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Using a firm starter Is there a method for using a firm starter when a liquid starter is called for in a recipe?Thanks for any suggestions you can offer,Frank	A couple ideas There are at least a couple ways you could go about it. First, you could convert a portion of your firm starter to a liquid starter. Try using 10 grams or some other small amount of firm starter and add 100 grams each of water and flour and you will have a version of a liquid starter that is also refre...
Sourdough Pizza Dough Recipe I am looking for a pizza recipe, preferably sourdough. Do you have any favourites to share? Also, can a thin-crust be achieved with sourdough? All replies are very much appreciated. Gosia	According to this.... ...search it can. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=how+to+make+thin+crust+pizza+from+sourdough&btnG=Search
Help, my beloved starter died. Good Afternoon: A crisis has happened to my sourdough bread baking! After 6 weeks away to my homeland, Thailand, I came back(4 days ago) to find that my very healthy starter died. My husband who promised to maintain it swore that he had feed it regularly/every Sunday per my easy instruct...	Replacement starter Mantana, Hi.I understand the frustration of losing a starter. So perhaps I can help. I am in Reston, VA (Fairax County, outside of DC) and have two starters, one regular white sourdough (kept at 50% hydration) and the other a rye "sour" (rye sourdough starter - kept at 100% hydration). I can "deh...
What is wrong? So, I had a sourdough recipe that worked really well for me. The loaves were coming out golden and brown, crusty, a light crumb... I was baking the loaves in a standard oven. Just before putting the loaf in the oven, I would spritz it with water and put a cup of boiling water in the broiler pan. Then we ...	Check Oven Temp Get an oven thermometer and check oven temp versus what it is set at. My guess is that it's running cool.Another thing, though I doubt that it is the issue: Depending on how far you moved, your sourdough may be different, (maybe better, maybe worse, but different). A new location has new wild yeasts on...
Bubbles on the dough surface? Is this normal? Dear all,I am fighting now in the 4th or 5th round with Hamelmann's Vermont Sourdough with increased whole grain. I used the metric column and broke it down into grams via Excel. During the final hours in the fridge bubbles appeared at the surface of the dough in the tins. ...	normal? in what normal? in what context?!Understand that every recipe out there is guide with an example result. This is especially true of recipes using sourdough.What you've got here is a dough lacking strength and that's the technical reason for the big surface bubbles.Using stronger flour, less water or more stretc...
Tartine method in my life I’ve never been one to follow a recipe to a tee. I recently read Tartine Bread and it got me thinking how to manage my time so I can bake on days I work as well as days off. So essentially, what I out of the book was that the baker can manipulate time and temperature to make any time frame wo...	Tartine Bread We make 15-17 loaves of this bread each week. We bake for friends, family and ourselves. Our routine is to make the leaven late at night and let sit out overnight, make the dough in the morning and proof in bannetons overnight in the refrigerator. It proofs for 12-15 hours, comes out the next morning and ...
The Sour of the dough I have had a healthy starter for almost a year and half now. I bake a loaf and in turn this feeds my starter. I get a good rise out and my loafs come out nicely but there is just one thing, the degree of sourness is not apparent in many of the loaves. I just baked off an oatmeal sourdough sandwich...	Check out this thread. There Check out this thread. There are a lot of good ideas on how to get a sourer sourdough. Hope this helps. Perhaps you could also add what ratio you feed your starter at, how often you feed it and at what temperature you keep it. Some indication of the recipe you are using will help, too: p...
Community Bake featuring Kristen of FullProofBaking It is exciting to have Kristen of FullProofBaking as our featured baker. For those that are not familiar with her work, take a look at this link for her bio and other related information.For those that may be new to our Community Bakes (CB) check out the initial post ...	This will be my first attempt This will be my first attempt at lamination, I will be watching and rewatching Kristen’s videos. Benny
tartine madness continues... hi gang,the march tartine madness continues at my house!! my wife and i have peanut butter toast every morning on the french country bread! so we got the sandwich craving for a tartine tuna melt. this bread is so amazing! i can't believe how successful this bread bakes up following chad's e...	Fresh sushi grade tuna? Now Fresh sushi grade tuna? Now that's a tuna melt!I love Tartine's 70%ish whole wheat. Lovely holes, even better taste.
Tasting sourdough starter....what should we be looking for? When we are tasting our sourdough starters what should we be paying attention to in terms of flavor and sourness and how should we use it as a diagnosis in order to improve our starter? How does the flavors of our active starter correlate to our finished loaf...	Goofd question In my experience, both as a home baker and professional baker, a healthy starter should have a marked degree of tartness/sourness - taking a taste should be somewhat like experiencing lemon juice.Interestingly, this doesn't translate the the finished product - unless you live in the SF Bay area which has...
Best book for sourdough beginners? Hello, I am looking for a good book for someone who is new to sourdough baking. I'm particularly looking for one that really teaches you what is going on inside your dough/ starter and can help me understand what I am doing- not just a collection of recipes and instructions. Right n...	Sorry, I don't have a Sorry, I don't have a suggestion, just bookmarking this thread. :o)Dennis
Kefir Sourdough Starter: initial observations and concerns Here is my experience with kefir as a component used in sourdough bread making.Summary: When adding kefir milk/curds/whey to my typical slow-ferment (no-knead) bread dough recipe, I find the quality of the gluten to be degraded: the dough tears more than stret...	using milk kefir to leaven bread. Welcome to TFL!I can't think of why it would leaven bread by itself, unless there was milk in the dough. If the food for the kefir is milk sugar and one feeds it flour where is the kefir to find lactose to eat and release gas? Have you tried adding milk powder to the dough?Kefir and...
Starter triples in 8 hrs- now what? I have a good starter (I think) that is tripling in 7 hours. What do I do know? Do I put it in the fridge? Also, how do I use it in a bread? How do I convert a yeast recipe into a sourdough? HELP PLEASE! I want to make great sourdough breads but I'm still having a hard time chainging...	Now what? Put it into the fridge if you don't want to use it soon. Rather than try to convert one of your recipes, why not use a tested and trusted sourdough recipe. I would recommend Norwich Sourdough; I use it frequently even after several years of baking sourdoughs. Also, you can use the search feature on this site ...
