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From day one, we have said that loss of jobs is a big concern for us with this legislation. Building capability in any sector takes several years. We need those people in the tertiary education sector. But, with this reform, I fear that we are going to lose that capability, and then it will be up to us when we come bac... |
During the select committee process, as I said, changes were made. I want to acknowledge all submitters. It's because of their concerns that they expressed in the select committee process that changes to the legislation have been made. But, of course, there were other concerns expressed by submitters that were not take... |
But then, because of the pressure on the select committee to report back this legislation as it was stated to be reported back, we had to sit in subcommittees. This is very important legislation, and for us in Opposition, all our education spokespeople wanted to be on the select committee to hear from these submitters,... |
Now, as we have just heard from the Minister, there is going to be a Supplementary Order Paper to address some other concerns. So we can see that this process is a very, very rushed process, and anything to do with students and the future of our country should not be rushed like this. But this Government doesn't care, ... |
As I said, yes, changes were made. I want to acknowledge that. The other change that I want to acknowledge in the select committee process, as I have said before, is that the redundancy conditions for workers is something that we have been talking about from day one, from the day this legislation was introduced. That w... |
The other issue that was addressed during the select committee process, which I want to touch on briefly, is academic freedom. This was actually a big concern expressed by several submitters, and it was important that it was addressed in the select committee process and that it was clarified, because with WDCs, the wor... |
So I want to acknowledge these changes and several other changes which were made in the select committee process, but still the approach that this legislation takes is the problem. The approach of this legislation is to reform this vocational education system by bringing in a centralised model. That doesn't work, and w... |
As we have just heard from the member who resumed her seat, she talked about there being no opportunity for industry to provide their input in the current system. And, actually, industry said that they are not supportive of these changes. I don't know what kind of industry she was talking about. We know the Tertiary Ed... |
With workforce development councils, in regard to that, there were several submissions. Those submitters said that they were concerned about the disestablishment of ITOs—industry training organisations—but that concern is out of the scope of this legislation. So there were several concerns that came through during the ... |
Going to the point of localism, I want to bring this to everybody's attention: there were more submitters, those who supported localism, who didn't support a centralised model, and there were fewer submitters who supported that. Fifteen submitters were opposed to that centralised NZIST model which is being proposed thr... |
Hon TRACEY MARTIN (Associate Minister of Education): Kia ora, Madam Speaker. First speech of 2020, here I go! I've been told to be short and snappy and to the point. So the first thing is, just with regard to comments that— |
Simeon Brown: Particularly the "to the point" part! |
Hon TRACEY MARTIN: I mean, I know it's the embodiment of me: short and snappy and to that point. Just to start this off with the amazing comment made by the previous speaker, Parmjeet Parmar. Now, it's been recognised that 13 out of 16 of the polytechs, when this Government came into Government, were going to fail. The... |
I'm going to make a jump—I'm going to make a leap—but I'm going to say that that speaker is talking about the actions we've taken to protect this nation from coronavirus. That's the only thing I can think of, because with regard to international students, it's been a couple of years and the polytechs were already in de... |
So the other comments that have been made by Shane Reti—and I like Shane Reti. I enjoy listening to Shane Reti. I mean, there is a man of intelligence and integrity. I believe that to be true. Sometimes he's wrong, but he has intelligence and integrity. Now, what he talked about there was he said that this legislation ... |
There is a reasonable amount of urgency. Definitely that is true around fixing the vocational education system in this country. One of them is because we can't keep pouring $100 million into a broken system. The three polytechs that actually were making money, even if we talk about their ability to do that locally and ... |
The other thing I find fascinating—and I want to thank all those business owners and industry training organisations (ITOs) and Māori enterprise and so on that came to see me specifically so that I could draw them and go through with them where the areas of concern are in the model that we've got here because of the sc... |
Simeon Brown: Could have done a Facebook video. |
Hon TRACEY MARTIN: So the young man calling out is Simeon Brown. He doesn't actually know the topic, ladies and gentlemen, but he's happy to call out. |
Anyway, so what they were—and it was actually employers and the ITOs. They came and they said, "We absolutely know that this has got to change. This has got to change. We've got young people coming out with debt and they've got qualifications that are useless when they show up at our door. We need to make sure that we ... |
The workforce development councils—there are twofold parts to them. One of them is based on the Ōtorohanga model—that is the New Zealand First influence inside the workforce development councils. Go and google the Ōtorohanga model and the model about finding out from local business what the local skills are that you ne... |
The flip side of that is that for the first time in a long time, actual industry is going to have control over 80 percent of the spend in vocational training through the workforce development councils. They are going to say, "This is workforce planning that that Government, they took away the leadership around workforc... |
