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**Adam Stacoviak:** \[04:03\] So we want this to be in the pre-show, or somehow meld this into the ending production? |
**Mikeal Rogers:** I thought we were live... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We're live! Okay, fine, we're live! |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah, let's just put that in. |
**Rachel White:** Yeah, you can just edit it in -- |
**Mikeal Rogers:** We'll do it live! |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We'll do it live! So listeners of this particular JS Party, it's a different type of show. Normally you never hear me; I'm just behind the scenes, hoping that everything goes well, and keeping the mice on the spinners, you know? Creating electricity, and stuff... |
**Rachel White:** What does that mean? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You know, the mice race. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** I was thinking fidget spinners. I thought this was like a millennial reference. |
**Rachel White:** Yeah, me too... \[laughter\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, sure, the mice are standing on the fidget spinners, and that's creating electromagnetism, which turns into electricity, powers the house... |
**Rachel White:** Who does that? Is that a real thing? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Where do they do that at? They did that in Neighbors II... The movie. \[laughter\] Remember they were trying to take down the sorority and they pulled the power, and it kept going because they had all the minions in the other room riding unicycles, or whatever? Stationery bikes... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** We definitely are keeping this in. This has to be in. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's how we power the house, you know? So back to this unique thing - basic attention token... It's so foreign to me. Ethereum-based, we've done shows on this - I get it; I understand blockchain, I understand cryptocurrencies, I keep hearing more and more that they're coming of age, they're about ... |
**Rachel White:** The dark web... \[laughter\] I have no idea. I don't know anything about this. I know that libertarians like Bitcoin, and that's about it. \[laughter\] |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah, it depends on what you mean by that. So there's a bunch of different coins now... I think that the primary ones right now are probably Bitcoin, Ethereum and Litecoin... |
**Rachel White:** Dogecoin... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Dogecoin I think is not a major player at this point... |
**Rachel White:** I have 75,000. It'd better... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** You have 75,000 Dogecoins? Those are probably worth something, actually... |
**Rachel White:** No, it's not. It's worth like $20 maybe. It was the only one that compelled me to figure out how to do mining, and I was like "Cool!", and it's worth nothing. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Oh, you mined them... Okay. I mean, I've bought some of them... I think honestly if you're just out with friends and you want to transfer some money between people, it is surprisingly the easiest way to do that currently. If you just have -- what's the app called? Coinbase. If you just have Coinbase ... |
What I was talking about before with -- if you pull it out in cash, you've made capital gains on that money, so there's a lot of incentive to just keep the money being exchanged for other value inside of the system, because it's not being treated as a currency, which is a weird thing to think about - by not treating it... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So what you're saying is when you pull it out -- you take it from... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** You take it out in cash... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[08:02\] Right, when you turn it into your denomination - USD, EUR, or whatever your currency is - you turn it into what we consider maybe real dollars, real cash... At that point you could be subject to capital gains? |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yes. This also translates if you transfer to other property and then sell that property. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right, of course. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** There actually is a company right now doing mortgages in Bitcoin, but if you buy that house, it's -- say you put $5 into Bitcoin really early on, and that's worth half a million dollars. So you buy a half a million dollar house with Bitcoin, with that mortgage, you're good until you sell that house. ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You defer it by buying property. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah, you defer it by exchanging property. So the way that the SEC and the IRS looks at cryptocurrencies is that they are property; they are digital property that you own. They fall under the laws Beanie Babies, and things like that. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That makes sense. That's a good way to put it, because they're still coins, when you think about the name, the term - they're meant to signify currency of some sort; some sort of worth, some sort of value... But they're obviously not physical; you can't touch your Bitcoin. Maybe you could, if you're... |
But they're just simply things you happen to take ownership in - Mikeal, you own yours, I own mine, Rachel you own yours - and once you exchange that value for something else, it translates. So it's like stock in a way too, because you buy it at a certain price, and it may be worth something worth, or potentially less. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Right, but stocks are regulated quite a bit differently and looked at quite a bit differently. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Sure, but the concept domain, that's what I mean by that. Not so much the full-on regulations of stocks, just more like the principle of "You buy it at a certain rate - let's say a dollar - and a month later it goes up and it's now 1,50." So the value could go up or it could go down based on when yo... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** This also happens to your currency in your pocket. There's inflation, there's currency exchanges, and how valuable your currency is when compared to other currencies... I've run into this a lot, because I have a stack of money from other countries, so that when I land in those countries, I can spend ... |
Anyway, so for blockchains there's this whole side of things that's like currency speculation, and it's a lot of ostensibly gambling, like fun gambling, a lot of money flowing into it, and gambling on these exponential increases in the value of these digital coins. But the underlying technology can solve a lot of probl... |
There's an element of transparency and provability without a centralized owner that is really important for a bunch of use cases. What Brave is going after with this basic attention token is essentially the ad market. If you've ever read a bunch about the advertising market, especially online, there's a huge amount of ... |
If you wanna try to solve that, you need something that is provable and has a lot of these elements of transparency and provability baked in... So what they're looking at is this basic attention token. This is a provable way to show that you spent some attention on something. That could be used to prove that you saw an... |
\[12:19\] If you've used the Brave browser, they already have this feature baked in where you can do these micropayments. You can say "Look, I don't wanna deal with advertisements on website, I hate all that kind of stuff, but I do wanna support content creators, so I'm gonna pour $20/month into wherever I spend my tim... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's pretty interesting. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** That ends up being a lot more money, I think, for the users that put money into that system; if you're only putting in $5, the sites that you go to are going to end up making more money than they would from advertising on that. I mean, advertising - you can to reach hundreds of thousands of people in... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. In the upcoming JS Party... We're on that show now, but episode 15, which includes Kyle Simpson - he mentions something about where we place our value add, and we talk a bit about this subject... Not in particular, but how users spend their time on the web; the conversation was basically the c... |
Then also on Request For Commits - you probably remember this - with Brendan Eich, talking about that. He's the founder of Brave, so it would make sense to have this conversation with him back on that show. We talked a bit about the early days of founding the web, and he talked a bit about how it was all advertising-dr... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah. I mean, I think what he's really dealing with and he has had to confront pretty head on is that having this indirect market to found browsers and the web through advertising has also created a huge market for fraud and malware and a bunch of other stuff, and it's only gotten worse, and everythi... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** A lot of people are using Patreon, mostly content creators, and what bums me out is seeing crazily enthusiastic content creators pointing to and basically begging their listeners or their audience, "Support Me!", and you go to their Patreon and they're getting $13/month. Nothing upsets me more than ... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** \[16:20\] I think that when you look at how to fund content -- and we look at those a lot when we're talking about how to fund open source and how to have a sustainability strategy for open source... But the world of content and art is as big and dynamic, and there's not one way to fund things, and t... |
I think that if you were making a couple million dollars a month on Patreon you would probably stop getting new people putting in money, regardless of how much the content costs to make. |
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