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Again a superb Article and has me feeling that I am a child, out on a School Outing with a competent Teacher. |
"As with the use of oud and ambergris, the skill of a perfumer and the composition of a perfume almost always transcend the question of its raw materials. In other words, when a perfume is beautiful, it is enough to sit back and enjoy it, without worrying too much about what is natural and what is synthetic." |
[QUOTE]Camorr, Josh does not use the natural musk in any of his fragrances. He doesn't believe his customer base would be open to it. Who knows what might happen in the future though. I think that the success of Areej Le Dore with Siberian Musk might get some indie perfumers thinking.[/QUOTE] |
Thanks for the answer Claire. I totally understand Josh's reservations considering the whole animal cruelty controversy. |
What an amazing article this is! So easy to read and so interesting, I read it one breath! Thank you Claire! |
All that talk of scraping sacks and morning breath has me unable to sit in one position. I'm half way through, but I think I'll save the rest for some red wine later (hopefully it can relax my clenched butt cheeks.) |
Adam from Feel Oud just sent me a pic of the Siberian musk pod and grains he will be using for Siberian Musk Intense. However, I can't seem to locate the insert image button - does anyone know how I can insert an image without linking to an external file sharing site? |
This musk is going to be used in the Siberian Musk Intense, which despite the name isn't necessarily stronger but contains even higher quality raw materials such as Indian sandalwood (replacing the Aussie one). |
Adam is also using grains from the previous stock to make a new musky perfume called Flux de Fleur, which he's hoping to release with the other new perfumes, Atlantic Ambergris and Oud Piccante. |
This article would my "reference" in the subject of "musk". A bundle of thanks @ClaireV on this descriptive article. As a hungry man for "musk" and living in UAE, I have tried (and own) many varieties of musk and I'm fully agree with these words. Superb and great work in fact, I prepared my "test-list" for the mentione... |
I've been eagerly awaiting this article, and I am completely awestruck by the depth of your research and insights. This a dissertation, not an article! Everything here is so intelligently, so generously communicated, and your judicious and balanced discussion of the ethical issues surrounding the use of deer musk is wo... |
Thank you Claire for shedding light on this complicated matter! What a thoroughly researched and detailed article! Very easy to follow and entertaining to read. I especially appreciate the openness of the discussion on the legality and ethics of using deer musk. It helped me to better understand this tricky situation. ... |
Thanks so much for your kind words, StellaDiverFlynn and Grayspoole - high praise from the two of you! |
Grayspoole, with your interest in the classics, I'd be very curious to know what you make of the Siberian Musk. Yellowtone mentioned to me that she thought there was something of vintage No. 5 in it. Stella, I used to wear TBS White Musk when I was much younger, but I didn't know they still made the oil version (do the... |
Can people check the updated link I posted a few comments up to see if I've correctly made the photo of the Siberian musk pod and its paste available to public view? Thanks. |
I am feeling inspired to explore more musky perfumes, but I'm going to stick with the synthetic and plant based options. I think the risk of accidentally buying an illegal product is just too great to justify trying something with real deer musk. I'll be happy to just smell real ambrette seed oil! I didn't know that it... |
I completely understand your point of view, Furrypine. For ambrette, I think two benchmark perfumes would be Chanel No. 18, and Musc Nomade. |
Thank you for writing this excellent article, Claire. It is a extremely valuable source of knowledge on an often confusing subject. |
Claire, you know me too well. As a vintage-loving geek, I am always going to compare new perfumes to old, so of course I immediately began comparing Siberian Musk to vintage. |
But I wasn’t the only one! As I tested Siberian Musk for the first time, after ripping open the package (at the dinner table, no less), I offered my wrist to my patient DH, who took one sniff and said mildly: “It smells like one of your vintages.” |
And it certainly does. No need to overanalyze this: Siberian Musk smells just wonderful. The bergamot in it made me run to dab on one of my treasured vintages on my other arm, a perfectly preserved Emeraude parfum from...the 1930’s?...which has the most beautiful bergamot of any bottle I own. Very similar in their open... |
But Siberian Musk is its own, unique creation. Bravo Russian Adam!. It is very heartening to see artisanal perfumers equalling the achievements of the great perfumers of the past. As in cooking, the ingredients come first, then the skill of the cook. |
I’d be curious to hear any additional thoughts you have (and those of others) on the subject of musk in vintage perfumes, Given what I’ve read about the immediate commercial success of nitromusks in the 1890’s, I have assumed that the musks I smell in my vintage perfumes are always these now-banned musks, and not natur... |
Until the interwar period, for economic reasons, the perfume and cosmetic industries only relied on three compounds: musk xylene (2), musk ambrette (3), and musk ketone (4). These became universally employed ingredients even when polycyclic and macrocyclic artificial musks appeared. The famous Chanel N°5 by Ernest Beau... |
