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> but think for a moment how are you going to implement this sort of counter?
> Your options are to increase the number of bits used, which puts off the overflow, or you could work with infinite precision arithmetic, which would slowly use up the available memory and finally bring the system down.
I think the author doesn't quiet get just how much additional time adding a few extra bits would get you. If 32 bits gets you 248 days then a 64 bit counter gets you just under 3 billion years. 1 bit more and the sun would be gone before the plane ever needs to be restarted.
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And what if that part was spec'd to use 90% of it's capacity with the 32 bit program written for it? What if that check put it over capacity and now you need to design for a whole new part? What if the components that interact with this chip can't interact with our upgrade without major changes?
Work in industry for a few years and you will run into this problem *all the time*.
Problems are defined, and a part is procured that will solve that problem. Usually after a vigorous attempt to simply the problem and save cost on that part. You can't just buy something that's twice as good as you need for every piece of your project, your costs would balloon like crazy, and your competition would laugh all the way to the bank!
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> Work in industry for a few years and you will run into this problem all the time.
You're a cantankerous one, aren't you? I've been a programmer for 29 years; not really sure if that's a "few" or not. I'll agree that there are occasions where it works out like you describe, it's not the average case at all. If you're running that close to the edge as it is, you are running lots of other risks too.
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That edge might not be very risky, depends on what the device does.
You both make good points, problems like this happen all the time but solving them the straightforward way also happens all the time, and generally being so close to the edge that this sort of change might be a problem means there are other risks as well, however it's common for a lot of your work to be on the edge of some intersecting tradeoffs. It's just the nature of the beast that most of the work happens where both solutions require more work.
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If you wanna move content around depending on screen resolution, without tons of css hacks and duplicated content and even then you cannot really move content around, you can really only show, hide and position, but if you have to move an inner div into another div then it's impossible without javascript. It's not something common to do, but it has its usecases, but you can avoid this with a completely better design, soooooo I guess your question is still valid.
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> Have you ever heard of SASS and LESS?
Sure. You can learn a domain-specific templating language to make your domain-specific config language a bit less painful (they don't fix the box model but I'll grant that they remove some of the repetition). Or you can learn a general-purpose programming language and use that to replace all your domain-specific config languages (possibly using "internal" DSLs for DSL-shaped problems). I know which I prefer.
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A lot of it is a lack of good CSS knowledge, and hand wavy excuses. I see a tonne of examples of JS used for layouts where basic flex would have done it.
That said there are a couple of specific layouts which are downright painful to do in CSS. There are some specific tweaks which are just nicer if you have JS powering it. Another is if content has to be somewhere entirely different; like moving from a pane to a sidebar depending on screen size.
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Lots of developers do all kinds of stupid stuff. From smooth scrolling to dynamic loading of images, adaptive menus and other attention grabbing things.
All that said, I can't really say his sites are the easiest to read/use. There are a lot of things developer can do without making sacrifices. Take his blog for example:
- Black on white is usually too much contrast and hard on the eyes;
- Poor use of negative space for grouping content and making it easier to read;
- Tables should be used to present data which belongs in tables, for example things he expects us to compare to one another. Instead he used different colors and style in a single sentence making comparison hard;
- etc.
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> "Laziness" is meant to be about automating work in order to do less in the future. Not learning css doesn't fall into that, you're doing at least as much work in js as you are in css. Maybe even more, depending on how much wheel reinventing you're doing.
Disagree, because in a general-purpose programming language a lot of what you're doing can be general-purpose. E.g. if you learn how to give different rows of a table alternating colours in CSS, that knowledge will only ever be useful in CSS, whereas if you learn how to apply different functions to alternating elements of a collection in JS, that's a reusable technique that you'll use again and again.
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CSS is spectacularly bad: cognitive isssues, lack of typing and validation, far-distance effects, high redundany, silent corruption, inefficient both at runtime and design-time ...
The worst thing is the unexplainable idea that styling properties should go into it's own syntax and namespace. In the original concept of a markup language, this is what markup attributes are for - why it had to go into it's own ad-hoc syntax isn't clear. Actually, SGML had already stylesheets (rule-based assignment of attributes) over 30 years ago.
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That still sounds like you're just trying to use one hammer everywhere. Yes, in your example it works in both paradigms. But what about something simpler, like setting text size or spacing? You've learned to... set object properties?
I also don't understand your aversion to DSLs. Just because it doesn't map 1:1 to another problem doesn't mean you aren't learning. Plenty of other platforms use similar configuration files for setting constants, display information, styling, etc. It's a good way to separate business and display logic, especially when the current trend is towards declarative UI definitions. Using CSS is just another type of this. Trying to fit everything into general purpose programming is just ignoring this (imho) very important facet of software engineering. It also ignores one crucial skill for any engineer: knowing how to pick the right tool for the problem.
But in the end, I'm just a faceless moron on the internet that honestly was more concerned with how you interpreted a quote than how you solve your own issues. You do you.
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> But what about something simpler, like setting text size or spacing? You've learned to... set object properties?
Well, that's a vital if basic skill. A programming language should make the easy things easy and the hard things possible; CSS might succeed on the first but a language that does both stands you in better stead.
> Plenty of other platforms use similar configuration files for setting constants, display information, styling, etc.
Agreed, and again I've found they do more harm than good. DI container wiring, test case definitions, web routing, business rules, translations: you're better off just using a programming language.
> It's a good way to separate business and display logic, especially when the current trend is towards declarative UI definitions. Using CSS is just another type of this.
Config files can make sense for something that's purely an inert value, but as soon as you have any kind of logic or transformations you can't do them declaratively and it's a mistake to try. Declarative UI definitions are a great idea, but any halfway decent programming language makes it easy to express plain values in ordinary code.
> It also ignores one crucial skill for any engineer: knowing how to pick the right tool for the problem.
Programming culture is too focused on choosing between A and B, and doesn't pay enough attention to whether A should even be in your toolbox at all. Given limited time available, deep knowledge of general-purpose tools is more valuable than knowing a big range of special-purpose tools.
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Most are, I don't see why you need a half dozen crappy javascript libraries to render some text and a few images.
I'd fully support a lightweight no clientside scripting code version of websites. Just static HTML, images etc. I don't want or need dynamic ajax postbacks happening every few ticks so some bloated website can track my exact cursor position and spray data at 100 odd random tracking and advertising domains.
Just opening the reddit homepage (old.reddit) i got 140 requests, thats exactly 139 too many for what is actually required.
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According to your posts, you're most likely a DBA or a backend dev. Have you ever worked on the front end of a large scale (say, 1m loc or so) web application? The solutions you're discussing are paramount to allowing for good architecture in the world of large web apps.
And actually, think about the backend! If reddit made one request to the backend to create the front page, that means the endpoint serving that would have to be extremely specific to your specific use case (I'd guess logged in, desktop, chrome, subscribed to less than 250 subreddits). Will there be a different endpoint if you're not logged in? What about if you're on a tablet and need different information than a desktop (or at the very least, the tablet engineers want less information, for example).
You have to make abstractions that make sense.
Also are you using the old layout and RES? If so, you're the one making more than half of those requests, not reddit.
