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True
immerc
null
In that case, for you, the fact that Python doesn't lend itself to copying and pasting may not be a drawback. For other people, it is. I don't copy and paste directly into an editor then check something in. For me, the best way to understand code that's posted somewhere is to copy and paste it, then start modifying it -- throw in print statements, rename variables, re-order things. Once I've done that, I'll understand it. Different people handle programming differently, but if possible, your language shouldn't get in the way of your preferred workflow.
null
0
1316904010
False
0
c2mbzz6
t3_kooiy
null
t1_c2mbzz6
t1_c2maevm
null
1427642685
0
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
Agreed - It's about balance. In some systems, where there is plenty of time and a frozen spec, I can design the low level functionality and know it won't fundamentally change. In that case I've found TDD useful (although, in truth, I tend to develop tests and code in parallel). On the other hand, when the code is in a state of flux TDD doesn't work. How can I write unit tests for method A if in a day or two method A will be discarded and replaced by methods B and C? Often these changes of direction happen after I've started coding. You may say that I'm a crappy developer because I should nail the design down before starting coding. Unfortunately, I live in the real world where clients want something yesterday, other vendors are working on their parts of the system and haven't nailed down the interfaces yet, and I can't afford to sit and wait for them. Better to refactor 25% of the code later than to not start at all and have to do 100% of it in a rush. In that situation TDD is nonsense - tests get written after the code has coalesced.
null
0
1316904078
False
0
c2mc08p
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null
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null
True
StrangeWill
null
I'm shifting towards implementing TDD for specific new features (stuff like shared libraries that will be used on a lot of projects, central BLLs for our reporting, etc.), and if we were doing TDD I wouldn't be going back and fixing stuff implementing the tests afterwards. The whole complaint here about TDD that the article seems to center around is relying on your developers for testing, in my circumstance it saves us time and bugs that even if we had QA they wouldn't catch.
null
0
1316904191
True
0
c2mc0jn
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1427642693
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t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
cryo
null
Writing a test is a very limited form of design, one that has a hard time ensuring that your algorithm runs in O(n) time, say, and other things like that.
null
0
1316904300
False
0
c2mc10e
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null
t1_c2mc10e
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1427642707
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t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
PriscaDoulos
null
Go tell that to the guys at Oracle.
null
0
1316904556
False
0
c2mc1zb
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mc1zb
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null
1427642714
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
tekknolagi
null
I believe he did it for speed, as well
null
0
1316904601
False
0
c2mc25a
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null
t1_c2mc25a
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null
1427642715
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t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
I knew some people at Bloomberg that were using Mono to run .NET code on WinNT4. They make some strange technology choices over there.
null
0
1316904648
False
0
c2mc29u
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mc29u
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null
1427642718
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t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
cryo
null
You're confusing tests with test driven development.
null
0
1316904675
False
0
c2mc2fd
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mc2fd
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1427642718
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t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
sporkexec
null
Fortunately, PHP doesn't support monkeypatching unless you use [runkit](http://www.php.net/manual/en/ref.runkit.php), which is an awful hack. I'm sure this is more a consequence of its brittle design rather than an actual decision, though.
null
0
1316904797
False
0
c2mc2uw
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mc2uw
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null
1427642727
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t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
cryo
null
Testing != TDD
null
0
1316904835
False
0
c2mc2zn
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mc2zn
t1_c2ma4gh
null
1427642725
5
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
rafekett
null
Most people don't know ML/Haskell but most do know C, and tool support is better for C.
null
0
1316905102
False
0
c2mc3yu
t3_kpqzv
null
t1_c2mc3yu
t1_c2ma3gr
null
1427642746
4
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
VikingCoder
null
Having code that is *testable* is the point, I think. TDD is a way to force that. The only other value of TDD in my mind is that you end up with tests, which can establish a contract. If a developer breaks a test you wrote, they've broken a contract that you think you depend on. You two should hash it out, and figure out what to do.
null
0
1316905122
False
0
c2mc41i
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mc41i
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null
1427642747
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
jmdugan
null
possibly, yes. it seems from the two replies to my comment, there is some extra meaning to this phrase "test driven development" I've missed
null
0
1316905147
False
0
c2mc44n
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mc44n
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null
1427642742
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
argv_minus_one
null
>If it's truly trivial code, the tests are trivial and take very little time to write or maintain. Just because it's a waste of a small amount of time doesn't mean it isn't a waste of time.
null
0
1316905195
False
0
c2mc4an
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null
t1_c2mc4an
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null
1427642746
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null
null
null
True
jyper
null
python never supported backticks for execing.Backticks return string representation.
