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Peena, one of the prosecution's chief witnesses social media records from Facebook and Twitter. And this is a witness who was herself.
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... policy in... well, laws are changing, but currently in the us, for the most part, the privacy policy can say, "we don't give a shit about-
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... your privacy, and we're going to just going to throw away all your data and give it to whoever wants it." and you think, "oh, they have a privacy policy. they must...
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"... keep my information private," because nobody reads it. and the only way they get in trouble is if they violate that privacy policy. so companies have incentive to write that as broadly as...
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... possible, again, for the lawyers to...and they can change it anytime? [crosstalk 00:02:36]
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30 seconds. Do you remember pop-up ads? The reason we don't have pop-up ads now is because users could install ad blockers. And those ad blockers
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the terms of service, which said you will render the page the way that is optimal for our shareholders, not for your experience. If we allow firms to dictate one
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on-site in terms of service to users, then users don't get to push back in a way that establishes an equilibrium between the profit mode of the firm and the preference
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of customers, instead what you end up with is these take it or leave it garbage deals where you have 20,000 words of sprawling legalese that say by being dead.
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That's why terms of service should not be enforceable regardless of what they say some should be but not any term service so
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hello, and welcome to the techdirt podcast. i'm mike masnick.
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... useful data, it makes it that much harder for accused criminals to prove their side of the case. this whole area of study was kind of new and fascinating to me, so...
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... have invited rebecca onto the podcast to talk about it. so welcome to the podcast.thank you so much. that was a great explanation of the issue. i'm thrilled to be here.
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well, all right, there we go. if we have a great explanation, we can just stop.two minutes in.so let's start...
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... with the basics. can you explain sort of what's happening? you had told me about this, and i thought it was really interesting. i thought it was worth discussing on the podcast. give a...
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employing some useful marketing whizzes could make quite a difference.well it's funny. you.
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... mention that because that ad from '89, that was embedded in the story-
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... really good. i mean, i thought that could cross right over to today. it was-
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... all about. i wanted to listen a couple times because-
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... clearly you're not a runner.[crosstalk 00:05:00] make me want to go for a run.we've established-
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yeah. i don't know. i mean, they do a lot in that little ad, so-
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i actually agree with john. i-
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i think there's some good stuff in there. now-
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... and what you could do 30 years ago.
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no. well, what i will say is-
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you might also be able to deal with a bunch of the problems that he discusses in terms of being able to actually fund a product.
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call that that you can continually update and innovate on it. and i will note that part of the reason why moxie is able to build his thing.
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is he has a whole bunch of money right now, which came from facebook, not directly, but there are reasons why these things happen but.
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and be succeeded by a monster is I think not a thing that we should be trusting significant parts of internet infrastructure too.
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emperors are terrific if they're infallible, but fallibility is a universal human foible, right? This is why we don't just say, well, Mr.
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he likes. Now let's subject your eugenics theories to the same scrutiny that we subjected the rest of it to, right? And so we don't know what
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that you're good at everything. And I think that's why we do need pluralism and decentralization, not because smart people aren't smart, but because they can sometimes be really foolish.
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you just want to build in some great feedback loops. you just want to be able to look at how well the system is working and figure out whether the people involved in that system...
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... the ability if a group is, or an individual is making bad or dangerous decisions, the ability to move and lead...
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service archive an effective benchmark for eliminating the role of these firms and whether [inaudible 00:01:04] what you think. and then maybe you could cater to that.
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these are contracts that you don't get to negotiate. these are contracts that...
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... that nobody cares about and nobody reads. i have trouble taking them seriously as a contract in the normal sense of a contract. and it's not like...
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... if you don't like the terms of service of a facebook, that you can call up zuck and say, "hey, i'm going to cross out section 2b...
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... and i'd like to write in this." that's not the way it works. and so it's not a contract in the traditional sense. and so i don't think there's much value...
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... we rely on a privacy policy as our privacy policy globally. and the funny thing is a privacy...
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and how are you organizing yourself? are you making 20 times more than another employee, maybe one that is a woman or a person of color.
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those are things that are really important to think about and.
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that's, i think ,as much of a conversation about the internet infrastructure as any of these technologies.
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when flubber came out after seeing the original, but it was decent.
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funding [inaudible 00:05:56-00:06:10].
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yeah and moxie had this blog post that gets thrown at me somewhat frequently. and.
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and i've taken to throwing it back to people when people ask, "what are the challenges to this approach i will point them to moxie's. it's a very well-written, very thoughtful blog post about the.
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the difficulties of protocols. it's really a governance question that he's pointing out and it's worth reading and worth thinking about.
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this approach that i talk about is not.
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it's not easy and i'm not saying that it's this "hey, yes conesia" that's the word i was thinking of.
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that it just solves our problems and you just follow this and it's.
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mentioned it is that i've been having conversation after conversation about "what does this look like? how would this actually happen?" and i'll
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go down a path, then i'll have brainstorming conversation after brainstorming conversations, and every one of them goes in the same way where it's if you focus on identity
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data storage and data bank where someone can host their own data and then you go down this path and you say, "oh, well there's a problem.every one of these approaches.
