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Sourdough Panettone 2011-finally a formula I have never inserted a word document before and I hope this is visible. Thanks to Floyd for his Lazy Man's Brioche-a recipe that is a staple in my recipe box and on which this Panettone has been based. Maybe I should call it a Panett-oche!PANETTONE 2011-SOURDOUGHA flower sce...	Panettone 2011-it's a keeper This bread has aged well in the pantry since it was made a week ago. It toasts up fragrantly and the flavors have mellowed together. I will take this out of my "In Development" file and file it with my master recipes. I know it's past season but please enjoy the recipe. I couldn't have done...
Room temperature starter with long feeding cycles I mixed up my first starter a month and a half ago, using just whole wheat flour and well water. I keep it at a low room temperature, about 60°F, and feed it about every 24 hours. Is anybody else doing this, or possibly even longer feeding cycles without refridgeratio...	9g starter, 39g water, 27g flour (roughly equivalent to 1:3.7:3.7)B: 11g starter, 38g water, 26g flour (roughly equivalent to 1:3:3)Previous feeding, 2011-1-03:
Bulking a Starter Hello Hello Hello.So I finally signed upp after lurking in weeds for manys months. Ill post something more about myself in the general sectionSourghdough bulking is my question.I finally have created a healthy starter and I have two versions currently healthy1) active on the counter2) dormant in the ...	Scaling up a starter Sixteen cups fully risen or stirred down? Is it 100% hydration by volume or by weight?It's easier to work by weight -- a cup of flour plus a cup of water makes LESS than two cups mixed (and it's really around 167% hydration by weight), but a kilo of flour and a kilo of water is always going to add ...
Stretch and fold Can any dough be converted to stretch and fold providing dough is not to stiff such as Bagel dough?	In principle, yes I use S & F as alternative, especially when I have no time to make pre-doughs.Karin
Question on using little to large amounts of sourdough starter in bread...does it really matter? Why is it assumed that:Small amounts of stater + long periods of time = Best Sourdough Bread?When we inject sourdough starter into our bread recipes, we are injecting the dough with cultures of yeast and lactic acid bacteri...	Keeping a close eye on this thread :) A great Question you bring up...I hope I have the answers but I dont... can't wait to see some replies go up.Ray
starter has a piece of something in it So I should've taken a picture. I do not neglect my starter, it feeds me like 2 breads a week.I took it out of the fridge today and noticed something pink. At first I thought it was mold, but it didn't smear or smudge when I got it out with the knife.It literally looked like pink ...	Remove it and some material Remove it and some material around it and keep going, but, look for more signs of some kind of funky growth again.Odds are better than good you'll be ok.If really concerned, take very little from the bottom, give a lot of food and just stir till it acts normally again. Enjoy!
It was SOUR ! Before I found this site I had never tasted sourdough bread but fell in love with the photos of the lovely looking breads baked here. So I jumped right in and with a lot of help from several kind people at TFL and lots of trial and error I eventually had a starter ! So, Tartine book in hand, I proceeded t...	There's nothing wrong with not liking sour. There's nothing wrong with not liking sour.While a little sour is OK, I find the intense sour that is associated with San Francisco sourdoughs to clash with just about anything I can serve it with.Most wine? Clash. It accentuates bitter.A delicate sauce you slave over all day...
Peter Reinharts Seed Culture I began working with yeast last year and have gotten pretty good at every day regular breads. Now, I am trying to get started with sourdough and hope someday to be able to do what you can do! I wrote to this forum several weeks ago with my first failed attempt.My problem is this: I am worki...	This might raise a lot of eyebrows, but the two or three times I had to start a starter from scratch (having accidentally used all of my mother starter) I just followed the simple "flour/water/that's all" method I found in the "French Farmhouse Cookbook" 2001:http://hanseata.blogspot.com/2009/10/wild-yeast-seed-starter...
Wet dough final proofing and spreading Hello,I tried out a 1:2:3 (starter:water:flour) loaf using 150:300:450 respectively. On the final rise my dough did increase in height by maybe 1/2 of the original height, but definitely grew horizontally. It didn't seem to be overproofed according to the poke test. It seems al...	A couple of suggestions My first forays into wet doughs had the same problem. I eventually learned that my gluten was not sufficiently developed early on, and that was part of the problem. Assuming your development is good, then try doing the final rise in a banneton or other basket or even a bowl lined with a floure...
200% Starter Does anyone keep 200% hydration starter if so what has been your experience using it, how does it effect taste	Using 200% rye starter Hi, I am using it for Russian Rye a la Andrew Whitley and find it quite consistent.Others have different opinions and experiences.Discussions in my blog:http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/25661/russian-rye-makinghttp://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/25608/russian-rye-and-really-simple-sourdough-whitley0...
using IDY instead of juice to begin a sourdough starter GreetingsA sourdough starter needs only flour and water, right?We use juice in the first 3 days to provide acidity that prevents bad bacteria from invading the starter, allowing natural yeast to develop and take over from there, correct?If so, why not use commerci...	Sorry No bacteria can come near a yeasted doughThat assumption is incorrect.
100% hydration starter looks too thick I'm getting a sourdough starter going the cheater's way- I used just a wee pinch of commercial yeast to get things jump-started. I'm awful, I know. Purists may feel free to sniff skeptically and feel superior... they are! I always kill my all natural starters.The problem isn't to ...	100% Starter or Poolish 100% WW will be thicker than 100% white. You can search for more info on particulars of WW cultures.I find that 100% hydration pre-ferments start as slack dough and then become more liquid or batterlike as they ripen, with over ripened starters becoming very runny.Did you just make the poolish f...
