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<poi> |
So basically, most of the intrinsic value comes on downside will be non cooperatively to our side. And the ones you put are premise on non violence. Could you explain, for example, why people meeting without police get out of no violence more violence? |
</poi> |
I think the point here is that police protection. But in your word, there still be police coming to form security. The difference is they are exclusively there to protect protesters, and that in itself, is really a comparative benefit. I think you need to import. The important bit here is what is health in sexual indi... |
<lo> |
<dpm> |
Pride is something that I no longer want to attend and don't see a huge benefit from going to. If I want to go to a party, gays throw a great party. I can go to a party any night of the week, and I can drink and I can dance with my friends, but if I want to go somewhere to have a genuine discussion about where the LGBT... |
I think what's also better about our queer liberation March is because you have more time to have political discussion, you could have a diversity of different opinions being voiced, whereas when you have limited time for discussion, you can only enforce one narrative. So I now want to deal with what is the purpose of ... |
Firstly, because they've got a sense of ownership from history. Secondly, because there's a need and awareness for them to be able to politically engage. I think fair people, because of many people, it's just one of their first experiences with the LGBT movement. If you live in like a rural area, pride might be the fir... |
<poi> |
So the problem with this speech is that all the descriptions of pride is potentially correct. But the problem is, what is it? What are structural reasons why the Q lib movement March is better than the current situation? |
</poi> |
I think we've made that very clear, you can engage in political activism, but if you look, there will not be corporations there, so there won't be the same incentive to make it into a drunk Pride March. Like, I know, the way of describing the intro slide did not make it seem like it was going to be a big party. It made... |
So say, secondly, I want to deal with the impact, how we manage to lead to political activism. Because I think that pride is a unique forum, to be able to engage people and to be able to lead to political activism, and that's a very key important part of it. It's also a chance we were able to enroll in other organizati... |
</dpm> |
<dlo> |
The naive characterization of the queer liberation movement loses the opening government this debate, there are two facets that characterize the queer liberation movement, structurally and we told you this and they got no response. |
The first is that they were overwhelmingly divisive in the way that they manifest. Because I want to note here the amount of frustration that people of color and the queer movement historically tell towards their white counterparts in the way that they manifested. So the way that this occurred two years ago, when cops ... |
The second thing that we told you is that these movements were overwhelmingly violent. There was a danger to your life, overwhelmingly there was an enormous amount of rage, and there's very limited incentive to moderate that is important and will be in my two issues of Republic. |
The first is on the policy argument of opening government. I want to know here just how grossly uncomparative this argument is coming from opening government. They make two claims. |
The first is that there is no clear message that comes out of the pride movement in the first place. I want to reject that this is false, for the reason that Raza gives you, which is every movement and every interview that is given at the pride movement has a specific theme. This year, it was to help the black people o... |
The second thing they say is that there is less discussion generally of policy issues. I want to note here. This is the unique benefit of their cyber house, and so bizarrely small that I think they lose on this basis, because they had to prove that that policy discussion manifested in something, and it was unclear why ... |
The second thing that we said was that it was more likely to be divisive. In the first instance, the vast majority of the QRP actually does not support gay marriage because they think it is a heteronormative institution that's hugely divisive to the 1000s of men and women who have been married in same sex couples over ... |
The second thing they say is that this is exclusionary, and they say there's no incentive for corporations to include this. The first is, I'm going to reject this in the first place, because it's literally just an assertion. We think that the huge strides the LGBTQ community has made in terms of getting things like gay... |
At best, you had some conversation, but there was huge division and an undoing of the perceptions of LGBT people that you needed to get that policy change versus under outside of class, less discussion, but foot in the door, or boardrooms, where there is a normalization of trans people, where there is the capacity to e... |
At the end of that, ask yourself, who's coming up ahead. It's clearly opening opposition, hoping government. |
<poi> |
Yet your characterization of what these countries are like is liberal, already accepting, already incredibly tolerant, when the LGBTQ community has already made massive inroads. If that's the case, you need to take that one step further and advocate for changes to the system, rather than the previous message of tolerat... |
</poi> |