null
0
1316905225
False
0
c2mc4ei
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null
t1_c2mc4ei
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null
1427642749
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t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
mikef22
null
And boasting that he gets to "hire and fire" developers. So we'd all better listen to him confusing TDD for testing.
null
0
1316905386
False
0
c2mc4sv
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mc4sv
t1_c2mc2fd
null
1427642751
-1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
MatrixFrog
null
So it's more of a problem with the way the language is used, than a flaw in the design of the language itself? At least to some extent...
null
0
1316905415
False
0
c2mc4wl
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mc4wl
t1_c2mb2cb
null
1427642753
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
ruberik
null
Suppose that someone said, "Your screwdrivers can only hammer in 100 nails before breaking, and I need to hammer in 3,200 of them," you'd be justified in assuming that person was using the wrong tool whether the screwdriver was flawed or not.
null
0
1316905444
False
0
c2mc4zy
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mc4zy
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null
1427642754
11
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
cryo
null
Testing != TDD
null
0
1316905579
False
0
c2mc5h3
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mc5h3
t1_c2ma0kq
null
1427642760
8
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
BraveSirRobin
null
Agreed, but I'm not sure what you mean by boilerplate duplication; by "boilerplate" I mean things like setters and getters whose location is more relevant than the trivial code\* they contain. You can't really abstract this kind of "duplication". \* Here in the UK this is often called "Noddy Code", from [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noddy_%28character%29).
null
0
1316905624
False
0
c2mc5mp
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null
t1_c2mc5mp
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1427642759
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null
null
null
True
cryo
null
Mission critical software existed before TDD
null
0
1316905775
False
0
c2mc64z
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null
t1_c2mc64z
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1427642769
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t5_2fwo
null
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True
BraveSirRobin
null
But how do you get the instance of that inner class out of your original one to do test asserts on? Any class that retains "state" might need to expose the state object for testing. Wrapping this data up in another object (while useful for other reasons) doesn't help this problem.
null
0
1316905809
False
0
c2mc68v
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mc68v
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null
1427642780
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t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
nanothief
null
His advice isn't bullshit, and is pretty easy to do with the right tools. With something like autotest, all relevant tests are run when any code is changed. This gives great feedback if you accidentally break a unit test while working on another problem. Also, his advice to write a unit test before changing any code only applies when you need to add or change some functionality that isn't covered by existing tests. For example, if you receive a bug report that the program crashes when a negative value is given for a users net worth, to fix the bug you should write a new unit test that ensures that situation is handled correctly. If you are changing code for performance or refactoring reasons, you don't need to write any new tests. The existing tests will give you very good confidence on getting the changes right without introducing new bugs.
null
0
1316905980
False
0
c2mc6ui
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mc6ui
t1_c2ma3fc
null
1427642778
0
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
_pupil_
null
Very true - you could always test after-the-fact, and if you managed to achieve the same level of coverage and test quality your code should, in theory, be as stable and more resistent to errors as with TDD. I just don't think that's going to happen 9 times out of 10 ;) To start with you would lose out on at least some of the benefits to design, code quality, and ease of refactoring... also, most experimentation is made simpler when you have test scaffolding in place... and you wouldn't actively avoid 'rabbit holing' yourself on solutions that aren't 100% lined up with the eventual use of the code. IMO these are are significant factors that play in to avoiding costly support during development and over the entire lifetime of the product. If you're committed to code quality and test coverage - and if you're not I hope you never work on anything critical to peoples lives - then I think you have to look around: how many projects testing after-the-fact are managing to do that, and do that well? There's never time tomorrow, you're always going to be busy. Discounting future time leads to painful results... IMO if you're going to test at all, it's only going to happen if it comes first. That also means you get to reap the most reward from your work.
null
0
1316906039
False
0
c2mc72a
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mc72a
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null
1427642780
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
Iggyhopper
null
Someone actually said, "Your screwdrivers can only do a certain thing 100 times before breaking, and I need to do it 3,200 times." You don't assume things.
null
0
1316906042
False
0
c2mc72q
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mc72q
t1_c2mc4zy
null
1427642780
5
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
Fabien4
null
I recently got a dedicated server for an application. I basically got OVH's cheapest "serious" server, and got... 24 GB RAM. Now I have to find *some* use for all that RAM...
null
0
1316906078
False
0
c2mc77t
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mc77t
t1_c2ma0km
null
1427642781
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
TheMeansofProduction
null
[Larry Ellison](http://news.cnet.com/8301-13953_3-10052188-80.html)
null
0
1316906161
False
0
c2mc7i2
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mc7i2
t1_c2mb0ur
null
1427642784
5
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
gthank
null
Ah. I can see how that might be a pain for some things. Most of my C was classroom, and trivial enough I didn't need to do math on the size of things very often. Thanks for the info.