Sourdough starter feeding times and how it affects proofing time Hello,I'm relatively new to sourdough and had some questions. So far I've been going off of Ed Wood's Sourdough book as well as some posts I've read from here. Now to the questions: 1. Sourdough feeding time. Lately I've been feeding my sourdough star...	Three suggestions 1. Throw away the book. It will mislead you and it will take a long time for you to discover the errors in your "learning".2. Keep less starter (1g is impractically small; 100g is unnecessarily large) and elaborate a smaller amount up to the quantity you need in one or two stages just before you use ...
bread deflated Hi everyone this is my first post here. Have had sourdough for years but have just used it for pancakes. Getting onto bread baking. Today I had a beautiful risen loaf but when I slashed it it deflated. What did I do wrong?Dick	Overproofed Sounds like it was overproofed, pci. You never want the final proof to go to 100%, because there's no place for the bread to go but down. Aim for around 85-90%, and, of course, always watch the bread - never the clock.BTW, welcome to TFL.
Why different starter hydrations Is there a reason to make starter at one hydration or another, meaning that aside from it changing how much flour and water is used in a formulation, does the crumb or taste vary if the starter is at 50% hydration as compared to 100%? What is the effect of using stiff starter instead of...	Thanks. The link was Thanks. The link was helpful, though I was a biology major in college and the article was still challenging. Jerry
looking for liquid levain pointers Hey Guys,All of the starters I'm keeping are doing fine. I have some nice whole wheat going, some rye, and my every day sourdough starter. All of them are kept at a 100%, except for a bit in the fridge of my "daily" SD, that I keep in a more solid state for emergencies (=when i forget...	pointers an old thread but a good onehttp://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/1040/lesson-squeeze-more-sour-your-sourdough#comment-5449Mini
Cinnamon Raisin Sourdough - Autopsy Hi guys, need your comments on the crumbs of this sourdough which I made it last weekend. The details of the sourdough are as follows:1) As cinnamon (1%) inhibits the yeast activity, i increased the levain to 20% and lengthen the bulk fermentation to 4hrs at the ambient temperature o...	A little longer in the oven perhaps. A little longer bake would most likely answer most of your questions. Crumb looks good but the crust is a bit pale. To quote a famous "Tifler," "When you think it's done, give it another five minutes." :) (maybe another ten or fifteen) :)
Banana sourdough? i have been tryin to make a new starter since my old one died on my and when my starter was still in the growing stage i added a bit of sugar to "lift" i up a bit and well now it is quite active and doubles in about 8 hours and is less than a week and a half old. i havent baked with it yet but the day...	I'm sure my cultures "mingle" Nothing seems to rot in my house anymore. It cultures. I had a squash puree on the counter in a cup for a few days. It got forgotten in my 65F kitchen by being pushed behind something. It soured. I made a starter out of it and had great squash bread.I do kefir,villi (Swedish yogurt), sauer...
sourdough starter drying out Hello allIt's been a while since i've posted on this site, i always find the best informationa and advice here. I've been practicing a few ways with making a starter. Used pineapple juice in one of them, Peter Reinharts technique. All his recipes have been working for me and has been a grea...	Hi, Ghazi! and welcome Hi, Ghazi! and welcome back.I store my starter in a glass cup and encase it in a mini loaf size plastic bag with a zip. Link is here.Alternatively, i use a regular plastic container (transparent) , invert it on the cup and strap it on with a rubber band.
Bread won't brown properly I can't seem to get my SD bread to brown properly. It ends up being cooked inside to over 205 degrees. but outside is pale. I bake it at 450 20 minutes covered with aluminin roasting pan to make crisp crust. Then turn down to 425 uncovered until inside temp is about 205. It just never gets ...	Check oven temp Do you have a well calibrated oven thermostat? Are you sure that 425°F is really? I suspect not, but there are a number of things you can do: Don't reduce the oven temp when you take off the cover. Bake without the cover (or at least take it off sooner) and see what the color is. Add some sugar to the ...
Jake's first sour dough rye bread (wish me luck=:-) FYI, I bought the culture I'm using for this bread from the fine folks at Breadtopia. The starter was delivered (looked like a small pancake) in a slim plastic bag. I revived it using two Tbs each of water and flour, all placed in a small bowl mixed together. The s...	good luck! good luck!
rolls Please forgive me I did a search but still wondering? If I were to use my favorite basic sourdough bread recipe but instead of forming loaves formed rolls? I would like to make the dough on Sat and retard overnight so I can bake fresh rolls for Christmas dinner. Can you retard rolls the same as loaves? Thanks for...	Sure you can! Retard the bulk fermentation (the first rise) overnight in the refrigerator and next morning,allow to come to almost double rise on the counter. Shape,proof,bake. ORMake Friday evening and retard overnight to Saturday AM. Rise to double,shape,proof to almost ready to bake(don't want them to overproo...
Bulk fermentation I think I can tell when my bulf fermentation is done I'm learning how the dough should look and feel, but how can I tell if I have gone to far, it seems that there is a long time frame between dough being complete to over fermentation. Is this the case, for the most part if bulk fermentation is done a...	Let the dough decide, not the clock Most formulae offer a time for bulk fermentation, but that time is highly dependant on many factors (ambiant temperature, ambient humidity, etc etc), so it's best used as a guideline only. Most recipes also say something like "or until it doubles." Here are a couple of tricks to help...
smelly sourdough hello all,i am quite new to baking (not more than 2 months), and trying to follow and learn things from here and other sites. 2 weeks ago i decided to start my own sourdough (i am thinking that i might be a bit too unexperienced for that but i went for it anyway). with feedings and waiting patiently st...	can you be more specific as to the smell? rotten? chemical? really really sour? composty? nail polish removerish? :)what is your feeding schedule? (hope you have one) and at what temperature is it kept? the more you can tell us the easier it is to help.
foul smell Greetings Every time I start a new sourdough starter, it catches a bad foul smell, so I throw it away. I'm really disappointed and don't know whether I should abandon trying altogether.. It seems that where I live some bad bacteria are contaminating the air. Or maybe its something in tab water. I tried disti...	Keep on with the process! Keep on with the process; the foul smell will eventually go away. Debra Wink discovered this was due to a strain of bacteria called leuconostoc that seems to be more prevalent in flour now than it was formerly. This bacterium is self-destructive as it produces acid that inhibits its growth....