Daily bread Started up a sourdough culture last Sunday. Baked with it today and yesterday with very happy results. Previous to the sourdough I had been using a '5-minute bread' recipe and making a large batch on the weekend, then refrigerating it and baking a third at a time enabling us to have fresh bread several time...	not sure I frequently put my sourdough dough overnight in the fridge - but I've not tried doing this for much longer than thatI guess if you do with a low quantity of starter, it might work - why not give it a try? Let us know what happens!
sourdough APPLE IPAD app Hi AllAnyone tried the Apple sourdough app. Looks interesting but no reviews.	Whats wrong no TECH GEEKS Whats wrong no TECH GEEKS out there
starter turned orange-ish I am on starter #2 now, and it's going the same way as starter #1 :( It's starting to turn orange and smell sickly sweet like non-acetone nail polish remover :( It's the end of summer here, and temperatures are between 12C and 22C. I don't think it's to cold :(Am I doing anything wrong?I'm fol...	It used to be a pale It used to be a pale yellow. As you can see, it's slowly turning peach :(
Converting sugar/potato flake/water starter to just flour/water? Can I convert a mature starter my friend gave me (3 tbs. potato flakes, 1.5 c. sugar, 1 c. hot tap water) to a regular flour and water starter? I really just want to use ap flour and not use potato and sugar. Is this possible and what would be approx amou...	added 1 c. each flour and water So I'll see how it goes...
Starter micro flora and the fridge...Gerard Rubaud's drying method I was doing some reading on Gerard Rubaud (very interesting baker) and caught this:"Gérard feeds his levain every five hours, which means that he never sleeps more than five hours at a stretch or leaves the bakery for longer than that. When he needs to ...	How a leaven is kept is what determines its character As you feed a leaven more often it becomes purer, in the sense that it becomes more a technical aid rather than for flavour.I keep an Italian sourdough which is fed every 4hrs, kept at 28C and fed with white flour.The most important factor for flavour is the flour. ...
oven spring Hello,I've been making sourdough loaves for some time now - largely with much success. However, I've recently developed a problem with oven spring. It just isn't happening really. My loaves are acceptable, but that final rise in the oven has stopped. Why? Perfectly risen overnight rounded loaves of springy ...	Kitchen Temperature? Where do you live? If your kitchen is warmer now that July has arrived, then five hours might be too long for the bulk fermentation. Also, the temperature of the water will influence the initial dough temperature, which will impact the length of the bulk fermentation.Do you have a photo of the cr...
gummy Levain texture and final dough texture Hi everyone,I'm just starting to work with sourdough/levain starters and I had some observations that I wanted to ask about / verify. (I used PR's Crust & Crumb pain au levain recipe, which uses a mild starter).1. My mild starter, begginning on day 3, had a very gummy textu...	Observations normal. Understand that the yeast and bacteria need food to survive. Enzymes will breakdown the flour to provide a food source resulting in the dough qualities you describe.A final dough having these properties means you'll likely end up with a dense loaf. Either you have used too much starter, or the star...
Best stage to use the starter Hi :-)My new starter of 15 days seems to be ready. To check, I wish to bake the first loaf. I am looking around for an easy beginners loaf to start with. Meanwhile can anyone please tell me how/when should i use the starter ?Should I use the starter just after feeding it ? or when it has p...	http://www.wildyeastblog.com/ http://www.wildyeastblog.com/2007/07/08/my-new-favorite-sourdough/I've been using that recipe for the past two years with consistent success. As for when to use the starter itself, I like to feed mine about 12 hours before usage, not so much for flavour, but I will know for sure that my st...
Jason's Quick Ciabatta au levain I've been making Jason's Quick Ciabatta lately and decided to try it with a wild yeast starter instead of the commercial yeast. Except for a greatly prolonged initial rising, it performed much like the yeasted variety. Instead of the 2 teaspoons of commercial yeast I used 200 g of act...	Nice looking ciabatta, Paul And I expect that the flavor was lovely, too. Paul
What on earth happened?!?! Shame on me for admitting this, however I have not baked sourdough in over a year due to a much too busy life. With that being said, I pulled out my jar of rye start tonight to discover the horror's of MOLD!! Why is that the case? I always use clean stainless steel utensils when handling my s...	You left your starter too You left your starter too long without refreshing it and it has gone moldy. I have heard of starters surviving six months in the fridge, but longer than a year is probably more than the average starter can stand. Having said that, someone is most likely going to reply to this thread and say t...
AP or Bread Flour/ I am on the eve of day 4 of my starter. I was wondering if it would be better to use KAAP or KABF?Thanks!!	go for cheap It won't make a difference. Don't waste bread flour on this.
Going for awhile I'm g0ing to leave my mother starter for two to three weeks. I have some dried but want to know if there is a desired hydration level to slow fermentation? I've read that starter will revive after long neglect but how to slow it down? Thanks Patrick	Make it as stiff as you can Two or three weeks in a fridge for a stiff starter is no problem. Just stir and then knead in flour until it won't absorb any more, put it in a container so that it doesn't dry out and put it in your refrigerator.When you get home, take a chunk out of the middle and add enough water and flo...
PRE- SAINT PATRICK'S DAY...RUEBEN SOUP...SERVED IN A RYE SOURDOUGH BREAD BOWL...USING THE TARTINE METHOD.... hi gang,a little pre saint patrick's day...my wife is half irish...she came up with this recipe for a RUEBEN SOUP...served in a rye bread bowl...we used the tartine french country bread recipe...but substituted ...	What? No green bread, soup or beer? Still, it looks delicious anyway :-) Nice Job !
