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**Lara Hogan:** One hundred percent. |
**Jerod Santo:** So dive more into delivering feedback... Because I think this is something that we all do, and we all don't always do well. You mentioned actionable... |
**Lara Hogan:** Specific... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[35:55\] Specific... Is there any other heuristics of like "Here's how to give good feedback versus not so good"? |
**Lara Hogan:** Oh, yeah. I mean, I can give an additional whole episode just about feedback... \[laughter\] Originally, the chapter in the book had a whole different, separate feedback chapter, and then I started to realize it actually relates to mentoring, coaching and sponsoring, because we can do those three things... |
So when I think about good feedback, a lot of the way that I think about it derives from SBI (Situation, Behavior, Impact), that framework. Situation - we get people to talk about the facts. What's my observation of the behavior I'm giving feedback on? Just the facts means not my assumptions, not my judgments... I'm tr... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Lara Hogan:** A lot of how I think about feedback has to do with trying to keep that amygdala chilled out and keep our prefrontal cortex, the rational, logical, practical part of our brain online. |
So just the facts means let's make sure that this person's amygdala is like "Yeah, that's true. That's all happening. What you described is real, and I can attest that that is a real thing." So start with the observation. |
Next though we can talk about the impact that this person's behavior has had. Traditionally, we've been taught to frame the impact, the behavior based on what we as the feedback giver care about. Let's say someone's writing really terse emails to me... I'm mad that all the time they write 4-5 words, it's a waste of my ... |
In the example of the person writing really terse emails, they probably care about getting this product done on time. So I might say "Hey listen, when you send me emails of this length, I need to respond and ask for more information, which adds time to the process, which means that the thing you wanna have done takes t... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Lara Hogan:** It's really hard to put ourselves in their shoes, but again, we wanna keep their amygdala chilled out and their PFC online. So by describing it in terms of what they care about is really, really useful. |
And then the final thing I like to do is close with an open coaching question. Again, we've been taught to make a request, like "Therefore, could you please send longer emails?" But if you have hit the nail on the head with the facts, they're on board, and you've also hit the nail on the head with what they care about,... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Absolutely, yeah. |
**Lara Hogan:** Do any of the open coaching questions and see what that does for your feedback conversations, and hopefully you are lowering the chances of an amygdala hijack, of a fight-or-flight response happening in that feedback conversation. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, that could be the bomb going off, like "Oh, come on now." And the next thing you know you're fighting, there's a conflict instead of a resolution, which - you really want the resolution... |
**Lara Hogan:** They've shut down... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, they've shut down... There's no more communication, there's no more connection... |
**Lara Hogan:** No one wins. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, exactly. I like that, that you lead with what you assume though what they're optimizing for. You're assuming because of certain observations - the length of the email, their characteristics, their behavior in meetings - that they care about time. |
**Lara Hogan:** Right. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So you're sort of capitalizing on that and saying "If you really care about time, here's how we can--" |
**Jerod Santo:** ...spend less of it. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** "...here's the challenge we have together. Here's how it impacts you and me." |
**Jerod Santo:** \[40:05\] Yeah, you're finding common ground as well. |
**Lara Hogan:** Absolutely. And you might get it wrong. You might get the impact part wrong. You may totally mistake what they actually care about... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Lara Hogan:** ...in which case you're gonna have to try again, but only after you do some more digging. And if you do this prework upfront, you can spend time asking questions about what they're optimizing for, or what's most on their mind, what are they focused on the most right now, or what's worrying them, what's ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And you're also kind of identifying the reward, which is kind of leading into the habit loop even... |
**Lara Hogan:** Totally. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Because the habit is the email, and the habit is the length or lack of length of the email... So the reward really is like "Okay, I get back to work." But maybe you shift the reward and say "Okay, you get back to work, but we delay shipping because X." |
**Lara Hogan:** "But wait..." \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So you're sort of like identifying their reward, or I suppose the team's reward. There's a lot of psychology really in this process. |
**Lara Hogan:** Oh, yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's something I'm learning more and more... Especially as we look at your chapter titles, "Setting clear expectations. Communicate effectively" and then "Building resiliency." That's a lot of things that happens from a psychologist to a patient in therapy; it's very much a lot of this. When did y... |
**Lara Hogan:** Totally. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Where did you dig? |
**Lara Hogan:** I can tie all this, again, back to that same person Paloma Medina at Etsy, who has done a lot of research on organizational psychology, but also just like the neuroscience behind why humans behave the way that they do. |
Since she's worked at Etsy, she's done a number of incredible things, including starting a shop about productivity tools for our brains and the neuroscience behind productivity at work, psychological safety - all of these things. She's just incredible. So a lot of what I initially learned was from her. And honestly, li... |
One of the things that she taught me very early on was this framework, this acronym she calls BICEPS. And BICEPS stands for the six core needs that humans have at work. And again, this is all neuroscience, but also anthropology, and a lot of the social sciences trying to study why do humans behave the way that they do,... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. How about any particular books that you've read recently? |
**Lara Hogan:** Absolutely. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I can mention for me Atomic Habits has been so on my prefrontal cortex... I'm thinking about it a lot; I'm always thinking about habits, and habit loops, and just how the 1% improvement can change things. I'm curious what you're reading. |
**Lara Hogan:** A go-to is always "Switch: How to change things when change is hard" by Chip and Dan Heath. It's all about "How do I influence change in any context if I don't have power or authority or control over the situation itself?" They include a bunch of studies, a bunch of anecdotes, real case studies about ho... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[44:04\] Yeah, I know the slogan. I live there. |
**Lara Hogan:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** Don't mess with Texas. |
**Lara Hogan:** Do you know where it came from? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** No. |
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