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0 | Sorry for the spam on all the other veg sub reddits, I wasn't sure how else to advertise this. I had the idea for this when someone complained about people coming to veg subreddits to troll or debate. I think this will be a good place for vegetarians like me who don't care that much about recipes, or the latest celebrity who said they might go vegan, or some chicken-torture video, but who just want to argue with someone. I've had some great arguments on lots of topics to do with eating animals, and I can't wait to see some here. |
1 | So I'm a vegan. My justification is very weak-- I'm tremendously uncomfortable with the idea of causing the suffering that goes with the production and consumption of animal products/bi-products. So I don't do it. Period. Ok, that's preaching to the choir.
Here's the problem. Veganism--it's just a great indulgence of emotions. What are these rights you speak of? Point to them! Show me they exist! Try to convince someone who doesn't have the same emotional reaction to killing that these things are "wrong." "How arrogant!" he will cry, "that you think there are ethics to back up your emotional reactions! Why, I can conjure an ethical worldview to support mine too!" (pretty sure this hypothetical person would find an Ayn Rand quote to toss in about here). In short, can anyone provide a compelling argument for the sort of ethical posturing--liberation=good, exploitation=bad--which is so often used as the basis for any esoteric justification of veganism?
As for me, if it's only an indulgence of emotions, then I'm just a damned hedonist.
So this concern is meta-ethical--not the usual fair for vegan debates--but I thought I'd toss it out there to get some chit-chat going. |
2 | Would you eat lab grown meat? If not, why not? |
3 | Here are some vegan, vegetarian, *and related* food-reddits:
1. [veg](/r/veg)
* [vegan](/r/vegan)
1. [vegetarian](/r/vegetarian)
* [vegetarianism](/r/vegetarianism)
* [veg recipes](/r/VegRecipes/)
1. [vegan recipes](/r/veganrecipes/)
* [vegetarian_food](/r/vegetarian_food)
* [Vegetarian ketoers](/r/vegetarianketo/)
* [vegents](/r/vegents) - vegan ents (/r/trees)
* [Debate A Vegan](/r/DebateAVegan)
* [Vegan Circlejerk](/r/vegancirclejerk/)
* [Veg Austin](/r/VegAustin/)
* [raw food reddit](/r/RawFoodReddit/)
* [raw](/r/raw) - for raw food
1. [food2: organic & sustainable food](/r/food2/)
* [organic](/r/organic)
* [Herblore](/r/Herblore) - growing, mythology, medicinal & culinary uses
* [salads](/r/salads)
* [juicing](/r/juicing)
For a comprehensive list of food-related reddits, see the [list of food reddits](http://www.reddit.com/r/redditlists/comments/hrhxi/some_foodrelated_reddits/).
|
4 | So, I just wandered into this subreddit and I think it's a neat concept. Even if it does look a bit inactive.
My question is this:
Has anyone here with strong opinions about meat eating or veganism ever participated in the killing of an animal for food? If so, what species and how did it affect your views?
To start things off, I am a meat eater. I grew up on a small farm hand raising calves, lambs, chickens, and pigs. I have personally killed chickens and assisted with the others. Although I often loved the animals I raised, my stance on eating meat was never affected by my experiences. |
5 | Stress and Meat Quality - not looking to argue, just wondering what a vegan's take on this is. Conclusion: if animals cared about being locked up in cages, the meat quality would be too gross to eat. |
6 | (x-post) An Example of Non-Factory Farm Meat Production. Do we want to discuss this? |
7 | I told my friends at work (during our typical lunchtime food debates) that if any of them shot any animals (went hunting), that I would no longer be their friend anymore. HR told me that was an "extreme" thing to say. I replied that I felt it was "extreme" for people to shoot animals. |
8 | So, before you jump to the comment box and yell at me, please bear in mind that I am an ethical vegan and I am just playing devil advocate here. I am asking the real, central question to our cause: why should someone care.
I would like to hear your reasons why someone should care about animals and I will try to refute them as if I disagreed. |
9 | what's your favorite food/meal? |
10 | Me and my dad hunt, we avoid eating any of the factory farmed preservative garbage. All of our food is organic and SUPER FREE RANGE. We try to make our kills as fast and painless as possible and we don't waste any meat. |
11 | There's not much debate going on here and I'm quite interested in some change of perspective stuff, so, dear vegans:
What would be your top 3 reasons to no be a vegan?
For me, it looks like this:
1. I really, really like the taste of well-prepared meat
2. Would be so much more comfortable for my family as well as for myself (yay! no more reading labels! no more asking and searching!)
3. I think that veeery small amounts of meat actually contribute to a healthy diet.
I tried really hard but couldn't find any ethical arguments *(might be the reason I'm vegan)* - maybe you can? |
12 | I was wondering if these were considered animal products for you. Also how would you feel if a horse was used to plow a field to plant vegetables, are those vegetables semi animal products? Thanks. |
13 | Lets discuss this... |
14 | For many animals, if it is raised in an healthy environment that meets their physical/mental needs, I don't think that animal suffers. If after a while that animal is humanely killed and its body is used as food and other products, I don't see that as so terrible. Here's why...
Animals have sentience (feel pain), but I think many species' brains are not physiologically capable of supporting higher consciousness (self recognition, anticipation of the future, introspection). I believe our obligations to another being is affected to some degree by that being's level of mental capacity. (E.g. it is wrong to verbally abuse a person, but it's ok to insult my dog in a normal voice all day. The person can understand, so is hurt, so I have a duty not to do that. The dog doesn't have the mental capacity to understand, so there is no duty to not insult him/her. My understanding is that animals mostly experience life "in the moment" and so depriving them of a future by killing them for food isn't taking anything away from them. If humanely done and the animal's body is fully used, I think it's generally ok.
Oh, and obviously this position means I don't think ALL meat eating is ok. Dolphins, chimpanzees, maybe elephants seem to have a higher mental capacity, so might be immoral to kill. Also, I'm leaning more towards accepting pigs and maybe cows into that category too. However, it does leave fish and chickens as permissible to kill for food, IMO.
What do you think?
P.S.: I would LOVE to have any resources about animal mental capacity if anyone has some, because obviously I could be wrong and this is basically the core of my moral opinion that eating meat can (if done respectfully/humanely) be acceptable.
