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[373.54 --> 377.54] like why postgres and why not my sequel or something else right but i don't really hear that anymore like |
[377.54 --> 378.54] it's the default no |
[378.54 --> 380.54] do you think it could be |
[380.54 --> 386.54] i think it's a really somewhat technical and then also somewhat drama related like there's been a lot of drama in the my |
[386.54 --> 387.54] sequel space hasn't there |
[387.54 --> 389.54] like with licensing and |
[389.54 --> 390.54] yeah |
[390.54 --> 391.54] yeah |
[391.54 --> 395.54] shifting like just drama behind the scenes to sort of like make it not very community friendly |
[395.54 --> 396.54] yeah |
[396.54 --> 400.54] i mean postgres is also good very technically you know very good technically but like i wonder if that's also |
[400.54 --> 402.54] a reason to be like don't go there |
[402.54 --> 407.54] i'm sure it's a factor postgres has always had a slightly different community than many other open source projects |
[407.54 --> 419.54] like it's a truly community driven and not not like owned by any single company yeah so that's different i think that has helped to keep it alive for a long time so you can't acquire postgres |
[419.54 --> 436.54] that being said that community is aging i'm not sure you may have seen james governor's recent post on redmonk about the aging postgres community and how do we actually transition like where do we go from there yeah and there's always new people coming but it's right i mean the the core people who ... |
[436.54 --> 440.54] who have been added for a long time are definitely aging none of us is getting any younger |
[440.54 --> 442.54] all right can you summarize some of that jared |
[442.54 --> 446.54] well just if you look at the core contributors to postgres |
[446.54 --> 449.54] generally speaking they're men in their 50s |
[449.54 --> 453.54] they're at the you know in the fourth quarter of their careers at least |
[453.54 --> 457.54] maybe they would argue that but you know they're not in the kickoff stage of a career |
[457.54 --> 458.54] or halftime |
[458.54 --> 466.52] or halftime i would argue fourth quarter maybe they say third quarter regardless they're getting on the older age of the spectrum and then like what happens to the |
[466.52 --> 496.50] project as those very key players retire right move on lose interest it's not dominated by any one person though so there's there's a lot of people working on it and if you look at the wider ecosystem like there's a lot of extensions and there's a lot of stuff happening around postgres and there's ... |
[496.50 --> 526.50] the ecosystem like here's a brand new startup yeah relatively couple years old contributing building extension for sure etc for sure that's a and putting my community had on like that's one run reason why i'm excited to work for neon i hope i can actually make a difference on that and bring some ne... |
[526.50 --> 556.50] what was your criteria for choosing for postgres well i've never really used postgres so my my background is that i was working on a systems integrator and uh i had some free time on my ad so i've always been a programmer i've always been doing stuff and i'm a big fan of the relational model once i... |
[556.50 --> 586.50] i looked at my book and i looked at my book and i looked at my book and i looked at my book and i looked at databases i looked at my SQL code i looked at Postgres i think i looked at some others but Postgres was the one that was like easy to read and easy to do it was a pleasure to kind of read thr... |
[586.50 --> 616.48] a significant change to postgres if it lands or if it happens in a long time you want you want to tell us about that you must be talking about the multi-treading changing to multi-traded architecture yes so yeah that was uh that that came up in conversation in pgcon at the end of may uh with some o... |
[616.50 --> 646.38] like multi-traded architecture would be better at this point but there's a lot of history of course like multi-pro it's not it's not easy to change to go from multi-process architecture to multi-threaded so that might be the thing can you explain the foundational difference between multi-process an... |
[646.38 --> 676.32] uh the thread is basically that threads all share the same address space uh in the in the process uh whereas with processes each process has its own address space and that makes a difference in in what you can how easily you can share data or share uh data structures between the connections uh so m... |
[676.32 --> 706.16] would that would make it easier to share them right does that change the cpu utilization as well it might yeah i mean like if i looked at htop but i just see like when postgres is being pinged just like one line or like if i had eight cores all eight cores lit up yeah so multi-threading wouldn't di... |