Is there such a thing as too strong a starter? I finally have a starter that I'm letting get strong enough to keep and use. It's 100% hydration, fed with King Arthur AP flour and spring water at a 1:1:1 ratio. Currently it's doubling in 16-20 hours, and I'm continuing to feed it as it gains in strength. I expect it ...	I've never been lucky enough to have too strong a starter so I wouldn't know but, I am a qualified expert at being too weak a baker.
Sourdough Starter Questions When it comes to sourdough, I'm a newbie. I have been baking bread for years but have always been intimidated by sourdoughs but I have decided to finally try. I started the process yesterday using SourdoLady's starter instructions (wheat flour and oj). Obviously I have quite a few days in fr...	Also a sourdough newbie As I understand it, the change over to white flour is to keep the organisms down to the ones you've activated in the first three days. There shouldn't be a problem with feeding whole wheat flour.Any discarded starter is still starter, and can be fed with other flour to develop another starter, ...
I totally forgot my dough during the bulk fermentation.... So after 9 hours of bulk at 27° (10% starter / 85% hydration / 25% whole wheat flour)), the aliquot jar showed a rise of approximately 95%What would be the best move in such a case to save whatever can be saved and limit the damage??I pre-shaped immediately + r...	Best thing for a dough too Best thing for a dough too far over is a pan. Knead it, shape it, proof in the pan, bake. You'll eat it! Enjoy!
Understanding newborn starter maintenance Hiee :-)I tried making a wild yeast starter over a year ago and after two failed attempts (lack of patience) gave up. Now again i am bit by the bug and am on the 2nd week (10th day) of my new starter. This time i loaded myself on patience and seem to be doing well so far.I sco...	Reading the post... dlstanf2 starts with 50g to feed to make approximately 100g total. My personal opinion is that dlstanf2's starter is maintained on the verge of starvation. See what feeding (1:1:1) does and watch your starter not only double but peak or reach maximum height. Use a narrow marked container to meas...
TARTINE LEVAIN TARTINE USES A RIPE LEVAIN IN HIS RECIPE. RECENT VIDEO SHOWS DURATION OF ONE TO THREE HOURS NOT 12 TO 16 HOURS ACCORDING TO ORIGINAL RECIPE. ANY COMMENTS FROM ALL YOU WONDERFUL BAKERS ,WHICH I WANT TO THANK FOR YOUR EXPERT INFO.	A ripe mother starter is used to build the final leaven. A 'ripe starter' usually refers to a culture that has completely run through its cycle after feeding (doubled or tripled, fallen completely, and smells of vinegar). Depending on your specific conditions the timing may vary. But following the books instructions an...
knäckebröd I've been making a knackebrod using a pure rye leaven and either a groft (stoneground) rye or a fint (fine) rye. But... although it is a good taste it is rather jaw breakingly hard - a lot of crunch with no softness at all. Should I be using a combination yeast/leaven or just yeast? If so what sort of amount...	Knaecke Knaeckebrot (sorry, my keyboard won't let me type the Umlaut), as we Germans call it, is not supposed to be soft. However, it also shouldn't be "jawbreakingly hard". You should end up with a light, cracker-type flatbread that is easy to bite, yet breaks and is crunchy at the same time.What is your recipe? A qui...
Gluten develpoment with 20% Buckwheat Roasted Garlic and Potato sourdough I'm looking for some help. I just finished making a loaf with 20% Buckwheat at 70% hydration. As expected I wasn't able to get any gluten development in my dough. I did some stretch and folds after mixing on second speed for 3 minutes (kitchen ai...	you worked the dough too little I always work with rye, that holds back gluten development even more than buckwheat. Recently I prepared a dough with 33% rye(not even ordinary rye, but a variety with much more fiber than usual) and 67% bread flour that came together very well, but I had to let my clatronic stand mixer ...
Still working on it, getting better I've been quiet, but am still working on this sourdough thing over here! I really only have time to bake once a week, or once every other week, so I haven't been able to get in as much practice as I'd like. However, I think that things continue to improve. My last loaf was actuall...	Looks pretty good for a Looks pretty good for a mistake! I wouldn't mind a slice of that myself. I am in the same boat as you regards baking time: usually only once a week and sometimes only every other week. Sometimes I manage to bake more than one loaf on the same day but it does require careful planning. You can ...
active starter HelloI have been able to chieve a nice rye starter after many months of patience. When it comes time to bake with it, do you have to stir (degas) before you spoon some out or is it perfectly fine to just use without mixing after it has doubled in size? How often should you stir it up?Ghazi	What I do - I do not degas particularly, but then again I am pretty relaxed about how much starter I use. Most people here will weigh their starter, if they're being careful about how much to use, so volume doesn't matter much. If you want to be precise, you can either weigh or, I suppose, just follow the same steps ev...
Poll: Source of Variation Among Starters Oh I'm sure this has been asked, answered and debated here endlessly. But having tired quickly of sorting through >100 screens of Sourdough & Starters forum posts and replies, I decided life is too short and I'll ask again:How would you good people rank the relative strength of...	the flour and the water used in feeding and maintaining it ... the temperature and the maintenance schedule. These are the most important factors and they can vary considerably resulting in variations of starters. Don't know what you're looking for. Hope that helps you. :)
Big time beginner question Okay, I hate sounding like a novice, which is EXACTLY what I am, when it comes to bread baking, especially sourdough. I have been keeping a starter going for about 10 days now. It is a very liquid starter. This is probably gonna make many of you smile and shake your heads, but what is the ...	Re: Beginner question When you feed your starter it then consumes the nutrients in the flour and the yeast cells multiply into even more yeast cells (a LOT more). This means you have millions of hungry yeasties wallowing in their own waste (the nutrient exhausted food you gave them). During the process of fermentation ...
