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fomc | 1,977 | Under the present schedule. | 5 |
fomc | 1,977 | In other words, the December minutes of 1972, they're only really four years old, is that correct? | 23 |
fomc | 1,977 | The December of '72 are less than five [years old], but the difference between now--yes, about 4-1/2. | 29 |
fomc | 1,977 | It would be exactly five by then. | 8 |
fomc | 1,977 | Then it will. As of this date, it's short of five, the December. | 17 |
fomc | 1,977 | As of right now, seven months of minutes are five years old. | 14 |
fomc | 1,977 | That's correct. | 3 |
fomc | 1,977 | If you get technical about this, what is the Committee's policy? Does it say generally after five years, or does it say January after? | 29 |
fomc | 1,977 | To the best of my knowledge, we've done it on a strictly uniform basis. | 16 |
fomc | 1,977 | We've always done it in January. | 7 |
fomc | 1,977 | To the best of my knowledge. | 7 |
fomc | 1,977 | Shortly after the next coming year. | 8 |
fomc | 1,977 | The Chairman is correct. It's been done on a collected basis. The entire year's Memoranda have been gathered together--[with] the procedural aspect taking about a month--[the entire year is] thus [released in] January of the succeeding year following the five-year period. | 56 |
fomc | 1,977 | Then the January minutes of 1972 are 5-1/2 years old now? | 19 |
fomc | 1,977 | By calendar date, that's correct. | 7 |
fomc | 1,977 | Is it not possible then to release part of the 1972 minutes and still comply with the five-year lag? | 23 |
fomc | 1,977 | The rule is not merely the language of the rule, but how the rule has been observed in practice for a good many years now. I think that's a fair interpretation. | 34 |
fomc | 1,977 | Mr. Chairman, I guess that was pretty much the thrust of my original question. Is our relationship in this such that these people are just eager beaver to have them August 15, or are they willing to sit down and counsel a little bit with Mr. Coyne and wait for January or something--could ease off---or is there some rea... | 128 |
fomc | 1,977 | I could be wrong, but I don't think the Times will take any further action. | 17 |
fomc | 1,977 | That's what I guess I would-- | 7 |
fomc | 1,977 | Not likely. | 3 |
fomc | 1,977 | The letter said they'll get them in January. | 9 |
fomc | 1,977 | Mr. Chairman, the ball, then, is in their court. Governor Coldwell said that he didn't have the authority unilaterally to take action without submitting it to this Committee. But does anyone know that this Committee is presently discussing this or that action is being taken? Does the New York Times know this? | 64 |
fomc | 1,977 | The last paragraph of my letter says that--"However, in light of the possibility that the Committee decision on the question of near-term release, the requested Memoranda . . ." | 36 |
fomc | 1,977 | I think that Mr. Coldwell's letter must be followed up by another letter which will indicate this Committee's decision on the request. | 27 |
fomc | 1,977 | Mr. Broida discussed this matter with me when he first denied the request. The reason is, I'm another alternate for a Freedom of Information [Act] appeal. I formed an opinion at that time, a very firm opinion--after Roger discussing months, whether May [is] five years, or up from May, or for April--and the more I thoug... | 225 |
fomc | 1,977 | May I raise the procedural issue of the need for a formal vote? I think that a lack of a vote, or rather a consensus, might avoid an entry of an action vote on this matter, etcetera. Mr. Chairman, I'll defer to you on that. | 54 |
fomc | 1,977 | I think that Mr. O'Connell's legal opinion is perfect. I think it's a wise pronouncement, and I think we ought to strive for a consensus rather than engage in formal voting on this issue. | 42 |
fomc | 1,977 | I have to take the opposite side from Steve. I feel very strongly that we are making a great deal out of nothing. There's nothing in the Memoranda, as I understand it, that is damaging to anybody; it's all old history. And [denial] just [attributes to] us the same attitude that we're accused of--being overly secretive ... | 102 |
fomc | 1,977 | As I understand Mr. O'Connell, he's indicated that if we do deny the request by the New York Times and if the New York Times should proceed to take judicial action, something that is quite uncertain at the present time, then at such a time we could reconsider. In other words, we might deny today. The New York Times mig... | 98 |
fomc | 1,977 | Why wouldn't--in other words, if we're forced right up against it, we might yield. | 19 |
fomc | 1,977 | Out of court. | 4 |
fomc | 1,977 | Out of court. But why do we take that position? What is there damaging about releasing this now? | 21 |
fomc | 1,977 | Mr. Chairman, I think I see one thing that's damaging. I think on the basis of the memorandum that I read before I came to the meeting, I would have shared your position, but in light of this Hannaford amendment, it seems to me that if we voluntarily change our practice, that weakens our case for getting something like... | 76 |