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> According to your posts, you're most likely a DBA
Correct and no I avoid the web layer as it changes too frequently but have worked with plenty of apps exceeding a couple of million LOCs. I am not using RES.
The vast majority of web apps do not need constant call backs, sure if there is a live chat client then yes but reddit does not have that.
It's just a waste of resources and very few developers actually understand the libraries they use so its very insecure. Who knows what time bombs and backdoors exist in such packages.
>The solutions you're discussing are paramount to allowing for good architecture in the world of large web apps.
Good architecture comes with minimalist design in terms of code. Everybody knows the the more lines of code you have generally increases the number of issues. Saying that using someones multi MB javascript file you downloaded from some website is good architecture is dumb.
>And actually, think about the backend! If reddit made one request to the backend to create the front page, that means the endpoint serving that would have to be extremely specific to your specific use case (I'd guess logged in, desktop, chrome, subscribed to less than 250 subreddits). Will there be a different endpoint if you're not logged in? What about if you're on a tablet and need different information than a desktop (or at the very least, the tablet engineers want less information, for example).
All the post titles etc come from one HTTP request which renders that entire paragraph irrelevant.
>that means the endpoint serving that would have to be extremely specific to your specific use case
Yeah... you can do crazy thinks with code - like detecting the user, or the device etc and customising the response based on that, you do not need multiple entry points to do this.
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CSS, JS, and images can all be inlined into HTML. IMO, it's probably better not to inline them because it prevents the the browser from caching that content separately from the rest of the page. But I think it is fair to ask that most websites serve just _one_ CSS file and _one_ JS file per page - it's trivial to run a script that bundles all your assets into one file. Maybe even one image per page (by collapsing images into a spritesheet).
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Yes, no jquery means support for a shit ton of browsers/versions have been dropped. Stuff like jquery meant multi browser support more than anything else.
Even then, moderns browsers are just as much dog shit as any old internet explorer version. The amount of unsupported stuff is just enormous. I wrote a simple website with editable data table, tested it on chrome, and guess what, it doesnt work on any other browser...
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That works fine and well in personal projects, or even projects with a more high-level timeline/budget consideration, but for day-to-day site modifications it's a hard sell.
If they want a datepicker and you say you can roll one up in 2-3 hours, but random Joe pops in and mentions he can have it in 5 minutes and "only" weigh the website down by 50k of jQuery, you know which one they'll pick.
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Browser compatibility is the best it's ever been, and almost nothing jQuery does in terms of browser compatibility is necessary to retain your sanity post IE 10 (which you really shouldn't bother supporting anymore except for *extremely* specifically targeted userbases). If you're having major problems with compatibility, you're either supporting dead browsers or using cutting-edge features that aren't ready for prime time yet anyways - 99% of compatibility issues on the web are minor unimportant implementation differences or revolve around CSS prefixes.
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Tbh, this could well be a perfect use case for Svelte and other "framework-less frameworks" - basically, they use a compiler to turn framework-based code into single files that contain all the DOM manipulation code necessary (and only the DOM manipulation code necessary) to run the application in the browser.
I could see that being used to build a series of tiny components that have the development benefits of a larger framework, but the size benefits of raw DOM manipulation.
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> you are bound to hit some sort of funky edge case within the next 14 days that you hadn't considered
**Bug Report:**
Days, Months and Years that are prime numbers can't be entered
**Fix**:
Added an additional field so the user can just enter the next possible date and then use this field to subtract hours to get to the desired date.
**Note**:
Hours have to be entered in octal
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You can sideload extensions if you really want to.
Edge supports WebExtensions (mostly, but that's a different story). There's all sorts of hilarity involved in that spec, since Google wants you to use `chrome.` in all your extension stuff and the spec says to use `browser.` since that's, you know, *the standard*. Writing something to *the standard* will mean your extensions don't work right in Chrome. This means that it's fairly easy to pull in extensions from Chrome and get them limping along in Edge.
The store is actually kinda nice. I have a habit of feeding money to various free software projects that put their software up on it to legitimize it as a means of pushing money at those projects.
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Well that seemed... vitriolic. Let's take a look at what the author is actually complaining about, which was announced a little less than a year ago:
https://webmasters.googleblog.com/2017/11/engaging-users-through-high-quality-amp.html
So, as the author says, Google wants AMP pages to have feature-parity with regular pages. Specifically, from the spec:
> Users must be able to experience the same content and complete the same actions on AMP pages as on the corresponding canonical pages, where possible.
So that's the extent of the information from Google—they've changed the AMP spec to require feature parity. If a website doesn't adapt to the new spec, Google will return their regular site in the search results instead—much like if they took the author's suggestion and didn't use AMP. As confirmed in the above link
> AMP is not a ranking signal and there is no change in terms of the ranking policy with respect to AMP.
Now, the author is absolutely correct that you need AMP to show up in things like the Top Stories carousel, so that's not to say that AMP is meaningless but:
* For any site not using AMP already, this has no effect whatsoever
* For any site currently using AMP, I think it's hard to argue that an incomplete version of the site provides a better UX than a feature-complete version. Google wants AMP pages to be useful. There's a lot of complaining in this thread about how AMP pages are annoying, and frankly I tend to agree, but it stands to reason that a lack of feature parity is a contributor to that.
Then for the second half of the article it devolves from actual if editorialized information to garbage like
> Dance, Dance for Google
and
> “Don’t wear that dress,” Google is saying, “it makes you look cheap. Wear this instead, nice and prim and tidy.”
Ironically, this is right after talking about the possible benefits of using AMP, and without any explanation in between of why it's actually bad. That's not to say that there aren't reasons, but rather than discuss them, the author just rants about how Google can't tell him what to do.
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>“Don’t wear that dress,” Google is saying, “it makes you look cheap. Wear this instead, nice and prim and tidy.”
​
I didn't read everything, but I don't need to ! If the author says that Google is trying to choose the dress I use, I tell "GOOGLE, this guy right here is done wearing dresses .!. !!!!" !
​
Since the author doesn't seem to be from a major corporation, he is totally legit and has for sure my best interest at heart !
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I mean if you expected an objective "both sides" piece when the title is "Google AMP Can Go To Hell" I don't know what to tell you. Any reader should immediately understand that they're getting a opinion piece not pbs style objective reporting.
And for the record people *should* be hyper sensitive to this kind of thing. "Let's wait and see, we don't know if it's evil or not" doesn't really work in these scenarios since by the time you find out if it's evil or not it's too late to really do anything about it.
Amp definitely seems to be an erosion of the decentralized web and people *should* be up in arms about that. If it's not the burden is on google to prove that it's not. The mega corporation doesn't get the benefit of the doubt.
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> I mean if you expected an objective "both sides" piece when the title is "Google AMP Can Go To Hell" I don't know what to tell you. Any reader should immediately understand that they're getting a opinion piece not pbs style objective reporting.
I know what to expect if I see an 'article' on buzzfeed too, that doesn't make the article any less shit or any closer to actual worthwhile journalism. Even for an opinion piece, the author couldn't even be bothered to actually make their own case, instead mostly just harping on "how _dare_ google tell me what to do", while ironically making an actual case for AMP usage immediately prior. The title is also just misinformation, the author's speculation being presented as fact.
