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[4346.88 --> 4353.04] the quality of of an application or a project from that perspective we also wanted to be able to assess the |
[4354.00 --> 4362.24] you know at multiple levels of the you mentioned adam that you're not a big fan of supply chain uh as as a |
[4362.24 --> 4367.68] term for for this generally a pejorative like yeah open source is not a supply chain it is a commons |
[4368.24 --> 4373.68] right it's not a supply so we just tap into and get yes it's a negative yeah if you think of like |
[4373.68 --> 4379.20] if you think about your dependency graph you know i think it would be great to evaluate evaluate |
[4379.20 --> 4385.12] multiple nodes on that dependency graph and not just evaluate your node so how well are the upstream |
[4385.12 --> 4390.48] projects that you're depending on how well are they keeping up with dependencies that they're managing |
[4390.48 --> 4395.52] and so i think you know that could be uh some pretty good meta analysis as well a way to maybe even |
[4395.52 --> 4403.52] measure the health of a project that you're thinking of uh working with and this the similarity between |
[4404.08 --> 4409.92] maintenance this idea freshly how old are my dependencies how fresh are my dependencies and this |
[4409.92 --> 4415.68] aspect of security because a lot of maintenance or even like a refresh on on a project like you've |
[4415.68 --> 4421.12] talked about it's kind of a security burden like some of these products might be security-esque |
[4421.68 --> 4427.60] that you're talking about and so i think you know having out-of-date dependencies one of the motivations for upgrading them |
[4428.16 --> 4435.92] is very much to try to avoid security issues that's one of the motivations i think there's also motivation around |
[4435.92 --> 4442.80] team productivity it's a lot easier to work with the latest version of a library than it is an older version just in terms of finding documentation |
[4442.80 --> 4447.04] you know when you go look for the documentation for for projects you're going to find the latest |
[4447.04 --> 4451.76] the latest version is going to be easy it's usually findable yeah yeah blog posts are going to usually |
[4451.76 --> 4458.80] cover more recent versions than what you're working with is has been my experience so uh but yeah on the |
[4458.80 --> 4464.24] security angle you know that that i i think is a big motivator to try to avoid some of those security |
[4464.24 --> 4468.64] issues and a lot of people we've put the product in front of to kind of give demos they told us in |
[4468.64 --> 4474.16] addition to just seeing how out of date things are they do want some perspective of how security plays |
[4474.16 --> 4480.40] a factor so i've taken one of the dependency freshness measures that we're using is is called |
[4480.40 --> 4488.48] libyr and you can learn more about that at libyr.com and then i've taken a security approach to that and |
[4489.36 --> 4496.32] built what i call like a liability index which computes a similar metric as libyr but it looks at instead |
[4496.32 --> 4500.24] it where libyr looks at the distance and time between the version that you're using and the |
[4500.24 --> 4506.16] latest version uh the liability index which i i published the liabilityindex.com we haven't |
[4506.16 --> 4513.28] implemented a version of it yet but it looks at the version you're using and the distance between |
[4513.28 --> 4518.16] the next version that doesn't have any vulnerable any published vulnerabilities so you know if the |
[4518.16 --> 4525.76] version you're on has published vulnerabilities yeah how many how many years in the future you have to go |
[4525.76 --> 4530.88] do you have to go in order to find a version that doesn't have any published vulnerabilities and so |
[4530.88 --> 4535.92] i think that could give more of a kind of a security focused approach uh to that and and maybe even |
[4535.92 --> 4541.12] looking at different levels for like you know liability index at the critical level or you know |
[4541.12 --> 4546.16] different different severity levels so i think that's the thing about source graph like source graph |
[4546.16 --> 4551.84] is an intelligence platform that helps you understand code part of that understanding is like is my stuff |
[4551.84 --> 4556.56] vulnerable yeah or prone to vulnerabilities and one of the things that we're trying to do that's |
[4556.56 --> 4563.20] unique with freshly is not just capture how things are right now but capture how they used to be yeah and |
[4563.20 --> 4567.12] graphing that over time so this these metrics that were that we're collecting and we're computing |
[4567.84 --> 4573.12] we're mining information from the source code repository and computing what these metrics would have been |
[4573.12 --> 4579.20] like in the past and and graphing that information and i think the trend can can really paint a really |
[4579.20 --> 4584.08] interesting picture for for leadership and hopefully get budget for some of these improvement efforts |
[4584.88 --> 4589.36] something i've seen on a lot of teams is there'll be engineers on the teams who are aware this is a |
[4589.36 --> 4594.32] problem they want to fix it they don't like that that they're living with the status quo and they feel |
[4594.32 --> 4598.96] like their leadership hasn't given them enough flexibility to really go in and solve the problem they |
[4599.76 --> 4604.56] they feel like they're told to obsess over features instead and some of these essential maintenance |
[4604.56 --> 4611.12] activities get deprioritized sure and you think bubbling that up to somebody with decision making |
[4611.12 --> 4617.04] that's my that's my hope is that if if leaders the the people who are kind of in control of the |
[4617.04 --> 4621.84] priorities and people who are in control of funding if they had a better understanding of the problem i |
[4621.84 --> 4628.32] think they would make different choices i think in a large respect how out of date dependencies are |
[4628.32 --> 4632.72] is it's invisible it's even invisible to the team a lot of times they just kind of like |
[4632.72 --> 4637.68] you know they pull in a package they start using it and they move on and you know it there's not |