If the classics are all built on nitromusks, then the enthusiasm for these compounds was well founded, because they really do resemble deer musk quite closely, it would seem to me, based on my experience with Siberian Musk. Newer musks, not quite so much, in my opinion. |
Interesting take on Sarah Jessica Parker's Lovely as well, as it sells for pennies nowadays. Proving that there are still bargains around if one knows where to look.) |
Grayspoole - sounds like your husband has been unwillingly exposed to your vintage obsessions over the years! Well, sometimes the virgin nose can peg it even quicker than we can. I agree that the pine/citrus notes in Siberian Musk aren't aggressive or jarring, although a few have found them to be intrusive or distracti... |
I don't think that No. 5 ever contained deer musk, but I have heard that nitro-musks were a very accurate representation of what deer musk actually smells like, especially in its powdery, sweaty-intimate, and sweet-grimy facets. I have not been exposed to nitro-musks much beyond a 1950's No. 5 parfum I used to own, and... |
I liked the attempt at making a retro animalic perfume, but it never smelled all that convincing to me. Certainly not anywhere near what Cuir de Russie is in terms of quality. I'm not sure dialing Salome up to 11 is the answer either, but it wasn't the home run for me that it was for other people. |
TBS still offers the perfume oil version, but since about two years ago, they've changed the packaging of their fragrance range and I haven't yet compared my old packaging with the new one. As for the shower gel, sadly I haven't tried either of them. |
You're not the only one. On me, Salome opened with a little filth but turned into a nice polite girl. Lovely perfume though. |
I am finally starting to get my head around notes and will keep this as homework for later (once I have a smattering of iris!) |
Thank you, Claire for another wonderfully informative piece on a murky subject. I love how you use readily accessible imagery to describe these notes though 'morning breath' is something one can eliminate easily with a pre-bedtime ritual of teeth-brushing, flossing and gargling antibacterial mouthwash. I've added a few... |
Unfortunately, I was informed today that JK DeLapp has been expelled from the IPF (International Perfume Foundation) for his participation in this article, because the article is deemed to be "promoting the use of musk". The IPF charter requires its members to refrain from talking about either natural deer musk or its ... |
Damn! That is totally unfair. He was not promoting only informing. What a ripoff. I encourage everyone to support his fundraiser: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/rising-phoenix-perfumery-expansion/x/16557023#/ to help assuage this loss. |
I'm having trouble grasping the finer points of this argument. Has the IPF issued any kind of statement explaining their position on this matter? |
You've set the bar high many times, Claire, but this piece blows the bar into orbit. A fantastic article that I plan on reading multiple times to fully absorb. |
I'm a huge fan of stinkers, and the Areej le Doré line is riding high on my must-sniff list. I've smelled one of those deer musks listed above, and it reminded me more of leather than a musk. Kind of a trippy material overall. |
I will not pretend that I understand the logic behind this or the higher reasons, but so many perfumes use synthetic musk today. So you're allowed to use it, but not to speak about it. Same goes for legally obtained deer musk. It's ok to use it as long as you don't say so? I am very sorry about what happened to JK DeLa... |
On the IPF matter, I am repeating information given to me by JK DeLapp himself, but the IPF is very welcome to come and make a comment here to correct me if I am wrong in understanding it: |
- The IPF is against animal musk because of cruelty to animals; but the organization also opposes the use of synthetic musk (because they are against synthetics of any kind) |
- The IPF disapproves of this article because they think it promotes interest in the use of musk - both synthetic or natural (not sure which one is more evil) |
- The IPF expelled JK DeLapp from the organization because he gave me information for the article and thus contributed to growing interest among readers for both natural and synthetic musk |
- To be a member of IPF, you have to commit to not using animal or synthetic musk, not using synthetics of any kind, and talking about musk (either natural or synthetic) in public for fear of creating more interest among the public for musk (either natural or synthetic) |
I understand that many, if not most, people do not like the idea of animal musk and cruelty to animals. I also understand that there is a segment of the natural perfume sector that abhors synthetics of any kind, including many isolates. To have both those beliefs combined in one organization doesn't leave one with much... |
Thanks so much, Deadidol! I appreciate that greatly. If you are having trouble locating a sample of the Areej Le Dore, let me know and I will send you a sample. Which one of the deer musks reminded you of a leather more than a musk? Interesting you say that because most of the natural deer musks I smelled displayed a f... |
Thank you Claire, for clarifying that. Now there's one organization I'd never want to be a member of then. I'd rather not have anyone sit on top of my freedom of speech, as long as it is not offensive or damaging to anyone, which this article was not (deer included), in any way. Such rigid and pointless rules, that act... |
Seems to me that nowdays one can't possibly write an intelligent, informed piece on any even slightly delicate matter without getting punished for it one way or the other. |