Inspired by: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1q79up/meateaters_of_reddit_how_would_you_rationally/ |
15 | Playing devil's advocate here: do you think there are limits to which animals have rights? It seems to be a central philosophy of veganism (and PETA) that all animals should have human consideration to minimize their suffering, but are there limits to that consideration?
If your house has a termite infestation, is it okay to fumigate it to kill them all so the house doesn't fall down? What if a tiger is attacking you, is it okay to shoot it before it kills you? If it is okay, can you then use their hide to make clothes? What about eating any part of it so it doesn't just go to waste?
Also, as a side question for any vegan pet owners, do you take any special considerations to make sure you feed your pets vegan diets? Is that even possible with some animals, like cats, and if not, do you think that means that you are promoting some form of animal cruelty in order to keep a pet that you like better? |
16 | If i find a dead deer on the side of the road and take it home and cook it am I wrong? |
17 | Vegan Ethics and Carnivorous Pets |
18 | What puzzles me about the ethics of veganism is that it seems to be drawing as much of an arbitrary line when it comes to the rights of animals as any other diet.
Any reasonable level of human life on earth surely depends on large scale agriculture (and nowadays urbanisation too). The landscape of most countries has been fundamentally shaped by humans optimising it for the production of food, fibres, timber and the rest of it. Controlling the environment in this way leads to catastrophic losses of habitat for some animals, and pest control is often necessary to protect the crops grown. In my eyes a vegan diet may result in fewer animals killed directly for food, but many animals die or will never be born due to civilization regardless of wether meat is eaten. So how is this distinction so important?
Do most vegans just accept this tension? Or am I missing something with this argument? |
19 | Why? What is the difference between eating prawns and exterminating roaches infesting your home? Both involve organisms with nervous systems, and arguably the latter activity involves more pain on the part of the organisms involved.
Why do prawns have a greater right to life than roaches? |
20 | So there's an amazing milkshake place in my city. You choose flavours from this really extensive menu and they can give you soya milk/ice cream at a slightly higher price. I went once before I was vegan and got soy instead of dairy just because I like it, but the flavour I went with was turkish delight bars, so definitely not vegan. Strangely they offered to prepare it in their special vegan zone, but I declined.
Anyways I wanna go back but the only flavour I see on this [menu](http://shakeaway.com/MilkshakeMenu/NewMenu.aspx) which I know to be vegan is oreos. There are also fruit flavours, (lime soy milkshake? I'm kind of curious...) but I'd love to know if you guys can identify other vegan confections I could go for. Any ideas? :) |
21 | Continuing from [THIS](http://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/2l3r0n/got_a_new_dog_today_shes_the_first_of_ours_that/clswa57) discussion with /u/KerSan.
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> A person on a diet may feel hungry and does indeed need to eat, but they don't need to eat cake.
Picking up from this area of discussion;
This largely comes down to balance. While it isn't healthy to eat cake all the time, neither is it healthy to eat only lettuce or only steak. They *all* have nutritional benefits and eating in balanced moderation is healthy. Yes, you can eat a vegan diet in a responsible manner just the same as you can eat an omnivorous diet and maintain your health.
> You can probably guess how I'd continue from that to saying why steak does indeed constitute murder
That depends on the definition of murder. If murder applies to just all-around killing for anything other than self defense, then swatting a mosquito is murder. But if we go by this definition:
> Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human, and generally this premeditated state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide
And ignore the human part of that sentence, then eating steak is not an unlawful act. Therefore, it is not murder. It may be murder to *you* but not in the eyes of the law. Even the term homicide does not apply (the act of a human deliberately and unlawfully killing another human) due to the act not being unlawful.
So, by legal definition, while the animal was *killed*, it was not *murdered*.
While I can understand your being against the *killing* of an animal due to personal moral and ethical stance, to say the animal was murdered is to label something outside of its definition.
If every animal that was killed was *murdered* and we, as sentient beings, were guilty of such an act, what prevents us from saying other sentient animals have committed murder? What level of sentience (if you feel sentience can be measured) does an animal need to exhibit in order to be guilty of the acts a human is held accountable for, *especially* since it is already argued that animals deserve the same rights and freedoms that we have. If they deserve our freedoms, aren't they also guilty when they commit crimes? |
22 | So I had an interesting run-in with another vegan today. He's a vegan but he hunts deer. Not for sport or profit but conservation. You see here in Ohio (USA) we have a very large deer population and we killed out all their natural predetors a long time ago so the local government(s) encourage deer hunting to thin their numbers. The guy I talked was talking about how if they didn't do that they would become over populated and starve. It basically boiled down to the "Kill one, save a thousand". I'm just wondering people's thoughts on this |
23 | What is wrong with using animals for food, clothing, etc. if it is done humanely? |
24 | So, I get killing animals and eating meat. I get milk and cow exploitation. But I seriously just don't understand how harvesting honey in a sustainable way is a morally wrong act. Yes, we're "profiting off the labor of those insects" but we people profit off the labor of other people too, and nobody seems to care about that?
In my understanding, you can harvest honey from a hive in a way that maybe sets them back a bit, but the hive is overall fine. They just make more and keep on going.
What is the rationale for eating honey being a morally wrong act?
EDIT: So I'm noticing a lack of arguments for why eating honey is immoral. So I'll make an argument why eating honey is not immoral:
1. Bees will make honey as a natural manifestation of their genetics/nature.
2. It is possible to harvest honey in a way that hives can still survive and maintain themselves
3. Bees do not have an understanding/consciousness of their honey being taken away (they are not resentful or angry or any other similar reaction, to their honey being taken)
4. Humans are benefited by honey
Therefore: it's ok to eat honey.
(Yes, this is very raw and probably not a good argument, but at least it is a defined thought and present reasons)
I've posted here before, I'm very open to opinions and discussion. But I really want to hear the REASONS that eating honey is wrong. |
25 | Of all the issues I have with vegans (mostly social ones) I have a lot of trouble understanding how one goes about reaching the vegan ideology logically in that **nature isn't vegan**.
Carnivores and omnivores have existed longer than humans as a species, so why would humans, an omnivore, go against their nature?
I argue that the vegan ideology is anti nature in concept.
