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**Jerod Santo:** "Markdown format." \[laughter\] I don't have a bassy voice-- |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Did you say the word "format"? |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] Yeah, "Markdown format." Is everybody getting excited already? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Everybody's excited. |
**Jerod Santo:** So you're advocating for a markdown format... |
**Olivier Lacan:** Yup. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[16:04\] The first thing you have -- okay, the title; we'll get past that. But for each changelog entry you have a version number, a well-formatted date, which you have a section all about dates in here... Then you have four sections: Things added, Things deprecated, Removed, and Fixed. |
In this example you give, your Added has three bullet points, but they're hyphenated, the things added. Then your Deprecated, Removed and Fixed are all empty, but you don't just leave them empty, you actually explicitly state "Nothing." |
Can you just go through the thought process behind this format and why you decided and think that this is -- I know you say it's not the truth at the bottom at the page, but it's just something that you're advocating that people use. |
**Olivier Lacan:** There's a ridiculous amount -- so this is where we get really nerdy, because every single thing you said, I had thoughts going "Okay, I have to explain this." |
The date format is a big deal, because Brits are super -- this is great, I hope you have Brits listening; I'm French though... This is igniting a war; we've got generations of war between us... Brits have the stupidest date format. They put the number, they say 8 April 2014, and they pronounce it "April 8th." It's just... |
Americans have an also stupid way to write dates where they put the month, and then they put the day, and then they put the year... Just because, you know, why have a logical order ever? |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, I thought ours was truly the worst, but you're saying that the Brits' is actually worse than ours. |
**Olivier Lacan:** It is actually worse. So this is what I do - I basically anger people, and then I say, "No, let's hate on these guys more." \[laughter\] |
**Jerod Santo:** You're just tearing us down over our date formats. |
**Olivier Lacan:** Right. I'm just making people -- it's a strategy. Hear me out. So the last one is the slightly international date format, which to us is the MySQL database format, where you put the year, then the month, then the day. It makes more sense, because 1) it's sortable, easily; if you have files in a folde... |
But the other reason is you can figure it out because it's different enough from the English and the American one that you can say "Okay, this is clearly the year, and why would the next thing be the day?", unless you really have the backwards American way of thinking, and you actually inverse that thinking. |
**Jerod Santo:** Let me just say - I use this format personally: yyyy-mm-dd. I use that on everything. It's always just considered the nerdy format (I don't know if it's the international format) because only nerds would use this; people who think about "Oh, it sorts naturally in a directory", which I do think about...... |
**Olivier Lacan:** You use that on checks? |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. You put the date on the check and you use it. |
**Olivier Lacan:** Wow. |
**Jerod Santo:** I like consistency, so I'll just use the same everywhere... |
**Olivier Lacan:** I'm gonna do that. |
**Jerod Santo:** ...I'm not gonna be like "Well, this is my check context, so I'm gonna switch to American date format" - no, I'm just gonna use the nerdy version. And people here in America - they get mad at me for this. \[laughter\] They're like, "What?! What's up with your date format?" I'm like, "It makes the most ... |
**Olivier Lacan:** Okay. Let's start a revolution. See, you have to make another website, a single-page website like this where you talk about "Let's keep a date format", or I don't know what you wanna call it, but basically that. |
\[20:00\] The things that scares me in what you say is I didn't realize, being outside of -- well, having grown up outside of the American culture mostly, I don't know what's super-weird. I just know what doesn't make sense to me... But there are things that I say or do that shock people and that surprise me, because i... |
Anyway, so the date is one super-important thing. The other part actually is... It's like Heading, so the first heading -- and this is something I've been criticized for and I'm completely okay discussing it, because as you mentioned, it's not the truth, it's just an idea for a convention; we can agree or disagree, we ... |
But the first heading - markdown has pound signs for headings, so header 1 is Changelog. The title is "changelog" just because what if you discovered this file and you have no idea what it is? If you're a beginner to open source and you jump into this text file that says "changelog", "What is this...?" You see Changelo... |
Then I use header level 2 for every single version, because -- well, one of the reasons is that GitHub added I think GitHub Flavored Markdown, the auto-linking anchors on these headers... Yes. Which is great, because that means you can automatically -- if it's parsed as markdown, you can link to the release by clicking... |
And finally, there's the third one, which is the groups of changes - the added changes, deprecated changes, and stuff like that. And the dashes are simply because now -- I think it's a GitHub Flavored Markdown format, but a dash makes unordered list item, so it just looks better... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I think that's markdown unanimously that they did the star or the dash... |
**Olivier Lacan:** You're right, absolutely. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** ...because so many people use that in email format and whatnot, so the idea was to translate from like the normal way of writing words to something you can actually mark up without trying to. |
**Olivier Lacan:** Which is a great idea. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. Or I guess mark down. |
**Olivier Lacan:** Right. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, I didn't realize that the dash also did unordered list; I thought that was just the asterisk. |
**Olivier Lacan:** Yeah, so I'm the guy on open source projects that actually goes and submits pull requests through your readme, and then sneakily changes all the stars to dashes. \[laughter\] I'm that guy. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Your PR is just nothing but stars to dashes... What's up with that change? |
**Olivier Lacan:** No, I sneak it in with other things, so people go "Alright, sure... I guess... Whatever" and they just merge. |
**Jerod Santo:** Do you ever get your PRs rejected and be like "This was a great change, except for the whole stars to dashes thing you tried to sneak in there..."? |
**Olivier Lacan:** So now that it's public, it will happen... But no, it's never happened. Actually, my evil plan worked every single time. |
**Break:** \[23:08\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Another thing I like about this format too is that -- you know, there's a debate in your GitHub issues for this, to some degree, at least talking about what the format should be. I think there were some other sort of unusual formats that you kind of balked at, and I think it's a closed issue right n... |
I think markdown reads well because you can read it as you would not marked up to HTML, you know? |
**Olivier Lacan:** Precisely. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** But you can read it just like it would be, without reading HTML. It's just easier to read on its own, but at the same time if the parser is smart enough, it can take that same format, and like you said earlier, put the anchor tags on certain headings and allow you to deeplink within the same documen... |
**Jerod Santo:** HTML-ized? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, no matter how you get the file, whether it's the dumb version text or the smart version parsed, you get the same user experience... Or at least a similar user experience. |
**Olivier Lacan:** Right. So it's portable, basically. |
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