Unnamed: 0 int64 0 47k | index int64 0 357 | q_a stringlengths 22 51.4k ⌀ |
|---|---|---|
45,800 | 326 | QUESTION:
MS FRASER BUTLIN:ANSWER:
SIR BRIAN LANGSTAFF: |
45,801 | 326 | QUESTION:
MS FRASER BUTLIN:ANSWER:
SIR BRIAN LANGSTAFF: |
45,802 | 326 | QUESTION:
MS FRASER BUTLIN:ANSWER:
SIR BRIAN LANGSTAFF: |
45,803 | 326 | QUESTION:
MS FRASER BUTLIN:ANSWER:
SIR BRIAN LANGSTAFF: |
45,804 | 326 | QUESTION:
MS FRASER BUTLIN:ANSWER:
SIR BRIAN LANGSTAFF: |
45,805 | 326 | QUESTION:
MS FRASER BUTLIN:ANSWER:
SIR BRIAN LANGSTAFF: |
45,806 | 326 | QUESTION:
MS FRASER BUTLIN:ANSWER:
SIR BRIAN LANGSTAFF: |
45,807 | 326 | QUESTION:
MS FRASER BUTLIN:ANSWER:
SIR BRIAN LANGSTAFF: |
45,808 | 326 | QUESTION:
MS FRASER BUTLIN:ANSWER:
A. |
45,809 | 326 | QUESTION:
I think that would be
a
fair reading of
the document
,
sir
. It's certainly
a
conclusion you
could
reach.
It
is clear
, however,
that there was an issue
about donors who self-
ex
cluded from donating and
wouldn't then become known to the blood services
subsequent
ly.
Dr Hewitt has raised this ... |
45,810 | 326 | QUESTION:
A.ANSWER:
SIR BRIAN LANGSTAFF: |
45,811 | 326 | QUESTION:
SIR BRIAN LANGSTAFF:ANSWER:
MS FRASER BUTLIN: |
45,812 | 326 | QUESTION:
MS FRASER BUTLIN:ANSWER:
SIR BRIAN LANGSTAFF: |
45,813 | 327 | null |
45,814 | 328 | QUESTION:
And that was the worry
?
"ANSWER:
Yes.
" |
45,815 | 328 | QUESTION:
Was the
worry directed at economics
or safety
or
a
com
bination of both?
"ANSWER:
For us
,
safety was paramount: we wished to
48
minimise exposure of patients to commercial
concentrates
.
" |
45,816 | 328 | QUESTION:
Does the article bring that out?
"
ANSWER:
Probably
not as clearly as
it
could, although
I should say we were writing against the background
of
the
[
World Health Organisation
]
recommendations of
1975. This is
a
very important document which
I suggest you read."
Then he sets out the WHO decla... |
45,817 | 328 | QUESTION:
What was the reaction
from
within the
profession
to
that article?
"
ANSWER:
I cannot honestly say. As far as
I am
aware
-- virtually zero, at least outside the
Scottish
Health Service.
"
|
45,818 | 328 | QUESTION:
A
voice in the wilderness?
"
ANSWER:
Perhaps, but at that time there wasn't
a
satisfactory forum in which
a
corporate reaction
could be generated."
Then the question is put about self-sufficiency in
Scotland
:
10 November 2021
... |
45,819 | 328 | QUESTION:
Insofar as you were not self sufficien
t
between 1975 and 1983, where were you buying your
commercial factor VIII concentrate?
"
ANSWER:
Yes, but this purchasing exercise was
,
as in
England and Wales
,
the responsibility of local Health
Authorities,
[
Haemophiliac
]
Centres, hospital
pharmacists
,... |
45,820 | 328 | QUESTION:
Would you know where they bought from?
"ANSWER:
They would buy from the identical sources our
friends in England and Wales
--
primarily the
[
USA
],
because
,
to the best of
my
knowledge
,
this was the
primary source in those days."