null
0
1316906367
False
0
c2mc86p
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mc86p
t1_c2mbvcb
null
1427642792
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
_pupil_
null
If you can, get your hands on a nice refactoring tool - it makes worlds of difference. At any rate: something that pops up a lot in some codebases is that tests tend to do a lot. A single test will cover multiple aspects of functionality and multiple interfaces. This can make refactoring a pain. Personally I use my tests to show me when I'm trying to do too much. If I see a test getting above a few lines, barring special circumstances, chances are I'm putting too much into the object I'm working with. Bulky tests are a clear sign to refactor, and the result is that you end up with a much more 1:1 relationship with your code and your tests and much more focused objects. In that case, when your tests are simple and minimalistic, any refactoring will become *much* simpler as you're just physically moving less code. Combine that with some basic refactoring support (rename and extract method), and code just flies out.
null
0
1316906832
False
0
c2mc9u0
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mc9u0
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null
1427642825
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
BraveSirRobin
null
> it's not to test the implementation, the internal state of the object after certain operations. The problem imho is that the design spec often dictates what this should be and therefore it needs tested. This is where code coverage tests are an opposite to "good" testing. Properly testing the spec is far more important than making Emma happy. ;-)
null
0
1316906862
False
0
c2mc9zb
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mc9zb
t1_c2mbuv1
null
1427642818
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
_pupil_
null
And by "me six months from now" you mean "me when I come home from the bar and am inspired to code".
null
0
1316906949
False
0
c2mca5n
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mca5n
t1_c2mbhcm
null
1427642822
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
BraveSirRobin
null
That's pretty much what I do, but I can't help but think that more planning might make the skeletal part unnecessary.
null
0
1316906981
False
0
c2mcaap
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcaap
t1_c2mbtm7
null
1427642824
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
_pupil_
null
Yeah, for some kinds of prototypes, especially if you're playing with a new language, it doesn't always make sense. For experimentation though I find TDD invaluable. It give me such a quick feedback cycle for testing out new code. Especially when working with an entirely new technology (I gotta do *what* with DCOM?), it can give you the confidence to know that your code works even if you're no expert. Oftentimes I test for the output I want and just hack in a single function until it (suddenly) works. Then I refactor like a madman :)
null
0
1316907373
False
0
c2mcbf9
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcbf9
t1_c2mbhck
null
1427642841
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
mm9k
null
Thanks
null
0
1316907408
False
0
c2mcbjc
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcbjc
t1_c2mc7i2
null
1427642842
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
shizzy0
null
It's true that hard-coding a single test case will not catch edge cases like that. However, it does give you a net of modest guarantees that your code works on those simple cases--no need to run it manually to find that out. Without those tests, you always have to go to exercising the code manually. If you do find edge cases, great! Add those to your test cases.
null
0
1316907728
False
0
c2mccoz
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mccoz
t1_c2mawgq
null
1427642852
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
joemoon
null
"The computer industry is the only industry that is more fashion-driven than women's fashion." [Larry Ellison](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Ellison)
null
0
1316907835
False
0
c2mcd2a
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcd2a
t1_c2mb0ur
null
1427642856
18
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
expertunderachiever
null
No, different distros [which we test in] don't all support the same version of the tools. They all have C90 compilers though... Imagine that. We write portable code with tools that any self-respecting distro should have.
null
0
1316907890
False
0
c2mcd9w
t3_kos4z
null
t1_c2mcd9w
t1_c2m8vg7
null
1427642859
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
[deleted]
null
0
1316907987
False
0
c2mcdlq
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mcdlq
t1_c2ma684
null
1427642863
6
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
[deleted]
null
0
1316908060
False
0
c2mcdvp
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mcdvp
t1_c2mae3l
null
1427642868
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
TikiTDO
null
If your tests aren't getting written, that's a critical management failure. Forcing your developers to write tests when they would not otherwise suggests to me that you are hiding a much more fundamental problem in how you organize your developers. Sure, you could go down the Agile Development checklist all you want, but you still need to understand your product and your programmers before you can even hope for a clean release.
null
0
1316908249
False
0
c2mcek2
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcek2
t1_c2ma2w5
null
1427642879
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
gadgster
null
Targeting only webkit browsers on mobile platforms is a sensible choice at the moment. But, a few years ago, a similar argument was made for only targeting IE6 on the desktop. A lot of sites did this and most people know the pain this caused going forward. Whilst this comparison isn't really fair, I think that using a library that attempts to abstract your site from mobile browser differences and provide graceful fallback for clients missing capabilities is worthwhile.