Sourdough starter from whole wheat & cumin Sourdoughs starters methods vary. Here is one from a Julia Child program featuring Joe OrtizAlways good to know if you can't get a starter started, try a different method (but please don't think you are capturing yeast from the "air," they come from the flour)http://youtu.be...	Amazing!! Mini Oven,Your timing amazes me. This is the bread I just posted! I wasn't aware that Joe Ortiz had done a demonstration with Julia Child until I saw your post. I loved watching this. Thank you! Here's the post I just put up today of the same bread, same procedure, cumin and all: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/n...
Stir the starter to delay feeding? If I stir the starter after it has peaked and started to collapse, it will start rising again and can do so for several hours.Is there any point to this? Does it make a difference to the starter if it’s stirred or not if the feed arrive at the same time later that day? Can this have a...	Concentrates it, makes it Concentrates it, makes it what is called stronger, at least in my book. Enjoy!
Timing Ok, I will try to post this again, please excuse if it is a repeat. I understand now that my starter needs to be fed before I build a levain.1. Is it more important to feed it at a particular time before I build a levain, or can I just feed it "the day before"?2. I usually start in the kitchen about 10:00AM, wh...	Time to Start This is not an easy question to answer definitively. It really depends upon the strength of your starter, and the temperature of your kitchen. A temperature of 69°F is a little on the cool side, but is workable. I usually have a starter that is on the sluggish side when I start, because it has not been ...
I'm hyperventilating LOL I just put my FIRST loaf of gluten free sourdough bread into my dutch oven........I WILL NOT open the oven and take the lid off to check it before time! I WILL NOT open the oven and take the lid off to check it before time! I WILL NOT open the oven and take the lid off to check it before time!....	Good Luck! Sending good bread Good Luck! Sending good bread vibes in your direction!
Levain building and ripeness for sour instead of leavening? When we are building our levains we are told to use them when they have doubled in size (liquid) or when they have domed (stiff). When we continually feed and build our levains aren't we selecting for yeast (rise) over bacteria (flavor) by doing this?In my he...	Truth be told I've read quite a bit about sourdough; some very technical stuff that boggles the mind. All in all there are no absolutes when it comes to sourdough. Many ways to do it and many different results. In the end it's what works for you. It's like life; some decisions work out others don't, some information wo...
refusing to rise Last night I started a batch of WW sourdough using the recipe from Peter Reinharts artisans book. My mother is plenty active and I have made this same bread several times with great success. This time however it has failed to rise at all after resting in the fridge overnight. The only thing I am doing ...	For what it's worth, my starter, which is usually stored in the refrigerator and is slightly lower hydration than your bread, takes about a week to peak at those temperatures. It isn't completely stalled, but darn close. I suspect that your bread is doing the same.For an overnight retard of sourdough, you really only...
100% rye bread using Tartine method Has anyone had any success making an all rye bread using the Tartine method? I have successfully used the method to make variety of breads but one I attempt it witfine mix of fine & coarse rye I'm not getting a rise. I created a rye starter. Have read a lot about the difficulty of wo...	Rye is a different animal If you know all about goldfish - and then try to keep a hamster in your fish tank - he won't like it too much.Usually I tell people who ask me how to make rye breads that the most important step is to forget everything they know about wheat breads.A 100% rye will be dense. There will be oven s...
Don't understand I am making Sourdough and I split the batch in half. I shaped individual sized baguettes with half the dough and a boule with the other half. There is no yeast or levian other than Herman, my starter. I was expecting about a 12 to 15 hour rise time because its cool here in So. Cal right now. I put the ...	One idea, aytab The boule is one larger mass with a relatively small surface area to volume ratio, rather than two smaller ones with relatively high surface area to volume ratio like the baguettes, so the heat generated by fermentation is not so easily lost. And it is in a relatively small space (the dutch oven) inste...
non-rising starter question Hi thereI've been making a starter using Reinhart's recipe in BBA.It's smelling like it should after 4 days (I'm coming back to sourdough after a small break) and I'm more or less happy with it. It's bubbly and I can see loads of small bubbles all down the sides of it; it's starting to smell...	Doing fine You may not see any real activity for a while. This is absolutely normal behavior for a starter. It can take a month or maybe even more to get some real rise out of your starter. That doesn't mean it's bad, it just means the yeast haven't reached a point where their numbers and strength are sufficient to rai...
best ever sourdough loaf Sorry, I just had to tell people about my latest bake - this is a sourdough loaf, using the recipe from my course with Tom Baker @loafonline. I've had trouble getting my starter to maintain it's heart, so having taken advice from all sources, and particularly azeliaskitchen.net, I refreshed my ...	You should be pleased as that You should be pleased as that is one great looking bread.Jeff
sponge - fail Hi all, I am new here, I put info in the intro. forum.I am new to sourdough, 4 wks. today. I have 2 failed attempts at waffles w/o a clue as to why. I did successfully make a choc. sourdough cake.This morning I was anxious to make sourdough bread. My starter was on the hungry side (insomnia messes up t...	Hmmm Hello Jan and welcome to the Fresh Loaf! The first thing I wanted to ask is what kind of time frame are you talking about here? You said you were in a hurry, yet a starter can take hours to become active and can have a tendency to slow itself down when you project that you're in a rush. :) Also, what percentage of...
Starter won't rise I have a 75% whole wheat starter I've been maintaining for about 1.5 years. I've followed Peter Reinhart's method in his Whole Grain Breads book. It smells right, as far as I can tell, but it has never risen well -- on its own or in a bread dough. Any thoughts on what I could be doing wrong?Thanks,...	What's the temperature of the starter and the dough when you are raising it? Is the water very cold?
