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**Peter Bourgon:** Right. What we did was an extensive, comprehensive survey of the states of the ecosystem, both in Go and in other languages. We consulted with all of the authors about the pain points that they experienced and if they wanted to represent their user's experience, and what things they found to be super... |
Each of these questions has a wide variety of possible answers, so we enumerated all those as best we could. Then, with this "survey" of possible use cases and design space points and user stories and all these things, we winnowed it down to what we considered to be the bare minimum usable, covering 90% of the use case... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** From where you stand now Peter, what do you see as a possible timeline for this coming together as a production-ready tool for vendoring? If it goes on the path that it's going now; of course, if people say it needs to change, then who knows...? But if it goes on the path that's going now and the... |
**Peter Bourgon:** \[40:05\] That's a great question. My hope at this point is that we're gonna have a usable prototype by the end of the year timeframe, and luckily it's going to be a tool that you can kind of go get independently of anything else, and you can kind of try it out. We're gonna have a period of use, I gu... |
At this point I hope interested members of the community are going to be filing issues and potentially even PRs on it, and then the goal, at least as I understand it now - and this is all subject to change, of course - would be that this dependency management tool would become packaged into the Go tool, so a separate G... |
**Erik St. Martin:** I think the nice thing about it being in the Go tool is that it becomes the canonical thing people use. Because that's the hardest part, right? Once this thing it's released, it's just another one in the sea, and then we're still gonna have the issues of "I'm using that tool, but I'm vendoring thin... |
**Peter Bourgon:** Exactly... Scott has just pasted in the Slack channel... \[laughs\] The problem here is exactly the number of competing standards. The usability problems introduced by having all these tools is exactly what needs to get fixed, and in a lot of ways that's really hard, because you don't want to -- we'v... |
You really do need the single standard, and we're gonna do our best to make that transition period as easy as possible. There's a couple of options for that. We can read the most popular existing file formats and kind of do the transition automatically, or we can have a transition tool that's packaged beside the dep ma... |
**Erik St. Martin:** Even if there's a secondary process that I have to download to fix my vendor directory... I don't care that you use this, because I can fix that, and just kind of run something that reads their vendor file and flattens it out onto yours, or however that works. |
**Peter Bourgon:** ...for example, yeah. |
**Erik St. Martin:** The hard part too here is I think we're critical on the Go team, too. I think it was naive, but I also kind of understand where they were coming from, where it's not really a language thing, it's an ecosystem thing. But I also argue that there's many things in the language that were brought in that... |
**Peter Bourgon:** \[43:46\] Arguably the great lesson of the Go experiment is that you can't really treat the language and its tooling ecosystem in isolation. They are really part of a package that developers buy into as a whole, and I think that that understanding has really helped Go, and the commitment to gorename,... |
**Erik St. Martin:** Are you familiar with the Rails world? |
**Peter Bourgon:** Only peripherally. |
**Erik St. Martin:** I wonder how much of what everybody loves about Go is a similar thing that people loved Rails for, which is that convention over configuration thing. There's just this canonical way of doing things, and that makes it much more approachable. You're not looking at 50 ways of doing this, and the parad... |
**Peter Bourgon:** It's certainly what attracted me to the language early on. And what kept me away from Ruby - less so Rail, more so Ruby - is that in Go (and not Ruby) there's only one way to do something. Those limits, paradoxically, give me the freedom to worry about the problem domain and not about my method of ex... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Yeah, I love that. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Scott, you're firing shots on the GoTime FM channel... Aliases! \[laughs\] Hand grenade! |
**Scott Mansfield:** Yeah... There was one point that I wanted to bring up that I thought was very good in the document that is out there now for comment. The idea of keeping this very restrictive, but also just simply dropping some of the more complex requirements I think is going to work out the best, because keeping... |
**Peter Bourgon:** I totally agree. It's very easy to come up with a convoluted workflow that breaks any tool you can imagine, and all you have to do is stamp a "Required" on that workflow, and suddenly you're back to square zero. What do you do? |
**Erik St. Martin:** And I think some of it comes from -- you know, all of us come from different languages that already had package managers that worked a particular way, so you're influenced by the idioms that you used programming in the language. I think that's where we see some of these patterns from all of these d... |
I think the perceived use cases come from that, too. The language itself is the same way. You're like, "Oh, well I need this language feature because I need to be able to do this", but really there's another way it can be done if you view it from the language perspective. So it's kind of the same way here. We have to t... |