[706.16 --> 736.00] actually a lot of effort went into working around the fact that we don't we it's a multi-process architecture so we actually have to build a lot of infrastructure to share the data between the processes which would be a lot simpler in multi-threaded architecture but uh so i think we could probably ... |
[736.00 --> 763.52] in order for it to be thread safe right yeah sure that used to be a problem back in you know 20 years ago when when this was probably the first time discussed uh i think if you look at back at the 95 or 96 discussions and i think i've seen some comments saying well postgres is multi-processed now b... |
[763.52 --> 769.64] if you were assuming multi-processed for all these years these 25 years right and not thinking multi-threaded i imagine |
[769.64 --> 777.10] it's not an insignificant change to the software oh sure yeah oh right so thread safety uh that used to be a big deal |
[777.10 --> 783.68] a long time ago uh but nowadays libraries i mean most software when people is people are writing software now they |
[783.68 --> 788.14] would start with the multi-thread architecture so that's not really a problem anymore like all the libraries are |
[788.14 --> 817.26] multi-threaded or multi-thread safe there are thread safe versions of everything uh so that was that was a good argument or would have been a problem 20 years ago not really a problem not really a problem now what are they of course switching you know yeah the existing code uh need to be adapted so... |
[817.26 --> 828.60] so so so that's going to be the hard part in this to figure out how do you detect the cases where it's where something is not thread safe i mean it seems like this feature is a excellent case study |
[828.60 --> 847.20] in how a large change to a open source multi organization teamed core team you know introduces an idea agrees on the idea like the governance involved and then the actual work who does it how does it get divvied out and then how |
[847.20 --> 876.92] does it actually land and transition isn't that a yeah we're really complicated beast yes it is and how does it work we'll see how it ends up uh postgres doesn't have like a very there's no voting system there's no though uh it is actually hard to even make decisions like that because it's not well... |
[876.92 --> 886.18] but yeah it can be hard to pull off big changes like that so but at the end of the day like what really first thing that needs to happen is someone actually needs to do all of the work to show |
[886.18 --> 891.46] i was gonna say what's the thing you got the idea out there is there any code is are you asking for |
[891.46 --> 899.26] consensus and then the work well what's the stage of this idea is it just it's just an idea at the moment like i've spent a few |
[899.26 --> 906.16] hours days maybe thinking about it and uh writing some very preliminary stuff that you know some small |
[906.16 --> 910.98] changes that we should make anyway just to clean up the code uh but no there's no there's no real concerted |
[910.98 --> 915.92] effort yet yeah that's gonna be a lot of work i mean the first thing to do is to well and what i wanted to |
[915.92 --> 922.84] do with the uh posting in june was to make sure that i'm not missing some you know uh that i actually |
[922.84 --> 926.42] understood the right that there is consensus that this would be a good thing if we had it |
[926.42 --> 931.14] uh and that there is no strong objections from any of the core people on that |
[931.14 --> 936.16] uh you know otherwise it would be pointless to spend any time on it yeah uh but the next step |
[936.16 --> 940.92] really needs to be to actually start to write some code to do that uh i don't know if i'm gonna do |
[940.92 --> 946.56] that maybe or maybe i'll have to do it together with the team sure um but we'll see is that something |
[946.56 --> 951.16] that would be beneficial for neon i imagine it would be it would be and then neon would be willing to |
[951.16 --> 956.32] fund the development of yeah i think we yeah so yeah it would benefit neon because |
[956.32 --> 962.00] we do all the scaling uh and uh that becomes easier if in a multi-traded architecture because |
[962.00 --> 967.36] that makes it easier to resize some of the uh buffer cash it makes it easier to share some of |
[967.36 --> 970.64] those cases kind of the same problems that everyone has like it would benefit everyone |
[970.64 --> 976.64] uh but yeah for neon that that would really help with the other scaling part gotcha when we had nikita |
[976.64 --> 982.74] on the show probably 18 months ago roughly exactly this time last year oh was it i think a year ago |
[982.74 --> 990.38] he mentioned three or four patches that neon adds to postgres to customize for your guys's needs and |