Yes, and we can do that by saying the current system is intolerant, and therefore we should change the system. What you do is antagonize your systems and say you want to bring them down in totality, which means you're far less likely to get the support you need at the end of that, I want to tell you what this actually ... |
It is a quiet movement that allows you at the end of it, even if you disagree with that prior movement, it is one that is powerful, and we would rather have your preferences reflected on it, rather than a powerless movement. We would have young queer people who do not know there's an enormous queer community that is co... |
</dlo> |
<mg> |
We’re going to win this debate by telling you that the stronger March. It's particularly bad because it excludes people who are difficult in normal life to participate in this kind of March, to go to the marches, to participate from the debate and to get included in the community. But first, let me do three things. Fir... |
Second thing before our arguments on over impacting in this debate, the most likely thing, is that none of them proves real impact in this debate. Because probably it is true that in both sides, we have people having riots and manifestations which bring attention, probably both sides to change policies. And probably no... |
At the end of the day what we say no, CG, is that regardless of the world in which you live in, which you did you did to this debate, we think that it's much more likely that the people that don't usually go to these riots go in their side. Why is there a case? |
First because excludes you to politicization. Look, there's good reasons to believe that regardless of the country or the world in which you live in, there's politicization of this march first, what does the politicians do with this march? For example, Podemos in Spain, civica in Greece, they claim that this manifestat... |
So our point is, regardless of the country we want in which you believe in, the incentives of the left exist to go to these parties because they claim they are the way to defend those rights. And that leads to moderate Open Services, more to joining these marches as a consequence of this, we think that this is particul... |
But the second reason why it is bad at excluding people is because it's close those same people, the moderate to go due to the maximum participation. Aim Trent told you something weird, which is the corporations fund this intense, they push for motivation. I don't see how. I don't know how they say maximum participatio... |
First, the way you approach to it is to commercialize the manifestation. No, you bring a big parties, big teachers, big people to say that the manifestation is good. You bring alcohol. You bring weird stresses. You make like contest. Who is bringing the weirdest stress? Who is the biggest symbol in our riot? Who is, I ... |
Why is this true? Because they don't empathize with that. They see, they feel that those people that Obrador, even if they share things with them, as in their LGTB, they don't feel persuaded by the way those things are presented. They say, I am not going to see like those weird dresses over there. This is good reason w... |
At the end of this debate, you'll probably believe that in both sides, people keep going to the marches, but we bring something unique, which is that the people that usually didn't know in our world, they have more easiness to go. Those are the most important debates, because they are the ones who get mobilized the oth... |
</mg> |
<mo> |
It took 50 years of courage and 50 years of blood to get to the point that you could have a gay US presidential candidate, that you could have a Supreme Court affirm the rights of LGBT people, that you could have the UK legalize gay marriage. It seemed audacious to me that having come so far and achieved so much, that ... |
First of all, opening government very poorly to their case, center on the idea that we need these marches to be a nexus of political discussion that currently pride in its form does not allow for an advanced discussion about what movement should aim for and what it should fight for most strongly, and that is the thing ... |
I think there is a decent incentive, first of all, right wing politicians to also come to these events and stand up and get the same sort of vote gaining opportunities. I mean, they would, for example, not be able to explain how the Tory party went from supporting section 28 in the span of, like, 30 years to being the ... |
First of all, political change. I want to know that the first thing I asked open government was to name the extreme political changes they're facing, and what we got in response was radio silence. I promised that DPM would tell us and then nothing subsequently. What are the actual things that the LGBT community faces e... |
For example, having education in the school where your child might be educated about what gay people are and the way they lead their lives and why they should accept them, or having to have government funding of things like transition surgery. These are things that put real pressure on straight people and are far more ... |
What are the benefits that you get on our side? Cast first of all, politically, I think it's staggering that no one has pointed out there is a tremendous value of having politicians marching pride and be very visible when someone like Pete flier or like Penny Wong from Australia, he's at the front of these Pride marche... |
The second reason why this wouldn't is it just builds connection between political institutions and LGP institutions, the fact that politicians marginal pride and the political groups want to organize and be involved in the running of these things mean there is communication with people who have all the complicated dis... |
