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PS what’s with this–AG seems down on state workers yet says he’s taken state tests and has been on lists for state employment. |
2. adirondackguy says: |
@Liz: What are you talking about? I *AM* a state worker, and I defend state employees on this blog all the TIME. I’m not “down on state workers”. Where did THAT come from? |
If you’re saying that my disappointment in the way hiring is done means I’m an evil anti-state-worker, you really need to re-evaluate that view. Read a few more of my posts and see for yourself. |
The hiring process NY uses STINKS, it’s slow and inefficient and discourages people from joining; I think everyone here will admit that. It takes MONTHS to hire a new employee; how is that even remotely a good idea? Designing a better system would be trivial, but it’s nearly impossible to effect any sort of change. |
Don’t get me wrong — I absolutely support civil service, and I don’t want to eliminate the examination system. But there’s got to be an easier way to do things. For example, why aren’t tests automatically graded by computer and the scores updated within a week and placed online for us to view in our accounts? Why a... |
In the six months it takes to get on a list after taking a test, I could design a better system from the ground up, implement it, and have it ready to go for the next round of testing! Give me a couple of additional team members and I’d do it in THREE months. |
Sometimes I wonder if some previous administration didn’t set things up this way on PURPOSE to discourage people from getting promoted, and to make it easier for agencies to justify contracting out. |
3. adirondackguy says: |
@Rich: Maverick already did a pretty good job of tearing apart that post of yours, but I’ll give it a go too, since you were pointing it at me: |
FORMAT: I’ll quote you then reply, one point at a time. |
“1. If you can’t do, you work for the State;” |
Actually the saying goes “Those who can’t do, teach. Those who can’t teach, teach gym.” It’s from Woody Allen, and it has nothing to do with us. |
A more accurate saying for the state (for us technology guys, at least) would be: “You work in the private sector in your twenties to cut your teeth on high tech, but when you turn thirty you join the state for the job security and family-friendly hours”. It’s the same guy who used to work for a tech firm, he’s jus... |
“2. The vast majority of State workers would be unable to either start their own business or meld easily into private sector, largely because the State platforms in all sectors lag;” |
I don’t think you’re involved with technology, because if you were you’d know this is patently false. The state government often has state of the art systems in place. Even though they don’t let me buy anything (Grr…) we still have a very modern, Java-based Oracle stack. It wouldn’t be out of place at any private c... |
Basically you’re talking out your posterior on this one. No credibility. |
“3. The State holds an unfair monopoly:” |
Thanks for the laugh! A “monopoly” is a situation in which a COMPANY controls a specific market, excluding competitors. The state government is NOT a company, does NOT participate in a market, and does NOT sell its services. If you’re going to make things up, at least say something interestingly weird. |
And before you get started with the idea that your taxes are a purchase of services, private-sector style, DON’T GO THERE. Your taxes are a mandatory contribution towards your SOCIETY. It’s not a purchase, it’s a sacrifice for the greater good. |
“a. The State Unions (Teachers) have repeatedly fough charter schools, even though charter schools out perform public schools;” |
For a good reason: most people consider education to be a public good, and the concept of charter schools hijacks tax money to benefit the rich at the expense of the poor and working class. This is about social justice, not unions. I’ve messed with people in the past by telling them they should pay tuition for thei... |
“b. Public education is not efficient, yet attempts to rehab it have been fought repeatedly;” |
Attempts to rehab it like letting the rich get out of contributing towards public schools and put their little snowflakes into private (pardon me, “charter”) schools? Look, you know what this is REALLY ABOUT? This is George Bush’s fault for his “No Child Left Behind” program which caused all schools to “teach to th... |
“c. Voucher systems allowing citizens to send their kids to private schools have been fought repeatedly by the State Unions, to avoid competition.” |
Once again, this is about social justice. You can’t de-fund the public school system and put all the rich kids in classy schools, leaving the poor out of it. It’s wrong, and if you had a heart instead of a chunk of flint you’d understand that. |
“d. In NY, private shuttle services run commuter vans better, faster and cheaper than public service unions, and are being fought by unins tooth and nail.” |
Good heavens. I think you’ve gone right off the rails on this one. Are we talking New York State now? Because there are no private shuttle services as far as I can tell. The bus system seems to be working fairly well. Trains are on time… What are you on about? Airport shuttles? Hotel shuttles? |
“At the end of the day it comes down to this: Most people have been dummed down so much, someone might actually believe your propaganda.” |
Uh oh, better look out! Adirondackguy is gonna pervert the minds of the “dummed” down public with his evil logic and sinister collection of facts! Quick, someone call Fox News, the devil man must be STOPPED! |
“But in reality–as John Stossel challenges–name ONE function government does better than private business.” |
