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And what did you do?	and what. did you,	And what. did you	and what did you do?
Well, first of all, I brought everyone together, the chief of police and the school superintendent. I showed them the statistics. I showed them the research that the more you arrest, the more you suspend, your dropout rates are going to go up, and that wasn't helping at all because most of these kids were not delinquen...	well first of all i brought everyone together the chief of police and the school superintendent i showed them the statistics i showed them the research that the more you arrest the more you suspend your dropout rates are going to go up and that. wasn't helping at. all because most of these kids; were not delinquent in ...	Well first of all I brought everyone together the chief of police and the school superintendent I showed them the statistics I, showed them the research that the more you arrest the more you, suspend your dropout rates are going to; go up and, that wasn't helping. at, all because most of these kids were not delinquent ...	well, first of all, i brought everyone together, the chief of police and the school superintendent. i showed them the statistics. i showed them the research that the more you arrest, the more you suspend, your dropout rates are going to go up, and that wasn't helping at all because most of these kids were not delinquen...
I mean the fact remains is that just because you commit a delinquent act doesn't make you delinquent. I committed delinquent acts. I didn't find myself in handcuffs.	i mean the fact remains is, that just because you commit a delinquent act doesn't make you delinquent i committed delinquent acts i didn't find myself in	I mean the fact remains is that just because you commit a delinquent act. doesn't make you delinquent I committed delinquent acts I didn't find myself in	i mean the fact remains is that just because you commit a delinquent act doesn't make you delinquent. i committed delinquent acts. i didn't find myself in handcuffs.
I did, too, and neither did I. but in other words, what you were trying to do was interrupt what some have described as the school-to-prison pipeline.	i did too and neither did i. but in, other words what you were trying to. do was interrupt what some have described as the school-to-prison	I did too and neither did I but in other words what you were trying to do was interrupt what some have. described as the school-to-prison	i did, too, and neither did i. but in other words, what you were trying to do was interrupt what some have described as the school-to-prison pipeline.
Absolutely, and so we got together. It took us nine months, and we developed a protocol to find another alternative. And what we did is that we decided not to arrest these kids and focus only on the more serious offenses. And so as a result, we had a dramatic decrease in the referrals to the juvenile court by 72 percen...	absolutely and so we got together it took us nine months and, we developed, a protocol to find another alternative. and what we did is. that we decided not to arrest these kids and focus only on the more serious offenses, and so as a result we had a dramatic, decrease in the referrals to the juvenile court by.	Absolutely and so we got together It took us nine months and, we, developed a protocol to find another alternative And what we did is that we decided not, to arrest these kids and focus only on the more serious offenses And. so as a. result we had a dramatic decrease. in the referrals, to the juvenile. court by	absolutely, and so we got together. it took us nine months, and we developed a protocol to find another alternative. and what we did is that we decided not to arrest these kids and focus only on the more serious offenses. and so as a result, we had a dramatic decrease in the referrals to the juvenile court by 72 percen...
But since then, our graduation rates have gone up 24 percent, and our serious weapon charges have gone down 70 percent.	but since then our. graduation, rates have gone up 24 percent and our serious weapon charges, have gone down	But since then our graduation. rates have gone up 24 percent and our serious weapon charges have gone down	but since then, our graduation rates have gone up 24 percent, and our serious weapon charges have gone down 70 percent.
So it seems to be working.	so it seems to be	So it seems to be	so it seems to be working.
It is working. It's all based on relationships because now the school police are on the campus all the time. The kids don't see them as the bad guys. And so they're building these relationships with the kids, and as a result, they're getting more information, and they're able to stop things from happening before they g...	it is working it's. all based on relationships because now, the school police are on the campus all the time the kids don't see them as the bad, guys and so they're building these relationships with the kids and as a result they're, getting more information and they're, able to stop things from happening before they, g...	It is working It's all based on relationships because now the school police are on the campus all. the time The kids don't see them as the bad guys And so they're building these relationships with; the kids and as a. result they're. getting more information, and they're able to stop things from happening. before they, ...	it is working. it's all based on relationships because now the school police are on the campus all the time. the kids don't see them as the bad guys. and so they're building these relationships with the kids, and as a result, they're getting more information, and they're able to stop things from happening before they g...