> Amp definitely seems to be an erosion of the decentralized web and people should be up in arms about that.
The announced change does nothing to push more people to AMP. It only affects companies already using it or planning to use it. AMP has no new effect on SEO compared to before. I can absolutely understand pushback against the privileges AMP already enjoys in the Top Stories carousel (and arguably the caching by google that people are complaining about in this thread—as others have said, this site would haven't had any issues with the 'hug of death' had it been an AMP site), but this 'new' development doesn't give AMP any more privileges than it does before, it just seeks to improve the spec. Of course, I don't expect the author to know that, considering they only found out about this yesterday from panicked clients rather than months ago when it was announced. In fact, I'm almost certain that they never bothered to read the actual announcement even after the fact, given their speculation that
> Google is going to keep pushing. I expect those messages to turn in to warnings, and eventually become full-fledged errors that invalidate the AMP standard.
which needn't be speculation because google already said exactly what they'll do in their announcement:
> Where we find that an AMP page doesn't contain the same critical content as its non-AMP equivalent, we will direct our users to the non-AMP page. This does not affect Search ranking. However, these pages will not be considered for Search features that require AMP, such as the Top Stories carousel with AMP. Additionally, we will notify the webmaster via Search console as a manual action message and give the publisher the opportunity to fix the issue before its AMP page can be served again.
I wouldn't be surprised if the article is an attempt to save face with their clients (or their boss) by shifting the blame for their clients being blindsided away from them not keeping up with industry news and towards google for making the change at all.
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>AMP has no new effect on SEO compared to before.
Sure, it doesn't *now* but there's absolutely *nothing* to stop google from doing it in the future. Have we not learned by now the foolishness of simply trusting a big tech giant not to do the wrong thing? How many times must we be facebook'd to learn?
Even in google's own house, once android became the king and not the challenger, how quickly they shifted to stifling competition. Moving key apps from open source to proprietary; preventing manufacturers from making devices that *don't* carry google apps.
Given the chance they'd use AMP in a similar fashion. That's not cynicism, that's just business.
> I wouldn't be surprised if the article is an attempt to save face with their clients (or their boss) by shifting the blame for their clients being blindsided away from them not keeping up with industry news and towards google for making the change at all.
I find it very interesting that many of the comments bashing the article in some way suggest the author is just a shit programmer blaming google for their shitness. Definitely interesting.
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The "why it's bad" is as follows:
- Google supposedly wants a more homogeneous web. Other than a lot of sarcasm talking about this as a bad thing, no discussion of what's bad about the web being a bit neater and more well-structured. There certainly _are_ arguments about why it can be a bad thing, but the author doesn't present them.
- Google is telling him what to do and he doesn't like that.
He might be being sarcastic for most of his praise, but sarcasm isn't an argument. Sarcasm is him pretending it's obvious why he's right rather than him putting any effort into actually showing it. After that point, it's just a full-on rant of "fuck you Google" and that certainly isn't an argument either.
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The point is, the announcement the article is purportedly about is pretty much irrelevant to any of his actual complaints, and he makes a very poor case for his actual complaints. I'm not going to argue that AMP is amazing, but the author sure didn't do anything to convince me I should hate it. I think I disliked AMP more before I read the article than after (and after I did some of my own research since the article did so little to actually inform me).
> I find it very interesting that many of the comments bashing the article in some way suggest the author is just a shit programmer blaming google for their shitness. Definitely interesting.
That's because the author wrote a shitty article that provided very little of substance to actually argue against, particularly when the article is at least nominally about an event that's largely irrelevant to what he's complaining about. He didn't give any technical argument about why AMP is bad, but just plucked at people's emotional response to big companies doing things and was _real sarcastic_ when he talked about AMP's selling points. Then he went on a big "fuck google" rant without an ounce of substance for the remainder of the article. Further, _because_ what the article is nominally about is so much removed from his actual complaints about AMP, his issues with the actual change in AMP as opposed to AMP as a concept come off as unsubstantiated and we're left to come up with our own reason for why he's complaining that AMP wants feature parity now. Considering it's obviously more work, laziness/incompetence is an easy answer to believe. The fact that the site went down is also not an irony lost on anyone.
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>The fact that the site went down is also not an irony lost on anyone.
See like, comments like that just come off as desperate. You're better off just leaving that out.
I've seen several companies that specialize in building websites half ass their own site. Those aren't billable hours and you hardly expect any traffic at all for a site like that.
Heck if the site didn't go down and I was a customer I'd honestly have to wonder how much extra I'd was being billed for *my own* site for scalability I never need.
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Excusable or not, it doesn't make the site going down due to an article decrying a technology that could have prevented it any less ironic. If I get shot talking about how bad bulletproof vests are, it doesn't matter if I had no reasonable expectation of getting shot, it's still ironic.
Truth be told I don't have a strong opinion on AMP. I was never trying to convince anyone that AMP was great because I have my own reservations and AMP isn't something I have to deal with enough personally to care to argue. But I do have a strong opinion on sensationalist clickbait that substitutes a bunch of nothing for any actual argument, so I thought I'd point out the article for what it is and try to temper the nonsense with some actual facts. But perhaps if you nitpick enough sentences put of people's comments about how shitty the article is, it'll suddenly change from an angry substanceless rant to a well-reasoned argument about the implications of Google's support for AMP.
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This is exactly what I was thinking while reading. And it's all very well saying it's an opinion piece, but other than 'amp is bad', he hasn't really presented any other opinions here.
The Web has definitely become a bloated mess; websites don't load significantly faster now than they used to before broadband, because they stuff their pages with gigantic, unoptimised images and tonnes and tonnes of useless javascript. It's insane how huge these websites really are, many of them surpassing in size great works of Russian literature!
Now that's not to say I agree with Amp. I don't think the answer to this is another js library. If Google really want to force websites to clean up their act, and I think this is a good idea, they should start de prioritising any website with more javascript than a novel. That would be a fucking great start.
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If you're looking for feature overviews or technical pro's and con's, you're doing it wrong.
This is about control.
Google decides what AMP means, so if we as a community let it grow too big, eventually Google won't be afraid of using AMP for ranking, better ad revenue, etc, effectively killing off those that don't bend the knee.
So don't let them, if you want a lightweight site, build a lightweight site on your own terms. Don't bend the knee for the megacorp while it still doesn't cost you much, trying to fight 5 years from now when do something awful might be too late and be a life or death decision for your company.
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> Excusable or not, it doesn't make the site going down due to an article decrying a technology that could have prevented it any less ironic. If I get shot talking about how bad bulletproof vests are, it doesn't matter if I had no reasonable expectation of getting shot, it's still ironic.
Right, but the irony doesn't make you wrong in that instance, so pointing it out in the context of talking about the validity of the argument is a dick move.
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I'ved worked in three countries in my life. My home country Germany, the US (Seattle area), and recently I've moved to Tokyo. The US beats Germany or Japan in salaries no question, even if you factor in the cost of living like the absurd rent by a huge margin.
But there's a few things the US couldn't compete on which is why I eventually moved on. The work culture is crazy (which might sound ironic given Japan's reputation, but it's not so bad in an English speaking software job). American companies push like crazy, it's competitive, very individualist. Often I felt people were put in charge for very wrong reasons. I've also never seen so much inequality in such a rich country. Well it wasn't for me.
