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hello. and welcome to the podcast.
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first up, i want to say that things have been little bit busier than usual, meaning that-
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... we skipped a few weeks of podcast in november, and actually, are likely to do so again in december.
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but hopefully, we'll get back on a more regular schedule in the new year, so-
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... i haven't quite figured out why that was, but then-
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yeah. well you never quite know-
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... why, i guess and that's the hard part is even with these consumption figures-
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... reports, and that really has varied not-
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... so, i hear a lot-
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Right, where they have like a stake in your car.
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yeah. i'm a little more so of the numbers than you maybe.
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all right. so rachel, what's your initial thoughts? the twice-
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... up and find it, but it's been out for quite a-
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... i mean, they're not... i don't want to-
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... before.yeah. just as a sort of tangential side note, but i think it's important. it seems like we are...
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... there is this movement now where people are recognizing that we need significant criminal justice reform in all sorts of areas. right? you know, well beyond this one. and...
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... so, i think it feels like a good time to be bringing up these issues. obviously, there are all these privacy laws that are being proposed...
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... and some of them actually becoming law, but it's happening at the same time that there is renewed interest in criminal justice reform.and the new privacy laws, what's troubling...
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doubling about them is that they're poised to make the SCA'd like a symmetry so much worse, because those laws are going to cover so many more types of data.
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So right now, no problem getting non-content information, but if the data privacy laws pass and include these types of asymmetries, it's going to screw up defense investigations just when
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Not only do we want to be reforming our criminal justice system, but also we're handing in storing so much more data that's going to be relevant to criminal investigations.
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with third party service providers. So Fitbit data, you know, cell phone location records, all of the DNA. You know, we used to live in a world where the government
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and, interesting stuff. as i said, it was just something i hadn't really considered, and it's really kind of interesting to think about it. is there anything...
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... that i'm missing? is there anything else to think about regarding these things? i think we've covered a whole bunch and we've gone through all my questions.
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Yeah, no, we covered a lot and I just want to also say that I'm so appreciative of you for reporting on it because it does feel like something that we can fix.
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Well, we're talking a lot about defense investigations. This really isn't a law enforcement versus defense issue because it's not law enforcement that's trying to deny these
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Yeah, right. It's companies, it's private companies, the private sector. And in actually, there's a case right now pending before the California State Supreme Court. Touchstone is the name of
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unjust for criminal defendants. Right. So in the example you gave before is because the person in particular was was pleading the fifth to to stop.
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you know, say they are homeless or they're a tinderant, you can't locate them or say they are dangerous. You know, there was a case also in San Francisco
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recently, where an individual defendant was caught on surveillance cameras shooting at an SUV. And he wanted to argue that he was acting in
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defense because the individual who was driving the SUV had been threatening and harassing him on Instagram for the past six months making him fear for his life.
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that individual had tried to kill him earlier and the attempted murder had been investigated by the police so he wanted to be able to get
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content related to that individual's Instagram account that he didn't have access to anymore, but he wanted to get it from Facebook. He didn't want to have to go subpoena the individual
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do is not immunize the technology companies from the administrative burden of complying with legal process that the rest of us all have to comply with if it's served on us.
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right. i'm still thinking about this. i recently wrote a story, not in the criminal context, but in the civil...
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i mean, it seemed like an abuse of the subpoena power.i'm so glad you brought that up, and i'd love to read your work on that case. just a flag...
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that that limit that I said before about fishing expedition. So if the judge thinks you're just off fishing, they're going to deny you. But also they require defense counsel pre trial to
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show that the information they're trying to get is going to be relevant and it's going to be admissible evidence in the case. And that means you can't get hearsay material
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So already our subpoenas in the criminal cases are much more narrower and so they are less vulnerable to that type of abuse. The other big difference of course is the
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Constitution, which kicks in full force in the criminal cases, but not as much in the civil. Right. Right. Yeah. No, that's that's a really good and important distinction. I'm glad that you
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... fundamentally less familiar with how subpoenas are used in criminal cases. so, i think that's actually really useful background.yeah. which isn't to say, it's not a legitimate concern. it's just that it's a...
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They applied a medical records, they applied a psych records, they applied a location information and were used to accommodating and accounting for those types of risks with all the safeguards we talked about.
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not well reasoned or thought through.yeah. is it, i mean, is it that law enforcement [inaudible 00:06:14]. i know that whenever politicians are pushing for these kinds of-
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privacy bills that usually law enforcement does raise concerns about what it would mean for their investigatory powers. but do you think that they're sort of-
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heavily lobbying whenever any of these bills are coming out. That's certainly my understanding. I'm not in the room, so I'm not a primary source here.
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groups that do great work, but they're dealing with so many different issues in criminal justice reform that this one understandably isn't always on the front burner.
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is just the reality of it and then also state lawmakers there's a lot of copy and paste that goes on we're depending on other bills and so if we could get this fixed
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in some of the leading bills. I think that we would see it proliferate as a fix in the in the in the other bill. But look, even if we can't fix the
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legislative process. I think courts can still do some good here. So if courts see a privacy bill that's gotten in the
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of defense investigations, they could be giving an adverse inference instruction to the jury. So this is an instruction that a judge can give to the jury in a trial, let's say.
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says, hey, defensive investigators tried to get some information and they weren't able to. And so you should presume that if they had, it would have been favorable to their case.
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that people just need to recognize that this is an issue. I think so. I think it's just one of knowledge. It's kind of like that rare $5 bill.
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that's just on the side of the sidewalk, you know, if we can pick it up and we can really fix this pretty easily.
