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Like you said, you're just throwing it out into the sea when you're complaining on Twitter and you hope that somebody who has the means to solve that problem for you sees it. |
**Jaana Dogan:** I think we can also solve this like... The core team doesn't have bandwidth to think about these issues by just sharing the responsibility with other groups, and naturally just because there will be a group that is assigned to think about these problems, I do believe that the feedback loop will be more... |
**Erik St. Martin:** I think another thing that you wanted to talk about was why languages succeed and fail, but before we do that, let's talk about next sponsor, Linode. If you head over to Linode.com/gotime, you can get your very own Linode up and running in seconds. |
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So you were talking about language succeeding and failure mostly due to communication? |
**Jaana Dogan:** Before we get in there, I've seen something on the Slack channel... Aaron is saying "Working code speaks louder than workgroups to start serious conversation." I partially agree with this, but I partially disagree. I think experimentation or community-driven projects have a really small scope. You cann... |
\[52:15\] I think the idea behind workgroups is to see what else is there. Otherwise, it's just easy to execute working code and solve a small aspect, but I don't really believe that working groups -- the main goal behind working groups is solving specific problems in its own small scope. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** One thing to keep in mind when you bring up these concerns is that you're looking at it from the perspective of scaling the use of Go. We are relatively new, maybe not so new anymore - I don't even know if we should say we're so new - and we are trending upwards in terms of adoption, and your con... |
From what you said, I think having working groups or special interest groups is a great idea. It will not hurt to have feedback, and I think it can only be used for improvements. |
**Jaana Dogan:** In the past months I've received so much feedback about how we should communicate more of a roadmap, internals and things... From a programmer's perspective, he would like to understand what is going on and what the future will be like, because he designs things in a particular way so that the design i... |
I do believe that having workgroups will increase this communication with the core team and the community members a lot, because given that they will be involved maybe in design and what is coming up next, they will be able to receive more canonical information and they can share it from there, rather than reverse engi... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** I think the biggest benefit that I see from this idea is having a group of people that is a buffer between the language team and the community. Obviously, the language is only going to be so big, and to me, obviously, they should be participating in important decisions as far as the language and ... |
But having people one off proposals and talking to different people here and there, and people change, and rotate, and they don't really know where people are coming from with suggestions, I can only imagine how hard that must be for the language team to participate in this constantly revolving set of people who are ap... |
**Jaana Dogan:** \[56:30\] Yeah, I think it's impossible to scale if you are an engineer working on the core team, to engage as much as you write code. They are already really productive, and you cannot really ask them to expose themselves to all these channels to gather feedback and understand what is going on. I woul... |
**Cory LaNou:** I also think the special interest groups are really cool because a lot of times I think when people are working at their projects and they're looking at Go and saying, "Oh, if it could do this, or if I could have this from it, that would help my project", but they maybe don't think that it applies to th... |
**Jaana Dogan:** I totally agree. I think for really high-level things or brainstorming, people see it like it's just like absurd to talk to the team, or explain a little bit of their ideas, because nothing is finalized. People are just seeking for some sort of community to build on their initial ideas, and the workgro... |
**Erik St. Martin:** I think it triggers ideas too, though. The special interest groups for Kubernetes will do weekly meetings and will do demos; when you take part in these, you'll see something demo-ed, and it will trigger your own ideas where you can contribute feedback then. I know there's been scenarios where I've... |
And not everybody's accustomed to reading the draft proposal form of things, so they just don't participate. There's very few people who go in and read those drafts and then comment on them; most people wanna see working code, they wanna see a demo, they wanna have verbal discussions about it. |
**Jaana Dogan:** Yeah, I totally agree. I think a demo is the only way to communicate just a little prototype, but nobody is going read your proposal written in a very formal way, with no visualizations. So I do agree that meetings are awesome. |
**Erik St. Martin:** We'll call this one the first one. |
**Jaana Dogan:** Yeah, I guess so. This is the workgroups that actually thinks about the workgroups and comes up with a strategy on how they should work. |
**Erik St. Martin:** And now we're getting meta... We've got a workgroup for a workgroup. \[laughter\] |
**Cory LaNou:** Now, if you had your pick, I'm curious what would be the top one or two workgroups you would like to see? |
**Carlisia Thompson:** That's a great question. |
**Jaana Dogan:** \[59:55\] I don't wanna really reveal my ideas, but I think that there are things that are really obvious to me, such as... Well, this is not entirely engineering related - the first one is a docs group. Our current blocker is documentation, and explaining conventions and things. I do not really believ... |
**Cory LaNou:** Yeah, a big +1 to that. I'm a huge fan of a docs group. |
**Erik St. Martin:** See, every time somebody says "docs" I think "dox", like publishing private information about people. \[laughter\] We just get together and dox people... \[laughs\] |
**Jaana Dogan:** Is it my accent? |
**Erik St. Martin:** No, even when Cory said it. Both ways, it's pronounced the same. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** You're saying it has the same... What's it called...? |
**Cory LaNou:** Phonetically... |
**Erik St. Martin:** Yeah... So I think we're actually running a little over time. Did you guys want to talk about any projects or news that are out? One of the biggest ones I saw was Netflix released their new Chaos Monkey, which was really cool, and that's all written in Go now. Do you do chaos testing at all, any of... |
**Cory LaNou:** No, I think I'm just gonna wake up one day and go to our cloud team and tell them I enabled it, and see what happens. \[laughter\] I'm sure they'll appreciate it. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Just let them be surprised. I think it's a really fun way of testing, the first time I saw that. It's really creative; you should assume that everything dies. |
**Jaana Dogan:** Yeah. At Google we have this sort of thing once in a while, and everything is just like literally off. I'm not participating anymore, so I'm so happy... But if you have something in production, good luck. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Yeah, I do chaos testing - it's called release to production. \[laughter\] |
**Erik St. Martin:** I don't often test my code, but when I do, I do it in production...? |
**Cory LaNou:** Always. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Always. |
**Erik St. Martin:** The chaos is actually happening in the office, not in production. |
Yeah, I mean, most people don't really test that way, so it was an interesting paradigm a number of years ago when it was released. I just found it really interesting that they completely rewrote the Chaos Monkey in Go. I think Scott Mansfield had mentioned that when he was on the show, that they were working on it, so... |
A related project that I actually ran into over the week was Pumba. It's chaos testing for Docker, which was interesting. It has a lot of like the "kill your container and restart it", "send random signals at the process" and things like that. Another interesting aspect of it was that it allows you to emulate network c... |
**Cory LaNou:** Does it come with a preconfig for AWS network situations, so you can basically replicate what AWS is for you right away? \[laughter\] |
**Erik St. Martin:** \[01:04:04.12\] There's just a "AWS = true" flag. I'll drop the link in the channel for anybody who's listening live. I ran across it late last week, and I haven't had a chance to play with it yet, but it looked really cool. And we know 1.7.3 came out, and I think there was just a few bug fixes the... |
Anybody else ran across any interesting projects this week? |
**Carlisia Thompson:** I don't have anything this week. |
**Cory LaNou:** I don't have any projects, but I did wanna shout out to some community people. About a year ago I moved back to the Midwest as most of you know, and I started some meetups in Chicago and Minneapolis, because the Go community wasn't on track there. It's been a little bit over a year and the people that h... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** We have a Meetup channel on Slack, don't we? |
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