**My View**
In my opinion: Nature is the reaction of chemicals which fuel the movement of objects in space and with that:
1. Nature continues and is run by cycles.
2. The ending of a cycle is due to it being interrupted by another cycle with specific characteristics which undo the former cycle.
3. Cycles that make up nature interact and form larger communities.
4. The end of a cycle is not the end of that part of nature but simply a change in what nature is.
5. Nature will not end until all cycles have ceased without being inherited by a larger cycle.
What I take from this:
1. Nature has is from the big bang to the animal world.
2. Changes in nature have insured that life competes for resources.
3. Human follow their cycle as omnivores.
4. By purposefully not following the cycle of consuming animals, a human would go against nature's cycle of humans. |
26 | Many of these species have been breed so as to only be viable within a human farming.
They have been evolved under human pressures so as to specifically maximize meat production.
There is a reason why you don't see wild cows anymore. The species is only viable within human captivity.
What do vegans plan to do with all the domesticated animals?
If they truly weren't viable, would extinction really be preferable to harvesting them?
Would Vegans set up a special zoo to slowly breed (or genetically modify) them for reintegration with natural ecosystems? |
27 | I'm pro-choice on abortion politically because I think the consequences of the ban are worse than the act itself, but I'll admit that it makes me very uncomfortable, and given the choice for myself only, I probably wouldn't go through with it, especially if armed with scientific knowledge that at a certain point it must cause pain.
Obviously, this wouldn't question wouldn't be a problem in the cases of extremely early term abortions, but at a certain point within the woman's womb the forming child's faculties far exceed that of many animals that vegans would refuse to eat for moral reasons.
I feel this question is "trickiest" for individuals who are both fervently pro-abortion and fervently vegan, since in both cases you are weighing the decision of a single actor with regard to either a lower or equal being (depending on your subjective hierarchy if you are a utilitarian).
A woman deciding whether to eat meat or abort in the second trimester often faces a very similar tradeoff between a (lesser?) being's pleasure and their own.
I am interested from the moral/personal/ethical standpoint of you making the decision for yourself. I think this question is difficult for any moral framework (e.g. Deontology, Kantian, virtue, consequentialist utilitarian, whatever). Is the sacrifice of another being's life worth the convenience/pleasure that the action would add to your own? How do your personal (not political) views on abortion and veganism relate with one another?
Interested in the replies.
**Note: As I said earlier, I'm really not interested in the political/legal framework. Enforcing a ban on both abortion services and meat consumption tomorrow would have horrible unintended consequences in the same way as one another, often stemming from mass civil disobedience. What I am interested in is your own personal ethical outlook.** |
28 | That's my question. Pests = mice, rats; that will chew through things and poop on your stuff. This is a health hazard. |
29 | We polled almost 1,000 18- to 35-year-olds about their attitudes on sex on the first date and whether they've actually done it! 6XABuT |
30 | I've been on and off vegan. Cows and pigs seem intelligent enough.
And I do think the value of a life correlates with intelligence.
I'm unsure of chickens, so would side with "not ok to eat" to be safe.
Before someone inevitably brings it up, I do think mentally challenged people are an obvious burden on society. And if autism and most forms of mental retardation could be completely prevented I see zero reason on why that would be a bad thing.
But at the same time protecting your own species should be #1 on your priority list. So outright murdering your own species seems like a huge grievance.
I have this gross suspicion that some vegans literally value a human child's life and a cockroaches or stray cat's life as equal.
And I just can't accept that.
I know bees are endangered, I know overfishing is contributing to pollution. But why not eat crabs? Or lobsters? Or oysters?
Have you seen them swarm in millions of numbers at the bottom of the ocean? Or that they eat each other when food is scarce?
Why on earth is a bug's life valuable?
I saw a post on vegan about how salmon can get depressed and just rolled my eyes. They may be able to feel physical pain but they can't suffer existentially. Suffer psychologically. I only care about animals up to a certain point, not really in a black or white way.
I had an extremely intelligent eel, there are intelligent marine creatures I wouldn't eat like octopuses, but most are not.. and the only reason I would avoid eating bass or trout is the overfishing problem. But there are charts to show which fish are "safe to eat" currently. And farmed fish may cause pollution. But if I can't stick to being vegan completely and keep breaking, isn't eating only some sea creatures better than eating all food animals? |
31 | Its known that some areas have very thin and low quality soil, are arid, and people in these areas generally herd goats, sheep and other types of animals because humans can't eat the grass there. As we know, grains and root vegetables don't grow everywhere.
What do vegans think about those kinds of situations? I mean it's not difficult to eat vegetarian in damp tropical climates but most people don't live in those areas. |
32 | If the goal of veganism is to reduce suffering and/or deaths, then the way to reduce this to zero woukd be to kill all life, thus eleminating suffering, or to commit suicide, thus taking a single life more and causing the fewest deaths.
If we accept that killing the planet and suicide are not a morally or ethically feasible goal to have, as well as wonton destruction and killing for the sake of it, as is the opposite extreme, then I do not think that one can argue that what causes the least amount of harm or death is the most moral option. So because of this, wouldn't arguing that veganism is morally superior because it causes the fewest amount of suffering and death, which is arguable for consumerist veganidm, not work unless you accept one of these extremes since the defense of veganism is harm or death reduction? |
33 | Best Speech Ever Commentary |
34 | Is it wrong to eat meat? |
35 | What the fuck is your answer to that |
36 | eating meat means animals more are brought in world and they're more happy than sad over life therefore it's good to eat meat? |
37 | I say internet because no vegan has said this to me in real life, so I don't mean all vegans.
This seems to come from a single source, a talk from. Dr. Milton Mills in which he cherry picks aninals to make humans match up to an herbivore. Alternatively it will say frugivore instead of herbivore, but the reasoning is the same. |
38 | Why must we avoid actions that causes death and suffering to animals? |
39 | Do Vegans who believe humans should not eat animals dislike carnivores? Or animals which are omnivores? Because if you think about it it's pretty similar to say a hunter shooting their dinner. |
40 | I've read a lot of vegans on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube and come to the conclusion that the aggressive, ALF supporters maybe bad for veganism as a whole. Sub genres of vegans show up when supermeat is mentioned or when dietary habits of dogs and cats are enquired. Gary Yourofsky's comments on the Nepal earthquake were diabolical. However, he did do one good speech, but that's kind of where I stopped listening to him. Personally, I'm cutting back animal products, with the research and knowledge I have gathered off my own back. I still occasionally consume fish, eggs and cheese. I do drink soya and almond milk nowadays. I'm in a stronger position to be vegetarian, despite the hatred it gathers from the vegan community, as it's often "worse than meat" to many abolitionist vegans on facebook. This may make absolutely no sense to any of you as I'm writing off a phone (oh, naughty). The gist is, I admire the ethical stand point of vegans, I can even understand the anger that comes from it, but I think the more aggressive and outspoken in the community will turn people away. I am much more thoughtful when searching for food, mainly veggie and vegan. I often visit vegan places as I enjoy seeing the alternatives.