null
0
1316908297
True
0
c2mceq3
t3_kpgmn
null
t1_c2mceq3
t1_c2m7vkp
null
1427642881
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
seabre
null
>So it's more of a problem with the way the language is used Exactly.
null
0
1316908326
False
0
c2mcets
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mcets
t1_c2mc4wl
null
1427642887
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
keithb
null
Don't ask objects for data, instruct them to do something with the data they have. TDD can have a profound effect on design and this is one manifestation of this. TDD code tends towards the functional, because mutating state is hard to test, and tends towards the "tell, don't ask" style.
null
0
1316908425
False
0
c2mcf6e
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcf6e
t1_c2mc68v
null
1427642890
15
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
pingveno
null
> Why not do the same for various other constants? None, True, and False are the only constants that weren't already built into the language. Look at the contents of dir(\_\_builtins\_\_). Now it's only classes and functions. I haven't heard about the optimizations you speak of, but I doubt that they can beat the implementation of LOAD_CONST. From what I can tell, it takes 2-4 x86 instructions for the constant lookup itself. x = consts->ob_item[oparg]; consts is a tuple and oparg is the argument to the LOAD_CONST opcode.
null
0
1316908454
False
0
c2mcfae
t3_kos4z
null
t1_c2mcfae
t1_c2maw1d
null
1427642893
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
meddlepal
null
Time to get a new girlfriend if she cares that much about the appearance of a plate.
null
0
1316908483
False
0
c2mcfe7
t3_kogj4
null
t1_c2mcfe7
t1_c2m4n0d
null
1427642893
-1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
keithb
null
Don't write tests for getters and setters. (Mainly, don't write getters and setters). But do ensure that the getters and setters you do write are covered by tests. These don't have to be tests for the getters and setters.
null
0
1316908564
False
0
c2mcfod
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcfod
t1_c2mac44
null
1428192995
8
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
I do for getters and setters on Mbeans - to verify their basic functionality, which is to delegate everything to the managed object.
null
0
1316908612
False
0
c2mcfuf
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcfuf
t1_c2mac44
null
1427642899
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
[deleted]
null
0
1316908629
False
0
c2mcfwh
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mcfwh
t1_c2mbe5e
null
1427642900
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
Stormflux
null
I don't know about that. I tend to have getters and setters for everything, just because. Even if they don't have any implementation, as in: public class Foo { string SomeString { get; set; } int SomeInteger { get; set; } // rest of the class omitted } I mean, I guess technically it isn't needed, but it's so easy, you might as well. And I've gotten used to seeing it that way, so it throws me off for a second if it's not there.
null
0
1316908786
False
0
c2mcgfz
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcgfz
t1_c2mahso
null
1427642906
0
t5_2fwo
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null
null
True
teabagged
null
So... This article presupposes a magical fantasy land where developers make all the business decisions. Obviously nothing should be dogmatic including TDD, but there is plenty of value in it.
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0
1316908799
False
0
c2mcghq
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcghq
t3_kq001
null
1427642906
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
keithb
null
TDD has been around for a lot longer than 10 years. It's about as old as those other techniques you mention.
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0
1316908844
False
0
c2mcgn9
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcgn9
t1_c2mbx7n
null
1427642908
-1
t5_2fwo
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null
null
True
musman
null
This might not be exactly programming, but I think web developers who use SASS/SCSS might like using Bootstrap. Here's the homepage for [Sassy Boots](http://usmanity.com/sassy-boots/)
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0
1316908865
False
0
c2mcgpp
t3_kqfos
null
t1_c2mcgpp
t3_kqfos
null
1427642909
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
oSand
null
No, no. It was Oscar Wilde.
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0
1316909023
False
0
c2mch9o
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mch9o
t1_c2mc7i2
null
1427642913
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
BraveSirRobin
null
State is a nightmare for testing but it's sometimes unavoidable e.g. when you are modelling something real world that has state. A lot of code that interfaces with the outside world requires it, e.g Telco switches where states are "in-call", "available" etc etc. In another comment I mention doing a lot of GUI automated testing, in terms of "state" it's the worst of all as things like Tree UIs and popup dialogs make managing it a necessity to track state and code workarounds to restore it when an error occurs. That's PITA and then some! The only way around that in lower-level code is to pass the state into each method call, so that it exists outside of the class. The return object would be the updated state. Is that what you are suggesting?