sour starter Has any one tried building 2 separate starters a weak (less fed for more sour flavor) and a strong one ( for a good rise) and using them together the help to produce more sour bread	Good option Yes a mixed/separate srarter(s) is a good option. One for flavor and one for yeast. Go for it and report back!Jim
Vermont SD Bulk Retard I am planning on mixing up a batch of Vermont SD this evening. I've never made this bread before so I thought I'd give it a try. Due to timing issues, I would like to mix the dough tonight, bulk retard in the fridge over night, shape and bake the next day. The original formula tells you to ret...	retarding You can retard at any time. It will take an extra hour or so to get back up to temperature and to rise. The flavor should improve due to the extra time of permentation. There should be no problem with oven spring, or anything else. Go for it!Ford
Exploding sour dough on overnight rise Hi All, this is my first time asking a question in this forum. So here goes. As you can see, my sourdough exploded out of the bowl on the first rise. I used the recipe from "Don't Be a Bread Hostage". I've made this many times before and this didn't happen. It calls for the ...	It happens! Sourdough has a mind of it's own, and can be more or less active depending how it's been treated, especially with regards to temperature. I wouldn't worry too much about it. You can re-use the spilled dough, but if it has skinned-over, fold it in well so the skin will soften and re-absorb.I always use a p...
Organic apple peel sourdough starter I saw this on New Scandinavian Cooking. A wild yeast starter made from organic apple peels. I was intrigued and thought I'd give it a try.So far so good. In here are the peelings of 4 apples along with spring water to cover and two tablespoons of dark brown sugar at day 3. And...	Looks very alive and ready to go. Cool way to start a sd. Keep us posted as how it goes. Have fun . Patrick
Feeding starters How much effect does the feeding ratio of sourdough starter have on the sourness of the final dough. I know slow cold fermentation will make dough more sour as well as a firmer starter. As far as feeding a starter goes will a 1:1:1 ratio make the final dough more or less sour than a 1:3;3 ratio, or ha...	Clarify Are we talking storage starter? If so healthy maintenance is key. Strive for a balance of yeast and bacteria. If the storage starter is fed 1;3;3 it would take longer to reach its peak as opposed to 1;1;1. Any attempt to develop more sour should be done with the building of the starter into the amount needed fo...
Crusty sourdough rolls Hi all, Was wondering if anyone had a good recipe for Crusty sourdough rolls. I will be having a prime rib dinner with friends on Saturday and thought this type of bread, served with butter, would be a great accompainent. TIA!	EVOO I've had some success with brushing my rolls with olive oil after the initial rise in the oven to develop a nice crust that doesn't weaken as the rolls cool.
Different type starters I had no problem making my starter with the pineapple method and it has been going on for a couple of months now. It doubles in about 3 hours and peaks in about 4 hours at about 2 1/2 to 3 times it size. then starts to fall. I wish it were a little slower . There are plenty of varied recipes to ...	ratios You shouldn't need to change your starter. One of the easiest ways of changing the rate of your starter is to vary the feeding amounts. You didn't mention how you are feeding it, but if you are using a 100% hydration starter, it sounds like you are using a ratio of 1:1:1 or 2:1:1 starter:flour:water. Try usin...
Atta (whole wheat) Sourdough Bread Hi!This is my first attempt at Atta (whole wheat) Sourdough Bread. I should point out that in effect this is a 80% whole wheat as the starter I use is fed with Maida. The recipe: Att	240 gmsWater: 180 gmsThe above was mixed by hand and then the “stretch & fold” method applied a few times before putting the dough in the refrigerator over night.Salt: 6 gmsThe next morning the salt was added to the dough with a few “stretch & fold” moves.Starter: 112 gms (70% hydration of Maida, hence 60 gms. Maida)Th...
How strong a starter can be? GreetingsI wonder how strong a starter can be.What is the average time a sourdough starter takes until the dough is doubled in size?When we first make a new starter, can we keep the feeding process of discarding half and replacing it with equal amount of flour and water for more days, or we...	The fastest I've heard The fastest I've heard of starters raising dough is within 4 hours. Those are starters that are being specifically engineered to be less sour. I'm fairly sure it can be trained to raise faster than that, but why not simply use commercial yeast? You're elminating/vastly reducing the population/str...
Bulk fermentation and proofing I finally have been getting some decent loaves thanks to everyone advice. I have been bulk fermenting in a clear bowl (best advice I ever recieved and would recommend for every beginner) and not keeping track of time at all just going by the amount and size of holes in the dough viewed ...	Fallen dough would be the Fallen dough would be the first sign of overfermentation for me. An effect to the dough could be less/no oven spring when baked due to lack of CO2 trapped in the dough. Also depending on fermentation times you could end up with a sweet bread that's not so sweet for instance.. This is mentio...
Seed Culture I am following Peter Reinhart's receipe for Seed Culture/Starter (page 38: Artisan Breads Every Day). Phase 1 went well. I went on to Phase 2 the stage that is supposed to take from 1-4 days. I noticed yesterday that when I stirred it it was foamy underneath the surface, but smooth on top (no bubbles). I w...	How cold? Foamy underneath is a good sign to move to the next step. How cold is the room? Move on to the next step.Jim
Am I creating a low hydration starter or underfeeding? I have a starter going, but I think I'm going to goof it up so here's my question. All the discussions on firm starters and 100 hydration starters etc got me thinking.... In order to create enough starter to do something with, I added equal grams of water/flour to ...	Am I on the right track or am I overthinking this again? Susie- You say you started with equal weights flour and water. So, you started with a 100% hydration starter (a 1:1 ratio). Had you started with, say 100g flour and 60g water, you would have created a 60% hydration starter (60:100). Had you started with 100g f...
Wheat to Rye Starter? Just curious if it is reasonable to make a rye starter using my wheat starter? If I feed some of my sourdough wheat starter with rye flour for a few days will I get something that resembles a rye starter?For what it is worth, I've had a rye starter in the past but it tends to slowly loose its pote...	It's called inoculation. You use a bit of one starter to build another one.I keep a white starter and build whole wheat or rye ones from the white, but you could build from a wheat too.
