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Imagine that experience, if someone told you "Download my project, run it on your laptop to kick the tires and when you're ready just give it a Kubernetes flag and the URL of a Kubernetes cluster or a federated cluster", and it will deploy itself across all your clusters and give you a dashboard, a UI where you can act... |
To me, that is something that would move the industry forward and really show people the power of these stacks, with little effort. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** That's insanity. I know what I'm reading tonight. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Alright, I've already got the GitHub repo pulled up. \[laughter\] It's really interesting to start thinking about these things. One of the things that I'm talking about is taking basically deployments of apps, same thing but using third party resources. So taking basically a configuration for what ... |
\[00:44:05.23\\\] And when I don't want that to happen, or I wanna change it in some way, I just update that resource and the cluster adapts. It's really kind of changing the way you look at building applications, and it's really interesting. |
**Kelsey Hightower:** And for our Go developers listening here, this is where the parallel is. Before I started writing code in Go, I was doing mainly Ruby and Python. With those languages, you always have to do a pause before you start thinking about concurrency. Like, "Oh, Ruby - I wanna do concurrency. Alright... Le... |
So anytime you can free up that mental overhead of doing something really hard and it's provided for you, that gives you the courage or time to go and build these more challenging things. I think Kubernetes does the same thing for these large, complex deployments. Now a lot of that is pushed lower, and you can just foc... |
**Erik St. Martin:** I love gaining the Kube control command for stuff, too. That's one of the best things about third party resources like that. Now I'm not asking Kubernetes about pods and replication controllers and things like that, I'm asking it about my thing, you know? Get certs, get streams, get whatever, and I... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** ...or my cable TV channel. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Or my cable TV channel. Technically, it's a group of channels. It's between two and eight, two and ten, and one multiplex screen. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** I can't wait to hear this talk. But first, we do need to talk about a new class on Code School. |
**Break:** \[00:46:14.11\\\] |
**Erik St. Martin:** So Kelsey, what's next for Kubernetes? Anything you're particularly excited about that's coming down the pipe? |
**Kelsey Hightower:** The community, and... You know, we have the Cluster Federation. I was just doing a presentation earlier this morning about making it easy to manage multiple clusters. Today, Kubernetes makes it easy to manage multiple machines; Kubernetes Federation will make it easy to manage multiple clusters, s... |
\[00:48:05.17\\\] That to me is one of the most interesting things, because we want people to feel comfortable having multiple clusters, so that you don't have one big cluster trying to span multiple data centers - that's gonna be a disaster - but enable to make it easy for people to do the right thing. The Kubernetes ... |
**Erik St. Martin:** Yeah, I know for my particular use case it threw away a whole area that I was going to have to build when the Federation stuff came out, because the same kind of problem is multiple data centers spread out across the world, and they're kind of divided up by different groups who maintain them. So th... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Well, speaking of game-changing, let's talk about Kelsey and his live code demos. If there's anybody in the entire history of conferences that has changed the game, it's Kelsey and his off-the-cuff live demo on the screen. I don't know if you had done this before GopherCon 2014, but you shook the wo... |
**Erik St. Martin:** He PXE booted a VM from a container... |
**Kelsey Hightower:** Yeah, to me honestly, I'll tell you guys... I didn't go to college to learn this stuff and so as many other people, and for me to really learn some of these concepts, especially early on, the only way I could actually get it was to get it running, and once you make it work for the very first time ... |
So when I present or get a chance to be given the stage and I really want people to feel it in the shortest amount of time possible, I think the live demo keeps me honest as a presenter to stick to the facts, stick to actually what works, and it also lets everyone else feel and relive that moment when I got it to work,... |
To me the live demo is a requirement for me, just to make sure that I'm doing my job as a presenter, and it's one of my things that I kind of use as a crutch. The live demo is risky, but the payoff seems to be huge. |
**Erik St. Martin:** I'm not gonna lie, last night I was having a conversation with Brian how I could one up the PXE booting by live launching a cable TV stream, but then I had to worry about the bandwidth concerns. Bandwidth at conferences is never good. |
**Kelsey Hightower:** Yeah, but now that the challenge is set, I look forward to you doing it. Now if it fails... \[laughter\] You'd better be ready to handle that. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Generally, presenters get their own hardwired Ethernet access. It's not only Wi-Fi networks. I don't think you can use that crutch, Erik. I wanna see like TV, broadcast from your laptop, on stage... |
**Erik St. Martin:** If I limit it to one program in the stream, I might be able to do it over a hard line. But typically it's a 38/8 stream. |
**Kelsey Hightower:** Anyone out there listening, the way you prepare for a live demo is not the way Erik is doing it right now. If you're gonna do it, you need to do it. You gotta own it. \[laughter\] Pick the use case, and then you do whatever it takes to make it possible. Because at the end of the day - just do it, ... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Gauntlet thrown. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Right. I think that you have a really creative way though of explaining stuff to people, too. It's not just the live demo stuff. This year's GopherCon you did the talk about writing your own scheduler, and using Tetris. That was awesome! You take something that seems complex, right? When most of us... |
I think that's why people love watching your talks - you take things that seem out of reach for people and bring them down to levels that everybody can connect with. |