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in one of them,
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would that sort of decrease the need for a facebook? so there's an interesting point in there, which is that to some extent, for many people and for many services.
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i didn't know why that was useful and why that happened. there are a bunch of companies and not companies, but organizations or groups of people who are trying to build.
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sort of an identity layer. it's a very, very, very difficult problem. and it has been tried in many, many different ways and it has failed in many, many different ways.
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but yes. in theory, if someone could do that, well, that would be a very useful service and could lessen the need for a.
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So I want to return briefly to the theme of competition here because there's a related subject which is that if you're not paying for the product you're the
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product. This is the thing we often hear. And there's the conclusion that some people draw is if only you would pay for Facebook then Facebook wouldn't be incentivized to do this.
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see with paid-for platforms is that if they can get away with turning you into the product you're the product regardless of whether you are paying
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Right? The fact that you need to pay John Deere technicians to come out and enter an unlock code before the part that you yourself installed in your tractor's engine.
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is not a reflection of the fact that John Deere is giving away free tractors. Those are three to five hundred thousand dollars pieces of equipment which still treat you as the product.
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So, to the extent that firms are allowed to treat the product, to the extent that Apple can rope you into, say, paying monopoly rents for repairs or
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and extract rents out of their software vendors by guaranteeing that there's only one store that iOS users can use. They will still treat you as the product, right?
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that the issue here is not advertising, nor is it the absence of advertising. It is the absence of any fear that they face competition, competitive pressure from
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I pay off a lot for my cell phone service and cable and internet and I trust those guys much less than
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sort of create a path out of the facebook box that we're in. i just wanted to name that since it's surfaced in this conversation
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Great. My, I think, has a man.
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before you trust anything and that's at least my mo lately is "that sounds like a really cool app, bro, but where are you getting your money?"
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like an app where you can connect to it and you, you know, have posts but there are people who just do not have never touched a phone, can't
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Just don't have the capacity right now maybe later to understand like where to learn how to use a smartphone or it's very costly and so they have like a
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on their community, and it's totally off grid, but it's an internet. So those are the types of things that need funding, they need energy, they also, I think,
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I mean they don't need legitimacy because they're already working but I think like looking at those different solutions as actual success stories and not just like a Facebook as a success
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or even like a globalized protocol is a success story is part of the issue. I'm glad we could have a relatively optimistic note here. So we're going to transition to the audience.
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elijah would imagining the dog talking.
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yeah. anonymity is a separate question in terms of
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and how important that is. and i think.
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certainly useful for people who are being harassed and threatened or at risk. i think we have to be very careful about saying, "oh, just toss out anonymity" and go.
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somehow confirmed or verified or endorsed in some sense, but you don't have to reveal who they are and that creates certain
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and services to where obviously that makes that happen,they usually show it [inaudible 00:01:40].
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[crosstalk 00:01:47]sure. oh so there's.that's the deep web.the deep web as opposed to the dark web.
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so basically saying that, everyone talks about the big platforms that we already talked about. there are billions of other websites out there that lots of people use in all different ways
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and those exist and that's a good thing, but they're not providing the same kinds of services, i think, as what everyone is talking about here.
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ideal data from peopleso the idea being if everybody had their own control of their identity, in some sense,
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So imagine that Cecil and the ten other people who were situated like her could set up a master on instance and with or without Twitter's cooperation could
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federated with Twitter. They could still be part of our conversation, but they could have a set of rules that reflected their local situation. They could trust each other to accept screenshots.
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They could not delete DMs even when the room out party deleted the DM they could have their own rules right about what happened in their corner of
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need it to. The thing about edge cases is that they sound like they're things that only happen occasionally. But at scale, edge cases happen all the time.
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2.5 billion users generate 2,500 1 in a million use cases every day. It's tens of thousands of edge cases, 1 in a million edge cases,
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Every month, incidentally, this is why they'll never be able to stop bots because when you have 2,500 one-in-a-million use cases, you have to support it.
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every day, you're never going to be able to figure out what's a human and what isn't, right? So the monopolist's top preference is to not be regulated, but their second preference is to be regulated
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whole in the wall around the wall garden so that all the users leak out, then they will not be able to lobby for the kinds of rules
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that benefit them at everyone else's cost. I mean, it is possible to make state rules that make sense, right? We're not all dead of cholera, right? And yet there is
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There's no one in government who is a microbiologist, right? The reason we're not all dead of cholera is because we can have a legitimate process. There is no big cholera.
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We could have a similar regime on our internet if only we could erode those monopoly rents that allow for the parochial desires of firms that dominate our internet.
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for the platforms. And I think when we are talking, you know, talk about protocols, it sounds really appealing to say like, oh, well, you know, it's just post
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to be global in the sense that Facebook is global. I think part of the reason why we had issues like Cambridge Analytica, things can just go
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it is actually a great example of that. They have breaded moderators, mods, who oversee the different communities and you sort of trust that mod to look over what is acceptable
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