Here in Tokyo rent is really cheap (they actually build housing here, crazy idea!). There's public transport going everywhere, everything is in walking distance. No car needed, at all. It's the cleanest city of its size I've ever seen. No matter what job people do they always do it with a lot of care. This might not be important to everyone, but you can't really replace it with a large salary.
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US salaries and particularly those in the main tech cities are still waaaaay ahead of general European salaries. Even as someone with fourteen years of experience I could make 4x more than I am now moving to the US and I'm making 4x more now than I did when I first started. I think there are two main drivers, competition for staff and culture. The first is kind of obvious there are a lot of people crammed together in these tech hubs and big companies with deep pockets buying their way into staff. Secondly the culture in these cities towards Software Engineering is much different. It feels like the UK and Europe still view programming as a cost center and that it's a low status white collar job. That's not really the case in tech hubs abroad.
I do feel that there is more to life than making lots of money though and am pretty sure that I'm settled where I am with a good quality of living.
As an aside it's pretty depressing that 21k is still a starting salary in the UK. My first proper games job was in Dundee which has a low cost of living and I was paid that much over a decade ago!
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There are multiple factors at play here.
**The tech culture is different.** In the tech hubs in the US companies are looking for "top" programmers, whereas in Europe many companies are just looking for average programmers. There's still a culture in Europe of programmers being commodity workers, and unions often push toward *harmonizing* the salaries. Except in Finance; in Finance salaries are 2x/3x that of regular programmers, because FinTech also aims for "top" programmers, and has the means to do so.
**The work culture is different.** In Europe, you work 40h and call it a week. Work is often 9 to 5, and employers are very comprehensive about family emergencies. I am in the Netherlands at the moment, and I have seen people advising the boss' boss that they couldn't attend the meeting at 6PM because they had to pick up their kids; and the boss' boss would just smile and reschedule the next day. In the US, work weeks are closer to 50h/60h.
**The cost of living is different.** Even in the US, the cost of living varies greatly from city to city: Seattle, LA, NY are much more expensive that Chicago or Denver. Rent and transportation are generally big differentiators; and areas where living is more expensive must compensate by offering higher salaries. I used to live close to Nice (Riviera) in a quiet area, within biking distance of the beach and work, and it cost me about $650/month to rent a 50m^2 apartment... which I found expensive, actually. A quick at San Francisco, for the same surface, gives me a low bound of $2,500/month. Well, of course I'd be looking at an extra $24,000/year after taxes to cover the costs.
**Insurance/Pension.** In Western Europe, you'll get basic healthcare and pensions by default. And as a software engineer, you can generally pay a little extra to get better healthcare (options include: eye and teeth care, as well as physio) and higher pensions. I had a French colleague working in the US for two years; he and his wife had a baby there, and he estimated that it cost him $10k overall in medical care (he was reimbursed by the French social security... after 2 years because bureaucracy). In France, you'll rarely see someone over 65y working, and 70y only work in very specific positions (PhDs, CEOs, ...). The average retired persons are not rich, but a retired couple typically earns enough to make a decent living, especially as healthcare is *still* free even if you're not working.
*Note: said colleague mentioned that as a European, a good plan may be to work 10 years in the US out of university, before coming back to Europe to fund a family. In the 20-30 range and without kids, healthcare is often a non-issue, and you still have time to work on your pension.*
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* Yes, they still pay for healthcare. In US even with the best insurance you'll still get a higher out-of-pocket than in countries like France (not sure about UK). It's just that it will be capped, something like 10k or 15k of max out of pocket but that might not include out-of-network. Because you do have to care whether your doctor is in the network of your insurance or not... And the most renowned surgeons are not (because they're too expensive)
* Rent in London or Vancouver is not cheap, but it's still way lower than SF.
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22k in pounds or 22k in USD? In the US a "game engineer" usually makes around 50k - 60k and that's low; that's why indie games became so huge because the actual skilled engineers figured out they could just self-publish for way way more.
Also "game development" is so broad it's not even funny; engineers working on the core engine are likely making six figures, engineers working on game mechanics less, and ones doing scripting and level editing are likely making the lowest.
Games also can launch in a variety of quality states and typically companies producing them instead offer higher benefits in terms of stock over base salaries due to games initial investment.
Remember, software engineering is a business before anything else; no one wants to pay you for something no one wants and the quicker you learn that the quicker you learn how to exploit that for a higher income.
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£22k. I only know british and european developers, really. A friend tells me that I should be applying to work in Sweden, as he works there as an engineer and finds it to be brilliant. They seem to pay better on average.
Yep, game scripting pays pretty badly. A friend interviewed at a big scottish games company as a scripter, and was offered just above minimum wage for his age bracket.
I'm sadly aware. Thankfully I'm in an OK position for negotiating for my graduate salary, as I've had two industry jobs already. :)
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* How will you distinguish [http://www.pool.ntp.org](http://www.pool.ntp.org/) vs [http://pool.ntp.org](http://pool.ntp.org/) ? One takes you to the website about the project, the other goes to a random ntp server.
* Why is www hidden twice if the domain is "www.www.2ld.tld"?
* "[subdomain.www.domain.com](http://subdomain.www.domain.com/)" displays as "[subdomain.domain.com](http://subdomain.domain.com/)".
* The domain [m.tumblr.com](http://m.tumblr.com/) is shown as [tumblr.com](http://tumblr.com/), two totally different sites.
* Enter into the address bar: [http://www.example.www.example.com](http://www.example.www.example.com/) It shortens it: [example.example.com](http://example.example.com/)
* The site "[www.m.www.m.example.com](http://www.m.www.m.example.com/)" should not show up as "[example.com](http://example.com/)".
Wow.
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#if defined(OS_ANDROID) || defined(OS_IOS)
// Eliding the "m" subdomain on Desktop can be confusing, since users would
// generally want to know if they are unintentionally on the mobile site.
if (subdomain == "m")
return true;
#endif
Man that comment shows them almost getting it. It doesn't matter what device I am on, I always want to see exactly where I am or at least have the option to.
Or maybe I want to decide myself which ones I want to see and which I don't. Hard coding this badly thought out arbitrary logic into the browser is just awful.
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On the upside, if www disappears for the UI from users, at least it might be more noticable if a phishing site used wwwexample.com to fake being example.com. Generally speaking the more text in the UI, [the less people tend to read anything particular from it](https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/26/designing-for-people-who-have-better-things-to-do-with-their-lives/). This is not to say Chrome's current implementation of this is any good, I haven't tried in depth yet, and above examples suggests it's far from perfect.
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Trivial subdomains or not - it's not the job of the _browser_ to decide these things. I got equally annoyed at Firefox doing "magic URL" bullshit until I figured out how to turn it off.
If your users aren't getting to your site because of poorly configured subdomains, that's entirely _your_ problem. Browsers attempting to "fix" what they see as "user error" is one thing, but to not allow an option too change that... That's just not cricket.
This type of bullshit, if it must exist, should only happen when the initial request fails, or by offering a clickable prompt to the user to switch to the "canonical" domain.
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\> chrome 69 is not doing that. Only subdomain is getting hidden.