Changing schedule I started my sourdough starter three days ago, naively I did it at 4 pm. Now I get to a point where it needs to be fed every 12 hours and I need to move the schedule to something more convenient. How can I do that?	I would imagine you'd be fine I would imagine you'd be fine if you did it incrementally. Wait until 5:30 or 6 one evening, then feed it early the next morning whether that be at 6 or 7 or 8, and adjust until you get the rhythm you like. 12 hours is a useful number but exact precision isn't necessary.
starter has blue spots on the surface??? i'm learning the basic sourdough technique as outlined in the "TARTINE" bread book that i recently purchased.i'd love to be able to master this one... i followed the instructions for making/developing the starter. i used a 50/50 mix of gold medal whole-wheat and all purpose. i...	Fear not! Your blue-ish spots are most likely little gas bubbles. After that short time you can't expect a distinct smell, yet. Everything seems fine, don't worry.Karin
To start with a conundrum, Stiff or Wet? I've noticed that a few recipes entail using a stiff or wet starter. I am on my third starter. The very first, I threw out too early believing the odor to be indicative of rot. The second I ignored the odor and made a delicious sandwich bread but failed to hold back any starter ...	Some thoughts If you want extensive and scientific discussion on the topic of firm and liquid starters and the flavor profiles that they bring to bread, let me suggest that you use the search feature on these pages and put in "Debra Wink".Beyond the discussions of acetic versus lactic flavors and high and low temperatu...
Slow growing starter I am making a rye flour wild yeast starter using the instructions in Reinhart's Whole Grain Breads. My first attempt never seemed to work so I discarded and tried again. This time it was quite active until I got to the point of converting my seed culture to a mother starter and he says the rising h...	Keep going Keep discarding and feeding. It will get there!
poolish or starter I am making the foccacia from BBA, and I was wondering if I could just substitute my Vivian (my adorable 100% starter) for the poolish. Anybody have a thought?	Yes Yes you can defnitely make that substitution. Be aware that your starter (I am assuming that it is wild yeast) will behave very differently than the poolish but it will make a great bread. Use all of your skills to judge when the dough is sufficiently proofed.Jeff
Italian sourdoughs and breads analysed A recently published scientific paper looked at the cultures of 19 different Italian starters and the breads they produce. Might be of interest to some people. I'm linking to a popular write-up, which has a link to the full published paper.Jeremy	Thanks This is of interest to me considering panettone and similar breads/cakes are my speciality.
levains, or preferments? Hi all: I had good success last week and now want to try again (sorry ;-) )My starter is lovely and treating me very nicely thanks to all of you. But, now I need to get clear in my mind what is a levain, what is a preferment--are they different in some way, or just different words for the same...	Terminology is a big deal for me. Why? Because if only we would standardize our usage of terms, we could communicate better.I've gotten a lot of criticism on these pages for using the Bread Baker's Guild of America's definitions. Now that they have made them available on the www.bbga.org page for anyone, not just me...
Why do I keep two starters Hi everyone,I've always kept two starters - one wheat, one rye. Well I say always, I've only actually been using sourdough for a few months. At first, I kept them at 100% hydration and stored in the fridge. I bake roughly every 4-5 days, and alternate rye and wheat bakes so each starter is on...	Loads of different systems ... If you search this site you get an almost infinite number of ideas about this.The system that works for me:I keep a fairly small amount of starters in the fridge (about 100g each) and refresh them once every two weeks or so.Of these starters I use small amounts - typically 20g - to inocul...
Bigas, soakers, & mash I'm new to Peter Reinhart's Whole Grain breads. I've made the biga and soaker formulas a couple of times so far. I've measrured with a gram scale but they both consistantly turn out more like a batter than a dough. In his book, he says that both should be the same hydration and feel of the final ...	I don't have Whole Grain I don't have Whole Grain Breads, but I do have The Bread Baker's Apprentice and in the latter Reinhart includes a recipe for a biga which has a 66% hydration. A 66% hydration dough is nothing like a batter and although it is not as firm as a dough that contains salt, it can be kneaded easily b...
First True Sourdough Loaf My patience with creating my starter has paid off, I finally decided the little guy was vigorous enough to be forced into labor. I put together a small loaf so that I could do a test run, and get some confidence that my cultured yeast could do the job. First, the money shots......Ok, I have ...	Nice, Rich!! 16 hrs Nice, Rich!! 16 hrs retardation apparently did not consume all the sugars in the dough, so you had ample left for the crust lovely color. This is lovely.you should have given it an hour more final fermentation, thats all.
Slowing the starter Hi All, I have generally been following the guideline that when you feed the starter, you double it each time, i.e., if starting with 100g of starter, when you feed it, you need to get it to 200g, then 400g, etc....I follow a 100% hydration starter that i built years ago, following Nancy Silverton's...	A few tips There are a few things you can do that will make the burden smaller.The first thing I'd recommend is to reduce the amount you keep by quite a lot. You can easily and safely cut it down to 50g, which should save you quite a lot on flour and effort.Next, increase the amount of you feed it and decrease the amo...
Day 5 of my starter...what 's now? I started 5 days ago with a rye starter with some Apple juice...anyway it looks like it grows every feeding I am at twice a day...1) Does it have to grow 2 times or 3 times? It does grow every time (twice a day)...so I guess it is finally working, right? I started collecting the disca...	My thoughts 1: No. It depends on many factors. Flour used, hydration, ratio of starter to fresh feed etc. 2: Yes. Look up starter discard recipes in google. 3: See no.1
Struggling to bake with Gilchesters flour Hi all,I've been baking for a number of years, and while my default loaf is fairly hands off and lazy, I’m not a total beginner. I just changed suppliers - moving from Marriage’s (prior to that, Shipton Mill) flour to Gilchesters and the change in flour has knocked me off kil...	need more clues. When you say "flat", do you mean the dough never rose, or do you mean that the dough rose and then fell/deflated?You might have to start in the morning, and if you can, observe its behavior during the bulk ferment during the day.I went to the Gilchesters web site, https://gilchesters.com/product/unblea...
English Muffins, good but doughy So, after 10-11 days of discarding half my starter, it was finally at the point yesterday where saving half to use in a recipe seemed like it would be ok (and possibly beneficial in the flavor category.) I used the KA English Muffin recipe that's been posted here a few times, and mixed...	Some suggestions, Rich Very pretty muffins, by the way. Here are some ideas try for your next batch:1. Roll the dough a bit thinner2. Allow the muffins enough fermentation time to be light and airy before they hit the griddle3. Turn the heat down to allow for more cooking time without burning4. After flipping them to ...