Then you see
a
reference,
sir
,
to
the
conversation
with ... |
45,821 | 328 | QUESTION:
Can I read to you part of Graham Ross'
s
note arising out of your telephone conversation with
him on 28 November 1989 and ask you to say whether or
not
it
accurately reflects your views
...
"
Then the quote is:
"Appointed Medical Director of
[
SNBTS
]
in 1979.
At no time during the period he held that... |
45,822 | 328 | QUESTION:
A
total
lack of meaningful infrastructure?
"
ANSWER:
Yes."
Then if we just
go
over the page
,
a
couple of
final passages in this, the second paragraph down is
a
question about importing American concentrates and
58
what is said is this:
"
It
has
been said to us by
a
virologist
that
this ... |
45,823 | 328 | QUESTION:
And this risk had long been recognised?
"
ANSWER:
Yes."
So there Professor Cash's views recorded in
1990
,
touching on both issues of risk and on matters
of self-sufficiency in both Scotland and England.
With apologies to everyone for depriving them of their
tea and coffee for ten minutes, perhaps we
... |
45,824 | 329 | null |
45,825 | 330 | QUESTION:
Thank you. When do you say they made
their
final decision
as
it
were
to
go
ahead?
"
ANSWER:
July 1990
,
subject to
a
pilot trial."
Then
,
if we
go
over to page 53
,
if we pick
it
up
at 2610
,
or 2609:
"
|
45,826 | 330 | QUESTION:
So when did you say
a
decision in principle
was made
?
"
ANSWER:
I said the decision in principle that we
must test was November 1989."
Then at 2615
,
the judge says:
"
I
have three dates
on
Dr Gunson's evidence
:
November 1989
,
in principle; July 1990,
go
ahead
subject to the pilot trial; N... |
45,827 | 330 | QUESTION:
Who phoned whom?
"
ANSWER:
I think I phoned her.
"
|
45,828 | 330 | QUESTION:
And
the
gist
of
your
discussion was?
"
ANSWER:
It
looks as
though
we
are
going
to have
a
problem completing these tests by
1st
July
,
perhaps
we ought to consider
a
later date
,
and I suggested
1st
September
,
to which she
agreed, and
sent
a
memo
to
Dr Metters, who was her chi... |
45,829 | 330 | QUESTION:
Let us assume that that body had
arranged
to meet immediately after this very important
conference. Can we assume that, please?
"
ANSWER:
Yes.
"
|
45,830 | 330 | QUESTION:
Let us also assume that before
Rome
we in
this
country had done what the French had done and had
run some extensive pilots?
75
"
ANSWER:
Yes. May I
say,
France was really the only
country that reported at Rome
to
have
done that.
"
|
45,831 | 330 | QUESTION:
I understand that, but you were
striving,
as your statements of objectives make
s
plain
,
to
maintain the high
est
standards
and
ensure
the
maximum
safety. So I am imposing
upon
you your own standards
,
Dr Gunson. Let
us
assume
first that the
Committee had
met
immediately after this very... |
45,832 | 330 | QUESTION:
We have looked at why they
could
not.
It
is questions of funding
,
good
will
,
matters
of
that
kind
.
They have most
move
d earlier.
"
ANSWER:
Building
,
possibly
.
"
MR JUSTICE BURTON
:
What do you mean
'
if
',
because you are the
man
who would know
?
"
|
45,833 | 331 | QUESTION:
Sticking with England and Wales
,
if at any
rate that is the figure you have, about how many
donors does that represent?
"
ANSWER:
Something in the order or 1.5 to
1
.6 million.
" |
45,834 | 331 | QUESTION:
Just one other general question
:
what is
132
the broad turnover in the donor population? How many
donors do you lose
a
year?
"
ANSWER:
From retirement
, illness, donors moving
from one venue
to another
,
it
is something in the
order
of
12 to 15 per cent per year.
"
|
45,835 | 331 | QUESTION:
People just
getting busier
and
--
"
ANSWER:
And
stopping
, yes."
