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**Quincy Larson:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. Some people make it to over to Oregon, but other people don't. I always die of dysentery. |
**Quincy Larson:** \[laughs\] The hardcore people that don't die of dysentery, yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** No one's turned back. They're like, "That was actually harder than we thought..." You know, some people do that with JavaScript - they get started, they're like "Ooh, this is harder than I thought. I'm gonna turn around." |
So to me, it's obvious that you have free as a core principle, and your foundational aspect, and picking the general foundational things... You say you have an outsized impact, right? Your human count on labor inside of freeCodeCamp, versus the impact - it's outsized, it's huge. And you even cite some of these things i... |
\[20:06\] So when I look at your choices over the years, JavaScript made a lot of sense, right? Python made a lot of sense, web full-stack, web dev... In terms of the things that you're gonna teach, it made a lot of sense, because that's gonna have the biggest impact. And now you're doing data science, or what we call ... |
**Quincy Larson:** Yeah, it was a combination of that and the fact that if you wanna be a software engineer and continue to grow in your role and become more and more advanced, you're probably gonna wanna learn these topics anyway. Again, a lot of it is designed with the notion that after a few hundred (or maybe a few ... |
I just think that if you look at the distribution of jobs, web development is still the central thing. I would include mobile development in web development, because so much of mobile development is essentially just working with APIs, and stuff... People try to put it in its own category, but if you just think of the m... |
So I would say that because half of all jobs are web development jobs, it definitely makes sense to start people there... And then probably right now there are tons of data science jobs, but it pales in comparison to just the demand for web developers. So this is a specialized thing... I wouldn't recommend somebody try... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. So this would be kind of like an upgrade. Are data scientist jobs generally a pay upgrade over a software developer job? Or is it just out of like "My interests have changed" or "I actually would enjoy this more." But am I actually making more money? Just speaking in generalities. |
**Quincy Larson:** I think you'll make a lot more. |
**Jerod Santo:** A lot? |
**Quincy Larson:** I think you'll make a lot more, especially if you learn machine learning \[unintelligible 00:22:32.24\] Plenty of undergraduate students could try to learn some machine learning and then go and potentially enter a hackathon, and stuff... But the real question is how applicable are those models gonna ... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Quincy Larson:** I think there's a reason why most data scientists -- I don't know if it's still most, but historically it's been most of them have Ph.D's; often they'll have math-heavy Ph.D's, and statistics, and things like that... And it's because it is a heavily quantitative field. Data science, in my opinion as ... |
\[23:55\] So we're not gonna be able to give you domain-specific things, but what I tell people generally is try to get a job as a developer and then pivot into increasingly data-centric roles; because if you're at a large company -- I was just listening the other day to the interview with some of the people who were b... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's kind of how it is in (let's say) a lot of careers anyways, over time... Like, today I leverage multiple skillsets I've learned over time. It's the same here. Maybe you go in and you learn basic programming, web developer skills... And 1) you can find a love for it and an appreciation for it, ... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It just doesn't compute that way. Maybe for some it might, but for most people it's probably not gonna make sense. |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. Maybe the ones doing the research and working on the creation of the models and the techniques and the advancement there... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** But what I've learned a lot about machine learning just from listening to and producing Practical AI is the challenges that are out there, and where there's a lot of innovation, and money to be made, and jobs to be had, is kind of what Quincy's talking about, with taking these techniques into a product... |
It resonated with me because I see that there's all these challenges where if you have software development skills, and you can merge them with the data science side, you can sit in the middle and understand things like deployment, like operations, like how to build things that can advance and be maintained and move on... |
**Quincy Larson:** This kind of ties into my general argument about learning as a whole, lifelong learning. I'm a huge believe in lifelong learning. I frequently advocate for people slowing down and just taking a long-term approach. People often think about school as like a four-year block, or a two-year masters, or so... |
**Jerod Santo:** Sure. |
**Quincy Larson:** But I do think that people should stick around and just see how they can pivot within their existing organization and how they can grow within their existing team... Instead of trying to be in such a rush, like "Oh, I've gotta chase this brand new technology that's out." There's a gold rush, right? I... |
\[28:01\] A big part of it is integrating into your routine reading for an hour a day, or working on a very specific skill every day, and kind of getting in a rhythm of doing that... Because sleep -- and I'd actually be very interested in what Adam has to say about this, because I think sleep is so important to how the... |
I've found, for example -- I study a lot of foreign languages. I lived in China for six years and I've been studying Chinese for like 15 years, and then I just recently started learning Spanish... And a huge part of it is, in my opinion, you learn maybe like 30 minutes, you go to sleep, and in your dreams you're kind o... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. |
**Break:** \[29:10\] |
**Jerod Santo:** Do you wanna open up with your -- or I guess I forgot you said "I wanna hear what Adam has to say about sleep", because... |
**Quincy Larson:** Yeah, I do wanna hear it. Adam, if you've got thoughts on that... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** All I have to say is very short... I'm not gonna pontificate by any means, I'm not gonna get on my soapbox... We do have an up and coming episode of Brain Science we're doing some research on, because I'm a huge proponent of it as well, but it is called -- or it might be titled "Sleep is the best me... |
**Jerod Santo:** Hm... I thought laughter was the best medicine. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, you know, we're taking it over... \[laughter\] In sleep. |
**Jerod Santo:** There you go. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I mean, when you get sick, what do they say? Get some rest. |
**Jerod Santo:** Sleep it off, yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Sleep it off. It really is the best medicine in many cases... And so many people in a go-go-go society... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right, the rat race. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, exactly. It over-emphasizes "Let me stay up all night over the weekend to learn", instead of learning incrementally, bit by bit, over time. You know, there's a couple different wars going on there... |
**Jerod Santo:** "Oh, it's so hard." |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, you've got that side that says "I can do more in these ten hours than I can do in 20 hours stretched out, because I have all the inertia and momentum and drive right now." So there's a couple of different aspects... I mean, you could argue either side really, from different angles, with differ... |
**Quincy Larson:** Yeah, I would argue the situations where you do need to go full out are less frequent than people think they are. |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. |
**Quincy Larson:** And then if you're able to judge "Is this something where I really need to plow through this, or could I potentially just knock out a chunk of this and then wake up in the morning and be fresh and finish it?" |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[32:02\] I do think one thing you keyed on was routine, which is habits... And I'm a big re-believer/believer of good routines, good habits, create good rhythms... There's a lot of things that you could do well because you wake up every day and you do it. You've built a routine. And it really sucks... |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, the danger is when you think that the plow through methodology turns into the habit. It's gonna be-- |
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