The workforce development councils are going to take us back to the support we need, talking to business and industry and sector and saying, "These are the skills we need for New Zealand to go forward. These are the skills and these are the numbers of skilled young people that we need to make sure that they can be in e... |
SIMEON BROWN (National—Pakuranga): Thank you, Madam Speaker, and happy New Year. It's great to be back. The only part of that speech that I agree with the Associate Minister of Education on was, "I like Shane Reti.", because I do like Shane Reti, too. He's a good man. |
The Minister said in her speech that 13 of the 16 polytechs were failing because they were in deficit. Well, according to her logic, 11 of the 12 DHBs must also be failing because they are in deficit, and also this Government is in deficit, so is this Government also failing? An extraordinary thing for this Minister of... |
It's a pleasure to be able to take a call on the second reading of the Education (Vocational Education and Training Reform) Amendment Bill. I'd like to just start by acknowledging the Minister of Education for bringing this bill to the House. This bill does make significant reforms in this area. I'd like to also acknow... |
These reforms represent a significant risk to training and apprenticeships here in New Zealand. The Tertiary Education Commission programme business case says that this bill will lead to 18,000 fewer trainees across New Zealand over the medium term, and 2,300 fewer apprenticeships. When the Minister says that this bill... |
I'd like to also just point out from the submitters their concerns over what this will mean for their industry. I'd like to quote from the submission from the New Zealand Association of Registered Hairdressers, where they said that, "While we understand the desire for some change, we do not support the level of risk fo... |
The second point I'd like to raise is the loss of regional autonomy in this bill. There has been mixed views from our polytechs to this question, but what is true is that they are all losing local decision-making. They are losing control over their local assets, and they will no longer have control over these decisions... |
I'd like to quote from two submitters from two polytechs where they raised significant concerns about these issues. Firstly, from Otago polytech, where they said that this bill will impede "local decision-making and flexibility and compromises innovation by providing for the dissolution of subsidiaries, defines an exce... |
Hon Clare Curran: You didn't even turn up in Dunedin. |
SIMEON BROWN: —in their submission—and there's the member for Dunedin South complaining about the SIT and talking about how bad they must be at their job, when in fact they're one of the most successful polytechs in the country. I think that she should be ashamed of the comments that she's making. The SIT said, "SIT an... |
Finally, I'd like to touch on the issue of academic freedom, where there has been a range of submissions from all sorts of sector groups on this issue. The Tertiary Education Union even submitted, making it very clear that they were not pleased with the crackdown, essentially, of academic expression and academic freedo... |
So, overall, Madam Speaker, I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak on this bill. The National Party continues to oppose it for a variety of reasons, but we do thank the submitters, we do thank them for their views, and we look forward to the committee of the whole House stage. We will be bringing rigorous Sup... |
CHLÖE SWARBRICK (Green): E Te Māngai, tēnā koe. Tēnā koutou e Te Whare. It's a pleasure to rise and speak on the Education (Vocational Education and Training Reform) Amendment Bill in my first speech in the House this year. Happy parliamentary New Year, colleagues. |
I want to first ask the question, because it's come across from both speakers on the Government side of the House and, actually, arguably from members of the Opposition that we have the same shared values in what we're trying to achieve here, with that being a coherent, connected-up, working sector for institutes of te... |
Speaking to a number of those who are engaged in the polytech sector, those who are quite high up the hierarchy, who I'd hope that members of the Opposition—the likes of Dr Shane Reti—have also spoken to, it would very much seem as though the implication that has been derived by those members of the polytech sector com... |
Nicola Willis: It's hearsay. |
CHLÖE SWARBRICK: If the Opposition are able to mention anecdotes and conversations with those out in the community, I will quite happily refer to those out in the community in Southland—the likes of Southern Institute of Technology (SIT) and Otago. So, again, I want to really draw attention back to the fact that we see... |
For example, the speaker who just sat down—Simeon Brown from the Opposition—mentioned the fact that it's going to cost between $200 million and $400 million for these reforms. What's the alternative? Well, the alternative is to continue pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into a system which is not serving communit... |
Indeed, as many submitters before the Education and Workforce Committee mentioned—I'm stoked that I got to sit in for a portion of it. Unfortunately, now, I'm no longer a member. But many of those submitters spoke about how this was the most transformative change to the vocational education sector in a generation, and ... |
I'm also fascinated to hear from members of the Opposition—the former National Government—that they are big fans of localism. I'm really, really excited about the potential that that offers for us to work together as the Greens and as National on reforms to local government and handing over more power to local governme... |
Nicola Willis: And yet you've centralised the polytechs—what a contradiction. Have you read the bill? |
CHLÖE SWARBRICK: So when it comes to what we are trying to achieve here—it is contained within the bill; it is contained within the bill, Nicola Willis—there will be the establishment of the New Zealand Institute of Skills and Training. The pathway, the transitional means by which we get there, is laid out in one of th... |