Stay with us, Judge, we want to hear your response to some of our callers, but there are other ways to try to keep low-level offenders out of prison. Also joining us is David Kennedy, a criminologist, author of the book "Don't Shoot: One Man, A Street Fellowship and the End of Violence in Inner-city America." He joins ...	stay. with us judge we want, to hear your response to some, of our callers but there are other ways to. try to keep. low-level offenders out of, prison, also joining. us. is david kennedy a criminologist. author of the book "don't shoot: one man a street. fellowship and the end of violence in inner-city, america" he jo...	Stay with us Judge we want to hear your response to some. of our callers but there. are other ways to try to, keep low-level offenders out of prison Also joining us is David Kennedy a criminologist author of the book "Don't, Shoot: One Man A Street Fellowship and, the End of Violence in Inner-city America" He joins us ...	stay with us, judge, we want to hear your response to some of our callers, but there are other ways to try to keep low-level offenders out of prison. also joining us is david kennedy, a criminologist, author of the book "don't shoot: one man, a street fellowship and the end of violence in inner-city america." he joins ...
Neal, Judge.	neal	Neal,	neal, judge.
And I know you've been brought in to different cities, Boston and Highpoint, North Carolina, for two, to work with law enforcement. And what is the approach that you've pioneered when you're dealing with low-level drug dealers?	and i know you've been brought in to different cities boston and highpoint north carolina for two to work with law; enforcement, and what is the. approach that you've pioneered when you're dealing with low-level drug	And, I. know. you've been brought in. to different cities Boston and Highpoint North Carolina for two to work with law, enforcement, And what is the approach. that you've, pioneered when you're dealing with low-level drug	and i know you've been brought in to different cities, boston and highpoint, north carolina, for two, to work with law enforcement. and what is the approach that you've pioneered when you're dealing with low-level drug dealers?
Well, the judge said it: It's all based on relationships. And he's really exactly right. That's a wonderful story he's telling. And this stuff works not just with low-level offending but with, as it turns out, some extremely serious stuff.	well the judge said it: it's, all based on relationships and he's really exactly right that's a wonderful story he's telling and this. stuff works not just with low-level offending but with as it turns out some, extremely serious	Well the judge said it: It's all based on relationships And he's really exactly, right That's a. wonderful story he's telling And this stuff, works not just with low-level offending but with as it turns out some extremely. serious	well, the judge said it: it's all based on relationships. and he's really exactly right. that's a wonderful story he's telling. and this stuff works not just with low-level offending but with, as it turns out, some extremely serious stuff.
And what we do with the drug dealers is recognize again what the judge just said, that in our quest to protect these institutions, his are schools and mine are these neighborhoods, we are doing tremendous unintended damage. And these are neighborhoods with open-air drug markets and crack houses and white drive-through ...	and what we do with the drug. dealers is recognize, again what. the judge just said that in our quest to protect, these institutions. his are schools and mine are these neighborhoods we are doing tremendous, unintended damage and, these are neighborhoods. with open-air drug markets and crack houses and white drive-thro...	And what we do with; the drug dealers is recognize again what the judge just said that in our, quest to protect these institutions his are schools and mine are these neighborhoods we are doing tremendous unintended damage And these are neighborhoods with open-air drug markets and crack, houses and white drive-through b...	and what we do with the drug dealers is recognize again what the judge just said, that in our quest to protect these institutions, his are schools and mine are these neighborhoods, we are doing tremendous unintended damage. and these are neighborhoods with open-air drug markets and crack houses and white drive-through ...