Exactly. Thus wwwexample.com would more visibly stick out to casual users, who are now usually not seeing the "www" anymore, thereby possibly increasing the chance they become suspicious.
There are of course still a myriad of other things you can do to create fake domains for phishing URLs, so I'm just mentioning above as one consideration in the Pros Cons sea.
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>specially because most people won't know about this change
I was not suggesting that anyone would need to consciously know about the change. We agree that casual users won't. What I was suggesting is that there might be a chance that "wwwexample.com" would start to stick out more than before to casual users, because "www." becomes more uncommon. (Emphasis on *may*, as originally mentioned, because to know for sure we'd need to do user testing to get statistical values.)
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> I can't believe entering a FULL URL causes Chrome to search for it.
This is one of the behaviors of Chrome that I hate the most.
I write in a full URL, and the site says timeout, connection refused or whatever, because I wrote the wrong port or something. I add a port number and suddenly Chrome does a google search for something it considered a valid URL only seconds ago.
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> Doubt it, most users likely wouldn't care. Especially because most people won't know about this change unless they care because they're devs
Previously users had a chance of understanding how the address bar worked. I mean... Most people didn't, but they *could* if they wanted to and put in some effort.
Now it's going to be pure magic pixie-dust black-box voodoo made by Google which seemingly works randomly.
Good luck trying to make *anyone* outside Google understand the address-bar now.
Phishers are going to *love* this.
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I swapped a month back myself. The performance is incomparable and the extensions available are far better. Only downsides Ive dealt with is that the hangouts extension is somehow worse than chrome, meaning I actually have to run chrome in the background. That and downloads are surprisingly annoying by comparison.
Theres no way to make the default "save" for certain extensions (For "security"... how even?), and I cant believe how much I miss the download bar. I feel like a savage having to actually open my downloads folder.
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> How will you distinguish http://www.pool.ntp.org vs http://pool.ntp.org ? One takes you to the website about the project, the other goes to a random ntp server.
When you write either in the address bar, it takes you to that URL. It just shows them as the same address.
But since clicking is much more of a rage than writing addresses manually, I think the big problem is that you may be on a different site than you think you are. You probably don't know where the clicked link pointed and unless you double click the omni box, you won't know since there are multiple alternative "trivially" named sites that would also render to the same.
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No, they are still working on replacing them. This is the first step, next is that you will just type 'google' or 'facebook' and it will bring you directly to the website that Google think you want.
And obviously this 'text' to 'url' translation will be driven by Google Search. Either it will be completely secure and somehow companies will have to pay or register to Google so Facebook will open Facebook.com, which would be bad for small companies, communities or persons. Or it will be a proxy of the 'I' m lucky' search feature, so it will be even less secure because people will find ways to abuse the search IA like they do for the YouTube one. Either way, Google will controls the Internet.
The same guys blaming gouvernements about net neutrality.
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It just opens up another form for phishing though.
Every page that gives a user a subdomain, and allows them to create their own sub-subdomains are at risk.
Lets take Azure as an example (I don't know for sure if the they allow users to create sub-subdomains):
Lets say I own the `example.azurewebsites.net`-subdomain.
Lets assume that Eve own the `www.azurewebsites.net` or `m.azurewebsites.net`. Eve can now create her own sub-subdomain called `example`, which would become `example.www.azurewebsites.net`, but Chrome would display it as `example.azurewebsites.net`, but that is MY url with HER content.
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Are you fucking dumb? Does my post look like a reply to nothing to you? Did your awareness teleport to it with no other experiences permitted? Do you think the leaves of a tree might have something to do with the branches and the trunk of the tree?
Fucking hell, why is it only this website that induces such idiocy in its users? I thought it was only a massive experiment in censorship. Clearly there's more going on.
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I can complain or be angry without hating right?
I think you are the problem here. You are the one wishing to destroy dissent and attacking people who disagree with you. You are the one saying this place should only consist of people who agree with each other. You are the one asking for a safe space where nobody is allowed to complain.
You guys are worse than the SJWs you guys hate so much.
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Except that you don't contribute anything, *all* you do is complain.
About 90% of your posts are harassing other people, or trying to rile people up.
All of your posts can literally be summarized as:
* Screw Microsoft.
* Screw Google.
* If you disagree with me, you're an evil SJW-hater.
I feel like you are one of those people on GitHub who literally doesn't contribute *anything* other than editing files to make them more politically correct, and then pats yourself on the back about it for a job well done. And when things doesn't go their way, raises a mob on Twitter, dox the person, and tries to get them fired because they dared disagree with you.
All you do is troll. You're not contributing to the community. The "this guy and his pumpkins" guy contributed more.
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>Except that you don't contribute anything, all you do is complain.
>About 90% of your posts are harassing other people, or trying to rile people up
So by using the statistics you pulled out of your butt I do contribute about 10% of the time and therefore your first sentence is a lie.
>I feel like you are one of those people on GitHub who literally doesn't contribute anything other than editing files to make them more politically correct, and then pats yourself on the back about it for a job well done. And when things doesn't go their way, raises a mob on Twitter, dox the person, and tries to get them fired because they dared disagree with you.
Do you not realize the irony of calling for a safe space from me? That you don't want to be criticized at all and yet want to spew your bile all over the place?
Sorry dude. The internet is not supposed to be a safe space. You are going to get criticized whether you like it or not.
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>So by using the statistics you pulled out of your butt I do contribute about 10% of the time and therefore your first sentence is a lie.
It \*\*may\*\* be pulled out of the butt, but is there only two states (contributing/not contributing) to get that logic of yours (10% wasn't described, but you assumed it's contribution because there is no other choice)? Or he said that 90% of posts are harassments, therefore other 10% can be anything, with exception of contribution (because he stated that you don't contribute)
I'm sorry but you're applying the logic the wrong way. And what worse - you doing it in the PUBLIC place, while trying to cover your unpopular (in this place) opinion (judging by karma), and that after you're really threw few insults at people! Why?
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>It **may** be pulled out of the butt
It is pulled out of your butt. At least be honest enough to admit that.
>I'm sorry but you're applying the logic the wrong way. And what worse - you doing it in the PUBLIC place, while trying to cover your unpopular (in this place) opinion (judging by karma), and that after you're really threw few insults at people! Why?
My comment karma is over 18000. My comment karma on this subreddit is 4997.
So according to your chosen metrics I am very popular.
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I'm sorry for not describing it even further, but:
\- **"This place"** refers to this very reddit post. It's explicitly applies to the **"karma"**, which means **"karma in this post"**, which is -44 at the moment of my comment.
Now lets see
>trying to cover your unpopular (in this place) opinion (judging by karma),
​
>My comment karma is over 18000. My comment karma on this subreddit is 4997. So according to your chosen metrics I am very popular.
\- I'm talking about your opinion on this current topic being unpopular, you're talking about YOU being popular, see the contradiction? My chosen metric says what i intended it to say.
​
>It is pulled out of your butt. At least be honest enough to admit that.
I took a brief glance at what can be identified "insult" in this post, and I think he made very good estimate, actually.