Considering the speed at which the expulsion occurred from the time of publication, it was probably an arbitrary decision made by a few people, or even just one person alone. I'm leery of such organizations anyway, as too often they turn out to be just marketing vehicles for goods and services for those involved. On th... |
"Against synthetic of any kind"?? Lol. How ironic. The whole idea of wearing fragrance is 'artificial' to begin with! |
To keep on topic, don't you think a blanket ban on musk-related information only serves to trigger greater demand for a 'forbidden fruit'? |
I guess no one at IPF knows about Streisand effect. But then given their contradictory policy on musk, smarts must not be an arrow in their quiver. |
A Russian jury is in deliberation and asks the judge for instructions. "How will we deal with these New Russian litigants? The defendant gave us $7,000 and the plaintiff gave us $5,000. What should we do?" After ten minutes of thinking, the judge says, "Well, I have an idea. Let's return $2,000 to the defendant and the... |
This is a very informative article written with characteristic sparkle, but I do think it suffers from one fallacy. While Claire plainly acknowledges the rampant illegality in the musk trade where hunting is forbidden, she repeated and painstakingly details the manner in which Siberian musk is “legal.” Based on my busi... |
Schnozz - absolutely, no doubt about it, there's a lot of corruption going on in Russia. But that doesn't mean that everything that comes out of Russia is illegal. I've talked to two people who import deer musk from Siberia, and both confirm that the hunting is properly controlled through licensing. As for how thorough... |
IPF developed Natural Perfume Guidelines and Standards that specifically exclude the use or promotion of musk whether natural or synthetic. These Guidelines and Standards were created by a panel of IPF Natural Perfumers, not by IPF itself. |
Each person is free to agree or disagree with these Standards, but they are IPF Standards and anyone wishing to be IPF Certified has to promise in writing to follow IPF Guidelines. JK not only signed our Certification Application promising to abide by these Standards, but promised verbally and in writing to remove all ... |
Providing content on musk to this widely read publication was determined to violate IPF’s Guidelines and Standards which was the second time he had done so. |
The first time he violated the Guidelines, IPF discussed the situation with JK and decided (after many assurances from JK that he would not use or promote musk again) to take no action. This second violation resulted in IPF and JK separating. |
IPF feels very strongly that musk should not be used in perfumery and synthetics cannot be used by IPF Certified Natural Perfumers. We have a fantastic group of Natural Perfumers who gladly follow IPF Guidelines and Standards. |
We don’t profess to be in the mainstream at this time, but we have the right to join together to promote Natural Perfumery the way our group believes it should be done. |
Any Natural Perfumer who agrees with these Standards can apply to join our great group. Anyone who does not agree has the same right not to join. |
Having owned a business in Russia, Claire, I do not share your optimism -- and forgive me if I am actually tickled by your statement, perfectly reasonable by Earth-logic, that effective controls and regulation likely does exist because, after all, we are dealing with a "valuable local resource" and it "makes sense." Th... |
Just because I used mild language to speculate about the corruption in Siberia doesn't mean that I'm optimistic or naive about corruption. Having spent 17 years in the post-war free for all frenzy that was Bosnia, Serbia, and Montenegro, it's rather to the contrary. I ran an anti-corruption program in the Balkans for m... |
I have an allergy to supression of any knowledge and also to that too easy black and white thinking that often passes for 'awareness'. I am very queasy about animal suffering of any kind, but happily suspend any qualms to eat meat and fish, so I can understand the cognitive dissonance involved in these matters, althoug... |
Claire's interview with JP and musk article were very informative, balanced, and unsullied by hectoring about anything. In other words, journalistic rather than campaigning. In clearly describing the process of musk extraction, it provides food for thought and allows the reader to consider the question for themselves a... |
I've tried and really liked some of JP's oils and hope he is not affected much by this storm in a teacup. |
Anyway, back to musk sniffing! As the only definitely musky perfumes on the list I own are the Acampora Musc and (now!) Musc Gold, on Claire's advice I can avoid any razor-based interference in my own nether regions - have to say I first read that as 'full BLUSH'! Now where can I find a shag carpet? |
looks like someone is a little defensive about declaring that Russian-sourced musk is presumptively legit. |
implausible, but a particularly tough sell for a crowd who generally wouldn't even buy a designer fragrances from Russian-based ebay sellers. |
I hope that readers choose to read through the superb reviews and the banter following. As a whole, it holds the exercises necessary to understand the views of others and further, to assist in the development of critical, listening, reading and thinking skills. |
Thanks MzM - yes, he does, it's his eBay page here: https://www.ebay.ie/sch/themostbeautifulscents/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from= |
Having tested much of his work, I can really recommend his attars that focus on roses, vetiver, musk, and green/jungle ouds. Enjoy! |
Claire, thank you so much for contributing such a fantastic write up to basenotes. You are such an asset to the fragrance community! |