First loaf I've been lurking on these forums and sourdough.com for some time. Finally found time to get a starter going last week.Starter is 20% org rye, 80% org white. Using spring water at 100%. It was surprisingly easy to get going, just followed all the advice - room temp, feed daily at start then 2 - 3x day after ...	Looking great ! Wish my first loaf would have turned out this nice :)
Adding Cheese to Whole Wheat Sourdough My whole wheat sourdough bread has a delightful tang to it that my husband believes will be made 100% better by the addition of cheese. If anyone has added cheese to theirs I would love to find out what kind worked out best, how much was added, and when it was added to the dough. ...	Cheese A good mature cheddar such as Mull of Kintyre, Keen's, Green's or Quick's would be good or even a nice mature Comte. Then, of course, there's always goats' chesses.
starting a second Country Bread, but first a question Hi Gang,I recently made the Tartine Country Bread and it was very fun to make and eat. I'd like to do it again, but I need a little help. In step 4 of my recipe, Chad says, "Save your leftover leaven; it is now the beginning of a new starter. To keep it alive to...	It depends... Frank-The leaven (or levain) that you save is just your starter and it really depends on how you store it. If you keep it on the counter and feed it daily, then you can use that starter to build the leaven. I prefer to keep mine in the refrigerator since I don't bake every day, and I feed it at least we...
From Seed to Starter, or is it Levain? Hello:After several tries, I finally followed the starter (seed)process posted here under Pineapple Lesson). It worked very well. I am now on day 7 and fed my little seed this morning at 0930 and it is now 1330 (1:30PM) and I have a doubled my lot. NOW WHAT? Do I have a sourdoug...	Try it and see what it does. 4 hours! How much starter to how much flour? Don't stir or knock it down. Wait until it peaks. If peaking about 8 hours, wait until evening (to get it onto a 12 hour schedule) discard (take this discard and build for a loaf) and feed the starter more flour so it can go to 12 hours or u...
Oven Humdifier Whilst doing some research on bacon curing I came across these today:http://www.surlatable.com/product/PRO-661256/Charcoal-Companion-Moistly-Grilled-Cast-Iron-Grill-HumidifiersJust what I've been looking for my baking ...	You can set a cheap metal bowl or plate with lava rocks in it and pour a cup of hot water after you set the bread in the oven and it will have the same effect and probably a lot cheaper. Most like it you already knew this, but I just wanted to tell you anyway.Norman.
Experiencing a Plateau... Everything seemed to be going fine! I got my starter started via Susan's website http://www.wildyeastblog.com/2007/07/13/raising-a-starter/ (she's awesome :)) and experienced the stages she predicted: 1) the false miracle starter...where it doubles on the first day 2) the foul stench and rece...	Reduce the amount of starter that you are saving but stick to the same feed schedule. It needs more food so discard more before feeding. Save a tablespoon of starter and feed again. How wet is it? Is it more like batter or dough? Batter will not rise as high as dough consistancy. No big deal, you should just be a...
Amusing myself while waiting for starter So, I've just dived into the deep end with this sourdough thing (well, really, I'm still on the board I guess), and started a starter on the 23rd. It's been a bit sluggish to get going, so, being impatient, I started another one on the 31st! :) The first is a 100% hydration wh...	What! No fruit juice! The weastie one is almost 10 days old and probably is yeast.
Sourdough waffles or pancakes, or what to do with your excess starter... We had breakfast for dinner last night, and I thought it was time to pass on a small recommendation for this recipe from King Arthur. The waffles and pancakes it makes are light and crispy, very tasty. The recipe calls for an overnight ferment whe...	I do the same thing, but I I do the same thing, but I don't even do any kind of preferment, sponge or anything. I'm never awake enough in the morning to be that organized. I just pull my leftovers (I never throw my excess out either) out of the fridge, add water to dilute any "stiff" leftovers, then add a couple of ...
Crust is lifting off the bread while baking ciabatta. Haven't had this problem with any other shape/kind of bread but I made a large rectangular ciabatta and midway through baking (400 degrees) the top crust has risen and pulled off from the rest of the loaf. Any suggestions on how to keep the steam on the inside from ...	Stitch it down with your finger If, just before you load it, you will press your finger all the way down through the loaf on about 2" centers in both directions, these will stitch the top crust down so that it can't break them all and the loaf will rise between them. If you are not aggressive enough they will pull loo...
Starter and dough rises, but stays flat in oven Hi all, I have a common problem which I hope the experts on this forum can help with. When I make sourdough bread with a preferment, everything seems to go fine up to the point of baking in the oven - the preferment and dough all rise properly. But once I put it in the ...	It may be that you under It may be that you under kneaded and didn't develop enough air cells to be filled during baking. It's also possible that your dough was too soft-did you use the right kind of flour, with an adequate amount of protein? Over proofing can also cause flatness.Cheers,Gavin
Tartine Bulk Fermentation in the Refrigerator? I have been making bread using the Tartine recipe for a while with very satisfactory results.I am trying to adapt the baking schedule to my routine. Has anyone here tried doing the bulk fermentation overnight in the refrigerator?Do you do that instead of the stretch and fo...	Thoughts... I think you will still want to do some S&Fs before you refrigerate it. And I think you will need to cut back on the starter proportion a bit to slow the bulk ferment. You will probably have to experiment and hone in on the right ratios. But it should work fine.Good luck and let us know how it works!Jay
Sourness I know there are plenty of post on this topic, I have read most of them. and I know this subject has been beaten to death. However, has anyone successfully changed the effect their starter has on the sourness of their dough. My starter is about 8 months old, I have tried many things to my starter and or dough ...	Yes Feed it less often and give it a longer pre-ferment period, over 24 hours. The longer it is in that pre-ferment stage, the longer the bacteria have to get down to business.