TL;DR: Aggressive Vegans on social media, MIGHT be hindering the movement.
Edit: I enjoy vegan and vegetarian food. I find little delights in finding them out and about. Feel free too shoot me down, but I'm complimenting you guys. |
41 | I have seen a hash tag that asks people to name the traits that if absent in a human would allow them to be eaten. If a person doesn't have an answer then the conclusion says if we cannot name a trait we must not eat animals and thus are morally obligated to be vegan.
However, if I were to say the same thing about the law, that the law applies to humans and no trait a person could lack would make them free from human law, then the conclusion would be that we are obligated to hold animals to human law.
I could also be cheeky and say sentience and. Excuse saying if a human lacks sentience it is OK to eat them doesn't mean all animals with sentience cannot be eaten.
I personally do not feel there is a situation where it would be morally justifiable to murder and eat a human. That, however doesn't apply to all non-humans as my example with the law helps to demonstrates. This argument essentially is little more than a false equivalence. |
42 | I'm not here to debate in the sense to get you to agree with me nor have you get me to agree with you. (i'm stubborn)
But my reasoning for us to eat animal products is because we need vitamin B12. there's no other place to get it. The only place i find is 'fortified' food. which means before technology we would not have the luxury of being vegan, which means our bodies are technically made to be meat eaters, or at least animal product eaters, no? |
43 | no they don't see we got to the top of the food chain fair and square morality is an illusion and if morality does exist it's more moral kill them because you gave them a purpose give humans meat and you fulfilled that purpose by killing them animals have the privilege of being born with a purpose no I'm not a sociopath I'm autistic so at least you get the neurological disorder correct |
44 | My choosing to stop eating meat will have no impact on the number of animals that suffer during the process of meat production. Giant meat corporations will, obviously, not adjust their supply of meat based on the changes in demand of one individual consumer. Even if tomorrow I were to renounce all animal products, the same number of animals will continue to suffer at the hands of meat producers.
Thus, there is no reason for me to stop enjoying a meat diet seeing as it improves my life and happiness.
Discuss. |
45 | (This is a throwaway account.) I wanted to post in /r/Vegan but I wasn't sure if it's allowed. I understand why people are vegan, but as much as I want to say I also want to be a vegan "for the animals," I can't find a connection within myself to care?
I've watched so many videos on the meat/dairy/egg industry, and about how animals are slaughtered, and I still can't find an emotional connection to these animals. In my head, I merely think, "Many societies were able to grow and thrive because of their access to sustenance via meat/dairy/eggs/animal products."
Additionally I had to dissect frogs and other animals in university, and I wasn't creeped out or disgusted by it, it was just purely a scientific exercise. I don't know if this is because I'm crazy, or because I'm trained to remove my emotions when it comes to suffering. I don't know.
I have a plant-based diet, but I feel so detached from "caring about animals." I feel that in order to be truly vegan, I should be just as passionate about animals and life as everyone else, but I'm not, and it makes me feel guilty.
I need someone to talk to. I watch so many people on yt talk about how passionate they are about animals, and I want to say that I care that much too, but it just feels like I'm lying.
Edit:
Thank you everyone for you responses. I guess I never really thought about "it's ok to just choose this lifestyle," even if I don't necessarily have the same reasons as other people. I don't really have any vegan friends to talk to about things, so it was nice to get your input. |
46 | I came here just for a second opinion on what I think on veganism.
I just think that it's unhealthy to not eat anything from animals or plants.
You need to take nutrients from other things to survive.
Plus,I think the increased meat production can feed a lot of people who don't get enough food,and it would be bad to decrease production. |
47 | **OVERVIEW**
Hi, /r/DebateAVegan! I'm not really here for a fight, but I am truly curious about how you guys feel about The Vegan Stigma and evangelizing veganism. I come from a place of 100% respect and I value your opinions and values.
As some background, here are some of my views:
- I'm currently an "omni"
- I *don't think* that animal farms are bad/unnatural *in and of themselves*
- I *don't think* that "omni" diets are bad (I mostly believe in balance)
- I *do think* that factory farms have abhorrent laws and practices
- I *do think* that, all in all, local farms run a more ethical business, but they still sell animals to other farmers and slaughterhouses, so they aren't perfect
- I *do think* that slaughterhouse laws and practices are archaic
- I *do think* that the environmental effects of farms are __hugely__ detrimental
HOWEVER, here is the thing. I feel pretty similar to [this redditor](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/52oqmb/i_hate_being_vegan/) in that I'm terrified of associating myself with The Vegan Stigma. If I was going to commit myself to this diet, I feel like that it's something that I really need to feel strongly about and be 100% completely unashamed of it.
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**THE VEGAN STIGMA AND FREELEE THE BANANA GIRL**
I feel like veganism has a stigma attached to it because, when you say you're a vegan, people will feel like you're challenging their lifestyle and you may be labelled as pretentious. At least for me, when I encountered a vegan I felt... guilty. Like my meat-eating and dairy-eating habits were being challenged. So, I could see why a lot of people respond to that with anger instead of inquisitiveness. Because, honestly, people *really* don't like to change, and they *really* don't like feeling like they are unethical/animal abusers/environment destroyers/unhealthy eaters.
SO, this is where freelee comes in. I know, I know, a lot of vegans and non-vegans alike think that she's a poisonous lech, but hear me out. Freelee is unapologetically vegan. She evangelizes that shit like a Jehovah's Witness. Her approach is, in my opinion, uncompassionate and narcissistic, BUT, that girl gets the clicks! You may hate that she's associated with the movement and that many people are turned off to veganism by her, but... even though I really don't agree with her methods... I feel like telling people "you can eat whatever you want, no problem grrrl" won't get people to change their habits. People usually don't change unless something extreme happens in their life (like getting super angry at this random vegan chick).