Thank you for this extremely detailed and informative article. I also appreciate you pointing out the hypocritical stance of those who decry the use of real musk because of animal cruelty while at the same time consuming farmed animal products and fish. |
Holy shit Claire! What a fantastic piece of writing. I particularly enjoyed your description of the Bruno Acampora musc. This is one of my all time favourite scents and one which I've always struggled to put into words as I find it maddeningly dirty and clean at the same time. Thank you so much and keep up the good wor... |
Thank you very much, Cazaubon, Duncan, and Therese! You know, when anyone says Holy Shit to me, I always think of Holy Shit, the perfume by Pekji perfumes - have any of you tried this one? It's very, very dirty, as well as smoky and dry, like a dirt-encrusted leather jacket thrown on a campfire, with a side of wet, sul... |
It's all musty catacombs, dust covered remains of resinous altar offerings, smoke impregnated cassocks and sweat infused leathers, pain followed by ecstatic howls and mewling. A light slightly damp movement of air from adjoining tunnels is slightly cooling but unrefreshing. This is what I wanted 1740 Marquis de Sade to... |
Brilliant musk article, very informative. I have been trying different musk scents, especially in the Arab world, for over 18 years and have noticed a sharp decline in natural musk. It's useful to know that it can be synthesised almost as good as the natural. |
What an informative article. Going to revisit this from time to time. Answered a great deal of questions I had and I myself owned and Attar that I wasn't sure if it was musk or not. The description of the scent is so varied (from medicinal to spicy, fecal to woods) that I was confused as to its origins. I can now after... |
An interesting articles on musk, the articles rendered more on the experience of a few perfumers point of view of musk when referred to smell. I do applaud your effort. However , when referred to old scriptures, it does mentioned that musk smell sweet. i am a bit perplexed on the articles available on the net pertainin... |
in the late 70's , i remember the smell of pure musk worn by people who attended the wedding reception or ceremony. The whole room smell of musk. It is so cloying and overpowering and induced a bit of headache to me. Now it is rather difficult to obtain a pure musk. My greatest fear on the misconception of musk is that... |
I would propose that a more detail research is done on musk pertaining to the originality of the smell that is mentioned in the old scriptures. I believe a search on kamrup musk should be able to assist. As far as the smell of the musk i can still recollect is more incline towards flowery which magnolia flower or champ... |
My apologies if it offend anybody but, i love perfume and i always love that the true smell of musk mentioned in old scriptures as sweet never animalic, dirty or earthy is proclaimed is considered to be searched thoroughly and compared. please write another articles on kamrup musk where it explained by researchers , am... |
When you smell raw deer musk grains, the smell is always animalic and earthy. But when it is macerated in sandalwood it becomes much sweeter over time, notes emerge thar were not evident. Yet when tinctured it tends to bring out the raw notes of the grains again. |
So these different methods bring about different facets of the musk, much the same with other methods of extracting a scent. |
If you extract vetivers scent by C02, you'll lose a lot of its beautiful freshness, yet an essential oil distillation will bring a much more enchanting aroma. |
I will love to read more on the old scriptures of musks smell too, i know in Islamic texts the smell is also referred to as a sweet one. |
Thank you abdullah..what you are saying is true in one aspect. However the type of deer where musk is obtained is also a determining factor.as for how the oils is obtained i seen the maceration and other techniques, but i was told verbally, my apologies for the lack of reference, that in the olden days musk is applied ... |
I have an argument with numbers of perfurmers that insists musk is animalic, i told them that it depend on species and how the oil is obtained. |
Again my concern is i do not want knowledge is lost and i want it to conserve, beside conserving the wild deer, knowledge is very important too. If one knows the true smell of something one can appreciate and benefit from the creativity of perfumers in interpreting musk. |
ps: i am still trying to find people that had smell species of aqualaria rostrata, there is only one tree that was found in malaysia, the elderly often describe to me as being really sweet and even there is a legend that even animals like to linger around it. ( my apologies for deviating from the topic), The reason is ... |
thank you for this amazing and incredibly well researched article, the most complete one I ever came across. |
I would like two add my very small two scents: even if Musk Deers are not killed in the Chinese farms, they suffer terribly because they are wild animals that cannot be domesticated. They are traumatized, in panic and literally go up the walls. There are videos on youtube on this, google ''musk deer farming''. |
I would never, ever rely on terms like ''legally hunted'', many deer are caught in steel traps and two out of three die in vain since they are female or young! |
All in all a very nasty business that I personally definitely don't want to support. I also consider Hyraceum as a great ingredient to add an ethically derived animal note.<eot>Best Human Hair Wigs 2013 – 360 Lace Wigs, Lace Wigs, Full Lace Wigs, Lace Front Wigs, Human Hair Wigs, Affordable Wigs |
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