And most of the men can end up with criminal records, at which point they're doomed, and their community is damaged. And so what we do instead is identify the drug dealers - there are never that many, even in the most distressed neighborhood - get a case ready to go, look at whether they're violent or not. If they're v...	and most of the men can end up with criminal records, at which point they're, doomed and their community is damaged and so what we do instead is identify the drug dealers - there are. never. that many even in the most distressed neighborhood - get a, case ready to go look at whether they're violent or; not if they're v...	And most of, the men can end up with criminal records at which; point they're doomed and. their community is damaged And so what we do instead is. identify the drug. dealers - there are never that many even, in the most distressed neighborhood - get, a case ready to go look at whether they're violent or not If they're....	and most of the men can end up with criminal records, at which point they're doomed, and their community is damaged. and so what we do instead is identify the drug dealers - there are never that many, even in the most distressed neighborhood - get a case ready to go, look at whether they're violent or not. if they're v...
If they're not, rather than arresting them, we go to their parents and grandparents. We talk to everybody. We have a community meeting, and in the community meeting, the community says we need you to stop what you're doing. We are for you, but we are against a couple of things you're doing. We would like to help you. W...	if they're not rather than arresting them we go to their parents and grandparents we talk to everybody we have a community meeting and in the community meeting the community says. we need you to stop what you're doing. we are for you but we are against a couple of things you're doing we. would like to. help you; we wou...	If. they're not, rather than arresting them we go to their parents and grandparents We talk to everybody We have. a community meeting and in the community. meeting the. community says we need you to stop what you're doing We are for you but we are against, a couple of things, you're doing We would like to help you We, ...	if they're not, rather than arresting them, we go to their parents and grandparents. we talk to everybody. we have a community meeting, and in the community meeting, the community says we need you to stop what you're doing. we are for you, but we are against a couple of things you're doing. we would like to help you. w...
And the police say we don't want to ruin your life. If you stop, we will suspend this case, but we are putting you on notice that the next time you go to the corner and sell drugs, we need no more evidence, we need no new information, we open the jacket, we sign the warrant, you will go to jail, and you are now on prio...	and the police say we don't want to ruin your life if, you stop we will suspend this case but we are putting you on notice that the next time, you go to the corner and sell drugs we need no more evidence we need no new; information we open, the jacket we sign the warrant you will go to jail and you are now on prior not...	And the police say we don't want to ruin your life If you stop we will suspend this case but, we. are putting you on notice that. the next time you go to the corner and sell drugs we need no more evidence we need no new information we open the jacket we sign the warrant you will go to jail and you are, now on prior not...	and the police say we don't want to ruin your life. if you stop, we will suspend this case, but we are putting you on notice that the next time you go to the corner and sell drugs, we need no more evidence, we need no new information, we open the jacket, we sign the warrant, you will go to jail, and you are now on prio...
Nearly everybody stops.	nearly everybody	Nearly everybody	nearly everybody stops.
Nearly everybody stops.	nearly everybody	Nearly everybody	nearly everybody stops.
Because most of those people who are selling drugs are users, too.	because, most of those people who are selling drugs are users	Because most of those people who are selling drugs are; users	because most of those people who are selling drugs are users, too.
It's not so much that, although there's truth to that. The main thing that happens is the community norm that says we don't want this is very clear. The community and the police start seeing each other in different ways, just as the judge said happens with the police and his kids. They're not the antagonists at odds th...	it's not. so much that although there's truth to that the main thing that happens is the community norm. that says we don't want this, is, very clear the community and the police start seeing each other in different ways just as the judge. said happens with the police and his kids they're. not the antagonists at, odds ...	It's not so much that although there's truth to that The main thing that happens is, the community norm that, says, we don't want this is very clear The community and the police start seeing each other in different ways just as the judge said. happens with the police, and his kids They're not, the antagonists at odds t...	it's not so much that, although there's truth to that. the main thing that happens is the community norm that says we don't want this is very clear. the community and the police start seeing each other in different ways, just as the judge said happens with the police and his kids. they're not the antagonists at odds th...
The potential offenders know that the next time they offend, there's an almost certain likelihood that there will be a sanction, which is not the world they usually live in, and you disrupt the pattern in the neighborhood that keeps this drug market cycle going.	the potential offenders know, that the next time they offend there's an almost certain likelihood that there, will be a sanction which is not the world they usually live in and, you disrupt the pattern. in, the neighborhood that keeps this drug market cycle	The potential offenders know that the next time they offend there's an almost certain likelihood that there, will be a sanction which is not the world they usually live in and you disrupt. the pattern in the neighborhood that keeps. this drug, market cycle	the potential offenders know that the next time they offend, there's an almost certain likelihood that there will be a sanction, which is not the world they usually live in, and you disrupt the pattern in the neighborhood that keeps this drug market cycle going.