Starter Feeding Ratio I refresh my starter by feeding 1:2:2 for 5 hrs at 25C, by which time it is doubled. I then feed 1:1:1 and leave it on the counter for an hour before putting it in the fridge for storage (5 days at 9C).(I am talking here about running starter refreshes as a separate process to levain builds - I kn...	. My first reaction was the fridge at 9C. Is that an ordinary fridge with milk, meat etc. too or one for specific uses? A fridge for every use should be 0-4C for food safety, and at those temperatures the yeast activity from sourdough seems to come to a complete halt. I don’t know about 9C though.When most people talk ...
Please Help With Refining Shaping Technique - Norwhich Sourdough Recipe I have been working with Susan's (Wild Yeast) Norwhich Sourdough recipe to practice my bread baking skills and I have a question about the shaping steps. After a 2.5 hour ferment it says to turn out the dough and divide it and preshape the dough p...	Shaping Sourdough In general, I try to handle the dough gently after the bulk ferment is complete. Sourdough loaves don't recover as quickly and the bubbles are a good thing. You can pop any large surface bubbles that would burn but I like the look of the darker thin pockets. Hope this helps.Eric
Levain with 2 starters redux Just baked my "regular" sourdough yesterday and decided it truly is the best bread ever. It's Hamelman's 'Levain with 2 starters,"on pp. 162, 163 of Bread. It makes keeping that second, rye starter worth every minute it takes (not very many at that). We just cut into it last night after ...	Gosh Darn! That is an awfully nice looking loaf of bread, Joy. I love the added taste of rye, so I'm really looking forward to the rye starters added flavor. Don't think mine will look quite that nice, though.Gabe
Bulk Fermentation Time I know there is no definite answer for this, but as a starting point should I use the time it would take for my starter to double in size? After feeding my starter I'm going to check every hour and see when it doubles and use this as a rough time for bulk fermemtation when I bake.	Maybe May be better to see when your starter has peaked. In my experience a starter can triple or more. It is ripe, ready for use, at peak or slightly prior to.Jim
cracked top of whole wheat sourdough bread, why? Hi everyone,I'm new here and I'm sorry for starting to post without having introduced myself. Hope you don't mind if I don't. Ok, I'm a woman, using grams and Celcius:)I have tried "almost successfully" to bake sourdough bread a couple of times.Today, I thought to make ...	Not knowing your recipe or having seen pictures, it's hard to tell. Did you score the top at all? How big exactly was your pan?
I think I broke 'Biff'... I think I may have over-heated my poor starter today. I gave him his weekly feed and placed him in the garage, like I usually do. It's warmer than the house and he can bubble at will undisturbed. It didn't dawn on me to check the temperature in there until 2-3 hours later only to see the therm...	Not sure about the bacteria But yeast should be hearty to around 115 or so. I doubt you killed biff, but he may be a little worse for the wear.
Starter "cycles"? My starter often seems to work in cycles. It will be happy and active and bubbly and wonderful, making loaves that puff up like nothing you've ever seen out of whole wheat, then after a number of months it will falter. I'll get a month or more of half-hearted bubbles and mediocre rises paired with a...	Tell us more I think there are a number of potential factors that influence your situation, but we need more data to do even a speculative diagnosis.How long is the starter out before you refresh it? And at what temperature would it be when you refresh?What is your refresh ratio?How long do you leave it out before you ...
Problems Help I have been baking sourdough using basic sourdough bread recipe from Teresa Greenway' DiscoveringSourdough. I made a proofing box and bulkrise at 80 temp and 65 humidity for 4-6 hours using the proofing box I rise for 4 hours, shape boules and then overnight in refrigerator, when I shape them I can alrea...	Hi,I am not familiar with Hi,I am not familiar with your book or recipe so my comments are general in nature. I believe that your proof is too warm and too long. A slower cooler proof will produce better flavor. A heated humid proving box is designed to control a faster proof and not needed in a home situation.When ...
Recipes please.... I have a starter sitting in my fridge....It is whole wheat - been active for about 2 months. Looking for a T&T (tried and true) recipe for tommorow's baking practice.So far I've been doing this:500 g whole wheat flour100 grams starter12 grams sea salt375 g Water 1. - Mix - - then fold 4 directions ...	Starter preparation? I suspect you may not be preparing the starter to perform at it's best. Are you removing the starter from the refrigerator, and feeding it 2 or 3 times over a period of about 24 hours?
Mixer help needed for Polish Country rye Background: I have made over 100 loaves, mostly using the sourdough "no-knead" meathod. Now I have a 300W Kitchen Aid mixer on loan. I have tried the following recipe several times: http://www.lkphd.com/baking/2010/7/8/polish-country-rye-bread.htmlMy problem: gluten never se...	Sorry about the 1/2 post Sorry about the 1/2 post above. Here is the rest:Q1: given the acidity and quantity of the levain, and the 15% rye content, should I simply expect that windowpane is impossible? Otherwise, what am I doing wrong? I am following the recipe exactly, including autolyse, and everything. Only d...
Highly Efficient Gluten Degradation by Lactobacilli and Fungal Proteases during Food Processing: New Perspectives for Celiac Dis Have you seen some of the cool research showing that gluten sensitivity is lower in naturally fermented baked goods? Here's a link to a cool article from Italy showing original gluten at almo...	Thanks. That's the kinda Thanks. That's the kinda thing that I'm interested in. It will take many reads to absorb though! Luckily I'm not a coeliac but I believe that the Chorleywood_bread_process is indirectly responsible for the growing number of people who are and we need this kind of research to turn things around ...
Starter goes Grey on top Hello all, I have recently started working on my starters again after having about a year break. I have noticed I am still having the same issue as previously & wanted to ask for advice/opinions. I have 2 starters. 1 is all organic, unbleached white plain flour. The other is 100% rye. I feed th...	It happens Is this normal starter behaviour if stored on the fridge?It isn't abnormal with longer storage, but generally you don't see much, if any, grey after only a week.Is it safe?yes, but it may be telling you it needs more rigorous refreshing on the weekends.My best,dw
I wonder why do we have to add yeast in Sourdough Rye Bread? I'm starting to move to the Sourdough Rye Breads section on Jeffrey Hamelman's Bread cookbook. After flipping through the recipes, I noticed that Hamelman included commercial yeast in (almost) every single SD rye recipe. The recipes also have short fermentati...	yeast You don't need yeast to make rye, but it will give you more insurance to get some loft in the bread. You might want to increase the percentage of starter in the final dough however. The easiest way: experiment. You don't want to retard rye. Rye has a lot of amalyse enzymes which will attack the starch and cause a...