fomc | 1,977 | We have already changed our facts. We are defending a practice that we no longer follow. | 18 |
fomc | 1,977 | No, no we haven't changed the five-year rule. | 11 |
fomc | 1,977 | No, but we no longer keep this kind of Memorandum, we no longer do that. | 19 |
fomc | 1,977 | I know, but the Hannaford amendment provides us with an opportunity to return to the Memorandum of Discussion if we so wished. | 27 |
fomc | 1,977 | And under that amendment, Governor, as the Chairman has indicated, there would be a provision, we hope, that precludes a suit under FOIA or demand-- | 33 |
fomc | 1,977 | I don't understand the purpose of the Hannaford amendment other than that it would provide more detail for some future historian. | 24 |
fomc | 1,977 | Well that is the purpose, and it's a purpose that this Committee in the past regarded very favorably. | 21 |
fomc | 1,977 | Except, Mr. Chairman, I believe there's another element to the Hannaford amendment. That is that the minutes of the Committee will be made available promptly to the committee in Congress. | 37 |
fomc | 1,977 | Well, now, Mr. Hannaford has ideas in addition to the Memorandum. He not only has an idea with regard to the Memorandum of Discussion, he has all sorts of ideas, and undoubtedly, if we wanted to go forward with Mr. Hannaford's suggestion with regard to the Memorandum of Discussion, I think we might--I'd be surprised if... | 128 |
fomc | 1,977 | We're not sure, sir, that the Times is even still worrying about this. We had a terribly lengthy meeting this morning. Wouldn't we have every reason in the world to say that we didn't get around to any decision on this. I just wonder what purpose we serve by being so totally conscientious that we act on this and get ri... | 81 |
fomc | 1,977 | The letter says that this will be raised at the meeting today. | 13 |
fomc | 1,977 | May I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that between the two positions is the possibility that Joe Coyne might be directed, subject to the Committee's judgment, to informally be in touch with them and visit with Mr. Herbers to indicate that a discussion by the Committee indicated a consensus to affirm the action announced in the ... | 130 |
fomc | 1,977 | I think that's a sound position, Mr. Chairman. I would also raise two points on the Hannaford amendment. First--just a political judgment, it probably isn't worth the price that you're paying for it--but such an amendment wouldn't get anywhere or would be twisted around in a way that a few of our friends in different p... | 256 |
fomc | 1,977 | May I ask a question? First, I believe you characterize this as being politically inspired--partisan politically inspired. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that. | 34 |
fomc | 1,977 | I don't think there's much of a mystery about this New York Times request. And the political dimension to me is perfectly obvious. The fact that you raised the question means that it's not obvious to you, and the same may be true of other members of the Committee, and perhaps, therefore, I ought to say a word about tha... | 321 |
fomc | 1,977 | Hershey. | 4 |
fomc | 1,977 | --[that] this New York Times fellow wrote for the New York Times. The article proved to be a completed dud. But it might not have been. But the political dimension goes further. Let me speak in a purely personal vein, since the political dimension happens to apply to the Committee as a whole, but primarily to me person... | 418 |
fomc | 1,977 | Given that--and I appreciate your explanation because I wasn't aware of all the details you mentioned--but given that, should we not then consider whether or not the possibility of releasing all of the unreleased Memoranda could diminish any allegations that that was the motivation that you mentioned. In lieu of just t... | 73 |
fomc | 1,977 | Well, this is something the Committee may or may not want to do. I think it's something we ought to deliberate on very closely. I would hate to see this Committee really change its rules in the kind of political environment that exists. Now, let's assume for the moment that the present Chairman seeks reappointment. Tha... | 265 |
fomc | 1,977 | Mr. Chairman, may I make a comment. What you've been saying is quite interesting in a theoretical vein to me, but the reason I brought this, and asked you to bring it, to the Committee has not yet been touched. And that is that times have changed, and we now have a Freedom of Information [Act] which requires the appeal... | 177 |
fomc | 1,977 | But it was a decision not reached capriciously, and if that rule is going to be changed, the next question is whether we have the right political environment for changing that decision right now. And as for your decision, you made your decision, you turned it down, which was within your power, and you referred it to th... | 95 |