Who? Am I supposed to recognize this Streudel character? What is he, some conservative pundit from Fox? Ok, hang on, I’ll look him up… (checks Wikipedia). YEP, I nailed it as usual. He’s a Fox News reporter and avowed libertarian. You know what I find funny about libertarians? They’re the party of “ME ME ME”. They ... |
“We go to the State when we have given up on all chances of true, meaningful success in our personal lives.” |
Oh, my, that’s just nutty. I’m quite successful working for the state. I make a good salary, my work is both socially significant and widely used, I’m fairly highly placed in my agency… Wherever do you get these amusing ideas of yours? |
Heh… I’d rather be what I am than some used car salesman or shop owner! My job is a LOT more dignified! |
4. HRH says: |
If it were not for public servants, the streets would be FULL of dangerous people…and not maintained. You are welcome :) |
5. Rich says: |
1. You’re SOCIALIST. Your goal is to CONTROL the minions. And the minions have been so dumbed down, they don’t know it. Your goal is to control others, their families, their education. |
But the joke is, you have largely INCOMPETENTS like the State Board of Ed, dictating to teachers, students, administrators, what to learn and how to learn it. |
All the while, we’re sliding in world ed rankings ever more. |
Reason….LOOK WHO’S MANDATING-incompetents! |
2. Property Tax Cap–the UNIONS are the only ones fighting the property tax cap now. Reason?????????? Right now, the ONLY group challenging a property tax cap in NY are the public service unions. |
3. I am absolutely APPALLED that the employees in this State are as socialist as you. It is disgusting. MOVE TO RUSSIA or Cuba or North Korea. |
YOU should be ASHAMED of yourselves. |
6. Frequent Visitor John says: |
I don’t believe androndackguy was dowing state workers. He is one. |
The poster quite correctly pointed out that people go out and take exams for state positions and then have to qualify for |
That stae job through interview, canvass letters, and hoop jumping. This ag is absolutely correct in what was written. |
Did you know that even folks that take the exam and pass “never get to work for the state”. |
Yet paid a fee in most cases to compete for that job opportunity. And many public sector folks take state exams. Ask yourself why? Its for the benefits and retirement, the health insurance and to make a better life for themselves and family. |
So bash state employees all you want. Many of you doing the bashing wish they could qualify to even join the state workforce. |
Keep up the accurate postings Androndackguy! |
7. sick of albany says: |
@ Adirondackguy |
I am a State Employee. a Grade 6 with a Master’s degree working towards my PhD. I have been on many lists for higher grades, that would utilize my education, but cannot get hired. So, I understand that it’s difficult, I’ve been waiting for years for something better. In the meantime I have been making 26k a year an... |
However, I look around my office, and I see tons of people who get paid more than me who have to ask people like me how to scan something on the copier, how to do this and that, who DONT do any work, but their sister works for HR, etc. This is BS and it’s corrupt, and the system does not work how it should. |
All I am saying is it needs to be re-vamped. Or done away with. Or, once someone passes that year mark, it shouldnt be impossible to fire them if they don’t perform. |
I am a hardworker. I have a great work ethic. I dont necessarily like my job at all, but I show up everyday and do it, and I do the job that 3 hire-grades have given me to do for them. I don’t complain until I get home. Etc. The same problem a lot of the “little guys” like me have, I’m sure. And it’s not fair. The ... |
If I could find a job in the private sector that wasnt equally demeaning as the one I have, I would. But, for now, I’ll tough it out. |
8. Robert says: |
@sick of albany |
I am humbled by the fact that you have so much education yet such a low-paying job. I have a friend who has two bachelors degrees and is also a Grade 6. Your situation is uncommon but not unheard of. |
Have you looked into taking the Professional Careers Test? With that, anyone with at least a college degree could land a Grade 14 or Grade 18 position. I got a lot of canvass letters from that exam. I will take that test any time it is offered, even though I am already a Grade 18. |
I would be curious to know what your Masters is in. If it is in something like music or archaeology, of course there are few state positions for that degree. My masters is in statistics and fortunately it qualifies me for numerous positions, such as Transportation Analyst and Program Research Specialist 2. Thank go... |
I wish you the best of luck and hope things turn around for you. If you would like to chat about this further, my email is Thank you. |
9. Chili Palmer says: |
Big Labor boost free-spending Democrats ( and free spenders like Uncle Joe Bruno). But the real Big Lie is that Democrats oppose those greedy Wal Street types. Just the opposite , my friend. What happens is Democrats give their Big Labor buddies what they want, give us lip service about Wall Street then give the fi... |
10. Jim says: |
@sick of albany. Unfortunately education in the civil service system means nothing. Most civil service jobs say you need to have so many years as a grade 7 or above. The only exception was the now defunct PMI program that leads to a grade 18. |
What happens is that others think you are over qualified for that promotion or you will leave soon for another promotion, thus you do not get the job. Having a good work ethic can hurt you, since they cannot afford to lose you in the current position. |