​
And don't forget that I actually said that your use of logic in
>I do contribute about 10% of the time and therefore your first sentence is a lie.
is wrong, and provided logical reasoning behind my statement, which is
>Is there only two states (contributing/not contributing) to get that logic of yours (10% wasn't described, but you assumed it's contribution because there is no other choice)? Or he said that 90% of posts are harassments, therefore other 10% can be anything, with exception of contribution (because he stated that you don't contribute)
and I have yet to hear any arguments against that. You dug to deep into other details and missing the point of this debate!
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>- "This place" refers to this very reddit post. It's explicitly applies to the "karma", which means "karma in this post", which is -44 at the moment of my comment.
Oh by this place you didn't mean reddit or /r/programming but this particular post.
Got it. Now I am getting some clues as to how you think. This is very helpful.
Yes I knew I was going to be down voted because I know how strong the circle jerk on this subreddit it. I could have made an angry post about thow blue haired kids with the pierced noses and gotten a +44 karma. I have lots of karma to burn and I really don't care what angry old men think of me so I felt fine about saying this change doesn't bother me.
Trust me, I know how angry your type gets, I sometimes visit /r/thedonald to keep up to date on you guys.
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Thats really off the topic yet again. i don't speaking about your karma with exception of points in this only post pointing on opinion being unpopular (maybe only unpopular only in this subreddit, maybe even only in this very post)
I just described my way of thinking to you and directly stated which elements I used and why to derive such statement in first comment and i just patiently waiting on your arguments about your statement:
>User said you dont contribute at all and 90% of your comments (in this post) are insults. You stated that undescribed 10% therefore are contributions which contradicts his first statesment. I stepped in and said that's not a contradiction, because that 10% can be anything with exception of contribution, there is actually more than two things that comment may be (for example offtopic without insults or trolling, being on topic but just playing semantics or repeating other comments, with same or different wording), so 10% can be non-insulting AND non-contributing. Which means user doesnt contradict himself.
If you have any difficulty with understanding the meaning of my why of thinking - just write it in reply, format it into list if there is too much.
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>Thats really off the topic yet again. i don't speaking about your karma with exception of points in this only post pointing on opinion being unpopular (maybe only unpopular only in this subreddit, maybe even only in this very post) I just described my way of thinking to you and directly stated which elements I used and why to derive such statement in first comment and i just patiently waiting on your arguments about your statement:
That is simply incomprehensible.
You are talking about my karma but not talking about my karma?
>If you have any difficulty with understanding the meaning of my why of thinking - just write it in reply, format it into list if there is too much.
You don't make much sense at all. Maybe it's a generational thing I don't know. You seem to be obsessed with popularity and talk about karma and then claim that you weren't talking about karma.
You sound like an old man with alzheimer's or a trump supporter to me.
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>As if chickens can pick their eggs and leave the farm at their will.
I never hired myself at any company or firm; I *got* hired.
Likewise, leaving a workplace because you don't like the job is **not** a luxury most can afford.
I did, three times, decide to quit a job despite having a permanent contract. Why? Because I could, not needing to support a family, and because I did not need to worry about finding a new job.
Lastly, are you trolling? Or do you not see how many software engineers are being abused like some sort of cattle?
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Why do you think I am trolling? You are comparing people with free will, and highly qualified on top of that to literally enslaved animals. I am not saying the position of the developer in the current job market is perfect, but compared to many other professions it is okay.
Leaving a workplace because my objectives do not align with my employers' is not a luxury for me, it is a necessity. Maybe not short term, but medium term it is definitely doable, especially if you are experienced. Yes, I got hired too, but I will never adopt that victim mentality "being abused like some sort of cattle".
Staying at a place where you hate the job is bad for you, bad for your employer, and bad for your family. I am not saying you have to throw a hissy fit and slam the door, but you can be strategic about your life, unlike the animals in the farm.
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>enslaved animals
You mean.. animals in husbandry? Do you not know the proper word, or is your perception of the world radically out of line with that of 99.5% of humanity?
>but compared to many other professions it is okay
In many professions in the USA it is really horrible. So, being just horrible in comparison, I would say it is relatively okay. Just like getting shot in your guts is quite okay compared to being shot in the face.
>Leaving a workplace because my objectives do not align with my employers' is not a luxury for me, it is a necessity.
You are exactly **wrong** (which is adjacent to right, but with an impassable border) It is a luxury to be able to make choices that prevent you from suffering! If less lucky, you will have to endure the suffering to survive.
>but you can be strategic about your life, unlike the animals in the farm.
Some people literally cannot leave their job without facing the consequence of being homeless, defaulting on loans, losing their insurance and not being able to let their family leave in dignity.
What choice do such people have? - In fact, the human ability to reflect upon one's situation, consciousness, compounds to that misery.
**You are only right for your (and mine) privileged situation**
This privilege is a result of our 'being skilled and wanted' by employers. To those who are not both skilled and wanted, strategy here is a useless thing that does not help them.
That we **can afford** strategy, that *is our luxury/privilege*.
That said, I have had to fight to get this privilege, and switching/quitting jobs is what got me here. But you can't just get move around in this (or any!) industry easily if you depend on your paycheck too much.
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\> Software developers **produce** the things that are sold.
I find that this is very rarely the case.
when its a software company, then yes you are a profit center and you get treated as such. But most companies , a software developer creates software to help the business run. Most executives can connect more than two dots, so all they see, is that you cost money because they don't make money off the things you make. Sometimes, it's a situation where you are needed for regulatory reasons and you are hired because "They have to" and they don't see the value.
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So you wrote all of that just to try to make that you thought to be a clever point about the wording of a title that was clearly just meant to draw attention... when the article itself immediately states that they're referring to capital specifically?
"A majority of companies say lack of access to software developers is a bigger threat to success than lack of access to capital."
It's like right under the title of the article in the first bullet point dude.
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> My setup
Are you trying to convert an existing project to typescript?
I've never done it actually, just went straight with typescript from the start, but you could probably do it if you create a new project with https://github.com/wmonk/create-react-app-typescript and then just rewrite existing components in typescript. You don't need any experience with webpack.
>making typescript harder to work with along with React
Haven't experienced that. It may make the code more verbose at times, but that's it. Also some libraries may not have the typings and you need to write them yourself, but it's rather rare.
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Thanks for your input, it is invaluable.
It's not that I want to migrate an existent project. It's just that I've experimented enough that I know exactly what I want to start with, for a bigger project of mine.
I've actually started working with https://github.com/kitze/custom-react-scripts#readme that allows me to enable/disable features I need much more easily than create-react-app with its default scripts does.
So, you don't think I'll have compatibility problems always trying to babysit webpack with that?
I might as well give it a try :)
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People have been complaining about Java's type system issues for literally decades (generics implemented via type erasure is one big oof).
To be fair, yes, it would be more accurate to say that I wouldn't exactly point at Java as a stellar example of *compile-time* type safety - and since TS really only exists at compile time that's the only comparison you can make. In addition TypeScript's type system is unsound by design.
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Microsoft has always really nailed developer tools *when they put their minds to it*.
Cynics will point to stuff like their C++ compiler being years behind, and that's a fair criticism, but their C++ compiler has never been a priority for them. If they *did* make it a priority to make a truly world-class modern C++ compiler, I've no doubt they'd have a compiler that could stand toe to toe with the best compilers very quickly.