__I will emphasize here that I think freelee should rethink a lot of her methods and [catty, juvenile responses](http://freeleebananagirl.tumblr.com/post/141860995345/erin-janus-just-wrote-this-freelee-has-become)__, but what I am saying here is that she is clearly not ashamed of being vegan and says some brutally honest things to force people to take a hard look at their lifestyle.
If I committed to a vegan lifestyle, I would want to be unapologetically vegan and be happy to give my curious friends and family the cold hard facts about the meat and dairy industry *if and only if they asked*, but I wouldn't want to be as aggressive as freelee and come off as a poisonous bully.
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**HOW TO BE UNAFRAID OF THE STIGMA**
I really don't want to adopt this lifestyle if I'm ashamed to be associated with it. Given that it's something that is pretty controversial, the only way that the mainstream culture will accept it is if there are more people who are openly vegan without being a pushy asshole about it. There have to be more people who are unapologetic and proud to be vegan.
So, how do you develop this confidence?
A couple of ideas that I had is:
- Narrow down why I believe in it and have citations/statistics from reputable sources to back it up.
- Make friends with people who are vegan
I don't think that will be enough, though.
Although the citations will give me confidence in what I believe, they may not give me the confidence to deal with the people who feel threatened/angry by a vegan lifestyle. I try to avoid conflict in my life if at all possible, but dietary needs is just one of those things that you can't keep private. Friends throw parties. Mothers bake birthday cakes. Employers invite their co-workers for drinks. Saying something like "I don't eat dairy" or "no thanks, I'm not hungry" avoids conflict, but who wants to walk on eggshells about something that is such a big part of their life?
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**IF YOU ARE AN ETHICAL* VEGAN, THEN SHOULDN'T YOU EVANGELIZE?**
_*animal abuse or environmental_
With all of that being said, I have a lot of mixed feelings about evangelism. I feel like attraction is more compassionate and less pushy than promotion, but it moves a lot slower. I do believe that nobody should ever be forced to do anything that they don't want to, so perhaps I'll rephrase the question:
_If you are an ethical vegan, then wouldn't the ethical thing to do is to promote your beliefs?_
I feel like, honestly, a single person removing animal products from their diet doesn't change much, but if that single person could get their SO, family, and friends to remove animal products from their diet, then that would most definitely impact the industry. That being said... I would imagine that being That Vegan that shows up to Thanksgiving with pictures of slaughterhouses is not really ideal as that just creates conflict and distance.
So, what do you guys think? What's the happy medium?
-----------------------------
**IN CONCLUSION**
I really appreciate you guys reading this and taking the time to respond. I don't know anybody very well that is vegan or even vegetarian, so I truly value hearing your thoughts without fear of criticism for considering a vegan diet.
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48 | I don't really see the pros of veganism. Convince me why veganism is better than other diets, and why I should go vegan. |
49 | I've been very passionate about the vegan lifestyle for 10 years, but recently I've been bothered by something....owning pets. Not necessarily the idea of having a pet, but that if you own a cat or dog, for example, you must feed them meat. This results in continuing the support of the meat industry. Can we start encouraging our fellow vegans to not own any carnivorous or omnivorous animals? It is just very hypocritical to speak out against the horrors of the meat industry when we have pets that eat those abused animals. |
50 | "Don't ask me why I'm vegan, ask yourself why you aren't." :P |
51 | A little dose of fun. 5 things why Vegans are awesome |
52 | I've been researching on veganism and vegetarianism, and to me, they really don't make sense. First of all, isn't veganism still killing plants, which are living beings? And what about the fungus and bacteria being killed in bathrooms while they are being cleaned. And isn't the natural order that meat should be eaten. For example, omnivores eat meat as well as plants. Carnivores eat meat. This is the natural order, isn't it? These are just thoughts, so please, be civilized. |
53 | Humans evolved the way we are because of meat. Without it, we would not exist. Why should I stop eating meat now? It provides a majority of the nutrients my body needs to function in one convenient package. (I am using package loosely, I know meat comes from animals.) |
54 | Without using ethical arguments, why vegan over vegetarian? |
55 | I'm not vegan but I love animals and have the utmost respect for those who choose the vegan lifestyle. I'm curious to hear thoughts from those who are vegan/vegetarian on working in fast food or restaurant service.
Would you work for a restaurant/food joint that's main courses are meat? Would a hostess job be lesser of the two over a cook? How would that feel to serve people the animals you love for a living? Is it against your morals/veganism to work for a company that exploits and profits off of animals? If not, would you consider it if it were the only employment option in your area?
This is an ethical dilemma that I've been thinking about when considering going to a vegan lifestyle and I would love hear the pros and cons, thank you! |
56 | Hello people who are vegan for different reasons :) , i wanted to ask if you think less of people who eat meat? If so, what do you think of them? If not, how come? |
57 | Vegas, a lot of your arguments are great, but I think it breaks down when it comes to attacking thd "Plants are alive too" argument. You say that you draw the line at sentient living things. So plants don't count. You do realize how arbitrary this is, right? There's no reason or logic behind it, that's just how YOU think it should be. I think it makes more sense to take an agnostic approach. All morality is subjective, but some moralistic philosophies are more arbitrary than others. This is where we have to take a neutral position. Such as abortion. Some people will say life starts at conception and we should honor that life just because. And by the way, semen doesn't count because it's not alive yet. This is also completely arbitrary. I don't think we should put down others who believe in it either. Their morality is their own and we shouldn't push ours on theirs. There shouldn't be any laws against it because it's so arbitrary though.
Also, take this argument. Think if aliens come right now and harvest us like we harvest meat. They bred us like we breed meat. Sure, we'd rather they don't kill us right now, but would we really rather they had not started to breed us at all? Then we would never be born! I'm sure we would rather a shortened life rather than no life at all.
The fact is that life doesn't really matter anyway. We have laws to protect ourselves from extinction, because extinction affects us, because we think our lives matter. We have laws because if we didn't our lives would be worse, not because life inherently matters, that's just an illusion. That wouldn't apply to animals because we don't really need them to survive. You can make an argument that going vegan is better for the environment and therefore in our best interest, but that's different than declaring the sanctity of all life. When we die we go back to like it was before we were born. None of this actually matters, we're just coasting along for the ride.
