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**Brian Ketelsen:** I think we've talked about Vecty a time or two, but it's definitely the one Gopher.js front-end framework that I understand best, that clicks with me the best. I like Vecty a lot. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Do you know any project that uses it, Brian? |
**Brian Ketelsen:** That's a good question. Now, off the top of my head I don't, but... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Well, it's easy to search on GitHub. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Yeah, I have some GitHub stars... |
**Erik St. Martin:** Or Sourcegraph... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Sourcegraph, there you go. Sourcegraph is the best. |
**Dmitri Shuralyov:** I actually use it in one of my projects. It's called Go Package Store, and it's a project for displaying updates for your Go packages in your GOPATH. Originally, it was this really simple application that would basically stream the HTML from the backend, and the browser displayed it as the HTML wa... |
There was a feature request to add an Update All button, so... I guess people don't wanna click on updating every single Go package individually, they just wanna press that Update All button and it will take care of the rest for them. Now that button exists, and Vecty made it super easy to implement it. |
It's also a package that is kind of in development, so there are still some changes that are being done to it, and they're always looking for ways to improve things or do things better. It's still somewhere in its medium milestones, I'd say, but it's definitely usable; you can start using it today, and it works well as... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** One of my favorite examples of a Vecty app is the [Go Play Space](https://goplay.space/). Oh, it looks like somebody just posted that into our Slack, too. It's at [gtitHub.com/iafan/goplayspace](https://github.com/iafan/goplayspace), and it's like a Go playground that has lots of extra cool features... |
**Dmitri Shuralyov:** Yeah, that's a really great example of it. |
**Erik St. Martin:** So I started our timer a little late, so I think we've got time for probably a couple more things and then we can roll into projects and news. One thing I'd like to -- so at GopherCon this was kind of discussed, and I saw this morning too... So for everybody who doesn't know, while we're sitting he... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Lots of it, yes. |
**Erik St. Martin:** \[32:02\] I saw a couple of posts, especially with regard to [Steve Francia's](https://twitter.com/spf13) [talk about the state of Go](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_FkVIPerzE), and there has kind of been like -- everybody's talking about Go 2 and things like that... What's your take on that? Wh... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** That's a great question, Dimitri... |
**Dmitri Shuralyov:** Yeah, so I definitely have a very specific way in which I enjoy using Go, and that's - one of the ways at least... And that's I appreciate it for its simplicity; it gives you really well thought out basic building blocks and kind of lets you do the rest. That really works well with the way that I ... |
The opposite of what I want is Go to becoming the next JavaScript, completely changing it, adding generics, and all these new features... I don't want to see new features, I just want to see stability and Go continue to be simple. |
It can, of course, address things. Basically, the [talk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6Cw9iCDVcU&t=282s) that [Ross Cox](https://twitter.com/_rsc) gave about how they're planning to get to 2.0 sounds amazing to me. He said that it's not gonna be this major jump, but rather they're gonna work on everything that has ... |
**Erik St. Martin:** Yeah, I really kind of like that approach... That it was very likely that it could be like "Well, 1.20 is now 2.0." |
**Dmitri Shuralyov:** Yeah, and it's not like a big, dramatic change, it's like a smooth transition. That sounds really awesome. I think there is another talk that [Brad Fitzpatrick](https://twitter.com/bradfitz) gave about how as Go matures, it kind of becomes asymptotically more boring, but that is a great thing, and... |
When people think about like "Why not add these features? Why not do this and that?", you have to consider all perspectives, and one of the perspectives that is often overlooked is how this feature will interplay on the tooling; it's how it's going to affect the kind of things you could kind of use Go for, or how you c... |
One of the goals of Go is to be able to create code or projects that scale really well, and that's scale across complexity of the project, scale as more developers work on that codebase... And these are things where you don't necessarily want all the latest fancy features. It's the opposite. You just want it to do what... |