I'd also like to touch on a number of the points that were raised in the first reading—which I'm thankful that the Opposition are no longer speaking about, because it's demonstrably untrue, if you read the bill—that there will no longer be on-the-job training. There will absolutely continue to be on-the-job training. I... |
So too, I want to talk about the charter, because I think that that is a really critical point, and I'd note that a number of submitters, including those from polytechs, raised that they thought it was really crucially important that we had this charter here to outline the principles that will guide NZIST. I think it's... |
I just, finally, want to touch on the experience of those who are actually inside the system and navigating it as learners. The average age of those who are in the vocational education sector who are educating or upskilling themselves and taking on that task of learning is 27 years old. That is substantially older than... |
So, in summary, I'm really confused about what the National Party are putting forward. I would invite them to share their Supplementary Order Papers that they are threatening to drop on the Table, last minute, in the committee of the whole House, because if they really want to collaborate, there's an opportunity to do ... |
The Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand is proud to support this bill at its second reading. |
ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson): I apologise to the member for not giving her her two-minute warning bell—I was engrossed in Speakers' rulings on interjections—and if I could just remind the member who's about to take the call that a number of Speakers' rulings refer to interjections being rare and reasonable. I'm s... |
NICOLA WILLIS (National): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I was struck by the contradictions in Chlöe Swarbrick's speech in which she spoke of the value of localism and then championed a bill which absolutely defeats localism, defeats regional control, and puts absolute primacy on centralisation—on the Government knowing bes... |
Now, you have heard speakers on this side of the House address many of the challenges and problems that this bill will create for our tertiary sector. But sometimes the words of the Opposition aren't given as much credence as they should be. |
So I want to turn to the words of the Tertiary Education Commission, an entity, controlled by the Government, who did a risk assessment of the proposals in this bill. Now, what that risk assessment said was that the following risks were almost certain. Let me run you through them. The first was that there was an almost... |
The next thing that the Tertiary Education Commission warned was that there was an almost certain likelihood of a major drop in participation in vocational education—an almost certain risk of a major drop in participation in vocational education. That risk has been quantified. This is on-the-job training. This is the t... |
The third risk they warned of was that, they said, there was an extreme risk that the needs of industry and employers would not be met, and that this would have an extreme impact—the needs of industry and employers won't be met. So instead we'll have this centralised entity running all of our polytechs and industry tra... |
The Tertiary Education Commission also warned that there was a likelihood that the needs of regions would not be met and that this would have an extreme impact, exactly as we've been saying on this side of the House, that contrary to Chlöe Swarbrick's assertion that this was some version of localisation, actually, the ... |
This bill will be opposed by National because it is a typical Labour example of centralisation and Government knows best. We have grave concerns about the loss of regional autonomy. We have grave concerns that the regional leadership groups will be advisory at best and that there will be a significant loss of community... |
ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Ruth Dyson): This is a split call. Jo Luxton. |
JO LUXTON (Labour): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I'm really pleased to stand and take a call on this piece of legislation. Before I begin my contribution, I just want to reiterate what some of the other members have said that we constantly hear: this negative, negative, negative from the other side—it's all doom and gloom... |
What this piece of legislation does is take into account students and employers. I will say that the previous speaker, Nicola Willis, is the only speaker from the Opposition that I've heard talk about students and their needs. So I would like to acknowledge her for that. What we have seen is that there's been a total m... |
I'd like to commend our Minister of Education for being ambitious for our vocational education system and aspirational for our learners. I commend this bill to the House. |
ERICA STANFORD (National—East Coast Bays): I'm pleased to rise to take a call on the Education (Vocational Education and Training Reform) Amendment Bill. I'd just like to briefly speak to the last speaker's contribution. Jo Luxton said that we cannot carry on as we were, spending millions of taxpayers' money on some so... |
The speech from Chlöe Swarbrick, which was basically based completely on contradictions and hearsay, brilliantly summed that up, where she talked so strongly about the need for localism and then backed a bill that does exactly the opposite. This grand centralised mother ship of Labour of "we know best", they did it in ... |
I don't need to say much more on this. My learned colleagues have already pointed out all of the failures of this bill, so I'm not going to go into any more detail other than to say that we strongly oppose this bill. |
MARJA LUBECK (Labour): Tēnā koe e Te Māngai o Te Whare. I'm excited to take a super-brief call on this bill, because, actually, a lot of it has been said and it actually has all been said on this side of the House, obviously. But it is so clear that this side of the House is doing the hard miles, tackling all those lon... |
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