null
0
1316909137
False
0
c2mchog
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mchog
t1_c2mcf6e
null
1427642917
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
pinguz
null
> I have yet to see unit-tests that account for every possible state of the system they test Probably because that's obviously impossible and not the goal of unit testing in the first place. You write unit tests that test certain inputs and border cases, and later extend them to test more specific scenarios if and when needed. You'll never be able to test every possible input, and you never need to.
null
0
1316909214
False
0
c2mchyd
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mchyd
t1_c2mbwl2
null
1427642921
5
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
[deleted]
null
0
1316909290
False
0
c2mci86
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mci86
t1_c2mcdlq
null
1427642924
0
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
argv_minus_one
null
JavaScript engines are optimized for *browser scripting,* not massive server-side number-crunching. This issue is an example of that.
null
0
1316909433
False
0
c2mcir9
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mcir9
t1_c2mb6nh
null
1428192994
11
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
berlinbrown
null
It isn't a party. It is just whenever the particular IDE will bring support.
null
0
1316909458
True
0
c2mciua
t3_kq0ms
null
t1_c2mciua
t1_c2mbcp2
null
1427642932
6
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
jeffdavis
null
From a purely technical standpoint, you're right. But a software fork is not a technical problem (and not even necessarily a problem). If it is a problem, it's a social problem -- nobody is quite sure where to go. MariaDB? Drizzle? SkySQL? Stay with Oracle? And the choice *is* important. Where do you get your updates? Can you trust the releases to be relatively stable/robust, or do they just throw the code out there, and let you figure out if it's stable or not? Is there a vibrant community that has enough resources to meet needs as they come up, or is it struggling to find the time to answer your bug report? Which projects can attract real engineering talent? Real customers? That's one of the advantages of postgresql. No real forks, it gets good releases out reliably, the dot-zero releases are relatively stable, it's got a robust community, it's attracting good engineering talent from a variety of sources, and there are real customers that push it enough to help make it better. MySQL had some of those things before it was bought, but now it's in a fairly awkward position.
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0
1316909481
True
0
c2mciww
t3_kpecl
null
t1_c2mciww
t1_c2m8qv9
null
1427642933
7
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
twistedrapier
null
Good managers already know this. They go out of their way to help facilitate stuff like this because it gets the product out the door with less headaches. Only space fillers like ItsNotMeReally don't get that.
null
0
1316909530
False
0
c2mcj44
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcj44
t1_c2mb9vn
null
1427642937
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
TikiTDO
null
Where do you see anything dismissing unit testing? The entire article is about the holy mantra of writing your tests before your business logic. Sure, there are people that do this and love it, but it is certainly not the only way, nor the single best way to code. I personally find that injecting tests into my code too early breaks my flow, and leaves me foundering in the details when I could (and would) easily resolve those issues at a conceptual level. Every single time I have tried it, I found myself wasting a huge amount of time going back and forth between my tests and business logic trying to fix intermediate bugs that would have gotten ironed out well before the final version. Since then I switched to my current method where I simply understand my code well enough to apply a very generalized debugging and testing framework to ensure it is moving in the right direction, then write my actual tests once I have ironed out most of the problems, and have a decent baseline. This way I do not have to interrupt my thought process in mid-stride just because I had earlier thought it was a good place to have a test right there, but I still get a full range of tests to ensure my final product is maintainable. Granted, I have the ability to keep very low level details of a ridiculously huge system in my head, but that just goes to show that you should always be aware of your own (And others') limitations and abilities before trying to sell one method as being the one best way.
null
0
1316909658
False
0
c2mcjkf
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcjkf
t1_c2m9zus
null
1427642942
2
t5_2fwo
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null
null
True
[deleted]
null
It is hard to understand FFT without first understanding the Fourier Transform in general. Have you taken PDEs?
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0
1316909688
False
0
c2mcjo6
t3_kogj4
null
t1_c2mcjo6
t1_c2lw9ta
null
1427642943
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
If you want to continute this discussion on /r/law, http://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/kqd4b/alright_rlaw_what_do_you_think_useful_tool_for/ tl;dr it's completely ineffective.
