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... | And for me, it seems like when it comes to this content moderation debate, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. I'm curious for your thoughts on A, where this... |
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... | in that longer, broader escape of that debate. And then P, is there a way forward in your mind? So I put a joke on Tectored. |
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... | a few months ago and I keep referring to it over and over again. There's a famous economist Kenneth Arrow, he had this thing called the Arrow Impossibility Theorem, which is he |
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... | He looked at all different kinds of voting systems and argued that none of them can accurately reflect the will of the populace. And so I did a play on that. |
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... | which I called humbly, the Masnik impossibility theorem. You are a very humble guy. We go way back. I think it's been quite a number of years I've known you. |
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... | I don't even remember how long ago that was, but it was way back. Because it might be like 15, no, not 15, maybe 15, almost like. |
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... | I don't know. I love that you named it after yourself. I want to hear about the Maznik impossibility theorem. It is impossible to do content moderation. |
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... | well. And there are a variety of reasons for that. One being that any kind of content moderation is going to piss off someone and that is generally the person whose content... |
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... | was moderated. The second element of it too is that so much of this is subjective decision making and everybody has a different view on these things and everyone has a different |
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... | a number of different case studies effectively. And we had a hundred content moderator experts in the audience and none of them agreed. And every case that we did... |
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... | people had strong disagreements over what should have been done about this particular content. And then on top of that, you just have the law of large numbers. And if you're making decisions on 500... |
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... | The Attorney General does have some ability. We haven't talked about what's not in the executive order, but this is where there's a little bit of the dust storm is very distracting, which is that |
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... | that Congress could choose to rewrite policy if they wanted, using this as an incitement for that. Yeah, there are people in both the House and Senate who have said that they... |
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... | any such legislation would almost certainly be subject immediately to a First Amendment challenge and would likely fail, but that would be many years into the future. Right. So we forgot. |
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-0... | one bit of the executive order, which is probably the only legit thing in there, seemingly, which is that part of this had the threat of limiting any government. |
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... | government dollars of advertising going to these sites. And I, by the way, did a little quick check. And based on federal procurement records, this is, according to the Verge, apparently only. |
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... | $200,000 advertising have been provided to Twitter specifically since 2008, which sounds a little crazy to me and it can't be getting. |
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... | I'm curious for your take on that. Yeah. So that is one thing that an executive order actually can do, right, which is instruct certain federal agencies in terms of how they're spending their money in some form. |
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... | or another. Oh, by the way, to be clear, when you say they're money, we're actually still talking about. Yes, mostly taxpayer money. There are a few exceptions, but mostly taxpayer money is what we're talking. |
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... | Something may happen in the future based on that. The implication is that they should not be spending. There could be a tiny, tiny, tiny... |
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... | But the few federal agencies that do advertise on social media actually probably have pretty good reason for that. And the one big example is the Census Bureau. And it's 2020 and we're in. |
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... | in the midst of supposedly collecting the census. I forgot about that. Because every 10 years, we have to do a census. And one of the best ways that... |
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... | done to the Constitution to collect. So Mike, this is a wonderful summary so far of what Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act does and doesn't allow of the recent... |
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... | And I would argue that is done in bad faith to make use of the good faith limitation. Oh man. Right. So what are the aspects of the... |
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... | executive order again without going into breaking down every little detail because this is really more about the underlying principles, would you say have impact for understanding and really interpreting and explaining what CDA 230 is? |
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... | did have it, is that it instructs the Attorney General to draft a law, oddly not a federal law, but to draft like a reference state law. |
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... | which is that 230 is not a universal immunity. It is not as universal as people make it out to be. And one thing that it does not cover is... |
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... | able to go after those sites. And that includes third-party content. There are a whole bunch of conditions on that. So if there is drug dealing, human trafficking, those things going on on those sites. |
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... | those sites potentially could be criminally liable. So the Attorney General and the Justice Department and the FBI have always had the leeway to make use of the law to go after these sites. |
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... | And yet, for the last few months, the Attorney General has been attacking 230 and acting as if it limited his power in some way. |
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... | simply does not. But now he can draft a law and he'd sort of already been doing that. What's so amazing about what you just said though, Mike? |
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... | the Urnit Act. And what it has the potential to do is to say that if you are offering end-to-end encryption on your |
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... | service, you no longer get 230 protections. It's a little more complicated than that, but his ability to do that in a manner that would remain constitutional is a pretty big question. |
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... | is work the refs, right? It means basically, hey, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, if you don't want us to keep causing trouble for you, maybe... |
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... | Don't be mean to us, you know, don't fact check us. Don't limit our tweets. Don't limit our content. Don't put extra notices on it or other limitations on it because the |
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... | The more you do that, the more of a pain we're going to be to you. So summarize at a super high level, the FCC has extremely limited jurisdiction over websites specifically. |
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... | Andres Cisco in DSpace 9 was married and had a child. |
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... | How long does it take to cook salmon or whatever it is? |
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... | you don't necessarily want to be in marketing. |
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... | And if you don't take marketing seriously, you're |
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... | gonna get what you pays for, you know. |