Their biggest flaw in the past was that the business always forced them to tie their tools tightly to the Windows bandwagon. Now that they're all about Azure and have been let off the Windows leash, the tools they put out are finally able to be used by a wider audience.
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`any` is an escape hatch that's in there solely to ease the ramp onto the language from a legacy JavaScript code base.
Putting the compiler in strict mode disables the implicit `any` type (and with the recent `unknown` type which fills the niche `any` previously filled but without any of the non-type-safe baggage, it's likely a future version of the compiler will have an option to disable *explicit* use of `any` too).
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Depends on the library, I guess. Type-unfriendly APIs (methods which may return different types depending on arbitrary characteristics of the input, for example) can be hard, and lack or low quality of third-party definitions (DefinitelyTyped) is also a hurdle.
But I’ve been fairly happy with Angular and Node development in the last several months; most of the time I managed to find good dependencies, and built-in first-party definitions, while still rare outside of the Angular world, is getting noticeably more common.
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Hey! I work with typescript and react together every day and yeah definitely try it. You can either incrementally migrate a js project to typescript or start fresh with ts. Webpack isn’t the biggest problem. Typescript will emit JS via tsc but there are great typescript loaders.
I’m on my phone right now but will update this comment with more info at work in the morning. Typescript is seriously awesome though, for client and server side code.
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TS+React works great in my experience. React has pretty complete type definitions, as does the surrounding ecosystem. As a beginner, I was able to get all of my components fully typesafe by just studying the type definitions of the libraries. Of course, nothing's perfect and you might occasionally run into an issue where you need to give the compiler a hint or nudge, but the error messages are usually pretty good at providing guidance toward a resolution. As the other poster mentioned, if you use `create-react-app`, there's no need to deal with webpack directly.
Good resources:
- https://github.com/sw-yx/react-typescript-cheatsheet
- https://github.com/piotrwitek/react-redux-typescript-guide
- https://medium.com/@martin_hotell
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Big thing is just having the ide tell you the type of something.
I found myself jumping back and forth between files a bunch when developing or debugging. Checking the properties on some object, or forgetting the parameters to a function. With everything properly typed, I can often cmd+space and get exactly the answer I wanted.
Integrating a compiler to your CI also means its very hard to have a simple mistake get into production. We definitely had a few flubs that should have been caught in code review or a unit test... but nobody found it. Turns out machines are useful to check for correctness.
And then there is refactoring. When the ide has a better idea on what your code is doing, its refactoring tools are more useful. And if you forget something the compiler yells at you. I like to aggressively refactor, but in JavaScript I wasn't confident in doing that. Now with typescript I have that confidence back.
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TypeScript has had `--strictNullChecks` for years. It forces null checks at compile time. It's also flow based, so once the null check is made the compiler knows it's no longer nullable.
Because it's flow based it allows code like this ...
const foo : Foo|null = getFoo()
// Compiler forces you to check if it's null before use.
if ( foo !== null ) {
// Compiler knows it's not null here.
foo.doSomething()
}
There is also *A LOT* of type things you can do in TypeScript which you cannot do in Scala.
Edit; and actually the `: Foo|null` type declaration isn't needed since TypeScript will infer it. I only put it there to drive the point home.
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> Cynics will point to stuff like their C++ compiler being years behind,
I've had much worse experience with mac compilers because their systems ship with ancient versions of clang or gcc, and updating them seems to be very difficult. Speaking as someone who doesn't have a mac but got lots of github issues because mac devs couldn't compile code that was using the filesystem API. No issues on windows and linux.
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Yeah, IDE/editor support won't rival that of VS Code + TypeScript, but will be far more lightweight than IntelliJ and Scala IDE for example.
Scala.js is simply phenomenal, I wish I could I use it on the frontend for current project, but it was already written in TypeScript + Angular before I came onboard.
Really the biggest win with Scala.js is that it is Scala (an oft repeated phrase in the community). Sometimes I'm not sure if I'm working on the frontend or the backend. Code sharing is really nice, no need to duplicate model definitions, form validations, or any other shared data, it's all the same.
With Scala on the backend and TypeScript on the frontend we've got tons of duplicate code, it's a mess.
TypeScript is awesome in its own right, but the sheer number of runtime errors I've gotten over the past year makes me crave full-time Scala/Scala.js where runtime errors are an absolute rarity.
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Turbo Pascal 6.0 + Turbo Vision versus C, the choice is obvious for anyone that cared about security and productivity on MS-DOS and later Windows.
I saved money as high school student to then buy Turbo Pascal for Windows 1.5 with Object Windows Library, a couple of years later.
The only big problem was portability to other platforms, hence why eventually I became a C++ fan, because after tasting Turbo Pascal in no way I could be happy with C.
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Same here, those manuals were massive -- I think I got a used copy for maybe $125. As that was before the modern Internet, manuals like that is all you could pour over as selection of software books at the local library was rather poor (like the 3-volume "100 BASIC games")
My next bible was "Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment" which shaped me even more. Sadly Richard Stevens' life was cut short.
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Does it have to be that he made a disingenuous switch "to stay relevant"? Or, could it be that:
- He didn't care about relevance? Or,
- He genuinely was interested in the new challenges inherent upon a change in platform? Or,
- He was simply offered a good-paying job at a company he wanted to work for, with the freedom to design something he might like to design? Or,
- He was intrigued by the unique challenge of trying to make something really good out of JavaScript? Or,
- He wanted genuinely to help the wide world of frontend developers by giving them what would become TypeScript?
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He had said in an interview that when he moved from Borland to Microsoft the main motivation wasn't money but the impact that MS had on the industry which would mean that his work would affect more people. Probably this is the reason why he switched from C# to TypeScript. Arguably contributing more to C# which is already full featured (and still developed by other people) wouldn't help as many developers as introducing TypeScript
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I probably didn't describe it properly. I know about async-await and promises and I use them regularely in javascript. However, C# extents this to parallel threads as well, not only async functions. You can await an async function, but you can also await a parallel running task until it is finished.
This is not possible in js, at least not readily available without workarounds. You could probably create a promise that resolves once a WebWorker posts a finish message, but that's extra work and comparatively cumbersome.
edit:
Example:
async but single-threaded, works in js, and C#:
var result = await doSomething();
async and multi-threaded.
await t waits until the seperate thread for Task t has finished, without blocking the current thread. only works in C#. Would love to have this in JS.
SomeType result = null;
Task t = Task.Run(async () => {
result = await doSomething();
});
await t;
(var instead of let because that's what works in C# & JS)
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no, not exactly, he went to a crater of a dormant volcano and lived there for 7 long years, he slept on the rocks and ate snakes and scorpions, there he engraved the entire text of Pascal compiler on the walls 300 ft tall with a chisel made of a meteorite, and then ran it in all in his mind countless times until there was not a single bug left in his code and 3 mile radius, then he forged a 3'5 disk out of the magnetic ore and used a lightning strike to inscribe the code on it, and then he came back to our world and gave it to humans
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Yeah man these guys are the worst! Little fucking cry babies that got nothing better to do. Most black people are not even bottered by this. Companies need to stop giving these crybabies what they want all day. You're offended by something? I got news for ya: nobody gives a damn fuck, you little shits.