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0
1316909817
False
0
c2mck4c
t3_k6mf5
null
t1_c2mck4c
t3_k6mf5
null
1427642949
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
keithb
null
Not necessarily. That's the monadic solution that, say, Haskell uses to manage state. You can get there with TDD but it's not required. The object maintains state between method calls, it doesn't have to be maintained outside the object. Take your telco example. It may well be that a call object has states such as you mention, but there is almost never any unavoidable reason to expose which of those states it is in at the interface of the object. The object knows its state, tell it what you want it to do in each state and feed it events that might change the state.
null
0
1316909963
False
0
c2mckmx
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mckmx
t1_c2mchog
null
1427642957
6
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
BraveSirRobin
null
Java's memory management is top notch. It has numerous GC implementations to deal with excessively large heaps. Only the top 1% of C++ programmers could come up with something more performant.
null
0
1316910063
False
0
c2mckye
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mckye
t1_c2ma0km
null
1427642960
7
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
jeffdavis
null
Because EnterpriseDB ships the same code as postgresql, but just with some tools on top and nice packaging (e.g. for windows and mac), and offer support and training. Their enhancements to core postgresql are contributed back the community under the postgresql license (bsd-like). And enterprisedb only owns the copyright for their own contributions, not the entire source. In other words, it's *not at all the same*.
null
0
1316910151
False
0
c2mcl8b
t3_kpecl
null
t1_c2mcl8b
t1_c2m88xb
null
1427642963
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
WyattEpp
null
Very funny, but screw the holy war. This is accessibility. emacs may think it's cute to replace eight spaces with a tab and say it's using both, but that's not what I'm arguing for. If my position, as you say, is the core of the holy war, then what's the big problem? I could belabour this point further, but I'll leave it be for now; I have work.
null
0
1316910299
False
0
c2mclq7
t3_kooiy
null
t1_c2mclq7
t1_c2m7ieq
null
1427642973
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
twoodfin
null
That's like saying people were doing "object-oriented programming" in the '50's with function pointers. TDD, as an articulated development philosophy (i.e., "tests first"), is nowhere near 40 or 50 years old.
null
0
1316910400
False
0
c2mcm2k
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcm2k
t1_c2mcgn9
null
1427642974
7
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
x-skeww
null
>Why the fuck is anyone writing an application that consumes 32GB of memory in Javascript? People are writing applications in JS which *may* consume more than 1GB. Since that's V8's limit, some people are suggesting that this limit should be increased to some sane far-away value like 32GB. IE9 for example allows you to put up to 4GB of data into data URIs. Of course this doesn't mean that anyone is doing that. The old 32kb limit was simply way too low.
null
0
1316910828
False
0
c2mcnhi
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mcnhi
t1_c2ma0km
null
1427642993
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
inmatarian
null
Are you going to try to make your programming language self-hosting?
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0
1316910914
False
0
c2mcnrp
t3_kpqzv
null
t1_c2mcnrp
t3_kpqzv
null
1427642997
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
jeffdavis
null
> The end result is the same. I think that's where you are way off. Even if you win the logic argument here by drawing some kind of equivalence between enterprisedb and oracle, I think you are way off when it comes to reality. Almost all development of postgresql itself, including almost all development done by enterprisedb, is contributed back to the community. And enterprisedb doesn't control the release schedule for community postgres. And most development takes place outside of enterprisedb (though they are a significant contributor, of course). Those are huge real world differences. By your logic, I could take FreeBSD off the shelf, add a new feature called "ls+" which is just like "ls" except it formats the results in some superior way, and start selling that version for a premium. And then you could say that the FreeBSD community is beholden to me in the same way as MySQL is beholden to Oracle.
null
0
1316910925
False
0
c2mcnt0
t3_kpecl
null
t1_c2mcnt0
t1_c2m8sxr
null
1427642997
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
x-skeww
null
>Ruby (the Rails community in particular I think), though, it's the complete opposite. They don't like that anymore and some sort of scoped monkey patching is already on its way.
null
0
1316911025
False
0
c2mco5k
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mco5k
t1_c2mb2cb
null
1427643001
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
throwaway-o
null
numpy is pretty efficient. If you had a numpy array several GB in size, I'd be totally fine with that.
null
0
1316911530
False
0
c2mcpuf
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mcpuf
t1_c2maikv
null
1427643027
10
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
sketerpot
null
It helps that SPDY is 100% compatible with HTTP; it is only used if, during the SSL handshake, both client and server reveal that they support SPDY. If this is not the case, then they just use HTTP. No "embrace and extend" bullshit, no irritating incompatibility, no monopolistic bludgeoning. This is how things are *supposed* to move forward.
null
0
1316911541
False
0
c2mcpvl
t3_kp1b5
null
t1_c2mcpvl
t1_c2m8vc0
null
1427643027
9
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
tilio
null
i'm not sure you had enough buzzwords in there. this pitch surely wouldn't get $2k/hr. you need at least 5 or 6 more buzzwords to get up there. distributed, scaleable, robust, stateful, results-driven... i find those are pretty timeless, and they're always winners.