Scott, did you wanna talk about aliases, or you're just throwing jokes here? \[laughter\] |
**Scott Mansfield:** No, that's purely me trolling... I really don't wanna talk about aliases. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Nobody wants to talk about alias. \[laughter\] |
**Peter Bourgon:** Have you talked about it yet on the program? |
**Erik St. Martin:** There was an episode I think we vaguely talked about it... Brian is very adamant that he does not want them. |
**Peter Bourgon:** Good. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Scott, you're supposed to be playing the part of Brian today, so you should be like, "NO ALIASES!" |
**Scott Mansfield:** Okay... NO ALIASES! They're horrible. I really don't understand why, but I've been told so, so... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** \[48:05\] That ship has sailed, you guys. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Yeah, I think it's just because people think it creates kind of like a footgun. It's not that it's inherently bad, it's just... The language has done a very good job at shielding people from creating monstrosities, you know? |
**Scott Mansfield:** You give me a day and a laptop and I can create the worst Go code you've ever seen, so I don't really need aliases to do that. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Challenge accepted! \[laughs\] I wanna see that, too. I actually wanna see everybody's worst Go code, like what is the worst thing you can come up with. The most racey, ugly-looking, Perl one-liner... \[laughs\] That's something I don't miss. Did anybody work in Perl in previous lives? |
**Carlisia Thompson:** No, not me. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Peter, you wouldn't remember, right? \[laughter\] |
**Peter Bourgon:** I remember one of the first programming books I got was like "CGI Perl" or something like this... I think that was an O'Reilly book, and I think I got about 15 pages in until I gave up pretty quickly. |
**Erik St. Martin:** I don't miss the days where there was competition with like, "Look, I wrote an IRC client in one line of Perl!" You're like, "But why?!" |
I worked with a guy and he used to joke it was a write-only language; you didn't modify Perl, you just wrote a new one. |
**Peter Bourgon:** Exactly. You know who's using Perl all the time? Damian at booking.com, they're still a Perl shop. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Yeah, they're doing I think OOP Perl, though. I'm pretty sure that people have probably learned their lessons by now, that you don't write applications in one line; that's just not reasonable. |
So a big project of yours is Go Kit, and I wanna get into that. But first, I think we have our second sponsor break, so everybody get a drink. Well, not everybody listening, but the people on the show. |
**Break:** \[\\00:50:02.02\] |
**Erik St. Martin:** Okay, so Go Kit... We've started out with microservices, now we're gonna circle back. So along the lines of your microservices love, the past couple of years now you've been working on a project called Go Kit, which has seemed to really be taking off, and I wanted to talk a bit about that. |
**Peter Bourgon:** Sure... So let me give a quick background, I suppose. Go Kit was born when I was at Soundcloud. We had been doing a lot... We were very heterogeneous in terms of languages, very polyglot, and Go had great representation at the beginning. When we were growing, we realized in order to achieve economies... |
\[52:01\] Another language was Go, and a lot of people really wanted to use Go, and I was kind of chief among them. But when we started deploying a lot of services, we realized that there wasn't a Finagle equivalent; we would have had to write our own circuit breakers and rate limiters and safety stuff, and load balanc... |
**Erik St. Martin:** Do you have a lot of users in production with it now? Do you know? |
**Peter Bourgon:** Yeah, definitely some... Although this is sort of the thing with open source projects; I haven't tried to do an official survey or asked people to reach out to me yet, but it's really difficult for me to get a sense of who's actually using it, because I guess if I do my job right and my documentation... |
I guess one frequent contributor is this fellow by the name of Bass van Beek, and he's using it extensively in his game startup. He's helped me a lot with distributed tracing and the gRPC transport side of things, and a couple of other things besides... And there's definitely -- I'm aware of probably about a half dozen... |
**Erik St. Martin:** That's the difficulty, right? And that's kind of like why we do our \#FreeSoftwareFriday thing. You usually only hear from people when they're having a problem. If it's saving the world, they're like, "Yeah, you know..." |
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