Then if we
go
,
please
,
to NHBT0000146,
it
is at
page 95, this is Dr Gunson giving evidence on
24 October 2000
,
and if we
go
to the bottom of that
page
,
he is still being examined
-
in
-
chief
,
at this
stage
,
by his cou... |
45,836 | 331 | QUESTION:
What you say in paragraph 20 is that the
blood
sup
ply within the service was
a
constant source
of concern and during the period with which we are
[
go
over the page
]
concerned here
,
you spent several hours
most days
ensuring that blood supply met demand
throughout the country.
"
Is that an exagg... |
45,837 | 331 | QUESTION:
Were you successful during that period?
"
ANSWER:
During that period we were extremely
successful. There was not
,
I do not think
,
one
critical
report in the
press
during the whole of the
periods until 1993."
Sir
, then can we turn now to DHSC0002195_044
.
This is
a
document
--
I think this i... |
45,838 | 332 | QUESTION:
Dr Lloyd, can you see and hear me?
ANSWER:
I can. There is a slight delay in your voice but,
yes, I can hear you clearly, thank you.
3 |
45,839 | 332 | QUESTION:
I'm going to start by just getting an overview of y our
medical career. You took up your first house offic er
post in 1975; is that right?
ANSWER:
That's correct, yes.
|
45,840 | 332 | QUESTION:
Then, between 1975 and 1979, you had various house
officer and senior house officer posts with no
particular emphasis on haematology or transfusion?
ANSWER:
That's correct.
|
45,841 | 332 | QUESTION:
Then, in 1980, you had your first placement at the
Northern Regional Transfusion Service from 1980 to
1981, as a locum registrar; is that right?
ANSWER:
That is correct, yes.
|
45,842 | 332 | QUESTION:
What led you to that post?
ANSWER:
I was following what would be considered a traditio nal
medical career, working my way up the ladder, I gue ss,
and at that time working in neurology at Newcastle
General Hospital, I felt that a career in what one
might call the traditional medical format was not f or ... |
45,843 | 332 | QUESTION:
In the course of the year or so that you were there ,
74 at that stage, you spent, I understand, some time i n
each department of the Centre and you've explained you
would review donor information and also you became
involved in blood banking and component production and
the introduction of automated b... |
45,844 | 332 | QUESTION:
Then from 1981 to 1983, you were a registrar in blo od
transfusion and haematology and, as I understand it ,
that involved receiving training and experience in
haematology, pathology and microbiology at the Free man
Road Hospital; is that right?
ANSWER:
Yes, and some clinical biochemistry. So it was al... |
45,845 | 332 | QUESTION:
You also, during that period, had a secondment to P HL;
is that correct?
ANSWER:
Yes, I went to the Public Health Laboratory Service ,
which had laboratories actually based in the same
building as the Transfusion Service in Newcastle, a nd
75 that was mainly to look at virology.
|
45,846 | 332 | QUESTION:
You also, during this period, had a further period of
time at the Regional Transfusion Centre; is that
correct?
ANSWER:
Yes, that's right. It was officially a rotation, s o
I came back into the transfusion centre.
|
45,847 | 332 | QUESTION:
Can you remember of that period '81 to '83, can you
remember approximately when you were back in the
transfusion centre, which year it was?
ANSWER:
It was likely at the end of that rotation, so proba bly
1983. I think I would have started off the rotatio n
by going to the Freeman hospital, and then com... |
45,848 | 332 | QUESTION:
You tell us in your statement that your time at the
haematology department at the Freeman Road Hospital
provided insight into hospital blood banking, use o f
blood products and clinical issues arising from
transfusion. What kind of issues arising from
transfusion do you recall encountering during that
p... |
45,849 | 332 | QUESTION:
We'll come back to that at a later stage of your
evidence, that issue.
