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**Adam Stacoviak:** The only way.
**Jerod Santo:** It's almost like when you get a raise - our proclivity is to then expand our lifestyle to match that budget. "I'm just gonna live up to that budget." Then when you get a pay decrease, you're screwed. It's kind of similar with sleep; if I'm gonna burn it both ends because I have this one thing I have to...
**Adam Stacoviak:** I always say if you're gonna do it and you're gonna do it with awareness...
**Jerod Santo:** Seasons...
**Adam Stacoviak:** ...do it in seasons, or very specifically. Like, "I know I'm doing this, and I'm doing it for these reasons", and it's uniquely and different. It's not because it's a norm. Do it for a season and be okay with it for a seasons. Let's say traveling more often, or being with your family more often. Tha...
**Jerod Santo:** I was never a pull-an-all-nighter kind of guy. I don't know, Quincy, back when you were in school and you had a test tomorrow, were you a "stay up all night and study" in kind of a guy?
**Quincy Larson:** No. But I would study more I guess in bursts, large bursts, than I think was optimal. Looking back, if I had school to do over again, I think I could have done a lot better with what I know now.
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. I would definitely do the procrastinate till the end and then cram... So I was a crammer as well, but I'd always opt for -- like, if it was the night before the big test, it was like "I can stay up for three more hours and cram this in, or I can just sleep right now and I'll be more fresh and I'l...
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah.
**Jerod Santo:** But I know a lot of people that would just stay up all night, studying... And I was always like "Gosh, I feel like you're brain-dead right now."
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. Well, it's almost like you forget it in the morning. You remember it then, but you'll forget it in the morning.
**Jerod Santo:** Tests are weird though, because you only have to remember it for 40 minutes, and then you can actually forget it... \[laughs\] So it sounds like it works...
**Quincy Larson:** But that's basically the purpose of the test, which is to actually help you learn it. And that's one of the problems with education...
**Jerod Santo:** Right. All testing is problematic.
**Adam Stacoviak:** Learning confirmation, yeah.
**Quincy Larson:** We just have a few tests. We should have tests every single day of class. There should be a quiz at the beginning of every day or class, just to force you to dump what's out there and kind of create this experience of having grappled with the knowledge and put it on paper. But instead, at least when ...
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. That's why I'm excited about this book from Greg McKeown; it's called Effortless. He uses this quote a lot, but it's a quote that's attributed to Abraham Lincoln... And it goes something like this - "If you give me six hours to chop down a tree, I'm gonna spend the first four sharpening the ax...
**Jerod Santo:** Oh, yeah. I've heard that one.
**Adam Stacoviak:** It's really about -- like, effortless work is because of great preparation, or great planning, a plan, period. But sometimes you can over-plan, so it's not always true.
**Jerod Santo:** Right.
**Quincy Larson:** \[35:57\] Yeah, planning can become a form of procrastination. I know lots of people who map out exactly, "Oh, I'm gonna use this resource, and I'm gonna be listening to the podcast, and I'm gonna ride my bike..." They schedule everything, and then they ultimately can't stick with the rigors of that ...
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. \[unintelligible 00:36:16.20\]
**Quincy Larson:** It's the same thing for me. I can talk about my daily rhythm, if you're curious... I have kind of like a bedtime routine where I basically -- starting at about two hours before I'm gonna go to bed I do my languages, and then I do... I've got this kind of pull-up bar in my doorway, by my fridge, and I...
**Jerod Santo:** Wow.
**Quincy Larson:** And of course, the U.S. The North-East is particularly hard with the U.S. So yeah, I'll do things like that just every day. And even though it only takes 5-10 minutes, over time I've managed to memorize huge portions of different countries and maps and stuff. And then after I do all of those things, ...
**Adam Stacoviak:** Nice.
**Quincy Larson:** So there's that kind of reward there to like -- even though I'm tired and I don't wanna do it and it's after a long day of work, that reward kind of spurs me... "Well, I don't get the reward, I don't get to play video games if I don't put in the time studying."
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. I like that one. I like to do scenarios like that where it's like "I wanna do that, but I've gotta do these things first", and that thing is a reward because I did those things, because they're unpleasant, or I don't really wanna do them, or they're arduous, or just for whatever reason it's ju...
**Jerod Santo:** Video games are so easy.
**Adam Stacoviak:** They are so easy.
**Quincy Larson:** It depends on which game you play...
**Jerod Santo:** Well, it's easy to want to play, I guess. I mean, not easy to do, but... You don't have to convince yourself, right? You're already convinced.
**Quincy Larson:** They're designed to be addictive; they're designed to draw you in.
**Jerod Santo:** That's right, that's right.
**Quincy Larson:** And the future of education is video games. If we can make courses that are as addictive as playing Doom, or playing Street Fighter or something like that, then suddenly you've got this thing that draws people in and they get really interested in.
One of my aspirations for freeCodeCamp is that someday we can have as robust a fandom as Final Fantasy games, or something like that, where people are like "Oh yeah, this is a particularly insidious challenge, and it's claimed many people have flamed out at this part."
**Adam Stacoviak:** Oh, wow...
**Quincy Larson:** Yeah, we wanna gamify it; we wanna have the equivalent of -- like, you walk into the room and there are a bunch of corpses, and those are people who have failed the exam, and haven't come back to try it again... You know? Something like that. We want that kind of vibe, and we wanna have all the RPG s...
**Adam Stacoviak:** Sure.
**Quincy Larson:** We wanna have leader boards, and anything we can make where it's kind of cooperative, instead of competitive... Those are things we wanna incorporate.
**Jerod Santo:** How many times can you respawn before you lose freeCodeCamp? "Sorry, you lost."
**Quincy Larson:** Yeah, so we did actually tinker with what I was calling Arcade Mode for a while...
**Adam Stacoviak:** Oh, really?
**Quincy Larson:** ...where you could basically just sit down and like "How much time do you have?" and it's like "Boom!" algorithm challenge after algorithm challenge, and they would just get increasingly difficult, and every time you thought you got your code right and you try to run it and the test didn't pass, you'...
**Jerod Santo:** What happened with it?
**Quincy Larson:** We've got a lot of priorities, we're 12 people...
**Jerod Santo:** Okay, so you didn't actually execute on it.
**Quincy Larson:** No, we built it, but we couldn't figure out a way to integrate it properly, and there were some issues... You know, if it's not a slam dunk--
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, make it a mode then. Just make it like an alternative mode, versus the primary path... Like, "Hey, do you wanna try the side-quest?"
**Quincy Larson:** Yeah, eventually we will.