Cinnamon, Sourdough and Retarding I know when cinnamon is added directly into a dough commercial yeast has to be increased due to the chemical compound cinnamic aldehyde ('Bread' pg. 237). I frequently add cinnamon to my sourdough and commercial yeasted loaves that are only fermented for a few hours the same day they a...	Cinnamon I've noticed that Bread with cinnamon is a bit fussy about being refrigerated too soon. When I make a whole wheat cinnamon raisin starter I try not to refrigerate it at too cold a temp, if at all, and not until its pretty active. When I've refrigerated it too soon I've had some pretty bad results and had to ...
Barley malt extract What will the addition of 1 tsp. barley malt extract do to the dough for a loaf of sourdough? Any pros or cons?	Depends on fermentation length. If you're doing a long, slow ferment, then the malt syrup is just added food for yeast. One teaspoon won't do much of anything, but too much and fermentation grinds to a halt. I don't know why. (Maybe the yeasties get drunk on malt syrup happiness and just go to heaven or sleep or someth...
Where to buy sourdough culture? Hey, yesterday I've seen a great danish film about a baker who had 18 types of cultures and the light bulb has been switched on in my head. I've a working culture from Reinhart's book and using it with great success, but would like to experiment with new ones. Do you have any idea where ...	Try NyBakers They will give you some. You will have to pay for the shipping though.www.nybakers.com
Starter smells like nail polish remover. Hello!I've neglected my poor sourdough starter in the refrigerator for far too long...I'm ashamed to admit that it could have been left as long as 3 months. When I took it out to refresh yesterday it had gray hooch on the top and smelled like nail polish remover. I mixed every...	Thank you. It IS looking and Thank you. It IS looking and smelling better today:) I was fearful of poisoning with my next loaf! I AM relieved I don't have to throw it out; I had struggled when I first made it 2 summers ago.
Storing Stollen in Australian heat Well it's stinking hot here in Australia. I've just made my Christmas stollen for the second year. My question, if anyone can help me, is this, do I glaze it with melted butter/oil and dredge with icing sugar now, and then how do I store it in this heat? Or... do I NOT glaze and d...	do you have a freezer? Well, I suspect that most methods of bread storage won't work for a whole month no matter what ...even before considering butter and icing and hot weather. (Unless your intention is for the fruit to generate that funny alcoholic flavor I remember from wedding fruitcakes:-) Which brings up a coup...
Starters In terms of whole grain starters, what does it mean when the recipe ask for a starter 150%? What is the 150%? Someone please help me. I have used sourdough starter in regards to sourdough pancakes according to me Grandmothers coments. Pinch of this, Dash of that ect. You know eyeball stuff. She never sai...	it is a reference to the hydration of the starter the hydration (water content) of a starter is measured as a percentage of the weight of flour contained within the starter. For instance a 150% hydration starter is would have 150grams of water for every 100grams of flour, a 100% hydration starter would have equal amoun...
Too dense and crumb problems - please help Hi All,I have been making sourdough bread for around a year now and after a variety of "experiements", although the bread forms and tastes good, it is far too dense and the crumb is moist (it is more like an English crumpet than bread). I have been using recipes from "Bread Al...	You say "approx 3 hours" and You say "approx 3 hours" and "around 1.5 hours". By what criteria makes you pull the trigger for the next step? If you are relying on time, especially for the final, and the temps are up more than other times of the year, you could be easily over-proofing. What you describe is something we ...
VERY active starter even in the fridge Hello,Rather new to bread making.I have 2 starters:First starter - was started on October 15th which puts it at about 30 days old. It was made with Gold Medal Whole Wheat flour and water. It sat unrefrigerated for approx 6 days with daily feedings before I determined it was read...	VERY active starter even in the fridge The best that I can calculate is that my starters (both the "First Starter and the "Second Starter") are at approx. 117% hydration. I'm not even sure that I'm doing the math correct:I'm using approximately 3/4 cup of water to 1 cup of flour which equates to approx. 177 grams of w...
Is my starter good enough... or am I making the bread wrong? Hey All,Well after many attempts, I finally seem to have something that looks and behaves a bit like a home-made sourdough starter. I made it with wholewheat bread flour (strong flour) and water, generally putting in half as much water again as flour when fee...	Wholemeal Flour Have you baked bread before with that flour, so that you know what to expect from it with instant yeast? I ask because I have found that my loaves are better when I soak my wholemeal flour in water during the time my pre-ferment is fermenting. In my case this is overnight. In your case this would be ...
Tried and tested 100% whole-wheat sourdough recipe? Hi, I'm sure you will tell me I am mad or stupid but I am new to sourdough and want to bake a 100% whole-wheat sourdough from day one (rather than ease myself into it using white). I know it's harder, I know the final product will be denser but my priority at least fo...	Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book. 2003 or later. Updated edition, 2003 or later.https://www.amazon.com/Laurels-Kitchen-Bread-Book-Whole-Grain/dp/0812969677?tag=froglallabout-20Every recipe is 100% whole grain.--Good luck, and bon appétit.
starter rises fast I began my starter 6 days ago. I am using WW flour. After feeding it, it quickly doubles in size, and then begins to collapse soon after. It seems to rise for about an hour and then shrink back down to the size it originally was. Is this normal?	oh and.... I guess I should also address my other confusions. First of all, I'm new to making bread. Ive only started in the past year. Last week I decided I wanted to attempt this starter. So it's all very new to me. I began this starter following instructions I found on another website, before I found this one. The ...