ANSWER:
I'm sure.
|
45,850 | 332 | QUESTION:
1983 to 1987 you were then a senior registrar in
transfusion and haematology, spending time in each of
the three main teaching hospitals in Newcastle. So
would that be Freeman Road, Newcastle General and t he
Royal Victoria Infirmary?
ANSWER:
That's correct.
|
45,851 | 332 | QUESTION:
You had a period at the Haemophilia Centre, the
Newcastle Haemophilia Centre, at this time. Can yo u
7 remember which year that was?
ANSWER:
No, I can't now. It would have been at my -- towar ds
the -- in the latter half of that period, b... |
45,852 | 332 | QUESTION:
How long, very roughly, were you at the Haemophilia
Centre?
ANSWER:
Very roughly -- very hard to remember now -- probab ly
four weeks. I doubt whether it would have been
longer. There were so many other things to fit int o
that period of time.
|
45,853 | 332 | QUESTION:
And you had then also during this period of your wo rk,
a further period at the Regional Transfusion Centre ?
ANSWER:
Sorry, you froze then but I think you were asking i f
I had a further period at the transfusion centre?
|
45,854 | 332 | QUESTION:
Yes.
ANSWER:
And that's correct, yes.
|
45,855 | 332 | QUESTION:
And you did the second part of your MRCPath exam
having done the first part earlier in the 1980s.
ANSWER:
Yes, yes.
|
45,856 | 332 | QUESTION:
Then in 1987 you took up a post as a locum consulta nt
78 haematologist at the transfusion centre, and then
June 1987 to October 1988 you were a consultant
haematologist at the transfusion centre.
ANSWER:
Yes, that's right.
|
45,857 | 332 | QUESTION:
What, in broad terms, did that role as a consultant
haematologist entail?
ANSWER:
I had obviously -- sorry, I shouldn't say obviously .
I had quite a number of -- I spent quite a lot of t ime
with interactions with the individual haematologist s,
particularly when products were requested. It was not
u... |
45,858 | 332 | QUESTION:
And then November 1988 you became the director of t he
Northern Regional Transfusion Service. I think you r
title at that point --
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
45,859 | 332 | QUESTION:
-- was medical director and then later became chief
executive?
ANSWER:
I think I was medical director and general manager.
Excuse me. Sorry, this is a problem I have.
I was director and general manager from the
beginning. It was some years later that we
...[frozen screen]...
|
45,860 | 332 | QUESTION:
Sorry, you froze then, Dr Lloyd, and we lost the
last --
ANSWER:
Sorry.
|
45,861 | 332 | QUESTION:
No, no, not your fault at all. We lost the last bi t
of your answer.
ANSWER:
Yes, I was medical director and general manager fro m
the beginning, and then it was several years later
that we reorganised a bit and I became just the chi ef
executive. We also of course at that time, around
that time, we... |
45,862 | 332 | QUESTION:
And when you took up the role as director in
November 1988, your predecessor Dr Collins moved to
the clinical haematologist role; is that right?
ANSWER:
That's correct, yes.
|
45,863 | 332 | QUESTION:
I want to ask you next a little about the Centre, i ts
facilities and its arrangements. I've just mention ed
Dr Collins, that was Dr Anne Collins, and prior to
her --
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
45,864 | 332 | QUESTION:
-- appointment, it was Dr Sheila Murray. Who was
director; is that right?
ANSWER:
That's right. I met her on one occasion in 1980 ju st
as the transfer from herself to Dr Anne Collins too k
place.
|
45,865 | 332 | QUESTION:
In broad terms, what was the geographical reach of the
Northern Regional Transfusion Service?
ANSWER:
It had a very wide geographical area to cover, one of
the largest in England and Wales, with some large
areas of low-density population and a few very high ly
dense pockets of population. So it covered... |
45,866 | 332 | QUESTION:
Now the centre which you first worked at in 1980 wa s
based in the Institute of Pathology in Newcastle
General Hospital, and I think had been since the
1950s.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
45,867 | 332 | QUESTION:
Can you describe to us the facilities there and how
adequate or otherwise they were for their purpose.
