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**Ajay Kulkarni:** I'm a big fan of that idea, the concept of play. When something feels like play, that's when you know you're in it. You're in the flow, you are doing the thing you should be doing. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Ajay Kulkarni:** And if I ever write a book, I think the title will probably be Play... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Nice. |
**Ajay Kulkarni:** \[51:57\] I think that should be the driver. It's like, look for things that feel like play. Because those are things that really kind of fit who you are. And if you find something that feels like play and it also lets you kind of support yourself or your family - yeah, dude, that's the jackpot. But ... |
Yeah, I don't know, I think that's part of the joy, is being like "Hey, this thing that used to take me a week, or I couldn't even do before, now and get done in an afternoon, totally throw it away and start again the next day." |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Try to juxtapose the timeframe of IoT company, using Postgres, needing time-series... Engineer, developer, employee, whatever, comes to you and says "I could do this in Postgres. I could do it in a month." You're like "Yeah, you're ambitious. You can do it in three months." 12 months later, that who... |
**Ajay Kulkarni:** I mean, a lot faster. \[laughter\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** A week? A day? |
**Ajay Kulkarni:** I don't even know, man... I mean, I think this is the theme in the AI land, is "Just ship." You know? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** "Just ship"? Okay... |
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Just ship. We're a database company, so we have a slightly higher bar than maybe a classic app... But yeah, just ship. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a shift between -- it used to be hard to build, but now it's much easier to build, which probably means that more of the bottleneck then becomes a di... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It's always been the bottleneck though, distribution and awareness; it's just exacerbated now. |
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Yeah, but I remember once upon a time, pre-AWS... I mean, you probably remember this too, which is like, to start a company you needed to -- you needed a server rack, you need maybe a couple of Sun Microsystems machines, Oracle ADI database... And just to get started was such a high bar that a lot of... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[56:08\] How much do you know about, I suppose, the details of the CLI and the MCP server that is in your products? Because I felt it was pretty -- when I looked behind the scenes of the open source of that, you know, it's elegant, the way you've married a CLI and an MCP server in a single binary. |
**Ajay Kulkarni:** That's right. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's pretty wild. I think the design is -- I had to borrow it, honestly. |
**Ajay Kulkarni:** That's good. Great. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I've got a couple of things I'm working on, that are... One is a DNS resolver, and I wanna like talk to the resolver... And so the obvious answer is to have an API. But then you also have to have a CLI that talks to the API. But then I'm like "Well, I'm actually using an agent, so I'm taking a playb... |
**Ajay Kulkarni:** I know the team that built it is really smart... I think they looked at a couple of different options. I think the way it works right now is that the CLI will run a local MCP server, which then speaks to a remote one that we have. And the remote one is where we index -- you know, our MCP will allow y... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. |
**Ajay Kulkarni:** You know? It's kind of like a door handle. You're like "I know I can turn this." This is one of the reasons why Tesla door handles trip some people off, because they don't see the handle. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** They're like "What's going on here?" Yeah, \[unintelligible 00:58:29.22\] |
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Actually, I think that's bad design. But an affordance is when the tool teaches you how to use it, because it's designed the right way. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Like games, like Mario. The Super-Mario Brothers, the first game - that was why it was... |
**Ajay Kulkarni:** That's right. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Level one was level one. It was teaching you how to play level two and three and four. |
**Ajay Kulkarni:** So this is where -- MCP to me is not just an API, it's essentially a way to expose tools for agents. To essentially think about like "Hey, we used to make these handles for human hands, but now we're gonna make them for agent hands." And that is a really growing art... Anthropic, who developed MCP, t... |
Yeah, so I think the team's done some good stuff. There's some really other -- some good stuff that we're gonna release soon... But I think MCP design -- I think this idea of designing for a new user, the agent, is I think a really fascinating area. |
**Break**: \[59:50\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, we've heard the term dev tools, and now we have agent tools. |
**Ajay Kulkarni:** That's right. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's how I think about things. And I've done a couple toy CLIs just to play with them. One for Proxmox -- so I'm a home labber... I don't know what kind of nerd you are, but I love to home lab. And one of the epicenters of my home lab is some version of a Raspberry Pi somewhere, or an Intel NUC, o... |
So I was like, it only makes sense now that when you design these tools, you can't just design the old way, which was "Well, I'm designing this, obviously, to solve a human problem, so it's gonna be a human using it..." Now we have humans that are still there, they're still the human in the loop or on the loop, dependi... |
**Ajay Kulkarni:** A hundred percent. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And the agent speaks a different language, reads a different way, and it interacts with a command line or an API in a different way... And that's where MCP, or even like Claude plugins come into play. How do you feel about that world? How do you feel about agents in our Postgres? ...and now we can a... |
**Ajay Kulkarni:** I mean, agents will be in everything, because I think it is someone helping you use the thing that you're using. I mean, you may not have an agent like inside the database itself, but you probably have an agent inside the system that's running the database. That's one thing we're exploring right now ... |
No, but it's totally right. Again, it's not replacing the human. It is the human doing the thing they need to do, but now they're doing it through an agent. And so now you're saying, "Okay the job to be done is still the same, but the thing doing the job is different." And so it's gonna need different things than what ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Absolutely. |
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Yeah. I mean, I think some places we're looking at is like "What are some of the menial tasks in a database that you don't really wanna do?" Okay, cool. Maybe you start there. But also, what are some tasks that you can't do? Maybe an agent can, because agents aren't limited by time and space. They ca... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[01:06:06.14\] When I look at what you've done with agentic Postgres, which I think is -- I'm not sure if you're trying to brand that term... I think it is the first time I've heard it, and I wonder if that will just become the thing, and it's a product named like Xerox, or Kleenex... And I won't b... |
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Yeah, I mean, this CLI -- I mean, I think CLIs have been useful for... They've been a thing for a long time. What, 15 years, maybe more? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Ajay Kulkarni:** I mean, I don't know, if you look at Unix, maybe it's forever, you know? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** They're on their way back. I feel like CLIs are like the next frontier, in a way, really. I feel like the next year or so we're gonna have this massive swath... And maybe some will live and some will die, but that's gonna be the delivery mechanism. So yeah, it's just -- |
**Ajay Kulkarni:** I think the key thing is the CLI is a clear program that agents can use. So okay, so when we built up Tiger CLI - it's written in Go; it's distributed as a single binary. It essentially provides a unified control plane for your database on Tiger Cloud. And so it covers auth, obviously creating, start... |
I don't know, I would say -- I'm not sure if this is true, but it probably is... It's probably the first AI-native CLI for Postgres. It's not just -- I think other Postgres CLIs are just like API wrappers, but this is really thinking about bringing the CLI commands into the agent, but then also giving agents the Postgr... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. I mean, I know a lot of developers hang out in the command line, but I feel like to some services the CLI was not so much an afterthought, it was sort of "You have to do it", but not a lot of people would use it as the kind of primary interface. And now that we have agents in the command line,... |
\[01:10:06.22\] Maybe MCP - there's talk about "Is it a fad, is it not?" I'm still not sure, because how sure can you be when things change on the weekly, even on the daily...? But just this idea that now the new frontier for a service is a cloud, is an API, and is a CLI at its best... And maybe MCP lives or dies, but ... |
**Ajay Kulkarni:** That's right. |
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