null
0
1316911596
False
0
c2mcq23
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcq23
t1_c2mawid
null
1427643029
4
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
diadem
null
Because fuck case studies and metrics from real world scenarios with statistically significant results. This guy is arrogant and relies on opinions so he must be right! >But the demand that you should always write your tests first? Give me a break. The idea is within reason, obviously. Not dogmatic.
null
0
1316911609
True
0
c2mcq33
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcq33
t3_kq001
null
1427643029
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
throwaway-o
null
Welcome to GLib / Vala. Not C (GLib technically is, Vala isn't but compiles down to C), just as good.
null
0
1316911629
False
0
c2mcq69
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mcq69
t1_c2maman
null
1427643030
-1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
diadem
null
More like chef Ramsey. >Apparently the entire history of computer software before the last decade or so was done by hacks and fools. We are a very rapidly changing field. The needs of the industry is changing and we constantly are being given tools that weren't available to us a long time ago. For heaven's sake we are a *technology* field. Our gurus of the past would have thrived with more modern technology.
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0
1316912014
False
0
c2mcrfn
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcrfn
t1_c2manpi
null
1427643049
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
tilio
null
only unqualified inexperienced tools think that unqualified inexperienced tools have just as valid opinions as experts. i'm not saying loubser is an expert, but the OP's article reeks of inexperience. wait about 5 or 6 years until you're out of school, and hopefully you'll begin to know what i'm talking about.
null
0
1316912120
False
0
c2mcrsa
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcrsa
t1_c2ma59s
null
1427643052
-4
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
diadem
null
Your contractor is a strawman. Look at case studies for companies in similar situations to you. It sounds like he's an idiot and him being right or wrong in what he says will be given to nothing but chance. It's important to constantly look inward to see how we can improve ourselves. Don't let a scumbag contractor prevent you from doing this because he put you on the defensive. You'll either find a better way or have data showing you that you've been doing it right all along. In either case you win. Note: If you are so nose to the grindstone that you don't have time for this I highly suggest that you include it in your schedule in the future.
null
0
1316912299
False
0
c2mcsen
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcsen
t1_c2macsi
null
1427643057
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
minerlj
null
Are we talking about A B split testing here for page conversion ratios?
null
0
1316912363
False
0
c2mcsm8
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcsm8
t3_kq001
null
1427643060
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
tau-lepton
null
Agree with garymush, it can seem unintuitive, but private methods shouldn't be tested if the design is clean. That being said sometimes I'll test an algorithm that will be private if I haven't worked out where I want it in the design yet.
null
0
1316912494
True
0
c2mct2l
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mct2l
t1_c2mbg9l
null
1427643066
4
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
tau-lepton
null
I too hate the bean pattern,
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0
1316912669
False
0
c2mctnx
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mctnx
t1_c2mahso
null
1427643074
6
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
jmdavis
null
I don't know what emacs does. I use vim (which is yet another holy war). My point was that you seemed to be arguing for using tabs as indentation and spaces for everything else as if that were outside the holy war. The entire "war" is over whether tabs should be used _at all_. Those who are pro-spaces, don't want tabs to be used at all, whereas those who are pro-tabs think that tabs should be used for indentation-only. Anyone that's mixing the two is being foolish, and I think that that it is generally agreed upon. If emacs is doing something where it's automatically inserting tabs for spaces, then that's obviously a problem for emacs users, and it certainly sounds like it's a something that they shouldn't have done. But I don't know the ins and outs of emacs and what it does and doesn't do.
null
0
1316912672
False
0
c2mctog
t3_kooiy
null
t1_c2mctog
t1_c2mclq7
null
1427643074
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
The CRUD operations would be used to implementing some of the business logic. They don't need separate tests since they'll get covered by the business logic tests.
null
0
1316912795
False
0
c2mcu4g
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcu4g
t1_c2m9mji
null
1427643078
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
checksinthemail
null
As did I. Sure better than that stupid ass brogramming youtube that was supposed to make me laugh.
null
0
1316912931
False
0
c2mcul7
t3_kqd8o
null
t1_c2mcul7
t1_c2mbwom
null
1427643084
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
* Work out a test strategy * Prioritize risky code first * Specify how much time you have for test development * Start implementing tests going down the list from high priority toward low priority * When you run out of time, stop wherever you're at with the tests and move on to the next task. You don't always need 100% test coverage.
null
0
1316912975
False
0
c2mcuq9
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcuq9
t3_kq001
null
1427643087
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
johnyma22
null
I'm from the Etherpad foundation. We placed java with javascript (nodeJS) from Etherpad because nodeJS requires roughly ~5% of the original java stack (rhino) resources. It makes perfect sense to have javascript server side apps when they have such small overheads. That's what NodeJS brings to the table.