ANSWER:
Yes, that building I believe was opened in 1956. O ne
floor was dedicated to the transfusion service and
that would have been at a time when there was very
little in the way of processing blood... |
45,868 | 332 | QUESTION:
Again, I'm afraid we lost a few seconds then,
83 Dr Lloyd. You said it was, and then we missed
a little and then you said, "the 1980s".
ANSWER:
Okay. I think it was -- yes, I said something like :
it was pretty outdated, even by the standards of th e
1980s.
|
45,869 | 332 | QUESTION:
An adjective a use in your statement to describe it ,
in fact, is "Dickensian"?
ANSWER:
Yes, sorry about that. Yes, it was in some ways. The
thing that sort of struck me was that we would see
blood grouping being performed and the results were
transcribed by clerks sitting on high stools at woo den
ben... |
45,870 | 332 | QUESTION:
I'm going to ask you to look at a document with me,
Dr Lloyd, just so that I can pick up one point from
it.
Sully, can we have NHBT0101335_052.
ANSWER:
Sorry, can you say that number again?
|
45,871 | 332 | QUESTION:
NHBT0101335_052, it should come up on your screen.
ANSWER:
I was trying to pull it up, but a little too fast f or
me there.
|
45,872 | 332 | QUESTION:
Have you got it, Sully?
84 ANSWER:
No, say it again? 0101?
|
45,873 | 332 | QUESTION:
Sorry, we're just having to reload it on to
our system here, Dr Lloyd. NHBT0101335_052.
ANSWER:
052. Is that going to come up for me?
|
45,874 | 332 | QUESTION:
It should come up on the screen in front of you,
Dr Lloyd. Can you see it now? It should be displa yed
on the screen on which you're talking to me?
ANSWER:
Yes, it has. Okay. Right, I --
|
45,875 | 332 | QUESTION:
It should now be in front of you. So it's a letter --
ANSWER:
Yes --
|
45,876 | 332 | QUESTION:
I'll read it. My screen is not working,
although if everyone else's is, that's fine. I've got
a hard copy.
The paragraph towards the bottom of the page
beginning:
"Finally, the concept introduced" --
ANSWER:
Yes, I have it.
|
45,877 | 332 | QUESTION:
"-- that the Centre was designed and commissioned f or
200,000 donations per annum shows a lack of
understanding of current blood transfusion practice ."
This was the sentence I wanted to ask you about:
"The original submissions for this building of a
new Transfusion Centre was made in the 1960s, at wh ... |
45,878 | 332 | QUESTION:
-- the service moved in 1985 to a new purpose-built
centre but do we understand from this that it was
a purpose-built centre based upon designs and think ing
86 from decades previously?
ANSWER:
No, that's not quite the case. I think in this
document and this paragraph, what I'm saying is the
Regional ... |
45,879 | 332 | QUESTION:
We can take that down, thank you.
Do you have any knowledge of why, it apparently
having been identified in the 1960s, that there was
a need for a purpose-built proper centre, why it to ok
until the mid-1980s for that to be realised?
ANSWER:
No, I have no idea. The only thing that comes to m ind
is one... |
45,880 | 332 | QUESTION:
If I can ask you next to look at -- and again it
should, I hope, come up on the screen in front of
you -- TYWE0000052_005.
ANSWER:
I'll get that up for you. No, sorry it's not comin g
up on mine --
88 |
45,881 | 332 | QUESTION:
Don't worry, it should, I hope, come up on ours
shortly.
ANSWER:
-- and it hasn't come up on the screen yet.
|
45,882 | 332 | QUESTION:
Our document system is struggling today. TYWE --
ANSWER:
Yeah, I did -- yeah.
|
45,883 | 332 | QUESTION:
Dr Collins's letters.
