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Some people will build in ways where they can signal the application to change its verbosity for the logging levels; some people will do Canary builds with additional logging in them... There's just a variety of ways you can attack debugging a problem. |
The other issue becomes when you have errors - is it a systemic issue that continues to happen and plague the rest of the system, or is it just an anomaly? You're going to occasionally have bugs; it doesn't matter how much logging you put in there, you're probably never gonna figure out why that happened. If you can't ... |
**Dave Cheney:** Exactly, and once that's happened, it's too late; the horse has bolted. To come back to errors - you've mentioned errors. Why I think Go is so successful for being a language for writing server software - and this is really where we're seeing it; it's branching out into other things as well, but its ho... |
Don't worry about the happy path, think about what happens when this fails. I think that is what is making Go really successful for writing server software, because you can't just write the code in this linear "Oh, everything's gonna work, and that throws cause on the function declaration is gonna take care of any prob... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** And if people are really annoyed about checking, doing the if statement all the time to check the errors, they can use your errors package, right? I love the way you made it so you can just return the error, and if it's nil it's nil, and if not, the message is there, and that's it. |
**Dave Cheney:** Yeah. |
**Erik St. Martin:** \[59:47\] I know when I first got into the language, the kind of verbose error handling was kind of annoying too, because I came from languages that had exceptions, and then you start to realize it does make a lot more sense there. But I think it's just a change of viewpoint. It's a half glass empt... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** I think another corollary to that is the idea of interfaces in Go. I was thinking through this today, and I think there's a good parallel between the way you think about interfaces in Go and the way you handle errors in Go, versus other languages. With Go interfaces, your modeling behavior and you d... |
Just using embedding and composition in Go feels so light and so much better, but it's hard for people who come from object-oriented languages to catch that feeling. Again, it's one of those things where it takes everybody some time to adjust to the new features that they're not used to, before they can embrace them. |
**Dave Cheney:** I agree, and this is really the open question that I had from my talk. Every episode of this podcast, every time you interview somebody, everyone at some point in the podcast says, "Oh geez, you should have seen my first code... I used so many channels and I did them wrong." Everyone knows that lesson ... |
It becomes really subjective and not particularly useful to say, "Be careful, don't use too many channels." Where is the design language that says, "Where is a channel appropriate, where is it not?" Those kinds of things are missing in the general discourse of Go. Or if not missing, not emphasized. It's not things that... |
Erik talked about it, the way that in the Ruby community there was this focus on design. People talked about the language design, always; those were the kinds of things that you would talk about at conferences. Where is that language, that discourse in Go? That's really the open question from my talk, I think. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** I'm very glad to say that I'm starting to see a major shift towards that conversation with you and Ben Johnson and Mat Ryer. Mat Ryer [wrote a blog post](https://medium.com/@matryer/line-of-sight-in-code-186dd7cdea88) about his talk at Golang UK, talking about "Check your errors first, and then d... |
Going back to what you were saying about this conversation about design, when I started doing Go, when I was meeting people who were experts, I would ask "How did you learn?" and "Trial and error" would be the answer, and on and on again people would say "Trial and error." Now I see that people are thinking, "Well, let... |
\[01:04:14.01\] Katrina's talk at GopherCon in Denver had a lot to do with this concept of "Let's pave the path for people to jump in and not go through the hassle of trial and error. Let's have educational material..." And now a lot of people are talking about design. I sense that there is a shift, and I think that it... |
**Dave Cheney:** Yeah, Katrina's talk was fantastic, and the thing that we should all in this podcast remember is that we are the success story, we are the ones that didn't quit, we are the ones that didn't get so lost, that didn't make such a mess that we couldn't figure it out and we just gave up. We are actually the... |
As a beginner, you have no context to judge yourself, to judge your progress like that. Katrina's talk was really important to remind us all of... We are the success story, we are the ones who persevered and learned the language, even through trial and error or just reading the right example at the right time, that put... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Yeah, good point. |