The guys on the corner, so the buyers come in, so the sellers go to the corner and so the buyers come in, you can break that dynamic, and the neighborhood is a different place.	the guys on the, corner so the buyers come in so the sellers go to the corner and so the buyers come in you. can break that dynamic and the neighborhood is a different	The guys on the corner so the buyers come in so the sellers go to the corner and so the buyers come in you can break, that dynamic and the. neighborhood is a different	the guys on the corner, so the buyers come in, so the sellers go to the corner and so the buyers come in, you can break that dynamic, and the neighborhood is a different place.
NPR senior news analyst Daniel Schorr.	npr senior news analyst daniel	NPR senior news analyst Daniel	npr senior news analyst daniel schorr.
And also instead of the generalized deterrence - if you commit a crime, the police will find you and send you to jail - this is very specific. You, Mr. Jones, the next time we see you, if you're bad, you're going to jail.	and also instead of the generalized deterrence - if you commit a crime the police will find you and send you to jail - this is very specific you mr jones the next time we see you if you're bad you're going to	And also instead of the generalized deterrence - if you commit a crime the, police will find you and send you to jail - this is very specific You Mr Jones the next time we see you if you're bad you're going to	and also instead of the generalized deterrence - if you commit a crime, the police will find you and send you to jail - this is very specific. you, mr. jones, the next time we see you, if you're bad, you're going to jail.
That's right.	that's	That's	that's right.
I wonder, Judge, what's your reaction to that?	i wonder judge what's your reaction, to	I wonder Judge. what's your reaction to	i wonder, judge, what's your reaction to that?
Well, I agree. In fact, I have to confess I'm familiar with David's work, and his work was cited as part of the research around the part about building relationships and trying to help the police to take a cognitive shift in looking at how to do what I call better policing.	well i agree in fact i have to confess i'm. familiar with david's work and his work was cited as part of the research around the part about building relationships and trying, to help the police to take a cognitive shift, in looking at how to do what i call, better	Well I agree In fact I have to confess I'm familiar with David's work and, his work was, cited as part of. the research around the part about building relationships. and trying to help the police to, take a cognitive shift in looking, at how to do what I call better	well, i agree. in fact, i have to confess i'm familiar with david's work, and his work was cited as part of the research around the part about building relationships and trying to help the police to take a cognitive shift in looking at how to do what i call better policing.
And let me say this. You know, I agree - and this whole thing around school safety has extended beyond the scope of the schools because what's happened is that, you know, our police, our school police used to be called kiddie cops. No one calls them kiddie cops anymore.	and; let, me say this you know i agree - and this. whole thing around school safety has extended beyond the scope of the schools because what's happened is that you know our. police our school police, used to, be called kiddie. cops no one calls them kiddie cops	And let. me say this You know I agree - and, this whole thing around school; safety has extended, beyond the, scope of the; schools because. what's happened is that you know our police our school police used to, be called. kiddie cops No one calls, them kiddie cops	and let me say this. you know, i agree - and this whole thing around school safety has extended beyond the scope of the schools because what's happened is that, you know, our police, our school police used to be called kiddie cops. no one calls them kiddie cops anymore.
For example, you know, we've had a couple school resource officers been named officer of the year and cited for solving more crimes in the community, including homicides, than any other police officer because the detectives know that they need the SROs because they're a rich resource because of the type of relationship...	for example you, know we've had a couple school resource officers been named officer of, the year and cited for solving more crimes, in the community including homicides than any. other police officer because the detectives know that they need the sros because they're a rich resource because of the type, of relationshi...	For example you know we've had a couple, school resource officers been named officer of, the year and cited for solving more crimes in the community. including, homicides than any other police officer because the detectives know that they need. the SROs because. they're a rich resource because of the, type of relations...	for example, you know, we've had a couple school resource officers been named officer of the year and cited for solving more crimes in the community, including homicides, than any other police officer because the detectives know that they need the sros because they're a rich resource because of the type of relationship...