null
0
1316913136
False
0
c2mcva8
t3_kq27q
null
t1_c2mcva8
t1_c2m9f3j
null
1427643093
6
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
amigoinvisible
null
Not to be confused with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FACT_computer_language
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0
1316913147
False
0
c2mcvbp
t3_kpqzv
null
t1_c2mcvbp
t3_kpqzv
null
1427643094
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
garymrush
null
What I'm suggesting is refactoring out that inner class and testing it independently. Since the original class would only be dependent on the new classes interface, it can be supplied a mock instance as a property or alternate constructor. As an example, suppose my Universe class is getting a little too complex, so I decide to factor out Galaxy. I supply my Universe with a GalaxyFactory, and now I only have to make sure it uses it properly.
null
0
1316913223
False
0
c2mcvkm
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcvkm
t1_c2mc68v
null
1427643098
3
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
wildthought
null
Every methodology can be taken to an extreme. RUP, Waterfall, and I think TDD is especially prone to it. It reminds me of the relational database modeling vs. OOP debates during RUP's heyday. What do you do first, data model or class model. I would argue it doesn't matter as long as you get the same result. Their are rules that ORM's have figured out how to reverse and forward engineer between each other. If those rules exist, then why can't we model either way first. Similarly whether we write tests first or code first should be the purview of the person writing the program. Do I really want to write a test first for every stored procedure I write. Of course, I do not. I am sick of seeing articles on how to do TDD in the database layer. I am equally sick of having to create my own mocks to mimic a layer I can get to in milliseconds. I think it has its place, but it does promote coding bloat. Now, RUP promotes documentation bloat. I truly believe, that quality software engineers (aka master craftsmen) can choose what methodologies to draw from as needed. To say, I have the way and its the only way is telling me that you are afraid to think outside your own box.
null
0
1316913371
False
0
c2mcw33
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcw33
t3_kq001
null
1427643105
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
Nuli
null
If it's a requirement that an algorithm finish within a particular time frame that can be tested for. Simply knowing the complexity, which is also testable, is probably insufficient.
null
0
1316913573
False
0
c2mcwrr
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcwrr
t1_c2mc10e
null
1427643114
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
borshlite
null
Is it just me, or is TDD simply standardizing, and documenting the way that development is done normally? When this process was first introduced/forced on me by people who misunderstand it, I was thinking that well, yeah I'm given case scenarios, and my code needs to be able hand x and y situations. I agree with the author of this article that some people feel TDD's dogma will solve all of a programmer's problems, but in reality it should have already been only a part of the process, and documenting/standardizing will help by people reviewing your scenarios, but it isn't going to solve some of the problems that present themselves over and over again like advertised.
null
0
1316913634
False
0
c2mcwyt
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcwyt
t3_kq001
null
1427643117
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
[deleted]
null
0
1316913638
False
0
c2mcwzn
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcwzn
t1_c2marsz
null
1427643118
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
> The whole concept of Test-Driven Development is hocus, and embracing it as your philosophy, criminal. Doesn't sound like he likes it too much, either.
null
0
1316913671
False
0
c2mcx3e
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcx3e
t1_c2macfv
null
1427643119
0
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
[deleted]
null
The scala toolset is pretty unfriendly overall, wish it would get a little easier.
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0
1316913687
False
0
c2mcx60
t3_kmygn
null
t1_c2mcx60
t1_c2lovit
null
1427643120
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
godofpumpkins
null
There really isn't much of speed penalty with GHC Haskell these days, if you know what you're doing.
null
0
1316913777
False
0
c2mcxhs
t3_kpqzv
null
t1_c2mcxhs
t1_c2mc25a
null
1427643124
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
mrjbq7
null
Oh, those are really *really* **really** big numbers.
null
0
1316913808
False
0
c2mcxma
t3_koio1
null
t1_c2mcxma
t1_c2m8f09
null
1428192987
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
mariox19
null
And let's not even talk about when the code is later modified to shoehorn some kind of added functionality into it.
null
0
1316913835
False
0
c2mcxq0
t3_kq001
null
t1_c2mcxq0
t1_c2ma0du
null
1427643127
2
t5_2fwo
null
null
null
True
checksinthemail
null
I had a boss who looked just like that. Except he was bigger in LOC and Test coverage % - he couldn't give a rat's ass about the bugs as long as it didn't affect his next bonus.
null
0
1316913880
False
0
c2mcxvu
t3_kop0t
null
t1_c2mcxvu
t3_kop0t
null
1427643132
1
t5_2fwo
null
null
null