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-0... | Apparently you can get something pretty good. |
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... | So we'll see. |
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... | Does anybody know Monty Python anymore? But I guess. |
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... | I think those of us that were writing about seafood. I'm just looking confused. |
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... | whatever we don't need to talk about them alright so |
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... | and they are planning on IPO-ing, doing a private placement to finance this project. |
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... | uh... mercure marketers applied to move on to the mercure market |
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... | made it extremely clear that the FCC has no authority whatsoever to regulate websites. None. Zero. Zilch. It's not even an open question. |
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... | And what it can do and can't do, because it comes up a lot, FCC can do this, can't do this, like it cannot make laws, but it does have the ability to sort of- |
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... | And they also have the power to ask for documents and they can do distracting things, but they may not have legal making authority. So I think it would be very helpful for you to break- |
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... | And interestingly, because it is an independent agency, the president cannot instruct them to do something. So the executive order instructs the NTIA, which is part of the commerce. |
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0... | something. The FCC could certainly create a lot of nuisance and yes there will be comment periods and people will have to testify and put in comments and you know as we saw with the |
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... | So earlier I talked about the two different parts of the CDA that one is about liability on third-party content and one is about the platform's protection in moderation. And there are a few things that I want to mention. |
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... | faith would open up a whole other First Amendment kind of worms. But what the instructions to the FCC indicate is that those limitations, the good faith of the one. |
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... | objectionable stuff, that somehow applies to the first part of CDA 230, which is the part about not being responsible for third-party content. |
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... | that has never been the case. Nobody's ever suggested it is the case. It has never shown up in any lawsuit, it's never been argued in a legitimate way. |
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... | said that you can't just declare any place where people can speak, even if a lot of people speak there, a public square and... |
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... | It doesn't become a state action. It doesn't take on government control. The idea that something is a public square or that there is state action involved from a private company only applies. |
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... | government. And that ruling makes it very clear that things that Twitter and Facebook and YouTube and every other website out there do does not qualify. They are not replacing government. They are. |
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... | not offering services that were traditionally only given by the government. Right. This basically means that if the sites that do perform services that are exclusively at service provided by the government, it would be an exam. |
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-... | like if the government decided that all tax reimbursement would be done entirely online and no longer through the US Postal Service and therefore that would |
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... | then have to comply with being treated as a thing that would have these provisions on it. Right. There could be an example, something that was traditionally and exclusively handled by the government. |
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... | And so I could see an argument where like someone could not be kicked off or blocked because that would imply state action issues. So now let's talk about the news. |
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... | Again, as a way to explain what CDA 230 is and isn't, we've explained and debunked some of the myths and framings around arguments of platforms and publishers. |
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... | and analogies to phone systems. So now let's actually just talk very briefly about the recent executive order that was issued this week because there's |
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... | show's purpose, it's a tease apart what's hype, what's real. And this is very rich in that very domain. Let's talk about what the executive order can and can. |
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... | do here or what it purports to do and doesn't do. Right. So there were drafts of this kind of executive order that made the rounds over the last two years. This is something. |
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... | that the White House has kind of been thinking about. I reported on it and a number of other news sites reported on it and different drafts were leaked out to the press. |
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... | and the FTC, and the message that the White House got back was that this was unconstitutional and they couldn't do any of this. But it seemed that they took it out of the drawer and dusted it. |
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... | it off and put a fresh coat of paint on it. And it says a lot of very angry stuff about the internet services and platform. |
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... | forms and the way that they handle moderation. There's like seven different sections and the two sort of scary-ish parts of the executive order that are concerning is that to one extent- |
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... | really apply. You can argue that there should be some other kind of classification and some people argue that, but comparing them directly to a telephone service is different. |
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... | because it's not core infrastructure. It's things that are at the edge, things that you use. It is a service provided beyond that. What do you then make of? |
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... | because it's the new public square and therefore it violates their rights. They will often point to two different lawsuits in making this argument. One is a prune yard and the other is packing. |
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... | him. And these two cases come up and they've been brought up in a whole bunch of lawsuits and I'll just say that every time they've been brought up in a lawsuit to argue that a social media . |
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... | But just to give the quick background on the two cases and they go deep But I'm gonna give as high levels I can and as quick as I can |
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... | very very narrow situation which is basically prune yard and prune yard alone. You can't just say that something is a public square. The Packingham case is a more recent case. |
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... | Supreme Court case that kicked out a state law that was basically saying if criminals had done some sort of criminal activity online, part of their punishment could be that they |
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... | and all that kind of stuff. So people have taken that to mean like, oh, then the services themselves cannot kick. |
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... | a third case that people never mentioned but is the most important case it was just decided last summer and that is the Manhattan News Network case and this |
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... | was a case and we'll get into the details, but what the Supreme Court ruling just last year and it was written by Brett Kavanaugh, who was the most recent appointment and his ruling. |
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