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**Adam Stacoviak:** You said it was correlated to what? When you said that it was correlated to something, I didn't hear what you said there. What was it correlated to do |
**Lara Hogan:** I don't know, I forgot already... |
**Jerod Santo:** Career growth, I think you said? |
**Lara Hogan:** Oh, yeah, career growth. Thank you. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Gotcha. I wasn't sure if it was like a research, or something like that. I wanna make sure I earmark that in my brain, because I'll forget if not. |
**Lara Hogan:** Tons... Yeah, there's a ton of research. I mean, sponsorship is one of those things that's been studied for decades, and all of the studies show that people get further in their careers, they have more opportunities to do even more visible, valuable work, they're more likely to get a stretch assignment,... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Lara Hogan:** There's so much data that says that that's where we should be investing our energy when it comes to supporting other people as they grow... And that's also what we should be asking for when we're thinking about our own growth... Like, who are the people that know our work and might be able to vouch for ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. In some ways too it almost forces you to not be in your own way. |
**Lara Hogan:** Absolutely. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Because so often do we just not nominate ourselves, because we're like "Oh, I'm sort of an impostor here, I'm not actually that good. I don't really do this well. Some people pay attention, but let's just face it, I'm not that good." And then somebody close to you nominates you or suggests you or sp... |
**Lara Hogan:** Absolutely. I have this sneaky trick question at the beginning of my workshop on mentoring, coaching and sponsoring... And my sneaky trick question is I have everybody who's in attendance share one thing that a manager has done for them that has skyrocketed their growth. And I don't tell anybody the dif... |
And when I get to the sponsorship part of the workshop, I'm like "Guess what, everybody? Not one of you mentioned mentorship when you were describing something that a manager has done for you that has skyrocketed your growth." One person mentioned coaching, everybody else mentioned sponsorship. |
Jerod and Adam - think about a time when someone's done something for you that skyrocketed your growth. What was that? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, I'm glad you asked, because I have that earmarked for something to mention... I've shared this before on this show at least once... |
**Jerod Santo:** Thank you for asking. |
**Lara Hogan:** \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We have a show called Backstage, where Mireille Reece, Doctor of Clinical Psychology who I co-hosted Brain Science with - she asked me a lot of questions about my past. And then very specifically, back in the day when I was in the military, I was in what they call my MOS training. It's training for ... |
\[08:20\] So the drill sergeant says "Stacoviak! You're first squad leader now." Out of nowhere. Because I guess the other person was messing up. And I kind of correlate that to sponsorship. It's kind of by force, really, so I'm not sure... Maybe you can help me judge if that's truly sponsorship or not... But my drill ... |
**Lara Hogan:** Yes...! |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So I had to live up to that. And that was many years ago, and I'm still -- I think since that moment I was like "Wow, I can be a leader." |
**Lara Hogan:** That's absolutely sponsorship. That is 100% the definition of sponsorship. And that's the kind of story that I hear all the time in these workshops from people. Like, "I don't know why this person believed in me. I don't know why this person had faith in me. I didn't think I could do this thing. But the... |
**Jerod Santo:** Have you been on the receiving end of that in your career? |
**Lara Hogan:** Me? |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Lara Hogan:** Oh, yeah. Oh, my goodness... It's funny, because I also participate in the interest too, so I was trying to pick a new example... And there's just so many. I think about the difference between a time when my manager went on parental leave for six months, and at the top of the doc for like "Who to contac... |
Or, I talk about the person who was my manager - actually at the same company - when I was on deck to get a promotion to director. I was leading a web performance team \[unintelligible 00:10:12.20\] product infrastructure group, and my director was in the meeting, vouching for me, and all the other directors in the mee... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. The thing too with any sort of any opportunity - it comes with more connection. |
**Lara Hogan:** Yes... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Just blatantly. Not even like network connection, but just more connection. Whenever you're in conflict, the recipe to disperse and mitigate conflict is more connection, not less connection. So you would think that anybody in anything really would just thrive on more connection, so what you're provi... |
**Lara Hogan:** I could not nod more enthusiastically about that. And it benefits you as a sponsor. You look so good by sponsoring someone else that goes and kills it on whatever they're working on. And you're building a new leadership bench. The only way that your organization - your team, or whatever - is gonna survi... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, the way I discovered some of your work was through your book, obviously, Resilient Management, and you wrote an excerpt for the A List Apart website, which we're super-huge fans of in like forever, basically. |
**Lara Hogan:** Mm-hm. Same. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** My entire career has been like "If A List Apart showcases it, it's awesome stuff." But you wrote an excerpt there... And I also wanna mention that you voiced your own book, which was super-cool, by the way. I didn't expect that, and then I'm like, "Oh, that's really cool." |
**Lara Hogan:** \[12:17\] \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** But I've read that, and it kind of frameworks a lot of this - leaders, managers, you've got the idea of mentoring, coaching, sponsoring, and then delivering feedback. It's sort of like all the different hats you wear as a manager. How did you come up with this framework? Was it something you observe... |
**Lara Hogan:** Yeah, so I learned a lot of what I know today from this person Paloma Medina. She was the Etsy learning and development director there. So basically everything that I talk about today, I learned in some way or was influenced in some way by Paloma's work. |
When it comes to mentoring and coaching, two of the skills, I've definitely learned the difference between those from here. But really, I started getting interested in sponsorship when I was trying to help the staff engineering group at Etsy start to add people who were not meant to the group. I was trying to figure ou... |
I started to realize, if I wanted to try to enact change within this staff engineering cohort, I needed to help these folks understand the difference between the two things. Understand that what they were doing was taking members of minoritized communities out to coffee to teach them what they know, but that's not the ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. That's a challenging position to be in too, sponsoring folks. It's almost like "Do they need my help? Maybe..." Back to that self-doubt, potentially, or the impostor - do they need my help? Maybe they just need my advice. They didn't even ask for it. Should I even give it? |
**Lara Hogan:** Right, right. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You almost to some degree can be paralyzed by the ability, but I guess if you know you can help somebody, you know you can help somebody. |
**Lara Hogan:** Right. There's a few there, of - what if this person fails at the thing that I'm sponsoring them for? And that's real, that's valid. There's always that risk. But then what I try to do is coach people through like "Okay, what happens? Let's play that out." Like, what's the worst possible scenario? And t... |
There's a lot to unpack there, but it's a reasonable fear, and I want to make sure people understand that that's not an abnormal one, but it's totally surmountable. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. Because when you vouch for somebody, you're lending your reputation. And so if they fail, then your reputation is harmed, and the next time somebody turns to you for advice -- maybe they don't turn to you anymore, because they're like "Well, you let me down the last time." I like what you said th... |
**Lara Hogan:** \[15:59\] And that might also be advice, but it's really important to ask the person what they need, rather than just assuming that what they need is still more of your advice, because that may not be it. One of my most mind-blowing moments was realizing that what someone needed was access to a meeting ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. The one shadow I can see happen -- well, actually, I got to witness it first-hand was when I sat down with Sid Sijbrandij from GitLab, and he is die-hard on his shadows going everywhere. |
**Lara Hogan:** Nice. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So my show, Founders Talk, is really one-on-one, and so we sell it as one-on-one. So when you have more than one in the room, it just can kind of put some performance operations there, potentially; like, you might perform because someone else is there, or act a certain way... |
**Jerod Santo:** It changes the vibe. |
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