**Erik St. Martin:** It's actually really interesting, because I just left Velocity, and Brendan Burns did a talk - and this was Kubernetes-focused, but it's along the same lines. He talks about the evolution of things, like we have a problem, we invent something to solve the problem, then it takes a while for that to ... |
The takeaway from his talk was really that the way we're building distributed systems even with Kubernetes was like doing it in assembly language. But I think that the point is still kind of the same with Go right now - it doesn't need to be fancy and brand new and all kinds of stuff crammed in there, because then it n... |
\[36:19\] So yeah, to your point, we want it to stay fairly stable, and like "Let's figure out the patterns." |
**Dmitri Shuralyov:** Yeah, absolutely. One of my favorite quotes, because I said that I value simplicity, so there is one quote that I found... It's by Frederic Chopin; he was this Polish pianist from the early 1800s; he said that _Simplicity is the final achievement. After one has played a vast quantity of notes, and... |
I really resonate with that, because when you're working on a project at first, when you don't quite know what it's gonna be or how you're gonna achieve it, you end up doing a whole bunch of things and you try to learn about it, and then once you have it finished, that's when you start to understand it better, and then... |
Similarly with Go, many of the programming language features that it has, they seem to be from decades ago, but that's because it really took all those insights from the languages and the developments that have happened before it, and applied very carefully. |
It's really interesting how that works, but yeah, you don't get to simplicity right away. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** I've been reading a lot of code lately that is written in languages that have _Generics_, and I know that it's been said many times that Go was designed specifically to be a language that's easy to read and understand... And after dealing with these languages - and I'm not gonna mention any names, b... |
**Dmitri Shuralyov:** Yeah, yeah. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** I agree with that. |
**Dmitri Shuralyov:** I've got another example of -- this was a feature request that went into an issue tracker, and I just wanted to share a perspective on how adding something that seemingly makes your life easier may not do that. |
The feature in question was about being able to have build tags for test files, so you could exclude things or include things only when you're testing or not. Like right now it's just \_test, that's the only way, but the feature request was about also being able to use build tags. One of the ways that I really apprecia... |
Some of these restrictions, they basically make it easier to read and understand the code and make certain guarantees about it. So it really helps; the readability is definitely prioritized, and that's one of the best features of Go in my opinion as well. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Yes, I've worked with languages that did _Generics_, and I understand that makes some things simpler; I'm not sure if there are things that can only be achieved with generics, I'm not that knowledgeable, but I am still not convinced that anything that would be simpler by using _Generics_, or easi... |
**Dmitri Shuralyov:** Yeah. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** \[40:05\] I think it's a very personal thing, maybe. |
**Dmitri Shuralyov:** Well, and we have to keep in mind that in programming languages and in software engineering as a whole we always have to make compromises. You can't have absolutely everything, so you have to make sure that you balance what you have and what you don't have, and sometimes it means saying no to thin... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** I think you can have everything. Isn't that what Scala is? \[laughter\] |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Oh, gosh... |
**Dmitri Shuralyov:** Yeah... I mean, actually C++ these days, all the latest revisions, the C++ 17 and the later ones - it's a great example of what happens when you have everything under the sun in it. Sure, you can do all those things, but I wouldn't want to review that kind of code or maintain it. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** You don't have everything, because you don't have the readability. Come on! |
**Dmitri Shuralyov:** Yeah. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Go read some C++... It's like, you have to be like "Let's look at the header to see what this does." |
**Dmitri Shuralyov:** I wanted to measure this... So this morning I ran this program - it measures lines of code, and I saw that I have more than 100,000 lines of Go code in packages that I support daily. These are packages that if somebody has a bug or if it fails to build or something breaks, I would within 24 hours ... |
I feel like the ability to maintain so much Go code - that is enabled by Go itself. I couldn't have done it otherwise. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Amen! |
**Carlisia Thompson:** I think lines of code in Go is misleading, because I think Go is very vertically dense, but if you read ten lines of code in Go, there's very little there. It's just there's a lot that's happening on the vertical space, but there is not a lot that's happening in that vertical space. So 100 lines ... |
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