You could say people are being unethical by forgetting to recycle their coffee cup from Starbucks, but it's not very realistic because each individual contributes very little to harming the environment, but it's only as a whole that we are harming it. That's why we need government to stop it.
Anyway, thanks for humoring me. |
58 | /u/IlII4 requested user flairs, so I've enabled those. Please let me know if you think we need more options.
I have also disabled link posts. Looking at the submission history, it appears these posts tend to be off-topic and generally do not generate a lot of discussion. Linking to external content is of course still allowed, but you're now expected to wrap them in a self post and to describe what it is that you would like to discuss.
Finally, comment scores are now hidden for 20 hours to reduce bandwagon effects.
Other suggestions and feedback are welcome. |
59 | Excluding humans. |
60 | Sounds stupid but I have a rather important question and the crux of the argument relies on vegans not eating snails.
In the end vegans (who choose not to eat/use animal based products because of their disagreement with harming animals) will still eat a salad.
This salad could be made from leaves which have been surrounded with pest killing devices or chemicals and it would not be considered harming an animal by the majority of vegans (otherwise they would refuse to eat most vegetables).
All kinds of tangential arguments could be made about this, an example being "if none of the animals are killed, is keeping an animal from food which it requires to live considered cruel?" and other such arguments.
TL;DR If a vegan chooses to eat food which has been deliberately farmed so pests such as snails may die as a direct result, would killing snails and eating them be different? if so how? |
61 | The meat industry, if only ethical farming practices are used, essentially allows for more happy animals to live than would be possible without a demand for meat. More happiness in the world, I would consider a good. What response would you have to a person that only eats meat that comes from sustainable ethical farming practices?
I don't see a good way out of answering yes to the question in the title and not saying eating meat in this way is ethical. |
62 | Allow me to emphasize: This is a moral question, not an ethical question. I am not asking if it is moral to kill an animal for it's meat. I am not asking if it is immoral to harm an animal for it's meat. I am asking if, in your personal purviews, of course, is it immoral, by the simple fact, to eat meat.
I would assume that it would be considered moral, for example, to eat an unfertilized egg if there was no harm done to the animal. After all, chickens produce excess eggs naturally; they do not need them all. By the same extension, I would assume that it would be considered moral to drink excess milk that a cow (or other mammal, sure) produces, provided that the calves receive the milk they need, and the cow was not artificially inseminated, and so on. If there is no mistreatment of animal life, it should seem moral to eat animal by-products if there was no harm perpetrated onto the animals producing those by-products. If you have a debate for these notions, by all means, present them. I am genuinely curious!
What is different about meat? If an animal dies in a way we could not prevent, like accident or incurable malady, would it be immoral to eat the meat leftover? Would it be immoral to use it's bones to produce gelatin or make a broth? Would it be immoral to tan it's skin for leather? If an unweaned calf died, would it be immoral to use it's stomach to produce rennet, and then produce cheese?
Is simple use of the animal's body after it's death immoral by that fact alone? Is it immoral to just eat meat?
Thanks.
(Note: I am not a vegan, but I am looking into it, but it is complicated.) |
63 | Why do you think suffering is "bad"? |
64 | Most ethical arguments i hear about veganism are about "causing unnecessary suffering". Non-vegans then say that it's still better for animals to have a horrible life than no life at all, and the vegan argument is that you can't ask a non-existent animal if it would rather exist. The counter argument to this is that humans do the exact same thing with babies but then again without reproduction our own species would go extinct. In the end i feel like the discussion just got back to talking about the terrible living conditions and the suffering. But what if animals couldn't feel pain, just like plants can't? If we were able to genetically engineer animals without the ability to feel pain, would you be fine with exploiting and eating them? |
65 | Just an FYI
So that's not really a talking point anymore
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/prince-edward-island/pei-cow-farting-1.3856202 |
66 | I want to get to a point in my life where all my meat is derived from animals that I hunt, I want to get as far away from factory farming as possible and remove myself from perpetuating that industry. How do vegans view this?
I understand that the most common argument I hear against this is that you want to reduce animal suffering which as a hunter I will be reducing their overall suffering, animals in the wild do not die of old age. They are eaten alive by predators. If an elk or deer is caught by a pack of wolves, the wolves take it down and begin eating immediately, asshole and stomach first. They go for the softest parts and eat inwards from there, the amount of suffering from this is unimaginable. If they could understand and make the decision, I'm quite certain they would choose dying a very very quick death from a rifle bullet rather than being torn apart and eaten alive slowly. What thoughts do vegans have on this type of ideology? |
67 | How do you guys feel about trapping? Where I live in northern Alberta trapping is a way of life for many people, and I wholeheartedly support it. I'm actually wearing a pair of rabbit skin moccasins right now lol. I haven't heard of anyone who doesn't support it so I'm just curious to hear what some of you have to say. |
68 | Curious how vegans feel about eating insects and fungus...
Intentional and incidental :D
If fungus angle is weird, mycelium (mushrooms) can solve mazes with more accuracy and problem solving prowess than people can. Paul Stammets a leading mycologist as well as peers in the scientific community, are having trouble (cant) disproving mycelium is sentient... intelligently solving mazes with numerous red herrings designed to fool or mislead senses. Anyways, it wouldnt surprise me whatsoever in the near future for it to be common knowledge fungus is sentient.
i dont know many vegans, the ones i do want me to know, and are evangelists and annoying. I do however notice they dont seem to put any effort into de-bugging organic produce. once i brought a bunch of blackberries i grew to work. a vegan guy at work ate a lot without washing them... despite a large note i left warning these are yard fruits, no pesticides, insects may live in them... o well :x made me wonder
So... how do vegans feel about eating things with faces or smart things with no faces? |
69 | http://i.imgur.com/QFUBMcy.gifv
btw i'm vegan myself but really wondering. please try to see the principle in my question and don't attach too much to this very example. thanks ahead.
EDIT : animal a eats animal b - what do i gain by not eating animal a in terms of not killing animals ?
