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**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, it can really change the dynamics. So as a believer in those dynamics and the one-on-one, I wasn't trying to advocate that they shouldn't be there, but just for the reasons of the show and how we did it... And I understood where they were coming from, the shadows came anyways, and that was tot... |
**Lara Hogan:** Absolutely. Absolutely. And you get to see so many different ways that leadership manifests. That's something else I think a lot about, is there's not just one way to be a leader, and to be able to have access to a diverse group of leaders shows you all of the different ways that you might wanna hone yo... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Lara Hogan:** That's cool. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You can see a new side of that person too, and gain - or probably lose - some respect from, depending on how you act... |
**Lara Hogan:** There's always that risk... \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, there is some risk there, but one thing I love particularly about Sid is that he seems to be the same person no matter where he's at. He seems to showcase the same values... And that could be a filter, I don't know, because I only really see him in, I suppose, professional spaces - and I've me... |
**Lara Hogan:** Totally. I talk a lot about the idea of our default approach in a lot of my workshops and coaching sessions, just because we all do have a default approach to leadership... How it looks to other people, it's a default approach. But it's really important to switch it up when the context calls for it, so ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** So you've mentioned the difference between sponsorship, mentorship and coaching... I wanna dive into the coaching bit a little bit, but put a pin in that first, because you're also talking management and leadership, and I wonder if you differentiate those two, or if you don't. And if so, what are the d... |
**Lara Hogan:** \[19:49\] Great question. What a time, you know honor tradition of trying to define these two very broad, mixed-up categories... \[laughter\] Honestly, just like mentoring and coaching tend to also be really conflated a lot of the time. I do find a distinction between them a lot, but just like a square ... |
I think a lot about facilitators in meetings. Someone who's a facilitator of a meeting - they may not be managing anybody, they may not be managing the content, but they're probably leading the meeting in a way, even if they don't have any interest in what's happening. That's a pretty clear distinction to me. Every com... |
When I talk about management, I talk about it in terms of "Are you supporting other people as they grow?" That actually applies to people who are not managers too, which is why I like to use the definition of management instead, that way I can say "Okay, these skills may apply to you, whether or not you have technical ... |
**Jerod Santo:** Gotcha. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Do you think a leader is more on like the inspiration side of things than the doing of the details/tasks thing? Because management seems to be task-based(ish), and then leadership seems to be more visionary, that kind of way, where you're sort of inspiring greatness in others, or to go or believe in... |
**Lara Hogan:** Right. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So that seems to be more leadership. Maybe that's mainly how I break it down - it seems more like inspire vs. tasks, and do, and organization. |
**Jerod Santo:** Versus require. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** What did you say |
**Jerod Santo:** Oh, I said inspire vs. require, just because it rhymed. Sorry. |
**Lara Hogan:** \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So that was actually what I was gonna say, but I thought it was a little too cliche... Inspire, require... |
**Lara Hogan:** \[laughs\] That's hilarious... |
**Jerod Santo:** I'm here for you... |
**Lara Hogan:** Mind-melt. So actually, I've worked with a lot of managers that do that, and that's actually a part of their job. They can't get everybody in a row in the same direction unless they do that, too. And leaders often have a lot of tactical responsibilities. So I actually more think of it as a spectrum betw... |
My default is actually on the empowerment end. In the absence of context, I will ask everybody a million open coaching questions, which - Jerod, I know you wanna talk about coaching... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Lara Hogan:** But that doesn't always work. Sometimes you need to be directive. Sometimes you need to mandate a desk move. Sometimes you need to tell someone what their job is. Sometimes you need to give feedback that's not coaching, but instead it's like "I need you to do this thing right now." That's directive. Aga... |
So again, based on the circumstance, based on the situation, we all have a default, but that default won't be useful to us in all circumstances. Strong leaders and strong managers need to know when to switch up their approach based on the given circumstances. So I would argue that managers and leaders both have to do t... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I like that you called it a spectrum, honestly, because I almost feel like you can take a test and see where you land on that... |
**Lara Hogan:** Yeah... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You can even evaluate the thing you're doing currently, and like "Which direction is this?" Is it sort of center in the spectrum, or...? |
**Lara Hogan:** Yeah, in one of my workshops we go through that. I give a bunch of example scenarios... I actually have people draw the spectrum and mark on the line where they would end up based on the scenario, like "You've found out that one of your direct reports is being named to your other teammates in a meeting.... |
**Jerod Santo:** At the same time? |
**Lara Hogan:** \[24:02\] Yeah. Some people are really close together in where they landed, some people are all over the place. And again, I think it's just a way to say, we have to adapt based on the circumstance. \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** That sounds fun. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's interesting. |
**Lara Hogan:** We have fun. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, I think it's kind of theory, to some degree, where do you land... |
**Lara Hogan:** Yes. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So you have to understand the mechanics behind things and the frameworks behind things to maybe even determine that... |
**Lara Hogan:** Oh, yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And I guess you could somewhat guess too, if you weren't really skilled in the theory and the details behind things... But it really does give you an idea of like "Okay, this is where I'm defaulting to", as you've said a few times. "Maybe that's not a good place to default to, but it's okay. It's th... |
**Lara Hogan:** Right, exactly. Let's be honest. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** If you're defaulting and you're erring on the side of like "Well, that's not actually optimistic or that's not a good way to be", then you've gotta change. But at least you know where you're at. |
**Lara Hogan:** Yes. You've gotta be honest about it. And also be honest about where that default is most successful. One of the circumstances - what's the environment in which your default way of operating works best? That way you can start to think about "Okay, now when are the times when I might need to switch it up... |
**Break**: \[25:18\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So Lara, we mentioned your excerpt from your book, Resilient Management, on A List Apart. I love that. And that's kind of where I saw this framework... I guess - full disclosure, I haven't read your book in completion. I have listened to some of it, to give myself a little pat on the back, but... Yo... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] Doing her a favor... "I listened to a little bit of it..." |
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