I mean, think about it. Police, one of the greatest tactics for police is gathering intelligence to prevent crime and to solve crimes. You're not going to do that if you're going to distort relationships. It's like, you know, the wolves and the sheep. You don't - you know, you've got to protect the sheep but, you know,...	i mean think about it police, one of the greatest tactics for police is gathering, intelligence to prevent crime and. to solve crimes you're not going to do that if you're going to, distort relationships it's like, you know the wolves and the sheep you don't - you; know, you've got to protect the sheep but you know. so...	I mean think, about it. Police one of the, greatest tactics for; police is gathering intelligence to prevent crime and to solve crimes You're not going to do; that, if you're going to distort relationships It's like you know the wolves, and the sheep You don't - you know you've got to protect the sheep but you know so ...	i mean, think about it. police, one of the greatest tactics for police is gathering intelligence to prevent crime and to solve crimes. you're not going to do that if you're going to distort relationships. it's like, you know, the wolves and the sheep. you don't - you know, you've got to protect the sheep but, you know,...
Schools are a microcosm of the community. But you know what? The kids can tell you what's going on, but they're not going to talk to you if you're beating them up.	schools are a microcosm of the community but. you know what? the kids, can tell you what's going. on but, they're not going, to; talk to you if you're. beating them.	Schools are a. microcosm of the community But you know what? The kids can tell you what's going on but they're not going to talk to you if you're, beating them	schools are a microcosm of the community. but you know what? the kids can tell you what's going on, but they're not going to talk to you if you're beating them up.
And that goes, I assume, David Kennedy, as I read, a lot of the evidence that you have against these street-corner drug dealers is videotape evidence. It's not necessarily snitches.	and. that goes i assume david kennedy, as, i read a lot of the. evidence that, you have, against these street-corner drug dealers is videotape evidence it's not necessarily	And that goes I assume David Kennedy. as I read a lot of the evidence that you have against these street-corner drug dealers is videotape evidence It's not necessarily	and that goes, i assume, david kennedy, as i read, a lot of the evidence that you have against these street-corner drug dealers is videotape evidence. it's not necessarily snitches.
That's right, but there are all kinds of clever ways, it turns out, to use very traditional legal powers in new and strategy ways and get very different results. And that's important. What's even more important is what you just heard from Judge Teske, which is that the most important force for good in a community or sc...	that's; right but there are all. kinds of, clever ways it. turns out to use very traditional legal powers in new and strategy ways and get very different results and that's important what's even more important is what you just heard from judge, teske which, is that the most important force for, good in a community or s...	That's right but there are all kinds of clever ways it turns out to. use very. traditional legal powers in new and, strategy ways and get very different results And that's important What's even more important is what, you just heard, from Judge Teske which is that the most, important force for good in a community or sc...	that's right, but there are all kinds of clever ways, it turns out, to use very traditional legal powers in new and strategy ways and get very different results. and that's important. what's even more important is what you just heard from judge teske, which is that the most important force for good in a community or sc...
And they need help. They need help from law enforcement. They need help from the rest of us. But no community wants to be dangerous or sick or frightened or worry about its kids dying or all of its men going to prison. Communities don't want to live like that.	and they need help they need. help from law enforcement they need, help from the rest of us but no community wants to be dangerous or sick or frightened or worry about its kids dying or all of its men going to prison communities don't want to live like	And they need help They need help from law enforcement They need help from the rest of us But no community wants to be dangerous or sick or frightened or worry about its kids dying or all of its. men going to prison Communities don't want to. live like	and they need help. they need help from law enforcement. they need help from the rest of us. but no community wants to be dangerous or sick or frightened or worry about its kids dying or all of its men going to prison. communities don't want to live like that.