Edit 2 : cows eat chicken https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPa-NetXeUk
deer eating bird https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQOQdBLHrLk
i could add more. |
70 | Just want to hear people's opinion on the matter. Is it ok to force your children to be vegan? Like lets say they really want to eat foods from the cafeteria like the other kids or some other similar situation in which they want to consume a non vegan food. If you believe that eating animals is a terribly wrong act you should stop them right? I do not have a position nor do I have children.
edit
Some people are not getting my point and I apologize for not making it clear. My point is that this is not the same as giving your child the choice to do drugs, consume unhealthy foods, as those decisions mainly impact them whereas choosing to consume animal product more importantly impacts the animal that was murdered for it. I hope that makes sense, I'm not the best with explanations. |
71 | Hello! I am not a vegan myself but do respect anyone that can maintain the diet. Personally I find meat and dairy to be more like a soda, cigarette, or alcohol. An indulgence? A vice? Anyway, I also recognize the huge amount of resources necessary to raise live stock compared to vegan options. It's something that relates to my question actually.
Regarding the future question: Synthetic meat will be likely coming down in price and be of similar pricing to the real thing in the future. I'm talking lab grown steaks that are indistinguishable from the real thing. This is assuming no animal would be harmed. I know a few things have happened in a lab but the price is astronomica currentlyl.
Is this something that would be acceptable to eat? Why or why not? I imagine the vegans that do it for health reasons wouldn't apply here. I am likely wrong on that, too.
Looking forward to some responses, thanks! |
72 | https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/5kwfps/dont_make_fun_of_omnivores_they_have_a_hard_life/?st=1Z141Z3&sh=f15c5351
Tell me which part are serious and I'll be happy to debate them with you :) |
73 | Sorry I don't know how to word it exactly but I was curious if what I'm growing is vegan. I use animal manure, and sometimes other animal products like ground bone instead of chemical fertilizers. Does this make the veggies I'm growing not vegan? |
74 | Is it to eventually have a majority or everyone become vegan?
Is it to minimize harm done to animals?
What is the big picture is what I'm asking. :)
Edit: well everyone, it's been a pleasure discussing with you all, I'm going to bed now but will reply more in the morning, thank you all for your insights, and the most convincing topic I ran into was not about the animals themselves, but how bad the meat industry is for the environment, can't really argue with that point, so even if people don't agree with the "save the animals" aspect of veganism, the environmental aspect can't be denied, thanks again and good night! :) |
75 | Just curious. |
76 | I seem to find that vegans typically become vegan for either three reasons; Environmental, ethical, or for health.
I'm not looking to discuss the health reasons, but I'm curious to know about the other two (or other reasons). My question is, how does your view of modern, controlled hunting fit into this?
It's well known to ecologists that hunting provides benefits the the environment. Species like deer take up more resources than their environment's carrying capacity allows, which is where population control is necessary to prevent long-term harm.
I would personally argue that overpopulation also creates ethical issues. It causes more starvation and competition over resources, and causes a wider spread of disease, leading to an unhealthy population.
What are your thoughts on this? |
77 | I'll preface this with the fact that I'm in between a vegetarian and vegan for ethical reasons, with some more extremist views but some other very conservative views on animal rights/welfare issues.
I've been pursuing /r/vegan for a while and I keep seeing lots of anti-honey views. I'm not 100% sure on exactly why bees are dying out but wouldn't supporting honey help save the bees by at least keeping the demand for them up?
Obviously it's not an ideal way to save the bees but even zoos have programs to save endangered/extinct species with the potential to releasee them and save the species in the wild. So worst case scenario we could keep bees in captivity and release them when conditions are favorable for their success.
EDIT: Thanks for all the replies! Definitely helpful, I obviously understand the harm in taking honey away from bees and I understand most bees don't make honey. I think my point was that if we lose bees we lose their pollinating ability and captive honey bees could aid in that regard. But like others said even without supporting honey it's unlikely we'll ever lose honey bees.
|
78 | First off, I'm not a vegan, but I do boycott the meat and dairy industries, because of their animal rights violations, carbon emissions, water consumption, etc. Which means that I don't have a problem with eating meat and dairy, just purchasing them. However, if I go to a party and somebody else offers me meat that they already purchased, I'll eat it no problem. At that point, the animal has already been killed, and the meat has already been payed for, so eating the meat doesn't really harm anything at that point.
But I am curious. From an ethical perspective, why is it wrong to eat the meat once the damage has already been done? Eating the meat can't hurt the animal, since it's already dead, and it can't support the meat industry, since somebody else already paid for it. |
79 | So let's say that 80% of people stop eating meat. What happens when the meat industry lays off huge swaths of the workforce? Can the economy handle that many people leaving the workforce? Is an animal's well-being worth more than the families of people who work in the meat industry? We've seen what happens when industry leaves a town. |
80 | The crux of my question is whether you are a vegan because you feel it is morally good or because you feel eating animal products is morally bad. A analogous question would be do you practice christianity because you want to go to heaven or rather so you don't go to hell. I find it a tough question to ask in any situation but I think it shows internal motivation for an action. I will say I am omnivore but I absolutely accept veganism and it's ideals as completely legitimate. I'm more so curious if being a vegan conveys a certain moral high ground that I have observed a few times. |
81 | Most things you do hurt others. Every thing you consume damages the environment or other living beings. I still prefer a car and cheap products over the "good" (local) ones. Why should I stop eating meat then? |
82 | Sorry for the spam on all the other veg sub reddits, I wasn't sure how else to advertise this. I had the idea for this when someone complained about people coming to veg subreddits to troll or debate. I think this will be a good place for vegetarians like me who don't care that much about recipes, or the latest celebrity who said they might go vegan, or some chicken-torture video, but who just want to argue with someone. I've had some great arguments on lots of topics to do with eating animals, and I can't wait to see some here. |
83 | So I'm a vegan. My justification is very weak-- I'm tremendously uncomfortable with the idea of causing the suffering that goes with the production and consumption of animal products/bi-products. So I don't do it. Period. Ok, that's preaching to the choir.
