2583.78] Yeah. |
[2583.96 --> 2585.74] Like more people can use it and contribute. |
[2585.88 --> 2586.86] That's awesome. |
[2587.38 --> 2587.58] Yeah. |
[2587.62 --> 2589.18] I mean, it's like, who doesn't want that? |
[2589.18 --> 2590.70] And I think the demystification. |
[2591.00 --> 2600.50] So for us specifically, I know we kind of wanted a Codespaces set up for a little while, but like Adam and I thought, well, we need to talk to Corey and the Codespaces team. |
[2601.08 --> 2608.48] You know, I don't think he's on the team anymore, but when he was, he came on the show and like get have them help us to set up a thing that makes it all happen. |
[2608.48 --> 2617.86] And just the knowledge of, no, you can just have a dev containers JSON on your repo and then it's, that's all you got to have is seven lines of code, you know, kind of a thing. |
[2617.96 --> 2619.48] Of course, different setups are going to be different. |
[2619.66 --> 2621.40] So we have a Docker Compose as well. |
[2621.50 --> 2623.78] You might have more stuff to do, but just like, oh, okay. |
[2623.92 --> 2627.54] And so I think that plays into this other thing you have on the website, which is the templates. |
[2627.78 --> 2630.48] You have kind of two subsections of the dev containers website. |
[2631.28 --> 2637.76] You have the features, which you talked about, but now you have the templates, which to me, I'm reading this and help me understand exactly what these are. |
[2637.76 --> 2639.64] It seems like these are like starter spots. |
[2640.00 --> 2643.64] So if you have a specific kind of project or what are these templates? |
[2643.72 --> 2644.80] Is that, am I thinking about it right? |
[2644.86 --> 2646.58] You can just kind of use one of these and take it started. |
[2647.24 --> 2648.02] Yeah, absolutely. |
[2648.30 --> 2656.56] And I think you also really nailed another challenge and something that I was kind of mentioning earlier of, hey, like, yeah, I don't know where to get started with containers. |
[2656.56 --> 2663.12] Or like maybe I've heard feedback from other folks that they're complex, confusing, time consuming, compute intensive. |
[2663.42 --> 2666.80] So is this something I want to invest in or like should I? |
[2666.80 --> 2669.46] Is this where the community or the market's going? |
[2670.24 --> 2681.40] So, yeah, we really try to make it easier to get started with dev containers and make it so that we're really taking out complexity where folks might have previously found complexity when doing containerized development. |
[2681.40 --> 2686.32] So, yeah, with templates, we have a set that we host as part of the specs. |
[2686.32 --> 2693.16] So for a variety of different languages or scenarios like Python or even just like base Ubuntu or something like that. |
[2693.60 --> 2699.16] And so it'll give you the dev container files necessary to kick off development for that kind of project. |
[2699.40 --> 2705.92] And from there, then you can totally customize it of, hey, I want to add other features or maybe I just want to add other settings or configuration. |
[2705.92 --> 2707.68] That's not in the future and that's totally OK. |
[2708.08 --> 2710.76] But we're trying to just give folks those building blocks. |
[2710.86 --> 2715.40] It doesn't feel like, hey, I'm starting from scratch and that's time consuming and that's intimidating. |
[2715.40 --> 2719.96] It's like, no, this can actually be a fun and even kind of straightforward process. |
[2720.50 --> 2721.78] Yeah, I think that's going to be key. |
[2722.16 --> 2724.62] I was looking at one of the templates there. |
[2724.72 --> 2730.42] It's Elixir Phoenix Node and Postgres, Jared, not MySQL, Postgres. |
[2730.80 --> 2732.10] So, hey, that's perfect. |
[2732.20 --> 2732.70] That's us. |
[2733.00 --> 2734.18] We need all those things. |
[2734.52 --> 2736.30] It doesn't look like ours, though. |
[2736.54 --> 2742.48] I mean, not that it has to be the same, but like there's obviously two different ways to roam in this case, at least. |
[2742.48 --> 2746.58] But I mean, so essentially what you're saying, Bridget, is this template exists there. |
[2747.20 --> 2750.04] You know, I could take the dev container dot JSON. |
[2750.20 --> 2755.10] I can take the Docker Compose YAML file, essentially pull that into my project or something like that. |
[2755.14 --> 2761.12] I haven't read the readme thoroughly, but I can essentially adopt this into my project or start a brand new one from it |
[2761.12 --> 2767.42] and have essentially the building blocks of what is our stack, Elixir, Phoenix, Node. |
[2767.42 --> 2768.46] We're not really using that. |
[2768.56 --> 2772.36] We're using NPM, of course, and different JavaScript things, but Postgres in that case. |
[2772.44 --> 2776.72] So that's essentially the building blocks of the majority of what our application stack is. |
[2776.72 --> 2778.38] Yep, for sure. |
[2778.72 --> 2780.76] And yeah, you can take it as inspiration. |
[2781.08 --> 2783.12] You could use it as your actual dev container. |
[2783.42 --> 2785.18] You can add things to it over time. |
[2785.88 --> 2788.80] And you'll see as well, we also publish a set of images. |
[2789.24 --> 2792.64] So those are going to be referenced in like our templates, for instance. |
[2792.80 --> 2799.10] And so you can kind of extract any of the things that we're publishing as, hey, maybe I can use some of this, all of this, take it as inspiration. |
[2799.10 --> 2801.70] And go from there for configuring my environment. |
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