Lost my oven spring Are there any particular methods or techniques or advice of any sort for getting great oven spring out of my bread? At one point I had beautiful oven spring, around 2-3 inches, but not any more. My dough rises beautifully on the counter, then only rises about 1/2 inch or so in the oven. The brea...	Are you, perhaps, proofing Are you, perhaps, proofing more than you used to? If you loaves have risen to very near their full capacity before you put them in the oven, then there won't be much left to give over to oven spring. The trick is to get them about 7- 8 tenths of the way before baking and then leave the rest...
CONFUSED! mother starter vs starter vs ??? (how to use) Hi all... first post!!anyway... I have a backyard WFO now, and living in Berkeley am lucky enough to have world class bread available around the corner. But making my own stuff is fun, so instead of just pizza thought I'd try some bread.So I got some sourdough ...	Mother Starter A better term would be storage starter. Which is elaborated/expanded/built into the amount needed in the final dough.Jim
Can a Starter be Too Active? Hi everyone,I'm new to your forum and to starters/bread baking. I've done a little bread machine baking (actually dough kneading) using commercial yeast and maybe a few loaves on my own with my KA mixer, but that's about it. I've not had any total flops, so I guess up until now I've been ...	A jar can trick you... ...into thinking it's overactive.If the cap is too tight, the pressure builds up inside the jar, making it seem like you have a very active starter–it'll seem to double and triple in no time under pressure.If, when you open the jar, you can hear gas escaping, the jar is too tight.
crust on dough I've noticed the last few times baking that before I actually put my bread in the oven to bake the top has hardened, though thin, and almost looks like it's already baked. I tried oiling the top once, lightly and another time I put a damp cloth to cover while it was rising. Is it even something to be c...	I wish I could give it a feel because... My guess is this: that hardening of the outer skin is due to its drying out. You're on the right track with oiling and with the dampened clothe. Try letting this dough rise covered loosely with plastic wrap which has been oiled. I'd probably make sure that the container in w...
Crust on starter I've been using a starter off and on for a few years now and just this week, twice, I've seen it develop a hard crust on the top as opposed to a watery liquid that one might normally see. The only thing I can pinpoint that was different was that one time it was in a rather small glass container, in th...	Crust on starter problem My guess is that you'd not have a crust if you covered your starter with an air-tight lid. However, since starter can be dried out, crumbled, and put into a plastic bag for air transport (thereby avoiding having to throw a jar of the prescious stuff into an TSA bin during a security check), I...
starter Help!! Ive been hanging around here for about 2 weeks now... i am new to making bread and i am getting BBA soon.. But i decided that i would try a sourdough starter anyway. so i started off with 1 Tbsp of WW and 1 water (day one: saw nothing) 2 tbsp WW and 2 water (day 2) nothing... 4 tbsp WW and water (day 3: ...	Pineapple Juice Check out Debra Wink's Pineapple Juice Starter method. I have found this to work every time and skips the stinky phase. If you want to keep using the one you started, you have to keep feeding it and not let it starve enough to get the hooch. It takes time to get the stink out, and I always hated that pa...
Cinnamon toast falls apart Hello everyone!I recently rolled out a piece of my sourdough bread dough and gave it a good brushing of melted butter, a sprinkling of sugar and cinnamon. I then proceded to do a tight roll after which I placed it in a pullman pan. The bread baked beautifully and the taste is great! My only c...	reduce cinnamon separation with water Common problem (probably partly because cinnamon inhibits yeast growth). See this thread for a fuller discussion.Solutions seem to be a) put all the butter on your toast in the morning, rather than some of it in with the cinnamon when baking, and b) get the dough wet with water wh...
Stouts and Porters I really likes me some thick, dark beers. Anyone got a recipe idea for a sourdough that can make use of some of the excellent chocolate stouts or chocolate porters that are out there? Flax, spelt, soakers, x% rye flour or whatever are welcome, but I'd like to avoid sweeteners and fats, unless you can...	Beer Breads I've made this a few times and enjoyed it immensely. Use the search tool here using stout beer and beer bread and you find a few that have been done. My last batch or two I used a nut brown ale I brewed. That was good but I liked the one I did with Guinness Black the best.Eric
HELP WITH BEGINNER SOUR DOUGH RECIPE - BEST PLACE TO START? Hello. Today I received my free sourdough starter (thank you NY Baker!). In a few days it will be ready to go. Can anyone offer suggestions on a sourdough bread recipe for a beginner? I understand it is wise to stick with one recipe while you learn the rop...	You are correct that it is a You are correct that it is a good idea to stick to just one formula for a while, until you get familiar with the process and timing. Then you can branch out. Two of the most commonly suggested starting points here on The Fresh Loaf are SusanFNP's Norwich sourdough found here and David Sny...
Just wanted to share an "oops" I left my starter in the fridge intending to bake with it, two weeks ago (maybe longer? I'm not sure). So today, I went, why not just feed all of it then bake something? So I dumped my starter into a bowl, 300g. So now I have 900g of starter because I was intending to bake two loaves of b...	Here you go I use the King Arthur waffle recipe and double it! It makes a huge amount of waffles which I undercook slightly and freeze in parchment paper and plastic bags and we have toaster waffles for weeks. They are as good as new. Here’s tons of ideas linked below. https://www.google.com/search?q=sourdough+discard+...
bulk ferment and autolyse Hi Freinds, those with knowledge of baking.What is the difference between Autolyse and bulk ferment?	Autolyse an bulk fermentation Professor Calvel advocated the use of a defined rest period, or autolyse, between the incorporation of ingredients on first speed and the gluten development on second speed. The interval of rest was typically 20–30 minutes. When the dough is allowed to rest without agitation, the gluten-fo...
Retard Levain Only? Is it possible to cold retard a biga or poolish for a day or two? I assume that if I did so, I could take the leavain out with a little more flexible timing and finish the loaves on a day of my choice (within the retardation time frame). Would the finished loaves be distinctly better or worse if I r...	"Is it possible to cold "Is it possible to cold retard a biga or poolish for a day or two?"Yes, then bring it to room temperature and continue with the process"I assume that if I did so, I could take the leavain out with a little more flexible timing and finish the loaves on a day of my choice (within the retardation t...