The second thing I want to talk about is funding. Now, to reiterate, obviously, you know, a lot of visibility just provides for like, is it a flamboyant event? Is it going to get on television, but a lot of people want to watch it. I think the important thing to notice here is that, yes, I agree. There are some differe... |
<poi> |
Right now we agree there is an event to cater to LGBT groups, but with pride, all you do is put a rainbow on and have bland policies and say nothing when we advocate for queer policies in a political way, you don't have to adapt to those changes, because right now you just a rainbow, as they identify with policies? |
</poi> |
I think you're conflating not being over the top but being bland, with the political activism that you push for. It is not true that just because you make pride something that is more palatable to people, that is a better optical appearance, you forgot those things, as long as those are stonewalls forgotten. We write t... |
</mo> |
<gw> |
You probably do have realized that in this debate, every team has a completely different characterization of this demonstration, and that probably to have to adjudicate the debate in which characterization is more like realistic and fits better with the world. And Tony told you that these demonstrations are completely ... |
First of all, as Antonio told you this demonstration has been organized by the left wing parties since the beginning of the movement, since the 60s or 70s in which this demonstration has started to take place. The organization were part of the left wing party, which were the only one which has sent the gay people. So t... |
Secondly, because within the political parties of the left there is groups which are supporting the LGBT movement. I mean, in the left wing parties, you have groups of LGBT people. And with some exceptions, in most of the red wing parties, for example, in Spain or in German or in Italy, gay people does not organize wit... |
The most important is that you are excluding 50% of the population, 50% of the TB movement for this demonstration, as this is like a biological thing. You have, like 50% of the people, which is from breaking which are not represented, but that demonstration, they feel that they are too extravagant, that they are left, ... |
Now as the counterfactor, what we think that the queer demonstration is going to be, as we say it's going to be, what in the hell is the incentive for a job? For some reason, as open say, violent gay supporter of or fighting for their rights, going to change the demonstration if they are already controlling the mainstr... |
Now second point here why we think that we have more change in the long term in our side of the what they say is that because we have politicians and all the stuff there, we have more awareness and more money, and therefore we change more things. First of all, I think that this is kind of Uber impacting. We think that ... |
<poi> |
Look, in the eyes of a conservative person,the extreme left will always be associated with an antagonistic march like you did, because you support your policy. If you're a conservative person, which March would you genuinely go to? One is associated , or one that's not associated? |
</poi> |
I think I explained for all my speech why the one which is associated with extreme left is the the mainstream one, the strong war or whatever one, because it's the one which is controlled by the left for the entire for the entire period of time. |
So as I was saying, the way that the red wing parties are going to change things if they think that the voters are okay with that, and that will happen if the gay voters of these platforms are engaged with the LGT movement. They feel comfortable going through demonstration. They feel that they have also any space withi... |
</gw> |
<ow> |
By end of this debate, I'm genuinely unconvinced that any of the other three teams have a path forward to end the oppression of the gay body, because Opening Government wants messaging without any degree of being able to implement that messaging in real politics. Open opposition knows that the killer movement is incred... |
This was the primary claim that we got from the opening government team. And the clip that we got here was that you cannot antagonize straight allies and corporations in mainstream pride as a consequence of these corporations funding you and straight allies being a part of the movement. I want to note a few different t... |
The second thing that I want to point out is that significant numbers of corporations are actively looking for queer messaging. This is a buyer's market. These are people. Who are gay, billionaires like Peter Thiel are relatively liberal. Companies like RuPaul drag race, all these different types of organizations are p... |
The third thing that I want to point out is that there's a massive tension within the opening government case, because on the one hand, they say companies don't want to endorse something that is controversial and because they're conservative, but on the other hand, they also say that these are crazy sex, crazy parties,... |
Secondly, on inclusion, we have two different claims about safe spaces. I'm going to deal with the opening government claim, first, the claim from open government, sure |
<poi> |
the queer liberation March and expressions of pain better highlight at suffering the population than a hemistic party, and give politicians clear issues have to deal with your version of pride observes issues from non listed tokenistic contributions with useless money for alcohol. |
</poi> |
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