fomc | 1,977 | I would say, I also am concerned about the arbitrariness of this. But let me be pragmatic, which I think Larry was trying to be earlier. If we can avoid a court suit in which we have to defend the arbitrary five years, we can avoid it. I don't really care how we avoid it. And so, if a discussion with the New York Times... | 128 |
fomc | 1,977 | I want to say, shouldn't we wait until we find out whether they're going to sue? | 18 |
fomc | 1,977 | Well, that's what I said, that's the pragmatic way. | 12 |
fomc | 1,977 | If there is reasonable doubt, let's find out first. | 11 |
fomc | 1,977 | Well, this is a kind of delicate negotiation. It seems to me the worst of all positions is to let them take it to court and then we cave. If they take it to court, it seems to me we probably ought to fight it and see what happens, because we don't want the key to the kingdom being taken in case to court. | 70 |
fomc | 1,977 | Why don't we do what Tom suggested, Mr. Chairman, and give Joe another shot at feeling them out, in effect. Seeing whether he can get any clear indication of whether or not they intend to take it to court before we make a decision in a vacuum. | 53 |
fomc | 1,977 | I think, more likely, that will inspire them to take it to court. Gentlemen, I want to make these points. When I considered this matter first with Mr. Broida, I did not consider it in the context of what the Chairman has just described. I thought about it a good deal. I want to also try to reinforce the point I made. T... | 288 |
fomc | 1,977 | Does five months' difference make--is it all that much difference? | 14 |
fomc | 1,977 | Yes, but that five months applies to the other way too. Why can't they have patience for another five months. Why? But they are going to get it by January, why can't they be patient? Why should we deviate from a rule that we've established, in a political environment that could lead to mischief as far as interpretation... | 77 |
fomc | 1,977 | In the first place, I think, I'll pick up Phil's remarks. I think times have changed since four years [and] seven months ago. We've had two very significant pieces of legislation that both say this is no longer appropriate, this keeping things for five years. | 54 |
fomc | 1,977 | Well, now, but your statement is inaccurate. | 10 |
fomc | 1,977 | Well, we have [the] Sunshine in [the] Government [Act] and we have the Freedom of Information Act. | 25 |
fomc | 1,977 | Under the Freedom of Information Act, we've had one court decision, and according to that court decision, what the New York Times is entitled to is a fragmented document. | 33 |
fomc | 1,977 | It is my understanding that the legal opinion now is that if we went to court, we would not have a good chance of winning this case. | 29 |
fomc | 1,977 | Well, I have not heard that legal opinion. | 10 |
fomc | 1,977 | Is that correct, Tom? | 6 |
fomc | 1,977 | I believe that the Department's position could be fairly interpreted as saying that, Mr. Chairman. | 19 |
fomc | 1,977 | Well, I thought the Department's position was a matter of policy rather than a matter of law. | 20 |
fomc | 1,977 | Well, Steve can confirm this or not. I think in the discussion that took place, the Department took the position that it was likely that we would not succeed before a court of law, and it was [for] that reason they indicated they would not defend the position. Am I correct-- | 59 |
fomc | 1,977 | Well, I think to clarify, the Department's position was based on a number of rather bad experiences they had in litigation. The Department accepts our view [that] we have communicated to them, that the Memoranda are substantially exempt under the technical reading of the statute. I think our chances of succeeding in li... | 119 |
fomc | 1,977 | It also, Mr. Chairman, in due respect, has one decision on this matter out of District, and that's Judge Waddy, who, by his last order, required that the entire Memorandum be turned over to a Plaintiff, it being implicit in that order that he couldn't find that we're in [a] defensible position, by saying that we couldn... | 139 |
fomc | 1,977 | And that's really quite recently-- | 6 |
fomc | 1,977 | That was what-- | 4 |
fomc | 1,977 | Quite recently-- | 3 |
fomc | 1,977 | Yes, that was '75. | 7 |
fomc | 1,977 | In case my remarks are misunderstood, I want to add this addendum. We are fully complying with Sunshine and Freedom of Information at this Board, but we know what the rules are, and we're living under those rules. And my position is based on the fact that the FOMC didn't know it was living under those rules five years ... | 126 |
fomc | 1,977 | Well, Steve, if I might, the FOMC in 1972 did not know there would be five years for sure before the Memorandum of Discussion was released. We had discussions in that period. The Chairman remembers that, and we didn't know whether five years or, well, three years; the decision was made to take five and try it awhile. T... | 83 |