Over night retarding of Hammelman's Vermont Sourdough: how to tell if it is proofed Hi.I am basically making Hammelman's Vermont Sourdough... I over night proof in my fridge. In the am how can I tell if it is pfoofed enough????	Whether it's cold retarded or Whether it's cold retarded or proofed at room temperature, a finger-poke test is one of the most reliable methods to judge a level of fermentation. Either wet your finger-tip or sprinkle flour/semolina on the dough, poke your finger on the dough (1 - 1.5 cm deep). If the dough bounce ba...
Doubling Recipe = double the starter? Just wondering... when I'm doubling sourdough recipes, do I double the starter called for as well? It seems like an awful lot. What about higher multiples?I'm using Maggie Glezer's "My Sourdough Challah" right now, and she provides two versions: one calling for 400g flour and on...	Yes Yes, using baker's percentage you would double the starter. I seem to recall her being pretty detailed about why she did things like that. I don't have the book any more, but her challahs are great and I still make them.Edit: corrected below.
CONTAINER FOR SOURDOUGH STARTER What is the best container to use to store my sourdough starter, glass or can I use plastic?	Mine live in smallish Mine live in smallish (1litre?) square plastic food tubs with plastic lids from LakelandHTH
a few questions plz :) hi, i started my starter a few months ago following the birk st method in the book. at first i would follow the exact feeding amounts of water and flour. but with time, i got lazy and now i just keep it in he fridge and from time to time, refresh it, but i don't measure the flour and water.i do...	I wouldn't say it's "wrong," I wouldn't say it's "wrong," but for recipes, it's helpful to know the basic hydration of your starter - like how thin or thick it is. Some recipes like a thick one, almost like a dough, some prefer thin, like pancake batter. But as long as it's bubbly and happy, you're basically doing fi...
Sourdough and Commercial yeast I have seen quite a few recipes using both sourdough and comercial yeast together. BBA has some and I think it is usually done to speed things up, can these be safely converted to all sourdough by just incrasing the rising time or increasing the amount of starter, or are there other reaso...	More as a poolish. I don't know for certain, but many of the ones I've encountered use large quantities of sourdough starter as if they were using it less for its leavening capacity and more for the characteristic flavour it imparts when used in quantity. It's almost as if they're using the sourdough itself as a poolis...
My sourdough starter keeps dying. What am I doing wrong? I have been attempting to keep a sourdough starter alive for more than a three week stint for over a year now and am having terrible results. I use P. Reinnharts BBA recipe and all seems to go well initially. The starter is virulent after the first feeding and af...	stop putting starter in fridge Add 4 grams water to 4 grams of your starter then stir in 8-10 grams wheat flour. Amount depends on strenght of flour—weak AP flour will need 10 grams, strong bread flour will need only 8 grams. After 8 hours, repeat the process by starting again w/ 4 grams of your room temperature refres...
Maintaining a starter I have been baking sourdough bread for a couple of months now almost every weekend. I don't understand why we keep more starter than we need. Constantly discarding some or finding other thing to bake with it. Why can't a small amount of starter be kept in the refrigerator than taken out a few days...	You always want to work with a fresh starter, that is, one that was fed the day prior. That said, I am assuming you know exactly how much starter you need for what recipe. Just plug all of that into an Excel spreadsheet and it will compute for you how much starter you have to have in order to bake a particular bread.Th...
Is there a recipe for a softer sourdough bread? Hey all!1 bread I have never made it sour dough.. I just never liked it growing up(it was my moms favorite so it was always in the house) so I just never made for myself.But I recently found out that a bread my husband LOVES is sourdough.. but it's different, the outside ...	The steak looks tasty too! Here is a recipe you might want to try: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23061/extremely-sourdough-soft-sandwich-bread-most-shreddble-soft-velvety-ever
Making a starter, when to do the next steps Preface: I have made made multiple starters and baked with sourdough for six years.I wanted to make a new starter since I wasn’t sure about the properties of my current one after periods in the fridge, unfed on the counter a day and feeding workflow. It rises well and works g...	Stir at 12 hr intervals, when Stir at 12 hr intervals, when there is little to no rise after 12 hrs, feed. How much doesn't really matter, go by the above and you'll find the right schedule. Enjoy!
leavening versus fermenting I've been thinking about leavening and fermenting with bread making. The books I've been reading are Jeffrey Hamelman's Bread, Peter Reinhart's Whole grain breads and Artisan breads every day, and Chad Robertson's Tartine bread.Both Peter Reinhart and Chad Robertson state that the sour flavo...	Only one problem... yeast ferments food too. It is possible to ferment without Lactobacilli and just use yeast.
cheesy sourdough bread i just made a new firm sourdough starter after my first died and some good advice from the forum and made 2 loaves of small batch bread in the past 6 days about 300g of flour. its a whole wheat starter and both breads tasted like cheap cheese because i bake at night and the first and second day i...	airtight? Is the container so airtight that it might be going moldy? I've ruined a couple of loaves by putting them in something airtight while they were still a bit warm. I generally use my microwave as a breadbox (just set the loaves inside on the floor) -- it seems to keep things from drying out, but still lets them...
Bulk fermentation needed when using sponge starter? Hi guys, my question is..... When using a 50% sponge starter, is a bulk ferementaion of the final dough required? I've never used it up until yesterday when i made some crusty rolls, and the result was no where near as good when no bulk ferementation was used. I found...	yes but less! Sounds like there are multiple factors at work here that could have impeded the success of your rolls.First off, to address your primary question, yes you still have to have some bulk fermentation, even when using sizeable pre-ferments (50% is a lot of pre-ferment!) What's important is to not have as muc...