Help - same dough diferent results Hello,I've been lurking on this site for quite awhile and this is my first post. First I want to say thank you to all the passionate bread makers out there, you are very inspiring and I might add...intimidating! Anyway, on to my problem. I recently made a sourdough from a wild starte...	What was the temp? It would be nice to have higher resolution photos as it is hard to tell much from 225 x 70 pixel images. What was the refrigerator temperature? I suspect it may have been too cold.
how old is your starter? just out of curiosity, how old is your starter? i think mines almost a year old. started from the bourke st bakery book :)	Probably 25+ years old. Probably 25+ years old.
sourdough help plz :) Hello, jus wants to quickly ask, if my starter is stored in the fridge, and I take it out to make bread, how many feeds do I need to giv it before I can use it? Also, I noticed many recipes ask for one cup of starter. So then if I used one cup how would I feed it ( flour/water amounts)? I usually ...	Starter help Hello, just wants to quickly ask, if my starter is stored in the fridge, and I take it out to make bread, how many feeds do I need to give it before I can use it?Depends on the condition of the starter when it went into the fridge, the refrigerator temperature, and how long it's been in there. I normally ...
Please Help Save My Sticky Mother Starter Using Peter Reinhart's Artisan Breads Every Day and King Arthur bread flour, I went from seed culture to pain au levain a few weeks ago. The first time I got to the Mother Starter phase I had a lovely soft ball of dough. Following Reinhart's instructions, I refreshed the star...	adjust the hydration to what ever consistancy you prefer. What is the temperature of the mother? It is natural for a sourdough culture to rise and then as the food declines, degrade the integrity of a ball of dough causing it to flatten a little. This happens naturally as the gluten in the dough breaks down thru f...
Creating different type starters Do different starter recipies create different type starters, I'm not talking about using different flours or changing hydraation. I have seen recipes using fruit, beer, potato milk, sugar, seemingling differents way to collect the yeast. Do you think these starters will be end up the...	I would think they would be I would think they would be different strains of bacteria along with a different taste. Otherwise everyone would stick to rye flour vs raisin water vs etc.Also, you can create a starter from chickpeas believe it or not. Alot of arabic bakeries would use ground up chickpea mush as a starter...
Need a Child's Guide to Sourdough Starter Development and Use Hi, all. I’m having such a great time learning and reading on this website. As a very new baker of things containing yeast, there is certainly much to learn and I’m grateful to all who have contributed in expanding the knowledge of others.I’m currently worki...	Try this http://www.wildyeastblog.com/2007/07/13/raising-a-starter/
long stored starter in fridge? Has anyone stored a starter in the fridge for months without feeding it monthly? Like 6 months or more. I just took mine out smelled great had to stir in hooch but no probelm so far. I took a cup out and added 4 cups of flour and 3 of water. Smells right but am wondering if anyone has...	Too many to count, if you start seaching through TFL. Yours should be fine.Paul
Sourdough from Fresh Milled Wheat I mill my own wheat. I have Pairie Gold and Spelt. Which one is better to use for a starter? Are there any traditional recipes that are basic. I read in a book that pioneers used just milk and fresh ground wheat. But I can't find any recipes. I can't iamge they used whey. I'd ra...	Either will work, Papist Whole wheat or whole spelt will perform well as the basis for a new starter. Whole rye will ferment even faster. I'd suggest that you read Debra Wink's Pineapple Solution, Parts 1 and 2, before you launch. It will give you a good idea of what goes on inside a starter and a very reliable meth...
reviving frozen starter haven't been baking for several months so my fridged starter was out of gas and quite blue.took out a jar of liquid frozen starter from a couple years ago. fed and halved for 4 day, not a sign of life.took out some frozen dried chips that I think are younger.stirred a Tbsp of dried chips into a...	Small amount of starter, Small amount of starter, large amount of food, keep warm, stir with authority at 12 hr intervals until it comes back. Enjoy!
Rye to wheat starter suddenly inactive Mixed together a rye starter (water + rye) four days ago. It doubled on the second day and was still robust when I fed it. Third day, I replaced rye with whole wheat. Per recipe, I'm mixing half my starter (40 grams) plus 100 grams whole wheat and 125 grams water. Today my starter...	That may not have been yeast... That may not have been yeast that made your starter double on the second day. It sounds like you're talking about a new starter, is that right? Other bacteria sometimes get active in the first few days, then naturally die off as the more desireable bacteria start to ramp up. Keep up t...
Starter and gluten chemistry I'm having an interesting issue with my starter, or perhaps my bread. If I use starter for high hydration breads (70-80%) that are just KA bread flour, water, salt, and my homegrown sourdough, especially if I retard them, I seem to have a gloopy mess sometimes. Usually I can hand-knead my b...	Protease Excessive protease can cause the degradation of protein. There is some of this enzyme in the flour, but, if you are using milk that has NOT been scalded (190°F) then cooled to the fermentation temperature (~80°F) you may have an overload of protease. Using powdered milk is not a solution unless you are using...
Make a Stiff Dough levain from a liquid levain Hi from Johannesburg South Africa!Just love this site.I would like to make a Stiff Dough Levain using a portion of my Rye Liquid Levain (100% Hydration.) My month old Liquid Levain is a dream performer after 5 previous failed attempts. (All others developed like steroid bu...	make it solid Hi, in order to make a stiff white starter you can use 20 gr of your starter, 30 gr of water and 80 gr of bread flour, or as much as necessary to get a very stiff dough. Notice that after several hours it will almost melt, it will take a glue-like consistence. Add a touch of bakind soda or of salt to prev...
Sad Starter & Sadder Bread Hi there -I've had a sourdough starter for quite a while now and have previously made very delicious bread with a lot of great rise and oven spring. But now I can't get my starter to make decent bread for the life of me! My starter (which used to be very active) now can take almost 24 hours t...	Chlorine? I wonder if the chlorine in the water is killing the starter. Try leaving the water overnight....