**Kelsey Hightower:** Thank you. That's kind of the goal there. I try to spend as much time as possible not learning something, but understanding something. And if I feel that I get to the point of understanding that I can articulate it with a video game, then I know I think I've done my preparation job. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** I wanna ask you Kelsey, maybe switching gears a little bit - where would you like to see Go going as a language as it matures, to support a project like Kubernetes which is obviously very sophisticated and very on the larger side of things? I'm interested to know where do you see you could get mo... |
**Kelsey Hightower:** I think we've already had some good support so far. When we would run into issues where we had to stay stuck on, like Go 1.4 and some of the issues with 1.6, I think for us having the Go Team step in and use Kubernetes to actually help find and locate performance issues has been a huge help. Peopl... |
And I think for Kubernetes also package management is highlighted to the next degree. For small projects not really having a one blast solution for dealing with packages, third party dependencies - that can be handled, but in Kubernetes the interdependency chain is pretty large, even the interdependencies for the proje... |
I think our project has a lot of people that were also new to Go. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but we always can benefit from other people of Go expertise, helping refactor, clean up the codebase and also just teaching our community some of the best practices that we've seen over time. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Yeah, and there is a lot of Special Interest Groups too, if there's particular areas of the Kubernetes project that you're interested in. If you're interested in a scheduler, or app deployment, or the networking side of things... I can't even remember all the different special interest groups that ... |
It's a big project with a lot of things that it does, but it's easy to kind of find a little area that you're excited about and get with other people who can help you pick up that particular part of Kubernetes much faster. |
**Kelsey Hightower:** \[00:56:00.20\\\] I should be mentioning too that I'm a very pragmatic person. I'm not going to complain about missing features in the language, like seriously. Go does a really good job of handling 80-90% of the use cases. There's always gonna be a gap from a different language or someone's prefe... |
Were people able to execute the things that they wanted to do? How did Go help them? And in some ways we could talk a little bit about how Go prevents them, but as people are shipping these products, you can see that Go is definitely doing a great job of enabling us to do that. |
**Erik St. Martin:** I think that that's a good point too, working solution over no solution, right? |
**Kelsey Hightower:** Right. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Going back to something you said, Kelsey, I can only imagine the amount of best practices and good practices that you have acquired as a group of contributors to Kubernetes. Is there any chance we can get a compilation of these best practices? I think the community needs something like this. Ever... |
**Kelsey Hightower:** I don't know if we necessarily have all the Go experts and all the best practices. I think the Kubernetes team will tell you first hand. They're learning as they go as well. If you think about it, both projects aren't that old, so I think a lot of people that are contributing to Kubernetes, some o... |
But also on the flipside, since Go is relatively young, we do have some best practices, but even Kubernetes challenges some of those best practices because they may not work for the way we want to do things. So I think there's a big tradeoff and I think a lot of that is starting to be surfaced in some of these conversa... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** One of the things that I had put in the show notes about interesting Go projects and news, which is generally our next segment, but it makes really good sense to bring it up here, is the Go Build Template that Tim Hawkin put out, which is extracted directly out of Kubernetes. The Go Build Template i... |
**Kelsey Hightower:** \[00:59:52.20\\\] Yeah, along those lines I also think our end-to-end testing Kubernetes are magnificent. We have this big distributed system, tons of moving pieces, but we have these very elaborate end-to-end tests that take real versions of our code and from the tree, and we are able to test end... |
So one best practice there would be liberal use of alpha. We are very clear in our API, "This is an alpha feature and is subject to change to API and implementation." Then it moves to beta, and that beta period could be months or even a year if necessary, and then it goes to stable. I think that's a really good practic... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** That is a beautiful concept. I was looking a little bit at your tests for the APIs, I think I saw a little of what you're talking about. It sounds to me it would be a beautiful way to just maintain integration tests, like you're saying, through production environment light in a cluster, and use t... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** One of the training modules that I'm giving in the training class up in Boston next week is how to test real-world applications, and how real Go applications do testing, and there are probably four references to Kubernetes in there, because Kubernetes testing is just top notch. It's really impressiv... |
**Erik St. Martin:** I think a good thing to note too when we think about the idiomatic use of a language in these large projects is I don't think it's right to put a lot of expectations on these big projects to have nothing but idiomatic Go. There's lots of contributors coming from many places with many different back... |
That's just kind of a thought, that while we desire to have these things be there, it's not all that odd to find large projects in a language that don't have the best uses of the language. |
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