First time starter troubles I tried my first starter this week. I used Peter Reinhart's Seed Culture recipe in The Bread Baker's Apprentice (seep p.229). After 3 days, following the feeding directions exactly (even weighing out the water), my starter has not shown the slightest life, and a gray-ish surface has formed...	Getting a starter established Hi thereMany TFlers have had success using the method outlined by Debra Wink. Reading her contributions in these two posts will also help you understand what is going on:http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10856/pineapple-juice-solution-part-1http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10901/pineapple-j...
what's it called when......... You chop off a chunk of your current dough that has been made from a chunk the last batch and a new biga?Whats the chopped off chunk from the previous dough called? Or isn't it? Or is it a technique called .............	Pate fermente Here's a link you may enjoy reading: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/6429/039old-dough039-vs-pate-fermente
Tips on retarding? I've had my first attempt at retarding recently, and it was a little lackluster. Less than the usual oven spring, predictably a denser crumb, and the crust was oddly less crisp. The flavor was good, though. I'm guessing I simply didn't let it warm up long enough, but I don't know.My loaves are about ...	Overnight retard-great taste but proofing can be tricky I overnight dough in the refrigerator all the time. I make a WW dough,throw it into an oiled large plastic container and throw it in the refrigerator to be baked the next day.I find it is a balancing act,at times. You want flavor but it is easy to over-ferment an...
Starter Sex / Contact High? My starter, prepared using the Tartine method, was fine for months. Last week, it suddenly stopped rising after being fed. For about a week, I discarded and fed it daily, but to no avail. No rise at all. About a week later, I was given a small amount of powerful starter from a local bakery. ...	coincidence How many insects do you have flying/crawling around your kitchen at night? :)I think just because things happen at the same time does not mean that they're related. The timing of feeding and temperature are more related and #2 would have my support. Cold starters move very slowly. If you rush a cold sta...
50% Whole Wheat Sourdough - First Attempt Here's my first attempt at a sourdough with 50% whole wheat. I'm about 75% pleased with the result.I've made a few sourdough loaves over the years, but have mainly used my starter for pizza dough.I used a 100% hydration starter modeled loosely on the one described in Tartine Br...	Looks tasty! I keep my starter a 50/50 AP/WW mix as well. I just alternate types every feeding rather than mix. I think it gives a much deeper flavor than pure AP. I grind my own WW, and have found that 100% WW starters don't perform as well.
123 starter has anyone kept a starter by feeding it 1:2:3. ihave been keeping one healthy but havent baked with it yet. it takes a little longer to mature but it does double and smells wonderful	speedracer, are you feeding speedracer, are you feeding by volume or by weight?
Why and how to lower the hydration of my starter? What are the advantages of having a 50-60% hydration starter rather than 80-100%?How do I turn a 100% starter into 50-60% starter?Thanks	Link in archives http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/13069/am-i-creating-low-hydration-starter-or-underfeedingAlso search under: changing to a firm starter or liquid vs firm starter
Crispy crust for days? My crust is pretty chewy, even as recently baked. After the first day it doesn’t get any better. I store it cut-side down with no cover. It softens up if covered, but also lose a lot of flavor.I sometimes buy sourdough bread from bakeries and they often got a very crispy crust, almost like cracke...	You guessed it. Bake longer. and get the inside loaf temp up to 110° After removing the lid. "No guts, no glory." :)
Sourdough starter Hydration Ratios: Thin vs Thick: How they smell, and how do they affect the final loaf. How "sour" does your starter smell?When I use my soudough starter (typically about 6 hours after the final refresh), I remix it well, blow off the CO2, and take a whiff: it usually smells like vinegar (acetic acid;...	Debra Wink's contribution on TFL a good place to start Suggest you read Debra Winks' material, and accompanying comments:http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10375/lactic-acid-fermentation-sourdoughand her numerous contributions to Nico's thread, keep reading!:http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/14913/very-liquid-sourdoughHer...
Why is my starter so sticky I have switched to a 50% hydration starter . If I have 300 grams of starter I feed it 100 grams of water and 200 grams of flour. I t doubles in a few hours . Why is it so sticky? I thought 50% hydration should be pretty dry, after feeding and mixing I have to scrape it off the spoon or my fi...	Salt Now you have an idea of how dough behaves without salt.Jim
Sourdough from Fruit Yeast Water? First I have to thank all of the contributors to this forum. Your collective powers of investigation and lively discussion are directly responsible for my happy liberation from commercial yeast -- forever, if I so choose. :)I nurtured lots of viable yeast in a fruit water medium, play...	SD and Water fruit yeast Hi Elodie,Personally I didn't try to do it this way. I have a Rye SD living nicely for the last 18 months. After I had successfully made the water fruit yeast (which was a new subject for me. I think it was the same for a lot of us on TFL) I decided to use this water yeast to feed the SD instea...
A Rebellious vinegary Starter hey im a bit new here, and i made my starter about 5-6 months ago. and it was the greatest starter in the world!! great flavor, incredible dormant to awake timing(less than 4 hours lag!!) i could even use it straight from the firdge to the dough and it would rise tromendously with great ov...	Restarting I would take a small amount oif the stiff starter, say 1 Tablespoon, and add 1 ounce (weight) of chlorine free water and one ounce of whole wheat flour. Late in the day add another ounce of water and another of flour. Day 2: throw out half and add equal weight of flour and water. Repeat that evening. By ...
Help with my starter Hey guys,I'm new here and new to sourdough. I've been reading a lot of advice here. I tried a starter from flour and water, and while there was a very small amount of bubbling and now nasty smells - it never really got going. Only a few tiny bubbles every appeared on its surface and while it didn't...	Hello XtremDough Getting a new sourdough starter up and running can be a delightful and exasperating exercise, sometimes at the same time! Just about every new starter has an extremely active phase in the first 3-4 days which, if you haven't been down that road before, can trick you into thinking that your new starter...
Starter Suddenly Not Rising I have had my starter for about 6 months, and it has been fairly consistent, both doubling itself after feeding and yielding good bread.I used it for baking loaves last weekend, and everything was fine. It was fed on Friday, and then I took a break from feeding for a few days and started re-...	Sounds like the starter yeast went dormant. And will take a few days to wake up. Sounds like it starting to wake up. About what temperature was the starter for the long 4 days? Feeding a dormant hooched ripe starter proposes its own problems because you want to raise the pH by feeding it flour but you don't want ...

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