Take it from someone who started as a grade 3, get out while you can. It does not get any better with time or with more education. The door remains shut unless you are connected. |
11. adirondackguy says: |
@Sick of Albany: I was replying to your suggestion that all you have to do is pass a test to get a job, which isn’t really true (my post is pretty accurate for jobs in information technology, by the way — getting through an interview is like running a gauntlet sometimes). I didn’t realize you had been through the p... |
I agree with you that there are too many appointees infesting state agencies. While I don’t want to see anyone get fired or lose their jobs, I *WOULD* like to see the hiring of appointees banned outright — let all existing employees test in to civil service if they want to stay. Every civil service job should be a ... |
You should re-evaluate your desire to see people get fired for non-performance, by the way. The reason this is never done is that performance is a subjective thing. One manager might think you’re a hotshot high-performer, another might think you’re an idiot, ask a third and they might think you’re only average. Who... |
12. adirondackguy says: |
@Sick of Albany: By the way, I’ll tell you something that might help you. Let’s say you can’t get promoted at your current agency. Maybe they think you’re too important to let go, maybe they’ve got it in for you, whatever. They’re not going to promote you, and you know it. |
Maybe you’ve even gotten “the speech”. The speech is given out by Organization Men, people who place all their loyalty with the organization and think sucking up to their bosses is a holy duty. These are the guys who see you leaving at 5:30 and say “Half day, Bob?” with a sarcastic grin on their faces. Maybe you’ve... |
The speech goes like this: “It’s your own fault, you know… Always making waves, ticking off the boss. You want to get promoted, just lay low for a while! Play the game, be a good employee, kiss butt where necessary. Then, one day, the boss will forgive you and you’ll get that promotion.” |
I got that speech VERBATIM at my old agency, where my support of the union had gotten me blacklisted from promotion opportunities. This wiry old guy gave it to me as if he was helping me. Here’s what I told him: |
“Well, I suppose I COULD do that, if I didn’t have all this excess human dignity. But you know, I think I’ll probably just take a transfer position at a different agency and live happily ever after. I’m not sticking around HERE very long…” |
He laughed at me, and said “well, if you think so!” A month or two later I was at a different agency, and I had my promotion. |
I see him occasionally on Pearl Street. He always asks how I’m doing at my new agency, with a chuckle or laugh in his voice, as though I made some terrible mistake by accepting promotion. I think he really believes it. |
Do what I did. Get your promotion through transfer. Don’t use your current bosses as references, or they’ll block it by lying about you, saying you’re not a hard worker, etc. Don’t even tell them where you’re going, just give your two weeks’ notice and when you go to H.R. to fill out forms, ask them not to tell any... |
13. Jim says: |
@adirondackguy. A transfer may be the only way out of that Agency and into a promotion, if leaving state service is not an option. You may want to remove some of the degrees from your resume if going for a grade 6 or grade 9 position. The people interviewing you may be jealous. Agreed do not tell the boss or give t... |
14. sick of albany says: |
@ Jim – I have been trying to get out, but as most people know it’s difficult at the moment, unfortunately. What I thought would be a good opportunity for me (working for the State) has been anything but. It’s really sad, to be honest. |
@ adirondackguy – I guess by “work performance” I simply mean those people who, from the time they sit down at 8am, talk on the phone until they leave at the end of the day. Mainly, not working at all. However, I see all of your points, and I appreciate them. I am beginning to think that Civil Service just isn’t fo... |
15. thinlizzy says: |
one little correction for adirondackguy….your post earlier talking about the hiring process, is a little askew. they already know who they want to promote. but they HAVE to interview you if your above their golden child on the list. it’s about favoritism, not how smart you are or how good of job your capable of. th... |
16. Jim says: |
@sick of albany. For the most part, the New York’s Civil Service System is based on testing of abstract concepts often unrelated to the job. They test for the obsolete and exception and focus on grammar. |
Over the years, I have found that there is an inverse relationship between educational attainment and performance on a civil service test, where the greater the amount of education the lower the score on most of them (except the programming ones). I think that is because one becomes more analytical and does not see... |
I say get out now if you can and start a career where your education and experience will be valued. Do not waste your career waiting for something that may never happen. |
17. Jim says: |
@sick of albany. Education is valued very lowly in some agencies, even some that one would think would be in opposition to their agencies overall goals and objectives. Several years ago, I was on an interview team and we interviewed a highly qualified candidate, but that person did not get the job my bosses boss sa... |
18. adirondackguy says: |
@Thinlizzy: I’m lucky enough to be in technology; when an agency is hiring for a tech job, usually they DON’T have someone specific in mind. They’re bringing in someone new to fill a position. |
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