Here's the problem. Veganism--it's just a great indulgence of emotions. What are these rights you speak of? Point to them! Show me they exist! Try to convince someone who doesn't have the same emotional reaction to killing that these things are "wrong." "How arrogant!" he will cry, "that you think there are ethics to back up your emotional reactions! Why, I can conjure an ethical worldview to support mine too!" (pretty sure this hypothetical person would find an Ayn Rand quote to toss in about here). In short, can anyone provide a compelling argument for the sort of ethical posturing--liberation=good, exploitation=bad--which is so often used as the basis for any esoteric justification of veganism?
As for me, if it's only an indulgence of emotions, then I'm just a damned hedonist.
So this concern is meta-ethical--not the usual fair for vegan debates--but I thought I'd toss it out there to get some chit-chat going. |
84 | Would you eat lab grown meat? If not, why not? |
85 | Here are some vegan, vegetarian, *and related* food-reddits:
1. [veg](/r/veg)
* [vegan](/r/vegan)
1. [vegetarian](/r/vegetarian)
* [vegetarianism](/r/vegetarianism)
* [veg recipes](/r/VegRecipes/)
1. [vegan recipes](/r/veganrecipes/)
* [vegetarian_food](/r/vegetarian_food)
* [Vegetarian ketoers](/r/vegetarianketo/)
* [vegents](/r/vegents) - vegan ents (/r/trees)
* [Debate A Vegan](/r/DebateAVegan)
* [Vegan Circlejerk](/r/vegancirclejerk/)
* [Veg Austin](/r/VegAustin/)
* [raw food reddit](/r/RawFoodReddit/)
* [raw](/r/raw) - for raw food
1. [food2: organic & sustainable food](/r/food2/)
* [organic](/r/organic)
* [Herblore](/r/Herblore) - growing, mythology, medicinal & culinary uses
* [salads](/r/salads)
* [juicing](/r/juicing)
For a comprehensive list of food-related reddits, see the [list of food reddits](http://www.reddit.com/r/redditlists/comments/hrhxi/some_foodrelated_reddits/).
|
86 | So, I just wandered into this subreddit and I think it's a neat concept. Even if it does look a bit inactive.
My question is this:
Has anyone here with strong opinions about meat eating or veganism ever participated in the killing of an animal for food? If so, what species and how did it affect your views?
To start things off, I am a meat eater. I grew up on a small farm hand raising calves, lambs, chickens, and pigs. I have personally killed chickens and assisted with the others. Although I often loved the animals I raised, my stance on eating meat was never affected by my experiences. |
87 | Stress and Meat Quality - not looking to argue, just wondering what a vegan's take on this is. Conclusion: if animals cared about being locked up in cages, the meat quality would be too gross to eat. |
88 | (x-post) An Example of Non-Factory Farm Meat Production. Do we want to discuss this? |
89 | I told my friends at work (during our typical lunchtime food debates) that if any of them shot any animals (went hunting), that I would no longer be their friend anymore. HR told me that was an "extreme" thing to say. I replied that I felt it was "extreme" for people to shoot animals. |
90 | So, before you jump to the comment box and yell at me, please bear in mind that I am an ethical vegan and I am just playing devil advocate here. I am asking the real, central question to our cause: why should someone care.
I would like to hear your reasons why someone should care about animals and I will try to refute them as if I disagreed. |
91 | what's your favorite food/meal? |
92 | Me and my dad hunt, we avoid eating any of the factory farmed preservative garbage. All of our food is organic and SUPER FREE RANGE. We try to make our kills as fast and painless as possible and we don't waste any meat. |
93 | There's not much debate going on here and I'm quite interested in some change of perspective stuff, so, dear vegans:
What would be your top 3 reasons to no be a vegan?
For me, it looks like this:
1. I really, really like the taste of well-prepared meat
2. Would be so much more comfortable for my family as well as for myself (yay! no more reading labels! no more asking and searching!)
3. I think that veeery small amounts of meat actually contribute to a healthy diet.
I tried really hard but couldn't find any ethical arguments *(might be the reason I'm vegan)* - maybe you can? |
94 | I was wondering if these were considered animal products for you. Also how would you feel if a horse was used to plow a field to plant vegetables, are those vegetables semi animal products? Thanks. |
95 | Lets discuss this... |
96 | For many animals, if it is raised in an healthy environment that meets their physical/mental needs, I don't think that animal suffers. If after a while that animal is humanely killed and its body is used as food and other products, I don't see that as so terrible. Here's why...
Animals have sentience (feel pain), but I think many species' brains are not physiologically capable of supporting higher consciousness (self recognition, anticipation of the future, introspection). I believe our obligations to another being is affected to some degree by that being's level of mental capacity. (E.g. it is wrong to verbally abuse a person, but it's ok to insult my dog in a normal voice all day. The person can understand, so is hurt, so I have a duty not to do that. The dog doesn't have the mental capacity to understand, so there is no duty to not insult him/her. My understanding is that animals mostly experience life "in the moment" and so depriving them of a future by killing them for food isn't taking anything away from them. If humanely done and the animal's body is fully used, I think it's generally ok.
Oh, and obviously this position means I don't think ALL meat eating is ok. Dolphins, chimpanzees, maybe elephants seem to have a higher mental capacity, so might be immoral to kill. Also, I'm leaning more towards accepting pigs and maybe cows into that category too. However, it does leave fish and chickens as permissible to kill for food, IMO.
What do you think?
P.S.: I would LOVE to have any resources about animal mental capacity if anyone has some, because obviously I could be wrong and this is basically the core of my moral opinion that eating meat can (if done respectfully/humanely) be acceptable.
Inspired by: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1q79up/meateaters_of_reddit_how_would_you_rationally/ |
97 | Playing devil's advocate here: do you think there are limits to which animals have rights? It seems to be a central philosophy of veganism (and PETA) that all animals should have human consideration to minimize their suffering, but are there limits to that consideration?
If your house has a termite infestation, is it okay to fumigate it to kill them all so the house doesn't fall down? What if a tiger is attacking you, is it okay to shoot it before it kills you? If it is okay, can you then use their hide to make clothes? What about eating any part of it so it doesn't just go to waste?
Also, as a side question for any vegan pet owners, do you take any special considerations to make sure you feed your pets vegan diets? Is that even possible with some animals, like cats, and if not, do you think that means that you are promoting some form of animal cruelty in order to keep a pet that you like better? |
98 | If i find a dead deer on the side of the road and take it home and cook it am I wrong? |
99 | Vegan Ethics and Carnivorous Pets |
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