This world is fucked with the generation of pussies to come. I hope I die way before they take the lead, cause lets be real, who wants to live in a world full of pussies that get offended about things that don't matter all the damn time.
And finally I'll leave y'all with a question to make you realise how dumb and shitty you are. You say you're all for black people right's don't ya? Then why the fuck aren't you in Afrika helping these black people with actual problems instead of getting offended. Bloody fucking hypocrits that's what y'all are. Your generation disgusts me.
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It was a joke. But in all honesty, I may want to block things like this. It's a degenerative, dark and downward spiral induced by people like Guido van Rossum who live in SF, where most have a politically correct agenda. I mean: We remove a scientifically accurate term, putting actual effort into completely removing said term from a codebase, just so people feel better? Really? Where does it stop? I tell you where: It stops until no words are left. People are going to die because of this trend and the people helping to spark this trend have no idea what kind of future lies ahead. I think they are stupid and have limited to no ability to think outside of their own emotions. I'm getting scorched for this on Reddit for saying this, but I'm not backing down. I'm tired of this shit.
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Soo, guido says "There is no point in continuing the debate. We’ve all had our say."
If you look at the actual bug on BPO, where they all had their say, [most of the people involved seem to be against it, yet the ex-BDFL closes the issue saying that there is no need for a discussion to be open](https://bugs.python.org/issue34605)
For someone supposedly retired from ruling the Python development, the authoritarian spirit seems to live on. Perhaps that's why " vstinner added the skip news label 5 days ago".
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Not only that the thread has posts showing exactly why this is bad. Not to mention with each change to Redis, python or others anyone who wants to upgrade now has to go through and change those terms in their code. How can company docs talking about Redis slaves and masters? If I'm new and I learn Redis they are called Parent and Replica so already it's out of sync now. That's not wasted effort ripping throughout tech?
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Postmaster? Master Craftsmen etc, should these be changed? It's not like you can find and replace due to this other terms so it is wasted effort to go patch these out. Just look at the Redis PR it's a nightmare.
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And why does the OP keep saying it's for diversity? Which race of people historically have never been enslaved by another? This is non-sense.
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> And why does the OP keep saying it's for diversity? Which race of people historically have never been enslaved by another? This is non-sense
I couldn't agree more. It really shows that there is no diversity involved in this, it's pure egoism – "it means these things to *me*, I don't care if it means different things to *you*". I'm obviously biased since I'm an evil privileged asshole who disagrees with this change, but to me it seems like more of an opposite of diversity.
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> Well yeah most "anti-diversity" people tend to be pretty racist
What you say here is imho the root of the problem at hand: the idea that if someone disagrees with you on a sensitive issue then they're evil and not worth listening to. It shuts down all the actual discussion we could have had, because why talk if you know you're right and everyone else is wrong? And how is that different from "women shouldn't vote because they have no idea about politics" and all those other idiocies we supposedly grew out of decades ago?
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>Postmaster? Master Craftsmen etc, should these be changed?
I mean...America (assuming most of the developers on this project are American) has a pretty deep and unusually recent history with slavery and an even more recent experience with the brutal racism that followed the Civil war as a result of slavery being ended.
America has no such history with postmasters or craftsmen.
Seems unsurprising that some Americans may not want references to slavery that in their code, but would be ok with the other terms you listed.
I wouldn't be surprised if Germans were opposed to using the phrase "The Final Solution" no matter what the context was because of the history with the phrase.
>And why does the OP keep saying it's for diversity? Which race of people historically have never been enslaved by another? This is non-sense.
Many races have been enslaved, but few as recently as black people in America, and its not like freedom really followed with the end of slavery. It makes sense that this is particularly fresh in people's memories compared to other races.
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The **Slavery** Abolition Act 1833 (3 & 4 Will. IV c. 73) abolished **slavery** throughout the **British** Empire.
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Thirteenth Amendment in **December 1865** formally ended the legal institution throughout the United States.
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It's not been longer since slavery legally existed by far than the difference in time between other countries ending the practice. Though many today in 2018 still do practice slavery.
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Are there any people alive that were slaves in the US or owned slaves in the US?
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This is about controlling language and controlling people and nothing more.
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> What you say here is imho the root of the problem at hand: the idea that if someone disagrees with you on a sensitive issue then they're evil and not worth listening to.
Nice try but no. If they disagree with me on whether or not I have a right to exist around them based on the color of my skin, I think they're evil and not worth listening to.
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> America has a pretty deep and unusually recent history with slavery
There's slavery *right now* in Libya. There's slavery in immigrant communities in the West. There are also things that you might strain yourself to describe as possibly *marginally* worse than forced labor. I dunno, forced prostitution?
> not like freedom really followed with the end of slavery.
There are conditions that I would not hesitate to describe as *at least* as bad as "having to sit at the back of the bus" all over the fucking world. I dunno, getting bombed? Living in a warzone?
> It makes sense that this is particularly fresh in people's memories compared to other races.
This is like journalists justifying paying attention to something "because it's controversial" when they're making it controversial and could at a whim suck the oxygen out of their own controversy by focusing on anything else.
If you dropped it, it'd be dropped. And if you dropped it, you'd have more time for issues that are actually pressing, issues that people *can't* turn off simply by not paying attention to them.
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> There's slavery right now in Libya. There's slavery in immigrant communities in the West. There are also things that you might strain yourself to describe as possibly marginally worse than forced labor. I dunno, forced prostitution?
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This only adds to the list of reasons why Master/Slave should be banned. There is still slavery going on today. Imagine someone escaping captivity as a child, getting a CS education and a job, and having to use the Master/Slave terminology given their past.
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Yeah and how about when they go to movies and see people die. That would be just awful.
How about when when a female ex-slave Libyan PHD of CS goes to a feminist convention and they're talking about 50 Shades of Gray. Alpha and Omega cringe.
How about when she walks by a [place of faith that isn't her own] and remembers that people exist who disagree with her even about the nature of the cosmos and the afterlife? What a blow.
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> If they disagree with me on whether or not I have a right to exist around them based on the color of my skin, I think they're evil and not worth listening to.
I thought we're talking about diversity as in “the word diversity we put on our flags to justify our arguments” rather than the actual idea of diversity - that's how I read Ruttur's comment anyway.
And as said before: when people tell you “shut the fuck up, you're white” in the name of “diversity” you may end up developing a certain antipathy for the movement as a whole and the bullshit phrases they flail around: even if you stand by their message with your whole heart.
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He didn't say it was insignificant, he said it's not the best date to go by because the amendment wasn't the end of the widespread discrimination of black people. Part of the reason slavery is still part of the discussion in the US is because in large parts of the country, there was still a lot of discrimination and no way for black people to be a full part of society. That was only legally ended with the Civil Rights Act, which was only 50 or so years ago. And that's just legally, not in society as a whole.
He was crass about it, but he has a point.
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You are exactly right. We have to do something and stop the slavery going on in the world.
Changing Master/Slave terminology so that former slaves are not offended by those words is something. It is not going to stop slavery, it is not going to free any slaves and I doubt former slaves even care about this terminology being used, but it is something.
Congratulations, you did something. I hope it makes you feel good that you did something, because that is the important part here, right? Feeling like you did something.
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