Can one make a sourdough starter from freshly ground wheat? Please do not think me too 'blonde' ... but am turning to you - THE EXPERTS - for my query.I have ground some fresh wheat ... can I use that 'homemade wheat flour' as a bread starter? If so, how? How much wheat flour, water, salt/sugar, yeast?Thank you!	Hello Floyd / Admin ... Hello Floyd / Admin ... Please delete my message ... I just noticed someone else posted the same question ... no need for me to repeat. Thank you! :o)
100% Light Wheat Sourdough Recipe? Hello,I have been searching for a recipe to make 100% light wheat flour sourdough loaf.I have found rough recipes for light and wholemeal flour sourdough but I would like to find a good recipe for 100% light wheat flour sourdough so that I get the right proportion of ingredients/hydra...	What do you mean by "light"? Do you mean white whole wheat (light colored)?Do you mean low calorie? (light on calories)Do you mean low fat? (light ingredients)Do you mean not heavy or dense (fluffy)? (light weight)
WOW starter i read last year about this guy that did research on the effect of words on water crystals (Dr. Emoto). i am not ususally into these kind of metaphysical ideas but i figured 'what the heck, i'll give it a try'. so i put the word 'gratitude' on my starter about 7 months ago and havent used it since. when i...	Attitude is everything WoW! is right. A little gratitude goes a long way apparently.
Freezing dough As a novice to sourdough baking, Iwould like advice re freezing dough. I have a Wood fired Pizza oven and lately have the sourdough bug which looks like being a permanent affliction . I have been practising in the electric oven and now wish to progress to the WFO, obviously it is not practical to bake a...	Welcome to the fresh loaf Try the search box on the left. Your subject 'freezing dough' comes up with several threads that should answer your question.
Converting to stiffer starter - no bubbles, help Hello,I've been maintaining my 100% hydration starter for over a year and this past week decided to convert a bit into a stiffer starter (for a Bertinet recipe).The first evening I took 50g of my 100% hydrated starter, mixed it with 50g bottled water and 100g AP flour. ...	Advice: do nothing You are making small batches of 60% hydration bread dough with no salt.That is almost tasteless bagel dough.I would not expect bubbles.
New Starter Question Last early last month in anticipation of making my annual Pandora for Christmas, I tried to revive my sourdough starter to no avail. Oh well.So anyway I decided after the beginning of the new year I would start a new starter, so last Sunday night (1/8/12) I got started using the " Artisan Baking A...	Not always the bacteria and fungi you want. The microorganisms that populate a new starter are seldom the ones that become mainstay. These earlybird microorganisms process and acidify the environment, making it comfy and habitable for the microorganisms you want in a starter, namely Candida or Saccharomyces yeasts livi...
Some desem questions So, in a fit of inspiration I'm 3 days into creating a new desem starter.Conditions in the Cape are cool, very wet, and wintry, but we're coastal so there is a spot on my 'stoep' (verandah) that is still hovering around the requisite 10-16 deg C. It's all very chilly, windy-wet and octopus teachery...	60% hydration Your conditions sound ideal. It is nice to have an option for this type of baking sans the modern wine fridge dependency. Surely the ocean is just as good as the pine forest mentioned in Omer's write-up. I grew up on the North Shore in the other cape (Cape Ann), and miss the ocean this time of year. A...
Any SF bakers willing to donate a little starter? I have been travelling for 2 1/2 years with my starter and I finally left it behind by accident. I am visiting some friends in SF and meant to bring my Starter with me and mistakenly left it behind at another friends place in LA. Are there any SF bakers with a fresh sou...	SF Starter I have some that I made in San Francisco from scratch, but it's not very sour, and I don't know how to make it more sour.You are welcome to have some. It is fine for liveliness.I can meet you to give it to you.If you get some from Acme, I'll trade you, starter-for-starter.-SFSourdoughnut
"fixing" a starter gone chessy My starter is of local organic small white grapes and bread flour. It's a couple years old.In the last month or so, it has gone a bit "cheesy" and is slow to "activate".Normally I feed with bread flour and hot water 1/.75 or so. Then I put in the oven with the light on and it would usuua...	how often do you feed? I'm how often do you feed? I'm assuming you're "activating" it after it's been starving in the fridge for a while. Try feeding 2x per day at a ratio of 1:1 flour-to-water, by weight. Save only about 1 tablespoon during each feed. Keep your starter at room temp during this process. Repeat it for 5...
Whole wheat vs White vs Rye Does your mature starter really care? Do you keep multiple starters fed on different flours? For example one starter that is fed only whole wheat, another that is fed only rye? Have you noticed a difference using one starter or another for a particular recipe? My whole wheat starter is hea...	No Need for Multiple Starters It's easier to keep one active starter and build off of that stock. By the time you get to the third stage of a build, you'll effectively have a rye, WW, or white starter. If you have a production level need for a specific type of starter, by all means do build a seperate starter. However,...
bread with both sourdough starter and poolish/preferment I have been researching some foreign recipes which involve translation. I have yet to bake these recipes as there is always something lost in translation. After much research I found an intriguing recipe that uses a yeasted poolish fermented for 12+ hours, ripe s...	hi there, a lot of Eastern hi there, a lot of Eastern european rue breads involve just that - a starter, sponge and then final dough. Look up borodinsky here, for example. Wheat breads with sourdough and a pre-ferment aren't that uncommon, either. I can't think of any "established" recipe at mo but here is my conversio...
my bread tasted like finger nail polish remover I was so embaressed!! I made some bread to bring to dinner at my in laws last night and it tasted horrible! I would not let anyone eat it. My husband had a small hunk and I had a bite. It had the worst taste ever. I guess maybe like an acetone taste it felt weird on my to...	the smell your starter takes on when it needs to be fed like achohol or finger nail polish remover ...stirred it in (hooch)No. That would be waiting too long. Something else is going on. :( Sorry to hear you got an invasion to take care of. I pour off hooch if I see it (it's been years) as it is a protection ...

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