[990.38 --> 994.46] how they were trying to upstream those he wasn't sure if that was ever going to happen but he thought |
[994.46 --> 1000.16] you know good chance but takes time etc any update on upstream contributions from your team yeah so |
[1000.16 --> 1006.08] those patches are still out there not much has happened unfortunately uh the biggest patch we have |
[1006.08 --> 1010.72] is to do what's called the storage manager api in postgres which isn't really an api because there |
[1010.72 --> 1016.88] has hasn't really been any other implementations in the past 20 years uh so that patch is still out |
[1016.88 --> 1021.74] there to make that more pluggable but there has been no progress so it's with the postgres community and |
[1021.74 --> 1025.52] i'm sure other communities have the same problem it's hard to sometimes get attention to these things |
[1025.52 --> 1030.58] if you know if no one else is really feeling the pain there's there isn't much happening uh although |
[1030.58 --> 1035.16] on that there has been a lot of good discussions like there are and some other ideas people could do with |
[1035.16 --> 1041.94] those patches and those uh those apis uh but yeah nothing has been committed yet the the patches are |
[1041.94 --> 1046.56] essentially the way it writes to disk instead of writing to the disk it writes distributed yeah so |
[1046.56 --> 1051.16] neon plugs in at a really low level so whenever postgres would read a page an eight kilobyte page from |
[1051.16 --> 1057.84] disk uh like we hook in at that point so you read it from elsewhere like from our storage system uh so |
[1057.84 --> 1063.40] yeah making that having a extension point there in postgres would help to eliminate those patches that sounds |
[1063.40 --> 1067.80] like your competitive advantage though neon's competitive advantage like couldn't if that patch |
[1067.80 --> 1073.02] goes into open source does that become a threat well it's already out there open source anyone can |
[1073.02 --> 1079.32] already use it uh so that's true and neon you know lives and dies with postgres hood right okay about |
[1079.32 --> 1083.96] the community that's what i was trying to get to like if this can be used by the enemy let's just say |
[1083.96 --> 1088.18] is that a bad thing you know i made peace with that thought a long time ago when i started to work on |
[1088.18 --> 1092.82] postgres like it is a liberal license people can take and then yeah do whatever they like with it |
[1092.82 --> 1097.70] uh i think it speaks to the company though it speaks to the dna and the outlook of the company which is |
[1097.70 --> 1105.54] why i asked that it's like yeah sure do people see neon as a a player a safe player i don't know a nice |
[1105.54 --> 1111.22] player in the postgres world or are you trying to build a proprietary mode i sure hope people see us |
[1111.22 --> 1115.54] friendly okay that's a better word friendly we want to partner with everyone and we like to make |
[1115.54 --> 1122.26] friends right so you're waiting on those particular patches who knows postgres has a project you know |
[1122.26 --> 1127.62] you say you live and die with it it seems like through its history has had times where it's quote |
[1127.62 --> 1134.18] unquote fallen behind with features and other people pop up and say you know look at these no |
[1134.18 --> 1138.66] sequel for instance look at look what we can do with json right and then eventually postgres was like well |
[1138.66 --> 1144.98] we added all the json things and now we can also do that what's next in that line like what are you |
[1144.98 --> 1148.90] seeing out there or maybe what you guys are building where it's like postgres can't do that but people |
[1148.90 --> 1157.30] are doing it and now it's gonna have to catch up at some point um that's a good question i mean putting |
[1157.30 --> 1161.46] my knee on how to all those the storage related stuff that we are doing separation of compute and storage |
[1162.26 --> 1167.54] although that is out there in the open source so people could take up and run with it i don't know if |
[1167.54 --> 1173.22] that will fully take over the world or if that will stay to be uh something that we do we'll see |
[1173.22 --> 1178.18] i mean but there are competitors doing similar architectures as well uh then there's all of |
[1178.18 --> 1183.38] exciting stuff happening with pg vector for example rector service everyone that's a hot topic uh but |
[1183.38 --> 1187.54] i think that is like i think postgres is actually doing pretty well there yeah like the pg vector is |
[1187.54 --> 1194.18] popular and it will it keeps you know keeps uh improving at its own pace and that's that's all good |
[1194.18 --> 1199.62] a similar thing that's with post gis like postgres is pretty dominant in the gis world with that yeah |
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