fomc | 1,977 | Well, that I can't say. My own recollection may easily be imperfect. I believe that the five-year rule was in effect at the time I joined the System. The Memorandum of Discussion was discussed from time to time informally within the System; the only formal discussion that I can recall on the part of this Committee of t... | 94 |
fomc | 1,977 | The Merrill suit. | 4 |
fomc | 1,977 | May I ask a question. We've recently had some congressional requests for Reserve Bank minutes and forecasts. Is it our counsel's judgment that a congressional request for these memoranda will be properly and successfully refused? | 40 |
fomc | 1,977 | No, sir, it is not. There is a specific provision in the Freedom of Information Act, Governor, that exempts Congress from that act, the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act, so that neither the law nor exemptions apply to any of the requests from Congress. | 55 |
fomc | 1,977 | Considering our very unhappy recent experience, is it your judgment that it's possible the Times could ask certain well-known members of Congress to request these for their own judgment if they were refused by us? I'm not trying to urge them to do so, far from it. I'm trying to uncover the realistic alternatives that m... | 94 |
fomc | 1,977 | Now, I think there can only be one answer to your question--of course that could happen. But I think that this comment of yours [should] be placed in context. We have outstanding three requests from Mr. Reuss, which as yet have not been granted. One request is that the 28 items that were deleted from the--28 out of som... | 386 |
fomc | 1,977 | Well, I don't know how we bring this to a conclusion, Mr. Chairman. | 17 |
fomc | 1,977 | Well, we have to seek the consensus. | 9 |
fomc | 1,977 | Well, we seem to have been going off into different directions. My own feeling, I think, is pretty close to that expressed by Mr. Lilly, that it's so close to five years that we can both defend the general five-year policy and release them in the next few months sometime--at the mutual convenience of the New York Times... | 135 |
fomc | 1,977 | I will answer that, the other interpretation could be put on it, but as far as that other interpretation is concerned, that other interpretation involves two individuals primarily, the President and myself. And I've already covered the President's part. I'm not going to cover my own. Now, as far as my feelings are conc... | 147 |
fomc | 1,977 | Frankly, Mr. Chairman, I think my personal conclusion is that we should not release the document currently. However, I think we should give serious thought to not only releasing 1972 but all the other unreleased Memoranda in January 1978. | 52 |
fomc | 1,977 | Well, I think we ought to consider that, but I do think that there is some great force in Governor Gardner's observation. And we ought not to abandon a long standing rule lightly just because there happens to be an environment right now for disclosure of this, disclosure of that. The present environment, I think, is go... | 186 |
fomc | 1,977 | Could I ask one thing more. I would be concerned if we looked like we were trying to put this information out on a defensive basis. However, the record is very clear that we are very reluctant to put this information out and it's only after [unintelligible]. I don't think anybody could accuse us of rushing out there wi... | 72 |
fomc | 1,977 | Well, let's not make pronouncements about anybody accusing us or not accusing us. We live in a political world where anything at all might happen in the way of accusations. | 34 |
fomc | 1,977 | Mr. Chairman, I think the final gun has to come down on this as to whether you need to release this information under the Freedom of Information Act request. We may not like the request. We may think that it is politically motivated, but nevertheless it is a request under a law of Congress, and if we're going to stand ... | 93 |
fomc | 1,977 | Well, there is first the uncertainty about being sued. Second, if we were to turn this down, there is the possibility of changing our view after legal proceedings are started, and that is something that is done all the time in the practical world. There is, third, the possibility of fighting this in a court of law. And... | 166 |
fomc | 1,977 | I wonder if I could ask that to put that in a somewhat different context than yes or no, because there are things in between. You mentioned one just now yourself. That is, wait and see whether we're sued, and then decide whether to settle. | 51 |
fomc | 1,977 | We have to follow up the letter that Mr. Coldwell sent, and we have to indicate whether this Committee--you see, Mr. Coldwell's letter referred to the request being submitted to this Committee for action. And therefore we have to inform the New York Times whether this Committee is granting the request for the 1972 Memo... | 93 |
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