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• Challenges in getting different groups (developers, operators, beginners) to participate in the same community |
• The transition from a platform-as-a-service to an open-source project (DotCloud to Docker) |
• Market size and competition in the platform-as-a-service market |
• Customer demand for customization and flexibility |
• The "Lego set" approach of containers (vs. monolithic platforms) and the success of Docker as an open-source containerization platform |
• Docker's creator Solomon Hykes discusses why they chose Go as the language for Docker |
• The team initially used Python, but switched to Go due to its ease of adoption and ability to compile to a binary |
• Soloman cites reasons such as optimizing for contributions, avoiding tribal divisions in devops tooling, and wanting a language that was familiar to many people |
• He also mentions the early days of Docker, where it wasn't an obvious choice and they weren't seeing "hype" around Go at the time |
• The team's decision to use Go was met with some resistance, but Solomon successfully sold the idea to the team by explaining its benefits and potential for growth |
• The development of Docker came out of operational experience with Linux containers. |
• Early adoption of Docker faced pushback from "cranky ops" who were skeptical of new technologies. |
• Solomon Hykes, a C systems engineer, chose Go for Docker due to its combination of compiled language and high-level syntax. |
• Docker's early use of Go was seen as validation of the language, but it is no longer a unique selling point. |
• The lack of external libraries and standard library support for Go were initial stumbling blocks in its adoption. |
• Docker and LXC comparison |
• Standard library vs external libraries use in software development |
• Moby brand name and its relation to Docker |
• Docker community size, diversity, and reaction to the Moby change |
• Goals and implications of the Moby project for open source contributors and users |
• Docker rebranding to Moby |
• Concerns over lack of explanation for changes |
• Solomon Hykes admits making tactical mistakes during transition |
• Focus on two main groups: maintainers and mainstream users |
• Middle population (non-active contributors, non-developers) not prepared for change |
• Criticism from open source contributor community over company-driven vs community-driven approach |
• Reference to Docker 1.12 announcement as an example of discrepancy between project and product behavior |
• The Docker project was moved to a new repository (moby/moby) without changing its codebase, causing confusion among users and developers. |
• The name change caused a "backfire" effect, leading to a temporary disruption in Docker's production shipment and numerous broken dependencies for some users. |
• Solomon Hykes explains that the intention behind the move was to be more open and transparent with the community, but it ultimately backfired due to confusion over the name change and its implications. |
• Moby is being positioned as a separate entity from Docker, allowing for further componentization of the platform and breaking up Docker's monolithic codebase into independent projects. |
• The goal of Moby is to create a modular, open-source container platform where various components can be combined in different ways, promoting collaboration and innovation among developers. |
• Solomon Hykes acknowledges that Docker has learned from its experiences at large scale and has made changes to address issues raised by the community over the years. |
• Challenges of managing a large user base and extracting actionable feedback |
• Need for modular architecture and partnering with others to build missing pieces |
• Plans to simplify development by making tools more accessible and easier to use |
• Switch from REST API to gRPC as the underlying RPC layer for low-level interfaces |
• Roadmap for Docker/Moby API, prioritizing not breaking existing users and adopting new technologies like gRPC |
• Encouraging open source contributions to Moby and addressing concerns about joining a new community |
• Discussing the difficulty of making first-time open source contributions and efforts to make it easier |
• Explaining the name "Moby" and its connection to Docker's mascot |
• Mentioning resources for contributing to Docker, including documentation and events |
**Erik St. Martin:** Alright everybody, welcome back for another episode of GoTime. Today's episode is \#47, and our sponsor for today is Toptal. Today on the show we have myself, Erik St. Martin, we also have Carlisia Pinto - say hello, Carlisia... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Hi, everyone. |
**Erik St. Martin:** And standing in for [Brian](https://twitter.com/bketelsen) today we have Mr. Adam Stacoviak. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Whaddup!? |
**Erik St. Martin:** It's always so great to actually get you to come out from behind the curtains. Anybody who hasn't heard the other episode Adam did -- Adam is one of our producers, and he always hides behind the curtains; we finally got him out. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's right... Like a magician, just waiting, and every once in a while... And Solomon! I had to come out for Solomon, that's why. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Speaking of which... So we are honored today to have our special guest, Solomon Hykes, CTO and founder of Docker. |
**Solomon Hykes:** Hello! Thanks for having me. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Solomon, thank you so much for making the schedule; I know things kind of didn't smooth out there, but man... We've been waiting for this show to take place. [Docker](https://www.docker.com/) is such a huge thing, and obviously everyone has wrapped their brains and minds around it and just ran with ... |
We had you on the Changelog way back on episode 89. I feel like that was (in your own words) 20 years ago, and it kind of feels like it... What do you think? |