[4637.68 --> 4642.72] really much to help them stay up to date and kind of keep aware of that that's starting to change a |
[4642.72 --> 4646.56] little bit with pack different package ecosystems i feel like npm's doing a pretty good job with |
[4646.56 --> 4652.56] letting people know when things are out of date when they do a you know an npm install uh you know |
[4652.56 --> 4658.96] npm outdated is a you know a really good tool set for folks and it has really good output and you know |
[4658.96 --> 4664.08] and you know it's easy to read and i think more package ecosystems are starting to adopt that |
[4664.80 --> 4669.52] that strategy and that approach my hope is that that helps and kind of increase awareness |
[4670.80 --> 4674.96] i really do think it's interesting to see like how well the team has been doing at keeping up |
[4675.52 --> 4682.48] with with that churn and and obviously like because of supply chain attacks again like that that's what |
[4682.48 --> 4687.36] they're called and the security ecosystem is applying it's sorry adam it's a it's a fun i don't think it's the right |
[4687.36 --> 4692.16] term but it is that term so i'm cool with it um well and this is all in conversation because i was |
[4692.16 --> 4697.68] talking about web socket and how they secure the open source supply chain so we were like i'm like |
[4698.80 --> 4705.76] you get it so socket security you're talking about socket not web socket gosh i'm such a fool oh socket |
[4705.76 --> 4713.92] security socket okay suck anyways no worries strike that we'll fix it and um that out like matt says |
[4713.92 --> 4720.32] the uh i'll stay in it so i can thank you for helping me out on that so supply chain attacks are |
[4720.32 --> 4728.00] definitely a big risk and you can have an upstream library that gets taken over by a nefarious actor |
[4728.64 --> 4734.48] and so seeing up with the latest and greatest all the time so just like if you're using the pentabot |
[4734.48 --> 4739.36] yeah just merging those in blindly that might not be the best idea because you you do make yourself |
[4739.36 --> 4745.84] vulnerable to to some of those vulnerabilities totally you know at the same time you don't |
[4745.84 --> 4751.68] want to let yourself get months out of date right uh the where's the balance yeah because the with |
[4751.68 --> 4759.28] the equifax breach from 2017 that was uh one apache struts dependency on the date that they were attacked |
[4760.32 --> 4764.48] they were out of date by two months for the library that had the patch for that vulnerability |
[4764.48 --> 4770.08] so that the two-month win two-month window for that project and that was a very very impactful |
[4771.52 --> 4776.00] you know vulnerability it was a very impactful event it affected a lot of people the freshness |
[4776.64 --> 4782.48] yeah of that library was stale by two months uh yes right when when you when you look at when you look |
[4782.48 --> 4786.48] at that particular vulnerability i don't know if all the vulnerabilities were patched in that release but |
[4786.48 --> 4793.04] i know that the vulnerability that that they were ultimate ultimately exploited on was you know two months |
[4793.04 --> 4801.20] out of date so and and and i think a lot of it is a lot of teams don't make updating things a regular |
[4801.20 --> 4806.56] part of their practice it's it tends to be really challenging it's it takes a lot of effort to upgrade |
[4806.56 --> 4811.12] some of these dependencies especially if they include breaking changes right a lot of times software |
[4811.12 --> 4816.56] systems are really tightly coupled to these dependencies so upgrading them is really non-trivial and so i think |
[4817.12 --> 4822.08] you know kind of going back to like martin fowler has a quote where if something is difficult you need to |
[4822.08 --> 4828.64] do it more often so if if software teams got in the habit of updating dependencies more often and |
[4828.64 --> 4834.32] kind of doing it as a practice and and really you know devoting time or even maybe devoting a team |
[4834.32 --> 4839.92] member whose job it is is to stay on top of this stuff yeah then i think you know that could really help |
[4839.92 --> 4844.64] help turn things around and keep keep projects healthier but on the other side the supply chain |
[4844.64 --> 4849.84] attacks like the event stream one etc yep those hit people who don't have their dependencies pinned to a |
[4849.84 --> 4854.40] version and their ci is just going to pull the latest exactly and so that's the other side that's |
[4854.40 --> 4860.72] too fresh yes you know so like what what is the right balance it seems like unless you have a known |
[4860.72 --> 4868.32] vulnerability staying one minor release behind is actually a best practice yeah and once there is |
[4868.32 --> 4872.40] a known vulnerability now you got to get up to you know immediately to the latest i don't know that |
[4872.40 --> 4876.80] could be a really good strategy yeah and and yeah i think you know and it also comes down to risk |
[4876.80 --> 4881.12] tolerance and different organizations have different levels of risk tolerance you know |
[4882.00 --> 4885.36] state you know and there are organizations that aren't interested in staying on the bleeding edge |
[4885.36 --> 4889.68] and i think there is a good argument to be made for if something's not broke then don't fix it just |
[4889.68 --> 4896.24] because it's old doesn't mean it's bad right um but i i do think that you do have these productivity |
[4896.24 --> 4901.20] impacts and you do have these security impacts when you are working with older older libraries and |
[4901.20 --> 4908.16] older versions of frameworks yeah well i mean hopefully these products will be a new breathe |
[4908.16 --> 4912.96] new life into corgi bites yeah i think you know it'll be um a little bit of transformation you know kind |
[4912.96 --> 4920.88] of like um in the the cycle of um you know growth and reinvention and and rebirth and and i think you |
[4920.88 --> 4928.32] know that will be you know part of part of the life cycle this you know we had when we were focused as a |
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