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yeah. it's interesting. i mean, as i said, it was just one of those things that i had never thought about. and so it was sort of interesting to think through these issues-
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I just want to go back to what you were saying about the legitimate interest in privacy and that and it is so important but I just want to
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still lets defense council subpoena account holders for the information and so in the vast majority of circumstances if defense council's gonna be sending harass
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abuse of subpoenas or they're gonna be sending subpoenas that just have these bad privacy costs to them. Those costs are still gonna be there.
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they're just going to serve the subpoena on the countholder and by the way they don't have to give notice to other people's communications that are caught up in that account holders disclosure either right and so it's
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very strange.yeah. yeah. it's it is interesting, though. of course, there's always going to be some sort of judgment call then, right? if you were to say that the-
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there different, but i guess that gets to almost everything here, right? you have a judgment call over what should be absolutely protected and what should not be.yeah. and-
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And back to this point about the just reality of how these laws are passed, it's not as if lawmakers were deliberating and thinking, hey, you know,
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The law makers aren't thinking, hey, we really need to protect social media records the same way. This is an accident of the legislative process because law enforcement
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I've talked to some of the folks who are thinking about these laws and they'll
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yeah. yeah, no, it's really interesting. as i said, i mean, when you brought it up to me originally, i was just like, oh yeah. i mean, there was an angle i hadn't even-
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considered. and i'm sure that's the case with everyone who is supporting or pushing these laws. it's just there are so many different areas-
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have these models of symmetrical laws. We can have language in, I think last session in 2019, it was like eight of the federal private
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had these asymmetries built in, but there were other ones that had neutral language. So you can pass laws that just have exceptions for good faith, response to valid constitutions.
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fix this? and so is that the answer that you want, the language to be sort of symmetrical in some form?yeah. that's one answer. lawmakers who are drafting these bills that-
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need some of the same investigative tools. Right. And just for listeners, in case you somehow have missed the CCPA is the new California privacy law that just went into effect at the beginning
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or five of the CCPA. But it doesn't have that free pass for defense investigations. Right. And are we seeing this? I mean, there are a lot of other states
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state laws that are currently being debated and obviously a few different federal bills. and so do most of them have the same-
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symmetry yeah a lot of them have this asymmetry a lot of them do but what's what's what's fascinating is that some of them don't so how can jeffries bill from last from 2019
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arrested driving the getaway car moments after the shooting and threatened with prosecution. So she had a fifth amendment privilege not to produce the records. Remember your fifth amendment right to
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tried to appeal it, they got the California appellate court to review it and the appellate court said they weren't going to stop the judge's order and then they
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So when it went back down, the trial judge said, Hey, you got two levels of review time to hand over this evidence and they still said no.
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proposed ones and the past ones are well-intentioned and we need to have privacy as we're sending more and more data about our lives to intermediary
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So an example is that, well, first of all, we've got these transparency reports, and we like to know how many government requests there are to technology companies, but tech companies don't
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office there's inside technology companies will rely on the SCA to give over broad denials. So a defense attorney who doesn't realize there's this trickiest in the law might ask for both
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companies have created these portals just for law enforcement to make their lives even easier. Right.
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part of ecpa, the electronic communications privacy act, i think, is what it stands for. those were passed in 1986 and our in many ways, woeful-
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outdated. i mean, think about the world in 1986 versus the world today and how those laws were written and what they were thinking about. and there have been efforts for-
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They don't justify at least on a first glance, that doesn't justify the asymmetrical treatment. But in addition, we have safeguards against abuse of subpoenas that are
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already built into the subpoena power. So defense can't get a subpoena if the judge thinks they're just going on a fishing expedition. And the judge can quash the
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the judge can review it and make sure that the information really is evidence of innocence that the defendant needs to access. You can disclose information just to defense
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under a protective order. You can say this is limited to attorney's eyes only. It's not even going to go to the suspect. You can require that counsel to delete the data.
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guards to try to mitigate them. In addition to that, I mean, just think about the kinds of information that we're talking about here. So with social media records, the store communicates
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... basic description for our listeners of what this problem is and where you've seen it.sure. so, there's a troubling pattern. it's appears in past privacy laws. it...
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... deliberation.and, i mean, yeah, because i think.... i mean, one of the things that happens whenever you have these kinds...
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... kinds of laws is that there are competing interests. there are a ton of competing interests, more than more than i think anyone can possibly think about at any one...
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... it's to protect data from the government in some cases. and in a lot of cases, it's to protect the data from the way companies might use it. so...
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so can you give an example of where this is actually playing out, where there's a sort of imbalance?sure. yeah. so one of the most prominent examples and the reason...
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just take the contents of your Facebook posts or your email and publish them to the newspaper. There are limitations on when they can disclose that. And the law has expressed excitement.
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a avenue for police to get the information, whereas they aren't thinking about defense investigators who may be investigating the same people, the same facts and circumstances.
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So it's it's it's funny in a way that by trying to regulate law enforcement They actually end up making it relatively easier for law enforcement right and
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US, in which law enforcement's not obliged to investigate evidence of innocence. So they only have to disclose that information if they happen to come across it. They're under no duty
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to actively investigate a defendant's theory of the case. In our justice system, that duty belongs to Defense Council alone. And it is a duty of
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defense council. So if they don't investigate, you have an ineffective assistance claim. This is why we give defense council subpoena power, right?
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as this case of Lee Sullivan and Derek Hunter that's actually out of SF. So the two of them are young men, they were charged with participating in a drive
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by shooting. And the government's theory of that case was that the shooting was gang related. So the government introduced a lot of social media evidence to support their
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that this gang relationship motivated the defendants to participate in the shooting. Neither of them, by the way, is charged with actually pulling the trigger. And so the two defendants tried to
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