And over about 30 years, this country has locked up more and more and more and more people. This is a country now where if you are a black man, you stand a one in three chance that you will go to prison during your lifetime. Those men overwhelmingly come from historically distressed minority communities, especially bla...	and over about 30 years this country has locked up more and more and more. and more people this is a. country now where if you are a black man you stand a one in three chance that you will go to prison during your lifetime those men overwhelmingly come from historically distressed minority communities especially black	And over about 30 years this country has locked up more and more and more, and. more people, This is a country now where if. you are a black man you stand a one in three chance that you will go to prison during your lifetime Those men overwhelmingly come from historically distressed minority communities especially. bla...	and over about 30 years, this country has locked up more and more and more and more people. this is a country now where if you are a black man, you stand a one in three chance that you will go to prison during your lifetime. those men overwhelmingly come from historically distressed minority communities, especially bla...
And in the name of protecting them, we have been locking everybody up. We have been kicking their doors in. We have been stopping them on the street. One of my black friends says if you want to destroy a civilization, lock it up, and he's right.	and in the name of protecting them we have been locking everybody up we have been kicking their doors in we have been stopping, them on the street, one; of my black friends says if you want to destroy a civilization lock it up; and he's	And in the name of protecting them we have been locking everybody up, We have been kicking their doors in We have been stopping them on the street One of my black friends says if you want to destroy a civilization, lock it up and he's.	and in the name of protecting them, we have been locking everybody up. we have been kicking their doors in. we have been stopping them on the street. one of my black friends says if you want to destroy a civilization, lock it up, and he's right.
And just as happened with Judge Teske's kids, we have alienated these neighborhoods. They don't want to talk to us. They don't want to talk to the cops. They see the outside as an oppressive force, and things just get worse. You can reverse that, and you can bring out the norm, the standards, the desire of any communit...	and just as happened with judge teske's kids we have, alienated these, neighborhoods they don't want to talk to. us they don't want. to talk to the cops they see the outside as an oppressive. force and, things just get worse you can reverse that and you can bring out, the norm the standards the, desire of any community...	And just as happened with Judge Teske's kids we have alienated these neighborhoods; They don't want to talk to us. They don't want to talk. to the cops. They see the outside as an oppressive force and things just get worse You can reverse that and you can. bring out the norm the standards, the desire of any community t...	and just as happened with judge teske's kids, we have alienated these neighborhoods. they don't want to talk to us. they don't want to talk to the cops. they see the outside as an oppressive force, and things just get worse. you can reverse that, and you can bring out the norm, the standards, the desire of any communit...
Briefly, we just have a few seconds before the break, but Judge Teske, you mentioned some categories of minor crimes that this program works on in schools. Does that include drug crimes?	briefly we just have a few seconds before the break but judge teske you mentioned some categories of minor. crimes that; this program works on in schools does that include drug	Briefly we just have a few seconds before the break, but Judge Teske you mentioned some categories of minor crimes that this program works on in schools Does that include drug	briefly, we just have a few seconds before the break, but judge teske, you mentioned some categories of minor crimes that this program works on in schools. does that include drug crimes?
Yes. I mean, the program was not initially designed for drug crimes, but the police have started to broaden it on their own. Even though the protocol is specific about these certain what we call focus acts or soft offenses, over the last several years, the police, in seeing it work, have stopped making their own arrest...	yes i mean the program was not initially designed for drug crimes but the police have started to broaden it on their own even though the protocol is specific about these certain what we call focus acts or soft offenses over, the last several years the police in seeing it work have stopped making their own arrests on th...	Yes I mean the program was not initially designed for drug crimes but, the police have started to broaden it on their own Even though the protocol is specific about these certain what we call focus acts or soft offenses over the. last several years the police in; seeing it, work have; stopped making their. own arrests ...	yes. i mean, the program was not initially designed for drug crimes, but the police have started to broaden it on their own. even though the protocol is specific about these certain what we call focus acts or soft offenses, over the last several years, the police, in seeing it work, have stopped making their own arrest...
I mean, instead of making the referral, they'll work with the kids and call it in to the court.	i mean instead of making the referral they'll work with the, kids and call it in. to the;	I mean instead of making the. referral they'll work with the. kids and call it in to the,	i mean, instead of making the referral, they'll work with the kids and call it in to the court.