**Solomon Hykes:** Yeah, it feels like it was forever ago, and I have a really fun memory of it; it was a lot of fun having that conversation. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** For the live listeners, I'll drop a [link](https://changelog.com/podcast/89) to that show in the chat, so earmark that. It'll be in the show notes too, but earmark it, go check it out... Listen to my (as they said before) young voice, back-in-the-day Adam, I guess... |
**Erik St. Martin:** He linked that episode today in our admin channel and I started listening to it; it's like, wow, you sound young. \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I think it was just less EQ-ed maybe, I don't now... I'm not really sure what it is, honestly. But anyways... Docker! Man... It came from DotCloud, right? |
**Solomon Hykes:** Yup. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** What was DotCloud back then? I don't know if people need to know a full introduction of you, but maybe know that who you are today - you're a CTO, you're the founder of Docker... Take us back to the DotCloud days. Give us some nostalgia. What is something only you know that you could share on a show... |
**Solomon Hykes:** Sure... I don't know if I'm the only one that knows it, but back when we did that Changelog (\#89), I was the founder and CEO of a company called DotCloud, which later became Docker. We had just launched, I think, the Docker project, but we had not yet pivoted to being only the company that supports ... |
Basically, you write the code, you send the code to us and we take care of everything else. We just scale it, run it etc. We did that using containers under the hood, and we used that technology to make things more efficient. A lot of people asked us, "Hey, that's really cool. How do you do it? I don't wanna pay for yo... |
**Erik St. Martin:** \[04:05\] People wanted stuff for free? \[laughter\] |
**Solomon Hykes:** Incredible, I know. And you know, eventually we refined -- to be clear, we didn't invent that tech; we built on top of low-level building blocks of the system, and that was just at a period where Linux was getting better at supporting containers, but it was still a very niche thing to do. When we sta... |
Anyway, we heard the demand enough that we ended up just open sourcing the underlying tech, and that became Docker. Of course, for reasons that are still a combination of mystery and luck (and hard work, as far as I'm concerned) it took off, and we ended up doing only that. We sold the platform-as-a-service business an... |
**Erik St. Martin:** You talk about kind of like the surprise, that it's like that... And credit where credit is due, right? Yes, containers existed in the Linux kernel, but I think Docker made it significantly more approachable, right? Most people who built software for Linux didn't really know about or understand cgr... |
**Solomon Hykes:** Yeah, I mean... The funny thing is containers as is Linux containers existed, they were known, although they were known only to a small, specialized group of people - systems engineers, operators - to build platforms on top of that. But you're right, it was a very obscure thing, and honestly, it was ... |
To this day, I think different people understand the word "container" differently, and it turns out the first definition of the word "container" is a really specialized, niche definition of the word, but shipping containers is something that everyone understands, it's a mainstream term, and really, that's what Docker i... |
Linux containers are really for Docker a feature that we use to deliver something broader, which is shipping containers for your code. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Here's actually an interesting question, I'd love your feedback on this... The thing that I find with the VM's versus containers is that because Docker abstracted away the concept so well, there's a lot of confusion that they're very similar, so you get a lot of people who put TCP dump and random t... |
**Solomon Hykes:** Yeah, it's definitely a general theme for us that different people understand or experience Docker or containers differently; they have different opinions. The Docker community at large has always been a diverse one. In other words, different people expecting different things from containers and Dock... |
\[07:55\] The challenge for us has been to manage that, but honestly, it's been by design from the beginning that we said, "You know what? Not everyone has to agree on everything to benefit from the same tools", and maybe it will make things more interesting for people to have to work out their different definitions of... |
For example, there's a lot of developers and a lot of operators in the Docker community, and as we all know, developers and operators have very different priorities and opinions on things, and that's actually helped. So on the one hand, you have experts - Linux experts, systems engineers - that approach containers in o... |
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