**Erik St. Martin:** I think we are actually about overtime, so I think we're gonna skip over talking about news and projects this episode, as much as we would love to go forever. Can we do like a 12-hour podcast? \[laughter\] |
**Brian Ketelsen:** With Dave I think we can, yeah. |
**Erik St. Martin:** So I think we can skip into \#FreeSoftwareFriday, and then we'll kind of close out the show. As always, Brian, do you want to kick this thing off? |
**Brian Ketelsen:** I do. I spent a whole lot of time playing with rsync this week. It's old school, UNIX tools, but I just can't like without rsync, so big shout out to the people who keep rsync fast and awesome and safe. I love rsync, thank you. |
**Dave Cheney:** I think that is Jeremy Allison - is that his name? The same people that make Samba make rsync. Maybe I'm remembering it completely wrong, but there is a strong correlation between the two, I think. Using rsync and SSH can pretty much move the world. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Yeah, and I think I did this week. \[laughter\] |
**Dave Cheney:** Do you want me to go next? I have one. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Sure. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Yes. |
**Dave Cheney:** Somebody gave a shout out to AG a couple of weeks ago on the podcast... |
**Erik St. Martin:** That was me. |
**Dave Cheney:** I have one better, because it's called pt - the Platinum Searcher, and it's written by a Japanese Gopher; I'll put the link in the show notes. Pt is way better than Ack, way better than AG... I use it every single day. I'm not a big one for editor integrations; I have a very Spartan environment, so for... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** \[01:08:06.06\] I am so looking forward to installing that. With this endorsement... I use Ack all the time; also not on my editor, just on the terminal, and this is sounding like a lot better, by the description. I'm just dying to try it. |
**Dave Cheney:** It has all the features of Ack and AG, of skipping over temporary files and .gits and things like that, but it's written in Go. |
**Erik St. Martin:** I'm trying to think of who it was, too... Somebody had just mentioned... I think it was Harald Ringvold maybe, in the GoTime FM Slack. Just before the show he pointed that out to me too, like "Have you seen this?" So I definitely need to install it. You said it's basically feature-compatible with t... |
**Dave Cheney:** Pretty much... I mean, I don't know what the features are; I just use pt. My two requirements are pt and pt-l. Pt-l gives you the names, and you pipe them through Vim and edit your files. It's written by Monochromegane, a Japanese Gopher. I saw her presentation on this in 2014, I think, the first time ... |
**Erik St. Martin:** That's awesome. Plus, we can contribute when we find new usage. But I probably have a similar workflow to you. I basically AG a directory looking for what I'm looking for and then just open it in Vim. I don't do a lot of editor integrations and stuff like that; I'm just pretty comfortable with havi... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** I just installed this and it's beautiful. |
**Erik St. Martin:** You're ahead of us. So how about you, Carlisia? |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Well, I recently got a job doing Go full-time, and I was working on a new project and going through the phase of defining and designing, and recently I got full-on coding. My shout out today - we've mentioned it before - is Sourcegraph. I can't not tell you how much faster I grep things. If I'm o... |
I've learned a hundred times faster, just learning what I'm looking at and also learning Go at the same time, because of course, I see the patterns. Another shout out is Go it self - I love that. The Go code that I see on people's libraries, they look pretty much the same as the Go code that I'm writing. The consistenc... |
**Erik St. Martin:** Awesome. Mine this week is a little off, but I haven't been using a lot of new programming tools over the past couple weeks, and I don't think everybody wants to keep hearing old stuff, so I'm gonna shout out to Asciidoctor, which is asciidoctor.org. Typically, I'm a markdown person, but I haven't ... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** \[01:11:57.12\] Nice. |
**Dave Cheney:** Yeah, I use it all the time. I actually write all my talks long form; I actually write everything I want to say, and I generally do before I then transpose it into Keynote or something like that. For one, I need to know how many words I've got, and Keynote won't tell you that. I tend to write up the wh... |
For me, that's so much better than using a Google Doc, because to use a Google Doc you've gotta be online, whereas this is just a text file, and you can edit it wherever you are. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Nice. |
**Erik St. Martin:** And we can just use Vim. A nice little guard file, updates the PDF alongside of it... And then I get to give a second shout out to Afrin, for preventing me from sniffling this whole show. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** \[laughs\] Is that open source? |
**Brian Ketelsen:** No, it's not open source, and you probably have to show ID at the counter of the pharmacy to get it these days. |
**Erik St. Martin:** The ingredients are listed on the back, so it's somewhat open source, right? \[laughter\] I guess the algorithm to combine them is not existent, but that's close. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Yeah, that reminded me of Katrina's talk again... \[laughter\] You have the ingredients, but you don't know how to put it together. |
**Erik St. Martin:** \[laughs\] That correct mixture ratio... Alright, so as much as I would love to continue on, especially having Dave on the show, we've had a lot of interesting conversations and I think way more that could be had, I think we are way over time, so this will be a nice long episode. I definitely want ... |
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