ANSWER:
-- one of these poorly legible.
|
45,884 | 332 | QUESTION:
Yes, it is. I'll read out the relevant passages. So
it's from Dr Collins, it's dated 3 October 1986.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
45,885 | 332 | QUESTION:
So, by this time, the service has moved into the ne w
centre. It's addressed to Dr Donaldson --
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
45,886 | 332 | QUESTION:
-- the Regional Medical Officer at the Northern
Regional Health Authority, and I'm just going to re ad
out the first four paragraphs.
"Dear Liam
"Your letter of 24th June requested
a comprehensive survey of modern Blood Transfusion
medicine, as well as complex information not readil y
available from o... |
45,887 | 332 | QUESTION:
Then if we look at a report which may, I think, hav e
been the report produced that's referred to in this
letter. It's NHBT0101 --
ANSWER:
I can tell you, NHBT -- (overspeaking) --
|
45,888 | 332 | QUESTION:
-- 332_045.
ANSWER:
332 -- that is the one, you're correct.
|
45,889 | 332 | QUESTION:
Good. So hopefully it will come up on the screen
again in the not too distant future.
Yes, NHBT0101332_045. Thank you.
So we can see there a page which has various
sections set out. If we go over the page, we can s ee
section 1 is "Major products and services provided by
the Northern Regional Transf... |
45,890 | 332 | QUESTION:
Then if we go to the next page, I wanted to ask you
about this next section. So headed "Whole Blood":
"This region has a relatively high demand for
whole blood. There are many periods during the yea r
when whole blood is not available in the quantities
requested, despite some whole blood being returned ... |
45,891 | 332 | QUESTION:
Just picking up --
ANSWER:
I hope that answers your question.
|
45,892 | 332 | QUESTION:
Absolutely. Just picking up your reference to the
document from Anne Collins, CBLA0001800, please,
Sully.
This is a report by Dr Gunson. If we go to the
second page -- if we just go a little closer, pleas e,
Sully, into the table.
ANSWER:
I know the document.
|
45,893 | 332 | QUESTION:
So we've got the reference there: Northern Regional
Transfusion Centre:
"1984-5
"- Does not expect to separate more plasma than
1983/4. Cannot obtain finance for SAG(M)."
And then "1985":
95 "Has been unable to initiate discussions on
plasma supply with RHANSWER:
Could not in any case
increase sup... |
45,894 | 332 | QUESTION:
So that would suggest --
ANSWER:
I'd say that -- if I might say, there is another
document where Dr Collins specifically mentions
the problem of erratic supply of optimal additive, or
SAG-M, so there is another document, and I'm sorry
I can't remember it, but I have seen it. So yes,
there's more than ... |
45,895 | 332 | QUESTION:
And then if we pull up CBLA0002392.
ANSWER:
Oh, yes.
|
45,896 | 332 | QUESTION:
And if we could go to page 165, please, Sully.
This is a document you drew attention to in
a recent addendum to your statement, Dr Lloyd.
So we've got table 11:
"Number of units of red cell products made
in 1985/86."
Then if we look at the regions on the left-hand
side, as I understand it region B is t... |
45,897 | 332 | QUESTION:
Well, that's useful to know, thank you, Dr Lloyd.
And we can see there highlighted for us on the
screen the relevant figures, which show, if we look at
the figure under the heading "SAG(M)" a very --
ANSWER:
Compared to most of the other centres.
|
45,898 | 332 | QUESTION:
Exactly, a very modest use compared to the other
centres.
ANSWER:
You know, it's not only a modest use, it is --
emphasises the fact that you couldn't provide this
product on a regular basis. If you only make 2,000 in
a year, you can't offer it as an alternative to
whole blood.
|
45,899 | 332 | QUESTION:
And if we go two pages further on, please, Sully, t o
page 167.
This is the second table you referred into your
addendum statement, Dr Lloyd. Table 13. I think t his
is -- region B is still the Northern Region in this
table, and we can see there the percentage --
ANSWER:
Yes, a little group.
|
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